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| Posted by: Perm Dude
- [151134129] Fri, Dec 12, 2008, 22:06
I wanted to pull out the auto bailout stuff into a different thread, since it is fundamentally different than the Wall Street bailout talk.
GM to temporarily close 20 plants.
In addition, it is moving up the closing date of its SUV plants in Janesville WI and Moraine, OH to December 23rd. Merry Christmas. The original closing dates were sometime in 2010.
Where this might hurt is state unemployment benefits, particularly Rust Belt states. |
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| | | 3 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sat, Dec 13, 2008, 13:55
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Looks like the sinking of the auto bailout bill was a result of the GOP targetting unions.
Political payback. That's what it came down to.
Not to side with the GOP but something does need to be done about the union contracts.
On top of all the other problems Detroit has...like poor quality products, they are also at a huge cost disadvantage to their Japanese competitors here in the United States.
According to Forbes:
Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)
GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)
Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)
Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)
* Note these wages include all compensation paid out including retirement and health care benifits.
According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).
Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.
link
So it's not really fair to imply this compensation issue is a purely political argument. A fair and reasonable person could say 48 dollars a year is fine for this type work, $70 is excessive...right?
A counter argument is management wages should be lowered also...fine. Something needs to be done these companies are not competitive and are about to go bankrupt.
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| | | 4 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sat, Dec 13, 2008, 14:00
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PD the reference about Viter was vague. Was he busted with a prostitute?
If so is the UAW saying that because he was arrested with a prostitute, he should not be able to question the wages paid to the workers in a bankrupt business model?
Does the comparison even make sense? Or was he just trying to F with Vitter because he doesn't like Vitters position?
For the record I have no idea who Vitter is. (Sorry I'm out of the loop).
I'm just curious why you thought it was relevant or important to post what was obviously a personal attack that was related to the core issue.
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| | | 5 | Madman
ID: 81110118 Sat, Dec 13, 2008, 14:20
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I'm just curious why you thought it was relevant or important to post what was obviously a personal attack that was related to the core issue.
It's clear: Democrats and the UAW have no economic argument, so they are employing attack-the-messenger tactics. They know that to save GM equity holders and obsolete union contracts that they have to find something to distract everyone. A pre-packaged pseudo-bankruptcy is the way to go; all other options flush good taxpayer money down the drain.
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| | | 6 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 13, 2008, 14:34
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Political payback. That's what it came down to. - PD
We could call it raising the stupidity tax. You've never met a tax hike you didn't like, have you?
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| | | 7 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sat, Dec 13, 2008, 15:05
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Seeing my quote in Madman's comment section...
I'm just curious why you thought it was relevant or important to post what was obviously a personal attack that was related to the core issue.
Should have said that was NOT related to the core issue.
Seriously though I am so sick and tired of Republicans this, Democrats that while this country is going down the toilet.
There's plenty of blame to go around to both parties, plenty. Neither party knows their head from their backside.
Put aside all the partisan debate though, and an honest person has to admit the current wage structure is not sustainable for an economically viable company.
Why should the working poor bailout these people making 70+ dollars and hour??? The model is broken and needs to be fixed, that includes reducing UAW wages, reducing management wages and firing the idiot management players who have run this thing down a hole.
If the UAW doesn't like reduction of wages from 70+ an hour to 48 and hour then let the flippin' ship sink into bankruptcy and then we can renegotiate realistic contracts under bankruptcy reorganization. Including management salaries.
Part of the reason Detroit cars can't compete with the Japanese is they have no dollars left over to innovate.
All that 15 billion dollars will do is prolong the inevitable a few months if wages aren't reduced.
PD did you honestly believe what you said in your initial post?
I'll remind you, I've never voted for a single Republican in my life.
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| | | 8 | Perm Dude
ID: 401155139 Sat, Dec 13, 2008, 19:49
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Democrats and the UAW have no economic argument...
Perhaps being a Southern Republican has made you conflate what a union rep says with "Democrats" in general. Or Obama in particular. Though in the other thread you seem to insist that Obama wants to screw over the unions. You're mixing up your talking points here.
It does need to be said that Southern Republican Senators, who are against the bailout not on economic grounds but because they perceive it will benefit unions, have made no real effort to portray their opposition on the economic grounds Madman insists that the "Democrats" are missing from their side.
Personally, I am against the bailout package the auto makers want for a number of reasons, but mostly because management has made little to no effort at demonstrating that they can change what got them in trouble in the first place. Combine this with Bush's insistence that the unions (who already have expressed willingness to renegotiate union contracts) agree to "preconditions" in order for talks to move forward and you begin to see why Bush's insistence on diplomatic preconditions in foreign policy has worked so well for the country.
#4: That's right. In two jurisdictions, it seems.
#6: No, it is political payback. They don't like unions, and so will not help an industry with historic high-union membership for that reason.
In my opinion there are plenty of reasons not to go along with an auto bailout (see above). But Republicans simply cannot help themselves, it seems, in making this about politics rather than about economics. It is like Republican brains in Washington simply cannot deal with long compound sentences and economic details.
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| | | 9 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 00:59
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PD Personally, I am against the bailout package the auto makers want for a number of reasons, but mostly because management has made little to no effort at demonstrating that they can change what got them in trouble in the first place.
Well we agree on this, what got them into trouble in the first place, among other things, is excessive wages. Unless they can reduce labor costs I don't think there is any point in a bailout.
Another problem is their lack quality new product development and innovation but how do you develop when there is no money left over for research after payroll?
PD That's right. In two jurisdictions, it seems.
Jeez PD I am embarrassed for you. What does the fact this guy saw a prostitute have to do with the car bailout debate? Is this your puritanical side coming out?
With Spitzer he was pushing laws and prosecuting people for the very "crime" he was committing at the same time. In fact he built his political career at least in part on prosecuting vigorously prostitution.
How are you forwarding the auto bailout debate by repeating gossip about an opponent of the bail out when the reported infraction doesn't have anything to do with the topic of the debate?
Pandering of the worst kind.
No, it is political payback. They don't like unions, and so will not help an industry with historic high-union membership for that reason.
How can anyone debate you when you've already made up your mind?
We know these facts.
1) In 2006 the average hourly wage paid out by the big three was over $70 an hour. (Including all benefits)
2) Their Japanese competitors, in their USA plants are paying $48.00.
Yet you insist on arguing that it's not possible that a politician can make a fair point that in order for the big 3 to compete, and be a viable business long into the future without more bailouts, they need to reduce labor costs.
The big 3 have had economic problems long before the current crisis and this moment in time is just the culmination of those problems.
Finally we know that I am not a Republican, I have never in my life voted for a Republican, I'm not basing my opinion on political payback. I just think $48.00 an hour is a fair wage for this work when the $70.00 an hour is going bankrupt.
So if I believe that, based on the logic of the economic numbers, why can't a politician have the same view if people like you will only insist it's all about political payback?
How can we even debate the issue, if you are faced with these numbers and insist a politician couldn't possibly honestly believe the wages are excessive?
One last question PD. Yes or no.
Do you think $48.00 an hour, $96,000 a year (This number includes benefits and retirement) is a fair wage for working in a car plant? Or are those people under paid?
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| | | 10 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 03:07
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That $70 some-odd dollar figure is nonsense. They are adding in all the past pension and health benefits from retirees long-gone-by.
The number that includes salary pension and health insurance for a current worker is more in the area of $55.
But that wouldn't generate the anti-union outrage.
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| | | 11 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 05:44
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It's not nonsense Bili.
It's based on the per hour labor cost per person working and factoring in, as I stated * these wages include all compensation paid out including retirement and health care benefits.
It's real money, it had to be paid to make the cars.
So the study took all labor costs for the year 2006 including hourly wages, benefits and retirement costs paid out in that 12 month period. It then divided that number by man hours worked.
This is the labor cost per hour to make cars. Why shouldn't retirement benefits be factored in? It's part of their negotiated pay.
Why is it nonsense to leave in the part of the contract, that the UAW negotiated?
The only reason it is nonsense is to someone looking at what a large number it is and not liking what they see.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan's number were factored exactly the same way.
As much as anything the point of the study is to show what a large competitive disadvantage the big 3 automakers are to their Japanese competitors (In the USA) These are Japanese plants in the USA not Japan.
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| | | 12 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 05:58
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Bili to further the point The argument isn't that the auto workers are over paid in real wages.
The criticism that I have been hearing for years is that what is causing such high labor costs at the auto companies is the extremely generous retirement benefits negotiated in the UAW contract.
The very fact you declared the $70 number nonsense just proves the point.
Shame on the management in charge of the companies at the time who approved the contracts. I even remember hearing back at the time they were passed how outrageous the concessions were and the auto makers would never remain solvent given these terms.
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| | | 13 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 08:16
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They are adding in all the past pension and health benefits from retirees long-gone-by.
It's only the total retirement payments that were made during the 2006 12 month period. Yes all workers in the past, what the heck do you think retirement benefits means?
When I said it included hourly pay, health benefits and retirement benefits what else could it mean, the current workers aren't retired yet. It's a snap shot of the cost of the total labor to the company, per hour per person working.
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| | | 14 | Perm Dude
ID: 431130148 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 09:39
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Debunking the myth of the exceedingly well-paid autoworker
This article, I think, lays out bili's argument as well. It is only by adding in other people's benefits that we get the $70/hour figure.
This is like saying "workers make $150/hour, if you include retirees, management salaries and bonuses, and some overhead costs."
You're a serious student of business, nerve. How can you possibly let yourself get away with cramming together different costs in order to lay the blame (mostly) at the fee of current workers, who average (including benefits) about $38/hour each?
I mentioned in another thread that the Big Three are laboring under huge retiree costs (including health care costs), brought about because of past union contracts. So why do we blame current workers for this? Or unions, who have shown a willingness to cut pay and benefits to keep their jobs?
Yes, these are all real costs. But they arise for different reasons and you can't pin these all on current workers. Certainly not if you are looking to problem solve.
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| | | 15 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 10:12
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It's nonsense because you are now comparing apples and oranges. Toyota and Nissan haven't been around nearly as long as the big 3, so their retirement benefits are of course going to be less. If you want a dishonest debate, then fine. I won't be participating in it, however.
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| | | 16 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 11:22
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First of all PD you link to an article that states...
Let's start with the fact that it's not $70 per hour in wages.
Uhh I never said it was.
Then they go on to say average wages for workers at Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors were just $28 per hour as of 2007.
a fact that I don't deny, nor that I wish to see reduced.
The amazing thing about the 70 per hour labor costs is how much the excessive benefits add.
Bili, how could the cost of retirement be added into the "hourly cost of current labor" unless it was including past retires payout for 2006. That would seem obvious.
Again, the study added together all be company costs for UAW wages, benefit costs and retirement costs. Then they took the total of all these numbers, "labor costs" and divided it by the number of hours work that year to arrive at the hourly cost of labor.
Why should retirement costs not be counted as a labor cost when they are part of the labor compensation for the company?
I worked for a company 18 years and get ZERO retirement accept for the pittance they put aside and handed me when I left. Therefore the cost of labor is much higher at a company with these huge retirement costs.
The point isn't playing tricks to arrive at the number, the point is not wrapping your head around the point the study is trying to make.
I clearly said in my first post: Note these wages include all compensation paid out including retirement and health care benifits
I read the whole article, and it implies there are changes to the compensation in the future, and the article applauds this...well that's exactly what I was saying needs to happen NOW.
Bili it doesn't matter why the number is higher 70 compared to 48 (i.e. more retirees). What matters is it's makes the big 3 uncompetitive. They are going bankrupt and were in very bad shape well before the current economic crisis. The stock chart doesn't look pretty from 2000 on even while the rest of the market was recovering.
Apparently even the UAW agrees with the benefits compensation being high since they have agreed to reductions (According to PD's article) that won't take place until 2010...meanwhile the companies are going bankrupt.
If the illustration of the 70 dollar "cost" per hour isn't a valid example of why the big 3 have a problem, then why have the UAW members agreed to a future reduction?
The point is this is needed now. If not the tax payer will bail them out and it will last a few months and they will be back for more because they are burning cash so fast now.
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| | | 17 | sarge33rd
ID: 5011161410 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 11:29
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OK, first off...we need to cease with the BS claim that the domestics put out a product lacking in quality:
JD Power
Large, Multi=Purpose Vehicles:
Toyota Sequoia nr1 Nrs 2,3 and 4 are GM products Nr5 is Ford
Mid-size car
Nrs 1 thru 5 are domestic from the Big 3
Mid-Size Premium Car
Cadillac is nr4 ahead of Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes, etc etc
Compact Car
Nrs 1, 2 and 3 are domestic from the Big 3
Those are "Initial Quality". Below, are Reliability Ratings:
Compact Car
1, 2, 3 and 4 are Domestic, ahead of the evr reliable Honda and Toyota
Mid-size car
1,2,3,4,5 and 6...are domestic from the Big 3
Mid-Size Premium Car
Cadillac in at nr4
Sub-Compact
Nr1...Chevy
So could we please argue this topic on the merit of fact, and not marketing campaigns? The truth of the matter, is that the Big 3 are putting out some of the BEST gddm vehicles on the planet, but the American population still buys into the erroneous marketing claims of superior reliability on the part of the Japanese auto makers.
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| | | 18 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 11:43
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So could we please argue this topic on the merit of fact, and not marketing campaigns? The truth of the matter, is that the Big 3 are putting out some of the BEST gddm vehicles on the planet, but the American population still buys into the erroneous marketing claims of superior reliability on the part of the Japanese auto makers.
My perception of Japanese quality has nothing to do with marketing claims, it has to do with the 1 Miata, and 2 Hondas I've owned that needed virtually zero repairs, even though I bought them used and even though I drove them many miles.
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| | | 19 | jedman Dude
ID: 315192219 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 12:07
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I have driven a Chevy Impala since 2004 and I love it. Before that I had an Avalanche and Tahoe and they were great cars. I've had a Taurus and a Ranger pickup. I really like all of them. We had a family Suburban for years and we still have it with over 200,000 miles on it. I think it's the best family car ever made. My wife drives a Toyota Highlander. I don't like it that much because it's a little small for me, but it is wonderful for her and she loves it. I agree with Sarge that the quality issue isn't a deciding factor for me. Everybody associated with the Big 3, from the CEO to the janitor has to be willing to cut back dramatically on wages and benefits immediately IMHO. I don't think anybody associated with them has any right to be bargaining for much. They weren't profitable and successful the last years when the economy was going better and they won't make it now when things suck. It just slays me that everybody's attitude isn't I'll do whatever it takes to turn things around. It's like they are all in denial that there is a serious problem and are so confident that the government will give them what they want that they aren't dealing in reality.
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| | | 20 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 12:10
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Sarge: OK, first off...we need to cease with the BS claim that the domestics put out a product lacking in quality:
Nerveclinic: On top of all the other problems Detroit has...like poor quality products
Part of the reason Detroit cars can't compete with the Japanese is they have no dollars left over to innovate.
I have to go with Sarge on this one. This morning I ran my errands in my rear wheel drive car on icy roads in the suburbs of Chicago. I hit a skid point and my limited slip differential kicked in and kept me from spinning off into the abyss. On my way home from work this past week I saw numerous cars on the side of the road. My "dangerous" rear wheel drive car was fine because of the limited slip and traction control. How is that not innovation?
Nevermind that while this was going on I was listening to the Sirius radio in my car where I could choose between a few hundred radio stations and TV broadcasts (CNBC being a fav) from around the world.
My wife's car is the SUV; a 2004 Dodge Durango. We drove to her parents for Thanksgiving and my kid enjoyed Ratatouille on the DVD player while the heater (which must be nuclear powered I'm convinced) warmed up the entire 8 passenger car inside of 6 minutes. Did I mention the car was parked outside making the heater feat even more astonishing? Then if you listen to the regular factory installed radio in that car and hit the "MSG" button, you'll know the name of the song playing including the artist. That's pretty cool.
I'm not saying that Japanese cars are crap, but American ones are nothing to laugh at.
As I see it the problems are the payscale, dealer saturation, and the legacy costs like pensions.
? for Sarge (or anyone else in the know): Why don't dealerships go to a JIT inventory type system? I imagine all those cars on the lot cost a ton to just sit there. Why not test pilot a few dealerships where there are three or four of each type so folks can test drive them and then they can order the car from the factory? I can see why there's a ton of used cars, but at least the number of new ones could be trimmed down.
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| | | 21 | sarge33rd
ID: 5011161410 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 12:10
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understood NC, but from your post 3:
On top of all the other problems Detroit has...like poor quality products,...
Could you expplain to me, how owning a Mazda or a Honda; puts you in a position to declare that some other manufacturer has a "poor quality product"? Seems to me, the only ones that positions you speak on, are the Mazda and the Honda. Afterall, if I've never owned an Infiniti (which I haven't), I'm really not the best person to talk to ABOUT an Infiniti. Right?
Point being, we here like to think ourselves a bit above the norm in our research, debate and knowledge. So lets act the part, and not let unfounded 'perception' (marketing or otherwise), to form the basis for our claims.
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| | | 22 | sarge33rd
ID: 5011161410 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 12:43
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Inventory for a dealership, is one of the key elements that makes it damn difficult to run one profitably.
1st issue, is the lead time. When an auto dealer places an order for say, 6 new Chevy Impalas, 2 Red, 2 Blue, 1 White, 1 Black...and then they equip those cars with various combinations of factory setups/options.....it will be 12-14 weeks before they are built and ready to ship from the factory.
Dealerships in many instances, have far too little control over their inventories. Toyota and Honda for ex, being amongst the WORST manufacturers out there, in terms of dealer support. Both use an allocation method of inventory distribution; wherein the manufacturer essentially TELLS the dealer what they are getting and when they are getting it. (There is some degree of latitude here, but trust me...it is a small degree.)
When you order an inventory, where in 12 pieces has an expense hit of 250k or more, and you combine that with a market wherein demand is exceptionally difficult to gauge 4-6 months in advance; and JIT doesnt work. It probably would, if we went back to the original factory model of Henry Ford, and where the consumer could have "any color they want, as long as they want black".
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| | | 23 | sarge33rd
ID: 5011161410 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 12:57
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Factcheck.org on the $70/hr thing
partial quote:
Do auto workers really make more than $70 per hour?
How much does a UAW member make at a domestic auto plant? Various sites have cited the figure at an average of seventy-three dollars an hour (The Heritage Foundation). Keith Olbermann says that the figure is actually at twenty-eight before benefits, which only add ten dollars to the amount. Other sources indicate that Toyota workers (who are not unionized) made more last year after profit sharing was calculated. So clear it up for us. What's the real bottom line?
No. That figure is derived from what the auto companies pay in wages, health, retirement and other benefits, and includes the cost of providing benefits to retirees. A report from the conservative Heritage Foundation, opposing the auto industry bailout, said that members of the United Auto Workers union "earn $75 an hour in wages and benefits – almost triple the earnings of the average private sector worker." Later in the report, it's phrased this way: "The vast majority of UAW workers in Detroit today still earn $75 an hour."
That figure has caught hold with some conservatives, and it seeps into media coverage from time to time as well. A few examples: At a Nov. 19 House Financial Services Committee hearing on a possible bailout for the auto industry, Alabama Republican Rep. Spencer Bachus said, "Even with recent changes, the average hourly wage at General Motors is still $75 an hour. ..." Two of his GOP colleagues on the panel made similar statements. And in a Nov. 18 column in the New York Times, business reporter Andrew Ross Sorkin wrote, "At GM, as of 2007, the average worker was paid about $70 an hour, including health care and pension costs."
The problem is, that's just not true. The automakers say that the average wage earned by its unionized workers is about $29 per hour. So how does that climb to more than $70? Add in benefits: life insurance, health care, pension and so on. But not just the benefits that the current workers actually receive – after all, it's pretty rare for the value of a benefits package to add up to more than wages paid, even with a really, really good health plan in place. What's causing the number to balloon is the cost of providing benefits to tens of thousands of retired auto workers and their surviving spouses.
The automakers arrived at the $70+ figure by adding up all the costs associated with providing wages and benefits to current and retired workers and dividing the total by the number of hours worked by current employees.
Labor Costs Aren't the Same as Wages Earned
The result is the per-hour labor cost to the automakers, which is very different from "pay" or "wages" or even "wages and benefits" earned by their workers. As David Leonhardt pointed out in the New York Times (countering, in a sense, the earlier piece by Sorkin), the average GM, Ford and Chrysler worker receives compensation – wages, bonuses, overtime and paid time off – of about $40 an hour. Add in benefits such as health insurance and pensions and you get to about $55. Another $15 or so in benefits to retirees (known as "legacy costs") brings the number to roughly $70.
That last figure accounts for the biggest difference between labor costs of the Big Two and a Half and those of the "transplants," as foreign carmakers with manufacturing facilities on U.S. soil are called. Ford, in material it submitted to Congress for hearings this month (see "Congressional Submission Appendix (PPT)"), estimated the transplants' legacy costs at about $3 per hour, a number that has less to do with the level of benefits paid than it does with the fact that the transplants don't have many retirees yet, according to economist Kristin Dziczek of the Center for Automotive Research.
The Ford chart also estimates that, as a result of a historic 2007 labor agreement with the UAW, the legacy costs of the U.S. automakers are expected to fall – to about $3 per hour. That's because the deal calls for a new voluntary employee beneficiary association (or VEBA), a seldom-used 100-year-old tax loophole. A VEBA is a tax-exempt trust that can be used to fund almost any sort of employee benefit, but they are most commonly used to pay for health care expenses.
In an innovative twist, the UAW and Detroit negotiated a VEBA to cover the health care expenses of retired autoworkers. Under the terms of the agreement, GM, Ford and Chrysler were to contribute $30 billion, $13 billion and $9 billion, respectively, to a trust fund to be managed by the union. The UAW would then use the income from the VEBA to cover retiree medical expenses. The agreement would protect retirees’ health care benefits in the event of company bankruptcy, while allowing the automakers to shed the bulk of their legacy costs.
When the new agreement is fully implemented, which should happen in 2010, the U.S. automakers would still bear labor costs of about $9 per hour more than Toyota, but that's far better than the current gap. The 2007 agreement also calls for a new two-tier wage structure and other concessions from workers.
As for whether Toyota workers earn more than employees of U.S. domestic automakers: In 2006, at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, workers averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members at Ford, General Motors and Daimler Chrylser, according to the Detroit Free Press. The difference was due to profit-sharing bonuses; Detroit's workers aren't getting many of those these days because, well, there's really nothing to share. The transplants don't give out much data, however, so it's hard to tell if this pattern is continuing or even if it applied to all Toyota plants in 2006.
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| | | 24 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 13:10
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Could you expplain to me, how owning a Mazda or a Honda; puts you in a position to declare that some other manufacturer has a "poor quality product"?
It doesn't you are right. I haven't really followed American cars for a number of years. If you guys know your stuff and assure me they are that much better I will take your advice on the subject. Good to hear.
I really agree with the sentiment in Jedman's post. The sacrifice needs to go all around including big concessions from management. I thought Jedman summed it up well.
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| | | 25 | jedman Dude
ID: 315192219 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 15:34
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If the labor costs are closer to $50 than $70, that makes me want to bail them out even less. That tells me that management is even worse than thought and all the money in the world won't fix things under the same regimes.
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| | | 26 | sarge33rd
ID: 5011161410 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 15:58
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personally, I have no qualms with the notion of a "car czar", provided its a business position reporting TO the Govt and not a govt position.
That these corporate CEOs and upper managment personnel have had it FAR too cushy for FAR too long, I think goes without argument.
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| | | 27 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 16:45
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That these corporate CEOs and upper managment personnel have had it FAR too cushy for FAR too long, I think goes without argument.
That goes for lots of CEO's not just the auto business, at least as far as compensation goes.
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| | | 28 | jedman Dude
ID: 315192219 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 16:48
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How about a "car czar" committee? Made up of successful businessmen and turn around guys, not afraid to use the hatchet. Totally agree it should be somebody outside of government.
How about a "government czar" who could take a hatchet to government?
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| | | 29 | sarge33rd
ID: 5011161410 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 16:48
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lol agreed on both counts.
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| | | 30 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 17:26
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personally, I have no qualms with the notion of a "car czar"
Romney would be a near perfect fit on the surface. He has Michigan ties and he used to turn companies around for a living. I think that would be a good sign by Obama (presuming the czar is named during his term) that he wants the best folks and not just Democrats.
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| | | 31 | Madman
ID: 81110118 Sun, Dec 14, 2008, 17:30
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The idea that Toyota/Nissan will have legacy costs in the future is simply bizarre. They chose to pass the stock market risk on to their workers, unlike GM, etc., that decided they were big enough to handle that same risk. Here's a rough outline from the NYTimes a couple of years ago that confirms this notion.
Further, I worry there is quite a bit of sloppy rhetoric here. Each GM worker is paid two sets of healthcare benefits: one for today and one for after they retire. This is accrued and accounted for as wages today, via the plan's "annual service cost". FAS 106 requires this, and was implemented in 1993. There may be some transition obligations leftover from pre-1993 liabilities, but those are surely shrinking. Instead, I suspect, this second accrual -- for the worker's future healthcare costs -- is sometimes being mistakenly called a legacy cost. Notably, very few workers in the US today get such benefits. We are instead left to fend with medicare on our own, an admittedly unattractive possibility, but that's our only choice.
PD -- Did you notice the compound sentence structure I just used? Amazing, eh? To be clear, my position is as follows: a) Obama is defending equity holders, bondholders, and the UAW, by arguing for a bailout. He is choosing to tax my children to pay for it. b) US auto production from the big 3 might end up being as high or *higher* if they file for Ch11, or especially if the government would sponsor a similar pre-packaged bankruptcy. The negative impact to the economy, although large, won't be as negative or as large as if we dribble this out for years and months, avoiding the real questions. Right now, the game GM and Chrysler are having to play is a game of delay, but every day of delay costs us more and more. 3) Corker's approach, although not my ideal, is quite good and recognizes these facts.
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| | | 32 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 03:06
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I like the direction we are going in. It's not like we are still building Ford Grenada's.
Back in 1990 Camry actually was 'beyond compare' but I wouldn't buy one today. Nothin special to see there.
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| | | 33 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 03:21
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How about a "car czar" committee? Made up of successful businessmen and turn around guys, not afraid to use the hatchet.
The only way a "car czar" could use a hatchet is if the car companies are allowed to go bankrupt...or, if the UAW voids it's contract.
Current contract would not allow for any hatcheting. Unless you meant strictly the white collar employees?
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| | | 34 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 10:03
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Even you cut the benes to be comparable to the foreign plants, you'd only take about $800 off the price of the car. Is that amount enough to get you to "buy American"?
It's not that their cars are too expensive, it's that I simply don't want them.
I essentially had a $5000 discount a few years back to buy a new GM car. I looked, and read, and test drove, and hunted...
... and bought a '91 Prelude instead.
They just didn't have anything I wanted.
I do own an old GM truck, and I like it for what I use it for. Mainly hauling stuff around.
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| | | 35 | sarge33rd
ID: 2011191510 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 11:29
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I've bought domestic, and I've import. The ONLY time I bought new, was when I was self-employed and there were HUGE tax benefits to doing so. (IOW, Uncle Sam paid for about half the car if not more.)
1986, bought an '85 Cavalier with 27k on the odo. 1988, and it had 227k on it, with a replaced alternator and catalytic converter.
1985, bought a new Renault Alliance with a 1.4L 4 cyl. 44mpg even with the A/C running. (A car which consumer reports hated and essentially called worthless.) Traded it in on the above Cavalier 18 months later, with 77k on the odo. Repairs (A/C mostly) were covered by the 5 yr unlimited mileage svc contract I bought on it. I pd $15 ea repair, and didnt pay for the tow/rental during the repairs.
Had a Merc Marquis, Linc Twn Car, Cad DeVille, Pontiac Bonneville, Olds 88, Honda Accord,....they were ALL...transportation. Nothing more, nothing less. They got me from here to there and back, and thats what I expected. I tend to buy used, 2 or 3 years old and still under factory warranty. Then I put a 100k extended coverage on it, and I pay approximately half the price of a new one, with almost 3 times the covered mileage.
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| | | 36 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 11:50
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I bought a work van - 1988 Ford Winstar for $3,000 two years coming this February. 110,000 odo.
One trip to Phoenix and two to Denver, and the tranny went out, costing me about $2,000. Just took it to Albuquerque a few weeks ago, and the odo now reads almost 140,000. And it runs great.
So for basically 5 grand, I'm pretty happy with the vehicle. The main problem is that I had to take the back seats out, so it's highly illegal when I have kids in the back. The Dodge Grand Caravan has seats that break down completely flat with the floor, which would give me the flexibility to use the van as both a work and family car. Plus, they're dirt cheap, even for a new one. I'm just having a hard time making that move while the Ford is still driving great, though.
My other vehicle, a 2006 Suzuki Forenza wagon(bought new) is kind of a POS. I'll never buy another 4 cylinder vehicle as long as I live in a mountainous area.
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| | | 37 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 12:23
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1985, bought a new Renault Alliance
I think this alone should disqualify you from ever commenting about cars ever again!
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| | | 38 | sarge33rd
ID: 2011191510 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 13:11
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lmao Car worked great for me. drove 50k+ miles/yr and got 44 mpg with the A/C on. DOG of a car though. Bogged down with me alone it and going up a steep hill. It served its purpose....transportation and tax write-off.
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| | | 39 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 13:34
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bili -- I essentially had a $5000 discount a few years back to buy a new GM car. I looked, and read, and test drove, and hunted...
... and bought a '91 Prelude instead.
They just didn't have anything I wanted.
Sounds like the current management of Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc., also failed you then, too. No reason to pick on GM given this example.
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| | | 40 | walk
ID: 181472714 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 13:48
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NYT, Kristoff: Give the Auto Companies a Fair Shake
I agree with the view that we cannot let the auto companies fail so fast, so hard. It would be even worse for the economy. Even though their management and business model could be to blame, I say let's give them another chance. We gave far more $ to the banking industry, which arguably did a whole lot worse.
I do not think the big 3 auto companies will make it, but I do think we should throw them a lifeline to see if they can pull off an upset and rebound.
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| | | 41 | walk
ID: 181472714 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 13:53
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On a more personal note, I live in NYC and don't own a car. I rent about 2x a month for various weekend excursions with the family. We rent from Avis. 9 out of 10 times, it's an American car (Chevy Impala, Ford Explorer, Chrysler 300, Buick). Sometimes, I get handed to me a Suzuki cross-over, Hyundai Sonata or a Mitsu SUV. The American cars are not bad, but I must say, I find the layout of the controls and feel of the Asian cars to be superior. I don't know if I'd pay the price difference if I were buying new. However, my car rentals never allows me the opportunity to measure reliability. The cars are always on the new/brand new side. The American cars I rent are totally okay, but never anything that makes me go "wow, cool," or "I'd wanna buy that." I did feel that way about the Hyundai Sonata and Santa Fe.
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| | | 42 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 14:04
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Madman Sounds like the current management of Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc., also failed you then, too. No reason to pick on GM given this example.
Why did Bili have a $5,000 discount for all those brands? I thought he was saying it was just for GM.
Got your back Bili...
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| | | 43 | walk
ID: 181472714 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 14:06
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Uh, I think I mixed up Kristol with Kristoff. That would have both of them in stitches. Same article though...
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| | | 44 | Madman
ID: 81110118 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 21:59
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nerve 42 -- if you best option is a '91 Prelude, doesn't sound like any new car manufacturer is doing a particularly good job.
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| | | 45 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 22:33
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I wouldn't have bought new, except for the discount which basically paid for the new car premium. I have owned used Toyotas, Nissans, Hondas, Subarus, Mazdas - you get the picture. When I shop for a used car, I'm pretty open-minded about what I buy. As long as it's not American.
My point was that GM isn't making a car I want, even with a $5000 discount, much less the $800 that gets tacked on for Legacy costs. So the argument that that is what makes them uncompetitive doesn't hold water in my book. It's that they aren't making cars, and at least cars in the segment I'm interested in, that compete with what foreign makers are putting out.
For what it's worth, I kinda like the Chevy Impala, though I couldn't afford it new, and I'm not sure how well they hold up. I also liked my old Monty, but that was my first car, so I'm kinda biased.
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| | | 46 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 22:37
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What we need to do is nationalize health insurance and bolster Social Security, and in so doing take that undue burden of the car manufacturers. If they still can't compete, they down goes Frasier.
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| | | 47 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3511351514 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 23:54
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The way I see it, Ford, Chrysler and GM make trucks, not cars, save for those few strange old people in the middle of the country who drove Cadillacs.
So I went to find some stats and much to my surprise, American manufactured light vehicle sales lap all imports three times over.
Hell, take away trucks and Ford, Chrysler and GM have sold twice as many cars as all imports combined. Who the hell are buying these cars? Out here in WA, all I see are trucks and Japanese cars.
True, the top five selling cars are all Japanese: Camry, Accord, Corolla, Civic, Altima. So far this year, 250,000 Chevy Impalas have been sold. Really? Where?
There have been 473,000 F-Series sold so far. Yeah, I've seen plenty of them.
Hey, I don't want millions of people to be out of work, but ever since some point in the eighties, there has not been a single American car I would want to own, new or used. Now, I can see the appeal of the Chrysler 300, if you lived in East Texas and needed to regularly drive 300 miles with 1200 pounds of human to haul, and you didn't care one wit about the environmental impact of your exhaust.
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| | | 48 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Tue, Dec 16, 2008, 00:17
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"... American manufactured light vehicle sales lap all imports three times over."
I think you forgot to read the footnote. The key here is that most of those Hondas and Nissans are built right here in the good ol' US of A.
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| | | 49 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3511351514 Tue, Dec 16, 2008, 00:45
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Sure enough. Looking at Sales by Company, US manufacturers have sold 5.9 million, Japanese 5.6 million, European 816k. That seems more along the lines of with what I have seen on the road.
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| | | 50 | Frick
ID: 3410551012 Tue, Dec 16, 2008, 09:47
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Re: 47
How many police cars do you see? And police cars have a fairly short life in a police department. Domestics also sell many cars to various fleets: large companies, rental agencies, etc.
One of the other issues that no one has mentioned is the dealership networks of the domestics. There are many good dealerships, but there are many, many more terrible dealerships that make people want to run away screaming. Why does going to buy a car have the same social stigma as going to the dentist? Have you ever asked someone who left a dealership with a new car and had them say they got a good deal? Or have they come out wondering how bad they've been screwed.
I'm sure Sarge is going to disagree with me, but that's the perception that I've experienced. Could the domestics get by with 20-30% fewer dealerships? Probably, but I don't see it happening.
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| | | 51 | Seattle Zen
ID: 911101610 Tue, Dec 16, 2008, 11:19
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How many police cars do you see?
Cops are on bicycles or horses out here. Well, there is the Seattle PD RV that they park in the lot at the front entrance to Hempfest each year. They throw quite the tailgate party.
I'm with you on the dealership dilemma. Eliminate them all, buy your car via the Net through Amazon or some such. Think of how many million kilowatts saved from not running all those kleig lights all night long!
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| | | 52 | nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Tue, Dec 16, 2008, 14:31
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And sarge for a little balence...
Consumer Report top 10 cars of 2008, only 1 American.
green car - Toyota Prius Small sedan - Hyundai Elantra SE Family sedan - Honda Accord Upscale sedan - Infiniti G35 Luxury sedan - Lexus LS 460L Fun to drive - Mazda MX-5 Miata Small SUV - Toyota RAV4 Midsized SUV - Hyundai Santa Fe Minivan - Toyota Sienna Pickup truck - Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Crew Cab
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| | | 53 | Madman
ID: 81110118 Tue, Dec 16, 2008, 21:40
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What we need to do is nationalize health insurance and bolster Social Security, and in so doing take that undue burden of the car manufacturers. If they still can't compete, they down goes Frasier.
I don't see the connection. Foreign manufacturers locate plants in the US all the time. The problem is that GM can't compete against foreigners when they are in the US system as it stands. Extending national healthcare / bolstering Social Security would increase the tax burden of the relatively well paid GM employees. And they'd still get their lucrative supplement plans, which they are demanding right now because our single payer senior healthcare system apparently isn't good enough for them.
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| | | 54 | Perm Dude
ID: 4711491614 Tue, Dec 16, 2008, 21:46
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You make it sound like workers should simply shut up, Madman. That doesn't appear to be very reality-based. (And I wasn't under the impression that you are a fan of the senior health care system--I'm certainly not--but you seem to be taking them to task for agreeing with you on the point, yes?)
And the key word in your post is "relatively." This is going to sound harsher than I mean it, but that's a weasel word.
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| | | 55 | Madman
ID: 81110118 Tue, Dec 16, 2008, 22:38
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This is going to sound harsher than I mean it, but that's a weasel word.
No, it's an acknowledgment of the fact that someone has to pickup the healthcare costs of GM workers & their families. And if you are a working individual, right there it's already hard to do that (since many in society don't work and therefore must have healthcare paid for by those who do work). GM workers are not only employed, however, they are employed at above-median wage jobs ("relatively" well off). This means that offloading their healthcare burden onto others is especially problematic.
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| | | 57 | Perm Dude
ID: 711382110 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 14:37
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Can't post it here, but this "ad" perfectly captures it, I think:
Link
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| | | 58 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 14:45
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When they can get loans and make the payments they buy American cars just fine.
I was always more than annoyed by chess commentators who didn't deserve to be in the same room with Bobby Fisher, putting question marks next to some of his moves.
I am also greatly annoyed by people who couldn't judge a quality car if their lives depended on it let alone build or design one, acting like the big three made obvious errors. Errors that the diletante auto critic would have avoided if they had auto executive jobs that they themselves are far and away unworthy of.
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| | | 59 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 08:57
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Kudos to Michelle Malkin for an enlightening and disheartening expose on UAW mismanagement.
Give Malkin credit for focus, instead of straying into generic attacks on "leftists" for effect. Even when she does stray a bit, her observation is right on:
UAW management has proven to be a money-squandering corruptocracy with faux blue-collar trim.
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| | | 60 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 09:52
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That is an interesting perspective PV. We hear ad nauseum about the golden parachutes and private jets for executives, but we never hear about the excess in union management (at least on par with corporate CEOs).
And while the UAW and carmakers cry poor, they've operated massive joint funds for years that have paid for lavish items such as multi-million-dollar NASCAR racer sponsorships and Las Vegas junkets. The dire economic downturn hasn't changed the behavior of profligate union bigs at the front office or the shop floor. Local Detroit TV station WDIV recently caught local UAW bosses Ron Seroka and Jim Modzelewski -- both of whom make six-figure salaries -- on tape squandering thousands of hours of overtime on such important labor security matters as on-the-clock beer runs and bowling tournaments.
At least the groveling Big Three CEOs gave up their corporate jets. Where's the public flogging for the greed-infested UAW fat cats reaching into our pockets to keep them afloat?
Classic.
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| | | 61 | Seattle Zen
ID: 5411323112 Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 13:49
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I'm certainly not qualified to say what the Big Three should do in order to become profitable again as I am no expert in the auto industry. Yeah, their labor costs are sky high.
But Ms. Malkin has made a simple logical error in her "exposé". Every dime the UAW spends comes from contributions of the workers. The eight figure salaries of management, country club memberships, luxury boxes, corporate jets... comes from the stockholders.
I would certainly hope that the president of a union the size of the UAW makes a six figure salary.
You could certainly make the argument that auto workers make too much money, but I don't think pointing to how their union spends their members contributions is an effective way of making that argument.
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| | | 62 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 14:43
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You could certainly make the argument that auto workers make too much money, but I don't think pointing to how their union spends their members contributions is an effective way of making that argument.
I think when you're talking about using taxpayer money to "loan" to the Big 3, it's incumbent on us, the taxpayers, to examine how these unions spend their members' contributions.
The issue here isn't the salary of the UAW president or the UAW rank and file. The issue is the UAW owning and operating a consistently money-losing golf resort, spending tens of thousands around the country on golf tournaments(likely limited to management, as well as investments in money-losing airlines and money-losing radio studios.
It appears to me that the argument Malkin is making centers on whether or not this UAW management business as usual is acceptable given the current circumstances.
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| | | 63 | Perm Dude
ID: 01129319 Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 14:48
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If the government was loaning money to the UAW you'd have a strong argument. But you would first have to make the argument that the workers are overpaid and are a barrier to the company's long-term business health before how the workers spend their own money should be questioned.
Should the union be brought to bear? Sure, by its members. Not by the government.
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| | | 64 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 20:14
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If the government was loaning money to the UAW you'd have a strong argument.
It's a package deal. Otherwise, why would UAW President Ron Gettelfinger be appearing before Congress asking what concessions the union would be willing to make as a condition for government money?
Should the union be brought to bear? Sure, by its members. Not by the government.
I suppose, in a perfect world. I attempted to discover if there was ever a rank and file vote concerning the union's purchase of the Black Lake facility. Apparently not.
There's no record I could find that rank and file members were involved in building and operating the golf course, which opened in 2000.
One really has to ask what the purpose of a labor union is. Initially the purpose was to negotiate fair wages in a safe and clean environment. Then came health benefits, pensions, vacation pay,etc.
Eventually, unions like the UAW became an industry unto themselves, management heavy at every turn. It may have made sense to have an educational and training facility/retreat in Northern Michigan during the Big 3's golden years in the 60s and 70s when Black Lake was purchased and built, prior to the advent of Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Mazda and Kia, not to mention Volvo, Saab, BMW and Mercedes. Back then it was either Detroit or a VW bug or van.
Consequently, from a peak of 1.5 million members in the 1970s, the UAW ranks have dropped to just 465,000 regular members, according to its most recent federal filings, according to this article in the Union News.
In the face of a two-thirds drop in membership, union leaders decided to spend $6 million to build the Black Lake Golf Course. Given that there are currently 465,000 UAW members, consider these stats from the same Union News article.
Last year, 9,000 members attended classes at the education center and 13,000 rounds of golf were played, including 1,000 donated for charity events and such, Kerson said. UAW members played 4,000 of the rounds, he said.
That leaves 456,000 members who didn't attend classes, and 461,000 who didn't play golf. That's assuming that none of those 4,000 rounds were by repeat players, and there's no stats on how many of those 4,000 rounds were played by union management.
And as Malkin points out, Who knew hitting the links was so central to the business of making cars? In May and November 2007, the UAW forked over nearly $53,000 for union staff meetings at the Thousand Hills Golf Resort in Branson, Mo. In September 2007, the UAW dropped another $5,000 at the Lakes of Taylor Golf Club in Taylor, Mich., and another $9,000 at the Thunderbird Hills Golf Club in Huron, Ohio. Another bill for $5,772 showed up for the Branson, Mo., golf resort. On Oct. 26, 2007, the union spent $5,000 on another "golf outing" in Detroit. In May and June 2007, UAW bosses spent nearly $11,000 on a golf tournament and related expenses at the Hawthorne Hill Country Club in Lima, Ohio. And in April 2007, the UAW spent $12,000 for a charity golf sponsorship in Dearborn, Mich.
Since the UAW owns and operates the Black Lake Course, why not use it for all these golf outings, especially given that the course has over 2.6 million in net losses since its inception?
A typical golf tournament has 72 participants(18 foursomes in a shotgun start - a foursome beginning on every hole). Care to venture a guess as to how many of those slots are reserved for rank and file and how many for management?
And, again, what does a golf tournament have to do with representing auto workers? The rank and file membership are busy worrying about plant closures and keeping their jobs. I have to think most of them would agree with the following sentiment from the Union News article:
Gregg Shotwell, a UAW activist, is not troubled to learn that the education center is losing money. "When you are educating and training union members, that's the business of the union. That's never a loss," Shotwell said.
But the golf course is a different story to Shotwell. "We should be running a union -- not a country club," he said.
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| | | 65 | Perm Dude
ID: 01129319 Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 20:20
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No one is disputing the arguments you are making about the union. All I'm saying is that government shouldn't be the entity required to look into how members of the union are spending their own money.
The workers don't give up that freedom simply because labor is a large part of an auto's costs and the companies are having a hard time running their own businesses.
And the UAW coming before Congress? C'mon--the union already indicating they would be willing to re-negotiate with the companies many weeks ago.
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| | | 66 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 20:27
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No one is disputing the arguments you are making about the union. All I'm saying is that government shouldn't be the entity required to look into how members of the union are spending their own money.
If they are going to be the beneficiaries of billions of taxpayer dollars via a bailout you bet the gov't should be there. Rubber gloved hands and all.
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| | | 67 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 20:56
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All I'm saying is that government shouldn't be the entity required to look into how members of the union are spending their own money.
And all I'm saying is that members of the union have basically no say in how the union is spending their money.
The UAW is like the government. All these locals vote for representatives, who then go to Detroit, instead of Washington, and decide how to spend the dues, instead of taxes. There's all these levels of bureaucracy that by the time it trickles down to the rank and file, the representation is so diluted as to be almost meaningless.
Besides, I'm not arguing, and neither is Malkin, that government should be the entity that decides how the union spends its money. Ultimately, the entity that makes that decision is the American(and international) consumer. Every UAW due paid is reflected in the cost of a Detroit car, truck or van. The drop in union membership coupled with the drop in Detroit sales should make it obvious that frivolous spending of UAW dues is an exercise that should have been abandoned 30 years ago.
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| | | 68 | Perm Dude
ID: 01129319 Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 21:24
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And all I'm saying is that members of the union have basically no say in how the union is spending their money
Well, if that were truth that that is all you're saying then we'd be in complete agreement.
:)
But you are advocating that the government root out and expose these excesses, since the companies these people work for will be getting a government bailout. That's the point that we part ways.
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| | | 69 | walk
ID: 139332920 Sun, Jan 04, 2009, 18:08
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End of the Financial World as We Know It
A comprehensive and well-written article about what went wrong and why it may not get fixed. Fundamental change in oversight and incentives are needed.
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| | | 70 | jedman Dude
ID: 315192219 Sun, Jan 04, 2009, 18:55
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Thanks for that link walk, what an excellent article indeed.
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| | | 71 | Boldwin
ID: 5704850 Mon, Jan 05, 2009, 09:24
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Best summary I've read in weeks if not a month. Buried in there however is the urge to turn this situation into socialized housing. We haven't seen the last of that. It may even become a theme of Obama's & the Dem congress for years to come.
I can just see it coming...my hardworking, obscenely taxed sons will end up with homes foreclosed [having been upside down thru no fault of their own] but millions of politically connected 'most favored victim' deadbeats will end up with free houses.
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| | | 72 | walk
ID: 181472714 Mon, Jan 05, 2009, 12:34
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Sure thing although I do not know what possessed me to put it in this thread (maybe I got hooked on the subject of "bailout," but I did not see the "auto" in the header...d'oh!). I agree this article is very good, and will point to it in the CDOs: weapons of financial destruction thread, too.
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| | | 73 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Tue, Jan 06, 2009, 07:12
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$8 trillion bailout: How Obama plan fits in
Sitting down? It's time to tally up the federal government's bailout tab.
There was $29 billion for Bear Stearns, $345 billion for Citigroup. The Federal Reserve put up $600 billion to guarantee money market deposits and has aggressively driven down interest rates to essentially zero.
The list goes on and on. All told, Congress, the Treasury Department, the Federal Reserve and other agencies have taken dozens of steps to prop up the economy.
Total price tag so far: $7.2 trillion. Now comes President-elect Barack Obama's economic stimulus plan, some details of which were made public on Monday. The bill is getting awfully close to $8 trillion.
I wasn't aware we had $8 trillion (or roughly 3 years worth of our operating budget) laying around collecting dust. And to think all this time would could've fixed Social Security or had one big old mammoth sized tax cut.
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| | | 74 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 18:35
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PJB: Obama’s Choice: FDR or Reagan By Patrick J. Buchanan
Barack Obama, it is said, will inherit the worst times since the Great Depression. Not to minimize the crisis we are in, but we need a little perspective here.
The Great Depression began with the Great Crash of 1929. By 1931, unemployment had reached 16 percent.
By 1933, 89 percent of stock value had been wiped out, the economy had shrunk by one-third, thousands of banks had closed, a third of the money supply had vanished, and unemployment had reached 25 percent — among heads of households. And in those days, there was no unemployment insurance, no Medicare, no Medicaid, no Social Security, no welfare.
FDR’s answer: vast federal spending, tough new regulations on business and higher taxes — like Herbert Hoover before him, only more so.
The Depression lasted until war orders from the Allies brought U.S. industry back to life. Before 1940, not once did unemployment fall below 14 percent. In May 1939, Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau testified:
“We are spending more money than we have ever spent before, and it does not work. … I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. … I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started … and an enormous debt, to boot.”
Politically, the New Deal was a smashing success, with FDR’s landslides in 1932, 1934 and 1936 virtually wiping out the GOP.
Yet, economically, the New Deal was a bust, failing utterly to restore prosperity. Despite the indoctrination of generations of schoolchildren in New Deal propaganda, that is the hard truth.
Consider, now, how Ronald Reagan responded to the economic crisis of 1980, the worst since the Depression. In the “stagflation” of that Jimmy Carter era, interest rates had reached 21 percent and inflation 13 percent.
Reagan’s answer was the tight money policy of Fed Chairman Paul Volcker and across-the-board tax cuts of 25 percent, while slashing the highest rates from 70 percent to 28 percent.
While unemployment hit 10 percent in 1982 and Reagan lost 26 House seats, in 1983 the tax cuts kicked in.
From there on out, it was boom times until Reagan rode off into the sunset, having created 20 million new jobs. “The Seven Fat Years,” author Robert Bartley called them.
Reagan had followed the lead of Warren Harding and Cal Coolidge, who had cut Woodrow Wilson’s wartime tax rates of near 70 percent to 25 percent, resulting in “The Roaring ’20s,” a time of unrivaled prosperity.
The JFK tax cuts of the 1960s, also a Reagan model, were equally successful.
Harding, Coolidge, JFK and Reagan all bet on the private sector as the engine of prosperity. All succeeded. Franklin Roosevelt bet on government. And the New Deal failed. It was World War II that pulled the United States out of the Depression ditch of the 1930s.
Comes now the financial collapse and economic crisis of 2008, inherited by Obama, with 40 percent of all stock values wiped out in a year, foreclosures pandemic, and unemployment near 7 percent and surging.
In crafting his solutions, Obama seems to be brushing aside the Reagan, JFK and Harding-Coolidge models, and channeling FDR and the New Deal Democrats.
Already staring at a $1.2 trillion dollar deficit for the year ending Sept. 30, about 8 percent of the entire U.S. economy, Obama intends to add a stimulus package of $700 billion to $1 trillion, yet another 5 percent to 7 percent of gross domestic product. The resulting deficit would be twice as large as Reagan’s largest, 6 percent of GDP, which was the largest since World War II.
And how is this Niagara of money to be spent?
Hundreds of billions will go out in checks of $500 to $1,000 to wage-earners and individuals who do not even pay taxes. This is much like the George McGovern “demogrant” program of 1972, where every man, woman and child, if memory serves, was to get a $1,000 check from the U.S. government.
Other hundreds of billions will go to shore up state and municipal spending. Other hundreds of billions will go for “infrastructure” projects, another name for earmarks, which is a synonym for pork.
Now, as Obama does not intend to raise taxes, at least now, he is going to have to borrow this near $2 trillion from foreigners or U.S. taxpayers, or the Fed will have to create the money. Undeniably, this will have an impact upon the economy. But what will that impact be?
Where in history, other than World War II, is there evidence that such a mass infusion of spending restored prosperity?
Obama and the Democrats are taking a historic gamble, not only with their careers but with the country. If this monstrous stimulus package, plus the trillions in hot money, do not work; if the two ignite rampant inflation, rather than real growth, we are all out of options. The toolbox is empty.
And what will follow may truly resemble the 1930s.
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| | | 75 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311 Fri, May 29, 2009, 10:13
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Iococca likely to lose pension & company car in Chrysler bankruptcy.
The article is written unclearly, but it seems Iococca and others holding unsecured debt with Chrysler won't get squat in the end. Sucks, for sure, but one of the few cases I know of where the executives (and a retired one at that) aren't first in line.
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| | | 76 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Sat, May 30, 2009, 20:31
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One executive who actually earned every penny.
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| | | 77 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311 Sun, May 31, 2009, 18:43
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I agree. A hardcore democrat too, BTW.
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| | | 79 | sarge33rd
ID: 236141411 Thu, Jul 16, 2009, 17:45
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Chrysler financial repays $1.5 billion TARP loan
FARMINGTON HILLS, Mich. – Chrysler Financial announced Wednesday it has repaid in full the $1.5 billion of Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) government loans.
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| | | 81 | Boldwin
ID: 362262121 Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 12:04
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Obamamotors newest concept car catches the true nature of Obama...

Welcome the new EN-V
You can't make this stuff up.
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| | | 82 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 12:13
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If there is no demand it won't sell. If there is, what's your problem?
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| | | 83 | Boldwin
ID: 362262121 Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 12:14
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And if that's all that envy delivers I'll keep on throwing my fate to the free enterprise system.
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