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| Posted by: Jag
- [280452215] Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:34
Why is the closing of Gitmo so important to Liberals? Why do they not care, that if released, many will kill Americans? They know 61 of those released have already returned to fighting. Why is it so important to them, that one of the vile leaders of Al Queda was waterboarded? The answer is... it is NOT important to them or anyone else. It was just another way to attack the Bush administration. Even the Great Uniter felt it was necessary to comment on this in his address, eventhough nobody gives a damn, but the Far-left. Grats Liberals, you succeeded in killing a few more soldiers and nothing else. |
| | | 1 | Perm Dude
ID: 410112116 Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:41
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1. No one is saying to release them. We are saying that these suspects should be tried.
2. Gitmo is an example of how not to fight terror: Hold hundreds of people without charges for years, torture them, withhold evidence from their court-ordered attorneys, then cry foul when the "Left" wants the suspects to be tied in, you know, actual courts? Meanwhile, many of these people are actually innocent but suddenly it is a new idea for conservatives that the innocent that we held in jail for no reason and tortured hate us?
Here's how to fix the problem: Insist on the rule of law. What a surprise!
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| | | 2 | pdwhitt
ID: 160372222 Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:46
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"many of these people are actually innocent"
Perm dude, how do you know? Based on your quote, you seem to have some inside information. Please expound on your knowledge of the situation.
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| | | 3 | Perm Dude
ID: 410112116 Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:48
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Simple: They haven't been tried yet, despite being held for years. Many haven't even been charged. And many were released.
Unless you are of the opinion that the US is releasing guilty people from Gitmo?
You probably forget this, but even the detainees (many of which are probably pretty horrible people) are presumed innocent until proven guilty.
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| | | 4 | Jag
ID: 280452215 Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:48
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How do you know some are innocent and please show proof that we tortured them. BTW, leaving them alone and turning off the AC is not torture.
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| | | 5 | Jag
ID: 280452215 Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:51
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In a court of law you are presumed innocent, in real life you are either innocent or guilty, period.
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| | | 6 | Jag
ID: 280452215 Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:52
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Many were released and the Pentagon has 61 of them returning to kill Americans.
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| | | 7 | Perm Dude
ID: 410112116 Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:54
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See, there's the problem: These detainees aren't being permitted to be tried. What, exactly, are you afraid of, Jag? That our justice system can't handle it? That the Bush Administration might actually be wrong to hold people for years?
How, exactly, do you know some of these people are guilty?
Isn't it actually the point that we can't know, until they are tried?
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| | | 8 | pdwhitt
ID: 160372222 Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:58
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So let me get this straight. Because they haven't been through the court system or through the trial phase their innocent? Remember who we're dealing with. These aren't your run of the mill felons. They would no more wish you and your family dead & could give a darn about your right to protect their innocence.
Have you ever been to traffic court? Try to prove your innocence there. The presumption of guilt is on you to prove your innocence.
Think about it.
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| | | 9 | Jag
ID: 280452215 Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:59
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You are right, I don't think we can have a non-military trial.
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| | | 10 | pdwhitt
ID: 160372222 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 00:10
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These detainees will still be detainees. It's just a matter of where they are moved too. Now we're going to, in most likelihood put them on our own soil. I don't get it.
The President doesn't get it if you listened to his Executive Order. They'll work on it - to paraphrase.
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| | | 11 | Perm Dude
ID: 410112116 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 00:18
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pdwhitt: These are suspects. No more, and no less. Whether they are guilty or innocent deserves to be determined. Gitmo prevents that from happening. But despite the deck stacked for the prosecution in all areas, the Bush Administration has refused to try nearly all these people in court, at any level.
People on the Right get so caught up in believing that the "Left" want these suspects to go free, or get some kind of special treatment. This is a complete fabrication. The "Left" (as well as huge swaths of moderates and many on the Right) want these people to be tried in court as an example of the very reason we have a justice system in the first place. Refusing to try these people (and torturing them in the meantime), makes out committment to the rule of law a mockery.
The incompetence of this Administration shows brightest in how it is fighting the "War on Terror." Osama bin Laden does, indeed, hate our freedoms, so he needed the help of this administration to curtail them (and they complied). He needed Bush to take a bunch of lackeys and refuse to put them through any kind of justice system (in fact, convincing many, like yourself, to believe that we are actually more at risk in trying these people in a military court), which raises their status in the eyes of terrorists and would-be terrorists everywhere. Nicely done. Give people a reason to hate us, then try to blame it all on the "Left."
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| | | 12 | pdwhitt
ID: 160372222 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 00:39
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It's obvious your bias and hatred for Former President Bush. So, Osama masterminded that these detainees - "lackeys" were sacrificial to challenge our courts? For that premise alone I would assign guilt to those detainees. Don't be so insulated as to know that these people didn't know what they were doing.
Okay, according to Obama they're closing Gitmo. These detainees will now be moved. In all likelihood to the mainland. I personally think that makes us more of a target. Give them a public trial and what does that prove? They still hate us and are hell bent on destroying our way of life.
Remember, Some people could care less about you or your freedoms, they want you and our system of democracy destroyed.
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| | | 13 | Razor
ID: 56038210 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 01:20
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Lots of BS Bush rhetoric in this thread. He's gone, and so too will Gitmo.
The mere fact that most of the hundreds of detainees were released without any charges brought against them and that many did not go into the field to take up arms proves that their incarceration was likely bogus in the first place. Some ignorant folks think we have hundreds of high level Al Qaeda members stashed away down there who were caught by American troops. Most of these guys were handed over to the US by Afghans and Pakistanis seeking a reward. Meanwhile, we've spent millions of dollars holding these guys who were worthless to us in the first place, not to mention the cost of our fallen standing in the world.
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| | | 14 | Jag
ID: 280452215 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 01:36
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I am sorry, but I don't give a damn about the detainees, my only fear is if they are released more soldiers may die. I guess my priorities are different.
Razor, your statement on why it is bogus makes no sense and please show me where the detainees were bought from Pakistanis.
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| | | 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 410112116 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 01:38
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I don't hate Bush. I hate what he's done to our freedoms, and how he's made the world less safe through the abandonment of our principles. You seem to be of the naive belief that everyone being held at Gitmo is a terrorist worthy of torture. We manufacture hatred of the US through our continued unethical and illegal behavior toward the detainees. People who might otherwise be on our side in the war on terror (such as moderate Muslims, who need and deserve our support) are turned off by our behavior against the detainees and our refusal to try them in court.
The rule of law, like any other bedrock principle of our democracy, doesn't exist only for sunny days.
So long as you continue to think this about a personal dislike for Bush rather than what Bush did you'll continue to miss the point. The "Left" want the detainees tried in a court. You are fighting that. You need to ask yourself why.
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| | | 16 | weykool Leader
ID: 41750315 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 02:19
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Perhaps we can make the closing of Gitmo part of the stimulus package/bailout. We can call it operation "Adopt a Terrorist". We will just pay people to take them into their homes and give them the treatment they so rightfully deserve. How many should we send to your house PD and Razor?
This is nothing more than symbolism over substance. Lets just close down Gitmo. Where will we keep them? Geez....didnt think about that.
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| | | 17 | walk
ID: 139332920 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 06:26
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Released Gitmo Detainee Now Deputy Head of Queda in Yemen
A bit to Jag's point.
"Look," I don't want Gitmo closed so terrorists can return to the fight against America or others. I just want an end to imprisonment without charges, torture, and principles against the Geneva convention. Isn't there not a way to stop these anti-American practices (rendition, torture, detainment without charges) while also lawfully putting these alleged terrorists through our legal system? There is.
We should not just release detainees to Saudia Arabia and assume they will be rehab'd, and we should not just lock them away, in tortuous conditions, without charges and a proper legal system. There has to be an appropriate way of dealing with these folks that is consistent with our American legal system.
I don't think this is a "liberal thing," (and you know it, Jag), it's an American values thing. It's a complex problem that is not reduced to "they're all terrorists (cos we say so), so we're gonna lock 'em up and throw away the key."
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| | | 18 | walk
ID: 139332920 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 06:35
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There is a lot of hot air rhetoric in this thread. Jag/pdwhitt, your assumptions that if we arrest them, then they are presumed guilty are very cavalier. No one here is saying we should just release them. We shoudl TRY them, like anyone else. What kind of country do you want? Do you think there is no safe way for us to legally try these detainees and imprison them without a threat to our security? They are like some masterminds who can break out of any all maximum security prisons? Please.
Whaddya mean: "I don't give a damn about the detainees?" Some of them are likely terrorists and some of them are not. There's many articles detailing how some were detained cos others in Afghanistan informed on them to get money or because of personal differences. And there are stories of others who were caught red-handed engaging in terrorist activities. Some are underage when captured (15, 16), and there are international laws about that, too.
Why can't we act in accordance with the Geneva convention and our own legal system on this? These guys are not transformers or terminators. The most powerful country on earth cannot effectively legally try and potentially imprison convicted terrorists? Is that what you are saying?
What if it was one of your relatives who was picked up and never charged, not allowed an attorney, not allowed to talk to anyone, and kept in freezing temps, subject to extremely loud music all day long, kept in isolation for weeks on end, waterboarded, beaten, deprived of the ability to speak, hear, see, etc...? This is somehow okay?
What's your point? I mean, it's not like we are on a deserted island with a plane wrecked crew of 15 and we think one of us is a canibal and we have to play it safe. We have a pretty good legal system and security apparatus without resorting to the practices of torture and Gitmo, no?
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| | | 19 | walk
ID: 139332920 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 06:43
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Two more things:
1. Jag, this is not about us hating Bush, and yo know it. While I hate Bush, you know we can separate our views about his competence vs. our views regarding such policies. So, I admit I hate Bush, but that does not mean that I hate this Gitmo thing cos I hate Bush! Why do I have to be that stupid? Gitmo is wrong. There are other ways to handle these terrorists without compromising our values. We have the abilities.
2. I am also concerned about our soldiers being in harm's way. I don't want to release the Gitmo detainees so they can return to fight our guys. I just want them tried in a way that we would try anyone arrested of whatever. Assume they were arrested for attempted murder. Something like that. We ALSO care about our soliders! We just don't think that just cos these detainees were allegedly terrorists that it gives us the excuse to abuse them and detain them without proper legal charges.
Seriously, is there not a way to deal with these detainees, in Gitmo and our secret prisons, without jeapardizing our security?
We are not asking anyone to adopt a terrorist. You guys are really buying into the false choices and black/white scenario laid out by the previous administration. We can handle this, properly, and with a high degree of security.
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| | | 20 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 08:16
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Remember, Some people could care less about you or your freedoms, they want you and our system of democracy destroyed.
and fortunately, Bush, Cheney, and their whole crew are out of office.
I am sorry, but I don't give a damn about the detainees, my only fear is if they are released more soldiers may die. I guess my priorities are different.
and we wouldn't be worrying about more soldiers dying if your man Bush hadn't brought us into this silly war in the first place.
if you're going to hold people's feet to the fire, Bush has got to be near the start of the line.
We can call it operation "Adopt a Terrorist". We will just pay people to take them into their homes and give them the treatment they so rightfully deserve. How many should we send to your house PD and Razor?
no one is suggesting anything even remotely close to what you are. what we are suggesting is that we try them, and then imprison or free them, depending on the verdict.
holding them indefinitely is cruel, and, quite frankly, IT IS NOT THE AMERICAN WAY.
that's the kind of $hit that happens in all these horrific movies were some innocent american gets imprisoned on bogus charges in some far away place like Turkey or deep Africa or South America. IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN HERE, BUT CLEARLY, IT IS.
and before anyone can accuse me of hating Bush, i don't hate him. i don't know him well enough to hate him - in fact, two people i know work(ed) very closely with Bush, and both called him a "very nice man."
i do hate many of his policies and i hate what he did to this country i love. After 8 years of darkness and some very un-American ways of doing things, i firmly believe now this country is heading back in the right direction.
only time will tell, but i'm going to trust my instinct on this, and as long as the Limbaugh's, Martin's, and Hendrix' of the world - people who have said in no uncertain terms they want this country to fail - can actually find it in their heart to see if this country can find a better place and relocate it's morale compass, we're going to be ok.
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| | | 21 | WiddleAvi
ID: 361157177 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 08:26
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pdwhitt re: #12 - Remember, Some people could care less about you or your freedoms, they want you and our system of democracy destroyed.
Don't worry. They don't need to ruin our system. It was being done for us by Bush & co. Our system gives the right to a fair trial.
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| | | 22 | Texas Flood
ID: 100151217 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 08:29
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Try them and if found guilty put them in good ole American prisons. Let their new fellow inmates administer the justice.
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| | | 23 | Baldwin
ID: 140312221 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 09:38
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I still believe Gitmo is just a symbol for the left to focus their hate of Bush, like some kind of voodoo doll. You showed me one guy, perhaps the worst of the bunch who may or may not have been tortured depending on how the details actually match the worst interprtation of his treatment [ie how extreme was the temperature].
By and large I do not have the impression that torture was commonplace at Gitmo, probably just the opposite.
Statements like PD's -We manufacture hatred of the US through our continued unethical and illegal behavior toward the detainees ...just get thrown around willy nilly without anyone holding them to prove their case.
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| | | 24 | Perm Dude
ID: 47047238 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 09:53
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Gitmo is a symbol of Bush all right--a symbol of how not to protect and defend American ideals.
Let's see here: We sweep up a number of people in Afghanistan, Iraq, and others given to us by people in Pakistan and other countries (don't like your neighbor? The Americans will pay you to take him off your hands!). We torture many, hold them without charges, deny them minimum legal representation--all this for years.
Now the Right is in a tizzy--"we can't have these super terrorist monsters in our backyards! Oh no!" They have done the terrorists' work for them--built these men up into super terrorists, made them into symbols of the fight against the West.
Memo to the wingnuts on the Right: You failed in your effort to direct the War on Terror. Now shut up and step aside while the rest of us clean up your mess.
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| | | 25 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 09:54
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I was reading through the thread here and started to wonder why they had not been tried. I mean it has to be easy enough to get the military court to convict them, just as easy as it is for you to be found guilty in traffic court. But once they are convicted they must be sentenced so they can no longer be "questioned".
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| | | 26 | Baldwin
ID: 140312221 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 09:56
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We torture many - PD
Ok, prove it.
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| | | 27 | Baldwin
ID: 140312221 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 10:02
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Memo to the wingnuts on the Right: You failed in your effort to direct the War on Terror
Memo to the left...surrender is not a solution. Snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory is not an achievement.
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| | | 28 | Perm Dude
ID: 47047238 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 10:03
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You haven't even bothered to read what I've provided, have you.
One can lead a horse to water...
All of which misses the larger point: These people are being held at Gitmo for the sole purpose of declaring them enemy combatants and thereby not having to actually bring them to justice. This is what you want--some kind of quasi-legal status where you don't actually have to hold hearings, conduct the business of justice, or face your consequences.
You've got nothing in response except to try to quibble--to try to, in some way, save face through the forced modification of words here and there. Get out of the way and let some adults in.
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| | | 29 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 10:53
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Pandering to the left?
If 61 of those released have already returned to fighting, who is responsible for these releases?
Where is this number documented?
Regardless, the issue of closing Gitmo is inconsequential in the big picture of national and global security. If there's any pandering going on it's statements like:
Grats Liberals, you succeeded in killing a few more soldiers and nothing else
For those who actually desire to discuss issues that matter, let's review the Bush administration's record re the War on Terror. A major component of this record includes billions in cash and hi tech weapons systems to our 'ally' Pakistan.
We continued this flow of cash and weapons to a country that we knew was a global leader in providing radical Islamic jihadism as a major component of their educational system.
While Jag makes up silly scenarios for purely political purposes, those tasked with directing our military, like Gen Petraeus are left to contemplate and respond to rising Islamic radicalism within Pakistan, it's effect on our efforts in Afghanistan, and the threat of Pakistan/India hostilities erupting and de-stabilizing the entire Asian sub-continent.
And you're biggest worry is closing Gitmo?
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| | | 30 | Baldwin
ID: 140312221 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:12
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Actually any logical person is more worried about surrender monkey liberals running foreign policy and marxists in charge of stabilizing capitalism.
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| | | 31 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:19
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Are we to conclude that you are a logical person, Baldwin?
Nothing you've posted in months would indicate such.
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| | | 32 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:29
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Let's talk logic.
worried about surrender monkey liberals running foreign policy
Any logic in that characterization? Surrender to whom? You abandon logic in favor of snippy soundbites.
Your response to the fact(the word actually applies here) that Bush provided billions in cash and weapons to a country that promotes radical Islamic jihad as part of its educational system is to make a completely unrelated remark for the sake of insult.
Is that your idea of stimulating discussion? Where is the logic in such a response?
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| | | 33 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:33
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Haven't you learned by now that logic is beyond his capabilities? Like asking for blood from a stone.
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| | | 34 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:52
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Baldwin fully capable of being logical, but he's also capable of being obstinate.
Jag could have started a thread centered on the pros and cons of closing Gitmo. Instead, he chose to frame it in the context of indicting liberals, concluding with the mindless lie that
Grats Liberals, you succeeded in killing a few more soldiers and nothing else.
Gitmo isn't even closed, and Jag is accusing liberals of already having succeded of killing a few more soldiers. If anyone released from Gitmo has killed an American soldier, it's because the Bush administration released them.
Nice logic.
Baldwin and Jag are too invested in martyrdom and negativity to embrace a logical thought process.
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| | | 35 | jedman
ID: 552262217 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:58
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Can I ask maybe a stupid question? Why not keep Gitmo open, but accelerate the trials of these detainees and then take the appropriate action after a verdict? Let the Obama administration feel secure that whatever torture may have been performed is not performed anymore. What is the difference between holding them there until a trial or holding them someplace else until a trial?
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| | | 36 | Perm Dude
ID: 47047238 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 12:01
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Obama gave them a year I believe, right? So I think he's already taking your advice, jedman.
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| | | 37 | C1-NRB
ID: 2911103011 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 12:09
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Gitmo is a symbol of Bush all right When I read this the first time I saw, "Gitmo is a symbol of Bullsh!t." I don't know where that came from. Maybe I'm reading too much into others' posts.
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| | | 38 | jedman
ID: 552262217 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 12:12
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Then why put trials on hold for 120 days, that's 1/3 of the time he's given to get it closed?
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| | | 39 | Perm Dude
ID: 47047238 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 12:18
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They need to put the trials on hold for review since the new Administration is now the prosecutors in the trials.
It very well could be that they will proceed with trials in many cases. It really won't take all that much time. But the new Administration wants to look it all over. This still gives them plenty of time to move things along one way or the other.
The big thing the year does is tell the attorneys to get off the pot.
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| | | 40 | walk
ID: 181472714 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 13:15
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Right, for example, they are allowing testimony obtained through "coercive techniques" (some of which are defined as torture by others).
What Tree and Texas Flood said: Try them, and them imprison them if they are guilty and free them if they are not. What are we afraid of here? Secret prisons and detainment without charges is not the American way!
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| | | 41 | Jag
ID: 280452215 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 13:22
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Texas Flood is right on the mark. If tried and found guilty, then put in an American prison, their life expectancy would be that of a fly.
Pancho, for years now I have seen nothing but hate threads coming from the Left and you remain silent. Be consistent or shut up.
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| | | 42 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 13:26
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Texas Flood is right on the mark. If tried and found guilty, then put in an American prison, their life expectancy would be that of a fly.
so, what's your point? they shouldn't be tried and imprisoned, but rather, just imprisoned in a special prison?
Pancho, for years now I have seen nothing but hate threads coming from the Left and you remain silent. Be consistent or shut up.
lol. outstanding. this, from Jag.
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| | | 43 | Perm Dude
ID: 47047238 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 13:31
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That's pretty funny stuff. Continue to "be silent" or "shut up."
If tried and found guilty, then put in an American prison, their life expectancy would be that of a fly.
We have a number of terrorists in American jails right now, such as those involved in the 1993 WTC attack. Try them, indeed. I'm glad Jag can come over to what Democrats have been saying for years now.
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| | | 44 | walk
ID: 181472714 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 13:44
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Jag, dissin' PV? He's centered, researched and user-friendly. Whatyre talking about there?
So, as Tree & PD point out, if you agree with TF, then what's the issue here? This whole thread becomes moot. Just as moot as Gitmo. We do not need a special prison. Our supermax prisons can handle these detainees...when they are charged, tried and convicted (if proven guilty). Give justice a chance.
Or, were you just having another go at us liberals to see our hackles raised?
I'll also recant my "I hate Bush" comment. What Tree more eloquently said: "I hate what he did to our country (although realize his intent was good (as if)); I hate his arrogance and incompetence, but I don't hate him personally."
I mean, we don't want to go out and have a parade with he Gitmo detainees...just charge 'em, try 'em and imprison 'em if found guilty, like every other alleged criminal.
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| | | 45 | walk
ID: 181472714 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 13:47
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More Debate
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| | | 46 | walk
ID: 181472714 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 13:59
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Two of the five persons contributing to the debate linked to in #45 are on the conservative side, and they make some interesting points. (Of course, none of their points were about pandering to liberals). One is that the charges against the alleged terrorists could be intangible and not "fit" in a regular court of law (which makes me wonder if the charges and evidence are bogus). The similar view is that we are in war, and in war, we got to capture or kill our enemy, and in doing so, some injustices will be made (just part of the equation).
I think the war thing is an excuse for indefinite detainment. These views fail to consider what a more liberal contributor indicated, which is how the very existence of Gitmo is potentially stoking anti-American hatred leading to more and more terrorist recruitments. There are other arguments in favor of closing Gitmo that we have already discussed here.
Interesting reading.
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| | | 47 | Jag
ID: 280452215 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 14:14
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If someone wants to chastise all of us for partisan attacks, I have no problem with it, but to single out just conservatives and ignore the years of horrid hate speech by the Liberals is hypocritical.
We couldn't convict O.J. with a mountain of evidence (I guess according to PD's definition, he is innocent) I can't see how we can keep even one detainee. We have greatly decreased the number of insurgent attacks and I fear this could energize them.
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| | | 48 | walk
ID: 181472714 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 14:40
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Jag, So, like some of the folks in the link #45, you feel that our American legal system, with the burden of proof on the accuser, would not be able to convict these enemy combatants, so they would be set free, and therefore reinforce their ranks, correct? It's a potentially valid point.
I think that though, our fears cannot drive us to act inhumanely and in ways that are against our constitutional and moral beliefs. We have to rely on our values or otherwise, we have stooped down to a low that we think is equivalent to our enemies. I don't want to free them, but I don't want to have secret prisons and detainment without charges. I don't want torture. We have to do this right.
And about the partisan attacks. C'mon, who are you kidding? We don't start threads like the one's you start, with your provocative anti-liberal bashing themes, and with folks like Limbaugh and Coulter on the radio and internet, there's plenty of bashing both ways. I am not ignoring the likes of Keith Olbermann, who has become a satire of himself in his relentless mockery of the republicans, who dishes it out ont he liberal side. However, he at least does not hate conservatives like the way Limbaugh and Coulter hate liberals. I claim it's still harsher and more bigoted from the Malkin's of the world than from the Olbermann's. Much harsher.
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| | | 49 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 15:04
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If someone wants to chastise all of us for partisan attacks, I have no problem with it, but to single out just conservatives and ignore the years of horrid hate speech by the Liberals is hypocritical.
Good point, Jag. Rather than responding to a current post, I should go back into the archives and search for attacks by liberals so as to not be hypocritical.
And I should do this because I care about the opinion of an obsessively neurotic political neophyte?
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| | | 50 | walk
ID: 181472714 Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 16:03
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49=Funny.
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| | | 51 | Jag
ID: 280452215 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 00:04
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Try looking at any post by Tree, Zen or Sarge, it will not take much research.
There is no question on whether Gitmo should be closed, it should remain open. I made the title relevant to what I wanted to discuss. Maybe I should have made it more exact by naming the post 'Is Obama pandering to left or is he really this stupid.'
There is no middle ground between socialist Liberals and Conservatives, the truth will almost always fall between Moderates and Conservatives. I don't know your political leanings, but you got the elitest Liberal attitude down pat. Now if you can just be wrong on every political arguement, you will have the whole package.
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| | | 52 | walk
ID: 139332920 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 08:44
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C'mon, Jag...that's just partisan drivel, and you know it. After about 50 of these such posts, you usually come back saying: "Ok, what I really meant to say was..."
I am not a socialist, and there are far more socialist programs implemented by Cheney-Bush than by Obama. Does that make them socialists...?
Gitmo closing is not a socialist thing; it's not a liberal thing. It's whether you think it's inhumane, consistent or inconsistent with our American justice system and values, and whether you think we can effectively have security without having Gitmo and other secret prisons/rendition.
When you label and paint people into corners, you lower the discourse...and you know it (and seemingly like it!).
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| | | 53 | Baldwin
ID: 140312221 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 09:16
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Hey, PD...how many bomb throws away are you from Murtha's district?
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| | | 54 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 10:40
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Try looking at any post by Tree, Zen or Sarge, it will not take much research.
please...any of the above three are more moderate and level headed than you, and their posts show considerably less bias.
I made the title relevant to what I wanted to discuss. Maybe I should have made it more exact by naming the post 'Is Obama pandering to left or is he really this stupid.'
fine. i was going to bring this up earlier, but felt it was pointless.
i guess i should bring it up. do you even know what "pander" means? it's doing something to provide gratifcation for others...Obama is doing for other reasons than that, from his own, to the fact, Gitmo is FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG TO EVERYTHING WE BELIEVE IN THIS COUNTRY.
how many bomb throws away are you from Murtha's district?
and how long are you going to continue to play the silly and outdated fear and paranoia card?
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| | | 55 | Perm Dude
ID: 47047238 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 11:08
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Are you going to be in the neighborhood, Baldwin?
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| | | 56 | Texas Flood
ID: 100151217 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 12:28
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Battlefield combatants belong in Gitmo. Those swept up as part of a general round up should not be held without a valid reason, or should have never been detained in the first place. It would another burden on the already overextended taxpayers to give all of these detainees a trial, not to mention overloading the court system.
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| | | 57 | Perm Dude
ID: 47047238 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 13:09
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Not as much money as keeping them in Gitmo without any resolution.
Try them, and incarcerate the guilty. Not doing so puts a serious question mark on our committment to bring a just and free society to the Middle East.
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| | | 58 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 17:01
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btw, let's go back to the lie that started this thread:
They know 61 of those released have already returned to fighting.
it was a hallmark of the Bush regime to stretch the truth as far as possible, to the point where it wasn't truth anymore. it was also a hallmark of their supporters to believe that lock, stock, and two smoking barrels.
looks like the report saying 61 have already returned to fighting was more of the same..
from the article: The report, released days before President Obama took office, says 18 former detainees are confirmed to have participated in attacks, and 43 are suspected to have been involved in attacks.
and
Peter Bergen, a national security expert and CNN analyst, notes that of the 18 people the Pentagon says are confirmed to have engaged in terrorism, only a handful of names have been released.
If one accepts that all 18 on the "confirmed" list have returned to the battlefield, that would be 4 percent of the detainees who have been released, Bergen said...
...Bergen said some of those "suspected" to have returned to terrorism are so categorized because they publicly made anti-American statements, "something that's not surprising if you've been locked up in a U.S. prison camp for several years."
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| | | 59 | Perm Dude
ID: 47047238 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 18:31
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I guess I've been busy killing Americans too, by Jag's definition...
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| | | 60 | astade
ID: 191134222 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 19:42
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Not the type of celebrities I want to see on video.
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| | | 61 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 21:45
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perhaps if they'd gone to trial, they wouldn't have been released...
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| | | 62 | walk
ID: 181472714 Mon, Jan 26, 2009, 10:07
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Smerconish: Keep Torture as an Option
I don't agree with this point-of-view (and particularly the circular reasoning in the last paragraph), but try and give the other side's view on occasion.
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| | | 63 | walk
ID: 181472714 Tue, Jan 27, 2009, 09:38
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WSJ: Gitmo is Not a Blot on American Honor
Another similar view that we should not close Gitmo. I don't understand the black & white thinking that closing down Gitmo means releasing alleged terrorists. Where are the discussions of the gray areas?
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| | | 64 | walk
ID: 181472714 Tue, Jan 27, 2009, 09:39
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And There's Bagram in Afghanistan
Another potentially more troubling prison. It's complex as Obama, and Bush put it, but I think we need to figure out ways to charge and try those we capture.
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| | | 65 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Tue, May 19, 2009, 09:07
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Billings Gazette 4/23/09Economic development officials in Hardin are looking at the soon-to-close detention facility in Guantanamo Bay as a possible fix for the jail sitting empty in Hardin.
President Barack Obama signed an executive order Jan. 22 to close the Guantanamo detention facilities in Cuba where hundreds of enemy combatants have been held since 2002. The closure is to occur in a year, during which time remaining detainees must be returned to their home countries or detained elsewhere.
Meanwhile, a 460-bed detention facility sits empty in Hardin. Built by Two Rivers Authority, the city's economic development arm, the facility was meant to bring economic development to Hardin by creating more than 100 high-paying jobs.
While leaders continue to look for contracts to open the jail, which was completed in 2007, people in Hardin have approached Two Rivers executive director Greg Smith saying they have the answer: Get the contract to hold those prisoners from Guantanamo.
Smith said he started looking into the process to contract - which still isn't clear - and has talked to other possible players, including federal agencies and staffs of the Montana congressional delegation.
Smith said Two Rivers Detention Center is a modern, empty facility. It is built so that with just minor conversions it can be upgraded from medium to higher security. Because the detainees would be the only prisoners in the facility, it would be easy to accommodate prisoners' dietary, language and religious requirements.
If someone were to escape, Smith said, there aren't any huge buildings nearby to dodge into. Montana is pretty homogenous, so detainees, many of Middle Eastern descent, would not easily blend into crowds, he said.
And bringing detainees to this area has happened before, Smith said. There were prisoner-of-war camps in Laurel during World War II. There were also internee camps in Missoula and near Powell, Wyo.
Offering a turnkey facility is practically a patriotic duty, Smith said.
"We're offering our president an option," he said. "If he wants it, we have it available. We want to step forward and say, 'Mr. President, we have a solution. How can we make it happen?' "
Smith said there's really no reason for Hardin not to be considered. But Montana's Congressional delegation (all of two senators and one House rep) won't have it. Billings gazette 4/24/09:The congressmen said they understand the need to create jobs and to fill the $27 million facility but that bringing in people identified as federal security threats is not worth the trade-off.
In a letter to Two Rivers, Sen. Max Baucus said "we're not going to bring Al-Qaeda to Big Sky Country - no way, not on my watch."
Sen. Jon Tester said he is "against any proposal to bring Guantanamo detainees to Montana."
Rep. Denny Rehberg said the detainees are terrorists and "we should be doing everything possible to keep them out of our country, let alone our state."
Two Rivers Executive Director Greg Smith said the responses don't surprise him but that he still thinks Hardin is a viable option.
U.S. Marshal Dwight MacKay said he is opposed, "given the resources we have." The U.S. Marshals Service is likely to be responsible for helping to move the prisoners, he said.
MacKay's term as marshal may be running out as Obama's appointees are beginning to be named. MacKay is a Republican.
"My personal view, not speaking as marshal, I believe it would be inappropriate to consider to bring these types of prisoners to Hardin or any other community in Montana," he said.
Among MacKay's concerns is the transportation issue - not just getting detainees into Montana, but ferrying them between Hardin and Billings for what could be hundreds of pretrial motions and trials.
The James F. Battin U.S. Courthouse in Billings is not designed for the level of security needed, MacKay said, because prisoners can't be completely separated from the public. That would only get worse if more detainees - and high-risk people at that - were brought in, he said. The detainees have to be moved within a year, and a new federal courthouse in Billings won't be built for several years.
"These are not the normal Joe Six-Pack meth users," MacKay said. "This is a different league of people that can be considered a national threat. We have to take the proper steps to ensure the safety of our community, the safety of our courts, the safety of our U.S. attorneys."
He's also not sure how the judges would be able to keep up with the additional cases.
Local court officials have described Montana's federal courts as among the five busiest in the nation and have said that during some years judges here have tried more criminal jury cases than any other federal court in the nation.
Baucus said taking these cases to court would be "taxing not only our Montana federal judges but also potentially additional defense attorneys and prosecutors."
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| | | 66 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Tue, May 19, 2009, 09:14
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More recent corrections department developments in MT:Montana Rep. Denny Rehberg wants the state to consider sending inmates to an empty jail in Hardin.
Rehberg, a Republican, wrote Democratic Gov. Brian Schweitzer asking him to consider utilizing the Two Rivers Detention Center to meet expected prison housing needs.
The Montana Corrections Advisory Council last week endorsed a plan for 920 new prison beds in the state. An outside consultant's report concluded that up to 3,500 beds will be needed by 2025 to house secure, treatment and community corrections populations. The council was told that the first phase of construction would cost $243 million.
"It's a little hard to understand why the state is considering building new prisons while a brand new facility sits empty in Hardin," Rehberg said in a statement. "As a Montana taxpayer, I want my tax dollars be spent efficiently, and unless we're considering every option, there is going to be duplication and waste. Hardin wants the prisoners. Apparently Montana needs the space. Let's cut through the bureaucracy and sit down together to find a workable solution."
Rehberg [also -mith] wrote the commissioner of the Alaska Department of Corrections asking for a site visit. TRA plans to respond to a request for proposals to house Alaska inmates that are currently in Arizona. Last year he wrote the Federal Bureau of Prisons in support of Hardin's effort to house low-security federal prisoners. That contract would have required expanding the facility. He also wrote the Idaho Governor's office last year about the potential of that state needing prison space.
UPDATE 8 a.m. The Schweitzer administration has responded to the letter from Rep. Denny Rehberg with a letter of its own on the Hardin jail issue.
Department of Corrections Director Mike Ferriter said in a Tuesday letter that the state does not have the large number of extra prisoners right now that Hardin would need. And he said the Hardin facility is a jail, and is not suitably built for the long-term imprisonment of inmates.
Ferriter said most of the Hardin jail consists of pods designed to hold up to two dozen inmates, a layout the state says lacks the sufficient security of prison cells for one or two inmates. He said DOC consultants found the facility would need "extensive remodeling" to meet state standards.
Ferriter said Rehberg should focus his congressional efforts on persuading the federal government to house some of its inmates in Hardin.
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| | | 68 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Wed, May 20, 2009, 11:38
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Cowardice:QUESTION: If the United States -- if the United States thinks that these people should be held, why shouldn’t they be held in the United States? Why shouldn’t the U.S. take those risks, the attendant risk of holding them, since it’s the one that says they should be held?
REID: I think there’s a general feeling, as I’ve already said, that the American people, and certainly the Senate, overwhelmingly doesn’t want terrorists to be released in the United States. And I think we’re going to stick with that.
QUESTION: What about in imprisoned in the United States?
REID: If you’re...
(CROSSTALK)
REID: If people are -- if terrorists are released in the United States, part of what we don’t want is them be put in prisons in the United States. We don’t want them around the United States.
REID: I’m saying that the United States Senate, Democrats and Republicans, do not want terrorists to be released in the United States. That’s very clear.
QUESTION: No one’s talking about releasing them. We’re talking about putting them in prison somewhere in the United States.
REID: Can’t put them in prison unless you release them.
QUESTION: Sir, are you going to clarify that a little bit? I mean (OFF-MIKE).
REID: I can’t -- I can’t -- I can’t make it any more clear than the statement I have given to you. We will never allow terrorists to be released in the United States. I think the majority -- I speak for the majority of the Senate.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) because if a detainee -- if a detainee is adjudicated not to be a terrorist, could that detainee then enter the United States?
REID: Why don’t we wait for a plan from the president? All we’re doing now is nitpicking on language that I have given you. I’ve been as clear as I can. I think I’ve been pretty clear.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) what have you heard about (OFF-MIKE)
REID: What you want me to be is not very clear.
QUESTION: But Senator, Senator, it’s not that you’re not being clear when you say you don’t want them released. But could you say -- would you be all right with them being transferred to an American prison?
REID: Not in the United States.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
REID: I think I’ve had about enough of this.
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| | | 69 | Seattle Zen
ID: 204102011 Wed, May 20, 2009, 12:24
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From what I've gathered, there is a portion of the 250 or so left that did commit crimes against the US and will be tried. The remaining people are not terrorists but we have not found a country who will take them and they are not to be sent back to the country of their origin.
Here's my crazy idea that I think will make Democrats and Republicans happy. Take the ones to be tried and place them in American prisons and start their trials in the next 90 days. Spread them around the country so we can try them all simultaneously.
As for the other ones, simply open the gates of Gitmo and let them loose in Cuba. Take down the US flag and leave the gate open on our way out. Let Cuba figure out what to do with them.
Harry Reid is acting childishly right now with all this "release them in America" disingenuousness. America is the prison capital of the universe, I think we can keep these people secure.
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| | | 71 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Wed, May 20, 2009, 13:09
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The 6 Senators who voted No on McConnell's amendment to the supplimental apropriations bill To prohibit funding to transfer, release, or incarcerate detainees detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to or within the United States. (Final tally was 90-6):
Durbin (D-IL) Harkin (D-IA) Leahy (D-VT) Levin (D-MI) Reed (D-RI) Whitehouse (D-RI)
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| | | 72 | Building 7
ID: 471052128 Wed, May 20, 2009, 15:11
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Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is part of the United States.
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| | | 73 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Wed, May 20, 2009, 15:17
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But... but... I thought we were holding them there so they wouldn't be subject to, you know... laws.
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| | | 74 | Perm Dude
ID: 174121611 Wed, May 20, 2009, 15:47
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GITMO is not part of the United States. It is an overseas military base. Unlike embassies, the land on which military bases sit is not considered US soil.
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| | | 75 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 20, 2009, 16:16
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it is actually on lease from Cuba.
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| | | 76 | Building 7
ID: 471052128 Wed, May 20, 2009, 17:04
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McCane was born on an overseas military base. If it is not U.S. soil, how can he be a natural born citizen. So both candidates were not eligible to run for President?
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| | | 77 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, May 21, 2009, 16:32
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Hilzoy on yesterday's foiled NYC terror plot news: This raises the difficult question: what should we do with these would-be terrorists while they await trial? And if they are convicted, what then? I assume that if it's too dangerous to move people at Guantanamo to the United States, it must be much too dangerous to allow these jihadists to run loose in our prisons. After all, they might provide financing for other jihadists from their supermax cells, or radicalize other prisoners, or use special Terrorist Mind Control Techniques to create a whole army of brainwashed convicts under their complete control.
I'd suggest killing them, cutting them into pieces, and shipping their parts to parts unknown immediately (trials? who can afford trials under these circumstances?), if I weren't afraid that some hitherto unknown al Qaeda trick might allow their reanimated body parts to slither around in search of one another and, eventually, reconstitute themselves as the Islamofascist Undead. Earlier, I thought we should send prisoners into space, but that was before I realized that that would allow them to join forces with the Klingons.
In fact, I can't think of a single thing to do that would not make matters worse.
We're doomed.
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| | | 78 | Perm Dude
ID: 174121611 Thu, May 21, 2009, 16:38
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#76: McCain was a US citizen from birth, as his parents were both US citizens. Children born of two US citizens have US citizenship themselves from birth regardless of where they are born.
Obama, of course, was born in Hawaii and is therefore a US citizen from birth.
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| | | 79 | Razor
ID: 371502414 Thu, May 21, 2009, 16:47
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re: 77 - First time I've heard anyone state the obvious, which is that adding 300 or 400 terrorists to our prisons is not going to make anyone less safe considering we have tens of thousands of murders, rapists and pedophiles already there.
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| | | 80 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, May 21, 2009, 16:52
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Razor
Then you missed post 70. It's also a point that Jon Stewart has repeatedly made in recent weeks. He's comedically (but that makes it no less valid) noted that America might not do anything better than incarcerate people.
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| | | 81 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, May 21, 2009, 17:01
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| | | 82 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Thu, May 21, 2009, 18:54
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Re:#77 posing sardonically as someone without a clue, is considerably less funny when you actually have no clue, and liberals don't.
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| | | 83 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Thu, May 21, 2009, 19:04
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Perhaps after PD wins the mayor's office running on J-O-B-S. Guarding terrorist prisoners in his city, he should maybe advertise on Al Jazera highlighting the amenities, comercial grade prayer mats, clearly marked directions towards Mecca, amplified minarets, etc.
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| | | 84 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Thu, May 21, 2009, 22:39
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#82: Got it, she's clueless, if for no other reason (and none is offered) than because she is a liberal.
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| | | 85 | Perm Dude
ID: 174121611 Thu, May 21, 2009, 22:52
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I really don't get Boldwin's points. Typically I do (though I often disagree with them). Now it is like he's just talking to himself. In code.
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| | | 86 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, May 21, 2009, 23:19
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It's the withering intellect.
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| | | 87 | Perm Dude
ID: 174121611 Thu, May 21, 2009, 23:23
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See, now there was an opportunity to explain yourself better. But you chose, instead, to inflict harm, simply because you could.
This is the very definition of evil. Call it whatever you want: Boorish behavior, being a dick, getting on your high horse. It is wrong. Un-Christlike. And sinful.
They will know Jesus by your actions. What kind of Jesus are you showing them?
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| | | 88 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, May 21, 2009, 23:45
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Liberals who want Gitmo emptied deserve to be held to account for their alternative and I gleefully riff on the idea of you bringing them home to the Poconos. I don't understand what is so hard to follow. Perhaps you could point out what you consider the hard parts.
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| | | 89 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Thu, May 21, 2009, 23:59
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Perhaps you could point out what you consider the hard parts.
See, that's the question I should be asking you. What you mean to ask me for is the easy part.
See post 70.
Or post 77.
Or post 79.
Or post 80.
Or post 81.
Same basic point in each one. All you've offered is that you support NIMBY as a sufficient non-starter, with no need to make a case for any real underlying issue. Because then you'd have to challenge the impeccable record of our country's supermax facilities.
What's the reaction in Hardin, MT to the argument that NIMBY kills any chance of housing of GITMO convicts in the US.
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| | | 90 | Perm Dude
ID: 174121611 Fri, May 22, 2009, 00:23
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I've got a military base 10 minutes away from me. I have no problem with the detainees coming to the Army base here to be held.
I do not fear that these people will escape, any more than I fear people even more dangerous (and who have nearby friends, know the language and the country), already held in prisons across the United States, will escape.
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| | | 91 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Fri, May 22, 2009, 03:22
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Go for it! There is your winning campaign issue!
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| | | 92 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Fri, May 22, 2009, 07:33
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Irrational fear.
Holding the Republican Party together since 1872.
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| | | 94 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 22, 2009, 07:48
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It isn't just the Republicans. See #71.
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| | | 95 | Razor
ID: 371502414 Fri, May 22, 2009, 08:46
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Ya, true enough. Proof that we have a bunch of pandering, cowardly, idiot Senators. Everybody wants to appear to be the tough guy.
And you are right, MITH, I did not watch the video in #70.
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| | | 96 | sarge33rd
ID: 1349228 Fri, May 22, 2009, 09:51
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We are, are we not, still holding within the US Penal System, the master-mind behind the car bombing of the WTC?
We held Timothy McVeigh within the US Penal System, right?
We hold still, Charlie Manson, do we not?
These are but 3, died in the wool "bad" people, dangerous to many and befitting the label of "terrorist". So the claim that we "don;t want to bring terrorists into our national borders" as an argument against housing the GITMO detainees within our Penal System, is hollow, bereft of logic and has to basis in intellectual honesty.
So to those opposed I ask this simple question:
Without resorting to partisan rhetoric and sound-bites; put forth an intelligent argument against the US confinement, of US prisoners/detainees, within our Penal System.
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| | | 97 | sarge33rd
ID: 1349228 Fri, May 22, 2009, 09:52
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...and has to basis in...
to = no
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| | | 98 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, May 22, 2009, 10:10
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Can someone please explain to me in a paragraph or less why nobody wants the prisoners in there state? I am confused by the whole situation. If I remember correctly I remember news crews coming to do my elementary school to do a story on foreign drug lord who as part of their imprisonment was part of a prison work crew that cleaned the school in the evenings. I think if they can let drug lords clean schools they can hold few terrorists.
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| | | 99 | Razor
ID: 371502414 Fri, May 22, 2009, 10:45
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It's purely a political move. These politicians don't want to risk losing their seats by going against public opinion and allowing prisoners to be shipped into their backyards. It's nice that we have 90 dolts looking out for their own jobs rather than looking out for the best interests of America.
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| | | 102 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, May 22, 2009, 10:54
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Since Baldwin doesn't seem willing to suggest a reason for why GITMO convicts should be imprisoned in the US, I'll offer the only two arguments I can think of;
1. that these people are so dangerous that our prisons are not equipped to hold them.
2. that these people belong to dedicated fanatical organizations with the reach and resources to attack the facilities holding their bretheren.
Assuming I'm close on that, I believe the reason B won't make the case himself is that the obvious response is supported by case after case after case from what must be the most prolific incarceration system in the history of the world. For example, aside from other notable inmates mentioned above, American prisons hold:
Paul "Roscoe" Tuilaepa... considered the most dangerous inmate in San Quentin...shot four men in a Long Beach bar in 1986, killing one, has forced four guards to retire because he beat them so badly, said Lt. Michael Barker, who is in charge of the unit. Does anyone doubt an extensive search couldn't come up with scores and scores of guys like this, every last one of whom would eat most of those GITMO detainees alive?
Regarding the supposed danger of al Qaeda striking prisons holding their members, has anyone considered that within the US, the reach, resources and organization of the national and international street gangs active in the US far surpasses that of al Qaeda? And yet we house:
Thomas SilversteinIn the six years after he was jailed for armed robbery in 1977 he killed two fellow inmates - and stabbed to death prison guard Merle Clutts. He was cleared of a third murder.
At the time of Mr Clutts' death, Silverstein was one of the leaders of the Aryan Brotherhood (AB), the most powerful white gang in the US prison system. Bloods Leader Shaidon “Don Poppa” Blake ...“He was definitely high ranking,” [Prosecutor Brian] Fish told a reporter after the hearing. “He was either on a council or worked for a council, sort of a Bloods board of directors.”
He was a “one man, nationwide crime spree,” Fish said, noting Blake’s convictions in California, Florida, and North Carolina and an open warrant in Nevada. Latin Kings Leader Luis Felipe also known as "King Blood", is the founder of the New York chapter of the Almighty Latin Kings and Queens Nation. Felipe is a Cuban immigrant who came to the United States in 1980 as part of an exodus known as the Mariel Boatlift. Six years later, in 1986, he founded the New York chapter of the Latin Kings. MS-13 Leader Victor RamirezThe evidence proved that MS-13 sent Victor Ramirez to Maryland from El Salvador as part of a plan to strengthen the MS-13 gang and expand the gang’s criminal activity,” said U.S. Attorney Rod J. Rosenstein.
According to testimony presented during trial, Ramirez was a leader in the Teclas Locos Salvatruchos (TLS) clique of MS-13 in El Salvador, and then in Maryland.
...Ramirez had been sent to Maryland to strengthen MS-13 in Maryland, ensure that MS-13 rules were being strictly followed as established by the gang leaders in El Salvador, and in particular, to make the TLS clique in Maryland more violent. In addition, once he arrived in Maryland, Ramirez was instrumental in implementing “The Program,” which was a scheme to rob and extort prostitution houses and other illegal businesses in order to collect funds for MS-13. And that's after less than an hour of searching. But if for some reason they still instsit that al Qaeda members in our prisons somehow pose a graver threat than high level leaders of the Bloods, Aryan Brotherhood, Latin Kings and MS-13 (and surely leaders of every other active major gang in the country), what about...
Zacarias Moussaoui?
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| | | 104 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, May 22, 2009, 11:17
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i think i would rather stay in the detention center than head to a US prison. torture is all going to seem kind of relative.
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| | | 105 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, May 22, 2009, 12:07
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RNC: Closing Guantanamo will result in nuclear holocaust:
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| | | 106 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, May 22, 2009, 12:14
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For the record, the "hasty decisions" comment from Press Secretary Gibbs in the video is taken shamelessly out of context.
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| | | 108 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 22, 2009, 20:56
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Paul said a good example of what to do with alleged terrorists was set with the individuals involved in the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993.
“I mean, we even went into Pakistan, arrested them, brought them over here, tried them in our court system, and they're not our neighbors,” Paul pointed out. “They are in a federal prison and nobody feels threatened by them. So, I'm not so sure why they are so determined not to pursue the law.”
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| | | 109 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 22, 2009, 20:56
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Still waiting for Baldwin to explain the hard part.
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| | | 110 | Pancho Villa
ID: 6442219 Fri, May 22, 2009, 22:11
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Closing Guantanamo will result in nuclear holocaust
That's why it's so funny when Baldwin makes the 'liberals are ruled by emotionalism ' claim.
This current crop of conservatives are so emotionally driven that they almost appear to live a separate reality. And the emotions they most display - hatred, fear, anger and paranoia - polarizes them from the center of American political thought, even though they insist that they, and only they, represent true American values, ethics and principles. Even moderate Republicans(RINOS) are painted as usurpers unworthy of the conservative mantle.
They're ruled by emotion, but they're currently an emotional wreck.
I present as Exhibit A, this exchange from another thread:
LEVIN: Yeah, sure, he can do whatever he wants. Let me ask you a question. Why do you hate this country?
CALLER: No, I love this country.
LEVIN: (angrily shouting) I SAID WHY DO YOU HATE MY COUNTRY! WHY DO YOU HATE MY CONSTITUTION? WHY DO YOU HATE MY DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE?
You just said it. He can blow off Congress. He can do whatever he wants, right?
CALLER: Well, he seems to, he just moved (inaudible).
LEVIN: Answer me this, are you a married woman? Yes or no?
CALLER: Yes.
LEVIN: Well I don’t know why your husband doesn’t put a gun to his temple. Get the hell out of here.
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| | | 111 | sarge33rd
ID: 21444238 Sat, May 23, 2009, 09:48
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still awaiting a reply to 96 above
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| | | 112 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Sat, May 23, 2009, 14:31
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Sarge
1) Those particular prisoners teach terrorism inside the system. Do a count of the number of prisoners who have become muslims in prison and ask yourself if you want them being taught by al queda.
2) Those combatants have large numbers of fellow combatants on the outside without any hesitation to attack the facilities their fellows are in. No more Mike Spanns.
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| | | 113 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311 Sat, May 23, 2009, 15:25
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Apparently "muslim" = "terrorism" in Baldwin-world.
Perhaps he missed the memo: Of the number of innocent detainees (i.e., those released by the US), about 15% have gone into terrorist activities and have been caught by the US.
Let's make sure we have the timeline correct:
These people were:
-innocent of terrorist activities; -detained by the US (often for years), subjected to torture; -released by the US; -took up terrorist activities as a result.
We are making terrorists. What an naive idiot you are, Baldwin, for continuing to trust such people as who advocate this behavior to keep us "safe."
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| | | 114 | Razor
ID: 583182923 Sat, May 23, 2009, 16:47
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What on Earth makes anyone think that terrorists are going to launch attacks on US prisons? Do you really think high level Al Qaeda leaders have been plotting to spring former operatives who have been in custody for years? Not only have they certainly moved on, but that's just not how terrorists operate. Terrorists MO is to go after civilians, you know, to incite terror. They are not a military force who keeps tabs on their own at all times as we do.
The nonsensical sentiments Baldwin expresses are those whose logic has been overcome by fear. Many of the terrorists detained at Guantanamo likely cannot even speak English, yet people fear that they might convert prisoners. What?
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| | | 115 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, May 23, 2009, 16:58
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Agreed Razor. As noted above, there is no shortage of leaders from such organizations as the Latin Kings, MS-13, The Bloods, The Crips, the Aryan Brotherhood and others who are currently incarcerated in American prisons. And yet we've never had a supermax facility attacked.
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| | | 116 | sarge33rd
ID: 194282316 Sat, May 23, 2009, 17:28
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re 112:
So you are afraid, scared, frightened, rattled; by the very prospect of someone being taught a religion?
I dont give hoot Baldwin, if they learn macrame, Spainish, or any other topic you can name. Cripes, our prisons are already and have been for decades, an "institution of higher learning" as it pertains to criminal activity. SO WHAT?
Again, since we ALREADY house like minded and like tempered people; what about THESE particular, uncharged, untried and non-convicted persons; makes them SO obscenely dangerous; that their very presence in an American prison cell poses a national security threat?
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| | | 117 | Texas Flood
ID: 17210916 Sat, May 23, 2009, 17:50
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I would imagine if you put the Gitmo prisoners in with general populations their life spans would be fairly short. I would think they might meet the same fate a child molester at the hand of the Aryan Brotherhood, Crips, Bloods, MS13 or some other such note worthy organization.
Send em all to ADX Colorado, Rikers or San Quentin, and they would beg to go back to Gitmo.
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| | | 118 | sarge33rd
ID: 194282316 Sat, May 23, 2009, 18:00
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that TF, is probably more true and accurate than many would care to admit.
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| | | 119 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Sun, May 24, 2009, 08:02
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There are religions and there are religions. Islamism is a very strange hybrid combination of the most bloodthirsty early islam, cemented to the willpower worshipping, anti-human western philosophers that muslim intellectuals met in western universities.
This stuff should not be confused with the religion of the average muslim. If Islamism ever does infect the average muslim, it will mean world war for sure.
What is brewing in america's prisons is more troubling and dangerous than the average poster here realizes.
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| | | 120 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Sun, May 24, 2009, 08:07
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These people were:
-innocent of terrorist activities
What an naive idiot you are, Baldwin, for continuing to trust such people as who advocate this behavior to keep us "safe." - PD
Well by and large they were dressed in civilian clothes performing military operations which makes them both not subject to the geneva conventions and terrorists in my book.
Naive idiots are people who trust democrats 'to keep us safe'. Might as well farm USA security out to the French army.
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| | | 121 | Tree
ID: 51457238 Sun, May 24, 2009, 08:30
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Islamism is a very strange hybrid combination of the most bloodthirsty early islam, cemented to the willpower worshipping, anti-human western philosophers that muslim intellectuals met in western universities.
This stuff should not be confused with the religion of the average muslim. If Islamism ever does infect the average muslim, it will mean world war for sure.
honestly, the same could be said for many major religions, not the least of which is Christianity.
there is a very radical element of christianity that will murder and maim to preserve a very misguided vision of christianity.
that being said, and i could be mistaken, this could be first time you've actually acknowledged there are two distinctly different groups who follow Islam.
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| | | 122 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Sun, May 24, 2009, 08:39
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Tree
I've been distinguishing Salafism and Wahabi Islam from mainstream Islam for longer than you knew the difference between Sunni and Shiite.
And you and I both have never met the christian you are describing, and I talk to a lot of people.
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| | | 124 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311 Sun, May 24, 2009, 09:54
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Well by and large they were dressed in civilian clothes performing military operations which makes them both not subject to the geneva conventions and terrorists in my book.
Better get a new book. People engaging in terrorist activities, suspected of engaging in activities, or innocent people who are suspected of knowing information about terrorist activities, aren't released by the US military. They aren't tried either, but they certainly aren't released.
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| | | 125 | Tree
ID: 51457238 Sun, May 24, 2009, 10:46
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And you and I both have never met the christian you are describing, and I talk to a lot of people.
but you've met Muslims like this? i sure haven't.
i just read about them in the news, like i do Eric Rudolph or Fred Phelps or or James Wickstrom or Robert Mathews or various militia groups and so on and so forth..
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| | | 126 | J-Bar
ID: 49456257 Mon, May 25, 2009, 09:44
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This is too easy, close Gitmo, each (all of them are non criminals according to some) should have no restrictions to returning to their home of origin and therefore we give them their passport and a plane ticket. The only caveat being that they will never be permitted entry in the USA. Whatever is done at the airport they land in c'est la vie.
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| | | 127 | J-Bar
ID: 49456257 Mon, May 25, 2009, 20:44
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Did not mention that somehow the news was that we broke all of them and they cooperated fully to gain their release.
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| | | 128 | Tree
ID: 41371322 Tue, May 26, 2009, 10:22
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Baldwin - no response to 125? and please, spare us the insult you're dying to hurl my way. instead, just respond, ok?
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| | |
| | | 130 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Tue, May 26, 2009, 15:45
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If you were in a muslim country you'd have no problem finding islamists. Just pick the ones with OBL on their T-shirts. In every marketplace.
On the lips of every Saudi funded mosque leader.
Not few and far between.
I'm not going to be visiting every day. Which doesn't mean the trolls are winning. It means they aren't worth visiting.
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| | | 131 | Tree
ID: 41371322 Tue, May 26, 2009, 16:03
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than you for 130.
you've confirmed that you've no more met radical muslims than i have radical christians.
btw, eric rudolph wore jeans and a t shirt a lot.
me too. guess either i'm a radical christian, or i blend in.
and obviously, the reason you that you're running is because people you constantly deride as beneath you, are taking you to school.
enjoy your faith, fraud.
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| | |
| | | 133 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311 Sun, May 31, 2009, 18:46
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Worth a separate thread, so I started one.
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| | | 135 | Bauxman
ID: 2110171217 Sun, Nov 15, 2009, 19:50
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There are plenty of things the Obama Administration is doing to instill fear into people. Additional topics are not needed.
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| | | 137 | sarge33rd
ID: 1510141619 Mon, Nov 16, 2009, 20:29
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from your link PD:
"Civilian federal courts are the proper forum for terrorism cases," they wrote
Gee, how many times has the Left said over the past 9 years, that terrorism is CRIME and terrorist suspects need to be handled accordingly?
"We are confident that the government can preserve national security without resorting to sweeping and radical departures from an American constitutional tradition that has served us effectively for over two centuries."
And is this not the same cry made by the Left re preserving our Constitutional processes, which has been voiced over those same 9 years?
It is genuinely refreshing to see that SOME on the Right, have begun to recognize the American way vs the dictatorial road we were dangerously close to treading.
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| | | 140 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 07:23
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"And God help us if they get off on a technicality because of the way the evidence was gathered." - Huckabee I genuinely LOL at this one. I suppose this is Obama's fault, too? - PD Yeah, you don't let Osama off because they forgot his miranda warning or they didn't have a court ordered phone tap.
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| | | 141 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 09:45
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Let me run it through the BS translator, which actually modifies it only slightly: "God help us if they get off on a technicality that we don't actually have any evidence".
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| | | 142 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 09:51
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The best way to bring terrorists to justice and be a beacon of hope for the world is to apply our laws consistently throughout the process.
The reason the rule of law works is that we can be certain that by providing consistent rules of evidence, defendant rights, an open process, and so on, that the people being found guilty are, in fact, guilty of the crimes they are convicted of.
This drive toward cutting corners merely makes it seem as though we lack the balls to bring people to justice once we have them in a cell.
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| | | 143 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 17:09
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Miranda rights barely make any sense for citizens let alone on the unconventional warfare battlefield.
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| | | 144 | sarge33rd
ID: 25015716 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 17:15
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And what precisely is wrong with advising an accused person of their Constitutional Rights?
Police are free to lie to a suspect in order to try and elicit information. It's all part of the process. What exactly is wrong, with telling someone they have the right to NOT say anything without legal counsel present?
Many an innocent person, has encountered MAJOR hassles when they "cooperated" with an investigation. Having worked Criminal Law from the enforcement side (not the courtroom side and Military vs civilian), I'd advise ANYONE being questioned, to have an Atty present before they say ANYTHING.
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| | | 145 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 17:20
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If they just murdered yer mom, and got off scotfree because they started confessing before they could be mirandized...you might see it.
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| | | 146 | bibA
ID: 01116297 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 17:25
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A suspect is given his Miranda rights prior to questioning. I probably conducted well over a thousand suspect interviews during my time as a detective. You would be shocked at what a small percentage invoke their rights and either refuse to talk about their case, or ask for an attorney.
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| | | 147 | sarge33rd
ID: 25015716 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 17:25
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You mean they confessed in the 1 second interim between the officer saying
"You're under arrest for XXXXXXXXX."
(inhale)
"You have the right to remain silent......"
You picture an entire confession in that brief moment while the officer inhales to recite Miranda????? (Or, are you assuming the officer entirely neglects his legal duty to do so?)
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| | | 148 | bibA
ID: 01116297 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 17:28
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Re Boldwin's comment in 145, if a suspect had just murdered his mom, and blurts that out prior to evidence making it apparent that he was the culprit, it would not be thrown out. At least in Calif.
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| | | 149 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 17:42
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If they just murdered yer mom, and got off scotfree because they started confessing before they could be mirandized...you might see it.
and if your son had just confessed to a murder he didn't commit due to coercion by the police, YOU might see it.
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| | | 150 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 19:32
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I'm from Chicago.
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| | | 151 | Mith
ID: 159201318 Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 23:32
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Honestly how often does this sort of thing happen in federal court? [Note - that's not a request for an anecdote, or for a handful of anecdotes.] Is it even an issue? I'm sure you could show significant me that some number of criminal cases in state courts are thrown out on technicalitles, but my understanding is such things are not common in federal cases. Am I mistaken?
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| | | 152 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 18:34
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Do you guys actually imagine if Sarge was in military intelligence he would be giving miranda warnings to captured POW's? Do you guys think the CIA treated spies caught retrieving a dead drop to a miranda warning? Blowing up a plane al qaeda style is much more than a criminal act. It is unconventional warfare. It's conduct was not covered by the Geneva conventions nor do the US Constitution protections for citizens directly apply to foreign unconventional warriors.
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| | | 153 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 18:40
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And for the record the Geneva conventions were an incentive for troops to behave within certain boundaries so that they would be rewarded by being themselves treated in a less barbaric manner. Rewarding people who are deliberately flouting those rules, with those rewards, actually makes the world less civilized, not moreso.
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| | | 154 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 19:19
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Offering no incentive for the other side to act civilized which violating moral rules is a recipe for anarchy and chaos.
We should act morally because it is within us to do so and our moral behavior is not dependent upon others (you know--the whole basis of "Christianity" thing). We don't "reward" bad behavior when we act with moral behavior (just as we don't "reward" children when we don't smack them across the face with a belt every time they do wrong).
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| | | 155 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 21:20
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Blowing up a plane al qaeda style is much more than a criminal act. It is unconventional warfare. It's conduct was not covered by the Geneva conventions nor do the US Constitution protections for citizens directly apply to foreign unconventional warriors.
I think Baldwin is 100% correct on this one. I don't think it violates any moral rules to classify airline suicide bombers as enemy combatants. It's a completely different dynamic than holding those who have some kind of unspecified relations with the Taliban or even Al Qeada in Gitmo without charges year after year.
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| | | 156 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 03:15
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And I completely agree with PV's every word on that. Kumbaya
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| | | 157 | sarge33rd
ID: 3302197 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 08:21
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Do you guys actually imagine if Sarge was in military intelligence he would be giving miranda warnings to captured POW's?
Of course not. They weren't being charged with a a crime. They were captured, and treated IAW Geneva Conventions. However as an MP, when we detained an individual, we most certainly did Mirandize them at the time/point of detention.
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| | | 158 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 09:25
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when we detained an individual An American, you mean. If I were an enemy combatant being taken in by Sarge I'd be a lot more worried about getting to the stockade alive than whether I got mirandized or not.
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| | | 159 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 10:13
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Jose Padilla is (and was) and American citizen.
It should be noted that no one has been declared an enemy combatant since 2003.
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| | | 160 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 10:20
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PV - I don't think it violates any moral rules to classify airline suicide bombers as enemy combatants. It's a completely different dynamic than holding those who have some kind of unspecified relations with the Taliban or even Al Qeada in Gitmo without charges year after year.
Baldwin - And I completely agree with PV's every word on that.
so why are wasting money keeping Gitmo open?
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| | | 161 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 12:40
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I don't know the quality of military justice across the board at Gitmo. I know there have been some terrible examples of people held without justification and many many people who were released and went directly into al qaeda operations. To me the latter signifies that they were where they belonged when they were in gitmo. To liberals who are always on the lookout for why they hate us, Gitmo must be the reason. Liberals are just wrong about that. Volumes could be written and have been written making it clear why rich muslim kids from western universities and reeling from the nihilistic non-sense they are taught there, end up going back to their roots but with a whole new violent twist. Gitmo isn't building them. A confluence of the spirit and philosophies of the modern world, Saudi financed wahabi indoctrination, impotent rage and emasculation over the place of the moslem world in the current age, and Koranic end-times prophesies have infinately more to do with their motivations than does Gitmo.
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| | | 162 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 12:53
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if you are wrongly imprisoned, and held indefinitely for no particular reason other than your religion or skin color or some possibly questionable associations, you are going to come out bitter and angry.
and if you've been tortured in the process, you might come out bitter and angry enough to say "yea, wow. i guess what i've been hearing is right. these guys imprison and torture us because we're Muslim. We have to fight this!"
it's human nature.
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| | | 163 | Mith
ID: 159201318 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 15:01
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I don't think most American liberals deny the narrative in the 2nd paragraph of #161. But I reject the black and white perspective in fashion with modern rightists that there can only be one major factor for why so many released from gitmo joined the fight.
I don't see how you can reject the notion that falsely imprisoning hundreds or thousands of muslims, some held for years without ever being charged, is plenty enough to convert moderate muslims to the brink of jihad, and those already on the brink to active extremism.
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| | | 164 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 17:43
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But I reject the black and white perspective in fashion with modern rightists that there can only be one major factor for why - MITH I listed five.
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| | | 165 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 18:12
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True. Sloppy of me. But that doesn't change the greater point in the second paragraph of 163.
You're still the one with the blinders on, not me.
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| | | 166 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 18:39
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The taliban and their brethren are more a threat to the average moderate Muslim than they are to us. More than a few Egyptians would ship the muslim brotherhood to Gitmo if they could.
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| | | 167 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 18:58
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True or not, I don't believe that challenges my greater point.
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| | | 168 | sarge33rd
ID: 42050920 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 21:50
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re 158:
Since you seem to want to make this personal...
No, I dod not mean an American. I said, and I meant, an INDIVIDUAL. As an MP in Germany, my jurisdiction extended to both on base ond in the American housing area. German nationals would often be in the area. If there was cause to detain, then we did so. ALWAYS, MIRANDIZING immediately. (Even though German Law has no such requirement and in fact in Germany, the accused is presumed guilty and must prove innocence. Afterall, if you weren't guilty, then you wouldnt have been 'arrested', right?)
As for your second comment re what you would be worried about. On what factual basis do you make that kind of slanderous statement? The only way I can see to interpret it, is that you figure I'd kill a POW out of no other reason than boredom.
Either retract, and grow up a little bit Baldy; or take your biased, arrogant, obnoxious self elsewhwere. That kind of thing, is precisely what the new conduct requirements are intended to put a halt to.
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| | | 169 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 07:49
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1) In war soldiers are far less likely than is commonly presumed, to accept a surrender, forgo their natural urge for vengence for their fallen comrades and assume the duty of supporting POWS until they can be conducted to the rear for imprisonment. It's not pretty but it's the truth. 2) I know someone who actually said that when they were a soldier they enjoyed being the one who decided who lived and died. I just connect the dots.
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| | | 170 | sarge33rd
ID: 4908127 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:08
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Have you ever been in a combat zone? No. So dont tell me what some study, conducted by some academic; claims to be the mindset of those in a combat zone. Compared to "been there, done that", I dont put much weight into something contradictory to what I have seen with my own eyes.
Said they 'enjoyed' it, or said they were good at it? Dont mistake the two as being synonymous.
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| | | 171 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:14
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I remember distinctly that you said that line very early in your poliboard life. No I am not going to research it for the next 4 hours to prove it. I clearly remember it. It made a big impression on me at the time.
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| | | 172 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:18
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2) I know someone who actually said that when they were a soldier they enjoyed being the one who decided who lived and died.
and i know THREE people (two of my brothers, who served in the Israeli army; and one of my closest friends, who served in Afghanistan and Iraq and various other locales since 1991) who absolutely HATED being the person who made that decision.
being forced to make that decision sent one fleeing all the way from Israel to rural Canada, and has made the other loathe the weekends he has to go on duty. to him, the worst thing in the world is seeing someone fiddling with the fence around their compound at night, and being forced to decide whether to shoot that shadowy figure or not.
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| | | 173 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:23
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I didn't say it was a majority opinion. By no means. I said I remember Sarge saying he felt that way at the time.
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| | | 174 | sarge33rd
ID: 4908127 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:24
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No Baldy. What I most likely said, wast that it was part of my job....that I was good at my job...and that I enjoyed my job.
ALL jobs, have parts you enjoy and parts you dont. Taking anothers life...is not and should not; be easy. Nor, should it be something one 'enjoys' doing.
I probably also said, that it was no small part in my abandoning the teachings of the church. In that my job, put me in the position of making those decisions and in affect 'playing gawd'. Apparently, THAT didnt make an impression on you, as you have repeatedly over the years made weak attempts at insulting my non-religious position. Now, you take my words and twist them in another weak effort to belittle me.
Grow up Baldy. You are not the center of the world, you are not "all knowing" and you are not correct in your current posturing.
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| | | 175 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:35
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I wasn't paraphrasing. I remember that exact position.
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| | | 176 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 15:30
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murder not suicide not sure if anyone saw this or not.
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| | | 177 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:30
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Sounds like the waterboarding goes lethal now and then. But why all at once like that? Someone fed the Feds a juicy whopper and the interogators went Dirty Harry to figure it out?
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| | | 179 | Boldwin
ID: 103311210 Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 20:31
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This is what happens when an administration is more interested in prosecuting CIA interrogators than in questioning captured top al qeada leaders.
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| | | 180 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 20:36
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From the article: ""The CIA is out of the detention and interrogation business"
Good.
And to anticipate the squeal from the Far Right: Yes, I would rather a terrorist go free than continue to hold for years, without charges, hundreds of people in jails in Gitmo and in shadow jails around the world. It is wrong.
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| | | 181 | Boldwin
ID: 233241222 Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 23:24
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So you think we shouldn't interrogate the guy in the link in #179? You are *censored*.
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| | | 182 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 23:40
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I didn't say that. Surely you aren't deliberately biased against understanding my point by trying to insert your own?
The United States should get out, and stay out, of the torture business. It is an evil road. And we have no right lecturing anyone on "American exceptionalism" while we practice it. Particularly since we do so badly at it.
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| | | 183 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 23:40
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This is what the director of the CIA’s Counter-Terrorism Centre from 2004 to 2006 has to say about this administration.
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| | | 184 | Boldwin
ID: 233241222 Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 12:11
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The United States should get out, and stay out, of the torture business.
Who suggested that the USA should torture the guy?
Do you think it is a mistake not to question him?
Of course it is.
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| | | 185 | Boldwin
ID: 233241222 Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 12:22
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PV
Direct me to the part where Bush's director of the CIA’s Counter-Terrorism Centre suggests we shouldn't interrogate captured high value al qeada prisoners. Cause I missed that in your link.
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| | | 186 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 12:49
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You seem to be missing a lot of points here. Let me clarify for you: Saying that the CIA should stop doing what it shouldn't be doing (partially because they are so horrible at it) doesn't mean we should give up.
What's next: sending the Merchant Marine to blockade Tripoli and when they fail we say "guess the terrorists won!"
The CIA isn't a law and order organozation. Never was.
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| | | 187 | Boldwin
ID: 323371315 Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 16:44
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I think the CIA would be the perfect organization to do it. For the record the absolutely worst way to handle terrorists would be to assign Eric 'friend of terrorists everywhere' Holder to prosecute them.
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| | | 188 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 11:46
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When the left does Gitmo
From what I read Anders Breivik faces a maximum of 21 years which is what, less than 3 months per life taken in that prison.
Don't show those photos to the homeless.
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| | | 189 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 11:52
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(a) that isnt Gitmo (b) Norway has the lowest (or damn close to it) rewcitivism rate IN THE WORLD (c) They incarcerate less than 1/3 the people per 100,000 population that we do.
Maybe, as the evidence suggests, they know something the Right doesnt?
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| | | 190 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 12:01
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Don't show those photos to a freemason.
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| | | 191 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 12:03
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more to the point...dont show anything to Boldwin. He'll misinterpret and misrepresent it; without shame.
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| | | 192 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 13:10
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he reads WND religiously. it's all he knows. they're the kings of misinterpretations, misrepresentations, lack of research, and flat out lies.
it's all he knows. no one takes unrelated things and attempts to relate them, making him look silly. see Winehouse, Amy for a recent example.
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| | | 193 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 13:21
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"From what I read Anders Breivik faces a maximum of 21 years which is what, less than 3 months per life taken in that prison."
On a serious note, you might want to read up on forvaring.
WARNING: May not totally fit with your preconceived notions of Scandinavia = liberal and liberal = bad, therefore causing your head to explode.
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| | | 194 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 13:33
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wow. nice catch there DWetz!
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| | | 195 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 17:51
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Yeah, every country has that sort of provision for the criminally insane.
It worries me when liberals are the ones making that call.
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| | | 196 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 19:14
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Why B? With a recitivism rate that SHOULD be the envy of the world. an incarceration rate lass than 1/3 of ours......what is it you fear exactly? Being proven WRONG perhaps?
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| | | 197 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 19:35
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Well Eric Holder for one thing. Leading supplier of trained taliban terrorists. Slightly used.
Liberals in charge of incarcerating terrorists scare me.
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| | | 198 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 23:07
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Pretty sure your boy Reagan was the leading supplier to Taliban terrorists.
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| | | 199 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 00:25
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The enemy of my enemy.
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| | | 200 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421 Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 00:33
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lol THAT convenient excuse has worked SO well huh B? I mean really, where DID Osama get his equipment? Oh yeah...from us.
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| | | 201 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 01:55
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It doesn't disturb me in the least that the taliban beat the russians using stingers.
It does concern me that al qeada 9/11 'pilots' [including Atta] associated with veterans of the afghan/russia war were hanging around [CIA] Huffman Aviation in Venice Florida before 9/11 being trained there and looking for all the world like CIA assets.
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