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| Posted by: Mith
- [2894309] Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 12:52
GreenwaldWhen Congress immunized telecoms last August for their illegal participation in Bush's warrantless eavesdropping program, Senate Democratic apologists for telecom immunity repeatedly justified that action by pointing out that Bush officials who broke the law were not immunized -- only the telecoms.
Taking them at their word, EFF -- which was the lead counsel in the lawsuits against the telecoms -- thereafter filed suit, in October, 2008, against the Bush administration and various Bush officials for illegally spying on the communications of Americans. They were seeking to make good on the promise made by Congressional Democrats: namely, that even though lawsuits against telecoms for illegal spying will not be allowed any longer, government officials who broke the law can still be held accountable.
But late Friday afternoon, the Obama DOJ filed the government's first response to EFF's lawsuit (.pdf), the first of its kind to seek damages against government officials under FISA, the Wiretap Act and other statutes, arising out of Bush's NSA program. But the Obama DOJ demanded dismissal of the entire lawsuit based on (1) its Bush-mimicking claim that the "state secrets" privilege bars any lawsuits against the Bush administration for illegal spying, and (2) a brand new "sovereign immunity" claim of breathtaking scope -- never before advanced even by the Bush administration -- that the Patriot Act bars any lawsuits of any kind for illegal government surveillance unless there is "willful disclosure" of the illegally intercepted communications.
In other words, beyond even the outrageously broad "state secrets" privilege invented by the Bush administration and now embraced fully by the Obama administration, the Obama DOJ has now invented a brand new claim of government immunity, one which literally asserts that the U.S. Government is free to intercept all of your communications (calls, emails and the like) and -- even if what they're doing is blatantly illegal and they know it's illegal -- you are barred from suing them unless they "willfully disclose" to the public what they have learned.
(1) Unlike in the prior cases where the Obama DOJ embraced the Bush theory of state secrets... the motion filed on Friday was the first response of any kind to this lawsuit by the Government. Indeed, EFF filed the lawsuit in October but purposely agreed with Bush lawyers to an extension of the time to respond until April, in the hope that by making this Obama's case, and giving his DOJ officials months to consider what to do when first responding, they would receive a different response than the one they would have gotten from the Bush DOJ.
That didn't happen.
Everything for which Bush critics excoriated the Bush DOJ -- using an absurdly broad rendition of "state secrets" to block entire lawsuits from proceeding even where they allege radical lawbreaking by the President and inventing new claims of absolute legal immunity -- are now things the Obama DOJ has left no doubt it intends to embrace itself.
(2) It is hard to overstate how extremist is the "soverign immunity" argument which the Obama DOJ invented here in order to get rid of this lawsuit. I confirmed with both ACLU and EFF lawyers involved in numerous prior surveillance cases with the Bush administration that the Bush DOJ had never previously argued in any context that the Patriot Act bars all causes of action for any illegal surveillance in the absence of "willful disclosure." This is a brand new, extraordinarily broad claim of government immunity made for the first time ever by the Obama DOJ -- all in service of blocking EFF's lawsuit against Bush officials for illegal spying.
Since EFF's lawsuit is the first to sue for actual damages under FISA and the Wiretap Act, it's arguable whether this immunity argument applied to any of the previous lawsuits. What is clear, though, is that the Bush DOJ, in any context, never articulated this bizarre view that all claims of illegal government surveillance are immunized in the absence of "willful disclosure" to the public of the intercepted communications. This is a brand new Obama DOJ invention to blanket themselves (and Bush officials) with extraordinary immunity even when they knowingly break our country's surveillance laws.
(3) Equally difficult to overstate is how identical the Obama DOJ now is to the Bush DOJ when it comes to its claims of executive secrecy -- not merely in substance but also tone and rhetoric (at least in the area of secrecy; there are still important differences -- no sweeping Article II lawbreaking powers and the like -- which shouldn't be overlooked). I defy anyone to read the Obama DOJ's brief here and identify even a single difference between what it says and what the Bush DOJ routinely said in the era of Cheney/Addington (other than the fact that Bush used to rely on secret claims of national security harm from Michael McConnell whereas Obama relies on secret claims filed by Dennis Blair). Even for those most cynical about what Obama was likely to do or not do in the civil liberties realm, reading this brief from the Obama DOJ is so striking -- and more than a little depressing -- given how indistinguishable it is from everything that poured out of the Bush DOJ regarding secrecy powers in order to evade all legal accountability.
Every defining attribute of Bush's radical secrecy powers -- every one -- is found here, and in exactly the same tone and with the exact same mindset. Thus: how the U.S. government eavesdrops on its citizens is too secret to allow a court to determine its legality. We must just blindly accept the claims from the President's DNI that we will all be endangered if we allow courts to determine the legality of the President's actions. Even confirming or denying already publicly known facts -- such as the involvement of the telecoms and the massive data-mining programs -- would be too damaging to national security. Why? Because the DNI says so. It is not merely specific documents, but entire lawsuits, that must be dismissed in advance as soon as the privilege is asserted because "its very subject matter would inherently risk or require the disclosure of state secrets."
What's being asserted here by the Obama DOJ is the virtually absolute power of presidential secrecy, the right to break the law with no consequences, and immunity from surveillance lawsuits so sweeping that one can hardly believe that it's being claimed with a straight face. It is simply inexcusable for those who spent the last several years screaming when the Bush administration did exactly this to remain silent now or, worse, to search for excuses to justify this behavior.
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| | | 1 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 13:17
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I had a techie friend go ballistic over this yesterday.
I'd like to think this is lawyers being lawyers, and simply doing their jobs defending against the lawsuit in any way they can.
That said, I'm really disconcerted by this.
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| | | 2 | Perm Dude
ID: 336813 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 13:19
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Obama has to make a defense of the executive priviledge and secrecy, even if he's not drawing the line where Bush did.
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| | | 3 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 13:24
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For the record, as Glenn Greenwald pointed out yesterday, the liberal blogs and media and have not let Holder and Obama off the hook:
McJoan @ KosIt's difficult to read the administration's brief in any other way than a reinforcement--even an inflation of--the unitary executive, or to attribute it to Bush holdovers. This is first of the cases in which the DOJ attorneys aren't carrying over arguments from the previous administration--they are initiating this case. And it appears that the promises of last summer and fall when FISAAA was being argued were pretty damned empty. BoingBoing The Obama administration has filed a brief in EFF's lawsuit against the government for its program of illegal, mass wiretapping of Americans, defending the practice, arguing that the lawsuit should be dismissed, endorsing the Bush administration's invented "State Secret" theory, and augmenting it with a new theory, that "the Patriot Act bars any lawsuits of any kind for illegal government surveillance unless there is "willful disclosure" of the illegally intercepted communications." This brief was not written by Bush cronies left behind by the outgoing administration: this is an invention of the Obama administration. I don't expect the guy to walk on water, but I'd sure like it if he'd stop wallowing in the mud.
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| | | 4 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 13:26
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Even Keith Olberman does not sacrifice his principles for the sake of the president (at least not this time):
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| | | 5 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 13:27
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And perhaps even more telling than criticism from Olberman, a post at Daily Kos titled, "Olbermann Smacks Down Obama's Loss of Credibility" was, according to Greenwald, "the top recommended Kos diary today (voted by the compulsively pro-Obama Kos readership)."
Glenn also notes in his first update:Even better, Olbermann tonight will have on as a guest Kevin Bankston of EFF, the lead counsel for the plaintiffs suing Bush officials for illegal spying, which means Olbermann intends to cover this issue again tonight. Along with the ACLU and others, EFF has been truly heroic in defending the core constitutional liberties of Americans and serving as a key check on executive abuses. And I'll note that Eric Martin at Obsidian Wings praised Greenwald's post as wellFor the record, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution take precedence over Party or Party leader each and every day of the week.
But these legal maneuvers - repeating the discredited, unconstitutional arguments previously made by the Bush administration in an effort to radically expand executive power - are inexcusable and unjustifiable.
Full stop. *note* I intended to post this and my previous two posts as a single entry but I think I included too many links for Guru's filter.
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| | | 6 | Seattle Zen
ID: 7348911 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 13:54
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I'm a huge fan of Greenwald, saw him on Bill Moyer's Journal on PBS a few days ago. We are both very interested in the Bush Administration's violations of FISA and torture treaties. I haven't read the Obama DOJ response, but I am going to take a couple of guesses as to why it is parroting the Bush "legal" theories. One, it was written by career DOJ attorneys who were in the office this decade. Two, the Obama administration does not want to stick out its neck by repudiating every measure Bush took, it would like the Courts to rule against their arguments. This allows them to say, "well, the judge said that these arguments are not acceptable. We have no choice but to show exactly what happened. According to all these formerly classified documents...." It wins by losing.
I'm guessing it is reason two because the brief is using exactly the same legal arguments that Bush's DOJ touted. If Obama really wanted to continue to wiretap American citizens, if they really wanted to obliterate the FISA court, I think they would have stalled a lot longer, it would have come up with a brief that used some of Bush's arguments, but a lot more of its own. The Addington-led Bush legal team was contemptuous of courts in general and simply did not believe the FISA court could even speak to the Executive. No good lawyer would make such an arrogant, unpersuasive argument to a court. Hopefully, Obama's DOJ recognizes this is a great opportunity for the court to pull out the paddle and whack this arrogance down and they are more than willing to take that beatdown.
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| | | 7 | Frick
ID: 3410551012 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 14:19
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I'm more cynical. I think Obama and his team want to maintain the power that comes with the Executive Orders.
I used to work for a local government. There were two police forces, the City Police and the County Sheriffs. The City limits included everything in the county based on a merger of local governments in the 70s. The police forces were kept separated, the City police were tasked with the old city limits, the Sheriff with everything else. There was intense fighting regarding the merger of the two departments. The mayor wanted to maintain his ability to appoint a Chief of Police. The County Sheriff (an elected official, per the state constitution) felt he should be in charge. It took 25 years to merge the two agencies. The main reason it happened was the state legislature deciding they didn't want their powers to be questioned by a local government.
Moral of the story, the decisions on giving up and maintaining power are based on the public's interest. Their based on the desire to maintain or acquire power.
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| | | 8 | Baldwin
ID: 132854 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 14:21
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Well not exactly the same. Has it occurred to none of you that he might have an entirely different target?
Oh I dunno, how about people who support the constitution?
According to the Missouri Fusion Center [a government center which decides who should be surveilled] you might be a terrorist if...You display or use the “Gadsden Rattlesnake” Flag/Symbol. You have watched the “Anti-Federal Reserve System” - Zeitgeist Movie. You support a repeal of the 16th Amendment - the Income Tax. You supported the candidacy of Representative Ron Paul (R-TX). You are a member of The Committees of Safety. You oppose mandatory citizen service for those aged 18 to 24 per Rahm Emanuel’s proposal. You oppose the Security and Prosperity Partnership being out of the jurisdiction of Congressional oversight. You support the abolition of the FEDERAL RESERVE private central bank and favor a return to Constitutional money. You oppose any further restrictions on the inherent right to bear arms. You have watched Aaron Russo’s “America: Freedom to Fascism” You oppose any additional bailout bills for failing banks and/or private companies. It remains to be seen if includes posters at politcal internet sites in general or chief executives who have taken the oath to uphold...
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| | | 9 | Perm Dude
ID: 336813 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 14:22
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Now you are worried about who gets on the government watch list? Where were you from 2002-2008?
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| | | 10 | Baldwin
ID: 132854 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 14:25
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Where do you get the notion I wasn't concerned?
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| | | 11 | Building 7
ID: 471052128 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 14:47
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Re; #8. It looks like I have 9 reasons to be deemed a terrorist according to the Missouri Fusion Center. But, I am not a terrorist. I think there are a lot less terrorists than we are lead to believe.
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| | | 12 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 14:56
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I'm sorry, what does the Missouri Fusion Center have to do with the Obama Administration?
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| | | 13 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 14:58
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Don't get me wrong, I'm with Baldwin in his opposition to this heinous example of authoritarianism gone awry, but just because some crackpot calls it "a government center" does not make it so.
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| | | 14 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 15:35
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Am I the only one who senses certain discrepencies between what Baldwin says are unfair or unreasonable reasons for the Missouri Fusion Center to deem someone a candidate for surveilance and what he has argued are perfectly reasonable reasons, such as ethnicity?
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| | | 15 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2834196 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 16:50
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You oppose any further restrictions on the inherent right to bear arms.
Thanks for bringing that up, as I have been working on a post about that here.
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| | | 16 | Baldwin
ID: 132854 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 21:36
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MITH
A fusion center is what the dept of homeland security set up to identify threats. It is as official as it gets.
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| | | 17 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 21:39
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So DHS made those rules? But only for Missouri?
Sure.
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| | | 18 | Baldwin
ID: 132854 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 22:52
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Whatever happened to the MITH that used to be able to do basic internet research?
This reflexively calling me a liar should stop if you have any sense at all.
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| | | 19 | Perm Dude
ID: 336813 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 23:07
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I'm not seeing that DHS "set up" the center. Sounds like a partnership in which different departments on different levels combine resources and share information.
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| | | 20 | Baldwin
ID: 132854 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 23:17
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And who do you think set that up? Barney Fife?
Stop me when you realize fusion centers are for real and the official means of identifying threats...
And then you can work on apologizing to me for questioning my honesty for the bazillionth time this week.
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| | | 21 | Baldwin
ID: 132854 Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 23:20
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but just because some crackpot calls it "a government center" does not make it so. - MITH
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| | | 22 | Perm Dude
ID: 336813 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 00:20
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Stop me when you realize fusion centers are for real and the official means of identifying threats...
At what point this this fiction enter your brain? And (I'm hoping here) did it crowd out some other fiction, like Obama not being a citizen, or the Department of Education's plans to make children into little Muslims?
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| | | 23 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 11:22
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Baldwin
Interesting the changed culture around here. Used to be protocol to demand that others support their claims. Now to do so is taken as a slap in the face. Didn't mean to insult your manhood.
Whatever happened to the MITH that used to be able to do basic internet research?
Your basic research hasn't shown anything that I didn't already assume. Here's the relevant excerpt from the Wiki page:The Missouri Information Analysis Center, or MIAC is a "fusion center," combining resources from the federal Department of Homeland Security and other agencies, in particular local agencies. It collects intelligence from both the local agencies and the Department of Homeland Security and uses these combined sources to analyze threats and better combat terrorism and other criminal activity. The center opened in 2005 and is located in Jefferson City, Missouri[1]. I'm still waiting for you to show me that the Missouri Fusion Center's "surveillance" standards were written by the Obama administration, since that was your accusation. You were explicit enough:
Has it occurred to none of you that he might have an entirely different target?
Oh I dunno, how about people who support the constitution?
According to the Missouri Fusion Center [a government center which decides who should be surveilled] you might be a terrorist if...
And what's with the weird cached link in post 20? And I'm not dismissing it outright just because it looks funny (before anyone runs to that red herring) but honestly I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be reading there that you claim is proof that the Obama administration wrote the Missouri Fusion Center's "standards". Is anyone else who questions B's claims about Obama's role in the Missouri Fusion Center now satisfied by that link?
I'll try to help. I was able to copy the text (the portion partially hidden by that stuck pulldown menu in the middle of the page and also the last two paragraphs in their completion, as they have been cut off by the edge of the page) which I'll paste here:As part of the U.S. Department of Justice's (DOJ) Global Justice Information Sharing Initiative's (Global) efforts to develop fusion center guidelines, the Criminal Intelligence Coordinating Council (CICC), in support of the Bureau of Justice Assistance (BJA), Office of Justice Programs (OJP), recommended the creation of the Fusion Center Focus Group. This focus group was tasked with recommending guidelines to aid in the development and operation of fusion centers.
Concurrently, the Homeland Security Advisory Council (HSAC) Intelligence and Information Sharing Working Group focused on developing guidelines for local and state agencies in relation to the collection, analysis, and dissemination of terrorism-related intelligence in the context of fusion centers. The recommendations resulting from the HSAC's efforts assisted in the development of the fusion center guidelines. The development of guidelines for fusion centers was separated into three phases-law enforcement intelligence, public safety, and the private sector. The Fusion Center Guidelines: Law Enforcement Intelligence, Public Safety, and the Private Sector, covering all three phases, is now complete and available. These guidelines may be used for homeland security efforts, as well as all crimes. By integrating these guidelines, agencies can resolve and overcome many common obstacles. In addition, guidelines can help guide administrators in developing policies, managing resources, and evaluating services.
The ultimate goal of a fusion center is to provide a mechanism where law enforcement, public safety, and private partners can come together with a common purpose and improve the ability to safeguard our homeland and prevent criminal activity. A police officer, fireman, or building inspector should not have to search for bits of information. They should know to call one particular place-the jurisdiction's fusion center.
The Fusion Center Focus Group, whose mission was to further many of the tenets outlined in the National Criminal Intelligence Sharing Plan (NCISP), included experts and practitioners from local, state, and federal law enforcement and public safety agencies, as well as representatives from DOJ, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS), and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). In addition, members from national law enforcement and public safety organizations, the private sector, and currently operating fusion centers participated in the focus group's efforts.
The focus group members recommended that the guidelines include all crime types and that centers provide an array of intelligence services. In addition, the group recommended that centers be scalable based on the needs of the city, state, or region and should conduct tactical, operational, and strategic intelligence functions in support of criminal investigations.
OK assuming that what you believe you have provided as proof is contained in that excerpt, you're apparently confusing what the article calls The Fusion Center Guidelines (which a DHS advisory council helped develop) with the "standards" of Missouri Fusion Center for what you call "surveilance". In actuality the Missouri Fusion Center's listed "surveillance standards" are I think more likely a list of profiling characteristics, but I guess such technical differences are trivial when you have an opposition president to demonize, huh?
Anyway, the fusion center guidelines, for which the Fusion Center Focus Group is explicitly credited (in the bolded paragraph above) are listed right there on the page, and are clearly something entirely different from the list posted in #8.
Here are the 18 Fusion Center Guidelines, which DHS and DOJ had a hand in developing for Fusion Centers around the country:The NCISP and the Intelligence and Fusion Processes Mission Statement and Goals Governance Collaboration Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) and Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) Database Resources Interconnectivity Privacy and Civil Liberties Security Facility, Location, and Physical Infrastructure Human Resources Training of Center Personnel Multidisciplinary Awareness and Education Intelligence Services and Products Policies and Procedures Center Performance Measurement and Evaluation Funding Communications Plan This list of guidelines is obviously an entirely separate thing from the list you provided in #8, which, like I've already said looks to me like a list of personal characteristics or attributes to be considered in profiling domestic terrorists. One issue I've raised which you have yet to respond to (unless this is what you were talking about when you accused me of calling you a liar) is that in the past you have very strongly supported highly authoritarian profiling standards. In the old "Sarcasm Zone" and Federal Airport Security" thread started shortly after 9/11 (I didn't want to bother Guru to restore it since I don't plan on posting in it but anyone can see the thread by following either of the links provided by Guru in the "Thread Housecleaning" thread, which I butted earlier) you wrote:Post #2: I think I have another solution. Its something I like to call "ethnic profiling." My logic is this: There is a common thread hidden within 20 years of relentless attacks on America by Muslim extremists: In every one of these attacks by Muslim extremists, there appears to be one or more Muslim extremists involved. This ought to help the airlines engage in more accurate risk assessment.
Post #5: I have no problem if they racial profile to solve KKK style crimes or crimes typical of Aryan nation or Christian Identity. No point wasting time focusing anywhere else just to prove balance.
Post #32: And yes they had Reid long enuff to possibly find out he was a muslim. So profiling for muslim background [the exact form of profiling Coulter is advocating] would have led to further questions that could have placed him at the same mosque as known 9/11 conspirators and recruiters.
Post #35: Well you could notice that they come from or frequent predominantly muslim countries. Most moslem countries are well over 90% muslim so profiling for religion and ethnic bacground are not mutually exclusive undertakings.
You could notice that they come from cities that have mosques where radical islamicism is preached. Certain cities like Hamburg Germany come to mind that. Hotspots of recuitment are becoming easier to discern.
There are of course many other items that actually are being used such as one-way tickets, lack of luggage, and a host of things some of which are not being shared with the public for obvious reasons.
BTW PD and Pres are not the only gurupies informed enuff to know that large portions of the worlds muslim population reside in SE Asian countries or morally intelligent enuff to know that being swarthy does not make you a bad man. Sheesh but you libs are over-righteous.
Post #53: Like it or not easy indictors like one way tickets, cash purchase, scant baggage will surely become less predictive as terrorists addess these silly holes in their plans. So look for racial profiling to become more neccessary not less.
Post #102: When it comes to crime solving and prevention, the word profiling should not be a dirty word. Look at this" use of profiling. Notice profiling is not some simplistic the XXinsert unpopular minority hereXX did it easy substitute for real crime solving but rather a sophisticated approach.
For all the hectoring I am giving PD hes right that there are some indicators other than race in this problem. I want a computer program that targets any traveller who has ever lived in a town that has produced a terrorist, that has as complete a list as possible of everyone who has been to a mosque that has produced a terrorist, that has a list of everyone who has had contact with an organization that has been identified as funding terrorism, and I want these people so identified to receive extra scutiny. I want nervous people to receive extra scrutiny even if people with low self-esteem start complaining about discrimination. I want all young, single, men from countries that have produced terrorists [even if that includes the USA] to be singled out for increased scrutiny.
I then want these people who have been so discriminated, to be interviewed by well paid and trained, highly perceptive detectives to see if their cover stories and alibis stand up to further questioning, to see how they react to questioning, to see if further material comes to light which raises further suspicions.
Notice I did not say round up all the swarthy people. Notice however that young single male/muslim background is still overwhelmingly the single best predictor to begin narrowing down the search to a workable number.
Post #123: Like it or not I believe there is scarcely a small church that has not had every 2-5 years a stiff looking stranger in a suit and white shirt show up five minutes late and leaves five minutes early who just screams I am FBI. Doesnt bother me really unless it got out of hand with infiltration and manipulation which I would expect is only used in the most extreme cases. Now, putting aside the question of whether President Obama is responsible for your list in post 8, I'm not sure I understand the distinction between that list (which this week you have taken great exception to) and the profiling initiatives you practically demanded that our national law enforcement agencies adopt.
Perhaps you'll concede that in those early days after 9/11 you adopted some positions that you might regard in retrospect as a bit hysterical. But at the time you certainly gave no indication that the pro-profiling positions you espoused were in any way new revelations or otherwise reactionary positions in response to 9/11. Or maybe you'll argue that national (and local) law enforcement should be profiling people according to religious beliefs, but that they are less sacred than political beliefs, which deserves greater protection from such scrutiny.
I think more likely, unfortunately is that the positions you espouse in this thread are the result of the very different standards you have for a new Democrat presidential administration than you had for a new Republican administration 7 1/2 years ago. After all, at the beginning of the Bush Administration, you derided liberals for opposing nearly the same policies you are (falsely, as far as I can tell) derisively attributing to the Obama Administration today.
Baldwin, you have spent most of the past year at this forum in blind support of every last two-bit effort to publicly dehumanize Barack Obama. Among your various claims in that time are that he is a Muslim, that he is a black liberation theologist, that he is not an American citizen, that he is a terrorist sympathizer and that he is the cousin and political ally of an anti-Christian Kenyan despot. All of these claims have been proven void of any convincing evidence, if not outright debunked. After a year of this, I don't know why I should believe these completely unsupported claims that the profiling characteristics you list in post 8 is the diabolic agenda of President Obama at work, or even that you wouldn't be singing the praises of the very same profiling standards if they had been initiated by a presidential administration that you wanted to like.
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| | | 24 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 14:20
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Back to the thread topic, add TPM Muckraker to the list of liberal media holding the Obama Administration's feet to the fire on this.
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| | | 25 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 14:37
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ABC's Jake Tapper here and here.
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| | | 26 | Baldwin
ID: 132854 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 14:58
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Wow, that is a lotta work to avoid an apology!
Just wow!
1) It's official, not some crackpot idea as you put it.
2) I did not say Obama wrote it. I said he might have a different reason for defending it than Bush.
Then again they are both globalists. Maybe they both really intended it to target constitutionalists and not terrorists. The kinda people who actually insist the president be a natural born citizen and all the other constitutional provisions, like limited powers.
3) Oh, and 17 of 19 terrorists on 9/11 were Saudis young men, not grandmas from Desmoines. Rational people understand what that means when looking for the next 9/11.
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| | | 27 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 15:08
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I did not say Obama wrote it. I said he might have a different reason for defending it than Bush.
OK then show us some evidence of Obama "defending" it.
Oh, and 17 of 19 terrorists on 9/11 were Saudis young men, not grandmas from Desmoines. Rational people understand what that means when looking for the next 9/11.
OK then by all means reconcile your issues with Missouri Fusion Center with your support for the FBI staking out churches and profiling KKK crimes from the starting point of simply looking at white people and all the host of other profiling measures you are on record in explicit support of.
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| | | 28 | Baldwin
ID: 132854 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 15:35
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OK then show us some evidence of Obama "defending" it.
1) The whole point of this thread is that, to the surprise of liberals, Obama hasn't been any less willing to defend unwaranted domestic surveillance than Bush was.
OK then by all means reconcile your issues with Missouri Fusion Center with your support for the FBI staking out churches and profiling KKK crimes from the starting point of simply looking at white people and all the host of other profiling measures you are on record in explicit support of.
I have no problem with the FBI keeping tabs on 'Christian Identity' religions preaching racism or with keeping tabs on fans of 'The Turner Diary'. No need to strip search 'Demoines granny' to find the next Timothy McVeigh.
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| | | 29 | Tree
ID: 61411921 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 15:57
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No need to strip search 'Demoines granny' to find the next Timothy McVeigh.
nope, but perhaps we need to strip search all white US Army Vets...
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| | | 30 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 16:01
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I have no problem with the FBI keeping tabs on 'Christian Identity' religions preaching racism or with keeping tabs on fans of 'The Turner Diary'.
Remember the polygamists?
Which religions or belief systems is it appropriate to "keep tabs" on?
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| | | 31 | Baldwin
ID: 132854 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 16:01
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Applying?
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| | | 32 | Baldwin
ID: 132854 Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 16:05
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Which religions or belief systems is it appropriate to "keep tabs" on?
Ones which teach their members that they individually might be justified in acting as God's avenging angel...
...instead of the Bible's injunction, 'return evil for evil to no one, Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay'.
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| | | 33 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 17:49
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NYT: Obama Releases Interrogation Memos, Says C.I.A. Operatives Won’t Be Prosecuted Updated After a tense internal debate, President Obama officially announced this afternoon that his administration would not prosecute C.I.A. operatives for carrying out controversial interrogations of terrorist suspects, as the Justice Department began releasing a number of detailed memos describing harsh techniques used against Al Qaeda suspects in secret overseas prisons.
“In releasing these memos, it is our intention to assure those who carrying out their duties relying in good faith upon the legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution,” Mr. Obama said in a statement issued by the White House. Searchable versions of the released documents
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| | | 34 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 18:42
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Sullivan I've only read the Bybee memo [that's the first one -mith], as chilling an artefact as you are ever likely to read in a democratic society, the work clearly not of a lawyer assessing torture techniques in good faith, but of an administration official tasked with finding how torture techniques already decided upon can be parsed in exquisitely disingenuous ways to fit the law, even when they clearly do not.
To read a bureaucrat finding ways to describe and parse away the clear infliction of torture on a terror suspect well outside any "ticking time bomb" scenario is to realize what so many of us feared and sensed from the shards of information we have been piecing together for years. It is all true. These memos form a coda to the Red Cross report, confirming its evidentiary conclusions, while finding exquisite, legalistic and preposterous ways to deny the obvious.
I do not believe that any American president has ever orchestrated, constructed or so closely monitored the torture of other human beings the way George W. Bush did. It is clear that it is pre-meditated; and it is clear that the parsing of torture techniques that you read in the report is a simply disgusting and repellent piece of dishonesty and bad faith. When you place it alongside the Red Cross' debriefing of the torture victims, the fit is almost perfect.
Human beings were contorted into classic stress positions used by the Gestapo; they had towels tied around their necks in order to smash their bodies against walls; they were denied of all sleep for up to eleven days and nights at a time; they were stuck in tiny suffocating boxes; they were waterboarded just as the victims of the Khmer Rouge were waterboarded. And through all this, Bush and Cheney had lawyers prepared to write elaborate memos saying that all of this was legal, constitutional, moral and not severe pain and suffering.
Bybee is not representing justice in this memo. He is representing the president. And the president is seeking to commit war crimes. And he succeeded. This much we now know beyond any reasonable doubt. It is a very dark day for this country, but less dark than every day since Cheney decided to turn the US into a torturing country until now.
Stay tuned as I try to unpack and make sense of these documents. There is some feeling of relief that we now have the incontrovertible evidence in front of us. But there is also a feeling of great nausea as well. Look what they did to these suspects. And look what they did to America.
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| | | 35 | Seattle Zen
ID: 113541617 Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 18:54
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Nowhere does it say that the authors of these memos will not be brought up on charges. Hopefully, today is the first step on that path.
Professor Yoo, you may want to give Bernie Madoff a call and get the number of the prison consultant he recently hired.
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| | | 36 | Baldwin
ID: 553441513 Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 04:11
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When they are doing that to those who support the constitution, are you going to feel so bad about it?
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| | | 37 | Perm Dude
ID: 24321178 Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 09:28
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I will. The question is whether those who supported torture previously will see the truth before that point.
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| | | 38 | Tree
ID: 41371322 Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 10:10
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When they are doing that to those who support the constitution, are you going to feel so bad about it?
is this a serious question? does it even make sense, in or out of context??!?!
i like the comparison of criminals vs. non-criminals you just made...nice one!
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| | | 39 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 14:15
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Greenwald on Obama's release of the torture memos Beyond those generalities, I think the significance of Obama's decision to release those memos -- and the political courage it took -- shouldn't be minimized. There is no question that many key factions in the "intelligence community" were vehemently opposed to release of those memos. I have no doubt that reports that they waged a "war" to prevent release of these memos were absolutely true. The disgusting comments of former CIA Director Mike Hayden on MSNBC yesterday -- where he made clear that he simply does not believe in the right of citizens to know what their government does and that government crimes should be kept hidden-- is clearly what Obama was hearing from many powerful circles. That twisted anti-democratic mentality is the one that predominates in our political class.
In the United States, what Obama did yesterday is simply not done. American Presidents do not disseminate to the world documents which narrate in vivid, elaborate detail the dirty, illegal deeds done by the CIA, especially not when the actions are very recent, were approved and ordered by the President of the United States, and the CIA is aggressively demanding that the documents remain concealed and claiming that their release will harm national security. When is the last time a President did that?
But Obama knowingly infuriated the CIA, including many of his own top intelligence advisers; purposely subjected himself to widespread attacks from the Right that he was giving Al Qaeda our "playbook"; and he released to the world documents that conclusively prove how that the U.S. Government, at the highest levels, purported to legalize torture and committed blatant war crimes. There's just no denying that those actions are praiseworthy. I understand the argument that Obama only did what the law requires. That is absolutely true. We're so trained to meekly accept that our Government has the right to do whatever it wants in secret -- we accept that it's best that most things be kept from us -- that we forget that a core premise of our government is transparency; that the law permits secrecy only in the narrowest of cases; and that it's certainly not legal to suppress evidence of government criminality on the grounds that it is classified.
Still, as a matter of political reality, Obama had to incur significant wrath from powerful factions by releasing these memos, and he did that. That's an extremely unusual act for a politician, especially a President, and it deserves praise. None of this mitigates any of the bad acts Obama has engaged in recently -- particularly his ongoing efforts to shield Bush crimes from judicial review by relying on extreme assertions of presidential secrecy powers -- but, standing alone, his actions yesterday are quite significant.
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| | | 40 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 18:06
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Sullivan - Quotes for the Day"You would like to place Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him," - Jay Bybee, judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.
"‘The worst thing in the world,’ said O’Brien, ‘varies from individual to individual. It may be burial alive, or death by fire, or by drowning, or by impalement, or fifty other deaths. There are cases where it is some quite trivial thing, not even fatal,’" - George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty Four. David Cole - Quotes for the day II "Those methods, read on a bright, sunny, safe day in April 2009, appear graphic and disturbing." So Dennis Blair, President Obama's director of national intelligence, stated as he sought to minimize the significance of four previously secret Justice Department memos that employed tortured legal reasoning to authorise CIA agents to use cruel and abusive tactics to interrogate suspects inside secret prisons.
"It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen." So begins George Orwell's classic novel of the security state, 1984.
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| | | 41 | Baldwin
ID: 553441513 Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 04:40
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When Obama goes Orwellian it won't be against muslims.
BTW for those who continuously refuse to keep score, Obama's putting the entire republican party on the terrorist watch list rates him a whopping Less than ZeroTM on the bipartisanship scale.
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| | | 42 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 06:28
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In all fairness Baldwin, Obomba tried to be bipartisan by offering the Republicans a chance to become socialists like him.
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| | | 43 | Pancho Villa
ID: 163461820 Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 09:18
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Obama's putting the entire republican party on the terrorist watch list
Coming from someone who claims a large part of the Republican Party is composed of RINOs, CINOs, and other terms suggesting liberals masquerading as conservatives, that statement draws a clear distinction between those in the Republican Party that represent the Silent Majority, and the hysterical right wing of the party which currently specializes in distortion and polarization, even within the party itself.
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| | | 44 | Tree
ID: 41371322 Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 09:44
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Obama's putting the entire republican party on the terrorist watch list
indeed. it should be interesting to see how things turn out, as, in your world, Obama will be putting members of his own cabinet on the terrorist watch list.
and much of Congress. and the House. and 23 Governors.
oy. wow. full of lulz...
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| | | 45 | Pancho Villa
ID: 57313207 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 11:04
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According to a Townhall blogger commenting on a Tea Bag column:
the best sign at the Atlanta Tea Party. It said, "we didn't bring our guns THIS time!"
link
I don't know how more obvious it can be that there's a right wing contingency that feels justified in at least threatening to use guns, although the target isn't specified.
It seems to me that the DHS would be irresponsible in not pointing out the possibilities of terrorism by those who threaten to use their weapons in a rather indiscriminate manner.
If conservatives don't want to be characterized by the most radical within their ranks, maybe their leaders should denounce such rhetoric instead of promoting it.
"We're not the extremists, they are." - Rush Limbaugh
Anyone who doesn't think it's extreme to basically announce:
"we're having political protests all across the country, come angry and bring your guns"
is hypocrisy in the purest sense of the word. Had Iraqi war demonstrations or the million man march organizers been silent while a contingency suggested coming to these events armed to the teeth, conservatives would have been howling from the rooftops about dangerous radicals threatening terrorism as part of their agenda.
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| | | 46 | Boxman
ID: 29351011 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 11:39
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They said BRING the guns, not shoot the President. People have a 2nd Amendment right to firearms and depending on their locality they can conceal and carry. So they have every right to do so.
If they said "shoot the President" well yeah then I agree with you about them being nuts, but they do have a 1st Amendment to do so just like the wahoos that protest soldiers funerals or the other guys that protested Bush.
On the side, isn't it a federal crime to threaten the President?
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| | | 47 | Perm Dude
ID: 4032209 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 11:41
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Guns are brought to imply a threat. These yahoos are getting whipped up by conservative media and their lackeys, and told to bring guns to a rally.
When the first person gets shot at one of these things, you'll be the first one to post "I never saw that coming." And you'd be wrong.
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| | | 48 | Boxman
ID: 29351011 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 11:43
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Guns are brought to imply a threat.
So could a 100 other things.
When the first person gets shot at one of these things
And whatever lunatic does so probably would have no matter what anyway.
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| | | 49 | Perm Dude
ID: 4032209 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 11:44
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There is no threat like a gun threat. You can continue to put your head in the sand all you want, but reality doesn't change simply because you decide to sing "la la la la" at it.
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| | | 50 | Boxman
ID: 29351011 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 11:46
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There is no threat like a gun threat.
9/11 was caused with box cutters. So yeah there are threats like gun threats.
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| | | 51 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 11:49
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9/11 was caused with box cutters. So yeah there are threats like gun threats.
You think the passangers on flight 93 would have been able to fight back so easily if the terrorists aboard were armed with guns rather than box cutters?
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| | | 52 | Boxman
ID: 29351011 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 11:52
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Just proving PD wrong when he says, "There is no threat like a gun threat."
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| | | 53 | Perm Dude
ID: 4032209 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 11:55
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You haven't proved crap. No surprise there.
A couple of guys waving around boxcutters at a rally against the Administration vs a couple of guys waving guns around at a rally?
OK: My new rule here is: No troll responses.
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| | | 54 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 12:11
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...proving PD wrong
Well if you believe 4 planes crashing into buildings is any worse than 3 planes crashing into buildings, then clearly:
the threat from a boxcutter <> the threat from a gun
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| | | 55 | Building 7
ID: 471052128 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 13:48
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You think the passangers on flight 93 would have been able to fight back so easily if the terrorists aboard were armed with guns rather than box cutters?
There were a couple mentions of guns being used on the 911 flights. One from a stewardess. The only mention of boxcutters was by Barbara Olson, although they supposedly found some in the flight 93 wreckage.
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| | | 56 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 17:47
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Drudge: Cheney Calls for Legal Memos to be Declassified Mon Apr 20 2009 16:20:53 ET
In a two part interview airing tonight and tomorrow night on FOX News Channel’s Hannity (9-10PM ET), former Vice President Dick Cheney shared his thoughts on the CIA memos that were recently declassified and also revealed his request to the CIA to declassify additional memos that confirm the success of the Bush administration’s interrogation tactics:
CHENEY:
“One of the things that I find a little bit disturbing about this recent disclosure is they put out the legal memos, the memos that the CIA got from the Office of Legal Counsel, but they didn't put out the memos that showed the success of the effort. And there are reports that show specifically what we gained as a result of this activity. They have not been declassified.”
“I formally asked that they be declassified now. I haven't announced this up until now, I haven't talked about it, but I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country.”
“And I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was, as well as to see this debate over the legal opinions.”
Developing... Sullivan:I'll wait for the full interview, but this seems to me to be a real opportunity to set up the Truth Commission many of us have been asking for. Release all the data on the torture - all of it - alongside the intelligence we got from it. At least then we will have the data needed to see this in full perspective. It needs to be in context and it needs to be assessed by an independent panel - bipartisan and widely respected - along the lines of the 9/11 Commission. Decisions to prosecute could be made after all the material is laid out. This will take time - and should be done carefully and exhaustively. But it is vital if the US is to remain within the legal and moral bounds of Western civilization.
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| | | 57 | Baldwin
ID: 553441513 Tue, Apr 21, 2009, 16:22
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What is vital is NOT submitting to one world government judicial review and the mischief of anti-american activists around the world.
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| | | 59 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Apr 25, 2009, 14:15
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New Boss... Same as the Old Boss?
Well, no. I don't recall the old boss ever so assaulting defendant's rights.The case at issue is Michigan v. Jackson, in which the Supreme Court said in 1986 that police may not initiate questioning of a defendant who has a lawyer or has asked for one, unless the attorney is present. The decision applies even to defendants who agree to talk to the authorities without their lawyers.
Anything police learn through such questioning cannot be used against the defendant at trial. The opinion was written by Justice John Paul Stevens, the only current justice who was on the court at the time.
The justices could decide as early as Friday whether they want to hear arguments on the issue as they wrestle with an ongoing case from Louisiana that involves police questioning of an indigent defendant that led to a murder confession and a death sentence.
The Justice Department, in a brief signed by Solicitor General Elena Kagan, said the 1986 decision "serves no real purpose" and offers only "meager benefits." The government said defendants who don't wish to talk to police don't have to and that officers must respect that decision. But it said there is no reason a defendant who wants to should not be able to respond to officers' questions.
At the same time, the administration acknowledges that the decision "only occasionally prevents federal prosecutors from obtaining appropriate convictions."
The administration's position assumes a level playing field, with equally savvy police and criminal suspects, lawyers on the other side of the case said. But the protection offered by the court in Stevens' 1986 opinion is especially important for vulnerable defendants, including the mentally and developmentally disabled, addicts, juveniles and the poor, the lawyers said.
"Your right to assistance of counsel can be undermined if somebody on the other side who is much more sophisticated than you are comes and talks to you and asks for information," said Sidney Rosdeitcher, a New York lawyer who advises the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University.
Stephen B. Bright, a lawyer who works with poor defendants at the Southern Center for Human Rights in Atlanta, said the administration's position "is disappointing, no question."
Bright said that poor defendants' constitutional right to a lawyer, spelled out by the high court in 1965, has been neglected in recent years. "I would hope that this administration would be doing things to shore up the right to counsel for poor people accused of crimes," said Bright, whose group joined with the Brennan Center and other rights organizations in a court filing opposing the administration's position.
Former Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson and former FBI Director William Sessions are among 19 one-time judges and prosecutors urging the court to leave the decision in place because it has been incorporated into routine police practice and establishes a rule on interrogations that is easy to follow.
Eleven states also are echoing the administration's call to overrule the 1986 case.
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| | | 60 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sat, Apr 25, 2009, 17:53
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Box Obomba tried to be bipartisan by offering the Republicans a chance to become socialists like him.
His Republican predecessor was already a socialist, calling the kettle black Box?
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| | | 61 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sat, Apr 25, 2009, 18:05
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There's a legitimate intellectual and philosophical debate here.
It amuses me that the Republicans/conservatives are not capable of articulating it.
Resorting to comments like "we didn't bring guns this time" shows the weakness of the oppositions ability to articulate. That sentiment actually plays into Obama's hands.
There are to sides to the argument, but the ditto heads are "over their head" lacking the ability to be an intelligent opposition.
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| | | 63 | Razor
ID: 41323216 Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 20:19
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Good. It was wrong when Bush did it and even worse when Obama did it because he saw the example of Bush and did nothing to change it.
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| | | 64 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 09:42
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Seriously? Of course the courts throw out the state secrets defense, what state secrets could Jeppesen possibly have? And for the matter what responsibility do they have?
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| | | 65 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Mon, May 11, 2009, 21:03
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The New Boss promotes The Old Boss? Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced this afternoon that he has "asked for the resignation" of Gen. David McKiernan, commander of NATO forces in Afghanistan, and that he plans to replace him with Gen. Stanley McChrystal.
For the past year, McChrystal has been director of the Pentagon's Joint Staff. More pertinently, for five years before that, he was commander of the Joint Special Operations Command, a highly secretive operation that hunted down and killed key jihadist fighters, including, most sensationally, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq.
Last fall, Bob Woodward reported in the Washington Post that JSOC played a crucial, unsung role in the tactical success of the Iraqi "surge." Using techniques of what McChrystal called "collaborative warfare," JSOC combined intelligence intercepts with quick, precision strikes to "eliminate" large numbers of key insurgent leaders.
This appointment will not be without controversy. McChrystal's command also provided the personnel for Task Force 6-26, an elite unit of 1,000 special-ops forces that engaged in harsh interrogation of detainees in Camp Nama as far back as 2003. The interrogations were so harsh that five Army officers were convicted on charges of abuse. (McChrystal himself was not implicated in the excesses, but the unit's slogan, which set the tone for its practices, was "If you don't make them bleed, they can't prosecute for it.") Sullivan pulls excerpts from this 7/1/06 Esquire article.
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| | | 66 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Wed, May 13, 2009, 17:11
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David Kurtz Bad Sign
It's hard not to view today's reversal by the White House, announcing that photos of detainee abuse in Afghanistan and Iraq will not be released to the public, as a sign of how long and hard they think the slog is ahead in Afghanistan -- and how crucial the outcome there will be for the future success of this Administration.
Obama has installed a new commander in Afghanistan who is steeped in counterinsurgency doctrine and devoted considerable resources and political capital to a new strategy there. I'm speculating, but the White House and Pentagon must not have cherished the idea of having their new start in Afghanistan undermined by the release of pictures that would further inflame the Muslim world.
That's not a defense of the decision. I think it's a bad one. But it's an ominous decision for reasons that go beyond upholding the spirit of FOIA.
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| | | 68 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Fri, May 15, 2009, 14:22
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There's a legitimate intellectual and philosophical debate here.
It amuses me that the Republicans/conservatives are not capable of articulating it.
Resorting to comments like "we didn't bring guns this time" shows the weakness of the oppositions ability to articulate. That sentiment actually plays into Obama's hands.
There are to sides to the argument, but the ditto heads are "over their head" lacking the ability to be an intelligent opposition. - Nerve
Oh please. Head-over-heals Obama soulmates on this board have entirely lost the ability to think, they are so love-sick. The site has jumped the shark. No one intelligent around to talk to anymore. One liberal research monster amazes the trolls with his ability to find someone on the web who agrees with him, no matter how wrong they are. That's all you got here.
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| | | 69 | Seattle Zen
ID: 594231511 Fri, May 15, 2009, 14:51
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No one intelligent around to talk to anymore.
Since you haven't contributed anything of worth in many months, feel free to stay at home. We'll survive without you.
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| | | 70 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Sat, May 16, 2009, 06:36
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Let me think...besides promoting drug use, SZ's valuable production was...well he must have posted something substantial.
Besides helping Nancy Pelosi put in jail the CIA guys who did what she told them to do, I can't think of anything.
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| | | 71 | bibA
ID: 104311115 Sat, May 16, 2009, 10:10
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How many CIA guys have been put in jail? Do you have any of their names, or were they immediately and secretly sent to the Gulag?
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| | | 72 | Boldwin
ID: 133532810 Sat, May 16, 2009, 19:17
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I didn't say she had done that. I said she is willing to do that while pretending they didn't have her tacit approval.
Back when the public felt threatened by terrorists.
Beware of doing Nancy Pelosi's bidding when the winds of politics change.
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| | | 74 | Mith
ID: 4982142 Tue, Sep 28, 2010, 17:02
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NYT:Essentially, officials want Congress to require all services that enable communications — including encrypted e-mail transmitters like BlackBerry, social networking Web sites like Facebook and software that allows direct “peer to peer” messaging like Skype — to be technically capable of complying if served with a wiretap order. The mandate would include being able to intercept and unscramble encrypted messages.
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| | | 75 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Tue, Sep 28, 2010, 17:27
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Piss off, Congress.
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