Forum: pol
Page 3287
Subject: Teabag Day!


  Posted by: Mith - [2894309] Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 16:42

As has been suggested at one time or another by one of this forum's senior members, perhaps one picture really is worth a thousand protests?


They say it isn't a protest until someone evokes Hitler, right?


Now here is a fellow who is well aware of the impression he makes.


 
1Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 16:43
Um... ok...

 
2Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:03
Some good ones at Daily Dish:





FNC it seems believes elections don't express the will of the people, huh?


 
3Perm Dude
      ID: 18351159
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:10
"Tyranny is measured in dollars spent."

Really? I would have thought, off the top of my head, it would be measured in "rights restricted." Or "justice officials politicized." Or maybe even "lack of transparency."
 
4Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:17
Looks like the gathering at Austin, TX wins the prize for biggest guest appearance:


Not exactly an uncommon theme at these events today:


Now here's a man who takes his teabagging seriously:
 
5Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:25
What would Baldwin's reaction be to this poster if it appeared at a liberal rally?


Another true patriot here:


Oh boy... is it obvious some of these folks lack the anagram skills of more experienced protestors?
 
6Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:33
i'm impressed with her scotch taping abilities.
 
7Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:38
Anyone wanna take a stab at this one?


The harpy digs in:


Fellow in the Uncle Sam hat's got nothing on this one:
 
8Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:43
Mith

That poster is prolly a government plant.
 
9boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:43
The harpy digs in:

I might carry around a silly sign to take part in the pig roast.
 
10Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:46
Plumbers for FAIRTax
 
11Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:50
#5: "Molon Labe" in that sign. Very nice.
 
12Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:51
Daily Kos' "Teabagger of the Day"
 
13Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:58
When teabaggers don't see eye-to-eye:

 
14Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:02
OK maybe these teabaggers have a stronger message than I thought



Whooops! That's a pro-choice rally in DC from 2004. My bad!


I kid, I kid!
 
15Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:03
Huh?
 
16Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:09

Where were these people when GW was running up the biggest deficits in the history of the country?

Oh I forgot he's a white Republican.

 
17Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:10

When I first saw the thread I thought it was about a new Porn Movie.

 
18Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:12
Blog post of the day (salty language)

 
19Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:17
Nerve

Where were these people when...

See the first photo at the top of the thread.
 
20Perm Dude
      ID: 533361517
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:36
A lot of pissed off, unfocused, white people.

 
21biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 19:26
When I first saw the thread I thought it was about a new Porn Movie.

Me too. What a disappointment.

Are they really so sexually repressed they don't even know what tea-bagging actually is?
 
22Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 19:33
I have no idea what you are talking about and I don't want to know.
 
23Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 20:01
Yawn to all of Mith's hate posts. Let me know when you post similar pictures of left wing protestors with the same zeal. I expect that crap from brainwashed lefties like PD not you.
 
24Seattle Zen
      ID: 353171512
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 20:06
This has "The Boy who Cried Wolf" written all over it. What the hell are they protesting exactly? The Stimulus bill? Seems like a grumpy bunch of ineffective, clueless lumps angry at everything. Yeah, your typical Fox News watcher.

When something really worth protesting comes along...
 
25Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 20:09
people really don't know what Teabagging is? wow.

i mean, isn't that half the joke of this thing...
 
26Perm Dude
      ID: 533361517
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 21:57
Re 23: Actually, much of this "Tea(bagging)" protesting reminds me of the late 80's protests from the left. More darker people, mind you, but the same unfocused, everything-in-the-blender protesting in which a message about apartheid (for example) gets co-opted by a guy going on and on about some completely different issue (like women in the military, or Star Wars).

Of course, the lefties of that period were at least consistent, even if a bit irrelevent. These teabaggers were on the exact opposite side of the fence on the issues they are protesting just a few months ago.
 
27Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 22:53
They're just looking for change they can believe in.
 
28Razor
      ID: 41323216
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 22:59
The Republican Party has become the party of the ignorant and the dumb.
 
29Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 23:12
They're just looking for change they can believe in.

where were they years ago when Bush and the Republican Congress started this mess?
 
30Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 23:30
Ann Coulter explains the Tea Parties, to those here who cannot fathom the obvious.
The point of the tea parties is to note the fact that the Democrats' modus operandi is to lead voters to believe they are no more likely to raise taxes than Republicans, get elected and immediately raise taxes.

Apparently, the people who actually pay taxes consider this a bad idea.
---------
California tried the Obama soak-the-productive "stimulus" plan years ago and was hailed as the perfect exemplar of Democratic governance.

In June 2002, the liberal American Prospect magazine called California a "laboratory" for Democratic policies, noting that "California is the only one of the nation's 10 largest states that is uniformly under Democratic control."

They said this, mind you, as if it were a good thing. In California, the article proclaimed, "the next new deal is in tryouts." As they say in show biz: "Thanks, we'll call you. Next!"

In just a few years, Democrats had turned California into a state – or as it's now known, a "job-free zone" – with a $41 billion deficit, a credit rating that was slashed to junk-bond status and a middle class now located in Arizona.

Democrats governed California the way Democrats always govern. They bought the votes of government workers with taxpayer-funded jobs, salaries and benefits – and then turned around and accused the productive class of "greed" for wanting not to have their taxes raised through the roof.

Having run out of things to tax, now the California Legislature is considering a tax on taxes. Seriously. The only way out now for California is a tax on Botox and steroids. Sure, the governor will protest, but it is the best solution ...

California was, in fact, a laboratory of Democratic policies. The rabbit died, so now Obama is trying it on a national level.

That's what the tea parties are about.
 
31Razor
      ID: 41323216
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 23:58
Taxes have gotten lowered, not raised. Whoops.
 
32Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 00:36

Baldwin let me explain to you and Ms. Coulter what the tea bagging is really about...

There are a group of Americans in this country, who hate Obama. They hate he's a democrat, they hate that he is pro choice, they hate that he is more liberal (and yet more intelligent) then they are.

I won't bring race into it because with many of them that is probably not the issue, they would be doing this to Al Gore also.

None of these people said a peep when a white, religious Republican was running this country into the ground, running up huge deficits and handing out stimulus checks and bailing out banks.

While I knew all this already, it was satisfying to hear Bob Brinker, who generally supports Republicans and tends to disparage Democratic fiscal policy more then Republican, angrily explain this to a pro tea bagging caller this week.

He's explained since the election that there are a group of angry white people in this country who hate Obama and are hoping for him to fail so they can get their candidate back in the White House.

He has plenty of criticism for Obama and his policies, but he sees this as a different level of animosity and he assured the listener he wouldn't be attending any of these events.

I use the Brinker's example because he is far from a Democrat giving this opinion unlike Ms. Coulter who is a partisan and only swings one way.


 
33Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 00:45

Coulter
California was, in fact, a laboratory of Democratic policies. The rabbit died, so now Obama is trying it on a national level.


Uh did she forget it was a Republican President who got us into this mess and ran up the largest deficits in the history of the country?

Did she forget Obama is reacting to the biggest crisis since the great depression that a Republican handed him?

It's like starting a building on fire, locking someone inside, and accusing them of wasting water for trying to put out the fire.

And all done with a straight face.

No shame Baldwin?

The problem with these conservatives is the just don't take personal responsibility for their actions.






 
34Perm Dude
      ID: 533361517
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 01:28
I guess Coulter had to go back to 2002, since in 2003 California elected a Republican Governor.

California has some serious problems, mostly because of the extremely low bar on voter-driven mandates.

Meanwhile, Baldwin, being the good soldier, helpfully passes along some of the PR being handed down to him about what they are doing.
 
35Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 08:19
California, like the rest of america 'always does the right thing', but only after exhausting every other alternative.

California rarely elects republican governors and only did so because a free spending dem capitol bankrupted the state, with just a little bit of help from Enron, granted.

Bush didn't ever veto a free spending congress like Reagan would have and having shed their 'contract with america' spending ethics like a whore, do not deserve to govern until they recover their principles.

If America has a choice between a free spending republican and a free spending democrat, they'll choose the real profligate every time.
 
36Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 08:56
While we are at it...
























 
37Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 09:14
Baldwin - California rarely elects republican governors..

no? three of the last four governors (and 22 of the last 26 years) were Republican.

in fact, 15 of the 19 governors of California since 1900 have been Republican.
 
38Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 09:22
I've been misled by the media into believing it was a liberal state, obviously.
 
39Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 09:25
You've been misled by the conservative media, that's for sure.

 
40Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 09:27
When did the ambition to become Tree strike you, PD?
 
41Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 09:43
no Baldwin, YOU were wrong. you were flat out wrong. or, you lied, and hoped you'd get away with it.

your "facts" couldn't have been more incorrect.

even worse, it was a simple statement that could have been looked up and verified in about 5 seconds, but you're too lazy and have too much hubris to even bother doing that.

don't blame anyone else when you screw up. accept responsibility.

this is the norm for you. you throw out a giant pile of horse$hit, and even when proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you, and your holy madame Coulter are wrong, you ignore, deflect, and in general, don't accept responsibility for your error.

grow a pair, will ya?
 
42Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 10:23
Still looking for any non well-scrubbed whites at these protests...

All those signs just prove my point: These middle class whites are angry and unfocused. And wrong. Virtually all of them are getting a tax cut under this administration--some of them will be the benefit of a number of different cuts.
 
43Pancho Villa
      ID: 10353167
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 10:39
And all that government spending on the Democrats' constituents will be paid for by raising taxes on the productive. - Ann Coulter

The Productive?

It's an interesting term for Coulter to use, since it implies that she's one of the productive. And what exactly is it that she produces?

It also implies that there doesn't exist a Democratic constituency that is productive. Only Republican constituents are productive. The arrogance is mind-boggling.

What's truly sad about Coulter's hubris is that there is a very important and serious discussion that needs to happen concerning segments of society that are lifetime recipients of state support.
This discussion did occur in the Clinton administration and reform was initiated, though it seemed to fall by the wayside during the Bush years.

So now, in Coulter's world, the Democrat who assembles automobiles in a factory isn't productive, but the Republican insurance agent who sits on his butt writing policies is.

Beyond that, there's a more sinister element in segregating the productive and the non-productive. Baldwin likes to rail about brownshirts and gulags and chain gangs, but what could we expect with the Ann Coulters of the world running things, when they insist on determining who is and isn't productive, especially when they constantly remind us that they're the ones with the guns.

 
44boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 11:50
All those signs just prove my point: These middle class whites are angry and unfocused. And wrong. Virtually all of them are getting a tax cut under this administration--some of them will be the benefit of a number of different cuts.

they people don't want tax cuts they want no tax...And just because you get a tax cut today does not mean you are not going to get tax raise when all the bills come due. So dont act like Obama is some kind of hero because he cuts taxes today, when you know full well that someday these debts are going to have to get paid with higher taxes.
 
45Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 11:58
Let's parse this out:

they people don't want tax cuts they want no tax

Are you saying that these people want no taxes at all? Because I'm not getting that at all. I'm getting a lot of noise (just look at the cornucopia of issues on those signs).

And just because you get a tax cut today does not mean you are not going to get tax raise when all the bills come due.

So you believe that these 2009 tax cuts will be reversed and taxes will rise--what evidence do you have for that? Are you unable to even acknowledge that taxes were cut for anyone making under $75,000/year ($150,000 for couples filing jointly)? Your response to that fact it that it will rise at some point?

Ironically, if the GOP had its way right now, that is exactly what would happen: The government would have to raise taxes sharply right now to pay for the deficits accrued over the last 8 years.

So dont act like Obama is some kind of hero because he cuts taxes today, when you know full well that someday these debts are going to have to get paid with higher taxes.

I'm sorry--please point out the post where I called Obama a "hero" for lowering taxes. Puhleaze. You can't, so you resort to "you're just hero worshipping Obama" rather than engaging on the facts.

This Tea Party is fit for you: Short on facts, quick with the "hero worship" slam, and unable to believe that the Obama plan has any of your best interests in mind despite that being factually the case so far.


Where were you when the debt was piling up under Bush? You Tea Party members have no standing on this issue, since you remained silent (and some of you cheered on) Bush while he piled up debt in the first place.
 
46boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 12:12
Are you saying that these people want no taxes at all?

I am guessing that, but really that is just based on the assumption that if you make crazy signs you are probably pretty crazy.

I'm sorry--please point out the post where I called Obama a "hero" for lowering taxes

that was exaggeration on my part, but you do talk to of him that way, so i just assumed you thought of him in that way.

Where were you when the debt was piling up under Bush?

find the post that i say we should be spending money? If anything i bet you can find some posts where i am in favor of increased taxes on the rich. The only tax i ever speak out against is capital gains.

So you believe that these 2009 tax cuts will be reversed and taxes will rise--what evidence do you have for that?

really? I guess some magic fairy is going to pay off all are debts for us, hmmm this is same kind of logic that got us into this mess in the first place. If you don't think the 10 year olds of today will not be paying for this, then you should move in with Baldwin because clearly you both live in fantasy world.
 
47Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 12:20
End social security for anyone under 18 who hasn't paid into the system yet. Deduct the 6% anyway and put it in a private account. Remove the salary cap on social security payroll taxes for those over 18. Fully fund the system for those who paid into but kill it for those who haven't. Stop the next bubble before it bursts. Let's start there.
 
48Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 12:45
Yawn to all of Mith's hate posts.

Hey there is no hate in any of my posts here.

Well OK, maybe I hate the harpy just a little bit.

But when PV wrote last week, "I have no problem with these tea parties, as protests are an integral part of our national identity", he was absolutely right. I applaud every last one of the teabaggers at every protest for taking advantage of their right to express themselves in public, even the ones who showed up with messages of (real) hate.
 
49Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 12:51
Remove the salary cap on social security payroll taxes for those over 18.

I agree with this. Maybe it can be accompanied by an increase in benefits for those paying more (the total amount paid out would never be more than paid in anyway).
 
50Seattle Zen
      ID: 353591611
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:00
Hey, the fat cats, and their skinny pole cat compatriots love these pointless protests.


"I'm your average middle class American, I'm scared about everything and I'm not going to take it any... today! Tomorrow I'll go back to work."

And nod my head at Rush on my drive home, without really thinking through all the ramifications. Then watch Jack Bauer torture some dark, nefarious terrorist and feel safe! After all, I'm a producer and he hates my freedom... clip those electrodes to his nuts!
 
51Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:01
I agree with this.

If you only agree with the cap removal then we agree on nothing. I want the cap removal in conjunction with eliminating social security for those under 18.

No increase in benefits. Kill the system. An eventual end to social security will end hundreds of billions of annual government spending.
 
52Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:04




 
53Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:09




 
54Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:10
 
55Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:14
Governor Perry, at a Tea Party Rally, suggests succession.

Boxman: Just so I'm clear: You want to increase the amount of Social Security taxes paid by the wealthy, but not allow an increase in their benefits?
 
56Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:28




No Cap & Trade... Build Nukes... Stop the Power Grab
 
57Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:33
W.W.R.S. isn't Idol Worship?


Leaving this one at original size so you can read the sign


 
58Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:33
Boxman: Just so I'm clear: You want to increase the amount of Social Security taxes paid by the wealthy, but not allow an increase in their benefits?

Only if it guarentees me the death of social security for anyone under 18 who will invest in 100% private accounts instead.

It is worth paying a high price to get social security and retirement off the government budget to reduce the deficit.
 
59Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:40
Clearly armed robbery > democracy.


I thought the point was that the teabaggers were angry


No telling what this guy is capable of if you take away his magic markers and cell phone.
 
60Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:46
Ukula?




I'll forego any comment for this one:
 
61Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:49
#58: I really don't see how taxing the wealthy more for Social Security will accomplish the ending of that program. If anything, it would fully fund it, especially if unaccompanied by an increase in benefits.
 
62Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:55


One of these things is not like the others...


Aha! The photo in #7 explained. Well, not really.
 
63Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:00
Found a black guy! Too bad he's like 15 and we don't know what he's for, but at least I've located the token:

 
64Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:08
Nice!



 
65Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:22
Counter-protest of the day:
 
66Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:25
A touch too much truth for the teabag crowd?
 
67Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:28
#58: I really don't see how taxing the wealthy more for Social Security will accomplish the ending of that program. If anything, it would fully fund it, especially if unaccompanied by an increase in benefits.

It will solve the problem of the short funding allowing a clean break for those under 18 to be rid of it.
 
68Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:39
Bagnewsnotes:
Underneath The Tea


I don't know. There are all kinds of seductive symbolic elements (hammers-and-sickles, U.S. flags, Hitlers, pigs, Uncle Sams, Indians, Alfred E. Nuemans, George Washingtons, cows, underdraws, Don't Tread On Me flags, tea bags -- of course) running through today's tea party protests. It's just hard for me to look at it that seriously. ...In my mind, it's like going back and analyzing those Sara Palin election hate-fests rallies (well documented by Chin's slideshow from Hershey and Shippensburg.)

If one image did draw me in, however, it was this one.

What it captures for me, in this woman's "crest fallen" version of an anti-tax/anti-Obama/anti-Government/anti-bailout/anti-(fill in the blank) Lady Liberty, is that Americans truly are hurting, angry and depressed ... and thus ripe for such cheap exploitation.
 
69Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:46




 
70Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:54
Nothing like the threat of violence to spruce up a peaceful protest

 
71Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:58
The Daily Show With Jon StewartM - Th 11p / 10c
Tempest in a Tea Party
thedailyshow.com
Daily Show
Full Episodes
Economic CrisisPolitical Humor


 
72Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 15:08
Publius:
Ah, Tea Party Day. Loves it. There’s already been much ink spilled on the manufactured nature of these things. But that’s not the most interesting part. What’s more interesting is the motivation of the people actually going to these things (and cheerleading them). To me, the tea parties are serving a psychological function – they’re allowing conservatives to subjectively reaffirm their ideology and to relieve the cognitive dissonance of the Bush years.

It’s hard to know what being a conservative means these days. There are so many internal contradictions that I’m not sure it lends itself to any easy definition. But one thing that all conservatives tell themselves is that they’re somehow opposed or skeptical of “big government.” There are of course different and diverse camps (some more thoughtful than others) – but in general, the ideological glue that holds the concept together in one’s mind relates in some sense to “small government.”

For obvious reasons, this ideological self-image came under a fairly withering assault by the Bush administration. Whether you look at Bush in terms of spending, deficits, imperialism, executive power, or surveillance, it’s hard to squeeze the past 8 years into any sort of “small government” ideological box. Procrustes wields a capable knife and all, but he’s not that good.

To be fair, a lot of conservatives were genuinely uneasy with these developments – but many chose to ignore or repress their anxiety because they really hated Democrats, or because they wanted a piece of the action, or whatever. But most stood silently by, except for the much-maligned Ron Paul contingent.


The tea parties, however, don’t have much to do with logic. I’m sure our modern-day Samuel Adamses aren’t supporting big military spending cuts. I doubt they care that taxes are unchanged or lowered on 95% of families. I suspect they had almost nothing to say about the spending and executive overreach of the Bush years. Logical consistency, remember, isn’t the point.

The point is that tea parties give them an opportunity to reaffirm their own ideological self-image. In their own heads, they want to be “small government” people. In this sense, the tea parties are simply atonement – trying to “out out” the damned spot.

Perhaps all this seems unfair, but I think it’s actually the most charitable interpretation. Because if they’re actually protesting Obama’s policies on the merits, it shows a fairly large disconnect from reality. Under this less charitable interpretation, these people are protesting because 5% of the richest Americans are getting an extremely modest (by historical standards) tax increase.

Tyranny doesn’t get much clearer than that.
 
73Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 15:32
observations:

that dude in pensacola had balls to say what he said in the heart of the redneck riviera.

never mind the protester signs that were filled with ignorance and misinformation, the ones filled with racism and violence are the ones that are scary.

only two signs in the whole lot seemed to have a kernel of truth - the brown sign, and the smoke weed sign.

i liked seeing one of my drinking buddies in Jon Stewart's "tea party tea party tea party montage". i was like, "hey! that's tamron!"

thanks for all those postings MITH. great stuff...
 
74Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 18:51
Re: post 55 - Malkin familiar, Allahpundit:
I snarked yesterday that the left would get hysterical and treat his statement on the Tenth Amendment as a veiled call for secession, so I’m obliged to eat my words today. Simply awful, whether as a convenient distraction for the media from the tea parties or as a brush for them to tar the protests as motivated by crackpot neo-confederate sentiments. Even Drudge, who’s obviously sympathetic to the rallies, is leading with the story right now. In the red scare font, no less.

Breitbart has the audio if you’re curious, but here’s the gist of it:
Perry called his supporters patriots. Later, answering news reporters’ questions, Perry suggested Texans might at some point get so fed up they would want to secede from the union, though he said he sees no reason why Texas should do that.

“There’s a lot of different scenarios,” Perry said. “We’ve got a great union. There’s absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we’re a pretty independent lot to boot.”

He said when Texas entered the union in 1845 it was with the understanding it could pull out. However, according to the Texas State Library and Archives Commission, Texas negotiated the power to divide into four additional states at some point if it wanted to but not the right to secede.
Texas did secede in 1861, but the North’s victory in the Civil War put an end to that.
What a treat to see some on the right pulling the same whiny, anti-democratic crap that the left pulled under Bush. I can only assume this means that I was wrong about Perry’s 2012 aspirations and that he’s not planning to run, as the thought of a secessionist presidential candidate would be rather highly nuanced indeed. Exit question: Chuck Norris for Texas president?
Emphasis is all Allahpundit.
 
75Building 7 in Texas
      ID: 3111252013
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 19:55
I've heard that part of the deal with Texas joining the union was that they could secede in the future if they wanted. I've also heard that Texas could break up into 5 states if they wanted. So, I'm not sure what is right.

I don't know that there is anything in the Constitution to prohibit a state from seceding.
 
76Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 19:57
What I find amazing is that there is anyone who thinks they will end up paying less to the government under Obama. With one hand or another we will ALL have our pockets picked clean by this guy.
 
77Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 19:57
Is that a joke, B7?

You know about the Civil War, yes?
 
78Razor
      ID: 41323216
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 20:17
What I find amazing is that there is anyone who thinks they will end up paying less to the government under Obama. With one hand or another we will ALL have our pockets picked clean by this guy.

Been months since you posted a fact and not an opinion presented as fact.
 
79Building 7 not B7
      ID: 3111252013
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 22:26
I don't know that the north had the authority to fight the south.
 
80Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 22:56
To prevent an illegal succession--sure.

You don't call it "The War of Northern Agression," do you?

Read SCOTUS' Texas v White.
 
81Building 7
      ID: 3111252013
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 23:40
I agree with the dissenting opinion of that case. SCOTUS decisions are not the Constitution. There is a Liberterian group that wants to secede from the union. So they voted for the best state to do this, and it was New Hampshire. The last I heard they had members moving there to try to get control of the state governemnt and secede.
 
82Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 23:45
SCOTUS decisions are not the Constitution

SCOTUS is charged, in the Constitution, with interpreting the constitutionality of the laws. This is settled case law.

Hell, I disagree with a lot of SCOTUS decisions (Bush v Gore, Kelo, Martin vs PGA) but that is their job.

Pretty sad when some people are so "pro American" that they have to actually succeed when they don't get their way.
 
83Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 04:08
Pretty sad when one side has such dictatorial impulses that they attempt to criminalize those who support the constitution.
 
84Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 04:20


Add 207 of those and you easily are in the territory MITH was bragging about in his 'million man march' photo.
 
85Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 06:29
Democrat response...
Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.) blasted "tea party" protests yesterday, labeling the activities "despicable" and shameful."

"The �tea parties� being held today by groups of right-wing activists, and fueled by FOX News Channel, are an effort to mislead the public about the Obama economic plan that cuts taxes for 95 percent of Americans and creates 3.5 million jobs," Schakowsky said in a statement.

"It�s despicable that right-wing Republicans would attempt to cheapen a significant, honorable moment of American history with a shameful political stunt," she added. "Not a single American household or business will be taxed at a higher rate this year. Made to look like a grassroots uprising, this is an Obama bashing party promoted by corporate interests, as well as Republican lobbyists and politicians.�
How she said that with a straight face was not disclosed.

Commenter #7
7.I am also disgusted by the Right Wing Radical movement. We should round them all up and put them onto trains and ship them to concentration camps. Who cares if we should "lose" a few million of them along the way.
There is one commenter who understands where Obama is headed and is cheering him on.

That of course doesn't get called hate speech by the left.
 
86Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 06:38
Not to be outdone, are commenters 37 and 38...


37.Schakowsky's hubby –Robert Creamer — was sentenced to five months in prison and eleven months of house arrest for bank fraud and tax violations. Schakowsky signed those returns for fradulant non-profits. That is "despicable" and shameful", but just your average Illinois Democrat!

Comment by Clemet Moore — April 16, 2009 @ 1:57 pm

38.The only despicable, shameful, and partisan person here is Rep. Schakowsky.

I would stake my life that this liberal was cheering Hillary on when she was screaming "We have a RIGHT to disagree with ANY administration…!"

Eh, Rep. Schakowsky? Soldiers were DYING when that happened, but I bet you didn't make a public statement about Hillary wishing President Bush would fail.
 
87Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 08:54
What part of Schakowsky's statement was not accurate?
 
88Perm Dude
      ID: 24321178
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 09:27
It isn't about accuracy, Razor. It is about (GOP) party unity. When your party is "attacked" you fight back.

That is why Gov Perry, for instance, would keep secession on the table. It is far more important to be faithful to your party than to your country.

Pretty sad when one side has such dictatorial impulses that they attempt to criminalize those who support the constitution.

OMG. Saying that seceeding from the Union is unconstitutional (see Texas v White if you don't believe me) is being dictatorial (!!!). Holy crap. You sound like a whiny pre-teen. "What a dictator not to let me drive the car once is awhile!"

 
89dwetzel on BB
      ID: 590182120
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 09:47
That comment #7 is stupid. I can't possibly police every liberal crackpot Blog comment, but yes, I will condemn that.

I now await your condemnation of #37 as irrelevant smearing and of #38 as trying to suppress a sitting Senator's right to free speech under the First Amendment to the Constitution which you profess to hold so dear (when it suits you).
 
90Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 10:23
What part of Schakowsky's statement was not accurate?

don't expect a response from Baldwin on that, unless it's something like "Salmon swim upstream, and mules are good to cross the desert. Which one are you part of?"

Commenter #7

7.I am also disgusted by the Right Wing Radical movement. We should round them all up and put them onto trains and ship them to concentration camps. Who cares if we should "lose" a few million of them along the way.

There is one commenter who understands where Obama is headed and is cheering him on.

That of course doesn't get called hate speech by the left.


it's absolutely hate speech, and it's a disgusting sentiment. Right or wrong on their sentiments, those wing nuts are still Americans, and as long as they're not breaking any laws, i see no reason to ship them anywhere.

of course, you've already shown YOUR support for shipping people to prisons and holding them without charge, but i'm sure you'll deflect that as well.

so, what were you saying about what the left will and won't do?
 
91boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 10:26
Read SCOTUS' Texas v White.

meaningless decision now, if maine succeeds tommorrow, you think government is going to enforce the decision?
 
92Perm Dude
      ID: 24321178
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 11:35
Yes, I do, for the same reasons as laid out in Texas v White. The union is irreducible.

Texas v White lays out, reinforces, grounds the constitutional reasons for the Union case in the Civil War. The Texas Independence party can rail all it wants about the unjustness of it all, but this is settled constitutional law.

[And the cost of a state losing the Civil War is that their argument no longer applies.]
 
93Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 11:37
This talk of secession is nonsense. As crazy about Texas as Texans are, they ain't giving up their American citizenship. I'd just let this idiot governor run his mouth and then call his bluff so he has to look like a fool to his constituency.
 
94Building 7
      ID: 3111252013
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 11:37
SCOTUS is charged, in the Constitution, with interpreting the constitutionality of the laws. This is settled case law.

Please direct me to the section of the Constitution where it says this. While you're at it, please show me where the concept of "settled law" is mentioned.
Judicial review began with Marbury vs. Madison.

Hell, I disagree with a lot of SCOTUS decisions (Bush v Gore, Kelo, Martin vs PGA) but that is their job.

Their rulings are for the specific case they are ruling on. The Supreme Court does not make law or settled law per the Constitution. This Texas v White does not prohibit a state from seceding IMO.

Pretty sad when some people are so "pro American" that they have to actually succeed when they don't get their way.

If you mean secede, who seceded?

I imagine when a territory joins the union, there are some documents that are signed. They may be different for different states. Perhaps somewhere in there is an answer.
Montana is working on legislation that states they agreed to follow the Constitution upon being admitted. But the federal government pulled a bait and switch by not adhereing to the 10th amendment, so their deal is now null and void. Something along those lines.

 
95Perm Dude
      ID: 24321178
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 11:41
Let me ask you this, then: What do you believe the role of SCOTUS to be? Your interpretation of its role is so far outside the mainstream I need to you be a little more clear here.
 
96boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 11:48
there is big difference between supreme court decision and enforcement see Worcester v. Georgia.

 
97Perm Dude
      ID: 24321178
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 11:51
Absolutely. But if a state tried to leave the Union, they would be prevented from doing so.
 
98biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 12:33
 
99Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 12:49
Absolutely. But if a state tried to leave the Union, they would be prevented from doing so.

How PD?

If Texas votes to leave would you be in favor of bombing them? How far would you take it?
 
100Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 12:57
Razor
What part of Schakowsky's statement was not accurate?

I would not so broadly characterize the protests as an effort to mislead the public about the Obama economic plan. Were I one of these teabaggers or if I believed they spoke for me (whatever, exactly, that message is) I'd resent that statement too. One legitimate criticism about these protests is their lack of focus. I'd bet that across the spectrum of teabag parties this week, a handful were much more rabid and hate-filled than most and that another (albeit smaller, I'm sure) handful were (somewhat) nonpartisan.

I thought briefly about her characterization of the organizers as "right wing" activists but that particular term is one of those hot buttons that some rightists will change the meaning of to best fit their sense of self-victimization at a particular time. For example, if DHS suggests that some "right-wing activists" could potentially be turned on to militias, Baldwin and other self-victimizers will rush to embrace the term, insisting that the government is talking specifically about fitting regular everyday conservatives for the iron maiden as I type. But if a congressperson should dare characterize an activist who happens to be a rightist as a "right-wing activist", then their sense of self-victimization will have them reject the term, crying that to so refer to everyday regular conservatives is to characterize them as fringe radicals. Pay attention, or you might miss the adoption of "right winger" as the new n-word for the American political right.

Now, regarding this practice of presenting individual blog comments as broader evidence of opposition antagonism or hostility; Baldwin, as desperate as you might be to win a political point in this thread, are you really sure this is a place you want to go? Just imagine the depths (even still unexplored by Tree and Boxman, I assure you!) we could drive our discourse to if such arguments in became acceptable decorum here. You could make any argument you want about the opposition and then support it by simply finding some dolt who wrote an asinine comment on some blog. Brilliant!

Baldy, even you have not previously stooped quite that low. And that would be pretty pathetic if the shamelessness of your post ended there, but it doesn't.

Normally (this is for any lurkers or newcomers who might not recognize the classic telltale signs that Old baldy isn't being very honest with the forum) B is very good about providing links to material he pulls from the web. But you'll note that he strangely didn't bother to source the material he pasted into #s 85 and 86. That's because he doesn't want you to know that the overwhelming majority of the (currently 79) comments under that report about Rep. Schakowsky at The Hill (a bipartisan site written and read by both sides) are highly critical of what she said. But if Old B showed you that, it would undercut his broad characterization of the "Democrat response", wouldn't it?

I'm reminded of his post (#619) in the Liberal Media Bias thread in which he compared positive articles about Obama's healthy lifestyle with a negative comment in an article about Bush's healthy lifestyle. Only it turned out that when I looked up the article that he pulled the comment from, it was a total fluff piece an which lance Armstrong (of all people!) was fawning over Bush's bike riding and the sentence he pulled was the lone negative comment in the very last sentence of what was an other overwhelmingly favorable article. Of course (as anyone who clicks through will see) I called him on it. His reaction; he changed the subject. Hey: never let the truth get in the way when there are liberals to demonize!

Clearly, I've hit a nerve here. That really wasn't the point, but the results are quite telling.
 
101Perm Dude
      ID: 24321178
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 13:00
It is "Mr Big" not "PD."

I would be in favor of a number of things to prevent them from doing so. Naval and aeriel blockades. Border closings. Financial accounts frozen.

There are all sorts of things that would bring Texas to its knees long before bombing is even on the table. You might as well ask if I wanted to nuke it.

This all has a "if I can't have my way I'm going to take my ball and go home" quality to it. 36 of the last 56 years there was a Texan in the White House. And now that Obama was elected they want to leave? What a bunch of childish whiners. And they wonder (seemingly without irony) why they are getting their butts handed to them at the polls.
 
102Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 13:03
Are there people here really defending Texas' right to secede? Am I really reading that?

Do you people really not know anything about the history of secession attempts in this country? Is this satire?
 
103DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 13:05
Hey: never let the truth get in the way when there are liberals to demonize!

I just got Boldwin and Boxman's orders for the bumper stickers. They ordered 500 each. reportedly, these will be used to cover their windows so they can continue to shield themselves from reality.
 
104biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 14:01
As long as we could build a wall around the Austin city limits, turn them into an autonomous city-state, and airlift 'em condoms and Chai, I'd cut the rest of Texas loose. Let them latch on to Mexico or Iraq, or whomever they thought would be a closer fit for them than Illinois.

Or let them go straight indy, and send feed corn and guns, at a hefty mark-up.

Maybe after 50 years of wallowing in 3rd-world status, they'll reconsider and come begging back. Or maybe not.
 
105Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 14:02
The chord Stewart strikes is pretty close to my sentiments. And for the record his criticism of Roesgen is dead-on.

The Daily Show With Jon StewartM - Th 11p / 10c
Nationwide Tax Protests
thedailyshow.com
Daily Show
Full Episodes
Economic CrisisPolitical Humor
 
106Frick
      ID: 3410551012
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 14:17
Isn't Texas the only state that was a separate country prior to becoming a state?

 
107biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 14:50
I see a parallel between this titillating teabag to-do and a similar gaff that happened here in Seattle, when local politicians pushed through funding for the unfortunately named South Lake Union Trolley.

They belatedly attempted to change the the name, (and hence the acronym), to no avail. She shall ever be affectionately known as The SLUT to seattlites. Sadly, she is not as often ridden as her name might suggest.
 
108Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 15:46
This all has a "if I can't have my way I'm going to take my ball and go home" quality to it. 36 of the last 56 years there was a Texan in the White House. And now that Obama was elected they want to leave? What a bunch of childish whiners. And they wonder (seemingly without irony) why they are getting their butts handed to them at the polls.

PD - don't Baldwin your comments.

Truth be told, it's really a small minority whining and crying. when i went to texas, i was stunned at the number of Obama supporters i met and hung out with, and equally as stunned by my conservative friends who really had a dis-taste for Perry.

Do you people really not know anything about the history of secession attempts in this country?

personally, i'm pretty peeved at Reagan for not giving the 1 billion dollars demanded by the Conch Republic when the seceded and subsequently surrendered.

after watching that clip, Mith, i am convinced that somewhere, Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hanitty, and a few others meet once a month in some dimly lit bar over craft beers, and say "ok, what can we say THIS month to keep the coffers filled and the sheep following, and can we somehow say the exact opposite of what we said last month, but have them not notice?"

the MSNBC part was especially funny. i've forwarded to my friend who works over there. i especially like the last woman's "if that's even possible" comment, because she knew EXACTLY what she was saying...brilliant!

 
109Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 17:56
What would happen to America, politically, if Texas seceded?

538



-- If Texas were not in the Union, the Democrats would currently have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate -- or at least they would once Al Franken gets seated. This is because, in a 98-seat Senate, only 59 votes would be required to break a filibuster.
-- If Texas were not in the Union, the Republicans would operate from a significantly weakened position in the House, since the net 8-vote advantage their congressional delegation gives them in the state (they have 20 seats to the Democrats' 12) is by far their largest.
-- If Texas were not in the Union, George W. Bush would never have become President in 2000 -- not because he'd be constitutionally ineligible (Bush, despite his Texas twang, was born in posh New Haven, Connecticut). Rather, he wouldn't have had enough Electoral Votes to defeat Al Gore.
-- If Texas were not in the Union, Barack Obama would have won the Electoral College 389-147 instead of 365-173 (note that there are two fewer votes total, because there would be two fewer Senators). The vast majority of Texas' electoral votes would be redistributed to lib'rul states like California (which would go from having 55 electoral votes to 59) and New York (34 rather than 31)

-- If Texas were not in the Union, Bush would still have defeated John Kerry 269-267, but Kerry would have an easier go of things, winning the election if he'd won either Iowa or New Mexico; he would not have had to win Ohio or Florida.
-- If Texas were not in the Union, there'd be a good case for making football an Olympic sport, which would sure as hell beat rhythmic gymnastics.
And, as one reader pointed out from the comments section:
We could build a wall to keep the illegals out, too.
Ok, so maybe Governor Perry and Biliruben are on to something.
 
110C1-NRB
      ID: 2911103011
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 18:24
Isn't Texas the only state that was a separate country prior to becoming a state?

Hawaii was a country with a king.

Being from Texas, the "Texas can secede anytime it wants to" is a pervasive urban (rural?) myth here. An early version of the Texas Constitution included wording regarding Texas citizens' right to vote to change the form of government. This Constitution was in place when Texas joined the Union (pre-Civil War) as well as wording that allows citizens the right to vote to divide into four more states for a total of five.

Not that either would ever happen.
 
111Wilmer McLean
      ID: 13317174
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 18:28
RE: 106 Isn't Texas the only state that was a separate country prior to becoming a state?

The thirteen colonies became independent states on July 2, 1776 until the Articles of Confederation were ratifed on March 1, 1781.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

...

That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States...


Vermont became a Republic in July, 1777 until joining the United States in 1791 as the 14th state.

Texas was a Republic from 1836 to December 29, 1845.

California may or may not have been a Republic for one month - June 14 to July, 1846.

The Kingdom of Hawaii became a state on August 21, 1959.
 
112Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 22:24
Sadly, she is not as often ridden as her name might suggest - bili

As if any public transportation is popular.
 
113Perm Dude
      ID: 24321178
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 22:26
What a silly comment.
 
114Seattle Zen
      ID: 423341717
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 22:33
Silly? That's just fuçking stupid.

Yeah, the poor New York subway system is just dying for riders.

Can you see past your own nose, Baldwin?
 
115Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 22:34
As if any public transportation is popular.

the 2.6 BILLION rides people take every year on the NYC subway, bus, and railroads would like to pull you aside and call you an idiot.

you have been bitchslapped so many times in this thread, it's wise you're not really responding to your asinine comments, such as the ones you made in post 85.
 
116Taxman
      ID: 3985420
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 00:00
What a great thread. A serious a$$ kicking of the rightous by the pinko-commies. The Fox news "tea bagging" tax protests by the proletariat (on behalf of the wealthiest 5%). Ha! I haven't laughed as hard in years.

And as a 6th generation Texan(fore-father was Sam Houston's wagon master at Battle of San Jacinto...32 yr resident of Austin/thank you for your considerations Bili) the majority of Texicans believe Rick Perry not only has head up his buttox, but since ascending to the governorship upon W's (Supreme Ct) election in 2000, Perry has proven to be the most spectacular political whore of all time.

When time permits, I'll start a "Rick Perry Did What" thread, with references, assuredly pissing off my rightous Texan bretheren, but unfortunately, all sadly true.

 
117Nerveclinic
      ID: 443461811
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 12:46


the majority of Texicans believe Rick Perry not only has head up his buttox, but since ascending to the governorship upon W's (Supreme Ct) election in 2000, Perry has proven to be the most spectacular political whore of all time.

I watched the entire 10 minute video of his comments aimed at Washington and was dumbstruck.

If you put it in a comic movie, people would say no one could ever be such a whore in real life. From the Bush like drawl, to the aw shucks, back slapping banter. What a joke and embarrassment.

You watch that and you understand why Europeans think we are so Effing stupid.

Where was this guy when Bush was running up the deficit and bailing out the banks?



 
118Texas Flood
      ID: 17210916
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 13:18
Yeah the Europeans have it right. I guess thats why our German
foreign is obsessed with moving back the the US when he
completes his studies in Germany.
 
119Taxman
      ID: 3985420
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 17:35
As if any public transportation is popular.

baldy, get your foot out of your mouth before it causes you to get a hemroid as your head appears to be up your Perry. It is my guess you have never lived/worked in a market providing well designed/run mass transit. If you had, you would know it's inexpensive versus alternatives and shortens commute time, not to mention the opportunity to use the commute time as you wish.

NYC not only great mass transit system. In days of yesteryear, Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) was my daily means of crossing bay to/from SF Financial District. It was the coolest thing this Texas boy had seen. Three years ago to visit daughter, flew into Oakland before jumping on BART to reach Mission District a couple miles south west of Financial District. Bart was still cool. I won't bother to point out the incredibly well run trolley car/bus system or the unpopular (not) Cable Cars in SF.

Although not public transportation, Google provides its employees bus service between SF to/from Google Campus in Silicone Valley. Buses contains wireless internet and room to work allowing Google employees to ck in for work when stepping onto bus and punching out when stepping off bus back at home.
 
120Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 17:44
i'll second SF's public transit system. i've visted that city three times in the last 18 months, and everytime, i was able to go wherever i wanted via public transit. great stuff.

i'm sure Baldwin will ignore this reality, or tell us he was misinformed by the media, or some other excuse he conjures up.
 
121Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 19:00
It is my guess you have never lived/worked in a market providing well designed/run mass transit. If you had, you would know it's inexpensive versus alternatives and shortens commute time, not to mention the opportunity to use the commute time as you wish.


You must not be from Chicago.

Take away the subsidies CTA and RTA get from the state and local government in Chicago and let's see just how affordable it is. All last year we heard about "Doomsday" with the buses in Chicago and how if they didn't get massive funding from Chicago rates would double and routes would be cut.

Now my taxes not only go to roads that don't get fixed (their answer to pot holes is a sign that says "rough road ahead, construction this summer") but now I'm also subsidizing people to take the train and the bus. More "efficiency" I suppose.

Then they just announced buses on I-55 can take the shoulder lane to bypass gridlock. So what happens to the schmuck in a car on I-55 with a flat tire? Monster truck rally perhaps and the bus hops the car?

Our tax and toll dollars go to the expressways in Illinois which include building shoulder lanes for breakdown and emergency vehicles. But now to lower commute times the buses get to use the shoulder. My taxes now pay for people to get home faster than I do and I'M the one paying. Nothing like cheating to use the shoulder lane, if I did that I'd get a ticket. More efficiency again eh?

As far as the pipe dream of commute time there is no direct connection between the O'Hare airport area in Rosemont and the western suburbs where the people live who commute to/from the airport and that area for work.

So regarding the good design where is the intellect in not connecting O'Hare Airport to the western suburbs of Chicago?

In my case I drive towards Rosemont and it takes me roughly 35 minutes by car. The same route by train is 90 minutes because there's no direct line. Enlighten me again with the time efficiency of mass transit.
 
122Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 19:03
i'll second SF's public transit system. i've visted that city three times in the last 18 months

Why am I not surprised with this given your penchant for sodomy adoration.
 
123Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 19:04
Suffice it to say you don't feel Chicago mass transit is well designed or run?
 
124Perm Dude
      ID: 183581817
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 19:04
Take away the subsidies CTA and RTA get from the state and local government in Chicago and let's see just how affordable it is.

Take away all the subsidies that roads get and see how affordable it would be for you to get around.

You insist on answering the wrong questions.
 
125Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 19:45
post 122 - there's really no response to that other than f*ck off and grow up.

post 121 - now I'm also subsidizing people to take the train and the bus. More "efficiency" I suppose.

yea, you are. otherwise, you'll sit in more traffic than you already do. enjoy working out of your car 8 hours a day.
 
126Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 20:19
Take away all the subsidies that roads get and see how affordable it would be for you to get around.

My tolls pay for the roads I drive on.
 
127Perm Dude
      ID: 183581817
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 20:24
Nonsense. Your driveway is off a toll road? Is all your food, medicine, and other stuff brought in on toll roads?

I won't even start on the massive subsidies that the airline industry receives. You ever fly somewhere?
 
128Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 20:30
Poorly picked battle.
 
129Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 20:51
By all means nitpick one point I made and put your head in the sand of the grander argument about the so called "efficiency" of mass transit.
 
130Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 20:58
you challenged the efficiency of mass transit.

there was a second point?
 
131Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 20:59
No better way to commute into Manhattan.
 
132Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 21:13
The evolution of this 'mass transit' tangent is a laugh.

Starting with the simple aside anecdote in post 107 and the from left field reaction in #112 and responses in #s 113-115 and 119 and since, I'm not quite sure that what Boxman calls the 'efficiency' of mass transit ever became "the grander argument". But I'm amused, so please carry on.
 
133Taxman
      ID: 3985420
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 23:42
Starting with the simple aside anecdote in post 107 and the from left field reaction in #112 That would be RIGHT field
 
134Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 00:22
I have no idea how he could challenge the notion that any puplic transit is popular. 10 years ago I moved from the suburbs where I grew up, to Brooklyn, specifically for the public transit. A good number of my friends did the same when they got jobs in Manhattan, too.

It wouldn't be possible for a place with the size and population density of New York City to function as a major economic engine, much less the world's foremost of the past century, without a massive and highly efficient public transit network moving huge numbers of people around very quickly.

I haven't owned a car since the year 2000. If you own a car, I probably spend considerably less money out of pocket for my transit needs than you. My mode of transportation emits far fewer greenhouse gasses than yours. I read the paper on my commute. I enjoy as much alcohol as I want with no concern for who will drive. I do not share the road with unsafe drivers. There are no major safety concerns to lead to laws about things like car seats, seatbelts, helmets and liability insurance. Breakdowns and other significant delays take up less of my time than traffic jams would.

Of course it has it's drawbacks. People are rude and unfortunately sometimes have different standards for personal hygene.

But obviously, public transit is very popular in NYC. And it's essential. Without it, this place would not exist as it does.
 
135Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 04:28
So you are the drunk on the 'el'.

I used public transportation when I went to college in Chicago.

I can only shudder at the memory.
 
136Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 06:24
Leave it to Mith to try and switch the argument around in the middle of the night. The discussion was about efficiency and then he uses the term popularity.

You don't need to be efficient to be popular, you just need to be the only available and realistic option.
 
137Perm Dude
      ID: 183581817
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 09:49
Leave it to Mith to try and switch the argument...

As if any public transportation is popular. (#112)

Leave it to a GOP apologist to blame a Democrat for what the public record shows is clearly something done by someone on the Right.


I used public transportation when I went to college in Chicago.

It seems much of your public policy philosophy revolves around bad college experiences.
 
138Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 10:21
i'm starting to think that he took the Brown Acid, and 40 years later, is still dealing with the fall out.
 
139Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 10:33
Baldwin
So you are the drunk on the 'el'.

Hmm, I made 8 or 9 positive observations about public transit vs driving. But you were able to mock one of them - a very convincing retort indeed. Would it help if I noted that I forgot to add that I don't have to buy any gasoline refined from foreign oil? Probably not, after you nonsensically belittled that one point so well. Very shrewd.

I can only shudder at the memory.

Well that settles it, doesn't it? Add to the fact that he was so easily able to poke fun at some 1/9th of my argument to the point that B hated his experience. Argument won. Hear that everyone? Public transit = wildly unpopular. And I thought I was trendy. Wait til I tell everyone on the platform tomorrow. They'll all feel just as silly as I do now.


Boxman
The discussion was about efficiency

Does it really somehow escape you that everyone reading this thread is capable of scrolling up a few inches and seeing for themselves that this is not true? This debate tactic of yours is the equivolent of a game of peek-a-boo.

Scroll up a few inches with me, won't you? The discussion became about what you call "efficiency" in post 121, when you changed the topic of the discussion to that. Before that, Tree and Tax wrote a couple of posts about the Bay Area transit system, in which Tax discussed it as being 'cool' and not 'unpopular' anad Tree commented on it's reach ("able to go wherever i wanted"). Prior to that werre 3 posts from PD, SZ and Tree, commentig on the silliness of Baldwin's original comment, which was specifically regadring popularity. Their responses were aboput the popularity of the NYC system.

So actually, little buddy, it was you who changed the subject to whatever it is you mean by efficiency in post 121. The word 'efficiency' hadn't even been used in this discussion prior to post 121! And for the record, right after that post you changed the subject again in #122 to calling tree a faggot. So actually, isn't every post that followed NOT on the topic of whether tree and "sodomy adoration" off topic? At least until you declared "efficiency" the "grander argument" in #129?

And for the record, public transit isn't a necessity for everyone who works in NYC. I know plenty of people who drive in as well. It's more expensive and Manhattan streets during rush hour aren't a pleasant driving environment but its certainly an option. And yet the majority of people with that option, including me and most of my friends who moved from the suburbs, choose the subway instead. Now that I've seen all of the impressive arguments levied by Boxman and Baldwin about the unpopularity and inefficiency of public transit, I realize what a terrible fool I've been!

Again I'm left wondering what I'm doing here. I came back here from blogging because I missed the interaction of exchanging ideas with people I respect, including from the political opposition. Blogging is fine but it's basically a conversation with yourself unless you have a large and active readership. But posts from people I respect on the right continue to dwindle here and settling for what's left feels more like babysitting than adult interaction.

Frick and others have commented on the poor decorum here and they're right. So I'll apologize to any lurkers for my tone here but really I'm at my wit's end. It seems that certain regulars here only enjoy an argument once it is sufficiently flushed down to homophobic insults and rhetorical dirty diapers. Sorry if you feel I'm a significant part of that.
 
140Seattle Zen
      ID: 223271910
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 11:56
I just watched the Daily Show clip in post 102 & low and behold, Woody Harrelson on stage at Hempfest appears at 4:33 in the clip. Woo Hoo!

A Fox News reporter asking when we are going to stand up to Fascism? My jaw hit the floor. You've got to be kidding me. Hey, is it Socialism or Fascism? I mean, it's hard to keep track of all these criticisms, how about a little consistency?

"He's just a BABY!"

"She thinks I'm wrong, son."

That was funny, very funny.
 
141Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 13:44

Box the reason mass transit is subsidized is getting that many more cars off the road is for the common good. If there were no mass transit, there would be that many more cars driving around, causing traffic, polluting and using more oil.

The subsidy isn't just for the person who uses mass transit, it's also for the employers who have their labor able to make it to work because there is affordable transportation.

It's for the commuter who has less traffic to deal with.

It's for anyone who buys gas because the demand for oil is reduced lowering cost.

It's for anyone who has to breath in the city air.

The list goes on.

When I lived in SF I took the subway to work every day. If there was no subway I would have driven my car. Multiply my choice by ten's of thousands and what would the effect be on everyone's life in that city be?

Why do we subsidize schools?

Common good.



 
142sarge33rd
      ID: 03311913
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 14:41
roflmao at 103. BRILLIANT!
 
143Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 15:01
Nerve: Box the reason mass transit is subsidized is getting that many more cars off the road is for the common good. If there were no mass transit, there would be that many more cars driving around, causing traffic, polluting and using more oil.

I'm presuming you're talking about the US and not Dubai so if not let me know. Since when has the US been concerned about oil consumption? The subsidies have nothing to do with that and everything to do with pandering to the lower class that cannot afford a car or a cab to work and the politicians who seek their votes. And yes it does lower congestion on the streets but please don't tell me that "the system works".

Why do we subsidize schools?

Common good.


I would be careful about mentioning American public schools and the word "good" in the same conversation.
 
144Perm Dude
      ID: 183581817
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 15:04
Why? Will it cause another fact-free rant on "Obamba?"

Since when has the US been concerned about oil consumption?

Uh, for some time now.
 
146Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 15:40
The subsidies have nothing to do with that and everything to do with pandering to the lower class that cannot afford a car or a cab to work and the politicians who seek their votes.

right. because everyone who takes the subway in NYC is the "lower class".

man. that's simply laughable. it's hard not to think of you as a fool (again) with a comment like that. wow. lol. and that was a legit LOL.
 
147Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 16:00
The tax-subsidized American public school system was the envy of the world for almost a century. It has a rough couple of decades and the stupidest corners of the right seize on the opportunity to propagandize the whole thing as a failure to their unfocused followers.

America deserves a smarter conservative base but it can't happen until the right's leaders challenge the elements within it which are anti-education and anti-progress. It's no easy task, because the the hateful anti-progress/anti-education machine has installed a witch hunt atmosphere within the ranks of the movement in which anyone who questions the GOP's more regressive policies will suffer the political results of having his reputation attacked as s/he is called RINO or neocon. So it's much safer to stick to the game plan of always blaming the liberals for every last problem the country faces, rather than rock the boat and turn the spotlight in on themselves. After suffering historic losses in three consecutive election cycles, the options for trying to porevent #4 look like: 1) rethink some of your less popular policies or 2) blame the liberals and hope their policies also fail, bringing the country back to the GOP. The unofficial leader of the GOP has planted his flag. And the reason he is the unofficial leader is that every elected official who has challenged that flag has returned to apologize for doing so.

There is no consensus whatsoever on what it means to be a part of the conservative base today.

Until the right rediscovers real conservatism (and until the masses realize this is something completely different from what Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh and Joe the Plumber and Glen Beck and Ann Coulter offer) the GOP will continue to flounder and many of the arguments of the right will continue to sound like: "careful about mentioning American public schools and the word "good" in the same conversation" and "As if any public transportation is popular." and the Republican governor of Texas openly discussing seceding from the union at one of a major national series of protest events called "tea parties" at which many participants naively call one other "teabaggers".
 
148Razor
      ID: 41323216
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 16:32
Thank you, Boxman, for reminding us how misguided and clueless the American public can be. It is amazing that something so beneficial to virtually everyone could be thought of so poorly, but sadly, not everyone can see the obvious even when it's right in front of their face.

As someone who lives in a city with a merely adequate but far from spectacular public transit system, I'll tell you what would happen if MARTA were to shutdown for a while:

- Virtually every business in town would suffer as and absenteeism would go up as many workers without cars would be hard pressed to find a way to the office consistently.

- Commute times would increase for all leading to more tardiness and a further decline in productivity.

- The convention and tourism business, the lifeblood of any downtown, would plummet as conventioneers and tourists could not easily move around town, especially to and from the airport. Hotels, tourist attractions and restaurants would suffer badly.

- Retail businesses and restaurants would suffer as both the time and money cost of going out to eat and shop would increase, thereby decreasing people's desire to do so.

- Attendance at sporting events, concerts, festivals, and other major city events would fall as it would be harder and more time consuming to get to and from heavily attended events with limited parking.

- And of course, there are the jobs that MARTA itself provides to hundreds of people.

- Our already bad smog problem would be made much worse due to the increased traffic.

- Traffic accidents would increase as a result of the increase in drivers.

- The cost to maintain roads would increase as a result of the increased traffic.

I could go on, but the point is that public transit is a necessity for a major city. This is not a debatable subject. The degree to which public transit should be funded by public money is debatable, but given how many parties benefit from public transit, whether it should receive public funding is not debatable. It should and, rightfully, it does receive a lot of public funding. I would argue that in most cases, it's not enough, but that's another discussion.

 
149Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 20:35
MITH

By what authority do you call Rush anything less than the voice of the conservative base and their own deeply held principles. He and Ann are who the right has voted for. The losers who the money keeps driving thru the primary system do not reprsent the right and there is the rub.
 
150dwetzel on BB
      ID: 590182120
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 20:56
Someone's bitter, methinks.

All for free markets except when they don't work for you?

Both hating McCain campaign finance and hating the fact that "money got him nominated" is one of the most laughably inconsistent things I have seen in a while, and that is saying something.
 
151Perm Dude
      ID: 183581817
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 21:33
The "Take No Responsibility" Party strikes again!
 
152Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 21:40
The details in McCain's finance reform gave Soros inordinate influence in both parties outcomes.

Soros doesn't have the slightest business deciding who the republicans nominate and yet he did.
 
153Perm Dude
      ID: 183581817
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 21:47
So it is George Soros' fault?
 
154Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 23:08
He and Ann are who the right has voted for.

i must have missed that election. no one voted for them. they took over the party on a bully pulpit, and have doomed it to obscurity if they keep trying to run the show.
 
156Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 06:14
By what authority do you call Rush anything less than the voice of the conservative base and their own deeply held principles.

Well, just taking a recent example, you're now arguing that it's a deeply held conservative principle to defend the use of torture by American operatives and to mock those who seek an end to the practice?

The right has voted for the defenders of America's status as a regime which tortures it's prisoners?
 
157Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:03
So easy to oppose straw men. Where did I say that?
 
158Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:09
MITH

As a matter of fact, as someone who believes with every fiber of my body, that Obama or some Alinsky believing political heir of his will use those same tactics on me, you should know I take a very reserved, cautious and measured approach to the gray area between mints on 'Club Gitmo' pillows, and outright torture.

I don't expect Tree to be capable of processing that reality and recognizing that point but I expect better of you.
 
159Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:13
In the Direction of the GOP thread is an audio clip of Rush defending the use of torture on prisoners of the USA. Everyone who heard that clip and read #156 above understands the extrapolation and knows it's no straw man. Your voice of the conservative base is a defender of torture. Your denial of this only further delegitimizes you here.
 
160Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:19
Well, Baldwin is officially not conservative, according to his own standard.

And also in need of a bodyguard to protect him from the big, bad Democrats who have targeted him for a re-education camp.
 
161Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:22
I would have to know more about exactly his stance on various interogation techniques.

In my experience listening to him, which is not extensive, he believes torture claims from the left are hysterical mischaracterizations. Now how he would react to specific tactics is no doubt in my mind more nuanced.

It could well be however that when it comes right down to it, I would disagree with him substantially on this point. I do not believe he is as bloody-minded black-and-white as Cheney on this issue.
 
162Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:23
Torture is not by definition a conservative position. Just ask your buddy Fidel.
 
163Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:34
I don't have any friends named Fidel.

American conservatism most definitely has a position on torture, and it seems to be that if we aren't doing it, we stand to lose the war on terror. Your lax position on torture, articulated on a message board, may very well risk our national security.
 
164Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:42
It could well be however that when it comes right down to it, I would disagree with him substantially on this point.

Well you tell me if you could come up with a more disingenuous defense of the practice of torture than this:
RUSH: Man, this is torture? Slapping somebody in the face is torture? Sleep deprivation is torture? Throwing somebody in a little cramped environment with a caterpillar. Look, we found out this Zubaydah guy cuts people's heads off, who murders people, who tries to engage in mass killing, and by the way, according to Mukasey, the former attorney general, and Mike Hayden, the former CIA director, all this stuff worked, including the waterboard on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. They say it is a myth -- and there's a lot of myths -- they say in their brilliant op-ed that it's a myth that people lie to escape torture. For people to say that, to have an objection, it shows their ignorance. What interrogation is about is gathering intel. It's not just exclusively about trying to ascertain guilt. It's about ascertaining intel and there are many techniques that you use. One of the techniques to test a suspect is to ask him questions to which you already know the answers. Find out if he's being honest with you or not from the get-go. The idea that torture doesn't work, that's been put out from John McCain on down. McCain for the longest time said torture didn't work, and then he admitted in his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention last summer that he was broken by the North Vietnamese, so what are we to think here?
So, unless you defend his blatant taking of McCain's words out of context ("being broken" according to McCain, actually meant attempting suicide and confessing to criminal activities and piracy) where you part with the conservative base is that you stand more firmly in opposition to torture?
 
165Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:43
we stand to lose the war on terror

What would losing in the war on terror be defined as?
 
166Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:43
blah blah blah blah insert unwarranted insult from Baldwn blah blah blah....

did you go back and listen to the audio clip MITH pointed you toward?

be careful about disagreeing with Rush. you might find yourself apologizing next week.
 
167Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 10:14
It seems that while Old Baldy returned to respond to the Sarah Palin thread at 09:56, to respond to a post I wrote at 09:46 while I wait response to #164 above, which I posted at 09:42. Not to rush him (really) but I do want a response to the question in that post, so I'll repeat and bold the question in attempt to ensure it doesn't get lost in the shuffle:

Baldwin - is it fair to say that where you part with the conservative base is that you stand more firmly in opposition to torture?
 
168Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 25, 2009, 13:22
Looks like Baldwin will have to compromise too much to answer that one.

Anyway, here's Reagan policy advisor and Bush41 treasury official Bruce Bartlett
TAX TEA PARTY FANTASY
Friday, April 24, 2009 10:56 AM

I have spent most of my life trying to cut taxes. Back in 1977, while a staffer for Congressman Jack Kemp, I helped draft the Kemp-Roth tax bill, which was endorsed by Ronald Reagan and enacted into law in 1981. According to the Treasury Department, this is the largest tax cut in American history.

So one might assume that I was out protesting taxes along with many of my friends on April 15. But going to rallies is not my thing; I thought my time and skills were better spent analyzing tax burdens to see what evidence justifies the sudden appearance of mass protests against taxes.

The first thing I did was look at the U.S. tax burden compared to other similar countries. Vast amounts of such data are compiled by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development in Paris and easily available on its web site.

The first thing I did was look at total revenues — federal, state and local — as a share of the gross domestic product. This percentage is the best summary measure we have for the burden of government on the economy.

The latest complete data are for 2006. They show that governments at all levels consumed 28 percent of GDP in the U.S. Of the 30 OECD countries, we ranked 26, just slightly above Japan and Korea. Only Turkey and Mexico had significantly lower tax burdens.

The most heavily taxed countries are Denmark and Sweden, where government takes 49.1 percent of GDP. On average, the OECD countries of Europe had a tax ratio of 38 percent — 10 percentage points higher than the U.S.

Since the level of taxation here is already considered tyrannical by tea party organizers, any tax level approaching that in Europe would surely constitute slavery in their eyes. Of course, anyone who has ever traveled to Europe knows that the people there are no less free than we are.

For the most part, Europeans just prefer to pay higher taxes for universal health care, while Americans have the cost deducted from their paychecks by their employers. If Americans took all the money they pay for health insurance and added it to their tax bills, getting free health care in return, our tax/GDP ratio would be about the same as that in Europe.

Keep in mind that Americans have always been willing to pay higher taxes when they got something they need in return. Every family with children looks carefully at the quality of local schools when buying a house and almost all are willing to pay higher property taxes to get good schools. States and localities with the lowest taxes are seldom the best places to live because of a concomitant lack of services.

I published my analysis at Forbes.com and sent it around to some of my conservative friends. The universal reaction was, “So what? Why should Americans care if foreigners are even more overtaxed than we are?”

I thought this was a fair point, so I did another analysis looking only at taxation in the U.S. Even if our taxes are low compared to those in other countries, tax protests might be justified by a rising tax level.

The first thing I did was look for more recent data on taxes as a share of GDP on the website of the Congressional Budget Office. It says that total federal revenues will consume 15.5 percent of GDP this year, down from 17.7 percent last year, 18.8 percent in 2007, and 20.9 percent in 2000.

This is a very sharp reduction in the tax/GDP ratio. As a consequence, the federal government will take less out of the economy in the form of revenue than any year since 1950
.

But what about the average American, I wondered? Is it possible that the tax code has changed in some way that makes families worse off even though the aggregate level of taxation has fallen?

To answer this question, I went to the website of the Tax Policy Center. It has a table that looks at federal income taxes on the median family’s income. The median is the exact middle of the income distribution—half of all families make more, half make less.

In 2007, the latest year available, the median family paid 5.91 percent in federal income taxes. In every year from 1958 — the first year available — through 2002, it paid more. In 1981, before the Reagan tax cut took effect, the federal income tax rate on the median family was 11.79 percent—twice what it was in 2007.

Many commentators complained that these data are meaningless because they are skewed by the large and growing number of Americans that pay no federal income taxes. According to the Joint Committee on Taxation, 43 percent of federal tax returns filed in 2007 had no income tax liability.

My critics, however, misunderstood how the Tax Policy Center data are calculated. They are not affected in any way by the number of people not paying taxes. The data simply look at the median family’s income and use current tax law to estimate its tax liability.

In response, my tea party-attending friends said I had left out payroll taxes. But there has been no change in the payroll tax rate for many years and most people will get back cash benefits equal to everything they pay in Social Security taxes plus a lot more. Anyway, I didn’t see any signs at the various tax protests complaining about payroll taxes.

But what about state and local taxes, my critics replied? This is always a problem area, analytically, because they vary widely from one place to another. However, according to the National Association of State Budget Officers, the aggregate amount of state tax increases this year amounts to just $1.5 billion; all of that accounted for by one state, California. Two-thirds of states either cut taxes or had no increase.

Moreover, in surveying the location of tax protests compiled by a group called FreedomWorks, which organized the demonstrations, the bulk of tea parties appear to have taken place in Texas and Florida, which have no state income tax, or states where there has been no tax change. Few protests occurred in high-tax states; most were in states where they are low.

Finally, in desperation, my critics said that it is not actually the level of taxation today that they are protesting. It’s the implicit tax resulting from large federal deficits that really concerns them.

I might have been willing to buy this argument except for the fact that these same people justified a huge tax cut in 2001 on the grounds that large budget surpluses, which had arisen toward the end of Bill Clinton’s administration, were proof of over-taxation since the government was taking in more revenue than it needed to pay its bills.

Furthermore, the conservative line for the last eight years was that budget deficits don’t matter, as Vice President Dick Cheney famously remarked when Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill raised concerns about them at a cabinet meeting in 2002. (O’Neill was fired shortly thereafter for not being on-message.) It’s at least a bit disingenuous for conservatives to suddenly change their view on deficits simply because their team is no longer in power.


In my opinion, these tea parties had little, if anything, to do with current or projected tax levels. They were just partisan pep rallies designed to make out-of-power conservatives and Republicans feel better. Secondarily, they were about building audiences for Fox News and right-wing talk radio hosts.

But I will grant that some of those attending tea parties are now genuinely concerned about our fiscal future even though they weren’t during the George W. Bush Administration. (Where, I wonder, were the protestors when Bush and a Republican Congress massively expanded Medicare in 2003?) But it’s not enough just to complain; specific proposals need to be developed that go beyond cutting foreign aid and earmarks — just about the only spending that conservatives ever talk about cutting.

In particular, anti-tax activists need to explain how we are going to cut Medicare by tens of trillions of dollars when its beneficiaries already represent the largest voting bloc in America and its ranks will grow sharply as the baby boom generation retires. Because of rising Medicare costs, we would be facing massive budget deficits in the near future even if Barack Obama had not been elected, Republicans still controlled Congress, and there had been no economic crisis.

Still, all movements must start somewhere. If the April 15 tea parties are really about more than just electing Republicans and increasing Fox News ratings, I may join them next year. In the meantime, protestors need to do a better job of figuring out what they are protesting and devise a real plan for dealing with our nation’s fiscal problem. Otherwise, their efforts will amount to nothing more than hot air.
 
169nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sat, Apr 25, 2009, 17:47

The subsidies have nothing to do with that and everything to do with pandering to the lower class that cannot afford a car or a cab to work and the politicians who seek their votes.

Yeah and what about all the executives who work in NY and live in Connecticut and take the train to their 6 figure jobs every day? My father did it for years, sat on the same train as Howard Cosell who commuted...I guess he was being pandered to?

Does it hurt when you shove your foot that far down your throat? Or is your throat used to it?



 
170nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sat, Apr 25, 2009, 18:17

Box Since when has the US been concerned about oil consumption?

Well the USA is a big country. Sure plenty of politicians have been in the pocket of big oil, likely most President of the last 25+ years Reagan through Obama).

There are still plenty of people at the local level concerned.

 
171Razor
      ID: 41323216
      Sat, Apr 25, 2009, 19:28
through Obama? Haven't seen much so far to suggest that he is interested in catering to the oil lobby, and lots to suggest he is against them.
 
172nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sun, Apr 26, 2009, 02:47


through Obama? Haven't seen much so far to suggest that he is interested in catering to the oil lobby, and lots to suggest he is against them.

Are you sure about that? To soon to tell but, so far he is doing nothing to hurt big oil.

Big oil isn't concerned abut renewable sources of energy (solar and wind) which are the two things Obama talks about. They will do nothing to slow down big oil as even optimistic estimates admit the potential for it to take on any real energy capacity over the next decades is very limited by the technology.

The two quickest ways to decrease oil consumption, Obama is doing nothing about so far.

1) Starting a large scale nuclear power plant project.

2) Switching government fleet vehicles to natural gas and encourage the rest of the country to begin to switch to natural gas.

Either of these would have a major effect on the use of oil and he's not talking about either.

While you can't put nuclear power in the tank it could take over the electricity consumption (As it has in France for instance) and free up all natural gas to be used in cars.

We have an abundance of natural gas in our own country. It is cheaper, it burns cleaner and we don't need to buy it from our enemies.

No brainer really. So far haven't heard a peep. Big oil must be very happy.

Look it's early, I have an open mind and I will give him time (He has his hands full) but I've seen nothing yet to suggest he will change our oil guzzling ways.



 
173nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sun, Apr 26, 2009, 14:29

The subsidies have nothing to do with that and everything to do with pandering to the lower class that cannot afford a car or a cab to work and the politicians who seek their votes.

The more I think about it. I rode the bus to work in Seattle, even though I had a Mazda Miata, and could easily afford to drive. Seated around me were many other middle class people.

ON the train in San Francisco I rode to work with mostly Middle class workers while I left my Acura RSX at home. It was just so easy to jump on the train.

How does that fit into this vision of lower class people being the primary consumers of public transport?

 
174Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Sun, Apr 26, 2009, 22:24
MITH #167

I have been away at a religious convention, not avoiding you.

I have no idea what the conservative base position on torture is. I would guess most a) believe the accusations are overblown, and b) really don't care if they drop a fly in some guy's box in order to prevent the next three Bali bombings, IF that guy is a top five leader of AQ who they are reasonably certain actually holds that information.

I think Natt Hentoff has a principled position that I have agreed with since he was the first one to raise the issue many years ago.

That said, it's awful tempting to go Dirty Hairy when there is a hostage likely to have his or her throat cut and you have one of the hostage taker's co-conspirators in custody.

I'm not sure the answer to that choice even breaks down along party lines. Qualms certainly didn't occur to Pelosi when she was briefed on the interogation methods in the first place. In fact she/they [dem congressional leaders getting briefed] asked if they couldn't get more aggressive in questioning.

 
175Seattle Zen
      ID: 513122623
      Mon, Apr 27, 2009, 01:07
Qualms certainly didn't occur to Pelosi when she was briefed on the interogation methods in the first place. In fact she/they [dem congressional leaders getting briefed] asked if they couldn't get more aggressive in questioning.

Repeating this myth over and over will not make it true.
 
176Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Apr 27, 2009, 07:29
SZ - since when has truth mattered to the poster in question?
 
177Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Mon, Apr 27, 2009, 09:16
Repeating Nancy Pelosi's spin job trying to get out of that jam will not succeed.
 
178Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Apr 27, 2009, 09:43
i wonder what you learned at that religious convention. certainly not honesty and integrity.
 
179Perm Dude
      ID: 28392711
      Mon, Apr 27, 2009, 12:11
I really don't see how the GOP apologists think that they can make this about Pelosi and still get out clean. What Pelosi knew or didn't know what entirely in the hands of the Bush Administration (who authorized torture repeatedly in their efforts to try to find the link between al-quada and Iraq).
 
180Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 11:10
Despite being "taxed enough already", 9/12 event DC teabaggers decry the inadequacy of the Washington Metropolitan Transit Authority.

Rep. Kevin Brady (R-TX): "People couldn’t get on, missed start of march. I will demand answers from Metro"
 
181DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 11:38
Obviously they should have ordered additional trains from the magical train fairy who can materialize them as needed.

As pointed out in the link, if they hate government programs so much, why use public transportation at all? Should have just taken private cabs along the roads--er, well, not the roads, because those are public works projects too.

Should have hired a private cab to drive across people's lawns, I guess.
 
182Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 11:42
Everything is free!

err, wait. they're against that, right? i think? what exactly ARE they against...
 
183Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 12:36
Washington Monthly
In some instances, Brady said constituents relied on private enterprise -- taxi cabs -- rather than the (ahem) public option. The conservative lawmaker described this as a bad thing. Local officials, Brady said, should have made "a great effort to simply provide a basic level of transit" to the public.
 
184boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 26, 2009, 11:04
A bit off topic but I was thinking of making a Teabagger costume for Halloween and was looking for suggestions. I was thinking of badly made home made confederate flag t-shirt and sign that said something like "they took our taxes". I am looking for any input. Do you think the t-shirt would be offensive, I want make sure people realize it is a joke.
 
185Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Oct 26, 2009, 12:54
How about these signs?
 
186biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Mon, Oct 26, 2009, 13:15
I am scratching my head trying to figure out how anyone could differentiate between a real teabagger and a joke teabagger.

Your only hope is that you live someplace where there aren't any real teabaggers, because I am guessing they would be universally offended; unless they just assumed you were one of them...
 
187Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Mon, Oct 26, 2009, 13:24
boikin, that is an awesome idea! I am going to have think about doing that one myself.
 
188boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 26, 2009, 13:26
oh man i love the "get a brain morans" sign.

yeah that was the part i was trying to figure out myself how to distinguish the real from the joke teabagger.
 
189biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Mon, Oct 26, 2009, 13:47
I nice pair of rebel flag sun-glasses with a couple soggy teabags tied from them, so that they are resting on your chin.

That should remove any doubt.

Add a shirt or a sign with something as ironic as the above, and you should be all set!
 
190Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Mon, Oct 26, 2009, 13:53
RE: 86

I am scratching my head trying to figure out how anyone could differentiate between a real teabagger and a joke teabagger.

I think Poe's Law applies to teabaggers as well.
 
191tree on the treo
      ID: 287212811
      Mon, Oct 26, 2009, 14:18
how about velcroing two tennis balls to your chin and wearing a t-shirt that says "teabaggin' my way back to you, babe"...
 
192biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Mon, Oct 26, 2009, 14:19
Heh. I'd missed Poe's Law. That's great, and exactly why I was struggling.
 
193Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Oct 26, 2009, 14:43
That's great.

I love the examples, including the link to the archived Conservativepedia site in which it was posited that the spread of animals after Noah landed might have been helped by volcanoes:

It is possible that volcanoes in the Mount Ararat region were able to transport the smaller animals over much greater distances than the animals could get just by walking.
 
194Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 18:36
Tens of thousands converge on Nashville for Tea Party Convention... check that, it's 600.

Can't really figure out why they are generating such fawning media coverage. Must be the conservative media bias.
 
195Frick
      ID: 59141517
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 18:51
Obviously, the NY Times is a well known bastion of radical conservatives.

Can't say I blame them for giving the group coverage, how many people can stop watching an absolute train wreck.
 
196Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 23:22
I think the second half of the following CSPAN video of Joseph Farah speaking at the Tea Party convention today is must watching whether you agree with it's direction and premise or not. It is probably the most important video you will watch in preparation for this election cycle. You won't really understand it if you don't.
 
197Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 09:49
It is probably the most important video you will watch in preparation for this election cycle. You won't really understand it if you don't.

Listening to Farah and his birther conspiracy is about as compelling as watching paint dry, especially since I have followed his obsession with the issue on WND for well over a year.

So, humor me. How is Farah's speech important to the election cycle? I watched it(well, most of it), and I don't understand.

I understand there is a contingency of tea party attendees who oppose Obama on every level no matter what he does, but to say the birth certificate issue is front and center as the most important 2010 election issue, neither do I understand nor agree with it.
Apparently, neither does Townhall attendee, Jillian Bandes.

Attendees are wildly enthusiastic, not just about speakers, but about ideas. Those ideas are focused almost exclusively on basic conservative principles like limited government and fiscal responsibility (not the Obama birther conspiracy). And attendees are barely aware of the criticism that has been launched at the Tea Party Convention by mainstream media outlets.

Bandes doesn't give any examples of mainstream media criticism launched at the convention, probably because most of the criticism of the convention has come from other Tea Party enthusiasts.

Michelle Bachman and Marsha Blackburn announced that they’re withdrawing from the so-called National Tea Party Convention. Question is, will Sarah Palin stick it out for the $100k?

The problem is, as I’ve stated many times on Twitter, the Tea Party wasn’t involved with this convention. There may have been a couple local Tea Party folks participating, but none of the real players in the movement were involved. If you’re asking how I have the inside skinny on all this, then you haven’t been paying attention to the movement over the last year.

This “convention” was about one guy, attorney Judson Phillips, and, in my opinion, his attempt at personal gain. What was he thinking? Just because Phillips was the guy who reviewed Michael Leahy’s ridiculous lawsuit filing (not ridiculous that it was filed, it needed to be. much of the substance of it, however, was ridiculous. I question Phillips’ capacity as an attorney if he greenlit that filing) against some Internet trolls last year, he’s suddenly part of the movement? Uh…I don’t think so.

The beltway had better figure out who is and who isn’t part of this movement. And to the Tea Party folks out there, it’s time to start distancing yourselves from what I call Tea Party Snake Oil Salesmen. You’ll know these types of shysters because they try to turn every Tea Party discussion into ways to make money.

link

Probably a better litmus of the importance of the Tea Party movement is in the Florida Republican primary for senate.

Former state House Speaker Marco Rubio has now jumped to a 12-point lead over Governor Charlie Crist in Florida’s Republican Primary race for the U.S. Senate.

Crist’s fortunes appear to be tied in part to national unhappiness over President Obama and his policies. Many conservatives began rebelling against Crist when he became one of the few Republican governors to embrace Obama’s $787-billion economic stimulus plan last year. The national Republican party establishment endorsed Crist early on, but a number of prominent national party conservatives have since announced their support for Rubio. Nationally, the GOP’s Florida Senate race is being watched as a test of the new “Tea Party” mood among many conservative and traditionally Republican voters.
 
198Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 13:10
Nothing would make the Democratic Party happier than seeing Rubio knock off Crist in the primary. You could run Michael Dukakis, Walter Mondale, or Adalai Stevenson against Rubio and win.

I'm not in the "moderates are good for the Republican party" camp. I like seeing huge Democratic majorities.
 
199Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 14:25
I prefer effective leadership myself. Huge Democratic majorities lead to lazy leadership and vacuous partisanship masquerading as ideas.

The mid to late 70's were an awful time for the Democratic Party, precisely because it had a huge majority and thereby became disconnected with the people that elected them.

100% of the time I'd rather have a Crist than a Rubio as the junior Senator from Florida. But if you think you can run anyone against Rubio you'd be dead wrong. Even this far out, only 13% are undecided when faced with a Rubio vs Meek election. And Rubio is up 17 points in head to head matchups with Meek and Crist.

In Florida among conservatives, only 14% have an unfavorable view of Rubio. He's likely to kick Crist's ass in the primary, and roll on to a big win in November against Meek, whose biggest weakness appears to be that he is a Democrat.

Obama won by appealing to independent and moderate voters. Have we forgotten that lesson already?
 
200Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 15:01
Even the Tea Party members are having trouble with the Birther schtick
 
201Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 16:31
re: 200

If Spinal Tap was about journalism and not music, that would have come right out of it.

it almost seems too absurd of a conversation to be true.
 
202Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 16:55
Meek, whose biggest weakness appears to be that he is a Democrat.

Actually, I'd say that last name is his biggest weakness ;)

It's way early, who knows, maybe Crist would pull a Lieberman and go run as an indy...

Huge Democratic majorities lead to lazy leadership and vacuous partisanship masquerading as ideas.

There have been far too few instances of this to draw proper conclusions. It seems more likely that vacuous, ineffective leaders lead to vacuous, partisan masquerades, having nothing to do with the size of their majority.
 
203Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 20:14
Tea Party pickup lines
 
204Boldwin
      ID: 111562213
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 22:34
The line between Tree and PD starts to blur.
 
205Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 23:03
now i understand what Baldwin sees in Sarah Palin. They both completely lack a sense of humour.
 
206Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 23:40
Don't forget the perceived sense of being persecuted.
 
207C1-NRB
      ID: 2911103011
      Thu, Feb 25, 2010, 09:47
TeaParty Link 'o the Day

Shame. Shame, I say.
 
208Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Feb 27, 2010, 15:18
The MSNBC morning show is hosted by Christina Brown.

Tamron Hall anchors MSNBC Live and co-anchors weekday afternoons 3-4 PM.

That's 2 of MSNBC's 20 regular anchors and show hosts who are minorities. You might make a case that this is too few or not representative and you might have a fair point but you'll have to show that anywhere near 10% of tea partiers are minorities if I'm going to take the linked video (and corresponding selective shame from C1-NRB) in the previous post seriously.

An awful lot of tea party photos have been posted in this thread in the past 10 months+, many of them (the ones I posted, anyway) pulled right from tea partier twitter messages, and I'd be shocked if you could get an honest tally that even approached 1%
 
209Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Feb 27, 2010, 15:24
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
 
210Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Feb 27, 2010, 15:34
re: The Coffee Party - i just joined that group on FB this morning. :oD

re: Tamron Hall - a good friend of mine going back more than 25 years, and a damned talented newswoman. She came from a small town in Texas, and made good.