Forum: pol
Page 3305
Subject: Railroading a college student for murder in Italy?

  Posted by: Perm Dude - [154552311] Thu, Jun 11, 2009, 23:28
The "case" against Amanda Knox

Interesting how perspective can change everything about a case.

MBJ, have you heard about this case?
 
1biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Jun 11, 2009, 23:49 		Interesting. Obviously, in Seattle, it's been front page news on and off for some time.

Hopefully she gets a fair trial.
 
2TB
      ID: 2121280
      Fri, Jun 12, 2009, 02:07 		http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

From a different perspective.
 
3boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jun 12, 2009, 11:18 		I am surprised this story has taken so long to surface, it was big news in Europe back when it happened. From everything I read then she look pretty guilty with out the confession.
 
4Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Jun 12, 2009, 11:37 		i was thinking just the opposite.

everything i've read (and i've been loosely following this case for quite some time now) shows me she's innocent, and being railroaded by a prosecutor who's pride is already on the line with other ethics violations looming over his head.
 
5Seattle Zen
      ID: 125251211
      Fri, Jun 12, 2009, 12:25 		From everything I read then she look pretty guilty with out the confession.

Wow, what the hell have you been reading? There is no evidence other than the prosecutor conviction that her "attitude" in the days after the murder point to her guilt. Well, they did find her hair in the house... you know, the house SHE LIVES IN.

There are few cases I have come across that are more obviously wrong than this.
 
6Seattle Zen
      ID: 275151212
      Fri, Jun 12, 2009, 13:16 		I cannot write a detailed, well researched post on this topic because I have purposefully avoided reading too much about it, it just would make my blood boil and I need less of that in my life.

What I have gathered is that we know who the murderer is. His name is Rudy Guede and he has already been convicted. The prosecutor is convinced that Ms. Knox and her boyfriend was involved, that they all had an orgy and killed Amanda. There is no evidence that she or the boyfriend were involved, I mean none. The whole notion is ridiculous and makes me even more proud of our criminal legal system. This would not happen here.
 
7boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jun 12, 2009, 16:22 		Wow, what the hell have you been reading?

Not sure i have not read anything about in about year. But from what remember the British press were all over her and where painting her as guilty.
 
8Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Jun 12, 2009, 16:42 		Yeah, the British press have been like the packs of hyenas they typically are when faced with people having sex.
 
9Frick
      ID: 4945458
      Sat, Jun 13, 2009, 11:07 		Re: 6

There have plenty of cases in the US of innocent people being railroaded. Some of them have been rectified and others are still being worked on, but I think it is a stretch to say it couldn't happen here.
 
10Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 11:54 		Railroaded indeed. This makes me sick.

Knox guilty



Italian justice just became a oxymoron. She would have received a fairer trial in the Sudan. Just preposterous.
 
11Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 12:34 		No American citizen should ever be prisoned in a foreign jail. If she is guilty of murder, fine, let the Italians convict her and then bring her here to serve time.
 
12Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 13:07 		Why?

If a foreigner commits a crime in the US, should they be sent to their home country to do the time?
 
13bibA
      ID: 3510191216
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 13:24 		So Bauxman - Defendants who are found guilty in another country then should be brought to the U.S. to serve their time. Do you believe they should then serve the full sentence as determined in the country where they committed their crime? Do they appeal here or there? What about capital crimes? Are they to be executed in the manner prescribed there?

Remember when the foreign student was caned in Singapore for littering? Cane him here?

Talk about opening bags of worms! Talk about having to spend more money than we do presently!
 
15bibA
      ID: 3510191216
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 13:37 		Zen - What makes you so sure she is innocent?

What about her falsely accusing Congolese pub owner Patrick Lumumba of the crime?

I'm also curious as to why Knox receives so much benefit of the doubt. What about her co defendant Raffaele Sollecito?

We really don't get as much of the story outside of the northwest.
 
16Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 13:59 		i read the article a few minutes ago and was stunned. i don't even think there was a question of guilt in looking at the evidence that was presented.

What about her falsely accusing Congolese pub owner Patrick Lumumba of the crime?

she apologized, admitted she was wrong, and blamed police pressure. Seeing how this trial has gone, there's no shock she felt heavy pressure.

We really don't get as much of the story outside of the northwest.

it's an INTERNATIONAL news story. google it. there is so much out there.

personally, i think for the italian jury, this was all about nationalistic pride, and not at all about guilt and innocence. The prosecutor in the case is an all-but-convicted criminal, and only in the Italian court system would a prosecutor under the investigations he is, would still be allowed to do his job.

I don't think it's any small coincidence that 75 percent of the jury wore the colors of the italian flag as the verdict was read.

a disgusting miscarriage of justice.
 
17bibA
      ID: 3510191216
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 14:15 		Oh I have googled it. There seems to be two sides to this story, which is usually the case in a trial. I tend to believe that a jury of normal people will have the best perspective, as they will have been given the best opportunity to weigh the evidence.

Are you suggesting that the judge jury and prosecutor all basically conspired to find these two guilty just because Knox is American? Is that why the family of the victim feels so strongly that she was guilty? Nothing to do with the evidence?

Not saying all of this is not in fact the case, just that at least to me, it's improbable.
 
18holt
      ID: 308491916
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 15:39 		Apparently their juries aren't sequestered, so public opinion can become a major part of a trial like this.

This case reminds me of the West Memphis 3 in some ways. One of the suspects owned a Japanese comic book that portrayed the killing of vampires, the victim dressed as a vampire for Halloween, and that's supposed to be evidence of guilt? Seriously? And it's well documented that interrogators can cause suspects to make false statements if they try hard enough.

If you don't think something like this can happen in the U.S., you are mistaken.
 
19Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 16:41 		Why?

If a foreigner commits a crime in the US, should they be sent to their home country to do the time?

Depends on the deal we have with that country. On our side of the fence, I want our people doing their punishment in this country.

Defendants who are found guilty in another country then should be brought to the U.S. to serve their time. Do you believe they should then serve the full sentence as determined in the country where they committed their crime? Do they appeal here or there? What about capital crimes? Are they to be executed in the manner prescribed there?

The United States should immediately outlaw the death penalty and abortion and urge the United Nations member states to do so as well.

That being said, if somebody is convicted of whatever it is, send them back to the United States and serve the equivalent penalty under American law in an American prison and if need be pull their passport or ban them from entering the other country ever again.

Talk about opening bags of worms! Talk about having to spend more money than we do presently!

Talk about spending the rest of your life in a Turkish prison! Other countries don't quite have the, ummmm, amenities we have in terms of rights and I really wouldn't want an American in some other countries prisons.

 
20Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 16:48 		Given your feelings about the high cost of incarceration, I wonder why you think we should literally be paying for another country's crime? We're probably talking about a few thousand dollars per criminal to bring them back here and process them, plus tens of thousands of dollars a year per person to keep them in prison for years.

And (please correct me if I'm wrong): Don't you feel that harsh sentences by themselves are a deterrent to crime? If so, aren't the harsh jails of Turkey a deterrent to an American going over there and committing a crime?
 
21Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 16:50 		Its two entirely different situations.

A crime is committed in this country and the citizen is protected by the rights of this country and serves their time.

A crime is committed by an American and a foreign country and they are subjected to God knows what and the playing field is entirely different. I don't like the idea of an American citizen spending time in a foreign prison away from their basic rights. Increase the sentence for all I care for American citizens who commit crimes overseas, but then bring them back here to serve time.
 
22Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 16:57 		If the playing field is different (which seems an entirely reasonable statement to make), then it seems to me that the sentence would sometimes be out of whack as well.

It seems to me that you are willing to give people who have been convicted of a crime a break, but only if they are American and are convicted of other people's laws.
 
23DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 17:11 		"A crime is committed by an American and a foreign country and they are subjected to God knows what and the playing field is entirely different. I don't like the idea of an American citizen spending time in a foreign prison away from their basic rights. Increase the sentence for all I care for American citizens who commit crimes overseas, but then bring them back here to serve time. "

I can only imagine your venomous outrage if even one other country in the world demanded the same of us as you do of them with this.
 
24Frick
      ID: 9103036
      Sat, Dec 05, 2009, 21:52 		Isn't the cause of Ayrton Senna's death still an open court case in Italy? I'm surprised they moved this fast on the case.
 
25bibA
      ID: 3510191216
      Thu, Dec 10, 2009, 13:09 		Box 21-
A crime is committed by an American and a foreign country and they are subjected to God knows what and the playing field is entirely different. I don't like the idea of an American citizen spending time in a foreign prison away from their basic rights. Increase the sentence for all I care for American citizens who commit crimes overseas, but then bring them back here to serve time.

I saw on todays news that Amanda Knox shares a cell with another American female. They have TV, a private shower, small kitchen, library at their disposal, education opportunities, and other amenities that I can't recall right now. So do those of you who feel that Americans should be brought back to the U.S. to serve their time believe that they should be forced to do so, or given the option? Sounds like they are treated better in Italy than they would be in most American facilities.
 
26sarge33rd
      ID: 411101013
      Thu, Dec 10, 2009, 14:00 		If you go to *insert name of any country here* and violate their laws; you are then subject to prosecution UNDER their laws. Thought that was pretty commonly known/understood.
 
27Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Thu, Dec 10, 2009, 14:58 		Not WHAT HAPPENS Sarge, SHOULD it happen.
 
28sarge33rd
      ID: 591141017
      Thu, Dec 10, 2009, 18:05 		Should? According to whom? You? roflmao Germany, enforces German law (as it should be). France, enforces French Law (as it should be), the USA, enforces US Law (as it should be).

Face it Baux, your entire argument (like your claim that US Citizens cant be terrorists), is premised on American elitism wherein you would hold Americans ABOVE the law of another country, just to soothe your ego.
 
29Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Thu, Dec 10, 2009, 22:26 		So when's citizenship should dictate which laws and punishment they are subject to? Ludicrous.
 
30Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Fri, Dec 11, 2009, 10:42 		"when's?" Terrible.

one's.
 
31walk
      ID: 291046510
      Fri, Dec 11, 2009, 11:36 		I dunno, Baux. Are you really saying that Americans should get American justice when they are arrested and tried and punished for crimes they commit outside of the U.S., but that the reverse does not apply? Are you saying that the American justice system is like the "global justice system" ... for Americans? And what Razor said in #29? I like being American then! (satire). We are not the world rulers (unfortunately).
 
32Wilmer McLean
      ID: 161161112
      Fri, Dec 11, 2009, 13:06 		Prisoner Transfer Treaties and other information
 
33Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Fri, Dec 11, 2009, 14:05 		Wilmer

That's a nice find and interesting read. I may even need to use some of that information some day... for a client, of course.
 
34Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Dec 11, 2009, 14:20 		Great find, Wilmer. I guess an American need not suffer in a Turkish prison, then.
 
35Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 07:35 		American lives are worth more than foreigners lives. Our politicians allegedly are supposed to act like that. Would you rather see 1,000 Americans die or 1,000 foreigners?

That being said, of course you throw the Americans in prison once they get back to the US. It seems like Sarge and Razor didn't read my postings. I expect that from Sarge given he's an illiterate bumpkin. I'm not too familiar with Razor, but I like to assume people can read when I engage them in conversation. I'll give Razor a mulligan, everyone has a whoops.

 
36Pancho Villa
      ID: 61138128
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 09:38 		American lives are worth more than foreigners lives.

So, American atheist lives are worth more than foreign Christians. Nidal Hasan's life is worth more than Nelson Mandela's.

Do you ever tire of exposing yourself as blabbering fool?
 
37Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 09:52 		In the land of liberals the one conservative is King.

It seems like this sentence, "American lives are worth more than foreigners lives." requires no further explanation in its definition yet you have questions. Let's assume you were educated in liberal public schools so I am going to grade on a curve with you and be merciful because its not your fault you weren't educated on proper sentence structure and how to respond to questions. I do not blame you.

Yet another reason why teachers unions must be broken up.
 
38sarge33rd
      ID: 551157128
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 09:57 		In the land of liberals the one conservative is King.

More accurately, the one is Emperor; and the Emperor has no clothes.

American lives are worth more than foreigners lives.

Seems like just about every time you post, I figure it's the dumbest thing I've seen yet. Congratulations, you somehow manage to get more and more and more asinine, with each passing day.

Humanity, is humanity; without regard to where that person was born. I'll agree with the notion "better them than us", but that isn't to diminish the "value" of "their" life. It's a purely selfish stance. Every person killed in an armed conflict, is someones brother, son, daughter, sister, Mother, Father, etc etc.
 
39bibA
      ID: 3510191216
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 09:59 		American lives are worth more than foreigners lives.

OK, that's how many may feel.

Philosophical questions on the subject.

Is one American life worth more than two foreign lives?

Is one American life worth more than 100 foreigners?

If an American (say his name is Box) moves to England for a job assignment, and remains there for 10 years, is his life still worth more than that of an Englishman?

Are you referring to all U.S. citizens, what about a Nigerian who immigrates to the U.S. and gains citizenship, is his life worth more than that of an Englishman?

What about a non-citizen soldier who is enlisted in the U.S. army? Is his life "worth" less that his fellow soldiers who happen to be "American"?

You avoided a previous question. If Amanda Knox exhausts her appeals and then is given the option as to where she serves her time, and chooses to remain in the Italian penal system, should she be forcibly brought to the U.S. to serves her time?

Americans having this position, that they are worth more than others, is one reason why so many from other countries have negative feelings towards us. Do you travel out of the country? When you do, do you hide this attitude of superiority?
 
40Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 10:13 		Well, B-man is clearly into troll land now.
 
41Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 10:18 		Every person killed in an armed conflict, is someones brother, son, daughter, sister, Mother, Father, etc etc.

But not an American.

Do tell Sarge, you were in the military right? Your job was to defend this country. I would hate to have people like you in the service if you really think American lives are of the same value as foreigners. Your job is to protect Americans and American interests.

Say the Soviets invaded Germany and you popped a cap into some Ruskie bastard. Well if all lives are worth the same why not just shoot randomly? Enough casualities would end the conflict so why just focus on the commies?

Is one American life worth more than 100 foreigners?

Biba, I like you. You don't come off as an a$$ so I'm happy to discuss anything you want.

I cannot quantify some kind of exchange rate on American lives versus foreigners. I do know this, if I had a gun and I HAD TO shoot either one of our fellow Americans or a foreigner, I would run out of foreigners in a hurry. I would save the "lowest" (please pardon the term) American ahead of any foreigner.

This isn't to say I don't like foreigners. Sure there's plenty of good ones out there but they aren't Americans.

You avoided a previous question. If Amanda Knox exhausts her appeals and then is given the option as to where she serves her time, and chooses to remain in the Italian penal system, should she be forcibly brought to the U.S. to serves her time?

No, bring her here. If she wanted to be in Italy so bad she shouldn't have allegedly killed somebody. Come to think of it, when she comes home we ought to tack on her sentence something along the lines of "Breaking laws in a foreign country". When my kid is at a friends house and misbehaves (doesn't happen because my kid is great) I react harsher than if there was a problem at home because my kid is also representing my family when outside the house and must respect the property of others.

Americans having this position, that they are worth more than others, is one reason why so many from other countries have negative feelings towards us. Do you travel out of the country? When you do, do you hide this attitude of superiority?

ALL Americans are certainly worth more than foreigners and better by virture of being an American. Let them have their negative feeeeeeelings and the next time the Nazis show up they will come crawling.

I hold Americans to a higher standard than others. The Bible says something along the lines of, "To whom much is given, much is expected." Americans have been given massive, unquantifiable blessings by God Allmighty and the flip side to that is setting a good example abroad to show people how to behave.
 
42sarge33rd
      ID: 551157128
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 10:43 		No Baux, my job was to do what I was told to do, provided the orders were legal. THAT, is the job of every serviceman. And if you mean you would "hate to have people like me..."; then you are saying that you would hate to have intelligent, thinking, capable people on the job? I would dispute your contention on that point.
 
43Pancho Villa
      ID: 61138128
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 10:47 		The Bible says

Since you established that being an American trumps being a Christian, we can now dispense with any notion that you're actually serious about your religious persuasions.
 
44sarge33rd
      ID: 551157128
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 10:50 		...is setting a good example abroad to show people how to behave.

Yeah. Cause the French, British, Chinese, Japanese would NEVER succeed in establishing their society if WE didn't show them how.

You sanctimonious fool you Baux.
 
45WiddleAvi
      ID: 895017
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 11:32 		Bauxman - Are there different levels of Americans ? For example better a liberal American dies than a conservative American ? Or better a Jewish American dies than a Christian American ?
 
46sarge33rd
      ID: 551157128
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 12:01 		Just a few "examples" where I would stringly disagree with Baux claim re American lives and foreign lives:

Einstein's life, no doubt worth more than (generically) yours or mine would ever be.

Louis Pasteur...same.

Churchill...same.

Joan of Arc...same.

Alfred Nobel...same.

etc etc etc
 
47Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 12:21 		And if you mean you would "hate to have people like me..."; then you are saying that you would hate to have intelligent, thinking, capable people on the job?

That wouldn't apply to you. You don't exhibit those traits.

Bauxman - Are there different levels of Americans ? For example better a liberal American dies than a conservative American ? Or better a Jewish American dies than a Christian American ?

Any American death is tragic. That's why I'm against abortion and the death penalty. Americans MUST value our own lives. The most blessed thing that can happen to a person is to be born as an American. You are then born into a country where anything is possible. Anything is possible if you are an American. Look at our President. Now I don't like the guy because of his politics, but look at his life. In his own words he was the "skinny kid with big ears and a funny name" and he passed out fliers. He is also black which is/was a hurdle in our society. If you saw Obama in high school could you EVER have imagined him becoming President? Now look at him. He has a lovely wife, two lovely daughters, he's a millionaire, and the most powerful man in the world. Again, I don't like his politics, but he is certainly an American success story. So are people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Michael Dell, and George W. Bush. Only in America...
 
48Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 12:31 		Einstein became an American citizen in 1940. Along with your little abortion comment this one also ranks as one of my "Jim Dirks Keepers".
 
49sarge33rd
      ID: 551157128
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 12:43 		So, Einsteins life only became "valuable", post 1940 but he was disposable until then?
 
50Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 12:44 		an American success story. So are people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Michael Dell, and George W. Bush. Only in America...

because, of course, people don't go rags-to-riches in other nations. Although your inclusion of GW Bush - as a child of privilege - is odd, unless you're referring to the fact a former alcoholic can use his family connections to claw is way to the highest office in the land.

If you saw Obama in high school could you EVER have imagined him becoming President? Now look at him. He has a lovely wife, two lovely daughters, he's a millionaire, and the most powerful man in the world. Again, I don't like his politics, but he is certainly an American success story.

I suppose Hugo Chavez falls into this category for you too. Born in America, in a mud hut and in abject poverty, the son of two school teachers, he became the leader of Venezuela and for some people, among the most feared man in the world.

 
51WiddleAvi
      ID: 895017
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 13:23 		You didn't answer my question Bauxman. If you are not an American your life is not valuable ? Is abortion ok in other countries ?
 
52Astade
      ID: 38542218
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 14:42 		So now God is an American?... Why do people keep feeding
the troll? This is toxic stuff. We should be ignoring and
isolating this crap, not allowing it room to breathe, imo.
 
53bibA
      ID: 3510191216
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 15:38 		Astade - Beg to differ. He reflects what many actually believe, so we should be exposed to it. I have many friends, relatives and neighbors who listen to Fox and actually believe in Rush, Sean, Sarah et al. Their minds are for the most part set and closed, but it is still a challenge to make attempts to reason with them.
 
54Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 16:12 		You didn't answer my question Bauxman.

These were the questions you asked.

Are there different levels of Americans ? For example better a liberal American dies than a conservative American ? Or better a Jewish American dies than a Christian American ?

I answered them all. Now do you people see what the liberal public schools are doing to us? This guy can't even read.

If you are not an American your life is not valuable ? Is abortion ok in other countries ?

It is valuable sure, just not as valuable. Of course abortion, murder, is not OK anywhere.
 
55sarge33rd
      ID: 551157128
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 16:24 		You ridicule teaching, then display an inability to read.

You. like Boldwin and a few others, state repeatedly that Abortion = Murder. Read the penal code, it does not. Murder, is illegal and abortion is not illegal. Therefore, they can not be the same. Your logic, is in dire need of a 5th grade public school teachers guidance it would seem.
 
56WiddleAvi
      ID: 895017
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 16:56 		Your answer to my question was 'Any American death is tragic.' A non American death is tragic as well but that doesn't stop you from saying that an American life is more important. So we agree that an American dying is tragic. Is a conservative dying more tragic than a liberal ? Not to put words in your mouth but you have said we would be better off without liberals
 
57Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 18:35 		Not to put words in your mouth but you have said we would be better off without liberals

Of course we would be better off without liberals, but I would hope there are other ways to convert the current ones and stop new ones being created besides violence.
 
58sarge33rd
      ID: 481132139
      Sun, Dec 13, 2009, 11:11 		and there you have it folks. The right, openly calling for the complete eradication of an entire ideology. The troubling part is, Baux isn't alone in his open desire.

A world full of automatons Baux, is that what you REALLY want?
 
59Doug
      ID: 351027518
      Mon, Dec 14, 2009, 20:07 		ditto 52
 
60Doug
      ID: 351027518
      Mon, Dec 14, 2009, 20:09 		re: 53, that's true, but just because someone disagrees or has a fundamentally different worldview or is difficult to reason with, that doesn't mean they're trolling. There's a difference.
 
61Doug
      ID: 351027518
      Mon, Dec 14, 2009, 21:24 		On a serious, non-inflammatory note... the question of valuing life is an interesting one.

What does it mean to say all human life is equal? Equally what? Important? To you personally? So, if you knew a child was in danger of dying somewhere in the world, you would respond in exactly the same way as if it was your own child (or parent)? Seriously? How many trips to Sudan have you taken in the past 10 years?

So, there's a difference in the value "to me" vs. some abstract philosophical notion of value. That's why my brother's life feels a lot more important to me than the dude who I see on the street corner on my walk to work. That importance "to me" is why I ask my brother about his day, keep track of what's happening in his life, and go to great lengths to help him out if he needs it... whereas I might on rare occasion buy a sandwich or something for the dude on the corner (in part just to make myself feel better), and that's about it. But if my brother kills that dude, I recognize that he should suffer the same penalty under the law as if that dude killed my brother, because just because my brother's life is more important "to me", doesn't mean his life actually has more "value" than someone else's in that legal and philosophical sense.

Yet, even then... I'd also admit that Einstein's life, or perhaps even my brother's, has a greater "value" to our society and our species as a whole... they are contributing to the betterment of all, via intellectual breakthroughs, via being a net contributor to our tax system, via the environment they create for the next generation to grow up in and the time they spend parenting, and so on. Dude on the corner just kinda sits there and is the beneficiary of the benevolence of strangers... and that's pretty much it as best I can tell. Is that difference important? How do you decide on what makes a life more or less value? Clearly opinions will differ, and perhaps that's why we have our legal system treat most lives as being fundamentally equal... with some fuzziness/debate surrounding the beginnings and the (more-or-less natural) ends of life.

You could say there are sort of "concentric circles" of concern and value... and I think they've expanded over the course of human history. From self, to family, to tribe/community, to perhaps a larger network of tribes/communities who recognized some mutual self-interest and eventually formed into nations. But even then, certain members of the tribe or nation would have had more/less rights depending on their class, age, or gender. As nations grew larger, race become a dividing factor as well. While our society no longer legally recognizes differences between race (well, for the most part) we certainly still experience varying degrees of racism, where one human individual values another human individual as less... although I'm not sure if it's because of an actual difference in genetic heritage vs. a perceived difference in culture and values... maybe both? Maybe there's such a thing as culturalism? Someone might like and value people who are black but "act white" (a loaded term which I'll trust people not to misinterpret), but not like or value people who are black and act "different". Similarly, one might value someone of the same race as different or lesser because of vast cultural differences... I think we see some of that on the way the left and right often portray one another. And class and culture are definitely distinct... there are working class Ds and working class Rs who on paper would seem to have a lot of common interest, but who instead spend a lot more time and energy villifying one another (see: "What's the Matter with Kansas?").

The "frontier" of these circles today include things like sexual orientation and species (we recognize varying levels of interspecial rights, depending on the species and type... pets > livestock > insects... the closer the animal is to humans, the more we demand that they too be treated "humanely"). We clearly denote a difference between sentient and non-sentient life... folks might protest over inhumane treatment of veal calves, driven by compassion for the animal itself... they're not protest the
"brutal harvesting of corn" out of ethical concern for the stalk or the kernel. Sure, they may be opposed to factory farming or genetically engineered foods or heavy pesticide use, etc... but those are for the effects these practices have on humans, either directly via the food quality, or via groundwater contamination, or economic concerns for family farms, or what have you... but not because "we're treating the corn poorly".

Those circles still exist in terms of the importance "to me" of the lives of my family, vs. my neighbors, vs. people 3 towns over, vs. the folks in New Orleans, vs. Canadians, vs. the people of Belize. Gotta admit, I don't spend much of my day worrying about how the people of Belize are doing. Yet on some level I realize all of these lives have value... but if given the choice between losing the life of a close friend vs. 1000 strangers in some far-off corner of the Earth you'll never visit or meet anyone from, who would truly when push comes to shove look their friend in the eye and say "Sorry, Steve, time to go"? The 1000 strangers seem so abstract, the close friend is so concrete... I think that's why we sometimes grow numb or lose the visceral feel of tragedies and genocides overseas. It's just hard for it to seem real, especially when we've never experienced genocide and have nothing in our own experience we can even really relate it to, let alone the fact that the individuals themselves essentially "don't exist" within our world... we've never met, and never will, regardless of whether they live or die.

I could go off on another tangent about rational understanding vs. emotion here... but this is already too long. :)
 
62Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, Dec 14, 2009, 21:55 		Nice read, Doug.
 
63sarge33rd
      ID: 591157152
      Tue, Dec 15, 2009, 03:58 		ditto SZ. GREAT post Doug.
 
64Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Tue, Dec 15, 2009, 07:17 		So in 200 words or less do you value an American life or your neighbors life more than a foreigners?
 
65Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Tue, Dec 15, 2009, 08:08 		So in 200 words or less do you value an American life or your neighbors life more than a foreigners?

The black and white world of Bauxman. There is no answer to that question. What if you have a son or daughter who marries a foreigner? What if you're an American who has family that are foreigners? What if your neighbor is a foreigner?

Attemting to equate value of life to political borders, religious affiliation or cultural standards reflects an inability to understand that the world is not a cul de sac.
 
66Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Tue, Dec 15, 2009, 09:25 		Why are you guys responding to this? Jeez, just ignore him and let him go away.
 
67biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Tue, Dec 15, 2009, 10:20 		My neighbor is a foreigner and I hate his guts. F'in snooty, selfish Brit.

Now I feel better.

Hey! I found a use for Box's nonsense posts!

Cathartic.
 
68walk
      ID: 291046510
      Tue, Dec 15, 2009, 13:11 		Yeah, I think he's just trying to get a rise out of folks..."I would take the lowest American over any foreigner." I don't believe this is anything other than an attempt to see how folks respond, and then enjoy the ride.
 
69Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Dec 15, 2009, 13:21 		So in 200 words or less do you value an American life or your neighbors life more than a foreigners?

My friend Alex lives in Miami, was born in Israel, but raised in France from about the age of 2 to 18.

He's an American citizen now.

One of my brothers was born in NYC, but lives in British Columbia, and is on his way to becoming a Canadian citizen.

Another brother was born in Miami, but lives in Israel, and will probably make aliyot and stay there forever, being a dual citizen.

A third brother was born in Virginia, and lives in Vermont. He ain't going anywhere.

And I've got a friend who is South African, and here on a student visa. Not sure if she wants to become a citizen or not, because, quite frankly, it's not important to me.

All of their lives are much more valuable to me, than yours.
 
70Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 15, 2009, 13:48 		If there is one thing that Jesus taught us, it is that America is Number One!
 
71Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Tue, Dec 15, 2009, 14:43 		Tree, please stop taking this guy seriously.
 
72Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Dec 15, 2009, 15:01 		Razor - i was hoping by my response, one would gather i didn't take him seriously. I was actually going to write a response that was 201 words, just so he could "disqualify" me, but i really didn't want to put in that much effort. :oD
 
73Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 21:40 		Kercher killer's sentence reduced on appeal

Here's to hoping Amanda Knox' sentence gets looked at and reduced significantly, if not totally.
 
74Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Tue, Mar 02, 2010, 11:03 		The Donald is upset with Italy over the Knox trial.

Trump: Italy, you're still fired until Amanda's free.

"I think I'm good at judging people. I study people, and I've become rich because I understand what people are about. And I watched the Amanda Knox case unfolding in news reports. And this is not a guilty person. There's no evidence that links her to this crime," he said. "Other than she said some stupid things after being tormented for hours and hours and hours. It's amazing a lot of people in Italy think she's guilty, but the evidence isn't there. Even the prisoners think she's innocent. They have a better instinct than you or I. But the prisoners couldn't believe when she came back to the jail. They thought they'd said goodbye to her, they'd never see her again. And the prisoners -- these hardened, tough people were crying she came back. Even they know she didn't do it. So it was just something that struck me I thought it was a horrible miscarriage of justice, and I spoke up."

The Italian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini maintains there's plenty of evidence and the jury agreed, convicting Knox and Rafaelle Sollecito for sexually abusing and stabbing Meredith Kercher to death and sentencing Knox to 26 years in prison.

But Trump says Mignini is the one who should be in jail. The prosecutor is appealing a recent conviction for abusing his power in a different case.

"I know exactly what this guy is all about," Trump said "He's a maniac, and I've watched this maniac who's being prosecuted for abuse and it wouldn't matter to him if she was innocent or guilty. He just wanted to bring in the scalp. He looks like a madman to me. He looks like an absolute maniac. A nut job in my opinion. And it's just my opinion. This is a free country and I'm allowed to say what I think."
 
75Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 14:10 		rubbing salt in the wound..

Amanda Knox's parents indicted for libel in Italy
 
76Seattle Zen in Forks
      ID: 195322714
      Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 15:32 		Amanda's appeal has begun.

The murder trial and retrial of Ms. Knox, a 24-year-old American from Seattle, has attracted international attention because of its lurid details and the differing portraits of the defendant, who has been alternately described as a hard-working college student caught up in an arcane foreign justice system and a pot-smoking criminal.
Defense lawyers have asked that the DNA evidence used to convict Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito be re-examined, and the findings by the independent experts were expected to be turned in this month. The appeal is “going great” Ms. Mellas said, “but when the DNA reports come in it will be even better.”
 
78Great One
      ID: 418501919
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 15:52 		Free at last.
 
79Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 16:00 		amen.
 
80Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 23:37

Amanda's tears of joy should never have had to be shed...
 
81boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 13:26 		Where is the out rage, a minority gets convicted and the pretty white girl and her local boy friend are acquitted? Just imagine if this had happened in Texas.
 
82Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 13:35 		By all accounts, she looks to have been, in fact, innocent.
 
83sarge33rd
      ID: 38947410
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 13:45 		yes boikin, we should all be pissed off that the innocent person here, was ultimately acquitted of the charges. How terrible, that we are not furious, that an innocent, although white girl, was not held accountable for the criminal acts of another,

Now, as to your 2nd pt re TX...damn good thing this WASNT under Perry's watch in TX, or Amanda would already be dead.
 
84Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 14:22 		.damn good thing this WASNT under Perry's watch in TX, or Amanda would already be dead.

Best post all month.
 
85beastiemiked
      ID: 67181118
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 14:23 		Claiming she is innocent is going to far. By all accounts there's a ton of questions surrounding her story the night of the murder. Her story of that night just reeks of someone that is hiding something. Some of her reasons for doing things are just plain ridiculous.
 
86bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 15:15 		All you guys who KNOW she is in fact innocent ought to let the Kercher family, who apparently still believe Amanda to be guilty, in on just who is responsible for the murder. Many would say they and Meredith Kercher were the victims in this case instead of Amanda.

I know for certain that I don't know who is actually guilty of the murder, and I don't think beastiemiked is saying he does, it just seems that so many seem to have all the knowledge necessary to proclaim Amanda innocent for sure. There was some evidence besides the DNA samples in this case, and who around here is willing to say for sure that the DNA evidence they did have wasn't actually from the suspects that the police and prosecution allege?
 
87Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 15:34 		I've been meaning to ask what the innocent version of that night was. I'm agnostic on this story until I hear a believable version where she and her boyfriend are innocent. What is the status of the boyfriend? Still in prison? Sorry I really haven't been reading every link on this one.
 
88biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 15:39 		They were both acquitted I believe.

Evidence was circumstantial. Prosecutor was an ahole. Who the heck knows if she was innocent, but they couldn't reasonably prove she was guilty.

Fly, be free.
 
89Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 15:44 		the prosecutor had no business being the one to try the Knox case, as he was under investigation for a myriad of charges related to abusing his position, charges he was eventually convicted of.

in fact, in the US, he wouldn't have been trying a case while facing indictment himself.
 
90Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 15:49 		If you care enuff to give me the Cliff's Notes version, what was the strongest thing that convinced the jury and what's the strongest argument for their innocence?
 
91Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 15:51 		I'm from Illinois. I totally understand there are prosecutors who don't belong in court. It doesn't make her innocent, necessarily.
 
92Great One
      ID: 574139
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 15:52 		The amount of DNA on the knife they tried to pin on them was minuscule and below accepted standards for DNA. The person who used the knife could have touched anything in the house that had Knox's DNA on it i.e. a door knob and that trace amount was transferred to the knife. So it has to be thrown out.
 
93Great One
      ID: 574139
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 15:57 		From what I understand, the (fraudulent) DNA was main connection and what they used to convict.

Then the Italian media tried to paint her as a criminal - i.e. photos of her out buying underwear the next day was supposed to be scandalous and she was unremorseful cause she was out shopping, but what they didn't mention was that the house was on lockdown and she didn't have any clothes.
 
94Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 16:05 		Very helpful. I buy that as far as those go.

 
95boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 16:05 		From all accounts being pushed in the American media she is not guilty. This was a big story in Europe, especially in the UK, way before it reached American and things are not always what they appear.

re 87: which one, she has told like 15 different accounts, I would say she did not kill the girl but she had a hand in it.
 
96Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 16:08 		No one even came close to proving she did it. She doesn't have to prove she's innocent. She doesn't have to act innocent, and she doesn't have to keep to a single story to remain, in fact, innocent.
 
97boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 16:10 		I find this story bonusly interesting because everyone is convinced she was innocent while most of the world was convince Casey Anthony was guilty, though both cases were based on circumstantial evidence. Oh how the media spins people.
 
98Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 16:12 		I get that the burden of proof in a capitol case is on the state and it has to be robust, but where does the passionate conviction she was totally innocent come from?
 
99boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 16:23 		I am going to assume that is from what the media has told them. Either you are guilty of murder or you are not guilty of murder, not you are guilty of murder or you just let the guy in to kill your roommate.
 
100beastiemiked
      ID: 67181118
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 17:05 		Very brief summary on the case. If you start researching further you'll see a bunch more holes in her story. Not only that but she pointed the finger at someone that was actually innoncent, Lumumba. Stay class Amanda.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8803077/Amanda-Knox-Guilty-or-innocent-five-reasons-why.html

 
101Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 17:43 		Reason #285 that being wrongly accused of murder really sucks: Even after you are exonerated, when an appellate panel rules not that the Prosecution did not act properly or didn't meet it's burden of proof, but that you were ACTUALLY innocent, there will still be millions of people who are only barely reading a story or two who will never believe you didn't kill someone.

The difference between Casey Anthony's case and hers is the difference between night and day. In Anthony's case, she was the only plausible suspect and no one will ever been convicted of that crime. We already know who killed Meredith Kercher, his name is Rudy Guede and he was convicted of this crime in 2007. The only place where Knox and boyfriend acted in concert with Guede was in the sick, twisted mind of the megalomaniac prosecutor.

There is a chasm a mile wide between proving a crime where one acted alone and proving that someone or multiple people were "also there" and acted in concert. Be very weary of charges of conspiracy without solid evidence.
 
102Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 17:45 		Hey beastiemike - Until you have been accused of murder and questioned for 11 straight hours in a language foreign to you, you don't have the faintest idea of what you would say.

Stay classy, indeed.
 
103beastiemiked
      ID: 67181118
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 17:55 		I will. Go ahead and stay blinded by the Amanda Knox press machine.
 
104Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 18:34 		The Knox grandparents live on the same street as me in my small town. Great people. See them regularly while we are walking dogs. I am glad this situation is over for them.
 
105Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 19:54 		Boldwin, this wasn't a capital case because Italy has no death penalty.
 
106sarge33rd
      ID: 38947410
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 20:19 		re 90...you seem to think it necessary to prove innocence. You have it bassackwards (as usual) The State must prove Guilt. Lacking such proof, innocence is assumed.
 
107bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 20:52 		jeez sarge, he was only asking for the strong points from both sides.
 
108sarge33rd
      ID: 38947410
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 22:03 		Point is bibA, there need not be ANYTHING from the defense. Nothing at all. If the State fails to meet it's burden, trial over...everyone go home. The state, is the only "side" with a burden of proof to be met.
 
109Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 08:25 		To be honest, none of us know what happened that night to Meredith Kercher. We don't know if Amanda Knox is guilty or innocent. There has been so much information and misinformation about this case its nearly impossible to weed thru it all.

We don't know who is truly to blame for Meredith Kercher's murder. But we do know who is to blame for the mess that this trial became - the prosecuting attorney. He botched this whole thing, plain and simple. If Amanda Knox is guilty, then the prosecutor did such a poor job of handling evidence, examining evidence and getting hard proof that he just let her walk free.

And if Amanda Knox is innocent, then that poor girl just 4years of her life because of an incompetent DA who can't properly prosecute a case based on its facts instead of on his image.

That prosecutor should be disbarred (or whatever the Italian equivalent is).
 
110weykool
      ID: 58814232
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 11:21 		Sarge:
For most of us we are savvy enough to recognize the difference between being found not guilty in a court of law and being actually not guilty.
OJ Simpson was found not guilty but he was guilty as sin.
Boldwin's questions are entirely valid.
As Khahan has pointed out it looks like we will be unlikely to draw a conclusion one way or another.
 
111Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 11:29 		When no conclusion can be drawn, we should be happy that a potentially innocent person was not thrown in jail to rot, which is a bigger worry than letting a potentially innocent person walk free.
 
112sarge33rd
      ID: 37922510
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 11:37 		We dont have to draw any conclusions WK. The Italian Court, found IN FACT that neither Knowx or her boyfriend committed the crime,. the ocurt did not merely fiond them "Not Guilty" as in unproven, but "Not Guilty" as in DID NOT DO THE CRIME., In point of fact, innocent.

link

The jury had two options to acquit: determining there wasn't enough evidence to uphold the conviction or that the pair simply didn't commit the crime. The jury determined the latter, clearing Knox and Sollecito completely.

Now, this should lay it to rest. Knox, is not only not guilty as in unproven...she is not guilty as in...I didnt commit the crime, and neither did she.
 
113Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 11:38 		As in Rudy Guede, who is in jail right now, did the crime.
 
114bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 11:59 		PD, you sure about that? Maybe Diya "Patrick" Lumumba committed the murder. Isn't that what Amanda maintained?
 
115beastiemiked
      ID: 67181118
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 12:42 		So one jury finds them guilty and the other jury that has less information presented to them finds them not guilty. Just because one happens after the other one doesn't make it the "truth". There's a ton of evidence against Knox and her bf. A lot of it circumstantial that could be dismissed if it was just 1 or 2 pieces but put the 20 or so pieces together and it's pretty damn hard to argue that they are "innocent".

Why was Amanda so concerned about the knife before it was even tested for DNA? She was concerned Raf might've planted her fingerprints on it before it was even tested.

What about the staged break in? I'm assuming most of free Amanda Knox people think it wasn't staged. However, look at the location of the window, the fact the shutter had to be open before it needed to be broke,how Rudy somehow climbed into the window and left zero DNA evidence in the room, how the room was ransacked yet nothing was taken, how glass was found on top of all the clothes that were ransacked. How is that explained?

What about the duvet over the body or the bra that was taken off after the murder? Why the hell would Rudy stick around to take her bra off and put a duvet over her after she had been dead for a few hours.

What about Raf's blood footprint on the bath mat?

Why was Meredith's door locked and the key gone? Do people really believe that Rudy decided to leave a crap in the toilet but decided he better lock Meredith's door and take the key?

What about all the crime scene experts that claim that the murder had to be done by more than 1 person?

I won't even go into the lies that Amanda and Raf told the police and how both their stories changed a few times.
 
116sarge33rd
      ID: 37922510
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 12:51 		A crooked prosecutor...nuff said.
 
117beastiemiked
      ID: 67181118
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 13:26 		I'm sure Meredith's family loves that excuse.
 
118weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 16:28 		Now, this should lay it to rest. Knox, is not only not guilty as in unproven...she is not guilty as in...I didnt commit the crime, and neither did she.
The jury verdict does nothing of the sort.
In their opinion there wasnt enogh evidence to convict her.
Or do you maintain that the police didnt beat Rodney King because a jury found the officers innocent?
Confusing a jury opinion with fact is an all too common mistake.
Like the time you stole that cookie and your mom knew you took it, but didnt catch you in the act or have enough evidence that you took it so she decided not to send you to your room.
It doesnt change the FACT that you took the cookie.
 
119sarge33rd
      ID: 37922510
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 16:36 		WK, the Italian Courts and American courts are not the same, the Italian court found; That Amanda Knox did not commit the crime.

The link in my 112, and the quoted portion of that article; are sufficiently clear. The Italian court had 2 possible findings as it pertained to "Not Guilty". (1) Not sufficient evidence to support the conviction or (2) That she did not commit the crime. The court found, that she did not commit the crime.

You, beastie and anyone else who cares to...is free to argue amongst yourselves all you want. The court findings are in, she did not commit the crime and tomorrow is still another day ending in 'y'.
 
120Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 17:50 		sarge - don't bother responding to weykool, he has never shown the ability to read an article on the internet and comprehend it. Of course he doesn't know the difference between the Italian judicial system and ours and no amount of explaining it to him will change his mind.

It's all black-n-white for weykool: Once you have been charged with a crime, you are guilty. Sure, some people may walk, but we all know you did it.
 
121sarge33rd
      ID: 37922510
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 18:46 		I am reminded by some, of an instructor of mine when I went thru MP Investigator School. He cautioned us, that almost all the guilty people will maintain their innocence; so dont believe it for one second.

I then raised my hand and asked a question "And what do the innocent people maintain?"
 
122bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 19:53 		er, the innocent people make up stories and accuse another innocent person of doing it?
 
123sarge33rd
      ID: 37922510
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 20:16 		You are/were in LE right bibA? Then y9ou know, the stress any individual is put under, during interrogation. The lies told to try and trick the subject into incriminating themselves. The time, dragging on and on and on and on. The fatigue, the duress. Now, imagine that in a foreign country,m a foreign language, and foreign customs. Then, ignore the fact that YOU are a trained professional and imagine yourself a scared sh*tless 20 yr old (or so) college student.

The court found her in FACT, not guilty of committing any crime.

I'm content with that. Had they found her guilty, I'd be satisfied with that too. THEY saw the evidence, and THEY must make the decision. And its done.
 
124Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 20:16
Sure, when faced with an agressive prosecutor seemingly intent on pinning this on one.
 
125bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 09:57 		link

It appears to me that the Italian court found that there was insufficient evidence to convict, not that they were unequivocally saying that the defendants were in fact innocent.

I certainly do not know whether they committed the crime, it's just that I find it curious that persons who normally are open minded are so adamant that Amanda Knox is in fact innocent. I sometimes wonder if her beauty has a lot to do with the strong opinions supporting her.
 
126bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 10:00 		From the above link: Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann said in a state TV interview that "maybe" the two defendants know what happened in the 2007 slaying of Meredith Kercher in the flat the two women shared in Perugia, the Umbrian town where they were student.
Hellmann, who was also one of the eight jurors, said "the real truth could be different." But based on trial evidence, the jury acquitted them, he said. In Italy, the presiding judge is part of the jury, along with another judge, and six civilians.
In his first public comments since Knox and her Italian co-defendant, Raffaele Sollecito, were acquitted Monday night, the judge stressed on state TV that the verdict was the fruit of the "the truth that was created in the trial."
"But the real truth could be different," Pratillo Hellmann added. "They could also be responsible, but the proof isn't there."
 
127beastiemiked
      ID: 67181118
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 10:44 		The facts of the case don't lie. Maybe she deserved to get off in the eyes of the law because of an overzealous prosecutor. I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. However, if you look at the facts objectively you'll begin to see just how many coincidences had to line up for her to be not involved. It's a astronomical number. Maybe she's the million to 1 that had all these crazy coincidences happen and still not be involved.
 
128Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 11:10 		A series of "unanswered questions" is not a "ton of evidence" beastie. We get it, you have read a bunch of salacious articles from the UK who are hell bent on continuing the lie that the proclamations of one prosecutor equals the truth. You ought to introduce yourself to Building 7 and Nerveclinic because I'm sure you would gobble up their WTC conspiracies, plenty of unanswered questions there.

To me, however, you sound an awful lot like the donkey who maintains that he was right to go all in on his one outer and nothing will change his mind.

I'm done with this thread.
 
129beastiemiked
      ID: 67181118
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 11:54 		Those unanswered questions are all forms of evidence. Individually they could be dismissed but together they point a pretty big finger directly at Amanda and Raf.

I'm not maintaining that I'm right. I've read a lot about the case and everything that wasn't on pro amanda website points to her being involved. This includes independent sources that have no pony in the race. If you can't be objective and argue the finer points of the evidence then I'm glad you are done with the thread.
 
130bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 12:43 		Nancy Grace has proclaimed that Amanda is guilty......which tells me that she is actually innocent.
 
131Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 13:01 		That would be my first inclination.
 
132sarge33rd
      ID: 52922613
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 14:22 		No beastie...unanswered questions most certainly are NOT evidence. Like SZ.....I'm done here.
 
133sarge33rd
      ID: 52922613
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 14:45 		one last comment, as for Nancy Grace...she has never met an accused, she wouldnt gleefully have executed.
 
134Tree
      ID: 321401618
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 19:42 		don't want to start another thread, but here's another American apparently being railroaded.

Since last summer, a former Peace Corps volunteer from Washington state has been wasting away in a Nicaraguan prison, wrongfully convicted of international drug trafficking, money laundering and organized crime, his supporters say.

lots of head-scratching stuff in there...