Forum: pol
Page 3313
Subject: France issues ban on birqa

  Posted by: Khahan - [391582715] Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 12:55
Sarkozy issues ban on the birqa in France.

[quote]
"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."
[/quote]

I'm curious what these boards think of issue from a few perspsectives. Is this a religious issue or a human rights issue as Sarkozy states.

Because of its link to the muslim religion I cannot see this kind of a ban flying in America, but how about its chances of successfully sticking and being enforced in France?

Governmental/religious issues aside do you personally think this is a good idea, bad idea or are you completely indifferent?
 
1Seattle Zen
      ID: 17592212
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 13:09 		Obviously, this could not happen here. Europe is different, they don't have the same "inalienable" rights we have. I'm curious about how France will go about enforcing this ban. It could blow up in their face, who knows.

I do agree that the burqa is reprehensible. I have represented a man who came to court with one of his wives next to him in a burqa. It is unsettling, like he has a dog collar around her neck. I had to clue him in that he cannot say "wives" here, we're only allowed one.
 
2Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 13:31 		I've been hearing about this. I think it is a terrible idea. The freedom of religion means that women have the freedom to wear clothing that others find to be offensive.

Otherwise, they trade a "repressive" religious system for a "repressive" paternalistic one.
 
3Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 13:55 		"Otherwise, they trade a "repressive" religious system for a "repressive" paternalistic one."


I had not really looked at it that way. However, doesn't motive play a part in this? I'm not going to claim any great knowledge of the Muslim religion (and if I'm wrong I hope somebody does kindly point out where I am wrong), but isn't the burqa which is a few thousand years old, a tradition with rather neferious roots when it comes to how women are viewed? Doesn't it originally have something to do with women being property and second class citizens?

If so, then, in my eyes, Zarkozy may not be far off in his assessment. And as long as his reasoning is true to what he said, I don't know that this is such a bad thing. However, if he's doing this simply as a shot at the Muslim religion or as a way to exercise power over Muslims (for whatever reason), then I think your point would apply.
 
4biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 14:11 		Hey, if a woman wants to be treated like submissive chattel, they deserve that right!

But if they don't, they deserve support and sanctuary to escape from that situation.

As weird, incomprehensible and disturbing as I find it, there are good ol' citizens of the USA who seem pretty content and happy to be submissive to another human. No burqa required.
 
5Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 14:16 		The Catholic Church not allowing women priests, bishops, etc., puts women in a position of subservience. If France's move makes sense, then forcing the Catholic Church in the US to allow women priests must also makes sense, right? I don't think that would go over too well.
 
6Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 14:19 		They'll get around that law in about two seconds. Their alleged birqa will be OK because it's a different color, size, has attachments, openings, slits, material, reasons for wearing it, can't afford new wardrobe, it's a "designer" birqa, etc.
 
7Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 14:40 		...then forcing the Catholic Church in the US to allow women priests must also makes sense, right?

No.
 
8Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 14:50 		The religious theory afaik is that it prevents potential sexual attractions and unwanted advances from developing and thus protects a woman from getting involved in rape/fornication/adultery [and requiring an honor killing by their law].

It may be true that in practice it has a different 'feel' more akin to your portrayal but that is subjective. I'm just telling you objectively what they would tell you.

BTW in the original Jewish law a Jewish woman who was raped and who did not cry out would have been stoned to death along with her attacker so in a muslim's mind their practice, that drives us the craziest about them, is similar tho not quite identical, again afaik. They may even have a 'loud outcry' provision protecting innocent rape victims but if so I haven't seen it described from any moslem country.

My heart says get rid of burkas, but my head says that there isn't a respectable winning argument against them among willing practicers of that faith.
 
9Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 15:40 		"The religious theory afaik is that it prevents potential sexual attractions and unwanted advances from developing and thus protects a woman from getting involved in rape/fornication/adultery [and requiring an honor killing by their law]."

If this is true, then the origins of the birqa are not quite as nefarious as I had thought.


My heart says get rid of burkas, but my head says that there isn't a respectable winning argument against them among willing practicers of that faith.

I think this is about where I stand on the issue. I guess there is just a bad stigma with them. Whether its deserved or not its there.

So that leads to the next question: What do birqas really mean today in the Muslim religion?
 
10Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 15:49 		Is that really the direction you want to go? They are obviously a religious symbol. This, of itself, should say "hands off."

Freedom means that people are free to make unpopular choices. Even choices not in their "best interests." Just because the French believe they know better than those who freely choose to wear them doesn't mean that they should be doing so.
 
11Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 15:52 		As a non-muslim I see a birqa as a religious symbol. That does not make it so to muslims. How do muslims view birqas or what is their purpose in today's world?
 
12nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 16:14

I completely agree with Baldwins points in post 8. While we
might disagree and not understand it, to simply dismiss it out of
hand as nothing more then a form of subservience is lacking in
a complete understanding of the culture.

I have a client whose wife wears the full burqa, (Only eyes
showing) I had to deal with her one on one once, her husband
was not there (She had an assistant in the room at the time of
course)

She explained to me it was her that was so conservative and her
husband had tried to get her to be more relaxed at business. For
example she explained to me that she had told him she only
wants to work with "muslim women". Then she realized this was
a problem because they weren't doing a good job but she had
painted herself into this corner because of conservatism. I have
no idea why she was telling me this at first meeting but she did.

So I found myself having a good conversation with a woman in
full burqa. Once I got over the initial shock it was nothing
unusual (practice having lived here 2.5 years.) You would think
they would be shy... nope, she went on and on, yak, yak, yak,
talk, talk, talk.

My point is to only label it a way to "make women subservient" is
missing a cultural subtlety. As Baldwin said, it's all related to
debasing sexuality, so a woman is so void of sexuality she is not
stared at, whistled at, looked at as prey as is so often the case in
western culture, let's face it, it's true.

Again I don't agree, but when put in the context of a
conservative culture, those reasons make more sense.

If any law is made, it should be that a woman cannot be made to
wear the burqa "against her will" and there should be provisions
in place to prevent it. How can you stop someone doing this
willingly for religous purposes, and yes I am convinced many do
it willingly.

In Iran there is a big conflict with women not covering their hair,
they want to look like women in the open face Burqas (open face
is allowed in Iran but the hair must be covered. Now I see an
issue, when a woman wants the freedom to dress as she please
and the state won't allow it... but that is exactly what Savorsky is
proposing in France.

As far as the open face burqas go, they are worn with pride,
fashion and flair by the local women here, and there is nothing
overtly modest about them. Trust me.





 
13C1-NRB
      ID: 2911103011
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 16:44 		Thanks for chiming in, nerve.
 
14Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 16:52 		What business does France passing judgement on a religion. It's obvious that Sarkozy does not have the faintest idea of the intent of a burqa, which has already been articulated in this thread. Do I think burqas should be done away with? Ya, but that's a call for those within the Islam faith to make, not some government. Certainly not the government of France. What's next? Banning prayer mats? Yarmulkes? Crosses?
 
15Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:12 		France all but had my religion banned for a couple years. They were calling them a cult [tho over 100 years old] and trying to tax them at a 60% rate and confiscate all our printing facilities in France for resultant back taxes. I'm not sure how that shook out. I assume we won out in the end. I didn't hear that the property was seized.

France has a much more hostile relation to religion than most Americans remember, forgetting just how anti-religious the French revolution actually was. [not withstanding that there have been quite a few government reformations in between then and now]
 
16sarge33rd
      ID: 45562217
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:13 		France is France, and not the U.S. Our laws, are not necessarily relevant to the French situation.

I do not think however, this will go over very well with the rather large Muslim population in Europe.
 
17Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:15 		I completely agree with Baldwins points in post 8 - Nerve

Let us not allow small miracles escape our notice.
 
18Seattle Zen
      ID: 17592212
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:29 		If the eyes are showing, it's not a full burqa.



That's the full monty!

so a woman is so void of sexuality she is not stared at, whistled at, looked at as prey as is so often the case in western culture, let's face it, it's true.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about? You've been gone too long and the heat has made your mind soft. Women do not get whistled at, stared at or looked at as "prey" often here. Give me a break. Women wearing shorts and a t-shirt anywhere other than Hooters don't make a single wave. WTF?
 
19Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:50 		I certainly don't have Nerve's experience but I do live in Brooklyn's 'Little Pakistan' neighborhood and see many women in burqas almost every day (my wife calls them ninjas). I get the strong impression that at least some of those women wear them because they prefer to. Maybe most.
 
20Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:50 		The perfect gag gift for your girlfriend, Nerve. ;>
 
21Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:52 		Give me a break. Women wearing shorts and a t-shirt anywhere other than Hooters don't make a single wave. WTF?

you haven't spent much time here in NYC then. my girlfriend gets cat calls when she's wearing a fairly conservative knee length dress.
 
22Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 19:06 		Women wearing shorts and a t-shirt anywhere other than Hooters don't make a single wave.

When we lived in the Puerto Rican section of Sunset Park, seemingly every male aged 12 to 80 made it their business to holler at every pretty girl who walked by their stoops, whether they knew them or not.

My wife, who was surely the only blonde woman many of my neighbors saw every day, was always hasseled. Occassionally when she was out without me, men would get up close as she walked by and whisper into her ear. She doesn't speak Spanish and never knew what they were said.

In black neighborhoods here men hiss and meow at women as they walk by.
 
23Building 7
      ID: 9329258
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 19:24 		Re: The picture in #18....The one on the right is hot.
 
24Seattle Zen
      ID: 17592212
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 19:50 		When we lived in the Puerto Rican section of Sunset Park...

Tiny pockets of America where cat calls are not rare hardly condemns the entirety of Western Culture. The whole country of Norway is awaiting its first catcall. To say it happens "often" in Western Culture is absurd and shows cultural misunderstanding held by the person who stated it that is as wrong as the standard Americans' notion that Islamic people hate Americans.
 
25Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 20:52 		The whole country of Norway is awaiting its first catcall.

that's a complete Baldwin.

from Bergen, Norway, comes Cat Call!
 
26Seattle Zen
      ID: 17592212
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 20:57 		from Bergen, Norway, comes Cat Call!

I stand corrected.
 
27Razor
      ID: 385371019
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 21:36 		To suggest that burqas purpose is to protect from catcalls, but to prevent a woman's sexuality from being on constant display. This is a culture where sexuality outside of the confines of marriage is considered sinful and the women do not hold hands with a man until their wedding day. These are the values of their culture and their religion and should not be subject to scrutiny from a secular government that purports to protect religious freedom. It's not as though a Muslim woman who does not wear a burqa on the streets of Paris would be stoned - a woman who wears a burqa on the streets of Paris does so because she wants to.
 
28Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 04:13 		They are not worried about mere catcalls. They are preventing immoral relationships...you know, that kind of thing the western media think are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I am on the otherhand a little concerned about the genetic repercussions of a couple thousand years of marrying literal pigs in pokes. That just can't be good for looks. Maybe they take a real sharp estimate of them when they are young and pre-burka and project that forward. I dunno.

 
29nerveclinic
      ID: 25582311
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 12:08
Baldwin post 28 LMFAO

You see you can be funny when you aren't completely off your rocker.

 
30nerveclinic
      ID: 395102311
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 12:10
To say it happens "often" in Western Culture is absurd and shows cultural misunderstanding held by the person who stated it that is as wrong as the standard Americans' notion that Islamic people hate Americans.

This is the fantasy you believe is reality when you live in the politically correct NW where men wouldn't dare look at a woman as an object of sexual desire.

Come to think of it, how did you get your wife prego?



 
31Seattle Zen
      ID: 495402311
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 12:41 		how did you get your wife prego?

Which one?
 
32biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 12:58 		There is more than one way?
 
33Seattle Zen
      ID: 495402311
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 13:15 		Boldwin re 28. Glad to see that Darwin has made an impression.

Nerve: I've lived in the following parts of the Great Satan: Minnesota, Northern and Southern California, Inner city Baltimore, South Carolina, Kansas City, and the Great State of Washington. Downtown Baltimore is 95% black. There certainly was a lot more street banter there than anywhere else I lived and even there I would not say that women were cat called or viewed as prey "often".

If you really believe the statement that Western men can't keep their tongue in their mouths when outside of their homes and women walk by, that most of them are eager to grab that ass in shorts that just walked by, well, you are nuts.
 
34Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 14:16 		Zen

Tiny pockets of America where cat calls are not rare hardly condemns the entirety of Western Culture.

and

If you really believe the statement that Western men can't keep their tongue in their mouths when outside of their homes and women walk by, that most of them are eager to grab that ass in shorts

Please go back and read what Nerve wrote. He didn't issue a blanket indictment of Western men or the entirety of Western Culture.

He simply said that women being stared at, whistled at, looked at as prey is something that happens often in Western culture. Nerve can correct me if his intent was as broad as you insist on taking him, but I didn't read it that way when I wrote post 22.
 
35nerveclinic
      ID: 495312315
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 16:31
most of them are eager to grab that ass in shorts that just walked by, well, you are nuts.

Where did I say most?

I've been called worse then nuts.

A "friend" on facebook, who I haven't seen in 20 years was reading one of my posts about some work I'm doing here in Dubai and he commented "and I used to think you were insane".

That was last week.

 
36nerveclinic
      ID: 435322315
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 16:32

Actually Zen, I thought you were being sarcastic. Now I'm wondering if you are nuts.

 
37Biliruben on iffyone
      ID: 52052916
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 17:40 		Must. Not. Oggle.

Sitting here on a sunny day at a cap hill coffee shop.

Q: If a woman has tats down to her nipples, does she mind if
you steal a glance?

I know I know, boldwin. Ghomorra.
 
38Seattle Zen
      ID: 495402311
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 17:43 		Where did I say most?

You said "often" and that implies most.
 
39Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 18:09 		Q: If a woman has tats down to her nipples, does she mind if you steal a glance?

steal a glance? i think she expects you to stare.

a friend of mine has a set of piercings (four of them), that start a few inches below her shoulder on her left breastbone, and gradually arch toward her cleavage until the fourth piercing is smack dab in the middle, right where her cleavage begins.

her breasts are already quite...noticeable, and she often wears clothes to show them off (and of course, she should!). This, however amplifies it all even more.

and she just posted a photo on facebook, from neck to cleavage, including the piercings, with the caption "The most popular part of me."
 
40biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 18:26 		steal a glance? i think she expects you to stare.

Aye. I was being facetious.
 
41Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jun 23, 2009, 21:47 		Doesn't happen, except in tiny pockets of America.
 
42Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 06:48 		What does the size of the pocket have to do with it?
 
43Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 07:33 		If you're asking me, see #24.
 
44Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 07:49 		Forget catcalls. Anyone of any extraction, anywhere in any modern western country faces extreme risks of falling victim to the prevailing immoral culture. They are not worried about mere oggling.

When I listen to the prevailing muslim attitude towards raping non-muslims, I am not inclined to say they are any paragons of virtue either but they have good reason to be protective wrt immorality.
 
45Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 08:27 		Phrase of the day:

...the prevailing muslim attitude towards raping non-muslims...
 
46Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 10:56 		Ask christians in Egypt, Pakistan etc. It is just amazing what you don't know. Namely just how common rape is used as a form of forced conversion.

What kind of a religion is that?

What CAIR, our self-centered media and our own refusal to believe the worst has kept us from knowing about Islam.
 
47Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 11:04 		key word there is "prevailing." A code word for "the person saying this is nuts."
 
48Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 11:45 		When the 'holy' book they revere tells them to go rape the infidels...their role model did it frequently...

I'm not nuts for pointing it out or that it is actually being done. Right now. In many parts of the world. In England. In France. All around the islamic world.
 
49Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 11:58 		i always find it ironic when folks who purport to be Christians find fault with other religions in regards to forced conversion while not acknowleding their own, as Christianity has a long history of forced conversion, literally ranging for centuries, and in particular targeting Jews and Muslims.

i also find it laughable that the same Christians who might take their own bible literally, find fault when other religions do the same to their own bible.

the fact of the matter is that something that was written so many centuries ago, should not be taken literally. And those that do, quite frankly, are nuts,

now, granted, i'm sure Baldwin finds forced conversion perfectly acceptable if they are being converted to HIS god, but that's another story.
 
50Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 12:06 		Yes--the news of marauding Muslims raping across England have apparently been covered up by the MSM.

Show me, Baldwin, the proof Muslims have a prevailing attitude toward raping non-muslims. I'm sure a few minutes of Google time will offer up some polling. After all, in Western countries Muslims are often polled, yes?
 
51Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 12:07 		And you really don't want to be pointing to their holy book as though every attitude is right from the pages. Which part of the Bible did you ignore today?
 
52Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 12:09 		now, granted, i'm sure Baldwin finds forced conversion perfectly acceptable if they are being converted to HIS god, but that's another story - Tree

It's baseless slander like that by which you prove what an unconscionable troll you are.

Neither Jesus, the Bible, or Christianity are responsible for the attrocities you cite.

What some secret society of knights templar, Jesuits, etc. etc. get up to...finds no basis in the Bible.
 
53Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 12:14 		Your gal Ann Coulter seems to disagree. Are you going to (finally) disagree with Ann Coulter in a public forum?
 
54sarge33rd
      ID: 415362511
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 12:36 		now, granted, i'm sure Baldwin finds forced conversion perfectly acceptable if they are being converted to HIS god, but that's another story - Tree

It's baseless slander like that by which you prove what an unconscionable troll you are.

Neither Jesus, the Bible, or Christianity are responsible for the attrocities you cite.


As opposed to what? Your baseless slander when you accuse me of celebrating the deaths of fellow soldiers?

Odd Boldy, how it seems OK by you for you to "do it", but let someone else take a page from your playbook; and they suddenly become "an unconscionable troll".

When was the last time, you took a really honest look into the mirror?
 
55biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 12:36 		My money is on equivocation.
 
56Pancho Villa
      ID: 205392511
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 12:39 		our self-centered media

Are you describing those media sites you link to in the same sentence, like jihadwatch.com and WorldNetDaily, two of the most self-centered agenda driven media sites in the world? And then there's www.Christianpersecution.info, which I'm sure is entirely objective and not self-centered.

But let's bypass the media and go right to our own resident Middle East resident for a comment.

Hey Monty,
How come you never brought up the prevailing muslim attitude towards raping non-muslims in Dubai? I can see how that would negatively affect tourism, so that must be the reason. Either that or it's just not true.

 
57Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 13:13 		I sure hope Nerve takes measures to protect himself from the the prevailing muslim attitude towards raping non-muslims.
 
58Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 13:13 		Clearly, nerve is too busy with the rape parties to give an answer right now.
 
59C1-NRB
      ID: 2911103011
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 14:15 		I'm thinking there's probably a filter that keeps threads like this one that hit a "King's X Bingo" on Islam's scorecard from making it through the Muslim world's firewalls.

Check your cards! Keywords: rape parties, burqa, Muslim (free space), pigs, full monty, immorality, facebook, breasts, Ann Coulter.
 
60nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 15:40
Dubai is comparable to the rest of the Middle East in the same way San Francisco is comparable to the Amish areas of Pennsylvania.

How could I possibly be considered this forums resident expert on the Middle east.

 
61Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 15:47 		Neither Jesus, the Bible, or Christianity are responsible for the attrocities you cite.

no? well it sure was used as a reason for forced conversion. we have the benefit of centuries of hindsight to look back and call those things atrocities, but your words here indicate strongly that you would have been a part of it back then.

the way you persecute muslims on this board, i hardly see you standing up for their rights and freedoms when the crusades and inquisitions and so on were going on.

you are making broad, sweeping statements about a religion, based on what you read on some whacked out wingnut sites.

so, here's another chance to prove me wrong.

Baldwin, yes or no, would you have defended the muslims when they were persecuted and repressed during the Spanish Inquisition?
 
62sarge33rd
      ID: 115282515
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 16:29 		Of course he would Tree. Same way, he defends the rights of gays today. What was it he said? Oh yeah, something like, "They get what they are entitled to" IIRC
 
63C1-NRB
      ID: 2911103011
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 16:30 		...would you have defended the muslims when they were persecuted and repressed during the Spanish Inquisition?

I certainly didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.
 
64boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 16:45 		Baldwin, yes or no, would you have defended the muslims when they were persecuted and repressed during the Spanish Inquisition?

Ill answer for him and most everyone here, NO.
 
65biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 17:12 		Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition.
 
66Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 18:10 		Surprise and fear, those are our weapons...
 
67Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 18:54 		I would have been the first guy the spanish inquisition tortured and killed.
 
68Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 19:16 		Jews were the first real targets of the inquisition, despite the nominal jurisdiction of the inquiry over baptized Catholics only.

Read a *great* book on the inquisition a couple of years ago. A fascinating time in history. The Catholic Church in Spain, upset over what they considered the heretical nature of Iberian area, in which Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived peacefully with each other after the reconquest (from the Muslims) of the area into the 1400s.
 
69Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 19:30 		Alright alright, assuming they could have come up with enuff evidence to convict Tree, I would have been the second person tortured and killed by the spanish inquisition.
 
70Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 19:33 		No--you'd be the first. When you couldn't respond in Spanish, they would have moved you to the top of the list, oh speaker of tongues...
 
71Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 19:48 		Well let me know when you make up your mind.
 
72Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 19:52 		One thing we know for sure...PD would have been leading the cheers at the gallows...zeitgeist...PD. Open and shut case.
 
73Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jun 25, 2009, 20:05 		#70 was clearly a joke. Or, when you are referencing Ann Coulter, "satire."