Forum: pol
Page 3347
Subject: Death Panels and Rationing


  Posted by: Boldwin - [37522413] Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 16:35

Economist Martin Feldstein, appointee to Obama's 'President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board' spills the beans in the WSJ 8/18/09.
Economist Martin Feldstein is probably coming as close as an Obama advisor can to letting the country know that a death panel may be on its way. Feldstein was appointed by President Obama to the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board.

In Wednesday's WSJ, Feldstein writes:
The White House Council of Economic Advisers issued a report in June explaining the Obama administration's goal of reducing projected health spending by 30% over the next two decades. That reduction would be achieved by eliminating "high cost, low-value treatments," by "implementing a set of performance measures that all providers would adopt," and by "directly targeting individual providers . . . (and other) high-end outliers."
Got that, "eliminate high cost, low value treatments"? Do you think that means a 20 year old youth with a broken leg who has many tax paying years ahead of him, or Grandma, where it is decided that it just isn't worth the cost to keep her alive through one more Christmas?

So how exactly will "they" decide what is "high cost, low value"?

Feldstein spills the beans on this also:
The president has emphasized the importance of limiting services to "health care that works." To identify such care, he provided more than $1 billion in the fiscal stimulus package to jump-start Comparative Effectiveness Research (CER) and to finance a federal CER advisory council to implement that idea. That could morph over time into a cost-control mechanism of the sort proposed by former Sen. Tom Daschle, Mr. Obama's original choice for White House health czar. Comparative effectiveness could become the vehicle for deciding whether each method of treatment provides enough of an improvement in health care to justify its cost.
Got that? That's a medical decider treatment panel, a death panel, if you will. This is exactly what nut job Peter Singer is advocating. It's all about QALY. It's about Singer designing equations to determine who lives and who dies. This is exactly what he wrote in New York Times Magazine, just weeks ago:
As a first take, we might say that the good achieved by health care is the number of lives saved. But that is too crude. The death of a teenager is a greater tragedy than the death of an 85-year-old, and this should be reflected in our priorities. We can accommodate that difference by calculating the number of life-years saved, rather than simply the number of lives saved. If a teenager can be expected to live another 70 years, saving her life counts as a gain of 70 life-years, whereas if a person of 85 can be expected to live another 5 years,then saving the 85-year-old will count as a gain of only 5 life-years. That suggests that saving one teenager is equivalent to saving 14 85-year-olds.
After they kill off Grandmas, they are going after the quadriplegics. Here's Singer again:
How can we compare saving a person’s life with, say, making it possible for someone who was confined to bed to return to an active life? We can elicit people’s values on that too. One common method is to describe medical conditions to people — let’s say being a quadriplegic — and tell them that they can choose between 10 years in that condition or some smaller number of years without it. If most would prefer, say, 10 years as a quadriplegic to 4 years of nondisabled life, but would choose 6 years of nondisabled life over 10 with quadriplegia, but have difficulty deciding between 5 years of nondisabled life or 10 years with quadriplegia, then they are, in effect, assessing life with quadriplegia as half as good as nondisabled life. (These are hypothetical figures, chosen to keep the math simple, and not based on any actual surveys.) If that judgment represents a rough average across the population, we might conclude that restoring to nondisabled life two people who would otherwise be quadriplegics is equivalent in value to saving the life of one person, provided the life expectancies of all involved are similar.

This is the basis of the quality-adjusted life-year, or QALY, a unit designed to enable us to compare the benefits achieved by different forms of health care...If a reformed U.S. health care system explicitly accepted rationing, as I have argued it should, QALYs could play a similar role in the U.S
So what are the chances of this type rationing that Singer is calling for actually occurring? Here's Obama advisor Feldstein, again:
Although administration officials are eager to deny it, rationing health care is central to President Barack Obama's health plan. The Obama strategy is to reduce health costs by rationing the services that we and future generations of patients will receive.
 
1Boldwin
      ID: 37522413
      Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 17:10
It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance.
—President Barack Obama in a New York Times interview on how costly medical decisions should be made.


The people behind the long table do not know what they've become. The drug of power has been sugared over in their mouths with a flavoring of righteousness. Someone has to make these decisions, they tell their friends at dinner parties. It's all very difficult for us. But you can see it in their eyes: It isn't really difficult at all. It feels good to them to be the ones who decide.

"Well, we have your doctor's recommendation," says the chairwoman in a friendly tone. She peers over the top of her glasses as she pages through your file.

You have to clear your throat before you can answer. "He says the operation is my only chance."

"But not really very much of a chance, is it?" she says sympathetically. Over time, she's become expert at sounding sympathetic.

"Seventy percent!" you object.

View Full Image

Martin Kozlowski
"Seventy percent chance of survival for five years—five years at the outside—and even that only amounts to about 18 months in QALYs: quality-adjusted life years."

"But without this procedure, I'll be dead before Christmas."

You try to keep the anger out of your voice. The last thing you want to do is offend them. But the politicians promised you—they promised everyone—there would never be panels like this. They made fun of anyone who said there would. "What do they think we're going to do? Pull the plug on grandma?" they chuckled. The media ran news stories calling all rumors of such things "false" or "misleading." But of course by then the media had become apologists for the state rather than watchdogs for the people.

In fact, the logic of this moment was inevitable. Once government got its fingers on the health-care system, it was only a matter of time before it took it over completely. Now there's one limited pool of dollars while the costs are endless.

"You have the luxury of thinking only of yourself, but we have to think about everyone," says the professor of ethics. He's a celebrity and waxes eloquent every Tuesday and Thursday on Bill Maher Tonight. "This isn't the free market, after all. We can't just leave fairness to chance. We have to use reason. Is it better for society as a whole that we allocate limited resources for your operation when we might use the same dollars to bring many more high quality years to someone, say, younger?"

"I'm only 62."

He smiles politely.

"Look, it's not just about me," you argue desperately. "My daughter's engaged to get married next year. She'll be heartbroken if I'm not there for it."

"Maybe you should have thought of that before you put on so much weight," says the medical officer. "I mean, you people have been told time and again . . ."

But the chairwoman is uncomfortable with his censorious tone and cuts him off, saying more gently, "Perhaps your daughter could move the wedding up a little."

The member in charge of "stakeholder" exceptions shakes her head sadly as she studies your file. "If only you could have checked off one of the boxes. It would be awful if you were penalized just because of a clerical oversight."

It begins to occur to you that this is how you are going to die: by the fiat of fatuous ideologues—that is to say, by the considered judgment of a government committee. They are going to snuff you out and never lose a minute's sleep over it, because it's only fair, after all.

That logic is implacable too. Free people can treat each other justly, but they can't make life fair. To get rid of the unfairness among individuals, you have to exercise power over them. The more fairness you want, the more power you need. Thus, all dreams of fairness become dreams of tyranny in the end.

You know you should keep your mouth shut. Be humble—they like that. But you speak before you can stop yourself.

"What you're doing here is evil," you cry out. "You're trying to take the place of God!"

"Sir, this is a government building!" says the chairwoman, shocked. "There's no God here."

- WSJ, Andrew Klavan, contributing editor to City Journal. His latest novel is "Empire of Lies" (Harcourt, 2008).
 
2DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 17:16
To most people it's perfectly plain
That what they mean in the main
Is not what you think.
Have you been into the drink
Or are you merely insane?
 
3Seattle Zen
      ID: 377312416
      Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 17:31
Will not read this thread, hope it ends up in the ether soon.

The FLDS story is getting farther and farther in your rear-view mirror, Baldy.
 
4Boldwin
      ID: 37522413
      Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 18:02
I check for the latest stories on that weekly, SZ.
 
5Boldwin
      ID: 37522413
      Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 18:04
Oh, and shield yer eyes from the actual words of the actual people writing the bill you think you understand.
 
6Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 18:21
well, thank god we'd got Baldwin to explain things to us, because lord knows that he's the King of Clarity.
 
7sarge33rd
      ID: 87112421
      Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 22:16
Boldy,,,,,where was your post #1 above, when the Republicans passed the Medi-Care reform in 2005, which contains predominantly THE SAME LANGUAGE re "end of life" counseling etc?

Why, was the idea entirely palatable then, proposed by Republicans and passed by Republicans, yet now it seems to draw out threatened scenarios from Logans Run?
 
8Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Tue, Aug 25, 2009, 17:52
Two things come to mind, Sarge, just off the top of my head for starters.

1) As far as I know no one from the Hastings Center or the Hemlock society was writing the plan. Unlike this go around.

2) I was there screaming when Terri Schiavo was murdered under two Bush adminstrations, state and federal. So don't pretend I was soft on them.
 
9sarge33rd
      ID: 577152519
      Tue, Aug 25, 2009, 20:17
Boldwin...the verbiage is virtually the same. The 'author' matters not a whit; when the verbiage is materially unchanged.

So again; where were your "death panel" screams under the medi-care reform? And if they didn;t apply then, it would logically follow that they don't apply now.
 
10Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Aug 25, 2009, 21:13
You're right, sarge. The wording is the same because the intent is the same. The only difference is that the wacky Right simply doesn't believe that anything proposed by Democrats isn't sinister.

"In reply, they lie." The new GOP strategy that people like Bachmann, Palin, and (yes) Baldwin parrot.
 
11Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Tue, Aug 25, 2009, 21:25
I didn't like anything about Bush's spending. I hated that bill. That compassionate conservatism was the assination of the Reagan Revolution. That said the language was not brought to my attention. The closest whiff I caught of it was that Bush was in league with my euthanasia enemies while he was in Texas and his brother was left handed deliberately bungling help to the pro-life forces in the SChiavo affair.
 
12Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 06:37
To cut costs doctors will actually be penalized if a visit to them results in a subsequent visit to them.

It remains to be seen what creative ways they can come up with to discourage this.
 
13sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 11:19
Some food for thought perhaps:

I'm sure this Church group i fully in favor of your "death panels":

United Methodist Church

and here, a panel convened in 2002, potentially spurring somewhat the soon to follow medi-care reform:

A Call for Reform of Medicare End-of-Life Policies

Disparities
John Wennberg, M.D., director of the Center for the Evaluative Clinical Sciences at the Dartmouth Medical School and a national expert in health care usage and spending patterns, presented evidence to illustrate that when it comes to Medicare spending on end-of-life care, more is not necessarily better. There is tremendous regional variation and general overuse of services for patients in the last year of life-hospitalizations, stays in intensive care units and physician visits-with no measurable effect on patient outcomes.

For example, he showed that between 1995 and 1996, in Miami, Florida, and in the borough of Manhattan, in New York City, more than 30 percent of Medicare patients saw 10 or more physicians during their last six months of life, while in Missoula, Montana, in Iowa City, Iowa, and in Portland, Oregon, the rate was lower than 7 percent. In the same year, in Miami, nearly 50 percent of Medicare enrollees in their last six months of life spent time in intensive care units (ICUs), while in Minneapolis, Missoula and Portland, the rate was lower than 23 percent. In any event, Wennberg said, the number of ICU visits had no impact on life expectancy. "On an age/sex/race and illness-adjusted basis," he said, "total spending would be reduced by 33 percent in the Medicare program if the benchmarks for the efficient areas (e.g., Minneapolis, Missoula and Portland) were the national norm."
{emphasis added}

"Death panel", or fiscal responsibility?
 
14Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 11:28
Are you under the impression I am more likely to approve of something because some church is connected to it? Anyone here is?
 
15sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 11:31
Are you under the impression I care if you approve or not?

I'm simply trying to point out to you, the absurdity of your claim. I know, that is an exercise in frustration. What can I say? I abhor ignorance.
 
16Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 11:40
It's always amazing how much progress the forces of death culture have already made under the radar...
such "death" boards already are operating in Oregon, where officials with the state Health Plan agreed to refuse a patient life-extending cancer drugs, but volunteered to pay for her to commit suicide.

He reported Barbara Wagner of Springfield, Ore., was diagnosed with lung cancer in 2005. Chemotherapy and radiation put her cancer into remission. But the cancer returned in May 2008.

Wagner's doctor prescribed Tarceva, a pill which slows cancer growth. There was a good chance it might extend her life by a few weeks or even months.

At age 64, Wagner had two sons, three daughters, 15 grandchildren and seven great-grandchildren. Every moment she could spend with her loved ones was precious.

But Oregon's health commissars nixed the plan. Her Tarceva treatment would cost $4,000 per month. Wagner was going to die anyway, so why waste the money?

Wagner received a letter stating that the Oregon Health Plan would not approve any treatment for her "that is meant to prolong life, or change the course of the disease …" However, if Wagner opted for physician-assisted suicide, Oregon would be happy to pick up the tab, said the letter.
Thank you Oregon death panel for offering a $50 death instead of healthcare.

 
17DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 11:57
If her pills cost $3 million each, would you think the state of Oregon should pay for them?

If they prolonged life by 5 minutes each at a cost of $10 million per pill, should the state of Oregon pay for them?

I assume your answer to either of these questions is no.

Which brings to mind the old joke... wherein a man walks up to a woman in a bar and asks "Would you sleep with me for ten million dollars?" She says yes. "Okay, would you sleep with me for ten bucks?" She looks appalled and says "What kind of a woman do you think I am?" He replies "We already established that, now we're just haggling about the price."
 
18Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 12:20
DWetzel

They've been screaming for Medicare reform for decades, demanding that we take a responsible look at the ever growing costs and pining for someone who would be willing to make the hard decisions to step forward.

All that goes out the window when after years of Republicans ignoring the problem, the guy who finally decides to something about is a Democrat. Then exactly the medicine they've been demanding all this time is suddenly an atrocity - by their own admission deemed so specifically because of who is proposing it.

These people are not serious. Their blind obstructionist rage has disqualified them from the discussion and I believe they prefer it that way because it enables them to pose as victims.
 
19DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 12:32
Well, yeah, obviously.

I'm just looking forward to Boldwin writing a huge check to the state and/or federal government to pay for these pills everywhere, since he has suddenly jumped aboard the socialized medicine bandwagon.
 
20Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 12:36
There are so many unrealities at work in a liberal's mind.

The idea that making healthcare 'free' from the POV of the consumer could ever be affordable.

The idea that the government could do anything more efficiently than the private sector.

The idea that the DMV could ever be trusted with life and death decisions involving compassion.

The idea that the Hemlock Society should write our healthcare plan.

Not even a clue what you are doing to yourselves. Not even the slightest worry. Really when the death panel denies your perfectly reasonable request for treatment, you are all gonna fold your hands and be grateful to die for your principles?

Frickin' Eloi.
 
21DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 12:38
You ignored my question, as usual.

What's the appropriate cost for those pills, and if the state can't afford them, what should be done about it?

I assume you'd be perfectly fine with this if they hadn't mentioned the assisted suicide option and merely said "no, we aren't going to bother to prolong your life?"
 
22Pancho Villa
      ID: 577192510
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 12:41
If the state of Oregon would have provided the $4,000 dollars for the lady with cancer, Baldwin and his friends would have been screaming bloody murder about the cost to taxpayers and nanny state interventionism.

Then they use the tactic they claim is reserved for liberals - overt emotionalism.

Every moment she could spend with her loved ones was precious.

If that time was so precious, why weren't the two sons, three daughters, 15 grandchildren

willing to chip in the couple hundred bucks a piece to pay for the Tarceva treatment?


 
23Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 12:42
Heh. Don't bother, DW. Baldwin is passionately against whatever the Democrats propose. Even if makes him look silly by having to re-cast reality to fit his political needs.

The belief that rationing isn't going on right now seems to slip right by him (or tossed aside as politically embarrassing and therefore a weakness to be discarded).

The quicker the Administration decides to jettison the dead weight from this debate the better.
 
24Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 12:45
Really when the death panel denies your perfectly reasonable request for treatment, you are all gonna fold your hands and be grateful to die for your principles?

at this point, anyone using the phrase "death panel" is clearly identified as someone so far removed from reality, that even having a discussion about something benign as the color of the sky is going to take on a surreal and asinine aspect.

it's just not real Baldwin. i realize i'm talking to a 50-something year old man who has disappeared for days on end to play World of Warcraft and who spends more time in fiction and fantasy the reality, but still, you really need to get a clue on the real world.
 
25biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 12:46
 
26Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 12:52
I understand we can't afford to put out more than the SS system takes in. If that money she had been paying had been invested properly all the time she was paying in, She could afford to be laying in a solid gold hospital bed now.

Instead you were listening in rapturous approval to Algore talking about lockboxes while he and his fellow congressmen made off with her money spending it buying votes.
 
27biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 12:57
You are not of this world. Invested properly? Have you looked at the stock market in, oh, the last decade?
 
28Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:00
You're forgetting, bili, that for some evangelicals being "not of this world" is a feature, not a bug.
 
29biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:00
I chose the phrase specifically for Baldwin.
 
30Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:29
bili, I of course expected that lame response.

Even with the crash, invest granny with regular index fund purchases over her lifetime at the rate her SS was withdrawn and she owns all she surveys.
 
31biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:31
Baldwin - as you know from your bubble surfing activities over the last few years (how did that turn out, btw? Liberals screwed you over, I bet.), the thing about investing is, yes, you can sometimes make some good returns. But those good returns are generally in exchange for taking excess risks.

However, your healthcare dollars should probably not be invested in high risk investments, because you don't know when you will need it, and you want it to be there when you do.

So your "letting people invest their own healthcare dollars Meme", essentially dooms a significant percentage, either temporally or the bottom-end of the investment-returns scale, to do without and just go take a pill and die. Rationing based on chance or poor investing.
 
32Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:32
Since when is an index fund high risk?
 
33Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:33
I can show you my 401k if you like.
 
34Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:35
And in the impossible chance that you could prove that, then diversify these accounts even further to include bonds, etc. Don't tell me investment advisors can't design a safe no risk portfolio that will outperform bank CD's over the life of the plan.

The only thing they can't handle is when congress wants to dip into it.
 
35Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:37
If your 401K was started when you started work, and it was in index funds, your healthcare and retirement would be guaranteed.
 
36DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:39
You gonna answer my question or are you going to change the subject again?

It's a simple question.

And I'm not going to stop just because your idea of debate is to change the subject every time you are challenged.
 
37biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:44
Take me for example. So I get out of school in 2001, get a job and, instead of contributing to SS and medicare, I pour it all into an index fund, say IXIC:



I develop congestive heart failure and need a new heart.

My investment has been hemorrhaging money for a decade, and I have enough saved up for a few bandages and some morphine, but the transplant docs look at my portfolio, giggle, and tell me to go take a pill and die.

Your answer is despicable.
 
38Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:48
Most supporters of privatizing Social Security have had the decency to stay quiet during the stock market collapse.

 
39DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:49
Oh, come on, we're not going to let a decade of facts get in the way of hysterical hyperbole, are we?
 
40biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:52
Don't tell me investment advisors can't design a safe no risk portfolio that will outperform bank CD's over the life of the plan.

Okay, but if you find that portfolio, let me know. Have you seen what happened to most bond funds over the last couple years? Decimated.

There is no such thing as "no risk". No wonder you think the market will solve all our problems. You don't understand markets. Even a little bit.
 
41boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:57
Take me for example. So I get out of school in 2001, get a job and, instead of contributing to SS and medicare, I pour it all into an index fund, say IXIC:

I develop congestive heart failure and need a new heart.

My investment has been hemorrhaging money for a decade, and I have enough saved up for a few bandages and some morphine, but the transplant docs look at my portfolio, giggle, and tell me to go take a pill and die.

Your answer is despicable.


at least everyone's children would not be paying your bills for you.


 
42Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:57
The closest thing to "no risk" are T bills, which is where the Social Security Trust fund are parked.
 
43biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:00
at least everyone's children would not be paying your bills for you.

You know what? I happily pay your grandma's bills. That's what a society is, and that's what a society does.

The key here is that her great grandchildren take care of me too, when I'm too old to take care of myself.

Anything else is barbarism.
 
44biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:01
PD - the risk there is inflation. It's a significant risk.
 
45Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:11
bili

I am that guy. I have congestive heart failure and the government has stolen all my rainy day money and they aren't going to do squat for me.

Obama's death panel isn't going to do squat for me either, because they're only going to spend it on the young.
 
46boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:11
You know what? I happily pay your grandma's bills. That's what a society is, and that's what a society does.

I would much rather pay for past generations than have to pay for current one or future ones, the past ones are cheaper....
 
47Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:14
PD

I'm a grandfather and you have my e-mail to arrange payments.
 
48biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:21
I know you are that guy, Boldwin. That's why I chose the example. So instead of paying to medicare, instead you paid the 2.9% into an index fund. Say you made 50K a year over the last 10 years. More than the median, but you're a smart guy. Say you even invested well, and didn't lose 2/3rds of it, like most people, but managed, in a declining market to somehow make 5%, compounded.

So you have a tidy 22,000 saved up. Guess what a heart costs? 150,000 on average. Watcha gonna do?
 
49Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:39
Same thing I am now, or under Obama's death panel.
 
50Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:40
But at least under that plan I'd have a lifetime supply of Coreg.
 
51biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:43
You struggling with Bush's donut hole?
 
52Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:45
I haven't even looked into government aid. I am not in the slightest interested in asking those bastids for anything.
 
53biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:51
My sympathies to you and your loved ones.
 
54Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 14:57
If you had any sympathy you wouldn't put Ezekiel Emanuel anywhere near healthcare.
 
55biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 15:05
But then who would man the bolt gun?
 
56biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 15:13
In a 1997 article in The Atlantic, [Ezekiel] argued against doctor-assisted suicide and euthanasia, warning it would “become the rule in the context of demographic and budgetary pressures,” and “would make us want to extend the option to others who, in society’s view, are suffering and leading purposeless lives” — concerns reflecting the exact opposite of the views his critics now ascribe to him.

Soulless butcher.
 
57Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 15:24
I haven't even looked into government aid. I am not in the slightest interested in asking those bastids for anything.

good to know that your hubris carries over even into your death. and possibly even hastens it.

And i don't know about the Christian Bible, but i know that in the Torah you are allowed to do nearly anything possible to preserve life, and that includes taking money from others that may provide treatment to keep you alive.

Sorry your children and grandchildren have such a selfish man as their patriarch. it's disgusting.
 
58boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 15:40
Sorry your children and grandchildren have such a selfish man as their patriarch. it's disgusting.

how is he being selfish. this sounds more like the talk of selfish person: you are allowed to do nearly anything possible to preserve life, and that includes taking money from others that may provide treatment to keep you alive.
 
59Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 15:50

how is he being selfish. this sounds more like the talk of selfish person: you are allowed to do nearly anything possible to preserve life, and that includes taking money from others that may provide treatment to keep you alive.


"taking" was the wrong choice of words.

"accepting" would have been a much better choice.

I know if i said to my family "sorry, i realize government money might save my life, but i don't want it" they'd have me committed to the loony bin.
 
60boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 16:45
I know if i said to my family "sorry, i realize government money might save my life, but i don't want it" they'd have me committed to the loony bin. i guess that would be relative, if you refused help for something that is treatable and you can expect long life after wards then you are probably correct. If you refuse treatment and your choice is brain damage or death, or might only prolong you life a year or so on...I think that you are probably wrong.
 
61biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 16:50
I glad to see someone capable of seeing nuance, boikin.
 
62Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 17:02
If you refuse treatment and your choice is brain damage or death, or might only prolong you life a year or so on...I think that you are probably wrong.

a year is an awfully short time when it's your last one - but if someone said to me "you've got a fatal disease and it's gonna kill you tomorrow, or, we can help you live another year without it altering your lifestyle significantly," you can be damned sure i'd take that second option, for my sake that of my family.
 
63Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 17:18
I am willing to accept some of my own money back from that thief even if I can only recover scant pennies on the dollar. I am in no hurry to stand in line.
 
64boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 17:18
I still don't think it would make you crazy to say hey i have a good life, you i know ill go with out the treatment.
 
65biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 17:21
In certain situations, some people will do just that. And be right to do so.
 
66Boldwin
      ID: 1353071
      Thu, Jun 09, 2011, 16:55
Obamacare decides breast cancer victims to lose 4 months life. They're just not worth it.


Kiss your avastin and your wife goodbye.
 
67weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Thu, Jun 09, 2011, 17:33
Boldwin:
The rationing of healthcare will be nothing new.
Its a simple fact that we dont have unlimited money/resources to spend on it, whether its run by the government, private health insurance, or paid for out of pocket.
 
68Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jun 09, 2011, 21:34
You're right, wk: That's one of of the biggest reasons health care cost have skyrocketed in the US.

Another is the lack of hospice care options.

The problem with the example in #66 is that the drug hasn't been shown to be effective. Paying big big bucks for drugs that don't work very well is a really stupid way to care for people.
 
69Boldwin
      ID: 45549918
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 03:52
WK

I have a friend whose doctor told him retirees in England are denied dialysis. I haven't tracked down that story yet on the internet, but you would agree that is unacceptable rationing, would you not?

I'll agree $88K is a steep price to pay to see my wife live an extra 4 months, and I'd love to see the makers get realistic pricing, but I don't think avastin is ineffective or unnecessary.
 
70Boldwin
      ID: 45549918
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 05:07
Chain of thot:

When in Brazil the slogan was 'Drill Baby Drill'. Brazil's socialist government must be seen to work.
In fact the USA is underwriting a $2,000,000,000 loan to Petrobras so they can become our supplier.

What do you suppose avastin costs in Brazil?
 
71Boldwin
      ID: 45549918
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 05:09
Of course this stuff will be decided evenly across the board, right?
On Friday, March 30, 2011, Medicare indicated that it plans to cover the cost of Provenge, a prostate cancer drug that costs $93,000 per patient. In clinical trials, the drug extended the lives of patients receiving it by 4 months.
 
72Boldwin
      ID: 45549918
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 05:17
I'll have to say that normally the idea of government imposing some controls on drug pricing would be automatically ruled out on principle by me.

Knowing that we are the only country in the world to not control drug prices; knowing that drug companies are taking full advantage of that to gouge us for research costs that should be born by all countries using the drugs; knowing that the USA is bankrupt and on life-support...

...maybe it's time to revisit this particular situation. Not to get rationed to death but to get treated fairly.
 
73Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 08:06
#71: The FDA made their ruling based upon effectiveness, not cost.

And I should point out that the FDA and Medicare are not the same organizations. Saying that Medicare will cover one approved and expensive drug is not the same as pointing out that the FDA disallows another for saying it doesn't work very well.

Otherwise, it is like pointing out that the Army approved buying very expensive staff cars for senior staff while the DOT rates some other cars as unsafe.
 
74Boldwin
      ID: 45549918
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 12:43
Why do you suppose that the EU approved avastin the same day for the same use and they won't be rationing it?
 
75Boldwin
      ID: 45549918
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 12:46
And why should I trust some faceless panel of penny-pinchers instead of my doctor's judgement?
 
76Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 13:13
#74: The EU approved the RU286 in 1988. So you are now for using European drug approvals as the basis for our own? Are there any other US laws you would like to cede to European agencies? Off the top of my head, I'm guessing there is very little in the health care you would want to allow the Europeans to set, despite their higher longevity, lower infant mortality, etc.

#75: I have no idea why you continue to think the disapproval had anything to do with cost. The FDA isn't buying the drugs, and their disapproval states clearly that the reason has to do with effectiveness.

The FDA approves very expensive drugs all the time. Effective ones.
 
77biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 13:13
The FDA? Penny pinchers?

Given the incentives docs are getting from Health care orgs and big pharma, I would not be putting a lot of faith in your docs judgement.
 
78Boldwin
      ID: 865219
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 10:52


 
79Boldwin
      ID: 865219
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 10:57
You can't look her in the eye and tell her to go die.

Her congressman can't look her in the eye and tell her to go die.

So Obama has appointed a 'base closings' commission style board which can't be overturned by congress realistically...

...to look her in the eye and tell her to go die.

"oh but IPAB doesn't do specific cases, it only handles them system-wide so it's not really a death panel."

And then every one of those individual cases has their doctor tell them he is prohibited by the IPAB from saving their life and they must go off and die.
 
80Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 10:57
Don't ever wonder why we have a need for mandatory health care insurance in this country. You want people to pay for a very, very expensive drug treatment program which isn't altogether effective, for a tiny number of other people.

The money for it has to come from somewhere. If we can't cut out the ineffective drugs from the equation, we have no hope of ever getting the costs under control.
 
81Boldwin
      ID: 865219
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 11:12
If big pharma didn't need to recoup astronomical costs of getting FDA approval [ten years and a hundred billion] and then have to pay ghastly legal fees even when they win liability challenges, the cost would come down.

And by the way, why do we need both methods of quality control in place? They aren't going to produce drugs which they know will incur astonomical liability costs so why do we need the ten year FDA approval process?
 
82Boldwin
      ID: 865219
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 11:17
Or alternatively if the government after exhaustively testing for adverse reactions for ten years determines that the drug is safe and effective why do we then treat pharma like they knowingly poisoned Cleveland when ten more years turns up a problem no reasonable person could have expected?

Of course the reason is that for liberals everyone is a victim needing constant government intervention in their lives, big business is always evil and the rich have unlimited funds to steal.
 
83Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 12:16
Of course the reason is that for liberals everyone is a victim...

...says the guy who regularly posts videos and starts threads about "victims", and often proclaims himself to be a victim.
 
84DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 12:19
*Sigh, and I know sigh is outlawed, deal with it* I was actually starting to semi-agree with you (with regard to FDA testing/etc.) until you decided to go off the reservation with the random liberal-bashing. That makes it difficult to have a rational discussion (and on this subject, I think one is possible).

Anyway, how does this prevent a doctor from treating her? She can always do what you want a bunch of people to do now -- pay for it out of their own pocket. Or, if they can't, tell them to go die, I guess. I guess it's a lot easier on the conscience to condemn people to die, as the current system does, when you don't have to look them in the eye. Out of sight, out of mind.
 
85Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 12:47
hey aren't going to produce drugs which they know will incur astonomical liability costs...

Of course they don't. Except for Avandia. Paxil. Reglan. Digitek. Ketek. Zelnorm....

If there are no longer any problems with drug companies producing products which incur liability, then your cause to reduce liability awards when they are found guilty in court is complete.
 
86DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 13:06
I will say that I actually think there's a good point to be had there that once the government's put a drug through years and years of regulation, suing because of an unforeseen problem years and years later seems... not fair.

Of course, most of the same people promoting that argument are the ones that want to cut FDA regulation, so in that sense, they can go screw themselves. You can't have both and still have a "free market" -- you can have both if you're just a corporate shill that doesn't give a damn.

I'd be content with either of:

1. Intense government regulation and required testing (read: more intense even than we have now), in exchange for liability protection (assuming no fraud by the drugmaker in testing, of course -- if there's any misrepresentation or fraud, all bets are off -- I hope we can all agree to that); or

2. Lax testing regulations, but still with full disclosure required of what has been tested and what hasn't (if someone wants to put some goofball substance in their body that has been poorly tested, who am I to stop them, as long as they are properly informed as to what the product is and what it's been tested to do), along with full liability for problems that crop up later on in a drug's life (if you want to sell something, you darn well WILL be responsible for it).
 
87Boldwin
      ID: 865219
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 14:27
PD

So your argument is that both the FDA and pharma deliberately foisted killer drugs they knew to be faulty on the public?
 
88Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 14:39
No, my argument is that your suggestion to remove oversight because drug companies on their own would never put out a product which increases their liability risk isn't reality based.
 
89Boldwin
      ID: 865219
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 17:22
My argument was that the threat of huge lawsuits would prevent them from deliberately and knowingly put out a product which increases their liability risk.

So you either haven't countered my argument or you believe both the FDA and pharma knew Avandia. Paxil. Reglan. Digitek. Ketek. Zelnorm were unacceptably dangerous and so a second mechanism beyond the FDA is necessary to prevent them both from knowingly releasing too dangerous of a product.

 
90nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Sat, Jul 02, 2011, 15:07
How is this any different then the current death panels? The insurance companies? If a procedure is too expensive and they decide not to cover it there is no difference. Were you writing posts back then? Or only when you perceive your political opponent is doing the same thing?

We've read story after story of people with insurance, being denied treatment by insurance companies because the treatment is "experimental" or "too expensive", where are your threads about that? or is it only convenient when it involves Obama?
 
91DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Jul 02, 2011, 15:54
Ah, but see, if it's corporations doing it, the "free market" mantra kicks in (never mind that what we have now is a million miles from a free market, and never mind that a free market implies rational actors, WHICH YOU DON'T HAVE IF ONE OF THE PARTIES IS GOING TO FREAKING DIE), because those guys have bribed enough officials, er, contributed enough to campaigns, that people dying because they want more money is OK.
 
92Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jul 02, 2011, 17:26
#89: I don't think you are altogether clear on how liability works. A company doesn't gain liability risk by putting out a product it deliberately and knowingly knows to be faulty.

I'll grant you that should they put out a product it knows to be risky then it would gain the most liability the quickest. It is, then, the most efficient way of gaining liability. But that wasn't your point, was it?

A company gains liability that it knows or should have known does harm or does not work in the way that they advertise.

Your asking why we have the FDA be the place where the drug companies prove their product claims doesn't demonstrate much of an understanding that it is in the work of proving the claims that most drug companies determine whether their drugs are safe or not.

There is one system in place, not two. And you want to remove the part where they prove that the drugs are safe and do what the drug companies claim--hoping that the courts will keep drug companies in line (all the while, capping the limits on such rewards for companies found guilty).

You have to choose: If you want the courts to take the place of the FDA then you need to stop tinkering with the process and by making it less of the barrier you dream it to be right now.
 
93Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jul 02, 2011, 17:45
I should add that while you might like to think you are speaking for the drug companies here, you are not. They like having the FDA around. Not only does it provide an industry-wide process for evaluating the safety of their forthcoming products (with its associative consistency in pricing and process), but having the FDA reduces the drug company liabilities. A company which demonstrates implementation of FDA labels and has gone through the process of obtaining approval for the product is partially (in some cases totally) shielded from suit.

 
94Boldwin
      ID: 5461213
      Sat, Jul 02, 2011, 23:46
So why do we then drag them thru court like they deliberately poisoned Cleveland after the government stamped approved on it?
 
95DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Jul 03, 2011, 00:23
Frequently (not always, but frequently), it's because they lied to the FDA during the testing.
Also, because government testing currently is designed to make sure drugs meet minimum standards for public safety (e.g. won't kill everyone), not because the required tests are designed to check for everything that could crop up.

The testing is designed to make sure drugs are "acceptably dangerous" (to borrow your phrase) from a societal standpoint. It seems you think that "only kills a few people" (which is where the current FDA testing sort of puts things) means that the few people that it does kill (and could have been tested for, but wasn't) shouldn't have any recourse.
 
96Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 03, 2011, 00:48
We also drag them to court because we don't have any real idea of what the FDA saw and what they didn't. The process of discovery (which only occurs under threat of, or with a real, court order) is what makes clear where the blame, if any, occurs.
 
97Boldwin
      ID: 5461213
      Sun, Jul 03, 2011, 01:18
It's double jeopardy, make em spend a king's ransom getting past the FDA, then make them spend it again proving it all over, and then they're evil and the reason medicine is expensive, not liberals. Sheesh.
 
98Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 03, 2011, 01:23
The costs of proving the drug to be safe in the first place is far, far more than providing the documentation of the proof as a result of a lawsuit. And (this must be something you skimmed) as I mentioned the FDA approval often provides limited liability and it eliminates lawsuits in the first place by giving a minimum level of safety for the drug product, provided labeling, warnings, etc are followed.

There is no "double" anything.

Who said "evil?" Well, you did, but who in their right mind?
 
99Boldwin
      ID: 5461213
      Sun, Jul 03, 2011, 02:07
Who said "evil?"

The plot of every Hollywood movie dealing with pharma?

Ever liberal does when they point the finger at big business.

They want to punish them. What does that imply?
 
100DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Jul 03, 2011, 11:54
Usually, it implies that they did something wrong.

Why do you want to give businesses immunity from their errors which kill people?

Also, LOL at citing movies as your shining beacon of what people believe. You know why they don't make movies about people making successful drugs that don't kill people? Because it's boring as hell, nobody could follow 98% of the plot even if it was dumbed down, and Julia Roberts doesn't look nearly as hot in a lab coat with full face covering as she does in a skimpy business suit -- all of which means nobody would burn money putting the story on film.

The FDA requires drug makers to test for A, B, C, and D -- and generally speaking, provides liability against claims arising from A, B, C, and D. If problems X, Y, ans Z crop up -- which could have also been testable, but the company decided not to spend the money for it -- why should they be immune from liability for those problems? You haven't given a single reason (good or otherwise) for this position other than you don't think corporations should have to spend money on stuff like that.
 
101Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 03, 2011, 12:03
#99: I mean really. This isn't even up to your usual standards. No one here said or even implied that drug companies are "evil." Not even DW. So you've decided to bug out of the discussion at hand to tip windmills against "Hollywood" instead.

What does that imply?

This is like six degrees. It is a discussion entirely in your head. How the hell should I know what your bogeymen are implying to you?
 
102Boldwin
      ID: 465448
      Mon, Jul 04, 2011, 10:09
These are the memes liberals are trying to force into the zeitgeist.

Do totalitarian countries think movies matter? The totalitarians among us here do too.

Of course liberals in Hollywood are trying to move their agenda forward by demonizing big business and the drug companies and traditional family and men and traditional American values, etc. This is axiomatic. It's not even debatable.

'Mission Impossible II' and 'The Constant Gardener' and 'The Fugitive' and movies ad infinitum push the liberal 120 minutes of hate against the drug companies forward every showing. Sabotaging healthcare costs until they can proclaim that socialism the only way to cut thru the sabotage high costs.
 
103DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Mon, Jul 04, 2011, 12:46
There was a farmer had a dog...
 
104sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Mon, Jul 04, 2011, 22:13
102...wasnt "The Fugitive", a remake of an early 1960s TV series?

B, really...Hollywood (in the interest of a free market), puts out movies which they reasonably expect will sell tickets and garner gross. Hence, porn for ex. Not a liberal push, but something that sells, a product, with an identifiable demand. THAT, is what Hollywood does.
 
105Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 01:09
Sarge

1) Yes, the movie plot was about a drug company covering up research results in order to sell bad drugs.

2) Actually family value movies outsell the stuff Hollywood usually puts out but Hollywood doesn't want to/doesn't make it anyway.
 
106nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 07:50

So Baldwin you are ignoring the point that Death Panels already exist with Insurance companies?



 
107DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 10:14
So, who actually puts out the "family values" movies then:

A) Santa Claus
B) The Tooth Fairy
C) The Easter Bunny
D) Hollywood

Also, re: 106... obviously.
 
108Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 11:50
I'm trying to get past the notion that B doesn't think Hollywood makes movies in which the government plays the role of antagonist.
 
109Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 12:37
Only against innocent drug companies, MITH.
 
110Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 12:56
For whatever Alex Leo's research is worth...
I tracked ten of the best-loved action stars over the past 30 years: Clint Eastwood, Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis, Steven Seagal, Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Harrison Ford, Wesley Snipes, Mel Gibson and James Bond (he may not be real, but he’s definitely an action hero). I looked into each of their films (most of which I have not seen) and deciphered the villains’ ethnicities/races/affiliations. (I hope I did this all correctly but in some of the lesser-known films it was hard to tell so let me know if you find errors!) I discarded categories with only one or two entries: deranged wives (“Presumed Innocent”), clones (“Blade Runner”), the IRA (“The Devil’s Own”) and split the rest into ten categories: African-Americans (light green on the graphs below), Nazis/Germans (purple), Russians (light orange), Middle Easterners (red), American military/government/law enforcement (dark blue), the mob/organized crime (brown), South/Central Americans (dark orange), North-East Asians (dark green), non-governmental white guys (light blue), and American companies (yellow). I should also note that I tried to get to the root villain—not just the people causing damage. So in Bond films I didn’t count the henchmen and “The Jackal” went red as the men who hired Bruce Willis were Middle Eastern.

As you can see the overall winner of the villain tally is American military/government/law enforcement. Our own protectors even beat out the Russians in the 80s! We are a country that distrusts government innately and that has translated to film. It’s also just fun when the bad guy is the NSA director or a dirty cop because that adds another level of paranoia and danger from within. The interesting thing is that by 2000, Middle Easterners have fallen off the chart completely (as have Nazis, but what do you expect).




My apologies to Boldwin for challenging his dearly cherished victimhood status.
 
111DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 13:42
(in before "that just shows what giant commie marxist pinkos they are, they even protect the Nazis and Russians more than their best buddies in America, this would never happen if James Dobson was appointed czar of filmmaking")
 
112Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 14:04
African americans are very under-represented.I think this just shows that the jews who run Hollywood are inherently racist and African-Americans just can't get a break from the man!

(yes, its all sarcasm!)
 
113Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 15:02
the first rule of the jews running hollywood is to not discuss the jews who run hollywood. if you jesus freaks loved money as much as we do (we take baths in 100 dollar bills on a daily basis), you could run hollywood too.

/sarcasm.
 
114DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 15:05
Man, and I was going to convert just for the jokes.

/sarcasm... or is it?
 
115sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 15:14
death panels? Talk to these folks about TODAYS "death panels", AKA "Health Care Administrators":

Couple underpays ins premium by TWO CENTS...policy cancelled

Lying on an examining table in a Colorado medical facility last month, cancer patient Ronald Flanagan, 60, was about to undergo a bone marrow biopsy on his hip when his wife, Frances, unexpectedly entered the procedure room and brought things to a halt.

The reason? The Flanagans had underpaid their December health care insurance premium of $328.69 by 2 cents. The administrator of their medical claims, Ceridian Cobra Services, subsequently dropped their coverage, meaning that Flanagan's biopsy wouldn't be covered...



No, we dont need to reform things. They work just jim-dandy fine the way they are....

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
 
116Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 15:55
No, we dont need to reform things

We absolutely need to reform things. I believe the majority of both sides agrees with that. Its just a matter of how we go about those reforms that is a bone of contention. Personally, I don't believe Obamacare is truly reform. Rather its a shift of responsbility but the structure and basic inner-workings of healthcare are still there.

And that also is the problem with many offerings made by the Republicans. Neither side has offered up true reform.
 
117Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 20:20
Every state has an insurance board that is supposed to prevent abuses like that.
 
118Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 05, 2011, 20:37
Baldwin calling for strong government oversight of insurance abuses? Baby steps...
 
119Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 00:16
He's on the right track though. Each 'state' has its own oversight. Not an area the fed needs to get this involved in.

I do believe there needs to be some national guidelines. But guidelines. The bulk of the regulation should come from state level.
 
120biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 07:00
why?
 
121Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 07:14
Because you at least get something like free enterprise when different state models compete against each other in the real world. One size fits all central planning is really not reality based. There is no messaging system that rewards success and discourages failed ideas. In fact with central planning real world failing policies are just as often political successes.

Then there is the constitutional point that central planners shouldn't be exercising powers not enumerated by the constitution to the federal government. A point dodged by those [totalitarians] who claim the commerce clause extends to every conceivable government action.
 
122Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 10:45
I continue to wonder why you think the health care law is anything like "central planning." Requiring people to purchase health insurance from private insurance companies is free market on steroids.
 
123Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 11:29
Requiring people to purchase health insurance from private insurance companies is free market on steroids.

Those 2 bolded terms don't really go in the same sentence.

And, requiring it citizenry to purchase anything is going beyond the powers of the federal government.
 
124Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 11:47
You missed the "on steroids" part. Forcing everyone to participate in a free market system is the steroidal aspect.

Putting aside the Constitutional question, everything Baldwin says is a feature of free enterprise is exactly why the health care law was drawn up the way it was. It got rid of the most severe of the problems (dropping people from coverage when they get sick, for example) but kept the state-based regulatory scheme in place.
 
125sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 12:30
re 117 and 119...dont misunderstand the role of the State Insurance Commission(er). They ensure that companies wishing to do business in that state, write contracts in a form which complies with that states particular contract law. They ensure that the companies reserves, meet that states requirements to maintain solvency. They ensure that premiums charged and claims paid, result in a loss-ratio, which conforms with that states standards. I've never known one, to be much in the way of a "consumer complaint" bureau.
 
126Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 13:16
125 - they also approve rate increases/decreases, policy language, have a customer complaint department (at least in Pa), issue and monitor state licenses to companies and individuals.

All these things are areas which are state specific. No 1-size-fits-all federal program can work.
 
127sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 14:45
Certain minimal standards could easily be federalized. States then, would (should??) be free to enact more stringent guidelines, just not less so.
 
128Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 15:57
I've never known one, to be much in the way of a "consumer complaint" bureau.

Then they should be changed to be such in extreme cases. Skipping their responsibilities over trivial lapses strikes every one of us as fraud and these boards should see it that way too.

Until I find sound counter-examples I'll defer to you on this issue [considering your background] with the proviso that dysfunctional or toothless can be fixed in some cases. Especially in cases where the public can be easily enflamed to push for reform.
 
129Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 16:07
I think the problem is that there is an unevenness of how these things are handled from state to state.

My own experience is limited to NJ & PA. The former has a very strong consumer protection component in their Dept of Banking and Insurance. In fact, I might have mentioned here that when my son was diagnosed with autism and the insurance company was giving us a hard time, we had the guy who actually wrote the law in that area (which required insurance companies to cover costs associated with the treatment of any "biologically-based mental disorders") up in arms about our problems. Luckily the insurance company gave in when faced with the good Senator's forthcoming wrath. Which carried the implied threat of suspending their license in the state to issue new policies--nothing like telling a company that their new revenue stream might be halted to get them to become a little more flexible.

The nature of any state-by-state approach is that the regulations and their policing are, by nature, uneven. But it typically allows for citizens to have more input into how they are done.
 
130Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 16:32
I think 'welfare reform' is an excellent example. It would have never been improved at the federal level but when places like Michigan finally started to get a handle on it, reforms quickly swept the nation based loosely on their successful example.
 
131Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 16:37
Exactly. One size fits all is great for rights protections, but the actual administration of things should, as much as possible, be on the state or local levels.
 
132Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 16:43
That's also the main reason they do 'block grants'. At the risk of stating the obvious.
 
133nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 18:10

Every state has an insurance board that is supposed to prevent abuses like that.

Bogus answer.

All the things you worry about are already happening.

People are being denied coverage for financial reasons.

You are worried the Federal government will deny coverage for financial reasons.

So it's happening now and your response is a flippant one line, "states are supposed to blah, blah, blah."

But they aren't. We know this. We know people are being denied treatments for financial reasons.

So while it is happening today, and this is an undisputed fact. You cough and look the other way.

Then you wring your hands and flay your arms over an Orwelian future with the Muslim President sitting on a thrown sentencing people to death to ration health care.

But it's already happening.

When it's put on a petri dish and held under a microscope for you, you brush it aside with the weak response that states regulate it. So for the record, you don't mind insurance companies withholding medical treatment for people to save money, as long as the state says it's ok? You just worry that the Fed's might do the same thing?

Typical warped Baldwinian logic.



 
134Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 20:21
1) Yes I am angry the state boards aren't holding them to a stricter standard.

2) The death panels will not even allow a doctor to perform a procedure not by their book. That is different and worse than just not having it paid for.

3) Insurance companies don't have the authority to railroad someone into euthanasia. The feds will.
 
135Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 21:16
Hahaha. Sorry--everything you say is wrong about "obamacare" is exactly what the insurance companies were doing before. Exactly. And everything bad you've said about the health care law has either proven to be wrong, or somehow will come about in the future. Sometime.

You're like a zombie arguer. You just don't know that you're dead.
 
136Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 21:26
The insurance companies ordered you to buy their insurance or else face a fine or jail?
 
137Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 21:33
The insurance company said, 'Yes you've paid into the system all your life but you are old so go take a pain pill and die?'
 
138DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 21:45
Well, nobody has actually said THAT, despite you wishing your political enemies would do despicable things.
 
139Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 21:53
Yes, Obama said that.
 
140Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 22:01
Yes, Obama said that.

At least be honest enough to admit you've taken great liberties with your paraphrasing.
 
141sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 23:19
re 139...link, showing Pres Obama saying that exact thing.
 
142Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 11:06
I believe this video is the basis for the "quote" attributed to Obama in #137.

Much like the blogger who distorts and twists Obama's words into some type of evil indifference to the medical needs of the elderly, Boldwin refuses to address the incredible amount of money spent on patients in their 80s and 90s, often with questionable results as to the extension of a quality life, at the same time screaming about budget deficits and government spending. The position that Medicare is a bottomless pit of funds designed to accomodate every surgey for every octogenerian regardless of cost and result is neither economically prudent, nor economically conservative. It's especially strange to find Boldwin and Nancy Pelosi on the same side of an issue:

After a contentious White House meeting with President Obama and other Congressional leaders, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) returned to the Capitol and drew an important red line: Members of her caucus won't vote for a grand bargain to raise the debt limit and reduce future deficits if the final deal includes cuts to Medicare link

As Nerveclinic has pointed out several times in this thread, how is it honest to deride government suggestions of limited care in certain instances, based on economic realities, while defending for-profit insurance companies who routinely deny procedures based on any number of criteria?
 
143Boldwin
      ID: 3669811
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 12:10
Again it isn't just that he's willing to turn off his compassion over heroic efforts. It's that I don't trust his respect for individual life. Further I think that line will creep younger and younger. Further and most importantly he will absolutely stone-cold prevent every doctor in the country from performing a service you think valuable, even if you are willing to pay for it yourself. They cannot or won't allow a secondary path to medical care.
 
144Boldwin
      ID: 3669811
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 12:13
In other words, that mother worried about her mom has a right to be terrified. Even if she is willing to sell the house and pay for that operation out of her own pocket, no doctor in the country will dare practice outside the book because he will know the penalty.
 
145DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 12:17
His position has more respect for life than yours does, and it's not even close.

Also, citation please, from the actual legislation and not random opinion pieces saying what might happen in an imagined fictional dystopia. Or, quit blathering your lies.
 
146Boldwin
      ID: 3669811
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 12:20
How often do I have to do that? Because it never registers when I do.
 
147DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 12:34
Once to the actual legislation would be a good start. (Hint: it isn't housed on WND)
 
148Boldwin
      ID: 3669811
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 13:17
"The goal is not only universal coverage but also a similar healthcare experience for everyone, regardless of ability to pay" - Dr. David Blumenthal, a Harvard professor and key health advisor to President Obama (New England Journal of Medicine, March 8, 2001).

In March, President Obama appointed Dr. David Blumenthal to head the system of computer-guided medical care as the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology. Just days later, Dr. Blumenthal settled a debate on whether the system will control doctors' treatment decisions. In an article in the New England Journal of Medicine (April 9, 2009), Dr. Blumenthal stressed that the real importance of computers [and the urgency to computerize medicine - B] is to deliver "embedded clinical decision support," a euphemism for computers telling doctors what to do. He predicted that if controls are too tight, physicians may resist the government encroaching on their treatment decisions: "many physicians and hospitals may rebel -- petitioning Congress to change the law or just resigning themselves to…accepting penalties." Dr. Blumenthal's latest article corrects CNN's Elizabeth Cohen and FactCheck.org's Lori Robertson, who insisted incorrectly that nothing in the stimulus legislation indicated "the government is going to tell your doctor what to do."
And of course it's not just that they already intend to administer tight controls over what doctors can and cannot do, penalizing doctors who don't follow strictly...it's also that "the legislation gives the Secretary of Health and Human Services total discretion to define "meaningful user" and to make the definition "more stringent" over time."

In fact that is a favorite tactic of liberals to legally ratchet the policy tighter ever year. Every year has to beat last year's target.

Another tactic is to put the enforcement beyond congressional review. Sebelius and her successors will not have to get congressional input to guide how tight they tighten the screws.
...slipped into the emergency stimulus legislation was substantial funding for a Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research, a board with a troubling mission. Studying which medication or device works best is obviously a good thing, but comparative effectiveness research is generally code for limiting care based on the patient's age.
You will only get that treatment if your QALYS or quality-adjusted life years score divides properly. Your chance of getting that heartcare decreases every year as your age denominator increases, so the more you need heart care, the less your doctor will be allowed to provide.

Ezekiel Emanuel is in charge of this and he is the most cold-hearted, openly hostile to the Hippocratic Oath, euthanasia pushing bastard in the country now that Dr. Death Cransford has died.

Sooner or later this specific man will literally kill you, no hyperbole, unless Obamacare is repealed.
 
149sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 13:56
"embedded clinical decision SUPPORT"......is not necessarily the same as a dictatorial on what can/cant be done.

You are blindly leaping B, and ASSUMING a worse case scenario in ALL cases, simply because you disagree with the political leanings of the man behind it, ie Obama.

Shame on you for your disingenuousness.
 
150Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 14:04
generally code for limiting care based on the patient's age.

Yes, that's exactly what finding out which medicines and treatments are effective is. Killing off old people.

If ever faced with real, actual, evil, your head will explode.
 
151Boldwin
      ID: 3669811
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 14:46
Every year the doctor will need to prove he has moved farther away from the Hyppocratic oath and has done less and less of the very best he could do for his patients. And every year the penalties for not having done so will be increased till they are completely prohibitive.

And PD, disingenuous is writing in one place in the bill that you aren't going to do something and then setting up an elaborate system of doing exactly that elsewhere in the bill.

Whereupon PD disingenuously reads the meaningless denial.
 
152Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 15:00
Whereas Boldwin assumes doctors will go against the express points made in the document and start killing people because the someone kinda told them to. As opposed to insurance companies previously simply telling doctors to do what they want, but they won't get paid for any of it because the patient suddenly started asking the insurance company to pay their health care bills.

I think you are just a cranky contrarian at this point, Boldwin. You really don't know what you want, only that you want to complain against anything proposed by a Democrat. Even if they agree with a position you held previously.
 
153sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 15:06
...only that you want to complain against anything proposed by a Democrat. Even if they agree with a position you held previously.

Meet the modern day Republican.
 
154Boldwin
      ID: 3669811
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 19:10
Go ahead and pretend you don't understand what they intend to do.

They are going to tell a doctor he needs to spend less per patient year after year or he will be fined more and more each year.

They are eventually going to tell doctors they can't treat heart patients if they are past retirement age because their QALYS are too low and falling every year. Treating a retiree with heart problems just wouldn't be 'comparatively effective' treatment. [the gall of PD to paint Comparative Effectiveness Research as anything other than a sinister euphemism for denial of care]

They are going to pressure doctors into locating to undesirable locations. They are going to have far less doctors facing far more demands.

Their 'talks' about turning down healthcare and rolling over and dying, are going to be pressure to...they aren't friendly information.

There is not one iota of convergence between Ezekiel Emanuel's views and my views of healthcare and individual worth and justice and there never has been.
 
155sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 19:51
Insurance companies TODAY, tell Doctors they cant do this, that or the other procedure. Based PURELY, on how large the claim check would have to be.

Insurance companies TODAY, CANCEL your insurance, after years of claim free premium payments, BECAUSE you got diagnosed with this or that long term degenerative condition.

The UK has had single-payer government provided health care for DECADES. Stephen Hawkings wasnt denied care, from the early age of 22 or thereabouts onward.

Your claims, your screams, your allegations...are made out of blind hatred for the very idea that the free market is NOT the answer for every economic query.
 
156Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 22:27
1) In the UK you have a massively greater chance of dying of cancer because they keep you waiting for treatment until enuff people with cancer die off to save them money.

2) No insurance company in the world has the power to tell your doctor he cannot give you the exact treatment he feels you need even if you paid with your own moeny...

...except the government kind run by people like Ezekiel Emanuel.
 
157DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 00:48
*shrug* As long as you're happy with people in for-profit companies hundreds of miles away from your home making decisions about your health, I guess that's good enough for you.

And if they're not profitable (enough), screw 'em, let them die, it's their fault for being poor in the first place.
 
158Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 01:09
Trotting out old memes doesn't help convert people to your points, Boldwin. "Massively greater" has no basis in reality.

No insurance company in the world has the power...

No one is really saying they do. The way it works is that they refuse to pay for it. Given the cost of treatments, this is pretty much the same as saying "no" to the treatment in question.

This, of course, will not change. Under the current health care law, there is no change in the ability of insurance companies to tell doctors what to do and what not to do. But they are much more likely to pay for it now.
 
159sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 01:11
rew 156; (1) False. (2) True (with qualifications) who the hell HAS the moeny, to pay out of ppocket for $100,000 surgical treatments, plus an additional $50k for the anesthitist, pluse $25k for the hospital room, plus-plus-plus

Yea B...you go on believing its better to bankrupt yourself than to POSSIBLY be denied a kidney transplant at 101 yrs of age because it wouldnt be cost effective. I'll avoid using the word I think would be descriptive of one who holds such a belief. But as a clue, it starts with M, ends with N and has part of an oreo in the middle.
 
160Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 09:12
Go back to the video of Obama saying he'd deny the pacemaker, go take a pain pill. I think the woman's solution was better than Obama's solution.

I don't want a Dr. Death like Ezekiel Emanual anywhere near my life or death decisions.

I don't want people who think like Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood anywhere near my healthcare decisions.

I don't want people who think like Thomas Robert Malthus anywhere near my on/off switch.

It is unacceptible to wait in lines for many months for cancer diagnosis and treatment.

I've twice been hours away from dying which only emergency room intervention prevented.

I don't want to wait.
 
161Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 09:20
It is unacceptible to wait in lines for many months for cancer diagnosis and treatment.

My cousin Eleanor married a Brit and moved to London in the mid 70s. Although she never smoked a cigarette in her life, she was diagnosed with lung cancer several years ago and died last year. According to her parents(my Uncle Bob and Aunt Louise) and her sister(my cousin Joanie), she received exemplary care in the British health system from diagnosis to the very end.

Your evaluation of the British health system:

In the UK you have a massively greater chance of dying of cancer because they keep you waiting for treatment until enuff people with cancer die off to save them money.

is irresponsibly slanderous, as well as factually unsupported, which pretty much sums up your entire position on the health care issue.



 
162Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 09:26
It's perfectly accurate.
 
163Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 09:31
"It is not a question of examining whether particular cancer doctors or cancer specialists are better in different countries.

"It's the overall system and how people are channelled through it, to optimal treatment."
This is an admission from the marxist BBC. They deserve a lot less patience and respect than the BBC will give them.
 
164biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 09:49
As someone who as tried it, it nearly impossible to do anything but hopelessly flawed cancer morbidity and mortality rate comparisons between countries. These ecological comparisons are so difficult because most cancers have large genetic and environmental components which effect both the risk and virulence. Countries have large variation in the genetic make-up of their populace as well as large variations in environmental exposures (like diet, smoking rates etc...). They also have vastly different screening programs and even sometimes different defintions of in-situ vs. stage 1 cancer.

You might be better off looking at intermediate outcomes, but since that is really what you are speculating might be the problem (should we be treating prostate cancer as aggressively as we are? Does the PSA do more harm than good?), that is also problematic.

Generally, I put almost no stock in ecologic cancer studies.
 
165Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 09:54
Do a little google search for how Britain screens for bowel cancer.
 
166biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 10:12
The effectiveness (as opposed to the efficacy) of colorectal cancer screening is unclear.

Reading through the British guidelines for recommended screening, they seem perfectly reasonable.
 
167Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 10:13
BTW if they should catch you sneaking off to get the medicine you really need but that they deny you, they cut you off from all medical care.
 
168Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 10:16
bili

They didn't even have a bowel cancer screening in place before 2000. They routinely deny tests for many forms of cancer, tests common in this country claiming as an excuse that the tests aren't good enuff yet. Good enuff in better medical systems tho.
 
169PV on hole 10
      ID: 18621911
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 12:21
Where in 162 does it state that treatment or diagnosis is withheld until a cancer patient dies to save money?
 
170Boldwin
      ID: 54651104
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 05:55
It says their system sucks and that's why cancer patients are likely to die unnecessarily.

Why does their system suck?

Waiting lists to save money on the number of doctors. [and discourage people from even bothering to get checked out]

Expensive drugs disallowed.

Treatment delayed especially for elderly and disabled.

Equipment delayed and missing, supplies delayed and missing, poor and unclean facilities.

Each medical center gets penalized the closer they get to doing the best medicine they know how to do.

 
171Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 09:01
Rather than address my question in #169, #170 simply adds a new collection of accusations, none of which are supported in the #162 link, which is presented as "perfectly accurate."

The jist of the article is that the UK is narrowing the gap with the other countries in the study(Canada, Australia, Denmark, Norway, Sweden).

Sara Hiom, of Cancer Research UK, said while it was encouraging to see survival rates for cancer improving, the differences between countries needed examination.

"When the government refreshes its cancer strategy, it's vital to retain a focus on early diagnosis and on improving equitable access to treatment."


Improving equitable access to treatment is an element every health system should strive for, including the US. But when someone inserts the term the marxist BBC into the conversation, it's quite obvious that an intelligent and honest discussion of the issue isn't in the cards.


 
172Boldwin
      ID: 54651104
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 21:16
Are you honestly suggesting the BBC doesn't lean hard hard left?
 
173Boldwin
      ID: 54651104
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 21:18
And when they admit their system is just the worst...

...maybe you shouldn't be holding theirs up like a roadmap to paradise.
 
174sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 21:59
no, mucgh better to hold up our own system, where people DIE because they cant afford insurance and therefore dont get tests done and thus dont get the diagnosis until the cancer has reached a stage beyond which it can be cured.

Your free market ignorance B, is truly getting old.
 
175Boldwin
      ID: 54651104
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 22:30
No one is claiming perfection.
 
176sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 12:46
Repub;licans speak often of "Tort Reform" and how the current system adds undue burdens to the cost of practicing medicine. Allow me please, to present the "flip side":

1983, a personal friend of mine is medi-vacced from Germany and since she and I are not family, the Army wont tell me where they took her. Fast forward, July 2010...I finally find her, after an unending 27 year search.

1 Neuro-surgery performed by VA in the fall of 1983. Post Op, the surgean tells her and her family, "We blew it. You'll have to endure this again and possibly a 3rd time". Post op after 3rd trip into her skull, she enters a coma. That lasts 3 months. Comes out of the cvoma, quadraplegic and unable to speak. Esophagus is paralyzed in addition to her extremities.


SHE CAN NOT FILE SUIT FPOR MALPRACTICE. She was US Army. GI's, are legally deemed "Government Property", NOT government employees. Property, has no legal standing for filing suit.

Surgeon ADMITS to the patient AND the family "we blew it",
Patient spends the rest of her life in a wheelchair,
Patient has more meds in her kitchen cabinet than some pharmacies stock (I kid you not),
Patient has no legal recourse...none. Gets to live in pain, 24/7.


You want tort reform? How about giving those who wear the uniform, the right to seek compense when the victims of malpractice/incompetence?
 
177Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 16:17
Why are some professions supposed to be able to guarantee perfection? Do you believe they deliberately screwed up? Do you believe the army employs unskilled doctors?

Digging around in a brain is dangerous. Things can go wrong. I have a dear friend who died because the cancer was wrapped around too much nerve and blood vessel for surgery to be doable. Had they been willing to risk it I wouldn't be looking to sue them if they couldn't beat the odds.

It's a sad sad story but bankrupting her doctors or the country isn't the answer. I'm sure the country could be a less tight-fisted to vets.

Seems the government isn't willing to put themselves thru the impossible legal hell the rest of us are at risk for.
 
178DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 17:19
Do you think someone should be able to sue because the surgeon cut off the wrong limb in amputation surgery? Or is that a "oops, heh, well, stuff goes wrong, too bad so sad" issue for you as well? Under what you are proposing, you wouldn't be able to sue for that.
 
179DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 17:21
Examples: link

That study concluded that there are 1,300 to 2,700 wrong-site procedures annually in the United States.

Should these people be allowed to sue? I mean, surgery's complicated, that whole left-right thing is tough.
 
180sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 18:16
re 177...when the leader of the sutrgical team, stands in your room and TELLS you..."We blew it"; is there really any remaining room to question whether or not a claim is legit?

 
181sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 18:30
let me add too:

Do you believe the army employs unskilled doctors?

Unskilled? No. LESSER skilled? Abso-fvcking-lutely.
 
182weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 18:53
Very sad story Sarge.
Unfortunately we will be looking at far more of these sad stories due to Obamacare.
My sister-in-law is a nurse and she is telling me almost every doctor she talks with will be retiring once the plan kicks in.
Where will we find qualified replacements?
The cut in pay doctors will be facing wont pay for the student loans for potential new recruits.
Obamacare: Costs more/expect less.
 
183DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 19:09
Citations please for basically everything you just said.

Anyway, perhaps the medical school costs will come down in a market where they are in less demand, which is always a good thing. Less government-subsidized and backed loans = smaller government! We win!
 
184weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 19:25
So now you need a citation for simple economics?
If you pay people less for something you will get less qualified individuals.

Medical school costs will go up not down. There will be more of a demand for doctors due to a higher demand for services and the need to replace early retirements.
(Simple economics)
Unfortunately those applying will be less qualified. (Citation already provided).
More governtment loans = bigger government. We all lose.
 
185DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 19:48
Um, why would people spend huge amounts of money to go into medical school if they expect to get a negative return on their investment and won't be able to repay the loan? Isn't that "simple economics"?
 
186Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 19:57
We'll just have to hire illegal aliens to do the work Americans won't.
 
187DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 20:00
*shrug* You're already getting a bunch of foreign (legal) doctors now, because they can get as good an education as we can provide here for a fraction of the cost, and are willing to come here and work for less.

I suppose we could just put barbed wire up and keep the doctors away too. That would be an effective solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
 
188sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 20:18
re 182; In the past year, I have dated both an RN and an LPN. Neither, has made similar comments to those attributed to your sister-in-law. Not saying this is necessarily so, but it could be she is experiencing a biased sample or persons who are motivated PURELY out of personal greed/ambition.

As for the "cut in pay not paying for student loans", thats not truly relevant anyway. Doctors (followed closely by Lawyers), are the worst profession historically at repaying their student loans.
 
189Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 20:36
When we said nearly half of U.S. doctors might close their practices or retire early rather than live under the Democrats' health overhaul, we were heavily criticized. The critics, though, were wrong.

Four in nine doctors responding to an IBD/TIPP poll sent out in August 2009 said they "would consider leaving their practice or taking an early retirement" if Congress passed what has become known as ObamaCare. That means as many as 360,000 physicians have plans to be doing something other than treating the growing number of patients in this country.

The doctors also told us — 67% to 22%, with 11% not responding — that they expected fewer students to apply for medical school in the future if the plan became law.

Given these views, it's no surprise that 71% were doubtful that the government would be able to cover the 47 million uninsured Americans with better care at lower costs, which ObamaCare supporters have promised.

Other findings from our poll of 1,376 doctors included: six in 10 agreeing that the Democrats' plan would strip drug companies of the incentives they need to make lifesaving pharmaceuticals, and 65% believing that a government overhaul would lead to lower-quality care for seniors.
------------------------------------------------
Now a Merritt Hawkins survey of 2,379 doctors for the Physicians Foundation completed in August has vindicated our poll. It found that 40% of doctors said they would "retire, seek a nonclinical job in health care, or seek a job or business unrelated to health care" over the next three years as the overhaul is phased in.

Of those who said they planned to retire, 28% are 55 or younger and nearly half (49%) are 60 or younger.

A larger portion (74%) said they plan to make "one or more significant changes in their practices in the next one to three years, a time when many provisions of health reform will be phased in."

In addition to retirement, and finding nonclinical jobs elsewhere, those changes include working part time, closing practices to new patients, employment at a hospital, cutting back on the number of patients and switching to a cash or concierge practice.

Obama doesn't like them much either.
 
190sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:00
as many as....is an empty, meaningless phrase which allows an astronomically high or low value to follow it. This kind of thing is often used by car dealers....UP TO $7500 GUARANTEED for your trade!!!!!! Guess what? $1.75 IS..."up to" 7500. Just as 113 physicians IS "up tp" 360,000.

Meaningless drivel, devoid of meaningful content, intended to lure in the unwary. PLain and simple. Its a game of semantics, not facts. And you B, are falling for that game, hook-line and sinker.
 
191Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:02
How many polls do they have to run to satisfy you?
 
192sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:04
Simple B. I do not for one second, not at al;l, believe that any Doctor whose practice is going well; to give up his/her lucrative career anbd start over doing something in a field unrelated to medicine. IOW, I think its a lie. Its BS, meant to sway the vote.
 
193weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:18
Sarge:
You can stick your head in the sand and keep hoping it wont happen but there will be a weeding out of good doctors and a replacement with less than good doctors.
There is no doubt in my mind that my sister-in-law is overstating/exagerating her findings some, but there also no doubt that there is some truth there as well.
It may not be a mass retirement in 2014 but over time the quality of doctors and care in this country will see a steady decline.
 
194sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:27
Will some leave? Of course. Will many leave? Possibly, but I doubt it. (Many of course, being a relative term to the total nr of practitioners out there.)

But just as I saw otherwise intelligent people doing REALLY stupid things when the calendar rolled over from 1999 to 2000, out of fear of the "Millenium Bug", so too will wee see otherwise intelligent people make some stupid career choices out of fear over what the Health Reform really does.

To me, getting 2,000,000 PLUS people insured, is more valuable to our society than keeping another 138,783 surgeons on the rolls of their local country clubs.
 
195Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 22:05
It says 4 in 9 doctors are considering bolting. 44%.... 360,000 / .44 = 818,182.... This must be the total number of doctors. If the poll results were extrapolated over all doctors, then as many as 360,000 may bolt. Not 113. Not up to 360,000, approximately 360,000. In the neighborhood of 360,000. Not in the neighborhood of 113.
 
196sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 22:07
No B7, it says 4:9 are CONSIDERING bolting. That is why it also says UP TO 360k doctors. I have considered many things in my past, whiwch I did not act upon. Something I think which applies also, to everyone reading this. To say that many are "cocnsidering", is a largely empty numeric.
 
197Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 23:14
Yes. 360,000 are considering bolting, not 113. That's what I said in lower case. Before Obamacare it was probably 113 considering bolting. Great plan that Obamacare.
 
198DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 23:50
Yeah, because literally 0% of doctors were not totally in love with their jobs, considering retirement or changing professions. But now 44% are immediately going into fruit-picking. All because of Obamacare.

Really.

Yeah, OK, that makes perfect sense.


 
199Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 23:56
About half those doctors will be of retirement age anyway--so what is the point, exactly? That they will do so because insurance companies aren't reimbursing them enough?
 
200sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 01:02
re 197...really B7. Are you deliberately being obtuse here? 360k CONSIDER something. How many DO it? I dont give a rats ass, how many of ANY demographic, CONSIDER doing just about ANYTHING.

Wells Fargo Armored Car for ex, has a standard question they ask EVERY applicant. "Have you ever fantasized about robbing an armored car?". If the applicant answers "no", they do not get hired since it is seen as a lie. Virtually EVERYONE has "considered" it at one time or another. SO I honestly, REALLY...DO NOT CARE...how many "consider" leaving the profession. 360k, is a lie, is a falsehood, is a misleading nr, bent and intended to stir fear and panic. It has NOTHING to do with reality.
 
201Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 05:57
As someone who has a bunch of physicians in their immediate and extended family, I can tell you that as a profession, they have a propensity to exaggerate the future state of medicine. Twenty years ago, they claimed HMO's would commodotize physicians and cut pay in half. Pay went up, as it always has. Now some fraction of doctors are moaning about Obamacare. The state of medicine will be fine, as it always has been. There's a reason why physicians from all over the world come here - our physician pay is by far the highest. I am not at all concerned about their not being enough incentive for physicians to practice or that there will be a mass exodus from the profession. They are just empty threats that get thrown around by physicians to scare the public into staying away from touching their (very substantial) pay.

Besides, what exactly does the new health care law do that would affect physician pay? I'm sure if that if there was anything substantial, it would not have passed.
 
202Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 08:47
"To me, getting 2,000,000 PLUS people insured, is more valuable to our society than keeping another 138,783 surgeons on the rolls of their local country clubs." - Sarge

To you making sure we all can't find a doctor who will see us sounds like a good and fair idea.

Perfect description of a socialist and a liberal. They live to spread misery all around.
 
203Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 08:50
Razor

I've met a doctor who quit medicine because they couldn't ethically practice HMO half-measure medicine also.
 
204Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 09:12
And she wasn't exaggerating.
 
205Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 09:35
Besides, what exactly does the new health care law do that would affect physician pay? I'm sure if that if there was anything substantial, it would not have passed. - Razor

Mindblowing that you can't even imagine what is obvious to most of the country. Such is the power of wishful thinking.

Massively increased red tape.

Having your procedures dictated to you by a government computer instead of your expertise and the specific situation.

Having your pay cut [or penalized] if you provide the right care too often instead of the government approved reduced care.

Obama cut medicade by $500 billion over ten years to pay for Obamacare. In budget negotiations he's offering to cut it further. What does he care? That is money that comes out of doctor's pockets, not his.

Reductions in medicade would mean it doesn't matter what doctors bill them, the government is only going to cut a smaller and smaller check.

You think they are going to let doctors exclude those patients? There will be a price to pay for that if it's even doable.
 
206Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 09:57
Boldwin,

Go talk to a doctor or nurse now and see how much independence they have when it comes to what procedures they can perform and in what order. The "free market" insurance companies already place these types of restrictions on doctors.

Standardizing the decisions between all of the insurance companies and Medicare seems like a good method to reduce redtape and costs.

It would also open up a business opportunity for a company to offer insurance with no restictions, but be aware that it would likely be very expensive.
 
207sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 12:47
202....one of the best recent examples of "chicken little", B has provided for our entertainment.
 
208Razor
      ID: 31610612
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 15:13
Re: 205. So just made up stuff then. Good.
 
210Boldwin
      ID: 316571317
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 20:24
Because you've looked into it so much more carefully than I have. As if.

The funny thing is that the outrage of Pelosi saying that 'we needed to pass the bill in order to find out what's in it', was just the tip of the iceberg. It's worse than that. It is written ripe for so much abuse that we won't know the full damage for 5-10 years. We do know they've already cut Medicaid. We do know they've set up the mechanisms for ordering doctor treatments meet federal guidelines and not exceed government spending limits. We do know exactly which panel will order that we don't qualify for medical treatment that used to be available and which treatments won't be available to anyone.
 
212Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 00:51
you've looked into it so much more carefully than I have.

I'm fairly certain you carefully weighed the pros and cons of the legislation for roughly a nanosecond before declaring it a Marxist plot initiated by George Soros and Bill Ayers with the goal of posthumously appointing Saul Alinsky Surgeon General.
 
213Boldwin
      ID: 166451321
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 11:59
I read it more thoroughly than your congressman.
 
214DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 12:13
212 and 213 are probably not mutually exclusive, sad to say.