Forum: pol
Page 3385
Subject: Climate-gate


  Posted by: Boldwin - [26451820] Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 05:45

A telling sign of just how driven off conservatives are from this site, is that the amazing revelations regarding the global warming hoaxsters caught red-handed massively erasing history, manipulating science publication and otherwise making a mockery of science...

...did not even get a thread weeks after the truth came out!

I assume some conservative [or truth-loving non-conservative]...will comment on the hacked e-mails eventually.

I just don't have the energy to post the previous revelations atm but...Now come monumental new revelations from other sources!

 
1Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 05:57
Recently hacked e-mails from the University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit expose a plot to eliminate the Medieval Warm Period, a 400-year era that began around A.D. 1000, the Financial Post's Lawrence Solomon reports.

The warming period is said to have improved agriculture and increased life spans, but scientists at the center of the Climategate e-mail scandal believed the era undermined their goal of spreading concern about global warming as it pertains to today's climate.

Solomon noted the warming period presented a dilemma long before the Climategate e-mail scandal.

A 1995 e-mail predating the recent Climate Research Unit scandal was sent to geophysicist David Deming. A major climate-change researcher told Deming, "We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period."

Some scientists later expressed concern about erasing the period.

One chief practitioner identified as Keith Briffa, said in a Sept. 22, 1999, e-mail, "I know there is pressure to present a nice tidy story as regards 'apparent unprecedented warming in a thousand years or more in the proxy data' but in reality the situation is not quite so simple. … I believe that the recent warmth was probably matched about 1,000 years ago."

Briffa and other scientists, with the help of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, published a well-known symbol of their movement: the hockey stick chart, an illustration reproduced in textbooks, media reports and the pages of the 2001 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, report.

However, the graph showed stable temperatures over the last 1,000 years and omitted any indication of the warming period.

"But the U.N.'s official verdict that the Medieval Warm Period had not existed did not erase the countless schoolbooks, encyclopedias, and other scholarly sources that claimed it had," Solomon wrote. "Rewriting those would take decades, time that the band members didn't have if they were to save the globe from warming."

Instead, the group created a website called RealClimate.org. One e-mail addressed criticism of the hockey stick graph and any suggestions that today's temperatures were not the hottest on record.

"The idea is that we working climate scientists should have a place where we can mount a rapid response to supposedly 'bombshell' papers that are doing the rounds" in aid of "combating dis-information," a Dec. 10, 2004, e-mail to the Climate Research Unit from Gavin Schmidt explained.

The RealClimate.org team consisted of Schmidt, Mike Mann, Eric Steig, William Connolley, Stefan Rahmstorf, Ray Bradley, Amy Clement, Rasmus Benestad and Caspar Ammann.

Solomon revealed that Connolley, one man in the nine-member team who is a U.K. scientist, a software engineer and Green Party activist, took control of Wikipedia's entries to see that any trace of the true climate history would be erased.

Beginning in February 2003, Connolley rewrote Wikipedia entries on global warming, the greenhouse effect, the instrumental temperature record, the urban heat island, on climate models and on global cooling, according to the report. In February, he began editing the Little Ice Age. By August, he began to rewrite history without the Medieval Warm Period. In October, he turned to the hockey-stick chart.

"He rewrote articles on the politics of global warming and on the scientists who were skeptical of the band," Solomon explains. "Richard Lindzen and Fred Singer, two of the world's most distinguished climate scientists, were among his early targets, followed by others that the band especially hated, such as Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, authorities on the Medieval Warm Period."

Through his role as a Wikipedia administrator, Connolley is said to have created or rewritten 5,428 unique Wikipedia entries.

"When Connolley didn't like the subject of a certain article, he removed it – more than 500 articles of various descriptions disappeared at his hand," Solomon wrote. "When he disapproved of the arguments that others were making, he often had them barred – over 2,000 Wikipedia contributors who ran afoul of him found themselves blocked from making further contributions."

Meanwhile, followers who adhered to Connolley's climate views "were rewarded with Wikipedia's blessings," Solomon contends.

Through his control of the Wikipedia pages, Connolley is said to have "turned Wikipedia into the missionary wing of the global warming movement."

Facts about the Medieval Warm Period and criticism of global warming doctrine were purportedly scrubbed from Wikipedia's pages.

"With the release of the Climategate e-mails, the disappearing trick has been exposed," Solomon declared. "The glorious Medieval Warm Period will remain in the history books, perhaps with an asterisk to describe how a band of zealots once tried to make it disappear."

A Wikipedia arbitration committee has stated in the past: "William M. Connolley has, on a number of occasions, misused his administrator tools by acting while involved."

A July 31, 2006, article in the New Yorker described Connolley as a "victim of an edit war over the entry on global warming, to which he had contributed."

"After a particularly nasty confrontation with a skeptic, who had repeatedly watered down language pertaining to the greenhouse effect, the case went into arbitration," the report states.

"User William M. Connolley strongly pushes his POV [point of view] with systematic removal of any POV which does not match his own," his accuser charged in a written deposition. "His views on climate science are singular and narrow."

Connolley said Wikipedia "gives no privilege to those who know what they're talking about."

Just today, Connolley has made edits in numerous Wikipedia entries, including articles titled, "Public opinion on climate change," "Climate," "Scientific opinion on climate change," "RealClimate," " Global cooling," "Climate change" and the biography of scientist William M. Gray, writing that Gray's "views on global warming are controversial."

 
2Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 06:18
A major climate-change researcher told Deming, "We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period."

Anyone care to defend that statement as a scientist doing respectable science?

Could anyone ever trust scientists of that ilk again?

 
3Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 11:06
...did not even get a thread weeks after the truth came out!

any member of this board could have posted this "news", from the most liberal to the most conservative. I know if there's a subject or topic i'm interested in, i'll start a thread.

Now come monumental new revelations from other sources!

what are these sources? any links? your printed material only includes the proverbial unnamed source: A major climate-change researcher told Deming, "We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period."

it's been reported that this "major climate-change researcher" is University of Arizona climate scientist Jonathan Overpeck.

However, Overpeck has denied making this statement.

Overpeck said last week that he had searched through his e-mails dating back a decade, and could find none like Deming referred to. Overpeck pointed out that he has written papers dating to the late 1990s saying that various records, including tree rings, stretching back 1,200 years, confirm earlier assertions that the Medieval period was warmer than today in the North Atlantic and northern Europe — but not globally.

"My papers are the record of fact, and in this case, I obviously did not try to get rid of the MWP," Overpeck said. "Instead, I have tried hard to be clear what it likely was and was not."


the usage of the word "trick" in some of these emails has also been reported, but without context.

as Jeff Schweitzer writes:
"What causes apoplexy among the deniers is the following from (Professor Phil Jones, head of the Climate Research Unit at East Anglia): “…the “trick of adding in the real temps to each series … to hide the decline [in temperature].” Note that Jones is talking about adding in real temperatures; what he is referencing is how to best fit actual data to various models. Nothing more sinister than that, but easy to take out of context if so motivated.

Also, the word “trick” interpreted by critics to mean “deception” is commonly used in science in an entirely different context. A good trick simply implies an elegant shortcut to manage large data sets with no loss of data integrity; or to solve previously complex equations with a simple unifying one. Einstein’s trick was to combine space and time into a single framework. The use of trick here does not imply a grand conspiracy among scientists in black helicopters working furiously to dupe the public.
"

But the bottom line is this:
The stolen emails are nothing but a behind-the-stage look at a few Scientists Gone Wild; in spite of the white coats, scientists are people too, and they say dumb things some times when frustrated just like the rest of us. That in no way undermines the strength of 2500 scientists from 166 countries who conclude unambiguously that climate change is real and caused by human activity. Deniers have no basis on which to claim skepticism if they have not themselves analyzed, and are themselves not qualified to evaluate, the reams of data generated by the climatologists from around the world. To do so implies that the deniers know more than and have greater expertise than professional climatologists.
 
4Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 11:35
The E-mails reveal they [the hacked research group] have people on their own team they keep away from the public because they don't tend to be supportive of the hoax.
 
5CanadianHack
      ID: 19856214
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 11:57
The real question is who hacked the emails and what is their agenda. Why are they not being pursued for their illegal behaviour?

A bunch of emails taken out of context prove nothing significant. All they can hope for is that the hacked emails muddy the waters enough to delay any action that hurts their economic interests.

The case is clear. The earth is heating up. The decade of 2000-2009 is the hottest on record. The polar ice caps are melting. Global climate change is a reality. Human activity is the cause of a significant portion of this - largely through increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Nothing in these hacked emails change that reality.

The hacker(s) should face criminal charges.
 
6Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 11:58
The team members are known. Which ones, exactly, are being "hidden" according to the latest conspiracy theorists, Boldwin? I must admit to not being up on the nuances of this "proof" of a "hoax."

FactCheck is on the case, however.
 
7Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 11:59
RE: 4

I've work directly for DOE or their subcontractors under every president since Reagan, and I can tell you that talking to the press/public in any substantial way without permission was a terminable offense. The bosses always want control of the message. Doesn't matter what it is.
 
8Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:01
One of the alleged emails has a gentle gloat over the death in 2004 of John L Daly (one of the first climate change sceptics, founder of the Still Waiting For Greenhouse site), commenting:
“In an odd way this is cheering news.”
 
9Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:05
The guys there were clearly jerks at times. But such criticism misses the mark.
 
10Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:07
RE: 8

That's just human nature, imperfect as always. I can't tell you how many hours/days/weeks I spent responding to absolutely ridiculous questions from anti-nuke groups. Easily refuted, but going through the bureaucracy made it hard work. If one of the major complainers had croaked while I was there, I'm sure a significant number of my colleagues would have shouted "Woot!". I'd like to think I wouldn't, but I wouldn't miss dealing with him either.
 
11Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:09
I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.

--------------------------------

A good trick simply implies an elegant shortcut to manage large data sets with no loss of data integrity; or to solve previously complex equations with a simple unifying one.

That is just a ridiculous comparison. Yes a 'trick' can be something like physicists normailizing infinities, however they would not claim they were hiding something when they did it.

Also my understanding is that 'the real temps' were from the wrong time period. If so they are not 'really' 'the real temps'.

 
12DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:10
"keep away from the public because they don't tend to be supportive of the hoax."

Um, you do realize people have things called telephones and email and fax machines and smoke signals and paper and the Internet and all sorts of other wonderful methods of communication with which they could happily disclose said information if they so chose. You make it sound as though they're chained up in the dungeon, with thumbscrews and all.

It's hard to take the rest of it seriously after you make a statement like that. But I'll try to address the points you are trying to make in a serious manner.

It is entirely possible that there is a crackpot wing of the scientific community (at that point, I would actually dismiss them from the scientific community entirely and move them into the "goofball activist" section) manipulating data to fit their point of view.

The snippets you posted do not lead inexorably to that conclusion, though. In particular, this first quote "A major climate-change researcher told Deming, 'We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period.'" may be part of a sinister plot. Or it may be part of a well-reasoned scientific position (such as discovery and analysis of additional data) which lead to the conclusion that no such warming in fact occurred. I honestly don't know the answer to that. Honestly, you don't either given one sentence out of an email.

I do know that the anti-science crowd is expert at ignoring massive quantities of scientific research and manipulating the existing data to fit THEIR conclusions, which qualifies as the height of irony given what they are accusing others of doing.

Finally, I would say that if every factual item you actually say in the initial post is correct and basically in context, it STILL does not lead logically to the conclusion that you want it to lead to.



 
14Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:13
I plan to show up a lot here now that we have a policy on Civility and Respect and hopefully can have a fact based discussion.
 
15Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:24
And these choice scientific moments...
Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment – minor family crisis.Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address.We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.

-------------------------------------------

Nexttime I see Pat Michaels at a scientific meeting, I’ll be tempted to beatthe crap out of him. Very tempted.

--------------------------------------------

"It's one thing to lose Climate Research. We can't afford to lose GRL." Another CRU scientist, Tom Wigley, suggests that they target another troublesome editor: "If you think that Saiers is in the greenhouse skeptics camp, then, if we can find documentary evidence of this, we could go through official AGU channels to get him ousted."

-------------------------------------

"I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. K and I will keep them out somehow-even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

For more than a decade, we've been told that there is a scientific "consensus" that humans are causing global warming, that "the debate is over" and all "legitimate" scientists acknowledge the truth of global warming. Now we know what this "consensus" really means. What it means is: the fix is in.

This is an enormous case of organized scientific fraud, but it is not just scientific fraud. It is also a criminal act. Suborned by billions of taxpayer dollars devoted to climate research, dozens of prominent scientists have established a criminal racket in which they seek government money-Phil Jones has raked in a total of £13.7 million in grants from the British government-which they then use to falsify data and defraud the taxpayers. It's the most insidious kind of fraud: a fraud in which the culprits are lauded as public heroes. Judging from this cache of e-mails, they even manage to tell themselves that their manipulation of the data is intended to protect a bigger truth and prevent it from being "confused" by inconvenient facts and uncontrolled criticism.

The damage here goes far beyond the loss of a few billions of taxpayer dollars on bogus scientific research. The real cost of this fraud is the trillions of dollars of wealth that will be destroyed if a fraudulent theory is used to justify legislation that starves the global economy of its cheapest and most abundant sources of energy.

This is the scandal of the century. It needs to be thoroughly investigated-and the culprits need to be brought to justice. - Robert Tracinski

 
16Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:41
The case is clear. The earth is heating up. The decade of 2000-2009 is the hottest on record. - Hack

Like hell.

How many times do I have to prove that there has been no warming in the last ten years?

Der Speigel, by no means a conservative leaning outlet...

"At present, however, the warming is taking a break," confirms meteorologist Mojib Latif of the Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences in the northern German city of Kiel. Latif, one of Germany's best-known climatologists, says that the temperature curve has reached a plateau. "There can be no argument about that," he says. "We have to face that fact."

---------------

"It cannot be denied that this is one of the hottest issues in the scientific community," says Jochem Marotzke, director of the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology in Hamburg. "We don't really know why this stagnation is taking place at this point."

------------------

"I hardly know any colleagues who would deny that it hasn't gotten warmer in recent years." - Hamburg Max Planck Institute scientist Jochem Marotzke

[a lotta negatives there but when you add them all up, he says virtually everyone in the scientific community would admit that it didn't get warmer as predicted - B]

 
17Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:45
It looks more like office politics than massive fraud. Anybody who's worked for a large corporation knows all about it. Ever read "Dilbert"? There's always the guy who's trying to make others look bad just to get ahead. And there's always a group of others trying to bring him down, just to get him out of their hair. There's always the boss making unreasonable requests and employees trying to circumvent them. There are deadlines and shortcut-taking. There are journal editors who just don't like you and won't publish your paper. There are scientists who fantasize about revenge against said editors. There's nothing illegal about it. It all evens out in the end anyway. Expecting "climate scientists" to act like robots is unreasonable.
 
18Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:48
re 8 & 15: as mentioned in post 3 - The stolen emails are nothing but a behind-the-stage look at a few Scientists Gone Wild; in spite of the white coats, scientists are people too, and they say dumb things some times when frustrated just like the rest of us.

re 14: i hope so! the more voices here the better!
 
19DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:54
15: Do you have a point to these out of context snippets? I could imagine circumstances in which any or all of these could be completely reasonable.

And once again, EVEN IF EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS TRUE, you are making the hugely illogical leap from "a subset of people, which is not acting in accordance with scientific norms, is trying to hide evidence which contradicts their beliefs" to "because this subset of people is doing this, it means that all the other evidence must be wrong too".

Which is a blatant logical fallacy, as I'm sure you would be aware if you stopped to think about it logically.
 
21DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:59
Also from the article linked in #16:

"We have to explain to the public that greenhouse gases will not cause temperatures to keep rising from one record temperature to the next, but that they are still subject to natural fluctuations," says Latif. For this reason, he adds, it is dangerous to cite individual weather-related occurrences, such as a drought in Mali or a hurricane, as proof positive that climate change is already fully underway.

"Perhaps we suggested too strongly in the past that the development will continue going up along a simple, straight line. In reality, phases of stagnation or even cooling are completely normal," says Latif.
 
22DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:06
And I'd point out that the Hadley people measuring a relative stagnation (it did actually go up, but after certain "adjustments" it was ) do expect temperatures to start going up against in the next decade.

So, if even the honest ones agree that we're going to have temperature increases in the near future, this article doesn't exactly bolster your claim that it's all a massive hoax.
 
23Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:10
But we've already seen demonstrated that their computer models are not up to the task.
 
24Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:16
No, we've seen that one group's computer models seem to be buggy.

There is no belief that the computer modeling (not the underlying data) is doing anything other than what has been said.
 
25Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:22
Oh sure, show us the link to the working computer model that successfully predicted the last ten years.
 
26Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:25
Once again, solving for the wrong problem.
 
27Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:36
Maybe Connelley made so many changes to the Wikipedia because the climate change deniers are so stubborn in their bomb-throwing. Perhaps he was not erasing "true" climate history, he was erasing lies?
For all its protocol, Wikipedia’s bureaucracy doesn’t necessarily favor truth. In March, 2005, William Connolley, a climate modeller at the British Antarctic Survey, in Cambridge, was briefly a victim of an edit war over the entry on global warming, to which he had contributed. After a particularly nasty confrontation with a skeptic, who had repeatedly watered down language pertaining to the greenhouse effect, the case went into arbitration. “User William M. Connolley strongly pushes his POV with systematic removal of any POV which does not match his own,” his accuser charged in a written deposition. “His views on climate science are singular and narrow.” A decision from the arbitration committee was three months in coming, after which Connolley was placed on a humiliating one-revert-a-day parole. The punishment was later revoked, and Connolley is now an admin, with two thousand pages on his watchlist—a feature that enables users to compile a list of entries and to be notified when changes are made to them. He says that Wikipedia’s entry on global warming may be the best page on the subject anywhere on the Web. Nevertheless, Wales admits that in this case the system failed. It can still seem as though the user who spends the most time on the site—or who yells the loudest—wins.

Connolley believes that Wikipedia “gives no privilege to those who know what they’re talking about,” a view that is echoed by many academics and former contributors, including Larry Sanger, who argues that too many Wikipedians are fundamentally suspicious of experts and unjustly confident of their own opinions. He left Wikipedia in March, 2002, after Wales ran out of money to support the site during the dot-com bust. Sanger concluded that he had become a symbol of authority in an anti-authoritarian community. “Wikipedia has gone from a nearly perfect anarchy to an anarchy with gang rule,” he told me. (Sanger is now the director of collaborative projects at the online foundation Digital Universe, where he is helping to develop a Web-based encyclopedia, a hybrid between a wiki and a traditional reference work. He promises that it will have “the lowest error rate in history.”) Even Eric Raymond, the open-source pioneer whose work inspired Wales, argues that “ ‘disaster’ is not too strong a word” for Wikipedia. In his view, the site is “infested with moonbats.” (Think hobgoblins of little minds, varsity division.) He has found his corrections to entries on science fiction dismantled by users who evidently felt that he was trespassing on their terrain. “The more you look at what some of the Wikipedia contributors have done, the better Britannica looks,” Raymond said. He believes that the open-source model is simply inapplicable to an encyclopedia. For software, there is an objective standard: either it works or it doesn’t. There is no such test for truth.
Know it all.
Bottom line is this, the truth in the science of climatology is certainly a question far more complex than that which is discussed on Wikipedia.
 
28Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:37
As a matter of fact the only ones successfully predicting long term weather have been the solar experts.
Researcher Dr. Timothy Patterson, director of the Geoscience Center at Carleton University, shares the concern. Patterson is finding "excellent correlations" between solar fluctuations, a relationship that historically, he says doesn't exist between CO2 and past climate changes.

--------

In 2005, Russian astronomer Khabibullo Abdusamatov predicted the sun would soon peak, triggering a rapid decline in world temperatures. Only last month, the view was echoed by Dr. Oleg Sorokhtin, a fellow of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences. who advised the world to "stock up on fur coats." Sorokhtin, who calls man's contribution to climate change "a drop in the bucket," predicts the solar minimum to occur by the year 2040, with icy weather lasting till 2100 or beyond.

-----------

Such research dates back to 1991, when the Danish Meteorological Institute released a study showing that world temperatures over the past several centuries correlated very closely with solar cycles. A 2004 study by the Max Planck Institute found a similar correlation, but concluded the timing was only coincidental, as the solar variance seemed too small to explain temperature changes.

However, researchers at DMI continued to work, eventually discovering what they believe to be the link. The key factor isn't changes in solar output, but rather changes in the sun's magnetosphere A stronger field shields the earth more from cosmic rays, which act as "seeds" for cloud formation. The result is less cloud cover, and a warming planet. When the field weakens, clouds increase, reflecting more light back to space, and the earth cools off.

Recently, lead researcher Henrik Svensmark was able to experimentally verify the link between cosmic rays and cloud formation, in a cloud chamber experiment called "SKY" at the Danish National Space Center. CERN plans a similar experiment this year. A few years ago, Stanford University's Hoover Institution also reported finding a correlation between the sun and climate.

Even NASA's Goddard Institute of Space Studies -- long the nation's most ardent champion of anthropogenic global warming -- is getting in on the act. Drew Shindell, a researcher at GISS, says there are some "interesting relationships we don't fully understand" between solar activity and climate.

BTW I quoted the scientists in whatever order I felt like. Just as the author chose to do.

Moderate yourself.

 
29DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:49
So, the guy advising us to stock up on fur coats admits that man-made features do have an effect on global temperatures. Now we're just arguing about how much of an effect, and not whether there is an effect or not.

Thanks.
 
30Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:53
The climate change conspiracy that isn't

My personal opinion is that, like health care, the hysterical shouters on both sides of the issue seem to be dominating the debate.

Talk of a "hoax" is just political posturing. We know the Artic ice and Greenland glaciers are melting at a dangerous pace. We know massive polluting of the atmosphere isn't beneficial to the planet and its inhabitants. We know the planet's population has doubled in the past 50 years, and is likely to continue on such a pace unless some global catastrophe prevents it.

But we also know there is a contingency in the scientific and political communities who are pushing an agenda based on models that are tweeked in favor of seemingly predetermined results.

We'd all be better off if the "global warming is a hoax" crowd and the "global warming is settled science" crowd were quietly retired to the sidelines.
 
31Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 14:02
We'd all be better off if the "global warming is a hoax" crowd and the "global warming is settled science" crowd were quietly retired to the sidelines.

Touché.
 
32DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 14:04
Well stated.

Of course, there are a lot (probably the scientific majority) of people who admit the fact of the next-to-last paragraph, but still acknowledge the existence of the factors in the previous paragraph.

You won't ever hear the "hoax" community talking about the real, objective facts you spelled out, because they don't have a true explanation. They also mistake "some people who are on the side of global warming are acting badly" with "global warming must be a hoax because some of the people that support it are acting badly".

It's an easy mistake to make when one has a predetermined enemy in mind and wants to tear them down in any way possible. In fact, it's the very mistake that the "hoax" crowd accuses the bad-acting scientists of making.
 
33Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 14:20
I first read this article back when it was published in 2002. It made quite an impact on me, making me really wonder if our current climate change is really man's doing. Low and behold, it mentions the Medieval Warm Period, but hell, that is hardly the worst news the Climate Changers were facing:
What the record shows is that it was a period of intense instability. The temperature did not rise slowly, or even steadily; instead, the climate flipped several times from temperate conditions back into those of an ice age, and then back again. Around fifteen thousand years ago, Greenland abruptly warmed by sixteen degrees in fifty years or less. In one particularly traumatic episode some twelve thousand years ago, the mean temperature in Greenland shot up by fifteen degrees in a single decade.

If we go back farther still, the picture is no more comforting. Even as much of Europe and North America lay buried under glaciers, the temperature in Greenland was oscillating wildly, sometimes in spikes of ten degrees, sometimes in spikes of twenty. In an effort to convey the erratic nature of these changes, Richard Alley, a geophysicist who is leading a National Academy of Sciences panel on abrupt climate change, has compared the climate to a light switch being toyed with by an impish three-year-old. (The panel recently issued a report warning of the possibility of "large, abrupt, and unwelcome" climate changes.) He has also likened it to a freakish carnival ride. "Dozens of rapid changes litter the record of the last hundred thousand years," he observed. "If you can possibly imagine the spectacle of some really stupid person (or, better, a mannequin) bungee jumping off the side of a moving roller-coaster car, you can begin to picture the climate."

Obviously, man had nothing to do with those abrupt changes.

Climate history in the ice of Greenland

I think this notion that any questioning climate science is immediately dealt with "extreme prejudice" is ridiculous. This was widely published.
 
34Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 14:39
The article continues and raises some important questions. Even if we are about to enter a climatically unstable time when the tempature of the atmosphere changes rapidly, do you really want to see the effects of adding billions of tons of hydrocarbons into the mix?
I found myself feeling torn as well. On the one hand, Event One did not sound like much to look forward to. On the other, it did seem to offer a certain perverse consolation: global warming versus Event One—either way, things were bound to end badly. I proposed this idea to Steffensen. Unimpressed, he pointed out that, if you believed the climate to be inherently unstable, the last thing you’d want to do is conduct a vast unsupervised experiment on it, and he went on to explain that it would be wrong to think of global warming and Event One as alternatives. It is entirely possible, if apparently paradoxical, that global warming could produce a precipitous cooling, at least in Europe and parts of North America, by, say, shutting down the Gulf Stream. It is also possible that it could push the climate into an unstable mode, leading, especially in the upper latitudes, to a period of wild temperature swings of the sort that characterized the end of the last ice age. Finally, it is possible that we have changed the atmosphere so much—carbon-dioxide levels are approaching those of the age of the dinosaurs—that we will enter a new climate phase altogether. During the Cretaceous period, there were no major ice sheets, or ice ages, and much of the planet was covered with steamy swamps. To the extent that the historical record is any guide, the result of any climate change is unlikely to be a happy one. Steffensen recited to me an old Danish saying, whose pertinence I didn’t entirely understand, but which nevertheless stuck with me. He translated it as “Pissing in your pants will only keep you warm for so long.”
 
35CanadianHack
      ID: 5910412312
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 15:01
Baldwin's out of context quotes in 16 say nothing to contradict the fact that the decade 2000-2009 is the warmest on record (or likely will bhe since its not quite over). Here is a press report of the UN reporting this fact.

The issue being discussed in Baldwin's out of context quotes is shown on the graph on the wikipedia global warming page. 2003 has the largest temperature anomaly on the graph (and hence is by that method the warmest year on record). Hence the world has "cooled" since 2003. We are seeing subsequent years in the top ten warmest years on record, but none surpass 2003. Basically, Baldwin is hiding behindf a spike in the data.

The data clearly shows that 2000-2009 is the hottest decade on record.
 
36CanadianHack
      ID: 5910412312
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 15:21
Baldwin

The problem with attacks like yours is that they do not discuss or even address science. You cannot learn anything about science by quote mining (or by getting WND and the like to quote mine for you). In order to discuss science you have to actually discuss science (and quote mining and hacking email accounts are not science).

Perhaps instead of quote mining, you should try 1) explaining how the greenhouse effect works 2) going to an actual greenhouse and measuring that it is in fact warmer inside one than outside 3) discussing whether or not there are parallels between this and the earth etc...
 
37Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 15:42
"Baldwin's out of context quotes in 16 say nothing to contradict the fact that the decade 2000-2009 is the warmest on record (or likely will bhe since its not quite over). Here is a press report of the UN reporting this fact."

No doubt in my mind that the 10 year period has been one of the warmest yet. Facts are fact. Thats not in question. What *is* in question is this: Why has the past 10 year period been one of the warmest ever?

Is it
-man's best friend?

-Human pollution

-burning of fossil fuels

-Cows passing gas

-A natural cycle of the earth

-Another, as of yet, unexplored theory (I have one which goes a bit further than global: Our orbit is not a perfect circle and is not on a perfect path. How has our relationship to the sun's position changed life on earth?)

I don't know. It just seems like there are too many factors (plausible and not) contributing to this mess.

Until why we're warming up is answered, we cannot move on to fix the problem (if the problem can be fixed. May be a case that is just has to run its natural course and humans will have to adapt).

Personally, I have yet to see any compelling evidence to answer the question of *why* from either side of the fence. Until I do, I'll be conscious of the problem, do my small part to fix it and be open to changing what that small part means.
 
38CanadianHack
      ID: 5910412312
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 15:49
Khahan

Let's accept your premise, as we don't have certainty as to the causes of the warming of the earth (though we have significant understanding of the problem), shouldn't we do what we can to prevent any further changes made that are caused by mankind?

If a problem is recognized it makes more sense to attempt to fix it than to do nothing until we have cetainty about all of its causes.
 
39Frick
      ID: 9103036
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 16:16
I would add one to your list Khahan,

A cyclical change in the sun's output.

Isn't there also an issue of urban areas having a higher temperature on average and the locations of where temperatures are measured historically be coming more urban? Plus hasn't the methodology of taking the temperatures changed (something to do with shade and direct sunlight.)


I would also disagree that we have a significant understanding of the problem.
 
40DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 16:37
Re: 37-- I would go with "all of the above".

Some of which are completely normal and natural things. Some of which are not.

The argument to be decided is how much effect is human-made versus how much is non-human-made.

Re: 39-- Frick, I believe the methodology has changed somewhat, but is universally adjusted for in data analysis.

I'd also note with forehead-slapping obviousness that if urban areas are warmer than non-urban areas, and if NOTHING else changed, the mere fact of increasing population leading to more and more urban areas would result in an overall increase in global temperatures. For the overall global temperature to remain the same, non-urban areas would of necessity have to get colder to compensate.
 
41DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 17:28
Some light reading:

Here is the Wegman report, relied upon the anti-global-warming crowd and by Republicans in Congress to discredit the report by Mann et al, wherein much of the "hockey stick" debate originates.

And here here is a fascinating discussion deconstructing the report, which it should be noted was written by statisticians, not climatologists.
 
42DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 17:32
Re: 39 -- some more light reading here.

Summary: "Not surprisingly, the distribution of adjustment trends is a quasi-normal distribution with peak pretty much around 0 (0 is the median adjustment and 0.017 C/decade is the average adjustment – the planet warming trend in the last century has been of about 0.2 C/decade). In other words, most adjustment hardly modify the reading, and the warming and cooling adjustments end up compensating each other."
 
43DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 17:41
And more light reading concerning the analysis in #42 here, which I have not yet had a chance to fully digest.
 
44Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 17:41
"At present, however, the warming is taking a break," confirms meteorologist Mojib Latif of the Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences in the northern German city of Kiel. Latif, one of Germany's best-known climatologists, says that the temperature curve has reached a plateau. "There can be no argument about that," he says. "We have to face that fact."

The science is clear. What is also clear is that once they get the hysteria ginned up the majority no longer cares what the actual science is.

Just keep handing out the grants to support agenda driven science.

Just keep refering back to completely discredited 'science' such as the hockeystick graph as if it hadn't been debunked.

Just keep intimidating editors from including the real science.

Make sure 'publish or perish' scientists can't find an outlet.

Just erase whatever evidence doesn't support you.

Just keep throwing in numbers from disparate sources until the kalaidascope appears to fall in line. If you look at it from just this angle...

Keep the guys who won't commit to the program away from the mike. Pick your interviewers who are in on the scam...

And most importantly keep quoting the big global governmental structure who stands to gain taxes and real power for the first time ever from the scam as if they were some neutral disinterested party.

 
45DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 17:49
Yeah, I know. And once you stop doing all that, let us know. In the meanwhile, feel free to read the links provided.
 
46DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 17:51
"Just keep refering back to completely discredited 'science' such as the hockeystick graph as if it hadn't been debunked."

You, uh, might want to see who it was that supposedly did the debunking, and their scientific credentials. Conveniently, I gave you a starting point in post 41.
 
47Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 18:05

Climate Change Reconsidered from Diane Bast on Vimeo.

 
48Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 18:32
DWetz

I'm nowhere near done reading all that and doubt you are either, but I love the way your source was forced by Rapp to completely erase his false accusations regarding any possible Rapp/Wegman connection.

 
49DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 18:38
Watching it now. Highly unimpressed. Haven't heard one item to date which actually rebuts any ob the science. LOL, it's a self-promotional video for the Heartland Institute.

I've heard a lot of "oh the politicians are exploiting it" and "waah, I can't get funding for my research" (to which I would respond that there are plenty of organizations which would be more than willing to fund a study). Haven't heard one bit of rebuttal of the actual science.

When you get one of those, get back to me. In fact, I'm turning this off now. Let me know if that actually changes in the last nine minutes of the video.
 
50DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 18:39
48: Which changes about 0% of the overall point, of course. But keep trying.
 
51DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 18:45
Oh, and Dr. Rapp's comments in the comments section are well on par with the choice comments you highlighted in #15. Care to comment on those?
 
52DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 19:00
The good news for B is that there was a correction.

The bad news is that the correction is that Rapp plagiarized Wegman (charitable view: unintentionally--uncharitable view: recklessly or intentionally) instead of the other way around.

So, B, which of the global warming deniers would you like to give up on?
 
53Frick
      ID: 9103036
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 19:28
Re: 42

I'll admit that stats isn't my strongest mathematical area, but the explanation raised more questions than it answered.

Urban areas might be warmer, but that doesn't mean they are contributing to global warming or are a result of global warming. Urban areas reflect and retain heat differently than rural areas. Despite this urban areas still make up an extremely small portion of the Earth. I don't know what percentage of the Earth is considered urban, but the Earth is 75% water. I doubt that any significant portion of the remaining 25% is urban. But does it make sense to same the temperature on the entire planet is rising if the majority of the data you are analyzing is an outlier to the whole?

 
54DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 19:56
This is accounted for in the data. It's generally assumed that the temperature between two temperature reading centers is an "average" (more like a weighted average based on distance) of the temperatures at those two centers. Obviously, it's impossible to have temperature sensors at every point on the globe at all times.

To give an extremely poor example which will nonetheless illustrate the point, suppose the only two reading centers in North Dakota are at the far east and far west of the state. If the temperature at one end is 60 degrees and at the other end it's 50 degrees, the temperature in the middle of North Dakota would be extrapolated to 55 degrees.

That's a pretty poor estimate, but it gets to be a very good estimate if you add temperature sensors every 50 miles along the way. As the distances between the temperature centers gets closer together, those estimates become more and more accurate.

As I understand it, part of the adjustments that are made to the data covers the urban heat island effect. Again, to give a very poor but illustrative example, let's say that there are seven temperature centers that run east to west across the center of Ohio. The middle one is located in Columbus; the other six are located in rural areas which would not be expected to be affected by urban heat islands.

If our temperature readings at the seven reading centers, averaged over thousands of readings, are:

22 - 22.2 - 22.3 - 23.4 - 22.5 - 22.7 - 22.8, then one of two things is happening:

1. The urban heat of Columbus is causing a 1 degree increase in temperature at that fourth station, or

2. Something else environmental is.

Generally what is done is to investigate if there is any natural environmental effect which would magically cause Columbus to be a degree warmer (perhaps by taking additional readings in rural areas between stations 3 and 4 and between 4 and 5, including right on the edge of the urban area to minimize the urban heat island). If there isn't any obvious reason, then the data for the Columbus station would be knocked downward by 1 degree, including for future readings, to reflect the effect of the urban area on that station.

Unfortunately, before approximately 1990, the standards for maintaining temperature stations were not exactly up to par. There were a number of examples of stations either sitting in the middle of a blacktop parking lot, or becoming closed in by new construction or tree growth to the point of being almost meaningless. A lot of the data from those stations has been discarded completely. In other cases, it's possible using a similar technique to the example above to extrapolate the unnatural effects of the local environment on the temperatures--and this is exactly what is done.

It is the sum total of these adjustments which is examined in the link in post 42, to determine if there is an unnatural bias in the data (and notably, if the adjustments themselves are leading to the reported increase in temperatures).
 
55Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 20:04
Seventeen hours is all you get outta me boss. I'm punchin out.
 
56DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 20:06
The link in post 43 provides an overview of the adjustments made as they relate to time. Notably, (see author's comment in response to 12/13 3:52 PM post), the data adjustments from approximately 1990-2006 adjust the reported temperature DOWNWARD.

Let that sink in for a minute.

The scientists, "who are all in on the global warming hoax", are making adjustments which LOWER their finally-reported temperature relative to what the raw data shows.
 
57DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 20:06
Re: 55--we'll expect your book report later in the week.
 
58Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 20:52
No need to hold your breath.

To summarize what DWetz and I am discussing for those without 17 hours a day to follow this stuff...

In 1995 the UN published this chart of global temperatures...

But then they turned a 180.

In 1999 they began pushing a chart by Mann that completely erased the 'Medieval warming period', the 'little ice age' and then he turned a neat little trick. He tacked on heat island corrupted modern 'real' data onto tree ring data that generated estimates for earlier periods before modern weather recording, to generate the appearance of a crisis.

At that point, Mann completed the coup and crudely grafted the surface temperature record of the 20th century (shown in red and itself largely the product of urban heat islands) onto the pre-1900 tree ring record. The effect was visually dramatic as the 20th century was portrayed as a climate rocketing out of control. The red line extends all the way to 1998 (Mann's `warmest year of the millennium'), a year warmed by the big El Niño of that year. It should be noted that the surface record is completely at variance with the satellite temperature record [20]. Had the latter been used to represent the last 20 years, the effect would have been to make the 20th century much less significant when compared with earlier centuries.

As a piece of science and statistics it was seriously flawed as two data series representing such different variables as temperature and tree rings simply cannot be credibly grafted together into a single series.

In every other science when such a drastic revision of previously accepted knowledge is promulgated, there is considerable debate and initial scepticism, the new theory facing a gauntlet of criticism and intense review. Only if a new idea survives that process does it become broadly accepted by the scientific peer group and the public at large.

This never happened with Mann's `Hockey Stick'. The coup was total, bloodless, and swift as Mann's paper was greeted with a chorus of uncritical approval from the greenhouse industry. Within the space of only 12 months, the theory had become entrenched as a new orthodoxy.

The ultimate consummation of the new theory came with the release of the draft of the Third Assessment Report (TAR-2000) [11] of the IPCC. Overturning its own previous view in the 1995 report, the IPCC presented the `Hockey Stick' as the new orthodoxy with hardly an apology or explanation for the abrupt U-turn since its 1995 report. They could not even offer any scientific justification for their new line.

Within months of the IPCC draft release, the long-awaited draft U.S. `National Assessment' Overview document featured the `Hockey Stick' as the first of many climatic graphs and charts in its report, affirming the crucial importance placed in it by the authors and by the industry at large. This is not an esoteric theory about the distant past, marginal to the global warming debate, but rather is a core foundation upon which a new publicity offensive on global warming is being mounted.

Two issues are raised by Mann's `Hockey Stick'.

1) Why did the climate community fail to critically review the validity of the new theory, indeed to uncritically embrace it in its entirety?

2) Is any of it true? Or is it a means of disposing of the inconvenient Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age, and thus avoid the problem of the role of the sun in climate history?

Here is the real science that the Mann graph attempted to cover up.

But how likely were you to be informed of the real science? Not very...

He is now the Lead Author of the `Observed Climate Variability and Change' chapter of the IPCC Third Assessment Report (TAR-2000), and a contributing author on several other chapters of that report. The Technical Summary of the report, echoing Mann's paper, said: "The 1990s are likely to have been the warmest decade of the millennium, and 1998 is likely to have been the warmest year."

Mann is also now on the editorial board of the `Journal of Climate' and was a guest editor for a special issue of `Climatic Change'. He is also a `referee' for the journals Nature, Science, Climatic Change, Geophysical Research Letters, Journal of Climate, JGR-Oceans, JGR-Atmospheres, Paleo oceanography, Eos, International Journal of Climatology, and NSF, NOAA, and DOE grant programs. (In the `peer review' system of science, the role of anonymous referee confers the power to reject papers that are deemed, in the opinion of the referee, not to meet scientific standards).

He was appointed as a `Scientific Adviser' to the U.S. Government (White House OSTP) on climate change issues.

Mann lists his `popular media exposure' as including - "CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, CNN headline news, BBC, NPR, PBS (NOVA/FRONTLINE), WCBS, Time, Newsweek, Life, US News & World Report, Economist, Scientific American, Science News, Science, Rolling Stone, Popular Science, USA Today, New York Times, New York Times (Science Times), Washington Post, Boston Globe, London Times, Irish Times, AP, UPI, Reuters, and numerous other television/print media" [17].

Mann's career highlights a serious problem with the modern climate sciences, namely the `star' system where high-profile scientists are promoted swiftly to influential positions in the industry. Such a star system reduces a science to the level of Hollywood.

Thus you are left the victim of a circular argument. Mann can't be wrong because dissenting scientific papers can't pass the peer review process that Mann has his thumb on.

And all you really need to know, to be sure he's seriously and deliberately misleading the world is to look at the UN's previous graph that I started the post with.

 
59DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 21:24
I think it is inaccurate to call that a "summary". To do so completely dismisses the other evidence.

Again with the "nobody can get published" garbage. If it's a valid argument, put it up on the Internet and let the world pick it apart. If it's not crap, it'll hold up. Seriously. Drop that worthless line of argument, it discredits you.
 
60DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 21:49
link

This is much closer to the accepted consensus on past global temperature--a fact which I think even Mann would readily concede at this point. You'll carefully note both the existence of the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age, as well as the end of century peak of temperatures well above the temperatures of the MWP. In other words, neither the original hockey stick nor Daly's graph are anywhere near where the current body of scientific evidence brings us.

Of course, it isn't the least bit curious that Daly reports on outdated versions of the science. He's been dead for nearly six years. It's fairly understandable that he hasn't bothered to read through the latest research.

Next up, in Gaming and Entertainment--an infallible study titled The Silent Film--Is It Here To Stay?
 
61Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 02:17
It's an art, not a science.

"Global Warming Art"

And the hilarious part is that part of the time that they claim we were on that exponentially rising part of the hockey stick, the globalists were trying to tell is that we were headed for an ice age and we had to dooooo something. Because it was so exponential and obvious, don't you know.

 
62DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 09:54
Do you have any meaningful, current data to dispute the existing data, or are you just going to make ad hominem attacks against the scientists and make snarky remarks?

Because if you don't have any meaningful data to add, you really ought to just concede on this one.
 
63biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 09:58
It's pretty easy to mock other people's life work when there is uncertainty, isn't it Baldwin. Kinda fun?

Unfortunately, if they are right, we are likely extinct as a species.

I know. I know. This fits in well with the Rapturist's (I will refrain from calling them death-cultists) dreams, but the rest of us kinda like this hot mamma I affectionately call Earth.

There were only a small minority of scientists who believed in global cooling in the 70s. Nothing like the consensus that exists now.
 
64WiddleAvi
      ID: 895017
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 00:18
Boldwin - Lets just say there is a 5% chance that global warming is true. If we just ignore it and do nothing we are in deep trouble. Is it worth making changes for that 5% chance ? If global warming is wrong than we just created a cleaner planet. If global warming is true then maybe we just saved the planet. Just curious, Boldwin, what percentage would you put on global warming possibly being true ?
 
65jedman
      Dude
      ID: 315192219
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 10:34
I guess my problem is at what cost? What are we going to do to
spend less someplace else so we can afford to spend whatever
we might have to on global warming issues?
I just don't think we can afford to do everything that is
worthwhile, good and decent unless we take some money away
from someplace else. Are there an infinite amount of dollars out
there that we can just keep adding programs and projects to our
hearts' content?
How much of our money does the government eventually expect
us to give them to pay for all these wonderful programs and
activities?
Unless there is someplace to cut, I'm willing to take my chances
for now that we can survive global warming a little longer. Let's
get other things in order and then go ahead and attack it some
more.
 
66walk
      ID: 291046510
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 10:59
I think what Friedman says that Denmark did is something we ought to at least consider...
 
67Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 11:16
The complaints about the economic cost of fighting climate change remind me of the same complaints from the American auto industry. When there was a push to legislate more fuel efficiency, the automakers claimed the costs would put them out of business and defeated the legislation. Flash forward to 2009 and it turns out that if they had bit the bullet in the 80's, they probably wouldn't have had to be bailed out by the feds (read "us") this year and thousands of workers would still be contributing to society.

I'm afraid the rest of the world will get too big a jump on us on carbon control technologies and implementations. It's possible that once again, American workers and taxpayers will be paying more to catch up than we would have payed to take the lead in the first place.
 
68DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 11:53
The perfect response to #65:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/science/15tier.html?fta=y

Summary: carbon taxes, with the actual temperatures going forward determining the rate.
If the global warming people are wrong about all of this, and temperatures level off, then the carbon taxes will be non-existent. The higher the heat gets, the higher the tax gets, and we have a mechanism in place to stop it.
 
69jedman on iPhone
      ID: 320442118
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 12:05
DWetzel, thanks. Somebody with some common sense. Have
to read in more detail but first read it makes sense.
 
70DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 12:11
Actually, there is a catch to it, and it's a reasonable objection--it presumes that temps would go up as a result of the carbon emissions.

Since there is a subset of the global warming denialist crowd which doesn't believe that the carbon emissions have any effect, they would argue (consistently, at least) that we're taxing something that has nothing to do with the reason why temps are going up.

I think they're wrong, but the argument's there.
 
71Boldwin
      ID: 91132418
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 19:05
Just curious, Boldwin, what percentage would you put on global warming possibly being true?

I'd put it at 50%. It's either raising or lowering all the time. Always has, always will.

OOOOH, you mean anthropic global warming.

I'd say there is less than 1% chance that man induced effects are having any significant contribution. Anything man is doing is far and away swamped by both what the sun dishes out in the way of variability as well as the planet's ability to roll with those natural variations.

No time today for this but you might want to investigate part of the thread the AGW crowd is hanging by. Part of their hockey-stick crutch rests on the cherry-picked tree rings of just three Russian trees, to the exclusion of all other more comprehensive studies [not to mention, other trees in that grove].

With that slender reed 'we' are about to topple nations.
 
72Boldwin
      ID: 91132418
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 19:36
And why, why you say?

We just had an 11 year freak of nature lack of sun-spots. Lack of this solar activity for 70 years is what is called the Maunder Minimum and is what caused the 'Little Ice Age' that Mann and fellow AGW *cough* 'proponents' are trying so hard to ignore.

So we are 1/7 of the way to a little ice age, not GW. Now I am not saying we will roll the same thing for the next 6 sun cycles, but that is where we should be looking. Unless the sun reverses it's current trend, the AGW proponents will end up with egg on their face.

...and on the otherhand the odds that AGW is significant is virtually nil.

I'm not saying the MSM will report it but that's the way it is and those with common sense will know it.
 
73DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 20:40
So, if we're 1/7 of the way to a little ice age, why haven't temperatures dropped significantly?

Could something perhaps, just possibly, be counteracting that?

Or perhaps, since sunspots are by their very nature cyclical, when they do start up again in a year or two, temperatures will shoot up more than ever?

400 years of Sunspot Measurements Show me where the impending Maunder minimum is.
 
74Boldwin
      ID: 91132418
      Thu, Dec 24, 2009, 23:26
For one thing it's in the length of the current cycle which is very hard to make out in that graph but it is exceptional.
 
75WiddleAvi
      ID: 895017
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 00:48
Boldwin - I find it interesting that you fully accept scientific evidence that supports your viewpoint and so easily dismiss any evidence that goes against it.
 
76jedman
      Dude
      ID: 315192219
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 08:49
Can't the same be said of those who accept the science that there
is Global Warming caused by humans but do not accept that which
disputes it?
 
77Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 09:03
Boldwin - I find it interesting that you fully accept scientific evidence that supports your viewpoint and so easily dismiss any evidence that goes against it. - Widdle

I find it interesting that you totally discount the 30,000+ scientists who have put their career at risk by sticking to the truth and and the actual evidence...

...while holding on to your respect for scientists caught in the act of rigging the research, rigging the peer review process, massively evading the release of their own data for scientific review, destroying data rather than releasing it, vindictively sabotaging careers of those who do not agree with them...

...not to mention your regard for people like Algore, who is heavily invested finacially in the success of AGW story and the head of the UN IPCC who is personally heavily invested financially in seeing AGW succeed as a meme, as well as institutionally invested as a UN leader seeking power for global government.

 
78WiddleAvi
      ID: 895017
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 10:23
jedman - You are probably right. It just seems to be that Boldwin is more closed off to opposing side. He has his viewpoint and there is nothing the other side could show him that will change his mind.
 
79DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 10:45
"I find it interesting that you totally discount the 30,000+ scientists who have put their career at risk by sticking to the truth and and the actual evidence..."

See, this is why you're impossible to even have a rational discussion with. Blind (often deliberately blind) faith in what you are spoon-fed by others has dulled your critical thinking to the point of total uselessness. You remind me very much of this Family Guy snippet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znowCx_y7nU (you are the one on the right).

Oh, and that video is LOL-bad as far as the science goes.
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 11:00
Timeout!

Shall we pause for a brief interlude?

A reverie?

Ever-so-good!

Say! Where are the cakes? The dainty cakes? Where are they?

 
81Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 11:11
Back to the fray!

Blind (often deliberately blind) faith in what you are spoon-fed by others - DWetz

Let us not forget which of us is the one blindly going along with the popular zeitgeist and which of us is always out on a limb alone.

 
82DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 11:13
"Can't the same be said of those who accept the science that there
is Global Warming caused by humans but do not accept that which
disputes it?"

Some of them, almost certainly yes. On a pure percentage basis, I would suggest the ratio is way lower.

The major difference is, among people who are capable of trying to understand it, you will find a greater number of people attacking the science of the anti-GW crowd. You will find a greater percentage of the anti-GW crowd attacking the PEOPLE on the other side (see, e.g., post #15 in this very thread), or attacking the PROCESSES by which things like grants are awarded (see: post #44), conveniently ignoring the fact that in general, the RAW DATA is readily available (see the investigations done in posts #41-43), collected on a very frequent basis from outposts around the globe .

If there's a problem with the science, it isn't that mean people are doing it. It's that:

1. The raw data is physically corrupted somehow. There is something wrong with the collection process (e.g. people are using miscalibrated thermometers).

2. The adjustments (such as I tried to illustrate in post #54) are invalid for various scientific reasons. Clearly, there is a potential element for corruption there. Of course, the adjustments themselves are readily available (see: posts 42 and 43), and if someone wants to try to justify a different set of adjustments, they're welcome to do it.

3. They're are investigating things that don't necessarily correlate with the conclusion they are trying to draw. Which could theoretically be the case, and if there is to be a halt global warming in the near future this would be the likely reason, but I don't think it is, ramblings about sunspots notwithstanding. (It's entirely possible, even likely, that sunspot activity has an impact on the Earth's atmosphere. But to state that does not at all discount the possible influence of other factors.)
 
83DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 11:17
"Let us not forget which of us is the one blindly going along with the popular zeitgeist and which of us is always out on a limb alone. "

That's because most of the time, like this one, you're flat out wrong. Most of us that you put in "the popular zeitgeist" have taken a look at the limb you're out on and find it rotted, teeming with structural defects, and unable to support the weight of the balance of facts.

And I'll thank you kindly to not insult me in the future by assuming that I haven't looked at your "evidence". I have. It's just bad science for the most part.
 
84Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 11:28
Ditto right back at ya. Let us just agree to disagree and walk away shaking our heads wondering why the other can't see the obvious truth. At least for today.

Have a cake, a dainty cake.

 
85PV in SoCal
      ID: 41132217
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 13:34
wondering why the other can't see the obvious truth.

There is no obvious truth. There is ongoing research which continues to reveal certain possibilities as to the effects of billions upon billions of tons of greenhouse gasses being released into the atmosphere.

there is less than 1% chance that man induced effects are having any significant contribution. Anything man is doing is far and away swamped by both what the sun dishes out in the way of variability as well as the planet's ability to roll with those natural variations.

This is pure guessing by a layman. Obvious truth has nothing to do with your biased opinion. How could you or anyone possibly know about the planet's ability to roll with those natural variations when never in history has the planet been exposed to such an unnatural onslaught since the industrial age of the past 150 years and accelerated in the past 50?



 
86Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 15:54
not to mention your regard for people like Algore, who is heavily invested finacially in the success of AGW story and the head of the UN IPCC who is personally heavily invested financially in seeing AGW succeed as a meme...

since you obviously see this as some sort of conflict of interest, i'm curious as to your thoughts on Glenn Beck as a spokesman for a gold company, all the while causing fear regarding the value of the dollar and promoting the investment in gold.
 
87Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 18:35
If that thot makes you pause and reconsider purchasing gold, go for it...or don't go for the gold in this case.

Beck needs sponsors and the NWF probably won't apply. If you think Beck is taking that position because his sponsor pays him, run off with the good news to the DNC.

Does Algore needs sponsors? Why does the head of the IPCC need to make a killing in the field he is involved with governmentally?

 
88Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 18:37
But an interesting point anyway, Tree.
 
89Boldwin
      ID: 201172522
      Fri, Dec 25, 2009, 23:08
"If you think Beck is taking that position because his sponsor pays him, run off with the good news to the DNC."

Last I heard tho the DNC had completely given up on advertising on Fox. Zero response. And I doubt Beck will start touting Dems just because they advertise on his show.
 
90Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 17:03
Second expert panel shows "ClimateGate" was a ClimateSham

An independent panel of experts in the United Kingdom has released a report finding there to be, "no evidence of any deliberate scientific malpractice in any of the work of the Climatic Research Unit and had it been there we believe that it is likely that we would have detected it."
 
91Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 17:20
All That proves is that the experts were part of the
conspiracy!

If you can handle the truth, we need to look to amatuer
wingnuts with a grudge and Armageddon dreams.
 
92Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 17:36
damn that Jeremy Piven!

it's all his fault!
 
93boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 11:28
looks like they were merely guilty of bad science:

The panel did express considerable surprise at the fact that the unit did not collaborate closely with professional statisticians. This is despite the fact that their work was “basically all statistics”, as one member of the panel, statistician David Hand, of Imperial College, London, put it. The report found that the CRU scientists would, had they been more statistically au fait, have done some things differently. The panel doubted that better methods would have materially changed the results.
 
94Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 13:54
Climategate whitewash

Climategate scientists cleared of wrongdoing” read the headline in yesterday’s Post. Who expected anything else? The two self-inquiries launched by the University of East Anglia into its Climatic Research Unit (CRU) were always destined to produce whitewashes, as did a recent UK parliamentary inquiry, and as will an “independent” review by the UN.

The first of the UEA reports, from a committee headed by ardent warmist and anti-carbon profiteer Lord Oxburgh, appeared this week. As Lawrence Solomon points out elsewhere on this page, the choice of Lord Oxburgh indicated that the fix was always in for an inquiry which fails to address, let alone probe, most of the major issues. And yet there is a mountain of condemnation-by-faint-exoneration between the lines of the report’s ridiculously slim five pages.

Its attempt to present CRU head Phil Jones, and his beleaguered band, as unworldly boffins who were blindsided by all this attention is ridiculous. The report claims that it found a “small group of dedicated if slightly disorganised researchers.” The key question is: dedicated to what? Certainly, they weren’t expecting to be outed quite so spectacularly, but to paint them as innocents in the big bad world of climate realpolitik is nonsense.

After reviewing a cherry-picked group of eleven CRU studies, the report gently raps the knuckles of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC, for failing to note the reservations that CRU researchers so assiduously attached to their peer-reviewed work. “All of the published work was accompanied by detailed descriptions of uncertainties and accompanied by appropriate caveats,” notes the report.

Global warming alarmists relentlessly chant that there is scientific “consensus” that the “science is settled.” Yet now we are told that somehow the main body for promoting the climate change agenda “neglected” to tell the world that the science wasn’t settled. What we are not told is that the scientists who removed the caveats in the IPCC reports were lead IPCC authors Mr. Jones and his CRU colleague Keith Briffa!

 
95Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 18:40
“small group of dedicated if slightly disorganised researchers.”

The dog ate my research. Still good enuff to be taken as a scientific leading light in some circles.
 
96Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 19:12
And this commentary:
In the end, the panellists published hardly anything at all — a mere five pages of observations that explore not a single charge made by CRU’s accusers, and thus, in truth, do nothing to absolve CRU or to allay public concerns.
Whitewash of the scam led by:
Lord Oxburgh of Liverpool, a man of impeccable credentials in the climate change field. Lord Oxburgh is chair of the multinational Falck Renewables, a European leader with major windfarms in the U.K., France, Spain and Italy, and he’s chair of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association, a lobby group which argues that carbon capture could become a $-trillion industry by 2050.
It is inconceivable that a man of such impeccable credentials might have a personal bias in favor of AGW restructuring of the economy.

Tho the AGW scam is well and truly dead and the public knows it, the power elite have a longstanding fascination with reanimating the dead.
 
97DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 21:41
"Tho the AGW scam is well and truly dead and the public knows it"

*facepalm*

You can (based on repeated observations) keep repeating lies. It's what you do best. But that doesn't make them true.
 
98Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 12:08

Hide The Decline II from No Cap And Trade Coalition on Vimeo.

" target="_blank">video poking fun at Dr. Michael Mann and Climategate
 
99Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 12:24
Jim Manzi @ National Review Online rips a new one for Mark Levin's massive pile, LIBERTY AND TYRANNY
 
100Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 13:25
Who are they? An associate professor of astrophysics, a geologist, and an astronaut.

Being at NASA didn't stop the leading AGW hoaxer in the world, James Hansen from having an opinion.

BTW Hansen's former boss says Hansen is full of beans.

But he says that these are just examples:

There are so many experts who reject the notion of man-made global warming and the historical claims about carbon dioxide they are too numerous to list here.

He goes on to cite a petition “rejecting the theory of human-caused global warming” sponsored by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine and signed by more than 31,000 scientists. There are a few problems with this survey that Levin doesn’t mention. More than 20,000 of these “scientists” lack PhDs in any field.


A) 11,000 PHD's is not inconsiderable.

B) Does Manzi do a similar study of the climatologist PHD's on the IPCC? Of course not because they were mainly not climate scientists.

 
101Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 13:31
The irony about Manzi's column is that there are some who will claim he's not a real conservative, when it's really Levin who's not a real conservative in my mind.

Might as well call Levin a hoaxter while we're at it.
 
102Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 13:38
Well I would in fact say that around the time Buckley retired and the NR started pushing neoconservatives I would indeed say they are sucking the oxygen out of the room for real conservatives.
 
103Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 13:38
He's already getting a lot of blowback from other club members, as Daniel Larison at American Conservative Mag points out. All the responses I've seen from the echo chamber bemoan the fact that a conservative is criticism another member of the Tribe.
 
104Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 13:54
Rich Lowry is a neoconservative? What does that make Coulter, a real neoconservative? And Levin never once criticized the Cheney/Wolfowitz cabal either. You're Monday Morning quarterbacking. All your so-called real conservative heroes were behind the neoconservatives all the way.
 
105Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 14:44
Yes, Coulter is the real deal. She was so opposed to McCain she would have voted for Hillary instead.

Levin is real deal as well but he isn't as willing to buck the 'official version of events' as he should be.

That the Bush dynasty is as globalist and in the long-term against the survival of America a nation state as Obama is, is just not something he can wrap his mind around yet, let alone explain to the republican mainstream.
 
106Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 14:46
BTW Rush was just livid when McCain won the primary.
 
107Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 10:23
Yes, Coulter is the real deal. She was so opposed to McCain she would have voted for Hillary instead.

Her opposition to McCain doesn't negate her support for the neoconservative agenda in

2004

COULTER: I've been looking up what they were saying before the war and the point that was made over and over again by [Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul] Wolfowitz, you know, "the crazed, have to go after Iraq," I mean, he said that the rebuilding is going to be long and hard. He said we don't know if he has nukes. He could have them in three years, six, 10 years we're not waiting. We don't want to wait. That's what the argument was. It has been so recast that you forget what the argument was, you know, a year and a half ago.

And as recently as
2010.


I think the war in Iraq was a very important war. We needed a foothold in the Middle East. We needed to knock out a guy who, whether we can find the stockpiles now, was certainly intent on developing weapons of mass destruction, who tried to assassinate a former president of the United States, who had Al Qaeda in his country.

And in particular to have a democracy someplace in that godforsaken region of the world so the rest of the Arab dictators can't say the reason you're living in the dirt is because of the great Satan and because of Israel.

What we needed and what we have in Iraq is an Arab Israel, and that is incredibly important, and we will be enjoying the benefits of that I hope for the rest of our lifetimes as long as the current president doesn't blow it.

Yes, I think Iraq was an important war to fight, and I think we're enjoying the benefits of it now. Thank you, George Bush.


Thank you, George Bush. Yep, sounds like someone who thinks the Bush dynasty is as globalist and in the long-term against the survival of America a nation state as Obama is.

Almost comically, Coulter has named Ron Paul as her choice for President in 2012. Is that because he's suddenly popular among more mainstream conservatives, or is she simply being sarcastic? After all, she's supported superhawk Duncan Hunter, who is the antithesis of Ron Paul, and never gave him the time of day in 2008.


This video from CPAC pretty much sums up the fraud that Ann Coulter is the real deal.
 
108Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 18:36
Conservatives have always been conflicted between the FF's warning against foreign entanglements, and compassion for those suffering under intolerable oppression.

Deal with it.

I suppose Obama would have bowed to the leader who made an assassination attempt on his father were that possible.
 
109Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 18:47
Ah yes that rare breed of poor tortured, conflicted bleeding
heart conservative.

"I only killed or destoyed the lives of those 100,000 people
because I couldn't stand the sight of them being oppressed!"

I'd laugh but for the tears I shed for the pain this might cause
my conflicted and sensitive conservative brother.
 
110Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 21:01
Deal with it.

I did deal with it. You dissed the neocons and the Bush globalists while worshipping Coulter, who praises Bush and fully supports the neocon agenda. It's you aren't dealing with it.
 
111Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 22:10
A) Saddam tortured to death that many Iraqis before breakfast so don't tell me how you care about Iraqis.

B) Ann Coulter is incompatible with neoconservatives, which both she and neocons are well aware of.
 
112Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 01:09
don't tell me how you care about Iraqis

Funny you should say that, since I've been working on a historical manuscript titled "There Is No Kurdistan" covering the plight of the Kurdish people from 1918 to 2006, and many Kurds are Iraqis. My brilliant cousin Gary Wood is helping with research. His latest historical manuscript, soon to be published, is "John Marsh: Lost Father of California." I can forward it to you if you like.

Ann Coulter is incompatible with neoconservatives, which both she and neocons are well aware of."

Dorothy Rabinowitz and Arnold Beichman? Yeah, those are the first names that people recall when they think neoconservative. Book reviewers. You really had to dig to find that one.




 
113Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 11:07
That is SOOOO not funny because Saddam deported as many Kurds as he could to the south of his country and then made it a capitol offense for anyone to save them from starvation. Over a million Kurds starved to death. When they weren't being bombed with poison gas.

The only reason Kurds in Iraq have any hope at all is due to the USA.

And you want to pretend to be a friend to the Kurds?
 
114Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 12:34
I'm not pretending anything. I'm writing a historical account, which includes the things you say, but you're so vicious like your idol Coulter that it's incumbent on you to attempt to paint me into something false and malicious. Please document when and where over a million Kurds starved to death. My research is extensive, so any "facts" you present will be helpful, if they are indeed facts. The highest estimates I've been able to uncover, ranging from the Baath takeover in 1963 until 1991 when UN Security Council Resolution 688 was enacted, is about half a million killed by all means, not just starvation., mostly during the Anfal campaign. This doesn't include the thousands more who perished in Iran and Turkey.

While you're at it, let's see some quotes from Ann Coulter condemning the neoconservative agenda since you claim Ann Coulter is incompatible with neoconservatives, which both she and neocons are well aware of. Instead, you've made a feeble attempt to distort the record by attacking me about Iraq, and now the plight of the Kurds, which is a story that is just as much about Turkey and Iran as Iraq.

So to clear the record, we're talking about Ann Coulter and her support for the neoconservative agenda, even though you want to turn it into some sort of criticism of me - And you want to pretend to be a friend to the Kurds?

You're arguing with yourself and making up numbers at the same time.
 
115Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 12:50
Postscript to #112 and 114:

When I mentioned I was attempting a manuscript about the Kurds from 1918 to 2006, I rather expected comments like,

"That's quite a project. Good luck."

Not..

"you want to pretend to be a friend to the Kurds? "

Really, you whine about people not being fair to you and other conservatives, yet you take most any opportunity to be insulting and obstinate. If you want to complain about the tone of this forum, I suggest you start with your own disposition.

 
116Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:05
Where were your cheers when the Kurds were freed from Saddam's genocide?
 
117Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:08
And yes, I well aware Turkey is nearly as genocidal in disposition towards the Kurds as Saddam was, and the historical record of their actual genocide.
 
118Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:18
Where were your cheers when the Kurds were freed from Saddam's genocide?

This forum didn't exist in 1991. I was barely aware of the Kurds prior to 2003, when I began to study their history and circumstances. If you wish to find posts from 2004 and beyond, you'll find numerous from me promoting an independent Kurdish state.

But what's the relevance with that and your insulting, condescending comments?

you want to pretend to be a friend to the Kurds?

Cut you a deal. I won't say things like you want to pretend you're a real conservative and you don't tell me what I pretend to be.



 
119Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:26
In 1988 alone the anfal campaign killed upwards of 300K Kurds. Granted that was the worst year but the campaign lasted for decades.

In the late 80's over a million Kurds were 'relocated' meaning dropped off and left to starve to death since it was illegal to employ, feed, or give them shelter.

There were literal concentration camps.

But all I hear is moaning that they were saved, as tragically late as the world's attention was.
 
120Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:27
All I ever heard here was disapproval.
 
121Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:30
That's because you don't listen very well, if at all.
 
122Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:34
I'll cut you a deal. The next time liberals tell the board what a tragedy Bush going to Iraq was, and that 100,000 Iraqis lives are on Bush's hands, tell them that several million Kurds were saved from total genocide and I'll pat you on the back.

[not to mention the oppressed Shia majority who were saved from unbelievable attrocities]
 
123Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:45
I don't know any liberals who falsely cap that number at 100,000, for the record.
 
124Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:50
The next time liberals tell the board what a tragedy Bush going to Iraq was, and that 100,000 Iraqis lives are on Bush's hands, tell them that several million Kurds were saved from total genocide and I'll pat you on the back.

Saddam's genocide of the Kurds ended in 1991. More Kurds killed each other between
1991 and 2000, mostly in a mini civil war between the Barzani and Talabani clans. By 2003, the Kurds were well fortified to defy Saddam with a well-armed peshmerga militia, thanks mostly to the CIA and Mossad.

I'll pat you on the back

Like I need or asked for your approval.


 
125Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 14:27
You were in a deal making mood so I accommodated you.

See PV#118
 
126Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 14:36
Saddam was the kind of guy who would torture one guy until he made up an accusation of some guy named Bob in city-X. He would then go to city-X, torture every man named Bob to death until he could generate new leads and start the process over.

But as long as you are satisfied with Iraq post 1991...
 
127DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 15:07
*nudge to all, points at thread topic*
 
128Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Apr 26, 2010, 15:35
Not sure where to put this one: A program designed to reduce energy consumption persuaded some Republicans to consume more.

While the program succeeded in encouraging Democrats and environmentalists to lower their consumption, Republicans had the opposite reaction. When told of their relative thrift, they started cranking up the thermostat and leaving the lights on more often.
 
129boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 26, 2010, 17:42
Interesting article, though i think there conclusions about the reasoning behind the mindset is a bit off. Reminds me of a story that i was just reading about how consumption of green products actually makes people less likely to support environmental initiatives because they already feel like they are doing their part.
 
130Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Apr 26, 2010, 18:04
I think the psychological aspects of it are interesting myself.

Your point reminds me of the fact that the mandatory helmets for kids riding bikes hasn't reduced head injuries, because kids now feel they can do more risky stuff on their bikes because they have helmets.
 
131boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 26, 2010, 18:17
Your point reminds me of the fact that the mandatory helmets for kids riding bikes hasn't reduced head injuries, because kids now feel they can do more risky stuff on their bikes because they have helmets.

Interesting have not seen that, i did see a similar study related to snow skiing with similar results.
 
132biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 00:04
re: 130 - I would love to see that study.

I have been considering how to design a study that would try and measure the competing risks of declining exercise among youth due to helmet laws (and their negative effect on riding due to "uncoolness" factor) and how the corresponding increase in heart disease and other diseases of a sedentary lifestyle might more than outweigh the risk of head injuries.

I don't think it can be done well, though you could perhaps make some inferences using ecologic comparisons.

If, in fact, it increases risky behaviors, that would be another strike against helmet laws.

Lance quotes a number that more than 40% of kids used to ride their bikes to school just 25 years ago. Now 3% do. Sad.
 
133Frick
      ID: 54325267
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 09:00
Re: 132

How much of that is due to the change of community lay-outs? I know that in my community the number of kids riding bikes to school this year has sky-rocketed. The reason is that the school district in a cost-cutting measure stopped bus service to anyone within a mile of the school. This was the rule for decades, but buses had run through our neighborhood until this year. I have mixed feelings, it is good exercise for the kids to walk to school. I question the safety of it, when the kids have to be on the slick snow covered streets in the dark in single digit temperatures, especially grade school children.
 
134boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 10:55
Re 132: Interesting idea a really hard study to design. As someone who use to ride there bike to school in middle school i probably would have just gotten a ride from parents in the morning and walked home in the afternoon than worn a helmet, probably more out of the factor that it what do i do with during school as much as it was uncool.

Maybe you could design the study to not specifically look at helmet laws but at general tendency to reduce risks for kids and how this has lead to reduction physical activity.
 
135Boldwin
      ID: 183112613
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 11:16
When I was a kid I'd disappear half a day exploring nearby woods, or biking far far across town.

Now days my parents would have the body sniffing dogs at work by the time I would have gotten back, had I not scaled back my adventures.

I don't think this is just about computers/games, sedentary lifestyles or dorky helmets.
 
136Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 11:18
I agree. Lifestyles have changed a bit, and residential planning has a lot to do with that, sadly (as a planner, I see it all the time). There seem to be a number of factors coming into play which is driving down bike riding by kids.
 
137Boldwin
      ID: 183112613
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 11:28
This is about a dangerous environment. When you don't dare let your kid Trick-or-Treat without a pack of parents following them around, You aren't going to be inclined to let them out of your sight at other times either. This isn't about a lack of bike trails.
 
138Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 11:31
When I was a kid I'd disappear half a day exploring nearby woods, or biking far far across town.

Now days my parents would have the body sniffing dogs at work by the time I would have gotten back, had I not scaled back my adventures.


i think it depends on the parents, the kids, and the environment. this is another area where you can't paint with a broad brush.

i know if my parents had kids today, they'd be ok with them being "lost" for an afternoon.

depending on where i live, and who my wife is, i don't think i'd be that worried.

my brother and his wife in BC wouldn't be worried. my brother in vermont, depending on his future wife, probably wouldn't be worried.

my brother in Israel is planning to kayak from spain to israel, and has hiked for days. depending on his future wife, i doubt he'd worry.

my brother in maryland? his wife is as uptight as it gets. she worries if their son goes to the bathroom by himself in their own house and gets engaged in a good magazine article for 10 minutes.
 
139Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 11:36
Maybe I'm crazy, but I let me 12=year-old go for walks all the time in our area. He loves hiking around, and he's always got his cell phone.
 
140boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 11:45
Maybe I'm crazy, but I let me 12=year-old go for walks all the time in our area. He loves hiking around, and he's always got his cell phone.

the fact that you think that could be considered crazy makes me think Boldwin is right, when I was 11 I would be gone all day in the summers and not just walking we use to take boats out and sail miles from home or up snake infested creeks all with out phones. And everyone did it even my the most strict of my parents friends let him do most anything but go on the water without special permission.
 
141biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 14:57
I think it's all the scare media. It's the perception of danger, not the reality of danger.

Our kids are much safer now than 25 years ago, and pretty close to the safest kids have ever been in the history of mankind. The riskiest thing most kids do today is get into a car with mom.

The odds of getting picked up off the street by a stranger are 1 in a million (well, 2 in a million), but that 1 story gets blasted non-stop on CNN, and it starts to feel like this sort of thing happens all the time. When in reality, it happens a tiny percentage of the time. And most of those times are probably from someone the kid knows, but the police never discover it.
 
142Boldwin
      ID: 183112613
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 19:42
The mother of Kayla Lansing has attended our Kingdom Hall. My kids escaped two kidnapping attempts. I'm thinking it's more common than you think, Bili.
 
143biliruben
      ID: 113582522
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 19:58
not according to the stats.
 
144weykool
      ID: 351422416
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 21:21
Bike trails have absolutely nothing to do with it.
As a kid I rode my bike all over the place and we had not one bike trail.
I do think times have changed and it has little to do with the actual statistics but the perceived danger.
 
145Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 21:42
The mother of Kayla Lansing has attended our Kingdom Hall. My kids escaped two kidnapping attempts. I'm thinking it's more common than you think, Bili.

and i don't know one single person who has had a kidnapping scare.

i'm thinking it's less common than you think.
 
146Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, May 10, 2010, 09:44
Fake photo used in Science article

This is the one of a lone polar bear floating away on an iceberg. Totally fake. They also fail to explain that a polar bear can swim 40 miles to shore.
 
147Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Mon, May 10, 2010, 18:27
Al Gore bought an ocean front home in California for 9 million. Hope the oceans dont rise.
 
148biliruben
      ID: 113582522
      Mon, May 10, 2010, 18:39
And dolphins sip Martinis and 7000 feet.

Hope morons aren't in charge of climate change decisions.
 
149Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Mon, May 10, 2010, 18:54
You mean, like voters who let some guy with a 10,000 sq/ft home and a $1200 monthly electric bill, fly into their state in a private jet to lecture them at over $100,000 per speech about how how high they should be taxed for their evil carbon footprint?
 
150biliruben
      ID: 113582522
      Mon, May 10, 2010, 18:57
No, they shouldn't be in charge of climate change decisions either.

Why would I want someone who needs a lecture from Al Gore making decisions about climate change policy?

I'm going to go join the dolphins. Hopefully when I surface, common sense will have returned.
 
151Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Mon, May 10, 2010, 22:25
Sister hugging tree, the boy's out swimming with the dolphins...what does your father think of all of this? 8]
 
152Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, May 10, 2010, 23:28
You mean, like voters who let some guy with a 10,000 sq/ft home and a $1200 monthly electric bill, fly into their state in a private jet to lecture them at over $100,000 per speech about how how high they should be taxed for their evil carbon footprint?

it should be noted that the home also houses both Al Gore and Tipper Gore's office, so compare the usage of energy in that home to that of an "average" home, and two "average" offices.

also, about half that $1,000 bill comes from a premium paid on getting electricity from renewable sources, such as solar, wind, etc etc.

and, finally, they had reservations done last year that cut their electricity consumption during the summer by 11 percent, while most homes in nashville saw their bills rise 20 to 30 percent during the same time period.
 
153Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jun 29, 2010, 11:34
Sex complaint against Gore is detailed, credible


"He pleaded, grabbed me, engulfed me in embrace, tongue kissed me, massaged me, groped by breasts and painfully squeezed my nipples through my clothing, pressed his pelvis against mine, rubbed my buttocks with his hands and fingers and rubbed himself against my crotch, saying, 'You know you want to do it.'"

Finally she got away. Later, she talked to friends, liberals like herself, who advised against telling police. One asked her "to just suck it up; otherwise, the world's going to be destroyed from global warming.



 
154DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Jun 29, 2010, 14:17
[x] detailed
[?] credible
[?] Earth will be destroyed by global warming
[ ] The statement above will be affected by whether Al Gore felt someone up in a hotel room
 
155Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jun 29, 2010, 14:19
Why is that even relevant?
 
156Boldwin
      ID: 575102918
      Tue, Jun 29, 2010, 19:11
If it was your wife that he groped you'd get it.
 
157Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jun 29, 2010, 19:57
Get what, exactly? That if my wife was groped that it was about climate change?
 
158Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jun 29, 2010, 20:56
PD - at this point, he's just nonsense and rambling cryptic statements. you still expect explanations?
 
159Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jun 29, 2010, 21:29
Well, she *is* hot.
 
160Boldwin
      ID: 43528308
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 09:30
I guess it's actually woman-made warming then.
 
161Boldwin
      ID: 43528308
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 09:31
For the record, you two make a handsome couple.
 
162Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 11:03
TY. Also for the record, we're expecting out 4th little perm dude in February.

 
163biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 13:44
Congrats! We can barely handle one. Do you use ropes or
cAges?
 
164Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 13:56
My wife's joke was, when we moved from two to three, that we had to switch up from a man-to-man to a zone defense.

I dunno what we're going to do with 4.
 
165biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 14:29
Get the oldest to switch sides...
 
166Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 15:13
I'd go with the box and one.
 
167DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 15:16
I'm pretty sure that's what got him into this mess in the first place, B7.
 
168Boldwin
      ID: 43528308
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 16:21
So that's where they come from!
 
169Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 16:34
Shh, DW. You're giving away Catholic secrets...
 
170Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 17:05
I figured there was a joke in there somewhere.
 
171Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 09:38
Global Tax Scam Shifts From Climate Change To Poverty by Paul Joseph Watson at prisonplanet.com.

A brief excerpt:

As the science behind global warming becomes increasingly discredited and its proponents are exposed as eugenics-obsessed control freaks who care only about destroying freedom, the effort to make Americans pay a global tax has shifted from the justification of climate change to that of poverty.

As we documented on Sunday, leaders from 60 nations will be meeting at the UN this week to push a tax on world financial transactions, formally launching a massive program to bankrupt the middle class and enrich the coffers of global government
 
172Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 09:41
Man, that's a brilliant first sentence of that excerpt. I couldn't write better satire than that.
 
173Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 09:56
it's an award-winning sentence for Wing Nut Buzzword Bingo.
 
174Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 00:01


Check this out. The warming cult is getting desperate.
 
175Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 00:43
what's funny is the judgmental looks and comments on the face of the "news" woman reporting this "story".

the story also failed to mentioned the current apology by the group, which can be found here...

not a great piece of journalism there, that's for sure...

 
176Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 00:45
I saw the original, which tried to be shocking but only looked fatally judgmental. I really don't see how the thing was going to get anyone to actually look at climate change more seriously.
 
177Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 09:20
Twist it into where Foxnews did something wrong. Nice. And this was no amateur production.
 
178Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 09:40
FNC did do something wrong, if you think news reporting lacking objectivity and integrity is wrong.

Doesn't excuse the video, of course. But I've never even heard of this 1010 group so I'm not sure why I should care or buy into this as an indictment of desperation of all people who know GW is a fact, as B7 claims.

But if it is reasonable to indict an entire group based on a singular expression from one small corner of it, apparently B7 has not seen the 'Teabag Day' and 'Direction of the GOP II' threads.
 
179Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 09:41
He might want to take a look at the "What Appalled me on FNC Today" thread as well.
 
180Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 11:24
Twist it into where Foxnews did something wrong. Nice. And this was no amateur production.

the fact is that they DID do something wrong.

yes, the video that was discussed was a bad idea - in nearly every way.

but it doesn't change the fact that the reporting on it from foxnews was awful, complete with trying to paint all those who believe in climate change with the same brush as this group that no one i know has ever heard of.

it was just a biased, judgmental, overly dramatic, piece of dreck.
 
181Boldwin
      ID: 1951610
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 11:51
Uncut version.
 
182The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 12:06
Apparently the only way Democrats can take on the energy issue is to play boogeyman with Armageddon. And they call Republicans fear mongers? Gimme a break. Tax incentives, get the environmentalists off the back of people trying to build wind farms and solar arrays? Nah. Let us talk about the polar bears, Florida flooding over, and massive carbon taxes instead.
 
183bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 15:43
I for one believe that MITH and Tree should quit playing boogeyman with Armageddon.
 
184DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 16:00
I actually agree some what you say there LB, once you get past the histrionics. I'm happy to shift the balance some between environmental concerns and renewable energy.

However, I'm surprised that you're both in favor of tax incentives for one type of energy creation and are against tax penalties for another kind -- those are basically two sides of exactly the same coin, are they not, and either way government's intervening in the market place to incentivize certain energy types at the expense of others.

Even though you didn't ask, I think the frustration that a lot of Democrats, liberals, and others have with most of the official Republican positions is that their position has seemed to consist of "we need more energy, let's go get more oil, since that's what we're using now", with no conception that that is:

1. Damaging the environment to some degree or another, you can argue about the details but it's clearly not good;

2. Doesn't seem to show any concern for the increase in environmental damage that will result from going for more oil;

3. Merely delaying the inevitable in terms of running out of oil/making oil exploration and retrieval prohibitively expensive;

4. Seems more based on geopolitical concerns than good energy policy.


If you think that more than a very small fraction of Democrats would prefer that we continue the status quo in terms of energy creation because a few three-bellied spotted musk oxen are going to be displaced, you're sorely mistaken and/or demagoguing an easy target at the expense of not making real decisions. At the same time, I'm probably mistaken in thinking that official Republican policy is "we'd vaporize half the species of wildlife in Alaska for three barrels of sweet crude" and thinking that's a really stupid policy too, but, hey, fair's fair.
 
185Frick
      ID: 42825248
      Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 16:54
From the SF Gate

The California Air Resources Board (CARB) was just a bit outside when it came to estimating air pollution. They were off by 340%.

While CARB only applies in California, a number of states copy the CARB regulations.

 
186Boldwin
      ID: 169792
      Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 11:02
CARB has always been excessively strict compared to other standards. I think there is a better one from Canada sensible people use if I am not mistaken. I forget the name atm.
 
187Boldwin
      ID: 169792
      Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 11:04
Scratch that.
 
188DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, Oct 11, 2010, 17:19
Here you go, right-wingers, it's all starting to come together for you now:

Samoan clerics finger homosexuals over global warming
 
189biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Oct 11, 2010, 17:25
I wish you hadn't used that verb. ;)
 
190Boldwin
      ID: 519331116
      Mon, Oct 11, 2010, 17:41
n....esp when bound together and used as fuel...
 
191DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, Oct 11, 2010, 17:46
"I wish you hadn't used that verb. ;)"

That's the actual headline! Honest!
 
192Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 10:19
Turn out the lights, the party's over by Wesley Pruden of the Washington Times:

Scams die hard, but eventually they die, and when they do, nobody wants to get close to the corpse. You can get all the hotel rooms you want this week in Cancun.

The global-warming caravan has moved on, bound for a destination in oblivion. The United Nations is hanging the usual lamb chop in the window this week in Mexico for the U.N.'s Framework Convention on Climate Change, but the Washington guests are staying home. Nobody wants to get the smell of the corpse on their clothes.

Everybody who imagined himself anybody raced to Copenhagen last year for the global-warming summit, renamed "climate change" when the globe began to cool, as it does from time to time. Some 45,000 delegates, "activists," business representatives and the usual retinue of journalists registered for the party in Copenhagen. This year, only 1,234 journalists registered for the Cancun beach party. The only story there is that there's no story there. The U.N. organizers glumly concede that Cancun won't amount to anything, even by U.N. standards.......

 
193Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 10:30
Given the lame duck session of Congress is only about three weeks long and they have a lot to do (including the START treaty, tax reform, DREAM Act, health care for 9/11 responders, etc) I think they can be excused for not knocking off a third of their work session to go to any single issue conference.

Your columnist is massively overeading things.
 
194Boldwin
      ID: 451159221
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 10:43
I announce the Boldwin Rule.

The Boldwin rule states that:

Whenever global leaders meet to discuss Global Warming, one of them has escaped a record setting cold snap. [Tuesday was the coldest in Denmark for 120 years]

The only exceptions to this rule are those times they are flying into a record setting cold snap. [like the last conference in Copenhagen, Denmark, a little repetition for emphasis was needed]
 
195DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 10:51
So is the corollary to the Boldwin rule now that it's completely okay to use extremely short-term hot spells or other miniscule weather events as conclusive evidence of actual global warming as well, or does this only work one way?
 
196Boldwin
      ID: 451159221
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 10:59
I'm not talking conclusive evidence. I'm talking about God's sense of humor.
 
197DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 11:09
Well, preparing you on this earth for an eternity of extremely hot conditions is pretty humorous, I do agree.
 
198Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 11:23
I, too, find the timing to be kinda funny. Maybe they should hold these things in the summer...
 
199Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 11:27
Define short-term? Short-term in regards to human life? Or short-term when compared to the Sun's life?
 
200Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 11:29
I want to play the cherry picking game too ...

2010 records most national extreme heat records ever
The year 2010 now has the most national extreme heat records for a single year. No nations set record for their coldest temperature in history in 2010.

Looking back at the past decade, which was the hottest decade in the historical record, seventy-five counties set extreme hottest temperature records (33% of all countries.) For comparison, fifteen countries set extreme coldest temperature records over the past ten years (6% of all countries).

 
201Boldwin
      ID: 451159221
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 12:13
How are things at the Hadley Centre, Tosh?
 
202DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 12:47
"Define short-term? Short-term in regards to human life? Or short-term when compared to the Sun's life? "

Short term in comparison to, say, an ant's life. "Short term in comparison to the Sun's life" really doesn't do us a lot of good.

What did you surmise the definition of short term was?
 
203Boldwin
      ID: 291145317
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 18:46
Britain gripped by Narnia-like weather spell.

 
204Boldwin
      ID: 291145317
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 20:01
Amended:

Whenever global leaders meet to discuss Global Warming, one or more of them has escaped a record setting cold snap.
 
205Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 22:37
There was a very cool satellite photo of last year I should try to find. The whole country was entirely white, with no cloud cover. A beautiful image.
 
206Boldwin
      ID: 291145317
      Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 08:17
Yes, just in time for the Copenhagen GW conference.
 
207Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 12:25
I should probably point out that these huge, continent-wide snowstorms are entirely predicted by climate change theories. If, indeed, the earth is gradually warming up, this points more moisture in the air, which causes some of these huge storms.

"Global warming" doesn't say that everything just gets hot, all the time, and stays there.

The snowstorms are ironic, but not in the way that the deniers want them to be.
 
208Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 13:00
Agreed, PD. Because the Pacific Ocean is warmer around the equator this year (La Nina), that causes a weather pattern where Arctic air from Canada comes down from the East and slams western WA with cold, snowy storms. The ocean is warmer, the Arctic is warmer, we are colder. Only Boldwin thinks our increased snow means the Earth is not warming.
 
209DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 14:20
Nope, we had 8 inches of snow here today, that's clearly conclusive proof that global warming is a big hoax, baby Jesus told me so himself -- you can't confuse ME with your numbers and your science mumbo-jumbo!
 
210Boldwin
      ID: 261126418
      Sun, Dec 05, 2010, 00:28


Recently spent $7,500 on tree and lights.
 
211Boldwin
      ID: 261126418
      Sun, Dec 05, 2010, 12:04
Tom, you are married to Gisele Bundchen. Stick with candlelight.
 
212Boldwin
      ID: 351143823
      Thu, Dec 09, 2010, 00:43
"New record low temperatures set in Cancun for three straight days" - Oh oh, I have naming rights competition...'Gore Effect'
 
213Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Thu, Dec 09, 2010, 12:42
Great article Baldy. I know nothing is more concrete than 3 big days of weather. That certainly proves a theory invalid. Cooler weather couldn't be the result of anything else.

Silly Gore. Such a fool.
 
214Boldwin
      ID: 541148911
      Thu, Dec 09, 2010, 12:52
In many other threads I've shown you the science and the scientists calling AGW the biggest scientific hoax of all time but you wouldn't look at that either.
 
215Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Thu, Dec 09, 2010, 13:22
Baldwin, when are you going to learn that Global Warming isn't solely built on "it will get warmer outside. I should be wearing my shorts more often."?
 
216Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Thu, Dec 09, 2010, 13:46
I don't agree with everything global warming related, pointing out outliers, doesn't debunk the science.

Now, I think some of the science behind global warming is suspect and I really think there are flaws in the reasons that are claimed as the cause.

I do think we should try and reduce out emissions and consumption.

 
217Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Dec 09, 2010, 22:28
More Than 1000 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims – Challenge UN IPCC & Gore

According to the non-scientist Al Gore......the science is settled. A 3rd grader would conclude it is not settled.

I was thinking that if we are adding one billion people to the planet every seven years and each person farts 3 times per day for 333 days and has no farts for 32 days; then we are adding one trillion farts to the planet every year. And then they are eating more cows and stuff that are also farting. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with global warming. I have to quit watching Southpark.
 
218Boldwin
      ID: 1511181210
      Sun, Dec 12, 2010, 11:24
Metrodome Collapses, players stuck in various cities stranded by blizzard conditions. Do I play Johnny Knox in this...yeeeeh.
"Climate, not weather ya bonehead. Who'da thunk it would ever snow in winter in Minn? It's happened before, Boldwin. Global Warming predicted the Metrodome would collapse. If it got buried in snow in July I'd still believe in AGW. Nothing you say or could ever happen would falsify this theory beautifully crafted and unshakable fact about the physical universe."
Spare me.
 
219sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sun, Dec 12, 2010, 12:10
collapsed in '81, '82 and '83 too. What's your point?
 
220DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Dec 12, 2010, 12:18
Three in three years followed by 1 in 27 years. That seems like pretty conclusive proof that global warming is real. Thanks for coming around, B!
 
221Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Dec 12, 2010, 12:21
Did you miss #207, Baldwin?
 
224Boldwin
      ID: 1511181210
      Sun, Dec 12, 2010, 13:59
PD referencing PD#207

Yeah, I alluded to it in #218. Try and keep up. No matter what happens, you will say that. Whichever direction the glacier goes, if it's hot or cold, wet or dry, up or down, bright or dark, it's all proof of AGW.
 
225Boldwin
      ID: 1511181210
      Sun, Dec 12, 2010, 14:03
And it's all proof we're doomed. Glaciers recede in Himalayas? AGW. Oh wait, they're not....uhm, not enuff water in the river system.
 
226DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Dec 12, 2010, 14:40
"Whichever direction the glacier goes, if it's hot or cold, wet or dry, up or down, bright or dark, it's all proof of AGW."

1. Not true.

2. If it was true... it'd be as opposed to your nuanced view of "no matter what happens, it's all part of a vast conspiracy" anyway, so at the absolute worst -- honors even.
 
227Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Dec 12, 2010, 18:27
#225: #218 merely continues your non-understanding of the theories you try, unsuccessfully, to mock. I get it: Your side doesn't like education, so you mock scientists. You've decided to eject smart people from your party, so you are left with, essentially, vacuous zingers.

Again: If you want to mock something, you need to understand what they are actually saying. I realize it is hard to real difficult things, and easy to be intellectually lazy and toss thoughtless zingers at people (theologically lazy too, I might add. There is a reason why Satan likes the style you use).
 
228Tree
      ID: 2010312116
      Sun, Dec 12, 2010, 22:14
#218 is a baffling post. it's like junior high debate, and i can't believe an intelligent adult would use a blizzard as some sort of proof that global warming doesn't exist.
 
229Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 15:45
FOX "News" boss Bill Sammon lays down the law: Manipulate opinion on climate science.
 
230Boldwin
      ID: 321113189
      Sat, Dec 18, 2010, 10:49
Of course PD has no problem with liberal orwellian spin sites using each other as the last word on any controversy.

Media Matters citing factcheck and politifact carries no more weight with non-liberals than Newsbusters or Media Research Center citing Breibart and WND would have with you.

Peter Frumhoff using peer review to scoff at climategate when climategate was half about the exposed deliberate corruption of peer review. I guess he's counting on the ignorance of the audience about what climategate actually revealed.

They have the face to quote Nature magazine when that corrupted magazine was exposed knee-deep in helping prevent anyone else from being able to replicate the Hadley Centers work. Of course they want to wave it off.

They try and use 29 prominent scientists as the last word when the AGW forces ignore many thousands of scientists disputing their claims.

Soros isn't getting much for his money this time. Enuff to buffalo some of the people, tho.

 
231DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Dec 18, 2010, 11:01
BSPN translator: "It's OK to lie if you don't like the people you're lying about!"
 
232Boldwin
      ID: 321113189
      Sat, Dec 18, 2010, 12:07
You can take an ignorant piss on my leg like that after my every post, just don't post a music video.



 
233Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Dec 18, 2010, 12:10
#230: I never said anything about liberal organizations. Not one word. A "news" organization which has a top-down policy of politicizing the information they are presenting as "fact" should be called on it.

Except, of course, if they are from the Right, it seems. They their soldiers need to leap into the breach...
 
234Boldwin
      ID: 321113189
      Sat, Dec 18, 2010, 12:22
I never said anything about liberal organizations. Not one word.

No, your single sentence was in it's entirety a link to Media Matters, or are you disowning #229?
 
235DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Dec 18, 2010, 13:38
Boldwin, is it OK for Bill Sammon to order his "unbiased" newscasters to lie, or not? Your post sure seemed to imply that it did. If you'd like to retract that, perhaps I'll consider changing my mind.

Until that time, or until the time you stop spewing your own intellectual incontinence over these boards and this Earth, I'll kindly thank you to not tell ME when to talk and when not to, because you clearly don't have the first clue yourself, you uncivil twat.
 
236Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Dec 18, 2010, 14:59
Let me clarify: I didn't say anything about liberal (or even mainstream) news organizations.

You've got a tic. When challenged on something, you point that liberals do the same thing. But you forgot that liberals are always wrong.

Reconcile this. Take your time.

Meanwhile, FOX was wrong to do what it did.
 
237Boldwin
      ID: 321113189
      Sat, Dec 18, 2010, 16:01
Quoting Sammons, "ordering the network's journalists to "refrain from asserting that the planet has warmed (or cooled) in any given period without IMMEDIATELY pointing out that such theories are based upon data that critics have called into question."

The poliboard has had long exchanges quoting scientists on both sides. Obviously they are in dispute or the small coterie of politically driven and often financially compromised 'scientists' at Hadley wouldn't have had anyone to conspire to silence and deny data-sharing with.
 
238Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Dec 19, 2010, 14:18
What he did was tell them to stop asserting facts without inserting that there are those that challenge those facts.

FOX did nothing wrong in the original report, but inserting uncertainty into the debate as a rhetorical tactic (in order to imply that scientists are not nearly unanimous on the issue) is wrong.

FOX has tooled you and other conservatives into dancing their dance at their convenience and with steps they provide.
 
239Boldwin
      ID: 5011331914
      Sun, Dec 19, 2010, 15:38
I came to my conclusions looking at the science, listening to both sides of the scientific debate and watching the unscientific corruption at work driving the 'science'. Fox had absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
240Boldwin
      ID: 5011331914
      Sun, Dec 19, 2010, 15:44
And with tens of thousands of scientists in disagreement implying that scientists are not nearly unanimous on the issue)' is the honest truth.

How you can ignore that everytime I link to dissenting scientists has certainly lowered my estimation of you. That Fox has heard them vindicates Fox in my eyes.
 
241Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Dec 19, 2010, 17:42
FOX made a factual statement in the broadcast, then made the decision to make a wishy-washy "some scientists" change when it was clear making such factual statements was against their political agenda.

Really--what is so hard here? Admitting that "Fair and Balanced" is the title of a all-spin network?

Wish I'd written this one in response:

 
242Boldwin
      ID: 5011331914
      Sun, Dec 19, 2010, 18:07
Really--what is so hard here?

Listening to you claim scientists are unanimous on this subject. Even the general trend of cooling or warming depends on which segment of the graph and which data set scientists choose to use.
 
243Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Dec 19, 2010, 18:13
Well, I did say "nearly unanimous." Miss that one?
 
244Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Wed, Dec 22, 2010, 11:20
I'm not sure if anyone here ever listens to the Skeptics Guide to the Universe, but there is a great interview around the 45 minute mark of podcast #283. link

It talks about the ability of people to make predictions and how confident people are in those predictions.

My main point is that I'm skeptical of experts who claim they know what is going to happen in the future.
 
245Boldwin
      ID: 591147257
      Sun, Dec 26, 2010, 05:24
How mainstream media went lamestream. One reason out of so many.

Britain's 'The Independent' and their most famous, most visited archived column.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html

Cause when you really have to get the longterm weather forecast right you call East Anglia.
 
246Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Fri, Jan 14, 2011, 05:03
One seriously elaborate hoax:



2010 tied 2005 for the hottest year on record in terms of global average surface temperature.
The new figures confirm that 2010 will go down as one of the more remarkable years in the annals of climatology. It featured prodigious snowstorms that broke seasonal records in the United States and Europe; a record-shattering summer heat wave that scorched Russia; strong floods that drove people from their homes in places like Pakistan, Australia, California and Tennessee; a severe die-off of coral reefs; and a continuation in the global trend of a warming climate.

It was the 34th year running that global temperatures have been above the 20th-century average; the last below-average year was 1976. The new figures show that 9 of the 10 warmest years on record have occurred since the beginning of 2001.
 
247biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Fri, Jan 14, 2011, 07:53
They are clearly putting their thermometers next to bonfires. Or something.

Those climatologists are all bought and paid for by the, um, the snow-shovel and sunscreen lobby.
 
248Boldwin
      ID: 200431414
      Fri, Jan 14, 2011, 15:43
By the governments and foundations handing out grants.
 
249biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Jan 14, 2011, 18:36
The data is publically available. Have at it, or stop accusing the entire research community of a massive fraud with no substantiation.
 
250Boldwin
      ID: 200431414
      Fri, Jan 14, 2011, 18:54
Scientists couldn't even pry the data out of East Anglia's hands with court orders.
 
251Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Fri, Jan 14, 2011, 19:11
shhhhhhhhhh, it's a secret. like Obama's REAL birth certificate.
 
252Boldwin
      ID: 4635123
      Sun, Apr 03, 2011, 19:45
Anti-intellectual and deservedly so.
Part of the problem is that the American distrust of intellectualism is itself not the irrational thing that those sympathetic to intellectuals would like to think. Intellectuals killed by the millions in the 20th century, and it actually takes the sophisticated training of “education” to work yourself up into a state where you refuse to count that in the books. Intellectuals routinely declared things that aren’t true; catastrophically wrong predictions about the economy, catastrophically wrong pronouncements about foreign policy, and just generally numerous times where they’ve been wrong. Again, it takes a lot of training to ignore this fact. “Scientists” collectively were witnessed by the public flipflopping at a relatively high frequency on numerous topics; how many times did eggs go back and forth between being deadly and beneficial? Sure the media gets some blame here but the scientists played into it, each time confidently pronouncing that this time they had it for sure and it is imperative that everyone live the way they are saying (until tomorrow). Scientists have failed to resist politicization across the board, and the standards of what constitutes science continues to shift from a living, vibrant, thoughtful understanding of the purposes and ways of science to a scelerotic hide-bound form-over-substance version of science where papers are too often written to either explicitly attract grants or to confirm someone’s political beliefs… and regardless of whether this is 2% or 80% of the papers written today it’s nearly 100% of the papers that people hear about.

I simplify for rhetorical effect; my point is not that this is a literal description of the current state of the world but that it is far more true than it should be. Any accounting of “anti-intellectualism” that fails to take this into account and lays all the blame on “Americans” is too incomplete to formulate an action plan that will have any chance of success. It’s not a one-sided problem.

If you want to fix anti-intellectualism, you first need to fix intellectualism and return it to its roots of dispassionate exploration, commitment to truth over all else and bending processes to find truth rather than bending truth to fit (politicized) processes.
If you want to fix anti-intellectualism, you first need to fix intellectualism
 
253Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Apr 03, 2011, 20:30
hahaha. Yes, when Americans are blamed for something we should disbelieve it.

I really don't know what it so hard here, that anti-climate changers insist that the scientists are saying something they aren't and react against it. The last 5-10 years, all we're hearing from that "side" of the argument is how dead set that they are against scientific arrogance.

Certainly they are tired of being called stupid. But serving up actual evidence seems to be beyond their pique.
 
254Boldwin
      ID: 4635123
      Sun, Apr 03, 2011, 21:06
We've directed you to plenty of scientists who disagree. You are just in denial that science actually hashes out competing theories and frequently the prevailing theory gets discredited and supplanted. Furthermore add the layer of exposed corruption in the AGW leadership and any scientifically versed and dispassionate person has plenty of reason to doubt AGW.
 
255Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Apr 03, 2011, 21:27
Find me one scientist who says that Arctic ice isn't melting at a dramatic pace.
Then add the layer of exposed corruption in the fossil fuels industry leadership, who finance their own science and scientists, as well as anti-conservationist politicians(I know, they call themselves conservatives - ironic, huh?)and those reasons can be doubted, but not readily dismissed, which is your case.
 
256Boldwin
      ID: 4635123
      Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 05:56
1) I have many times posted links to the research showing both occur in both Antarctica, Greenland and the Arctic, both areas of ice loss and areas where ice thickness is increasing. You don't get to trumpet the one without the other evidence.

2) The corruption of IPCC members financially invested in the AGW industry, scientists feeding at the grant trough with the silliest of AGW research proposals, the leaders of the main AGW research centers mired chest deep in evidence of scientific fraud...and you haven't demonstrated the opponents are financed by the energy industry either. These guys have taken huge hits to their careers to stand up for unbiased science and letting the evidence rather than PC agendas rule the conclusions.
 
257Boldwin
      ID: 4635123
      Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 06:29
Find me one scientist who says that Arctic ice isn't melting at a dramatic pace.

First off, that sentence just screams scientific naivete. Arctic ice is in a seasonal ebb and flow all the time, it's not just racing to zero, it's growing half the time.

Witness:

2008 - October 2008 has seen the fastest Arctic sea ice extent growth ever recorded.

2009 - The Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research report prepared for last week's meeting of Antarctic Treaty nations in Washington noted the South Pole had shown "significant cooling in recent decades."

Australia Antarctic Division glaciology program head Ian Allison said sea ice losses in west Antarctica over the past 30 years had been more than offset by increases in the Ross Sea region, just one sector of east Antarctica.

"Sea ice conditions have remained stable in Antarctica generally," Allison said.

Ice core drilling in the fast ice off Australia's Davis Station in East Antarctica by the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Co-Operative Research Center shows that last year, the ice had a maximum thickness of 1.89m, its densest in 10 years.

2010 - In the last couple of years the Arctic ice was shrinking so rapidly that certain climate change scientists even made predictions how by the the year 2013 Arctic will be completely ice-free in summer months. However, the latest measured data showed that the amount of sea ice in Arctic has dramatically increased last month, reaching levels not seen at this time of year for a very long time.

2011 - Here is the actual arctic ice coverage and as you will see it has not been plummeting to zero in the last ten years contrary to popular misconception and deliberate AGW propaganda.



So don't imagine I have an impossible job finding just one scientist to back me up. The truth is unmistakable with your own two eyes.

addendum: No polar bears aren't starving and drowning either.
However, the report did say: "The total number of polar bears worldwide is estimated to be 20,000-25,000."

Almost 50 years ago, polar bear scientists first estimated there might be as many as 19,000 polar bears. Three years ago, they estimated there might be as few as 20,000.

Who knows? By the time the government decrees polar bears not merely threatened, but endangered, there may be as few as 30,000 roaming the Arctic wastes.
 
258Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 09:23
Let's start with the polar bears. Your link by Terrence Jeffries is ridiculous. He's not a scientist or wildlife biologist or researcher, and what he writes has absolutely no bearing on whether polar bears are starving or drowning. It's not even mentioned. He's a political hack who throws out some historical population numbers.

Then, to confuse the issue, you mix Artic and Antarctic claims, which is like comparing Siberia with Tierra Del Fuego, since the Northern Hemisphere's population and industrialization dwarfs that of the Southern Hemisphere.

Cherry picking data to support your claim, by bloggers, not scientists, doesn't prove a thing. Your 2010 claim in April 2010 that the latest measured data showed that the amount of sea ice in Arctic has dramatically increased last month, reaching levels not seen at this time of year for a very long time. A very long time? Now there's some stark scientific data. However, upon further observation, Arctic sea ice extent in September, 2010, was the third-lowest in the satellite record.

link

This is supported by actual satellite evidence.

Despite year-to-year variations, satellite data show a decline of more than 11 percent per decade in September ice extent, since the satellite record started in 1979. Before 1979, the data are less comprehensive, but shipping records and other evidence show that the ice extent has been in a continued state of decline for at least the last hundred years

From the same link:

NSIDC scientists also monitor the extent of Antarctic sea ice. In contrast to Arctic sea ice, the sea ice cover that surrounds the Antarctic continent has actually grown slightly since the start of the satellite record. However, this trend is smaller (1 to 4 percent in different months), and the Antarctic sea ice cover is more variable than the Arctic. Also, unlike Arctic sea ice, a majority of Antarctic sea ice already melts away each summer, and has done so since at least 1979. Even if wintertime Antarctic sea ice were to increase or decrease significantly in the future, it would not have a huge impact on the climate system. During the Antarctic winter, energy from the sun is at its weakest point; its ability or inability to reflect the sun’s energy back into space has little effect on regulating the planet’s temperature.

That might help discern between Arctic and Antarctic.
 
259Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 09:45
It's humorous that the link used to "prove" that Arctic ice dramatically increased in March 2010, has this to say in another article:

Nine out of ten climate change scientists will tell you that climate change is serious problem caused by excessive greenhouse gas emissions, mostly from fossil fuels burning. But yet despite so many scientists warning governments to do something before it is too late, you have the feeling like world leaders are still skeptical on both climate change as well as agreeing on new climate deal that would significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions. It is either that they still do not fully believe science because if they would believe scientists than they would be really stupid not to act on something that could cause serious problems in years to come, or perhaps the reasons for delays and ignorance is not in not accepting the obvious but all about fossil fuels industry lobbies that still determine the moves the politicians make.

Thanks for the link!

 
260Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 10:39
More from Boldwin's link:

Greenland ice melting

Dr. Hubbard's team consisted of 15 scientists from Aberystwyth and Swansea universities who spent five months on the ice sheet from the beginning of May where they measured the thickness, speed, climate, and other vital statistics using radar, seismic and geophysical equipment in order to determine the current situation with Greenland ice melting.

The team has concluded that increased temperatures in Arctic region have caused extensive melting in new upper parts of the ice sheet, and this rapid melting has generated at least double the quantity of melt water, compared with 2009 levels, which runs off the ice sheet into the Atlantic and Arctic oceans.

Dr. Hubbard stated that Greenland warming is worse than ever, and this warming effect has enhanced and extended melting into new northern and upper parts of the ice sheet generating huge quantities of melt water, which could in years to come lead to serious sea level rise.


Now, could you please name some actual names and some actual reliable data from these guys have taken huge hits to their careers to stand up for unbiased science and letting the evidence rather than PC agendas rule the conclusions?

Guys that have actually spent 5 months on the ice sheet in Greeland doing research.






 
261Boldwin
      ID: 4635123
      Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 14:46
You guys have warn me out with all the scientists I have shown you disagreeing. Just admit you only want to listen to one side and you don't believe there is another perfectly valid scientific position still in play within the scientific method at work. Don't pretend the other side doesn't exist or that they aren't scientists or that the issue is settled.
 
262Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 22:11
Don't pretend the other side doesn't exist or that they aren't scientists or that the issue is settled.

Don't pretend you're some kind of expert when your research is so lazy you link to a site that is 100% in opposition to your spin. What'd you do, google "Arctic ice not melting" and post the first thing you found? I love these so-called scientists you're enamored with, like your link to 2008:

The Unbearable Nakedness of Climate Change

Is this guy Maurizio Morabito a scientist? Uh no, he's just a hack with a website.
His info is a link to
this info, IARC-JAXA Information System.

Looking at their graph, I don't see how Morabito can claim October 2008 shows the greatest extent of Arctic sea ice ever, since Data from June 2002 to the present are included. I guess Morabito's scientific definition of "ever" is less than 9 years. Looking at the 2008 green line in October, if it is greater than the other years, it's almost impossible to tell. Cherry-picked data presented hysterically and certainly not within the scientific realm is what we have here. And, according to IARC-JAXA,

In principle, SIC data could have errors of 10% at most, particularly for the area of thin sea ice seen around the edge of sea-ice cover and melted sea ice seen in summer. Also, SIC along coastal lines could also have errors due to sub-pixel contamination of land cover in an instantaneous field of view of AMSR-E data.

JAXA, btw, stands for Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency. IARC stands for International Arctic Research Center(U of Alaska - Fairbanks).

Here's a few goodies from the

IARC website.

Reduction of Arctic Sea-Ice Amplifies Tides

NBC Learn, in partnership with the National Science Foundation, explores the impact that climate change is having on our planet. In this video, IARC's Dr. Katey Walter Anthony and IARC affiliate Dr. Vladimir Romanovsky are interviewed about permafrost, methane, and their impacts on the environment. Viewers are given an explosive demonstration.


Wait a minute. Where have we seen this before, someone linking to a site that is 100% in opposition to the spin they're trying to sell?

I'm worn out not only having to clarify what Boldwin posts, but the links he posts as well.


 
263Boldwin
      ID: 632558
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 09:27
I can handle both sides of the debate. Why can't you wrap your mind around both arguments?
 
264Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 10:05
I can handle both sides of the debate

When someone calls one side of the debate a "hoax", that statement just rings empty.

 
265Boldwin
      ID: 632558
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 10:13
I can at least understand what they are saying. You aren't even aware of the scientists on the other side of the debate.
 
266boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 11:11
It is either that they still do not fully believe science because if they would believe scientists than they would be really stupid not to act on something that could cause serious problems in years to come, or perhaps the reasons for delays and ignorance is not in not accepting the obvious but all about fossil fuels industry lobbies that still determine the moves the politicians make.

Or maybe they do believe the science and they realize that they can do nothing about it, short destabilizing the whole world. Despite what you have been lead to believe big oil does not lose out global warming reforms take hold.
 
267Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 11:31
You aren't even aware of the scientists on the other side of the debate.

What debate? My challenge was

Find me one scientist who says that Arctic ice isn't melting at a dramatic pace

You haven't. Instead you've accused me of being naive and, now, unaware. This is from someone who was so stunningly inaccurate that they felt the need to put in bold type

October 2008 has seen the fastest Arctic sea ice extent growth ever recorded

without even checking for accuracy.

The consensus among scientists and the accumulated data is that Artic ice is receding. The question remains whether this is a natural occurence or a product of ever increasing levels of greenhouse gasses. After an exhaustive search, I did find this research from two Russian scientists that comes closest to the other side of the debate of which you accused me of being unaware.

Arctic ice rebound predicted

Or,
this rather vague 10 year old article

I'm open to debating whether or not Arctic ice is receding. I'm just having a hard time finding much on the not side of things.
 
269Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 12:31
I agree, Bili. Post 263 is absolutely hilarious. It's like a boxer flat on his back, eyes swollen shut, bleeding profusely who takes out his mouth guard to ask, "do you want some more???"
 
270Boldwin
      ID: 5533360
      Wed, Apr 06, 2011, 01:45
I'm open to debating whether or not Arctic ice is receding. I'm just having a hard time finding much on the not side of things. - PV

Besides the graph of arctic sea ice which isn't plummetting from a high in the past to a low in the present. You mean besides the evidence.

Ok, besides finding one scientist, besides finding a scientist every year pointing out ice is getting along just fine in the polar caps, what is the new requirement before you see it?
 
272Building 7
      ID: 541057215
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 13:10
Penn State investigation of Michael Mann should be reopened

Money more important to Penn State than the truth?


”It looks like Penn State deliberately covered up the current pedophile sex scandal involving the school’s athletic department for years,” says reader James Stoffaire. “Then what are we to make of Penn State’s investigation and exoneration of Michael Mann? Penn State investigators cleared Mann of charges of unethical behavior in his climate change research.”

“Penn State has lost all credibility, and clearly can’t be trusted to investigate itself or anyone connected to Penn State,” says Stoffaire. “The investigation of Michael Mann should be reopened by investigators independent of Penn State.”
....................

Two days ago, icecap.us posted an opinion piece by Steve McIntyre, who originally blew the whistle on Mann’s deceptive hockey-stick graph.

McIntyre pointed out that Penn State President Graham Spanier had been fired from his $813,000/year job for failing to ensure that a proper investigation was carried out in respect to pedophilia allegations in the university’s hugely profitable football program.

That’s the same Spanier who failed to ensure proper investigation of Climategate emails, says McIntyre.
 
273Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 14:17
Is the athletic department in charge of climate research now?
 
274Boldwin
      ID: 1510511410
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 19:07
The president of the university is responsible for one of the most ridiculed scientists in all of climategate collecting ill repute to his institution.

The same president who allowed Sandusky to collect ill repute to his institution.
 
275Frick
      ID: 387512315
      Tue, Nov 22, 2011, 11:27
Pacific Ocean Data Gathering

It will be interesting to see the results of the data gathered from this project. It is amazing to think about how much this could increase our understanding of the oceans.
 
276Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 15:38
So anyway, last night at dinner my wife and I were having a discussion about Muslims vs Christians and the effect of different extremist groups on the world. Somehow that conversation morphed into an environmental conversation and I had am amazing moment of clarity.

Vegetarians are bad for the climate and ozone. They do not eat beef which comes from cows whos flatulents are a known source of methane which is a known greenhouse gas which helps destroy our ozone layer. So if you want to save the environment and reduce methane emissions, eat cows.

All because of a religious discussion.
 
277sarge33rd
      ID: 510433010
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 15:44
So what you are really saying, is Hindus are bad for the globe?
 
278biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 15:48
Im a huge carnivore, but of we stop eating cows, we stop raising cows, and that is a continuum.
 
279sarge33rd
      ID: 510433010
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 15:50
I used to be a huge carnivore, then lost about 35-40 lbs. Still, I'm a pretty good sized carnivore.
 
280Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 16:12
277 - wow, with everything involved in our conversation, I can't believe I missed that.
 
281Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 16:26
Heh. Actually, that's a bit backwards--you want to reduce cow farts, then shrink the market for cows.
 
282Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 16:37
The market for beef is pretty destructive, not necessarily because of the flatulence, but because of the massive amount of food they consume which could be sold away cheaply to humans who need it. Not nearly as bad anywhere else where cows are grass fed, but almost all American beef is grain fed.
 
283boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 17:15
yeah if you want to do the world a favor become vegan and quit consumption of meat. In general the raising of more animals is harder on the environment then growing more crops.
 
284Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 19:41
So, we all bypass the gas pump that reads 'may contain ethanol' then?
 
285boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 16:25
yeah until they come up with better way to make ethanol.
 
286Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 16:15
“The supposed ‘consensus’ on man-made global warming is facing an inconvenient challenge after the release of new temperature data showing the planet has not warmed for the past 15 years. The figures suggest that we could even be heading for a mini ice age to rival the 70-year temperature drop that saw frost fairs held on the Thames in the 17th Century. Based on readings from more than 30,000 measuring stations, the data was issued last week without fanfare by the Met Office and the University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit. It confirms that the rising trend in world temperatures ended in 1997.” - Mail Online



May I suggest an ice sculpture of Algore would be big fun at the frost fair.

Man I get tired of always being right.
 
287sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 17:23
Man I get tired of always being right.

WAY more than a little premature. And as has been stated repeatedly, an ice age is the predictable result of warming.
 
288Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 17:38
I'll file your helpful comment along with PD's suggestion that a sea of red ink is the surest road to financial recovery.
 
289sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 18:24
That isnt what he said. But then, since he doesnt agree with you like a blind and unthinking atomaton; you have to misinterpret and misapply what he does say; just to make your own ego feel less set upon.
 
290Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 18:25
Man I get tired of always being right.

la la la

Hubris...also hybris, means extreme haughtiness, pride or arrogance. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities...
 
291Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 23:11
And as has been stated repeatedly, an ice age is the predictable result of warming.

So, global warming causes warmer temperatures, and also causes an ice age? That's just mind-boggling.
 
292sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 23:32
The warming B7, melts the Polar Caps and ice bergs. This in turn, desalinates the Atlantic Ocean. Salt levels drop below a given point, and the Gulf Stream (which brings warm air/water to the North Sea), is disrupted and destroyed. (The salt content, is what creates somehow, the return flow or the under current well below the ocean surface whereby waters return f the N Sea to the Gulf of Mexico...gather heat as it travels south, rises to the surface and heads back north). No Gulf Stream heat distribution, and viola.....ice age enroute. (Over simplified, but the science is fairly well documented and widely known)
 
293Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 08:11
I don't suppose you are actually suggesting that the conveyor belt has anything to do with the cooling for the last 15 years?

You know, the cooling you couldn't see in the graphs because your side was cherry-picking the period length?

Can you point to anyone, even financially self-interested crackpots like Algore suggesting that the conveyor belt has slowed and is causing global cooling?
 
294Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 08:22
Re: 292

This is where I disagree with the climate scientists. After our voila, ice age? What happens? Is it an ice age that lasts for 10k years or is it a brief cooling that leads to something else happening. The cooling should promote ice cap growth which would reverse all of the steps you outlined above.

Our climate is amazingly complex and I think it is naive to think that we have enough of an understanding to predict what is going to happen.
 
295Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 08:45
I think it is naive to think that we have enough of an understanding to predict what is going to happen. - Frick

Do you recognize acceptance of the AGW meme is driven by computer modeling?

And do you therefore discount AGW 'consensus'?

 
296Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 11:11
There is a difference between realizing that our climate is changing and understanding what is driving those changes. Are humans having an impact, I think we are. How much of an impact is something I don't think that we know.

I discount reports that state they can accurately predict what is going to happen. I also discount reports that (and this could be the result of reporters spinning a headline for sensationalism) state everything AGW is the result of human actions.

That being said we should take steps to try and limit our impact on the environment. That include some government regulation, CAFE standards are a good idea in my opinion.
 
297sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 13:08
Agree with 296, 100%.

Nowhere I am aware of Frick, have they said how long the ice age would last.(assuming the failkure of the Gulf Stream) Most geologic "ages" however, are multiple hundreds of human generations in length. *shrug*

I dont know how much impact we are having, but I do not doubt we are having a detrimental one. I'll leave the science of it, to those who are scientists.
 
298Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 13:14
I always thought an ice age was the result of cooler temperatures. In fact, that is what the definition of an ice age is.
 
299Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 13:25
It's not quite that simple, B7.

The earth has self-correcting mechanisms that might seem counter-intuitive.
 
300Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 13:29
Things have changed since I went to school.
 
301Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 13:34
Relax B7. Sarge was just grasping at straws.
 
302sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 13:45
The cooler temps, are the result of the ice age, not vice versa. And the time lag between events, is far from certain.

Ice bergs and polar caps ARE melting. That is not in dispute.

How much must they dillute the Atlantic, to disrupt the Gulf Stream?

How long will said disruptiuon take?

If disrupted, how long until the temps begin to fall?

How long after that, before the glaciers begin to return?

It isnt likely to happen in our lifetimes(from what I have read), but who knows about our kids or grandchildren? The later in the stages it gets before we act, the more difficult (impossible??) it will be to so much as halt, let alone reverse.
 
303sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 14:11
NASA link

Regardless of ones thoughts/opinions re AGW, the photo of the polar caps in 1979 and 2003, show a dramatic reduction in ice. VAST areas of ice, that are gone. That is a lot of 'fresh water' to dillute the oceans salt level. How much does it take to change the currents? I dont know. But when an ice area that is continental in size, melts away, ...
 
304sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 14:16
Rutgers researchers jet stream input

Gulf Stream is one piece of the puzzle, Jet Stream is another. No one part is 100% responsible for the anticipated changes. Like a puzzle with various interlocking pieces, many elements are impacted by the singular fact of disappearing polar ice.
 
305boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 15:06
I have one question about this theory and that is if melting polar caps are going to return Europe to temperatures of last ice age, when northern europe was covered with glaciers, then won't the ice cap just refreeze?
 
306sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 15:59
I would like to think so, but after how long boikin? How long to "refreeze" and then, how long does it stay glacial?
 
307boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 16:17
Don't know just asking. Seems a bit like a feed back mechanism going on here that should in theory keep things in balance, so it takes it 20 years to go one way probably 20 to go back the other way.
 
308sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 19:03
I dont recall in my HS or College courses, of any "ice age", with a 20 yr duration. Or any other geoic age which wasnt measured in multiple thousands of years.
 
309sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 19:17
Continuing boikin with your theory of "equal time, equilibrium", how long was the last ice age, and how long ago was it?

wiki entry on "ice age"/glacial periods

Last glacial period, was approx 20,000 years ago according to that wiki entry. A quick skimming, doesnt reveal a duration for it. So under "natural" means, when would the next one be due? How much is man impacting the climate? That we are, I do not believe is truly in question. Even B I think would admit, that the vast emiossions from automobiles (though he hates bikes), can not be "good" for the atmosphere.
 
310Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 19:24
In other words, we aren't going to savor the I told you so...
 
311sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 19:26
lol bili. Savor it? I doubt, our species would survive it.
 
312Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 21:33
Even B I think would admit, that the vast emiossions from automobiles (though he hates bikes), can not be "good" for the atmosphere.

It will be no time at all on a geologic timescale that nanotech atom-by-atom constructed, quantum effect, phonon boosted, solar-powered, clean fuel-cell boosted cars worthy of the investment will make us forget the internal combustion engine powered car. In the meantime the plants are getting a tasty aperitif.

And all this hysteria will be seen as a foolish anti-science taxing scheme based on misleading snapshots taken in the natural ebb and flow of long roughly 30/60/90 year cycles of sun, ocean, forest and plankton, and yes ice-cover that barely feel a tickle from mankind.
 
313sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 22:17
and you B, in your unfettered chae after one more dollar for the quarterly profit report, are willing to wager your very species survival on that?
 
314Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 04:31
I'd wager it all on AGW being total fabricated junk science.

 
315boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 11:05
RE 309, look on the bright side we will not have to worry about rising oceans any more.
 
316sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:21
314...Boldwin, there is no arguing, that the Earth *IS* warming. The POlar ice disappearing, is reality, not Hollywood special FX. Regardless to what cause you attribute that disappearance, even if it is an entirely natural cycle which has seen ice/glacial periods come and go; we can not survive the inevitable result of a glacial period.

Now, what do we do about it?
 
317boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:33
we can not survive the inevitable result of a glacial period. I think some cave men would like to disagree with you on that one.
 
318Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:43
Elect newt, and the Human race survives on moon base alpha.
 
319sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:53
317.....if it is global, then no, we would not survive. It depends on the eras time length, and how close to the equator the glaciers span. If they reach that far with any density, then no. We would not survive, 5,000 years even, without crops.
 
320Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 13:22
Didn't the last Ice Age help change the environment that led to the development of Homo Sapiens? An Ice Age would lead to drastic changes and would most likely lead to a drastic reduction in human population levels, but it wouldn't result in the Earth being entombed in Ice. Places like the Sahara desert would return to a vastly different habitable area. link
 
321sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 14:41
a short, in geologic terms...20,000 years is short, would not entomb the Earth in ice, no. But what if it were a true ice age and not a glacial period? Duration then, could push 100,000+ years and the Earth could thus be entombed.

The truth is, we dont know how long or how bad it would get. We DO know, it wouldnt be at all good. SO...we can err on the side of self preservation (my preference) or we can err on the side of next quarters greater ROI. To me, since you cant eat dollar bills and survive that way, the choice is an easy one. We act...NOW.
 
322Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 15:32
Now, what do we do about it?

There is no 'it' there. It's just another point on the graph in the ebb and flow of the cycles.
 
323Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 16:50
The truth is, we dont know how long or how bad it would get. We DO know, it wouldnt be at all good. SO...we can err on the side of self preservation (my preference) or we can err on the side of next quarters greater ROI. To me, since you cant eat dollar bills and survive that way, the choice is an easy one. We act...NOW.

We don't understand the problem completely, so we should start taking actions immediately. That seems like a terrible idea to me.
 
324Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 17:01
We don't understand the problem completely - FRICK

Completely??? For all we know we are right around the corner from a Maunder Minimum...or Global Warming.

Reread the link in #286.
 
325sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 17:30
depending on the action Frick, it could well be a terrible thing to do. Other actions, not so much. For ex, we could in fat reduce our carbon footprint. (I know, its an over used term, but it applies in this case) We could take real steps, to accept higher cost, and lower rates of pollution/contamination. We could more heavily invest in renewable energy research, better battery technologies (not just for auto purposes but for electrical storage purposes. How can we make "a" battery, hold more "juice", for longer times and give a more efficient discharge of that energy when called upon?)

These kinds of things, come with a dollar cost that is immediate, and a return in ecologic preservation that is delayed. The sooner we start, the sooner we realize those benefits. A FULL understanding of the problem isnt essential, to these actions.
 
326Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 18:54
I wonder why no one is researching better batteries?
 
327Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 19:20
It's the libruls fault for subsidizing all those solar powered chainsaws.
 
328Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 19:44
See
 
329Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 19:49
Heh.
 
330boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 11:48
Re 325: I can not disagree with that statement but the problem is not maximizing ROI, the problem is "We could take real steps, to accept higher cost" try and sell that one the average person. Do you think a company has a problem selling environmentally friendly products, the problem is customers have a problem paying extra for them. Here's the problem in the occupy wall street thread you have people demanding higher standards of living and the climate-gate thread you have people demanding lower standards of living. If you can reconcile the two you probably have campaign platform.
 
331sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 12:41
OWS is not about a higher standard of living. Its about how the distribution of wealth, has grown ENTIRELY one sided. (and dont give me that govt redistribution BS anyone. The last 10 years we have seen under reguloated markets and fraud, result in VAST redistribution of this nations money.) CEO pay vs workjer pay 20 yrs ago vs CEO pay and worler pay today/ Look it up. The mulipliers used between the two, have grown exponentially. The quintessential "haves" have damn near all ofit today, while the "have nots", aint got sh*t. That disparity, purely greed driven and utterly lacking in any moral grounding, is what OWS is all about. Not about standards of living.

As for accepting the costs, I'm not necessariuly referring to consumer costs. I'm referring to accepting that we will have toi subsidize what is right now, non profitable forms of alternative energy. Develop an infrastructure and get that in place AS we research and bring the technology "on line" in a sustainable fashion. That means, government spending on programs which are not popular with the "me fkn first" crowd aka the GOP.
 
332boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 13:40
it is about standard living, no one complains about people being to rich if they are happy where they are at.

customer costs and subsidizease are one the same economically either the customer pays more through higher prices for goods or the pay more through their taxes supporting lower prices. The difference is that in one case the customer gets to make the choice and the other government does. Don't read this and assume that I saying this is bad.

I would suggest that a better idea would be use government investment instead of subsidizeases, yes it has proven a failure at times but at the same time if you at the fact that the governments gets none of its money back when subsidizes an industry an investment that might pay back sounds like a better choice.
 
333sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 13:53
I would tend to agree with the idea behind an ivestment vs a subsidy, however we saw the spin against General Motors with that very thing recently. (Government Motors, remember?) In our free enterprise system, the government simply isnt allowed to profit from an investment. Ostensibly, to prevent conflict of interest, given the government is the body that makes and imposes industry wide regulation. It's svery much, a multi-edged blade, when one starts talking about govt investments in business, industry and/or rsearch.
 
334boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 15:44
I think there are two problems 1) GM is not the same situation 2) companies that are getting subsidized now need to outed more.
 
335Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 16:10
no one complains about people being to rich if they are happy where they are at

Not necessarily. People complain about cheaters and those who rig the system all the time regardless of how they feel about themselves.

The root of this is that the system is, in fact, rigged, which limits upward mobility. It isn't about people being jealous.
 
336boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 16:46
The root of this is that the system is, in fact, rigged, which limits upward mobility

if that was true then top 1% would stay the top 1% generation after generation and that is not true. While saying that I do agree that in many ways the system is rigged but it is rigged in ways that you don't seem to care about, like why is it that if I go to Harvard law I am set for life while if go to state law I am lucky to get a job even if my knowledge of the law is same. Or why is it that an attractive person is more likely to get a job than unattractive one?

 
337Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 16:51
We've got study after study that wealth concentration limits economic mobility. It isn't just that people are getting wealthy, it is that the wealthy are owning more and more assets--overall wealth is concentrated into fewer hands.

 
338boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 17:57
Are you sure about that? If you look at it from the bottom up the US has poor track record of people moving out the bottom to the top, but if you look at it from the top down the US about an equal rate of people who stay at the top as rest of western Europe.



Social moblity across nations
 
339Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 18:13
Yeah--in fact, I just read an article in the fall on it (somewhere on my desk). I'll dig it out and see if there is an online version.
 
340biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 20:40
Alan Krueger, of the Council of Economic advisers, gave a speech on the subject a few weeks ago.

There are only 13 slides, and they are easy to understand, and back up PDs point with solid, irrefutable facts.

I find slide 8 to be the money slide, so to speak. Even compared to supposedly aristocratic and highly classed societies in Europe, we are far more unequal and inelastic. And only getting more and more so.

 
342sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 21:34
*self edited for a crrection*

I dont believe, anyone can honestly argue that wealth distribution in this country isn't almost entirely one sided. Got lots of money to start with? Then you can get lots more without much trouble. Dont have lots to start with? You're pretty much, though not necessarily, SOL.
 
343Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 05:18
All that ignores the difficulty the left has created for the poor half the population of ever leaving the welfare plantation. They looooves them some inelasticity.
 
344DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 09:42
Not one billionth as much as you love creating fictional belief systems for your enemies, Mr. Strawman.
 
345sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 12:29
343...clarify please. Are you demonizing Democrats, or the Republican policies of 2000-2008, which led to the financial crisis, growing nrs of poor, record nrs of foreclosures, the highest unemployment since the Great Depression, etc?
 
346Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 12:32
He's knocking the Left, using the Right's current meme that helping the poor fosters an unbreakable poverty sustenance dependence.

Despite all evidence.
 
347sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 13:00
(yeah, but the actions of the GOP 2000-2008, created more poor than anyone could even BEGIN to alledge the Left of fostering)
 
348boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 14:47
Re 339 and 340 did you even read the link? Is there a link for that slide, It appears to be nicely biased since it does actually show what point USA is at 2010 it just guesses based on the regression line of 1985 data, nice miss use of data there.
 
349Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 15:19
I did. It projects past 2010 using 2010 data. Why do you call it biased?
 
350boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 16:16
Is there a link to the data? It is biased because you only added the 2010 US point, but claim that shows a comparison between other countries.
 
351Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 16:27
The data? Are you planning and do a reanalysis of a respected economist's models?
 
352Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 08:13
I agree with boikin. The chart only shows the shift in the US and doesn't show how other countries have shifted. It also has a very small subset of countries that are being compared. Why were those selected? Those two points call into question what the motivation was for the presenter, clarity to not overwhelm the viewer or cherry picking data points that emphasized the presenters point.

Some of the Gini coeffcients don't line up exactly to the Gini coefficients that I saw on wikipedia, but I'm willing to put that down to wikipedia.
 
353boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 11:21
re 351: no wasn't planning on it(unless i thought it was wrong), all I was asking for was where did the numbers come from I mean just posting a graph means nothing.
 
354Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 12:06
I didn't just post the graph. You can dig as far as you like to satisfy your questions.
 
355sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 17:03
Satellites used to measure ice loss

According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, all 11 years in the 21st century so far, including 2011, rank among the 13 warmest in the 132-year temperature record.

Hmmmm, wonder what the "betting odds" would be, on only 2 of the 121 years prior to the past 11, being warmer than the coldest of those past 11? But, its all false....yeah right.
 
356Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 17:10
And yet the center of the AGW hoax [and the climate-gate e-mails], the Hadley center quietly released global data denying GW over the last 11 years.
 
357sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 22:32
The ice caps are receding....fact.

The past 11 years, appear in the top 13 of the warmest years on record...fact

Sea levels are rising, from ice cap/glacial melt....fact

Global warming is happening...fact

B denies the above.....fact
 
359Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 22:42
Based on readings from more than 30,000 measuring stations, the data was issued last week without fanfare by the Met Office and the University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit. It confirms that the rising trend in world temperatures ended in 1997.
That is data from the people who produced the AGW hoax in the first place.

Thems the facts even they can't dispute.
 
360sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Mon, Feb 13, 2012, 00:10
you better read that article again. Slower and with more deliberation this time. The "halt" in warming, is attributed to a significant impact from the sun coupled with minimal impact from still rising CO2 levels and negligible impact from ocean water temps. Any of those 3 factors being given the wrong variable value, and the equation you are counting in, becomes yesterdays garbage.

In short, more time and data is needed to be definitive, but then...I dont think that has been disputed.
 
361Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 13, 2012, 10:13
Yeah, I've already explained all that. The sun/cosmic ray part of the equation apparently swamps CO2's effect. The sun unusual behavior has been making global cooling inevitable and I called it so before the AGW hoaxsters had to admit it.
 
362sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Mon, Feb 13, 2012, 13:07
^ yet more, buffoonery.
 
363sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 14:01
The 'secret, corporate-funded' plan to make Americans doubt climate change


The war over climate change flared up again this week, after an anonymous tipster leaked a trove of documents from the Chicago-based Heartland Institute, a libertarian group known, among other things, for opposing regulation of greenhouse gasses. In a sort of funhouse-mirror image of "Climategate" — the giant 2009 leak of supposedly conspiratorial emails among climate scientists — the Heartland document dump outlines one group's efforts to sow doubts about the scientific consensus that humans are dangerously changing the long-term climate through gas emissions.
 
364boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 14:15
There is so many interesting items in that article I do not know where to begin:

a)most of the big companies that donated to them don't seem to be directly effected by climate change laws if anything I would dare say some would benefit.

b)The mystery donor.

c)Where is big oil?

Where B7 I feel he could explain this all.
 
365Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 16:58
Fisking of a forged document slipped in the Heartland release.

Other than this one document which takes clips from other authentic documents and adds a slightly sinister tweak here and there, there is nothing in the release otherwise but innocuous fundraising documents.

All the other documents are standard in house 'print to PDF' documents with full meta. The one forgery is scanned, no meta ID info, untraceable, no sender, no list of receivers, awkwardly worded, composed with the mindset of...
Basically, it reads like it was written from the secret villain lair in a Batman comic. By an intern.

It's a super-handy roadmap to all the most incendiary portions of the other documents, and it contains absolutely nothing that does not serve that purpose--no formulaic self-puffery, no mentions of problems that you would think a legitimate memo would have covered, like the precipitous cuts in their global warming programs that they were forced to undertake when their anonymous donor delivered less cash than expected in 2011. It reads like it was written for climate activists.

I can believe that someone at Heartland is going around clipping the content of other documents into some sort of a strategy memo. I find it harder to believe that they are rewriting those activities to make themselves sound more evil. Have you ever heard anyone describe themselves as "undermining" something? It's a word that implies sneaking and underhanded behavior, which is why only bad movie villains usually apply it to their own activities.

Note also that whoever wrote the memo has hashed the math--they added in the $88,000 for internal resources twice. And they changed "scientists" to "writers", which is not consistent with how these same people are described in the authenticated documents. It is, on the other hand, consistent with how climate activists view the kind of people who work for Heartland. Which makes it feel as if the paragraph had been written by someone who couldn't quite bring themselves to deploy Heartland's self-approving language.

The next section involves external personnel:
---
To start with, why does the document feel a need to provide a bio for Wojick--who works closely enough with Heartland to have a bio on their website--but not for all the climate scientists and writers that it cites in this section?

Then there's the tone. I have never heard a warming skeptic refer to themselves as "anti-climate", or to their opponents as "communicators". And believe me, I get chewed out by climate skeptics with great regularity.

And in a way I find it hard to put my finger on, the worldview just feels . . . off. There are a bunch of little things--this is the only document in which the word "warmist" appears, for example. But it's much more than that. It's too nice to opponents ("high profile", "communicator"). And it views climate skeptics as far more powerful than they (in my experience) actually feel, and opponents as combating their messages, rather than the other way around. It seems to fundamentally misunderstand the paranoia of a movement that sees itself as under siege.

The commenters who attack me on my global warming views do not see us as equals doing battle on the plains of Mordor. They think of me as having been captured by a dubious consensus that is manufactured and maintained by social pressure, the general human tendency to alarmism about complex threats, and the self-interest of a few scientists--and in truth, they can point to some instances, like the longstanding belief that humans had 48 chromosomes, which were maintained against all evidence by a very powerful social dynamic. Obviously, I disagree with their analysis, but I do understand their reasoning process--and that they have a reasoning process. I don't feel like the writer of this memo understands either. It's more like they sat down at the computer and said, "What would I write IF I WERE AS CRAZY AS AGW SKEPTICS?"

And the stuff about Forbes is sheer lunacy, on multiple levels. The idea that conservatives view Forbes as their beachhead for control of world opinion is . . . well, I spend a fair amount of time with conservatives and libertarians, including those who work for think tanks, and I have never once heard them express such an opinion. - Megan McArdle, a senior editor for The Atlantic
 
366Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Tue, Feb 21, 2012, 18:31
I'm not sure about everyone else's area of the country, but it has been exceptionally warm this year. I typically don't see my yard from December to mid March. I was in Wisconsin over the weekend and they have almost no snow as well.

I would say we could blame global warming, but the mantra the last few years has been climate change, which results in more extreme winters.

I believe that the climate is changing, but I don't believe that we have any reasonable knowledge of how much it is man-related. I think we have even less knowledge of what the results of the change will be.
 
367sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Tue, Feb 21, 2012, 19:39
I believe that the climate is changing, but I don't believe that we have any reasonable knowledge of how much it is man-related. I think we have even less knowledge of what the results of the change will be.

An absolutely true statement, with which I cna agree 100%.

I just think, the the whole atmospheric damage thing, with mans massive consumption of fossil fuels; is too logical to ignore. We know the atmosphere is central to protecting our species from various cosmic elements; so.... protecting that atmosphere only makes sense.
 
368Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 12, 2012, 16:41
The climate-gate network.
 
369Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Sun, May 13, 2012, 11:11
So scientists were e-mailing each other?

Conspiracy!
 
370Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sun, May 13, 2012, 15:29
When they are conspiring to commit scientific fraud, break the law and rig the peer review process, you betcha.
 
371Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Thu, May 31, 2012, 17:41
According to the study, published earlier this week, “Members of the public with the highest degrees of scientific literacy and technical reasoning capacity were not the most concerned about climate change.”

Indeed, “As respondents’ science-literacy scores increased, concern with climate change decreased.”

It seems the media needs to reverse whom it deems “anti-science” and “science deniers.” - Forbes Magazine discussing Yale study
 
372Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 14:18
Uncanny Parallels Connect the Jerry Sandusky & Michael Mann Cover Ups By John O¡¦Sullivan LLB, BA, PGCE

Excerpts:

Disgraced Penn State University is mired deeper in scandal as eerie parallels are
drawn with their cover up of the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse scandal and their
apparent whitewash investigation of climate professor, Michael Mann.
After a week when the Attorney General brands Penn State’s former in house
attorney a liar and two university officials are indicted on cover up crimes, calls are
being made for the re-opening of the university’s investigation that cleared global
warming doomsayer, Dr. Michael Mann of any misconduct in the Climategate
scandal.
For those who don’t remember, Professor Mann was both the UN’s and Penn State’s
academic golden boy of climate science bringing glory and financial reward to them
just as famously as Jerry Sandusky did with the football team. In each scandal Penn
State president, Graham Spanier appeared on the horizon, each time Spanier took
the accused men under his protective wing and defended them to the hilt.
Sandusky’s child sex story rightly shocked America, but anyone who examines the
correlation between the Mann and Sandusky cases will feel a similar unnerving
sense of disquiet.
Mann, the author of the discredited “hockey-stick” graph, provided the junk science
that allowed the UN and global warming policymakers to claim a rapid, recent rise in
the Earth’s temperature magically making the Medieval Warm Period disappear. Last
year Penn State President, Graham Spanier outrageously cleared Mann of
fraudulently cherry picking tree-ring proxy temperature data despite compelling
evidence he was guilty.
At the time Spanier lied to the Board of Trustees when he claimed Penn State had
”spent hundreds of hours studying documents and interviewing people and looking at
issues from all sides.”
.........................
Case Similarities Point to Systemic Cover Up
As I have said in previous articles, Mann was never exonerated because the charges
against him were never investigated. In both the Mann and Sandusky controversies
the following points about Spanier¡¦s stewardship are equally valid:

* Both the Sandusky and Mann cover-ups involved a poorly executed
investigation.
* Both investigations saw the president making untrue statements.
* Both involve an ethos that successful men can do no wrong; and the more
famous and powerful they are, the more immune they are from scrutiny.
* Both demonstrate a strong inclination to circle the wagons and seemingly
show no interest in truth or justice.
* Both involve extensive evidence going back years from a number of different
sources and involving a variety of issues which should have raised red flags.
* Spanier¡¦s investigations¡¦ never interviewed witnesses against Mann or
Sandusky
 
373sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 14:47

 
374Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:01
Michael Mann threatens Steyn with suit regarding his comparison of him with Jerry Sandusky.
 
375Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:05
Oh yes, please let's expose Michael Mann in court.
 
376sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:15
expose him for what B? A scientist, vs a political schill?
 
377Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:19
Oh yeah, rigging the peer review process, hiding the data, inventing an imaginary ruinously expensive hoax out of whole cloth, these are all sooo very scientific.
 
378sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 16:16
except B, that multiple investgations, have determined that the allegations you continue to make, are without basis in fact. Not that the truth would interest a fine, upstanding Christian man like yourself.
 
379Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 16:36
Yes. Penn State had an "investigation" of this. That would be the same investigation lead by the Universiry president that got fired for failing to conduct a propoer investigation of Sandusky.

Since they failed in that investigation because it would have lead to bad publicity for their university, it is reasonable to conclude that they also failed to find fault with the climate fraudster (Mann), because it would have lead to bad publicity for their university.

Since Penn State cannot be trusted to conduct their own investigation, all recent investigations by the disgraced former president should be re-opened. This is not an R vs. D issue, this is basic common sense.
 
380Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 16:48
Actually, Penn State didn't really do an investigation of the Sandusky crimes. According to the Freeh report, the University failed to investigate (which, as you know, is the opposite of investigating).

 
381Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 18:38
You guys DO know that 'blue ribbon panels' are always set up to fool the public into believing something that isn't true, right? Anyone believing Mann has been absolved of scientific fraud is living in la-la land.
 
382sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 18:48
translation: "anyone (regardless of their qualifications) who disagrees with me (regardless of my lack of qualifications), on any topic (no matter how ignorant I may be on said topic), is living in la-la-land"
 
383Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 19:10
Anyone believing Mann has been absolved of scientific fraud is living in la-la land.

That wasn't the question. The comparison was that PSU did an investigation of both Sandusky and Mann and covered them both up.

My point was that PSU didn't do an investigation of Sandusky--that was the whole point, in fact, that they didn't do anything about the allegations.

I have no idea about the quality of the Mann investigation, which wasn't really the point.
 
384Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 20:15
What is the difference? In both cases they turned a blind eye to professional misconduct in order to save face for the institution.
 
385DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 21:37
The difference is that in one case, someone exercised poor judgement and ethics in some emails (which didn't actually affect the scientific conclusions they reached, by the way), and in the other case, a bunch of children were raped.

I can totally see how you'd equate those two things. They're, like, virtually identical.
 
386sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 21:39
OK B, in an effort to be entirely fair to you, I will use the :Ben Franklin" method of comparing validity of claims:

Dr Mann | Boldwin
_______|_________



Going to start with Boldwins side of the table, and list all of his scientific achievements, publications, etc:

...

OK, now for Dr Mann's side:

2012 Awarded the Hans Oeschger Medal of the European Geosciences Union

2008 Inducted as a Fellow of the American Geophysical Union

2008 Profiled in American Environmental Leaders From Colonial Times to the Present

2008 Website “RealClimate.org” (co-founded by M. Mann) chosen as one of top 15 “green” websites by Time Magazine (April 2008)

2007 Co-awarded (along with several hundred other scientists) the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize for involvement in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (lead author of chapter 2 of the Third Assessment Report, 2001)

2006 American Geophysical Union Editors’ Citation for Excellence in Refereeing (for ‘Geophysical Research letters’)

2005 Website “RealClimate.org” (co-founded by M. Mann) chosen as one of top 25 “Science and Technology” websites by Scientific American

2005 John Russell Mather Paper award for 2005 by the Association of American Geographers [for article: Frauenfeld, O., Davis, R.E., and Mann, M.E., A Distinctly Interdecadal Signal of Pacific Ocean-Atmosphere Interaction, Journal of Climate 18, 1709-1718, 2005]

2002 Named by Scientific American as one of 50 leading visionaries in science and technology

2002 Outstanding Scientific Paper award for 2002 by NOAA Office of Oceanic and Atmospheric Research (OAR) [for article: Delworth, T.L., Mann, M.E., Observed and Simulated Multidecadal Variability in the Northern Hemisphere, Climate Dynamics, 16, 661-676, 2000]

2002 Article [Mann et al, "Global-scale temperature patterns and climate forcing over the past six centuries", Nature, 392, 779-787, 1998] selected for 'fast moving fronts' by Institute for Scientific Information (ISI)

2002 Selected as one of 10 'Mead Honored Faculty', University of Virginia

1998 Council of Graduate Schools' Distinguished Dissertation Award, nominated

1997 Phillip M. Orville Prize for outstanding dissertation in the earth sciences, Yale University

1996 Alexander Hollaender Distinguished Postdoctoral Fellowship (DOE)

1989 Josiah Willard Gibbs Prize for outstanding research and scholarship in Physics, Yale University


Any other questions?


 
387Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 21:48
You forgot, Mann won't reveal his data even under a court order, Britain's version of our FOIA.

You forgot Mann isn't trying to win the global warming debate with science. He is trying to win it with dirty behind the scenes politics.

You forgot the many times he revealed in his own e-mails by what a tenuous thread he is hanging.
 
388Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 21:56
What is the difference?

The difference is this:

Penn State did not do an investigation of Sandusky.

Penn State did do an investigation of Mann.

The new meme is: Mann is just like Sandusky, since both investigations were covered up.

Do you see? There was no investigation of Sandusky, so the comparison is invalid.

Note (and this is very important): I'm not making a value judgement of Mann, his work, or the "cover up."
 
389sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 22:14
You B are not qualified to question his science. Nor am I qualified to defend it. You have displayed, a propensity, for taking the random word of nutjobs, more driven by politics than science, law or much of anything else, repeatedly in the past.

Undeniably, the majority of science does not question that GW is occuring.

Undeniably, the majority of science does not question that man has an impact.

The remaining questions are, (1) how much of an impact and most importantly (2) How can we have a BENEFICIAL vs detrimental impact?

Your "side", takes the view that next quarters P&K is the overriding concern. Never mind, that with an ice age, P&L statements become a little less than worthless. Never mind that the polar icecaps have receded vast distances, never mind that glaciers are dropping off chunks the size of Manhattan. Never mind that glacial melt off, has changed climates on local levels, all across the globe. You ignore what is happening, in your never ending quest for one more dollar.

One can only wonder when, you will finally admit that you worship, that very same dollar. (how else can you put it before the possible destruction of your very species?)
 
390Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 22:26
Unlike you, I am very confident in my overview of proper science and proper scientific conduct.

The global warming hoax is simply a transparent hoax to anyone who understands:

proper scientific conduct,

how scientists are corrupted,

the state of scientific knowlege and certainty in the global warming area (early early early...a backwater of science barely mature enuff to be called a science),

the state of computer weather modelling (this is the area that has most convinced scientists in unrelated fields and it is just ludicrously unreliable, frequently falsified),

the testimony of scientists of such high reputation that they just don't care where the fortunes of political winds are blowing and the consequences of bucking the peer review mafia clearly rigged by Mann and co.
 
391Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 22:48
Further the Sarge's of the world like to point the finger at deniers as interested in money. Well sure, no one like to be taken to the cleaners for no good reason...

...but the real finger of greed needs to be pointed at UN insiders who are playing the same corrupt money/power grubbing shenanigans they always do.

They are out to become institutionally the weather tax collector and personally the Enron of weather.
 
392sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 23:10
ahhh, the UN. How long has it been since you pulled out that boogeyman? Week? Two?
 
393Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 23:23
A common meme. As it the idea that all climate scientists are in it for the money.
 
394sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 23:30
sleight of hand. When the Rep talking points begin to unravel, "Hey look....a boogeyman". Seems to be their M.O.
 
395Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 23:37
Rig the peer review process so they can't get published without the mafia's nod, rig the grant-making so they can't work without the mafia's nod, threaten to actually prosecute deniers...yeah, it's all about the science for Michael Mann.
 
396Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 23:42
That's kinda what consensus looks like, actually.
 
397sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 23:46
Here is the trouble with your claims B. I and I doubt anyone else here, doubts or denies that you are widely read in science. That you read more science, than most of us. That Ill grant you. HOWEVER, you have never ever once, not ever, given the "left" credit for getting anything right at all. And trust me, neither side is 'right; every time, and neither side is wrong every time. UNLESS< your name is Boldwin. then the left is always wrong...even if/when the evidence says otherwise. Just need to find someone like O'Keefe, or FOX, to feed your unbridled hatred...and you gloat in your continued "rightness". Problem is, you arent 'right'. You're just a bullheaded old coot.
 
398Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 00:41
being widely read in any given topic is not evidence that someone is knowledgeable in that topic, or even remotely intelligent.

it just means they're widely read in that topic.
 
399Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 07:36
...which leads to becoming knowledgeable in that topic, or even remotely intelligent.
 
400Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 09:56
Boldwin took himself out of anything resembling remotely intelligent on this topic by constantly inserting words like "hoax" and "mafia" similar to the way some have taken themselves out of the realm of intelligent conversation by claiming "settled science."

It's hardly settled.

However, there's no dispute that over a century of ever-increasing release of pollutants into the air, land and water has had negative effects, sometimes devastating, on the planet's eco-systems. With population estimates expected to continue to explode over the next few decades, it seems to me the intelligent thing to do is marginalize those who claim "hoax" and "settled science," so that reasonable adults can approach the subject sans the jaded propaganda. It's unfortunate that Boldwin and like-minded make a mockery of conservatism by approaching problem-solving by closing their eyes and claiming there's no problem. No amount of knowledge gathering, especially with a pre-determined bias, can cure that malady.

 
401Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 10:22
And here's the sad truth. There is plenty of pollution to genuinely be concerned about. But that didn't fit the problem they were looking for.

They were looking for something they could tax.
 
402Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 11:25
Here is an interesting point.

To date, the most convincing 'sounding' story supporting AGW was about this supposed warming skeptic scientist who supposedly had been won over by what is know as 'The Best Project'.

I noted at the time it was brought up here on the poliboard that it sounded interesting and significant if it turned out true, but noted how weird it was that this supposed skeptic was in such a rush to support and publicize a result which had not yet been vetted by other scientists.

Well water goes under the bridge and as it stands today, the Best Project has failed to win peer approval for publishing...and remember we are talking about the peer review process that has already been compromised by Hansen and Mann and the Hadley Center which favors AGW.

In fact it has failed the first time, gone thru a rewrite and tightening of methodolgy and it still isn't sound enuff for publishing.

Further the supposed skeptic has twice gone on publicity blitzes announcing his personal conversion story, while at the same time insisting the peer reviewers keep their criticisms confidential out of respect for peer review protocol.

This has degenerated into a farce, and your best effort to date lies flat on it's lying face.
 
403Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 11:37
For more climate fun, here is a screen cap of a scientist claiming in 2007 that 'the Arctic is Screaming' and that the arctic would be ice-free by 2012.

And here is the actual arctic ice coverage today EXACTLY in the same place it was in 2007.

Aint science grand? Unlike in politics, bulls#!t eventually walks.
 
404Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 11:56
Rig the peer review process so they can't get published without the mafia's nod, rig the grant-making so they can't work without the mafia's nod, threaten to actually prosecute deniers...yeah, it's all about the science for Michael Mann.

You don't know much about the grant writing process, do you? I've watched my wife volunteer to do grant reviews for the NIH. She never gets any that come from the company she works for.

She gets reviews in her field of expertise.

She brings them home and reads proposals in her spare time for free.

She submits her opinions on what she reads back a contact at the NIH.

Does she and she alone have the final say? Not by a long shot. She and groups of people like her who are interested in science and scientific advancement send their responses back the NIH who will generally abide by the opinions of a panel of non-partisan professionals.

The grant review mafia. Sure.
 
405Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 12:21
Denying it only makes you part of the conspiracy, Khahan!
 
406Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 12:41
haha, right. In some eyes it does.

I don't deny global warming. I just take a realistic approach to it. I question anybody who says GW is due to fossil fuels or carbon footprints or is all man-made. There are too many factors to take into account to pin it all on one thing.

I read a few weeks ago that there are large (millions of square miles) tracts of land in the arctic tundra that are releasing methane gas. Huge fields of it being released into the air.

There's warm ocean currents chipping away at the ice on the poles. There's solar flares and other effects of the sun. There's billions of years of history and cycles that we know absolutely nothing about it that all contribute to global warming.

This is not to say man has no effect on it. Any chance we can get to minimize the effect is worth taking. But the I do believe the overall impact of humans effect on GW is very over-stated and has become commercialized.
 
407Pancho Villa
      ID: 1010151016
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 13:15
Not only overstated, but counter productive in general to very legitimate and more immediate environmental concerns, mostly water related.
 
408sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 13:36
Khahan, you are showing yourself to be a RINO in the eyes of todays GOP. You appear to take on a rational, intelligent perspective. I would be careful if I were you, or they will start calling you marxist-socialist-communist-kenyan or some such.
 
409Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 14:06
Khanan #406: Part of that is also that a certain political element has taken climate scientist's work out of context in order to mock and minimize it. Same as for other organizations.

When the UN says that man's activities might be contributing to global warming, the anti-warming crowd takes this as the UN (God forbid!) saying that all warming is conclusively and completely the result of burning oil.

It is hard to have a discussion with a group of people bent on twisting words to "win."
 
410Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 15:22
As I said in the past Sarge, if it distances me from the thought processes and meme's of the extreme right, then i welcome the label.
 
411Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 16:10
Khahan

You obviously didn't read all the climategate e-mails where they go into great specificity as to how they rig the peer review process, right down to specific cases past, present and future.
 
412Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 16:42
And as far as grant-making, obviously the NIH is just a sliver of the sources of grant money for scientific research. Probably nothing in the climate field. Go ahead tho and ask your wife about the pitfalls ahead of a scientist who disagrees with AGW when it comes to funding in weather and climate research. If she knows anything about that.

Really, you think a guy shows up for a climate research grant and his status as a skeptic doesn't effect his ability to get a grant? Could anyone actually believe that?
 
413Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 16:48
No boldwin, I haven't read all those nor do I intend to. I also have not read all the articles pointing out the inequities and lambasting them. Quite frankly I'm sure the truth is somewhere between the 2 sides. It usually is.

But none of that propaganda (from either side) has any bearing on my own opinions I've formed myself from my own readings/research and conclusions.


I would strongly encourage you to start thinking for yourself rather than letting pundits, talk show hosts and people with an agenda think for you. Just because an agenda agrees with your own doesn't mean you should listen to those people.
 
414Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 16:58
This is the kind of reputation you need to have, to survive AGW skepticism with your financing intact, and even then it's dicey:

Nobel Prize winner Ivar Giaever

The man is so sure that AGW is transparently obviously bad science and a fraud and a hoax that he resigned from the American Physical Society over it's backing of AGW.
"I am a skeptic… Global warming has become a new religion."

In a featured story in Norway's largest newspaper, Aftenposten, 26 June 2011, Giaever stated, "It is amazing how stable temperature has been over the last 150 years."

On 13 September 2011 Giaever resigned from the American Physical Society over its official position that "the evidence is incontrovertible."...Giaever concluded his presentation with a pronouncement: "Is climate change pseudoscience? If I’m going to answer the question, the answer is: absolutely."
 
415Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 17:03
All of it eerily similar to the complaints by doctors (and they are still around) that the medical community has accepted without question that AIDS is caused by HIV.
 
416Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 17:09
I would strongly encourage you to start thinking for yourself - Khahan

Your funniest statement ever. Virtually everyone else here so locked into the zeitgeist they couldn't think outside the box if their lives depended on it. And it does in these, the last days.

I have been keeping up with emerging science since I was a sixth-grader in 1964 where I reasoned out on my own that quasars were something like black holes and the centers of galaxies, both ideas not even on the radar of general understanding.

I scored the highest possible score in science in all my college entrance exams. I have been following the cutting edge of physics and completely in love with science my entire life.

I've been an AGW denier since 1970 when it wasn't AGW it was global cooling hysteria. And the zeitgeist didn't have me fooled then either.

Don't accuse someone of being mired in group-think when you yourself are hopelessly glued to the mousetrap.

 
417Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 17:11
More excerpts:

Failure to Carry Out a Proper Investigation

Myron Ebell, Director of Energy and Global Warming Policy for the Competitive
Enterprise Institute is another voice proclaiming that the Mann case, like Sandusky’s
was “designed as a whitewash,” adding, “To admit that Dr. Mann is a conman now
would be extremely embarrassing for Penn State. But the scandal will not be
contained no matter how many whitewash reports are issued.”

Cynically, Mann has been allowed by his university employers to keep the key
metadata for his graph hidden under lock and key for over 13 years. He is set to
plead the Fifth Amendment if a judge orders him to reveal it, in an ongoing courtroom
investigation in Virginia.


Likewise, Sandusky also had his crimes covered up since 1998. Now Mann is
working to block his former employer, the University of Virginia (UVa) from complying
with a court order to release Mann’s hidden data to the Commonwealth’s Attorney
General. I’ve no doubt that once prosecutors are permitted to examine that evidence
which Spanier helped to hide Mann will be indicted on fraud charges.
..................
I don't think that's how science is supposed to work.
 
418Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 17:49
Even the Hadley Center had this to say recently:
According to the Hadley figures, the world grew warmer by 0.07 degrees Celsius from 1999 to 2008, and not by the 0.2 degrees Celsius assumed by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. And, say the British experts, when their figure is adjusted for two naturally occurring climate phenomena, El Niño and La Niña, the resulting temperature trend is reduced to 0.0 degrees Celsius — in other words, a standstill.
Consider this from Der Spiegel:
Fritz Vahrenholt, a prominent socialist and former global warming doctrine apostle, wrote, “The climate catastrophe is not occurring.”

In his new book, “I Feel Duped on Climate Change,” he writes, “I want new scientific findings to be included in the climate debate. It would then become clear that the simple equation that CO2 and other man-made greenhouse gases are almost exclusively responsible for climate change is unsustainable. It hasn’t gotten any warmer on this planet in almost 14 years, despite continued increases in CO2 emissions. Established climate science has to come up with an answer to that.”

Usually books by climate heretics don’t receive much attention, but Vahrenholt’s fame as a leading German socialist, an environmentalist and his prominent position in environmental efforts will likely ensure a debate at least in Europe on the issue. His position is enhanced by findings of Britain’s Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research that there has been no rise in temperatures, no global warming for the last 15 years. Findings of the Hadley Centre are used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and are considered the gold standard in temperature measurement.
Well yes, the Hadley Center now admits that there has been no recent global warming. But their former position is still used as the basis of AGW by the IPCC and scientist lemmings who just ignore and spin away Hadley's recent results.

But that doesn't excuse the Hadley Center's previous role in the hoax, one which they seek to avoid exposure on by refusing to comply with Britain's court disclosure rulings and destroying evidence: From the Hadley Center/Phil Jones emails
CRU director Phil Jones wrote: "When the FOI requests began here, the FOI person said we had to abide by the requests. It took a couple of half-hour sessions — one at a screen, to convince them otherwise."

Jones said: "About 2 months ago I deleted loads of e-mails, so have very little — if anything at all." Yet in an interview published last Tuesday in the Guardian, Jones told another story: "We've not deleted any e-mails or data here at CRU. I would never manipulate the data one bit — I would categorically deny that."

In one exchange, Jones tells Penn State's Michael Mann: "If they ever hear there's a Freedom of Information Act in the U.K., I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone." He even asks Mann to join him in deleting e-mail exchanges about an IPCC assessment report: "Can you delete any e-mails you may have had with Keith re: (the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report)?"
I presume your wife doesn't support 'science' done that way, Khahan.

 
419sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:10
*IF*, it were not occurring, if in fact there had been no temp change...explain the rapid withdrawl of the polar ice. Explain, the rapidly diminishing glacial ice? Ice doesnt melt, unless its temp rises above freezing. So if the temps didnt rise, and nobody tossed millions of tons of salt on the glaciers...why the rapid melting?
 
420Tree
      ID: 11653117
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:15
when science actually takes precedence over pride.

About-face: Former climate change skeptic now says global warming is man-made


Baldwin will just label him a traitor, but then again, he's been studying science since 1964 (granted, he's afraid of science too, but i don't expect Baldwin to actually evolve...oh, in his beliefs, of course.)
 
421Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:16
What part of this graph confuses you?

 
422Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:19
The difference Boldwin is that you take those excerpts as gospel because they support your agenda. I state you let them think for you because you do not question them. You absorb them and their mantra becomes your mantra.


I on the other hand will read that and give it some true critical thinking. I realize those excerpts like many that stand against them are simply a small part of the data. They in no way represent the whole of an organization or some Borg-like thought process.

And the truth, as I stated before, is most likely in between.

And whether my wife supports science done that way or not is irrelevant and has no bearing on this discussion.
 
423Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:19
Tree#420

See #402
 
424Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:26
And whether my wife supports science done that way or not is irrelevant and has no bearing on this discussion.

Until you lean on her reputation to raise your own and claim she shares your assessment.

And no, scientific truth is not about averaging divergent opinions. The higgs either exists or it doesn't. Hadley falsified data or it didn't. Mann is hiding something or he doesn't have something incriminating to hide.
 
425Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:41
Do not miss B7's blockbuster post#417.

Sorry if we've stepped on it, B7.
 
426Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:46
You mean like:

I’ve no doubt that once prosecutors are permitted to examine that evidence which Spanier helped to hide Mann will be indicted on fraud charges.

ROFL!
 
427sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:52
what part of this confuses you Boldwin?

The ice, is reducing in surface area. THAT, is undenied. Since ice is lighter than water, it floats. (because of air pockets) So the reduced surface area, is not due to submerging. That leaves melting. If the temp isnt rising, and no one is spreading vast quantities of ice melt, how is it melting?
 
428Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 19:43
Well time will tell, Sarge. I'll bet there is arctic icecover in September even in this warmer than average year, and you can go with the extremist claiming it would be ice-free by 2012.
 
429Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 19:46
And since my graph comes from the National Snow & Ice Data Center (NSIDC) and I have no reason to doubt it, and it shows the icecover is roughly the same in both 2007 and 2012 I'll go with that.
 
430sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 20:27
yeah, satellite photos are nothing, compared to nice pretty graph.
 
431Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 20:28
Until you lean on her reputation to raise your own and claim she shares your assessment.

Arguments I've never made. My whole point is I have actual exposure to portions of the grant process where as you don't. Yet you want to make assumptions and call names. You want to use negative labels like mafia to degrade that with which you disagree.

However, on these boards you just found somebody with a better understanding of a subject than you. And that understanding is purely about the grant process. Yet you want to try to make this about the debate on global warming. Her opinion on it is irrelevant to any discussion.

However, as usual Boldwin, to you, your position is the gold standard. It is on its own pedestal and supports its own truths. Any other opinion is flawed. Any other opinion is wrong. Any other opinion needs data to support it. Yet when that data is presented it is just an opinion. And since it disagrees with you, we're back to square 1: Any other opinion is flawed.

And is proof of my whole point above:

Well time will tell, Sarge. I'll bet there is arctic icecover in September even in this warmer than average year, and you can go with the extremist claiming it would be ice-free by 2012

Yes, that extremist was wrong to claim there'd be no arctic ice cover by 2012. However, him being wrong and there still being arctic ice cover does NOT prove you right. It does not prove there is not global warming. It just proves that one extremist's conclusions were invalidated.

Nothing more. Nothing less. But you will never see that. To you, by virture of a single square inch of ice covering a portion of the arctic, that extremist is wrong and invalidated and therefore anyone and everyone who agrees with him is an idiot and also wrong. And you are 100% completely right. You know what that makes you? An extremist on the other end of the spectrum.

And you know what that makes me? It makes me somebody would sees that the ice cover is still present but greatly reduced from a decade ago. It makes me somebody who can objectively look at and process data largely independent of my own biases.

Now, here's a question for the population at large:

Who has more credibility in a debate?

1. Extremist on side A making ridiculous claims
2. Extremist on side B making Bold claims
3. Objective observer evaluating actual information

Ask yourself where you fall in those 3 categories. I left a little hint for you.
 
432sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 21:35
<--pretty sure I owe Khahan a beer. lol
 
433Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 21:47
Since you like averages so much, I suggest you average the global cooling hystery of the 1970's with global warming hystery of today and you'll come down smelling like roses in time.
 
434Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 00:50
LMAO.

someone just got taken to school, got taken down a peg or two, and his hubris, his pride, won't even let him back down a bit and say "hey, man, ok, maybe you do understand this a bit more than i do."

how very Christian of you. you might as well vote.
 
435Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 03:57
This is the formulation liberals love. If only the world was just made up of liberals who of course know the correct party-line position on everything...no extremism there, oh no no no...

...and if only everyone else were just squishes who would keep compromising away every position other than the party-line.
 
436Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 09:45
This is the formulation liberals love.

Khahan is no liberal.
 
437boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 10:03
I'll bet there is arctic icecover in September even in this warmer than average year

Interesting comment coming from someone so read in climate change since, it was actually a historically cold winter in much of the artic.
 
438Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 11:54
Thanks Tree. You are right, I am no liberal. Even when my final disposition agrees with 'the liberal agenda' I came to that conclusion because of a deeper conservative belief (good example - right to same sex marriage. I support it because its not my place to tell them they cant. Not because of some willingness or want to promote the lifestyle. I recognize that I have my beliefs, they have theirs and what they are asking is not unconstitutional or disruptive or threatening to our society. Therefore its ok. I was raised by consertatives who are now tea party members. They didn't teach me to accept gay marriage. But they taught me good conservative values and those values led me to that decision. As opposed to you who are against it because somebody else tells you to be against it).

More to the point, I'm no extremist boldwin. No extremism there? You're right. No extremism from me. I'm about as middle of the road as they come.

And claiming I'm 'towing the party line.' You've obviously not paid a bit of attention to any of my posts on the poli boards. I'm the one who rails against the party line, even when I agree with it. I'm the one who blasts partisanship, no matter which side its on. I'm the one who thinks that once an official gets elected he should disavow any party affiliation while in his position of power because that official is there to represent everybody. Not just those who voted for him.


So keep to your tried and true defense mechanisms. And keep failing at this discussion. I really don't mind. Its amusing.

Oh and Sarge - Im holding you to that beer if we ever get to meet! I like Franziskaner, guinness, yeungling. Most any lager and most any dark draught.
 
440sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 11:59
As opposed to you who are against it because somebody else tells you to be against it

I let Tree address that comment, but will puton the record, I dont think that is why Tree favors allowing same sex marriage.

As for the beer....the oppty presents itself, and it will be my pleasure.
 
441Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 11:59
Boikin

Let me save you the trouble.

When the perpetrators of the hoax in the first place, the Hadley Center/CRU tell you it hasn't gotten warmer in fifteen years, I don't sit by my monitor biting my fingernails, studying the ice-pack by the hour watching for 'The Day After Tommorrow' to break out.
 
442Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 12:05
Sarge, after I reread it I realized that sounded like it was directed at Tree. It wasn't. It was directed at Boldwin.
 
443sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 12:49
my bad....a reread on my part, and I realized it was to B, with the "against it" part.

<--reminds self, might want to read twice, then post. lol
 
444Tree
      ID: 21740112
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 13:43
I like Franziskaner

one of the best Hefeweizens around. personally, i like Live Oak's better, but Franz is damned near the top.

 
445Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 22:49
Sarge,

Ice doesn't float because it has air in it, it floats because ice is less dense then water. When water freezes, it changes it structure and crystalizes, this results in being slightly less dense and thus "lighter" then the water it is floating on. Having pockets of air would also make it less dense and help it float. Not a big deal, but as a science wonk, I had to comment.

As for why the ice caps are shrinking? That is the great question and why I have issues with climate scientists. The Higgs boson was not "discovered" until they had 99.999% confidence (I think) of their find. Climate scientists are nowhere near this level in most of their "discoveries". They have data that shows the effects, but we don't know what is causing them. The ice caps melting is a great example. Is it a change in ocean currents? Solar output, ozone hole? global warming? something else? Climate scientists like to claim they know, but IMO they don't. They have lots of theories, but most of them are most likely wrong. That is how science works. Put a theory out there, test it, and refine the theory. Climate scientists (IMO) tend to skip steps 2 and 3.

Khahan, I award you one internet. Epic post in 431. My question that I keep coming back to when I read these boards are who is more insane? The original poster or the multiple posters who keep answering and commenting. Isn't the definition of insanity to keep trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different results?
 
446DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 00:08
Sometimes it's fun to watch the Black Knight claim that it's only a flesh wound, his arm's not lopped off.
 
447Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 01:41
Tis but a scratch. I've had worse!
 
448Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 01:44
When you average it out.
 
449Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 01:58
I'm just curious how it is that someone who approaches every issue as a tabula rasa, who enters with such hydrocephalic purity and freedom of bias...

...can love booing, ganging up, and the principle of 'no friends to the right' with such principled rigidity?

Where did they find you anyway?
 
450Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 02:17
And while you are at it, ask your wife how it was that the homosexual lobby managed to completely cut off the grants of all reparative therapy research if the grant-making process is free from political agenda.

 
451Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 02:22
For the same reason that the Flat Earthers get very few grants these days.
 
452Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 02:31
homosexual lobby

oh!! i was there!! right before walking into the reception hall of the wedding of my friends Amy and Trish!

it was quite a grand lobby.
 
453Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 03:07
Say what you want about their cute obsession with "marriage": Those fags can do lobbies.
 
454Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 04:47
And principled rigidity.
 
455Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 08:58
and the principle of 'no friends to the right'

And here is where your mental illness shines thru. I have a lot of friends on the right. If you want I'll recap my points in this thread:

1) I global warming has not been proven to be a man-made phenomena

2) I think a lot of the issues raised and a lot of the political bruhaha around it are focused around the almighty dollar
(with me so far? You agree with those 2 points)

3) I called you out as an extremist. Let me do a diagram for you.


Extreme right center left extreme
<-- ------/---/---/------ -->
You........me

(yes I know I have the right on the left side, its easier to line everything up that way properly).

I've got plenty of friends on the right. I agree with the right ideology more often than not. But I do that thru my own choice and my own evaluation of data. You, are on the right. But you are always on that side, no matter what. You let that side tell you what your ideology should be then you dig up information to support it.

Am I ganging up on you? Yes. Its my duty as a middle of the road thinker to try to reign in the extremes. I do it to both sides, though, so don't let my attentions go to your head. Its not you. Its me. I'm sorry it has to be this way.
 
456Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 09:58
1) It's very very hard to keep track of everyone's position on every topic. If you actually had you would find it impossible to peg me to any group or group-think out there that you are familiar with.

2) There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your safe narrow segment of the spectrum.
 
457sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 10:09
1) It's very very hard to keep track of everyone's position on every topic. If you actually had you would find it impossible to peg me to any group or group-think out there that you are familiar with.[emphasis added}

unintentional comedy, at its absolute peak.

Boldwin, dude, seriously? Pegging you politically, is easier than pegging Karl Marx.
 
458Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 10:39
PD, you owe me new keyboard for 453.

Boldwin, Could you please provide us just one example of where you differ from the right?
 
459Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 11:22
Frick

For ending the drug war.

The Bush family is part of a clique that has run the drug trade for at least a couple centuries.

At least half of the right has not figured out that 'the Arab Spring' is a disaster in the making. They are still pulling for the downfall of Assad.

I don't think there is any long or midterm hope for America.

America is not God's little darling.

The Bush dynasty is on the side that wants to see America lose it's sovereignty and be subsumed by globalist government.

It is not an coincidence that most of the 911 terrorists came from small CIA airports in Florida.

Outfits like KROLL that have deep ties with the establishment in both parties is deeply involved with terrorism IMO.

McCain is George Soros' sock-puppet.

If those don't differ from every last person on the right, they differ with half of them. The simple fact that there is no one else like me on this or any other board and that I have no unalloyed ally should tell you how NOT a talking points carbon copy I am.
 
460boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 11:26
He has got you there, he disagrees often with the center right. Now, for the extreme right?
 
461Tree
      ID: 48729210
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 11:32
PD, you owe me new keyboard for 453.

i'm owed one for 456. now THAT was funny.

He has got you there, he disagrees often with the center right. Now, for the extreme right?

exactly. he disagrees with moderates. but the far right? he marches boot step for boot step with them.
 
462sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 11:39
B, other than the "war on drugs", name one point where you and the LEFT agree.
 
463Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 16:07
Partially or totally? Because it's all been corrupted.

I'm for clean air and water.

I care about poor people.

I like animals.

There isn't anything I agree with them on that doesn't come with a proviso.
 
464Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 16:11
B - its not that the right is for dirty air/water, doesnt care about poor people and detests animals. The difference comes in how to handle those issues.

 
465sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 16:19
B? You disagree with the EPA even existing. You do NOT care about poor people, you just pay occassional lip service to pretending that you do. You probably do put animals ahead of humans, like the extremists at PETA.
 
466Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Fri, Jan 11, 2013, 02:14
If you are 27 or younger, you've never experienced a colder-than-average month.
 
468Frick
      ID: 2193319
      Fri, Jan 11, 2013, 09:06
From the original analysis that was used for the link in 466.

This post and method are not about attributing cause for changes, they are about trying to decide if we can even refer to a 'normal climate'.

Is the average temperature rising? Yes, I think that most rationale people will agree with that. What are the causes, we don't know. We have some theories. And while 150 years is roughly double the average human life span, it is a tiny, tiny fraction of the Earth's and Sun's life spans.

Should we continue to pollute as if there are no consequences. No. Should we enact laws that will harm our economy. No. Should we try to take reasonable steps that are cost effective and increase efficiency? Yep.


I deleted 467 as I didn't catch a missing bracket that messed up some formatting.

 
469Seattle Zen
      ID: 3310162612
      Mon, Jan 14, 2013, 19:18
Should we continue to pollute as if there are no consequences. No. Should we enact laws that will harm our economy. No. Should we try to take reasonable steps that are cost effective and increase efficiency? Yep.

I'm with you, Frick. I think how we define question two will lead to fundamental differences between factions. I, for one, wanted a lot more greenhouse gas reducing and energy efficiency spending as a part of the stimulus package. Still think our country would gain a huge benefit in creating a new, more efficient electricity grid and a massive amount of infrastructure investment in wind farms in the southern plains. Republicans would spit-take their high fructose corn syrup carbonated beverage at the suggestion, rattling off every anti-spending epithet they could conjure in 10 seconds.

What sort of laws and regulations are moderates willing to consider?
 
471sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 00:54
Moderate Rep changes party to Dem

The Arizona Republican Party is an ideological outlier. I am not, and I see nothing that indicates that leadership is inclined to move in any direction but further away from what I believe are the values of this community. I appreciate the support I have been given by those in the party who share these feelings. I also appreciate the support I have been given by both independents and Democrats who have openly recognized my efforts to craft common sense public policy, untethered from an extreme ideological position. But the Republican Party leadership cannot expect those of us whose purpose it is to reach common ground across varying political interests to continue to wear a label that rejects that core principle.
 
473Frick
      ID: 2193319
      Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 09:03
Re: 470 & 472

Thank you for helping move the debate along.


Re: 469

That is good question. I agree with you on energy efficiency, but it has to be somewhat reasonable. I think the approach that was taken with hybrid cars works. The technology wasn't cost effective initially without the tax credits. So to get the economies of scale, cars were effectively reduced in cost by tax breaks. The Prius is no longer eligible for the tax incentives I believe, as it has reached a specific point (I am only vaguely recalling that, so it could be incorrect.) VW had a concept car (CrossBlue) at the Detroit auto show that was a large SUV with a diesel engine and 2 electric motors. It would average 35mpg, which is at least 10mpg better than a similar competitor, and closer to 15mpg than most similar competitors. But it likely won't be made or brought here because it would be to expensive.

I dislike the carbon credits system that is being to put into place for power plants. It seems like nothing more than a political maneuver to tax red states to benefit blue states. Harming the middle of the country seems to be the net effect and the middle of the country is already struggling economically. Adding this burden, while benefitting the coasts (in general) doesn't seem like the right way to go about it.

In general I don't have a problem with laws and regulations, they are needed as companies have shown no ability to restrain themselves to make money right now, without considering the consequences of the future (thank you Jack Welch).



 
474Boldwin
      ID: 11020158
      Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 09:22
 
475Boldwin
      ID: 11020158
      Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 09:53
If it was me personally, I would fund the heck out of bringing to market thorium nuclear reactors.

Ban windpower until they can find a way to quit sweeping the skies free of wildlife and until they don't need subsidies to break even.

Build tidal power plants.

By the time that generation of powerplants ages out solar power tech will be efficient enuff to go mostly solar.

BTW codes are on track or perhaps a tad too draconian, but it won't take long before the housing stock averages 30R and takes very little to heat and cool. The majority of the luxury housing market right now is being built to that standard.

Requirements are being put in place that every house sold meet draconian energy effiency figures. There will be some real hardship and some rich people will take much advantage of poor people in a bind over that, but if you could put a human face on it, I could even back a soft version of that.

Passivhaus and zero-energy buildings are being taught everywhere and architects are excited to be pushing it bigtime.

We'll be lighting with LED's cutting lighting energy drain by 85%. All my frequently used bulbs are LED already.

The developed world is doing just fine on pollution. The problem people should be looking at is that the world has exported all the jobs and pollution to China. That's where the problem went. In addition as the world wakes up and pulls up the bottom third a whole new pollution problem is being born. Not sure how you power that market pollution-free.
 
476Boldwin
      ID: 11020158
      Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 10:03
Now that the USA has switched to net natural gas exporter and the supply is growing exponentially thanks to fracking, switching the American auto fleet to natural gas is a no-brainer. The fleet that is already very clean could thus be even cleaner.

Hopefully the Arab financed anti-fracking publicity campaign doesn't succeed in hog-tying us.
 
477boikin
      ID: 430211013
      Mon, Jan 28, 2013, 10:45
Big cities found to be causing warmer winters. Not sure how this will fit into CO2 causing warming meme and not much we can even do about this, maybe more roof top farms? I think this is just more evidence that scientist have not been thinking about the problem in properly and have been fixated on CO2. It all reminds me of how in the early 1900s you could find orange trees growing wild as far north Georgia border now orange groves can survive much past Orlando. The believed reasoning behind this was drying up of swamps that held heat.
 
478Boldwin
      ID: 534112621
      Mon, May 27, 2013, 08:08


Happy 34" Memorial Day

Why they had to change 'Global Warming' to 'Climate Change'.
 
479sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 09:44
deny this


graphic demonstration of the extent of damage being done.
 
480biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Sat, Jul 27, 2013, 04:20


Useful graphic.
 
481biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Sat, Jul 27, 2013, 04:25
2011, easier to read.

https://www.llnl.gov/news/newsreleases/2012/Oct/images/25307_LLNLUSEnergy2011.png
 
482biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sat, Jul 27, 2013, 10:40
Livermore table
 
483ChicagoTRS
      ID: 1550160
      Sat, Jul 27, 2013, 11:48
Livermore table is interesting...would like to see cost data associated with each energy type.
 
484biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sat, Jul 27, 2013, 12:24
The rejected energy is massive. I'm guessing that's Heat or electric lost in transmission? That's where I would focus conservation efforts.

Converting transportation away from petroleum also looks like something that would really help with greenhouse gases. A combination of active transportation and electric, presumably generated by something not just as polluting.

And we really need to ramp up the passive house movement and distributed power generation to cut those huge commercial and residential numbers.
 
485biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sat, Jul 27, 2013, 12:27
I'd like to see the externalities costed out too. How do you put a price on destroying our only planet?