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| Posted by: Perm Dude
- [5510572522] Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 10:38
Senate collecting caucus ideas--coming close to a package for committee work.
Very workmanlike, these days, that Senate. |
| | | 1 | weykool Leader
ID: 41750315 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 11:28
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Very workmanlike on how to ruin the economy. First healthcare and now another government program to suck the taxes and life out of our economy. The best thing this congress could do would be to take the next 12 months off. Haven't they done enough harm already?
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| | | 2 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 11:44
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I have an idea, lower taxes.
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| | | 3 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 11:52
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Well, I think you'd need to see the things being proposed before you criticize it, yes?
The Stimulus Bill, as much as it was hated, added 4 points to the economy and did exactly as it was supposed to: keep the recession from sliding even deeper. The economy, in fact, is doing better as a result of Congressional action.
Don't take my word for it--the conservative think tank American Enterprise Institute agrees.
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| | | 4 | Mith
ID: 159201318 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 12:18
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#2: That's exactly the broad brush approach that contributed to the collapse. One of the great lessons of the GW Bush administration should be the danger of massive tax cuts without corresponding spending cuts.
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| | | 5 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 12:40
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another government program to suck the taxes and life out of our economy..
That's an odd anlysis. Not only do the unemployed not pay taxes, they are a burden in that they receive unemployment compensation, which contributes to sucking the taxes and life out of our economy.
My fear is that we'll end up with more government workers as opposed to private sector workers. And, of course, government employees, with their guaranteed cost of living raises, Cadillac benefits package, and little incentive to excel, bloat the bureacracy and end up as a negative return.
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| | | 6 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 12:45
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If you've seen it done in Chicago you'd know why a new slush fund of political bribery is needed. Combine that with public unrest over the commie-care bill and the upcoming midterms and it becomes even clearer.
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| | | 7 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 13:13
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Why is it when there is a new government program to be introduced you guys are so giddy over it. I really would like to know the mind set that enjoys government intervention.
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| | | 10 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 18:34
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The Siren Call Of Tyranny"The totalitarian phenomenon," Revel observed years ago, "is not to be understood without making an allowance for the thesis that some important part of every society consists of people who actively want tyranny: either to exercise it themselves or—much more mysteriously—to submit to it."
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| | | 11 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 22:42
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Yeah yeah yeah. More nonsense if you don't know fact one about the bill you are criticizing.
Is there really a better definition of "partisan hackery" that what you are engaging in?
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| | | 12 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 07:56
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The creditability of the government is not very good. Stimulus isnt working(10% unemployment, was suppose to be only 8%). As a matter of fact the stimulus is suppose to create jobs. And now a jobs bill. Nobody likes the health care bill, we are in debt up to our eyeballs and you want more government intervention. The healthcare bill is going to kill employees, they will be laying off soon if that goes through. Weykool is right, take some time off.
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| | | 13 | Mith
ID: 159201318 Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 08:13
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Stimulus isnt working(10% unemployment, was suppose to be only 8%). As a matter of fact the stimulus is suppose to create jobs.
I'd rethink your method for measuring the success of the stimulus bill. Your first mistake is the belief that the sole purpose of the thing was to halt rising unemployment.
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| | | 14 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 08:23
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your right, one of the things
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| | | 15 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 08:31
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Then again it hasnt halted the rise of unemployment
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| | | 16 | Mith
ID: 159201318 Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 08:37
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NG
Consider that well over a third of that stimulus money goes to tax credits, something that, based on post #2, I'd think you approve of. To an extent you're challenging your own principles by so quickly dismissing the Recovery Act's job creation success, no?
For the record I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but can we be so sure that it wasn't the models that predicted 8% unemployment that were flawed, rather than the attempt to stem the problem - or some combination of both, and/or possibly other factors?
Further, in part because of poor planning, in part because of GOP obstructionism and in part because some of it isn't designed to kick in yet, I believe still less then half of that money has actually been spent. I'd suggest it's still way too early to judge the success of the thing.
I'm not ready to blindly rubber-stamp support a jobs bill. But I think it's silly to fault anyone for objectively considering the proposals.
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| | | 17 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 14:49
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The goal of the stimulus package, as outlines by the CBO at the time: "Fiscal stimulus aims to boost economic activity during periods of economic weakness by increasing short-term aggregate demand."
To measure whether it is working, it is important to make sure we aren't measuring whether things it wasn't meant to change changed. The stimulus package wasn't directly tied to unemployment levels, the Dow Jones, or bank profitability. It was tied to GNP. According to many measured (and, as reflected in this outlook by the AEI), the economic growth the US experienced in 2009 was solely a result of the stimulus:
The real economy also responded to the massive stimulus but remained heavily dependent on it. In the United States, growth during the second half of 2009 probably averaged about 3 percent. Absent temporary fiscal stimulus and inventory rebuilding, which taken together added about 4 percentage points to U.S. growth, the economy would have contracted at about a 1 percent annual rate during the second half of 2009.
Did it do what they said it would? Undeniably, yes. Was it worth the cost? I believe so but that is worthy of debate. But we cannot begin the conversation by calling the stimulus a failure by any measure of what it was intended to do.
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| | | 18 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 16:39
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17-You are probably right what you say, but it was the President that said 8%. You can talk about the CBO and the GNP all you want, you will glaze peoples eyes over, it comes down to one thing and that is jobs. If you dont have jobs by the mid terms the dems will lose big. You may have a good GNP but if the unemployment doesnt come down you have nothing. To be truthful PD you explain things better than the President. Dont take this as a cut, but you should contact the white house to become "Secretary of explaining things for the dems." (I think you would have to be confirmed) You do a nice job.
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| | | 19 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 18:16
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it comes down to one thing and that is jobs.
The first step is to stop the bleeding, which appears to have happened. Last month(December 2009)there were 85,000 jobs lost. Compare that to December 2008, when 577,000 jobs were lost.
The S&P 500 has gone from 676.53 on March 9, 2009 to 1144.98 on Friday. The unfortunate side of this is that most companies have either stabilized or improved their bottom lines by slashing costs, including jobs. The positive side of this is that the stock market is a measure of confidence in the economy, billions in pension and retirement funds are tied to it, and companies are unable to expand unless we are willing to invest in them.
If the country is willing to make the investment in our companies, we'll see growth and job creation, especially in certain industries. But it takes confidence, and there are a litany of obstructions that could still send us backwards, including:
>unions that almost force jobs overseas by squeezing profit margins into the red
>taxation that discourages R&D, expansion and growth
>the contingency of Americans who scream that the president's goal is to destroy the country, which hardly instills confidence to invest
>the same contingency who adamantly refuses to support anything that's government related as long as their preferred party is out of power
>we simply must get a hold on illegal workers who are doing jobs that unemployed Americans can be doing, but there's little incentive for the unemployed when their benefits are extended for years
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| | | 20 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 18:45
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Good post PV.
Certainly there is a swath of people who are politically motivated to destroy confidence in the hopes of hurting this president politically (we saw that, somewhat, in the last administration too, but it didn't have the House & Senate members in their pockets at the time).
Things are turning around (the Dow was up 19% at the end of the year), and most folks I know realize that it is more a matter of keeping your head down, working hard, and doing whatever you have to do to keep food on the table.
I'm interested in reading more about this green jobs intitiative, which is bolstered by tax credits. I don't know much about it, but this is the kind of thing that should be happening more often.
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| | | 21 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 22:54
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Things are turning around (the Dow was up 19% at the end of the year), and most folks I know realize that it is more a matter of keeping your head down, working hard, and doing whatever you have to do to keep food on the table.-Then you have a lot of people who are waiting to recieve O'Bamas stash.
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| | | 22 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 00:02
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I'm not sure what that means, NG. Perhaps the hundreds of millions of dollars in tax cuts weren't that much, but nearly everyone getting a paycheck got to keep a little more because of the stimulus.
The problem (and we'll see this a lot) is one of perception. Anyone making less than $70K/year ($140/K for couples) will get a tax credit of $400 ($800 for couples). Pretty much about 95% of all taxpayers will see less in federal taxes, which will take the form of smaller amounts taken out of their paychecks.
Of course, this doesn't make much of a splash with people. [Which explains why many people get all excited to get a big refund check from the IRS after they gave the government a large interest-free loan the previous year]. It is all a matter of perception, which is sometimes wrong.
But it is there. And every little bit helps, even if it is only a buck a day.
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| | | 23 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 00:26
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What I am refering to is what happened up in Detroit. People were lining up to get money from the government. (Not sure why or how-sorry about that)But a news crew interviewed a person and asked what they were doing. And she said Im here to get Obama money. And he asked where did obama get it. She said I dont know his stash I guess. I think there is a hell of alot of people who have no clue whats going on. Thats my point. So there are people with their heads down trying to make ends meet and there are people with their hands out and have no clue of who what where and how.
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| | | 24 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 00:40
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I think there is a hell of alot of people who have no clue whats going on.
Ain't that the truth.
One of the things that seems to have flown over the heads of many big-city liberals is that Obama is far less liberal than they think he is. When faced with inner-city parents complaining about how poorly their children are doing in school (as the first part of a "poor me!" litany), Obama asks them if they turn off the TV at night and how much time they spend with their kids doing homework. It is sad how many people will answer "no" and "none" but still expect schools to educate their kids for them.
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| | | 26 | weykool
ID: 20291110 Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 12:23
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Only in the Democrat/liberal universe would you find unemployment going from 8% to 10% and the take is that "things are turning around" because we didnt lose as many jobs last month. If the president were a Rebulican these boards would be going apolectic if the administration tried to sell that one.
If congress and this president are really serious about helping the economy they would be looking for ways to help small businesses create real jobs instead of another government job that has to be paid for by taking more taxes from the private sector. In California there are far too many of these government jobs and it is severly restricting the growth of the economy. Once you create these government jobs we are stuck with them even if they are no longer useful or needed.
Another big problem looming for the American economy are the two major job killer pieces of legislation championed by the Obama administration. Cap and trade and Health care reform are going to kill jobs and severly restrict economic growth for years to come.
PV: FYI Unemployment benefits are taxable income.
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| | | 27 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 12:42
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Look, if you don't want to look at some of the news that looks like things are turning around, fine. But when we lose over a half million jobs in one month and the next year that same month losses are a fraction of that, we are, indeed, making progress.
This isn't great news, and it isn't to say we don't have work to do. But it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
I agree that job creation by small businesses is a key (though not the only one). Which is why the bulk of the business tax cuts are going to small businesses.
Your point about unemployment benefits is an important one. While some states have reduced or waived income tax on unemployment benefits (whether regular 26 week benefits or exteneded 13 week benefits), federal tax is due on the benefits in any case (though the extension Obama asked Congress to push through waived the first $2400 of the benefits from being taxable).
Anyone getting more than $2400 in benefits in the year and who aren't covered by the standard deduction should look closely at what they might owe.
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| | | 28 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 16:19
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FYI Unemployment benefits are taxable income
Sure, but it's net loss, similar to another government job that has to be paid for by taking more taxes from the private sector.
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| | | 29 | Biliruben movin
ID: 358252515 Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 20:21
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You will notice that spending on transit did create jobs, however.
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| | | 30 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 5000519 Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 21:53
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STIMULUS WATCH: Unemployment Unchanged by Projects -- STIMULUS WATCH: Billions of stimulus dollars for roads, bridges didn't chop unemployment
By MATT APUZZO and BRETT J. BLACKLEDGE Associated Press Writers WASHINGTON January 11, 2010 (AP)
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Even within the construction industry, which stood to benefit most from transportation money, the AP's analysis found there was nearly no connection between stimulus money and the number of construction workers hired or fired since Congress passed the recovery program. The effect was so small, one economist compared it to trying to move the Empire State Building by pushing against it.
"As a policy tool for creating jobs, this doesn't seem to have much bite," said Emory University economist Thomas Smith, who supported the stimulus and reviewed AP's analysis. "In terms of creating jobs, it doesn't seem like it's created very many. It may well be employing lots of people but those two things are very different."
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The 400-page stimulus law contains so many provisions — tax cuts, unemployment benefits, food stamps, state aid, military spending — economists agree that it's nearly impossible to determine what worked best and replicate it. It's also impossible to quantify exactly what effect the stimulus has had on job creation, although Obama points to estimates that credit the recovery program for creating or saving 1.6 million jobs.
It is also becoming more difficult to obtain an accurate count of stimulus jobs. Those who receive stimulus money can now credit jobs to the program even if they were never in jeopardy of being lost, according to new rules outlined by the White House's Office of Management and Budget.
The new rules, reported Monday by the Internet site ProPublica, allow any job paid for with stimulus money to count as a position saved or created.
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., complained in a letter sent last week to the government board monitoring stimulus spending that the new policy would make job counts "even more misleading."
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The road money ripples through the economy better than other spending because it improves the nation's infrastructure, said Bernstein, the White House economist.
But that's a policy argument, not a stimulus argument, said Daniel Seiver, an economist at San Diego State University who reviewed AP's analysis.
"Infrastructure spending does have a long-term payoff, but in terms of an immediate impact on construction jobs it doesn't seem to be showing up," Seiver said. "A program like this may be justified, but it's not going to have an immediate effect of putting people back to work."
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| | | 31 | Biliruben movin
ID: 358252515 Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 22:17
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I think the conclusion is clear:
stop building roads.
Start building trains, sidewalks and bike paths.
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| | | 32 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 07:56
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Besides being of totally no use to me, why would those things be any better at stimulating the economy than improved roads?
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| | | 33 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 11:13
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Some jobs will never return and job losses and gains by category.
As evidenced by the 2nd link, the hardest hit category by far is construction and construction related industries such as Mortgage and nonmortgage loan brokers(-36.3%).
From Wilmer's link above:
Even within the construction industry, which stood to benefit most from transportation money, the AP's analysis found there was nearly no connection between stimulus money and the number of construction workers hired or fired since Congress passed the recovery program. The effect was so small, one economist compared it to trying to move the Empire State Building by pushing against it.
Also from Wilmer's link:
Construction contractors would seem to be in line to benefit from stimulus spending. But money for road construction offers little relief to most contractors who don't work on transportation projects, a niche that requires expensive, heavy equipment that most residential and commercial builders don't own. Residential and commercial building make up the bulk of the construction industry.
When you look at where a huge percentage of job losses in construction have occurred, it's obvious what needs to happen for those jobs to be re-created. I'm currently doing a large commercial job - a 300 unit 4 story apartment complex. The number of employees involved in a project like this is substantial, from architects to private waste haulers.
IMO, a portion of stimulus money for construction purposes should be directed to commercial and residential. It might make sense to consider the billions that bank executives are getting be directed to projects like these, but then the howls of "socialism" would likely drown out any semblance of common sense. It's just a lot easier to whine about job losses and point fingers.
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| | | 34 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 11:38
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I don't know about that. Construction jobs dried up because the housing market collapsed (at a time when the construction industry overbuilt). We're now left with lots and lots of empty new buildings--the amount of empty space (for both housing and commercial) is at an all-time high. Putting tax money into building even more seems to be the very definition of "make work."
I get it--these people are under or unemployed in their fields (trust me--I'm in a resort area and new construction has virtually stopped here, putting people I know out of work). But building more houses isn't the solution. Finding other construction projects (particularly projects with long-term benefits) is probably the better solution.
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| | | 35 | Mith
ID: 43914286 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 11:38
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The number of residential and commercial construction jobs was inflated just like everything else related to the housing bubble, no?
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| | | 36 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 13:24
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Depends on the area. A lot of the commercial projects concentrated on super high end condo and office projects that became economically unfeasable because there weren't buyers for the condos or tenents for the offices.
Similar with residential. Most of the toxic assets were homes with a price tag above $400,000 that suddenly didn't have a market when they actually applied sane qualification standards.
That's one of the reasons why Baldwin's claim that the CRA(and Dodd) being at the heart of the housing collapse is so ridiculous, because the properties foreclosed on CRA loans are among the easiest to resell, given their affordability. There's lots of other reasons why the claim is ridiculous, such as over half of subprime loans originating from mortgage companies, not banks, and the CRA is involved only with banks.
There's plenty of room for growth in the residential housing market(again, depending on the area) if the prices of the properties is in line with the incomes of buyers.
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| | | 37 | biliruben
ID: 461142511 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 13:38
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Last I have read, there is between 4.5 and 5 million vacant homes in the US. The normal level is around 2 million.
That's a significant amount housing surplus we need to work through. Right now, all the tax credits and such are doing is getting first time homeowners without a downpayment (and investors willing to engage in fraud) to by up low-end housing. This is driving rental vacancies through the roof, forcing rents down, and further hammering commercial real estate. This driving smaller banks with huge commercial loan portfolios to the brink of collapse and beyond, with over 500 banks at risk of insolvency.
Why we would want to perpetuate and exacerbate this by creating even more surplus is beyond me. Sure, in regional pockets (perhaps such as Salt Lake - dunno) you might not have the excess supply of the country as a whole, but we certainly shouldn't looking at adding incentives nationally to further increase supply.
There are simply more construction workers nationally than we need, and we won't be needing them for a long, long time. Especially if anti-immigration sentiment grows. Our internal growth is so slow that the only way I can see to start filling all those vacant properties quickly is to vastly increase immigration. That's not politically feasible, even if it's a no-brainer.
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| | | 38 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 15:27
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Like I said, it depends on the area, but my morning fish wrap had this to say about my area.
Chris Nelson is way out there when he lays out the future -- say 20 years out there.
And what the director of the University of Utah's Metropolitan Research Center forecasts for the state's housing market during the next two decades gave a Salt Lake City ballroom full of hundreds of Realtors a lot of hope Monday.
Though that is countered by some uncertainty in the year ahead, his bottom line was this: By 2030, the state will be the fastest growing in the nation, pulling in another 1.5 million residents on top of the 2.7 million already here, and 700,000 new jobs will be created.
"We are -- you are -- big time," he told the audience.
That means more houses need to be built, along with more commercial square footage. And he state, particularly the Wasatch Front, is behind in what is needed.
"This pent-up demand, combined with growth, needs to be dealt with," he told the Realtors during their annual Housing Forecast breakfast at Little America Hotel.
While Nelson had the podium and was describing a world still two decades away, those in the audience also were perusing a handout from James Wood, director of the University of Utah's Bureau of Economic and Business Research. Wood dealt with more immediate issues.
He predicted that Salt Lake County can expect a 3 percent growth in home sales during 2010, or 9,100 units.
That's Salt Lake County. Further south, where I am, there is an abundance of land west of Utah Lake which is more affordable than in the Salt Lake Valley. Those growth projections are probably double in my area.
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| | | 39 | biliruben
ID: 461142511 Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 15:45
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We have the same sorts economists, tainted by RE money, making the same sorts of projections for Seattle and surrounding regions. I generally think they have a strong motivation to project on the high-side, and I generally divide by 2 whenever I read any of those projections. WSU has a similar RE research center, and their economist has been consistently wrong in the same direction that can only be explained by motivations from the builder and realtor money that supports the center.
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| | | 41 | biliruben
ID: 461142511 Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 13:01
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Brookings: intra-US migration slowing:
From 2007 to 2008, 23 states, mostly in the Intermountain West and Southeast, showed reduced in-migration or a switch from in- to out-migration. Thirteen states, mostly on the coasts, showed lower levels of out-migration. The migration fortunes of three Sun Belt states— Florida, Texas, and California—showed distinctly different loss and gain patterns in various population groups. ----
The next decade promises massive growth of the senior population, especially in suburbs unaccustomed to housing older people. As the first wave of baby boomers reaches age 65 in less than two years, the senior population is poised to grow by 36 percent from 2010 to 2020. Their numbers will grow fastest in the Intermountain West, the Southeast, and Texas, particularly in metro areas such as Raleigh, NC; Austin, TX; Atlanta, GA; and Boise, ID that already have large pre-senior populations (age 55 to 64). Because the boomers were the nation’s first fully “suburban generation,” their aging in place will cause many major metropolitan suburbs— such as those outside New York and Los Angeles—to “gray” faster than their urban counterparts.
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| | | 42 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 16:26
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bili Why is vastly increasing immigration a 'no-brainer'? You are more concerned with a surplus of RE than a surplus of unemployed.
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| | | 43 | biliruben
ID: 16105237 Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:45
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I think well thought out immigration creates more and better jobs than they displace. It's pretty much the history of our country.
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| | | 44 | biliruben
ID: 16105237 Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 19:40
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Though this is not without short-term pain, particularly among unskilled and semi-skilled workers who don't have the ability or wherewithal to improve their skills. They directly compete with immigrants, who often work harder and are the most motivated to improve their lot. The cream of other countries are often those who immigrate. At least we should hope so. It improves our working stock, and creates consumers (of houses and everything else).
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| | | 45 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 20:00
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To be clear, bili, you're talking about legal immigration, yes? (Just preempting the inevitable here.)
For what it's worth, I agree with you.
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| | | 46 | Razor
ID: 571022618 Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 21:59
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Before you get too involved in an immigration thread, remember that Boldwin once claimed that there were up to 100 million illegal immigrants in the US. Not a typo.
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| | | 47 | biliruben
ID: 16105237 Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 22:36
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Preferably legal, but same rules apply (to quote Filth).
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| | | 48 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 00:07
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So you guys are completely unsympathetic to the poor who are already here and who often have completely given up even looking for a job because they get such poor response in their job search...and you'll just shovecompetition in front of line ahead of them. And of course the poor and minorities in America should vote your way because you care so much for the poor and downtrodden.
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| | | 49 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 00:15
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And if they won't vote for you for some reason import some illegals and sneak them onto the voter rolls. Surely they will be appreciative.
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| | | 51 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 00:51
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"So you guys are completely unsympathetic to the poor who are already here and who often have completely given up even looking for a job because they get such poor response in their job search...and you'll just shovecompetition in front of line ahead of them."
I want the best people working here. If the best people want to come here and work, why do you want to keep them out? You might even see some more doctors that are willing to see Medicare patients or something.
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| | | 52 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 00:57
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Illegals don't vote. They want to have nothing to do with the system at all--that is how they avoid getting sent back.
Really, debating this issue with some conservatives is like older white guys try to dance. After awhile you feel bad even mentioning it anymore.
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| | | 53 | biliruben
ID: 16105237 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 01:12
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I have sympathy for poor everywhere. I have more sympathy for poor that work hard to improve their lot in life, and would like to provide opportunities for those who desire them and are willing to work hard to strive towards the American Dream, regardless of whether they were lucky enough to be born in America or not.
There are many people who appreciate and embody the American spirit that were not fortunate enough to be born here. There are also many people who take their good fortune for granted and aren't willing to do what our forefathers did in order to succeed in this country.
I prefer to not discriminate based on random fortune, and provide opportunities to all people willing to work to make America a better place. The same as my father, Grandfather and Great-Grandfather before them did (I won't discuss my great-uncle. racist murderer that he was).
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| | | 54 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 08:04
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Illegals don't vote. - PD You are quite the comedian. Because they respect the law? Because Democrats do?
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| | | 55 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 09:16
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Because they[illegals] respect the law? Because Democrats do?
As with any group, it's impossible to make generic characterizations like these. I highly doubt you have any contact with any illegals, but I do on a daily basis. Most are law-abiding and hard working. Some are criminals who have no respect for our country. It's important to differentiate. You can't put the drug runner, armed to the teeth, in the same pot with the girl who works 10 hours a day at 8-10 bucks an hour making blinds. I can actually get blinds cheaper direct from China, but it's more important to me to support local manufacturing than make an extra 2 buck profit on a blind. Granted, some of that money is sent home to Mexico, El Salvador and Brazil, but most of it is recycled into the local economy. You ask if illegals or Democrats respect the law, but the owners of this local blind manufacturer are as conservative Republican as it gets. There's a signed picture from former President George W Bush on the office wall.
I have a hard time digesting you using the word 'respect,' because it is a rare occurence when you show any.
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| | | 56 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 09:45
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"As with any group, it's impossible to make generic characterizations like these."
I think I beg to differ. Read his last 10 posts and you'll find 15 to 20 of them!
*rimshot*
(On a serious note, I really hope that the next step in our course on civility will be to eliminate the bashes on entire groups, which are just thinly-veiled personal attacks (and Boldwin knows he's doing it, he isn't stupid).
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| | | 61 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:08
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#54: Baldwin, you should read the rest of the sentence which you quoted. Illegals don't vote because they try to avoid any and all contact with authority.
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| | | 62 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:10
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"There's a signed picture from former President George W Bush on the office wall." - PV Bush was an illegal immigration enabling globalist. Why shouldn't they love him?
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| | | 63 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:13
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B, I also note that while you beg for items of substance, you completely ignored my question in post #51, which I quote to you for convenience:
"I want the best people working here. If the best people want to come here and work, why do you want to keep them out?"
Do you have a reply to that or do you intend to just continue trolling?
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| | | 64 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:25
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Bush was an illegal immigration enabling globalist
Like Reagan and Palin, so what's your point other than glee in throwing one of your own under the bus?
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| | | 65 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:28
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How do you know that a world without borders won't look more like North Korea than the USA? Because it will no longer be this culture softening the human impulses that have produced the horrors of this century and the last. This country won't last forever. In fact it won't last very long at all. I'm in no rush to meet the new boss.
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| | | 66 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:31
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Um, nobody's saying "without any borders". Try not completely changing the question you're allegedly responding to.
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| | | 68 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:40
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Can I get a timeout here?
Baldwin, would you send me an email ASAP?
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| | | 69 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:41
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Do you Skype by any chance, PD?
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| | | 70 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:02
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I wish I knew how--I have clients overseas who do it, but maybe with this new(er) computer I can check it out. My old one was just too slow and full to be of much use in checking it out.
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| | | 71 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:04
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Just google skype, download it, tell me the name you chose, I'll contact you and invite you into a chat. It's a great tool.
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| | | 72 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:06
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I've e-mailed you. If you try my old contact # it won't work. Use the one linked to in my name.
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| | | 73 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:17
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Responded by email. I've got to head to the bank for a few minutes but will check out this as soon as I get back. A slowish week, so it would be good to figure it out. My overseas clients swear by it.
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| | | 74 | Building 7
ID: 471052128 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 14:32
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If you're calling int'l, you should use skype. It's pretty much free. Clean connection, too. I was calling my wife in Singapore when she was working there.
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| | | 75 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 14:50
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Finally it loaded and I'm set up with an account. I don't have a camera or microphone, so my ability to use it is probably limited. But I'm going to poke around a bit.
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| | | 76 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 15:06
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I will need the name you use there.
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| | | 77 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 15:13
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frederick.t.courtright
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| | | 78 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 15:24
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You are now in a chatroom with me.
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| | | 79 | Sludge
ID: 22043218 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 16:12
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My wife always likes to remind me of all the security holes with Skype. Honestly, I'd be nervous if I were you PD.
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| | | 80 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 16:17
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Thanks.
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| | | 81 | biliruben
ID: 461142511 Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 16:18
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PD? PD...?
"Chat room" = boiling pot.
Aw shoot. He's been eaten by the Baldwin monster.
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| | | 82 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 11:17
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Unemployment rises in 43 states in December
Despite wide (but shallow) job gains in November, most states slipped back in December. As pointed out in the piece, the economy isn't strong enough to consistently create jobs yet.
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| | | 83 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 16:26
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As soon as small business can stop looking over their shoulder wondering what new anti-business measure will get passed we can move forward and start hiring. It would take either the dems losing one side of congress or one white house.
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| | | 84 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 19:53
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There is no evidence of small businesses (who have continued to enjoy massive subsidies and tax breaks on virtually every measure this President has pushed for) are "looking over their shoulder" and that this is the reason hiring isn't occurring.
Small business taxes have dropped (and are proposed by Obama to be further cut) under this administration, as have personal taxes for the vast majority of people (including those hoping the start new businesses).
While you yourself might be of the belief that Obama is the new Hitler/Stalin/Idi Amin, businesses tend to not actually care about such fact-free (and fear-driven) cynicism. The business climate sucks because the business climate sucks.
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| | | 85 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 22:10
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Businesses wait when conditions are uncertain. And Obama is always poised to swing at the next businessman. Demonizing businessmen as fat cats is Obama's signature move. He'll find someone at random to demonize everytime he is in trouble. Stuff like Cap-n-Trade and Obama-care are in reality some of the bigest tax inducing moves ever contemplated. The idea of Obama as tax cutter or tax neutral is ridiculous. Illinois has been tax hiking for decades in the form of every imaginable surreptitious fee they could dream up. His moves are so familiar to us in Illinois. Every president brings the mafia style of his state to the oval office. And every businessman who isn't a lovedrunk liberal fears his next move.
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| | | 90 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 10:34
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It's my experience as a small business owner that city, county and state governments play a much bigger role than the federal government. Zoning, licensing, impact fees, commodity prices, leasing rates and insurance requirements trump most federal regulations, depending on the business. OSHA is probably the most feared federal agency for manufacturers, as they have the power to shut you down immediately, like local health departments can do likewise to food serving establishments.
And, of course, there are many businessmen who have benefitted handsomely from some of Obama's policies in the stimulus bill, first time homebuyer incentives, cash for clunkers, rebates on new or upgraded energy saving home appliances and heating and cooling systems.
Demonizing businessmen as fat cats is Obama's signature move
Admittedly, demonizing the banks last week had a profound effect on the markets tanking, but the banking industry, important as it is, is but one business. Most businessmen don't spend every hour of every day fearing or even contemplating much of what Obama is saying, unless they're the small minority whose every move is dictated by what Rush Limbaugh tells them to think. Those businessmen should probably spend more time concentrating on their business than obsessing over political rhetoric steeped in bias.
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| | | 91 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 11:22
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His proclivity to force business' hand in providing comprehensive healthcare is definately throwing cold water on small business who I believe will wait and see unless they see an incredibly lucretive opportunity. They are going to sit on their hands until they learn the true cost of a hire. That's just one area. What is the effect of cap-n-trade mandates? Capital Gains changes? Rolling back the Bush Taxcuts? These things all impact what they are thinking and planning on doing.
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| | | 93 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 12:50
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I'd just like to point out that blaming Obama for Illinois state taxes is utterly asinine. Though it is unfortunate that he is less targeted with his demonization than certain others on this board. If only they could look in the mirror and see how pointless that is.
However, you are right that small businesses need to be a driving force. Of course, when most of the people who would actually START small businesses are scarred ****less because they're too beholden to their current corporate overlords (in the form of little details like health care) to even think about leaving, we're not going to have new small businesses.
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| | | 94 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 12:59
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All health care reforms going through Congress now (including the ones that passed the House and Senate) had massive breaks for small business health care costs. In fact, the huge cost of health care for small businesses drove much of the costing for the bills.
And if you want to know what businesses are feeling these days, try not to link to essays that are over a year old (written before any of the health care legislation was proposed, let alone written). Or, link to something a little more recent by the same writer.
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| | | 95 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 17:05
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Meanwhile, the GOP continues to rail against the stimulus bill that saved 1.2 million jobs.
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| | | 100 | Guru
ID: 330592710 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 10:18
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For the record, I just whacked a few more posts by Boldwin and DWetzel.
The posts had some content that was OK - maybe even of value. But they all ended with personal zingers that were unnecessary, often leading to a greater tendency to respond in kind (or perhaps in "unkind"). And they definitely make the thread more uncomfortable (and annoying) for everyone else.
If you want to continue to respond to each other, you need to dial it back and argue issues without demeaning the intelligence of other posters, and without the insulting tag lines.
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| | | 101 | biliruben
ID: 16105237 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 10:21
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Fine work.
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| | | 102 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 10:34
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Sigh. I disagree. On the last one at least.
Perhaps this requires its own discussion.
Is it never okay to call out another poster when they post something that is either obviously wrong or obviously meant to demean a group of people? As I said in the post (now deleted) in response to PD, if we can't ever do that then this truly is everyone's personal blog, and not likely to be of much value.
If posts (and I am speaking specifically of post 85 in this thread) are allowed to sit there, with no argumentative value and just meant to provoke, and it's not okay to say "that's a really stupid argument", then I'd at least like to know that.
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| | | 103 | biliruben
ID: 16105237 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 10:40
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It is not your job to moderate. If you see a post that is obviously trolling, DON'T respond. Email the moderators.
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| | | 104 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 11:00
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1. What makes you think I haven't?
2. If it's still here after the thread has been moderated, I have to assume it's been deemed "fit to print", right?
3. If it's fit to be left up after moderation has taken place, and yet it's not allowed to say "that's a really dumb thing to say and here's why" (note: NOT "you are really dumb", but "that's a really dumb thing to say, and here's why") then I am pretty much at a loss.
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| | | 105 | Guru
ID: 330592710 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 11:57
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I don't want to sidetrack this discussion.
But if you see something posted by someone else that was apparently allowed to slide, and you still think it was inappropriate, then don't emulate it. Moderating is often a judgment call, and it's unrealistic to expect that all moderators will make the correct call on every post.
There are times when I may allow a marginal post to fly if I think it is directed at someone who I trust to respond appropriately (or who has already responded appropriately).
But you and Boldwin seem to persist in getting your digs in, and until I see a pattern of appropriate banter, I'm going to apply a stiffer standard to your posts directed at each other. You may feel that's inequitable, but I think that most of this forum's users will appreciate that stance.
In that context, posting "That's a dumb idea" may not fly, especially if the intent is clearly to mean "You're dumb to say that."
You can instead say, "I disagree with that statement because..." If it appears that you are wordsmithing an insult just to barely get it past a moderator, then it will probably get topedoed.
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| | | 106 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 12:08
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"There are times when I may allow a marginal post to fly if I think it is directed at someone who I trust to respond appropriately (or who has already responded appropriately)."
The post in question wasn't directed at anyone at all (or if you prefer, it was directed at everyone). So I fail to see how this is relevant.
If a post is allowed to stand in one case and not another, if they are of virtually identical levels of appropriateness, that's a problem. I realize it is not an intractable problem, because moderators are not perfect (I've been one myself, I get it), nor are they on line 24 hours a day. However, if a post is still standing after the thread's been gone over a few times by moderators, it seems like an entirely reasonable assumption to make that other virtually identical posts are equally permissible. And when they are not allowed (presumably by the same moderators), then there is a legitimate reason for concern.
For the record, I don't have a single problem with post 83 or post 91, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. Post 85 contains quite a bit of the type of rhetoric designed to demean and inflame. If you want that to be on the board, then it will be; if you don't, hit your magic button.
But if you're going to allow it, but not allow someone to say "that's BS and here's why", then you're going down the wrong road entirely.
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| | | 107 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 12:12
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And for the record I am really, truly, not trying to be an obnoxious jerk about this. But if someone (leave out who it is) says something patently absurd and content-free, I presume I have the right to say "that's patently absurd and content-free" without having my post deleted and the original post not deleted.
Is that an unreasonable thought process here?
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| | | 108 | Mith
ID: 43914286 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 12:12
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I don't have any issue with the civility of post 85.
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| | | 109 | bibA
ID: 01116297 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 12:25
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DWetzel- Do you believe that post 85 is directed at you? Or specifically anyone on these boards? Or just that the poster is plain wrong?
I think you or anyone else will not be moderated if you post incorrect information, as long as it isn't directed towards someone else who posts here.
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| | | 110 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 12:32
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Is it calling me out by name and calling me those things, no.
It is, essentially, that whether the poster is right or not (and obviously I happen to believe he is wrong), it is a post which is free of any useful content AND heavily spiced with language that is both designed to inflame and designed to call anyone who disagrees with the poster an idiot (or believing in "ridiculous" ideas. I could tolerate a decent amount of the latter if there were any actual content in the post as well.
Perhaps my judgment is clouded by the other hundred posts I've seen which have been more directly insulting, but I feel like that sort of post doesn't do a single thing to advance the discussion AND ought to run afoul of the last two paragraphs of Guru's post 105.
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| | | 111 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 12:34
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"I think you or anyone else will not be moderated if you post incorrect information, as long as it isn't directed towards someone else who posts here."
By definition, if it is posted here (and not specifically directed at someone else), it's directed at me, no?
If I get hit with a bunch of shotgun pellets, it isn't much of a defense to say "oh, I wasn't aiming specifically AT you, I was just aiming at the front door of the house we both walk in and out of, it's just a horrible coincidence that you were hit".
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| | | 112 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 12:57
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How about not taking any posts here personally, even if they might have been sent that way?
We can't always moderate other's posts, but we can always moderate our own.
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| | | 113 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 13:01
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I will endeavor to do better on my end, but if that involves having to sit there and nod and say "yup, you're right, everyone who ever agrees with person X on anything is a drooling idiot", having made it clear that I agree with person X, then you are asking me to tread a much tighter rope than you are asking of others.
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| | | 114 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 13:17
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Maybe. But others (at least right now) seem less intent upon believing that silence equals agreement with the posts you are responding to.
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| | | 115 | Tree, on lunch
ID: 570552512 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 13:53
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Dwetz - i'm probably not the best person here to be giving advice out, but i've kind of accepted that some of the baseless, thoughtless, generalized insults tossed out in posts like 85 are just a fact of this board.
certain phrases geared toward a certain segment of the population and meant to inflame are going to come with a bit of regularity. But to keep this forum a reasonable place for discussion we've got to do our damnedest to stay out of the fray.
If Wink Martindale comes on here and posts "Man. Liberals are clueless. They're destroying the country, and if you're one of them, you're no better than Osama Bin Laden," it's best to let that go.
the majority of posters and lurkers here know it's a silly statement, and it probably serves more purpose to just leave it alone, for a myriad of reasons.
it's frustrating, *I* know.
but also have faith in your fellow posters here. when they tell you to reel it in, they're probably right.
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| | | 116 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 14:13
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I appreciate the advice. And I'm trying to reel it in. I'm just trying to make sure that I don't have the drain to the lake on the end of my line.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we're truly gung-ho into being civil and respectful, why can't we throw out those baseless, thoughtless, generalized insults? If we all agree that there isn't any point to them, why leave 'em up?
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| | | 117 | Guru
ID: 330592710 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 16:36
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And I appreciate your willingness to play the role of punching bag as we try to work out the new ground rules, DW. I know it's not easy.
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| | | 118 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 16:58
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Don't worry, I know it's not an easy job and it's not like this is something that's been working seamlessly for years. Again, I'm truly not trying to be a jerk about it or out to get Boldwin (even though I disagree with him basically always, but if we all agreed it'd be a pretty awful board too). Just trying to figure out where the line is so I don't get particularly close to it, but without having the line shoved right through my solar plexus at the same time.
And frankly, if someone sees me make a content-free post, please call me on it. (But don't delete it!!! HA!)
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| | | 119 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 19:21
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These numbers are still way too high. But this graph is kinda cool:
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| | | 120 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Sun, Feb 07, 2010, 08:39
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Went on Craigs list this morning looking at the jobs section. Shoveling and plowing jobs, lots. Look what God did: Put people to work, shoveling sidewalks, plowing driveways, shoveling driveways, plowing roads, plowing parking lots. He did it with out the help of Nancy Pelosi's House of representatives, Harry Reids Senate, OBamas White House. No lobbyists. He did it for everybody to see, used all the Main Street Media to show what he was doing (now thats transparencey). No tax money was used to create the snow. Plus he did it on a weekend so the majority of the people did not miss any work and could watch in the safety of their warm homes. Now thats the way the "stimulus bill" should work.
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| | | 121 | Mith
ID: 43914286 Sun, Feb 07, 2010, 09:01
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Now thats the way the "stimulus bill" should work.
It should provide one day of physical labor at somewhere around minimum wage?
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| | | 122 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Sun, Feb 07, 2010, 10:13
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It should provide one day of physical labor at somewhere around minimum wage?
Teach a man to shovel snow, he'll work for a day. Teach a man to make it snow, he'll work for a lifetime.
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| | | 123 | WiddleAvi
ID: 44025819 Sun, Feb 07, 2010, 13:19
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I know you were sarcastic but all the loss from businesses closed as well as overtime for city workers to clean roads I am sure make up for any extra shoveling work.
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| | | 124 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Feb 07, 2010, 15:25
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Not sure where to put this, so I'll dump it here:
NYT with a decent editorial: The Truth About The Deficit
Some good quotes. Here's one:
So what are the immediate fiscal lessons here? The first lesson is that spending without taxing is a recipe for huge deficits, and that running big deficits when the economy is expanding only sets the country up for bigger deficits when the economy contracts. The second lesson is that once a deep recession takes hold, slashing government spending is not going to solve the problem. It will only make it worse.
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| | | 126 | Boldwin
ID: 2155174 Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 07:04
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Reason zillion+1 to hate liberalism.
And that's how Obama's campaign gets funded.
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| | | 127 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 07:25
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re: 126
Thus the state created an ersatz employer and an ersatz "bargaining unit" against which what was essentially an ersatz union could organize.
i realize at this point you believe Obama personally nailed Jesus to the cross and that he was the puppetmaster who controlled Hitler, but it's still silly to blame everything on him.
The State of Michigan did this, not DC. But if you want to blame the president, might as well start with Bush. The practice is nothing new.
The federal question may be raised soon, as other states have pursued similar unionization schemes over the past decade, primarily at the behest of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees and the Service Employees International Union, better known as the SEIU. Fourteen states have now enabled home-based day-care providers to be organized into public-employee unions, affecting about 233,000 people. And nine have done so with home health-care providers. The idea to unionize in this way was hatched in California, though ironically Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has vetoed legislation to unionize child-care providers.
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| | | 129 | Boldwin
ID: 111562213 Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 10:41
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Did he promise to be Ronald Reagan while I wasn't looking?
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| | | 130 | Tree
ID: 23143812 Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 11:37
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the point is that he's not the Conservative savior that the wingnuts were painting him to be a month ago. He's left of some Democrats.
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| | | 131 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 11:38
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If he promised to be Ronald Reagan he would be considered a RINO at this point in the GOP...
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| | | 132 | Boldwin
ID: 111562213 Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 19:02
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If the only thing favorable he ever does for conservatives is prevent commie-care it will be the greatest thing Massechusetts has done for the republic in four decades.
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| | | 133 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 19:09
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Yes, because what we have going on right now is so much better. And less costly. And fits in exactly with our religious mandates.
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| | | 134 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 21:08
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GOP - Brown Turncoat
A month after being crowned the darling of national conservatives, Republican Sen. Scott Brown of Massachusetts is being branded "Benedict Brown" for siding with Democrats in favor of a jobs bill endorsed by the Obama administration.
The four other GOP senators who broke ranks — Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins of Maine, George Voinovich of Ohio and Christopher "Kit" Bond of Missouri — also were criticized on Tuesday. But Brown was the big target on conservative Web sites, talk shows and even the Facebook page his campaign has promoted as an example of his new-media savvy.
.. conservative columnist Michelle Malkin used her blog to accuse Voinovich of being a traitor..
Brown got little such leeway, despite campaigning as an "independent Republican" and publicly eschewing national supporters.
National Republican groups, as well as "tea party" members and an array of conservative special interests, all claimed a share of the credit for his upset win in the battle to succeed legendary Democratic Sen. Edward M. Kennedy.
They felt especially justified after funneling millions to Brown's campaign, including $348,000 on late television ads paid by the California-based Tea Party Express.
"You've already turned out to be as big an idiot as Obama," said one Facebook poster. "Enjoy your one term as senator."
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| | | 136 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Apr 04, 2010, 21:51
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Unemployment still at 9.7%, though more jobs added than in the last 3 years.
I think we might be entering a bit of the expectation game (where whether numbers are below or above expectations start driving the stories), but this is cautiously optimistic news.
I'd be *very* interested in seeing where the numbers are in April & May for housing construction and heavy industry.
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| | | 137 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 23:21
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Reihan Salam @ NRO with a good piece in opposition to an overly-optimistic piece by Daniel Gross
Sets the right tone, I think.
The Gross piece is fine, as it were. The economy needs cheerleaders at times, and that's OK. But the best way into a double dip recession is by cheerleading without job creation.
[Second best is to deliberately mislead Americans about the strength of their economy, in order to keep expectations from driving anything at all. That way Obama gets blamed, see.]
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| | | 138 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 23:29
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Lots of information in the Beige Book to digest. 538 notes:
The overall conclusion of both these report is clear: the economy is expanding, albeit at a slower pace. Personal consumption expenditures are in an uptrend, business investment is increasing and real estate -- while not a hot bed of activity -- is not the drag it once was. However, there is still a long way to go. The unemployment rate is still incredibly high and initial unemployment claims need to start dropping soon.
There appears to be little discussion given to the fact that a flat housing market hinders mobility for workers, contributing to flat jobs numbers. Otherwise, we're about where we should be: Conservative purchasing by consumers (including paying down debt) and some green shoots in the economy in areas where we hope to see them.
It does appear that the worries of a double dip recession are behind us, but IMO the longer we are in a slow rebuilding phase the better it is for the economy long-term.
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| | | 139 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 08:32
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The flat housing market only hinders mobility if we artificially prop up prices and keep people in houses they can't afford.
A quick drop to housing's true level is best for the economy.
The tax credit was a hugely expensive boondoggle that helped a few realtors and brokers, but hurt the economy.
There were better, cheaper ways to soften the blow, and now they are talking about a 3 month extension.
I would hold my breath on a double-dip recession.
A long-delayed wave of foreclosures seems to be coming through the pipe, at least around here, and the bulk of the stimulus has already been spent.
I'm guessing we see flat to increasing unemployment in the end of 2010.
We need a jobs bill if you want to maintain our modest gains.
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| | | 140 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 16:37
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Adam Posen (pdf) of the Bank of England’s Monetary Policy Committee:
"Cultures which make a public fixation of virginal maturity, of a stylized maiden’s reputation, tend to be backward superstitious cultures that impede people exercising autonomy and making responsible choices."
hymen-worshipers fuking hard working Americans desperate for jobs.
The irony.
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| | | 141 | Boldwin
ID: 135311520 Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 20:38
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Yeah illegitimacy and fatherless families produce such sterling results. Ask any teacher.
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| | | 143 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Fri, Jun 25, 2010, 08:29
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The poor don't vote.
More importantly, the poor don't make campaign contributions.
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| | | 144 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Fri, Jun 25, 2010, 13:53
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And whether or not that's their intent, the result of tea party policies would be to bend em over and give hard and nasty to the poor.
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| | | 145 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jun 25, 2010, 14:03
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The GOP has discovered fiscal austerity at the exact moment it hurts the working poor more than ever, unfortunately.
Unemployment and other stimulus monies have kept people working through the recession--this is the exact wrong time to yank that support away. There is no better way to ensure a double dip than the knock out revenue for millions of people right now.
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| | | 146 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Fri, Jun 25, 2010, 17:10
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Is this the bill where they were trying to extend temporary unemployment benefits beyond 99 weeks (2 years) ?
How long do you think temporary unemployment benefits should last? 7 years? No limit? 2.5 years? Is it mean to even ask these questions?
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| | | 147 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jun 25, 2010, 17:15
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The bill was to extend the end of benefits for those who exhausted their eligibility until the end of November. So the bill was for an additional 5 months of benefits.
According the the Department of Labor, about 2 million people will have exhausted their benefits between June 1 (when the bill would have been retroactive to) until after Congress' July 4th recess (when the bill, at its earliest, could be reconsidered).
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| | | 148 | biliruben
ID: 16105237 Fri, Jun 25, 2010, 17:34
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We running around 10% unemployment are vastly under-utilizing our production capabilities. Leaving aside whether it's "mean" to cause greater suffering to the unemployed, it just makes no sense to take away further stimulus from the economy right now.
It would be one thing if there was some benefit from causing vast suffering among millions of our fellow Americans, but to the contrary, we are harming the economy on top of screwing the poor.
There is no point other some bizarre notion that masochism is good.
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| | | 149 | Boldwin
ID: 185342522 Fri, Jun 25, 2010, 23:34
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It's all about signaling. A free market provides accurate signals. Central planning sends all the wrong signals.
If the world was four people, we could all share and get along and put resources exactly where they are truly needed.
But instead, in Bili's scenario, the people putting up the money are completely disconnected from the decision-making and feel no urgency or reward to keep producing. The people spending the money don't feel the pain of producing that wealth and squander it. The people receiving the money don't get to carefully pick just the help they really need, they just take whatever is available.
The Free Market maximizes the incentive to produce exactly what is needed in the greatest possible quantity. The exact needs are communicated by people carefully shopping instead of standing in line for whatever the state makes available.
Wanting to stand in a line at a nearly empty marxist grocery store for whatever random product came in today is masochism. Forcing people in that direction after the experience of the twentieth century is sadism.
Even an intelligent marxist has to admit it.
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| | | 150 | Boldwin
ID: 185342522 Fri, Jun 25, 2010, 23:40
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And the more the government arbitrarily and unpredictibly jerks the economy and the investors around, the worse they make things.
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| | | 151 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 01:05
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The signal now is: The GOP doesn't care about the economy, so long as they can hurt Obama politically.
Sorry, but the GOP and its apologists have no credibility when it comes to economic competence. I realize you've made your bed with them and you want to make your painted lady look as good as possible. But they aren't very good at the very kinds of things we need good people to talk about.
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| | | 152 | Boldwin
ID: 185342522 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 01:06
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They still don't have the 'honest signals' thing figured out. Still authoritarian. Same corrupt class on top. Slave labor making up for the shortage of real capitalism. Just slap some white guys on the cover and call it capitalism.
China. It may be the future but it sure isn't utopia.
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| | | 153 | Boldwin
ID: 185342522 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 01:12
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PD
Good intententions and good words are all the good your side will ever produce.
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| | | 154 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 04:00
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The stimulus package saved about 2 million jobs, cut taxes for about 95% of Americans (and all small business), and extended unemployment benefits to keep us from sliding into a deeper recession.
And these are just the things that economists across the political spectrum can agree upon.
What has "your side" done? Cut taxes while raising spending to the point where, even now, you grudgingly want to do something about it. Complained about a "marxist" takeover. Blamed "government" for what the "free market" failed to do: self-correct to the point where we don't have the deepest and longest recession in generations. Oh, and wondered loud and long about Obama's birthplace.
The problem with the economy isn't the government trying to keep people employed in the meantime. The problem was that the previous administration thought that keeping away from the "free market" was the proper (Hooverian) strategy toward everything. Still haven't learned your lessons on that? You betcha!
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| | | 155 | Boldwin
ID: 185342522 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 05:48
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There was nothing 'free market' about the Community Reinvestment Act' and if you want to blame the repeal of 'Glass-Steagall', which is a fair point, investigate deliberate market manipulation around the crash while you are at it. It wouldn't be the first time Soros was convicted for bankrupting a country and rigging the market.
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| | | 156 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 08:29
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There was nothing 'free market' about the Community Reinvestment Act'
Why do you cling to this flase notion that the "free market" was a viable alternative to what has been done by Obama to soften the blow of the staggering economic recession we find ourselves in?
Putting aside your obsession with lies about Soros, your other obsession (that of taking up the current anti-Obama talking points handed to you by the right wing media) has the added benefit of ignoring reality. What's next--taking investment advice from some derivatives guys?
I've said it before, but this is like an out-of-work family forced to buy groceries on their credit cards, then getting slammed by their neighbors for not being "fiscally-prudent." You do what you have to do to get through the current problem in one piece. Otherwise, the recovering will be that much longer and harder for everyone.
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| | | 157 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 09:43
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Hush, PD. The Marxist bogeyman in the closet will hear you!
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| | | 158 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 11:50
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"Good intententions and good words are all the good your side will ever produce. "
Even if this total lie were true, it'd still be MASSIVELY better than anything your side has produced over the last decade or two.
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| | | 159 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 13:26
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Glad you left out the Reagan decade.
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| | | 160 | Mith
ID: 37540118 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 14:18
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He should have included the Reagan decade. The fiscal policy was hardly different from Bush's. The primary distinguishing factors were the starting points.
The political right loved loved loved deficit spending until a Democratic govenrment knew it was the only way to keep the economy running through a crisis.
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| | | 161 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 20:30
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"MASSIVELY" would have been a stretch, to be fair. At least the massive deficit spending wasn't combined with running the economy into the ground.
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| | | 162 | Boldwin
ID: 185342522 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 20:34
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The political right loved loved loved deficit spending...
correction: 1) Too many republican politicians talk the fiscally conservative talk to win the primaries and elections and then fall right in with the horsetrading with liberals and do totally ignore the deficit... [We call them unprincipled RINO's. The kinda guys you liberals say republicans should nominate.] ...Thus the Tea Party to throw those overspending republicans out right along with the liberal spenders.
2) Then there are the other conservative spending...and admittedly all spending is deficit spending at this point...however certain spending is considered life and death for the country like the military and stopping communist/jihadi imperialism. This does not fall under the rubric of 'loving deficit spending'. This falls under the category of, 'if the only way I can save the country is to trade a vote for a 'Robert Byrd Memorial Knitting Museum', so be it. Note only one party is deliberately insisting on squandering in that example.
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| | | 163 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 21:14
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Now he gets all nuancey.
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| | | 164 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jun 26, 2010, 22:48
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The military spending hides some of the most wasteful spending their is, yet because it is earmarked for the military somehow we're supposed to just suck it up.
Hundreds of programs that the military takes on are foisted upon them by Congressman interested in bringing military-industrial complex jobs to their districts.
People like Bill Clinton, who cut military spending based upon what the Pentagon said they actually wanted, got skewered by the Right for cutting spending for the military. Obama took it on the chin from the right, for cutting the F-22 and the Osprey, neither one of which the military really wanted in the first place.
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| | | 166 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 12:59
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Isn't it outstanding that a jobs bill took until 2010 even though this country has been bleeding jobs for years? "How's that hopey changey thing working out for ya?"
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| | | 167 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:04
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I must have missed the Republican jobs bills they proposed all those years.
Oh wait, there weren't any.
How's that "everything will be fine if we just do the same stuff that got us into this mess" attitude working for ya?
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| | | 168 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:16
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I, for one, am glad there is an adult in charge. Lord know what crap we'd be mucking through with a McCain/Palin Administration.
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| | | 169 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 18:42
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Isn't it outstanding that a jobs bill took until 2010 even though this country has been bleeding jobs for years? "How's that hopey changey thing working out for ya?"
so because it's long over due, we shouldn't start now? you're opposed to it simply because it should have happened earlier?
that's the whole point of this "hopey changey thing" - making changes that need to be made.
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| | | 170 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 13:25
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I, for one, am glad there is an adult in charge.
Did I miss an election?
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| | | 172 | Boldwin
ID: 537571014 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 16:05
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In their hearts they really believe the only reason there isn't full employment and longshoreman wages for everyone is because of a lack of progressive willpower.
Just get together with Kim Yong Il and Castro and write up a law saying so.
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| | | 173 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 21:00
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actually, full employment would be the worst thing that could possibly happen to business. Ask any economist. 0% unemployment, would mean no expansion, because no workers could be hired. Wages, would sky rocket since the only person you COULD hire, would already have a job. Benefit packages, would grow to an unimaginable level.
No Boldy, total employment, is the LAST thing this or any other country needs.
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| | | 174 | Frick
ID: 1076109 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 21:32
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Most economists would say unemployment around 4% is health for an economy and would say that is full employment.
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| | | 175 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 23:33
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Exactly. Full employment for economists is not 0% employment, but the state where nearly everyone who wants to work gets a job. Frictional unemployment can mean between 2-4% of workers (or so) would not be currently employed--but this is a natural state where some are between jobs, attrition causes others to retire while new workers are coming aboard.
Last time we had sustained full employment was in Clinton's last year.
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| | | 176 | Boldwin
ID: 267391022 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 23:49
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What a bogus diversionary tactic typical of those afflicted with cognitive dissonance.
The point is that you cannot fix this with more government. Government is the problem not the solution. It didn't protect us from criminals like Soros' manipulations. It builds bubbles doomed to crash. It orders banks to make bad loans. It freezes business with uncertainty over what heavy-handed government move is next. It is no benefit whatsoever in creating jobs. Everything it does discourages healthy natural sustainable business growth in line with the actual needs of the consumers.
You cannot wave a government wand and create real job growth.
You can however shovel money to Obama's powerbase, public sector workers which is what this latest move is all about.
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| | | 177 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 23:58
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A strawman, poorly-put.
No one (at least, no one on these boards) believes government is going to "fix" this mess. But we do believe government is in the best position to mitigate the worst of the problems, and to self-correct so that the next downturn isn't made worse by the kinds of things the GOP did which made this one particularly nasty.
We didn't like the bank bailout, but having another Great Depression on our hands because banks start tumbling like dominoes because, God forbid, a Government "of the people" sat on their hands, is decidedly Hooverian.
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| | | 178 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 00:24
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The magic of the unregulated free market fcuked us but-good, ran us up a 10 trillion dollar bill that went into the culprit's pockets, and 13 trillion in faux-wealth that made the middle-class look the other way, vanished.
Now we are struggling to mitigate the disaster with band-aids on slashed arteries, and still the free-marketeers refuse to look in the mirror and admit their mantra carried to their dreamed extremes is the death of the middle class and our very way of life.
You've had your chance, demonstrated ably that little taxes and less regulation is the way to the destruction of the middle-class and a gift-wrap to the riches of our nation to the laps of the corporate overlords and rule-makers.
Yet you howl to turn our nation into a divided nation of the 1% dominating the impoverished and defeated 99%, with no playing field left to play on, just a sheer cliff, with the rich pissing down from the heights.
Open your eyes and say "No thanks." Fight for our country before the Baldwins of the world give it away.
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| | | 179 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 07:49
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So you're saying.......Republicans are bad. And Democrats are good.
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| | | 180 | Frick
ID: 54746117 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 09:08
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One of the key causes of the banking crisis was the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act by the Gramm-Leach-Billey Act, signed by President Clinton. While it was passed by a Republican controlled House and Senate it was approved by a majority of Democrats in both as well.
The same could be said of the massive spending during the Bush administration, the Democrats were in control of the House and Senate for the majority of his Presidency.
Saying any issue is clearly the result of one side is to often the case here, but widely simplistic and seems to lead to bickering that amounts to my dad is stronger than your dad between children.
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| | | 181 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 09:11
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First, biliruben did not name a party, just ideals.
Second, the GOP controlled the House and Senate for the majority of Bush's term.
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| | | 182 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 09:56
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The point is that you cannot fix this with more government.
I would only amend that you cannot fix MOST THINGS with more government. Not just this. :)
You cannot wave a government wand and create real job growth.
No but you can wave it and destroy it though.
The magic of the unregulated free market fcuked us but-good, ran us up a 10 trillion dollar bill that went into the culprit's pockets, and 13 trillion in faux-wealth that made the middle-class look the other way, vanished.
No one wants the Wild West biliruben, but you can't brow beat the private sector either and be surprised that we're still bleeding jobs.
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| | | 183 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 09:56
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But all of Frick's points are still pretty valid.
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| | | 184 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 10:18
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Except I see much more comfort and aid to the private sector, and very little brow-beating. Please provide examples.
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| | | 185 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 10:46
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The reason we are still bleeding jobs is because demand is down - i.e. folks have little money to buy stuff.
Why would a company hire to make houses, tractors, tvs etc... when nobody is buying those products?
Private companies are making rational decisions not to expand production because the products they would make would just sit on shelves/tracts/lots.
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| | | 186 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 10:48
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The implication being, if we stimulate job growth, even temporary job growth, it will stimulate demand, and hence private hiring.
This is basic economics.
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| | | 187 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 11:03
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Saying any issue is clearly the result of one side is to often the case here, but widely simplistic and seems to lead to bickering that amounts to my dad is stronger than your dad between children.
The deliberate actions of the Bush Administration, aided by a Republican controlled House (as well as a Senate, which was Republican from 1995-2007 except for about a 1 1/2 year break) all made this current problem much worse.
Were there actions involving Democrats which also contributed? You bet. But saying "the other side has some mud too!" isn't going to get you out of the blame for starting the problem in the first place. [And yes, the amendment to the Glass-Steagall Act was, IMO, a mistake--part of Clinton's pro-business leanings which are unacknowledged by the Right but got us in trouble here. That's why Obama has proposed the Volcker Rule. And why McCain suggested re-instituting the whole original act. But that's neither here not there).
The executive decisions to curtail (in some cases, end) regulatory enforcement by the Bush White House (which, as you might recall, had virtually no differentiation between the White House and the Justice Departments), as well as a "starve the beast" economic policy for the government, both made the problems much worse and made it more difficult for the government to respond.
Economically, the 00's were all about Republican House members high-fiving each other for cutting regulation and taxes for business, all the while spending on daddy's credit card like a Spring Breaker in Mexico.
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| | | 188 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 13:56
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No, I'm not saying dems good. Dems, including obama, are at least acting like morons right now pandering to the deficit hawks when they need to be pulling out all stops to avoid deflation and falling into an increasinllgly likely double-dip recession.
Reassure folks on medium to long-term fiscal discipline and deficit reduction, then spend like hell in the short term to get the economy out of it's malaise before we turn into Japan.
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| | | 189 | Frick
ID: 54746117 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 14:10
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I'm not on either side. I would say that I'm moderate or libertarian, but lean fiscally conservative and social liberal.
Both the Republicans and Democrats have been incompetent for far to long, I would love to have great, but I'll settle for mildly competent at this point.
I still post here because there are some posters that make excellent points and one of my favorite quotes is "A mind once expanded, can never be forced back to its original shape." Do I agree with every poster here, far from it, but I at least want here their viewpoints and explanations. I tend to post more conservative ideas or thoughts to try and at least spark some actual debate.
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| | | 190 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 14:40
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Like all things, both on private and public side, smart people with good intentions can implement effective policies.
Government does not have a monopoly on waste and incompetence, and the private sector is not particularly good at doing much beyond maximizing investor profits. Sometimes that aligns well with the public good and should be encouraged. Many times it doesn't, or only does with effective oversight. That's where we need effective government to step in.
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| | | 191 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 13:13
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Except I see much more comfort and aid to the private sector, and very little brow-beating. Please provide examples.
You see the government helping wounded animals that should have been run over by the semi on the highway instead of being saved. The banks should have failed and the autos should have failed. We now have bought ourselves a decade or more of no growth and high unemployment. Look at Japan's lost decade in the 90s and ask yourself if you are ready to live through that.
This is an example of the Obama Administration pounding business. AT&T 1 Billion Charge for Obamacare Caterpillar At 100 Million Do you think these guys are taking this lying down? They're gonna lay people off to make up the shortfall.
Taxes are going up at the end of the year, cap and trade will be on the horizon, and the deficit has to mean that all of our taxes will increase. Tax cuts are not a partisan thing. JFK did it and it worked. Clinton cut the capital gains tax and we boomed. Reagan's tax cuts worked magnificently. But the guy we have now thinks Make Work projects are going to accomplish anything.
You can't plan a business and create jobs if you're gonna get penalized just for opening the door. Like it or not biliruben we are in a global horserace with guys that do it much cheaper and quite frankly the quality is there or its catching up. Those guys want our jobs. We are gonna be like the Soviet Union where we will lose a war without a shot being fired. Government has got to partner with business. That does not mean you let them pee in the Gulf Of Mexico or BK the financial system without recourse, but it does mean that if a guy wants to build something you give him all the help you can.
The problem in this economy is that everybody thought their homes were the money tree and the equity would never dry up and they ran up the debt. You're not gonna fix a debt problem with Make Work garbage. Give people and businesses tax cuts to pay off debt and incentive capital expenses. That's how you'll do it. Now all we've got is a bunch of construction workers busy today but they will be laid off when the weather gets bad in the fall.
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| | | 192 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 13:15
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The problem in this economy is that everybody thought their homes were the money tree and the equity would never dry up and they ran up the debt.
Exactly. And this was utilized by those doing the lending as well. And those selling the financial instruments. In fact, it was exploited by them.
Meanwhile, Make Work is exactly what we need in the short term until we get back on track.
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| | | 193 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 13:18
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Both the Republicans and Democrats have been incompetent for far to long I'm writing in Michael Bloomberg for President. I don't know a whole lot about him but I do know no incumbent is getting my vote. He's the most powerful independent I can think of. You're right. Republicans had it and blew it. The Democrats have run things for four years now with the last two almost being a monopoly on power and things are worse.
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| | | 194 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 13:19
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Meanwhile, Make Work is exactly what we need in the short term until we get back on track.
We have been trying to get back on track for over two years. How long you gonna go?
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| | | 195 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 14:11
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The stimulus was nearly half tax cuts, and most economists thought we needed at least 4 times the real (non-taxcut) stimulus we provided to make up for the drop in production capacity.
I'm a little dense sometimes, but reading through your response, I am having trouble delineating many actual, real hardships Obama and congress have placed on businesses.
I've wrote before about the tears I've shed for CAT, recording multimillion dollar profits annually, and I seriously doubt they are decreasing production for any other reason but lack of demand.
If you could just make A numbered list, then I could more easily separate the hardships from the hot air.
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| | | 196 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 14:15
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I don't know a whole lot about him but I do know no incumbent is getting my vote.
there is so much that can be taken from that statement, it is mind boggling. but hey, i'm ok with you voting for him - but i'll help you with the issues:
He is:
1. Pro-choice ("Reproductive choice is a fundamental human right and we can never take it for granted. On this issue, you're either with us or against us."
2. Pro-stem-cell research, referring to being against it as "insanity".
3. Pro-gay marriage (“I think anybody should be allowed to marry anybody")
4. Anti-death penalty
5. Pro-education reform
6. A proponent of making sweeping changes regarding climate change and the environment ("We now know beyond a doubt that global warming is a reality. And the question we must all answer is, what are we going to do about it?")
7. COMPLETELY IN FAVOR OF AMNESTY *and* CITIZENSHIP for illegal immigrants already here ("We're not going to deport 12 million people, so let's stop this fiction. Let's give them permanent status.")
8. VERY bold on his statements about immigration into this country in regards to border contrll and so forth ("It’s as if we expect border control agents to do what a century of communism could not: defeat the natural market forces of supply and demand... and defeat the natural human desire for freedom and opportunity. You might as well as sit in your beach chair and tell the tide not to come in. As long as America remains a nation dedicated to the proposition that "all men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness," people from near and far will continue to seek entry into our country.")
9. understanding that taxation is necessary ("Taxes are not good things, but if you want services, somebody's got to pay for them, so they're a necessary evil.")
10. in favor of smoking bans, trans-fat bans, and strongly supports things such as needle exchanges, free condoms, and anything else that can help stop the spread of AIDS.
11. VERY concerned about the widening gap between the rich and the poor - ("This society cannot go forward, the way we have been going forward, where the gap between the rich and the poor keeps growing.")
i hope that helps. it's a very strong statement that you'd support Bloomberg. Another independent you should look into supporting is Bernie Sanders, former mayor of Burlington, Vermont, former member of the House, and current Senator.
he's also an independent.
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| | | 197 | Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 17:17
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That was a great post, Tree. Still wouldn't vote for Bloomberg, but I agree with him on those issues.
I'm just afraid that he would seek to repeal the 22nd Amendment.
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| | | 198 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 19:45
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I was a Bloomberg supporter until he forced the term limit change at the end of his 2nd (and what should have been his final) term. He even blasted Giuliani when he tried to pull the same shite at the end of his 2nd term. Bloomberg has also expanded Rudy's affront to our Constitutional protection from unwarranted search and seizure.
My wife was teaching 7th grade English for the NYC Board of Ed when Bloomberg took his stand against the city policy of automatic promotion to the 4th grade. He didn't have the necessary votes on the board to get it done and bent the meaning of some ambiguously worded executive authority to assert himself the authourity to remove board members who disagree with him and appoint their replacements.
Further, his (and Rudy's) record on improving student test scores is a sham. Incentivizing schools and teachers to get higher scores leads more to school-assisted cheating than it does to better students. Similarly, there are increasing questions about the way the city reports seemingly ever- improving crime stats.
Overall he's been a net gain for the city and far more principled and effective than at least his two previous predecessors. But I couldn't vote for him again for any other office. His ego and disregard for limits of both executive power and policy are a dangerous combination.
I also suspect he'd support a very hawkish foreign policy, but that's a guess.
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| | | 199 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 20:17
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Also, in listing his liberal-friendly attributes Tree forgot to mention that he's the NRA's public enemy #1.
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| | | 200 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 20:27
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Also, in listing his liberal-friendly attributes Tree forgot to mention that he's the NRA's public enemy #1.
i never claimed perfection. :oD
i just appreciate left behind coming around with his politics. it's been a swift shift for him. i guess we taught him well.
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| | | 201 | Boldwin
ID: 4070134 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 05:09
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How is Bernie Sanders an independent? He's a card carrying commie and proud to say so.
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| | | 202 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 09:08
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Here are the facts. The Republicans had their chance and ruined it. We could have had an empire after Reagan but between "no new taxes", Clinton was good but how come the left likes him after NAFTA(?), then the massive spending over the past eight years by the Republicans. Now the Democrats have had things for four years and look like a bunch of idiots. There are no excuses for the Democrats poor performance. None. You Democrats here don't even try.
We need plan C and I say that's an independent President. I don't agree with a lot of things Bloomberg has to say, but this election in 2012 is a one issue campaign for me. Jobs. Who is best able to get us to 6% unemployment? It ain't Obama and you know what, if he does get it that low in 2012 I'll vote for him. But it ain't gonna happen. I think Bloomberg is the guy to do it.
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| | | 203 | tree on the evo
ID: 4251457 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 10:27
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Left behind - when presented the facts, you'd still vote for a guy more liberal than Obama...I can't fault you for that...
Baldwin - he's been an independent for over 30 years now. Granted, he leans socialist, but the differences in words that end in -ist or -ism are so lost on you, that its not worth discussing that point with you any further...
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| | | 204 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 10:48
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#201: He's registered independent. He is a proud socialist (not communist), and refers to himself as such.
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| | | 205 | Mith
ID: 2672547 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 11:16
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202 TLB
You Democrats here don't even try.
How do you know which ones are the Democrats? I've been posting here near a decade and couldn't tell you.
I'd also offer that many of us who supported government intervention to stem the economic crisis have laid out and often repeated and supported extensive argumrnts in favor of those policies.
With all due respct, TLB, economics is clearly not your strong suit (in honesty it's not mine either). But gaps in your comprehension became clear when you insisted that auto and bank bailout money wold have been better spent as corporate welfare checks sent to businesses that aren't in trouble, and that this process would somehow improve employment numbers in the US.
The principles you seem to fail to understand don't get any more basic. You don't seem willing to acknowledge when you say 'you Dems [whoever it is you mean by that] don't even try,' that in a consumer economy, businesses hurt when demand falls off and that vaporizing thousands of jobs overnight across industries which are most crucial to our overal economic strength would have a shocking and devastating impact on the entire rest of the economy.
Other clues were your displayed ignorance of the how the stimulus package was intended to work and inability to discuss it's effectiveness in those terms, apparent belief that the Republicans' contribution to the economic collapse was "excessive spending," reliance on analogies mostly void of relevent point (failing businesses are wounded animals? - what part of the analogy are the workforces who would have otherwise been laid off? The flattened entrail stains all over the asphalt resulting from your policy of letting the treatably wounded animal die a swift but agonizing death?).
And for the record your man for the job, Michael Bloomberg:
* Has deployed property tax increases to close budget gaps (he understands that fiscal conservatism is not an anti-tax position). * Supports increased regulation of the financial industry. * Supported the bank bailouts. * Wants to exponentially increase the number of foreign workers in this country.
I have no idea how you reconcile that record with your stated positions in this forum to arrive that Bloomberg is you guy based specifically on economic issues. If your response is that your opinions were earnestly results-driven, then you should be singing the praises of the auto bailouts.
We've had at least one gifted economic conservative as a long time (and now sadly former) contributer who would regularly tear apart many of us on the left (when men were men and pro-conservative arguments were made formidably at this forum). Trust me, your economic arguments as you lay them out would not be received any better. And personally, I'm happy to admit my grasp of economics and the positions I take are much better honed as a result of the knocks I've taken and still take from people smarter than me.
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| | | 206 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 18:06
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Economic advisor to the John McCain Presidential Campaign and chief economist for Moody's Economy.com and Mark Zandi before the Senate Finance Committee on April 14, 2010. ...until businesses resume hiring in earnest and unemployment moves definitively lower, it is premature to conclude that a self-sustaining economic expansion is under way.
Indeed, hiring remains dormant. In the first quarter of this year, firms hired an average of nearly 4 million workers per month, down from nearly 5.5 million per month prior to the recession (see Chart 2).ii Without a pickup in hiring, underlying job growth will not accelerate, and unemployment is likely to resume drifting higher. U.S. payrolls need to grow by 125,000 jobs per month simply to stabilize unemployment, given the growth in the population and labor force. Even stronger job growth may be needed in coming months to keep unemployment from rising, since some of the millions of workers who stepped out of the labor force over the past two years will step back in as prospects improve.iii
There are good reasons to believe hiring will be slow to revive. A lack of credit appears to be shortcircuiting job growth, particularly for small and midsize firms that rely on credit cards and small banks for loans. Credit card companies and small banks remain under financial pressure and are pulling back. Lending standards have been tightened significantly, contributing to a sharp decline in the number of credit cards and commercial loans outstanding.iv Smaller businesses account for a surprisingly large share of the nation's job base, and if they are unable to obtain credit to expand, the job machine will not function properly.
It is unlikely that credit conditions for small businesses will improve soon. Hundreds of the small banks so important to small business lending, particularly in smaller communities, have failed or will fail in the next couple of years. Some 700 banks are now on the FDIC's troubled list; in many cases, defaulting commercial mortgage loans are overwhelming banks' capital. Credit card lenders are also adjusting to new regulations and have decided to take on less risk. Small business borrowers are also being hampered by the collapse in housing and commercial real estate prices. Real estate is often used by small business owners as collateral for borrowing. With the value of that collateral less certain, lenders are less willing to make loans.
Unusually weak business confidence may also be impeding hiring (see Chart 3). Many businesses suffered near-death experiences during the financial panic and Great Recession, and their managers are not convinced that conditions are strong enough yet to justify expansion. It will take more time than in past business cycles for those risk-taking spirits to return. While major changes to the healthcare system, financial institutions and markets, energy policy, and the tax code are essential, businesses may also be grappling with the uncertainty created by these policy initiatives.
Given the considerable risks remaining and prospects that unemployment will remain high for years, it is appropriate for policymakers to remain focused on further steps to support the job market. The recently passed job tax credit should prove helpful later this year.vii Additional financial aid to hard-pressed state governments facing large budget shortfalls would also mitigate some of the job cuts that have already begun to occur. Empowering the Small Business Administration to extend more support to small-business lending would help to jump-start hiring.
Extend unemployment insurance
It is also important that policymakers provide emergency benefits to those who will lose their jobs this year. No form of the fiscal stimulus has proved more effective during the past two years than emergency UI benefits, providing a bang for the buck of 1.61—that is, for every $1 in UI benefits, GDP one year later is increased by an estimated $1.61 (see Table 1).viii

This economic boost is large because financially stressed unemployed workers spend benefits quickly, as opposed to saving them. This was particularly important during the depths of the recession when consumers had aggressively cut spending. While consumer spending has since notably improved, it remains fragile and would likely weaken again if emergency UI benefits are not extended. The recovery would struggle to evolve into an expansion as anticipated.
Consumers’ dour moods reinforce this concern. While surveys of consumer confidence show improvement over the past year, they are not much higher today than in the depths of the past recent recessions. If large numbers of unemployed workers begin running out of UI benefits this spring and summer, consumer sentiment could sink further. Attitudes would sour not only among the unemployed but also among their relatives, friends and neighbors, as they worry more about their own situations.
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| | | 208 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 20:13
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They want to make sure the recipients actually get the voters to the booths before paying off.
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| | | 209 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Sun, Aug 15, 2010, 22:36
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Fooled By Stimulus
We firmly believe the Keynesian miracle is dead. The stimulus programs are simply not producing their desired results, and the future debt costs associated with funding these programs may cause far greater strife in the future than the problems the stimulus was originally designed to address.
A more timely epitaph for our Keynesian funeral comes from a recent op-ed piece by Jean-Claude Trichet, President of the European Central Bank, that was published in the Financial Times and entitled “Stimulate No More”. In it Trichet states that, “…the standard economic models used to project the impact of fiscal restraint or fiscal stimuli may no longer be reliable.”11 He explains that while debt in the euro zone has increased by more than 20 percent in only four years and by 35 to 40 percent over the same time period in the US and Japan, we have very little, if anything, to show for it. We agree. New housing sales are at all time lows, consumer intentions for auto purchases are at multi year lows, the University of Michigan consumer confidence index has turned negative, new jobless claims have started to increase, and the ECRI - a composite of leading indicators - is now forecasting a recession (see Chart C). Since Keynesian economics is no longer relevant, some are now arguing that tax cuts will save the day. Two of the academic studies we reviewed suggest that tax relief is a much stronger stimulus to the economy than government spending, and under normal circumstances this is probably true. But we are not in a normal economic environment. Even if the tax cuts implemented by George Bush in 2006 are extended by the next Congress, the US will still face the ‘Keynesian Endpoint’. A Government Accountability Office (GAO) report published in January 2010 states the following: “In our Alternative simulation, which assumes expiring tax provisions are extended through 2020 and revenue is held constant at the 40-year historical average; roughly 93 cents of every dollar of federal revenue will be spent on the major entitlement programs and net interest costs by 2020.”12 Extending tax cuts won’t solve anything.
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| | | 210 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sun, Aug 15, 2010, 22:59
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The stimulus programs are simply not producing their desired results
How can this be displayed if the funds haven't even been spent yet?
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| | | 211 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Sun, Aug 15, 2010, 23:03
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In truth, aren't tax cuts just another form of government spending? Just instead of the government collecting the monies and then spending them, they don;t collect as much? How exactly is that different from collecting and then writing checks?
ie, instead of collecting $100 and spending $25 on a stimulus, only collect $75 to begin with. Where is the difference?
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| | | 212 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 00:14
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Who are those clowns. The reason debt has increased is because we have been in a recession. Duh. Tax receipts are way down, so, you know, we are bringing in less revenue while spending more.
The answer isn't to cut taxes and bring in even less revenue than that.
Either disingenuous rich fcuks looking for to get or maintain tax cut for their buds, or simply dumber than a post. I'd go with the former, but you never know.
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| | | 213 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 00:24
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Oh, never mind. Goldbug hedge fund manager who's been losing his ass since the downturn.
Glorified accountant talking his book. Nothing to see here. Move along.
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| | | 214 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 13:31
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But gaps in your comprehension became clear when you insisted that auto and bank bailout money wold have been better spent as corporate welfare checks sent to businesses that aren't in trouble, and that this process would somehow improve employment numbers in the US.
What a condescending pos. I make financial models for a living that determine jobs, profit, expenses. You don't bailout failed institutions. Not every gazelle survives in the jungle.
I have no idea how you reconcile that record with your stated positions in this forum to arrive that Bloomberg is you guy based specifically on economic issues. If your response is that your opinions were earnestly results-driven, then you should be singing the praises of the auto bailouts.
I said that Bloomberg is the best guy that can create jobs who I think is probably running for President. I also said that its a one issue election for me, but you bring up other things even though I said I don't care about them in this context.
Thank God for you Building 7.
We firmly believe the Keynesian miracle is dead.
If the Keynesian multiplier is such a great thing why did Barack Obama stop at 800 billion?
In truth, aren't tax cuts just another form of government spending? Just instead of the government collecting the monies and then spending them, they don;t collect as much? How exactly is that different from collecting and then writing checks?
Because the private sector allocates funds more efficiently and on things that people want sarge33rd.
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| | | 215 | Coach Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 13:34
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instead of collecting $100 and spending $25 on a stimulus, only collect $75 to begin with. Where is the difference?
The difference is you can spend the extra $25 on anything you want, and not on what the stimulus Gods want. For me, I wouldn't give any of it to unions or Democratic states or anybody that Obama owes. You can also save the $25, or use it to reduce debt.
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| | | 216 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 13:36
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Because the private sector allocates funds more efficiently and on things that people want sarge33rd
Given that we are talking about the auto and banking fields, this supposition is dis-proven by the examples in question.
In general, you might be right. But the overall point here is that, in a recession, the government has a role to play and that role sometimes involves stepping in because it has the capital and efficiency that private firms to not.
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| | | 217 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 13:40
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Wait a minute Building 7. You wouldn't have spent money to figure out the mating decisions of cactus bugs?
There was a Syracuse study though that wanted to figure out the sex patterns of college women. Now that one I'd fund.
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| | | 218 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 13:44
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the government has a role to play and that role sometimes involves stepping in because it has the capital and efficiency that private firms to not.
As proven by the 13 trillion dollar debt and the underfunded liabilities of social security and medicare. No way Perm Dude you believe that government is more efficient than the private sector.
Government has the capital because Bernanke and Geithner have the printing presses working overtime diluting the dollar and the Chinese are all too eager to buy all those treasuries. I can just see the meeting on the day we default. The Chinese probably figure they'll take everything west of the Mississippi for now.
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| | | 219 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 13:48
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I think you need to re-read (this time a little more carefully) what I said.
Government has the capital because Bernanke and Geithner have the printing presses working overtime diluting the dollar
This is demonstratively false. Treasury is not printing more money, and the dollar is not falling. And take a guess (without looking it up) which country, besides the US, purchases the largest amount of T-bills?
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| | | 220 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 13:53
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This is demonstratively false. Treasury is not printing more money
Look at a chart of the money supply. More money supply information
The act of decreasing interest rates, which the federal reserve and treasury support increases the money supply. If dollars are not more plentiful then explain the boom in gold. Its uncertainly of the dollar.
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| | | 221 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 13:55
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You say you do financial analysis for a living?
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| | | 222 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 14:12
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Here comes an insult.
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| | | 223 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 14:21
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actually, i think you missed it.
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| | | 224 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 21:45
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Because the private sector allocates funds more efficiently and on things that people want sarge33rd.
False. As has been shown lately, the "private sector" does a grand job of rewarding CEOs with multi-million dollar bonuses, for running the company into the ground.
IOW, in the private sector, alllll those $25 tidbits are pooled, and paid to then kept by, those most directly responsible for the economic fiasco.
The Feds OTH, spent it to stave off job losses and spur some rehiring.
Please tell all those who have been hired off the unemployment rolls over the past year or so, how much better off they would be were they still unemployed and the multi-millionaires had their annual paycheck added to their bonuses.
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| | | 225 | Frick
ID: 347191721 Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 22:19
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So, a centrally planned economy is a better solution when it attempts to distribute the wealth equally to everyone?
I'm pretty sure that didn't work so well in the U.S.S.R., but I could be wrong.
Are there flaws with capitalism? Yes, but it is the most efficient system for utilizing capital.
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| | | 226 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 00:43
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Centrally planned economy? Where?
Capitalism is most efficient in maximizing short-term profits. It is not particularly efficient an more essential needs. Profits ain't all that.
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| | | 227 | Boldwin
ID: 11746189 Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 11:29
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What biliruben cannot process is that those 'short term profits' are how we keep score of who is best at satisfying the desires of the public. If you could master your inner envious greedy bastard, you libs could see that simple fact.
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| | | 228 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 11:51
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What biliruben cannot process is that those 'short term profits' are how we keep score of who is best at satisfying the desires of the public
So when private businesses do it this is a good thing, but when the government does it then it is a bad thing? Is that right?
If you aren't willing to do a deeper calculus on the costs of short-term profits than you have really removed yourself from being able to appropriately (or accurately, for that matter) criticize either private or public policy.
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| | | 229 | Boldwin
ID: 11746189 Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 12:45
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The government has no idea how badly they are missing the mark. The exact needs of the people entirely elude them. There is no efficient communication system there.
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| | | 230 | Frick
ID: 347191721 Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 13:48
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Short-term profits are one measure, but I agree are not a good measure. Although a company that constantly tries to maximize short-term profits will sooner or later crash and burn, read any book about Jack Welsh for examples. (If the book continues to track GE after he left and all of the messes he left behind come to light.)
I'm pretty sure I explicitly mentioned the U.S.S.R. in my post. Sarge alluded that we would be better off with more Federal control, I disagree.
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| | | 231 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 13:51
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Ah. I didn't realize you were responding to Sarge. That explains a ton! ;)
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| | | 232 | Frick
ID: 347191721 Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 14:25
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Ahh, I agree that it explains a lot. I should have included a RE: Post#.
I couldn't figure out what you were referring to.
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| | | 233 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 2073535 Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 04:16
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Didn't know where to post this, as good as any, I guess.
Hindenburg Omen
The Hindenburg Omen is a technical analysis pattern that is said to portend a stock market crash. It is named after the Hindenburg disaster of May 6, 1937, during which the German zeppelin Hindenburg was destroyed.
...
These criteria are calculated daily using Wall Street Journal figures for consistency. (Other exchanges may be used as well.)
1.The daily number of NYSE new 52 Week Highs and the daily number of new 52 Week Lows are both greater than 2.2 percent of total NYSE issues traded that day. Based on approximately 3100 NYSE issues, the 2.2% threshold is 69.
2.The NYSE 10 Week moving average is rising.
3.The McClellan Oscillator is negative on the same day.
4.New 52 Week Highs cannot be more than twice the new 52 Week Lows (though new 52 Week Lows may be more than double new Highs).
The traditional definition requires each condition to occur on the same day, and be repeated within a 36-day period. The occurrence of all criteria on a single day is often referred to as an unconfirmed Hindenburg Omen, because the indicator has a high false alarm rate.
...
Recent occurrences
August 20, 2010: The second confirmed Hindenburg Omen in August, 2010 with 3,143 NYSE issues traded, with 83 New Highs and 95 New Lows. The McClellan Oscillator was negative.
August 19, 2010: An unconfirmed Hindenburg Omen with 137 new highs and 69 new lows were recorded (2.2% of issues traded), and the new highs number was not more than double the new lows (although it was close). McClellan oscillator was negative at -83.6, and the 10 week moving average rose, which were the two remaining conditions.
August 12, 2010: A confirmed Hindenburg Omen occurred, the first since the market lows of 2009. One nearly occurred on August 11, but only 67 stocks hit new lows, less than 2.2% of issues traded.
...
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| | | 234 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 09:57
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The exact needs of the people entirely elude them.
In so far as peace and prosperity eludes North Korea. Somehow I do not think those are goals.
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| | | 235 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 13:04
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Short-term profits are one measure, but I agree are not a good measure. Although a company that constantly tries to maximize short-term profits will sooner or later crash and burn
This was interesting. One way companies sacrifice long term for short term is employee retention. When a star employee asks for a raise because they have taken on more work a company tells him no. So the employee walks over a reasonable amount of money. (I have done this a couple of times and each time the employer got burned. The latest one "replaced" me with 1 FTE, 2 part time temps and gave the important stuff to my boss.) The company spends money on a head hunter, time interviewing and lost productivty but no worries because they followed the policy and the policy is always right.
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| | | 236 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Sep 01, 2010, 16:26
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Question of the day, so do richer people support more American jobs because they buy more luxury goods often made in the USA vs poorer people who buy mostly cheep items produced over seas?
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| | | 237 | Mith
ID: 2672547 Wed, Sep 01, 2010, 16:37
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In general they consume more. So yes, per person they support more American jobs. Unfortunately the consumption benefit of increasing percentages of middle-class earners advancing to the upper wage classes over the past few decades is more than offset by the much greater percentage of middle-class earners falling into lower wage classes.
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| | | 238 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Sep 01, 2010, 18:24
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"Cheap items produced overseas" are almost all stuff owned by US manufacturing companies, who made the decision to make things overseas for financial ones. It all comes back here, though.
Poor people, by and large, spend a huge percentage of their income on immediate consumables: Food, rent, gas, utilities.
Does a rich person who buys a jet from an overseas company, drives and Audi, and spends more on gas in one month than a poor person spends in five years helping American jobs? I dunno. Seems to me we're looking at it the wrong way.
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| | | 240 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 17:11
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Okay. I'll take Tyler durdens word for it that deficit spending had no impact in our growth in GDP, contrary to all Econ I've ever read.
Not because he supplies any evidence or reasoning ( he doesn't) not to mention economics, but because he is Tyler burden, and he'll beat me up if I disagree.
Thanks, but I'll side with the economist with the evidence on his side on this one, not the moron brawler with a lack of manners and respect for his betters.
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| | | 241 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 17:37
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you may laugh bili but you might want to do a comparison between post war US and the current china economy both being fattened by former superpowers growing ever more in debt to new super powers the UK to the US and now the US to china.
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| | | 242 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 18:32
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China has no problem investing trillions in alternative energy and transit infrastructure in order to put the pieces in place for economic growth. We should be doing the same thing, but we aren't.
They are also artificially suppressing their currency, which results in a massive tariff on imports.
Those things, along with other government support and endless cheap labor are why their ecomomy is running hot. Some would suggest too hot.
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| | | 243 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 11:52
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China has no problem investing trillions in alternative energy and transit infrastructure in order to put the pieces in place for economic growth. We should be doing the same thing, but we aren't.
I think that is more an issue of ability than desire. They can afford to reinvest in there country. It is kind of like asking why can't the family with large credit card debt and huge mortgage payments seem to invest in a new roof for their house while the family that saved there money and lived with in their means can.
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| | | 244 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 12:23
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We would have the money, if we hadn't cut our tax-base to the bone and give it to the one set of people who largely don't need it and won't spend it: the rich.
On top of that, we opened our vaults to thos same folks and let them steal trillions more, and now we are paying back what w stole instead of helping the economy and the unemployed.
And we are about to vote those same folks back into power and beg the f us up the butt again. We are so stupid, we deserve to be reamed.
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| | | 245 | Boldwin
ID: 1981396 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 12:44
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and give it to the one set of people who largely don't need it and won't spend it
You are speaking of the next stimulus bill?
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| | | 246 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 12:49
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I agree that the latest tax breaks won't do much. The pittance tossed towards transit will eagerly be spent, however. Multiply it by 10 or 20 and we would see a meangful impact.
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| | | 247 | Boldwin
ID: 1981396 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 12:50
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For once we are in complete agreement, bili! We haven't spent down the original funds, why do we need another porkfest?
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| | | 248 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 12:53
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Your pork is someone elses desperately needed job.
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| | | 249 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 13:00
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And how long does that job last biliruben. What is bad about creating permanent private sector jobs compared to summer long construction temp jobs?
We would have the money, if we hadn't cut our tax-base to the bone and give it to the one set of people who largely don't need it and won't spend it: the rich.
When it costs three cents for someone in India and 3 dollars for someone from Detroit do you think personal tax rates matter? Like it or not but the Obama Administration has to up the ante on what liberals like to call corporate welfare.
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| | | 250 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 13:05
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Personal tax rates matter when they are cut and take you from running a surplus to a deficit. Then you have no cash to invest in public works essential to keeping your country competitive.
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| | | 251 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 15:23
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We would have the money, if we hadn't cut our tax-base to the bone and give it to the one set of people who largely don't need it and won't spend it: the rich.
I am not going to say we should not tax the rich more because we should, but saying that lowering that Tax rate and W are why we are in this situation is like saying climate change would not of existed if BP would never had existed. We don't have the money, we don't have the money because all of ours is leaving for other countries.
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| | | 252 | Perm Dude on LBI
ID: 8824914 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 15:26
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Depends on what you mean by "this situation." If you are talking about the deficit then absolutely the tax cuts are the reason we are in "this situation." In fact, the lack of revenue from those tax cuts is one of the largest component of our current deficit.
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| | | 253 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 15:34
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this situation was referring to total debt, Honestly how much would taxes have to go up to keep up with Chinese subsidies? Just to keep there currency stable they have to spend a billion dollars a day.
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| | | 254 | Perm Dude on LBI
ID: 8824914 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 15:46
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One of the problems behind finding solutions is believing we have to keep up with Chinese subsidies (which is a bit of an oxymoron. Those aren't subsidies so much as "the Chinese government owns virtually all businesses in China") There are lots of jobs we do well at here in the United States--thinking that we have to do all jobs here in the US is 1970's thinking.
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| | | 255 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 15:47
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What is bad about creating permanent private sector jobs compared to summer long construction temp jobs?
All construction jobs are "temp jobs" by your definition. Who works on a construction site for 40 years?
You will have to do better than that.
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| | | 256 | Perm Dude on LBI
ID: 8824914 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 15:49
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This temp jobs that built our interstate highway system are pretty good ones, I think.
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| | | 257 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 16:38
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"the Chinese government owns virtually all businesses in China"
citation?
thinking that we have to do all jobs here in the US is 1970's thinking.
agreed, but i fear the number goes down each year.
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| | | 258 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 22:42
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citation?
Seriously? China is a communist country. They own literally everything.
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| | | 259 | J-Bar
ID: 32852922 Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 23:54
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The tax rates is what sent the surplus to deficits (face/palm). 9/11, the 2 wars, Clinton's recession, the new entitlement program of Medicare part D had nothing to do with it. Arguing that 300 to 500 billion dollar deficits are bad and 1.5 trillion dollar deficits are good and should be 2 trillion. Kinda funny.
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| | | 260 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 00:06
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I'm sorry--who said "nothing to do with it" besides your strawman?
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| | | 261 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 00:08
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For those who like it in chart form:
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| | | 262 | J-Bar
ID: 32852922 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 00:27
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Laughable chart and premise. Again all projections from an organization known to go back and adjust. Saying that Bush and his policies are responsible for 1.2 trillion of the 2009 deficit is laughable. Let's see Obama fully supported Tarp, did nothing to change Bush's plan on the wars, and increased stimulus spending. But I know its all Bush's fault. Kind of funny that CBO projects the effects on the deficits are bigger after the tax cuts expire, Hmmm. One other thing why would the CBO even put this projection together and have they ever attempted this before. I have seen the strategy and it is obvious. We inherited something not too good, we started our fix, it didn't work so that can only mean one thing, we underestimated how bad it really was so we lower the baseline and that makes are inept policies look better.
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| | | 263 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 00:31
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Virtually each one of those statements are demonstratively false or out of context. Bush and the GOP pushed through massive tax cuts at the same time they increased discretionary spending and had to pay for two large wars. As you noted above, the wars cost money. Now are you backing away from that assertion?
I know the math doesn't look good for Bush, but it never really did.
Choke off revenue and increase spending across the board, and you are going to see a lot of red at the end of your term. I realize you are much more interested in assaulting Obama with half (or no) truths. But the numbers don't lie.
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| | | 264 | J-Bar
ID: 32852922 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 01:24
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You do mean the projected numbers based on the 'reckoning' of a fairly biased group. I did not assault Obama at all. A little projection on your part.
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| | | 265 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 01:38
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Now the CBO is a "biased group"? That's even more troll than your usual, JBar.
Obviously the tax cuts don't expire on that chart. You could call that growing blue portion the "Boehner Plan".
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| | | 266 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 02:04
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did nothing to change Bush's plan on the wars,
well, other than completely change them, you mean, right?
btw, drawing a close to the combat mission in Iraq is another Obama promise fulfilled.
while many on the right in this country continue to lie for purely political gains, Obama is doing the job he was elected to do.
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| | | 267 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 02:18
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The CBO is biased when it doesn't follow the GOP talking point, Zen. Didn't you get that memo?
Obviously the tax cuts don't expire on that chart.
Ironically, this is the one part where the CBO is clearly biased toward the GOP plan: To continue the Bush tax cuts without changes or end. This is the GOP plan. The complaint seems to be: "This makes my plan look bad!"
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| | | 268 | J-Bar
ID: 27858106 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 08:07
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Did you read the article? It is the authors assessment and interpretation of CBO data. The draw down of the combat mission was the exact plan of Bush. Another irony is that some on the left side continue to scream about the cost of the tax cuts as if there was no gain to the populace but then somehow tout the spending of trillions in stimulus and the new health reform as money saved (until of course they revise the numbers). After the tax cuts, revenues went up and jobs were created (probably saved too but they didn't use unprovable stats then to make policies look better).
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| | | 269 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 09:23
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Re #261: They are projecting an econmic downturn that is going to last from 2009 until 2019. And it will increase the defecit about $500 Billion each year. That's not an economic downturn, that is the great depression. 10 years....good grief.
And they are projecting deficits of about one trillion per year from 2009 to 2019. That's a disaster. That's their plan....seriously. The federal government cannot balance their books for the next 10 years. Why don't they quit spending so much.
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| | | 270 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 09:31
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B7 Increasing deficit is not a depression. If it were we would be saying we were in a depression from the Reagan admin into Clintons first term.
J Bar What makes you so sure that increasing revenues were the result of tax cus for the wealthy. Since you differentiate between your point and what is not "provable" I assume you are prepared to show hard evdence of the cause and effect you claim?
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| | | 271 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 10:33
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citation?
Seriously? China is a communist country. They own literally everything.
um no they are not, look up communism and see how many factors it has with china and outside of one party rule and name. If you are still so sure of yourself explain this?
The private sector accounts for 70% of the Chinese gross domestic product.
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| | | 273 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 11:11
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Thanks for the link. I promise to look that over more carefully when I dig out (just back from a short vacation). But the argument being made is very similar to the one China was making in their copyright disputes for ten years: Claiming the CDs & DVDs were being made by private companies, but China would own (literally) the buildings in which they were manufactured and they would be majority stockholder in the private companies in question.
I really don't know whether a company can be considered "private" when it was started and majority-owned by the government. But it sounds like they are playing the same semantic game.
In general, I have no problem with China taking certain jobs. The world marketplace works because some jobs naturally gravitate to certain areas while other jobs go elsewhere.
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| | | 274 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 13:06
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261 is also indicating spending from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Eeeee-gads, I thought all the combat troops left Iraq. We will be in both places in 10 years? I suppose so because we are still in Germany and Japan just in case Hilter and the Emperor return.
In general, I have no problem with China taking certain jobs. The world marketplace works because some jobs naturally gravitate to certain areas while other jobs go elsewhere.
We have a situation Perm Dude where a good thing, world trade, has gone too far. Yes certain low margin or low value add jobs should go to China. Business is not stopping there. IT, finance, complex manufacturing like capital equipment is all over in China and India too. Government did not adequately create the rules by which business can go overseas. Further, they continue to strengthen the problem by taxing foreign made profits. Those monies should be transferred over here tax free provided they are reinvested in America.
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| | | 275 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 13:59
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Increasing deficit is not a depression.
This is correct. Now you just need to find someone that is making that claim.
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| | | 276 | J-Bar
ID: 258521022 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 23:52
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Mith, I believe the tax cuts were across the board but you go ahead and stick to the party line and the talking points.
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| | | 277 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 04:05
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Your stimulus dollars at work, teaching Africans to wash their penis.
You really can't make this stuff up.
Let's try. Imagine a crazier use of stimulus money.
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| | | 278 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 04:09
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Let's write up a proposal to teach Africans how to wash their @ss. How can Obama refuse?
'Now, give me my $800,000'.
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| | | 279 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 09:49
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CNSNews.com "The Right News. Right Now."
Perfect slogan for this "news" organization.
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| | | 280 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 10:36
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Are you denying the story?
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| | | 281 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 11:28
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Right. Because dark skinned people dying of AIDS is not worthy of our attention or our research dollars.
You disgust me.
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| | | 282 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 11:30
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It's all a big joke - long, slow, painful death.
Hah Hah! Funny shiznet! Saving people from a terminal disease!
What a waste of money. We can't spend it on 1/100,000th of a bomber so we can blow them up instead. Darn.
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| | | 283 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 11:40
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Its interesting that the Conservative News Service is against a program that is trying to save human beings. Very Christian of them.
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| | | 284 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 11:41
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Because washing penises is not the solution. Avoiding prostitution, drugs and the back door are the solution. Nor is lobbying a culture to be more gay friendly a solution btw.
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| | | 285 | Tosh Leader
ID: 057721710 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 12:04
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I'm having a hard time finding the word 'gay', 'homosexual', 'queer', or other similar word in that article. Can you please point that out to me.
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| | | 286 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 12:15
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Avoiding prostitution, drugs and the back door are the solution. Dang, it's great that someone has finally solved the AIDS problem.
My solutions: Avoid all premarital sex. Always use condoms. Never have sex with prostitutes. Only have sex with a married partner for purposes of procreation. Outlaw homosexual activities. Actually, complete sexual abstinence should do the trick. Do not ever inject drugs. While you're at it, invent a vaccine that will prevent AIDS.
NEWSFLASH: All bad things should not happen, but they will anyway. I would think that we need to deal with what is, not make unrealistic pronouncements as if there was a simple solution just waiting implementation.
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| | | 287 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 12:28
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Right. Because dark skinned people dying of AIDS is not worthy of our attention or our research dollars.
And we should be funding this study because.....
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| | | 289 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 12:45
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Post 288 is the typical liberal response to opposing anything. If the program is for minorities in other countries, just call the guy a bigot.
The stop beating your wife school of argument again.
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| | | 290 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 12:59
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Hey. I'm not the one who put "African" in the link.
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| | | 291 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 13:05
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Do you think that it relates to the group of people being studied at all?
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| | | 292 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 13:26
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Do you often speak in circuitious sentences?
There are many interesting issues to discuss with this sort of research. If I felt it was anything but a waste of my time to do so, I would make some attempt to educate you. It appears your mind has already been made up, however, so I won't needlessly bore you with ways their may be to save large amounts of money and suffering through behavior change efforts.
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| | | 293 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 16:16
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Newsflash: If carefully detailing 'Willie' were actually efficacious, SF bath-houses would be the safest places in America, not the most dangerous in this regard.
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| | | 294 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 16:41
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Newsflash: they closed the bathhouses 25 years ago.
At least you aren't still stuck in the 60s!
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| | | 295 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 16:46
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That's not what Wiki says.
I can't believe I have to prove this.
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| | | 296 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 17:10
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wikipedia: where people go for factual information....
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| | | 297 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 17:20
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Don't hold your breath waiting for a first hand report on that subject from me. Kinda appreciative that bili was in the dark on that subject...err, was uninformed on that subject.
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| | | 298 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 18:46
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I can't believe I have to prove this.
i can't believe that in well under 24 hours you've condoned sexual harassment and basically blamed the female victim for it, and scoffed at helping those less educated than you understand how washing themselves more effectively can help save their lives.
actually, i can believe it. never mind.
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| | | 299 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 18:57
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The bathhouses in sf were closed by the department of public health in 1984.
As of the late 90s - the last time I did any HIV work, they were still closed. I didn't see anything in the link that led me believe new houses had reopened in the last decade, but I'm at work and can't read the whole thing.
Please post some snips to let know if I'm wrong.
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| | | 300 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 19:30
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Google also turned up massive current links. I guess we can c-n-p wiki without fear of a lawsuit?
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| | | 301 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 19:58
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A quick google leads me to believe they are still closed. At least as of 2008.
What this has to do with research to lower transmission rates in Africa is a bit baffling however.
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| | | 302 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 20:41
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bili
You've got scientific chops. Are you really telling me you feel washing penises is even remotely a factor in the same class as avoiding prostitution, drugs and the back door?
HIV is transmitted thru blood, so the way a male would pick up the virus thru his penis is if he had a cut or sore of some kind. If he does, cleaning after the fact isn't a reliable solution.
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| | | 303 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 20:51
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From the wiki site...Chicago, Los Angeles, Seattle, and Atlanta still have several gay bathhouses operating today. Many other major U.S cities have at least one operating bathhouse. Indianapolis has two[62].
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| | | 304 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 20:57
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And take another look at these google results of just San Francisco bath houses sorted for this year only.
For the record it came into this thread via my #293 and bili's #294. Turning an aside into an issue. Not a big deal. I just never concede a point I am right on.
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| | | 305 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 20:58
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If carefully detailing 'Willie' were actually efficacious, SF bath-houses would be the safest places in America, not the most dangerous in this regard.
I think I see the disconnect here.
The abreviation, "SF" doesn't stand for Chicago, Los Angeles, Seattle, Atlanta or Indianapolis.
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| | | 306 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 21:02
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From the 2nd link in Boldwin's Google search:The popular Steamworks Berkeley (2107 4th St., 510-845-8992) is one of two gay bathhouses in the San Francisco Bay Area, the other being the Watergarden in the South Bay city of San Jose.
Part of what accounts for the popularity of Steamworks as well as Watergarden in San Jose is that San Francisco has no gay bathhouses, although it does have a few long-running gay sex clubs. A 1984 San Francisco court order ruled that sex venues could not rent private rooms and had to monitor sexual activity, which effectively eliminated bathhouses.
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| | | 307 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 21:21
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For the record:Several RCT studies have shown that male circumcision lowers risk of HIV infection, and this may be due to better genital hygiene.
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| | | 308 | Boldwin
ID: 4289140 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 21:28
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I've already polluted my history quite enuff. That is just an awful lot of current hits for an outlawed industry. All those listed bath houses aint, huh?
Methinks it's just as outlawed as the local 'wink wink' massage parlor, where 'wink wink' prostitution is off limits of course. But whatever. Maybe Tree can ask all his gay friends and actually make himself useful.
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| | | 309 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 21:30
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I guess we can c-n-p wiki without fear of a lawsuit?
less than 2 hour after the above statement, you c-and-p'd 10 paragraphs (375 words) from another site. granted, you did make the editorial comment "surely not part of Obama's Net Trap," which in itself is moronic, but also leads me to believe that now, when people ask for a source, you're going to default to "i'm afraid to get sued."
the new thing is like candy for you.
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| | | 310 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 21:52
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an awful lot of current hits for an outlawed industry
I don't know nearly enough about bath house culture (for lack of a more apropriate phrase) to speak from any authority but I don't think prostitution is usually the point. More of an 'anything goes' type of meeting place for willing participants is my impression.
But back to the original and more relevent point, research shows there's a connection. You might argue about whether things like HIV prevention studies should receive Recovery Act funds, but your and CNS' attack of the science behind the study, itself is just ignorant obstructionist demagoguery.
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| | | 311 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Sep 14, 2010, 22:53
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Like all interventions, you have to look at a number of factors, including costs, benefits and whether it's a modifiable behavior.
In this circumstance, costs are the price of soap, benefits are massive both on the avoidance of a lifetime of expensive drugs as well as in terms of human suffering and further transmission to other partners as well as their unborn children.
As for whether you can modify behavior - washing your dick would probably be a lot more likely than giving up sex.
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| | | 312 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 13:13
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I do not know what is worse. The government spending that money to teach Africans to wash their genitals or people here thinking that is a good use of American money.
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| | | 313 | Mith
ID: 4982142 Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 13:36
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Ignorance is strength:
government spending that money to teach Africans to wash their genitals
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| | | 314 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 13:42
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You clearly have no idea how many billions we spend fighting AIDS in Africa. Anybody with a stitch of finacial sense would realize this is money very well spent.
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| | | 315 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 14:00
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I am aware of Bush's initiative to spend billions of borrowed money in Africa. Perhaps it is this 800k that will put that continent over the hump.
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| | | 316 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 14:31
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Careful. Your humanity is showing.
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| | | 317 | Boldwin
ID: 57852158 Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 17:18
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If it's money well spent let China fund it. It is after all China's money we are throwing out the window.
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| | | 318 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 12:54
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The title of this thread is so appropriate to the Democrats response to the job problem. Next Up. OK, now we will really tackle the largest problem facing the country. I am sure the unemployed do not mind waiting a bit longer.
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| | | 320 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 14:06
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Hah. Anyone who thinks the United States ever had a labor market which fits Mr. Mullen's utopia should really get out of their office more often.
Meanwhile, the CBO, CEA, and a number of private analysts all agree that the stimulus had positive benefits to the unemployment numbers. Conservative and Democratic economic analysts almost uniformly agree with this conclusion.
Of course, the natural next questions arise: "Has it been worth it?" and "Has it been enough?" But we simply cannot deny that the stimulus monies has had a positive benefit to the economy at the very time it needs those stimulative benefits.
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| | | 321 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 14:21
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"Has it been worth it?" that is only question worth asking. But we simply cannot deny that the stimulus monies has had a positive benefit to the economy at the very time it needs those stimulative benefits. this meaningless. If i give you $10 to get lunch today in exchange for $100 tomorrow well yes you are better off today you got lunch but are you better off?
good link B7 while I agree with PD in general that his Utopia does not exist, he is correct in pointing out that in general the government just creates inefficiencies in the system.
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| | | 322 | Mith
ID: 4982142 Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 14:42
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One of these days the right is going to have to decide whether they care more about debt or the current state of the economy.
Personally, I tend to think that if large banks had been allowd to fail and we moved instead to deficit reduction measures rather than stimulus ones, allowing credit markets to sseize up, unraveling GDP to the point that it could still be shrinking from 2008 levels and unemployment were 50% higher than today, the public wouldn't find much solice in having narrowed budget deficits from Bush levels.
The most important thing is that the economy keeps growing. The current and projected deficit is not a short term problem. The current state of the economy is.
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| | | 323 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 14:51
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no surprise here cash for clunkers was just another goverment waste of money.
I tend to think that if large banks had been allowd to fail and we moved instead to deficit reduction measures rather than stimulus ones, allowing credit markets to sseize up
well that assumes they would have failed and that assumes that the credit markets have not seized up anyway.
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| | | 324 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 15:12
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Lehman? WAMU?
As far as I can tell, credit markets are not seized up.
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| | | 325 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 16:10
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Lehman? WAMU? I guess i should have stated more would have failed.
As far as I can tell, credit markets are not seized up. maybe but i know a banker and he has barely given out any loans in year. Partly due to to demand, partly due to bank being more conservative now, and partly due to new government regulations.
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| | | 326 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 16:44
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Those new government regulations probably also include the fact that nearly all new loans for housing are guaranteed by the government.
Some things the government is doing will miss the mark (sometimes badly). But cash for clunkers was a wildly popular program and that needs to be said in any analysis.
One of the best part of the stimulus program was the tax breaks everyone gets in each and every paycheck. Yet no one seems to even notice--in fact, some even deny that their taxes are lower under Obama (which, ironically, leads to people being against "the government" and Obama in particular).
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| | | 327 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Sun, Sep 19, 2010, 18:07
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326-Maybe this article will help your confusion as to why the people are against the government and as you put it Obama in particular. Add this to the 800 thousand that went to the cleaning of genitals in africa it becomes pretty clear. This story is from the International Business Times
The Los Angeles City Controller said on Thursday the city's use of its share of the $800 billion federal stimulus fund has been disappointing.
The city received $111 million in stimulus under American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) approved by the Congress more than year ago.
"I'm disappointed that we've only created or retained 55 jobs after receiving $111 million," says Wendy Greuel, the city's controller, while releasing an audit report.
"With our local unemployment rate over 12% we need to do a better job cutting red tape and putting Angelenos back to work,” she added.
According to the report, the Los Angeles Department of Public Works generated only 45.46 jobs (the fraction of a job created or retained correlates to the number of actual hours of work) after receiving $70.65 million, while the target was 238 jobs.
Similarly, the city’s department of transportation, armed with a $40.8 million fund, created only 9 jobs in place of an expected 26 jobs.
The audit says the numbers were disappointing due to bureaucratic red tape, absence of competitive bidding for projects in private sectors, inappropriate tracking of stimulus money and a laxity in bringing out timely job reports.
“While it doesn’t appear that any of the ARRA funds were misspent, the City needs to do a better job expediting the process and creating jobs,” she said.
320-I guess these are the positive benefits that you linked to. I dont think it has been enough. 111 million dollars to create 56 jobs, I would like to see congress pass another stimulus worth 40 trillion. Take that divided by 2 million a job and you get 20 million jobs. That should bring down the unemployment rate. Of course I am joking with sarcasm.
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| | | 328 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Sep 19, 2010, 18:30
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I read about that Los Angeles thing, which the rightwing blogosphere was all over. Here's the problem (as usual with many on the right): Lots of light and heat and not so much in the way of context..
You'll note that the original articles talk a lot about how much money LA received. Then they talk about how many jobs were created as a result. The disconnect is that they skim over what was spent by LA from that money.
Even when the Right might be able to make a good point (such as "why hasn't LA spent much of their money?") they get it wrong. LA got a bunch of money from the government. And they've only created a few jobs because of internal red tape to spend the money. That is the story that the Right missed.
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| | | 329 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 13:37
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That does not make the situation better for the unemployed Perm Dude.
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| | | 330 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 13:41
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You're right. That wasn't the criticism NG was making, however.
One of the biggest drawbacks of the stimulus funding is that it is filtered through state & local governments and their pace sometimes isn't quick. But how else could have really been done?
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| | | 331 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 13:53
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One of the biggest drawbacks of the stimulus funding is that it is filtered through state & local governments and their pace sometimes isn't quick. But how else could have really been done?
Tax cuts and incentives that go straight to the people or corporations. The Democrat talking point in counter to what I said is then that the stimulus was one third tax cuts. It should have been one hundred percent or ninety percent with some infrastructure thrown in. The reason cash for clunkers and the home tax credit have been so popular is that it is a free market solution that people like.
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| | | 332 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 13:55
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Federal funding to save police, firefighters and teachers is also a good idea but I believe there are less middlemen in that process in that it goes from the fed to the state coffers and is used then to fulfill payroll obligations. I do not believe there is a third party to the process.
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| | | 333 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 14:22
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As you point out, about a third of the stimulus bill was direct tax cuts to individuals. Virtually anyone making under $250K saw a federal tax cut on each and every paycheck.
What we saw on the previous 2 stimulus bills is that sending checks out to people didn't result in very much actual stimulus (or, at least, anything long-term). Many people used it to pay bills. Some of the smarter ones used it to pay down credit card debt. None of that actually creates jobs.
One thing that the stimulus funding is doing, however, is helping states to balance their budgets. And that helps keep other cuts from occurring elsewhere. Many states are struggling to keep job banks and libraries open, for example.
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| | | 334 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 16:01
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What we saw on the previous 2 stimulus bills is that sending checks out to people didn't result in very much actual stimulus (or, at least, anything long-term). Many people used it to pay bills. Some of the smarter ones used it to pay down credit card debt. None of that actually creates jobs.
This is true. Stimulus checks to individuals really do nothing and cost the government administratively because somebody has to cut those checks and mail them. Just cut payroll tax rates. Obama did a town hall today that I taped at home but I did hear he mentioned a payroll tax holiday. Obama would be wise to look at the larger picture of addressing employee costs here versus overseas. Meaning that he can cut employee costs by lowering tax rates to make American wages less of an incentive to go overseas.
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| | | 335 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 17:33
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Good points. I think there are some limits to how one can make economic progress through tax policy manipulation, but I think there are some things you can still do.
I also think that tax policy changes can get more Republicans on board. Obama has made the case that short-term budget shortfalls are fine during this recession (in other words, the government needs to take on debt to keep things from getting worse). That is also the case with the revenue shortfalls that cutting taxes will present us with.
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| | | 336 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 13:23
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Allen Sinai of Decision Economics Inc. has an editorial today. Look for his study called Capital Gains Taxes and the Economy. It will be published this week.
It discusses just how poisonous capital gains taxes are to jobs. A 28% rate taxes away .1% of growth and 600,000 jobs. A 5% rate would increase gross domestic product by .2% and add 711,000 jobs per year. A 0% rate has the same impact on gross domestic product as the 5% rate but would have created 1.3 million jobs per year.
The net impact of eliminating capital gains taxes results in an annual $23 billion in less treasury revenue after factoring in the impact of net economic activity. (Some tax receipts go up because of increased activity while the capital gains rate of course is 0%.) It only costs $18,000 per worker to implement this which is far cheaper than any other estimate calculated using the stimulus package and the jobs it has created. Obama should really do this.
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| | | 337 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 14:00
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I've seen almost the exact opposite. Remember that capital gains taxes are charged at different rates (the highest rate is 28%, but individuals are often charged lower rates and lower rates still for the bottom two tax brackets (5%, I believe)).
Also, any long-term holds (greater than one year) reduces the tax burden substantially. As does standard sales techniques like tax loss harvesting and installment sales.
I'll look for the article but if it like many others I've seen it assumes (like the "death tax") a worst-case scenario exists for everyone always. I've yet to see anything in which stock sales churning (for example) creates jobs. Well, perhaps at the brokerage house...
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| | | 338 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 14:01
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If the article ends up online, please link to it. I really would be interested in reading it.
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| | | 339 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 10:24
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I certainly will Perm Dude. A bigger point at play here is that often times politicians promote the mass of the tax cuts, but in fact targeted smaller tax cuts can have a great impact.
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| | | 340 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 13:25
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I've yet to see anything in which stock sales churning (for example) creates jobs. Well, perhaps at the brokerage house...
Capital gains are far more complex than somebody buying and selling stocks as some kind of a day trader. Understanding Capital Gains Taxes The new rules here do not permit me to quote so I will summarize some of the things it says. Capital gains taxes slow down the velocity of money. This impacts start up businesses and others seeking venture capital type loans because those gains are locked up on paper for fear of taxation instead of selling the profitable asset and investing in a new one. Eliminating capital gains taxes will free up massive amounts of credit for new businesses.
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| | | 341 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 13:57
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Larry Summers resigned Perm Dude. Obama has a chance to put a businessman in there. Let us see what he does.
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| | | 342 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 14:01
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My favorite is the $3000 limit on capital losses. If you have a $100,000 capital gain, you pay the tax on all of it. If you have a $100,000 capital loss, you can only use $3000 of the loss per year to reduce your taxes. I don't know the reasoning behind that, but it doesn't seem fair.
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| | | 343 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 15:50
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Jesus. Same old crap.
We want to promote long-term investing, not short-term.
People going for quick profit at the expense of long-term viability of companies is what got us into this mess in the first place.
Speed-money benefits financial scum, fast-buck scammers capitalizing on opacity, to the detriment of stable society.
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| | | 344 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 16:09
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Speed-money benefits financial scum, fast-buck scammers capitalizing on opacity, to the detriment of stable society. this idea is complete opposition to this law If you have a $100,000 capital gain, you pay the tax on all of it. If you have a $100,000 capital loss, you can only use $3000 of the loss per year to reduce your taxes. since it only pushes those who get scammed.
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| | | 345 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 16:46
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We want to promote long-term investing, not short-term.
Absolutely. That's why I have no problem with keeping capital gains taxes as they are. Using tax policy to encourage good financial behavior is a play from the GOP playbook.
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| | | 346 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 16:57
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I was actually talking about the velocity comment.
To your point - I'm not sure why we should be subsiding poor capital investments. There are a number of ways you can choose to organize small businesses that protect your income from failed investments.
If you simply pick bad stocks, I don't see why you should get a bailout.
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| | | 347 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 19:35
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I do. And I wouldn't call it a bailout.
And there are other reasons to have a capital loss than simply picking bad stocks.
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| | | 348 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 20:20
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Yeah, those "superstars" can snooker you 6 ways to friday if you are susceptible; junk bonds, real estate, pork bellies.
I would still call it a bailout, and I can't see why the taxpayer should pay for me playing fast and loose with my capital.
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| | | 349 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 21:23
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2008 $100,000 capital loss 2009 $100,000 capital gain
2008 $100,000 capital gain 2009 $100,000 capital loss
The two tax situations above look similar, but the tax treatment is hugely different.
In the first one you can take $3000 of the loss and have a tax loss carryforward of $97,000. This can be used to offset the capital gains in 2009, and you end up paying tax on only $3000. So, for the two years it comes to zero...-3000 + 3000.
In the second one you pay tax on $100,000 in the first year, and the second year you can take $3000 of the loss. So, for the two years you pay tax on $97,000. 100,000 - 3000. It's just not fair. But, there are a lot of things unfair about the tax code, which is why they should get rid of it.
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| | | 350 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 21:34
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Nothing is stopping you from carrying forward to 2010.
I'm philosophically opposed to allowing any carry forward. Owners of capital shouldn't be where we should be focusing our largess.
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| | | 351 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 22:23
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B7, that's going to be a problem in ANY accounting system when you set up arbitrary time periods -- which we pretty much have to do, because we can't possibly say that we're going to wait until the end and settle up then, because for corporations and individuals, there is no defined "the end".
if I make $20,000 in year 1, $110,000 in year 2, and $20,000 in year 3, is it "fair" that I get taxed on the higher marginal rate for year 2? I mean, I only averaged $50,000 per year, right?
I'm not necessarily for or against allowing particular loss "carry forwards" -- I honestly haven't given it enough thought to have an opinion -- but it seems that no matter WHAT option you choose, you're literally always going to have a problem because of the arbitrary nature of setting January 1 - December 31 (or whatever 12 month period you select) as an accounting period.
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| | | 352 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 23:47
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The higher marginal rate is also unfair, and unconstitutional. This capital gains tax is on money that was already taxed once when you earned it. You're just shuffling it around amongst assets.
Do you think the capital gains tax causes more investment or less investment? If the capital gains went away, would there be more investment or less investment?
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| | | 353 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 00:07
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What, exactly, is the argument that the rate is unconstitutional?
Higher capital gains taxes on short-term capital gains encourages long term capital holds. And that is good for businesses.
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| | | 354 | biliruben
ID: 34820210 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 01:41
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No, it wasn't taxed, not that there is anything wrong with taxing things twice, or a dozen times, if appropriate.
The principle was taxed, not the profit. Now, the profit it taxed, not the principle.
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| | | 355 | Agent Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 09:37
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The federal government shouldn't be picking and choosing winners and losers. Although, they do it all the time now. They shouldn't treat one group of people (high wage earners)differently than other groups of people.
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| | | 356 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 09:42
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They do that anyway, B7. I'd rather that they backed long-term investment over short term.
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| | | 357 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 09:49
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"They shouldn't treat one group of people (high wage earners)"
Says who?
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| | | 358 | biliruben
ID: 34820210 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 09:55
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We aren't talking about wages here. We are talking about capital. At least I thought we were.
Capital can be, and often is, never taxed.
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| | | 359 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 10:01
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Nothing is stopping you from carrying forward to 2010.
true assuming you have some gain to use it on.
This capital gains tax is on money that was already taxed once when you earned it. You're just shuffling it around amongst assets.
agreed.
The federal government shouldn't be picking and choosing winners and losers. Although, they do it all the time now. They shouldn't treat one group of people (high wage earners)differently than other groups of people.
while in principle i agree with this statement the government does treat people differently not just high wage earners, but farmers, people with kids, people who drive electric cars....I personally think it is ok to tax the higher wage earners more.
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| | | 360 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 10:17
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"Do you think the capital gains tax causes more investment or less investment? If the capital gains went away, would there be more investment or less investment?"
A gains tax clearly causes marginally less investment, but I don't think that the effect is as great as opponents of the capital gains tax make it out to be -- just as I don't think that raising income taxes slightly means that people will suddenly stop wanting to try to get higher incomes. Obviously, it changes risk/reward assessments. I just don't think it changes them all that much, because I don't think the marginal change in a capital gains rate normally makes those sort of investments suddenly unprofitable. It clearly makes them LESS profitable, but if the alternatives are to make less profit or to make no profit, rational people are going to choose to make less profit.
Similarly, I don't think that marginally higher income tax rates suddenly mean that people with high incomes are going to throw up their hands and quit working because the government wants 36% of their income instead of 33%, and it doesn't suddenly stop people making $50k per year from wanting to try to make $70k per year (or pick some other increase).
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| | | 361 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 13:44
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No, it wasn't taxed, not that there is anything wrong with taxing things twice, or a dozen times, if appropriate.
@biliruben: This policy is going to create millions of jobs.
Do you think the capital gains tax causes more investment or less investment? If the capital gains went away, would there be more investment or less investment?
@B7: It clearly causes less investment because once somebody makes a profit off of Investment One they have less to put into Investment Two by virtue of the taxation. What Democrats look at in terms of "investment" are all the pet make-work projects. Biliruben on these boards has even said that make-work is fine. Capital leads to better full time jobs.
They do that anyway, B7. I'd rather that they backed long-term investment over short term.
@Perm Dude: Then how would any start up company get funding Perm Dude? Or any kind of short term bridge funding by venture capitalists. There is nothing wrong with short term or long term investments. To demonize short term investments over long term investments.
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| | | 362 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 13:52
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Start up funding is entirely separate from capital gains (and the taxes that result).
You put your money into a venture capital fund, then pull it out after less than a year you would be subject to capital gains taxes on that profit. Most venture capital players are in the game to make speculative company buy-ins in the market--I honestly don't know of anyone in that market who cashes out completely after less than a year.
Will people with money stop investing because their profit is taxed at a slightly higher rate for short-term sales rather than long-term sales? Not in my opinion. There is a slight bias toward holding for a year or more because of the tax implications, but remember we're talking about profit here, not losses. Will those with money stop trying to make more money because their profits are taxed at a higher *marginal* rate than they were previously? Very doubtful.
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| | | 363 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 14:39
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Will people with money stop investing because their profit is taxed at a slightly higher rate for short-term sales rather than long-term sales? Not in my opinion.
while I don't agree with capital gains taxes, this is pretty accurate statement, I mean what are your other choices leave the money under your mattress, better to invest and be taxed not to invest at all.
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| | | 364 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 14:40
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I guess you can also just go spend it which will in its own way help the economy too.
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| | | 365 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 15:04
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"What Democrats look at in terms of "investment" are all the pet make-work projects."
We're having a perfectly good discussion here -- probably THE most productive one we've had in a while. Do you think you could perhaps leave these snide jabs out of it?
Make-work projects ARE clearly one form of investment. I don't think biliruben would particularly disagree that long term jobs are preferable to short term ones (but I'll let him speak for himself). However, when the people with the capital decide not to invest it--and I don't think this has much to do with capital gains tax rates, since those were significantly HIGHER throughout most of the 1990s than now, and were significantly LOWER in the 2003-2008 time period-- see http://www.ctj.org/pdf/regcg.pdf -- then you have to pretty much take what you can get.
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| | | 366 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 15:10
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#363: That could possibly spur sales of extra large mattresses...
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| | | 367 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 13:23
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Start up funding is entirely separate from capital gains (and the taxes that result).
Not really no. It all depends on whether we are talking about debt funding or equity based funding. A lot of start ups have to cough up equity stakes.
Will people with money stop investing because their profit is taxed at a slightly higher rate for short-term sales rather than long-term sales? Not in my opinion. There is a slight bias toward holding for a year or more because of the tax implications, but remember we're talking about profit here, not losses. Will those with money stop trying to make more money because their profits are taxed at a higher *marginal* rate than they were previously? Very doubtful.
The concept of venture capital will exist yes Perm Dude. Where the tax rates are a problem is that is kills off capital used to make the next investment. You can do math so I will not patronize you here. It is also factored into the below the line return of an investment and if that does not exceed the hurdle rate then people do other things with the money or sit on it. With a net impact of 25 billion to the treasury that is money that is easily offset elsewhere. I still have not noticed that study posted online yet. When I see it I will post the link.
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| | | 368 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Sep 27, 2010, 13:19
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As promised I have found the full study mentioned in 336. The Executive Summary is here. On the right hand side of the page is the link to the full study in a PDF. It is a merciful 45 pages. I read it this weekend and found it to be fair. It really makes the case for eliminating the capital gains tax to create jobs. Obama should do this.
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| | | 369 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Sep 27, 2010, 13:30
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Thanks. I'll look at it this week. I'm very busy finishing work on a project I can't tell you about, but might elicit some chuckles when I'm able to reveal it in a few weeks (had to sign a confidentiality agreement which lasts until book pub).
pd
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| | | 370 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Sep 27, 2010, 13:40
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It will get your heart to come around on the taxation of capital gains. At a net of $25 billion to the treasury it is far more stimulative than other methods that cost much more. Do not look at it as a left or right issue. Bill Clinton cut the capital gains tax too. He understood the economy.
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| | | 371 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Sep 27, 2010, 13:57
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Well, there is a big difference between cutting and eliminating. I believe that there are some tax avoidance strategies which come into play with capital gains which are not reflected in the revenue numbers (that is, capital is held longer to reduce the tax, which reduces tax revenue to the government but which is a good thing overall).
But I'll certainly check it out.
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| | | 372 | Seattle Zen in Forks
ID: 458542714 Mon, Sep 27, 2010, 15:54
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Cutting capital gains taxes is a horrible idea, it's been a pet project of billionaries and their Republican beneficiaries for decades, but the bottom line is this, the lower the capital gains rate, the more regressive a tax system. Billionaires don't suddenly create jobs because they don't have to pay taxes on the profits generated when they sell their art collection.
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| | | 373 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Sep 27, 2010, 17:17
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SZ would trade a cut in capital gains in exchange for higher tax rate on higher incomes that would more make up the difference in lost tax revenues?
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| | | 375 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Sep 28, 2010, 16:29
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that is not surprising, people usually become wealthy by being wise with there money and that includes saving it. You don't become rich by spending all your money.
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| | | 376 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Sep 28, 2010, 16:41
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Sure, but it kind of puts down the notion of stimulating the economy via upper-class tax cuts. Money sitting idly, and not being spent, doesn't really help the economy nearly as much as money that is actively put to work right away.
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| | | 377 | Boldwin
ID: 408352818 Tue, Sep 28, 2010, 19:38
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Someone has to buy all the bon bons.
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| | | 378 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 10:13
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You've got to wonder about the motivation behind some union tactics. There may be more to this story than is presented here, but it's a pretty good indication as to why many of our domestic industries are unable to compete on a global scale.
Those of us who are business owners are subject to wild fluctuations in income, especially in the past two and a half years. Perhaps these union workers should try working a job on straight commission, like a realtor, or try opening a homebuilding business when there's no homes being built in order to get a dose of reality.
Those who vote to lose their jobs should be excluded from any unemployment benefits beyond the normal 26 week period.
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| | | 379 | Frick
ID: 42825248 Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 10:43
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I can't say that I'm surprised. I worked at a company that had a plant with a UAW union. When new management was installed and the first contract was being negotiated, management wouldn't meet the unions demands and only offered a modest annual wage increase (3%) and an increase on health insurance premiums (more than the 3% wage increase, but far less than the actual increase).
The union reject the offer and went on strike. At the time the local economy was starting to tank, with unemployment eventually reaching 19%. The workers in the plant made roughly double the local average.
Replacement workers were quickly hired at the offered contract price and eventually the union was decertified.
I think unions are to often trying to think big picture. If we take a cut here, we'll have to take a cut everywhere. But as the factories are shut down those members have no job.
I know the local paper published a story talking about the local union looking into sueing the national union based on the horrific advice they were given. I don't think anything came of it, but I can't say I'm surprised by the outcome in the story.
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| | | 380 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 13:09
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Unions are worthless for me. Unless you're in the union. Even then, they can be worthless. I don't mind people forming unions, and going on strike; as long as the employer can hire new workers to replace them. This is not so easy for the electricians union or the MLB union, who actually have some skills that may be hard to replace. But these federal employee unions who just shuffle around paper, I would think are easily replacable, especially with real unemployment at 22%.
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| | | 381 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 13:25
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Ask Gov. Christie in New Jersey how the teacher unions have responded to him. The macro global economy is self correcting. Workers with high school educations making 60k plus pension, heatlhcare, and weeks upon weeks of PTO are being replaced by Chinese, Indians, and Vietnamese at 1/10th the cost for factory jobs. Throw in a punitive tax code on businesses and why should they keep the jobs here? Unions in moderation have done some really good things for America but union, companies, and our government need to adapt to face the reality that the United States is not the only game in town anymore. We cannot just have a corporate tax rate of 35% and say FU take it. China, India, and Brazil are all too happy to take that business and charge less taxes or look the other way if you are big enough and pitch a fit.
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| | | 383 | Boldwin
ID: 291370 Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 01:13
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Finally something that isn't Bush's fault!
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| | | 385 | J-Bar
ID: 99372218 Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 00:23
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re 382 -- they should be since it was signed by Bush and now using their numbers drops his deficit back down to about 600 billion. Nice
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| | | 386 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 13:13
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Do not trust the government employment stats Perm Dude. People who fall off the rolls do not count as unemployed. The numbers are far worse than reported.
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| | | 387 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 13:17
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Yes, I'm aware of the limitation of unemployment stats. If you have accurate numbers from another source I'd be pleased to see them. Otherwise, we take what we can get with the numbers.
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| | | 388 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 13:19
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If I do post some will the source be dismissed because there is no way I will probably find a mainstream source because they all report the same lie.
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| | | 389 | biliruben
ID: 34820210 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 09:43
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There is a class-war, and it's a rout.
The answer becomes clearer when one recognizes, as the book stresses, that politics is largely about organized combat. It’s a form of warfare. “It’s a contest,” said Professor Pierson, “between those who are organized, who can really monitor what government is doing in a very complicated world and bring pressure effectively to bear on politicians. Voters in that kind of system are at a disadvantage when there aren’t reliable, organized groups representing them that have clout and can effectively communicate to them what is going on.”
The book describes an “organizational revolution” that took place over the past three decades in which big business mobilized on an enormous scale to become much more active in Washington, cultivating politicians in both parties and fighting fiercely to achieve shared political goals. This occurred at the same time that organized labor, the most effective force fighting on behalf of the middle class and other working Americans, was caught in a devastating spiral of decline.
Thus, the counterweight of labor to the ever-increasing political clout of big business was effectively lost.
----
This hyperconcentration of wealth and income, and the overwhelming political clout it has put into the hands of the monied interests, has drastically eroded the capacity of government to respond to the needs of the middle class and others of modest income.
So you are wondering why we don't have any money for a jobs bill? It's because the rich need their 4th yacht.
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| | | 390 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 11:04
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For the most part i agree with what the article is saying but it is glaring wrong here:
Last year was a terrific year for those at the very top. Professors Hacker and Pierson note in their book that investors and executives at the nation’s 38 largest companies earned a stunning total of $140 billion — a record. The investment firm Goldman Sachs paid bonuses to its employees that averaged nearly $600,000 per person, its best year since it was founded in 1869.
this is not indication of government policy but of corporate policy.
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| | | 391 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 11:06
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Those corporations wouldn't be around except for government policy to bail them out, however.
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| | | 392 | Frick
ID: 42825248 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 11:09
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It might be a corporate policy, but it is being driven by government policy. Before Reagan tax rates at the very, very top were extremely high. The incentive for corporate executives to have lavish paydays was decreased as the vast majority was going to be taken by the government. Now with the top tax rates, that disincentive is no longer there.
I don't think the higher rates were there intentionally to keep corporate pay down, but it effectively did.
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| | | 393 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 11:28
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That is probably true but that was also 30 years ago now, nobody seemed to find it a problem till now. lets look at another quote:
a small group of individuals hauling in more than $50 million annually (sometimes much more), increased fivefold from 2008 to 2009, even as the nation was being rocked by the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.
i am not sure what tax changes happened from 2008 to 2009.
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| | | 394 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 12:58
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The ADP report today said that 43k jobs were created in October. We need roughly 150k per month just to break even with changes in the population. Another Obama failure.
So you are wondering why we don't have any money for a jobs bill?
Because it is a stupid idea that will not work that has already been discussed in two threads here.
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| | | 395 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 13:07
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I guess we're lucky that the President is in charge of the economy, eh? We just have get him to flip that jobs switch...
Now, if only he would agree with the GOP that shortening unemployment benefits and firing large numbers of government workers will improve the unemployment numbers and get the economy back on track.
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| | | 396 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 13:18
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I guess we're lucky that the President is in charge of the economy, eh?
How many times has the phrase "The Bush Economy" been uttered by the left?
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| | | 397 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 14:07
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So are you aping the strawmen on the Left because you believe them to be right? If so, you're going to have a hard time on the facts.
I suspect, however, that like DW, you can't pass up an opportunity to be partisan because you believe the other side had their partisan shot.
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| | | 398 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 14:09
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*ahem* nudge *ahem* Thought you didn't like seeing those personal attacks on here? Might be polite to delete that.
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| | | 399 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 16:44
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a small group of individuals hauling in more than $50 million annually (sometimes much more), increased fivefold from 2008 to 2009, even as the nation was being rocked by the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.
This should give any thinking person a moment of pause, considering that wages have been stagnant for years for most Americans - the ones lucky enough to have jobs.
So apparently we have many more rich people running around, in spite of the recession, but job creation has been woefully slow. Isn't that counter intuitive to the GOP rhetoric that the rich create jobs? Was that ever based on any data or was it just invented out of thin air?
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| | | 400 | Boldwin
ID: 0102036 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 17:01
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These would be the insiders who figured out how to short the sub-prime market I imagine.
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| | | 401 | Boldwin
ID: 0102036 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 17:10
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If you were really paying attention you would have noticed a number of congressmen in on this kind of deal..."The decision to use derivatives to short, or bet against, low-quality U.S. home loans taken by a select group of hedge funds last year appears to have become the most profitable single trade of all time, making well over $20bn in total so far this year.
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| | | 402 | Boldwin
ID: 0102036 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 17:18
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Greene says that two years ago, he asked a friend, hedge fund manager John Paulson, about a hedge. Paulson said he was starting a fund to short subprime bonds through credit default swaps. 'I asked him, 'John, can I do this on my own?' He says Paulson told him, 'You won't get approved.'
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| | | 403 | Boldwin
ID: 0102036 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 17:20
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Very remenicent of the political insiders riding the S&L crisis for all it was worth.
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| | | 404 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 21:15
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#401, 402, & 403
Best posts you've made in months
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| | | 405 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 01:47
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Is Baldwin thinking "maybe a high tax rate on those subprime shorters isn't such a bad idea" out loud?
Hey, you are coming along!
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| | | 406 | Boldwin
ID: 0102036 Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 06:52
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See SZ, the difference is that this is insider trading that politicians are engaging in when they should be the insider trading police.
A far cry from the endangered golden goose that you have the assault rifle trained on.
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| | | 408 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 13:04
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I did not see that chart in the linked article Perm Dude. Nevertheless the negative government employment number would be good if it were probably not full of teachers, police, and firemen. Nobody would mourn the loss of D.C. bureaucrats.
The Conservative Recovery is also an interesting and unwarranted shot at Republicans here. It is not them that has been in charge of the country for the past couple years.
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| | | 409 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 13:16
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Depends on what you mean by "DC bureaucrats" I suppose. And whether they pay the way. I believe the above chart is for federal government employees, which removes teachers, firemen, and police. It also excludes military.
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| | | 410 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 14:54
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As a follow-up to a post I made somewhere, this is an interesting recession in that it is the only one on record in which wages continue to rise throughout. Many non-housing related businesses aren't hiring a ton of new people (only enough to cover attrition and a little more) but they are paying the people they keep more money.
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| | | 411 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 13:07
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Jobless rate climbs, to 9.8%
I haven't (and don't plan to) read much reaction to this one, but this strikes me as an outlier. I think steady, slower-than-normal growth is pretty much what we'll see for the short term (9-12 months).
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| | | 413 | biliruben
ID: 18111620 Mon, Dec 06, 2010, 21:01
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Crapity-crap
You are spineless, Mr. Obama.
Just increasing the cavernous divide between rich and poor, increasing the deficit, and fattening the obesist of fat cats slurping and puking at the trough that used to be a beacon of competitive capitalism.
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| | | 414 | Boldwin
ID: 13112977 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 08:51
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My favorite Dem tweet, 'Wonder who'll be the first Dem candidate demanding to see the birth certificate'.
Waiting for the first post-partisan can't-we-all-just-get-along bleeding heart to cheer actual compromise.
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| | | 415 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 08:57
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If you think it's compromise, it's clearly a total freaking rout.
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| | | 416 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 09:06
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Agree, I am not happy about this. There needs to be a serious plan about phasing out the tax cuts and for putting people back to work. This is not it. This is a pathetic display of weakness and politicking to avoid making tough decisions. Obama has been a great President to date because he's made wise yet unpopular decisions. This is the exact opposite.
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| | | 417 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 09:43
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I think Obama played this pretty well. The most important thing was to erase the uncertainty that has gripped the economy for the past several years.
Now that we know that the wealthy will get to keep what they've been keeping for almost a decade, we can see if there's actually a link to employment numbers as conservatives claim. Now that businesses will enjoy renewed incentives, we can actually see if employment numbers respond as conservatives claim they will.
If they don't, all that's been accomplished is adding a trillion bucks to the deficit, and likely a wider spread between the wealthy and not wealthy.
Still, it's strange to hear conservative economist Larry Kudlow lavish praise on Obama on CNBC, while a host of other conservatives are suddenly extremely bullish on equities and commodities. After failing to move the $250,000 ceiling up to a million last week, it was apparent that there would be no extension of tax breaks unless Obama stepped in and brokered a compromise.
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| | | 418 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 09:56
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This was played about as poorly as it could have been played. The Democrats had much more power in this situation that the GOP, yet the compromise is significantly tilted to the GOP position.
Why do we need more empirical evidence about the efficacy of these tax levels? Why must it come at the expense of the budget deficit that is wildly out of control and which Obama promised to halve in his first term? This policy is bad policy and, worse yet, bad politics. And now Obama owns it; you are incorrect to think he can point the finger and blame the minority party for enacting a deal that he brokered, sold to his own party and signed into law.
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| | | 419 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 10:05
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It would have been so much better if the GOP position (continue to borrow money for tax breaks for the rich) had some positives for the economy or the country. Then it would be just a matter of trying to fit in two different advantageous strategies.
But the GOP basically said "we agree to do some of the things we should be doing anyway" and got an extension for the super rich to pay less in taxes for two years--at a time in which federal tax rates are at their lowest in 60 years.
I would say that this could be used politically, to show that the GOP is unserious about their only issue (the deficit). But the Democrats seem to be entirely unwilling to even attempt that argument.
Big win for the GOP. This isn't a compromise. This is the GOP rolling Obama, who is kicking the can down to 2012. I'm not as extremely disappointed at this as progressives are (after all, there are now some things the GOP have agreed to do, even if they should be doing them anyway), but I think Obama missed an opportunity to force the issue (tax breaks v deficit) onto the GOP.
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| | | 420 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 10:22
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Razor, it's my feeling that your focus, and those who feel the same way you do, is on party politics, whereas Obama's is on moving the country's economy forward.
I think it's bad policy to oppose something simply because the opposition party favors it. In this case, there's evidence that getting past this impasse will benefit the economy in terms of market growth, given that business and investors are now fully aware of conditions for at least the next two years.
Is it empirical evidence? Absolutely not, but I don't know if empirical evidence and economic speculation can ever be used in the same sentence. After two years of an Obama presidency that has been unfairly characterized as anti-business by his opponents, those voices must now either cease their daily diatribe of negativity, or be recognized as hyper-partisans more concerned with rhetorical victories than moving the economy forward.
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| | | 421 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 10:23
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Why didn't the D's let the tax cut die in the Senate, and blame it on the R's. The R's got too greedy, and now nobody gets a tax cut, because of them.
Why is it that the tax rates that have been used for the last 10 years are not the regular tax rates. But they are called the Bush tax-cut rates. Why are the rates from 10 years ago, the regular rates?
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| | | 422 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 10:38
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Why didn't the D's let the tax cut die in the Senate, and blame it on the R's. The R's got too greedy, and now nobody gets a tax cut, because of them.
Correct. Clearly, bad politics by Democrats.
Why is it that the tax rates that have been used for the last 10 years are not the regular tax rates. But they are called the Bush tax-cut rates. Why are the rates from 10 years ago, the regular rates?
Because the cuts played a very significant role in moving from a budget surplus to a massive deficit.
PV - In terms of jumpstarting a slowly growing economy, this compromise does little to address that, but now Obama will try to sell it as though it might. The business tax credits and payroll tax holiday might, but at the steep cost of going an 600-800 billion in deficit since those had to be thrown in order to extend the tax cuts for two years. The same people who admonish the current administration for the deficit they run are the ones cheering this so-called compromise.
In the current climate, Republicans seldom get called out for hyper-partisan which is why they can halt the entire legislative process to prevent the rich from going back to Clinton-level tax rates. Now Obama has let them get away with it. That's bad politics because it allows them to implement bad policy, namely the tax cuts.
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| | | 423 | Seward Norse
ID: 297412913 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 10:40
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Wait a minute... The deficit grows and republicans are happy about this? I don't want tax breaks continued, and I also want spending cut. I've agreed with the GOP that the deficit needs to be tackled, but this isn't going to help.
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| | | 424 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 10:45
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Exactly.
#421: That might be exactly what happens. The Dems in the House, particularly, are very displeased.
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| | | 425 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 11:14
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No, now the onus has shifted to the Democrats. A compromise deal has been brokered by the President and top GOP leaders. If the tax cuts don't pass now, it will be the Democrats who got too greedy and held up everyone's tax cuts. How badly could the Democrats have been outmaneuvered?
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| | | 426 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 11:23
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OK, let's exempt any talk of Republicans, Democrats and political victories for a minute, and just look at the nuts and bolts of the deal.
1. At the end of the year, without a deal, taxes would have risen for everyone, including the 98% who fall below the $250,000 threshold. Actually, since many of that 98% pay no income tax, it's a disingenous percentage, but let's use it for the sake of argument. Depending on annual income, that means several thousand dollars a year less for most Americans. In a consumer-driven economy, you've just taken billions of dollars out of the consumer's pocket and turned it over to the government, with absolutely no assurance that money is going to be used to pay down the debt. Much of that money will end up in state and local coffers in the form of state sales tax, and many states are in deeper economic bat guano than the feds. I don't think anyone will argue that, beginning January, Americans would cheer less money per paycheck. Instead, the psyche of gloom and despair, which leads to less discretionary spending, affects numerous segments of the economy. This is true even for those in the $250,000 range, which isn't as wealthy as advertised.
2. The business tax credits and payroll tax holidays, if they work as intended, allows business to expand payroll and plan for growth as opposed to not knowing what conditions they are going to be operating under. The more confident business is regarding the future and how it affects operations, the more likely they are to aggressively plan for growth.
3. Equity markets react to positive and negative elements, not only in this country, but internationally. Capital gains at 15% is incentive for investors to participate in the markets. It doesn't matter what percentage is taxed on capital gains if there are no capital gains to be taxed.
4. Those who have been committed to promoting the fear factor have just lost most of their ammunition.
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| | | 427 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 17:28
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For the average American the tax cut expiration would been a few hundred dollars more, not thousands. For the rich, it's 10s of thousands they gain.
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| | | 428 | chode
ID: 4744089 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 17:56
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You mean, tens of thousands of their own dollars they "get" to keep and not give over to the government?
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| | | 429 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 18:20
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You mean, tens of thousands of dollars they have to use to pay off the giant bill for that war they were letting roll over on their kids credit card?
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| | | 430 | chode
ID: 4744089 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 18:41
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That's right, because anyone making > $250k/year is a spendthrift Republican. Grow up.
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| | | 431 | weykool
ID: 138481617 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 20:04
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i>at a time in which federal tax rates are at their lowest in 60 years.
looking forward to how you spin this statement with the actual tax rates.
Top Year bracket 1913-1915 ………. 7% 1916 ………. 15% 1917 ………. 67% 1918 ………. 77% 1919-1920 ………. 73% 1921 ………. 73% 1922 ………. 56% 1923 ………. 56% 1924 ………. 46% 1925-1928 ………. 25% 1929 ………. 24% 1930-1931 ………. 25% 1932-1933 ………. 63% 1934-1935 ………. 63% 1936-1939 ………. 79% 1940 ………. 81.10% 1941 ………. 81% 1942-1943 ………. 88% 1944-1945 ………. 94% 1946-1947 ………. 86.45% 1948-1949 ………. 82.13% 1950 ………. 84.36% 1951 ………. 91% 1952-1953 ………. 92% 1954-1963 ………. 91% 1964 ………. 77% 1965-1967 ………. 70% 1968 ………. 75.25% 1969 ………. 77% 1970 ………. 71.75% 1971-1981 ………. 70% 1982-1986 ………. 50% 1987 ………. 38.50% 1988-1990 ………. 28% 1991-1992 ………. 31% 1993-2000 ………. 39.60% 2001 ………. 39.10% 2002 ………. 38.60% 2003-2009 ………. 35%
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| | | 432 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 21:42
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As a share of GDP, we're currently enjoying the lowest federal tax rates, yesiree:
This is, in fact, the main reason why the deficit is going up and up. Even if spending remains flat, when you choke off revenue with the short term candy of tax cuts, deficits balloon up quickly.
Looking at the rate that millionaires pay on their income is only looking at a sliver of the revenue pie.
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| | | 433 | weykool Leader
ID: 41750315 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 22:38
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Typical bogus changing of the argument. This has been covered before. When you lower tax rates and the economy grows because of it, and the total taxes collected increase its called Working as Intended. To then come back and try to make the argument that as a % of GDP the taxes went down, all I can say is DUH. In an ideal world the lower taxes are as a % of GDP the better for all concerned.
For all you Dems hand wringing about the deficit look no further than the out of control spending. Control the spending and the deficit will disappear. Total income tax revenue have for the most part increased every year (Even when adjusted for inflation) but our wonderful leaders find a way to spend the increases and more year after year.
Seriously...35% of your income isnt enough? In California you can add another 9% income taxes and 9% sales tax in addition to all the other taxes and fees. I have no idea how some of you can make an argument to increase taxes when someone is already giving more than 50% of their income to government. I suppose when your motto is: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". Then anything less than 100% is unacceptable.
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| | | 434 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 22:42
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What's it called when you lower taxes and the economy doesn't grow because of it? Because that's what has been happening for the last few years, in case you haven't noticed.
"Total income tax revenue have for the most part increased every year (Even when adjusted for inflation)"
Citation needed!
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| | | 435 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 22:52
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When you lower tax rates and the economy grows because of it, and the total taxes collected increase its called Working as Intended.
To mirror DW's point: And what happens when you raise taxes and the economy grows? Or when your lower taxes (causing the government to borrow money to be paid back with interest later) and the economy doesn't grow?
And surely you understand that you can't even begin the argument about whether taxes have been raised or lowered by examining the top tax bracket?
Total income tax revenue have for the most part increased every year (Even when adjusted for inflation)
Actually, this isn't true. It isn't even close to true.
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| | | 436 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Tue, Dec 07, 2010, 23:57
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post 433 is pathetic. Your attitude, weykool, is an embarrassment. If you can't make an economic argument with citations and without personal attacks, you should move elsewhere.
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| | | 437 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 11:05
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Actually, this isn't true. It isn't even close to true.
not even close to true? i mean if i gave you those numbers and said they were global temperatures you would be screaming global warming.
It would appear that taxes were pretty much non-exsistant before WW2.
I am not sure any of these arguments are valid, I think it would be more interesting to see data on total taxes(sales, gas, income,...) paid by an individual in year.
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| | | 438 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 12:15
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Re: 431....Thanks for the table. Interesting information. Another reason why Woodrow Wilson was our worst President ever IMO. When he took office there was no income tax, and by the time he left , it was up to 73%.
That table is the maximum rates. I assume there is a correlation to the average rates, but there may not be every year. Do you have data on the average rates over this period. Or the mode or the median, or that other M thing....the mean. Anything like that.
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| | | 439 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 12:18
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LOL wat?
weykool said (unsubstantiated, of course, because it's impossible to actually provide stats that show it) "Total income tax revenue have for the most part increased every year (Even when adjusted for inflation)".
PD then posts a chart that shows that, no the total income tax revenues have actually gone DOWN in REAL dollars as compared to 2005 (for example, we collected over $400 billion LESS in real dollars in 2009 as opposed to 2008), and are lower in inflation-adjusted terms than all but one year since 1998 -- so, yes, "not even close to true" is a pretty accurate reflection of events.
You may not LIKE the answer, but unless you want to post some conflicting stats, what you like really isn't an issue.
Take a look at the 2000-2004 time period, for example, wherein (in real dollars -- you can look up the inflation-adjusted numbers) we went from collecting $2.025 trillion in income tax revenue and spending $1.789 trillion, to collecting $1.827 trillion and spending $2.292 trillion. Given this data, explain to me again how "Republicans" and "Fiscally Responsible" belong together in any sentence that doesn't include the word "not"?
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| | | 440 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 12:20
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(439 addressed 437, hopefully obviously)
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| | | 441 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 13:54
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#438: You know Wilson's administration isn't on the table, yes?
:)
There is nothing on the chart about tax rates. It's about revenue as a share of GDP.
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| | | 442 | Mith
ID: 371138719 Sat, Jan 08, 2011, 06:02
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| | | 443 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Mar 05, 2011, 21:14
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Some guardedly good news on unemployment
Taking the good with the bad, it is nice to see 192,000 new jobs last month and unemployment dipping down to 8.9%.
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| | | 444 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Apr 01, 2011, 12:28
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Another month, more good news on jobs.
I should subtitle this "Stuff you won't hear on FOX News."
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| | | 445 | Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616 Fri, Apr 01, 2011, 12:47
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Two straight excellent months for job gains. Wow, it's been a long time coming!
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| | | 446 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Fri, Apr 01, 2011, 13:37
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I wouldn't go so far as to say excellent. Decent, but we really need to see ~ 300k new jobs per month to see significant downward pressure on unemployment rate.
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| | | 448 | Perm Dude
ID: 39961218 Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 17:25
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Bob Stein of NRO on the jobs numbers, and an important reminder that much of the reaction to job numbers are a result of met (or unmet) expectations.
A year ago the unemployment rate was 9.7 percent. During this time, nonfarm jobs have grown at an average monthly rate of 152,000 while civilian employment has grown at a rate of 140,000 per month. In other words, we don’t need 150,000 jobs per month just to keep the unemployment rate steady. Because of the aging of the labor force, 150,000 jobs per month is more than enough to push down the jobless rate.
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| | | 449 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 17:29
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I just heard NPR's radio take on this and they didn't think it was adequate or keeping pace with demand.
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| | | 450 | Perm Dude
ID: 39961218 Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 17:34
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Maybe. We're in uncharted waters here. We really need to stop with the expectation game, in any case, to give ourselves better information.
And far be it for me to disagree with the NRO (ha!) but while I get his larger point, it isn't clear about the underlying drag such as discouraged workers, etc.
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| | | 451 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 09:54
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"[T]he outlook remains unsatisfactory over the next few years and we'll continue to ask ourselves whether or not additional stimulus or additional actions can provide a better outcome and that's certainly something that is--remains on the table and we'll continue to evaluate as we go forward."
"I think it would be helpful if we could get assistance from some other parts of the government to work with us to help create more jobs."
- Ben Bernanke, begging for help from those serious people in Congress.
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| | | 452 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 13:24
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I'd like to see the line showing the growth in the population of employment age potential workers.
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| | | 454 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 13:33
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Sorry, that last graph is a year old...here is a current one.
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| | | 455 | sarge33rd
ID: 461034512 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 13:34
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I fail to see your point B. The population growth, or absence there of, has nothing to do with the disappearance of jobs which were there "yesterday". Further, as is evidenced by the rising unemployment claims, those jobs lost were not attrition losses, where a recently deceased worker was not replaced.
So, other than yet another attempt at deflection...did you have a point?
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| | | 456 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 13:36
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The ratio of employable to employed seems to be still trending downward.
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| | | 457 | sarge33rd
ID: 461034512 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 13:47
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so, deflection WAS your point?
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| | | 458 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:09
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I'll allow myself a bit of optimism when I see that black line in the last graph trend up and stay up.
If every last underemployed person gives up and stops even looking for a job, and the unemployment figures gets some artificial juice, I'm not cheering.
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| | | 459 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:12
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And I'd find a 'private sector only' graph even more useful because it would cut out the phony Obama stimulus part out of it.
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| | | 460 | sarge33rd
ID: 461034512 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:13
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phoney? The millions who have not yet lost their homes THANKS to that stimulus, would certainly take exception to your calling it "phoney".
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| | | 461 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:14
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Yeah, I find virtually all public sector jobs an unfortunate waste.
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| | | 462 | sarge33rd
ID: 461034512 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:20
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Yep, we dont need the Border Patrol, Law Enforcement, Fire Fighters, EMTs, Teachers, Park Rangers, DOT personnel, ATCs, Judges, .....
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| | | 463 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:44
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Listen to NPR today and catch a repeat of the Steve Rossi story.
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| | | 464 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:45
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And then for heaven sake privatize the entire lot of em.
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| | | 465 | sarge33rd
ID: 461034512 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:47
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sure, run the cost WAY up by the time you satisfy profit motives and investor demands.
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| | | 466 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:50
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There would immediately be a drop in the number of feet up on desks and double-dippers retiring with three bloated pensions, each bigger than my income.
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| | | 467 | sarge33rd
ID: 461034512 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:53
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THERE it is. "They" hgave more than "ME" and therefore "THEY" are drawing a bloated pay/benefit.
Then put on the uniform and take the oath.
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| | | 468 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 15:13
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By definition anyone getting paid for two jobs he isn't doing while his feet are up on his desk at the job 'he is doing', and then retires in the one percent club...
...is drawing bloated pay.
Join the party of useless overpaid leeches? No thanks.
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| | | 469 | sarge33rd
ID: 461034512 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 15:22
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Didnt see very many soldiers with their feet up on desks very damn often. I think your characterization, is grossly out of touch with the common reality/truth of the workplace. IOW..BIASED and BS.
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| | | 470 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 15:28
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Chicago City Hall

Pick a floor, any floor.
Half inch deep wear patches on the desks.
Only busy right before elections.
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| | | 471 | sarge33rd
ID: 461034512 Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 15:49
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Desks which likely, have been there since the Hoover Administration. Do you have a valid contention, or did you just intend to spew sh*t and garbage all weekend?
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| | | 472 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 09:29
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At our current pace, it will take until 2016 just to get back to pre-recession levels of payroll employment.
I'm not sure where Baldwin was going with all the other graphs, but I'll charitably hope he was simply highlighting a differing, unbiased view.
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| | | 473 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 18:55
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Business Insider
 When President Obama makes his pitch to voters next year on why they should elect him to a second term, he'll likely point to some version of this chart.
What the following chart shows is that Obama inherited a bum economy but that, under his watch, things have begun to turn around. In the past year, the unemployment rate has dropped a full percentage point amid improving job growth. Assuming those trends continue, Obama will be able to say that, yes, the economy needs to be much stronger, but that it's currently heading in the right direction.
That exact pitch helped Reagan win his 1984 reelection bid when he destroyed Walter Mondale —Mondale carried only his home state of Minnesota and Washington D.C. — despite an unemployment rate of 7.4% on election day. One year earlier, unemployment stood at 8.8%, higher than it is today, but it then steadily ticked down over the following months.
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| | | 474 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 05:38
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Guys in the Dem advisor inner circle like Stanley Greenberg are not particularly confident about this argument. Progress would have to gain momentum for that to work effectively even with some democrats.
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| | | 475 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 09:55
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Elections are about choices. If the GOP nominates a Gingrich, Santorum, or Bachman (for example) the charts above will go a long way toward keeping those people down to a regional (southern) strategy only.
Greenberg always seemed (to me, anyway) very concerned about corporate and lobbying money in the process. I think he's just talking a different game.
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| | | 477 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 20:32
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I think you meant to say that Obama would be 'willing' [*snicker*] to steal a tax cut from the lower classes...
...in order to keep on collecting campaign contribution from both greens hoping to kill the pipeline, and everyone else who wants jobs and reasonable energy prices and who want the pipeline.
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| | | 478 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 21:28
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I'm going to go out on a long limb here and guess that no, that's only what YOU meant to say.
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| | | 479 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 23:23
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No, Boldwin, I meant what I said. The GOP thinks it can force Obama to dance its tune in order to get them (the GOP) to do the right thing on the payroll tax.
Funny how the GOP pretends to be anti-tax, until they find one which really only affects actual workers... Snicker, indeed.
Republicans are basically saying: We don't want to do the right thing, and to make us do it you'll have to do some things you don't want to do either.
As drafted by Republicans, the measure also would block the Environmental Protection Agency from issuing planned rules to limit toxic emissions from industrial boilers. Republicans said the regulation would be a job killer, and 41 Democrats supported an earlier stand-alone measure to prevent the administration from acting.
Other provisions to cover the cost of the legislation would repeal billions from the health care bill that Obama won from Congress last year when both the House and Senate were under Democratic control and from boosting fees that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac charge banks for backing their mortgages.
The GOP lacks the courage to make the arguments for these things on their own--they have to try to sneak them into law through some other, unconnected reason.
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| | | 480 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 01:16
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What they lack is a majority in the senate so they have to offer packages even the senate can't vote against.
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| | | 481 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 09:18
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...in order to keep on collecting campaign contribution from both greens hoping to kill the pipeline, and everyone else who wants jobs and reasonable energy prices and who want the pipeline.
You think that this pipeline is going to provide reasonable energy prices?
You think that hiring or keeping teachers with stimulus funds to temporarily help states in budget crisis is a temporary job that goes away, and not worth doing. But these jobs, which sounds like is between 7 and 12 thousand, and go away after the pipeline is built, are worth forcing a tax-hike on the the working class?
Your logic has twisted you into a pretzel.
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| | | 482 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 10:15
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1) You've avoided my point. Obama is double-dipping into both sides of the pipeline issue and he'll screw over anyone in order to go on doing it.
2) Obama has done countless things to guarantee exorbitant energy prices in the future, including obstructing this no-brainer obviously necessary pipeline.
3) We need to be in emergency mode lowering costs and raising productivity not favoring the non-producing public sector at the expense of productive America, guilding the class size numbers instead of putting the productive private sector on steroids.
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| | | 484 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 10:48
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...in order to keep on collecting campaign contribution from both greens hoping to kill the pipeline, and everyone else who wants jobs and reasonable energy prices and who want the pipeline.
Are you sure it's everyone else?
When it comes to private property rights and farmers' concerns over water issues in the Klamath basin, you scream AGENDA 21. Can we all agree that your protest rings hallow and you're simply buying the party line by ignoring the concerns of farmers and landowners along the pipeline route?
The National Farmers Union, which represents farmers and ranchers nationwide with 32 state affiliates, adopted the Nebraska-based policy opposing any project that threatens water supplies and condemning the use of unfair tactics to secure right-of-way from farmers and other landowners at our national convention in San Antonio on March 15.
The new policy says, “We oppose any infrastructure or resource development that jeopardizes the health, safety and quality of the Ogallala Aquifer and other freshwater resources.” It opposes “the use of eminent domain without the developer putting into place environmental safeguards and assuming liability for damages,” and calls for “transparency in the planning and routing process including public input, fair compensation to landowners, and a process to deal with landowner and public complaints and conflicts.”
Along the route, landowners and lawmakers are decrying TransCanada’s bullying and aggressive use of eminent domain to push the pipeline through. Farmers in Oklahoma and other states have taken TransCanada to court on grounds that as a foreign corporation it can’t take right-of-way under eminent domain until the State Dept. has granted TransCanada a Presidential Permit allowing the pipeline to cross the Canadian/US border.
Now, the latest conflict is uncovered public transcripts out of a report from the Canadian Energy Board in which TransCanada admits that to build this pipeline project to Texas refineries (instead of Midwestern refineries), price increases for Midwesterners would be likely. That means a new $2.5 billion expense for farmers and ranchers and increased food prices for everyone. link
I'm curious as to how the Klamath dam removal land issue is an example of Agenda 21, but the land use issues regarding the Keystone Pipeline taking land by eminent domain and threatening critical water supplies is not an example of Agenda 21. Could it be because the pipeline is a hot button issue for the Republicans, and your concern is based on partisan politics, not landowner rights?
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| | | 485 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 10:59
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The National Farmers Union, which represents farmers and ranchers nationwide with 32 state affiliates, adopted the Nebraska-based policy opposing any project that threatens water supplies and condemning the use of unfair tactics to secure right-of-way from farmers and other landowners at our national convention in San Antonio on March 15.
The new policy says, “We oppose any infrastructure or resource development that jeopardizes the health, safety and quality of the Ogallala Aquifer and other freshwater resources.” It opposes “the use of eminent domain without the developer putting into place environmental safeguards and assuming liability for damages,” and calls for “transparency in the planning and routing process including public input, fair compensation to landowners, and a process to deal with landowner and public complaints and conflicts.”
This is just funny since they have no problems draining all the water for themselves and then polluting everything down stream from them with chemicals.
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| | | 486 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 11:11
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I'm curious as to how the Klamath dam removal land issue is an example of Agenda 21, but the land use issues regarding the Keystone Pipeline taking land by eminent domain and threatening critical water supplies is not an example of Agenda 21. - PV
You can't seriously not understand this.
Agenda 21 is about rewilding and destroying industry.
Take a guess which is agenda 21, the pipeline or dam removal. This is elementary. How clever did you think you were being?
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| | | 487 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 11:22
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How clever did you think you were being?
Clever enough to show your fake concern for farmers and landowner rights. It didn't take much, since you haven't taken any time to see who actually opposes this pipeline. But then, you never took much to study the Klamath dam removal proposal either, so that's no suprise.
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| | | 488 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 11:50
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Take a guess which is agenda 21, the pipeline or dam removal.
Neither. But, if one wanted to examine the Agenda 21 concept of herding people from the rural areas into the cities, then the pipeline would be the better candidate. Look at what's happening in Williston, North Dakota.
WILLISTON, N.D. — After living all of her 82 years in the same community, Lois Sinness left her hometown this month, crying and towing a U-Haul packed with her every possession.
She didn't want to go, but the rent on her $700-a-month apartment was going up almost threefold because of heightened demand for housing generated by North Dakota's oil bonanza. Other seniors in her complex and across the western part of the state are in the same predicament.
"Our rents were raised, and we did not have a choice," Sinness said. "We're all on fixed incomes, living mostly on Social Security, so it's been a terrible shock."
It's an irony of the area's economic success: The same booming development that made North Dakota virtually immune to the Great Recession has forced many longtime residents to abandon their homes, including seniors who carved towns like Williston out of the unforgiving prairie long before oil money arrived.
In addition to raising the rent, Sinness' landlords were going to require even long-term tenants to pay a $2,000 deposit. She fled for a cheaper apartment in Bismarck, beyond the oil patch, where her daughter also lives. Her new home is 230 miles away.
"Grandma can't go to work in the oil fields and make a 150 grand a year," said A.J. Mock, director of the Williston Council for the Aging. Many of the seniors who are moving out "have lived here their entire lives and wanted to live here until they die."
Ellavon Weber, 88, is getting elbowed out of the state entirely. She's reluctantly moving to Arizona, where two of her three children live, leaving behind friends, her church and her weekly aerobics classes, as well as pinochle games and quilting bees. She says she will even miss the brutal winters.
"I thought I'd be in North Dakota the rest of my life, but evidently, that's not the case," Weber said.
Now, consider every small town along the pipeline route raising rents so that the locals have to move in with their kids hundreds or thousands of miles away in a big city. And it's temporary. What happens after the oil workers and the pipeline workers leave for the next transient job? If you think they're going to settle in Williston, then you've never been to Williston. There will be a string of ghost towns from Montana to Texas. It will be rewilded! Those UN conspirators are so sneaky they've completely fooled you.
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| | | 489 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 11:54
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So many many reasons that is wrong. For one thing ordinary eminent domain pays fair market value, usually the high end of fair market value.
Agenda 21 takings are achieved by regulating away the usefulness of vast areas of land resulting in drastic reductions in the land value and reimbursement.
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| | | 490 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 12:01
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Are we really back on the multi-debunked Agency 21 thing?
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| | | 491 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 12:13
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OMG, I proved Agenda 21 every step of the way from the Rio where it was adopted every step of the way down to the local level of implementation. In what possible way could you believe a cold hard fact treaty or your local 'smart code' implementation of that treaty has been debunked?
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| | | 492 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 12:18
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I proved Agenda 21
Excellent Colbert imitation.
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| | | 493 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 12:38
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Heh.
One thing for sure: Boldwin is certainly against anything Obama is for, and vice-versa. Even if he has to dance about the issues.
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| | | 494 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 13:01
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Actually, both sides are wrong on the pipeline. Obama for delaying the decision until after the election, and Republicans for trying to stampede it through on an unrelated bill before the vetting process is complete.
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| | | 495 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 13:08
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I agree on both counts, PV. I agree that a large pipeline needs planning to proceed, but delaying a decision until after the election seems needless--certainly some planning can and should proceed in the meantime.
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| | | 496 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 14:12
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For one thing ordinary eminent domain pays fair market value, usually the high end of fair market value.
not to renters it doesn't.
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| | | 498 | sarge33rd
ID: 3911381521 Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 22:47
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Post 91...and with his own statement ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I believe we have proven that Boldwin consumes regularly, copious quantities of hallucinogens.
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| | | 499 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 08:49
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You'd think I was talking about 'dis-proven' unicorns judging by these trolls.
Agenda 21 wiki entryAgenda 21 is an action plan of the United Nations (UN) related to sustainable development and was an outcome of the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED) held in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, in 1992. It is a comprehensive blueprint of action to be taken globally, nationally and locally by organizations of the UN, governments, and major groups in every area in which humans directly affect the environment. In their own words a comprehensive action plan to rule on every aspect of man on the planet. But other than that it's been proven that it isn't real or significant according to trolls pretending to referee the forum. Which Bush signed into soft law, despite it's non-existence.
For lurkers the steps that were taken to implement Agenda 21 are all laid out in the thread 'The Taking of Antelope Valley'. Summed up in Post #139:And those people got what they wanted at Earth Summit in Rio in 1992
And they got what they wanted in Earth Summit Rio+20 this year.
And they got what they wanted when Bush signed the Agenda 21 document.
And they got what they wanted when the president tasked ICLIE to draw up model local laws to impliment Agenda 21 in every county in America.
And they always eventually get what they want after as many iterations of Delphi Technique phony 'public buy in' sessions as it takes.
And they always get what they want when the zoning boards adopt ICLIE models for their own county/region etc.
And they always get what they want when the regional General Plan is drawn up because you wouldn't want to miss out on any federal dollars.
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| | | 501 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 10:56
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and they always get what they want
Making that statement 7 times in no way provides proof of any kind of Agenda 21 implementation. It does provide proof of an irrational thought process based on a hysterical paranoia that precludes any type of reality-based research.
I have no doubt that you have convinved yourself of your "always get what they want" claims. That's nothing more than an inherent flaw in basic thinking 101.
Did "they" get what they wanted when Pennsylvania added 1600 new fracking sites in the past year? Did they get what they wanted when Eastern Montana, North Dakota, Wyoming, Colorado and Utah expanded fracking, drilling, oil shale exploration and pipeline building in the past year?
I could list hundreds of examples of land use issues that are in conflict with the Agenda 21 treaty, but all I would need to present to prove that "they always get what they want" is false is one.
I'll reiterate what I've said before. Your position prohibits sensible debate on land use issues, water rights issues, forestry issues, even local zoning issues. Where is there room for a debate when you steadfastly claim that the UN Agenda 21 conspirators always get what they want, even though you've never proven any kind of implementation beyond, "I say so?"
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| | | 502 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 11:29
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They only get delayed. They never take no for a permanent answer. Like the county board in my county which put the question 'should we have county-wide zoning/planning' on the ballot twice, got crushed twice, and went ahead and implemented county zoning/planning anyway.
They have temporary setbacks but they are ultimately immune to democracy. They never take no for an answer.
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| | | 503 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 11:33
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Mr. Little, your table is ready...
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| | | 504 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 11:57
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They never take no for an answer.
There is no "they." It's just your lazy way of avoiding intelligent, adult discussion. I, for one, am tired of you insulting my intelligence, even if it is unintentional.
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| | | 505 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 12:00
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They have temporary setbacks but they are ultimately immune to democracy. They never take no for an answer."
Damn those people for not accepting a vote passage as a sign that they should give up. I hate those kind of asshats, they're the worst.
Wait, we weren't talking about the anti-abortion activists? Or the people bitching about Obamacare?
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| | | 506 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 12:13
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'They' are globalists and they do exist.
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| | | 507 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 12:18
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UFG. Unidentified Flouting Globalist.
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| | | 508 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 12:19
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Globalists is another term that has no meaning in and of itself.
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| | | 509 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 13:49
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Kinda like when ICLIE erased the meanings behind each letter of the acronym and you were like, 'They magically disappeared!'
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| | | 510 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 13:50
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Baldwin - You'd think I was talking about 'dis-proven' unicorns judging by these trolls.
PV - I, for one, am tired of you insulting my intelligence, even if it is unintentional.
pretty sure he didn't unintentionally refer to everyone he opposes as a troll. that was quite intentional.
at one point, it was just me, DWetz, and Sarge. considering Baldwin's instability combined with the fact that the three of us certainly call him out in harsh ways, it actually seemed somewhat credible.
but then it spread to PD, and Bili, and PV. and who knows who else. now it's hollow. entertaining, yet hollow.
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| | | 511 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 14:15
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Well, globalists do exist, so let's actually get specific as it pertains to this discussion. The poster boy for globalists(as seen by American conservatives, at least), the Climate Change Conference wrapped up last week in Durban, South Africa.
Here's how the green sustainablebusiness.com described the action.
US Obstructionist at Durban Climate Change Summit
The headline at Bloomberg News today is, "US Climate Stance ‘Blowing Negotiations Apart'" - we're sad to report that our country is obstructing progress at the COP 17 Climate Change Summit in Durban, South Africa.
Now in its second week (it ends December 9), the US is squashing any hope of an agreement by insisting a global deal isn't possible before 2020.
Unbelievably, the U.S. wants to focus on the voluntary emissions cuts agreed to last year and refuses to consider a global binding treaty until China and India commit to legally binding targets.
Immediately following the conference,
Canada pulls out of the Kyoto Protocol.
Is this an example of the globalists(they)always getting what they want? We're to believe that the globalists can't even agree what "they" want, but they control every land use and zoning decision in this country and never take no for an answer?
Keep in mind that not one US congressman nor US administration cabinet member attended the conference
If one were to look objectively at this issue, rather than conclude that the globalists(they)always get what they want, one would conclude that "they" are losing ground. The movement against sustainable energy is gaining steam, not losing steam. The expansion of drilling for traditional sources of energy like oil and natural gas is at historically high levels all over the world. Car races, truck races, motocross races, ATV, snowmobile and personal watercraft use, monster truck shows as well as general fossil fuel burning vehicles in traffic jams everywhere you look not only in this country but on a global basis is expanding, not contracting. Gas prices just fell below 3 bucks a gallon.
Hysteria and flat out lies about zoning boards adopting ICLIE models and smart codes destroying our freedoms are obvious to anyone willing to do a minimal amount of research.
OMG, I proved Agenda 21 every step of the way from the Rio where it was adopted every step of the way down to the local level of implementation. In what possible way could you believe a cold hard fact treaty or your local 'smart code' implementation of that treaty has been debunked?
Of course you've proven nothing except that Agenda 21 was adopted at the 1992 Rio summit. Beyond that, you failed to mention that implementation has and remains voluntary within member states. They rarely get what they want, even the sections of Agenda 21 that make sense for sustainable development in the 21st century with a global population estimated around 10 billion by 2050.
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| | | 512 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 14:39
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Unless your local government has explicitly kicked ICLIE out of their regional/city planning, you are under more UN control than you realize. It happens but all too rarely. I bet it hasn't happened where you live. Even if it has happened it's just a matter of time until your area gets bamboozled or bribed or threatened into making the same mistake again.
Rare victories don't make up for their inexorable progress overall and their method again does not recognize the word no.
It is the same process by which european countries and populations which didn't want the EU got dragged in anyway. They just ignore the word no until they finally get the yes they want.
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| | | 513 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 14:55
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Re: 510 -- I've grown tired of the constant harassment. I've repeatedly requested individual posts calling me a troll (especially when I wasn't even involved in the conversation) be deleted. It's a ridiculous waste of my time to have to request it individually each and every time. So, at this point, I've officially given up any hope that they'll take the hint and delete the 5124897th instance of the exact same insult, and will be responding in kind.
In short, *** that worthless **********, and if someone doesn't like it, they can shove it up their *********.
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| | | 514 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 16:12
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Unless your local government has explicitly kicked ICLIE out of their regional/city planning, you are under more UN control than you realize.
Here's the global membership of ICLIE, about 300 in the US. By comparison, The National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) is a drag racing governing body, which sets rules in drag racing and host events all over the United States and Canada. With over 80,000 drivers in its rosters, the NHRA is considered one of the largest motorsports sanctioning bodies in the world. link
A city or county that is a member is not under UN control. ICLIE is basically a consulting entity. They don't control local decisions. According to their website, ICLEI provides technical consulting, training, and information services.
Now, are there some municipalities with zealot government officials that want to follow the ICLIE agenda to the letter? Most likely. Are there municipalities that are members but basically ignore ICLIE suggestions? Most likely. Are there municipalities in Mexico, India, Brazil and other 3rd world countries which could benefit from consultation concerning sustainable development? Most likely.
There appears to be a campaign for many municipalities not to renew their contract with ICLIE. I think we'll see more of this in the future, as bad publicity(especially the UN connection)and a question of the need for such "consultation" and "services" is examined by communities which are fully capable of making local decisions based on local conditions. This is a good thing, IMO.
So, instead of ICLIE always getting what they want, it appears their influence is actually withering, at least here in the US.
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| | | 517 | Boldwin
ID: 1211451617 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 19:13
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Yeah, I think we'll see more resistance to this from the tea party.
No, you don't have to be a paying member of ICLIE to follow their model laws.
The influence of being the go-to source for model laws is quite powerful.
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| | | 518 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 10:08
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The influence of being the go-to source for model laws is quite powerful.
At least we're moving away from ridiculous "they always get what they want" and "they never take no for an answer" claims to a position that can actually be intelligently discussed.
One of the interesting things I found while researching the ICLIE is that one of the regional directors is the mayor of member city Las Vegas, Nv. I can't think of a better example of unsustainable development, as well as a complete disregard for environmental concerns as witnessed by the megawatts used to light the Strip and Downtown as well as the casino/mini-cities dotted throughout the metro. Throw in the humongous NASCAR track complex and 58 water-guzzling golf courses, and you've got to wonder if ICLIE model laws have had any influence in Vegas at all. And the suburban sprawl throughout the metro is 100% automobile dependent. There are no walkable communities. Only tourists on the strip and Downtown walk in Vegas.
Las Vegas may be an extreme case, but whatever membership fees the city has paid to ICLIE over the years appears to be a complete waste of taxpayer money. And therein lies what I perceive to be what should should be the main opposition to ICLIE membership. It isn't control over land use issues or recommendations of carbon control programs, or any of the other hysterical claims of UN-directed planning that are set in stone. It's taxpayer money being spent on what appears to be, at least in Las Vegas, programs, services and consultations that are inefficient and unnecessary, given that local planning is best performed considering local issues and conditions that are particular to a certain area instead of a global template.
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| | | 519 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 10:54
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There's nothing wrong with a municipality using any source it wants to for model ordinances.
I'm a planner in my town, and when we went to look for model sidewalk ordinances, we looked at a dozen, at least, from all over the place.
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| | | 520 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 11:12
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And sidewalks in Mt. Pocono, Pa.(?)have a completely different dynamic than those in Las Vegas, Nv.
Guessing that Mt. Pocono has plenty of vegetation that soaks up rain and run-off, while Las Vegas is the desert. It may not rain often, but when it does, flooding can occur with even minimal amounts.
Local issues; local solutions.
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| | | 521 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 11:13
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PV
The Illuminati began in 1776.
The UN began with the prototype League of Nations in 1919.
The EU began in 1958 or 1993 depending on how you define it.
The Rio Earth Summit that finalized and passed Agenda 21 was 20 years ago.
Pushers of a single global tyranny are as patient as they are relentless.
Don't tell me Las Vegas isn't ruled by an iron UN fist this week. Enjoy the interregnum until they do. Treasure it. Get your living and learning and growing done now while you still can.
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| | | 522 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 11:42
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#521 Now you're back to nonsense.
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| | | 523 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 13:46
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#520: Stormwater is a big problem here, at the top of the rocky Pocono plateau, but obviously in a different way. And different solutions need to be found which work locally.
Boldwin seems to confuse co-relation with causality--by insisting that if sustainability is the goal anywhere that somehow these evil Agenda 21 people were behind it all.
Put away the 70's era cold war spy novels, please.
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| | | 524 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 15:55
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Here in Las Vegas city council's latest policy on city and regional planning they announced they would start implementing 'form based' 'smart code' regulation. Meaning smart because ICLIE/UN came up with it, not 'we the people'.
It discusses requiring [walkable] communities, forcing/incentivizing alternate transportation, higher density mixed use, all UN requirements.
It points out that the city is required by state law to establish a regional master plan. They are following what is called Master Plan 2020. They describe [but don't name] the Delphi Technique by which public artificial 'buy-in is achieved and public ideas are squeezed out in favor of the predetermined 'smart code' 'Comprehensive Policy Plan' guidelines thru numerous manipulative public meetings.
So don't tell me how 58 golf courses where built way back when. Try doing what you want with your poperty NOW if it doesn't have mixed use high density anti-car anti-sprawl characteristics the UN/ICLIE is insisting on.
I don't care where you live. Just google "smart code", "cool cities", +ICLIE, "rural council" along with your county and city and you will almost invariably find that you are under the UN's thumb and you don't even know it.
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| | | 525 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 16:12
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Hahahaha. I'm sorry, but wacko UN conspiracy theories are, by definition, divorced from reality and deserve a big belly laugh whenever they appear.
'nuff said.
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| | | 526 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 16:52
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There is nothing theoretical about Agenda 21. It's real ink on real paper with Bush's real signature. It's real executive orders you can look up, setting up the implementation of Agenda 21. It's real model laws based on Agenda 21 that your regional/city planners are implementing.
The only thing theoretical is whether you can read Agenda 21 and understand it.
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| | | 527 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 20:44
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The only thing theoretical is whether you can read Agenda 21 and understand it.
your hubris entertains me. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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| | | 529 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 09:44
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I'd never heard of ICLIE before, and I read a fair bit on urban planning. Now I think I'll donate! Thanks Baldwin.
I love stumbling on hidden, insidious evil that might just save the human race.
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| | | 530 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 11:48
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I know about lots of global dictatorship you'll just love. Stay tuned.
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| | | 531 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 12:15
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I'll add it to the very long list of things that you have requested we stay tuned for over the last decade, none of which have yet to come true.
At some point you have to get something right, just by pure chance.
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| | | 532 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 12:57
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You are sooo transparent, Tree.
non sequitur.
I know about lots of global dictatorship you'll just love. Stay tuned.
there you go. back on point with you telling the rest of us about your gigantic brain and how much you know, and how dumb we are.
I'll add it to the very long list of things that you have requested we stay tuned for over the last decade, none of which have yet to come true.
At some point you have to get something right, just by pure chance.
i've been saying for years that sooner or later that the Infinite monkey theorem will come into play with one of Baldwin's zany beliefs on something he knows better than the rest of us.
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| | | 533 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 13:24
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Let's officially call this the 'lunacy check' phenomenon where:
1) biliruben first calls me a dangerous lunatic for believing this crazy idea could even possibly be contained in this here time continuum...
2) biliruben after ignoring years of links proving my point suddenly realizes the lunatic idea is not only true but that he likes that lunatic idea so much he'd cut a check in support of it if he could.
Kinda reminds me of death panels.
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| | | 534 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 15:58
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#524 I'm guessing you've never been to Las Vegas, at least in the past 4 years since the city council document you posted was passed.
Over the past 4 years I have spent roughly 25 nights in the Las Vegas area, did a job within the city limits in the past year, visited two manufacturers(Polar Shades and Blynco)I buy from, and played about 15 rounds of golf, from Siena in the Summerlin area to Tuscany off of Lake Mead Blvd on opposite sides of the metro.
So don't tell me how 58 golf courses where built way back when. Try doing what you want with your poperty NOW if it doesn't have mixed use high density anti-car anti-sprawl characteristics the UN/ICLIE is insisting on
What an incredible display of ignorance. Tuscany, actually in suburban Henderson opened in 2003, is typical of many of the golf communites tied to high end real estate speculation in the past decade. Click on the new homes available in Tuscany Village for an eye-opening example of failure based on pro-car, pro-sprawl speculation. How about the Verona 1365 model for $129,900? It costs more than that to build the house!
As for doing what you want with your property now, I present my client, AHC of Las Vegas. I have done AHC facilities in Utah(4), Arizona(3), Idaho(1), Colorado(1), New Mexico(1) and Las Vegas earlier this year. They buy the property, jump through all the zoning, licensing, and regulatory hoops, build the facility and open it. Different states and municipalities have different hoops, but Dave and Judy indicated the LV facility was fairly easy to navigate. UN/ICLIE insistence were in no way impediments to what they could do with their property; they weren't in play in any way. They won't even consider expanding into California because of the draconian state regulations, and any more New Mexico facilities are out as well. Can you provide an example of someone not being able to do what they want with their property in Las Vegas because it doesn't have mixed use high density anti-car anti-sprawl characteristics?
Master Plan 2020 has some elements of ICLIE recommendations as part its mandate. Many of these elements make perfect sense for a metro like Vegas and are being considered in municipalities across the country because they are indicative of responsible planning, and have zip to do with UN control. Non-ICLIE member and bastion of conservatism, Salt Lake suburb Sandy City is adopting a master plan, not because of UN insistence, because level-headed conservatives realize that unchecked sprawl and boulevard communities are limited in a world with dwindling resources and dwindling property available to expand.
You appear to believe that your 'freedoms" will somehow be affected if there are communities which provide situations where people can live, shop, recreate and have access to public transportation all within walking distance. You still have the freedom to live in your single family home, drive your car 5 miles to get a gallon of milk, and sit in gridlock traffic twice a day if you commute from the suburbs to the city. Why would you deny the freedoms of those people who don't want that lifestyle, based on a hysterical paranoia of UN control?
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| | | 535 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 16:28
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Watch the reaction of the Delphi Technique facilitator in the link I provided in the Antelope Valley thread, when the audience member said she deliberately moved there for the single home, the yard, the suburban roominess.
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| | | 536 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 16:31
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Why exactly would LV even care about sprawl? It's a barren desert. Sprawlers should be given a medal for greening the desert.
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| | | 537 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 17:48
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Why would you deny the freedoms of those people who don't want that lifestyle
If it was as simple as just letting all the communitarian trolls allow themselves to be stacked and packed, I would be all for it. More room for me.
But they won't stop at that.
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| | | 538 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 18:05
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Sprawlers should be given a medal for greening the desert.
As if all that green comes from the sweat of their brow.
Water diverted for lawns makes less water available elsewhere (for crops, for instance).
Sorry you can't see that such things as lawns in the desert have social costs you haven't accounted for.
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| | | 539 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 19:38
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Xeriscaping solves that problem and is all the rage.
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| | | 540 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 19:51
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They are following what is called Master Plan 2020.
There is nothing theoretical about Agenda 21.
Watch the reaction of the Delphi Technique facilitator...
Xeriscaping solves that problem
Baldwin's posts are becoming more and more like an episode of Lost with each passing day.
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| | | 541 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 20:00
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It's all in the eye of the beholder.
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| | | 542 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 00:44
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I noticed you completely ignored my question:
Can you provide an example of someone not being able to do what they want with their property in Las Vegas because it doesn't have mixed use high density anti-car anti-sprawl characteristics?
Thyen in your avoidance, you ask a question and comment of your own:
Why exactly would LV even care about sprawl? Why exactly would LV even care about sprawl? It's a barren desert. Sprawlers should be given a medal for greening the desert.
To me, this is an admission of fraud. You have no clue about Las Vegas an no desire to educate yourself. The city council may have passed some items consistent with ICLIE recommendations, but they abandoned them and succumbed to every fly-by-night developer who convinced them that Vegas didn't need housing for the thousands of maids, dishwashers, buffet preps and janitors for the multitude of of casino/mini-cities spread throughout the valley and public transportation to get them there. No, what they needed was another upscale golf course community on the outskirts of the desert, resulting in upscale ghost towns, the highest foreclosure rates in the country, and no water left to clean those dirty buffet dishes. It makes for some affordable golf on some fabulous courses, since they have to heavily discount the green fees to attract players. Clark County residents pay virtually nothing.
About the only positive development I've seen in Las Vegas was turning two blocks of Fremont Street into a pedestrian mall with a lazer show canopy which has helped revitalize the downtown area that had become run down embarrassment compared to the glitzy Strip.
ICLIE didn't get what they wanted in Las Vegas.
I'm off in the morning to Mesquite, about 90 miles north of Vegas on the Nevada/Arizona border. My buddies and I are playing a course that used to be $150 a round for 40 bucks. Again, no UN, no ICLIE, just wild-eyed over development trying to hang on by catering to hacks like me.
link
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| | | 543 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 05:10
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Yeah, I read Las Vegas' entire 90+ page PDF planning paper because I'm the one with no desire to educate myself about it.
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| | | 544 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 09:01
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You would have better educated yourself by reading the intro and overview then finding evidence to back your claims of UN control and oppressive implementations that have destroyed the freedoms of private property owners.
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| | | 545 | Boldwin
ID: 58112185 Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 09:24
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You know where the devil is. In the details.
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| | | 546 | Boldwin
ID: 58112185 Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 11:24
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For one thing 'smart code' exacerbated the bubble in LV.
Tell me developers aren't impacted by being in the most overpriced market around.
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| | | 547 | Boldwin
ID: 58112185 Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 12:05
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Then again this study considers LV less 'smart growth' restrictive than say California and lists it as a less restrictive environment [not withstanding that there are explicit 'smart code' elements in LV plans as I demonstrated].
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| | | 548 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 12:08
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Now we're at the point where black = white.
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| | | 549 | Boldwin
ID: 58112185 Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 12:10
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What can I say. One study considers it restrictive. One considers it less so than others. You want me to ignore studies or cherry pick them?
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| | | 551 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Thu, Dec 22, 2011, 13:10
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not for those who would rather see this entire country fail than see Obama be credited with success.
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| | | 552 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Dec 22, 2011, 15:01
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Well, yeah, there is that. The GOP will continue to blame Obama for the economy (including jobs) until they can't deny that there is a recovery and then suddenly Obama will have had nothing to do with it--the economy will have picked up despite Obama, in fact.
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| | | 553 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 13:46
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Krauthammer has the last word on the Keystone Pipeline. There is no liberal counter to this.1) Global warming from the extraction of the Alberta tar sands? Canada will extract the oil anyway. If it doesn't go to us, it will go to China. Net effect on the climate if we don't take that oil? Zero.
2) Danger to a major aquifer, which the pipeline traverses? It is already crisscrossed by 25,000 miles of pipeline, enough to circle the Earth.
3) Moreover, the State Department had subjected Keystone to three years of review - the most exhaustive study of any oil pipeline in U.S. history - and twice concluded in voluminous studies that there would be no significant environmental harm. Transcript
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| | | 554 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 14:16
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What a load of hooey. Sorry, but your willingness to be led down false roads by your conservative media is a given at this point.
Here are three things you obviously didn't consider:
-you know that the point of the project was to get the oil to the US refineries in the Gulf, yes? There is no indication that the oil won't be going there anyway, via standard methods.
-the pipeline was to have 700,000 barrels a day. This is a major undertaking no matter how many pipelines there are. Nebraska (no liberal weenies there) were very strongly opposed to the pipeline from the very start because of the Sand Hills problem.
-if you want to take the State Department's word, you should note that they believe the project to generate approximately 1/4 of the jobs that Trans-Canada claimed it would, for a two year period only.
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| | | 555 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 15:53
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There is no indication that the oil won't be going there anyway, via standard methods.
Natural gas trucks? Skyhooks? Tankers thru the arctic ocean?
The pipeline needs to be built.
The pipeline will be built.
The only question is whether or not Obama gets to keep collecting competing campaign contributions from unions anxious to build and enviros hoping to kill the future. If he can delay the decision he gets to ride the fence all election season playing both sides off against each other for cash and not disappointing either.
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| | | 556 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 16:34
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Well, no, that's not the only question. That's of course YOUR only question -- but then, it usually IS your only question.
Getting reasonable assurances that drinking water for two millions Americans won't be contaminated by a highly corrosive material (tar sands oil is much more corrosive than conventional oil) being pumped at about 160 degrees Fahrenheit sure seems like a valid concern that needs to be looked at, and (as usual) there are conflicting environmental studies, from the people primarily interested in protecting the environment, and the people primarily interested in profiting from the pipeline.
I'm even generally in favor of the concept of someone building the pipeline; if there isn't a reasonably compelling reason to oppose it. In an ideal world, here's what would happen:
1. The pipeline would be built.
2. Trans-Canada and their partners will be held liable for 100% of damages from any spills. That includes personal liability for the people in charge of the project. The public should never have to pay one dime for cleanup as a result of this private enterprise.
After that, if it's profitable, and people voluntarily want to sell their land to let someone build a pipeline, no problem on my end.
Of course, what always happens in these situations is that the profits are capitalist, but the risks of spills and cleanup costs are all socialized. Coupled with the fact that this pipeline is actually likely to lead to 20 cent per gallon gas price INCREASES in the Midwest*, this makes it a terrible financial deal for me on two different fronts.
Leave the If you can explain to me in purely economic terms why we should be forced by state action to foot one cent of the bill (and this includes assuming economic risks of spill cleanups) for Canadian oil companies moving their product through American territory to sell it to other countries through the Gulf of Mexico, which will not coincidentally raise prices at my gas pumps as well as indirectly raise food prices due to increased food costs for farmers, I'm all ears.
*: http://www.startribune.com/opinion/otherviews/117832183.html
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| | | 557 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 18:46
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The GOP are the real losers in the pipeline issue--they forced Obama into making a decision and he said "no." They shouldn't have tried to force his hand for purely partisan reasons.
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| | | 558 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 11:28
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2. Trans-Canada and their partners will be held liable for 100% of damages from any spills. That includes personal liability for the people in charge of the project. The public should never have to pay one dime for cleanup as a result of this private enterprise.
Question do you feel that the farmers of the mid west should be held accountable to polluting the gulf by over fertilizing there fields? The point is that the whole argument is silly the people complaining about there water being tainted when it is already tainted by there own actions and if they were smart they would be in favor of the pipeline so then they would have someone to blame for there own errors.
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| | | 559 | DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 12:15
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Yes, of course I do think they should. Not that it makes a huge difference, but PARTICULARLY so because they have profited from it.
If I take a crap on your lawn, I would think that I should be liable for cleaning it up, not you. Why should the business owner, whether it be the farmer or the pipeline, be allowed to take a crap on other people's property and not have to pay to clean it up? Why should they be allowed to keep all of the profits from taking a crap on my lawn and stick me with the bill for cleaning it up?
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| | | 561 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 14:58
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Though in this situation it is more like you have already taken a crap in my lawn and profited from it so now it is my turn.
my point is not that the pipeline should not pay for it but that people complaining need to realize a) they have already polluted/wasted their aquifer and b) have made a mess of everyone else down stream.
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| | | 562 | DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 15:09
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Sure? I don't even necessarily disagree with that to a large extent (well, I sort of do as far as part A, though it's a matter of degrees, and really not worth getting into), but in principle, yes.
It's much more difficult to get compensation from 10,000 farmers each contributing 0.01% of the pollution compared to one oil company doing 100% of the pollution, of course.
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| | | 563 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 15:22
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The Sand Hills are not only over a huge, huge aquifer, but is largely undeveloped in many of the areas through which the pipeline was passed.
While I'm not unmindful of your argument, it does sound a like like "you've got some litter around here, so you shouldn't mind a refinery next door."
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| | | 564 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 16:09
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| | | 565 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 16:36
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For an idiot to slam someone else as stupid, is actually quite humorous.
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| | | 566 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 17:05
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Particularly when Obama was willing to push it through after the election--clearly he was trying to work through the environmental concerns. In fact it appears that, working with Nebraska, Obama got Trans Canada to agree to find ways through NE without going through Sand Hills.
"kills 20 to 50 thousand jobs"
Gingrich is wrong on virtually all the "facts" he throws up.
I'll admit--red meat conservatives more interested in fables than facts are really enjoying him right now.
Hope he gets the nomination. A public spanking of Gingrich and his supporters, over a period of months, will be cathartic for this country.
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| | | 567 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 18:21
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20,000 to 50,000 jobs???? Were in the sam hell does THAT fabruicated numeric originate? I've read estimates ranging from 1500 to 5,000 jobs and the vast majority of those temporary. Like the Alaskan pipeline, once built, the jobs are gone. Now, how many trucking/river barge jobs get lost, moving the oil via pipeline vs tanker trucks and barges?
Why I refer to Newt as an idiot:
Any man who attempts to hang another for cheating on his spouse, while cheating on their own spouse, then cheats again and THEN claims the moral high ground...is a no holds barred fkn idiot.
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| | | 568 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 18:26
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Trans Canada projected 20,000 themselves--and obviously they were going to go with a high number to make their project more attractive.
The State Department's analysis of TC's own application, however, came up with 5000-7000 total, almost all of which were temporary jobs.
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| | | 572 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 12:01
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This looks to be the argument that those not looking for work are excluded from the unemployment figures, yes? I'm not exactly sure that this brings anything new to the argument, except that the author is making an analysis based upon numbers we know are tentative (that is, subject to revision up or down, as all the unemployment numbers are).
He would make a stronger case (though admittedly with the same older argument) he he would examine revised data rather than the tentative data.
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| | | 573 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 14:04
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| | | 574 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 14:15
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Thanks.
From the BLS report as an fyi:
After accounting for the annual adjustments to the population controls, the employment-population ratio (58.5 percent) rose in January, while the civilian labor force participation rate held at 63.7 percent. (See table A-1. For additional information about the effects of the population adjustments, see table C.)
This doesn't really add much to the ongoing discussion (which states a very slow, but steady, turnaround). But the previous numbers, after revision, actually look better than they were previously posted.
Here's the thing: At this rate we have many months before we reach the employment levels at the start of the recession. It isn't clear to me when we will get there but, more importantly, is that our goal?
I would hope that our experience with this recession would call into question the things we measure as success (a heavy consumption-oriented economy with an emphasis on home ownership as wealth-building).
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| | | 576 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 17:45
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I would hope that our experience with this recession would call into question the things we measure as success (a heavy consumption-oriented economy with an emphasis on home ownership as wealth-building).
valid point that is often just ignored, what I would add to this is that economies should be modeled to maximize benefits in average systems not in above-average systems.
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| | | 577 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 05:25
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re 571:
That analysis is wrong.
With the 2010 population controls, the "not in labor force" appeared to have increased by 1.2 million in January, and the working age population jumped 1.7 million. That didn't happen last month; the numbers changed because of the new population estimate. This does suggests there are 1.2 million more people out of the labor force than we originally thought, but that is because the working age population is larger than previously estimated.
As the BLS points out, without the population change the "not in labor force" actually declined.
Be careful who you read.
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| | | 578 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 08:35
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I don't think it's that bad. If Abbott and Costello were still around, they would explain it like this:
COSTELLO: I want to talk about the unemployment rate in America. ABBOTT: Good Subject. Terrible Times. It’s 8.3%. COSTELLO: That many people are out of work? ABBOTT: No, that’s 16%. COSTELLO: You just said 8.3%. ABBOTT: 8.3% Unemployed. COSTELLO: Right 8.3% out of work. ABBOTT: No, that’s 16%. COSTELLO: Okay, so it’s 16% unemployed. ABBOTT: No, that’s 8.3%… COSTELLO: WAIT A MINUTE. Is it 8.3% or 16%? ABBOTT: 8.3% are unemployed. 16% are out of work. COSTELLO: IF you are out of work you are unemployed. ABBOTT: No, you can’t count the "Out of Work" as the unemployed. You have to look for work to be unemployed. COSTELLO: BUT THEY ARE OUT OF WORK!!! ABBOTT: No, you miss my point. COSTELLO: What point? ABBOTT: Someone who doesn’t look for work, can’t be counted with those who look for work. It wouldn’t be fair. COSTELLO: To who? ABBOTT: The unemployed. COSTELLO: But they are ALL out of work. ABBOTT: No, the unemployed are actively looking for work… Those who are out of work stopped looking. They gave up and if you give up, you are no longer in the ranks of the unemployed. COSTELLO: So if you’re off the unemployment rolls, that would count as less unemployment? ABBOTT: Unemployment would go down. Absolutely! COSTELLO: The unemployment just goes down because you don’t look for work? ABBOTT: Absolutely it goes down. That’s how you get to 8.3%. Otherwise it would be 16%. You don’t want to read about 16% unemployment do ya? COSTELLO: That would be frightening. ABBOTT: Absolutely. COSTELLO: Wait, I got a question for you. That means there are two ways to bring down the unemployment number? ABBOTT: Two ways is correct. COSTELLO: Unemployment can go down if someone gets a job? ABBOTT: Correct. COSTELLO: And unemployment can also go down if you stop looking for a job? ABBOTT: Bingo. COSTELLO: So there are two ways to bring unemployment down, and the easier of the two is to just stop looking for work. ABBOTT: Now you’re thinking like an economist. COSTELLO: I don’t even know what the hell I just said!
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| | | 579 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 54140511 Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 12:40
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578-priceless
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| | | 580 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 08:31
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That's pretty funny. And just about right.
But the thing is, this is one of the first job reports in a long time where unemployment going down was due to people getting jobs, not stopping looking. Saying otherwise is simply wrong.
And that's reason for optimism, not comedy.
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| | | 581 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 09:12
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one of the problems in this country right now is the hope of failure.
over the past few years, the Right has hoped for failure on Obama- and left-leaning policies. to me, that's hoping for failure for this country, and that's sad.
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| | | 582 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 10:08
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I recently read an article that stated that the recovery will be in full force when the unemployment rate takes a couple ticks up before going back down, signaling the reentry of those who had previously given up looking for work. I don't think that time is too far away, but I am sure that if and when it happens, the same people who have been harping on the number of people who have given up looking for work not being counted in unemployment figures will be dead silent.
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| | | 585 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 13:39
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This was a predetermined outcome. No president has ever been re-elected with an unemployment number above 8.
Drive job seekers away in discouragement. Make the final readjustment to this figure after the election. This was predictable and Rush did in fact predict this three different times. U6 doesn't line up with this figure. The comparison of total number of employees now and at Obama's inauguration don't indicate recovery.
If people actually feel this number lines up with the economy they are experiencing, I'd be surprised.
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| | | 586 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 13:48
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Ah, Boldwin comes out as a "unemployment number-truther." Nice.
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| | | 587 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 14:03
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RedState destroys today's number.
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| | | 588 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 14:08
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"However, in order for this to make sense, we would need to see a relatively long-term trend in growth of part-time jobs."
Actually, we don't, which is where the cherry picker goes off the rails.
If by "destroys" you mean "consistently maintains his sneer" then you've found your site.
I'm sorry that some good economic news continues to drive people to write such things.
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| | | 589 | Tree
ID: 53555306 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 14:14
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there is a segment of the population that hate Obama so much, they would love to see this country fall so they could say "told ya so!"
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| | | 590 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 15:01
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MarketWatch destroys RedState article
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — A lot of people — some of them very smart — are saying something false about today’s jobs report: That the unemployment rate fell only because lots of part-time jobs were created.
I’ve heard it on Bloomberg News, I’ve heard it from John Silvia, chief economist for Wells Fargo. I’ve heard it from Rob Shapiro, who was an economic adviser to Bill Clinton. And I’ve heard it from many readers of this site. Not to mention that fountain of misinformation, Zero Hedge .
That’s just not so.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of people with full-time jobs increased by 838,000 in September to 115.2 million, while the number of people with part-time jobs declined by 26,000 to 27.7 million.
In other words: All of the gains in employment were due to full-time jobs.
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| | | 591 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 15:07
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Those numbers look correct to me, I am guessing the point of the article though misguided is that most employment came from sharp increase in part-time works, maybe all the voter register people.
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| | | 592 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 17:49
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This all made sense because there was an unprecedented shrinkage of the labor force – a symptom of a permanently lethargic economy. Paradoxically, this led to a steady decline in the unemployment rate as the universe of the job market shrunk. It’s not that the BLS was purposely making Obama look better. You just needed to look beyond the U3 number to understand how the unemployment rate dropped. So if you actually believe that even with population growth there are less people today who want a job than than when Obama came into office, you are then free to believe these numbers.
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| | | 593 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 17:51
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So if you can make people despondent enuff to drop out of the labor market you can trumpet great stats. [assuming you think 7.8 unemployment is great]
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| | | 594 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 17:53
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It is better than it was, yes. There are more people working now than when Obama took office. And that's good news, despite your feelings toward Obama.
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| | | 596 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 19:40
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And he apparently thinks he can get away with it. Stick that in yer prediction thread.
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| | | 597 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 19:40
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Ha! Nice. Please keep it up.
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| | | 598 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 20:06
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Chris Matthews twists and twists but can't budge Jack Welch's arm.
No way."it's not funny, Jack," Matthews said. "You're talking about the President of the United States playing with the Bureau of Labor Statistics' numbers. This is Nixon stuff."
"Chris, don't lose it now," said Welch.
"Jack, do you want to take back the charge that there was corruption here," Matthews asked. Welch stood by the charge.
"They've been calling Mitt Romney a liar -- a falsehood -- for the last 48 hours after the debate," Welch replied. He claimed that he had predicted that the unemployment figure would be below 8 percent one month before the election in order to help Obama win reelection.
"I've reviewed 14 businesses this week," said Welch. "I've seen everybody with a third quarter equal to or weaker than the first quarter. In order to get 873,000 new jobs, you would have to have a GDP going at 4 to 5 percent. The second quarter was downgraded from 1.7 to 1.3. The third quarter is not going to be very strong. It just defies the imagination to have a surge larger than any surge since 1983 a month before the election. I leave it to you to do all the analysis."
"Do you believe the BLS, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, lacks integrity," Matthews asked.
"You don't think it's coincidental that we've got the biggest surge since 1983 in the jobs surge? Common, Chris," Welch asked. "6 percent improvement in two months? 6 percent improvement? The numbers don't jibe."
"These numbers defy logic," Welch said. "On the face of it, we don't have this GDP. I love you, but you can't get there." And this was the crony capitalist who played Obama like a flute early on, practically getting a tax-free corporate ride on Obama incentives customized to favor his corporate interests.
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| | | 599 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 22:24
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Forgot this one: "I have no evidence of corruption, none whatsoever."
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| | | 600 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 22:42
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Math is haaard, huh, PD? Just do the math Jack sets out. You'll see how impossible that number is.
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| | | 601 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 22:46
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Even Jack himself says he has no proof. The quote in #599 is his own words.
Yet you think you can prove corruption using Jack as evidence? The rules of evidence seem not to apply to you, is that right?
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| | | 602 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 22:47
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It isn't that math is hard for me. It is that proof is hard for you.
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| | | 603 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 23:12
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It's hard to imagine that people would hate America so much that any scrap of good news is booed. But it's getting easier to imagine it every day.
Sorry your apocalypse isn't coming true. Inventing a new reality isn't a solution for you though.
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| | | 604 | Razor
ID: 4795860 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 01:58
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There are two lessons here:
1) Never listen to the anti-American loons who are seemingly upset and disturbed when positive news comes out about America's progress.
2) Never take a single economic indicator and use it as proof of anything. There is too much error in a single number. The important thing is the trend.
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| | | 606 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 02:30
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Only the GOP, is gonna get bent when people find jobs.
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| | | 607 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 02:44
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I wish I was wrong but people aren't gonna get jobs in big enuff numbers. Europe is about to crash and drop the other shoe. Whoever wins the election is gonna get clobbered over the deeper depression to come. I expect Romney to win and the EU debacle will be very nearly the final nail in capitalism's coffin. The anti-free market crowd will see to cementing that PR interpretation. I'm not guaranteeing this scenario. I'm not that good. But that's what I suspect will happen.
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| | | 608 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 04:42
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While the 0.4% perfectly unmanipulated and totally coincidental swing in the unemployment rate in an Obama favorable direction one month before the election came at a prime time moment for the market, one hour ahead of the open, setting the market mood for the rest of the day (which despite all best efforts still closed red, valiant efforts by Simon Potter and the FRBNY's direct pipe to Citadel notwithstanding), there was one other, far more important data point released by the government's department of agriculture, sufficiently late after the market close to impact no risk assets. That data point of course was foodstamps ...
... since December 2007, or the start of the Great Depression ver 2.0, the number of jobs lost is 4.5 million, while those added to foodstamps and disability rolls, has increased by a unprecedented 21 million. - Zerohedge, Tyler Durden Happy times are here again, the skies are blue and clear again.
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| | | 609 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 09:34
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It was probably all the costly campaigns and related hiring that caused the improvement.
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| | | 610 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 10:07
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Tyler Durden's a trained monkey.
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| | | 611 | Boldwin
ID: 4923615 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 18:52
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BTW that ridiculous impossible unemployment figure was calculated by those unpartisan folks at the BLS...
You remember the wonderful folks at the Bureau of Labor who tried to blackmail Boeing's NC plant into knuckling under to liberal pressure...
Who along with the EPA have some of the most partisan employees in the permanent government and who include Obama bundlers in their staff.
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| | | 612 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 18:57
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No, that would have been the NC plant Boeing built, in an effort to circumvent a contractual agreement they already had in place, with Washington State workers.
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| | | 613 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 19:32
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It was the bureau of labor and it was leftwing partisan as hell. Naturally you supported that scandal.
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| | | 614 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 19:37
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NO B, I support factual premises. Boeing built that NC plant, to work around the labor contract they had with Washington State workers. I know you dislike facts and honesty and integrity...but thats too bad. I'm going to employ them anyway.
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| | | 615 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 19:50
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You don't understand. I support creative ways to avoid out of control union power. I know all about these facts you think you have monopoly ownership over.
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| | | 616 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 19:51
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A contract is a contract. They were obligated I do understand...you would screw over the worker in heartbeat, if it meant a 1 /1000% better ROI for the NYC investor.
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| | | 617 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 19:57
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When thugs pin you down, escape.
I don't owe any loyalty to elitists earning 10-40 times what the average man earns. Those fat cat workers.
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| | | 618 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 19:59
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have you looked up the definition of "hypocrite" lately?
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| | | 619 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 20:04
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Since you think infinite spending in government is desirable it's no wonder you support infinite union demands. No way an employer should be allowed to walk away when the demands get insane, huh?
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| | | 620 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 20:24
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Well, I'm not a union guy, but when I'm flying on a Boeing jet, I'm thinking I want the guy who tightens the bolts making just as much or more than the guy in the office signing the purchase order for those bolts.
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| | | 621 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 20:55
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I just read about what should be a 4 cent pin on a Boeing jet that costs them $71. I'd like to see things get sane there and expenses get realistic all the way around.
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| | | 622 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 21:48
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Boeing signed the labor contract Boldwin. Whether you like it or not, really doesnt mean diddly sh*t.
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| | | 623 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 00:01
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Then let them obey the terms of their contract in Washington with whatever workers remain in Washington, and the new terms in the new contract with the new workers in NC as well.
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| | | 624 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 00:14
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The NC plant, was built to cheat the Washington workers. The plane that Boeing wanted to build in NC, they were contracted to build in Washington.
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| | | 625 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 06:27
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You can prove to me that they signed a promise in contract form to produce x number of planes in Washington? I don't believe it. Prove it.
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| | | 626 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 06:38
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I'll even do the research for you:The plant was a source of political controversy after the National Labor Relations Board brought a complaint against the aircraft manufacturer alleging the nonunion South Carolina plant was built in retaliation for past union strikes in Washington state.
The complaint was dropped late last year after the Machinists Union approved a contract extension and Boeing promised to build a new version of the 787 in Washington. From this we learn that the promise to build came after a contract extention that was extorted out of Boeing by a pack of thugs consisting of a company breaking Obama Bureau of Labor and a strike-waaaaay-too-often union.
Both terrible terrible things for America and American competitiveness.
The next step will be to build them in India or somewhere else beyond the reach of Obama if you keep abusing Boeing so much.
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| | | 627 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 06:50
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This would be the NLRB that is composed of Obama radicals so radical Obama can't get them appointed without cutting congress out of the process. Half are recess appointments.
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| | | 628 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 09:02
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This Congress, Obama would have trouble getting Goldwater confirmed.
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| | | 629 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 11:43
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I dont have to prove diddly to you, 2 years after the fact. It was there at the time if you gave a damn about the truth vs partisan garbage. We all know, what concerns you the most.
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| | | 630 | Boldwin
ID: 4796714 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 15:15
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These liberals, how many ways can they drive business out of this country?
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| | | 631 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 15:23
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Remember the Clinton administration? I didn't think so...
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| | | 632 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Oct 08, 2012, 11:10
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I don't know if Boeing had a contract or not with Unions in Washington but it doesn't change the fact that that the unions are making them uncompetitive, just ask AirBus who opened a plant in Alabama.
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| | | 633 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Oct 08, 2012, 11:12
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Safe to say that is true--in many cases.
But I also think that unions have become a boogeyman for the Right, being blamed for almost everything wrong under the sun. Also the "solution" (to get rid of all unions) is simply not a good response at all.
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| | | 634 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Mon, Oct 08, 2012, 11:47
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I'll let you in on a little secret, living in Seattle with a (conservative) aeronautical engineer as a father who has worked with them for the last 40 years: It ain't the unions that make Boeing uncompetitive, it's the management.
And airbus ain't much better.
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| | | 635 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Mon, Oct 08, 2012, 11:50
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it doesn't change the fact that that the unions are making them uncompetitive, just ask AirBus who opened a plant in Alabama.
I asked Airbus.
The chief executive of Airbus said U.S. rival Boeing has slashed the prices of Boeing 737 Max aircraft in a bid to grab market share from Airbus A320neo, a German newspaper reported on Sunday. "Boeing is desperately trying now to boost the market share of B737 Max. They are very aggressive when it comes to pricing," Fabrice Bregier said in an interview with Welt am Sonntag. For the full year, Boeing will likely announce a higher level of new orders for the whole group than Airbus, he added.
Another element in the Airbus/Boeing competition appears to subsidies.
The WTO has asked the European Union to hand over documents on the funding of the Airbus A350 in a potential sharpening of a transatlantic dispute over aircraft subsidies, a US source familiar with the case said.
It is the first time the funding of Europe's answer to the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, due to make its maiden flight next year, has been drawn directly into the world's largest trade dispute but it remains to be seen how the WTO will act on the data.
"The WTO has ordered the EU to hand over documents on the A350 which it did on Friday," the US source said.
Both sides are pressing for major trade sanctions after the Geneva-based WTO found that Airbus and US rival Boeing had benefited from billions of dollars of unfair subsidies in a pair of trade complaints now in their ninth year.
Washington has called on Airbus to stop receiving loans from its host European nations -- Britain, France, Germany and Spain -- and argues that the WTO should take loans for the A350 into account when evaluating penalties for earlier support. link
It's not an accurate statement to say Boeing is uncompetitive. ' Boeing Co. said it delivered 149 commercial airplanes in the third quarter of 2012, up 17 percent from the 127 it delivered the same period a year ago. Boeing (NYSE: BA) said it delivered eight 747s in the latest quarter, which compares with none delivered in the third quarter of 2011. In the latest quarter, Boeing delivered 102 737s (100 in the third quarter of 2011), seven 767s (one in 2011), 20 777s (21 in 2011) and 12 787s (one in 2011).
Boeing Co. CEO James McNerney Jr. recieved $18.4 million in pay last year, which was more than Boeing paid in federal taxes, according to a new report by the Institute for Policy Studies. link
And it's hard to feel too upset with Boeing's unions when you take a further look.
Boeing Co. CEO James McNerney Jr. recieved $18.4 million in pay last year, which was more than Boeing paid in federal taxes, according to a new report by the Institute for Policy Studies. link
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| | | 636 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Oct 08, 2012, 12:57
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I should have stated, ask airbus why they put there plant in mobile, or ask Hyundai in Montgomery, or BMW in SC. Maybe Boeing is just trying to keep up with trends.
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| | | 637 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Oct 08, 2012, 13:44
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It was widely available at the time boikin...Boeing built n SC, to avoid the contract they had with the Washington State workers.
Why 2 years later, we are letting Boldwin bring this issue up as if it were new, is beyond me.
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| | | 639 | Seattle Zen
ID: 47630913 Thu, Nov 01, 2012, 18:51
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LOL! Who is to blame for that good news, Mitt?
I'll take a stab, Soros...?
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| | | 640 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 11:21
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Interesting that the official number went up to 7.9%, though I have to say the adjusted rate for Gallup pole is either wrong or they left something out because there calculation method is completely over simplified.
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| | | 641 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 12:11
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Yeah, Gallop's methodology is fairly new, and isn't a good predictor of the official number at this point.
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| | | 642 | Boldwin
ID: 31427247 Fri, May 24, 2013, 09:57
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| | | 643 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, May 24, 2013, 10:09
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I believe Obama's current numbers look mostly like W's, around 7.5 unemployment and around 2.5 million in "job gain".
But if a year-old graph from when America's financial outlook was a bit more bleak is what it takes to get you through the day, so be it.
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| | | 644 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, May 24, 2013, 10:12
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To be honest I'm kind of surprised by the claim that Bush had a positive jobs number over his 8 years.
But who am I to question a graphic that someone found someplace on the internet - or the person who would would for some reason believe the year old economic figures it touts are still accurate or relevant?
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| | | 645 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Fri, May 24, 2013, 10:28
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interesting if the numbers actually mean anything Carter produced a lot of jobs, who would have guessed based on how they talk about his presidency.
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| | | 646 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Fri, May 24, 2013, 11:03
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Take out the first 6 months while in catastrophic free-fall from Bush. Things look a lot different.
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| | | 647 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, May 24, 2013, 11:21
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Carter's problem was never jobs, but stagflation.
The Right likes to use these slice and dice snapshots to, essentially, reinforce what they already "know." But, like talking about the economy and federal budget, there seems to be no effort made at noting that a new President is still under the budget from the last guy (and, the next guy will have a budget in place for the first ten months already of his term).
So Bush gets credit for Clinton's last budget year, and dumps the last year of the effects of his own budget policies onto Obama. What a deal!
George W. Bush: A job numbers taker.
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| | | 648 | slug
ID: 274262411 Fri, May 24, 2013, 12:26
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Using the same BLS data: Obama thru Apr'13 is +1.426M
Looking Sept to Sept for each, the only significant number changes are to our last 2 presidents. Bush from +4.375M to +1.964M Obama from +1.426M to +4.769M
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| | | 649 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Fri, May 24, 2013, 12:44
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It is also interesting that there is no relationship between unemployment and jobs created not sure why both are included.
Also I am not sure you want to be taking credit for Clinton's last year 2000 while not as bad as 2008 I don't think it was good year.
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| | | 650 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, May 24, 2013, 13:46
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Clinton's last budget went through the end of October 2001.
Bush's last budget went through the end of October 2008.
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| | | 651 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Fri, May 24, 2013, 14:03
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whoops, you are correct, still 2001 not the best year.
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