Forum: pol
Page 3395
Subject: 2010 Mid Terms


  Posted by: Nuclear Gophers - [7115138] Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 17:43

With a big race this Tuesday, thought it would be a good time to get responses on it and the Mid Terms. I see the schoolyard antics were working last night in DC.
 
1Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 17:45
I think if this guy wins or loses by 5 points or less it will be a huge victory for the Republicans.
 
2Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 17:46
Are you talking about the MA special election?
 
3Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 17:50
Yes
 
4Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 18:10
That's actually a special election rather than a mid term, fyi.

I would bet money that the Dems will pull it out. They were a bit complacent, but the Republicans haven't really put up a good candidate, IMO. The fact that the Dems were starting to mail this one in and from that Brown started making it a tight race in the polls was a wake-up call.

There are some interesting other races, however. Harold Ford's decision to become a New York carpetbagger is leaving some bad feelings among Dems, for instance. And I hear Strom Thurmond's son is running for Congress (he's probably a spry 80-year-old).
 
5Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 19:17
Yeah I know its a special election, just thought I would lump it in. Just watched the Ed Show and the progressives are unhappy that OBama isnt going up to campaign. With Health care in the balance you would think he would go up there. (PD-I read your post 3 times so I dont misunderstand what you were posting :) lol)
 
6Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 06:29
Whats the definition of a good republican candidate by a democrat?
 
7Building 7
      ID: 43735169
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 08:05
Someone who is sure to lose the general election.
 
8Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 08:42
I don't think I can come up with a good reason to criticize Scott Brown as a Republican candidate. The worst thing that Coakley seems to be able to come up with is that he's right in line with Washington Republicans. From what I've read that seems true enough, to the extent that he is running specifically in opposition of Coakley's policies, rather than on his own. That's frustrating, but blind opposition is pretty much what the GOP is about these days, and it's what I expect the rest of the 2010 elections to look like on the GOP side.

Thinking back, I'd suggest the Dems looked the same way after they lost the House in Bush's first term (at least with regard to domestic issues) but they began to form a more comprehensive agenda in the runup to the 2004 election. Hopefully we'll see the same from the GOP in the runup to 2012. If you listen to GOP candidates now, what you get are mostly ambiguous general ideals thatt they say our policies need to ahere to, but very little in the way of actual hard policy proposals. I think they know the gains they've made since the election are too fragile to endanger with policy proposals that might backfire on them, so they see partisan opposition as a safer agenda that can capitalize on waning support for Democrats in the near term.

It's the way the system seems to work these days and in my opinion it's highly counter productive.
 
9Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 08:45
By the way, if B7 were correct in post #7, PD would obviously be calling Brown at least a decent candidate, given he seems pretty confident that Coakley will pull it out.
 
10Mith
      ID: 159201318
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 10:23
OK, this is pretty hokey.
"He should stay away and let Martha and I discuss the issues one on one," Brown told the Herald. "The machine is coming out of the woodwork to get her elected. They're bringing in outsiders, and we don't need them."
 
11Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 12:19
The latest Rasmussen poll has Brown/Coakley almost a dead heat.

A Brown victory will likely derail the current healthcare bill, but the current bill may need to be derailed, as it doesn't appear to accomplish what it initially set out to do.
 
12biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 12:30
Anyone who thinks there will be a better bill than this for the good part of generation does not understand the risk averse nature of politicians.

This is it, and this is a stepping stone we can build on for universal coverage.

If it's derailed, costs and the number of uninsured will continue to sky-rocket, and everyone will be so gun-shy we won't get any real relief until I'm old and crippled.
 
13Mith
      ID: 159201318
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 12:49
If Brown wins I assume whatever extra pork is necessary will be added to bring one or both of the ME senators on board.
 
14Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 13:48
If it's derailed, costs and the number of uninsured will continue to sky-rocket, and everyone will be so gun-shy we won't get any real relief until I'm old and crippled.

I'm not as sure we'll see another 1993-2009 period of ignoring the problem, especially if, as you predict, the number of uninsured skyrockets, and costs continue to climb. A lot of Republicans admit the need for health care reform, but are intimidated into opposing anything that looks like a success for Obama.
Call me naive, but I think the possibility exists where a bipartisan bill could emerge even during the last two years of Obama's current term. While Republicans have made some inroads being the party of obstruction, it's not a good longterm strategy, especially with the current system continuing to deteriorate.
 
15biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 14:16
We might get some regs for insurers, such as targeted pre-existing condition or anti-recession legislation, easily sidestepped by loopholes or threats to pull out of certain markets. Nothing comprehensive.

Just a semi-educated prediction.
 
16Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 14:17
Short article from a rather conservative source supporting my post #14.

One of the consequences of having an employer-based health-insurance system is that for a lot of workers those health benefits are really the ties that bind. When changing jobs means changing health plans, you can crimp a lot of labor-market movement.

That's especially true for folks who might want to consider striking out on their own but hold back because the insurance cost could well be unmanageable -- say, if you have a large family -- or coverage could be difficult, if not impossible, to get -- say, if you have pre-existing conditions like diabetes or heart disease, as millions do.

In that context, health-care reform may be the great liberator. If coverage were readily available in a public plan (gasp!) or even some sort of market exchange and if pre-existing conditions were no factor, how many more people would indulge their entrepreneurial spirits? And how much better would that be for the economy? The answer is pretty much speculative, but intuition tells you the impact would be positive.

 
17biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 14:23
I completely agree with that.

In addition, it really hurts our competitiveness internationally, as employers who provide health care have to build in an extra 8-12K annually per employee into the cost of every good or service.

But the current bill is so timid in it's approach, working within the current system employer sponsored plans, that it wouldn't even offer a significant improvement for this problem unless we got a public option.

You think the ultra-conservative Republican in the house and Senate are liable to try and get a more radical plan passed?
 
18Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 14:55
You think the ultra-conservative Republican in the house and Senate are liable to try and get a more radical plan passed?

As it becomes more and more obvious how much more successful health care systems in Australia, Canada and other non-threatening societies are than ours, they may have no choice.

Even now, we stand out as a sore thumb as how not to provide health care. That will become even more evident in the future.
 
19biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Thu, Jan 14, 2010, 15:10
I hope you are right, but I don't think it's very likely.
 
20Mith
      ID: 159201318
      Fri, Jan 15, 2010, 08:57
Pretty good overview of senate seats up for election in 2010 at Wikipedia.
 
21Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Fri, Jan 15, 2010, 09:23
Andrew Sullivan on Scott Brown
His Globe piece is presumably a good way to assess his platform. And it highlights all the bankruptcy of the current conservative establishment. Take a couple of issues. He starts by listing national problems:
Public debt has reached $12 trillion and counting, and Washington politicians want to borrow trillions more.
His solution?
My plan for the economy is simple: an across-the-board tax cut - in the tradition of John F. Kennedy - for families and businesses that will increase investment and lead to immediate new job growth. More tax increases will hurt our recovery. That’s why I have taken a no-new-tax pledge. My opponent will raise taxes.
Does anyone see the contradiction here? Without any tax increases, indeed with more tax cuts, the spending reductions required to reduce the debt will be fantastic: massive cuts in Medicare, Medicaid, and defense. Where does he outline these spending measures? Nowhere. Fiscally, he's as fraudulent as Bush.

More absurdity here:
It’s time to admit that while the $787 billion stimulus had the best of intentions, it failed to create one new job.
Even if you believe that stimuli are wasteful or inefficient, I know of no sane economist who believes that $800 billion did not create one new job.


Then he's in favor of the Massachusetts universal health insurance reform, on which Obama's is based, but for some reason against the one for the country. Why?
But the healthcare bill under discussion in Washington is not good. It will raise taxes and increase spending. If you are a senior on Medicare, it will lead to a half trillion dollars in cuts to your care.
So Brown supports health care exchanges, a mandate, and universal care ... but opposes healthcare exhcanges, a mandate and universal care. He is worried about the debt but actually opposes the proposed cuts in Medicare that can make universal insurance affordable - let alone the cuts necessary to bring us back from the fiscal abyss.

He is, in other words, a parody of the brainless bush Republican, mixed with Romney-like cynicism.
 
22Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Fri, Jan 15, 2010, 09:30
Brown explaining to Neil Cavuto the difference between Romneycare and Obamacare:
Cavuto asked Brown why he'd supported an expansion of state involvement in health care, but he's opposing the same thing now. (As we noted, the Massachusetts health care plan passed by the state legislature and signed by then-Gov. Mitt Romney is similar to the Democratic federal plan in many ways, including the individual mandate to purchase health insurance.)

"No, that's not true, they're two different programs. What we have here is a free-market enterprise where we're providing insurance in various levels to people in Massachusetts," said Brown. "The plans in Washington are a one-size-fits-all plan that's gonna cost almost a trillion-plus dollars, raise taxes, at a time when we don't need it. Why are we subsidizing, why would we pay more, for something we already have? It makes no sense."
 
23Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Fri, Jan 15, 2010, 16:10
Then why are the Democrats voting for him?
 
24Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jan 15, 2010, 16:44
Maybe for the same reason they voted for Obama: Massively hoodwinked?
 
25Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Fri, Jan 15, 2010, 17:09
Then why are the Democrats voting for him?

The question suggests that Dems are deserting en masse to Brown, which isn't the case at all as far as I can tell. The polls are all over the place, the latest, out on the 14th from Pajamas Media, has Brown ahead by 15. On the 12th Blue Mass published a poll with Coakley ahead by 8. On the 10th Mellman group published one with Coakley ahead by 14 and the same day Boston Globe had her ahead by 17.

Leaving out those as statistical outliers, I'll note that of the 1/13 poll of 500 registered voters by Suffolk which had Brown ahead by 4, the Rasmussen poll of 1000 likely voters on the 11th which had Coakley ahead by 2 and the PPP poll of 774 likely voters from he 10th which had Brown ahead by 1, none of them broke down dem vs rep for each candidate, at least in the reports posted at pollster.com.

I'm not so sure "the Democrats are voting for Brown", whatever exactly you mean by that.
 
26Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jan 15, 2010, 17:17
Given that Democrats and Independents far outnumber Republicans in Massachusetts, it is a given that Democrats are indicating their support for Brown in the polling. Even if every Republican were supporting Brown, he wouldn't be getting the numbers he is getting without independent and Democratic support.
 
27Mith
      ID: 159201318
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 01:27
Independets, sure. But look at the poll respondants, the percentage reporting as Dems is usually somewhere in the 30s, with 15 - 20% reporting as Republican. Maybe MA Dems aren't solidly behind Coakley (and a significant number of independants make up the remainder of the support she does have) but I don't think you can look at the poll numbers to effictively display that trend.
 
28Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 08:50
My point that Obama carried the state 62-35. It seems to me that if the race is that closee some democrats are voting for him. But we will find out Tuesday night.
 
29Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 09:04
I don't think you assumption is based on a very solid approach. 62% of MA voters are not Democrats. Again, I would just direct you to the poll numbers.

In the Suffolk poll they have Coakley at 46% to Brown's 50%. 39% of the respondants listed themselves as Dems, 15% Republican and 45% independant. Wouldn't it seem more likely that Coakley has the overwhelming majority of Dem voters and something like a fifth of the independants?
 
30Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 09:09
By the way, the results of these MA senate race polls are so scattershot I don't think you can take any of it very seriously.
 
31Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 09:18
Marc Ambinder on Obama and the MA senate race.
 
32Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 14:05
On that Suffolk University poll
Suffolk Poll University pollster David Paleologos said, "Here's how the race breaks down. Scott Brown wins among men, Martha Coakley among women. Democrats: Coakley. Republicans and Independents: Brown, by a wide, wide margin."


And here's one more surprise. While Brown is beating Coakley head-to-head, 64% of voters we surveyed say Coakley will win the election.

"People don't believe that the rest of the state of Massachusetts will vote for Scott Brown, despite the fact that they personally will vote for Scott Brown," Paleologos said.
Also, in fairness after pointing to Andrew Sullivan's issues with Brown, I should note he's actually been much tougher on Coakley.
 
33Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 14:33
Time will tell
 
34Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 14:39
I just read on the drudge report that "Dem threat: Pass health care with 51 votes." Sounds like somebodies scared.
 
35Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 14:43
I think the threat of health care reform failing is driving the GOTV effort in Mass. 60 is now the new 50, since the GOP has decided to take their ball and go home until next November.
 
36Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 16:21
Dem threat: Pass health care with 51 votes.

I've wanted this from the beginning. Would make Sen. Nelson's extortion meaningless. Heaven forbid we operate a democracy democratically!
 
37Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 17:38
health care reform failing is driving the GOTV effort in Mass

I'm sure that's right and it's obviously the Dems' best hope there. It's also something you can't measure in a poll, especially in a special election.

NG, sorry if it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but what you read on the Drudge Report was a Matt Drudge headline, and it appears you stopped there. Here's the linked story at Bloomberg News, which reported Chris Van Hollen's recent statement that reconciliation remains an option to get the healthcare reform bill passed.

Drudge links hot topic stories to ginned up headlines on his website that very often fail to accurately reflect the premise of the story. Reconciliation has been discussed off and on at various times through this process. Recalling it once again in the face of potentially losing the supermajority sounds a lot less like fear than it does simply discussing legislative tactics.

Thinking about the way the Senate bill developed, I have to wonder whether a supermajority has been a useful tool for the Senate Democrats, anyway. Sullivan (sorry to keep going to him, I don't even read him much these days but he's had a few notable items in the last day or two) posted a letter from a reader from MA who had some insightful things to say about the supermajority and other issues related to this special election:
I'm with you in thinking that Obama is the best thing the Democrats have going for them right now. But I also think that in having the supermajority, they actually undercut him. They don't have to compromise and so they don't try to. Instead, what passes as legislation is a horrid mismash of corporate interests and traditional, not progressive, balms of the Democratic Party. I know this country can do much, much better. And I think Obama needs a less powerful Democratic party to make it happen, like Clinton did.

For all the reasons you cite about Coakley, I'm voting for Brown. But let me add a few more.

I'm a split-the-ballot kind of guy. I don't think the dominance of the political system by one party is ever good for the country. Too much changes too quickly and without the necessary compromises to slow the pace and make it more realistic. We all agree that the GOP is a mess. But we also all agree that we need a stronger GOP. And despite the rhetoric, I can't think of a better candidate to help than Scott Brown. He's not perfect, but if he thinks he can go along with the national GOP and keep the seat in the next election, he's going to be out of a job. In voting for him, I hope he'll moderate that party. And that's what's funny to me about the rush of support he's getting from the Right. If a Republican from Massachusetts isn't a RINO to them, I don't know who is. It also helps that Brown has already voted for a health care plan with a public option. So to someone like Malkin who was ready to toss away a Congressional seat in NY for "purity", I now laugh at their support of Brown

My only hesitation in voting for Brown is how that vote will be spun by the mediots in the Beltway. Let me say emphatically that my vote for Brown isn't a vote against Obama. It's a vote against the Democratic Party, and hacks like Coakley, but also a vote to help moderate the GOP. One more New England Republican is necessary. Of all the places the GOP might find it's path again I hope it's from where it was born.
 
38Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 21:26
The gutter:

 
39Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 00:45
Man, with every new tidbit I come across on these MA candidates, the more I dislike both of them. I doubt there's a grain of integrity between them.
 
40Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 01:09
you can say that about every politician.
 
41Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 07:30
40: I strongly disagree. And I know a few Palin supporters who would disagree also.
 
42Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 13:00
Another reader responds to the letter in post 37:
This is one of the most ignorant things I have read in a long time. The reason it took a year to pass health care, when it had been teed up well before Obama's inauguration, was because Democrats tried to get the GOP onboard. Remember the months and months of wooing Olympia Snowe? Obama's health care conferences? But the GOP decided to simply just vote no, because electorally that was their best bet.

And what your reader shows is that it works; by simply obstructing and voting no, they get people to believe that it was Democrats' fault nothing gets done, and that they should vote for the GOP, so that Dems will have to compromise. Bullshit. That's insane.

And let me remind your reader that the bill the Senate passed, and what appears to be the final bill, is exactly what Bob Dole, Bill Frist and many republicans, who looked at health care in good faith, advocated. No public option, deficit reducing, individual mandate insurance. For the love of God, convince that reader to vote for Coakley.
Sullivan:
I'll try. First off, there's no compromise with the current GOP. They make Gingrich look like Pope John XXIII. If they got back majorities in the Congress, there will be no debt reduction; there will simply be nihilism until they can try to beat Obama in 2012.

Secondly, there's a lie masquerading as analysis going around. And that is that the health insurance bill is some sort of radical idea, fomented by "radical leftists", etc etc. This is propaganda. In fact, the final bill is exactly where a sane compromise is to be found: near-universal coverage; no single payer; no public option; reforms for pre-existing conditions and other injustices; cost control mechanisms; Medicare cuts; deficit reduction. 16 years after the Clintons tried, it's a more moderate bill. It was widely debated in the campaign. It isn't perfect. It needs work. But it's a start.

The blame for the delay lies fundamentally with a GOP that is still intent on putting power before country, and decided the day Obama took office that he was such a threat to their beleaguered brand that they would oppose everything he proposed, demonize him as much as possible, forgo any cooperation, and then try to blame him for the recession, the wars, the unemployment, and the debt he inherited ... while never actually proposing any serious alternative on any of them.


It is a nihilist, populist, primal scream. And if the Massachusetts result is interpreted as a vindication of that strategy, we will have thrown away a very rare constructive moment for targeted government action to tackle the deep problems - healthcare access and cost, too much reliance on carbon energy, an empire bogged down in two quagmires, a debt that will soon threaten this country's currency - in favor of news cycle, tactical Rovian bullshit.

The Dems have been incompetent and petty; the Republicans have been nihilist. The dawdling of the last few weeks is unforgivable. But Obama's attempt to produce reform through the center is the best chance we've now got. The last time I urged a vote for someone I found as dreadful as a candidate as Coakley was John Kerry. Because the alternative was so much worse.

So think of this as 2004. Are you really, really going to give Bush a second term because Kerry is so easily portrayed as an elitist hack? C'mon, Massachusetts Independents. Give the president the chance he needs. I know it sucks. But vote Coakley
 
43Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 16:09
Amazing people still have the gall to associate him with republicans.
 
44Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 21:31
I don't know who does, with regard to modern Republicans, anyway. He certainly doesn't. Of course since you're on record touting the belief it's a party of phoneys on the way to hell in a handbasket anyway, I'm not so sure why you'd take issue with that opinion, B.
 
45Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 22:08
It just offends me that there was a period of time when the Huffingtons and Hitchens and Sullivans were portrayed as republican voices. Deceit offends me. Stupidity succeeding in pulling the wool over people's eyes offends me.

Rotogurupie liberals pretending to be heartfelt saviors of the republican party offend me.

 
46Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 22:18
Is there anything about the opposition that you don't exaggerate?
 
47Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 06:35
Ed Shultz said yesterday that he would cheat to keep brown from winning. May be we should start a thread things that appalled me on MSNBC. He is as bad as Rush on Haiti.
 
48Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 07:00
He called us bastards because that is exactly what we are. Thats hilarious and down right pitiful. Oh well tomorrow will be interesting.
 
49Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 07:32
Rotogurupie liberals pretending to be heartfelt saviors of the republican party offend me.

and i am sure that true Republicans are offended by the wacky religious right's continued attempts to hijack their party.
 
50Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 08:36
Nuclear Gophers

Schultz is a scumbag. For the record, he didn't say it on MSNBC, he said it on his radio show. Here's the clip:



This isn't the first time he's been criticized in this forum before, by the way, see posts 796 - 801 in the most recent Liberal media bias thread.

But lets not go overboard in saying this is as bad as Rush on Haiti. These men are both obnoxious opinionated hateful blowhards, but surely you see the difference between politicizing a catastrophe to not only spit on the political opposition, but also on the tens of thousands of dead and millions more suffering - and characterizing a section of the political opposition as "bastards" who should be "kept out" by any means necessary, including cheating. I promise you I have no interest, whatsoever, in defending this guy, but lets keep it in perspective.

There's another thing that seperates Schultz from Limbaugh, and also from Hannity and Beck and even Malkin: nobody knows who Ed Schultz is. I don't believe anyone regards Ed Schultz as a "prominant" voice on the left. When I posted that clip in the liberal media bias thread in September 2009, that was the first time I'd ever heard of him. He has nothing like the recognition - much less the following - of any of those other people I mentioned. And he certainly does not in any notable way steer liberal public discourse with his rantings - as all of those other people do the conservative discourse.

The political right is sick right now, and as long as moderate conservatives continue to shrug their shoulders and tolerate the crazy people who have comandeered their megaphones, they aren't going to get any better and they aren't going to be able to constructively participate in good government.

I'll never claim that there are no crazies on the left. But I want to see them exposed for the hacks they are and summarily outright rejected for it, or at least banished to the peripherals. So I'm glad you called out Schultz here.

But you have to see the difference between the way a guy like that remains pretty obscure on the left these days and the way someone who might be similar on the right (if not much worse) in Glenn Beck was the fastest rising star in conservative punditry in 2009.
 
51Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 17:58
The question is why Beck is rising and Shultz has no following (though after watching him he does have a progressive following). I think more people in the country dont want any one messing with the constitution. Which the democrats are getting really close to doing. Thats why the race in Mass. is as close as it is. I think the majority of the people, Dem or Rep, dont want the constitution to be messed with.
 
52Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 18:05
How are they "messing with the constitution" NG?
 
53Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 18:20
BTW, I would be careful not to make the mistake in thinking that the Massachusetts election is a reflection of national trends in any way. While Beck et al would like you to think that the closeness of the race is a reaction to the national Democratic policy, the truth is that this is *Massachusetts* where liberalism is where people choose to be, time after time after time. These people not only have "socialized" health care but very much like the program (which is, with very minor changes, exactly the same program passed by the Senate).

It is much more likely that the closeness of the race has more to do with the ambivalence of the voters toward the awful Democratic candidate.
 
54Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 18:37
Nick Silver now gives Brown a 74% chance of winning

Nick is quite good. Looks like the Dems are having a hard time closing this deal.

 
55Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 19:10
Maybe they dont like the socialized health care they have. They dont like something, and I would like to know what that is.
 
56Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 19:19
Polls show that they really like it, actually. We certainly don't have to guess on that point. And the Massachusetts law is far more liberal in one respect: There is an individual mandate that isn't in the Senate bill (but is in the House one).

Ocham's Razor is probably at work here. I don't think we need to insert into this race more than what is there already.
 
57Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 19:21
The question is why Beck is rising and Shultz has no following

If you're suggesting that it's simply a matter of Beck being on the right and Schultz on the left I couldn't disagree more. There is not any shortage of rising influential voices on the political left - and most of them aren't fearmongering crazy people who claim the opposition is the enemy of the state and turn are eager to turn the public against completely innocous or even very positive things to demonize the other side.

Jon Stewart, Markos Moulitsas ("Kos" from The Daily Kos) Ariana Huffington and Andrew Sullivan are all examples of sane growing spheres of influence on the left and all but Kos even reach into the center.

Beck isn't rising faster than Schultz because of any nonsense about Beck supposedly protecting the constitution or whatever it is you meant. It's because whipping up the base into a nonsensical frenzy sells books and TV ratings and there is one hell of a market for opposition-demonizing, culturally divisive, batshit crazy pundits on the political right these days.

You know there are plenty of sane and very respectable voices on the right, but I don't see anyone in a hurry to give Conor Friedersdorf or Reihan Salam a TV show.
 
58Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 19:48
Maybe they dont like the fact that Obama sent more troops into Afghanistan, no public option, or maybe the hope and change they were expecting.
 
59Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 22:32
Maybe they dont like the socialized health care they have. They dont like something... Maybe they dont like the fact that Obama sent more troops into Afghanistan, no public option, or maybe the hope and change they were expecting.

And maybe you are projecting just a little bit...

I think the majority of the people, Dem or Rep, dont want the constitution to be messed with.

In your opinion, NG, what has been the biggest instance of "messing with the constitution" in the past 20 some years, you can even include this health care bill, if you like?

I know my answer, it was GW's Patriot Act and other reactions in the War on Terra - wiretapping/eavesdropping without warrants on US citizens. Didn't stop GW from being reelected.

Is your apostrophe key broken? ;)
 
60Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 05:46
MITH

Anyone who thinks Obama isn't a hardcore Marxist or is willing to vote for him anyway is BS crazy.

 
61Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 05:51
Well I guess I left out the biggest cause...or they are so lazy they haven't looked at the evidence.

Certainly any leftwing pundit these days fits one of those two conditions in #60 is BS crazy which is why 'moonbats' works so well as their moniker.

 
62Mith
      ID: 159201318
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 08:09
Apparently you and I share the same opinion of one another. The differene is that I don't depend on ridiculous leaps and extrapolations to reconcile mine with fact.
 
63Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 09:00
Anyone who thinks Obama isn't a hardcore Marxist or is willing to vote for him anyway is BS crazy.

This explains the tone of much of your posting these days, B. Those who don't share your views on Obama are "bat-shit crazy" (and apparently, deserve your open scorn at times?)
 
64DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 09:54
So, as long as we're complaining about uncivil posts, do 60 and 61 serve any useful purpose other than blindly insulting roughly half the US population?
 
65Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 10:04
I didn't realize this and should probably mention that the seat being filled today is up for election in 2012. No matter who wins, they will have to run again in a year and a half.
 
66J-Bar
      ID: 150131920
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:14
I am wondering when all those truck driving, Nascar loving, tobacco chewing, illiterate, teabag rednecks moved to the East Coast bastion of liberalism called Massachusetts. Did I get all of the adjectives previously posted to describe the movement? Let the spin begin!!!
 
67J-Bar
      ID: 150131920
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:15
I did forget one, racist. Sorry
 
68Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:39
I am wondering when all those truck driving, Nascar loving, tobacco chewing, illiterate, teabag rednecks moved to the East Coast bastion of liberalism called Massachusetts

Probably 2002 when they elected Mitt Romney governor.
 
69Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:44
The Right seems to forget that Massachusetts had a Republican in their State House for 10 straight years. And for 20 of the last 49 years.

They are many many registered independents in Massachusetts. And they tend to cross party lines to vote for moderates when good ones appear on the GOP side.
 
70Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:44
Congratulations scott brown.
 
71Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:46
I meant to add that: The Globe called it for Brown--a well-run campaign. Brown took advantage of every mistake his opponent made.

Now, like Romney, he'll probably forget all about that full-throated support for government required health care now that he'll be working outside the state...
 
72J-Bar
      ID: 150131920
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 22:11
and that he will remember the major budget deficit that exists with the government required health care plan.
 
73Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 22:18
Must be the new math that is giving you such trouble, J-Bar. Both the House and Senate versions will actually reduce the deficit. Unlike George Bush.
 
74Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 22:18
Must be the new math that is giving you such trouble, J-Bar. Both the House and Senate versions will actually reduce the deficit. Unlike George Bush.
 
75J-Bar
      ID: 150131920
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 22:27
I was addressing the MA plan that you were referring too but I guess you switched to the plan before Congress. Please tell me again how many entitlement programs are fiscally sound and we are suppose to take our politicians word for it being budget neutral, "thanks but no thanks". I'll state it again implement the changes to Medicare that will reduce fraud and spending by 500 billion first and show me then we can implement future programs with that big pile of money. Do we really want to get into a deficit spending conversation?
 
76Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 22:47
Do we really want to get into a deficit spending conversation

I think it might be necessary, since the CBO seemingly carries no weight with you. You'll need to come up with a source to replace them.
 
77J-Bar
      ID: 150131920
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 23:01
You're talking like CBO projections are near flawless. shell game
 
78J-Bar
      ID: 150131920
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 23:13
Bush roughly 3 trillion in deficit over 8 yrs
Obama deficit estimates of 4.5 trillion over first term. (per CBO)
 
79Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 05:34
Last night was an enjoyable night. Now after NJ, VA, and now MASS, lets hope the Democrats have gotten the message, that the country doesnt want this healthcare bill, stop the spending, and make jobs the top priority. If they do, it wont be as bad in November. If they ignore the American voters, that first Tuesday evening in November will be so much more enjoyable. I cant wait to see how the White House spin this election (besides saying Coakley was a horrible candidate). Now they are wondering if Brown is a Presidential candidate. Well, the Dems will smear him as bad as they smear everyone eelse they dont like. But go ahead and smear him, that will make him more popular. Oh, the next 2 weeks are going to be interesting.
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 06:58
I am waiting for PD's next dance of triumphalism over the grave of conservatism.

Cannot hear the music but he jerks kinda like a Seinfeld episode.

 
81Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 07:33
Last night was an enjoyable night. Now after NJ, VA, and now MASS, lets hope the Democrats have gotten the message, that the country doesnt want this healthcare bill, stop the spending, and make jobs the top priority. If they do, it wont be as bad in November.

i really, really, really think a lot of Conservatives are over-reaching with the whole Red win in a Blue state, and that it is some kind of vote against Obama.

Rather, i think it was a vote against a truly awful candidate in Coakley, a woman who ran some of the more disgusting, and dishonest, political ads in some time.

Personally, I think it was a much bigger deal in regards to the whole red/blue win in a blue/rad state when a lesbian Democrat was elected mayor of Houston, TX.
 
82Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 08:03
The notion that the MA election is a sign that MA voters (the country no less) rejects healthcare is rightist talking head propaganda. They already have government healthcare in MA and just elected a guy who helped bring it to them!

Perm Dude's triumphalism?

The tea party crowd is dancing around like ballerinas after electing a liberal Republican in MA who supports the government healthcare there.

Consider - the primary difference between the MA system he supports and the Senate one he doesn't like: Romneycare includes a mandate and the senate bill does not.

And there's triumphalism here. It's a sad day, as once again the supposedly politically conscious hard "tea party-Sarah Palin" right chose to abandon their principles and throw their support behind this guy. They didn't reluctantly support him to defeat healthcare, they cheered him, they are behind him.

With all due respect, Nuclear Gophers, you are firmly within that disingenuous hypocrit class. One moment you declare that you could never support Mitt Romney for the healthcare overhaul he brought to MA, but here you are pumping your fist over a guy who supported it all along and still supports it today. Great, you might have killed the left's pathetic attempt to insure peopel who can't get healthcare on their own. I know that makes you feel wonderful. Just wait for the hangover that comes when you realize this guy isn't going away after that one issue is settled.

Yeah, you guys are gonna love this guy. Congratulations on adding another Olympia Snowe to national prominance in the Republican Party. You get what you ask for.

On the bright side, we know the guy will be a moderate, so I'll have to hope he turns out to be one with a shred of integrity. A rare thing on the hypocritical political right , these days.
 
83WTC Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 09:23
Excellent analysis, Magnolia. I agree, fluky election. The dems have nothing to worry about and should proceed as usual.

If the Dems lose a vote in the Senate on health care, I wonder what that is going to cost the American taxpayer to bribe another senator to get the vote back? How much have those votes been going for? $300,000,000. $500,000,000?

 
84Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 09:35
While Republicans have every right to cheer, too much is being made that this election is indicative of a national rejection of Obama and the current health care legislation.

While there's certainly a backlash generated by ultra-popular, ultra-biased Fox News, the nuts and bolts revealed a Democratic candidate completely divorced from the blue collar contingency she needed for victory. Coakley better represents the Pelosi-style limousine liberal, which plays well in the ivy-covered walls of Cambridge, not so well in the Irish neighborhoods of South Boston. This was an election where Republicans actually benefitted from a large turnout. There was a call to arms, and the electorate responded.

Still, this victory bodes well for Republican opportunities in the fall. I'm thinking that is not so much a rejection of Obama as a rejection of Reid and Pelosi, two of the most polarizing, ineffective party leaders ever to come down the chute. Obama could build some political capital by publicly congratulating Brown, welcome him to the Senate, and express his desire to work with him on important legislative matters. The more Obama works to heal the divide, the harder it will be for his opponents to widen it, even if it's all based on perception, not reality.
 
85Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 09:59
“There’s going to be a tendency on the part of our people to be in denial about all this,” Bayh told ABC News, but “if you lose Massachusetts and that’s not a wake-up call, there’s no hope of waking up.”

Indiana Dem Evan Bayh

 
86Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 10:03
For the record something like half the doctors in Mass. are refusing to take new patients under the terms of the Mass. healthcare regime and it looks like Brown got the message.

A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged by reality and maybe it's for the best that Massachusetts has already been mugged by state run healthcare.

 
87Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 10:14
And which lever did Barney Frank pull?
 
88Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 10:21
I am waiting for PD's next dance of triumphalism over the grave of conservatism.

Cannot hear the music but he jerks kinda like a Seinfeld episode.


Next time I hear a Boldwin complaint about personal insults I'll have to pull that little gem up.

B, you should delete that post.

Re#84: I certainly agree. Nothing would be better for the Dems than for the Republicans to (again) learn the wrong lessons from an electoral result. I was heartened that the far right was able to simply keep quiet (unlike the NY special election, which cost their party a House seat). Brown will have to run again for 2012 and appears to be a moderate Republican. We'll see how effective the GOP is at sucking out his soul in the short time before he has to face the voters again.
 
89Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 10:25
For the record something like half the doctors in Mass. are refusing to take new patients under the terms of the Mass. healthcare regime

For what record, the one that throws out numbers with no supporting data?

 
90Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 10:46
Fair request I guess.

First off 10-30 percent of Massachusetts doctors are so angry with state run healthcare that they have already left the state.

 
91Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:07
While there may be evidence that doctors are in fact leaving the state, saying that they are "so angry with state run healthcare" is disingenuous. Doctors, like anyone else, will follow what's in their own best financial interest. It does not necessarily mean they harbor any extreme ill-will. And of course, it's a lot easier to leave Massachusetts than it is to leave the United States if, for example, Romneycare was expanded nationally. Doctors aren't going to leave the US to make more money elsewhere because they can't.
 
92Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:17
The link in #90 is from 1990. Hence, The American Medical Association estimates that more than 10 percent of doctors in private practice have left the state since 1985 is rather meaningless.

2006 is the year Romneycare was enacted. That should be the starting point, no?
 
93Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:35
1) One in four doctors in Ma. are 'contemplating a career change due to the current practice environment.

2) One in five is considering moving out of state.

 
94Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:37
From the link in #90.

Last year Massachusetts convened a special Physician Supply Commission to study the problem. That was in part to respond to legislators' claims that constituents in some areas were having trouble finding doctors. and to claims by hospitals in some parts of the state that they could not fill their staffs, said Matthew Fishman, Massachusetts Assistant Secretary for Health and Welfare.

The report ''did a lot of consciousness-raising in the Legislature and let them know that doctors here were really angry,'' Mr. Fishman said.


Here's some history on Matt Fishman

Mr. Fishman began his career in state government. He served as Budget Director for the Massachusetts Department of Public Welfare and then as Assistant Secretary of Human Services during the second and third terms of Governor Michael Dukakis

So it looks like Mass. doctors have been angry for almost 30 years.
 
95Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:42
You can't find a doctor who will accept you in Ma. in senate testimony. Concierge practice has developed.
 
96Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:44
I'd heard a lot of grumbling from doctors in Massachusetts, but haven't really seen any hard recent numbers. Doctors have a high mobility rate anyway. Grumbling, plus actual mobility, doesn't equal cause. It does, however, present an opportunity for political spin.
 
97DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:55
B, do you even bother to read the links that you post? It's a serious question.

I mean, the gaffe in #90 (pointed out by PV in #92) was pretty ridiculous.

This random link-spamming from 20 year old articles that have nothing to do with the current situation is pathetic, yet you go on posting other ones without even an "oops" acknowledgment?
 
98Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:01
"Not accepting new patients"

Wow, it's a national response to government reimbursement...

In a 2006 report from the Center for Studying Health System Change, a nonprofit research group based in Washington, nearly half of all doctors polled said they had stopped accepting or limited the number of new Medicaid patients.
 
99Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:11
Yes I read them, reading parts that look promising, skimming the rest....that was found with the google search "Massachusetts Medical Society" 2009 Physician Workforce Study which I read in summary in PDF.

Missed the published in 1990 at the header in that particular link however. The results consistant with the 2009 study which found severe shortages in the supply of doctors and doctors willing to accept new patients despite the fact that Mass. has [one of or the] highest concentration of doctors to population in the country.

Forcing 40+ million more patients into a medical system hemoraging doctors will not work as well as you libs imagine. Make that 40+ million on top of an entire population who suddenly believes doctor visits are now free.

 
100Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:28
We're really getting into a general health care debate, which belongs in a health care thread.

What's telling is that yesterday's election is being presented by the right as a national health care referendum, not a special election between Senate candidates Brown and Coakley. Health care is but one issue on which the two conflicted.

More relevant, I believe, is the feeling within the electorate that government spending is out of control, and the right has done a good job portraying health care reform as the poster boy for this issue.

If the Democrats are to avoid disaster in 2010 and 2012, they'll need to at least give the perception of spending restraint, but I'm not confident that's in the make-up of Pelosi and Reid, or even Obama. Regardless of CBO projections, virtually no one trusts that health care reform won't bloat the debt; that cap and trade won't bloat the debt; that a jobs bill won't bloat the debt. And Obama seems to be having a problem even in his own party instilling confidence that he can build that trust.
 
101holt
      ID: 427111315
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:35
re 82
On the bright side, we know the guy will be a moderate, so I'll have to hope he turns out to be one with a shred of integrity. A rare thing on the hypocritical political right , these days.

A rare thing from anyone in Congress, regardless of whether they are from the left or right, I'd say.
 
102Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:36
I think this election can have some very good benefits for Dems. Presuming they aren't able to convince the rare moderate Republicans in the Senate to change sides, this will force them to try to craft agreements with the Republicans. As I've stated many times, having Republican ideas in the legislation makes for better legislation. It is the nature of legislating through compromise.

And, if the GOP continues to be big babies about the problems facing the country, they'll have to face the music at the polls. Hoping that they can have two years of GOP-stirred discontent in this country is a huge gamble for them. But hey, they can say they never stooped to compromising,
 
103Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:55
As I've stated many times, having Republican ideas in the legislation makes for better legislation. It is the nature of legislating through compromise.

You know I've said this many timesm, too. The flaw is that Republicans will happily reject their own ideas in order to frame them as Dem-proposed euthanasia or whatever pariah they come up with that fits. Obama's biggest mistake was giving them a chance to participate. Regrettably, it's one of the reasons I supported him. Hopefully he's learned the same lesson I have; it doesn't pay to play nice. Not with today's GOP. Look at the farce Grassley turned the gang of Six into. Retain as many seats as possible and shut them out of the process the rest of the way.

This marks the end of my support for bipartisan politics. Never thought I'd say this: it's 2010, gerrymander the fcuk out of those districts.
 
104DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 13:30
"The results consistant with the 2009 study which found severe shortages in the supply of doctors and doctors willing to accept new patients despite the fact that Mass. has [one of or the] highest concentration of doctors to population in the country. "

Wait a minute, now... first they were leaving in droves, yet they have the highest concentration of doctors to population?

Where are they leaving to, Mars?

The reason they aren't accepting new patients is either:

1. The system is STILL overloaded, despite the amount of doctors present, because we have a large segment of our population that otherwise gets NO HEALTH CARE WHATSOEVER. I'd be all in favor of relaxing the requirements for some medical procedures (let Nurse Practicioners do more, for instance) to alleviate this.

2. The doctors that are there don't want the additional patients because they feel like they don't get paid enough for them. I suspect it's mostly this. I have some amount of sympathy for that--if they don't want the extra patients, I don't think we can make them take them--but of course we could try to raise the reimbursement costs and then we'll have the same people bitching and moaning about how it's a massive entitlement.


It'd be a lot easier if the people trying to block health care were a lot more fundamentally honest and just said: "I like the society that wants a bunch of our population to not get health care, because I prefer the costs of my second car and my extra cable channels to giving a damn."
 
105Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 13:30
Love the headline in the Village Voice today: "Scott Brown Wins Mass. Race, Giving GOP 41-59 Majority in the Senate."
 
106biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 13:36
Heh. Village Voice even realizes dems are pussies.

I dated a girl with 2 sisters, and two physician parents.

Back in the late 80s- early 90s when HMOs were taking off, the parents essentially barred any of the daughters from seeking a career in medicine. You work too hard, have little autonomy and you are constantly being squeezed monetarily by various health and malpractice insurers.

This was almost entirely due to the increase in the profit motive. It has poisoned the health care industry.
 
107Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 13:40
You mean doctors, when they started working for The Man, got angry about it?

Who knew? Did someone welcome them to the real world at that point?

:)
 
108biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 13:42
Pretty much.

Just sayin'.

Physician discontent didn't start with obamacare.
 
109Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 13:45
My father is a physician and essentially told the same thing to my brother and I. However, twenty years later, he is still practicing medicine, making great money and my contemporaries who went into medicine will soon do the same. Although still, they all complain about the ominous future of medicine. After twenty years of hearing this, I've come to realize that it's just doctors being doctors. Medicine could be a lot better, but the financial incentive to go into medicine isn't going away any time soon.
 
110biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 13:46
We shouldn't discourage potential doctors from entering the field. I think most want, and would be satisfied with, a comfortable living and a pleasant work environment. They ain't looking to be rich.

When you have someone with a stop-watch and a formulary looking over your shoulder as you see your patients, that ain't a pleasant job. Especially after devoting 12 years of your life to get to that point.
 
111biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 14:06
It's also arguably not good medicine.

You can't just treat the symptom you are able to ascertain after a 2-3 minute consult, but that's what HMOs are forcing docs to do.

I hate docs myself, but they work awfully hard, and do a tough job. We need to make it easier for the more altruistic (those wanting to go into primary care and pediatrics and family medicine) to get into the field. And we need for them to want to get into the field.
 
112Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 14:29
We do that by paying them far, far more than they would make in most other fields (including, of course, health care benefits).

They absolutely work their butts off, and are squeezed by the bean counters. But I'd rather spend my time and energy getting teachers a decent salary than adding more goodies into a field which offers great pay (and doctors in the US are paid better than doctors elsewhere in the world).

I don't mean to come off sounding dickish, but your comment left me with the same feeling I had about bankers telling Obama to keep his hands off their bonuses or they might leave the field.
 
113biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 14:40
I think you misunderstood me then. I don't think pay is a primary motivator. I think autonomy is.

This just goes back to my desire to burn down health insurers and HMOs and create a more rational system that offers incentives for docs to go into under-served areas.
 
114biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 14:42
Incentives like education subsidies so that the docs aren't so laden with debt at graduation that they have to specialize to pay it back.
 
115Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 14:53
Liking Brown more and more.

Brown, in his first meeting with reporters after the special election, portrayed his victory as less a referendum on Obama or the president's health care proposal and more of a sign that people are tired of Washington politics and dealmaking.

He said his victory sends "a very powerful message that business-as-usual is just not going to be the way we do it."

"I think it's important that we hit the ground running," Brown said


Brown said that, while he planned to caucus with Republicans, "I'm not beholden to anybody."

link
 
116DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 15:06
If he'll back that up, I could get to like him too.
 
117DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 15:06
If he'll back that up, I could get to like him too.
 
118Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 15:10
How many Senators take their election as a national referendum? Brown is beholden to someone: the people of Massachusetts.
 
119Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 15:16
I don't think pay is a primary motivator. I think autonomy is. - bili

I think that is a very important factor at least. One that is juust crushed in Obama's vision of the future. They were planning on specifying where they could do residency. They were demanding mandatory voluntary service corp time.

Marxism is the death of the individual, motivation and autonomy. And thus the death of quality of life and quality services. It does promise a more equal distribution of misery however.

 
120Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 15:18
There is no difference, in Massachusetts, between the plans passed in Congress and the ones in Massachusetts (except the Massachusetts has an individual mandate). There would be no additional "crushing" in that state.
 
121Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 15:28
There is no difference, in Massachusetts, between the plans passed in Congress and the ones in Massachusetts

Obama will have us all on mandatory voluntary chaingangs before he is satisfied. That is not in the current law of the People's Republic of Massachusetts.

 
122Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 15:36
Well, that is a projection of yours. And you are welcome to your opinion. But in this special election there was a lot of projecting being done.

The fact is that health care wasn't an issue at all in the race until the very end, when Democrats realized that a loss would impact their health care legislation in Washington (held up, of course, by the GOP when Obama kept trying to get them to come to the table). And the GOP leapt at the chance to project their fears onto the race.

Brown appears to be a moderate Republican, and will have to run again in 2012. While the GOP now seems to require that their members turn over all individuality to the Party when they arrive in Washington (as all opinions must be Party-approved), Brown probably realizes that he will be required to walk a thin line to get the chance to win in 2012. The Dems are unlikely to make the same mistakes again.
 
123Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 16:21
While the GOP now seems to require that their members turn over all individuality to the Party when they arrive in Washington

Tell it to the blue dogs.

 
124Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 16:23
Uh, no. I'm talking to the GOP. Dodging isn't going to help your side.
 
125Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 16:40
Well I suppose Bob 'the wimp' Michels is all tan and rested. Would that make you happy?
 
126Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:04
2 points-
1- It was nice to hear that Obama wants Brown seated before anythiing is done about healthcare.
2-I am at the point now that I hope like hell that the democrats try to ram health care through. 49% of the people in Mass who voted made health care the reason they voted for Brown,(heard that on Hannity's Show on my way home from work). If the Democrats are to stupid to see this, then please i beg you to try and pass it. I warned you Dems the blood bath is coming and last night was the start. If you want to keep the majority and not lose many seats, it is time for you to throw OBama under the bus. If not, may the blood bath continue.
 
127Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:06
I have to like Brown if Glen "The Drooler" Beck doesn't.

I want a chastity belt on this man. I want his every move watched in Washington. I don't trust this guy. This one could end with a dead intern. I'm just saying. It could end with a dead intern.

I'm just saying. Wow.
 
128Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:08
Watch what you wish for, NG. You can never roll back these things and they appear ready to 'double down' and go for it full speed ahead and damn the American people.
 
129Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:09
So he's saying it could be just like the last guy. By all accounts an American Icon.
 
130Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:16
Heh. Neither will I, but our tax dollars are paying to spread the news.
 
131holt
      ID: 427111315
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:24
re 114, and pretty much off-topic.

I'd love to see a system that offers to pay full ride for any good student willing to become a doctor. Then instead of paying off massive loans as a cost of education, they can serve in needed areas for whatever amount of time and whatever pay is reasonable.
 
132Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:25
Neither will I what?
 
133Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:26
This will be a big disappointment then.

Obama To Dems: Don't Jam Through Health Care Bill link
 
134Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:32
Barney Frank is talking adult on this point as well.

Words are cheap so...

 
135DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:38
If they're cheap, one would think you would be able to talk in a similarly adult manner, no?
 
137Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 00:28
There were no exit polls done, so I'm not certain how Hannity would know the reason why people voted the way they did. Since Brown won by about 4% of the vote this seems to be a wee bit overstated by Hannity (no surprise there).

Here's the thing: Brown would be, by far, the most liberal Republican in the Senate, and more liberal than the Democratic Blue Dogs. I don't believe he's going to be the Palin-like darling that many on the far right are under the impression he'll be.
 
138Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 05:07
There were internal pools. Browm won by 5. If he stops health care who cares, thats conservative enough.
 
139Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 06:54
Which direction from Snow?

After having won Barney Frank's district...

[think that had anything to do with Frank refusing to do an end around on this vote and sneak the commie-care vote in ahead of Brown's seating?]

After giving the penultimate answer to calls for 'passing healthcare to honor Ted Kennedy'...

After repairing the balance in the Senate stolen by George Soros and Al Franken...

...this is one Republican who is not going to get checked too closely for conservative bona fides.

 
140Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 07:22
If he stops health care who cares, thats conservative enough.

and there in lies the problem. that's one issue. and i don't think you're paying that much attention to even that one.

do you care that he supported the 2006 Massachusetts health care reform, which requires all residents to purchase health insurance?

do you care that he refers to the currently legalized same-sex marriage in Massachusetts as a settled issue, which he does not wish to change?

do you care the he agrees with President Obama's positions on both anti-gay-marriage and pro-civil-unions?

do you care that he opposes ending the Defense of Marriage Act, and generally favors leaving the issue to the states to decide?

do you care that he has stated “Roe v. Wade is the law of the land, and does not plan to seek to overturn it?

(all info from wiki, via linked sources)

If you don't care about those other things - which you have implied that you don't - you might want to rethink your classification as a "Sarah Palin" Republican. In fact, a lot of Conservatives probably wouldn't think you're much more than a RINO.
 
141Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 08:26
Hey, I'm not even a Republican.

John Stewart is not in minimize mode.

The Daily Show With Jon StewartMon - Thurs 11p / 10c
Mass Backwards
www.thedailyshow.com
Daily Show
Full Episodes
Political HumorHealth Care Crisis

 
146Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 16:23
140-Your absolutely right. I am now a "Bob Beck" republican. The hell with all the other Republicans. I am going for now on vote what is in the best interest of me. He is against the health care and cap and trade. Oh and by the way how can you support a health care bill that does not insure 23 million people. If you really care about people the way you say you do, you would be against it also. But you really dont care about them do you?
 
147DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 17:14
"Oh and by the way how can you support a health care bill that does not insure 23 million people. If you really care about people the way you say you do, you would be against it also. But you really dont care about them do you?"

This is a really stupid rhetorical argument NG, and I think you know better than to use it.

Obviously it would be better to have 0 uninsured than 23 million. But if we end up with 23 million instead of 46 million (I'm just pulling that number out of the air), are you saying it's not worth doing?

If you wanted to sent 100,000 troops to Iraq, and you were only allowed to send 80,000, would you throw up your arms and say "oh, well, forget the whole thing then?" If you wanted taxes reduced by 20% and you could only get a 15% tax reduction passed through the Senate, would you say "no thanks, keep that 15%, IT'S 20% OR NOTHING!"
 
148Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 08:35
Obviously it would be better to have 0 uninsured than 23 million. But if we end up with 23 million instead of 46 million (I'm just pulling that number out of the air), are you saying it's not worth doing? I think after being told that every American would be cover under the health bill, I could use my stupid rhetorical argument. Obviously you dont mind being lied to, so Obama can get what he wants, but this time he got his hand caught in the cookie jar. People dont like being lied to.
 
149biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 08:47
It's not what Obama wants. It's what our country desperately needs.

And it would best we have any hope of getting for a long, long time.

Y'all better hope you didn't inherit any expensive diseases.

 
150Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 08:59
he got his hand caught in the cookie jar

Does that actually mean anything?
 
151Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 09:00
People dont like being lied to.

Failure to accomplish what you set out to do - due in large part to the best efforts of a hostile oppposition - is not lying, it's failing. Is that really so confusing?
 
152Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 11:38
Then hes a failure. He had the majority, so the hostile opposition was the democrats. Thanks for the explanation, it doesnt seem so confusing now.
 
153Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 11:49
Now hes forced to work with the republicams if he really wants to get any thing done. If not hes a lame duck. With the bloodbath in November coming he has no choice.
 
154Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 12:32
I think it is a little ironic that the Rights' latest meme on health care is that it took so long and doesn't cover everyone. The reason it took so long is that the Democrats tried for months to get Republicans on board to at least engage with them on the issue. They could have passed a far more liberal bill in the late summer but tried to get at least some bipartisan ideas.

We should pass the bill because it saves a boatload of money in Medicare costs. If, as is the current GOP talking point, the number of uninsured don't matter but deficits do then the Right should be foursquare behind the Senate bill. But I suspect that current GOP policy is no longer driven by anything other than being against whatever Democrats propose.

He had the majority,

Still does. Not to put too fine a point on it.

What will happen from here on out is that the Democrats will just shed the attempts at bipartisanship that gummed up the works in the past. Bipartisanship only works when people talk in good faith (and the GOP has demonstrated it has no intention of talking with Democrats. On anything). The GOP will be left with the hope that the country will still be in the tank and that they can convince the country that they have a host of ideas they were unwilling to share before about how to get the country on its feet.

 
155Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 12:57
He had the majority, so the hostile opposition was the democrats.

No, certain congressional Dems were grandstanding opportunists. Chuck Grassley and the GOP were the obstructionist, hostile opposition.
 
156Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 13:11
Thats laughable. Your biggest problem were the progressives in the party. It was all democratic in-fighting. Its easy to blame the other party. But the Dems should take a look in the mirror and take care of the "hostile opposition" in their own party. Try working with the Progressives first, then move on with the other party.
 
157biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 13:13
The progressive agenda was largely ignored, yet they went along anyway. I'm not sure we are living in the same country.
 
158Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 13:36
bili is exactly right. The back and forth with Snowe and others (who were happy to bask in bipartisan love to help them with their voters back home) took all the time. Progressives grumbled but are far more pragmatic about health care than conservatives. And it shows in how they vote.
 
159Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 15:21
lol- if thats the case why were there negotiations after the Senate passed their bill. The progressives more htan grumbled. They pussy footed around until the people of Mass told the congress what the people of America really thought of the bill. You only have yourselves to blame. The revolution has started. It will continue in November. The power of the vote. Dont under estimate the American people, they are smarter than what you Dems think. How that Hope and Change working for you. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
 
160Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 15:54
The revolution has started. It will continue in November. The power of the vote. Dont under estimate the American people, they are smarter than what you Dems think. How that Hope and Change working for you. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

this is the sort of thing i'm seeing more and more of, after the Massachusetts election.

this odd sort of footballesque "OH HELL YEA!! WE ARE ON THE MOVE!! IN YOUR FACE!" kind of taunting.

i feel bad for those who think the loss of an ineffective politician who ran a bad campaign in a state that has no problem electing Republicans (despite all those "bluest of blue" state comments that are off the mark) is some sort of massive indicator of broad-sweeping change.

i also feel bad for those who think that Senator Brown is going to be some sort of harbinger of sweeping Conservative change.

He is likely going to be the most liberal senator. And he's more liberal that some of the Democrats.
 
161Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 16:18
"I>But the Dems should take a look in the mirror and take care of the "hostile opposition" in their own party. Try working with the Progressives first, then move on with the other party. - NG

The progressives are in the driver's seat in that party. Anyone else in that party wears a choker chain and is blue in the face from being dragged around and stifled.

The dem majority is quite illusory in that their majorities hinge on blue dog dems who are only dems because they are in conservative states with historically strong Dem party machines that carry forward from decades past when there was an entirely different dem party.

 
162Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 17:22
decades past when there was an entirely different dem party.

i don't know what concept of this comment made me chuckle more. The apparent refusal to acknowledge that time marches on and things change, or the comment coming from someone who advocates an entirely different republican party than the one the one that was around for much of the last 30 years.
 
163Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 17:39
The dem majority is quite illusory in that their majorities hinge on blue dog dems who are only dems because they are in conservative states with historically strong Dem party machines that carry forward from decades past when there was an entirely different dem party.

There are 32 Blue Dog Democrats. If every one were subtracted, the House would still hold a Democratic majority(currently 256 Dem - 178 Repub).
Of the 32 Blue Dogs, more than half(19) come from states that are not considered conservative, and I'm not even counting North and South Dakota, Kansas, and North Carolina, which went Obama in 2008.
link

So the word illusory does fit here, in that your sentence defines it perfectly.
 
164walk
      ID: 44111268
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 19:04
NYT: GOP seeks to widen field in fall elections

I do fear a shift towards republicans in the Fall, as when time are bad, and they are bad now, the party in power tends to lose. Just is. Not saying that the Dems are the cause of our bad times, 8 years of Bush & Cheney had a lot more to do with it, but outside of another huge stim package, which will be politicaly untenable, or some other miracle, the jobless rate will continue to be poor, and our deficit will continue to grow with Afghanistan and Iraq costs (I wish Obama would get out of Afghanistan), I think the Dems are going to take a big hit this Fall. It would be great if the republicans won with some intelligencia and not some Palin-like boobs. We have some time to see who gets put up.
 
165Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 19:45
The revolution has started

If electing a pro-health care, pro-choice Republican in Massachusetts is an indication of the revolution than I'm not sure that those saying this are learning very many of the lessons of the election. Does this mean a rush to elect moderate Republicans?

This will be an all-or-nothing election in the fall. Dems will win big (in which case the Republicans really will be the martyrs they insist they are right now) or Republicans will storm back (in which case we'll have gridlock, since Republicans have no idea of how to play well with others).

I certainly welcome the Republicans doubling down. It means that the Democrats will push through whatever they can this year (no more overtures at bipartisanship with a GOP who slaps their hand every time it is given out). And it means that Obama will be moving into election mode. And I would be pleased to see the
GOP (again) underestimate Obama on the election trail.
 
166Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 21:54
Well that is a scary thot because the Dems in the admin are said to be in double-down mode and campaigning is the one thing Obama can actually do well.
 
167Frick
      ID: 9103036
      Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 08:22
PD, do you have a site where you can look at voting records by party?

I'm just curious if voting patterns are different now then they have been for the last 10-20 years.
 
168Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 09:01
govtrack.us.
 
169Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 12:24
Somewhat related, here's a great article on the filibuster with links to other great articles.
 
170Tree, on lunch
      ID: 570552512
      Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 13:55
since Republicans have no idea of how to play well with others

i think to say that ALL Republicans have no idea is a generalization.

i think the fear mongering by the far Right of the party has caused many more moderate Republicans to live in a bit of fear to think for themselves or buck that small, but vocally obnoxious minority.

We saw it in the presidential campaign, when McCain tried to woo the radical Right by altering his positions a bit in an effort to appeal to them.

obviously, that failed miserably.
 
171Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 13:28
Mike Pence not running against Bayh in Indiana. This, I think, is a blow to the GOP. Bayh was not polling well against Pence, who has developed a well-earned reputation as a firebrand conservative. Bayh is polling well against the only other declared Indiana candidate (John Hostettler).

In Pence's announcement, this is just hooey, intended to present a false bravado: I also am staying because I believe we will win back the majority in the House of Representatives in 2010, and I am excited to be a part of it
 
172Frick
      ID: 9103036
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 13:41
I live in Indiana and I don't see either candidate making a serious run against Bayh. I would say the same of a Democrat running against Luger.

 
173Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 16:33
160-
1-Hes against health care front and center in the most liberal state
2-Hes against cap and trade to trim carbon emissions
3-He ran against same sex marriage in his State Senate run for the office
4-Hes for lower taxes to encourage Economic growth
5-Supports the 2nd amendment
That doesnt sound liberal to me. It seems to me the Liberals are trying to define what a conservative is. If it is liberal, maybe your in the wrong party. With those views he campaigned on, I will cheer him on, (I like to use the Hockeyesque approach) as far as he wants to go.
 
174Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 16:42
He is, by far, the most liberal Republican in the Senate (based upon his own voting records). This isn't defining what a conservative is--this is taking how he voted and noting how that lines up with others in the Senate.

 
175Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 18:02
Im sitting here and my chair started to spin by itself.
 
176Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 18:19
You're right: a pro-choice guy from Massachusetts isn't liberal at all.

Part of the problem here is that there seems to be no belief that a guy can be both "liberal" or even "moderate" and "Republican." By and large the most liberal members of the GOP are from the Northeast, however.

Is he a "liberal" in the sense of, say, Franken? No. But he'll be the most liberal member of the GOP by far.

To expect anything else from Massachusetts could only come from a psychic break with reality.
 
177Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 19:01
The guy was all for Romneycare, which is a notably more extensive system than the Senate bill he killed. He still defends it today.

I don't see how anyone could read the explanation he gave Cavuto in post 22 and think he's an economic conservative. He said he doesn't like the federal plan because MA residents don't need it - because they already had a big fancy expensive healthcare overhaul in their state -- with a mandate, no less --- that he helped put there.
 
178Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 19:33
173=
6-No miranda rights for terrorist
 
179Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 19:59
6-No miranda rights for terrorist

I'd love conservatives point to any elected official who maintains that our laws require that people accused of international terrorist acts are subject to Arizona v. Miranda. Just one. It's such a red herring. Makes for good TV, but the claim that Democrats believe it is false.
 
180Wilmer McLean
      ID: 806275
      Wed, Jan 27, 2010, 06:07
Boehner claims House Republicans dominate Twitter, YouTube and other social media in Congress -- PolitiFact.com (True)
 
181Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Jan 27, 2010, 07:25
as someone who dabbles in social media to make a few extra bucks on the side, i'm not surprised by post 180.

There's little question to me that the Republicans have done a better job of getting their message out, and they have a better PR machine, and in 2010, Social Media is a big part of it.

despite the technology. in a way, it's a Populist way to get your message out. More and more people are online, and more and more people are actively involved with Social Networking.

I've said it here before - if you're not using it to spread the message you might want to share, you're going to be let behind.

More than the election in Masschusetts, this bit of information is more worrisome to me.
 
182Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Thu, Feb 04, 2010, 21:20
Home > News > Nation/World Vulnerable Dems seek distance from Obama

Topics
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XBudgets and Budgeting
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Washington DC Bureau

6:32 p.m. EST, February 3, 2010
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As Congress begins picking through President Obama's vast election year budget, many Democratic incumbents and candidates seem to be finding something they love — to campaign against.

A Democratic Senate candidate in Missouri denounced the budget's sky-high deficit. A Florida Democrat whose district includes the Kennedy Space Center hit the roof over NASA budget cuts. And an endangered Senate Democrat denounced proposed cuts in farm subsidies.

A headline on the 2010 campaign website of Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark.), blares her opposition to Obama's farm budget: ``Blanche stands up for Arkansas farm families,'' it says.

Heading into an election season in which Republicans are trying to tie Democrats to Obama's unpopular policies, Obama's budget gives his fellow Democrats an unlikely campaign tool — a catalogue of ways to establish their distance from controversial aspects of his administration.

It is a time-tested campaign tactic for politicians to declare their independence of party leaders. But the tactic is particularly important for Democrats this year, because their party dominates Washington, and being an insider is a political liability in an anti-incumbent climate.

Underscoring that dynamic, Obama held a question-and-answer session with Senate Democrats on Wednesday, drawing polite challenges from a procession of incumbents up for reelection.

Sen. Arlen Specter (D-Pa.), a recent party-switcher, questioned trade policies battering the steel industry. Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) asked about health care for first responders involved in the Sept. 11attack. The message from Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Ca.): ``California is hurting.''

All that underscores a potential gap between Obama's governing agenda and congressional Democrats' political interest in the election. While Democrats on the ballot encounter stiff headwinds, Obama is asking them look at the big picture on the budget, take on tough issues, and let the politics take care of themselves.

``If anybody's searching for a lesson from Massachusetts, I promise you, the answer is not to do nothing," Obama told the Senate Democrats. "We've got to finish the job on health care. We've got to finish the job on financial regulatory reform. We've got to finish the job, even though it's hard."

Since his State of the Union address last week, Obama has offered a spirited defense of his agenda, his feisty demeanor an implicit promise of support for those Democrats who work with him. At a time when some might be thinking about parting ways with his agenda, Obama is pressing his case that now is not the time to abandon the ideals that swept him into office.

While Democrats agree with Obama's broad goals, they do not agree with all it takes to achieve them – especially in his budget, which makes little short-term progress in deficit reduction yet calls for spending cuts in many programs.

Lincoln is a dedicated proponent of fiscal responsibility. But she sharply denounced the cuts in farm subsidies that are so important to her state. That is not only good constituent service, but good 2010 politics in a state that voted heavily against Obama in the 2008 election.

Wednesday's meeting with Obama gave Lincoln a televised opportunity to challenge Obama on a broader question. As one of eight Democrats hand-picked by party leaders to question the president, all but one up for re-election this year, Lincoln urged Obama to ``to push back against people in our own party that want extremes.''

Then, in short order, her campaign website featured a news report: ``Lincoln challenges Obama on liberal `extremes.'"

Elsewhere around the country, Rep. Suzanne Kosmas — a freshman Democrat from a Republican leaning part of Florida — minced no words in complaining about Obama's proposed cuts to the NASA budget. The space industry is one of the largest employers in her district.

``The president's proposal lacks a bold vision for space exploration and begs for the type of leadership that he has described as critical for inspiring innovation for the 21st century,'' said Kosmas.

In the swing state of Missouri, Democratic Senate candidate Robin Carnahan wasted no time this week denouncing Obama's budget as profligate.

``I'm disappointed in the president's budget recommendation,'' she said. ``Missouri families have to balance their checkbooks and our government is no different.''

Democrats trumpet that split between their candidate and Obama as Carnahan tries to run as an outsider. But Republicans have tagged her ``Rubberstamp Robin'' for supporting Obama's health care bill and other congressional initiatives.

Probably no vulnerable Democrat has more of a burden in defending Obama's budget than Rep. John Spratt (D-S.C.), the House Budget Committee Chairman who is facing a strong opponent in his Republican-leaning district.

The National Republican Congressional Committee has already run an ad attacking him for his record in handling deficit-laden budgets. But Spratt has not shied from his association with the volatile issue. When Obama's budget was delivered to Capitol Hill Monday, Spratt joined in a ``photo op'' for its reception.

The photo was run on a conservative blog under the headline: ``Budget now in Spratt's liberal hands.''

Looks like they are starting to throw OBama under the bus. Is it to little to late, stay tune, November is getting closer.
 
183Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Thu, Feb 04, 2010, 21:47
Looks like they are starting to throw OBama under the bus. Is it to little to late, stay tune, November is getting closer.

I'm assuming this is where your commentary began because of the spelling mistakes. The only thing I believe you got correct was the literal fact that November is getting closer. Still have an entire nine months to spin, obstruct, obfuscate and act immature, plenty of time for the Republicans.

But I fail to see anything that resembles Congressional Democrats "throwing" the President anywhere. The President is certainly more popular nationally than any Republican, Scott Brown's radiant glow has now faded. Seriously, NG, I know you are jumping up and down praying for, what is it, a "bloodbath" in nine months, but how much of that is wishful thinking and how much of that is based on objective poll numbers?
 
184Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 04, 2010, 22:04
Spelling errors, Zen? C'mon.
 
185Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Thu, Feb 04, 2010, 22:13
My comment simply pointed out that it was impossible to tell where the story ended and his comments began. He should learn how to throw a blockquote party.
 
186Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Feb 04, 2010, 23:07
i was hoping for a link...i'm curious where the story came from...
 
187biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 00:06
Baltimore Sun, though I found it on a site called "BitchaboutObama.com".
 
188Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 04:16
On Rush today, he pointed out that the free market always nails these things best. You suddenly can't find an Obama t-shirt among Washington street vendors anymore which is a big turn-around.
 
189Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 04:39
Its the dead of winter. I don't know about DC but in NYC at this time of year you see maybe 1/10th the street vendors you will see 4 months from now.

Not that I wouldn't welcome the end of the Obama novelty item fad, if he's right.
 
190Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 06:16
Yeah, but with global warming you don't even bother to put on a jacket over that t-shirt in a Washington winter anymore.
 
191biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 13:30
The Education of Henry Adams.

He had but to ask:—“If a Congressman is a hog, what is a Senator?” This innocent question, put in a candid spirit, petrified any executive officer that ever sat a week in his office. Even Adams admitted that Senators passed belief. The comic side of their egotism partly disguised its extravagance, but faction had gone so far under Andrew Johnson that at times the whole Senate seemed to catch hysterics of nervous bucking without apparent reason. Great leaders, like Sumner and Conkling, could not be burlesqued; they were more grotesque than ridicule could make them. . . . but their egotism and factiousness were no laughing matter. They did permanent and terrible mischief. . . . The most troublesome task of a reform President was that of bringing the Senate back to decency.


Hat tip Jon Zasloff.

Same as it apparently ever was.
 
192Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sun, Feb 07, 2010, 11:29
From Blanche Lincolns reelection web site-

Lincoln challenges Obama on liberal "extremes"

By Steve Patterson on Wednesday, February 3, 2010


Politico
by Glenn Thrush
www.politico.com

The seminal moment of this morning's q-and-a between Senate Democrats and President Obama was an extraordinary -- and extraordinarily uncomfortable -- exchange between Blanche Lincoln and Obama over the party's left and right wings.

Obama, in professorial mode, had spent much of the first hour of today's appearance instructing Democrats to stay his progressive course on health care and other key issues.

Lincoln, who faces serious competition in her '10 re-elect -- and a 27 percent approval rate in Arkansas -- practically demanded Obama "push back in our own party... for people at the extremes."

She added that "no one in your administration" understands how to make payroll.

Obama shot back hard, warning Lincoln, gently but firmly, that he had no intention of adopting the previous administration's policies, cautioning, "I don't know what would differentiate us from the other guys." [quickie transcript]

"We should not be spooked," he added.


Well it looks like she is peeking under the republican tent. I guess you do that when your approval rate is at 27% and your are down in the polls by at least 25 points. It looks like she has picked Obama up in her process to throw him under the bus. This is a lot of fun to watch.
 
193Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Feb 07, 2010, 13:14
It is pretty clear that for a Democrat to win in the South they will have to run hard right. I don't think Lincoln will win, myself, but she's certainly doing whatever she has to do to try to win.
 
194Perm Dude
      ID: 211880
      Mon, Feb 08, 2010, 01:08
IL Lt Gov Candidate dropping out of race.

You'd think a pawnbroker and steroid user who abused his ex-wife and threatened his prostitute ex-girlfriend with a knife would be hitting all sorts of Chicago focus groups...