Forum: pol
Page 3418
Subject: Tea Party


  Posted by: Boldwin - [535651] Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 13:50

Suppose they threw a Tea Party and everyone showed up?

Having access to insider Dem strategy sites I can tell you they spend a LOT of time dithering about who the tea partiers are.

It turns out a Winston Group poll and a Gallup study shows they are remarkably representative across the board of America as a whole.
Yesterday's poll conducted by the Winston Group, reported that the 43% of the people in the Tea Party movement are not Republicans and their major concern is jobs and the economy. This is a far cry from the nonsense progressives and the mainstream media (is that redundant?) are telling the U.S., that the Tea Parties are comprised of the extreme right racist wing of the Republican Party, organizing to find a way to destroy the presidency of the first African-American to hold the office.
---
Gallup is reporting that more than half of Tea Party supporters are NOT Republican, but they tend to be much more conservative than the general population.

In several other respects, however -- their age, educational background, employment status, and race (yes RACE) , Tea Partiers are quite representative of the public at large.

Over the past year, Tea Party movement activists -- originally kindled by grass-roots opposition to the economic stimulus bill and taxpayer bailouts of homeowners -- came out strongly against the Democrats' national healthcare reform plans. That stance is evident in the latest USA Today/Gallup poll, in which 87% of Tea Party supporters -- versus 50% of all Americans -- say they consider passage of healthcare reform a bad thing.

While opposition to the healthcare bill is perhaps the most distinctive characteristic of Tea Party supporters in the new poll, their views on abortion are also notable. Nearly two-thirds consider themselves "pro-life" on the abortion issue, compared with 46% of all national adults.
That pro-life number makes the claim that movement is a purely economic and not a culturally conservative movement seem less than reliable.
 
1Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 14:00
The fact that the pro-life percentages in the movement are so much higher than Americans in general puts the lie to the claim that the movement is representative. It isn't. And never was. This isn't a bad thing, IMO, but you can't both claim extremely high numbers on issues and then claim it is representative in any way.

Tea Parties are comprised of the extreme right racist wing of the Republican Party, organizing to find a way to destroy the presidency of the first African-American to hold the office

The latest straw man example. If the "progressive" arguments are easy to deal with, then a good way to do so is to respond to actual arguments being made. Virtually no one of any repute on the left (or in the middle) portray the Tea Party movement as a whole this way. But what you will find are plenty of examples of GOP politicians sucking up to these loudmouths.
 
2Wilmer McLean
      ID: 5834432
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 14:04
Tea Party 48% Obama 44% Rasmussen Monday, April 05, 2010

On major issues, 48% of voters say that the average Tea Party member is closer to their views than President Barack Obama. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 44% hold the opposite view and believe the president’s views are closer to their own.

Not surprisingly, Republicans overwhelmingly feel closer to the Tea Party and most Democrats say that their views are more like Obama’s. Among voters not affiliated with either major political party, 50% say they’re closer to the Tea Party while 38% side with the President.

...

Most Say Tea Party Has Better Understanding of Issues than Congress Rasmussen Sunday, March 28, 2010

In official Washington, some consider the Tea Party movement a fringe element in society, but voters across the nation feel closer to the Tea Party movement than they do to Congress.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 52% of U.S. voters believe the average member of the Tea Party movement has a better understanding of the issues facing America today than the average member of Congress. Only 30% believe that those in Congress have a better understanding of the key issues facing the nation.

When it comes to those issues, 47% think that their own political views are closer to those of the average Tea Party member than to the views of the average member of Congress. On this point, 26% feel closer to Congress.

Finally, 46% of voters say that the average Tea Party member is more ethical than the average member of Congress. Twenty-seven percent (27%) say that the average member of Congress is more ethical.

...
 
3Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 14:16
Finally, 46% of voters say that the average Tea Party member is more ethical than the average member of Congress

Heh. Probably true. Look at Jim Bunning.

The "average Congress member" always polls pretty crappy. What is kinda funny is that, virtually across the board, the individual constituents rate their own Congress member very high, regardless of party.
 
4DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 20:20
"Gallup is reporting that more than half of Tea Party supporters are NOT Republican, but they tend to be much more conservative than the general population."

"That pro-life number makes the claim that movement is a purely economic and not a culturally conservative movement seem less than reliable."

Hmm.
 
5Boldwin
      ID: 535651
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 16:20
From the most 'The Democratic Strategist', a rather intelligent pragmatic tho fully partisan site dedicated to progressive political success. A site Obama sent me, hoping to change my mind. I kid you not.
TDS Co-Editor William Galston: The Perils of Polarization

This item by TDS Co-Editor William Galston is cross-posted from The New Republic.

The daily commentary about the Obama era has largely overlooked a trend that is now unmistakable—namely, the growing conservative sentiment in this country that goes well beyond the tea-party rallies and Glenn Beck’s rants.

Gallup offered the first piece of compelling evidence. On January 7, 2010, it reported that self-identified conservatives had increased from an average of 37 percent of the electorate in 2008 to 40 percent in 2009. (By contrast, moderates and liberals each decreased by one percentage point during that period.) Gallup based its conclusion on a synthesis of surveys taken throughout 2009, with a total sample of nearly 22 thousand and a margin of error of less than +/- one percentage point. It found, moreover, that ideological shifts among independents—a three-point drop in moderate identifiers, coupled with a five point-gain in conservative identifiers—accounted for most of the overall change.

The most recent Washington Post-ABC News poll underscores Gallup’s conclusion. The week of Barack Obama’s inauguration, 24 percent of respondents identified themselves as liberal, 42 percent as moderate, and 32 percent as conservative. In the latest survey period (March 23-26, 2010), by contrast, only 32 percent called themselves moderate, while 42 percent now regarded themselves as conservative—a remarkable 10 percentage-point shift. (Liberals remained unchanged at 24 percent.) I have not been able to find another survey in recent decades that gave conservatives that large a share, or moderates that small a share. While it’s easy to question the significance of a single poll, the liberal/moderate/conservative breakdown as measured by the Washington Post and ABC has averaged 22/38/37 during the Obama administration, versus 22/43/34 during George W. Bush’s second term—clear evidence of a shift toward conservatism among moderates.

These results are part of a polarization of the electorate that has been underway for a generation. While comparisons among polls using differing methodologies is dicey, trends within polls are revealing. In 1992, Gallup found that moderates averaged 43 percent, versus 36 percent for conservatives and only 17 points for liberals. By 2009, both conservatives and liberals had picked up 4 percentage points, while moderates had decreased by 7 points. To be sure, there have been twists and turns along the way. But the overall direction of the tectonic shift is clear.

Let’s take an even longer view. In a study published in the first volume of Brookings’ Red and Blue Nation?, the political scientist Alan Abramowitz examined two decades of evidence from the authoritative National Election Studies. In 1984, he found, 41 percent of voters were at or near the ideological midpoint, versus only 10 percent at or near the left and right endpoints of the scale. By 2004, only 28 percent were at or near the midpoint (a decline of 13 percentage points), while respondents at or near the endpoints had risen by 13 points, to 23 percent.

It remains the case that Washington is more polarized than the nation as a whole. The most recent analysis using the standard political science scoring system found zero ideological overlap between Democrats and Republicans in either chamber of Congress. Which means that in both the House and the Senate, the most conservative Democrat is more liberal than is the most liberal Republican. In the electorate, Democrats who consider themselves moderate or conservative still overlap with similar Republican identifiers. But as Republicans have shed liberals and moderates over the past generation, the overlap has diminished.

During the presidential campaign, Barack Obama was obviously aware of these trends, and he understood that Americans were tired of the kind of politics they had engendered. He took office pledging to reverse them. Quite obviously, this has not happened. Historians and political scientists will long debate whether it could have turned out differently, whether a different White House strategy might have weakened the Republicans’ early decision to present a united front in opposition. A plausible case can be made that an achievable bipartisan stimulus bill would have been less effective than the one adopted nearly along party lines—and that there was not enough common ground between Democrats and Republicans to produce significant health insurance reform. Still, it is hard to believe that any political party enjoys a monopoly on wisdom, so a situation in which the minority party gives the majority no incentive to accept the minority’s good ideas is bound to produce sub-optimal results.

Whatever the substantive merits of single-party legislation, there are other reasons to keep working toward more agreement across party lines. Political science research finds a strong inverse relation between the level of combat between the parties and citizens’ trust in their governing institution. While a measure of mistrust is functional in a democracy, excessive mistrust hampers democratic self-government. With trust at historic lows, we have reached that point. And progressives should remember that mistrust hampers those who wish to use government affirmatively more than it does those who seek to limit it.

Regardless, American politics now seems condemned to an extended period of intense polarization, with an expanding army of aroused conservatives fighting to halt and reverse what it sees as the deplorable Europeanization of our economy and society. I doubt that a politics so configured will be able to address our long-term economic problems—until a crisis forces us to. I hope I’m wrong.

Posted by staff on April 6, 2010 08:54 AM
From TDS because you wouldn't read anything from a less left-partisan source.

Without commentary because the moderator doesn't think you can handle the truth.
 
6Boldwin
      ID: 535651
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 16:36
'Europeanization of our economy and society'

And no thats 37% of the population who would not call it 'Europeanization of our economy and society' and who are no longer allowed to tell you what they do call it, here.
 
7DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 16:40
"and who are no longer allowed to tell you what they do call it, here."

Liar.
 
8Boldwin
      ID: 535651
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 17:20
Count the missing posts.
 
9DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 18:43
I did. Most of them were clear violations of the civility policy, and were therefore deleted. I'm rather disappointed that the discussion boikin and I had went by the wayside, but it belonged in another thread and not that one, so I can live with it.

Yes, even YOUR posts can be deleted when you do that. I know that you think you have license to say whatever the hell you want to and get away with it, but sometimes the moderators have the balls to do what's right.

However, the mere fact that you were allowed to post this thread (again) proves that you were, in fact, factually incorrect, again.
 
10DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 18:47
Also, the clear irony of complaining about it over here, instead of where it actually might conceivably be on topic is not lost on me.
 
11Boldwin
      ID: 535651
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 19:17
Your only goal here is to make sure both sides are not heard. The irony of you posing as having an interest in civility.
 
12Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 19:30
Your only goal here is to make sure both sides are not heard.

no. but there is a proper place for everything, and just because YOUR goal is to urinate on every single thread doesn't mean the moderators have to allow it.

that's what is pissing ME off. you can't stay on topic. you feel the need to pee on everything on these boards, whether it's related or not.

you can't let people have a tiny bit of joy here, because you're such a miserable individual you feel the need to take everyone else down with you.

go play with your grand kids. go on a picnic with your wife.

do something to bring some joy in your life.
 
13Boldwin
      ID: 535651
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 19:52
Learning...you should try it.
 
14DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 23:02
Way to once again stay civil and on topic. Going for the record, are we?
 
15Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 23:23
Learning...you should try it.

joy. you should try it.

Proverbs 15:13 is a good place to start, but 17:22 might be more apt for you.
 
16Boldwin
      ID: 535651
      Wed, Apr 07, 2010, 16:17
Oh, the violence!

 
17Boldwin
      ID: 634489
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 09:49
Today is the first day of the year when all your income wasn't confiscated by the government.
 
18bibA
      ID: 1231199
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 10:11
Finally I can buy some beer.
 
19Perm Dude in Denver
      ID: 5931499
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 10:15
And drive on roads, breathe clean air, drink clean water, enjoy the internet, etc etc, since it is now all paid for...
 
21Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 11:03
Today is the first day of the year when all your income wasn't confiscated by the government.

does that mean you'll stop whining?
 
22Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 11:52
Today is the first day of the year when all your income wasn't confiscated by the government.

A disingenous statement. Taxes vary incredibly depending on lots of factors, and attempting to average it out belies the nuances that vary from state to state, county to county and city to city. It ignores that those of us with children(I have 3 dependents - my two kids and my nephew) get a deduction; how much driving you do; some states have no state income tax, some have no sales tax; some folks have mortgage interest deductions that renters don't, etc.

If you're a single, non-homeowner making $250,000 a year in Utah, with an 80 mile round trip commute who smokes cigs(just raised a dollar a pack), your day is months off from a married father of 5 in Seattle(no state income tax in Washington) who takes public trasnportation and pays a mortgage making $50,000 a year.

I'm guessing you pay very little in federal income tax, and use the 'confiscation' angle more for effect than reality. Rather than picking a day when all your income isn't confiscated by the government, we should identify those who pay very little but feign outrage because it's currently fashionable among conservatives to be outraged at the government.

 
23Building 7
      ID: 229152116
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 12:28
April 9th is the average. As with any average, some will be sooner than April 9th, some will be later.
 
24Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 12:30
It's all gravy from here!?!

Sweet!

I'm a glass is half full kinda guy.
 
25Boldwin
      ID: 634489
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 15:40
There is nothing feigned about my outrage.
 
26Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 15:44
Cutting your taxes sure must piss you off.
 
27Boldwin
      ID: 634489
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 15:48
I'm guessing you pay very little in federal income tax

A) So what, that is only a fraction of what anyone pays. They've been hidden and tacked on everywhere imaginable so the full burden is not perceived by the public.

B) I have a spent my entire life making huge swings up and down the economic ladder. That is the glory of America that that is possible. That is the shame of liberals that they spend every effort making climbing the ladder of opportunity impossible and a permanent underclass a reality.
 
28DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 16:09
Nobody wants to "making climbing the ladder of opportunity impossible". That is, to put it nicely, a total strawman as to what the actual position is.

Would you like me to tell you what my position is, or will you be rendered uncomfortable by it not fitting in with your preconceived idea?
 
29Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 16:21
I think he's quite comfortable in his incredulity.
 
30Boldwin
      ID: 634489
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 16:25
Socialism and the locking in of the underclass is coming at a very inopportune time for me.
 
31sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 22:46
Is there such a thing as an opportune time to place limits on your upward mobility?

I'm a Liberal B. As a working adult, in the past 20 years:

I've made 2k on a year once.
I've made around 5k once.
I've made almost 200k a couple times.
I've made around 30k a few times and I've made around 100k a few times.

I dont feel at all limited. And I dont believe that "data distribution" would indicate much of a limitation being in place. Nor, am I alone in those ranges/swings.

IOW, your contention; is patently inaccurate.
 
32Boldwin
      ID: 634489
      Fri, Apr 09, 2010, 23:12
Is there such a thing as an opportune time to place limits on your upward mobility?

You can limb the ladder before they cut the bottom rungs off.
 
33sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 07:36
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, so as long as YOU get to climb the ladder and then anything affects only those "beneath you"; it doesnt matter to you anymore then.
Glad we cleared up just exactly where you stand B.
 
34Boldwin
      ID: 634489
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 08:21
Conservatives create the ladder for everyone.

Liberals want them slaving on the plantation forever.
 
35sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 08:26
yet another unsubstantiated, untruth which if anything; history shows to be nothing more than a soundbite and an inaccurate one at that.
 
36Perm Dude in Denver
      ID: 1838916
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 08:47
It is the kind of stuff which sustains the Right, sarge. At this point it is all myth-making and myth-sustaining. Their self-aware bubble would pop if they had to actually grapple with what is really going on with the Democratic Party, for example. So they don't. Nor do they want to actually get into office and solve actual problems.
 
37DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 14:24
"Conservatives create the ladder for everyone.

Liberals want them slaving on the plantation forever. "

Liar. Again.

Let's instead try:

Conservatives want to climb the ladder, then chop off the bottom rungs of the ladder so nobody can follow them up, which of course only makes the ladder shorter for everybody.

Liberals are fine with the ladder, but they'd like to install a net somewhere near the bottom so you don't die if you fall off.
 
38sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 20:01
I'd agree entirely with your post DW, with but one minor little "adjustment":

Liberals are fine with the ladder, but they'd like to install a net somewhere near the bottom so you don't die if you fall, or get kicked, off.
 
39Perm Dude in Denver
      ID: 283591018
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 20:01
Conservatives are happy to rent you a ladder. Or ensure that those born at the top rungs never have to move down.
 
40Boldwin
      ID: 634489
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 20:53
Liar. Again. - DWetz

Always good to see the civility police right on the heals of that. His incivility doesn't phase me in the least, but it's galling to be painted the posterboy of incivility by him when he does that every other post.
 
41Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 21:15
if the shoe fits, Baldwin. your own borderline sociopathic behaviour doesn't allow you to even accept you might actually be wrong on something.
 
42bibA
      ID: 523311020
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 21:39
Possibly being wrong, and blatantly being called a liar are two different things.
 
43astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 22:10
RE: 37

that is your belief. neither statement is rooted in fact.

 
44Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 22:23
I've grown tired of DWetzel believing the rules of civility do not apply to him.
 
45DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Apr 10, 2010, 23:55
I've grown tired of having my views deliberately misrepresented. Don't see anybody doing anything about that, either.
 
46astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Sun, Apr 11, 2010, 00:15
two wrongs don't make a right. fix your end.
 
48astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Sun, Apr 11, 2010, 01:32
how about taking the high road and assume your audience (those who read the Politics Forum) is able to delineate between your message and the 'lies'?... just a thought.
 
49Perm Dude in Denver
      ID: 283591018
      Sun, Apr 11, 2010, 02:50
I didn't see post 37 when I did my drive-by post, but the others are exactly right. Calling a clear statement of opinion a lie is wrong, plain and simple.

Disagree with it all you want. but call the person making an opinion a "liar" is simply outside the rules of civility. Hell, it would be wrong if he were making factual statements.

Please re-state it to reflect a post under our guidelines.

I've got like 10 hours of airport and airplane time tomorrow, so it'll be hit or miss to follow-up (or whack it myself).
 
50DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Apr 11, 2010, 13:04
Fine.

Boldwin, for the 78324327549751890589589014357143957435651890th consecutive time, I respectfully request that you stop misrepresenting the views of me and everyone else you're deliberately trying to inflame and insult.

I suppose if you do it yet again I won't have any recourse other than to ask you to stop again (because clearly it's OK to do what you're doing, so I'll be adding it to my repertoire for the future), which we all know you won't based on extensive prior experience, and we'll be right back where we started, even though it is counterproductive to keeping a healthy forum.





Happy?
 
51DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Apr 11, 2010, 13:12
Of course, modern day conservative heroes include a drug abuser and someone who was accused of raping and murdering a girl in 1990, so their judgment can't be trusted anyway.
 
52biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 07:36
Proverbs 22:24-25
Make no friendship with an angry man,
And with a furious man do not go,
Lest you learn his ways
And set a snare for your soul.


This bible has some good shite, man.
 
53DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 11:15
Meh, you're probably right.

It's just very annoying to have someone troll up the thread, and when it's pointed out that he's trolling up the thread, be the only one that gets bitched at.

If the initial trolling were dealt with as it's supposed to be, there wouldn't be any further problems.
 
54Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 12:34
We each have to take and accept responsibility for our own actions, and their consquences. (I think that's actually a principle of conservatism... but I digress.)

Behaving inappropriately in response to what you believe to be someone else's inappropriate behavior has never been an acceptable defense in this forum. I'm sure I've made that point numerous times.
 
55DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 13:12
You're right, I'm furstrated, and probably dealing with it poorly. I apologize. Someone can delete whatever needs to be deleted.

However, I stand by the point that not dealing with the initial trolling is a problem, and if it continues to not e dealt with, it will continue to be a problem. And as I've asked the user, nicely 9see post 26), to deal with it and they haven't, I guess that I don't really know what the next step's supposed to be if it continues.

Because saying "stop, or else I'll say stop again" really seems to be quite pointless, and if the people that are supposed to be stopping it aren't, then there is going to continue to be a problem. I'll do my honest best to minimze my end of it, but I think it's completely fair to ask the same of others, and that doesn't seem to be having any effect.
 
56Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 13:17
Ignore inappropriate posts.

I. E. Don't feed the trolls (if you judge someone to be
trolling).

Oldest rule on this (and most any) forum.
 
57DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 13:25
How about, the first person making inappropriate posts stop and there would be nothing to respond to?

Or how about, the people with the authority to get rid of the inappropriate posts, do so?

If EITHER of those things happen, then presto, problem easily solved.

But, when people keep trolling, and the moderators keep saying it's OK (by letting stuff stay up even after it's clear they've read it)... the only conclusion I can draw is that I'm wrong about what's acceptable and what's not, I guess. Okay, fine, whatever.

But then I keep getting told that when I do it it's unacceptable. So if it's unacceptable for me, why is it acceptable for others?

That's where I'm confused. Either it is OK or it isn't. If it is, then stop bitching at me and only me about it. If it's not acceptable, then deal with it when it starts.

Does this seem a completely unreasonable request? (I accept that if it IS unacceptable, I should wait for it to be dealt with by the people that can deal with it. However, when they have the opportunity to deal with it, and don't, I assume it's because it doesn't need to be dealt with.)
 
58Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 13:36
This is not a full service forum. There is no judicial recourse.

It's just a free forum with a few volunteers, already busy with
their own lives, trying to keep it from going off the rails.

Help them by policing yourself, even if you think you have a
legitimate greivance.
 
59Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 13:50
If you think you have been inappropriately maligned, then report it. No need to retaliate in kind.

Very few infractions have ever been reported.
 
60Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Apr 12, 2010, 23:50
even hearing that this is being discussed with a level of serious is pretty damned scary...

Okla. tea parties and lawmakers envision militia
 
61Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 11:14
What happens when CNN sends a black reporter to the Tea Party hoping to generate bad coverage?
CNN was the only national news outlet on this Western leg of the tour. We had a full team on the ground: myself, correspondent Ed Lavandera, producers Tracy Sabo and Jim Spellman and the crew of the CNN Express bus. For Spellman, it was his third Tea Party Express tour.

Together, we beamed out images of the anger and the optimism, profiled African-Americans who are proud to be in the Tea Party's minority and showed activists stirred by "God Bless America" or amused by a young rapper who strung together rhymes against the president and Democrats.

It is important to show the colorful anger Americans might have against elected leaders and Washington. But people should also see the orange-vested Tea Party hospitality handlers who welcome you with colorful smiles.

There were a few signs that could be seen as offensive to African-Americans. But by and large, no one I spoke with or I heard from on stage said anything that was approaching racist.

Almost everyone I met was welcoming to this African-American television news producer.

And though speakers railed against the "lame-stream media," activists and their leaders praised CNN, especially for being the only national media outlet riding along for the post-weekend stops. Some of them e-mailed me after my trip, thanking our crew for fairly giving them a voice.
 
62bibA
      ID: 3301311
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 12:00
For someone wanting to generate bad coverage, that seemed to be a pretty favorable report.
 
63Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 12:23
And though speakers railed against the "lame-stream media," activists and their leaders praised CNN, especially for being the only national media outlet riding along for the post-weekend stops. Some of them e-mailed me after my trip, thanking our crew for fairly giving them a voice.

meanwhile, you will continue to malign the mainstream media.
 
64Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 12:36
For someone wanting to generate bad coverage, that seemed to be a pretty favorable report.

Shamed by the good conduct shown, truth broke out at Clinton News Network.
 
65Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 13:15
Multi-State Survey on Race & Politics focusing on the attitudes of whites who support the Tea Party movement.

Worth noting is that those whites who support the Tea Party movement hold views on race that are outside the mainstream even among other whites.

Is the Tea Party racists? No, but it does seem to attract those who are. And for a party driven by "grassroots" (in quotes because I believe most Tea Party members to be tools of the conservative media) this doesn't bode well as a meaningful movement.
 
66Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 13:52
Very lame survey. Isn't asking if certain groups are VERY intelligent or HARD working ridiculous? Doesn't any fairminded person assume those qualities are more or less evenly distributed among all peoples and that NO group has a monopoly on those qualities? You don't reach a post-racial society baiting people to either agree blacks are unusually bright and hard working or agree to be labeled racists.
 
67Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 13:56
The quality of the questions is not important considering both groups were served the same questions. There was a marked difference between those who support the Tea Party and those who do not.
 
68Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 14:00
So the Tea Party supporters, who hold these views, are really victims of the polls? So when only 41% of Tea Party supporters agree that "Blacks are trustworthy" it is because they are post-racial?

Where, exactly, does it say anything about a monopoly?

True post-racial beliefs would have them agreeing equally, no matter who they are referring to.
 
69Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 14:17
Doesn't any fairminded person assume those qualities are more or less evenly distributed among all peoples and that NO group has a monopoly on those qualities?

absolutely. the question is whether those tea-partiers are "fairminded"

You don't reach a post-racial society baiting people to either agree blacks are unusually bright and hard working or agree to be labeled racists.

you continue to blame everyone but those responsible for their own actions and comments.

Whether it's marching through a crowd or answering questions on a poll, you're blaming others for baiting, not the responsible for their actions.
 
70Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 14:18
I bet if you answered 'Asians are VERY intelligent' they'd mark you down as racist. It's useful to you, so you don't see the inappropriateness of that survey. One more example of agenda driven science.
 
71Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 14:35
It would be helpful if you actually read the survey results. Same questions, different answers. There is a strong correlation between the answers to those questions and explicit support (or lack thereof) to the Tea Party movement. That is not in question.

So, how would one reconcile that correlation with the idea that those who support the Tea Party are no more or less bigoted than the average American?
 
72Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 14:39
It would be helpful if you actually read the survey results.

Exactly.

I'm not sure who the "they" are that Boldwin is referring to. He seems pretty certain what he is against. I'm not sure myself how he can be so certain he is against this particular survey when he didn't read it or the actual questions.

Perhaps that really defines the Tea Party: Assertive context-free contrarianism.
 
73DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 14:40
"Isn't asking if certain groups are VERY intelligent or HARD working ridiculous?"

Um, no? It's a survey? If it's a stupid question, then obviously you'd get the same answer from everyone. Except that didn't happen.

 
76Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 18:24
Yes, I didn't just click on the link. I looked at the actual questions, thus the HARD in caps, as it was in the questions. Well before anyone questioned whether I had looked that deeply at the survey.

Maybe Ya'll didn't dig that deep or you might have caught that.
 
77Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 18:28
Now what got censored?
 
78Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 18:39
Just in case mentioning that liberals might be self-loathing and thus skew their answers to a survey, gets you censored now, let's take a look at how that thot process works...in a report in...

White & guilty: ‘Whiteness’ workshop helps expose your inner racist - 'The National Post' [Canada]
In fact, I felt sympathy for just about everyone in that class. In private conversation, they all seemed like good-hearted, intelligent people. But like communist die-hards confessing their counter-revolutionary thought-crimes at a Soviet workers' council, or devout Catholics on their knees in the confessional, they also seemed utterly consumed by their sin, regarding their pallor as a sort of moral leprosy. I came to see them as Lady Macbeths in reverse -- cursing skin with nary a "damn'd spot." Even basic communication with friends and fellow activists, I observed, was a plodding agony of self-censorship, in which every syllable was scrutinized for subconscious racist connotations as it was leaving their mouths.
Now just because people with that mindset answer that survey peculiarly, does not make sane people who answer it differently, racists.
 
79Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 18:53
Actually it wasn't HARD, it was VERY, in caps...same point.
 
80DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 18:57
Because, clearly, an anecdotal opinion piece based on the goofiest 0.01% of the population on the other end is to be much more heavily valued than the actual data.

Seriously, is that the best you got? Because that's not very good at all.

Why duck the actual survey data? Why not address directly why the Tea Party members are extremely more likely to answer those questions in a racist way (and no, this is not explained at all by your anecdotal story), and what are we to deduce from that data? Try staying on that topic and not running for "see, here's one goofball, therefore all of you are wrong?" Because that's an exceedingly easy game to play, and you're not going to win anything that way.
 
81Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 19:00
You are welcome to explain why they answered the way they did, Boldwin. I think we've been encouraging you to do so in a way which involves looking at the actual data.

Linking to goofy Canadian anecdotes probably isn't helping your cause.
 
82Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 19:05
The real Tea Partiers.
 
83Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 19:07
It's a completely bogus survey. How would MLK answer it?
 
84WiddleAvi
      ID: 352232517
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 19:42
Boldwin - I love how you link to an article trying to show minorities in the Tea Party. Yet if you look at any of the pictures with any sort of larger crowd you will have trouble finding a single black person.
 
85Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 19:53
The Tea Party: Post Racial My Ass

MLK, in answering that survey, would have done exactly what the Tea Party supporters didn't: Consistently give the same answers no matter whether they were referring to blacks, latinos, or gays.

The numbers don't lie. But they sure make the idea of Tea Partiers overlooking racially-based attitudes a joke.

Nice picture of Gladney, accompanied by the text:

This White House-directed thuggery culminated in the beating and hospitalization of Kenneth Gladney. Andy Stern’s S.E.I.U. thugs didn’t approve of a black man peddling patriotic products at a townhall protest, so they beat the hell out of him while calling him a “nigger”.

We covered this, of course, starting with post #9 and it is pretty clear that the Tea Partiers were not only wrong, but stupidly wrong. But no good assertive claim against a union can really die, can it? Even if it is a lie.

Another lie: That black people can't be racist. Or, that they would never align themselves with a group which isn't in the best interest of others from their race (see Thomas, Clarence).

In the survey above, just 8% of non-whites strongly support the Tea Party. Sounds a lot like the GOP, frankly.
 
86sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 20:37
With the Air/Army National Guard already existing; how can ANY additional militia be established and what on Earth would be it's claimed mission?

Seems to me, a clear cut case of an intent to overthrow, which would of course be treason. All because the ultra-right-wingnuts lost the election. How I wonder, would they have reacted had the LEFT talked of forming such militia following Nov 2000 or Nov 2004?
 
87DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 20:56
"It's a completely bogus survey."

Even though you keep repeating it, no, it's obviously not. And you can keep burying your head in the sand about it, but that doesn't make it any less valid.

And, of course, this:

"MLK, in answering that survey, would have done exactly what the Tea Party supporters didn't: Consistently give the same answers no matter whether they were referring to blacks, latinos, or gays."
 
88Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 01:51
I admit liberals are not colorblind and are racist and any survey comparing their views and mine will be different.
 
89sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 07:20
B, can you be honest even with yourself? Any survey comparing MOST peoples views and yours; will be different.
 
90Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 08:56
From the link in #82:

The Obama administration attacks any media outlet that is critical of the administration. The government plans to expand party control of radio and the internet.

Herein lies my problem with the Tea Party in general - dishonesty. While they say the movement is a grass roots effort to limit federal government spending and intrusion, they insist on statements like the one above which has no bearing on reality and is meant merely to inflame, not inform.

This accusation came up a few days ago
in this thread.

When I suggested the "plan" was speculation, there was no response that provided evidence of any plan, only comments like

The Speaker of the House Pelosi has come out publicly in favor of reinstating the Fairness Doctrine.

Let's put aside that the Fairness Doctrine doesn't translate into The government plans to expand party control of radio and the internet.
Let's see the actual plan. Let's see the actual proposed legislation. If you can't provide that, and you present the statement as a matter of fact, it's inherently dishonest.

As for The Obama administration attacks any media outlet that is critical of the administration, this statement is so egregiously dishonest that further comment is unnecessary.

If supporters of the Tea Party are serious about what they say are their motives, they could become a legitimate political force in this country. If they insist on promoting dishonesty and distortion as a base for their platform, they will be seen as bitter prognosticators willing to say anything to forward their movement.

 
91Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 10:19
A) I provided abundant evidence that they are very very serious about eliminating their talk radio competition from virtually everyone in leadership position to do so.

B) As for The Obama administration attacks any media outlet that is critical of the administration, this statement is so egregiously dishonest that further comment is unnecessary.

How can you say that? He pulled an Alinski attack on Rush limbaugh trying to separate him from Republican leadership right out of the gate in his administration. He has directly attacked Fox News. How can you say what you said with a straight face?
 
92Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 10:24
What the hell is an Alinski attack?

The Obama administration has been criticized by every serious media outlet for one thing or another. The only ones it singles out are the ones purposely propagating untruths.

Back to the survey, so you are comfortable agreeing with the statement "If blacks would try harder, the would be as well off as white?"?
 
93Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 10:30
What the hell is an Alinski attack?

Alinski attack
 
94sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 10:34
You have provided no such evidence, let alone "abundant". What you have provided, is innuendo, falsehoods and biased propaganda.
 
95Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 10:42
#91

A) No you haven't

B) More dishonesty

Limbaugh and Fox News have attacked Obama relentlessly. He may be President, but he's still an American with the right to free speech and the right to respond to such attacks. But, of course, the claim was that The Obama administration attacks any media outlet that is critical of the administration, which is ludicrous. All I have to do is show one media outlet critical of the Obama administration that has never been mentioned in return to discredit that statement. Obviously, there's hundreds, but you stick to your story and I'll continue to expose the inherent dishonesty you seem to embrace.
 
96Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 10:55
Alinsky. Soros. Marx. Cloward. Piven These are mentioned when a solid, logical arguement, based in reality, is abandoned.
 
97Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:05
The fact that some of the assertions have been disproved on this very board doesn't seem to stop them from being resurrected. Maybe it is a critical thinking problem or something. Nancy Pelosi is not a member of Obama's Administration (not even a member of the Executive Branch) so when she says she supports something it simply isn't enough to make the claim about the Adminsitration, particularly when Obama has never wavered from his opposition to the Fairness Doctrine being applied to broadcasters.

To state otherwise, more than once, is to make a mockery of what it means to make an argument.
 
98Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:10
The FCC's recent code word encrusted plans...
FCC Announces Transparency Plans on a Scanned PDF

March 15, 2010

What struck me most about the executive summary of the FCC’s “National Broadband Plan” is that they published it in one of the most opaque formats going: It’s a PDF scan of a printed document.

This means you can’t cut and paste the bullet point that says:
Increase civic engagement by making government more open and transparent, creating a robust public media ecosystem and modernizing the democratic process.
Reminds me of how they released the Terri Schiavo autopsy result on PDF with c-n-p disabled. Because the examiner threw in many disclaimers that kicked holes in the 'official version of events'.
 
99Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:16
Nancy Pelosi is not a member of Obama's Administration

Where did I ever say she was? The fact is that all the leaders necessary to ram thru radio censorship are in place having expressed eagerness to suppress free speech therein. Majority whips and Speakers of the House in Congress, The leader of the commission that is making Obama's media policy was chosen knowing that he wrote a book arguing for internet censorship. Obama has already tried to drive a stake into Rush Limbaugh's heart. Where do you see anyone in position of power to stop this bias towards censorship?
 
100DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:19
Heaven forbid one should have to retype the three sentences, or use one of the many free OCR readers available. Further, .pdf files are readily readable by a free program. Would you instead prefer that they put it out in a Word document (which requires non-free software to read?)

Of all the things to dislike about what's in that document, this is a really silly one.
 
101Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:26
The fact is that all the leaders necessary to ram thru radio censorship...

Except, of course, for the Executive Branch, of which the FTC is a part. On this issue with Obama, you've literally got less than nothing.

Believe it or not, the depth and pervasiveness of your distrust of Obama is not actually proof that he is planning something which which you disagree.
 
102Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:29
Obama has already tried to drive a stake into Rush Limbaugh's heart.

While that sentence is good for some comic relief, it otherwise has no legitimacy; neither would it if you exchanged the names.
 
103Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:37
By passing health care, he tried to drive Rush out of the country!
 
104sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:41
to bad it was only a "try" and apparently unsuccessful. :(
 
105Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 14:44
The FCC's recent code word encrusted plans...

FCC Announces Transparency Plans on a Scanned PDF

March 15, 2010

What struck me most about the executive summary of the FCC’s “National Broadband Plan” is that they published it in one of the most opaque formats going: It’s a PDF scan of a printed document.

This means you can’t cut and paste the bullet point that says:

Increase civic engagement by making government more open and transparent, creating a robust public media ecosystem and modernizing the democratic process.

Reminds me of how they released the Terri Schiavo autopsy result on PDF with c-n-p disabled. Because the examiner threw in many disclaimers that kicked holes in the 'official version of events'.


felt the need to c-and-p all of post 90, since, once again, IT'S A BOLD FACED LIE.

la la la....

national broadband plan, from the Official Homepage of the FCC National Broadband Plan.

lo and behold, you click on that pesky Executive Summary section, do a quick search for the phrase "increase civic engagement", do the proper right and left clicking, and lo and behold, you can copy-and-paste the following statement:

Increase civic engagement by making government more open and transparent, creating a robust public media ecosystem and modernizing the democratic process.

again, there's not an iota of reality to the claims made in post 90. another lie.
 
106DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 14:48
(Nittery alert: you meant post 98, right?)
 
107Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 14:54
lol. yea, 98. i hate how you can't edit posts on this thing. but, yea, 98. never mind the fact i didn't understand why it was a big deal in the first place if you couldn't c-and-p, but it seems even more ludicrous to lie about it.
 
108Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 15:52
Maybe they fixed it after receiving complaints?

At any rate it's still code for forcing their views in front of those who don't chose liberal media.
 
109Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 17:12
Maybe they fixed it after receiving complaints?

more than likely, one of your less-than-reliable sources was wrong, again.

At any rate it's still code for forcing their views in front of those who don't chose liberal media.

it's not a code for anything. not everything is a code for something.
 
110Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 17:15
more than likely, one of your less-than-reliable sources was wrong, again.

Maybe. But your comment is speculative slamming, yes?

it's not a code for anything. not everything is a code for something

Exactly.
 
111Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 17:27
State Dems scrambling to deploy tea party ‘crashers’

New Hampshire Democrats are engaged in a statewide search for liberal activists willing to attend so-called tea parties on Thursday and carry signs expressing racist or fringe sentiments, a Democratic source with knowledge of the effort tells NowHampshire.com.

According to the source, who sought anonymity for fear of reprisals, the Dems’ last minute scramble reflects a growing obsession among party leaders that they need to discredit the tea party movement soon or it will overwhelm them come the November election.

Former Democratic State Party Chairman Kathy Sullivan is heading up the search, the source said. Sullivan has been calling and e-mailing liberal activists trying to get them to attend tea parties in different parts of the state and hold signs denying the authenticity of President Barack Obama’s birth certificate and make racially disparaging comments to reporters.

“This is Kathy’s [Sullivan] project,” the source told NowHampshire.com. “She is absolutely obsessed with painting the tea party people as racists.”

Similar “crash the tea party” efforts are taking place throughout the country on Tax Day.

If she pulls it off, this won’t be the first time Sullivan has endeavored to manufacture a racist controversy regarding the tea party movement. Last month Sullivan and other Democratic leaders attempted to portray a “white pride” rally in Concord held by a Massachusetts-based white supremacist organization as a tea party. Sullivan was forced to retract her bogus accusation.
 
112DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 17:28
Disgusting if true.
 
113Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 17:49
a robust public media ecosystem

modernizing the democratic process


Fine, if that's not code, you tell me what it means.

I'll give you a clue. It means forcing liberal content onto conservative sites. Ecosystem. They mean for example when I click on WorldNetDaily, TalkingpointsMemo gets put up alongside it as a counter...thus it becomes a 'robust ecosystem'.

modernizing the democratic process

I don't know what exactly that's code for but talk to a Berkley professor and he will tell you proudly that the USSR was a representative democracy. The party cadre 'represented' the people. If you think Obama's idea of modernizing the democratic process would be acceptable to the founding fathers you have another thing coming.

Does it mean voluntary civilian armies doing Acorn-like work?

Would it apply 'card check' logic favoring the union bosses to the political process favoring the Democratic machine?

The mind boggles at what shennanigans the prospect of modernizing the democratic process raises in the heart and mind of a Saul Alinski disciple.
 
114Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 17:57
Wow. I don't know how, but you crammed a month's worth of wingnuttery into just one post.

You've actually confused yourself to the point where you no longer seem to notice. You have provided no proof (none at all) for the outlandish tales of conservative woe you insist on spinning.

This is what groundless political fear looks like.
 
115Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 18:00
"I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in
front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool,
..."
 
116Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 18:04
Double wow. If I were radical, I'd start culling ideas from the
vivid wingnut imagination.
 
117Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 18:14
it's not a code for anything. not everything is a code for something - PD

I repeat, if it's not code it must mean something obvious. Tell me what 'a robust public media ecosystem' and 'modernizing the democratic process' means.

Wiseguys.
 
118Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 18:18
more than likely, one of your less-than-reliable sources was wrong, again.

Maybe. But your comment is speculative slamming, yes?


i don't believe so. numerous sources from the same poster have been debunked. it should be noted, and i realize this is semantics, but there is a difference between disparaging the source, and disparaging the poster.
 
119Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 18:22
Censorship and brownshirts, clearly.
 
120Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 18:22
And my interpretation of 'a robust media ecosystem' came right out of a book written by Cass Sunstein, the current Administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs.

Either keep up with me, in tracking these guys and what they say [yes I already linked to Sunstein and his book] or quit acting like aborigines confronted by technology, when I actually do know what these guys are saying.
 
121Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 19:05
Cass sunstein, as for as I am aware, in a staunch libertarian.
 
122Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 19:26
Yeah, that's rich. He'd like you to believe it too.

From Wikipedia:
Sunstein (along with his coauthor Richard Thaler) has elaborated the theory of libertarian paternalism. [like compassionate conservatism, the exact opposite of limited government- B] In arguing for this theory, he counsels thinkers/academics/politicians to embrace the findings of behavioral economics as applied to law, maintaining freedom of choice while also steering people's decisions in directions that will make their lives go better. With Thaler, he coined the term "choice architect."
Do real libertarians believe it's the government's job to shape your choices?
In his book Democracy and the Problem of Free Speech Sunstein says there is a need to reformulate First Amendment law. He thinks that the current formulation, based on Justice Holmes' conception of free speech as a marketplace “disserves the aspirations of those who wrote America’s founding document.”[14] The purpose of this reformulation would be to “reinvigorate processes of democratic deliberation, by ensuring greater attention to public issues and greater diversity of views.”[15] He is concerned by the present “situation in which like-minded people speak or listen mostly to one another,”[16] and thinks that in “light of astonishing economic and technological changes, we must doubt whether, as interpreted, the constitutional guarantee of free speech is adequately serving democratic goals.”[17] He proposes a “New Deal for speech...
Are libertarians against free speech?
Sunstein has argued, “We should celebrate tax day.”
Really? This is the thinking of a libertarian?
"Government agents (and their allies) might enter chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups and attempt to undermine percolating conspiracy theories by raising doubts about their factual premises, causal logic or implications for political action."[22]

Sunstein and Vermeule also analyze the practice of secret government payments to outside commentators, who are then held out as independent experts; they suggest that "government can supply these independent experts with information and perhaps prod them into action from behind the scenes," further warning that "too close a connection will be self-defeating if it is exposed."[22] Sunstein and Vermeule argue that the practice of enlisting non-government officials, "might ensure that credible independent experts offer the rebuttal, rather than government officials themselves. There is a tradeoff between credibility and control, however. The price of credibility is that government cannot be seen to control the independent experts." This position has been criticized by some commentators,[23][24] who argue that it would violate prohibitions on government propaganda aimed at domestic citizens.
Yeah, there's a real libertarian...doesn't see a role for government anywhere.
 
123sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 19:50
and while B and his ilk chastise the left for "cramming their liberal views down our throats"; they tell us to either "love" their vision of America or leave it. As they now attempt to form armed militias to oppose the federal government, they tell us we "aren't REAL Americans". They want states rights to choose vs federal mandates, while arguing that a woman has NO right to choose. They want to drill oil until there is none left, willing to destroy the ecosystem in pursuit of one more dollar for this quarters financials. They lament the deficit, though during their last administration only two spending bills were vetoed. One dealt with medical research and the other with health care for unfortunate children. While running up spending, they cut taxes (income for the federal government) and now whine about their grandchildrens "inherited debt".

What about their conduct is NOT reminiscent of a spoiled 11 year old who on his/her birthday, is whining because they ate all the cake and now there is none left?
 
124Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 21:10
Either keep up with me, in tracking these guys and what they say [yes I already linked to Sunstein and his book] or quit acting like aborigines confronted by technology, when I actually do know what these guys are saying.

you honestly have NO clue what you're saying, and your trolling attempts to insult those who know better make that quite apparent.
 
125Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 22:32
I obviously know Cass Sunstein, what he is doing and where is doing it, better than all of you put together. So I got your clue right here.
 
126sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 22:39
obiously??? What makes it so "obvious", that you "know" much of anything? You sound B, seriously dude, you SOUND like some whacko-nutcase who sees creepy-crawlies in every shadow he encounters throughout the day.

Now granted, that you see these creepies doesn't mean they aren't there. However, neither does it mean they ARE there.
 
127Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 22:48
going back on topic, let's re-visit those whacky tea party democraphics...

(and yes, i realize this is a biased blog post under the auspices of a news network. but the data remains the same.)

An astounding thirty percent of the people who identified themselves as tea partiers still believe that President Obama was born in another country, while another 29% still don't know.

that to me, screams whacko. nearly 60 percent are uncertain of a fact that has already been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

92% say that Obama is moving the country toward socialism

there's that scream again.

the rest of the numbers are in the link.
 
128astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 01:12
RE: 113

I'm surprised no one else asked for more. I'll indulge you" but talk to a Berkley professor and he will tell you proudly that the USSR was a representative democracy."

I don't know how much you know about their faculty, but if you are going to use them as a talking point, then I think you should cite a case where this has happened recently.

 
129Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 02:01
Astade

Anecdotal evidence. I've read the shocked coorespondence from conservatives wondering how any sentient being could connect the words representative democracy to such a nightmare government. And I think the professors did it for shock value.
 
130Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 02:03
Anecdotes? And how can you be certain (other than your bias) that the instructors were not making this a teaching moment by advocating a position in order to elicit student responses?
 
131Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 08:35
Anecdotal evidence

aka "zero proof".

wiki does a good job of explaining the phrase...

The expression anecdotal evidence has two distinct meanings.

(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy.

(2) Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence...

...In both cases the conclusion is unreliable; it may not be untrue, but it doesn't follow from the "evidence".

Evidence can be anecdotal in both senses: "Goat yogurt prolongs life: I heard that a man in a mountain village who ate only yogurt lived to 120."
 
132Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 08:48
Madman once raised the exact same question and I was able to answer it because I had read the one and only Bill Buckley answer a flustered conservative professor who had been handed that steaming pile, describing communism as representative democracy. A communist fellow professor dropped that absurd defense of communism on him and turned around and walked away without further discussion. Buckley was able to trace the mental contortions necessary to see the world that way for him.
 
133boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 09:48
re:127 why did you post the editorial when you could have posted poll directly or the actual CBS new story?
 
134tree
      ID: 287212811
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 10:33
can't remember if I googled for the info or the link came from another site, but that was the link I had.
 
135boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 11:02
re: 127 i wonder why Ron Paul was seen so unfavorably. I think that might be the biggest knock against the tea partiers.
 
136Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 11:25
Paranoid conservatives see boogiemen everywhere, it seems.
 
137Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 11:36
i wonder why Ron Paul was seen so unfavorably. I think that might be the biggest knock against the tea partiers.

i'm of the opinion that Tea Partiers will eventually turn against every person they anoint.

sooner or later, be it Brown, Palin, Bachmann, or whoever, the person will do something the Tea Partiers don't like (such as thinking for themselves), and they'll go from Hero to Zero in nothing flat.

now, it's entirely possible that Palin and Bachmann may be untouchable in that respect because i think they are the faces of the party and i wouldn't be surprised to see them endorsed as prez/VP from the Tea Party.

but anyone else, they'll be the flavour du jour, and then bam, they'll be kicked to the curb.
 
138Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 11:38
a couple of Tea Party articles...

Tea party leaders anxious about extremists

GOP operatives crash the tea party
 
139Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 12:15
WE HATE TAXES!!!!

ok, well, only some of us do...

According to a recent poll, only 42 percent of those who self-identify as Tea Partiers take issue with the amount of taxes they pay. �Yet while some say the Tea Party stands for �Taxed Enough Already,� most Tea Party supporters�52 percent�say their taxes are fair, the poll shows,� deadpans CBS News.

In the wake of the devastating poll, The New York Times� actually talked to some Tea Partiers about what, if anything, they believe in. �Maybe I don�t want smaller government,� said one, when confronted with the very true fact that cutting government spending would mean scaling back Social Security. �I guess I want smaller government and my Social Security. I didn�t look at it from the perspective of losing things I need. I think I�ve changed my mind.�

 
140Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 12:19
The Tea Party, at its heart, isn't about solving problems (certainly, not in any meaningful, policy-driven way). It is about venting about perceived problems.

It is the old man on the recliner, complaining about the world. Even logic doesn't apply--the complaints are an end to themselves.
 
141Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 15:53
Tea party rally upbraids 'gangster government'

Republican Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota won roars of affirmation as she accused President Barack Obama and congressional Democrats of trying to take over health care, energy, financial services and other broad swaths of the economy.

"We're on to this gangster government," she declared. "I say it's time for these little piggies to go home."


lovely.
 
142Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 16:01
Righteous yelling is a hell of a lot easier to market than the hard choices actual governing confronts one with.

As Sarah Palin found out.
 
143Frick
      ID: 93171515
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 16:17
Couldn't you say the same about Obama? Didn't he extend the Patriot Act and has yet to shut down Gitmo, 2 things he spoke against during his campaign?

 
144Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 16:32
I believe the Gitmo closing is ongoing, over the voracious objections of the GOP. God forbid we'd let innocent people go, or actually bring people to trial!

For the Patriot Act, I'm not aware that he wanted to get rid of it, but he did want to revise it.

The clear difference between the Tea Party members and Obama is that the latter is actually grappling with the tough questions (and sometimes he comes up with ideas that are just wrong). But the President is actually working on the issues. What we're hearing from the TP members is that they are foursquare against Obama, whatever that is.
 
145Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 16:41
All these people have done is have a couple of meetings, and now, according to the liberals here, they are worse than a combination of Timothy McVeigh, The Confederate Army, Lee Harvey Oswald, Al Quieda, and David Koresh rolled into one. Jeeez.
 
146Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 17:02
according to the liberals here, they are worse than a combination of Timothy McVeigh, The Confederate Army, Lee Harvey Oswald, Al Quieda, and David Koresh rolled into one. Jeeez.

no, not really. no one ever said that, but thanks for putting words into people's mouths.

what has been said, is that there is a dangerous element within the ranks of the Tea Party, and if it goes unchecked, it could blossom into something truly horrifying.
 
147Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 17:10
Timothy McVeigh, The Confederate Army, Lee Harvey Oswald, Al Quieda, and David Koresh...

In that they are almost all white, sure.

:)
 
148Frick
      ID: 93171515
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 18:57
My point was that depending on the spin you put on it, they are closer than some want to admit. The secondary point is that from the middle I just hear "My side is right, the other side is wrong. blah, blah, blah."

 
149Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 19:01
I don't believe there is very much equivalency at all. And you can tell this by looking at what the sides actually want to do.

What, besides repealing health care, abolishing the IRS and policy czars, is the Tea Party for? What positive things to they hope to accomplish in order to promote and move forward their goals?

One can have policy differences. But I don't believe that the TP members have actual platforms for progress on which they intend to run. Saying so isn't "spin."
 
150Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 21:04
TC with a great anecdote from one of the best non-fiction books by an American ever written
 
151Texas Flood
      ID: 7101698
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 22:32
Actually there were many black soldiers in the Confederate Army.
Many were conscripts, and there were also a fair amount of
enlisted men.

 
152Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 23:22
Nearly all were conscripts--and there very few of them. It wasn't until the very end of the war (March 1865) that the South made any effort at raising black soldiers to fight. By then it was too late.
 
153Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 00:32
Actually there were many black soldiers in the Confederate Army.

evidence points to there likely being no more than a few hundred who served in the Confederate Army, and even less who were trusted with firearms.
 
155Texas Flood
      ID: 7101698
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 01:46
I just recently read an article by Scott K Williams entitled Black
Confederates in the Civil War. You might want to google it. I
found it pretty interesting. Estimates ranged from 15k to 120k.
The author kind of pin points it at about 65k with about 13k
actually seeing "The Elephant". It's a pretty compelling piece about
the back service men of the south. Either way its way more than a
few hundred.
 
156astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 01:47
those poor, uninformed souls... I doubt they are proud of their service.
 
157Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 01:57
Heh.

I'll check it out, TF. I read a book-length work on the subject not long ago (can't remember the name--I think it was published by the University of Arkansas Press). The South, essentially, f*cked up by stalling on Lee's suggestion to form all-black brigades and trade freedom for fighting.
 
158Frick
      ID: 5838168
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 09:09
Re: 149

That could be, but I don't associate the Tea Party with the majority of the Republican party. I also don't assume that Animal Liberation Front or the Earth Liberation Front front with the Democratic party. Is there a lot of cross over, yes. But they don't represent the parties. They are the most vocal and often visible on the news groups, but are extrememists who don't represent the the silent majorities.

 
159sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 09:13
but if the silent majority Frick, remains silent...they most certainly will shape the debate and thus the candidacy. By extension then, they shape the party platform, direction and impetus.
 
160Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 09:47
Has anyone actually looked at the influential opinion shapers in the blogesphere and how they break down in supporting the movement?

When Ann Althouse and Glenn Reynolds are on board can it legitimately be called kooky and fringe?

I think the socialists on this board need to look down at the American surfboard and realize it is they who are hanging ten. Just cause they are very dedicated to taking over forums and they boo in unison, there aren't quite as many of them as they imagine.

Reminds me of a link from PD yesterday. The 'estimate the number of wolves' one.
 
161Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 09:54
That was a good quote, yes. That Grant was a great writer.
 
162Texas Flood
      ID: 7101698
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 09:57
astade, there were many issues and reasons for the cause of the
Civil War. Slavery was just one component, albeit a major one.
Many southern blacks volunteered for service.

Both the North and the South were reluctant to "Let" blacks join the
ranks because both sides considered them inferior and of low
quality.
 
163Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 10:00
There's no chance the North would have expected them to be unusually dedicated to the cause?
 
164Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 10:03
Frederick Douglass sure saw it that way.
 
165Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 11:25
Impeach Obama

For what? It's this contingency that de-legitimizes the Tea Party as a viable political movement. They can't seem to stick to issues that they profess to support.
 
166Frick
      ID: 5838168
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 11:34
We probably won't know until the primaries start or until the actual elections. I don't vote in primaries, but if the Tea Party candidates get crushed in the primaries, that will be the silent majority speaking. If they win the nomination, they are going to get crushed in the actual election. Who knows, I could be wrong, but my opinion is that the Tea Party are a very vocal, but small minority of conservatives.
 
169Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 12:56
Righteous moderation. Kudos.
 
170Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sat, Apr 17, 2010, 11:35
Good commentary from Rich Lowry
 
171Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 20, 2010, 15:31
The Tea Party and South Carolina: A Perfect Storm of Right Wing Nuttery
 
172Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Wed, Apr 21, 2010, 09:49
"The Government of Kenya, the world's #1 tea exporter, cordially invites you to a proper Kenyan Tea Party on Capitol Hill...
 
173Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 20:37
the original was posted by Tim Wise, on his Facebook page.

it's been reprinted in numerous sources, including here, for those few of you without Facebook...

i'm also reprinting it in this post, sans the multitude of links it contains.

Imagine: Protest, Insurgency and the Workings of White Privilege
By Tim Wise
April 20, 2010

Let’s play a game, shall we? The name of the game is called “Imagine.” The way it’s played is simple: we’ll envision recent happenings in the news, but then change them up a bit. Instead of envisioning white people as the main actors in the scenes we’ll conjure—the ones who are driving the action—we’ll envision black folks or other people of color instead. The object of the game is to imagine the public reaction to the events or incidents, if the main actors were of color, rather than white. Whoever gains the most insight into the workings of race in America, at the end of the game, wins.

So let’s begin.

Imagine that hundreds of black protesters were to descend upon Washington DC and Northern Virginia, just a few miles from the Capitol and White House, armed with AK-47s, assorted handguns, and ammunition. And imagine that some of these protesters—the black protesters--spoke of the need for political revolution, and possibly even armed conflict in the event that laws they didn’t like were enforced by the government? Would these protesters--these black protesters with guns--be seen as brave defenders of the Second Amendment, or would they be viewed by most whites as a danger to the republic? What if they were Arab-Americans? Because, after all, that's what happened recently when white gun enthusiasts descended upon the nation's capital, arms in hand, and verbally announced their readiness to make war on the country's political leaders if the need arose.

Imagine that white members of Congress, while walking to work, were surrounded by thousands of angry black people, one of whom proceeded to spit on one of those congressmen for not voting the way the black demonstrators desired. Would the protesters be seen as merely patriotic Americans voicing their opinions, or as an angry, potentially violent, and even insurrectionary mob? After all, this is what white Tea Party protesters did recently in Washington.

Imagine that a rap artist were to say, in reference to a white president: "He's a piece of *** and I told him to suck on my machine gun." Because that’s what rocker Ted Nugent said recently about President Obama.

Imagine that a prominent mainstream black political commentator had long employed an overt bigot as Executive Director of his organization, and that this bigot regularly participated in black separatist conferences, and once assaulted a white person while calling them by a racial slur. When that prominent black commentator and his sister--who also works for the organization--defended the bigot as a good guy who was misunderstood and “going through a tough time in his life” would anyone accept their excuse-making? Would that commentator still have a place on a mainstream network? Because that’s what happened in the real world, when Pat Buchanan employed as Executive Director of his group, America's Cause, a blatant racist who did all these things, or at least their white equivalents: attending white separatist conferences and attacking a black woman while calling her the n-word.

Imagine that a black radio host were to suggest that the only way to get promoted in the administration of a white president is by “hating black people,” or that a prominent white person had only endorsed a white presidential candidate as an act of racial bonding, or blamed a white president for a fight on a school bus in which a black kid was jumped by two white kids, or said that he wouldn’t want to kill all conservatives, but rather, would like to leave just enough--“living fossils” as he called them--“so we will never forget what these people stood for.” After all, these are things that Rush Limbaugh has said, about Barack Obama’s administration, Colin Powell’s endorsement of Barack Obama, a fight on a school bus in Belleville, Illinois in which two black kids beat up a white kid, and about liberals, generally.*

Imagine that a black pastor, formerly a member of the U.S. military, were to declare, as part of his opposition to a white president’s policies, that he was ready to “suit up, get my gun, go to Washington, and do what they trained me to do.” This is, after all, what Pastor Stan Craig said recently at a Tea Party rally in Greenville, South Carolina.

Imagine a black radio talk show host gleefully predicting a revolution by people of color if the government continues to be dominated by the rich white men who have been “destroying” the country, or if said radio personality were to call Christians or Jews non-humans, or say that when it came to conservatives, the best solution would be to “hang ‘em high.” And what would happen to any congressional representative who praised that commentator for “speaking common sense” and likened his hate talk to “American values?” After all, those are among the things said by radio host and best-selling author Michael Savage, predicting white revolution in the face of multiculturalism, or said by Savage about Muslims and liberals, respectively. And it was Congressman Culbertson, from Texas, who praised Savage in that way, despite his hateful rhetoric.

Imagine a black political commentator suggesting that the only thing the guy who flew his plane into the Austin, Texas IRS building did wrong was not blowing up Fox News instead. This is, after all, what Anne Coulter said about Tim McVeigh, when she noted that his only mistake was not blowing up the New York Times.

Imagine that a popular black liberal website posted comments about the daughter of a white president, calling her “typical redneck trash,” or a “whore” whose mother entertains her by “making monkey sounds.” After all that’s comparable to what conservatives posted about Malia Obama on freerepublic.com last year, when they referred to her as “ghetto trash.”

Imagine that black protesters at a large political rally were walking around with signs calling for the lynching of their congressional enemies. Because that’s what white conservatives did last year, in reference to Democratic party leaders in Congress.

In other words, imagine that even one-third of the anger and vitriol currently being hurled at President Obama, by folks who are almost exclusively white, were being aimed, instead, at a white president, by people of color. How many whites viewing the anger, the hatred, the contempt for that white president would then wax eloquent about free speech, and the glories of democracy? And how many would be calling for further crackdowns on thuggish behavior, and investigations into the radical agendas of those same people of color?

To ask any of these questions is to answer them. Protest is only seen as fundamentally American when those who have long had the luxury of seeing themselves as prototypically American engage in it. When the dangerous and dark “other” does so, however, it isn’t viewed as normal or natural, let alone patriotic. Which is why Rush Limbaugh could say, this past week, that the Tea Parties are the first time since the Civil War that ordinary, common Americans stood up for their rights: a statement that erases the normalcy and “American-ness” of blacks in the civil rights struggle, not to mention women in the fight for suffrage and equality, working people in the fight for better working conditions, and LGBT folks as they struggle to be treated as full and equal human beings.

And this, my friends, is what white privilege is all about. The ability to threaten others, to engage in violent and incendiary rhetoric without consequence, to be viewed as patriotic and normal no matter what you do, and never to be feared and despised as people of color would be, if they tried to get away with half the *** we do, on a daily basis.

Game Over.
 
174Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 20:42
nice.
 
176Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 23:06
Yeah, I remember the reaction around here when a black tea partier carried a rifle around. It wasn't the Tea Party who had a cow over it.
 
177Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 23:30
We have a cow over anyone threatening civil unrest with weaponry. We're post-racial that way.
 
178Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 23:52
imagine that even one-third of the anger and vitriol currently being hurled at President Obama...how many would be calling for further crackdowns on thuggish behavior, and investigations into the radical agendas

No need to just imagine.
"A spoiled child (Bush) is telling us our Social Security isn't safe anymore, so he is going to fix it for us. Well, here's your answer, you ungrateful whelp: [audio sound of 4 gunshots being fired.] Just try it, you little b*****d. [audio of gun being cocked]." -- A "humor bit" from the Randi Rhodes Show

"I want to go up to the closest white person and say: 'You can't understand this, it's a black thing' and then slap him, just for my mental health" -- New York city councilman Charles Barron

"..And then there's Rumsfeld who said of Iraq 'We have our good days and our bad days.' We should put this S.O.B. up against a wall and say 'This is one of our bad days' and pull the trigger." -- From a fundraising ad put out by the St. Petersburg Democratic Club

"...but the kind of people who would buy a car that increases the risk to other motorists in an accident can't be reasoned with. They're selfish and stupid. It's unfortunate that drivers must worry that their SUVs are being targeted by insulting stickers and Molotov cocktails, but one thing's for sure: It couldn't be happening to a more deserving group of people." -- Ted Rall winks at ecoterrorism

"F*** God D****d Joe the God D*mned M********king plumber! I want M***********g Joe the plumber dead." -- Liberal talk show host Charles Karel Bouley on the air.

"Republicans don't believe in the imagination, partly because so few of them have one, but mostly because it gets in the way of their chosen work, which is to destroy the human race and the planet. Human beings, who have imaginations, can see a recipe for disaster in the making; Republicans, whose goal in life is to profit from disaster and who don't give a hoot about human beings, either can't or won't. Which is why I personally think they should be exterminated before they cause any more harm." -- The Village Voice's Michael Feingold, in a theater review of all places

"I know how the 'tea party' people feel, the anger, venom and bile that many of them showed during the recent House vote on health-care reform. I know because I want to spit on them, take one of their 'Obama Plan White Slavery' signs and knock every racist and homophobic tooth out of their Cro-Magnon heads." -- The Washington Post's Courtland Milloy

My Congressman Eric Cantor, and you and your cupcake evil wife..." "Remember Eric...our judgment time, the final Yom Kippur has been given. You are a liar, you're a Lucifer, you're a pig, a greedy f*****g pig, you're an abomination, you receive my bullets in...your office, remember they will be placed in your heads. You and your children are Lucifer's abominations." -- Obama campaign contributor Norman Laboom

Or how about this movie, getting 6.5/10 stars on the IMDB:

Death of a President (2006): Years after the assassination of President George W. Bush in Chicago, an investigative documentary examines that as-yet-unsolved crime.































“If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard,” - Obama's Deputy Chief of Staff Jim Messina

‘If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun’ - Obama





 
179Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 00:11
A series of "they did it too!" images. Nice. These posts are sounding more and more like my 12-year-old yelling about his 6-year-old sister getting away with stuff.

Of course, most of the problems the Tea Party have are completely imagined. I'm not saying "death to the President" is warranted, but post 9-11 Bush enjoyed virtually unmatched popularity from both parties, which he pissed away fighting wars he tricked us into fighting, called into question the patriotism of half the country, to say nothing of pissing away the deficit handed to him by Clinton.

What has Obama done? Pushed for a stimulus bill most economists say has saved millions of jobs. Passed a health care bill the CBO calls revenue-neutral and which will save thousands of lives and save millions of work-hours for businesses annually. Negotiated a new arms agreement with Russia. Initiated a pullout from Iraq. Established a credit card bill of rights, expanded small business tax cuts, nullified Bush's efforts to keep presidential records more secret, increased funding for national parks, expanded Pell Grants, expanded AmeriCorps, worked to overturn the awful Ledbetter decision, increased weatherization funding, appointed several Republicans to his cabinet, suspended federal taxes on unemployment benefits....

Stupid marxist. He's only doing all these good things to sucker us into letting him take down the government! Unlike Republicans, who are very clear and up front about taking down the government.
 
180Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 00:15
You guys raised the challenge...

imagine that even one-third of the anger and vitriol currently being hurled at President Obama...
 
181Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 00:21
"You guys" sounds more like "I can't be bothered to differentiated between anyone else here."

Meanwhile, you lopped off the half of the sentence which was the point of the piece in question.
 
182Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 10:33
Unlike Republicans, who are very clear and up front about taking down the government.

You stage a socialist revolution and Republicans are supposed to shut up and take it patriotic-style. What? But you are way too late to the 'conserve the government' boat to have access to that button.
 
183Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 10:44
We staged nothing. A moderate Democrat won an election overwhelmingly, mostly because the country was sick and tired of the partisan crap being churned out by the GOP. Some on the Far Right now want to whine about the consequences of it in their minds.

 
184Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 10:58
The thing that has surprised, startled me even, is the rapid orwellian loss of word meaning. I don't know if you are deliberately doing it or are unaware of it, but you are less and less arguing and more and more denying that words even have any meaning outside of your purpose of the moment.

How does any supporter of Nancy Pelosi get to decry partisanship?

That is just beyond ridiculous.
 
185Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 11:02
Don't want to admit you have converted to marxism? Don't want to defend Marx' dictum?

"Marxism? I banish you from my reality and substitute it with my own."
 
186Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 11:05
is the rapid orwellian loss of word meaning.

Seriously--you are projecting again. With the next post you call me out for not continuing to defend Obama against your bastardization of the word "marxism."

The thought exercise is simple: If Obama (not Pelosi, who I have never claimed to support--fact which yuo seem to "forget") were actually Marxist, his proposals on virtually all levels would be completely different. He would not, for example, force people to buy a product provided by a private company.

You can no longer distinguish between projected fears and reality anymore.
 
187Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 11:15
I wonder when Tree will say "hitting a new low" with the pictures in post 178.
 
188Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 11:15
I wonder when Tree will say "hitting a new low" or PD saying "juvenile" with the pictures in post 178.
 
189Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 11:29
That is only a stepping stone to single-payer, and you cannot deny that with even a shred of credibility.
 
190Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 11:40
Its funny when pictures of people saying "death to Bush" all of a sudden become juvenile. I have posted on many occasions that some of these post are schoolyard antics. Funny that you finally realize that when the shoes on the other foot.
 
191Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 11:42
188/190: Asked, then answered, yes? No one called them juvenile, yet you are responding as if someone on the "left" did so, confirming your bias.


Britain is Marxist, Baldwin?
 
192Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 12:30
Imagine the Tea Party was a black movement.
Imagine that hundreds of black protesters were to descend upon Washington DC and Northern Virginia, just a few miles from the Capitol and White House, armed with AK-47s, assorted handguns, and ammunition. And imagine that some of these protesters —the black protesters — spoke of the need for political revolution, and possibly even armed conflict in the event that laws they didn’t like were enforced by the government? Would these protester — these black protesters with guns — be seen as brave defenders of the Second Amendment, or would they be viewed by most whites as a danger to the republic? What if they were Arab-Americans?


Imagine that white members of Congress, while walking to work, were surrounded by thousands of angry black people, one of whom proceeded to spit on one of those congressmen for not voting the way the black demonstrators desired. Would the protesters be seen as merely patriotic Americans voicing their opinions, or as an angry, potentially violent, and even insurrectionary mob?


Imagine that a rap artist were to say, in reference to a white president: “He’s a piece of sh;t and I told him to suck on my machine gun.”


Imagine that a black radio host were to suggest that the only way to get promoted in the administration of a white president is by “hating black people,” or that a prominent white person had only endorsed a white presidential candidate as an act of racial bonding, or blamed a white president for a fight on a school bus in which a black kid was jumped by two white kids, or said that he wouldn’t want to kill all conservatives, but rather, would like to leave just enough—“living fossils” as he called them—“so we will never forget what these people stood for.”


Imagine that a black pastor, formerly a member of the U.S. military, were to declare, as part of his opposition to a white president’s policies, that he was ready to “suit up, get my gun, go to Washington, and do what they trained me to do.”


Imagine a black radio talk show host gleefully predicting a revolution by people of color if the government continues to be dominated by the rich white men who have been “destroying” the country, or if said radio personality were to call Christians or Jews non-humans, or say that when it came to conservatives, the best solution would be to “hang ‘em high.” And what would happen to any congressional representative who praised that commentator for “speaking common sense” and likened his hate talk to “American values?”


Imagine a black political commentator suggesting that the only thing the guy who flew his plane into the Austin, Texas IRS building did wrong was not blowing up Fox News instead.


Imagine that a popular black liberal website posted comments about the daughter of a white president, calling her “typical redneck trash,” or a “whore” whose mother entertains her by “making monkey sounds.”


Imagine that black protesters at a large political rally were walking around with signs calling for the lynching of their congressional enemies.


In other words, imagine that even one-third of the anger and vitriol currently being hurled at President Obama, by folks who are almost exclusively white, were being aimed, instead, at a white president, by people of color.
The political right complains an awful lot about people who generalize the tea party based on the activities and behavior of a few. But we know from history that the same political right is not nearly so discerning as they demand of their political opponents. If it were a liberal black movement behaving exactly the same way, with the same relative quantities of ignorance and absurdity we all know exactly how they would be judged by the very same people who are crying foul now.
 
193Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 12:51
There is one chicken who really came home to roost for good, Marx having been their native born son.

Every bad thing about the marxist nanny state happens there first. A good place to see what is coming.

1) Absorbed into a globalist entity and lost almost all their sovereignty.

2) Disarmed and helpless to every home invader who gets drunk and violent and/or horny.

3) Big brother watching you from every street corner.

4) Death panel named 'NICE' deciding who lives and dies.

5) People dying in the waiting lines of oversold state-run medicine.

6) Low wages. Brains and the rich mostly all driven out of the country.

7) Governing party usually consisting of openly marxist players.

8) George Galloway types in power and always siding with the country's enemies and against Britain's interests.

9) Far left union officials and communist community organizations constantly sabotaging the country.

10) Nationalization of huge swaths of the utilities and industries.

Etc.
 
194Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:00
MITH

Race has nothing whatsoever to do with it anyway.

The only reason race has become the banner of the left is because they have no other virtue. That's assuming their anti-racism is even factual.

When liberals have already thrown morals under the bus and proclaimed any deviancy goes, where are they going to go for their sense of moral superiority?

Love of animals? That they are prompt? Patriotism? There's a real hard case to make.

No, all they are left with is to desperately and loudly claim the moral highground wrt race. The only problem is that their opponents are just as anti-racism as they are AND they actually have other virtues.
 
195Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:09
Oh I claim a lot more moral high ground for the left than just with race issues.
 
196Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:36
Go ahead, strut yer stuff.
 
197Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 13:45
I wonder when Tree will say "hitting a new low" with the pictures in post 178.

it's a disgusting sentiment. wishing death on an American president, is, IMHO, a very anti-American wish.

You stage a socialist revolution

it was a fairly contest election, and pretty much proved the principles of democracy. just because YOU didn't vote doesn't mean it wasn't a fair election.

Imagine the Tea Party was a black movement.

come on MITH, i posted that same thing not 20 posts earlier! :oD lol

post 193 and all it's silliness

you read/watch too many dystopian movies/tv shows/books

nothing in that post is real. it's all imaginary in your head.




 
198Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 14:05
strut yer stuff

I could start with such dishonesty as the disingenuous inference that only the left is guilty of using race as a wedge issue.
 
199Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 14:24
"In fact and needless to say, it is the Democrats who have turned the Confederate flag into a federal issue, because they relish nothing more than being morally indignant. Not about abortion, adultery, illegitimacy, the divorce rate, or a president molesting an intern and lying to federal investigators. Indeed , not about anything of any practical consequence. Democrats stake out a clear moral position only on the issue of slavery. Of course, when it mattered, they were on the wrong side of that issue, too." - AC
 
200Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 14:40
I'm not interested in entertaing you seething unChristian hate for half of America today Baldwin.
 
201Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 15:01
Oh that's right. The left are the hate police. It's everywhere and they are here to save us.

I thot we covered that in #178.

 
202DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 15:06
You're conflating what other people say with what we here on this board say (as you so often do). On the other hand, we're generally pointing out what YOU say.

Do you see the difference?
 
204Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 15:51
If I were the hate police, I'd bother with you today.
 
205Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 15:55
 
206Baldwin
      ID: 30327249
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 18:24
You are.
 
207Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Sat, Apr 24, 2010, 19:42
That's a load. Post 206 and just about every other post I've made in criticism of Tea Partiers is no different from every post you've made over the years about liberal protestors of all stripes - except that you unabashedly insist that the behavior you point out and your accompanying comments can be generally applied to to the lot of them.
 
209Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 00:46
 
210Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Apr 27, 2010, 10:04
it's good to be the king (or queen)!

Show me the Money!!!
 
211Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, May 05, 2010, 12:36
The Tea Party Has a Race Problem

When Tea Partyers say they want their country back, what do they mean? Back from what and from whom? When they say they want this country to return to the Constitution, what's their evidence that the nation has run off its Constitutional rails? When they call themselves patriots and declare that they would be willing to fight for their freedom, again, I ask, from what and from whom?
 
212Boldwin
      ID: 183112613
      Wed, May 05, 2010, 15:33
Marxists.
 
213Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, May 05, 2010, 16:09
i do believe Jonathan Swift was speaking of the Tea Party, all their supporters, and those who continue to make up tripe about Barack Obama when he said "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Posts 206 and 212, unyielding in their depth, speak to that.
 
214Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, May 10, 2010, 11:45
Tea Partiers again show an astonishing level of class...

The esteemed film critic and prolific tweeter criticized five kids who wore American flag T-shirts and bandannas to school on Cinco de Mayo. The Tea Party beast was awakened, and mocked his recent cancer and the disfigurement it left him.

some of those statements:
I mean honestly. How many pieces need to fall off @ebertchicago before he gets the hint to shut the (f*ck) up”
and
You know, @ebertchicago, I’m not as expert on flag etiquette as you. Tell me, which do I fly when you die of cancer?”
and
"I was all set to slap the taste out of @ebertchicago's fat face, but then i remembered. And I was like...sweet."
 
215J-Bar
      ID: 514281022
      Mon, May 10, 2010, 23:49
I am wanting desperately to understand: a few tea party people may not act appropriately and it is ok and encouraged by some to denigrate the whole group. This same group says that it is abominable for a group of people (Muslims) to be criticized for the actions of their more radical branches.

Sounds to me like both are wrong but I guess some posters are so biased that they cannot see the hypocrisy.
 
216Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 01:05
a few tea party people may not act appropriately and it is ok and encouraged by some to denigrate the whole group.

there is a pattern of dickish behavior - from mocking Ebert's cancer to insulting a homeless man to some bigoted over tones to signs, attitudes, and remarks - at nearly every possible turn.

i've seen Muslims speak out against other Muslims, arguing that there's is a religion of peace, and the fanatics have bastardized it.

i have yet to see a Tea Party tell another one that the racist sign he's holding isn't cool.
 
217J-Bar
      ID: 514281022
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 01:15
And you know that is bull, the radical few are denounced loudly and often.
 
218Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 04:03
Not at all. At best, there is an embarrassed silence--like an uncle telling nigger jokes.
 
219Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 08:28
And you know that is bull, the radical few are denounced loudly and often.

show me.

show me where they're being denounced by their fellow Tea Partiers.

Show me where Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter say "we don't need that sort of hatred in our Tea Party. we don't need people threatening to overthrow the government with armed insurrection. this is a democratically elected presidency, and is not Socialism."

show me those things.
 
220Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 09:28
I can't agree with 217 either. I was impressed when Amy Kremer (after a bit of prodding to do so by the panel) denounced racist elements within the tea party:

[discussion turns to race at the 4:00 mark, just in time to catch Hasselback's gem at 4:03]

But it also occurred to me that I this was the first time I'd seen any such public expression from any corner of the movement's leadership.

And even in her case, her vision of what the party is about is obviously quite detatched from reality. Almost every time she speaks in that 7 minute long segment, she stresses that the tea party movement is only about fiscal issues, and that social issues "have nothing to do with it". Obviously everyone who has seen even the most favorable coverage of their rallies knows that this isn't true.

J-Bar, if the radical few really are denounced loudly and often, you should be able to provide numerous other examples of loud denunciations?
 
221Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 11:27
Kicking out a racist from the tea party.
 
222Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 11:43
Kicking out a racist from the tea party.

no, not really.
 
223Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 11:56
Anyone watching that video will see how 'welcomed' racists and democrat inflitrators are.
 
224DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 12:29
Methinks it's time for another Venn diagram.
 
225boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 13:48

And even in her case, her vision of what the party is about is obviously quite detatched from reality. Almost every time she speaks in that 7 minute long segment, she stresses that the tea party movement is only about fiscal issues, and that social issues "have nothing to do with it". Obviously everyone who has seen even the most favorable coverage of their rallies knows that this isn't true.


really? what social issues?
 
226Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 13:54
Virtually all issues in the United States have a social issue component, but most are social issues with fiscal components which tag along. While Tea Party members might talk about health care (for example) as a fiscal issue, it is actually a social issue.
 
227Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 14:25
And their objection to all of them is that the government is spending too much attempting to do too many things that they were never intended to be tasked with by the FF.
 
228Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 14:43
I daresay that the biggest government programs supported by the tea party:

-a standing federal army
-Medicare
-Social Security.

How do you think the Founding Fathers felt about these?

And yeah: The cafeteria founding fatherism by the Right is annoying to me.
 
229Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 15:43
I'm not aware of the fiscal aspects of the current debates regarding the 2nd Amendment or birtherism or President Obama's religion or alleged similarities with Islamist terrorists.

That said, the video linked in #221 is awesome. Kudos to that camera operator for standing up (though I was a little disapointed that he tried to kick the guy out - he had just as much of a right to be there as anyone else).

So after 13 months, I've now seen two examples (both in the past few days) of tea partiers standing up to their crazy(er) wing. Doesn't compare very well with the dozens of videos I've seen of racially and otherwise offensive images that I never saw challenged, but it's good to see that some are at the very least fed up with all the bad press that stuff generates. Better late than never. Lets hope it's a trend that ascends into fashion among that group.

Despite Boldy's claims, I don't believe it's quite there yet, but I'm encouraged.
 
230Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 19:11
BTW you can find countless black Tea Partiers on you-tube who will attest they've never ever experienced what 'you guys' claim is the norm there.
 
231Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 19:19
BTW you can find countless black Tea Partiers on you-tube who will attest they've never ever experienced what 'you guys' claim is the norm there.

funny, i've seen but one. meanwhile, i've seen lots of evidence that there is a bigoted tinge to the Tea Party.
 
232Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 19:29
As countless polls have shown the Tea Party members are the far right, which means they are more white, older, and wealthier than the average American. They claim to dislike the GOP, mostly because the GOP hasn't had much electoral success lately. They proudly carry on the very same positions which has cost the GOP badly in three straight elections.

Rebranding yourself and going loud isn't a recipe for electoral wins.

As noted elsewhere, they are the "overwhelmingly white, crypto-corporate paranoiacs that accompany every ascendancy of liberalism within U.S. government."
 
233Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Tue, May 11, 2010, 21:20
Rebranding yourself and going loud isn't a recipe for electoral wins. - PD

It worked for marxists...err...progressives...err...democrats.

And of course you would be just horified if democrats could muster fired up campaign crowds like the Tea Partiers can.
 
234Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Wed, May 12, 2010, 21:51
Steyn on America
Tuesday, 23 March 2010

HAPPY WARRIOR
from National Review

Recently, in yet another example of the reforming zeal that swept Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger into office, California’s Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repair was merged with the Bureau of Home Furnishings and Thermal Insulation to create a new streamlined, more efficient bureau called – wait for it, stand well back – the Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repair, Home Furnishings and Thermal Insulation.

Why not the Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repair, Home Furnishings, Ladies’ Lingerie and Gift Wrap? I used to be able to whistle the main themes from the Hungarian Communist-era smash hit The State Department Store (a proletarian operetta, with none of the counts and princesses), but really The State Department Store Regulatory Agency is an even better jest. A Californian reader of mine, standing slack-jawed before the “Permit to Sell Bedding” hanging at the back of his local Wal-Mart, channeled a bit of (misattributed) George Orwell: We sleep soundly in our beds at night because rough bureaucrats from the Bureau of Home Furnishings stand ready to do violence to those who would sell us unlicensed pillow cases. “The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation,” Pierre Trudeau famously told Canadians, but evidently it does if you’re consummating your same-sex marriage on an unregulated counterpane.

There is a deal of ruin in a nation, but by the time you’ve got a Bureau of Home Furnishings you’re getting awful near the limit. Of all the petty regulatory burdens piled upon the citizen in the Age of Micro-Tyranny, I dislike especially the food handling licensing requirements in an ever multiplying number of jurisdictions from Virginia to Oregon that have put an end to such quintessentially American institutions as the bake sale and the lemonade stand. So civic participation withers, and a government monopoly not just of power but of basic social legitimacy is all that remains.
Yet, even as they approach the moment of triumph, there is great peril here for the Democrats. I believe it was Rich Lowry who first noted, that unlike the culture wars of the early Nineties over “God, guns and gays”, this time round conservatives have succeeded in making big government itself a cultural issue. Yet it goes beyond that. Every day, more and more people understand that there’s not enough money to pay for this stuff, and there never will be - in other words, that the entire shtick is a fraud. That’s an ever tougher sell for Democrats, particularly now that, in the cold gray light of the long morning after, “hope” and “change” are revealed to be merely an abbreviation for a vast overstaffed Bureau of Hope and Change, whose Assistant Directors of Change and Deputy Commissioners of Hope are on a quarter-million per annum and contemplating retirement at 55 from their three-year study group to examine whether we need a new Hope Application form and Change Permit.

In this election season, if you’re not committed to fewer programs from fewer agencies with fewer bureaucrats on less pay, you’re not serious. I’d say we need something closer to Thatcher-scale privatization in Britain 30 years ago, or Sir Roger Douglas’ transformative Rogernomics in New Zealand in the mid-Eighties, or post-Soviet Eastern Europe’s economic liberalization in the early Nineties. Aside from the restoration of individual liberty, a side benefit to closing down or outsourcing the Bureau of Government Agencies and the Agency of Government Bureaus is that you’d also be in effect privatizing public-sector unions, which are now one of the biggest threats to freedom and civic integrity.

But, if that all sounds a bit extreme and if 2010 is just a slightly swingier-than-usual midterm, then things are going to get grim very quickly. In my piece a few weeks back, I noted that Europe’s somewhat agreeable decline had been cushioned by America, and that the problem with American decline is that this time round there’s no rising power volunteering to do the cushioning. Because of the American security umbrella, countries like Germany were able to transfer military spending to social programs. Lacking that option for Obamacare, the Democrats propose to “control costs” by refusing to acknowledge them: Medicare reimbursement levels will be “capped”, which means that an ever greater number of doctors will cease to perform services for which they are not properly remunerated. And wait till we’ve Medicared the rest of the economy.

In an election cycle or two, the demographic balance between wealth creators and state dependents will shift decisively in favor of the latter, further disincentivizing the former from the thankless task of feeding the leviathan. In an economically moribund America, the Age of Entitlement Insolvency will hit sooner rather than later, and pimply burger flippers will rebel or flee rather than prop up entire Florida retirement communities. Faced with a choice between unsustainable entitlements and an armed forces of global reach, the United States, as Europe did, will abandon military capability and toss the savings into the great sucking maw of social spending. That, in turn, will make for not only a more dangerous world but a more vulnerable America that, to modify President Bush, will wind up having to fight them over here because we no longer have the capacity to fight them over there. From the state-licensed, SEIU-staffed bake sale to Armageddon - in nothing flat.

2010 is not necessarily the last but is at least the ante-penultimate chance at avoiding this fate. If we choose otherwise, well, we have regulated our bed, and we will have to lie in it.

from National Review
 
235sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, May 12, 2010, 22:19
seems they need a history lesson.

Under the previous Rep Admin, what happened to the size of government?

And under the previous Democratic Administration, what happened to the size of government?

Nuff said.
 
236J-Bar
      ID: 554411221
      Wed, May 12, 2010, 23:16
and that is the reason the GOP did not fair well in the last three elections. But due to 9/11 and the universal opinion to create the DHS and the subsequent military buildup to be able to handle two contingencies it was perceived to be necessary.

8yrs increase in deficit 4.4 trillion

1 yr increase in deficit 2 trillion estimated 4 trillion by end of yr 2

Back to the thread:

All tea party members are racist because of a few radicals is the belief from the same people that argue extensively that your closest friends, mentors, appointees, and spiritual leaders beliefs don't necessarily reflect on your own. I would contend the latter are far more reflective than some guy you don't even know standing next to you at a rally for a common cause ie government spending.
 
237Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, May 13, 2010, 00:27
All tea party members are racist

no one said that.
 
238Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Thu, May 13, 2010, 06:47
All tea party members are racist

If you have to wildly exaggerate your political opponents' positions in order to come up with a decent counter-argument in response, it says an awful lot more about the validity of your position than theirs. Come back when you feel like responding to what people are actually saying, rather than what you wish they'd say.

Back to the thread, indeed. Clearly you meant to write "back to J-Bar's imagination."
 
239Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, May 13, 2010, 09:29
And of course you would be just horified if democrats could muster fired up campaign crowds like the Tea Partiers can.

As I recall, you mocked the energy of the crowds Obama was whipping up. So which is it: Dems have no energy, or Dems have energy but it is misplaced?

Isn't this another example of selective amnesia to try to prove a talking more that has proven more important than the truth?
 
240Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, May 13, 2010, 11:07
the demographic balance between wealth creators and state dependents will shift decisively in favor of the latter.......

From the state-licensed, SEIU-staffed bake sale to Armageddon


Doeas Steyn realize the contradiction here? In his haste to use every strawman argument he can, he fails to understand that without a working middle class(SEIU), there can't be any wealth creators.

SEIU workers are neither state dependent nor state-licensed. They are the Service Employees International Union. I'm not a big fan of unions, but that's a completely different argument than a demographic balance between wealth creators and state dependents.

The fact that less than half of SEIU members are state employed negates any claim that they are state dependents or state-licensed.

And just what is a wealth creator? A business owner who provides jobs? Last week I signed two contracts for projects that are HUD financed - Layton Health Care and Brickstone Apartments. These are private facilities that provide for thousands of jobs. HUD projects mandate a minimum wage of $16 an hour for installers, and certified payroll must be provided. Now, if I do all the installation myself, I create wealth for myself. If I hire several installers, they won't get wealthy, but they won't be state dependent either. It's the same amount of money either way.

Mark Steyn is a writer. An elitist. I doubt he's ever done an honest days work in his life. It's humorous how anyone could take him seriously commenting on people who change bedpans, drive school buses, or clean office buildings.
Is he a wealth creator? Has he taken any of the millions he's made to create jobs beyond a few personal assistants and a manager? He's a fraud.



 
241Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Thu, May 13, 2010, 11:10
Nice post, PV!
 
242Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Thu, May 13, 2010, 12:17
As I recall, you mocked the energy of the crowds Obama was whipping up. So which is it: Dems have no energy, or Dems have energy but it is misplaced?

This is you trying to hang on to past glory. That energy is long dissipated.
 
243Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, May 13, 2010, 19:47
LOL! I think your memory, like John McCain's has failed you.

About 35% of the country is Democratic. About 30% is Republican. Do you honestly feel that the GOP will be able to muster support for its candidates in November once Obama hits the campaign trail, knowing that they are already in the hole?

Remember the health care bill? Dead in the water until Obama bucked everyone (including his own party) to bring it back and pass it, over the strangled cries of Republicans getting run over by the "past glory."

Man, are you in for a surprise.
 
244J-Bar
      ID: 504141323
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 00:14
Let me rephrase because there have been some good points made about the use of the word all. I should have said; 'the majority of the focus that has been given the tea party (from detractors) is based on race and the possibly racist views of a small majority of radicals in the movement.'

 
245Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 07:15
Closer, J-Bar, but still off. I think most detractors recognize that the tea partiers with "possibly racist views" are a minority (be it large or small), but a vocal and visible enough one that it sometimes is able to hijack the movement - largely because there has been so little of the kind of denunciation from within that we talked about in posts 215 to 229.

Personally, bigotry and racism is only one of the issues I take with the tea party movement, and I'm not entirely sure that it's their biggest problem.
 
246Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 07:39
Bronze #243.
 
247Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 07:48
Bronze #243 and #2 in the 2010 Elections thread, in which B claimed a fifty to sixty seat gain in the House for Republicans.
 
248Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 09:52
It's trending my way.
 
249Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 17:41
 
250Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, May 25, 2010, 17:10
and...can we get a big "ooops" from the Tea Party...

Vaughn Ward, a GOP congressional candidate in Idaho who garnered the coveted endorsement of tea party icon Sarah Palin, has previously drawn flak for allegedly cribbing policy statements from the platforms of other candidates. That scandal was enough to prompt elected Republicans to start pressuring him to drop out of the race prior to next Tuesday's primary balloting. And now the heat is back on for Ward, after a GOP state Senate candidate named Lucas Brumbach has released a damning mash-up video appearing to show Ward borrowing whole lines from Barack Obama's famous 2004 Democratic Convention address:



the article also details other issues facing several Tea Party candidates.
 
251Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, May 25, 2010, 17:15
Wow. I've always said that Obama has strong conservative strains in his speeches. Too strong for Republicans to resist, it seems.

Baumbach should have halved the ad and thereby made it more punchy. And gotten rid of the snark at the end.

But there is no better way to poison a GOP member than to tie him to Obama.
 
252Boldwin
      ID: 404412616
      Wed, May 26, 2010, 17:48
I've always said that Obama has strong conservative strains in his speeches.

They'll all try and get a leg over the other side of the fence if they can get away with it. It's only words.
 
253Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, May 26, 2010, 19:32
It's only words.

As is everything you've ever posted here. Should I treat it with the same dismissive tone you treat Obama's words?
 
254DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, May 26, 2010, 19:55
I'll take "yes" for $1000, Alex.
 
255Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Jul 31, 2010, 23:30
The Great Teabag Sundering is upon us!



I even transcribed it:
Beck: OK, Amy [Kremer chair of the Tea Party Express] I have to ask you, there’s been controversy surrounding the Tea Party Express: Mark Williams [former Tea Party Express chair]. He is a guy who said, Allah is a ‘monkey-god’. He said all Muslims are animals. He said we need to repeal the 13th and 14th Amendments. He said things about the President of the United States – all of them are inexcusable.

Kremer: Right.

Beck: He is no longer with you organization. Kremer: No, he is not. He is no longer with our organization; he resigned as chairman well over a month ago and is no longer with the organization at all.

Beck: Ok. And do you reject those statements and those ideas behind those statements?

Kremer: Absolutely. And not only myself, but the Tea Party Express rejects those statements and those ideas. Mark Williams, while I don’t agree with him, I certainly would have never said them and I wish he wouldn’t have said them, he did that on his own behalf, on his own blog, it’s not representative of the Tea Party Express or the tea party movement and I agree with everyone else, that that kind of thing will not be tolerated.

Beck: Did you know Mark?

Kremer: Yes I know Mark.

Beck: And you didn’t –I mean some people can hide you know, things, like crazy. But you didn’t see that coming at all from him?

Kremer: Mark is –I mean he –Mark is a radio talk show host. He is sensational, he is a shock jock. He says things in ways you nor I would say them.

Beck: Hold on just a second, I’m a recovering shock jock. I got into radio when I was 13 years old and believe me, Howard Stern has –well, no. He outdid me, but in my wildest dreams I would have never said Allah is a monkey-god or all Muslims are animals or we should repeal the 13th or 14th Amendment. Shock jock doesn’t cover that.

Kremer: Glenn, that is Mark Williams personality and I can’t sit here and make excuses for him. I mean he is no longer with our Tea Party Express and you know, I’m not gonna comment for Mark Williams. I don’t agree with what he said, the Tea Party Express doesn’t agree with it and that’s not what we wanna base it on.

Beck: Amy I hate to hammer you on this because I understand he is gone but if you had somebody who was leading it who was saying things like that, and in the current atmosphere – not way in the past – but in the current atmosphere, how do you make sure that your members know [that] ‘we will rat you out. Even if you are a shock jock, we don’t want you to be anywhere near us, because we do not agree with those things?’

Kremer: Well that’s exactly why Mark Williams resigned right after the monkey-god comment, or blog post on his blog. And I was on the view back in May and I said then and I’ll say it again that we’re not gonna tolerate racism. There’s no place for it in this movement. Not only myself, but the people in the movement aren’t gonna tolerate it. And I mean I’ve had conversations with him about it. But again, I can’t speak for him, but I know that we at Tea Party Express do not – we are not racists, we are not gonna tolerate that, we have, you know, several African Americans, William Marcus, William Owens, Kevin Jackson, even Herman Kaine (sp) heads a part of Tea Pary Express and participated with us. We’re actually having a black conservative event in Washington next week that I think Herman Kaine just confirmed at. Our members know that that’s not what Tea Party Express is about.

Beck: Amy thank you very much we’ll be back in just a second.


Beck: Back with Mark Scotta (sp) Jenny Beth Martin, Matt Kibbe (sp) and Yvonne Donnelly (sp). I guess, Jenny, lemme come to you because, Tea Party Express… Tea Party Patriots… there is the confusion between the two and the statements that we just heard from Amy about a former president of The Tea Party Express are horrifying.

Martin: They are horrifying. And we’ve known this, Tea Party Patriots has known about this from September of last year. We put out a statement, publicly distancing ourselves from that entire organization because they wouldn’t distance themselves from him. And just last week Amy Kremer said she wouldn’t throw a fellow conservative under the bus, talking about Mark Williams. If that happened in our organization, with one of our national coordinators, they’d be out and it would be on public record that we would not tolerate that.

Beck: So does your organization condemn that organization now?

Martin: We do. They knew last year that he was making comments that were unacceptable about the president. And they stood by him.

Beck: Let me tell you- does anybody here buy into the... well he’s a radio talk show host thing?

Entire Panel: Not at all, absolutely not.

Beck: That conversation with Amy- I’m sorry Amy but it just doesn’t ring true to me and it’s just not right.

Martin: When you’re a spokesperson for an organization or the chairman for the organization, that’s so public, like the Tea Party Express or Tea Party Patriots or Freedom Works, any of these, we don’t have our own blog and our own voice. Everything we say is under a microscope and will be associated with our organization and the movement.
Clearly Beck and these other members of the teabagger leadership deserve credit for publicly acknowledging and confronting the cancer within their ranks, rather than tow the party line touted by Boldwin and others here that racist elements within the movement exist only on it's outermost fringe and that the racist images we do see are a the result of leftist media sensationalizing and liberal plants. Mark Williams was the chairman of the organization and quite obviously not a liberal mole.

That said, I'm going to have to go back and look at some of the references to the Tea Party Express by other groups. I don't ever recall hearing about one teabag organization distancing itself from, much less criticizing another, as Jenny Beth Martin claims the Tea Party Patriots have.

And of course Amy Kremer, the new Tea Party Express chair, who Beck runs down for tolerating Mark Williams' racist infiltration of her organization was on The View just a few months ago (see post 220) demanding that racest elements are not welcome in her organization. While I did note that her comments seemed detatched from what should be plainly obvious to any observer, I credited her with the first ernest-sounding public address from movement leadership denouncing inside racist elements that I had heard. And not knowing anything about the differences between the various organizations, I believed her. So much for that.

I won't make the same mistake I did with Kremer in affording blind benefit of doubt that their conviction is genuine. It would have been nice to hear just one comment regarding Breitbart and/or Limbaugh or other race-obsessed rightist pundits. But then again, they did choose the Glenn (the president has a deep-seated hatred for white people) Beck Program to take this stance public.

Also - wasn't the FNC-sponsored bus tour last year called the Tea Party Express? Is that a coincidence or was that how that organization began?
 
256Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 18:09
The Sundering reaches the Maine chapter.
In the past few days, tea party websites in the Pine Tree State have offered glimpses of what some are calling a coup at the one of the state's largest tea party groups, The Maine Patriots.

On Tuesday night, Amy Hale -- one of the leaders of the Patriots group -- posted an odd message to the group's website, suggesting that she'd been forced to give up control of the site, according to media reports (the post has since been removed):
I was cornered in the parking lot by 10+ people and told that bad things would happen to me if I did not give them the password and hand over Maine Patriots. Therefore, I no longer have control of Maine Patriots. Amy
Hale's police report made the Central Maine Morning Sentinal:
Police are investigating a complaint by the founder of the Maine Patriots website, Amy Hale of Hartland, who said she was surrounded by a group of people and threatened until she relinquished control of the site.

The site is reportedly popular among supporters of the Maine Tea Party movement.

Hale, in a message Wednesday night on the site, wrote that more than 10 people cornered her and told her that "bad things" would happen to her if she did not give them the password to the website for the Maine Patriots.

Her message, which was posted on the Maine Patriots' website, mainepatriots.ning.com, matches what she reported to police, Maine State Police Trooper Jon Brown said.

Her online statement was "I was cornered in the parking lot by 10+ people and told that bad things would happen to me if I did not give them the password and hand over Maine Patriots. Therefore, I no longer have control of Maine Patriots."

The Maine Patriots' website features a Fox News feed, blog, history section and updates on Tea Party events. The flag image on its home page is inscribed with: "I am a proud Maine Patriot dedicated to restoring the Constitution, maintaining & defending state sovereignty and saving our Republic!"


Although the investigation is ongoing, messages posted on a related site, Maine Refounders, at paintmainered.ning.com, suggested the incident followed an internal dispute about Hale's leadership.

Joseph DeCoste of North Anson has a website, teapartymaine.org, that links to Hale's. He said he was familiar with the "growing pains" of Maine Patriots.

"The things that are happening are overshadowing the larger picture," he said. "There's very much concern that this type of in-fighting and dispute between siblings of the movement is clouding the big story."
Downeast.com:
A message posted on the sister site Maine Refounders [requires registration -mith] provides some more details, including that this appears to be an internal Tea Party dispute and that the police are now involved:
Members,

It saddens me to have to make this announcement. Yesterday, a group of members of Maine Patriots extorted the passwword and took control of Maine Patriots' website. Amy is working with the parent site Ning to correct this. A police report is being filed.

Please keep Amy Hale in your thoughts and prayers. She will need our support to get through this. If you have any questions, please call or email me or Robert. We are staying in touch with Amy.

In Unity,

David Andreasen
Support Amy Hale thread on the Maine Patriots website.
 
257Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 21:13
Disgraced Tea Party Express leader and "public face of Tea Party racism" Mark Williams brought in to help found a new Tea Party PAC.
 
258Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 21:18
From the new PAC's website, Cirizens Reclaiming Constitutional Liberty:
This movement, called the Tea Party, which at first unified a nation in a way that has not been done in 234 years, is now being torn apart from the inside. Americans across the country viewed Glenn Becks, supposed, Tea Party “Unity” Show, where he brought together the “leaders” of the most popular Tea Party Groups. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Glenn, as did Michelle Bachman, sided with Self Proclaimed Leaders from groups like the Tea Party Patriots, to slam fellow prominent Tea Party group and reason for the Tea Parties influence into Main Stream Media, the Tea Party Express. This episode of the “Glenn Beck Show” displayed for the country, that while people follow him around by his every word, he is still human and can be deceived by what can only be described as a popularity contest.

Glenn did not do his homework on the Tea Party Patriots or else he would have easily been able to find “Tea Party Patriots” own dirty secrets which are far more damning than a distasteful satire about race which ended up being the topic of the show. What America needed was to have their favorite spokesman throw all the skeletons out of the closet from all these groups, give them an even playing field and prove to America that all of these “leaders” have their own baggage and are no better than the other. Each of these leaders and organizations play a pivotal role collectively in order to reclaim America.

Not one of these groups would I consider as not promoting the fight for Constitutional Liberties through ways of their own specialties. However, like our own Government, maybe the leadership can no longer focus on the grassroots from which we started. No longer is the focus on the actual workers of each organization, but instead on the National leaders that no longer pound the pavement because they are too busy flying all over the country for speaking engagements and media interviews.

I have had a close, personal involvement with both Tea Party Patriots (TPP) and Tea Party Express (TPE). Many in Sacramento, know the falling out I had with TPE and my work with TPP since the very first rally at the capitol on February 27, 2009. I have since disassociated from TPP also and posted a note on my Facebook page for the reasons why.

I was recently made aware of some articles from a blogger in Nevada City, Ca who is blinded by the facade of the Tea Party Patriots “National Co-Founder” Mark Meckler. This blogger posted outright lies about me regarding my role in Tea Party Patriots as well as comments he was given to feed to the public from the Meckler’s.

The personal vendetta’s that Mark Meckler instigates against anyone that will not blindly walk in lockstep to whatever he says, is more vile than anything that Mark Williams has ever said and more destructive to this movement than the Obama administration is to our country.

The TPP is an “Issues Based Organization,” because of their non-profit status. However, Mark and JennyBeth sit and preach that they are not here to "make people not think for themselves about candidates” or “just tell them who to vote for”...however, that is exactly what they are doing in the case of issues! These self-proclaimed leaders have developed an attitude that is more elitist than any politician.

It is time to get back to Grassroots, refocus our efforts locally and reclaim our country from the ground up.

That is why I have teamed up with Rodney Stanhope and Mark Williams to move past the childish destructive tactics in order to reset this movement back to the unity that was claiming the hearts and minds of America. This partnership is meant to send a message to America that we are all Americans, I can no sooner kick my neighbor out of his house because I do not like what he said, any more than Mark Williams should be chastised and vilified for his actions.

While I find many of his comments distasteful and do not condone those sorts of messages, it is not my right to take away his Free Speech guaranteed by our First Amendment! After all The Tea Party is not to pick and choose one's interpretation of these Amendments to suit ones personal opinion. Despite some of these outlandish actions from Mark, I know full well that he is not a racist and that he is fighting for the same cause I am...a more Constitutional Country to leave our future generations!
 
259Boldwin
      ID: 5877812
      Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 13:16
Curious, do you daydream that the movement is crumbling before November?
 
260DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 14:37
Curious, do you actually think they believe in half of what they purport to believe in?
 
261Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 17:07
I offer no predictions, For all I know they emerge from the
infighting stronger for it (not that I'd bet on that). Let's just
say I'm enjoying the carnival sideshow, which is no different
from my approach since 4/15/09.
 
262Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 00:03


Idiot-on-a-stick!

Across Nation, Mosque Projects Meet Opposition
In all of the recent conflicts, opponents have said their problem is Islam itself. They quote passages from the Koran and argue that even the most Americanized Muslim secretly wants to replace the Constitution with Islamic Shariah law. These local skirmishes make clear that there is now widespread debate about whether the best way to uphold America’s democratic values is to allow Muslims the same religious freedom enjoyed by other Americans, or to pull away the welcome mat from a faith seen as a singular threat.

Guess the Tea Party isn't too attached to the notion of being free to practice the religion of your choice.
 
263Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 00:19
At least the Tea Party members are right about one thing: The biggest threats to our Constitution come from within.
 
264Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 11:07
Little Green Footballs
NY Tea Party Candidate Paladino: 'I'll Use Eminent Domain to Stop the Mosque'

Tea Party-endorsed Republican gubernatorial candidate for New York, Carl Paladino, has released a campaign video attacking the Park51 project:
“As governor, I will use the power of eminent domain to stop the mosque, and use the site as a war memorial instead of a monument to those who attacked our country.”
LGF readers may remember Carl Paladino. In April we had a story about the blatantly racist (and sexist) emails he was sending to his list: Tea Parties? Racism? No Way!

One of the videos he forwarded (now deleted from YouTube for obvious reasons) was titled “Obama Inauguration Ceremony,” and may have originated at the neo-Nazi site Stormfront (Google search link). A screenshot:

There's also a link to supposedly highly offensive sexist and racist emails Paladino has sent that I clicked on, but I didn't scroll down past the big nsfw warning at the top since I'm at work.
 
265Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 11:21
Guys like that make it unclear what the hell the Tea Party stands for. Using eminent domain to prevent the building of a Islamic community center is pretty much the antithesis of libertarianism, no?
 
266Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 11:31
LGF on the NYT story in #262:
The idea that the opposition to the Park51 Islamic community center in lower Manhattan is based on its proximity to the “sacred” Ground Zero is nothing more than a blatant lie.

The proof is right in front of everyone, because the Bigot Brigade, empowered by their success in spreading populist hatred against the Park51 project, are now demonstrating against mosques in many other locations in the United States. And since they don’t have the “hallowed ground” excuse in places like Sheboygan, Wisconsin, and Murfreesboro, Tennessee, they’re just letting their paranoia and prejudice hang out in front of the world: Battles Around Nation Over Proposed Mosques.
 
267DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 11:31
Razor, I disagree. I think it makes it perfectly clear what the Tea Party really stands for.

Sure, it goes completely against what the Tea Party says they stand for, but as Boldwin astutely if unintentionally pointed out in post 252, it's only words.
 
268Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 11:33
Razor, I'm reminded of the insistance of some in this forum that Tea Party ideals are limited to economic issues and that there is no social agenda.
 
269Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 12:09
Politico: Tea Party funding is drying up.
 
270The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 12:53
You don't see building a mosque near the 9/11 Memorial Site as rude? Yeah most American Muslims are good people, but then there's also manners. NYC is a big place and its insensitive to build a mosque there. I'm sure none of you would mind if the Boston Red Sox built their team HOF outside of Yankee stadium. It just sounds to me like somebody is trying to rub salt in a wound or trying to get attention. Either way its a disingenuous attempt to further divide this country when we have bigger problems.
 
271Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:01
Insensitive to whom? The mayor of the city supports the project. The city's residents, by and large, support the project. If they want it, they can have it.

For the record, it's not just a mosque, but a community center.
 
272Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:02
You don't see building a mosque near the 9/11 Memorial Site as rude?

No, not at all. And really, who is Palin, Gingrich, etc to speak for New Yorkers, who have approved of the use of this thing (being built a couple of blocks from the site, with private money on a private site by people who have lived and worked in NYC for decades)?

What the far right needs to do is stop doing Osama bin Laden's work work them. And please: Don't blame New York for "dividing" the country on a topic the far right has decided to (wait for it): divide the country with.

One of the few things George Bush was consistently right on was pointing out that the vast, vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people, and continued to reach out to them. Acting as though moderate Muslims have no place in America is, essentially, validating exactly what Osama bin Laden is doing: Telling Muslims that America's "freedoms" are limited to Christians and no matter what they do they are not American enough.
 
273DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:03
There's a fundamental (pun intended) difference between "considering something rude" and suggesting that using government powers to prevent it is a good thing.

Isn't conservatism about keeping government out of people's lives, particularly on matters of spirituality?

Seriously, if you agree with people to use government powers to stop people from building a mosque, you need to turn in your conservative card and put on your jihad badge and at least be honest about what you are.
 
274The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:06
For the record, it's not just a mosque, but a community center.

So what? We have ethnic neighborhoods in all our cities and a lot of times its a good thing. Ever go to China Town or Greek Town. Places like that? Its awesome. Now wouldn't it be a little off if a synagogue was built in a Muslim neighborhood or vice versa? Everybody's got a right to exist but don't be a jerk about it.

What the far right needs to do is stop doing Osama bin Laden's work work them.

You mean like Obama's pledge to close Gitmo?

One of the few things George Bush was consistently right on was pointing out that the vast, vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people, and continued to reach out to them.

That they are, but don't be rude. You don't bunt on Randy Johnson kind of a thing. Street smarts. Put it someplace else.
 
275DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:10
Yeah yeah, you think it's awesome to keep the ones you don't like out of sight so you won't be troubled by them. We get it. Separate but equal and all that.
 
276Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:14
The Left Behind
You don't see building a mosque near the 9/11 Memorial Site as rude?

Certainly not, especially considering the lengths at which the designers are going in attempt to make it as culturally inclusive as possible. Do you believe government should limit the Bill of Rights to exclude rudeness and bad manners? Further, do you believe this is a conservative position?

Funny, from my perspective it's the people who are grandstanding (every pundit and pol who has come out against it) making up historical fabrications (Gingrich) and willfully distorting the 2nd Amendment (too many to count) who are trying hardest to get attention. I guess it's all in the way you look at it.

I suspect the overwhelming majority of people who are offended by this rarely interact with any Muslims beyond buying a newspaper in a Muslim-owned store.

Out of curiosity, about how far would you establish your demuslimized zone around Ground Zero?
 
277Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:16
PD's last paragraph in #272 in praise of Bush's muslim outreach deserves a nod. Credit where it is due.
 
278The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:22
Legally speaking anybody should be able to put any business in that building. I don't want government picking on anybody. Don't care what color of the rainbow you are. But where I come from there's etiquette. You just don't do certain things you get my drift? Even though you can it doesn't mean you should.

willfully distorting the 2nd Amendment Somebody related this to the right to bear arms? Whatever.

Out of curiosity, about how far would you establish your demuslimized zone around Ground Zero?

I don't have a number of you and I'm not gonna pull out a map either. All I'm saying is that its rude. I've got Muslim coworkers and neighbors. All of them good people. That 9/11 site is hallowed ground, just leave it. How about a Japanese embassy in Pearl Harbor 9 years after it happened?

That doesn't mean we don't like the Japanese or we want them interred (a Democrat did that BTW), but it just means that some places are off limits.
 
279The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:25
PD's last paragraph in #272 in praise of Bush's muslim outreach deserves a nod. Credit where it is due.

I'm with you there. Anything good said about conservatives on this forum is rarer than hen's teeth and ought to be put on a plaque or bronzed.
 
280Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:27
There is a strip club about the same distance from the site. Is that "rude" as well? And you know that the actual project can't be seen from the WTC site, right?

Let NYC decide what it wasn't to do--if any group of people would be able to consider this to be "rude" it would be New Yorkers. And they haven't. In fact, they have welcomed their neighbors in their efforts to build an interfaith center, school, and mosque there.

And that is the heart of it: The Far Right is angry that New York isn't as angry as they are about this. Moderation doesn't exactly become them.
 
281The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:29
Actually there's a certain "spit in their face" quality about a strip club near a site where Muslim terrorists killed 3,000 people. Those working girls aren't wearing the scarf. Not for long anyway. :)
 
282Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:50
#279: For the record, you think George W. Bush is a conservative? Or did you mean that anything good said about the political right is rarer than hen's teeth.

Whichever you meant, I quite sure that research would show notably more frequent (both in terms of actual instances and ratio) praising of the opposition from the left than from the right.

When was the last time you or Boldwin or B7 or JBar or Nuclear Gophers or any of the other righty posters wrote anything favorable of a liberal Democrat or any liberal for that matter? Careful with that glass house.
 
283biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:52
That place on Murray? Prolly the last strip club I've been to.
Those ladies had both talent and the capitalist spirit.

I bought a very sooty friend a beer next door, after she
walked down 97 flights after the first bombing.
 
284The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:56
For the record, you think George W. Bush is a conservative?

No that guy's a RINO for sure. Or did you mean that anything good said about the political right is rarer than hen's teeth. Closer to that.

When was the last time you or Boldwin or B7 or JBar or Nuclear Gophers or any of the other righty posters wrote anything favorable of a liberal Democrat or any liberal for that matter? Careful with that glass house.

Go back and read what I've posted about Obama. I've said good things too. I'm no shill for anybody. He does good things I say good things.
 
285Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 14:02
Go back and read what I've posted about Obama.

That's fair enough, but I don't think your general statement about the forum is.
 
286Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 18:40
You don't see building a mosque near the 9/11 Memorial Site as rude?

no. but what i do see as rude is a bunch of people in middle america constantly trying to speak for NYC.

i lived in NYC for 13 years. i was there when the towers went town. it infuriates me how many on the far right - most of whom are not from NYC - CONTINUE to use what happened on 9/11 as a way to push some sort of f*cked up social agenda.

if they wanted to build a shrine or monument to the hijackers of 9/11, yea, i'd have a problem. but a mosque? it's no different than a synagogue or a church or any other house of worship.

and as for it being rude? what Joe Wilson did was rude. what Al Franken did was rude.

but building a house of worship - last time i checked, we had freedom of religion in this country. opposing it being built - at the very BEST, that's rude.
 
287Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 19:06
Let them build the mosque. What about freedom of religion, freedom of assembly. As long as the zoning is OK, do it.

but what i do see as rude is a bunch of people in middle america constantly trying to speak for Arizona.
 
288Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 19:30
That's a good point. But what NYC is doing is within its own ordinances. AZ is overstepping its bounds, however.
 
289sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 20:33
re 278

You just don't do certain things you get my drift?

I agree. And one of the things you just "dont do", is step in the way of the 1st Amendment "Freedom of Religion". Or does the right suddenly oppose that ideal?
 
290Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 10:32
Now wouldn't it be a little off if a synagogue was built in a Muslim neighborhood or vice versa?

You're offering assumptions about topics that are much more complicated than you consider. Yes of course there are Mosques in largely Jewish neighborhoods in NYC. Moreover, there is an active Synagogues right smack in the heart of Brooklyn's Little Pakistan on Coney Island Avenue. The neighborhood bordering on the west of that is Kensington, shared by Muslims and Jews. You can't really know very much about the way NYC neighborhoods evolve from one generation to the next.

In my opinion, it's rude and terribly poor ettiquite to shut tolerant and culturally inclusive Islam out of the city's most important business center and one of the world's greatest economic engines.

And for whatever it's worth, there is a Shinto shrine at "Hawaii's Plantation Village" 2 miles north of Pearl Harbor. No idea when they opened.
 
291Boldwin
      ID: 537571014
      Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 16:14
to shut tolerant and culturally inclusive Islam out of

I'll believe that one when I see it. It sure isn't anywhere in the Koran.

I play a lot of games with Muslims and I'm very curious to see the reactions of these presumably friendly gamers when their cultural overlords declare a world war. Suppose they gave a war and no one showed up? Probably a daydream but an interesting [to me at least] wrinkle in globalization.
 
292DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 16:32
I suspect they'd do about the same things that you would do if your cultural overlords told you to fly to Mecca and start blowing stuff up.

(I assume that's "laugh at them and tell them to stop drinking the Kool-Aid").

 
293Boldwin
      ID: 537571014
      Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 22:15
I'm really hoping we never find out how silly and over-optimistic that is.

Then again the world-wide interactions may just be building more bridges than the imams have calculated for.
 
294Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 09:10
The Daily Show With Jon StewartMon - Thurs 11p / 10c
Municipal Land-Use Hearing Update
www.thedailyshow.com
Daily Show Full EpisodesPolitical HumorTea Party
 
295biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 16:46
There is some serious fun going on here as the gop looks to
try to unseat patty "soccer mom" murray I'm the senate.

Clint didier, former mediocre TE , and tea party darling came
in a distant 3rd to Murray and Dino rossi. Didier comes out
today with a list of demands before didier will give his
endorsement to Dino. Dino, to his credit says, FU, in a
slightly nicer way, but not much nicer.

Didier's spokesman says well FU too! No endorsement for
you! In so many words.

Gotta love watching the tea party implode.
 
296Frick
      ID: 97321912
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 16:53
Does anyone besides the Tea Party members themselves, think they are anything except a vocal minority?
 
297Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 16:56
Boldwin will certainly insist that's the case, Frick. Really, I've seen them referred to as "the base" of the political right or (more frequently) of the GOP far more often than I've seen them referred to as "a vocal minority."
 
298DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 17:05
Well, gosh bili, I guess those Tea Party people will have no choice but to vote Democratic then.
 
299biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 18:03
More likely they'll stay home.
 
300Frick
      ID: 97321912
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 20:06
I wonder how many people that "base" drives away from the party. I can't say that I consider myself a Republican by any stretch of the imagination, but the Tea Partiers only drive me further away.
 
301Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 20:40
I think it works on both parties as well. A number of Democrats have moved to calling themselves independents because of the work of "progressives" over the last 5-10 years or so.

There's always going to be inter-party disputes of one sort or another--it is how a party works. But as the bases of both parties started moving outward the number of independents in this country started growing.

These days the Tea Party is making it harder for the GOP to win back the moderate (or rarely-sighted liberal) Republican.
 
302Boldwin
      ID: 307522111
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 13:03
More likely they'll stay home. - Bili

Bronze that monument to wrong-headedness.

I read some of the best democratic strategists on a regular basis and that is not what they are predicting at all.
 
303biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 13:12
I was talking about this specific race.

Didier said, “I want to endorse Dino Rossi, I really do. I want to beat Patty Murray in the worst way. I want to send her home with her pink slip in her hand.” But he says he’s gotten hundreds of emails from supporters who do not support Rossi. Noting that one-third of the GOP vote—”more than 150,000 people who gave me their vote and their trust”—was cast in his favor he said, “I know my endorsement is very important to my supporters. I know that my supporters aren’t going to automatically vote for Rossi. And a lot them told me they won’t vote for him at all.”

In order to unite the party behind Rossi to beat Murray, and to get Didier to endorse and campaign for Rossi, he said he needs those three assurances. He said he couldn’t make “a half-hearted endorsement because it wouldn’t really help Rossi win the race, unless my supporters know that I really mean it.”
 
304Boldwin
      ID: 307522111
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 13:19
Tea Partiers are all about beating back the socialist coup going on right now, and their turnout isn't going to hinge on that race whatsoever.
 
305walk
      ID: 517172117
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 18:17
alleged socialist coup. Not exactly sure how that jives with the wall street that I see daily.
 
306Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 18:36
Does the Tea Party even understand what certain words mean anymore? You know, words like "socialist" and "coup?"
 
307Boldwin
      ID: 177112119
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 20:11
I'm using the terms correctly.
 
308Canadian Hack
      ID: 457241711
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 20:54
Wow.

Boldwin is still fighting against people who died dureing the Great Depression. He had been mischaracterized as still fighting the 1960s (a mere 40-50 years ago). Turns out he is closer to 90 years behind the times.

If he continues to regress maybe he can fight either for or against Maximilien Robespierre and even Genghis Khan.
 
309Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 21:17
He responds with the name of an Italian marxist who died 73 years ago. Nice. The answer appears to be "no."
 
310Boldwin
      ID: 267353120
      Tue, Aug 31, 2010, 21:36
Thinkers and movements, both good and bad, stand on the shoulders of those who have laid the groundwork before them.

Mark Levin explains Tea Party.
 
311Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 11:51
 
312Boldwin
      ID: 28857268
      Sun, Sep 26, 2010, 18:20
Tea Party meets online gaming meets steroids.
 
313Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sun, Sep 26, 2010, 18:33
Tea Party meets online gaming meets steroids.

stupidity meets ignorance meets idiocy.

i like how a relatively landslide election is called a "coup" by the woefully ignorant.
 
314DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Sep 26, 2010, 19:58
Wow, I think I filled four Bingo cards from that page.

Remember when things like the Bush assassination movie were looked on as treasonous? Welcome to 2010, hypocrites whose words will come back to haunt you. Time to throw the game designer in the brig for treason, right? Or does this only apply when they're mad at someone you don't like, Ms. Malkin and Boldy-crites?
 
315Boldwin
      ID: 28857268
      Mon, Sep 27, 2010, 07:01
When Micheal Moore seriously faces jail time get back to me with that line of argument.
 
316Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Sep 27, 2010, 07:49
When Micheal Moore seriously faces jail time get back to me with that line of argument.

for?

(btw - invoking Moore's name doesn't make Wetzel's point any less accurate)
 
317DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, Sep 27, 2010, 10:09
?"When Micheal Moore seriously faces jail time get back to me with that line of argument."

Go on...

I'm not aware that the game makers are actually facing jail time. Unless you're equating Michael Moore "actually facing jail time" with pointing out your obvious hypocrisy yet again, which is of course ridiculous.

The obvious point is that a bunch of right wing nutjobs wanted Michael Moore (and others) strung up for their treasonous thoughts (despite, you know, their strong adherence to the Constitution when it serves their political ends), and those same people are not exactly being intellectually honest here.
 
318walk
      ID: 517172117
      Wed, Sep 29, 2010, 06:34
Thomas Friedman: Tea Kettle Movement

Right on.
 
319Boldwin
      ID: 50892914
      Wed, Sep 29, 2010, 15:10
Elites on the run
Lasch described the emergence of elites who "...control the international flow of money and information, preside over philanthropic foundations and institutions of higher learning, manage the instruments of cultural production and thus set the terms of public debate." These elites would undermine American democracy in order to fulfill their insatiable desire for wealth and power and to perpetuate their social and political advantages. Middle-class values, Lasch warned, would be hollowed out by a value-neutral educational system preaching multiculturalism. Their replacement would be narcissistic values based on self-gratification and worshipful of fame and celebrity as the ultimate values in a world devoid of deeper meaning.

The elite's fear and loathing of the tea party movement is rooted in the recognition that the real change is only now coming. They are right to be fearful, for the ultimate outcome of the tea party's triumph will be to constrain the elite's economic and cultural hegemony. This reversal of fortune, with power flowing from the elites back to the middle class, will take time to fully manifest itself. But an inexorable movement has begun.
 
320walk
      ID: 517172117
      Wed, Sep 29, 2010, 17:54
I don't see how does this "elites on the run" reconcile with Dems hopeful to revert tax breaks for those making more $250k, maintain tax breaks for those making less, and the tea kettlers having done nothing about deficits and spending during the 8 years of rampant spending under Bush.
 
321Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Sep 29, 2010, 18:00
The narrative about elites undermining democracy will undergo a revision when Republicans in congress attempt to use reconciliation to repeal the healthcare bill. We'll see then how often FNC uses the term, "nuclear option."
 
322Boldwin
      ID: 27822917
      Wed, Sep 29, 2010, 18:04
Walk#320

In case you haven't noticed, Karl Roves team of big spending Republicans aren't doing so well.
 
323walk
      ID: 517172117
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 09:00
Right, I mean, correct, I know. I found it curious though, as Friedman highlighted, where was this anti-deficit, fiscal responsibility, budget checks noise during the first ten years of the decade? ... when republicans were in power? The tea kettlers have run against republicans in the primaries, but are now on the republican ticket, and kettlers and repubs (I see the kettlers a natch subsidiary of the repubs) talk about deficit reduction, but only after they don't have a conservative gov't running the show. And, they don't talk about specifics or the hard and uncomfy decisions involving raising taxes (gov't revenue) and reducing spending (specific programs that benefit them), so I also find the whole movement and conservative pledge a bit empty. The only good outline I saw was here, by the left behind.
 
324The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 12:58
Right, I mean, correct, I know. I found it curious though, as Friedman highlighted, where was this anti-deficit, fiscal responsibility, budget checks noise during the first ten years of the decade?

It was entirely absent because a bunch of RINOs were in charge and the Democrats were all too happy to join in the freeding frenzy. This is how the Republicans should have been operating all along.
 
325Boldwin
      ID: 10843012
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 13:04
Considering that the power structure within the Republican party has not yet been physically altered to match the electoral reality the Rep party will indeed still need to be viewed with suspicion and their feet held to the fire. As with the original contract not all signatories were on board for all particulars. Henry Hyde visa vis term limits for example. Let us hope their fingers weren't crossed for most items in most cases.
 
326walk
      ID: 517172117
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 13:06
So, the tea kettlers did not renounce excessive spending and whatnot because they thought their republican brethren would change their ways? they were in a bad dream and would wake up soon? I think the tea kettlers' animus now is bogus and in part nothing to do with deficit spending but mainly to do with who is in power, "not one of us."

The Dems were also slightly conned into joining in on some of the spending, such as the the Iraq war (based on bogus info), and all of Bush's Iraq war spending was unbudgeted (so it could not be approved by Congress).
 
327Boldwin
      ID: 10843012
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 13:10
I think if the incoming congressmen vote as if the Tea Party never happened, we will see a new third party, the Republican Party will fade into insignificance, and marxism will take advantage of the interim period to destroy the country.
 
328walk
      ID: 517172117
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 13:47
Who wants marxism? Where is that coming from? Cos of healthcare reform? I don't think the wall street where I work is turning marxist.
 
329Boldwin
      ID: 10843012
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 14:49
The healthcare plan is marxism. The reason Obama wants punative taxes on the rich even if it were to hurt everyone economically is marxism. His plans for education are marxist. His plans for a domestic 'voluntary' army of forced labor is marxist. Obama's incorrect attempt at quoting the Bible 'we should all be our brother's keeper' is marxist. His plainly stated goal of taking from those with ability to redistribute wealth is marxist. His denial of elderly healthcare in order to help other classes of people is marxist. His czars are all marxists. The people he is packing the permanent government with are marxists.
 
330Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 15:06
The people he is packing the permanent government with are marxists

what permanent government is this? the one we vote on every two or so years, depending on the office?

your entire post is fear-based malarky, but i am curious of this "permanent" government.
 
331DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 15:07
Because, you see, if you do something that is roughly 0.01% of the way to Marxism, you're a Marxist. (Of course, having ANY taxation for the benefit of all should equally be viewed as Marxism, given this view.

I sneezed today. Ergo, I must be considered a biological terrorist.
 
332Boldwin
      ID: 10843012
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 15:12
The permanent government are those government employees who cannot be fired because of the Hatch Act and who are not hired and fired [unaccountable] according to the latest election results.

They are the reason government agencies have been turned into business wrecking virtual terrorist organizations no matter who is in power as president.
 
333Boldwin
      ID: 10843012
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 15:14
The Pendleton act as well.
 
334walk
      ID: 517172117
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 15:38
#331, LOL.

Baldwin. C'mon. That sounds very extreme. Marxist I mean, it's okay to disagree with the guy's policies, vehemently. But to erroneously brand them, with the fear thing, only serves to less the cred of the argument. Raising taxes is not marxist. We have tax brackets. Maybe you want a simpler tax code, fine, then I guess all past presidents are Marxist for not creating one.

Easy does it man.
 
335Boldwin
      ID: 10843012
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 15:46
I say that with sober stonecold seriousness. It is exactly and nothing less than a late stage Gramscian takeover of America.
 
336walk
      ID: 517172117
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 15:56
I cannot relate...
 
337Boldwin
      ID: 10843012
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 16:16
Your 'feelings' notwithstanding.
 
338walk
      ID: 517172117
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 16:17
My thinking, too.
 
339Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 16:42
When trying to prove out the case for the greatest political conspiracy in the history of the country, one might provide a little more than an a Wikipedia link to a guy who has been dead for 80 years. Only in your own head does that constitute anything more than Wikipedia link to a guy who has been dead for 80 years.
 
340Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 16:44
I say that with sober stonecold seriousness.

and an absolute lack of sober, stonecold facts.
 
341Boldwin
      ID: 55873018
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 20:03
From his childhood communist mentor all the way down to his marxist czars there really isn't any room for any other conclusion than that marxism is going on.
 
342DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 20:16
Um, yeah there is, quite obviously.
 
343Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 20:17
From his childhood communist mentor all the way down to his marxist czars there really isn't any room for any other conclusion than that marxism is going on.

yea, see, none of that statement is factual at all.
 
344Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Sep 30, 2010, 22:07
I'll never understand why this forum can't attract conservatives who actively distance themselves from that stuff.
 
345Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 08:34
Maybe its because you and your liberal friends have insulted them all out of here. A new one shows up, and is immediately insulted. You've probably had to have over 30 vile posts deleted, since the new policy on civility and respect. Tree - 40, and DWetzel - 50. Why do you think conservatives would want to put up with that garbage? Why would anyone want to? I had a post last week where 9 responses had to be deleted. A reasonable person would conclude that you don't want conservatives around here at all. Otherwise you would stop with the unnecessary insults.
 
346Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 08:36
Which insults, in particular, did MITH make?
 
347Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 08:41
Meanwhile, Tea Party candidate for NYS Governor threatens to "take out" a reporter who asks him for evidence of his charge that his opponent cheated on his wife.

Combined with Christine O'Donnell's resume problems, some of the Tea Party candidates are seeing their campaigns implode.
 
348Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 08:42
I don't have access to the deleted posts. Perhaps you can provide an accurate count of deleted posts. My estimate is liberals over 100 dleted posts and conservatives , maybe 10.
 
349walk
      ID: 517172117
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 08:46
Yeah, I've been following Paladino for a bit now as he is running my state. The confrontation with the aggressive reporter (for the conservative NY Post, too) was interesting in that the reporter was asking Paladino for evidence to back-up Paladino's claim that Cuomo (too) had an extramarital affair. Paladino would not provide the evidence ("at an appropriate time," he said). Later, Paladino admitted he had no evidence, but was compelled to say something like that to get the reporters to hound Cuomo with the same level of intensity that they are hounding him about his private life.

The reporter pressed Paladino, who instead defended (or attacked) by telling the reporter not to send around his goons to his daughter's house, or "I will take you out."

Fascinating comments and accusations from a gubentatorial candidate. More on this here:

NYT: Paladino and Anger, How Much is too Much?
 
350walk
      ID: 517172117
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 08:47
But there are more liberals on these boards, Bldg 7, so the question is of proportion, and of provocation. Not that I have been here much of late, but I think the bad behavior goes both ways.
 
351Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 08:53
Go ahead and justify it, walk.

Your posts are civil. And Seattle Zen understands the new policy.

I was providing an explanation for post #344. Y'all can do with it what you want. I suspect the insults will keep on coming.
 
352walk
      ID: 517172117
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 08:58
ok, understood.
 
353Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 10:18
Maybe its because you and your liberal friends have insulted them all out of here. A new one shows up, and is immediately insulted.

is not at all related to:

I'll never understand why this forum can't attract conservatives who actively distance themselves from that stuff.

they are separate issues.

My estimate is liberals over 100 dleted posts and conservatives , maybe 10.

i would wager the number for convervatives is definitely higher, what with the likes of Baldwin and Boxman posting.

i would also wager that if posts could be made that were devoid of calling other posters "marxists", "socialists", and "trolls", you would see less deletable responses to those posts.

 
354Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 10:29
#348: My point is that I don't recall deleting any MITH posts. Others, sure. You call out MITH in particular as having "insulted them all out of here" without any evidence whatsoever. And then, in #348, attempt to walk this back by pointing to some vague kind of problem with the number of posts made by "liberals" vs "conservatives."

If you are going to call someone out then back it up. Otherwise, suck it up.
 
355Frick
      ID: 42825248
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 10:43
I think part of the problem is bigger than the board. The conservative party (at least the vocal part) seems hell bent on driving away anyone who isn't an extremist. Anyone who dares deviate even slightly from the extremist talk show driven standard is called a RINO. I think plenty of them are just walking away in disgust.
 
356Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 10:55
If they were deleted. how can I provide the evidence. I don't think you're the only moderator. Suck that up.
 
357Boldwin
      ID: 4693818
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 10:59
Frick

Find an actual example.
 
358Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 11:08
Anyone who dares deviate even slightly from the extremist talk show driven standard is called a RINO.

Find an actual example.

the number of times a Republican "leader" has apologized to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or whomever for being critical of anything deemed part of the Conservative platform.

NUMEROUS examples have been posted on this board.
 
359Boldwin
      ID: 4693818
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 11:14
...of a conservative who left here because of conservative's conduct.
 
360tree on the evo
      ID: 4251457
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 11:31
You're asking him to find an example for something he never stated....
 
361Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 14:46

Mayor Bloomberg blasts Tea Party, describes it as often irrational, 'not a political movement'



"The wake-up call, John, is called the Tea Party. That's what the Tea Party is. It's funny, it's not a political movement. They don't, they're not pro-choice or pro-life. They're not pro-gun or anti-gun. They're not pro-gay-rights or anti-gay-rights. They're not with any of the social issues."

And then, Bloomberg, the registered Independent, put the Tea Party in some historical context. "They are a group of people, and you see this every eight, 10 years, there was a Perot boomlet if you remember, and then there's the, there was a McCain boomlet eight, 10 years ago.


strong words. and i do believe it was TLB who said he would vote for Bloomberg if he ran for president.
 
362boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 16:14
what was he babbling about? strong words? I am not even sure what he said. So not being with social issues makes you not a political movement? I think Bloomberg might want to read up on the French revolution, they were for everything and nothing at the same time, yet i would say they were indeed a political movement.
 
363Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 17:32
..of a conservative who left here because of conservative's conduct.

Toral left for many reasons, but one of his biggest was you, Baldwin, and he made that clear. I'm not going to dig through the archive, but of that I'm certain.
 
364Boldwin
      ID: 17956115
      Fri, Oct 01, 2010, 17:58
I still talk to him. That's ridiculous. He left because of hurt feelings over rules in Poliboard roto.
 
365Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 04:07
I don't think there is any reason to believe that the dearth of conservatives who will challenge other conservatives here is the result of my insulting them all away.

As far as I know, I've had two or three posts deleted, one of which, as explained by Guru, was not for a civility violation, it just got swept up in the deletion of the offending post and discussion (some of which violated the civility policy) that followed. If number of deleted posts is his measure of poor decorum, he's definitely barking up the wrong tree.

I also don't think it's unfair to ask why we can't get any conservatives who are willing to challenge others on the right. And I certainly don't think such a question deserves a dressing down employing exactly the type of behavior he accuses me of.

Perhaps I can get an answer by asking more directly:

B7, you're obviously a person on the political right who is willing to call out liberal forum members for uncivil behavior and outlandish statements. And you're also obviously not someone whom I have 'insulted away'. Why aren't YOU willing to stand up to anyone on your side of the aisle for the same reasons?
 
366Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 09:12
Who are you talking about? Boldwin? Do you think he is going to listen to me?

And what topic are you talking about? Is Obama a marxist?

When I think of marxist, I think of communist or socialist. Is Obama 100% marxist? No. Is he moving the country more toward marxism / communism / socialism? Yes. There is no question in my mind. I think you guys are wordsmithing again.

And I'm sure you've had more than 2 or 3 posts deleted. If there were more conservatives here, there would be more conservatives apt to call out other conservatives as you desire.
 
367Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 10:53
When the dominant tone and attitude of current right wing rhetoric is based on insults, incivility and exxageration beyond the scope of reality, I find it completely disingenuous for there to be complaints about the treatment of so called conservatives and their participation in this forum and beyond.

Moderate voices are chastised and ostracized, while Glenn Beck is elevated to hero status. The most divisive personalities in this nation are committed to keeping the nation divided, and that goes for the left as well.

The more concentration there is on who is being more insulting and more provacative, the less concentration there is being spent on addressing issues and debating how to best approach them.

What's most disturbing to me are those who claim to represent America and America's values, when it's impossible to define without eliminating a huge contingency of Americans and their values.

Glenn Beck doesn't represent my values and neither does Nancy Pelosi. I can't understand why we allow people like that to dominate the discussion.
 
368Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 11:07
1. Do you think he is going to listen to me?

It certainly doesn't seem to me like you reserve your criticism for people who you think you are able to get through to. I haven't noticed any breakthroughs with any of the other people you mentioned.

2. If there were more conservatives here

I'm quite sure that Boldwin isn't the only conservative to come through here in your time who is guilty of uncivil behavior and outlandish posts.

This is a clear avoidance of a question that makes you and others on the right here uncomfortable. It's not my intent to make you uncomfortable, but i would like to know what the deal is. Sorry if you think I'm picking on you, but I've been asking this same question for years.
 
369Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 13:08
When the dominant tone and attitude of current right wing rhetoric is based on insults, incivility and exxageration beyond the scope of reality, I find it completely disingenuous for there to be complaints about the treatment of so called conservatives and their participation in this forum and beyond.

I disagree with that, but if other conservatives are alleged of this behavior does not mean that I forfeit the right to complain about uncivil behavior. I don't do it.

mith: What question are you talking about.
 
370Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 13:22
The last sentence of #365. Unless your reply intends that uncivil behavior and outlandish opinions are things you just don't ever see from the right side of this forum.
 
371Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 15:25
A. I have on occasion
B. There is a procedure in place for dealing with uncivil posts
C. I compain enough about the ones directed at me.
D. I think I'm in agreement on the Obama - marxism point.
E. Not posting something does not mean you are in agreement with something.
F. I don't follow every topic, so I may not even be aware that it is happening.

I noted that a new conservative poster did happen to show up, and he was immediately savaged. I asked him how long he had been here, and how many posts he thought had to be deleted that were directed at him. He said less than a month and too many to count. Many times he had to ask, how is post X civil. This has been ignored repeatedly. Nobody has provided an explanation for this. Please explain how this behavior is conducive to getting more conservatives to post here.
 
372DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 15:41
Said poster's first four or five posts were, and I will paraphrase here but can look up if needed, "liberulz suck, Obama sucks, you suck if you agree with them at all". It wasn't exactly the shining example of principles that one would want to defend. Trust me, if someone came on here and their first few posts were "haha stupid conspiracy theorists are morons", you would have given approximately the same reaction.

Since then, to his credit, he's been much more willing to engage and discuss (especially on economic issues, which seem to have a generally lower level of vitriol anyway) -- and I think that in general the responses have changed accordingly. Generally speaking, people who at least attempt to engage intelligently on issues get engaged back in return. When people say "you're all marxists and you're a moron if you disagree", well... suffice to say if it were up to ME, those posts would be deleted ahead of time since they're basically designed to piss people off rather than do anything useful. It's basically one tenth of a step from directly calling someone a moron, but because it's cloaked in groupspeak, it's just fine and dandy.
 
373Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 15:45
I disagree with that, but if other conservatives are alleged of this behavior does not mean that I forfeit the right to complain about uncivil behavior. I don't do it.

You can complain about it all you want. No one suggested you forfeit anything, and none of your freedoms are threatened, a common refrain often offered to demonize, given the a lack of solid argument If you disagree that the current right wing rhetoric is based on insults, incivility and exxageration beyond the scope of reality, then I don't know how to respond, except to wonder what conservative outlets you frequent.

 
374Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 18:20
The difference with TLB was his posts were civil and the liberal responses were not. He's welcome to comment himself if he wants.

If guru can move the posts deleted by moderators to a separate thread, I would be glad to go thru them and provide a tally of who has had how many posts deleted. I'll even donate $20 to guru if there have been more conservative posts deleted, and one of you liberals can donate $20 if there have been more liberal posts deleted. This would be since the inception of the new policy. It sounds like Pancho Villa or Tree would be willing to accept that challenge.
 
375Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 18:28
What would that show, exactly? I'm happy to state that, in my experience, most posts by "conservative" posters are whacked than by "liberal" posters.
 
376Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 18:48
It would verify all the points I have been making in this thread.
 
377Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 19:04
Clearly B7's definition of civility is not the same as mine. Friction between TLB and I started, as I recall, when I pointed out that his anti-gay opinions (that he didn't want them near him and his family, actually calling for "seperate but equal" status for them) is one of bigotry.

Perhaps some felt that was unnecessary, but replace homosexuals with any other group - conservatives, the disabled, an ethnicity, a religion, etc. And I don't think anyone would have a problem using that term. But it was after that when the gloves came off.
 
378Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 19:09
B7: Unless your point is that Baldwin goes on stretches of posting things outside the bounds of our civility policy (and thereby gets a lot of posts whacked) then it doesn't appear that you're making an accurate point about the numbers of deleted threads.

Posts are deleted, by and large, because they violate Guru's civility policy. And that's it.
 
379DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 19:33
"The difference with TLB was his posts were civil and the liberal responses were not. He's welcome to comment himself if he wants."

Trust me, he's had plenty of posts deleted too.
 
380Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Oct 02, 2010, 23:30
B7: Unless your point is that Baldwin goes on stretches of posting things outside the bounds of our civility policy (and thereby gets a lot of posts whacked) then it doesn't appear that you're making an accurate point about the numbers of deleted threads.

Posts are deleted, by and large, because they violate Guru's civility policy. And that's it.


Then you should take me up on my $20 offer in post #374 and force me to pay $20 to guru to prove your point.

And he doesn't have to post them in a separate thread. Just provide a list of names and number of posts deleted by moderators.
 
381tree on the evo
      ID: 4251457
      Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 00:22
I cannot believe a bunch of adults are having a conversation about who has had the most posts deleted....could there be anything more childish?
 
382Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 04:32
If it's that important to you, the best first step (rather than taking cash bets) might be to ask Guru if he thinks providing you with that material is something he cares to do and even if so, is worth any effort necessary to gather it for you.

If it's not too much trouble for him, maybe he'll be happy (and gracious enough) to hand over the deleted material, but if not I don't think the lure of a $20 donation is going to change his mind. If you read through some of the discussion about the civility policy, you know this forum isn't exactly his favorite corner of the site, with this particular type of bickering apparently a particular annoyance for him. He admitted considering just shutting the forum down but decided a new civility policy would be worth a try before going nuclear.

One of your responses to my question about the apparent bias in your reactions to incivility here was that there is a policy in place. Perhaps a new approach of following your own advice is the easier way forward.

But if you do get a full tally of the number of deleted posts per person, I'll be expecting an apology.
 
383Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 09:28
#380: No, I don't have to answer what I think is a silly point. I don't need any help in proving your point since, as a moderator, I know the reasons why I'm deleting posts. And they fail because of the civility policy.

Besides that, as far as I know deleted posts are deleted posts. They're not there anymore.
 
384Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 09:46
I've made my point. It looks like nobody wants to take that offer. No need to drone on. But, if it turns out mith has less than 2 or 3 posts deleted, I'll be happy to apologize.

What's this thread about anyways? Tea Party. I think the Tea Party people are just blowing smoke. They probably won't even show up to vote. The Dems have nothing to worry about here. They can win with a mild turnout.
 
385Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 10:22
I have a tendency to post comments and then either rethink my phrasing or catch errors (and occasionally decide I was a bit harsh) and delete it and repost. I can be a pretty sloppy writer and board members who spend a lot of time here are probably used to seeing my posts disappear and then reappear, slightly altered, a few minutes later or just notice gaps in post numbers directly above my posts.

Maybe this is a reason why you think I've had 30 of them deleted this year. I said 2 or 3 that I'm aware of. Thinking more, I know of 3, one of which did not include any uncivil offenses. Perhaps there are more I'm not aware of or forgot about but I'd be very surprised if my tally is higher than 5. I know for certain that you have at least one deleted.
 
386Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 12:13
Yeah, 30 may be a little high for you. We'll see what the future brings.
 
387Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 12:59
I agree with Tree that is bickering over deleted posts is childish and I thank B7 for finally realizing that he doesn't even remember what this thread is about. One problem with your request, B7, is that not every post deleted violated the policy. I have seen plenty of posts that were simply, "hey, post X is not cool" or "what happened to posts X-X4?" get deleted because they draw attention to posts that are no longer there. To add those to someone's tally renders your challenge meaningless.

Despite your sarcasm, the Tea Party people certainly are not blowing smoke, they are the same 10-15% of the Republican base that vote in every primary and election. The one significant change they have made in the leadership of the base of the GOP is they are not religious fundamentalists. Back in the 90's, after years of hard work, the evangelical leadership made it impossible for Republican candidates to make it to national prominence without their approval. The singular most important action was getting GW enough votes that the Supreme Court could steal the election from Al Gore.

They have faded ever since 2006, fatigue, no effective national leader. The Tea Party is filled with church goers but it is a secular movement. Hell, Glen Beck is a Mormon and I bet half of the Tea Partiers don't consider Mormons Christians. This is a huge change. In their minds, what does "small government" have to do with Christ? It will drive voter turnout down amongst conservative church goers who need a push to get out of the pews and into a polling place. On the other hand, Tea Party blather appeals a bit more to independents.
 
388Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 14:39
Thank you, Village Voice, for clarifying Tea Party brains:

 
389Boldwin
      ID: 43952322
      Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 23:53
You forgot to tell them they were only having a temper tantrum.

Please do go on insulting the most powerful force in the upcoming election. Juuust dismiss and denegrate them a liiiittle bit longer. Nuuuuthing to learn from them nosir, move along. Above all do not trim your sails to the prevailing wind. Very anti-progressive to align in with the masses.
 
390walk
      ID: 517172117
      Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 08:18
masses? I'd say more like a dying breed about to go extinct. Last surge.
 
391sarge33rd
      ID: 47847175
      Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 08:36
most powerful force???? If you mean by splitting the Rep voters, yep. They are quite capable of doing that. Or maybe you meant, disenfranchising the majority of voters? Yep, they do that too.
 
392The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 09:11
Said poster's first four or five posts were, and I will paraphrase here but can look up if needed, "liberulz suck, Obama sucks, you suck if you agree with them at all". It wasn't exactly the shining example of principles that one would want to defend.

Just so no one believes the lie by this inadequate poster who should not be permitted to be here if the powers that be bothered to follow the rules put here:

Start at post 156 in the Deepwater Horizon thread and go down until about 167.
 
393walk
      ID: 517172117
      Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 09:12
No interest; too much work. Take high road, share good opinions instead.
 
394Boldwin
      ID: 4193949
      Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 10:40
LB

It's so easy posting quality posts against which the trolls burning missiles look like matches in a hurricane, that there really isn't any reason to take their guilty-as-hell, unworthy, 'should-have-been-site-banned-years-ago posting' personally.

Hard to say who is more to blame for them between the moderator and the liberal majority who allow the trolls to speak for them.
 
395Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 10:43
Your FOX News-like post neglects to mention that there are, of course, at least three active moderators. Since you don't know who they all are you probably lack the standing to comment on whether they are "liberal" or not. Let alone whether that plays any part in whether civility-violating posts are removed.

*Pssssssst* [The sound of another Tea Party conspiracy theory losing all its air once facts are known...]
 
396boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 10:51
time out this didn't even happen:
The singular most important action was getting GW enough votes that the Supreme Court could steal the election from Al Gore.
 
397Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 11:47
Given the fact that at least one of the active mods is the owner and operator this site, at who's (likely wavering) amenability this forum continues to exist, I would suggest that if you care to post here, it is not in your best interest to challenge his application of the rule system he put in place.

Given the sources of the criticism, it's worth noting that he is not a political liberal. More importantly, we cannot know whether a given deleted post was removed upon the request of another poster following Guru's guidelines or whether the moderator acted on his/her own behalf. I can't help but wonder whether those complaining about the application of the civility policy ever bother to report offensive posts, themselves. It's rather hypocritical to chide someone else for doing a poor job while refusing to hold up your side of the civility-related responsibilities.

If you don't care whether you are able to continue to post here, I'd request that you simply find someplace more to your liking rather than lob accusations of bias and apathy at the mods, potentially ruining it for thosoust us who do care to stick around.

My last post on the topic.
 
398Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 12:19
Haven't looked into this thread for a few days.

I have no "easy" way to measure deleted posts. Every time a post is deleted, I simply save the "before" and "after" snapshot. The the only way to count deleted posts is to compare each before-after pair. I'm quite sure it's not worth the effort.

Frankly, there have not been many reported abuses. So either the more active moderators (those other them me) are keeping them cleaned up, or else people are letting things ride. Probably some of each. But in terms of the reported abuses, I have not detected any liberal vs. conservative bias.
 
400Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 12:57
Just so no one believes the lie by this inadequate poster who should not be permitted to be here

the irony of you making an insulting post towards someone and then saying they shouldn't be allowed to post here seems tragically lost on you.

Hard to say who is more to blame for them between the moderator and the liberal majority who allow the trolls to speak for them.

this is an entertaining post. the few conservatives here rarely, if ever, call each other out for trolling, insulting, or otherwise sophomoric posts.

on the opposite end of the spectrum, i can't even count the number of times where MITH, SZ, PD, and others have called me, DWETZ, and others out for similarly offensive posts, asking us to remove them.

in most cases, i complied.
 
402Boldwin
      ID: 1293423
      Tue, Oct 05, 2010, 00:03
I could put up with shameless trolls if they could at least be entertaining.
 
403Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Oct 05, 2010, 09:30
B7[Building 7], you're obviously a person on the political right who is willing to call out liberal forum members for uncivil behavior and outlandish statements. And you're also obviously not someone whom I have 'insulted away'.

Actually mith did insult me away about a year ago. PermDude OK'd it. I was gone for two months. I'd still be gone if guru had not started the new policy on civility.
 
404Boldwin
      ID: 2092614
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 15:02
Tea Party/third party fence mending inside peek.
 
405Boldwin
      ID: 40921621
      Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 22:51
Hentoff has a point.

People need to get the Tea Party on record supporting our right to privacy before they are elected. For that matter liberals who thot privacy was so important we should kill babies over it, should stand up against this too.
 
406Boldwin
      ID: 291370
      Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 10:24
Socialist respect for the environment.

Tea Party respect for the environment.
 
407Boldwin
      ID: 33943722
      Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 05:00
#335, #336

Not everyone is content to do it the slow way.

Obama is saying it will be 'hand-to-hand combat' if the Reps take congress. I'd like to assume he is speaking metaphorically. These talkers aren't helping.
 
408bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 08:19
Clicking the first link in 407 got me a warning that that site possibly contained malware harmful to my computer.
 
409Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 10:05
Angle Pastor problems

This is a big problem for Angle. Las Vegas has a very high concentration of Mormons who vote Republican in huge percentages, even against Mormon Reid.
In a race this close, she can hardly afford to see this constituency either vote Reid, or just sit out.
 
410Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 12:37
A good statement by her spokesman. Of course, Obama tried the same thing and his argument was rejected by the Right, so we'll see if they'll go to the hypocrite well again on this one.
 
411Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 18:46
What will Sharon Angle say next?

Nevada U.S. Senate candidate Sharron Angle told dozens of Hispanic high school students last week that "some of you look a little more Asian to me," inducing gasps from the crowd and marking the latest eyebrow-raising remark she has uttered on the campaign trail.

and, in regards to some of her arguably anti-Hispanic advertising:

Freshman Silvia Parra said she asked Angle on Friday to pull the "anti-Hispanic" commercials.

"She said, 'We don't have any anti-Hispanic ads,'" Parra recalled. "I feel like she kind of lied to me in front of my face."
 
412Boldwin
      ID: 10916195
      Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 06:16
You'll know it was the ultimate grandslam if the very powerful, very established, very influential DeFazzio loses.

He won by an 82% majority last election. He's only 6 points ahead this time and running the most desperately dishonest campaign.

Running against a noted scientist, global warming denier, home school curiculum developer, tea party/Reagan conservative.
 
413Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 08:54
He won by an 82% majority last election. He's only 6 points ahead this time and running the most desperately dishonest campaign.

speaking of dishonesty, let's talk about what made this race close, that being $300,000 in recent advertising spending by the formerly unknown and shadowy "Concerned Taxpayers of America".

Recently, reports were filed with the Federal Elections Commission by CTA, and its source of money is now out of the shadows. CTA has just two donors. One is a concrete firm in Maryland that apparently doesn’t like Kratovil. The other is Bob Mercer (pictured above, left), who with his partner runs Renaissance Technologies, one of the nation’s largest hedge funds.
 
414boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 11:24
"some of you look a little more Asian to me,"

this reminds me of an Asian friend of mine who people use to ask for help with Spanish because they thought she was Hispanic.
 
415Boldwin
      ID: 10916195
      Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 11:42
Landbridge...Asia...am I the only one aware of this?
 
416tree on the evo
      ID: 4251457
      Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 11:46

Landbridge...Asia...am I the only one aware of this?


Well, the only one who would use it as an excuse to cover something offensive...
 
417Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 12:10
What will Christine O'Donnell say next?

"Where in the Constitution is the separation of church and state?" O'Donnell asked him.

When Coons responded that the First Amendment bars Congress from making laws respecting the establishment of religion, O'Donnell asked: "You're telling me that's in the First Amendment?"


i'm sure she probably thought he was talking about the Punjabi Constitution or something.

really - how any one can continue to support these folks that don't even have a basic grasp of stuff we're taught in elementary school (or before - anyone remember School House Rock?), is beyond me.
 
418Boldwin
      ID: 10916195
      Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 12:19
She is correct that there is no 'separation of church and state' mentioned in the constitution, but when you take that highly charged position, you had better understand exactly where the liberals get their excuse to say so.
 
419Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 12:32
When Coons responded that the First Amendment bars Congress from making laws respecting the establishment of religion, O'Donnell asked: "You're telling me that's in the First Amendment?"

i really think that says it all, despite your desire to argue any point, and agree with any statement, made by any candidate, you are likely to support.
 
420Boldwin
      ID: 10951913
      Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 14:17
I've been saying that that was not in the constitution forever. I din't just invent the position to let her off the hook. In fact she is on the hook for not being prepared on something she should have known would come up.
 
421Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 13:02
Crazy TX GOP congressional candidate says "violence is on the table" should the Tea Party not prevail
 
422Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 15:22
Seperation has been the establIshed interpretation of the religion clause in th 1st Amendment since at least as far back as during the lifetimes of Jefferson and Madson, and probably as far back as when it was written. It's not like it's a new SCOTUS interpretation that occurred since she was in college. For all intents and purposes, yes, it has always been there.
 
423Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 11:15
"It's really funny the way that the media reports things. After that debate my team and I we were literally high fiving each other thinking that we had exposed [that Democratic candidate Chris Coons] doesn't know the First Amendment, and then when we read the reports that said the opposite we were all like 'what?'"

Christine O'Donnell tried for a "gotcha" but comes away a little confused.

No doubt her hours of online cramming on the First Amendment made her think she was pretty prepared to try that little schoolyard trick.
 
424Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 10:07
and what sort of impact might the Tea Party have on American Politics?

For the GOP in Colorado, it could be devestating.

Colorado Republicans fear their party will become a minor party and lose fundraising advantages in the 2012 presidential election if its candidate for governor, tea party favorite Dan Maes, gets less than 10 percent of the vote on Nov. 2.

i'd also like to note this tidbit, as it related to postings on this board:


Maes has lost prominent tea party and GOP backing after questions surfaced over his record as a policeman in Liberal, Kan.; fines for campaign finance violations; his equating a Denver bike-share program to a U.N. conspiracy;and his pledge to fire 2,000 state workers as governor "just like that."
 
425Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 10:40
I think he'll come through, in the end. If not, his loss would certainly be the Tea Party's gain, as they will get ballot positions, ability to fund raise, etc. I think, in any case, that the Tea Party in Colorado will be getting those things anyway after this election.
 
426Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 11:01
and wasn't sure where to put this, but i enjoyed the read:.. I can see November on my TV… so I turned it off
 
427boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 13:42
"I told Harold to cancel our subscription and get out the old rabbit ears." I guess someone should have told them the "old rabbit ears" don't work anymore, even to get PBS...
 
428Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 14:12
I guess someone should have told them the "old rabbit ears" don't work anymore, even to get PBS...

actually, they do. you can modify them to recieve a digital signal, but they definitely work.
 
429sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 20:54
lmao I think I love those two lil old ladies. Thanks for that link Tree!
 
430Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 08:49
oh, those whacky tea party supporters...

The Louisville Courier-Journal reports that a female MoveOn.org supporter was attacked by backers of Kentucky GOP Senate candidate Rand Paul on Monday when she attempted to approach Paul outside his final debate with Democrat Jack Conway in Lexington.

 
431Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 09:10
430 - Tree

Did you actually see the video? This was staged about as well as a middle school musical.

As to who staged it, my guess is MoveOn but of course there isn't proof of that.

But its about as real as Joan Crawfords face.
 
432Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 09:14
So you believe that the incident wasn't real?
 
433Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 09:25
Kind of ironic that the guy who pushed her to the ground was wearing a "DON'T TREAD ON ME" button.
 
434Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 09:30
I'll be surprised to find out it was real. If it was, yes those 2 guys should be behind bars. But no, I don't think it was real.
 
435Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 10:05
Did you actually see the video? This was staged about as well as a middle school musical.


of course i watched the video. what on earth makes you think it's staged??!

 
436Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 10:21
Here's a longer version of the video, showing Rand arriving for the debate.

If this is fake, Rand is in on it.
 
437biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 11:20
Looks to me like she was lucky the camera was there. He checked his stomp after he saw it.

Salt of the earth. Gonna be a fun 2 years if predictions hold true, and we put the scum who got us here back in charge.
 
438walk
      ID: 348442710
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 15:31
Tea Partiers Vow to Supress Voter Fraud
 
439DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 16:52
"Tea Party members have started challenging voter registration applications and have announced plans to question any individual voters at the polls whom they suspect of being ineligible."

As someone on another forum I frequent put it: How can you tell who is eligible to vote just by looking at...........oh, right.
 
440Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 18:20
I'll be surprised to find out it was real. If it was, yes those 2 guys should be behind bars. But no, I don't think it was real.

well, looks like it's time for you to be surprised.

and, it's time for Tim Profitt, Bourbon County coordinator for Rand Paul, to go to jail.

These are dangerous times, and i believe that these Tea Party idiots are taking us toward a violent direction in this country, and we'll be seeing more and more violence at our polling places.
 
441Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 19:22
Bring the Black Panthers to all of the polling places, that should curb the violence.
 
442Boldwin
      ID: 389292620
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 21:29
and we put the scum who got us here back in charge. - bili

Not to worry. Chris Dodd retired, Barney Frank is losing and George Soros is reeling back on his heels avoiding the avalanche.
 
443Khahan
      ID: 13126822
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 21:49
Wow, that Profitt guy is an idiot.
 
444Boldwin
      ID: 389292620
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 22:11
Highly respected blogger ANN ALTHOUSE ISN’T BUYING THE MOVEON STOMPING STORY:

If they were so bent towards violence, why did they take their concerns to the police first? [who failed to act]

If you see a shady character in a disguise obviously itching to approach your candidate wouldn't you stop them?
 
445Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 22:16
So, now you're a fan of thugs.
 
446Boldwin
      ID: 389292620
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 22:16
Lexington Police Lt. Edward Hart told the Huffington Post that there were about 300 protesters outside the debate and only a few officers because they were not "anticipating any issues."

"She had been attending multiple rallies with the same purpose," Hart said. "She stated that she was wearing a wig and as she was running up to Rand Paul she was either tripped on purpose or pushed to the ground."
I guess we should wave someone like that thru to the candidate instead?

Did we learn nothing from Charles Manson's girls?
 
447Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 22:42
Did we learn nothing from Charles Manson's girls?

Guess not, since you seem to think border security should be handled by Hispanic haters who murder citizens in home invasions.
 
448Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 22:44
blaming the victim, again? Does blonde wig = "stomp on my head" to you folks?

I guess you stopped reading Ann's post partway through, eh? Typical...
 
449Boldwin
      ID: 389292620
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 01:06
You guys think you can just walk up to every conservative with a pie and take a free shot.

SEIU thugs working over a black man outside an event because they don't think he should be republican is intimidation. Forcefully preventing someone from throwing a pie in Ann Coulter's face at every college campus, is not. Nor is preventing the same sort of thing happening to your candidate after you've already asked the police to handle it and they refused to protect your man.

And another thing. It is not the case that everyone who disagrees would agree with you if they just didn't hate. There is a fundamental disconnect with reality for you folks when your arguments are so weak you have to invent bad motives and smear everyone else to maintain your own worldview.
 
450Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 01:37
murderers, men who stomp on women's heads, felons who commit fraud.

these are Baldwin's heroes. and sadly you see nothing wrong with praising these people.

your God must be pleased with you.
 
451Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 01:53
You guys think you can just walk up to every conservative with a pie and take a free shot.

Now you are inventing a pie?

There is a fundamental disconnect with reality for you folks when your arguments are so weak you have to invent bad motives and smear everyone else to maintain your own worldview.

More projection on the Right. Even when faced with video evidence of a thug he's gotta project it onto others. When facing God, what is oign to happen to those people who say "the Democrats did it"?

The best we can do, when faced with an alternate reality willing to go all badger on anyone willing to shine the light of reality on them, is to know that their silence on a point is the only apology for being wrong there is. In this case, the silence on using Ann Althouse to "prove" your point.
 
452Boldwin
      ID: 5396271
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 02:07
Yes, she was attempting a prank similar in intellectual seriousness to a pie throwing incident. Anyone who rushes a candidate deserves to be put down hard because sometimes those incidents end up like Wallace in a wheel chair and you never know how serious the intended damage is.

Since when is pointing to a great writer and thinker, silence around here?

Funny, when Kerry's security tazed a genuinely non-threatening individual you thot it was funny, but when Rand's security puts their security threat on the ground his security should do hard time.
 
453Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 06:44
I never saw any video of "thugs" working over (gasp! a black) man. I saw video of a scrum with an indeterminite agressor. Which was the same video you saw. In fact you were the one who demanded that it was plain as day that one particular guy in the video was clearly stomping a defenseless conservative before another black thug emerged obviously faking an injury. Until you realized the guy being "stomped" was actually another SEIU member and the obvious faker was Gladney - your victim.

Yesterday you saw video of a defenseless woman held to the ground by several men (taken down for a likely legitimate reason) get literally stomped by a man while her head was on the curb which luckily (for the presence of a camera, most likely) only resulted in a concussion. And your comments on the incident show no regard for an assault which was actually caught on tape this time.
 
454Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 09:07
There is a fundamental disconnect with reality for you folks when your arguments are so weak you have to invent bad motives and smear everyone else to maintain your own worldview

Boldwin, who cares what the motive was? I have little problem with them taking the lady down. Maybe it was a bit rough but not over the top. But stomping on her head after she's down and secured? Thats assault plain and simple. There is no defense for the guy who stomped her head. None at all. Not in any way shape or form.
 
455Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 09:32
That's the part I don't understand, either. You *might* stop someone making a beeline for the candidate for security reasons. But once she's down on the ground there's no reason to stomp on her. And that stomping was clearly deliberate.
 
456Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 09:50
If the victim were a tea party protester and the politician Al Franken, does anyone really think
Baldwin would take the same position?

It's hard for me to take someone's 'principles' to heart when they ride the winds of partisanship. How is it possible that thugs only exist among the SEIU or ACORN, but never with the tea party or Minutemen? How is it possible to ignore facts unless they coincide with your worldview?

You guys think

a fundamental disconnect with reality for you folks

your arguments are so weak you have to invent

you thot it was funny


I don't suppose we'll ever escape the use of "you" as a plural pronoun in your(singular) presentations, but it continues to be an ineffective, as well as annoying ploy, since I never know when I'm included. I can assure you that I oppose violent tactics whether it's initiated by SEIU thugs or tea party thugs.
 
457Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 09:57
Stomper wants apology from woman he stomped

You know, after reading through Baldwin's posts above, this doesn't really surprise me. The expectation that a Tea Partier can do and say anything, and expect others to apologize to them when their actions are made more public and subject to criticism, reveals a deeply ingrained social break.
 
458boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 10:04
not to defend the stomping but the guy makes a good point:

"She's a professional at what she does," Profitt added, "and I think when all the facts come out, I think people will see that she was the one that initiated the whole thing."

This is what she does, being security for a political candidate is the guys volunteer job, if he screws up it is expected. It is kind of like how NFL players contracts void them from playing pick up games.
 
459Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 10:08
The guy took it to a whole other level when he stepped on her when she was down and not a threat to do anything.
 
460Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 10:08
from the above link:

Profitt also blamed the incident on his back pain.

more blaming the victim. lol. i'm with PD - people like Baldwin, Profitt, and other Tea Partiers feel they are above the law with their actions, and their actions, no matter how cretinous - are justifable.

from his own post 449: There is a fundamental disconnect with reality for you folks...
 
461Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 11:18
Honestly I think I identify more with the Tea Party than any other political party right now. But Profitt is an idiot and needs to shut up. Plain and simple.

This MoveOn employee absolutely should realize she was putting herself into an incitefull situation. She's got to look at what she did and realize that the combination of her action and venue were inappropriate.

But Profitt is NOT the guy to be calling her out on this. The only words that should be coming out of his mouth are, "I'm very sorry for stomping on your head while you were down and I truly hope you are ok." Followed shortly by, "Man, I hope I don't get sued and thrown in jail for my criminal assault on that lady who was being held on the ground."
 
462Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 11:38
Well put.
 
463walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 11:43
Foreign Policy: Int'l Journalistic Views of Tea Party
 
464Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 13:29
From walk's link:
The Spanish are less mystified and more alarmed. "We don't know if we feel more profound horror or more profound pity," El Pais wrote. The author refers to the Tea Party as an extremist movement and notes that O'Donnell (for example) is "proudly extremist." From there, the newspaper warns that "sometimes totalitarianism results from the best intentions and fanaticism grows in the most benign and public settings. The United States is living in one of these moments ... in which its values are in conflict with one another."

You can save the horror, but perhaps feel a little pity for the Delaware Republican party. Personally, I've got a heaping serving of schadenfreude because she is going down with a whimper, losing by 17 furlongs.
 
465boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 15:23
RE 463, interesting read, seems like the germans, chinease, and french(even with there anti-anglo slant) have it about right.
 
466Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 16:32
Records: Miller admits to computer use, lying

Alaska GOP Senate hopeful Joe Miller was suspended for three days and referred to an employee assistance program after admitting to improperly using three government computers, then cleaning the caches to cover up the activities, according to personnel records released Tuesday under court order.
 
467DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 16:56
Meh, on a scale of 1-10 of things I care about, this is about a 3. However, I did find this snippet quite hilarious:

"Miller said the fact he is flawed shows he is like others and is a value he brings as a candidate."
 
468Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 16:59
"Miller said the fact he is flawed shows he is like other Republicans and is a value he brings as a candidate."

Absolutely Onion-esque!
 
469biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 18:07
The party that places a high value on bumbling, closet deviants.

"Vote for us! We can't do the job and are downright creepy."
 
470Boldwin
      ID: 499112720
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 21:11
Maybe he had to because he unwisely opened links sent to him by liberals.
 
471walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Oct 28, 2010, 11:43
maybe
 
472Boldwin
      ID: 471028117
      Thu, Nov 11, 2010, 11:07
Meet Kristi Noem.

Bat~!@#crazy of course.
 
473walk
      ID: 517172117
      Thu, Nov 11, 2010, 13:49
She is poised, but her answers still point to the inherent lack of understanding about how to cut the deficit...cutting spending while also cutting taxes leading to deficit reduction is make-believe math. And the stock McConnell, raising taxes on those making more than $250k will hurt small biz avoids the issue of the real wealthy continuing to get greater tax relief than the middle class. I liked her demeanor, and I am sure that more tea party folks elected will start behaving more normally when interviewed.
 
474Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 00:30
Beck's two-day Soros bender.
 
475Boldwin
      ID: 471028117
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 06:56
It is just tragic that an antisemite like Soros can find so many willing to hurl that charge in defense of him.

Just how many governments is a handful of uberwealthy investors supposed to get away with overthrowing before we are allowed to examine what they are doing closely?
 
476DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 09:09
Hey, given your background on here, we thought you'd have been all in favor of religious persecution of others.

Also, admit that you're not at all against the government's overthrow by uberwealthy investors, as long as they do what you want them to. Are you suddenly in favor of campaign finance reform limiting all sorts of contributions, or are you just running that particular Trojan horse out there because you can't admit that you'd be all in favor of a bought and paid for theocracy?

Never mind, I know the answer to that one. You'd happily (and very hypocritically) cut off Soros' funding but do whatever you could to make the other happen. So spare us all your forked tongue about "oh, bought and paid for governments are the problem*" (*just the ones that won't treat people crappily because I think a bearded man in the sky told me they're bad). Spare us your forked tongue about "freedom*" (*except for gays, blacks, Mexicans, and Muslims, of course -- these are all to be granted as few of the rights of other humans as we can get away with). Spare us your talk about "Christian ideals*" (*unless we all missed the memo on "hate your neighbor" -- if so, I apologize, and no I don't want a citation).

You don't want any of those things. You want to use government and power and money as a disgusting hammer to ram your perverted cult's hate speech about the world down the throat of the world. Those asterisks that you're trying to hide -- you don't hide them well at all. In other words, stop pretending that you care about "freedom" and "bought governments" and "Christian ideals", and just admit that "I want to use government as a tool to advance my personal religious beliefs at the expense of others". We're all on to your scam anyway -- if you can be honest and do this it'll at least save time and we can discuss the actual merits of your theocratic ideas.
 
477Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 09:16
Another unfounded "anti-semite" call against Soros. Pretty damn sad. Even the ADL has decried such a slanderous charge against him.

What do the Jews know about anti-semitism anyway? Beck knows better...
 
478Boldwin
      ID: 471028117
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 09:57
Armageddon and myriads of angels are all I need and it's coming no matter what I or you do about it.

But before that happens we're all going to suffer under the reich Soros and his buddies are building. I'm just hoping one or two of you get ready to survive it, and that most of you recognize what's happening as it unfolds. Maybe it can be delayed a day or two.
 
479Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 10:15
Beck knows better...

What makes you think so? Glenn Beck is so absorbed with his celebrity to the point that he makes up his own facts, and likely believes them.

Similar to the claims of a CBS/media plot by Sarah Palin is minimized by those who view CBS as an evil entity that should be lied about, those who view George Soros as the embodiment of evil have no problem lying about him because exposure of his agenda is paramount, so some dramatization is justified, facts be damned.

When Media Matters counters the falsehoods presented by Beck, the reaction is predictable - Media Matters is a Soros-financed vehicle for the puppet master. The problem is that, regardless of Soros' affiliation with Media Matters, facts are facts, resulting in the bulk of Beck's allegations , to borrow a phrase, having been fisked and obliterated.
 
480Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 10:38
Armageddon and myriads of angels are all I need and it's coming no matter what I or you do about it.

But before that happens we're all going to suffer under the reich Soros and his buddies are building. I'm just hoping one or two of you get ready to survive it, and that most of you recognize what's happening as it unfolds. Maybe it can be delayed a day or two.


LOL.

 
481boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 15:01
That cat seems to have really big paws.
 
482Boldwin
      ID: 571051214
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 15:33
I would love to see your faces when the Tea Party got Allen West elected president.
 
483Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 17:10
The first integrity test for teaparty neophytes in Congress will be whether they support John Boehner, TARP-tainted champion of lobyist and special interest pocket linings, for Speaker.
 
484Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 17:11
Or does a vow to fly commercial square up all that other "DC-insider-politics-as-usual" stuff for them?
 
485Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Nov 12, 2010, 17:17
Is that first class commercial, or coach? What about all the people who accompany him (including Secret Service personnel)?
 
486Mith
      ID: 910231313
      Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 14:26
That Boldy wants no part of post 483 speaks volumes.

Allen West

This is the guy who named local radio host Joyce Kaufman to be his chief of staff. Her claim to national attention was a statement during a speech at a July 4th Tea Party rally that “If ballots don’t work, bullets will”, a statement that prompted someone to call in threats that wound up locking down schools libraries and government buildings.

That it was apparently not a supporter or West or Kaufman is irrelevent. I have no idea why the threat of gun violence against fellow Americans has become so fashionable among tea parties, but it is a very stron cause for concern. This is by no means any isolated incident.

Anyone trusted with a broad public platform has a responsibility to know that inciteful, incendiary speech can lead to situations like this or far worse. Apparently some believe their "tea party" brand of patriotism with access to the air waves absolves them of any such accountability.
 
487Boldwin
      ID: 571051214
      Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 19:50
MITH

The Boehner jury is still out for me. I wasn't an early backer of the guy who tred to beat my beloved Newt out for speaker way back.

I gotta tell you tho, every "Hell No" won him beau coup points with me.
 
488Boldwin
      ID: 571051214
      Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 19:53
That Boldy wants no part of post 483 speaks volumes.

I expect the trolls to interpret every second I take off as a victory, but I expect you to assume it's just me trying to drop the bad habit.
 
489Boldwin
      ID: 571051214
      Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 19:55
Allen West? I want to see him on the ticket vs Obama.
 
490Mith
      ID: 910231313
      Sat, Nov 13, 2010, 20:09
You want to see him continue to espouse a violent coup in the event that democracy produces unfavorable results?

Oops, I forgot, only Democrats are to be judged by the company they select.
 
491Boldwin
      ID: 571051214
      Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 03:07
Do you know what a disciple of Antonio Gramsci is, MITH? He's Pol Pot with a great deal of patience turning the corner. Your concerns are 180 degrees misplaced.
 
492Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 09:48
I gotta tell you tho, every "Hell No" won him beau coup points with me.

It's a sad commentary on the political climate in this country when "Hell, no" is held up as an admirable political philosophy. We saw basically the same thing in 2006 when Pelosi and the Democrats took over Congress and proclaimed that the American people had coronated their party as the voice of America.
Problem is that there are many diverse voices in this country. A "Hell, no" philosophy doesn't serve the best interests of the country regardless of what direction it comes from.

In 2008, 135 million people voted. In 2010, 87 million people voted. That's almost 50 million voters sitting out, more an indictment of the "Hell, no" philosophy than any kind of political mandate.
 
493Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 11:00
#491 confirms the 2nd sentence in #490.
 
494Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 11:01
...and supports the first sentence, as well.
 
495Boldwin
      ID: 571051214
      Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 14:01
"Hell, no" philosophy doesn't serve the best interests of the country regardless of what direction it comes from.

Almost everything congress does costs money we don't have.

'Hell no' is exactly the philosophy we need.
 
496Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 14:17
'Hell no' is exactly the philosophy we need.

I'll remind you of this position when your tea party heroes are trying unsuccessfully to make budget cuts in social programs.
 
497Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 16, 2010, 10:49
Bachman decries "Gangster Government " at DC rally

She decried what she called “gangster government, when government goes in and takes over one private industry at a time.”

This is the person who founded the Tea Party caucus in the House. Is she committed to legislation which supports her ideology, or committed to making irresponsible, unsupported statements which make her and her caucus look foolish and embarrassing?

 
498Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Thu, Dec 02, 2010, 14:11
Ladies and Gentlemen, your Tea Party shows its true colors...

Members of the Congressional Tea Party Caucus may tout their commitment to cutting government spending now, but they used the 111th Congress to request hundreds of earmarks that, taken cumulatively, added more than $1 billion to the federal budget.

According to a Hotline review of records compiled by Citizens Against Government Waste, the 52 members of the caucus, which pledges to cut spending and reduce the size of government, requested a total of 764 earmarks valued at $1,049,783,150 during Fiscal Year 2010, the last year for which records are available.


i fully expect supporters to turn on the Victrola to spin, spin, spin, at 3...2....1...NOW...
 
499Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Dec 02, 2010, 14:58
Which party is most likely to cut government spending?

D
R
Tea
 
500DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Dec 02, 2010, 15:08
None of the above.
 
501Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Thu, Dec 02, 2010, 15:23
The real question is - Which party is most likely to cut government spending?

Tea
Libertarian
Green
Marijuana
Socialist

and the answer is...

Doesn't matter, none of them will ever have the power to make the decisions.
 
502biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Dec 02, 2010, 15:24
It's the wrong question. Which Party is most likely to decrease government debt?

I would submit D, given they are the only ones even half serious about improving the economy to increase revenues.
 
503DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Dec 02, 2010, 15:37
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
 
504Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Dec 02, 2010, 15:38
I prefer the question: Which party will FUBAR our economy through a combination of intellectual inflexibility and lack of economic policy ideas?
 
505Boldwin
      ID: 481137214
      Thu, Dec 02, 2010, 15:52
They even got Mitch McConnell to vote against them. Prolly would have voted for them if there was a chance they'da been banned but still...

There is still no way you can tout the pro-earmark crowd as the fiscally responsible ones. Not honestly.
 
506Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Dec 02, 2010, 15:58
And, there's still no way you can tout the pro-strong national defense crowd as the fiscally responsible ones. It just depends on whether you think our money should be spent helping to feed and house our fellow man, or blowing up our fellow man.
 
507DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Dec 02, 2010, 16:00
The Christian thing to do would be to blow 'em up, I think. Although, I always get confused -- 'tis better to teach a man to nuke himself than to give him nukes, right?
 
508Tree
      ID: 2010312116
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 00:26
There is still no way you can tout the pro-earmark crowd as the fiscally responsible ones. Not honestly.

absolutely. which is why the Tea Party has gone from a really bad idea to an even worse idea.
 
509Mith
      ID: 451132222
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 00:28
LOL at 507.
 
510Boldwin
      ID: 451159221
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 09:46
Tree

There is no point in me trying to figure out which concept has eluded you when there are so many likely candidates.
 
511Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 14:59
no problem Baldwin.

it's like trying to figure out which tenats of Christianity you believe, since so many of them completely allude you.

i'm sorry i won't be there to see the look on your face when you meet your maker. it won't be pretty, but it will be pretty funny.

(if a mod feels the need to delete this and post 510, that's a-ok with me, but lately, the streak of unprovoked attacks from Baldwin is once again starting to be a bit much)
 
512Boldwin
      ID: 291145317
      Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 08:20
Add allude to the list.
 
513Tree
      ID: 2010312116
      Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 11:56
yes, that was a typo, hastily pecking away while at work. the point though, was made.
 
514Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 13:57
Christine O'Donnell: Extending unemployment benefits is a tragedy -- like Elizabeth Edwards dying of cancer.

Perspective, people.
 
515Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jan 14, 2011, 11:59
Tennessee Tea Party curricula demands: No teaching about minorities which gets in the way of our deifying the Founding Fathers.
 
516walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Jan 14, 2011, 13:37
Interesting how that pic of the rally associated with that article looks all white. I wonder what some of the few minority tea party members are thinking right now ("what have I done?").
 
517Tree
      ID: 24115767
      Sun, Jan 23, 2011, 12:47
Tea partiers say defense in mix for budget cuts

"The widely held sentiment among Tea Party Patriot members is that every item in the budget, including military spending and foreign aid, must be on the table," said Mark Meckler, co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots. "It is time to get serious about preserving the country for our posterity. The mentality that certain programs are 'off the table' must be taken off the table."
 
518Tree
      ID: 4010381517
      Wed, Jan 26, 2011, 15:36
Fact Checking Rep. Bachmann's "Tea Party Response" To The State Of The Union

Insisting that she was not upstaging the official GOP response to President Obama's State of the Union, Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) offered a combative and highly misleading speech of her own following the president's address. In her "Tea Party Response," Bachmann repeated a litany of false right-wing talking points about everything from the Recovery Act and job losses to the debt and "16,500 IRS agents."
 
519Mith
      ID: 51253421
      Sat, Mar 05, 2011, 01:27
Tea Party nation finally figures out John Boehner isn't one of them.
 
520walk
      ID: 517172117
      Sat, Mar 05, 2011, 13:24
The tea party is finding out that their extreme views are just now not going to be implemented. The naivety and selfishness is mind boggling. Not so dissimilar to the 'tudes of the protesters in Wisconsin and such, IMO. Me, me, me. Of course, the tea partiers are on another planet that they did not realize their views were being co-opted by the republicans to continue to endorse big biz and the wealthy. That's where the $ and power are.

NYT, Blow, Tea Party Tailspin
 
521Boldwin
      ID: 50247518
      Sat, Mar 05, 2011, 19:47
Keep throwing them out until you find a real one.
 
522Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Mon, May 09, 2011, 15:13
Tea Party Leader: We'll Take The Debt Ceiling Hike If You Put Gay Troops Back In The Closet

what the tea party is REALLY about - not fiscal conservativeness, but rather, social conservativeness.

...at a press conference in Washington, where a tea party leader told reporters he'd be willing to accept a bump in the debt ceiling if Republicans promise to put an end to "military effeminzation."

read that right? "effeminization". which isn't just anti-gay, but anti-woman.

(Tea Party Founding Fathers chairman William Temple) offered a long list of things the Republicans could do that would lead the "tea party movement as a whole" to "possibly forgive Boehner and the House Republicans a small bump in the debt limit."

On the list was keeping the front lines of America's wars as free of openly gay people and women of any sexual leaning as possible.

Temple said that "if the House Armed Services Committee and the Pentagon slow down on injecting open homosexuality and females into forward combat roles," tea partiers might be able to put up with their new Republican House voting to ensure American government services paid for with more borrowed cash.


not that any of this is actually surprising.
 
523Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, May 09, 2011, 15:22
So much for the Tea Party being about economic and fiscal issues only. Their roots as pissed off far right social conservative Republicans are coming the fore now that the good economic news is (slowing) continuing.
 
524Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 00:56
This is a bizarre event.

A moveon.org organized picnic with about 18 attendees (most of them women over 65) at an Oregon public park is descended upon by 35 or so (AFP) Tea Partiers who apparently intimidated them into leaving. No physical confrontation, they walk up to the picnic and stand there. One guy sarcastically offers to help them pack up their things, another calls a woman a communist and one nutter seems to just repeat "Van Jones."

The video, which was created and posted on Youtube (though they disabled embedding) by the AFP group, makes clear that they were very proud of themselves for disrupting the gathering.



Apparently ruining the Golden Girls' picnic wasn't enough for some of these citizen defenders of freedom.
The liberal group — organized by MoveOn.org — decided to leave the park and move its potluck to a nearby home. Members of the conservative group followed, parking at the entrance of a private lane leading to the home to continue their protest.

Roseburg Democrats Dean and Sara Byers said Monday they told tea party members who followed that they were not welcome to drive down the lane to their home.

The Byerses said they got out of their car to stop vehicles from entering the driveway and one tea party member almost ran them over.

Sara Byers said she was so shaken she called 911. She said a Douglas County deputy called about an hour and a half later and said he had been unable to respond because of other incidents. Byers said she was still considering filing a criminal complaint against members of the tea party for harassment.

A leader of the tea party group, Rich Raynor of Roseburg, disputed the liberal group's version of events.

“They are liars,” said Raynor, director of Douglas County Americans for Prosperity. “That is what communists do.”


Conservative organizers defended their actions and said they will continue to protest similar gatherings.

“We were there to find out what they had to say and to bring a notice to the public that this kind of thing was going on. Quite honestly, if they have it again, then we are really going to make it well known,” Raynor said.

Raynor said the group believes MoveOn.org is a communist front and said he would not stand for America becoming a fascist nation.
 
525Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 08:15
Yes, we must protect personal freedoms. Well, as long as those freedoms fit within my views of what is right. Bah, I wish their was a way to make them see their hypocrisy.
 
526Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 11:00
less than 9 hours after MITH's posting, the video has been removed by whomever posted it. not shocking.
 
527Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 11:08
Heh. These are the people helping the House GOP make economic choices for our country.
 
528Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 12:15
Hey, Baldwin, maybe they like to call themselves the "tea party" because that is the color of their shirts.
 
530Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 14:17
Tea Party head: We should be spending more on military because it stimulates the economy.

When memes get mixed up by the short-sighted, comedy results.
 
531sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 14:28
"Go to war", the defense dept needs more bombs.

What a way to "stimulate" the economy.
 
532Tree
      ID: 27710814
      Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 15:10
Wasn't that a movie? And a comedy at that..
 
533Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 10:05
Joe Walsh (no, not that one, the Tea Party congressman from Illinois) is getting sued by his ex-wife for over $100 K for child support non-payments.

I'm not going to say that the Tea Party is against child support--I don't know of any who are, even government-ordered child support. But it'll be interesting to see what their response is to one of their own who appears to be a bit of a dead beat dad.
 
534Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 10:55
He's a deadbeat and needs to pay up.
 
535sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 12:13
re post 533, see also post 1148
 
536Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 14:41
Tea Party rep blames bank for giving him a loan. Or something like that. Hard to tell what he means by suing a bank for giving him a loan he asked for.
 
537Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 15:41
Well, if the bank made the loan with full knowledge that Graves couldn't possibly repay it, I actually agree that the bank is dumb and shouldn't be able to recover.

At the same time, if the bank knew graves couldn't repay, then Graves knew he couldn't repay the loan. So he's just as dumb for taking a loan he couldn't pay and should have his wages garnished or something to pay back the money he never should have gotten.

Catch-22.
 
538DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 15:49
Meh, I don't see the catch-22 here at all.

Sure, the bank is dumb for loaning it to him if they should have known he couldn't repay it. Dumb doesn't mean they aren't owed the money according to the terms of the loan though. I fail to see how being dumb gets him off the hook for it at all since he voluntarily signed for the loan (and all that agrees to, including the novel concept that it'll have to be paid back), and I'm not buying for a minute that he was duped into anything.
 
539biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 15:55
The bank wasn't dumb. The investors who bought the CDO the loan was probably packaged into were dumb.

Well maybe they weren't dumb either. As the largely got bailed out by the tax-payer.

If you are a taxpayer looking to find out who is dumb, try the bathroom mirror.

Socialism for the rich, everyone else needs to spread the friskies in a light layer on the moldy bread.
 
540sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 16:25
Yet another Teabagger, saying do as I say, not as I do. (Just where DOES that 'personal accountability' thing fall anyway?)
 
541Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 16:44
Survey says...


...tea party less popular than atheists and Muslims.

curses, foiled again.
 
542boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 17:38
I find that survey in doubt since it found Palin more popular than the tea party...
 
543Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 17:42
That's because she's far more entertaining.
 
544Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 16:41
Audience at tea party debate cheers leaving uninsured to die

slowly but surely, they're becoming a Death Cult.
 
545DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 17:03
You know what? I don't have nearly as big an intellectual problem with that as I do with the morons who shout Death Panels! every chance they get while writing their check to the insurance company. Then again, maybe they're pretty much the same people.

It's unquestionably pretty heartless, and it's not a society I want to be a part of, but at least it's intellectually consistent to say "I think everyone should be totally responsible for themselves, and if they aren't, or if they fall on hard times for any reason, **** them". Which is what the answer actually is, droning about "well, charities will wave their magic fairy wand and make it happen" notwithstanding.
 
546Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 17:41
Just watched the clip and I disagree somewhat. This is example number 837,285,301 of Republicans on a libertarian kick who haven't really thought through the ramifications of their laize faire attitudes. When Paul says, "people should be free to take risks..." big cheers. Blitzer says, "So, you would let him die" and one idiot screams "yeah!" but the rest are quiet, kind of like their response when you ask them if they are cool with closing their kids school because they simply hate paying taxes.

What was much more shocking to me was Paul's statement about what was causing health care to be so expensive, the lack of competition because of licensing rules. He is in favor of legalizing "alternative health care", what ever that means. Hey, I'm in total agreement that there are too few doctors, that the AMA has their monopolistic hand of the med school spigot and there needs to be more med schools and more med students. Is Paul in favor of letting non-doctors practice medicine? Sure sounds like it. He is really, really libertarian, off in crazyville.
 
547DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 18:00
Not sure what's crazy about that idea... as long as there's full disclosure.

Why should my wife, who gets strep throat about once every 18 months and knows exactly what it feels like and is intelligent enough to not kill herself, have to go sit in a doctor's office, have the doctor prescribe medicine, go to another person who is licensed to only dispense medicine... all to do something she could otherwise walk into Walgreens and treat herself for maybe 1/4th* the cost and 1/10th the time?

Now, that said, if there's serious stuff going down, I want a serious doctor, not the quack who's only maybe qualified to diagnose and treat colds and the flu. But if we had a lot more of the people qualified to treat colds and flu, getting treatment for colds and flu would be cheaper, and the "real" doctor's time would be freed up to deal with the serious stuff.

*Figure clearly pulled out of my ass, but you get the point.
 
548Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 18:08
Because not only will most people not know what to do (which, of course, will cause even larger problems overall), but because even people that do know what they are doing would be overusing medicines like antibiotics, which would affect us all.

Can you imagine the superbugs that will arise as a result of anyone who feels like it self-medicating with antibiotics?

The free market isn't so free when we all have to pay a price for it in the form of very real health care effects.
 
549DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 19:42
Meh, perhaps that particular example was poorly chosen. Take a look at the larger point though.
 
550Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 05:40
Spent force indeed

Democrat top strategists recognize what they are calling the 'Grand New Alliance'...of Libertarians, the Christian Right and the Tea Party activists...as a mighty force for a long time to come.
An harmonic convergence -- a "grand new alliance" -- is occurring among Libertarians, the Christian Right and the disparate legions of Tea Party activists that is transforming politics as we have known it.

Today, the Libertarian-Religious-Tea Party Alliance is a consciously strategic federation of separate, but inter-connected, wings of a potent right-wing political machine that is energized by the frightening uncertainties of the economic downturn, mobilized in rigid opposition to a President they cannot abide, emboldened by confrontation with some of their historic allies within the broader Republican conservative movement, and fueled by a new avalanche of post-Citizen's United-inspired financial resources.

Its political power has risen rapidly and dramatically. In just the past twelve months, the GNAs' successes have affected virtually every nook and cranny of American politics - sweeping victories in the 2010 Congressional and state elections, grid-locked legislative stand-off with Congressional Democrats and President Obama, scorched earth political wars in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, New Jersey and other states with overwhelming Republican elected majorities, and a dramatic hijacking of the current Republican Presidential Primary process through the candidacies of Rick Perry, Herman Cain, Michelle Bachmann, Ron Paul, Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum.

Stein goes on to describe the three key elements of the GNA -- libertarians, the religious right, and the tea party -- their numerical strength, what they believe, how they get funded, work together and resolve their differences. He notes that the dominant element, the tea party, successfully projects a "powerfully resonant right-wing populist economic (anti-tax, anti-regulation, anti-government, anti-Obama) message that is drowning out reasoned debate, causing legislative gridlock, and strengthening reactionary forces."

Worse:

...Their narrative is delivered daily (through GNA's various local, state and national institutions and media outlets) to an estimated 40 or 50 million activists who are deeply committed to electing Republicans in 2012 at every level in every state in the country.

Stein points out the weaknesses of the three groups as individual entities, but adds:

But acting in concert, the Libertarians, the Christian Right and the Tea Party have become a grand new alliance that has seized control of the Republican message, become the dominant political voice in the Republican Party, is driving the Republican Congressional agenda, is creating political havoc in selected states, and is orchestrating the theatrical drama of the Republican presidential primary process.

Clearly, the whole of this alliance is far more powerful than the mere sum of its parts. The grand new alliance is not just challenging the leadership prerogatives and institutional dominance of the grand old party, it is methodically positioning itself for a wholesale dismantling of 20th Century Republicanism.

...the sophistication and potency of the non-party, non-candidate, independent political machinery that the GNA has at its disposal and the vast financial resources it will raise next year. It will almost certainly out-raise and out-spend the Republican Party in 2012 - my estimate is that the GNA could raise $400-500 million or more for its independent 2012 electoral activities.

This money will be used to both demonize and denigrate President Obama and Democratic candidates at every level, as well as to mobilize tens of millions of Libertarian, Christian Right and Tea Party voters.

The Supreme Court's decision in the Citizen's United case in 2009 opened the floodgates for individuals, corporations and unions to make unlimited and often unreported contributions to non-party, non-candidate, non-profit organizations like the ones built over the past several decades by the GNA. To maximize this financial opportunity, the GNA has built a prodigious fundraising machine that has identified and convinced a new generation of wealthy GNA donors -- including, but not limited to, Texas energy barons, New York hedge fund managers, and Silicon Valley entrepreneurs - to donate millions to the GNA political machinery.

An aligned, well-financed and strategically deployed GNA political machine will wreak havoc against Democrats is 2012...This same army of GNA mobilized voters could devastate Democrats in local, state and Congressional elections in many states in 2012.
The preceding has been mainly HUFFPO quotes from a piece by David Stein interspersed with Dem Strategist J.P.Green commentary.

The guys at the top realize exactly what is going on because this 'GNA', particularly on the financing side, is just doing to the Republican Party, what Soros already did to the Democratic Party in an end around of establishment party figures and financing. It just took them a little longer to figure out how to use McCain Feingold.
 
551Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 12:39
Dems have been killing to GOP on fundraising. I'm not counting the Tea Party out, but since it is unlikely that they will get a presidential candidate they like I don't think we'll see much of them in that race.

Certain Congressional races might be interesting, and a handful of governor races, but that's about it.

Frankly, if the Dems take back the House the only thing that will save the Tea Party is gerrymandered districts and vote suppression. Its all that they will have left.
 
552Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 16:14
since it is unlikely that they will get a presidential candidate they like I don't think we'll see much of them in that race

They already have a strategy to handle that. They are actually planning on focusing on congress to counter the effect of a non-Tea Party president of either party if necessary.
 
553sarge33rd
      ID: 359122312
      Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 16:25
Combining various group of single issue voters, and putting up candidates who do not appeal to each groups single issue...does not a "block" make. It will be interesting, to watch your back pedaling w/o an admission of error, over the next 4+ years.
 
554Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 17:21
They already have a strategy to handle that.

The strategy is to purchase even more 18th century costumes and scream "no" even louder...
 
555Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 17:28
Tea Party politics, in a Venn diagram:

 
556Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 17:25
Why we got Ayn Rand instead of FDR: Thomas Frank on How Tea Party Populism Derailed a New New Deal
 
557Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 19:09
Amazing. Not one word about how the Tea Party thot we couldn't afford one more day of Barney Frank's Community Reinvestment Act Big Government Socialism.

Oh politicians have been catering to economic conservatives have they? Yeah right. Every creeping step of socialism's devouring of the American way of life.
 
558Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 21:14
Math has never been their strong suit. Maybe the point was made in a different chapter of that book.
 
559Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 22:27
Trying to see things thru the other guy's eyes is often useful. Tho surprisingly hard to do.

Here, to his credit, is a thotful and well educated liberal trying to get inside the mind of conservatism.
No simple defense of one's own place and privileges, the conservative position stems from a genuine conviction that a world thus emancipated will be ugly, brutish, and dull. It will lack the excellence of a world where the better man commands the worse. This vision of the connection between excellence and rule is what brings together in postwar America that unlikely alliance of the capitalist, with his vision of the employer's untrammeled power in the workplace; the traditionalist, with his vision of the father's rule at home; and the statist, with his vision of a heroic leader pressing his hand upon the face of the earth. Each in his way subscribes to this statement, from the 19th century, of the conservative creed: "To obey a real superior ... is one of the most important of all virtues—a virtue absolutely essential to the attainment of anything great and lasting."

The notion that conservative ideas are a mode of reactionary practice is likely to raise some hackles. It has long been an axiom on the left that the defense of power and privilege is an enterprise devoid of ideas, that right-wing politics is an emotional swamp rather than a movement of considered opinion.
---
Lionel Trilling described American conservatism as a mélange of "irritable mental gestures which seek to resemble ideas."
---
Yet nothing could be further from the truth. Conservatism is an idea-driven praxis, and no amount of preening from the right or polemic from the left can reduce or efface the catalog of mind one finds there.

Others will be put off by this argument for a different reason: It threatens the purity and profundity of conservative ideas. For many, the word "reaction" connotes an unthinking, lowly grab for power. But reaction is not reflex. It begins from a position of principle—that some are fit, and thus ought, to rule others—and then recalibrates that principle in light of a challenge from below.
---
To be conservative, then, is to prefer the familiar to the unknown, to prefer the tried to the untried, fact to mystery, the actual to the possible, the limited to the unbounded, the near to the distant, the sufficient to the superabundant, the convenient to the perfect, present laughter to utopian bliss.
Well nice try, lots of interesting precedents and philosophers cited, but no cigar.

Conservatism doesn't stem from a desire to see robber barrons and queens keep their baubles and one more please in honor of their superiority.

What this liberal cannot begin to wrap his mind around is that conservatism presently is based on a century of empirical evidence that utopianism has never worked, will never work and is in fact inimical to the class and individual interests of every man, women and child with the exception of the utopian overlords and even they face some frights.
 
560Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 22:37
Liberals on the otherhand seem mesmerized by the glittering of the perfect ideal, the the unbounded, the superabundant, to utopian bliss, heedless to any risk associated no matter how grave, how well documented and how many times proven.
 
561sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 23:53
And what you Boldwion have utterly failed to grasp; Utopianism bears no resemblance to the liberal ideals. History, facts, empirical evidance ALL supports, that Liberals in power in Washington DC, result in lower unemployment, higher GDP and increased corporate profits vs when Republicans are in charge. That is not an assertion on my part, it is fact, shown to hold true from circa 1930 thru 2000. Since 2000, we have seen the GOP in power, pass deregulation and tax cuts; resulting in HUGE deficits and near financial ruin. That near ruin, was ONLY staved off, when a Democrat spent TONS of money, in order to bolster the economy because the consumer could not. Hence, we have a ballooning deficit. Yet that deficit, is not our chief problem. THAT, is putting the American to work. Get America working again, and math will solve the deficit.
 
562Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 01:12
"Tea Party favorites such as Stephen Fincher of Tennessee were swept into Congress on a wave of anger over government-funded bailouts of banks. Now those incumbents are collecting thousands of dollars for re-election campaigns from the same Wall Street firms whose excesses they criticized. They have taken no significant steps to curb them or prevent future taxpayer-financed rescues."

Amazing! So they got in by cynically manipulating voters on the Right and now are in bed with the people they demonized? Wow. Who saw this coming?
 
563Boldwin
      ID: 385382422
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 14:38
Since 2000, we have seen the GOP in power, pass deregulation and tax cuts; resulting in HUGE deficits and near financial ruin. That near ruin, was ONLY staved off, when a Democrat spent TONS of money, in order to bolster the economy because the consumer could not.
“Nowhere is the Obama model of massive borrowing, vast increases in the size of the state, more regulations, and class warfare successful — not in California or Illinois, not in Greece, Spain, or Italy, not anywhere. - Victor Davis Hanson.
 
564sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 14:44
In the 1930s, it was in fact successful. the Glass-Steagall, forestall this kind of recession for 70 years. Deregulation brought the recession on, inside of 10 years.

563 is simply, false.
 
565Boldwin
      ID: 385382422
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 16:17
You've spent the best country in the history of the world into the crapper and have nothing to show for it.
 
566sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 16:20
we have more freedoms, options and opportunities than we would have, if we allowed the current GOP Theocracy to take hold.
 
567Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 16:49
"You've spent..."



When you have little sense of history before 2009, and an iffy grasp of numbers, statements like that, and Hanson's, will make you look silly.
 
568slug
      ID: 265522515
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 16:52
565:
If we bypass the Clinton administration's brief encounter with "fiscal responsibility", who led the last administration to have a surplus (or even proposed a budget with a surplus)? I mention this in hopes that you will realize that the "you" in your statement is all of us, not just those that you like to label liberals.
 
569Boldwin
      ID: 385382422
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 19:17
Yeah, let's leave the 'Great Society' spending in grey and hope no one notices the part that was

1) unnecessary, not related to the enumerated powers...unconstitutional when you look at the actual tasks assigned to congress

2) completely wasted money as they were totally counterproductive

3) designed to destroy the culture
 
570sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 19:54
you mean, the less than 1/2 of the debt which would otherwise be declining, were it not for the unwise tax cuts and irrelevant wars?
 
571Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 22:59
The more you turn America into a spent hollowed out shell, the more you degrade culture and character, the more of that defense spending you end up needing.
 
572Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 03:15
hahahaha. Good stuff. Poke him with a stick, and he spits out even more "its the end of American culture" claptrap.

Boldwin: Rooting for American failure since November, 2008.
 
573Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 05:09




"Have I got a candidate for you! He's sitting in my living room waiting to be introduced."

And you've got the nerve to say I'm rooting for America's defeat since 2008. I'm rooting for the defeat of Bill Ayer's revolution. Unlike PD and O.
 
574Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 09:48
More good stuff. Keep your fever dream posts coming, B!
 
575boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 10:58
Re 567: what does that graph show? it would appear we are spending more in Iraq now then when we actually had war going on there? And why does that spending continue? Are we not leaving Afghanistan too? Also including the economic turn down in the graph is misleading, unless you also remove extra revenues gained by economic up turns.
 
576Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 12:10
i like the 40 year old photo of Jane Fonda, because, of course, it's relevant to anything the adults are discussing.
 
577Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 12:39
boikin: The war costs were paid on credit. If we brought the troops home tomorrow, we'll still be paying something for the next 20 years (technically, until the last of the t-bills issued to cover the costs mature).

The economy hasn't recovered. We're still spending tons of money on the food stamp program, for instance, as a direct result of the economy.
 
578DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 13:20
Oooh, I like this game, can I play?

 
579boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 13:24
The war costs were paid on credit.

ok that makes sense, looking at it more carefully that looks about right. Still the leaving out the down turn in the economy is miss leading since it picks the high point in the economy and then assumes that is what the future is going to look like, that like graphing a football players life time earnings and saying, you would not be debt now if only you had not gotten old and had to retire. It is purposely misleading to assume the economy is going to keep going at those rates. I think a graph that might be more interesting would have been one starting in 2000 and showing what would have happened if there was no 9/11.

i think most people will agree that Bush tax cuts probably need to be ended and/or spending needs to be cut to match the lower tax revenues, this probably should have been done in 06 or 07 when the economy was stronger.
 
580Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 14:40
I like the 40 year old photo of Jane Fonda, because, of course, it's relevant to anything the adults are discussing.

When conservatives get accused of rooting against America, it is helpful to remember what genuine 'rooting against America' looks like and remember that we have those exact same rooters against America in office in the form of their home-raised and handpicked candidate.
 
581sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 15:07
No B, one lunatic fringer, does not equate to the every day representative of an ideology. Or should we on the left, judge all of you on the right, by the standard of that one fella from Norway?

I'll let you choose.
 
582Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 21:29
Ayers is TOTALLY representative of the Obama administration.
 
583sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 22:30
(A), I was referring to your 40 yr old pic of Jane Fonda.
(B) What Cabinet Seat does Ayers hold?
(C) I am still awaiting your choice to the question in 581.
 
584Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 00:22
Ayers is pro-Drug War? Pro-drones? For the Bush tax cuts? What kind of sixties radical is this guy?
 
585Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 01:30
Ayers is TOTALLY representative of the Obama administration.

and if by "TOTALLY" you mean "not at all", you're correct.
 
586Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 05:18
A) So what.

B) Shadow Education Czar.

C) Fonda was perfectly representative of every anti-war protester in the 60's and today for that matter. Now if you should start to see Che Breivik t-shirts become the de rigor fashion accessory among the right, I'd grant you your point, but that won't even remotely happen of course.
 
587Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 08:58
I think Obama has made quite a few tactical mistakes so far and one new one I haven't seen discussed anywhere on the web yet...

I think making the illegal Dream Act executive actions just ahead of the Texas Senate runoff election was one of them. It is between establishment RINO and current lt gov David Dewhurst and Tea Party favorite Ted Cruz and Obama raising that issue front and center may be just the push Cruz needs to guarantee a victory July 31.

It is these compromisers that allow Dems to keep making gains even when not being a majority, losing head counts in legislatures and being out of power.
 
588sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 09:58
? What about the "Dream Act", would make it illegal?
 
589Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 10:11
Shadow Education Czar.

Hahahaha. This just keeps getting better and better. This is like double secret probation. "Ayers is a czar. Who are already shadowy. And no one knows he's a czar, so we'll say he's the "Secret Czar. Yeah--that's it!"

This is like playing Right Wing Meme Bingo.
 
590Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 10:55
Let Obama explain it to you...

 
591sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 10:58
Saw that before. (A) That doesnt refer to the Dream Act. (B) The Dream Act, included a rod to citizenship, which is what he can not provide via EO; (C) His EO does NOT provide that road to citizenship and thus is not illegal

not even worthy B, of a "nice try" award
 
592Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 11:03
C) Fonda was perfectly representative of every anti-war protester in the 60's and today for that matter. Now if you should start to see Che Breivik t-shirts become the de rigor fashion accessory among the right, I'd grant you your point, but that won't even remotely happen of course.

there is a big difference between the war protestors of the 1960s/70s and the 2000s/2010s, and even the tiniest of brains can notice that difference.

It is between establishment RINO and current lt gov David Dewhurst and Tea Party favorite Ted Cruz

Dewhurst is playing hardball with Cruz. this is the race i mentioned regarding Cruz' defense of Chinese companies.
 
593Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 11:18
Sarge#591

Congress obviously hasn't passed the measures that Obama will take or he would have been doing them all along. He's bending over unconstitutional-style to get the illegal immigrant sympathizer vote.

And why is he taking this unconstitutional step?

Dem strategists have given up on the idea of making the independents the focus of their turn out the vote efforts. Independents are 7 times more likely to lean republican than democrat this election. Obama is running to the hard left for his hoped for large turnout.
 
594Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 11:23
Independents are 7 times more likely to lean republican than democrat this election.

How many years ago was the last time Baldwin stated an actual fact?
 
595Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 11:32
Why Obama needs to worry about the hispanic vote. They aren't turning out and voting according to the gameplan.
 
596Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 11:46
SZ

When was the last time SZ had a grip on reality? Put down the weed.

This is from the DEMOCRATS best strategists:
Swing voters had much more negative opinions of President Obama's job performance than other voters...

Only 11 percent of swing voters approved of Obama's job performance...

These findings suggest that efforts by the Obama campaign to persuade swing voters are likely to be unproductive and could even backfire. These voters have a decidedly negative view of the President and are very unlikely to vote for him. The best the Obama campaign can hope for is that most of these swing voters will stay at home on Election Day...

These findings suggest that the Obama campaign would be well advised to focus its efforts in the battleground states on voter registration and turnout rather than on trying to win over swing voters...

- The Democratic Strategist

 
597Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 11:53
Focus on the...

1) 11% independents who approve of O's job performance

2) 75% independents disapprove of O's job performance.
 
598sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 12:06
the problem B, with your explanation in 593, is that this EO is NOT unconstitutional. Much like "Obamacare", you will soon learn that.
 
599Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 12:44
596 & 597 are not anywhere near the truth, not even the Hubble telescope can find that far out piece of rubbish.

Page 6 of this poll shows that 50% of Independents approve of President Obama's job as President, 46% disapprove.

That's a FAR cry from 11%/75%. Pull yer head out.
 
600Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 12:59
Also of note: Of those independents who supported Obama in 2008, only a quarter switched to support the GOP in the midterm elections.

Despite the big GOP run in 2010, they did so without much new independent support (mostly, they won because Dems, across the table, didn't go to the polls).
 
601DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 13:44
Jon Stewart properly skewered this "unconstitutional" meme on the Daily Show last night. Hopefully someone more adept at these things can link the video in here.
 
602Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 18:39
not even the Hubble telescope can find that far out piece of rubbish.

The guiding political experts on that site are taken more seriously than just about any political advisor out there. By the democratic party. One of them, Stan Greenberg is a cofounder of Democracy Corps and a designer of the occupy movement and other marxist movements in other countries, notably in Israel.

Also Ruy Teixeira is probably the most respected Democrat insider expert on polling and demographics.

Ed Kilgore and William Galston are just as well respected heavy hitters.

But you just keep imagining that their advice is so far out you'd need a Hubble to see their relevance.

And while you are at it keep imagining that you are tethered to reality and that I am not. It's amusing.
 
603sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 18:40
... the occupy movement and other marxist movements...

Keep describing anything left of Limbaugh in those terms, and nobody will question your insanity.
 
604Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 18:41
And if you really believe independents are more likely to approve of Obama, ask yourself why these experts advise in no way bringing more independents to the polls.
 
605Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 19:05
Not sure who that is referred to, or what "experts" you are referring to either. I only see that polling show that independents already approve of Obama's performance.
 
606Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 13:17
Read the link in #596 already, PD. They are Democrat insiders. You can click on it without your head exploding.
 
607Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 13:48
They too a Gallup poll from late March and filtered out 12 battleground states where a total of 1,046 people were interviewed. Then they filtered out the "swing voters" which they said was 7% of that pool.

So if you sleep better at night believing 65/73 disapproval rate across 12 states back in late march is a reliable sample size to determine how a few million votes will go, more power to you.
 
608Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 15:57
Heavily edited numbers aren't helping your sweeping claim, Boldwin. The truth is that independents, in poll after poll, show greater support than you've put out.
 
609Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 18:44
Tell it to the Democratic party's best experts.
 
610Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 18:50
Don't have to. I'm telling it to you. You've selectively edited some polling numbers in some states to make an expansive statement about independents and Obama that apparently you are unwilling to stand behind, but hope to substitutes some Democrats to do so in absentia

 
611Boldwin
      ID: 355262822
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 23:28
Yeah, except the dem experts and Obama's campaign are acting as if my reading of the numbers beats your reading.
 
612Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 00:00
Keep digging. We can still hear you out of your hole.
 
613Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 00:08
The Obama campaign has given up on swing voters?
 
614Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 00:39
For the record, I'm pretty sure that Boldwin's "reading of the numbers" does not reflect Abramowitz' intent.

First, his numbers refer specifically to swing voters in swing states. Boldy's reaction was to claim that Obama has 11% job approval among "independents", which does not mean the same thing.

Second, the "they" he refers to the writer as is one person, Alan Abramowitz. The piece was not some highly researched collaborative think tank effort. It looks more to me like a lazy hack job slapped together to support a hypothesis he's been kicking around his head while procrastinating on his deadline.

I know I already made te point but sectioning out fewer than 100 of the most fickle-minded poll respondents from 3 months ago to predict how maybe 2 million similarly fickle-minded people will vote 4 months from now? Sure.

Third, the low job approval rating was only half the argument that Obama should give up on swing voters. The rest of it was that these people make up a small portion of the electorate and don't show up at the polls reliably enough to matter much, anyway.

Last, where can I read about how all these other experts and the Obama campaign have signed on - not to Abramowitz' column, but Boldy's "reading of the numbers"?
 
615Boldwin
      ID: 355262822
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 02:56
Clinton went triangulating the middle, his second run. I predict and I see evidence already, that Obama will run to the left.

He's already made two giant sops to the far left and palm-prints on the faces of the center in the form of gay marriage and caving to the illegal immigration lobby.
 
616DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 11:10
Things often appear farther to the left from you when you're backpedaling even farther to the right.
 
617Tree
      ID: 285272910
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 11:33
He's already made two giant sops to the far left and palm-prints on the faces of the center in the form of gay marriage...

nearly half of Americans support gay marriage. that's hardly a "sop" to the far the left.

as the internet says, "if you don't like gay marriage, don't get gay married."

as DWetz pointed out, many things that lean to the Right to 99 percent of people, are the "far left" to you.


 
618Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 12:15
An increasing number of Republicans (although I'm sure that they are now RINO's in your eyes) are changing their view on gay marriage. The radical right Christians seem hell bent on breaking the Republican party. Until it happens and the Democrats are going to be running the country.
 
619Seattle Zen
      ID: 47630913
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 17:12
Samar Ali was elected president of Vanderbilt University’s Student Government Association, making her the school’s first Arab-Muslim student body president.

Fast forward a decade. Ali has graduated from Vanderbilt and Vanderbilt Law School. She has been an associate with the law firm Hogan Lovells, where she helped set up the firm’s Abu Dhabi office. In 2010, she was named a White House Fellow. (Somewhere along the way she also found time to be a three-time Southeastern Tae Kwon Do Black Belt Champion.) In May 2012, Ali, now 30, was appointed international director of Tennessee’s Department of Economic and Community Development (ECD).

A small but vocal number of conservatives and Tea Party activists in Tennessee and elsewhere have strongly opposed Ali’s appointment. Resolutions recently passed by several county Republican organizations have criticized Republican Gov. Bill Haslam for the appointment, and have ridiculously painted Ali as some kind of sleeper agent.

“One of the latest Executive Service Employees has included Samar Ali, an expert in Shariah Compliant Finance which is one of the many ways Islamic terrorism is funded,” a resolution passed by the Stewart County Republican Party reads in part, according to a copy obtained by The Tennessean. Ali’s attackers have focused on a line in her bio that describes how she counseled Hogan Lovells clients in Shariah compliant transactions — a common practice in business dealings in the Middle East. A June blog post at the Frank Gaffney-led Center for Security Policy — a hub of Islamophobia —said that, after Ali’s appointment, “it is reasonable to expect that the financial jihadists will soon be targeting the Volunteer state for infiltration and influence operations.” LMAO!

In Tennessee, A Rising Star Targeted By Anti-Muslim Smears
Disgusting. Proof that as much as we wish it were true, Baldwin is not alone.
 
620Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 17:26
I believe that there are 8 or 9 TN county GOP organizations who have urged the Tennessee governor to not hire any Muslims, gays, or Democrats.
 
621Tree
      ID: 136411916
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 17:51
Proof that as much as we wish it were true, Baldwin is not alone.

obviously.

i mean, the people he masticates about endlessly (such as Michele Bachmann) lead the charge.
 
622Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 17:57
While I am not for blanket restrictions for muslims, we are at war with jihadis and any sane person or government acts accordingly. Trust but verify.

There are plenty of gay republican politicians and government employees. Not thrilled about it, but not up in arms about it either.

Never hire a democrat for a political position. Not ever no how no way never ever ever.
 
623sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 18:01
Reagan was a Democrat.
 
624Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 18:05
Not when republicans hired him.
 
625sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 18:07
really?

Exploded the deficit. Isnt that what you say Dems do?

Raised taxes, ELEVEN times. Isnt that what you say Dems do?

Granted amnesty to how many millions of illegals? Isnt that what you say Dems do?

For that matter, Nixon was more Dem than Republican too.
 
626Tree
      ID: 436291917
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 18:32
While I am not for blanket restrictions for muslims, we are at war with jihadis and any sane person or government acts accordingly. Trust but verify.

we're also at war with some Christianists. should we do the same for all Christians?
 
627Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:08
There is no response I could give to that idiotic post that would pass the liberal censors.
 
628Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:12
At least you can give yourself points for "sticking to your guns" or "not capitulating" or whatever else it is the Far Right does to congratulate itself for being intentionally ungracious.
 
629Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:25
Was it gracious to escort all the conservatives save B7 and myself, off the forum?
 
630Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:40
I've been told by at least one of those conservatives that you were the cause of their leaving, B. Don't try to lay the blame for those who left the cesspool on those trying to keep it clean.

Blaming others and not taking responsibility are neither Christian not conservative virtues. And ungraciousness, definitionally, is unchristian.

Where, exactly, does that leave you?
 
631Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:42
Sure you were.
 
632Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:54
Says the voice in the bubble.

I was told this is an email specifically when discussing this forum with this person. I take comfort in two things:

-I'm telling the truth
-I don't depend upon you for my self worth, in any way.

Believe me, or not. I've no idea if disbelieving a truth when spoken to you is specifically a Christian virtue, but accusing someone of lying without proof certainly isn't.
 
633Tree
      ID: 496101919
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 20:14
There is no response I could give to that idiotic post that would pass the liberal censors.

because you don't have a response. you have an excuse. that's your MO.

but, i'll give you a second chance.

we're also at war with some Christianists. should we do the same for all Christians?
 
634Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 20:15
I am guessing that if anyone could have told you that, it was MyBoyJack, and truth be told we did have a pretty heated difference about his job which involves taking kids from their parents and handing them to the state.

That is not a fit job for a conservative, and no wonder he might not want to be reminded of that conflict.
 
635Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 20:18
Tree

You couldn't fill Jonathan Pollard's jail cell with all the self-styled 'christians' at war with America.
 
636sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 20:35
....his job which involves taking kids from their parents and handing them to the state.

That is not a fit job for a conservative, and no wonder he might not want to be reminded of that conflict.


You sanctimonious piece of sh*t. MBJ's job. involves so very much more than that. And in those cases where it does involve that it's because that is what needed doing. Just because a male ha the ability to impregnate a woman, or a female has the ability to carry to term and deliver; those two capacities do not a parent make.
 
637Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 20:51
You can aaaaalways find a liberal willing to do that. No need to help them break up the family.
 
638Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 21:04
I will never forget the TV reporting series on the Kentucky CPS. They had documented a case where someone had ridden around a poor neighborhood with the CPS shopping for the right child to steal. They sure enuff stripped that kid from her parent and handed her over to the kidnapper. Then when the good lawyer for the victim tried to step in, the CPS stole a kid from that lawyer's extended family in retribution.

Don't remember getting a rise out of MBJ tho.
 
639Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 21:06
For new Poliboarders, MBJ is a well loved original founding rotogurupie from Kentucky. Heck, I like him plenty. We just have a major difference on a really big area in his life.
 
640sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 21:24
So, your "recollection" of an undocumented case, vs the multiple documented cases we could put forth re child sexual abuse and a certain persons secretive religion.....
 
641Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 21:29
It was documented on a Kentucky TV news report expose that lasted over multiple days, it was so explosive.

Far different from disgruntled people who didn't have enuff evidence to make charges stick. If you can't prove it, whatyagonnado? Convict people without evidence?
 
642Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 21:41


 
643Tree
      ID: 146411920
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 21:44
You couldn't fill Jonathan Pollard's jail cell with all the self-styled 'christians' at war with America.

i realize that to you, Christianists are heroes. you praise their actions, and encourage many of them.

they're still criminals and murderers and dangerous.
 
644Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 22:00
And here is the exact part of the report:

The powers that be manage to shut this up from time to time so you may need to google up a fresh copy:

WLKY.com
Related To Story
LOUISVILLE NEWS: Target 32 Investigates: Child Protective Services Part 2

* Video: Target 32 Investigates: Child Protective Services Part 2
http://www.wlky.com/target32/14596226/detail.html#
She said the concerted effort to take children away and put them up for adoption was so brazen, she actually saw someone successfully place an order for children.

"Someone could not have a child and wanted a child so within the community," the social worker said. "This person saw a family in distress, having a hard time, relayed to workers that they would like those children, and that's exactly what has happened."

And a former CPS supervisor, who also wants anonymity for fear of retaliation, said if an order for a child was delayed or denied, her supervisors would overturn local decisions.

"This one family was promised a child, and when it happened that this child was going to be reunified with the parent, they called our regional office, and our regional office came in our county and they harassed the birth parents and that kind of thing because they didn't agree with our decision," the former supervisor said.

Vanessa Shanks had her kids taken away and, when she fought back, her relatives had their children taken away. Then, after she won in court, her attorney's child was taken away.

The former CPS workers said that kind of retaliatory power is common and, in the secretive, one-sided system, they can take anyone's kids away on a moment's notice - and get away with it.
 
645Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 22:02
Child abuse in a Tea Party thread. In homage of Jerry Sandusky.
 
646Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 22:03
BTW MBJ challenged me to put up or shut up. I showed him that video, and he disappeared.
 
648Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 23:16
I showed him that video, and he disappeared.

considering your history of believing false and doctored videos (we'll just call that "Being O'Keefed"), i'm not sure why anyone would believe any video you posted.
 
649Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 01:27
I'll let MBJ speak for himself if he wants, but really--victory laps seem a little six degrees from the Tea Party. Or maybe this is a full circle thing when how you feel about an issue is more important than the content of the position.
 
650Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 18:57
Judson Phillips, head of the Tea Party Nation, demands that Obama show that he doesn't take crack or have gay sex.

 
651Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 20:04
but really--victory laps seem...

I take no joy in MBJ leaving whatsoever.
 
652Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 00:00
He's a witch!
 
653sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 00:09
it's now official...the GOP has gone batsh*t nutz.
 
654Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 12:11
No. John McCain and John Boehner are Republicans, too.

Sure is bad timing for Mitt Romney. Think Bachman checked off that consideration in the pros or cons column when she was deciding whether to assemble the townspeople with their torches and pitchforks?
 
655sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 12:40
but watch MITH, watch the "rank and file". They'll eat this sh*t up like a nutrient filled meal.
 
656Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 14:06
Sure is bad timing for Mitt Romney. Think Bachman checked off that consideration in the pros or cons column when she was deciding whether to assemble the townspeople with their torches and pitchforks?

It's her job. She's on the Intelligence Committee. She doesn't sabotage American security because the establishment thinks it politic or good timing.
---
McCarthy prosecuted Omar Abdel Rahman [the blind sheik, who was the first guy to engineer the first blowing up of the World Trade Center, 1993.] and won the conviction. In the process, he boned up on Islam, became an expert on Islam and Sharia law. And he loves to tell the story how he started out believing that Rahman and his acolytes were fringe kook derivatives of Islam. And the more he studied it, the more he found that they were not kooks and they were not fringe; they were mainstream. That Omar Abdel Rahman and his acolytes who believe in Sharia law everywhere, anytime everywhere, are academics. They are trained and educated at the leading universities in Egypt on the subject.

Far from being kooks, they are the defining elites on the subject. He tried to find evidence in the Koran that these guys were making it up, that it wasn't really there. He found just the opposite. So Andy's become an expert in this. It's become one of his passions in terms of what he speaks of and writes about. Well, recently Michele Bachmann and other Republicans sent a letter to the State Department expressing concern -- and I'm really summarizing this part of it -- expressing concern over the presence of Huma Abedin, so close to the powers that be in our government. She's Hillary Clinton's whatever top-level aide, Huma Abedin, also married to Weiner.

Her name was Huma Weiner, really, married to Anthony Weiner, the disgraced sex-crazed congressman from New York. So her real name is Huma Weiner. But Huma's mother is best friends with the wife of the new Muslim Brotherhood president of Egypt, and there is essentially a Muslim sisterhood that she's a member of, and Huma's father was also likewise involved. So Michele Bachmann and others have written a letter to the State Department wanting some clarification and wanting an investigation because the Muslim Brotherhood is not what they are portrayed to be. The Muslim Brotherhood is not the -- what's the best way to put this? They're not the good Mafia. The Muslim Brotherhood's being portrayed as a bunch of secularist, mainstream, nonradical, and Andy says, no, they're not, they are right down the middle as radical as anybody else in jihad. So it's a legitimate request from Michele Bachmann.

Well, McCain took to the floor of the Senate last week to have at Bachmann and these other Republicans. So Andy has written a piece here chronicling 1995 to the present of how our government has changed in its view of the terrorists who seek to wipe us out. Here are the salient facts as he writes them in his piece. And, by the way, he's written a book about this, too. Willful Blindness. It's his memoir about the start of our confrontation with Islamic supremacism as a domestic threat. Back in the early nineties, when he led the prosecution of blind sheik's New York jihadist cell, they carried out the '93 World Trade Center bombing, and now he's got a column: "The Wages of Willful Blindness: Is It Time for Defenders of Liberty to Abandon the GOP?" His point here is that the GOP mainstream is no different than the Democrats on this, in terms of refusing to see the enemy as the enemy.
- Rush Limbaugh's summary
-------------------------------------------------
Andy McCarthy who, along with Patrick Fitzgerald prosecuted Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind sheik, PJ Media piece:
in the aforementioned 1995 trial, we proved that the reason the Blind Sheikh was able to run a terrorist organization — despite the fact that his physical infirmities rendered him incapable of performing any physical acts that would be useful to terrorists — was his globally renowned mastery of Islamic law. Omar Abdel Rahman is not a nut suffering from a psychological disorder. He has a doctorate in Islamic jurisprudence, earned by graduating with distinction from al-Azhar University in Cairo, the legendary seat of sharia scholarship since the Tenth Century. When he preached that Muslims were obligated to force non-sharia governments to adopt sharia, by terrorism if necessary, he drew these instructions directly from Islamic scripture, and his instructions had extraordinary persuasive force precisely because he was, undeniably, an internationally recognized authority on Islamic jurisprudence. The government would have you to believe Barack Obama or George Bush or Hillary Clinton or John McCain or Condi Rice or Janet Reno knows more about Islam and its sharia than Omar Abdel Rahman does. That is ludicrous.

We seemed to get that 20 years ago, but observe the measure of how far off-course we’ve drifted:

(a) In 1995, we demonstrated that (i) the Blind Sheikh was attempting to impose sharia, (ii) that he drew directly and accurately from Islamic scripture his instructions that Muslims must impose sharia, by violence if necessary, and (iii) his Muslim followers were animated by these instructions to push for the imposition of sharia standards, using terrorist attacks, among other methods. That was the crux our our case. For proving this in federal court, the Clinton Justice Department honored my colleagues and me with the attorney general’s highest award.

(b) Today, by contrast, for doing exactly the same thing
— namely, for arguing that an authoritative interpretation of Islam directs adherents to impose sharia, by violence if necessary, in order to lay the groundwork for changing a non-Islamic society into an Islamic society — I am routinely accused of promoting hatred and “Islamophobia.” Such accusations, applied to assertions of what used to be seen as fact, do not come only from the Obama Left (including its Clinton administration veterans — the State Department, run by Hillary Clinton, and the Justice Department run by Eric Holder, Clinton’s deputy attorney general). The smears are echoed, and in many cases led, by prominent members of the Republican establishment.

I haven’t changed. The threat against us hasn’t changed. The government has changed.

The Obama administration and the Republican establishment would have us live a lie — a lie that endangers our liberties and our security. The lie is this: There is a difference between mainstream Islamic ideology and what they call “violent extremism.”

The vogue term “violent extremism” is chosen very deliberately. To be sure, we’ve always bent over backwards to be politically correct. Until Obama came to power, we used to use terms like “violent jihadism” or “Islamic extremism” in order to make sure everyone knew that we were not condemning all of Islam, that we were distinguishing Muslim terrorists from other Muslims. (In a more sensible time, we did not say “German Nazis” — we said “Germans” or “Nazis” and put the burden on non-Nazi Germans, rather than on ourselves, to separate themselves from the aggressors.) But now, the Obama administration and the Republican establishment prefer to say “violent extremism” because this term has no hint of Islam.

According to the Obama Left and the Republican establishment (personified today by the likes of Sen. John McCain and many, but by no means all, former high-ranking officials from the Bush 43 administration), the only Muslims we need to be concerned about are terrorists, and there is nothing relevant in the fact that they happen to be Muslims. “Violent extremists” are not motivated by a coherent ideology, much less by scriptures from “one of the world’s great religions.” Instead, they are seized by a psychological disorder that inexplicably makes them prone to mass-murder attacks.

The fall-out from this line of thinking is that we must conclude mainstream Islam, everywhere on earth including the Middle East, has nothing to do with violence, and therefore, it is “moderate,” and even “admirable.” Sure, it may be advocating the adoption of something called “sharia,” but we needn’t worry about that. After all, we have Western scholars of Islamic studies (mostly working in university departments created by lavish donations from Saudi royals) who will tell you that sharia is amorphous and evolving — such that nobody really knows exactly what it is, anyway. Consequently, nothing to see here, move along. You are to accept as an article of faith that there is no reason to believe people steeped in mainstream Islam will resist real democracy or that they will remain hostile to the United States. And, yeah, sure they are opposed to Israel, but that is just a “political dispute” about “territory”; it has nothing to do with ideology or mainstream Islam per se.

This is why there is such an energetic effort on behalf of the Obama administration and leading Republican establishment figures to portray the Muslim Brotherhood as a “largely secular” organization that you should think of as a “pragmatic,” “moderate” “political party” (or a series of “political parties,” “think tanks” and “political action committees”). You are not to see it the way it sees itself, and the way it actually is: an ideological movement rooted in the mainstream, supremacist interpretation of Islam that is undeniably regnant in the Middle East.
---
That second tactic is this: the Obama Left and the Republican establishment would have you accept the following premise: anti-American Islamic supremacists are not an ideological threat but a mere political movement; therefore, American government officials who want to treat them as a mere political movement — to negotiate with them and accommodate them — are not endangering America; they are strengthening America. Consequently, if you dare suggest that this is a lunatic way of looking at things, you are a McCarthyite demagogue, not a patriot. According to the Obama Left, the Republican establishment and their complicit media, it is for them, not you, to define what “patriotism” means. Thus Huma Abedin becomes the “patriot” exactly because of her connections to Islamists; Michele Bachmann becomes the “demagogue” exactly because she dares suggest that Islamists are an ideological threat.

This is the crossroads at which we now find ourselves. On one side are national security conservatives, myself included, who reluctantly accept the stubborn fact that Islamic supremacist ideology is incorrigibly hostile to America and the West. We take the Muslim Brotherhood at its word that it is seeking to destroy the West and destroy Israel, and that it is doing so based on a divine injunction that is easily traceable to Islamic scripture. We understand that there are other ways of interpreting Islam, and we wish those other ways were predominant. But we believe American national security requires grasping that Islamic supremacism is the predominant Islam of the Middle East; it is the Islam of the Muslim Brotherhood throughout the world, very much including its organizations operating in our own country. We understand that Islamic supremacist ideology inspires not only violent jihad but also non-violent campaigns to supplant Western culture with Islamic culture — such as, for example, the campaign waged by the Organization of Islamic Cooperation and the Brotherhood to restrict free speech; their campaign to have sharia-compliant finance broadly accepted in the West; and their campaign to delegitimize Israel as a “racist occupier” while recasting Hamas, the Brotherhood, and even Hezbollah (a Shiite terrorist organization) as “political parties” and “resistance” movements.
---
If the Republican Party has decided to take its cues from establishment proponents of this reckless philosophy, if GOP leaders can no longer tell the difference between hostile anti-American operatives and benign political actors, then the Republican Party has become an obstacle to liberty and security, not a vehicle for their preservation. As is the case with crushing government debt and out-of-control government spending, it appears that the GOP is choosing to be part of the problem, rather than the solution, when it comes to the threat of Islamic supremacism. Certainly, that is a choice party leaders are entitled to make. But if it is the one they have made, why should conservatives concerned about liberty and security bother with the Republican Party?
To bring this story around full circle, all you need to know to grasp this story is that one of the first things Morsi, the new Muslim Brotherhood president of Egypt did upon winning was to demand the release of 'The Blind Sheik' Omar Abdel Rahman who attacked the Twin Towers.



WTC bombing part 1, 1993

Heck, why did we even bother assigning Andy McCarthy to prosecute 'The Blind Sheik' Omar Abdel Rahman?

To listen to the establishment perhaps we should have handed out another undeserved peace prize, this time to 'The Blind Sheik'.

 
657Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 14:34
If you look closely, you can see Huma's face in that cover shot...
 
658Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 14:38
True dat, it has Muslim Brotherhood written all over it.
 
659sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 14:40
Few positions are more oppressive, than those of the extremist religious fanatics. The particular religion, is not of consequence when looking at how dictatorial one can be. You B, are every bit the terrorist extremist, that the folks who flew those planes into the WTC were. Just as fanatical, just as oppressive, just as blind to reality.
 
660Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 15:04
Quake in fear all night dressed in yer lil jammies, worried about the existential threat I pose, do you?

Sure.





 
661Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 15:09
The Muslim Brotherhood can't even penetrate the Egyptian government. Meanwhile, Bachmann and others are taking to task an otherwise patriotic American for the simple reason that she is Muslim.

Responding with "really--there is a threat!" simply doesn't answer the question of whether Bachmann and others are out-of-line to accuse this specific lady of treason and being a terrorist.
 
662DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 15:13
"Quake in fear all night dressed in yer lil jammies, worried about the existential threat I pose, do you?

Sure."

Why have anything to fear from the next Breivik or Rudolph? Is this a serious question?
 
663Tree
      ID: 536112514
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 15:17
Quake in fear all night dressed in yer lil jammies, worried about the existential threat I pose, do you?



people like you, for sure. maybe not you exactly, but people like you, people who believe like you, people who would imprison, murder, torture, and deport those who don't share their narrow view of how the world should be.

people like you are as big a threat to the United States as a bomber poised to destroy a building and kill innocents. people like you want to destroy the soul of this country, want to remove what has made it so great, and want to remake it in your own image.

hate is not part of the blueprints. it may exist within this country, but when we start to remake it in the name of hate and fear, then our enemies have won.
 
664sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 17:07
 
665Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 19:56
Responding with "really--there is a threat!" simply doesn't answer the question of whether Bachmann and others are out-of-line to accuse this specific lady of treason and being a terrorist.

Bachmann did no such thing. Bachmann and Gohmerts want to know how she holds a high level security clearance. ”For us to raise issues about a highly-based U.S. Government official with known immediate family connections to foreign extremist organizations is not a question of singling out Ms. Abedin. In fact, these questions are raised by the U.S. Government of anyone seeking a security clearance.”

Knowing Hilary is not an excuse to blow off security checks and standard security automatic disqualifications.
 
666sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 20:03
What evidence do you have, that security checks were "blown off"? Or is the fact that a Muslim apparently PASSED such checks, evidence that the checks were blown off?

Bachmann is a dangerous twit, and you are no better for echoing her McCarthyistic rantings.
 
667Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 20:46
She has a high security clearance that she passed and has no threat except for Gohmerts who believes her to be a threat because she is Muslim.

Apparently you now believe the same. What a surprise.
 
668Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 20:48
Considering that Huma Weiner's family is at the epicenter of the Muslim Brotherhood for the last three generations, and that her mother is best friends with the muslim Brotherhood President and his wife as they demand that the USA release and return 'The Blind Sheik'...there is no way in the world any reasonable security check suggests she be also at the epicenter of American defense against the Muslim Brotherhood.
 
669sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:02
BS..pure, unadulterated...BS


her dead father, founded a group, who had the support of a fella who headed a group, which sometimes found itself in agreement with the MB.

THAT, is the tie between her and MB.

Thin? Not even thick enough to be called 'thin'.
 
670Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:07
Yeah, her dead father, if you squint your eyes and abandon normal rules of evidence...

from Salon:

As evidence, she pointed to Abedin’s late father, Professor Syed Z. Abedin, and a 2002 Brigham Young University Law Review article about his work. Bachmann points to a passage saying Abedin founded an organization that received the “quiet but active support” of the the former director of the Muslim World League, an international NGO that was tied to the Muslim Brotherhood in Europe in the 1970s through 1990s. So, to connect Abedin to the Muslim Brotherhood, you have to go through her dead father, to the organization he founded, to a man who allegedly supported it, to the organization that man used to lead, to Europe in the 1970s and 1990s, and finally to the Brotherhood.

You really have no evidence, and have resorted in a guilt-by-association to create what isn't there, calling a patriotic American a terrorist. Probably because of some pathological need to be the hero making a clarion call to action against the enemy.
 
671Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:41
Really, your strategy is to ignore the evidence I present and make me find and repost it over and over and over.

Just read the evidence for yourself.

 
672Tree
      ID: 486502520
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:54
nothing like you quoting someone known for fabricating evidence...again...

he lies about his own autobiography...

nice source.
 
673sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:55
Shoebat claimed that he threw a bomb at Bank Leumi, an Israeli bank, in Bethlehem.[4] However, the bank has no record of the incident. Also, Israeli newspapers at that time did not report any such incident.[5] The authenticity of Shoebat's account has been disputed by many sources.
The Jerusalem Post also disputed the authenticity of Shoebat's account of his alleged terrorist history. The paper stated that the bombing claim made by Shoebat has been rejected both by Bank Leumi, which claims no such attack took place, and by Shoebat's own relatives. The Post said that Shoebat had contradicted himself on this matter. When, in 2008, the Jerusalem Post asked him if there were news reports about the bombing, he replied,[4]
I don't know. I didn't read the papers because I was in hiding for the next three days.
But, in 2004, he had told Britain's Sunday Telegraph,
I was terribly relieved when I heard on the news later that evening that no one had been hurt or killed by my bomb.


wiki

So, a self proclaimed "terrorist" (with no ability to authenticate that anything he claims he did, was ever actually done); is "saved" and finds a whole new career denouncing what he claims he was (but can not prove he was), and THAT is your proof?

 
674Mith
      ID: 376222518
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 22:55
See posts 352 - 357 here for more on Shoebat.
 
675Mith
      ID: 376222518
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 22:59
When even Debbie Schlussel calls him a "fake terrorist"...
 
676sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 23:02
does 359 from that same thread, not sound a lot like Tom Cruise in his rant with Matt Lauer re psychology.
 
677Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 02:01
Notice no one is interested in providing better translations. You guys are conceding his points right there. And it is poor form to insist we vet Shoebat but not the woman who actually has the security clearance and the extensive three generation family history promoting the Muslim Brotherhood agenda.
 
678Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 02:10
We don't need to provide "better translations" from Shoebat, whose lies are pervasive and constant.

Typically, the party making the crazy claims have to provide the proof.
 
679Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 02:12
No. it's the party providing the 37 page fully documented highly specific and verifiable charges which carries the most weight especially when his detractors aren't specifically denying any claim he makes.
 
680Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 02:27
Typically, a Member of Congress who believes there to be a crime would contact Homeland Security or the FBI. They wouldn't go on conservative talk shows. This doesn't seem too important a point to you, however.

Shoebat, a known liar and truth-twister, offers no new information at all--only the same tired arguments already hashed above, only more forcefully, with more unconnected name dropping.

Bachmann put out a 16 page document sent to Rep Ellison, on which Huma Abedin is discussed for about a single page, in total, with no more information than has already been presented here.

Here's the letter.

There is literally no evidence directing that Huma Abedin is a terrorist or a member of Muslim Brotherhood. None. You can play with your chalkboard all you want but you don't really have anything except tenuous six degrees familial ties.
 
681Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 02:28
But thanks for the round-about admission that it would be crazy to let someone with the Curriculum vitae Shoebat documents in the Abedin family anywhere near getting a peek at our secret security posture.

That's as close as I will ever get to common sense from you.
 
682Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 03:42
And it is poor form to insist we vet Shoebat but not the woman who actually has the security clearance

Shoebat has already been shown to be a liar. your latest "source" is easily exposed. as for Abedin, there's no question she's been vetted. no amount of vetting would satisfy a fool who believes that the President of the United States was not born in this country.

That's as close as I will ever get to common sense from you.

says the guy who parades around liar after liar, criminal after criminal, as examples of those who he believes in and follows.

you can kick and scream and throw a tantrum all you want, but it doesn't change the facts about Shoebat.

you are what you believe, and in this case, it's just another liar.
 
683Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 10:24
So I guess being the board regular given to repeating 'The Big Lie' over and over till it gains illegitimate credibility makes you 'The Big Liar'.

Very civil of you.

 
684biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 12:51
That's pretty much the only tool in the tea party playbook as far as I can tell.

Given that you post more that the next 5 regulars combined, your glass house is a'tremblin'.
 
685Tree
      ID: 35692612
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 13:16
So I guess being the board regular given to repeating 'The Big Lie' over and over till it gains illegitimate credibility makes you 'The Big Liar'.


your sources and heroes are, with some consistency, liars and criminals. those are indesputable facts. it's not one source, it's not one hero, but it's a parade of them.

they don't have a lot of credibility, you don't have a lot of credibility. it is interesting that you reference the "Big Lie", and provide a link.

not much difference between Hitler's psychological profile in that link, and that of another regular poster on these boards:

His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

 
686Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 18:27
And so when I'm not willing to tear apart a family and never speak to them again based on unsubstantiated charges you repeat over and over and over, that my religion has some connection to pedophilia.

And so tho there are millions of wrongfully imprisoned people in the world, the fact that I believe some of them innocent makes you feel free to repeat over and over and over that I support criminals.

You don't care how many times the liberal media violates national security and releases information that ends up getting American assets killed, or Wikileaks, or the current scandal where even Feinstein is livid over self-serving administration leaks which kill assets, you look at Linda Trip and O'Keefe and repeat over and over and over that I support criminal release of information.

There really isn't a shred of civility on this board when that is allowed.

And the censors that don't censor that crap, wouldn't want me to launch into a 12 page defense every drop of a hat that Tree makes those loose charges either.
 
687sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 19:05
O'Keefe has been caught, and admitted to, editing his video/audio to make them show things differently than they happened. Still, you hold him up as the persona of journalistic integrity.

More than a few senior persons in your religion HAVE abused children. Then try to cover it up.

These are not opinions B, they are known facts. Facts, which are not in dispute by much anyone other than yourself.
 
688Tree
      ID: 266262618
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 19:35
And so when I'm not willing to tear apart a family

you've expressed in other threads your willingless to tear apart families, so i suppose this is another lie.

you look at Linda Trip and O'Keefe

congrats on the first Linda Tripp referance on these boards (or probably anywhere else) in a decade.

James O'Keefe acknowledged to doctoring his footage, and investigations by both legal authorities and journalists have found O'Keefe has "selectively", "heavily" or "deceptively" edited secretly recorded videos to leave a false impression and present the subjects in the worst possible light (numerous sources)

this is a fact. that you believe someone like this to be heroic is on you, and no one else. your heroes are crooks and liars.
 
689DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 20:39
"There really isn't a shred of civility on this board when that is allowed.

Stop calling everyone (on this board, and otherwise) an America-hating Marxist who wants to destroy the country, and we can talk. Until then, your pathetic whining about this rings very hollow.
 
690Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 05:17
The practitioners of 'The Big Lie' all line up and take a bow.
 
691biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 08:49
Your chin is scraping the cement. Let me get you a bandage and a back-brace Baldy.
 
692DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 09:53
"The practitioners of 'The Big Lie' all line up and take a bow."

Of course you are. You always do. Even when the audience is walking out in disgust.
 
693Tree
      ID: 40619279
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 10:28
The practitioners of 'The Big Lie' all line up and take a bow.

you really need to be extra careful when comparing Jews to Nazi propaganda.

then again your bigotry toward a myriad of religions other than your own, skin tones other than your own, sexual orientations and genders other than your own, is nothing you've really ever tried to hide.
 
694Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 10:40
Dick Armey bails out on Freedomworks
The tone of the memo suggests that this was not an amicable separation. (See Armey's email below.) Armey demanded that he be paid until his contract ended on December 31; that FreedomWorks remove his name, image, or signature "from all its letters, print media, postings, web sites, videos, testimonials, endorsements, fund raising materials, and social media, including but not limited to Facebook and Twitter"; and that FreedomWorks deliver the copy of his official congressional portrait to his home in Texas.

"The top management team of FreedomWorks was taking a direction I thought was unproductive, and I thought it was time to move on with my life," Armey tells Mother Jones. "At this point, I don't want to get into the details. I just want to go on with my life."

In the email, Armey indicated that he wants nothing to do with FreedomWorks anymore. He asked that all user names, passwords, and security-related data created in his name be emailed to him by the close of business on December 4. He even insisted that FreedomWorks—"effective immediately"—was "prohibited" from using a booklet he authored. Was Armey's resignation a reaction to the recent election results? "Obviously I was not happy with the election results," he says. "We might've gotten better results if we had gone in a different direction. But it isn't that I got my nose out of line because we should've done better."

Armey declined to specify his disagreements with FreedomWorks. Asked if they were ideological or tactical, he replies, "They were matters of principle. It's how you do business as opposed to what you do. But I don't want to be the guy to create problems."
 
695Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 11:13
PD linked the same item last night in the Gloves Come Off thread.
 
696Boldwin
      ID: 151140716
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 19:56
"Only in Washington, DC, is a person taken off of the Budget Committee for wanting to balance the budget." - John Errante
 
697sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 19:58
National GOP rhetoric re spending, is smoke and mirrors to distract you from their real agenda Screwing the working class in favor of the plutocracy.
 
698Boldwin
      ID: 151140716
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 20:28
I was unaware that the public sector were plutocrats, but now that you mention it, I see your point.
 
699sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 21:11
who do you think, is the "plutocracy"? (Hint: Koch brothers...yep. Addleson...yep)
 
700Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Mon, Jan 28, 2013, 12:33
Dem groups to fund Tea Party challenger to Mitch McConnell in 2014
 
701Tree
      ID: 56456615
      Mon, May 06, 2013, 19:27
as the Tea Party continues to slide to irrelevancy.

Tom Zawistowski, executive director of the Portage County Tea Party who lost his bid for the Ohio GOP chairmanship by a 48-7 vote of the party’s state central committee, met on Saturday with Don Shrader, chairman of the Constitution Party of Ohio, to explore uniting in a party committed more to principles than winning elections.

Ohio is not Kentucky. Rob Portman won't win elections by being a Rand Paul, or Ted Cruz, or Mike Lee, and John Kasich certainly won't be reelected by imitating Rick Scott.

If the Tea Partiers of Ohio really want to make Ohio a more conservative place, they should remember those realities. But, if as I suspect, they're more interested in self-aggrandizing and feel-goodery, by all means, I hope they form their own party.
 
702Boldwin
      ID: 1849259
      Sat, May 25, 2013, 11:02
The health of the Tea Party can be measured by the strength of the Republican Study Committee.

Alt title: 'Libs, know your enemy'.
Ed Feulner was a congressional aide to Republican Rep. Phil Crane of Illinois. One day in 1972, Feulner says, his boss was meeting with several fellow House conservatives, including Ed Derwinski of Illinois, John Rousselot of California, and Ben Blackburn of Georgia. The discussion turned to a club of liberal House members who convened weekly and called themselves the Democratic Study Group. “Look at what they’ve done in terms of making sure the Democrats in control of the House are always under pressure from the left,” one member said. “Why can’t we do this on the right?”
---
---
He knew Republicans could not effectively battle Obama until they called an internal cease-fire. So when he met with the founders last November to ask them to nominate him for the chairmanship, Scalise posed a simple question. “As conservatives,” he asked, “how do we define victory?”

His message was straightforward: The RSC should focus less on preaching conservative values and more on passing conservative policy; it should emphasize actions over words. He ran for the chairmanship of the group against Rep. Tom Graves of Georgia (the founders’ choice) as the fiscal cliff, the debt ceiling, the sequester, and the continuing resolution all loomed, and he won by promising RSC members that he would work to secure a series of “victories,” giving House Republicans momentum and putting Senate Democrats and the White House on the defensive.

At the annual retreat in Williamsburg, after conservative leaders had come to terms with Boehner, Scalise lobbied skeptical RSC members to join the ideological armistice. In exchange for approving a temporary extension of the debt limit in January, Boehner’s leadership team would support a series of conservative policy solutions to the upcoming list of legislative challenges. Many RSC members doubted the durability of this agreement—since dubbed “the Williamsburg Accord”—but were persuaded to give Boehner one final chance to earn the trust of the conservative rank and file.

Four months later, both Boehner and Scalise have delivered. Consistent with the Kingsmill Resort compromise, the sequester cuts went into effect; the continuing resolution was passed with lower spending levels; and the House’s proposed budget would balance in 10 years. Meanwhile, thanks to the RSC-favored “No Budget, No Pay” provision attached to the debt-ceiling deal, Senate Democrats were forced to come up with their first budget in four years. “We’re not a think tank,” Scalise says. “We’re a group of 171 legislators who all came here to fight to pass conservative policy into law.”

The Republican Study Committee has, throughout its history, been ideologically pure yet often impotent to achieve legislative results. In the minority, it lacked power or numbers to drive the agenda; in the majority, it focused on infighting over policy. Now, for the first time in its 40-year history, the stars have aligned. Not only is the RSC still emphasizing ideology over partisanship—and passing conservative policy in the process—but it is also pulling the entire conference rightward. “We’re hitting our stride,” says Teller, who’s worked for the group since 2001.
 
703Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 19:45
Will the Tea Party die when Obama leaves office?

I say "no." Hatred is a habit-forming drug, and these guys are completely hooked.
 
704sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 00:05
I can only agree PD, with both your conclusion, and reason behind it.
 
705Boldwin
      ID: 465452112
      Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 00:53
Hatred is a habit-forming drug...says the guy who can't even imagine his opponents as anything other than seething drooling subhuman monsters. No chance they think their well intentioned ideas work out best for everyone involved, and have the well thot out evidence to back it up..
 
706biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 10:53
In Freudian psychology, externalization is an unconscious defense mechanism, where an individual "projects" his own internal characteristics onto the outside world, particularly onto other people.[1] For example, a patient who is overly argumentative might instead perceive others as argumentative and himself as blameless.

Like other defense mechanisms, externalization is a protection against anxiety and is, therefore, part of a normal, healthily-functioning mind. However, if taken to excess it can lead to the development of a neurosis.

externalization.
 
707Boldwin
      ID: 135162210
      Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 11:18
I know. You racists project all the time.
 
708Tree
      ID: 355162211
      Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 12:16
707 is beautiful.
 
709Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 12:52
Deserves a meme on FB.
 
710sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 16:53
...and have the well thot out fabricated evidence to back it up..

fixed that for you, but left the spelling as it was.
 
711Boldwin
      ID: 195432220
      Sun, Jun 23, 2013, 00:09
Anymore of the self-awareness challenged care to take a whack before I continue?
 
712Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sun, Jun 23, 2013, 00:35
He's like a reverse Roomba.
 
713biliruben
      ID: 226202916
      Mon, Jul 29, 2013, 17:20
Ask Ayn.

A taste:

Then the inside of my head began to sound like a jet engine and so I went to the bathroom. I took maybe ten more speed pills and sat in a stall and wrote a new chapter of “Atlas Shrugged.” Perhaps twenty-five thousand words, all on toilet paper. I cannot include these words in a new edition, alas, because I did not write them so much as encode them on the toilet paper by biting it.

I giggle.
 
714Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Mon, Jul 29, 2013, 17:32
What are they, made of Rearden Metal?
 
715Seattle Zen
      ID: 3310162612
      Mon, Jul 29, 2013, 17:50
I think this very well may be another example of the New Yorker's subtle satire that is so funny that we all wish it were true.
 
716Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Mon, Jul 29, 2013, 18:35
+1 Zen.

Hodgman as Rand
 
717biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Tue, Jul 30, 2013, 01:55
As I write this, I am drinking speed, and you cannot stop me. You cannot stop me, America, with your altruism and your Alan Alda and your Fresca cans biting at my skin. I shall speed across this country like a great high-speed train and the U.S. shall be forever changed in my wake.

Subtle, yes.
 
718Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Tue, Jul 30, 2013, 14:27
Beck's utopia town gets a schmear of a pushback from Jon Stewart.
 
719biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 03:56
Dibs on the colonial across from the food Co-op.

He's lost his mind.
 
720sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 10:40
Rand Paul...exposed fro what he is

With his creation of a ludicrous home-brew “certifying board,” he has shown his dedication not to a movement but to the single goal of making life a little bit more convenient for Rand Paul. And here Paul does appear to speak for his generation: He has given us the finest example yet of yuppie selfishness in senescence.
 
721Boldwin
      ID: 50546712
      Sat, Jun 07, 2014, 13:48
What a difference two years can make.

In two years, the Whig party which had been compromising it's anti-slavery positions away regularly to the Democrats, went from the 'other main party' to total irrelevance. Suddenly people wouldn't even admit they had ever been Whigs.

The establishment Republicans are thiiiis close to one compromise too far for their base and they can feel it, despite the regular handshakes that they have managed to defeat their own base one more election.

In related news the conservative Tories in England which have long comprised away the interests of their base, especially on the issue of rampant excessive immigration and EU big government tyranny unresponsive to the people...

...have been relegated to a third party, has been party, while their rapidly fleeing base who they have been calling racist nutters for quite a while, recently won the recent elections as the UKIP party, both British and EU.
 
722Boldwin
      ID: 4253916
      Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 20:33
Eric Cantor loses primary to Tea Party candidate!

...after touring the country with illegal immigration promoter Illinois' Guitierez.

To further illegal immigration Cantor had Guitierez protest him, hoping to buffalo his anti-illegal immigration base.

RINO's and the Chamber of Commerce now go into mourning.

 
723Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 21:23
I have to believe the warning message sent to other republicans will have a bigger effect than the damage a lame duck nothing-to-lose House Majority leader can pull off. Lotta corporate pressure for this tho.
 
724Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 21:39
That just goes to show you that a $5.44 million campaign war chest, incumbency, holding tremendous power in the House and the Chamber of Commerce in your back pocket doesn't necessarily trump $207,000 and the best interests of your base.
 
725Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 21:41
OMG, in a blowout!!! IN A BLOWOUT!!! Brat 55.6%, Cantor 44.4%
 
726biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 23:22


The face of true American leadership.

What can we expect from the professor?
 
727Perm Dude
      ID: 294531914
      Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 23:23
Nice. As the ability of the GOP to enforce party loyalty falls away, so to goes their ability to win general elections.

If there is one thing that everyone on this board agrees upon, it is cheering on Tea Party victories in the GOP primaries.
 
728Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 23:24
Someone who isn't such a backstabbing sellout.
 
729biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 23:26
Sounds like this is a deeply Red district.

So it went from a sure seat to a probable seat. I'll take the better odds.

And the ineffectual professor tilting at windmills and not much more, if he's elected.
 
730Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 23:36
He will not only pour cold water on the 'let's sneak amnesty thru while they aren't looking' movement...he will also push hard to rein in the NSA abuses in domestic spying. An issue Cantor was terrible on.
 
732Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 00:34
Frankly this should be cheered by all sides. This is a victory for politicians who stick to their philosophy and a defeat to cynical weathervane fence riders tip-toing away in the night from all their supporters sooner or later.
 
733biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 00:55
An ineffectual potted plant (if he's like the other tea sippers) replaces an actual leader who makes a stab at actually, you know, doing the job of governing. Even if it's not the governing I'd prefer, I like that better than the party of do-nothings.

But okay.

Yay! Wahoo! Hurrah!
 
735Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 01:52
Tweet:
Mickey Kaus ‏@kausmickey 1h

Framing this one MT @David_Gergen: With [Eric] Cantor upset, House loses one of its best Republican thinkers & reformers. Sad loss for party
Hilarious!
 
736Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 01:59
Flashback:
Republican Cantor to Headline Anti-Tea Party Conference Sponsored by George Soros & Unions
 
737Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 02:29
Imagine how bad Cantor's drubbing would have been without the illegal immigrant vote!
 
738Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 04:37
The Capitol Building looks like a christmas tree tonight.
 
739Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 05:43
Celebrate.
 
740Boldwin
      ID: 445221020
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 10:27
Boner, you are so next.
 
741biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 10:51
The destruction is all you apparently care about. Jacobins.
 
742Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 11:10
Yes, Bili, as everyone knows, controlling the House alone accomplishes nothing. Might as well use this time to "purify" the party.
 
744Tree
      ID: 438482411
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 18:57
post 740 was pretty what i was thinking after the masturbatory, self-congratulatory succession of posts from 725 on...
 
745Tree
      ID: 438482411
      Thu, Jun 12, 2014, 08:23
and this is why the Tea Party is good for Democrats:

David Brat: Hitler Could 'Happen Again' If We Don't Embrace Christian Capitalism

they can appeal to the rabid, kooky, "base". but they can't appeal to the slightly less kooky mainstream.
 
746sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Thu, Jun 12, 2014, 09:54
an economics professor, who when asked about the minimum wage, responded that he had no formulated opinion on the matter.

One of THE central issue of the day, certainly an issue within the realm of his educational profession and specialty, yet he has no formulated position upon the topic.

He is either (a) a bald faced liar, (b) a gutless coward, (c) an absolute moron or (d) some combination of those first three.
 
747Perm Dude
      ID: 294531914
      Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 11:38
What the Tea Party, and their cheerleaders, won't be talking about today.
 
748Boldwin
      ID: 45539258
      Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 11:47
It's funny how the dems came out and helped take down Cantor, [as it turned out they weren't needed] and yet they helped another establishment RINO and they may very well have tipped the scales.
 
749Boldwin
      ID: 245102511
      Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 12:16
Was it Tip O'Neill who used to say..."All politics is local"?

One of these guys forgot all about it in his self-importance and ambition and his 'big picture' while the other one was a master at eating corn-pone with the local yokels.
 
750Perm Dude
      ID: 586411123
      Wed, Jul 23, 2014, 15:20
Tea Party News Site is Pretty Sure You'll be Thrown Into a FEMA Camp.
 
751biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Wed, Jul 23, 2014, 15:41
Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.

Fear.

Beyond fear, the teabaggers have no lucid thoughts.
 
752Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Fri, Jun 19, 2015, 17:27
Rand Paul has a fake quote problem

Most conservative scholarship is less about truth than it is about feeling good about what you already believe, by shoring up those feelings with fake attributions to the Founding Fathers. And referencing other such books in the conservative media bubble.

I love how so many attributions are prefaced by "in their wisdom..." Ha!