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| Posted by: Mith
- [482583111] Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 09:10
The spill isn't going away anytime soon so I think a new thread is in order.
A few recent headlines: Health officials order air quality testing after fuel smell blankets metro area The state departments of Health and Hospitals and Environmental Quality said the strong odor blanketing much of coastal Louisiana and the metro New Orleans area is "possibly" the result of the massive oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. The U.S. Interior Department’s Minerals Management Service has postponed next week’s annual luncheon in Houston, which was to extol the safety record of offshore oil drilling.
Jindal is leaning into the Feds to step it up. |
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| | | 2 | Biliruben movin
ID: 358252515 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 10:05
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Any suggestions from the wingnutery that Ecoterrorists are behind it?
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| | | 3 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 10:06
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They should have been.
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| | | 4 | Mith
ID: 482583111 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 10:25
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I'm not so sure terrorism can be ruled out for now. Has the cause of the explosion been confirmed?
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| | | 5 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 10:35
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I don't think so, there are some theories but confirmed cause. I am guessing most of the evidence is under several 1000 feet of water.
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| | | 6 | Boldwin
ID: 183112613 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 11:23
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There has been nothing to suggest anything sinister and there are plenty of witnesses.
The only interesting detail to come out is that they were missing a cutoff valve that some platforms have that could have been useful. I expect the ecofreaks will blow that up into a crime against humanity that necessitates suing part of the industrialized world back to pre-industrial times.
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| | | 7 | Biliruben movin
ID: 358252515 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 11:41
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Dangit. Rush be me to it.
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| | | 10 | Boldwin
ID: 183112613 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 14:31
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Only a matter of time until Obama tells us we should have had a civilian force of conscripts the size of the army to handle this.
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| | | 11 | Boldwin
ID: 183112613 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 14:33
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Or maybe this is satan's way of celebrating earth day.
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| | | 12 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 16:11
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Only a matter of time until Obama tells us we should have had a civilian force of conscripts the size of the army to handle this.
or someone makes an idiotic statement about something nonsensical that Obama might do.
oh, wait. never mind.
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| | | 13 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 16:31
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Anyone who said drillbabydrill better be getting their hip waders on and down to the gulf coast for some clean up of this devestating catostrophe.
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| | | 14 | Boldwin
ID: 183112613 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 16:38
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Or why not just anyone who has ever driven a car?'
Accidents happen and they can happen no matter the source. Get in your time machine and bring back some future efficient batteries and solar cells or just shut up and deal with it.
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| | | 15 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 16:41
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It's an industrial accident (unless proven otherwise). Accidents WILL happen.
The three questions, in my mind, are:
1. Was everything reasonable done to prevent the accident in the first place?
2. Is everything that should be/should have bene done to revent the problem from getting worse? (The word "reasonable" intentionally omitted)
3. Is everything possible being done to mitigate the damage being done?
It's possible that they took every precaution required, and then some, and this happened anyway. It's possible that they were trying to cut corners and screwed up. I think it's safe to say that nobody knows for sure right now.
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| | | 17 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 18:20
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WSJAn oil-drilling procedure called cementing is coming under scrutiny as a possible cause of the explosion on the Deepwater Horizon rig in the Gulf of Mexico that has led to one of the biggest oil spills in U.S. history, drilling experts said Thursday.
The process is supposed to prevent oil and natural gas from escaping by filling gaps between the outside of the well pipe and the inside of the hole bored into the ocean floor. Cement, pumped down the well from the drilling rig, is also used to plug wells after they have been abandoned or when drilling has finished but production hasn't begun.
Regulators have previously identified problems in the cementing process as a leading cause of well blowouts, in which oil and natural gas surge out of a well with explosive force. When cement develops cracks or doesn't set properly, oil and gas can escape, ultimately flowing out of control. The gas is highly combustible and prone to ignite, as it appears to have done aboard the Deepwater Horizon, which was leased by BP PLC, the British oil giant.
The scrutiny on cementing will focus attention on Halliburton Co., the oilfield-services firm that was handling the cementing process on the rig, which burned and sank last week. The disaster, which killed 11, has left a gusher of oil streaming into the Gulf from a mile under the surface.
Federal officials declined to comment on their investigation, and Halliburton didn't respond to questions from The Wall Street Journal.
According to Transocean Ltd., the operator of the drilling rig, Halliburton had finished cementing the 18,000-foot well shortly before the explosion. Houston-based Halliburton is the largest company in the global cementing business, which accounted for $1.7 billion, or about 11%, of the company's revenue in 2009, according to consultant Spears & Associates.
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| | | 18 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 18:36
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Haliburton! I knew it!
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| | | 20 | Boldwin
ID: 183112613 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 19:22
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Also mute, both bedcause Obama did not approve any new production in those areas of exploration and because he knew good and well going into exploration that every last proposed production would be tied up in lawsuits from environmentalists forever.
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| | | 21 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 19:40
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I'm wondering why MITH bothered providing an insightful article from WSJ about possible causes of this tragedy, when we already had the heads up from Rush Limbaugh in #8:
"The carbon tax bill, cap and trade, that was scheduled to be announced on Earth Day," Limbaugh said, arguing that "hardcore environmentalist wackos" were opposed to its allowances for more nuclear power and more offshore drilling.
"What better way to head off more oil drilling, nuclear plants, than by blowing up a rig?"
Talk about your Alinsky tactics.
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| | | 22 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, May 01, 2010, 10:45
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Whistleblower: BP guilty of skirting safety and engineering documentation protocols with another - much larger - offshore platform in the Gulf of Mexico. The whistleblower, whose name has been withheld at the person's request because the whistleblower still works in the oil industry and fears retaliation, first raised concerns about safety issues related to BP Atlantis, the world's largest and deepest semi-submersible oil and natural gas platform, located about 200 miles south of New Orleans, in November 2008. Atlantis, which began production in October 2007, has the capacity to produce about 8.4 million gallons of oil and 180 million cubic feet of natural gas per day. It was then that the whistleblower, who was hired to oversee the company's databases that housed documents related to its Atlantis project, discovered that the drilling platform had been operating without a majority of the engineer-approved documents it needed to run safely, leaving the platform vulnerable to a catastrophic disaster that would far surpass the massive oil spill that began last week following a deadly explosion on a BP-operated drilling rig. BP's own internal communications show that company officials were made aware of the issue and feared that the document shortfalls related to Atlantis "could lead to catastrophic operator error" and must be addressed. Indeed, according to an August 15, 2008, email sent to BP officials by Barry Duff, a member of BP's Deepwater Gulf of Mexico Atlantis Subsea Team, the Piping and Instrument Diagrams (P&IDs) for the Atlantis subsea components "are not complete." P&IDs documents form the foundation of a hazards analysis BP is required to undertake as part of its Safety and Environmental Management Program related to its offshore drilling operations. P&IDs drawings provide the schematic details of the project's piping and process flows, valves and safety critical instrumentation. "The risk in turning over drawings that are not complete are: 1) The Operator will assume the drawings are accurate and up to date," the email said. "This could lead to catastrophic Operator errors due to their assuming the drawing is correct," said Duff's email to BP officials Bill Naseman and William Broman. "Turning over incomplete drawings to the Operator for their use is a fundamental violation of basic Document control, [internal standards] and Process Safety Regulations."
Last May, Mike Sawyer, a Texas-based engineer who works for Apex Safety Consultants, voluntarily agreed to evaluate BP's Atlantis subsea document database and the whistleblower's allegations regarding BP's engineering document shortfall related to Atlantis. Sawyer concluded that of the 2,108 P&IDs BP maintained that dealt specifically with the subsea components of its Atlantis production project, 85 percent did not receive engineer approval. Even worse, 95 percent of Atlantis' subsea welding records did not receive final approval, calling into question the integrity of thousands of crucial welds on subsea components that, if they were to rupture, could result in an oil spill 30 times worse than the one that occurred after the explosion on Deepwater Horizon last week. In a report Sawyer prepared after his review, he said BP's "widespread pattern of unapproved design, testing and inspection documentation on the Atlantis subsea project creates a risk of a catastrophic incident threatening the [Gulf of Mexico] deep-water environment and the safety of platform workers." Moreover, "the extent of documentation discrepancies creates a substantial risk that a catastrophic event could occur at any time." "The absence of a complete set of final, up-to-date, 'as built' engineering documents, including appropriate engineering approval, introduces substantial risk of large scale damage to the deep water [Gulf of Mexico] environment and harm to workers, primarily because analyses and inspections based on unverified design documents cannot accurately assess risk or suitability for service," Sawyer's report said. He added, "there is no valid engineering justification for these violations and short cuts." Sawyer explained that the documents in question - welding records, inspections and safety shutdown logic materials - are "extremely critical to the safe operation of the platform and its subsea components." He said the safety shutdown logic drawings on Atlantis, a complex computerized system that, during emergencies, is supposed to send a signal to automatically shut down the flow of oil, were listed as "requiring update."
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| | | 23 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sat, May 01, 2010, 11:14
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Well, I guess that's my question #1 answered.
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| | | 24 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, May 01, 2010, 11:34
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#23 DWetz - that whistleblower story refers to the Atlantis, another (much larger) rig in the gulf, not the Deepwater Horizon.
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| | | 25 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, May 01, 2010, 13:55
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U.S. regulators don't mandate use of the remote-control device on offshore rigs, and the Deepwater Horizon, hired by oil giant BP PLC, didn't have one. With the remote control, a crew can attempt to trigger an underwater valve that shuts down the well even if the oil rig itself is damaged or evacuated.
The efficacy of the devices is unclear. Major offshore oil-well blowouts are rare, and it remained unclear Wednesday evening whether acoustic switches have ever been put to the test in a real-world accident. When wells do surge out of control, the primary shut-off systems almost always work. Remote control systems such as the acoustic switch, which have been tested in simulations, are intended as a last resort.
Nevertheless, regulators in two major oil-producing countries, Norway and Brazil, in effect require them. Norway has had acoustic triggers on almost every offshore rig since 1993.
The U.S. considered requiring a remote-controlled shut-off mechanism several years ago, but drilling companies questioned its cost and effectiveness, according to the agency overseeing offshore drilling. The agency, the Interior Department's Minerals Management Service, says it decided the remote device wasn't needed because rigs had other back-up plans to cut off a well.
The U.K., where BP is headquartered, doesn't require the use of acoustic triggers.
On all offshore oil rigs, there is one main switch for cutting off the flow of oil by closing a valve located on the ocean floor. Many rigs also have automatic systems, such as a "dead man" switch as a backup that is supposed to close the valve if it senses a catastrophic failure aboard the rig.
As a third line of defense, some rigs have the acoustic trigger: It's a football-sized remote control that uses sound waves to communicate with the valve on the seabed floor and close it.
An acoustic trigger costs about $500,000, industry officials said. The Deepwater Horizon had a replacement cost of about $560 million, and BP says it is spending $6 million a day to battle the oil spill. On Wednesday, crews set fire to part of the oil spill in an attempt to limit environmental damage.
Some major oil companies, including Royal Dutch Shell PLC and France's Total SA, sometimes use the device even where regulators don't call for it.
Transocean Ltd., which owned and operated the Deepwater Horizon and the shut-off valve, declined to comment on why a remote-control device wasn't installed on the rig or to speculate on whether such a device might have stopped the spill. A BP spokesman said the company wouldn't speculate on whether a remote control would have made a difference.
Much still isn't known about what caused the problems in Deepwater Horizon's well, nearly a mile beneath the surface of the Gulf of Mexico. It went out of control, sending oil surging through pipes to the surface and causing a fire that ultimately sank the rig.
Unmanned submarines that arrived hours after the explosion have been unable to activate the shut-off valve on the seabed, called a blowout preventer.
BP says the Deepwater Horizon did have a "dead man" switch, which should have automatically closed the valve on the seabed in the event of a loss of power or communication from the rig. BP said it can't explain why it didn't shut off the well.
Transocean drillers aboard the rig at the time of the explosion, who should have been in a position to hit the main cutoff switch, are among the dead. It isn't known if they were able to reach the button, which would have been located in the area where the fire is likely to have started. Another possibility is that one of them did push the button, but it didn't work.
Tony Hayward, BP's CEO, said finding out why the blowout preventer didn't shut down the well is the key question in the investigation. "This is the failsafe mechanism that clearly has failed," Mr. Hayward said in an interview.
Lars Herbst, regional director of the Minerals Management Service in the Gulf of Mexico, said investigators are focusing on why the blowout preventer failed.
Industry consultants and petroleum engineers said that an acoustic remote-control may have been able to stop the well, but too much is still unknown about the accident to say that with certainty.
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| | | 26 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sat, May 01, 2010, 14:42
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24: Well, if it's a systematic problem with 85% of their plans for something that's potentially 30 times worse than the Deepwater Horizon project, I stand by my statement.
Presumably you thought it was relevant, or you wouldn't have posted it, right?
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| | | 27 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, May 01, 2010, 14:53
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The whistleblower's charges relate specifically to Atlantis. I don't see how neglegence there confirms whether everything within reason was done to prevent the Deepwater Horizon accident. I don't know anything about the engineering similarities between the two rigs, their documentation protocols, BP's management structure or a bunch of other relevent factors that do and don't come to mind. But you can stand by whatever you want.
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| | | 28 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sat, May 01, 2010, 15:20
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If you didn't think it was relevant to the topic, then why post it?
It appears that BP's standard business practices are at best lax when it comes to following the safety protocols.
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| | | 29 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, May 01, 2010, 15:27
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It's relevent because of the suggestion it makes about BP's practices. Base further assumptions on that at your own peril but in my opinion that's the kind of accusatory "fill-in-the-gaps" assumptive reasoning that leads to distortions like the notion that the modern political left is committed to the "Cloward Pivin strategy" as defined by crazy people on the political right.
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| | | 30 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, May 01, 2010, 15:59
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"Filling in the blanks" is different from "demonizing your political enemies with fantastic theories."
Besides, your own link describes a pervasive engineering-free environment for one oil rig. Oil rigs, by an large, are not custom made. They are made from a construction system and sequence by the company. We've got one that fails that BP cannot explain, and another by the same company with a systematic ignoring of safety checks. BP is now what we would call "a company of interest."
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| | | 31 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, May 01, 2010, 16:18
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The Deepwater Horizon was built by a company called Transocean Ltd. The Atlantis extracts both oil and natural gas and I have no idea what company built it.
I like the categorization, "a company of interest," which should not indicate the issue (of whether everything within reason was done to prevent the Deepwater Horizon) is answered.
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| | | 33 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 03, 2010, 23:54
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Former director of the International Arabian Horse Association (er, later FEMA director) Michael Brown: "Obama waited to respond to the oil spill in order to halt offshore drilling."
When you're in a hole, Brownie--stop drilling!
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| | | 34 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Mon, May 03, 2010, 23:58
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I still want to punch that guy in the face. He's living proof how dangerous incompetence can be.
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| | | 35 | Boldwin
ID: 183112613 Tue, May 04, 2010, 09:44
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Rush followed the daily schedule of the EPA director around for 9 days of totally ducking this issue. Why shouldn't Brown get the irony in the difference between the way the media played both stories? Proof positive if ever one was needed of just how completely in bed with the democrats the MSM is.
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| | | 37 | Boldwin
ID: 183112613 Tue, May 04, 2010, 10:10
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His house burning down?
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| | | 38 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Tue, May 04, 2010, 10:30
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his house burning down was a burden on tax payers, as he now lives in a $9,000+ a month mansion paid for by the taxpayers.
his security deposit was $10,000, and there was an $1,800 "pet" deposit for the family dog.
Rick Perry is high up on the Palin Scale for duping the public, and not giving two $hits about it.
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| | | 39 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Tue, May 04, 2010, 14:00
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Former director of the International Arabian Horse Association (er, later FEMA director) Michael Brown: "Obama waited to respond to the oil spill in order to halt offshore drilling."
Soooooooo, FEMA waited to respond to Katrina, why? In the belief that it would halt further hurricanes?
Brown has already shown himself to be an idiot.
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| | | 40 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, May 04, 2010, 14:12
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Apparently, the irony of assuming political bias influencing disaster response is lost on the former FEMA Director.
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| | | 41 | Mith
ID: 482583111 Wed, May 05, 2010, 08:50
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WSJ Federal regulators learned in a 2004 study that a vital piece of oil-drilling safety equipment may not function in deep-water seas but did nothing to bolster industry requirements.
The equipment, called shear rams, is supposed to seal off out-of-control oil and gas wells by pinching the pipe closed and cutting it.
As oil companies drilled wells in deeper water, the shear rams had to become stronger and manufacturers responded. But the federally commissioned study questioned whether enough was known about the force required to shear off a pipe at these depths to set proper standards.
The Interior Department's Minerals Management Service, which regulates offshore drilling, questioned whether shear rams were strong enough to shear through a pipe.
In two offshore incidents in 2001, the rams didn't work as expected. The agency issued new rules in 2003 instructing the oil industry to make sure the rams would work reliably.
In 2004, a study commissioned by the MMS raised significant questions about the ability of rams to cut through the stronger pipes used in deep-water drilling. Those thicker pipes—as well as the shear rams—must withstand the enormous pressures found at 5,000 feet below sea level.
The study noted there was no agreement on how to determine if the sheer rams would work properly in deep-water conditions.
Only three of 14 newly build rigs had blowout preventers that were able to squeeze off and cut the pipe at the water pressure likely to be experienced at the equipment's maximum water depth, the study noted.
"This grim snapshot illustrates the lack of preparedness in the industry to shear and seal a well with the last line of defense against a blowout," the study said. The study's authors, under contract to the federal government, did not respond to repeated calls for comment.
The study singled out Cameron for relying on calculations to determine the needed strength of shear arms using "shear forces lower than required or desired in many cases." Mr. Amann, the Cameron spokesman, declined to comment.
Despite the study, the MMS didn't issue any new regulations requiring that shear rams be beefed up. MMS spokesman Nicholas Pardi said the 2003 rules—which required operators make sure the shears were strong enough but didn't provide guidance—were the agency's last look at the issue.
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| | | 42 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Wed, May 05, 2010, 08:57
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ahhhhhhhhhhhhh "deregulation" and a lack of governmental oversight. Gotta love that unrestrained, free market, capitalism at work....don't ya?
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| | | 43 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, May 05, 2010, 09:54
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The study noted there was no agreement on how to determine if the sheer rams would work properly in deep-water conditions.
This is really a key, particularly since, as I understand it, the cost is very substantial. Why would a company invest in an expensive piece of safety equipment, not knowing whether it would actually work?
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| | | 44 | Mith
ID: 482583111 Wed, May 05, 2010, 10:27
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My guess is that's what it takes to appease oversight agencies or to ensure good press. And that whether they work is secondary.
That said I imagine that with engineering designs of this scale, there are often ideas put into use which cannot effectively be tested at full scale prior to being built.
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| | | 46 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138 Wed, May 05, 2010, 16:41
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He was on with Chris Mathews last night also.
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| | | 47 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, May 08, 2010, 10:56
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Bubble Of Methane Triggered Gulf Oil Rig Blast While the cause of the explosion is still under investigation, the sequence of events described in the interviews provides the most detailed account of the April 20 blast that killed 11 workers and touched off the underwater gusher that has poured more than 3 million gallons of crude into the Gulf.
Portions of the interviews, two written and one taped, were described in detail to an Associated Press reporter by Robert Bea, a University of California Berkeley engineering professor who serves on a National Academy of Engineering panel on oil pipeline safety and worked for BP PLC as a risk assessment consultant during the 1990s. He received them from industry friends seeking his expert opinion.
Based on the interviews, Bea believes that the workers set and then tested a cement seal at the bottom of the well. Then they reduced the pressure in the drill column and attempted to set a second seal below the sea floor. A chemical reaction caused by the setting cement created heat and a gas bubble which destroyed the seal.
Deep beneath the seafloor, methane is in a slushy, crystalline form. Deep sea oil drillers often encounter pockets of methane crystals as they dig into the earth.
As the bubble rose up the drill column from the high-pressure environs of the deep to the less pressurized shallows, it intensified and grew, breaking through various safety barriers, Bea said.
"A small bubble becomes a really big bubble," Bea said. "So the expanding bubble becomes like a cannon shooting the gas into your face."
Up on the rig, the first thing workers noticed was the sea water in the drill column suddenly shooting back at them, rocketing 240 feet in the air, he said. Then, gas surfaced. Then oil.
"What we had learned when I worked as a drill rig laborer was swoosh, boom, run," Bea said. "The swoosh is the gas, boom is the explosion and run is what you better be doing."
The gas flooded into an adjoining room with exposed ignition sources, he said.
"That's where the first explosion happened," said Bea, who worked for Shell Oil in the 1960s during the last big northern Gulf of Mexico oil well blowout. "The mud room was next to the quarters where the party was. Then there was a series of explosions that subsequently ignited the oil that was coming from below."
According to one interview transcript, a gas cloud covered the rig, causing giant engines on the drill floor to run too fast and explode. The engines blew off the rig and set "everything on fire," the account said. Another explosion below blew more equipment overboard.
BP spokesman John Curry would not comment Friday night on whether methane gas or the series of events described in the internal documents caused the accident.
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| | | 48 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, May 08, 2010, 11:12
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NYT [Minerals Management Service] records show that from 2001 to 2007, there were 1,443 serious drilling accidents in offshore operations, leading to 41 deaths, 302 injuries and 356 oil spills. Yet the federal agency continues to allow the industry largely to police itself, saying that the best technical experts work for industry, not for the government.
Critics say that, then and now, the minerals service has been crippled by this dependence on industry and by a climate of regulatory indulgence.
“Everything that’s done by the oil industry is done for profit,” said Senator Bill Nelson, Democrat of Florida, who demanded this week that the Interior Department investigate these backup safety systems. “Throw in the fact that regulators have taken a lax attitude toward overseeing their operations, and you have a recipe for catastrophe.”
Last year, BP, the owner of the well that blew up in the gulf, teamed with other offshore operators to oppose a proposed rule that would have required stricter safety and environmental standards and more frequent inspections. BP said that “extensive, prescriptive” regulations were not needed for offshore drilling, and urged the minerals service to allow operators to define the steps they would take to ensure safety largely on their own.
Numerous Congressional and internal investigations have called the oversight agency badly mismanaged and at times corrupt. It has been rocked by regular scandals, including disclosures in 2008 that agency officials took bribes and engaged in drug use and sex with oil industry officials. And its own scientists have said that senior agency officials in recent years revised staff reports to eliminate environmental concerns that might have complicated oil-company drilling applications for offshore sites in waters near Alaska.
“Problems at M.M.S. did not originate in this administration or its predecessor,” said Representative Darrell Issa of California, the senior Republican of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. “There is a bureaucracy and dysfunctional culture that has to be held accountable.”
Questions about the blowout preventers — which BP executives have said are at least partly to blame for the April 20 accident — date at least to February 2000, when a rig in the Gulf of Mexico spilled oil into the sea after a crew member accidentally pushed the wrong button, severing the connection between the rig and its blowout prevention device, known as a BOP.
“The rig was not equipped with a secondary system capable of securing the well in the absence of the primary BOP controls,” said a federal report on the accident.
To combat this serious safety flaw, the agency warned oil companies in 2000 and again in June 2009, after yet more problems emerged with a blowout preventer, reminding them that they needed to have “a reliable backup system in place.” But the agency never tried to write regulations that would detail the requirements for the backup systems.
Instead, over a decade ago, with the industry’s support, the agency reduced the frequency of inspections of blowout preventers to once every 14 days from once a week, citing the disruptions that these tests caused to oil drilling and extraction efforts.
In the absence of government regulations, all 23 of the oil drilling rigs currently working in the Gulf of Mexico rely on a backup device known as a remotely controlled submersible vehicle to turn on the blowout preventers if primary controls fail. That was the case with the Deepwater Horizon rig as well.
But a consultant hired by the mineral service in 2003 warned that these machines were frequently unreliable during blowouts, moving too slowly and often lacking power to do the job.
Worse, the same consultant concluded in a federally financed study that even if rig crews managed to turn the blowout preventer on, the most critical safety component inside these machines — the shear ram, which is meant to cut quickly through the well pipe to stop the flow of oil and gas — was often not strong enough to cut through the modern pipes that drilling rigs use.
“This grim snapshot illustrates the lack of preparedness in the industry to shear and seal a well with the last line of defense against a blowout,” said the September 2004 report, written by West Engineering.
Transocean, the company that operated the Deepwater Horizon rig for BP, has been cited twice in recent years by the authorities in Britain for failing to properly maintain a blowout preventer and related testing equipment on an offshore drill site there, with officials saying in November 2006 that the device “failed in service, exposing persons to risks that endangered their safety.”
Minerals Management Service officials have also pointed to statistics showing a decline in the number of offshore oil drilling blowouts and fatalities in recent years.
But in an interview this week, senior officials of the agency said that in light of the April accident, they could not confidently assert that the long-identified shortcomings with the blowout preventers had been resolved adequately
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| | | 51 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 10, 2010, 17:43
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This is all because we gave back that Churchill bust, isn't it?
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| | | 52 | Boldwin
ID: 8423823 Mon, May 10, 2010, 19:01
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When do we get pictures of the wall of fire the size of Rhode Island, advancing towards New Orleans?
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| | | 53 | biliruben
ID: 113582522 Mon, May 10, 2010, 19:05
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I think it's a freakin' hoax.
Have any of you actually seen this supposed oil spill with your own eyes?!?
I thought not.
All the photos were taken on the set of Waterworld.
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| | | 54 | Boldwin
ID: 8423823 Mon, May 10, 2010, 22:22
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I loved Colbert on the wall of fire. The reality of it not quite as funny or dramatic, going by this video.
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| | | 55 | astade Sustainer
ID: 214361313 Mon, May 10, 2010, 23:17
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RE: 50 Good post. I've suspected this since day one. At present, it's tough to make any precise determination, but I would bet that BP/Deepwater Horizon are being conservative with their estimates. Unfortunately, only time will tell.
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| | | 56 | J-Bar
ID: 514281022 Mon, May 10, 2010, 23:28
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I think since BP didn't plan on this and it will likely cause them to have to declare bankruptcy that they need to start on their bailout application.
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| | | 57 | astade Sustainer
ID: 214361313 Mon, May 10, 2010, 23:39
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why would they go bankrupt? have you even looked over their financials? they are a strong company.
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| | | 58 | J-Bar
ID: 514281022 Mon, May 10, 2010, 23:53
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So was The Donald before the divorce was filed for. Don't know if I would be buying any of their stock but you go ahead. The bailout comment was not serious but just a reflection of the idiocy and bailout mentality that we are living in.
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| | | 59 | astade Sustainer
ID: 214361313 Tue, May 11, 2010, 00:01
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I am not going to invest in BP (nor did I infer that). I was questioning the merit of you theorizing that they would declare bankruptcy. They are a strong company. Regarding the stock: If you look at what happened to Exxon after their spill in the late 80's (a similar if not a more devastating spill), you'll note that after the damage/litigation was over they went on to perform quite well.
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| | | 60 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Tue, May 11, 2010, 00:09
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I've had BP stock for a year and a half. Even after the horrendous plunge they took last week(like alsmost every other stock), it's still 10% above where I bought it. They also pay a 6% dividend, so right now it's a good buy.
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| | | 62 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, May 11, 2010, 18:10
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I heard their liabilities were capped at a paltry 75 mil
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| | | 63 | Frick
ID: 14440137 Thu, May 13, 2010, 08:40
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Not sure about the bias of the site, but criminal charges are likely.
link
And as the article mentions, while the Obama administration is trying to get the $75M cap lifted, there is no cap on criminal punishments.
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| | | 64 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Tue, May 18, 2010, 14:16
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several weeks before the explosion, the blowout preventer was damaged
One important implication of this report: BP's $75 million liability cap for economic damages does not apply if the company is guilty of willful negligence, and if last night's 60 Minutes report on the disaster is accurate, BP will certainly be on the hook for everything. ...........................
Everything would be, in the words of Carl Sagan,........Billions and Billions.
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| | | 65 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 18, 2010, 15:17
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stars don't have lawyers(will be the only ones who probably actually end up seeing the money)....plus you don't bite the hand that supplies you your drug of choice to hard.
I was just in the gulf coast and the lawyers are already descending on the area like the realtors did 5 years ago. I guess nothing changes for them, always getting exploited by someone ready leave as soon as the money dries up.
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| | | 66 | Boldwin
ID: 454382011 Thu, May 20, 2010, 12:56
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There's bigger, and then there's BIGGER!
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| | | 68 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Wed, May 26, 2010, 11:40
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AP Exclusive: Witness says BP took 'shortcuts'
Senior managers complained oil giant BP was "taking shortcuts" by replacing heavy drilling fluid with saltwater in the well that blew out, triggering the massive oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, according to witness statements obtained by The Associated Press.
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| | | 69 | Boldwin
ID: 404412616 Wed, May 26, 2010, 17:41
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That is the wing of the Republican party PD thinks should be controlling the party. Taking his cues from Hugo Chavez.
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| | | 70 | Boldwin
ID: 564353010 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 01:30
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While the current number will keep moving here is some interesting perspective.
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| | | 71 | astade Sustainer
ID: 214361313 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 01:34
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Boldwin, interesting graph. I wish they did it chronologically but that's a different story... can you post the link where you got that from? thanks.
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| | | 72 | Boldwin
ID: 564353010 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 01:40
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http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_060110/content/01125118.Par.4584.ImageFile.jpg
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| | | 73 | Boldwin
ID: 564353010 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 01:43
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High side estimates are four times as high, for the record.
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| | | 74 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 02:12
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The only problem I'd have with that graph (actually, two problems):
-as B points out, the high estimates are running quite a bit higher than the graph--in fact, BP's estimates are currently over 15K barrels/day.
-the Iraqi forces burned most of their oil. So the problem wasn't oil slowly leaking into eco systems, but hundreds of huge fires in a large desert. These aren't really comparable events, even though Limbaugh seems to want to minimize the one with the other.
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| | | 75 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 08:08
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Baldwin - what's your point with that graph? that the worst oil spill in U.S. History really isn't that bad?
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| | | 77 | Mith
ID: 482583111 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 08:17
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More from the same link:“[The] Exxon Valdez spill is cleaned up and everything is back to normal,” Limbaugh claimed last week. In fact, numerous studies have found that “oil from the 1989 Exxon Valdez spill is still being ingested by wildlife more than 20 years after the disaster.” “It just smells like a gas station,” Prince William Sound Science Center’s Kate Alexander told CBS News last month of the remnants of the spill. Moreover, the BP spill is especially pernicious due to its location in the fertile and fragile ecosystem of the northern Gulf. Click through for links.
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| | | 78 | Boldwin
ID: 564353010 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 09:54
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But...but...I thot it was the Alaskan coast that was the fragile ecosystem.
How do these things hunt and seek fragile ecosystems like homing pigeons?
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| | | 79 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 10:01
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I think it would be more accurate to compare this spill with IXTOC-1 spill. Both are similar in location and nature of the spill. I really have no idea what the long term effects of IXTOC were but I think they would be better used for comparison then the Exxon Valdez.
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| | | 80 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 10:18
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The 1979 disaster was in much more shallow waters, however.
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| | | 81 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 10:37
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But...but...I thot it was the Alaskan coast that was the fragile ecosystem.
The Prince William Sound is a fragile ecosystem, and damage from the spill has been and remains devastating to numerous of its environs.
In some of the hardest-hit areas, swaths of oil—buried just a few inches below the surface—run across the beaches. Water may circulate to the edges of the oil, but not through it.
"There are isolated pockets where you can still find effects of the oil spill," Rice said.
Among the animal species that have not recovered are common loons, harbor seals, harlequin ducks, and Pacific herring.
Sea otters, which eat clams buried underground, are particularly affected by the subsurface oil. The clams may be clean, but sea otters may get oil on their fur, which requires energy to cope with.
"It's like getting the flu three times a year instead of once," Rice said. "It makes you sicker and less capable of feeding. Sea otters eat 25 percent of their body weight every day. If that's lowered to 15 percent over, say, ten days, they will probably die."
Sea otters have been found with increased levels of a substance contained in petroleum products known as cytochrome P450.
"Knowing what we have found out in the last three to four years about sea otters and harlequin ducks, we probably would have been out there cleaning those beaches earlier," Rice said. "But we didn't know that at the time. We assumed that by 1992, we wouldn't see any more significant oil effects." link
Hard to figure how some can consider this a joking matter.
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| | | 82 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 10:40
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Sounds like one of those "I'm not bothered by it, so it must not be important" things that Rush pulls all the time.
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| | | 83 | Boldwin
ID: 564353010 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 12:47
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It is funny how every inch of land is portrayed as somehow unusually fragile and what were we thinking drilling or sailing past those fragile areas.
Can you not see the manipulated hysteria ride you are on?
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| | | 84 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 12:52
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It is funny how every inch of land is portrayed as somehow unusually fragile and what were we thinking drilling or sailing past those fragile areas.
while that's an impressive, and typical, exaggeration, the fact is that after centuries of abuse, we've done a helluva job ruining our planet.
Can you not see the manipulated hysteria ride you are on?
pretty much, the only person on this board who suffers from hysteria of any kind, is you.
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| | | 85 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jun 02, 2010, 12:53
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Look in the mirror. You are attacking a phantom.
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| | |
| | | 87 | Boldwin
ID: 564353010 Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 10:38
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Love her.
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| | | 88 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 10:40
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That's not a surprise. Clever slamming of liberals is right up your alley.
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| | | 89 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 11:28
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meanwhile, the tongue-in-cheek group i started on Facebook about plugging the BP Oil Spill with Sarah Palin, which i truly expected to top off at about 88 members, has over 11,000 members.
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| | | 90 | Boldwin
ID: 24528715 Tue, Jun 08, 2010, 08:31
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Hate, positive market indicator. - Scott Adams
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| | | 91 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Tue, Jun 08, 2010, 10:05
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update on 189 - almost 138,000 members, and coverage on Time.com...
(although i must have already mentioned that in another thread)
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| | | 92 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Jun 08, 2010, 10:08
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Just read where Obama's reaction to the disaster is a reflection of his hatred of the British.
Looks like the British will soon rival the Tea Party is how obsessed they are with how much Obama "hates" them.
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| | | 93 | Boldwin
ID: 24528715 Tue, Jun 08, 2010, 10:17
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Tree
Gratz on the plug from the Lucis Trust
They got the 'hairbrained' part right at least.
PD
I buy the 'he hates Britain more than you'll ever admit' part, but Obama's biggest motivator is that every dollar he extracts from BP is just one more hidden tax on the American consumer who will pay for it in the end.
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| | | 94 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 09:55
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| | | 95 | biliruben
ID: 16105237 Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 09:58
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Awesome.
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| | | 96 | Boldwin
ID: 24528715 Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 10:57
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"When they point out you were born in Austria, just call them birthers."
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| | | 97 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 11:26
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why would "they" do that?
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| | | 98 | Boldwin
ID: 24528715 Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 11:34
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*headslap*
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| | | 99 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 12:31
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Don't stop!
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| | | 100 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 13:41
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he'll be here all week, people. please tip your waitresses.
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| | | 101 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 14:24
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Try the veal!
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| | | 102 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 11:12
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will BP have the funds?
the part that i found interesting: Robert Talbut, chief investment officer at Royal London Asset Management, a shareholder in BP, said "there is a lot of very irrational and short-term selling going on." But he added that talk of a potential sale of assets or takeover bid — PetroChina Ltd. has been suggested by some as a potential suitor — was not surprising.
I wonder how the US government would respond to a choice between BP not paying up or selling off their gulf assets to a Chinese company?
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| | | 103 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 11:30
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Long term BP is absolutely fine.
Love how the shareholder (and investment officer!) characterizes BP stock sales as "very irrational." I think this is the kind of "analysis" which helped the housing bubble get bigger and bigger.
Meanwhile, Sarah Palin takes a call
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| | | 104 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 11:45
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Long term BP is absolutely fine. you don't think they are not running the models? You don't think blackmail is off the table?
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| | | 105 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 12:00
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who is running the models?
BP earned $5.65 billion in the first quarter of this year. They just purchased (with cash) increased stakes in the Valhall and Hod fields (North Sea) and agreed to increase production 2% across the board.
Right now, they have $8.34 billion cash on hand.
Will their stocks slide? Yes--by quite a bit. But long term they are in good shape, being both profitable and with a lot of cash on hand.
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| | | 106 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 12:27
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who is running the models?
BP
I am just saying the long term impact of the spill is going to be much worse than anyone thinks. Then again I think it will be the oil dispersants that will end being the true enemy and I guess that BP will not be on the hook for that one.
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| | | 107 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 14:07
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Who do REPUBLICANS want to foot the bill for the clean up?
Taxpayers, that's who.
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| | | 108 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 14:30
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I think BP will go Chapter 11, unless they stop this leak quickly. Or the English version of Chapter 11, if there is such a thing. You're gonna have every forrest gump wannabe claiming they can't fish, they lost all their income, woe is me, if it wasn't for BP they would have made all this money....class actions, lawyers (big winners), uncertainty for investors. Every hotel with an open room will be sueing. This is along the coast for hundreds and hundreds of miles. Add in fines and penalties, a dash of lost revenues from the spill itself, and top with people boycotting BP products and you have a recipe for bankruptcy found in Chapter 11 of the financial cookbook.
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| | | 109 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 14:39
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lawyers (big winners) almost sadder than the spill itself.
You're gonna have every forrest gump wannabe claiming they can't fish, they lost all their income, woe is me, if it wasn't for BP they would have made all this money.
already in motion people are saving receipts to charge to BP, or better yet some charter boats are getting paid to not fish by BP while at the same time taking charters out.
Most of business lost outside Louisiana, is not do to spill but do media coverage making it sound like there is oil everywhere.
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| | | 110 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 14:59
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No matter what, the lawyers win. Whether lawyers for those claiming losses, or those that BP hires to defend itself.
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| | | 111 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 16:52
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Who's bright idea was it to burn the oil? Not satisfied with destroying the ocean - gotta give the air some punishment too?
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| | | 112 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 16:54
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If you are the gulf and have any sort of commercial boat, you are pretty well fuct for a job for years, if not decades.
Pay their claims. I can assure you it will be too little to compensate for the destruction of your livelihood.
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| | | 113 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 17:52
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Hard to believe that two years into Obama's term, it would be a large oil company which blows up both of the Republican planks of "drill baby drill" and tort reform.
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| | | 114 | Boldwin
ID: 24528715 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 20:37
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There are still going to be pulenty of Republicans running on drill-baby-drill and tort reform.
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| | | 115 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jun 10, 2010, 23:05
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I sure hope so. At least we'll have a couple of Birthers into the mix to make it fun.
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| | | 116 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Fri, Jun 11, 2010, 00:00
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Seems like a great combination: let the oil companies spill whatever they want to and you can't hold them liable for it.
Capitalism at its finest right there.
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| | | 117 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jun 11, 2010, 09:52
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it would be a large oil company which blows up both of the Republican planks of "drill baby drill" and tort reform.
not sure how this is going to blow up tort reform, when people see lawyers getting rich and people getting pennies, people will realize there more need than ever.
It also saved many other states from similar fates after Obama lifted the ban of on drilling in Atlantic coastal waters.
Pay their claims.
everyone i have talked to that has tried to get money out of PB has been paid for their lost revenues.
If you are the gulf and have any sort of commercial boat, you are pretty well fuct for a job for years, if not decades.
well on the bright side for them and the gulf if the oil don't kill the fish, a season or two without fishing should really help there populations and maybe they will not have to sail down to Mexican waters to find fish.
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| | | 118 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jun 11, 2010, 10:49
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I am just saying the long term impact of the spill is going to be much worse than anyone thinks
Which is why tort reform won't be going anywhere. If the GOP tries to make it an issue, the response from people who are genuinely harmed by the spill will be huge. And this blowback will be coming from the GOP's last remaining stronghold: Southern states.
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| | | 121 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jun 11, 2010, 14:35
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Which is why tort reform won't be going anywhere. If the GOP tries to make it an issue, the response from people who are genuinely harmed by the spill will be huge. And this blowback will be coming from the GOP's last remaining stronghold: Southern states.
I am not too sure i would count my chickens so fast, the south is bit hypocritical when it comes to those things kind of things, especially the gulf coast.
Looks like the plan was hope BP caps the leak, till then lie
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| | | 122 | Frick
ID: 515191420 Mon, Jun 14, 2010, 21:19
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Not sure if this was posted before, but I thought it was a good recount of what happened and before the blow-out.
BP Criminal Negligence Documented
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| | | 123 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 00:33
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Long term BP is absolutely fine.
That's awfully confident. There have been rumblings in the business press for close to two weeks that BP is already considering bankruptcy.
It's amusing how self righteous and indigent the American public are about this spill as they continue on their way consuming 25% of the worlds energy.
We are oil whores, of curse this was bound to happen and we have no one to blame but ourselves.
(Wanted to add some self loathing for Baldwin)
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| | | 124 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 10:09
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Take into into conservancy, and make sure every dime of profits goes to the people of the gulf, until their world is made whole.
I'm sure England will have something to say about that, but BP should be an example of the real costs of negative externalities.
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| | | 125 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 10:50
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It's amusing how self righteous and indigent the American public are about this spill as they continue on their way consuming 25% of the worlds energy.
We are oil whores, of curse this was bound to happen and we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Or how if this had been Exxon and this had been third world country we would have been upset if they would have had paid 25 million. Let us all revisit what happens when American's do this in other countries. Some how i feel that 500 million would not have covered the cost.
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| | | 126 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 11:21
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We are, indeed, oil whores. But it isn't like we're not paying for the stuff. Oil purchasing follows the rules of any capitalistic enterprise.
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| | | 127 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 12:02
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We are clearly not paying the full costs of oil.
Well, unless you are a business in the gulf. Then you are paying and then some.
Economic models trying to capture the negative externalities estimate we should add about 2 bucks a gallon to pay true costs.
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| | | 128 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 12:10
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Of course we aren't paying the full cost of it. But not paying the full cost of oil means we save elsewhere too. Cheaper food, for instance.
The models attempting to capture the "true" cost of oil are doomed to "best guesses" since oil use is incredibly pervasive in our economy. I haven't seen any models which include the benefits of underpaying for oil costs--they might be there, but those making the models are unlikely to be biased in any direction other than the thought that Americans are all getting free rides on their Hummers while wildlife chokes on the oil.
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| | | 129 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 12:12
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Tax it, toss a quarter in a disaster insurance fund, half into transit, and a quarter into subsidies for R and D for alternative energy.
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| | | 130 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 12:15
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You warp the capitalist incentives when you artificially subsidize oil.
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| | | 131 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 12:18
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I'm not sure how that would express itself in an industry with high barriers to entry already. And oil is already heavily taxed at each step--I don't know of any other resource which is as heavily taxed.
That there exists a disconnect between the tax harvesting and the cost is no doubt. Which is probably why the "true" costs of oil aren't covered. But I don't, for a minute, think additional government taxation of oil will "solve" the "problem."
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| | | 132 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 12:32
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Of course we can solve our dependency on oil over night. We should be promoting policies which move us in the right direction, however.
Making users pay the real costs is the minimum we should be doing.
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| | | 133 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 12:33
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Can't not can
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| | | 134 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 17:50
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We are, indeed, oil whores. But it isn't like we're not paying for the stuff. Oil purchasing follows the rules of any capitalistic enterprise.
That's not the point PD. We need oil. We are addicted. The planet is running out of "easy" oil. We have to go into deep sea drilling to get our drug.
Maybe BP made some mistakes but when we have such an addiction and need, this was going to happen soon or later.
The American public seems only concerned with blaming BP and not their SUV's.
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| | | 136 | biliruben
ID: 16105237 Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 01:53
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Beyond the economics, that's the monstrous failing. Subsidizing oil makes it far too easy for us to compromise our ethics and our principles. It allows us to continue failed policies and lifestyles instead of prompting us to move towards a brighter, sustainable future.
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| | | 137 | Boldwin
ID: 135311520 Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 05:02
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Yeah, the pages covering yurts in my 'Whole Earth Catelog' are hanging by tatters. How many times I've dreamed....
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| | | 138 | Boldwin
ID: 135311520 Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 05:07
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*reverie*C'mon Rhetta, hitch up the yaks. Time to move on to a greener lifestyle. It only took me 30 years wading thru the red tape. It's finally come in the mail! Our federal lands grazing permit!
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| | | 139 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 09:51
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Maybe BP made some mistakes but when we have such an addiction and need, this was going to happen soon or later.
The American public seems only concerned with blaming BP and not their SUV's.
as bad as the spill is, in many ways we were lucky it was BP not one of the smaller companies. the accident might have happened and they just closed up shop and filed for bankruptcy, then what would have done?
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| | | 140 | WTC Building 7
ID: 51538158 Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 10:01
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link
BP Was Founding Member of ‘Cap-and-Trade’ Lobby
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| | | 141 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 10:57
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Oh Sarah!
...Palin said Obama had really blown it by not reaching out to the Dutch since they proved themselves so good at building dikes and sluices and dams to reclaim land from the sea.
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| | | 143 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 12:34
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Obama squeezes a $20b promise out of BP for oil cleanup costs
Meanwhile, at the hearing with the BP CEO, one Republican continues to bend over for Big Oil:
Rep. Joe Barton of Texas, the senior Republican on the committee, criticized the White House’s brokering the $20 billion fund as a “shakedown,” and apologized to Mr. Hayward for what he called the politicization of the crisis.
Mr. Barton said he was “ashamed” of the meeting at the White House on Wednesday, at which top BP officials pledged to set aside $20 billion to pay future economic and environmental claims.
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| | | 144 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 15:40
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I cannot follow this story, this whole thing makes me sick. Nothing, though, is more disturbing than the logic Joe Barton. Is this REALLY the platform of the Republican Party, large corporations not only should not be regulated, but when they cause major environmental damage, they should not be held responsible, either?
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| | | 145 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 16:40
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I cannot follow this story, this whole thing makes me sick. Nothing, though, is more disturbing than the logic Joe Barton.
SZ - some of the comments on the Facebook page i created are bewildering. One person went on a rant about how there is now a moratorium on drilling, saying "we don't stop driving when there are car accidents, we don't stop transporting when 18-wheelers turn over, we don't stop flying when planes crash!"
i pointed out that on 9/11, we did stop flying, because it was epic in scope, much like this.
her response "liberals don't know anything!"
these people are NUTS.
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| | | 147 | C.SuperFreak
ID: 2311461823 Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 17:00
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1979 or 2010?
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| | | 149 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 19:34
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that is hysterical.
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| | | 150 | Boldwin
ID: 135311520 Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 19:39
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We resumed flying almost immediately and you don't.
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| | | 151 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 19:43
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says the guy who accepts a holocaust deniers word as the gospel.
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| | | 152 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 194174 Mon, Jun 21, 2010, 07:30
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The Obama administration "has been constrained by the Oil Pollution Act of 1990, which basically gives the responsible party the lead role in trying to not only fix the problem, but contain the problem." politifact.com FALSE
The Oil Pollution Act included amendments to the Clean Water Act to provide the president three options in the wake of an oil event, the Congressional Research Service concluded. The president could:
Perform cleanup immediately ("federalize" the spill); Monitor the response efforts of the spiller; Or, direct the spiller's cleanup activities.
The Environmental Protection Agency describes the OPA this way:
"The OPA improved the nation's ability to prevent and respond to oil spills by establishing provisions that expand the federal government's ability, and provide the money and resources necessary, to respond to oil spills."
...
But in this case, her interpretation of the Oil Pollution Act of 1990, is incorrect. She said the law "basically gives the responsible party the lead role in trying to not only fix the problem, but contain the problem." In fact, the Oil Pollution Act specifcially gives the federal government the authority to decide who's in charge of the clean-up -- the polluter or the government. The company, in this case BP, will pay for the clean-up response. But the federal government can give the orders if it chooses. We rate Brazile's statement False.
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| | | 153 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Jun 21, 2010, 11:20
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Sounds like this Politifact piece was in response to a Democratic "strategist" spouting off. I haven't heard anyone in the Administration use the OPA as an excuse for anything.
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| | | 154 | Boldwin
ID: 545192117 Mon, Jun 21, 2010, 21:06
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Lesson of the Ixtoc spill.
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| | | 156 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 15:32
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I am so glad that the media is not down there smattering The Obama Administration day in and day out like they did during Katrina when George W. Bush was President.
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| | | 159 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 23:27
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Welcome to the Polical Forum, Mr. The Left Behind
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| | | 160 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 23:58
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Ditto. Hope you brought your shield. Lots of baggage gets thrown around here.
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| | | 161 | Boldwin
ID: 34641216 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 07:41
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I am surprised no one has pointed out that on this forum, no one has raked Obama over the coals ala Bush/Katrina. There has been no thread, 'BP, Obama's Katrina?'.
With exception of the egregious example of turning away the best foreign skimmer ships to please the unions, I haven't seen the point of getting worked up.
The left probably does deserve the thread I suggested for their overblown attack on Bush/Katrina but I just can't swallow acting like a liberal just to keep the balance.
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| | | 162 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 09:22
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Can someone explain how post #158 is within the boundaries of the policy on Civility & Respect that's highlighted in yellow towards the bottom of the page?
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| | | 163 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 10:08
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#161: The skimmers meme is simply not true. Another conservative talking point getting whizzed around the conservative media faster and faster until it is released to the public at large. But it is DOA. Not true.
#162: I agree. The last half of that post, DW, is out-of-bounds IMO. Please edit or delete. I'll be away from the comp for an hour or so at a meeting and won't have time to zap it until I get back.
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| | | 164 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 10:15
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If you have a serious complaint, please email the moderators. You'll find their email address right there in that highlighted yellow portion. If that gets deleted, though, then I am going to have a complaint about roughly half of the posts on this board.
My statement stands though--if you want to seriously discuss the issue as to why some mysterious thing hasn't been discussed, I explained it to you. If you just want to come on here and throw fact-free allusions around hoping they stick, then that adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. If you want to try to make the case that the two situations are actually comparable and that Media Company A did X to Bush and Y to Obama in genuinely identical situations, then please post links so we can judge instead of throwing out one unsubstantiated line and hoping the imagination runs away with it.
I'll spell out the problem for you again:
The reason that there hasn't been a comparable thread made, or comparable complaints made, is because they are two completely different situations, and two completely different responsibilities.
In one case, you have a man-made, corporate disaster, and for the most part the people held responsible are the people who created the problem in the first place.
In the other case, you have a wholly natural disaster, and for the most part the government (federal, mainly, with state and local components as well) is responsible for the evacuation and cleanup. It's a little bit hard to call Mother Nature before a Senate oversight committee, you know, what with the having to serve a subpoena and all.
So, because you can't make that comparison (because it would be completely ridiculous on its face), you take the Glenn Beck approach of just saying "isn't it strange that those wacky liberals haven't done the same thing, hmm, I wonder why...". To which the only intelligent answer for those who have seen this charade before is "no, it's not strange at all, because otherwise you're comparing apples to alien artifacts from the planet Xargon V--but if you want to try to make that case, go right ahead and make a fool of yourself."
If that genuinely was NOT your intent, and you were genuinely curious as to why, I'll offer you a partial apology in that you didn't intentionally use Play 16 from the Big Book of How To Smear Your Political Opponents Without Using Facts Or Logic--but having seen that play run so many times, it's a little hard to execute accidentally.
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| | | 166 | Boldwin
ID: 34641216 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 10:36
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Paterico's Pontifications: 6/26Despite government claims to the contrary, someone is telling oil skimmers they need a Jones Act waiver. Yesterday’s AP report on the giant “A Whale” oil skimmer says the vessel’s operator stated he needs a Jones Act waiver, even though his only mission is to skim oil more than 3 miles off the coast — something the Maritime article reports does not require a Jones Act waiver. Bottomline...the largest highest capacity oil skimmer ship in the world dithered for several weeks while the Obama admin decided if it passed muster with several red tape issues including the Jones Act and the EPA.
I don't believe the government knows much about oil drilling and management of this type of event and as I generally think the government is the last place you ever want to look for a solution, I don't generally want to jump on Obama for not being heavy-handed enuff certainly. The red tape issue is the one I would however point out. As usual government red tape is the enemy.
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| | | 167 | Guru
ID: 330592710 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 10:52
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DWetzel- [158] wasn't even a close call. PD showed much more restraint than I did. Any post that asks someone to GTFO is pretty much DOA, regardless the rest of the content.
I also just whacked 165 as well, based solely on its last sentence, which was wholly unnecessary, confrontational, and uncomfortably belittling.
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| | | 168 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 10:58
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Then please delete 161-- it's insulting to liberals.
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| | | 169 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 11:04
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Also, thanks everyone for moderating in public, while when I asked for things to be deleted in the thread in the past I was ignored and insulted for it. Now, you choose to call me out in public.
Perhaps you could consider applying the same standards to everyone in the future. That would be greatly appreciated. I hope you don't find this an unreasonable request.
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| | | 170 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 11:07
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#166: Jones Act waivers are not required for the skimmers. End of story. Some countries did offer them, but all of the offers were to sell or rent skimmers to BP. No one was offering free services to the United States, and some of the offers were redundant, involved things we didn't want (such as dispersement chemicals with a known carcinogen), or were merely sales offers of one sort or another.
Despite the Right's need to try to harm Obama politically on every single issue, their efforts to advocate for more government intrusion into the spill reveals the depths to which they place politics above anything. They seem to think that the US should have literally put things in the way of BP.
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| | | 171 | Boldwin
ID: 34641216 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 11:47
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#166: Jones Act waivers are not required for the skimmers. End of story.
Except when it gets waved in the skipper's face anyway.
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| | | 172 | Boldwin
ID: 34641216 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 11:53
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their efforts to advocate for more government intrusion into the spill
Well that isn't universal, now is it? And your new found aversion to government meddling where it has no expertise won't stop you from demonizing Joe Barton for apologizing to BP for congressional sophmoric piling on.
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| | | 173 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 11:56
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Really? Where did you read that?
The article you linked to mentions that the company (on June 25th) thought it needed a Jones Act waiver, in addition to other approvals (from the Coast Guard and the EPA, among other entities). There is nothing in that article about the government waving a Jones Act waiver in the "skipper's face."
Of course, the fact that the ship is already on-site should put to the lie the belief that a Jones Act waiver is required.
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| | | 175 | Boldwin
ID: 34641216 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 12:27
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No one here ever said the Jones Act applied. The skipper appears to have been given that impression three weeks ago by the administration or some agency however. And that the ship now appears unwieldy doesn't take away from the fact that the world's highest capacity skimmer was turned away for weeks before it was tested on this particular situation.
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| | | 176 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 13:00
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It seems that if someone's goal is to incite on the forum and have posts deleted then there's no point to responding to that person or even allowing them to post in the first place. Thanks for mopping that up.
To the other people. I've seen on TV from a former Naval officer that the leak could have been successfully plugged up with an explosive; either nuclear or a large conventional explosive. The Russians supposedly have done this with nukes about five times. I can see the argument against using a nuclear device, but if a large conventional weapon could do it, is it worth trying?
Why not just do that and prevent the largest ecological disaster in US history?
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| | | 177 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 13:03
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No one here ever said the Jones Act applied
Bottomline...the largest highest capacity oil skimmer ship in the world dithered for several weeks while the Obama admin decided if it passed muster with several red tape issues including the Jones Act and the EPA
Hmmm.
#176: I read about that some time ago. I think the idea was abandoned because of the sheer depth of the leak--many times what had been done before.
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| | | 178 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 13:10
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From what I've heard about it, the depth of the leak was not a deterrant. Anyone here know how deep submarines go?
Is your concern of the depth of the leak related to our ability to deliver the weapon down there or if the weapon itself could withstand the pressure before we set it off?
I'm thinking we could've handled that.
I think criticizing Obama for the leak starting is about as fair as what Bush got for Katrina. Its not like Bush was down in New Orleans with a hot air dryer blowing the winds or Obama down 5000 feet with a ratchet set loosening the bolts. The problem though is that both leaders failed to act decisively when it mattered. In Obama's case it involved not trying to blow it up when it was shown to have worked in other situations and in Bush's it was not getting help fast enough.
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| | | 179 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 13:36
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You keep wanting them to be comparable. They're not. I've explained why, I'll explain it again and please state where you disagree.
In one case (the Gulf), British Petroleum caused the mess, and they are the party responsible for cleaning up the mess. It'd be very nice if the US government helped, of course.
In the other case, Mother Nature caused the mess. It's hard to get Mother Nature to spontaneously clean it up, so the government kinda fills that role because, you know, that's how it works.
Answer this: How is the government supposed to have "acted decisively" in this case? Please answer this, then I'll have a follow up question or two for you, but without answering this you're basically engaging in the same pointless hand-waving that you did before.
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| | | 180 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 13:49
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I think blowing it up is a last resort. Why do that , if you do not have to.
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| | | 181 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 14:09
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There are enough differences to make them un-comparable, IMO. Not only were the original problems man-made versus natural, but the criticism against the Bush Administration was the very poor response by an agency charged with responding to disasters.
In other words, FEMA under "Heckofajob" Brown was charged by statute with disaster response and did a bad job of it. There is no such federal agency responsible for responding to oil leaks. Bush was criticized for the government not doing its (a criticism often made by conservatives against the government when a Republican is not in the White House).
Obama is being criticized by people for not doing---well, something. It isn't clear what, exactly, but they know they don't like what he's doing or not doing (typically made by people who who would criticize him for doing what they are urging him to do).
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| | | 182 | Frick
ID: 446402113 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 14:40
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I agree that they are different enough that an apples-to-apples comparison isn't apt.
But, don't the local and state governments have some responsibility and blame for the Katrina disaster? To leave them out and assign all of the blame to Bush and FEMA is wrong.
Is it fair to blame Obama for not pushing harder and demanding more resources be made available? Maybe, but people who hate Obama are going to go that regardless.
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| | | 183 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 14:46
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In the case of Katrina, I think the local government (much more than the state) deserves some criticism, certainly. But that doesn't mean that the criticism leveled against FEMA was unwarranted, or that this is some kind of "Obama's Katrina" as many on the Right are hoping and praying for.
If there was any expertise in the federal government to plug oil leaks I'd be all for their direct involvement. But all that expertise was on the private side, so letting BP take the lead in plugging their own well (while helping coordinate outside help and government resources) was probably the best way to go.
If there was a failure on the federal level, it was how BP could accumulate such a long list of safety violations over some years and not have a red flag raised.
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| | | 184 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 14:59
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'I agree that they are different enough that an apples-to-apples comparison isn't apt.
But, don't the local and state governments have some responsibility and blame for the Katrina disaster?"
Short answer: Sure, of course. And they were in for plenty of criticism too. (As often happens with these things, Democrats threw most of their blame at Bush and FEMA, and Republicans threw most of their blame on Nagin and Landrieu.)
Of course, that's because the party responsible for the damage wasn't available as the primary source of blame for why stuff wasn't fixed up.
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| | | 185 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 14:59
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"If there was a failure on the federal level, it was how BP could accumulate such a long list of safety violations over some years and not have a red flag raised."
I'll take a wild gue$$ a$ to how that could have po$$ibly happened.
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| | | 186 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 15:03
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I'm of the mind that this was due to weakened federal regulation enforcement overall. Whether that had to do with money or not I'm going to leave to the CT's.
I think what is clear is that the Republican drive toward neutering (or eliminating, when they could) government regulatory oversight across a wide number of industries has proved mostly disastrous, regardless of whether other factors were at play when the various disasters made themselves known.
Coming as it does from an unhealthy and purposefully-incomplete understanding of the proper role of government, this is no surprise.
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| | | 187 | chode
ID: 23412621 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 08:41
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Obviously the "proper role of government" is to be all things to all people.
And if you disagree, then just wait until something goes wrong, so I can tell you how right I am.
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| | | 188 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 09:09
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I think if we blame Bush for Katrina and Obama for BP then we might as well blame them for cloudy days too.
Sometimes events of such magnitude happen that it is beyond any reasonable level of anybody to control it. You can blame Bush for little things here and there and you can blame Obama for not blowing up the well, but to have the media down there flooring Bush and flooring Obama is just stupid.
And to play partisan games about well the stupid Democrats in Louisianna failed in Katrina and the government regs failed in BP. Well guess what, the Democrats have been running things for a while now. If they were so darned concerned about those regs they could've changed them.
BP slacked off, was probably negligent, and they are paying the price for that. Obama, Bush, the Republicans, and the Democrats have about as much to do with this situation as they do about the weather.
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| | | 189 | Boldwin
ID: 40648227 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 09:24
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"If there was a failure on the federal level, it was how BP could accumulate such a long list of safety violations over some years and not have a red flag raised." - PD...and regurgitated by othersBP, now under federal scrutiny because of its role in the deadly Gulf of Mexico explosion and oil spill, is one of three finalists for a federal award honoring offshore oil companies for "outstanding safety and pollution prevention."
The winner of the award - chosen before the April 20 oil rig incident - was to be announced this coming Monday at a luncheon in Houston. But the U.S. Department of Interior this week postponed the awards ceremony, saying it needs to devote its resources to the ongoing situation resulting from the Deepwater Horizon oil rig explosion and fire...
A spokeswoman for the Interior Department's Minerals Management Service said she did not know which of the three finalists for the non-monetary award had been selected, nor did she say whether the current circumstances could influence the decision if BP was the winner. Winners of the award are kept secret until the ceremony, she said. ------------ What was the safety record?The strong inspection record led MMS last year to herald the Deepwater Horizon as an industry model for safety.
The Deepwater Horizon's record was so exemplary, according to MMS officials [the government body in charge of monitoring oil rig safety -B], that the rig was never on inspectors' informal "watch list" for problem rigs. In addition BP was, according to blogs I've read, awarded a safety award last year, an award which was actually presented to BP on the Deepwater Horizon rig.
I am really getting tired of all the after-the-fact anti-business piling on. Crap happens...even to the best of us. Get over it.
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| | | 190 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 09:47
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In one case (the Gulf), British Petroleum caused the mess, and they are the party responsible for cleaning up the mess. It'd be very nice if the US government helped, of course.
hypothetical here but what if it was smaller company and this had happened. And they just decided you know what we can't handle this we are closing up shop. What would we have done?
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| | | 191 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 09:52
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Crap happens...even to the best of us. Get over it
Translation: The worst environmental disaster in human history happens, but let's not blame the company responsible for this catastrophe. Instead, let me try to pin this on the Left somehow.
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| | | 192 | Boldwin
ID: 3762229 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:06
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Razor
Actually the worst environmental disaster in human history was Saddam lighting up every oil well in the middle east, but you were too busy trying to save his bacon to notice.
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| | | 193 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:06
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Crap happens...even to the best of us. Get over i
Seems like the typical response of the Right to anything bad done by businesses. And they wonder why they keep losing elections?
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| | | 194 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:13
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Yes, let's talk about BP's exemplary safety record. It's impressive that such a large company has maintained such an excellent safety record over a long period of time, avoiding fatalities at other facilities by properly maintaining equipment, as well as keeping Alaskan pipelines clog free and safe from explosions, as well as all the other things we'd expect a company with an exemplary safety record to do.
Oh, wait, never mind.
As for the "tired of anti-business piling on", get over it. Does that mean that you don't think that the people responsible for making a mess should clean it up? That seems like a great incentive for companies to not give a damn about any sort of pollution ever and cut every corner in the book. I'm sure that will go over splendidly when the gas tanker overturns in your front yard. I guess it'd be your problem then and not theirs.
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| | | 195 | Boldwin
ID: 25616229 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:16
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I'm not the one who stood on the deck of the Deepwater Horizon and handed them a safety award.
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| | | 196 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:17
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Re: 190--
I'd guess that we do what we can to make the company clean up to the best of its ability (and if that means they go bankrupt, then I guess they go bankrupt; someone else will buy their assets and do a better job), and then the people (read: government) gets stuck with the rest of it.
It's not hypothetical, of course. We do this all the time. Ever hear of Superfund
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| | | 197 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:18
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#190: You first use up their bonds to pay for what needs to be done. Then you take their assets, sell them, and use that to pay for what needs to be done.
Assuming costs outstrip bonds and assets, then the taxpayers get stuck with the balance. There is no difference (except in scale) between this and any other company that causes an environmental failure.
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| | | 198 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:23
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195: Thus proving what, exactly? That BP was doing everything right?
Or that BP was able to fool/bribe regulators into thinking they were doing enough right?
Or that the regulators in charge of investigating BP were overworked, not terribly competent, and generally unable to properly see what was going on?
I vote for the last one.
You still haven't answered the question of what you think BP's liability SHOULD be for this. It's an important question that deserves an answer.
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| | | 199 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:31
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Re 196 and 197, money does not remove oil from the water or stop leaking wells. what would the government done?
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| | | 200 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:41
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Actually the worst environmental disaster in human history was Saddam lighting up every oil well in the middle east, but you were too busy trying to save his bacon to notice.
Can you clarify what you mean by me trying to save Saddam's bacon? I don't recall that event in my life.
Also, do you have any evidence that a) the Kuwait oil fires were more environmentally destructive than this or b) that it matters for the sake of this discussion?
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| | | 201 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:55
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Re 196 and 197, money does not remove oil from the water or stop leaking wells. what would the government done?
I'm not sure I've understood the question properly, because it seems like a really obvious answer if you're asking what I think you're asking...
Use the money to pay someone to go clean it up. Which is also what the business operator does when they DO have the money to clean it up themselves, unless they themselves have some expertise in cleaning it up in the first place, in which case it's probably cheaper for the business to just do it themselves.
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| | | 202 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 11:05
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Exactly. Money pays for the stuff to be cleaned up.
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| | | 203 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 13:04
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You first use up their bonds to pay for what needs to be done. Then you take their assets, sell them, and use that to pay for what needs to be done.
See now this makes sense. And forget that silly liability cap of what was it, 75 million dollars? This country has been dumped on enough the last three years. If BP tanks, so what. A company that stupid shouldn't be in business anyway. I'm sure Exxon or somebody would be happy to buy up their oil fields.
This is what we should've done with the banks. Instead of all the bailouts and trillions of dollars, just look at the banks and say "FAIL". Same thing with Obama's union buddies that he saved at GM and Chrysler. If some guy wants a loan just let him borrow from the fed or the bank down the street if they're still open.
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| | | 204 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 13:41
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Fine, great, works for me! Let 'em succeed or fail on their own merits.
(Bet you weren't expecting THAT response from me, were you?)
Alternatively, if they want the benefit of being able to dump the problems they create on government, that's fine too--as long as they're willing to pony up enough money, in the aggregate, to cover that benefit. Otherwise, they're basically stealing from everyone.
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| | | 205 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 13:45
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Instead of all the bailouts and trillions of dollars, just look at the banks and say "FAIL"
A lot of the recently passed reform bill was exactly like this.
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| | | 206 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 13:57
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I think FinReg was a good idea. What was Obama going to do, let the banks take trillions of dollars to stay in business after they ruined the economy and then not change the rules of the game for them to do it again?
Obama's got lots of work to do though. He's got to figure out how to balance the need for new regulations and creating jobs and allowing the banks to make loans. Because its gonna be the little guy with a small company that won't get access to credit. The Fortune 500 guys will be fine. Small business is where the jobs are at. I'm not so sure he's the guy to create the millions of jobs we need to create. He has no experience with that. Sorry, but the President ought to have experience handling the things that are wrong with the country. I think its reasonable to expect a President to have some sort of executive experience. Obama doesn't have it and its costing us.
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| | | 207 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:03
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When it comes to small business support I think Obama is doing exactly the right things. I'm not sure where you think he's failing in that regard.
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| | | 208 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:08
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Fairly major nitpick: Obama was not even in office yet (he was inaugurated in January 2009) when the auto companies got their first bailouts, at least if this is to be believed.
So were they Bush's union buddies too? (Answer: basically, yes.)
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| | | 209 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:33
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Exactly. Money pays for the stuff to be cleaned up.
who would the government hired to fix the leak? why do you think they were so hands off of BP, because they knew not what to do.
And throwing money at things does not necessary fix or clean up anything. If you have doubts about this see Katrina and Haiti.
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| | | 210 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:34
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Exactly. Money pays for the stuff to be cleaned up.
who would the government hired to fix the leak? why do you think they were so hands off of BP, because they knew not what to do.
And throwing money at things does not necessary fix or clean up anything. If you have doubts about this see Katrina and Haiti.
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| | | 211 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:37
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"who would the government hired to fix the leak?"
Any one of a bazillion different environmental cleanup companies on smaller scale projects, and on something like this? I don't know, but I'm not in the business of hiring environmental cleanup companies. Who's doing the cleanup now? That's who I'd probably hire. Clearly it's physically possible to clean it up, because it's being done now.
In the long run, the question is should the people that made the mess clean it up, or should you? If the people that made it can't clean it up, then it falls on the rest of us to either pay for it or live with it--but if they do have the means to clean it up, then they should clean it up (either themselves, or by hiring the people capable of doing it).
I honestly don't know if BP is directly cleaning it up, or if they've hired Acme Oil Spill Cleanup company. I fail to see why it's a relevant question, if indeed you're even asking it.
Also, again, it's silly to compare this to Katrina and Haiti. Natural disasters and man-made disasters are two different things here, people.
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| | | 212 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:53
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For some companies that are working on the spill now, read: http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/06/18/bp-contractor-army/
And yes, BP is actually hiring basically all of those to do the cleanup--which is, IMO, as it should be. Those calling for the government to "take action" and to "do something" would, I'd presume, be asking the government to hire these companies on your dime instead of on BP's dime. They'd want BP to shoulder all of the profits, and none of the liabilities.
The other sort of company that would need to be hired is one to cap the well in the first place, since it doesn't make sense to clean it up while the oil is still flowing. That would essentially be like drying yourself off while still standing under the shower. It's not very productive.
The company you'd be most likely to want to hire for that is, of course, someone like BP. I suppose we could pay them a bunch of money to patch their well. If you think that's fair, then I have this really awesome money-making scheme I can get you in on the ground floor of.
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| | | 213 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 15:23
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who would the government hired to fix the leak
They hire whoever they can. The government is the fixer of last resort.
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| | | 214 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 15:49
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Halliburton bought oil clean-up company Boots & Koots 2 weeks before disaster.
This is the main company that cleaned up the Iraq mess, caused by Saddam. I think it's the one Red Adair worked for. We could use him right now.
Note that the cleanup company was bought two weeks before the disaster.
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| | | 215 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 16:00
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Yup. A purchase which was in the works for a few weeks. Good purchase for them.
Note that Boots & Koots doesn't do work on underwater wells.
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| | | 216 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 08:48
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#207 Because small businesses are not hiring the policies of the Obama Administration are failing miserably. The stimulus was supposed to keep unemployment at 8%. Obama thinks that he can help small business with more regulation and rules. That's not true. Squeeze a balloon and it pops. Let it go and it floats free and does what its supposed to do.
Healthcare, cap and trade, card check, raising taxes especially on capital are all things businesses are terrified of. Businesses are sitting on nearly 2 trillion dollars of cash. There's a reason for that. That money isn't earning a dime in the bank with interest rates near zero so you'd think deploying would make sense, but they're afraid.
The best thing that could happen to Obama is if conservatives get elected in the fall. They could kill off his bad ideas and work with him on the good ones. Its possible that an Obama / Republican Congress would be as effective as a Clinton / Republican Congress.
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| | | 217 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 09:04
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Small businesses aren't hiring not because they are all terrified of Obama.
They aren't hiring because there is little demand for their products.
When incomes and employment are down, people don't have money to buy stuff.
We need a job bill to juice demand and get people to work. That and build infrastructure such as a better electrical grid that will sustain growth in innovative power sources going forward.
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| | | 218 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 10:02
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"Squeeze a balloon and it pops. Let it go and it floats free and does what its supposed to do."
Your theory is put to the sword by the previous administration, which let the balloon sail free -- and, lest you forget, got us into this mess in the first place.
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| | | 219 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 11:03
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Because small businesses are not hiring the policies of the Obama Administration are failing miserably. The stimulus was supposed to keep unemployment at 8%. Obama thinks that he can help small business with more regulation and rules. That's not true. Squeeze a balloon and it pops. Let it go and it floats free and does what its supposed to do.
Let's unpack this, shall we?
Because small businesses are not hiring the policies of the Obama Administration are failing miserably.
The policies of the Administration are intended to stop the bleeding of this recession. The administration has specifically slashed small business taxes, given tax credits to small business for new hires, laid out billions in stimulus money targeted for small business use, and in virtually every piece of legislation they have given breaks to small businesses.
Small businesses, like other businesses, are not hiring because we're in a freaking recession. It has nothing to do with the efforts being made to help them despite the recession.
The stimulus was supposed to keep unemployment at 8%.
The stimulus, passed despite universal GOP resistance, saved about 1.2 million jobs. That's a fact the conservative media likes to ignore, but it is a fact nevertheless. As we muddle through this economic downturn, keep in mind that the unemployment numbers would be much worse if not for the stimulus money. And that would hurt down the line.
The question is: Did the stimulus help or hurt? There is no real question that the stimulus helped keep unemployment from rising even higher.
Obama thinks that he can help small business with more regulation and rules. That's not true. Squeeze a balloon and it pops. Let it go and it floats free and does what its supposed to do.
Nearly all the regulatory schemes being proposed by the Administration is directed at large businesses. They are intended to fill the gap of regulation after the last administration erased, or refused to enforce, regulations on large businesses across many fields.
Small businesses, in fact, are not only immune by statute from much of the regulation being proposed, they are getting tax breaks the large businesses are not getting as well.
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| | | 220 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:06
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#217: Government created jobs are temporary jobs. Goose up construction jobs and census hiring all you want but in the winter the construction guy sits at home and the census guy is done in three months.
The private sector is the better deployer of capital and can create permanent jobs. Obama blew the design of the stimulus package. He should've eliminated all taxes on capital instead.
219: We aren't in a recession anymore and haven't been in one for months. We have slow anemic GDP growth and zero job growth and it is because Obama messed up the stimulus package and because businesses are afraid of what comes next. Obama said it would stop unemployment at 8% and he failed miserably. So what if it saved 1.2 million jobs. It was supposed to CREATE jobs.
There is no way to say impartially that the stimulus package was successful as advertised. No way. At all. Not even close.
And when Obama passes regulations that impact large businesses it trickles down to the little guy. Who do you think the large businesses use as sources for parts and services? Or when they lay people off those people aren't buying anything from small businesses.
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| | | 221 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:19
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Don't hang your hat on the 1.2 million jobs "saved". Even if that number could be accurately proven out you've got an 800 billion dollar fiasco "saving" 1.2 million jobs. That's 667k per job. That's a little steep.
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| | | 222 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:24
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There is no way to say impartially that the stimulus package was successful as advertised. No way. At all. Not even close.
Impartially?
That sentence is destroyed by your Obama messed up the stimulus package and because businesses are afraid of what comes next,
which shows a complete lack of addressing the issue in an impartial manner. Not even close. I have pointed out that my small business, as well as numerous others in similar trades, have and are benefitting from the stimulus package. You've presented nothing except right wing radio talking points, but the reality is varied as to the benefits of the package. It's simply partisan politics to present only the negative aspects, which, admittedly there are many, and I have specifically pinpointed the problems in previous posts. Saying businesses are scared doesn't pinpoint anything.
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| | | 223 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:29
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Obama said unemployment wouldn't go over 8%. We're at 10%. It failed. It was a very straightforward numerical metric. Almost like a KPI.
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| | | 224 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:39
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Obama said unemployment wouldn't go over 8%. We're at 10%. It failed.
Obama's prediction was ludicrous, but that should not be the sole factor in determining the success of the stimulus. We could, instead, use the reports from economists showing that the stimulus did indeed save or create new jobs and softened what would have been an even worse recession.
$288 billion of the $787 price tag were tax cuts. Another $250 billion went to horrible things like healthcare and education. You should actually read what's in the stimulus bill before repeating right-wing talking points.
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| | | 225 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:41
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Obama said unemployment wouldn't go over 8%. We're at 10%. It failed
No offense, but in this forum your recollections aren't given creedence unless backed with actual data and quotes from reliable sources. Given the simplicity of searching the web, it will be easy for you to provide the quotes you're attributing to Obama in their complete context. Then you can discuss being straighforward with some credibility.
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| | | 226 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:44
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So what if I agree with the right? Are you prejudice against right wingers or something?
And yes when the guy who pushes the stimulus says that it'll do something majorly important and it fails miserably at it then yeah he ought to be held to the fire over it.
I don't care if they spent the stimulus on balloons and lollipops for children. Their design failed.
And at 667k per job "saved" somehow makes me think we could've just hired 8 million people at a total per person cost of 100k and just be done with it. Instead we got an 800 billion dollar boondoggle that has only just indebited us to the Chinese even more.
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| | | 227 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 14:03
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There is no way to say impartially that the stimulus package was successful as advertised.
First off, that isn't what I said. I said that the stimulus saved 1.2 million jobs. There is no real argument that the stimulus package saved jobs. The only real arguments being made are:
1. That the numbers of jobs saved wasn't worth the cost;
2. That the Administration's projects of the number of jobs saved/unemployment rate amount doesn't match what was projected in 2008.
Regarding the first, since nearly a third of the stimulus package (including its cost) was in tax cuts, if we are to declare it uneffective then we must also declare the "tax cuts = economic stimulation" model to be ineffective. Anyone on the Right willing to go there? I thought not.
The second point is one of those "does/doesn't match anticipated numbers" which, frankly, is even more removed from good economic analysis, IMO. I'm far more interested in whether the thing is working or not than whether people feel now that it was oversold then and therefore feel disappointment.
And when Obama passes regulations that impact large businesses it trickles down to the little guy.
I'm glad you are backing away from that "Obama is hurting small businesses" canard, since it simply isn't true. I won't deny that there are trickle down effects, but you haven't given any examples of new Obama regulations which negatively impact small business stakeholders, and which have their benefits outweighed by such impacts.
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| | | 228 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 15:46
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I'm not backing away from anything Perm Dude.
The stimulus package failed. I'm glad we agree.
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| | | 229 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 15:50
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How do you justify spending 667k per "saved" job?
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| | | 230 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 15:52
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On what, exactly, do we agree?
The only thing you've mentioned is that the stimulus package did not reach a goal of 8% unemployment which was put forth by two private economists.
Putting aside the fact that the two economists in question were not in the Administration when that paper came out (and projected 8.8% unemployment, not 8%, in the 4th quarter of 2010, a point in time which has yet to occur), you haven't rebutted any of the many points I've made about Obama's small business policies. You have, however, tried to change the target to large business policies, stating some kind of trickle down effect to prove your point.
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| | | 231 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:04
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Wait a minute, I want to make sure I have this straight before I heap ridicule. Are you saying the "8%" number being thrown around by Left Behind was:
A) Not suggested by the actual administration; B) For a time period that hasn't even begun yet, and; C) Not actually 8%, but 8.8%, to start with?
If this is correct, then I take back anything I said about wanting facts and evidence to support claims. If we're just going to be making stuff up as we go, may as well just not bother faking it.
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| | | 232 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:13
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To be fair, DW, those two economists were later hired by the Administration. ASAIK (and I'm welcoming a correction here), the Administration itself never projected particular unemployment rate targets. It would be silly to have done so, given the vagaries of that rate as a economic tool. It is like comparing a thermometer with and MRI.
I had a link to a pdf of that paper somewhere I will try to dig out.
My point, in case it wasn't clear, is that the important question as to whether the stimulus is working is not whether the unemployment rate reached this particular target, but whether it kept people in jobs and spending money.
Remember: The stimulus program was designed to get money flowing again, after an extreme credit crunch by banks who suddenly stopped giving loans.
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| | | 233 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:23
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fair enough. However, as the old saying goes, two out of three ain't bad (except in this case it really is).
Even if we go pretty far and say they are "the administrations" numbers for the reason you state, fundamentally lying (or, charitably, "misunderstanding") about what the projections WERE is kinda sleazy at best. It's just wrong.
It's one thing to get a future projection wrong by 10%--happens all the time. It's quite another to read the piece of paper that says "the projection is X" and to say "the projection is Y". It's also quite remarkably dishonest to say "the projection is wrong" when the time period of the projection hasn't even happened yet.
I'll charitably assume that Rush Limbaugh or Fox News "accidentally" got it wrong and the "accidental errors" propagated into that post, I guess.
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| | | 234 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:25
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Remember: The stimulus program was designed to get money flowing again, after an extreme credit crunch by banks who suddenly stopped giving loans.
It was? If so it failed completely.
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| | | 235 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:27
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"My point, in case it wasn't clear, is that the important question as to whether the stimulus is working is not whether the unemployment rate reached this particular target, but whether it kept people in jobs and spending money."
To be semi-fair, the point (if it were honestly made) that the projection was that the stimulus would reduce unemployment by X amount, and the stimulus actually didn't do that, would call into question either the full effect of the stimulus, or the estimation of the starting point, or both.
Given that unemployment numbers aren't exactly reliable in "real time" and aren't finalized until months after the fact, it's easy to see how the latter would happen.
It's also easy to see how the starting point of the projection (which, obviously, was made BEFORE the stimulus took effect) ended up being inaccurate because Bush and his economic policies ran the country into an even bigger crap hole than could be projected at the time.
I'd love to debate the relevance of those, but I don't know if it'll do any good without a time machine to know whether the incorrect future projections are actually incorrect.
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| | | 236 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:31
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"Remember: The stimulus program was designed to get money flowing again, after an extreme credit crunch by banks who suddenly stopped giving loans.
It was? If so it failed completely."
1. Uh, no, not completely.
2. The fact that it has failed incompletely (if one measures failure by "things aren't as hunky-dory as they used to be") is down in large measure to the fact that the banks and the economy were in even crappier shape than was estimated. Even AFTER the stimulus, many of the banks were still skating on fairly thin ice. A lot of the larger commercial real estate loans (with rather longer gestation periods of going to hell in a handbasket) hadn't even really hit the banks yet.
It's fundamentally wrong to compare the post stimulus economy to a "healthy" economy. It's like comparing a cancer patient with chemotherapy to a completely cancer-free patient and saying "oh, the chemo is worthless". Try comparing the post-stimulus economy to where things would have been without it. The patient already contracted cancer.
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| | | 237 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:34
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Completely, boikin? All measurements I've seen (and, again, I'm welcoming correction) is that the numbers across the board look better for the stimulus having been passed than without it. Number of jobs, loans, etc etc all look better.
This doesn't change the fact that the stimulus is, and was, incredibly unpopular. But it has done what it set out to do. And it continues to do so. Hundreds of thousands of families are working jobs right now that they otherwise would not have.
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| | | 238 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 546172318 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 19:23
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Stimulus Facts - Mercatus Center - Veronique de Rugy
Stimulus Facts Period 2 (April 7, 2010)
Party Affiliation
For my analysis, I looked at the 435 congressional districts in the United States plus the District of Columbia, but excluded Puerto Rico and foreign stimulus recipients such as Canada and the U.S. Virgin Islands. The average number of awards per district is 148, and the average dollar amount awarded per district is $385,932,979.
In the United States there are 177 districts represented by a Republican and 259 represented by a Democrat. On average, Democratic districts received 1.53 times the amount of awards that Republicans were granted. The average number of awards per Republican district is 112, while the average number of awards per Democratic district is 171.
Democratic districts also received 2.65 times the amount of stimulus dollars that Republican districts received $122 billion vs. $46 billion). Republican districts also received smaller awards on average. The average dollars awarded per Republican district is $26 million, while the average dollars awarded per Democratic district is about $472 million. In total, Democratic districts received 73 percent of the total stimulus funds awarded and Republican districts received 27 percent of the total amount awarded.
Other Political Variables
Regression analysis (ordinary least squares) was used to explore the predictive power of the various indicators described in the section above. The political variables considered here included the district representative‘s political party, tenure in office, leadership position, membership on the appropriations committee, and voting in the most recent presidential elections, as well as the inclusion of the state‘s capital within that district. The analysis finds that a district‘s representation by a Republican decreases the stimulus funds awarded to it by 27.9 percent. This result underscores the findings from the previous Stimulus Facts report.
This effect is statistically significant at the p < .015 level (see table 1). The regression analysis does not seek to explain (nor does it explain) precisely how funds were allocated (adjusted R2 = .400). That would require a more complete dataset than has been used for these results or is available through Recovery.gov. That is, I wanted to know how much political and economic factors could explain the distribution of funds. That is different from saying I want to know all of the factors that control the spending of the funds. I do not have that data nor is it particularly interesting for this purpose. I have confidence that these estimates of the selected indicators are robust, although I do not know how other, yet unknown, indicators may have influenced stimulus funding decisions. The political calculation shows that there is no statistically significant effect of a district‘s voting outcome in the 2008 presidential elections.
Concretely, while $109 billion has been awarded to congressional districts that voted for President Obama (or 65 percent of the total amount allocated), $59 billion (or 35 percent) have been allocated to congressional districts that voted for McCain. It should be noted, however, that there were many more congressional districts that voted for Obama than voted for McCain. President Obama won 55.6 percent of congressional districts and McCain won 44.4 percent of these districts.
The districts that voted for President Obama received 40,037 awards (or 69 percent of the total number of awards allocated), much more than the districts that voted for candidate McCain; they received 24,483 awards (or 31 percent of the total number of awards).
The average awarded to marginal districts—districts with votes that did not vote overwhelmingly for one candidate or another (5 percent or less difference)—is $22 million. That‘s significantly less than the average awarded to non-marginal districts of $419 million.
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| | | 239 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 20:55
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Given that the stimulus awards are geared toward construction projects, it should be no surprise that the cities (which are skewed highly toward Dems) get more money. Not many rural districts have subways to upgrade, for instance.
On the other hand, cities pay far more in taxes than their rural counterparts, to the point where "red states" get a lot more money back per tax dollar than "blue states." so maybe this is finally a way for cities to get some of their tax dollars back that otherwise might have gone to some farm subsidy. Or GW Bush Library. Or a bridge to nowhere.
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| | | 240 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 546172318 Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 05:52
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My hope is that Obama isn't copycatting FDR's 1936 campaign: doling out most of the Federal Funds to districts that will help re-elect him rather than fully aiding a recovery in all districts.
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| | | 241 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 12:44
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One problem (among many) for many of these "red" districts is that their governors are being very choosy in what funds they will take. Some of them are publicly claiming they don't want any stimulus funding at all (while quietly taking millions in stimulus funds to balance their budgets).
Unfortunately, the filtering that goes on at the state level just puts up another barrier between the funding and the projects. A rural district with bridges to fix and construction workers idle have a harder time of it because of the political games the GOP is playing.
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| | | 242 | Boldwin
ID: 1646258 Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 09:46
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#240 Mclean
He's an Illinois politician. They don't call it machine politics for nothin'.
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| | | 243 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 11:59
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When did advancing stereotypes as sufficient evidence of corruption in lieu of any relevent facts become the right's MO? Didn't used to be the case, I don't think.
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| | | 244 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 17:48
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just curious...what does all of this have to do with the Deepwater Explosion? lol
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| | | 247 | Boldwin
ID: 1183027 Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 11:46
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Yup
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| | | 248 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 11:59
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Glad nearly all of them appear to be safe.
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| | | 251 | Boldwin
ID: 79481219 Tue, Oct 12, 2010, 20:48
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I wonder if they will reimpose them after the election?
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| | | 252 | Boldwin
ID: 211053178 Wed, Nov 17, 2010, 16:10
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To the great disappointment of the MSM...things are going swimmingly.
Not that you'll see this story anywhere ahead of page 19.
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| | | 253 | Boldwin
ID: 211053178 Wed, Nov 17, 2010, 16:14
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“A few days have gone by since all these reports and I’m shocked, shocked that the story hasn’t been reported in the big national media. If I didn’t know better, I’d think they have an agenda or something.” - LOU DOLINAR to Instapundit
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