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| Posted by: Boldwin
- [564353010] Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 11:38
Britain's experience presages our own coming loss of class mobility, hope and opportunity. |
| | | 1 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 12:26
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While agree there is a problem, I would have a different title.
"get an education, or you will be competing with 3 billion other people with arms and legs."
this is a fundemental failure of capitalism, not the welfare state.
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| | | 2 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 16:36
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I think you missed the point of the article it is not that people are not competitive but that they don't want to compete. I also do not think that this story is not very generalizable to the US, since unlike the UK the most competitive people can not easily move to Canada or Australia for a different life.
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| | | 3 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 17:26
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I got the point, I simply disagree with it.
welfare emeliorates the side effects of the harsh realities of capitalism; that not everyone is competitive within the capitalist structure. If done well, it is not a primary cause of a persons inability to thrive.
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| | | 4 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 17:44
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"welfare emeliorates the side effects of the harsh realities of capitalism; that not everyone is competitive within the capitalist structure. If done well, it is not a primary cause of a persons inability to thrive. "
Right so you do nothing and go sit at the Pub sounds like you agree with the article.
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| | | 5 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 18:26
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I would have a different title.
Yeah, like the "Welfare State Destroys Work Ethic For Those Without Motivation To Succeed."
I don't know where the destruction of hope and freedom comes in except to overly dramatize and play on emotions, which is typical of the current crop of Glenn Beck fans.
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| | | 6 | Boldwin
ID: 564353010 Fri, Jun 04, 2010, 02:52
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It is just amazing that anyone could believe an entire generation of Britains would rather sit in pubs than accept jobs. The jobs aren't there. The opportunity to thrive has been stolen to pay for socialist overpromises.
When you run out of OPM, other people's money, other people don't have jobs to offer.
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| | | 7 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, Jun 04, 2010, 10:42
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It is just amazing that anyone could believe an entire generation of Britains would rather sit in pubs than accept jobs.
An entire generation of Britains? The link in the original post doesn't support such drama queen rhetoric.
In Britain today white, working-class children now seem to do worse in school than immigrants. A 2003 Home Office study found white men more likely to admit breaking the law than racial minorities; they are also more likely to take dangerous drugs.
Over the past decade, job gains in Britain, like those in the United States, have been concentrated at the top and bottom of the wage profile. The growth in real earnings for blue-collar professions--industry, warehousing and construction--have generally lagged those of white-collar workers.
So, immigrants are motivated to do well in school, and are willing to accept jobs at the bottom of the wage profile. Some white Britons(obviously not an entire generation), would rather sluff school and do drugs, apparently feeling that they should be entitled to some type of employment situation based on the fact that they're white, working-class children. When these jobs go to motivated immigrants, the welfare state robs these Brits of the motivation to accept jobs below their parents' wage scale, because it's a lot easier to sit in a pub complaining while drinking on the publics' dime than to go pound the streets looking for a gig washing dishes or cleaning toilets.
This is the main problem I see with the welfare state. What was originally designed as a safety net has become a permanent lifestyle. It used to be that during the tough economic times, people would do whatever was necessary to eat and shelter themselves. My parents' "greatest generation" had to endure the Great Depression of the 1930s without the benefit of the state providing for them. The good news is that they developed a work ethic as opposed to today's entitlement ethic. I never understood that when I was younger. In 1995, my daughter was born a month after I had been laid off from Major Networks. I went from a suit and tie executive making 70 grand a year to a prep cook at the Galaxy Diner making $6.25 an hour. When the state started taking half my wages to pay for my daughter's birth, I took a second job with a catering company. I was willing to work hard and basically start from scratch in my 40s because I was motivated to do so.
So, I don't buy the Welfare State Destroys Hope and Freedom line, or the opportunity to thrive has been stolen to pay for socialist overpromises. It's entirely possible to thrive if you're willing to do what's necessary. If you have no hope you can accomplish that, it's a personal problem, although the problem stems from the government making it all too easy to get by not working.
When you run out of OPM, other people's money, other people don't have jobs to offer.
I agree with that sentiment even in it's simplicity that ignores the complexities of cyclical economics that determines wages, tax structures and employment opportunities.
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| | | 8 | Boldwin
ID: 564353010 Fri, Jun 04, 2010, 10:57
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To ascribe this phenomenon to lack of ambition just smacks of 'blame the victim'.
The engine of capitalism is risk capital and when the state takes the lion's share of the capital and shovels it out the door to those who didn't earn it, where does the risk capital come from to create the next new business and the next job? It steals the hope and opportunity of everyone up and down the economic spectrum.
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| | | 9 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, Jun 04, 2010, 12:04
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To ascribe this phenomenon to lack of ambition just smacks of 'blame the victim'.
What "victim?"
You have the freedom to whine about not having any hope, and I have the freedom to have hope because 15 years ago I was making $6.25 an hour and now I have my own business making $70,000 a year, and 3 of the past 10 years made 6 figures.
I have the freedom to spend my afternoons on the golf course hoping I don't hit one of the Mexicans mowing fairways or raking bunkers. Are these the "victims" you're accusing me of blaming?
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| | | 10 | Boldwin
ID: 564353010 Fri, Jun 04, 2010, 17:30
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Some white Britons(obviously not an entire generation), would rather sluff school and do drugs - PV
No, the error is not in the character of these victims of socialism, but rather in socialism which has sucked the opportunity from that country.
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| | | 11 | Seattle Zen
ID: 1410391215 Fri, Jun 04, 2010, 17:39
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What a load. Does anyone really believe that there was a time where there was no subset of any culture that would "rather sluff school and do drugs" or play cards or fill in the blank?
Regardless of potential rewards, there will always be a group of people who will not "strive for success" in a way that the editorial board of the WSJ would define it.
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| | | 12 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Mon, Feb 20, 2012, 19:28
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The American economy will not only need to create new jobs, it will need to create new kinds of jobs and new relationships between workers and employers as we work to build the next version of the American dream.
In the 19th century, government promoted the rise of the family farm, selling cheaply and ultimately giving away millions of acres of farmland, and promoting the rise of railroads
In the 20th century the government promoted the rise of large, stable corporate employers that offered armies of white and blue collar employees lifetime employment and a bevy of benefits.
Those 20th century policies won’t produce the same results in the new era. In many ways, the old jobs policies will now get in the way. The new economy needs a different framework to encourage new kinds of jobs and new industries; the faster we get to these the faster we will emerge from the death throes of the blue model into a new and much brighter world.
Manufacturing may well come back to the United States to some degree, but it will be capital intensive, automated manufacturing. Armies of blue collar assembly line workers won’t be making middle class livelihoods from unskilled factory work.
Lifetime employment will continue to go the way of the dodo. So will many of the aspects of the employment relationship that went with that. Defined benefit pension programs are already pretty much toast; so too is the implied social contract that the employer, like a feudal lord, would provide lifetime protection and security so long as the employee, like a good and faithful serf, provided labor and loyalty.
Those who still have something close to lifetime employment – tenured professors and teachers, civil servants and other government employees, postal service workers – feel the unwelcome winds of change. Many who now have these benefits will likely lose them; such jobs will be much more rare and much harder to come by for new generations of workers.
We don’t now know exactly what new services, new organizations, new products and even new professions will characterize the unprecedented information-rich economy that is beginning to rise around us. Nothing like this has ever been seen before, and it is impossible to plan for a future shaped by so many disruptive technologies all coming on line in such quick succession.
In our times, the advantages of unplanned capitalist innovation and competition are even more valuable than usual. We need an era of social and business experimentation. Many of the bright young people who a generation ago would have gone to work for large corporations or law firms, or moved into tenure track academic positions, need to find new ways of making a living. The young people who would have gone into factory jobs or routine but secure clerical positions must also find new ways of using their skills and talents. The terrain is uncharted; the old systems don’t work.
Government needs to clear unnecessary obstacles out of the paths of the pioneers of the new economy. The single most effective way the government can support the necessary change is to adapt its regulatory and employment policies to the needs of the start ups from whose ranks the leaders of the future will emerge. That is not the only type of change that would help, but it is the most important one.
The jobs of the future will not all come from start-ups and small business, but a very large proportion of them will. The best industrial policy we can have now is a policy that supports the rise of new information and service based enterprises. Small business and other, innovative forms of creative association (like co-ops and partnerships) will be a key engine of growth growing forward. - Via Meadia Read the whole thing and see why current government blocks future success.
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| | | 19 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Wed, Apr 15, 2015, 19:57
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Survival, Going GaltThe United States of America is now bankrupt. It doesn't matter which political party will be in power over the next decades, the over-hang of $100 Trillion in unfunded liabilities from the local to Federal level, plus a hollow banking system, means there is no way to tax ourselves enough, or even cut spending enough, to have any chance to grow our way out of our problems.
What this means is that the productive elements of society will at some point go on strike, whether by choice or because they are forced to pack up their bags and hide. ~~~ But how does one survive if one drops out of society, even for a short period? It isn't like you were taught this in high school. And living like a hermit in a cave isn't an option that would appeal to thinking humans. However, "Going Galt" isn't about dropping out of society, but how to harden and insulate your lifestyle from the chaos that will come as the welfare state collapses.
The Federal Government only takes in 60% in revenues of what it spends, the difference being made up by the Federal Reserve printing Monopoly money. This distortion has already shown up in high inflation rates and unemployment, with statistics so bad the government lies about them. You have no choice but to plan an exit strategy.
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| | | 20 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 16, 2015, 10:30
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My exit strategy is to die before the total collapse.
Inflation is taxation on savers by the way. Though nobody likes to talk about it. Inflating our way out of our debts is a viable option, though most find it distasteful.
If you see a national strategy of inflation on the horizon, best to invest in real estate or valuable commodities with your life savings (for the real alarmists rice and dried beans works too, though long term good farm land is better).
Most people seem to lose sight of the fact that their dollars are just a number that accountants are keeping score with. It takes so much more to make a viable nation.
Defense, a justice system and law enforcement are top on the list, and we are strong on all three counts though some would quibble about that. So quit fear mongering please, it does nobody any good. Better to spend your time in preserving your nest egg than planning your next meal to come from scavenging bird nests in a tree in the forest.
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| | | 21 | biliruben
ID: 229341622 Thu, Apr 16, 2015, 13:13
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Withholding the services of house flipping and slumlording from the seething, taking masses. Such a terrific loss for mankind.
If the apocalypse you fetishise and fantasize about constantly does come about, then you likely won't last a week without your heart meds.
Revolution is for the young.
And so, btw, is simplistic Randian nonsense. I loved this shit was a was 14. Then I grew up.
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| | | 22 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 16, 2015, 18:20
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I be hoarding heart meds for years. You didn't think I trusted a bankrupt government to keep handing them out did you?
I don't spose they'll let me bring them with me tho.
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| | | 24 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 10:28
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you know, the largest recipient demographic of "welfare handouts", is white Republicans....right? I mean, you DO know this, dont you?
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| | | 25 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 13:29
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Please stop.
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| | | 26 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 14:22
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The poor still exist. So the War on Poverty must be a complete and utter failure.
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| | | 27 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 14:22
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One could say the same of Christianity.
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| | | 28 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 16:12
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Biliruben-I have often seen some believe the cure for poverty is a college education. This is the same philosophy used by Cuba, There are x amount of jobs and just because more people qualify for those jobs it does not increase the amount of jobs.Your idea would just switch who is impoverished. When the economy collapsed and unemployment skyrocketed the amount of college educated people did not change.
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| | | 30 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 17:10
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After a health scare I was unable to work. I took a few online classes at the local public college for something to do. While some professors are great and deserve whatever they are getting paid plus. There are some that are true imbeciles and psychopaths. If you point out that a professor is not up to par they will find a reason to put you up before a disciplinary board. The academia are a scary bunch if you even remotely disagree with them, they will swarm on you like bees. Some of the worse experiences in my life is now dealing with the moronic academia.
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| | | 31 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 17:21
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<28>College Education does not equal employability UNLESS you get a degree in a technical field that is in demand. High School Counselors owe that information to students, even as they are choosing trades vs college prep coursework in Secondary Education.
What this country owes its youth is a plan to get the most good paying jobs as possible to land HERE in this country, whatever they may be. Then this country owes it to the these future employees, the training required to do these jobs.
When are people going to learn that an arts degree is just a piece of paper with little value in the workplace? Best leave the arts education to PBS, where people can choose to watch it or not.
That said, if everyone gets a technical degree, then there will be a surplus of people with those degrees, and there will not be enough jobs for them to fill. So even technical degrees of the wrong kind are useless. Nobody can predict the needs of the future with any certainty, the best that can be achieved with the slowly changing public higher education system, is a high likelihood for employment options. Arts degrees at publicly funded schools should be eliminated because they have little chance of enhancing employment opportunities. Best to leave the arts for the wealthy and scholarship worthy talented.
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| | | 32 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 17:59
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Bean, all the emphasis on education, simply replaces one person from a job with another. The only way to lower the poverty rate is to improve the economy and the best was to improve the economy is increase business and consumer confidence. The only true power the President has on the economy is the ability to inspire confidence in people with capital.
After some reflection on my earlier post. It was not the imbeciles that cause me the most grief. It was their calculating psychopathic superiors. These people were not imbeciles, rather very adept at using threats to silence any free speech about the simpleton instructors. I was threaten to be tagged a racist on my permanent record for writing "Fasten your seat belts BOYS and girls." Public colleges can not be sued so they have carte blanche to abuse anyone with an independent mind. Boldwin, I wrote 7 pages on this ordeal if you would like to read it.
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| | | 33 | biliruben
ID: 28420307 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 18:53
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People still believe in the confidence fairy?
I guess blaming imaginary things for your life's misfortunes is a small step better than blaming community college administrators.
What ever happened to personal responsibility? There are consequences for being a jerk in every walk of life.
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| | | 34 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 19:00
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Sure, Gator. Sounds familiar.
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| | | 35 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 19:35
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So without knowing any of the circumstances you immediately assume it is my fault and not the academia.The difference between you and the administrators is they knew the instructors were incompetent but were looking out after their own and the students be damn.There are incompetent employees in any workplace. Why should teachers be any different? Biliruben, Your automatic defense for one of your own just emphasises my point of the unfair treatment students will receive unless they convert to socialism. You could be the poster boy for what is wrong with public colleges.
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| | | 36 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 19:47
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BTW, I had perfect scores in 10 classes easily receiving A's.
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| | | 37 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 19:55
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I intentionally left off the specifics in my case knowing that the liberals on this forum would immediately come to the defense of the academia without having any facts. Thank you, Biliruben, for illustrating my point so well. And to the future posters, who will demonstrate their own obvious bias.
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| | | 38 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 19:59
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It has been over an hour and my posts have not been deleted. Seattle Zen must not be home yet.
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| | | 39 | biliruben
ID: 105572020 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 23:25
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I'm taking a tax course at a community college right now. The lecturer is very conservative, I agree with almost nothing he says, but I'm learning a lot and we get along fine.
But I'm careful with my words. You have demonstrated quite thoroughly here that you are incapable of that.
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| | | 40 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 23:50
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<32> Gator, first welcome back, and second, I have to disagree with you slightly. Any mature adult knows that a selection criteria exclusively bound to educational credentials will not give you the best candidates for advancement in our society.
However, it can effectively be used as a minimum standard for fast tracking the nation's most talented. On the job performance is the best indicator, and most successful companies will use profiles to select their "chosen" when dealing with large numbers of employees.
More often than not, nepotism will raise its ugly head first in the workplace, long before educational qualifications. SO, what's a poor guy with no influence to do?
Get an education, that's all you got son....and dont waste your time or money or tax payer money either on some stupid BA degree that only gives you joy.
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| | | 41 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 00:43
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Really Biliruben. I mention I had a bad experience with an instructor and you were one to immediately attack with no facts. I knew you would blindly support the academia and students suffer because of this type of reaction. I did not get in a verbal argument with the instructors. They were not teaching a curriculum relative to the class I enrolled for.I did not take the classes for points toward a degree. I wanted to learn the subject. I talked to the chairs and for that I was attacked just like you attacked when I mentioned teachers can be as incompetent as anyone else. They are human.One instructor I suspect one was going senile and the other suffered from the Kruger-Dunning effect. I spent a $1000 to learn a subject and have the right to ask that the subject be taught properly without being threatened.
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| | | 42 | biliruben
ID: 28420307 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 00:50
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You will go far.
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| | | 43 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 01:02
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Not everyone who experiences a mugging by reality learns the proper lesson.
For some people the lesson they take away from it is that if you join the muggers you will go far.
And mugging victims are funny, all bleeding and wounded. You can make a joke about it and avoid looking at the hole in your soul.
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| | | 44 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 01:18
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As if you are any danger of retaliation from the conservative instructor, bili. As if.
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| | | 45 | biliruben
ID: 28420307 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 07:37
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If I attacked his livelihood by going over his head and trying to get him fired, because he blathers on about the glories of Reagan, supply side economics, religion, as if it's truth instead of (wrong) opinion, you think he wouldn't come after me?
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| | | 46 | biliruben
ID: 81382416 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 10:57
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Gator - many instructors (including my tax dude), are actually looking for animated discussion. They get off on that, and it makes the class interesting. If you addressed your concerns with them first, either by refuting their points in class or discussing with them privately, instead of trying to get them fired, I'm guessing things might have turned out more satisfactorily for all involved.
These instructors don't make a ton of jack. My Mom taught at a community college for a while, so I know.
They often do it because they enjoy teaching.
I wasn't defending the instructors above, I was attacking you, and what I perceived as you handling the situation badly, given my past experiences with you on the board. You verified all of that.
I have no idea if your instructors were poor or not. I'm guessing you don't have the capacity to judge them either.
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| | | 47 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 11:24
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<41> If you learned the previously unknown lesson of "you can't fight city hall", then maybe the course was worth the tuition, even if it did not achieve its stated intent properly.
It took me a very long time to understand that being right may not be as beneficial as being patient. The rebel, and the critic can achieve glory, if only in their own mind, by speaking their mind. They do run the risk of becoming "holier than thou", however, and wont get invited to the ball as a result.
If the shoe fits Cinderella....
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| | | 48 | Tree
ID: 161036918 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 14:21
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knowing that the liberals on this forum would immediately come to the defense of the academia
speaking as someone you'd consider a liberal, and as someone with a college degree he no longer uses, and as someone who worked in higher education in a non-academic position, i see no reason to defend academia, other than believing a successful student academic can, at the very least, alter the course of one's life.
i don't use my degree, but i firmly believe most of the jobs i've had are, again, in part, due to my degree. it got my foot in the door, because, whether we like it or not, people do view you differently.
my girlfriend is very successful. she makes decent money, despite a lack of a college degree. but she no longer likes her job or the commute, and is terrified that her 12 years of experience will be trumped by the lack of degree.
most of one's academic experience as a student has VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH POLITICS. despite the conservative meme about academia being a liberal bastion (something you "proved", if a sample size of one (such as bili), can be proof, with your comments), the fact is, politics play very little.
when i was in college, i knew very little about politics. hell, as a freshman, i voted for Bush the Elder, because, he was from Texas, and i was going to UT, and it seemed like the thing to do.
most other college students are the same. not all, but as teenagers, we're still forming our political opinions.
it's convenient to blame someone else (a professor, for example), without excepting personal culpability. i have no idea if that's the case here or not, but when one is quick to blame another, well, the other side of the coin often balances it out.
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| | | 49 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 19:10
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Biliruben, I wished the teachers engaged me in friendly debate. In fact, I wrote an essay titled 'Debate Me' and it was turned down for tone. I had 3 essays turned down for tone, I finally had to do an essay on my cat in order to get an essay passed. Anyone with an IQ over 80 has the capacity to judge this instructor. Just about everything she said was wrong.I am not using hyperbole, this women was a true imbecile and a compulsive liar.She told the class she worked for casinos and bought million dollar inventory. I googled her and she was a middle manager at a drugstore.I could type 50 errors she made and lies she told, but the posters here would just deny them with no knowledge of the facts. It is not about politics. She was a liberal but just as easily could have been far right. She was so right side brain dominate that the logic part of her brain had become almost inactive. This discussion has proven that academia is consider part of the liberal left, which is why the left leaning posters automatically supported the teachers with no facts.I noticed Baldwin and Bean did not jump to their support.I have had some great professors, one that went above and beyond his duties to help his students with algebra and another who he and I had some great intellectual debates about the Crusades. This does not mean all teachers are perfect or become teachers for the right reason.Where else could an imbecile and a senile person work with no chance of being fired.
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| | | 50 | biliruben
ID: 81382416 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 19:36
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Yes, there are bad teachers out there, just like any profession.
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| | | 51 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 19:55
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Good to see you admit that. It was only point I was trying to make. What should be done about bad teachers so not to further hurt students?
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| | | 52 | biliruben
ID: 28420307 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 21:53
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Fire them.
But not on the word of a student with a grudge.
Most any institution of learning has a process for removing bad teachers. Admittedly, sometimes it can take a while.
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| | | 53 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 21:53
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I noticed Baldwin and Bean did not jump to their support
Good luck with that, how quickly we can go from there is one bad apple to throwing the whole bunch out will truly surprise you though.
I might be able to tell a story about how some guy nearly got his ass kicked when he started bad mouthing teachers with blanket statements, in front of me and my elementary school teacher wife though.
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| | | 54 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 00:29
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I have a ton of respect for good teachers and believe they are underpaid. The problem here is the chair and the Dean knew these people were incompetent but did not bother to act.
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| | | 55 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 06:40
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I can tell you from personal experience that the great teachers are pretty rare. I can tell you from personal experience that there are at least as many toxic teachers as helpful ones.
I can tell you that 'the process of removing bad teachers' is more difficult and unlikely than removing a federal employee who watches porn six hours a day 'on the job'.
I can tell you that as soon as they circulated that meme that teachers were underpaid noble souls who had taken a cut in pay to become public servants making much less than their counterparts in the private sector...
...suddenly the teacher pension demands exploded and the nexus of powerful teacher unions and corrupt vote selling democRAT politicians destroyed their state's solvency.
I'll never forget the striking teachers marching for higher pay in the deepest darkest days of the 2008 depression.
Bless their little caring and sharing hearts.
Government is something we do together...darwinian deathmatch to determine the greediest machivelian rat race winner apparently.
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| | | 56 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 06:48
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And any time you hear that oleaginous Ann Richards voice telling you 'it's for the children', it's time to get your hand on your wallet and your back against the wall.
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| | | 57 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 07:30
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As I was saying, Gator. Good luck with that, how quickly we can go from there is one bad apple to throwing the whole bunch out will truly surprise you though.
Boldwin, exactly how much should a teacher (or any other person for that matter) be paid? I don't know what you do for a living, but maybe we should be questioning whether or not your wage should be reduced to minimum as well.
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| | | 58 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 08:44
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Exactly. Pay them well, hold them accountable, and better ones will come and stick with it.
It is a simple lesson of capitalism that the Right seems to ignore whenever we are talking about tax dollars as the source of the pay. But capitalism doesn't care where the dollars come from.
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| | | 59 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 08:56
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Yeah, when we actually have open competition between public and private education. When bad teachers actually are identified and fired. THEN you can talk about capitalist lessons.
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| | | 60 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 08:57
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And when we have voucher systems in place to allow poor kids to escape the soul sucking miasma that is public education, THEN you can talk about the poor whom you claim to care about.
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| | | 61 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:18
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Bean
Less than they make in Illinois - "With two or three pensions, some are making as much as half a million dollars [yearly - B] in retirement pay". - Said the new republican governor of a blue state to get elected.
B - They not only cycle thru three tours to get three pensions, administrators also pad the last five years salary which blows up their pension benefits.
Teachers actually collect pensions. Workers in the private sector are routinely cheated out of their pensions an outrageous percentage of the time.
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| | | 62 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:19
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Just for fun take a look at cost of living vs teacher wages state by state.
It was while my wife was on strike in Hawaii that some idiot thought it would be appropriate to mouth off about teachers. I let him run his mouth for awhile then pointed out to him that my wife was a teacher and that perhaps he should slow his roll on BS generalities.
He then decided it would be a good idea to throw insults at my wife whom he had just met. Things did not end well for him, as he found himself apologizing with his face planted in the bar. Its unfortunate that so many people feel its acceptable to disrespect our mostly female self-sacrificing teachers.
His problems were no doubt rooted in his own childhood difficulties with authority figures, particularly a teacher. Couple that with the fact that his inability to properly raise his children resulted in one with behavior problems in school that in-turn resulted in poor performance. It had to be the faceless teacher's fault, right?
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| | | 63 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:30
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It isn't about "open competition between public and private education." It is about not intentionally being stupid about squelching pay and benefits for public school teachers and then being surprised (surprised!) at the lower quality work, as though the rules of capitalism are suspended for public workers.
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| | | 64 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:37
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Bean
No, my problem with teachers is that they hold an invincible hand when negotiating with corrupt Illinois politicians and it has to stop. It's bankrupted my state. It's driving out any person or business who can find the exit from this failed state.
Thanks for the physical threat.
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| | | 65 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:39
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PD
Tell me how you reconcile...
1) "With two or three pensions, some are making as much as half a million dollars [yearly - B] in retirement pay".
2) intentionally being stupid about squelching pay and benefits
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| | | 66 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:45
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Teachers actually collect pensions. Workers in the private sector are routinely cheated out of their pensions an outrageous percentage of the time.
So, are you suggesting that we should not honor teachers' pensions? Since we were forced to move frequently, my wife only became eligible in one state, Colorado. The Pension system there is PERA, which replaces social security. So, are you saying that Colorado residents should vote to take away PERA from its residents? You want my military pension too? Be careful, I have been trained to shoot.
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| | | 67 | biliruben
ID: 28420307 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:46
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We've had open competition between public and private for many years. Private is more expensive with equal or worse outcomes.
Unless you get to cherry pick the smartest kids.
We'll be hearing about the Caddy driving welfare queens soon, I suppose.
Baldwin's life is one repeating meme from 50 years ago.
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| | | 68 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:48
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Just for fun take a look at cost of living vs teacher wages state by state. - Bean
I've read that the average family has lost $11,000 yearly income since Obama took office. Teachers are welcome to share our pain, thank you very much big government for all your 'help' and welcome to Obama's worker's paradise.
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| | | 69 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:50
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We've had open competition between public and private for many years - bili
We will when we get an honest voucher system and not before.
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| | | 70 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:54
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If you look at the chart I linked, you will see that Illinois is not the norm, nor is Hawaii. Our experiences are about as radically different as they can be when it comes to teacher compensation.
It's a local issue.
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| | | 71 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:54
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Oh and BTW, while we are on that subject, you can thank Obama for squandering trillions on his public sector union buddies to make sure they got spared the worst of the recession/depression while the rest of us absorbed all the pain.
I wonder what a true stimulus would have done to pull us out of the last 6.5 years.
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| | | 72 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:58
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Illinois is not the norm - Bean
Thank God you don't live in Illinois.
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| | | 73 | biliruben
ID: 81382416 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 10:10
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You don't have even the smallest clue what you are talking about. The Obama presidency marked the first where the public sector jobs continued to decline deep into a recession. Far after private sector was recovering, the public sector was and still is serving as a drag on our economy, because of lack of jobs and adequate funding.
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| | | 74 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 10:13
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are you suggesting...? - Bean
I'm suggesting that FDR was right. Public sector unions are a ludicrous government conflict of interest and should never have been legalized.
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| | | 75 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 10:32
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You don't have even the smallest clue what you are talking about.
80% went to preserve public sector union jobs. The union dues were then recycled to get more tax dollars from the next election cycle syphoned off to the Dem party machine.
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| | | 76 | biliruben
ID: 561162511 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 13:29
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Look very, very carefully at posts 242 and 243.
http://rotoguru1.com/cgi-bin/read.pl?board=pol&thread=3688#1429804340
Then say, "D'oh!"
And perhaps, "sorry" for being duped by spiniots and wasting my time.
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| | | 77 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 14:57
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I am pretty sure we would all agree that there comes a point where the people must rise up against their tyrannical rulers. The question is when is it appropriate, and when, after organizing, have the people now become the tyrants.
When you figure that out, we'd love to know the answer. So please do share with us your plan for eliminating the need to resolve these two diametrically opposed values with one all encompassing stratagem. Until you illuminate all of us, we'll just have to respect that everyone has the right to defend their economic "rights".
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| | | 78 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 15:27
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I guess we'll all achieve equality when the entire system crashes. I guess that's what the 'progressive' thot leaders are actually aiming for. Your side has it all figured out, Bean. Not to worry. No need to worry how we'll ever pay those pensions. We won't.
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| | | 79 | biliruben
ID: 561162511 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 15:41
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I agree, a number of states are not adequately funding pensions. The solution is pretty clear. Regulate and insist the states fully fund pensions.
Washington is fully funded, and actually has been moving towards 403Bs for most of the state jobs. It's pretty hard to get any sort of defined benefit plan anymore.
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| | | 80 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:29
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<78> You get to the root of the matter when you realize that nobody knows what a dollar is worth, both today and in the future and nobody knows what an hour of labor is worth for every task either.
That is the argument for capitalism, we can not settle this between us, so let the market determine it. Broken down in this way it seems simple and glorious, but the devil is in the details.
Eventually we discover the contract as a viable instrument for enforcing agreements and applying risk to one party or the other. As a society, we have agreed that contracts should be enforced or we have no society. We have also agreed that both parties to the contract should be equals in negotiating the contract. We've created arbitration when we reach impasses. It's all become so messy, no wonder none of us wants to know about the problems that people in North Dakota are having, we live in South Dakota after all, screw those hicks, let them kill each other.
Do we need to discuss this any further? This is where the rule of law takes us my friend. Unless you got a better idea.
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| | | 81 | biliruben
ID: 561162511 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:40
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I have a friend in city govt that is relying on his pension in retirement. Even though they are flush now, a whack job like Baldwin could get elected, renig on the contract, and he's eating catfood in his "golden years." I'll take the cash in my 401K, thank you very much. The most they can probably screw you with that is change the tax code. They won't steal it wholesale.
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| | | 82 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:48
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One thing I am sure all of us can agree on is Alex Rodriguez's contract.
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| | | 83 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:49
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Got an opinion on Steve Nash?
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| | | 84 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:50
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How bout Cardale Jones? He'd be getting paid if he was a pro.
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| | | 85 | biliruben
ID: 561162511 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:52
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It's 5 O'clock somewhere.
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| | | 86 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:53
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Then there is Timmy. Making sacrifices for the greater good, that's got a to be worth some kind of currency.
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| | | 87 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 17:13
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Liberals spending money we don't have and never will have are the ones responsible for those pensions and SS payments that will evaporate.
But at least they bought some votes with our futures, so there's that.
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| | | 88 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 17:24
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Well, they may tell you they bought votes with the futures of the rich, but that's an argument we'll save for another day. Robin Hood in reverse is seldom popular unless you can find a way of disguising it.
Vote for me and I'll set you free. Two chickens in every pot.
Headed over to my buddy's house to watch the Cavs kick some Celtic arse. The world's problems will have to wait until tomorrow.
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| | | 89 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 05:04
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| | | 90 | Tree
ID: 161036918 Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 10:32
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lmao. how old is that photo?
you are the living embodiment of a cartoon character.
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| | | 91 | biliruben
ID: 81382416 Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 10:54
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In most every American city, a transformation is occurring, which is likely completely invisible to those who are still stuck in the 60s and 70s. as Baldwin's photo demonstrates.
The center cities are booming, with liberal ideas about investment in infrastructure, focusing on the family instead of spending hours in a car every day, taking care of the less fortunate and improving quality of life for all. The "ghettos" are appearing in far off ex-urbs and suburbs, which are often dominated by tax-cutting red politicians.
But if your eyes closed 40 years ago, you won't be able to see the transformation.
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| | | 92 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 11:36
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Cleveland, a dying rust belt city, is trying to do exactly what you describe bili. I've been here a month now, house sitting for my friend who lives in a house adjacent to one such gentrification project.
The problem is there is no tax base to maintain the roads, let alone invest in infrastructure. What taxes are collected are wasted on unnecessary building projects that just enrich the corrupt. So, all people can do is buy old homes and fix them up, buy old store fronts, and re-purpose them and create artsy-fartsy stuff out of factories that once provided good paying jobs.
Dan Gilbert has brought many Quicken Loans jobs here to Cleveland, but he takes as much out as he brings in, as he has also opened a casino in the heart of downtown to take back any contribution he may have made.
Hope for real jobs that we enjoyed in the 60s and 70s is all but gone here, as stiff competition for minimum wage jobs is the norm. Cleveland is not as depressed as Detroit, but I can tell you that its not optimistic here, and the despair is not just due to poor performance of sports franchises.
It's absurd that a once mighty manufacturing hub has been reduced to being simply the overseer of BP America, a few banks (Quicken and Key) and a large insurance company (Progressive). The downtown office buildings are all being converted to apartments now because they aren't needed to house businesses any longer. Ohio's greatest export has been educated people for decades now, and that has been driven primarily by our national policy of exporting jobs in favor of lower consumer prices.
So, while I am sure there is plenty of reason for the people of Seattle to rejoice in their prosperity, your optimism is not universally shared.
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| | | 93 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 11:39
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You're in Cleveland? Sweet.
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| | | 94 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 12:05
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I grew up here PD, I have tickets to the CAVs playoffs. Its why I am here, though its been fun getting reacquainted with my home town and old friends. I still have a few family members here too that weren't forced to scatter across the country in search of work. Though, like many who've remained, a couple of them just wont leave, even though they cant find adequate employment here. Some people just need a big boot up their a$$e$ to do anything for their own good.
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| | | 95 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 13:21
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I'm from Cleveland myself. My family though is out here (NEPA) for my son's First Communion, though I hope to bring the family out there once or twice this summer.
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| | | 96 | Bean
ID: 14147911 Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 13:39
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I'm staying near Detroit and W 76th, just down the street from where that black kid got killed at Cudell Recreation by the cop, PD.
I grew up at W 130th and Brookpark, John Marshall High School... Our mascot was the most fierce animal in the jungle. Go Lawyers! I think our favorite cheer was "sue the bastards!"
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| | | 97 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 19:07
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bili
I know the dream is to force suburbanites back to the cities. Take away their cars and stick them on light rails. Tax the suburbs to support the cities.
Ah the loony daydreams of the utopian totalitarians.
NO ONE WANTS THAT.
You may manage to zone people out of building where they want to live and you may really believe you can make people happy in tightly concentrated rat cage cities...but you are just going to end up with really really unhappy people. But you don't care about results. Only your golden dreams and good intentions and unicorn farts.
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| | | 98 | Tree
ID: 161036918 Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 10:15
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NO ONE WANTS THAT.
well, except everyone that does.
Fort Worth and Dallas - two of the largest cities in the United States - are both benefiting from progressive mayors who believe in creating urban villages in areas that were once, well, plays one did not usually venture into.
is there gentrification that is forcing some long time residents out - to a certain extent, yes. unfortunately, that's the price to be paid to prevent the 1970s era ghettos you prefer to live in, at least in your mind.
it's a beautiful thing what's happening here in Fort Worth. and a bike-riding mayor who's a proponent of bike paths and trails!?!??! unheard of in the Baldwinian Uptopia, but wonderful in real life.
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| | | 99 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 11:52
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Yeah, I lived in Chicago for years, biked the bike trails on the lake, commuted to work by bike and to college by elevated. No car.
Wasn't one thing utopian about it.
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| | | 100 | Gator
ID: 27337811 Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 19:35
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with liberal ideas about investment in infrastructure, focusing on the family instead of spending hours in a car every day, taking care of the less fortunate and improving quality of life for all.
These are not Liberal principles. They are ideas by almost everyone. Here are liberal ideas...Liberals created the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) to encourage private lenders to meet the needs of borrowers in low- and moderate-income neighborhoods.
The CRA spawned sub-prime mortgage lending, which boomed starting in the mid-1990s under President Bill Clinton. When the bubble burst, millions of sub-prime borrowers—the low-income people the CRA was created to help—found themselves owing more than their homes were worth. This set off the foreclosure cascade, tipped the economy into a prolonged recession, and plunged many families into poverty after they lost the homes they couldn’t afford but that Washington induced them to buy. http://www.failedliberalideas.com/#sthash.wPUTF4DE.dpuf
Getting rid of the immigration problem by making it easier for illegals to become citizens.
My favorite was paying welfare families to have more kids so you have single families costing tax payers millions.
The parade of service men wearing high heels.
The CRA caused the financial crisis and Obamacare caused businesses to go to part time workers. Using the bail out money to payoff his buddies instead of focusing on infrastructure as promised are liberal ideas.
Liberals do not have the moral high ground. We all want to help the less fortunate. It is their illogical and economically harmful ideas that separate liberals from the rest of us.
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| | | 101 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716 Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 20:13
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Amen brother.
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