Forum: pol
Page 3510
Subject: Social Network Wars


  Posted by: Boldwin - [17082720] Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 02:41

The muslim world is currently awash in social network vacilitated revolutionary activities. No one knows really what's behind it AFAIK. First Tunisia fell and countries are shutting down their internets to stop these from boiling over if that helps.

My guess is that these are organized al qeada manuevers to create a world-wide caliphate but for all I know these are neocon predicted genuine strikes for freedom from authoritarianism common in the muslim world.

Let's be some of the first to nail this down.
 
1Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 10:15
My guess is that these are organized al qeada manuevers to create a world-wide caliphate but for all I know these are neocon predicted genuine strikes for freedom from authoritarianism common in the muslim world.

You just made that up from a hat filled with buzzwords on pieces of paper, didn't you?

:)
 
2Boldwin
      ID: 17082720
      Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 10:54
No, my thinking is along the lines of Instapundit.
 
3Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 11:03
If Bush was right (and that seems to be the point), the uprisings are not because of him but because the seeds of democracy are in all people.

Funny how some on the Right (including Instapundit, which is squarely on the Right) are politicizing what Bush spent 8 years pointing out is a non-political act.

We might as well say that they are uprising because of Obama's speech in Egypt.

It is great that the Right media is coming around to see what is going on in Egypt and Tunisia, but many were downright silent on the very same thing happening in 2009 in Iran.
 
4Boldwin
      ID: 17082720
      Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 11:24
but many were downright silent on the very same thing happening in 2009 in Iran.

You are delusional.
 
5Boldwin
      ID: 17082720
      Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 11:26
Show me a prominent right blog or news source that ignored the crushed popular uprising in Iran.
 
6Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 11:39
"Silent" is probably an overstatement on my part. My point is that many blogs are repeating the exact same points that were said about Iran, apparently unable (or unwilling) to reference the earlier uprising.

Also, my point about Bush still stands. Democracy doesn't flow from George Bush.

Reporting as new a revolution occurring with the help of social media to communicate makes it seem like the Iranian uprising simply didn't happen.
 
7Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 11:55
the uprisings are not because of him but because the seeds of democracy are in all people.

I don't know if its necessarily the 'seeds of democracy' so much as the, "I want what I don't have."

"What I don't have" may be something superficial or petty (think of the PM of Italy and his prostitution scandal right now. He has all the power, wealth etc but he has to have different women to please him every chance he gets) or something a bit more meaningful ("that tyrant keeps all for himself while we suffer, its time to overthrow him").

I think with the facilitating ability of social media networks, we're going to see the 'have nots' get into groups easier. Which empowers them. Which means its not surprising to see this civil unrest more often.
 
8Boldwin
      ID: 17082720
      Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 16:49
That point went completely over your head, PD. That writer was just light-heartedly presenting the best case scenario in mentioning the grand neocon Daydream. Then he gets down to the gloomy reality of what he really believes is going on. He in no way came here to praise Bush a la Mark Anthony.

BTW those are neocons. Who knows what their real goals were. For all we know they just want a really good world war. [I say good in a sardonic sense, before that goes over yer head too]

These sorts of situations favor the organized and the initiators so I fear the islamists have the better odds.
 
9Boldwin
      ID: 20412822
      Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 23:46
Probably the worst thinking ever done by a think tank.
They should not be afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood. Living with it won’t be easy but it should not be seen as inevitably our enemy. We need not demonize it nor endorse it.
They are as a matter of cold hard fact the mother organization of Al Qeada, unalterably opposed to the USA [and Isreal], or as they like to call it, 'Great Satan', and there is no possibility of mollifying them. It isn't 'demonizing them' to say this. They've been saying it clearly for a century.

That they are 'inevitably our enemy' is the surest thing in the known universe.
 
10Boldwin
      ID: 20412822
      Sat, Jan 29, 2011, 00:26
Sure there is plenty of genuine popular uprising involved, but notice who is driving the bus and picking the destination.
 
11Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jan 29, 2011, 00:29
#8: I think you missed my point. Probably deliberately.

#9: Absolutely. Which is why we shouldn't over-estimate them either. The Muslim Brotherhood has been around a long time and Egypt has been living with them since their start (they started in Egypt).
 
12Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jan 29, 2011, 00:41
BTW, I suspect that much of the conservative media stories about Egypt will involve a lot of reporting like #9: Likes of hand wringing that democracy will bring about terrorists running for office and winning.

After all, that's exactly what happened in Palestine.

 
13Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Jan 29, 2011, 01:15
I guess we can put to rest the idea that Obama is the darling of worldwide socialists.

President Obama devoted his remarks Friday evening to defending Mubarak in the face of the mass popular revolt. On a day in which Mubarak’s police killed at least a dozen people, injured hundreds more and arrested an untold number of demonstrators, Obama cynically proclaimed that the US was “calling upon Egyptian authorities to refrain from any violence against peaceful protesters.”


Obama spoke as if he were an innocent observer. But the truncheons, guns, tear gas canisters, water cannons and tanks used by the Egyptian government to suppress the people all bear the stamp, in some cases literally, “Made in the USA.” The US provides Egypt with $1.5 billion a year to finance its apparatus of repression, making it the second largest beneficiary of US aid after Israel.


Obama lectured Mubarak about respecting human rights on the very day that WikiLeaks posted US State Department cables showing that his administration was aware of and complicit in Mubarak’s use of torture and assassination against his political opponents.


 
14Boldwin
      ID: 20412822
      Sat, Jan 29, 2011, 03:49
Marxists have a principle where they are actually crueler on their own when it comes to criticism and self-criticism.

Actually I've read that the administration has spoken favorably towards these revolutionary uprisings and threatened Egypt with ceasing their billion+ foreign aid if they cracked down too hard so they may be playing both sides but certainly not leaning Mubarack.
 
15Boldwin
      ID: 20412822
      Sat, Jan 29, 2011, 06:12
Mubarak gave a speech, poorly received of course. Firing the rest of his government basically and promising to be on the side of the protesters in working toward democracy.

SMS service is reportedly restored in Egypt. [blackberries now work] Hard to say what that means. It has the feel of having crossed over to the other side of the crisis. The army is surrounding the country's museum and letting the nearby ruling party headquarters burn.
 
16Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Jan 29, 2011, 10:07
Marxists have a principle where they are actually crueler on their own when it comes to criticism and self-criticism.

Since committed Marxists and dedicated socialists don't count Obama as one of their own, this statement can be discarded as meaningless in this context.

I know this because a high school buddy of mine,
attorney John Burton, provides articles for World Socialist Web. John, as well as several other of my California schoolmates from 40 plus years ago, are hard-core socialists who regard Obama negatively in regard to their far left ideology.
From John's article:

The executive order is an extension of the attack on democratic rights carried out by the Obama administration since it first came to office.

I realize you've convinced yourself that your statement is based on deeply introspective analysis based on expertise, but it's really just a lazy proclomation based on a radically narrow ideology not unlike John and his cronies at wsws.org.

The reality is that Obama is faced with an extremely difficult situation which has its roots in 30 years of US support for a dictator who the Egyptian masses have taken to the streets to demand his ouster. No one expects the radical right or radical left to support the President regardless of what he says or does.

 
17Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Jan 29, 2011, 11:18
TownHall.Com is a very heady organization. You had better strap your thinking cap on and bring an intellectual army before confronting those heavy hitters. - Boldwin, from another thread

Today's

Townhall has this AP story on the Egyptian crisis.

Let's examine the 1st three comments on this article for their intellectual brilliance:

>How Strange It Is
When the people of Iran protested the Islamic regime and were shot and killed in the streets. Obama was silent, saying it wasn’t the United States affair .
Now we have Islamic Fanatics looking to topple a government and suddenly Obama feels compelled to come to their aid.
“All governments must maintain power through consent, not coercion,” Obama said.
I bet the people of Iran are saying, where the hell was that line when we needed it. When private William Long was shot and killed in Arkansas by an Islamic. Obama ordered his Attorney General to protect Muslims. When Major Nidal Malik Hasan murdered 13 soldiers at Fort Hood. Obama called him a troubled man?
With his own words Obama has told us that if the people rise up against Islam. He will protect Islam.

>One only needs to look at America to understand that owebama knows nothing of "concrete steps." The imposter-in-chief has more likely promised Mubarak "concrete shoes"


>gotta put some hardening agents in concrete to increase its capacity to harden quickly for those concrete steps.yup.yup there goes that wannabe big brutal bully in the white house talking tough again..could anyone really imagine anybody in Egypt shivering in their boots from the likes of Obama,and his coven of dudley do rights...(don't think so bunkies)...little will improve in this country until we get someone in that office that by his example of humble but strict leadership which in itself, would demand respect for what the U.S. has contributed and given freely to the various populations throughout this globe. America has freely given much to those would call us friend, and unfortunately also to many who would deem us as an enemy. more disgraceful is the fact that far to many of our uncaring elected dandy's have contributed to our nations possible future demise for their own personal enrichment's.better get damned serious folks when the next election rolls around


This is what passes for heady intellectualism?

Now we have Islamic Fanatics looking to topple a government and suddenly Obama feels compelled to come to their aid.

The imposter-in-chief

yup.yup there goes that wannabe big brutal bully in the white house talking tough again..could anyone really imagine anybody in Egypt shivering in their boots from the likes of Obama,and his coven of dudley do rights...(don't think so bunkies)...


Heady intellectualism indeed.






 
18Tree
      ID: 60121615
      Sat, Jan 29, 2011, 12:35
Heady intellectualism indeed.

the right sets the bar verrrry low for themselves.
 
19Boldwin
      ID: 5408309
      Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 10:20
What does not pass for heady intellectualism is Obama, and every left wing think tank and pundit mistaking this for the Iran'09 green revolution when it is almost certainly being coopted into the Sunni version of the Iran radical take-over of '79 instead.

Only this time, at the rate they are going and with the intentions they have, they are going for a run of the entire domino table of muslim countries.

Wait till you see the 'coalition of the willing' when they have to look that beast in the eye.

But no no, you libs keep your head in the sand a bit longer.
 
20Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 11:25
you libs keep your head in the sand a bit longer.

How you can claim the intellectual high ground while reducing the level of intelligence on this forum to such depths is hard to fathom.

 
21Boldwin
      ID: 140283018
      Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 19:28
Revolutions are like a cart running downhill, as Alexis de Tocqueville observed in his brilliant analysis of the French Revolution. The American media is focused on the demand for democratic reform voiced by the mobs in the streets of Egypt. But revolutions don’t stop with the initial demands. Revolutions create power vacuums that draw new players with different agendas from those who initially sought to make the revolution. Revolutions move to the extremes, usually to the left. Those who join the mob to demand more liberty will ultimately create a regime that extinguishes all liberty. Did those who ran through the streets of Paris in July 1789 think they were revolting for the ensuing “Terror”? Did the workers who charged the Winter Palace in 1917 think they were fighting for the Gulag? Did Banisadr and Ghotbzadeh think they were replacing the shah of Iran with a theocracy?

The choice in the streets of Egypt is not Mubarak or democracy. It is Mubarak or the Muslim Brotherhood. It is the Muslim Brotherhood, like the ayatollahs of Tehran, who are the best situated to benefit from and direct the revolution, unless of course the Egyptian military holds firm.

If the Brotherhood comes to power, it will behave as did its proxy in Gaza: one man, one vote, one time, with the opposition shot in the legs and thrown off rooftops.

I will not write a brief for the oligarchy nor would I have written one for the shah. But just because you can visibly see evil does not mean that its elimination will produce something better.As the aphorism of revolution states, “Like Saturn, the revolution devours its own children.” And in so doing becomes something its creators never intended.

Our first order of business in Egypt is to produce stability and then to do something we have not done before: Assist the Egyptians in finding a mechanism for a transition to reform through an evolutionary rather than revolutionary path. The only institution capable of doing this is the Egyptian military. They should not be abandoned as was the Iranian military.

Had Obama done more than basked in the adulation of his Cairo speech and actually leaned on the regime to evolve toward a more legitimate and inclusive government, we might not be confronting the mess ahead of us.

For decades we have been dumping billions of dollars worth of advanced weapons into Egypt. A revolution means that those weapons could fall into the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood. This will tilt the balance of power in the Middle East. Emboldened by success in Egypt, radical Islam will next show its power in the Gulf and threaten the world’s oil supply. Already there are riots in Yemen.

The world as we knew it might just spin out of control. It remains to be seen if the Egyptian military, with or without our support, will rise to the task of restoring order and stability in Egypt and become a vehicle for vital political change. But if Obama emulates the horrendous decisions Jimmy Carter made during the Iranian revolution, radical Islam will spread through the region like a forest fire with the Saudis facing the ultimate conflagration. - by Abraham H. Miller via pajamas media

 
22Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 19:42
Yikes--bad analysis posing as profound historical thought.

Truth is, there is very very little we can do to persuade "regime change" among our allies, let alone in the Middle East. The absolute worst thing for an American President (any of them) is to be seen as a meddler or string puller. Anyone installed in Egypt as a result of American pressure would be rejected as illegitimate.

Does Mr Miller realize that the best thing is, at times, to do nothing?
 
23Boldwin
      ID: 140283018
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 02:30
Carter didn't do nothing. He backed the Shia revolutionaries who abused him later.
 
24Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 02:39
You completely overstate America's influence on that country's internal affairs. As well as the latest boogeyman of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. The protesters aren't calling for a more restrictive government--they are calling for a more transparent one. The fear seems to be that the Muslim Brotherhood (which has no real political power or structure in Egypt) will step into some sort of vacuum and plunge Egypt into a dark age. This completely misreads history as well as what the protesters are actually going for. And (conveniently) forgets about the role of the army, who would never stand for the Muslim Brotherhood.

Don't get me started (again) on your Carter tic. Iran fell into the mullah's hands because the Shah stupidly allowed them back into the country, after he started instituting western-style reforms (including women's rights, which really got them going).
 
25sarge33rd
      ID: 45072817
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 09:31
Those who join the mob to demand more liberty will ultimately create a regime that extinguishes all liberty.

The American Revolution of 1776 not withstanding eh?
 
26Boldwin
      ID: 140283018
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 09:40
You completely overstate America's influence on that country's internal affairs.

Where did I do that?

As well as the latest boogeyman of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

They didn't just pop into consciousness yesterday. These are the people who killed Sadat. They've been the dark underbelly of Egypt since @ 1930.

The protesters aren't calling for a more restrictive government--they are calling for a more transparent one.

The victor will be whoever can take advantage of the power vaccuum. The rioters aren't going to get what they want except for change-any change. A mob is not an entity with a voice. It is a gaping maw of unhappiness and anarchy. They will go home when they start getting shot in serious numbers, not when their ballots are counted.

the Muslim Brotherhood (which has no real political power or structure in Egypt)

The MB are every bit as powerful and organized as the Nazis were when they took power, the communists were in China or Russia when they took power, than the freemasons were when they took France in 1789.

The fear seems to be that the Muslim Brotherhood (which has no real political power or structure in Egypt) will step into some sort of vacuum and plunge Egypt into a dark age.

We know exactly what they want. A world-wide caliphate and world-wide sharia. AKA dark ages.

It isn't 'some sort' of hypothetical vaccuum, it is the exact power vaccuum we see today.

This completely misreads history

Why? They want something other than what the radicals who took Iran wanted?

And (conveniently) forgets about the role of the army, who would never stand for the Muslim Brotherhood.

That's the x-factor and we'll just have to wait and see if the military commanders can hold it together. History is full of miltary leaders who took advantage of situations like this and they are by no means limited to the original chain of command. Puhlenty of MB sympathy in the military just as there are plenty of police involved in MB atrocities against Coptics.
 
27Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 10:24
Where did I do that?

By approvingly linking to a piece in #21 which makes that assumption, and uses it as a basis to slam Obama. You yourself used it as a taking-off point to slam Carter, for some reason.

No right thinking person is questioning that the Muslim Brotherhood wants what is bad (particularly for the US). But the handwringing being done to try to lay this all at the feet of Obama reveals a lack of critical thinking on the issue. An Obama hatred-centric worldview, believe it or not, has gaps of knowledge.

The worse thing in the world is for the US to start tossing its weight around right now.
 
28Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 10:35
Something I hadn't discovered in other media revealed by the Mubarak-banned in Egypt Al Jazeera.

The Obama administration has probably put the Egyptian military chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Sami Hafez Anan, on notice before he left the US capital on Friday, and explained what it can, could not or would not stand for in terms of the military's response to the revolt.

Washington has been a major backer of the Egyptian military over the last three decades, supplying the country with around $2bn in annual aid mostly for military purposes. When the uprising broke out, Anan was in Washington as part of their annual strategising sessions.


This could help explain why the military has been relatively passive in dealing with the protestors. And despite claims that there is Puhlenty of MB sympathy in the military, that may or may not be true with the rank and file, but there is no evidence that the Muslim Brotherhood holds any standing with the military leadership.

Kudos to CNN for sending Anderson Cooper and crew to Cairo for live coverage.
 
29Boldwin
      ID: 140283018
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 11:17
Sarge

Head on over to Intrade and bet on mom, apple pie and freedom if you actually believe what you say. Send us the snapshot of you and your trophy when it turns out that way.
 
30Boldwin
      ID: 140283018
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 11:20
But the handwringing being done to try to lay this all at the feet of Obama reveals

If that's all you see...good God.

You are on the precipice of potentially a world-wide Islamist takeover of muslim countries and all you can think of is how does this make Obama look?
 
31Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 12:37
You are on the precipice of potentially a world-wide Islamist takeover of muslim countries and all you can think of is how does this make Obama look?

um, he's not the one doing that. he's pointing out how silly it is to lay blame on Obama for this, which many of your ilk are doing.
 
32Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 12:44
Heh. I'm not concerned with how Obama looks. I'm concerned with how people are missing the point because they are concerned that Obama gets blame no matter what happens.

The Blame Obama First crowd can't get outside the paper walls of their self-made intellectual prisons.
 
33Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 12:52
can't get outside the paper walls of their self-made intellectual prisons.

I blame Obama for that.
 
34Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 12:55
Heh. A Kenyan paper company made them, I believe.
 
35Boldwin
      ID: 120423118
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 19:42
I want all you 'Islam is the religion of peace' crowd to keep singing your tune right on thru it all.

No sliding out of it.
 
36Boldwin
      ID: 120423118
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 20:16
Since PD insists this is all about Obama, what are the parties most effected saying?
"The question is, do we think Obama is reliable or not," said an Israeli official, who declined to be named.

"Right now it doesn't look so. That is a question resonating across the region not just in Israel."

Writing in Haaretz, Ari Shavit said Obama had betrayed "a moderate Egyptian president who remained loyal to the United States, promoted stability and encouraged moderation."

To win popular Arab opinion, Obama was risking America's status as a superpower and reliable ally.

"Throughout Asia, Africa and South America, leaders are now looking at what is going on between Washington and Cairo. Everyone grasps the message: "America's word is worthless ... America has lost it." - Israel shocked by Obama's "betrayal" of Mubarak, Reuters
Who is advising him that it is possible for a USA president to become popular among muslim rioters?
 
37Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 20:25
Since PD insists this is all about Obama

Did you stop reading #32 after you reached the end of my name?

You noddingly posted a piece about Obama being the problem with Egypt. The claim I "insist" this is about Obama.

!!

No wonder you are a Birther. It follows the same script of loudly making a wildly wrong political point, get knocked down, then insisting upon having a seat at the grownup table because people are talking about it.
 
38Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 22:17
muslim rioters?

Given the scope of the demonstrations, there's very little rioting going on, and what little looting there is, the Muslim Brotherhood has been a positive force in limiting these activities.

This is civil disobedience on a historical scale.
 
39Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Jan 31, 2011, 22:35
As a postscript to #38, those who get their news only from Fox are missing what's happening in Cairo. CNN is kicking Fox's butt in covering this phenomenon. Anderson Cooper is literally in the streets with the demonstrators; cameras being jilted by the crowds; interviewing ElBaradei; reporting reminiscint of the great wartime correspondents.
 
40Boldwin
      ID: 120423118
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 04:40
This would be a good time to end ethanol subsidies...he said from Illinois.
 
41Boldwin
      ID: 120423118
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 04:47
Good to see Cooper doing something more serious than 'The Mole'. And that really is a serious situation. I wouldn't recommend it for any American.

I always get him confused with some guy who was a FLA politician who left office with some serious accusations hanging over his head and went into cable news. Can't remember who that was atm.

 
42Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 07:57
some guy who was a FLA politician who left office with some serious accusations hanging over his head and went into cable news

that's Alaska. it was an Alaska politican who left office with serious accusations hanging over her head, and went into cable news.


 
43Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 10:56
it was an Alaska politican who left office with serious accusations hanging over her head

Yep, and they both love tall, hairy men who drive snowmobiles... :)
 
44Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 11:00
Ari Shavit said Obama had betrayed "a moderate Egyptian president who remained loyal to the United States, promoted stability and encouraged moderation."

How stable and moderate is it to cut off the country's communication systems? Without the internet, without cell phones and without connected landlines, there is no way to conduct business. There is no way to do any banking;any credit card transactions. Mubarak has cut off Egypt from the rest of the world, keeping it's stock markets closed, and jeopadizing Egypt's financial stabilty for years to come.

When the Egyptian army stated yesterday that they would not fire on the demonstrators today, the writing was on the wall. Rather than comparisons to Iran in 1979, a better analogy would be the Phillipines in 1986, when Marcos was peacefully removed from office after the military refused to fire on demonstrators iun Manila.

The longer the "moderate" Mubarak clings to what's left of his 30 year dictatorship, the better for the Muslim Brotherhood and radical Islamists, who even now are positioning themselves as moderates and organizing their base to fill the power vacuum that a Mubarak -less Egypt faces.

No one really knows what's happening behind the scenes, but it's a good bet that communication between the US and the Egyptian army is ongoing, bypassing Mubarak, and seeking solutions.

Obama hasn't betrayed Mubarak. Mubarak betrayed Egypt when he shut down the country. Had Obama given Mubarak full support, the same Obama-haters would have criticized that as well, since their hatred for the president trumps their love of America.


 
45Boldwin
      ID: 33122116
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 17:23
It is ridiculous to think that anyone facing a twitter revolution would be well advised to leave twitter operating.
_____________________________________________

George Bush and the Neocon Daydream: They just need to find their voice.

All well and good as long as their genuine voice isn't 'Hey let's all go down to the Coptic church and burn everyone alive.'
 
46Boldwin
      ID: 33122116
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 18:09
Mubarak's security people think the Obama admin was deliberately facilitating and working towards this all along.

Well he is a radical and he does love people like Chavez so whose to say he wasn't eager to see a revolution? I'm actually starting to question him for radical muslim sympathies for the first time. I was sure he was pure Alinsky and all marxist, but maybe he just loves all revolution just for change' sake.
 
47Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 18:16
Yes, because a dictator, in the throes of getting tossed, is a good source for that kind of information.
 
48Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 18:49
Well he is a radical (B...)and he does love people like Chavez (I...) so whose to say he wasn't eager to see a revolution? I'm actually starting to question him for radical muslim sympathies (N...)for the first time. I was sure he was pure Alinsky (G...) and all marxist(O!!!!!!), but maybe he just loves all revolution just for change' sake.

don't ever change Baldwin. you're one grand talking point and buzz word bingo regurgitator extraordinaire.

when you post, i often think of you as some sort of magical Seussian machine.

Stuff goes in one end, and comes out the other end, but, it's just, stuff.

 
49Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 19:18
Well he is a radical

Not nearly as radical as Joseph Farah and his admirers(that would include you, B)

Like it or not, The Muslim Brotherhood is part of the mix in Egypt.

The Egyptian intelligence official told WND his government has information of a meeting that took place yesterday between Issam El-Erian, a senior leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, and Frank Wisner, a former U.S. ambassador to Egypt.

The Obama administration dispatched Wisner to Egypt this past weekend to report to the State Department and White House a general sense of the situation in the embattled country.



That hardly rises to your claim that Mubarak's security people think the Obama admin was deliberately facilitating and working towards this all along.

The rest of the WND hit piece is littered with

>a senior Egyptian diplomat stated the Egyptian government suspects

The senior Egyptian diplomat told WND the Mubarak regime suspects

Suspicions, especially when offered by an entity as untrustworthy as WND, are relevant only in that they reflect the bias of the publication.

ElBaradei arrived in Cairo just after last week's protests began and is reportedly being confined to his home by Egyptian security forces.

He is seen as an ally of the Muslim Brotherhood.


Reported by whom? He's been in the square with a bullhorn and in the streets being interviewed by Anderson Cooper. Who sees him as an ally of the Muslim Brotherhood? WND gives no details, and real journalists do not see him as an ally of the MB, so that can be disarded as WND propoganda along with the rest of the article.
























 
50Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 19:36
Ann Coulter: Mob riots like Egypt's "have never led to something good."

Is this what the anti-education party has finally gotten down to in their talk shows?
 
51Boldwin
      ID: 33122116
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 20:07
Oh, fill us in with all the muslim country counter-examples of riots gone good. Do.
 
53Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 21:15
That is, of course, not what she said.

The fact that you have the right to openly spew falsehoods is an example of a good thing coming out of a riot mob.
 
54Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 21:15
Ann Coulter is way too smart to see only mob riots going on in Egypt, but she has to dumb it down in fear of losing her base of reactionary celebrity to Sarah Palin.

It's good to know there's still conservatives like Mitt Romney, whose thought process isn't completely dominated by gratuitous attacks on Obama.

Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney has broken ranks with other likely Republican presidential candidates on Egypt. He praises President Barack Obama’s handling of the crisis and calls for Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to step down.



 
55Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 21:27
Hitchens, of all people, with a firstrate column on the dimness of dictators.
 
56Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Wed, Feb 02, 2011, 10:02
Anderson Cooper is literally in the streets with the demonstrators; cameras being jilted by the crowds; interviewing ElBaradei; reporting reminiscint of the great wartime correspondents.

to follow up on the above...

Journalists are getting caught in the fray. CNN's Anderson Cooper -- who spoke to The Cutline from Cairo on Monday -- was punched ten times today as pro-Mubarak protesters surrounded his crew, according to CNN's Steve Brusk. NBC's Richard Engel said Wednesday on MSNBC that many of the pro-Mubarak protesters are against the media.
 
57Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Feb 02, 2011, 10:35
These demonstrations, despite Ann Coulter's description of "mob riots", have been extraordinarily peaceful until today, when the demonstrators were attacked in Cairo by pro-Mubarak thugs.

Despite the human suffering involved, the Coulters and Hannitys will respond with glee, as they blame Obama for the outbreak of violence.
Right now, Fox is just reporting the facts, to their credit. I'm predicting that later in the day, when Beck, Hannity and O'Reilly take to the air, you'll see a firestorm of criticism aimed at Obama.
These talking heads like to identify themselves as patriots, when just the opposite is true. They are quick to abandon any support for American foreign policy when they see an opportunity to score political points based on partisan hackery. They are as guilty of hating America as those who they like to accuse for a lack of patriotism.
 
58Boldwin
      ID: 33122116
      Wed, Feb 02, 2011, 11:22
Yeah, when MB proxies are running 6 new countries of their very own, we'll come back and see if you're still so happy to admit it was official American foreign policy.

Tell them then that they are not allowed to host al qeada training camps. All of them.
 
59Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Feb 02, 2011, 11:25
Yeah, when MB proxies are running 6 new countries of their very own, we'll come back and see if you're still so happy to admit it was official American foreign policy.

Good to see you're not waiting for talking head nonsense before spewing your own.

 
60Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Feb 02, 2011, 14:42
The worst thing I see about the modern MB is it's affiliation with Hamas. How much material support exists there? Is there other activity Im missing? Like any other large international organization, there's a broad range of outlooks and perspectives within. The leadership of the Egyptian faction, which Ive heard or read occupies about 20% of the government, seems very pro democracy. And while they openly seek a religious presence in government, they strongly oppose any clerical rule.

I understand there is an ugly history of assassination and terrorism and other violence at various times, but they've clearly chosen moderation most recently. Bin Laden and al Qaeda have renounced the MB and other violent groups have splintered off rather than conform to MB's nonviolence pledge.

In that part of the world you just aren't going to find a power structure that doesn't have a history of violence. Imagine what a hard look at the history of the Israeli military leadership would look like. I have no idea what the MB would do if they captured a powerful presence in government. It probably depends on which factions within MB take those positions. It's obviously very delicate and there's a lot we can't know, but moderation doesn't necessarily look like the least likely outcome to me.
 
61Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Wed, Feb 02, 2011, 18:54
In that part of the world you just aren't going to find a power structure that doesn't have a history of violence. Imagine what a hard look at the history of the Israeli military leadership would look like.

one of those rare moments where you and i will probably agree on something in regards to Israel, so i felt the need to point it out.
 
62Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 08:44
The Colbert ReportMon - Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c
Crisis in Egypt
www.colbertnation.com
Colbert Report Full EpisodesPolitical Humor & Satire BlogVideo Archive
 
63Boldwin
      ID: 57152218
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 08:50
Wow, this is getting interesting.

All thru Obama's admin, there has been a close relationship with the president of INSA [which raises money for Hamas], an MB proxy organization. Ingrid Mattson working inside the WH with Valerie Jarret.

Obama longtime associates Ayers and Dohrn led a protest from Egypt to Gaza, butting heads with Mubarak over the size of the protest allowed. Another leader of that protest, Jodie Evans, formed Code Pink in 2002 to protest America's war in Iraq. Code Pink has previously met with Hamas and with leaders of the Taliban. Evans was a fundraiser and financial bundler for Obama's presidential campaign.

Also featured at that protest, Ali Abunimah, co-founder of the anti-Israel Electronic Intifada website. He introduced Obama at a pro-palestinian event.
Abunimah traveled in some of the same political circles as Obama in the 1990s. Abunimah previously described meeting with Obama at a fundraiser at the home of Columbia University professor Rashid Khalidi, reportedly a former PLO activist. Khalidi was also a close associate of Obama.

"[Obama] came with his wife. That's where I had a chance to really talk to him," Abunimah recalled. "It was an intimate setting. He convinced me he was very aware of the issues [and] critical of U.S. bias toward Israel and lack of sensitivity to Arabs. ... He was very supportive of U.S. pressure on Israel."

According to quotes obtained by Gulf News, Abunimah recalled a 2004 meeting in a Chicago neighborhood while Obama was running for his Senate seat. Abunimah quoted Obama telling him "warmly" he was sorry that "I haven't said more about Palestine right now, but we are in a tough primary race."

"I'm hoping when things calm down, I can be more up front," Abunimah reportedly quoted the senator as saying.

Abunimah said Obama urged him to "keep up the good work" at the Chicago Tribune, where Abunimah contributed guest columns that were highly critical of Israel.
______________

Last week, a senior Egyptian diplomat stated the Egyptian government suspects elements of the current uprising there, particularly political aspects, are being coordinated with the U.S. State Department and Obama administration.

The senior Egyptian diplomat told WND the Mubarak regime suspects the U.S. has been aiding protest planning by Mohamed ElBaradei, who is seen as one of the main opposition leaders in Cairo.

ElBaradei, former International Atomic Energy Agency chief, has reinvented himself as a campaigner for "reform" in Egypt. He is a candidate for this year's scheduled presidential elections.
______________
Last weekend, the London Telegraph reported the U.S. Embassy in Cairo in 2008 helped a young dissident attend a U.S.-sponsored summit for activists in New York, while working to keep his identity secret from Egyptian state police.

The Telegraph would not identify the dissident, but said he was involved in helping to stir the current protests. The report claimed the dissident told the U.S. Embassy in Cairo that an alliance of opposition groups had a plan to topple Mubarak's government.

The disclosures, contained in U.S. diplomatic dispatches released by the WikiLeaks website, show American officials pressed the Egyptian government to release other dissidents who had been detained by the police.
Now for my own take, I am thinking that during the course of these protests as Mubarak became more and more convinced that there was no use appeasing Obama and being restrained, he is now more likely to unleash the thugs as we see happening in the last 24 hrs.

This guy is better at using thugs than Obama is at using the SEIU, so don't go planning Mubarak's funeral just yet. If he survives it won't be because of the USA.
The Obama administration's support for the unrest is strikingly reminiscent of Jimmy Carter's support of the Islamic revolution in Iran in 1979, which marked the birth of modern Islamist expansion.

"Thirty-one years after the victory of the Islamic Republic, we are faced with the obvious fact that these movements are the aftershocks of the Islamic revolution," said Iranian cleric Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami, as reported by Iran's Radio Zamaneh. "The fate of those who challenge [our] religion is destruction."
 
64Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 09:08
INSA [which raises money for Hamas], an MB proxy organization

Did you mean for your close-bracket to go in that spot, intending that INSA is a Muslim Brotherhood proxy organization?

Or did you mean to write; INSA, which raises money for Hamas (an MB proxy organization) - calling Hamas the MB proxy?
 
65Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 10:37
The yellow journalism presented by WND in an article by proven liar Aaron Klein, which is little more than a promo for his book, goes a long way in exposing the total lack of ethics these phony conservatives display.

Let's start at the beginning:

Top members of the Egyptian government say they feel betrayed by President Obama, charging that he is acting against American interests.

"Mubarak's regime feels Obama is pushing the advancement of the Muslim Brotherhood against U.S. interests," said WND's Jerusalem bureau chief and senior reporter Aaron Klein. "They are genuinely trying to understand why Obama is seemingly championing the anti-regime protests."

Klein said that a top Egyptian diplomat with whom he has developed a rapport over the last few years asked him earlier this week to explain Obama's motivation to support the opposition to Mubarak.


Top members

Mubarak's regime

a top Egyptian diplomat


I guess these top diplomatic members of Mubarak's regime don't have names. So we can throw out the first two paragraphs.

"I told him none of this should be a surprise," said Klein, "that the Obama administration has developed an extensive relationship over the last few years with allies of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The diplomat requested 20 copies of Klein's New York Times bestselling book investigating Obama, "The Manchurian President: Barack Obama's ties to communists, socialists, and other anti-American extremists."


Aha, that's how we got the title to the article:

Egypt now fears Obama a 'Manchurian President'

We should all be aghast that this article is presented on this forum as if it has one ounce of legitimacy. Boehner, Kerry, McCain and Romney are just a few who have praised Obama's handling of this crisis and called for Mubarak to step down.

WND and Aaron Klein are radically anti-American who show time and time again that they are willing to make up facts in a feeble attempt to disguise themselves as some kind of news outlet.











 
66Boldwin
      ID: 57152218
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 11:16
MITH

I meant it the way I wrote it.
 
67Boldwin
      ID: 57152218
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 11:26
PV

You can believe that Obama doesn't support the MB radical positions against Mubarak, against the peace treaty between Isreal and Egypt...

God knows Obama and company will 'say the right thing' and pretend even-handed disinterest in the outcome...

But I know for sure he backs the radical pro MB, pro Hamas, pro palestinian, anti Isreal positions of Ayers, Dohrn, Jodie Evans, Ali Abunimah, Rashid Khalidi, Ingrid Mattson.

Enjoy that smoke Obama is blowing up the wazoo.
 
68Boldwin
      ID: 57152218
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 11:28
And I know that for sure because those are the sort of people who propelled him to power, his sort of friends before he was tapped on the shoulder.
 
69Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 11:31
Actually, for the record, you didn't. Unless you mean to say that the Intelligence and National Security Alliance is a Muslim Brotherhood proxy. I realized after accidentially stumblning onto something about the Islamic Society of North America (and after I wrote #64) that you got your abreviation wrong.

Re ISNA, has their leadership had operational ties with Hamas in the last 20 years? And I'm still waiting for a response to #60 regarding the Muslim Brotherhood.
 
70Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 11:38
But I know for sure he backs the radical pro MB, pro Hamas, pro palestinian, anti Isreal positions of Ayers, Dohrn, Jodie Evans, Ali Abunimah, Rashid Khalidi, Ingrid Mattson.

Based on what? Certainly nothing you've posted on this forum. If anyone is a victim of smoke being blown up their wazoo, it would be you. Your blind acceptance of innuendo, distortion, rumour and speculation erases any objectivity, which is paramount to reaching any type of intelligent conclusion regarding Obama's positions.

 
71Boldwin
      ID: 57152218
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 11:42
Ayers and Khalidi are his oldest backers in politics, even before Soros picked him over Clinton. Even before Dems in the Illinois legislature singled him out for special attention. Safe to say categorically that he agrees with them.
 
72Boldwin
      ID: 57152218
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 11:49
BTW I'm addressing all you libs who are convinced that every war the USA has fought was really about the oil...

The time al qeada's mother the MB controls the Suez Canal...

...is the time like a stopped clock when you are gonna be right.
 
73Perm Dude -- out
      ID: 0151310
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 11:51
Surely *someone* had to have Soros & Ayers on their Baldwin Bingo card?
 
74DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 12:03
I'm pretty sure Soros is the "free" square, actually. Anything else would be too large an advantage.
 
75Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 12:06
Safe to say categorically that he agrees with them.

That's incredibly weak. Look back at your claim in #67.

I know for sure he backs the radical pro MB, pro Hamas, pro palestinian, anti Isreal positions

And as proof, you offer it's safe to say he categorically agrees with them? People he's had virtually no contact with in decades? Yet he's still beholden to them, because he had a few meetings with them a couple decades ago?


Try this. It's 2011. Obama is president and dealing with a crisis in Egypt. His actions and his statements in 2011 are the only thing any of us can be sure of, so speculating beyond that, especially based on decades-old claims of mind-controlling associates, is just meaningless propoganda.



 
76Perm Dude -- out
      ID: 0151310
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 12:23
Josh Marshall with a thoughtful piece on the hubris of Israel's leaders with regard to Egypt.
 
77Boldwin
      ID: 24144315
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 16:44
Just like the united cold-shoulder the west gave the Shah
Feb. 2, President Barack Obama delivered an ultimatum to Egyptian Vice President Omar Suleiman and the army and security chiefs: Mubarak must be removed in the coming hours or else US aid to Egypt will be cut off, debkafile's Washington sources exclusively report. Pressure on the Egyptian armed forces to oust the president forthwith was further applied by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton who called Vice President Omar Suleiman, US Defense Secretary Robert Gates who called Egyptian defense minister Mohamed Tantawi, and US armed forces chief Adm. Mike Mullen in a telephone call to the Egyptian chief of staff Gen. Sami Enan.,

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and UK Prime Minister David Cameron were recruited earlier to lean hard on Egyptian army chiefs to bring Mubarak's presidency to an end in the coming hours.
These globalists are exerting every effort creating the monster they will all end up fighting.
 
78Boldwin
      ID: 24144315
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 16:55
Source
 
79Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 18:48
Debka.com

Forbes identifies the best part of the website as being its archives, but decries the fact that "most of the information is attributed to unidentified sources."

Wired.com's Noah Shachtman wrote in 2001 that the site "clearly reports with a point of view; the site is unabashedly in the hawkish camp of Israeli politics," adding that Debka had partnered with the right-wing news site WorldNetDaily for a weekly subscription product.[3] Yediot Achronot investigative reporter Ronen Bergman states that the site relies on information from sources with an agenda, such as neo-conservative elements of the US Republican Party, "whose worldview is that the situation is bad and is only going to get worse," and that Israeli intelligence officials do not consider even 10 percent of the site's content to be reliable.[1] Cornell Law professor Michael C. Dorf calls Debka his "favorite alarmist Israeli website trading in rumors."[4]

The site's operators, in contrast, state that 80 percent of what Debka reports turns out to be true.


So, they admit that at least 20% of what they report are lies? Yeah, that's better than the 90% that Israeli intelligence says are lies, which is about the same percentage of dishonest reporting we've come to expect from WorldNet Daily.
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 24144315
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 20:08
I can't think of anyone who is more wired into what's going on in the muslim world than Daniel Pipes and here are his perceptions atm.

He's a bit more confident in the military establishment and the staying power of old guards long in power than I am.
 
81Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 20:46
Two things about the Pipes article which are a big step forward.

1) Pipes article is presented as opinion and anylysis instead of masquerading as a 'news" outlet

2) Pipes appears to be sober, as opposed to Glenn Beck, Joseph Farah, Aaron Klein and Boldwin.
 
82Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 03, 2011, 23:04
Anderson Cooper continues to brave the crisis in Cairo, and is rewarded in the ratings.
 
83Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:36
As usual, The Onion is all over this.
 
84Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 12:50
love the onion article. especially the closing line
 
85DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 13:30
It's a bad move to just cut him loose IMO, should at least be able to get a draft pick for a Middle Eastern dictator back for him, or a tyrant to be named later.
 
86Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 14:13
Stop it Dwetzel. I may have to admit to liking you if you keep making me laugh.
 
87DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 14:20
It's OK to like it a little and hate yourself for it at the same time. At least that's what I tell myself every time Showgirls is on. (no, not really)
 
88Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 20:21
If/when Mubarak does go, he won't be worrying about his next meal.

Experts say the wealth of the Mubarak family was built largely from military contracts during his days as an air force officer. He eventually diversified his investments through his family when he became president in 1981. The family's net worth ranges from $40 billion to $70 billion, by some estimates.

Gross national income is $2,070 per family in Egypt, according to the World Bank.


I'm not a big redistribution of wealth guy, but I might make an exception in this case.



link
 
89Boldwin
      ID: 28110716
      Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 17:10
Hard to eat when you have been hung.
 
90Boldwin
      ID: 28110716
      Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 17:15
I don't suppose this will bother those who love change, any change just for change' sake but these changes are killing off every christian community in the middle east. Communities which survived bitter discrimination and atrocities for a millenia but no room for them in the 'age of tolerance' and in the 'inevitable march of human progress' */sarc
 
91Boldwin
      ID: 28110716
      Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 17:16
Fix for the broken link.
 
92Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 17:41
Rush walks back statement about beatings of journalists in Egypt, only after FOX reporters get beaten
 
93Boldwin
      ID: 38112911
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 12:31
The folly of the neocons and their daydream of a democratic muslim world.
“The blunt reality is our alliances in the Arab world are with a thin strata of the ruling elite,” Rosen said. “We face mass movements in virtually every Muslim country that are profoundly hostile to the West and very uninterested in peace with Israel and many other things we’re interested in. When you start talking about democratization, you’re really unleashing these forces.” - BEN SMITH & JOSH GERSTEIN |via Politico
Neocons have an undeserved reputation as being pro-Isreal and a deserved reputation as being largely Jewish followers of Leo Strauss. The folly of thinking that a democratic islamic world might work out favorably to our values and not rather to the Islamists' ends points to the fundamental flaw in listening to Neocons.

They are fundamentally liars. They believe in an esoteric truth and agenda known only to the inner circle and an exoteric myth designed for our ears.

Thus what they tell us will end up a democratic nirvana hospitable to human rights and progress might just as easily be their myth designed to lead to war, world war which they view very favorably, as opportunities to further their agenda whatever their real endgame is.

I repeat a refrain I've stated for years. The globalist elites [who have insinuated themselves into both sides of the political spectrum] want a religious world war as a pretext to end all religion independent of their control.

In the unintentional words of Jackson Brown, 'nobody gets it like they want it, nobody nobody'.
 
94Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 13:06
Your link doesn't work. And for the record, Smith and Gerstein didn't write that. They're quoting former AIPAC "official", Steve Rosen, as a counter to the neocon support of Mubarack's ouster quoted on the previous page. Not to nitpick but I knew Ben Smith wouldn't write that paragraph.

Anyway, in the next paragraph this Rosen guy laments, regarding the difficulty of being true to his anti-Middle Eastern democracy stance:
It becomes hard to defend repression and say, ‘Go crack some heads.’ It’s hard to say ‘We want an undemocratic autocrat’ or ‘We don’t stand for freedom.’ The ‘freedom agenda’ is a compelling idea,” Rosen said. “It’s hard to defend Mubarak’s police.”
But he trudges on, poor guy...
 
95Boldwin
      ID: 38112911
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 13:45
Further:
Bolton said his views on the wisdom of overturning pro-Western governments like Egypt are driven in large part by a 1979 Commentary article by Jeane Kirkpatrick, “Dictatorships and Double Standards.” The essay, criticizing the Carter administration’s approach to unrest in Iran and Nicaragua, helped Kirkpatrick win the job of U.N. ambassador under President Ronald Reagan.

We went from two authoritarian governments that were pro-American to two governments that were even more authoritarian and anti-American,” Bolton observed. “Good intentions only get you so far. In a complicated, highly uncertain situation where, in this case Egypt, the U.S. has huge strategic interests, we’re rolling the dice on the Jimmy Carter theory of democracy.”

And in Jerusalem Wednesday, the criticism of American optimism that Egypt - Muslim Brotherhood and all - could find its way to secular, open democracy was even more heated.

The Israeli scholar Barry Rubin summed up the local view of Washington’s high-mindedness: “I have an idea for the prophets of Muslim Brotherhood moderation: Please experiment with the lives of people closer to your own homes.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/48747.html#ixzz1DULREmt3
the Because we all remember how well naive Jimmy Carter diplomacy turns out.
 
96Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 13:57
Carter's biggest act of diplomacy (and one that eluded even King Reagan) was the Camp David Accords between Egypt and Israel.

If that is what Bolton is trying to avoid then he's even more out of touch than I thought.
 
97Boldwin
      ID: 38112911
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 14:12
Since we are now even willing to throw out that baby with the Mubarak bathwater, let's start calling the present policy 'even worse than Jimmy Carter'.

And Carter doesn't get the credit for that treaty, Sadat does. Just an accident of history that there was an Egyptian statesman capable of that available at that time.

I have this nightmare of liberals sticking Nurse Ratched between the ribs cause she's kinda icky but as a result turning the world into Resident Evil.
 
98Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 14:17
You seem to have a lot of nightmares about things which would never happen in the light of day.

You can run from Carter's achievement all you want, but the facts remain: Both sides credited Carter with making the deal happen. You can't only take the word of Israelis when they slam Democrats--that would open you up to the charge of "political bias."
 
99Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 14:23
180,000 protesters divided by 18,000,000 residents of Cairo = 1% of the population is protesting. We had a bigger % turnout at our Christmas parade.
 
100Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 14:45
Boldwin

What would you have the US do differently? Mubarak is toast. The only questions are when he leaves, how much violence occurs before and after he's out and what kind of leadership replaces him.

Would you deploy American "peacekeeping troops" to Egypt? Send the Mubarak government military aid? Just conquer them now rather than have to do it later? Throw a benefit concert?

How could any kind of support for Mubarak now or since this started possibly advance US interests in the region?

Outright reouncing power centers within the Egyptian opposition can only corrupt (or further corrupt, if that's the case) democracy there and almost certainly wouldn't effect an outcome in any way that is beneficial for us. If anything the more anti-American factions would be strengthened by our meddling.

What differently would you do?
 
101Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 14:47
let's start calling the present policy 'even worse than Jimmy Carter'.

By all means, what should be done differently?
 
102Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 15:11
We had a bigger % turnout at our Christmas parade.

don't know to what extent you're kidding, but if not that's a bit tough. I'm sure you don't risk assault, injury (or worse) threats, attacks and other political repercussions for you and maybe your family for coming out to the Christmas parade.
 
103Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 15:18
He's a Christian in America! Of course he's risking that, and more! Don't you listen to Rush?
 
104Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 16:15
Actually, there was an atheist vuvuzela band float in the Christmas parade this year.

Why should the king care that less than 1% of his people are upset about something. 98-99% of the people must not be protesting. It looks like a lot of protesters, but in a city of 18 million people, it's really not.
 
105DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 16:57
Excellent. I was looking for a mathematical basis on which to laugh at and ignore the Tea Party protesters as fringe lunatics. Now I have one (by about two orders of magnitude at the peak)!
 
106Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 17:02
According to wikipedia, the city of Cairo has a population of 6M, the surrounding areas contain another 10. And last time I checked, this wasn't about the mayor of Cairo, but the leader of Egypt, which has a population of 80M. So, since less than 1/4 of one percent of the population are protesting, it shouldn't even be a news story.
 
107Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 17:06
So, since less than 1/4 of one percent of the population are protesting, it shouldn't even be a news story.

Totally agree. The other 79 million Egyptians are obviously just like the Nixonian "Silent Majority". If they ain't on the street taking a bullet, they obviously support Mubarak.
 
108Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 17:25
Y'all are starting to catch on. Good job.
 
109Boldwin
      ID: 38112911
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 21:11
There's an app for that.
Protesters can now keep one step ahead of the police. Bad news for Londonistan police.
 
110Boldwin
      ID: 38112911
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 21:15
What differently would you do? - MITH

How about stay the H out of Egypt's business?
 
111Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Wed, Feb 09, 2011, 23:42
That's a non-answer.

The US and Egypt have been in each other's "business" since the 1970s.

You say the "present day policy" is disasterous. I don't even know what policy you're talking about. I have my doubts about whether you do as well, or if you were just caught out there while your ODS rage was on autopilot.

Please humor me, what "present day policy"? And what course of action would be preferable?
 
112J-Bar
      ID: 53151923
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 01:00
With thirty years of economic and military aid, 2nd only to Israel, you would think that their horrendous human rights record would be better.
 
113Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 01:35
It obviously hasn't been much of an American priority.

But then Israel's human rights record, while very complicated, is hardly any model of excellence, either.
 
114Boldwin
      ID: 38112911
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 03:14
Present policy #97 - Since we are now even willing to throw out that baby with the Mubarak bathwater, let's start calling the present policy 'even worse than Jimmy Carter'.

That would be the present policy of destroying the Egypt - Isreal peace treaty by laying out the red carpet for the MB to take over.

And what course of action would be preferable? - MITH

Stay the H out of Egypt's business.

They aren't building nukes to nuke us with like Iran. We don't demand Ahmadinejad step down immediately.

They aren't officially harboring al qeada...yet.

They aren't murdering prisoners for custom order replacements body parts like Hu Jintao. Somehow we don't demand Hu Jintao must step down this instant.

They aren't conducting nazi style medical experiments on concentration camp prisoners like Kim Jong Il yet somehow we don't demand he step down yesterday.

He isn't any more represive than Hugo Chavez yet Obama can't give him enuff love pats.

WTF are we letting Obama mess with Mubarak?
 
115Boldwin
      ID: 38112911
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 03:15
Please humor me - MITH

Your good humor is my business.
 
116Boldwin
      ID: 38112911
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 03:26
And since we're talking about Obama's inclinations I think it's high time we revisit Obama's distinct lack of interest in the Iran Green revolution of '09 and conversely his moving heaven and earth getting Raila Odinga reinserted into the Kenya government after he had lost the election and signed a secret deal with the muslims in his country to establish sharia in muslim sections of the country.

Mighty selective outrage and busybody diplomacy.
 
117Boldwin
      ID: 38112911
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 03:33
Nor is he pressuring Mubarak to leave due to his allowing semi-official deadly perecution of coptic christians. Rather Obama is disturbed that the killers of coptics aren't given enuff freedom.
 
118Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 05:10
the present policy of destroying the Egypt - Isreal peace treaty by laying out the red carpet for the MB to take over.

If you mean to say that the administration's present Egypt policy is facilitating or at least welcoming - through actual policy a takeover by the MB, it still dosn't answer the question of what policy you're referring to. Bombastic metaphors for what what principles guide this unnamed mystery policy or what it will accomplish are cheap avoidances of the question of what the policy is.

You seem to be under the misconceptions that the only possibilities for Egypt's furture were a continued Mubarak dictatorship or a takeover by a Muslim Brotherhood - which isn't even the strongest power center in Egypt after Mubarak's party (that would be the military) and that contrary to the ir recent history, you seem certain that the MB is still committed to it's previous incarnation as a terrorist organization.

But even if you were correct on both of those counts (a generous hypothetical, since the first is definitely wrong and none of us can know the truth about the other) you still have yet to offer any actual ostensibly pro-MB policies effected by the administration.

I suspect that if pressed, you'd offer that any support for democracy in Egypt is in itself tacit support for certain theocratic caliphate implimented by the Muslim Brotherhood.

But what are the other options? Obama (and as I'm sure, Bush before him) has been pressing Mubarak on his human rights record, including the realization of a truly representative government. To flip flop on that now would expose American principles of freedom as a huge hypocrisy (which you inexplicably believe they should be!) to a population that already has very legitimate reasons to dislike and distrust us and which appears on the verge of wresting control of the nation of Egypt from it's dictator.

What good would tacit lip service for Mubarak do or have done for the US?

And what course of action would be preferable? - MITH

Stay the H out of Egypt's business.


This doesn't make any more sense than it did the first time you wrote it.

With regard to the current political strife there, I fail to see how Obama could realistically stay any further out of it. All he's done is maintain the same policy as was in place previous to his administration. Publicly, they acknowledge that Mubarak has been a reliable ally in the international sphere but that his human rights record (including the denial of democracy) is not acceptable. It's not the American position on him that has not changed, but the conditions and his status in Egypt.

Moreover, what in the world would staying any further the H out of Egypt's business have changed? By continuing the long standing American policy of publicly endorsing democracy, representative government and human rights, Obama might build on some of the foundation he laid with the Egyptian people in his 2009 speech there - a people that is distrustful of us for our decades of support for their oppression and now poised to replace their oppressor.

If he shuts down any commenting on or contact with the Egyptian, opposition, they will be no less likely to take over. They will almost certainly be even colder to the idea of maintaining a mutually beneficial relationship with us.

We don't demand Ahmadinejad step down immediately.

I'm not aware of Obama demanding that Mubarak step down immediately. You understand the way a contrasting analogy is supposed to work, yes...?

Hu Jintao... Kim Jong Il... Hugo Chavez...

WTF are we letting Obama mess with Mubarak?


Hilarious recalling how you poo-pooed exactly this line of argument when applied to the conquer of Iraq.

The obvious answer is that Obama hasn't "messed with" Mubarak. The Egyptian people did that all by themselves.

If you disagree, I'm sure I'm not the only one with baited breath waiting for details on Obama's elusive "messing with Mubarak" policy.

I think it's high time we revisit...

Obama's distinct lack of interest in the Iran Green revolution of '09


By all means, lay out the differences between his reactions to that event and this one.

his moving heaven and earth getting Raila Odinga reinserted into the Kenya government

For those unfamiliar with this particular slice of dementia from Boldy's brain, in this case "moving heaven and earth" refers to Obama speaking in 2006 at an AIDS awareness event at his ancestral village in Kenya, after he and Michelle took blood tests.

For further background, on the easily and thoroughly debunked Odinga liestart with post 425 here.

Rather Obama is disturbed that the killers of coptics aren't given enuff freedom.

No comment necessary.
 
119bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 07:30
The right seems to desire waiting to see what happens in Egypt, and then no matter what transpires, the right will be able complain, saying that Obama did nothing positive and screwed things up.

Typical of this thought process, Baldwin has made post after post indicating that his belief is that the Muslim Brotherhood will become THE power in Egypt, and that is something very evil, that they are inevitably our enemy is the surest thing in the known universe.

and they are going for a run of the entire domino table of muslim countries.

We know exactly what they want. A world-wide caliphate and world-wide sharia.


But asked what the US should do, he answers How about stay the H out of Egypt's business?

The US should do nothing when faced with a situation which would lead to its ruin?
 
120Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 08:08
For the record - from November 2010:
In a statement the Muslim Brotherhood vehemently opposed both the attack (by al Qaeda in Iraq on a Christian church in Iraq) and threat (by the same group aimed at Coptic Christians in the region) calling on all Muslims to unite and protect the holy places of all the monotheistic religions, stressing it was a religious duty. It emphasized that Islam was a religion which promoted only peace and tolerance. The MB described the attack as criminal and heinous.
Further:
The [New Year's Day Coptic church bombing in Alexandria] prompted opposition groups to collaborate and form a national committee to promote civil rights. Leaders from the Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Wafd Party, Al-Ghad, Al-Tagammu, Al-Gabha Party, Al-Wasat Party and the Kefaya Movement for Change met at Al-Wafd's headquarters on Saturday to declare a united stand against the attack.


The Muslim Brotherhood were among the first to denounce the attacks and renew claims that Islam explicitly forbids acts of terrorism and affirm their denouncement of the actions of whomever is responsible.
And two weeks after the NYD bombing:
Egypt's majority Muslim population stuck to its word Thursday night. What had been a promise of solidarity to the weary Coptic community, was honoured, when thousands of Muslims showed up at Coptic Christmas eve mass services in churches around the country and at candle light vigils held outside.

From the well-known to the unknown, Muslims had offered their bodies as "human shields" for last night's mass, making a pledge to collectively fight the threat of Islamic militants and towards an Egypt free from sectarian strife.
 
121DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 09:54
RE: 139, I'm reminded of this:

link
 
122Perm Dude -- out
      ID: 0151310
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 11:59
Probably worth noting what the Egyptians themselves are saying about the revolution.

Also, those ginning up to cut aid to Egypt should remember that nearly all of it is in the form of military aid as a result of the Camp David Accords. Cutting military aid right now probably isn't altogether smart if we want to continue to be at the table when all this settles out.

BTW, the CIA thinks Mabarak will step down tonight.

None of this matters to many on the Right, who insist on criticising Obama no matter what happens. such as Gingrich taking Obama to task for going against his envoy who suggested Marabak stay in power.

The problem with an all-Obama strategy is that sometimes the Right ends up sounding a little stupid.
 
123Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 16:16
and Mubarak with the big-time swerve!

everything thinks he called a press conference to resign, but nooooo, he is not resigning.

now, this $hit is getting real!
 
124Boldwin
      ID: 171501015
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 16:50
For starters...

I fail to see how Obama could realistically stay any further out of it. - MITH

I fail to see how Obama demanding that Mubarak leave NOW, resembles in any way staying the H out of Egypt's business.
 
125Boldwin
      ID: 171501015
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 17:01
For the record
 
126Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 19:02
Another in a "doesn't matter what Obama does, we're going to slam him anyway" reactions.

When the Right doesn't know what it wants (except to make Obama look bad) they come across as unprincipled.
 
127Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 21:35
It's like she's reading my mind...

The right-wing punditocracy’s sputtering reaction to the Obama Administration’s Egyptian diplomacy is a new low point in the melt-down of rationality on the right.
 
128Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 23:39
Post 125

From your hate site link:
President Obama has been clear on Egypt that the transition must begin now, and now means now,” a White House spokesperson was quoted as saying after Mubarak’s supporters engaged anti-government protesters in bloody street battles on Wednesday.
Robert Gibbs said this 8 days ago during a Q&A press briefing. I hadn't seen it, but if that was the White House's policy on Feb. 2nd, it doesn't appear to be so today.

I believe that was an attempt to pressure Mubarak into a quick transition, but knowing that the US is in no position to back up any actual demands (read: not eager to get messy in Egypt's business) Obama seems to have wisely abandoned that track at the first sign of Mubarak's resistance. There hasn't been any such language used by the President or his staff since then, over a week ago. In that time, the message has consistantly been one of support for a peaceful and inclusive transition, which should be inevitable this year, if not in the much shorter term.

I hardly think that an obviously toothless and since walked back (or at least shelved) statement from 8 days ago qualifies as the administration's present day policy regarding such a highly fluid situation. Pretty stupid thing to say. Obviously the US wouldn't have a problem with a transition schedule that occurs over some period of time if that is what is agreed upon by the concerned parties.
 
129Boldwin
      ID: 171501015
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 04:19
Yeah, in fact getting most every leader of the G8 countries to lean on him doesn't appear to indicate Obama policy to you.

I am getting worried about you lately. Disassociation from reality springs to mind describing your posts Thursday.

You think Obama isn't pressuring Mubarak to resign and that the party of Barney Frank is inordinately likely to resign in shame over a sex scandal. You think a court order to find a co-producer by a deadline doesn't constitute an order. Yesterday was a special day of posting for you.
 
130Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 04:59
Disassociation from reality springs to mind describing your posts

Yeesh put the mirror down.

I did miss Gibbs' comments from 9 days ago. And since the administration apparently very quickly abandoned or shelved that tactic, I'm willing to forgive myself for missing it.

I think Obama is pressuring Mubarak to begin the transition process, and that yesterday's stunt will likely increase Obama's resolve.
 
131Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 06:41
Heather McDonald at Secular Right
Although the “prop-up-Mubarak” position has recently solidified on talk radio and Fox News, during the early days of the Egyptian crisis, the only clear principle that emerged from the right was that Obama was wrong. The terrible complexity of the situation, the conundrums and impossible trade-offs, were never acknowledged.

Has the Obama Administration been totally consistent from day to day? No. Is it driven more by developing facts on the ground than driving those facts? Yes. And good luck to anyone who thinks that he can do better in this diplomatic and moral morass.
 
132Boldwin
      ID: 531111111
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 12:12
Friends in unlikely places. It's not easy being a friend of the USA is countries with many Islamist factions. Know your dominoes.

Hariri: Father killed by Islamists 2005, toppled recently by Islamists a minute or two after posing with Obama for pictures.

Mubarak: Resting in Sharm el-Sheikh while his attendents try and remove the knife from his back.

Saudi's Abdullah: Furious with the treatment of his good friend Mubarak. Apoplectic really.

Jordon's Abdullah II dancing quite a jig while the CFR connected try and cut him [and his American wife] off at the knees.

More to follow
 
133Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 14:18
More to follow

Don't bother. Your use of the term "dominoes" is ridiculous and Beckian. Go preach to fellow wingbats who care.
 
134bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 16:06
Some on the right seem to be Furious with the treatment of Mubarak. Apoplectic really. One must assume that they would be happy living under autocrats such as he.

Neither Abdullah seems to be going anywhere, which of course does please the right, as they too are autocrats. As friendly to the US as they are, we need to face up to the inevitable - sooner or later their subjects will become desirous of having some say in their governments

The right cries out for democracy and regime change in the Middle East. As long as they get to pick the winners.
 
135Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 22:38
Supporting dictators is often just a temporary fix anyway. Too often, they eventually fall. Recall that Reagan supported Marcos, who was forced to step down in the face of a populist uprising. Nixon, Ford and Carter supported Idi Amin, who was overthrown by neighboring countries after a failed expansionist campaign.

The truth is that Mubarak wasn't going to last much longer anyway. Even if he got past this movement and managed to stay on beyond the next election he's 79 years old. There is no guarantee that the next government will be as friendly to the US or that it will even successfully transition, given how the population would likely be boiling over at that point.
 
136Boldwin
      ID: 91281121
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 23:08
Democracies only work with certain types of populations. If I lived with the muslim brotherhood next door you can bet I'd breath easier if there was a boot on their neck.

If you think the USA founding fathers were worried about the momentary passions of the mob, you'd be right, but even they couldn't build a democracy for the likes of the MB.
 
137Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 23:13
They'd have supported the right of the Egyptian people to try, I'd bet.
 
138Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 23:15
And for the record I'd bet Egypt has a better chance than Iraq - despite not having democracy forced upon them at the barrel of an American gun.

On the contrary, they stood up to the barrels of American-provided guns to have their chance.
 
139Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 23:38
Yet somehow, the Founding Fathers built a democracy which has withstood (so far) the rise of the neocons.
 
140Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 05:47
Encouraging (for anyone not politically invested in the hope that Egypt explodes) results from a Feb 5th - 8th phone survey in Cairo and Alexandria, commissioned by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy
Key Findings:

This is not an Islamic uprising. The Muslim Brotherhood is gapprovedh by just 15%, and its leaders get barely 1% in a presidential straw vote. Asked to pick national priorities, just 12% choose shariah over national power, democracy, or economic development. Asked to explain the uprising, economic conditions, corruption, and unemployment (30]40% each) far outpace gregime not Islamic enoughh (7%).

Surprisingly, asked two different ways about the peace treaty with Israel, more support it (37%) than oppose it (22%). Only 18% approve of either Hamas or Iran. And a mere 5% say the uprising occurred because the regime is gtoo pro]Israel.h

El Baradei has very little popular support in a presidential straw vote (4%), far outpaced by Amr Musa (29%). But Mubarak and Omar Suleiman each get 18%.

A narrow plurality (36% vs. 29%) say Egypt should have good relations with the U.S. And just 8% say the uprising is against a gtoo pro]American regime.h Still, something over half disapprove of our handling of this crisis and say they donft trust the U.S. at all.
 
141Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 09:22
#131: See #127

#140: See #122a
 
142Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 09:42
D'oh!
 
143Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 02:18
Algeria next?
 
144Tree
      ID: 24115767
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 08:36
or maybe Yemen?
 
145Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 13:04
Oh, when those Algerian Islamists take over who spent years sneaking into towns and slitting everyone's throat for not being sufficiantly muslim...won't that be a feather in your cap?
In 1991-92, a federal election was held in Algeria. The results of the first round of elections showed that the fundamentalist Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) would win by a landslide. It was their intent to establish an Islamic State. The army took over the government of the country, annulled the election and created a military dictatorship.

The GIA announced that it intended to start a war of genocide to ethnically cleanse the country of all Jews, Christians, and Polytheists.

The new victims are largely ordinary citizens killed in their own homes.Often an entire village is wiped out. Nobody is spared, not even pregnant women, children or infants. They are raped, hacked to death, burned alive, mutilated, and shot.

By year's end, most commonly accepted casualty estimates were that 60,000 people had been killed during 5 years of turmoil."(2)

"In the past three months [1997-JUN to AUG] at least 1,500 civilians have been killed, may in horrific ways: hacked to death, burned alive, disemboweled, [sic] their throats slit." (3)
Because democracy is good.
 
146Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 13:45
Because democracy is good.

to you, Democracy is good when it's forced by the barrel of an American or Christian gun.

any other attempt at democracy is not.

you want to have your cake and eat it too.
 
147Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 14:18
MITH#140

Now that was a useful post, good find.

The one thing missing was an assessment of who is best organized to take advantage of a power vacuum.
 
148sarge33rd
      ID: 45072817
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 16:32
Odd isn't it? The 'right' fully endorses the previous administrations effort to force democracy, at VAST fiscal cost and life cost paid by Americans, at the barrel of a gun...in Iran. Yet these same people, seem to be in opposition to Egypt's OWN CITIZENS, uprising to FOUND a democracy in their own country.

Where would these folks have stood I wonder, in 1775 Boston? My guess? Firmly behind "King and country".
 
149Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 17:35
It's only a democracy as long as you can keep it.

Give Algeria or Yemen a democracy and it would turn into a totalitarian mullah'ocracy or competing warlord camps quicker than you could blink.

Lebanon, Iran...these are cases that might be able to democratically keep the mullah's at bay like they have so far in Pakistan more or less.

In some cases if the elections were finally fair as real elections in Iran would produce a modern livable country for example, sometimes I wonder if Pakistan doesn't stay democratic because the secular forces manage to keep their thumb on the scale.

People who reflexively promote democracy [both on the left and right] are overlooking some caveats that wiser people have long noted.

It works great where the population is virtuous. But what if the majority has a genocidal hatred for the minority? What if the majority has a murderous hatred for the minority religions or races? What if the citizens are so poorly educated that they are easily misled by bad leaders? What if they are so inclined to ignore the law that a velvet glove does not suffice to produce a lawful country? It takes a very well prepared population to make a democracy work.

I know, I know, you are going to accuse me of cultural imperialism and blaming the victim and nativist feelings of superiority but democracy has weaknesses that can be barely if at all overcome in some circumstances. That's the truth.
 
150Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 17:41
You could just as well be speaking of the love of Christ instead of Democracy (and your series of good questions could very easily be directed at today's GOP).

Promoting good is always a good thing. As is democracy.
 
151Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 17:54
Stalin and Hitler were elected.
 
152Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 18:12
Such a lover of democracy, one who would dictate every facet of my life 'for my own good'.
 
153Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 18:52
Such a lover of democracy, one who would dictate every facet of my life 'for my own good'.

you are the one, who on more than one occasion, has said that the only reason you are here is for "our own good", to save, and protect us from our own ignorance.
 
154Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 19:11
You miss the point that while Stalin and Hitler were elected, the moment they ceased democracy in their countries is the moment their democratic election lost meaning.

If your feeling is that democratically elected people can turn into dictators, my response is "So what?" Since the only way to elect democratic leaders is through a democratic process.

I have no idea of what #152 means.
 
155Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 19:17
I have no idea of what #152 means. - PD

I have no idea what you think the commerce clause doesn't allow you to push on me.
 
156Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 19:20
You realize that I'm not a member of SCOTUS, yes? You can rant and rail all you want, but SCOTUS is the body which ruled on the Commerce Clause.

You should read up on it. You won't find my name mentioned, which will be a bonus for you.
 
157Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 19:23
"Since organs are transported across state lines all your organs are belong to us."
 
158Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 19:39
Blame the Supreme Court. And the Founding Fathers.
 
159Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 19:43
I blame the people who picked the judges. Certainly the FF had no idea some idiots would ban a farmer from planting his own seed and feeding his own grain to his own cattle based on that clause.
 
160Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 20:12
Sure. But it was the Founding Fathers who wrote such a open-ended clause, particularly the Necessary and Proper Clause. And both Democratic and Republican SCOTUS majorities have supported it.

I'm not in favor of Wickard (as I pointed out quite clearly, to you, in the other thread). Nor am I in favor of Kelo.

Regardless, your pique, directed at me personally, is misplaced. Not that you'd ever admit that.
 
161Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 23:31
But it was the Founding Fathers who wrote such a open-ended clause

Which goes to further prove my point. Democracy requires a responsible citizenry who won't abuse it.
 
162Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 00:16
Which goes to further prove my point. Democracy requires a responsible citizenry who won't abuse it.

That's a ridiculous point. Who, exactly, decides what defines a 'responsible' citizenry.

I don't think someone who thinks it's perfectly OK to publicly put one's political opponents in crosshairs has much credibility lecturing anyone about a non-abusive responsible citizenry.
 
163Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 03:01
A starting point would be citizens who don't demand things that can only end up destroying the democracy.

Sustainability.

Citizens who don't demand the government run up a debt higher than the cumulative wealth of the entire world.

Citizens who don't give so much power to the government that it turns into a tyranny.

Citizens who don't strain the justice system to the breaking point.

Citizens who are vigilant towards threats to their democracy.

Majorities who resist the urge to vote themselves into parasitic lifestyles.
 
164Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 07:12
Add to that:

Citizens who don't try to legislate morality.

Citizens who would put equal amounts of money into education as they would the military.

Citizens who don't put religion into government.

Citizens who don't look at race, creed, color, religion, or sexual orientation as an opportunity to belittle, belabor, or discriminate in ANY way.

and so on...
 
165Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 08:34
I have an interesting quote from none other than George Soros, the devil himself, saying [and I paraphrase] democracy is only as good as the quality of the citizens.

Now there is a guy who might use righthaven if I had screwed up and posted a quote.
 
166biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 08:54
Do you really think that some human populations are of lower quality, on average, than others?

I think societies succeed or fail depending on the governing structures in place that allow the the better citizen's voices to be heard, while filtering out the crack-pots and those with ill-intent.
 
167Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 09:14
A starting point would be citizens who don't demand things that can only end up destroying the democracy.

Again, credibility issue, coming from someone who casually abuses the word "destroy."

Personally, I have a big problem with a government that says,

"Sorry, Mr. Citizen, you can't participate because you're demanding things that can only end up destroying the democracy."

Your entire starting point is a threat to democracy.





 
168Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 09:36
PV

If you are so sure of yourself and democracy try this thot experiment.

Waziristan breaks away and forms a democracy. It could never happen because their religious beliefs preclude democracy, but...Imagine any way that forms a country that respects human rights, that you would consider livable, and recognizes the rights of other countries to even exist.
 
169Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 10:01
I'm not interested in "thot experiments" about Waziristan, which is completely foreign to a discussion about social network wars. Egypt is a fairly modern society, where social networking is prevalent. The Egyptian economy is fueled by foreign investment and tourism as much as domestic elements.

It's like discussing rapid transit in Chicago and suddenly throwing in a remote Eskimo village in Alaska as being somehow relevant.


 
170Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 10:08
Which religion's beliefs, exactly, preclude democracy?
 
171Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 10:46
Re the "starting points" in #163, It should be noted that the FFs (or at least enough of them to see their particular vision realized) did indeed think the same way.

They believed that an electorate of such broadly disparate backgrounds as lived in the colonies could not be trusted to sustain the values that the union was founded on - and this was a generation before the first post-colonial immigration waves had started.

This ideolgy would become a blight on our history that remnants of still remain today.

It took the United States until the Jackson Administration to drop land ownership requirements for national elections. It wasn't until the 15th Amendment that American democracy included non-whites - but not any women, they've had the vote for still less than a century. And only in the past 50 years were the last of the discriminatory voting requirements finally dissolved in our 234 year-old country, ensuring minorities and the poor the right to vote in elections. And still in many places a convicted felon cannot vote.

If we believe liberty is an "inalienable" right, then we believe Egyptians deserve their chance at democracy. If their chances of success are poor (and really I have no idea what their chances are) then that and the potential resulting problems are unfortunate and perhaps something we should talk about preparing for. But it doesn't change that our founding ideal is that freedom is a natural right.

I'm sorry but that trumps whatever happens to be most convenient for America's foreign policy at the moment.
 
172Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 10:56
Egypt is entirely analogous to Iran. All it took was one turn in power for a totalitarian religious movement to forever preclude democracy [without outside intervention]. If anything the Iranian citizen was/is even better educated, wealthier and modern thinking.

A 'democracy' in which the mullahs hold veto power over who can run and can annul anything the government does, is not a democracy.

A hijacking aided and abetted by Jimmy Carter delivered t5he Iranian citizens into the arms of those hijackers.

In Waziristan such a state of affairs would get voted in. Maybe in Algeria too.

So you have to ask yourself if you still feel democracy is always the answer.
 
173Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 11:00
Let's try another thot experiment we are dangerously close to trying in real life.

What if democrats in America decided they liked the sheep-life so much they were willing to cede every dollar and every decision to their beloved public sector overlords.

Would that be a democracy in any positive sense? Ask the minority.
 
174Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 11:04
You have a Michael Moore-like timeline on Iran, Boldwin. There was never a free and democratic election. Khomeini rejected the provisional government even before he arrived back there.

If you had a point before, it has been lost in increasingly irrelevant "thought experiments."
 
175Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 11:05
Such forceful arguments that a people cannot be trusted with their own liberty doesn't do much for your credibility of your comments on maybe 85% of the topics we've covered.
 
176Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 11:07
Nor is the argument that some of that untrustworthiness flows from religious beliefs.

:)
 
177Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 11:21
If anything the Iranian citizen was/is even better educated, wealthier and modern thinking.

Really? Please explain the influence of social networking in 1979.

And as long as you're accusing Carter of aiding and abetting Iranian citizens into the arms of hijackers, let's throw Reagan into the mix for aiding and abetting the Iran/Iraq War, which resulted in the loss of life for millions of these citizens you pretend to care about.



 
178Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 11:28
Nor is the argument that some of that untrustworthiness flows from religious beliefs.

:)
- PD

You especially need not humor yourself with the idea I support all religious belief.

 
179Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 11:29
PV

Who are you suggesting Reagan should have supported?
 
180Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 11:33
But it doesn't change that our founding ideal is that freedom is a natural right. - PV

True, but let me suggest a new corollary. All people deserve a guide who isn't waving them into a pit.
 
181Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 11:51
Thousands hit the streets in Iran.
IRANIAN protesters took to the streets of capital Tehran for a major rally overnight in support of Arab revolts, while fresh anti-government protests were reported in Yemen and Bahrain.

By midday local time, more than 4000 people gathered in central Tehran's Azadi Square, with many more streaming in, The Wall Street Journal reported.
Start weighing Obama's response against what he did in Egypt.

Let's see if he is as interested in pro-western values Iranian democracy protesters as he is in propelling the MB to power.
 
182Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 12:05
Start weighing Obama's response against what he did in Egypt.

Let's see if he is as interested in pro-western values Iranian democracy protesters as he is in propelling the MB to power.


Let's first weigh the $1.5 billion we send a year to Egypt each year against the $0 we send to Iran as to possible effectiveness of response.

Doesn't it bother you cheering for the MB to take power in Egypt just so you can say Obama lost Egypt like Carter lost Iran?

Ha! I'm asking a guy who isn't bothered that Reagan supported a tyrant who murdered millions.
 
183Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 13:37
All people deserve a guide who isn't waving them into a pit.

And your preception of the absence of any precludes that right?

Once again the ideology that held off suffrage here.
 
184Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 19:54
Doesn't it bother you cheering for the MB to take power in Egypt just so you can say Obama lost Egypt like Carter lost Iran?

No it bothers me that we are more than likely looking at a serious Islamist threat many many times more dangerous than what we thot 9/11 was. WWIII possibly.

It also bothers me that christians are about to get a persecution of unprecedented proportions.

It also bothers me that a dufus like Obama's U.S. Intel Director is willing to look us in the eye and say the Muslim Brotherhood isn't religious.

Just think about that.

Maybe the new congress can scoop out some CIA and save us a whole lotta money.
 
185Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 19:59
Egypt is entirely analogous to Iran.

Maybe the correct analysis would transpose the countries.

Protesters burn a picture of the late Ayatollah Khomeini and Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Hoseyni Khamenei. The demonstrators can be heard to chant "Mubarak, Ben Ali, now it's Seyyed Ali's turn."
link
 
186Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 12:28


"The conspiracies that we know are coming but might never happen are the most dangerous," Colbert said, "because if they might never happen, how will we know if we stopped it?"

Classic.
 
187Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 15:14
Credit where due:

 
188Boldwin
      ID: 441162018
      Sun, Feb 20, 2011, 20:40
The Yuppie Revolution In Egypt Is Over, The Islamist Revolution Has Begun - The blog, Le·gal In·sur·rec·tion
When it came to overthrowing Hosni Mubarek, the western media thrust itself into the situation and portrayed the uprising as a western-style demand for freedom.

The television screens were filled with stories of relatively western figures such as Google employee Wael Ghonim, who became the face of the new Egypt -- educated, professional, and desirous of freedom as we know it.

Now that Mubarek is gone, the western media mostly has moved on to the next revolution, secure in the perception that Egypt is moving in the right direction.

But that is a false comfort. As I posted yesterday, over a million Egyptians turned out in Tahrir Square last Friday to cheer the vile anti-Semitic Sunni cleric Sheik Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who had been exiled by Mubarek [say hello to Sunni Ayatollah Khomeini 2.0, say goodby to the modern secular revolution of your cheap and easy illusions - B], and who espouses the fundamentalist Islamic view that Jews must live as Dhimmis under Islamic control. Instead of accurately reporting the significance of this event, The New York Times whitewashed the cleric as someone who supports a "a pluralistic, multiparty, civil democracy."

...with the crowd chanting:

"To Jerusalem We go, for us to be the Martyrs of the Millions." Where was the western hero Ghonim?

He tried to take the microphone to speak to the crowd, presumably to preach his western values, but he was kept off the stage by Sheik al-Qaradawi's security.

[The Muslim Brotherhood is not religious, we are told by Obama's Director of National Security - B]

But you probably haven't heard that, because it was not widely reported...

This is the problem with those, like Roger Cohen in The New York Times, who glorify the "Arab Street." Ghonim was not the face of the "Arab Street," he merely was a face to which western media could relate.

Will the western media be as vigorous in exposing what is going on now in Egypt as it was in exposing the wrongs of Mubarek? I think not, because the truth -- that the western media acted as willing dupes once again -- hits too close to home.

As for Ghonim, expect him to follow the path of the intelligentsia wherever Islamist forces have taken control. He'll move to the United States, where he will sit down for another 60 Minutes interview lamenting what has become of his beloved Egypt.

 
189Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 01:55
The guy clearly isn't going to suck at the teat of the United States. And that is a problem for the Right.

He began his sermon by saying that he was discarding the customary opening “Oh Muslims,” in favor of “Oh Muslims and Copts,” referring to Egypt’s Coptic Christian minority. He praised Muslims and Christians for standing together in Egypt’s revolution and even lauded the Coptic Christian “martyrs” who once fought the Romans and Byzantines. “I invite you to bow down in prayer together,” he said.

He urged the military officers governing Egypt to deliver on their promises of turning over power to “a civil government” founded on principles of pluralism, democracy and freedom. And he called on the army to immediately release all political prisoners and rid the cabinet of its dominance by officials of the old Mubarak government.


freaking radical.
 
190Boldwin
      ID: 441162018
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 04:23
Yes, let's all of us, Copts and muslims, march to Jerusalem and die as martyrs.

kumbaya
 
191Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 09:09
Ha! Nice response. Well researched, timely, and persuasive.

You are correct in everything you say, sir.
 
192Tree
      ID: 60121615
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 09:28
You are correct in everything you say, sir.

so much so, that you want to subscribe to his newsletter, right?
 
193Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 10:06
While I don't subscribe to Baldwin's hysterically premature say hello to Sunni Ayatollah Khomeini 2.0, say goodby to the modern secular revolution of your cheap and easy illusions,

al-Qaradawi is an influential and potentially dangerous voice in Egypt. He appears to be somewhat of a chameleon, changing his rhetoric depending on what group he's addressing at the time.
There's no indication that the Egyptian military supports him, other than to allow him to re-enter Egypt, but it will be important to track his actions as developments proceed.
 
194Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 19:58
We may start seeing a lot more of this. Two Libya Air Force pilots refuse to bomb citizens, defect to Malta.
 
195Boldwin
      ID: 202591810
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 16:12
The neocon dream does not produce the results they want you to think it does.
 
196Boldwin
      ID: 202591810
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 16:47
If only women were in charge then we'd have peace.
 
197Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 19:22
Serious posters will want to know Fukuyama well.
“There’s something very gratifying about the Middle East demonstrating that Islam is not at odds with the democratic currents that have swept up other parts of the world,” he says. “But what’s most important, actually, is what happens next.” That is, of course, the messy, often contentious process of engineering democracy. These are complicated places—despotic rule has stunted political parties (or, as in Libya, erased them entirely) and gutted civil society. That’s where the real trouble begins. On the “Arab Spring,” he’s bearish. “I guarantee you in a year or two it will not look as hopeful. It’s the whole point of my book. You need institutions, leaders—and corruption has to be under control. These are really the failings of many democracy movements. And it’s happening again—if you look at Egypt, the liberal parties are floundering.”
 
198Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 22:46
Radial Islamist groups gaining stranglehold in Egypt - Telegraph




Mohammed Badie, the Muslim Brotherhood's spiritual leader, last week predicted the group's candidates would win 75 per cent of the seats it contested Photo: AFP/GETTY

"The Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's largest Islamic movement and the founder of Hamas, has set up a network of political parties around the country that eclipse the following of the middle class activists that overthrew the regime. On the extreme fringe of the Brotherhood, Islamic groups linked to al-Qeada are organising from the mosques to fill the vacuum left by the collapse of the dictatorship."

The military-led government already faces accusations that it is bowing to the surge in support for the Muslim movements, something that David Cameron warned of in February when he said Egyptian democracy would be strongly Islamic.

Fundamentalist factions have also emerged as parties. Gamaa al-Islamiya, an al-Qaeda linked group that promotes Salafist traditions has used its mosques as a political base for the first time since the 1970s.

But the April 6th movement that spearheaded protests has no clear plan for party politics. Diplomats have warned the demonstrators are not well prepared for elections.

"The leadership of the protests was so focused on the street-by-street detail of the revolution, they have no clue what to do in a national election," said a US official involved in the demonstrations. "Now at dinner the protesters can tell me every Cairo street that was important in the revolution but not how they will take power in Egypt."
 
199Boldwin
      ID: 35462217
      Sun, May 22, 2011, 18:23
Of course, like everywhere else, it's not a pro-democracy thing.

It's an Alawite vs Muslim Brotherhood thing.

This sunni majority state is controlled by an Alawite minority who the majority do not even consider real muslims.
a deeply syncretic creed that in every era adopted elements of the region’s dominant faith – Byzantine Eastern Orthodoxy, Sunni and later Shi’a Islam, Crusader Catholicism – while maintaining its own suspicious insularity...

Far worse is their doctrinal affinity with Christianity, and with pre-Islamic pagan rites like the Persian New Year, Nowruz.

Alawites “believe in reincarnation, regard the Pillars of Islam as purely symbolic, do not fast during Ramadan or make pilgrimage to Mecca, have no mosques or indeed any public worship, celebrate Christmas, Easter and Epiphany, and traditionally wear crosses like Christians,” according to University of Haifa linguist John Myhill.

The idea of God’s reincarnation in human form is central to Alawite belief, Myhill said, explaining that Alawites believe in “seven cycles,” or reincarnations of God in both revealed and hidden forms.

For example, Adam (God’s revealed form) returned to Earth in the hidden guise of Abel, Moses returned as Joshua Ben-Nun, Jesus as Peter and Muhammad as Ali. Like Christians, Alawites also worship a “holy trinity” – in their case, Ali, Muhammad and Salman the Persian, a companion of Muhammad who helped lay siege to Medina during the Islamic Conquest.

IN THE Ottoman era, Alawites were persecuted as infidels, forced to pay heavy taxes and mostly worked as indentured servants or tenant farmers for Sunni landowners.

The advent of French rule after World War I ushered in a golden age for the once down trodden sect, which was granted short-lived autonomy as the “Alawite State” on Syria’s coast in the 1920s and ’30s. Colonial authorities hoping to stem Sunni nationalism propped up the Alawites and other Syrian minorities, giving them preferential treatment in the army and laying the groundwork for today’s Alawite-dominated military.
-----------
The one significant challenge to Assad the father’s rule – a 1982 Muslim Brotherhood revolt in the central city of Hama – was brutally quashed, with security forces killing an estimated 20,000-30,000 people.
This makes their pragmatic and strange behavior comprehensible. Self-preservation and posturing from a minority perched ever so precariously. A great deal goes on under the surface in this country where nothing is as it seems.
 
200Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, May 25, 2011, 10:18
Some interesting observations about the roots of the Arab Spring, via Andrew Sullivan.
 
201Boldwin
      ID: 0423023
      Tue, May 31, 2011, 00:06
Egyptian military, you remember, the sane part of the situation.
 
202Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, May 31, 2011, 22:49
A long but nuanced article about the state of Egypt, and why they have taken baby steps ahead despite it all.
 
203Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jun 06, 2011, 13:08
Yemeni president leaves country, might not be allowed back in.
 
204boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 16:15
Since I just returned from London, where I witnessed one of the riots I am not surprised to see that the west reacts just as quickly as the Muslim countries to crack down on social media as first sign of unrest.
 
205Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 17:07
Where did you see riots? Was your takeaway from the the riots that the government reacted too harshly?
 
206boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 17:45
It was one of the smaller ones in the Bethel Green area of London. I was actually surprised by the general friendliness/positive attitude they had for the situation. With that said that was earlier the day before things started to get more out of control. That 24 hours were kind of surreal no one was on the streets and all you heard were police sirens and helicopters and the next day in areas where people thought there could be trouble were empty of people and everything was shut down with all the stores looking like they were preparing for a hurricane.

My general impression was not that they over reacted but they reacted slowly. I think they were caught off guard especially when things broke out in areas that are not know as trouble spots. With that said it was clear to me even before riots that London has problems, people like to complain about imbalances in wealth here there is seems to be flaunted on every corner.

The moment for me was the picture I wish I had thought to take and that was that of Aston Martin pulling out in front of the riot police with a car burning in the back ground.
 
207Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 06:05
Right now there are radical professors fanticizing flash mob faux/arab spring revolutions and black gangs perfecting the method all over america. They are shutting down sections of Chicago, Philly, etc. with repeated flash mob gang crimes.

It all seems innocent and unrelated until people start losing an eye.
 
208Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 08:38
Such a thing can't really happen here unless it happens on an epic scale like the Rodney King riots. There are too many guns. On the flip side, the loss of life in England has been incredibly low and the riots were put down without much use of force. Incredible to see. I agree, boikin, the British police was very slow to react but they did get it quelled effectively without much collateral damage. I have been living in London for the past few months and the closest I got to the riots was Islington, which was about a 1.5 mile half from Tottenham where it all started with a legitimate, peaceful protest of a potentially innocent man gunned down by police.
 
209Tree
      ID: 44721188
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 09:21
I love that the radical right has now bastardized the term "flash mob" to be something sinister. Lol #laughingattheirbuffoonary
 
210Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 10:14
It is so cute how they try out these new phrases from the kids.
 
211Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 12:54
1) They had to close down Chicago beaches this year because of them.

2) It's widespread and now called Flash Robs". If you were actually up with the times.
 
212Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 13:21
It's widespread

Of course, that depends on your definition of widespread, and anyone who uses terms like lamestream media obviously can't be trusted to provide accurate definitions.

The link in #211 mentioned about 5 incidents of flash robs. I'm sure there are many that weren't mentioned in the article, and while it is certainly cause for alarm, it's hardly widespread, like, say drive-by shootings, an adjective usually reserved for the media from this source.
 
213Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 13:58
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, if I say it's black, it must be white.
 
214DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 14:08
Not necessarily, but if I were in Vegas placing a bet on it, that'd be where I'd be putting my rent money.
 
215DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 14:09
On a more serious note:

*drudgesiren.jpg*

Criminals use technology to communicate. This has never happened before in the history of mankind. Clearly, Twitter must be abolished in the name of freedom.
 
216Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 17:16
2) It's widespread and now called Flash Robs". If you were actually up with the times.

you're talking about two entirely different things. flash mobs are still flash mobs, despite the Right's attempt to co-opt the term, take something fun, and use it for something more sinister.

Flash Robs are what they are. they are something more sinister, and they're not at all related to the traditional flash mob.

but, i don't expect you to understand that. after all, i wasn't the one involved in flash mobs in NYC 5 years ago - roughly pre-dating your knowledge of the term by 4 years, 338 days.
 
218Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Sep 05, 2011, 00:37
And I was so sure the place would look just like Jackson Hole by now.
 
219Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 05, 2011, 00:39
In springtime.
 
220Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Sep 11, 2011, 04:13
Isreal feeling the heat of the muslim world's fall to islamists radicals. - NYT

What I said.
 
221Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Sep 11, 2011, 12:50
I guess a stance which basically involves "I'll piss all over you because I want to" has come back to bite them. Who knew?

The sooner evangelical "Christians" in the United States stop propping up an unnecessarily confrontational Israeli government, the sooner we'll have movement there.
 
222Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Sep 11, 2011, 14:58
Islamists will never move in the direction you dream they will.
 
223soxzeitgeist
      ID: 248221115
      Sun, Sep 11, 2011, 16:22
And neither will the hard right, reactionary evangelical christians in this country.

Never ceases to amaze me that no one hates a true believer like a true believer.
 
224Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Sep 11, 2011, 16:30
Ah yes, nothing so virtuous as someone who doesn't believe in anything. If only we had more of those. Then we'd be happy.
 
225sarge33rd
      ID: 138411112
      Sun, Sep 11, 2011, 18:04
NOT being Christian, is not the same as believing in nothing. Atheism, is the belief IN...mankind.
 
226Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Sep 11, 2011, 18:11
People who think they are god aren't an improvement.
 
227sarge33rd
      ID: 138411112
      Sun, Sep 11, 2011, 18:43
said the man with the god complex.
 
228Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Sep 11, 2011, 22:40
Not cowering in the face of your relentless emotional Alinski bully tactics is not the same thing as a god complex. Self assurance based on being in agreement with the smartest person in the universe, is not a god complex.
 
229Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Sep 11, 2011, 23:00
Not cowering in the face of your relentless emotional Alinski bully tactics is not the same thing as a god complex. Self assurance based on being in agreement with the smartest person in the universe, is not a god complex.

you're right.

but you still have a god complex, if not a messiah complex.
 
230Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 00:26
"if I am for myself, what am I? If I am not for myself who will be for me?"
 
231Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 01:16
"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. "

yea, i can quote Hillel too. too bad you don't follow this quotation as well.
 
232Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 01:23
I think he would understand being surrounded by such determined enemies that even his friends were afraid to come to his aid.

In such a situation, self-assurance is not a character flaw. It is paramount.
 
233Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 11:42
In such a situation, self-assurance is not a character flaw. It is paramount.

never mind the fact you got the quote wrong, and the reversal that you performed changes the meaning, but you really have NO idea what Hillel meant if you think his remarks have anything to do with self-assurance.

it's about taking care of one's self. but in a healthy way - both physically and mentally. Doing such things put you in a place where you're also better to other people.

it's about the need to put one's self first, but not at the expense of the feelings of others. it's about doing something to make one's self feel good, but at the same time, brightening the lives of others (this is the challenge Sox called you out on, about what have YOU done for your community, a challenge you refused to meet because there's nothing there).

and that last line, "if not now, when", has everything to do with doing it now. Stop putting off that trip to donate clothes - do it now!

but you twisted it, and made it about yourself and not about others. and the fact you did that, is not the least bit shocking.



 
234Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 13:06
It's really all about your feelings and how I've made the bully sad. I see.
 
235sarge33rd
      ID: 318171211
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 13:13
but you twisted it, and made it about yourself...

For proof of this, simply peruse the 9/11 remembered thread. With one exception, each post there is about shock, about compassion for others. The one I refer to? Was about self, about how *I* wont be changed by this.

1 guess, whose that 1 post is.
 
236biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 13:18
That you think we are "enemies" speaks volumes.

I'm concerned for your mental health.
 
239Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 14:05
Sarge

Wallowing in grief is like a force multiplier for terrorists.
 
242Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 14:16
bili

And heaven forbid you ever fight fire with fire. Oh how they'd twist that!
 
243biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 14:22
Not to take away from agreement that you and tree should cease to interact, I'm pretty confident you are the only one on this board who has read alinski.

I'm also pretty sure noone here would have even heard of him, but for you.
 
245Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 14:29
bili

I'm also pretty sure noone here would have even heard of him, but for you. - bili

Radicals have used Alinski so assiduously that baby radicals pick those tactics up in their mother's milk.
 
246Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 14:31
the fact that Bili has concerns about your mental health - something i've expressed for a couple years now - speaks volumes. - T

Yes, that mob psychology works.
 
247biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 14:32
I also think you are the only true radical on this board.
 
248Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 14:33
I, for one, don't think Boldwin has a "god complex." I believe he now holds his politics the same way he holds his religion: Inflexible, subject to no error, and to be defended at all costs.

He has, like many on the Far Right, fused his politics and religion (to the detriment of both, but that's another thread). It is why he does not apologize, doesn't care whether he alienates everyone else, strives to paint himself as a martyr often, and will go to extreme lengths to "prove" a point, only to let it drop for a time (picking it up later without adjustment) when it is clear that the "proof" doesn't actually back up his points.

Every time, for years now, a political point of his is challenged he responds exactly as if we attacked a theological point from his religion.
 
249Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 14:53
PD

I put a lot more effort into discovering the truth than the average person and once those hard won truths are achieved it takes extraordinary evidence to the contrary to shake them. Because I have so much proof.

You, PD on the otherhand, have a taste for the universal faith aka zeitgeist which has long since sailed past the religion of your forefathers.
 
250Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 14:57
PD

And my religious views are quite disconnected from my political observations.

I put no faith in politics to benefit me even to the least degree. All my hope is in God.
 
251Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 15:39
I'm pretty confident you are the only one on this board who has read alinski.

I'm also pretty sure noone here would have even heard of him, but for you.


interestingly, i had the same thought when i was accused of using Alinski-esque tactics. i had never heard of him until Baldwin invoked the phrase, and i honestly don't know his tactics at all, other than what Baldwin claims they are. if i am using them, i must be one hell of a quick learn, and no where near the moron Baldwin repeatedly claims i am.

 
252Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 15:51
And my religious views are quite disconnected from my political observations.

Name one. One single religious view that is at odds with your politics.
 
253DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 15:53
Sorry Tree, the folks at Fine Homebuilding know you're a Marxist and a disciple of Alinski, so it must be true.
 
254Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 16:12
Yeah, everyone in the French revolution was a genius when they figured out how to boo in unison too.
 
255DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 16:29
link
 
256Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 16:59
My political views are just observations.

Like that the philosophical base of liberalism denies individual rights. That's an observation.

like that the denial of individual justice leads to gulags and re-education camps. That's an observation.

Like that I don't like to live in gulags. Ok, that's personal but it's not religious. None of those three things is religious, except that they involve your religion.
 
257sarge33rd
      ID: 318171211
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 17:03
actually B...you have it bassackwards. You truly do.

It is the RIGHT not the Left; trying to establish a singular religion/morality compass/view. Thereby denying the individuals rights.

It is the Right, who pushed for and engaged in, confining or persons w/o benefit of legal representation or even legal proceedings. All in direct violation of US Constitutional Law and the WHY, it was done off-shore.
 
259Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 17:43
I wish that I could tell you that no one associated with the right has ever had a conversation like this.

Alas, I cannot.

Nevertheless the philosophical base of free market capitalism depends on individual rights and individual justice and respect for private property. Marxism requires the eventual elimination of individual rights.
 
260Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 17:50
There are no marxists posting on these boards.
 
261biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 17:55
Your great flaw here is seeing Marxists under every bush, when in reality there are none of any political significance in existence. Until you can let go of your bogeyman, every pronouncement you make will continue to be deeply flawed to the point where it makes you look ridiculous.

I repeat: as far as I can discern, you alone have radical beliefs in this forum.
 
262Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 17:56
Sure, right. Thotful people should pause and contemplate that that group in #259,link 1 now control the camps built by that group in #259,link 2.
 
263DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 18:03
If you actually believed in and worked for individual rights and individual justice 10% as much as your rhetoric demands of others, this would be a much more interesting conversation.

Unfortunately, they're meaningless buzzwords that you use when they're convenient and shunt to the side when they conflict with your personal beliefs on any number of issues -- much like everyone else. That you even think you can claim any sort of moral high ground here is the height of hubris (but not really surprising).
 
264sarge33rd
      ID: 318171211
      Mon, Sep 12, 2011, 18:53
B, honestly; I totally get that you have to stand for what you think is 'right'. I really, really do. But sometimes, not always, sometimes...when it seems that the rest of the world is telling you that you are wrong? Its because you are.
 
265Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Sep 27, 2011, 20:52
Britain's ambassador to Syria starts a blog.
 
266Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 22:31
We've progressed to the middle stage now. No more denial, no more blather about how it was really a secular revolution. It's starting to sink in that the 'Arab Spring' was really the Islamist Takeover'.

But now we are in denial that that is a bad thing.
Islamists’ Victory in Tunisia a Win for Democracy: Noah Feldman - Bloomberg
Absolutely insane take on it. It would be like calling Iran today a model of democracy.
 
267Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 22:35
Oh, and these Islamists know who their friends and co-conspirators are and they repay favors.
Tahrir Square protesters send message of solidarity to Occupy Wall Street - The Guardian
 
268Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 12:40
Yes, doing the right thing makes for strange bedfellows.
 
269Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 16:23
Getting ahead of the curve in Qatar.
 
270Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 13:35
Syria, bloodiest day ever.

A bloodbath there. Really, really horrible stuff.
 
271Boldwin
      ID: 2510471511
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 13:51
But not as bloody as the day the Syria sunni's overpower Syria's Alawites.

Did it even occur to you to check out how many Libyans were summarily executed by your 'arab spring freedom fighters'?

How many residents of Sirte are alive today? Wanna take a guess?
 
272bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 15:21
So you are saying that although a bloodbath, it really isn't so bad - or are you saying that it isn't actually a bloodbath because there may be a worse one in the future?
 
273Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 15:55
No, biba, you should know this by now, when a Arab strongman kills his subjects, it's not a bloodbath, he's mearly protecting his people from Islamists (and we should supoort him, duh!) However, when Islamists kill Arabs, it's a bloodbath. When Islamists take power and don't kill anyone, just you wait...
 
274Boldwin
      ID: 3410581515
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 16:58
When Islamists take power and don't kill anyone

Ding! Ding Ding!

We have a winner in the 'unclear on the concept' category.
 
275Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 17:09
are you holding up a mirror again?
 
276bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 20:20
And if one was clear on the concept, I am lead to believe that the world would be a better place if Ben Ali were still President and Ghannouchi Prime Minister of Tunisia - and Bashir was still in power in The Sudan - and Mubarak still ruled in Egypt - and Saddam still was alive and well ruling in Iraq - and Gaddafi had all his powers back while he contained the Arabs in Libya - and everyone would just quit hassling poor ol Assad in Syria, because after all he is just containing the Islamist hordes.

I can just hear Louie singing about What a Wonderful World before the mobs began demanding more of a say in how their governments ruled over their lives.
 
277sarge33rd
      ID: 5410381514
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 20:22
You forgot that freedom fighter OBL in Afghanistan/Pakistan.
 
278Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 21:03
Guys just like you were telling me the same thing when the Shah of Iran was driven down by western liberals on behalf of islamists, islamists who are about get the BOMB any day now.

I hear a duet with Neville Chamberlain.

All is well. Ignore what they say when we aren't around.
Numerous Iranian leaders have expressed their willingness to sacrifice millions of Iranian citizens to the cause. One of Ahmadinejad’s predecessors Akbar Rafsanjani, considered the leading candidate to replace ailing Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, is on record as declaring it “not irrational to contemplate a nuclear exchange with Israel” on the grounds that even one nuclear bomb would devastate Israel. A 2006 fatwa issued by clerics in the Shiite holy city of Qom provides religious sanction for nuclear war. Already in 1980, the Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Iranian revolution, stressed that the mullahs do not worship Iran but only Al-lah, and that the destruction of Iran would not be too great a price to pay for the triumph of Islam over the infidels. - Jonathan Rosenblum, Cross Currents
Yeah, what could go wrong if the current despot loses. Thanks for that Iran advice, liberals.
 
279bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 21:21
Not saying that everything you believe is negative, but it just seems that you complain about whatever is happening, is about to happen, or might happen.

Just what do you actually espouse? If you were in power, just what should the US be doing re the Mid-East?
 
280Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 21:23
If the Muslim Brotherhood or Iran's Ayatolla wants it, you don't.
 
281bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 21:31
That is your answer as to how we should set policy?

Is there anything a President might consider that you would look at in a positive way?
 
282DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 21:40
It'd be much, much smarter to fund our allies in the region and give them weapons, amirite? I mean, it worked great with the Taliban, what could go wrong?
 
283Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 21:59
bibA

You mean like actively sympathizing with the protesters in Iran?

If the Muslim Brotherhood or Iran's Ayatollah don't want it, there's a reasonable chance that you do.
 
284Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 01:16
i like how Baldwin ignored DWetzel's point, because, ya know, it makes sense. god forbid Baldwin be critical of the only person he holds in higher esteem than himself, that being his lordship, Ronald Reagan.
 
285bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 08:35
Baldwin - OK, I can understand your Iran policy. What about the rest of the region?

I don't get the other sentence in 283 tho. I would want what the Muslim Brotherhood or Iran's Ayatollah don't want?
 
286DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 10:53
284: Tree -- any blatantly obvious point brought up that disagrees with him is clearly just trolling or (lol) uncivil, doncha know?
 
287Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 11:38
bibA

Those two are the sources of islamism in the world today, Iran is the Shia wing and the Muslim Brotherhood [and their many front groups worldwide] is the Sunni wing.

They consider us to be the Great Satan and themselves to be the ones who will usher in the Hidden or promised Mahdi and conquer the world for Allah [focusing on Israel and the USA].

It follows that if they want it, we probably don't since they are inimical to our interests and that opposition is the focus of their policies.
 
288Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 11:41
When I say Iran I specifically mean Iran's radical mullahs and rulers, not the Iranian people as a whole.
 
289bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 11:58
What about the rest of the region? What ARE you in FAVOR of? What should we actually have as a policy? Are you just saying that we should not encourage democracy? You have spoken up numerous times re what is wrong with what is occurring there, but I haven't seen just what you believe we should actually DO.
 
290Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 12:06
c'mon bibA. You know he can't answer that without context. First Obama has to come out with a policy. Then Boldwin will trash it.
 
291Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 12:30
286: i think it's pretty obvious that Baldwin is so lost in his own delusional head, that he can't fathom being schooled by people he has repeatedly called stupid.

i think this is the part where he says he doesnt respond to trolls. mostly because those "trolls" call him out, and hold him accountable.
 
292bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 13:03
His posts remind me of that Cain video from a few days ago, where he spent 5 minutes criticizing Obama for the way Obama handled Libya. He said that Obama was wrong, and that he, Cain, would have not acted until he had considered just who would end up the winners when Qadafi fell. However, he was not able to say Obama had not actually done just that. In other words, he was going to be negative in any event.
 
293Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 13:13
I don't see why the hard political right, which almost wholly continued to support the Iraq invasion even after we learned the truth about WMDs there, wouldn't have raised the very same concerns about the Muslim Brotherhood and it's offshoots back in 2002/03. Sure, we all know a lot more about the Middle East than we did 9 years ago but the lesson they cite of the Shah's ouster is from decades earlier.

The outrage seems mighty selective when the same people recently took precisely the opposite position on a policy enacted by their side of the political aisle which should have warranted exactly the same concerns.

In short, where was the conservative fear of Muslim democracy when the neocons were running the show?

Also, I do think fleshing out the actions and operational ties of the Muslim Brotherhood in greater depth is certainly worthwhile. I attempted to push this discussion that way back February in post 60, asking, I think, objective enough questions about their more recent activity. I'd think that would be exactly the type of discussion the "anti-democracy because we're better off with West-friendly despots running the middle east" crowd would want if they believe they can back up their charges.
 
294Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 16:47
but I haven't seen just what you believe we should actually DO. - bibA

Make sure islamists have as little chance of taking over as possible. Even if that means we don't dare let an islamist majority vote the Muslim Brotherhood into power.
 
295Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 16:48
And if a revolt takes off and the Muslim Brotherhood show up you just found out which side you aren't on.
 
296sarge33rd
      ID: 1310261612
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 16:56
soooooo, surrender the initiative and let 'the other side' dictate your course of action?

Sounds incredibly unwise to me.
 
297bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 17:12
Even if that means we don't dare let an islamist majority vote the Muslim Brotherhood into power.

And just how would YOU propose accomplishing this?

Honestly, I am having a difficult time ascertaining just what you WOULD do in that region. One might guess, but why don't you just come out with what you believe a US president would have to do in order to avoid your constant negativity?
 
298Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 17:12
This isn't even hard. This isn't even an 'enemy of my enemy is my...' situation.

Don't help your enemies.

Oh, that sounds unwise does it Sarge?
 
299Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 17:24
just what you WOULD do

Don't ask what I would do.

I will however answer what an American president should logically do.

1) Get a state department that is pro-american.

2) Instruct them to give you advice that would least likely lead to an anti-american outcome.

3) Get a Sectretary of State who is pro-American. Get policy options least likely lead to an anti-American outcome.

4) Ask that Secretary of State what your enemies are seeking in this situation.

5) Ask that Sectretary what policy would have the best odds of preventing an Islamist takeover of one third of the world.

5) Don't help your enemies accomplish their ends, to the extent that is up to you.

6) Go with that.
 
300sarge33rd
      ID: 1310261612
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 17:31
so, you have nothing concrete that you owuld do and further; your supposition apparently, is that the current State De[t *IS* "anti American". That the Sec of State *IS*, "anti American". When truth is, the current Sec of State, has the last name Clinton, and thus y9ouy can not tolerate that something may be done correctly. So, you hide behind semi-veiled innuendo and false assumptions.

How does God see such two faced BS?
 
301DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 17:37
"Don't help your enemies."

Reagan did this all the time, albeit unintentionally (see again: Taliban, The). Damn neocon marxist he was, obviously.
 
302Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 17:46
nice to see post 299 supporting every presidency we've ever had, including the current one. kudos for your new found maturity Baldwin.
 
303Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 20:14
I would have them apply the National Survival Decision Tree. Hereafter refered to as the NSDT.

Example situation:

Egyptian Radical shows up in America and asks for help overthrowing Egypt.

Employee assigned to handle Egyptian matters like this one, is intimately aware of Egyptian realities and therefore is aware the Muslim Brotherhood would obviously exploit that and result in an Islamist Egypt, but he sends suggestion and the radical towards the President and recommends helping the radical.

[true example, this really happened over a year before the overthrow and Obama supplied all the help and training he could]

Government Employee Suggests Obviously Anti-American Policy

1) Fire Employee.
a) Employee leaves, America is safer.
b) Department calls and says because of the Hatch act they can't fire the employee.

2) If B, White House phones the employee and savages him over the phone until he resigns in disgrace.
a) Employee leaves, America is safer.
b) Employee refuses to leave.

3) If B, assign employee to most harmless department/location you can find, give employee empty office and no paper, no communication devices, no duties.
a) America is safer.

---------------------------

Now send the FBI to the State Department, the office of the Secretary of state, the CIA, NSA, DIA, AFISRA, MCIA, NGA, NRO, ONI, OICI...find anyone who signed on to recommending facilitating that Egypian radical and apply the NSDT.

America is safer.

Oh, before I overlook it:

1) American people fire president who fails to apply NSDT.
a) President leaves.

America is safer.

 
305Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 21:39
wow. you are nuts. like, bat$hit.
 
306Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 00:35
Islamist Muslim Brotherhood wins super-majority in Egypt.

Of course.

Secular liberals completely washed out.

Of course.

Invite and adopt a Coptic family while they still exist.
 
307Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 12:37
Given how poorly the United States has been dealing with Middle East countries this is no surprise.

 
308Boldwin
      ID: 1111427
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 12:44
It is no surprise that islamists win elections in muslim countries. Tho for some odd reason I was the only one who could see it here.

The USA conduct has nothing to do with it.

Leave it to a liberal to blame america for everything.
 
309sarge33rd
      ID: 17117210
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 12:54
Leave it to you, to blame anyone left of you, for everything.
 
310Boldwin
      ID: 1111427
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 13:02
You thot arab spring was the bomb. Own it. All the way to WWIII.
 
311Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 13:30
If Boldwin were able to point to any recent MB activity as evidence that they're on their way to making Egypt the next Iran, I'm still interested in hearing it out. As far as I see they've only been highly critical of violence against Coptics since B started whining about them and in some cases apparently have protected Coptic groups.
 
312Boldwin
      ID: 1111427
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 13:36
Notice it's both 'no surprise' and non-credible depending on where in the denial process the liberal is.
 
313Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 13:41
Well, non-existent with regard to any modern evidence to support your rage.
 
314Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 13:57
The USA conduct has nothing to do with it.

So you don't believe that the United States has the ability to affect other countries actions? Is that your meme-of-the-hour?

 
315Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 11:03
Mark Steyn on Egypt.
 
316Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 13:15
Steyn is a perfect example of the cream dropping to the bottom in the conservative media.

Steyn, as usual, overstates our ability to usefully compel other countries to follow our will.
 
317Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 16:13
Brewpub owner bashes Obama on Facebook, patrons revolt

Pub's Facebook Page Slams Obama

it's been an interesting 24 hours in my neighborhood, as a poster child for Social Media Fail has been born.

some background info: when this pub opened a few months ago, it instantly become my neighborhood watering hole. great beer selection, amazing food, and a very friendly and hard-working crew of employees. i loved going there.

my best friend got a job there, and i became friends with a few of the other employees. two weeks ago, my best friend quit, when the owner, who literally spends his entire day at the bar drinking, started screaming at her in a drunken rant. she walked.

two weeks later, three other employees - imho, the best employees he had - quit after again being screamed at by the owner.

yesterday, i lamented on the bar's facebook page about the loss of friendly faces and good servers, and he responded with something (not ver batum) "i can't fail because my employees are spoiled boys and girls".

i pointed out that no one was spoiled, and his staff had brought in a ton of business. the response was "Sorry Josh, I do not expect to be supported by my employees. I do not want their customers, I do not want to be thankful just because you bring in my place few additional customers."

and, finally, ver batum and spelling intact "you know what Josh? I was born in Italy. In Italy there is the mafia. I will loose you, and maybe 1,000 customers other than you. Buta I do not care. If I have to change myself according with your and the american expextations i prefer to be a looser..."

this all led into his now locally infamous "Obama kid" comment in the stories above, which included various "F*ck You!" comments to customers.

it's been a study in torching your business social media style.

perhaps, what's been equally amazing to me is the emphasis people are putting on it being about politics, when it's more about a business owner treating his customers and potential customers like crap. but Conservatives are coming out of the wood work screaming "Free Speech! Free Speech!" without having a clue a on the entire story.

anyway, the whole thing has been fascinating.
 
318DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 16:19
"Free speech" is great, I think we all agree (well, I know most of us do) -- but it doesn't come without responsibility, or without the right of other people to react to it in ways you don't like.
 
319Boldwin
      ID: 171144615
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 17:48
Wow, a new conservative hangout in Fort Worth. He doesn't need every lib in Fort Worth.
 
320Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 18:09
Yeah, there's no place drunk ranting conservatives hang out anywhere, is there?
 
321sarge33rd
      ID: 581115611
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 18:18
roflmfao THE, all time illustration of misapplied social media; and B says, "Wow, a new conservative hangout in Fort Worth. He doesn't need every lib in Fort Worth."

Given the failure rate for new business startups, and the lack of overall current discretionary monies; I'd be VERY hesitant in being a leisure business owner and chasing away $$ carrying/spending patrons. Regardless of political leanings.
 
322Tree
      ID: 211130614
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 22:13
Apparently, Baldwin can't read.
 
323Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 22:57
I'm not sure I understand this. Local bar owner is a jerk and fired some of the regulars' favorite employees, including Tree's friend. And when Tree told the establishment's facebook page that the changes were for the worse, the owner defended his actions and the discussion blew over into a larger argument that led to the guy making a comment that some felt disparaged the president, which other people heard about, prompting further, semi-viral escalation?

I don't understand why this should be relevant to anyone who doesn't patronize or otherwise care about that bar.

I guess the number of people who seem genuinely unable to just let some stranger's disagreeable internet comment pass without piling on in kind of interesting.

What's the lesson supposed to be, if you're being a jerk and projecting it on the internet, don't also criticize the president?
 
324sarge33rd
      ID: 581115611
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 23:05
its a neg ex, of the power of social media. This little bar, went from a local watering ho9le just beginning, to now VERY wide spread, negative exposure.
 
325Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 23:17
I guess. Not exactly like it's a brand new phenomenon. My guess is that if this has a lasting negative impact on the business it'll mostly result from the regulars who are upset about the staff changes.

In fact a smart owner might be able to turn all the publicity into a little boom for his business. The apology he issued might have been a good start. A lot of the posts after his apology were pretty empathetic.
 
326Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 23:21
The additional component, IMO, are those leaping to call this a free speech issue--as if a business owner being dickish should have no consequences for that business (or the owner).

This happens often when business owners spout off on anti-Obama nonsense, then seem surprised that others not only don't see it that way, but punish their business as a result.
 
327sarge33rd
      ID: 581115611
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 23:21
No it isnt new; but I think there is still a substantial lack of awareness, of the power of things like a Facebook, to spiral well beyond one intentions.
 
328Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Dec 07, 2011, 00:23
I dont know I guess I just dont get it. It doesnt seem like a particularly impressive example of social media. In a discussion that has mostly been about the Lybian uprising I don't see why this is more significant than a mediocre flash mob or Bad Romance video recreation. As a solely negative-impact social media example, I'd rank it somewhere between chain email propaganda and rickrolling.

The free speech argument is predictable reaction anytime enough people happen to see someone's outrage over something on the internet if. There should be a name for it if there isn't one already. Probably happens as reliably as Godwin's Law.
 
329Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Dec 07, 2011, 00:44
NYT Looks at Egyptian voting results, distinguishes the Muslim Brotherhood from more hardline Islamists.
 
330Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Dec 07, 2011, 01:47
I dont know I guess I just dont get it. It doesnt seem like a particularly impressive example of social media.

in Fort Worth Texas, it is. for a new bar, in a neighborhood that is essentially a liberal oasis in one of the most right-leaning counties in the country, it is.

it's been picked up by both weekly newspapers, and the local NBC affiliate. CNN called the bar for a comment today. i'm sure the local dailies are going to chime in.

and it's absolutely an example of Social Media gone wrong. it's a business owner telling his patrons to f*ck off. it's a business owner telling regular customers he doesn't care if he loses them, or their friends.

to his credit, the bar owner issued a (ghost-written) apology earlier today. and this saturday, as a mea culpa, he'll be giving away free pizza, and donating a portion of the bar proceeds to Fort Worth South, a local non-profit for preserving this historic district in which i live.
 
331Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Dec 07, 2011, 02:16
But didn't it only blow up to semi-viral status after politics got dragged into it. Didn't you find it necessary to post an insistence on that page that the issue isn't about politics?

Social media "gone wrong" might turn out to be premature. I'm not so sure that the adage that any publicity is good publicity won't apply here, whether it's local Obama haters who will become new patrons to support a like-minded small businessman or empathetic types who feel bad for the guy or feel bad that he felt forced to apologize for his own business decisions or a brand new clientele base who show up for the pizza on Saturday that wouldn't have otherwise attracted them if not for the dustup.
 
332Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Dec 07, 2011, 02:34
I'm surprised to hear that CNN called, since I have no idea why anyone would think there could be national interest in this story. I still don't know what the story is.

Belligerent drunk bar owner disparages patrons on Facebook, thread goes semi-viral when he calls them "Obama kids"?

I don't know if thats a big enough hook for Drew Fark on a slow news day, much less CNN. A quick search doesn't come up with anything at CNN.com so I'm guessing the call their producer made confirmed for them that there isn't a story there.

But I do bet some national media outlets are keeping an eye on it in case it does become interesting, like if a political spat on Saturday turns into a brawl. Of course if Saturday's pizza party turns out to be a big success, it might then become an interesting lemons-into-lemonade 'unpredictable power of social media' story.
 
333Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 06:16
I think we're all missing the most important result.

He found a way to create a Tree-free zone. My congratulations to all of Fort Worth.
 
334Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:48
He found a way to create a Tree-free zone. My congratulations to all of Fort Worth.

nice trolling, and way to miss the point. not shocking on either count.

as a follow up to all this mess, Zio Carlo issued a further (ghost-written) apology. additionally, i was apologized to personally on my Facebook page.

i believe all of this to be sincere - granted, some of it may be because of the damage done to his business - but it does feel like a legitimate mea culpa from a struggling new business owner.

the true apology will be if this never happens again, and I am hopeful it doesnt.

 
335Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 06:52
Lie:
"Most leaders in the Green movement made clear they did not desire financial or other support from the United States," a State Department senior official said. "As an organic movement, it was concerned that taking outside support would discredit it in the eyes of the Iranian people. We respect that and do not provide financial assistance to any political movement, party or faction in Iran."


Reality:
In November 2009, leaders of the Green party, which had staged a revolt on the streets of Tehran in June of that year, sent a long memo through channels to the Obama administration that some analysts said was a clear call for help.

"So now, at this pivotal point in time, it is up to the countries of the free world to make up their mind," states the opposition memo dated Nov. 30, 2009. "Will they continue on the track of wishful thinking and push every decision to the future until it is too late, or will they reward the brave people of Iran and simultaneously advance the Western interests and world peace."

The eight-page memo describes the current regime under Ayatollah Ali Khamenei as a "brutal, apocalyptic theocratic dictatorship."

The memo warns that Iran "with its apocalyptic constitution will never give up the atomic bomb, nor will it give up its terror network, because it needs these instruments to maintain its power and enhance its own economic and financial wealth." - The Washington Examiner
Ah, but if the revolt had been anti-American and Islamist there would have been support. Warm up the predators then.
 
336Boldwin
      ID: 1557712
      Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 19:36
Clinton: Assad 'must transfer power and depart Syria'

There is rich irony in that declaration. No one better exemplified unlimited unwillingness to be shamed out of office than the Clinton power couple.

Do as I say...
 
337nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 19:56

Baldwin
There is rich irony in that declaration. No one better exemplified unlimited unwillingness to be shamed out of office than the Clinton power couple.


If I didn't know better I would think this was really Toral back on one of his drunken binges.

 
338Tree
      ID: 52559718
      Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 20:04
No one better exemplified unlimited unwillingness to be shamed out of office than the Clinton power couple.



damn fine president. best we've had in a generation. no shame at all in regards to his presidency.
 
339TB
      ID: 451028614
      Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 20:56
lol
 
340Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 23:59
shamed out of office

Did this actually occur? My recollection is that Bill Clinton was constitutionally barred from running again, but left office with just under 2/3 of the country approving of the job he was doing.
 
341Boldwin
      ID: 1557712
      Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 12:53
Clinton invented a totally new method of surviving scandals.

He had so many impeachable scandals that this weeks scandal pushed last week's scandal off the news and got him off the hook.

A Republican with scandals on the scale of Clinton's would have resigned the first month.

For example do you really believe the media would have let Nixon stay in office if he had a whole room full of illegal FBI files? A credible rape victim?

Nixon could just ignore 230 scandals until media interest fizzled out?

Nope, the Clintons are the perfect counter to any suggestion Bashar Al Assad should resign.
 
342DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 13:46
"A Republican with scandals on the scale of Clinton's would have resigned the first month."

link
 
343sarge33rd
      ID: 34536813
      Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 14:36
"Duke" Cunningham anyone...anyone
 
344Razor
      ID: 5533249
      Sun, Jun 24, 2012, 10:33
Muslim Brotherhood wins in Egypt.
 
345Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 03:34
It's not often I link you to Young Turks.

This does not end well. You think 'Arab Spring' is a good thing? This does not end well.
 
346Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 23:13
Reuters
President Barack Obama has signed a secret order authorizing U.S. support for rebels seeking to depose Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and his government, U.S. sources familiar with the matter said.

Obama's order, approved earlier this year and known as an intelligence "finding," broadly permits the CIA and other U.S. agencies to provide support that could help the rebels oust Assad.

This and other developments signal a shift toward growing, albeit still circumscribed, support for Assad's armed opponents - a shift that intensified following last month's failure of the U.N. Security Council to agree on tougher sanctions against the Damascus government.

The White House is for now apparently stopping short of giving the rebels lethal weapons, even as some U.S. allies do just that.
 
347Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 09:32
I don't have a problem with Obama doing this, but I feel that there would be massive news coverage and outrage if you changed Obama to Bush.

Hopefully the a new or reformed government in Syria is an improvement, but as we have seen with some other countries, the new government might not be any better than the old government.
 
348Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 09:36
I disagree, Frick. I am disappointed Obama did not do this sooner. The outcry from liberals would not be that Bush authorized action, it would be that he did not do it sooner. A government unleashing its military on its people in order to retain power is unacceptable.
 
349sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 10:52
What we dont know Razor, is when he signed the authorization. We only know, it was leaked yesterday. That, doesnt mean it was signed in the past few days. It could well, have been signed weeks or months ago. (Not saying t was, simply saying we dont know that. According to the last news I saw n the topic yesterday evening.)
 
350Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 17:03
The article says earlier this year, so I took it to mean at least several months ago. I'll admit that I don't remember the exact timing of events in Syria.
 
351Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 17:42
Muslim Brotherhood seeks the release of al qeada explosives expert.

But is it to keep him from revealing more or to resume using his expertise?
 
352Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 09:40
It is obviously to plant him, mole-like, into the Obama Administration.

After all, what is the use of having a Manchurian Candidate complex if you don't follow that up?
 
353Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 10:49
They already have their mole there.
 
354Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 13:16
Of course they do. And any minute now Obama will turn Marxist. Any minute now...
 
355Boldwin
      ID: 307293121
      Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 12:10
Predictable development:

members of the Muslim Brotherhood “crucified” dissidents “naked on trees in front of the presidential palace.”

And so it goes for opponents of Morsi and the MB during the 'arab spring'.
 
356Boldwin
      ID: 218361210
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 12:18
Chris Stevens, U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack, served as envoy during revolution.

Liberal love child, the arab spring, has only begun to bite america on the butt.
 
357Boldwin
      ID: 18421219
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 21:12
Moving tribute to a diplomat casualty of the Libya 'arab springers'.

My kinda dude. Enormously influential in online gaming. Used his strategic thinking skills to rule EVE Online, a (MMORPG). He was an official diplomat in Eve Online, serving on the Council of Stellar Management, Eve Online's player-elected board.

Smith was also a respected debate and discussions moderator on the Something Awful site.
 
358Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 21:54
More from the Arab Springers
 
359sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 22:58
B? Our own "freedom spring" if you will, resulted in our declaring independence in 1776. The Constitution however, wasnt ratified until 1789. It took us 13 years. Why do you feel a few weeks, is all the Arab people should need?
 
360Boldwin
      ID: 18421219
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 23:41
Just remember how much Sarge promoted this when it truly hits the fan.
 
361Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 23:54
Also today in Benghazi.




 
362Boldwin
      ID: 58831223
      Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 00:09
Brave individuals, but these are the kind of people who unfortunately end up crucified in front of muslim brotherhood presidential palaces when the MB consolidate power.

See#355
 
367Razor
      ID: 177192916
      Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 10:45
Filmmaker endangers Jews in the Middle East by claiming to be Israeli.
 
368Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 11:26
I read that article, too, Razor. All I can say is that it is so irresponsible. The author admits he has no firm evidence or proof of this guys identity. Yet he is still publishing names and information suggesting it is.

And the comments at the bottom sicken me. People calling for this guy to be tried for murder? He exercised one of the basic rights of America - freedom of speech. Because some animal extremists in another country over react (and thats an understatement) and murder somebody, somehow this guy is responsible. One of the posters even calls for the guy to be tried in a world court. An American calling for an American to be tried for exercising his freedom of speech. I'm dumbfounded by how people are reacting.

I don't support this film, its message or its maker. And I'll show that by refusing to watch it. I won't go to any website advertising it. The guys an idiot for inflaming extremists. He doesn't deserve any publicity or support.

But we all had better support the right for him to do what he did.
 
369Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 11:53
Khahan

I'm lost on what you think the writer did wrong. Nakoula acknowledged in an interview with AP that he was involved in the production of the film. He agreed to be interviewed and identified by the national media.

There's no confusion about his real identity - the article says he even showed the AP his driver's license.

The writer speculates that he might also be the person behind the pseudonym Sam Bacile, but 2 of the 7 sentences in that paragraph start with, "If true...".

I'd agree the basis for the article's speculation is not very strong, but that's largely because they left a few key items from the AP article out of their excerpt. Like that when the AP went to the address they tracked down after getting a phone number for Bacile from one of his associates, that is where they found Nakoula. And that "federal papers" showed that Nakoula is known to used the alias, Nicola Bacily. Everyone who deals with "Sam Bacile" seems to claim that the name is an alias.

What name was the Atlantic not supposed to publish?
 
370Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 12:47
Mith,

The article is actually constantly changing. I read (what turned out to be) a similar article to what Razor posted. I clicked the link, saw the same photo, the same header, the same byline and the same first sentence and the wrote 368. But then I scrolled down thinking I was on a different page and realized that the article Razor linked is a shortened version of what I read. The article I read detailed how there are many aliases and phone numbers registered to addresses. There is a lot of 'connect the dots' but no actual proof. Just circumstantial stuff. Then the article goes on to say again and again that it is the same guy. (not, it appears. Not its possibly, but it is).

Now I went to look for that article I read earlier and can't find it, but did find this one.

The funny thing is, I responded to comments in the first article I found. I found those comments in this one.

It seems to me they went from a well developed investigation that proved fruitless (to this point) and rather following up and getting more facts and actually connecting the dots, they just jumped to a conclusion. That is irresponsible and lazy journalism.
 
371Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 13:07
Was the offending piece at the Atlantic?
 
372Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 14:00
yeah.
 
373nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 16:48

Baldwin: "Moving tribute to a diplomat casualty of the Libya 'arab springers'."

Shoot from the hip much? At the moment they think it was likely Ghadafi loyalists that did it (No solid proof yet) but that would be the opposite of the Arab springers. In any case no one knows yet, or does it all just have to fit your world view mindset without waiting for facts?

And the right wing was so anxious to explain to us that Obama was so happy the Muslim brother hood was in charge in Egypt yet he is having to back track for the "gaffe" (As Drudge put it) saying that Egypt is currently nether an enemy or an ally (i.e. the Muslim Brotherhood Democratically elected government)

 
374Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Sep 16, 2012, 18:57
The Right's response to pro-America rallies after attacks?: "They're fake!!"

The sad part is that they really need them to be fake.
 
375Boldwin
      ID: 21850177
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 09:01
No, really. Three people actually hand-lettered the exact same hand-lettered sign.
 
376Mith
      ID: 437192317
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 09:50
Then look at these four signs, held by different people, all clearly written by the same person and misspelled the same way. It is highly doubtful that the participants have any idea what the signs they’re holding mean. Certainly no one in this crowd knows enough English to be aware of it.

The hand-lettered signs are supposed to look individual, they are clearly not.
I don't follow the logic. That the same person/people wrote the signs means that the demonstration can only have been faked?

Doesn't it seem obvious that the majority of people in that crowd wouldn't be capable of writing their own sign and would need one of the few people who can (barely, apparently) communicate in written English to write them for them?

We've seen many, many tea party events where demonstrators carried signs that were obviously handed out at the event. Is the argument that those signs are valid because they were professionally printed?

What would you expect the English signs to look like? If they were carrying professional-looking signs with an English language message, wouldn't that be a more likely indicator that the protest might have been government-staged? Wouldn't misspelled words using characters that aren't even in the English alphabet arranged with no sense of layout design suggest the opposite?

Also, there were signs in Arabic as well. It seems likely that most of the Libyan demonstrators would know what was written on those signs, no? I tend to think the Pam Geller/Instapundit crowd would have blown up the interwebs by now if they translated into anything other than the reported sentiment.
 
377Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 10:12
Doesn't it seem obvious that the majority of people in that crowd wouldn't be capable of writing their own sign and would need one of the few people who can (barely, apparently) communicate in written English to write them for them?

logic is thrown out the window.

when there were people carrying the ambassador to the hospital, several conservatives i know on facebook were outraged that they didn't call 911 and get an ambulance to get him there faster.

i pointed out that Libya likely didnt have a 911 system, and the response was "of course they do. they have cell phones."
 
378DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 10:56
Fortunately, we here in America never misspell signs that are put up at protests.

 
379boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 13:18
We've seen many, many tea party events where demonstrators carried signs that were obviously handed out at the event. Is the argument that those signs are valid because they were professionally printed?

I thought tea party rallies were also faked?
 
380Boldwin
      ID: 21850177
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 13:49
I don't follow the logic. - MITH

When you guys gain the ability to figure out whether the Tea Party is real or astroturf, then and only then will you graduate to the tougher questions like, is that demonstration real or is it staged.

I'm pretty sure that crowd lives in Libya and chances are they don't want to be bombed by predators and stealth bombers.

Whether they hold any sympathy whatsoever for Chris Stevens or America is a question that signs run thru the largest jumbo size copier in Benghazi do not sufficiently prove.

If they have any positive feelings towards America, they didn't get it from half a lifetime of radical pan-arab indoctrination from their government, or from imams, or from the foreign jihadis and the muslim brotherhood who helped them revolt.

You could hope they have some common human decency and maybe managed to have some contact with the outside world. Maybe they don't see the world thru the eyes of a North African Imam, but those signs aren't enuff to reassure me.

Nor is a raid by radicals enuff to convict the general population.
 
381sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 14:07
if however they truly do harbor anti-American feelings, pretty safe those feelings are driven by the arrogance and self-righteousness displayed in 380.
 
382Mith
      ID: 437192317
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 14:17
Nor is a raid by radicals enuff to convict the general population.

Post 375 and the link in 374 don't attempt that very argument?

I don't see any reason to look at those signs and decide they are proof that the thing was staged.

But frontpagemag tells me that the signs are supposed to look individual. That seems to be the writer's only point. And the only point of 375.

And I'd like to know, why does that matter? Why would the protest look more realistic to you if they had all created their own signs?

I sure wish I could get answers to those questions instead of being told I'm too stupid to deserve them.
 
383Boldwin
      ID: 21850177
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 15:27
Reason #1: The person with the access to the largest jumbo copier in Banghazi also can use the internet to spell.

But they trust the average TV viewer to think they are realistic.. Tell me you aren't just an average TV viewer.
 
384Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 15:30
Three people actually hand-lettered the exact same hand-lettered sign.

It is the same sign, held by three different people.

Of course this means that Libya is consistently and pervasively anti-American and should be punished by us borrowing more money from China and putting our military into harms way. Any other response is simply un-american and suggesting otherwise should subject that person to sneering...
 
385sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 15:31
Gee, were they more concerned perhaps with their message, or with appeasing grammar nazis....hmmmmmm let me ponder that one.
 
386Boldwin
      ID: 21850177
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 15:31
If you are going to continue this line of contention, tell me your alternate theory for the tech savy protest organizer dumbing down the signs.
 
387Boldwin
      ID: 21850177
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 15:41
PD

1) wrong, it's been copied. Have you ever seen a crowd play 'everybody pass the signs'?

2) no one on this board has called for shock and awe against the whole country. [Not even Reagan in the 80's, or serious republicans now.]

3) since no one played the part of your strawman, no one has called you [or MITH] un-american.

4) the 'sneering' is directed at taking those signs for real.

Sarge

Duh, it's not 'their' message.
 
388Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 15:48
So the various rallies against the violence are all staged--is that your position? I just want to make clear that I understand.

Also, what do you think should be done?
 
389Mith
      ID: 437192317
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 15:49
Tech savvy?



I have to believe a Benghazi resident who can push a button on a copy machine is not quite the precious rarity you seem to make him to be.

Is your argument really that you cannot fathom someone capable of mastering the 'copy' button on a xerox machine who's English is no better than that?

Why is it so terribly unlikely that someone drew up the sign in the best English he could do and either made (or had someone make) copies?

What would you expect them to do?
 
390sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 15:55
Profit/Prophet...its not like spell check is infallible

And yes B, on various forums/boards, there are MANY in the GOP ranks, comparing this as being "very similar" to Iran under Carter and the taking of hostages. Yes they ARE calling for full scale invasion. Yes, the GOP seems to be going more and more insane, with each passing day.
 
391Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 16:11
Actually boldwin, you are the positing the theory that there are 'tech savvy protest organizer.'

You want us to believe there is a behind the scenes mastermind orchestrating all this for some nefarious reason. Well, where is the evidence? And I'll tell you right now, if your evidence is '3 hand drawn signs that look like they're from the same person' then I'm done. That is not evidence anymore than a rock laying in the street near the foot of a protestor is evidence.

You have the theory; enlighten us.
 
392Mith
      ID: 437192317
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 16:20
Perm Dude 384

That possibility hadnt occurred to me. It would actually be two different people, since the closer look you prompted me to take led me to realize the 1st and 3rd signs are held by the same person. In fact, the photos appear to have been snapped at the same time, judging by the literally identical position of the guy's hands, despite different camera angles.

The sign the kid is holding may well be the same one. It is far less crinkled so it's either a different one or the kid held it first.

Notably, none of the photos includes two of the same sign.

Either way, I've spent way too much time on this today.
 
393Boldwin
      ID: 21850177
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 16:28
You want us to believe there is a behind the scenes mastermind orchestrating all this

I didn't say they were a genius. It was orchestrated, that's just an empirical fact...see manufactured 'fake homemade signs'.

for some nefarious reason.

Who said nefarious? They don't want to be bombed. See #380, line 2

Well, where is the evidence?

Of them being nefarious? We have no idea who those people are, who organized them, or how they really feel.

And I'll tell you right now, if your evidence is '3 hand drawn signs that look like they're from the same person' then I'm done. That is not evidence anymore than a rock laying in the street near the foot of a protestor is evidence.

Who said that protest is convincing evidence of anything? Exactly the opposite. Where is your evidence it is convincing evidence of anything either way?

You have the theory; enlighten us.

I have a theory. You know less about this than you think you do. You are very possibly being zoomed.
 
394Boldwin
      ID: 21850177
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 16:37
These are two different people, same sign.




And I am also happy to drop this other than to reiterate, this protest is far from convincing us that Libya as a people generally regrets the attack.
 
395DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 16:46
"this protest is far from convincing us that Libya as a people generally regrets the attack."

The problem is that when you come at these things with preconceived notions, there's really nothing that ever could convince you.
 
396Boldwin
      ID: 21850177
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 17:52
Khahan

You want a theory? I'll give you a theory. These are the type of [tech savvy] people who could/would organize an event such as this.
“It is very bad,” said Ahlam Ben Tabon, who works at the domestic branch of a non-governmental organization (NGO), Foundation for the Future. “The government is not in control and this is a real calamity. We need the Americans.”
 
397Boldwin
      ID: 21850177
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 18:00
Further in the piece:
In recent weeks, Libyan leaders have reflexively blamed former Gadhafi officials – it is easier that way. But for Ahlam Ben Tabon, there is no doubt.

The Benghazi attack wasn’t the work of Gadhafi people; it was Salafists,” she said. “And some in the government like to confuse the issue because some of them are linked in Islamist belief with the Salafists who carried out the attack.”

She is not the only one who thinks that. Political activists attending a rally in Algiers Square in downtown Tripoli Wednesday night to protest the Benghazi attack also dismissed the talk of old regime figures being to blame. The culprits for them are also ultraconservative Muslims.

Aimen, who wouldn’t give his family name for fear of Salafist retribution, said he believed there was “a hidden hand” behind the recent surge in Muslim extremism, arguing that “Saudi and Qatar are encouraging them through their preachers and through funding.”

“Unfortunately,” he added, “they can exploit the lack of education here and the ignorance.”

The few activists at the rally to oppose what happened in Benghazi expressed their disappointment at the small turnout for the demonstration – only about 150 protested.

“I am here to express my condolences to the families of the Americans who died,” says Mohamed Asad Ellafy, a media coordinator for the Libyan youth NGO H2O.
Shoot from the hip much, Nerve?
 
398Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 18:33
PD is right, there is only one of those hand drawn posters. The one that the young boy is holding was later held by the man (who, as I noted earlier, was counted twice by frontpagemag in two separate photos.

In post 361 I linked to a site with 15 photos from the demonstration. Peruse them. See if you can find a single photo in which that poster appears twice.

I'll also note that there are professionally designed and printed posters in those photos. Why anyone thinks having professionally printed posters is proof tht the sentiment is phoney is beyond me. Free Republic was at the very first tea party event in history - before they'd even been called tea partiers, handing out professionally printed signs. The notion that anyone with access to a xerox machine would necessarily have Internet access and therefor would never spell an English word wrong is probably the stupidest thing typed into this forum that Ive read in a while.

Anyway, as I noted I wasn't convinced the man and the boy were necessarily holding the same placard because, as displayed by the photos in 394, the man's placard is creased, particularly in the bottom left corner, while the boy's isn't. But then when I looked at the boy again in 361 (same photo in 389) you can actually see how the boy created that very cease as he held the poster up.

Good call, PD.
 
399Boldwin
      ID: 21850177
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 18:58
Ok. I guess the kid got tired or had a poor attention span.

The million man protest in Pakistan against terrorism impressed me. This little 150 man 'outpouring' doesn't impress me in any way other than the courage they show amidst a country teeming with bloodthirsty salafists, many of whom are in power.

The secularists in Egypt occasionally impressed me with hopeless delusional optimism. Then some of them showed up naked, crucified in front of the presidential palace. Here's wishing those 150 a better fate.

It is a terrible thing to be living in an 'arab spring' pre-Islamist country.

 
400biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 19:05
Deranged websites conspiring to confuse Baldwin since time immemorial. Or maybe since Gore invented the interwebs, which ever came first.

That's a conspiracy theory I can believe in.
 
401sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 19:05
Bet their odds are considerably better, than were those for anyone slightly "different", in Salem, MA.
 
403Boldwin
      ID: 348451718
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 19:45
Also interesting. Art student eye witness.
 
404Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 08:22
"Innocence of Muslims" actress sues Nakiula and Google.
 
405Boldwin
      ID: 15821200
      Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:37
Wow, is the english dubbed version bad bad bad production values, sheesh. Unbearable. I could do better in my sleep.
 
406biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Sep 22, 2012, 10:14
Libyans step up.
 
407Boldwin
      ID: 47819260
      Wed, Sep 26, 2012, 09:07
Whadayaknow? Sarge was right!
 
408Boldwin
      ID: 484290
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 06:14
Funding a World War against yourself.

Paying people who crucify Christians in front of their presidential palace while we apologize for videos and reward their efforts by threatening free speech in our own country.
The Obama administration notified Congress on Friday that it would provide Egypt’s new government an emergency cash infusion of $450 million... - NYT September 28, 2012
Get China on the line and tell them we want to squander another half a billion of their dollars.
 
409Boldwin
      ID: 428282914
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 16:35


After WWIII which 'arab spring' loving liberals created.

That's when Sarge finally gets his permission to outlaw all religion except his own.
 
410Boldwin
      ID: 2397243
      Wed, Oct 24, 2012, 05:02
If you liked Iran Contra...
It now appears that Stevens was there — on a particularly risky day, with no security to speak of and despite now copiously documented concerns about his own safety and that of his subordinates — for another priority mission: sending arms recovered from the former regime’s stocks to the “opposition” in Syria. As in Libya, the insurgents are known to include al Qaeda and other Shariah-supremacist groups, including none other than Abdelhakim Belhadj.

Fox News has chronicled how the Al Entisar, a Libyan-flagged vessel carrying 400 tons of cargo, docked on Sept. 6 in the Turkish port of Iskenderun. It reportedly supplied both humanitarian assistance and arms — including deadly SA-7 man-portable surface-to-air missiles — apparently destined for Islamists, again including al Qaeda elements, in Syria.

the “consulate in Benghazi” actually was no such thing.

a “shabby, nondescript building” that lacked any “major public security presence” was, according to an unnamed Middle Eastern security official, “routinely used by Stevens and others to coordinate with the Turkish, Saudi and Qatari governments on supporting the insurgencies in the Middle East, most prominently the rebels opposing Assad’s regime in Syria.”

We know that Stevens‘ last official act was to hold such a meeting with an unidentified “Turkish diplomat.” Presumably, the conversation involved additional arms shipments to al Qaeda and its allies in Syria. It also may have involved getting more jihadi fighters there.

according to sources in Egyptian security, our ambassador was playing a “central role in recruiting jihadists to fight Bashar al-Assad’s regime in Syria.”

It gets worse. Last week, Center for Security Policy senior fellow and former career CIA officer Clare Lopez observed that there were two large warehouse-type buildings associated with the so-called “consulate” whose purpose has yet to be disclosed. As their contents were raided in the course of the attack, we may never know for sure whether they housed — and were known by the local jihadis to house — arms, perhaps administered by the two former Navy SEALs killed along with Stevens.

What we do know is that the New York Times — one of the most slavishly pro-Obama publications in the country — reported in an Oct. 14 article, “Most of the arms shipped at the behest of Saudi Arabia and Qatar to supply Syrian rebel groups fighting the government of Bashar Assad are going to hard-line Islamic jihadists, and not the more secular opposition groups that the West wants to bolster.”

In short, it seems President Obama has been engaged in gun-walking on a massive scale. The effect has been to equip America’s enemies to wage jihad not only against regimes it once claimed were our friends, but inevitably against us and our allies as well. That would explain his administration’s desperate and now failing bid to mislead the voters through the serial deflections of Benghazigate.
Taker Snake
 
411Mith
      ID: 98342014
      Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 17:22
Is Jordan Next?
 
412Mith
      ID: 98342014
      Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 09:38
NYT Op-Ed
A few months ago, talk of possible massacres of Alawites, who dominate Bashar al-Assad’s government in Syria, seemed like pro-regime propaganda. Now, it is a real possibility.

For more than a year, Mr. Assad’s government has been committing crimes against humanity in Syria. As it fights for survival on the streets of Aleppo and Damascus, the risk of unrestrained reprisals against Mr. Assad’s Alawite sect and Syria’s other religious minorities is growing every day.

Following the rise to power of Mr. Assad’s father, Hafez, in 1970, Alawites were transformed from a persecuted minority sect to the controlling force within the army and government. With a system of perks similar to those in other dictatorships, the elder Mr. Assad drew other religious and ethnic minorities into his political orbit while rebellions by members of the Sunni majority, like the one in Hama in 1982, were mercilessly crushed.

When the Arab Spring reached Syria last year, it dredged up animosities that had been lurking for decades. The protest movement was avowedly nonsectarian, attracting Syrians from all communities. But in the government’s eyes, the opposition was simply a Sunni front seeking to topple the Assad family and end Alawite rule.

The Syrian government’s actions have deepened the sectarian divide. As the violent repression of protests gave way to the destruction of opposition-controlled villages, the government moved from targeting individual dissenters to imposing collective punishment upon entire neighborhoods. Sunni areas were shelled by artillery and tanks, and the pro-government shabiha militia, made up mainly of Alawites, carried out ferocious massacres of men, women and children. The majority of victims were Sunni civilians.

As the civil war intensifies, Mr. Assad is increasingly outsourcing the dirty work. In Damascus, militia groups within Druse, Christian and Shiite areas are being armed by the government. While the justifications for these militias are “neighborhood self-defense” and the protection of religious sites, the shabiha emerged in a similar way before becoming killing squads for Mr. Assad. And by drawing Christians, Druse, Shiites and Alawites into the civil war on an explicitly sectarian basis, the Syrian government has all but guaranteed that there will be reprisals against these communities if Mr. Assad falls.

 
413boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 10:31
An interesting commentary on Israeli use of social media in their fight on Gaza: Israel winning the media war on Palestine.
 
414Tree
      ID: 321010169
      Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 11:04
An interesting commentary on Israeli use of social media in their fight on Gaza

meh. the Palestinians long ago won the branding war against Israel.

that article is just one example.
 
416Mith
      ID: 98342014
      Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 11:35
Agreed. Don't take this as an outright condemnation or Israel - the rockets out of Gaza are considerably upgraded compared with what they had in previous years. But Israel could have done better than waiting until well into a ceasefire to launch their counter strike.
 
417Tree
      ID: 2910181611
      Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 12:18
the rockets out of Gaza are considerably upgraded compared with what they had in previous years. But Israel could have done better than waiting until well into a ceasefire to launch their counter strike.

i don't disagree. the hardest thing about this entire thing - from day one - is that neither side is entirely wrong and neither side is entirely right.

but the rockets out of Gaza are landing around Tel Aviv - that is a big escalation, and i fear that this may launch into a full blown war for that reason.
 
418Boldwin
      ID: 910431619
      Sat, Nov 17, 2012, 09:51
Diplomacy in the age of twitter
She won't show it to you but there has been a new chapter written in Sid vicious Bloomenthal's book, 'The Communication Stream of Conspiracy Commerce'.
 
419Boldwin
      ID: 5010412318
      Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 22:59
Egyptians standing athwart history yelling stop.

Would but they stood a chance vs the MB.
 
420Boldwin
      ID: 5010412318
      Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 22:59
 
421Boldwin
      ID: 3510272522
      Sun, Nov 25, 2012, 23:28


Don't think Mecca is that direction.
 
422biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sun, Nov 25, 2012, 23:32
Man, do I wish you gambled. You've been on tilt for nearly a month!
 
423sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Nov 25, 2012, 23:41
lol
 
424Boldwin
      ID: 291029284
      Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 08:05
Just as I told you plainly from day one:
The country is aflame again because there is no “Arab Spring.” We are witnessing the rise of Islamic supremacists who regard democracy not as a way of life but as a route to power. Rather than opposing them, Obama is the wind at their backs.

Emboldened by U.S. backing and funding, Mohamed Morsi, the Muslim Brotherhood heavyweight Egyptians elected to be their president, has essentially declared dictatorial powers — i.e., that his “sovereign” actions are beyond judicial review. This is actually the second phase of the power-grab; no one noticed the first, a few months back, because Western progressives were too busy swooning over Morsi’s sacking of the generals to be much bothered by his usurpation of legislative authority.

Now, Morsi is riding roughshod over the judiciary. His objective is to clear the field of secular interference so the Islamist-dominated “constituent assembly” can finish writing and ramming through a new constitution that further suffocates Egypt in the classical sharia framework favored by the Brothers and their allies (including Mohammed al-Zawahiri, who is the brother of al Qaeda’s leader, and the Islamic Group (Gama’at al Islamia), the Blind Sheik’s jihadist organization).

As I argued in Spring Fever, the Brotherhood in Egypt is following an easily accessible, albeit widely ignored, game-plan. It is the one by which Islamists moved Turkey back into their column, away from real democracy. It took Erdogan’s Islamist government a decade to flip Turkey. I predicted that things would go much faster in Egypt, where they never tried an 80-year secularization project, where Islamic supremacism has deep roots, and where the Brotherhood has always been a powerhouse. It’s happening. Fast. - NRO, Andrew C. McCarthy, author - Spring Fever: The Illusion of Islamic Democracy
 
425Tree
      ID: 1910562515
      Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 08:42
Just as I told you plainly from day one:

The country is aflame again because there is no “Arab Spring.” We are witnessing the rise of Islamic supremacists who regard democracy not as a way of life but as a route to power. Rather than opposing them, Obama is the wind at their backs.


or, it could be business as usual in Egypt.

But, as shocking as Morsy's actions are, they do not prove that Islamists cannot be democrats. Morsy's decision to grant himself unquestioned authority was not the final, spectacularly public phase in some hitherto clandestine Muslim Brotherhood plan to erect a holy autocracy. Instead, the Egyptian president simply did what Egyptian presidents have been doing for more than 60 years — that is, loosening institutional restraints on their authority in order to more easily fulfill their agendas.
 
426Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 09:26
I think there's still a bit to play out before assessments can be made regarding Morsi's intentions.

Meanwhile
Egypt, Qatar and Turkey. That triumvirate played a leading role in helping end the eight-day conflict between Israel and Gaza, in large part by embracing Hamas and luring it further away from the Iran-Syria-Hezbollah fold, offering diplomatic clout and promises of hefty aid.

For the United States and Israel, the shifting dynamics offer a chance to isolate a resurgent Iran, limit its access to the Arab world and make it harder for Tehran to arm its agents on Israel’s border. But the gains are also tempered, because while these Sunni leaders are willing to work with Washington, unlike the mullahs in Tehran, they also promote a radical religious-based ideology that has fueled anti-Western sentiment around the region.

Hamas — which received missiles from Iran that reached Israel’s northern cities — broke with the Iranian axis last winter, openly backing the rebellion against the Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad. But its affinity with the Egypt-Qatar-Turkey axis came to fruition this fall.

“That camp has more assets that it can share than Iran — politically, diplomatically, materially,” said Robert Malley, the Middle East program director for the International Crisis Group. “The Muslim Brotherhood is their world much more so than Iran.”

The Gaza conflict helps illustrate how Middle Eastern alliances have evolved since the Islamist wave that toppled one government after another beginning in January 2011. Iran had no interest in a cease-fire, while Egypt, Qatar and Turkey did.
 
427Boldwin
      ID: 291029284
      Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 20:36
File this one away for later:

Egypt’s Islamist President Heaps Praise On Obama, “He Has Been Very Helpful, Very Helpful”
 
428Boldwin
      ID: 291029284
      Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 20:45
Morsi is to the world's 1.8 billion Sunni population what Ayatollah Khomeini was to the world's .16 billion Shia
 
429Tree
      ID: 1910562515
      Thu, Nov 29, 2012, 00:47
Egypt’s Islamist President Heaps Praise On Obama, “He Has Been Very Helpful, Very Helpful”

nothing like plagiarism across the right wing blogosphere.

and, as usual, deception.

that praise had everything to do with the ceasefire between Gaza and Israel...

nothing like more dishonesty there Baldwin.
 
430Boldwin
      ID: 54115211
      Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 13:48
Obama admin actually steered the Egyptian revolution away from reformers and into the arms of the MB.
 
431Boldwin
      ID: 521116123
      Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 00:17
More 'Smart Diplomacy'

Muslim Brotherhood’s “Paid Rapists” Sexually Assault Female Protesters
 
432Boldwin
      ID: 521116123
      Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 00:24
RAND corporation aiding and abetting the MB
 
433Boldwin
      ID: 521116123
      Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 15:17
Detailed and sophisticated Egyptian analysis from an Egyptian.
 
434Boldwin
      ID: 481111221
      Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 22:11
SUDAN. CHRISTIANS IN THE OIL-RICH NUBA MOUNTAINSB ARE BEING TARGETED WITH “TREMENDOUS” FORCE...
 
435Boldwin
      ID: 101142410
      Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 16:21
Outside Morsi's palace:

 
436Boldwin
      ID: 23111863
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 13:44
The fork in the road. Critical mass approaches. Will it be all out genocide of the Allewites or will they manage to carve out and hold a lasting redoubt on the coast and around Damascus?
 
438Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 14:07
Just to get this straight, after more than a year of lambasting the president for going easy on Assad while he called for Khadafi's and Mubarak's ouster, you are now defending Assad from the NATO-supported Libyan uprising because you think he and his people aren't fully Muslim?
 
439Boldwin
      ID: 23111863
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 14:42
Here is what your MB looks like.



[The thugs, not the Egyptian kid]

Gratz on 'spring'ing that country.
 
440Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 15:47
I'll take the non-response to the question in 438 as an affirmative.
 
441Boldwin
      ID: 23111863
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 17:14
MITH

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.

I have never at any time supported any 'Arab Spring' uprising in any sunni country as they will all inevitably result in a Muslim Brotherhood dictatorship and lead inexorably to a world war.
 
442Boldwin
      ID: 23111863
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 17:18
And no, pointing out contradictions in O's policies does not at anytime constitute support for any 'Arab Spring' salafist takeover.
 
443Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 19:17
Boldy 2/23/2011:
Khadafi has been a friend and supporter of Obamas friends Wright, Farrakhan and Phleger.

Khadafi gave Jeremiah Wright a $5 million dollar prsonal loan in 1985.

Farrakhan was the recipient in 1996 of the Gadhafi Human Rights Award, which came with a $250,000 prize. [you cant make this stuff up]

David Axelrod, Obamas top political advisor [tho jewish] sits on the finance committee of St. Sabina, the Chicago Catholic parish that was led by controversial pastor Michael Pfleger, an outspoken Farrakhan supporter who hosted the Nation of Islam chief at his parish several times.

Because, oh I dunno, the lapdog press might forget to tell you.

How soon does he have to go, Obama?



Boldy 2/24/2011:
All the world leaders who called Mubarak with their deadlines for him to leave owe us an explanation as to why other tyrants are receiving different treatment.



Of course two days later Obama called for Khadafi to step down, otherwise we surely would have been treated to more of the same.

Don't feel bad B, you weren't the only American observer who couldn't resist exploiting a bloody uprising to score cheap political points. Recall newt Gingrich attacking Obama for failing to provide air support to the Libyan rebels - until Obama did just that, prompting Gingrich to attack Obama for providing air support to the Libyan rebels
 
444Boldwin
      ID: 51144621
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 22:44
Again, pointing out inconsistencies is not making recommendations. I was very clear from day one that the arab spring was just a globalist ploy to bring on a world war. That there would be nothing but the well organized MB taking advantage of all revolutions in sunni countries.

Even when plenty of conservative politicians were fooled for a while, I was not fooled for even a day about where this would end up.
 
445Boldwin
      ID: 51144621
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 22:46
Just read the link in post #2.
 
446Tree
      ID: 1910562515
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 22:47
I was not fooled for even a day about where this would end up.

remind us again where this has ended up, that you so correctly predicted?
 
447Boldwin
      ID: 51144621
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 00:33
Let me think, was it the religion of peace throwing flower petals and farting rainbows as they pass?

No....no...it was salafist dictatorships coming up with novel new ways to be cruel, like crucifying liberals in front of president Morsi's palace.
 
448Boldwin
      ID: 51144621
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 00:35
Or salafists flying black al qaeda flags sodomizing our diplomatic corps without any military response from Obama.
 
449sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 00:42
How many military people need to die on the sands of far away lands, to appease your sense of patriotism?
 
450Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 06:15
I'd ask how many fake reports about sodomized diplomats he'd prefer to believe over the truth.
 
451Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 09:30
I was very clear from day one that the arab spring was just a globalist ploy to bring on a world war.

One would be hard pressed to find two words with less clarity than "globalist ploy." One would also be hard pressed to lay out the foundation for a modern world war. I have challenged you several times to detail how such a scenario is imminent, and the responses have not only had no clarity, they show a complete ignorance of current geo-political conditions in favor of non-sensical pre-conceived notions that Muslims are poised to conquer the world.

I was very clear

I'm going to chalk this up to unintended comedy. You haven't been clear in any sense of the word.
 
452Boldwin
      ID: 51144621
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 10:41
I don't know how to bring clarity to the mind of a liberal, but I do know how to pick a position from day one, stick to it and state my position consistently.

Why the threat isn't obvious I don't understand. All of Islam stands on the premise of bringing about a world-wide califate. One the they are actually asked to bring about militarily.

The threat is following historical models that have worked in the past.

Virtually no one is resisting the threat and it hardly looks as if anyone will until it is too late.

The liberal half of the population acts more sympathetic to the enemy than to their own culture.

Why wouldn't the threat be credible? Who and what is going to stop it?
 
453sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 11:45
All of Islam Christianity stands on the premise of bringing about a world-wide califateclaim. One the they arehave actually askedtried three times to bring about militarily.

There ya go. Historic accuracy vs radical fear mongering.
 
454sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 11:46
449 and 450 btw, are awaiting your response.
 
455Boldwin
      ID: 51144621
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 11:59
I don't recall General MacArthur converting Japan by the sword. WTF are you talking about, Sarge?
 
456boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 13:10
Re 453: Historically I think everyone is guilty of that one.
 
457Boldwin
      ID: 51144621
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 13:29
I couldn't disagree more. Even Ann Coulter doesn't seriously believe that.
 
458sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 13:46
1st and 2nd Crusades...and the 3rd Crusade, launched by George W Bush. (In response to 455)....449 and 450, still await.
 
459boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 16:23
i think the W crusade would be at least the 5th, if my memory is correct there where 4 crusades plus a children's, earlier. But every major religion seems to have a crusade against another at some point, though the crusades were not about about world wide domination but about retaking of holyland and plundering, but mostly plundering in the name of the lord. The more accurate description would be the Spanish inquisition and missionaries of the 16th century.
 
461sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 17:20
phoney
 
462Boldwin
      ID: 3211181118
      Wed, Dec 12, 2012, 06:29
Insider explains Benghazi and Syria.

Iran/Russia/Syria vs Obama/MB. Iranian spies held in 'consolate', not actually a 'consulate', Turkey arms shipments.
 
463Boldwin
      ID: 2811321220
      Wed, Dec 12, 2012, 23:19
Obama officially backs jihadists in Syria, slaughter of Alawite village follows.
 
464Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 13:41
Michael Totten in Marrakech, Morocco, attending the fourth meeting of the Friends of Syria gathering.
It's safe to say most of us in this room detest the Syrian regime and wish to see it destroyed, and I confess to feelings of vindication. For years I took flak in the Levant for describing Bashar al-Assad as the villain of the region rather than the Zionist Entity, but here we are. This room full of Arabs has at least partially come around to my point of view. Not that they like Israel any more than they used to, of course, but Israel isn't to blame for the tens of thousands killed. Everybody knows that. It has been some time now—well over a year—since a single person, Arab or Western, has given me even an ounce of grief for describing Assad and his regime of Baath Party fascists as the principle arsonists of the Eastern Mediterranean.


The United States government now recognizes the Syrian opposition as the sole legitimate representative of the Syrian people. This is good and proper, but let's not kid ourselves, okay? The Syrian opposition is only united temporarily. Secular and Islamist factions will battle it out in the aftermath. They know it. Believe me, they do. They're united right now because they have to get rid of Assad. They'll settle their own accounts later. Sunnis and Alawites are likely to slug it out, too. And there might even be fighting between Arabs and Kurds. When the next phase starts in earnest, there will be no sole legitimate representative of the Syrian people.
 
465Boldwin
      ID: 411191315
      Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 16:37
Sunnis and Alawites are likely to slug it out, too.

The Alawites are already on Bashar al-Assad side. He is the only thing that has been keeping them safe from the sunnis all these years.
 
466Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 17:18
On any topic regarding the Middle East, I'd believe a single unfounded sentence fragment from Totten over a library full of claims made by Boldwin's favorite sources.
 
467Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 17:48
That didn't come out quite as intended. You get the point.

There are few journalists I respect more and if anything he leans right more often than left. That seemed to be the case during that Georgia/Russia dustup, anyway.
 
468Boldwin
      ID: 411191315
      Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 21:34
Read up. The Alewites are the ones under attack when Assad is attacked, not some other group.
 
469bibA
      ID: 54522612
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 10:01
I just don't get it Baldwin. You plainly hate on the Shia in Iran, but on the other hand, are very pro-Shia in Syria. Seems a bit inconsistent. And you apparently are pro Ba'ath.

It just seems that you wait until Obama is forced to take a stand on a side in a conflict, and then you automatically take the opposite, no matter how many fellow countrymen that side is willing to slaughter in order to maintain power.
 
470Boldwin
      ID: 331138143
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 11:22
I'm against genocide. Alewite, Sunni, Shia, doesn't matter.

I'm against the current course of doing everything humanly possible to create WWIII.

When people have been clearly saying they want to violently take over the world, and they've been saying it for 70 years, and we then hand them the keys to controlling a third of the world's population I don't think it's hard to see the problem with that.
 
471Boldwin
      ID: 331138143
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 11:25
And considering the Iranian Ayatollah controls @.16 billion muslims, and the sunni's comprise @1.8 billion people, I think the massive trouble Iran has made for the USA will pale into insignificance compared to the problem Morsi will shortly become.
 
472Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 12:26
The Alawites are already on Bashar al-Assad side. He is the only thing that has been keeping them safe from the sunnis all these years.

That's about as distorted and one-sided an analysis as you'll find on these boards. The Alawites have been a main cog in the Syrian army since the Ba'ath took over Syria in the 50s, and have been more than willing participants in the genocide you claim to abhor.

When people have been clearly saying they want to violently take over the world, and they've been saying it for 70 years, and we then hand them the keys to controlling a third of the world's population I don't think it's hard to see the problem with that.

The only coherent part of that sentence is I don't think.

You see, in order for that sentence to be coherent, you would have to:

1)Clearly quote several Muslim leaders plans and strategies for violently taking over the world over the past 70 years. Talking real military leaders here, like Saadam Hussein, Gamel Abdul Nassar, Perfez Musharraf, General Suharto.

Guys like this don't qualify.

2)Explain how we(Americans? Europeans? Chinese? Peruvians? All of the above?) handed them the keys to controlling a third of the world's population. Sure, we've been arming Saudi Arabia and Egypt big time; and Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and whoever else we thought would help curb the spread of USSR influence in decades past, but the implication is that this is a new development.

3)Claiming that the Iranian Ayatollah controls @.16 billion muslims and suggesting that Morsi controls 1.8 billion people is like saying that Obama controls 300 million Americans, or the Pope controls a billion Catholics.

You haven't really thought about this at all.
 
473Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 12:27
The only coherent part of that sentence is I don't think.

Ha!
 
474Boldwin
      ID: 1611461416
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 18:17
PV
The Alawites have been a main cog in the Syrian army since the Ba'ath took over Syria in the 50s, and have been more than willing participants in the genocide you claim to abhor.
The genocide is what will automatically happen to the Alewites when the MB takes over.
you would have to:

1)Clearly quote several Muslim leaders plans and strategies for violently taking over the world over the past 70 years. Talking real military leaders here, like Saadam Hussein, Gamel Abdul Nassar, Perfez Musharraf, General Suharto.
What the hell are you talking about? The now in power MB have been telling the world plainly about their hoped for muslim takeover of the world for their entire 70 years. The people you name have been roadblocks [despite all their own extremism] to the MB's designs of a one world totalitarian caliphate government.
Explain how we(Americans? Europeans? Chinese? Peruvians? All of the above?) handed them the keys to controlling a third of the world's population.
Every thot leader and political leader who facilitated the arab spring has started the dominos falling for the MB. They are too well organized. There is nothing that is going to stop them until they reach the boundaries of the 'ummah' and their targets beyond that are completely in denial and unprepared.
Claiming that the Iranian Ayatollah controls
Muslims living under his Shia rule have the choice of following his lead or dieing.

Muslims under the coming united Sunni territories will have no survivable choice but to follow Morsi's lead, no matter how 'secular' or moderate' or uninclined to do so as they may be.
 
475Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 19:11
The now in power MB have been telling the world plainly about their hoped for muslim takeover of the world for their entire 70 years

Quotes please? When you say, now in power, could you please document which militaries are now controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, maybe even one who could conquer, say, Greece?

What are you talking about? You can't document any great Muslim Brotherhood military leaders, because none exist. All you're doing is speculating - the coming united Sunni territories - based on a hysterical paranoia that is, quite honestly, unhealthy.
 
476Boldwin
      ID: 1611461416
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 19:38
Unlike some people around here, I've been following the MB since the Russians were in Afghanistan. I've been reading what they say in translations From Memri. Reading Daniel Pipes since 9/11. The forces against them in the sunni world have no chance, no chance of overcoming their organizational edge. This is obvious to anyone who understands what they've been doing for 70 years.
 
477Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 20:00
This is obvious to anyone who understands what they've been doing for 70 years.

Which excludes you. Your attempt to make the Muslim Brotherhood some kind of umbrella group for every Islamist movement, every call for jihad, is laughably lacking in real research. While their influence is certainly powerful, it is almost exclusively Arab. Of course, Al Qaida's roots are Arabic as well, so that doesn't exclude them from being a player in Islamist movements here and there, but their role has never been as a military entity, like Chechens Shamil Basayev and Ibn al-Khattab, or the Taliban's Anwar Haq Mujahid.

It's also historically naive to believe Morsi has the kind of control of the Egyptian military that Nasser did. He may have virtually no control at all. Yet you have him uniting Sunnis worldwide and marching on Moscow, Beijing and Buenos Aires. Ludicrous.



 
478Boldwin
      ID: 1611461416
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 22:35
They're operation is sooo much more sophisticated than just open warfare and they are already inside all countries working to take them down now. I'm not saying what percentage of the way they are to achieving their goals in each country, but as soon as we agree to not even speak ill of them as is already the case in Europe and generally true here, it's just a matter of time until it reaches critical.
 
479Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 23:10
they are already inside all countries

According to the MB English language website,

Members of the organization are found in Bahrain, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Algeria, Sudan, Somalia, Tunisia, Libya, and the United States.

More paranoid hysteria.
 
480Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 23:19
Excellent objective analysis on the situation in Egypt.
 
481Boldwin
      ID: 1611461416
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 04:51
All is proceeding as I have foreseen. It is interesting that both the Iranian takeover and the Egyptian takeovers were facilitated by the west and specifically by the American presidents Carter and Obama respectively.
 
482Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 09:23
All is proceeding as I have foreseen.

Good Steven Colbert impersonation.
 
483Tree
      ID: 21146158
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 09:46
All is proceeding as I have foreseen.

Good Steven Colbert impersonation.


well, actually, he's plagiarizing The Emperor from Return of the Jedi. almost word-for-word, substituting "all" for "everything".
 
484Boldwin
      ID: 2411531510
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 12:25
Members of the organization can be found within the Obama administration.
 
485Boldwin
      ID: 2411531510
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 12:28
Even the Emporer Palpatine cannot out-pith me. By 7 letters 8>
 
486Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 13:07
I'm not saying what percentage of the way they are to achieving their goals in each country

That's a relief, since your research is shoddy, your anlysis is sophmoric and your slavish devotion to Front Page and World Net Daily renders you incapable of intelligently discussing the issue.
 
487Boldwin
      ID: 2411531510
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 13:11
The fact that you can't even bring yourself to deal with the reality of the islamist agenda, their tactics and their successes renders you totally incapable of stopping it. They could walk right up to you and ask for the jizya and you would be forking it over today.
 
488Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 13:31
you can't even bring yourself to deal with the reality of the islamist agenda

I can't bring myself to deal with your reality of the Islamist agenda, because, as I have pointed out numerous times, it's not based on reality.

the MB's designs of a one world totalitarian caliphate government.

Maybe you haven't noticed. The MB in Egypt, where their organization is the most potent, is in a struggle to establish a constitution based on Islamic Sharia. The opposition in Egypt is formidable, and, ultimately, as the link in #480 explains, the Egyptian military is an extraordinarily complex and influential organization, the enmity between it and the Muslim Brotherhood has run deep for over half a century, and the situation is explosive enough to raise fears that further instability could lead to an army coup.

You're so stuck on your one world totalitarian caliphate government, that you refuse to consider that it is nothing more than a few words strung together instead of an iminent reality. I'm fully aware of the Islamist agenda. I'm aware of the Jacksonville Jaguars agenda to win the Super Bowl next year, and they're a hell of a lot closer to that goal than the Muslim Brotherhood is to establishing a one world totalitarian caliphate government, or even totalitarian caliphate government in the greater Arab world.
 
489Boldwin
      ID: 2411531510
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 13:40
The Muslim Brotherhood, now freed from Mubarrak, is as likely to rule the sunnis as a Democrat is to be the next mayor of Chicago.
 
490Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 13:47
#489

Well, that convinces me that the Muslim Brotherhood is well within reach of a one world totalitarian caliphate government.

Clownish has become the standard for your posts.
 
491Boldwin
      ID: 2411531510
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 14:08
They have an organization as old as any observer.

They're opposition was either just born yesterday or just had their head cut off when Morsi forced the military leadership to resign.

It's a done deal.
 
492Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 14:15
The link in #491 was previously covered in my #480. Try and keep up.
 
493Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 14:20
Every other post might as well say "Thank you sir! May I have another?"
 
494Boldwin
      ID: 2411531510
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 14:28
And yet you still pretend the military is a realistic counter to the NB powergrab.

Keep up with yer own links.
 
495Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 15:39
you still pretend

From the guy who says,

"All is proceeding as I have foreseen."

You can pretend you're Nostradamus, with no actual prophecy having come to fruition, because it adds a rather humorous element of the bizzare to the forum.

 
496Boldwin
      ID: 2411531510
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 15:41
I thot it was humorous. And obviously you haven't truly considered how long the military can hold back Morsi's ambition and the MB.
 
497Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 10:21
Charter with narrow lead after 1st round of voting
 
498Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 16:45
And obviously you haven't truly considered how long the military can hold back Morsi's ambition and the MB.

Have you?
 
499Boldwin
      ID: 2111321622
      Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 00:35
All Morsi needs to do is keep firing military commanders until he gets down to the ones loyal to the MB. Just a matter of time. And in case you didn't notice, Morsi just won the first round of referenda voting in an Islamist sharia constitution.

Military not withstanding.
 
500Boldwin
      ID: 51147176
      Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 07:48
Just how confident did that trepidary...'for now'...at the end look to you, PV? 8>

It does raise an interesting factor in the decision to give Egypt 20 new F-18's. Keep the military in power just a bit longer at the cost of making Israel's future even dimmer.

I suspect Egypt gets the ego pumping 'numbers' of F-18's but they have base models with barely an AM radio and Israel's 'full boat' F-18's are supposed to still be able to deal with them.

That's the way these things usually go, but with Obama in charge, who knows?
 
501Boldwin
      ID: 51147176
      Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 07:51
All Morsi needs to do is keep firing military commanders

Kinda like the way our military worked it's way down to commanders who would obey the order to stand down and not defend our people in Benghazi.
 
502Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 09:50
And in case you didn't notice, Morsi just won the first round of referenda voting in an Islamist sharia constitution

Noticed and linked to it in #497.

As for the Islamic Sharia constitution, do you realize that the current Egyptian constitution, adopted in 1971, reads exactly the same as the currently proposed one?

1971 - Article 2: Islam is the religion of the state and Arabic its official language. Principles of Islamic law [shari'a] are the principal source of legislation.

Proposed 2012 constitution - Article 2: Islam is the religion of the state and Arabic its official language. Principles of Islamic law [shari'a] are the principal source of legislation.

Analysis - This article was left unchanged, much to the satisfaction of Egypt's opposition. It references the very nebulous "principles of shari'a"; some Islamists, particularly salafi groups, had pushed for a stricter application of Islamic law.


#499, 500 and 501 are simply more posts confirming a non-serious approach to discussing the issue, though not quite as ridiculous as They could walk right up to you and ask for the jizya and you would be forking it over today.

How is it possible to discuss complex geo-political issues when you insist on dumbing things down to such levels?




 
503Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 09:54
Forgot the link in #502:

Comparing 1971 constitution to proposed 2012
 
504Boldwin
      ID: 191141719
      Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 20:19
I'm sure you've also seen comparisons between the USSR and USA constitution. Devil is in the details and the execution. Which doesn't prevent me from discussing it with great sophistication.
 
506Boldwin
      ID: 191141719
      Tue, Dec 18, 2012, 16:36
Wonderful find.
 
507Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Tue, Dec 18, 2012, 16:53
Then go find it yourself.
 
508Boldwin
      ID: 191141719
      Tue, Dec 18, 2012, 18:03
WTF was that?

I've run across Totten before but hadn't realized I needed to bookmark him. One of the alternative media people who need monetary support instead of the MSM. I had previously steered clear of World Affairs Journal, confusing/conflating it with Current Affairs, a CFR publication.

WAJ has rubbed elbow way too much with Soro's Open Society for me to look at them comfortably but whatchagonnado. Totten is essential.
 
509Boldwin
      ID: 191141719
      Tue, Dec 18, 2012, 18:07
For those curious over MITH's lil mindsnap in #507, he decided to make this wonderful find unavailable to me/you/us. WTF was that over?
 
510Boldwin
      ID: 191141719
      Tue, Dec 18, 2012, 19:08
I still don't get how he thinks the Alewite extinction will occur sometime different than the Assad regime extinction. Unless they manage to carve out a refuge kingdom toehold on the landscape, I don't know what they can do to survive. Maybe migrate to southern Lebanon, which will also be in trouble.
 
511Boldwin
      ID: 51036421
      Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 22:54
Egypt’s Chief Public Prosecutor Talaat Ibrahim has ordered an investigation in an accusation against the Muslim Brotherhood of receiving 10 billion Egyptian pounds from the United States, asking for the sources of the Brotherhood’s money to be revealed. According to Aswat Masriya, the two plaintiffs claimed that the United States granted the Brotherhood the money illegally to back its interests in the region.
Put that on the graves of the secular and the Coptic...Made In America.

By Obama.
 
512Boldwin
      ID: 51036421
      Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 23:57
In the first interview, aired on Lebanon's Al-Quds TV on September 23, 2010, Morsi denounced the Palestinian Authority as a creation of "the Zionist and American enemies for the sole purpose of opposing the will of the Palestinian people." Therefore, he stressed, "No reasonable person can expect any progress on this track."

"Either [you accept] the Zionists and everything they want, or else it is war," Morsi said, "This is what these occupiers of the land of Palestine know – these blood-suckers, who attack the Palestinians, these warmongers, the descendants of apes and pigs."
---
"Pressure should be exerted upon them," Morsi continued, so that Jews should "not be given any opportunity [to] stand on any Arab or Islamic land."

In a separate interview translated by MEMRI, aired on the same network on March 20, 2010, Morsi affirmed that "The Zionists have no right to the land of Palestine.... What they took before 1947-8 constitutes plundering, and what they are doing now is a continuation of this plundering. By no means do we recognize their Green Line. The land of Palestine belongs to the Palestinians, not to the Zionists."

He therefore called on the Islamic world "to confront this Zionist entity" and to severe "all ties of all kinds...with this plundering criminal entity," including a total boycott of Israel and the avoidance of "normalization of relations with it."

Morsi concluded that the Arab-Islamic world "want[s] a country for the Palestinians on the entire land of Palestine...[and] all the talk about a two-state solution and about peace is nothing but an illusion."
This is what you bought.
 
513Boldwin
      ID: 51036421
      Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 03:48
Sudan is Egypt's future.

1) pay lip-service to pluralism and equality until the grip on power is strong.

2) Install sharia and declare that anyone opposing it, including Muslims, are infidels and apostates to be killed.
 
514Boldwin
      ID: 13025520
      Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 00:09
Egypt’s Rose El-Youssef magazine, in a Dec. 22 story, said the six men turned the White House “from a position hostile to Islamic groups and organizations in the world to the largest and most important supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood.”
 
515Boldwin
      ID: 150152221
      Tue, Jan 22, 2013, 22:16
Mali has nothing to do with al qeada, no matter what they tell you.

The Mali's getting killed are just some tribe, the Tuareg, who have been getting shafted by the Power Elite ever since French colonialism began. In much the same way as the Kurds have been handed the short end of the stick forever.

Far from being al qeada, these are the mercenaries who used to work for Kadafi, [because it was the only job around left for them after France foreclosed on their prospects in Mali]. Part of the reason Kadafi lost out was that the Power Elite bribed [with false promises] the Tuareg into abandoning Kadafi. These are neither Kadafi loyalists or al qeada. What they are are the rightful owners of the Mali uranium France seeks to maintain monopoly control over.

 
516Boldwin
      ID: 150152221
      Tue, Jan 22, 2013, 22:20
Altho I will say, it's not inconceivable they might be pushed into al qeada's arms if they see no other path to survival.
 
517Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Tue, Jan 22, 2013, 23:01
Nice to see Baldwin with a somewhat precise analysis of the situation in Northern Mali. The Tauregs, like the Kurds, are secular oriented Muslims, who fought for independence(and won), then fell victim to the radical Islamic jihadists.

Don't let the title of this article keep you from reading this excellent background on the subject

Let me also state that coverage on all the news networks has been woefully lacking. That's why it's exciting to see Al Jazeera TV enter the cable news arena instead of Glenn Beck and his brand of schtick.
 
518Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 11:06
OK, I was finally able to take a half hour this morning to watch the entire video in #515. While there is a lot of good stuff on the colonial background(though presented in a biased anti-French tilt by a Brit), and some other good pertinent information, the narrator fails to differentiate the groups involved, and actually provides some misinformation by inferring that the MNLA(National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad), the Taureg separatist movement, is the entity moving south toward Bamako that prompted the French to respond with troops and air strikes. There is no mention of Ansar Dine, the Taureg movement committed to jihad, or al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM), which isn't a Taureg movement at all, but a pan-Islamic jihad movement, the kind Boldwin usually warns us is on the verge of establishing a world-wide Islamic caliphate. There's no establishment of the fact that most Tauregs are moderate or secular oriented Muslims, at odds with the fundamentalist Islamic movements bent on establishing Sharia a la the Muslim Brotherhood.

Like the Kurds, who have entities like the PKK, KDP, PUK and others with diverse interests, goals and objectives, the Tauregs can't be type-cast so easily as the video in #515 attempts to do.

It does, however, establish that the Tauregs, like the Kurds, have been victimized by(using Boldwin's term for the sake of brevity)the Power Elite, in large part because of the natural resources in the region.
 
519Boldwin
      ID: 30412311
      Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 12:41
I am still double-checking my source's denials that they are al qeada. Or to see to what extent al qeada is exploiting the situation. Gotta get down to the heart of the matter with AQIM and the various factions in Benghazi to better get the flavor of the thing.

I love Williamson, but sometimes wonder if he doesn't let his isolationism color his perceptions.
 
520Boldwin
      ID: 30412311
      Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 13:29
Back in the middle of last year the secular Tuareg and the local islamists were in a battle to the death between each other, more actively fighting for leadship of the rebellion than against the official Mali government.

This recent Rueters report suggests the Tuereg and AQIM are allies now. Of course similarly in Syria the Islamists and the secularists are allied against Assad, and that won't matter after they take over either. It will be death to anyone not Islamist.

FWIW, [not much in my view] Leon Paneta says flat out the 'insurgency' is al qeada.
 
521Boldwin
      ID: 30412311
      Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 15:52
USA now airlifting French into Mali.
 
522boikin
      ID: 430211013
      Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 19:44
I think I remember reading of hearing no boots on ground in Africa...whoops there must something valuable in the Sahara. Secretary of State Clinton comments on the situation in north Africa.

While not directly saying so, every indication from here comments are things don't get better under African/french troops...America will be coming in.
 
523Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 20:55
...America will be coming in.

Probably not in Mali, probably not even as much as we have been in Somalia.

The only reason this came to a head is the AQIM-led rebels became overconfident and decided to direct their jihad south toward Bamako. We've pretty much already established that no one cared when the AQIM and Ansar Dine defeated the MNLA and basically took over Northern Mali. Noboby cared that secular Muslims in Timbuktu and Gao were getting their hands chopped off and women flogged for not wearing the hijab according to harsh interpretations of sharia.
They only started to care when it looked like the Mali that supports the corporate exploitation of Western and Saharan Africa might be threatened by the radical Musilm onslaught that has been functioning unmolested in Mali for a long time.
So, the French and some troops from a few African nations will drive the invaders back to the north and all will be forgotten.
 
524Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Thu, Jan 24, 2013, 10:18
Somewhat major development among rebel alliances.

Mali's rebel movement showed new signs of discord on Thursday in the wake of punishing French air strikes, with one wing of the Ansar Dine group now pledging to negotiate an end to the country's crisis and possibly even fight against its former comrades-in-arms.

Three al-Qaida-linked extremist groups have controlled Mali's vast northeast for months, capitalizing on chaos that followed a coup d'etat in Mali's capital, Bamako, in March. But in a new sign of splintering, former Ansar Dine leader Alghabass Ag Intalla told the Associated Press on Thursday that he and his men were breaking off from Ansar Dine "so that we can be in control of our own fate."

"We are neither AQIM or MUJAO," he said of the other groups, al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb and the Movement for the Unity and Jihad in West Africa, known by its French-language acronym. "We are a group of people from the north of Mali who have a set of grievances that date back at least 50 years."

"We are not terrorists. We are ready to negotiate," Intalla told the AP.


This should highlight the fact that the rebels can't be lumped into any type of simple definition. Boldwin claims they are far from being al qeada, and in a way that it correct, even though a main faction calls itself al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb. While this faction, inspired and populated as much by foreign (mostly Arab) influences, is focused on jihad, a large faction of the Taureg movement is focused on autonomy.

Intalla is an ethnic Tuareg.

An elected official from Kidal, who insisted on anonymity for fear of reprisal, told the AP Thursday that the split was a long time coming and reflected how Ansar Dine, which took over the northern city of Kidal, enlisted large numbers of fighters and coopted local authorities for economic and political reasons — not ideological ones. Intalla, the heir to Kidal's traditional ruler, isn't believed to be a radical Muslim, he added.

It will be interesting to see how this develops. It's never been clear how much support the jihadist(al Qeada-linked)faction has among the Tauregs, but it would seem prudent for France, the UN, and other relevant players to attempt to further marginalize the jihadists by negotiating with the Tauregs whose main objective is some form of autonomy for Azawad.




 
525boikin
      ID: 430211013
      Thu, Jan 24, 2013, 11:15
re 523: I think you pretty much wrote out what will happen, just to clarify what I was saying was that if france/african troops can not drive the invaders back then the probability that you see american troops becomes a lot higher
 
526Boldwin
      ID: 310182420
      Thu, Jan 24, 2013, 21:49
So, the French and some troops from a few African nations will drive the invaders back to the north and all will be forgotten.

It will be interesting to learn where the power elite will draw the boundaries of the next world war alliances. If it's a majority moslem country, I'd be amazed if they don't concede it to the caliphate.
 
527Boldwin
      ID: 310182420
      Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 00:16
Blogging Heads hosts a native Mali [blogger?] to explain the situation.
 
528Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Tue, Jan 29, 2013, 10:46
So, the French and some troops from a few African nations will drive the invaders back to the north and all will be forgotten.

Looks like I was completely off base with that prediction as
the French are warmly welcomed in Timbuktu and Gao.

Residents were still cheering French and Malian troops when we entered the city late in the afternoon.

Both national flags can be seen all over town. The feeling that people are coming back to life after nearly a year of occupation by extremist militants is simply incredible.


Despite initial incidents of atrocities by the Malian army, the French-led operation has to be considered stunningly successful.


Kindal remains the only Northern city controlled by rebels, and it's unclear exactly who's got the upper hand there and what will transpire when French/Malian/AU forces reach the remote outpost.

A strategic northeastern Malian city situated not far from the Algerian border, Kidal was the first city to fall to Islamist militants last year and it has remained a no-go zone for the international community over the past 10 months.

In a phone interview with FRANCE 24 on Monday, a spokesman for the MNLA (National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad) – which describes itself as a secular Tuareg secessionist movement – said the group currently controls Kidal.

"We entered Kidal Monday morning, we placed checkpoints at all entrances and have divided the neighbourhoods,” said Moussa ag Acharatoumane, a senior MNLA official.

But in a sign of the shifting allegiances among rebel groups in northern Mali, a splinter group that broke away from the Ansar Dine Islamists said it also controls Kidal and is working with the MNLA to secure the northern Malian city.


It's safe to say the jihadists are defeated and relegated to hiding in desert caves, left with no allies or popular support. That's not to say they can't resurface, since the strategy was to retreat rather than go head to head with the French, but the Sahara is even more unforgiving than Afghanistan logistically. Even jihadists need food and water, not to mention the ability to re-supply weapons and ammunition as well as fuel and parts for transportation. Mali isn't bordered by a Pakistan and Iran which can provide a continuous supply of support to what is basically a rag tag bunch of desert rats with no state sponsor. A few million bucks ransom reaped from kidnappings can't compete with a multi-national force intent on marginalization.

It will be interesting to learn where the power elite will draw the boundaries of the next world war alliances. If it's a majority moslem country, I'd be amazed if they don't concede it to the caliphate.

I was curious how the media that promotes this school of thought was reporting on this wildly successful operation against the jihad in Mali, so I visited
WND World.

There's isn't one mention of Mali among the numerous stories and opinion pieces - nary a mention.
Looks like WND is holding to the old adage - "if you can't say something good about something, don't say anything at all."
 
529boikin
      ID: 430211013
      Tue, Jan 29, 2013, 11:35
US plans drone base in africa.

Maybe not quite boots on ground but clearly a lot closer than you would have thought a month ago. I wonder how much this has to do with al queda and how much this has to do with fact that we are losing dominance to Chinese in Africa?
 
530Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Tue, Jan 29, 2013, 12:51
I wonder how much this has to do with al queda and how much this has to do with fact that we are losing dominance to Chinese in Africa?

Look at the countries being proposed for the base - Niger and Burkina Faso. While they both share a border with Mali, they also share a border with a much more important country - Nigeria - not just Nigeria, but Northern Nigeria, home to Boko Haram and Ansaru, violent Islamic jihadists. Ironically, I used a link from WND World, because Nigeria is one country where Boldwin's fears of Muslims slaughtering Christians is an absolute reality, and the strategic importance of Nigeria in the scope of African geo-politics can't be understated.
According to this

2011 list, Nigeria is the #8 world oil exporter and #1 among African countries. China is probably happy if the US works to keep the oil flowing, even as it raises the ire of the Al Qaeda-linked groups, whose original philosophy opposed Western military activity in Muslim lands. Niger is, after all, 90% Muslim.
 
531Boldwin
      ID: 300542912
      Tue, Jan 29, 2013, 13:54
Barbarians at the gate:
The Ahmed Baba Institute, an Islamic learning center in the town of Timbuktu in the West African nation of Mali, holds thousands of ancient drawings and writings from the Quran and everyday life in this point along a historic Saharan caravan route.

On Monday, Timbuktu’s Mayor Ousmane Halle said from Mali’s capital Bamako that he had gotten word Islamist fighters had torched the library as well as his office before retreating. The Malian army, backed by French forces, are working on driving back rebel forces from cities they had taken over last year.
 
532Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Tue, Jan 29, 2013, 14:29
The title of the PBS article linked to in #531

Reports: Ancient Manuscripts in Timbuktu Damaged During Fighting

is false. There was no fighting. The French took the city without firing one shot. The Islamists destroyed the library prior to fleeing.

This is another good example of the US media doing a very poor job covering this story. Cable news outlets have completely abandoned coverage, even usually reliable for international news, CNN.
 
533Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 19:47
Perhaps some of those treasures were hidden ahead of time.

Good news, if so.
 
534Boldwin
      ID: 8154410
      Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 01:38
To be light-skinned in Mali.
 
535Boldwin
      ID: 30137817
      Fri, Feb 08, 2013, 19:37
What spring has sprung.
 
536Boldwin
      ID: 30137817
      Fri, Feb 08, 2013, 19:44
The situation in Tunisia where it supposedly started.
 
537Boldwin
      ID: 49142129
      Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 11:09
Black Jack Pershing's solution.
 
538Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 12:17
#537

There is absolutely no historical record to back the Pershing myth. There is no historical record that supports characterizing the Moro insurgents as "terrorists."
If the term "terrorist" is to be used to decribe elements in the Phillipines, it would apply just as much to the the Spanish and American occupiers who fought not only Moro Muslims from the southern islands, but non-Muslim Philipinos in the northern islands.
 
539Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 20:39
Mark Lynch with a nice piece on social networking and revolution.

An important point from his piece: "[N]egatives such as sectarianism, fear, and hatred spread as rapidly on social media as do more positive ideas."
 
540Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 20:41
Oops--looks like that might be behind a firewall. Free registration required, it looks like, sorry.
 
541Boldwin
      ID: 291531918
      Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 19:53
All you need to understand the war on Syria.

Syria owns it's own central bank. It does not have a Rothschild's owned central bank. Syria is not indebted to the IMF or Rothschild central banks. Syria has not gone along with the Monsanto monopoly on seed supply/food production.

And the NWO doesn't like Syria. Who can explain it. */sarc.
 
542biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 21:01
What war on Syria?
 
543Tree
      ID: 1910562515
      Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 21:23
i think Baldwin is defending Al-Assad. which is totally weird. but then again, not a lot of what he posts these days makes much sense.
 
544Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 21:29
You know--the liberal media war on freedom and enterprise.

Syria owning its own bank isn't a good thing when the owners are corrupt and using the bank reserves for weapons to kill its own citizens.

Talk about missing the point.
 
545Boldwin
      ID: 291531918
      Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 21:31
bili

Follow SyriaGirlPartisan. Far and away the best source I have found on the subject.
 
546Boldwin
      ID: 291531918
      Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 21:33
Slow motion genocide of the Coptic faith hits the Jersey Shore.
 
547Boldwin
      ID: 291531918
      Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 21:35
PD#544

What did you think the Rothschilds are up to? Ahh, you are missing the point entirely.
 
548Boldwin
      ID: 291531918
      Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 21:49
When Georgia won, or was handed it's release from the USSR, it made what was in retrospect a fledgeling mistake. It responded to rebels in Tbilisi by shelling them killing @200 rebels.

Russia, still licking it's wounded pride and wishing to assert 'sphere of influence' decided a proportional response was to surreptitiously support a genocidal wave of ethnic cleansing killing or displacing hundreds of thousands of innocent Georgians.

Oh, look, there's an analog whooshing overhead!

Someday we will look back on the bloodbath that was Syria and the responsible parties won't own their role in that either. There won't be a non-'Muslim Brotherhood' supporter left alive and you will walk away like you never had a clue, never said a word, never facilitated it.
 
549Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 09:48
From #499:

All Morsi needs to do is keep firing military commanders until he gets down to the ones loyal to the MB. Just a matter of time.

Looks like Morsi is having a hard time finding any military commanders loyal to the MB. It's more likely that it's just a matter of time before the military decides to take matters into its own hands and replace Morsi altogether.

Egypt's military signals impatience with Morsi
 
550Boldwin
      ID: 511322113
      Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 18:02
I would so love that to be true.
 
551Boldwin
      ID: 31251917
      Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 21:10
These are the people Obama is supporting.

The FSA.

I could show you other videos of the FSA making children dig their own graves, beating to death people with belts...lovely bunch Obama is supporting.
 
552Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 22:01
Lovely bunch Republicans are supporting.

How do you sleep at night?
 
553Boldwin
      ID: 31251917
      Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 05:10
I know it. The roundtables, the globalists want this world war to produce the crisis and the endgame they want and they are making their puppets produce it. Honestly it's like watching people sleepwalk. The average person and this includes the average politician doesn't have a clue what's going on, what they are doing, where this will inevitably lead or why.
 
554Boldwin
      ID: 21227188
      Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 18:40
With the possible exception of Turkey, there is no historic Islamic tendency towards freedom and away from authoritarianism, whatsoever. What little experimentation such as there was ended in abject failure. The entire Arab Spring is a hoax of a meme.
 
555sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 22:31
The Muslim world, gives us an excellent preview into any theocratic governing body. Hence, we can dismiss the GOPs efforts at governing. Right B?
 
556Boldwin
      ID: 52232510
      Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 11:17
There's a report that Assad was assassinated by a bodyguard, but the sourcing looks extremely shaky. Possibly Israeli disinformation posing as arab media.

Might be for some tactical reason. Might be to counter momentum from the fact they just blew the leg off a founder of the MB proxies. My guesses.
 
557Boldwin
      ID: 3231898
      Tue, Apr 09, 2013, 09:47
Sarge

The insult to the intelligence of this forum, that you would in other posts present yourself as a spokesman for God's Kingdom. IE presenting yourself as a christian.
 
558Boldwin
      ID: 3231898
      Tue, Apr 09, 2013, 10:01
A very tragic story we have somehow missed is the rape as tool of war in Syria. Both sides are using it rampantly. It is an insidious thing in that it is often done in front of family. It carries the cultural baggage that the families feel culturally bound to honor kill the victim at worst, and at the very least, the husbands lose all interest in these victims. Not to mention that 8-20% of these rapes are of the husbands.

Another point I think that needs to be made, is that this is I believe a form of war we will be seeing more of. It is a war of three sides. A war of survival for the minority religious, a war of conquest for the sunni's and third party, the secularists and globalists.

Inevitably two gang up on one. Inevitably one party will eventually be turned on and betrayed by the party they were fighting side by side with.

It sorta happened in WWII when Russia first empowered the rise of Nazi power via the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact...before they flipped sides.

I expect WWIII will see the same ganging up and flip-flopping, making a mess of the relative strength of sides.
 
559Boldwin
      ID: 3231898
      Tue, Apr 09, 2013, 10:04
Sarge

Not to mention the insult to the intelligence of this forum, by suggesting the GOP is a theocratic body. As a party they are coming around to supporting gay marriage for crying out loud. Give them juuust a bit more time.
 
560sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Tue, Apr 09, 2013, 10:32
re 557....the God I follow, is not the same God you follow. The Bible I read, is not the same Bible you read. The words of compassion, love and caring for your fellow man, which are thick throughout my Bible, are apparently edited out of yours.

Neither of us is fit to speak FOR God. Lets allow the readers, to decide which version of God THEY choose to follow, if any.

re 559....the Bible, does not preclude same sex marriage Boldwin. Indeed, marriage, is not a religious institution It is a civil contract. Churches conduct WEDDING CEREMONIES, not marriages. The GOP, is clearly becoming thecratic in its nature. Your denial, doesnt preclude its truthfulness.
 
561Boldwin
      ID: 3231898
      Tue, Apr 09, 2013, 10:57
Matt 25 1-12
 
564Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 00:34
Godwin's Law should have a religious version. Call it the Westboro Baptist Law.
 
565Boldwin
      ID: 44344231
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 02:47
WWIII will be the first world war where one side was blind.
 
566Boldwin
      ID: 25332317
      Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 16:06
Well respected Sunni imams on Assad's side are a precious commodity to the belegured future victims of the MB.
 
567Boldwin
      ID: 25332317
      Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 16:14
Thursday.
 
568Boldwin
      ID: 14331254
      Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 09:56
Syrian refugees long for the good old days when Assad was securely in power.

Washington Post:
“I feel sorry for my country, because everything in Syria was fine,” said the man, who is living in nearby Zahle while he looks for a place to settle. He spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was worried about his safety. “Bashar was a good leader and provided security during his mandate that we will not see again.

“We used to go out at midnight, it was so safe,” added the middle-aged man, a former phone company employee. “Now, you can’t.”

Salem said that the opposition was initially “multi-communal” but that the rise of Islamist militant groups such as the al-Qaeda-affiliated Jabhat al-Nusra, labeled a terrorist organization by the United States, has allowed Assad to play on the fears [well justified fears - B] of “non-radical Sunnis and other minorities.”

Joshua Landis, director of the Center for Middle East Studies at the University of Oklahoma, said some Christians, for example, initially wanted to see reforms or a change of leadership but now “are staunch reborn supporters [of Assad] and hoping for the regime to reassert its authority.

Many refugees here said their country is being broken apart and allegiances are being formed based on religious sect. Abu Ibrahim, a Sunni man from Damascus who is resolute in his support of Assad, said those responsible for exacerbating sectarianism in his country could “go to hell.”

And while many refugees in Lebanon are divided over whom they support in the civil war raging next door, there are also those stuck somewhere in the middle.

“I’m afraid of everyone,” said Younes Ibrahim Khalaf, a Syrian refugee in his early 30s from the Seit Zaynab neighborhood of Damascus. He said shelling from the regime and the opposition contributed to the destruction of his village.

Khalaf, an uneducated man who worked at a clothes shop back home, said he was indifferent to Assad and the opposition, now and before the conflict, and wished for the simple life he once lived.

“It won’t ever be like it was before,” Khalaf said, covered in oil and dirt from his shift in the used car shop where he started working just two days before. “There is no more Syria.”
 
569bibA
      ID: 54522612
      Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 12:25
People being ruled by strong dictators who run police states may very well equate to a lack of unrest and living with a sense of calm, but it does not replace a yearning that the citizens may desire more of a say in how they are governed. Maybe a person who believed in voting rather than living under dictatorial rule would be in a better position to appreciate this.

I would agree that people in Iran may have felt more secure under the Shah - as they may have felt in Yugoslavia under Tito, Tunisia under Ghannouch, Algeria having their 19 year state of emergency, Egypt with Mubarak, Yemen under Saleh , and Libya with Gaddafi.

These people probably were safer, and many may have been more content to live under despots. However, if asked which alternative they would choose between that existence and having more of a say, like in a democracy, I would wager that most would choose the latter. Yes, things need to be worked out, and there will often be violence and conflicting factions, but there is hope that years down the line life will be better.

Some in the US may favor people in other countries live under either a strong secular dictatorship or Christian rule, but that wouldn't change these people's yearnings for a say like we have in a democracy.
 
570Boldwin
      ID: 4382910
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 15:51
So my question this week is, will the same liberals who scoffed at Bush using poison gas as a pretext for going into Iraq...

...swallow whole, globalist's new claims Assad is using sarin? And will they buy the 'red line' meme, ie Assad has passed the red line and now 'we' need to act?

Why are these claims more believable?

Is Assad really more unbearable to these liberals than Saddam Hussein?

What makes them think al-Qaeda in Syria, namely Al-Nusra would be any less likely to use poison gas, other WMD or treat Syrians in barbaric fashion?
 
571Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 16:06
Bush using poison gas as a pretext for going into Iraq

Not sure what to make of the use of 'pretext' here.


Why are these claims more believable?

I don't recall widespread doubt that Saddam gassed Iraqi Kurds.


The primary justification for the invasion of Iraq was that the phony claim that the Saddam Hussein regime posed a threat to the US at home.

Any claim that Assad's reported use of Sarin is analogous to the Iraq invasion in that way is a terrible revision of not just why Iraq was invaded and why many Americans opposed it but also current events in Syria.

 
572Seattle Zen
      ID: 3310162612
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 17:38
I, too, have noted the similarities between the drum beats before Iraq and these newest claims that maybe, just maybe Syria has used gasses on the public. This liberal is adamantly opposed to going into Syria, Assad will topple soon enough.

I need some serious forensic evidence by way of piles of gassed bodies, not rumors, before this conversation would even get off the ground.
 
573Boldwin
      ID: 4382910
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 17:40
Oh come on. In both WMD were/are being used as the deciding factor for intervention. Claims of Assad WMD use are faaaaar shakier than Saddam's. Yet I have yet to hear one lib question the validity of the 'red line'.

As long as it's Dem Gulf of Tonkin it's good enuff at the time.
 
574Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 17:54
That was pretty funny.

Yet I have yet to hear...

Haha.
 
575Boldwin
      ID: 4382910
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 18:01
Amuse me, MITH. Link me the groundswell of liberal dissent over going off to war. There really does have to be some somewhere, but it sure isn't very prominent so far. If this is gonna dissuade Obama from taking serious interventionist actions, at least up to enforced no-fly zones , I'd be amazed.
 
576Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 18:42
In order to establish hypocrisy, you have to apply analogous circumstances.

Iraq and American Iraq policy in 2003 vs Syria and American Syria policy in 2013.


Yeah, right. You may humor yourself with your own personal reality but you'd be wise to stop expecting the rest of the world to follow suit.
 
577Boldwin
      ID: 4382910
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 19:36
I understand. You are so sure this is mission impossible you won't even try.

Don't worry. The anti-war protests will prolly be mounted after the fact. But that still counts, right?
 
578Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 20:15
I will not pretend to understand the inside of your head.
 
579Boldwin
      ID: 513412920
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 21:41
Nor I, hers.

Cindy Sheehan Calls For Invasion of Syria.

Go on about your explanation of hypocrisy, MITH.
 
580Tree
      ID: 23562920
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 21:56
i'm pretty sure you using Cindy Sheehan as an example of someone who knows what they are talking about is a pretty solid explanation of hypocrisy.

i am definitely too lazy to bother searching for the threads where you bashed her, mocked her, and probably said some downright nasty things about her.
 
581Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 22:14
I honestly have no idea what his point is.

Is he holding up Sheehan as proof that Syria today is analogous to Iraq 10 years ago?

Does he think I'm a Sheehan supporter and beholden to her foreign policy opinions?

In any case, he's clearly to unhinged right now to recognize that the Daily Currant is a satire news site.

This discussion has gone from silly to confusing to embarrassing and a little frightening. It's not something I want to be part of any more.

So you win Boldy. Whatever point you think you made about my hypocrisy or stupidity or lack of scruples, you're 100% right.

How about we just let me slink away in defeat with what little pride I have left ok? Well played. Uncle.
 
582Tree
      ID: 38322228
      Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 23:27
i do like the links at the bottom, the "you might also like" links:

Supreme Court May Limit Gay Marriage to ‘Attractive Lesbians’

Fox News Calls Election for Romney

Rick Perry Forgets Who He Voted For

Sarah Palin Calls for Invasion of Czech Republic
 
583Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 01:06
Ha! Another conservative fell for a satirical website story as "proof." The gift that keeps on giving.
 
584Boldwin
      ID: 513412920
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 01:59
Whatdayaknow! She actually gets one right! [or at least a friend of hers allowed to post at her blog]
My friend Linda suggested I discuss the Syrian situation with many of her mutual friends and others that I knew. I spoke to nearly 100 Syrians. Some still living in Syria, other x-pats who have moved out of the country. What I learned was alarming but it finally all made sense. The FSA is not made up of freedom fighting Syrians and x-pats. Some of it is....and that's the 1/4 truth our media has been telling us. The larger majority of the FSA is composed of nothing more than Al-Qaeda terrorists working with the Wahhabi extremists, mercenaries and militia paid for by US taxpayers money (John Kerry gave them $60million just as we were being sequestered), by Qater, Saudi Arabia, the UK, Israel and many others. They have been trained in Jordan and Turkey (to name but a few places) by the CIA, Mossad and the MI6. I wanted more proof that this was not a "real" revolution and discovered that less than 2% of the 400,000 to 800,000 (400,000 in reserves) Syrian army has not defected. Even our media has been very frustrated by that. The 60,000 men in the police and security units remain intact. All the ministry and parliament remains intact. Many in the parliament have been offered $millions of dollars to defect. Only one has (and he was promised $10million dollars plus a mansion to do so). When he got to Jordan, he received "only" $5 million dollars! The 2 million Baath party members have remained intact. There is much more I have learned, but let this be a good starting place.
Now let's see how libs react to that news.
 
585Boldwin
      ID: 513412920
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 02:00
Sheehan's blog
 
586Tree
      ID: 38322228
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 09:02
so, fooled by a satirical website, and he doesn't even acknowledge it. instead, he links to her blog, and a post by a friend of hers.

lmao.
 
587Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 09:33
This is the problem when you fuse religion and politics. You simply cannot acknowledge error.
 
588Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 09:50
The strangeness here is much deeper than that.

The first bizarre incident is his mistaken impression that Sheehan was universally held up by the left side of this forum as some kind of hero. He's clearly forgotten the collective shrug she mostly received here and especially the rather harsh criticism from me. ass you me.

The second is the inexplicable notion that her support for an invasion (which he failed to recognize as satirical) is something that I of all people should have to answer for.

The third weird thing is that right after charging forward with the latter, he demanded exactly the opposite, that the liberals here must now answer for someone named John Mesler, because he is friend of known pacifist Cindy Sheehan and opposes the uprising and war in Syria because, he says, Assad is not ruthless but just heavy-handed and the type of strong person needed to keep things in order there.

Does anyone understand any of this?
 
589Tree
      ID: 33319309
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 10:19
Does anyone understand any of this?

the phrase "tilting at windmills" comes to mind.

imo, i'm not sure there is a phrase that fits better, at least not one that doesn't start to analyze mental illness.
 
590Boldwin
      ID: 193383016
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 17:56
Keep me out of it since you all aren't capable of rational discussion with conservatives.

Deal with the points the Cindy Sheehan blog makes.
 
591Tree
      ID: 33319309
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 18:06
Keep me out of it since you all aren't capable of rational discussion with conservatives.

if you're referring to yourself, it's not easy to have a conversation with someone who is rarely rational.

Deal with the points the Cindy Sheehan blog makes.

at least you're finally being honest. you've gone from citing a parody news article as a source of Sheehan's feelings to She actually gets one right! to acknowledging that it's just some random person posting on her blog.

your failure to address 588 - in particular the fourth paragraph - speaks volumes to how lost you are in this one too.

tilting at windmills.
 
593Boldwin
      ID: 364024
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 11:22
Pew Study
 
594Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 11:54
Interesting. Sounds very similar to what I would expect from Christians in the US, if asked similar questions.

Weird how people are much the same everywhere.
 
595Tree
      ID: 18446211
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 12:47
yea, i agree with Bili. that first paragraph could very easily read:

A new Pew Research Center survey of Christians around the globe finds that most adherents of the world’s largest religion are deeply committed to their faith and want its teachings to shape not only their personal lives but also their societies and politics.

In all but a handful of the countries surveyed, a majority of Christians say that Christianity is the one true faith leading to eternal life in heaven and that belief in God is necessary to be a moral person.

Many also think that their religious leaders should have at least some influence over political matters. And many express a desire for Christianity to be recognized as the official law of their country.


i mean, is there even a question that this would apply? in the United States, i'm pretty sure this is 100 percent accurate.
 
596boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:03
 
597Boldwin
      ID: 24433519
      Sun, May 05, 2013, 20:33
Yeah, sarin use. By the Muslim Brotherhood side.
"This was use on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities," she added, speaking in Italian.
 
598Boldwin
      ID: 24433519
      Sun, May 05, 2013, 21:00
Iran/Israel war prep accelerates.
 
599Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sun, May 05, 2013, 21:19
sarin use. By the Muslim Brotherhood side.

There is no mention of the Muslim Brotherhood in the article. It does say:

Del Ponte, a former Swiss attorney-general who also served as prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, gave no details as to when or where sarin may have been used.

Aren't you on record as a denier of ICT's claims in Yugoslavia? So you only believe them when you feel it's convenient to slander a group with absolutely no supporting evidence. You have dropped any pretense of integrity.



 
601Boldwin
      ID: 24433519
      Mon, May 06, 2013, 03:36
I'm not the one suggesting the red line to go off to war has been reached. The burden is on them certainly.
 
602Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Mon, May 06, 2013, 10:09
No, you're the one suggesting the Muslim Brotherhood is responsible for using sarin. The burden is on you to provide support for that claim.

According to your standards, one could claim:

Yeah, ricin use, by the Tea Party side.
 
603Boldwin
      ID: 56439615
      Mon, May 06, 2013, 18:59
Granted, the UN is a shaky source, but the testimony of a member of'The United Nations independent commission of inquiry on Syria is the best we've got so far. Feel free to provide better.
 
604Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Mon, May 06, 2013, 19:49
That testimony(really just a statement) simply says the opposition.

Some of the opposition consists of Christians.

There's like 40 opposition groups in Syria, and the Muslim Brotherhood is no more running the rebellion than the coalition of secular and democratic Syrians.

But truth be damned, you'll never miss an opportunity for propaganda in your march for a final solution.
 
605Boldwin
      ID: 3418620
      Mon, May 06, 2013, 22:30
Off the top of my head, Al Nusra...I believe that's their name, far and away runs the show. The other groups are as in control as they were in Egypt. In other words, they are negligible. They will be dragged thru the streets after the revolution right along with the Alawites, if Assad falls.
 
606Boldwin
      ID: 3418620
      Mon, May 06, 2013, 22:34
And let's not forget who predicted exactly what happened in Egypt, and who believed the BS about a secular revolution and a liberalization. They actually crucified people in front of the presidential palace in your brave new Egyptian world. They are committing genocide against the Copts, who survived 1900 years before your glorious revolution came along. Really called that one, didn't you?
 
607Boldwin
      ID: 3418620
      Mon, May 06, 2013, 22:49
It's all so predictable. Next it will be Jordan and Pakistan and Iraq and Indonesia and Turkey. Just like dominoes into the MB lap and there you'll be cheering every step of the way and pooh poohing the idea it isn't the grand march of inevitable human perfectibility.

Until they are at war with us. And then suddenly it won't be because liberals like you took muslims groups as weak as kittens and turned them into a world power. No no. It will then suddenly be because Boldwin wanted a world war. Which is exactly a@@backwards. I did everything I could to explain the obvious mistake you were making to help you avoid it and prevent a world war.

Who'll be the intolerant one on that day?
 
608Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Mon, May 06, 2013, 23:30
UN: No Conclusive Proof of Chemical Arms

A UN team of investigators into rights abuses in Syria has stressed there is no conclusive proof of either side in the conflict using chemical weapons, despite a team member's claims to the contrary.

Earlier, Carla del Ponte, a former war crimes prosecutor and a member of the commission, had told Swiss public broadcaster RSI that "according to the testimonies we have gathered, the rebels have used chemical weapons, making use of sarin gas".

She acknowledged there was "still not irrefutable proof, [but] very strong suspicions, concrete suspicions that sarin gas has been used... by opponents, by rebels, not by government authorities."



Curious Boldwin left out the word irrefutable, since it's one of his favorites.
 
609Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Mon, May 06, 2013, 23:50
And then suddenly it won't be because liberals like you took muslims groups as weak as kittens and turned them into a world power. No no. It will then suddenly be because Boldwin wanted a world war. Which is exactly a@@backwards. I did everything I could to explain the obvious mistake you were making to help you avoid it and prevent a world war.

What a feeble attempt to conflate your complete lack of objectivity into a full blown pity party for yourself. Your predictions are meaningless because you only see events through the eyes of Gellar, Beck, Corsi and others who fail miserably to understand the geo-political world.

So you'll excuse me if I ignore that you did everything you could to explain the obvious mistake I was making, as if either one of us means squat in the big picture. While you're at it, could you please point out the post # where I stated muslims groups as weak as kittens?

You might ask yourself why, a couple days after Israel bombed Syria, there isnt any groundswell of Muslim unity protesting the action. It isn't even on of Al Jazeera's top stories.

 
610Boldwin
      ID: 3418620
      Tue, May 07, 2013, 07:14
1) I didn't need Gellar, Beck or Corsi on this one. It was and is patently obvious. The MB is far and away the most organized and organizing force in world-wide armed jihadi practice. That they were ready and able to exploit these opportunities you and yours are handing them was and is as obvious as the sun at noon to anyone who was well read. These things should have been picked up by any intelligent person who studied the life course of OBL. What he was doing in Egypt, for example.

Putting the MB up against new formed parties after a revolution and coming out on top is child's play to them in that situation.

It is as obvious as back when anyone with a brain knew allowing the Ayatollah Khomenei to get into power was a bad bad thing.

Also a braindead liberal mistake that gets more expensive every year.

2) I didn't say you said they were weak as kittens. The muslim bloc has simply been as weak as kittens compared to the West and even the communist bloc. As long as the MB was under the thumb of strongmen they were even weaker than the weak as kittens countries they were found in.

Arab Spring, another braindead liberal idea.

3) You find it amazing that media sympathetic to the MB don't want Assad, their current enemy, getting sympathy in the muslim world as the victim of 'Israeli aggression'? Of course they don't.

While we are at it, Assad and his supporters are as rabidly anti-Israel as the MB. The only reason they find themselves under muslim crosshairs is because they now stand in the way of a single unified regional sunni califate. Before you and yours made that possible, Syria was left in peace.

While we are at it, those missiles getting moved there were an existential threat that could not be allowed if Israel were to survive a war with Iran. So was it really aggression or was it response to aggression?

 
611Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Tue, May 07, 2013, 08:46
Before you and yours made that possible, Syria was left in peace.

This form of posting is utterly despicable. Your daily attempts to lower the level of dialogue in this forum are a complete success. Congratulations.
 
612biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Tue, May 07, 2013, 09:00
Indeed. I lack understanding of his motivation. Does he think there is some imaginary crowd who is cheering on his degradation? Does he hear applause every time he takes a step or two further down into rhetorical hell?
 
613Boldwin
      ID: 3418620
      Tue, May 07, 2013, 10:07
I hear you guys cheerleading for things that will be utter disasters.

And when they do become utter disasters I see you guys walking away pretending you and your side aren't responsible.

History repeats itself. Iran. Nothing was learned from that clear lesson. You are doing it again.
 
614Tree
      ID: 1844279
      Tue, May 07, 2013, 10:42
I hear you guys cheerleading...

there is a difference between hearing and listening...you can hear whatever you want, but it doesn't mean you're actually listening.
 
615Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Tue, May 07, 2013, 11:11
The level of dysfunction is astonishing. You basically accused the Muslim Brotherhood of using sarin gas attacks in Syria, a claim with no support whatsoever. When called on it, you resort to:

I hear you guys cheerleading

it won't be because liberals like you

the obvious mistake you were making

pretending you and your side aren't responsible

you'll be cheering every step of the way

Before you and yours made that possible, Syria was left in peace


The only one pretending here is you.

who believed the BS about a secular revolution and a liberalization. They actually crucified people in front of the presidential palace in your brave new Egyptian world.

My brave new Egyptian world.

My cheerleading.

My responsibility.

WTF are you talking about? Do you have any idea just how foolish you look?





 
616Tree
      ID: 1844279
      Tue, May 07, 2013, 11:37
the last question in 615 is strictly rhetorical, right?
 
617Boldwin
      ID: 13444718
      Tue, May 07, 2013, 20:04
PV

a claim with no support whatsoever...other than the commission the UN set up to look into it. So sue me for listening to the UN.
 
618Boldwin
      ID: 13444718
      Tue, May 07, 2013, 20:07
PV

If you shared any of my concerns, you didn't mention them. I will indeed lump you in with the arab spring cheerleaders. Since no one else here saw the debacle coming.
 
619Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Wed, May 08, 2013, 09:36
If you shared any of my concerns, you didn't mention them. I will indeed lump you in with the arab spring cheerleaders.

So, you admit that if I don't share your concerns, you feel justified in distorting, exaggerating and outright lying about me.

 
620Boldwin
      ID: 32434818
      Wed, May 08, 2013, 19:42
I'm not lying about you whatsoever. I've been warning and you've been one of my most vocal resisters as I did so. In fact you've already planned your cover story when you are proven wrong. You are gonna be trumpeting the lie that I was 'eager for a world war' to cover your tracks in helping to create it.
 
621Tree
      ID: 7416812
      Wed, May 08, 2013, 20:03
wow. 620. sounds quite big brotherish.

In fact you've already planned your cover story when you are proven wrong

 
622Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Wed, May 08, 2013, 21:13
cover your tracks in helping to create it

See, maybe that isn't an intentional lie, but it's 100% divorced from reality. Your warnings have no bearing on the issue. My reactions to your hysteria have no bearings on the issue. We are not players in this political/religious/cultural conflict except as observers from far away.

We don't create, are not responsible, and have no influence on events in Syria, Egypt and surrounding countries.

It's pathetic you can't even discuss the subject without bringing these delusions of self-importance to the table.

Oh, I forgot, Clinton had the IRS audit you. OK, so you are that important, but leave me out of it.
 
623Boldwin
      ID: 36417820
      Wed, May 08, 2013, 21:37
We are still paying the price for every liberal who convinced the world it would be a great idea to force the Shah of Iran out of power.

Tomorrow Egypt will have the human rights abuses of Somolia and the Sudan with the added problem that they will be a or THE leading force in islamist jihad.

Because of idiots in the west who thot it would be a great idea to force Mubarrak out of power.

And they still haven't learned a thing.

Now it is Assad who has been keeping down the sunni crazies in Syria for years. He has to go.

Tomorrow it will be a great idea in their eyes to force Abdullah II of Jordan out of power. Send in the drones.

The day after that, why not put the crazies in Waziristan in power in Pakistan. Who are we to deny them a government in tune with their ideology? It would be cultural imperialism to suggest otherwise. Revolution is always good. Change is good.

They never learn. Plenty of them are secretly hoping it turns out badly for the West. It shows the largeness of their spirit to graciously commit political suicide for the benefit of the enemies of their country of origin. It proves their love of diversity and their lack of guilt for the sins of their empire.
 
624Tree
      ID: 38322228
      Wed, May 08, 2013, 22:26
We are still paying the price for every liberal who convinced the world it would be a great idea to force the Shah of Iran out of power.

oh, hush up you, or we'll have to remind you of Reagan illegally selling arms to Iran.

(not to mention the funds he used to train, arm, equip Islamist mujahidin fighters in Afghanistan, which, of course, eventually led to 9/11)

so before you start in with your asinine liberals did this BS, remember what YOUR HERO did, and how much blood is on HIS hands.
 
625Boldwin
      ID: 36417820
      Wed, May 08, 2013, 22:28
Wow, blaming Reagan for 9/11. There's a new one.
 
626Tree
      ID: 38322228
      Wed, May 08, 2013, 23:25
Wow, blaming Reagan for 9/11. There's a new one.

not at all. you probably missed this stuff the other times its been posted...

Reagan fought a proxy war with the Soviet Union by training, arming, equipping, and funding Islamist mujahidin fighters in Afghanistan. Reagan funneled billions of dollars, along with top-secret intelligence and sophisticated weaponry to these fighters through the Pakistani intelligence service. The Talbian and Osama Bin Laden — a prominent mujahidin commander — emerged from these mujahidin groups Reagan helped create, and U.S. policy towards Pakistan remains strained because of the intelligence services’ close relations to these fighters. In fact, Reagan’s decision to continue the proxy war after the Soviets were willing to retreat played a direct role in Bin Laden’s ascendancy.

if that is news to you, you're not paying even the slightest attention, or you're (again) ignoring facts.
 
627Boldwin
      ID: 36417820
      Thu, May 09, 2013, 00:31
I was certainly well aware of the CIA Al Qaeda links. As I've demonstrated many times over.

On the surface and at the time, it was certainly well within American best interest to prevent the Soviet Union that was on the march at the time, from hanging onto a colony.

On the surface and at the time getting the Ayatollah Khomenei to fund anti-communist efforts was well within America's best interests.

Reagan is not responsible for an Islamist run Iran. Jimmy Carter and Western liberals are.

In retrospect Afghanistan is a much more interesting case. In retrospect it looks like a better case for the phrase, 'Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know'. A lesson that should be applied to Syria.

In all of these cases you really have to ask yourself whose side the CIA is really on. In every case their efforts when seen in hindsight curiously benefit a rise of a united islamist caliphate. I chalk it up to the influence of the globalist elite who want a world war atm.
 
628Tree
      ID: 38322228
      Thu, May 09, 2013, 10:06
no, not the CIA Al Qaeda links. THE RONALD REAGAN AL QAEDA LINKS.
 
629Boldwin
      ID: 174531013
      Sat, May 11, 2013, 07:42
Syria seen as a proxy war between Shiites and Sunnis. This is a natural fault line, as both Sunni and Shiia want the endtime's caliphate that the muslim world is trying to build, to be built in their image and under their control. While both the wahabi sunnis and the shiia have tried to outdo each other in the 'kill all the jews, and other endtime muslim duties' department, the Iranian/Shiia Hezbollah has a problem. They are only 1/10 the size of the sunni bloc and their russian allies are somewhat less assertive/supportive than
the sunni's [inexplicable] western allies.
The hole was the burial place of Hujr bin Uday al-Kindi, one of the prophet Mohammad's companions, widely revered by Muslims, Shiites in particular.

The men standing on top of it are members of Jabhat al-Nusra, a Sunni Muslim extremist rebel group trying to topple the regime of President Bashar al-Assad that recently swore fealty to al Qaeda's leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

The desecration of the shrine - and the removal of the remains - drew condemnation from the highest levels of Shiite Islam. Iran's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei called it "bitter and sad," while the militant group Hezbollah in Lebanon issued a statement stark warning that it "foretells a large conflict and gloomy evil."

---

Hezbollah fighters are already fighting those rebels on a relatively small scale in Syria, the group's leader confirmed last week. Several dozen are believed to have been killed in the past several months, their bodies sent back to Lebanon for burial.

Most of the action they've seen recently has been defending the Lebanese Shiites living in over 20 border villages inside Syria, notably al-Qasr, home to Lebanese Shiites and Christians which has come under attack by fighters from Jabhat al-Nusra.

The second of Hezbollah's main missions in Syria is to defend the Sayyida Zeinab shrine near Damascus (other Shiites - Iraqis - are believed to be there as well). The ornately decorated shrine is where the granddaughter of the prophet Mohammed is buried, a highly sacred place for Shiites that normally sees pilgrims visiting year-round.

In a conflict in which the phrase "red line" has been bandied about by most of its participants, Hezbollah's leader, Shiekh Sayyed Hasan Nasrallah, last week seemed to draw one of his own, warning of "serious repercussions" if the shrine is attacked.

In a televised speech on Wednesday night, Nasrallah said Syria would still give Hezbollah "game-changing weapons it has not had before."

"In the whole of Arab history, no other Arab regime has given us as much as President Bashar al-Assad's regime has," Nasrallah said.

---

But it is the quintessential proxy war, with the Alawite (an offshoot of Shia Islam) [that is a far from accurate stretch of a definition - B] Assad regime backed up by Shia allies Hezbollah and Iran, as well as Russia and China. The Sunni rebels are supported by the Islamist rulers of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey, as well as the U.S., France, Britain and others.

In December, Syrian rebels burned down a Shiite mosque in northern Idlib province. Fighting between Hezbollah and Jabhat al-Nusra is being waged closer and closer to the Zeinab shrine. Shiite villages are coming under attack by militants who praise Osama bin Laden and Sunni villagers are being slaughtered by regime loyalists. Sectarian fighting has already leaked across the border into northern Lebanon. The stage has been set.

"When Hezbollah and Israel are both actively fighting in the same third country," writes Ramy Khoury, a professor of international affairs at the American University of Beirut, "and Iran and the United States are both actively warning about their determination to act to protect their allies and their interests in that same third country, it is time to make another pot of coffee and make sure you have plenty of fresh batteries at home for your transistor radio."
Of course you could go back to the head-in-the-sand view that this is a war between enlightened democracy loving secularists and the devil himself.

 
631Boldwin
      ID: 2446204
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 12:42
Meanwhile in Turkey
 
632Boldwin
      ID: 31427247
      Fri, May 24, 2013, 17:24
CBC News:
Syria’s opposition may fight under the banner of the Free Syrian Army, but the groups who have taken up arms against Assad and his regime often fight independently, without coordinated battle plans.

More recently, a number of extremist factions have joined Syria’s civil war, including the powerful Jabhat al-Nusra, which is aligned with al Qaeda.

“The Islamic fighters in Syria have risen in power and numbers,” said Majdalani. “This has raised a lot of fear among ordinary Syrians, who now reluctantly back the regime — which has taken advantage of this.”
---
He can count on the support of several international friends, including Iran and Russia, as well as the Shia militant group Hezbollah from Lebanon.
---
The strength of the Syrian armed forces is perhaps the key reason why the regime has not fallen. The number of soldiers defecting from the military has dropped recently, while the government has drafted new troops and recalled reserve forces to make up for losses.

“The armed forces in Syria remain united [highly significant since the army is composed of extremely diverse sectors of society including many Sunni's - B],” said Hisham Jaber, a former general in the Lebanese army who now works as a military analyst in Beirut.

“[The regime] has created a new brigade of about 3,000 soldiers. They are very well-trained, motivated and indoctrinated – like special forces – fighting in Damascus [against] the rebels.”

Neither side in Syria has been able to strike a decisive blow to end the fighting. But most analysts agree that right now Assad and his followers are in a position of power.

“If things continue as they are, the government will certainly be the party that has the major advantage,” Charles Lister of the IHS Jane’s Terrorism and Insurgency Centre in London told the Washington Post.

That puts the Syrian president in a strong position, as Russia and the United States work to bring a diplomatic solution to end the Syrian crisis.
Doesn't quite sound like the MSM version of reality, does it?

*****************
 
633Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, May 25, 2013, 09:36
Doesn't quite sound like the MSM version of reality, does it?

Since the Canadian Broadcasting Company is MSM, the question falls into the category of mindless babble.

 
634Boldwin
      ID: 1849259
      Sat, May 25, 2013, 10:23
Yeah, sometimes the truth seeps out in long-form reporting. Harder to keep up the liberal pretenses sometimes.
 
635Tree
      ID: 564211423
      Sat, May 25, 2013, 11:47
Since the Canadian Broadcasting Company is MSM, the question falls into the category of mindless babble.

as i said in another thread - i think Baldwin got it blown up - i pointed out that the irony of Baldwin quoting the Canadian NPR while mocking the American NPR is another notch in his bedpost of inconsistency.
 
636Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, May 25, 2013, 12:12
Boldwin, are you incapable of posting an informative and relevant article like #632 without interjecting nonsense like the MSM version of reality and the liberal pretenses?
Nobody, including yourself knows what you mean by MSM, and what, exactly, are liberals pretending?

Why ruin a good article with dysfunctional and irrelevant comments that stifle, instead of stimulate intelligent discussion?
 
637Boldwin
      ID: 1849259
      Sat, May 25, 2013, 15:45
The impression the media generally leaves is that Assad is hugely unpopular, his military has largely deserted him and the screen door has all but hit him on the way out the door.

This is because the power elite own the media and the power elite want him gone.

So they can put a central bank in place.

So they can put the MB in charge of the entire muslim sphere of influence.

So they have their WWIII.

So they can reduce the world population.

So they can eliminate all religions but their hidden one.
 
638Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, May 25, 2013, 23:34
The impression the media generally leaves

There is no the media. It's a cop out and a lazy way to avoid making a coherent arguement. If you want to to link to any of the hundreds of thousands of media outlets, then do so. Otherwise, you'll generally be dismissed.

This is because the power elite own the media

The power elite means nothing. It's a lazy way to avoid having to answer questions like, what, exactly, are liberals pretending?

So they

You haven't even begun determine who they are, so it's more lazy cop out BS because you don't have a cohesive and coherent arguement. So you rely on nebulous generalizations, which, in the end, while not completely meaningless, leave us to rely on your interpretations without the benefit of anything other than cosmic definitions.

You can pretend you have all the answers, while the rest of us are clueless. If that satisfies some perverted sense of superiority, then so be it. As you're so fond of saying....

you can pretend




 
639Boldwin
      ID: 7415265
      Sun, May 26, 2013, 06:15
The people at the top of the Builderbergers, the families who monopolize ownership of the central banks, Rothschilds, the people whose money Soros manages, the people who decide Europe and America should have unlimited immigration and get it despite what their people want. I'm quite specific. Multi-generational satanists all. I can give you some more key family surnames if you are interested.

There is no truth whatsoever to the charge that I have not been forthcoming on who the power elite are.
 
640Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sun, May 26, 2013, 10:30
I'm quite specific. Multi-generational satanists all.

How embarrassing. And not specific.
 
641Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sun, May 26, 2013, 12:15
Let me say that the Rothschild/Central Bank/Syria angle does have some legs. But as is often the case, there's so much wild speculation, cosmic musing and outright fantasies presented that one isn't capable of wading through the dumb down to get to any real meaty specifics.
 
642Boldwin
      ID: 534112621
      Sun, May 26, 2013, 22:20
Perhaps if you have remotely as much intellectual curiosity as I have, and pursue the matter as relentlessly as I have for the last 15 years, you too will be able to see thru the confusing counter-intuitive and past well defended subterfuges into the heart of the matter.

It is uncomfortable work because no matter what side you find more comfortable, that side is partially to blame. The truth and the zeitgeist are incompatible and to embrace the truth you must abandon the perceived safety of the popular and common belief.

 
643Boldwin
      ID: 534112621
      Sun, May 26, 2013, 23:03
Meanwhile back in England the establishment is in denial, attacking truth telling on social media, attacking crowds protesting terrorism with enormous police force. Despite repeated jihadi attacks on soldiers, they go on denying the problem, actually paying the the religious leader Anjem Choudary who incited this attack £25,000 ($37,770) per year for the multicultural contribution he makes to Britain while paying the soldier who was slaughtered £16,000 ($24,172).
 
644Boldwin
      ID: 534112621
      Sun, May 26, 2013, 23:38
Mark Steyn
 
645Boldwin
      ID: 534112621
      Sun, May 26, 2013, 23:57
Someone in the Guardian actually willing to describe the problem.
A young Iranian-American scholar reported that at a recent conference at UC Berkeley on Islamophobia, she was bullied by older US academics for daring to raise the issue of Muslim fundamentalism, along with anti-racism, and, in the same week as the Boston bombings, was told that there was no such thing as what she called "the Muslim right". We must face the reality of extremism.
 
646Boldwin
      ID: 534112621
      Mon, May 27, 2013, 00:49
Saudi king dead?

Too tired, must sleep. You verify or not.

If true, could be a precursor to a more militant jihadi course, and yes that's possible. As attacks inside SA have proven, you can get more radical than the princes in that country.
 
647Boldwin
      ID: 1953240
      Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 02:19
Arab Spring seculars behind bars [or worse]...
The Arab Network for Human Rights Information Center said in a recent report that the number of court cases and complaints involving charges of insulting the president during Morsi’s 10 months in power is four times the number filed during Mubarak’s rule of nearly 30 years.

---

deadly security crackdown on protesters in the coastal city of Port Said that left 40 people dead in February

---

more than 2,300 protesters and activists remain either detained or facing trial since January
 
648Boldwin
      ID: 32532618
      Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 22:51
Turkish media is treating this the way our MSM treats a conservative protest.



Turkey has a long history of secularism living alongside Islam. The current PM of Turkey is not of that tradition. He is an Islamist and his country's modern secularists are protesting against him.

He does not like twitter. This protest would be invisible to the public without social media.
 
649Boldwin
      ID: 365471111
      Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 03:05
15 million Egyptians sign an anti-Morsi petition, more people than voted for Morsi when he won. Extraordinarily brave of them. If I read it correctly they are indeed taking steps to show the names to the court and hide them from Morsi.

Presumably the 140,000 tear gas canisters Obama sent Morsi will be enuff to contain them.
 
650Boldwin
      ID: 50591616
      Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 17:09
Take them at their word.

 
651Boldwin
      ID: 57519186
      Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 22:37
Turkey's Islamist president racking up a casualty list: 7,822 injured, 59 serious condition. 4 lost lives,11 lost eyesight"

No complaints from Obama.
 
652Boldwin
      ID: 195432220
      Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 21:43
Nothing like a sunni/shiite religious war prelude to a world war.
“waves of Egyptians” are pouring into Syria to join the fight against the Assad regime and its allies, Hezbollah and Iran. The Egyptians in question are “fired by the virulently sectarian rhetoric of Sunni preachers” who are “call[ing] for jihad.” In other words, the Egyptians pouring into Syria are Islamic jihadists.
 
653Boldwin
      ID: 195432220
      Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 22:13
Would someone please remind the president of the War Powers Act?
we have no vital interests in the outcome of Syria’s civil war. Both sides are our enemies. Assad has neither attacked nor threatened to attack the United States. Consequently, waging war against the Syrian regime is wholly a matter of choice. That is a choice that, in our constitutional system, cries out for congressional authorization. Without congressional authorization – without a demonstration that the American people’s representatives are satisfied that American interests call for waging an unprovoked war against the Assad regime – there should be no American intervention.

Thanks to Republican Senators Rand Paul (of Kentucky) and Mike Lee (of Utah), we might finally get on Syria what we were denied on Libya: a real debate among the American people’s representatives over congressional authorization of President Obama’s unilateral war-making in the Middle East.

The Washington Examiner reports that Senators Paul and Lee have joined with two counterparts, Democrats Chris Murphy (of Connecticut) and Tom Udall (of New Mexico), in offering legislation that would block direct or indirect aid for military or paramilitary operations in Syria. The bill, which is posted on Paul’s website, is called the “Protecting Americans from the Proliferation of Weapons to Terrorists Act of 2013.”

The proposal would not affect or prohibit humanitarian aid, but it forthrightly addresses the issue Syria intervention supporters willfully ignore: the factions President Obama is abetting – egged on by the GOP’s McCain wing and their fellow transnational progressives on the Democratic side of the aisle – are Islamic supremacists dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood and closely connected to violent jihadists, including al Qaeda-affiliated groups.

As John Rosenthal acutely observes in his short but essential book The Jihadist Plot: The Untold Story of Al-Qaeda and the Libyan Rebellion, while there are many problems with using the label “war on terror” to describe our ongoing hostilities, “at least the term had the advantage of making clear that the US and its allies abhorred the tactic in question.” Yet, in Libya, and now in Syria, we have turned a blind eye to the fact that terrorism is used by the jihadists our government has chosen to side with. We try to obscure this fact by referring to the opposition forces as “rebels,” the better to avoid noticing that they consider themselves mujahideen (jihad warriors), and by pretending we favor only the “secular” “moderates,” though it is laughable to suggest there are enough of them to topple the regimes in question without allying with the more numerous and formidable Islamic-supremacists factions.

This is a disgraceful state of affairs. For many years after their enactment in 1996, the material-support-to-terrorism laws, which prohibit and severely punish any abetting of terrorist organizations and their savage methods, were foundational to American counterterrorism. They have been a staple of anti-terrorism prosecutions and of the policy shift designed to prevent terrorist attacks from happening (by starving jihadist cells of resources) rather than content ourselves to prosecute only after suffering attacks. At least as importantly, material support statutes also proclaimed our moral position: any organization that resorted to terrorism is the enemy of humanity, regardless of its cause and regardless of what humanitarian activities the organization purports to carry out. Now, no matter how much government officials deny it, our government is endorsing what we went to war to defeat. Our government is materially supporting terroriststhe very conduct it prosecutes and imprisons American citizens for committing.
 
654Boldwin
      ID: 315483017
      Sun, Jun 30, 2013, 21:03

Egyptian anti-Morsi protests...carrying 'Obama Supports Terrorism' signs btw.



As he well and truly does.
 
655Boldwin
      ID: 315483017
      Sun, Jun 30, 2013, 21:15


The demonstrators maintain Morsi has become a power-hungry autocrat who is intent on making the Muslim Brotherhood Egypt’s permanent ruling party.

They also blame the Obama administration and U.S. Ambassador to Egypt Anne Patterson for propping up Morsi and facilitating the Muslim Brotherhood’s power grab.

“We are very critical of the Obama administration because they have been supporting the Brotherhood like no one has ever supported them,” Shadi Al Ghazali Harb, a 24-year-old member of Egypt’s Revolutionary Youth Coalition, told the Washington Free Beacon on Friday afternoon during a telephone interview from Cairo.

The White House is “the main supporter of the Brotherhood,” he said. “If it wasn’t for the American support this president would have fallen months ago.”

Al Ghazali Harb specifically dubbed Patterson “the first enemy of the revolution,” claiming “she is hated even more than Morsi.”

---

Fouad predicted that if Morsi’s Muslim Brotherhood survives these protests they will likely “survive anything.”

USA ambassador Paterson:

 
656Boldwin
      ID: 315483017
      Sun, Jun 30, 2013, 21:18
 
657Boldwin
      ID: 315483017
      Sun, Jun 30, 2013, 21:19
In every Egyptian city btw, not just Cairo.
 
658Boldwin
      ID: 29621113
      Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 16:25
USA's ambassador actively discouraging the anti-Morsi protesters...
The June 18 edition of Sadi al-Balad reports that lawyer Ramses Naggar, the Coptic Church's legal counsel, said that during Patterson's June 17 meeting with Pope Tawadros, she "asked him to urge the Copts not to participate" in the demonstrations against Morsi and the Brotherhood.

---

Indeed, the U.S. ambassador's position as the Brotherhood's lackey is disturbing—and revealing—on several levels. First, all throughout the Middle East, the U.S. has been supporting anyone and everyone opposing their leaders—in Libya against Gaddafi, in Egypt itself against 30-year U.S. ally Mubarak, and now in Syria against Assad. In all these cases, the U.S. has presented its support in the name of the human rights and freedoms of the people against dictatorial leaders.

So why is the Obama administration now asking Christians not to oppose their rulers—in this case, Islamists—who have daily proven themselves corrupt and worse, to the point that millions of Egyptians, most of them Muslims, are trying to oust them?

---

Among other things, under Morsi's rule, the persecution of Copts has practically been legalized, as unprecedented numbers of Christians—men, women, and children—have been arrested, often receiving more than double the maximum prison sentence, under the accusation that they "blasphemed" Islam and/or its prophet. It was also under Morsi's reign that another unprecedented scandal occurred: the St. Mark Cathedral—holiest site of Coptic Christianity and headquarters to Pope Tawadros himself—was besieged in broad daylight by Islamic rioters. When security came, they too joined in the attack on the cathedral. And the targeting of Christian children—for abduction, ransom, rape, and/or forced conversion—has also reached unprecedented levels under Morsi. (For more on the plight of the Copts under Morsi's rule, see my new book Crucified Again: Exposing Islam's New War on Christians.)

Yet despite the fact that if anyone in Egypt has a legitimate human rights concern against the current Egyptian government, it most certainly is the Christian Copts, here is the U.S., in the person of Ms. Patterson, asking them not to join the planned protests.

In other words, and consistent with Obama administration doctrine, when Islamists—including rapists and cannibals—wage jihad on secular leaders, the U.S. supports them; when Christians protest Islamist rulers who are making their lives a living hell, the administration asks them to "know their place" and behave like dhimmis, Islam's appellation for non-Muslim "infidels" who must live as third class "citizens" and never complain about their inferior status. - by Raymond Ibrahim
FrontPageMagazine.com
Read the whole thing
 
659Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 18:53
Read the whole thing

I stopped at

the U.S. ambassador's position as the Brotherhood's lackey


 
660Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 19:33
CAIRO—Thousands of protesters erupted into cheers after Egypt's military leaders warned that they would intervene if the president failed to resolve a political crisis within 48 hours, raising the prospect of a military coup a day after millions of Egyptians thronged the country's streets demanding the president's resignation.

A person close to President Mohammed Morsi said by text message that the presidency considers the military's announcement tantamount to a military coup and that the military wouldn't have announced the ultimatum without the blessing of the Obama administration.
link

Posted for those interested in sources with a hint of journalistic integrity.
 
661Perm Dude
      ID: 24625213
      Tue, Jul 02, 2013, 14:25
It is just sad that the Right of this country now supports the military coup of a democratically elected government in Egypt, simply because they hope it will hurt our Democratic President here in the US.
 
662Pancho Villa
      ID: 40610217
      Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 15:43
Morsi and the Brotherhood out in Egypt

So much for the Muslim Brotherhood spearheading a worldwide caliphate. They can't even hold on to power in Egypt.
 
663Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 16:21
Usually the fear peddlers pick outcomes that take much longer to demonstrate to their sheep how full of chicken poop they are. I'm sure Baldwin will lament being duped and promise to start thinking for himself immediately.
 
664Perm Dude
      ID: 24625213
      Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 17:03
Somehow Obama is (still) to blame for this. I suspect the Tea Party will pivot and say "Obama didn't support a democratically-elected government, despite all his teleprompter work!!"
 
665Boldwin
      ID: 463545
      Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 07:10
Hey, sometimes Reagan wins, too.

I've seen enuff not to expect rainbows and pots of gold this side of God's Kingdom.

They've escaped the MB for a day now and counting. The Egyptian army and 2 million people willing to risk their life in the street protesting people who crucify their enemies have delivered themselves a sliver of hope. If they can hang on to it.
 
666sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 09:23
Yes B, Egypt has done away with the most moderate govt it has seen in 40+ years and now the extremists are back in charge, and now you are applauding. Nice.
 
667Perm Dude
      ID: 24625213
      Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 13:13
Don't you know, sarge: Any democratically-elected government which supports Barack Obama deserves to be overthrown by its military.
 
668sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 13:50
*head slap* d'oh of course! WTF was I thinking? *head desk*
 
669Boldwin
      ID: 42637423
      Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 00:37
We have a new contender for 'Most A@@backwards Post Ever'.

Sarge#666

Well he even picked his favorite number. Destiny.
 
670Boldwin
      ID: 436053
      Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 04:01
Seriously Sarge, Morsi's thugs sexually assault protestors in front of the presidential palace when they aren't crucifying them, and then they go off and burn down a church during services or kidnap christian children and you think these guys are more moderate than during the Mubarak regime?

You have one hella evil agenda there.
 
671Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 08:26
While I won't succumb to Boldy's hyperbole (yes I'm aware of rampant sexual assaults but I refuse to oversimplify a chaotic mess by attributing them personally to Morsi) from my perspective this week's uprising was just as valid as the one that eventually ousted Mubarak.

Morsi did not appear to be any friend of democracy or committed to peace in the region. From what I saw he came in and in a few months inserted himself as dictator, literally usurped the drafting of Egypt's new constitution (not in the tea party mouth breather "Obama tramples the constitution" sense but as in he stepped well outside his authority to oust sitting judges and replace them with others who are willing to further his constitutional agenda).

After walking back some of those decrees, two weeks ago he inserted Egypt into the Syrian conflict.

This isn't what a majority of Egyptians seems to have voted for. Now, back when Mubarak was kicked out we knew there were any number of ways this could go and that a storybook ending where Egyptians skip happily off into the centuries in blissful democracy and peace was not among the more likely outcomes. But Morsi turned out much worse than I'd hoped and I'm not so sure at all that I'd call him any more generally "moderate" than Mubarak.

I don't see why I shouldn't be happy to see them assert for themselves (with the help of the military) another crack at democracy, hopefully one in which many voters will rethink the priorities applied in their previous ballots.
 
672sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 09:01
No, nor did I call Morsi a moderate. I said it was the most moderate Egypt had seen in 4+ decades, and that is absolutely true. He wasnt moderate per se, but he was a step in the right direction.
 
673Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 09:38
Sarge

Really depends on your definition of moderate, doesn't it? I dont think I said you called Morsi a moderate, I was challenging your notion that he is necessarily more moderate than the Mubarak regime was.

Sure, Morsi's version of democracy (presumably where the people get to choose between candidates selected by Morsi's wing of the MB) is slightly more democratic than Mubarak's (where the people get to choose Mubarak) but the Mubarak regime did seem genuinely committed to peace in the region (even if it wast due to western influence) and riding the fence between secular and Islamist influences.

I'm also at a loss for why you regard the military as "extremists".
 
674sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 10:06
I guess it depends on how much faith you put into what is being said BY the Egyptian military. They have since the 80s, seen their political influence greatly decline, and it was not to their collective liking. Anytime I see a military coup, I have nagging doubts over it. Was Morsi a "godsend"? Hell no. Was he even "better" than Mubarak? I dont know, and I'm not sure we had time enough to be able to honestly gauge. I find it extreme, anytime the actual winner of an election, is deposed. (Assuming of course, the ballot had more than one name on it and the election was relatively fair and open.)
 
675Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 10:29
Maybe Im remembering it wrong but wasn't Mubarak's ouster accomplished through military coup? One which saw the military cede power to a transitional government?
 
676sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 10:37
Or am I misremembering? I will admit, I didnt "refresh" my memories via research before posting.
 
677Pancho Villa
      ID: 40610217
      Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 10:42
A lot of it boils down to economics. Morsi needed to put the ideology aside and concentrate on retaining the foreign investment that Egypt relies upon for a relatively stable society.

The MB showed it didn't have the goods when it came to actually governing, which led to widespread dissatisfaction even among those who supported and voted for them a year ago.
 
678Seattle Zen
      ID: 3603123
      Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 11:11
“This is how it is with a revolution,” said Rania Azab, a news media adviser for Mr. ElBaradei, 71, who insisted late Saturday that he had been chosen to form an interim cabinet. “You have to bear with us.”

Cracks Emerge as Egyptians Seek Premier

In general, I do not support military coups of democratically elected official governments, but... let's not forget that Egypt's government is brand new, it's constitution is a work in progress and, most importantly, Morsi's group of clowns ignored the judiciary and the rule of law. Simply because the majority of the slackjawed country folk voted for the MB does not give them license to toss aside provisions in the constitution that they don't care for. It became obvious to all that the MB were in WAY over their heads when it came to actual governance, as PV pointed out. We can all hope that the next government respects minority rights.
 
679Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 21:23
Just a reminder which of us always gets it right and which of us are stary-eyed naive dreamers.
 
680Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 22:10
Just a reminder which of us always gets it right and which of us are stary-eyed naive dreamers.
Well, I don't always get it right, but thanks anyway. Had it right in #549.


From Boldwin #499
All Morsi needs to do is keep firing military commanders until he gets down to the ones loyal to the MB.

PV - It's more likely that it's just a matter of time before the military decides to take matters into its own hands and replace Morsi altogether.



 
681Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 22:13
It was a very close call and this situation is not safe and secure. Any American friendly government in today's middle east is walking a tightrope.

BTW what a shame the president of Egypt is more sane and pro-American than the USA president.
 
682Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 22:26
Well, Mr Always right except when you're not, I gladly leave this thread with your embarrassing admission of obsessive hatred for your president, who made the following sane, pro-American statement today.

"The president explained that these and other steps will help refine our military assistance relationship so that it is better positioned to address the shared challenges to US and Egyptian interests in an unstable region, consistent with the longstanding strategic partnership between our two countries," the White House said in a statement detailing the call between the two leaders.
 
683Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 22:45
...Said the president who immediately discontinued military aid to Egypt in a fit of pique when his Islamist MB were deposed by the pro-American Egyptian military.
 
684Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 23:10
Incorrect.. In October 2013, the Obama Administration said it would halt the delivery of some large military systems to the Egyptian government until it saw advances towards democracy.

Hey, wrong again.
 
685Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 03:32
Oh, but they thot the MB had been democratic enuff?

My point.
 
686Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 05:55


Americans would do well to recall
the sequence of events that led to Japan’s attack on the United States at Pearl Harbor and America’s entry into the Second World War. In 1941, the United States imposed a near-total embargo on oil shipments to Japan to punish its aggression on the Asian mainland. Unfortunately, Washington drastically underestimated how Japan would respond.
~~~
COULD A U.S. response to Russia’s actions in Ukraine provoke a confrontation that leads to a U.S.-Russian war? Such a possibility seems almost inconceivable. But when judging something to be “inconceivable,” we should always remind ourselves that this is a statement not about what is possible in the world, but about what we can imagine.

 
687Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 21:08
Best revelation of ISIS structure ever.
 
688Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 07:28
Irresponsible world leaders, policy makers, war planners, think tankers, 'intelligence services' of all sides, etc have been playing an out of control dangerous kind of 3D chess beyond the ken of the public/average voters. Meet 4G and 5G warfare.
The U.S., British, Canadian and other Western military training of Ukrainian forces that include neo-Nazi gangsters from Ukraine and other parts of Europe and the NATO/CIA training support in Turkey and Jordan being provided to Islamist jihadis tied to the Islamic State, Al Nusra Front, and Al Qaeda represents the application of 4th generation warfare (4GW) and 5th generation warfare (5GW) tactics from the Pentagon’s and Central Intelligence Agency’s think tanks to the battlefield.

The use of 4GW/5GW primarily involves the use of what are known as “violent non-state actors” (VNSAs). In the case of Ukraine, these VNSAs have become, with the integration of neo-Nazi battalions into the regular Ukrainian army, “violent state-supported actors”, or VSSAs.

The concept of 4GW was first drawn up by a gang of Pentagon war college types in the late 1980s to describe a post-Cold War threat of insurgents like VNSAs in failed states. After honing the war concept of 4GW, the world now faces groups like ISIL and its various spin-offs which have nested in failed states like Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya — all thanks to U.S. military and intelligence intervention by Republican and Democratic U.S. administrations — and threaten regional and global stability.

The appointment of neo-Nazi Ukrainian militia leader Dmytro Yarosh to be an advisor to Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces Viktor Muzhenko and the integration of neo-Nazi militia gangsters into the Ukrainian army is a clear-cut example of VNSAs being transformed into VSSAs. This also represents a move by the CIA and NATO from 4GW to the much more dangerous 5GW, in which criminal syndicates, computer hackers, and state-supported terrorists play significant roles. Yarosh played a significant part in the “Euromaidan” uprising, which overthrew the elected Ukrainian government in a coup d’état in early 2014.
We've gone from a time recently when we simply thot that controlling terrorism would be as simple as forcing states to declare opposition to terrorism or be declared the enemy...[ie giving 'non-state' actors aka terrorists no place to hide]...

...till now barely a decade later using numerous non-state quasi-terrorist actors as if they were chess pieces we could manipulate for our own advantage.

This is just out of control. Dangerous. Unstable. As if it weren't already trouble enuff that there is now a largely unopposed defacto-state in ISIS openly stating it's goal of conquering the world...

...our own planners [among others] are pursuing dangerous strategies that invite WWIII provoking incidents and terrorist warfare around the world.

If we sabotaged the economies of the West till they all looked like vulnerable houses of cards ready to fall, shook the cages of Russia and China till they responded unpredictably, begged Islam to rise up...we couldn't have done it better than we have been doing.


 
689Boldwin
      ID: 485770
      Sun, Jun 07, 2015, 10:11
Everything you need to know about CAIR.
CAIR files lawsuit to prevent ICE from asking Muslims entering US about jihad-related activities, relatives.
Tell me again how I'm an Islamophobe and CAIR is just an innocent and noble civil rights group.
 
690Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Fri, Jun 19, 2015, 12:49
Pretty much the definition of religious profiling. The problem is that people like Boldwin believe that is OK for people they don't like, and a massive infringement of rights for those they do like.
 
691Boldwin
      ID: 49572022
      Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 23:07
Actually I think it's perfectly fine if the government asks EVERYONE entering the country if they have any knowledge of anyone planning violent activities.

Protecting our lives is just about the only useful role the government has. Why shouldn't they take an interest? It's not like we have a privacy right to terrorism.
 
692Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 11:51
That, of course, is not what they are doing.
 
693Boldwin
      ID: 49572022
      Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 12:05
I'm also A-OK with them asking a few more Somali's that question as opposed to 90YO Swedish grandmothers.
 
694Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 13:13
If they were the same questions, sure. But the questions themselves are important, too.
 
695Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 15:25
In statistics, there is a concept of Type I and Type II errors. Type I is a basically a false alarm, and Type II is a failed detection. There is always a trade off when deciding where to set the threshold for detection.

Given the consequences of Type II errors over the consequences of Type I errors, what threshold for scrutiny of suspects would you suggest PD?
 
696biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 17:05
TSA's poor record (sensitivity - or true positive rate) makes me think that even if they jailed and tortured every Somali (Massively jacking their rate of false positive), they would barely move the needle on their sensitivity.

So incredible levels of rights-infringement resulting in little result on the safety front (little improvement in sensitivity).

But it would have the result of the US being hardly discernible from our most demonized enemies.

If I have some time to waste, I'll post on ROC curve reflecting what I think the relationship is.
 
697Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 17:28
I look forward to the statistical analysis of TSA screening. Be careful not to fall into the same trap as GM engineers putting a price on human life as you apply the mathematics.

NO WIN
 
698biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 23:08
It's a balance between potential lives lost and real, quantifiable freedoms, and if we go too far, our very way of life.

There's a quote out there somewhere about freedom and lives worth living, but I can't remember it.

Don't hold your breath on the TSA stat analysis. They appear neither to publish their minimal successes nor their substantial failures in any quantifiable form.