Forum: pol
Page 3514
Subject: Allen West For President


  Posted by: Boldwin - [191531310] Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 12:15

If Republicans want to win in 2012, here is their candidate. Anything less will not do. And that comes from someone who just loves Newt.







 
1DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 12:32
At work, can't watch the viedos (no sound). However, I'd wager a large sum that both Adam West and Kanye West have as good a chance at a nomination as he does.
 
2Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 14:24
isn't he the guy who was forced to retire after two decades in the military for firing his gun at the head of a detainee during an "interrogation"?

and isn't he the guy who has publicly supported convicted war criminals, including one who cut off his victim's clothes with a knife, then shot him point blank and killed him, during an "interrogation"?

yea, that's him.

other than supporting cold-blooded killers, what are his stances on the issues? gun rights? abortion rights? gay rights? religious freedom?

and so on. do YOU know, Baldwin?
 
3Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 15:56
The wackier they are, the more I'll support them.

As we saw during the last administration, nothing is so toxic to the GOP than giving them what they ask for.
 
4Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 15:59
Tree

He's on the strict construction constitutional side of those issues.
 
5Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 16:01
It really depends on whether the puppetmasters are willing to finance his run, but that man has the goods to be as great as Reagan.
 
6Boldwin
      ID: 191531310
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 16:06
Let me amend that. He's got the goods right now to be as good as Reagan whereas Palin only has the potential given another 20 years of maturation.

If these developments in muslim countries turn out half as bad as I expect the public won't be considering being tuff on terrorists as a bad thing.
 
7Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 17:19
He's on the strict construction constitutional side of those issues.

and what is that, by your definition on gun rights? abortion rights? gay rights? religious freedom?

He's got the goods right now to be as good as Reagan

you said the same thing about Palin two years ago, and this statement is as silly as that one was. you simply have no way to know...

 
8Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 19:40
No, I certainly never said she had done the framework building to be up to Reagan speed this early in her life. I said she had the right instincts to grow into those shoes.

Allen West is the full blown, ready to rock, real deal, baby. No one on the Republican side has had chops that could match his since Reagan.
 
9Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 19:59
and what "chops" does someone who has served exactly 42 days as an elected official possess?
 
10Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 22:22
The same communication chops Reagan had when he was a spokesman for GE and had never served a day in office. Combined with the surefooted philosophical foundation of the mature Reagan who had worked it all out.
 
11Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Mon, Feb 14, 2011, 22:47
Reagan's CPAC speech early in his presidency. In case you want to compare it to West's speech.
 
12Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 01:12
The same communication chops Reagan had when he was a spokesman for GE and had never served a day in office.

Ronald Reagan spent eight years as governor of California before running for the presidency, and wasn't elected until his second attempt to win.

West has a long ways to go before putting in that sort of service time. he's been in office for six weeks.

i'm presuming you have no problem with his support of torture, and killers?
 
13Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 02:05
Don't have a problem with the 'firing a shot' incident and don't know about the other thing you say he supports.
 
14Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 02:08
Sounds like more research is called for before such a full-throated call for support as the next Reagan...
 
15Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 02:11
West has a long ways to go before putting in that sort of service time. he's been in office for six weeks.

That's not the issue. He's ready now. Put him in the oval office immediately.

I'll take his service in congress already over Obama's minimal absentee run in the legislature and his vote to murder babies already 100% delivered from the womb. That one vote put Barry outside the pale of civilization as far as I am concerned.
 
16Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 02:13
If you don't know what he stands for, how in the world can you support him?

It isn't about whether he's "ready" (whatever that means). It is about whether you've done due diligence enough to support the guy.

 
17Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 02:14
Sounds like more research is called for before such a full-throated call for support as the next Reagan...

The hell you say. He's beside himself angry at liberals who can't wait to judge volunteer soldiers against terrorism guilty and who won't stop until they find some angle to let the terrorists go free.

Put him in the oval office yesterday.
 
18Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 02:20
Boy, you're really selling the guy. Keep it up. Let's bring on the next GWB, since the last one worked so well. What we need is an angry GWB. Too bad Dick Cheney wasn't running, eh?

Hell, if I think it would make a difference, I'd send in $100 if I thought he would be the GOP nominee as a result.

 
19Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 02:21
Not a neocon bone in his body.
 
20Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 07:18
He's just the latest "Reagan in a skirt". I can't think of a better way to cheapen the legacy of something should be so rare as your most esteemed modern political hero than to annoint each successive flavor of the month as his equal but that's me.
 
21Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 08:14
don't know about the other thing you say he supports.

of course not. you haven't even stated his stance on the various issues, because you don't even know that.

as for the other incident, it can be found with some basic research, but West's support for Michael Behenna, a former soldier who cut off a detainee's clothes with a knife, and then shot him point blank.

then he put a live grenade under the corpses head and burned the body, in an effort to id the body's identity and make it look like something other than murder.

fortunately there were witnesses, and Behenna is serving prison time now, instead of "serving" his country.

and West has supported him. and you support West. even while you have no idea what at all West stands for.

kudos.



 
22Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 08:42
West's support for Behenna puts him outside the pale of civilization as far as I'm concerned.
 
23walk
      ID: 348442710
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 09:08
Boldwin, you do seem gung ho about this individual. What leadership qualities (e.g. charisma, specific knowledge, ability to get things done, problem solver, uniter, strategic vision, etc.) do you find most appealing about West that make him a great candidate in your eyes? What have you either seen him do, or know he has done based on his experience, resume, etc. that has impressed you the most?

Also, this is the congressman who looks after my mom's home in Fort Lauderdale. Funny that someone of his background has the Seinfeld-parents belt.
 
24walk
      ID: 348442710
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 09:11
And by that last sentence, I mean his background in the military, and the fact that he is a republican. Broward county is sorta split between being very conservative yet very democrat. I cannot figure it out. I see he attends church in the same town where my mom lives. I have been to Tamarac many times.
 
25biliruben
      ID: 171361013
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 09:20
He already stated the quality he cares about, walk.

He's very angry at liberals. No other qualities necessary.
 
26walk
      ID: 348442710
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 09:31
My poor mom!
 
27biliruben
      ID: 171361013
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 09:33
You crack me up!
 
28Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 10:28
I expect the public won't be considering being tuff on terrorists as a bad thing.

No suprise that Boldwin basically parrots this WND headline:

Appeal Launched for Soldier Who Killed Terrorist

On May 5, 2008, "known terrorist Ali Mansur" was detained on suspicion of being involved, but 11 days later, Army Intelligence officers ordered his release. They ordered Behenna to escort Mansur home.

Known terrorist is parenthesized, yet there is no attribution to this quote. That's because there was no evidence to support the terrorist claim, which is why Ali Mansur was ordered released. As we've come to expect from WND, the headline and the accompanying quote have absolutely no journalistic integrity.

The problem with Alan West's support for Behenna is fundamental. Behenna's lack of discipline, his blatant refusal to obey orders, have no place in the military, especially when the military is in a foreign country with a very fragile psyche as it attempts to establish a workable society.

Whether or not the sentence Behenna received is too harsh is irrelevant. We simply can't have our soldiers murdering citizens in occupied countries. If Allen West can't comprehend this fundamental principle, he's certainly not prepared to be Commander in Chief.



 
29Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 13:06
but he hates liberulz!
 
30Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 15:07
What leadership qualities (e.g. charisma, specific knowledge, ability to get things done, problem solver, uniter, strategic vision, etc. - WALK

1) The ability to inspire and uplift a crowd.

2) The ability to build up what Obama has torn down.
 
31Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 15:09
So, the same things that you denigrate in Obama you praise in a guy you proudly know nothing much about?

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you today's GOP.
 
32Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 15:19
I don't denigrate Obama for his speaking ability. I denigrate him for inspiring marxists and empowering America's enemies and working against America's interests.
 
33Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 15:48
you also don't deny not knowing a damned thing about West's policies or background.
 
34walk
      ID: 348442710
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 16:41
Thank you. What specifically would West build up (that Obama has allegedly torn down)? From post #32, I am left to infer that he would build up the opposite of:

-- Empowering America's enemies (tougher foreign policy?),

-- Inspiring the opposite of marxism (fascism?),

And that West would stand for America's interests. Now, I don't think Obama is working against America's interests. I think you may be dissatisfied with how Obama is trying to build up America, but I don't think it's reasonable to say that Obama is somehow actively trying to achieve an outcome that is not in the best interests of our country. Means vs. ends.

I don't believe Cheney/Bush were actively trying to undermine American interests (although some would beg to differ; read Shock Doctrine), but I did not agree with their means to enhance American interests (waging unbudgeted wars that got a lot of non-Americans really mad at America; increased intra-national surveillance; politicized US attorneys; turned a surplus into a huge deficit).

What interests do you think West is going to build? If you agree that it's an issue how how West would go about achieving America's interests (means vs. ends), what would he do? What will he do to my mom? I cannot find it on his web-site.
 
36Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 16:57
(missing #35 was mine. Didn't italicize right.)

I cannot find it on his web-site.

You won't find any answers from Boldy either. He's created a thread and posted numerous times about Mr. West and has yet to tell us exactly what policies this guy would support. Although in his defense, he has no idea what Mr West would do.
 
37Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 17:22
Shut up, Tree. I've listened to his major speeches.

Walk

Empowering America's enemies: Building up Chavez. Scraping and bowing to enemies who are inclined to take advantage of weakness. Creating islamist countries. Vilifying America's past.

Inspiring the opposite of marxism: Preventing the rise of all powerful government and slavery to it. Inspiring individual initiative and responsibility. Reassuring investors that they won't have their risks raised by government and their rewards confiscated. Cutting thru government obstacles and red tape. Eliminating petty unaccountable dictators in innumerable government agencies who can arbitrarily micromanage and destroy the best of plans.
 
38Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 17:25
I don't believe Cheney/Bush were actively trying to undermine American interests - Walk

All globalists are in the business of destroying American sovereignty to the benefit of global government.
 
39sarge33rd
      ID: 201211422
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 17:33
from post 17: He's beside himself angry at liberals...

That right there, is why AND all the reason B needs; to support him.
 
40Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 18:19
Empowering America's enemies: Building up Chavez. - Bullshit

Scraping and bowing to enemies who are inclined to take advantage of weakness - Bullshit

Creating islamist countries - extreme Bullshit

Vilifying America's past. - Bullshit

This type of propoganda leaves no room for intelligent discussion.





 
41Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 18:24
Notice here, Allen West and a panel of intelligent republicans, but look in the complete superiority and grasp West has of this question, this situation and this audience. Head, shoulders, knees and ankles above them.



Sarah, I love you baby, you've got more backbone than 90% of congress but there is no contest. Allen West is the man.
 
42Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 18:34
Shut up, Tree. I've listened to his major speeches.

awww, has wittle baldwin been made to look silly willy by someone who he constantly insults and belittles?

if you can't stand the heat, get. out. of. the. kitchen.

but since you've listened to his major speeches, i'll grant you the benefit of the doubt for hte moment.

please feel free to ply us with information.

Where does Allen West stand on the issues as mentioned in posts 7 and 34 or any of the other posts in this thread?

and how do you feel about his support for a cold-blooded killer. are you ok with that? is your god ok with that?

i challenge you to provide us with West's stances on the issues.

I challenge you to explain why you do (or do not) support West in *his* support of Michael Behenna.

personally, i don't believe you can meet these challenges, simply because you don't have the answers.

but here's your golden opportunity. prove. me. wrong.
 
43Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 18:39
Here are West's men describing West's conduct in Iraq.

 
44Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 18:41
Tree

Find an actual Poliboard poster to make any requests you may have.
 
45Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 18:56
# On February 26th 1LT Behenna tells the jury that while he was interrogating Mansur he turned back to his interpreter and when he did so Mansur lunged for his gun. The 1LT moved to the left and fired a control pair of shots. This explanation was identical to what prosecution expert witness Dr. MacDonnell had told the prosecution team the night before.
# During a recess after 1LT Behenna’s testimony Dr. MacDonnell meets with the prosecution team (Megan Poirier, Jason Elbert, and Erwin Roberts) in their meeting room and tells them that what Michael had just testified to was exactly what he had demonstrated to them the day before and that Michael Behenna ‘must be telling the truth’. He told them that in the interest of justice they should put him on the stand. They looked at him coldly and said they no longer needed his services and were flying him home that night. On his way out of the courtroom he tells Jack Zimmerman, defense counsel, that he would have made a great witness for 1LT Behenna. Zimmerman asks him why and Dr. MacDonnell says he can’t say because he was still an expert witness for the government, but to ask the prosecutors.
# The first thing the next morning Zimmermann asks prosecutors if they have any exculpatory evidence that should be provided to the defense as a result of Dr. MacDonnell’s comment. Prosecutors deny having any such evidence despite having been told by their own expert witness that Lt Behenna’s explanation was the only logical explanation.
Take a jump if you still think Behenna is guilty.

Put the prosecution team in prison.
 
46Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 19:05
Source: Behenna's lawyer
 
47Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 19:06
BTW the UN has indicted the USA for not allowing the prosecution of Prosecutors who illegally hide exculpatory evidence.
 
48Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 19:16
Some situations call for rendition. I wonder if Eric Holder was on that prosecution team.
 
49Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 19:33
On February 26th 1LT Behenna tells the jury that while he was interrogating Mansur

Uh, I covered all that in #28. It hardly exonerates him, even if the prosecution didn't share exculpatory evidence. At best, it could have lowered the charges to manslaughter or something similar.

He disobeyed orders. His orders were to return Mansur to his residence, not interrogate him. Not separate him from the group. Not shoot an unarmed Iraqi citizen.

Are you so invested in propoganda that it's impossible to see the entire story?

 
50Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 19:50
Quite Ironic:

Mother Vicki Behenna an Assistant United States Attorney who helped prosecute Oklahoma City Bomber Timothy McVeigh, and father Scott Behenna a former investigator with the Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation and current intelligence analyst with the FBI.

No PV, the PC only care about the terrorists' 'rights'. Americans need not apply for justice.
 
51Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 20:02
the PC only care about the terrorists' 'rights'. Americans need not apply for justice.

Funny how you're so eager to exonerate the American, yet have convicted Manur of terrorism, based on what? NOTHING ....except maybe the color of his skin and nationality.
 
52Boldwin
      ID: 581571417
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 21:44
Based on the people who knew the situation. That would not include you.
 
53Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 21:48
Yes, I'm sure you know all about it, quick as you are to allow civil rights to flow to non-Americans.
 
54sarge33rd
      ID: 201211422
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 21:52
Based on the people who knew have a vested interest in a specific outcome re the situation. That would not include you. (nor would include you B, myself, nor 99.99999% of the people who might one day read this.)

There, now it's honest.
 
55Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 22:29
Take a jump if you still think Behenna is guilty.

I don't know why I bother, but instead of actually researching this case, you just spewed the reactionary talking points as if you'd uncovered some kind of gotcha!

Let me preface this next passage by saying it's really hard, unless you've experienced it, to understand how a soldier responds when they see their fellow soldiers, their friends, killed before thier eyes. The mental anguish is impossible to gague.

That said, the testimony of Dr. McDonnell that the defense attempted to use for a mistrial, that Boldwin expresses that the prosecution should be imprisoned over, hinged on whether Mansur was sitting or standing when he was shot.

Here are the undisputed facts prior to the actual shooting.

>Behenna(with his interpreter and Sgt Warner), led Mansur away from the company against orders, so Behenna could interrogate him.

>Behenna, once away from the company, pointed his weapon at Mansur threatening to kill him unless he started naming insurgents.

>Behenna and Warner used knives to cut off Mansur's clothing, leaving him naked.

>Mansur is shot and killed.

>After he is shot, Behenna and Warner place a grenade under his head, and Mansur's naked, mutilated body is found by villagers the next day.

Boldwin would have us belive that Mansur, led away from the group, told he was going to be executed, stripped naked and unarmed, lunged at Behenna, therefor making the shooting self-defense. Proof that Behenna's not guilty.

If there's any self defense involved, it's Mansur making a feeble attempt to lunge for the gun.

But the translator says that didn't happen. His and Warner's eyewitness account is that Behenna simply executed him.

Either way, Behenna's self defense story is just that - a story. He initiated the entire incident, which would have never occurred had he followed orders.


 
56Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Tue, Feb 15, 2011, 22:50
Tree

Find an actual Poliboard poster to make any requests you may have.


yep, didn't think you had a leg to stand on.

55 posts in, and you can't name one single stance on an issue that your hero du jour has.

typical of you.

when asked to produce facts, you attack. because you have nothing.
 
57Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 17:45
you've had two days to do more research. guess the emperor has no clothes.
 
61Boldwin
      ID: 131561710
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 18:03
PV

Too bad he didn't tuck him into bed and read him a bedtime story.
 
62DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 18:49
LOL. Never, ever, ever bitch about anyone else's lack of civility again.
 
63Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 19:31
Too bad he didn't tuck him into bed and read him a bedtime story.

Too bad he didn't follow orders. Then he wouldn't be doing a couple decades in Leavenworth.
 
64Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 21:16
murderers, liars, and criminals. these are the people being worshiped.
 
65Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 18:34
Alan West is disgusted.

“It is such a critical time for our Republic, yet there seems no visionary leadership — it is as if America stopped producing adults. I have never seen a greater assembly of petulance and sophomoric behavior as what I have witnessed this week on the floor of the House of Representatives.

Way to rally the troops, Mr. West. And if you've never seen a greater example of petulance and sophmoric behavior, I can only conclude you missed this edition of the
Glenn Beck Show.
 
68Boldwin
      ID: 58119236
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 08:08
How CAIR representatives should be responded to.



If there is an American alive today who can do that better I haven't heard him.
 
69Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 08:51
"You attacked us!"

What a slime pit of sub-humanity in that room.
 
70Boldwin
      ID: 58119236
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 11:04
Nice rhetoric.
 
71Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 11:13
I'll go with too nice.
 
72Boldwin
      ID: 58119236
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 11:55
How far is it in your view from sub-humanity to lack of human rights?
 
73Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 12:04
I have no idea what you're talking about. And weren't you anti-human rights just last week in the Egypt thread?
 
74Boldwin
      ID: 58119236
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 13:20
So everyone who believes CAIR's line of BS is really just taqiyya is a sub-human, are they?

What a forum.
 
75DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 13:22
Love it or leave it, IMO.
 
76Boldwin
      ID: 55217158
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 01:45
Oh those racist Tea Partiers



WND poll of their viewers.

Both West and Cain are black of course. I think Cain is openly running. West hasn't even thrown his hat in the ring even by way of winks but look where these guys are despite the lack of name recognition and media hype.
 
77Boldwin
      ID: 55217158
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 01:49
Answering the question, "Who's your choice for Republican presidential nominee in 2012?" of course.
 
78biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 02:16
That just blows out of the water...

... the strawman that all tea-baggers are racist.

You've shown that at least 20% aren't, and I will go out on a limb to say that the percentage is well above 50%!

 
79Mith
      ID: 51253421
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 02:49
While I agree that the racism charge is a straw man, I'd also offer that a personal choice of a black person for president doesn't necessarily preclude racism.

Even if you don't agree, when one of that pol's central messages is the fearmongering character assassination of a minority religious group, at best you're just swapping out one form of prejudice and bigotry for another.
 
80Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 09:23
How is WND representative of Tea Partiers?
WND consistently supports the massive funding of Israel, which is ideologically opposed to the Tea Party philosophy of limited government and responsible federal spending.

When a true Tea Party politician, Rand Paul, favored cutting aid to Israel(as well as other countries), he was immediately excoriated by the pro-Israeli lobby, of which WND is 100% supportive.

If there's any real shock to that poll, it's that Donald Trump equaled Chris Christie and beat Gingrich and Huckabee. Romney doesn't even show.

Speaking of Trump, his numbers may have risen in this poll, had he come out earlier as a birther, since WND has established itself as Birther Central. I suppose WND followers were simply impressed by this Trump philosophy:

“Part of the beauty of me is that I’m very rich. So if I need $600 million, I can put up $600 million myself. That’s a huge advantage over the other candidates.”

Not mentioned is the staggering debt Trump has run up in his empire, leading to
numerous bankruptcy filings.

If this were indeed a poll reflective of Tea Party preferences, how to explain that a reckless, bellicose Donald Trump outpolls a successful and responsible businessman like Mitt Romney?
 
81Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 10:36
Tea Partiers aren't against the idea of blacks. They are against the idea of governing.
 
82Boldwin
      ID: 202591810
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 12:00
Oh, then can we get a broad Poliboard stipulation from this point forward that the Tea Party is not racist?

Cause I am tired of hearing that vacuous insulting crap.
 
83DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 12:14
I will happily stipulate that not all members of the Tea Party are racists if you'll happily stipulate that some of them are.
 
84DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 11:59
I assume by the lack of response that the counter-stipulation is officially weaseled away from. Big shock.
 
85Boldwin
      ID: 202591810
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 15:51
I assume by the lack of response - T

See 'T'.
 
86Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 15:01
West slams GOP leadership for holding the military pay "hostage" in budget fight.

Given how poorly our men and women in uniform are paid, it is pretty bad for the GOP leadership (who don't seem all that unified in all this) to shut down the government in the hopes that the Dems will offer up Planned Parenthood after they've already agreed on a number.
 
87Boldwin
      ID: 54431118
      Sun, May 01, 2011, 21:02
I don't care in what order on the ticket, here is the other half of the only winning ticket republicans have.



Herman Cain Wins 2012 Presidential Forum in Manchester, New Hampshire
 
88Tree
      ID: 16329157
      Sun, May 01, 2011, 21:16
a guy who has not served in an elected office at any level, who is pro-affirmative action (the Conservatives will love that!), and anti-abortion even in cases of rape and incest (the moderates will love that!).

oh, and then there's the whole thing where he said if he were president, he would have no problem discriminating on religious grounds when appointing members of his cabinet. (the crazies will love that! actually, they will. scary.)
 
89Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sun, May 01, 2011, 23:56
here is the other half of the only winning ticket republicans have.

Completely agree.
 
90Boldwin
      ID: 54431118
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 04:16
Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, and no one appreciates brevity more than me but...

...anytime SZ says he 'completely agrees with me' I expect that to be expanded upon.
 
91bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 09:38
What is his take on the "natural born" issue, or is he also afraid of the media?
 
92Boldwin
      ID: 243229
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:32
He has a lot more to fear from all the race hustlers in the Dem party demonizing him, than he does from the media. They can be very cruel when they see anyone step off the democrat plantation and put their scam in a bad light.
 
93Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:36
President Obama will win a second term, it really doesn't matter who you throw out there against him. I'm encouraging Republicans to nominate Herman Cain and Alan West, that would be a fun fight... but Barak would win that one, too.
 
94Boldwin
      ID: 243229
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:40
Out of curiousity what was your predicted republican gain in the last election?

I will admit that if the real conservatives like Rush stay on the sidelines like last presidential election and allow a Soros sponsored phony to get the nomination Obama might look good in comparison only.
 
95Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:41
no shocker that you support a candidate who brags about the fact he'll discriminate based on religious beliefs.
 
96Boldwin
      ID: 243229
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:44
I hope a president Cain would get to descriminate right down to the exact people he wants on his team.
 
97Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:13
but based on religious beliefs? sorry, don't need someone like that running our country. like i said though, no shocker you support someone with bigoted beliefs.
 
98Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:33
I don't have any problem with a President discriminating in that way with his cabinet. A President should be free to surround himself with advisers he wants.

Of course, that might be a reason not to vote for him in the first place. But, if elected, he should be able to choose his own cabinet.
 
99Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 12:20
I'll side with PD (and to some degree Boldy) on this. If he's elected he can appoint anyone he wants to Cabinet positions, no questions asked from me.

That said, I'd never elect someone who chooses their advisers based on religious bigotry.
 
100Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Mon, May 02, 2011, 13:33
and i have no issues with a president choosing his cabinet.

but to discriminate against someone because they're Muslim or Jewish or Christian? that goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for.
 
101Boldwin
      ID: 3043675
      Sat, May 07, 2011, 06:48
First Tier Candidate: Guys Soros, PD, The Washington Post and the Huffington Post think should be the Republican candidate.

Second Tier Candidate: Guys the public actually want to run.

 
102Boldwin
      ID: 3043675
      Sat, May 07, 2011, 06:50
Because you know, those racist tea partiers, in the racist South, in the racist GOP, who don't like Obama because they are racist...

Gotta be a West/Cain ticket. Got to be.
 
103Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 12:15
Because you know, those racist tea partiers, in the racist South, in the racist GOP, who don't like Obama because they are racist...


what are you trying to say? that there's no racism in the tea party, the south, the GOP, and among those who don't like Obama?
 
104DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 13:31
Yes, that's exactly what he's trying to say. Now that we know he's obviously ignorant on that point too, we can point, laugh, and move on.
 
105Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 13:52
Apparently it is only "liberals" who are self-loathing, DW.
 
106DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 14:05
It's only liberals who are (insert any bad thing ever), PD.

I look forward to extensive discussions of how experience doesn't matter at all, and quoting four year old posts to the direct contrary to be compared and then spun/ignored/subject changed into how someone's godmother's cousin's third-grade gym teacher was a (pick one or more of: Marxist/socialist/pedophile/liberal/communist/Moslem (sic)/Kenyan/terrorist).

OK, I lied. I'm not THAT self-loathing.
 
107Boldwin
      ID: 23410814
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 15:11
Apparently it is only "liberals" who are self-loathing, DW.

1) Self-loathing is not a positive characteristic that conservatives should be copying from liberals.

2) I enjoy the fact that liberals are incapable of processing the evidence that South Carolina Republicans overwhelmingly want a particular black president. Your minds are blissfully devoid of useful lessons learned from that fact. You are unencumbered by reality.
 
108Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 15:55
South Carolina Republicans overwhelmingly want a particular black president?
 
109Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 16:02
Baldy:

You don't know this yet, but you will get one and only one thing right when predicting the 2012 elections. That prediction will be that whomever runs as the Rep. candidate will lose. You will be wildly wrong about the reason why he/she loses, believe me. It won't matter how many polls are conducted after the election, you will maintain that this Rep. is a RINO and Americans won't vote for RINO, they always go for the Dems. when faced that choice.

You think because you "predicted" (HA!) that the Republicans would do well in 2010 that you actually have this prognosticating skill. Nothing could be further from the truth. Even a stopped clock gets the time right twice a day, a broken record that repeats, "Republican Landslide" only gets it right once every 15-20 years. 2012 will not be one of those years, so why not get that retirement underway now.
 
110DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 17:29
Re: 108 -- well, yeah, there's like thirty people in that room, isn't that conclusive enough proof for you?
 
111Tree
      ID: 16329157
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 18:26
2) I enjoy the fact that liberals are incapable of processing the evidence that South Carolina Republicans overwhelmingly want a particular black president. Your minds are blissfully devoid of useful lessons learned from that fact. You are unencumbered by reality.

didn't realize Rick Santorum was black...

Santorum, a conservative from Pennsylvania, was the only presidential candidate to attend the South Carolina party's annual dinner on Friday night. He won 150 out of 408 votes cast in the presidential preference poll of dinner attendees.

That trounced second-place finisher Mitt Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, who received 61 votes. In third place was former pizza executive Herman Cain with 44 votes.


and the simple fact that YOU, of all people, are saying others are unencumbered by reality is among the richest and most unintentionally hysterical comments ever made on this board.
 
112Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 20:14
I don't see why that straw poll is representative of SC Republicans. But that said I have no idea what evidence B is speaking of, either. The most recent SC presidential survey at pollster was taken last summer though that site isn't nearly as good since it became part of huffpo.
 
113Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 21:48
I don't see why that straw poll is representative of SC Republicans. But that said I have no idea what evidence B is speaking of, either.

that was kind of my point. they're both random polls that don't mean a heck of a lot at this point.
 
114Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 21:58
they're both random polls

Huh? Clearly I missing something. What poll found SC favoring Cain or West or an anonymous black candidate?
 
115Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sun, May 08, 2011, 22:06
sorry. "random poll" was a poor choice of words. not sure what the right choice was, but perhaps "statements of little consequence"?

regarding the debate, however.

The first face-off between the Grand Old Party's third-stringers was so bereft of consequence that House Speaker John Boehner, spotted at a Washington steakhouse at the same time the Fox News-hosted debate was going on, allowed as how he would be satisfied to "read about it tomorrow."

On a night when everyone who might actually end up as the party's challenger to President Obama was otherwise engaged, the Republican remainders distinguished themselves with lines like Godfather's Pizza king Cain's response to a question about Afghanistan policy: "At this point, I don't know all the facts."


and, there's the part where he's OK with violating the Constitution and in favor of torture.

yep. there's a man i want as my President or VP.

 
116Mith
      ID: 123351710
      Mon, May 09, 2011, 08:54
OK, so does anyone know what "evidence" B is talking about in 107 #2?
 
117Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, May 09, 2011, 11:04
I think he's referring to the fact that Cain was declared the "winner" by many pundits of the first GOP debate, held in South Carolina.
 
118Mith
      ID: 123351710
      Mon, May 09, 2011, 11:09
I was afraid his answer would be that he believes the SC GOP collectively shares the same brain as life-long New Yorker, Sean Hannity.
 
119sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, May 09, 2011, 14:51
AC prolly said it somewhere, and we all know B's position on anything AC utters.
 
120Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Wed, May 11, 2011, 17:44
Interview of Allen West by a friend of mine:

Part 1 - on Islam

Part 2 - on Medicare and Foreign Policy
 
121Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Thu, May 12, 2011, 12:57
Part 3 - on Palestine, Gays in the Military and Planned Parenthood
 
122Boldwin
      ID: 6443123
      Thu, May 12, 2011, 13:54
A clinic on how to deal with biased interviewers.

Let's hope other republicans take notes.
 
123Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Thu, May 12, 2011, 16:22
What bias?
 
124Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Thu, May 12, 2011, 16:49
Duh, anyone who is not an ultra-conservative Sean Hannity/Rush Limbaugh fanboy is biased.
 
125sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Thu, May 12, 2011, 18:16
more like a clinic on how to evade giving an answer that in anyway addresses the question. Talk about being antagonistic, West was in that interview.
 
126Boldwin
      ID: 14557416
      Sat, Jun 04, 2011, 22:31
The intelligent uber-left [yes there are some] take a serious look at Cain.

  • Original Tea Party favorite [unlike the 'me too' kind - B]

  • Inoculates TP from racism charges

  • an implicit living rebuke to his fellow African-Americans, who have, in the imaginations of many white conservatives, been led like sheep to the slaughter by the shadowy forces who use them as pawns in their socialist schemes.

  • when Margaret Sanger started Planned Parenthood, the objective was to put these centers in primarily black communities so they could help kill black babies before they came into the world. You don't see that talked that much about ... It's not Planned Parenthood. No, it's planned genocide. You can quote me on that.

  • He does not hold back [we saw how powerfully that worked for Trump - B]

    But not to worry. He's peaking too soon.

    Uh huh
 
127Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Jun 04, 2011, 23:03
You think being a foreign policy know-nothing is a non factor?
 
128Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jun 05, 2011, 00:04
Inoculates TP from racism charges

This is important for the Right. The reason Palin was chosen by McCain is that they were hoping to answer perceived sexism charges.

Sadly, both choices are wildly overthought.

Cain very well could win the nomination, and that will happen about 5 minutes after party leaders decide they can't win in 2012 and want to just mail it in.

So long as the party leaders believe they can win, Cain stands no chance. Because, in the end, the party leaders are the ones who decide who the presidential nominee is. There's no way they will let the Tea Party take over that aspect of the party, until (and unless) they think they don't have a real shot.
 
129Boldwin
      ID: 14557416
      Sun, Jun 05, 2011, 02:26
I thot you were the one who picked the republican nomineee. You did last time. Great job.
 
130Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jun 05, 2011, 09:58
Sadly, I did not pick the GOP Vice President candidate, which hurt you guys pretty badly in the end.

If you are under the impression that the far right picks either party's Presidential nominee -- well, good luck to you.
 
131Boldwin
      ID: 14557416
      Sun, Jun 05, 2011, 12:58
The republicans will be relegated to permanent third party status if they don't nominate the TP's choice in 2012.
 
132DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Jun 05, 2011, 13:04
Oh, if only.
 
133sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Sun, Jun 05, 2011, 14:11
re 126...I dont suppose it has occured to you, that PP locations are where they are, to accommodate those most in need of their services? I know such a radical idea as COMPASSION, genuinely provided; is foreign to you politically speaking.
 
134Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jun 05, 2011, 14:13
#131/132. Fingers crossed!
 
135Tree
      ID: 16329157
      Sun, Jun 05, 2011, 16:13
The republicans will be relegated to permanent third party status if they don't nominate the TP's choice in 2012.

that will knock the Tea Party completely out of the rankings...who's going to have "second party" status? the fledgling Coffee Party?
 
136Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jun 05, 2011, 18:59
I have no idea why a discussion about Herman Cain goes in this thread but for whatever it's worth (not much) right now I'd say Romney/Cain looks like the most likely GOP ticket. The bottom half is the highest Cain will go.

FNC might be able to falsely convince a majority of the Israel-supporting electorate that Obama's Israel policy is significantly different from George "best friend Israel ever had in the White House" Bush but they won't be able to gloss over a parade of Dem ads featuring Cain's indifference to the longest fighting war in American history and complete ignorance of at least one key issue in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Notice Boldwins complete omission of his glaring foreign policy flaws listed in the "intelligent uber-left" article linked above and refusal to address that point when it was repeated in this thread.
 
137Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 23:40
 
139Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Oct 01, 2011, 22:06
Herman Cain wins Midwest Straw Poll [just hours ago]. On the TV news so no link.
 
140sarge33rd
      ID: 49953116
      Sat, Oct 01, 2011, 22:18
Bachmann wins here, Perry wins there, Cain won that one....

absolutely NO unity, no conforming or joining behind a singular candidate...

this entire next 6 months, is gonna be the Republicans ripping the Republicans, and giving the electorate any number of reasons to NOT to vote for the RNC's nomination.
 
141Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 02, 2011, 00:01
Well hey, that never happened in primary season before.
 
142Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Oct 02, 2011, 01:28
that never happened in primary season before.

to this extent?

there isn't a front runner. there's a flavor-du-jour that changes direction as often as the wind does.
 
143Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 02, 2011, 01:47
The base is harder to fool with the usual establishment phoney than usual. They have to try out a lotta phoneys this year.
 
144Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Oct 02, 2011, 11:16
The base is harder to fool with the usual establishment phoney than usual. They have to try out a lotta phoneys this year.

the base, may be "harder to fool", but they are certainly the bigger fools.
 
145Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Sun, Oct 02, 2011, 11:44
They have to try out a lotta phoneys this year.

Its good that you finally recognize the GOP for what they are.
 
146Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Oct 02, 2011, 12:43
Heh.

I think the base isn't acting so much as they are now "harder to fool." I think it is now that they are far less flexible than in the past.

Unfortunately, the Democratic decision to, essentially, sit out the 2010 election emboldened the hardcore, non-compromising wing of the GOP. So we're stuck with two years of GOP inability to work with Democrats until enough of them get booted from the House to make it an actual, functioning part of the government again.

This "midwest straw poll" wasn't a GOP poll at all, but a poll among attendees at a tea party even. Of which Cain was the only announced candidate to even go.

Cain won a Tea Party convention's straw poll. Is it possible to get any more meaningless?
 
147Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Sun, Oct 02, 2011, 13:01
Is it possible to get any more meaningless? -

Only thing I can think of is the "pay to vote" (or candidate pays for my vote) in Iowa.
 
148Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 05:05
Farn

Chances are very good that the establishment choice in your party isn't pulling in the direction you think he is or the direction you want either.

They just figure out what noises you want and expect, pose for you, then they go back to slaving for their campaign donors who do not have your best interests at heart and don't actually share your goals.

The power elite are just sailing across the winds going off in directions the prevailing wind has not chosen.
 
149Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 05:10
And meaningless? Tea Party straw polls would be meaningless if the Tea Party movement was meaningless and insignificant.

 
150Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 09:35
Tea Party straw polls would be meaningless if the Tea Party movement was meaningless and insignificant.

it is becoming just that as time goes on, and in a couple years, it will be viewed in a similar light as John Anderson's presidential run - another failed idea that seemed like a great idea in a vacuum.
 
151Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 10:42
If the Tea Party were its own party it might carry come meaning.

But this is like holding a poll among attendees at a DailyKos convention. It doesn't actually hold any weight, particularly if only one candidate is attending.

Put another way--what, exactly, do you think this measures? The considered opinions of a representative sample of Republicans? A post-debate survey where the opinions are selected among people who had a chance to hear a number of candidates speak to them?

This is, in fact, a small (and diminishing) bubble of the GOP, which represents your interests. So you've puffed up the result.
 
152Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 11:14
The Tea Party is insignificant, and this will be borne out by the fact that a non-Tea Party candidate will win the GOP nomination. The Tea Party's fifteen minutes are over.
 
154sarge33rd
      ID: 42924310
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 11:26
They just figure out what noises you want and expect, pose for you, then they go back to slaving for their campaign donors who do not have your best interests at heart and don't actually share your goals.

An apt description of the DNC, the perfect description of the RNC.

Probably B, the most accurate and honest comment of yours in what? Close to a decade?


(Note: 153 self edited when the quote from B didnt italicize as intended)
 
155scoobies
      ID: 425462015
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 15:31
re: 148
"They just figure out what noises you want and expect, pose for you, then they go back to slaving for their campaign donors who do not have your best interests at heart and don't actually share your goals."

I guess I don't understand the distinction being made. Isn't this exactly what we've seen from Bachmann, Cain, Perry, Santorum,...?
 
156Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 23:21
Bachmann and Cain are the real deal which is why they will run out of money any day now.

Perry is the poser who will never run out of money.

Santorum is a wildcard I haven't really figured out. He seems all over the place without consistent philosophy but at this point that's more impression than studied conclusion. He just hasn't thrown out any red meat that got me excited enuff to study him more carefully.
 
157Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 23:32
Razor

The Tea Party will either get their way in congress or in the WH and if they don't they will burn the GOP down to the ground and start a party they do like. The last thing they are is irrelevant. They may even Nader the GOP and give you what you want by default but they aren't gonna settle for Rockafeller republicans anymore and they aren't insignificant.

They are the most energetic political force in this country and not a spent force by any stretch. Maybe when the threat of a radical marxist in the WH is just a memory they will go back to their easy chairs.
 
158Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Oct 03, 2011, 23:53
They should put that into a time capsule.

The Tea Party has jumped the shark. It is dead but doesn't know it. Name a legislative or policy goal it has accomplished (blocking legislation doesn't count)?
 
159Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 00:05
Talk about wishful thinking, PD!

Do you really intend to defend the position that Obama would have been reduced to agreeing to freezing spending and only arguing about taxes vs spending cuts, without the Tea Party setting the terms of the debate?

Yeah, like Obama is naturally inclined to freeze spending. As if! Obama barely waited for the echoes of the debt ceiling debate to fade before proposing another budget busting stealth stimulus#3 disguised as a jobs bill.

And note that vulnerable senate Dems [there are a lot this cycle] are afraid to bring that bill to the floor. Why is that?
 
160Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 02:12
The Tea Party will either get their way in congress or in the WH and if they don't they will burn the GOP down to the ground and start a party they do like. The last thing they are is irrelevant. They may even Nader the GOP and give you what you want by default but they aren't gonna settle for Rockafeller republicans anymore and they aren't insignificant.

They are the most energetic political force in this country and not a spent force by any stretch. Maybe when the threat of a radical marxist in the WH is just a memory they will go back to their easy chairs.


someone here is the biggest kool aid drinker around, and thy name is Baldwin.

the Tea Party is DOA. Bachmann has already moved into irrelevance, and Perry is hot on her heels. Cain is hot again at the moment, only because the last drip drops of the tea party refuse to let Romney walk away with it, but soon enough, Cain will be a memory too.

i would wager a lot of cash that by 2014, the tea party is breathing its last breaths as any sort of remotely organized force.
 
161Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 15:41
Sent to me by an old high school girlfriend
 
162Farn @ work
      ID: 377472411
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 17:09
Maybe when the threat of a radical marxist in the WH is just a memory

Boldwin, what will you do if the "radical marxist" gets re-elected? And don't say "no chance" or "if he gets re-elected the election was fixed by his marxist buddies". What will your reaction be?
 
163Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 20:32
I'd start cutting my budget back even further.
 
164Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 20:39
And don't say "no chance"

I would never underestimate the effectiveness of nearly infinite Soros dollars, a Stanley Greenberg production - staged revolution/carnival/happening, and a slavish MSM spinning that endlessly in Obama's direction while looking the other way from the real America and their feelings.
 
165Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 21:13
infinite Soros dollars

According to tthis year's Forbes 400 richest Americans, Soros came in at #7 with 22 billion.

#3 is Charles Koch with 25 billion and #4 is David Koch, also 25 billion. So, together, the Tea Party bankrollers, with 50 billion, have more than double Soros money to throw at their staged revolutions/carnivals.
 
166Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 21:37
It's not just Soros' money.

Soros is directing the assets of the richest family in the world, the Rothschilds, and some of their rich pals such as James Goldsmith, Marc Rich, Edmond Safra, Edgar de Picciotto, Carlo De Benedetti, Shaul Eisenberg, Rafi Eytan, Paul Reichmann, and pretty much every Italian mafia kingpin it seems like.

Most of those guys can shake a government all by themselves, but add all of them and their money together in the Quantum Fund and others, and stir in Rothschild insider information and there isn't much they can't accomplish when they set themselves to a task.
 
167Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Oct 05, 2011, 22:03
Ya see, the problem here is that while your speculative accusations are interesting, the Koch Brothers saga is well documented. In 1980, David Koch ran for vice president on the Libertarian ticket, pledging to abolish Social Security, the Federal Reserve System, welfare, minimum wage laws and federal agencies -- including the Department of Energy, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Central Intelligence Agency.

Koch Industries -- in addition to being involved in improper payments to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East -- has sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran, a country the U.S. identifies as a sponsor of global terrorism.

The Koch Rothers are every bit as powerful and manipulative as Soros in their business and political dealings, and let's face it, if Soros was a contributor to Republicans instead of Democrats, he'd be your hero too.



 
168Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 13:00
Soros is a contributor to republicans and in fact he owns John McCain and no the Koch brothers aren't remotely in the same financial level as the Rothschilds.
 
169Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 16:36
and in fact he owns John McCain

Really, in fact? It's not a fact at all, simply your continuous childish insistence on smear and slander.

In fact, OSI donations to McCain's Reform Institute(not a campaign for office)in 2001, is dwarfed by the amount the Koch Brothers have contributed directly to Michelle Bachmann. So, in your vernacular, Bachmann is owned by the Koch Brothers.

no the Koch brothers aren't remotely in the same financial level as the Rothschilds.

Even though you have absolutely no idea if this statement is true or not, you present it as a fact. Attempting to estimate the total value of the Rothschild family, especially given that some members left the fold to become independent, most notably Jacob, who has more connections to Rupert Murdoch and Sarah Palin than George Soros, is pure speculation.
 
170Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 10:25
Allen West - a dangerous neocon that should be kept as far away from the presidency as possible
 
171DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 10:31
Good thing nobody here is crazy enough to fall for him... oh.
 
172sarge33rd
      ID: 5810351111
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 12:36
20 years and only made the rank of Lt Col? Col, should have been the attained rank w/o the political ass kissing, General with it. So being stopped at Lt Col, tells me a LOT about the man. (To compare, Cpts are Company Command rank. Must be attained within 4 years. Then its Major, where you move into a Battalion Staff position. Then its Lt Col, where you become Battalion Commander. Generally, this is done with 10-13 years. Next is Col and then General.)
 
173Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 15:03
Yeah, it means he says and does the right thing instead of toeing the office politics line.
 
174DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 15:21
So the military is not doing the right thing?

Cool, we can stop overfunding them then. Glad you agree.
 
175Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 15:27
No, an example of toeing the office line there would be to ask about the remaining Viet Nam POW's. That will hold you back bigtime.
 
176DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 15:47
Iron Eagle was Lou Gossett Jr., not Allen West. Easy mistake though.
 
177Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 16:15
#175: So he asked McCain?
 
178Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 23:12
he says...the right thing

“This is a Chamberlain-Churchill moment for the United States of America. You cannot compromise with and appease a dictator, a despot, a theocrat, and an autocrat, and that’s exactly what you have in Iran. And we’re giving them so many signals to say they’ve got a green light." - Allen West

A Chamberlain-Churchill moment? Attempting to apply that analogy to this situation either shows a complete ignorance of history or such a thirst for perpetual warfare or both.
Iran has not invaded and annexed a neighboring Sudetenland. In fact, one of their neighbors, Pakistan, is a nuclear-armed nation with a Sunni majority with an inherent hatred for Shia Iran. Another neighbor, Afghanistan, has been occupied by US and other nation's troops for 10 years. Another neighbor, Iraq, has been subjected to a US invasion and retains the largest embassy(read spy center) in the entire world. So exactly how is this a Chamberlain-Churchill moment?

And we've compromised with and appeased many a dictator, despot, theocrat and autocrat when we felt it served our interests.

As far as sending Iran so many signals that they have a green light, how does Mr. West explain
this pending transaction?


Washington, Nov 11(ANI): The United States is planning to sell thousands of advanced "bunker-buster" bombs and other ammunitions to the United Arab Emirates, as a part of its efforts to counter Iran.

The plan is a part of a larger US drive to build up six Gulf Cooperation Council members, which comprises Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, U.A.E. and Kuwait, as a unified opposition to Iran.


If Republicans want to win in 2012, here is their candidate. Anything less will not do. - Boldwin 2/14/2011

Two thoughts come to mind. Boldwin is on record in opposition to neoconservatives, chastizing them for taking Republicans in a dangerous direction during the Bush administration. Yet he's gung ho for West, who makes neoconservatives look like doves.

West is a member of the Tea Party Caucus. That must be a joke. He wants bigger military government involvement in the world sinking our treasury deeper into debt, under the guise that we would be unable to adequately protect and defend ourselves...against Iran!
Bigger government - yes; Irresponsible spending -yes; Tea Party ideology - no(at least before it was hijacked).

I do agree with one thing West said in his Newsmax interview.

And furthermore, the mutually assured destruction theory, the MAD theory that we had with the Soviet Union, that’s out the window now with Iran.”

Well, yeah, since we have thousands of nuclear weapons and sophisticated delivery systems and Iran has none, only Iran faces assured destruction.









 
179Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 22:35
Rep. West on the video of US Marines desecrating corpses of Taliban fighters:
“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”
 
180Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 23:19
PV

You have zero idea what the USA is up against vis-a-vis the jihadist threat in the world. Discussing West and the threat salafists pose, both shia and sunni just goes over your head.

Trying to contain it in Iran won't work because the horse is now out of the barn with the misnamed Arab spring. But at least he gets the seriousness of the problem posed by muslims who think like Iran's leaders.

MITH

What he said. Exactly.
 
181sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 23:27
Mr West, can feel free to shut his pie-hole any time now. He is flat wrong about the Delta snipers and Mogadishu. Both of those men, would be apalled that those Marines acted that way AND, that anyone dare use their cases as justification for that action.

Yes, war is hello. That is made further true, when you hold yourself to the morale highground.

B,you said in part...

PV

You have zero idea...


Thats right B..you have ZERO idea what it means to take the oath, don the uniform, then conduct yourself as a professional. NONE.
 
182Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 23:34
Yeah, I remember how soldiers actually treat enemy bodies from the Viet Nam war.

I do hold the conduct of the intelligence units against them but the trophies soldiers collected don't trouble me at all.

Wizzing on them was the least of Charlies' problems. But you can tell me all about how professional the conduct actually is in the field. Go ahead.
 
183sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 23:40
Many people B, could and have told you a lot of things. You however, do not hear them.
 
184Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 23:55
You have zero idea what the USA is up against vis-a-vis the jihadist threat in the world. Discussing West and the threat salafists pose, both shia and sunni just goes over your head.

Incredible you can make this paragraph. I have every idea what the US is up against, and zero goes over my head. Your hubris doesn't fool anyone. You're a puppet for the military industrial complex and the real power elite you claim to oppose.

 
185Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 00:29
Zero goes over your head...lol.
the Muslim Brotherhood has been a positive force - PV, @38 Social Network Wars thread
Seriously, stew over those words when we are in a world war organized against us by the MB you praised, Mr. Nothing-zooms-past-my-head.
 
186Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 00:41
What fraud you are. Give the entire post in context. And quit with the "when we" predictions that are meaningless.

I've posted circles around you on this subject(and numerous others) for years now. You seem to think getting your news from WorldNetDaily makes you an expert. It just makes you a fraud.
 
187Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 01:24
Those words will have a whole new context all too soon.
 
188Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 01:56
West's comments on the desecration of Americans is silly childish illogic. The idea that we should judge American against the standard of the worst atrocities committed against us is barbaric. I know for a fact that Boldwin knows it, even if his abject hero worship forces him to flee or distort the issue.

I understand that war is hell, and that I cannot really understand that hell. I understand that to sufficiently train young men to do such a terrible thing as to kill other men, that you are training them to do an inhuman thing. And that they will do inhuman things, and not just to the already dead. So I'd defer to West on the appropriate discipline. But I'd much quicker defer to someone on the ground there today who fully understands the impact of this betrayal to the war effort. And the act is not just the desecration of a few enemy corpses. It is the deliberate staging and global exhibition of it. I think only someone who deals daily with the crucial task of winning over the locals can know what kind of damage it might have done and fairly guess at how many more American and innocent limbs and lives might be lost because of it. That should be considered before deciding their punishment.

But it's West's last line that is offensive. The notion that only those who have experienced the ugliness of war deserve the right to express an opinion of it is offensively shameful. There are few things I take greater exception to than being told I have no right to express an opinion - especially about an act that, whether i like it or not, is committed on my behalf and is a reflection of what I regard as a part of my identity.

The first thing that struck me when I saw the video was that if this event was so casually staged and recorded as this seems to have been, it may not be an isolated incident. And if it turns out to be something pervasive, it needs to be exposed. The absolute last thing we should do is shut up about it. Fortunately, West will only face a certain and rightfully harsh rebuke of that demand.
 
189Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 12:00
OMG, that is just wrong on so many levels.

Do you even hear yourself when you write about doing inhuman things to the dead? They're dead. The people cutting our soldiers heads off given the chance are not moved by your delicacy. They are encouraged by your softness.
 
190Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 12:03
In fact they think your war horror is hilarious as they genuinely love death. Their own.
 
191Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 12:13
Yes, so we should treat everyone like you believe the worst of our enemies would treat us? Nice--the neo-thug comes to the forefront.

I'm not surprised to find no trace of your supposed "Christianity" in your replies on this topic.
 
192Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 12:34
President Bush probably owes no single person a greater debt for salvaging his Iraq record than the late Capt. Travis Patriquin, who was tragically killed by an IED. That's the standard of the modern American soldier that I care to see set.

Boldwin prefers the standard of the most savage Taliban fighter.

Why I should care what the latter thinks of me is beyond me but i'm pretty sure he wants me dead either way and that pissing on his dead neighbor doesn't change his mind. Though it might change the mind of his neighbor's brother, who the day before wanted no part of getting shot at by Americans.
 
193Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 13:18
Whomever is running against West in 2012 can count on a campaign contribution from me. He is a sick puppy.
 
194Tree
      ID: 11034119
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 14:35
Do you even hear yourself when you write about doing inhuman things to the dead? They're dead.

Really? You're ok with corpses being desecrated? Wow. Wow.
 
195Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 14:47
If they are dead and they don't mean anything, why would the soldiers bother at all?

Even the internal logic of condoning body desecration doesn't hold up.
 
196sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 15:36
This is simply the New Crusades. The first two, have shown the folly of trying to win it via force of arms. This war, if it is to be won, must be won socially. To desecrate the dead of oyur enemy, is to fuel their fire. To feed their hatred, to justify their own inhumanity. To condone that actioon, to justify it. to publicly proclaim it as "OK", is inhuman. Like the FL preacher who burned the Koran; you are killing Americans by your actions.
 
197Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 19:40
You guys care more about the feelings of one dead taliban fighter than millions of aborted babies that really could feel, so don't lecture me about christian feelings.
 
198sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 20:17
I'm not lecturing you about Christian feelings. I'm lecturing you about your attitude that "fck them, its all about ME", and the result OF that attitude all across the globe.
 
199Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 20:39
the feelings of one dead taliban fighter

Is that really the best quality straw in your bale?
 
200Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 23:16
Really? You're ok with corpses being desecrated?

You guys care more about the feelings of one dead taliban fighter than millions of aborted babies that really could feel, so don't lecture me about christian feelings.

i guess that's a yes. it's a new low. impressive.


 
201Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 00:38
When backed into a corner, suddenly Boldwin pulls out what he believes to be his political magic talisman and waves it around...

I guess he's hoping we don't notice that even his pro-life position is only half-Christian. And his position on his enemies is the opposite of Christian.

Please don't lecture us on your half pro-life position in order to try to draw attention away from your truly evil positions on treating God's children here on earth that you don't like.
 
202Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 00:41
You might be a liberal if…

You think Bill Maher was a hero after 9/11 for saying terrorists are brave, and Dana Loesch is a villain for insulting them. (He agrees with her on this one, BTW.)
You insist you don’t sympathize with terrorists, but you fly into a rage when somebody disrespects them.
Your reply to criticism of Obama is “Oh yeah, well, who killed Bin Laden?”, but you become furious when Bin Laden’s pals are humiliated.

Let this be a lesson to everyone: If you want to pee on a dead terrorist, first wrap him in an American flag. Then Keith Olbermann, Eric Boehlert, and other leading lights of liberalism will cheer you on.

uh-oh-if-we-dont-watch-out-the-taliban-wont-like-us-anymore, Jim Treacher, The Daily Caller
 
203Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 01:15
You might be a liberal if…

you might be Baldwin if you condone the desecration of corpses. and once again, hold criminals up to hero worship.

and then try to blame others for your own sick beliefs.
 
204Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 06:44
If the piss taliban offends you and the piss christ doesn't.
 
205Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 07:04
I tell you once again, the Iranian people are our friends, which irritates the mullahs [and Obama apparently] no end.
As the world goes gaga over the latest mishap, I couldn’t help but thinking about hundreds of little girls who were splashed with acid on their way to school by these same so-called fighters. Boys in orphanages dressed in drag to entertain and sexually arouse these animals. Women disfigured, beaten, raped and kept in small rooms for years. Public hangings, stoning, beheadings and humiliation of generations of Afghanis in the hands of Taliban… and then I told myself: piss on ‘em.

I will be the first in line to shake hands with these Marines (of course after they wash their hands) and thank them for finally pissing on the right people.

- Siamack Baniameri [from safe within american exile]
 
206Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 09:42
Boldwin's un-redacted Bible:

"Love [to piss on] your enemies."

I'm not sure he realizes that the more he paints them as our active, ongoing, and horrifying enemies, the more his supposed faith is telling him to act and believe the opposite of what he is saying.
 
207Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 10:37
Are you even aware that the taliban is our active, ongoing, and horrifying enemy?

WTF happens in your brain where you conceive of the concept that I might have to 'paint' them as an enemy? Before I painted them that way what were they? Girl scouts?
 
208Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 10:39
Don't tell me your answer. Tell it to Daniel Pearl's widow.
 
209sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 11:17
How many innoc ently dead Iraqi parents have WE been responsibloe for B? How many Afghan and Iraqi orphans, ARE orphans due to our actions? Oh wait, those arent Americans so they dont count, right?

We are not innocent of blame for wrong doing B. That is the truth. And to further condone wrong doing, because it fits with your hatred of all things different from yourself, is to reveal how far from your professed beliefs you truly are.
 
210Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 12:02
Are you even aware that the taliban is our active, ongoing, and horrifying enemy?

while alive, yes.

desecrating their corpses violates pretty every code of morals and ethics imaginable. except, of course, you're own.
 
211Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 12:50
The resident Bible thumper who demands adherence to his Christian ideal from the rest us defends a cold display of desecrating enemy corpses on the grounds of naked moral equivalence (something he'd previously and harshly decried) wholly indifferent to the damage the war effort may suffer as a result.

His argument was lost inherently the moment he made it. There's no reason to pile on. Everyone reading this understands the same thing except for one person. Or maybe he does too, but succombs to open denial rather than confront his internal conflict. Either way, I doubt anything
anyone writes here will change that.

Might as well move on.
 
212Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 15:51
fair point.
 
213Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 16:05
wholly indifferent to the damage the war effort may suffer as a result.

And another thing. Every time you show them weakness, such as you are showing now, they take that as a sign that you are decadent and ready for the takeover their book predicts.

Just stand there weeping over their dead until the jihadis come.
 
214Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 16:11
Weak. Just a terribly weak response. I don't think you know anymore who "they" are, let alone know the recipe for success against them. Ceasing pissing on their dead bodies is showing "weakness?" Really?

Or, for that matter, you appear to have no working definition of "success."

Our Lord and Savior did, however. Your rejection of his path is as stark as it is unnecessary. Your prescription for perpetual war and preemptive degradation is evil.
 
215Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 16:23
PD

You have no idea what you are up against and sadly you will always believe they are reasonable mirror images of yourself who could have been negotiated with and appeased...even when they come and treat you very differently.
 
216sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 16:26
Where in the Bible, does it say to "do unto others, evenr worse than has been done unto you"?
 
217Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 16:34
In fact PD is that guy in Die Hard who gets shot while he thinks he's successfully negotiating.

Sarge
You don't understand who God's people are, and how God protects them.
 
218Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 16:37
You have no idea what you are up against

Next time you pretend to pray, offer this excuse up to Jesus.
 
219sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 17:08
re 217...that may or may not be true. You however have no clue, despite your intellect. (which you apaprently simply shut off, when it would otherwise get in your way)
 
220Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 17:26
Every time you show them weakness, such as you are showing now, they take that as a sign that you are decadent and ready for the takeover their book predicts.

Hmm.  If what you say about their book is true, and if this is really any concern to you, then their book is clearly superior to yours:
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. For “Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit; let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it.


But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
 
221Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 17:30
Mith

Again, you do not understand who God's people are, who God sends to protect his people or what God's people do in time of war.
 
222Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 17:33
I'll give you a hint. When the Goths, Vandals and Huns showed up and someone like Constantine went out to greet them...was that roman general a christian? His army?
 
223Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 17:43
And while we are at it was the general who went out to face the Canaanites and Goliath one of God's people?

Was the general who went out to face king Sennacherib one of God's people?
 
224sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 17:48
B, go start your own blog where you can spew forth your very own brand of vile, and not be called on it.
 
225Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 18:13
Literary clue: And the might of the Gentile...

- Lord Byron
 
226Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 18:34
Sarge

What? And leave the trolls here bereft of a reason for living?
 
227sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 18:50
You are far, far shy of reason for much of anything.
 
228sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 18:59
Graphic presentation of Boldwins Foreign Policy as it pertains to Islam:

 
229Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 19:04
Love it. I cite unambiguous scripture, and he counters with Old Covenant morality and the Roman Empire.

Clearly Jesus wants marines to defile dead Taliban fighters.

Like I said might as well move on.
 
230Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 01:40
And leave the trolls here bereft of a reason for living?

no, he told you to start a blog. you can troll from there.
 
231Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 07:12
MITH

Those were three examples of how God protects his people and they are all different. When you understand why then you'll understand the application of 'unambiguous' scripture.
 
232sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 12:31
Allow me to clarify for the benefit of all:

"'unambiguous' scripture. ", refers to those quotes used BY Boldwin, to demonstrate HIS points of contention. NOTHING quoted by anyone else, for any purpose outside of endorsing Boldwin's contention, counts as "'unambiguous' scripture. ".
 
233Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 12:37
He's confusing himself with God again, sarge.

"Love your enemy" is, indeed, unambiguous. It is directed at people like Boldwin and is being completely ignored by him because his god is not, in fact, God.
 
234Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 18:27
I absolutely agree with MITH's unambiguous scriptures. Just not his application. He is applying it to those who aren't christians. If they want to become christians great, but they will need to do a whole lot more than follow those particular scriptures. Oh, things like quiting the military as all true christians did who were in the military before and after the time of Constantine.

But for those who remain in the military...God uses the ungodly to protect the godly. Thank you. No undue worship of corpses is required.
 
235sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 20:16
To imply, that one can not be in the military anbd be Christian, and make such an implication with absolute certainity; demonstrates just how far over the edge you have gone.

Go ahead B, tell TB he isnt a Christian.
 
236Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 20:39
about 220 A.D., from a Christian named Hippolytus. In a discussion on dealing with converts, he stated the following: “A military constable must be forbidden to kill, neither may he swear; if he is not willing to follow these instructions, he must be rejected by the community. A procounsul or magistrate who wears the purple and governs by the sword shall give it up or be rejected. Anyone taking or already baptized who wants to become a soldier shall be sent away, for he has despised God.“
 
237Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 20:43
no Christian would become a soldier after baptism at least up to the time of Marcus Aurelius, say about A.D. 170 - Historian A. Harnack
 
238Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 21:11
I can tell you what the real christians all did before christendom was corrupted by Constantine and Plato:
"It is therefore, indisputable, that the Christians who lived nearest to the time of our Savior, believed , with undoubting confidence, the He had unequivocally forbidden war-that they openly avowed this belief , and that, in support of it, they were willing to sacrifice, and did sacrifice, their fortunes and their lives." - Dymond, historian

---

in 211 A.D., Tertullianus writes: "Do we believe that...(a Christian) may (give a promise in) answer to another master after Christ...? Will it be lawful for him to occupy himself with the sword, when the Lord declares that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? And shall the son of peace, for whom it will be unfitting even to go to law, be engaged in a battle? and shall he, who is not the avenger even of his own wrongs, administer chains and imprisonment and tortures and executions? Shall he now go on guard for another more than for Christ, or (shall he do it) on the Lord’s Day, when (he does) not (do it even) for Christ? And shall he keep watch before temples, which he has renounced? And shall he carry a flag, too, that is a rival to Christ? And shall he ask for a watchword from his chief, when he has already received one from God? And (when he is) dead, shall he be disturbed by the bugler’s trumpet-he who expects to be roused by the trumpet of the Angel?...(and) how many other sins can be seen (to belong) to the functions of camp (life) -(sins) which must be explained as transgressions (of God’s law)...If the faith comes subsequently to any (who are) already occupied in military service...when faith has been accepted and signed, either the service must be left at once, as has been done by many, or else to resolve to endure death for God...Faith knows not the meaning of the word ‘compulsion.’"

Commenting on these forceful views of Tertullianus, Cadoux [historian-B] says: "It is a mistake to regard Tertullianus as an individual dissenter from the Church as a whole on this question of whether Christians ought to serve in the army or not...When we consider these views...agree with the testimony of Origenes and the oldest Church-Orders as to the normal Christian practice in the earliest part of the third century, and were apparently endorsed by so representative a churchman as his own fellow countrymen and admirer Cyprianus, we shall hardly be inclined to believe that at this time he was voicing the opinion of a minority of Christians, still less that he represented the views of a mere handful of fanatical extremists."

---

"Maximillianus, a young Numidian Christian, just over 21, was brought before Dion the proconsul of Aficia at Teveste (Numidia) as fir for military service. This was in 295 A.D. during the reign of Maximillianus." "Maximillianus answered, ‘But why do you want to know my name? I dare not fight, since I am a Christian.’ ‘Measure him,’ said Dion the proconsul; but on being measured, Maximillianus answered, ‘I cannot fight, I cannot do evil; I am a Christian.’ Said the proconsul, ‘Let him be measured.’ And after he had been measured, the attendant read out ‘He is five feet ten.’ Then said Dion to the attendant, ‘Enroll him.’ And Maximillianus cried out, ‘No, no, I cannot be a soldier. I am a soldier of m God. I refuse the badge. Already I have Christ’s badge...If you mark me, I shall annul it as invalid...I cannot wear ought laden on my neck after the saving mark of my Lord.’ To the proconsul’s question as to what crime soldiers practiced, Maximillianus replied, ‘You know quite well what they do.’" Maximillianus was beheaded.

---

TYPASIUS (305 A.D.) "Typasius, who (earlier) had served honorably as a soldier in Mauretania and had been discharged because he desired to devote himself wholly to religion, refused to re-enter the service when recalled to the ranks and suffered martyrdom."

---

"Julius, who suffered martyrdom in Moesia, said to the judge at his trial: ‘During the time that I was, as it appears, going astray in the vain service of war, for twenty-seven years I never came before the judge as an offender or a plaintiff. Seven times did I go out on a campaign, and I stood behind no one, and I fought as well as any. The commander never saw me go wrong; and dost thou think that I, who had been found faithful in the worse things, can now be found unfaithful in the better?"

---

‘I threw down (my arms); for it was not seemly that a Christian man, who renders military service to the Lord Christ, should render it (also) by (inflicting) earthly injuries.’" "When he was sentenced to death, Cassianus, the clerk of the court, loudly protested, and flung his writing materials on the ground, declaring that the sentence was unjust: he suffered death a few days after Marcellus."
 
239sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 21:49
Well then B, we should just "throw down our arms" in the face of this Islamic terrorism eh? You know, the guys you praised for pissing on the dead Taliban guys? Now you claim, that they are condemned to an eternity of damnation.

You are one crzy fkn whack job, you know that?
 
240Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 22:07
If you have the faith and courage to be a christian, be a christian.

If everyone did, which they won't of course, they would likely experience 'the Senacherib deliverence' discussed in #223. No soldiers needed.

Since that mass conversion won't happen of course, the conclusion to #234 will apply.
 
241Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 22:20
And you can call the christians who got their rules of conduct directly from Jesus and the apostles, or first or second hand, 'crzy fn whack jobs' but I strongly suggest you don't.
 
242DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 22:26
He's not calling Christians 'crazy fn whack jobs'. He's calling crazy fn whack jobs 'crazy fn whack jobs'. It's a useful distinction.
 
243Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 22:58
If you have the faith and courage to be a christian, be a christian.

practice what you preach.

 
244Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 04:51
a) You will notice that the position of early christians and mine wrt going off to war are identical. So when Sarge calls my position 'crazy fn whack job' he's calling theirs 'crazy fn whack job'.

b) Who said anything about 'an eternity of damnation'? The dead are just dead. Conscious of nothing at all. Don't care if you piss on them. Not even a little.
 
245bibA
      ID: 4057177
      Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 09:00
.....christendom was corrupted by Constantine and Plato

Plato? I know that your man Carl Sagan found a great deal of fault with Plato because he may have kept the Greeks from advancing science. (I remember watching Cosmos, and Sagan saying that the Greeks may have actually been on their way to designing rockets that would fly into space until Plato came along). But how does one affect "christendom" a few hundred years before Christ was even born?
 
246bibA
      ID: 4057177
      Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 09:06
One other thing - Being a military man, does Allen West qualify as a Christian? Or is he an ungodly man being used to protect the few godly people?
 
247Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 09:51
you do not understand who God's people are

I'm unclear as to who God's people are as well, especially when based on discriminatory elements that have nothing to do with whether people are good or evil.
 
248Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 09:59
You will notice that the position of early christians and mine wrt going off to war are identical. So when Sarge calls my position 'crazy fn whack job' he's calling theirs 'crazy fn whack job'.

i can live with that.

the inquisition. the crusades. forced "conversion" of native americans. etc etc.

good to know that you're finally coming to grips with your own belief that killing in the name of your god is a-ok.
 
249Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 10:22
The difference between offensive and defensive wars is, again,, lost on Boldwin. He wants preemptive wars and uses as his excuse early Christians who were forced to fight for survival.

Simple and singular command: Love your enemies.

A simple and singular failure. He's not even trying to be Christian anymore--merely trolling through stories of Christians to try to find an excuse for what he wants to do anyway. Unchristian would be the most charitable description.
 
250Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 10:53
PD

You are perhaps unaware that some of us have had our heads cut off for preaching in muslim countries. I've preached to muslims at their door. Without knowing how they will react. Not quite sure what you think would motivate that preaching except love for enemies.

If muslims are coming to kill me, I'm sure not going to gang up on the soldier who stops them.
 
251sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 10:59
but you'll for damn sure hide behind him/her, all while claiming them to be "non"-Christian.(Which by your brand of faith, means unsaved, which means condemned to hell.)
 
252Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 08:10
Allen West upset at Obama for $70 fill-up of his Hummer

sometimes, folks just don't get it. LOL
 
253Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 11:18
I see a lot of grumbling by the Right about gas prices now. Like a freaking yo yo. Expect the same crap about offshore drilling to make a comeback as well.

 
254Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 11:21
Here's something I never hear of before:

Gas prices fluctuate seasonally — up in spring, down in fall — for a very specific reason: Butane. As Rapier wrote last year “Butane is a cheap ingredient in gasoline that boils at low temperatures. In winter, this isn’t a problem. But in summer, butane evaporates from gas, polluting the air while leaving us with less fuel in the tank than we paid for. As temperatures rise, refineries replace butane with more costly ingredients and draw down winter inventories just as beach season begins. Chemistry, not corporate conspiracy, limits supply.”

Source: The Truth about Political Ads about High Gas Prices
 
255Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 15:23
sometimes, folks just don't get it. LOL

"ANWR? Fuhgedaboud ANWAR. It would take ten years before we saw a drop of gas from ANWR." - Liberals ten years ago and still clueless all these years.

2008:
Underscoring its failure to grasp the nature of our current problems, the Senate Appropriations Committee on Friday refused to end its moratorium on oil shale development in Colorado.

“If we are really serious about reducing pain at the pump,” Colorado’s senior senator, Republican Wayne Allard, said, “this is a vote that would make a difference in people’s lives.” He’s right.

But the shale proposal went down to defeat with Allard and 13 other Republican members in favor and 15 Democrats opposed. Once again, Democrats were on the wrong side, opting to keep oil in the ground and punish you with higher prices as a result.

This was no minor thing. Estimates put the amount of oil locked in shale in both Canada and the U.S. at more than 1 trillion barrels. Pulling out even a tenth of that would quadruple our current reserves.

This is the same Congress that refuses to allow drilling in Alaska’s Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, which holds up to 20 billion barrels of crude, or offshore, where another 30 billion await.
---
2006: Despite Oil Crisis, Democrats AGAIN Block US Firms from Drilling! [tho China gets to drill like crazy there]
---
2011
As the price of oil approaches levels guaranteed to bring on a recession the Obama Administration has decided to block approval of drilling for oil in the Arctic Ocean.

Shell Oil Company has announced it must scrap efforts to drill for oil this summer in the Arctic Ocean off the northern coast of Alaska. The decision comes following a ruling by the EPA’s Environmental Appeals Board to withhold critical air permits. The move has angered some in Congress and triggered a flurry of legislation aimed at stripping the EPA of its oil drilling oversight.

Shell has spent five years and nearly $4 billion dollars on plans to explore for oil in the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas. The leases alone cost $2.2 billion.
---
1995 -- Oil at $18 a barrel: Democratic President Bill Clinton vetoes oil exploration in ANWR.

1998 -- Oil at $20 a barrel: Democratic President Clinton issues executive order banning offshore oil and gas drilling.

2001 -- Oil at $28 a barrel: Democrats Bonior, Stupak and Kaptur lead efforts to block Great Lakes oil exploration and drilling in Gulf.

2005 -- Oil at $45 a barrel: Democrat Rahm Emmanuel blocks BP's refinery expansion plans.

2006 -- Oil at $70 a barrel: Democrats block oil exploration in ANWR.

2006 -- Oil at $75 a barrel: Democrats block US companies from drilling off the coasts of the U.S.

2006 -- Oil at $75 a barrel: Democrat Pelosi helps block access to Gulf of Mexico 'natural gas' trove.

2008 -- Oil at $145 a barrel: Judge appointed by Democrat Bill Clinton blocks oil drilling in Michigan.

Last week House Speaker Nancy Pelosi claimed that "Drilling is a hoax! It's an absolute hoax!"

Historically, the energy policy differences between the two parties are clear:

• For ANWR Exploration -- GOP: 91%; Democrats: 14%.

• For Coal-to-Liquid -- GOP: 97%; Democrats: 22%.

• For Oil Shale Exploration -- GOP: 90%; Democrats: 14%.

• For Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) Exploration -- GOP: 81%; Democrats: 17%.

• For Refinery Increased Capacity -- GOP: 97%; Democrats: 4%. - Energy Policy Timeline
 
256Tree
      ID: 441112414
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 15:36
sometimes, folks just don't get it. LOL

"ANWR? Fuhgedaboud ANWAR.


well, folks like you, obviously. i suppose the absurdity of someone driving a Hummer - something that gets about 14 mpg - complaining about gas prices, is lost on you.

and then you come back with something not terribly related to the irony of the situation. not shocking, i suppose.

i do like the selective outrage of your post. it's par for the course for a sheep. baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

your post also shows a lack of reality, as it's relatively common knowledge that drilling in ANWR won't have a significant impact on the reduction of prices.

heck, exploratory drilling has shown that there is even less likely oil than originally thought. it's not really going to be much more than a literal drop in the bucket, yet you want to harp on them - once again, missing the idiocy of one of your favorite sons, Allen West.
 
257Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 15:40
Heh. So you believe that very slightly increasing the amount of crude oil produced in the United States (through ANWR) would have offset the many other factors which caused crude oil prices to rise?

Wake up!
 
258Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 21:19
Heh, I agreed with Sarge previously that the futures market plays a big role, but that doesn't let democrats off the hook. The futures market responds to democrat obstructionism at every turn in the road to more domestic oil production, and far more so than an admittedly self-fulfilling property of the market itself.
 
259Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 23:25
“Somehow,” Chu said, “we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe.”

Obama took one look at that, fell in love, and hired Steven Chu as his Energy Secretary.
 
260Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 08:32
“Somehow,” Chu said, “we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe.”

Obama took one look at that, fell in love, and hired Steven Chu as his Energy Secretary.


like the way you're in love with lying and dishonesty and believe your god is ok with that?

from this article, the truth:

"Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe," Mr. Chu, who directs the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California, said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal in September.

But Mr. Obama has dismissed the idea of boosting the federal gasoline tax, a move energy experts say could be the single most effective step to promote alternative energies and temper demand. Mr. Obama said Sunday that a heightened gas tax would be a "mistake" because it would put "additional burdens on American families right now."
 
261Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 10:26
Post #255. Rack it.

You should re-post that in some other threads. The liberals here may pooh-pooh it, but it is devastating to Democrats whining about high gas prices.
 
262Tree
      ID: 34144259
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 10:46
but it is devastating to Democrats

as are most of the other lies and inaccuracies repeated over and over again. truth is no longer important for many on the Right.
 
263Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 12:56
obstructionism at every turn in the road to more domestic oil production

Not true.

After declining to levels not seen since the 1940s, U.S. crude production began rising again in 2009. Drilling rigs have rushed into the nation's oil fields, suggesting a surge in domestic crude is on the horizon.

The number of rigs in U.S. oil fields has more than quad­rupled in the past three years to 1,272, according to the Baker Hughes rig count. Including those in natural gas fields, the United States now has more rigs at work than the entire rest of the world.

"It's staggering," said Marshall Adkins, who directs energy research for the financial services firm Raymond James. "If we continue growing anywhere near that pace and keep squeezing demand out of the system, that puts you in a world where we are not importing oil in 10 years."

There are doubts that energy independence is that close. But many say the booming shale oil fields in Texas and North Dakota and the growth of deep-water drilling in the Gulf of Mexico will allow the nation to cut its reliance on oil imports significantly over the next couple of decades.

Last month, the U.S. Energy Information Administration upgraded its forecast of crude production in 2025 to 6.4 million barrels per day - 1 million barrels more than were pumped in 2010.

link
 
264Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 13:25
Shh. You'll ruin B7's day.
 
265Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 17:46
It takes six years to bring the first drop of oil from a deep sea rig to market.

It will take two more years before the offshore drilling Bush finally got passed thru congress finally hits the market and none of the offshore rigs selling today are doing it because of anything Obama did.

When liberals try to kill domestic drilling they inflate this lead time to ten years.

Obama's actions sent
a lot of the world's deep sea oil rigs to Africa and Brazil and away from USA waters.

My understanding is that oil rigs are more powerful now days and it only takes three years to bring a land based rig's oil from startup to market. Again Obama has no role in the oil currently coming to market.

Anyone who believes Obama ever has any intention of increasing domestic oil production is living in an election year rhetorical dream world.
 
266Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 121512516
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 17:51
Shh. You will ruin Mith's day
 
267Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 18:06
Heh. Two days ago, Boldwin was proclaiming that Democrats are barriers to drilling. When found to be false, the tune is changed to "Obama can't take credit for that!"

Despite, of course, that Obama isn't.

What Obama has done is open up drilling, and renewed leases to continue drilling. Neither of which the Far Right will talk about because it confuses the meme of "Obama hates drilling."

 
268Mith
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 18:12
You will ruin Mith's day

Ha! Don't fret for me NG, it takes a lot more than unsourced gibberish.
 
269Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 26, 2012, 21:41
Lies, all lies.

Obama has not encouraged oil drilling anywhere. Except in Brazil.

It's hard to discourage drilling in the Bakken where it's pretty easy to hit a paying well now that they've broken the code...

...but Obama isn't interested in Bakken drilling.

Just ask Herold Hamm.
One of 13 children born to sharecroppers who never owned a single piece of land. Lacking the money to attend college as a teenager, he took a job pumping gas and repairing cars in Enid, Oklahoma.

Today Harold Hamm is a billionaire. The CEO of Continental Resources, the 14th largest oil company in America. Thanks to his tenacity, his pioneering spirit, and his ingenuity, he helped discover the Bakken oil fields in Montana and North Dakota…fields that contain as much as 24 billion barrels of oil, twice the size of the oil reserves in Prudhoe Bay, Alaska.

And thanks to him, North Dakota has the lowest unemployment rate of any state in the nation.
And neither Obama or the nanny state had anything to do with it.

Obama is so happy about Bakken drilling that he sued Hamm's oil drilling company over the death of a single common sparrow sized migratory bird...also known as three swings of a wind turbine.
the maximum penalty for each charge under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act is six months in prison and a $15,000 fine...“This shouldn’t happen in America,” Hamm told the WSJ, adding that it shows the current administration is “is out to get us.”
Well Obama had a chance to congratulate Hamm and discuss 'encouraging domestic oil production', open up drilling, in the immortal words of PD.
When it was Mr. Hamm’s turn to talk briefly with President Obama, “I told him of the revolution in the oil and gas industry and how we have the capacity to produce enough oil to enable America to replace OPEC. I wanted to make sure he knew about this.”

The president’s reaction? “He turned to me and said, ‘Oil and gas will be important for the next few years. But we need to go on to green and alternative energy. [Energy] Secretary [Steven] Chu has assured me that within five years, we can have a battery developed that will make a car with the equivalent of 130 miles per gallon.’” Mr. Hamm holds his head in his hands and says, “Even if you believed that, why would you want to stop oil and gas development? It was pretty disappointing.”

Washington keeps “sticking a regulatory boot at our necks and then turns around and asks: ‘Why aren’t you creating more jobs,’” he says.
Can you imagine the level of hostility to oil drilling that it would take to snub one of the biggest potential campaign cash donators in the country? Can you imagine hearing that America could replace OPEC in the next ten years and going reflexively negative?

Alaska? Did we already forget #255?
Shell Oil Company has announced it must scrap efforts to drill for oil this summer in the Arctic Ocean off the northern coast of Alaska. The decision comes following a ruling by the EPA’s Environmental Appeals Board to withhold critical air permits. The move has angered some in Congress and triggered a flurry of legislation aimed at stripping the EPA of its oil drilling oversight.

Shell has spent five years and nearly $4 billion dollars on plans to explore for oil in the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas. The leases alone cost $2.2 billion.

ANWR, I know, I know ten years is an eternity. Fugedaboudit.
Offshore? Did we forget that it took Bush years to get congress to open up offshore drilling and that Obama reversed all that over Deepwater Horizon?

Oh, but he's recently announced that he's relaxing opposition to offshore leases?

It's only lack of familiarity with the oil business that allows the voting public to be fooled by this shell game.

You also need a permit and between Deep Water Horizon and May, 2011 there was a total of ONE offshore permit issued. Ooooh Katy-bar-the-door...here comes the offshore oil bonanza.

Oh but back to thos leases...Why did Obama have to reverse course? How much of a reversal would it take?
“Under the Obama administration’s management, revenue from our offshore lease sale program has gone from $10 billion to nothing in just three years,” Vitter said. “Revenue cannot be generated from sales that do not happen, and jobs cannot be created on leases that private industry cannot acquire. We’re in a severe fiscal crisis and we’re facing significant economic challenges related to job creation, yet the administration continues to neglect our offshore resources.”

In fiscal year (FY) 2008 revenue from bonus bids on offshore leases was approximately $10 billion, but for FY 2011 that amount is down to $0, according to Vitter’s letter. “Revenue cannot be generated from lease sales that do not occur, and jobs cannot be created on leases that private industry cannot acquire,” he continued.

Unless, the administration reverses course, Vitter anticipates “long-term economic impacts that include lose jobs, lost royalties and lost rental fees.” Companies will be reticent to own a lease if they cannot be reasonably certain that exploration plans or permits will be approved, he added.

Daniel Kish, senior vice-president of policy with the Institute for Energy Research (IER), sees an “opportunity cost” for the Gulf region that may not be recaptured anytime soon.

The Obama administration has virtually put a stop to energy development in federal waters,” Kish said. “This is like planting seeds, if the government won’t allow to the seeds to be planted now, they are preventing future production. We are talking about a lost generation of economic activity.” - Sen. David Vitter (R-La.)
So what's left?

Well high oil prices have led to more incentive to drill. Thanks for the higher oil prices, Obama. */sarc*

One insanely large and easy new oil field even Obama hasn't figured out how to slow down, the Bakken, and another just as big that Obama won't even let us touch in the Green River Colorado area. Natural gas reserves to last a century so there's that. We can always convert cars to natural gas BTW. And Alaska which you can't get a permit past the EPA. And the Gulf of Mexico which is the easiest most plentiful offshore oil on the planet but try getting to it with this crew in charge.

Oh but Obama is soooo 'All-Of-The-Above' in his election literature only.

Just in case domestic oil producers missed Obama's drift, he's proposed...
to raise $40 billion of taxes on oil and gas—by excluding those industries from credits that go to all domestic manufacturers—is also a major hindrance to exploration and drilling.

“I’ve seen these things come about before, like [Jimmy] Carter’s windfall profits tax.” He says America’s rig count on active wells went from 4,500 to less than 55 in a matter of months. “That was a dumb idea. Thank God, Reagan got rid of that.”

 
270Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Feb 26, 2012, 22:04
another just as big that Obama won't even let us touch in the Green River Colorado area.

Lies, all lies. There is extensive drilling in the Green River corridor, which, btw, is in Utah, not Colorado, except for about a 30 mile stretch in the far NW corner of Colorado below Flaming Gorge Dam, an area I have floated two of the past three years.

 
272sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Feb 26, 2012, 22:15
You just dont get it do you B? Oil, WILL run out. It WILL, go the way of the do-do bird. And if we continue, year after year after year after year, to base our energy policy upon it....so too will we.
 
273Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Feb 26, 2012, 22:15
Here's the map
 
274Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Feb 26, 2012, 22:57
For those interested, here's the relief map.

The Green River is the main river flowing south in the eastern part of the state. From the Wyoming border at the north, you can see it flows into Colorado, then right back into Utah, where it meets up with the Colorado River about 3/4 of the way down the state.
If you were to superimpose the drilling map over thiis one, you'd see how massive the oil and gas drilling is in the Green River corridor. To say that Obama won't even let us touch in the Green River Colorado area is another instance of terminal laziness and ignorance, when a minimal amount of research could have avoided presenting such blatant misinformation. Making a mockery of conservatism one post at a time.

 
275Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Feb 26, 2012, 23:26
Drill baby drill. And call Democrats "liars."

This sums up the GOP's energy policy.

Forgot--mocking efforts to wean us off oil and gas. Because their puppetmasters said it to be so.
 
276Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Feb 26, 2012, 23:28
Its all just so funny--they simply can't take the fact that their lies are exposed, so they double down on the hatred. And more lying.
 
277Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 26, 2012, 23:42
Well actually it's Colorado, Utah and Wyoming but let's just make every post into an comprehensive encyclopedia entry.

BTW you are aware Google reaches out west even if you wave your arms?
A 2005 USGS report (pdf) claims that the world has 2.82 trillion barrels of shale oil, of which 1.46 trillion barrels - over half - is in Utah's Green River formation. - Daily Kos
Well Daily Kos thinks the Green River area makes for great wind and solar instead.

How about Obama?
US Geological Survey estimates that Green River Formation contains about 3 trillion barrels of oil, about half of it recoverable, depending on available technology and economic conditions. Equals entire world’s proven oil reserves. - Anu K. Mittal, GAO 11-929T, Testimony to House Subcommittee on Energy and Mineral Resources, Committee on Natural Resources, 8/24/11
Obama recruited his Interior Secretary Ken Salazar from Colorado so you just know Obama is all over this treasure of a national resource.

Well actually what he did was propose 18 new conservation zones prohibiting oil drilling in places all over Colorado.

 
278Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 26, 2012, 23:52
 
279sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 01:54
from 277:

A 2005 USGS report (pdf) claims that the world has 2.82 trillion barrels of shale oil

also from 277:

US Geological Survey estimates that Green River Formation contains about 3 trillion barrels of oil

Sooo, does the Green River contain more oil than the entire world, or is one or the other report just w-r-o-n-g?
 
280Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 01:59
Off the cuff that's prolly comparing proven apples to estimated oranges.
 
281Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 02:13
So here's how it works in practice.

Bush had already established expedited oil and gas drilling provisions called categorical exclusions on federal lands nationwide...to encourage American oil and natural gas development where the impact is minimal and/or where environmental analysis has already been conducted.

Ken Salazar's Interior Dept. ignores the law anyway and denies this oil exploration.

Federal judge slaps down the Interior Dept.

The Dept. had claimed that they hadn't injured the oil companies. The federal judge said, “Those injuries are supported by the administrative record.”

Indeed.

Tell me again how eager Obama is to see drilling.

 
282Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 02:29
Well, OK. But only if you promise to listen this time, and not try for single, anecdotal stories to try to overcome the wealth of numbers which overwhelm your thesis:

Obama presides over record number of oil rigs.

Lifted deepwater oil drilling Including permits to BP for exploratory drilling of a new, deeper well.

In 2010, the US produced more oil than since 2003.

None of this would be the case if the Far Right's version of Obama were even remotely true. Far from clamping down on oil drilling, Obama clearly is including oil and gas as part of a larger energy policy.
 
283Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 02:41
See the funny thing is that if you raise the price of gasoline because you hate hate hate fossil fuels with the white hot heat of a thousand suns...

...people will risk those tens of thousands of dollar fines and six months in prison for a bird found in your pond, and put up with the years of EPA/Interior Dept hassles, and drill more anyway if the prospects are good.

Even radical Obama isn't as great a force of nature as supply and demand.
 
284Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 02:48
LOL.
 
285Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 02:51
And given your complete lack of the ability to grasp lag time I am warning you right now, I don't want to hear complaint one during the entire next four year republican presidency about there only being one new offshore oil drilling start.
 
286Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 09:30
right. we get it.

everyone here has a complete inability to grasp the concepts on which you are an expert, which is everything under the sun.

oh, and everything is the fault of democrats. and liberals.

you're like one of those old dolls where you pull the string in the back, and it says something. and there's usually only four or five things that are said, and then it goes back on repeat. forever.
 
287Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 11:17
Bush had already established expedited oil and gas drilling provisions called categorical exclusions on federal lands nationwide...to encourage American oil and natural gas development where the impact is minimal and/or where environmental analysis has already been conducted.

Ken Salazar's Interior Dept. ignores the law anyway and denies this oil exploration.


Similar to the Alberta oil sands issue(wall to wall lakes. One more holding pond is no...big...deal.) we have a case of either intentionally dishonest or stunningly ignorant..or both. You really should do some homework before spewing out such obvious misinformation, and further embarrassing yourself.

Salazar is not denying oil exploration. Your picture in #278 and claim in #277 that 3 trillion barrels of oil, about half of it recoverable, about half of it recoverable, depending on available technology and economic conditions is discussing oil shale, and the key phrase is depending on available technology.

I would suggest reading these two articles before making any further comments.

link

link

There is continuous testing going on seeking ways to economically and realistically bring this product to market. From the 1st link:

Traditionally, the shale has been surface mined like coal and heated until an oil-like substance called kerogen turns to liquid and oozes out. But this is an expensive, energy-hungry, and carbon-intensive approach that, like much of the extraction happening in Canada's controversial oil sands, is also devastating to the local environment.

You've made it quite clear that you could care less about devastation to the local environment(actually you revel in it, then have the gall to say is this just another argument in their[liberals] effort to destroy civilization?

Concerning this issue, we're not talking about the local environment of Northwestern Colorado and Northeastern Utah. We're talking about the Colorado River and its subsidiaries(like the Green River)which is already a river stressed by serving tens of millions as the major water supply for the metroplitan areas of Las Vegas, Phoenix, Tucson, San Diego and Los Angeles as well as agricultural entities in Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Nevada, Arizona, and, especially, California. Additionally, there are plans on the table for a

Flaming Gorge to Denver water pipeline(fortunately denied but not dead) a Lake Powell to St George water pipeline(paid for by raising the Utah state sales tax) as well as a nuclear power plant in Green River, Utah.

Where is the water going to come from to develop 1.3 trillion barrels of oil from shale that requires, depending on the technology, massive amounts of water. A Lake Michigan to Grand Junction pipeline perhaps? If so, I can only hope that pipeline runs through your backyard.
 
288boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 11:33
Where is the water going to come from to develop 1.3 trillion barrels of oil from shale that requires, depending on the technology, massive amounts of water. A Lake Michigan to Grand Junction pipeline perhaps? If so, I can only hope that pipeline runs through your backyard.

get use to that idea, lake powell is already being drained by the rising population of the southwest and Ogallala Aquifer is being drained by the farmers of the mid-west. So water is going to have to come from somewhere whether it is for fracking for oil or to drink.
 
289Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 15:48
For the wealth of Saudi Arabia in an oil starved land, they'll solve it.

And most likely well before the sun powers civilization affordably.

If you weren't wasting my tax money I'd recommend all you libs go buy some dinosaur pre-breakthru solar power for yourselves tho.
 
290Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 16:19


Obama before becoming president and hiring people who strategized how to drive gas prices to european levels, possibly as high as $10/gal.
 
291Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 16:51
Every dime we spend building solar panels before then is a complete waste of money in the middle of a depression.

Have just a teeny bit of patience.
 
292DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 17:09
Apparently, lag time only applies to oil wells and not to any other form of technological development. Good to know.
 
293Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 17:28
Every dime we spend building solar panels before then is a complete waste of money in the middle of a depression

??

The link you provide is about the fact that solar power will eventually become much more efficient. This has nothing to do, really, with backing up your point.

In fact, there are plenty of reasons to build solar panels now. Besides keeping people employed, there is the little matter of that we won't get to the super efficient panels without building the most efficient ones we have right now.

Your point is similar to saying, in 1983, that we shouldn't be building personal computers because they are eventually going to be super fast.
 
294Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 17:33
*rub eyes in disbelief*

If you could buy a piggybank today that only gave you 50 cents back for every dollar you put in...

...or you could save your money and buy one tomorrow that gave you back $1.50 for every dollar you put in...

...you'd squander your money, and leave yourself with no money to buy the good one.

Typical liberal 'thinking'.
 
295DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 17:51
At least we can do math.
 
296sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 17:51
who develops the one,m that gives back the $1.50, when the one that exists now isnt being bought? The product, would not be advanced under your thinking Boldwin, but abandoned.
 
297Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 01:51
There is abundant research in battery and solar cells. It is promising research. It is science with a lot of new tools to work with and breakthrus already made, ready to polish. It is not limited to Obama's list of failed manufacturers.

And let's go easy on Solyndra and their fellow crony capitalists. They expected with good reason that Obama would sabotage the price of gas until their product was market viable.

But again, that research belongs in Darpa and universities and battery companies and hundreds of prudent companies in it for the long haul who didn't gamble, and get into bed with Obama and take his carrot.
 
298Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 02:41
that Obama would sabotage the price of gas

You should go on tour with these jokes.

You don't understand gas prices. Capitalism. Or generational product development.

You're right that research (backed, of course, by government grants and tax breaks) into solar research continues. You are wrong to think that such research is helped by products not coming to market.
 
299Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 04:12
You are wrong to think that such research is helped by rushing unfinished snake oil to market.

Wait for the real deal and drill baby drill in the meantime.
 
300Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 14:05
Well actually it's Colorado, Utah and Wyoming but let's just make every post into an comprehensive encyclopedia entry.

BTW you are aware Google reaches out west even if you wave your arms?


I don't need to google and you would be wiser if you opened your thought process to attempt to understand just how comprehensive my knowledge is regarding this area and the subject of oil shale extraction.

My former co-worker and friend for 26 years, Steve Evans, owns KVEL Radio in Vernal, Utah.

Steve’s Broadcast Career began in 1985. He has experience working in markets like Salt Lake City, Springfield Mo, Albuquerque N.M., Wichita Ks, and Saint George Utah. Since 1994 Steve has raised a family and lived in Vernal and is proud to call North Eastern Utah home. A Regan Republican since 1980, Steve is a champion of conservative values both social and political. Holding firm to these values in business has been a philosophy that has served KVEL and the communities it serves well. Weekday mornings with co-host Lincoln Brown from 6 to 8 on AM 920 KVEL.

Last summer, after a few days camping and jet skiing at Flaming Gorge, I spent the night in Vernal and had dinner with Steve. Back in 2005, Steve tried to convince me to go to work for him in sales and broadcasting, but Vernal is just a bit too remote for me.
Steve convinced me to guest on his radio show the following morning. One of the main subjects was the oil shale issue. It's important to remember that Vernal's economic growth is almost totally dependent of the energy industry, although farming, ranching and tourism play a steady role.
You would probably be astonished at the diverse opinions of these staunch conservatives when it comes to talk of Saudi-type extractions of oil in their backyard.
Most callers, like Steve, were avid outdoorsmen, who hunt, fish, camp, 4-wheel, snowmobile and recreate in this unique area. Almost to a man callers were opposed to fullscale degradation of the rivers, mountains, canyons and forests that would inevitably occur if the extraction industries were allowed to conduct their operations on the scale necessary to produce over a trillion barrels of oil. Farmers and ranchers complained that they barely had enough water to survive as it is, much less having to further deplete the Green, White and Yampa Rivers on their way to the Colorado.

Yeah, they all hate Obama, hate liberals, hate gays, hate abortion, hate the government. And they love that their town, which has boomed and busted numerous times over the years, is currently experiencing a boom thanks to the increased activity in energy production. But even at these levels, there's griping about transient oil workers getting liquored up in town, fighting, driving drunk and associated issues that small town Mormons feel invades their space. There's griping about the lack of infrastructure to house and accomodate tens of thousands more workers, more heavy duty trucks and such. As it is you can't get a motel room in Vernal(had to camp outside town that night)and the outskirts of town are becoming littered with unsightly mobile homes and thrown together manufactured housing. As we've seen in Williston, ND, apartment rates have skyrocketed in Vernal, pricing lifelong residents out of their homes. To top it all of, some Vernal residents are pissed because a huge number of these transient workers first(and sometimes only) language is Spanish. One caller actually said "Imagine multplying the current number of Mexicans by a few thousand, they'll take over the town!!"

So the next time you want to get smug with me about an issue where your knowledge is dwarfed in real terms, don't bother. Just know that even the Drill!Baby!Drill! crowd isn't all in your corner when it comes to the environs who are most affected by your dreams of destroying their civilization.

 
301Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 14:22
Just know that even the Drill!Baby!Drill! crowd isn't all in your corner

Yeah, I just read Ken Salazar use that line. "Y'know even some republicans... [have bought my line that if you are a hiker you are being shortchanged, fisherman/shortchanged etc].

And you already know why, and you don't know you know.

As far as he's concerned those aren't even part of the USA. Clinton gave them away already. He thinks those lands belong to the UN and he's already started the delphi technique public buy-in meetings to get people to think they agreed to it.

"We'll collect your opinions, sort thru them and tell you what the consensus was at the next meeting, no you may not check our math."

Yes even some republicans think we should leave the wealth of Saudi Arabia in the ground while we pay $10/gal at the pump.

Sure they do. Were you actually at the local meeting? So what?
 
302Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 14:26
BTW even I don't want a nuke plant exactly in my back yard.

You still don't get to lump me in with the anti-nuke crowd.
 
303Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 14:28
#301 translated

"You can't expect me to try and comprehend life in real terms when I'm completely absorbed in thinking how brilliant I am."
 
304Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 14:40
Dude, I am seriously looking into moving to the Bakken oil fields, specifically the southern undeveloped end. As soon as my dad dies and doesn't need me here anymore I am so outta Illinois.

Yes I've read about the exact concerns you mentioned. Small towns not yet over-run and worried about change. Well that's what you hate about conservatives. They don't love change as much as you.

You really believe they'd vote just to let S.Dakota Bakken [or the entire Green River Basin oil play as another example] go untouched just because they have a touch of NIMBY?

Get real. It's quite a drive to just about anywhere out there and $5-$10 gasoline may seem like a fun teachable moment to you, but it's a punch in the gut to them.
 
305Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 14:50
we should leave the wealth of Saudi Arabia in the ground while we pay $10/gal at the pump.

Can we get something straight here?

Saudi Arabia - stick a pipe in a sand dune and out comes sweet crude, pipe it a few miles to the Persian Gulf, put it on a tanker and send it around the world.

Green River formation oil shale - Depending on the technology, either strip mine millions of acres of remote mountainous areas, leaving essential water supplies for 30 million people in jeopardy, or
freeze the water around a shale deposit, and then heat up the contents within the deposit. It’s energy-intensive. And it’s a lot of work. What’s more, there’s no proof yet it can work on a commercial scale.

Anyway you look at it, you'll be paying $10 a gallon for gas from Colorado/Utah oil shale.

You've been played into believing those Saudi wealth pipe dreams. But then, since you obviously haven't properly researched the issue, you're not hard to play.



 
306Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 14:55
BTW this is a sneaky thing the way the globalists from both sides of the combine cooperate.

The UN globalists on the right argue these should be local decisions, not left in the hands of the evil distant eastern power elite who don't understand and sympathize with western concerns, and then the local lefty globalists go to work convincing the locals it might be fine elsewhere but NIMBY at least.

And the anti-UN crowd loses, the anti-big government crowd loses, private property loses, the poor get hit the hardest at the gas pump.
 
307Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 15:04
Anyway you look at it, you'll be paying $10 a gallon for gas from Colorado/Utah oil shale.

Yeah yeah yeah, there are thirty different approaches being developed to raise the yield on Oil Shale extraction so it obviously isn't a mature industry. I've read it all before.

Either entertain me with the story of how different Bakken Shale is from Green River Shale...

...or I'll merely point out Bakken oil producers manage to make a profit at $100 a gal and provide us gasoline.

Yeah, the water is a headache. They'll get the easy half anyway.
 
308Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 15:05
#306 translated

"In lieu of an intelligent response relevant to the subject, I'll spew my normal nonsense in hopes of baffling with bullshit."
 
309Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 15:08
Oops, $100 a barrel of course.
 
310Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 15:25

how different Bakken Shale is from Green River Shale...


I suggest a look at a topographical map. Let's see.. 10,000 ft mountain ranges with virtually no roads and steep canyon walls and not a drop of water in sight
versus flat high prairie with an abundant water supply from the Missouri River and numerous tributaries where heavy duty vehicles can easily access production fields and deliver product to market. The term DUH comes to mind.
 
311Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 15:35
Good grief.

There is nothing there that would price Green River shale out of the market.

Ya'know, the oil shale you told me was already developed in post #273-274?
 
312Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 15:55
Ya'know, the oil shale you told me was already developed in post #273-274?

Those are traditional oil and natural gas wells, which, is of course, the easy stuff. The current oil shale projects are very limited and mostly for test.

Notice any difference here?


Green River formation terrain


Bakken terrain
 
313Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 16:06
Interesting.

You countered my magnificent post #269 by pretending to find a tiny flaw in one tangent. The administration really weren't obstructing Green River Basin oil shale development after all. Why look, they're all over Utah.

Except you now admit 50 posts later when all is forgotten, that your counter was really a map of traditional oil wells, not shale oil fracking wells.

And Sarge goes off all over the forum about how PV is wiping the place with me. Sheesh. It's easy to feel you've got the mo, when you've got 8:1 numbers, Sarge. Even when you've got nuthin'.
 
314Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 16:33
Boldwin,
You claimed,

One insanely large and easy new oil field even Obama hasn't figured out how to slow down, the Bakken, and another just as big that Obama won't even let us touch in the Green River Colorado area.

I responded that there was lots of oil and gas production in the Green River area(oil field?). There has been for decades, but now more than ever. There is also some oil shale production going on to a much lesser degree. The reason oil shale in the area isn't producing the magical Saudi-type results has virtually nothing to do with Obama.
It has mostly to do with a technology that is still in the experimental stage and logistics inherent with an environment that makes bringing that product to market cost prohibitive.

how PV is wiping the place with me

I wish I could take credit, but it's more a case of Boldwin embarrassing himself for bringing up a subject he has little grasp of, resorting to nonsense about The UN globalists, then patting himself on the back for my magnificent post #269

Since when is lying magnificent?



 
315Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 17:24
You really aren't following along.

It's oil shale. The same technique that works in Bakken works there. The market price of oil is the same. It comes in at a profit. It's big. Saudi big. They are indeed trying to rope it all off from production.

The only lying going on is your denial. And you don't know anything more about Green River oil shale than PD does about Marcellus natural gas.
 
316Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 17:28
#315

Complete and total failure. If you refuse to be educated, that's certainly your perogative....but it sure ain't magnificent.
 
317Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 17:52
There is a surprising amount of successful Green River formation oil shale extraction...Dispite Ken Salazar's best efforts to reverse course.

This all the while libs here deny Obama is obstructing oil drilling and in fact is claimed to be successfully expanding it.
 
318Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 18:12
Numbers don't lie. No matter how you try to spin it.

You should be asking yourself how important your point is to you, when the facts show otherwise. A wise person would silently drop it, and move on to points they can actually make without ignoring the data on the topic.
 
319Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 18:25
The same technique that works in Bakken works there.



OK, Here's why it's a total failure.

Bakken extraction technique


Water is mixed with sand and some chemicals and then pumped at high pressure into the well bore to shatter the Bakken shale formation, which can be as hard as a driveway. The “fracking” creates fissures that free up trapped oil and natural gas to flow up to the well bore.

The Green River oil shale is completely different. There is no trapped oil to flow anywhere. The oil is actually part of the rock.
Had the links in #287 actually been read, well, didn't even need to read the links, as I capsulized it:

Traditionally, the shale has been surface mined like coal and heated until an oil-like substance called kerogen turns to liquid and oozes out.

The new SITU technique as described in the 2nd link:

the In-situ Conversion Process (ICP) accelerates this natural process of oil and gas maturation by literally tens of millions of years. This is accomplished by slow sub-surface heating of petroleum source rock containing kerogen, the precursor to oil and gas. This acceleration of natural processes is achieved by drilling holes into the resource, inserting electric resistance heaters into those heater holes and heating the subsurface to around 650-700F, over a 3 to 4 year period.

“During this time, very dense oil and gas is expelled from the kerogen and undergoes a series of changes. These changes include the shearing of lighter components from the dense carbon compounds, concentration of available hydrogen into these lighter compounds, and changing of phase of those lighter, more hydrogen rich compounds from liquid to gas.

In gaseous phase, these lighter fractions are now far more mobile and can move in the subsurface through existing or induced fractures to conventional producing wells from which they are brought to the surface. The process results in the production of about 65 to 70% of the original “carbon” in place in the subsurface.

“The ICP process is clearly energy-intensive, as its driving force is the injection of heat into the subsurface.
However, for each unit of energy used to generate power to provide heat for the ICP process, when calculated on a life cycle basis, about 3.5 units of energy are produced and treated for sales to the consumer market. This energy efficiency compares favorably with many conventional heavy oil fields that for decades have used steam injection to help coax more oil out of the reservoir. The produced hydrocarbon mix is very different from traditional crude oils. It is much lighter and contains almost no heavy ends.


“However, because the ICP process occurs below ground, special care must be taken to keep the products of the process from escaping into groundwater flows. Shell has adapted a long recognized and established mining and construction ice wall technology to isolate the active ICP area and thus accomplish these objectives and to safe guard the environment. For years, freezing of groundwater to form a subsurface ice barrier has been used to isolate areas being tunneled and to reduce natural water flows into mines. Shell has successfully tested the freezing technology and determined that the development of a freeze wall prevents the loss of contaminants from the heated zone.”

The same technique that works in Bakken works there.

I don't think we can chalk that statement up to intentionally dishonest, so stunningly ignorant, especially when I had previously provided the information must apply.

you don't know anything more about Green River oil shale than PD does about Marcellus natural gas

Could be, but you apparently are happy knowing nothing about it.














 
320Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 16:06
You have no idea how much googling I've done and the in depth industry sites I've delved into...

When I read industry sites explain,
When kerogen cooks out of the Bakken shale it experiences an intense volumetric increase of about 114 to 170 percent,” Stockton said. “There’s great energy stored in that volume increase and it wants to fracture the rock, mainly along bedding planes.”
I don't see the difference. That doesn't tell me, 'Oh Bakken oil is much easier, it's right on top and you just have to crack the shale.' No. It says kerogen cooks out of the Bakken shale, it is part of the shale in both cases and has to be removed by heat in both cases. Now I will admit I have finally run into the term 'Kerogen Maturity' buried in 200 page PDF's. I do not know if there is some mystery there that rescues your position. I will also admit I've always wondered why I've never run into the ice wall process as part of the Bakken production. That doesn't mean there is any difference between Bakken shale and GR shale either. I assumed it had to do with unique formation details relative to aquafers. But again there are thirty different techniques to get kerogen from shale.

From what I've seen Bakken shale production isn't so much easier than Green River that it just takes fracking. It also uses heat. For example in situ internal combustion pyrolysis. Reactive fluids. Electro-fracking. In one process they use explosives and then start a controlled fire underground. All that is Bakken extraction.
The Green River oil shale is completely different. There is no trapped oil to flow anywhere. - PV
This is still entirely in your own words. Blockquote me something from an industry site that explains it that way.

...The difference between shales still hasn't been clearly explained in any industry site I've personally found or seen linked to here and if you had all this down previously you would have been explaining the difference between Colorado shale and Bakken Shale a long time ago in this thread.
 
321Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 07:06
PV

You've had 6 days to google, PV.

Weren't you going to entertain me some more with your private theory on trapped oil in the Bakken?

I can't find that theory anywhere else and I wouldn't want to be stunningly ignorant or anything.
 
322Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 12:12
your private theory on trapped oil in the Bakken

What private theory?

The answer is the next sentence from your link in #320, which is curiously omitted:

He noted that the horizontal fractures can be a huge factor in terms of where the reservoir is and where it’s best.

Also from your link:

In early 2009, Vector Seismic formed a consortium to evaluate the seismic signature of fractured reservoirs in the Middle Bakken. This ultimately led the company to determine that differences in the seismic image of shear waves over producing wells vs. dry holes in the Bakken formation are key for drilling success.

key word - reservoir

In the Utah/Colorado shale, there is no where the reservoir is on the huge scale you insist has Saudi potential. Sure, there exists these features in the formation, but they're considered more traditional drilling. The shale under discussion has to be heated out of the rock in order to create a reservoir. And please show me where in the Bakken they are, as explained in my #319, drilling holes into the resource, inserting electric resistance heaters into those heater holes and heating the subsurface to around 650-700F, over a 3 to 4 year period.

Please show me where in the Bakken they are using ice wall technology...freezing of groundwater to form a subsurface ice barrier has been used to isolate areas being tunneled and to reduce natural water flows into mines.

Back to your link in #320, we learn that there's different techniques used even in different sections of the Bakken, depending on the soil and rock:

The widespread Upper Devonian-Lower Mississippian Bakken formation is comprised of an upper and lower shale member and a mixed siliciclastic carbonate middle member, which is ordinarily referred to as a dolomitic sand or sandy dolomite.

This middle section is the target of the drill bits that ordinarily go down about 10,000 feet vertically before veering horizontally into the brittle dolomite, where multi-stage fracing is used to more efficiently produce the oil.


There's no "gotcha" in pointing out that heating and kerogen are involved in both areas. And it certainly doesn't detail the massive differences in topography between a remote, rugged, roadless, water-starved mountainous region and a flat, much less arid, farm-oriented region. Those topographical differences alone make the Bakken a more economical and much easier extraction process than the Green River formation.

Finally, one more item you conveniently ignored:

In the Klamath River dam removal controversy, you insist is a UN Agenda 21 plot to strip local farmers and ranchers of their freedoms, yet you have shown absolutely no concern for farmers and ranchers in the Bakken or Green River regions who are adversely affected by dreams of Saudi large extractions of energy that even the most ardent proponents admit will cause large scale degradation of their properties.





 
323Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 12:26
I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe there is anything different between Bakken and Green River shale except the relationship between the oil [kerogen] bearing formation and the ground water table and the deep water aquifer.

---

There is a huge difference between getting rich off leasing your farm to oil producers, and getting bankrupted off your farmland to save local populations of non-native salmon.

Not to mention there is a huge difference between deliberately destroying monumental existing sources of totally clean pollution-free power...which is the definition of batshit crazy, especially for the eco-conscious...

...and developing the USA into a bigger oil producer than the Saudis and becoming energy independent.
 
324Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 12:54
except the relationship between the oil [kerogen] bearing formation and the ground water table and the deep water aquifer.

And the reservoirs, all which lead to different techniques and all that show the Bakken fields to be much easier extraction areas than the Green River.

getting bankrupted off your farmland to save local populations of non-native salmon.

You have yet to show one example, so we'll chalk that up to unwarranted hysteria.






 
325Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 13:14
Without irrigation, it's a desert. You figure out what it meant to the farmers.
Over 1,400 farming families in the Klamath area were impacted by the water shut off.

Many lost their property through bankruptcy, some lost their livelihoods and many small

farmers had to give up agriculture, sell their farm and move away. - oregonstate.edu

Their fields have dried up, and some farmers have even lost their farms - ABC News
 
326Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 13:17
 
327Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 13:32
Boy, FOX had some good advice for people on this issue when they weren't reflexively anti-Obama for all problems in this country.
 
328Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 13:59
Liberals: the anti-science party
[An] artificially created regulatory crisis that has been imposed on the Upper Klamath basin.… In my entire professional career," he said, "I have never been involved in a decision-making process that was as closed, segregated, and poor as we now have in the Klamath basin. The constructive science-based processes I have been involved in elsewhere have involved an honest and open dialogue among people having scientific expertise. Hypotheses are developed, then rigorously tested against empirical evidence. None of those elements of good science characterize the decision-making process for the Klamath Project.
The pretext for the fiasco was to save the endanged longnosed suckerOne problem, it wasn't endangered.
In his testimony before Congress, Vogel sharply criticized the USFWS for its grossly unacceptable census of the sucker fish to justify its listing as an endangered species. He claimed that, “three years after the sucker listing, it also became apparent that the assumptions concerning the status of shortnose suckers and Lost River suckers in the Lost River/Clear Lake watershed were in error.” The more complete census in 1991 showed tens of thousands of these fish. Had that information been made public, the suckerfish may not have even been listed.
The next pretext was that the longnosed sucker needed high water levels.

One problem. Contrary to that [unscientific] recommendation, high water levels coincide with large fish kills.
“All the empirical evidence and material demonstrate that huge fish kills have occurred when Upper Klamath Lake was near average or above average elevations, but not at low elevations,” asserted Vogel. He even said he warned the USFWS that there would be huge fish kills if the Upper Klamath Lake elevations were maintained at higher than historical levels. That’s exactly what happened in 1971, 1986, 1995, 1996, and 1997.

In spite of this overwhelming scientific evidence, the NMFS recommend high lake levels to Judge Akin by “selectively reporting only information to support the agency’s concept of higher lake levels.”
Dishonestly they then used the fish kills they knowingly and deliberately caused to create hysteria to pass the recovery plan.

Another pretext was Coho Salmon
The plan also hinged on more reservoir water being released in the Klamath River to provide more water to the endangered Coho salmon during low water years. While this makes sense on the surface, the NAS report also found that: “water added as necessary to sustain higher flows in the main stem during dry years would need to come from reservoirs, and this water could equal or exceed the lethal temperatures for Coho salmon during the warmest months.” In other words, excessive release of the warm reservoir water could actually kill the salmon, not help them. Again, the recovery plan demanded action that is exactly the opposite of what the scientists knew to be true, and their actions actually put the salmon at much higher risk! The recovery plan did serve, however, to destroy property rights and people’s lives.
This anti-science, gaia worshiping religious hystera is by no means limited to Klamath Falls.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) also listed the most common turtle in all of India as endangered. But some activists somewhere probably needed a recovery plan more than they needed scientific honesty. A third of the recovery plans are based on no evidence of actual population levels.
There are presently 984 species listed as endangered by the USFWS, 976 of which have recovery plans.[xiv] The National Wilderness Institute conducted a study in which they found that over 306 of these recovery plans had “little to no hard information about the status of listed species.”
Gaia's religious zealots are not above fraud to further their agenda.
In the fall of 2001 the U.S. Forest Service found that seven federal and state wildlife biologists planted false evidence of a rare and threatened Canadian lynx [organized fraud - B] in the Wenatchee and Gifford Pinchot National Forests in the state of Washington. The three U.S. Forest Service, two U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and two Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife employees planted lynx fur on rubbing posts. The posts were installed to identify existence of the creatures in the two national forests as part of a lynx habitat study started in 1999. DNA testing of two of the samples matched that of a lynx living inside an animal preserve. The third DNA sample matched that of an escaped pet lynx being held in a federal office until its owner retrieved it.

Had the fraud gone undetected it would have closed roads to vehicles. They would have banned off-road vehicles, snowmobiles, skis and snowshoes, along with livestock grazing and tree thinning.
This is the sort of radicalized and politicized agency that needs to be scrapped and started over.
 
329Tree
      ID: 37226713
      Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 16:39
Baldwin's hero on homosexuality and gay marriage:

"I personally have deep convictions about my children having a financially stable country that they can live in,” Rep. Allen West (R-Fla.) said in an interview. “I want my daughters to have the opportunities that I had, and that’s what concerns me. That’s what keeps me up awake at night, not worrying about who’s sleeping with who."
 
330Tree
      ID: 543471212
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 13:50
of, course we've come to expect this sort of nonsense at this point, but nonetheless.

"I believe there's about 78 to 81 members of the Democratic Party that are members of the Communist Party."


there is nothing shocking that certain people on this forum throw their support behind the kind of people who want to divide this nation, and not unite it.
 
331Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 14:14
I don't see the big deal about that quote.
 
332Tree
      ID: 543471212
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 14:20
because if you're going to make a fear-mongering accusation such as that, you should back it up with facts?
 
333Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 14:55
You take that as a literal accusation?
 
334Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 14:58
It doesn't have to be a literal accusation for it to be a classless, baseless attack from West, but that's nothing new from West.
 
335Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 15:00
"IndyStar"


If you're among that 12 percent of the American public that looks at our dysfunctional and divided Congress and gives it a thumbs up, then I have the perfect political candidate for you.

His name is Richard Mourdock, and he proudly says that if he is elected to the U.S. Senate, he'll do what he can to deepen those partisan divides, which would only add to the dysfunction in Washington. When asked in an interview last week at The Indianapolis Star about the problems with partisan gridlock in Congress, he pushed back with this depressing bit of philosophy: "We need less bipartisanship in Congress."


Currently Mourdock is in a very tight race with the incumbent, Richard Luger. If Luger loses, I think the Republican's lose another Senate seat.

I'm guessing Boldwin would love Mourdock.
 
336Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 15:08
Got that right. Lugar is so out of touch with the republican base and Indiana for that matter that it could only be explained by his having started his senate career when Nixon was considered conservative and almost that long ago. Lugar is just a big city mayor who moved on to higher office and is hardly different than any other big city democrat machine candidate.
 
337Tree
      ID: 26371214
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 15:10
You take that as a literal accusation?

that matters how?

would we excuse it if Al Sharpton said "70 to 80 percent of white people hate blacks"?

it's an irresponsible and baseless attack on a group of people, and done to monger fear.
 
338Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 15:19
It's easily explainable. They are self-identified members of the 'Progressive Caucus' which is just code word for communist.
 
339Mith
      ID: 37838313
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 16:27
that matters how?

You said it's the kind of statement that should be backed up with facts, implying that you don't seem to realize it's satirical.

I don't recall Sharpton ever saying what you wrote, but do I recall Jesse Jackson comparing the Tea Party to the 19th century confederacy.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't accusing them of plotting a seperatist war to protect their right to legal human bondage. And I'm even more sure that you didn't run to this forum when you head about it.
 
340Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 16:34
Heh. Code words, indeed.
 
341Tree
      ID: 383281215
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 16:36
You said it's the kind of statement that should be backed up with facts, implying that you don't seem to realize it's satirical.

there is responsibility when placed in a position of a power. a statement like the one West made is irresponsible.

but do I recall Jesse Jackson comparing the Tea Party to the 19th century confederacy.

i had to look this up.

Jesse Jackson, Jr. actually made a similar statement to what you're saying, discussing Obama's job act. (at least this is what i'm guessing you're referring to, but an inane comment could have come from either Jackson)

Illinois Democratic Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr. told The Daily Caller on Wednesday that congressional opposition to the American Jobs Act is akin to the Confederate “states in rebellion.”

another irresponsible statement. because i didn't notice this one, i shouldn't bring attention to one i did notice?
 
342Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 17:10
Mith, how could you not take issue with a Congressman slandering his colleagues in public? When a citizen tries to bait a Representative with a slanderous question, the right thing to do is to dismiss the accusation and take the high road. West proved he has no interest in leading by lobbing meaningless epithets at the people he was elected to work with.
 
343Mith
      ID: 37838313
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 17:52
Razor
I don't think it's slander. I guess it's an epithet but I think there's a pretty clear difference. I think a demand that congressional reps only refer to one another in a cordial manner would be contrary to an awful lot of precedent. Don't get me wrong, I think West is a prick of the highest order, and a bully to boot. But this doesn't strike me as a noteworthy infraction.

Tree
That one will do, though I was actually referring to Rev. Jackson. I think I think tis is the quote I was thinking of.
 
344Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Apr 30, 2012, 15:48
West insults guests at event he attended, for "living it up."
 
345sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Mon, Apr 30, 2012, 15:55
He needs to look in the mirror, and reread this (slightly edited) paragraph, until it sinks in;

"While the President laughs and dines, our Constitutional Republic is eroding and my countrymen are suffering," West wrote. "In this election year, it is sad to think that some of those us who were sitting in that ballroom Saturday night laughing and living it up, are helping to perpetuate the manipulation and deception of our country."
 
346Seattle Zen
      ID: 47630913
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 17:47
Allen West for President? Hah! He's be lucky to simply win re-election!

Allen West may have more time to bully women he hates come January
Despite his celebrity and prodigious fund-raising, Mr. West, who announced he would run in a new district this year, faces a serious challenge in November. The question for Democrats is, Will Mr. West’s conservative stance and unbridled style pass muster with a new set of Florida voters in a swing district that is evenly split? In that race, Mr. West is likely to face Patrick Murphy, 30, a Democrat and political neophyte who is shaping up to be a potent force. Democrats are banking that in a presidential election year, Mr. West will fail to sway enough independent-minded voters to win in November. They view the newly created 18th Congressional District on the Treasure Coast as one of six possible Democratic gains in Florida. Impressed with Mr. Murphy’s fund-raising — he is one of the top fund-raisers among Democratic challengers in the country — the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee has put its financial and organizational strength behind him.
 
347Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 18:04
I guess Jeb Bush isn't helping Tea Party luminaries when it comes time to redraw the districts.

Big surprise, considering how the Tea Party feels about the Bush family and vice versa.
 
348sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 18:05
excuse making B?
 
349Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:11
Anytime your political rival finds a way to redistrict your home into a new less favorable district, the results are not favorable.
 
350Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:33
The GOP did the redistricting. I guess there really is no end to the blame game on the Right.
 
351Mith
      ID: 556121916
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:36
Jeb Bush is a "political rival" of the GOP, didn't you know?
 
352Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:37
Whatever happens, don't appoint him to a political government position!
 
353Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:41
You are familiar with Jeb Bush's recent statements regarding the Tea Party? I mean you are trying to keep up with current events, right?
 
354sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 19:52
The Tea Party, is not representative of any but rightwing extremists B. They should NOT, be taken as representing the GOP on the whole.
 
355Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 18:41
Murphy gains votes on West in recount of early votes.
 
356sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 18:48
"We are still evaluating how to handle this," West campaign manager Tim Edson said. "It's a unique case."

No it isnt. An unapologetic asswipe, lost in an open election. Nothing at all unique about it.
 
359Boldwin
      ID: 1410591818
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 21:12
Where are the civility police when people are being called asswipe?
 
360sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 21:14
Politicians are public figures. We the people, are free to evaluate them, as their behaviors warrant.
 
361DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 22:51
"Where are the civility police when people are being called asswipe?"

If you promise to stop saying similarly insulting things about politicians YOU disagree with, an arrangement might be reached. Until then, LOL you.
 
362Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 23:01
If we started erasing posts which called public officials bad names, Boldwin would have no lasting posting activity at all.
 
363Boldwin
      ID: 1410591818
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 23:29
Obama received 247K votes in St. Lucie County. Lucie County [Alan West's] only had 175K registered voters.

You do the math.

That and refusing to count the military votes is the only way Alan West could be beaten, even in that newly gerrymandered against West, district.
 
364sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 23:32
no he didnt. He got 65,869


GET OFF YOUR BLIND SITES AND RESEACRH

county by county, FL 2012 election results
 
365sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 23:47
Boldwins link above, links to this article:

link

where they say: Out of 175,554 registered voters, 247,713 vote cards were cast in St. Lucie County, Florida on Tuesday.

The article B links above, misrepresents the tally of vote cards cast, as being votes for Obama. (Not substantiated within the article at all. In fact, the article points out that Out of the 247,713 cards cast, somehow election machines counted 123,591 total votes. (slightly less than half the vote cards, IOW< some 300 ballots were invalidated)

We covered this already Boldwin, they had a 2 page ballot, thus each voter cast 2 cards (1 per page).

This is the problem with trying to HONESTLY educate the masses. You have a few agenda driven liars, who tell lie after lie after lie with such speed, you cant keep up and disprove them all.
 
366Boldwin
      ID: 1410591818
      Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 00:09
Podcast of election recount observer/lawyer explaining the environment of the recount.
 
367sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 00:13
see
 
368Boldwin
      ID: 294281510
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 14:28
Florida Gov Rick Scott looking at Allen West for Lt.Gov.

While it's true West has landed well at PJMedia, etc and is killing it on speaking gig...

...the road to the WH more often than not runs thru a governor's mansion. CEO training school for the executive position of president.