Forum: pol
Page 3516
Subject: What's going on in Wisconsin?


  Posted by: Tree, not at home - [3910441615] Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 17:59

Wis. lawmakers flee state to block anti-union bill


pretty exciting and interesting stuff...

The drama in Wisconsin unfolded in a jam-packed Capitol. Madison police and the State Department of Public Instruction estimated the crowd at 25,000 protesters, the largest number yet.

Demonstrators stood shoulder-to-shoulder in the building's hallways, sat cross-legged across the floor and made it difficult to move from room to room.

Protesters clogged the hallway outside the Senate chamber, beating on drums, holding signs deriding Walker and pleading for lawmakers to kill the bill. Some others even demonstrated outside lawmakers' homes.

Hundreds of teachers called in sick, forcing a number of school districts to cancel classes. Madison schools, the state's second-largest district, with 24,000 students, closed for a second day.

Thousands more people, many of them students from the nearby University of Wisconsin, slept in the rotunda for a second night.

"We are all willing to come to the table, we've have all been willing from day one," said Madison teacher Rita Miller. "But you can't take A, B, C, D and everything we've worked for in one fell swoop."
 
1Boldwin
      ID: 131561710
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 18:22


Public sector unions and their rhetoric. They should be banned. Oh wait, they are being.
 
2weykool
      ID: 138481617
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 18:33
Democrats running and hiding from the democratic process?
Nothing new to see here folks....move along.
 
3DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 18:51
Yeah, because they're the only ones ever to do this.

Oh, wait.
 
4DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 18:57
It should be pointed out that 16 of the 19 unions have already agreed to about $100 million in concessions, before someone starts spewing nonsense that "oh, those evil unions won't give anything back".
 
5DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 18:59
Also, as long as I'm multi posting, I'd rather they not be a similar level of morons to Sarah Palin with posters like the picture in #1.
 
6Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 19:10
actually, this is TOTALLY part of the democratic process.

and the dems are listening to the will of the people. 25,000 people is not exactly small potatoes.
 
7Boldwin
      ID: 15151722
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 23:05
The action is in Illinois too. Illinois Tea Party catches the runaway Wiscosin Dem legislators at the swanky Clocktower resort in Rockford Illinois and they've loaded up the shortbus and headed back north rather than cavort on You-Tube for the national audience.
 
8Boldwin
      ID: 15151722
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 23:10
It's embassassing to be caught in the national spotlite with your kilt tilted.
 
9wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 23:17
For the record, this is the budget that Gov. Walker "inherited".........


So it could be argued that there is not a budget issue in this state.
 
10Boldwin
      ID: 15151722
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 23:40
Oh, I think when the people's republic of Wisconsin elects republican control of House, Senate and Mansion...they think the spending is out of control.

 
11Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 23:44
Interesting. So the actual numbers don't look all that bad, despite the loss of the reciprocity tax payments from MN going forward.

It seems to me that, like the national budget problems, this is a manufactured opponent being attacked instead of the real problem, which is that the governor decided to stop collecting as much money to run the state government and therefore projects shortfalls as a result.

This is all about the GOP flexing against perceived political opponents.
 
12Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 00:01
Op ed seems to sum up the numbers pretty well. Things were looking all right until Walker decided that public unions should pay for his tax cuts.

Interesting that he wasn't able to make the case that tax cuts pay for themselves. He must have forgotten that part of the meme.
 
13Boldwin
      ID: 15151722
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 00:22
"Democrats believe in democracy - except when they lose".
 
14Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 01:08
There is no excuse for those signs, but there are no indications that anyone protesting are acting in an un-democratic way. No one has forced the governor to consider resigning.
 
15walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 12:49
Those signs are very inappropriate.

Personally, I am not a big fan of unions, and I also don't think having to pay 12.5% of one's health insurance is problematic (please), but if the governor has has made unbudgeted tax cuts, and is instead taking $ from the unions and those workers, then I think that's a big concern.
 
16Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 13:39




Tea Party supporters like to talk about bringing power back to the people. seems clear to me that what they mean is power to *their* people, because lord knows, there are a lot of people here looking to take the power back.
 
17Boldwin
      ID: 6161814
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 15:11
Stock up on the penicilin, Wisconsin.
 
18DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 15:44
An actual useful piece, with, you know, facts
 
19Boldwin
      ID: 6161814
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 15:46
"The actual numbers don't look all that bad." - PD

Only 44 billion in the hole.

In a state with a balanced budget amendment.
 
20Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 15:50
It doesn't sound like you read the detailed analysis that the Wisconsin legislature asks to be done on their budget every year. Wolfer linked to it in #9.

 
21DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 15:50
By the way, here's the massive bloating of Wisconsin's government employment numbers: (www.census.gov)

Wisconsin Full-time Equivalent Public Employment
Year Employment
1999 274173
2000 283490
2001 288252
2002 289944
2003 288044
2004 287256
2005 293712
2006 288073
2007 281645
2008 283351
2009 284963


Yup, that's right, those bastard liberals in government bloated their union buddies with about negative 3300 jobs over the last eight years. Clearly they're to blame.
 
22Boldwin
      ID: 6161814
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 15:51
Any way you slice 44 billion...
 
23Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 15:54
Until you read it, you remain ignorant of the actual information you purport to be commenting on.
 
24walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 15:55
me, me, me, we, we, we. Something is going to give, cos in 2012, if the republicans are in power, and remove regulations, cut taxes, cut spending on programs that help others, then the reverse of what we see with tea party may happen...and our country continues to stall when we should be growing.

To state the obvious, what we see here in Wisconsin could be another example of the seemingly never-ending widening gap in partisan politics. I think it gets worse and worse when politicians, and I will fingerpoint that the republicans and their media are worse at this than the dems, use scare tactics, anxiety and hyperbole to make their case.

Both sides do it, but one side does it more, and with a more intense level of denigration. Cries of socialism, marxism, bachmann, palin, beck, and other idiotic idiots do not help at all with solutions and collaboration. They don't really think that recent stimulus spending to ail the economy is some attempt at tyranny, but they'll say it to scare and motivate the base. Increase deficit spending for total domination of the nation! (I'd be more upset along these lines at warrantless wiretapping, but that's another president and party responsible, so it does not fit the agenda).

IMO, the tea party is a ruse for "I am worried about me and my kind." This union protest is similar. Ugh.
 
25Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 16:05
If I had to stay home from work because my kid's school was cancelled.....I don't think I'd be too happy with the unions/DNC.

If the legislature is in session, and the D's skip out of town. I don't think I'd be too happy paying these politicians to do nothing. Especially the D's.

Over 2 million Wisconsiners, Wisconsinites, Wisconsin people voted for Governor a few months ago. Why should anyone care about these paid and unpaid whiners at the capital. It's like 1%. Just like Egypt. Why should 1% of the people be able to make drastic changes in the government?
 
26Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 16:07
Why should a small percentage of the people elect the president? Of a governor?

That's how it is. Only a small percentage of the Americans in the 1700's actually took up arms against the British to break away. Does this make our country illegitimate?
 
27Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 16:11
That's how it is?

So you think the 20,000 protestors should trump the 2 million voters.
 
28DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 16:18
How far do you want to take tyranny by majority?

And did you feel that way in 2009 when Obama was elected and Democrats controlled both houses of congress? (Answer, you felt differently. Probably because you're taking a stand based on emotion and ideology and not on principle.)
 
29walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 16:38
There is no tyranny! There are bogus politics though (and not showing up to work to avoid a vote is bogus). The Dem controlled congress and exec office was not tyrannacicalcalallyese.
 
30Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 16:39
Those pictures in #16 look like the Texas capital on a busy of tourists.

 
31wolfer
      ID: 25521311
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 16:42
Re 27.

Today the number is somewhere in the ball park of around 35-40k. The police have stopped giving estimates.


For those who want to read it, this is the bill.
 
32Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 16:53
Good catch wolfer. Now there are 2% of the people who voted for governor protesting.

The new governor won by over 124,000 votes. You could triple that crowd, give all the votes to the loser of the governors race, and he would still lose.
 
33walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 16:53
NYT, Wisconsin and Washington
 
34wolfer
      ID: 25521311
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 17:06
Re 32:

Thats just in Madison. There are protests going on all over the state.
 
35DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 17:12
Unions have to make significant concessions? Fine, I'll buy it. Oh, wait, they offered concessions which instantly solve 2/3 of Wisconsin's current budget problem.

Democratic legislators shouldn't flee the state to prevent discussion of the bill? OK, sure.

Public sector unions are the source of all Wisconsin's evils and public sector workers need to have all ability to collectively bargain taken away permanently (and THAT's what the actual bill does, save for the ability to collectively bargain wages -- which are guaranteed to never ever ever be better than the rate of inflation)? Pure right wing partisan hack nutjobbery.
 
36Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 17:38
DWetz - Public sector unions are the source of all Wisconsin's evils...

You have it all wrong, it's traditionally democratic public sector unions, silly! Police, firefighters and Hwy Patrol unions are exempt from these changes in the rules. THAT, my friend is

Pure right wing partisan hack nutjobbery.
 
37DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 17:51
Well, I was trying to be generous and not point that out. Obviously, collectively bargaining for those unions works fine. It's those money-grubbing teachers and their average salaries that are dragging the world down.

 
38Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 18, 2011, 19:47
So you think the 20,000 protestors should trump the 2 million voters

I don't think the voters (of any number) can trump the right of even one person to protest against their government.

And neither do you, frankly.
 
39Tree
      ID: 24115767
      Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 12:47
Pro-labor protesters in Wis. aim to keep the peace

all the way down at the bottom of the article:
The leader of the state's largest public employee union said workers were prepared to discuss financial concessions but not to give up bargaining rights. Marty Beil, executive director of the Wisconsin State Employees Union, said protests would continue until (Republican governor) Walker agrees to negotiate.

But neither Walker nor the Republicans who took control of both the state Senate and Assembly in November appear ready to make concessions. Walker has called on Senate Democrats to "come home" and rebuffed a request to sit down with them to seek a compromise.
 
40wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 17:37
I know this was not reported yesterday. We all know about the Senate, here is what happened in the Assembly. Its just another example of how the Republicans want to get this bill passed ASAP!
 
41DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 18:33
In before weykool condems this outrageous abuse of the sacred process of government by those darn Democrats -- er, wait, Republicans did it? No big deal!
 
42wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Sun, Feb 20, 2011, 20:03
Five public employee unions actually supported Walker in the election, and now one is having 2nd thoughts.
 
43Boldwin
      ID: 441162018
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 04:09
FDR would go further than Walker!
Roosevelt's reign certainly was the bright dawn of modern unionism. The legal and administrative paths that led to 35% of the nation's workforce eventually unionizing by a mid-1950s peak were laid by Roosevelt.

But only for the private sector. Roosevelt openly opposed bargaining rights for government unions.

"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service," Roosevelt wrote in 1937 to the National Federation of Federal Employees. Yes, public workers may demand fair treatment, wrote Roosevelt. But, he wrote, "I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place" in the public sector. "A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government."

Walker, good Republican, is no FDR but he is offering Wisconsin a new deal, lower-case. Wisconsin's been a seedbed of bad ideas since it hatched Progressivism, and for years it's stuck with unionized government even as the price swelled. Walker's radical shift is to try securing necessary government at a better price. The unions, whose model depends on making government labor as costly as taxpayers will bear, object.
Naturally the chickens have come home to roost earliest, to the roost they departed from earliest.

You keep saying big government would work if you could just root out waste, fraud and abuse.

How about starting with the collusion where abusive union power funds abusive limitless wasteful spending on their behalf.

"If you just make the next three generations our bankrupted indentured servants we'll keep you in power".

"But promises were made".
 
44Boldwin
      ID: 441162018
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 04:10
Patrick McIlheran via Real Clear Politics
 
45walk
      ID: 517172117
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 08:40
NYT, Krugman: Wisconsin Power Play
 
46Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 09:07
#44: What a load of hooey. FDR didn't want public sector unions but there is no evidence he would have accepted Walker's tactics in trying to break them.
 
47Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 14:00
Moderate GOP'er's plan to compromise on the impasse shot down before the ink dried.

Clearly Walker is trying to break the unions at this point. The budget "crisis" was manufactured and he simply doesn't care about anything less than breaking all of them.

Bad policy and bad politics.
 
48wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 20:21
Re 44 and to a lesser extent 46


You are right that he wrote it, however the letter in question is a letter CONGRATULATING a federal employee union.

FDR only opposed strikes by those unions.
 
49Boldwin
      ID: 281232120
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 21:24
What a load of hooey. FDR didn't want public sector unions but there is no evidence he would have accepted Walker's tactics in trying to break them. - PD

So he wouldn't have allowed them to strike but somehow he would have let them anyway.

What is your definition of hooey?

FDR only opposed strikes by those unions. - Wolf

This puts him on the side of the striking Wisconsin public sector workers how?

Clearly Walker is trying to break the unions at this point. The budget "crisis" was manufactured and he simply doesn't care about anything less than breaking all of them. - PD

If I had a nickel for every time a liberal dishonestly tried to conflate all unions with public sector unions in the public mind.

His position is positively weak-kneed compared to many other states which don't allow public sector unions at all or Reagan who fired the striking traffic controllers.
 
50wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 21:33
There is another equally as troubling part of this bill. The state could sell or contract state owned power plants to anyone
like the people who were the second biggest contributors to Walkers campaign.
 
51Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 21:45
...on the side of the striking Wisconsin public sector workers...

You know they are not striking, right? Because your comment makes it sound like you don't know the facts on the ground.

...tried to conflate all unions...

And you know we are only talking about the public employee unions, yes? Again, the facts seem opaque with comments such as this one, particularly since the avoid completely the point being made.
 
52Boldwin
      ID: 281232120
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 21:59
Wisconsin Doctors Offering Fake Sick Notes For Strikers?

'You can't replace me, I'm a professional'.

How else are they gonna learn how to bully, ditch school or tell the boss to get screwed?

And by 'boss' I mean the voting majority.
 
53wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 23:13
PD is right. They are not striking, as it has been illegal in this state since 1971.
 
54wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 23:16
Yes I said this state as I happen to live in the "people's republic of Wisconsin" as it was referred to earlier.
 
55Boldwin
      ID: 281232120
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 02:44
I stand corrected.

How else are they gonna learn how to bully, ditch school, tell the boss to get screwed or break the law?
 
56Boldwin
      ID: 281232120
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 02:58
Wildcat strike - wiki

aka illegal anywhere in the USA by virtue of federal law.
 
57Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 09:09
They may not be striking, but I was in Madison this weekend and the schools were closed Thursday and Friday and had announced early Sunday evening they were going to be closed on Monday. I don't know about today.

I disagree with the approach that is being taken, but I can understand it. Having to have the same fight with every union at the next contract bargining session would be tiring and could result in wild disparities.

What I find interesting is most non-union employees don't have this right to begin with. When your employer tells you what your health insurance cost is going to be, you can either accept it or start looking for a new job. I have no idea why people feel this is a right.
 
58Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 09:28
wolfer: You been calling in sick? Just kidding.

I don't know why you would need a note from your doctor, anyways. Where I work, you have to be sick like 4 or 5 days in a row to even need a note from a doctor. Plus who goes to the doctor every time they're sick?
 
59Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 11:11
I have no idea why people feel this is a right.

A very complicated question, this!

In the case of the public sector employees in Wisconsin, however, what is going on is slightly different. The unions are willing to concede benefits and so on (that is, to tear up their current contracts and sign new ones with fewer benefits). But the governor isn't interested in negotiating with the unions. He wants to eliminate the unions entirely.
 
60boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 11:33
What I find interesting is most non-union employees don't have this right to begin with. When your employer tells you what your health insurance cost is going to be, you can either accept it or start looking for a new job. I have no idea why people feel this is a right.

you are right maybe I should also tell my employer that they should pay for me not coming to work for the next 6 weeks. If roles were reversed and the governor was trying to break up a business monopoly, i would dare say most of the people here defending the unions would be the first to defend the governor. Ironically they are both the same.
 
61wolfer
      ID: 25521311
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 11:51
Re 58

Its more of a protection for them just in case if something happens to them at their place of work.

Just when I thought I have seen it all.
 
62Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 12:45
PD, you are projecting Walker's final aims. The bill will allow unions to negotiate salary for employees, but not health care and retirement benefits. That seems pretty common for non-union employees in my experience. I'm not sure what is complicated about my question. If it is a right, why do non-union employees not have it?

Maybe Walker should be willing to sit down at the negotiating table, but is there realistically enough time to have every union sit down and renegotiate their contracts now. Budget surpluses and deficits are easy to manipulate, but it isn't hard to believe that Wisconsin is in a crisis. Illinois just to the south is by all accounts in a crisis? Or is the crisis there and in California just as fictional?

Are there any Wisconsin residents who know how teacher's union contracts are done? I know in Indiana each school corporation has their own contract with the local union (approximately 300 school corporations.)

I have no doubt that the negotiations that will result if this bill is passed are going to be long, nasty affairs.
 
63Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 12:51
Frick, this is no projection at all. Gov Walker wants to bust the unions. Is this really in doubt?

The bill allows unions to "negotiate" but not for any raises (that is, no raises above CPI, which is no raise at all). And doesn't allow them to negotiate any other benefits. Think about this for a sec: Your employer lets you ask for a salary increase only as much as inflation. And no other benefits.

Since Walker only just submitted his budget, I don't know where the sudden worry about the timeliness comes in.
 
64boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 13:41
Frick, this is no projection at all. Gov Walker wants to bust the unions. Is this really in doubt?

Is this really a question? Of course he is, the better question is why should I care?
 
65Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 13:48
All republicans want to bust all unions.
 
66Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 13:51
I dunno. Underpaid teachers, firefighters, and police probably aren't in the best interest of us all.

And encouraging state governors to act in bad faith isn't either.
 
67Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 14:58
PD, do you have a source for no raises above the CPI? The articles that I read in the Madison newspapers only claimed that medical and pension benefits would not be negotiable, not salary/pay.

Umm, I felt very luck the last 2 years to keep my same pay, let alone a raise (that probably put me in better position than 90% of others in the area.) And what do you mean by no benefits? I read that and think that you are implying that teachers and other public workers will suddenly have to no benefits at all.

Re: 66 Again, where does unpaid teachers come from? And from anything that I have read, firefighters and police are exempt from this. I don't know the details of Wisconsin, but I know that some police and firefighters in Indiana are exempt from SS, as they have their own pension plan in place. I'm not aware of this being the case for any teachers.
 
68Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 15:00
Re: 66 #2

From what I read in the Wisconsin papers, Walker was elected with this as a key part of his platform. So, it is a bad faith for politicians to follow-up on their election promises?
 
69DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 15:30
Re: inquiry in 67:

http://www.9wsyr.com/news/local/story/Wisconsin-governor-warns-of-layoff-notices/N8NytIsIP0y2v3kKjFV6dw.cspx

Walker's plan would allow unions representing most public employees to negotiate only for wage increases, not benefits or working conditions. Any wage increase above the Consumer Price Index would have to be approved in a referendum. Unions would face a vote of membership every year to stay formed, and workers could opt out of paying dues.

So, technically, they could get an increase above CPI... by a voter referendum, so, no freaking chance in hell.
 
70Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 15:33
Looks like the Indiana Democrats have fled the state, also. They have to go to a state with a Democrat governor, so they won't be arrested.
 
71DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 15:35
(There are plenty of others; if I were in the mood to be a smartass I'd have suggested link instead. Hopefully that is sufficient though.)
 
72Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 16:29
I apologize, I hadn't seen the no raises above CPI before. That being said, public employees have to get approval from their ultimate bosses before they receive a raise greater than CPI? Sounds outlandish to me.

And that is assuming that there are no increases for increased experience, how many teacher contracts work in Indiana. Teachers get an annual increase in their salary, based on their experience and education.

Walker is wrong in not being willing to negotiate. Negotiating and compromise are part of the system. Not being there to negotiate is just as wrong though.

In Indiana, the bill, for which Gov. Mitch Daniels (R) cautiously voiced support, stops unions from being able to negotiate contracts that require non-union members to pay fees.

Wow, what dedication to unions to stop this blatant exploitation by big business!

Wait, let me fix that.

What dedication to workers to stop this blatant exploitation by unions.

/head explodes
 
73DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 16:56
Would you be okay with them permanently fixing the increases (for each level of pay, of course) at greater than CPI? If not, why is one OK and not the other?

Again, it's worth spelling out: it's not that the union is being asked to take cuts and is refusing. It's that the current boss wants to make it impossible for the future bosses to give MORE than CPI if seen fit. If the ultimate aim is to fix the budget, why not just say "hey, we're not giving you a raise this year" and be done with it?
 
74DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 16:57
"In Indiana, the bill, for which Gov. Mitch Daniels (R) cautiously voiced support, stops unions from being able to negotiate contracts that require non-union members to pay fees."

OK, that sucks too. If someone wants to go it alone and negotiate their own contract with the school district, from scratch, that's fine with me.
 
75DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 17:46
To clarify, since that read badly the way I wrote it: if people don't want to be part of unions, they shouldn't have to -- but they should get none of the benefits pertaining thereto.
 
76wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 20:41
For those who want to see them......

Walker's chat

The Dems response

 
77Seward Norse
      ID: 297412913
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 10:48
I've been a republican for over 15 years, and a teacher for 12 years. I've pretty much always voted republican despite the fact that I disagree with many of their stances on education. All of a sudden, however, we seem to be taking hits all over the nation, and I can't see myself voting for the GOP in the future if this is the way that they're going to head. I have several other teachers at my school that feel the same way that I do, and I wonder if the GOP has thought about the number of voters that they're losing by heading in this direction. Not a very smart move in my opinion.
 
78Boldwin
      ID: 58119236
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 10:52
In effect, public employee unions are a mechanism by which every taxpayer is forced to fund the Democratic Party.
 
79walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 11:44
Interesting Poll Interpretations
 
80Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 13:27
Great post, Seward. I don't think I'm being hyperbolic when I state that attempting to eliminate collective bargaining for a handful of public sector unions is radical extremism. In general, any party suffers when they seek a radically extreme platform.

You are just one example of the fall out.
 
81DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 13:29
I hate to be that guy that says +1, but... +1.
 
82Boldwin
      ID: 58119236
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 13:41
Seward, there is no way you could ever recognize that non-adversarial bargaining is nonsense? You might as well go out and jump your positive and negative terminals together on your car battery. There is nothing there to keep it from turning it into a runaway process.

There is no comparison between private sector unions haggling with their employer and public sector unions.

 
83DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 13:58
non-adversarial bargaining

Funny, it seems pretty adversarial right now.
 
84Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 14:01
that non-adversarial bargaining is nonsense?

Exactly. Which is why public sector unions are fighting for their very existence in Wisconsin.
 
85Boldwin
      ID: 58119236
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 14:23
Exactly why they were recently willing to concede on demands temporarily [until the next dem cycle in power] as long as they got to keep the collusion machinery in place until then.
 
86DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 14:24
At least Walker will admit his real motives to Ed Koch... oops!

Walker prank called by someone pretending to be Koch
 
87walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 14:26
blah blah blah. It's all about consolidating corporate power, which is a paramount republican agenda item related to political donations -- and unions represent an organized opposition (regulations are another). If only we could all get along...
 
88Boldwin
      ID: 58119236
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 14:29
It has nothing whatsoever to do with corporations. It is about unions which don't negotiate with corporations. It is about dems handing their campaign contributors blank checks from our checkbook, not some corporation's.
 
89DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 14:37
Sure, it's a slightly more indirect process than when Walker gives tax breaks to his corporate buddies then decides schools can't afford teachers any more, but I can't see why one makes you so angry and not the other.
 
90Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 14:55
It is about unions which don't negotiate with corporations

This is a statement which is completely free of the facts about the actual situation in Wisconsin. Unions have already indicated their willingness to reduce benefits and pay to the exact amounts requested by the governor.

Of the two parties here, one of them is not willing to sit down. And it isn't the unions.
 
91Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 15:07
Actually both sides of the political spectrum are not willing to sit down. One side is saying my way or the high way, and the other is taking their ball away and going home.

I mixed feelings on the voter reforendum needed to increase public employee salaries. On one hand it would make it significantly harder for employees to obtain raises, and more detrimentially it would be harder to reward excellent performance, although in my experience that is poor currently regardless. On the other hand, has anyone else had an experience where a public employee was less than helpful or even down right rude to them? Would attitudes and service be better if they new that a potential raise would be dependent on a voter reforendum?

 
92Boldwin
      ID: 58119236
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 15:16
It is about unions which don't negotiate with corporations - B

This is a statement which is completely free of the facts about the actual situation in Wisconsin. Unions have already indicated their willingness to reduce benefits and pay to the exact amounts requested by the governor. - PD


Which corporation were they negotiating with?
 
93DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 15:57
Re: 91 on one hand it would make it significantly harder for employees to obtain raises, and more detrimentially it would be harder to reward excellent performance, although in my experience that is poor currently regardless. (in an attempt to rationally debate) --

2006 (most recent available AFAIK) SAT and ACT scores , where Wisconsin students are well above average.

National report cards (you know, those standardized tests), where, again, they seem to be doing pretty well. (Obviously, there are a bunch of socioeconomic factors in play as well, but if you want to hold Wisconsin up as a bastion of above-average family incomes and academic environments, then maybe they can afford above-average salaries).

Also.. if one side says "my way or the highway", and the other side picks the highway...well, that was one of their two choices.

On the other hand, has anyone else had an experience where a public employee was less than helpful or even down right rude to them? Would attitudes and service be better if they new that a potential raise would be dependent on a voter referendum?

Magic 8 ball says "fat chance". First of all, the massive gaping flaw in this theory is that a solid majority of the people voting have no direct interaction with the people they're being asked to make a decision about, because they don't have kids, or have kids but they're not of school age (whether too young or too old). You're asking most of those people who get no direct benefit from better schools and teachers to pay more. Of course they're going to say no, because people are generally short sighted that way and don't much care about the education of the next generation nearly as much as they care about their current bank balance.
 
94Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 16:31
We should separate the debate. Teachers and other public employees.

My personal opinion is that localities should be allowed to set teacher salaries. Voting on the school board who negotiates with the union on salary is one of their primary purposes.

Public employee salaries like the DMV and Auditor's office are a much smaller part of the job that a mayor or Governor is elected for.

I have yet to see a study that independently links teacher salaries with effectiveness. I'm sure that there is a high correlation between teacher pay and standardized tests, but the book Freakonomics does a pretty good job of showing a correlation between test scores and economic and social factors. Is it a stretch to assume that wealthier cities pay their teachers more (and have a higher cost of living) and have higher test scores?

As far as the 2006 test scores, a quick glance shows some strange discrepancies. IL students scored 100 points higher on each section of the SAT, but were 1.2 points lower on the ACT composite? That seems like a pretty large difference between the two tests. Is that a result of the teaching and education system, or a by product of who is taking the tests.
 
95DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 16:49
Is it a stretch to assume that wealthier cities pay their teachers more (and have a higher cost of living) and have higher test scores?

Not at all. I think it's fairly well accepted that (in general; I'm sure there are exceptions) wealthier communities spend more on education in general. Not just on teachers, of course, but on education (facilities, books, computers, etcetera) as a whole.

Which, not coincidentally, is why I'm not happy with the idea of purely local-level funding for schools. Those kids that happen to be born into poorer families are basically doomed to a much worse education under that sort of plan. There are a few things that I'm utterly certain that we should be willing to heavily invest in as a society, and education is at the very top of the list.

As for your question re: ACT and SAT -- I couldn't find a handy Google link for exactly which states tend to use which test, but in general, yes, there could be significant differences from state to state. Basically, it depends on which test the major public universities prefer -- and this varies from state to state. Historically, the midwest was more ACT based, and the SAT was more east coast and west coast -- but this has blurred a bit.

I'd wager a decent sum that the test scores tend to be higher for the non-preferred test in a given state. For instance, if hypothetically (I don't know if I've got the right test--pretend for a minute and/or adjust accordingly) the University of Wisconsin system uses ACT scores and not SAT scores, then the schlubs who just want to squeak into Madison and party with Bucky Badger will ake the ACT but are not likely to take the SAT, while the kids who are applying to Wisconsin, Stanford, and Harvard would be taking the SAT -- and this would appear to inflate the SAT scores relative to ACT scores for that state. I hope that makes sense.
 
96Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 19:41
Bully is as bully does.
 
97wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 22:01
Re 62 (and I know that this is after the fact....)

It is done the same way here that it is done here, however, if the bill passes all bets are off. Also, the events of the last week here, some people have brought this up.
 
98Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 22:13
Local funding does help exacerbate the issues with wealthy versus poor school districts and I don't disagree that a child born into a poor family should not be destined to fail. But, I also don't agree with localities having no control over their own school system. If a community wants to have a higher tax rate and provide better funding, why shouldn't they be able to? Teacher salaries are (in Indiana) negotiated at the local level, but funding is now more centralized. Despite being more centralized there are still disparities, even inside the same district. My wife taught in a very poor district for about 5 years. The state and district provided funding to purchase computers and printers. They didn't provide enough funding to purchase paper for the printers, so the teachers had to use their own funds to purchase paper. Other schools in the district were able to get parents to provide paper and software programs. My wife had to buy pencils for her students since the parents didn't.
 
99Boldwin
      ID: 561302321
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 22:31
Government unions have nothing in common with private-sector unions because they don't have hostile management on the other side of the bargaining table. To the contrary, the "bosses" of government employees are co-conspirators with them in bilking the taxpayers.

Far from being careful stewards of the taxpayers' money, politicians are on the same side of the bargaining table as government employees – against the taxpayers, who aren't allowed to be part of the negotiation. This is why the head of New York's largest public union in the mid-'70s, Victor Gotbaum, gloated, "We have the ability to elect our own boss."

Democratic politicians don't think of themselves as "management." They don't respond to union demands for more money by saying, "Are you kidding me?" They say, "Great – get me a raise too!"

Service Employees International Union officials openly threaten California legislators. At a 2009 legislative hearing, an SEIU member sneered into a microphone: "We helped to getchu into office, and we gotta good memory. Come November, if you don't back our program, we'll getchu out of office." [this would be known as a bad bargaining position were they even inclined to quibble - B]

Look for the union fable - AC
 
100Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 22:45
Come November, if you don't back our program, we'll getchu out of office.

So they threatened to vote them out if they don't vote how they want? My goodness--how undemocratic is that!
 
101biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 23:36
The last whisper of those speaking truth to power, and those who "fear gov'mint" have somehow have been twisted into railing against the last squeaks of the working man.
 
102biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 23:54
The funny thing about school funding here in Washington is that we vastly subsidize the education of kids in the red states who consistently vote against properly funding education.

Do the inner city kids desperate for more face time with a caring teacher get fcuked because we are sending all our money to keep open these 9 seat schools in the boonies who consistently vote against Ed levies.

 
103biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 23:55
That would be red counties, not states.
 
104Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 01:11
Indiana ADA "gunning" for a job on FOX, now that he's been fired for suggesting live ammunition be used on WI protesters.

The newest hero of the Right.
 
105Boldwin
      ID: 561302321
      Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 02:36
bili

For the record Wisconsin spends the highest on education per capita in the midwest and the US Dept of Education reports that 2/3 of Wisconsin eight graders cannot read at a proficient level.
 
106Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 08:27
For the record, it sounds like someone mangled some data for you. (I see that your points are the latest rage in memes on the Right). If you are talking about midwest spending as some sort of guideline, then you should look at midwest reading proficiency (that is, if you are trying to draw a parallel between spending and reading scores).

Alternatively, you can compare per-capital spending costs nationally (taking into account, of course, cost-of-living for areas) if you want to make a nationwide comparison.

The fact that the views different *should* be a red flag to you.

I haven't managed to find anything more recent than 2007 that is accessible, but in 2007 Wisconsin ranked just about average (maybe a tiny bit better than average) in reading scores.
 
107Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 08:30
 
108DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 08:48
They didn't provide enough funding to purchase paper for the printers, so the teachers had to use their own funds to purchase paper. Other schools in the district were able to get parents to provide paper and software programs. My wife had to buy pencils for her students since the parents didn't.

Frick -- exactly. "We're spending too much on education and those teachers are so damn greedy with our tax dollars -- oh, wait, why do the teachers have to spend their salary on pencils for the kids because we're not providing that funding?"

Part of this, of course, is shortsighted/ridiculous spending mandates by people who ought to know better (here's a grant, but you can only use it on computers, and next year it won't be there -- well, duh, we'll go buy computers and then not have the resources to use them). Solution: fund nationally (or stately, I suppose), spend locally, with relatively few strings attached.

And yes, it's great that some districts want to go above and beyond on fundraising. I don't think we can, or should, stop that. But don't talk to me about that as the solution while some districts can't afford pencils.

I'm actually frightened that the next step in all of this is that we start giving student loans to first graders (at very reasonable interest rates, of course!).
 
109Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 11:03
I'm not sure about others, but my experience was the school provided a list of student provided supplies, this included things like a box of crayons, pencils, notebooks, etc. This was the same at all of the schools in the district, it just happened that my wife worked in the poorest part of the district and the parents either couldn't afford or didn't want to bother with providing the supplies. This was the same school where they had kids who didn't know how to hold a book. I'm guessing that most of us with kids know that kids will pretend to read themselves, but that behavior is obtained from watching parents read or having been read to.

I apologize for the tangent. I'm curious to see how this plays out and the precedents it sets. Walker is wrong for not being willing to negotiate, but hiding in another state and is not helping. If the majority of people feel this strongly that this course is wrong, it will quickly be corrected in the next election. Last time I checked that was how the system was supposed to work.
 
110DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 11:25
I think it's a highly relevant tangent, don't be sorry.

The obvious problem here is that a temporary problem (state budget) is not being fixed by a temporary solution (union concessions). This leads one to conclude that the reason for the proposed collective bargaining restrictions are not designed to solve the problem, but are designed to hack at his political enemies.
 
111biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 13:35
My limited experience with public schools around here, and this has been seconded by teachers I know, is that the problem with schools is primarily bloated administration and management of the district.

Sure there is the occasional teacher mailing it in who no longer cares for the student, but the vast majority are working extremely hard for the kids, paying for things out of pocket, putting in long hours for low pay, relative to other careers, and are very dedicated.
 
112Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 18:58
As long as we're on the kick about teacher collective bargaining and its effect on educational attainment, it is worth noting where the 5 states without collective bargaining for teachers rank in terms of student ACT/SAT scores.
 
113wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 20:14
How's this for irony?


There's more to the prank caller than meets the eye.
 
114Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 00:07
Thankfully the majority of the left isn't all tied up in that type of committed anti-war ideology, despite his perfect fit for one of Boldwin's "rabid pacifist" caracature of American liberals.
 
115Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 08:04
Wis. Assembly passes bill taking away union rights

Debate had gone on for 60 hours and 15 Democrats were still waiting to speak when the vote started around 1 a.m. Friday. Speaker Pro Tem Bill Kramer, R-Waukesha, opened the roll and closed it within seconds.

Democrats looked around, bewildered. Only 13 of the 38 Democratic members managed to vote in time.

Republicans immediately marched out of the chamber in single file. The Democrats rushed at them, pumping their fists and shouting "Shame!" and "Cowards!"

The Republicans walked past them without responding.


I hope the Dems in the Senate stay away for as long as necessary.
 
116Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 08:47
Re: 112

That could be a very telling stat or it could mean nothing. A simple way to show if any cause and effect would be to look at their scores (not ranking) before and after the change in bargining rights.

Implying causation is a bad habit that to many news organizations and bloggers fall back on.

 
117Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 08:51
Oh, I don't doubt that. There are a lot of factors (including class size, teacher salary, etc) that go into classroom success.

But if the anti-unionists want to start throwing around bad stats to prove their case, I'm happy to provide better ones which demonstrate that the opposite of what they believe to be true might be actually happening.
 
118wolfer
      ID: 25521311
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 09:16
Re 115
Video of the vote.

It happened so quick, I did not catch everything on the local morning news.
 
119Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 09:37
Without creating to much of a tangent, do unions have to much power currently?

It was mentioned before, but a bill was introduced in Indiana that would allow individuals decide if they want to join a union or not. Currently some shops require union membership to work. The governor has cautiously voiced his approval, but democrats have fled the state rather than allow a quorum and having a vote.

I personally think after hearing all of the details that the Wisconsin bill goes to far and the majority of voters for it will be replaced and the bill annulled. But, legislators fleeing the state rather than allow individuals the choice on union membership as a requirement for a job?
 
120DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 10:08
In some areas? Yes, they do. For instance, they're far too overprotective of their truly bad members. (This isn't true of all unions, but it is for many.) IMO they'd be better served to police their own brand better, and make "member of X union" a badge of honor, because people know that if you're crap they won't have you.

In areas such as salary and benefits? I think they level the playing field against corporations who would otherwise have a huge information and power advantage over the individual worker and would do everything they could to squeeze pennies and/or screw over workers with basically no check whatsoever. (And yes, this includes public sector unions. First year teachers are much cheaper than 15th year teachers, so despite the fact that 14 years of experience usually is quite helpful, who would you get rid of if you had to face a budget crisis and the bottom line was all that anyone was going to hear about?)
 
121Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 10:38
A teacher with 15 years of experience is more expensive because of the union. And once a teacher has multiple years of experience it becomes nearly impossible for them to hire into a new school. Why would a school district hire a teacher who will receive a $60k salary with 15 years of experience and a masters over a teacher who will get a $30k salary right out of college. So in essence the union is trapping a teacher in the school district they are in.

I disagree about the companies trying to squeeze pennies from workers in every case. In the instance where the labor is unskilled and can easily be replaced, yes that would happen. In instances where the labor has unique and/or hard to train skills? It isn't worth it. I worked at a company where the union went on strike over health insurance cost increases. When the company started hiring scab workers, it intentionally targeted specific jobs that had those traits and enticed strikers back with pay increases over what was being offered in the union contract. The scab workers were offered the proposed union contract wage rates.

As was mentioned previously there is a balancing act for a private company between retaining skilled workers and staying in business. That balancing act isn't as effective in government employment. I've worked in both environments and the knowledge that the government entity you work for isn't going to go bankrupt next month and your paycheck is going to arrive is comforting.

I asked the question before and didn't hear an answer, but how many people look forward to going to the DMV? Do you think the customer service would be better if the employees knew that their future pay increases would be dependent on keeping their customers (voters) happy? What motivation do they currently have for good performance? There are no alternatives and competition for some government services. Well, there is the alternative to move to a different county, state or country I guess.

 
122Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 10:46
A teacher with 15 years of experience is more expensive because of the union

Yes, but the other way to look at this is that a teacher with 15 years experience has a higher income and benefits because of the union.

So the question becomes: As a society, do we want to have public employees like police, teachers, firefighters, etc to have higher salaries and benefits, and therefore to draw hires from a larger number of people as a result?

In general, positions with higher pay get better applicants to fill them (conversely, an employer will have more and better applicants to pick from for such fields). The best way to ensure poor job performance for new hires is by slashing pay and benefits for the position, which is exactly what the Wisconsin governor is proposing.
 
123DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 10:49
A teacher with 15 years of experience is more expensive because of the union. (snip) Why would a school district hire a teacher who will receive a $60k salary with 15 years of experience and a masters over a teacher who will get a $30k salary right out of college.

No, a teacher with 15 years of experience is more expensive because they've been there for 15 years and have 15 years of experience and are, generally speaking, A BETTER TEACHER. Would you rather have two random first year teachers who need training every year or one 15 year teacher that knows what they're doing? (Republican answer: one random new teacher and a corporate tax break ... but I digress.) If I was designing a school district and I actually cared how good the education was? I'd be hiring those teachers with experience basically every time.

Would you rather hire someone right out of college to manage your grocery store, or would you rather have someone running it that has actually been in the business for a while and knows what they're doing? Which one would you expect commands a higher salary? Is this because of a union, or because one's worth more to you than the other?

I mean, if you actually value them equally, then sure, hire the new kid every time. But you're making a really ridiculous valuation then that basically says "I don't give a crap about the quality of the education, I just want the cheapest teacher."

Ask your wife if she was as good a teacher in her first year as she is today.


I asked the question before and didn't hear an answer, but


I think I'm rather annoyed that you didn't bother to read all of post 93.
 
124Seward Norse
      ID: 297412913
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 10:54
As a teacher with 12 years of experience and a Master's Degree I'm quite certain that without the union I'd be sure to be let go. It doesn't matter what kind of teacher I am. What you'd find is schools would be filled with kids fresh out of college for a few years until they were making too much and would be replaced. Soon, all teachers would be accepting the minimum salary to keep their jobs. I actually don't like the union much, but with the structure currently in place it's a necessary evil.
 
125walk
      ID: 517172117
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 11:11
Interesting, and a bit sad. This same logic could apply to non-union organizations and industries, and to some degree, probably does, but for the most part, if you perform well, you will likely not get let go unless a biz is taken down (or some bogus poli stuff, which also happens).
 
126Seward Norse
      ID: 297412913
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 11:18
The problem is, the education "business" IS down. There is no money here. We do everything we can to try and save every penny we can here at school. Heat is turned way down, paper supply cut short, etc. This is a BIG problem, and is something worth working on instead of just trying to screw unions over. In my opinion it is unfunded mandates that have driven education costs up more than anything.
 
127Seward Norse
      ID: 297412913
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 11:31
I won't be back for a while after this, gotta teach, but sometime take a look at the number of special ed teachers at schools in comparison to core subject teachers. You'll find that there are twice as many SPED teachers as math teachers for example. Now, the students that they're working with need that individual attention, but when you see low class size averages, that is why. I have 34 in my math class while a SPED class may have 6. Averages out to 20 which looks pretty impressive. We have plenty of laws on SPED students, while the other students just have to deal with it because there are no mandates for them. Again, one of about 50 things more valuable in education to fix or deal wtih than unions.
 
128Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 11:35
I don't disagree Seward the mandates that have come down and not included the proper funding. And you raise a valid point that teachers with years of experience could be forced into taking a pay cut.

My point is that the unions are in essence forcing employees to stay in their union. By not providing flexibility to workers they are potentially harming some of the people they say that are trying to protect. If you had to move, what are you chances of finding a teaching position in a new school district. If you teach high school math or science, probably not bad, if you teach elementary school, probably not good.

Are teachers with 20 years of experience worth 2 teachers with a year of experience? It depends, on some cases probably not. In other cases, probably so. There are plenty of teachers that are very good and work hard every year. There are also plenty of teachers that are coasting until retirement and could care less.

You raise a valid point about what is good for the community and what is good for an individual. But, communities with poor or underfunded school systems are going to feel that pain quickly. A great example is home prices, areas with good schools have (IMO) significantly higher home prices, that might not hit the pocket book directly, but is the single largest investment most people make in their lifetimes.

Once a fair wage is established for a position, is a pay increase over CPI needed every year? I don't know about all public service jobs, but if an annual increase or even better performance increase is included in the contract, how often are raises above CPI needed?
 
129DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 11:52
"Once a fair wage is established for a position, is a pay increase over CPI needed every year? I don't know about all public service jobs, but if an annual increase or even better performance increase is included in the contract, how often are raises above CPI needed? "

Most job tracks give the employee an opportunity to move up through the company to "more valuable" (= higher paid) positions, which also generally have CPI (or other forms of, as granted by the employer) raises. (The same position ten years ago was paid less than the same position now.) Generally speaking, that's not available to people in the education track (unless they actually want to get out of teaching entirely). Providing experience-based pay increases also, as a general rule, doesn't affect district budgets much from year to year, because if you're doing it right, you replace the eldest (retiring) teachers with new ones, and everyone else moves up the ladder, and you have the same number of people in approximately the same pay scales.
 
130Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 13:14
BTW, that Indiana "right to work" bill does more than just make it so that people have to pay union dues directly rather than having it withheld from your payment. It makes it a crime for an employer to require union membership as a condition of employment.

Seems a mite intrusive, to me.

Mitch Daniels explains his decision to shelve right-to-work legislation in Indiana, which boils down to the fact that they did not campaign on it, and it has the possibility (witness Wisconsin) of being an unnecessary obstacle for other issues.
 
131walk
      ID: 517172117
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 13:54
NYT, Krugman
 
132Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 13:58
So you would be against a bill that would allow workers to not be part of a union and work for a company?

From my understanding the requirement of union membership is part of the union contract with the employer. What type of crime would it be if a membership was required? Misdemenor, felony?

The withholding of union dues by the employer seems like a convienience for everyone except for the employer. Actually it sounds like a huge PITA for the unions who would, IMO, have a much tougher time getting support when employees had to write them a check each month, rather than have it be a line item on their deductions.
 
133boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 14:03
In the 1950 I think that article would have landed Krugman in front of the house Un-American Activities Committtee.
 
134Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 14:15
I agree, Frick, which is why the unions are fighting it.

In general, I'm against government intrusion into private contracts unless a high bar was reached, or clear violations against protected groups were part of it.

Union contracts which otherwise violate no other laws should be allowed to stand. If a company agrees to it then that should be that.

Fact is, unions have lost a lot of power over the last 30 years. Combined with the economic downturn and generally higher worker education, unions contracts are far more equitable than they used to be.
 
135boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Feb 25, 2011, 17:40
I actually agree with #132, while i might agree with Wisconsin trying to break the unions there, I don't think that the government interfering with companies that what to only hire/do business with unions.

The withholding of union dues by the employer seems like a convienience for everyone except for the employer.

probably not the computers are all ready with holding amounts of money what is one more.
 
136Boldwin
      ID: 53147264
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 07:18
It makes it a crime for an employer to require union membership as a condition of employment.

Seems a mite intrusive, to me.
- PD

More intrusive than unions sticking out their palm and saying 'pay me or you can't work'?

Or as I would put it 'pay the parasitic democratic fundraiser who is against everything you believe in' or you can't work.
 
137Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 07:25
Re: 135

From talking to payroll departments it isn't a huge issue, as you're right it is just one more deduction, but it also one more area where an error can occur and the relatively minor cost of writing a check every pay period. The bigger pain comes from when errors occur or union dues change. Any mistake gives the union an excuse to complain and tell their workers how the company is trying to screw them.

How are contracts more equitable? I'm not saying I disagree, I was just looking for some clarification.
 
138Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 07:40
Lessons to be learned from Wisconsin:

You can vote for a Democrat. But they may not show up to work.

When Democrats propose legislation it is often “for the children.” But, when it gets down to it, they could care less about the children, as evidenced by their abandoning the Wisconsin school children during school days.

The teachers union can strike all day and all night in the summer. They choose to protest/strike during school session.

Wisconsin teachers average over $100,000 in compensation for 9 months of work. This is $133,333 on an annual basis. And they’re protesting that is not enough, while school is in session.

Wisconsin doctors will hand out sick leave forms to anybody that asks for one.

The teachers union pay plan is based on longevity and not competency. And they wonder why the U.S. does so poorly in world rankings for math and science.

 
139Mith
      ID: 121412523
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 07:45
I'm no fan of the UFT but if you're blaming them for the state of education in America you're clearly not interested in an honest discussion.
 
140Boldwin
      ID: 53147264
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 07:57
This is $133,333 on an annual basis. And they’re protesting that is not enough, while school is in session.

This is $133,333 on an annual basis. And they’re protesting that is not enough, while school is in session while the people who pay for their bonbons are suffering a depression.

Abandoning their jobs only out of their bleeding heart unselfish concern for the kids, don't you know.

Eat the greedy rich.
 
141Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 08:54
"Bonbons?" Really?

Why do you even come here anymore?
 
142Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 09:09
Wisconsin teachers average over $100,000 in compensation for 9 months of work. This is $133,333 on an annual basis. And they�re protesting that is not enough, while school is in session.

that is an intellectually dishonest and deceiving statement in so many ways.

1. the phrase "compensation" - while you're not being dishonest by using that phrase, you are being misleading. Annual salaries are well under 50k a year. average benefits could conceivably equal 50K to bring it to that 100k "compensation", but that's an awfully high number

nobody says "my annual compensation, including insurance, 401k, etc etc"...people talk about their salaries.


2. that 133K number is complete dishonest. that has nothing to do with anything. their annual packages are what they are, be they 50K, 100K, or any number. you can't just arbitrarily pro-rate salaries and add them on.

3. i know a lot of teachers at the middle school and below level. and i don't know a single one who works 9 months a year and then coasts for three months.

most of them are in their classroom as a month before school starts, setting them up. and then they're doing the same thing when school ends for the year.

and they certainly don't work 9 to 5 like "ordinary" folks. on most days, the teacher i know are at school by 7 am, and because they're doing something like coaching the vocal club or the china club or whatever, they're there until 6 pm. they get to go home, have some dinner with their spouse, and then take 2 to 3 hours grading papers.

try and be a little more honest with your numbers. use salaries because nobody says "hey, i make XXX number of dollars in compensation". don't pro-rate based on things that don't actually happen. remember that teachers are not typical 9 to 5 employees, and remember that most don't have a three month vacation like most people imagine.
 
143Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 09:13
#138: I know you are just reprinting those "facts" so you aren't responsible for them, but didn't you bother to check?

Wisconsin teachers average a little over half of that.

 
144DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 09:51
I'm no fan of the UFT but if you're blaming them for the state of education in America you're clearly not interested in an honest discussion.

We have a winner.

try and be a little more honest with your numbers.

If he used the real numbers, he wouldn't be able to make his argument rationally. Fictional ones work better for that purpose.

Really, guys, it's not even worth discussing with people who don't even want to try to be honest about it, or offer any sensible solutions. (I'm sure the chain email people will issue a correction in a few weeks that says "oops, that $100,000 per year was wrong, it's nowhere near that" to be sent out in 4-point light gray font at the bottom of an email offering heavily discounted Cialis and/or $17.3 million dollars to be liberated from the account of a deceased English lord who died without family in Bangladesh -- but the damage has been done.)
 
145Boldwin
      ID: 53147264
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 09:52
I'm just asking how anyone making more than the national average income dares go on strike during a depression expecting to get public sympathy?
 
146Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 10:00
The $133,000 is for comparative purposes only. Nobody is claiming they all actually do that.

My fringe benefits are about 30% of my salary. This plus my salary equals my total compensation. In Wisconsin, it must me about 100% if they make $50,000 in salary and $100,000 total compensation. They must have a more generous health and retirement plan than me.
 
147Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 10:09
My fringe benefits are about 30% of my salary. This plus my salary equals my total compensation. In Wisconsin, it must me about 100% if they make $50,000 in salary and $100,000 total compensation. They must have a more generous health and retirement plan than me.

and they definitely have a more generous health and retirement plan than me. and probably some of my friends too. what's your point?

seems to me you're suggesting a variation on communism. interesting.
 
148DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 10:21
I had a perfectly rational response typed up to both 145 and 146, but then I realized it'd be like talking to a brick wall. So, instead:

Wisconsin teachers average over $100,000 in compensation for 9 months of work. This is $133,333 on an annual basis. And they’re protesting that is not enough, while school is in session.

The $133,000 is for comparative purposes only. Nobody is claiming they all actually do that.

Um, BS, you just did. Or you're just randomly posting stuff without reading it -- but even then, whoever sent it to you in your chain email is saying it. Then when you got called out for not even coming close to having your facts right (this is a pattern), that's the best you can do?
 
149Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 10:21
Actually, teachers are making about the average salary in Wisconsin.

But the point behind the protests is clear: It is that the Governor wants to take away salary and benefits.

Also, I'm not exactly clear what you mean by "public sympathy" but poll after poll after poll in Wisconsin (and in surrounding states) demonstrate support for public worker collective bargaining rights. Even Dick Morris' own poll showed 54% support for such rights.
 
150Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 10:23
#146: Benefits for teachers are the same--about 30% or so.

The problem was the $100K figure, which is off by almost $50K.
 
151Boldwin
      ID: 53147264
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 10:26
But hey, that's just me. I wonder how longshoremen have the face to ever lift a picket sign.

They should line the dock on their knees thanking God everyday that they are the fatest cats to ever walk the planet without inheriting money, without having the balls to start their own business or without a criminal enterprise.

Not entirely convinced they qualify for that last category.
 
152revvingparson
      ID: 531582611
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 13:20
PD I'm not certain this is a totally accurate statement "...It is that the Governor wants to take away salary and benefits..."

As for health insurance it's two fold:
1. Asking public employees to pay ~12% up from 6%

2. Allowing each individual school district to determine who the health insurance carrier is. Currently through arbitration and/or collective bargaining the union fights to keep teachers on the WEA health trust plan which charges more than most other carriers, what the governor's proposal is asking is that rather than allowing arbitration and/or collective bargaining to determine the plan choice, the employer (individual school districts) can choose which plan to offer their teachers.

How Milton school district saved big $$ on teacher's health care

Another perspective on the matter Oh to be a Wisconsin teacher

As for pensions simply asking them to pay a higher %, again no benefit being taken away.

So the salary package w/their benefits stays in tack.
 
153DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 14:19
Wait... so they have to pay more for what they're getting now, yet it stays intact (sic)?

I guess so, in the same way that if I cut your wages from $11 an hour to $10 an hour, you're still getting wages, so you can't complain about a pay cut... and if that makes no sense to you, then you really need to apply the same logic to what you just said.
 
154walk
      ID: 517172117
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 17:40
Indiana and Wisconsin
 
155Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 18:26
#152: I should be more clear on that point, and will post more later. For now, it is enough to point out that the unions have agreed to most all of the governor's criticisms, i.e., pay reductions plus paying more toward health and other benefits.
 
156Boldwin
      ID: 351122619
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 20:12
For now, it is enough to point out that the unions have agreed to most all of the governor's...

Why shouldn't they when all they have to do is wait for the next Dem legislature in a highly blue leaning state? Just as long as they can keep the positive terminal linked to the negative terminal ready to throw the switch on unsustainable spending.
 
157biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 20:24
I don't know about Wisconsin, but as far as Washington goes, educating our kids is their primary mandate. That's what we elect them to do, and that's where the tax money should be spent. There are Medicare and infrastructure worries as well, but funding education is, or should be, #1.

Washington is completely dropping the ball, short-changing the kids and chronically underfunding schools and under-paying teachers.

They lose repeatedly in court when they are called on their constitutional requirement to fund education, but then they just shrug their shoulders and say they don't have the money. All the while giving billion of tax breaks to corporations - many of which are not even based in the state (or for that matter the country).
 
158Boldwin
      ID: 351122619
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 20:26
Definition of 'unsustainable runaway process'.

California Dems in 1999 [their future already bankrupted back then] reduced the retirement age for public workers, changed base pensions to a higher percentage of a worker's salary and increase benefits retroactively.

Since then California has increased the number of government workers by @40%.

Since then the state worker's wages have increased by 50% and the local [county/city] government workers' income has increased by 60%.

When Dems lose the 'LA TIMES' Editorial page you know they've gone too far overboard by any measure.

But Dems, please do continue using the word 'sustainable' in every other sentence as if the rest of us were 5'yr olds who've never heard of the concept of the future.
 
160DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 20:34
Re: 156 -- So, what ever happened to that 'will of the people' thing, if that's what happens?

Or does 'will of the people' only apply when Republicans are in charge? (Never mind, rhetorical question in your case.)
 
161Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 20:59
One of the biggest problems California has in relation to public employees is the CCPOA - California Correctional Peace Officer Association

-California’s prison system is larger than the US Federal Prison system, and has held about 50% above capacity for years.
-The CCPOA is currently the most politically powerful union in the state. Not the biggest, but they hold the most clout in politics, especially with the wingers and the Governator. Their clout is why Proposition 5, to divert drug offenders from prison and put them into substance abuse treatment(and save hundreds of millions of $), was torpedoed. Prop 5 opponents include all past and wannabe CA governors, who know they cannot alienate this powerful union. And for all the talk about the liberal conspiracy and the evil George Soros (who helped fund Prop 5), the CCPOA had the resources and clout to easily defeat Prop 5. No future gubernatorial candidate, including Jerry Brown, has or will challenge the CCPOA.

- More than 70% of felons released from prison will eventually be ‘violated’ by their parole officers (twice th national average). About half of the 150k prisoners in state prison are so-called ‘violators’. No court or jury put any parole violator back in prison. That happens solely by non-judicial parole officers, upheld by parole committees also composed of correctional officers. All of the state employees involved, other than in the BPT’s administrative appeals, are members of the California Correctional Peace Officers Association. California is also one of the few states to put all offenders- including non-serious, non-violent, on parole after release, and parole lasts for 3 years.-

- Prison Guards, like police officers, eat up disproportionate chunks of city/county/state pay, largely because of excessive overtime payment perks. For example, the City of Vallejo declared bankruptcy, and its city budget
dedicated 70% of all money to firefighters/cops. In San Bernandino County, one police officer’s salary ballooned from 60k to over 100k because of overtime. Roughly one out of 10 California prison guards was paid more than $100,000 last year, fueled largely by a jump in overtime.

Some 2,400 rank-and-file correctional officers’ pay exceeded $100,000 in 2005, compared with 557 the year before, a San Diego Union-Tribune analysis of payroll figures shows.
One guard grossed $187,000, making him the highest-paid correctional officer in California, according to data provided by the state controller’s office.


Perhaps if there were more funds dedicated to education there would be less funds needed for prison guards.

 
162Boldwin
      ID: 351122619
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 23:06
If only California had spent even more money on the public sector, huh?

Why am I not surprised?
 
163Boldwin
      ID: 351122619
      Sat, Feb 26, 2011, 23:31
Moveon.org tried to astroturf up a big one today in support of Wisconsin.

Commenter nails their failure perfectly.
Of course the turnout was poor. Those people ALREADY had today off. — they should have set it up for Monday.

 
164Boldwin
      ID: 351122619
      Sun, Feb 27, 2011, 01:22
 
165Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Feb 27, 2011, 10:08
Just like Lincoln.
 
166wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Sun, Feb 27, 2011, 10:28
Re 164

You mean that there is an ad running in this state that I haven't seen yet?
 
167Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sun, Feb 27, 2011, 10:59
nothing like painting them as criminals. lovely.

not to mention the deceptive placement of the PRO-LABOR demonstrators in the ad.
 
168wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Sun, Feb 27, 2011, 22:13
Update......

There is a report that the Senator mentioned in post 47 will vote no.
 
169Seward Norse
      ID: 297412913
      Mon, Feb 28, 2011, 10:54
Wow, my wife's a teacher too, so we have 2 of these great teacher salaries. Guess I better quit cutting coupons and start buying bonbons!
 
170Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Feb 28, 2011, 11:15
Seward, what's taking you this long? My girl and I, both teachers, bought a couple of Lamborghini's a few years ago. I just couldn't stand to drive a Ferrari anymore. It was embarrassing. Let me know if you need the number of our dealer.
 
171bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Mon, Feb 28, 2011, 12:00
Seward and Farn - so I see you both apparently make $266,666 annually as couples. Must be nice, being in that tax bracket.
 
172DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Feb 28, 2011, 12:28
It sounds good, but those four month vacations really eat into the savings I bet.
 
173Boldwin
      ID: 41102817
      Mon, Feb 28, 2011, 18:06
My best friend outside of my religion has a wife who just graduated and took a special ed teaching assignment in a small town. They mentioned that if she did her job 'too well' she would teach herself out of a job.

This sort of thing isn't frowned upon outside of failed government monopolies.
 
174biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Feb 28, 2011, 18:23
What are you talking about? A teacher can cure autism?
 
175biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Feb 28, 2011, 18:38
So what exactly do these unserious budget cutters propose?

Personally, I would never take a pension in lieu of salary. They can just snatch it away right before you retire, and it's Friskies for you for the next 20 years.

Of course, if you go with the private sector option, 401ks, you are pretty certain to be unable to maintain your standard of living either. Just 25% of those with 401ks iin their sixties have enough saved to do that.

And after you swap your pension for 401ks, there is all sorts of fancy tricks an employer can do to steadily decrease their contribution, as mine has done - 6%, to 4% to 3% match, due to the "ailing economy". Or, as my wife has run into, first the simply change the definition of "match" to mean % of your contribution instead of % of salary. And when that was taking too big a bite on profits, doing away with that tiny farce as well.

The result, we are going to see a lot of homeless octaganarians in a decade or two, if not sooner.
 
176wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Mon, Feb 28, 2011, 21:04


Could you imagine the uproar if this happened in Washington?




Also, we have the first complaint aginst Walker
 
177Wilmer McLean
      ID: 5015685
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 03:20
RE: 9, 12

Walker and fellow Republicans in the Legislature this year gave away $140 million in business tax breaks -- so if there is a deficit projected of $137 million, they created it. -- False (Politifact.com)


Liberal MSNBC talk show host Rachel Maddow joined in Feb. 17, accusing Walker of manipulating the situation for political gain.

"Despite what you may have heard about Wisconsin’s finances, Wisconsin is on track to have a budget surplus this year," she said. "I am not kidding."

She added a kicker that is also making the rounds: Walker and fellow Republicans in the Legislature this year gave away $140 million in business tax breaks -- so if there is a deficit projected of $137 million, they created it.

Maddow and others making the claim all cite the same source for their information -- a Jan. 31, 2011 memo prepared by Robert Lang, the director of the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau.

...

Meanwhile, what about Maddow’s claim -- also repeated across the liberal blogosphere -- that Walker’s tax-cut bills approved in January are responsible for the $137 million deficit?

Lang’s fiscal bureau report and news accounts addressed that issue as well.

The tax cuts will cost the state a projected $140 million in tax revenue -- but not until the next two-year budget, from July 2011 to June 2013. The cuts are not even in effect yet, so they cannot be part of the current problem.

Here’s the bottom line:

There is fierce debate over the approach Walker took to address the short-term budget deficit. But there should be no debate on whether or not there is a shortfall. While not historically large, the shortfall in the current budget needed to be addressed in some fashion. Walker’s tax cuts will boost the size of the projected deficit in the next budget, but they’re not part of this problem and did not create it.

We rate Maddow’s take False.

 
178Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 07:44


The average Milwaukee Public School teacher pulls in over $100 thousand between salary and benefits.
 
179Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 08:33
Again, B7, most people don't talk about 'benefits' when discussing salary and average annual take home. They discuss what the total showing on their paystubs are.

At the same time, considering its public taxpayer dollars being discussed I agree w/ B7 that total compensation needs to be looked at. However, it would be nice to see teacher total compensation compared to others total compensation (as opposed to holding their tc figures up to others salary figures).
 
180walk
      ID: 348442710
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 09:13
How about executive total compensation? I wonder why raising taxes, I mean reverting tax cuts to 39% for the richest 1% is more taboo than undermining union's ability to negotiate? I think this strategy will backfire as it will be portrayed as making main street take cuts in lieu of the wealthy. Government workers are people, too (and hard-working and patriotic).
 
181Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 09:14
I see that the argument now is the sliver of public school teachers in the most expensive city in the state, and that benefits have to be added to make them seem overpaid.

Pretty sad that conservatives seem to be making their final stand that teachers, of all people, are overpaid.
 
182walk
      ID: 348442710
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 09:18
Teachers should be paid very well! I do not get it. They are teachers! Tough, tough job, that is so, so very important. Picking on them? Might as well pick on the military soldier as overpaid if you want to really resonate poorly with citizens. Who thinks of these battles to fight?
 
183Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 09:46
However, it would be nice to see teacher total compensation compared to others total compensation

Like maybe the salaries and benefits of those administrators and salespersons of the private sector health insurance companies that hold the contracts for the teachers' benefits.

Still, one has to wonder how it's possible for there to be a 44 thousand dollar a year benefit package for Milwaukee school teachers, almost double the salary.

Revvingparson's second link from the WSJ in #152 breaks it down. Granted, that's just Milwaukee, and possibly not reflective of the entire state, but I find myself more and more in agreement with this conclusion:

What these numbers ultimately prove is the excessive power of collective bargaining. The teachers' main pension plan is set by the state legislature, but under the pressure of local bargaining, the employees' contribution is often pushed onto the taxpayers. In addition, collective bargaining led the Milwaukee public school district to add a supplemental pension plan—again with no employee contribution. Finally, the employees' contribution (or lack thereof) to the cost of health insurance is also collectively bargained.

As the costs of pensions and insurance escalate, the governor's proposal to restrict collective bargaining to salaries—not benefits—seems entirely reasonable.




 
184Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 10:49
Pretty sad that conservatives seem to be making their final stand that teachers, of all people, are overpaid.

Who is making that claim? I'm not. Their benefits seem a little high.
 
185Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 11:08
Is it possible the salaries are too low for teachers, so spending extra on benefits evens it out?
 
186Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 14:07
I agree with bili. I'd rather get more in salary and less in benefits. Unfortunately, at my current job, I got neither.
 
187Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 14:36
That video likes to play tricks (no surprise). Comparing teacher salary with "per capita income" is just one trick, for example. But continuing to compare apples to oranges in order to show that teachers get too much does a disservice.
 
188Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 16:17
more news out of Wisconsin...

Wisconsin Senate leader meets AWOL Democrats as protests continue

As the hours count down to the budget address of Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, one Republican lawmaker says he crossed state lines to meet with state Senate Democrats who fled in protest of a bill that would curb the collective bargaining rights of most public employees.

Did Wisconsin governor overreach in union battle?

Some political experts have said that Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, in a battle with public employee unions over the right to collective bargaining, has overreached in his attempts to shore up the state's budget shortfall.

"I think it'd be fair to categorize the proposal (to cut union bargaining) as an overreach," said University of Wisconsin-Madison political science professor David Canon. "Maybe the biggest reason for that claim is the fact that he didn't campaign on this."


and from Ohio and Indiana -
Protests grow louder in Ohio, Indiana


As Wisconsin's pro-union protests rage, a huge crowd in Ohio is gathering Tuesday for the event "Rally to Save Ohio's Middle Class." The movement, which reportedly could draw 20,000 people, is being documented live on Facebook. The AFL-CIO also is tweeting the event.

Protesters are demanding lawmakers drop a bill that would end Ohio public employees' right to collective bargaining. An Ohio Senate committee has said it will revise and vote this week on the legislation that would affect about 350,000 state workers, teachers, public safety employees and others.

And in Indiana, lawmakers have stooped to name-calling in a debate the pits union forces against legislators who want to undo union rights.


-----

"Don't mourn, organize!" - Joe Hill

We are seeing his words absolutely put into action here. GOOD FOR THE PEOPLE, because this is truly democracy in action and making our voices heard.

 
189Boldwin
      ID: 1323117
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 18:07
because this is truly democracy in action

How long can they 'legislate' from the 'Leaning Kilt' in Illinois before it's not? A decade? Half a decade?
 
190Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 18:30
Until whenever the Muslims get into the majority, of course.
 
191Wilmer McLean
      ID: 5015685
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 18:36
Full-Time Public Teacher Salary vs. Full-Time Private Teacher Salary 2007-8 ( IES National Center for Education Statistics )
•In 2007–08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600) was higher than the average annual base salary of regular full-time private school teachers ($36,300).

Public School Teachers vs. Private Sector -- Pensions and Social Security Contributions -- ( Educationnext.org )



Sorry about the graph size.
 
192Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 18:57
In 2007–08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600) was higher than the average annual base salary of regular full-time private school teachers

This is no real surprise. Partly this is because a large number of private school teachers are religious, and take nominal salaries. But this is also because special needs and other teachers are concentrated into the public school arena, since private schools are not required to take on those students who require extra labor intensive work.

The problem, of course, is not teachers but the high cost of many administrators, whose jobs seem to entail pushing papers back and forth in a self-justifying orgy of bureaucracy.
 
193Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 19:11
Wilmer - you may think that the opinion piece you linked to by Educationnext is a strong piece of advocacy against teachers' unions, but I was cheering the unions as I read the many great things that they have negotiated for their deserving members.

What I got from it was - "If you were represented by a union, these fair and just benefits could be yours, too."

Thanks for sharing that.
 
194Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 21:24
i'm not even sure what the point of 191 was - the most i got out of it was "wow, less thank 50k?? man, teachers are grossly underpaid..."
 
195biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 06:54
I have a friend who made the choice of teaching private over public for less money, simply because it was a lot easier and more enjoyable job.

He's teaching rich kids, most-all with strong parental guidance and nurturing, and want to learn, and he's given ample resources to do his job.

Teaching in public school, is a hard, hard job.
 
196Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 08:54
While the benefits and pay might not be as good at private school, you get the benefit of teaching (generally) better kids with parents who are invested in their children's education. I would also be interested in knowing how many private school teachers have or are receiving a discounted tuition rate for their children who are attending the school.


 
197boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 11:43
In 2007–08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600)

even at 36k, that is pretty good money considering they get summers off. If you factor that in at 36k job pays like a 43K job. what is ironic is that a professor in education only about 20% more, though they probably work about a month less.
 
198walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 11:46
Taxes should be raised at the state level before teachers' salaries are cut or collective bargaining is made illegal.
 
199DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 11:48
197: And how many hours per day does a teacher actually work? (Hint: If you think "get to school at 7:00, leave at 3:30, lunch in there, so 40 hours/week", you're laughably wrong.)
 
200Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 13:17
boikin - it's a mistaken belief that teachers get summers off. most teachers i know get about a month off between in-service days.

they work longer than average days - my friend Shanan who is the music teacher and choir director at his school sometimes puts in 15-hour days between teaching, practice, and performance.

THEN he goes home and grades papers and tests.
 
201walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 15:01
Yeah, my kids' teachers are working until 5 or 6 at school, and then who knows at night, grading, prepping for class, answering manic parents' emails and voicemails. It seems like they are on-call all day and night, have a very intense job, and often a thankless one (see misdirected fox news stories about teachers' total comp).
 
202boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 16:36
All the teachers I know that teach high school were home by 3:30 and got about 2 months off for summer. There are exceptions for those that coached or what not. but they also go paid extra to do it.

If the pay is so bad and the job so terrible why are is there not a shortage of teachers? I don't see teachers quitting left and right. I know more people talking about quitting their current jobs to go into teaching then quitting teaching to go into another line of work.
 
203DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 16:53
Boikin -- so they went home at 3:30, never graded any homework at any other time or on weekends? In high school?

Either they are the crappiest teachers in the history of the known world or you're completely missing the fact that basically every teacher ever does work at hours other than the times they are physically present at the school, and that saying "they go home at 3:30" and thinking that means "they stop working at 3:30 and flip on Jeopardy with their feet on the coffee table while tossing beers back" is a laughably misguided notion.
 
204walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 17:20
+1 #203.
 
205Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 18:25
re: 202 - I had a Fourth grader tell me last week that they want to be a teacher when they grow up ... "Because they get the whole Summer off, and only work until 3:30".

Followed by a high schooler explaining to this kid that teaching is very hard work, and you generally work 12 hours a day.

Deja vu.
 
206Tree
      ID: 60121615
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 19:09
If the pay is so bad and the job so terrible why are is there not a shortage of teachers?

no one is saying the job is terrible - just that it's hard work. and for some people, the adage that its a noble profession is right on.
 
207Seward Norse
      ID: 13252218
      Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 19:52
High school teacher here. My textbooks are all online. Papers can be graded anywhere. Email can be answered from home. Website can be updated from home. I can believe that a teacher could leave at 3:30, but that doesn't mean the work is done.

Compensation for coaching is so small that it's hardly worth commenting on. But, I was a varsity basketball coach for 9 years, and my $3000 compensation for 4 hour days, 6 days a week, is pretty small stuff.
 
208walk
      ID: 324638
      Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 09:46
NYT, Teachers Wonder Why the Scorn
 
209DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 16:35
For those wondering what the pension system really costs, someone put together a useful (IMO) exposition here.
 
210Boldwin
      ID: 44251317
      Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 18:51
Teachers Wonder Why the Scorn

Then let's hire teachers smart enuff to understand budgets.
 
211Boldwin
      ID: 21227318
      Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 20:01
Or teachers who can understand this:

"The main function of American trade unions is collective bargaining. It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government." - AFL-CIO president George Meany
 
212Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 20:05
#210: The unions have already agreed to pay and benefit cutbacks proposed by the governor, and have agreed to contribute more toward pensions and health care costs.

In fact the only thing they haven't agreed to is the governor's demand that they cease to exist.

There seem to be a lot of words about this whole process you're missing in your zeal to give cover to an overreaching state governor.
 
213Boldwin
      ID: 55249323
      Fri, Mar 04, 2011, 01:01
He hasn't even asked them to give up 'collective bargaining' [with their bought and paid for buddies] over pay, only ancillary benefits.

I wish he would fix the whole problem.
 
214Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 04, 2011, 10:26
Ladies and Gentlemen: Your small government at work.

I guess we can add "Democratic legislators" to the list of problems to be fixed.


He hasn't even asked them to give up 'collective bargaining'

It isn't clear that you've been following this issue closely enough. Governor Walker's proposal is that the unions can only bargain for pay raises which does not exceed CPI. They cannot bargain for any other compensation or benefits.

In other words, the unions are permitted to ask for pay raises for their members which can match inflation. Oh, and they have to be re-certified yearly.

Walker has been very clear what his aims are. Luckily, most people in the country, and in Wisconsin, are rejecting his ham-fisted overreach.
 
215Boldwin
      ID: 3216412
      Fri, Mar 04, 2011, 14:07
Can you imagine what FDR would have said to a public union demanding more than that during the Great Depression? Or what the stockbroker selling apples would have told them?
 
216Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Fri, Mar 04, 2011, 15:13
i will continue to believe this nation is heading toward an (un)civil war. the violence, rhetoric, and actions continue to escalate. the shooting of a congresswoman two months ago did nothing to change anything, except for some nice gestures.

Cops tackle lawmaker amid layoff threats, detention order
 
217walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Mar 04, 2011, 16:09
A reader's comment lifted from the article linked in #216:

America is headed in a really bad direction. We are asking people making $50 K (plus benefits) to give up part of their benefits and their ability to defend themselves collectively in the future. On the flip side, people are making millions of dollars are out buying toys that cost more than the salaries of the people who are educating our next generation. Our priorities are so screwed up that we don't know which way is up anymore. Thanks Fox "News"!!! It's awesome how you've convinced millions of lower middle class (slipping into low income levels or even poverty) Americans to vote against themselves so that the ultra-rich will have even a bigger piece of the pie and not have to use that wealth to help the society that gave them their opportunities.
 
218Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Mar 04, 2011, 17:17
We are asking people making $50 K (plus benefits) to give up part of their benefits and their ability to defend themselves collectively in the future

Individually I'm paid in that ballpark and I don't get collective bargaining rights. I do just fine. I'm not sure where this belief that they must have collective bargaining to not be stomped into the ground came from. Its erroneous.

With that said, I don't have a problem with them having collective bargaining for certain things. I also don't have a big deal about them losing collective bargaining on other issues. Not going to get into the nitty gritty details because they are irrelevant to my bigger point that the idea of collective bargaining being necessary to survival is false. Its helpful. Its useful. In some industries/cases its more necessary than others.

On the flip side, people are making millions of dollars are out buying toys that cost more than the salaries of the people who are educating our next generation

Its a nice sentiment to pay our cops and firefighters and educators more than anybody else. So where will the millions of dollars in income come from? Or should the people that are in jobs which do earn that much not enjoy the fruits of their labors?

Can't really compare the CEO's of billion dollar corporations to teachers anymore than you can compare private teachers to public teachers. Its a hollow, heart-tugging argument that really holds no water.

Let the teachers have collective bargaining rights for their salaries. Its a good thing for the education system of each state. But other special benefits - I save my for my retirement by putting my own money out of my own paycheck into an IRA. My job at a small business doesn't provide any retirement savings. But my taxes suddenly should pay for somebody elses? No. Let them save for their retirement or find a job that pays for it. Or have a standardized government employee plan. But having a collective bargaining power to walk out on my kids education so my tax money can pay for your retirement when you aren't doing your job by walking out in the first place is wrong.

 
219Boldwin
      ID: 3216412
      Fri, Mar 04, 2011, 17:21
Thanks Fox "News"!!!

The Reagan majority of Americans who believe capitalism works better for all classes finally got a news outlet not run by marxist greed-heads like that poster. Thanks indeed. Fox didn't create that audience. It took capitalists way too many decades to fill that need.
 
220DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Mar 04, 2011, 17:41
Picture faster than a thousand word response
 
221Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Mar 05, 2011, 20:25
 
222wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Sun, Mar 06, 2011, 08:25
Re 213 and 214

Perm Dude is right. Walker even said so in a letter to employees.
 
223wolfer
      ID: 81372819
      Sun, Mar 06, 2011, 10:35
Thanks Fox "News"!!!

A marshals take of what happened with Fox News in Madison.
 
224Boldwin
      ID: 48259616
      Sun, Mar 06, 2011, 18:28
Twenty-nine rounds of ammunition found in the cleanup.
 
225Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 08:56
The Indiana Democrats will start being fined $250 for each day missed as they start the 3rd week of refusing to report.

Unlike Wisconsin's Walker, Governor Daniels has indicated a willingness to negotiate, so why aren't they willing to come back?
 
226Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 09:11
Troubling, but I have no idea why you think that's an effective response to a growing pile of evidence that FOX has been active trying to make the protestors falsely appear violent.

This is two full steps further than what you claim the liberal media does at Tea Parties; that they falsely portrayed them as unhinged, angry and bigoted, by showcasing the (many, many) unhinged, angry and bigoted people among them and not giving fair time to the majority who are lucid and reasonable.

The first step further is the advancement from falsely depicting a crowd as unhinged, angry and bigoted (as the accusation went) to depicting a crowd as actually physically violent.

The second step is FOX (which doesn't have the luxury of showcasing any actual violence, unlike the hours and hours of video of unhinged, angry and bigoted tea partiers out there) has to actually invent occurrances violence to "report".
 
227Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 09:12
226 responds to 224.
 
228Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 09:16
#225: If I had to guess, it is because the bill in question is still open in the Senate, and the Indiana Senate hasn't shown Daniels' willingness to negotiate.
 
229walk
      ID: 348442710
      Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 09:31
When news organizations report information in a biased way, it's propaganda. Fox News is one the more extreme examples of making propaganda in the guise of reporting news. It's pretty transparent. What is compelling are the folks who are susceptible to such propaganda. I hope it's mostly people who are seeking validation for views that are already aligned to those espoused by the Fox news Party. I would wonder though why the Fox Party would be careless in getting caught making obvious mistakes using incorrect footage (the palm trees thing, for example) which potentially runs the risk of alientating their base, based on the embarrassment of supporting a view based one lies, distortion and exaggeration (maybe it does not...).
 
230Boldwin
      ID: 51232710
      Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 11:39
Those palm tree protests? Context is everything and you had to see the entire hour, not just the you tube clip.

[not a conservative source] Yes you dare actually expose yer delicate eyes and worldview to it.
 
231Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 12:11
I saw that a few days ago, but it is a real stretch. The video is playing at the very same time that the speaker is saying that the protests in Wisconsin are violent. What other conclusions is the viewer expected to make? That the protests are not, in fact, violent but the video in the background (which was never identified as being from a different state) shows something other than what is spoken of onscreen?

If this was a liberal outlet showing a video of some other protests while talking about how tea party rallies are turning violent, you'd be all over them. And with good reason.

Here's my suggestion: Find your ethical grounding. And stick with it despite the political leanings of those you would comment upon.
 
232Boldwin
      ID: 51232710
      Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 23:28
Find your ethical grounding - Catholic in the abortion party.
 
233Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 00:40
As a JW, you really have no standing in telling any Catholic what they should believe or not. Surely I need not link to your own Church's past bigoted views on Catholicism through its media?

Of the two major political parties in this country, only one works for the poor, tries to end the death penalty, fights for justice for those not born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and works to end ongoing racism and sexism.

I'm Catholic because I believe in Jesus' teachings and find its fullest expressions in the Church. I'm a Democrat (and pro-life, for that matter) because I find that those most needing our help have been shoved aside by those in power and cry out for help. And those who would be apologists for bullies are disinclined to use the tools of social action to enact any real place of justice here, preferring, when pressed, to make justice some kind of private matter--a byproduct of a free market system where a government is best which ensures businesses get what they want.

A GOP which favors the death penalty for teens, the torture of anyone at all, the celebration of confrontation, and is best described as a place where Jesus' message of love is mocked if the suggestion is made to show such love to anyone different, is not going to be a place for someone like myself who takes Jesus' requirement to love seriously.

Your caricatures of Catholicism and the Democratic Party aren't even worthy of debate anymore. It comes from your lack of grounding.

The GOP would be a lot more effective in its pro-life message if it wasn't full of pricks about all the other issues.
 
234Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 01:00
if there were "like" button on this message board, i'd like the above post a million times over.
 
235walk
      ID: 348442710
      Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 13:26
#233 = wow!
 
236walk
      ID: 348442710
      Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 13:28
Jon Stewart sorta says the pro lifers, who tend to be dominated in one poli party, are pro life -- from conception to birth. After that, not so much.
 
237boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 14:26
Of the two major political parties in this country, only one works for the poor, tries to end the death penalty, fights for justice for those not born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and works to end ongoing racism and sexism.

there's one?
 
238Boldwin
      ID: 29257915
      Wed, Mar 09, 2011, 17:27
only one works for the poor

I suppose you think that is the one which tries to get everyone to 'spend down' to abject poverty whereupon they can apply for permanent government handouts and no hope of ever rising above poverty?

Sure, join the one third of America living on handouts and kiss Robinhood's ring.

tries to end the death penalty

Non-partisan issue. If you could find a worthy judicial system to apply it, maybe not then.

fights for justice for those not born with a silver spoon in their mouths

By putting a planned parenthood abortion mill in every poor section of town?

By flooding the job market with foreign competitors?

By stifling job creation?

By putting up red tape obstacles to first time entreprenuers?

By cutting off the lowest rung of the ladder?

and works to end ongoing racism and sexism

You'd still be saying that long after they passed a constitutional amendment limiting political office, media access and business administration to black and hispanic women.
 
239Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Mar 09, 2011, 18:10
Non-partisan issue. If you could find a worthy judicial system to apply it, maybe not then.

Yes, this should be non-partisan. But is isn't, is it? In a partially-dysfunctional system, we should all be working toward taking the death penalty off the table, instead of trying to apply it to more and more crimes as the GOP is wont to do. I can't possibly support a party which tries to expand the death penalty through a system with faults.

As for the rest, it seems your typical misunderstanding of the Democratic Party's stands on the issues is getting you in trouble again in your analysis.
 
240Boldwin
      ID: 29257915
      Wed, Mar 09, 2011, 18:54
I can guarantee you the democrats never did a thing for this poor person. Other than make me poor.
 
241Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Wed, Mar 09, 2011, 19:05
I can guarantee you the democrats never did a thing for this poor person. Other than make me poor.

i'm pretty sure you're missing the mark completely on the definition of "poor person".
 
242wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Wed, Mar 09, 2011, 20:26
Meanwhile, back in Wisconsin, there are recall campaigns for EVERY senator that is eligble to be recalled.
 
243wolfer
      ID: 27239922
      Wed, Mar 09, 2011, 23:39
I guess Boldwin gets his wish...........
 
244Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Wed, Mar 09, 2011, 23:55
lovely. violation of open meeting laws. i'm interested in Baldwin's take on it, since by nearly everything he proclaims on this board, he's got to be a believer in open meeting laws...
 
245Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Wed, Mar 09, 2011, 23:59
I am really looking forward to the record # of recalls this summer. That state hasn't even begun to see chaotic yet...
 
246Boldwin
      ID: 29257915
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 02:33
That is one of the most ludicrous accusations ever.

Any meeting with protesters in the gallery isn't closed in any sense of the word.

Further when Dems are so worried about being dragged to that meeting by state troopers that they insist the governor meet them 'alone' on the state line to negotiate a return to that meeting, they are clearly not 'barred from the meeting' in the Wisconsin Senate.

Just a word to the wise, and democrats...when union thugs insist you come to a meeting alone, don't go.
 
247Boldwin
      ID: 29257915
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 04:21
Further people who just asked the governor to meet with them alone to cut a deal...have no standing to complain about closed meetings.
 
248Boldwin
      ID: 29257915
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 04:34
BTW, get used to republicans saving the taxpayers in tiny increments.

The MSM and their democrats won't allow republicans to cut spending unless it is is done slowly and piecemeal so that there is no one point at which they can be falsely accused of shutting down the government.

You just know that Dems and the media are planning the same walkout stunt on the national level just as they did when Republicans last threatened to cut spending, in the Clinton years.
 
249Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 07:06
Any meeting with protesters in the gallery isn't closed in any sense of the word.

well, unless the law requires a 24-hour posting of said meeting. period.
 
250Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 08:08
when Dems are so worried about being dragged to that meeting by state troopers

Funny stuff. Yes. they were worried that a ham-fisted governor would try to have a legislator arrested in order to ram through his political agenda. For good reason--that is exactly what he threatened to do.

BTW, get used to republicans saving the taxpayers in tiny increments.

Enjoy your short time at the top. Then get used to getting voted out, enmasse, and not having any idea why. Being wrong, and paternalistic, isn't going to help move a conservative agenda along when you insist on overreach combined with confrontationalistic tactics.
 
251Tree
      ID: 60121615
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 08:25
post 245 is the bottom line. 16 up for recall, 8 dems and 8 republicans.

would not be surprised to see this power grab hurt the republicans big time in Wisconsin - and perhaps have a strong effect nationwide.
 
252Boldwin
      ID: 37246108
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 12:01
Education, Obama style:
1) Set the marks up for a regulatory hit.

2) Lobby the Education Dept for stricter regulations.

3) Ask the Education Dept for inside information.

4} Compile damaging report.

5) Take a short position.

6} Hector DOE officials about target institution.

7) Call your buddies in the hedge fund industry.

8) Call the papers.

9) Rub hands in anticipation and glee.

10) Collect.

11) Rinse and repeat.
Hope or change?
 
253Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 12:19
Ugh, right. Lobbyists trying to work the DOE for their clients? Who knew? And Obama proposes rules that for-profit "colleges" need to stop lying to their students--this is a bad thing?

Only on "Everything Obama Does is Bad" planet.
 
254Boldwin
      ID: 37246108
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 12:56
Snakes like Manuel Asensio and Steve Eisman, the predatory short seller whose exploits riding America down in flames in the sub-prime mortgage meltdown became the subject of the book 'The Big Short'...

...are now defaming and lobbying for greater regulatory burden on for-profit education and then taking short positions on private education. The Obama admin to no one's surprise favors public education which is in desperate straights.

Public education is lobbying the Obama DOE for less regulation and red tape in order that they might survive the depression.

One more organized attack on the capitalist system. Never let a crisis go to waste. Keep ratcheting towards big government and away from free enterprise.
 
255Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 14:26
good to see your liberal sensibilities coming out.

you're walking arm-in-arm with the very much left-leaning Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington in your criticism of Eisman.

you'll get no argument that Eisman is pretty much a scum bag. however, your attempt to include Obama in this is just as shaky as most of your other attemps as well.
 
256Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 14:35
For-profit schools are huge scams. Any efforts to get them to provide services with above-board information to potential customers is a big plus.

Yeah, I get it--regulation is bad. When a Democrat proposes it.
 
257Boldwin
      ID: 37246108
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 15:19
Yale, Harvard and Stanford...scam artists, huge ones. I see.
-------------
Eisman is pretty much a scum bag. however, your attempt to include Obama in this... - T
"...the Indago Group and Mr Eisman formed alliances with a small group of non-profits...[public colleges - B]...seeking to ensure that Education [DOE - B] adopted the most stringent regulations of the for-profit education industry, particularly the gainful employment rules [which one rule would eliminate the bulk of government financing to for-profit schools - B]...

...This group had an enormous impact on the scope and direction of the regulations and Education officials essentially allowed the group to function as agency officials, completely eviscerating the line between the agency and outside groups pursuing their own agenda.
So Obama let the guy who made the greatest short sale trades in history on the back of the sub-prime mortgage situation, design the second short sale insider trading bonanza, this time crippling private education during a depression.
 
258Boldwin
      ID: 37246108
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 15:26
BTW six Wisconsin school bus drivers made over $100K in 2010. One made $159,000.

Working for the children.
 
259wolfer
      ID: 25521311
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 15:53
Re 258

Source?
 
260Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 15:55
Yale, Harvard and Stanford...scam artists, huge ones. I see.

except those aren't the schools in question...nor are they in the article you linked to.

Instead, it's schools such as Corinthian Colleges and Education Management Corporation.
 
261Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 16:08
One made $159,000.

Working for the children.


Then they came for the facts, and I did not speak up...


Average Milwaukee school bus driver salary: $23000
 
262DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 16:16
Don't worry, Boldwin won't mention that that was as a result of a hiring freeze leaving them woefully shorthanded, so a number of drivers picked up a bunch of overtime to pick up the slack. Once the city realized that it was actually cheaper to hire more workers instead of paying the few that they have overtime, they ended the hiring freeze, problem solved.

The only possible gripe is that senior (and presumably better paid) drivers were given the first opportunity at the overtime, and a few of them decided to pick up as many hours as they could -- because, well, the city was dumb enough to try to pay someone overtime instead of paying someone else regular time, thereby increasing their own costs.

Naturally, this is all the union's fault according to the right wing blogosphere.
 
263Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 16:20
of course, you can understand the oversights in 257 and 258.

i mean, it's a perfectly innocent mistake, right? accidently mentioning schools that aren't involved, and adding the word "bus" to completely change the facts?

unintentional, i'm sure.
 
264Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 16:30
I don't get why you guys continue to point out all the lies that Boldy puts out there. You are supposed to blindly accept everything he says as pure fact. To actually research his lies and then provide the real truth is totally unfair.
 
265DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 17:54
In my defense, I'd already heard all about that one well before Bololololdy tried coming on with 10% of the story. Preemptive research is still allowed, right?
 
266wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 20:26
So can I use the home field advantage as my defense?
 
267DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 20:41
Only on weekdays during non-Daylight Savings time. So get it out of your system.
 
268Boldwin
      ID: 37246108
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 20:41
School bus driver used to be a low low paying low hour part-time job for housewives picking up a little fun money.

Not $159,000 in a year.
 
269Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 20:55
Except he's not a school bus driver.

Sticking to your story is great for religious dogma. Not so much for Ann Coulter fables.
 
270bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 21:17
So Boldwin, how much do you believe this particular bus driver should have been paid?
 
271Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 21:53
School bus driver used to be a low low paying low hour part-time job for housewives picking up a little fun money.

Not $159,000 in a year.


show us the school bus driver in question making 159K a year. you couldn't even provide a link - so instead, someone else did, showing you were off the mark by quite a bit.

and somehow you missed that?
 
272wolfer
      ID: 27239922
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 21:55
Re 245

So does this count as a prequel?

One of the contributors to Walkers campaign was hit and hit hard today.
 
273Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 22:49
School bus driver used to be a low low paying low hour part-time job for housewives picking up a little fun money.

Again. Living in the 60s. You do realize that people care about who they leave their kids with in the 21st century.
 
274DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Mar 10, 2011, 23:06
School bus driver used to be a low low paying low hour part-time job for housewives picking up a little fun money.

And they used to get hit by trains more often than one would like, so we figured out it was a bad idea.
 
275Boldwin
      ID: 57225113
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 04:30
John E. Nelson made $159,000 in 2009 dabbling in a little part-time school bus driving.

Yeah there was overtime involved. So what? When unions 'negotiate' with the guy who couldn't get elected without their campaign contributions the outcome is predictably insane.
 
276Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 07:41
John E. Nelson made $159,000 in 2009 dabbling in a little part-time school bus driving.


yes, that's the same name from PD's article.

and you realize NOWHERE IN EITHER ARTICLE, INCLUDING THE ONE YOU LINKED TO, does it say Nelson drove a school bus - in fact, both say he was a city bus driver.

your article just includes the intentionally misleading photograph of a school bus.
 
277Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 08:11
Probably worth noting that Mr. Nelson, of course, is a municipal employee and is unaffected by the bill just passed.
 
278Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 08:15
facts? we don't need no stinking facts around here!

(waiting for Baldwin to post a THIRD link about Nelson's salary as a city bus driver, not a school bus driver)
 
279Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 08:25
Was the bill that passed in Wisconsin only for school employees, or did it cover all public employees?
 
280Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 08:35
It covered all state employees except firefighters, state troopers, and municipal police.

It doesn't cover employees for other municipal entities.
 
281bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 09:11
So Boldwin, how much do you believe this particular bus driver should have been paid?
 
283Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 10:10
I'm not sure what Baldwin means by "so what" so I'd invite him to provide a little more info on his point, like bibA in #281.

The city was required to pay him overtime pay, so I don't believe that is the issue. The problem stems from the fact that his base rate was so high because of his seniority (in other words, it was time and a half of his regular high rate).
 
284DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 10:25
I fail to see the problem with that. Isn't normal overtime pay in whatever sector of the universe you work in time and a half? And don't most businesses pay senior workers more than rookies in the same position? I mean, "yeah, overtime was involved, so what" is such a laughably ridiculous copout that I can't even fathom what kind of twisted evil can come up with it and not be trolling. News flash: you work longer hours, you get paid more. This is not unique to the bus drivers union.

To smear this as a union problem is ridiculous. Don't want to pay a bunch of overtime? Easy solution, have enough workers on staff so you don't have to. Blame the city for that.

Blame the worker for, gasp, working harder and expecting to be paid for it? I thought that was the American dream, work hard, get paid for it? If the company you work for says "hey, we have extra work that needs to be done, we'll pay you more than usual for doing the same work, only longer", don't get pissed at someone for taking it. Supply and demand, after all. Shortage of bus workers on staff (created by the employer, mind you) = higher cost for the bus workers. Here's a brilliant idea, if you think driving a bus is such easy work and is vastly overpaid by the market, take advantage of the free market and become a bus driver instead of what you're doing now. Isn't THAT the conservative mantra, or was that all BS too?

I mean, I know, it's a public bus, and most right-wingers think that stuff like public transportation is completely worthless and should be replaced by more bombers and barbed wire fences in the budget to keep the poor safely at bay in the first place -- but if he wants to be angry at someone, be angry at the amateur mathematician who thought that paying overtime for existing bus drivers would be cheaper than hiring new ones.
 
287Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 10:34
When one is convinced that Ann Coulter is more concerned with truth and accuracy than promoting her celebrity, which has been in serious decline for several years, then one has little interest in tackling real problems with real solutions. If Coulter was at all concerned about taxpayer money, why didn't she make a big deal about billions that disappeared into private contractors' pockets after the invasion of Iraq? I believe she described those who pointed out that egregious theft as traitors. One hundred fifty grand is a big deal, but 9 billion?

The link in #275, from The Patriot Update, reveals just how much they play on emotion with this ad prominently displayed above the article:

Exposed: Obama to Squander Your Retirement

Clicking on the link gives absolutely no evidence that Obama is squandering anyone's retirement, it's an ad for penny stocks, which proclaims that a $200 investment will make you a millionaire practically overnight. Here's the evidence that Obama is squandering your retirement.
Obama and his cronies are stealing your wealth through a series of under the radar money grabs....like inflation, health care and banker bailouts.

Anyone who thinks that making an outrageously slanderous political statement in an effort to sell some stock is representative of patriotism, doesn't understand the meaning of patriotism. It's almost comical for Boldwin to speak of Soros's propaganda mills, when he is so deeply entrenched in propaganda based solely on emotional appeal. Make no mistake. Exposed: Obama to Squander Your Retirement is propaganda in its purest form. The truth is that the S&P 500 has almost doubled since Obama took office, and most retirement plans are directly tied to the performance of the markets.

Patriot update and Ann Coulter - frauds.



 
288Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 10:36
#284: The problem is that only those people making the highest pay rate were able to get those overtime hours, which unnecessarily inflated the budget. A guy making half the top rate would have dropped down the total by quite a bit, in other words.

The union required that those making the highest rate be offered the overtime first. Now, there are lots of perks to seniority, but the ability to grab all the overtime hours shouldn't be one of them.

Now, DW, before you go all progressive on me, let me remind you that there were hundreds of other drivers, many of them making a lot less money but struggling to raise a family, who were shut out of any overtime pay. Letting the wealthiest bus drivers grab all the overtime as a result of a union rule is wrong from a progressive standpoint as well as a budgetary one.
 
289DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 11:04
Meh. I see both sides of that particular issue. In some sense, I agree that letting one guy rack up all the overtime isn't terribly egalitarian, or cost effective. It wouldn't be unreasonable to put in rules limiting the amount of overtime in a week. In fact, it's probably a spectacular idea due to safety concerns. However, even if you did the reverse and offered OT only to your less experienced workers, this sort of situation could well arise.

The flip side of letting the employer determine who does the overtime is that at some point, it becomes less expensive (not necessarily "better", of course) to fire your senior employees and then put a hiring freeze in, if those senior employees make at least 1.5x what the newest hires do (which isn't an outlandish expectation). And that's something that the senior workers really ought to be protected from, IMO.

Letting the senior hires have first crack at overtime is both a perk of seniority and a disincentive to the employer to make people work a ton of overtime. In this case, the employer didn't heed that disincentive, and an employee who valued working a LOT of overtime (do the math, http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_24af32d4-13f4-11df-86b2-001cc4c002e0.html "The bus drivers' contact, which calls for pay up to $26.02 an hour) took advantage. You have to work a LOT of overtime to make $159,000 per year at $26.02 per hour base pay.

And it's not like you can have five bus drivers work one hour longer to finish a project (as you could at some other business settings), where this sort of thing wouldn't be a big deal -- you pretty much have to have one guy do it.

So, could there be a change that would make this somewhat less of a problem? Yeah, sure, I'm not opposed to this.

Would that have meant that the city would have spread some overtime pay around (thus taking away some, but far from all, of their overtime expense, but taking all of the "ZOMG $159,000" headline away) and probably saved a little in the process? Okay, probably a good idea.

Could the city have prevented essentially all of this problem and saved on essentially all of the overtime expense under the existing contract with the union by not putting in a stupid hiring freeze on their own? Obviously, but you won't hear the right wingers put any blame on stupid hiring practices.

Does it amount to 5% of how laughable it is that "ZOMG $159,000 SCHOOL BUS DRIVERS UNIONS UNIONS UNIONS HAVE TO BE OBLITERATED FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH" is even considered worthy of discussion? Not even close.
 
290Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 11:12
The flip side of letting the employer determine who does the overtime is that at some point, it becomes less expensive (not necessarily "better", of course) to fire your senior employees

Where are you making this jump? Employers don't gain the ability to fire anyone because of rules about who is offered OT opportunity.
 
291DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 11:34
Where are you making this jump? Employers don't gain the ability to fire anyone because of rules about who is offered OT opportunity.

Most states have "at will" hiring practices, which means that in the absence of any union contract at all to protect senior employees, it's far from a leap to assume that "laying off" (i.e. firing) senior workers to bring in cheaper employees who might have to work overtime (which is still cheaper than paying their experienced workers regular pay) would happen.
 
292Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 11:41
I also don't want to overstate things, but as the son of a municipal bus driver, the total overtime budget can easily be blown away by the union rule in question.

Say for example, there are 10,000 overtime hours total over the year total. Drivers can make (depending on seniority) between, say $25 and $70/hour.

Requiring the high priced drivers to get first crack at those hours would mean overtime pay of $700K, plus the additional costs & benefits which accrue as does income (company pension contributions, etc). Moving just a portion of that to the other drives will lower, by quite a bit, the total numbers.

I realize it was all a one-time thing--that rule was put in place when OT was scarce and I'm sure it will be modified to limit the OT any individual driver can make.


Most states have "at will" hiring practices,

That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a unionized municipal driving workforce working under a union contract. The municipalities don't have the ability to fire at-will.
 
293Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 11:45
i have a problem with Baldwin's continued loose play with facts. he adds words and changes meaning to suit his argument. i can't remember the last time a "fact" he present was actually something as accurate as represented.

and when called on it, he ignores it.
 
294DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 11:49
Me too Tree, but liars gonna lie. (We've moved well beyond the "innocent mistake" stage.)
 
295walk
      ID: 324638
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 15:15
#287, and Obama did not bail out any bankers....Bush did. Obama is the one that passed financial reform, which the bushed bailed out bankers did not like too much (facetiousness intended).
 
296DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 17:44
Walk, never let facts get in the way of the "truth"!
 
297Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 17:50
Obama voted in favor of TARP. Obama did vote to bail out the bankers.
 
298Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 18:11
Obama voted in favor of TARP. Obama did vote to bail out the bankers.

Yes, but the claim is that

Obama and his cronies are stealing your wealth through a series of under the radar money grabs....like inflation, health care and banker bailouts.

If you buy into this statement, then you deserve the kind of financial advice you're gonna get. Investing is sort of like betting on sports. The first thing you need to do is not let your natural inclination to invest in teams you like(or bet against teams you don't like) overcome reality. Lying about the President automatically disqualifies a person from giving objective advice about investing in my book. And it certainly doesn't make you a "patriot."

 
299DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 18:11
I suppose you are technically correct.

I hereby propose that we call it the Sununu bailouts instead. Any problem with that, B7?
 
300Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 20:12
I could care less what you call it.

The claim in post #295 is that Obama did not bail out any bankers. IMO, TARP would not have passed without Obama's support. And McCane could have won if he had voted against it.
 
301wolfer
      ID: 81372819
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 20:59
You got to be kidding.........

So which "bill" did Walker sign? There are differences in the bill that the Senate passed and the one that the Assembly passed.
 
302Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 21:31
From Wolfer's link:

Here's the language in the second version of the document:

1. SALE AND CONTRACTUAL OPERATION OF STATE-OWNED POWER PLANTS
Governor: Allow the Department of Administration (DOA) to sell any state-owned heating, cooling, or power plant or contract with private entities for the operation of any such plant,
with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount the Department determines to be in the best
interest of the state.

As a reminder, that power plant provision points directly to Koch Industries, who is already advertising for power plant managers.


To answer the question posed,

"No, I don't think they're kidding. However, it's doubtful the good people of Wisconsin will put up with Walker's attempt to establish a plutocracy for very long."

 
303Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 11, 2011, 22:28
And McCane could have won if he had voted against it.

Not as long as Palin was on the ticket.
 
304J-Bar
      ID: 562311123
      Sat, Mar 12, 2011, 00:31
Plutocracy --hahahahaahahahahahaahahha
 
305walk
      ID: 517172117
      Sat, Mar 12, 2011, 09:15
Gov't Impact on UND Nickname

Posting this likely in the wrong thread, yet I find it most interesting given all of the hooplah on the right about smaller government. How is this not gov't over-reach?
 
306Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 11:46
It is not over-reach when it coincides with my ideals.

/sarcasm

 
307Boldwin
      ID: 16216146
      Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 12:34
Tell it to the TitleIX'ed Chief Illiniwick.
 
308Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 15, 2011, 01:39
Wisconsin Senate Majority Leader: Despite coming back, Democratic votes won't count in committees
 
309Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Tue, Mar 15, 2011, 08:00
At this point I can't imagine what Wisconsin Republicans are attempting. Neither political party has enough of a majority to win elections solely with their main constituents. I have a hard time thinking that any moderate undecided is going to look at the Republican actions as anything other than atrocious.

I hope they enjoy their time at the top, because I see a very large hole they are going to need to dig themselves out of in the future.
 
310DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Mar 15, 2011, 16:43
Re: 308, sanity seems to have prevailed.

link
 
311Tree, not at home
      ID: 3910441615
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 15:27
Judge blocks contentious Wisconsin union law


Dane County District Judge Maryann Sumi granted the temporary restraining order in response to a lawsuit filed by the local Democratic district attorney alleging that Republican lawmakers violated the state's open meetings law by hastily convening a special committee before the Senate passed the bill.
 
312boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 16:53
This whole thing seems like the health care bill all over again.
 
313Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 17:15
Except that Obama ran on health care reform.
 
314boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 18:02
Thats what makes it so funny, both it just goes to show that everyone plays the same game.
 
315Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 18:11
If that were true, then it would be like Obama suddenly trying to force through some large change in the way the government runs only after he got elected--never a word beforehand.

Say what you want about health care: Obama was quite clear what he wanted to do long before he got to the Oval Office.
 
316Boldwin
      ID: 202591810
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 19:11
Walker wasn't clear he meant to take a hatchet to the budget?
 
317Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 18, 2011, 19:22
Don't pretend you are stupid (you aren't). Walker said nothing about breaking up the unions.

The unions gave in to everything Walker asked of them, except to cease to exist. Walker is like a dominant dog who continues to bite at another completely submissive dog. Getting cheered on by the Michael Vicks of the political world isn't helping him to see the problem, either.
 
318Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 13:10
I would agree with your assessmwent PD. The unions were willing to grant Walker the promises he made during his campaign. He seems to feel that he needs to go further and has become a bully that no one likes, except for his little clique of friends.

 
319Boldwin
      ID: 202591810
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 15:43
"except for his little clique of friends."

This is what democracy looks like. That 'little clique' elected him.
 
320Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 15:51
Hardly. The fact that he is hugely unpopular means that many, many people who voted for him disagree enough with what he is doing to state that they would not vote for the guy--only a few months after he was elected.

Even money he faces recall in a year.
 
321Boldwin
      ID: 202591810
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 16:40
See Mitch Daniels, R. governor Indiana. Went down the same path. Very popular.
 
322Boldwin
      ID: 202591810
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 16:43
Granted Indiana is not a 'People's Republic'.
 
323Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 16:56
Daniels lost popularity among Republicans, but held steady with Dems and independents.

That's because the Republicans are less interested in celebrating good government and more interested in confrontation for its own sake.
 
324sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 18:56
Michigan Gov wants to tax retiree pensions, to provide corporate tax cuts

Not Wisconsin, but ominously similar to what is going on in WI, IN....
 
325Boldwin
      ID: 202591810
      Sat, Mar 19, 2011, 19:01
PD

Dems were just fine with the status quo pre-Daniels. Back when schools had to call the union hall to move a copier.
 
326walk
      ID: 348442710
      Tue, Mar 22, 2011, 08:56
Wisconsin's Radical Break

Interesting read from a professor at the University of Wisconsin–Madison.
 
327sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Wed, Mar 23, 2011, 07:04
brilliant piece. Thanks for that one walk.
 
328DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Mar 23, 2011, 12:59
Agreed, thanks for a refreshing article that involves logic. It's a pleasant change.
 
329Boldwin
      ID: 46243212
      Wed, Mar 23, 2011, 22:49
What does it take to get a recusal?

WISCONSIN’S JUDGE SUMI:

“Her son is a political operative who also happens to be a former lead field manager with the AFL-CIO and data manager for the SEIU State Council. Both the SEIU and the AFL-CIO have members who are public-sector employees in Wisconsin.”
 
330Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Mar 23, 2011, 22:51
So Clarence Thomas will recuse himself from the next issue near and dear to the Tea Party?
 
331Boldwin
      ID: 46243212
      Wed, Mar 23, 2011, 22:52
According to Two sections of Title 28 of the United States Code (the Judicial Code) provide standards for judicial disqualification or recusal. Section 455, captioned “Disqualification of justice, judge, or magistrate judge,” provides that a federal judge “shall disqualify himself in any proceeding in which his impartiality might reasonably be questioned.” The same section also provides that a judge is disqualified “where he has a personal bias or prejudice concerning a party, or personal knowledge of disputed evidentiary facts concerning the proceeding”; when the judge has previously served as a lawyer or witness concerning the same case or has expressed an opinion concerning its outcome; or when the judge or a member of his or her immediate family has a financial interest in the outcome of the proceeding.
 
332Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Mar 23, 2011, 22:58
I think you overlooked one important word: "former."

Without a current financial interest there is no recusal requirement.

The point, BTW, is raised as an update in the link you provided.
 
333Boldwin
      ID: 46243212
      Thu, Mar 24, 2011, 04:28
You don't need it to be current to establish bias, and the guy just moved from working in the union office hourly to doing related work as an independent political activist/lobbyist.

Also note that the law refers to the judges previous opinions not just her family's financial involvement.
 
334Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 24, 2011, 09:12
You have to follow the law. The law assumes that current employers hold more sway than former ones.
 
335Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Thu, Mar 24, 2011, 10:01
It has been mentioned in this thread, but the walkout in Indiana has ow passed the 1-month mark.

link

The situation while sparked by the Wisconsin walkout, seems different. The Governor and Republicans have been willing to negotiate and have killed the initial offending bill.

Actually I shouldn't complain, as long as they aren't in session no new laws can be passed. But I guess I'll end up paying for special summer sessions so they can pass a budget this summer.
 
336Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 24, 2011, 12:09
Wisconsin senator's wife to sign his recall petition, directs protesters to his 25-year old mistresses house.

Grabs box of popcorn...
 
337Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Thu, Mar 24, 2011, 15:49
I doubt that he is the only senator who has a 2nd residence in Wisconsin and I would guess that he still claims the home in Fond-du-Lac as his primary residence.

Actually, turns out I would be wrong, but not quite as wrong as the article. Apparently the esteemed senator filed for divorce (at least according to Wikipedia in August of last year. The could still be legally married, but the paper managed to gloss over that part.

As far as residency goes, he seems to be skirting the issue by reportedly claiming to have an apartment, but the address provided is an employee's home address. That being said, there are provisions for moving, or intending to move, back to the district. I believe Rahm Emanuel was allowed to run for the Mayor of Chicago under a similar ruling.
 
338Mith
      ID: 51253421
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 01:16
"As an aside, I've been involved in GOP politics here in Indiana for 18 years, and I think that the situation in WI presents a good opportunity for what's called a "false flag" operation."
 
339Boldwin
      ID: 46243212
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 01:46
Somewhere there is an e-mail floating around out there from Chicago glass workers warning their union buddies in the press to go easy on this story as they have the first week in November reserved strictly for repairing self-inflicted campaign headquarters damage.
 
340Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 10:38
Somewhere there is an e-mail floating

Because floating emails are the best source of news.
 
341Boldwin
      ID: 16253251
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 10:43
Because Democrats reacting in horror at the thot of pulling a false flag operation are ludicrous. That's been their SOP for decades.
 
342Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 11:44
There is probably also an e-mail floating around detailing Sarah Palin's plan to conquer parts of Siberian Russia, that doesn't mean it is real or represents reality in any way.
 
343Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 13:23
Wisconsin GOP files FOIA request for all emails by a University of Wisconsin professor who posted blog post critical of Walker's handling of the unions.
 
344walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 13:30
Wow that is creepy McCarthy stuff the attack on Cronon. In this age of 24 second news cycles, how can one think such a strategy will not easily backfire and make it clear that the original intent of the governor was not poli motivated? Benefit of the doubt if the Gov truly was doing what he did for fiscal budgetary reasons, this action against Cronon does not support that cause. Boggles the mind.
 
345Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 14:23
That is deplorable.
 
346Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 15:15
Wisconsin GOP hits back:

"Wisconsin GOP executive director Mark Jefferson has stood by the open-records request, and attacked critics of it as "chilling" efforts to know what public officials are doing: "I have never seen such a concerted effort to intimidate someone from lawfully seeking information about their government."

So many things wrong with that statement.
 
347wolfer
      ID: 25521311
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 16:25
re 336 and 337

They are still "married" yet.

Wait, it gets better. Guess who got a job in the Walker administration?
 
348DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 16:52
O/U 24 hours before there's a FOIA request for all of Mark Jefferson's emails?
 
349Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 18:20
I'll take the under.

Any odds on how he will be furious that he has a request against him, and he won't honor it as the request is for "personal" information.
 
350DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 18:35
1:1,000,000,000 or so.
 
351Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Mar 26, 2011, 10:44
Have the Wisconsin GOP lost their collective minds?

Wisconsin GOP leaders defy judicial block of implementation of the new law.

I get it--the GOP loves confrontation. But this has gone to new levels.
 
352wolfer
      ID: 27239922
      Sat, Mar 26, 2011, 13:55
Update on post 329
 
353revvingparson
      ID: 1722276
      Sun, Mar 27, 2011, 07:12
Some WI lawyers think wrong party was sued based on past case law thus what happened Friday afternoon was OK, of course we'll find out more on Tuesday when the judge returns from her week long vacation, and how quickly the State Supremes take up the matter.

The interesting part to remember is this all about procedure and not the merits of the law.

By whom and how do laws become effective in WI?

Can legislation which is not yet law be stopped by judicial act?

Do the rules of the state legislature over rule the open mtgs law?...

 
354Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Mar 27, 2011, 09:27
Can legislation which is not yet law be stopped by judicial act?

That's the easy one: yes.
 
355Boldwin
      ID: 16253251
      Sun, Mar 27, 2011, 10:35
Or by poliboard moderator if they also have enuff presumption.
 
356wolfer
      ID: 27239922
      Sun, Mar 27, 2011, 14:08
Cronon's critique to the FOIA

The GOP response to the critique
 
357revvingparson
      ID: 142242716
      Sun, Mar 27, 2011, 17:24
re 354: In WI this doesn't appear to be an open shut case. From various commentators out of WI, since Goodland v. Zimmerman, 243 Wis. 459, 10 N.W.2d 180 (1943), WI law requires the legislation to become law before the judiciary can move on it.

Since I moved out of WI some years ago I haven't kept up on things like I use to so I may be mistaken.

Actually there is probably enough gray area (and radioactivity associated with it) which is the reason this hot potato was handed off to the St Supremes.
 
358Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Mar 27, 2011, 19:28
The reason it is clear on the ability of the judiciary to step in at this point is because, as you point out, it is a procedural question. The law cannot take effect if, in fact, the process to pass it was unlawful. It isn't, in fact, a law and never was.

In other words, it can't be both a procedural question and one in which the judiciary has to step aside until the "law" becomes engaged. The judge was entirely correct to block any attempt to finalize the law until the question of whether the process to bring it about was lawful is answered.
 
359Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Mar 27, 2011, 19:43
BTW, I have no clue as to the merits of whether the Open Meetings law was violated--it seems to me an easy fix even if so.

But my reading of the Court of Appeals ruling which expressly looked at Goodland seems apt. Certainly it seems appropriate for the SCOWI to rule on the law before it gets engaged, seeing at how quickly the Governor wants to start using it as a club.
 
360walk
      ID: 348442710
      Mon, Mar 28, 2011, 15:53
NYT, Krugman: Cronon and the American Thought Police

Good piece. He hits a lot of issues that makes one pause about such tactics.
 
361wolfer
      ID: 27239922
      Tue, Mar 29, 2011, 21:23
no means no
 
362walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 08:57
More Freedom of Info Act Requests

The plot thickens...
 
363Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 18:45
If teachers who make the average salary in Wisconsin are overpaid because they are taxpayer funded, surely a guy from Wisconsin making three times the average salary should be able to get by on his taxpayer funded salary yes?

Doh!
 
364Mith
      ID: 51253421
      Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 20:04
The bigger story is not what he said but the lengths the GOP is going to supress that video.
 
365DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 17:42
Seems like a simple process to FOIA all documents related to the making of the video, no?
 
366Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 17:44
You can't demand information under a FOIA request from a non-governmental agency.
 
368DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 17:59
A United States representative is a non-governmental agency?
 
369Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 18:08
The Republican Party group which took the video and posted it certainly is.
 
370DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 19:36
Congratulations, you have invalidated precisely none of my point.
 
371Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 20:15
I'm not sure you understand the scope and usefulness of what the FOIA applies to in this case. Upon which member or department of the Executive Branch would you serve such a request?
 
372Mith
      ID: 57263119
      Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 20:24
That he is a US congressman doesn't make every recording of him or his speech aplicable to FOIA.

And as far as I know FOIA doesn't apply to state and local government documents and media.

Further, I'm not even sure whether that video even qualifies as a government document in the first place. Polk County isn't the rights-holder, the local political party is.
 
373Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 20:32
Some states (like Wisconsin) have open records and open meetings laws which are subject to a similar process as a FOIA request on the federal level. But, as you point out, none of the parties involved would be subject to either a state or federal request of this sort.
 
374wolfer
      ID: 25521311
      Fri, Apr 01, 2011, 09:13
We have a winner for the first possible recall.....
 
375Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Apr 01, 2011, 10:55
How does the recall vote process work in WI?

I can see being able to get enough signatures, but is the actual voting process the result of simple majority of who shows up, or do a majority of residents have to show up and vote?
 
376Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 01, 2011, 11:03
I believe they have to get a certain number of signatures (a percentage of registered voters, perhaps?) which will force an up-or-down vote on the elected official. That vote is like any other election--majority of votes cast will decide the thing.

The official needs to have been in office at least one year. So the Governor is safe until 2012 at least.

Depending upon timing, they might run the recall at the same time as a primary, which means that if a politician is successfully recalled then those trying to fill that seat will be running at the same time. California did that when Arnold got it.
 
377Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 01, 2011, 14:31
University of Wisconsin to release some emails of professor in response to FOIA request.

It isn't clear what they are releasing, but since they have already reviewed the emails and note that none of them were of a partisan political nature I'm not sure the GOP is getting anything that it was fishing for.
 
378wolfer
      ID: 27239922
      Fri, Apr 01, 2011, 20:58
Some updates - I may refer to a few previous threads so...

The number of signatures needed to trigger a recall in Wisconsin is 25% of the total number of votes in the previous election for the Governor. For example, in the Senate district I was in, and which I posted earlier, they needed 15,588 signatures (and okay, I'll say it, I am one of them that signed). After that, from the post of mine earlier:


"Today’s filing will trigger a 31-day review period during which the GAB determines that all signatures are sufficient. Kapanke can challenge signatures during the first 10 days.

Either party can petition a judge for an extension.

Spokesman Reid Magney said the GAB may ask for more time in order to minimize the number of special elections.

“We’re hoping for maybe a couple instead of 16,” he said.

The GAB would order an election on the sixth Tuesday after determining the petition is in order. If there is more than one challenger, that election would be a primary followed by a general election four weeks later.

Once an election is ordered, challengers can begin circulating petitions to get their names on the ballot. They would have 10 days to collect 400 signatures."

It looks like there is more than enough signatures than what is needed.

Finally, the UW chancellor's message on FOIA.
 
379Boldwin
      ID: 4635123
      Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 18:47
The state budget crisis leads to the same ineluctable solution even for sane Dem Governors.
What, one wonders, would Democratic governors and mayors do if they did not have Republican governors for comparison? In fact, the wage cuts and increased employee pension contributions being proposed in California, Maryland and New York are actually greater, on a per capita basis, greater than those being pressed by Republicans Scott Walker, John Kasich, Rick Scott and Chris Christie.
I guess the logic goes, 'As bad as this is at least we aren't seeing the cuts a Republican would make'. Not necessarily true as demonstrated, but comforting fiction Dem union members can hang their hat on.
 
380Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 18:56
Surely you aren't 379 posts in and still missing the point?

Walker's problem wasn't that he was pressing the unions for givebacks (that was a non-issue--the unions already agreed to all his requests). The problem was that he wanted no unions.

And if you think the fiscal problems between states can be compared you haven't looked closer than the party affiliation of the governor in question.

I guarantee you that any governor, democrat or republican, who tried to pull what Walker did would get the same blowback.
 
381Boldwin
      ID: 632558
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 09:34
Governor party affiliation has far less to do with it than you think.

The irresistable two forces at work is that public sector unions can buy legislators to write any figure on the dotted line they want...

...but unlike the federal government, the states can't print money.

Thus forcing the issue and unavoidable solutions eventually on all parties.
 
382Boldwin
      ID: 632558
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 09:38
The previous link showing Jerry Brown, of all people, taking the big carving knife to public sector unions should have persuaded you of this.
 
383DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 10:12
"The irresistable two forces at work is that public sector unions can buy legislators to write any figure on the dotted line they want"...

Unless the corporations buy the legislators off with more money, in which case there will be massive cuts to those 'unconscionably high tax rates'. Which you're demonstrably all in favor of in cases of Caterpillar and the like.

There's only a difference between the two if your only measuring stick for value to society is profits.
 
384Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 10:20
The previous link showing Jerry Brown, of all people, taking the big carving knife to public sector unions should have persuaded you of this.

If you were a bit more knowledgeable about Brown's career, that wouldn't suprise you. As Jesse Walker wrote in The American Conservative,

But Governor Brown was much more of a fiscal conservative than Governor Reagan, even if he made arguments for austerity that the Republican would never use. (At one point, to get across the idea that a lean organization could outperform a bloated bureaucracy, he offered the example of the Viet Cong.) Reagan had raised taxes several times and boosted spending by an average of 12.2 percent a year. In his first year as governor, by contrast, Brown increased spending by just 4.6 percent, less than the rate of inflation. He wasn’t always so restrained in the rest of his reign, but he was thriftier than his predecessor, accumulating one of the biggest budget surpluses in California history. In Brown’s first gubernatorial campaign, he had denounced “recycled Reaganism.” In Brown’s first year in office, Reagan’s director of programs and policies joked that his old boss “thinks Jerry Brown has gone too far to the right.”
 
385wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Tue, Apr 05, 2011, 21:18
Updates on the recall elections.
 
386Boldwin
      ID: 5533360
      Wed, Apr 06, 2011, 01:38
PV

I have to admit that that is a side of Jerry Brown I had no idea existed. Maybe his election wasn't a complete disaster after all. I guess just as it takes a republican to open China diplomacy, maybe sometimes it takes a Dem to get the unions to put down their weapons and back off.
 
387wolfer
      ID: 25521311
      Wed, Apr 06, 2011, 14:28
To add to the drama of the last two months, the election for a Supreme Court seat is reallly too close to call.
 
388Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 01:42
Walker, who campaigned on the rejection of $810 billion in stimulus money to Wisconsin for high speed rail, and who lost a gamble to persuade the Feds to let him take the money but spend it on roads instead (also here), now wants some of the high speed rail money Florida rejected.
 
389Boldwin
      ID: 4030710
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 11:06
Not that I back any passenger rail anywhere, but for the record that request was for the heavily travelled Milwaukee-Chicago line, not the rejected not so heavily traveled Milwaukee route right into the heart of deepest darkest marxist Madison.
 
390biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 12:34
You wouldn't back it anywhere? You think NYC could function without rail?
 
391Boldwin
      ID: 4030710
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 12:49
Fair point. Perhaps I'll bend on subways. Or maybe rather I'll condemn crowding people into hell-holes where personal transport won't work.
 
392DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 12:55
An excellent idea. Spread things out whenever possible to reduce the need for mass transit of all sorts. That way, we can easily reduce our dependence on foreign energy sources and be less beholden to Saudi Arabia so people won't be economically crushed and ahve to complain to the president about high gas pric-- oh, wait, no, that's exactly the opposite.
 
393walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 14:29
It is pretty crowded on my line, I must say. And yet, it's the fastest and most reliable way to get around the city. City, a bizarre concept where folks live with lots of buildings, jobs, art, sports, crime, and darn good food and drink.
 
394Boldwin
      ID: 4030710
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 14:45
I used the Chicago elevated all my Chicago college days and didn't own a car. That said, the only workable livable solution is to leave the city.
 
395Boldwin
      ID: 4030710
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 18:30
Prosser up by 244.

Amazing if all those histrionics in Madison couldn't pull this election off for the public union/buy a pay raise scam.
 
396Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 18:50
Probably headed for a recount. That article says that the guy has only a 40 vote lead right now, statewide.
 
397Boldwin
      ID: 4030710
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 20:14
Well we already learned from Minnesota that he will need a couple extra votes from every area Soros' 'Secretary Of State Project' scored a vote counter. More than 40 in total I would expect.
 
398DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 20:29
I wouldn't worry about it.

On the plus side, if you're an aspiring politician, the Waukesha County Clerk's office should be an easy race to win next time 'round.
 
399wolfer
      ID: 27239922
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 14:34
Washington has been asked to investigate.
 
400Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 15:44
of course Baldwin is silent when a Republican candidate "mysteriously" finds a whole mess of votes.
 
401Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 16:16
From a Republican county, of all places.
 
402Boldwin
      ID: 1135295
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 17:35
Plenty of Dems have vouched for that find. Haven't seen a Wisc. Dem claiming that issue would lead to a recount yet.
 
403Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sun, Apr 10, 2011, 03:11
the point is, a mere 5 posts earlier, you were playing buzzwords bingo and tossing blame on the left.
 
404Boldwin
      ID: 103311210
      Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 12:10
Faulty accounting practices stipulated by the Government Accounting Standards Board have allowed state retirement systems to dramatically underestimate their pension deficits. In most states, the trustees of these funds have not provided the right data or even agreed to release it. This cover-up stands in the way of designing the reforms needed to fix the most serious calamity facing state and local finances...

The right discount rate is a risk-free rate of return such as the yield off a U.S. Treasury note.

What's the difference between discounting liabilities using an 8 percent rate of return projection and a 3.5 percent risk-free Treasury rate? Trillions of dollars in pension debt. Thanks to studies done by experts such as Andrew Biggs of the American Enterprise Institute and Joshua Rauh of Northwestern University, we have estimates for the true values of the unfunded pension liabilities using the risk-free discount rate.

In a report published a year ago, Biggs calculated that by mid-2008 the states' collective unfunded pension liabilities exceeded $3 trillion. The state pension funds reported $438 billion at the time.

This projection gap is the difference between a pension problem and a pension crisis, as Frank Keegan of Watchdog.org put it. How severe is the crisis? Biggs calculated in the same report that the average pension plan has only a 16 percent probability of being able to pay off its liabilities as presently constructed. Incremental reforms will not fix this picture. States need to remake their pension systems by restructuring benefits and switching to the defined contribution method of compensation...

Working with several states on these proposals, I've seen firsthand how faulty accounting and missing data are getting in the way of real pension reform. Legislators and executive officials don't have the proper unfunded liability projections from the retirement system, don't get any data from it at all, or don't even get their phone calls returned. Without the right numbers, they can't draft the legislation needed to overhaul public pensions in their states.
For the record Walker doesn't even touch public sector salary negotiations, his changes merely attempt to get a handle on these out of control, unsustainable, doomed, unfunded benefit packages.
 
405Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 12:33
Packages which the unions were willing to negotiate, in favor of the state.
 
406Boldwin
      ID: 103311210
      Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 19:10
SANDY SPRINGS, GEORGIA: The City That Outsourced Everything:
“Since incorporating in 2005, Sandy Springs has improved its services, invested tens of millions of dollars in infrastructure and kept taxes flat. And get this: Sandy Springs has no long-term liabilities.” As public-employee unions get more expensive and entitled, we’re likely to see a lot more of this.
ReasonTV via Instapundit
 
407Boldwin
      ID: 103311210
      Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 19:13
Packages which the unions were willing to negotiate

Well of course. Notice the one thing they will not compromise on is the ability to negotiate the terms with their bought and paid for politicians across the table. So don't tell me that their willingness not to ask their usual cut from a republican majority is meaningful on their part.
 
408Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 20:30
Notice the one thing they will not compromise on is the ability to negotiate the terms with their bought and paid for politicians across the table.

I've no idea what this means. You mean the SCOTUS-approved ability to lobby our elected representatives, under the guise of free speech?

You are saying that unions, for some silly reason, refuse to negotiate away the ability to lobby the government on behalf of their members? Wow, what a shortsighted group. They act like one of the major political parties in the country wants to do away with them or something. What paranoid throwbacks!
 
409Boldwin
      ID: 233241222
      Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 23:28
You of course understand what I am saying. Government workers in public sector unions negotiating with democrats they bought and who have zero incentive to limit their increases, should be illegal and is madness.
 
410Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 23:38
Uh, right.

Why is it only that unions should not act in their own self interest?
 
411Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 09:40
Government workers in public sector unions negotiating with democrats they bought and who have zero incentive to limit their increases, should be illegal and is madness.

Different than corporations how?
 
412biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 10:50
Far less powerful.
 
413Boldwin
      ID: 233241222
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 11:38
Different than corporations how?

What kind of crazy question is that?

Negotiating with a corporation ends up balancing competing interests.

Negotiating with your own puppet [the legislator you bought] is an unsustainable farce. Hook your battery's two terminals together to see how that ends up.
 
414Boldwin
      ID: 233241222
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 11:52
Why is it only that unions should not act in their own self interest?

You always deliberately ignore that this debate is only about public sector unions.

This allows you to further ignore that it is impossible for a public sector union to truly negotiate with the government. For example, imagine the SEIU negotiating with Obama when he was a state legislator. What negotiation? There wouldn't be anything there but a conspiracy against the taxpayer.
 
415biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 12:31
Yeah, corporations never buy legislators. What kind of fantastical utopia are you living in o blind one?
 
416Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 12:45
You always deliberately ignore that this debate is only about public sector unions.

No, I'm not. In fact, my point is that you want these unions to be forced to act in a way you would be up in arms about if applied to entities who actually do buy votes (and, in fact write legislation).

Negotiating with a corporation ends up balancing competing interests.

This is LOL funny. And negotiations between governments and public sector unions do not?
 
417Boldwin
      ID: 323371315
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 16:59
Well I am against big corporations like GE cozying up to Obama, and paying no taxes as a result. Or the junk sellers who were in the thick of things screwing us up, assigned to fix things. I'm against big corporations writing red tape that over-complicates us small businessmen who do not have a staff to wade thru it.

But it's not exactly as if Immelt buys Obama, Reid and Pelosi and they directly cut him a government check for his corporation's total profit for the year. As it is when public sector unions 'negotiate' with Dem politicians.
 
418Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 17:03
Obama wrote the tax code that resulted in GE paying $0 in taxes this year? Corporations don't get government checks written to them?
 
419Boldwin
      ID: 323371315
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 17:21
1) Do a google search for Immelt's incredibly close relationship with Obama and the tax benefits there from.

2) I don't know too many people who support non-competitive no-bid single source contracting with the government and when there is bidding, well there's your competition.
 
420Boldwin
      ID: 323371315
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 17:26
Let me underline that the link describing Immelt and Obama represent the height of hypocrisy, important since that is the only sin the libertine party recognizes.
 
421DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 18:05
Re: 419 part 2... really? You don't know anybody who would support that?

Well, ask the Wisconsin state legislature and Scott Walker why they do

Under the budget-repair bill passed by the Assembly on Friday, no bids would be required for the state to sell up to 37 heating and cooling plants across the state.

The bill would empower the secretary of the state Department of Administration to sell the plants, which primarily serve University of Wisconsin campuses, including those in Madison and Milwaukee, as well as state prisons and other facilities.

In a change from a similar proposal that Republican lawmakers sought six years ago, the bill stripped a requirement that the Public Service Commission review whether the sale is in the public interest.

During their marathon debate on the budget-repair bill, Democrats unsuccessfully sought changes to the plants issue, including a requirement that competitive bids be sought and another to restore PSC review of the deals.


(emphasis mine)

Common Cause of Wisconsin, a government watchdog group, raised concerns that the no-bid clause could have been written to benefit a campaign donor such as Koch Industries, the largest corporate contributor to Gov. Scott Walker in the campaign.

Hmm.

Good thing that Scott Walker is there to defend the state against those predatory unions, while simultaneously working with those predatory corporate donors to his campaign.

As long as you're whining about hypocrisy, let's see you defend this one.
 
422Boldwin
      ID: 323371315
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 18:08
Good point. Two wrongs of course, not making a right however.
 
423Razor
      ID: 160302211
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 18:11
Re: 419 - Obama wrote the tax code that resulted in GE paying $0 in taxes this year? That article you posted didn't repeatedly mention that Obama wanted to reform the tax code that resulted in GE paying $0 in taxes this year? You are that if you are going to assign a cause-effect relationship, that the cause must actually be tied to the effect by more than an unrelated association?
 
424Boldwin
      ID: 323371315
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 18:16
Yeah, Obama puts Immelt on the board to advise him on tax policy among other things and you don't think it matters that Immelt managed to form fit his corporation around Obama/Pelosi/Reid's tax policy so well that the government owed GE money?

Another coincidence theorist.
 
425DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 18:23
Except that there's not a whole lot that's new that Obama has done -- and yet, unsurprisingly, you're blaming him for stuff that's been in place for a lot longer than he's been there.

In 2008, GE's effective tax rate was 5.3%. (Marginal corporate tax rates are 35%.) Is that Obama's fault too? (source: Forbes)

It's GE Capital that keeps the overall tax bill so low. Over the last two years, GE Capital has displayed an uncanny ability to lose lots of money in the U.S. (posting a $6.5 billion loss in 2009), and make lots of money overseas (a $4.3 billion gain). Not only do the U.S. losses balance out the overseas gains, but GE can defer taxes on that overseas income indefinitely. The timing of big deductions for depreciation in GE Capital's equipment leasing business also provides a tax benefit, as will loan losses left over from the credit crunch.

Also, how are you managing to simultaneously blame Obama for stifling corporate investment while simultaneously blaming him for abnormally low corporate tax rates? That's, well...

ha ha wow
 
426Boldwin
      ID: 323371315
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 22:38
Haliburton
 
427Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 22:43
my brother posted this on my facebook page today:

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither.


pretty much right on.
 
428Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 23:13
Was there an answer to the questions in 423 in any of the subsequent posts?
 
429Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 23:26
($6.5 billion loss in 2009), and make lots of money overseas (a $4.3 billion gain)

They apparently are so smart, they only lost $2.2 billion in 2009. Smart like a fox, those GE Capital people...
 
430wolfer
      ID: 27239922
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 21:04
Re 398 and 399


This is not a new thing for that clerk. Because of the "extra" 17000 votes that were cast in the Attorney General race than the total votes cast,

a PAC wants the AG to resign.
 
431DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 21:10
Not that I expect a rational answer to this, but how in the blue hell did nobody happen to notice this five years ago?
 
432Boldwin
      ID: 53371610
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 21:51
I'm actually starting to believe she could pull it off. I saw her whole speech. Breitbart too Reuters
 
433Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 09:49
Pull what off, exactly? Finally put together that presidential exploratory committee?

On behalf of Dems everywhere, Run Sarah Run! Because what this country needs is a backbiting afraid-of-real-work politico who loves confrontation and without real ideas of their own.
 
434Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 11:09
On behalf of Dems everywhere, Run Sarah Run!

I had that same feeling for a while but really I'd prefer she didn't run. I'd like President Obama to have a real challenger, somebody who could realistically help this country. When someone isn't challenged they aren't as likely to be creative and create new ideas. Palin would get steamrolled in that election and we'd have no benefit to an election year.

Republicans, please put up a real challenger. Sarah Palin and Donald Trump need not apply.
 
435Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 13:00
Republicans, please put up a real challenger. Sarah Palin and Donald Trump need not apply

Finally something reps and dems can agree on.
 
436Razor
      ID: 173251712
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 13:25
Palin, Trump and Bacchman are not serious candidates. They will get a lot of press, but there is almost no chance any of them win the nomination, despite current polling. It will probably end up being a moderate candidate like Daniels, Romney or Pawlenty, which is better for the country and Republicans.
 
437Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 14:03
Just find out which of those milktoasts is accepting the most Soros cash and you can figure it out.

Of course they'd have to pay for every cheer they got on the trail because republicans don't feel the slightest rise in pulse-rate from those three. Or do like McCain and nominate a conservative for VP running-mate again. Then they can run up like Colbert and claim the applause was for them.
 
438bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 14:35
do like McCain and nominate a conservative for VP running-mate again

I am surprised Soros would allow such a thing to happen.
 
439Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 13:57
Indiana Democrats walk-out funded by national unions

I don't know the bias of the source, but it does raise some interesting questions. It also points out that laws were broken by the Democrats in their walk-out, mainly raising money during a legislative session.
 
440Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 14:24
Hmmm. Is having your hotel room paid for "fund raising?" The money was given to the party rather than to the individuals. Party activities are permitted, according to the excerpt from the statute linked.

I think they are at the edge, but not over, the law on this one, from what I'm seeing.
 
441Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 15:12
On the edge? Really PD? The whole purpose of this walk out to help the unions. They are the only ones benefitting from the walk out. And who paid the bill for the democrats? The unions.

"Hey legislators, don't do your job for a few days so we can get our way. We'll foot the bill."

This is about as unethical as it gets and is illustrative of the problem with politics in this country. Let me be clear, this is a bipartisan problem. We just happen to be focusing on an incident involving democrats, but republicans across the country take similar types of payments, kickbacks, bribes, support and donations.

I'm completely against this kind of behavior whether repulican or democrat. Its this kind of special interest pushing and party politics that is making a mess of America.
 
442Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 15:20
You should quit voting for R's or D's then.
 
443Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 15:22
B7, who says I haven't?
 
444Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 15:36
Khahan: I'm only looking at the very narrow legal question, which was the one raised by frick in #439.

The whole funding of politics thing is rife with loopholes like this one. This is one of those "soft money" things which makes the process a little silly. What is the difference between the unions funneling the money for the rooms through the party, or paying directly? None at all. But the first is legal and the second isn't. Stupid.
 
445sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 15:51
The whole purpose of this walk out to help the unions. They are the only ones benefitting from the walk out.

I have to disagree that unions are/were the "only" ones benefiting, and I think you would too if you or your wife were a teacher for ex. Countless blue-collar types, were beneficiary of the Dems actions here.
 
446Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 15:58
I have to disagree that unions are/were the "only" ones benefiting, and I think you would too if you or your wife were a teacher for ex. Countless blue-collar types, were beneficiary of the Dems actions here.

They're part of the unions, but that really completely misses the point Sarge. The ends do not justify the means. The whole exchange of money by a special interest group to support a political party while that political party is in the process of trying to make policy is simply wrong and should never be allowed.
 
447Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 16:07
Yeah, I gave up on them over 10 years ago. As long as it's only R's and D's ,things will not change.
 
448Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 16:49
My wife is a teacher, but I don't support the walk-out. Unlike the Wisconsin situation, but the Governor and the Senate leaders were willing to negotiate on the other proposed legislation. The legislation that caused the walk-out was withdrawn within a day or two, yet the walk-out lasted over a month.

Without knowing the exact details of all of the payments, it appears that they were right at the edge of the law, but did not cross it. Part of that appears to be semantics, but it also was direct contradiction to the D party leader who repeatedly stated that the money to pay for the hotel was coming from a groundswell of individuals.
 
449Boldwin
      ID: 2354214
      Thu, Apr 21, 2011, 21:14
AC explains the difference between public sector and private sector unions and discusses the recent liberal meme that union-favoring Reagan Democrats are allegedly returning to the Dem fold over Wisconsin.
 
450Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 21, 2011, 21:48
Why are these mythic "Reagan Democrats" being discussed at all?

Aren't these people simply moderate to conservative-learning Democrats? (Also, liberal Republicans--the two that are left after the rest have been burned off).
 
451DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Apr 21, 2011, 21:53
Yeah, but she's just a comedian, so clearly that can't be taken seriously.
 
452Boldwin
      ID: 2354214
      Thu, Apr 21, 2011, 22:08
PD

Did you even notice the election last November? If so who do you think put the Tea Party candidates over the top and into the win column?

A comforting fantasy that those swing voters are already returning to the D column after the Wisconsin spectacle. Many think it was a huge Dem win, without any evidence I am aware of.
 
453Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Fri, Apr 22, 2011, 09:01
I would say it was a huge win for the Dems. Walker's actions turned me off. I'm sure you don't think of me of as a Rep, but I tend to vote that way more often than not. Walker went way past what he promised to do on the campaign trail and his high handed tactics only endeared him to his base, not to fringe voters. Compare the methods used between Obama and Walker. One of them attempted to negotiate with the other side and get their opinions.
 
454Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 22, 2011, 10:39
#452: If you are of the belief that moderates somehow started voting in droves for tea party candidates (and that the GOP has any staying power now) you continue to learn from elections only those things that you believed before them.

Many, many Tea Party candidates never got out of the primary. Many of the rest were not elected (quick: Name a national Tea Party candidate who won? Not just a GOP candidate who won with Tea Party support).
 
455boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Apr 22, 2011, 11:14
Rand Paul?
 
456Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Apr 22, 2011, 11:40
As I pointed out somewhere, Rand Paul is somewhat of an anomaly in Tea Party circles because he endorses large cuts in defense spending and is rather blase concerning the social issues.
Tea Party advocates who went after Planned Parenthood and NPR, as if those were relevant to the budget deficit, ended up looking obstinate instead of responsible.

Democrats, however, must respond to the obvious desire of the voting populace, including a high percentage of moderates and independents, to see a more responsible Congress when it comes to spending. Otherwise, they'll be tagged with the "tax and spend" designation, which could be fatal in 2012.

 
457Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 22, 2011, 11:42
Really? I'd think, if he could pick a party, it would be Libertarian. Maybe I'm wrong, but he (and his father) has always struck me as much more libertarian than anything else. He certainly isn't about the protection of the military's budget and keeping medicare off the table of cuts as well.
 
458Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Apr 22, 2011, 12:21
The original intent of the Tea Party, which endorsed libertarian ideals like the Pauls, and concentrated primarily on spending issues that appealed to independents and moderates, bares little resemblance to the current model, as evidenced by their stars.

Trump, Palin, Bachmann Turn Tea Party Into Kingmaker for 2012

Not one of those has any appeal whatsoever to moderates and independents, and only Bachmann, to an extent, has any real pull within the GOP structure, where caucuses and party leaders are more important than name recognition.


 
459boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Apr 22, 2011, 13:12
Many, many Tea Party candidates never got out of the primary. Many of the rest were not elected (quick: Name a national Tea Party candidate who won? Not just a GOP candidate who won with Tea Party support).

so when you asked the question you meant to say name a GOP candidate that was supported by tea party and believed exactly what Palin believes?
 
460Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 22, 2011, 13:45
Nah. My point was more basic: There are few actual Tea Party candidates who succeeded at winning their elections.

Among the few who got out of their primary were O'Donnell & Engle. Bachmannm maybe.
 
461Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Apr 22, 2011, 13:55
And remember that Mike Lee's path to the senate was paved by eliminating Bob Bennett at the Utah Republican convention. Polls show Bennett would have creamed Lee had there been an actual primary.
 
462Tree
      ID: 16329157
      Sat, Apr 23, 2011, 08:44
why are unions important?

American's unions take issue with CEO's pay

Employee unions at AMR Corp., American Airlines' parent, weren't pleased to learn Friday that Chief Executive Gerard Arpey's 2010 compensation increased 11 percent.

Arpey's pay of $5.2 million grew mostly due to stock awards and options. The Fort Worth-based carrier lost $471 million in 2010.
 
463Wilmer McLean
      ID: 839213
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 04:18
(Massachusetts) House votes to restrict unions - Measure would curb bargaining on health care Boston Globe 04/27/11

House lawmakers voted overwhelmingly last night to strip police officers, teachers, and other municipal employees of most of their rights to bargain over health care, saying the change would save millions of dollars for financially strapped cities and towns.

The 111-to-42 vote followed tougher measures to broadly eliminate collective bargaining rights for public employees in Ohio, Wisconsin, and other states. But unlike those efforts, the push in Massachusetts was led by Democrats who have traditionally stood with labor to oppose any reduction in workers’ rights.

...

“It’s pretty stunning," said Robert J. Haynes, president of the Massachusetts AFL-CIO. “These are the same Democrats that all these labor unions elected. The same Democrats who we contributed to in their campaigns. The same Democrats who tell us over and over again that they’re with us, that they believe in collective bargaining, that they believe in unions. . . . It’s a done deal for our relationship with the people inside that chamber."

...

The timing of the vote was significant. Union leaders plan today to unleash a major lobbying blitz with police officers, firefighters, and other workers flooding the State House. Taking the vote last night at 11:30 allowed lawmakers to avoid a potentially tense confrontation with those workers, and vote when the marble halls of the House were all but empty.
 
464Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 08:36
In some ways I see similarities between the current laws to restrict union bargining rights and sports leagues salary caps. The owners/governments realize they need to curb in salaries/expenses, but when it comes time to sign the contract the union/player keeps getting more and more.

The owners/governments are willing or possibly able to control their spending, so they create rules that limit their own behavior.
 
465Boldwin
      ID: 51323288
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 09:35
The downside of Obama's exponentially expanding government – to the detriment of the private sector – is that it is now impossible for young people to find work.

But there's also good news! Now there are plenty of government social workers to counsel the unemployed through their depression over not being able to find a job and to process their unemployment checks.

The unholy alliance between unionized government workers and elected Democrats has led to an explosion in taxpayer-funded government employees, who, incidentally, can never be fired.
-------
this incredible 21-foot-long chart lists the steps that had to be gone through to satisfy all the rules and all the management and union agreements [to fire a bad employee - B]
-------
Taking only one performance problem in a single government office – surfing Internet pornography at the Securities and Exchange Commission: In 2010, 31 employees were found to have spent their workdays downloading Internet porn in the two and a half years during and preceding the financial crash that led to the greatest depression in nearly a century.

One senior lawyer at SEC headquarters in Washington, D.C., admitted to spending eight hours a day looking at Internet pornography. Sometimes he even worked through his lunch hour. He had downloaded so much pornography that his computer was full – at which point he began burning the pornography onto CDs and DVDs, which he stored in boxes in his office.

In another classic example of the left hand not wanting to know what the right hand was doing, an employee with the SEC's Division of Corporation Finance admitted watching up to five hours a day of pornography in his office. His favorite pornographic websites were bookmarked on his government computer, and he had both downloaded and uploaded pornographic videos to the numerous websites he had joined.

Even after admitting to surfing porn all day on the taxpayers' dime, not one of the lonely SEC employees was fired, nor were their names released by the government, even in response to a Freedom of Information Act request. (Although most of them were referred for membership in D.C. sex clubs.)

These are the true beneficiaries of big government – or our "commitments," as Obama calls them – not the poor, the elderly, the disadvantaged and those about whom we say "There but for the grace of God, go I."

Democrats don't resent "the rich" on behalf of the poor. They resent the rich on behalf of the government. - AC
And they presumably are still hard at work 'looking out for us'.


 
466sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 10:01
and for every one such admittedly irresponsible PoS employee like that you can find, I can name a dz teachers who buy classroom supplies out of their own pockets, 2 dz firefighters and LE professionals who will daily out their lives on the line, 1/2 dz EMT crews who save more people every month, than you can find who so abuse the system as the select derelicts from the above article.

Pulling out and citing the worst, then projecting those few across the whole......sad B. Very, very sad.
 
467Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 10:24
It is kinda funny that AC equates the SEC with the expansion of services for the poor. Maybe she doesn't know what the SEC does? Or that these people were hired during the Bush Administration?

Maybe the problem was that the Bush Administration didn't really have much work for the SEC to do...
 
468Boldwin
      ID: 51323288
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 11:01
I think we've established that a financial sector meltdown effects the poor. Been great for Bernanke tho.
 
469Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 11:01
It does affect the poor. Doesn't affect the rich, however.
 
470Boldwin
      ID: 51323288
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 11:06
Oh, well maybe we should porn block the SEC computers then.
 
471Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 11:11
Maybe Bush should have given them work to do instead.
 
472biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 11:53
It's been well documented that Bush consistently hired people to run government agencies that were actively hostile to mission of those agencies.

Chris Cox was no different. He was actively trying to dismantle the SEC, trashing essential regulations and de-emphasizing enforcement.

What happened after that is not particularly surprising.
 
473Boldwin
      ID: 51323288
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 12:32
You obviously missed all the Bush officials testifying before an obstinate Barney Frank that FM/FM were dooming the economy to a meltdown.
 
474Boldwin
      ID: 51323288
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 12:34
And they need to tear down EPA [and other notorious agencies] and rebuild it from the ground up.
 
475Boldwin
      ID: 51323288
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 12:39
BTW the FHA is repeating the FM/FM mistake all over again.

The Barney Franks of the world just insist on 'Homes for Deadbeats' programs and we are doomed to bail them out after the inevitable.
 
476Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 12:45
Refusing to do your job as a government employee is bad. I don't care how you try to spin it.
 
477Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, May 19, 2011, 10:29
Walker pushes to end hospital visitation for gay couples

Walker has definitely sent a message. He's such a passionate conservative that he'll make gay people suffer even more during the most horrible time in their lives, because that's what limited government is really all about.

 
478sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Thu, May 19, 2011, 12:10
Rightwingers want Gov out of THEIR lives, and into the lives of the rest of us.
 
479Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jun 14, 2011, 18:35
WI Supreme Court reinstates anti union bill.
 
480Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 00:32
Dems take 2 of 3 seats necessary to overturn WI Senate control in recall elections. Last race still up in the air.

I don't think they will take that last race, but as of this writing it is still not called.
 
481sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 00:51
Assuming the 2 Dems hold their seats next week, that makes it 17-16 Rep. Doubt anything will change then, in WI politics from what we've seen recently. Doesnt bode well, for a Gubernatorial recall either IMHO.

Not sure I'd put much stock in this either way. Primarily the activists from both parties I'd think, would be turning out to vote. *shrug*
 
482wolfer
      ID: 190562019
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 21:59
A bit too late, maybe???????
 
483sarge33rd
      ID: 07201821
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 22:25
from your link wolfer;

State Rep. Robin Vos, R-Rochester, said working together is fine, "as long as we don't sacrifice our principles." Vos said he has never believed bipartisanship should be his goal.

"I want to score, not be on the 50-yard line," he said.


The problem with Republicans today....this is not a game. They see it as such, and long as they do? We all lose.
 
484Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 01:17
They are fighting for their lives to keep you from turning America into a socialist hellhole like Greece. It's not a game at all. Half-way to hell isn't acceptable either.
 
485sarge33rd
      ID: 18734190
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 01:34
problem is B, I see YOUR side, as the one taking us to hell.
 
486Tree
      ID: 97151813
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 01:44
Oy. They are not "fighting for their lives."

Inflammatory language like that does nobody any good.
 
487Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 01:45
There are plenty of reasons why the United States is in no danger of turning into Greece. But it is interesting that the GOP continues to fight the wrong battles. And always to the death.
 
488Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 11:01
#487 is so wrong on so many levels.

Just for an example, I've heard that the SS ponzi scheme is under water by about 80 trillion by the time the baby boom works it's way all the way thru the python.

Baby boomers are getting old. I'm 58 and I'm on the tail end of the boom. This isn't a problem way off on the horizon, it's about to knock on the door.

If you thot the 14 trillion national debt was bad...

Now tell me how big Greece's debt is again.
 
489Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 11:15
#488: This reveals deep misunderstanding of finance that is hardly worth replying.

I've heard that the SS ponzi scheme...

You are hearing lies. It does seem to be the meme-of-the-month for the Far right to call Social Security a Ponzi scheme, though it bears little resemblance to actual Ponzi schemes (much like the US borrowing money through t-bills doesn't look at all like "printing money."). Truth is, Social Security has been carrying the ball on the debt for over ten years now. And there is no danger of them going broke long after you've passed on and met your God of Political Confrontation.
 
490Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 11:20
On the face of things, the problems are similar: revenues minus spending equals a negative number in both America and Greece. And Mr Leonhardt seems stuck on that similarity.

But the differences are crucial. Greece needs to come up with that 6% right now, in the space of a couple of years, in an environment of negative economic growth, because markets are close to refusing to lend Greece any additional money. America needs to close that 6% gap over the space of several decades, during which time it is likely to grow at a real annual rate of about 2.5%.
Do you see how these situations are different?


The Economist

For the Right, there is no difference. Irony upon irony, it is the actions of the wacky right who are driving up the cost of borrowing, actually pushing up toward more difficult financial waters.

In 2012, let's agree to only elect grownups, OK? I don't care about party affiliation, but angry ignorant temps as Representatives is really a bad way to go.
 
491Mith
      ID: 46121210
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 11:36
SS ponzi scheme
 
492sarge33rd
      ID: 37521910
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 11:52
In 2012, let's agree to only elect grownups, OK? I don't care about party affiliation, but angry ignorant temps as Representatives is really a bad way to go.

Gawd how I wish that would fit on a bumper sticker.
 
493Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 16:26
See the problem with that approach is that when Greece loses their economic way, the grownups in Germany send them to the woodshed and they are forced to drop some socialism and spend less.

No one tells the USA to get their economic house in order except the Tea Party. And somehow 'they aren't the grownups.' Riiiight. They are the only responsible adults in the room and until they run the WH and senate and house the overspenders will never get sent to the woodshed. The whole country will just find itself bankrupt without options someday unless the grownups finally tell the kiddies they can cope with the word no.
 
494biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 16:39
Throttling any potential for economic growth, jacking up borrowing costs with infantile behavior, and being brainless about basic and principles of economics does not a " grownup" make.
 
495sarge33rd
      ID: 37571915
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 16:57
B, if your own kids, as young children, had behaved as does the Tea Party....you'd have beaten some sense and respect into them...and been right to have done so.

Few groups, have so reminded me of a bunch of spoiled recalcitrant 10 yr olds...as does the current crop of freshman Republican House members.
 
496Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 21:35
being brainless about basic and principles of economics does not a " grownup" make.

That would best describe Meynard Keynes and his followers trying to spend their way out of a depression.
 
497sarge33rd
      ID: 557201922
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 23:20
You mean, like we did during the Great Depression, when Roosevelt spent us out of that one? Yes B, you can and DO. spend your way out of a depression. Particularly, when your economy is consumption driven.
 
498Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 23:56
Because sending all the wrong signals throughout the economy works so well.

I don't think so.
 
499Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 00:41
#498: Exactly. Which is why the Tea Party has proven to be absolutely wrong for our economy.

This is our 1937 moment. Are we going to pull back the stimulus now, and bring about a deeper recession? The Tea Party would have you believe that our biggest problem is the deficit in this country, followed by taxes (wrong, and wrong). Our biggest problem is jobs, and if they aren't trying to fix that problem then they are in the way.
 
500Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 01:49
Atlas Shrugging
The private sector has now begun collating Obama’s public statements, the political significance of hyper-debt, the force of his new regulations, the constant talk of higher taxes, and the array of strange appointees.

On the one hand, our Atlases are productive, entrepreneurial people who appreciate the singularity of the American experiment and the opportunity to profit and thrive, even when coming out of a severe recession. Real opportunity, they know well, is often best found in crises, not just in continued prosperity.

But on the other hand, they are deeply worried that the rules of the game are changing for only the second time in American history and that they are unliked, targeted and to be punished for being successful. The result is not that the private sector is fleeing the U.S. (where would one go?). Nor are entrepreneurs and go-getters shutting down their businesses that they have built from the ground up.

Instead, what we are witnessing is a sort of shrug, a pause, best summarized millions of times over as something like “I’m hoarding cash, hunkering down, and am going to wait this bad bunch out.”

So the globe is tottering as the tired-of-it-all American Atlas has finally sorta shrugged.
Victor Davis Hanson
 
501Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 01:54
And no amount of 'Obama stash' transfered to his cronies is gonna fix that.
 
502biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 01:59
You and yours, with Obama complicit (because he's apparently become obsessed with the wrong thing - deficits in the middle of a recession) and going to send us in to a 5 to 10 year swoon, with vast amounts of unemployed that will grow into a permanently disfunctional underclass, and a the US will have a year after year situation where we have vast under-utilization of resources.

Idiots.
 
503Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 11:49
Coming from someone who believes credit agencies downgrade you because you aren't overspending enuff, you are obviously going to mislabel everything that happens from now until armageddon. I have given up on the hope of 'I told you so's' from you and yours no matter how close events track with my predictions.

How does that 'overspend to improve economy and credit' work in your personal life?
 
504biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:16
Pretty good. Took out some loans for me and my wife, invested in ourselves by getting a good education. Paying for itself 5 times over.

The borrowing for our education helped us land good jobs which brought in steady income, which allowed us to leverage that into a nice house with a lower mortgage payment then rent, and we will hopefully own it outright some day.

Borrowing to invest in education and infrastructure has provided a basis for strong growth both in terms of bettering ourselves as well as increasing our productivity.

Exactly what I recommend for the country, and exactly what anyone with half a brain should be as well, conservative or liberal.
 
505sarge33rd
      ID: 07382011
      Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:38
*standing 'O' for bili's 504*
 
507Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 17:40
bili

Any evidence Obama's 'investments' are working?
- On his recent jobs tour Obama stopped at a Johnson Controls plant in southern Michigan, which received $300 million in green grants and plans to create a whopping total of 150 jobs, at a cost of $2 million per position.

- Evergreen Solar Inc., which received unknown amounts of green stimulus funds on the hope that it would create “between 90 and 100 jobs” two years ago, filed for bankruptcy this week, $485.6 million in debt. Their Massachusetts plant once employed 800 people; in March it was replaced with a factory in Wuhan, China.

- Green Vehicles, an electric car “maker” in Salinas, California, took $500,000 from the city and almost $200,000 from the state but has failed to produce even one car.

- And as reported earlier on this site, Seattle was one of a handful of cities that received $20 million in federal grants as part of Retrofit Ramp-Up, a program designed to refit houses with more energy efficient materials. Unfortunately, as KOMO4 of Seattle reports, after more than a year “only three homes had been retrofitted and just 14 new jobs have emerged from the program.”
He's just not as good at it as you, bili.

On the plus side, you weren't one of those three $6,670,000 energy efficiency retrofits, were you?
 
508Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 18:09
Doh!

If we had just doubled the stimulus we could have done six of those efficiency retrofits thus saving New York City from catastrophic ocean rise!

Damn those Tea Partiers!

Swim for it MITH!
 
509sarge33rd
      ID: 527382020
      Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 21:38
Stimulus spending DIUD work, and your own conservatives figures proved it.

See 1192 and 1197 here:

link

(not that I expect you will EVER admit the truth.)
 
510Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 01:28
There are very good reasons why it is simply bad math to take the amount of stimulus money, divide by the number of jobs, and come up with a meaningless talking point. Baldwin is no doubt already bored of this post, but the only things good about the technique is that it is simple. And "proves" the rightwing agenda (the "trifecta of right wing proof").

*rimshot*

As noted by the Associated Press when they knocked down this meme two years ago, the calculus ignores things like the cost of goods or work produced, the stimulative effect of the work (i.e., down the line economic effects of the job), that the timetable is far to short to draw the kinds of conclusions that they want to make, and finally the necessity of keeping jobs, even (gasp) at a cost.

Yes--continuing to borrow money to keep jobs during the recession is the right decision.
 
511Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 11:16
There's a difference between borrowing your own money, and ordering other people to borrow money that don't want to. Especially when those borrowings never get paid back and just keep getting bigger and bigger.

Some 26% of people with mortgages are under water. Not a good decision for them. They would have been better off renting and then buying.

Student loans don't work out for everybody. There are many with a womens' gender studies or psychology degree with no job and a student loan that never goes away.

Not sure what this has to do with Wisconsin.
.............

"Just because you can borrow money does not mean that you should borrow money."

© Building 7 Publications 2008
 
512Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 12:18
B7

I wonder how many people will rack up impossible debt loads borrowing to pay for mandated insurance?
 
513Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 12:26
PD

Out of curiosity, were you trying to rationalize the $2,000,000 per job price tags at Johnson Controls, the green vapormobiles, the entirely lost jobs at Evergreen Solar Inc., or the $6,670,000 retrofits?
 
514Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 13:11
Cherrypicking the most skewed examples is just snark althat offers nothing to a discussion about how well the stimulus worked or the greater issue of debt policy.

If you insist on the metric of job creation dollars spent vs jobs created, at least do it accurately and factor in that only about a third of the thing went toward job creation, mostly because of GOP grandstanding.

ordering other people to borrow money that don't want to.

Obama campaigned on investing in infrastructure and jobs, including after the crisis emerged late in the 2008 season. He was convincingly elected. Were he a Republican, this would be called a mandate.
 
515Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 13:48
Out of curiosity, were you trying to rationalize the $2,000,000 per job price tags

No, I was saying you are bad at math. Perhaps as a result of continually trying for the simple political gotcha.

It makes you look stupid. I've no idea if you are actually stupid of not, but you've been acting either stupid or intellectually lazy for some time on these boards.

If you want to look at your numbers based upon the more real-world points I outlined about the benefits of the stimulus funds then I'm all ears. But I'm not holding my breath.
 
516sarge33rd
      ID: 267552112
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 13:55
512 TOTALLY ignores the multitudes who file BK because of unpaid medical expenses. Those BKs are real, your speculation, is just that...hypothetical BS, lacking any grounding in reality.
 
517Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 14:03
So you are just against accountability in general then. Or were you going to explain how we benefit from bankrupt pipedreams?

'Sure on the surface those retrofits look expensive but now we have a highly trained workforce in the Seattle area who know how to retrofit a house for $6.67 mil.'

'Vapormobiles are a smooth ride.'

'Sure we're bankrupt but let's stimulate Wuhan China.'

Go ahead and spin it right. Show me the right angle to see the glimmer.

 
518Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 15:33
Are current government policies friendly to USA green power industry? You would think so, but campaign boilerplate and reality aren't the same thing.

Here too. Business friendly Obama administration. It is to chuckle sadly.
 
519sarge33rd
      ID: 147462116
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 17:46
What is "to chuckle sadly" B, is when factual, mathmatic analysis is provided, BY YOUR OWN 'SIDE'; which disproves the claim of that same side and STILL. you refuse to admit that you are wrong. What is "to chuckle sadly", is when people who live in TX, who are in-law relatives of a TX candidate...tell you what a PoS that person REALLY is and STILL; you refuse top admit you are wrong.

Those instances B, which are becoming all too common, are what is "to chuckle sadly".
 
520Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 21:09
Don't mistake me for a Perry backer. Why is that hard to keep track of? He's my nemesis from the FDLS debacle. Remember?
 
521Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 21:36
And it's kinda funny when the personal economist for the stimulus backing McCain tells you the stimulus didn't work and you claim to understand his work better than he does. And if I can't see the proof right in front of my eyes that he can't see either...
 
522sarge33rd
      ID: 477432122
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 23:43
His charts SEEM to say one thing, proving the contention the stimulus didnt work. But READ the article. When you factor in the direction of the economy, etc etc etc....it becomes painfully clear that the stimulus DID work. (An admission, even the WSJ made, albeit grudgingly.)
 
523Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 23:46
He did try to prove the stimulus didn't work. But as I pointed out before, his own charts reveal that the stimulus funds did exactly what they were supposed to do.
 
524Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 23:56
Keep those miracle tweezers handy. Yer really gonna need them for the next year and a half. I'd pay money to see the reaction of the focus group they run that one past.
 
525Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Aug 22, 2011, 00:24
It's so amusing to see this selective outrage against stimulus money ending up in unsuccessful American business ventures.

Where is the outrage over

Pentagon officials admitted on Monday that cash from part of a $2.16 billion U.S. transportation contract ends up in the hands of Taliban insurgents on a regular basis, the Washington Post reported on Monday.

The subcontractors then made deposits into an Afghan National Police commander’s account, in exchange for a guarantees of safe passage for the convoys. Then $3.3 million was withdrawn from the police commander’s account and transferred to insurgents in the form of weapons, explosives and cash bribes.

The U.S. is spending more than $6 billion a month in Afghanistan conflict. Seventy percent of all US weapons, food and supplies are trucked through these shady transportation contracts.

link

Other than Ron Paul, is there one Republican candidate who has condemned this atrocity of worse-than-wasted taxpayer money? If there is, I couldn't find it.

The most unfortunate aspect of Obama's presidency is that he appears to be just another pawn of the military industrial complex, and with the exception of Paul and possibly Huntsman, the same could be said about every current GOP candidate.

As for the link in #518, what is it, exactly, that you expect Obama to do to keep Evergreen Solar from moving the bulk of its operations to China? Surely you're not suggesting government subsidies to lower the cost of doing business in Mass.? You're supposed to be all for free markets and limited government. There's nothing spelled out in that article that explains any type of government policy that is unfriendly to the company or the industry.

Evergreen Solar CEO Rick Feldt went to Washington, D.C., and met with Energy Secretary Steven Chu and Commerce Secretary Gary Locke. He told them Chinese government policies made U.S. production uncompetitive.

Without an adequate response from the U.S. government to counter competitive forces working against domestic production, "we are going to China as quickly as we can," Feldt told the analysts.


Without more information, it's impossible to make any conclusions, much less to somehow throw the entire blame for this move at the feet of the Obama administration.

In 2007, the company received $23 million in grants from the State of Massachusetts to build its facility on state-owned property in Devens. It also received $17.5 million in low-interest loans along with a 30-year lease on the property.

I know that when I go solar, I will avoid buying any product from Evergreen Solar, even if I have to pay more. Then I will chuckle sadly.





 
526sarge33rd
      ID: 15752211
      Mon, Aug 22, 2011, 12:10
hmmmm, ES gets 40 million, 3 1/2 years ago...and the right is silent. Yet the right, raises hell about 1.7 million expenditures for under-served airports.

40 mill = no biggy
1.7 mill = atrocious waste of taxpayer money


No wonder you clowns don't think the stimulus worked, you don't even know which is more...40 or 1.7.
 
527Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Aug 22, 2011, 17:33
The smell of victory in the morning
The TAA [Teaching Assistants’ Association - B] was central to the protests that took place at the Capitol last February and March...

...Last week, after hours of debate, the union’s members voted not to seek state certification to continue to act as a collective bargaining agent.

- Ann Althouse, [Wisc.' most famous blogger?]
 
528biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Mon, Aug 22, 2011, 17:43
Victory? You are a twisted man. Why would isolating and dis-empowering impoverished, over-worked students ever be considered a victory by anyone except the most vile?

When I was working as a TA in Illinois, I was making $400/mo, teaching 2 classes and doing research on the side. In addition to taking a full load of classes. And paying my own health insurance, which ran $150 month. And I had to figure out how to feed and house myself.

I was one of the lucky ones. Most of my peers were making nothing at all, except room and board, and teaching 4 classes, without any significant professorial oversight or guidance. They couldn't even afford health insurance, much less food, beyond what was in the dining hall.
 
529Tree
      ID: 22782217
      Mon, Aug 22, 2011, 18:08
Remember, Baldwin blames intelligent people and people with educations for his personal financial woes. He is not rich like Montgomery Burns because of them.
 
530Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Aug 22, 2011, 18:19
Why would isolating and dis-empowering impoverished, over-worked students ever be considered a victory by anyone except the most vile?

Because those professional students with apparently way too much time on their hands tried their level best to promote the inherently corrupt practice of...

...public sector workers paying off democrats who pay off public sector workers who pay off democrats who pay off public sector workers...

The budget equivalent of a battery with both posts welded together and going volcanic.

Yes I know it's hard to get a job with that feminist studies diploma. Get a real job.
 
531biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Mon, Aug 22, 2011, 18:25
Like "bubble-surfing", which, in the absence of you providing more detail, amounted to screwing over those in economic trouble for personal gain?

Building shoddy, unneeded housing?

What exactly is a real job, there boldy, my employment-challenged friend?
 
532sarge33rd
      ID: 227572222
      Mon, Aug 22, 2011, 23:59
You say this, as though it were pure, unadulterated fact:

Because those professional students with apparently way too much time on their hands tried their level best to promote the inherently corrupt practice of...

...public sector workers paying off democrats who pay off public sector workers who pay off democrats who pay off public sector workers...


While ignoring the ever present reality of:

Because those professional students lobbyists with apparently way too much time on their hands tried their level best to promote the inherently corrupt practice of...

...public sector workers lobbyists paying off democrats congressman who pay off public sector workers corporate America with
corporate welfare'
who pay off democrats lobbyists who pay off public sector workers congressman...



If you intend to tilt at windmills, at least pick some very REAL windmills.
 
533Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 23, 2011, 00:02
Perhaps he's talking about teachers, police, and firefighters. Or those shoddy CDC scientists, those layabouts in Oak Ridge with their "nucular atoms" or perhaps he just means GOP Congressmen in general.
 
534Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Aug 23, 2011, 01:06
What exactly is a real job, there boldy, my employment-challenged friend?

selling Pharmanex and BetterWebBuilder are "real jobs" in Baldwin's world.
 
535Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Aug 23, 2011, 13:21
No, that's my wife and it's really none of yer d*** business.
 
536Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Aug 23, 2011, 18:39
sorry, it's public information. it's something that's all over the internets, so i think that makes it public business.

oh, by the way, your address is plastered on facebook too. complete with a map to your Peruvian stronghold.
 
537Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Aug 23, 2011, 18:46
You must have been highly disappointed how little intel I left there for trolls like you.
 
538Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 23, 2011, 18:50
Tree, you're only going to drive him deeper into the bunker, you Obama brownshirt. You need to wait until the turtle is completely out of his shell before raining the New World Order down on him.
 
539Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Aug 23, 2011, 19:11
He had to go trolling thru my wife's facebook to even find that stuff out. How creepy is that?
 
540Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 00:56
actually, i didn't troll through your wife's facebook. at all.

the employment info is on linkedin.

and actually, a simple facebook search of YOUR NAME - not any person's specific account - brings up your address. oh, and your phone number too.

someone had to intentionally set that up.
 
541Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 07:07
Well I have zero involvement with those two businesses you mentioned and I didn't set that up.
 
542Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 09:09
What happened in Wisconsin, the teacher's unions got taken to school:
During the recall tumult, unions barely mentioned either their supposed grievance about collective bargaining, or their real fears, which concern money, particularly political money. Teachers unions can no longer bargain to require school districts to purchase teachers’ health insurance from the union’s preferred provider, which is especially expensive. This is saving millions of dollars and reducing teacher layoffs. Also, unions must hold annual recertification votes.

And teachers unions may no longer automatically deduct dues from members’ paychecks. After Colorado in 2001 required public employees unions to have annual votes reauthorizing collection of dues, membership in the Colorado Association of Public Employees declined 70 percent. In 2005, Indiana stopped collecting dues from unionized public employees; in 2011, there are 90 percent fewer dues-paying members. In Utah, the end of automatic dues deductions for political activities in 2001 caused teachers’ payments to fall 90 percent. After a similar law passed in 1992 in Washington state, the percentage of teachers making such contributions declined from 82 to 11.

Democrats furiously oppose Walker because public employees unions are transmission belts, conveying money to the Democratic Party. Last year, $11.2 million in union dues was withheld from paychecks of Wisconsin’s executive branch employees and $2.6 million from paychecks at the university across the lake. Having spent improvidently on the recall elections, the Wisconsin Education Association Council, the teachers union, is firing 40 percent of its staff.

Progressives want to recall Walker next year. Republicans hope they try. - George Will via Instapundit
Ivory tower, meet reality
 
543Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 10:05
In fact I may even need to lower my estimate of how many teachers are liberals.
 
544Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 10:35
S#542: So the law is doing what it was intended to do: Punish the perceived political enemies of the Republicans.

#543: A *lot* of teachers are conservative. They also are pro-union, as noted above by Seward Norse, a conservative teacher himself.

What Will (and yourself) are not talking about is that teachers and other public employees will take a big hit in salary and benefits as a result of the bill. That is just unwise. You think we have bad teachers now--try slashing all their salaries.
 
545sarge33rd
      ID: 52744259
      Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 11:52
Teachers are I believe, THE most underpaid and under appreciated of ALL American labor. Cut an already disgustingly low salary, and you will find that you 'get what you pay for".
 
546Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 18:09
In fact I may even need to lower my estimate of how many teachers are liberals.

considering how you live in a black and white world and paint everything with broad brushstrokes, you probably need to lower your "estimates" of nearly everything.
 
547Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 11:32
Here comes the "penny wise" portion (teacher retirements in Wisconsin double).

Anyone want to lay money on Wisconsin test score averages dropping over the next few years?
 
548sarge33rd
      ID: 20835110
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 11:35
What are the odds now, of WI finding themselves with a teacher shortage?
 
549Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 11:39
Given the recession, I really don't think it'll be altogether hard to find the bodies to fill the spots.

The real questions will arise when test scores start dropping, jobs in other fields pick up, and Wisconsin can no longer attract and keep good teachers. All because they belong to a union the GOP wanted to bust.
 
550sarge33rd
      ID: 20835110
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 11:54
I wouldnt be so sure PD. Teaching doesnt pay for sh*t to begin with. Make it pay even less, you will see recruiting hassles. At the Univ level too I'd wager.

Also, the article mentions how retirements were triple for other public employees. Wonder how smoothly snow removal will go in a couple months? If WI might have troubles recruiting sufficient firefighters, Law Enforcement, etc etc.

 
551Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 11:58
Actually, police and fire unions were exempt from the union purging law by design. Gov Walker wasn't so stupid as to try to have police and fireman against him!
 
552sarge33rd
      ID: 20835110
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 12:04
isnt THAT lil factoid, enlightening as to how incentivized the whole thing was by budget vs union busting?
 
553Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 13:39
547 - were any of those people incentivized to retire?

It would have been nice for the article if they had talked to some teachers who truly retiring because of these laws rather than teachers in their 60s with 2 and 3 decades of work that would be retiring within the next year or two (or had already retired) anyway.

Find me that 30-50 year old who retiring because of these laws and interview them.

The article leaves a lot to be desired as far as really informing the public of the situation goes.
 
554Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 13:51
Maybe. But I don't think it is a coincidence that teacher retirements have doubled the year before they have to take pay cuts.
 
555Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 14:27
Thats my point PD...maybe it ISN'T a coincidence. And maybe its also not a coincidence that all they could find for this article were people close to retiring anyway.

So I ask again, was there an incentive to retire put out there that is accounting for this huge increase? Or was this huge increase a reaction by teachers of all demographics to the changes in Wisconsin law?

I don't think this is really grasping at straws to prove or disprove a point. I think looking at the data from the perspective of a realistic option (incentivized reitrement) is needed to honestly interpret the data.



 
556Frick
      ID: 387512315
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 15:30
Some pension plans base your benefits on the average of your last 5 years salary. That would be a pretty big incentive to retire.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that education standards are going to start dropping in Wisconsin, unless you are prepared to wait 5 years and more realistically 10+ years to see the effect and even then, it will be hard to pin point on the retirement of teachers this year. Most people who go into teaching are aware of the pay, I don't see the decrease having a substantial impact. On the flip side, how much more would teachers have to be paid to attract significantly more qualified candidates?

I'm curious to see if test scores in Wisconsin go up in the future. Older teachers are more likely to be inflexible and content to continue their same methods year after year, while newer teachers adapt new teaching strategies and ideas.
 
557sarge33rd
      ID: 20835110
      Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 15:35
Understand Frick, that those who teach, tend to do so for a love of the profession. Still, adequate compensation to pay bills needs to be present, or the person has little choice but to do something less personally rewarding.

Given the HUGELY vital role teachers play in our society; it is and always has been OBSCENE, how little we as a society compensate them for their work.
 
595Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Sep 03, 2011, 12:01
Given the HUGELY vital role teachers play in our society; it is and always has been OBSCENE, how little we as a society compensate them for their work.

Sarge, I think this notion is a little outdated. It certainly was true for a long time, but of late I think teachers are being compensated fairly. I think they have the union to thank for that, but probably more importantly, the rest of the nation's middle class salaries have been stagnant for some time.



Of course, location is paramount when determining what is a decent salary.

For instance, $57k would make it difficult to buy a house in a decent Chicago neighborhood, but if you lived near Baldy, you could see why he would be green with envy.
 
596sarge33rd
      ID: 45838311
      Sat, Sep 03, 2011, 12:38
Avgs, are well and good as far as they good, though they dont go far enough. As you said, location makes all the difference in the world.

$40k/yr in rural IA, NE, SD, KS, MO, IN, IL, MN, WI for example; would go farther than 60k yr in Chicago, NY, StL,KC, not to even mention CA, NYC, NJ.

I think if we are to look to avgs, then we need to break that down further by geographies.

Still, cut workers pay and you are likely to wind up getting what you paid for.
 
597Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Sat, Sep 03, 2011, 22:25
SZ has a great point. Teacher salaries have steadily risen due to their unions. Those changes haven't been significantly more than inflation, but that is probably better than a number of fields where wage increases haven't kept up with inflation.

I can't speak for other states, but in Indiana the typical teacher will get an annual raise due to having an additional year of experience. The union raises are a bump to the entire schedule of raises. First year teachers are probably going to be making 1/2 of teachers with 20+ years of experience. Most contracts also give an increase in pay for having a masters, which most teachers will eventually get due to continuing education requirements for licensing.
 
598sarge33rd
      ID: 3384411
      Sun, Sep 04, 2011, 12:04
Agreed that teacher salaries arent deep in the toilet like they used to be. That however, doesnt mean they have come all the way out into the main room where they belong.
 
602Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Sep 04, 2011, 14:16
Starting teachers have researched this subject, here.

Chicago teachers start out making $43,233 or $46,796 for highschool.

They'll get well over $2K automatic yearly raises.

They'll average a nice $60K yearly salary for their career so let's not cry for big city/high cost-of-living teachers either.
 
603sarge33rd
      ID: 3384411
      Sun, Sep 04, 2011, 14:38
and you think 60k is worth the 16 hr days more often than not...or the money the teachers will spend out of pocket for classroom supplies because the school doesnt have the money, or the value they provide for educating the next generation or just if you counted it as daycare and little else. For supervising 30 kids every day.

Republicans and their ilk in this country, LOVE to denigrade teachers, education assistance, public employees in general...yet they claim to be "tough on crime" (calls for public employees in the forms of law enforcement and judicial)..oh wait. But they also love to denigrade Judges.

Want, want, want...then belittle those who give you what you want.

The Republican way of life it seems.
 
612Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Sep 04, 2011, 21:07
I guess we should cut the salaries of police & fire, too, since they are clearly making too much money and they are all unionized.
 
613sarge33rd
      ID: 3384411
      Sun, Sep 04, 2011, 21:24
dont forget the EMTs...cut theirs too
 
614DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Sep 04, 2011, 21:57
We should make the bankers form a union so the Republicans will stop kissing their asses all day.
 
615sarge33rd
      ID: 3384411
      Sun, Sep 04, 2011, 22:03
raises a toast to that idea!
 
616sarge33rd
      ID: 3384411
      Sun, Sep 04, 2011, 22:03
or even...a republican Politicians union...then they could ruin their own lives
 
633Seward Norse
      ID: 2982698
      Fri, Sep 09, 2011, 09:44
At my school I'd say it's 70/30 liberal/conservative. Give or take. Definately not the 99/1 that seems to be thought. Of course, the policies of the day are trying to push that number closer to the 99, which I really don't understand. Unless politicians really believe the 99/1 mark already exists.
 
634Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 09, 2011, 11:08
Unless politicians really believe the 99/1 mark already exists.

I think the GOP leadership absolutely believes that to be the case.
 
635Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Sep 09, 2011, 11:13
No, but the 30% have to pretend that it is to keep their jobs.
 
636Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 09, 2011, 11:42
Ironically, with a union they don't have to.
 
637Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Sep 09, 2011, 11:50
Yeah, unions protect conservative employees from PC witch hunts. Riiiight.
 
638bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Fri, Sep 09, 2011, 20:46
My two closest neighbors are middle school teachers. One is a firm believer in Palin, and the other one is just ultra conservative. And believe me, there are not 198 other teachers to offset the indicated ratio. Also, they are both convinced that their union is particularly weak.

Either Baldwin is exaggerating, which of course he doesn't do, or maybe this school is the one in a thousand that does not follow the trend.
 
639Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Sep 09, 2011, 20:50
If I started documenting all the teachers facing PC firings in this country this thread would be the new longest Rotoguru thread ever.
 
640Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Sep 09, 2011, 21:35
If I started documenting all the teachers facing PC firings in this country this thread would be the new longest Rotoguru thread ever

nah, it could easily be topped by a thread combining your lies, mis-characterizations, and incredibly wrong "sky is falling" predictions.
 
641Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 00:08
Reason infinity +1 why I love unions.

Somehow their work is much much more valuable than your work. In fact you non-union workers don't even qualify for labor day.
 
642Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 00:10
I don't know that Baldwin realizes that the biggest problems with schools isn't unions. It is administrators.

It would blow his freaking mind if he every realized it...
 
643Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 00:21
I'd cut school administrators by 4/5 tomorrow if I was running things. And that goes all the way up to colleges.
 
644Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 00:55
Disagree with 642. In my opinion it's chronic behavior problem students.
 
645sarge33rd
      ID: 13856817
      Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 02:53
behavior problems, incited by broken homes, parents absent for work c-o-n-s-t-a-n-t-l-y, since the single income household simply isnt viable anymore.
 
646Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 04:41
Off the cuff I've been reading about schools with as many administrators as teachers. I've read about administrators doing significant world travel on official business. Just gotta check out that Thailand conference on discipline problems. Chicago is legendary for public sector abuses of course. It's so commonplace the voters have given up hope of ever cleaning it up.
 
647Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 04:53
You really gotta get a load of how Rahm Emanuel is treating the teacher unions. It's hysterical. I am amazed. The man can get away with any outrage. Stuff that would get republicans tarred and feathered.

I'd say it was almost republican austerity, except he is also bullying them into extended hour nanny-care...very Goals2000.
 
648wolfer
      ID: 28722812
      Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 21:45
This may or may not lead to something, but it is still interesting......................
 
649Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 19:35
 
650wolfer
      ID: 50832319
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 08:15
Recall update.
 
651sarge33rd
      ID: 910201912
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 12:59
WI School budget cuts results

Royall has been forced to close one school and has made cut to the foods program, and there are now fewer hours of science and math.

Good move Gov. Deprive your states youth, of a BASIC education.
 
652Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 13:06
Where do you think the next generation of GOP voters will come from? The ivory tower universities?

:)
 
653biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 10:58
Ignorance is truth.
 
654DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 19:22
Wisconsin: The Biggest Loser (of jobs)

Congratulations, Scott Walker!
 
655sarge33rd
      ID: 291113511
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 19:47
from your lonk DW:

The October jobs figures for the United States were just released. Illinois led the nation in job creation, adding 30,000 new jobs.

Sounds like those crooked IL politicians have it in for the voters there. I mean really, thinking they want to work and sh*t.
 
656DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 20:08
To be fair, they did manage to bottom things out a bit faster.
 
657Boldwin
      ID: 381151515
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 20:36
That piece is completely lying with statistics based on one report for one month. Here is the rest of the story.

Wisconsin:



http://www.deptofnumbers.com/employment/wisconsin/

Illinois:



http://www.deptofnumbers.com/employment/illinois/

Besides the general lack of growth in 2011, note the depth of the drops when Illinois lost jobs.

Businesses are leaving Illinois in droves and Illinois is scrambling to offer bribes to the big ones to stay after daring them to leave for a couple years.
 
658biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 20:45
Don't let rich corps use blackmail to impoverish your citizens.

Just say no.

Small companies are where the job growth is anyway, and you throw them under the bus when you subsidize the monsters who can afford a stable of lobbyists.
 
659DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 20:54
Re: 657 -- try running those on a percentage basis, since, you know, Illinois has twice as many people as Wisconsin. It's hardly shocking that they'd lose twice as many jobs. So, who's lying with statistics now? You're actually even worse at this than you think you are. You should just stick to making weepy faces and calling everyone trolls, at least you're relatively good at being a horrible person. When you start trying to use facts, you're just going to get crushed every time.

Also, you'll note that Wisconsin actually did substantially WORSE in 2010 than Illinois did, which actually makes me retract my comment in 656. Wisconsin had already taken the worst of the economy, and they're STILL sucking worse in 2011, thanks in part to Walker.

Aside from the minor issue of you being completely wrong again (no big shock), you're doing great.
 
660Boldwin
      ID: 381151515
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 21:04
The reality that professor in #654 was trying to obfuscate:
Democrat Illinois has a $13 billion deficit and passed a 66% state income tax increase in January. People are suffering, education is suffering, the economic situation appears hopeless.

Wisconsin's nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimates Republican Wisconsin will finish the two-year budget with a $300 million surplus. They lowered classroom size and funded health care, created jobs and cut taxes. Their economy is on an upswing.
I've never lived anywhere else in my life but as soon as the 89 yr old parents and in-law no longer need me here I am so gone from this messed up state.
 
661DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 21:15
They lowered classroom size? After Walker's reforms?

You're flat out lying. LYING. You're making this too easy.

At least, according to the people in Scott Walker's administration in charge of running the schools

2 Executive Summary
The following are key points from the analysis:

A much greater number of jobs were lost in the K-12 sector than in previous years
of budget cuts.

The depth and breadth of losses of experienced educators statewide is large. Nine
out of ten students attend a district that had a net loss of staff in one of four staffing
areas surveyed.

Replacement teachers and staff are younger, less experienced, and face higher student teacher ratios than the educators they replaced.

Fewer staff leads to class size increases with four in ten students attending in a district with increased class sizes in elementary grades.

Fewer staff leads to cuts in essential support and learning programs with three in
four students attending in a district that reduced sta ff in at least one such program
and one in five attending in a district that reduced more than fi ve such programs.

Diff erences between districts that had contracts compared to those without union
contracts were not statistically signi ficant.

Half of all districts reported that they used one-time federal funds to off set even
deeper cuts|funds that will be unavailable next year.

Two out of three districts reported that they expect to have as deep or even deeper
cuts next year. Only one out of 10 expect to have fewer cuts next year.


For context the median student teacher ratio in Wisconsin increased from 13.27 in
2010/11 to 13.5 in 2011/12. That means there are more students for fewer teachers. This
confi rms the reports by responding districts of increasing class sizes.


So, Boldwin, is Scott Walker's administration lying through their teeth, or are you?
 
662wolfer
      ID: 50832319
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 21:26
Not so fast on the job "creation"
 
663Boldwin
      ID: 381151515
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 21:40
I don't suppose it occurred to you that if 4/10 increased that leaves 6/10 classrooms to decrease. Not that I think that matters to education. Walker saved an incredible number of teaching jobs that would have been firings if not for Walker reforms.
 
664Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 21:41
Actually, we don't know that to be the case. We only know that 40% increased--we have no idea if the others decreased or stayed the same.
 
665DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 21:45
Nah, clearly, EVERY SINGLE CLASSROOM IN THE STATE had to change size. It's physically impossible to have a class stay the same size. The fact that the median classroom size increased might be a statistical hint that there's also something wrong with that statement.

LOL Boldwin, are you even trying any more or are you suffering from dementia?
 
666DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 21:58
Also, just noticed this: "Not that I think that matters to education."

You don't think class size matters at all in education? Really? You should, um, probably stop posting about it then if you're THAT ill-informed and willfully ignorant. Then again, that doesn't stop you on anything else.
 
667sarge33rd
      ID: 291113511
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 22:30
Reducing Class Size, does it matter

Tennessee's Project STAR (Student-Teacher Achievement Ratio) and two associated data collections have made important contributions to the quality of research evidence concerning the reduction of class size. STAR was a 4-year longitudinal study of kindergarten, first-, second-, and third-grade classrooms in Tennessee which began in 1985. STAR compared classes of 13-17 students with classes of 22-26 students both with and without an additional instructional aide in the larger classes. Participating teachers did not receive any professional training focusing on teaching in reduced size classes. STAR was unusual because it possessed essential features of a controlled research experiment designed to produce reliable evidence about the effects of reducing class size:

Study size. Project STAR included 79 schools, more than 300 classrooms and 7,000 students, with students being followed through 4 years of experience in the given class size.

Random assignment. Teachers and students were randomly assigned to the three different kinds of classes in order to ensure that the study was not biased by who was in which type of class.

In-school design. All participating schools implemented at least one of each of the three types of classes in order to cancel out the possible influences coming from variations in the quality of the participating schools that might affect the quality of the classroom activity.

The evidence from student testing in STAR showed that the students in the smaller classes outperformed the students in the larger classes, whether or not the larger class teachers had an aide helping them. Project STAR found that:

Smaller class students substantially outperformed larger class students on both standardized (Stanford Achievement Tests) and curriculum-based tests (Basic Skills First). This was true for both white and minority students in smaller classes, and for smaller class students from inner city, urban, suburban, and rural schools.

The positive achievement effect of smaller classes on minority students was double that for majority students initially, and then was about the same.

A smaller proportion of students in the smaller classes was retained in-grade, and there was more early identification of students' special educational needs.

There were no significant differences in academic achievement for students in the larger classes with or without an additional instructional aide.14

Subsequent research efforts provided important additional evidence on the positive effects of class size reduction. In 1989, the Lasting Benefits Study began a follow-up study to examine whether the effects of the smaller class size experience persisted when students were returned to normal size classes. The study is still ongoing. To date, the research findings include:

In fourth grade, students from the smaller classes still outperformed the students from the larger classes in all academic subjects.

In fourth grade, students from the smaller classes were better behaved than students from the larger classes (i.e., student classroom effort, initiative, and disruptiveness).

At least through eighth grade, a decreasing but still significant higher academic achievement level for the students from the smaller classes persists.15


Ummmm, yeah....it matters
 
668DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 22:35
Oh, now you're going to post some junk from some liberal whackjob state like Tennessee to support your wild claims, Sarge?

You should know facts have no place in this argument.
 
669Boldwin
      ID: 281131521
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 22:35
To the teacher's union mostly.

Amazing the great college lectures in a room full of hundreds. Harvard traditionally has class sizes between 80-120....poor poor underprivileged Harvard students. How dumb will they turn out?
 
671DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 22:44
To clarify, from sarge's article:

"Smaller class students substantially outperformed larger class students on both standardized (Stanford Achievement Tests) and curriculum-based tests (Basic Skills First). This was true for both white and minority students in smaller classes, and for smaller class students from inner city, urban, suburban, and rural schools."

Now, you have three choices here:

1. Admit defeat, or

2. Try to say that standardized tests don't matter or are a terrible measure of performance, and make us take 30 seconds on Google to dig up a bunch of your old posts arguing exactly the opposite when it came to stuff like No Child Left Behind, after which you will admit defeat, or

3. Scrunch your face up in a ball, cry like Dawson, and storm off, only to try to change the subject or pretend you never read this stuff a few weeks from now, possibly after futilely trying step 2, and probably while calling everyone else a troll for daring to post actual factual articles and not opinion pieces from WND.

Given your completely gutless MO, I'm placing a large wager on 3.
 
672Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 00:01
Class sizes don't matter much for classes (like at Harvard) in which the students bring more aptitude, preparation, and social capital.

In fact, studies have shown that the best way for students to acquire those kinds of things is to have gone through (wait for it) smaller and more personal class sizes in k-12.

In studies of the most disadvantaged, one of the single most important factor in learning (as measured by test scores) is a revision of class size downward.

It is far from the only factor, obviously, but those who dismiss class size as not being a factor at all haven't read the literature. And deserve the mocking laughter which follows their uninformed partisan talking points.
 
674wolfer
      ID: 27239922
      Wed, Dec 07, 2011, 21:38
Survey of how its going on the front line.
 
675Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Dec 29, 2011, 14:15
From the No Kidding Department: Paying teachers more improves pupil performance.
 
676wolfer
      ID: 50832319
      Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 22:06
Just a "few" signatures were turned in today.................
 
677Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 14:09
Alabama state senator: Raising teacher pay is not Biblical
 
678sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 14:24
There's a rising star for the GOP. Claims Biblical inspiration for his selfishness, as he votes himself a 62% pay raise.
 
679sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 19:26
secret-report-scott-walker-dire-failure as Milwaukee County Executive
 
680sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Feb 19, 2012, 19:51
Walkers request for extra time to review signatures...denied,

A Wisconsin judge Friday denied Governor Scott Walker extra time to review the estimated one million signatures submitted last month to the state in an effort to recall him.

Dane County Judge Richard Niess refused to give Walker's campaign the two extra weeks it requested to examine the signatures on the estimated 152,000 pages of petitions recall organizers turned into the Government Accountability Board.
 
681Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 16:23
Finally! Some video evidence of voting fraud! Er, maybe we won't be seeing this on FOX News after all.
 
683wolfer
      ID: 28722812
      Mon, Mar 05, 2012, 21:49
Here is the best part of this mess....


Walker was going to newspaper editorial boards before the election to say he was going to negotiate using collective bargaining.
 
684sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Tue, Mar 06, 2012, 00:38
WI Senate Bill, legislates that single motherhood is a contributory-causul factor in child abuse.

Senate Bill 507, introduced by Republican Senator Glenn Grothman, moves to amend existing state law by "requiring the Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention Board to emphasize nonmarital parenthood as a contributing factor to child abuse and neglect."

Widows and widowers from across WI, flee the state to avoid prosecution. smdh
 
685wolfer
      ID: 91147515
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 14:52
This makes things a bit more interesting.......

It is now an even split.........
 
686Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 15:47
Unions not so fond of sponteneous high school student counter-protesters.

 
687Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 15:48
source
 
688Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 01:12
Judge strikes down part of Wisconsin anti-union law.

Looks like Walker's attempt to divide police & fire unions from the rest of the riff raff unionists has caused part of the law to get tossed.
 
689Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 16:33
Santorum with a solid response to the Planned Parenthood bombing in Wisconsin.
 
690wolfer
      ID: 53381120
      Wed, Apr 11, 2012, 21:38
Yet more wonderful stuff from my governor.....


 
691Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Sat, Apr 14, 2012, 19:58
Today in Wisconsin:



"Why do I have to work 'till I die so you can retire at 55?" - Althouse (via Instapundit)
 
692sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Sat, Apr 14, 2012, 22:45
voter fraud in Wisconsin
 
693Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Apr 14, 2012, 22:51
Yeah, nothing like fake stats on signs to make the GOP go crazy.
 
694Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Sat, Apr 14, 2012, 23:09
Fake? Only in the sense that a number of public sector workers manage to retire with two pensions by 55.
 
695sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Sat, Apr 14, 2012, 23:43
Some even get 3 B. So what? You think 20+ years in the military and/or the Postal Service, is easy? If they earn those retirement benefits, they are still entitled to their social security.

I'd like to see a means test for drawing soc sec, but the GOP wont stand for it.
 
696Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Sun, Apr 15, 2012, 00:20
Yup, one day as a substitute teacher is haaaard.
 
697sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Sun, Apr 15, 2012, 00:36
If there were many students like some on this forum, it would be gawd awful hard.
 
698Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Apr 15, 2012, 01:34
Knowledge causes liberals, sarge. Therefore, cutting teachers will encourage FOX News viewship, mindless following of what the GOP overlords say, and a reversal of this stupid "fairness" meme that the Left keeps foisting onto the country.
 
699Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Sun, Apr 15, 2012, 07:02
You didn't read the link.
 
700wolfer
      ID: 5045589
      Tue, May 08, 2012, 10:55
Primary day..................
 
701Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Tue, May 08, 2012, 13:17
fun, fun, fun. Thanks for keeping us updated, wolfer.
 
702wolfer
      ID: 13413219
      Tue, May 08, 2012, 21:18
Thanks.

The primary results are going to be interesting for another reason. For those who do not know, people can cross party lines to vote. So the numbers will probably will be skewed, to what extent is to be determined.

Also, there is going to be a unity rally tomorrow among the Democrats. From what I am hearing, A lot of people will be behind the Democratic challenger, regardless of winner.
 
703wolfer
      ID: 5045589
      Wed, May 09, 2012, 08:35
It's a rematch from 2010.

This HAS to be the best story from yesterday.
 
704sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Wed, May 09, 2012, 11:23
Rep party recfruiting and running "fake" candidates

The issue of whether or not it's legal to run for office under the name of a political party to which one doesn't actually belong, for the express purpose of prolonging the election cycle or even hijacking it completely, first came up during last summer's recalls of state senators.

The question has come up again now, after the Republican Party of Wisconsin openly announced that it had been recruiting "fake" candidates to run as Democrats in the recalls against four Republican state senators.
 
705Seattle Zen
      ID: 4811181319
      Sat, May 12, 2012, 20:26
Great story, wolfer . Amanda did nothing wrong and the cop who said she should not leave the scene of an "accident" is truly an idiot.
 
706wolfer
      ID: 53381120
      Mon, May 14, 2012, 22:06
Walker may have another problem now.

This is exactly the opposite he said under oath to a Congressional hearing last year.
 
707Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:08
Maybe his views have "evolved"?

I don't think they have, but I think it would be nearly impossible to convict him of perjury.

Any thoughts on how the election is going to Wolfer? It seems whenever I'm in Wisconsin I see a handful of people out protesting and the Occupy Movement camp in Madison appears to be shrinking, although I haven't been by since February and anyone camping out in Madison in February is partly insane IMO.

I don't have a problem with Right to Work legislation and it seems strange that it is an attack on the middle class to have legislation that allows them freedom of choice from union dues. Unions are not always a good thing. I look back at my last employer where the former union members are looking into sueing the union based on the horrible advice and guidance they were given.
 
708Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, May 15, 2012, 10:10
Walker is up 9 points from what I see, and will no doubt cruise to victory if the Left doesn't stop resting on its outrage and start working to win this election.
 
709Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Tue, May 15, 2012, 11:58
So basically the left of Wisconsin is using the general Republican strategy. Nice to see it failing on both sides.

Voters want solutions and strategies, not just saying that the other guy is wrong. Shocking.
 
710Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, May 15, 2012, 13:03
Exactly. I've no doubt that Democrats will wake up and tighten this race (Dems, after all, seemingly do their best work when on the brink of despairing defeat). But this is exactly why the Democrats seem incapable of a knockout political punch.
 
711Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Tue, May 15, 2012, 22:46
Rahm Emanuel is instituting the majority of Scott Walker's reforms to considerably less angst in Chicago. He's taking a remarkably hard nosed stance.

The excuse for the double standard usually given is that Rahm at least isn't disrespecting public sector workers in the process. Huh?
 
712wolfer
      ID: 5045589
      Thu, May 17, 2012, 14:58
All I am going to say right now is that which poll did you see those numbers from, Perm Dude? Baiscally I have yet to see a poll to be "closer" to the middle.
 
713Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, May 17, 2012, 15:38
Latest poll I've seen shows a tightening, but Walker still up 6.

Earlier poll here.
 
714wolfer
      ID: 53381120
      Thu, May 17, 2012, 18:47
That same poll had Walker down a point two weeks ago. So take it with a grain of salt.

There had been a lot of "bogus" polls out. A great example is of a We Ask America poll from last Saturday that had Walker with a 9 point lead. The only problem is that We Ask America is an arm of the Illinois Manufacturers’ Association. Huh? Can someone explain to me why they would be interested?

Finally, this poll was released before two interesting bits of info came out:
Lookie here, 56k more jobs! The funny thing is that when the same report said that Wisconsin gained 9500 jobs last summer, Walker was quick to tout that. This is also "fishy" because there is already an ad out touting the extra jobs.

Also, today it came out the Wisconsin LOST more jobs.

Bottom line is regardless of what you hear, both races are still too close to call at this point. Most of the people in this state have already made up their minds on who they are going to vote for.
 
715Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Thu, May 17, 2012, 22:12
Breitbart:
Bad economic data aside, 2012 may just shape up to be the best year ever for conservatives. Since last week, I have reported that the Wisconsin Recall election is moving firmly in Scott Walker's direction. Big Labor's preferred candidate, Kathleen Falk, was trounced in last week's Democrat primary. Scott Walker, who Big Labor assured us was universally despised, got almost as many votes as all the Democrats combined. This afternoon, we learn that the DNC has wisely decided not to waste a dime on the recall.

The news came from a panicked email from MoveOn.org:
BREAKING NEWS FROM WISCONSIN: The Democratic National Committee isn't investing in the massive get out the vote effort in Wisconsin to recall Scott Walker.

Wisconsin is ground zero for Democrats this summer—and there are only three weeks before Election Day—which is why this breaking news just doesn't make sense.
The best possible interpretation from a Dem POV is that Obama is selfishly conserving every dime for his own election [something he isn't above] and they still have a chance in Wisconsin. More likely the DNC has read the writing on the wall and just doesn't want to throw good money after bad.

Of course the DNC no longer does the lion's share of the fundraising and spending so...after McCain/Feingold that role went elsewhere.
 
716Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 20:51
I've received three emails from the DNC today, asking for money specifically for the Wisconsin election. I've no idea why anyone would think the DNC is pulling a Ron Paul and letting things ride.
 
717Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 19, 2012, 07:07
Wisconsin reporter's blog.

This story is really about Moveon.orgs efforts to shake the DNC money tree re Wisc.

I'm wondering if the DNC really stopped money support [Breitbart's spin] or never started money support [Washington Post's spin].
 
718Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 19, 2012, 07:10
PD

Please double-check those requests and see if they merely piggy-back on the Wisconsin issue, or if they actually promise funds raised by that mailout will be used in Wisconsin.
 
719Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 19, 2012, 07:14
I guess Breitbart didn't really say the DNC just now made the decision not to support Wisconsin. It's more like Breitbart decided to notice it now, that the DNC has not thrown money in that direction. Moveon sure decided to notice it now.
 
720wolfer
      ID: 53381120
      Sat, May 19, 2012, 14:32
The DNC finally threw money towards Wisconsin after feeling the heat from people across the country. The Democratic Governors Association backed Barrett from the start.
 
721Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 19, 2012, 18:01
How much, when?
 
722Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 19, 2012, 19:59
#718: Already erased. I get far too many solicitations to deal with.

Just found out yesterday that, as an elected official, I can get out of many of those annoying polls. Next GOP push poll I get, I wait until the end, then mention that I'm an elected official and therefore my responses aren't typically used in polling.
 
723wolfer
      ID: 594191921
      Sat, May 19, 2012, 22:20
Re 721

First ad.

Also, Barrett said as much on the Ed Show Thursday night. The contribution is up to 2 million now.
 
724wolfer
      ID: 53381120
      Sun, May 20, 2012, 19:10
You can either chalk this up to the plot thickens or just another poll......
 
725wolfer
      ID: 5045589
      Thu, May 24, 2012, 10:10
Dead heat?


More $$$$ for Barrett.


What a college "buddy" thinks of Walker
 
726Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Thu, May 24, 2012, 16:57
Kinda dishonest to call that guy a buddy of Walker's, doncha think?
 
727Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, May 24, 2012, 20:40
that's probably why he used the quotation marks.
 
728wolfer
      ID: 53381120
      Thu, May 24, 2012, 22:16
That is what came up when I googled somethine else. A buddy of Walkers.
 
729wolfer
      ID: 53381120
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 22:17
First of two debates was tonight.
 
730Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 16:42
 
731Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 19:51
Nate Silver is tentatively projecting Walker to survive recall.
 
732Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 23:36
 
733Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 23:37
Not because it's easy. Just because it's necessary.
 
734Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 23:59
there's so much that can be taken from the little graphs in in 732.

significant is that the numbers are ancient, as they come from the 1994-1995 academic year. Certainly you can find similar numbers to back up your claims that didn't come from the early 1990s?

one of the graphs that Baldwin didn't re-print shows that the home school kids who had the most money spent on them scored higher than the home school kids that had the least spent on them - something that likely correlates to public education and shows that we need more money in public education.

Educating the masses is critical. paying for it is critical.

public education - as evidenced by the fact that less than 2.5 million of our 76.5 million studens are home schooled - is critical.
 
735Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 00:31
As a homeschooling father, let me just be up front and say that Baldwin doesn't speak for me on any homeschooling issues. I don't care what the position is.
 
736Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 01:19
PD

The fact that you aren't entrusting your most precious possession to public education is a point in your favor.

Which doesn't help them escape relentless PC indoctrination sadly.
 
737Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 01:25
As a relativist, you don't really care about homeschooling. Or schooling for that matter. You only care how discussion of specific policies in the area might hurt Democrats.

This goes for virtually all subjects and sub-subjects, for that matter. The only reason you bring up any issue is to either send out bad PR about Democrats, or to defensively attack others for posting seemingly bad PR about the GOP.

You don't speak for me on this issue because I'm not convinced you care about homeschooling except as a tool to attack others about.
 
738Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 06:32
I did homeschool.
 
739Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 06:33
And I'll compare SAT's and ACT's anytime you want to see who loves learning the most.
 
740Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 06:38
And I avidly follow government attacks against homeschooling around the world. When the government makes homeschooling illegal here as they have in Sweden and Germany you'll help the government round up homeschoolers for prosecution.
 
741Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 08:28
We could also look at the number of children who are not vaccinated and see a similar rise in the numbers. Does that mean that parents are smarter or that they are buying into bad science new age crap?

And SAT or ACT scores have nothing remotely to do with this subject. Case in point, another Illinois child who I'm guessing is smarter then Boldwin. Ted Kaczynski.
 
742Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 09:34
And I'll compare SAT's and ACT's anytime you want to see who loves learning the most.

and i'll tell you that SAT and ACT scores aren't necessarily an indication of anything. and they sure aren't an indicator of "who loves learning the most."

my youngest brother is one of the smartest people i've ever met. he loves to learn more than anyone i've ever seen. he did miserable on the SAT because of learning disabilities. but he battled through, and is getting close to completing his doctorate in math.

i work in education. i've seen kids with miserable SAT and ACT scores go on to get jobs at Intel and make 60K a year when they're 20. I've seen kids with lousy SAT and ACT scores score into the high 30s and 40s on the Wonderlic, and go on to fantastic well-paying jobs.
 
743Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 13:38
All of which misses the point. By pulling support for public education teachers, the Far Right has decided that a large segment of students don't deserve the support necessary to succeed.
 
744Tree
      ID: 59520414
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 15:39
By pulling support for public education teachers, the Far Right has decided that a large segment of students don't deserve the support necessary to succeed.

which is what i said in 734.
 
745Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 22:06
Public education isn't working and throwing unlimited money and putting two administrators for every teacher and unions in charge of the whole catastrophe isn't the answer.

Your caring is for nothing because your methods don't work.
 
746wolfer
      ID: 20537421
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 22:37
With the election tomorrow, this is all you need to know............
 
747sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 23:44
public education isnt working? Gee, where did Bill Gates come from, Steve Jobs, etc etc etc
 
748Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 08:19
What is your point Sarge? Gates went to exclusive private schools and Jobs went to public schools.
 
749Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 10:41
Intrade: 95.2% chance Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker will win today
 
750Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 10:47
Wisconsin recall: Democrats prepare for recall recount

Their way of proding their voters into believing there's a chance. 'Hey, we whiffed in changing the courts, and we whiffed in changing the state legislature but maybe we can get it close enuff to steal this one like they did in Minnesota.'
 
751DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 10:51
You misspelled Florida there. ;)
 
752Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 10:57
#745: So what is your solution? You don't have one--you essentially want to end whatever good public education does do and replace it with nothing but political attitude.

It does look like a close race in WI, but I don't believe that Dems will win--they haven't worked up a coherent strategy, their progressive activism there (which seems to be driving the campaign) presumes that they merely need to demonstrate that Walker is anti-union and the population will fall into line.

Dems don't really have a response to a pointedly (and fixed) partisan campaign on the Right.
 
753Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 11:57
So what is your solution?

Vouchers and private education, of course.

Dems don't really have a response to... the success of small government/free enterprise.
 
754Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 12:10
There simply aren't enough spaces in private schools to take in all those students. Even if they wanted to.
 
755biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 13:00
Where I grew up, private schools were where you went when you were expelled from the top-notch, well-funded public schools.

 
756Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 13:18
Vouchers and private education, of course.

This is one I strongly disagree with. I feel its our local governments duty to provide an education for our kids. I pay taxes for that education and will gladly do so. But I do not want my tax dollars going towards my neighbor choosing to put their kid in a private school. That is their choice. And if I choose to put my kids in a private school, that is my choice and should not be my neighbors burden.
 
757sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 13:20
My point Frick, is that either private schools or public ones; can produce over achievers, achievers and under achievers. Blaming or crediting the educational system, is smoke and mirrors misdirection.
 
758wolfer
      ID: 5045589
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 13:33
From what I am hearing, turnout is "wild". Some spots, like Dane county are forcasting 80-88% turnout.


Also, people are resorting to this.
 
759Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 13:41
Exciting day in America's Dairyland.
 
760Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 14:46
It seems like it would be very possible to trace the robocalls and find out who was behind them. The parties behind them should be prosecuted and the party, if they had nothing to do with it, should apologize for the actions.

High Turn Out
 
761sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 15:11
756, I agree with whole heartedly. I have long opposed tax credits, for those who send their kids to a private school. A parent who does so, CHOSE to do so, and therefore CHOSE to bear that burden. My taxes are higher, to make up for their tax credit, thereby causing me to supplement their choice.
 
762Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 17:40
There simply aren't enough spaces in private schools to take in all those students. Even if they wanted to.

Lol!

Well duh!

Give everyone the cash the government now spends on education in the form of a voucher, 'if you build it, they will come', the funding mechanism that is. Oh yes, private enterprise will fill the need and since they already do a better job than public education and they already pay their teachers less than public schools, and they already know how to run an efficient operation, the success would be astounding and the savings too.
 
763Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 18:10
So you think that high quality private schools will spring up if "the government" gives everyone, essentially, school stamps.

And you call the Dems naive.
 
764sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 18:28
Yes, paying teachers less, will certainly tend to draw in the very best.
 
765Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 19:13
I was told today about that fact. My friend with the teacher wife told me today that private schools pay less, get better results, and that he hoped Walker won today. Strange but true. He values the truth above his own back pocket.
 
766Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 19:15
And for sure public schools have two or three times too many administrators if not more. The efficiencies and efficacy of private enterprise would be amazing.
 
767Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 19:17
Private schools often do better because they can pick and choose their students. They also do it cheaper because many of the teachers are also religious (so they take nominal salaries), and the buildings are paid for by churches.

The belief that you shut down public schools and private ones will spring up to fill the gap better and cheaper is a myth.

There are very few examples of successful private for-profit el-hi schools in this country. And none which were required to take in all applicants.
 
768Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 19:24
Right right right, one public school teacher forced to teach political correctness instead of genuine valuable knowledge, working with three administrators and a union rep looking over her shoulder, who can't be fired and doesn't have the slightest accountability, her room is cleaned by a janitor making 160K, the school bus driver may be making up to a 160K, she hasn't had any motivation to do her best in living memory, but she can out teach a private school.

In yer dreams.
 
769sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 20:07
good gawd B, taking one extreme from each of 35 cities, and calling that the overall norm? Then you best just hush, when someone chastises your entire religion for the acts of a few, who repre4sent a much greater percent of that population, then your examples do to overall public education.
 
770Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 20:13
You are talking in your sleep again, Boldwin.

What's next--we get rid of the police and give people "cop vouchers?"
 
771Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 20:18
768 - some of those ARE real issues. But they are issues with resolutions. They are not and should not be complete roadblocks in the educational system. Having 3 administrators looking over teachers shoulders...if we as citizens pay attention to our schools, we can get rid of those extra admins. Bus driver making $160k. Find out what else is going on there. I believe there is a bus driver out there that makes $160/year. But I also wouldn't at all be surprised to find out that there is other information to consider. Other jobs done, other means of income, etc.

But you'll never admit that even if there is 1 single outlier example of a bus driver making $160k/year solely from a salary in the public system that it is the unusual case and NOT the norm.

I believe the government should get out of all business. But teaching our kids should NOT be a business. It should not rest in the private sector. It should fall to state and local governments (not the federal) to provide the tools necessary to teach our children.

It should not rely on a for-profit model.
 
772Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 20:58
Most private schools are not for profit, at least traditionally, that might be changing with the voucher programs.

Private schools might have some advantages from being able to pick students, but a far bigger impact is that parents who send their children to private schools care. Their kids would do better than average in a public school as well. Children of parents who look at school as free day care are not going to do as well because the parents don't value the education.

Private school teachers also take lower salaries so they don't have to deal with problem children who public schools have to keep. I was surprised to learn that most public schools now have teams of teachers who are trained on how to restrain a child. Yes teams, and this is for middle and grades schools as well. Private schools teachers also take lower salaries if their children receive free or reduced tuition.
 
773Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 21:36
I wonder what it would do to parent motivation if they had to excersize some private enterprise in getting their kids into the school they wanted.
 
774wolfer
      ID: 39537520
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 21:38
Now since the polls closed, for those who are watching the results here, pay attention to the 23rd Senate district by Racine. That district went for Obama in 08 and Walker for 10. If the incumbent Republican loses that seat, then Walker is in more trouble than people think.
 
775Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 21:50
Live results
 
776Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 22:06
With 7.5% reported, Walker is winning in Milwaukee County.



That dark blue county in the lowest right corner.
 
777Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 23:01
That didn't last long. Barrett is now up by more than 12% with less than 30% counted.

It won't be enough. I've been saying for several weeks now that Walker was looking to win this thing, and I simply don't see any change from that right now.
 
778Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 23:07
Yeah, Milwaukee was always gonna go Dem but Barret would have needed a tsunami turnout in his favor in the few counties like that.
 
779Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 07:17
schadenfreude
 
780Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 07:40
Madison City Clerk: Turnout Is On Pace To Reach 119% - Think Progress
 
781Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 07:45
"We are the 119%" - Taken from random commenter
 
782wolfer
      ID: 5045589
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 08:43
Re 780 and 781.....


This should explain the 119%


Also the Democrats did pick up the one seat. So they control the Senate.
 
783wolfer
      ID: 5045589
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 08:48
And for those who are interested, some exit polls from yesterday.
 
784Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 11:44
The two interesting things from the exit polls that I saw were that Obama was favored among voters over Romney and that the middle class overwhelmingly preferred Walker.
 
785Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 12:57
I wonder if there is one sane democrat senator they can pry away? Oh well, gridlock is almost as good as winning. The wallet is still safe.
 
786DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 13:04
I'm sure there is a 0.000% chance there is a sane Democrat senator they could pry away. Do you see why?
 
787Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 13:13
Agreed. The GOP in that state has already demonstrated that they are simply not interested in including Democrats in the process once they get control. They literally have nothing to offer a Dem to switch.
 
788Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 13:30
They weren't willing to include Dems or the Dems just walked out when they were the minority of the elected officials and the elected majority passed a law that apparently the majority of constituents endorsed.
 
789Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 13:40
Actually, we don't know that-in fact, there is plenty of polling that the public wants more power for public sector unions than Walker wants them to have.

All we know for sure is that a majority of voters did not want to replace Walker with Barrett before Walker's original term is up.
 
790boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 13:48
If you look at the exit poll in 783 you see that majority of the voters approved of the limiting public workers ability to use collective bargaining.
 
791Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 14:29
But not eliminating them entirely, or limiting them as much as Walker would have them limited.
 
792Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 14:54
A thoughtful piece by Walter Russell Mead, echoing some of the points I've made previously.
 
793Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 15:04
If you look at the exit poll in 783 you see that majority of the voters approved of the limiting public workers ability to use collective bargaining.


and

But not eliminating them entirely, or limiting them as much as Walker would have them limited.


See post 218. Believe I said something along those lines a bit over a year ago.
 
794Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 15:47
Wow, Walter Russell Mead just united [more or less] Perm Dude and Boldwin in one of the best writings I've read all year.
 
795Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 16:23
These two paragraphs really capture it, I think:

The left’s problem in Wisconsin wasn’t that the right had too much money. The left’s problem is that the left’s agenda didn’t have enough support from the public. Poll after poll after poll showed that the public didn’t share the left’s estimation of the Walker reforms. Many thought they were a pretty good idea; many others didn’t much like the reforms but didn’t think they were bad enough or important enough to justify a year of turmoil and a recall election.

The left lost this election because it failed to persuade the people that its analysis was correct. The people weren’t a herd of sheep dazzled by big money campaign ads on TV; the Wisconsin electorate chewed over the issues at leisure, debated them extensively, considered both points of view — and then handed the left a humiliating, stinging and strategic defeat.


Of course, you're going to get a lot of despairing outcries after a loss at the end of a hard campaign: The Right seemed to console themselves, after 2008, that the country was hoodwinked by a smooth-talking tele-prompter reader who made himself to be a political savior. And the Left will blame "outside money" (after they poured in millions of their own dollars), "unusual return totals," and Koch Brothers (their current boogiemen).

Here's the thing: They lost because they thought just being right on the issues was enough to win the election.
 
796Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 16:38
Lol! No really, what did they need? Do tell. More protests? More street theater? One more building takeover? Violence? A minority candidate? Better story-telling?

You learned nothing from the piece, PD. Moribund ideas from the past, self-serving careerists protecting sclerotic institutions, yeah, they lost despite being 'in the right'. OMG!
 
797Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 16:40
I disagree, PD. They lost because the collective bargaining issue wasn't as much of a hot button as they thought it was. Removing public sector bargaining power is now a moderate position, not a conservative one. You'll see extreme conservatives have this position based on their disdain for public sector unions (and public sector workers in general) but also moderates who wish to see public sector benefits more closely aligned with private sector benefits.
 
798Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 16:44
You guys are playing with me, right? Now Razor says something I agree with.
 
799Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 16:51
Why the recall effort dropped the collective bargaining issue, barely mentioning it.
 
800Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 16:57
Besides the fact that reigning back union excesses worked and was popular...

Reason #2 that Walker won, recalls should be for misconduct only, not endlessly refighting elections.

Let's not forget that Walker is as uncharismatic a figure as you can find in a governor's chair. He won purely by 'being right'.
 
801Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 18:02
Not according to the actual voters, rather than the out-of-state non-voting projectors.

#797: Exactly what I've been saying. The Left was correct on the issue, but wrong in that it thought it could win an election about it.

#796: You completely misread my post. I'm guess I'm just lucky that it doesn't really matter to me whether you do or not.
 
802wolfer
      ID: 5045589
      Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 08:33
#785 and #786


They have to basically pry 2 Democrats away because of this guy. He is the Senator referenced in posts 47 and 168, voted against Walker on most of his bills, and is trying to, dare I say it, bring some common sense, to this state.....

 
803Boldwin
      ID: 49521221
      Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 02:22
2011 viral video about honey badgers presages hilarious video about badger state governor.
 
804Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 15:49
Schadenfreude sweet schadenfreude.

 
805wolfer
      ID: 198112510
      Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 11:11
Wait a minute, he actually "likes" a union..............
 
806Boldwin
      ID: 58939311
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 01:04


The People's Cube
 
807biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 10:41
Or you could look at the facts instead of the silly photoshop nonsense.



Sorry to interrupt. Go back to your fever-dreams.

 
808Boldwin
      ID: 5393249
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 10:56
What makes public sector workers think they shouldn't share the recession with the rest of us?
 
809DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 11:05
What makes you think that they haven't, given that there are fewer of them than when the recession started and there are more public sector workers?
 
810Boldwin
      ID: 5393249
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 11:15
See that flat line in #807?

That's what Obama and his purple shirts did. They took our money and rode out the depression in style, without a dip and they even held us up for pay raises.
 
811Frick
      ID: 2193319
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 11:32
So contracts that were already in place should be ignored? Most of the pay raises that occurred were the result of contract requirements, not new contracts being signed.

Adding to the unemployment numbers with public sector employees wouldn't have helped the economy in any way. Although I wonder how many of those job losses are state and local employees versus federal employees.

 
812Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 12:10
What makes public sector workers think they shouldn't share the recession with the rest of us?

Contracts, for one. The ones that still have jobs. You might not have noticed that one of the reasons for the persistent unemployment is that government has been shedding jobs.

What makes the wealthy think the same thing, I wonder?
 
813Boldwin
      ID: 5393249
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 12:13
What makes the wealthy think the same thing, I wonder?

That is nothing but unthinking hatred.
 
814DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 12:23
Project much?
 
815Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 13:00
One of the things we've learned from the recently-left recession is just how deeply those with big pockets were screwing over people in an effort to get others to cover their risk.

It is only "unthinking" to believe that a financial services industry who thought themselves bubble-proof had nothing to do with what we are all paying the price for.

The wealthy ficked up our economy, and have been asking the rest of us to cover their losses but they have the audacity to tell us they should pay even less in taxes despite a wealth distribution unseen in modern history.

Next time your bank losses millions while paying executive bonuses out, I'd like you to reconsider why the wealthy believe they should not share in the recession.
 
816Frick
      ID: 2193319
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 13:50
I agree with you in general.

However

a wealth distribution unseen in modern history

Do you mean in developed countries? Because there are countries currently that have worse wealth distribution ratios. Granted, they are mainly undeveloped countries.
 
817Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 14:11
Well, sure, developed countries. i.e., those countries where the Right would assume that the freedom to pursue happiness would guarantee more equitable distribution as a result of those guaranteed freedoms.
 
818Frick
      ID: 2193319
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 15:59
Sorry to nitpick, but I'm currently reading Why Nations Fail and it goes into great detail about the absolutist countries and the disparities between the elites and the general population, including modern countries.

I haven't finished yet, but it has me looking at our country in a new light. If we exclude the radical right, does the right, or anyone, believe that freedom to pursue happiness happiness and guaranteed freedoms does, or should, guarantee more equitable distribution of wealth?

 
819Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:00
Economically, that is exactly Mitt Romney's plan.
 
820boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:40
I think you will find that the problem is not inequality, inequality is more of a symptom of failing nation states. Fighting inequality only treats the symptoms not the problem. A better generalization is that states fail because of declining resources/competitive advantage. As resources dwindle they become more and more aggregated with the few.
 
821Boldwin
      ID: 5393249
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:41
The wealthy perfectly well understand they aren't bubbleproof. They deal with dramatic swings of fortune all the time. It is very rare when they are in a too big to fail status where they can count on a government bailout. Most wealthy would rather the government didn't pick and chose winners and losers and bailout selective favorites.
----
And I'll never understand why anyone would choose a guaranteed equal distribution of failure.
 
822Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 17:19
Fighting inequality only treats the symptoms not the problem.

This is like saying fighting injustice only treats the symptoms but not actual crime.

Wealth distribution is directly tied to the American dream of opportunity to move up. The higher that wealth is tied up in fewer and fewer people, the more difficult it is for people to move up at all, no matter where there starting level is.
 
823sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 20:44
re 813.

No, that would be 2177 and 2178 here
 
824Boldwin
      ID: 5393249
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 20:47
Wealth distribution is directly tied to the American dream of opportunity to move up

There is no 'up' from equal distribution.
 
825sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 21:14
Obama does not seek "equal distribution". He seeks, an even playing field. Where opportunity, real opportunity, exists for all. You know, its almost identical in concept to what our FF sought.
 
826Boldwin
      ID: 5393249
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 21:43
Yeah, his views and the FF were identical vis-a-vis the Bourgeois Petit.
 
827sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 21:49
You dont know WHAT Obama's views are. You only "know", what your vitriol fueled nonsense tells you.
 
828Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 00:33
There is no 'up' from equal distribution

Who was asking for "equal distribution?" Certainly not me. Or Obama. You seem to be confusing "equal opportunity to advance" with "communism."
 
829Frick
      ID: 2193319
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 08:59
Re: 822

Why is it more difficult for people to move up? Didn't the Robber Barons have more influence and a greater percentage of the wealth distribution then today? Our political and economic institutions were ultimately able to break their powers. I will agree that we appear to be heading back in that general direction. If that is what you were referring to as Mitt's economic plan, I can agree with that. I'm not sure that is his plan, but since his plan has so few details and appears to not align with his prior actions as Governor, I have no idea what his actual plan is.

While providing assistance for those in need is something that we should do, providing life long assistance that results in generational reliance on governmental assistance is a terrible idea. The New Deal of FDR didn't attempt, IMO, to provide long-term reliance on the government, it provided short-term assistance to survive and long-term to get people back in the workforce and ultimately self-sufficient. Our current assistance programs seem to be intended to keep people on assistance for life.




 
830boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 10:07
I guess the question you should ask is who where the Robber Barons before they where Robber Barons? You would be surprised to know that a good portion of them: Ford, Carnegie, Rockefeller,...came from relatively humble beginnings, they were not Ivy league graduates, sons of millionaires. I think there is definitely an arguement to be made that upward mobility was much easier at that time.

 
831boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 10:18
As illogical as next statement is going to sound think about it for a second. the ability to go from rags to riches is easier done in a society that is unfair. A system that is completely fair is extremely hard to game against and turn makes it difficult for best and brightest to shine through. Is this to say an unfair world is better, not at all.
 
834biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 10:19
Our current assistance programs seem to be intended to keep people on assistance for life.

Which programs are those?

I agree, that would be terrible, if true. We were starting to veer that way in the 90s when Clinton stepped in and put limits on many welfare programs.

Which remain?
 
835Seattle Zen
      ID: 3603123
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 11:10
Which programs are those?

Well, there is Social Security Disability. You have to be disabled and unable to work to qualify, but even if you are on SS disability, you can continue to work part time and still collect a diminished amount.

Paralyzed from the neck down, probably going be "on assistance for life". Perhaps Frick thinks this is a terrible idea, I don't know...
 
836Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 11:51
Unfortunately, Social Security disability is one of the most abused entitlements we have. There's an entire cottage industry dedicated to getting people monthly SS checks that are fully capable of working. You probably seen the ads on TV.

My ex sister-in-law, who has made a career taking advantage of every entitlement program known to man, finally hit the jackpot, convincing SS she was unable to work due to depression. She's collecting more each month at 43 for life than I will next year when I start taking early SS at a reduced rate at 62.

Obviously, someone paralyzed from the neck down qualifies. But depression? There's probably another cottage industry of doctors who work with the Binder and Binder advocates in diagnosing depression and other maladies that should be excluded as a disability.
 
837Boldwin
      ID: 40937423
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 13:43
Well then I qualify for SS disability if Obama is re-elected. So there's that.
 
838sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 13:46
and we all qualify, if you keep posting nonsense. :/
 
839DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 23:17
"Well then I qualify for SS disability if Obama is re-elected. So there's that.

He said paralyzed from the neck down, not the neck up.
 
840biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Mon, Oct 08, 2012, 17:34
What makes public sector workers think they shouldn't share the recession with the rest of us?

Because it destroys growth and delays the recovery.

Lord, God Reagan knew this, and he jammed in as many public sector jobs as he could.







 
841boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 11:59
interesting not sure when 2,940,000-2,860,000 started to equal 100,000. Or the fact that the net change since Reagan took office, according to the graph, was a loss of 20,000 federal employees. So the point of the graph was? To demonstrate bad math?
 
842Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 12:06
The point is that, until the pain caucus of the recent recession took hold, every administration, including Reagan took it as an obvious step to pulling out of a downturn to use defective spending to increase government employment to offset private sector losses, and moderate the depth and duration of the downturn. Until this latest "screw the economy so we can screw Obama" congress, this was regarded as a no-brainer.
 
843Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 12:20
Defective spending. F'in iPhone. ;)
 
844sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 12:35
must be a Republican phone bili. It wont let you say 'deficit'.
 
845Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 13:04
Chinese made. Chinese financed.
 
846boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 13:46
Bili, I understood the argument you where trying to make but your graph did not support your idea. And I agree to extent that letting go of federal employees at this time is probably not a good idea hiring more is probably not a good idea either.
 
847Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 14:06
How did it not support it? Why isn't it a good idea?
 
848boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 15:26
Because it shows a net decrease in the federal workforce not an increase, it also shows that during the actual recession they cut jobs. If you argument was that as the economy of returns to normal then the federal work force should return to original levels I would say this graph supports this. Maybe you should explain it to me because I am just not seeing at all what you are seeing, at least not at the federal level.

Its a bad idea because new hires represent long term commitments.
 
849Razor
      ID: 177192916
      Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 15:44
Remember that we are not in a recession now and haven't been for three years. We are in a period of slow economic growth. biliruben's charts show that net state and federal hiring was higher post-recession than it was at both the start and end of the recession. Contrast that with now when we are cutting government jobs post-recession.
 
850sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 16:30
shows a decrease??? Mid 1982 to mid 1984, shows an increase of 200,000 state and federal jobs.
 
851Frick
      ID: 2193319
      Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 16:59
It only shows an increase when you cherry pick specific dates. During his first term, the total actually decreases.
 
852sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 17:24
if you take his overall term, it increases significantly.

link

On January 21st, 1981, President Reagan started with 2,875,000 nonmilitary federal employees.

By the end of Reagan’s terms the total number of nonmilitary federal employees was 3,113,000. That is an INCREASE of 238,000
 
853Frick
      ID: 2193319
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 08:48
Which disagrees with the chart posted above. Although the chart above says all government employees, which I would assume includes military personnel. Something doesn't seem right there, didn't Reagan increase the size of the military. Or just military spending?
 
854Mith
      ID: 98342014
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 10:19
Geez. The graph shows non-military employees.

Bili's point is that in the throes of recession, Reagan knew that it was not a time to continue his vow to cut the size and reach of government.

According to the graph, the recession started in mid 1981. By the nature of what a recession is (contrary to some alternate definitions that some at this forum have invented for the term) we don't officially know that we're in a recession until more than 3 months after it started.

That's when increased public employee hiring started, which is obviously a process that takes a little bit longer than 2 minutes to see through.
 
855boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 11:43
Actually it doesn't show that either after they found out they where in recession 3 months in the federal government actually began to cut jobs, the increase did not start till about 7 months which if I had to guess corresponds to when GDP began to increase. All I get out of the graph is federal employment levels match delayed GDP growth.
 
856Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 12:00
I'm not certain about the graph and the interpretations, but I'll just inject that typically we don't know we are in a recession until we have been in it a few months. A recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of GDP shrinking. So we wouldn't know, in some cases, until we are months into a recession.
 
857Mith
      ID: 98342014
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 14:31
Boikin is apparently under the impression that federal employment should rise the same day a decision is made to hire more frederal workers.

He also doesn't seem to know the definition of the word recession if he is guessing that the rise in fed. employment occurred as GDP began to increase. The gray portion represents the recession.
 
858Boldwin
      ID: 589301022
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:10
Bili's point is that in the throes of recession, Reagan knew that it was not a time to continue his vow to cut the size and reach of government.

Reagan believed that if he spent what he needed to spend to stem the threat of communism, he would crowd out social engineering programs. There would be nothing left to spend on these boondoggles.

What he wasn't counting on was just how happily the other side, which controlled the purse-strings, namely Tip-O-Neil, was to deficit spend the USA into bankruptcy.
 
859sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:12
I call BS
 
860Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:22
I think Boldwin forgets that the budgets Reagan submitted largely are the ones passed. Including the deficit spending.

It is amazing to me that, what with the internet and all, the Right continues to mythologize about the facts of Reagan. It isn't like this stuff isn't provable.
 
861Boldwin
      ID: 589301022
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:35
I think Boldwin forgets that the budgets Reagan submitted largely are the ones passed.

OMG!

They practically invented the phrase 'Dead On Arrival' to describe a Reagan budget hitting Tip-O-Neil's desk.
 
862Boldwin
      ID: 589301022
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:36
The only thing you are proving, PD, is George Orwell.
 
863sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:40
Gotta hand it to you B, you are STILL 30 years later, proving why the press dubbed Reagan "The Teflon President".
 
864Boldwin
      ID: 589301022
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:40
Fun history flashback:
WASHINGTON — The budget office, aware that President Reagan's 1987 budget was being called "dead on arrival" by critics, used an ambulance handled by attendants dressed in hospital greens to deliver copies.

Reporters lined up in light drizzle outside the Government Printing Office at 7:30 a.m., waiting for the first copies, stepped back when they heard a siren.

With the ambulance's lights flashing, two attendants raced to its rear, opened the door and removed--strapped to a gurney--an employee of the White House Office of Management and Budget.

They carried the supine Paul Olkhovsky past the crush of cameras, up the steps and to the second floor, where attendants placed a budget copy on his chest.

Olkhovsky pronounced it alive and kicking.

Asked whose idea the skit was, OMB spokesman Ed Dale said: "We just thought it up here" as a "little joke."
It's not like you can't look this stuff up for youeself, PD.
 
865Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:48
I'm sorry--was there a part of that where you looked at the actual budget? No? Your point was that he was going to end "social engineering programs"--which would be reflected in his own budget priorities, yes?
 
866Boldwin
      ID: 589301022
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 16:40
Just ask Tip-O-Neil and Daily Kos.
Ronald Reagan and the radical Republicans elected in 1980 implemented a policy Tip O'Neill labeled "Starve the Beast". For those who are unfamiliar with the plan, the plan was to run up huge deficits and government debt until the crises was so bad they could dismantle all the progressive gains that were made over decades by slashing spending in the name of deficit reduction.
 
867boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 12:47
Re 857: Mith stop trying to rejustify that graph, and yes Ill admit i misspoke what I meant to say was rate of change in federal employment matches the delayed rate of change in GDP, you got me there. Your point maybe valid but that graph is not showing it and even if it did a 2.5% increase in the federal work force maybe within the natural ebb of flow of federal employment rates not a jamming of jobs as you put it.
 
868Mith
      ID: 98342014
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 14:59
not a jamming of jobs as you put it

Exactly when did I put it like that?

What I said was, that in the throes of recession, Reagan knew that it was not a time to continue his vow to cut the size and reach of government.

I'd offer more thoughts on the issue but since my last post Boldwin changed the topic to unrelated nonsense about Reagan policy from 5 years after the recession we're discussing and Boikin completely changed the point I made.
 
869Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 16:42
MITH

When are you going to stop blaming Reagan for Tip-O-Neil?
 
870Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 16:55
At no time was Reagan EVER in favor of growing the size of government and anyone who knew him is fully aware of that. Reagan was NOT a Keynsian.

Reagan took Hayek's side vs Keynes every time. You are just repeating a recent Paul Krugman lie.

Reagan and Hayek knew perfectly well that the road to serfdom was paved by John Maynard Keynes.
When does respect for an economic theory become fanaticism? For an answer, check out Paul Krugman's increasingly desperate attempts to defend Keynesian economics against its obvious failures.

The New York Times columnist doesn't claim publicly to be a religious man, but he sure acts like it when it comes to his beloved John Maynard Keynes. Anything that detracts from Keynes' demand-side, big government, deficit-fueled stimulus gospel is verboten. And any evidence that Keynesianism doesn't work must be wiped away, even if it means conjuring up mythical numbers to do so.

Case in point is Krugman's latest campaign to argue that, despite an $830 billion stimulus and trillion-dollar-plus annual deficits, President Obama has been an austerity-driven tightwad. At the same time, Krugman says President Reagan — whose supply-side, free-market economic policies powered a huge recovery after the 1981-82 recession — was a closet Keynesian.

"If you actually look at the actual track record of government spending (and) government employment," Krugman said this weekend, "Reagan is the Keynesian and Obama ... has been the anti-Keynesian."

Well, let's check the actual record.

Real spending at the end of Reagan's first term was up 9.7% compared with the year before he took office. Under Obama, that figure will be above 16%, according to the White House Office of Management and Budget.

While spending did top out 23.5% of GDP in 1983, Reagan cut it to 22% the next year, and still lower after that. Under Obama, spending shot up to 25% of GDP in 2009, and it's stayed at or above 24% since.

Deficits in Reagan's two terms never exceeded 6% of GDP. Under Obama, they've never been under 8%.
mp3Subscribe to the IBD Editorials Podcast

Nor is it true that Reagan added government jobs while Obama cut them. The federal workforce shrank more than 40,000 in Reagan's first term. Obama has boosted federal jobs by 142,000, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

The only way Krugman can claim otherwise is to lump in postal workers and state and local employees into his calculations. Trouble is, the U.S. Postal Service operates independently and has to cover its own costs — which is why it's been cutting jobs since 1999.

And presidents have no control over state and local employment, except insofar as their economic policies produce growth to support those jobs — which Reagan's did and Obama's didn't. But apparently it's better to bend the facts than adjust one's faith.
Ronald Reagan and William F. Buckley did more than anyone else I can think of to promote Hayek, the author of 'The Road To Serfdom' who was the very anti-thesis of Keynes.
 
871Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 17:07
“We can lecture our children about extravagance until we run out of voice and breath. Or we can cure their extravagance by simply reducing their allowance.” - Ronaldus Maximus

Reagan changed the center of American politics and moved the national debate from 'How fast should we grow government' to 'How much or how little to cut Federal programs'.
 
872Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 17:13
And ever since, liberals haven't been able to get elected unless they hid their liberalism and pretended to assume the mantle of Reagan.

This is not our first rodeo. We know the drill. You aren't fooling anyone but yourselves.
 
873Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 17:16
according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics

Now you believe the BLS?

Government employment has gone down since Obama took office. In fact, we're down more than 560,000 government jobs since the end official of the recession (June 2009). Those people, of course, had to find jobs elsewhere and still the unemployment rate is essentially unchanged since Obama took office.

The top chart on page 15 of this BLS highlights page shows the trends.
 
874sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 18:10
take B's word for it, r a Nobel winning economists opinion? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Reagan was a Keynesian

hey love, in particular, to contrast President Obama’s record with that of Ronald Reagan, who, by this point in his presidency, was indeed presiding over a strong economic recovery. You might think that the more relevant comparison is with George W. Bush, who, at this stage of his administration, was — unlike Mr. Obama — still presiding over a large loss in private-sector jobs. And, as I’ll explain shortly, the economic slump Reagan faced was ... much easier to deal with than our current depression. Still, the Reagan-Obama comparison is revealing... So let’s look at that comparison, shall we?

For the truth is that ... Reagan, not Obama, was the big spender....
 
875Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 18:56
Now you know why Krugman's name elicits derisive laughter whenever his name comes up among republicans.

He wouldn't have a political incentive to lie about this, ya think?

Really, libs who believe Reagan believed in big government and Obama is the tightwad need to get a grip on reality. No matter who tells them it is so.
 
876sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 19:07
Tell me B...what was the budget deficit, for Bush's last year?

Now, what is the projected budget deficit for the last year of Obamas 1st term?

 
877Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 19:16
Ask me about a conservative president.
 
878sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 19:18
I asked you, what GWBs final annual deficit was, and what Obamas final year 1st term deficit is projected to be.
 
879sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 19:26
I'll make it easy for you...

Bush tripled the annual deficit, from 1/2 trillion to 1.8 trillion.

Obama has slashed it to 1.2 trillion.

Now, how does a reduction in the annual deficit of 1/3, constitute "run away" spending?

link
 
880Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 19:28
From those wonderful people who lecture us about sustainability.

 
881sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 19:40
Then, you are denying that his reducing the annual deficit by 1/3 of what it was when he took office, is worth a tinkers damn?
 
882DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 19:49
Man, that Reagan guy sure jacked it up too. From 28 to 40%, that's a pretty significant increase. And Bush helped up it even further.

Then Clinton came along and boom, knocked it down by the same percentage that Reagan knocked it up.

Then Other Bush came along and made things even worse AND managed to screw up the economy in the process.

30 years of history don't lie. But Republicans claiming fiscal responsibility sure do.

(in before "Reagan didn't do that", despite him just using a graph that says he did -- or blaming it all on the Democrats in Congress, while simultaneously denying that maybe it's the current Republicans in Congress screwing it up.)
 
883sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 20:12
To be clear also, the run up in debt vs GDP, isnt just because the debt went up, but because of the recession, the GDP went down. And growth coming OUT of the recession, has been slower and tougher, than anyone had projected.
 
884Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 20:20
#880: Why are you using such an old chart?
 
885Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 20:32
Clinton got to spend Reagan's peace dividend and the republican house of representatives prevented him from redirecting it.
 
886Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 21:21
Looking at data newer than 3+ years old changes the outlook a little, which is obviously terrible news for anyone cheering on an American decline.

 
887Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 21:50
Don't worry--Romney plans to "work with Congress" to figure out how to pay for his tax cuts. Even though if you take out virtually all deductions you still won't get anywhere near the revenue he would need to make the math work.

Meanwhile, of course, he'd have to cut all sorts of services in his effort to reach this mythic figure: unemployment, job training, etc. Because in Mitt's world, all you need to get ahead in life is a low tax rate.
 
888Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 21:50
I'll believe the CBO's numbers when Obama is no longer involved with their calculations.
 
889Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 21:53
says the man who posted outdated CBO numbers just 8 posts previously...
 
890DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 23:23
I'm more convinced than ever, given that spectacular roundabout, that it's all an intentional troll job at this point.
 
891Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 10:52
 
892Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 12:33
Heh. Best comic strip series ever, IMO.
 
893sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 12:40
Agreed PD. It was absolutely brilliantly done.
 
894Tree
      ID: 39191313
      Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 14:23
It was absolutely brilliantly done.

so brilliant, in fact, some people don't even understand it. well, i mean, unless the implication is that their own line of thinking syncs up with that of a 6-year-old.
 
895sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 14:43
re 875 Now you know why Krugman's name elicits derisive laughter whenever his name comes up among republicans.

I rather duobt this woman has a clue why she is laughing
 
896Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 17:10
 
897sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 17:12
So B...hows business?
 
898Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 17:23
Censored.
 
899Boldwin
      ID: 409351215
      Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 17:25
 
900Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 00:02
Union fines members $250 if they don't go to Fauxchahontas rally.

 
901Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 02:01
Reminds me of the miners being forced to go to, and be filmed, at the Romney rally.
 
902Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 03:54
Coal miners send message to Obama demanding he stop telling that lie.



Coal miners at the American Energy Corp. Century Mine said they want President Barack Obama to stop what they term “the war on coal” – and to stop spreading “mistruths” about them.

Miners gathered Friday afternoon to express their opposition to Obama’s energy and environmental policies, which they believe threaten their jobs. Miner Mitch Miracle read aloud a letter the miners mailed to Obama that outlines some of their concerns.

The miners said Obama’s campaign team is running ads filled with “blatantly false” statements about the miners regarding their participation in Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney’s August campaign stop at the Century Mine. These ads assert that the miners were forced to attend the event by the mine’s owner, Robert Murray.

“There are numerous false statements and absolute lies concerning our participation in this event, mostly started by a local ‘shock jock’ radio host,” the miners’ letter to Obama states. “Why would you (Obama) lie about the 500 working miners who have signed this letter? We, the employees of the Century Mine would request you immediately stop these false ads.”

This summer, Murray Energy Corp., parent company of the Beallsville mine, cut or relocated 56 workers with the closure of the Red Bird West mine near Brilliant. Murray also cut 29 mining jobs from The Ohio Valley Coal Co.’s Powhatan No. 6 Mine. All of this was done, Robert Murray said, because of Obama’s “war on coal.”

Murray then hosted the Romney campaign stop in Beallsville in August, during which many miners appeared behind Romney as the former Massachusetts governor spoke about the need to protect coal mining jobs. In response to the assertion some have made about the miners being forced to appear with Romney, the miners made several points on Friday. - Wheeling Intelligencer
 
903biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 08:53
What lie? They closed the plant and management said attendance without pay was mandatory. Management has admitted as much. Which lie are you referring to?
 
904Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 09:25
...attendance without pay was mandatory. Management has admitted as much

That lie right there.

Here are Robert Murray's comments

The coal miners came out and denied it.

Show me where Murray says that.
 
905biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 09:33
From what I recall, Murray didn't say it. His managers did.
 
906biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 09:41
A group of employees who feared they'd be fired if they didn't attend the campaign rally in Beallsville, Ohio, complained about it to WWVA radio station talk show host David Blomquist. Blomquist discussed their beefs on the air Monday with Murray Energy Chief Financial Officer Rob Moore.

Moore told Blomquist that managers "communicated to our workforce that the attendance at the Romney event was mandatory, but no one was forced to attend." He said the company did not penalize no-shows.

Because the company's mine had to be shut down for "safety and security" reasons during Romney's visit, Moore confirmed workers were not paid that day. He said miners also lose pay when weather or power outages shut down the mine, and noted that federal election law doesn't let companies pay workers to attend political events.


Plaindealer (sorry, having trouble creating link.
http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2012/08/coal_miners_lost_pay_when_mitt.html#incart_river_default

The audio of the radio interview with Murray's CFO "repeating the lie" is in there.
 
907Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 09:56
Nowhere in that piece or any piece discussed, has any worker been threatened with or had his pay cut in retribution for not attending.
 
908Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 09:58
Which let's not forget is a standard liberal union tactic.
 
909biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 09:59
Right. Mandatory attendance but no "explicit" retribution stated.

Explain again what lie you are talking about?
 
910Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 10:33
'We expect you all will want to attend' offends you(?) but is not the same thing as 'you will be fined $250 by the union if you don't show up' which is fine by you.

It is a lie to say they were forced to attend the Romney event.

An event in defense of their coal jobs in the face of Obama's war on coal. Which they naturally all wanted to support.
 
911biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 10:36
What is the difference between telling them attendance is mandatory and being forced?

If my boss says something is mandatory, I fully expect that losing my job is possibility if I choose to ignore that something.

So sure, they weren't handcuffed and dragged to the event. Of course not.
 
912Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 11:14
Besides which, there won't be any coal jobs anywhere if Obama gets enuff of his program thru. Somehow that threat to their job is fine by you.
 
913sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 12:02
Miss a mandatory meeting at work, and tel me how safe your job is, in an environment of 8% unemployment.

They were "forced" to attend the rally, and in all likelihood, are being "forced" to now deny what they have already stated.
 
914Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 12:12
#910: You must be mis-remembering. The miners attendance was both mandatory and unpaid.
 
915biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 12:19
Uh, and that has to do with our discussion of "lies" how?

Focus, man.

We can discuss the validity of your further paranoia another time.
 
916Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 13:09
If there is a shocker in PA it will be over coal. I would love to see this be the miscalculation that saves the USA from more Obamanations.
 
917Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 13:11
And talk about paranoia, believing they were threatened with their jobs if they didn't go on stage and deny they had been threatened with their jobs...wow.
 
918biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 13:12
I'll take that vast change of subject as a complete and total admission that your accusation of lies was complete and total bunk.
 
919Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 13:15
BTW when Obama minions come to drag me off to voluntary mandatory labor and there is no penalty for not going, fagedaboudit. If there was no penalty there was no mandatory.
 
920sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 13:25
the problem B, with your theory in 919...is that they went to the Romney campaign rally. They went w/o pay and they went and said they were told it was mandatory.

Now, we can take their original statement, or we can take one of the various allegations made by our resident partisan hack.

hmmmmmmm, lets all ponder this for a moment.
 
921Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 13:38
Their company is losing jobs and going broke because of Obama and we need to wonder about their motivation?
 
922sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 13:44
Did you ever think, maybe the coal industry is being supplanted by more modern elements? Sort of like the horse and buggy industry, or the Pony Express, or the stagecoach manufacturing industry? Or that maybe, the species would someday tire of poisoning the very air we breathe? Just sayin...
 
923Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 14:13
Did you ever think that alternative energy might be a bit wet around the collar? So green it isn't even ready for harvest yet?

How many Solyndra's before that fact penetrates your brain?
 
924biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 14:13
Just say, "I was completely wrong slandering PD claiming he was lying. I apologize".

Then we can move on to your next craziness.
 
925Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 14:16
Hell no. You can believe the shock jock and I'll believe the miners themselves.
 
926sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 14:36
You'll believe the miners after they recant what they said the first time. The first statement obviously NOT being made under duress, while the 2nd? Thats an as yet open question.
 
927sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 14:42
How many Solyndra's before that fact penetrates your brain?

link

He continued that line of attack Wednesday night, decrying what he described as "$90 billion in breaks to the green energy world."
"These businesses, many of them have gone out of business -- I think about half of them -- of the ones that have been invested in have gone out of business," the former Massachusetts governor said.


well, to answer your question? A lot more than 4 out of 23.

In fact, of the 28 funded projects -- involving 23 companies -- listed in a 2012 congressional report, only four involve businesses that were either sold or are not in operation.
 
928Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 14:50
When this tech is ready I'll be hot to get on board.
 
929Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 14:51
And I'll know about it before you do.
 
930sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 14:52
if we dont incentivize/fund it, it may never be ready
 
931Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 15:20
BTW I am sure those who don't believe the miners own words...do believe team obama when they tell us they are deliberately keeping down rally sizes to save on logistic and security costs. Too funny.



When you can't generate support like this you have to invent excuses.
 
932Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 15:24
I'll believe the CFO. He is the only one speaking truth against his interests. Now if you have any ethics, apologize.
 
933Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 16:16
The coal industry will suffer the same fate as Osama bin Laden under new climate regulations proposed by the Environmental Protection Agency, the head of the United Mine Workers of America said this week.

“The Navy SEALs shot Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan and Lisa Jackson shot us in Washington,” Cecil Roberts, president of the powerful union, said during an interview Tuesday on the West Virginia radio show MetroNews Talkline.

Roberts blasted Jackson, the EPA administrator, over the proposed regulations, which would limit greenhouse gas emissions from new power plants. Opponents of the regulations, including Roberts, say the new rules would be the death knell of the coal industry.
Yeah, why would coal miners oppose Obama? Unthinkable! No way they'd willingly show up at a Romney campaign stop.
 
934Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 16:18
If you want me to admit that they were bribed to show up there, Obama is making it WELL worth their time.
 
935Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 16:19
No way they'd willingly show up at a Romney campaign stop

And yet they were not given the choice. Or did you miss the part where they were docked a day's pay and told going to the even was mandatory?

What a stupid way to treat people who might be your natural supporters.
 
936Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 16:22
What a stupid way to treat people who might be your natural supporters.


And yet Obama kills the coal industry anyway.
 
937Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 16:46
Here is the actual radio interview of the CFO where he denies miners were forced to attend.
 
938sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 16:54
the original radio broadcast
 
939Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 17:11
Sarge

Had you actually clicked on the blue words in #937 you would have realized there was no reason to repost it.
 
940sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 17:24
I dont click many of your links B they have a habit of not opening in a new window, but rather of absconding with the one rotoguru is in. So I seldom click on your links.

Besides which, in that radio interview, the miners are emailing the radio show, and telling them that they ARE being made to attend, w/o pay

You lose.
 
941Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 17:57
#936: Why would you think coal miners would be Obama's natural supporters?
 
942DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 18:04
“Our managers communicated to our workforce that the attendance at the Romney event was mandatory, but no one was forced to attend



You keep using that word
 
943Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 18:08
What's eating coal country?
 
944sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 18:22
from PDs link;

West Virginia (like most of the rest of Appalachia) is older, whiter, less educated, more religious and more rural than most of America—attributes that correlate with voting Republican.

What that doesnt explain, this does:

Mike Teets, the only Republican on the Hardy County Commission, denies that race has anything to do with local antipathy towards Mr Obama. But he is concerned that the president may be a Muslim, secretly in cahoots with Osama bin Laden, whose killing he could have faked. He also wonders whether the president might be gay.
 
945Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 18:23
#943 The United Mine Workers of America rarely sit an election out.
 
946Boldwin
      ID: 119531322
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 18:25
#944 There is a boatload about Obama I haven't told you.
 
947Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 18:29
#945: And yet they declined to endorse Obama. It doesn't surprise me that the right doesn't have a very clear focus on what drives unions.
 
950sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 17:56
Scott Walkers weak job performance

Over the last three months, Wisconsin has lost 11,500 jobs and the Walker jobs deficit (the difference between where we are and where Wisconsin would be if growth had happened at the national rate) is 17,300.


 
951wolfer
      ID: 2810241021
      Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 22:24
A couple of things from the election...


Two Democratic Senators lost their seats, so the Senate is back in Republican hands at the SAME NUMBER as it was pre-recall.

Also of Wisconsin's 72 counties....

Number of counties that went for Walker and Obama - 23

Number of counties that went for Walker and Baldwin - 24

 
952Boldwin
      ID: 542463020
      Mon, Mar 31, 2014, 00:35
What liberals do.
 
953Seattle Zen
      ID: 25531211
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 18:16
Prosecutors allege Gov. Scott Walker was at the center of an effort to illegally coordinate fundraising among conservative groups to help his campaign and those of Republican state senators fend off recall elections during 2011 and '12, according to documents unsealed Thursday.

Things are getting interesting again in Wisconsin. Christie in NJ, Walker in Wisc., which Rep. governor with 2016 aspirations will be the next to garner prosecutorial attention?
Prosecutors allege Johnson and Jordahl acted as a "hub" to coordinate activities among Walker's campaign and a host of conservative groups to help Walker and other Republicans in the recall elections. Those recalls were sparked by the GOP move in 2011 to sharply limit collective bargaining for most public employees.

Outside groups are allowed to work together on campaign activity, but there are limits on their ability to work with candidates. Generally, they are supposed to remain independent and not allowed to strategize with candidates.

The Wisconsin Club for Growth maintains that prohibition does not apply to them and other conservative groups because they did not run ads explicitly telling people how to vote. Their efforts praised Walker and criticized his Democratic opponent, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, but escaped regulation because they did not use the phrases "vote for" and vote against," they argue.

The prosecutors dispute the club's arguments, saying the work by outside groups amount to illegal campaign contributions. If groups can in effect give candidates unlimited sums from corporate entities, Wisconsin will turn into a free for all, they contend.

Prosecutors contend the Wisconsin Club for Growth doled out money to other groups to help Walker or other Republicans — nearly $3.5 million to the Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce, the state's largest business lobby, and $4.6 million to Citizens for a Strong America.

The Club for Growth has sued seeking to block the prosecution. I think their argument is that armed law enforcement execution of search warrants is reserved for poor people of color in the US and that there are no campaign laws anymore..."
 
954Seattle Zen
      ID: 25531211
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 18:17


Nice little summary from the WA Post
 
956Boldwin
      ID: 525232018
      Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 19:26
Media malfeasance

Both State and Federal courts have already long ago thrown this case out as meritless and yet the liberal media around the country are misleading readers into thinking these are new relevant charges by their dishonest use of verb tense.

Famous Obama voting liberal lawyer and leading blogger Ann Althouse explains the outrageous media abuse and why they always keep her from taking her natural place on their side. Their outrageous behavior.
Looking around at some local Madison sites and at some less-local lefty sites, I see a scary love of prosecutorial aggression and overreach. The slavering enthusiasm is so off-putting, so much at odds with the liberal values I believe in, that I feel pushed away onto the side of conservatives with whom I have little reason to affiliate.
Instapundit's take: WISCONSIN’S “DEEP STATE” hasn’t given up on Scott Walker. This is just a spoiling attack to try to keep him out of action for 2016.
 
957Boldwin
      ID: 525232018
      Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 19:31
And the people pretending outrage, are the same people who are happy to have an IRS that harasses and impedes one party's political campaigns for the benefit of the other at the request and coordination of Dem congressmen and senators and WH.
 
958Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 20:56
That would have been a good point had you excluded at the request and coordination of Dem congressmen and senators and WH, a claim of which you have no proof.
 
959Boldwin
      ID: 525232018
      Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 21:14
Proof
 
960Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 21:49
From the Townhall article:

information shows the IRS and Cummings' staff asked for nearly identical information from True the Vote President Catherine Engelbrecht about her organization, indicating coordination and improper sharing of confidential taxpayer information.

That's certainly damning, if not concrete proof. The claim is that at the request and coordination of Dem congressmen and senators and WH.

Just because the attorney for True the Vote claims:

"Lois Lerner and the top brass at the IRS came to see its role as somehow the enforcement arm of the Democratic Party and Democratic members of Congress and the White House and they began to carry out these activities to pursue conservative groups because these politicians were demanding it......When these Democratic politicians said, 'Go do something about these conservative groups because they're challenging us and we don't like what they're saying about us,' the IRS took it upon itself to do their bidding to try and silence these groups"

she's not only speculating, she's actually making up quotes from unnamed Democratic politicians.

Now, it's not a stretch to believe her speculations and suspicions are true, but, from what can be gleaned from the article, only Congressman Cummings(actually his staff, but that's enough) is indicated as coordinating and sharing confidential information. There may be more evidence, and a special prosecutor should be appointed independent of Holder. But that article provides no proof of multiple congressmen, any senators, or the White House being involved with the IRS calamity.
 
961Boldwin
      ID: 525232018
      Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 22:49
The number two Internal Revenue Service official was in direct contact with Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) about scrutinizing tea party and conservative groups throughout the 2012 election, according to documents made available Wednesday.
 
962Boldwin
      ID: 525232018
      Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 23:00
As recently as last year, seven Democratic Senators sent a letter to the IRS “urging them to similarly investigate these outside political organizations.” According to a press release from one signer of the letter, Senator Schumer, the letter “was signed by Senators Charles E. Schumer, Michael Bennet, Sheldon Whitehouse, Jeff Merkley, Tom Udall, Jeanne Shaheen and Al Franken. It follows an earlier letter, sent to the IRS by the same of group of senators last month, that also urged the IRS to better enforce rules pertaining to 501(c)4 organizations.”

In a different New York Times article in 2012, this struggle between Democrats pressuring the IRS and Republicans concerned about constitutional rights is noted. The article mentions that the IRS sent “dozens of detailed questionnaires to Tea Party organizations applying for nonprofit tax status, demanding to know their political leanings and activities.” The article goes on to point to political motivations on the part of Democrats.

“Democrats, whose 501(c)(4)s have been outraised significantly by their Republican counterparts, have been pressing the I.R.S. for a response on the tax questions.” The Senate Democrats’ lesson seems to be when that your organizations can’t raise as much money as your opponents’ equivalent organizations, you take illegal action.
 
963Boldwin
      ID: 525232018
      Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 23:14
WH involvement. Just follow the trail of crashed computers and WH visits.

BTW, really? You guys think it's even possible to accept as innocent the story, "Oops, my computer crashed...oops, also I melted my hard drive down so you can't retrieve the info."?
 
964Boldwin
      ID: 525232018
      Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 23:22
BTW, those 7 senators in #962 are brazenly engaged in promoting partisan IRS harassment several years after they were caught and called on it. They have no shame, no fear of repercussions, supremely confident the MSM will cover their a&&es, no intention of following the guide of ethics or the law.
 
965Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 10:06
You guys think it's even possible to accept as innocent

Is that how you interpret my statement from #960?

a special prosecutor should be appointed independent of Holder

Are you talking to some other 'you guys,' or are you just talking to yourself?
 
966Boldwin
      ID: 145312114
      Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 15:33
How many liberals will say it and back it up with actions?
 
967wolfer
      ID: 44824920
      Sun, Sep 21, 2014, 17:29
They are at it again...............................


There is a state law in Wisconsin that says that the party who got the most votes in the previous election gets to be listed first in the next election. In 2010, the republicans got the most votes and all was happy. In 2012, the democrats got the most votes.