Forum: pol
Page 3535
Subject: Shutdown/Impass


  Posted by: Boldwin - [4030710] Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 18:44

What gets shutdown in a government shutdown. Who gets paid and for how long.
 
1Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 18:45
Interesting, thanks.

That quote by Gates was a genuine LOL.
 
2Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 18:48
This was a link from the same place: Union sues administration for shutdown contingency plans.
 
3Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Apr 07, 2011, 19:07
Spring break next week, with the possibility of Utah's national parks and monuments closing will cost the state millions in lost tourism dollars.
 
4Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 08:59
Don't most national parks have an admission fee? Is that fee not sufficient to keep the parks operating?

Regardless, it is going to be a blow to the economy on many levels, and will just result extra money being spent to backpay everyone for staying home.
 
5Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 09:23
All national parks have admission fees, as well as national monuments, and along with skiing and outdoor recreation(climbing, hiking, camping, snowmobiling), are a major source of the overall state 7 billion dollar tourism industry.

While most of the ski resorts are within 30 minutes of downtown Salt Lake, the national parks and monuments are mostly clustered in Southern Utah, and many rural towns depend on these tourist dollars for survival, like retailers at Christmas.
 
6Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 12:21
Question from the gallery - Who will be blamed for the impending shutdown by the vast majority of the American public?



Answer - That would be me.

Question - And who's head will the few remaining yahoos who proudly call themselves members of the Tea Party going to be calling for on a platter when he agrees to a reasonable compromise on the budget that does not contain ridiculous, hyper-partisan anti-abortion nonsense.

Answer - That also will be me.

Question - So, since you are going to be enraging the yahoos eventually, why not avoid earning the wrath of the vast majority of the American public and avoid the shutdown?

Answer - Because I'm John Boehner and I am doomed to do stupid, shortsighted crap. If it doesn't involve a golf ball, I will screw it up.

Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, offered a scathing criticism of Mr. Boehner and House Republicans, accusing them of wanting to shut down the federal government by insisting on cutting funds for women’s heath services.
Officials said that Democrats had made concessions on both money and policy, and had moved toward the position of House Speaker John A. Boehner of Ohio on the overall level of spending, agreeing to $37 billion in cuts, with less of it coming from the Pentagon than Democrats had initially sought.

Democratic officials familiar with the negotiations said that proposed restrictions on money for Planned Parenthood remained the chief sticking point, and that attempts to resolve the disagreement through alternatives like allowing a separate floor vote on the issue had not been successful. Democrats said they were told by the Republicans that the votes of anti-abortion social conservatives would be needed to move any budget measure through the House.
 
7weykool
      ID: 7348811
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 12:57
37 billion was all the Dems are willing to cut?
What a F-ing joke.
 
8Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 13:01
You're right, weykool, it is a joke. $37 billion, $60 billion - all the numbers being bandied about are a pittance relative to the yearly budget deficit, yet they are quibbling over it like it's going to make or break the country. The time has come to pass a budget. Next FY is the time to worry about passing a more aggressive budget focused on reducing spending, including defense and entitlement spending.
 
9Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 13:03
That's not true, weykool. The Dems are more than willing to cut more from the defense budget, the Republicans don't want those cuts. The joke is on them.
 
10Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 13:10
Not only that, but another GOP rider would prevent money going to overseas organizations which receive money from other countries for abortion services (US funds are already prohibited from being used for abortions).

Apparently the GOP plan includes the cost of ten million new post hole diggers, so we can all put our heads in the dirt about sex ed.
 
11Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 13:13
#7: Since the GOP and the Dems were in agreement on this amount, you might as well say it was the Republicans as well.

And remember, the GOP ran on the platform of cutting $100 billion. And here they are willing to cut only $37 billion, so long as Dems give them Planned Parenthood as well.
 
12weykool
      ID: 7348811
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 14:59
Its only 37 billion because the Dems wont budge and would rather shutdown the government and then play the blame game for the budget that they were supposed to pass last year when they controlled both houses and the the WH.
Complete shirking of their responsibilities.

Defense is only 22% of the budget while transfer of wealth programs are more than 60%.
Cutting from the 22% of the budget when we are fighting 3 wars would be something only a moron would propose. Nuff said.
 
13Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 15:09
Whatever the number is, the GOP agreed to it.

transfer of wealth programs are more than 60%

I'm not at all certain where you are getting this number. Here is a page with some numbers and a nifty pie chart from a site which is hardly friendly to the Democrats. Here's a nifty interactive chart. Click on "hide mandatory spending" and see what you have to work with.
 
14Boldwin
      ID: 22311814
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 15:12
There was never any chance of avoiding a shutdown.

Dems a dying to have one. The MSM's handling of the last one rescued Clinton after his midterm election debacle.

In fact they are staging a shutdown over a single issue, funding abortion mills, in the budget they refused to pass when they held both chambers of congress.

This has the further benefit to them of making every last cut, even the hundreds of millions of dollars in cuts to medicare they themselves included in Obamacare...tied to the Republicans.

This has the further benefit to them of setting the precedent for the current 2011 budget.

------

So anytime you see a democrat pouting and pretending to be horrified by the prospect of a government shutdown just remember you are looking at a bold faced liar who has been gleefully rubbing his hands over this prospect ever since they dodged the 2010 budget vote last year before the midterms.
 
15walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 15:13
Plus, I'd like to see us get out of two of those wars (Iraq and Afghanistan). Just leave (which we won't), and that's save some money. Are we there for moral responsibility? Oil? Fear of nukes falling into terrorist hands (then we are there forever, mind you)? or cos of the military industrialized complex (and the $ they make from it)? I wonder...it's not money well spent, IMO.
 
16bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 15:32
Re 12 - what are you including in the 60% figure you cite?
 
17Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 15:44
So, Baldwin, you would agree that the Republicans are not very bright since they are falling into this obvious trap?
 
18Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 16:00
This budget period started on 10/1/10. Why was a budget not passed last year? The D's controlled all three votes needed. I'm sure it was somehow the R's fault, but enlighten me.

$1.5 trillion / 365 days = $4.1 billion per day deficit increase. A week is $29 billion. What are they arguing over, $30 billion in cuts over the next six months.

 
19biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 16:27
The dems themselves are now so conservative, they are buying into deficit reduction with unemployment still near 9%.

Millions of lives being ruined, and the two sides are arguing over to fuk 'em even harder.

Dems: let's screw the economy and the unemployed a bit more.

Reps: you arent screwing them hard enuf!! And plus lets make sure the rich get richer!

I'm disgusted by the heartless idiocy.
 
20walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 16:46
cha-ching, bili! Dems are scared of the repubs, and the repubs do not care about anyone other than the rich and corporations. It's a sham(e). Spending and tax cuts will not revitalize the economy, and similar efforts recently undertaken in Europe (England) have not fared well.

Krugman, Voodoo Math
 
21Boldwin
      ID: 22311814
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 17:07
So, Baldwin, you would agree that the Republicans are not very bright since they are falling into this obvious trap? - SZ

They only have 2 options. Bend over and grab their ankles and allow the country to slide closer to the bankruptcy abyss or...

...face down the MSM and hope that the public is more serious about saving the country than last shutdown. Considering the heat of the Tea Party, I don't see how option two isn't their best bet. The MSM is going to have a harder time pretending we don't need those spending cuts.
 
22walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 17:22
Except the country is not going bankrupt. That's just not the case.
 
23Boldwin
      ID: 22311814
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 17:28
It's already bankrupt when you count the unfunded liabilities in the future.

We are just on the life-support of our enemies and competitors loaning us more money to dig ourselves deeper.
 
24DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 17:29
Maybe we could figure out what the next $77 billion military boondoggle or five are. That would be a good start.

And if it isn't obvious, both sides of Congress are very very responsible for this mess.
 
25Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 20:15
Just watched where Harry Reid said to the GOP that he'd cut even more money from the budget if Boehner took Planned Parenthood off the table. JB said no.

Like Wisconsin, it isn't about the money anymore.

Eli Lehrer takes a close look at the riders which, if this were a real budget rather than a budget negotiation, would be called "earmarks."
 
26Boldwin
      ID: 1135295
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 06:52
Unlike death camps for babies, we actually need the military.
 
27Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 09:04
death camps for babies

Echoes of Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) telling the C-Span cameras and gathered attendees that abortion was "well over 90 percent of what Planned Parenthood does."

When pressed to provide statistical evidence of such a claim, his office responded,

"his remark was not intended to be a factual statement"

link
 
28biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 09:41
Planned Parenthood health centers focus on prevention: 83 percent of our clients receive services to prevent unintended pregnancy.

Planned Parenthood services help prevent more than 612,000 unintended pregnancies each year.

Planned Parenthood provides nearly one million Pap tests and more than 830,000 breast exams each year, critical services in detecting cancer.

Planned Parenthood provides nearly four million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV.

Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services.

Planned Parenthood affiliates provide educational programs to nearly 1.2 million young people and adults each year.


Planned parenthood is the only resource for a huge population of young and poor to get essential services, without which, you would see a lot more morbidity, unintended pregnancies and death.

They do an exceptional amount of good.
 
29Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 10:08
Well, the final deal makes the Planned Parenthood defunding question one that will come up as a stand-alone question in the next session. Good--let's see where those people stand on it without it hiding it a rider.

The best (worst?) part of this was the press meeting by GOP women (in response to a Dem women press conference). The GOP women were clearly uncomfortable being there and would not answer a single question about PP or abortion at all. It was like the GOP decided to get rid of the NAACP and hustled together a bunch of their black members for a press conference, who had unexplained surprise at finding all the other guys on the stage to be black.
 
30Boldwin
      ID: 1135295
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 15:07
Actually those numbers are cooked, bili.

For example Planned Parenthood doesn't do a single mamogram, but rather refers them to public and private sector resources that do.

Furthermore those percentages are cooked. When PP does an abortion and it takes 15 visits, PP counts them all as one. When counseling for other issues they count them as 15 separate events.
 
31Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 15:16
Thanks to Senator Kyl, it's rather clear exactly who cooks the books, at least for the Congressional record.
 
32Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 15:42
For example Planned Parenthood doesn't do a single mamogram, but rather refers them to public and private sector resources that do.

Furthermore those percentages are cooked. When PP does an abortion and it takes 15 visits, PP counts them all as one. When counseling for other issues they count them as 15 separate events.


can you provide a source, or is it fair to presume "(t)his remark was not intended to be a factual statement"?
 
33Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 16:28
Heh.

So what if they "cook the books"? Say they are up to 12%, as Abby Johnson claims. They are still the only thing keeping the abortion rate from being higher, particularly among rural and poor areas of the country.

As for the mammogram claim: Pants on fire.
 
34Canadian Hack
      ID: 457241711
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 17:03
As Baldwin and this budget process show us, its not about the budget at all. The debt and deficit are not the main issue. The whole thing was almost held up onj the funding of one agency that makes up less than 0.01% of the federal budget in Planned Parenthood.

This is a culture war that is attempted to be hidden in as budgetary concerns. The reality is the budget is worse off if poor women have reduced access to birth control and more children are born into poverty and need governmental support.

If Baldwin cared at all about the budget he would be opposed to tax cuts for the rich while we are running a deficit. But thats not his issue. His issue is abortion and he doesn't care if it makes the budget worse in the longterm.

The bottom line to all of this is that Baldwin and his ilk are not having enough sex and they are damn opposed to anyone else who is. Sex has to come with bad consequences. And they have the nerve to pretend they care about the budget.
 
35Boldwin
      ID: 1135295
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 17:50
We could just as easily throw that right back attcha.

Planned Parenthood takes those tax dollars and gives them back to the Democratic party so we could just as well say Dems won't ok any cuts at all to protect their siphoning tax payments corruptly diverted to their own campaign funds.

And if you wanna link it to sex lives, maybe you think pro-lifers should be taxed to pay for very expensive [expensive in cash and moral terms] post-conception birth control to facilitate your out of control sexual appetite.
 
36Boldwin
      ID: 1135295
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 17:51
And you are willing to shut down the government and saddle girls with a lifetime of guilt just for your shameless selfish pleasure.
 
37Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 18:00
Planned Parenthood takes those tax dollars and gives them back to the Democratic party

Another remark not intended to be a factual statement.
 
38Boldwin
      ID: 1135295
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 19:08
My tax dollars hard at work electing Democrats.
 
39Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 19:16
Where does it say the PP Pac uses taxpayer money?
 
40Boldwin
      ID: 1135295
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 19:20
Defund PP and we'll be sure.
 
41Boldwin
      ID: 1135295
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 19:26
Really? You think it matters which pockets they put it in? All I care about is my tax dollars go in and Democrats and dead babies come out.
 
42Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 19:38
Also, when you say "my tax dollars," just how much of that tax dollar do you think is being used by PP?

Total receipts for the PAC 2010 were $454,642. Of that, $264,986 came from private individual donors. That leaves $189,956. Only individual donations over $200 are reported. I could find no data as to amounts donated by groups or organizations. Just for fun, let's say $150,000 of taxpayer money went to the PP PAC(Even though there's no evidence a dime of taxpayer money went to the PAC). Given how you cry that Democrats have made you poor, you probably pay no federal income tax at all, but if you do, given the percentage of the federal budget that goes to PP, your contribution is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of a quarter, dollar tops.

 
43Canadian Hack
      ID: 457241711
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 20:04
Its time for the Baldwin dodge, weave, lie and misdirect.

Shutting down the government had it happened is about the budget. He doesn't care about the budget. He cares about sticking his nose in other's sex lives.

Planned Parenthood is a negligible part of the budget. A rounding error is bigger than the amount of Federal money they get.

Notice the way he tries to transfer his own guilt. His line We could just as easily throw that right back attcha. admits to that tactic. Except that doesn't even come up with a substancial argument at all.

The averted shutdown was about the budget. Or it should have been. Instead Baldwin and his ilk made it about big government intrusion stucking their nose in the bedrooms of the nation. The grown ups understand thats not a budgetary issue. Too bad the Tea Party are not acting like grown ups.
 
44Boldwin
      ID: 1135295
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 20:10
That is just one PAC. Each regional affiliate contributes. There are numerous 501c's it has set up to work the political scene with tax-free donations. They return more to Democrats than they take in from taxes.
 
45Canadian Hack
      ID: 457241711
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 20:16
Do you have a link for that from an unbiased source? Or is it just another "fact" pulled out of your ass?
 
46Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 20:16
This is about punishing perceived political enemies. It always has been.
 
47Mith
      ID: 22141616
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 20:18
Actually PV, your numbers are off. The private donor money is $311,632, leaving $153,010 in remaining receipts. Actually the private donor money was much higher than $133k; as noted only donations of $200 and up are included. I'd be surprised if the remaining receipts are more than $100k. Your guess

The $264,986 you cited is the amount they contributed to political candidates.

So for whatever it's worth (noting Boldwin's pocket pinball) the receipts from private donors coming in (whatever the number actually is) is at least 20% greater than than the political contributions going out.
 
48Mith
      ID: 22141616
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 20:20
Err second sentence should be:

Actually the private donor money was much higher than $311k; as noted only donations of $200 and up are included.
 
49Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 20:45
Sorry about my math. My teenage daughter got her cervical shot and birth control advice from Planned Parenthood. They were hardly nefarious. Planned Parenthood is a lot more cost effective way to deal with these health issues than CHIPs or Medidaid. PD is 100% correct in stating

This is about punishing perceived political enemies.

Of course PP is going to contribute to Democrats. Why would they they donate to a party committed to their demise?

 
50sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Sat, Apr 09, 2011, 21:18
Amazing isnt it?

The political right, uses the free speech protected BY the ACLU, to decry the ACLU.

The political right, decries teenage pregnancy and abortion, and wants to defund the one organization which does more than any other single non-parental entity; to PREVENT teenage pregnancy and reduce the probable nr of abortions.

The freshman Rep House members, want the EPA to be prohibited from enforcing the Clean air Act.

And then people like WK come in here and screech about the Dems?
 
51Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Sun, Apr 10, 2011, 03:20
didn't think Baldwin would be able to provide a source for his information posted in #30
 
52walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 09:29
This probably is not the optimal place for this post, but my quick perusal could not find a thread about budget deficits, etc. The NYT regular has policy experts debate certain topical poli discussions. Today's concerns whether tax hikes (in this case, expiration of Bush tax cuts for those making more than $250k) are acceptable. The 8 debaters span dem and repub sides, and also represent different areas of expertise (economists, communications, political science, policy, etc.).

Interesting stuff:

NYT, Room for Debate: Will Voters Accept Tax Increases?

I think there are lines drawn in the sand here where Obama is saying to reduce the deficit, we need both reduced spending and increased revenues. Republicans are saying it's all about spending. Although I would have to pay more taxes if Obama's approach were the one adopted (although I don't think it'll happen), I am more in favor of his plan vs. Ryan's plan. Reagan raised taxes, and contrary to claims, tax increases have not slowed economic growth or employment (and tax cuts have not led to increased employment).

Thoughts about efficacy of letting the Bush era tax cuts expire? Is this something the Dems can support without getting hurt by voters? Are the republicans shirking their fiscal responsibilities by ignoring revenues as a partial means to balancing the budget? Are the Dems not pushing revenues hard enough?
 
53Boldwin
      ID: 323371315
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 12:37
No, push real hard for tax increases in the middle of a depression. You'll be loved in 2012. Really.
 
54DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:01
Could just push for tax increases when we're doing well, to cover for the bad times -- would that have helped?

Your basic economic theory seems to be:

Economy doing well = lower taxes for the rich, we don't need the money!
Economy doing badly = lower taxes for the rich, we need them to have more money to get the economy going so we can lower their taxes more!

Forgive me if I'm skeptical.
 
55Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:01
No, push real hard for tax increases in the middle of a depression... ...Really.

it worked for one of your heroes. so much so, he did it 11 times, including the biggest tax increase during peace time.

 
56Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:14
You're right, DW. The GOP doesn't really have a tax policy these days. Their proposed solution to all of the economy's and government's ills is to cut taxes, no matter the situation. That's why they cannot be taken seriously in this debate.

I would also argue that those on the left who are against entitlement reform when we have a yearly deficit of $1.5 trillion are equally irrelevant in this debate.

We need tax reform. We need entitlement reform. We need spending cuts. The solution to this is more on the spending side than on the tax side, but clearly both sides must be affected. The corporate tax code is particularly in need of revision. I hope Obama ignores the howls from both sides (though they will be loudest from the Right) and makes the tough decisions to ensure continued growth in the economy while steering us away from long term financial disaster.
 
57Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:19
#53: If you are serious about reducing the deficit, we need to increase revenues. So don't play coy about the deficit mattering to you if suddenly you believe the economy to be too fragile to actually handle deficit reduction when the question of the expiration of the unsustainable Bush tax cuts arises.
 
58biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:28
Crank up the taxes on the rich to 90%. Maybe they'll leave for Lithuania (is that still a country?) and stop running our companies into bankruptcy so we have to bail them out with billions of tax-payer dollars.

Also, let's start taxing every fickin' financial transaction. I gotta pay, so should the rich pricks on Wall Street. Call the bill "No Breaks For the Hucksters".

 
59Boldwin
      ID: 323371315
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:28
Let's get serious.

No matter how they tune their speech, Obama, Reid and Pelosi think government is still too small.

Obama, Reid and Pelosi think business and especially successful business is the enemy.

Tax revenue from a healthy growing economy is the only way out. Not draining every last drop of blood from the golden goose.

Ergo it isn't ever gonna get better till Dems are out of power. If it ever does get better.
 
60sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:32
Dems dont need to yield a damn thing on the debt extension to the reps. They HAVE to raise the debt limit. No way around it. Fail, and govt debt becomes worthless...bonds, t-bills, savings bonds, etc etc etc. Junk bonds all of it.

No increase to the debt ceiling, and the great depression gonna look like economic good times by comparison.

Ergo, it MUST be raised. Voting no on it, simply is not an option.
 
61biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:34
If Tea Partiers had all three houses, they would certainly raise the debt limit. Ergo, there ain't no hostage here.

Don't negotiate and give up anything valuable when both parties would do the exact same thing.
 
62Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:38
there is never anything serious in much of anything you post, because it ignores reality, it ignores history, it ignores fact, and it is all about "get the Dems out, they're here to ruin America."

you are too afraid to meet direct challenges on this board. post 30 went unanswered, post 55 will get ignored. instead, you'll change the subject, or more than likely, insult me in the name of your God.
 
63DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:53
I can only assume that post 59 was not intended to be a factual statement.
 
64Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 13:57
They should have raised the debt ceiling to $100 trillion when few people were paying attention.
 
65Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 18:42
#56 covers my POV pretty damn well.
 
66Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 23:52
After all that negotiation, the budget bill barely passes the House after massive GOP defections--59 GOP members voted no, meaning Boehner needed Democratic votes to pass it.

Many GOP members defected over news that only a few hundred million dollars of the $38 billion in deficit reduction will happen right away. While it looked like a great deal for the GOP when first passed (particularly in light of the Ryan budget proposal, and Obama's dithering on a response), things have looked worse and worse for then since.

Word is that the Dems are happy to have the GOP go on the record with an up-or-down vote on the Ryan budget. Probably not a good thing for the many freshman GOP members to have to go home and explain why they only trimmed $350 million from the budget and they tried but were unable to pass a spending bill which got rid of the very popular Medicare.
 
67Boldwin
      ID: 54316150
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 01:32
Sure, we could go on and on (and on) with statistics and talk of the 19% Solution, discuss the nature of growth and the affect of tax increases on small business, outline the size of the tax burden shouldered by the top 1% of the earners, show how the poorest of this nation would be the ones most greatly affected by a increase in the tax rates of the wealthy, blah, blah, blah.


But, likely you are here because the people who care about you realize that reasonable, cogent information has stopped leaking into your head since sometime in the early 60s.



Do you believe you and all your rich friends have extra money that should be going to the government to help pay down the debt?


Yes?


Wonderful!!


Then....STFU and pay
 
68DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 09:35
Golly, imagine that. The same people that created the debt by getting discounts over the last decade on the bills they'd paid for hundreds of years, being asked to pay what they'd always paid.

Herp derp.
 
69walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 10:08
Ah the same Heritage foundation that said back in 2001 that Bush's tax cuts would result in no debt by 2010 and trillions of dollars in savings.

Heritage Foundation
 
70Boldwin
      ID: 35355159
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 10:55
1) Who knew Bush would spend like a drunken sailor democrat?

2) So who did predict 2008 in 2001?
 
72Boldwin
      ID: 35355159
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 11:15
DWetz

You and I are not having a conversation.
 
75Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 12:56
Bush stated the budget would be balanced in 2001--his first major budget address, in fact.

Meanwhile, the GOP seems to forget that not only did they say themselves that "deficits don't matter" but they followed through on that mantra--spending like crazy at the same time they decided to choke off revenues from those people best able to pay more. Deficits ballooned--no surprise.

Truth is, deficits explode under Republican administrations. The enablers of the GOP continue to be stuck in the 1960's. Here in the real world of 2011 the wealthy are even more wealthy than before, the services for the poor are being cut, and the GOP continues to flail around for a coherent economic policy, all the while demonizing the Democrats as though their own lack of ideas is a result of the existence of Democrats.
 
76walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 14:01
#75, word. It is a bit disingenuous to now run around saying the Dems are irresponsible, and deficits must be cut, and it's ALL and ONLY about spending, when the republicans are the one's that created the huge deficit we have. Obama added to it, but he had to, to avoid a depression. We need to cut spending and increase revenues, and we also need to do it in a way that does not muck up the economic rebound. It's not a silver bullet fix.
 
78R9
      ID: 2854239
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 15:45
I must say, hearing these two American parties and their respective supporters try to argue over who creates more deficits is rather ridiculous. Democrats create huge deficits with very liberal social spending plans. Republicans create huge deficits with very promiscuous foreign policies, either via war or propping up foreign governments/groups for decades on end. (These are generalizations of course, and there are exceptions on both sides, but this holds true more then both sides would probably like to admit.)

Dems then moan about the Reps spending trillions on their oversees wars and 'friends', while offering only token reductions in out-of-control social spending. Reps moan about Dems huge social spending, then get in office and spend trillions on foreign wars, and cut taxes, instead of trying to generate revenue to afford them.

I have yet to see any serious effort from either party to reduce their own obvious excesses. Dems barely acknowledge the ridiculous overpsending on social programs, Reps barely acknowledge the ridiculous overspending on places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, half of Africa's governments, etc. and scoff at anything that might bring in some more revenue like small tax increases.

And how can they? Reps aren't going to get votes from their conservative base by raising taxes and staying away from their strengths in the international power game. Dems aren't going to get votes from their liberal base by drastically cutting spending on favorite social programs. The system seems broken. Solutions are impossible to implement, because losing the next vote gets all your implementations reversed anyway, so winning the next election becomes more important than actually changing anything.

Here we have a leader who was going to usher in serious change and a Tea Party movement that was going to usher in serious change and we get a budget that barely cuts spending in anything and doesn't bring in any new revenue. So dissapointing, and I'm not even American. ;) But many countries are facing issues similar to this, and America usually leads the way by example (for better or worse) and I was hoping for much, much more.

I guess one year isn't all that long a time when facing such a long-term problem, but when are both sides going to get serious about solving their own silly issues? 350 million off of social spending is a joke, when one considers that tens of billions is still barely a drop in the bucket.
Constantly berating any thought of a small tax increase is a joke, when one considers that even a fairly large tax increase would barely bring in enough revenue to help cover a small decrease in a 1.5 trillion deficit. Its not like a 1% increase in some rich guy's taxes is going to cause him to close his business or stop growing it or stop spending on rich people things. Gimme a break. There are logical scales to diminishing returns in tax increases vs. economic growth creating more tax revenue on its own, and for some reason the Reps have tossed all logic away when discussing this topic.

This post will probably sound really whiny and/or bitchy, but I've been following alot of countries' fiscal situations for a while now, and its just really frustrating to see nobody make any progress on this front at all. I guess we're all just going to go broke together. ;) Hopefully the global soup kitchen has room for us all. :)
 
79Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 16:07
I was *just* coming here to post exactly this, word for word, but R9 beat me to it!!

Ok, maybe not word for word. But very well put.
 
80biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 16:37
Interesting POV, r9.

I don't see the equivalence at this period in history, however.

Social program spending, with the exception of Medicare and Medicaid, is a teenie tiny fraction of overall spending in our budget. The health care law does what it can to shrink m and m, but unless we lose our humanity and choose to subject our elderly and disabled to hideous end-of-life outcomes, is far better than any alternative other than Canada or England style health care.

The republicans, on the other hand, are seeking to give another 2.9 trillion to the ultra-wealthy at a time of historic economic crisis, right after those ranks of super rich completely decimated the world economy with the greed, incompetence and complete lack of moral compass. Evaporating 13 trillion on wealth from the bank accounts largely of the middle class.

There is no equivalence here.
 
81walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 16:39
bilibilibilibili, right on brother.
 
82Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 16:50
The health care law does what it can to shrink m and m, but unless we lose our humanity and choose to subject our elderly and disabled to hideous end-of-life outcomes

This just illustrates the exact problem R9 is talking about. Rather than dealing with real bottom line facts, the first response is resorting to heart-tugging scare tactics. Right off the bat there's references to giving up our humanity and horrible treatment for elderly if we so as much as touch public assistance programs.


The other side hasn't come in yet to defend bush tax cuts or spending on the wars or give similar emotional testimony about preserving the sacrifice of our soldiers who have already died (w/out any thought to those soldiers who yet live). Not all of t hose points may be supported on these boards, but they are common points raised by the right to justify continued presence in wars we shouldn't be in.

I really think R9 hit the nail on the head the first response, in my eyes, is a perfect illustration of exactly what I got from R9's post.

The root of the problem isn't even the spending whether its on other countries wars or our own country's out of control, over-bloated social problems. The root of the problem is the system and the people in it. Until that is fixed, truly fixed, not just talked about like the tea-party is doing, none of these issues will go away.

I also would not mind a tax increase with 1 major caveat - the feds show us they can be more responsible with their spending. When that happens and if we are still at a deficit, I wouldn't mind putting a bit more in. But until that happens, the feds have no business asking for more from anybody whether rich or poor.

Fix the system that makes the laws, the wars and the programs. Then fix the involvement in wars, the social programs and tax code. Then look to the constituents to ask for more if necessary.
 
83R9
      ID: 2854239
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 17:19
A few points:

- It would be helpful to know how the overall spending budget is divied up. Its hard to say where $ should be saved when I (and probably alot of others) don't really know factually how $ is alotted.
But, in general, cutting $ means hurting someone. In the 90's when Canada balanced its budget, healthcare and education took very serious hits, as did the military. Yes, people probably died because healthcare wasn't funded at the same level it used to be. Yes, that sucks. But yes, governments deal in saving/spending lives everyday, and it is a requirement to sometimes spend lives for the greater good.
Simply taxing rich people more, or cutting military spending isn't going to be enough. Every area is probably going to have to give, and every area is probably going to have to give up alot. That probably means on some level that US healthcare will have to "lose a bit of its humanity".

- What is a left-leaning (or your) solution to bringing the 1.5 trillion deficit down to 0. Mostly wondering if someone leaning more towards the left then the right has posted or written an article with a clear proposal, so we can pick it appart and comment on how/why it sucks. ;) (But also why it would be good.)

- On Medicare/Medicaid:
The real problem in the US isn't the cost of those programs, but the cost of hospital care and drugs in general, something that has been disgustingly escalated by the insurance industry. I fault the Dems and Obama (I love the term Obamacare) for bringing in legislation that doesn't solve a single core problem of the US healthcare issue. They threw money at the problem, and it will help those who need it of course. Its a very humanitarian thing to do. It just won't solve anything long-term, which will create very serious problems down the line for people in need, which is a very unhumanitarian thing to do.

Throwing money at an issue is a problem in general with alot of US social spending. Changing the system of program X is too much effort (or is just impossible politically) so more money is heaped on top of something very, very broken. I'm not really sure if that is worse then losing your humanity, but it is still pretty awful, since it further burdens people who haven't even been born yet.

I guess the scope of the problem hasn't hit most people yet. But in trying to imagine where the US will be in 20-30 years, I just look at places like Greece and Portugal, who won't be in a position to do anything meaningful socially for decades to come. The writing on the wall for both countries was there long ago, and none of their governments had the political will to do anything to change their obviously broken systems.
 
84Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 17:40
The problem with "cutting healthcare" is not that people will die (the system here is not the same as the Canadian system). It is that the recent health care law is, in fact, the very money-saving action which helps bring down healthcare costs for the government.

It is like having a sweeping review of the military budget and enacting a huge number of reforms to save money, then having the other party gain office on the premise that they will do away with the reforms to "save money."

The cost of drugs are a separate matter, and should be addressed. Bush's push with regard to prescription drug coverage was a huge unfunded mandate on Medicare Part D recipients, and added billions to the debt. We have to re-examine a lot of Medicare, but the drug costs are the first area I would tackle.

I also would not mind a tax increase with 1 major caveat

Well, maybe. But the tax increase will, by necessity, go toward covering the money we borrowed by cutting the wealthy's taxes too much previously. Until we get the budget in balance, the expiration of the Bush tax cuts (for instance) will have to pay down the deficit, which is money already spent.
 
85Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 17:57
Oh how we forget our history! These very arguments has been made from 1992-1994. The Republicans were decrying the massive budget deficit, not a word from them in the prior twelve years of Republican deficit budgets. There had been deficits in every budget for decades at that point and every rapid Republican screamed about our crushing debt. No one believed we were going to avoid the looming disaster... until we started running budget surpluses just a few years latter. Clinton raised the top tax rates, the economy shot through the roof and what about all that scary debt crisis?

I disagree with R9, you are wrong to scare everyone with this "the scope of the problem hasn't hit most people yet." You don't have the foggiest idea what lays ahead, no one does. We are just as likely headed towards Greek/Portuguese debt disaster as we are towards a trade surplus with China, world's largest debt holder and budget surplus all due to X, Y, and Z which no one could have known just three years ago.

Throwing money at an issue is a problem in general with alot of US social spending.

Is that really the "problem" with the entitlement programs? We are just "throwing money" at retirees? We are just throwing money at their medical bills? Actually, I think tired cliches are the problem when discussing government spending.

The federal government, state governments, private business and America in general have one enormous problem that, unlike budget deficits which are impossible to predict, is threatening our economy and future and that is the cost of health care. We devote FAR FAR too much of our GDP to the health industry. Biliruben has for years explaining that this portion of our economy does not do well in a free market system. Price controls are absolutely required to give us the possibility of slaying this dragon.

If any of you live in rural areas, this fact is all too apparent. What facility in your area has the highest paying wages, the nicest physical plant, the best, most secure jobs? It's the local hospital, of course. There are exceptions, of course, but you will see it again and again, rural people don't have a ton of money, but they get sick and injured and therefore need medical care, which is paid for at exorbitant rates, which affords the employees their high salaries, the expensive doctor's offices, on down the line. I'm tired of hearing of the number of people who are going to school to become some sort of nurse because those jobs are the only ones who pay more than $15/hour.

In short, Social Security is not the problem. Medicare itself, the idea of the federal government paying the medical bills of seniors, is not the problem, education spending, our woefully underfunding regulation scheme, these are not problems. Health care, that's THE problem. Some people want to tackle THE problem. Republicans do not. Do not pretend that each side has its own flaws, they are far from equal.
 
86weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 18:44
R9 The first link of post 13 will give you an idea where all the money is being spent.
Roughly 60% between SS/Pensions, Medicare, education, and welfare.
23% towards defense which includes foreign aid.

Defense spending as a % of the federal budget:
1960 - 55%
1970 - 48%
1980 - 28%
1990 - 27%
2000 - 20%
2010 - 24%

The ploy is always to "tax the rich".
In 1988 the top marginal tax rate was 28%
It has been raised since then several times first to 31% then to 38%.
The Bush tax cuts lowered the top rate from 39% to 35% and the lowest brackets from 15% to 10%.
FACT: The top 5% of incomes in the United States pay 50% of all income taxes.
If you are rich you are already paying "your fair share" by a factor of 10 fold.

The problem has nothing to do with the government needing more money...they have far too much already.
The problem is 100% on the spending side.
Trying to figure out new and inventive ways to raise more taxes is nothing more than shuffling the chairs in the deck of the Titanic.

In 1980 government was spending 600 billion while revenues were 500 billion.
Today the spending has gone up by a factor 6 (3.6 trillion) and tax revenues and gone up by a factor of 4.
Really? we cant balance a budget when we are taking in quadurple what we did a mere 30 years before?

Im sure at this point we will get a bunch of usless graphs that try to spin these numbers using inflation adjusted, as a % of GDP or some other crapola spin method.

As for all this garbage about Obamacare cutting costs....complete rubbish.
Once fully implemented we will be spending more and getting less.

 
87Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 19:10
If you are rich you are already paying "your fair share" by a factor of 10 fold.

This raises the question, I think. What do you think the "fair share" is for the rich?

Suppose the top 400 earners in the United States made about 1/2 of 1% of the total income in the United State in the early 90s. Suppose that amount triples since then (which it has--the top 400 earners in the US make nearly 1.5% of income in the US). What should they be paying in federal income tax? According to the tone in your #86, it sounds like they should be paying less in taxes, despite making a lot more of the nations income.

This is a problem of income distribution, not tax rates.
 
88Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 19:21
Defense spending as a % of the federal budget

Is the budget too big, or not? If the latter, then using a percentage of a ballooning budget isn't going to make the point you think it is, particularly since we know that the defense department grew 9% annually from 2000-2009.

[Note: This amount does not include the cost of the VA, Homeland Security, non-DOD military functions, or the cost of paying off borrowing for previous wars.]

I think conservatives are going to have to decide if the deficit is worth tackling or not. And if it is, to stop the nonsense of thinking it can be tackled strictly by spending with defense and tax increases off the table.
 
89biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 19:23
You can't just ignore inflation. Not kool.

You also cant ignore the tax rate on investment income, which was slashed in the 90s. That where the rich get the majority of their income, from investments. Also, not kool.

I know you want this to be simple. Tough. It ain't.
 
90weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 19:26
This is a problem of income distribution, not tax rates.
I agree.
As a conservative I want to see as many rich people as possible.
When the government taxes away your money you cant reinvest that money to improve your own situation.
And once you "make it" it is criminal to think the government will take up to 50% of the spoils and give it to people who have been locked into govenment handouts.

As for what I think is a "fair share"...once the government gets past 20% of your income they have gone too far.
I also have a problem with the vast majority of people paying less than their fair share.
The bottom 50% of incomes pay roughly 5% of the income taxes.
This class warfare has to stop...we are not Russia or china.
If we are going to raise someone's taxes 10% then we need to raise everyone's taxes 10%.
 
91weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 19:44
Is the budget too big, or not? If the latter, then using a percentage of a ballooning budget isn't going to make the point you think it is, particularly since we know that the defense department grew 9% annually from 2000-2009.

You are correct.
It was not my intention to give the impression that we are spending less on defense.
Only that as a percentage of the budget it is getting smaller.
However, if defense is getting smaller as a percentage of the federal budget then by definition social spend has to be increasing as a percentage of the budget.
So that means social spending is increasing even faster than the balloning federal budget.

I have no problem in looking at making reductions in defense spending...but I do have a problem when its always the first place the Dems turn to.
Keep in in proproprtion to the budget.
24% defense ve 60% social spending.
I would be on board with $2.40 of defense cuts for every $6.00 of social spening cuts.

 
92R9
      ID: 2854239
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 20:31
84: The problem with "cutting healthcare" is not that people will die
I mean indirectly of course. Less money for any health program could mean less drugs for someone who needs it, or less examinations of at-risk groups for people who need them, etc. This would be true in any country.

It is that the recent health care law is, in fact, the very money-saving action which helps bring down healthcare costs for the government.
I know. Its just that it was about 1% of the change that was actually needed, and to people who know this, its less then even a token gesture. Hence the dissapointment. And if that is the best the US political system can muster...

It is like having a sweeping review of the military budget and enacting a huge number of reforms to save money, then having the other party gain office on the premise that they will do away with the reforms to "save money."
I know. It is a huge flaw in Western democracy, and its happening right now in Canada's silly election too. The party that (when in power) signed on 10 years ago to buy us new fighter jets is now slamming the party in power for... completing the contract to buy the new fighter jets. Both sides of the political aisle do it, in many countries, and it just plain sucks.


85: Do not pretend that each side has its own flaws, they are far from equal.
All problems are of course not created equal, and not all sides have equal amounts of problems. But yes, both sides have flaws. Obviously to you, the side you lean towards is going to have less flaws in your view. Why would you choose to support a side you think is more flawed? :)

Is that really the "problem" with the entitlement programs? We are just "throwing money" at retirees? We are just throwing money at their medical bills? Actually, I think tired cliches are the problem when discussing government spending.
In short, yes. You go on to describe perfectly what I'm talking about. Governments spending money on the people is not the problem. Governments injecting MORE money to help MORE people into a program/system that is horribly flawed and needs a complete overhaul/change of thinking is the problem. That is what I was alluding to. Adding more money to a flawed system is obviously far, far easier politically then trying to change a flawed system, especially when so many people are actually living off of that flawed system. That is a cycle that only gets worse as time goes on, until someone/thing finally steps in and stops it. Usually at a far higher price than if changes had been made much earlier.

I had high hopes Obama would try/be able to change it with healthcare/the insurance industry. I was (mostly) wrong. I 'hoped' (ok, I knew it was a longshot) the Tea Party would try to change it. So far, laughable. It doesn't seem like the political will is there to make legit change happen in those sectors.

Health care, that's THE problem.
In mho a real problem is tons of people thinking different problems are THE problem. Ask someone else and they might say horribly under-regulated Wall Street is the problem. (This one is on my list.) Others would say its the military-industrial coplex controlling everything. And so on.

I'll add to it. ;) IMO, the REAL problem, is societies in general for some reason denying the power of human instinct. Humans are greedy, selfish, survivalist jerks some of the time, and if laws and regulation do not exist (or are powerless) to prevent it, it will inevitably happen in any system that allows it to. We are not ALWAYS greedy selfish jerks. We are sometimes quite sympathetic, thoughtful, caring, etc. But if nothing stops us from getting away with the bad ones when we get the urge to, it will happen. And for it to happen in a critical program/system can have disastrous consequences.

I can only cite examples I'm keenly aware of, and that means Canada. Canada does not have a financial sector that crippled the country's economy out of greed. And it is not because we have more morally sound, ethical bank executives (snicker). Given the opportunity, Canadian financial institution leaders would do their best to sink us all into oblivion too, if it lined their pockets just a tad more. We just happen to have the most regulated banking sector in the world. We don't let them wipe their ***es without consulting five oversight committees. We've also seriously regulated drug costs, and/or the economic derivatives that drive drug costs, and thus don't have ridiculously inflated drug costs.

This is what I think the US (and the world) needs (alot) more of. Government regulation. Not actually running the programs themselves. Just watching the private sector that does run something like a friggin hawk. And, if neccessary, watching the watchers like bigger hawks. The SEC is toothless. The insurance industry has hands in every senator I can think of, and almost free reign on a critical sector. Ultimately, poor oversight and regulation will lead to the problems you alluded to in Healthcare, problems other allude to in the finance and military sectors, etc.

I disagree with R9, you are wrong to scare everyone with this "the scope of the problem hasn't hit most people yet." You don't have the foggiest idea what lays ahead, no one does. We are just as likely headed towards Greek/Portuguese debt disaster as we are towards a trade surplus with China, world's largest debt holder and budget surplus all due to X, Y, and Z which no one could have known just three years ago.
Yes, I AM scared a bit. Economies are affected by decisions made years and years in the past. To change things 20 years from now, you need to start now. And unfortunately, it is difficult for humans to perceive distant, future danger that our 5 senses cannot immediately perceive. Problems with the economy and the environment are the two most obvious examples. We're failing pretty badly on the latter, and nothing in our approach to the problem suggests much success with the former either. By the time enough people with the political will perceive the economic danger in this instance, it will probably be too late.

Your comment just makes me worry more. How many people (SMART people too!), I wonder, think the problem has a good chance of being fixed through its own mechanisms? Your example of the US circa 92-94 does not inspire me with confidence. Much of the problems then were glossed over much the way they are being now. They solved some short-term (short-term in economic terms, ~20 years) problems and put them off until later. Well, its later. And it looks like we're putting it off until later again.

I tend to avoid getting worked up over much of the political wrangling and ethical debates that come up, because as much as it can be interesting at times, neither do I think much of it holds serious long-term importance. But I DO get worried when I see partisan politics infusing itself in critically important long-term issues.
 
93DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 20:38
You should post more. (Please. Seriously.)
 
94Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 21:06
then by definition social spend has to be increasing as a percentage of the budget.

I see your point.

The fastest growing portions of the budget are debt servicing (by far) and military spending.

I'm not at all certain what you mean by "social spending." Can you give some examples? Social Security isn't social spending (at least, not definitionally).
 
95Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 21:11
10 years ago I shuddered at the thought of any government regulation. I felt the government should just stay out of business and let businesses and businessmen run business.

I'll admit now that I'm wrong. There are certain industries that simply NEED regulation. Healthcare providers, health insurance (and yes my own home/auto insurance industry), the financial sector/banks/wall street, industrial (from a manufacturing perspective) just to name a few.

However, we do not need the government participating in these sectors. We need them to moderate and regulate these sectors
 
96Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 21:22
Rather than dealing with real bottom line facts, the first response is resorting to heart-tugging scare tactics. Right off the bat there's references to giving up our humanity and horrible treatment for elderly if we so as much as touch public assistance programs.

What you've described is exactly what Sarah Palin(and Boldwin)did with the "Kill Granny" campaign. This was done for partisan reasons only, as a discussion of how many billions should we spend to keep the critically ill elderly alive for a few more days or weeks at taxpayer expense is a legitimate conversation when discussing the Medicare budget. We already know that a 30, 40, 50 or 60 year old with no insurance who gets sick is SOL, but a 90 year old should be allowed to suck the coffers dry because....because it makes Obama look bad.

Don't tell me you care about Granny when you're willing to smugly sit by and watch Granny die if she's not yet turned 65.


 
97Boldwin
      ID: 35355159
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 23:39
Refreshing to see a liberal honest enuff to admit 'killing granny' is part of their plan.
 
98DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 23:46
Unrefreshing to see there's a conservative rude enough to relentlessly continue to lie.
 
99DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 23:50
I guess it IS a more economically feasible plan to make sure the poor are sick enough to die before they can have any grandchildren though, AND it solves that whole Social Security problem we're having by having too damn many old people.

We'd do even better if we just murdered all those undesirables before they managed to breed, though.
 
100sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 01:14
from post 90:

The bottom 50% of incomes pay roughly 5% of the income taxes/

Thats because basic, housing, food, non designer clothes; consume the VAST majority of this brackets take home pay. The 'disposable' income, simply isnt there to be found.

OTH, those making 30, 40, 100k + per MONTH, can readily live and live very, very well...while paying more in taxes monthly; than many in that lower 50% gross annually.
 
101Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 01:16
However, we do not need the government participating in these sectors. We need them to moderate and regulate these sectors

Mostly true. Note that one organization that has been delivered quality health care while keeping costs under control is the government-run VA medical system. One has to wonder if that system is scalable.
 
102Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 02:10
#100: They also pay a much, much higher percentage of their income in taxes.

The GOP is up in arms that the Dems are looking to end the small break the wealthy got under Bush, and raise the top rate a few percentage points (apparently borrowing to pay for the wealthy's tax breaks are OK, but borrowing to pay for social programs for the unemployed are not. Go figure).

So for the wealthy, they will pay a small percentage more for the amount of money they make in the top income (that is, every dollar made over $379,150 gets taxed a couple of percentage points higher). Big whoop.

The truth is that about 3/4 of all taxpayers pay more in payroll taxes than income taxes. Combined with sales taxes, state and local taxes, and so on, and the less wealthy pay a much, much higher percentage of their income to taxes than the wealthy do. Even when some of those people end up paying no income tax because of EITC or other reasons.
 
103Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 08:36
Refreshing to see a liberal honest enuff to admit 'killing granny' is part of their plan.

Their plan? The Ryan budget could just as easily be called a "Kill Granny" plan, so, in your haste to demonize me as a liberal, you've actually taken up with Nancy Pelosi.

Democrats countered with official estimates showing the GOP plan would provide vouchers whose value would steadily erode.

"The Republican proposal breaks the promise that our country has made to our seniors — that after a lifetime of work they will be able to depend on Medicare to protect them in retirement," said Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi of California. "The Republicans' plan forces seniors to buy their insurance from health insurance companies where the average senior will be forced to pay twice as much for half the benefit."


Let's be serious. You're not concerned with budget deficits. You're concerned with partisanship. You're fully committed to attack politics. I don't care about Republican/Democrat; Liberal/Conservative. I'm all for a conservative like Mitt Romney, who was bold enough to address the health care issue as a governor, and is level-headed enough to realize that the only way to solve the problems this country faces is to rationally discuss ideas. You see that as a liability. As long as compromise is considered a dirty word in our nation's politics, the chances of moving forward in a positive direction becomes less and less realistic.



 
104Tree
      ID: 16329157
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 09:48
We already know that a 30, 40, 50 or 60 year old with no insurance who gets sick is SOL...

it's been a scary couple of years, not having insurance for much of the last 30 months.
 
105Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 10:36
Dems almost fool GOP House into passing a budget that was so radical they wanted the Dems to defeat it for them.

Good stuff.
 
106Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 13:41
OTH, those making 30, 40, 100k + per MONTH, can readily live and live very, very well...while paying more in taxes monthly; than many in that lower 50% gross annually.

But why should there be a separate tax bracket with a higher rate for those people? If the tax rate is 10%, then somebody making 100k a year is already paying more in taxes than somebody making 20k a year.

Add in more disposable income to spend on stuff like eating out, clothes, toys, cars etc and even more of that 100k is being spent on taxes proportionally.

So why should the person making 100k suddenly get hit with 15% in taxes?
 
107Razor
      ID: 172252412
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 14:33
They don't suddenly get hit with a higher tax rate. Tax thresholds are marginal.
 
108Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 15:37
But they do. There are thresholds on earning that cause you to have a higher tax rate. Graduated taxes are strongly supported by democrats. Which brings me back to my question - why should somebody get hit with a higher rate just because they make more when they are already paying more?
 
109Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 16:06
That's the nature of progressive taxation: an increase in the rate as you make more.

Just to be clear, though: All taxpayers pay the same amount of money on their first X number of dollars. Only those making more than the next tax rate point will start paying more money on the amount above that.

Tax brackets, to make it clearer. If you are single, for example, and make $379,150, you will pay at a 33% rate (before deductions). You will pay 2% more (i.e., 35%) for each dollar more than that (i.e., $379,151 +) but *not* including the first $379,150 which was already taxed.

Here's a good explanation as well.
 
110Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 16:18
Republican Bruce Bartlett tells it like it is.

Talking specifically about the Bush tax cuts, which shrunk revenues by about 2% of GDP:

If revenues had been 2 percent of GDP higher over the last 10 years, the federal debt would be about $2.5 trillion smaller. Instead of having a debt of about 60 percent of GDP last year, it would have been about 44 percent. And that doesn’t take into account all the interest that would have been saved that now adds about $60 billion to the deficit annually. Together, higher revenues and lower interest spending would have reduced last year’s deficit by one-third.

Want to reduce our deficit by a third without having to do anything else? Go back in time and convince the GOP to vote against the cuts.
 
111Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 19:45
PD, I understand the tax brackets and the graduated taxing. I just happen to disagree with the whole premise. Seems rather unfair to me.

This is exactly why I'm in favor of a flat tax.


And the best way to reduce our deficit is by more responsible spending practices first.
 
112Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 21:12
The math doesn't add up on a flat tax, however.

Also, very, very few people making more than the threshold for the top tax bracket are actually taxed at that rate because of deductions. Many of which are only claimed by those in that bracket.
 
113Boldwin
      ID: 53371610
      Sat, Apr 16, 2011, 21:40
PD

...and if you cooked the golden goose entirely you'd even have a surplus. Ya think? I bet you do.
 
114sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 00:27
re 106:

As PD rightly points out in 102:

The middle class and below, pays a FAR greater per centage of their gross income in taxes, than do the wealthy.

Gas Tax, sales tax, etc etc etc. Overall, someone making $50,000 yr, pays substantially more in taxes as a share of their income, than does someone making $1,000,000 yr. A higher rate of income tax for the wealthy, STILL leaves the poor making a higher share of their income in taxes, than does the wealthy.

Why would you think THAT to be fair, or more fair?
 
115Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 09:24
#113: Slicing one third off the deficit is a damn good start. So lets slice 1/3 off the next thing and end the giveaway to the rich that only had the effect of increasing our debt.
 
116Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 09:26
Anyone who thinks we can just underspend out way to debt recovery hasn't looked at the numbers closely. Should we look more closely at what we spend on? You bet--particularly these three very expensive wars.

Taking the expiration of the Bush tax cuts (which were agreed to by the GOP twice) off the table simply highlights that the Right isn't serious about the problem they scream that we should be most serious about: the deficit.
 
117Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 10:37
Like I've said I have no problem with a tax increase. But it had better be preceded by a show of responsible spending by our government.

The responsible spending MUST come first. Otherwise it will never come. And quite frankly, I doubt it will ever come.
 
118Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 10:46
expiration of the Bush tax cuts (which were agreed to by the GOP twice - PD

Structured this way because both sides clearly counted on the winds in the future favoring their own prefered policy, extending them in the case of the GOP. You aren't honestly suggesting the GOP was ever in favor of dropping the Bush tax cuts were you now? Really?

highlights that the Right isn't serious about the problem they scream that we should be most serious about - PD

Really rich. Very soon PD will hear of [and participate in] demonizing the right for executing the very cuts to Medicare that Obama proposed to finance Obamacare...

...thus demonstrating Dems weren't serious about an affordable healthcare system or the deficit.
 
119Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 15:01
150 billion to be saved from improper payments.

Government spending at its best.
 
120Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Apr 17, 2011, 21:20
Very soon PD will hear of [and participate in] demonizing the right for executing the very cuts to Medicare that Obama proposed to finance Obamacare

The irony is that the Right is now onboard ObamaCare as a monet-saving device. Except without the manadate and with vouchers not pegged to inflation.

 
121Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 08:38
I don't see a flat tax passing anytime soon, not because it is regressive and likely to result in a worse situation for most citizens. But it would likely result in much, much higher tax bills for the rich.

Arguing about marginal tax rates is pointless, argue about effective tax rates. To day is the tax filing deadline, how many people in here, paid close to their marginal tax rate?

According to the IRS, the super rich sure don't.
Effective tax rates
 
122sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 09:44
from post 92"

I'll add to it. ;) IMO, the REAL problem, is societies in general for some reason denying the power of human instinct. Humans are greedy, selfish, survivalist jerks some of the time, and if laws and regulation do not exist (or are powerless) to prevent it, it will inevitably happen in any system that allows it to. We are not ALWAYS greedy selfish jerks. We are sometimes quite sympathetic, thoughtful, caring, etc. But if nothing stops us from getting away with the bad ones when we get the urge to, it will happen. And for it to happen in a critical program/system can have disastrous consequences.

Absolutely spot on. I have long maintained that in THEORY, communism is not at all a bad ideal. The problem, is in the execution. Someone has to be in charge, and that someone takes a disproportionate share for themselves, their family, their in=laws, their friends...and suddenly there remains an insufficient quantity for the masses.

Human nature, defeats the ideal.

Pure capitalism, fails in the same way. Pursuit of profit being the single driving motivator; human greed will cause the ownership to take undue advantage of labor. (See late 19th and early 20th century labor for a plethora of examples)

Again, human nature defeats the ideals.
 
123Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 10:32
Being forced to build a couple square miles of wind power generators that aren't even worth hooking up to the grid, in order to avoid paying a marginal tax rate defeats the ideal too. And it isn't capitalism anymore really.
 
124Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 10:36
Sarge

It's not just that communism only changes the people in the luxury deck chairs....

...it's also that Bill Gates under communism, sits on his couch hopeless, useless, and drunk all evening on vodka instead of doing anything with his drive and ability.
 
125sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 10:54
I see.....so bereft of pursuing the almighty dollar; you see human nature as totally lacking in ANY degree of self discipline, ambition and/or drive? IOW, material greed is the only driving force?
 
126Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 10:57
It's the only one athiests have to harness.
 
127sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:06
For 28 years B, I was an athiest. Rose to be numbered amongst the best in the world at what I did in the military. Started 3 companies, alas none of which ultimately proved financially sound. (Under capitalization at start is a biatch, but the way the game is played.)

If I am nothing else B, I am disproof of your contention.
 
128Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:23
While I admit, you did have the socialist system dragging you down somewhat, you had a lot more opportunity than you would have had under an even bigger central government.
 
129Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:25
And your example in no way disproves my contention that self-interest is the only reliable power source athiests have with which to power their wagon.
 
130sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:29
concern over the next qtrs P&L statement, being the driving force, is nothing if not self interest. The very driving force behind capitalism'
 
131walk
      ID: 348442710
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:34
What rubbish #129. I am an atheist, please don't tell me how I think and what motivates me. Ya weirdo.
 
132boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:38
Combined with sales taxes, state and local taxes, and so on, and the less wealthy pay a much, much higher percentage of their income to taxes than the wealthy do. Even when some of those people end up paying no income tax because of EITC or other reasons.

people seem to forget this, if you want to help the economy and tax the rich more then maybe this is where you need to start thinking, by transferring burden of sales taxes and other regressive taxes to the rich.

 
133Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:39
Oh goody. Do tell us what sterling qualities athiests hold in such reliable quantities that you can power your utopia with them.
 
134Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:39
So Boldwin, doing God's work so you can punch your ticket to heaven for the next life isn't self-serving?

Doing God's work for no other reason than the gospel tells you to isn't self-serving? You have to ask, "why am I doing what the gospel tells me to do?"

There is almost always an underlying self-interest in anything a person does.
 
135Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:43
Boikin

First never invite liberals to try a new tax. They don't replace the one with the other. They just add a new burden.

Second, it's been tried. The rich just buy their yachts elswhere.
 
136Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:48
Khahan

The counter to that is that the genuinely self-serving would always be sidetracked by some immediate gain somewhere along the line sooner.

Not to mention that that argument was made by satan many times over, from the case of Job to throwing the christians to the lions to putting them thru concentration camps and horrific modern tortures and the results prove real christians put God's good name and their love for him above their own selfish interests.
 
137sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:51
The rich just buy their yachts elswhere.

Boy, if that doesnt sound like a Liberal speaking.
 
138Boldwin
      ID: 31332179
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 11:58
It's just a natural fact.

BTW Kerry himself actually bought a yacht elsewhere during that period to dodge his own tax.
 
139Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 12:00
real christians put God's good name and their love for him above their own selfish interests.

And that begs the question, "Why do real Christians put God's good name and their love for him about their own selfish interests?"

The answer, "for their own self-serving interests." They can be better people by serving a higher power.

I'm not trying to make anybody anywhere question faith. But once people can be honest with themselves about why things are done, they can be honest with everybody (and everything) else about it, too. There's nothing with self-interest, in and of itself. Its when that self-interest becomes obsessive or such a process in your life that its harmful to others around you thats its problematic.

But until then, be a human and realize that self-interest is involved in nearly every decision you make.
 
140walk
      ID: 348442710
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 12:06
Rock on Khahan!
 
141Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 12:08
proof reading is good. My one sentence in 139 should read, "There's nothing 'wrong' with self-interest in and of itself."
 
142Tree
      ID: 16329157
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 13:01
there are plenty of times where i think Baldwin can't possibly be a real person, that it's strictly an online trolling gimmick, because no thinking person really could believe nor say the things he does.
 
143R9
      ID: 2854239
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 15:08
139: Agreed.
Ask someone who freely volunteers their time to those who badly need the help (soup kitchen, Red Cross volunteers, Doctors without Borders, etc.) WHY they do it. I mean, its clearly a very selfless act, right? Sure, until you realize that one of the reasons they do it (even if its a small part) is because it makes them feel good about themselves. Which is of course self-serving.

There's nothing with self-interest, in and of itself. Its when that self-interest becomes obsessive or such a process in your life that its harmful to others around you thats its problematic.
And unfortunately, its these people who are the hardest to convince.

Boldwin: And your example in no way disproves my contention that self-interest is the only reliable power source athiests have with which to power their wagon.
Heh. In a sense, you are correct. But only because 99.999999% of everything humans do has some semblance of self-interest at its source.

In the sense that you obviously meant... there are plenty of very selfish religious people out there, of all faiths. There are also genuinely kind and thoughtful people of all faiths as well. Athiesm is a kind of faith as well, and is no exception to either.
 
144sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 15:48
Athiesm is a kind of faith as well, and is no exception to either.

Absolutely true and correct. In almost any "pool" or demographic of people, the bell curve will be shown. (assuming the pool is of sufficient quantity)
There will be a predefined % of genuinely "good" people, an approx equal % of genuinely "not good" people, and a vast majority falling somewhere between the two extremes.

Professed Atheism in and of itself, is no more an indication of a lack of moral compass, than is professed Christianity a definitive indicator OF a moral compass.
 
145Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 16:31
The reason this is an issue is because communism could not produce the theorized 'New Man' because athiests just aren't that selfless and giving. It isn't in their motor.

The same will be proven true of the next iteration or synthesis, communitarianism. Tho to be sure they will use every trick man and fallen angel can devise to prove that contention wrong.
 
146boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 16:42
Ask someone who freely volunteers their time to those who badly need the help (soup kitchen, Red Cross volunteers, Doctors without Borders, etc.) WHY they do it. I mean, its clearly a very selfless act, right? Sure, until you realize that one of the reasons they do it (even if its a small part) is because it makes them feel good about themselves. Which is of course self-serving.

that is because everyone is self-serving, religion is merely social control mechanism to direct peoples self-serving desires. This debate is pointless since and atheist, a christian, a Buddhist,a... are all equally self serving. The only reason some people seem more or less self serving then others is because we project our own Psyche on to them.
 
147sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 18:02
...because athiests just aren't that selfless and giving. It isn't in their motor.

An absolutely, totally, utterly...FALSE statement.
 
148Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 18:08
Sarge

Communists tried everything from guns to the head to 24-hr non-stop propaganda to bring out the atheist 'good samaritan' that you claim exists and they couldn't produce a society of them.

Communitarianism is going to try forced labor 'habitat-for-humanity' style projects and they will blather on and on about community till you gag on the word. It won't work either.
 
149sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 18:15
forced labor? Look at child labor here in the US pre-unionization. Look at 19th-20th century labor, pre-unionization. THERE B, was your "forced labor". Pure capitalism, produced damn near slave labor with highly unsafe working conditions and production quotas.

When I first transitioned to Christian, I sought your counsel amongst others, because I acknowledge your knowledge of the Bible exceeded mine then and still does now. However, and B in all honesty, i see very little if any signs of "charity" from you on these boards. Judgementalism, condemnation, damning...yep. I see those. Sense of superiority, pride, disdain for others? Yep, I see those. Charity. compassion, common decency? Not so much.
 
150Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 18:17
so because Communism didn't work, that some how makes Atheists selfish and non-giving?

talk about a non sequitur.
 
151Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 18:52
Sarge

I'm outnumbered 20-1. How much do I have to tie behind my back just to make it fair?
 
152Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 18:53
Communists tried everything from guns to the head to 24-hr non-stop propaganda to bring out the atheist 'good samaritan' that you claim exists and they couldn't produce a society of them

And the Puritans tried everything from excommunication to burning at the stake the bring out the best Christians they could produce, but in the end, they couldn't produce a society of them.
 
153sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 18:56
Fair B? I dont recall in any of my readings in the Koran, the Bible or any other religious guidance writings...any mention of "fair". How about we ignore the very concept of "fair", and just try for human decency?
 
154Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 18:56
Yes, I'll admit the witches are winning the culture war atm.
 
155Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 18:59
Sarge

I am eminently decent. Don't expect me to dignify trolls however.
 
156boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 19:05
Communists tried everything from guns to the head to 24-hr non-stop propaganda to bring out the atheist 'good samaritan' that you claim exists and they couldn't produce a society of them

And the Puritans tried everything from excommunication to burning at the stake the bring out the best Christians they could produce, but in the end, they couldn't produce a society of them.


but they produced a more successful society then then the communist.

I think a better example would be to compare the communists to Spanish Conquistadors and possibly indirectly there religion has forming failed societies.
 
157sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 19:06
More judgementalism? Other than vehemently disagreeing with you, what in your minds eye is constituting a "troll"?
 
158Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 19:30
1) If you are fair-minded and intelligent you know tasteless trolling when you see it and you can recognize wit when you see it as well.

2) If you believe yourself christian you really need to drop your distaste for judgement. You either accept God's judgement of what is right and wrong, good and evil or you aren't christian.

If you on the otherhand take satan's side of the argument and believe everyone should assume that role for themselves then you are free to believe every contrary value judgement is as good as any other. But recognize that you have dropped your pretense of being christian in the process.
 
159sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 19:34
Really B? You quote Leviticus as Gods word vs gay/lesbian rights. Yet, do you eat pork? (prohibited by the same Book) Shellfish? (Prohibited by the same book.) Shave? (Prohibited by the same Book)

Is picking and choosing which verses to obey, part of Gods Law?
 
160Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 19:42
Do you really believe I would have the slightest trouble dispatching those? Really?
 
161sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 19:42
Either you obey, or you dont. There is no "sort of".
 
162Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 19:43
This is better in the baseball forum. But its a nice aside to show somebody being just a good person, no matter what other motives they had.
 
163Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 20:25
Sarge

Were I a member of the physical nation of Israel and had my ancestors obligated me to the terms of what the Bible describes as 'the old covenant'...[there's a clue for you]...then I would feel obligated follow the terms of that legal agreement...

...unless I was aware that the so-called 'old testament' predicted a 'new covenant'...Jer 31:31,33

...and then I had examined the claims of a messiah against the prophecies of his appearance and realized he had in fact appeared, the old law covenant had been nailed up with him and replaced with the 'new law covenant'.

Read Heb 9:15, Sarge.

If that isn't enuff, and it will be, consider:

Heb 8:13

2 Cor 3: 7-11

Compare Heb 9:17,18,23 with Luke 22:20

So I do not pick and choose which legal document I adhere to. God does.
 
164sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 20:44
In which case, the citing of Leviticus as grounds to discriminate against homosexuals (being an abomination before God), is a fraudulent citation.
Because:
1) You are not a physical descendant of the children of Israel. (Though there may be room to argue that given Biblical lineage)
2) Leviticus is the "old" covenant and therefore superseded by the "new" covenant.

 
165Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 21:37
Of course Christians pick and choose which parts of this unerring book they believe. The ones that they don't like have been superceded by the New Testament. They ones they do were re-affirmed.

And, by doing so, they miss the entire point of the New Testament.
 
166Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 21:50
Sarge and PD

The entire point of christianity is the whole-souled willing obedience to God and godly principles which never change as opposed to a merely legalistic approach to God.

Thus we stay away from unclean things and practices which were the principles behind parts of the old law covenant.

When Apostles quote Leviticus and point out that people willfully forget that God punished Soddom and Gomorrah in order to pursue their own loose conduct I am reminded that God's principles never change.

BTW christians aren't in the business of promoting the idea the Bible isn't consistent and can't or shouldn't be followed. Shame on you two.
 
167Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 22:05
Shame on you two

No, shame on YOU for your non-stop campaign to ruin these boards with your self absorbed passion to take every single topic and ram it into the ground. No one cares about your idiotic ramblings. Can't you leave one thread alone?

Your retirement from the boards is LONG OVERDUE!
 
168Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 22:10
I didn't raise the issue, Sarge did in #159.

I have no wish to turn every thread into a religion thread. Maybe if you didn't let the trolls attack my religion in every thread you might not be so tired of hearing about it.
 
169R9
      ID: 2854239
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 22:13
because athiests just aren't that selfless and giving. It isn't in their motor.

(Shrug) I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise B. All I can say is, I'm an atheist, and I'm about as selfless and giving as I can be.

Its almost always wrong to lump people into one collective opinion, and that certainly applies here. I don't judge all religious Christian people by this or all Muslim people by this. I think you can do better when considering Atheists, even if it is an emotionally charged subject for you.
 
170Boldwin
      ID: 253231814
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 22:48
And yet I look in vain for the sharing and caring utopia of 'progressive' dreams.
 
171DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 23:52
I have no wish to turn every thread into a religion thread.

LOL wat
 
172Boldwin
      ID: 193292818
      Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 20:43
 
173Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 13:27
The latest battles over the raising of the debt limit might be neatly sidetepped by Obama in invoking the 14th Amendment.

In the end, it is at minimum a little cheesy of Congress to pass a budget then refuse to pay for it.
 
174Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 21:57
Interesting 'detail'. There are 150-200 billion in new revenues in the republican deal currently on offer according to Senator Kyle.

Rueters on hearing his speech on the floor incorrectly announced that republicans had agreed to those amounts in increased taxes. If you clicked on the link you have seen they are mistaken.

The increased revenues come from non-tax revenues such as sold government assets, fees, etc.

It is hard to overstate how desperate Reuters is to see higher taxes.
 
175Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 22:28
I wouldn't be surprised to see Grover Nordquist behind that particular spin.
 
176DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 22:50
Hmm, I must learn to use the search function on the forums. I could have sworn there was a full-scale conniption from the Boldwin sector when Illinois was selling state assets to lower a budget deficit. Perhaps I was mistaken.
 
177Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 14:30
Ah, I'll help you out. It was Chicago. Chicago city government sold their parking meters claiming they would invest that money.

The deal brought in a lump sum of $1.15 billion which they promised to invest and the deal required them [Abu Dhabi] to upgrade the meters to accept debit card payments.

In order to raise the bidding Chicago raised the meter fees from .25 and hour to a range of $2-$4 an hour.

Then no sooner was the deal completed but then Dailey spent the whole nest egg to cover a shortfall in the city budget during a recession instead of a steady stream of income to the city in perpetuity.

Oh, I forgot to mention, no one loves parking meters. Parking should be free.

The state is trying to repeat the mistake selling the tollroad system to a company in Spain.

I decry this because I don't see any reason any roads should be tollroads at all. Every mile of road is one more mile of public transit rail and bus the governmment doesn't have to involve itself with. Roads are my freedom. Public transport and tollroads are despotic. Especially when the initial bonds to finance the tollroads came with the promise they would become public freeways as soon as the bonds were paid off.
 
178Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 14:49
I would add that roads [and a very limited park system] are one of the few 'government owned' things that really feel like government and 'we the people' are one and the same thing.

If the government were to refuse to curtail profligate spending and cover a resultant one time shortfall by selling my road to Spain's Cintra who would turn it into a toll road forever...not so much 'we the people' anymore.
 
179DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 14:53
I actually agree with you that toll roads, in general suck -- but the alternatives were likely:

1. Raise taxes to cover new roads,
2. Raise other fees (or gas taxes or something),
3. Don't build the roads.

I would have thought that imposing fees on the people actually using the roads would be a vastly more conservative position than paying for them in other ways.

Anyway, selling government assets amounts to the same thing as what was done with the Illinois toll roads -- you're now leasing buildings instead of owning them, for the easiest and simplest example. In the short term, that's a great one-year budget trick, but in the long run it amounts to a serial credit card debtor hocking his furniture on Craigslist then going to Aaron's to rent a new set of furniture.
 
180Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:04
1) Roads and powerful personal transportation are crucial to individual liberty. I'd even agree to pay higher taxes to buy every poor person a beater car and a gas card so they could get to work and build even more roads if we could get the government to stop wasting money on public transportation.

2) Toll roads are fine as long as they actually retire the toll when the financing bonds have been covered by the tolls. Who could complain about the road being built by the exact people who use it at the rate they use it?

Can anyone find me an example where that was ever done? Retiring the toll as promised?

What actually happens is that revenue stream after the bonds are paid off goes to maintain the road but then the considerable excess goes into the toll road board members' pockets and a substantial part of that ends up in the campaign funds of the current governor who has power to retain them.
 
181Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:05
Selling the government's buildings and then leasing them back...problem solved.
 
182biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:05
Oh, I forgot to mention, no one loves parking meters. Parking should be free.

I love, love, love parking meters. Otherwise I would never be able to park, or would have to circle downtown for an hour to get lucky and catch someone leaving.

Why would you be promoting socialism for the driver set?

Public space for parking is a good just like any other good. And it has massive negative externalities attached.

Seattle is dabbling with usage-based parking, where the higher the usage, the higher the meter cost. And the lower the usage, they drop the meter cost. So I drive much less often, but when I do, it's quick and convenient. Perfect.
 
183Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:09
Similar thing happened in Ohio, with the Ohio Turnpike. Bonds got paid off, and immediately they did nothing--it continues to be a toll road to this day.

I agree: Certain public responsibilities (roads/bridges/fire/police, etc) should remain in public hands rather than privatized.
 
184Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:13
Why would you be promoting socialism for the driver set?

Because the driver set is 100% of the population or it should be...

...and driving on public roads [and it's associated parking] is the most efficient way to do public transportation. The free market has proven it. The people have voted with their feet and they walked to a car lot, not to a train station.
 
185biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:15
Can anyone find me an example where that was ever done? Retiring the toll as promised?

520 Bridge in Seattle. Tolled from 1963 to 1979, when the bridge was paid off.

Planning to build a new one now, with a new tolling structure.
 
186Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:16
Yes PD/TREE...except if you actually live next door to a station on the N-line and the roads are overburdened.

Which is an excellent argument in favor of urban sprawl, not in favor of compacted populations and mass transit.
 
187Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:19
tree?
 
188Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:28
He said something about once dating a girl on the N-line.



Fix that spending curve and that revenue curve will be just fine right where it is. It will improve automatically in fact. - Ed Morrissey via Hot Air via Instapundit
 
189Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:36
bili#285

The governor must not have been able to figure out how to siphon the tolls. But thanks for the example. Too small a project perhaps. I feel a teensy little bit better now.
 
190biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:39
All that shows is that the Bush Tax cuts destroyed our tax-base and we are fighting three wars and Bush/Obama had an historic near-collapse of the world financial structure that needed bailing out.

Even without the disaster, we'd be far below trend line on revenue.
 
191biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:53
Because the driver set is 100% of the population or it should be...

37% of Seattle doesn't drive. Our traffic is in the top 10 for cities even though we have been driving ever-less in the last decade with an increasing population.

If we were to toss the 65% of people who find other ways to get to work during the morning commute back into their cars, We would have people sitting on the highway for 4 hours, getting to work, getting right back in their cars and sitting on the highway for another 4 hours.

Sprawl has made this infinitely worse, as people now routinely commute from far-flung housing tracts over an hour away, clogging the roads with steaming, angry, pathologically murderous drivers. What a nightmare existence.
 
192biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 15:58
I will only touch briefly on my rant on how I, and all the other folks who don't own a car or don't routinely drive, vastly over-subsidize drivers/roads through a variety of non-usage based taxes at every level of government. I'm guessing I personally subsidize drivers to the tune of $5-6000 annually, as my truck just sits in the driveway 5 out of 7 days, and when it does leave, it's usually for a trip of less than 3 miles.

Typically the people who are asked to subsidize our national addiction to cars are the least likely to be able to afford it, but they are forced to anyway.
 
193Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:01
1) That recession [where the revenue takes a nosedive in 2000] started before Bush took office. For all the bellyaching you've done about 2008 being Bush's recession, the 2000 recession was Clinton's.

If that dip was the Bush tax cuts it would have shown up in April 15 2001.

2) I'd like to see that spending curve if that had been a Reagan Revolution president and not a [compassionate aka big social spending] neocon president.

 
194Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:06
bili

Despite Chicago's claim...big cities and highly compacted populations don't work.

Which is apparently why Agenda 21 and our clever global elitist overlords are planning to force us all into compact cities whether we like it or not.
 
195biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:13
So you want to go back to an agrarian society? Disperse the world's 4 billion urban dwellers into...where? The dessert? Central Illinois?
 
196biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:17
If that dip was the Bush tax cuts it would have shown up in April 15 2001.

That sure looks like when the decline started to me.

The vast majority of that spending was initiated by Dubya.
 
197Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:24
Absolutely, bili. W both raised spending levels and cut revenues.

Best thing to do: Nothing. If Congress lets the Bush tax cuts expire and doesn't tinker with the current changes in Medicare & health care as already is the law the revenues and spending catch up to each other rather quickly.

The GOP wants to believe this is all about spending--it isn't. It is about revenue.
 
198Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:32
bili

Believe it or not I drive down most streets without ever being slowed by traffic. Lots and lots of forest and rivers and wildlife and open spaces and reasonable sized cities. Public transit gets tried and fails every other year.
 
199biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:34
I also believe you mentioned a problem with underemployment...

Just saying.

I could spend my days driving in the country too. That's not where the jobs are.
 
200Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:41
And the Agenda 21 groupies on the county board got massively swatted down the last two refenda they tried to get county-wide planning powers.

Most Agenda 21 groupies would keep putting it to a vote until the public finally made a mistake voted their way. Not ours. They went ahead and assumed county-wide planning power anyway. No idea how they get away with it.
 
201biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:43
Georgia's crops are being plowed under because they are one of the first to start checking immigration status. And all those unemployed workers are, oddly, not jumping to work long hours picking crops. They are instituting chain gangs as a stop-gap, but that isn't working out too well.

So you and your boys should pack up and head south! No traffic, work outside of cities, spend your free time driving the country roads. Perfect. I'm sure you are heading down now. Let us know how the first 10 hours of back-breaking labor on the hot sun goes for you, and see if you can find time for a rant about them Mexican freeloaders.
 
202biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:45
Who the heck is the subject of your latest paranoid conspiracy theory? Century 21? Agenda 21? Marxist Realtors? Nazis?

Those of us who don't read WND are clueless.
 
203Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:51
Why do you allow quasi-governmental NGO's and pointy-headed accademics and the UN and lying-thru-their-teeth politicians a forty year head start planning your future without reading what laws and regulations they are writing?
 
204DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:55
Because we effectively live in a two-party society right now, and your side is worse.
 
205biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 16:56
I didn't know NGOs could write laws. I thought that was up to our legislatures. And no, I'm not going to watch your propaganda.
 
206boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:02
re 197: those graphs are clearly wrong how can it be possible that revenues are constant in one and increasing in the other? either one is showing a constant tax increase and/or the the other is showing constant tax decrease.
 
207Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:05
The top one is if we don't do anything (i.e., let the tax cuts expire and don't mess with Medicare/Medicaid as already written). This is the "Extended Baseline" chart.

The other is if we extend the tax cuts. Under that scenario spending cuts can never match revenue cuts.
 
208Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:06
I didn't know NGOs could write laws.

They can if globalist tools in the legislatures accept their work product and pass it into law as they almost always do. And as they eventually always do.
 
209boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:11
re207: that still does not change that those charts are not right that top chart should show a one time jump when when the tax rates go up not linear increase over time that is not matched by the bottom just at lower level. the lines should in theory be parallel not diverging.
 
210Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:12
And no, I'm not going to watch your propaganda.

Then don't pretend that if there was anything to Agenda 21, you'd know about it.

You wouldn't know about it if I stood outside your office and read every 1000 page jargon packed document they produce.

You wouldn't know about it if I read you the cliff's notes version every day.

You are a well paid intelligent ostrich who has no idea where he is being led and doesn't want to know and lashes out blindly at anyone who does.
 
211biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:22
If you want inform me, just tell me. Don't use jargon-packed scare sentences that have little meaning. Don't link to videos of cookoos clucking in the same manner.

Either link me to substance or speak coherently in relating said substance.

Something on the order of:

Agenda 21 wrote a policy document in 1962 and last year the Illinous legislature incorporated their recombendations into a law which delineated:

1) At least 3000 people must, by law, live in a Cardboard box under Wacker Drive by 2030
2) Baldwin, Illinois shall be designated a suburban commune, where nudity and free sexual expression are not only condoned by celebrated.
3) Grapenuts will be the official cereal of the next Chicago World's Fair.
 
212Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:27
Covering your ears and going LALLALLALLA doesn't get any more respectable no matter how you dress it up.

The documents are out there for you to read directly from the source.

You know how to google.
 
213Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:29
And you have a rare advantage. You hail from the land of inaccessible jargon and actually have a fighting chance of understanding them.
 
214biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:31
I don't really give a crap. Every time I've ran off on some wild goose chase you've gotten worked up about, it's turned out to be just that.

If you really thing the nazi's are coming to a small town near you and you want to alert the masses, you better learn to communicate in a passably effective manner. Until then, you are chicken little.
 
215Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:34
Or you can listen to the people who were actually there in government as those policies were being accepted and implemented but who revolted.

You can't tell them they know nothing and if what they describe is loony, that's because reality is loony.

 
216sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:54
did B just post about 1/2 dz times and in no case make ANY effort to in the least little bit, answer bili's ? as to what is Agenda 21? Talk about dodging and weaving.
 
217DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 17:58
Actual footage of bili right now: link

(Tree will appreciate this the most)
 
218biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 18:04
BTW - I've read some of these policy documents, ultra-dense pie-in-the-sky "goals" that sound good, but even the people who are true-believers don't pay them much heed. They generally have some bland, though over-optimistic targets that may get incorporated in some government target document somewhere. They never have teeth, and the only one who remembers them are the crazies who get themselves worked up about government overreach, when long ago the grad student who helped write them up has moved on to more important things, and everyone associated with the project has forgotten about it.
 
219Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 20:30
They never have teeth

Let me direct you to the 'Taking of Antelope Valley' thread.
 
220Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 20:33
in no case make ANY effort to in the least little bit, answer bili's ? as to what is Agenda 21? - Sarge

See the link in #203. Very specific description. I can't improve on that link.
 
221biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 20:35
That's all backed by UN Nazis?

See, this is what happens when you start throwing around wild terms. People stop listening.

So spell out, in non-hyperbolic terms, how Marxist Realtors from 40 years ago are taking over my home town. Or something. I don't even know what's real and what's sheer "death-panelesque" wild speculation with you.

Surprise me, and make some effort to gain back some credibility.
 
222Boldwin
      ID: 4463171
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 20:36
I cannot improve on that link.
 
223sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 23:21
I can:

link
 
224Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 08:48
14T debt / 300M people = $46,667 per person.
Do you liberals even think the US has a debt problem? If so,
What is the plan to pay that back?
What is the payment schedule?
Your plan is to increase this amount?
Why would the solution to too much debt be.....more debt?

"Once public opinion is convinced that the increase in the quantity of money will continue and never come to an end, and that consequently the prices of all commodities will not cease to rise, everybody becomes eager to buy as much as possible and restrict his cash holdings to minimum size. If the credit expansion is not stopped in time, the boom turns to CRACK-UP BOOM: the flight into real values begins, and the whole monetary system flounders." -- Ludwig von Mises (1949)

 
225Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 09:32
"This letter is to ask for your help and support, and that of your colleagues, in the passage of an increase in the limit on the public debt.

This country now possesses the strongest credit in the world. The full consequences of a default -- or even the serious prospect of default -- by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and on the value of the dollar in exchange markets. The Nation can ill afford to allow such a result. The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage lead me to but one conclusion: the Senate must pass this legislation before the Congress adjourns." - Ronald Reagan - 11/16/83


Do you liberals even think the US has a debt problem?

While House Republican leaders slashed billions from all other government agencies, the Defense Department is the only one that will see a double-digit increase in its budget beginning Oct. 1.

link

What's the plan to pay that budget increase back?
 
226Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 09:35
Do you liberals even think the US has a debt problem?

Yes, we do. But our bigger problem, by far, is the lack of jobs in this country.

Cutting government spending right now is extremely short sighted. It will kill off the recovery quicker than anything.

As usual, the GOP is busy trying to solve the wrong problem, as a result of simply not caring about anything other than short-term perceived political gain.
 
227Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 11:30
I'm not with the GOP. I just posted some questions that a concerned citizen might ask. I've been trying for three years now to find out what the plan is to pay this debt back and it just keeps getting worse. What if everyone started paying $100 per month to pay it off. What would that take, about 100 years? Not that half the peole could do that.

The private sector creates wealth and the government sector consumes wealth. When you understand that, you realize that the government cannot create a job. It can take money that could have been used to create jobs in the private sector and use that to create a job. At best this is a push. But there is beaucracy, waste, incompetence, doing unnecessary stuff, etc. Thus it always turns out worse for job creation.
 
228Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 11:58
What a farce, B7. What you should have done is said, "For the past three years I have behaved like Baldwin, rhetorically 'trying to find out' what the plan is to pay back the national debt, and when any number of plausible plans are laid out, ignore them."

I'd love for you to head out to your next local police union meeting and get up to tell them all that their salaries are consuming your wealth that was confiscated by pernicious taxation, that their salaries could have been used to create jobs, but instead they are the personification of waste, incompetence and bureaucracy.

Then go repeat that act at a VFW hall. Make sure to point out that those bums are double sinkholes, they took salaries long ago and now are wasteful consumers of social security, AND VA benefits. Jesus, just think of all the great ways the private sector could use that wealth! You ought to close with, "When Ron Paul is elected, y'all ought to just shut the door to this museum, we won't need it anymore, last one out, turn out the low energy compact florescent lamp".
 
229Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 12:16
The government provides opportunities for the private sector to create wealth. It's not an honest question when you frame it in such one-sided terms.
 
230sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 12:42
Since tax loopholes have recently been described as "tax spending", how about we eliminate NOW; the Bush Tax Cuts? Allocate 50% of that revenue to debt reduction and 50% to SS/Medicare?

Then, eliminate the oil subsidies, and allocate 50% of those $$ to debt reduction and 50% gets added to VA to improve care for our veterans.

Eliminate the mortgage interest rate deduction, and for the here and now, leave tax rates where they are. Allocate the increased tax revenue to debt reduction.

There's a start. REAL debt reduction, REAL closure of loopholes, REAL simple to do too. Cept for the Republicans in the House that is.
 
231Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 17:48
Re: 228, So you don't have a plan. And it's a farce to even ask what it is. Oh OK. I've seen no plausible plan.

Some government jobs are necessary and useful. I never said they weren't, despite your diatribe. Some jobs makes more sense to do it that way or are dictated by law. But, don't count on the government as some big job creator. As some salvation for the economy.

At least sarge33rd has a plan. I think the Bush tax cuts expired in 2010. That would now make them the Obama tax cuts. You should be mad at him. I can't really put a dollar figure on it, but I don't think it's anywhere close to 14 trillion. I know that increasing tax rates does not necessarily result in increased tax revenues. It would also leave less money in the private economy that could be used for hiring. If you eliminate the interest rate deduction, I think house values would go down. Nonetheless, I would scrap the IRS code altogether, and go with some kind of flat tax. I would think that any plan would include cutting spending somewhere. Sarge33rd's plan does not.
 
232Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 17:54
My own "plan" is simple: Let the Bush tax cuts expire. I'd go further and let the Medicare and Medicare plan changes occur (as they already are written into the law).

The CBO estimates the deficit would end within just a few years, without any changes on the spending side

So you'll pardon me if you think we don't have a plan, when in fact the plan is simply to follow the law as already written. One doesn't have to be a bullying loudmouth to actually have a plan in place to tackle the deficit.
 
233Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 19:21
The "Bush" tax cuts did expire. They were extended, but not by Bush.

Your plan will create a $7 trillion surplus per year for two years. That's not believable.
 
234DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 19:47
PD's plan, such as it is, would:

[x] Eliminate the annual deficit.
[ ] Eliminate the national debt.

It helps, when making a remarkably unintelligent but snarky response to a reasonable post, to understand the difference between those two words. You should try again.
 
235Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 20:10
Your plan will create a $7 trillion surplus per year for two years. That's not believable.

I really have no idea where you are getting this number.

I'd suggest reading the actual CBO report (pdf). In the report the points I'm raising are called the "Extended Baseline Scenerio."
 
236Boldwin
      ID: 54651104
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 21:14
Garbage in/garbage out.
 
237Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 23:34
The CBO estimates the deficit would end within just a few years

If you mean the yearly deficit , you should say that. Especially when I've been asking for the plan to pay back the total deficit. There is no plan for that, never has been a plan, and they should not increase the debt ceiling, because they can't pay back what they've borrowed now. Like I said over six months ago, they should have raised the debt limit to $100 trillion when few people were paying attention, and when the D's had control of everything.
 
238DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 23:59
B7: That word deficit, I do not think it means what you think it means.

If you mean national debt, then say national debt. Deficit is a different word, which has a very specific meaning, which he and everyone else in this thread except you is using correctly.

Perhaps they didn't raise the debt (note: not deficit) ceiling to $100 trillion because they are more responsible that you are giving them credit for.
 
239sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Mon, Jul 11, 2011, 00:16
Yes, the Bush Tax Cuts were extended and NO, not by Obama. Rather, by a pestulant bunch of rat-bstrd freshman Republicans in the House.

Every damn one of which, needs to rot in hell for their unashamed America destroying, self serving attitudes. To summarize their position "Fk America, defeat Obama at all costs."
 
240Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jul 11, 2011, 01:11
#237: Sounds like you have a different definition for "deficit" for which you should be upfront about. A deficit means that we spend more than we take in over a period of time (in the government's case, for the fiscal year). A deficit does not carry over into a new fiscal year, because the government borrows the money to cover their bills.

You are confusing deficit with debt (worse, deficit with total debt).

Even if we were to eliminate the deficit tomorrow and run surpluses forever, we would not eliminate our debt for about 30 years. This is because of the length of the borrowing notes already issued. We literally could not pay those notes off early even if we wanted to and had the cash on hand. T-bonds have a term of up to 30 years--while we might stop issuing them to non-governmental agencies if we start running a surplus, they still exist and are considered government debt until they reach maturity.
 
241Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Jul 11, 2011, 09:40
So when D's control the house, the senate, and the president and extend the Bush tax cuts, it's the R's fault? That's excellent.

I'm talking about paying back the $14.5 trillion dollars in debt. Make the corrections as you feel necessary. Obfuscation aside, it will take over 30 years to pay it back. First you have to run a surplus, which they never do. Under Obama's budget it would have run up to $20 trillion. That got voted down 93-0. Now he's suddenly concerned about the debt. I think most of the debt is not 30 year term anymore. It's 3 or 5 year that they keep rolling over.

 
242boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jul 11, 2011, 10:00
I have a plan, lets have fundraiser to save America. It seems like everyone is favor of paying more taxes it would be an easy chance for people to decide what they feel more they should pay extra to save America. They can have celebrities and you will be able to text in donations.
 
243DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Mon, Jul 11, 2011, 11:40
As a random aside, I look forward to a bunch of NFL draftees abandoning their professions now that they rookies will be getting a significantly reduced wage scale.

I mean, if raising taxes on the wealthy by 5% or so is supposed to stifle growth and make people quit working, then surely cutting salaries by up to 50% over past players in similar positions will do the same thing?
 
244Razor
      ID: 31610612
      Mon, Jul 11, 2011, 15:16
"So when D's control the house, the senate, and the president and extend the Bush tax cuts, it's the R's fault? That's excellent."

It is when the R's hold hostage the tax cuts that we needed to get the ones we didn't need and couldn't afford.
 
245Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Mon, Jul 11, 2011, 17:39
If only the minority in the Pelosi House held that kind of power we wouldn't be saddled with socialized medicine run by evil madmen like Ezekiel Emanuel.
 
246Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Mon, Jul 11, 2011, 18:25
Bizarre rant aside, I assume you realize the difference in procedure in the House and Senate and how the minority party is much more powerful in one house than the other.
 
247Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Mon, Jul 11, 2011, 19:01
So the Senate republicans were responsible for the Reid Senate. I see.

That's not how it felt at the time.
 
248Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Mon, Jul 11, 2011, 19:24
See post 244
 
249Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 09:37
IBD/TIPP Poll: 70% Oppose Raising Debt Ceiling

In a survey of 915 adults taken from Jan. 30 to Feb. 5, the IBD/TIPP Poll shows an overwhelming 70% agree that "Congress should not increase the debt limit." That's a stunning number, when you think about it.

Just 25% say they would raise the debt limit. Even a majority of Democrats — 55% — say raising the limit is a bad idea (see chart below). Some 86% of Republicans and 74% of independents agree.

 
250Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 09:41
Wonder what the current numbers would be, now that people realize that defaulting on the debt would be a bad, bad thing?
 
251biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 09:45
Either they were simply measuring ignorance on the issue 6 months ago, or they were pulling a biased sample.

Here's a fresh one:

Pew -= July 11th.

 
252Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 09:47
Of course, when faced with a Tea Party which believes both that it knows this issue well and that defaulting on our debt isn't a problem such a thing as we are seeing from the GOP isn't a surprise.

As a follow up to #250: attitudes are shifting quite a bit about the problems with a debt default, which can only mean that the Tea Party is not converting others to its fiscally unbalanced ways.
 
253boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 10:10
They should raise the debt ceiling, more correctly I would say there should not be a debt ceiling since the number is arbitrary. But with that said despite the apocalyptic forecasts of the debt ceiling not being raised it really not that bad. First off they are not going to default on anything at least not immediately they are just going to go in shut down mode like the do every few years anyways. At which point they will vote the raise the ceiling.

There is way to much sky is falling talk, until the sky actually falls there is since that people are starting to stop believing.
 
254Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 10:51
Wait, you mean the media will hype an issue and blow it completely out of context? I have a hard time believing that ever happens. It is purely an honest mistake that the first snow storm of the year locally is forecasted as the blizzard of the century with predicted snowfall of 12-18" When we actually get a light dusting, it is not discussed or an error in the model.

I have to admit that I get the majority of my news recaps here and other sources as I no longer wish to support the main stream media. The whole 24 hour news cycle and hundreds of news sources has turned out to be a disaster of everyone claiming bigger and more outrageous headlines to be heard or noticed.
 
255Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 13:31
Either they were simply measuring the ignorance on the issue in the Pew poll, or they were pulling a biased sample.
 
256Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 15:19
Is that right? And how is that so?

Meanwhile, McConnell backs away from the edge after Obama warns that Social Security and other payments might be delayed without a debt limit in place.
 
257Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 16:27
Remember when Obama's answer to republicans was 'I won'?
With those two words — “I won” — the Democratic president let the Republicans know that debate has been put to rest Nov. 4 - WSJ Jan 2009
Right back atya. We won. The people have spoken. The sky is not the limit when it comes to the government credit card.

Go ahead and do your dance with the media. Froth away over the next shutdown. Maybe you can demagogue your way to another blank check from the people.
 
258DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 17:14
So, you concede you're totally and indisputably wrong to be frothing away then, because having one house of Congress and the President > having one house of Congress. They all won, after all.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 
259Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 20:39
Which one 'controls the purse strings'?
 
260sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:02
the House PLUS the Senate. Anything passes the House, but fails to pass the Senate...doesnt go to the Presidents desk. Control of the House, does NOT give control of the government.
 
261Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:41
Is that right? And how is that so?

Why didn't you ask biliruben that question? He started it.
.................
What does Social Security have to do with the debt limit. That's supposed to come out of another pot of money. In fact, people are supposed to just be getting their own money back. Obama might delay it? That's lovely. There were no delays when they sucked it out of their paycheck.And their company matched it. Hard cash, sent to Washington. Some of it in the 60's or before. Why are they co-mingling funds. This explains why the D's don't want people to have an individual retirement account vs. S.S.
 
262Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:47
Sarge

You know perfectly well I didn't invent that phrase and that it is well known for a reason. It is true.
 
263DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:47
I'm also sure Boldwin was completely on board with whatever the Democrats wanted to do in 2008-2010 on the basis "they won". Someone go find me the quotes to back this up.
 
264Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 22:06
The Economist with a good write up of the situation and what a dangerous game the Republicans are playing.
 
265Boldwin
      ID: 166451321
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 23:25
I hadn't remembered that the Economist was such a liberal rag. One good point I gleaned from that days' Economist take was the line...'amoral bureaucratic predators ravening for power.'.

Very hard to improve on that description of liberals and globalists.

Of course the liberal who offered it up meant to sneer at it but let's not look a gift horse in the mouth.
 
266sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 23:48
perhaps B when Conservatives are blasting the current crop of freshman republicans for being ower grubbing fools, willing to chuck the coucntry for their own political brownie points, one should consider that perhaps; the opposition has a valid point or two.

Sh*tting on your country, is NEVER "patriotic".
 
267Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 13:17
Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling while Senator. The total debt was trillions dollar lower back then, also. Has he provided any explanation as to why he was against it then, and now it is imperative that it must be raised? Has any reporter asked him? Concerned citizens would like to know.
 
268Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 14:32
Sure there are republicans who are playing power games and politics with the debt ceiling to push their own agenda. But don't pretend for one second that those are not the exact same games the dems are playing. Just right now the dems are playing it better from the PR perspective.

Each side has an agenda and that agenda is based on 'republican' and 'democrat.' It is not based on American citizensor constituents. Both sides are just as guilty of holding up talks and stalling and pushing their own agenda. So please stop pretending this is a republican thing.
 
269Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 14:34
Do concerned citizens know what Google is? If so, there are thousands of results on how Obama regrets the vote.
 
270DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 14:56
"Each side has an agenda and that agenda is based on 'republican' and 'democrat.' It is not based on American citizensor constituents. Both sides are just as guilty of holding up talks and stalling and pushing their own agenda. So please stop pretending this is a republican thing."

Please copy and paste this and change the last Republican to Democrat the next time B7 or Boldwin posts. I'll be impressed.

You're basically mostly right, of course.
 
271R9
      ID: 2854239
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 15:06
So, what are the odds these two sides come together and create a plan to raise the debt ceiling?

The rest of the world is watching. If you spin us all into another recession because of political bickering and deadlock, I'll... I'll... write one heck of a mean letter!

But yeah seriously, solve the f'ing problem already.
 
272Boldwin
      ID: 166451321
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 15:08
There is no chance Obama is gonna let this opportunity pass without running the republicans thru the same shutdown and liberal media firestorm they endured during Clinton's years.
 
273Boldwin
      ID: 166451321
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 15:10
Especially not when there are fools out there who will blame the entire double-dip depression on republicans in it's entirety.
 
274DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 16:04
"So, what are the odds these two sides come together and create a plan to raise the debt ceiling?"

Somewhere in the 99+% range. I'd say 100% but wackos gonna wacko.

"There is no chance Obama is gonna let this opportunity pass without running the republicans thru the same shutdown and liberal media firestorm they endured during Clinton's years."

'Do unto Republicans as they've been doing unto you' seems fair, if not nice.

"Especially not when there are fools out there who will blame the entire double-dip depression on republicans in it's entirety. "

Blaming the entire double-dip recession, the current debt, or basically anything else on just one of the two parties is pretty foolish, yes. Of course, it's pretty hilariously hypocritical that you know this and yet you say the things you do.
 
275Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 16:08
There is no chance Obama is gonna let this opportunity pass without running the republicans thru the same shutdown and liberal media firestorm they endured during Clinton's years.

Yeah, a "real" president would never mention when his political opponents do stupid things.
 
276DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 19:24
Will throw it here (and can someone take a minute to explain how to post images please?) -- thought this was nice.

link
 
277Boldwin
      ID: 396501420
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 21:50
Pffft...just call Algore for the location of the lockbox key.
 
278Boldwin
      ID: 396501420
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 22:09
News from Minn:
Dayton has given up on imposing tax increases as a condition of ending his shutdown of state government. Why did Dayton agree to end his shutdown now? This is pure speculation, but my guess is that he is looking at poll data that are not supportive of his position. - Powerline via Instapundit
 
279sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 22:14
and as we all know...As goes Minn, so goes the entire nation. So, which former WWE Star are you endorsing for Gov of IL B?
 
280Boldwin
      ID: 396501420
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 22:26
The McConnell Offer
McConnell emphasizes that he intends this proposal as a backup plan, to be pursued only if everything else fails.
-----
The New York Times and Wall Street Journal editorial pages both endorsed the McConnell proposal, for different reasons. That is astonishing.

POLITICO reports that many House Republicans were furious with the proposal, and that some Senate conservatives are also not onboard.
----

The McConnell bill does not increase the debt limit. It authorizes the President to increase the debt limit, as long as Congress doesn’t prevent him from doing so. Thus, you as a Member of Congress could vote for the McConnell bill, then vote for the subsequent resolutions of disapproval, and honestly say that you never voted to raise the debt limit. Yet the debt limit is much more likely to be increased, given the lower success hurdle of just sustaining a veto. This political logic is core to the proposal.
-------
All four debt limit increases would happen: $100 B in late July / early August, another $600 B in September, another $900 B in the fall of 2011, and another $900 B in mid-2012, for a total of $2.5 trillion between now and the end of 2012. If revenue forecasts hold up, that should get through the remainder of this Presidential term.
-------
# The President would, as “required” (see below), make his three spending cut proposals. There would be lots of back-and-forth over whether his proposals were real and/or legitimate.
# Congressional action on the spending cut proposals is difficult to predict, but I wouldn’t hold out high hopes for these proposals to provoke significant legislative action. They would, however, create pressure for the President to be more specific than he has been up until now.
Hard to see how any deal that undercuts the House is a plus for Republicans, but it...

1) Puts the blame for picking the cuts and for raising the debt ceiling squarely on the president.

2) Allows republicans to ride the fence both facilitating the increase and voting against it.

3) Avoids the predictable media firestorm blaming only republicans for a mutual deadlock.

4) Kicks the can down the road till 2012 when presumably republicans might hold both sides of congress and be in better position to mandate a real solution.
 
281Boldwin
      ID: 396501420
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 22:27
Sarge

What would you be saying today if he had been able to force tax increases?
 
282Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 22:32
“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership . Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.”

Barack Obama, March 16, 2006.....when the debt was about 5 trillion dollars less.
'''''''''''''''''''''
I see George Liberalopolis asked Obama about this vote. Obama claims it was a mistake. After five years and having the tables turned, he suddenly decides it was a mistake. How do we know he's not making a mistake now. Anyways, if Republicans make the same "mistake", I'm sure Obama will understand and be sympathetic.
 
283DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 22:47
Hard to see how any deal that undercuts the House is a plus for Republicans, but it...

... would be a completely political move designed to save face, which will not work with anyone not already in their back pocket, and which continues to postpone and delay.

WE MUST NOT DELAY ANY FURTHER, WE MUST TAKE A STAND NOW TO PROTECT AMERICA'S FUTURE (unless we can blame it all on the other guy). And you're in favor of this sleazeball crap, I guess I'm not surprised.
 
284Boldwin
      ID: 396501420
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 23:15
Eventually a political calculation will have to be made that Americans are finally concerned enuff about America bankrupting itself to ignore the liberal media hysteria over an impasse and a shutdown. We're close if not there today.

Until that day there is nothing but bankruptcy in sight.

For all the frothing about downgraded bond ratings, Moody's will someday frown on a country with higher interest payments than income worse than one with a temporary showdown to prevent overspending.
 
285sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 00:12
The debt, as a per centage of the GDP, is in fact...sustainable. What is not sustainable, are unending increases to both entitlement spending AND Defense spending.

1) The wars HAVE to come to an end. Screw "winning" the damn thing. You can not win a war, against a non-national opponent.
2) Tax breaks for those least in need, must come to an end. (Increase revenue NOIT by raising taxes but by putting them back where they were.)
3) JOBS...MUST become center stage item/topic of discussion/action. Increase workers = decreased unemployed = decreased UE payouts = increased tax revenue = good for everyone, not just that family.


re 281..my 279 was in response to your poll reference in 278. Personally, I dont much care what MN does within the confines of its borders. (With a few exceptions) My reply owuld be the same for the most part...who cares, cause MN does not serve as a national indicator.
 
286Boldwin
      ID: 16637151
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 02:37
Personally, I dont much care what MN does - Sarge

That makes you a very unusual liberal, because most are very eager to see Minn and Wisc work out as a metaphor for the national stage play between the nanny state and the Tea Party and they assumed they would win those state battles to build momentum for defeating fiscal sanity at the national level.
 
287Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 06:13
That makes you a very unusual liberal, because most are very eager...

you've discussed this with every liberal out there, i gather?
 
288Boldwin
      ID: 16637151
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 08:27
I've heard my fair share of Air America and read my fair share of liberal blogs.
 
289DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 10:13
Re: 287 -- Rasmussen/Fox News poll got it covered.
 
290Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 11:06
I've heard my fair share of Air America...

and when did Air America discuss that most liberals are very eager to see Minn and Wisc work out as a metaphor for the national stage play between the nanny state and the Tea Party?

 
291Boldwin
      ID: 16637151
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 11:16
Instapundit poll:
Who will you blame if there’s a debt ceiling impasse and a government shutdown?
  • By “blame,” do you mean “high-five?”
  • You say “government shutdown” like it’s a bad thing.
  • I’ll blame the greedy GOP.
  • I’ll blame the greedy Democrats.
  • Present.
  • That’s above my pay grade, especially in the Obama economy.
 
292sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 11:58
here wont be a govt shutdown. Under the 14th Amendment, the Pres does not need Congress to raise the debt ceiling. The expenditures were already approved by Congress, so there is no toe-stepping there either.
 
293Boldwin
      ID: 16637151
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 12:05
Past is prologue. It worked so good for the Dems and liberal media partnership during the Clinton years, that they will feel compelled to try it again. Their hope will be to pin the second half of the depression on republicans before the 2012 election.
 
294Boldwin
      ID: 16637151
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 12:13
And BTW the threat to SS benficiaries was grossly dishonest on many levels. Not the least of which is that SS is a special class of debt that can be sold on the market to bring in the exact amount of cash needed even if there weren't FICA receipts specifically to cover the bill which there barely are.

And Obama good and well knows this.
 
295Boldwin
      ID: 16637151
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 12:28
And if you think the media isn't liberal biased, they are letting go without comment that Obama is thereby admitting there is no SS lockbox, and that he intends to take your FICA social security payments and pay federal workers he favors more than seniors.

Naturally the compliant media is content to portray that as republicans being heartless to seniors.
 
296sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 12:50
re the link in 294 what a crock of sh*t. Assuming the debt ceiling to be a valid limitation, then if it is not raised SOMEONE does not get paid.

The author of that artiucle, in his blind hatred closes with; "

OK, so ASSUMING the DC to be valid, AND assuming it is not raised; who/what does not get paid? LE as in FBI? Judges? Military personnel?

The author is correct with the first part of the last sentence: This is simple That part he has right It is the follow on where he goea awry.

This is simple: QUIT HOLDING THE NATION HOSTAGE YOU PARTISAN HACKS, OR FACE THE WRATH OF THE VOTERS NEXT ELECTION CYCLE AND BECOME UNEMPLOYED.
 
297Boldwin
      ID: 16637151
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 14:21
Agreed that a good number of people will have to wait. Hey, I did work for the VA hospital knowing full well I might retire before I ever saw payment, and that was before the shutdown factored in.

But the social security is a special class that does not need to worry as it's got funding mechanisms galore that laff at the debt ceiling.

And every impasse is a two party agreement to disagree. There is no such thing as just one side being responsible. Both find it politically or ideologically compelling [or both] to not give in to the other.

Clinton visited the WH in Dec in fact where he explained the political benefits he experienced from shutting down the government and they game-planned this gambit out at that time. Then Obama left Clinton in charge of the WH news briefing. Appropriately, considering.
 
298Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 15:00
and when did Air America discuss that most liberals are very eager to see Minn and Wisc work out as a metaphor for the national stage play between the nanny state and the Tea Party?

didn't really think you'd answer this, since, well, it didn't happen. nice try though.
 
299Boldwin
      ID: 16637151
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 15:17
Did you really think liberals were so dense they couldn't see a parallel between efforts to shutdown states which chose to rein in runaway public sector spending and attempts at the national level to do so?

There's a good case for projection right there.

Oh wait, I'll go did thru Air America transcripts to find the obvious. Those guys aren't oblivious to the connection.
 
300Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 16:20
you're avoiding the question.
 
301Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 16:20
i mean, when's the last time you actually listened to Air America??
 
302Boldwin
      ID: 16637151
      Sat, Jul 16, 2011, 02:32
Today.

I am doing my own psychological study of you crazies and I am doing so in the heart of the madness, Air America.
 
303Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Jul 16, 2011, 13:45
Today.

can you send me a link? i'm quite curious as to what you're listening to.
 
304Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Jul 16, 2011, 22:41
 
305biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:33
That's pretty much it. Since the federal government is essentially 2 things, in terms of the vast majority of it's expenditures:

1) a security force
2) Security (SS) and insurance (Medicare) for elderly

... and the GOP won't let us touch our military budget, if you want to cut spending, it's pretty clear you are just saying "Screw you, Grandpa".

 
306Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 02:16
AM 820 Chicago station

Or as I like to think of it, 'Inciting violent mob groupthink without ever once explaining or considering why the other side thinks as they do - AM radio'.

 
307Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 02:18
bili

Some CATO help for the paucity of your imagination.
 
308Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 14:27
AM 820 Chicago station

ah, ok. you said Air America.

really, what you meant was a local Chicago AM station, considering Air America's been off the air for a couple years now.

just clarifying your misleading statement. thanks.
 
309Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 16:18
In the time I have been listening they haven't explained what happened. This was the station that carried Air America before they went bankrupt and they haven't changed their format or their favorite crazy talkers as far as I can tell.
 
310Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 17:31
Air America went out of business. you weren't listening to Air America.
 
311sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 18:39
'Inciting violent mob groupthink without ever once explaining or considering why the other side thinks as they do - AM rightwingnut talk radio'

Fixed that for ya
 
312biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 13:24
President Reagan said: “Congress consistently brings the Government to the edge of default before facing its responsibility. This brinkmanship threatens the holders of government bonds and those who rely on Social Security and veterans benefits. Interest rates would skyrocket, instability would occur in financial markets, and the Federal deficit would soar. The United States has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations. It means we have a well-earned reputation for reliability and credibility — two things that set us apart from much of the world.” [Weekly Radio Address, September 1987]
 
313biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 16:40
Can't get much clearer than that. The tea-baggers in Congress are the worst sort of warped, twisted perversion of Reaganite thinking that could possibly exist. It's twice as bad because they claim to honor him, but the just piss on the country he actually wanted to better.
 
314Wilmer McLean
      ID: 46653164
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 05:15
Presidential Radio Address - September 26, 1987 - President Ronald Reagan

My fellow Americans:

There's good news. The Federal deficit for this year is expected to drop by some 30 percent compared to last year. That could be a whopping $65 billion reduction, and it happened without a tax increase. There's also some disappointing news. The Congress, once again, has passed a bill that puts me in the position of accepting legislation with which I fundamentally disagree.

The bill would continue the authority of the United States Government to borrow funds which we must do to avoid the default on our obligations. This legislation also includes a so-called fix of the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings deficit reduction law, but it really is an attempt to force me eventually either to sign a tax bill or to accept massive cuts in national defense, or both. I would have no problem with signing an extension of the debt limit. But the choice is for the United States to default on its debts for the first time in our 200-year history, or to accept a bill that has been cluttered up. This is yet another example of Congress trying to force my hand, and it's one more reason why the President needs the lineitem veto to separate the good from the bad.

Unfortunately, Congress consistently brings the Government to the edge of default before facing its responsibility. This brinkmanship threatens the holders of government bonds and those who rely on Social Security and veterans benefits. Interest rates would skyrocket, instability would occur in financial markets, and the Federal deficit would soar. The United States has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations. It means we have a well-earned reputation for reliability and credibility-two things that set us apart from much of the world.

Some in Congress will claim that if I reject this bill with its Gramm-Rudman-Hollings fix, then I'm against deficit reduction. But, of course, nothing is farther from the truth. Since 1980 when you first elected me to this office, I have led efforts to control Congress' appetite to spend in deficit. Over a 5-year period, while revenues went up 28 percent, congressional spending went up 46 percent. From 1982 to 1987, for every dollar Congress cut from our national defense, they added $2 for domestic spending. Now, that's not fiscal restraint. Two years ago, Congress took a first step to curb spending with Gramm-Rudman-Hollings, and I agreed. Its purpose was to get on a track to lower deficits and eventually a balanced budget. Well, the ink was not even dry before Congress walked away from its own plan. Instead of facing the tough choices to reduce Federal spending, Congress attempted to shift the burden to our national security and to you, the American taxpayers, in the form of new taxes.

For those who say further responsible spending reductions are not possible, they are wrong. For those who say the only choice is undermining our national security at a time when the United States is close to an agreement with the Soviet Union on reducing nuclear weapons, they are wrong. For those who say more taxes will solve our deficit problem, they are wrong. Every time Congress increases taxes, the deficit does not decrease, spending increases. It's time for a clear and consistent policy to reduce the Federal budget deficit.

In the weeks ahead, Congress will have the opportunity to meet this commitment. So today, let's get some things clear. I will not hesitate to use my veto to hold down excess spending, and I will spell out the impact that defense cuts will have on our long-term security interests. You don't need more taxes to balance the budget. Congress needs the discipline to stop spending more, and that can be done with the passage of a constitutional amendment to balance the budget. Congress needs to reform its budget process, at least by breaking up those massive, catch-all spending bills into individual parts. That way, each part can stand on its own. And to meet the new deficit target in Gramm-Rudman-Hollings, if Congress insists on lowering defense spending, then I will certainly insist on lowering domestic spending as well.

This decision is not easy. I have no choice but to sign this bill to guarantee the United States Government's credit. But I also will not permit Congress to dismantle our national defense, to jeopardize arms reduction, or to increase your taxes. I am determined that will not happen.

Until next week, thank you, and God bless you.


 
315Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 14:13
We were told Reagan liked raising taxes. That he was a big tax increaser.
 
316biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 14:39
You were told mo such thing.

Hid deeds were pointed to, which conflicted with his rhetoric.

He raised taxes. He also nashed his teeth.

Words.

Deeds.

There is a difference.

And all of this aside, the tea-baggers are still pissing on Ronald's country, and doing things to destroy Reagan would have considered treasonous.
 
317Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 15:50
See Roubini thread. Let me see if I follow this, you're saying you don't like the Tea Party?
 
318Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 18:02
No one in that thread said Reagan like raising taxes. They called him a political realist and a man willing to negotiation and compromise with his political opponents.
 
319Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 18:21
No, my distinct impression was that you were going for the full bore hoodwink.
 
320Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 20:05
Your impressions are decidedly Impressionistic. Try Realism.
 
321Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 20:42
Obama expresses shock, anger that the Not In Good Faith Party walks away from the table.

Big cuts in entitlement spending plus no tax increases? Not good enough.

Time for the Dems to put in a clean bill. That is, yes or no to raise the debt limit to the amount that Congress budgeted.
 
322Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 22:33
2006 Senate vote to raise the debt limit

All 46 Democrats vote no to raise the debt ceiling. Including Obama, Harry Reid, Schumer, Biden, Boxer, Feinstein, Kerry, Harkin. Political hacks all of them. And it was "only" 9 Trillion then vs. 14.5 Trillion now. Did all 46 make a mistake like Obama is now claiming?
Gosh, I wonder why they all voted no then and now it is imperative that we raise it.

And mostly all of the R's voted for it. They're not much better. At least they can claim, 9 trillion is OK, but I draw the line at 14.5 trillion.

A while back we had the greatest generation, now we have the mooch generation. The debt generation. One of these days the young generation will wake up and realize they're getting screwed and vote against politicians responsible for this. It will probably be too late for them, though.
 
323Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 22:50
"Obama expresses shock, anger that the Not In Good Faith Party walks away from the table."

So funny anyone takes a word of this seriously. This is entirely stagecraft. It's kabuke theater.

Obama, the Dems in congress, the media are all playing their roles.

It's all designed to make Obama appear electable in 2012. He's the reasonable guy in the room facing down the Dems going all Vesuvius on him. Riiiight.

All the while the Dems never had the slightest intention of negotiating a deal. Unless the impossible happens and Obama and the lamestream media poll numbers show them losing this gambit, they will replay the government shutdown showdown in the Clinton years.
 
324Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 23:50
The reality that the nutters refuse to accept is that it won't be like the Clinton years.

Friedersdorf:
My colleague Megan McArdle has written a post showing the sorts of specific, draconian spending cuts that would be required if we didn't raise the debt ceiling. They'd be impermissible, even to grassroots conservatives. But the grassroots don't trust her analysis. Moody's warns that they'll downgrade the country's credit rating if a debt ceiling deal isn't forthcoming, and The New York Times reports that Wall Street is preparing for crisis. But the grassroots don't trust financial elites or the mainstream media. It's foolhardy to play games with something so serious as the debt ceiling, various renowned economists warn. But the grassroots don't trust elite academics or the heads of international organizations. So what are the people they do trust telling them?
He then cites excerpts; from Rush Limbaugh assuring listeners it's just Ivy League elite fear mongering and scare tactics. From Mark Levin, writing that the fallout will simply result in whiney liberals. From Sarah Palin, telling Hannity that a debt ceiling deal is necessary but only to the extent that the teanutter caucus doesn't "capitulate". And from Tony Blankley, who is so turned around in his logic as to accuse Democrats of deliberately sabotoging the debt ceiling negotiations. He compares them to the Dr. Strangelove character, preparing to benefit from the coming crisis. And (somehow) claims that now only the House Republicans can save us from the perils of default.
 
325Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Jul 22, 2011, 23:59
Marxists don't care how they bring down capitalism.

Overspending it into oblivion is fine by him.

Obama will be perfectly happy with whatever damage a shutdown causes as long as he can get away with blaming the republicans for his intransigence. Damage to his campaign is the only damage he is worried about.
 
326Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 00:03
Damage to his campaign is the only damage he is worried about.

To whatever extent you believe that, must it not be even more true of everyone who is actually on record rooting for the debt ceiling talks to fail?
 
327Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 00:39
This is a crucial moment in deciding if the USA bankrupts itself on the rocks of ever increasing spending or performs a last minute intervention on the spendaholic.

The marxists are not about to let go of the Cloward-Piven strategy and the pro-americans are not about to go down the same drain as Greece.

Kicking the can down the road and agreeing to one more overspending deal seems one-sided in favor of the Cloward-Pivens forces.

An awful lot rides on whether the Democrat media succeeds in their spinning.
 
328Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 00:58
324 makes a strong case that the nutbagger media has succeeded in theirs.
 
329Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 00:59
No one is talking about more spending. Obama has offered tons of spending cuts. So long as you believe "marxists" are "overspending" you'll continue to misunderstand the consequences of the issues being discussed.

#322: Obama has expressed some regret at that vote. But there is certainly something to be said for a protest vote which doesn't actually cause the thing to happen. The GOP, with the actual power to vote up or down on this issue, is treating all this as a protest vote with no consequences.

They are using the debt limit issue to try to "solve" other issues they believe are important. But they will fail at both--they are walking away from a pretty good offer, and they will not only lose the issue, but many of them will lose their jobs. Right after the country suffers a bit more for their childishness.
 
331Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 01:10
PD

Pardon me if I am not impressed with offers to cut spending in Obama's next term.

A) Because I wouldn't believe him. [remember when Bush sr. traded away his political base and his 'read my lips' promise for a deal that would have frozen the ratio of military/social spending? No one else knows where that Dem promise went either]

B) Because he won't be there to deliver on his half of the compromise.

C) Obama pulls every offer off the table in the end just like Lucy/football/Charlie Brown. Why is anyone impressed when he makes an offer?
 
332Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 01:12
He didn't call you a nutbagger. He strongly implied that you've been duped by their strategy, however.

It is in the interest of the conservative media to dupe as many as they can--their bottom line depends upon it.
 
333Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 01:18
Amazingly the liberal media is happy to dupe people even when it kills their ratings/circulations and bottom line.

They are so anti-business that they hate their own business interests.
 
335Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 01:40
I'll leave it up to B on whether I've called him a nutbagger. I'm pretty much following his lead in that civility standard. I suppose he may have never directly called me "libtard" but for all these many years he's consistantly described "liberals" as abjectly stupid and all sorts nefarious (including most recently: racists).

So at his preference, either he can drop his whine de victimhood du jour and we can go on unoffended by how the other describes our ideological kin or I've committed the dishonor of slandering this poor man as a "nutbagger" while I've been called (succinctly) a racist marxist treasonous useful idiot terrorist-coddling moron.

I'll manage to cope either way.
 
336Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 06:46
I'm not on the speech codes, hate-speech, life owes you an offense free environment, side of the issues. I'm just sayin' since you are...

Oh, and just for your intellectual self-respect there's always the option of an accurate description instead of a stupid mob tactic slur.

Oh hey, when you remember you are the on the speech codes, hate-speech, life owes you an offense free environment, side of the issues remember West is black and being the member of a most favored minority, has to be handled with kit gloves. Just be consistent.
 
337Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 08:43
Right, like 'racist', 'misogynistic' and 'morons' when referring broadly to liberals. I do my best to raise myself up to that standard.
 
338Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 09:06
remember West is black and being the member of a most favored minority, has to be handled with kit gloves. Just be consistent.

What a hoot you and your misconceptions about double standards are. Sure buddy you let me know when Democrats send out emails with West depicted as a chimpanzee or his White House lawn as a watermelon patch. I'll be right there with you. If objection to anything less racially demeaning than that is what you refer to as handling with kid gloves, you're barking up the wrong tree.

What was it you said about accurate descriptions instead of a stupid mob tactic slurs?
 
339Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 10:54
Oh, and just for your intellectual self-respect there's always the option of an accurate description instead of a stupid mob tactic slur

coming from you, this is rich, and one of those statements where you continue to top yourself.

if there's anyone on these boards who is the king of the stupid mob tactic slur, it's you. any political "enemy" of yours falls into any number of categories of slur - you couldn't present an accurate representation if your life depended on it.
 
340bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 12:17
Oh come on Tree, it's not like he would call Perm, DW, sarge, you, or anyone else freedom hating Marxists or anything.
 
341DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 12:25
"Oh, and just for your intellectual self-respect there's always the option of an accurate description instead of a stupid mob tactic slur."

We'll hold you to that.
 
342sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 12:32
Oh come on Tree, it's not like he would call Perm, DW, sarge, you, or anyone else freedom hating Marxists or anything.

You forgot "non-mason". :)
 
343Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 19:44
Funny thing is the Air America [defacto and formerly] radio station I listen to uses as their go-to interview Bernie Sanders, congress' only openly admitted, running on the communist ticket marxist.

You guys agree wholeheartedly with Air America. You guys agree wholeheartedly with every position Bernie Sanders has. You guys are marxists. Just admit it finally. Own it.
 
344Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 20:07
Actually he was a Socialist.

Can you get anything right about what is and isn't a "marxist?"
 
345sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 22:06
other than the spelling of course.
 
346Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Jul 23, 2011, 22:28
He is the author of the AudioBook, "Socialist and Communist Perspectives on the 2004 Presidential Election."

Because he is a marxist.
 
347sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 00:56
socialist = marxist = socialist is your first mistake B. Try discerning the difference between the two.
 
348Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 01:15
Because he is a marxist.

Hahaha. By this logic you should never comment on Democrats.

Sanders describes himself as a democratic socialist. I rather believe him over someone who randomly assigns the title "marxist" to pretty much anyone on the left they disagree with.

Before using that audio book as your "proof" it might be useful to look it up. You'll note that there are two authors listed. Hint: One of them is the Socialist, and the other is the Communist.
 
349Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 22:35
Funny thing is the Air America [defacto and formerly] radio station I listen to uses as their go-to interview Bernie Sanders, congress' only openly admitted, running on the communist ticket marxist.

this falls under the Baldwinian argument of "it is, because i say so, even after i've been proven wrong."

the station you listen to isn't Air America. Air America has been off the air for a year and a half.

Bernie Sanders is a socialist. not a communist.

He is the author of the AudioBook, "Socialist and Communist Perspectives on the 2004 Presidential Election."

actually, he's the co-author, along side with Sam Webb, Chairman of the Communist Party USA.

Sanders authored the Socialist aspect of the book; Webb authored the Communist aspect of the book.

sorry to again have to point out yet another one of your lies. or inaccuracies.

You guys are marxists. Just admit it finally. Own it.

and we might as well say to you: you're a bigot. just admit it finally. own it. but that would be against the rules here, wouldn't it?
 
350Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 22:59
A socialist is exactly a marxist. Just a communist willing to take it slow getting there.

The heart of marxism is the heart of socialism. Not any space whatsoever between the two words.

The creed of both faces of the same coin is...

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
 
351Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 23:00
And all you Obamacare supporters are that thing right there.
 
352sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 23:05
socialism, like capitalism; is a political/economic theory. Communism AND Marxism, are both distinct and seperate SUBSETS of socialism.

They are NOT the same things. No more the same, then a Republic and Capitalism are the same.
 
353Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 23:16
The only difference is the amount of force used in carrying it out. [thus the degree of patience or 'slow'ness]

It's all the same thing spread out on a scale of brutal coersion.
 
354Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 23:20
ha. By that logic, you are a Nazi. Nice.

 
355Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 23:23
I didn't expect an acknowledgment of your mistake (it isn't like your god asks you to practice humility or anything) but doubling down on "I see no difference between two different leftist political theories"? Really? No difference between Sweden and Cuba?
 
356Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 23:30
Really. No difference. Other than that brutality thing. Sweden sends the police out to fine you into compliance. Cuba stands you up against a wall and puts you thru a mock execution. Or a real one.

But they both are enforcing the long discredited political/economic utopianism, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." as if it actually worked in the real world.
 
358sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 23:45
(self edited due to excessive typos...even for me)

Capitalism doesnt seem to be doing very well atm either. Gee, here we get to just plain ole starve to death. No need to waste money on a bullet. Be patient, the poor will die off eventually.
 
359Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 23:56
Have you noticed the socialist anchor tied around the ankle of capitalism?

A very heavy socialist anchor. Our socialist 'benefits' are costlier and more wasteful than anything the USSR or China ever paid out to their citizens.
 
360sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 02:05
without which, 12% of our population would have already starved to death over the past 3 years. It would seem, you would prefer that such occured.
 
361Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 03:19
Not quite sure what an employer paid insurance program has to do with socialism.
 
362Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 10:37
Our point exactly.

A socialist health care system would look completely different from what we have in the United States.
 
363Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 13:33
PD

Are they holding a gun to your head telling you have to pay unemployment insurance, whether you want it or need it or not, PD? Have they driven private insurance out of it or are they planning to?
 
364Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 13:53
I have no idea what you are talking about. And I suspect you don't either.
 
365Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 14:40
What did you pay in unemployment insurance premiums last month and what was your fine if you didn't?
 
366Wilmer McLean
      ID: 46653164
      Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 07:07
Reason.tv:

 
367Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 09:57
#365: Sure I paid--I used ADP for my payroll--all that is automatic. I think PA UI is something like 0.08%. I paid like $1.25.
 
368Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 13:30
Per S&P, Boehner plan would cause Treasury downgrade; Reid plan would not.
 
369Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 14:16
Those ratings companies are worthless. They missed the boat on Countrywide, AIG, Fannie Mae, Bear Sterns, Enron, Lehmans, mortgage-backed securities and on and on. They were asked why they had bundles of mortgage-backed securities rated AAA when they turned out to be worth 30 cents on the dollar and they said because the banks told them they were AAA. They should have been sued into oblivion, but they must have some kind of immunity. Any investor that relies on their ratings deserves to lose money IMO. The debt is less than one trillion and we're AAA and it's an unpayable 14 trillion and we're still AAA? If we add over two trillion more to the unpayable debt we'll keep our AAA and if we don't and try to cut some spending and do something about it now, we'll be downgraded. That sounds like the opposite of what they should do to me. I think they're in cahoots with the too big to fail banks who want to keep the gravy train going. Then they say if we don't extend the debt ceiling past November, 2012 we'll be downgraded. What a bunch of garbage.
 
370boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 14:37
I would not worry they won't downgrade the US debt. If US debt is not AAA then it will be impossible for them to convince anyone that any debt is AAA. They will pretty much destroy there own creditability.
 
371Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 14:57
Oh, I agree B7 that the ratings agencies are not altogether good at what they do. But "worthless" as an analytical tool is quite different from harmless. In this case, an actual ratings downgrade would have serious consequences for debt service for the government, no matter how bad or worthless the ratings agencies are.

We saw how they messed up the housing market and how long it will take to recover from that.
 
372DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 15:00
+1.

Corrupt or "wrong" as the rating agencies are, as long as they're relied upon as indicators of creditworthiness (and like it or not, they are, even if they shouldn't be), changing them WILL affect debt service. Even if it shouldn't, objectively.
 
373Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 10:04
I just don't understand how anybody or any institution that is $14 trillion in debt can be considered AAA credit rating.

Oh wait, the banks who make money from people's debts have a say in credit ratings. Now I get it.
 
374Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:10
I just don't understand how anybody or any institution that is $14 trillion in debt can be considered AAA credit rating.

Really? Is it really that hard to contemplate that the world's largest economy would be willing and able to pay off its debts? Never has defaulted before.
 
375DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:16
Khahan,

Me owing $200,000 is a lot different than Bill Gates owing $200,000.

Similarly, Bill Gates owing $14 trillion is a lot different than the US government owing $14 trillion.

It's a ton of money in absolute terms, obviously.
 
376bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:58
14 trillion owed by the US might not equate to 14 trillion compared with Bill Gates, but isn't it comparable to something like $46,000 per US resident?
 
377sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 12:02
Yes, and while I may not be so well equipped atm to handle 46k, I can probably handle 11,500. Gates, can handle 46k + the shortfall from my current status. Similarly, there are ample others able (although in too many cases...entirely unwilling) to handle an individuals shortfall.
 
378DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 12:10
I'd guess that households (including credit cards and mortgages and other loans) owe more than that. (unsourced, unverified guess).
 
379sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 12:40
Every article I find, says the Rep plan is short term, renews this fight during the elections (deleiberate), ties future action to certain other things being made law FIRST (deliberate)...and saves 1/2, what the Dem plan does.

So why is there even a debate? If the Rep mandate was to cut spending, vote FIOR the plan that more than DOUBLES the spending cuts of its alternative.

Oh wait, we have to "play politics" even at the expense of the nations economic well being. So mucvh for Rep claims that they are PRO economic growth.

Lying bastards havve shown their true colors. Quiestion now, how many of our local rightwingers, will hold their Republican Congressmans feet to the fire and DEMAND they approve the plan with the greatest spending cuts? (Anyone care to bet, less than 1 in 20?)
 
380Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 13:18
The point isn't 'can the US handle it.' The point is, "how did the US get there," and the other point is, "the system is broke because the people who make the rules (the banks) are the ones who benefit from the rules."


Technically, the US could be 100 trillion in debt and be able to pay it off (they can print money. I'm not saying this a good idea or wouldn't have long term negative effects). But banks and lending institutions have people programmed to think, "being in debt isn't a bad thing." Well guess who its not a bad thing for?

Being in debt is a bad thing. Deficit spending is a bad thing. It may be unavoidable. It may be a fact of life. But its not a good thing.
 
381biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 14:48
I think using the household budget analogy is really crappy for a variety of reasons, but if you insist:

My mortgage, which encompasses vast majority of our household debt, is approximately triple my family's annual income. Our monthly payments are around 20% of our income, though low-end of the rule of thumb touted by financial planners.

US gross domestic product is around 15 trillion. So if you insist on that analogy, we should run our debt up to 45 trillion.
 
382boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 15:07
Every article I find, says the Rep plan is short term, renews this fight during the elections (deleiberate), ties future action to certain other things being made law FIRST (deliberate)...and saves 1/2, what the Dem plan does.

but saying i will save money is not the same as actually saving money, I can claim I am going to save 100 trillion over the next 50 years doesn't mean I will doesn't even mean I will be there in 5 years to even keep my promise.

 
383Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 15:14
Every article I find, says the Rep plan is short term, renews this fight during the elections (deleiberate), ties future action to certain other things being made law FIRST (deliberate)...and saves 1/2, what the Dem plan does.

Every article you read likes the dems plan better. either because the author truly feels its better or doesn't want the republican plan or simply because its the republican plan. Both plans are full of holes and shortcomings. Both plans are catering to the ideological left or right rather than catering to truly fix problems for citizens. Its just that (and I said this before either earlier in this thread or another thread) the dems are playing the PR game much, much better than the republicans in this.
 
384biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 15:40
Which plan is catering to the ideological left again? Because every plan I've read about, I think sucks white-hot chunks of nasty bilious vomit.

I guess I missed that plan where we invest in our country and people and grow ourselves out of the deficit.
 
385sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 18:50
The CBO, projects less than 1 trillion in saviungs under Boehners plan and only 100 billion yr 1; while they project 2.2 trillion in savings under the Dems plan.

As we all know, both sides quote the CBO frequently, when the CBOs projections fit their aqgenda.
 
386sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 18:52
One of multiple articles I read this morning on the topic. CBO projects 850 billion TOTAL savings under Boehners plan
 
387sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 18:56
re 382...I understand your point boikin; but it is at the moment, a pointless point to try and make. There are some 10-14 days depending on the projection; before we as a nation enter default. There are atm, 2 potential plans as remedies and little time to assemble a 3rd, along with support for it.

So we have essentially 3 choices...

1) Pass the Rep Plan
(and we get to do this again in a cple months and in the meantime, fail miserably in any kind of budget/spending reduction)
2) Pass the Dem Plan
(dont have to do this again until POST 2012 election and reduce spending better than twice the Rep plan)
3) pass neither, go into default, and WISH for the good times of the Great Depression.
 
388Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 04:36
"and reduce spending better than twice the Rep plan"

Today's koolaid flavor. Dems genuinely willing to shrink government twice as far as republicans.

After you've found that thirst-quenching stop in and have a chat with my realtor.
 
389Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 06:56
And read a good book. I'm not even kidding.
 
390boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 09:41
re 387: D) just extend the limit.
 
391Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 10:29
Per S&P, Boehner plan would cause Treasury downgrade; Reid plan would not. - PD

From those wonderful people who backed those highly rated packages of junk mortgages.

Now they will rate America a better credit risk if they continue runaway spending than if they go thru the pain of forcing responsible spending limits.
 
392Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 10:45
Why this discussion has been missing the most important points:

Offers that are genuine

Any spending reduction promises that extend beyond the next election timeframe is meaningless as the future admin and congress is not obligated to live with them.

A promised cut of a trillion after the next election is worth less than a promised cut of a thousand before the election.

Thus you cannot say whose plan cuts more unless you can compare apples and apples. Real accountable offers only please.

Baseline budgeting

Virtually always a cut is not a cut.

Because of baseline budgeting every budget item is counted as automatically inflating every year. Thus if you were to freeze the NEA budget at last year's figure the CBO would count that as a cut of @9%.

If the republicans could pass a spending freeze the CBO would score that as a 9 trillion dollar cut because of the baseline accounting trick.

The last time the government shutdown 'crisis' happened not one actual cut from the previous year was proposed yet the teachers had their entire classes writing the media about how they couldn't learn if they hadn't eaten and the news anchors read each of those letters while they sobbed.
 
393sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 12:02
Boehner wants it bropught up again DURI(NG the election cycle, to use as fodder in campaigning. Thats cheesy politics and its pandering to the base. It is NOT, stepping up with any remotely close to a solution for a dilemma.

I am aware of the tricks used by Washington to make hypothetical "cuts" in a budget, even while increasing spending. (If we planned on raising that budgetary expenditure by 100,000,000 but only raised it 50,000,000...we call that a 50,000,000 cut.)

see my post 387...there is insufficient time, to draft and organize support for...another proposal. (Though I would concede boiokins contention in 390...they could just increase the limit and worry about cuts, taxes later.)
 
394Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 00:11
It all depends on which clinic you ask.
The late Sen. Paul Wellstone of Minnesota was a man of the hard left—"the Senate's most liberal member," as Mickey Kaus once termed him...Wellstone died in a plane crash in 2002, and was immediate lionized...a passionate advocate for his beliefs." He was "a hero to the left," the paper said, noting "there was little doubt where his heart lay." ...a "firebrand,"
This is not, to put it mildly, how Tea Partiers and their congressional cohort have been portrayed during the recent game of chicken over the debt ceiling. Rather, those opposed to raising the debt ceiling—or willing to do so in exchange for a slowdown in the rate of government growth—are "obstreperous," "flatly and dangerously wrong," and "not interested in governing." (These are all quotes from major media organs, not obscure blogs.) They're " proponents of a "dangerous delusion"—"ridiculous," "extremist," "ultraorthodox tax haters," players of "ideological games," "totally unrealistic," authors of "madness," etc. etc.

Hey, what happened to people of conviction? Aren't the Tea Partiers "firebrands"? Isn't there little doubt where their hearts lie?

Rather than praise Tea Partiers as passionate advocates for their beliefs, many in the press have taken to marginalizing them with mean-spirited attacks on their sanity. Wellstone, who championed the rights of the mentally ill, would not be proud.

At this point it might be useful to clarify precisely what the dispute concerns. The question is not whether the federal government should grow. As Reason's Nick Gillespie pointed out a few days ago, nearly nobody in Washington has actually proposed shrinking the leviathan. To the contrary, the dispute is whether to raise federal spending from the current $3.8 trillion to $4.7 trillion over the next decade (the Paul Ryan plan)—or to $5.7 trillion (the Obama plan).
Bear in mind that those increases would come on top of one of the fastest expansions of federal spending in U.S. history. When President Obama took office, the budget stood at $2.9 trillion. Two. Point. Nine.

Spending has risen 30 percent in the past three years. It is quite a feat to grow federal spending faster than the Bush administration: Under Bush, domestic discretionary spending rose faster than at any time since the Lyndon Johnson administration.

If Bush floored the accelerator, then Obama lit the afterburners. And nobody in Washington (except Sen. Rand Paul and perhaps Sen. Tom Coburn) has suggested applying the brakes. For the most part, the cuts being discussed are reductions in the rate of future growth. What does that mean? This: (a) your rent is $10,000 this year; (b) you thought you were going to spend $15,000 next year; but (c) you've decided to spend only $12,000—therefore, (d) you've "cut" your housing expenses by $3,000.

[Ideas to cut the budget] are part of the overall tea party belief that government cannot continue to grow at an ever-accelerating rate — a belief now dismissed as not only wrong, but clinically insane.

The sad part? By Washington standards, it probably is.
 
395Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 00:22
Reason
 
396sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 00:31
the problem with the Reps being "firebrands" for their beliefs B, is a simple one. They have no love of country, only a hatred for Obama. They are perfectly happy, if not eager, to throw the entire country under the bus, in an effort to blame it on Obama.

The debt ceiling MUST be raised, (or Obama invoke the 14th Amendmewnt), and it must be done QUICKLY. Even now, there is talk that the fight has lasted long enough tpo result in an inevitable downgrade of our nations credit worthiness regardless. If that is true, then watch out and hang onto your shorts, cause the Great Depression is gonna look like financial EZ street compared to what comes next.

The Republicans adamant refusal to CONSIDER, ANY kind of revenue increase in conjunction with spending cuts...is IMHO...treasonous. They should each and every gddmn one of them, be charged, arrested and tried.
 
397Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 01:02
Hey, what happened to people of conviction? Aren't the Tea Partiers "firebrands"? Isn't there little doubt where their hearts lie?

I thought they were a diverse group that cannot be pigeonholed. Indeed, you have your fiscal conservative tea partiers, your religious zealot tea partiers, your "Paul Revere's mission was to warn the British" tea partiers, your "the white house lawn became a watermelon patch in 2009" tea partiers, your "the president is a non-citizen Kenyan/Indonesian Islamist terrorist" tea partiers, etc..

Im quite sure that where their hearts lie depends on which tea partier you ask. In fact I believe Boldwin himself has repeatedly stressed this very point.
 
398Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 09:07
Sarge, 396 -

You do realize that its 2 sides trying to come to an agreement. I really am tired of seeing all the blame for this put on the republicans. Both Dems and Republicans are in this trying to resolve it and its not getting done. So don't sit there continually blaming the republicans for not backing off of what they want. Neither side is backing off of what they want.

Blame them all or look at ridiculous as the rest of people in the country who can't see past partisanship. That is truly what the issues are here standing in the way of reconciling this. Why is it that the dems can push for their agenda and be lauded for their efforts but the republicans can't stand for theirs without being called out on the floor as hacks who won't compromise?

Flay both sides, I say. Both are equally culpable. But until the citizens of this country quite buying into the partisan BS that the senators/congressman and media are shoving down our throats, nothing is going to change.

If the dems care so much about getting this resolved why won't they cave and agree to the republican plan? Because they don't like it. Just like the republicans don't like the dems plan. Why not look at each plan from the angle of the citizens they are representing instead of from the angle the party is telling you to use? Both sides are sell-outs to their constituents.

At least there are some on the republican side who seem to be willing to compromise. All I hear from the dem side is, "We're getting what we want if only a few more republicans would vote in our favor."
 
399Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 09:21
GDP 1% growth, $14 trillion
Deficit $1.5 trillion
1.5 / 14 = 11%
GDP growth without deficit spending:
1% - 11% = -10%....that's negative 10%

We're in a depression now if the deficit spending goes away. We can deal with it now or deal with it later. Spending 40% more than you take in is not sustainable.

 
400Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 09:50
At least there are some on the republican side who seem to be willing to compromise. All I hear from the dem side is, "We're getting what we want if only a few more republicans would vote in our favor."

All I can conclude from this analysis is that you aren't following developments very closely.

The Republicans are held hostage by a small number of congressmen, unwilling to compromise among themselves, much less Democrats and the White House.

It's time for Obama to grow a pair, invoke the 14th amendment, and raise the ceiling.
 
401DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 11:15
For all you goldbugs out there -- Platinum is where it's at these days

I mean, it's pretty clearly ridiculous, but whatever.
 
402The Clap
      ID: 41613226
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 11:54
The debt negotiations have proven to me that this country as we know it is truly damned. The numbers I have seen are 2 trillion or less over 10 years. We will create 15 trillion in debt over the next ten years and we cannot agree on less than 1/7th of the total problem to cut. Of course the real answer is a combo of spending cuts, tax reform and economic growth but nobody in power right now is qualified to figure out how to grow the economy.
 
403Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 12:15
I never thought Rotoguru would have "The Clap".... *rimshot*

It's time for Obama to grow a pair, invoke the 14th amendment, and raise the ceiling.

My assumption all along has been that if Congress wouldn't raise it on their own that he would do that at the 11th hour. Let's hope by then its not too late.
 
405The Clap
      ID: 41613226
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 12:42
I like the name because its funny.

Obama should call their bluff. Make Boehner and Cantor tell the American people with a straight face that private jets and oil companies are worth defending but your kids education and energy research are not. Make the Paul Ryan types call these guys "job creators" on the record.

I want to hear about how overtaxed the rich are when GE pays nothing and Warren Buffett freely admits to paying less in taxes as a % than his secretary. Or when a company like Google uses offshore tax shelters to dodge liability.

My favorite is when they are called job creators. Take them through Ohio and Michigan. What jobs are created when they buy a company and lay off half the staff?

Obama waited too long to engage this problem. He should have taken this to the people long ago. He is on the right side here, but with the deadline four days away there is not enough time to make a convincing case to the people.

Neither side wants to do the real work of saving this country and that is why we are sinking.
 
406Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 12:49
this country as we know it is truly damned

According to this drama queen rhetoric, we're damned because we're in debt, not because we're dropping bombs on women and children in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Libya. And much of that debt has been incurred by government expenditures for health coverage for seniors, feeding and housing the most vulnerable in our society, as well as a trade imbalance that has sent manufacturing jobs south and overseas for decades.
Yet, most Americans still have a computer with internet access, cell phone, cable or sattelite TV, automobile, roof over their head, food on the table and several fantasy sports teams. If we in this country are truly damned, then how do we describe the situation for starving Somalians?
 
407Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 13:06
Clap brings up some good points constantly referring to job creators. You want to fix our economy, fix the job situation. This goes back to the discussion we had about the farm jobs in southern states opening up because of stricter immigration laws, but it goes well beyond that.

I'll use some anecdotal evidence from right here in my own back yard. My area has a very large representation of bio/pharma research companies. In the 90's 2 major ones moved into this area and created thousands (10,000+?) jobs between them. Not just minimum wage jobs but career type jobs. Jobs that support a family. Jobs that bring people into the area. And thsoe people needed a a place to stay. So side industries like construction boomed as houses were built. Whole towns that were simply sinking into depression were revitalized.

Of course these major international corporations got major tax breaks and tax cuts. They got all kinds of incentives. But on the whole, it made sense.

Fast forward to the 2000's. Those 2 companies now employ about 4000 between them at these 2 sites. The housing market has crashed and stagnated. Why? Because they are shipping these jobs out over seas. China, India, Japan.

But guess who still gets all those credits and tax breaks? Yep. There was absolutely no incentive for these companies to keep jobs here. Thats what our country as a whole is missing the boat on. From our federal government on down to local municipalities, we need to fix the job situation in our country.

Package to stimulate road construction, housing construction etc are just bandaids. We need to fix the long-term job situation in this country and construction/infrastructure type jobs will follow.

Incenticize corporations to keep jobs here. Retrain the way the American public thinks so that they are competitive on cost with foreign workers.

This needs to be done on top of fixing our tax system, more responsible spending, balancing the budget. In fact fixing the long-term job situation will make all these other areas easier to work with.

Thats why I say both sides are too busy playing partisan politics and both sides are to blame for the mess we are in. Both sides are too busy ignoring the American citizen they represent and too hung up on what their party wants.
 
408sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 13:31
...we need to fix the job situation in our country.

Agreed. And since I have twice posted evidence that unemployment shrinks under Dem control of Wash DC and rises under Rep control; and has done so for the past 80 years CONSISTENTLY; we can count on your support for the Democrats over the next few years...right?
 
409The Clap
      ID: 41613226
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 15:17
Yeah but when we get a Democrat president that can actually create jobs he goes and gets a blow job and we can't have that now can we?
 
410sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 15:20
2,500,000 more people with paychecks, and 1 guy gets a BJ. I got no prob with that.
 
411The Clap
      ID: 41613226
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 15:23
If he created 2.5 million jobs he SHOULD get a blow job from whatever consenting intern he wants.
 
412Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 15:27
we can count on your support for the Democrats over the next few years...right?

Keep playing partisan politics sarge and watch the problems keep on growing. Me, I'll use my head and evaluate each candidate and each idea on its own merits rather than its political affiliation.
 
413DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 15:35
1. Will have to talk to the wife and see if I can talk her into creating 2.5 million jobs tonight. I don't like my chances.

2. Re: 412 -- just remember, your choices are:

1. The guy who orders everything on the menu.
2. The guy who orders everything on the menu, but will skip out on the check.
3. The guy who will order the surf and turf for everyone, but then will whine about how it costs too much and send back all the steak, even though you're allergic to fish.
 
414sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 18:48
Khahan..I['m actual;ly NOT playing partiusan politics here.

The Dem proposal, cuts more spending than does the Rep proposal (according to the CBO) AND, includes a revenue hike. It addresses the budget, at an 83/17 rate of spending cuts to tax inxreases. The Republicans own study,m says an 85-15 ratio is most likely to succeed, yet they are REFUSING to consider ANY revenue hike. INCLUDING, the simple elimination of deductions, unless you then include additional spending cuts equal to the revenue increase.

The freshman Republicans in the House, are being GRADE A asshats. Plain and simple.
 
415The Clap
      ID: 41613226
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 20:59
I would like someone to explain to me why we should be cutting education, infrastructure and research when it is Social Security, Medicare, and defense bankrupting us.
 
416sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 21:06
In essence, the Republican party of today, is not all that far removed from the Confederacy of Pres Lincolns time. States Rights, and not Federalism; is their main battle cry.

 
417Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 21:35
Biggest sticking point for the GOP seems to be their aversion to republicanism.
 
418Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 10:24
Early word looking over the 'deal'.

Republicans got rolled.

They 'achieved' cuts over a ten year period meaning the 'cuts' will disappear never to be seen or heard from again in 2012.

They created a 'supercommittee' which is not restrained from raising taxes.

Epic fail...

...and one which can be used to separate the republicans from fiscally responsible voters. Expect an explosion of third party activism, a split conservative vote and four more years of creeping marxism.

 
419Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 10:31
And from what I can determine, it does nothing to separate out the stimulus explosion in spending from the normal baseline budget calculation. In otherwords it pretends the stimulus spending are normal expenses to be expected every year into the future and the new baseline for budgeting.
 
420Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 10:38
expect ... four more years

That's certainly true, but I don't think this showdown really tipped the scales any noticeable amount.
 
421sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 12:03
*IF*, there was any tipping of those scales, said tipping will be most visible in Republican defeats in House/Senate campaigns.
 
422walk
      ID: 348442710
      Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 15:46
NYT, 538, getting behind the debt deal #s

Interesting piece here. A lot of the cuts in spending are for defense/security (pentagon).
 
423Seattle Zen
      ID: 55723114
      Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 15:49
After reading this excellent article by Nate Silver in his 538 blog at NYTimes, I don't feel quite as bad.
First, the timing: the cuts are heavily back-loaded, so the deal is unlikely to have much direct effect on the economy in 2012.

The spending cuts will proceed in two stages. There is an initial round of about $1 trillion in cuts, which will be locked in place when (and if) the deal is signed by the president. Then there is an additional $1.5 trillion in cuts, which will go into effect if Congress is unable to agree to the recommendations of a bipartisan commission (or “Super Congress”) by the end of the year.

The first round of cuts include “only” about $22 billion in reductions in 2012 spending — the same as the bill proposed last week by Representative John A. Boehner, which provided some of the outlines for this deal. That would reduce 2012 G.D.P. by just 0.1 percent, other factors being equal.

The second and larger round of cuts, according to the White House’s summary of the deal, would not include any reductions to the fiscal year 2012 budget. Instead, those cuts would kick in during 2013 and last through 2022.

Where the deal may create more problems is in 2013 and 2014. The economy may not be fully healthy by then — global financial crises often take 5 years or more to recover from. But the austerity measures will really start to kick in. Whichever party has a strong 2012 could therefore have a rough 2014.

Of course, whichever party was elected in 2012 could begin charting its own course for fiscal policy in 2013... {Speaker Pelosi may pop the hood on this whole "deal" in 2013 and make some serious changes} The deal employs some mechanisms to create inertia behind the cuts — in particular, caps on discretionary spending — but fundamentally it is very difficult to bind the actions of a future Congress.

But given that Democrats were willing to accede to the constraints demanded by Republicans, they were able to exert a lot of control over the substance of the cuts. In particular, the first round of cuts will include $350 billion in defense savings, while the second round would include between $500 and $600 billion in defense cuts if no bipartisan agreement is reached.

There are some semantic distinctions to heed here — for instance, between defense cuts and “security” cuts. But the bottom line is that the deal will take a big bite out of the Pentagon’s budget. Close to half of the overall cuts, not counting interest savings, will come from defense and related areas.

This has two major implications. The first is simply that if you’re scoring the deal as a Democrat, it makes the cuts less painful. In fact, if you’re a Democrat (or a libertarian) who is not just indifferent toward defense cuts but actually in favor of them, you might even regard the cuts to defense spending as a “win,” making up for the “loss” incurred from cuts to other types of discretionary spending.

The other implication comes from the effect this might have on the bipartisan panel. If its recommendations are not agreed to — or if it can’t come to an agreement in the first place — $1.5 trillion in cuts would be triggered, half of which would come from defense.

If you’re a Democrat and you must accede to $1.5 trillion in cuts — and that’s literally the situation that Democrats will find themselves in if the deal passes through Congress — it’s going to be hard to do better than this $1.5 trillion in cuts. They are very heavily loaded with defense cuts, while containing few changes to entitlement programs or to programs which benefit the poor.

So Democrats will have very little incentive to vote for the panel’s recommendations unless they include tax increases. Does that mean that Republicans will agree to tax increases? Perhaps the Republicans on the committee will consider them — but it is unlikely that rank-and-file in the House will give their sign-off.

In other words, this probably leads us to a stalemate: Democrats cannot do much better unless there are tax increases, and Republicans will not be eager to raise taxes. So the automatic cuts embodied in the trigger are quite likely to go into effect — and those are the sorts of cuts that Democrats, not Republicans, would prefer to make to the budget.


 
424walk
      ID: 348442710
      Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 15:52
I think we posted it at the same time, SZ. Jinx!
 
425Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 11:42
Debt ceiling debacle cost the US about $1.7 billion

Nice job, "Conservatives."
 
426sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 12:05
from your link PD:

The cost of that uncertainty for the U.S. Treasury (and consequently U.S. taxpayers) will likely grow on Tuesday, when the government is scheduled to auction $23 billion in one-month Treasury bills.

They're currently yielding 0.14%, up from 0.01% two weeks ago. If that increase holds it would cost taxpayers an additional $249 million in interest.


That's a 1400% INCREASE in rate, in 14 days.

Thank-you fiscally conservative House members.
 
427Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 12:08
Dems waste that much every nanosecond.
 
428Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 12:13
Of course they do. Now back to your comic books.
 
429sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 12:22
Republican House members, held firm and refused to negotiate on the line REQUIRING the Balanced Budget Amendment be passed BEFORE any further DC increase. (They offered a VERY short term increase in the meantime.) That position on thier part, was not going to happen, with Dems in control of the Senate. House members knew this, you knew this, we ALL knew this. Still the freshman House Republicans held to an untennable position.

That holding, allowed/cause interest paid by the govt to RISE 14 fold, in 14 days. THAT, is the very definition of a windfall. (on the investors side, and major expense on the payors side.) An expense, caused 100%, by the doomed (and known to BE doomed), actions of a very few persons. 80 some people, just caused that rate hike.
 
430Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 13:42
you mean coloring books, PD.
 
431Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 13:54
No, I mean comic books. It seems to be where the Right gets its economic information from these days.

cost updated, btw: Only $17 million.
 
432Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 15:00
Republican House members, held firm and refused to negotiate on the line REQUIRING the Balanced Budget Amendment be passed BEFORE any further DC increase.

Or


Democratic house members held firm against requiring the Balanced Budget Amendment be passed before further DC increase.


See how that works Sarge? This goes right back to what I was stating a few days ago. Blame all you want, but its on both sides. The balanced budget amendment was important to them. They felt it was necessary.


That position on thier part, was not going to happen, with Dems in control of the Senate. House members knew this, you knew this, we ALL knew this. Still the freshman House Republicans held to an untennable position.


or

That position on the dems part was a strongarm tactic knowing they'd have the backing of the Senate. They could sit back and force the republicans to abandon a position they campaigned on.



Now, don't get me wrong. As much as I would like to see a balanced budget every year I don't think its feasible and should not be legally mandated. I'm not necessarily defending the republican positions as I am defending them against these ridiculous partisan attacks and trying to make people see their own partisanship is getting in the way of the big picture.

Wake up and recognize that as long as you want to play the blame game, that is all that will be accomplished. I said it before and I'll say it again Sarge - keep playing partisan politics and watch the problems keep growing. You are just as guilty of it on the dem side as boldwin is on the rep side (though he chooses to blindly defend more radical, extremist positions than you do).

But more importantly than you, me or any armchair politico on a message board, we need our senators and congressmen to wake up and realize they represent US, not their parties. They need to run our country, not their campaign machine. Its our job as citizens to remind them of this. So please start doing that. Get them to represent you. Thats all I'm trying to do.
 
433Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 17:50
Putting positive spin on things:
And so we have the best of both worlds politically: a deal that leaves the Tea Party unsatisfied and therefore fired up for the next battles and election cycle, and a demoralized liberal base that can’t come to grips with the fact that socialism is over because we’ve run out of other people’s money. - Steven Hayward
Too many anti-americans with their hands on too many levers of power to let me be that optimistic, but a fun take on a bleak situation. They don't really ever come to that realization until every last golden goose is dead.
 
434Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 18:04
Ah, a slight majority of "tea party" clowns voted for this, even though they claimed that they would not ever vote to raise the debt ceiling. Don't think there is much fire in those bellies.
 
435Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 18:11
Oaths and principles meeting Sophie's Choice.
 
436Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 18:15
reality sucks for the loons.
 
437Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 20:36
Didn't take long for them to start eating their own.
 
438sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 20:55
432...I agree that rhetoric alone, is pointless. But the Reps are the one who insisted on holding FIR something, they (and all of us), knew damn good and well they could not get. That made THEUR contention unreasonable, as it was absolutely unattainable.

Yes, you could spin it as the Dems holding against something, but they were hopldiong against something they COULD block. The Reps, were holding FOR something, they could NOT get.

There is a significanmt difference, in thereby placing rightful blame, for the bottleneck.
 
439Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 17:52
Re 432 - Khahan

Paul Krugman and I disagree with you, Khahan.
The facts of the crisis over the debt ceiling aren’t complicated. Republicans have, in effect, taken America hostage, threatening to undermine the economy and disrupt the essential business of government unless they get policy concessions they would never have been able to enact through legislation. And Democrats — who would have been justified in rejecting this extortion altogether — have, in fact, gone a long way toward meeting those Republican demands.

As I said, it’s not complicated. Yet many people in the news media apparently can’t bring themselves to acknowledge this simple reality. News reports portray the parties as equally intransigent; pundits fantasize about some kind of “centrist” uprising, as if the problem was too much partisanship on both sides.

Some of us have long complained about the cult of “balance,” the insistence on portraying both parties as equally wrong and equally at fault on any issue, never mind the facts. I joked long ago that if one party declared that the earth was flat, the headlines would read “Views Differ on Shape of Planet.” But would that cult still rule in a situation as stark as the one we now face, in which one party is clearly engaged in blackmail and the other is dickering over the size of the ransom?

The answer, it turns out, is yes. And this is no laughing matter: The cult of balance has played an important role in bringing us to the edge of disaster. For when reporting on political disputes always implies that both sides are to blame, there is no penalty for extremism. Voters won’t punish you for outrageous behavior if all they ever hear is that both sides are at fault.

I will not "agree to disagree" on this point. The Republicans are ridiculous.
 
440Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 18:41
Yeah, well you would think that holding the line on defense spending, social spending and taxes was vile intransigence...

...while insisting on ever increasing social spending no matter how big the hole we dig is reasonable.

So in your view only one side is being unreasonable and intransigent.

That's not purely biased partisanship on your part. Nooooo.
 
441sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 19:31
No it isnt B. As the popuylation grows, as thge economy stagnates, as the middle class gets squeezed even while the rich get richer and richer; it is NOT partisan to combat social cuts. Its intelligent.
 
442Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 22:48
Remind me how smart it is the day China refuses to loan our money back to us.
 
443B7 on vacation
      ID: 55753321
      Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 22:54
The solution to too much debt is not more debt. Big win for the Mooch Generation. Not so good for the next generation.
 
444Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 03, 2011, 23:31
Scaling back government spending right now would be a disaster for this economy--our "1937 moment."

We should be far more focused on jobs.
 
445sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 00:11
The Right it seems, insists on focusing on the WRONG problem. Yes, the debt is an issue needing to be addressed. However unless/until we solve the employment crisis, things can only get worse.

Unemployment only goes so far. That runs out, family loses its home, downward spiral which had been underway, is now in full blown run-away locomtove mode.

OTH, we put people to work, they stop drawing UE, start paying taxes...double benefit top the society.

They feel more confident, and spend more which in turn drives the economy forward., Another win for the society.

Put enough to work that we end the recession,. and viola! Revenues are up as payrolls rise; benefit payments are down as foewer draw UE, medicare, food stamps, etc etc etc. ANother BIG win for society.

So Republicans...PLEASE..pull your partisan heads out of your partisan asses and address the REAL problem and not the syptom...employment. Which FTR it has already been proven, give the wealthy tax breaks and they do NOT create jobs, they just hoard more cash. So get off that soap box too.
 
446Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 01:18
The real problem is that the government is deliberately creating uncertainty and a hostile environment to employers which will keep the recession in high gear until business believes they can make a profit by expanding.

Right now they have to make sure they have enuff to cover all the losses to Robbinhood. A trip thru Sherwood Forest is looking awful expensive and dangerous atm.
 
447Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 01:20
The only job liberals don't worry about a hostile work environment: Investing aka job creating.
 
448Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 01:35
If your credit cards are nearing their limit and you've got more money going out than coming in - when your roof suddenly starts severely leaking, you can do one of two things:

Try to get a credit increase to fix the roof. You'll have dealt with your most pressing issue and can hope that better times ahead will make your necessary sacrifices easier to deal with.

Or decide here and now that you're going to do something about your debt problem, tell grandma to decide between shelter or medical care, tell your kids to figure out college tuition for themselves and start looking for an economically priced one-bedroom to rent in case nobody wants to buy a house with a caved in roof for more than you still owe on it. You'll sacrifice the life you've spent your built and been maintaining and cut off and irreparably harm to the lives of people who relied on your support, but you'll have your finances in order much sooner and be on a path to rebuilding an maybe one day be able to be there your grandkids.
 
449Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 01:38
The real problem is that the government is deliberately creating uncertainty and a hostile environment

You're right--the House GOP seems intent upon this. The latest salvo against the FAA is only the most recent example.
 
450Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 01:42
Some people ignore the debt because they wish to believe there is an unlimited supply of rich people money out there to milk if we just had enuff greed or desperation.

Some people who know the numbers have other unstated reasons for ignoring the problem.
"Ignoring the foreign component, or looking at the world as a whole, the overall level of debt makes no difference to aggregate net worth — one person’s liability is another person’s asset."
- (Paul Krugman and Gauti B. Eggertsson, 2010, pp. 2-3)

Of course, this gives us a clear warning with regards to how The Masters of the Universe are going to try to fix the problem. Big it up and centralize it. Since the U.S. inability to pay back its foreign debt is becoming increasingly obvious, the answer will be to "look at the world as a whole", or convert a national economy into a global one in which the national debt no longer counts because "one person's liability is another person's asset". As long as the macro accounting all balances, how could there possibly be any problem? And since the European Union has shown that the stresses of monetary union cannot survive without political union to enforce austerity programs and forced transnational redistributions, this means global governance will be a necessary, indeed integral, part of the mainstream economic program. [aka 'program of the Paul Krugman's of the world' - B]

Because, after all, forcibly installing a one-world government makes so much more sense than simply replacing your inoperative and outdated economic model with one that actually works!
That's why Paul Krugman is so happy to push us over the brink.
 
451Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 08:57
Some people are happy to express newly-found concern over the debt in order to try to punish Obama politically.

Our #1 problem in this country is not debt, it is jobs. Trying to solve our debt "crisis" will only make our jobs problem worse if done so immediately.

Since the GOP has been very clear it is happy to tank the country in order to hurt Obama politically I'm afraid their exaggerated claims about the debt simply come off as Chicken Little peeps from a group who consistently negotiate in bad faith.
 
452biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 09:49
And if we improve our jobs problem, the debt problem will improve by default.

So which should we be focusing on?
 
453Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 10:36
Some people are happy to express newly-found concern over the debt in order to try to punish Obama politically. - PD

When you start out with that whopper how do you expect to be taken seriously?

The party of smaller government, 'the government isn't the solution to the problem, the government is the problem' didn't just embrace those principles the day Obama got elected.

Now if the GOP could only convince the well financed neocons and RINO's they could have a majority in government for preventing the bankruptcy and dissolution of the USA.
 
454Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 10:40
I saw very, very few members of the GOP express any concern over government spending during the Bush administration. Ron Paul, perhaps.

Suddenly they see the light when Obama is elected, at the very same time cutting off government spending will be the worst thing for this economy?

A double dip recession is assured if the Tea Party dream of shutting down the government happens.

You folks clearly have different goals than the majority of Americans. If you aren't working to save and create jobs, you aren't part of the solution at all.
 
455Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 10:42
So which should we be focusing on?

The kind of jobs that don't run out when the government runs out of other people's money.

Not building bike trail make-work projects for the government.

Not jobs at Acorn.

Jobs in the private sector created by businesses free to make a profit.

 
456Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 10:49
Industry isn't going to do crap if the economy sputters because there is no government spending right now.

This is like refusing the medicine because you don't like needles.

Your prescription for a double dip recession is rejected, sir.
 
457Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 11:00
PD

I saw very, very few members of the GOP express any concern over government spending during the Bush administration.

The don't post at TPM or DailyKOS. And where they do post you heard that every day.
 
458Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 11:05
Your double-dip recession will never happen because the first one never left us. It will just keep getting worse until the government boot comes off the neck of business.

It would be helpful if we could show S&P and Moody's that there was a plan in place to permanently limit government sending. But you seem to think they are looking for a trendline of exponential spending growth.

They liked the subprime 'securities' well enuff. Maybe you can fool them again.
 
459sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 11:57
re 453...When you start out with that whopper how do you expect to be taken seriously?


Daman fine question B. So how DZO you expect to be taken seriously?

As I said in 445 above and bili repeated...solve the jobs crisis (the REAL crisis) and you decrease the load upon Unemployment, Food Stamps, Medicaid, and various other social programs. You at the same time, increase revenue as payrolls rise (meaning personal income climbs) and thus tax revenue rises.

Solve the jobs issue, and the debt issue while still substantial, begins moving in the right direction BY ITSELF. THEN, we can address how to remedy the national debt.

You, like the Tea Party, are LOCKED on the wrong problem. Use a little logic, a little common sense, a little cognitive reasoning. Once you do that, I'll say "welcome to the enlightened left".
 
460Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 13:40
Since government doesn't create productive jobs, they create leeches on the economy, and since only the private sector produces jobs that the economy needs to be healthy, why would I focus on Obama growing the public sector? He has no intention of growing private sector jobs. He wants to transfer wealth to the public sector.

And why would I wait for the impossible. Government creating jobs?

And why would I expect the biggest wet blanket job creators have ever suffered thru, to be able to grow jobs even if the government could do such a thing?
 
461biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 13:54
What in living fcuk are you babbling about?

Educating our children isn't productive?

Keeping our communities safe isn't productive?

Building the roads you so worship isn't productive?

Saving your ass from a heart attack isn't productive? (well...)

Maintaining and improving the power grid isn't productive?

Regulating and maintaining a fair and competitive economic playing field isn't productive?

On and on their are productive, and vital government roles that must be carried out to maintain our way of life and pave the way for capitalism and our way of life to flourish. You live in some pre- teen randian fantasy land where all the capitalists play nice and all the kiddies are taught by altruistic nuns who eat dirt for breakfast.

Go take a look out the window dude. There is an actual ral world out there.
 
463sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 14:11
B..look at the facts. Private sector profits (major corporate profits) are UP. Yet, they are not hiring. Why? They are hoarding that cash, in the hands of a select few. The many, the hundreds of thoiusands who USED to have jobs there, are the ones you your ilk are so happy to throw under the bus.

 
464Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 15:26
Your chatting to a guy who believes Obama raised taxes, sarge. I don't think facts are gonna sway him anymore--the Tea (tastes like Kool Aid!) is in him.
 
478Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 10:47
Tea Party support drops like stone.
Forty percent of those polled this week characterized their view as “not favorable,” compared with 18 percent in the first poll. The debate over the debt ceiling gave people a more concrete picture: Tea Party groups and members of the Tea Party caucus in the House and Senate — many of them elected in the Republican sweep of 2010 — insisted that they would not raise the debt ceiling under any circumstances. Members of the American public, meanwhile, including Tea Party supporters, were telling pollsters that they wanted compromise, not inflexibility.

Tea Party groups and lawmakers made debt reduction their priority, but many Americans said creating jobs was more important. And while many Republicans, influenced by the Tea Party, insisted that they would not allow any increases in tax revenue, a majority of Americans said debt reduction had to include higher taxes as well as lower spending.

This just in... Americans think Congress sucks, it's at an all-time high!
The debate over raising the debt ceiling, which brought the nation to the brink of default, has sent disapproval of Congress to its highest level on record and left most Americans saying that creating jobs should now take priority over cutting spending, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News Poll. A record 82 percent of Americans now disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job — the most since The Times first began asking the question in 1977, and even more than after another political stalemate led to a shutdown of the federal government in 1995.

More than four out of five people surveyed said that the recent debt-ceiling debate was more about gaining political advantage than about doing what is best for the country. Nearly three-quarters said that the debate had harmed the image of the United States in the world.

Republicans in Congress shoulder more of the blame for the difficulties in reaching a debt-ceiling agreement than President Obama and the Democrats, the poll found.

The Republicans compromised too little, a majority of those polled said. All told, 72 percent disapproved of the way Republicans in Congress handled the negotiations, while 66 percent disapproved of the way Democrats in Congress handled negotiations.

Did it really take Americans that long to realize just how preposterous this group of House Republicans really are? I guess better late than never. Back to the back bench in 2013, minority leader Boehner.
 
479Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 11:06
bili

Educating our children isn't productive?

Lowering the teacher to student ratio, the only 'reform' liberals seem to be interested isn't productive. Raising the administrator/teacher ratio above one isn't productive.

Keeping our communities safe isn't productive?

Gotta love law and order liberals. When you can find one.

Building the roads you so worship isn't productive?

Exceptions don't negate the rule.

Saving your ass from a heart attack isn't productive? (well...)

Where they've tried central planned healthcare you are lucky to get a sterile needle, let alone good healthcare.

Maintaining and improving the power grid isn't productive?

Maybe if we weren't deliberately bankrupting the coal power producers and coal industries and squelching oil production and nuclear power, they could provide power without government 'help'.
 
480biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 11:10
As far a I can tell, you are simply whining about details, but conceding the overarching point.

Call me when you have an argument to bring to the table instead of childish tantrums.
 
481Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 11:11
But wait, there's more...
Sixty-three percent of those polled said that they supported raising taxes on households that earn more than $250,000 a year, as Mr. Obama has sought to do — including majorities of Democrats (80 percent), independents (61 percent) and Republicans (52 percent).

Yes, even a majority of Republicans support the end of the Bush tax cuts. What, a TAX INCREASE?! Yes, Martha, a tax increase.
But by a ratio of more than two to one, Americans said that creating jobs should be a higher priority than spending cuts.

That ratio is closer to 57/3 on these boards, but the average American is coming around...
The president’s overall job approval rating remained relatively stable, with 48 percent approving of the way he handles his job as president and 47 percent disapproving — down from the bump up he received in the spring after the killing of Osama bin Laden, but in line with how he has been viewed for nearly a year. By contrast, Speaker John A. Boehner, an Ohio Republican, saw his disapproval rating shoot up 16 points since April: 57 percent of those polled now disapprove of the way he is handling his job, while only 30 percent approve.

Americans said that they trusted Mr. Obama to make the right decisions about the economy more than the Republicans in Congress, by 47 percent to 33 percent. And they were still more likely to blame President George W. Bush for the bulk of the nation’s deficit: 44 percent said that the deficit was mostly caused by the Bush administration, 15 percent said it was mostly caused by the Obama administration and 15 percent blamed Congress.

These poll results read like a recipe and the title of this dish is: Four More Years. It's the reason that only wackos like Bachmann, Cain, and Santorum are running and not guys like Chris Christie and Scott Brown.
 
486Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 12:19
Here's a link to the full NYT/CBS poll. Have at it.
 
487Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 12:35
Stanley Greenberg, the smartest, most reality based liberal political expert I know, and the only one I make an appointment read, has some comments on that NYT piece.
 
488sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 12:50
And what he says is true B, but it holds equally true for the Republicans as well. For ex, this line:

The weak point is the electoral process. The administrative state and its professional managers don’t sit in a vacuum. Elected politicians write the laws that the regulatory agencies enforce. Those politicians like to get re-elected. They depend on the campaign contributions the fat cats can give; that money power means that the state becomes the catspaw of the greedy few rather than the honest guardian of the toiling millions.

is the crux of what he says. How though, does it not apply to BOTH parties, equally? Seems to me to be a piece ALL of Washington best heed, as it would foretell a coming revolution more than it is a condemnation of a ideologic principle.
 
489Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 12:53
Here's how it doesn't apply equally to both parties.

Republicans don't tout government as the solution. They, like the voters, consider it the problem.
 
490Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 12:56
Well there is also William Galston. I am almost afraid to tell you guys about them. No sense giving you any real ammunition.
 
491Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 13:03
They, like the voters, consider it the problem.

Putting aside your projection onto the voters, the way that the GOP feels about government doesn't effect the way that the electoral process effects them.

Just one example: The members of the Tea Party Caucus in the House voted 32-28 to raise the debt ceiling, despite clearly saying there was no way in hell they would ever do so.

Another: The GOP says they want to get rid of earmarks, and yet seemingly can't stop themselves from pursuing them.
 
492Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 13:08
It's a corrupting process that forces you to make a lot of deals with the devil. Glad you noticed.

Nevertheless public disenchantment with government hits dems hardest because that's all they have to sell is government strong-arming. They don't actually believe in most cases the process could run better without them.
 
493Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 13:14
Well, Dems also can draw upon a lot of examples of government doing good. Clean water, for example. A national highway system. Better health. Fairness in the courts. Etc etc.

You might believe deep down that the Clean Water Act and the Affordable Care Act are simply examples of government strong-arming. But most people out there simply do not.

 
494Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 13:29
The snail darter and the fine for being too poor to buy insurance are less popular than you imagine.
 
495sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 13:33
489 TOTALLY ignores my question, while purporting to answer it.

When I asked, "How does it NOYT apply equally to both partiues?". I am asking B, how the sentiment set forth in the italicized quote, does not apply erqually to both parties. BOTH, Rep and Dem, at the Federal level, are largely bought and paid for BY corporate interests. Or do you deny, that Reps, like Dems, will "sell their souls" for campaign funding?
 
496Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 18:23
More often than not.
 
497Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 18:28
Too many posts at cross-purposes. I am talking about the theme Stan Greenberg is developing. Don't know why you fixated on another point.

Seriously understand that Greenberg is as committed a 'progressive' hard lefty as you will ever find and I did not link to a discussion of his piece just to jab lefties. These are just cold hard facts he's describing, not something subjective we can disagree on.
 
498sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 18:34
fixated on another proint? That point you accuse me of fixating upon, is the very crux of everything he is saying. Big money has BOUGHT American Politics.

Why am I surprised, you deny the truth of it applying to Republicans as well as Democrats? Need a few reminders?
 
499Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 22:44
Nooo, he's trying to figure out why the Dem siren song of bigger government isn't resonating with the public anymore.

Thus the give-away title, 'Why Voters Tune Out Democrats'.

 
500Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 23:02
Here is the theme:
But a crisis of government legitimacy is a crisis of liberalism. It doesn’t hurt Republicans. If government is seen as useless, what is the point of electing Democrats who aim to use government to advance some public end?
If fatcats owning both parties was his theme his conclusion would have been that public cynicism cuts both parties equally.
 
501sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 23:10
*knock knock knock&* amybody home?

There are two viable options come election time B. Dem or Rep. The current meme hurtts Dems yes, but the crux of the problem, holds true on both counts.


Could you PLEASE, just ONCE...be intellectually honest?
 
502Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Fri, Aug 05, 2011, 23:47
Could you PLEASE, just ONCE...be intellectually honest?

I think I can speak for everyone when I say I'd settle for either of those 2 elements.
 
503Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 00:03
While Baldwin and those on the Right consider becoming intellectual honest, S&P downgrades US debt. This was done, in part, because of the GOP continuing to refuse to consider revenue increases, as well as their willingness to hold the threat of default as a "political bargaining chip in the debate over fiscal policy."
 
504sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 00:20
I'm curious how the Republicans will frame the reductions in defense. Following Reagans victory over the Warsaw Pact via the copld war, defense cuts were touted as a 'peace dividend'. Wonder now, how they will frame what is essentially the same thing, in a negative light, after framing it previously as a positive.

Oh wait...they have been flip-flopping for something then against it, soon as Obama comes out and endorses 'it'. Nebbermind.
 
505Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 00:54
PD

Can you read minds? Maybe it just suddenly dawned on them along with most of America that, 'Hey, that debt's so large we aint never gonna pay that off.'.
 
506Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 00:56
Can you read minds?

No, but I can read links. Maybe you should click on the link yourself and read exactly what they said about the downgrade.
 
507Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 00:58
Sarge#504

I would think the intellectually honest spin on defense cuts would be, 'Hey, we are involved in 2.5 wars and they forced us to cut defense'.
 
508Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 01:14
Waste fraud and abuse watch:

Hey I know a rich guy pulling a scam on Uncle Sam.



First secret service protectee to ever charge the Secret Service for staying on their property.

Biden will charge the secret service $66K over the rest of this administration for using this gatehouse to protect him.

They can save some cash and come guard me for a lot cheaper.
 
509sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 01:23
As Paul Harvey would say; "and now, for the REST of the story..."

Jean Biden, the vice president's mother, lived at the cottage until she died in January 2010. After her death, Biden offered to rent it to the Secret Service, which at the time was renting an apartment nearby for agents protecting the vice president's home, Donovan said.
The agency declined, and a private tenant rented the cottage, Donovan said. Neither Biden spokeswoman Kendra Barkoff nor Donovan said they knew the identity of the former tenant.
After nine months to a year, the tenant left, according to Donovan. At that point, the Secret Service approached Biden about renting it, Donovan said. Leasing the house was a unique opportunity for the agents to more efficiently protect Biden and the property, he added.
Biden is charging the agency the same amount he got from the previous tenant, but the Secret Service is paying $350 more a month than it was for its previous location, Donovan said.


So, the agency was already paying rent, Biden was already renting the cottage. No story here folks, move along. Just one more case, of B trying to make something evil for Dems, out of nothing at all.
 
510sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 01:36
really B, if thats all you got...you got nuthin at all.
 
511Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 05:13
"I do think at a certain point you've made enough money"

Especially when you are the guy who has promised to eliminate waste fraud and abuse.
 
512sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 11:01
The other factor yuo are conveniently ignoring, is that the SS approached Biden. THEY, went to him about the rental.

So just what IS your problem B? Cant stand the thought of a Liberal engaging in some capitalism?
 
513bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 13:11
If Biden would have been politically correct, he would have refused the Secret Service request on the grounds that the right wing main stream media would start sniveling, claiming that he was charging them to protect him.
 
514sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 13:16
psssst...bibA? The rightwing media cant START sniveling. They've BEEN sniveling for years now.
 
515Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 19:32
 
516Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 22:27
Let us not forget that Bush's spending was 'compassionate conservatism' that conservatives didn't want any part of. That was Bush trying to win over liberals. [or in my book that was a neocon showing his inner Trotsky]
After beginning with a Clinton-era surplus in 2001, the Bush administration ran up deficits of $158 billion in 2002; $378 billion in 2003; and $413 billion in 2004. Then, with revenues pouring in, the deficits began to fall: $318 billion in 2005; $248 billion in 2006; and $161 billion in 2007. That 2007 deficit, with the tax cuts in effect, was one-tenth of today’s $1.6 trillion deficit.

Deficits went up in 2008 with the beginning of the economic downturn — and, not coincidentally, with the first full year of a Democratic House and Senate. - Byron York via Instapundit
----------
People complained about Bush’s spending, but if we could get back to the Bush-era spending and deficits now it would look like a triumph of fiscal responsibility — and Democrats would complain of “austerity.” - Glenn Reynolds
------------
The bond-rating houses kept saying all along that they weren’t worried about the debt ceiling not being increased. Rather, they were worried about the long-term prospects of the U.S. government paying back $15-plus trillion, which is where our national debt (both publicly held and obligated to trust funds) will be shortly.

Because last weekend’s deal didn’t cut spending deeply enough, S&P has just downgraded us. We’ll see just how disastrous this becomes — some are arguing it’s not such a big deal — but consider this the market’s revenge for TARP and the stimulus package. You run up the debt, Mr. President, you lose your good credit. - DAVID FREDDOiSO via Instapundit
 
517Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 22:34
To emphasize...'That 2007 deficit, with the tax cuts in effect, was one-tenth of today’s $1.6 trillion deficit.

So no, Bush's tax cuts didn't do the blue in that graph, and lest anyone miss the fact, the blue doesn't blow up during Bush's term, two wars and Bush's tax cuts combined.
 
518sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 22:56
Maybe you need to learn to read the graph. The deficit therein, is expressed as a percentage of GDP, not nickels and dimes.
 
519Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 23:15
Sarge - This wrests the deficit detonator away from Obama how exactly?
--------
In case you all missed it, China has told the USA recently that they need to cool both military and social welfare.

When communist countries tell you you are redistributing too much wealth...I'm just sayin'.
 
520sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 06, 2011, 23:24
The only redistribution of wealth which has occured over the past 11 or so years; is TO the pockets of the rich. Or have you TRULY gone t-totally fkn blind?
 
521Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 06:00
That should make the primary challenge Obama faces go swimmingly then.

Seriously tho, Obama is the most wealth redistributing president [by disposition at the very least] ever and he had Dems in control of both sides of congress with leaders in both sides being from the left end of the spectrum in the Dem party. Do you really believe he was such a complete and utter failure as a wealth redistributer?
 
522Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 06:23
Just saying things on message boards doesn't make them true. Haven't the last 10 years taught you anything? If you could find a few metrics of income equality growing over the past several years and that the trend started after Obama took office, that'd be great. Else, please stop pretending like your accusations have legitimacy.
 
523Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 09:02
the most wealth redistributing president

What the hell does this mean?
 
524Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 10:44
He openly endorses wealth redistribution. He's even endorsed wealth confiscation as an end in itself.
 
525Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 11:34
“[T]he rating was motivated by a number of factors,” Chambers said. “One was the political gridlock in Washington, which makes us think it is going to be difficult for elected officials to put the fiscal profile of the U.S. government on a long-term sustainable path. And part of it was because of the fiscal path itself — debt-to-GDP at the all-in level, the states and local governments and federal governments in that of liquid assets is about 75 percent of GDP. And that’s going to trend up. That’s going to trend up over the next decade unless we get additional fiscal measures than what we got on the table now.”

Chambers said had the U.S. government managed to find $4 trillion in cuts, versus just the $2 trillion currently on the table with the latest agreement, it could have staved off a downgrade from the ratings agency. He also explained the “negative outlook” label S&P had assigned to the United States.

“The negative outlook speaks to a six-to-24 month time frame. The administration is looking for additional measures on top of the $2.1–$2.4 trillion that we have with this current agreement — the Budget Control Act of 2011,” S&P Sovereign Ratings Committee Managing Director John Chambers explained the rating agency’s decision and what factors played a role.
So in other words, if [the media had allowed] the Tea party congressional majority got their way and forced enuff cuts this downgrade would have been avoided. But instead gridlock prevented reaching enuff cuts and looks likely to prevent enuff cuts in the future thus necessitating even further downgrades in the credit rating.
 
526Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 12:14
He's even endorsed wealth confiscation as an end in itself.

Given your bias toward making up crap, or re-defining words to match your politics (rather than allowing reality to dictate it), you'll understand that I'll need specific non-partisan proof here.

Otherwise we'll just put it into the expanding file for you...

So in other words,

Yes, those are other words. Just not ones that map to what actually happened.

From the S&P release:

Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario now assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012, remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act.

Let's be clear here: The Tea Party was willing to put "economic train wreck" on the table. As a result, we're seeing some economic damage their actions did.

To insist that if the party willing to wreck the economy had only gotten their way that things were fine is the opposite of reality.
 
527sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 12:30
re 525; Reminding me more and more of AVATAR. That line where Jake shows up at the lab and the Doc pretty much dismisses him. The Lab assistant tells him top be back at "0800 hours and try to use big words". DOesnt so much matter of what you are saying has any merit eh B? Long as it SOUNDS impressive.

Had the Bush Tax Cuts (HUGE spending program, entitlement if you will, to a group CLEARLY not in need of any govt handouts) been allowed to expire, there would have been no downgrade in the credit rating. Simple.
 
528Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 12:34
What a crock. The President proposed $4t in reduction multiple times.

And there is no tea party congressional majority. There is a minority large enough to prevent the majority non-ideologue Republicans in the House from arriving at a compromise that could have satisfied S&P.

The gridlock Chambers refers to is also the responsibility of that same minority, an extremist version of a greater political culture which already resents political compromise, and which posited that raising the debt ceiling at all was the massive compromise on their part, and the only concession they were willing to make.

The inevitable result of their relentless ideological stand made on the debt ceiling vote was exactly what happened. They held hostage both the AAA rating and avoidance of default. And they killed the former before releasing the latter.
 
529Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 17:59
What a crock.

Yeah, I only quoted the words of the director of the S&P committee which made the downgrade. What a crock. What does he know?
 
530Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 18:02
I wasn't challenging Chambers. The crock is your ridiculous interpretation of what he said.
 
531Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 18:02
That should be clear enough to anyone who got past the first sentence of my post.
 
532Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 19:07
How S&P grades actual Tea Party policies when implemented. You know, lowering taxes, lowering debt.
 
533Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 19:18
Apples and oranges. S&P told us why they downgraded this particular debt. Casting about in the hopes of finding a reason opposite of what they said is just desperate.

Each debt is graded on its own terms.
 
534Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 19:19
Saskatchewan's corporate income tax is levied as a percentage of the share of a corporation's taxable income that is allocated to the Province. Saskatchewan's general tax rate on corporate taxable income was reduced to 12 per cent effective July 1, 2008.

Saskatchewan small businesses, defined as Canadian-controlled private corporations, pay a reduced rate (commonly known as the small business rate) on eligible business income. This rate will decline from 4.5 per cent to 2.0 per cent as of July 1, 2011.
Good stuff, eh S&P? Get rid of the business wet blanket!
 
535Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 19:37
The first thing he cited was gridlock in DC. I'm sure B blames Semate Dems and Obama for that but the fact of the matter is that avoiding gridlock requires compromise and that the hard right's refusal to do so was on full display throughout the debt ceiling debate. The nutbaggers (you know, the side that said default sounds like a feature of this debate, not a bug) weren't even willing to compromise with their own party.

You can't publicly lament the concept of legislative compromise, reletlessly follow through on that principe, and then disown Chambers' citation of gridlock as a reason for the downgrade.

You also can't claim that only one side proposed the necessary debt reduction to stave off the downgrade.
 
536Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 20:05
You also can't claim that only one side proposed the necessary debt reduction to stave off the downgrade. - MITH

Ok, what was the actual plan Obama offered and how did the CBO score it?

Oh, that's right, they can't score the vague offers contained in a speech. To cut spending in the next administration. There's change we can believe in. *cough* And cut doctors reimbursement, a yearly excersize [and bad idea] which gets voted down every year. Wow that one costs Obama a lot of political capital to suggest that!

I have this doctor strangelove vision of Obama fighting his own hand around his throat and saying, 'Don't make me stiff the fatcat doctor.'

 
537Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 20:15
To cut spending in the next administration. There's change we can believe in.

I'm sorry, did the GOP House pass 4T in cuts that would occur before 2013?
 
538sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 20:25
The plan offered by the Dems, was scored SUBSTANTIALLY above that offered by the Reps, BY the CBO. The Republicans however, would not agree to the Dems original plan, and we thus got the current watered doiwn version.
 
539Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 20:31
Tea Partiers were too busy trying to force Obama into getting rid of the public option on the health care law, among other ideas, to worry about anything having to do with the actual economy.
 
540Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 20:58
Gotta love this one. McConnell suggests a cloture vote so that the Dem plan could be voted up or down and Harry Reid jumps up to object to his own bill being voted on, in essence filibustering his own plan.
 
541sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Aug 07, 2011, 21:15
One has to wonder what ratio of Dem:Rep:Ind Senators were physically in the Senate Chambers at that moment. Reid's reeasosn for objecting, is not included in that vid, so to draw conclusions from it, are I think purely partisan.
 
542Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 00:12
Boldwin

Im lost on why you are so impressed with Reid's objection to that cloture vote. You do understand what cloture is in the senate, yes? That cloture was necessary in the first place is just another example of the GOP-caused gridlock which, according the Chambers quote you proudly provided, directly led to the credit rating downgrade.

Why should he or would he agree to a bill-killingc cloture vote while he was still holding out hope that he could persuade enough moderate Republicans to end the filibuster and bring the thing to an up or down vote?

You're accusing him of playing politics here but it was the Republicans who were preventing the roll call. While your flailing attempts to pin the downgrade on the democrats is amusing, the fact is that it (and the extra 12 figures it will now cost the taxpayers every year in increased interest, wiping out at least half of the projected debt reduction they finally agreed to) is a result that much of the teahadist leadership was happy to realize, as long as it meant that the wealthiest Americans will continue to pay less than their share.
 
543Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 00:28
And remember, it's not just that the teahadis prioritized preserving budget-busting tax cuts for the rich ahead of preventing default. Their actual position was that preventing default was their big concession at the bargaining table. What rubes their constituants are.
 
544sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 02:05
In the meantime, these same teabaggers go on vacation but not until they hold 4,000 employed American jobs in limbo AND piss away 1.2 BILLION in tax revenue which now wonty be collected.

And these jagoffs are the ones you see as being fiscally responsible? I'll agree, they appear ot be responsible for pushing a fragile economy that had been backing slowly away from the cliff, back onto the edge.
 
545sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 13:11
The 50s.....family homes, family vacations, white picket fences, etc etc etc. Obviously, the economy was doing comparatively well then and sionce the GOP seems to think the economic health is directly linked to taxes, lets go back to the taxes in affect during an economic good time...1956 for ex:

1956 Fed Inc Tax Rates and Cap Gains Tax Rates

Simple thing, just write a piece of legislation stating that since the GOP is petulant and unhappy with all the tax concessions given to the wealthy over the past 50 years, we're gonna undo them...all and reinstate the 1956 Tax Codes.

Teabaggers wanna play playground hardball? Fine, I think the Dems need to do likewise and say loud and clear FU.
 
546Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 13:19
It was the Speaker who, Arafat-like, walked away from that deal because he concluded he lacked the skill or the muscle or the spine to sell it to his own caucus.

Another former Reagan official, wondering WTF has happened to the GOP.
 
547Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 22:28
You do understand what cloture is in the senate, yes?

You're accusing him of playing politics here but it was the Republicans who were preventing the roll call.
- MITH

You are the one unclear on the concept.

A cloture vote ends filibuster and brings the bill to an immediate vote.

Thus the republican leader calling for a cloture vote was trying to bring the bill to an immediate vote, not as you believe, preventing a roll call.

Am I the only one here who knows what cloture is?
 
548sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Mon, Aug 08, 2011, 22:38
A cloture vote ONLY ends the prospects of filibuster and brings the bill to an up-down vote IF, the cloture vote passes.

Now, if sufficient Reps voted NO, and at that moment there were more Rep in the chamber than Dem; then the cloture issue would be "done business" and the filibuster would have been 'game on'.
\Hence my earlier comment...one would HAVE to know, the nr of Senatoirs IN CHAMBERS at that moment, AND their party line; in order to BEGIN to understand what transpired there. ANYTHING else, is pure speculation.
 
549Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 01:06
That's not the case anymore, sarge. The rules now call for 60 votes on a cloture vote for it to pass. Doesn't matter who is in the chamber at the time. 60 yay votes are necessary.

I really don't know what the story is on that particular bill, but obviously senators play with the rules all the time and one shouldn't read too much into it either way.

Just to give one example, if the majority is working over some wavering senators of the other party to support the end of a filibuster against the majority's bill, the minority might call for a quick cloture vote to try to derail the process and keep their senators from crossing over on a vote.

Doesn't mean anything about support for the underlying bill. It is all about juggling and maneuvering on voting on whether to vote.
 
550sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 01:48
Right, it takes 60 votes to PASS a cloture. So if there arent 60 YEA votes, the cloture fails and the filibuster is 'game on'...right?
 
551Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 04:05
Until the next cloture vote. All they have to do is wait for the Dems to come back from wherever they are hiding [as is their wont]. They only need one republican crossover to get cloture and there was McConnell offering cloture himself. [Assuming the Dems are unite.]
 
552Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 04:09
And let's get this straight. It wasn't the reps preventing the vote or filibustering and presumably Reid wasn't genuinely going to full on filibuster his own bill. It was just odd to see him voting against his own bill going to the floor. Granted they may have been confident Reid didn't have the votes.

That was some mighty fine improvising to get MITH off the hook for not understanding cloture.
 
553Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 08:47
#550: Yes. Your #548 implies that the number of Senators in the chamber has something to do with that. The number of Senators in the room at the time doesn't matter.

#552: People vote against their own bills all the time. There are bigger political fish to catch here--looking at what a particular Senator does based upon the arcane rules of the Senate on a particular piece of legislation is far too granular for you to be able to make the kinds of sweeping points you hope to make.
 
554Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 10:53
S&P reactions include a very good Nate Silver piece, taking them to task for generally being very bad at what they do.

Turns out they made a $2 trillion error, which they admitted but brushed aside as unimportant.

My own belief is that this is a bit of a makeup call, after really blowing things on housing and derivative ratings.

[BTW, any winger looking for "blame" for the Great Recession need look no farther than the ratings agencies for the biggest culprits. Their fake, optimistic ratings made risky financials look quite rosy, staving off a free market correction which would have been far less painful if done earlier.]
 
555Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 01:02
I wasn't wrong. There was a Republican filibuster in place, which is why a cloture vote was required.

The senate voted down Boehners bill, with, I believe, 6 senate republicans voting against it. Reid would have jumped at an up or down vote right then on his bill (which called for over $4T in debt reduction) but the GOP filibustered, which is why cloture was necessary to get to the up or down vote on the senate bill.

Reid set a deadline for when Dems would invoke cloture, hoping the last minute pressure to avoid default would convert enough Republicans to get them to 60. It still ultimately failed. Thanks to the filibuster, the bill never saw an up or down vote, which it likely would have passed, since the cloture measure got 50 votes in favor. I have no idea why B thinks 10 more Republicans would have voted for cloture the day before when McConnel proposed it.

Whole things a non-starter since the house version was dead in the water anyway.

But in any case I have no idea why so many people think that video exposes obstinate tactics on the Dems part. It shows them trying to get around Republican obstinacy.

Perhaps Boldwin isn't aware that under usual operating conditions, cloture isn't typically required to get every last majority-proposed bill up for a vote.
 
556weykool
      ID: 5478101
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 02:10
Simple thing, just write a piece of legislation stating that since the GOP is petulant and unhappy with all the tax concessions given to the wealthy over the past 50 years, we're gonna undo them...all and reinstate the 1956 Tax Codes.

Sarge:
Are you aware of all the tax loopholes and write-offs that were available in 1956?
I will give you a hint, very few taxpayers paid the top rates.
I'm sure most of the wealthy in this country would jump at the chance to shelter all their income currently taxed at 35% and pay capital gains at 25% instead.
 
557Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 08:54
Re: 556

And what exactly is the main difference between loopholes and write-offs now? Are they the same, no. But I doubt that anyone actually pays the top rate as their effective rate now. Technically it is impossible for anyone's effective rate to equal the maximum rate.
 
558Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 09:04
I'm curious, too. I don't know anything about tax loopholes in the 1950s and how they compare today. I suspect a lot of the popular tax avoidance schemes dried up when Castro took over Cuba but that's just a guess.
 
559Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 11:53
CNN Poll: 63% of Americans calling for increased taxes on the wealthiest Americans and businesses.

We're a country of wealth-distributors, it seems:

...62 percent saying that taxes on the wealthy should be high so the government can use the money for programs to help lower-income Americans.

Obama, btw, won with about 53% of the vote in 2008.
 
560sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 12:13
re 556...I'll give you a hint WK; virtually NONE pay the top rate today. NOt on any substantiual slice of their income. Loopholes, write-offs are same-same in my book. BOth reduce the effective rate of taxes.

But sincve Republicans like to whine so much about the tax rate and not mention the EFFECTIVE rate; I figured WTF...lets bump the rate to 150 and give you clowns something legitimate to whine about.
 
561Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 14:39
Dylan Ratigan is PISSED off.

definitely worth watching.
 
562weykool
      ID: 5478101
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 23:01
Frick:
As I said I dont know the specifics of the tax laws from 1956 but I do know something about the laws since 1980.
When Reagan took office in 1980 the top marginal rate for individuals was 70%.
Reagan got that rate lowered to 50%.
In 1986 Reagen then signed into law the Tax reform act of 1986.
Prior to 1986 wealthy taxpayers were allowed to to invest money in tax shelters and take advantage of many tax credits and the benefits of accelerated depreciation amoung other things.
Losses from the tax shelters (Wind farms, oil drilling, real estate speculation) were then used to offset ordinary income (wages etc) and often the rich paid taxes at a significantly lower rate. If the tax shelter broke even or made money in a subsequent year, the gains from the sale would then be taxed at favorable capital gains rates. Capital gains were 60% excluded from income. Which meant a taxpayer who had 100K in capital gains would only pay taxes on 40% of the gain, and at the top rate of 70% the net capital gains rate was 28%.

Reagan argued if we got rid of all these tax shelters and lowered the top rate to 28% the money that was being spent on tax avoidance schemes could then be invested in the economy and the economy would expand.
It worked, and we had one of the longest periods of economic expansion in our country's history.

These tax shelters are known as Passive Activity Losses(PAL) and can only be used to offset passive activity gains but not ordinary income.

Since 1986 Bush I raised the top rate to 31%, Clinton raised it to 36% and again to 39.6%.
The Bush II tax cuts lowered the rate to 35%, all without the benefits of allowing the tax shelters.

.I'll give you a hint WK; virtually NONE pay the top rate today. NOt on any substantiual slice of their income. Loopholes, write-offs are same-same in my book. BOth reduce the effective rate of taxes.

Challenge for you Sarge:
A taxpayer in 2010 makes 100K salary per month.
At the end of the year they get a W-2 for 1.2 million.
Using examples from the tax code please explain to us how they are able to reduce their income below $369,050 of taxable income.
Please try to use realistic numbers.
I look forward to reading your creativity.

 
563Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 23:54
I think you are largely on the right track, wk--Reagan presented the elimination of a number of tax loopholes as an easy way to lower the tax rate, by showing that the effective tax rate for the wealthy was much lower than the rates they would have otherwise paid because they were taking advantage of lots and lots of loopholes.

In other words, revenues could be about the same by eliminating many of the loopholes while lowering the rates for the taxpayers who took advantage of those loopholes.

Unfortunately, the GOP only got half the lesson, and suddenly "lowering tax rates = more revenue" became the mantra--the elimination of loopholes has never seriously been an issue for Republicans since.
 
564weykool
      ID: 5478101
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 01:22
In other words, revenues could be about the same by eliminating many of the loopholes while lowering the rates for the taxpayers who took advantage of those loopholes.
That is true for a static economy.
What actually happened is that instead of investing money into tax shelters to avoid the high rates there was a flood of money invested into the economy that further increased the tax base.
So not only did we collect about the same amount of money on the current income levels but we collected additional revenues from the expanding economy.

The lesson that the Dems didn't learn is how do you make a bigger pie?
We all know the Dems are masters of fighting over the scraps of the current pie, but what is the Dems plan to grow the economy?
What I take from reading the numerous posts by all the leftists on these boards is a belief in the notion that we can somehow tax our way to prosperity.
 
565Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 02:40
I really don't know what you mean by "bigger pie." The economy grew quite a bit during the Clinton Administration, for example, despite an increase in the tax rate and a shrinking of the government workforce.

You know, of course, that no federal taxes have increased under Obama? None. And federal taxes for nearly everyone has decreased.
 
566Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 02:48
That is true for a static economy

This is true for nearly all economies. [And we've never really been in a static economy--our economy has, at times, contracted, but it has never been truly static.]
 
567Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 02:58
Finally, Reagan's overall record on taxes is quite mixed. While he cut taxes when he first got in, later tax increases took back about half of the early tax cuts.

If, as you say, the economy was suddenly flush with freed cash, then there would have been no need for Reagan to turn around and raise taxes at all.

Meanwhile, your silence on my point that the GOP hasn't learned its lesson about cutting taxes not actually raising revenue is telling. In these partisan days, a non-response on a point is about the only way to have someone from the "other side" actually agree anymore, sadly.
 
568Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 09:23
 
569sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 11:58
re 562...I dont need to. From 1.2 mill; you have already assumed a taxable reduction of $830,950. I dont consider 369k adjusted gross, to be a substantial portion of $1,200,000.
 
570sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 13:20
Hobbit, er teabagger, demands apology from McCain; McCain says No.

Good on you John McCain!
 
571Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 17:27
Freshman GOP member gets schooled on basic economic effects of government spending by the CBO.

His original letter to the CBO

CBO response here, which should be required reading for incoming House members.

Fact is, government's best tool for stimulating private investment is by dropping interest rates. But those rates are next to zero right now, and have been for some time.
 
572sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 18:20
I thought the freshmen Representative set himsel;f up for a biatch slap actually. When hasked (1) Which Govt Agencies/Depts do not contribute to economic growth?...My first thought was "Congress". Then he asked, 2) How much could we safely cut those Depts budgets?...Again I felt...100%... was appropriate.
 
573weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 18:43
#562
Of course you dont need to, the question is can you?
Either you know what you are talking abour or you are just spewing mindless leftist rhetoric.
If what you are saying is true 1.2 million should be easy for you, nevermind the taxpayers who make 10 to 100 times that amount.
 
574sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 18:53
WK, I said they dont pay taxes on a substantial portion of their income. You apparently stipulated that I was right, when you challenged me to EXCEED sheltering from taxation, 2/3 of their income. IOW, you made my point for me.
 
575weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 20:57
virtually NONE pay the top rate today.
That is what you said.
In order for that to be true someone who makes 1.2 million would need to shelter 830K.

I said they dont pay taxes on a substantial portion of their income.
This statement is false as well.

You can believe what you want but the truth is most of the former tax benefits/loopholes afforded taxpayer who pay the most taxes have been eliminated.
If you know something about the tax code that I dont please enlighten me.
 
576biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 21:44
Most in the top .5 % generate the majority of their income from capital gains.
 
577weykool
      ID: 5478101
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 22:20
Most in the top .5 % generate the majority of their income from capital gains.

Link please.
 
578biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 22:36
http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/2010/09/23/the-very-rich-are-different-they-pay-a-lower-tax-rate/

Best I could do from iphone
 
579sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 00:16
re 575...selective quoting WK. Boldwins fave tactic, well...1st step anyway. Here, is the COMPLETE post, from which you ignored a key element of what I said:

re 556...I'll give you a hint WK; virtually NONE pay the top rate today. NOt on any substantiual slice of their income. Loopholes, write-offs are same-same in my book. BOth reduce the effective rate of taxes.

But sincve Republicans like to whine so much about the tax rate and not mention the EFFECTIVE rate; I figured WTF...lets bump the rate to 150 and give you clowns something legitimate to whine about.


Now, can we quit parsing words and admit, if one who grosses 120k, only pays toip tax on 60% of that income, they have sheltered a SUBSTANTIAL amount of monies from taxation? Or, is 480k 'chicken feed' in your financial circles?
 
580sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 01:20
the 120k obviously, should have read 1.2 mill; to remain consistent with your theoretical.
 
581biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 08:49
The rich giggle as the teabaggers keep them well-stocked with mansions and yachts.
 
582biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 09:25
Wealthiest 1% reap 70% of capital gains in the country

Doesn't perfectly support my earlier statement, but you get the gist. That 15% tax-rate benefits the wealthy almost exclusively. 90% of all capital gains are garnered by the top 5% of earners.
 
583sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 11:47
Gee, that 24% figure pd by the "merely rich", isnt all that much different from what I've generally paid and the 16^ pd by the uber-rich, is LESS than I've generally paid.
 
584Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 15:08
S&P reveals that part of the reasoning for the downgrade was that some politicos on the Right were not taking the effect of a default very seriously.

In other words, "If these wackos as making budgetary decisions, the bonds they issue aren't worth as much."
 
585Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 15:42
"S&P senior director Joydeep Mukherji said the stability and effectiveness of American political institutions were undermined by the fact that “people in the political arena were even talking about a potential default,” Mukherji said."

Obama and Turbo Timmy were the ones talking about a potential default. Scaring people. The only way they would default was if they were too stupid to pay the interest on the debt first. They had plenty of money for that.


 
586sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 15:50
Selective memory? It was the HOuse Republicans saying "let it default". Obama was WARNING against it, House Reps were cheering FOR it.
 
587Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 15:51
Ha! Were had a potential default because of the Tea Party's unwillingness to reject default as an option. The list of people on the Far Right saying default was no biggie is long. Those on the left? No one.

The fact that Obama was pointing out the facts on the ground (default is bad) wasn't bad. It was that that realty was shaped by the Far Right.
 
588Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 15:53
"More than 100 House Republicans backed a measure sponsored by McClintock that created a plan if the country failed to raise the debt ceiling - prioritizing debt payments over other obligations."

 
589DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 16:03
A link that maybe B7 should try reading for two minutes to learn something about this topic
 
590Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 16:31
McClintock voted against the final compromise bill. He's part of the problem, not the solution. It should be noted that his bill never made it out of committee--a committee controlled by his own party.
 
591DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 17:34
Also, I guess in B7s world if you contract for services and then just don't pay for them, it isn't real debt and won't affect your credit rating at all.

I should really try that with Dish Network - I'm sure they'll just keep shipping the 200+ channels of goodness and I can explain that I have to pay my real debt and they can just wait, and it'll be fine... right?
 
592DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 17:40
Also also, wasn't I called a treasonous evil SOB for suggesting that Obama's people prioritize payments however they wanted to (after paying off the debt interest)? Am I just imagining that?

Now you're excoriating him for not agreeing to do that (and, presumably, pay what YOU want paid first).

Pick a damn lane, already. It's hard to keep track when you just completely go blind rage/make stuff up that directly contradicts your blind rage from two weeks ago.
 
593sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 17:53
Yes but DW, like myself, you're a leftwinbger. That alone makes you treasonous. Makes no difference whether you agree or disagree with the rightwiongnuts. You're a lefty? You're treasonous.

C'mon, ya gotta know the rules of the game by now.
 
594weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 19:43
Bili thank you for the link @ 582.
According to the article:
Top 1% $396,000 or more
Average Income: 1,241,000
Average capital gain: 232,824
232,824/1,241,000 = 18.76%
A far cry from over 50%.


 
595Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 20:04
Bili said top 0.5%. Not the top 1%.
 
596Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 21:22
Actually, bili said the top 5%. According to the chart (from 2005) the top 5% of earners paid 89.5% of all capital gains taxes.

Lowering that particular tax rate benefits the top 5% of earners almost exclusively.

But that isn't the point bili was making, which is made better in the Forbes article he also linked to in 578.
 
597sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 21:52
In 2007 (the last year the IRS has published data for) the 400 derived two thirds of their average adjusted gross income of $345 million from capital gains and paid an average effective rate of just 16.6%.

67% of their income, taxed at a meager 15%.
 
598weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 21:52
The forbes article only looked at the top 400 returns out of just under 143 million returns filed for 2007. (.00028%)

From the IRS website:
IRS Stats

For 2006 there were over 138 million returns filed.
There was not a clean break of the top .5%
The best I could do was the 354K returns with incomes over 1 million AGI that represented .256% of the total returns filed.
The average AGI was 3.4 million with net capital gains of just under 500K.
That calculates to 14.55% of income derived from net capital gains.

Note: The link @582 used Average Capital Gain.
I believed I used the more mainingful Net Capital Gain.
If a taxpayer had capital gains of 1 million and capital losses of 500K they are netted together for a 500K capital gain and taxes are figured on the net amount.
 
599sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 01:34
A rose, is a rose, is a rose. Income, is income, is income.

There exists, no valid rationale, not born out in practiuce, for taxing capital gains at a lower rate than "earned" income.

WHY, tax the kid born with the silver spoon in his mnouth, 15% on his lifelong "investment income", while taxing the blue collar working stiff, 18-23% of the income they generate through labor?

Income, is income, is income; and it should all be taxed as just that...Income.
 
600sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 01:39
FTR; bili's original statement...Most in the top .5 % generate the majority of their income from capital gains....wowuld seem to be supported by the Foirbes Top 400.

He then "ammended" his statement to...90% of all capital gains are garnered by the top 5% of earners. ...which is NOT the same as saying the top 5% get most of their income from Capital Gains. It says, 90% of all capital gains, are in the hands of a very small part of the population (top 5%) and thus, the benefit of a lower capital gains tax rate, aids onbly a very se;lect few taxpayers and amongst the mopst wealthy of them at that. IE, social welfare for the uber rich.

And dont EVEN claim capital gains spur growth, spur jobs etc etc etc. The investments, the tax cuts, NONE of that has spurred economic growth over the past severalk years, so please drop the tired old cliche claims which history has already shown to be false.
 
601sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 02:18
Tax Rates that would make Leona Helmsley proud

...In an analysis of the 20 highest income ZIP codes in the nation for 2007 (as reported by the Internal Revenue Service), he finds that the 130 individual tax returns filed from the Helmsley Building in Manhattan showed an average adjusted gross income of $1.17 million and an effective federal tax rate of just 14%. ...

...In 2007, the 400 derived two thirds of their average adjusted gross income of $345 million from capital gains and paid an average effective rate of just 16.6%.
...


...Sullivan found that the highest income ZIP code for 2007 belonged to New York’s Seagram Building, used as the address for 19 individual tax returns showing an average AGI of $13.9 million, with an effective tax rate of 19%. The highest AGI ZIP codes (and lowest tax rates) are dominated by Manhattan office buildings...

...Some of the top 20 ZIP codes are residential, including Atherton, Calif.’s 94027, where 3,505 tax filers reported an average of $1.23 million in AGI and paid an effective 21% tax rate. ..

There ya have it WK. 3500 filers, with AGI of your theoretic gross peresented to me, and on THAT figure, they paid less than 2/3 the top rate in taxes. Not 35%, but 21%.
 
602Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 13:23
The forbes article only looked at the top 400 returns out of just under 143 million returns filed for 2007.

The IRS puts out information about the top 400 each year, fyi.

But I think you are using the wrong metric here. Taxes for the top 400 wealthiest Americans have been cut in half over the last decade. So the group most able to pay more in taxes have continued to enjoy tax break after tax break.
 
603weykool
      ID: 5478101
      Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 18:22
But I think you are using the wrong metric here. Taxes for the top 400 wealthiest Americans have been cut in half over the last decade. So the group most able to pay more in taxes have continued to enjoy tax break after tax break.

I am fully aware the IRS makes available the stats for the top 400 returns (which may or may not be the wealthiest Americans)
To be honest looking at the top 400 returns is a pretty useless measure because it is such a teenie tiny percentage of returns filed.

The link I provided at #598 has the raw data.
Please use the link I provided to substantiate your claim that the taxes have been cut in half.

I also challenge you to list all the so called tax breaks they supposedly enjoy.
I made a similar challenge to Sarge and he was unable to offer anything and then tries to change the subject.
 
604sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 19:39
WK...tyhere is a reason people with 7+figure incomes hire FIRMS of tax professionals. Yet you in your false air of superiority, expect me as a non-tax professional, to show you how to shelter 800k of income from taxes.

Tell ya what, when you can hit with one shot, a dinner plate at 1200 yards, with a crossing wind, and a 100 ft elevation difference between you and the plate...THEN I will take up your tax challenge.
 
605Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 22:08
Please use the link I provided to substantiate your claim that the taxes have been cut in half.

That's funny. Really. I tell you that taxes for the wealthiest have been cut in half over the last ten years, and you tell me to prove it based upon a link to only the last year's information.

This is like trying to prove that Star Wars was a good movie based on a movie still photo.

Meanwhile you keep dodging the clear point, made in post and link and post and link, that the richest enjoy an effective tax rate lower than those not as wealthy.

If you want me to prove it you'll have to actually respond to the posts being made.

I noted before that you were on the right track regarding the use of tax loopholes for the rich not to pay top tax rates--why is it so hard for you to make the next step--that such loopholes, combined with lower capital gains taxes, actually make their effective tax rate relatively low?

I'll even give you a gimme: Capital gains taxes are at 15% now.

 
606sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 22:40
FLAT TAX, SIMPLE, STRAIGHT FORWARD....

Line 1) Total Income from ALL sources _______
Line 2) 25,000 if Single, 50,000 if Married or Single with minor dependant(s)
Line 3) Subtract Line 2 from line 1
Line 4) Flat Tax Rate 50%
Line 5) Line 3 x Line 4 = Total Tax Liability
Line 6) Amount Withheld
Line 7) If Line 6 > Line 5..Amount to be refunded
Line 8) If Line 5 > Line 6..Amount Due

Viola...simple, 15 minutes tops to complete. No more making $5,000,000 and paying 16% taxes.
 
607Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 00:04
Let's not go off the rails here, sarge. As I've pointed out in two separate flat tax threads, the numbers just don't add up.
 
608sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 00:21
From my past reading, seems a Tax of 20% or so is necessary for revenue neutralitry, depending on what if any exemptions are allowed. Since I'd propose a 'life sustaining' exemption, a rate of 50% struck me as appropriate. *shrug*
 
609weykool
      ID: 5478101
      Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 06:02
Sarge:
You are absolutely correct
If I come on here and make a comment about rifles like: "The best rifle is a 22 or 23 caliber rifle, whatever it takes"
You are going to call me on it.
Likewise if you make an equally stupid comment about taxes don't be surprised if I call you on it.
All I'm asking from you is stop making comments if you are going to make them out of ignorance.

PD:
The link I provided has stats from 1995 to 2008.
I assumed you would have no problem navigating the site.
IRS stats by year
I have provided you the direct link you will need to support your claim.

There is nothing to discuss regarding a "lower effective rate".
We all pay one set rates for ordinary income based in income levels and we all pay another rate for for net long term capital gains.
There are reasons why there is a different rate for for capital gains and only a complete loon would suggest we eliminate the lower capital gains rate.
I care not to debate an issue with complete loons.
 
610Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 09:54
We all pay one set rates for ordinary income based in income levels and we all pay another rate for for net long term capital gains

Well, you really continue to swing and miss on my point. I can see why you are so frustrated--you think you are going to really hit the pitch out but come up with nothing but air.

Loon? Really?

I'm not sure if you misunderstand the concept of "effective tax rate" or not. You come across as a guy who believes he understands all about tax law but this is a concept which you are actively avoiding.

You're right--you don't want to debate it. I get that. And I see where you are coming from here--a person suggesting raising tax rates of any sorts is a "loon." Nice.
 
611sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 12:53
WK still holds fasdt to the theory, that lower cap gains taxes incentivizes investments, which in turn provide capital for economic growth.

WONDERFUL theory, sort of like the Marxist theory "from each according to their abiulity, to each according to their need". Both are great theories, both have been demonstrated in the real world, to not work real well.

IF a lower cap gains tax rate was such an incentive to economic growth; why so much investment in gold? Why hasnt the economy FLOWN into the stratosphere? Why arent companies hiring left and right?

Why? Because those who "have it", are hoarding it. Those who dont, are trying to figure out how to survive, without resorting to theft.
 
612sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 13:13
and FTR WK...referring back to my post 601, and its link..

...Some of the top 20 ZIP codes are residential, including Atherton, Calif.’s 94027, where 3,505 tax filers reported an average of $1.23 million in AGI and paid an effective 21% tax rate. ..

That isnt 400 filers, its 3500. AGI breaks down to be above 100k/m; yet they paid WELL below the 35% tax rate.

So, show me in my "ignornace", where my contention was/is false. Go ahead...I'll wait.
 
613weykool
      ID: 5478101
      Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 14:51
PD:
I have never claimed to be an expert about tax law.
I do know enough to be able to spot pure BS when I see it.
I had no idea if Bili's claim at #576 was true or not but it just sounded a little off.
And I was right.
I have no idea if your claim at #602 is true or not but it sounds like BS.
You have the link to prove your claim. (There is a link to the top 400 returns as reported by the IRS)
Until you prove your claim we will have to assume you are spewing BS.
 
614Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 15:42
only a complete loon would suggest we eliminate the lower capital gains rate. I care not to debate an issue with complete loons.

First, you don't "debate", you spew. You haven't recognized a single point made by someone else, that occurs in debates. It is unclear if this is due to obstinance or ignorance, probably both.

There are plenty of intelligent people who advocate the removal of a capital gain distinction, it's the cornerstone of any meaningful tax simplicity reform. A good third of the tax code is dedicated to the distinction of regular and capital income. I'm not an expert, but I have studied the tax code and that much hasn't changed.

Whenever weykool enters a thread, that is my notice to exit, not interested in reading the rants and insults of a self satisfied dimwit.
 
615Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 18:46
Jeez, I spend more time correcting errors...

I have never claimed to be an expert about tax law.

I never claimed you did.

Until you prove your claim we will have to assume you are spewing BS.

Well, there you go. Apparently your link to the raw data trumps my link to the story which draws the conclusion I made. Since (in this thread, anyway) you have drawn the line at talking about either "effective tax rate" or "loons" you've decided to define out any attempt at the point in question. Easy to say someone is "spewing BS" when you refuse to look at the information provided.

Why do you come here? You clearly are not interested in any real debate.
 
616weykool
      ID: 5478101
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 04:43
PD:You come across as a guy who believes he understands all about tax law
WK:I have never claimed to be an expert about tax law.
PD:I never claimed you did.

Why do you come here? You clearly are not interested in any real debate.
You are correct, there is no real debate here.

I ask Sarge to back up a claim, all I get is a changing of the subject.
I ask Bili to back up his claim I get misleading links, parsing of words, and a changing of the subject.
I provide you with a link to back up your claim and all I get a changing of the subject and insults.
Pointless to have a debate when people refuse to back up claims and only want to change the subject when they get challenged.
I am done "debating" if that's what you think you are doing.
 
617biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 08:46
Wow, WK. If I'd known the precise figure mattered so much to you (instead of, you know, the point), I would have looked it up first.

I read the stat in an article years ago. Perhaps it's now only 43%, but if it is, how does this matter? The rich clearly don't pay the same rates as regular Americans, and showing that I'm off by a few percent one way or another doesn't invalidate that over-arching conclusion.
 
618biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 09:16
I just saw 598. Thanks for doing the math. You are right; I must have not remembered the stat correctly.

Again however, the point that the rich pay lower rates than the rest of us remains.

Buffet makes my point better (and more accurately).

While the poor and middle class fight for us in Afghanistan, and while most Americans struggle to make ends meet, we mega-rich continue to get our extraordinary tax breaks. Some of us are investment managers who earn billions from our daily labors but are allowed to classify our income as “carried interest,” thereby getting a bargain 15 percent tax rate. Others own stock index futures for 10 minutes and have 60 percent of their gain taxed at 15 percent, as if they’d been long-term investors.

These and other blessings are showered upon us by legislators in Washington who feel compelled to protect us, much as if we were spotted owls or some other endangered species. It’s nice to have friends in high places.

Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.

If you make money with money, as some of my super-rich friends do, your percentage may be a bit lower than mine. But if you earn money from a job, your percentage will surely exceed mine — most likely by a lot.
 
619Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 11:41
"If the US Government was a family, they would be making $58,000 a year, yet they spend $75,000 a year,(year after year) and have $327,000 in credit card debt. They are currently proposing BIG spending cuts to reduce their spending to $72,000 a year. These are the actual proportions of the federal budget and debt, reduced to a level that we can understand."
-Dave Ramsey
 
620sarge33rd
      ID: 97131511
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 12:13
but...a family doesnt own a mint, or have the ability to increase revenue, (nor do we as long as the Reps hold their idiotic line in the sand).

You can not compare household finances, to national finances.
 
621Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 12:20
I like Dave Ramsey. A lot. His Financial Peace University should be required for newly-engaged couples.

But he's wrong about the metaphor. The US government is not a family. Or, if it were, it would be a family without a job but mouths to feed, paying for groceries on the credit card.

The Tea Party would be the cranky aunt, telling Dad to stop spending money on those damn kids.

You do what you have to do, including charging food on a credit card, until things get better.
 
622sarge33rd
      ID: 43701514
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 15:00
Another spot on statement from W Buffet:

Buffett said higher taxes for the rich will not discourage investment.

"I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone - not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 - shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain," he said

"People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off."


 
623sarge33rd
      ID: 43701514
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 15:26
I've said for years,"...those least able to afford to give, are the most likely to do so."

Seems, I was right.

Rich people are different, and not in a good way

Psychologist and social scientist Dacher Keltner says the rich really are different, and not in a good way: Their life experience makes them less empathetic, less altruistic, and generally more selfish.
 
624Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 17:26
You have no idea.

That is who you work for, Sarge. Why you choose to carry so much water for him, I really can't say.
 
625sarge33rd
      ID: 507181517
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 18:19
for cripes sake Boldwin...could you be MORE insane?

Like him or not, Soros knows money. Like him or not, Buffet knows money. BOTH, will tell you that the rich have PLENTY of room to be taxed more. (more pronounced...FAIRLY). If middle class taxpayer pays 20% of his/her income ion fed inc tax, there is NO REASON for someone making 500 times as much, to pay a lower per centage. NONE.

We the people, have GOT to quit protecting the uber-fkn-rich, and START making them pay their fair share. And paying a lower per centage of inc ome than their secretary, is NOT their fair share.

Gonna ask you the same question I asked my dad......Why do you endorse the rep Party, when you cant afford to the Republican dues? (ie ..membership at your local country club, chauffer and car that cost more than then the median priced home in your area.)
 
626weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 18:46
Bili:
Thank you for being honest enough to admit an honest mis-remembering.
You also made an honest effort to provide links to back up your claim.

Re the Buffet quote:
Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.
As the saying goes: "Figures dont lie but liars know how to figure"
The lie in this case is Buffet is lumping social security and medicare taxes with income taxes.
Now if Buffet's point is that payroll taxes unfairly raise the effective rates of middle and lower income tax families then lets do whatever we can to repeal them and eliminate them for all taxpayers.
The lie goes even deeper when he uses "and on my behalf", which means he is including taxes that are paid by the employer and not the taxpayers.
Remove the the 15.3% (assuming they made less than $106,800) and the effective income tax rates for the other 20 people become 17.7% to 25.7% with a 20.7 average.
The next question I would like to know is how does Buffet know know what taxes the other 20 people in his office paid?
Does he know what itemized deductions they claimed?
Does Buffet require the people who work in his office to file copies of their returns with him?

In addition if Buffet believes he should be paying more taxes then by all means he should.
There Is no law from stopping him making out a check to The Bureau of Public Debt for his "fair share".
 
627Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 18:50
Why do you endorse the rep Party, when you cant afford to the Republican dues? (ie ..membership at your local country club, chauffer and car that cost more than then the median priced home in your area.) - Sarge

I can't afford the price of living in a gulag or re-education camp.
 
628sarge33rd
      ID: 357111518
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 19:11
No WK. The answer is not the repeal of SS, but to raise the top tax rates, do away with Cap Gains being given an unforgivably LOW rate, and eliminate the home mortgage interest rate deduction beyond the primary residence.

That, for starters. Income, is income..period. It should all be taxed at the same rate.
 
629Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 20:32
I am done "debating" if that's what you think you are doing.

You never were debating, wk. You we're busy pissing a circle around yourself, daring others to come near you.

I get it--you don't want to talk about effective tax rates. Probably because you'd have to admit that the rich pay less of their income in taxes than those who work for them, and that would just rock your world.

Whatever.
 
630Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, May 21, 2012, 18:00
House breaks deal with WH, passes budget that exceeds the agreed-to limits

Another example in the ongoing "Why you can't trust a Republican lawmaker to keep his word."