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| Posted by: Tree
- [16329157] Sun, May 01, 2011, 22:55
Obama about to speak on it. |
| | | 1 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Sun, May 01, 2011, 22:58
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finally
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| | | 2 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Sun, May 01, 2011, 23:03
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10 long years but nothing is better to hear.
God bless are American men and women over there who battled long and hard and got the man we all wanted.
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| | | 3 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sun, May 01, 2011, 23:05
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Won't believe it until I see the long form death certificate.
(too soon?)
Obviously, this is a very good thing, but let's not make it out to be more than it is. It's not like he's the only one out there.
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| | | 4 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Sun, May 01, 2011, 23:54
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Great speech, makes it even harder for potential Republican candidates.
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| | | 5 | Great One
ID: 46457122 Sun, May 01, 2011, 23:58
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so lets see... i already read a facebook update that says Obama just announced this so it would boost his ratings... and then I see Fox News is claiming this happened a week ago and he was bombed (which would be the very different than what was just announced)...
what the hell is wrong with people.
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| | | 6 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 00:39
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They see nothing outside of partisan politics, GO. Which means that they can't believe anyone else sees things other than the same way.
These are the same people who complained about Clinton going to war simply to distract from their attempts to talk about his blow job.
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| | | 7 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Mon, May 02, 2011, 01:27
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| | | 8 | weykool
ID: 944721 Mon, May 02, 2011, 02:47
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A great day for America and all we get on these boards are partisan posts? Shameful and disappointing.
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| | | 9 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Mon, May 02, 2011, 05:52
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OK I'll bite. I don't believe and it has nothing to do with who is President.
I don't believe Bin Laden was even alive.
I posted it here years ago and I will do so again.
What evidence do we have that he was alive? Occasionally we got a recorded message, that sounded like it was recorded on a 40 year old tape recorder with a 40 year old tape. Convenient because hard for linguists to independently verify the authenticity. The CIA always assured us that it was him though.
Amazing he was not able to have any of his followers bring a recorder or video camera made within the new millennium even though they were readily and easily available. We now find out he had a courier visiting the mansion he was living in, but he couldn't bring him an HD video camera so he could make intelligible recordings for his followers and his threats to the West? That's ok, the CIA assured us the unintelligible recordings were him.
Now he was conveniently shot in the head, so any photos of him will not be good, or not shown, but let's see what they give us. Then they "have to bury him" because of Muslim laws about burial (Within 24 hours, smirk) So they conveniently dump him at sea. Please, should I just write sucker on my forehead?.
This guy was supposedly responsible for killing 3,000 of our civilians intentionally, then we trip over ourselves to pay him the "respect" of a proper burial? Convenient because then the body cannot be examined by anyone independent since it's now "shark bait".
Lots of people will believe it though, because "our government wouldn't lie" and "everything is always as it seems of course in our perfect little reality."
Obama may think he was alive, he may have been told they found him, he may have been told they killed him, so don't paint this as anti Obama from me. It's conspiracy 101. Now maybe I will be proven wrong, maybe the evidence will be so compelling I will have to change my mind.
My guess is the story is as bogus as why building 7 collapsed like a controlled demolition. I am sticking my neck out and posting this before all the evidence is in so maybe I will get my head handed to me with amazing footage of the raid and the body later, crystal clear footage, let's see.
In the meantime, you are all welcome to believe whatever fairy tales you like.
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| | | 10 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Mon, May 02, 2011, 08:38
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This guy was supposedly responsible for killing 3,000 of our civilians intentionally, then we trip over ourselves to pay him the "respect" of a proper burial?
I have to admit, that was one of my first thoughts when I heard the news. I tend to be on the opposite side, believing he's now dead and glad its over. However I will admit that the 'quick disposal' of the body in accordance with Islamic law is suspicious.
I don't think suspicion is out of place here. But at the same time, if this were orchestrated to make us think we finally got bin Laden, then what was the purpose of doing it now? Why not wait another year to year and a half until campaign/election time?
I believe we got him yesterday, but with some of the circumstances I'm willing to listen.
Although, considering where he was living (no phone, no internet etc), is it surprising his recordings sounded like they were made on an old style tape-recorder? Thats actually in line with where they found him and how he was living.
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| | | 11 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Mon, May 02, 2011, 08:50
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I find the burial at sea suspicious as well, but I can also understand the attempt to follow Islamic law on a burial within 24 hours. One report I heard said that countries his body was offered to, rejected it out of fear that it would be come a religious shrine. We also don't want to add more hate for not respecting their customs.
As for the poor quality voice recordings, would you be surprised if they were afraid of newer technology having embedded tracking devices, like geolocations. Or a higher quality sound recording might potentially provide a clue to where he was? IMO that seems possible to a group that was likely wildly paranoid.
My biggest fear now, is will we see a reprisal attack?
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| | | 12 | Tree
ID: 16329157 Mon, May 02, 2011, 08:50
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This guy was supposedly responsible for killing 3,000 of our civilians intentionally, then we trip over ourselves to pay him the "respect" of a proper burial?
to me, that's the media grasping something. a proper Muslim burial is in the ground, although burials at sea are allowed if you feel the deceased "enemy" might cut off body parts for personal gain or just to desecrate the body.
i think that was a convenient excuse for the US, to avoid a marked grave that would, in essence, become a mecca for his followers.
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| | | 13 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 09:01
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No American casualties in the raid. You gotta love that.
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| | | 14 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Mon, May 02, 2011, 09:05
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Hell just got a lot more nasty.
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| | | 15 | Myboyjack
ID: 447112610 Mon, May 02, 2011, 09:33
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Wonder if he competes with Sadaam for Satan's affections. Can't wait for the South Park.
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| | | 16 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, May 02, 2011, 09:42
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While nerveclinic #9 certainly gives food for thought, I have to ask this obvious question:
"Why, if they're going to make a charade out of bin Laden's death, would they stage it in the middle of Pakistan, near the capital of Islamabad, instead of in a remote area that may not accelerate as wide a Pakastani protest among its citizenry?"
We're already sending drones into the border regions and killing civilians along with terrorists, so the backlash would seem to much less than having our special ops functioning in the middle of their cities.
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| | | 17 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:06
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I wish I were able to get back to 'Little Pakistan' in Brooklyn today, the neighborhood I called home for 4 years, to see the reaction there.
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| | | 18 | Razor
ID: 172252412 Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:08
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I am fairly certain that there will be a photo of the body of bin Laden in the same way a photo was circulated of al-Zarqawi.
The conspiracy theory that bin Laden has been dead for years has even less meat than other conspiracy theories, as in, there is not any evidence at all except some wild speculation.
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| | | 19 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:18
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Re: 18
I point you in the general direction of the birther thread for the necessity of facts to fuel the conspiracy theorists.
link
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| | | 20 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:28
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Frick, that's cruel and unusual punishment.
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| | | 21 | Boldwin
ID: 243229 Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:33
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I heard they buried him at sea. I guess he'll get 72 virgin hagfish instead of 72 virgin maggots.
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| | | 22 | Boldwin
ID: 243229 Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:35
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Tho if you insist on a conspiracy theory, they still keep the bones of Geronimo. Not sure why OBL's bones wouldn't look just as good right next to them.
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| | | 23 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:41
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I find i kind of interesting that he seemed to be living in the middle of Pakistan, in a ordinary looking suburban home. No wonder they could never find him in the mountains. Want to talk about conspiracies how does a guy with 25 million dollar price on his head live in the middle of a city?
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| | | 24 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:45
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Actually it wasn't ordinary from what I've read--it was a huge mansion that stood out from its neighbors.
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| | | 25 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:53
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bear in mind too, the civilian population of Pakistan is not necessarily friendly toward us or unfriendly toward Al Qeada.
OK..,so the US has/had 2 choices re the body:
1) bring it back to the US and ignore what we j=know are Islamic Laws, in order to what? Satisfy the conspiracy theorists? And in the doing not only fail to satisfy the conspiracy theorist but at the same time further antagonize the Muslim world.
or
2) Bury the body where in can not create a Martyr Shrine for the extremists but be in compliance with Islamic Law, thereby showing the moderates of Islam that we respect their religious beliefs.
In this game of "Truth or Consequences", think I'll take curtain nr 2.
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| | | 27 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Mon, May 02, 2011, 10:57
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Agreed Sarge. Conspiracy theorists always seem to assume their appeasement should be everyone else's top priority.
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| | | 28 | Razor
ID: 172252412 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:05
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Re: 26 - I might be mistaken but didn't Obama catch some flak for that comment in 2008 and it was irresponsible to state publicly that we would conduct a military action within an ally's borders?
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| | | 29 | Boldwin
ID: 243229 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:06
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Sarge
I wasn't suggesting I know a better use of OBL's body. I was suggesting the Skull&Bones had a display case already set up.
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| | | 30 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:23
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Although, considering where he was living (no phone, no internet etc),
he didn't have internet or phone to prevent being traced.
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| | | 32 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:30
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Actually it wasn't ordinary from what I've read--it was a huge mansion that stood out from its neighbors.
so not only was he not living in a cave but he live in mansion in the city.
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| | | 33 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:36
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The conspiracy theory that bin Laden has been dead for years has even less meat than other conspiracy theories, as in, there is not any evidence at all except some wild speculation.
The speculation is based on absolutely no evidence he has been alive except extremely poor recordings that linguistics experts say they cannot even identify. If he were alive there should have been some solid evidence of it other then "the CIA promises us".
I am not saying he wasn't, I am saying I have not seen any evidence what so ever to assume he is.
The birther debate wasn't conspiracy theory, it was right wing zealots grasping at straws because they hate Obama.
I don't even need a long form birth certificate, an announcement in a Honolulu newspaper combined with the short form is enough for me. I never debated over there because I thought the whole thing was an idiotic waste of time.
As far as "respecting Muslim burial traditions" huh? this guy is one of the biggest criminals on the planet, we will bury him when we say so, we will let him sit out in the sun for a month if we want to. Most important is that solid evidence should have been provided that it was really him before they dumped him in the ocean.
Of course they will tell us they have DNA evidence and the sheep will all cheer and believe everything daddy government tells them.
This is not an necessarily an Obama issue, same thing could have happened no matter who is in office, including Bush, and it certainly is possible Obama has been lied to if it's all staged. What's he gonna do argue with this gift?
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| | | 34 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:39
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absolutely no evidence he has been alive
Why does the government need to provide evidence he's been alive? Did you, or anyone, provide evidence he was already dead? Seems to me proving someone is alive isn't necessary. Prove to me they are dead.
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| | | 35 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:39
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I find i kind of interesting that he seemed to be living in the middle of Pakistan, in a ordinary looking suburban home.
Nothing ordinary about it. Value estimated at 1 million dollars, it was a huge mansion, it had a 12 foot tall concrete wall around it with bob wire on top. Where I am from that's not ordinary.
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| | | 37 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:41
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The speculation is based on absolutely no evidence he has been alive except extremely poor recordings that linguistics experts say they cannot even identify. If he were alive there should have been some solid evidence of it other then "the CIA promises us".
I agree there was not alot of evidence that he was alive at least for certain periods of time. Nerve is right trusting someone to tell you someone is alive but we have no idea where they are at is can be a bit of a stretch.
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| | | 38 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:48
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Why does the government need to provide evidence he's been alive? Did you, or anyone, provide evidence he was already dead? Seems to me proving someone is alive isn't necessary. Prove to me they are dead.
He is the leader of an Islamist movement, one that seeks publicity for it's cause. He sends messages both to his followers and to the west (Threats).
It's not logical to me that someone in his position, who was trying to spread a message, wouldn't use high enough quality recording equipment, so that the only entity who could decipher his messages were the CIA.
That just seems logical to me.
We don't have one single high quality video of him from the last 8 years, even though high quality video cameras are sold in stores all over Pakistan. It defies logic.
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| | | 39 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:49
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What evidence would you have accepted?
Video would have been deeemed a fake, the charge from committed theorists being that it was a dead lookalike. They'll claim photos were doctored.
DNA will be available for future researchers to examine. What more could you ask for?
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| | | 40 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Mon, May 02, 2011, 11:50
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Nor NC, do you have any evidence that OBL has not been alive. As for his low profile, if the US Govt was on a serious manhunt for me, I'd keep a gawd-awful low profile too.
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| | | 41 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Mon, May 02, 2011, 12:01
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DNA will be available for future researchers to examine. What more could you ask for?
what DNA, and who has the original? It will all be the CIA's and they hold both samples and they won't give it to anyone else.
Sarge I'd keep a gawd-awful low profile too.
he didn't , he made recordings over the years, I am simply questioning how he managed to make the absolute worst quality recordings, over and over, that any of us has heard in our lives. The logical reason is if they were fake they would be to difficult to refute.
And I am not just saying this now, I brought it up years ago and debated it here.
I am not trying to convince anyone. I know most people just believe whatever the media and their leaders tell them. I don't expect everyone to say "oh Nerve's right".
I just am calling it as I see it, and laying out an alternative narrative to lay next to the official one.
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| | | 42 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, May 02, 2011, 12:05
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Nerve, it just seems like over the years you never believe anything that anyone tells you. You always want more proof than can be given. I agree that you should always ask questions but at some point its just a bit of a stretch.
Who do you think should expect the body? Or DNA? Should every American be able to walk up and see it under the microscope? At some point you have to take the word of qualified experts.
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| | | 43 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Mon, May 02, 2011, 12:08
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older A/V equipment, to get around the potential of embedded GPS with a potential of a history. (Theorizing here, not stating as fact)
Modern devices with all there inherent capabilities, navigation aids for ex, would require a GPS locator to enable the mapping function. Last thing OBL would want, would be for such equipment to "fall into the wrong hands" and then it potentially have a history of where it's been. (And no, I have not looked at a camera with the intent of it's having GPS, but I can imagine it plausible.) In any event, I'd be avoiding the latest and greatest techs out of pure paranoia. Give me an old fashioned VCR camcorder for purposes of taping my communiques.
Every potential "loop hole" you close/negate, increases hugely; your odds of remaining "off grid".
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| | | 44 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Mon, May 02, 2011, 12:28
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Nerve you didn't answer my question. What more could you ask for? Even if he were captured alive there would still be those claiming it isn't really him.
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| | | 45 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Mon, May 02, 2011, 12:28
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just to expand a little, cause I know the above sounds far fetched as hell....
Let's harken back to our own High School days. Riding in your buddies car, smokin a joint as you went down the road. Do you recall, the intense sense of paranoia? I know I felt that way then. We just KNEW, that every car going by, every pedestrian going by...not only saw us, but knew what we were doing and was gonna call it in and rat us out. So there we were, 17 and 18 yr old guys in a Camaro SS all fixed up and ready to terrorize the streets, but were deliberate to not speed, not signal, to this and that in accordance with existing driving laws. All due to an excessive paranoia.
Now, take that sense of paranoia, and expand it what? 1,000 fold? We were rattled that we'd get busted on a misdemeanor possession charge. OBL has been rattled that he'd be dead.
A $25,000,000 bounty on him. For many in that part of the world, thats what? 1,000 lifetimes of income? Pretty powerful incentive.
So with the world's largest (if not only) "super power" looking for him, with more satellite recon available to it than any other single body has available to it; with an expansive intelligence apparatus at work; with a scenario wherein I am not allowed to make even ONE mistake, and survive....
How extreme would your own measures be, to avoid the potential of being caught due some minor "convenience"?
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| | | 46 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Mon, May 02, 2011, 12:47
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I don't know about GPS tracked A/V equipment, but I do know the financial resources of al Qaeda are rather limited, so it might be silly for these mostly uneducated militants to purchase expensive digital HD cameras, tape stock and audio equipment loaded with features they'd have to take classes to use with any proficiency.
Further, I have no idea how many "stores all over Pakistan" sell that type of stuff. But I do know that high-quality video is something that is definitely tracable to purchases of the type of equipment that can produce it, I'd imagine particularly so in a country like Pakistan.
Last, I think al Qaeda members and sympathizers were enamored with the notion of bin Laden as a humble figure who rejected the vast wealth and power of his family and chose to live instead in the harsher conditions of much of the Muslim world. It probably wasn't lost on him that lower quality video images support that notion.
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| | | 47 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Mon, May 02, 2011, 12:47
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A high quality recording could also theoretically be used to narrow down the location of the recording, at least based on CSI type shows. Is it hard to believe that a person as paranoid as Osama would ignore that?
I'm not willing to say everything that has been released is true. But, I'm also of the opinion that it is unlikely to be a huge conspiracy. To many people would have to be involved.
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| | | 48 | weykool
ID: 343561414 Mon, May 02, 2011, 13:10
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After dying a grisly death in a fire fight, Osama made his way to the pearly gates. There, he was greeted by George Washington. "How dare you attack the nation I helped conceive!" yelled Washington, slapping Osama in the face.
Patrick Henry came up from behind, "You wanted to end the American's liberty, so they gave you death!" Henry punched Osama in the nose.
James Madison came next and said, "This is why I allowed the government to provide for the common defense!" He took a sledge hammer and whacked Osama's knees.
Osama was subject to similar beatings from John Randolph, James Monroe and 67 other people who had the same love for liberty and America. As he writhed on the ground, Thomas Jefferson hurled him back toward the gate where he was to be judged.
As Osama awaited his journey to his final very hot destination, he screamed, "This is not what I was promised!"
An angel replied, "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you. What did you think I said?"
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| | | 49 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Mon, May 02, 2011, 13:25
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MITH Nerve you didn't answer my question. What more could you ask for? Even if he were captured alive there would still be those claiming it isn't really him.
I don't know what to say MITH. We've been given nothing, zero. So what do you mean "what more can I ask for"?
I didn't believe he was alive so I wouldn't have expected him to be captured alive. Had he been I would certainly have changed my mind. I've never been certain he was dead, just an assumption based on the absurdity of the recordings.
I don't have absolutes, I don't 100% believe 9/11 was an inside job, Im just looking at the evidence. I don't 100% believe he was dead, just an educated guess based on the points I made earlier. Maybe he wasn't dead, I am not dogmatic.
Based on my belief that he was dead, I would assume the story would be he was shot in the face so the photos will be unidentifiable, that is the main thing they would have to do.
Honestly no where in my cynical heart would I imagine they would have the audacity to dump the body in the sea 12 hours after the raid before anyone had a chance to make a peep.
What do you mean? What more could they have done? They have given us nothing. Just assurances that they have DNA and we can trust them that it's authentic. Then dispose of the body in a way only a Mafioso could be proud of.
I think I've articulated my points well already. I don't believe the government, I never have, not Bush, Clinton, Bush or Obama. If you think they have your best interests at heart then that's your business, but MITH, they really haven't given us anything as usual but more questions.
So what do you mean, what more do I want?
To me the most cynical act was dumping the body in the ocean.
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| | | 50 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Mon, May 02, 2011, 13:29
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Well you managed to answer my question, apparently without understanding it: you can't think of any kind of evidence the military or the administration could have provided to convince you within reasonable doubt that bin Laden was killed yesterday.
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| | | 51 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Mon, May 02, 2011, 13:32
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As far as "respecting Muslim burial traditions" huh? this guy is one of the biggest criminals on the planet, we will bury him when we say so, we will let him sit out in the sun for a month if we want to. Most important is that solid evidence should have been provided that it was really him before they dumped him in the ocean.
right. let's be barbarians. this is exactly, to me, why i hate torture, why i hate gitmo, why i hate the way the American Right seems to want to do things. we had enough of that $hit during the Bush years.
we don't do things that way. we're supposed to be the good guys, and we need to be the shining beacon of that.
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| | | 52 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 13:43
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I have no idea where the "respecting Muslim burial traditions" meme came from, but burial at sea after an in-city double tap kill shot to the face strikes me as somewhat outside the Muslim tradition.
Sounds like a third-hand excuse.
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| | | 53 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Mon, May 02, 2011, 13:51
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you can't think of any kind of evidence the military or the administration could have provided to convince you within reasonable doubt that bin Laden was killed yesterday.
Right, well the obvious problem was, as I stated, once he was shot in the face, it would be difficult to identify him correct? So all I can do is work back words.
Hypothesis: He is already dead.
Dilemma: You are going to fake a death.
Method: Disfigure the face and dispose of the body
Those are the two most obvious things that would have to happen and both did. Really disfiguring the face might have been enough unless they knew there would be questions, then disposing of the body would be best.
What would have been better evidence? If he was captured and presented, or if when he was shot it wasn't right in the face and there were good photos taken, like as good as my Christmas pictures since the military has excellent equipment. If there wasn't such a big deal about, "we have to bury him quickly out of respect to his religion" like they are trying to convince us this is the reason.
Maybe he was alive, maybe he was in the compound, maybe they did shoot him in the face, maybe they did bury him quickly out of respect for his Muslim beliefs, a mass murderer of 3,000 of our people certainly deserves our respect.
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| | | 54 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Mon, May 02, 2011, 14:05
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I have no idea where the "respecting Muslim burial traditions" meme came from, but burial at sea after an in-city double tap kill shot to the face strikes me as somewhat outside the Muslim tradition.
Sounds like a third-hand excuse.
it actually does adhere to those traditions (at least based on some quick internet research).
that being said, i'm sure the main reason was to avoid his burial site becoming a shrine.
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| | | 55 | Perm Dude
ID: 22240315 Mon, May 02, 2011, 14:24
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My understanding is that burial at sea is permitted for those who die at sea.
I'm sure you are right in the last sentence. Which is why the fake reason just sounds so stupid.
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| | | 56 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, May 02, 2011, 14:33
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I wonder how much money the government has spent hunting down bin ladin in the past 12 plus years, some how I think when it is all added up the real winner is not America.
I just wanted to comment on what Nerve has been saying that for most part I agree with him in that I thought he was probably dead at least for a period a few years back, but I am pretty sure he is dead now. I am not sure it really matters one way or another.
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| | | 57 | Farn
ID: 8428213 Mon, May 02, 2011, 14:34
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The burial at sea technically isn't right by Muslim tradition. But there is no way they could
A) capture him alive and then have tried or killed him without real international issues
B) buried him on land and not had it been a shrine.
I feel bad that Muslim tradition wasn't followed and we didn't get to see him pay for his crimes but I believe the US did the best they could given the extraordinary circumstances.
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| | | 58 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 14:37
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There would have been no better way for Obama to lord it over the Bush Administration than to reveal that Osama bin Laden had been dead for some time.
Farn: Immediate burial wasn't necessary. Or even a preferred option.
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| | | 59 | Farn
ID: 8428213 Mon, May 02, 2011, 14:38
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PD, doesn't Muslim tradition ask for a burial within 24hrs, preferably before sunset?
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| | | 60 | SZ in Forks
ID: 50445213 Mon, May 02, 2011, 14:45
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What was the logic of waiting to yesterday to announce that we "killed" OBL if he has been dead for a while? If he was killed during GWB's reign, would not have he wanted to glory in this accomplishment?
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| | | 61 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 14:47
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The burial at sea is problematic and makes the hollow reason moot.
There are lots of options that it doesn't appear the US followed. It doesn't appear they offered the body to the family, for instance.
Truth is, they took a strategy which benefited them for a reason which makes them look short-sighted.
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| | | 62 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Mon, May 02, 2011, 15:01
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lots of links providing this info:
620. * It is obligatory to bury a dead body in the ground, so deep that its smell does not come out and the beasts of prey do not dig it out, and, if there is a danger of such beasts digging it out then the grave should be made solid with bricks, etc.
621. If it is not possible to bury a dead body in the ground, it may be kept in a vault or a coffin, instead.
622. The dead body should be laid in the grave on its right side so that the face remains towards the Qibla.
623. * If a person dies on a ship and if there is no fear of the decay of the dead body and if there is no problem in retaining it for sometime on the ship, it should be kept on it and buried in the ground after reaching the land. Otherwise, after giving Ghusl, Hunut, Kafan and Namaz-e-Mayyit it should be lowered into the sea in a vessel of clay or with a weight tied to its feet. And as far as possible it should not be lowered at a point where it is eaten up immediately by the sea predators.
624. If it is feared that an enemy may dig up the grave and exhume the dead body and amputate its ears or nose or other limbs, it should be lowered into sea, if possible, as stated in the foregoing rule.
i think the bolded passage allows for a loophole in a case such as this one; of course, the most extreme of Muslims would disagree.
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| | | 63 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 15:02
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With respect, it isn't the "most extreme" only who are objecting. There was no fear of the body being dug up. The fear was that it would become a shrine.
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| | | 64 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Mon, May 02, 2011, 15:21
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Re: 63
You don't think there is even a remote chance of a redneck digging up the body to desecrate it? I think that would be a tenuous reason, but to say there was no fear is a bit much.
I heard a report on NPR that several countries were offered the body, but declined. I wonder if one of those was Saudi Arabia, which is where he was from IIRC.
The timing has me curious as well. I can understand the timing if the White House wanted to be the first to announce it. I wouldn't be surprised to find out at some point that someone else, Al Jazeera seems like a good choice, was getting ready to break the story. The White House wanted to be the first one out of the gate with the story to get the first spin on the story.
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| | | 65 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Mon, May 02, 2011, 15:42
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actually a guy on Twitter was the first to break the story. he tweeted it live without even knowing what was going on. (not a joke)
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| | | 66 | Boldwin
ID: 243229 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:07
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There just isn't much you can say for sure about OBL's last days. Nerve and my skeptical natures and libraries of past governmental lying to the people can't add much more than those here who accept everything they are fed by the government.
His health: was so bad it's amazing he'd still be alive given his access to medical care but money was not lacking. That's one luxury he had. Nothing about his health significantly rules out the official version of events.
Where he was living: this will certainly generate much speculation but not much light. Could well be he had active inside government support. Could just as well be he positioned himself there thinking the USA military wouldn't be brazen enuff to go in guns blazing so close to the center of Pakistan military nerve center. Thinking that they wouldn't slap Pakistan in the face this way, from the POV of many. Maybe he just thot a high concrete wall topped by barbed wire wouldn't look out of place so close to a military center.
Buried at sea: Suspicious as hell if you are inclined to distrust every official pronouncement. I certainly assume every announcement of a fatal training mission with all hands missing at sea covers up the results of a covert mission but that's just me. And Nerve maybe. There are just as many reasons to think burying him at sea made sense as there are to doubt it, I suppose. Nothing to go on here either way.
Complying with muslim burial custom: Why bother with that? Not doing so could conceivably inflame considering the 'religion of peace and slaughtering handy nearby innocents for the slightest perceived insult half the world away' audience but then sliding him off the scene of world affairs expeditiously and without ceremony could just as well be the best way to eliminate a rallying point.
The more you think about it, the more banal his death becomes. Nothing to build a myth over. Good.
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| | | 68 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:12
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Wait, Boldy are you saying you actually believe all the info that has come out on his death and burial?
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| | | 69 | Skidazl
ID: 56327417 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:13
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Wow, while I consider myself a very peaceful person and have only fired a gun once in Navy basic training, first thing I thought of was how cool it would have been to be the guy who pulled the trigger...
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| | | 70 | Boldwin
ID: 243229 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:15
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Believe might be too strong a word. Their lips are moving and they work for the government after all.
What I am saying is there is nothing about this story to get excited about.
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| | | 71 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:17
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Rock is definitely high in the chain of command on this sort of stuff. I'm pretty sure it goes ground troops - Pentagon - President - The Rock - CNN - other news outlets - Fox News - public.
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| | | 72 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:21
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Nerve and Baldwin are not the only ones
Conspiracy theories: 1. President Obama is actually bin Laden in disguise 2. The U.S. had bin Laden's body frozen since 2001 3. Bin Laden died in 2001, and also in 2003 4. Pakistan's army kept bin Laden as a prisoner to help Obama politically 5. It's all a lie and bin Laden is actually still alive
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| | | 73 | Boldwin
ID: 243229 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:22
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The most profound thing that comes to mind over this: Closure for a bad day in NYC is nice. Heal up, people.
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| | | 74 | Boldwin
ID: 243229 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:26
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Maybe I should give Obama credit for not saving this for a September 2012 surprise. Hmmm...Or maaaybe the Trump assault and Corsi's book going to #1 felt like September to Obama? Nah...it couldn't be.
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| | | 75 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:31
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Most Americans didn't think he would ever be caught. Nice surprise, then.
Just came across this Yahoo story which details some methods of identifying his body.
It appears he was killed near the end, which makes me think he had to realize what was happening some time before they actually got to him.
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| | | 76 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:48
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Most credible conspiracy theory I've heard: Speech was set up, then delayed, to preempt the end of Celebrity Apprentice.
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| | | 77 | weykool
ID: 343561414 Mon, May 02, 2011, 16:59
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Amazing Race was pre-empted as well. Supposedly the pit stop for that leg of the race was a compound with 20 foot high walls in Pakistan.
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| | | 78 | Boldwin
ID: 243229 Mon, May 02, 2011, 17:11
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Most credible conspiracy theory I've heard: Speech was set up, then delayed, to preempt the end of Celebrity Apprentice.
My wife was livid about that. I was asleep.
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| | | 79 | Boldwin
ID: 243229 Mon, May 02, 2011, 17:13
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I don't think it hurts Trump any tho. Cliffhangers are good. My wife will hulu it today.
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| | | 80 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 17:19
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Except that at the same time this was going on in Pakistan, Trump was making the "historic" decision to bring back LaToya Jackson to his TV show.
Sure, among the "anybody but Obama" crowd the "anybody" is still in good standing. But you can practically hear the death of his political career now. Trump puffed himself up, in an effort to out-man Obama. Ain't gonna happen. Obama has a bin Laden patch on his jacket now.
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| | | 81 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 17:20
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Just to be clear, the potential debate answers by Obama practically write themselves at this point.
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| | | 82 | Boldwin
ID: 243229 Mon, May 02, 2011, 18:58
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Obama has a bin Laden patch on his jacket now
Yeah, as if the most liberal vote in congress, the loudest anti-war vote in congress, has now morphed into super-macho Captain America in people's minds. Enjoy that fantasy.
In reality he's neck and neck with Jimmy Carter for biggest naif ever in the WH and he just now scored one less failure so I guess Jimmy just pulled into the lead.
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| | | 83 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, May 02, 2011, 19:01
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biggest naif ever in the WH
Aren't you the same guy trumpeting Allen West for President, a guy with no political experience? You are funnier each and every day.
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| | | 84 | Boldwin
ID: 5421219 Mon, May 02, 2011, 20:21
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West has more military and leadership qualities in his little finger than Obama has in his whole body. We'll see if there is a charisma gap, but West has all the charisma I think he needs to beat Obama.
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| | | 85 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 20:26
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Haha. Bring him on. If West wants to put his big boy pants on, Obama will just replay today's actions, along with earlier ones (Somalian pirates, anyone?).
Obama is no Jimmy Carter, that's for sure.
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| | | 86 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Mon, May 02, 2011, 20:42
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West has more military and leadership qualities in his little finger than Obama has in his whole body.
is that the finger he used to pull the trigger of a gun near the head of a restrained man?
torturers, bigots, liars, criminals. your heroes.
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| | | 87 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, May 02, 2011, 20:46
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Unless I'm mistaken a naif is an inexperienced or naive person.
You called Obama a naif. Yet you trumpet a guy with zero experience. When questioned, instead of answering that question, you tell us he has leadership qualities.
I didn't ask you about qualities. I asked you about his experience. He has none. So your comment about Obama having none seems odd if your favorite candidate actually has none.
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| | | 89 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 21:07
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Great pic on TPM's front page of the Obama team watching it all unfold. You can really see the tension.
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| | | 91 | Boldwin
ID: 5421219 Mon, May 02, 2011, 23:02
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I asked you about his experience. He has none. So your comment about Obama having none seems odd if your favorite candidate actually has none.
Jimmy Carter has had all kinds of experience and I wouldn't trust him running a Tasty-Freeze. Experience isn't the issue, clueless naivete, 'bunny caught in the headlights', zero good judgement is the issue.
The kind of judgement that trashes Gitmo that delivered the intel, and terrorizes the interrogators that delivered the intel, and slashes the military tech spending that delivered the intel, and that never would have engaged with al qeada after 9/11 other than as a police issue. The kind of judgement that keeps ROTC out of his own alma mater I'm guessing. The kind of judgement that puts Eric 'the terrorist's best friend' Holder anywhere near the issue. The kind of judgement that thinks 9/11 was America's chickens coming home to roost. The kind of judgement that makes him feel more comfortable with Code Pink than with a room full of the special forces who went in.
But yeah, Obama backers, enjoy 'your' day. Take off the Shemagh and Keffiyeh. Rent a camo outfit for a day from some Halloween store. Youtube Ballad of the Green Beret and enjoy it for the first time in your life. Turn that picture of Cindy Sheehan to the wall and strike a macho pose like Obama.
Too sad yet funny.
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| | | 92 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 23:06
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trashes Gitmo that delivered the intel,
This is, so far, wishful thinking. There is no evidence, none, that intel came from Gitmo.
The kind of judgement that keeps ROTC out of his own alma mater I'm guessing.
At least you qualified this one.
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| | | 93 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, May 02, 2011, 23:09
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Experience isn't the issue
You called him a naif. Not me. So clearly his experience was your issue. Now you say its not. Sounds like you're back to being a little lot off your rocker.
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| | | 94 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 02, 2011, 23:13
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I particularly like the belligerent (even militaristic) tone by the JW of the boards, telling Dems that they are, basically, military posers in celebrating this victory planned and executed under a Democratic Commander-in-Chief.
Having been proved wrong so publicly can't be easy. But it need not be this hard.
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| | | 95 | Boldwin
ID: 5421219 Mon, May 02, 2011, 23:19
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One of the Guantánamo detainee-assessment files disclosed recently to WikiLeaks and obtained independently by The New York Times may provide a clue about the origins of the intelligence that led to the breakthrough.
That document, an assessment of Mr. Libbi, who was transferred from a secret C.I.A. prison to Guantánamo Bay in September 2006, discusses his interactions with a courier for Bin Laden — who is identified in the document by the initials UBL — in Pakistan. Footnotes to those sentences cite what appear to be C.I.A. accounts of interrogations of Mr. Libbi in 2005 and 2006.
“In July 2003, detainee received a letter from UBL’s designated courier, Maulawi Abd al-Khaliq Jan, requesting detainee take on the responsibility of collecting donations, organizing travel, and distributing funds to families in Pakistan,” the assessment says. “UBL stated detainee would be the official messenger between UBL and others in Pakistan.”
The file then immediately connects Mr. Libbi’s activities at that time to Abbottabad, stating, “In mid-2003, detainee moved his family to Abbottabad, PK and worked between Abbottabad and Peshawar.”
A footnote to that section also includes an analyst’s note saying that in May 2005 Mr. Libbi stated that “he was responsible for facilitation within the settled areas of Pakistan, communication with UBL and external links.”
“He was responsible for communicating with al-Qaida members abroad and obtaining funds and personnel from those Al Qaeda members.” - NYT
-------------
Harvard has only just let ROTC back on campus within the last 30 days as far as I can determine and america's gayness clearly means more to Harvard than america's military.
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| | | 96 | Boldwin
ID: 5421219 Mon, May 02, 2011, 23:21
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Farn
Look up the definition and read all the definitions please.
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| | | 97 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, May 02, 2011, 23:38
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As I said earlier, it could also mean naive.
This doesn't excuse your love of Allen West. He fits that definition as well as any other definition you find insulting.
I don't know why I'm feeding the troll. I get mad when I see others do it but it angers me that you throw your insults out there and then turn around in the same breath and tout these goofy candidates that your right way nutjob message boards love.
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| | | 99 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Tue, May 03, 2011, 08:54
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Boldylocks just feels cheated out of another jet landing on an aircraft carrier under a Mission Accomplished banner.
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| | | 101 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Tue, May 03, 2011, 09:30
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Well, do we at least all agree that Osama bin Laden is dead?
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| | | 102 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Tue, May 03, 2011, 09:36
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One would hope this will put to rest claims of Obama "bowing and apologizing" as the crux of his foreign policy.
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| | | 103 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, May 03, 2011, 09:42
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Jon Stewart's reaction
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| | | 104 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Tue, May 03, 2011, 09:48
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But yeah, Obama backers, enjoy 'your' day. Take off the Shemagh and Keffiyeh. Rent a camo outfit for a day from some Halloween store. Youtube Ballad of the Green Beret and enjoy it for the first time in your life. Turn that picture of Cindy Sheehan to the wall and strike a macho pose like Obama.
how completely off the mark, and in my mind's eye i picture Yosemite Sam spittin' mad, spewing out these silly things that defy logic.
to think your description of liberals is remote accurately, and anything other than EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE AND DISRESPECTFUL is to be the kind of person to deny reality.
it's disrespectful to Sarge. it's disrespectful to former poster Sox as well.
it's disrespectful to Pat Tillman. Tillman, who probably is the absolutely definition of American Hero for giving up millions of dollars to serve his country, was a Chomsky-reading Athiest who had read the Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, Thoreau, and Emerson.
Oh, and he was very much against the Iraq War.
you like to paint these pictures covering an entire group with a broad brush. it doesn't matter if they're Mexicans, Muslims, or Liberals, you maintain a short-sighted, disrespectful, and ignorant view of people who aren't like yourself.
and that's sad.
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| | | 105 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 03, 2011, 11:04
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Oh, and he was very much against the Iraq War.
Because that matters? Nice way to spin what was a good post.
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| | | 107 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 03, 2011, 11:09
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Re 89, so what do you think the chances are that video would have released had bin Laden not been there?
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| | | 108 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, May 03, 2011, 11:11
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None. It would have been a non-story, for the most part. But that kinda misses the point, yes? There are going to be lots and lots of stories, pictures, and videos about this operation we'll now be exposed to because it was successful.
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| | | 109 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Tue, May 03, 2011, 11:28
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Re: post 91:
link
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| | | 110 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Tue, May 03, 2011, 11:29
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Full text of Obama's speech. Like him or not as president its a good speech and I give him credit where credit is due for this whole event.
Good afternoon,
Last night, President Obama announced that the United States has killed Osama bin Laden, leader of al Qaeda and a terrorist responsible for the murders of thousands of innocent people. He made clear that even though Osama bin Laden has been brought to justice, Americans should remember the spirit of unity in the days after 9/11 as we continue to secure our nation and work for a safe and prosperous future. If you haven't yet seen President Obama’s remarks, you can watch them here and read the full transcript below:
Full Transcript of the President’s Remarks on Osama bin Laden
Good evening. Tonight, I can report to the American people and to the world that the United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of al Qaeda, and a terrorist who’s responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent men, women, and children.
It was nearly 10 years ago that a bright September day was darkened by the worst attack on the American people in our history. The images of 9/11 are seared into our national memory -- hijacked planes cutting through a cloudless September sky; the Twin Towers collapsing to the ground; black smoke billowing up from the Pentagon; the wreckage of Flight 93 in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, where the actions of heroic citizens saved even more heartbreak and destruction.
And yet we know that the worst images are those that were unseen to the world. The empty seat at the dinner table. Children who were forced to grow up without their mother or their father. Parents who would never know the feeling of their child’s embrace. Nearly 3,000 citizens taken from us, leaving a gaping hole in our hearts.
On September 11, 2001, in our time of grief, the American people came together. We offered our neighbors a hand, and we offered the wounded our blood. We reaffirmed our ties to each other, and our love of community and country. On that day, no matter where we came from, what God we prayed to, or what race or ethnicity we were, we were united as one American family.
We were also united in our resolve to protect our nation and to bring those who committed this vicious attack to justice. We quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda -- an organization headed by Osama bin Laden, which had openly declared war on the United States and was committed to killing innocents in our country and around the globe. And so we went to war against al Qaeda to protect our citizens, our friends, and our allies.
Over the last 10 years, thanks to the tireless and heroic work of our military and our counterterrorism professionals, we’ve made great strides in that effort. We’ve disrupted terrorist attacks and strengthened our homeland defense. In Afghanistan, we removed the Taliban government, which had given bin Laden and al Qaeda safe haven and support. And around the globe, we worked with our friends and allies to capture or kill scores of al Qaeda terrorists, including several who were a part of the 9/11 plot.
Yet Osama bin Laden avoided capture and escaped across the Afghan border into Pakistan. Meanwhile, al Qaeda continued to operate from along that border and operate through its affiliates across the world.
And so shortly after taking office, I directed Leon Panetta, the director of the CIA, to make the killing or capture of bin Laden the top priority of our war against al Qaeda, even as we continued our broader efforts to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat his network.
Then, last August, after years of painstaking work by our intelligence community, I was briefed on a possible lead to bin Laden. It was far from certain, and it took many months to run this thread to ground. I met repeatedly with my national security team as we developed more information about the possibility that we had located bin Laden hiding within a compound deep inside of Pakistan. And finally, last week, I determined that we had enough intelligence to take action, and authorized an operation to get Osama bin Laden and bring him to justice.
Today, at my direction, the United States launched a targeted operation against that compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. A small team of Americans carried out the operation with extraordinary courage and capability. No Americans were harmed. They took care to avoid civilian casualties. After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body.
For over two decades, bin Laden has been al Qaeda’s leader and symbol, and has continued to plot attacks against our country and our friends and allies. The death of bin Laden marks the most significant achievement to date in our nation’s effort to defeat al Qaeda.
Yet his death does not mark the end of our effort. There’s no doubt that al Qaeda will continue to pursue attacks against us. We must –- and we will -- remain vigilant at home and abroad.
As we do, we must also reaffirm that the United States is not –- and never will be -– at war with Islam. I’ve made clear, just as President Bush did shortly after 9/11, that our war is not against Islam. Bin Laden was not a Muslim leader; he was a mass murderer of Muslims. Indeed, al Qaeda has slaughtered scores of Muslims in many countries, including our own. So his demise should be welcomed by all who believe in peace and human dignity.
Over the years, I’ve repeatedly made clear that we would take action within Pakistan if we knew where bin Laden was. That is what we’ve done. But it’s important to note that our counterterrorism cooperation with Pakistan helped lead us to bin Laden and the compound where he was hiding. Indeed, bin Laden had declared war against Pakistan as well, and ordered attacks against the Pakistani people.
Tonight, I called President Zardari, and my team has also spoken with their Pakistani counterparts. They agree that this is a good and historic day for both of our nations. And going forward, it is essential that Pakistan continue to join us in the fight against al Qaeda and its affiliates.
The American people did not choose this fight. It came to our shores, and started with the senseless slaughter of our citizens. After nearly 10 years of service, struggle, and sacrifice, we know well the costs of war. These efforts weigh on me every time I, as Commander-in-Chief, have to sign a letter to a family that has lost a loved one, or look into the eyes of a service member who’s been gravely wounded.
So Americans understand the costs of war. Yet as a country, we will never tolerate our security being threatened, nor stand idly by when our people have been killed. We will be relentless in defense of our citizens and our friends and allies. We will be true to the values that make us who we are. And on nights like this one, we can say to those families who have lost loved ones to al Qaeda’s terror: Justice has been done.
Tonight, we give thanks to the countless intelligence and counterterrorism professionals who’ve worked tirelessly to achieve this outcome. The American people do not see their work, nor know their names. But tonight, they feel the satisfaction of their work and the result of their pursuit of justice.
We give thanks for the men who carried out this operation, for they exemplify the professionalism, patriotism, and unparalleled courage of those who serve our country. And they are part of a generation that has borne the heaviest share of the burden since that September day.
Finally, let me say to the families who lost loved ones on 9/11 that we have never forgotten your loss, nor wavered in our commitment to see that we do whatever it takes to prevent another attack on our shores.
And tonight, let us think back to the sense of unity that prevailed on 9/11. I know that it has, at times, frayed. Yet today’s achievement is a testament to the greatness of our country and the determination of the American people.
The cause of securing our country is not complete. But tonight, we are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to. That is the story of our history, whether it’s the pursuit of prosperity for our people, or the struggle for equality for all our citizens; our commitment to stand up for our values abroad, and our sacrifices to make the world a safer place.
Let us remember that we can do these things not just because of wealth or power, but because of who we are: one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Thank you. May God bless you. And may God bless the United States of America.
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| | | 111 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 03, 2011, 11:34
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I guess it me just being a cynic but i find it awful convenient that they were video taping the event and to build a bit on your point aren't you curious if there are other videos out there of failed operations?
Good old fashioned hard work broke this one.
agreed, allot of the people who deserve the real credit will never be recognized for there efforts. while the policitians are looking for their 15 seconds, we will never know about the guy who has probably been sitting out side the mansion photographing everyone who came and went well remain anonomsous.
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| | | 112 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 03, 2011, 11:40
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Interesting that there is no mention of any of any of his other victims, the guy has been public enemy number one since 98.
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| | | 113 | Boldwin
ID: 5421219 Tue, May 03, 2011, 12:09
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A neighbor reported there had been a stranger knocking on doors in the neighborhood including OBL's, asking about buying property and about the neighborhood.
Now there was a dangerous job.
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| | | 114 | Great One
ID: 574139 Tue, May 03, 2011, 12:10
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So you expect to see video of all the failed attempts? What kind of sense does that make? I am waiting breathlessly to watch a drone plane fly around for hours on end looking for him...
let me watch Sportscenter to see a guy pop out to the catcher in the 2nd, and a pitcher throwing over to 1st to hold a runner... thats where its at... I am sure the public doesn't want to see that dramatic walk off HR.
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| | | 115 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Tue, May 03, 2011, 12:23
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Oh, and he was very much against the Iraq War.
Because that matters? Nice way to spin what was a good post.
don't take it out of context. it was simply to add to the complexities of individuals. this was a man who was against the Iraq war, yet gave up millions, and his life, for the war in Afghanistan.
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| | | 117 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, May 03, 2011, 12:52
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#111: I'm not aware of there being a video of the event. I've only seen photos.
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| | | 118 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, May 03, 2011, 12:53
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#116: Sounds like a desperate attempt in casting about for wedges.
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| | | 119 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Tue, May 03, 2011, 13:01
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Fair point if it is in fact the same group. I'd be interested in the differences in deployment of that unit under the two administrations.
Side note, isn't it time the right stops categorizing a president as "staunchly anti-war" after supporting war in Afghanistan prior to entering national politics, expanding the campaign there once inaugurated, assisting a rebellion against a terrorism-sponsoring head of state and successfully ordering the killing OBL of after succeeding a president who failed at that endeavor for over 7 years, diverted funds and military and intelligence resources to another war and then declared in that time that he doesn't even think about OBL any more?
BHO is no friend to ideological pacifists. Who does the political right think they're fooling by painting him that way?
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| | | 120 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 03, 2011, 14:44
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I thought i saw one on TV but I maybe mistaken.
So you expect to see video of all the failed attempts? What kind of sense does that make?
i meant in terms of the president et al sitting around. not of the actual mission.
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| | | 121 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Tue, May 03, 2011, 15:37
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re 111, they weren't video-taping the mission for broadcast purposes.
Live video/audio feeds are provided for command and control purposes. In this case, that was then sat-fed to the WH Situation Room, wherein Sr Security personnel could observe the mission as it progressed.
The taping, will no doubt be evaluated in a series of after-action reviews and debriefings, wherein "lessons learned" will be recorded and teaching methods revised to include certain elements learned from this operation.
Doubtless, there exists hundreds if not thousands of such video/audio recordings. But unless you hold a Top Secret security clearance and can demonstrate a military "need to know", you'll never see any of them.
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| | | 122 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Tue, May 03, 2011, 15:58
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Looking at the proliferation of helmet mounted cameras I don't find it surprising that video footage is available. I also agree with Sarge that it will not see the light of day in the next 50 years, if ever at all.
I doubt that they schedule the President to attend, but he has the option to sit in, when he wants, or during a critical mission. At first I found it curious that he appeared to be sitting in a corner, out of the way. But, that probably is by design, as he is there only as an observer, not to issue orders.
I'm not sure if assassination mission is strictly correct. I would surprised if the mission parameters were written that way, and not to say that he was to be apprehended and brought back if possible. The unwritten command was, don't bring him back alive, but I have a hard time believing that someone, other than the President, signed an assassination order for OBL.
I didn't vote for him, but for anyone on the right to criticize him for not being bold and taking action is simply wrong on this one. I applaud Obama for being bold and taking a chance. This could have been a huge international incident for him.
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| | | 123 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 03, 2011, 17:22
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I was referring to picture/possible video of them watching the video. of course mission leaders are watching video of missions, but are they themselves usually being video taped?
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| | | 124 | C1-NRB
ID: 5625339 Tue, May 03, 2011, 17:26
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Yes. Everything Frick said in paragraphs 3 & 4. And 1, too for that matter.
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| | | 125 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, May 03, 2011, 18:10
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| | | 126 | Boldwin
ID: 7412318 Tue, May 03, 2011, 19:16
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I applaud Obama for being bold and taking a chance. This could have been a huge international incident for him.
Who exactly is denying that?
The town he was in was a Pashtun stronghold tending to be loyal to the Taliban and OBL. No one could have been sure the military complex there wasn't aware of OBL's presence and more or less supportive. I can see that as being potentially dicey. I also can't imagine any USA president not making that call but I don't think anyone wants to take that away from him.
The criticisms are about the contradictions between Obama's war positions before election and after. I get that people want to ignore that on the left. They are for the most part their own contradictions, but they have to be aware that there is sizable and noteworthy contradiction and irony there. I think that changes things. His proper response. Our proper response. I'm going to measure out the kudos carefully.
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| | | 127 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Tue, May 03, 2011, 19:27
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There is doubtless, some degree of "reality" which sets in upon sitting finally in the WH.As has been stated before, recently and which you argued with, it is entirely possible to oppose the war and yet support the troops. Maybe because Obama is a Dem, but yu refuse to acknowledge that he is putting the troops needs ahead of his own wants. You truly are B, one sorry individual when it comes to your eagerness to pass condemnation upon those on the left.
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| | | 128 | Boldwin
ID: 7412318 Tue, May 03, 2011, 19:30
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Maybe if they were just a tiny bit reality based...
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| | | 129 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, May 03, 2011, 20:03
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Your condemnation? Agreed.
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| | | 130 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Tue, May 03, 2011, 20:06
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Who exactly is denying that?
The most common recycled post on facebook today:"Let's be clear on this: OBAMA did NOT kill Bin Laden. An American soldier, who Obama just a few weeks ago was debating on whether or not to PAY, did. Obama just happened to be the one in office when our soldiers finally found OBL and took him out. This is NOT an Obama victory, but an AMERICAN victory!! REPOST IF YOU AGREE!!!AMEN!!!!!!!!!!" The criticisms are about the contradictions between Obama's war positions before election and after.
What contradictions!? This exact scenerio was presented to him during a Democratic debate in 2008 and he was skewered by his opponents on both sides of the aisle for saying he'd take out bin Laden unilaterally. The only people on the right who weren't calling that the most naive thing they'd ever heard were the ones who scoffed and dismissed him as a terrorist appeaser talking from the other side of his mouth.
He did exactly what he said he'd do and now there's not a person in this country who isn't islamist or committed pacifist who thinks he did the wrong thing, including the ones who refuse to extend him a shred of credit for it.
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| | | 131 | Boldwin
ID: 7412318 Tue, May 03, 2011, 20:12
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See #91
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| | | 132 | Boldwin
ID: 7412318 Tue, May 03, 2011, 20:15
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This exact scenerio was presented to him during a Democratic debate in 2008 and he was skewered by his opponents on both sides of the aisle for saying he'd take out bin Laden unilaterally.
Before the election he was promising the troops would be long gone, not sweeping Pakistan for OBL.
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| | | 133 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Tue, May 03, 2011, 20:20
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Before the election he was promising the troops would be long gone
Long gone from where? From Afghanistan? From the hunt for OBL?
Your memory is failing you and your agenda, old man.
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| | | 134 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, May 03, 2011, 20:27
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Exactly.
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| | | 135 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Tue, May 03, 2011, 20:46
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#125 is brilliance.
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| | | 136 | Boldwin
ID: 7412318 Tue, May 03, 2011, 20:51
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Well researching this he promised an early surge from Iraq to Afghanistan and it looks like he was very firm on leaving Afghanistan before his re-election campaign.
But wasn't he against Afghanistan before he was for it? The left spent so much time trashing the Iraq and Afghanistan wars it seems inconceivable you can hide a pro-war position among all those code pink rallies. That is taking talking out of both sides to a new level. Explain to me how he talked the anti-war movement down off their ledge.
Where was the 'let's surge in Afghanistan' crowd on this board at the time?
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| | | 137 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, May 03, 2011, 21:06
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Time after time after time in the campaign, he promised to withdraw troops from Iraq and move them into Afghanistan, where the "real fight" against terror existed.
This isn't hard stuff. He promised. He delivered.
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| | | 138 | Boldwin
ID: 7412318 Tue, May 03, 2011, 21:13
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PD
You know the sentiment on this board was that both wars were stupid quagmires to be ended soonest, win lose or abject humiliation, waste the effort, cut and run.
It was never by any stretch of the imagination, 'let's surge and win'. I think it's a real coup on his part he managed to keep the anti-war movement pacified, which during the Bush years was pretty much the entire Dem party.
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| | | 139 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Tue, May 03, 2011, 21:19
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All my liberal friends in California feel Obama has betrayed them with regard to war, at least the ones who regularly post on Facebook.
I tend to agree with them, although the bin Laden thing is a whole different ballgame. History may have played out quite differently had Carter's rescue attempt of the hostages in Iran been successful.
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| | | 140 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, May 03, 2011, 21:23
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#138: Sorry, but you simply cannot back away from a statement of yours so recently made. The criticisms are about the contradictions between Obama's war positions before election and after.
I realize you now want to make this about what people on this board was saying about the wars, since they appear to be an easier target.
Your point was about Obama's positions. About which (surprise!) you are dead wrong. Inconvenient, I'll give you.
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| | | 141 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Tue, May 03, 2011, 21:35
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All the article in 136 offers is the following quote from Obama, "an end to the Afghan war." The only context possibly provided (depending on how you take their wording) is that he said it in 2007.
You've had a really rough couple of weeks at this forum, Boldy.
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| | | 142 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Tue, May 03, 2011, 21:56
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CNN 7/20/08: Sen. Barack Obama said Sunday that United States needs to focus on Afghanistan in its battle against terrorism.
"The Afghan government needs to do more. But we have to understand that the situation is precarious and urgent here in Afghanistan. And I believe this has to be our central focus, the central front, on our battle against terrorism," Obama said Sunday on CBS' "Face the Nation."
"I think one of the biggest mistakes we've made strategically after 9/11 was to fail to finish the job here, focus our attention here. We got distracted by Iraq," he said.
Obama said troop levels must increase in Afghanistan.
"For at least a year now, I have called for two additional brigades, perhaps three," he told CBS. "I think it's very important that we unify command more effectively to coordinate our military activities. But military alone is not going to be enough."
"We need a sense of urgency and determination. We need urgency because the threat from the Taliban and al Qaeda is growing and we must act; we need determination because it will take time to prevail. But with the right strategy and the resources to back it up, we will get the job done," they said in the statement.
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| | | 143 | Boldwin
ID: 7412318 Tue, May 03, 2011, 22:20
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Well heck, what was the point of all those poor innocent posterboards plastered with 'Bush-in-a-Hitler-mustache' thru no fault of their own if you were all gonna become the rah rah let's win in Afghanistan party? We coulda saved us five years of liberals foaming at the mouth over Bush's wars and God knows how much Dave Hall bandwidth.
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| | | 144 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Tue, May 03, 2011, 22:29
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Since your onset dementia and abject laziness rob you of any historical context of this forum's Afghanistan dynamic, I'll fill you in.
Since late 2002, around the time that you proudly declared that "we can walk and chew gum" (still one of my all-time favorite Badwin quotes) most of the left side of this fourm has been furious with President Bush for diverting our resources (funding, troops, intelligence) from the fight against the people who attacked us on 9/11 to a war he started based on false pretenses. This has been repeated over and over, ad nauseum, by the majority of us, for almost a decade now.
I have no idea why it comes as such a shocking revelation to you now.
Where was the 'let's surge in Afghanistan' crowd on this board at the time?
I should ask you where you were for the past 8 years while the entire left side of this board was begging for a greater focus on Afghanistan.
Run a forum search for 'Afghanistan' and thumb through what almos every one of us has been saying since we picked a fight in Iraq.
The first thread I looked at was the 2008 Candidates thread:
#140 PD (2/12/07): I think you are probably right--there is a propoganda value in the US leaving Iraq.
This can be overcome (IMO) by an actual plan of attack against actual al-Qaeda terrorists. We need to get back into Afghanistan, for instance and reclaim that country. Then finally track down bin Laden.
Boikin next post: PD you are right about afghanistan, a place where we probably can atually help the people too. It is funny how little afghanistan is mentioned now. Any theory why that is? From what i have seen/read is that we are not doing so good there have lost ground.
Want more proof, do your own research.
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| | | 145 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Tue, May 03, 2011, 22:56
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is that as close as you are able to get, to admitting you dont have a leg to stand on? I am beginning to truly pity you B. Stubborn self-righteous arrogance, will not ultimately serve you well.
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| | | 147 | Boldwin
ID: 7412318 Tue, May 03, 2011, 23:01
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Someone locate where the hero of the left, Cindy Sheehan was informed by the left that she was no longer needed, go home, shut up. I want to read that one.
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| | | 148 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Tue, May 03, 2011, 23:09
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History may have played out quite differently had Carter's rescue attempt of the hostages in Iran been successful.
I've been thinking about that a lot these two days. Especially the weird coincidence that in both actions, a helicopter crashed.
Carter's doom was sealed when that helicopter crashed. Obama's succeeded despite it. Two terms, baby, book it.
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| | | 149 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Tue, May 03, 2011, 23:16
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From the now deleted thread titled, "Don't mess with Mom: I'm with Cindy!" (which actually contained far more discussion about the justification for the Iraq War than it did about Cindy Shehan)
See posts: 2, 5 and 109.
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| | | 150 | Building 7
ID: 413432813 Tue, May 03, 2011, 23:53
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link
no-hard-evidence-connecting-bin-laden-to-9-11
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| | | 151 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, May 04, 2011, 00:06
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And there *is* hard evidence linking the destruction of WTC's Building 7 to the government...?
:)
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| | | 152 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Wed, May 04, 2011, 00:44
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You know the sentiment on this board was that both wars were stupid quagmires to be ended soonest, win lose or abject humiliation, waste the effort, cut and run.
simply not true. again. simply not true.
some of those who lean left felt that way, but most of us (like myself), felt Iraq was unnecessary, but Afghanistan was absolutely necessary, and more efforts should be focused there - anything posted here to the contrary is yet another work of fiction.
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| | | 153 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Wed, May 04, 2011, 09:55
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Sometimes I get the feeling that Baldwin spends more time building giant, liberal strawmen then he does knocking them down.
And it's not that I think he doesn't believe in them. Everybody has to have their Easter Bunnies, I guess.
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| | | 154 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 04, 2011, 10:32
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let the next debate begin, is time to leave Afghanistan? I think it is clear that many hear at least to some degree have associated the Afghan war has been about hunting down Bin Laden and now he is dead.
One thing that has come from all this is that Pakistan is clearly playing both sides. It would seem they enjoy the war for the money it brings in from the US, insert conspiracy theories about why protecting Bin Laden has brought them billions, but at the same time they realize that the US will leave eventually and when they do they want be the afghan puppet master. What this means for us leaving, I don't know.
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| | | 155 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Wed, May 04, 2011, 10:39
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We've known that since Muharraf was running the place. Our best chance for an honest anti-terrorism government there probably died when Benizir Bhutto was assassinated as Musharraf was being pushed out.
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| | | 156 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Wed, May 04, 2011, 10:40
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There are I think, strong arguments to be made both ways.
Our original purpose in going into Afghanistan, was the refusal of the then governing Taliban to hand him over and cease in harboring terrorists. Both of those reasons, no longer exist. (The Taliban does yes, but not as the governing body of Afghanistan.)
The unfortunate truth though, is that if we up and pull stakes, the Taliban is quite likely to retake their former position within Afghanistan. While this would be an obviously bad thing for the Afghani people, i think it would be worse for the global stage in that they harbored terrorists before, what would make us believe they wouldnt again?
So, do we stay in some meaningful numbers, theoretically to stabilize and prevent a Taliban resurgence; or do we leave and allow Afghanistan to either sink or swim re the Taliban, on its own?
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| | | 157 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Wed, May 04, 2011, 11:10
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Certainly requires a closer look at progress than I've taken in some time.
The Taliban won't be exterminated. Anyone hanging on to that objective should remove the idea from their heads. They probably can't even be effectively marginalized. In fact our continued presence there probably ensures that as much as any other single factor.
I believe the goal is to establish Afghani security forces strong enough to counter the Taliban threat and reliable enough to keep an eye on international-minded terrorists. In recent months the administration has touted the advanced effectiveness of Afghani security forces but there's no telling off the cuff how honest that propaganda is.
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| | | 158 | walk
ID: 348442710 Wed, May 04, 2011, 11:12
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And add to #156 sarge, the Afhani presence to help, in part, prevent terrorists from destabilizing Pakistan.
However, I think, the meaningful #s required to prevent a taliban resurgence and haven for terrorists is just not economically sustainable. If 25 other countries gave troops and $ and resources, then maybe, but an infinite active military presence in Afghanistan does not seem feasible.
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| | | 159 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Wed, May 04, 2011, 11:25
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agreed walk. If nothing else, I think we can safely assume that as fact, given the Soviet experience.
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| | | 160 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Wed, May 04, 2011, 11:28
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There's this too - one of the main objectives of the Taliban is to see foreign/infidel forces out of their holy lands.
Its a catch-22. They aren't going to go away just because we do (they have other objectives). But by not going away we are adding more fuel to their fire. Kind of stirring the pot, so to speak.
But by pulling out and going away, they are being left unchecked to go after otehr objectives.
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| | | 161 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Wed, May 04, 2011, 11:45
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At some point we have to trust the Afghanis to keep there own house. All we can do at this point is our best to train and prepare them for that responsibility.
One point Boldwin has made over the years which I strongly disagreed with at the time but have since come around on is that there are many opportune places around the globe - particularly in southern Asia and eastern Africa - for a terrorist network to set up shop with reasonable safety. Even if we were to kill every last taliban member and sympathizer in Afghanistan, there are plenty of lawless regions and failed states where they could thrive unchecked.
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| | | 162 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, May 04, 2011, 11:54
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Well, at least she's consistent:
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| | | 163 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Wed, May 04, 2011, 12:16
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I heard someone, probably on one of the Sunday talk shows, express the sentiment that the Taliban should be encouraged to engage in the democratic process. That might sound all well and good. It's just that no matter how sincere they may conceivably one day become in that direction, the American right would never agree to it. But realistically, (seeing as how they are not going to disappear), it could be an option worth considering.
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| | | 164 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Wed, May 04, 2011, 12:28
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good gawd PD...Obama, Obama, Obama...cant she read?
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| | | 165 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Wed, May 04, 2011, 12:31
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They all look alike to her.
(Too soon?)
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| | | 167 | walk
ID: 348442710 Wed, May 04, 2011, 14:44
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NYT, Obama will not disclose photos
Another reason why I support this President. This is reason, rational approach. More harm than good would come from such disclosure...it would appease a low-brow mentality, and inflame a lower-brow mentality. Take the high road here.
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| | | 168 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Wed, May 04, 2011, 16:50
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How about they release the alleged pictures, and if you don't want to look at them you don't have to.
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| | | 169 | Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616 Wed, May 04, 2011, 16:59
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Nah, how about they set up a website where you pay $100 to catch a glimpse of the photos, click A if you want the $100 to go towards replacing the Patriot missiles we launched in Libya, click B if you want the $100 to go to Planned Parenthood to educate women about their health?
If you don't want to see the photos, you don't have to pay...
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| | | 170 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Wed, May 04, 2011, 18:05
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How about the simple truth...releasing the photos achieves nothing and cause problems.
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| | | 171 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Wed, May 04, 2011, 18:33
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ding, ding, we have a winner in #170.
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| | | 172 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Thu, May 05, 2011, 05:49
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Here is something else strange about this whole raid and how it went down that I haven't heard talked about.
So now we have heard that Osama was not armed, so clearly was no match for highly trained and armed Navy seals.
Yet they choose to execute him.
Now I understand some of the reasons, security back home if you bring him in alive, terrorist reprisals to try to free him, long and difficult trial all those things we can understand (Although killing him could bring the same reprisals)
But consider this. We are in an ongoing war in Afghanistan against his very own army. He was the single largest source of information that could be used to aid our soldiers. What a goldmine of information he must have been full of, names of people, locations where they are hiding, myriad of details about their capabilities, tactics, personnel etc.
We don't want that?
That does not make one bit of sense. The leader of the army we have been fighting for close to a decade is in our hands, full of information. We find him unarmed with full capability to bring him in alive and we don't seize on that opportunity? For intel, for questioning, for data mining???
I know based on accusations against him, an easy case can be made he deserved to die, but would the military and our government really not be thrilled with the gold mine of information that could be water boarded out of him?
Doesn't make any sense. As usual.
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| | | 173 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Thu, May 05, 2011, 08:22
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I think it is easy with hindsight to say, "Why kill him, he was unarmed?" If you were the soldier who is approaching him, how do you know he doesn't have a gun on him? Or what about a bomb or grenade? This is the leader of a group that is very willing to suicide bomb. Could they have made more of an attempt to capture him? Probably. But, I'm not going to criticize the actions that resulted in no deaths on their part.
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| | | 174 | Tree
ID: 16329157 Thu, May 05, 2011, 08:28
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Yet they choose to execute him.
numerous reports have said the SEALS who shot him saw him going for a gun.
Doesn't make any sense. As usual.
death rarely makes sense. must of anything related to 9/11 is senseless. it's the nature of mass murder.
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| | | 175 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Thu, May 05, 2011, 08:49
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Not a single person from Team 6 died. bin Laden is dead and no longer a threat. He was up, running and in the middle of a firefight. I'm not going to second guess a single one of those men on that team.
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| | | 176 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Thu, May 05, 2011, 09:16
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numerous reports have said the SEALS who shot him saw him going for a gun.
that's actually not true, the most recent statements coming from the White House describing the event have not stated that and they have clarified he was unarmed but "resisting".
I'm not going to second guess a single one of those men on that team.
I'm not second guessing because I don't think he was shot, I am just continuing to build my case he wasn't alive in the first place.
In any case these seals are extreme pros and if they were told to bring him back live if at all possible they would have done so. Strange that isn't what they were told considering he would be a goldmine of intel and knowledge to help their fellow soldiers back in Afghanistan.
But everyone just believes what big brother tells them.
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| | | 177 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, May 05, 2011, 09:28
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he would be a goldmine of intel and knowledge to help their fellow soldiers back in Afghanistan.
That may or may not be true. Bin Laden has been elevated to mythological status, but most analysts feel he's more of a spiritual figurehead than an actual operations director. Even when talking about 9/11, it's Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who's considered the "mastermind."
I'm not sure how much sway Bin Laden would have with the Taliban, other than moral support as a common enemy to the West.
There's a lot more symbolism associated with Bin Laden than nuts and bolts international terrorist operations.
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| | | 178 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Thu, May 05, 2011, 09:32
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177 - Keep it up PV and I'm going to have to post that I agree with you. Scary thought. That isn't supposed to happen. But good post.
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| | | 179 | Boldwin
ID: 7412318 Thu, May 05, 2011, 09:49
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The one thing we can be sure of is that OBL was not reaching for a gun. So it is indeed odd anyone would have made that up, and yet someone did.
OBL assuming he was there and I want to believe it so bad, I tend to, was in a 40 minute firefight and I don't think he had to spend 40 minutes holding his wife in front of him in case she tried to escape. He either had a gun virtually the entire time or he wasn't there.
Barring the unlikely event that the team managed to cut OBL off from his weapons when they burst in initially and that would have been some miraculous intel and/or good fortune involved if that were true.
I'm not going to get as worked up as Hannity over this point but I am amazed that 'the official version of events' and the 'official response to obvious questions' and the policy on how to handle all the obvious decisions [ie. should we release pictures] weren't all hammered out innitially and in advance where possible.
Just from a PR [what were his handlers thinking] angle, Obama would have been able to strike a better pose and not end up with the overall image of this thing as Alfred E. Newman sticking his head at an angle across Bush's 'Mission Accomplished' banner.
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| | | 180 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, May 05, 2011, 09:53
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#177: I think that's largely true, and why there will be no real blowback, IMO, for the raid.
But the long-term bonus to the raid is the capture of the computers and paperwork.
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| | | 181 | Razor
ID: 172252412 Thu, May 05, 2011, 09:55
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There was not a 40-minute firefight. The entire mission took 40 minutes, but the majority of that was spent collecting evidence after they took control of the compound.
I do not care if Bin Laden was armed or unarmed.
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| | | 182 | Great One
ID: 574139 Thu, May 05, 2011, 10:11
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Holder looks like Norman Smiley.
Significant intel obtained...
The official, who declined to be identified because the person is not authorized to speak publicly, said the material contained on about five computers, 100 remote electronic storage devices, such as flash drives, and 10 hard drives is one of the "most significant in the history of the war on terror."
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| | | 183 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, May 05, 2011, 10:13
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Oh no I think I am being sold on Nerves' theory that he was dead already or at least they were not given orders to take him alive. I guess the person who should be worried now is Gadhafi as a hit squad seems to be coming his way next.
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| | | 184 | Boldwin
ID: 7412318 Thu, May 05, 2011, 10:21
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the majority of that was spent collecting evidence - Razor
Ok, good point. I hadn't read that yet.
at least they were not given orders to take him alive
This was the last guy in the world who would put his hands up to avoid getting shot. If he even slightly meant anything he ever said, he was literally praying to die fighting. And I literally mean literally.
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| | | 185 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Thu, May 05, 2011, 11:15
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Saw a headline yesterday saying the clarification was that the SEAL(s) who shot him thought he was reaching for a weapon.
I'm sure these guys had a much higher degree of weapons training and experience than the highly specialized elite NYPD unit that shot unarmed Amadu Diallo, whom that group believed was reaching for a weapon. But then as far as I know bin Laden was shot once, compared with something like 50 bullets that hit Diallo.
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| | | 186 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, May 05, 2011, 11:24
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Saw a headline yesterday saying the clarification was that the SEAL(s) who shot him thought he was reaching for a weapon.
Interesting since they said he was shot by 2 people once in the chest once in the head.
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| | | 187 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Thu, May 05, 2011, 11:41
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Considering the Diallo example I offered, I don't think hat sounds particularly unlikely, especially since I'm sure they knew who they were dealing with. The bar for deadly force was far lower than your typical residence sweep, I'm quite sure.
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| | | 188 | Razor
ID: 172252412 Thu, May 05, 2011, 12:09
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I haven't read all of the chatter out there, but is there any serious discussion about whether Bin Laden should have been shot? I don't there is any justification needed for killing the most wanted terrorist on the planet.
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| | | 189 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Thu, May 05, 2011, 12:17
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Upon entering a room containing combatants or suspected combatants; there is about 1/2 second for the operator to determine and then react to the threat level presented within that room. Occupants who do much anything outside of throw their hands straight up in the air, are highly likely to be shot, twice. Like many PDs, the military also teaches to "double tap". I have no doubt, Osama was shot twice, by one operator, within 1 1/2 seconds of that operators having come through the door. Nor, do I cast any blame at all upon that operator for having done so.
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| | | 190 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Thu, May 05, 2011, 15:31
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Leon Panetta, director of the CIA, revealed there was a 25 minute blackout during which the live feed from cameras mounted on the helmets of the US special forces was cut off. A photograph released by the White House appeared to show the President and his aides in the situation room watching the action as it unfolded. In fact they had little knowledge of what was happening in the compound.
As I said earlier, Obama may have no clue BL wasn't even there. Could all be CIA.
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| | | 191 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Thu, May 05, 2011, 15:59
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What's up with the downed copter?
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| | | 192 | Razor
ID: 172252412 Thu, May 05, 2011, 16:45
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As I said earlier, Obama may have no clue BL wasn't even there. Could all be CIA.
You mean because Obama didn't shoot Bin Laden himself?
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| | | 193 | C1-NRB
ID: 5625339 Thu, May 05, 2011, 16:54
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181: That's what I've felt all along. It was 40 minutes, in and out. And from the looks of the place there was quite a bit of things overturned, gone through, etc. Not to mention that SEALS don't even leave their own footprints behind, let alone any brass or other hardware.
I imagine bin Laden was neutralized within five minutes. The remainder of the "firefight" was securing the facility and emptying it out. And that was with, what, 24 guys operating at peak efficiency.
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| | | 194 | Boldwin
ID: 27435516 Thu, May 05, 2011, 17:37
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"For most of the period there, there was a firefight," a senior defense official told Pentagon reporters in a briefing Monday. - Associated Press
So Boldwin is vindicated about that 40 minute firefight, right? Well that was an early version of the ever changing 'official version of events'."There were many other people who were armed ... in the compound," White House spokesman Jay Carney said Tuesday when asked if bin Laden was armed. "We expected a great deal of resistance and were met with a great deal of resistance." In 'reality' however [otherwise known as today's official version of events] only the famous mystery courier engaged in shooting.
Also word on the helicopter.aviation experts said a helicopter used in the assault appeared to be a stealthier, top secret and never-before-seen version of a routinely used special ops helicopter. The helicopter made a hard landing and was destroyed by the military team at the site, leaving behind wreckage for experts to analyze.
the existence of a helicopter like the one at the scene in Pakistan "was a very well-kept secret."
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| | | 195 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Thu, May 05, 2011, 17:46
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Yeah, from what I've read it, it was a Blackhawk with a bunch of stealth mods. Probably made it heavier, and, along with all those beefy dudes on board, more susceptible to the type of crash it experienced.
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| | | 196 | Boldwin
ID: 27435516 Thu, May 05, 2011, 21:24
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Stealth mods are usually made of lightweight composites.
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| | | 197 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Thu, May 05, 2011, 23:16
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CNN reports tonight, the SEALs were only under fire for a very few minutes, by a courrier outside the building and his brother on the ground floor.
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| | | 198 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Thu, May 05, 2011, 23:45
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If they just velcro them on, it still adds weight. Not that I know dankie about stealth mods. Just repeating what I read (googled).
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| | | 199 | Boldwin
ID: 27435516 Fri, May 06, 2011, 14:04
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bili
It really isn't any different than replacing that heavy solid metal car hood with that spiffy, sporty lightweight carbon composite hood. No velcro even. Thus the lighter/faster.
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| | | 200 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, May 08, 2011, 22:26
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| | | 201 | Boldwin
ID: 23410814 Mon, May 09, 2011, 02:59
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| | | 202 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Mon, May 09, 2011, 08:44
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Re: 200
The 2nd comment in that photo makes me want to cry.
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| | | 204 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Mon, May 09, 2011, 09:45
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Not to make light of ignorance, but I'm guessing some of those kids were 2 or 3 on 9/11.
The world moves fast. If you take 10 years to kill public enemy number 1, there's gonna be people who weren't born or cognizant when he did his notorious deeds.
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| | | 205 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Mon, May 09, 2011, 09:49
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No excuse Bili. My oldest daughter was 7 months old when the attack happened. She knows about the attacks. As do my 7 and 5 year old. I made sure of that this past Sept when I realized that my school district wasn't saying 1 word about the attacks on its anniversary.
If nothing else, bin Ladens death has raised the awareness of what happened nearly 10 years ago for a new generation.
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| | | 206 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, May 09, 2011, 11:33
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re: 203 Ironically the fact that no one knew he was might have been a worse then death for him.
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| | | 207 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Mon, May 09, 2011, 11:45
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I think neglecting to inform our children about the justification for why we attack, invade and occupy foreign countries most likely reinforces much of the world's impression of Americans as abjectly self-absorbed.
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| | | 208 | Boldwin
ID: 23410814 Mon, May 09, 2011, 12:25
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Re: Obama's 'We do these things not because of wealth and power'.
Tho strangely enuff the USA was leading lichtenstein over at Intrade.com as country most likely to kill OBL.
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| | | 209 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Mon, May 09, 2011, 13:24
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Re: 203
Not knowing who bin Laden is/was doesn't seem nearly as obtuse as wanting to know if he was really on Facebook. Most parents shelter their kids from news that they don't feel that they are ready to handle. Where that line is, varies from parent to parent.
Having to ask if bin Laden was really on Facebook is an ask Mr. Obvious question.
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| | | 210 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Mon, May 09, 2011, 15:52
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I told my kids about 9-11. Probably not the same story you told your kids.
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| | | 211 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, May 09, 2011, 16:04
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B7, did you present information from both sides of the topic or was it slanted?
I'd hope you'd present the information that you tend to believe as well as the government provided information and let them decide.
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| | | 212 | Seattle Zen in Forks
ID: 58414915 Mon, May 09, 2011, 16:15
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I told my kids about 9-11...
Yeah, me too. I told them it equals -2. That blew my four year old's mind.
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| | | 214 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Mon, May 09, 2011, 18:38
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MITH I think neglecting to inform our children about the justification for why we attack, invade and occupy foreign countries most likely reinforces much of the world's impression of Americans as abjectly self-absorbed.
I don't know MITH can children really handle it? I mean can they even understand?....that we make up elaborate stories and in fact out right lies (Iraq had WMD) so we can invade and occupy a country in a resource rich and strategically important region?
I think it's best to let them get a bit older before you lay that weight on their shoulders....
Or do you mean just repeat the fairy tales?
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| | | 215 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Mon, May 09, 2011, 19:38
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The one kid thinks I'm crazy, the other one has questions about building 7. They know how to google.
In high school, I made them calculate how long it would take a bowling ball to hit the ground if you drop it from a ~1000 foot building.
Looks like the TSA will be setting up shop for trains now. Chalk up another win for the terrorists.
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| | | 216 | weykool
ID: 343561414 Mon, May 09, 2011, 19:48
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#211
Isnt all information slanted?
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| | | 217 | weykool
ID: 343561414 Mon, May 09, 2011, 20:38
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So now we are coining the term Deathers? Has anyone seen the Long Form Death Certificate?
From Hawaii or Kenya....either one will due.
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| | | 218 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Mon, May 09, 2011, 21:22
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Nerve
High school kids are old enough.
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| | | 219 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Tue, May 10, 2011, 12:49
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Nerve
High school kids are old enough.
I more then agree, I was literally thinking children not teens, and while I was using a sarcastic tone, you know I meant it.
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| | | 220 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Tue, May 10, 2011, 20:20
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Nerve
Putting aside the differences between what you and I believe are likely facts regarding 9/11, if you'd clicked the link in #203, you apparently missed this part:
Yahoo reported that two-thirds of people searching for "Who is Osama Bin Laden?" today were teenagers.
Whatever you think might or might not be too much for children to handle, my opinion is that 13 - 19 year-olds should be familiar by with Osama bin Laden, whether they receive the narrative that I'd give them or one that you or B7 might give them.
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| | | 221 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, May 10, 2011, 22:51
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Is that really evidence of widespread stupidity by teens?
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| | | 222 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Wed, May 11, 2011, 00:37
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I recall similar discussions not long ago, dealing with the changes in the world over the then previous 18 years. How HS grads of that year, had not been born when the Berlin Wall came down for ex. Little doubt, those who lived through the Great Depression, looks upon the self-aggrandizing spending of the 90s and early 21st Century, as irresponsible. I think it's inevitable, those who saw something firsthand, can not understand the naivete/ignorance; of those who came after. (Though for those in their late teens to not comprehend the significance is I think most telling/damning.)
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| | | 223 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Wed, May 11, 2011, 08:31
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Is there a difference between not being aware of an event (Great Depression, 9/11) and not having the event shape your life. My great-grandparents raised my grandmother through the great depression. Some of their habits were shaped by living through the Great Depression, but I was aware of the event. My habits may not have been shaped by it though.
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| | | 224 | Boldwin
ID: 27428117 Wed, May 11, 2011, 08:55
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The kidz like Skrillex these dayz. Not my usual but I must admit there's a time and a place for it.
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| | | 225 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 11, 2011, 11:26
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Yahoo reported that two-thirds of people searching for "Who is Osama Bin Laden?" today were teenagers.
I wish I did not know who he was and why should I care that people do not know who he is. How about this question who was the leader of the attack on pearl harbor?
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| | | 226 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Wed, May 11, 2011, 11:47
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Ignorance is bliss for some. Too many, but that just my opinion.
Don't know the name of the person who led the attack on Pearl Harbor but I know the name of the person regarded as ultimately responsible for it. And I'd bet the overwhelming majority of people born in the same decade as that attack know/knew hirohito's name very well.
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| | | 228 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Wed, May 11, 2011, 12:29
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Admiral Yamato re 225
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| | | 229 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 11, 2011, 13:52
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The point of the question in 225 is that is that every one remembers Hitler but no one remembers Hirohito(he was still alive 20 or so years ago). We get told what is important and despite what we would like the think clearly bin laden is not important for many.
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| | | 230 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Wed, May 11, 2011, 13:59
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Well that's exactly my point boikin. In my opinion bin Laden's identity should be more important than The Jersey Shore casts'.
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| | | 231 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 11, 2011, 14:19
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If you don't mind Mith can I state what I think you are really saying. It is not that you are upset that people do not know who bin laden is, but what upsets you is the information they know instead. If I was to say tell you that most leading cancer researchers did not know who bin laden was you would probably be ok with that, but if i told you that that most watchers of the jersey shore did not know who bin laden was you would be upset by that?
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| | | 232 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, May 11, 2011, 14:27
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#230: Just to be clear, we don't have evidence of this. Certainly, in the age of auto-fill on search engines, finding a lot of the same searches doesn't tell us *anything* about the knowledge level of the people doing the searches, nor their motives.
Might as well say "kids are dumb as stumps because the Wikipedia page on Osama jumped to 7.5 million on May 2nd."
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| | | 233 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, May 11, 2011, 14:27
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Also, the fact that people are seeking this information is a feature, not a bug.
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| | | 234 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Wed, May 11, 2011, 17:42
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can I state what I think you are really saying
I appreciate your impression of what I'm thinking so much more than being told what I think, which is so much more often what I usually get.
That said, I'd be highly dismayed to learn that today's leading cancer researchers didn't know who OBL was.
No, what has me frustrated is the number of parents who don't seem to find it necessary to expose their children to the world around them beyond pop culture. That said, PD makes a very good point in #232 (largely the same point he made in #221) and I should acknowledge that I am arriving at what might be some unfair conclusions.
PD #233 To an extent I think you fall into the same trap I did. Without empirical dissemination of the data, we can't know why they're seeking this info. If they're curious because it's an unfamiliar name they hear repeated on MTV and TMZ, no. Your guess is as good as mine on how many fall under that category and how many just apply (or auto-fill) those search terms to retrieve info for a school assignment.
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| | | 235 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, May 11, 2011, 17:51
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we can't know why they're seeking this info.
Exactly. Yet that hasn't stopped people from using this as a springboard toward bashing the young. If we don't know, we can't draw conclusions to "punditify" upon.
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| | | 236 | J-Bar
ID: 474551121 Wed, May 11, 2011, 22:55
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Or the teens don't know because it has been more important to teach how the U.S. is wrong for waging war in a Moslem country and how profiling is wrong based on the nationality and spiritual beliefs of those involved than the act of 9/11, who was behind it, and their ideology being taught in history class.
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| | | 237 | astade
ID: 78462922 Fri, May 13, 2011, 21:40
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I do find this a bit funny: link
especially, considering the tenants were purportedly conservative muslims (they would only let their wives out if they were fully veiled and in the presence of their husband).
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| | | 238 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Sat, May 14, 2011, 08:24
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I was a little bugged by this Jonah Goldberg post
In particular, this:What I really hope is that they find or “find” some video not just of porn, but of porn starring Osama bin Laden. That would really crush the Mohammed Atta types whose final thoughts were of the woman-free sanctity of his man-panties. How, exactly, does one convincingly fake OBL porn? Maybe I'm tone deaf to conservative elitist humor? The following paragraph is obviously an attempt at humor (that I'd have found hilarious 15 years ago).
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| | | 239 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Sat, May 14, 2011, 08:25
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OK "72 Virgins Gone Wild" is kind of funny.
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| | | 240 | Boldwin
ID: 554221421 Sun, May 15, 2011, 02:39
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If there was ever anything that smacked more of disinformation I dunno. Very suspicious that guys taking religion this seriously are porno stashing lap dance customers. The fact that we enjoy the story so much just tells me what great disinfo it makes if that's the case.
I don't think any of us can wrap our minds around just where a salafist' head is at when it comes to women.
First the oddity that their culture puts women in a bag because apparently they don't think it's even possible for their men to control their lust.
Then none of us can understand what never having any contact with women has on men's culture. I'd link you to some accounts of entire tribes for whom women are for procreation and men are the focus of desire. Their generals lead their troops into tank battles over boys the rival generals are interested in and this is accepted understandable behavior by their troops and superiors. Forget calling me a homophobe long enuff to recognize how mindblowingly bizzare that is.
Slight change of perspective. My wife does internet business all around the world and comes into contact with many muslims. You just would scream laughing at the behavior some of these guys exhibit towards my wife. Understand the experience of freely talking to a woman is heady stuff to them. And they have no experience doing it. And they have no qualms about playing the lothario with the social skills of a 7 yr old. They put on their proper british and chase her around like a schoolboy while she is shooing them away.
So back to OBL's stash. Who knows if it's real and who knows what it did to his head if it was?
Or his wives? 'I have to compete with a new even younger wife every ten years and now I have to compete with that'?
Did he see it as Allah giving him a preview of the 72?
Maybe they see it as posterboard material to build hatred for the west?
The 'West' just can't catch a break. Where's the gratitude? They invent and ship enuff porn and viagra to handle all that appetite...I mean 4 wives and a one handed sex-life. Don't tell me there wasn't viagra in there somewhere.
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| | | 241 | Mith
ID: 123351710 Sun, May 15, 2011, 10:39
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For the record there is Middle Eastern porn.
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| | | 243 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Sun, May 15, 2011, 15:25
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Very little is being said, about what was most likely the real reason for the presence of that porn.
Al Qeada, has long and frequently used porn files, to embed messages being passed from one to another. A simple observation of the file, yields a porn viewing. But the proper keystrokes, yields the embedded message.
The day this porn thing broke,m there were two or three different mentions of this practice but since then, all I have seen/heard have been discussion on the hypocrisy of holding oneself as a religious figurehead and viewing porn.
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| | | 244 | Boldwin
ID: 474281514 Sun, May 15, 2011, 15:31
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For the record there is Middle Eastern porn
Is there a middle East country where that would be legal to make or sell? Lebanon maybe? Who is making it? Considering the aforementioned tank battle, what kind of porn is it/was it?
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| | | 245 | Boldwin
ID: 474281514 Sun, May 15, 2011, 15:34
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I wonder if the 9/11 hijackers who were getting lapdances in Florida beforehand were embedding messages?
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| | | 246 | Boldwin
ID: 474281514 Sun, May 15, 2011, 20:24
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Intense
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| | | 248 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Mon, May 16, 2011, 13:33
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I suspect this "treasure trove" will be used to justify about anything they want in the future. Need a reason to attack some country. Osama was plotting with them, according to the "treasure trove". And how is it they just collected the stuff and had not had time to go thru it.....but they know it's a "treasure trove". Oh. Okay. And it's not a bonanza, jackpot, motherlode, homerun, or a huge stash. But, the supposedly independent news outlets all refer to it as a "treasure trove".
This "treasure trove" will also be used to solve earlier crimes. Those guys at Guantanamo just got screwed. I am sure the "treasure trove" will verify all of the waterboarded information. Loose ends will be wrapped up. We'll see if this 'tresure trove" ever appears in a court of law, where it will be subject to discovery, and a chain of command.
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| | | 249 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, May 16, 2011, 14:30
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I smell a new conspiracy username for B7.
Maybe "Treasure Trove"?
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| | | 250 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, May 16, 2011, 17:16
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Go Empire!
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| | | 251 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Tue, May 17, 2011, 09:45
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More details on the raid.
Navy Times
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| | | 253 | Boldwin
ID: 295311022 Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 16:59
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Life imitates 'The Onion'.
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| | | 254 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 16:45
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A few rumours floating around out there.
1) The helicopter that crashed at the site actually had all the soldiers and Bin Laden (if he was there) on it and everyone died, according to eye witnesses that were interviewed on Pakistan TV but then the whole thing was shut up.
2) The helicopter that crashed a few days ago, with special forces from the same unit that "killed" Bin Laden was an inside job to silence some people who were ready to talk.
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| | | 255 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 17:37
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i heard Jack Ruby's bastard son was the pilot.
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| | | 256 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421 Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 17:43
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Not buying that one, at all.
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| | | 257 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 19:48
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Not buying that one, at all.
I was under the impression you don't ever buy anything except the official line.
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| | | 258 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421 Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 20:17
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Not true. I know enough of how the official line, doesnt ionclude MUCH opf what gets done. I just dont buy this one...too predictable, too obvious.
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| | | 259 | Razor
ID: 33520166 Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 04:38
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I wouldn't put it past the conspiracy theorists to be right on this one. They are actually right 1% of the time or so.
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| | | 260 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Aug 11, 2011, 10:20
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Novelist Brad Thor seems crazy to me.
Best line:
Thor, whom King had introduced as someone “familiar with these types of operations” -- which one can only hope he's regretted by now -- called them "flying IUD's." Surely he meant IED's.
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| | | 261 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 12:49
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1) Navy seals go into a compound in Pakistan to capture/kill Bin Laden
2) A helicopter crashes?malfunctions during the raid but no one is hurt.
2B) An eye witness is interviewed on Pakistan TV claiming he saw the seals get into a helicopter and as it took off it blew up. less then 24 hours later Pakistan government censors the story.
3) Bin Laden is shot and taken on other helicopters, no photo evidence shown public, and then within 12 hours given a respectful Muslim burial , conveniently at sea and is now shark bait. No way to prove he was really captured.
4) a month or two later, the largest single loss of life event in the 10 year war takes place in Afghanistan when a helicopter with 30 plus navy seals on board, an they all die, and they just happen to be the same unit that captured Bin Laden.
So lets review, we captured Bin Laden, but no proof. A helicopter crashed during the raid but no one was harmed. The closest people to the operation are killed a month or two later.
The longer one lives the more one notices how many strange coincidences there are in life.
Not saying it proves anything, just saying there are so many of these building 7's it's ridiculous to mock people who point them out as some on this board would do.
Finally I posted here a few hours after the event I didn't buy it. Still don't.
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| | | 262 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 12:54
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I dunno. I'm not at all sure what you think happened, but we're fighting three wars right now, and all units (including that one) face danger every single day.
US Navy put out a release noting that none of those on the helicopter were in the Bin Laden raid. Take that for what you will.
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| | | 263 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421 Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 13:36
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2B) An eye witness is interviewed on Pakistan TV claiming he saw the seals get into a helicopter and as it took off it blew up. less then 24 hours later Pakistan government censors the story.
Really? The crashed bird, was predominantly inside the compound. How did any eyewitness, from outside the compound, see anything that went on INSIDE the compound? Or was the eyewitness Superman and possessed of X-Ray vision?
Someone on Pakistani TV, CLAIMS to have seen something; and you immediately give him full credence? Sorry NC; I cant.
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| | | 264 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 14:02
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The longer one lives the more one notices how many strange coincidences there are in life.
Not saying it proves anything,
Correct. None of that is proof of anything. Its a red flag that there may be cause to do more investigation. Its a red flag that there may be more than meets the eye. But it is not proof that anything is there.
I don't begrudge anybody who looks at that information cross-eyed and says, "wait a minute, let me look at this closer."
What gets mocked are the people who take those red flags and hold them up as absolute proof and evidence of their theories.
Big difference between the two.
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| | | 265 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 14:26
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He watched the event from the roof of his house, not that your opinion will ever change.
link
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| | | 266 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 02:51
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Really? The crashed bird, was predominantly inside the compound. How did any eyewitness, from outside the compound, see anything that went on INSIDE the compound? Or was the eyewitness Superman and possessed of X-Ray vision?
B7 beat me to it. He literally lived exactly next door which was confirmed by the reporter. He lay prone on his roof during the entire raid and watched (wouldn't you)
Besides Sarge, just because it was in the compound "after" the crash doesn't mean it couldn't have a taken off a certain distance and then fallen back in.
In any case that doesn't matter as he could see over the wall because of the height he was at on the roof.
One again your smart ass "xray vision" comment proves my earlier point, you will mock anything that isn't the government line, even before you have all the facts.
And again, my points don't prove anything except that once again they leave us with so many questions.
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| | | 267 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 02:57
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Someone on Pakistani TV, CLAIMS to have seen something; and you immediately give him full credence? Sorry NC; I cant.
Where do I give it full credence? I just said combined with all the other issues I listed it gives one pause to consider what might have really happened. Particularly when a government I don't trust offers us zero proof.
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| | | 268 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421 Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 12:12
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Not a single military raid I am familiar with (except the landing on Somali beaches where the reporters had landed ahead of the troops), has the Military or the Govt EVER offered up "proof".
I'd venture to guess that 90% of all SEAL missions, you'll never know took place. That the Govt doesnt see fit to provide irrefutable oroof to the citizenry, is not keeping people in the dark, it IS smart military operational doctrine.
I'll let that Pakistani (where the distrust the US Givt even more than you do) have his 15 minutes of fame. I'll applaud the SEALS for their dedication and work, and I'll move on with my life. Was OBL taken alive and then died? I dunno, and quite honestly, I dont care. He's dead, and thats what I wanted him to be, so as far as I'm concerned, its all good.
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| | | 269 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 14:01
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I'd venture to guess that 90% of all SEAL missions, you'll never know took place.
accept this mission we were informed of moments after it happened.
Was OBL taken alive and then died? I dunno, and quite honestly, I dont care. Spoken like a well domesticated sheep.
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| | | 270 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421 Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 14:33
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Of course we were informed of this mission, moments later. The drive behind this mission, was also the drive behind one war in which we have been embroiled for almost a decade now. Ostensibly, though worngly, it/he was also the justification for a 2nd war where we have been embroiled for almost a decade. So yes, this missions after action was publicly shared. That would surprise you...why exactly?
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| | | 271 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 14:41
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we were informed of moments after it happened.
The death of OBL isn't something that would have been kept silent.
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| | | 272 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 16:34
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Someone on Pakistani TV, CLAIMS to have seen something; and you immediately give him full credence? Sorry NC; I cant.
and it was the Pakistani govt who shut the story up less then 24 hours after being reported thus helping the US official line.
The death of OBL isn't something that would have been kept silent.
Completely misses the point I was making but maybe you didn't read he context of Sarges point.
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| | | 273 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 17:38
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While the witness account does disagree with the official government account, I see no reason to question the government account on it's own. And I've seen sworn witness testimony which turned out to be untrue far too often for this guy to cause me to significantly challenge the government's version.
By all means, distrust for the government is healthy but that doesn't require a standard that every time some anonymous person says they witnessed a different version of the event. Especially in a case where believing this guy forces far greater discrepencies with what we know is true than the government line does.
This would have raised an eyebrow for me if al Qaeda or the Taliban or any foreign media were challenging the reports of bin Laden's death, or if someone insane with hate for Obama like James Inhofe questioned the evidence he saw of bin Laden's death, or if the government had claimed that the troops who took part in the raid were the same ones who died in the recent chopper crash, or questions publicly raised by families of soldiers they haven't heard from who might have been involved in the raid. But none of those or any similar discrepencies or logical counter-narratives exist that I know of.
So for me, the government version makes far more sense and therefore trumps this single anonymous foreigner's completely unsupported and rather illogical stand-alone account of what he saw.
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| | | 274 | R9
ID: 2854239 Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 18:36
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There's never going to be proof either way, so arguing about facts seems rather pointless.
Either you believe OBL never existed, or you believe the US Gov killed him a little while ago.
Personally, I see merit in both positions. Thinking purely logically, I have to be suspicious of people who's entire proof of existence is CIA-verified tapes and US Gov press releases. IF the US wanted to fake up an enemy to further its aims, it seems fairly easy to see that they could've pulled it off.
The evidence doesn't remove either possibility, or prove either beyond reasonable doubt. Just imo.
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| | | 277 | Perm Dude
ID: 39961218 Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 10:45
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Former SEAL corrects the "fairy tale" story of the mission.
He's got harsh words all around (including some directed at the White House). Ironic, I think, that he takes people to task for spinning stories about the mission who have no operational experience, then makes the same mistake himself when criticizing the White House on a political decision. But it is an interesting peek at the mission.
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| | | 278 | Building 7
ID: 541057215 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 10:51
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Excerpt from #277:
President Obama stepped up to a podium in the East Room of the White House that night to announce bin Laden’s death. That rapid announcement, explained Pfarrer, posed a major threat to U.S. national security. “There was a choice that night,” Pfarrer told TheDC. “There was a choice to keep the mission secret.” America, Pfarrer explained, could have left things alone for “weeks or months … even though there was evidence left on the ground there … and use the intelligence and finish off al-Qaida.” But Obama’s announcement, he said, “rendered moot all of the intelligence that was gathered from the nexus of al-Qaida. The computer drives, the hard drives, the videocasettes, the CDs, the thumb drives, everything. Before that could even be looked through, the political decision was made to take credit for the operation.”
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| | | 279 | sarge33rd
ID: 31011813 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 14:11
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your point? Or would you SERIOUSLY claim, that any other President would have done any differently? This *IS* American politics we are talking about here.
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| | | 280 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:24
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hmmm....I guess B7 would have written that Obama did the right and correct thing when the rest of the right went bananas had Obama kept the public in the dark for several months about the operation.
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| | | 281 | Razor
ID: 569263121 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:29
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Ya, no. Successfully hunting down and killing the man who haunted the country for ten years needed to be brought to the nation's attention ASAP. The solider's assumption that the intelligence was rendered useless is both unsupported and not balanced against the value of announcing his death to not only Americans, but to the world as a reminder that we will hunt you down no matter how long it takes.
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| | | 282 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:41
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Really it needed to be ASAP? Because if we had waited one day to tell the world they would have like ow man check out those Americans if only they would have found Bin Laden one day sooner I would have taken them serious. Clearly his assassination was clearly staged for maximum public affect.
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| | | 283 | sarge33rd
ID: 381040814 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:47
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clearly, you have no clue what you are talking about.
Even the guy who is taking Obama to task for speaking out, said it was NOT an assassination mission.
Just love it when people with ZERO operational experience, play arm chair QB with this kind of thing.
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| | | 284 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:57
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I an sorry Sarge, who was there and knows everything, lets use the word capture instead. Now, that you are done side tracking things, do you have something relevant to say about how waiting a day would have cost anything and that clearly his capture was clearly staged for maximum public affect.
Finally, even if the mission was not an assassination mission everyone knows there was zero chance he was coming back to America to stand trial.
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| | | 285 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:59
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I'm especially confused by 278. It seems to imply that the remainder of Al-Qaeda would have been completely ignorant to the fact that American commandos stormed their compound, killed Bin Laden, and took a lot of sensitive stuff IF ONLY THE PRESIDENT HADN'T BLABBED ABOUT IT.
Like, I don't know a lot about the communications structure of a major terrorist organization, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that maybe they might have found out about it pretty quickly some other way. Like, when they go knock on the door to visit Bin Laden and there's a week worth of Arabian porn magazines and Domino's Pizza coupons on the front steps and a US helicopter wreckage in the front lawn, that's maybe a sign that's something wrong. Or, you know, Twitter had pretty decent coverage of it.
That's just me speculating though.
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| | | 286 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 16:24
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Clearly his assassination was clearly staged for maximum public affect.
If that were the priority, the confirmation, and possibly the operation itself, would have come as much closer to the election as possible.
How does anyone know that another 18 or 36 hours would have preserved the usefulness of intelligence collected there? American helicopters flying over a residential area and crash landing attracts a lot of attention. I have a hard time believing the word hadn't already spread through the network as Obama was preparing his statement.
Also I have no idea what the intended meaning of "like ow man check out those Americans" is.
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| | | 287 | sarge33rd
ID: 381040814 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 16:41
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284...show me boikin, where I said I was there, or that I knew everything? What I said was, YOU had no idea WTF you were talking about, when you said "Clearly his assassination was clearly staged...". Evidently I was right, since you walked it back to "clearly his capture was...". However, you still hold the entire operation was "staged" as in a hoax or setup for purposes other than those evident from the mission itself. I maintain boikin, you dont know WTF you are talking about. You are inserting your opinion and stating it as fact. In so doing, you prove my very contention.
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| | | 288 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 16:49
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Sarge, tell me where I am stating anything as fact? I am asking a question Really it needed to be ASAP? which clearly you don't have any answer too, thanks again.
Also I have no idea what the intended meaning of "like ow man check out those Americans" is.
I am just saying that no one would have thought any difference if the the event/announcement would have been 1 later, 5 days later or even 5 days earlier.
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| | | 289 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 16:56
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Ya, no. Successfully hunting down and killing the man who haunted the country for ten years needed to be brought to the nation's attention ASAP.
this.
this country would have lost its collective $hit if word came down that OBL was killed six months prior, and it was kept a secret.
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| | | 290 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:00
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That was my first reaction too, 'Oh, I'm pretty sure al qeada woulda found out'. But he was incommunicado. Very. No phones. He was limited to one dead contact with the outside world.
I have doubts they coulda found the contact info and got the drones there in time, but announcing it immediately couldn't have been that useful to Obama. Guess he just wasn't gonna let some leaker steal his thunder no how.
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| | | 291 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:00
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That's probably true, Boikin, but it's wholly unsupported speculation that the timing of the announcement caused useful intelligence to expire. And if that speculation is wrong, I have no problem with informing the American people, especially the loved ones of 3000 murdered Americans, as soon as possible.
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| | | 293 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:17
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The compound was not in a remote location. It was in a residential neighborhood. Can anyone here imagine that scene going down 4 blocks from their house at any time of night and not knowing anying extraordinary was happening? Does anyone here think nobody in the neighborhood knew OBL was there?
just wasn't gonna let some leaker steal his thunder
Ignoring the snark, this is reasonable. Leaks of even good news make the administration look weak, even if they are inevitable. For news as important as that I can see why the President would want to deliver it himself. Insisting on the narrative of the timing as simply intelligence-destroying narcissism is typical partisan bile by false patriots
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| | | 294 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:19
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Yeah it's clear enough this Pfarrer fellow isn't the most reliable source for information.
This is why nobody respects the Daily Caller.
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| | | 295 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125 Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 08:31
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Jesse Ventura was on Piers Morgan and said basically exactly what I said the night of the raid. Ventura is a former Navy seal.
When asked about the Bin Laden raid he said... what I question is this, were we told the truth? I, they lied about Pat Tillman's death, they lied about the rescue of Jessica Lynch, they lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
The conversation continued...
Well, let me ask you a direct question. Do you believe bin Laden is dead?
VENTURA: Yes. I think he's -- he may have been dead for 10 years for all we know. I mean, he had a disease where most doctors said it was fatal within a couple of years. How did this guy manage to live eight? You know he was going around needing dialysis treatment when 9/11 happened? You know?
And yet they tell us he survived that long? I don't know. I'm not privy to the intel anymore. I'm not currently in the military and haven't been for 40 years. But again let me commend the Navy SEALs, they will get the job done. They are the best we have.
MORGAN: But I'm all for conspiracy theories, Jesse, but obviously the Navy SEALs themselves who said that they found bin Laden alive and killed him. You wouldn't question the word (INAUDIBLE) of Navy SEAL?-
(CROSSTALK)
VENTURA: Well, how do you know that -- wait, how do you know that? None of us know the guys that were on this mission. None of us will. And who's to say that helicopter that killed those 18 guys from Team 6 didn't have all the guys on it that got bin Laden? How do we know?
MORGAN: Because --
VENTURA: We will never know. Because that's how secretive Team 6 is.
Piers, you'll never know who the operators were that went on those missions. That's how secretive it is.
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| | | 296 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 05:47
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Yes Virginia, the CIA is monitoring your tweets and facebook. Of course.
Answering questions as diverse as 'which country's populations are most upset by OBL's hit?'.
How do these relate to polling results?
What's going on in that riot outside a USA outpost?
Which country is on the edge of revolt?
Who will China side with in WWIII?McLEAN, Va. – In an anonymous industrial park in Virginia, in an unassuming brick building, the CIA is following tweets -- up to 5 million a day.
At the agency's Open Source Center, a team known affectionately as the "vengeful librarians" also pores over Facebook, newspapers, TV news channels, local radio stations, Internet chat rooms -- anything overseas that anyone can access and contribute to openly.
From Arabic to Mandarin Chinese, from an angry tweet to a thoughtful blog,...
...Yes, they saw the uprising in Egypt coming; they just didn't know exactly when revolution might hit, said the center's director, Doug Naquin.
While most are based in Virginia, the analysts also are scattered throughout U.S. embassies worldwide to get a step closer to the pulse of their subjects. - Vengeful Librarians And another possible location to apply the National Survival Decision Tree
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| | | 297 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 09:36
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The CIA is monitoring that which is published publicly? And a whole 2% of them? Sounds super dangerous.
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| | | 298 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 10:45
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I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you. Scandal!
Mind you, this revelation came two weeks and less than five posts after I pointed out that someone live Twittered the actual US raid on Bin Laden in the first place. It seems pretty likely that at some point some poor schlub has twittered something equally interesting that our enemies were doing instead of us.
I can see the outcries of "how could you not monitor this stuff, IT WAS RIGHT THERE ON TWITTER FOR GOD'S SAKE, OBAMAO WANTS THE TERRORISTS TO WIN" if anything WASN'T monitored there. Pick a lane, guys.
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| | | 299 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 11:39
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I think it's an interesting question how far from just monitoring the internet for 'the wedding *wink* *wink* is tomorrow noon', until they get the entire Total Information Awareness program Poindexter was aiming for before he was *wink* *wink* shut down.
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| | | 300 | sarge33rd
ID: 3010102311 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 12:10
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re 295: Yes, Jesse is a former Navy SEAL. He also says the FEMA Camps are real. I gotta take Mr Ventura, with a HUGE grain of salt.
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| | | 301 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 13:52
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Jesse Ventura is also a former professional wrestler, and one of the best to ever enter the ring.
he's a master carny, and he knows how to "work".
and he knows that there's an entire universe of marks out there for him to work, and make a ton of money for doing it.
i give a lot of credit to Jesse for using the skills he learned in the wrestling business, and become a very rich man applying those skills to the world outside of wrestling.
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| | | 302 | sarge33rd
ID: 3010102311 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 13:53
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Y'know Tree, I hadnt thought about it maybe just being so much "schtick" on his part, but it would seem in character for him to do just that.
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| | | 303 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 13:55
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Thats actually a very interesting perspective Tree. Never gave that part of it much thought. I just always viewed Ventura has a far-right conspiracy theorist borderline-nutzo type. But the fact that he is a performer and may be doing a lot of this as a show is intriguing.
I would think he believes most (or even all) of what he says. But how far he takes his lines of thought and how publicly he takes his defense could easily be a show for the sake of a show.
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| | | 304 | Razor
ID: 09441723 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 13:59
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I think many of the right wing personalities are merely acting the part to make a buck - Coulter, Ventura, Beck and the like.
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| | | 305 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 15:17
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Actually he wasn't exactly a SEAL If I recall correctly but very very close that. I think he believes everything his crew determines at the end of their investigation. He's taken very courageous positions that have hurt other popular entertainers bigtime.
I can't think of any conservative media people doing schtick they don't actually believe in unless you count the 'house conservative' for uber-lib papers and cablenews just there for the false appearance of some semblance of balance. A WHOLE lotta politicians do tho.
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| | | 306 | Building 7
ID: 541057215 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 16:23
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He took his schtick all the way to the Minnesota governor's mansion. I'm hoping he runs as Paul's VP candidate when Paul makes a 3rd party run.
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| | | 307 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 17:27
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I think many of the right wing personalities are merely acting the part to make a buck - Coulter, Ventura, Beck and the like.
i agree with this. but in Ventura's case, he's a highly trained professional. he worked millions of marks before he even entered politics, and he saw that certain audiences were ripe for the picking.
Actually he wasn't exactly a SEAL
he was a member of the Underwater Demolition Team, who were merged with the SEALS 8 years after Ventura (well, James Janos, to be correct) left the navy.
He took his schtick all the way to the Minnesota governor's mansion. I'm hoping he runs as Paul's VP candidate when Paul makes a 3rd party run.
he sure did, and it was a job well done. i actually believe that Ventura believed in what he was doing, and there was no "work" here. he took the advice of an old high school teacher, ran for the mayor of a local township, and defeated the incumbent who had been there something like 30 years.
Ventura's campaign for Governor was well run. for starters, he was one of the first politicians to seriously use the internet to his advantage - i'd wager as history unfolds, he'll be labeled a pioneer.
as for the whole Ventura is a conservative thing, man, where did THAT come from?? he's in favor of gay rights (including gay marriage and gays in the military - once he said he wished there were more gays in the navy when he served, because there would have been less competition for women), abortion rights, heavy funding of public schools, and and the use of medical marijuana.
he also vetoed a bill to require the pledge of allegiance to be said in public schools. he's a big believer in mass transit, and he denounced the US sanctions against Cuba.
hardly a conservative.
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| | | 308 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 17:34
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He's conservative when compared with Razor, but he's more properly called a populist. A populist with considerable common sense so he veers conservative unavoidably.
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| | | 309 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 19:27
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He's conservative when compared with Razor, but he's more properly called a populist. A populist with considerable common sense so he veers conservative unavoidably.
good to know that folks who are pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-medical marijuana, and pro-heavy public school funding have considerable common sense
you'll come around yet.
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| | | 310 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234 Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 00:04
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Yeah, well he never grew out of the, We'll probably die in the next rice paddy so let's go to get one last high and get laid in Phuket before we die.
Which is a common tho immoral sentiment in war.
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| | | 311 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 00:43
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Is that why he doesn't fall neatly into your dichotomy of political classifications?
Maybe the fact that he's not a Republican never entered onto your scale?
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| | | 312 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234 Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 00:59
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Any politician who goes to OWS and sides with them while agreeing with me 80% of the time, doesn't fall neatly into anybodies dichotomy.
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| | | 313 | Nerveclinic
ID: 286461214 Thu, Oct 15, 2015, 13:43
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New York Times article about inaccuracies in the Bin Laden Death Narrative.
link
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