Forum: pol
Page 3546
Subject: The Real Newt Gingrich


  Posted by: Mith - [5631099] Sat, May 14, 2011, 09:59

Classic Republican finger-in-the-wind flipflopper.



Also making the rounds is this terrific little op-ed he wrote in 2007
Personal responsibility extends to the purchase of health insurance as well. Citizens should not be able to cheat their neighbors by not buying insurance, particularly when they can afford it, and expect others to pay for their care when they need it. However, an individual mandate must take one’s income into account, and more importantly, it is an acceptable option only when the larger healthcare system has been fundamentally changed. It is unjust to require an individual to buy into a broken and dysfunctional system.

Second, we must create a culture of health that leads to responsible choices. We can do this by redesigning how public and private institutions influence individual behavior, and nowhere is this needed more than in public education. The CDC reports that nearly 80% of students—40 million of them—do not eat the recommended five servings of fruits and vegetables a day, and only one in three high school students participate in daily physical education. As a result, the number of obese children has tripled since 1980. We can correct this course with smart policies.


Students should be weighed and their body mass index calculated, with the results and relevant educational material sent home to parents. School lunches, breakfasts, and vending machines should promote healthy foods, so that unhealthy alternatives are penalized or prohibited.


Outside of public education, grocery stores in poor neighborhoods should receive tax incentives to provide a wide selection of fresh fruits and vegetables. The federal government should redesign the food stamp and WIC programs to incentivize the purchase of healthier foods. State and local governments should dramatically invest in bike paths, sidewalks, public parks, and active recreation programs to encourage physical activity.
Whatever you think of Mitt Romney, at least he doesn't walk around in denial (well, not in complete denial, anyway) of his previous agreements with today's Democratic agenda. Unlike Newt, who scrubbed the op-ed from his site. Of course the cached page remains, showing he was at one time proud enough of the piece to preserve it there.
 
1sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Sat, May 14, 2011, 12:03
Blatant hypocrisy and Newt. That surprises anyone.....why exactly?
 
2Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, May 14, 2011, 13:55
Nice catch, MITH.

Newt was only effective as a bombing throwing back bencher minority Congressman. He can only criticize, he's not made to lead, which is all fine and dandy because he will never be elected to a leadership position.
 
3Boldwin
      ID: 554221421
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 02:05
He makes the penultimate consigliere. Perhaps not much more given the republican base' social conservatism. But as long as we're considering throwing that out anyway in the form of Trump or Daniels or Romney I don't see how he'd be as bad as them.

His base would appreciate someone who at least respects social conservatives over the RINO's the MSM/PD's/Huffpo's of the world would have us believe belong at the top of the ticket.

Obviously his accomplishment of turning the republicans in the house from a bunch of 'no-balls, caddy-for-the-dems Bob Michels,' into something worthy of holding Reagan's torch is so very very much more than 'bomb-throwing back-bencher'. It's just silly to denigrate a man of such monumental acheivement that way. It shows profound lack of historical knowledge. You don't have to like the achievement to recognize it. There is no republican alive who did more to impliment the Reagan Revolution. After decades of the Bush dynasty tearing the Reagan Revolution apart I'd take more of Newt just fine please.
 
4Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 07:56
Falling for the global warming scam will not help his campaign. He should have run about 10 years ago.
 
5Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 10:36
a man of such monumental acheivement

Monumental, you say? Besides yelling the GOP into the majority, what other achievements should be on that monument?

Maybe his comparing the McCloskey 1984 election to the Holocaust?

Perhaps it was his lying about sleeping with his aide while pursuing Clinton for lying about his getting a bj?

[as a bonus, how about his ex-wife, in 1996, vowing to "bring him down" should he run for President?]

How about his famous quote: "If you're not in the Washington Post every day you might as well not exist."


More good ones to come.


[Awaits the "you're just jealous response" that is what the GOP argument devolves into anymore]
 
6Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 12:07
Sometimes I forget that Boldwin only measure of success is actually immeasurable: gravitas or some other silliness like bestowing "balls" on the previously ball-less or "torch carrying". How can you have a coherent conversation with someone whose world is completely in his head?

If I was a centrist, I could congratulate Newt for being the Speaker during America's finest economic hour in my lifetime, but I'm not and I'm convinced that America would have been better served with a liberal Speaker from 95-99, hell, who knows what kind of positive progress we could have made during those years. I give all the credit to Bill Clinton.
 
7Boldwin
      ID: 474281514
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 15:40
what other achievements should be on that monument? - PD

Considering how long it had been since Republicans had the majority in the House until Newt engineered one, he should have a Moses award for leading them out of the wilderness. Or would that be a Joshua award?

It was a huge deal to me. Ask Chris Matthews if it was significant.
 
8Boldwin
      ID: 474281514
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 15:48
And what does yelling have to do with it anyway? Did he raise his voice more than Boehner?

He was the #2 figure in the revolution that to this day makes it impossible for most democrats in most districts to even admit that they are liberal and still get elected.

Pretty damn significant.
 
9Boldwin
      ID: 474281514
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 16:24
Let's just flip this around and put this in a perspective you can get past your biases.

Imagine if Pelosi and Reid had been so successful and popular that twenty years later Republicans still needed to pretend to be Pelosi/Reid/Obama democrats to get elected...

...and I was like, 'Nancy? Pelosi? I don't remember any significant Nancy Pelosi, no...nope...wait, you mean that shrill backbencher way back when'?
 
10Boldwin
      ID: 474281514
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 16:25
Did he raise his voice more than Boehner?

Hell no.
 
11sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 16:32
enjoying yourself B?
 
12Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 16:36
Nancy Pelosi isn't running for President, and likely couldn't get elected to any position outside of San Francisco.

Similarly, Newt probably couldn't get elected to any post outside his Georgia district. Why anyone thinks he has a shot to jump from ex-Congressman for over a decade to President defies logic, as he'll soon discover trying to raise money for his campaign. Newt is no dummy, so he's probably positioning himself for a VP slot.
 
13DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 17:01
I'm pretty sure the fundamental (pun intended) difference is that, if things were turned around, most Democrats wouldn't be calling for Dennis Kucinich because, you know, Pelosi isn't liberal enough.
 
14Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, May 15, 2011, 19:39
Let's just flip this around ...

If you wanted to flip it around you'd be talking about Bill Clinton instead of Reid or Pelosi.
 
15Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Thu, May 19, 2011, 21:52
Newt 4/11/2011 as quoted in an interview with the NY Times on Paul Ryan's Medicare proposal:
“I think it is a dangerous political exercise... This is not something that Republicans can afford to handle lightly.”
Newt 5/15/2011 on Meet The Press:
MR. GREGORY:
What about entitlements? The Medicare trust fund, in stories that have come out over the weekend, is now going to be depleted by 2024 , five years earlier than predicted. Do you think that Republicans ought to buck the public opposition and really move forward to completely change Medicare , turn it into a voucher program where you give seniors...

REP. GINGRICH:
Right.

MR. GREGORY:
...some premium support and -- so that they can go out and buy private insurance ?

REP. GINGRICH:
I don't think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable than left- wing social engineering. I don't think imposing radical change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors. But there are specific things you can do. At the Center for Health Transformation , which I helped found, we published a book called " Stop Paying the Crooks." We thought that was a clear enough, simple enough idea, even for Washington . We -- between Medicare and Medicaid , we pay between $70 billion and $120 billion a year to crooks. And IBM has agreed to help solve it, American Express has agreed to help solve it, Visa 's agreed to help solve it. You can't get anybody in this town to look at it. That's, that's almost $1 trillion over a decade. So there are things you can do to improve Medicare.

MR. GREGORY:
But not what Paul Ryan is suggesting, which is completely changing Medicare .

REP. GINGRICH:
I, I think that, I think, I think that that is too big a jump. I think what you want to have is a system where people voluntarily migrate to better outcomes, better solutions, better options, not one where you suddenly impose upon the -- I don't want to -- I'm against Obamacare , which is imposing radical change , and I would be against a conservative imposing radical change.
Newt 5/16/2011 as quoted in an interview with the Wall STreet Journal:
In an interview with us yesterday, Mr. Gingrich conceded that he "probably used too strong language" on TV but that "I have thought about this for a long time and I am very, very worried." He explained that he was trying to articulate "a political strategy for long-term, sustainable change" and that Mr. Ryan ought to have focused on "incentives rather than punishments" and "the right to choose versus being forced to choose." He added that "I think it would be politically catastrophic to pass the bill in its current form" at a moment when conservatives have an opportunity "to break the left for the first time since 1932."
Newt 5/16/2011 in Iowa:



Newt 5/18/2011 on The Rush Limbaugh Show:
RUSH: Okay, now, I need to ask you because this is something you said on Sunday with Gregory that you didn't believe in "left wing or right-wing social engineering." What is that? Define social engineering for me.

GINGRICH: It's very straightforward. It's when the government comes in and tells you how to live your life and what you're gonna do, whether the values that lead it to do that are left-wing values or the values that lead it to do that are right-wing values. I believe in personal freedom. I believe in your right to lead your life. I believe that we are endowed by the Declaration of Independence, by Our Creator with the right to pursue happiness --and I want a government that is much more humble about its ability to tell you what to do, whether it's people on either side of the ideological spectrum. By the way, it was not a reference to Paul Ryan. There was no reference to Paul Ryan in that answer.

RUSH: Well, then what did you apologize to him about?

GINGRICH: Because it was interpreted in a way which was causing trouble, which he doesn't need or deserve, and was causing the House Republicans trouble. One of my closest friends -- somebody I truly, deeply respect -- e-mailed me and said, "You know, your answer hits every Republican who voted for the budget." Well, my answer wasn't about the budget. I promptly went back and said publicly, and continue to say: "I would have voted for the Ryan budget. I think it's a very important first step in the right direction," and I have consistently said that from the time that Paul first briefed me on it weeks before he introduced it -- and I've been talking with Paul Ryan about budget matters for the last four years.


On which side of his finger will he feel the breeze next week?
 
16Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Thu, May 19, 2011, 22:33
Newt hinting he is open to amnesty for undocumented immigrants? From Iowa Radio on 5/16/2011 (for obvious reasons, it's important to date this stuff):
“This is, at the risk of — as I do on occasion — of getting into trouble with the news media,” Gingrich said, in answering the question, and a few people in the audience chuckled. “…I’m looking seriously at the way the Selective Service Act used to work in the 1940s and World War II where a local Selective Service board who knew the local people made the decisions…because I think we are going to want to find some way to deal with the people who are here to distinguish between those who have no ties to the United States and therefore you can deport them at minimum human cost, and those who, in fact, may have earned the right to become legal, but not citizens.”
What metamorphosis will the bitter wind on his moistened digit bring to that one?
 
17Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Fri, May 20, 2011, 14:35
I'm a little surprised, MITH, that you are deriding Newt for these two positions. Yes, it may be that he has reconsidered his positions and this reconsideration could be construed as a weakness, but I think it is commendable that he has decided to change his position from a poor choice to a wise one even knowing his new opinion will be unpopular with the primary voters. I would have thought that you would agree with me. Furthermore, I didn't think you believed that changing your opinion on important matters was a weakness.

I don't think he is sticking his finger up to gauge the political wind, I think he is making two unpopular but principled stands. Good for him.
 
18Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 20, 2011, 14:44
I think MITH is not taking him to task for those positions, but taking him to task for backtracking, quickly and awkwardly, from those positions when he faces the blowback.

Newt can only stand criticism from the Left. Anything on his side is buffeting.
 
19Boldwin
      ID: 64132020
      Fri, May 20, 2011, 21:20
This is not finger in the wind; this is having a nose for the campaign funding.

The Tea Party's enemies are just brimming with loose cash.
 
21Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, May 21, 2011, 09:31
Boldy
This is not finger in the wind; this is having a nose for the campaign funding.

six/half-dozen.

SZ
I didn't think you believed that changing your opinion on important matters was a weakness.

It depends on how and why the change occurs. It's understandable that a former house rep running for senate or former legislator running for executive would adapt to appeal to a broader constituancy. And I understand that it's politically easier to simply deny previous positions than to deal with questions about reliability that would come with explaining that you're trying to please a different group of people now.

But this can be more artfully done than a complete 180 on the issues. For example, as a house rep in a conservative Upstate NY district, Kirsten Gillibrand was known as a strong gun rights advocate. She was often critical of the former assault weapons ban, advocated hunters' rights and played up her NRA membership. Since being appointed to HRC's former senate seat, she has opposed the expansion of gun ownership rights in DC and has aligned with longtime NRA enemy Carolyn McCarthy on anti gun trafficking efforts. So she managed to move from a being known as a gun rights advocate to being known as a gun control advocate without directly contradicting any specific positions.

Of course it's also reasonable to rethink a previously held position and perhaps that fairly explains Newt's flip-floppery on climate change and healthcare mandates.

But he specifically dismissing Ryan's medicare proposal as "right-wing social engineering" and "too big a jump" on 5/15 and then expanded on those very comments on 5/16 by saying, "it would be politically catastrophic to pass the bill." And then he told Newt on 5/18, after two days of attacks from the right, that he's consistantly backed Ryan's budget plan all along, and that all that stuff he very explicitly said (and then explicitly reiterated) was just a misunderstanding now being exploited by the left. That my friend is the epitome of shameless finger-in-the-wind politics.

I agree his apparent amnesty suggestion is an unpopular (in his political circle) but principled stand. On that, my criticism is presumptive. I fully expect him to walk that one back the same way, if he hasn't already.
 
22Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, May 21, 2011, 11:21
More...

In a prepared speach at the Georgia state GOP convention on Friday, 5/13/2011, Newt floated this terrific little gem:
“You know, folks often talk about immigration. I always say that to become an American citizen, immigrants ought to have to learn American history. [applause] But maybe we should also have a voting standard that says to vote, as a native born American, you should have to learn American history. [applause] You realize how many of our high school graduates because of the decay of the educational system, couldn’t pass a citizenship test.”
He then apparently reiterated the idea at a speaking engagement in Iowa on Thursday, 5/19/2011:

[Immigrants] need to pass a test of American history. And candidly, it wouldn’t be bad to have a test like that for young Americans before they start voting.
No word on whether the test would include any questions about the 1965 Voting Rights Act, which prohibits any "voting qualification or prerequisite to voting, or standard, practice, or procedure ... to deny or abridge the right of any citizen of the United States to vote on account of race or color."

And then on Friday, 5/20/2011 [drumroll...]:

You do have a test now for new citizens. I’m just making the point, not that we ought to create a test for young people, but that every young person who graduates from school ought to know American history, and all too often now adays the schools don’t teach you anymore.
 
23Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, May 21, 2011, 11:39
And then there was that thing where old Newt was for the Libyan no-fly zone before he was against it.

Newt on Greta Van Susteren 3/7/2011:

VAN SUSTEREN: Which is not insignificant, and I'll get to that in a moment. But first let me ask you about Libya. It's in the news. The president has said that military options with NATO are not off the table. What would you do about Libya?

GINGRICH: Exercise a no-fly zone this evening, communicate to the Libyan military that Qaddafi was gone and that the sooner they switch sides, the more like they were to survive, provided help to the rebels to replace him. I mean, the idea that we're confused about a man who has been an anti-American dictator since 1969 just tells you how inept this administration is. They were very quick to jump on Mubarak, who was their ally for 30 years, and they were confused about getting rid of Qaddafi. This is a moment to get rid of him. Do it. Get it over with.

VAN SUSTEREN: And why do you think -- you say you think it's ineptitude is why the pause or there's different political...

GINGRICH: Look...

VAN SUSTEREN: ... or different diplomacy?

GINGRICH: I think the most generous comment would be ineptitude. It's also an ideological problem. The United States doesn't need anybody's permission. We don't need to have NATO, who frankly, won't bring much to the fight. We don't need to have the United Nations. All we have to say is that we think that slaughtering your own citizens is unacceptable and that we're intervening. And we don't have to send troops. All we have to do is suppress his air force, which we could do in minutes. And then we have to say publicly that he is gone, that the military should switch sides now, and we should help the rebels. And if that means getting them weapons or whatever it means, the fact that there's no more Libyan air power and the fact that the United States has publicly come out for decisively replacing him, I suspect the military will dump him.
Newt on The Today Show 3/23/2011 (two days after President Obama imposed a no-fly zone over Libya):

LAUER: Do you think Moammar Qaddafi has to go as a result of this intervention?


GINGRICH: Let me draw the distinction. I would not have intervened. I think there were a lot of other ways to affect Qaddafi. I think there are a lot of other allies in the region we could have worked with. I would not have used American and European forces.
 
24Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, May 21, 2011, 11:41
 
25Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, May 21, 2011, 12:05
Newt on Greta Van Susteren 3/7/2011 (again):
All we have to say is that we think that slaughtering your own citizens is unacceptable and that we're intervening. And we don't have to send troops. All we have to do is suppress his air force, which we could do in minutes. And then we have to say publicly that he is gone, that the military should switch sides now, and we should help the rebels. And if that means getting them weapons or whatever it means, the fact that there's no more Libyan air power and the fact that the United States has publicly come out for decisively replacing him, I suspect the military will dump him.
Newt on Gret Van Susteren 3/24/2011:
If they’re serious about protecting civilians, you can’t do that from the air. Gadaffi is going to use light infantry, he’s going to use his secret police. He’s going to be in the cities, he’s going to be inside buildings. Your not going to be able to do that with air power. This is a fundamental mistake. And I think is a typical politician’s over-reliance on air power.
 
26Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, May 21, 2011, 12:32
Incidentially I don't think the Libya stuff is necessarily "finger in the wind" either. That's just plain base political obstructionism.
 
27weykool
      ID: 444231621
      Sat, May 21, 2011, 14:15
I agree his apparent amnesty suggestion is an unpopular (in his political circle) but principled stand.
I don't know that this is true.
I would have no problem with amnesty as long as it isn't the first step.
#1. Secure the borders.
#2. Implement a workable program that would allow workers to come here for short periods legally.
#3. Grant amnesty for those who have been here for some specified amount of time.
 
28Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sat, May 21, 2011, 14:22
I doubt you'll find many conservatives who agree.

I hear "secure the border" all the time but I don't think I've ever heard anyone explain exactly what they mean by that. What's your standard for a "secure" border?
 
29Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, May 21, 2011, 17:11
Actually, I think weykool's #2 is all you need to achieve #1. It's the only way.
 
30Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, May 21, 2011, 23:44
#2 was George Bush's immigration plan, in a nutshell.
 
31weykool
      ID: 53446220
      Sun, May 22, 2011, 01:47
I would bet a lot more conservatives would be on board if the discussion didn't start with amnesty and end with "you're racist".
Bush's plan did nothing to secure the borders and was basically a plan to rename illegal immigration a work program.
It is wishful thinking to suggest that a work program alone will secure the borders.
The only plan that would draw conservative support would be one where the US decides which jobs would qualify and who is allowed to work them.
And yes, "Secure the borders" is a relative term.
Every politician including Obama has it in their campaign speech but they all do nothing to improve the current situation.
 
32bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sun, May 22, 2011, 08:47
weykool, what would you do to secure the borders?
 
33Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, May 22, 2011, 09:31
Does anyone have a definition for that? Don't you have to define "secure" before you can decide whether it's been achieved?
 
34Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, May 22, 2011, 10:58
Bush believed that immigration policy and border security are two different issues. Dealing with immigration labor is a completely separate issue from dealing with criminals coming into our border.

I think a lot of "liberals" would be more on board with guest worker and other immigration ideas from the Right if the Right was able to deal with immigration employment without calling those people potential criminals at the same time.
 
35weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Mon, May 23, 2011, 12:56
I always thought the guest worker programs were ideas from the left which is why Bush's policy found little support from his base.
Guest workers without secure borders will never fly with conservatives.
It is the acknowlegement from the right that some of the jobs done by illegals are jobs that would be difficult to fill without them.
As for what steps need to be taken to secure the borders I would leave that up to the experts.
 
36Boldwin
      ID: 534432314
      Mon, May 23, 2011, 15:47
If only the government left it up to the experts.
 
37Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, May 23, 2011, 18:18
Still no one can tell me what a "secure" border is.
 
38Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, May 23, 2011, 19:25
Apparently the government isn't an expert at border security, so don't ask them.
 
39Boldwin
      ID: 534432314
      Mon, May 23, 2011, 20:43
MITH

When your jobs stop being taken by illegals and your tax bill for their social services stops growing exponentially.

As opposed to your definition, 'one got thru this year so why did we even try'?

Which reminds me of your take on ANWAR ten years ago, namely, 'Anything we discovered there wouldn't come online for ten years so why should we even bother'?

 
40Boldwin
      ID: 534432314
      Mon, May 23, 2011, 20:46
MITH

Or maybe your definition is, 'When the last citizen of Mexico turns out the light and crosses'.
 
41Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, May 23, 2011, 21:20
Yes, because "Mexicans" = "bad"
 
42Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 00:13
No feasible, much less sustainable amount of border security will put an end to undocumented immigrants getting work in this country. Your notion of border "security" is based on more than one fallacy.

Anyone else? Weykool? You keep using the term. Care to clue the rest of us in on what you mean by it?
 
43Tree
      ID: 320371412
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 01:28
Or maybe your definition is, 'When the last citizen of Mexico turns out the light and crosses'.

and now we get down to it. it's not illegal immigrants that concern you - it's Mexicans.
 
44DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 01:55
Give me an I!
 
45Boldwin
      ID: 534432314
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 12:46
We're a bankrupted country thanks to liberals.

We can't afford our own social services let alone paying for the social services of two large countries.
 
46weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 13:13
Anyone else? Weykool? You keep using the term. Care to clue the rest of us in on what you mean by it?
Do I care to get into a word parsing argument with you?
NO.
I think we all know what is meant by the term.

I would like to congratulate race baiters in 41,43, and 44 for waiting 3 whole days before playing the race card.....probably a Rotoguru record.
 
47Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 13:43
hahahaha. Yeah, responding to Baldwin's clear fear of Mexicans is "playing the race card."

I suspect you are just being overly sensitive, since no one said anything about race. But I guess just pointing that out makes me "playing the race card" again.
 
48DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 14:08
weykool, the funny thing is that when Boldwin says, and I quote, "Or maybe your definition is, 'When the last citizen of Mexico turns out the light and crosses'." ... that isn't playing the race card? But mentioning it is?

That's a completely absurd definition of "playing the race card" you have there.

Why not call out Boldwin? Oh, yeah, because you happen to agree with him on the issue, so he could shoot someone in the head that disagreed with him and you'd get angry about the liberals bringing gun control into it if they thought that was perhaps a bit uncouth. It's completely irrational, but also completely expected at this point.
 
49boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 14:36
I think a lot of "liberals" would be more on board with guest worker and other immigration ideas from the Right if the Right was able to deal with immigration employment without calling those people potential criminals at the same time.

I hope this is not true, Seems kind of childish if both sides can actually agree on something but choose not too. Who am I kidding of course this is the way it is.
 
50Boldwin
      ID: 514402413
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 14:45
The funny thing is my college room-mate was a Puerto Rican and later my best friend for a ten year period was a different Puerto Rican. But of course 'that's what all racists say'.

So obviously I have a deep seated antipathy towards latinos.

Not.

What I have a deep seated antipathy towards is blindingly stupid things like liberalism in general or in just about every particular. Granted importing an entire country hoping they'll all accept your unearned gifts and vote for your party has a twisted evil genius to it assuming you don't mind destroying america in the process.
 
51Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 15:26
I'm sure Native Americans felt the same way.
 
52sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 15:40
What I have a deep seated antipathy towards is blindingly stupid things like liberalism in general or in just about every particular. Granted importing an entire country hoping they'll all accept your unearned gifts and vote for your party has a twisted evil genius to it assuming you don't mind destroying america in the process.

Except that as has become the norm B, yo9u;re dead wrong here. According to this 2005 Businessweek article, illegal immigrants are contributing soundly, solidly and in HUGE part; to our national GDP:

link

You know those capitalists you are so in favor of? Well, by and large, they LOVE the illegals:

Growth engine
For more than two decades, America's illegal aliens have been the target of national attention -- largely for negative reasons. Their growing numbers put downward pressure on U.S. wages and new demands on schools, hospitals, and other public services. Fears of heavier social burdens and higher tax bills have led citizens and local officials to object with renewed vigor to what many perceive as an unwanted invasion from Mexico and other countries, especially to newer destination states such as Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, and Tennessee (BW, July 4, 2005). Yet all the while, farms, hotels, restaurants, small manufacturers, and other employers have continued to hire the undocumented with little regard to the federal laws intended to stop them.

At the same time, though, the fast-growing undocumented population is coming to be seen as an untapped engine of growth. In the past several years, big U.S. consumer companies -- banks, insurers, mortgage lenders, credit-card outfits, phone carriers, and others -- have decided that a market of 11 million or so potential customers is simply too big to ignore. It may be against the law for the Valenzuelas to be in the U.S. or for an employer to hire them, but there's nothing illegal about selling to them.
 
53Boldwin
      ID: 514402413
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 15:47
illegal immigrants are contributing soundly, solidly and in HUGE part; to our national GDP: - Sarge

Tell it to an unemployed american.
 
54Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 16:02
Heh. Trotting out the "Illegals take jobs from Americans!" meme again? Try telling it to an American who lost an actual job to an actual illegal immigrant.

Good luck finding one.
 
55sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 16:15
How noble of you B, to take part of the quote, out of context; and attribute it to me; when I clearly stated "according to Business Week..."

is this show far you have fallen in your desperate attempt to be relevant?
 
56Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 16:35
I think we all know what is meant by the term.

I don't. I've heard it said by some on this board that Security on the level of the borders between Isreal and the Palestinian territories is a good standard. Of course on a border the size of ours with Mexico, this would also be unfeasible. It's not a hard question. But since you refuse to explain yourself, I have no choice but to assume you don't know what you're talking about and don't care to have that further exposed.
 
57Boldwin
      ID: 514402413
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 21:37
Good luck finding one

Every black, white or latino legal resident who is on the liberal plantation getting government checks instead of paychecks. If the jobs are there the american poor should be doing them instead of sitting on their butts in nice section 8's watching tube all day.
 
58sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Tue, May 24, 2011, 21:55
How about we pay Americans enough that by going to work, there ARE no American poor?
 
59Mith
      ID: 46121210
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 12:57
0 Subject: The Real Newt Gingerich

Posted by: Boldwin - [35615181] Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 11:44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newt schools the pompous Piers Morgan.

Now there is a man who can think on his feet with the TV lights and the red dot on. Newt, not Piers.

1 Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 11:55 He's so real he's changed the spelling of his name.

Sigh... waste of a thread (huge shock considering).

2 DWetzel
ID: 53326279
Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 12:16 As long as we're on "The Real Newt", this seems eminently on topic:

link

3 DWetzel
ID: 53326279
Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 12:17 From that link:

Newt when asked how he could be unfaithful and give a speech on family values: "It doesn't matter what I do," he answered. "People need to hear what I have to say. There's no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn't matter what I live."
Source: John H. Richardson. "Newt Gingrich: The Indispensable Republican."

4 DWetzel
ID: 53326279
Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 12:17 Based on that quote, I can see why Boldwin likes him so much.

5 Perm Dude
ID: 39961218
Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 12:23 He's a pompous windbag, who is an expert on being an expert, has extremely high unfavorables (no surprise--he's a bit of a dick), and would be a gift to Obama should the GOP be so close-minded as to choose him as their nominee. The less said, the better.

6 DWetzel
ID: 53326279
Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 12:30 Sure.

That said, he IS a pretty smart dude. I will give him that.
 
60Boldwin
      ID: 261053148
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 09:53
Newt schools pompous moderator:

 
61Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 11:01
What a surprise. A dick's gotta be a dick.
 
62Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 11:43
here comes Baldwin!

 
63DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 12:11
Gingrich was always his favorite, at least this week.
 
64Boldwin
      ID: 1510511410
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 12:31
I still like em in the order, West/Bachman/Cain/Newt...and no one else that I can remember even got a maybe from me.

The problem with Newt is that he is a politician which is also the strength of Newt.

If he directs his considerable institutional skills in the right direction he can do more good than any other announced candidate.

I have to believe his posing with Al Sharpton wrt some bs housing scheme I think it was, and his posing with Pelosi backing her BS global warming scheme, and his backing Kerry for whatever it was, and his ode to Roosevelt...

...was just posing for the media. [no Newt, the MSM will never like you, not even a little bit]

And similarly I have to hope his new found distaste for Agenda 21 isn't entirely a pose for the Tea Party.

[which it certainly is wonderful at - all his posing for the media previously makes it harder to dismiss him than Bachmann when they decry Agenda 21].

I also have to hope when he used to believe you could have a non-socialist, private enterprise centered constitutional insurance mandate before he didn't believe it would be constitutional...

...that he actually has a non-socialist non-massachusetts/non-Obama-style plan...and that he isn't quite as unalterably opposed to the Ryan plan as he made it sound.
-------------
So let's add up the pluses and minuses

Pluses

1) Brilliant, can think on his feet, has never had a deer caught in the headlights look in his life.

2) Pragmatic institutional expert. Can get stuff passed by congress if anyone can. A big big plus these days.

3) Unlikely that Soros throws too much money towards anyone spotlighting Agenda 21.

Minuses

1) Not a good campaigner. Mistakes airtight long logical arguments [and being right] for rhetorical campaign speech that works, soundbites that impact the public. He is getting better at it. A quick study.

2) A paper trail.

Obama hardly had a voting record to attack and what damaging info that was out there [his entire life was a disqualifier had it been explained by the media], the media wouldn't report.

Newt has a media that hates him as much as it hates Reagan [the white hot heat of a thousand suns] but Newt isn't made of charismatic teflon like Reagan was. The MSM have years and years of tried and true tactics that they have built up against him.

2) No Charisma whatsoever discernable to anyone who isn't a wonk, a history buff, or extra intelligent.

3) Too smart. If you are this smart and you want to be in politics, you might want to cultivate some 'aw shucks' and pull out/show off just enuff intelligence to get the job done and keep the rest under the surface.
 
65Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 12:43
Newt's entire history on Agenda 21 consists of 2 sentences.

Paraphrasing from the video I found(not linked to by Baldwin):

"I didn't know much about Agenda 21

I will defund it elected President."

Granted, it may not be Newt's entire history of comments on Agenda 21, but they were only a few weeks old. However, nowhere that I found did he go into hysterics ala Baldwin as to "spotlight Agenda 21."


If it exists, please link.
 
66Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 14:19
1) Brilliant, can think on his feet, has never had a deer caught in the headlights look in his life.

If the deer in the headlights look is bad, why have you been such a serial apologist for Bachman and Cain? I thought the blank look was one of authenticity--a sign of their connection with those not in the know.
 
67Boldwin
      ID: 1510511410
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 15:57
PV

Newt has stated he didn't even know about agenda 21 until he was repeatedly quizzed on this at campaign stops and debates. [in the last month]

He looked into it and what a president could do to stop it.
 
68Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 11:24
Boldwin

you might want to cultivate some 'aw shucks' and pull out/show off just enuff intelligence to get the job done and keep the rest under the surface.

After years of dismissing leftist charges of anti-intellectualism on the right, this was surprising coming from you. I think it's a big part of the points ive recently discussed on image. Much moreso on the right than on the left, coming off as too smart seems to somehow be a political detriment. You seem to have no problem acknowledging that the practical usefulness of a pol's charisma doesn't seem to match the political importance of getting him/her elected. And now you apparently concede that displays of high intelligence or ease with discussing the issues in considerable depth can hinder a candidate.

Would you call this a flaw among the electorate on the right?

Democrats, possibly to their political detriment once the general election comes, don't seem to have a problem nominating the nerdiest guy in the room. On the right, you wer probably injured in military service or ran the CIA if you come off that way and still command support.
 
69Boldwin
      ID: 2510471511
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 13:29
Aw shucks. It's not that complicated. People do not like being talked down to.

Except Democrats.
 
70walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 08:40
NYT, Egan, Bam!

The correct take on this...
 
71Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 10:48
BTW MITH, did you think Bill Buckley wasn't smart or did you think he wasn't popular on the right?
 
72Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 10:52
Buckley's popularity with the Right peaked 35 years ago. He was respected by the "elites" for years and years afterwards. And, yes, he was quite smart.
 
74Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 11:34
Yeah, he kinda died for me the issue he introduced neocons and Leo Strauss in his magazine, but I'm in awe of that wit and erudition. That never leaves me.

My personal theory is the S&B pulled out their blackmail material on him and forced him to do that [and he did retire and pull away from the magazine right around that time] but perhaps I am being too kind out of respect.
 
75Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 11:56
Buckley? Read #68 again. The question was about the conservative electorate and how they view politicians. After two days that was the best you could come up with?

And sure, if you go back a few decades I imagine you'll find that a display of high intelligence was not an obstacle to getting elected for conservative candidates. But #68 wasn't a reference to politics in 1975, either.

And you've already answered the question, anyway. High intelligence gets dismissed as condescension on the political right. I relayed the above exchange between you and I to a very smart conservative friend of mine from Missouri. He said the last thing the conservative movement needs is stupid conservatives who impose their insecure fear of intelligence on the rest of them.
 
76Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 13:29
I think the truth is expressed best at Proverbs, a smart guy we respect...

In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression, but the one keeping his lips in check is acting discreetly.

Also we're mindful that pride comes before a fall so...

When we hear you building an elaborate house of cards and you are puffing yourself up larger and larger we have our hands over our mouth going 'wait for it...wait for it'.

So if you come into the house of common sense a bit too verbose you better be hitting them out of the park with every sentence and our gut better be screaming 'this person is more sure-footed than a mountain goat'.

An intellectual can think of more ways to go wrong and fool himself than anyone else, and someone with common sense is harder to BS than you give them credit for.

[anecdote: The Book of Job is more than half composed of the words of the best friends of the greatest man on the planet [so you know they must have been considered wise as well], and Job being raked over the coals by his best friends.

They built chapters and chapters of a completely erroneous house of cards.]
 
77Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 14:33
Huh? The Bible says people who speak in ambiguously broad platitudes are more trustworthy than those who display a deep understanding of the issues?
 
78Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 14:36
Newt should dumb it down and throw in a few "aw shucks" to appear more Christian?

Does anyone know wtf he is asking about?
 
79Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 14:59
I said nothing about appearing christian, or being ambiguous.

Avoid building elaborate houses of cards built upon excessive dubious premises that don't square with common sense.

For example 'We should tear down all the structurally sound hydroelectric plants and dams at a cost of a hundred million a dam to save local subspecies because they might contain the gene to cure aids or that's preserving the entire foodchain.'

Riiiiiight.
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 111025184
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 09:10
How dangerous is Newt Gingerich? Ask Dan rather.
 
81Mith
      ID: 46121210
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 12:39
You're right. 78 is pretty lame.

But be honest. We're not talking about pols who use verbose language. We're talking about pols, Newt Gingrich, specifically, who are capable of displaying a command of the finer points of the issues.

You listed "Too Smart" in your 'minuses' column for Newt Gingrich, suggesting he only pull out/show off just enuff intelligence to get the job done and keep the rest under the surface.

Are you saying now that putting his full genius on open display would actually be just fine as long as he isn't too wordy about it? Personally I think Gingrich is concise enough. In fact I think he speaks in as controled and easy diction as you could ask.

An intellectual can think of more ways to go wrong and fool himself than anyone else, and someone with common sense is harder to BS than you give them credit for.

For the life of me I don't understand why you or anyone thinks those things are mutually exclusive. Why should Newt Gingrich have to hide his intellectualism to beef up his common sense cred?

And yes, we're talking about ambigousness and the broad generalities presented by the anti-intellectual heros on the political right in lieu of displayed command of the issues. Particularly when reliance on that common sense leads tthe candidate on the politically wrong side of an issue that he doesn't understand, for example: deciding on the fly that the Palestinian right of return is an issue best left settled by the Palestinians.
 
82Boldwin
      ID: 510171818
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 20:42
There is a time and a place for everything. I just adore a big vocabulary and I'm obsessed with finding just the precise word, and I love showing off that precise word somewhere it will be appreciated.

By the same token the smartest person I have personally ever met had the gift of making the most complicated issue so simple, clear and irrefutible that you thot she was talking at a childlike level. Other people just took it stride without realizing the genius of it but my jaw was on the floor.

Jesus got the most important issues in the human condition down to simple stories.

On the whole, leave the polysyllables in the cabinet room, and address the people with clarity and simplicity, cutting thru the crap government throws at us.
 
83Boldwin
      ID: 510171818
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 20:57
Reagan was the gold standard of political speech. I don't think too many from either party would deny that. Are you suggesting any successful politician flashed Bill Buckley level vocabulary all the time and that worked for him on the stump?

No one comes to my mind.
 
84sarge33rd
      ID: 2310401816
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 21:04
as much as you hate him, Clinton was every bit the orator Reagan was. AND FTR, Clinton was far more conservative than the Pres who followed him.
 
85Boldwin
      ID: 510171818
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 21:08
Anecdote. Funny moment, I was doing some public speaking and actually came across a situation in which a word I had just learned from Buckley, it was really obscure, was the perfect word for what I was talking about.

But this was just not the crowd who would be expecting it. In fact it would look like showing off to use it. So I paused for what seemed like five seconds trying to think of any word which exresssed the thot and I could not come up with one, so I finally spit the word out and rushed right past it hoping it hardly registered. So they must have thot it took me five seconds to come up with that word...when it was really the opposite. I find it funny.
 
86Boldwin
      ID: 510171818
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 21:11
I'm sure Clinton was consciously trying to learn from Reagan, but his gift was really seduction and lying, not so much oration.
 
87Boldwin
      ID: 510171818
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 21:24
Every column Bill Buckley ever wrote, available online. 8,605 pieces...

Give me a year to come up with that word again.
 
88sarge33rd
      ID: 2310401816
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 21:42
just wrecks your whole day, to even begin to give credit to a Dem when its due. You are B, a truly sad example of humanity.
 
89Boldwin
      ID: 910491911
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 13:44
Hard to see it as great oratory when it was all lies all the time.
 
90sarge33rd
      ID: 910201912
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 14:12
Hard to take you seriously, when you consistently generalize into a series of falsehoods. Nobody, not even GWB, told ALL lies, ALL the time.
 
91Boldwin
      ID: 2110311914
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:36
It was like crack to him. A real narcisist reveling in his ability to tell a lie and then make like Houdini. I think he'd rather kiss a spider than tell the boring truth.
 
92sarge33rd
      ID: 910201912
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:42
(A) You are of course wrong, (B) you'll never admit it, (c) you REALLY do need to start your own blog,m where like minded (that is to say closed minded) can revel in your saying what they already think anyway.
 
93Boldwin
      ID: 2110311914
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:59
But then who would call Hack?
 
94sarge33rd
      ID: 910201912
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 17:04
as if either the question, or the answer, mattered.
 
95Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 18:00
It was like crack to him. A real narcisist reveling in his ability to tell a lie and then make like Houdini. I think he'd rather kiss a spider than tell the boring truth.

A better description of Newt would be hard to find. This is dead on.
 
96Boldwin
      ID: 2310542014
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 19:32
There is a difference between Newt's flip-flopping every decade on a few issues and Clinton's pathological lying every second of the day just for the thrill of it, even when the truth would help him.
 
97Boldwin
      ID: 2310542014
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 19:35
Exactly what I said.
If look at history from the mid-1960s, we’ve gone from a request for toleration to an imposition of intolerance. We’ve gone from a request to understand others to a determination to close down those who hold traditional values.

I think that we need to be very aggressive and very direct. The degree to which the left is prepared to impose intolerance and to drive out of existence traditional religion is a mortal threat to our civilization and deserves to be taken head on and described as what it is which the use of government to repress the American people against their own values. - Newt quoted in TPM
 
98sarge33rd
      ID: 201042113
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 19:38
I want irrefutabvloe proof, that there was any day at all, even one, where former Pres Clinton engaged in "pathological lying every second of the day just for the thrill of it".

60 seconds x 60 minutes in an hour x 24 hours in a day = 86,400 seconds or according to your allegation, lies.

So,. I want proof of ANY day in which he told 86,400 lies AND, you must proof he told those lies simply "for the thrill of it".
 
99Boldwin
      ID: 2310542014
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 19:42
I followed him like Derrelle Revis, his whole scandal soaked career as president. I know. They know. They had me audited.
 
100Boldwin
      ID: 2310542014
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 19:50
In fact he has his very own presidential style. It's called the 'He wakes up every day and asks himself how he can fool america today' mode.

You can google the phrase for yourself.
 
101Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 19:51
They had me audited.

Seek therapy.
 
102Boldwin
      ID: 1010252119
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 20:27
He had every critic in the country audited. Ask any of them.

During this time I was hectoring them on one of their favorite sites, Salon. And I was just about the only conservative there.
And under Mr. Clinton, the IRS has audited a mathematically improbable series of the president's critics. - AC
I have never been audited before or since, and they paid me money. It wasn't like I had significant red flags other than being self-employed.

Don't tell me to seek therapy. Tell it to Ms 'Vast Right Wing Conspiracy'.
 
103sarge33rd
      ID: 201042113
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 21:01
Pres Clinton, ordered YOU audited? ROFLMFAO Boy, you dont hold TOO high an opinion of yourself, do you?
 
104Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 21:01
Newt's flip-flopping every decade on a few issues

This isn't about Clinton. Or the 90's.

Newt's flipping on the issues. The Libya one is particularly funny, since the happened within a few weeks of each other.

The fact that you believe the Left wants to drive out of existence traditional religion is all we need to know about your ability to think critically on the issue of Newt Gingrich.
 
105Boldwin
      ID: 1010252119
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 22:04
Sarge

No, he's that petty and vindictive. And he hires people like 'Sid Vicious' Blumenthal who invented the term 'Vast Right Wing Conspiracy'. And they really really concern themselves with 'The Communication Stream of Conspiracy Commerce'.

They wrote up a great big book collecting evidence for it.

They had a a great big room in the WH with a great big computer database of their enemies.

Trust me, they singled me out and had me audited. Put it on the board.
 
106sarge33rd
      ID: 201042113
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 22:12
I dont see B, a sitting President, getting concerned over some nobody in the middle of nowhere, talking to nobody who will listen to him, saying nothing of any substantive truth.

Nope, I dont see it. More likely? You got audited, for the same reason I did in the 80s....self-employed, office on the home.
 
107Razor
      ID: 09441723
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 22:55
This is the best bit of self-delusion this board has ever seen.
 
108Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 23:24
I followed him like Derrelle Revis, his whole scandal soaked career as president. I know. They know. They had me audited.

LOL and that was a legit, spitting Ben & Jerry's Peanut Brittle ice cream across the room LOL.

I have never been audited before or since, and they paid me money. It wasn't like I had significant red flags other than being self-employed.

yea, me too. i was audited. i was making 17K a year at Barnes & Noble when i first got to NYC. i must have been critical of Clinton and not realized it.

i also wear a tin hat. i'm also bat$hit crazy.

lol. wow. wow.

 
109sarge33rd
      ID: 201042113
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 23:49
Gen W Clark on the GOP field

Clark's jabs, however, weren't reserved for Romney. He called Newt Gingrich's idea of covert action in Iran "cute."

"Some candidates seem to be rattling the sabres for war with Iran," Clark said. "One candidate was placing heavy emphasis on covert action as though he had just invented the idea and nothing is happening now, which is a little bit cute since the definition of covert action is that it cannot be acknowledged."


Way to take that blow hard to school Gen.
 
110Boldwin
      ID: 1010252119
      Tue, Nov 22, 2011, 00:45
I was the revenge of Jon Parnell Walker. I really let those two bastards know the whole world was watching.

You are not forgotten, Jon.
 
111sarge33rd
      ID: 201042113
      Tue, Nov 22, 2011, 01:00
Self aggrandizing nonsense, which has little if anything to do with the thread topic.
 
113Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Nov 22, 2011, 11:27
I just read that, back in the day, Gingrich proposed mandatory death penalty for those bringing more than 2 ounces of pot into the country.

My, how times have changed. For some.
 
114biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Nov 22, 2011, 19:00
Newt Gingrich: a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like.

Too perfect.

I'll leave up to the reader to track down who said it.
 
115sarge33rd
      ID: 610332217
      Tue, Nov 22, 2011, 19:16
why did 114 put this goofy sh*t eating grin on my face? :)
 
116Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 23:19
After reading this, I am now convinced that Newt is the most nanny-state social engineering candidate in the field by FAR!

Newt Gingrich Says Drug Use Is "Antithetical to Being an American," Wants to Escalate Drug War by Impoverishing More Users
 
117Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 23:45
Places like Singapore have been the most successful at doing that. They've been very draconian. And they have communicated with great intention that they intend to stop drugs from coming into their country.

Yeah, Newt, all those places like Singapore, about half the size of Rhode Island. Wonder how draconian Singapore is on prescription drug abuse, ala Rush Oxybaugh.

 
118Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 23:55
I'm guessing this classic newspaper front page will get some play if Newt looks likely to grab the nomination:


 
119Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 00:28
Time to take a closer look at why both sides of the aisle largely wrote Gingrich off as a viable presidntial candidate much earlier this year.

Wiki:
During the crisis, Gingrich's public image suffered from the perception that the Republicans' hardline budget stance owed partly to a snub by Clinton during the flight to and from Yitzhak Rabin's funeral in Israel.[61] That perception developed after the trip when Gingrich told reporters he was dissatisfied that Clinton had not invited him to discuss the budget during the flight. He complained of being instructed to use the plane's rear exit to deplane, saying the snub was "part of why you ended up with us sending down a tougher continuing resolution".[62]

Gingrich was lampooned for implying that the government shutdown was a result of his personal grievances, including a widely-shared editorial cartoon depicting him as having thrown a temper tantrum.[63] Democratic leaders, including Chuck Schumer, took the opportunity to attack Gingrich's motives for the budget standoff.[64][65] Gingrich later realized his comments were his "single most avoidable mistake" as Speaker.[66]


Eighty-four ethics charges were filed against Speaker Gingrich during his term (for context, that's 71 more than were filed against Charlie Rangel) including claiming tax-exempt status for a college course run for political purposes.


On January 21, 1997, the House of Representatives voted to discipline him for ethical wrongdoing. He was accused of using tax-deductible charitable donations to fund a non-charitable college course that he taught, and of giving false information about this to the House Ethics Committee. In a 395-28 vote, the House ordered Gingrich to pay an unprecedented $300,000 penalty as part of a settlement to avoid a full hearing.[5]


Gingrich acknowledged in January 1997 that "In my name and over my signature, inaccurate, incomplete and unreliable statements were given to the committee". [70] The House Ethics Committee concluded that inaccurate information supplied to investigators represented "intentional or ... reckless" disregard of House rules.[71] Special Counsel James M. Cole concluded that Gingrich violated federal tax law and had lied to the ethics panel in an effort to force the committee to dismiss the complaint against him.


Republicans lost five seats in the House in the 1998 elections—the worst midterm performance in 64 years for a party that didn't hold the presidency. Polls showed that Gingrich and the Republican Party's attempt to remove President Clinton from office was deeply unpopular among voters.[78] Gingrich suffered much of the blame for the election loss. Facing a rebellion in the Republican caucus, he announced on November 5, 1998 that he would not only stand down as Speaker, but would leave the House as well. Gingrich made this announcement only a day after being elected to an 11th term from his district. Commenting on his departure, Gingrich said, "I'm willing to lead but I'm not willing to preside over people who are cannibals. My only fear would be that if I tried to stay, it would just overshadow whoever my successor is."[79]


Gingrich has been married three times. In 1962, he married Jackie Battley, his former high school geometry teacher, when he was 19 years old and she was 26.


In the spring of 1980, Gingrich left Battley after having an affair with Marianne Ginther.


Six months after the divorce from Battley was final, Gingrich wed Marianne Ginther in 1981.[141][142][143][144] In the mid-1990s, Gingrich began an affair with House of Representatives staffer Callista Bisek, who is 23 years his junior. They continued their affair during the Lewinsky scandal, when Gingrich became a leader of the investigation of President Clinton for perjury and obstruction of justice in connection with his alleged affairs.[145] In 2000, Gingrich married Bisek shortly after his divorce from second wife Ginther. He and Callista currently live in McLean, Virginia.[146] In a 2011 interview with David Brody of the Christian Broadcasting Network Gingrich addressed his past infidelities by saying, "There's no question at times in my life, partially driven by how passionately I felt about this country, that I worked too hard and things happened in my life that were not appropriate."
 
120Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 01:33
If you aren't the locus of democratic dirty tricks against conservatives, you aren't trying hard enuff. Thank you for a reminder why I love Newt so much.

Loved his government shut-down.

Loved his impeachment of Clinton.

Loved how much the MSM and Clinton hated him.

He and Palin were unfairly hounded by corrupt politicians and in the same way. A blizzard of unfounded charges and unprecedented ethical accusations, unprecedented due to their creativity in coloring innocent activities and accepted practice that had never been interpreted that way, as wanton lack of ethics.

My question to other republicans is why don't democrats and corrupt combine RINO's hate you that much, because you obviously weren't doing right by your base if they weren't.
 
121sarge33rd
      ID: 510433010
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 01:36
sooooooooooooooo to boil down, the more illegal things Newt does, the more you like him?
 
122Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 01:42
He didn't do anything illegal.
 
123Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 01:44
And neither did Sarah. Republicans had better get smarter and more united when their own most effective spear tip is getting the tsunami of slime treatment.
 
124sarge33rd
      ID: 510433010
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 01:52
"Gingrich acknowledged in January 1997 that "In my name and over my signature, inaccurate, incomplete and unreliable statements were given to the committee"."

Perjury. The same "crime" Clinton committed.

"Special Counsel James M. Cole concluded that Gingrich violated federal tax law and had lied to the ethics panel in an effort to force the committee to dismiss the complaint against him."


Tax fraud AND perjury.


No, he didnt do anything illegal.
 
125Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 02:19
Oh, give me a break. He settled. If his own side had backed him up instead of eyeing his gavel...
 
126sarge33rd
      ID: 510433010
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 02:31
IIIIIIII see, the most powerful Rep in Washington DC, was the victim NOT of his own lies and actions, but of a vast conspiracy amongst HIS OWN PARTY, even as he worked diligently to unseat the President who was from the opposition party.


Do I have that right?
 
127Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 02:36
You never have it right.

If ten percent of republicans had backed Newt against frivilous and false charges, as well as 99% of democrats backed Clinton against obviously serious and true charges, republicans wouldn't have lost the most effective republican speaker of the house ever.
 
128Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 03:19
That wouldn't be dispositive – except for the fact that their only evidence is their word.

But this is how liberals dirty you up when they've got nothing: They launch a series of false accusations, knowing that Americans with busy lives won't follow each story to the end and notice that they were all blind alleys.

The liberal media is an old story, but it's still a big story when it comes to creating the impression of scandal out of thin air.

Most people say, "Where there's smoke, there's fire." I say, "Where there's smoke around a conservative, there are journalists furiously rubbing two sticks together."
Or on forums, two or more trolls blowing smoke and repeating big lies until everyone forgets where the smoke originated.
 
129Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 04:00
the most effective republican speaker of the house ever.

Exactly how do you measure this effectiveness? I'm genuinely curious. He lost seats while Speaker. He faced ethics charges. He forced a confrontation with a weakened President and got his ass handed to him.

By what measure are you calling his tenure "the most effective?" Or even effective?
 
130walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 08:20
NYT, Dowd: My Man, Newt
 
131Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 09:13
the light bulb came on after reading the column linked in post 130.

Baldwin loves Gingrich - they are both have low standards of morality, but only when it applies to themselves and those they support. For the rest, it's a hang 'em high mentality.
 
132Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 00:10
Almost everything positive that happened during his tenure was his accomplishment, not Clinton's.

The Reagan bull market would have ended in the Clinton years if Clinton hadn't lost the House in the election two years into Clinton's first term.

He cut the capital gains tax, not Clinton.

He passed the first balanced budget since 1969, not Clinton.

He passed welfare reform despite several Clinton vetoes.

He helped kill Hillary-Care. Hooray!

He steered Republicans to their first majority in the House of representatives since 1954 thus ending our nation's long nightmare experience with the democrat controlled failed 'Great Society' House of Representatives.

He steered republicans to a second majority win which was the first republican consecutive term majority in 68 years and the first time ever in our country's history that republicans held the house majority while losing the presidential election.

Newt sent that milktoast rat bastard Bob Micheals back to Peoria where he belonged instead of in congress cravenly kowtowing to democrats.

In many ways He was as important if not more important than Reagan in institutionally relegating country club RINO's to second class status in the republican party and putting conservatives in the driver's seat where they belonged.

 
133Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 00:21
And he'd have been Speaker of the House to this day if republicans felt the same way about adulterous BJ's as democrats do.
 
135Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 00:28
Gingrich suggested that Barney Frank and Chris Dodd should be put in jail. “All I’m saying is, everybody in the media who wants to go after the business community ought to start by going after the politicians who were at the heart of the sickness that is weakening this country,” he said.
Absolutely what he said.
 
136Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 00:35
doesn't change the low moral character which you cheer repeatedly, and it's a reflection on your own low moral fiber.

if anything, it shows that as long as the end results meets your own personal agenda, the method, no matter how low, how sleezy, how morally bankrupt, meets your own personal standards and it speaks volumes to your character.
 
139Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 01:56
The FM/FM stuff will be a tough pill for the hard right to swallow after the rightist propaganda machine has spent 4 years regularly demonizing anyone with fingerprints on those institutions.

There was also the use of tax-exempt organizations to fund his political agenda and the false statements he gave to the ethics committee and stood by - until the committee decided to include the integrity of those statements in their greater investigation, when he suddenly came clean.

And of course going on record that more aggressive language went into legislation than otherwise would have because he felt personally offended by Clinton for making him use the rear entrance of the plane, leading to a wildly unpopular shutdown of government that would forever taint his image on both sides of the political aisle.

And while it would take a much closer look than I've taken, I'm sure there's an awful lot of legislative compromising that Gingrich engaged in to realize those parts of his agenda he was able to effect. And who knows what kind of back-room dealing and other shady activities will be uncovered when the PACs start digging? I can't see many moderates over 40 taking him very seriously once they are reminded of the Newt they knew 15 years ago.

The GOP's best chance at an inauguration in 2013 is another economic collapse. In that case a ripe yam could probably beat Obama. Otherwise, if a GOP candidate is going to have any chance at all, it won't be Newt.

Most of the hard right isn't capable of understanding this because they think it simply unfathomable that a plurality of Americans doesn't think exactly like them.
 
140Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 03:45
Newt's latest contribution to his inevitable self destruction:
Gingrich was asked by an audience member to clarify the comments he made last month in which  he called the current child labor laws  ”stupid” and would replace janitors with schoolchildren to work in the community school.

“They have no habit of showing up on Monday and staying all day or the concept of  ’I do this and you give me cash,’ unless it’s illegal,” Gingrich said.

Gingrich said that successful people he knows started work early by doing small jobs like babysitting and shoveling snow.

“You have a very poor neighborhood. You have students that are required to go to school. They have no money, no habit of work,” Gingrich said. “What if you paid them in the afternoon to work in the clerical office or as the assistant librarian? And let me get into the janitor thing. What if they became assistant janitors, and their job was to mop the floor and clean the bathroom?”
 
141Boldwin
      ID: 1111427
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 08:06
Ooooo, we wouldn't want the underclass to learn a work ethic. How would liberals get them back on the welfare plantation?
 
142Boldwin
      ID: 1111427
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 08:11
And Newt was not beating the regulators up whenever they showed up in congress begging to put a stop to the sub-prime train. Like Barney and Chris.
 
143Boldwin
      ID: 1111427
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 08:28
Newt's secret weapon wrt FM/FM.

E.O. 13166

Back when Newt was in congress Clinton created executive order E.O. 13166 which forbid banks from taking into account that the loan application was from an illegal alien.

One politician had the political courage to back the group PRO ENGLISH in their fight against this executive order. Newt Gingerich.

And you guys who think Newt collecting a check from FM was the same as Frank's actions, Newt's advice to FM wasn't, 'Pwease bankwupt ow countwy'.
 
145Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 08:47
Ooooo, we wouldn't want the underclass to learn a work ethic. How would liberals get them back on the welfare plantation?

because, of course, all poor people don't have a work ethic.
 
146Boldwin
      ID: 1111427
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 09:04
Just the ones who don't work.
 
147Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 10:17
so, not working means you don't have a work ethic?

out of curiosity, are you currently working?
 
149sarge33rd
      ID: 17117210
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 11:07
link to what MITH is referencing (I believe) with 140
 
151Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 11:33
Re 141: The problem isn't an attempt to instill the value of work in poor kids. Its standing up in front of an audience and so degrading poor Americans by saying they don't even understand the concept of honest work.

In 2008 Obama told an audience that Americans in industrial areas are long frustrated and so past cynical that government can or will do anything to help their financial situations, and so vote on social issues which they feel they can exert some control over, and that one of the challenges of his campaign is convincing these cynics that this out-of-the-blue candidate can in fact help them. But "they cling to guns and religion" was instead taken as an insult in which he disparaged religious and pro-2nd Amendment Americans as too stupid to understand economics rather than what he actually meant, which is that he has to work to get through their skepticism that the right policies can ease their financial troubles.

The out of context guns and religion meme became a rallying cry that still feeds anti-Obama sentiment today.

Gingrich doesn't even have to be taken out of context. After years of extended high unemployment and record home foreclosures, he explains that poor people are so removed from work that they don't even understand the concept of exchanging work for money unless it's illegal, so it's a good idea to get their children used to mopping floors and cleaning bathrooms while they're young. Anyone who thinks American poor people and plenty others are going to take this as sage advice and not be revolted by it is as stupid as Newt claims poor people are.

And I don't see how opposing an executive order that government services do not discriminate against people with poor English language skills is a secret weapon against the true charge that Newt took in boatloads of cash from FM/FM. I don't think you're saying he used that cash to fight the EO, so I fail to make the connection. Is the argument that FM/FM backed loans to people with poor English is the reason the housing market crashed?
 
152Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 12:28
Another problem the right and some moderates will surely have with Gingrich is his previous support for a progressively structured health insurance mandate based on income. The primary rightist argument against the Obamacare mandate was that its dictatorially invasive and authoritarian and also unconstitutional. I don't think Newt has been held to the fire on this yet. I've seen him dismiss it as an idea that no longer applies to the current problems we face.

That might or might not be true but it doesn't the big problem the right had when Obama proposed it. Newt clearly didn't think it dictatorially invasive or authoritarian. I'd think conservatives will want to know what other mandates might he find appropriate to impose on the American people. That said if it comes down to a primary race between him and Romney, Newt's obviously the lesser evil for them on that issue.
 
153Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 12:36
Back when Newt was in congress Clinton created executive order E.O. 13166 which forbid banks from taking into account that the loan application was from an illegal alien.

One politician had the political courage to back the group PRO ENGLISH in their fight against this executive order. Newt Gingerich.


Did you read the EO? It has to do with people who have limited English skills. It has nothing to do with immigration status.


Newt's hatred of the poor seems to go hand in hand with his inflated sense of self and history. He's a good match for the Tea Party, I think: Short on facts, big on self.
 
154Boldwin
      ID: 1111427
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 12:50
PD

Liberals are quick to recognize 'code words' when they suspect conservatives are using them. There is no other interpretation that makes sense but that this was code for illegal immigrant and the effect certainly was to open the floodgates to illegals with no doc loan applications.
 
155Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 12:51
It is amazing how the fact that something does not, in fact, say what you said it does, doesn't slow you down in the least.
 
156sarge33rd
      ID: 17117210
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 12:52
No Doc mortgages, liar loans etc...didnt become popular at all until circa 2006. They came from marketing greed and not a Clinton EO.

Get your facts straight B. Your bias, so blindingly followed, is so easily recognized as to make you appear juvenile.
 
179Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 11:57
Newt really has no clue about poor children.
“Start with the following two facts: Really poor children in really poor neighborhoods have no habits of working and have nobody around them who works. So they literally have no habit of showing up on Monday. They have no habit of staying all day. They have no habit of ‘I do this and you give me cash’ unless it’s illegal.” (His second “fact” was that every first generational person he knew started work early.)

This statement isn’t only cruel and, broadly speaking, incorrect, it’s mind-numbingly tone-deaf at a time when poverty is rising in this country. He comes across as a callous Dickensian character in his attitude toward America’s most vulnerable — our poor children. This is the kind of statement that shines light on the soul of a man and shows how dark it is.

Could not agree more. He's has come a long way from, "let's give everyone a laptop, kids need access to computers in this new economy" to his new definition and plan for the untouchables.
First, as I’ve pointed out before, three out of four poor working-aged adults — ages 18 to 64 — work. Half of them have full-time jobs and a quarter work part time.

Furthermore, according to an analysis of census data by Andrew A. Beveridge, a sociologist at Queens College, most poor children live in a household where at least one parent is employed. And even among children who live in extreme poverty — defined here as a household with income less than 50 percent of the poverty level — a third have at least one working parent. And even among extremely poor children who live in extremely poor areas — those in which 30 percent or more of the population is poor — nearly a third live with at least one working parent.

Who are the idiots who pay this guy $60k or more to address them?
 
180sarge33rd
      ID: 101112311
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 12:32
Who are the idiots who pay this guy $60k or more to address them?

Registered, straight ticket voters, of the GOP type. (See also, viewers of fauxspews)
 
181soxzeitgeist
      ID: 221112314
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 15:15
Bravo 179.

And more importantly, as this hits very close to home for me, are the families who hover just above the definition of "poor" or the poverty line.

I do everything I'm supposed to do - college education, toe the line on consumer debt, save when I can and live within my means. I have made decisions to consciously try to be of "value" - military service in two different decades, and am fortunate enough to have found a way to get paid to do what I enjoy and be of public service at the same time.

And we struggle like hell.

I knew I'd never get rich (financially) doing this.

I don't begrude anyone my lot in life.

That said, I get incensed when someone like Newt Gingrich - Newt Gingrich(!) - has the g-damn temerity to speak down to the people he's supposed to be serving. And I absolutely abhor the simple minded *ssholes who lap up his ideas like they were good for the country.

The GOP has sh!t on the little guy for decades - my whole adult life - and still people flock to their well marketed, slick Mayberry USA fantasies of "how the USA oughtta be".

I don't get it. More importantly, I don't get why more Progressives don't show up at GOP rallies like Tea Partiers - fully armed and belligerent.

Yeah this is a rant, and it can be deleted for content, but I needed to get it off my chest. Guess I've reached my quota of keeping quiet thru the countless (truth free and poorly researched) posts over myriad threads from the poster here who is a complete sideline sitter (except to complain and throw verbal firebombs in the forum).

Disgusting.
 
182Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 16:04
Mona Charen takes apart Gingrich and his chances.
 
183Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 16:38
kudos to 181. there are days when i am frustrated that i went to college, moved out on my own after getting my degree, and went right to work, while friends of mine didn't graduate college, lived with their parents forever, and goofed off after college, but are doing VERY well right now because of their decisions.
 
184Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 22:47
The GOP has sh!t on the little guy for decades - my whole adult life

People like you have been the ball and chain keeping me down my whole life.
 
185Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 22:59
Would it kill you to let me be middle class?
 
186DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 23:11
Depends on whose heads you insist on stepping on to be there.
 
187sarge33rd
      ID: 101112311
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 23:13
roflmfao "let" you be...? I thought as a Republican/Conservative type, you were solely responsible for your own station in life, w/o regard to outside influence(s)/stimuli.

 
188soxzeitgeist
      ID: 421131322
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 23:37
*laughing*

How sad. And typical.

You proudly sit on the sidelines, but then take time to whine about the world in these forums. You don't participate in the body politic, except to vent your bile and write things on the internet that you wouldn't dare say to anyone face to face. You repeatedly and steadfastly refuse to answer direct questions, ignore facts when they don't fit your narrow worldview, and castigate and belittle other posters when their arguments are stronger than yours.

You have consistently demonstrated double standards and some of the most hypocritical, Machivellian and un-christian attitudes and opinions ever committed to the internet in this forum. Your embrace of authors, pundits and commentators who desire to relegate women, minorities and non-christians to second class citizenship status is well documented. Your fear of anyone who doesn't believe or act just like you is breathtaking.

Your paranoid rambling about a new world order, or any number of masonic/rothschild/illuminati conspiracies have derailed almost every thread you participate in.

Even on a subject as simple as your last post, you're off the mark.

You're pathetic. You don't know a single thing about me, much less "people like (me)". That would take time, effort and an open mind. You would have to volunteer to serve something bigger than your own interests.

Maybe your bluster gets over on the people in your life you can bully, but it's tired and played out here.
 
189Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 23:58
I know your own self-image is more important to you than whether your ideas actually help or hurt people in the real world.
 
190sarge33rd
      ID: 101112311
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 00:11
B? You are playing the victim card here. You know that right? You're becoming what you profess to despise...a whining, sniveling, pitiful me;...victim.

Had a whole paragraph of philosophy here but decided you'd just dismiss it anyway.
 
191Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 00:16
That's what tyrants do. Create victims. Oh, but your intentions are so good.
 
192sarge33rd
      ID: 101112311
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 00:28
Would like to know, when a TYRANT, was a social liberal; providing ample educational assistance, healthcare, housing, etc etc.

Dont give me nonsense about communism and such. NAME, the socially liberal TYRANT.
 
193Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 00:43
Every liberal who wants to put a gaunlet of merciless government DMV workers and a sea of red tape between me and success.

'For my own good'.

Because only you have the good intentions and wisdom to run everyone else's life for them.
 
194sarge33rd
      ID: 101112311
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 00:48
No Boldwin. No generic, meaningless, snivelling "them". You said TYRANTS do that. NAME, the tyrant. Name him/her. Because the truth is, there is no such thing as a socially liberal tyrant. Does not exist, as the terms are mutually exclusive.

No more free pass for erroneous, overt generalizations. Name the tyrant.
 
195Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 01:03
If I remembered your name I'd tell you.

You want to tax everything surrounding me from the mineral rights below my feet to the air we breathe, back thru the generations and into future generations.

You want to 'smart code' [smart because you came up with it, not me] my every choice in life and take away my every freedom. Where I live, what I live in, how I raise my kids, what I eat, what I do on my property.

You want to censor my media, censor my speech, hold my job as a hostage against whatever trendy PC violation I might make.

You want to leave me defenseless while you worry about some other class you favor more. Like the criminal class.

Oh, but you will leave me the choice of changing my sex, killing a baby or marrying a homosexual so at least I've got that going for me.
 
196Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 01:06
You've got your tenacles into more pores than tyrants of the past even dreamed of controlling.
 
197sarge33rd
      ID: 101112311
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 01:08
B, take your false platitudes; your phoney allegations; your trumped up BS charges...and stuff them where the sun dont shine.
 
198Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 03:29
Most people on the left just want the wealthy to pay their fair share. That way no one else has to get everything taxed like Baldwin fears.

If the wealthy were paying standard, current rates on all their income (including capital gains), we would be in a hell of a lot better off.

As it is, the Right wants to both prevent the wealthy from paying the same rates on their income as everyone else, while somehow keeping other areas of revenue that actually affect them off limits, at the same time as carving out huge areas of the budget (military spending, money to Israel, Medicare, etc) as being untouchable.

The math doesn't add up.

If I were in their shoes and made it a dogmatic point that the wealthy shall enjoy much smaller rates of taxation on their money as the rest of us, I too would be worried about getting taxed about everything else. Because the math doesn't care what your party affiliation is.
 
199Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 07:35
I've never met anyone who wants people to be able to buy a tax break. That's the system which is broken. That isn't left or right.

The right doesn't want the rich taxed lower than anyone else and the rich don't have enuff money to satisfy all of your utopian spending if we taxed them 100%.

Your harping on taxing the rich is just sleight-of-hand hoping people won't notice you want to tax everyone to death.

Trapping the poor in perpetual poverty and eliminating the middle and upper class is no way for anyone to go thru life.
 
200Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 09:05
R's want to teach a person to fish, D's want to just give him the fish........after taking the fish from someone else.
 
201biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 09:38
Exactly how are Rs teaching people to fish? By keeping taxes so low we are having to slash school budgets?
 
202Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 10:44
Every liberal who wants to put a gaunlet of merciless government DMV workers and a sea of red tape between me and success.

now you're blaming the DMV for you being a failure.

you're failure because you reap what you sow. you spend so much time disrepecting others, so much time hurling insults and names, and so much time foaming at the mouth blaming everyone but yourself for being a failure, it's only natural you're going to fail.

take responsibility for your own failures. don't blame others. DMV workers??? really?? lol.

and post 195 sums it up perfectly. you've blamed everyone else, but not accepted responsibility for your own shortcomings and failures. you absolutely have become that which you claim to despise.
 
203bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 11:05
Baldwin - what is success for you?
 
204Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 11:08
bibA

I'd even settle for freedom.
 
205biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 11:16
There are places with no government in this world, Boldwin. You are welcome to go see if you like them, though I'm guessing you would not.
 
206Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 11:25
bibA

This isn't just about 'success'.

This isn't about how big my house is.

I just would like to be able to drive down to the bank with my rent money or my house paymment...

... without having some car-jacker invite himself into my car, throw my money out the window to be be picked up by his friends, anyone passing by regardless of wealth, and maybe just maybe a poor person,and probably in that order...

...and then hearing that car-jacker turn to me and say 'why can't you be generous like me, and when are you gonna stop sh!ting on the little guy'? [sparkling monolog courtesy soxzeitgeist]
 
207Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 11:29
biliruben

You are right of course. I don't like OWS either.
 
208Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 12:43
I'd even settle for freedom.

You're a prisoner of victim status, negativity, cynicism and a distorted view of reality. Until you address those personal foibles, you will be unable to appreciate the incredible freedoms that we enjoy as Americans.

I'm not confident that a person your age who is so fully committed to bitterness and self pity can recover so that your golden years can be spent enjoying the wonderful life that a positive outlook affords. You obviously have a close and positive relationship with your church, maybe you can parlay that relationship into a better appreciation of your freedoms.
 
209Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 12:47
re:208

Of course I have no idea what your real life is like, so my comments are based strictly on your Rotoguru politcal forum persona.
I could be way off base as to what your outlook is when you're logged off.
 
210Boldwin
      ID: 28111535
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 13:54
Yeah, you wouldn't recognize me without the troll armor on.
 
211Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 14:24

I just would like to be able to drive down to the bank with my rent money or my house paymment...

... without having some car-jacker invite himself into my car,


sounds like you need a bank in a better neighborhood.

also, you could join the rest of the world and make your payments online.

if you weren't such an a$$ online, it would be easy to feel sorry for how sad and pathetic and miserable you sound. but, again, you reap what you sow.
 
212DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 14:47
Re: 210 -- I think we found your problem. Troll armor only fits trolls. If you're wearing it, well...
 
213Boldwin
      ID: 261149414
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 16:07
you will be unable to appreciate the incredible freedoms that we enjoy as Americans. - PV

To some extent you are living in the past and I am living in the future. I know, you think that's backwards.

You can fool yourself into thinking that freedom still exists, but you are living in a world where you can have your world burned down to the ground over an innocent twitter, a comment over the air. It's comforting to think you are still free while you are compelled or dumbed down lobotomized to toe the PC party line religiously, every word and deed.

I know how bad it's going to get [before it gets better], so in that sense I don't have the comfort your denial affords you nor the false safety of your slavish compliance.
 
214Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 16:52
Nor do you have the historical sense to see which party has been most behind these takings in the name of national security.
 
215Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 17:13
I know how bad it's going to get

No you don't. You don't have any kind of psychic powers. You can only speculate based on your gloom and doom mentality. Is there an epidemic of worlds being burned down over an innocent twitter or a comment over the air that I'm not aware of?

It's comforting to think you are still free while you are compelled or dumbed down lobotomized to toe the PC party line religiously, every word and deed.

Where do come up with crap like this, stringing together a bunch of words with absolutely no meaning? I want examples of my being compelled or dumbed down lobotomized to to the PC party line religiously, every word and deed. Where I live, the PC party line is attend church on Sunday and have family home evening on Monday nights. I have the freedom to eschew such activities and play golf, go skiing, watch football, do yardwork, whatever. My freedoms are constrained by laws, but I have no desire to drink and drive, do drugs, steal or assault people. I could own a gun (since I'm not a felon), but would be restrictions as to where I could discharge it. I can drive my car, since I can afford insurance and have a valid license. I can take my personal watercraft to numerous lakes and reservoirs because I can afford to properly license and insure them.

I can't have a horse or other farm animals on my property. although I could, and did, in my last house because it was zoned for horses, chickens, pigs and goats. If I still wanted a horse, I had the freedom to stay where I was.

History is rich with examples of peoples who don't enjoy basic freedoms. You make a mockery of these peoples with your claims that modern America lacks freedom.

Speaking of dumbed down lobotomized, I submit the following statement in the Taking of Antelope Valley thread for consideration:

these issues have already been set in stone and agreed to between your regional planners, ICLIE and the UN and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it even if every last person in your town thinks you should make your other decisions.

 
216Boldwin
      ID: 261149414
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 17:14
Whether Ollie North designed Garden Plot/Cable Splice or Obama implimented it, I don't think there will be much joy or point in winning the debate over who was more responsible.
 
217Boldwin
      ID: 261149414
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 17:22
PV

Everyone in Antelope Valley is against what the regional plan is doing to them, so why can't they change it?

It really is an evil genius the way globalists have of doing an endrun around democracy. Cateloging these tricks is a final frontier on this board.
 
218sarge33rd
      ID: 271155415
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 17:52
Everyone...

Really? EVERYONE? Not one person is in favor? NONE?
 
219Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 18:13
You can fool yourself into thinking that freedom still exists, but you are living in a world where you can have your world burned down to the ground over an innocent twitter, a comment over the air.

to the best of my recollection, you're the only member in the history of this message board to threaten to sue another member of this message board for their posts.
 
220Boldwin
      ID: 261149414
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 18:16
Try treating SZ or MBJ the way you have treated me and see whether the lawsuit is just speculative.
 
221sarge33rd
      ID: 271155415
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 18:23
neither SZ nor MBJ, has been or would be, as utterly looney tunes as you have
 
222Boldwin
      ID: 261149414
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 18:33
MBJ likes my posts better than you know.
 
223sarge33rd
      ID: 271155415
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 18:36
no accounting for taste
 
224Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 19:21
MBJ rarely posts because of the crap on the boards. I believe MBJ feels the exact opposite of your posts than you think he does.
 
225bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 19:55
Everyone in Antelope Valley is against what the regional plan is doing to them

Not sure if you will find this good news or bad. I have sisters, brothers-in-law, nieces, nephews, former classmates, and numerous friends who reside in AV. I have seen and visited scores of them in the past months, and none of them have indicated any negative feelings over some aspect of a regional plan they feel is affecting them. One brother-in-law is a business owner, one is in real estate, and the friends are all doing quite well, seem as happy now as they have ever been, and are all on a par with people "down below", here in the LA area.
 
226DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 20:19
Don't let facts get in the way of a good lunatic rant. They're obviously all part of the vast left-wing conspiracy.
 
227sarge33rd
      ID: 271155415
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 20:32
 
228Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Dec 04, 2011, 21:39
Try treating SZ or MBJ the way you have treated me and see whether the lawsuit is just speculative.

way to miss the point.

"the way you have treated me." lol. wow, you've been so victimized and abused. holy cow. seriously, are you about to cry?
 
231Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 09:30
I am going to do my part for this thread and this board and stop feeding the bear by not responding to crazed, self-serving rants ever again.
 
232chode
      ID: 511150512
      Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 13:50
I'll take that action.

 
233Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 17:25
Pelosi releases Gingrich ethics panel docs

Just a reminder of the kind of guy he was the last time he had his hands on real power.
 
234Boldwin
      ID: 171144615
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 17:37
Just a reminder. Contributions to the Tides Foundation which funds virtually every Democrat group in the country, are tax deductible.

The idea that Gingerich' college course wasn't exactly the same thing and therefore deserving the same tax-free status is ludicrous.
 
235sarge33rd
      ID: 581115611
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 17:43
In a thumbnail, Congress accepted the committee report, which found that Gingrich used tax exempt contributions for political purposes and then attempted to mislead the Ethics Committee about it. Pelosi sat on the Ethics Committee at the time, so has vivid knowledge of the whole business.

Gingrich was fined $300,000 and reprimanded twice, becoming the only House Speaker in history to be reprimanded by the House.


damn facts
 
236Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 17:48
It's hard to believe that we are 235 posts into this, and Gingrich's only supporter still can't spell his name correctly!
 
237Boldwin
      ID: 171144615
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 18:00
Liberals don't believe in any other social convention. Why should spelling be any different?
 
238Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 18:08
Are you a liberal now? Or is spelling just another example of a convention you jettison as soon as you think the other side gets away without it?
 
239sarge33rd
      ID: 581115611
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 18:19
LiberalsUFO's don't believe in any other social convention. Why should spelling be any different?
 
240Tree
      ID: 211130614
      Tue, Dec 06, 2011, 22:15
Apparently, Baldwin can't spell.
 
241Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 06:40
I wonder how many lurkers now associate me with UFO's even when I've never once discussed the subject and have no interest in the issue?

That's quite a determined and sophisticated dirty trick on Sarge's part to tie me to that meme without the slightest justification. What's that, about the eighth time you've pulled that in the last two months, Sarge?
 
242sarge33rd
      ID: 10114586
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 07:45
and you have no clue why, do you?
 
243Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 08:28
I indeed have a clue which you've denied many times, but then you would deny it if I am right.
 
244sarge33rd
      ID: 10114586
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 08:30
obviously you do not. You have just proven, you dont bother to read/retain the various comments made regarding the degradation in quality of your posts.

Ask sox, if you want to know.
 
245Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 08:35
Walter Lippman on soft tyranny:
Throughout the world, in the name of progress, men who call themselves communists, socialists, fascists, nationalists, progressives and even liberals, are unanimous in holding that government with its instruments of coercion, must by commanding the people how they shall live, direct the course of civilization and fix the shape of things to come.... [T]he premises of authoritarian collectivism have become the working beliefs, the self-evident assumptions, the unquestioned axioms, not only of all the revolutionary regimes, but of nearly every effort which lays claim to being enlightened, humane, and progressive.

So universal is the dominion of this dogma over the minds of contemporary men that no one is taken seriously as a statesman or a theorist who does not come forward with proposals to magnify the power of public officials and to extend and multiply their intervention in human affairs. Unless he is authoritarian and collectivist, he is a mossback, a reactionary, at best an amiable eccentric swimming hopelessly against the tide. It is a strong tide. Though despotism is no novelty in human affairs, it is probably true that at no time in twenty-five hundred years has any western government claimed for itself a jurisdiction over men's lives comparable with that which is officially attempted in totalitarian states....

But it is even more significant that in other lands where men shrink from the ruthless policy of these regimes, it is commonly assumed that the movement of events must be in the same direction. Nearly everywhere, the mark of a progressive is that he relies at last upon an increased power of officials to improve the condition of men.
Why for 'progressives' the inexorable 'march of human progress' must always be in the direction of tyranny.
 
246sarge33rd
      ID: 10114586
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:02
except, that tyranny is the domain of the conservative, not the progressive.
 
247soxzeitgeist
      ID: 11113287
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:08
Nearly everywhere, the mark of a progressive is that he relies at last upon an increased power of officials to improve the condition of men.

Perhaps that's because when, as a species and left to our own devices, we do some degree of the most horriffice things to one another.

Each news cycle, each new day is rife with examples of how badly we need to make the effort to curb our worst impulses, from white collar fraud to genocide and all the gray in between.

You call it tyranny? It's more like keeping the wolves at bay.

(PS)
I've noticed you love to run with worst case "what if's" in general, so I'll try to address all your posts in the same spirit from now on.

Or I could just run with my philosophy from post 15 in another thread.
 
248Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:11
each new day is rife with examples of how badly we need to make the effort to curb our worst impulses

Especially the most dangerous one. Statism.
 
249Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:16
Charlie Manson had the impulse to kill @32 people in a career.

Mao would kill 32,000 before having breakfast. And most of Obama's cabinet appointees think he was the best thing since sliced bread.
 
250sarge33rd
      ID: 10114586
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:16
proof of that contention, vs it being your own biased opinion.
 
251soxzeitgeist
      ID: 11113287
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:20
horriffice n. a horrible orifice

Grrrr typos.

You miss the point, or choose not to recognize it.

Everything you take for granted, every day, is made possible by "the state", the rule of law, the social contract - whatever you want to call it. Projecting your own worst fears about mans possible woest behavior only reenforces the point - at the core you think humanity is rootten. Rules, government is wht stop that.
 
252Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:30
Humanity is rotten? Until it gets worse. Power corrupts.
 
253Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:45
"Some man's gone and tried to run my life. Don't know what he's askin'. He can't even run his own life. I'll be damned if he'll run mine."
 
254Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:49
Tyranny can be the domain of either the conservative or the progressive, or neither.

It's a form of tyranny to apply the term solely to one or the other.

But you'll notice in the statement above, Throughout the world, in the name of progress, men who call themselves communists, socialists, fascists, nationalists, progressives and even liberals, are unanimous in holding that government with its instruments of coercion, must by commanding the people how they shall live, direct the course of civilization and fix the shape of things to come....

conservatives are omitted. Using the word unanimous is, in itself, a blanket condemnation that leads to tyrannical reactions guised as "core principles." Any group which lays claim to being the "only way" is a group which is susceptible to using tyranny as an end to justify their means.


 
255Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 09:54
And most of Obama's cabinet appointees think he was the best thing since sliced bread.

A perfect example of a tyrannical statement masked as an innocent musing. Do you have any musings as to how many Chiang Kai-shek would kill before breakfast?
 
256Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 10:03
I know that the island would sink if China let anyone from China emigrate to it who wanted to.
 
257Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 10:17
Chiang Kai-shek was a mass murderer long before he fled to Taiwan, and continued his tyranny once he landed there. The capability to ignore that which conflicts with an unbending ideology lays the very roots for tyranny. Yet, you somehow convince yourself that you are above such self-examination, which makes you a dangerous ideologue, as opposed to the shining example of human compassion you claim to represent.
 
258Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 10:33
Open the border and let's see. I dare ya', China.
 
259Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 10:39
Yet, you somehow convince yourself that you are above such self-examination, which makes you a dangerous ideologue

You mean like when you have never managed to ask yourself why people always vote with their feet against you? When they can.
 
260Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 10:51
"Wait, wait...Our highly trained social scientists are even now busily crafting a perfected society of equality, peace, order, guidance...in ways you could never conceive of by your puny own self." - Egon Krenz

"Stick your unsigned social contract where the sun don't shine." - East Germans
 
261Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 11:08
#256, 258, 259 and 260.

Childish, irrelevant and distractive posts. Your superiority complex speaks for itself when the subject of tyranny is broached.

You mean like when you have never managed to ask yourself why people always vote with their feet against you? When they can.

What a moronic approach to discussion. No, I mean like you somehow convince yourself that you are above such self-examination, which makes you a dangerous ideologue.

 
262Mith
      ID: 46121210
      Fri, Dec 09, 2011, 13:34
Noonan
 
263Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 09, 2011, 13:42
Just a few of Newt's hypocritical acts.

Just ran across this quote from Ann Coulter.

That sound you hear is Boldwin's brain exploding.
 
264Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 03:15
There's establishment and then there's establishment.

Mitt is establishment in the sense that he is just part of the neoliberal Democrat/Republican combine where there is no real difference between the parties. And it's a pro-big government combine.

He's just as statist as any big government liberal. He just wants to be the tax collector for the enemies of conservatism.
-------
Newt is establishment in the sense that he knows every corner of the place. He understands Congress to the level that when he was Speaker, he term-limited committee heads so they couldn't build private fiefdoms where they could build power-bases to compete with the the Speaker. That is true insider mastery of the establishment.
------

The difference is that Newt as an establishment insider isn't welcome at toney Georgetown dinner parties where they take turns sneering at middle Americans as if they were funny hobbits from middle earth. [I'm looking at you John McCain]

 
265Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 05:36
Newt fends off a cautiously respectful Glenn Beck's brickbats in a one on one interview.
 
266Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 11:06
The difference is that Newt as an establishment insider isn't welcome at toney Georgetown dinner parties where they take turns sneering at middle Americans as if they were funny hobbits from middle earth .

When dealing with actual facts, I'll remind all that Newt Gingrich is a member of Trump National Golf Club in Northern Virginia. Membership fees are undisclosed, but when Trump took the property over, he promised a "very substantial" increase from the going $75,000 rate.

link

Easy to claim Gingrich isn't welcome at toney Georgetown parties, because it's simply a statement, with no supporting evidence. And while I don't know if the members of Trump National take turns sneering at middle Americans as if they were funny hobbits from middle earth, it's a good bet that people capable of paying twice what a middle class American makes in a year to be a member of an exclusive golf club are in any way sensitive to the struggles of the average working American.

What makes anyone think Romney is more welcome at Georgetown dinner parties than Gingrich? Romney doesn't drink alcohol and he's never worked in DC; never been a paid Washington lobbyist or political consultant; never been buddies with Jack Abramoff; never spent 20 years on the government dole as a congressman. Prior to that, Newt was a history teacher(government job), and you've made no bones about your distaste for teachers.

Most of the time Gingrich was living off a government paycheck, Romney was a private businessman, a free market capitalist. So who's really the one intimately involved with pro-big government combine their entire career?



 
267Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 11:25
264 - You're talking about the same Newt who said told one interviewer, "If you're not in the Washington Post everyday, you might as well not exist" and told another that the reason he attended a dinner at the National Press Club was so that "the news media could see me walking through the crowd."? The same Newt who dreamt up and advocated healthcare mandates before anyone ever heard of Barak Obama, who worked with Pelosi on Cap and Trade, derided Paul Ryan's Medicare proposal as right-wing social engineering, publicly mused the implementation of a qualifying test which citizens must pass before they may vote and took 7 figures from Freddie Mac for what he claims were "history lessons"?

That doesn't sound like a Washington insider, establishment candidate?
 
268Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 11:37
FWIW, this article claims Gingrich is a "confirmed mason".
 
269Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Dec 10, 2011, 12:47
Here's a question Boldwin: does Newt Gingrich fit your definition of globalist?
 
270Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 05:24
There are manifold reasons Newt never climbed closer than third place [even now] in my personal approval rating of the candidates.

With Newt you can never tell if he keeps accidentally falling for big 'futurist' ideas which just happen to have globalist bugs to be ironed out or if those were actually features to him.

If he were reliably anti-globalist and reliably conservative his skills at getting legislation passed would have vaulted him to the head of the pack earlier.

At least he's partisan, which I see as a feature, not a bug.

Conservatives would need to keep riding shotgun on him.
 
271Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 11:17
At least he's partisan, which I see as a feature, not a bug.

as you drift further away from your hero, Reagan.
 
272sarge33rd
      ID: 331156119
      Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 12:06
partisan, by definition, is contrary to the overall welfare of the nation. It serves, only a segment, not the whole. It is in fact a 'bug', and not a feature.
 
273Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 13:35
Committed partisanship is definitely a tea party prerequisite but it's certainly not limited to that sector of the political right.

I think it's time the hard right comes around to acknowledge that the TP's influence on the GOP politics has severely waned. Neither of the two frontrunners really approaches the tea party mold except for their partisanship, and every candidate who has cracked double digits has projected partisanship in spades.

The argument will be that Cain was undone by the scandal and Bachman by her inability to fundraise and the support had to go somewhere.

But the rise of Gingrich counters this. I read yesterday that through September his campaign had only spent $2.5m. I don't know how much Bachman has spent but it can't be much less that. And she's had strong name recognition and has easily enjoyed the most TP-friendly exposure since Obama was elected,

And of course it appears that most of Cain's supporters went right over to known serial adulterer, Newt - and not Rick Santorum, who I think better fits the tea party mold.
 
274Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 19:08
Glenn Beck tells Andrew Napolitano that Tea Partiers who support Newt Gingrich over Obama are probably racists.

Beck's challenge to Tea Partiers:
You read this guy's record," he said. "You read his words...see what he believes. This man is a progressive. He knows he's a progressive. He doesn't have a problem with being a progressive. So if you've got a big government progressive [in Gingrich] or a big government progressive in Obama, one in Newt Gingrich, one in Obama, ask yourself this Tea Party. Is it about Obama's race? Because that's what it appears to be to me. If you're against him but you're for this guy, it must be about race."
 
275Razor
      ID: 1111191120
      Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 21:19
Glenn Beck is still relevant?
 
276Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 21:31
Thats a question for the resident Glenn Beck fan.
 
277Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 08:37
1) Yeah Beck is still relevant to the same people he was always relevant to.

2) Beck has a bit more problem than most accepting that Newt as a proficient politician is all things to all people. And yes you can tell when Newt is lying because his lips are moving. Usually. In the sense that he is always telling some audience what they want to hear. Whether he will actually be loyal to CFR goals and people across the isle whom he has traded horses with over his own base...seems to me he usually picks his base when it counts.

I'm all for taking people at their word, but it helps to know the context and Newt's record.

What do you make of it when he's praising Roosevelt one day and talking like Reagan the other six days a week? I assume he is throwing the new deal folks a bone while operating like Reagan until the results say otherwise.
 
278Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 09:50
Funny thing is that you can never tell from one week to the next whether Newt will be painted as a bomb-thowing outsider or a cozy establishment insider. Whichever the MSM thinks will damage him the most atm.
 
279Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 10:14
Whichever the MSM thinks will damage him the most atm.

Then we must conclude that Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck fit your definition of the MSM. Thanks for the clarification.
 
280Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 11:44
Napolotano's show is on FBN I think. That's MSM. Beck was his guest. And it might make sense that Fox has it out for Newt since most smart people think he'd stand little chance next year unless the economy collapses again.

But now Coulter, Beck and Bachmann have all quite viciously attacked Gingrich's conservative cred. Something tells me they won't be the last tea party darlings to do so (I don't think Alex Jones likely counts). And there are still some pretty glaring unanswered questions there. The one I'd like answered is what this 60-something year old career historian suddenly learned about the constitutionality of healthcare mandates sometime around May of 2007.

In any case there's no question that he isn't a tea party candidate and the chances of the TP getting one of their own at the top of the 2012 GOP ballot appear to be nil at this point.
 
281Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 00:18
Michael Savage offers Newt $1 million to drop out.

This is less than Newt made from "advising" the Fed--it seems unlike he'd take this deal.
 
282Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 06:49
Will see if the Bachmann bump from Iowa has any effect. Without question she'd be better for the TP. I'd still rather it be West.
 
283Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 09:13
Neither Bachmann nor West represent Tea Party interests, as they both favor continued aggressive and expensive military spending that has nothing to do with national defense.

Then again, there really isn't a "the Tea Party." There are literally scores of groups using the moniker(Tea Party Nation, Tea Party Express, Tea Party Patriots, Tea Party Federation, Tea Party Coalition on a national scale, as well as all the local chapters).

The presidential candidate who most exemplifies the original mandate of the Tea Party is Ron Paul, considered the "intellectual godfather" of the movement, and supported by an October 2010 Washington Post canvass of 647 local Tea Party organizers asked "which national figure best represents your groups?" and got the following responses: no one 34%, Sarah Palin 14%, Glenn Beck 7%, Jim DeMint 6%, Ron Paul 6%, Michele Bachmann 4%.

Failure to recognize Paul as a Tea Party candidate is a failure to understand the Tea Party. As long as the Boldwins are stepping up as psuedo-representatives of the movement, it will simply be a partisan political representation of the far right wing of the Republican Party, with little identity beyond the failures of promoting Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann and Herman Cain.



 
284Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 09:40
Beyond one inexplicable [to me] win in a CPAC convention I can't remember any evidence whatsoever where Paul 'best' represents conservatives.

I think the best explanation of the Tea Party is Americans alarmed by a slide into bankruptcy and european socialism.

But it would be wrong to think the set of people that includes are soft on defense or bereft of social conservatism.
 
285Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 10:02
And that delusional description of either conservatives or the TP as 'the far right wing' of the Republican Party...

Take out Mitt's 20%-23% of Republicans, leave the rest and you've just described 90% of the Tea Party. Mitt is on the far left. They aren't on the far right.
 
286Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 10:23
We sure hope so, Boldwin. Nothing like a party deciding to take itself out of the mainstream to help out the Dems.

Democrats went through the same thing in the 70s.

As for Ron Paul, a guy who supports smaller government strictly bound by very specific mandates would certainly be a Tea Party darling if only the Tea Party followed its own ideals and stated goals.

But they don't. The Tea Party fully supports the expansion of government in areas that are unsustainable, so long as they match their own interests.
 
287Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 10:47
Yeah, they'd raise taxes for expansion of what?
 
288Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 10:54
Oh, and about those 'ideals'...I expect you take the fact that they have limited their core demands to small government/fiscal responsibility for the sake of alliance building, to mean fundamental philosophical dismissal of social issues on into eternity.

Oh no...that is just a hiatus in the face of imminent European Socialism and imminent bankruptcy. If they can save the country from imminent demise most of them will eagerly go back to the rest of the conservative agenda.
 
289boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 11:10
Can some explain to me what is going on here? I thought Gingrich was running for president to sell books how in the world is he the front runner?
 
290Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 11:14
I can't remember any evidence whatsoever where Paul 'best' represents conservatives.

Thought we were talking about the Tea Party. When you bandwagoned the movement to fit your brand of conservatism, you stripped it of any identity other than representative of the far right wing of the Republican party.

soft on defense

Right there you abandon any credibility about out of control spending, since what you really mean is soft on aggressive offensive global military spending unrelated to defending the country. Well, there was that Iranian spy drone we took down over Idaho.




 
291Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 11:15
Generic republican does outstanding against Mitt.
 
292Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 11:27
I think a debate over just how much isolationism the USA could survive is an excellent one and Paul does well to start it. Nation building certainly is a dubious proposition.

I'd be interested in seeing how many isolationists there are and where they come from. And a venn diagram of them and the Tea party. In fact let's also find a OWS/TP venn diagram.

One thing I do know is that President Paul telling Israel to 'Talk to the hand' while attempting to seduce Iran's mullah's into liking us would be one of the most humiliating scenes of 'world leader failing to understand the concept' of all time.
 
293Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 11:38
One thing I do know is that President Paul telling Israel to 'Talk to the hand' while attempting to seduce Iran's mullah's into liking us would be one of the most humiliating scenes of 'world leader failing to understand the concept' of all time.

So when you say "soft on defense" what you really mean is soft on defense of Israel in regards to Iran. That would be nuclear-armed Israel defending against isolated Iran who is busily scouring their skies for more US spy drones. Given your history of failing to understand the concept of geopolitics in the region, it's understandable why you would think the out-of-control spending dreams of West and Bachmann would trump an authentic Tea Party spokesman like Rand Paul.
 
294Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 11:45
Find some evidence. I'm curious. Have fun looking.

I think your instincts on the TP are suspect to say the least.
 
295Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 11:54
No I wasn't trying to say Israel is or should be the focus of foreign policy. It's just the most obvious case of a President Paul coming across like a kindergartner on the world stage. He makes Jimmy Carter looks like a wise statesman by comparison and that takes some doing.
 
296Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 12:23
I thought you regarded Pat Buchanan as the consummate foreign policy paleoconservative. How is Paul so different?
 
297Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 13:18
Yeah, they'd raise taxes for expansion of what?

I never said they'd raise taxes. Part of the problem with the Tea Party is their basic math skills. They want to lower taxes but expand the military and Medicare (just to name two programs).

#288: What? I have no idea what you are saying. It sounds like you wanted to insult someone but language got in the way here.
 
298Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 13:49
I think your instincts on the TP are suspect to say the least.

I stated above that there is no "the Tea Party." Your instincts are that there is consensus among the varied groups within the movement. Facts indicate otherwise. Ron and Rand Paul favor a Jeffersonian, "neo-isolationist" approach that seeks to avoid foreign military involvement. Another contingency, initially led by Sarah Palin, now more so by Bachmann, favors a more aggressive, and much more expensive response to maintaining America's primacy in international relations.

Some, like Congessman Jason Chaffetz, feel Bachmann and the Tea Party caucus has hijacked the Tea Party's populist origins with her connections to the Koch Brother's billions in special interest money.

Others feel the Tea Party should concentrate solely on government spending and eschew positions on social issues.

So you can find my instincts on the Tea Party suspect all you want, but it's based solely on what you think the Tea Party should be as opposed to the reality of what it is.

 
299boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 15:58
I am confused again I thought Rand Paul was darling of the Tea party in Kentucky, but his father is not?
 
300sarge33rd
      ID: 411131315
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 16:13
Busey endorses Newt

When challenged to explain his selection, Mr Busey attempted to construct a logic tree which would detail how he arrived at such a conclusion. Unfortunately,...

it proved to be too much for him
 
301sarge33rd
      ID: 411131315
      Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 16:19
Read B's post nr1 here

and then substitute Newt Gingrich for Mitt Romney:

That's because there is no Real Mitt RomneyNewt Gingrich.

Zero core values and principles.

He just wants to be the engineer on the train. Any train.



And could someone please tell me where those two statements are ANY different, ie less accurate, from one another?
 
302Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 20:37
Political principles vs sexual morals.

Put them together and you'd have Alan West. But the MSM doesn't want anyone to see him. They'd rather give us the yin and yang half-a-loaf twins.
 
303Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 21:14
You forgot regular ethics--because West doesn't have them.
 
304Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 21:40
today, it's the MSM's fault. shocking.
 
305Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 21:36
Apparenly West (and Boldwin) believe that if only there was a Nazi metaphor for your political opponents. Because then people will vote for you in droves...
 
306sarge33rd
      ID: 3911381521
      Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 22:38
“If Joseph Goebbels was around, he’d be very proud of the Democrat Party, because they have an incredible propaganda machine,” West told reporters during House votes Thursday afternoon. “Let’s be honest, you know, some of the people in the media are complicit with this and enabling them to get that type of message out.”

And here I have been for years, stating that the GOP has the better marketing team. If they didn't, they wouldnt have won an election outside of Malibu, Hollywood Hills, and similar localized areas.
 
307Boldwin
      ID: 4111685
      Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 08:23
The media is so biased I am amazed americans don't turn their TV's facing out the windows in protest like they did in East Germany to protest the marxist propaganda.
 
308Boldwin
      ID: 58112185
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 06:17
Mark Steyn dropping some unpleasant realities in conservative's laps.

To wit, too little difference between an ambitious 'futurist' and a big government liberal.

Conservatives need to stop for a moment oohing and aahing over Newt's undeniable intelligence and consider Mark's Steyn's wisdom. As I've stated before he would need to be ridden shotgun over to keep him on the conservative path and from lifting off like Marvin the martian. I've seen it done successfully recently over Agenda 21. I think we can rein him in from his previous infatuation with cap-n-trade.

Even more disturbing, Boehner was once the less conservative alternative to Newt for the Speaker's gavel. Who specifically will ride shotgun?

So we'd have to ride shotgun on the both of them. Then again David's every 'hell no' to Obama had me thinking the steering has been successful.
 
309bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 08:49
Baldwin, if Gingrich were to win, and someone were to "ride shotgun" over him, do you think it should be done by those as far right such as yourself, or by a consensus of the American people?
 
310Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 09:15
Considering how divided America is between those favoring a european socialist model and those favoring a traditional American model, what consensus is there these days? You can't split that baby down the middle.

The side that wins gets to rule, and right now that is a very scary proposition for the loser.
 
311bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 09:35
A consensus in our democracy is usually found in the three branches of government.

Newt would have some kind of mandate, the legislative branch would be the other representative for the people, and the judicial would attempt to ensure legality.

Assuming you can't "split that baby down the middle", you're answer is apparently that those left to "ride shotgun" are the far right, correct? (less neocons of course)

 
312Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 11:53
I'd call it the Reagan majority.
 
313Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 12:36
Too bad Reagan is too far to the left to be invited to your party.
 
314Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 12:52
Too bad Reagan is too far to the left to be invited to your party.

Baldwin would be intolerant of Reagan, due to Reagan's belief and understanding that compromise makes the government run smoothly.

one day, historians will look back and see how Obama and Reagan aren't that dissimilar.
 
315Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 12:53
Was reading a piece the other day, titled "Obama: Worst Socialist Ever."
 
316Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Thu, Dec 29, 2011, 13:38
Newt Gingrich explains in National Review, the Reagan path to recovery and booming economy.
Recall that, just like President Obama, President Reagan inherited a terrible economy when he took office. But Reagan enacted historic income tax rate cuts, regulatory reforms and spending controls. The recession officially ended in November 1982, and in the following two and a half years the unemployment rate dropped 3.6 percentage points, more than eight million Americans went to work at new jobs, and the longest period of economic growth in American history commenced.

Mr. Obama's policies have been just the opposite...

The president barnstorms the country advocating tax increases for investors, entrepreneurs and small businesses, teeing up the country for another crash in 2013 when the Bush-era income tax rates expire. Meanwhile, America's businesses continue to suffer from the highest business tax rate in the industrialized world, with no relief in sight.

This nightmare will not end until Reagan-era economic policies are restored: tax reform, a sound dollar and smarter regulations. If they are, within a year the American economy will take off on another historic boom.

First, we must reduce the federal business tax rate to 12.5%, eliminate the capital gains tax as a double tax on capital income, and eliminate the estate tax. We must allow immediate expensing (writing off the costs in one year) for investment in capital equipment so American workers can continue to be the most productive in the world, using the latest and most advanced technology.
Not quite the tax raising statist dance PD and other transparently anti-Reagan revisionists would have you believe it was.
 
317Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Dec 29, 2011, 13:53
Quick: Are tax rates lower now than under Reagan?

And any article on Reagan's economic policies which fail to even use the words "inflation" or "money supply" is intended to dupe people. Consider yourself duped.
 
318Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Dec 29, 2011, 16:10
I'll take Reagan era tax rates and finacial regulation and funding for enforcement in a heart beat.

You will be scratching your head when you get a big tax increase when implemented.
 
319Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Thu, Dec 29, 2011, 16:48
We are a twenty-five year record boom cycle removed from the high taxes of Tip O'neil which republicans have been making steady progress whittling down during Reagan's administration and down to this day.

The only people you could possibly be fooling with this 'Reagan was a big taxer' lie are people too young to remember the Reagan Eighties and fellow liberals who want to believe lies about Reagan so they can go on believing their own lies about the effects of taxation.
 
320DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Dec 29, 2011, 17:31
Generally speaking, Reagan lowered taxes while increasing spending, running up massive deficits in the process. Note that "running up massive deficits" is exactly the sort of thing that 'conservatives' like to yell at everyone else for doing, even though historically they have been much better at running up deficits than anyone else.

Though, I suppose, through the perfidious wonders of rose-colored glasses, Reagan will get full credit for lowering taxes, while the Democrats in Congress at the exact same time will get full blame for all that deficit spending. And you'll MEAN it, that's the most hilarious part.
 
321Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Dec 29, 2011, 17:38
Reagan would be considered a RINO on a number of issues, including his budgets.

By far the biggest thing Reagan did was work the money supply to bring down inflation. This was the biggest difference.

And Gingrich doesn't seem to even notice that inflation is down and has been down to near record levels--this takes out of Obama's quiver Reagan's biggest weapon.
 
322Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Thu, Dec 29, 2011, 18:07
Somehow I don't think that an economy where business can't or won't borrow even when interest is virtually zero, can really be turned into a campaign plus.

Maybe Obama can try and demonize these non-borrowing businesses as BINO's and shed the blame that way.
 
323Perm Dude
      ID: 4711562917
      Thu, Dec 29, 2011, 19:01
Nobody said anything about Obama's campaign. In fact, we need not to, to point out how full of holes Gingrich's "argument" is.

 
324Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Dec 30, 2011, 10:13
Reagan would be considered a RINO on a number of issues, including his budgets.

and the fact he completely understood the Art of the Deal, and the simple fact that to get things done, you sometimes need to compromise, and that compromise is just that - it's finding middle ground for the betterment at all.

Baldwin and many of today's conservatives would have you understand that compromise equals selling your soul, but i'm of the mindset that they believe that way because they already don't possess a soul.
 
325Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 30, 2011, 10:16
Reagan would be a footnote if the Dems acted against him as the GOP does against Obama.
 
326Boldwin
      ID: 58112185
      Fri, Dec 30, 2011, 10:16
If you actually read your Hebrew scriptures you will learn that we, are souls, not 'we have souls'.
 
327Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 30, 2011, 10:17
Sold yourself, then.
 
328Boldwin
      ID: 58112185
      Fri, Dec 30, 2011, 10:24
Reagan had one non-negotiable goal. Winning the cold war.

Today he would have the same non-negotiable goal that the Tea Party has. Preventing the USA from becoming a socialist basketcase like Greece.
 
329Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 30, 2011, 10:35
And when he woke up in the morning he'd get to work, calling Dems to sit down at the table.

I realize your own dreams including inserting your heroes into your own talking points (rather, conservative media's talking points) but those who knew and worked with Reagan made very clear he would have had nothing to do with the Tea Party mentality.

We don't actually have to guess on the point. Reagan's actions speak louder than your words.
 
330Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Dec 30, 2011, 16:26
50 million plus conservatives, none have a soul.
 
331Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 30, 2011, 16:34
Depends on your definition of "many" I suppose.

I tend to think that much of today's GOP are being led by a small but vocal minority.
 
332Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Dec 30, 2011, 23:31
If you actually read your Hebrew scriptures you will learn that we, are souls, not 'we have souls'.

and if you had a leg to stand on, you'd respond to the actual point of the post, instead of going off on yet another tangent.
 
333Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 04:18
Agreeing to compromise with statist big-government liberal demands is a sellout of who conservatuives are at their very core.

Hardcore liberal: "Wear these government handcuffs and leg irons."

Conservative: "I'm an individual with the right to live free. The government isn't supposed to be the master of the citizen, the citizen is supposed to be master of government."

'Reasonable' liberal: "Ok just put on the handcuffs for now."

'Reasonable' conservative: 'I was being reasonable the first time you asked and my reasonable position hasn't changed.'
 
334Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 04:41
BTW, thanks for the new leg irons, you liberals. I just love being forced to buckle up in the back seat now.

Get the @#$% out of my car.
 
335biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 08:55
I am agreement with you on seatbelt (and helmet) laws. I think you should be able to assess that risk yourself, as an adult.

And I am also agreement you should try to get out of your car more. ;)

Big government has forced everyone to drive, by taking away all other safe options.
 
336Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 11:00
BTW, thanks for the new leg irons, you liberals. I just love being forced to buckle up in the back seat now.

Just think, if you lived in my state you could make yourself miserable complaining about conservatives passing laws that fit you with new leg irons, since the Utah legislature is roughly 75% Republican.
Not only would you be forced to wear a seat belt in the back seat,

any child under 8 must be in a booster seat.

Right. Ever tried to get a kid over 4 to ride in a booster seat? I take 7 kids to school every morning, including a 6 year old. When I drop him and his two sisters off(8 and 11), I never see the kindergarden, 1st and 2nd graders in booster seats. Thanks, you conservatives, for making moronic laws intended to handcuff me and fit me with a new set of leg irons.
 
337sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 12:47
Gee, and here I tend to agree with helmet and seat belt laws. Why? Cause when the motorcyclist splits his skull open and spends the rest of his life on medicaid and SSDI, its the collective of his neighbors paying for that. Yet, they had no say in whether or not he wore his helmet.
 
338Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 13:28
I would support a law that didn't require seatbelts to be worn (for adults), but also didn't grant any medicaid or SSDI rights to someone involved in a crash (at fault or not).

You want personal freedom, there you go. Just don't expect there not to be consequences.

I would also support insurance companies that denied coverage to someone who didn't wear a seatbelt, or require higher rates for those who wanted the option.
 
339sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 17:15
The "Catch 22" there Frick, is the minor children of such an adult. W/O the financial aid, they are th eones paying the financial burden, in addition to the emotional burden. Further reasoning for why I support those laws to begin with. It is NEVER "just that person", who is impacted by their decisions.
 
340biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 17:22
Money is not a good reason to deny personal freedoms.

I can imagine any freedom that costs somebody somewhere money.
 
341sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 18:51
Whose "rights" take precedence? Those of the minor child expecting their parent to "be there", added to those of the co-workers expecting that person to be there and do their job so the others dont have to, in addition to those of the parents who expect their child to outlive them, added to etc etc etc; or those of the reckless adult believing their choices impact no one other than themselves?
 
342Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 21:25
It's not your job, Sarge.
 
343sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Dec 31, 2011, 21:45
That does not answer the question Boldwin. Not even, gonna give that one, a 'nice try' , because it wasnt.
 
344Boldwin
      ID: 58112185
      Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 10:34
Out of my car. Now.
 
345Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 10:42
Out of my car. Now.

so you're not in favor of standards for emissions, brakes, lights, etc?

(never mind the fact that you don't want the government in your car, but you do want them in your doctor's office and your marriage ceremonies)
 
346Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 11:16
Off our road. Now.
 
347Boldwin
      ID: 58112185
      Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 11:30
My seat belts have zero involvement with you and your roads, PD.
 
348Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 11:38
Driving on them does. Use your belts all you want. Go ahead and make motor noises and turn the wheel. Just stop thinking your actions have no effect on my wallet when you get onto the roads.
 
349biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 12:07
Simply driving has vastly negative effects on everyone, including those who don't drive.

Monetary, in terms of taxes to pay for and maintain the actual roads, not to mention the wars needed to keep the crude flowing cheaply (ignoring the millions killed and maimed in the wars).

Health-wise in terms of lung disease, heart disease, cancer, and obesity. This also has a massive impact on your "wallet" through massive health care expenditures.

Clicking your seatbelt, while smart, has a negligible impact on others compared to the act of turning the key in your ignition at all.

Are we going to legislate away cars? I can pretty much guarantee not. So measure your nanny-state legislation against the impact automobile use before supporting it due to the impact on your "wallet".
 
350Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 12:12
Legislating seat belts is a very, very tiny blowblack against the massive car entitlement we've built up over decades in this country.

I believe the stat is that we spent more on highways last year than we have during the entire history of AMTRAK.

This reminds me of Romney going around Farm Bill-dependent Iowa, telling people that Obama wants to create and maintain an "entitlement atmosphere."
 
351Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 13:31
My seat belt use has zero involvement on your wallet...

...until you socialize medicine and then suddenly you have unleashed a relentless ogre with an invitation to invade every private matter of life.

Which is why only madmen and anti-americans would support it.
 
352biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 13:49
Actually, it's very much involved in your wallet. Your insurance rates are developed using experience rating. Either socialized or pure laissez-faire, there will be a minor bump in everyone's rates when someone has an accident. The care has to be paid for in either case.
 
353Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 02, 2012, 13:55
Absolutely. Your risk is being covered by the rest of us.
 
354Boldwin
      ID: 5103310
      Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 12:11
Who gave you permission to cover my risk?
 
355Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 12:20
You really don't understand things regarding risk, do you? Or social costs?

You have insurance, yes? Ask your agent about it.
 
356Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 12:35
Every time you turn the ignition I cover your risk, and subsidize your infrastructure. I am awaiting a thank you.
 
357sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 22:17
Who gave you permission to cover my risk?

The greater question: What gives you the right to unilaterally INCREASE the risk we have to assume, on your behalf?
 
358biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 07:19
From a man who rides a lobotomizer, er..., motorcycle.

Which, by the way, is fine with me. Just sayin'. Hard to increase your risk much higher than that, helmet or no helmet.
 
359Boldwin
      ID: 5103310
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 11:46
'Organ donor says what?'
 
360sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 13:34
Proper safety gear on a bike, combined with proper levels of "situational awareness", yields relative safety. I dont ride w/o helmet, crash jacket, boots, crash gloves.... IOW, I do all I can, to minimize the risk.
 
361Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 15:15
Simply getting on a motorcycle multiplies your risk of death between 20-40 times that of someone getting in a car. And getting into a car is one of the most dangerous things an ordinary American can do.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I fully support your right to kill yourself, just don't lecture others about safety causing your insurance rates to bump insignificantly when they make significantly less risky choices than you.
 
362Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 17:58
Why should I allow you to ride a motorcycle?

When your own argument says everyone's costs end up being shared thru insurance rates?

Yes I am being facetious.
 
363sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 18:12
My argument is not based on the freedom to make choices, but to make those choices and THEN, to mitigate the risk as much as possible. If it were the 1st, then I'd logically argue to ban automobiles as they are involved in a high nr of serious injuries and fatalities, annually.

IN my personal 40 or so years of riding, I have had 2 incidents involving personal injury. One, was a low speed dumping while executing a u-turn on a crowned roadway, and my passenger leaned opposite the turn vs into the turn. True, I should have had her dismount, executed the turn, then remount. The other, was when I was about 14 or 15 years old, and is why I know refuse to ride without safety gear. I got lucky that time no question, and wont tempt fate that way again.

I've been hurt more seriously and FAR more often, in car accidents than in motorcycle accidents. Admittedly, I take a different and more concious approach to defensive driving on a bike than I do in a car. Most likely, more than a little contributory to the historic facts.

Again, I am not arguing that any one choice is more or less wrong than another. I am arguing, that once we make a choice, we are 'morally obligated', to mitigate the risks. Whether your choice is to walk, ride a bike, ride a motorcycle, ride a horse or a car...those are YOUR choices. But to claim that a helmet law, or a seatbelt law, or a jay-walking law; infringes on your personal freedoms, is ludicrous.
 
364Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 19:54
But to claim that a helmet law, or a seatbelt law, or a jay-walking law; infringes on your personal freedoms, is ludicrous.

They might as well mandate handcuffs. How much more of an infringement could they come up with?
 
365Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 19:55
No one said that riding a bike infringes on rights, sarge. But it does increase risk, which is carried by everyone else.
 
366sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 21:02
Nor PD, did I say that anyone said any such thing. I said, I made a choice to ride, and then I do everything possible to mitigate the risks associated WITH riding. I equate that, to wearing seatbelts. You choose to drive a car, now mitigate the risks associated WITH driving a car.

No B, handdirons, shackles, are not the equivalent to seat belts. Not even a good try at a weak as hell strawman.
 
367Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 21:11
But to claim that a helmet law, or a seatbelt law, or a jay-walking law; infringes on your personal freedoms, is ludicrous.

This is your quote, yes?

Who were you responding to with these words of yours, in which you said someone claimed some kind of rights infringement was occuring?
 
368scoobies
      ID: 4035420
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 21:35
I assumed that Sarge was responding to Boldwin's comments.
 
369sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 21:38
Boldwin, in 354, 359
Bili, in 358, 361

for examples. I apparently, am not making myself clear, though I admittedly do not know how to be more clear.

I am not saying that denying the initial choice, falls short of infringement. It is infringement, to dent one the choice to drive a car, or ride a bike, or...

What I AM saying, is that once we make our choice, we have a moral obligation (duty?), to mitigate the risks associated with that choice.

You want to sky dive? No problem. Get trained first, wear proper gear and have a reserve chute for back up purposes.

You want to ride a bicycle? No problem. Wear a helmet, ride in approved bike lanes and obey traffic laws.

You want to drive a car? No biggy. Get instruction, wear a seat belt and obey traffic laws.

You want to ride a motorcycle? Go for it. Attend an approved safety course or two or three, get and wear proper gear, obet traffic laws.

You want to go golfing? Great. Get off the course if lightening is apparent.

I am not denying anyone the initial choice, nor am I saying anyone has acted to deny me that initial choice. I simply believe, that once we make ANY choice, we owe it to our families, friends, co-workers, etc etc...to reduce the risks associated with those choices. Note I said reduc e the risks, not eliminate them. They can not, be utterly eliminated, and still allow for participating in the initial choice.
 
370Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 22:10
The point here sarge, is what I stated way up yonder. If you start taking away freedoms based on negligible monetary impacts, you gotta start worrying that the ones you care about might be gone next.

I so happen to occasionally enjoy the experience of driving without seatbelt or helmet. That pales in risk and monetary impact compared to you riding a motorcycle.

They made my joy illegal. Maybe yours is next, if the legislature chooses to use your monetary criteria.
 
371weykool
      ID: 1611471811
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 22:37
Good points Bili.
Sarge is a little confused here.
Once you allow the government to mitigate risk on the bogus argument that we "owe it to our families, friends, co-workers, etc etc" then there is nothing preventing them from passing laws banning anything they deem to be "risky".
Back to the drawing board Sarge.
 
372Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 23:12
I love the argument that our government would better serve us if they'd just let uninsured sick and injured people die out in the street.
 
373Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 23:13
Er..

if they'd just let more uninsured sick and injured people die out in the street
 
374Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jan 04, 2012, 23:20
Once you allow the government to mitigate risk

That's really not the full argument. Contra Boldwin, the risk is shared by others through all sorts of mechanism, including private insurance.
 
375sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 00:06
No WK, sarge is not confused here. No one, has made the option of riding a bike illegal. Riding without a helmet however, is irresponsible. No one, has made welding illegal. Welding w/o face/eye protection, is irresponsible. No one, has made riding a motorcycle, illegal. Riding without protective gear, is irresponsible.

If people will not exercise reasonable precautions on their own, then legislate it. I have no issue with that. PROVIDED, we are not banning the activity in its entirety. Requiring helmets, is not tantamount to prohibiting riding. Reqquiring, via legislation, the inclusion of a reserve chute in a sky dive set up, is not tantamount to prohibiting sky diving.

Bili? What possible enjoyment (other than that derived from being a rebel), can you obtain by driving a car without using your seatbelt? Its not high-speed driving, since a restraint helps to keep you positioned behind the wheel contra to centrifigal force and enables you to maintrain conctrol, thereby enabling you to drive even faster. So pray tell, what possible enjoyment do you get from driving without a seat belt?
 
376Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 02:26
Though driving through the rolling back roads of eastern oregon in just shorts in 95 degree heat on the 4th of july in Nissan convertible is much more fun without an itchy nylon safety restraint chaffing my nIpples is much more pleasant, I was largely just using it as a handy example.

Feel free to substitute just about any freedom we enjoy today - skateboarding, chainsaws, Bouldering... Whatever.

Anything could affect your insurance rates. It's a super crappy reason to impinge on our freedoms, and your motorcycle would be next.
 
377Boldwin
      ID: 5501454
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 05:18
Another crappy reason to take away our freedom is "Well you weren't enjoying it much anyway."

what possible enjoyment do you get from driving without a seat belt?

That's none of your damn business either.

 
378sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 06:54
While you are applying a far stretch of the slippery-slope theory, I am dealing with current realities.

Motorcycling, is legal. Driving a car, is legal. Sky diving, is legal. ALL I am saying, is that when you engage in a legal activity, with accompanying risks...there are social costs born if those risks are realized. With that truth in mind, we have a social obligation to mitigate those risks.

How you can deny that, in truth escapes me entirely. For in the denying, you are in fact arguing that if you want to drive your car at 145 mph on city streets, then you should be able to. If you want to get good and drunk and THEN drive across town, you should be able to. After all, I have no doubt that someone would find that to be "fun".
 
379biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 09:45
No, there are reasons for not doing those things. You can hurt others.

I'm all for snagging someone's license for failing to merge to a pedestrian in a crosswalk. Because it hurts and kills people other than yourself.
 
380sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 09:48
And your kids, spouse, parents, siblings? They arent "people other than yourself" who get hurt by ones irresponsibility?
 
381biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 09:51
In other words, there are tons of good reasons to make and enforce laws and regulations. Impinging on other peoples right by say, killing them, is an extremely good reason.
 
382biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 09:52
Absolutely. And that's why I where a seatbelt and a helmet, not because there is a law that says I need to.
 
383Boldwin
      ID: 5501454
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 10:07
And I've spent years sitting in back seats whenever possible, even when there were only two people in the car, just to avoid the hated seatbelts.
 
384walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 10:28
So, if I understand some of the anti-law logic here, we should do away with some/all of the laws discussed in posts like 334+ because once the gov't starts enacting such laws, they may over-step and pass unnecessary laws? (ie, weykool's #371). I fear the opposite much more: That if we do not have safety laws, individuals, who I think (make that know) are far more selfish and irresponsible, will over-step and engage in far riskier behavior, endangering the lives of others.

This is not to say the gov't does not do their own versions of risky behavior (eg, war), but when it comes to public safety, I'd like to see more of it. In the land of the free and the home of the handgun, we don't do such a good job of self-regulation when it comes to public safety behavior, IMHO.
 
385Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 11:05
We can only enforce so many laws. Laws that are not enforced or enforced only sporadically are sometimes worse than no laws at all. It teaches people that laws are okay to break.

For example, around 80% of accidents involving pedestrians are caused by a driver failing to yield. Yet, at least in Seattle, tickets for failing to yield and jaywalking are distributed 20%/80%.

I'd much rather use our expensive and understaffed police to stop people brandishing their car as a deadly weapon than ticketing them for increasing the risk solely to themselves.

 
386walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 11:14
I can buy that, bili. I really think it's about common sense. I don't want to take over anyone's private lives (other than taking away their pistols), but also believe there is walkable (get it, "walk"-able?, hahaha) line to having the right amount of rules in place for public safety.
 
387Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 11:23
Agreed, walk. I am saying that line should be drawn with "risk to others" on one side and "risk solely to self" on the other. Then we can focus our limited enforcement dollars on one side and let Darwin sort out the other side.
 
388walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 11:24
Right! The darwin awards! It's too easy discussing things with you and PD.
 
389Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 11:35
Heh. Have you got me advocating Public Safety Eugenics somehow !?!
 
390Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 14:19
Man, this is a great line:

The hallmark of truly vintage Gingrichian toxicity is the fomenting of hatred toward whole groups of people whom Gingrich has no personal reason to dislike. It isn't that he wishes these people ill; it's just that he would profit politically if they were hated more deeply by more people.

from Bob Wright's profile in The Atlantic [HT: AS]
 
391sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 19:05
from 387:...I am saying that line should be drawn with "risk to others" on one side and "risk solely to self" on the other.

I can and will agree wholeheartedly with that. Now, with all the people lurking and participating here, representing a WIDE cross section of the American sociologic spectrum...is there ANYONE here, who can name ONE PERSON; whose decisions and choices affect SOLELY, that one individual?
 
392Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 19:21
I didn't say affect others. I said put others at risk. Very different.
 
393Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 20:32
Sarge votes for guys who live to raise the national debt by a third every term...

...yet he sweats bullets watches his wallet as it drains from my sitting in the back seat of a car unbuckled.
 
394sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 22:47
Wrong again B..I said you are acting irresponsibly, and then reaping the benefit of everyone else paying for your irresponsibility. Amazing, that as a conservative, you fail to see the hypocrisy in your posture.
 
396sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Fri, Jan 06, 2012, 11:55
Newly recovered court files cast doubt on Gingrich version of first divorce


Leonard H. "Kip" Carter, a former close Gingrich friend, backed the contention that it was Newt Gingrich who wanted the divorce.

"He (Gingrich) said, 'You know and I know that she's not young enough or pretty enough to be the wife of a president,' " Carter, who now lives in South Carolina, told CNN recently, relating the conversation he had with Gingrich the day Gingrich revealed he was filing for divorce. Carter served as treasurer of Gingrich's first congressional campaigns.



So GOP members, you still think this clown has ANY CLUE AT ALL, WTF "family values" are?

**self edited to correct

 
397Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 13:03
Newt PAC attacks Romney as a free-market capitalist.

I don't know that I've ever seen so spectacular and desperate a self-destruction in a fading presidential candidate.

And I imagine B7 is furious with the media for reporting that some Republicans are angry with the latest direction of Newt's campaign.
 
398Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 14:58
Just another in a long line of position reversals from Newt. The guy has no core - he will say whatever he has to say and reverse course 2 weeks later if it suits his agenda, which is acquiring more power for Newt.
 
399Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 17:56
Why would I be furious? Why am I being dragged into this thread?
 
400Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 05:47
I still have a sneaking suspicion Newt wins the nomination. About 50% of republicans would rather stick needles in their eye than vote Romney and another 20% would rather not vote Romney if they don't have to...

...but that Romney rescued poorly run companies from going bankrupt and that he speaks french as well as Newt does are not the reasons for that.
in a new ad, with a voice-over that says at one point, “just like John Kerry, he speaks French, too.”
I know he is forbidden by law from planning the ad campaigns of superpacs but lets make sure they are smarter than this Newt.
 
401Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 10:50
rescued poorly run companies

Er, that's not exactly what Bain was about. Venture companies in the 80's were about swooping in to buy companies, selling off assets or taking out loans to cover their initial fees, and then dumping the carcass.

Go ahead though and hope for the rapidly descending Gingrich to save you. I'm sure his ability to be a dick to about anyone will serve him well...
 
402Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 11:23
and then dumping the carcass

Except that's not what happened in Bain's case. Yes they structured things to make a handsome profit but they left sound companies when they were finished.

I was all set to believe the worst when I looked into this but looking deeply into cases like Dade Behring Inc., a Deerfield, Illinois-based medical-testing company which did have deep layoffs but emerged stronger than ever. And that was a company that would have gone belly up if not for Bain's rescue and EVERYONE would have been fired.

Yes "22 percent of the companies either filed for bankruptcy or shut down by the eighth year after the Bain investment" but that is not unacceptable considering they were buying firsale companies and no guarantee existed anybody could make them solid.
 
403Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 11:32
they left sound companies

This is not an argument you are going to win. Sure, in some cases companies were able to survive Bain's smash-and-grab. Others (American Pad & Paper, Details, Stage Stores, etc) were not so lucky after being Bained.

About the only thing we do know: Bain made incredible amounts of money off companies that you yourself point out were "fire sale" companies. They were very, very good at carving up companies and getting them to take on more debt in order to cover Bain's original investment, then getting out before the real cost of the debt kicked in. Bain, like all venture companies at that time, were scavengers.
 
404sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 13:46
Waiting for the anti-Romney ad using a clip from WALLSTREET and then insert Romney for Douglas as he says to the assembly..."Greed....is good...", with a BAIN banner hanging over the stage.
 
405Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 16:22
PD

Ok, I can see you are not prepared to look at the actual MO of Bain. I should have expected nothing better from you these days.
 
406Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 16:31
But why don't you just read the wiki just for the hell of it?

Here and here.

You don't actually have to admit a word of it is true here on the board, but at least you'll plant a seed of truth in the back of your mind.

Learn what the 'Bain Way' was.

Pause to reflect on the pillaged carcasses of Staples, Accuride, Brookstone, Domino's Pizza, Sealy Corporation, Sports Authority, and Artisan Entertainment.
 
407Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 12:16
The fact that they had some successes doesn't take away from how they made their money.

Their MO was clear: Get in quickly, get back their money as fast as possible, then sell assets or reduce workforce quickly before selling what was left.

By and large, Gecko-like companies like Bain made things worse, not better. Your anecdotal examples aside.
 
408Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 21:45
You have absolutely no evidence to back that up. Those are just your prejudiced assumptions.
 
409sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 00:01
link

The Wall Street Journal's Mark Maremont reports Romney's company certainly made a lot of money, even though a lot of its investments failed. He reports that of the 77 businesses Bain invested in from 1984 to 1999, 22 percent filed for bankruptcy reorganization or folded. Bain lost all its money in another 8 percent. And only 10 deals accounted for 70 percent of the money Bain made -- but of those 10 businesses, four eventually wound up in bankruptcy court.

So, of 77 deals....

TEN (approx 13% of the total nr), accounted for 70% of the BAIN profits. Of those 10, 40% (4) went bust. Inferring, that nearly 30% of BAINS total profits, came from 4 companies that went bust.

Yep...I think thats proof.
 
410Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 00:24
Nope, 22% qualifies as the exception, not the rule. Especially when that 22% were chosen because they were failed companies.
 
411Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 00:27
Correction, those 22% were from a group entirely failed. It would have been easy to loot and bankrupt them all if that was really the Bain MO.
 
412Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 00:35
Pretty much every single Democrat in the country hopes that Romney runs on his record at Bain. You thought he had no coattails before--wait until he runs as a venture-capitalist-as-savior. The author of Romneycare who runs away from it, now the jobs cremator who says he can make them this time.

Congrats--you found the GOP's version of John Kerry. Without the military experience.
 
413Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 06:10
There was never any doubt liberals would run on that.

The only question we are dealing with is why Newt's superpac did and would it have any effect on republicans and swing voters. If they are republicans or swing voters they probably aren't anti-capitalists.

It is a fabulous way for Obama to distract from his own craven association with the Tim Geitners of the world. If OWS wasn't astroturf there is hardly any way he could have pretended to blend in with that crowd.

I picture Obama a cabinet meeting where someone cracks 'damn 1%' and the whole room of insider 1% all get the collective giggles.
 
414sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 11:19
That would be at the Republican National Convention B. Just thought I'd clarify that for you.
 
415Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 12:44
Gingrich floats the idea of firing liberal federal employees.

Apparently, replacing federal employees who otherwise are doing a good job with people who believe their jobs should be eliminated is a way to efficiently deliver government services. Who knew? I must have missed that history lesson from Professor Gingrich...
 
416sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 13:11
“I think an intelligent conservative wants the right federal employees delivering the right services in a highly efficient way and then wants to get rid of those folks who are in fact wasteful, or those folks who are ideologically so far to the left, or those people who want to frankly dictate to the rest of us,” Gingrich said in response to a question from a federal employee at the forum. {emphasis mine}

Under Newts plan, this would end the GOP. Yes?
 
417Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 16:17
BTW, Obama wants to run the same play in reverse.

The reason he wants to end 6 agencies and combine them into one is because in doing so he can do an end run around the Shakman Decrees, fire all the republicans and pack the permanent government with communists who can never be fired.

I hope you didn't really believe he proposed that out of his desire to make government smaller, more efficient and cheaper, lol.

Fortunately presidents don't get to do that so all he gets out of that is the ability to deflect hostility to inefficient big government and the democrat stink attached to it.
 
418sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 16:28
you have truly become, a sad caricature of a Conservative.
 
419Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 16:36
He's against a smaller government because he thinks the Democratic president will violate the law and hire only Democrats, sarge. What's not conservative about that?

Never mind that federal employees are, by and large, Democrats anyway. Apparently there is no conspiracy theory about Obama too small to not air here.
 
420Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 17:37
I'd love to see president Newt pull that proposal out of the closet and try it the other way around and hear democrats scream bloody murder.
 
421DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Jan 15, 2012, 18:16
Re: 418 -- at no point has Boldwin ever been a conservative.
 
424Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 08:29
Or Ronald Reagan either, to hear the liberals tell it. Why would anyone make you their arbiter of conservative bona fides, D?
 
425Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 08:33
I'll start it out today. The liberal pack will be in full howl soon about ABC's interview with Gingrich's ex-wife Marianne.

Who herself was the marriage wrecker giving him the BJ allegedly while his first wife was on her cancer death bed.

So she deserves to get the artfully timed to destroy, full empathy 'how did it feel' interview now about when own marriage broke on the rocks.

Comes around/goes around

*roll*
 
426bibA
      ID: 4057177
      Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 09:18
If what you say is true, that she gets what she deserves because what comes around/goes around, then I would assume that Newt is twice as deserving.
 
427Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 09:25
Of course.
 
428Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 12:43
Grab yer popcorn.

If two people ever deserved each other, it was those two.
 
429Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 13:14
Marianne expressed her “shock” at Newt Gingrich’s behavior.

Can a marriage wrecker honestly hold this mental state?

I guess if Newt expects us to forget about ten year old personal matters...she's proof it can be done if you believe her.
 
430Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 13:36
Newt, of course, is himself a serial marriage wrecker. Make sure to hold him to the same standard.
 
431Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 13:49
Link?
 
432Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 13:56
Heh, ah, his own.

What I wrote about neocon Christopher Hitchens applies to all neocons...which I guess Newt kinda sorta is:
But then that's the thing about neocons. They are determined and delighted to see you and society bound by the civilizing effect of faith while keeping themselves unencumbered by goodness. - #539 Not Flat
 
433Tree
      ID: 11034119
      Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 11:18
Watching the guy who blasted Clinton's marital woes be pissed off that people are asking about his own is great theater.
 
435Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 19:09
Here Ann Coulter makes the conservative case against Newt. The one conservatives might respond to, not the lib talking points.

I'm kinda thinking Newt just might ride the republican outrage against the media all the way to the nomination, if he doesn't run out of money. But does he carry thru on that tough guy act when he gets in power? He knows how congress works, but is he effective in translating that knowledge into passed legislation?

Conservatives are hearing what they are desperate to hear from Newt, but is there substance behind the promise?

Romney also has a very favorable schedule of primary states in the short term.
 
436Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 19:38
Just heard that all the networks called SC for Newt. Haven't seen any returns yet, but this is all very interesting.

Santorum has no organization past SC, and Newt placed all his money on his SC bet. He's likely to pick it up, but it'll be very interesting to see Romney's reaction to a second or third place showing in SC.
 
437Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 19:45
My own take on SC is that it is a bit of an outlier--if the Tea Party had its own color it would be the deepest of that color. Both Newt and Romney went "angry Tea Partier" there but Romney's didn't seem authentic. Newt, on the other hand, connected with the frustration of the white southerner. His handling of his past marriages were classic "blame the messenger" retorts, and Romney's weak "release the ethics report" response was laughable--the report has been available online for years.
 
438Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 19:46
Current returns (updating by the minute) have Romney ahead 4,760 - 4,060 with 0.9% reporting.

Seems silly to call it on exit polling but it must have been pretty overwhelming to make the call the moment the polls closed.
 
439Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 19:47
And just like that Newt took the lead with 2.3% in.
 
440sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 19:48
Romney is a NE "fat cat". Been a while since that has played well in the deep south. (And dont fool yourself, SC is DEEP south) Newt is from GA (nest door) so like Romney in NH, I expected Newt to do well there in SC. I dont see him doing as well in FL, where I think Romney will play better. Paul, is still the wild card in all this.
 
441Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 20:37
Tell me the network made King call it for Newt.
 
442sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 20:50
Arent you the one claiming the MSM is pulling strings? Seems you should then be th eone telling us....
 
443Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 21:04
Next he's going to claim that Gingrich is a Washington outsider.

 
444Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 22:01
Romney likely does well in FLA because big states favor the guy with more advertising money.
 
445sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 22:07
Romeny does well in FL, cause FL isnt your typical deep southern state. MUCH more money there.
 
446Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 22:16
Jeb Bush will endorse Romney--perhaps tonight. Establishment GOP is getting a little rattled, and want to stop the blood.

Romney should also do well, as sarge points out, as Florida is not as wacko as SC.
 
447sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 22:34
wacko...THATS the word I was looking for! :)
 
448sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 22:42
So, with Mr Adulterer carryng the evangelical hefty SC; what does this mean for the GOPs claim of "family values"?
 
449Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 01:26
It means they'd rather have an imperfect conservative who effectively takes the battle to the hated MSM than an impeccable moderate or even a milktoast conservative.

Newt can still lose them if he goes around denying the truth of it or especially if he should ever commit perjury about it.

I don't know exactly what he was denying in the debate but he better be very careful how he words things. Don't deny what you've already asked forgiveness for.
 
450sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 01:29
It means family values mean diddly when it comes right down to it. Just another sound bite, devoid of importance or meaning.
 
451Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 01:49
All that talk about family values, means 'don't destroy the countries family values by attacking them with your policies'.

The party with the 'unless you are a saint you need not apply' policy will be waiting a long time for someone with the charisma to win at that level.

We already know you have mental problems. You think you should be president.



Intrade
 
452Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 02:28
The Tea Partiers stand ready to forgive their own if they ask for it. Or if they don't ask for it, but attack the "MSM" for bringing it up.

I think Boldwin is entirely right about the fine line Gingrich has to walk--with one caveat: Since it is very important for the conservative media to toe the line and never ask questions which might embarrass their candidates, who, exactly, would ask the questions of Gingrich if he does, in fact, go over the line?

Party cohesion has been far more important to the GOP than just about anything else. You ever think Hannity (for instance) will ask Newt "Hey, why are now you saying you never did anything that you previously asked us to forgive you for?"

I don't either.
 
453Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 02:44
This should prolly be in the biased media thread, but notice the MSM isn't calling him the Comeback Kid. The guy who had his whole campaign team up and walk out on him earlier.

Well cause he's not their liberal of course.
 
454Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 02:47
It will also be interesting to see if the MSM changes their MO and drops the 'Mr. Invincible' treatment of Romney.

I'm guessing no, or only for a day or two.
 
455sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 03:16
I'm guessing you dont pay much attention to anything being said by someone who doesnt parrot your POV.

Newt doing well in SC; was predictable. That the MSM didnt call it, is to their shame. It does not mean, Newt has suddenly become a hugely more viable candidate. 1 state win, does not a primary nomination secure. Besides, as has been said numerous times, the left would HOPE someone like Newt wins the nomination.
 
456Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 04:53
Yeah, they wouldn't want to run against the current posterboy for the one percent. They aren't ready for anything like that. Mitt will be like a bolt from the blue.

Sure.
 
457Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 10:23
Newt winning by that landslide was not predictable before Saturday morning. It's incredible how fiercely anti-media the primary voters there turned out to be. Especially since King didn't do anything wrong except fail to be prepared for the inevitable attack on the media that everyone knew was coming, as Newt tosses one of those bombs at the media as often as he says "three hour Lincoln-Douglas style debate... teleprompter."

So while it's a bit of a headscratcher that Newt gets himself back into this thing by throwing a temper tantrum over the media doing exactly what the media is supposed to do, I'll take it. Makes the race more interesting from the spectator standpoint and helps Obama however it shakes out. If Newt gets nominated, the Obama victory is sealed. If not, the longer Newt hangs on, the more he damages the eventual nominee.
 
458sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 10:52
I agree the extent of Newts win wasnt foreseeable, but that he would win SC vs a New Englander, shouldnt shock anyone. (If Newts campaign can hang on; AL and MS could do likewise and of course GA most likely would.)

I also agree, the longer Newt hangs on, the mre divisive the Rep Primary is and the better that is for Pres Obama.
 
459Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 11:55
It's incredible how fiercely anti-media the primary voters the conservatives are. turned out to be.

Dump on them like they were a police car for five decades and that will tend to happen.
 
460Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 12:33
Yes I know the right is anti-media. What impresses me is how rabidly so the SC primary voters are. Newt's been going regularly to the bash-the-media routine since before the primary season started. Didn't serve him nearly so well in the previous two contests.
 
461Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 13:49
It's incredible how fiercely anti-media the primary voters the conservatives are. turned out to be.

Dump on them like they were a police car for five decades and that will tend to happen.


the fact that the biggest issue, apparently, to Conservatives, is the media, is appalling, but not surprising.

the economy, world peace, the job market, the serial infidelity of their "family values" candidate, and a litany of social issues don't seem to matter.

being a pissy little brat to the media, does. for shame, for shame.
 
462Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 14:32
The beauty of it is, all the power elite money in the world can't enable Romney to follow down that path.

If there is a political operative slick enuff to devise a campaign that successfully decouples Romney from his own sycophant MSM I will watch in amazement and disbelief.
 
463sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 14:44
Proving that truth is stranger than fiction:

Moderate SC Primary voters? Romney won them.

What is needed by ANY GOP candidate to fetch the WH? Moderate voters.

Who will the GOP fight tooth and nail? A candidate appealing AT ALL, to moderate voters.
 
464Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 15:16
And how Romney would unleash the passion of the squish.

*contented sigh*
 
465Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 15:42
a political operative slick enuff to devise a campaign that successfully decouples Romney from his own sycophant MSM

With the charity of accepting that assessment for the sake of argument, that operative's name is Jim Messina.
 
466Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 16:37
Mark it: The high point for the Tea Party: South Carolina GOP primary.

Where they prevailed over the "media" and the "elites."

No matter that November will lead to the Democrats taking back the House, and a stomping win by Obama--the legend of the day they prevailed over the forces of evil will be nurtured and told to children over and over...
 
467sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 17:05
No matter that November will lead to the Democrats taking back the House, and a stomping win by Obama--

Pretty solidly right on the mark, IMHO.
 
468Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 17:53
PD#466

Unfortunately Newt would have to keep it alive thru an unfavorable schedule:

FLA - Romney's big money to cover a big state

Maine - the week after

several week gap with no primaries followed my Michigan, his father's governorship state. Organizational advantage supreme.

A week later super-Tuesday with Massachusetts and Georgia
 
469Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 18:26
Maybe--Newt is already creeping up in FLA. And he'll start getting some more money, of course. But I just don't think his message plays well in many other states.

I think Ron Paul's message, however, is the opposite--he will do better in non-Southern states and he's not going to go away. He's the libertarian version of Huckabee this time around.
 
470Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 18:40
Paul Begala's Florida preview seems dead on, IMO, despite his progressive cred.
 
471sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 18:48
money quote:

But Romney has an ace in the hole. The one person who has consistently derailed Newt Gingrich's political career is Newt Gingrich.

 
472Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 18:49
Re: 468

Where the hell did you get your primary schedule?

Maine and Nevada are on the same day. And the candidates won't likely campaign much in Maine, if at all. The logistics of criss-crossing the state don't make much sense, Nevada is the bigger state and they've all laid plenty of groundwork in NH already, anyway.

Then is CO, MN and MO - just three days after Maine and Nevada.

Then comes your several-week gap before MI and AZ, both on 2/28.

Then Super Tuesday on 3/6.
 
473Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 19:08
Nevada is Romney's - huge Mormon Republican machine there.

Actually, Gingrich will likely do poorly all over the West, with California being the big prize.
California Republicans are business-minded, anti-beltway, anti-Gingrich.

Texas is Gingrich's best chance for a big delegate count, but if you've got Ron Paul and possibly still Santorum, that count could be seriously diluted.

No matter who gets the nomination, Romney or Gingrich, the fact that they're committed to making each other look like demons can only be a huge plus for Obama.
 
474Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 19:22
Good point on Nevada. I knew I was missing one Mitt had in the bag.

They aren't trying to make each other look like demons exactly. They are trying to make each other look like liberals.

Or is that just splitting hairs?
 
475Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 19:32
...all the talk about Romney having a hugely superior ground organization turned out not to be true. "They did not do the retail politics that a Santorum and a Gingrich have done over time," said Kevin Thomas, chairman of the Fairfield County Republican Party. (Thomas was neutral in the race.) "I think Newt's people, they had more on-the-ground staff, and they worked." There were a lot of them, too; after Gingrich's strong showing in the debates, said Susan Meyers, Gingrich's media coordinator for the Southeast, "We have so many volunteers, our phones are melting right now." - Washington Examiner
 
476Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 19:32
Not for the GOP.

I do recall the very same argument being made against Clinton & Obama in the Dem primary last time around. Really didn't make a different, IMO. Elections are about choices, and the GOP put up McCain & Palin as their part--the Dem primary battle didn't matter much, in the end.
 
477Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 19:51
Accidental placement?

 
478Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 19:57
475 & 476: Clearly it made a differene in Virginia.
 
479Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 19:58
Obama/Clinton didn't rise to the level of animosity we've seen between Romney/Gingrich in my recollection, although the argument was raised that they bloodied each other.

And it goes beyond just Gingrich and Romney slamming each other.

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie slammed Newt Gingrich as ill-suited to be president and defended Mitt Romney after his ally's second-place finish in the South Carolina primary.

In a preview of attacks that are likely to come this week from Romney allies, the popular Republican governor denounced Gingrich as having a "lousy record" and noted he was "run out of the speakership" and has "embarrassed the party over time."

"This is a guy who has never run anything," Christie said Sunday on NBC's Meet the Press, a day after Gingrich soundly defeated Romney in the South Carolina primary.

"I don't think on-the-job training should be the presidency of the United States," Christie said. "I don't believe his record stacks up to Gov. Romney's record."


link
 
480Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 20:27
I actually listened to Dick Morris after the debate and before the vote and I was just incredulous at his take on the debate, but I put a lot of stock in his judgement so I kept an open mind.
Yet as incredible as it may seem, all day Friday we were treated to multiple reviews from members of the conservative media on how Rick Santorum "won" the Thursday night debate in Charleston and that how this would help him in South Carolina. Dick Morris flatly proclaimed that Santorum did so well he might sweep in and take second from Newt Gingrich. Morris also predicted this would mean a S.C. win and nomination for Mitt Romney.

The math is clear. While negative ads can be effective if run in huge numbers -- as in Iowa -- what the voters are craving in the debates and on the stump is someone who can look liberals squarely in the eye and tell them why we are right and they are wrong. The American conservative base has had to put up with being called stupid, racist, greedy and unfair for decades by not only the Democrats but the vast majority of the media. The pent up frustration of these decades is magnified by the fact that George H. W. Bush, Bob Dole, George W. Bush and John McCain would not or perhaps could not confront this.

In fact, rare is the Republican candidate at any level who refuses to put up with this and fights back. When they do, they become sensations. Even Chris Christie and Donald Trump -- neither one a real conservative -- earned the love of the Republican base by simply deigning to fight back. Marco Rubio and Allen West are far more popular and well known than they have any right to be simply because they refuse to accept the argument on liberals' terms. They fight. They elicit the roar.

It wasn't the few thousand who rose to give Newt his standing ovations per se, it's that there were probably hundreds of thousands cheering at their television sets across the nation as well. That something like 60% of all likely voters in South Carolina did watch those debates was merely confirmation of just how important the crowd reaction should be assumed.

Yet the elites ignored the roar. After all, the roar came from the unwashed. It came from the fans of cockfights. It came from tea party folks and other such rabble. Inside the sterile cable studios and on their laptops, the pundits scored their debate and their election prospects without the roar. They have their little formulas about who has to raise doubts here and who has to score points there.

What they don't understand is what the roar means.

The roar is passion. The roar is intensity. The roar is pent up frustration. The roar, put another way, is the national mood of conservatives. It is a roar that will demand a fighter. It will demand that those who want our votes must not cower in the face of the liberal template. If fact, it is a roar that demands that we do not accept any liberal templates.

That's why Newt has gotten all the roars, and why he has vaulted into serious contention only days after being written off. Anyone else who wants the roar should heed the lesson. The roar comes only at the expense of liberals and liberalism. You won't get the roar attacking others on the stage. Tell your consultants to take a hike if they tell you otherwise.

That roar was an easy predictor of what would happen Saturday night in South Carolina. I knew it and everyone I know knew it late Thursday night. And it was. Seems like no one inside the beltway got it. Until Saturday evening. - American Thinker
But thanks for the advice that they need a moderate who's only challenge to liberals is, 'let's slow down this socialist march a little. Give us time to get used to it.

Hell no.

Keep your advice.
 
481Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 21:11
thanks for the advice that they need a moderate

Why you think trends among conservative primary voters is reflective in any way of how a general election would go is beyond me. Helps you sleep better I suppose.

Might as well keep posting about the surefire January, 2013 Bachman inauguration.
 
482Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 21:36
Heh. #480 is called "projecting outward from an outlier."

 
483Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 22:21
Conservatives who want a fighter are not outliers.

I'm not predicting the nominee but I do know the Romney base is smaller than the 'anyone-but-Romney' base.

We'll see if the MSM tactic of shooting the lead conservative du jour keeps working. I don't see how that works on the last conservative standing.
 
484sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 22:22
481 is spot on. What some on the right have failed to grasp AT ALL, is that the Rep victories of 2010 have shoswn the nation, that the GOP is in fact the party of 'no' and not a party of ideas. On multiple vie3ws, Pres Obama ultimately endorsed the Rep outlook, only to find that Republicans now opposed it because he favored it.

2012, will see the Dems retake the House, potentially hit 60 seats (with the indep) in the Senate, and hold the WH.

I personally will not be voting for Obama, but I do not see any candidate on the horizon, whom I fear can defeat him in a general election.
 
485Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 22:31
Yet the elites ignored the roar.

The elites? Meaning those who determine who are and aren't God's people?

 
486Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 22, 2012, 22:32
SC is an outlier, Baldwin. Just because it happens to match your desires for a fire-breathing anti-Jesus Republican party doesn't mean otherwise--it merely means that you are over-hoping how many within the GOP desire Gingrich as the current face of the party.

The only thing Gingrich has is attitude. He's the consummate GOP insider, who failed as a party leader and brings to the table the kind of personal baggage that makes John Edwards seem attractive.

 
487Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 00:43
#485 PV

You understand #480 ['the elites'] was in blockquotes because I didn't write it?
 
488Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 01:23
Chuck Norris endorses Newt.

Its far too late to write a joke for that. Go at it, fellas.
 
489Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 01:42
That is a highly sought endorsement among republicans.
 
490Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 09:39
That is a highly sought endorsement among republicans.

yes it is. in fact, the critical "Walker, Texas Ranger" voting bloc is second among Conservatives, just behind Ted Nugent's important "Wang Dang Sweet Poontang" voting bloc.
 
491Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 10:05
You understand #480 ['the elites'] was in blockquotes because I didn't write it?

Correct, but it's a determination you consistently use, and it's a determination that has lost all meaning in today's dialogue. It's a word used simply to elicit an emotional response.

That's why Newt has gotten all the roars....The roar comes only at the expense of liberals and liberalism. You won't get the roar attacking others on the stage.

But, of course, that's exactly what Newt did, attack Romney as an elitist, as an establishment candidate, as a 1 percenter. The roar didn't come at the expense of liberals and liberalism. Newt praised Romneycare at the time. Newt benefitted from John King's ridiculous opening question by responding in attack mode. That's it. It has nothing to do with the elites, the unwashed or fans of cockfights. Newt benefitted from being a lucid debater and, admit it or not, from not being a Mormon, who are not among God's people according to a huge swath of influential evangelicals. Personally, I can't think of a more elitist position than "I'm going to heaven, you're going to hell," not based on the way a person lives their life, but their adherence to ancient writings. I can't think of a more elitist position than "I'm a real conservative, you're a RINO, you're a liberal, you're not worthy of anything other than disdain."

And it works the other way around, as pointed out in the the article in #480.

The American conservative base has had to put up with being called stupid, racist, greedy and unfair

But when Gingrich accuses Romney(a conservative) of these things, somehow he's a populist, not an elitist.

Let's just dispense with terms like the "elites" unless we're talking about Lebron James or Tom Brady.





 
492Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 10:46
Well I'll agree with you in the sense that the party hierarchy isn't what it used to be tho they act and think as if they are.

I'll agree with you in the sense that the 'mainstream media' isn't what it used to be tho they act and think as if they are.

The big money picking Romney against the wishes of the republican base thing they are elite.

The commentariat who score Santorum a winner of the last debate thot their insight deserved a national stage.

Keep your eraser in the drawer. I like the big fat unabridged dictionary just fine thank you. You can limit yourself to the double-plus good skinny dictionary if you want.
 
493Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 11:10
Since we just mentioned Chuck Norris' endorsement of Newt let's also be reminded that Newt now has the endorsement of Michael Reagan, the only Reagan family member whose opinions closely track with Ronald Reagan.
 
494Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 11:47
Newt leads in FLA.

I can't help but think this is SC bounce, but that it won't last.
 
495Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 11:57
The big money picking Romney against the wishes of the republican base thing they are elite.

You can limit yourself to thinking you're the only one around here qualified to know the wishes of the Republican base, but you do so by ignoring that the Republican base is currently fractured in many directions.

You might as well say that big religion picking Santorum against the wishes of the Republican base think they are elite.

Big money has picked Romney because he has courted them for years, and he has a track record as an effective administrator and manager. To think that big money isn't part of the Republican base is further evidence of the fracture that exists in the party.

We've already seen several columns by your hero, Ann Coulter, tearing Newt limb from limb, now here's the latest from former Reagan administration economist,
Larry Kudlow.


“What it tells me is Newt Gingrich is not a free-market capitalist,” he said. “I just had Sen. Jon Kyl, who has not made an endorsement. And Kyl however, rapped Gingrich by saying ‘Republicans on the campaign trail that sound like left-wing Democrats are wrong and we need to make a moral case for free-market capitalism.’ And that’s my beef against Gingrich — political opportunism Steve Moore, does not in any way, shape or form in my book, just speaking personally political opportunism does not justify Gingrich’s attacks on capitalism.”

So, are we to believe that Coulter, Kudlow, Christie, and a horde of other pro-Romney/anti-Gingrich voices are all in opposition to the Republican base?



 
496Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 15:00
 
497sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 15:04
roflmao PRICELESS!
 
498Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 18:21
Funny indeed.

At least he didn't abort them all until he found a family he was finally happy with.

And he didn't take my tax dollars to do it either.
 
499Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 18:47
In what fantasy world would that ever have happened?
 
500Tree
      ID: 18082319
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 20:08
Crazy island would be my guess.
 
501Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Tue, Jan 24, 2012, 10:34
Gingrich flubs history in GOP debate

GINGRICH: "When I was speaker, we had four consecutive balanced budgets."

THE FACTS: Actually, two.


----------------------

As Gingrich’s fate rises, so does Obama’s

As he prepares for his third State of the Union address--and, he hopes, not his last--Barack Obama's likelihood of reelection has soared in the last few days to 56.8 percent, the highest it has been since last July. This movement is correlates with Newt Gingrich's increased likelihood of gaining the Republican nomination, now at 29.7 percent, up from about 5 percent. But, this upward trend is also correlates with a simultaneous downward movement of Mitt Romney's likelihood of winning the presidency if he wins the nomination, now at 44.0, down from about 48 percent.

lookin' good, lookin' good.
 
502walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 08:44
NYT: Real Newt Gingrich

Fascinating.
 
503Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 12:00
Gingrich under fire from conservative media

the constant, remains constant, as they continue to eat their own.
 
504Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 21:31
"President John Tyler’s grandson says Newt Gingrich is a 'jerk'. " - Mackenzie Weinger

Nothing says gravitas like 'Politico'.
 
505Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 21:35
Mocking the messenger won't help you.
 
506sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 22:38
I still think Dole said it best, when he indicated "not a person who worked with Newt in Congress has endorsed him, and that sort of says it all."; or words to the affect anyway. (No, not bothering to look it up.)
 
507Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 23:45
Thanks for the tip, Sarge.

We'll just have to go back to the blackboard and find ourselves a darling of the insiders.
 
508sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 00:04
Newt tells his press coverage "Find your oen damn ride"

Stick a fork in him, he is done.

Also, the press was no longer invited to fly with Gingrich to the next contest in Nevada, which will hold its Republican caucuses on Feb. 4.

No one from Gingrich's campaign would say on the record why the reporters were no longer invited to travel with the candidate.

"I don't have to give you a reason," R.C. Hammond, a Gingrich spokesman, said.


So Newt is gonna have a cple appearances over the next few days, with no national coverage. lmao Cutting his nose off, just to spite his face. And that guy B, THAT jagoff, is your grand GOP savior?!?!?!?!?!?!
 
509sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 00:19
I'm reminded of the writet who closed his article re Newt-Romney the other day with a line to the affect of; "But Romney has a secret weapon. Newt is his own worst enemy and that will work to Romney's advantage".
 
510Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 01:42
Palin fields the question about whether Newt is the consummate insider or the anti-establishment reformer.
 
511Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 03:19
Let's just say that anyone who made more than a million dollars working for the Fed is a Washington insider and leave it at that.
 
512Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 04:34
Who would that be?
 
514Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 09:06
The establishment fears Newt because they know him as well as they know any of their own and because they know he will self-destruct, both as a candidate and in office.

The shark is deep in her wake. What's funny is that her wake is also a bee line straight to the establishment's mouthpiece. That's always been the direction she was headed. She was recruited by establishment neocon media. Her coming out party was the John "Maverick" (heehee) McCain presidential campaign. She earned her cred by capturing the heart of a national anti-tax movement that in the early days was begging Democrats to join and steered it directly to the Republican Party (but always criticizing the GOP out of the other side of her mouth just often enough to keep the conservative zeitgeist believing she is something credibly different).

She quit politics, saying the same thing political losers always say when they cash in on the supposed principles that made them famous and took millions from establishment conservative media (which she criticizes out of the other side of mouth for failing to properly genuflect before Newt) and millions more by turning her family into a reality-tv spectacle.

She is as establishment as apple pie and Mountain Dew and special among them only for having hoodwinked the zeitgeist into seeing her as an outsider.

If actual principle were a factor shouldn't we have heard her rail Newt's support for death panels by now?

Or her own?
 
515Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 11:03

“And I say, you know, you’ve got to rage against the machine at this point in order to defend our republic and save what is good and secure and prosperous about our nation,” Palin continued. “We need somebody who is engaged in sudden and relentless reform and is not afraid to shake up the establishment. So, if for no other reason, rage against the machine, vote for Newt, annoy a liberal, vote Newt, keep this vetting process going, keep the debate going.”

I suppose there's no better evidence of Palin's irrelevance than to note these comments were relegated to some weekend Fox News show called “Justice with Jeanine”.

It's impossible to believe someone wants to "keep the debate going" when they encourage "annoy a liberal" in the same sentence. She is a master of rendering words meaningless. As MITH points out in #514, she is the establishment. "Defend our republic and save what is good and secure and prosperous about our nation.”
Her idea of defending the republic is to annoy a liberal. Her idea of what is good, secure and prosperous about our nation is having her daughter featured on "Dancing With the Stars," while railing against the evils of Hollywood.

She was a novelty politician, and now she's a novelty political analyst.



 
516Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 12:21
By all means, please heed Palin's call and "annoy" me by nominating Newt Gingrich and sealing the deal on Obama's 2012 reelection.
 
517Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 12:23
#511: My bad--it was very late and I meant Freddie Mac.
 
518Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 14:25
It's obvious. If she were establishment you'd kinda like her.

If Newt was an establishment 'go-along-to-get-along' insider, they'd like him.

If you think they are the good part of the republican party, they are the bad part.
 
519sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 17:20
If she had a functional brain, and actually utilized it, then MAYBE, there would be something there TO like...maybe.

If Newt WERENT an entrenched part of the establishment, he would not be getting a free pass for taking millions from Freddie/Fannie to serve as a"historian"?!?!?! Yeah, historian...right.

What we thnk, is that they are a DEFUNCT part of a party which is rapidly imploding.
 
520sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 17:26
The truth is SO inconvenient for poor Newt

"I think that the election will be substantially closer than the two polls that came out this morning," Gingrich said. "You'll notice that 48 hours ago there was another poll that showed us tied."

Yeah, then your SC bump faded with your dismal debate performance, and now you are not going anywhere. Buh-bye Newt.
 
521Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 18:55
I don't think the concept of "hated GOP insider" has really sunk in for Sarah Palin or her apologists.

Gingrich was Speaker of the House, and later made millions in consulting fees based upon his experience in the Beltway. You can't get more inside than not.

This whole argument is what happens when you make up a fake problem and reality intrudes. The Tea Party hates the GOP "Establishment" until they find one they like, so they want to change the definition. So they can crow about "always being right."
 
522Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 21:21
What we thnk, is that they are a DEFUNCT part of a party

As usual, assume the opposite of whatever a liberal thinks, especially when it comes to perceiving republican party realities.

The Tea Party hates the GOP "Establishment" until they find one they like

Yeah, that's the general idea. They are OK with the anti-Bob Michels/anti-Mitt Romney being establishment for a very long time.
 
523sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 21:29
B? A weightlifter puts powder on his hands to dry them real well, so he doesnt lose his grip on the bar. You may want to try that. Might allow you to retain your grip on reality a bit longer.
 
524Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 22:17
You see, I actually remember when establishment insider minority leader Bob Michels and his golfing buddy speaker of the house Tip-O-Neil sit there steaming mad as Newt and his anti-establishment young turks upset the combine applecart in after-hour special sessions.

Reality..did you ever have a grip on it?
 
525Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 22:23
And I hope the OWS crowd find themselves cold, wet and bone-tired after spending the winter out of doors building the anti-Mitt Romney zeitgeist only to find Newt standing against Obama instead.
 
526sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 23:33
So does the OWS. That happens, and Obama wins in a landslide.
 
527Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 00:06
Absolutely. Democrats want the GOP primary to go exactly like the Tea Party wants. There really is no better recipe for the Dems to take back the House and give Obama a big mandate for his second term.
 
528Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 00:13
Of course, neither the Tea Party nor the Dems will get their dream in this case. Romney's route to the nomination, even at this stage, is pretty much assured. Remember: There are some states for which Gingrich didn't even get on the ballot.

Some are hoping for another candidate (too late) or for a brokered convention (which will be decided by the GOP Establishment in the form of the RNC). In the meantime, we'll just let the Tea Party darling du jour continue to crank out ads for the Democrats until his handler's money runs out.
 
529sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 00:31
Don-ald Trump, Don-ald Trump...lol
 
530sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 00:53
Newt being Newt. He cant help himself.

When he began discussing foreign policy, Gingrich said that Obama "lives in a fantasy world where there are no enemies" and characterized the president's perception of Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez as "just misguided people with whom he has not yet had coffee." He went on from there:

We watched him go see Hugo Chavez and we watched him smile and be friendly while Chavez deliberately, cynically and insultingly gave him an anti-American book and Obama didn't have a clue he'd been insulted. You know, Ahmadinejad, the dictator of Iran, says that he wants to wipe out Israel and drive America out of the Middle East. Now, as a historian, I have a pretty good sense of what that means. It means he wants to wipe out Israel, and drive America out of the Middle East. But if I were a left-wing Harvard Law graduate surrounded by really clever left-wing academics, I would know that this is actually a sign that Ahmadinejad probably had a bad childhood. That his potty training was probably inadequate. And that it's time to come to grips with his mother's failure to love him enough. And therefore he's expressing himself in some manner. If only we could unlock it, we could be closer to him and we could be friends together. This is madness.


While Newt may have become hysterical, the comments beneath this article are truly hilarious.
 
531Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 08:19
What's hysterical is that you guys think Chavez' handing the anti-USA book "The Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent" was a kumbaya moment.

Only in the sense that it was a meeting of two anti-American soul-mates.
 
532Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 11:30
I'm guessing you are hearing about that whole thing strictly through your media handlers, who have told you what to think, ginned you up into going out and posting about it like you would a religious conversion.

Obama, IMO, handled it just fine. He took the book and said he might reciprocate by sending Chavez one of his. He pointedly didn't say he'd read it.
 
533DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 11:51
Clearly, his only appropriate move in the middle of a meeting would have been to pull his pants down and take a giant steaming dump on the front cover of the book.

Or, possibly, to take the book and start beating Chavez in the face with it like he was the fax machine in Office Space.

Failure to do those things means he must hate America. There are no other alternatives.

(lol Newt, lol Boldwin, lol stupidity everywhere)
 
534Tree
      ID: 530493112
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 13:50
‘Everyone step on his toes!’ Gingrich security harasses Ron Paul supporter: Scenes from the Florida primary

lovely.
 
535biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 22:20
Finally!

I get to read the name Alinsky somewhere besides Boldwin's posts. God bless Newt.

It turns out he can't be a figment of Boldwin's imagination of Newt's heard of him too! Right?

David Brooks: Newt Gingrich never should have messed with Saul Alinsky. All across Florida old geezers were hearing Gingrich rage against Alinsky and they were thinking, “Alinsky, Alinsky, I think that’s the guy I play bingo with in Boca. Seems like a perfectly nice fella. If Gingrich hates him, I think I’ll vote for Mitt.”

That’s my first takeaway from the Florida primary. Don’t mess with Saul Alinsky. I’d lay off Gus Hall too, just to be safe.

 
536sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 22:23
Maher did a great bit the other night, referencing S Alinsky as well. (PD linked an article with the Maher vid embedded.) I'll peek a bit see if I cant find it. lol
 
537sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 22:30
post 1445
 
538Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 04:48
Fisking link in #535:

If Gingrich hates him, I think I’ll vote for Mitt.

Which reminds us of the conservative corollary, If David Brooks likes him...

I’m curious to know if Callista can talk...My general rule about male presidential candidates is that in almost all cases, the wife is smarter than the candidate...but this year that seems especially true.

My general rule is David Brooks is an idiot.

There is no major issue that directly touches people’s lives on which Gingrich is clearly and unmistakably to Romney’s right

Yeah there is, the ones which they seriously intend to act on. The ones they'll even remember after securing the nomination.
 
539Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 04:55
Alinsky, Alinsky, I think that’s the guy I play bingo with in Boca.

I'll bet Newt's base tells him about Alinsky more often than he tells them about Alinsky.

[Alinsky] Seems like a perfectly nice fella

David Brooks thinks the Vince Lombardi of communism is a perfectly nice fellow. Which explains why the NYT employs Brooks as their house conservative.
 
540biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 09:54
I'll bet Newt's base tells him about Alinsky more often than he tells them about Alinsky.

I bet you are correct. I bet a good portion of his base leaves their nightlights on, in case a pack of alinsky's jump out of their closet.
 
541Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 10:02
the Vince Lombardi of communism

This cariacature indicates you think Alinsky was not only a member, but a leader of the communist party. He was neither. You really don't know anything about Alinsky except what your handlers have fed you.

 
542Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 10:19
I'll bet Newt's base tells him about Alinsky more often than he tells them about Alinsky.

i'll also bet a good portion of his base can't even spell Alinsky, don't know his first name, couldn't name the book he wrote, that conservatives such as William Buckley have praised him, and that many leaders from the right including Dick Armey and the group FreedomWorks hand out "Rules for Radicals" to their organizational leaders.
 
543Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 10:45
This article from the Christian Science Monitor makes the case that Gingrich is using Alinsky tactics while demonizing him at the same time.

As a former history professor, Gingrich not only understands Alinsky’s motif, he’s made it a key part of his campaign.

“Gingrich's clashes against the establishment are classic Alinsky,” writes Philip Klein, senior editorial writer for the conservative Washington Examiner.

Democrats may rankle at Gingrich’s painting Obama as an Alinsky acolyte – a sort of red-baiting, although Alinsky never joined any organization, communist or otherwise. But some Republicans say the former House speaker himself is destructively channeling Alinsky when, for example, he goes after Mitt Romney’s wealth.

“What the hell are you doing, Newt?” asked an incredulous Rudolph Giuliani, former New York mayor and one-time presidential candidate, on Fox News.

“I expect this from Saul Alinsky. This is what Saul Alinsky taught Barack Obama, and what you’re saying is part of the reason we’re in so much trouble right now,” Mr. Giuliani said.


Future references to Alinsky and Alinsky tactics will be summarily dismissed as rhetorical nonsense, unless directed at Gingrich or the Tea Party, be it the original or current ones.

 
544Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 10:50
I've been making that case about the Tea Party for some time.
 
545Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 11:40
It's been clear for a long time that Republicans have no clue who Saul Alinsky is or what he stood for, other than his name sounds nefarious like it might be from Eastern Europe, which might be tied to communism. And beyond that, the connection to Obama has always been a joke. It's amazing that a Presidential candidate can repeat this charge over and over again and not be called on it. Newt's attacks on the media are, ironically, Alinsky-esque in that the media is not critical enough, but he is forcing them to be even less critical.
 
546Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 19:43
Razor

So you know Alinsky well enuff to know that I, Newt and conservatives don't.

What rule for radicals is Newt using? Not that I am entirely against fighting fire with fire.
And beyond that, the [Alinsky] connection to Obama has always been a joke.
He taught Alinsky tactics in university and activist groups. If he isn't one of Alinsky's foremost disciples who pray tell is more so?
 
547sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 19:46
You, Newt, Ann Coulter, Bill OReilly, FauxSpews in general....
 
548Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 21:03
So you know Alinsky well enuff to know that I... don't

You called him the Lombardi of communism. You either don't know him, are being intentionally dishonest with your inflammatory rhetoric, or both.
 
549Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 21:31
Oh, I absolutely know Alinsky and have studied his methods carefully. Know your enemy.

I'm just exposing Razor's fatuous snark in #545 for what it is. Tell us all about Alinsky, Razor.
 
550Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 22:14
I'm just exposing Razor's fatuous snark in #545 for what it is.

In reality, it was your fatuous snark in #539 that was exposed for what it is. It was exposed in the CSM article in #543:
Alinsky never joined any organization, communist or otherwise.

Until you get your story straight, why in the world would anyone think you

have studied his methods carefully?

Parroting irresponsible rhetoric hardly qualifies as careful study.

 
551Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 22:52
Alinsky never joined any organization, communist or otherwise

No, he just wrote their action plan.
 
552sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 22:54
proof?
 
553Canadian Hack
      ID: 164132618
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 22:57
Saul Alinksy is nobody. He is a dead guy of little importance worthy of at most a footnote in history. The crazy right has turned him into their boogie man. The strange thing is than in general the left had never heard of him until the right told them that he was their leader and motivation.

That is how far out of touch this discussion is.
 
554sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 23:10
from the wiki entry on Saul Alinksy:

He is generally considered to be the founder of modern community organizing, and has been compared to Thomas Paine as being "one of the great American leaders of the nonsocialist left."... Time magazine once wrote that "American democracy is being altered by Alinsky's ideas," and conservative author William F. Buckley said he was "very close to being an organizational genius."

hmmmm Great American leader...Organizational genius.....

Yep, sounds pretty damn dangerous to me. One could argue that George Washington was both of those things too. So now I suppose, we will here what a communist he was, eh Boldwin?
 
555Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 23:16
I never accused you of knowing anything.

The people who tell you what to think and do however, have been consciously following Alinsky, Antonio Gramsci and others.

No of course the common lefty couldn't tell you anything about any of the philosophers and tacticians who invented and run the left
 
556Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 23:17
he just wrote their action plan.

So, this is the result of your "careful study?"

Had you actually ever studied Alinsky, you'd know how ridiculous that statement is. He was ostracized by the communists during WW2 until his death, and he was critical of the totalitarian direction of communism starting in the early 30s with Stalin's excesses.
His sympathies were with the Poles, Czecks, Latvians and Lithuanians and their plight against the Moscow and Berlin juggernauts.

There is an Alinsky quote that fits well here:

"If you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated" - Saul Alinsky
 
557sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 23:18
I know this Boldwin...you are one sanctimonious SoB. Not to worry....you'll know soon enough, just how wrong you have been.
 
558Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 23:48
PV

Yeah, communists who think communism isn't bad, just Stalin's version are ubiquitous.

That's the whole point. You guys never learn.
 
559Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 00:07
"you guys" meaning "conservatives who find hateful rhetoric and bridge burning to be useless in getting things done."

The Tea Party's attempts to study and emulate Alinsky's tactics are pathetic. Like high school seniors putting on lab coats, calling themselves "scientists" and declaring most science to be biased.
 
560Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 00:28
You guys never learn.

Learn what? You claim to have carefully studied Alinsk's tactics, but have yet to make an intelligent sentence regarding them.

the Lombardi of communism
He wrote their action plan
communists who think communism isn't bad


These responses are pathetically robotic. If you have something intelligent to offer about the guy, spill it.
 
561Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 01:37
Alinsky never joined any organization, communist or otherwise

No, he just wrote their action plan.


and the proof that was requested from you, goes unanswered.

it's gotten to the point where nearly every post from Baldwin sounds like this:



 
562Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 05:02
PV

Really, I've already educated myself and you. It's your turn to to belatedly catch up to what I've spent three years detailing to you.

Antonio Gramsci is the communist who described the slow and patient 'long march thru the institutions' as an alternative to violent marxist revolution [or as a prelude if necessary].

Alinsky perfected the method. He wrote the action plan.

I'm doing a slow burn here, because driving the short bus is exasperating.
 
563Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 05:22
And it's no accident that of the two leading candidates for the democrat nomination in 2008:

1) Hillary wrote a paper on Alinsky for her senior thesis.

2) Obama taught Alinsky in university.



But you guys never heard of Alinsky from anyone but me.

That's because you are just common liberals.

You are just the zombies who repeat after them.
 
564Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 08:18
Really, I've already educated myself and you. It's your turn to to belatedly catch up to what I've spent three years detailing to you.

That's because you are just common liberals.

:oD

i've honestly never met a person with such a high level of hubris and delusion. Canadian Hack mentioned this in another thread, and i think it's an accurate, and sad, assessment.

you do need some sort of help Balwin. whatever level of mental illness you have is progressing, and you should really get help before it's too late.
 
565Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 10:24
562 and 563

You didn't educate about these things, and nothing in your links supports the Lombardi of communism and your other claims. No support that he wrote a communist action plan. As usual, you completely ignore facts that don't fit in with your limited study on the man. Had you actually done a careful study of Alinsky, you'd know that his most important rule is avoidance of slavish devotion to dogma.

My only fixed truth is a belief in people, a conviction that if people have the opportunity to act freely and the power to control their own destinies, they'll generally reach the right decisions. The only alternative to that belief is rule by an elite, whether it's a Communist bureaucracy or our own present-day corporate establishment. You should never have an ideology more specific than that of the founding fathers: "For the general welfare." That's where I parted company with the Communists in the Thirties, and that's where I stay parted from them today. - Saul Alinsky

If and when you find yourself capable of commenting on Alinsky quotes like this one, you will continue to be summarily dismissed as any kind of source on the subject.

Patting yourself on the back on how you've educated us about Alinsky is a sham. Obama taught Alinsky in college. Dick Armey taught Alinsky to the Tea Party. Does that make the Tea Party's plan of action a communist agenda?

In order to honestly discuss Alinsky and Alinsky tactics, one needs to abandon the communist, Marxist, red-baiting terms and focus on his organizational strategies, the basis for his celebrity.
 
566Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 10:31
I can comment on it just fine.

Violent revolutionary communists don't care if you know they are communists when they come at you with their weapons.

When a slow march Gramsci marxist tries to slip that steaming pile of marxism under your nose for several generations, he has to be more slippery and evasive.
 
567Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 10:37
So your response is that you don't have to answer the question. Because they are stealth communist and therefore not subject to the usual rules of evidence.

And how many communists' names are on that piece of paper, again?

I notice that the Far Right gets all McCarthy on many questions like this these days. Got the same reaction in questioning my local state rep about his charge of "widespread voter fraud" in the area--he insisted that the lack of evidence was merely evidence that "Move On and SIEU" were doing a good job of it.
 
568Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 10:41
Yeah, show me how he supported private property and renounced "from each according to their ability, to each according to his need".

The only area he differed from the communist party line was in how to achieve their common purpose.
 
569Tree
      ID: 5113839
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 10:44
re: 565 and 566

from post 23, in this thread: Actually deal with the quotes from (his) own mouth...

so, have at it Baldwin. PV even supplied you with a quote to deal with.
 
570Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 11:00
The reason Boldwin can't competently comment on Alinsky is very basic. Boldwin is a slave to his own dogma, his own interpretation of what constitutes conservatism, so it's impossible for him to comprehend Alinsky's philosophy of flexibility not bound by rigid and narrow ideology.

That's the crux of the issue. As long as we're stuck on the commie!commie!commie! claims, there's nowhere to go. It isn't educational, informative or relevant in trying to postulate what constitutes "Alinsky tactics," which can be employed regardless of the political persuasion of the organization. For proof, ask William F Buckley, Dick Armey or Barack Obama.
 
571Tree
      ID: 3121310
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 11:29
it's impossible for him to comprehend Alinsky's philosophy of flexibility not bound by rigid and narrow ideology.

that tends to be his problem with most things, as evidenced by his (paraphrase) "if you're not in the Tea Party completely, you're not in the Tea Party at all."

some people need rigid boundries to get by in life. it's the only way they can survive, because going outside of that construct proves to be mentally and emotionally taxing. i wouldn't be stunned to find out that Baldwin has a form of Autism, as he fits the very basic criteria to a T.

it's always been weird to me when people subscribe to one idealogy and don't stray, while affixing a different idealogy to others and presume that they too, don't deviate from the perceived standard.

i'm a liberal. i make no bones about it. but i'm also anti-abortion (while being pro-choice), pro-Israel, pro-gun rights (to a certain extent), and there are probably a dozen other things i believe in that don't fit into some nice little box of "liberalism".

still, 569 (and 565 and 566) is out there for him, with his own words. let's see if he can even follow them. like you, i tend to doubt it.
 
572Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 12:28
while affixing a different idealogy to others and presume that they too, don't deviate from the perceived standard.

I perceive your mind to be squirming like a toad.
 
574Tree
      ID: 43120312
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 13:25
The real Newt Gingrich, is apparently a crybaby who wants to change the rules AFTER losing the game.
 
575Tree
      ID: 43120312
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 13:26
I perceive your mind to be squirming like a toad.

go back to grade school, where your insults were top of the class.

it's probably a good place for you in general, because the adults here would like to have a conversation.
 
576Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 13:34
I read that about the delegates. He's hinted at it previously, but was hoping to win, I think and then quietly drop his complaint about proportional delegation.
 
577Tree
      ID: 48149317
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 18:54
re: 534 Ron Paul supporter files lawsuit against Gingrich campaign for broken foot at Florida precinct


if something similar were to happen from the left, Baldwin would be up in arms. oh, wait. he was. and still is, mis-stated facts and all.

strangely silent here though, as Gingrich's goon squad appears to have intentionally injured a supporter of one of Gingrich's opponents.

 
578Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Feb 11, 2012, 23:43
Newt at CPAC

Listen and understand why Newt is the conservative Reaganite option.

Newt is the only guy left standing whose victory would be worth winning.
Santorum has no charisma. He barely excites his own side.
Romney has no principles he wouldn't compromise away.
 
579Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Feb 11, 2012, 23:48
In fact listen to that one speech and you'll know exactly why establishment republicans, the MSM and the liberals on this board want Romney as the nominee.
 
580Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 00:13
Well, if you limit yourself to one speech at CPAC, and nod along, sure. Luckily, only a sliver of America matches the typical CPAC attendee. And the numbers are shrinking.

If you believe most others on this board to be "liberals" then you make yourself look a little silly by claiming that we want Romney as the nominee when we've been saying all along otherwise.

If I were a partisan liberal, there's no way I want oily Romney as the Republican nominee: I'd want the guy who can't even get his old co-workers to say they would support him. I'd pray for the farthest, craziest, red-meat eating wacko you got--the one with the largest ego and the inability to work well with others in-party or not.

I'd absolutely want Gingrich over Romney. Just as I'd have wanted Palin. Then Bachmann. Then Cain. The only way to destroy the Rapid Right is to give them everything they want in a candidate, then run that person in a general election.
 
581Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 04:15
Well ok then. I expect to hear a LOT more pro Gingerich sentiment around here then. Since yer all so gung ho about facing HIM.
 
582biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 10:06
Most people's minds don't work the way yours work, Boldwin. Just because we think he'll get smoked in the election doesn't mean I'm going to start saying nice things about the doofus.
 
583Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 12:19
And the fact that we want Obama to face him in the general election doesn't mean we like him or think he's got good ideas. The opposite, in fact.
 
584sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 13:11
I long ago lost count, how many times I (and others) have posted "PLEASE nominate XXXXXX", where opne could freely insert Palin, Cain, Newt for the XXXXXX.

As PD says, doesnt mean we think well of them, but in fact means we think our dogs could give them a run for their money in a general election.
 
585Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 14:12
This is a moot conversation. Gingrich is toast. 6% in the Maine caucus and 20% at the CPAC convention is further proof that he's flamed out big time.

The nominee will be Romney or Santorum. The only question remaining regarding Gingrich is which candidate his delegates will support at the convention, assuming it's still open.
 
586Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 16:11
I expect to hear a LOT more pro Gingerich sentiment around here then. Since yer all so gung ho about facing HIM.

i love gingrich. i love that he has staffers try to edit facts from his biography on wikipedia. i love that he's a lying, cheating, wife-leaving jerk. i love that he's an incredible hypocrite.

and i love that his supporters who would be critical of any of those things if Bill Clinton did it, but because it's Gingrich, they're forgiving him as "human" and "fallible".

it makes them all look like chumps and suckers, so i love that about him.
 
587Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 17:06
Imagine what a waste of time it would be for me to claim Clinton was a small government conservative and then I spent countless posts trying to convince you that my favorite person in the democrat party should be your nominee?

Yet that is what many of you try in reverse.

Reagan is the biggest roadblock to your agenda, not some unprincipled middle-of-the-roader.

If you think a republican should be the nominee, your non-'progressive' opponents won't support them and they can't get elected unless they have infinite money. Which should disqualify them automatically.

Show me anyone with any reasonable claim to being a conservative who buys Reagan as a middle-of-the-roader and who thinks the McCain wing of the party should be running it.
 
588Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 17:29
You confuse us wanting to see him as the nominee with us agreeing with what he stands for. I, for one, would love him to be the nominee because he would get crushed in the general election. I said the same on these boards about Palin, and Cain.
 
589sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 22:30
Show me anyone with any reasonable claim to being a conservative who buys Reagan as a middle-of-the-roader...

Pretty much, 90% of the people who worked with him closely and daily. Those HAVE been shown to you, but the you call them derisive names, instead of re-examine what the rest of us already know.
 
590Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 23:22
I'm not sure why Baldwin keeps mis-remembering how we are describing Reagan. Being willing to work with and compromise in the short term in order to advance your policies isn't a moderate or liberal trait. It is the trait of someone who gets things done.

Unlike sarge, I don't think the people that worked with him would describe him as moderate. But they all would describe him as a guy who got things done, often through diplomacy and negotiation.

Faux conservatives these days forget the whole "negotiation through strength" tactics Reagan perfected and now just want strength.
 
591sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Mon, Feb 13, 2012, 00:01
BY middle of the road, I mean to say PD, that he gave and he got. Compromise, was how anything gets achieved. Particularly, when you are talking about governing a large geography, with a large and diverse population. Such a governance, absent comproise, could only be called a dictatorship. An apparent objective, of the rabid right, and the last thing Reagan would have pursued.
 
592WiddleAvi
      ID: 3611313016
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 08:07
 
593Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 09:26
that seriously had me LOL.
 
594Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 16:32
Funny, it's no holds barred cultural warfare against the right, but the right should be polite.

This means war, Adele.
 
595Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 17:29
The fact that the video is a fake should probably matter to you, but won't.
 
596Tree
      ID: 191161416
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 17:34
Funny, it's no holds barred cultural warfare against the right, but the right should be polite.

This means war, Adele.


i wish the right would get a sense of humor and understand parody and satire. you DO realize Adele didn't really sing that, right?

oy.

there is a difference between satire, and being downright mean and ignorant. you may not know the difference, but it is striking.
 
597Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 18:10
There about an infinite number of bloggers pushing that video and no Adele denying it. I see only one internet site calling it a hoax atm and they also were taken in by it earlier.
 
598Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 18:20
Heh. OK--you keep believing it. Make sure to base your buying and political decisions about it. The Internet is never wrong about these kinds of things...
 
599Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 18:30
Fake or not, I find it tasteless. She's 23 and British, and her knowledge of Newt Gingrich would probably fit on the head of a pin.

If it were some country singer like Carrie Underwood doing an Obama parody immediately after a big night at the Grammys, I'd feel the same way.
 
600Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 18:35
But if it is fake, it isn't her, PV.

Fake. I'm just saying.
 
601Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 18:42
But if it is fake, it isn't her, PV

Hopefully she'll sue for taking advantage of her current popularity.
 
602Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 18:47
And it'll be a good introduction into American culture.

:)
 
603Tree
      ID: 21341418
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 19:38
Fake or not, I find it tasteless. She's 23 and British, and her knowledge of Newt Gingrich would probably fit on the head of a pin.

well, to me, the bolded part above was the first clue it was fake.

There about an infinite number of bloggers pushing that video

yes. bloggers push stuff all the time that is fake. then again, you're the king of falling for fake stuff, vis a vis James O'Keefe.
 
604Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 20:24
Well nothing like the consistency of hypocrisy.
 
605Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 02:18
How many hours until she disowns it?
 
606Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 08:52
1. i know if i just swept the Grammys, one of the last things i'd be concerned with is getting on the internet and watching a video that has garnered a relatively small amount of views.

2. never mind what PV pointed out above, the video was also uploaded by Venga Productions, and a simple click on their name under the "Adele" video shows that they have uploaded NUMEROUS parody videos poking fun at Conservatives.

3. either way, it's still parody, and seeing someone who constantly attacks other whining about it is laughable. grow a sack.

also, Spreading Santorum.
 
607Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 10:02
I think it's despicable that Venga Productions is allowed to air this "parody," unless they have Adele's prior consent. And it appears, at least from this quote from last May, that her political leanings don't exactly line up with the left:

Fed up with high taxes and national health care, the chart topping pop star told Q magazine, “I’m mortified to have to pay 50 percent! [While] I use the NHS, I can’t use public transport any more. Trains are always late, most state schools are s#$&, and I’ve gotta give you, like, four million quid – are you having a laugh? When I got my tax bill in from [the album] 19, I was ready to go and buy a gun and randomly open fire.”

Riding the wave of her Grammy wins to promote an anti-anything parody, especially one that might not line up with her political views, shouldn't be tolerated, even in the most cynical of circles. It's just not funny to me. They could have used a celebrity like Natalie Maines of the Dixie Chicks, who probably actually sympathizes with the message, but when was the last time the Dixie Chicks won a Grammy, or were able to garner headlines? I hope Adele sues the shit out of Venga Productions and puts them out of business.

link
 
608Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 13:03
If that's not her voice, whose is it?
 
609Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 13:14
If that's not her voice, whose is it?

Rich Little.
 
610sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Fri, Feb 17, 2012, 16:50
Newts Superpac to rcv ANOTHER $10,000,000 from "his guy". That makes it $30,000,000 so far, from one source.

Come on now, this HAS to illustrate the error of that SCOTUS decision.
 
611Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 16:21
Don't hold your breath waiting for a reply from Gingrich on this one.
 
612Tree
      ID: 441112414
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 15:13
Newt really just needs to go away before he gets even more ridiculous.

Republican White House hopeful Newt Gingrich has angrily denounced President Obama's apology to Afghan President Hamid Karzai over the burning of Korans at a U.S. military base.
 
613Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 16:19
Nah. Newt marginalizes himself.
 
614Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 17:06
Max Boot piles on, calling the comments "ignorant and irresponsible."
 
615Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 21:07
A) It wouldn't be such a slam dunk issue if Obama hadn't already spent three years desperately looking for any excuse to grovel and urinate all over himself in a national display of foreign policy submissiveness.

B) In this rare case such an apology was in order but only if it was reciprocated by Karzai in an expression of grief over the loss of life on all sides.

C) It should not be lost, the incredible chutzpa of islam in demanding far better treatment than it dishes out.
 
616DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 21:10
That's them thar Islamists, of course, not all the Islamics... right?
 
617Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 21:14
Well actually this particular demand that others show extreme reverence for their holy book while they bare no similar obligation is pretty universal in Islam, not just limited to Islamists. They are the same way with treatment of any mosque btw.
 
618Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 21:20
So you're OK if they took the Bibles from western prisoners and burned them?

I think it is a bit much for you to take them to task for "extreme reverence for their holy book" since you exhibit the same characteristics yourself.

That isn't a bad thing, IMO. Just hypocritical for you to criticize them for it.
 
619DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 21:25
A 10 second google search turns something up that might be relevant.

Islam decrees that Muslims should respect and honor the Bible and Torah as well.

Also, why are you defending burning other people's private property in general? What gives you the right to burn other people's stuff, just because you don't like the contents of it?
 
620Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 21:33
post 617 is pretty self-reflexive. and not unexpected from the faux Christian on the boards.

and post 618 is very relevant, as i would wager that many soldiers who carry bibles, torahs, etc, don't follow them to the letter.

so it would be ok for our enemies to burn them?
 
621Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 21:50
I suppose it's hard to imagine how Americans would react if a Muslim-dominated Afghani Army were occupying our country and Bibles were burnt on their bases.

It's not hard to imagine who among us would deem heroes those who decided to retaliate by killing a couple of the occupiers.
 
622DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 21:55
"I suppose it's hard to imagine how Americans would react if a Muslim-dominated Afghani Army were occupying our country and Bibles were burnt on their bases."

I'm sure that Boldwin, for one, would be just fine with it and would certainly not protest, in the interest of intellectual consistency.
 
623Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 22:34
I think it is a bit much for you to take them to task for "extreme reverence for their holy book" - PD and all strawman developers.

I am pointing out that they insist [on pain of death] that everyone else, show more reverence for the koran than they do for their own holy book.

That kind of chutzpah comes from people who carry themselves with an implicit threat at all times that they just might cut your throat.
 
624DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 23:11
"That kind of chutzpah comes from people who carry themselves with an implicit threat at all times that they just might cut your throat."

You'll have to forgive their barbarism, they don't have the modern military weaponry designed to blow people away from a drone plane like we do.
 
625Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 01:51
show more reverence for the koran

This, in response to the burning of their holy book?

Seriously?

So your position is that Muslims are asking too much that their holy book not be burned? The chutzpah, indeed.
 
626Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 08:26
I am pointing out that they insist that everyone else, show more reverence for the koran than they do for their own holy book.

that's what you do for your own holy book...

for you, there is no religious belief other than your own - a religious belief, that among other things, apparently allows for the worship of criminals, accepts the desecration of corpses, and blames the victims for the burning of their holy books.

mighty fine, mighty fine. God would be so proud.
 
627Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 02:31
PD

Yes seriously. My position is that one religion doesn't have the right to threaten to start killing random passersby, and then actually do it everytime they hear a rumor that someone accidentally might have burned their book.
 
628Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 02:54
My position is that one religion doesn't have the right to threaten to start killing random passersby,

you've got no problems with Christians murdering.

and then actually do it everytime they hear a rumor that someone accidentally might have burned their book.

and intentionally burning that book? you're condoning that?
 
629sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 13:19
Last night Wolf Blitzer was 'interviewing' Gingrich's daughters. One of them said, "Our Dad is a man of his word".....Blitzer didnt ask, though I was hoping he would all while knowing he wouldnt dare, "Should we check with either of his first two wives for commentary on that?"
 
630boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 14:05
and intentionally burning that book? you're condoning that?

Yes, it is book. who cares unless it unique or something.
 
631Tree
      ID: 10291413
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 14:13
Yes, it is book. who cares unless it unique or something.


who cares? the people that are upset at you because you consider their holy book no different that a pile of dung.

THEY CARE.
 
632Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 14:26
We should take care, at minimum, not to go out of our way to intentionally offend people. Accidents happen, but intentional slights are not helpful to our own interests.
 
633sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 15:02
Muslims look at the Koran, with greater reverence than most Americans look at the flag. Now look at how angry how many Americans get, over burning the flag, and the Muslims anger over burning the Koran becomes pretty clear.
 
634DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 16:25
"Yes, it is someone else's personal property. who cares unless it unique or something."

Boikin, fyp. If for no other reason than this, you really ought to have a problem with sending soldiers thousands of miles away to burn other people's personal property that was causing you no harm.
 
635boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 17:03
burn other people's personal property

I do have problem with that, but that is a crime taking what is not yours.

if you own a Qur'an, a flag, a bible a whatever and assuming it is not made from something toxic go ahead burn it.

We should take care, at minimum, not to go out of our way to intentionally offend people.

I should save this quote for next time the discussion turns to something that offends another group, which is almost every social topic.


 
636Tree
      ID: 332391416
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 17:46
post 635 just don't make any sense. there's no logic to it.

it's ok to burn things like bibles and flags, because, who cares.

well, unless it's toxic. then don't burn it.

is it ok to burn your furniture? your house? your family?
 
637Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 17:50
I should save this quote...

When you do, I hope you'll take note of the careful construction of my point, since you might have missed it at first reading.

I wasn't referring to people being offended, but going out of our way to offend someone. In other words, we don't have to answer to overly-sensitive people, but we do have to answer for being dicks.
 
638DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 19:17
"if you own a Qur'an, a flag, a bible a whatever and assuming it is not made from something toxic go ahead burn it."

Yes. But the people that burned it didn't own it. That's, kind of, exactly the point.

"is it ok to burn your furniture? your house? your family? "

In order: Yes, if it's solely yours; yes, if it's solely yours (and obviously throw in that you're not committing insurance fraud, and that you make sure the fire doesn't damage anyone else or their property); obviously not.
 
639Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 19:28
Unfortunately we don't get to stay in the abstract world.

In reality we know that every time it happens there will be a hostage taking/deliberate murder incident.

So the real question is how much does it cost society to knuckle under to their thugish threats vs just not doing it.
 
640Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 19:38
Some might say that the "abstract world" is the same as "God's kingdom on earth."

Not acting like a dick seems like the bare minimum to be considered for entrance into that club. Even when it makes us look weak.
 
641Tree
      ID: 272381418
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 19:40
So the real question is how much does it cost society to knuckle under to their thugish threats vs just not doing it.

thugish threats??

you don't burn a holy book. you'd find it acceptable to burn bibles? to burn the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures?

you're ok with this?
 
642DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 21:26
I'm confused how "I want to burn other people's private property, but I'm upset that I can't burn other people's private property because they'll get mad at me" is a compelling argument, but perhaps it was poorly elucidated by Boldwin and he'll explain why burning other people's property should be no big deal without using "but they're Muslims" as a defense.

I would have thought that "don't burn other people's stuff" would be pretty high on a list of conservative ideals. Something about not stealing, or not coveting anything that is thy neighbors. I admit that they didn't specifically say you couldn't take their stuff and then burn it, or that you could be made that they have stuff but it's not okay that they be mad and want to defend their stuff, but 637,902,486 Commandments would have been unwieldy, what with the stone tablets and all. A little reading between the lines would be good.
 
643Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 09:27
If you bought it, it's not their stuff.
 
644boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 09:57
I wasn't referring to people being offended, but going out of our way to offend someone. In other words, we don't have to answer to overly-sensitive people, but we do have to answer for being dicks.

you might want to rethink some of your posts on the mosque across the street from the twin towers site. The problem is that you are still making a judgement call and who is to say what is what.
 
645DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 11:00
"If you bought it, it's not their stuff."

Assuming that you believe "if you bought it, you have the right to burn it" is a valid rule (leaving aside the questionability of your claim that our soldiers bought the Muslim holy books before they burned them), could you guys pretty please stop with this?
 
646Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 11:20
Yeah, you're right boikin, I am making a judgment call. I don't think building a mosque there is the same as being dicks.
 
647sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 12:29
Opposing th building of the mosque (ie, opposing the 1st Amendment), IS being dickish. So PDs posture between the two, is the same. Dont be a dick.
 
648Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 13:17
When we are in a world war with them you'll understand who's being a dick.

They insist others recognize their religion's superiority or they will start killing people.

When that monument commemorating their accomplishment on 9/11 goes up they will insist that that building never be sold or used for any other purpose. They will insist their law trumps the USA's laws.

They insist we trim our freedom of speech or they will start killing people.

They insist non-muslims in their countries pay double taxes in recognition of muslim superiority.

They insist on the right to kidnap and rape as part of legitimate religious conversion and marriage mate acquisition.

In some countries they don't have a word for a black man that doesn't mean slave.

These are all egregious examples of dickishness that you would be demanding any other group lose their jobs over at a minimum.

You love those anti-american diverse dicks tho.
 
649Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 13:24
I can only assume that these recent posts from our friends here are written with the foolish assumption that it won't be read by anyone who regularly interacts with actual Muslims.
 
650Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 13:27
Er friend, not friends. Thanks goodness on one of our members is so corrupted by that type of willful and eager hate for his fellow man.
 
651Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 13:45
Maybe you don't think hate is appropriate in this all too common case, but why would you accept it?

You love it? You pat yourself on the head for seeing it thru their eyes? That's appropriate?
 
652Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 13:50
Well I do admit a strong distaste for File Not Found errors but no, hate is not appropriate.
 
653sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 13:50
"omega 404 error"

yep, thats an all too common Muslim issue and well deserving of hatred
 
654Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 13:52
This you accept? Human Rights Commission of Pakistan: 20 to 25 Hindu girls forcibly converted to Islam each month
Qur'an 2:256 says there is "no compulsion in religion," but there is plenty of coercion in Islamic law. Sharia is set up in its dealings with non-Muslims to pressure them to convert through marginalization, punishment, humiliation, fear, and danger (cf. Qur'an 9:29). There are also innumerable opportunities for semantic games and rationalizations; above all, those in power could care less where persuasion ends and compulsion begins. Even so, many such conversions come with the forced signing of documents stating the victim converted of his or her own free will, just to keep things looking good on paper, and to have a legal document to use against the victim in the future ("But you signed..."). Or, as in this case, the victims are forced to make formal statements in court under duress.

“Apart from minor school girls, married women with children are not spared either,” he said.

The marriages of captives are abrogated (Qur'an 4:24).

The issue of Hindu girls being forcibly converted has come to the fore after the case of 18-year-old Rinkle Kumari from Sukkur who has converted and taken the Muslim name of Faryal after marrying a Muslim boy.

The family of the girl claim she was kidnapped and forcibly converted even after she appeared in court in Sukkur and claimed she converted out of her own free will.

But Motumel pointed out that not only were affected families warned of dire consequences but whenever a Hindu girl or her family appeared in court hundreds of religious zealots gather to pressurise them or they take to the streets as pressure tactics and to create an atmosphere of fear.

The families of Rinkle Kumari were also present at the conference in which her brother Inder said that had she been allowed to meet with her family members privately and even once she would never have converted.

“Despite the President’s orders for the girl’s rescue we are still waiting for something to be done.”

HRCP official Professor Badar Soomro said there was a need to enact new laws to restore a sense of security among the Hindu community.

He also said if a girl is kidnapped and her family registers a case she should be kept in a Darul Aman at least for a month before she is produced in court to record her statement.
Oh but you'd have to be an awful hater to oppose that.
 
655Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 13:57
Sorry to move this discussion toward the actual topic for a moment but I thought this was terrific - Gingrich: one of the reasons my campaign isn't going anywhere is that I'm so much smarter than all my opponents.

He explained that the other issue is that the GOP is resentful of big ideas. Oh and despite the $2.50/gal gas his campaign signs advertise, he's actually going to bring it down to $1.13 if we elect him.

Poor misunderstood uncomprehended Newt.
 
656Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 13:57
A minister in Morocco's Islamist government on Thursday called for a change to a law allowing a rapist to marry his victim after a 16-year-old teenager forced into such a union committed suicide.

Bassima Hakkaoui, Minister for Women and Families and the only woman in the cabinet, called for a debate to reform the law, in comments to state television channel 2M.

From the bad link:
Amina al-Filali, 16, drank rat poison last week in Larache, near Tangiers in the north, after being forced to marry the man who raped her.

He had sought to escape prison by invoking an article of the penal code that authorises the rapist to marry to escape prosecution.

This is something to which the families of such victims often agree because the loss of a woman's virginity outside of marriage is considered a dishonour to her family.
A different article on the same case

Not ashamed. I hate when that happens.
 
657Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 14:01
Don't forget, MITH, that he says he would save $500 billion a year by reforming civil service laws.

Total personnel costs for the federal government (including benefits) is about $430 billion a year which includes military and post office pay (which aren't part of the federal civil service laws).

Firing everyone in government, and the military and USPS, would leave him about $70 short of his goal.
 
658Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 14:08
More diversity you love:
Kipnapping, forced marriage, and forced conversion to Islam of Coptic Christian women in Egypt

For the past several years there have been reports of the kidnapping and forced marriage of Coptic Christian women to Muslim men in Egypt, along with their forced conversion.

Recent estimates of such kidnappings, forced marriages, and forced conversions have risen to approximately 800 cases,

Allegations of Coptic Christian women being lured into deceptive marriages by young Muslim men begin circulating in the international community as far back as the mid 1970s. As such practices became more numerous, they found their way into numerous official US Government reports including the US Department of States’ Country Reports on Human Rights Practices beginning in 2006, the International Religious Freedom Reports and, in 2010, the Annual Report on Trafficking in Persons published by the US Department of State’s Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking. Always with notable disclaimers: “The reports are allegations.” “The conversions are disputed.” “Kidnappings are categorically denied.”

In fact, these reports are not allegations nor should they be disputed. Coptic women disappear. Coptic women are forcibly converted, Oi converted under false pretenses, and Coptic women are forcibly married to Muslim men.

In November 2009, Christian Solidarity International and the Coptic Foundation for Human Rights released a report entitled, “The Disappearance, Forced Conversions and Forced Marriages of Coptic Christian Women in Egypt.” I am the principal investigator and author of this report, working closely with Nadia Ghaly, a Coptic Christian activist. Together, we interviewed women who had been abducted or lured into deceptive relationships, forcibly converted, and married often against their will. We spoke with family members who lived in fear of reprisal after the young women escaped and returned home to live. We interviewed parish priests who witnessed and documented the disappearance of many of their young female congregants and monks and nuns who provide shelter and assistance to these young women once they escaped from an abusive situation. And we talked with human rights lawyers who are petitioning for the restoration of these women’s religious identities.

One parish priest in a hrge city indicated that, in his parish alone, there were 50 cases of such instances during the previous year. One bishop whose monastery has established two safe houses for young women returning from forced marriages claims that, “We are only one monastery and 45 women live with us.”

These marriages and conversions take place under duress and frequently include abductions and physical abuse. Victims are reluctant to press charges against perpetrators for fear of reprisal. When charges have been filed, there is no documented evidence of a single conviction against the perpetrators.

Coptic women experience physical and psychological abuse both before and after their conversions and marriages.

Coptic women experience frequent physical and psychological abuse including rape, beatings, forced isolation and lack of personal freedom both before and after their marriage/ conversion. Cases of abduction, rape and physical violence are rarely filed in court.

Examples of abuse and coercion include being forced to cover their bodies and faces when they leave their homes; not being able to leave except in the company of relative or person trusted by the family; lack of access to telephones or other means of communicating with family; frequent beatings and rapes.
Yup, liberals love them some diversity. It's not being a dick when they do it.
 
659Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 14:12
B, I think Pakistan is a terrible place in many ways, as are many of the countries in the Muslim world. But unlike you, I don't blame Islam any more than I blame Christianity for the 1.5 milenia of atrocities committed in it's name prior to the development of western culture and it's dragging Christianity into a compatable version of itself along the way.

I'm confident in that perspective because, among other reasons, I personally know enough westernized devout Muslims - some of whom even call themselves Islamists - who resemble no part of the broad brush you bring here to paint them with.

A look through the history of every culture shows without question that when generations exist for whom living is harsh, unforgiving and perilous, every last aspect of life, even that which professes to deliver peace, is honed into a weapon to control others and make them suffer.

We are not so distantly removed from the days of forced conversions and Christian executions in America, and in a society and western culture that as a whole was arguably more developed than present-day Pakistan.
 
660Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 14:16
Next you are going to tell me not to be disturbed about N. Korean 'scientists' watching the poison gassing of families in glass rooms because...'well Germany was kinda sorta a christian country. And after all christianity is the real enemy.'

 
661DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 14:26
No. That's bad too. So is what was posted in 658.

Those things are also bad.

It is possible for those things to be bad, and also, simultaneously, for the bad things you are doing to them to also be bad.

Got it?
 
662sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 14:27
I thought this thread was about Gingirich? WTF does Gingrich have to do with Islam? Is Newt a closet Muslim? Is THAT, why B keeps going on and on and on and on ...
 
663Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 14:30
You could only think I might say that next by ignoring the part that I don't blame Christianity (as a philosophical belief system, anyway) for the atrocities committed in its name over the course of maybe 1500 years in Europe. I blame the tendency of men to corrupt any and every societal institution into a weapon used to attain power and control.

Christianity proved not immune. Islam is no different.
 
664Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 16:34
Well why didn't you say so? We'd have been in agreement then.
 
665Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 16:38
Only you'd still have a lot of verses in the koran to explain. It's not a corruption if it plainly encourages it.
 
666DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 17:14
Stoned any adulterers lately? Forced any rape victims to marry their rapist? Enslaved any villages that surrender to your army?

I mean, you have a lot of stuff in the Bible to explain. It's plainly encouraged.
 
667Tree
      ID: 412461516
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 17:55
When we are in a world war with them you'll understand who's being a dick.

They insist others recognize their religion's superiority or they will start killing people.

When that monument commemorating their accomplishment on 9/11 goes up they will insist that that building never be sold or used for any other purpose. They will insist their law trumps the USA's laws.

They insist we trim our freedom of speech or they will start killing people.

They insist non-muslims in their countries pay double taxes in recognition of muslim superiority.

They insist on the right to kidnap and rape as part of legitimate religious conversion and marriage mate acquisition.

In some countries they don't have a word for a black man that doesn't mean slave.

These are all egregious examples of dickishness that you would be demanding any other group lose their jobs over at a minimum.

You love those anti-american diverse dicks tho.


i am pretty sure you're talking about Conservatives here, right, just substituting "Christian" for "Muslim".

seriously though, the first one has applied to Christians throughout history.

the second one was where you lost me - let me know when that happens, and if you link to a mosque, i'll laugh at you even harder.
 
668Mith
      ID: 37838313
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 18:35
#666

Let's not ask him if he collects the foreskins of the armies he has vanquished.
 
669DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 20:51
Well, I managed to miss the rant in #648, which kinda ruins that whole "there's a difference between islamist and islamic" vibe he thought he had going.

I mean, unless they thought to ask them which they were before burning their holy book, in which case it's clearly OK. Gonna go out on a limb and say they didn't though.
 
670nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 21:18


Baldwin 648

How far out of touch with reality are you.

You site extreme, fringe elements of a religion and discuss it as if it's the norm.

I can only speak from my personal experience, having lived in a Muslim run country for 5 +years, that is controlled by a Muslim dictatorship. As well as my observation of other Muslim states that surround me.


They insist others recognize their religion's superiority or they will start killing people.

I have never heard of anyone being killed in the UAE for failing to acknowledge Muslim superiority. On the contrary the government preaches tolerance for other religions.

They insist non-muslims in their countries pay double taxes in recognition of muslim superiority.

strange, I don't pay any taxes here, ZERO.

They insist on the right to kidnap and rape as part of legitimate religious conversion and marriage mate acquisition.

You are siting what may be an extreme case in obscure backward parts of the Muslim world (if even true) as if the norm. What's happening in the backwoods of Pakistan for example is reported with shock and disdain here and this behavior would be treated as a serious criminal offense in most of the civilized Muslim world. You can't site behavior that might take place in tribal regions of Pakistan and act like it's the norm. There are still people getting stoned for adultery in Pakistan in the back, back woods, but that is the extreme element of the religion and no longer tolerated in most areas.

In some countries they don't have a word for a black man that doesn't mean slave.

Except that many Muslim countries are filled with black men. What are the specific countries you are siting? Where black men are called "slaves" specific examples please.

These are all egregious examples of dickishness that you would be demanding any other group lose their jobs over at a minimum.

They are actually examples of your hallucinations, and your loss of touch with reality. You have a profound hatred for Muslims to the point you somehow take extreme examples from the past or from obscure tribal regions and you discuss them like they are the norm.

They have no basis in reality except in a twisted mind.

Please site specific examples of where all these things are taking place with references, oh but you won't, because you can't, because they aren't taking place, except for perhaps the most backward and extreme isolated areas of the Muslim world. The mainstream Muslim world no longer practices any of this and I know from experience.

Any of my comments above are not meant to defend Saudi, Pakistan, and some extreme areas of Africa. The mainstream Muslim world has the same issues with these areas we do. They might travel to Mecca out of a sense of religious obligation, but the know the Saudis are living in a twisted past. If they didn't know this, why have they changed their own countries so much to appear 180 degrees different?



 
671Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 23:49
You site extreme, fringe elements of a religion and discuss it as if it's the norm.

All well and good if their respective governments didn't accept those actions as legal.

Your rationalization doesn't help the Coptic woman who is kidnapped, raped and forced to convert and marry her rapist.

Your rationalization doesn't help the Coptic husband who has to worry that someone will kidnap his wife and who knows the police and the courts won't do a damn thing to protect her.
 
672Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 23:53
And it's encouraged behavior in the Koran. As the Islamist world feels their oats [thanks to liberals encouraging islamist takeovers] there will be a lot more of this.

We had better become very very welcoming because there will be a mass exodus of christians from a third of the world.
 
673Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 00:01
I think the point being made above is that reliance on a holy book is a bit of a slippery slope for the overly-agressive Christian, as well. Muslims haven't been treated too well by Christians in this country. And we have enough blood on our hands as a result.

Ultimately you are the owner of only your own behavior. And behaving badly because of fears that someone else might do it before you isn't a fit with the Christian model.
 
674Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 00:42
there will be a mass exodus of christians from a third of the world.

Who cares. Save the whales!!
 
675Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 02:06
PD

No, the books have nothing in common.

Real christians act like Christ.

Real muslims act like Mohammad. And therein lies a world of difference.
 
676sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 03:29
Not true B. Mohammed, preached tolerance, patience and acceptance of others ideals. The split in Islam came about with Mohammeds passing, without having named a successor. Now exactly how you name a successor for a prophet,...well, that escapes me. But that is where the divide between the Sunni and Shiite originates. Then of course, you also have the Sufi, who as I recall from some years ago, is something of a merging between the 2 primary branches of Islam.
 
677Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 07:03
You are just blowing smoke.

Mohammad raped pillaged and plundered his way thru the middle east.

Both sunni and shia when they aren't raping pillaging and plundering, demand double taxes on christians and jews, and death to polytheists. If that's your idea of tolerance, patience and acceptance you are quite easily pleased.
 
678nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 07:27

Baldwin you are the smoke blower. You went on and on about all these things that being done by Muslims, on and on. As if it's just normal.

I asked for examples that weren't extremist and you can't come up with any. Just a vague reference about Coptics. You are all smoke and no fire Baldwin and you defame an entire peoples religion with numerous charges and then nothing to back it up.

Certainly you can find some things, because there are strange things going on all over the world, even in America, but they will be extreme examples as I suggested, not the norm.

You have nothing except a bag of lies and empty fantasies and you throw dirt at the wall and hope some will stick and no one will question you but you have nothing. Then when anyone calls you out you just rant about liberals and The Koran and Muhammad.

You have nothing Baldwin. Try building your case with facts and examples and evidence rather then made up fantasies.

Don't get me wrong. There are things happening. There are still to this day many people getting stoned to death for adultery. Buried to their neck in dirt and then people in the village throw rocks at their head until they die. But these are remote areas, uneducated, living 500 years in the past and not the norm. You want to portray everyone the same.


 
679nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 07:32

And you know anyone can play your game Baldwin...

Christians are rapist. Let me back it up with facts...

Shocking statistics are coming from a new report on rape in the Democratic Republic of Congo. More than 400,000 women were raped in a 12-month period in 2006-07, according to a new study by three public health researchers from the International Food Policy Research Institute, Stony Brook University in New York, and the World Bank.

The study, due to be published in the American Journal of Public Health in June, found that 1,152 women were raped every day during that time frame – a rate equal to 48 per hour.


Christian Rapists

The Republic of Congo is a Christian Country. 96% of the population practices Christianity. So this proves Baldwin that Christians are rapists and enjoy rape. Correct?

I could go on and on believe me.

 
680Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 08:59
and of course, if you try to paint the entire Jehovah's Witness religion with the broad brush stroke of the child molestation a few church elders have been accused of, he is quick to leap on the defense.

yet, any other religion is allowed to be portrayed as extremist because of the actions of a few.
 
681DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 09:27
I, for one, am COMPLETELY SHOCKED (!!!!!) that Boldwin's still a raging bigot, as demonstrated by his own words above. This is a startling and new revelation that I have never ever before seen on this board, and I am truly enthralled by the conversation. It's quite amazing to me that this has never before come up in conversation on here. You would have thought it would have by now. You learn something completely new and amazing every day, and I thank each and every one of you for bringing this incredible new information to light. I'm sure that your words above will at least help to enlighten him and change his mind.
 
682DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 09:31
But hey, I'm for one glad that the proprietors of this board want to let it turn into Stormfront! I think that's completely awesome to let someone spew vile hate speech on the private forum completely unfettered, it's an excellent representation of the brand that has been built! I believe this is also an excellent decision. I only look forward to the inevitable dissertations about how the Negro is an inferior race to be subjugated being allowed here under the same principles. Have you considered letting the KKK put up a banner ad on the site? That would be an excellent source of additional revenue with no reputational consequences whatsoever as well!
 
683nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 09:37


So Dwetzel you would prefer a censored forum because it's better if some people views are not allowed to be heard?

Personally I am not a fan of censorship. I live in a country where political discourse is censored and I prefer to have to listen to rhetoric I don't agree with rather then having a political forum censored.



 
684Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 10:04
Nerve...no. No. It makes a huge difference between having scriptural advocacy for rape, pillaging and looting and conversion by the sword, and the opposite.

The difference is night and day. Having scriptural license to abuse others means that even basic human conscience is no obstacle.
 
685Tree
      ID: 51219169
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 10:32
i have no issues with Baldwin posting his hate speech here, no matter how ignorant, ill-informed, and wrong it is.

every time i read it, it makes me feel like my parents raised me right, teaching me it is far better to love than hate, and that loving takes effort and education, while hatred is for the lazy and ignorant.
 
686Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 10:37
Real christians act like Christ.

Exactly. The problem is that you think Christ was only the guy who overturned tables and that nothing he said should apply to the way you interact with Muslims. Nothing.
 
687DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 12:23
"So Dwetzel you would prefer a censored forum because it's better if some people views are not allowed to be heard?"

For the same reason that it's not OK to burn crosses in front of black people's houses or tell someone you want to drive to their house and kill them on a message forum ... yes, for some narrowly defined values of "some people's views". I'm aware of the existence of a potential slippery slope, but I don't think that that totally precludes the concept.

It's also quite clearly commercially stupid, since it alienates a significant percentage of the customer base and one's advertisers become, indirectly, associated with the hate speech (see: Limbaugh, R.) -- though I concede that isn't my choice to make.
 
688Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 12:37
All in the interpretation. The vast majority of all the Christians who ever lived would tell Boldwin he's got an awful lot of it all wrong.

The license to reinterpret taken by different generations and cultures, not to mention subtle shifts which evolve into major changes in the way language is used over time is why religion is so easily corruptable.

Boldwin is so eager to believe that a handful of sinister-sounding passages in the Muslim faith were intended in the worst possible way. Anyone who has taken moment to research the context finds that the majority of Muslim scholars will show that in most cases, with the consideration of preceding or following passages, the intent is far more benign or at least much less general than B prefers to think. In many other cases, the passages aren't even from the Koran, itself.

Of course exactly the same need for understanding context is required to not make Christianity into a religion just as senselessly violent as B desires of Islam.

What I find interesting is that the majority of these Christians who demand that the most aggressively violent interpretation of Islam possible is the true identity of that faith also fall over themselves to interpret Christianity as warlike as possible. For example, Boldy will tell you that everything you need to understand about his religion is contained within 66 books and that supposed religious scholars who came along later with convoluted and contradictory interpretations are heretics.

But then he will cite people like St. Augustine, who's ideas twisted up the faith sufficiently to justify the Crusades, with such notions as that violence is righteous when committed in the name of Christ. Or he will tell you he knows for sure that what Jesus really meant in th Sermon on the Mount was that one should turn the other cheek when insulted, that you can't take that being struck about the face stuff as literally referring to actual acts of violence that we are commanded to forgive.
 
689DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 12:42
"It makes a huge difference between having scriptural advocacy for rape, pillaging and looting and conversion by the sword, and the opposite."

Let's cover looting:

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Rape:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

(Yes, that's right, punish that rapist by pairing him up with his rape victim for life).

Also rape:

When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.

Conversion by the sword:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.

Murder/conversion by the sword:

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.

Murder of kids, because their dads did something wrong -- this is just a bonus:

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.






That about sums it up. Did I miss anything? It's right there in the scripture of your holy book, advocating rape, murder, conversion by the sword. So saying yours is "the opposite" is demonstrably untrue.
 
690DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 12:45
"Of course exactly the same need for understanding context is required to not make Christianity into a religion just as senselessly violent as B desires of Islam."

Well, yeah. (Hence the point of what I crossposted, obviously).

"Boldy will tell you that everything you need to understand about his religion is contained within 66 books and that supposed religious scholars who came along later with convoluted and contradictory interpretations are heretics."

Also, well, yeah. Also hence the point of the crossposted, which are all within those 66 books. :)
 
691nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 22:27

So Dwetzel you simply made my point. Why silence a fool, when it's so much sweeter exposing his fallacies?

A burning cross on someones lawn is an act of terror, but you've just shown that words can dissolve like a slug covered in salt.

 
692DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 23:10
I admit that there's an element of "OK, this is the 893489723498792th time I've heard the same ignorant crap; no living organism can actually that be incapable of learning, can it?" seeping in.
 
693sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 23:20
I dunno DW. Harken back to the Dark Ages of Europe when the Christian Church was the political powerhouse and compare scientific advance from Europe, to those from the Muslim territories. Remember, Gallileo was prosecuted and convicted by the Church for heresy.
 
694DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 23:55
A fairly valid point. Modern technology should make even the snail's pace of learning then move up to like an opossum speed today though, and it just ain't happening.
 
695Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 18:04
I'll answer in more detail when I recover, but until then, which of those points is a biblical instruction to action for christians in the christian era?

None.

Since Israel was non-expansionary, how can they be accused of wars of religious conversion?

You can feel horrified by the war of extermination on the Amorite original inhabitants of the promised land if you like, but that was God's judgement on them for 400 year of post-partum abortions to facilitate their immoral lifestyles.
 
696sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 18:29
The Crusades, was essentially ordered by the Church and Nobels faced excommunication if they refused. Or death,m if the King called for troops and his Barons etc, declined to answer their Kings call.
 
697sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 18:29
The Crusades, was essentially ordered by the Church and Nobels faced excommunication if they refused. Or death,m if the King called for troops and his Barons etc, declined to answer their Kings call.
 
698Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 19:41
The crusades were conducted by men like these who took these unchristian oathes on behalf of their own non-christian religion.
 
699sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 19:51
The crusades, were conducted by the finest the Christian world had to offer at the time. All things in perspective to their relative times.
 
700Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 21:15
I think Boldwin doesn't understand the irony of himself calling pro-war Christians "unchristian."
 
701DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 21:38
Wiki covers this nicely:

No true Scotsman is an informal logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule.
 
702Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 22:17
The crusades, were conducted by the finest the Christian world had to offer at the time. All things in perspective to their relative times. - Sarge

Naturally you would think followers of Baphomet qualify for that ringing sobriquet.

 
703DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 22:51
Damn those followers of a sect that was founded 25 years after the Crusades (according to your link) for starting the Crusades!

Must have been Soros and his time machine again.
 
704DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 22:53
Also, shame on that Pope guy for being suckered in by a far more powerful force in the church.

Alternatively, lol Boldwin.

Alternatively, see post 701.
 
705sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 23:16
Never B, never have I seen ANYONE attempt to deny, that the Crusades were started by and encouraged by, western Christianity. Your singular attempts to rewrite history, are laughable. Truly, laughable.
 
706Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 23:29
Baldwin will defend to the death the horrors perpetuated by Christians in the name of Christianity.
 
707Mith
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 23:32
The point B refuses to acknowledge or address is that while he counters one argument after another with context about his particular version of Christianity's "true" ideals, he refuses to allow for any similar context to be applied to a religion he overtly seeks to publicly demonize.

He will tell you that historical atrocities committed in the name of religion were justified by distortions of the cannon. But he has never displayed here the slightest interest in researching the contextual intent of his favorite passages from Islamic texts. When such arguments are presented to him, he does not even bother with the courtesy of a response.

What's more bizarre to me are his contradictions in the other direction. For example, conquering Iraq and the accompanying extermination of Iraqis in the range of six to seven figures worth of human beings and whatever torture and dehuminazation and loss of innocent life that we all know will naturally come with sending thousands of young men into a war zone is accomodated just fine by certain "Just War" clauses in his version of Christianity - which were written to justiy the Christian terror of the Crusades.
 
708sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 23:36
Yes, it was a long time ago however, between the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, et al; few causes of human death and suffering can compare to what Christianity has wrought upon this world.

And FTR B? Admitting the truthfulness of that statement, in no ways compromises my faith. On the contrary, it strengthens me to fight to ensure it never happens again. But to DENY that truth, is tantamount to Irans denial of the Holocaust.
 
709Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 00:26
FTR, 706 is wrong and muddies up the argument with a point that B is happy to refute, permitting him to run away from the more valid issues called on his flawed belief-paradigm. He neither defends not denies most atrocities committed in Christ's name, he explains that if you understand the context (his version of it), you will see that it the faith was distorted to so it in the name of his religion. He has no problem blaming corrupted stewardship of his faith. Even though i'm no Christian by standard of faith, I tend to agree, at least most of the time.

The problems come when:
(1) He denies that other faiths suffer from the same type of distortions of their contextual nuances. He just wants you to believe they are inherently evil and refuses to look any further into it.
(2) He selectively permits certain amendments to the Gospel among those used by the corruptors of ChristIanity when they happen to suit the Earthly politics of his preference.
 
710Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 01:42
No reasonable person could read the precise instructions in the Koran for intimidation and military conquest so as to turn the entire world into muslim subjects.

It isn't debatable. No amount of sophistry and finesse can whittle away the specific instructions. I've shown you plenty of specifics but you studiously forget it as fast as I post it.

It isn't a later corruption of Islam, these instructions to rape, pillage, murder threaten and tax the rest of the world into subservience.

Now I'll grant you that right alongside these specific blood curdling instructions on how to subjugate a nation to Islam, you'll read a passage that says 'there is no compulsion in Islam'. Which is a bold-faced lie springing from the obvious need to clean up what is a devastating image problem, that being that other nations don't want to be raped, pillaged, murdered threatened and taxed into subservience.

And we'll just read that scripture 'no compulsion in Islam' to wishful thinkers like the MITH's of the world and they will blind themselves to the threat.
 
711sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 02:08
Context, parables, etc etc. The Koran contains many seemingly contradictory statements and directives; just as the Bible does. But MITH is spot on B, you dismiss those in the Bible and explain them away; while ignoring the same in the Koran and holding steadfastly to the extremes contained therein. Your entire position, is utterly devoid of intellectual honesty. It is nowhere to be found, in any of your "arguments".
 
712Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 10:07
That is just whopping dishonesty on your part to claim equivalence.

There are no instructions in the Bible for a christian to pick up a physical weapon. All arguments for just wars and the like do not spring from the Bible because there is no biblical support whatsoever.

There are countless requirements in the Koran for a muslim to go to war.
 
713DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 10:35
lol at all of you for bothering to have a religious debate with the cultist. I am still shocked, SHOCKED, mind you, that this conversation is going this way.
 
714Tree
      ID: 592501910
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 11:54
lol at all of you for bothering to have a religious debate with the cultist.

i wouldn't go that far.

religious zealot and Christianist? yes. Cultist? that's debatable.
 
715DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 12:00
Meh, I would go that far. When you start defending that subset of the subset of your religion to the exclusion of all else, I think the word applies.

If you'd technically prefer sectarianist, I could use that instead and it would be more accurate. It's just a pain to type.
 
716Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 12:36
It's actually a faux religious debate, because n only a small percentage of fundamentalist Christians and Muslims actually take their ancient scriptures literally in their day to day lives. Most of the conflicts are not religion-based, but geo-political based, and have been for centuries.

Boldwin conveniently ignores that almost all of what we call the Muslim world had been colonized and exploited for centuries by English, Spanish, French, Dutch, Russian and Turkish overlords. Even the US can be counted among the oppressors when you figure in our actions in the Phillipines after the Spanish-American War promoted the marginalization of Moro Muslims on Mindinao under the thumb of the Christian hierarchy in Manila, established by the Spanish.
So quit with the Muslims oppressing the Christians and Jews unless you want to fully discuss the history of the British in Pakistan, India and Malaya, the Dutch in Indonesia, the French in North Africa, and the Russians in the Caucasus, Azerbaijan, Kazahkstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Kyrgystan among others.

Fears of a Muslim march to world war based on passages from the Koran are nonsensical. Modern world wars are fought over territorial and resource issues. Internal or civil wars are usually based on class warfare and oppressive economic issues. Anyone who thinks the Arab Spring is about religion, or that Iran's three decade conflict with the west is about religion, or even the six decade conflict between Israel and its Arab neighbors is about religion, is locked into a short-sighted worldview based on self-serving arrogance concerning their belief that it's their religion that's the only true path. Most average Christians and Muslims are way more concerned with feeding their families than warring with each other theological nuances.
 
717sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 12:43
lol why do I feel like the Professor just walked into the lecture hall while we argued a philosophical point, and then embarassed every gddmn one of us with his wisdom? :/
 
718boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 14:21
Fears of a Muslim march to world war based on passages from the Koran are nonsensical.

are they? Your points are all valid but they skip over one part motivation, yes governments and leaders are driven by non-religious goals in war and always have been since the beginning of time but what is motivation of peasant in the field that will see none of these gains? Many often times this is where religion comes into play, how does a leader inspire someone to risk there lives for goals they can never enjoy in? In-general the ideas that lead people to war are nonsensical.
 
719Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 15:16
Fears of a Muslim march to world war based on passages from the Koran are nonsensical

It will be on you before you know it. The opportunity is being handed to them on a silver platter by the same people in the west who handed Iran over into the clutches of the Ayatollah.

I know why. You don't.
 
720Boldwin
      ID: 12214143
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 15:25
Boldwin conveniently ignores that almost all of what we call the Muslim world had been colonized and exploited for centuries

Where did I ever minimize this? It's just more motivation for starving and humiliated hundreds of millions who have been seething with resentment for centuries.

You don't see how very much they are in the mindset of dark ages desert raiders. You don't see the delusions of grandeur they harbor for their religion's future. You don't see how electrifying it will be to suddenly and miraculously be handed a unified califate over 1/3 of the world, a financially devastated 'great satan', more oil wealth than they know what to do with.
 
721sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 15:30
re 718...what motivates the peasant? The knoiwledge that if they dont, they will be put to death by their dictator. That pretty much assures the peasants compliance.
 
722boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 16:20
compliance and motivation are not the same thing.
 
723sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 19:26
close enough for government work. When your "leige lord" rides in and says pickup thy sword or die; he doesnt muh give a sh*t how motivated you are. He wants to see you comply.