Forum: pol
Page 3579
Subject: Occupy Wall Street


  Posted by: Khahan - [54138190] Thu, Sep 22, 2011, 17:52

Occupy Wall Street


This was pointed out to me by a friend in Northern Jersey who is going up this saturday to check things out and maybe join in the protests. I had never heard of this before and thought I'd bring it to everybody's attention. Especially since I know there is a vocal NY contingent on these boards.
 
1sarge33rd
      ID: 278472110
      Thu, Sep 22, 2011, 18:00
saw this the other day. Something akin to the Arab Spring thing, or at least thats how they are trying to tout it.
 
2weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Thu, Sep 22, 2011, 18:29
Ending capital punishment is our one demand.
Ending wealth inequality is our one demand.
Ending police intimidation is our one demand.
Ending corporate censorship is our one demand.
Ending the modern gilded age is our one demand.
Ending political corruption is our one demand.
Ending joblessness is our one demand.
Ending poverty is our one demand.
Ending health-profiteering is our one demand.
Ending American imperialism is our one demand.
Ending war is our one demand.

Someone in their organization needs to learn how to count.
#2. Is straight out of the communist manifesto.
 
3Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 22, 2011, 18:37
When wealth is concentrated into the hands of so few in this country, sometimes people are driven to extreme measures to point it out.

Truth is, Wall Street bankers, with their government bailouts, have been part of the problem and not the solution to the economic problems in this country. When the GOP is talking about ending unemployment money while bankers came through an almost criminal period with bonuses and tax breaks, the working class in this country gets a little tired of it.

So pardon if the language makes you think of The Communist Manifesto. When it fact it should make you wonder why this land of the free has continued to hand the wealthy break after break after break.
 
4sarge33rd
      ID: 278472110
      Thu, Sep 22, 2011, 18:56
You know, I get really sic of rightwing nuts saying that mentioning gross inequities in wealth distribution; is manifestly communist in nature.

Its like the investigator who says "The guilty always maintain that they are innocent". You know who ELSE does? The innocent.

Sometimes, inequity, IS inequity. Its like Pres Obama said the other day, "It isnt class warfare, its math."
 
5biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Sep 22, 2011, 19:12
Don't wake the puppets.
 
6Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 00:46
#2. Is straight out of the communist manifesto.

i guess billionaire Mark Cuban is a communist.

or, more likely, a decent human being who remembers what it was like to grow up without much money, and how the right thing to do, is give back.
 
7weykool
      ID: 58814232
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 03:15
Please show me the quote where Cuban advocates ending wealth inequality.
What made this country great was the belief in the American dream.
Despising the wealthy and trying to punish them for there success is NOT what made this country great.
There is a reason it isnt called the European Socialist dream.
It is not the job of the federal government to redistribute wealth.
We need to focus on how to make MORE rich people and keeping the American dream alive instead of focusing on eliminating rich people.
The only way you end wealth inequality is to make everyone poor.
 
8Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 03:25
I have no idea why you continue to push the fiction that people are "despising the wealthy."

Elizabeth Warren is right: No one gets wealthy on their own. And the social compact needs to be re-introduced in this country. The wealthy have gotten almost continuous breaks and the result has been wealthy concentration like never before, and companies sitting on trillions of cash reserves.

The conservative mantra has been to give the wealthy free rein to invest without interference and with much lower tax rates, and they will do so, generating wealth for all. But that has been put to the lie in the last decade or so.

It is not the job of the federal government to redistribute wealth

Actually, it kinda is. I know you hate the idea, but there it is.
 
9Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 05:31


Take a number and stand in line. Someone will be along shortly to threaten you and take your money.
 
10Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 05:32
I have no idea why you continue to push the fiction that people are "despising the wealthy."

We didn't think being eliminated was friendly.
 
11nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 06:37

Ending wealth inequality is our one demand. Is straight out of the communist manifesto.

It's a pretty broad statement that could be interpreted a number of ways.

If they literally mean everyone should make the same money then you would be right.

They may just as easily be saying it's gotten to a point in the USA where the pay scale at the top has gotten so far out of proportion compared to the people that work for them that it's becoming obscene. There are plenty rich capitalists who could agree with that interpretation. So unless your a mind reader it's hard to know specifically what they meant.

 
12Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 06:47
Alleviating or moderating doesn't work for sloganeering.

They're marxists just the same.
 
13Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 09:45
I have no problem with people on Wall Street making obscene amounts of money. I have no problem with that happening while somebody is working 2 jobs to make ends meet. The idea of equality that some want to espouse is not practical for too many reasons to get into.

However I do have a problem with how Wall Street affects our lives, our politicians, our corporations, our banks etc.

Most corporations out there these days make stockholders their #1 priority. They'll sacrifice long term goals for a short term stock return. They'll de-humanize their own work force because it saves a buck on the bottom line. They'll sacrifice customer service because the savings help the shareholders.

Why doesn't the media cover this sit-in thats been going on for weeks? Because the media is run by corporations that make money from Wall Street.

But there's so many things they all miss. There's more to life and there's more to a corporation than the bottom-line. And a lot of times those things that are missed do have an effect on the bottom line, even if indirectly.

I blame Wall Street above and beyond any politician for our current state of the economy. How many corporations have gone out of business due to the bad ecomony? And Wall Street and the need to satisfy Wall Street is not changing.

I don't agree with a lot of what this organizing says they stand for. But I can put all that aside if they can help change the culture of Wall Street. I doubt it, but at least they are trying.
 
14DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 10:21
:"Most corporations out there these days make stockholders their #1 priority. They'll sacrifice long term goals for a short term stock return. They'll de-humanize their own work force because it saves a buck on the bottom line. They'll sacrifice customer service because the savings help the shareholders."

Careful, you're about to be called a communist for suggesting that these aren't wonderful things! (I'm told the only alternatives are this utopian capitalism you describe and communism.)
 
15walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 10:29
I hear the protests from outside my office window.

Krugman nails it, IMO. and my man, Tom Morello (RATM, SSSC) will be awesome tonight on Bill Maher.
 
16Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 10:50
Re: 9 - must have taken a very dimwitted individual to edit Warren's quote to prove her point that, in fact, other people's taxes made an individual's road to prosperity possible. I'm glad that just 10 years after 9/11, that some disgusting individuals on the Right now characterizes the police and fire departments as people who want to "crack your skull if you don't pay protection money" or "who want to shut you down for violating some inane fire code."

Teachers, fire fighters, policemen, factory workers...what other middle class groups are left to attack? Maybe those selfish nurses?
 
17nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 11:03


"They're marxists just the same."

I have no doubt there are a few marxists out there marching. I was around the protest scene enough to know there are plenty of them, and they call themselves communists literally. That having been said a protest of the behavior on wall street is long over due. It doesn't take a Marxist to see we are being fleeced.

It's too bad the average American is too much of a sheep to be down there joining the chorus. They are too busy watching American Idol.






 
18Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 11:14
They wave around their words like "communist" and "marxist" like talismans--hoping to dehumanize other Americans to make it easier to hate them.

Sad that the unthinking party simply has no more ideas.
 
19walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 11:19
And "socialist." I mean, was that not one of the debate Qs last night (or maybe the previous debate): "Do you think Prez Obama is a socialist?"
 
20Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 11:23
Yeah. IRL when it comes up and people are saying such unthinking talking points handed to them by their conservative media overlords, I've taken to putting on an innocent looking face, and asking them "And this is a bad thing?"
 
21Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 11:35
Please show me the quote where Cuban advocates ending wealth inequality.

um, ok. i'm not sure you could make this easier.

The Most Patriotic Thing You Can Do

Bust your ass and get rich.

Make a boatload of money. Pay your taxes. Lots of taxes.
Hire people. Train people. Pay people. Spend money on rent, equipment, services. Pay more taxes...

...So be Patriotic. Go out there and get rich. Get so obnoxiously rich that when that tax bill comes , your first thought will be to choke on how big a check you have to write. Your 2nd thought will be “what a great problem to have”, and your 3rd should be a recognition that in paying your taxes you are helping to support millions of Americans that are not as fortunate as you.
 
22Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 11:36
More of that. Please. Just go out and re-brand the party. The American Socialist Party. Building the European Socialist Dream, here in America.

It would be at long last an honest breath. See how honesty works for once.
 
23Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 11:48
The progressive (not "socialist") history is a long and proud one, and Democrats shouldn't run from it.

Just because the Far Right can't distinguish between the two just means there is an educational opportunity there, since the GOP has fled the scene of teachability on this, preferring to hide behind their walls of hate, lobbing occasional stink bombs.

Saw a sign the other day: "Obama isn't a brown-skinned anti-war wealth redistributor. You're thinking of Jesus."
 
24boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 12:12
If all these millionaires/billionaires are so concerned about not paying enough taxes why do they not just pay more taxes? There is nothing stopping them from telling there accountants I want to pay more taxes make sure to not take any deductions.

Sounds all a bit hypocritical to me, it is easy to come out and say we should pay more taxes but to actually step up and pay more taxes, well only if force me too.
 
25Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 12:15
They can't pay more taxes. Taxes are collected by statutory authority, not by donation.
 
26boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 12:30
sure they can't, so you are telling be they are not taking any deductions? there companies are not writing off any expensives? For that matter they could report capital gains as regular income. There are plenty of ways they could pay more in taxes and it is not like they do not have accountants doing all the work for them so it is not like it would be any more work for them.
 
27Razor
      ID: 128562311
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 12:56
I'm sure you understand the difference between a personal philosophy and advocating for a tax policy change. Very little is gained from one man paying more taxes; it requires a policy shift to see any real impact.
 
28Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 12:57
#26: That's a good point. So instead of changing the tax laws to make them more fair, individual wealthy taxpayers should undermine their own interest and pay more taxes individually?

Who's to say that isn't already happening?
 
29boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 14:20
It does probably happen on some degree since I am sure many wealth individuals do not necessary take all the tax deductions they can for charitable work, but with that said I doubt there is much of it happening on any real scale or you would see people claiming they do it already instead of saying they should pay more they would be saying I already am paying more and others should join me.

I'm sure you understand the difference between a personal philosophy and advocating for a tax policy change. Very little is gained from one man paying more taxes; it requires a policy shift to see any real impact.

maybe but if you can not start with yourself then why should put any stock into what they are saying? For example why should I listen to someone who says that recycling is important and then they go off and throw their coke can in the trash instead of the recycle bin, clearly they don't believe in it enough do it themselves why should I listen to them?
 
30Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 14:25
You might be right, but to assume that people would publicly state that they are not taking all their deductions seems to be another step that night not be occurring.

Better, IMO, to simply treat income from all sources (capital gains, bonuses, payroll, etc) the same, since the wealthy (for instance) use it the same way.

There is no indication that lower capital gains taxes for individuals actually have the benefit touted, of increasing investment. In fact, I think there is a stronger argument to be made that treating capital gains as ordinary income (and therefore subject to a higher rate) would increase investment more.
 
31weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 14:40
Tree how sad you dont understand their position.
If you had bothered to read the link you would heve read:
On September 21st, 2011, the richest 400 Americans owned more wealth than half of the country's population.
Ending wealth inequality is our one demand.


That has nothing to do with paying taxes.
The fact that Cuban has more money than other Americans is what needs to be corrected.
If Cuban is a communist of their ilk then he should sell the Mavs, divest himself of all his other personal holdings and give the proceeds to those who have less money than he does.

#24 Is exactly right.
If you advocate paying more taxes while doing what you can to minimize your own taxes you are a hypocrite.
Nothing is stopping anyone from making a contibution to the Bureau of the Public Debt.


 
32Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 15:02
i have no idea what you mean with #31 and Mark Cuban. Cuban advocates paying your fair share of taxes (and not using loop holes to get out of paying them), and the more you make, the more you pay, in order to help those less fortunate.
 
33Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 15:02
from making a contibution to the Bureau of the Public Debt.

Which would go toward paying the debt only. What if you wanted your money to go toward any of the actual business of government? You can't--there is no mechanism for doing so.

Fix the tax laws instead of trying to find a workaround which doesn't exist.
 
34boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 15:49
technically if your money goes to paying only the debt it is going towards the actual business of the government because paying off it's debt is part of actual government and secondly the less the government has to pay to pay off the debt the more it can use for "actual business". Now I guess in practicality since the debt will never be zero the act of trying to pay if off could be seen as pointless act and wasteful.

Re 32: but is Mark Cuban actually doing what he preaches or is he just saying well it would be nice if did more, you know theoretically speaking.
 
35sarge33rd
      ID: 48402311
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 15:52
we dont know how much of what he COULD write off, he does. Nor does it matter, not one whit. He is liable, as are all, for paying what is legally required. His POINT, is that the law SHOULD require those with abundance, to pay and abundance and those WITH the abundance should take PRIDE in paying according to their take.

I know, the first time my IRS payment exceeded my fathers income for that year, I was HUGE proud. No, I didnt particularly "like" writing the check, but write it I did and with a very real sense of pride.
 
36boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 16:14
re 35:
whats funny is I replaced this arguement with there was preacher who said thou should not sleep with prostitutes and was then found have been with a prostitute you would decrying the fact that he was hypocrite and should not be taken serious.
 
37sarge33rd
      ID: 48402311
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 16:20
not at all. The one is a legal mandate (taxes), the other is a moral judgement. The immoral, have no right to stand upon the pulpit and preach morality. Morality, is by and large, not legally mandated.
 
38nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 16:35


Now I guess in practicality since the debt will never be zero

It will be zero when we default.

 
39boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 16:49
re 37: what are you talking about no one is breaking laws how much you pay above what you obligated to pay is completely a moral judgement. Oh and technically using a prostitute is a criminal offense, in most states.
 
40boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 16:50
re 38: I was actually going to add that but I got lazy and did not.
 
41nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 18:15

What if you wanted your money to go toward any of the actual business of government? You can't--there is no mechanism for doing so

It's a bit of a lame argument. Taxes are Taxes. And that is what Buffet is referring to. If you want to pay more you can. But I think Razor is right. One paying more is drop in bucket, would need a public mandate to make a difference.

 
42nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 10:38

Police

getting

nasty.

 
43Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 11:06
42 - There's 2 things going on in that video. The first is the guy in the altercation with the cops. We don't see what started it, just the ending. We have no idea if this guy did anything to deserve the cops putting him on the ground and arresting him or not. He certainly looks to be physically taunting the cops, but again, that is part way into their alteraction.

Then there is the group behind the orange fencing. I saw absolutely nothing that justified the cops doing anything to those people. At all.
 
44Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 15:06
Jon Stewart with some sharp criticism of the criticizers:




Love his takedown of the Foxies regarding their refusal to keep to the same standards of comparison between OSW and the Tea Party rallies.
 
46Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 20:02
Once you figure out why your cell phone gets better and cheaper every year but your public schools get more expensive and less effective, you can apply that model to answer a great many questions about public policy.



- Went to Apple



- Went to public schools

The screen is lit but no one's home.

"Yeah, he's dead but we're not done punishing him."
 
47sarge33rd
      ID: 52922613
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 20:23
no small part of the dilemma public schools face, is the deterioration of the family unit. Brought about primarily, by a disintegrating economic environment necessitating full time employment by all parents, vs a stay at home adult to be the primary care giver. (IOW the destruction of the middle class by the rich, is contributing HUGELY to our social ills)
 
48Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 20:41
And here I thot that society's abandoning all moral sense was to blame for family breakdown.

And that feminism is what forced society into two earner families.
 
49sarge33rd
      ID: 52922613
      Thu, Oct 06, 2011, 23:08
its the economy stupid...not feminism. Feminism GREW from it, when women went to work and got half the pay a guy did for doing the same job.

Trouble B is, you didnt 'think'. Not once, did you apply critical thinking skills. You merely tuned in Rush, AC or Beck and their ilk and then allowed them to tell you what to think.
 
50Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 11:54
Not once? Not even that time in Chicago?
 
51Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 12:02
Great picture of the People's Republic of China in that article about the virtues of the corporation.

I'd hazard a guess that majority of the people at Apple (and at most US companies) were educated at public schools, so they must be doing something right.

Either way, it's a brainless argument to compare the advancement of technology to public education.
 
52Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 12:35
Comparing the efficiency and competence of the private and public sectors is eminently useful.
 
53Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 12:41
Only so far. Public and private enterprises have different goals and therefore different efficiency matrices.

Better to compare the sectors to each other, with certain restrictions in place or removed.

For example, what about getting rid of competitive bids? Private sectors rarely have to deal with such a thing--does it make them more efficient or not? Sometimes bidding actually makes outflows much more efficient (and often, not).

Comparing private and public sectors merely to slam the latter is simply a misuse of your tools.
 
54Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 12:52
 
55sarge33rd
      ID: 8940711
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 12:59
ALL of the evidence points to one conclusion...a thriving middle class, is the key to national economic prosperity,

As long as we wish to establish and maintain a 2 class (poor and rich) system, then we will see ourselves falling into the 3rd world realm.
 
56Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:04

All the evidence points to the "let the rich keep as much money as they can while government borrows the difference" as being a failed strategy in virtually every sense.
 
57Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:11
Well, there are two groups that believe the notion that the rich getting richer is the only way the middle class can flourish:

- some rich people
- some gullible people
 
58sarge33rd
      ID: 8940711
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:21
re 56..You mean PD.,..selfishness as a socio-political theory is doomed?
 
59Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:23
I did...not...realize Algore built the internet in the 50's and 60's.

And when I was in the middle class the government never did anything but drag me downward.
 
60sarge33rd
      ID: 8940711
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:24
I am willing to wager heavily B, that the govt never did a damn thing to you. Not once.
 
61Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:26
Its one thing to snark. Another thing to do a bad snark.
 
62Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:35
in line with 54 and 55.

The Occupy Wall Street movement is out to focus the nation's attention on decades of increasing inequality.

Economists Thomas Picketty and Emanuel Saez sliced and diced America's income going all the way back to 1913, and their results tell us exactly what the Occupy Wall Street movement is about, at least in broad terms
 
63Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:40
What do the one percent think?



 
64sarge33rd
      ID: 8940711
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:40
You know...part of me B, thinks I may be wrong there. Perhaps the Govt DID "knock you down". Lets look at that for a min OK?

I think we are about the same age. I was born in '57.

So from roughly age 19 to 23, we had a Dem WH with Carter. Cant really lay much blame on him since we were in our very early stages of adulthood. But, we will count 4 yrs of Dem Govt.

Then, we get 12 years of rep with 2 Reagan terms and a bush I term. That takes us from mid 20s to late 30s. So its 12-4 Rep vs Dem for who the Govt is.

Then, its 8 years of Dem with Clinton. Taking us from late 30s to mid 40s. Tied, at 12-12 for yrs of ea party.

Finally, 8 years of Rep with Bush II and the financial collapse of the country.

Score? 20 yrs Rep control and the worst financial crisis in 70 years, vs 12 yrs of Dem where by ALL accounts, 8 of them saw financial growth by virtually everyone.

So B, IF your allegation has any merit to it at all, you must blame the REPUBLICAN Govt for your no longer being "middle class". I know, i know...facts svck dont they?
 
65Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:42
#60: Not true. In fact, B has the luxury of posting snarky and ill-conceived posts because of the use of tax dollars which funded, through private and university labs, the development of the internet.

Call it self-loathing, if you will, but the ability of this board to play any part in his life is a result of the spending of the federal government combined with ivory tower universities, full of liberal union members.

Background: History of the internet from wikipedia.
 
66sarge33rd
      ID: 8940711
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:44
ahhh but PD..the govt didnt do that TO B, they did that FIR him. ;) lol
 
67Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:46
Maybe. I'm thinking that without the internet, he wouldn't have the bother of dealing with all these "trolls" and "liberals."
 
68sarge33rd
      ID: 8940711
      Fri, Oct 07, 2011, 13:48
lol, point taken.
 
69Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 11:09
Yeah, sarge--every new thread means an angel falls from heaven.
 
70Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 20:55

Image via Instapundit

The Obama administration has become a house of mirrors.

Wall Street is the wicked enemy.

Geithner is Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs is everywhere in the Obama admin.

Rise up against the evil bankers!

Pay off the evil bankers!

The evil bankers must direct our economy policy or we are doomed!
- Althouse commenter
 
71Perm Dude
      ID: 4992510
      Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 20:58
If Obama is answerable to literally anything that happens or is said by "the Left" you are going to have to answer for literally anything on the Right.

Just be prepared to have the same standards applied to you that you want to apply to others.
 
72Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 21:47
What LGF learned at occupy Wall Street.
 
73sarge33rd
      ID: 58922817
      Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 22:01
House REALLY reaching here IMHO

One of the side links from MITH's link above. House republicans want to make it illegal for US Citizens to discuss/use "controlled substances" overseas ... EVEN if legal in that country.
 
74Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 22:03


Anarchists For Big Government - Facebook parody via Instapundit
 
75Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Oct 09, 2011, 22:53
Funny.

The side that romanticizes watering the tree of liberty in blood disparrages the "marxist" opposition as anarchists.
 
76Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 10, 2011, 05:48
1) Anarchist is a common self-descriptor in that OW bunch as far as I remember.

2) What's funny is anarchists for any government at all, let alone big government.

3) Your quote does not encourage anarchy, it favors self-government [and in point of historical fact, a republic] over despotism.
 
77Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 12:13
New York's Finest.

 
78Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 13:07
What is supposed to have happened Tree? Before you post pictures trying to bash the cops, at least give a little information. For all we know, this kid jumped out in front of the cop. Or this is photoshopped. Or the cop blatantly ran him over. Who knows. A picture isnt worth 1000 words. Its worth 1000 stories.

I think our men in blue deserve the respect to at least give a caption about what happened, instead of throwing them under the bus with a picture like this and leaving it up to people's imaginations.
 
79Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 13:15
Here you go, Tree. i did your research for you.

Video of a guy getting his leg run over.


Please watch this *very* closely. Rewind it, watch it multiple times. Especially the first 14 seconds. Something seems very, very off about this video.

Taken as face value its pretty bad and blatant and that cop should lose his job. But something in the video that I can't quite put my finger on is making me question the face-value of this video.
 
80Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 13:20
Triple post, I almost feel like Baldwin.

Pay attention to 6 seconds into the video. The cop appears to be at a complete stop with his brake lights on and the protestor has his foot at the front tire.

The video jumps, the crowd is in the way, the cop does not appear to have moved the bike (with perspective for this based on teh double yellow line), yet the protestor is suddenly at the back wheel.

At the end of the video, around 35 seconds or so, somebody starts saying they just stepped on his foot and another guy starts yelling, 'they ran over his f** leg.'

Personally it seems like a staged publicity stunt. Maybe they're just looking for a 'face of the protests,' the same way the Arab Spring protests had that one surreal moment where somebody was raised up as an embodiment of the people.

Or maybe I'm really over-analyzing this. Personally I thinks its staged based on that video, but I'm sure as time goes on we'll get more concrete info on this one to help evaluate it.
 
81Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 14:45
Not sure if this is what you mean by staged but it seems most likely to me that that guy did everything he could to get run over by the scooter, whether the wheel actually rolled over his leg you can't tell from that video. The writhing around definitely looks faked unless he was tear gassed.
 
82bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 16:02
Make or break for me would be whether this guy actually did suffer a broken leg. Seems unlikely that a scooter would do that, but who knows?
 
83Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 16:17
The video jumps, the crowd is in the way, the cop does not appear to have moved the bike

actually, at the 10 second mark, the bike clearly rolls forward, and i have little doubt the bike rolled over this guy's foot. and, as MITH said, the guy probably didn't bother getting out of the way.

also, that is some high level pain, or some high level dramatics. i suppose getting run over by a scooter hurts, but i don't know that it hurts at the same level being attacked by a shark or a mountain lion does.
 
84Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 16:25
Actually bibA, those cycles are few hundred pounds. Getting run over means you have the weight of the scooter plus the weight of the cop bearing down in the 2-4 sq in area that the tire is on your ankle. I'm pretty sure most legs would be fractured by that.

And tree, you're right. At the 6sec mark the front tire is at the end of the yellow line. At the 10 second mark the back tire is. Its just a flash for a split second you can see the front tire which is probably why I missed it initially.

So in 4 seconds we have the bike moving forward about 4-5 feet?

There's also an even faster flash around 5-6 seconds where the guy is on the ground, already screaming but neither foot is under the bike's front tire. I can't even freeze frame it every time I try to, but got it done once with a very clear shot.
 
85Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 18:05
So in 4 seconds we have the bike moving forward about 4-5 feet?

um, you can walk that distance in about one second.
 
86Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 18:09
Yeah, thats how slow the bike is moving. which begs the question - how did this guy get run over by the cycle?
 
87WiddleAvi
      ID: 137361215
      Fri, Oct 14, 2011, 18:30
From this article it seems like he was hit by scooter but then pretended like his leg was stuck: Scroll down below the first video

From the link New York Daily News photographer Dan Marino, who witnessed the accident, claims that Douglas was struck by the scooter but then stuck his leg under the wheel to make it appear as if he were trapped under it.
 
88C.SuperFreak
      ID: 51911511
      Sat, Oct 15, 2011, 12:02
The protesters behaviour is pathetic. His actions seem to contradict Newton's laws of motion, specifically his third law.





 
89Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 09:37
Here the co-inventor in the Cloward-Piven strategy to bankrupt America thru escalating socialist overspending leads an OW crowd:



Obviously her plan to destroy America has been working brilliantly.
 
90sarge33rd
      ID: 199191610
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 11:43
yeah B. I'm certain that concentrating 40% of the nations wealth in the hands of 1% of the population, along with bankrupting huge nrs of people and putting them out of work...were all part of the grand scheme.
 
91Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 12:06
 
92Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 12:54
no problem with acknowledging that most US politicians are part of the one percent.

what's your point?
 
93Boikin roaming
      ID: 237522111
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 13:27
I think his point is that when politicians act like they care they are only saying what they need to say to stay in power.

The protest are irrelevant there will always be a top 1% and they will control a disportionate amount of the wealth/power. You have two choices just except it or try and use it to your advantage. There is only one way to end this system and that is to go back to small town rural society and I don't see that happening. You make a deal with devil when you aggregate into cites and states and that is that you trade equality for easy of life.
 
94Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 17:22
See what you don't understand is that they are perfectly ok with a rich class, they just want to make sure it's PC democratic party elite only, rich class. As long as everyone else is poor they are happy.
 
95sarge33rd
      ID: 239581616
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 17:58
94...perfect definition, description....of todays GOP.

Nicely done B.
 
96biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 10:02
Boikin - I'm interested in why you think an agrarian society would, but it's nature, have less a disparity in income.
 
97boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 10:19
because Marx told me or at least reading him did. I would also include watching stories on tribes in the Amazon, but that would be more of hunter/gather society. So maybe more accurately you would have to go back even farther. At the point when you have carry everything you own the ability to accumulate wealth is deeply hampered. When I was saying pre city/states I was referring to time when the ability to store food had not been invented.
 
98Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 11:08
#94
The plural pronoun "they" is used 3 times in those two sentences.

This is really an example of class warfare, when divisions of "us" and "them" are thrust upon society, when there's really only "us."

The Occupy Wall Street movement and the Tea Party movement share this similiarity more than any other trait. Both are hugely invested in class warfare.

There's truth that Obama is perfectly ok with a rich class and just wants to make sure it's a PC democratic party elite only, rich class. But the same can be said for Herman Cain on the Republican side, and the Tea Party can shrug at accusations of class warfare because, hey, he's black. But Cain is just as guilty of an "us" and "them" mentality as Obama.
 
99Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 11:30
I actually think there is a greater link between the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street crowds - they both recognized that being middle class in America isn't as great as it used to be. The Tea Party thinks it's because they are taxed too much and don't get to keep enough of their money. The Occupy Wall Street crowd thinks it's because jobs are scarcer and don't pay as well. The presumed causes are different, but the underlying sentiment is the same - middle class Americans have it tough these days and something has to change.
 
100boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 11:45
they both recognized that being middle class in America isn't as great as it used to be.

but that is complete Myth, are you telling me that anyone is will to give up what they have now to live in past version of America?

That is what both the tea party and OWS people have in common is that they both believe in myth of what things use to be like.
 
101Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 12:44
Liberal Journ-O-lists hand OWS their script and then report it as straight news.
Someone has made the emails from the Occupy Wall Street email distro public and searchable. The names in the list are a veritable who’s who in media.
-------
MSNBC’s Ratigan...instructing occupiers on how properly to present their demands and messages while simultaneously appearing on television reporting “objectively” on the story.
A) How much more faked astroturf can you get?

B) Tell me again the MSM isn't liberal propaganda.
 
102sarge33rd
      ID: 589451711
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 12:46
wrong boikin. They both recognize that without a healthy middle class, you have 2 classes..they haves and the have nots. No middle ground, no middle class, no economic growth, but stagnation. Look at SA in the 1960s and 1970s, Mexico even today....2 economic classes.
 
103Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 14:35
but that is complete Myth, are you telling me that anyone is will to give up what they have now to live in past version of America?

i'd love to turn the clock back, no question.
 
105sarge33rd
      ID: 589451711
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 14:38
btw, SA in 102 refers to S America
 
106boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 14:38
SA? San Antonio

Sarge clearly you do not travel much or you would realize you so called "have nots" have it really really good. There is no point in even having this discussion, clearly you will just over simplify the subject and just assume that because you see something you know what causes it, Instead how about this question:

Let me ask this question what does the typical 1%er look like? do you know any? Do you think they earned there money dishonestly?
 
107sarge33rd
      ID: 589451711
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 14:52
The typical 1%, inherited their money boikin. The luck of the genetic lottery, is why they and not another, has that wealth.

And talk of over simplification??? Your assertion that any change back means going ALL the way back to pre-civilization, is an absolutely ABSURD over simplification which you are correct, removes any further need for discussion.
 
108boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 15:24
Well you are right about one thing they won the genetic lottery, there were born gifted. Most made there money the old fashioned way they got into high paying occupations: doctors, lawyers, engineers, small business. Yes, some did inherited it but not the majority. now if you are talking about the top .1% that is completely different.

what I said was that there is that you can not change imbalances in wealth with out going back to stone age. That is not an over simplification. I don't think you would read the 500 pages it would take to explain why that is true and that is basic problem here is that everyone wants a simple answer, an escape goat, to complex problems.

there is no actual relationship between wealth disparity and growth. inequality vs GDP higher gini more fair.
 
109Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 16:39
We can't change the imbalance without going to the "stone age"? Are you aware of how much wider the imbalance has gotten over just the last couple of decades?

This isn't about whether they made their money "dishonestly" (which, at best, is a misleading term). This is about whether the very wealthy in this country should continue to pay relatively small amounts of their income to support a system which is skewed to their benefit.
 
110boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 16:54
PD what is an acceptable amount of imbalance for you? Of course you can make it less or more "fair" but the overall dynamics will not change the majority of the wealth/power will be concentrated in the few.

 
111sarge33rd
      ID: 589451711
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 17:23
just for the record boikin, there isnt a Dr. (medical) in the country, in the top 1%. There MIGHT be, 2 or 3 lawyers (practicing law that is).

Bill Gates, made his money the old fashioned way. Via the tort courts in the 1970s and 1980s. He's in that 1% category. I doubt, you'd find but only a very, very few professional athletes in the top 1%.

What will you find there? Former Congressman, CEOs, some Sr Wall Streeters and oodles and oodles of inherited monies.
 
112Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 17:28
Sarge, you are way, way off. The top 1% begins at merely $380,000. I'd guess a good 20-40% of physicians make that much and some that make as much as 10x that. Lawyers? A smaller percentage of lawyers make that much but that's only because there way more lawyers. There are more lawyers that make that much money than physicians. Same with people in business.
 
113sarge33rd
      ID: 589451711
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 17:39
I'd have put the top 1%, well above 380k......my bad there.
 
114weykool
      ID: 499141718
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 19:15
380K?
Which 1% are we talking about here?
The top 1% of income earners for the year or the top 1% of accumulated wealth?
I believe the 380K relates to the top 1% of tax returns.
Im sure there is a large overlap between the two lists but there are also differences.

Sarge where do you get this garbage that most of the wealthy inherit their money?
Is there an actual site feeding you this misinformation or are you just making shyt up and hoping nobody calls you on it?
 
115sarge33rd
      ID: 589451711
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 20:15
Observation WK. I know a LOT of truly wealthy people. I know only a very few, who werent born into it.

3rd/4th generation owners of 17 car lots for ex;
4th generation contractor/developers,
6th and 7th generation ranchers,
sons and daughters who inherit the company from dad, who got it from grandpa;

why WK, would you even bother denying the truth?
 
116Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 20:53
Top 10 Richest in America (2011, Forbes):

1. Bill Gates - self-made - liberal
2. Warren Buffett - self-made - liberal
3. Larry Ellison - self-made - liberal
4. C. Koch - inherited - conservative
5. D. Koch - inherited - conservative
6. C. Walton - inherited - ?
7. George Soros - self-made - liberal
8. Sheldon Adelson - self-made - conservative
9. J. Walton - inherited - ?
10. A. Walton - inherited - conservative
 
117Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 21:04
Sarge, you are providing anecdotal evidence, I could just as easily say that I know X number of "rich" people that are self-made.

Just because someone was born rich, doesn't mean that they didn't work hard. Bill Gates was born rich, his grandfather founded a bank in the Seattle area. I doubt that anyone would argue that Bill Gates didn't work for the vast, vast majority of his wealth. The same could probably be said for some of the ranchers that you know. Yes, the farm has been in their family for generations, but I would be willing to bet that many (not all) of them have worked to hard to keep their farm running or growing.
 
118Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 21:07
Keeping your wealth is hard work.
 
119Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 23:26
#110: We know that wealth concentration inhibits economic growth (no surprise--growth requires capital movement and when it is in fewer hands it moves around less). So the question becomes: How much should we inhibit growth?

Between 1983 and 2004, of all the new financial wealth created, 42% went to the top 1% (source)

So how concentrated is too concentrated? The entire conservative economic philosophy requires two things to be true: That the wealthy are freer to invest (freer from regulation, taxation, etc) and that the growth they generate brings up others with them. But actual economic response to the wealthy getting what they want is the opposite of that: less growth and more concentration of wealth among those who already have it.
 
120Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 00:08
PD

Admittedly there is something different between someone who gets rich bundling bad mortgages into triple-A securities...

...or someone picking losers [maybe even kicking them down the stairs] and selling them short...

...instead of say, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, The guy who discovered the Bakken oil field. The guy who invents the next battery technology. The guy who makes a quantum leap in solar power tech.

Plenty of rich guys spread the wealth to countless people without having to have been chewed up and squeezed dry by the government.
 
121Razor
      ID: 09441723
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 00:44
You're the king of answering the wrong question. PD mentioned nothing of how ethically the wealth is accumulated.

But I'll answer your nonsensical tangent: the US has 4 times as many millionaires and 5 times as many billionaires as any country on the planet. It doesn't appear the US government is standing in the way of prosperity no matter what Rush Limbaugh, a near billionaire himself, tells you.
 
122Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 00:49
Razor

Pd brought up the phrase "the growth they generate brings up others with them." and I'm not talking ethics. I am talking about paper profits that only make one person rich and inject leverage and risk into the system vs wealth creation that is a friend to everyone.
 
123sarge33rd
      ID: 589451711
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 02:22
how quickly people forgive/forget. Bill Gates, made his money, by filing suit against anybody and everybody. he stole windows from Steve Jobs, after spending a summer working with him at Apple and seeing the GUI Apple was developing. Dont hold him up as a shining example. He's an ass from the get go.
 
124Frick
      ID: 387512315
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 08:27
Sarge, do you have an source that states that Gates ever worked at Apple? The reason I ask is Gates and Paul Allen founded Microsoft, with Gates as CEO, in 1975. Apple was formed in 1976. I agree that Gates has had some questionable business practices, but Gates is also brilliant and spent most of his childhood learning computer languages, at a time when very few people even knew what a computer was. I'm not sure how much you follow technology, but their is a long precedent for every hardware and software company to sue each other.

Re: 119 second article

There are some decent points in the article, but as a society, is everyone better off now then they were previously? Is the standard of living for everyone better or worse than it has been in the past? I would argue that it is better.

The chart of wealth distribution of other countries is a nice job of spinning facts. Showing the US versus, arguably, the most socialist countries in the world paints the US in a specific light. Let's see a graph of every country, or for a better view only developed countries.
 
125 SH
      ID: 599401216
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 08:47
Most wealth in this country is 1st generation. 2nd and 3rd generations may sustain it but very few ever grow it like their ancestor. Some may learn how to handle money from past generations but again very few learn the lesson.

I manage peoples money for a living and I own gov't subsidized apartments. More of my tenants have big screen TVs than my multimillionaire clients. More tenants have smart phones than clients. Its what you do with your money.

Most of my clients made their own money. The ones that inherit it - spend it.

Level everyone out with income and wealth and that top 1% that earned it will have it all back and more in 20 years. The wealthy that inherited it won't have theirs anymore.
 
126biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 09:14
Some interesting stats in fun graphics.
 
127weykool
      ID: 499141718
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 10:52
Excellent graph Bili.
I have read other statistics that support your data.
It completely debunks the "Rich get richer and poor get poorer".
According to the data almost half of the rich got poorer while almost half of the poor got richer.
 
128Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 11:03
*roll*

No, Bill Gates never worked for Apple. He was a software vendor for Altair and then IBM.

GUI as we know it was invented at the Stanford Research Institute and Gates and Job probably never even saw it until it was demonstrated on Xerox PARC computers.

These ideas are just 'out there' and it is very very tricky to assign credit, especially sole credit. Look at the tremendous battle between Samsung and Apple over smartphone patents. It's not even a good guy/bad guy thing. China is far worse every day than the intellectual property rights theft you find here in the USA.

It does happen of course. I daily drive past the quite nice house of the guy who invented the socket wrench which ejects sockets. Profits from which he had to sue Sears/Craftsmen to retrieve.
 
129Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 11:22
A more detailed account of how the GUI idea spread.
 
130sarge33rd
      ID: 32951812
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 13:05
I didnt say Gates worked FIR Apple, I said, he worked WITH Jobs AT Apple for a short time. I'll try and find it but it has been MANY years.

Gates didnt write DOS and he didnt know anyone who COULD write DOS. He signed a contract with IBM, to provide DFOS for a home based PC. Gates DID know, a fella who knew a guy who HAD written a DOS but didnt know what to do with it. Gates bought that, for 25k and MS was born.
 
131sarge33rd
      ID: 32951812
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 13:22
my bad, Gates bought Q-DOS for 50k, not 25k

link

 
132Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 13:33
Well since he was an early vendor maybe he made an offer to cooperate on something for Jobs but it isn't anywhere on Gate's biography and I would think a detail like that would be pretty interesting and hard to leave out of the story.
 
133sarge33rd
      ID: 32951812
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 15:25
Jobs took a strong dislike to Gates which lasted for years. Because Gates saw the GUI Apple was working on for its Mac and then he (Gates) did Windows after that.

What Gates was/is; ruthless and a master of marketing. He managed to foist a buggy, inferior OS (Windows) to replace his far superior OS DOS. Why? Because DOS looked "arcane" and difficult. It would moist likely have precluded the home PC from becoming as user friendly as it needed to become, to appeal to the masses. Every windows incarnation prior to Win95, wasnt even an OS. It was a pretty menu shell, that ran within DOS. Win95, was the first windows OS.
 
134sarge33rd
      ID: 32951812
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 15:39
get and watch this made for TV docudrama on Apple/Jobs and MS/Gates. It was extremely well done and highly accurate.

Pirates of Silicon Valley
 
135boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 16:22
re 133, i think Win95 also ran on DOS, I did not think DOS got ditched till win 2000.

Jobs and Gates were both genius in Marketing. There styles were just different.
 
136biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 18:15
Lemony-Snicket's take on Occupy WallStreet.

In case you have kids who are starting to ask WTF.

They don't all ring perfectly true, but I especially liked this one:

3. Money is like a child—rarely unaccompanied. When it disappears, look to those who were supposed to be keeping an eye on it while you were at the grocery store. You might also look for someone who has a lot of extra children sitting around, with long, suspicious explanations for how they got there.
 
137Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 18:39
Let's be more precise. They are approximately the 99% minus the 53%.
 
138Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 18:41
Well and that's even too generous. Because not every struggling person wants to see a violent revolution.
 
140sarge33rd
      ID: 32951812
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 19:41
retracted my 139. Suddenly the "memory" flashed thru that perhaps boikin you are correct and it was Win98, not Win95...which was the first stand alone, non DOS OS from MS.
 
141Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 09:37
A funny thing happened on the way to the class war.

A class war broke out.
 
142biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 09:45
That's kinda of funny, I must admit. Reminds me of my sister trying to organize anarchists.

I'm like "They're anarchists...", and she looks at me, like "so...?".
 
143Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 10:28
a look at the Occupy movement in North Texas.
 
144Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 13:03
 
145Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 16:50
 
146sarge33rd
      ID: 309182411
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 17:54
THIS, is what OWS is protesting:

In 2006, Merrill Lynch had record earnings of $7.5 billion and the firm gave $5 billion to $6 billion in bonuses in that year. A 20-something analyst with a base salary of $130,000 received a bonus of $250,000, and a 30-something trader with a $180,000 salary got $5 million. Dow Kim, executive vice president, received a $35 million bonus whereas his salary was only $350,000.

link
 
147Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:36
OWS Bought and paid protest:
The former New York office for ACORN, the disbanded community activist group, is playing a key role in the self-proclaimed “leaderless” Occupy Wall Street movement, organizing “guerrilla” protest events and hiring door-to-door canvassers to collect money under the banner of various causes while spending it on protest-related activities, sources tell FoxNews.com.

The former director of New York ACORN, Jon Kest, and his top aides are now busy working at protest events for New York Communities for Change (NYCC). That organization was created in late 2009 when some ACORN offices disbanded and reorganized under new names after undercover video exposes prompted Congress to cut off federal funds.

NYCC’s connection to ACORN isn’t a tenuous one: It works from the former ACORN offices in Brooklyn, uses old ACORN office stationery, employs much of the old ACORN staff and, according to several sources, engages in some of the old organization’s controversial techniques to raise money, interest and awareness for the protests.

Sources said NYCC has hired about 100 former ACORN-affiliated staff members from other cities – paying some of them $100 a day - to attend and support Occupy Wall Street. Dozens of New York homeless people recruited from shelters are also being paid to support the protests, at the rate of $10 an hour, the sources said.

At least some of those hired are being used as door-to-door canvassers to collect money that’s used to support the protests.

Sources said cash donations collected by NYCC on behalf of some unions and various causes are being pooled and spent on Occupy Wall Street. The money is used to buy supplies, pay staff and cover travel expenses for the ex-ACORN members brought to New York for the protests.

In one such case, sources said, NYCC staff members collected cash donations for what they were told was a United Federation of Teachers fundraising drive, but the money was diverted to the protests.

Sources who participated in the teachers union campaign said NYCC supervisors gave them the addresses of union members and told them to go knock on their doors and ask for contributions—and did not mention that the money would go toward Occupy Wall Street expenses. One source said the campaign raked in about $5,000.

Current staff members at NYCC told FoxNews.com the union fundraising drive was called off abruptly last week, and they were told NYCC should not have been raising money for the union at all.

Another source, who said she was hired from a homeless shelter, said she was first sent to the protests before being deployed to Central Islip, Long Island, to canvass for a campaign against home foreclosures.

“I went to the protests every day for two weeks and made $10 an hour. They made me carry NYCC signs and big orange banners that say NYCC in white letters. About 50 others were hired around my time to go to the protests. We went to protests in and around Zuccotti Park, then to the big Times Square protest,” she said.

“But now they have me canvassing on Long Island for money, so I get the money and then the money is being used for Occupy Wall Street—to pay for all of it, for supplies, food, transportation, salaries, for everything ... all that money is going to pay for the protests downtown and that’s just messed up. It’s just wrong.” - JamieWearingFool
Who could have predicted it?
 
148sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:37
There are SO many similarities behind the CORE of ea TP and OWS. It is actually comical as hell to be able to see that, while both sides deny the truth of it.
 
149nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 15:09

Baldwin you proved nothing. Even if everything you say is true, it's just a fraction of the people there. Are you doubting that there are many, many people there on there own? I have a friend who has been there almost every day since the beginning, he's not being "paid" and he has nothing to do with Acorn.

 
150walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 15:31
They are right down the block from me, and they are from all walks of life (no pun).
 
151Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 15:42
Nerve

As if there was any doubt, I proved once again it is as spontaneous as a doctor's appointment.

Yes random people also come down to the carnival.

Yes there is a tiny tiny overlap between the TP and the OWS. Obama is desperately hoping he can siphon some energy off from the TP of course.
 
152sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 15:43
yes B, there is huge doubt. In truth, you proved nothing, as Nerve and walk both indicated.
 
153Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 16:21
As if there was any doubt, I proved once again it is as spontaneous as a doctor's appointment.

You've proven once again that your arrogance precludes you from engaging in the marketplace of ideas.

 
154walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 16:43
I guess if you go to the doctor for forty straight days, and for some, sleep at the doctor's office for week's on end...or maybe you're confusing that with the folks who do that in the hospital, cos they have no insurance, which could be solved by national insurance. Bam!
 
155Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 18:49
BTW, Tea Partiers don't take craps on police cars.
 
156sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 18:55
and FTR OWS doesnt take guns and signs threatening the President, to where he is speaking.
 
157Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 19:35
Ban on flag poles lifted for Tax Day tea party

Because you can trust them to be responsible with weapons.

This guy...not so much.

 
158sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 19:48
sooooooooooooooo you do not feel we should blast Christianity for ex, because of the few who would bomb a Drs office over abortion; but you feel justified in blasting the entire OWS movement by the actions of a few?

Do I essentially have that correct, hypocrit-Boldwin?
 
159Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 20:01
You are free to present your evidence that OWS protesters are as trustworthy and responsible as Tea Party protesters.

Have fun researching that one.
 
160Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 20:20
Sarge will like this one. [Really, no sarcasm]
It is in the interests of the manipulators to split the U.S. population into competing groups along a mostly phony left-right axis and steer it into voting for their candidates -- almost none of whom offers real change. If the electorate is kept off-balance fighting each other, then it won't be fighting the real threats to freedom in this country -- theFederal Reserve , the NWO, Agenda 21, and the United Nations. If the political establishment that runs this country is terrified of anything, it is the possibility of an alliance between Tea Party types and OWS.

It must start with individual visits to Zuccotti Park.
 
161sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 21:05
I tend to agree with the gist if that statement, however I can not support one who would do away with DoE, Dpt of int, etc etc.
 
162sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 21:22
The mere fact that these OWS protests have not resulted in massive public damage (ala R King riots), or even approached the status of riot...serves as the very proof you would seek/deny B.

Truly, you have become like a recalcitrant child.
 
163walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 10:58
#159, you just have to go over there and see for yourself. If you cannot do that, cos you do not live nearby, the really, STFU. [And for what it's worth, they're protesting my current and former organizations.]
 
164Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 15:10
Clearly the biggest threat to safety and order at the many OWS sites is the police themselves.

In Oakland, the blowback from a veteran who was critically wounded by police in their "cleanup" of the site is just getting going.

You can post all the goofy pictures and videos you want. What you won't get are the kind of rowdy free-for-all's that the conservative media is painting the protests as being. You can only nibble around the edges, finding goofballs, attention seekers, and anarchists in the hopes that this will somehow all go away.

The fact that the protests are complicated doesn't make them chaos.

Meanwhile, clueless conservatives continue to call on the unionized police to bust up protests about wealth inequality. The privileged shouting insults from their buildings at protests really doesn't have a good track record, historically.
 
165Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 15:23
 
166Wilmer McLean
      ID: 2899151
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 17:16
Occupy Oakland 10/25/11 - Chronological footage




Uploaded by EHW505 on Oct 26, 2011

Footage from the October 25th Occupy Oakland evening march and protest from the beginning of the march at the public library on 14th through to about 10pm at 14th and Broadway.

This footage is just a collection of raw video clips I managed to capture and threw together in chronological order. For some context:

The march moved through downtown, starting a little after 4pm. Before long an arrest attempt was made and protestors reacted by surrounding the arresting officers - apparently some ended up getting paint thrown at them. At that point police released the first tear gas.

The march then moved past that area and to the plaza where the Occupy Oakland participants were evicted earlier in the day. After being threatened with "chemical agents" and arrest, the march moved past the plaza to Snow Park where a general assembly was formed. The group opted to go back to the plaza, where they stayed until being dispersed by a barrage of tear gas, rubber bullets, etc.

The group again reconvened and moved through the streets, to re-approach the plaza. The footage stops shortly thereafter, but at least a few more rounds of tear gas were fired on the crowd before most of the protesters left for the night - I believe the protests lasted until after midnight on this day.


1:20 Mark -- Arrest attempt? And the police and protestors' confrontation.

1:25 Mark -- Tear Gas

1:52 Mark -- Possible debris from the police and protestors' confrontation, bottles and splattered paint.

3:00 Mark -- Police warning -- "...this has been declared an unlawful assembly subject to removal by force if necessary which may result in serious injury..."

4:53 Mark -- Police warning repeated.

6:06 Mark -- Tear gas

7:40 Mark -- Police message to protestors -- (?) "...the plaza crowd dispersal east is available down on 15th Street to you now. You must leave now." (?)


-------------------------------------------------

Occupy Oakland Protesters Surround and Attack Police With Paint Bombs



Uploaded by DiSaStaCaPiTaLisM on Oct 26, 2011
 
167sarge33rd
      ID: 2992712
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 17:36
who ever ordered the tear gassing, needs be held accountable for the ensuing fiasco. People 1/2 block+ from the front, can not tell what is being said/done at the front. This leads to mass confusion/panic, when the sh*t hits the fan so to speak.

The protestors were not causing public damage, mayhem or disturbance. Traffic, could have simply been rerouted around the impacted area.

This assembly, deemed suddenly unlawful; is no different from those in Syria which Syria deems unlawful, yet we applaud those protestors courage.

Why the difference in opinion when the protests are here at home? Or are we as a nation, THAT hypocritical?
 
168Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 17:37
Hey, Wilmer, glad to see you coming around. Those were some excellent videos, decent footage of peaceful protestors making their grievances known. The only conclusions that could be drawn form these movies is that the people being jostled by police were quite patient. I think you may have mislabeled the second piece, didn't see any attacking or paint bombs.

Have you joined a local "Occupy" group or are you just supporting the movement on the web? Have you visited a "occupy" site? I went to the Occupy Seattle site at Westlake Park on October 15th and the place was pretty dead at 10:00am but really vibrant and exciting at 6pm. I live too far away to be a regular part of it, though I have friends who have camped out and others who have reported about it in the press. The crowds are much smaller than the anti-Iraq invasion protests in 2003, but they are still important.
 
169Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 17:39
Word is that the Oakland police violated their own regulations in the use of bean bags, tear gas, and so on.

Wonder if the fact that the mayor was out of town at the time had any part of the decision.
 
170Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 17:41
 
171Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 18:01
Yeah, it's gotta be called a police riot because revolutionary violence doesn't count.
 
172sarge33rd
      ID: 2992712
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 18:01
The powers that be, (just as in the Middle East), feel the need to "protect" their own.
 
173Wilmer McLean
      ID: 2899151
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 18:14
RE 168:

I think you may have mislabeled the second piece...

DiSaStaCaPiTaLisM labeled the video.

Also, there seems to be some Alanis Morisette-like irony having diarrheic city Hawks mostly finding the helmeted. ;)
 
174Wilmer McLean
      ID: 2899151
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 18:20
RE 173:

Alanis Morisette...

It's Alanis Morissette!

;)
 
175Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 18:24
What's this then? Is the violence spreading?
Bureaucrats kill Rhinos
Wow!

Yeah, I read it.

Boldwin's TP/OWS official theme music: 'Unrest'
 
176Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 18:27
...because revolutionary violence doesn't count

For your reference, it doesn't "count" if it doesn't, in fact, exist.
 
177Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 18:57
Apparently the Oakland PD cleared out the protesters by petting kittens.
 
178sarge33rd
      ID: 2992712
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 19:23
In her defense, when she says, Even though the story, written later in the evening, included information about the arrests and tear gas, no news images had moved by our production deadline, probably because Oakland is on Pacific time--a three-hour difference., there is more than a little validity to that. I may NEVER, get used to Monday Night Football being on at 6 or Sun games starting at 10 a.m.
 
179Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 19:30
Somewhere there is an optimistic revolutionary keeping notes for his 'Revolution Memoirs' who just entered:
First shot of the revolution; Oakland. 'The battle of the frog lickers vs the kitten petters.'
 
180Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 20:02
OWS announcement:
For three days beginning tomorrow, the cooks will serve only brown rice and other spartan grub instead of the usual menu of organic chicken and vegetables, spaghetti bolognese, and roasted beet and sheep’s-milk-cheese salad.

They will also provide directions to local soup kitchens for the vagrants, criminals and other freeloaders who have been descending on Zuccotti Park in increasing numbers every day. - NYP via Gateway Pundit
The nerve of those homeless people taking yer stuff just because you have more than they do!
 
181Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 20:04
I know you've got your fingers crossed that the hippies will start some violence. But you have to stop confusing "my hoped for future" with "the present."

I will say that a large group of belligerent loudmouth protesters with guns would worry me. Oh wait, we had that already, didn't we?
 
182Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 20:55
You mean these guys?
 
183sarge33rd
      ID: 2992712
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 01:54
Injured Vet has very good day job

They arent all unemployed and looking for a handout, regardless what the "rightwing mouth pieces" have to say,
 
184Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 02:55
Yeah, I know.
 
185Wilmer McLean
      ID: 2899151
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 06:15
RE 170

Legal Permits, Restricted Areas and Curfews can be determinants. Also, local governments may favor one or the other. (Tea Party or Occupy)

Tea party groups say cities favor Occupy protesters; Va. group wants $8,000 returned (Washington Post -- By Associated Press, Published: October 27)

Tea party activists on Thursday accused officials in at least four cities of giving preferential treatment to anti-Wall Street protesters, and one group in Richmond is asking the city to repay $8,000 spent for permits and other needs.

In addition to Richmond and Charlottesville, Va., tea party groups in Washington and Atlanta said Occupy protesters have openly defied police and local officials without consequence. A national tea party coordinator echoed those claims.

“If you’re law-abiding citizens, they’re going to make you follow every bit and letter of the law,” said Mark Meckler, national coordinator and co-founder of Tea Party Patriots. “What we’re talking about is selective enforcement of the law.”

Officials in those cities have denied accusations of favoritism, and authorities in other cities say they have had no such complaints. Pittsburgh officials said permits for events related to the First Amendment are routinely issued for free, and groups must provide their own portable sanitation. In Denver, Occupy protesters sleep on the sidewalk, which is legal in the city. And in Philadelphia, Occupy Philly organizers are going to be billed for expenses including electricity and portable toilets.

The tea party groups’ claims also come on the heels of mass arrests and shows of force in Atlanta and Oakland, Calif. In Atlanta, police in riot gear recently arrested more than 50 people who had been camped out in a city park. In Oakland, police clashes with protesters left an Iraq war veteran in critical condition with a skull fracture.

The Richmond Tea Party said Mayor Dwight C. Jones’ administration sought permit fees, portable toilets and other demands for their events, but has given Occupy Richmond a free pass. The occupation has grown to a tent city, with a makeshift library, a volleyball net and a row of portable toilets. Jones has said that because he is a product of the civil rights movement he has allowed the Occupy protesters to remain since Oct. 17.

“He’s sympathizing with them,” said Colleen Owens, a spokeswoman for the Richmond Tea Party. “We would never, as a tea party, have gotten away with not complying with the law.”

Tea party organizers had to buy liability insurance, hire police and emergency personnel and even keep a defibrillator on site, Owens said.

The mayor declined to answer questions from The Associated Press on Thursday afternoon during a visit to the city’s crumbling Kanawha Plaza. A spokeswoman, Tammy D. Hawley, said the tea party groups had not contacted the city about the bills for their rallies.

Jones told the protesters that he understands their demonstration but that he ultimately will have to enforce the city’s laws, Hawley said.

Brendan Steinhauser, director of campaigns for FreedomWorks and a lead organizer of a massive tea party rally in September 2009 on the National Mall in Washington, said the group was careful to follow National Park Service rules — for example, providing one portable toilet for every 300 people and ensuring that 20 percent of toilets are wheelchair-accessible. By contrast, participants in two separate Occupy demonstrations in Washington are openly camping on park service property, which is against regulations.

“We basically did what they asked, stayed where they told us,” Steinhauser said. “We follow all these rules and we’re happy to do that. But there is sort of a double standard in the way that we were treated and the way that these guys are treated.”

The complaints underscore the difference in philosophy and approach between the two movements.

“We would never break the law,” said Owens, of the Richmond tea party.

By contrast, the Occupy Richmond activists settled in the small grass-and-concrete plaza within the shadow of the Federal Reserve Bank high-rise after a march from the campus of Virginia Commonwealth University.

“I think the difference is, we just came in and we did it,” said Ira Birch, 23, a student at VCU who camps at the park after her classes. “We don’t have the money to pay to the city, and that’s one of the reasons we’re here because we don’t have that kind of money.”

Veteran political and anti-war activist Tom Hayden scoffed at the tea party complaints and said Occupy protesters in Los Angeles plan to reseed lawns where they have camped.

“The occupiers are committing a form of civil disobedience by occupying public squares, parks and lawns,” he said. “They are not seeking a permit, which would cost you money in the first place.


-------------------------------------------------


Tea Party vs Occupy: Are Cities Guilty of Double-Standard? -- Todd Starnes -- Fox News Radio with reporting from the Associated Press -- Oct 27, 2011

Tea Party groups across the nation are accusing local and state governments of a double standard – charging them fees to hold rallies in public parks, while allowing Occupy protesters to set up camp for free.

“I find it extremely frustrating and upsetting,” said Colleen Owens, a spokesperson for the Richmond Tea Party. “It is definitely a slap in the face.”

Owens is demanding a refund of about $10,000 from the city of Richmond, claiming her group was charged for rallies at Kanawha Plaza but the Occupy protesters have not been charged.

“We’ve had to pay for the police, the sanitation, we had to pay for emergency personnel, and we event had to buy a $1 million liability policy,” Owens told Fox News.

She said it was unfair that the protesters have been allowed to essentially break the law by setting up camp in the city park.

“We’re trying to show this is unfair and biased treatment by the mayor and the city council,” she said. “Either force the occupiers to follow the law that’s on the books or evict them.”

And what if the city doesn’t administer the law equally?

“If they are not going to apply the law equally, then they should refund our money,” she said. “They’ve been camped out there for almost two weeks and they have not paid one dime. They are not being held accountable to follow the law, yet we were expected to follow the law.”

Similar accusations have been made by other tea party organizations across the nation – including Atlanta, Winston-Salem, NC, and Nashville.

Judson Phillips, of the Tea Party Nation, told Fox News that he’s been getting e-mail from conservatives across the country wondering why they were charged by the government to hold rallies.

“Tea Party groups were given a bit of harassment as they tried to secure permits to hold rallies and yet when these Occupy groups come in – even though they don’t have permits, they’re allowed to do whatever they want,” he said.

Phillips said his group failed to comply with one regulation and were told they could not hold a rally at Legislative Plaza in Nashville.

“I was specifically told by one bureaucrat that if we showed up, they would have the Highway Patrol arrest us,” he said. “We could not do our event there, but Occupy Nashville has been camping out on Legislative Plaza for three weeks.”

And according to a spokesperson for the Tennessee Dept. of General Services, Occupy Nashville has been allowed to camp without securing a permit.

Central office manager Yolanda Bowers told Fox News that as of today Occupy Nashville would be required to by a $65 rental fee and show proof of a $1 million insurance policy.

“You are required to gain a permit,” she said. “They did not get a permit.”

But Bowers said as of today, Occupy Nashville has been given an ultimatum – apply for a permit or leave the plaza.

Owens said she believes Richmond city leaders are showing favoritism toward the Occupy protesters.

“The mayor said he was reluctant to throw the occupiers out of Richmond because he was a child of the Civil Rights protest and that he respects them for what they are doing,” she said. “When we applied for our permit, they didn’t tell us ‘Oh, don’t worry about it, we’re children of the 60s, we don’t believe in charging for protests.’ No. They took our checks and forced us to jump through the hoops.”

Wendy Caswell, with the Louisville Tea Party told WHAS that Occupy Louisville protesters were allowed to get a permit to camp in Jefferson Park until Dec. 31st.

According to a spokesperson for the mayor, the Occupy group had to pay a $25 fee.

However, the tea party group had to pay $75 for a one day permit to use the same park. They were also required to purchase insurance, hire security and medical personnel.

“Why isn’t the same standard (applied) to the Occupy Louisville movement,” Caswell asked radio host Mandy Connell.


 
186Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 10:01
Wilmer points out the real basic difference between the Tea Party and OMS movements. The OWS movement, which is now a national phenomenon, prides itself in being spontaneous and leaderless. The Tea Party, in contrast, was an actual political movement from its origins, grooming political candidates in electoral districts, targeting what it deemed to be opponents, and reaping some impressive results in the 2010 mid-terms.

Unfortunatly for both movements, the original message has been co-opted by the left/right paradigm that muddles issues to suit the much wider agenda.

Both movements were originally based along economic lines. The Tea Party wanted responsible government spending. OWS wanted a more equitable system where banking executives, who helped millions of Americans lose their homes and jobs, had their feet held to the fire instead of making obscene bonuses and golden parachutes that allowed them to financially benefit from the misery they helped cause.

Both movements had noble intentions before the far edges of the right and left decided to hitch their wagons to one side or another.

Tea Party "leaders" and "spokespersons" became Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann and Glenn Beck, none of whom have solid economic credentials, and are more noted for their socially conservative positions.

OWS, while still void of leaders and spokespersons(unless you count Al Sharpton and Tom Hayden), has become a potpourri of liberal causes, from union movements to anti-war demonstrators.

There's some cross-sympathies between movements among the bulk of the 99% who aren't restricted by rigid political ideologies. But the Tea Party is politically organized, and in a much better position to affect outcomes of elections that are now just a year away.
 
187boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 12:09
OWS wanted a more equitable system where banking executives, who helped millions of Americans lose their homes and jobs,

while I agree to second point that they should not be receiving huge bonuses, I am not sure that they are actually response for people losing there homes at least not directly.
 
188boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 12:34
Guess who has the most progressive tax system in the world, that is right the USA. Some actual numbers and thoughts on what taxation and progressive tax systems.
 
189sarge33rd
      ID: 399392811
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 12:39
the actions of those bankers, most certainly and quite clearly; caused the rapid and sudden collapse.
 
190Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 14:04
Since the collapse, banks have been steadfast in their refusal to work with underwater homeowners in an effort to keep them in their homes.

But it's all about perception. The OWS demonstrators need a target, and the banks are an easy one. In a lawsuit filed by the state of Arizona against the nation’s largest lender, a federal auditor says that Bank of America “significantly hindered” a review of its foreclosure practices on loans insured by the Federal Housing Administration.

Personally, I doubt many of those sleeping in tents around the country are foreclosure victims or lost a huge chunk of their retirement in the stock market.

On the other side of the coin, Michelle Bachmann is leader of the Tea Party house caucus, yet she doesn't want to cut a dime from the defense budget.

Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) decried the specter of defense cuts hanging over the congressional supercommittee, accusing President Obama of turning the military into a “political pawn.”

Bachmann, speaking at an American Legion Convention in her native Minnesota, said the administration has engaged in an “assault on the national security apparatus” by seeking defense cuts.


link

Bachmann also doesn't want to cut a dime of aid to Israel, calling it[paraphrasing] our only ally in the region, which I'm sure is news to Turkey(NATO), Bahrain(US fleet Persian Gulf) and Saudi Arabia(top client for US armaments).

You never hear Ron Paul mentioned as a Tea Party candidate, which goes to show how far off track the current edition of the Tea Party is to its origins.
 
191walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 15:35
PV always hits the nuances...awesome posts #186 & #190.
 
192boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 16:32
Since the collapse, banks have been steadfast in their refusal to work with underwater homeowners in an effort to keep them in their homes.

and why should they? I do not understand why there is demand for banks to have to work with underwater homeowners, why not a demand for them to lower the loan payments of those who are not under water or how about giving out higher interest rate savings accounts for those who choose to rent?

Next question will the coming winter bring and end to OWS movement? There is a reason revolutions usually happen in spring and summer.
 
193sarge33rd
      ID: 399392811
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 16:38
Why boikin? Because we saw the banks do this EXACT same thing with midwest ag land in the mid 1980s. EXACTLY the same thing.

Party "A" has a home, with mortgage, worth 250k....bubble bursts and home now worth 200k. mortgage is still 250k.


Why should the bank work with party "A"?

What if they dont? "A" walks away, bank has a 200k property sitting empty and deteriorating. (Empty homes do not do well, we all know that.) Bank sells home at a discount to get out of it...gets 170k. Takes an 80k bath.

What if they DID work with party "A"? Maybe "A" is willing/able to split the diff and continue with a 225rk mortgage. They did after all want the home in the 1st place, enough that they bought it. Bank only takes a 25k hit, "A" takes a 25k hit...all is reasonably well.
 
194Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 16:41
The reason they should work with their own customers is by booting them all (despite getting bailouts from those same customers' taxes) is that empty houses don't help anyone, and contributes to a tanking housing market.

With record foreclosures combined with repackaged loans (in which good loans get mixed in with bad ones, then sold down the river), along with some banks who don't even know that they own a particular properly before foreclosing, you damn well better believe that banks hitting the "foreclose now" button over and over has far-reaching affects.
 
195boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 16:43
thanks, now try answering the question, the question was why is there a demand to rework loans? Of course there are business reason for banks to work with loan holders, but that does not explain why there are outside demands on banks to work with them. Or, are you just agreeing with me?
 
196Razor
      ID: 55982514
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 16:53
Answered in 194 perfectly.
 
197Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 17:04
The claim in post 188 that the USA has the most progressive tax system is crap, way too simplistic. Leaving off sales taxes makes his study worthless. In many states, that is the largest chunk of tax for poor people.

I'm more interested in individual tax burdens, what percent of taxes collected comes from rich people. That's the proper progressive tax ruler.
 
198Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 17:20
Good work, Boikin, but you can't make progress until the other side recognizes that there is such a thing as property rights.

Secondly these guys believe home ownership for the poor is a human right so that anything that separates money from the solvent and gives a home to the insolvent is proper government action. Thus the Community Reinvestment Act which forced banks to make bad loans and now they want to force the banks to write off the loan in whole or in part.

It all makes sense as long as you begin with the premise that your money isn't yours.
 
199boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 17:21
is that empty houses don't help anyone
what empty houses? yes some house are left empty but guess what they move to another place that was empty. Empty houses are results of over building not foreclosure. Yes there is probably some increase in housing as people leave homes to move in with relatives or share housing but still this represents the fact that not only did they build too many houses but too big of houses.

contributes to a tanking housing market. who cares? As someone who saw the risks in an over valued housing market why should I care if housing markets tank? Why is housing special if I told you food prices would be tanking there would jumping in the streets?


With record foreclosures combined with repackaged loans (in which good loans get mixed in with bad ones, then sold down the river), along with some banks who don't even know that they own a particular properly before foreclosing, you damn well better believe that banks hitting the "foreclose now" button over and over has far-reaching affects.

that explains nothing, far reaching affects? which ones? You know probably can not come up with any.


 
200boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 17:24
Re 197: did it not include sales tax? well that is bit misleading but the point is that US is more progressive then you would think plus most European countries have much higher VAT rates, then we have sales tax which in general leads to poor in the US getting taxed at lower rates then the poor in other countries.
 
201sarge33rd
      ID: 399392811
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 17:28
198, the peanut gallery cheering on the rah-rah section?

No B, I do not believe home ownership is a right of anyone. In fact, in most cases, I see home ownership as a pretty damn lousy investment. Rent is often cheaper, allows for greater mobility and improves household liquidity.

Why the demand boikin? Cause those same banks took taxpayer dollars in order to free up lending and loosen the tight credit policy. They took the money, then reneged and gave themselves bonuses instead.
 
202Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 17:32
I stand by 194 as reply to both 192 and 195.

You know probably can not come up with any.

If you are trying to insult here, it might be helpful to re-read your post before clicking "Post Now."

You are aware of the housing crisis, yes? Brought on by mortgages being re-packaged and bundled as financial instruments, yes? Am I going to have to put your nose into the pond here?

I don't deny that there are few internal reasons why a bank would not want to re-negotiate mortgages. In fact, this is why so many efforts at the financial industry policing itself fail--they have little incentive to fix things which have little direct consequence.

Which is exactly why government needs to have better oversight and regulation. When an industry, acting in their own self-interest, cannot prevent themselves from acting in ways which harm others, it is up to the people to step up. The "people" in this case is the "government."
 
203Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 17:47
PD

Are you even aware that far and away the majority of mortage originators were not in the business of creating security packages? And that Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Wall Street brokerage houses don't originate home mortgages?

How many mortgage originators in your community are owned by Citigroup, Chase or Bank of America? I can't think of any mortgage originator in my area who are a division of a sub-prime security bundler.

Acting like every bank in the area owes society cash back for their role in the 2008 meltdown is just you playing RobbinHood.
 
204sarge33rd
      ID: 399392811
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 17:51
B, you ignore the truth here. It was not JUST originators. It was also investment bankers, it was banks working through brokerages. it was halfbaked schemes like IO mortgages and/or stated income, etc etc etc.
 
205Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 18:05
It's really this simple.

Your local bank would have never issued all that sub-prime if the Dems hadn't twisted their arm and the Dems hadn't turned FM/FM into 'the undeserving borrowers' turnstyle to Wall Street financing.

The FM/FM board of directors was a who's who of Democratic party activists deep in the pocket of the black caucus, determined to make housing an entitlement.
 
206sarge33rd
      ID: 399392811
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 18:32
More pure, unadulterated BS.


LIAR, LIAR, LIAR, LIAR (as 3 Dog Night would say)
 
207Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 19:08
We've already posted the articles detailing ACORN mobs outside banker's homes and ACORN lawsuits to intimidate bankers to make bad loans. In some cases with Obama himself as the lawyer. We've already detailed the penalties in the CRA for not making bad loans.

I've already made separate links to FM/FM lowering standards each and every year leading up to 2008. With PD crying liar every step of the way.

I've posted group hug love fests pictures of FM/FM board members and the black caucus. I've posted videos of Dems angrily denouncing better regulation and tighter lending standards at FM/FM.

Calling incontrovertable evidence lies, is your standard operating procedure, Sarge.
 
208sarge33rd
      ID: 399392811
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 19:20
*yawn* got anything new, accurate, factual and/ore relevant? No? Didnt think so.
 
209Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 19:21
The ability of the Right to twist even the recent past continues to amaze.

I'm sorry, Baldwin. Your grasp of the facts on the ground is too poisoned by your partisanship to have anything even approaching a meaningful conversation on the issue.

Facts don't matter to you. Partisan purity does. And that's that.
 
210sarge33rd
      ID: 399392811
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 19:25
GW Bush on the housing and home ownership Oct 2002

Yeah, those damn Democrats. Now B, own up to truth, or put your keyboard away.
 
211sarge33rd
      ID: 399392811
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 19:29
more info for you

The President set a goal to increase the number of minority homeowners by 5.5 million families by the end of the decade. Through his homeownership challenge, the President called on the private sector to help in this effort. More than two dozen companies and organizations have made commitments to increase minority homeownership - including pledges to provide more than $1.1 trillion in mortgage purchases for minority homebuyers this decade.

President Bush signed the $200 million-per-year American Dream Downpayment Act which will help approximately 40,000 families each year with their downpayment and closing costs.

The Administration proposed the Zero-Downpayment Initiative to allow the Federal Housing Administration to insure mortgages for first-time homebuyers without a downpayment. Projections indicate this could generate over 150,000 new homeowners in the first year alone.



Now, just when exactly did Bush become a Dem?
 
212Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 20:03
News Flash:

Did I mention that they are wildly in favor of wealth redistribution? Yeah, really they are.
 
213Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 20:08
Now, just when exactly did Bush become a Dem?

Same as it ever was. That's the problem with RINO's. They always hold on to the tenuous hope that if they just compromise enuff liberals will treat them fairly, invite them to their cocktail parties, write nice things about them and generally like them. Against all evidence that that will never never happen.
 
214sarge33rd
      ID: 399392811
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 20:31
OK, so you got nothing.
 
215DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 21:23
sarge, liars gonna lie, blowhards gonna blowhard, the sun shall set in the west.
 
216Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 21:11
Why they are there--in graph form for those too tired to wade through all the text.
 
217Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 21:17
How this shares space on Daily Kos, I have no idea, but this is great. This is either a liberal contracting a case of lethal cognitive dissonance or they host conservative counterpoint. Great either way.

Oooh those disgusting tea baggers.
 
218Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 21:29
and why should they?

Indeed--it provides their foreclosure lawyers with great Halloween party themes...
 
219Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 18:48
Washington Examiner:
New York Times columnist Joe Nocera has a scathing attack on Jon Corzine, whose financial firm just declared bankruptcy. "The idea that Corzine, who single-handedly destroyed MF Global Holdings, was in a position to command so much as a penny in severance is horrifying...."

What caught my eye was one word that never appeared in Nocera's column. I'll give you a hint: it begins with (D). Also left out of Nocera's piece, Jon Corzine this election has given the maximum to the Democratic National Committee (and thus to Obama's reelection). But it's not Nocera that's omitting these relevant facts -- it's nearly the whole New York Times.

I found 10 articles on the Times website with the words "MF Global" since it announced bankruptcy yesterday. Some numbers:

* Only 5 of 10 NYT articles mentioning MF Global mentioned Corzine
* Only 1 of 5 NYT articles mentioning MF Global & Corzine used the word "Democrat"
* 0 of 5 NYT articles mentioning MF Global & Corzine mentioned that he's $30,800 donor to Obama's DNC

Do you think the Times would omit these facts if a former Republican Senator and Governor and maximum RNC donor ran a huge financial firm into bankruptcy?
The interesting questions to me are:

Did Occupy Wallstreet even notice?

Does Occupy Wallstreet understand that this is the kind of thing they are allegedly protesting?

If they ignore this what are they protesting?

Is there any other possible interpretation than that the NYT covered this story in such a way as to obfuscate the linkage?

[it's a gem, what do you cut out of that piece?]
 
220sarge33rd
      ID: 17109112
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 19:03
Couple years ago B, the WORLDS largest Chevrolet chain of dealerships went under. Not a word that I ever read, indicated Bill's political bent. (Hint, somewhere around 86% of all dealerships, are owned by Republicans.) You want to know why? It isnt relevant. A CEO who runs a company into the ground, AND gets a million dollar + severance for doing so, is PRECISELY why OWS is on the rise. His/her (as the particular case may be) is not relevant, except to those who wish to deflect and whine about something OTHER, than the point.

Shall we all take up a collection, and send you a box of kleenex?
 
221sarge33rd
      ID: 17109112
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 19:05
His/her (as the particular case may be) is not relevant,...

should read:

His/her (as the particular case may be)political leaning is not relevant,...
 
222boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 12:23
Re 216: I am not sure what the point of the graph on productivity and pay is because it is miss representation of the relationship between the two. As productivity increases you can both expect pay increases and decreases. At first pay will increase as your output increases but once output reaches a point were no more output is required added productivity at this point leads to decreases pay as less man hours are required to achieve the same productivity.
 
223Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 12:35
as less man hours are required to achieve the same productivity.

Not exactly. Unless you are making the case that business are asking for workers to maintain a less production.

They don't, of course. So workers are more productive, and getting paid less.
 
224boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 16:30
PD you are missing the other half of the equation if I need less works I fire the ones I don't need which means higher supply of workers for less jobs which means I can pay them less. paying half or firing half my workforce are equivalent.
 
225sarge33rd
      ID: 17109112
      Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 16:54
which is part pf the fuel for the OWS movement. Reduced payroll = diminished ability for public to buy = diminished demand.

Its a self fulfilling prophecy of doom. Demanding "X" prod from "Y" workers to begin with, and then demanding 85%X from 50%Y is self defeating.
 
226Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 17:15
boikin: You don't need less work. Why would any company work to a particular productivity or output level, then stop? Your example doesn't make sense.

Say for example you are a company which builds houses, making ten a year. Through increased productivity, your workers start making 12 a year. Do you cut your workforce down to get back to ten a year? No, of course not. This is where your example falls apart.
 
227sarge33d
      ID: 451057311
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 12:57
Americas corporate tax obscenity

In 2010, Verizon reported an annual profit of nearly $12 billion. The statutory federal corporate income tax rate is 35 percent, so theoretically, Verizon should have owed the IRS around $4.2 billlion. Instead, according to figures compiled by the Center for Tax Justice, the company actually boasted a negative tax liability of $703 million. Verizon ended up making even more money after it calculated its taxes.

Verizon is hardly alone, and isn’t even close to being the worst offender. Perhaps most famously, General Electric raked in $10.5 billion in profit in 2010, yet ended up reporting $4.7 billion worth of negative taxes. The worst offender in 2010, as measured by its overall negative tax rate, was Pepco, the electricity utility that serves Washington, D.C. Pepco reported profits of $882 million in 2010, and negative taxes of $508 million — a negative tax rate of 57.6 percent.



Report linked within the article above

NEW REPORT: 280 Most Profitable U.S. Corporations Shelter Half Their Profits from Taxes.

“These 280 corporations received a total of nearly $224 billion in tax subsidies,” said Robert McIntyre, Director at Citizens for Tax Justice and the report’s lead author. “This is wasted money that could have gone to protect Medicare, create jobs and cut the deficit.”

30 Companies average less than zero tax bill in the last three Years, 78 had at least one no-tax year.

Financial services received the largest share of all federal tax subsidies over the last three years. More than half the tax subsidies for companies in the study went to four industries: financial services, utilities, telecommunications, and oil, gas & pipelines.

U.S. corporations with significant foreign profits paid tax rates to foreign countries that were almost a third higher than they paid to the IRS on their domestic profits.
{emphasis added}

GOP, STOP already with the lie about high corporate taxes strangling US competition.
 
228Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 18:34
So pointing out the successful companies that manage to avoid taxes proves that the ones who do pay taxes aren't A)overtaxed...B)harmed by high taxes.

Exactly how does that logic work?
 
229sarge33d
      ID: 451057311
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 18:54
roflmao PROOF, of the accuracy of the thread I started about modern day arguments.

Boldwin, explain to me how a 10 BILLION dollar profit, garnering a 4 BILLION dollar NEGATIVE tax liability (aka tax refund) = excessive tax rate.


Explain, how paying overseas taxes of 3 times domestic taxes, makes domestic taxes (a) too high and (b) the highest on the planet.

 
230Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 19:21
1) No, Obama's friend Imelt at GE paying no taxes, for faithfully toeing the Obama agenda and donating plenty, is not overtaxed.

2) Higher taxes elsewhere, make those places, places I don't want to be.

3) High and higher are both high.

4) Who said our taxes are the highest on the planet? Maybe for some businesses or some states. Not overall.
 
231Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 19:27
I can solve the corporate tax loopholes and $0.00 tax bills easily.

You know those quarterly reports that corporations use to tout to their stockholders how well the company is doing? Well...there is what they get taxed on. Have them do all their math and figure out their reporting to keep in the good graces of their stockholders. Then at the end of the fiscal year see what they report as profit and tax corporations on that.
 
232sarge33d
      ID: 451057311
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 20:26
re 231...I like that, alot.

Now, no exemptions, no deductions, no modifications. You show on paper, to investors in a prospectus, $18,000,0000 profit? Then you pay 25% of that $4,500,000 in taxes...PERIOD.
 
233Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 00:32
Most companies are already required to pay taxes quarterly.
 
234sarge33d
      ID: 451057311
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 01:13
Yes, but what they show as profit ion their prospectus and what they show as taxable profit on their taxes, are seldom if ever, the same values. If I understand K correctly, he is saying, "Show your investors X profit, pay tax on X."
 
235Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 03:14
A prospectus is a marketing tool. Companies shouldn't be taxed on what they hope to earn--they should be taxes on what they actually earn.

Far better to wipe out any number of tax breaks companies get than to punish them for marketing efforts which imply future earnings.
 
236Frick
      ID: 387512315
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 11:04
I don't think that Khahan was referring to prospectuses, but rather 10-Qs, that corporations are required by the SEC to report each quarter. When a company says we made X or Y/share in a statement, those numbers tie back to the 10-Q which has been audited by an outside firm. Pay taxes on that number.

Typically the number that companies taut is EBITDA (Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization.) I believe that all of those numbers are subtracted from earnings, before taxes are calculated.

 
237Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 11:07
Ah, OK--sarge was talking more about the marketing stuff.

You're right that those numbers are gross numbers rather than net.
 
238Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 14:39
The prospectus is what corporations use to say, "this is what we expect to see in 4th quarter 2011."

Then in first quarter 2012 they come out with the actual results of 4th quarter 2011. The Quarterly Earnings Results. Whatever is reported in those quarterly earnings results.

Cause you know dang well that those figures and the figures they report to the government for tax purposes are 2 different sets.
 
239weykool
      ID: 361047414
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 15:47
Boldwin, explain to me how a 10 BILLION dollar profit, garnering a 4 BILLION dollar NEGATIVE tax liability (aka tax refund) = excessive tax rate.
Sarge:
Before you start bellowing about your headline why dont you find us the actual numbers?
Headlines can be very misleading.
I recall reading one such headline making the same sort of claim.
However when you read the actual article it revealed a couple of things:
1 The company had foreign profits and paid foreign taxes on those profits, but it never revealed the actual numbers.
2 It had overestimated the taxes reported in a prior quarter.
Instead of combining both quarters to report an accurate picture they bellowed their headline that the company paid a negative income tax which of course was regurgitated by the left without any thought.

This subject of foreign income and taxes is not as cut and dry as the left wants to make it.
If the tax laws are changed then US companies would simply form a completely separate unaffiliated foreign company and the results would be the same.
Good luck sending all those corporations in China, Japan, and elsewhere a tax bill.
 
240DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 15:53
weykool: Perhaps, before ripping sarge for not providing a citation in his post 229, you should maybe read the link in post 227. Alternatively, maybe we could see your citation for how it was misleading -- or are we supposed to just take your word for it? See, how this normally works is, if you have a different set of number than someone else cited, you provide a citation of your own instead of just saying "well I heard somewhere once..."



Also, to your point...



drudgesiren.gif

headlines are occasionally misleading.

drudgesiren.gif
 
241sarge33d
      ID: 451057311
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 15:59
re WKs 239, since he apparently could not be bothered to ACTUALLY READ the link in my 227, I will copy paste for his convenience the 2nd line of the 2nd paragraph:

Perhaps most famously, General Electric raked in $10.5 billion in profit in 2010, yet ended up reporting $4.7 billion worth of negative taxes.

So yes, I do stand corrected, it was NOT a 10 BILLION dollar profit as I had typed, but rather it was 10 AND A HALF billion dollars.

And, it was NOT a 4 BILLION dollar negative tax liability reported, but rather a 4 BILLION SEVEN-HUNDRED-THOUSAND dollar negative tax liability.

So I had erroneously, LOWERED the degree of sh*tfulness, by 1.2 billion dollars.

There ya go WK. Feel better now?
 
242Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 17:32
If the tax laws are changed then US companies would simply form a completely separate unaffiliated foreign company

They certainly can, though it is far from simple and doesn't release the US company from tax obligations made before the spinoff is finalized.

The ability, and willingness, of US corporations to do is is overblown, IMO. An option for some certainly but it won't be the exodus from fair taxation that the Right has portrayed.
 
243Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 17:33
How is it that GE both get's the benefit of zero taxes for slavishly donating and following Obama's lead to the letter...

...and get to be the poster child for why we need more taxes?

How about we don't raise taxes and just stop rewarding democrat donors?
 
244sarge33d
      ID: 451057311
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 17:35
delayed correction, 4 Billion, SEVEN HUNDRED MILLION, not thousand.....for the neg tax liability.

That is to say $4,700,000,000

or at $50,000 year in compensation; the equivalent of 94,000 years of pay. That would be equivalent to roughly; drawing 50k a year, from the time of Christ to now, 47 times over.
 
245sarge33d
      ID: 451057311
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 17:37
HOw is it you blame this on Obama?

Sworn into office in Jan 2009....show me the legislation which:

(A) Obama pushed and resulted in this tax break for GE

and then;

(B) explain how Obama could have done such a thing AND he is still, SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO anti-business?
 
246weykool
      ID: 361047414
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 20:42
Sarge:
I did read your link.
My point is very simple.
Where are the details?
Anyone can take a bunch of numbers and make a sensationalized headline for the lefties to regurgitate.
What I am asking for is do you have the actual numbers behind the headlines?
How much income was related to foreign income?
How much was the domestic income?
Is there a copy of the corporate tax return that we can all see to verify the details?
Simple rule in life.
When you are not given all the facts the chances are the headline is a blatant lie.

#242
I wasnt talking about US companies becoming a foreign corporation.
All I was saying if the rules are changed then when a US company wants to expand in another country they would just form a completely separate foreign corp.
The IRS would have zero jurisdiction over the the new corporation and would only collect taxes on the existing US corp.
 
247Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 21:13
Sarge

A) He's a member of Obama's administration. Do I have to draw you a map?

Granted GE is the country's most effective donating and lobbying corporation and have made tailoring the tax code to fit their business a machine.

A corrupt donation of 11 million to schools in Charlie Rangel's district and 30 million overall to NYC schools appear to have been the latest successful bribe in preventing any reform to the generous 'active financing' tax breaks GE uses.

B) China is communist but if you are a general in their army you can own and run a huge private company.
 
248Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 00:13
Yeah, Obama is to blame for income inequality.

Triumph the Insult Comic Dog reporting from OWS.
 
249Wilmer McLean
      ID: 2899151
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 03:10
Noam Chomsky on Occupy Wall Street Protest



1:43 to 2:25 mark

...look at the 2008 election. What swung Obama, what gave him the election was primarily financial institutions, contributions, they prefered him to McCain, and expected to be paid back, and they were...


-------------------------------------------------

Interesting take on Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street Protesters by Chris Hedges



2:54 mark

...On all the structual issues there is no difference. There is a complete continuity. And, of course, the working class and the poor and increasingly the middle class have to pay the price. And it doesn't matter whether it's Democrat or Republican. And that's the fuel of these movements.


 
250Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 11:06
Interesting take on Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street Protesters by Spengler.

State and local governments, though, have exhausted their tax base, and the continuous rise in property taxes through the crash in property prices has kept the real estate market more depressed than economic conditions otherwise might indicate. A further increase in tax rates would yield less revenue. In effect, the government would have to proceed from taxing private capital to expropriating it, de facto or de jure - for example, nationalizing banks and directing them to make loans to politically-favored projects, after the fashion of Latin American banana republics.

The alternative is to renegotiate pension and health benefits already promised to public sector unions.

In either case, households that considered themselves comfortably middle class, and looked forward to a comfortable and secure retirement, find themselves on the edge of calamity. During the bubble years of 1998-2007, when America imported $6 trillion of overseas capital, the ride was easy.

When the whole world brought its savings to the United States, people of mediocre skills and slack work habits could afford big houses, expensive vacations, and (at taxpayer expense) generous pensions. Why Americans expected to live well indefinitely on the largesse of foreign investors is a question for the psychiatrists, not the economists.

The crisis has called into being a political movement of the exasperated middle class, namely the Tea Party. It has erased the image of the government unions as champions of progressive causes, and exposed them as an "aristocracy of labor" (in Marx's phrase) parasitizing the public revenue

The outcome inherently favors the Republicans. Debt - the catchall name for the crushing tax burden - has become a hot button issue even for many Democrats. But this election will be fought more desperately, and nastily, than any other that comes to mind during the past century. This is an existential struggle, a political war of survival for the American middle class. If the government unions go down in the fight, the Democratic Party of Barack Obama will cease to exist in its present form - and that would be a beneficial outcome for the United States.

 
251Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 19:30


This is how to properly engage with police when they do suspicious things. We were riding by on bikes and noticed hes hiding his name and has no badge number. SO we decided to ask him. He did not answer, we asked a ranking officer is that policy? The LT. quickly went about fixing his attitude. This is a common practice among cops at occupy's around the US .That way he/she cannot be named or referenced if he participates in police miss-conduct . Its in most police departments policies that all officers in uniform must show some form of identification. OPD does not wear badges with #'s, how do we hold anyone accountable?

THANKS OPD LT C.WONG for stepping up and holding the officer accountable on camera!
 
252Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 19:55
Re: 240-245

From GE's 10-k (An SEC required document that has to be approved by their accountants.) GECS is GE Financial Services. I apologize for the poor formatting, I copied from GE 2010 10k PDF

GE and GECS file a consolidated U.S. federal income tax return.
This enables GE to use GECS tax deductions and credits to reduce and non-U.S. operating income increase we would expect tax
benefits to increase, subject to management’s intention to
indefinitely reinvest those earnings.
Our benefits from lower-taxed global operations included the
effect of the lower foreign tax rate on our indefinitely reinvested
non-U.S. earnings which provided a tax benefit of $2.0 billion in
2010 and $3.0 billion in 2009. The tax benefit from non-U.S.
income taxed at a local country rather than the U.S. statutory tax
rate is reported in the effective tax rate reconciliation in the line
“Tax on global earnings including exports.”
Our benefits from lower-taxed global operations declined to
$4.0 billion in 2009 from $5.1 billion in 2008 (including in each
year a benefit from the decision to indefinitely reinvest prior year
earnings outside the U.S.) principally because of lower earnings in
our operations subject to tax in countries where the tax on that
income is lower than the U.S. statutory rate. These decreases
were partially offset by management’s decision in 2009 to indefi-
nitely reinvest prior-year earnings outside the U.S. that was larger
than the 2008 decision to indefinitely reinvest prior-year earnings
outside the U.S.
Our consolidated income tax rate increased from 2009 to 2010
primarily because of an increase during 2010 of income in highertaxed jurisdictions. This decreased the relative effect of our tax
benefits from lower-taxed global operations. In addition, the
consolidated income tax rate increased from 2009 to 2010 due to
the decrease, discussed above, in the benefit from lower-taxed
global operations. These effects were partially offset by an increase
in the benefit from audit resolutions, primarily a decrease in the
balance of our unrecognized tax benefits from the completion of
our 2003–2005 audit with the IRS.
Cash income taxes paid in 2010 were $2.7 billion, reflecting the
effects of changes to temporary differences between the carrying
amount of assets and liabilities and their tax bases.
Our consolidated income tax rate decreased from 2008 to
2009 primarily because of a reduction during 2009 of income in
higher-taxed jurisdictions. This increased the relative effect of our
tax benefits from lower-taxed global operations, including the
decision, discussed below, to indefinitely reinvest prior-year
earnings outside the U.S. These effects were partially offset by
a decrease from 2008 to 2009 in the benefit from lower-taxed
earnings from global operations.
A more detailed analysis of differences between the U.S.
federal statutory rate and the consolidated rate, as well as other
information about our income tax provisions, is provided in
Note 14. The nature of business activities and associated income
taxes differ for GE and for GECS and a separate analysis of each is
presented in the paragraphs that follow.
Because GE tax expense does not include taxes on GECS
earnings, the GE effective tax rate is best analyzed in relation to
GE earnings excluding GECS. GE pre-tax earnings from continuing
operations, excluding GECS earnings from continuing operations,
were $12.0 billion, $12.6 billion and $14.2 billion for 2010, 2009 and
2008, respectively. On this basis, GE’s effective tax rate was 16.8%
in 2010, 21.8% in 2009 and 24.2% in 2008.
the tax that otherwise would have been payable by GE.
Our consolidated income tax rate is lower than the U.S. statutory rate primarily because of benefits from lower-taxed global
operations, including the use of global funding structures, and our
2009 and 2008 decisions to indefinitely reinvest prior-year earnings outside the U.S. There is a benefit from global operations as
non-U.S. income is subject to local country tax rates that are
significantly below the 35% U.S. statutory rate. These non-U.S.
earnings have been indefinitely reinvested outside the U.S. and
are not subject to current U.S. income tax. The rate of tax on our
indefinitely reinvested non-U.S. earnings is below the 35% U.S.
statutory rate because we have significant business operations
subject to tax in countries where the tax on that income is lower
than the U.S. statutory rate and because GE funds the majority of
its non-U.S. operations through foreign companies that are subject to low foreign taxes.
Income taxes (benefit) on consolidated earnings from continuing operations were 7.4% in 2010 compared with (11.5)% in 2009
and 5.6% in 2008. We expect our consolidated effective tax rate to
increase in 2011 in part because we expect a high effective tax
rate on the pre-tax gain on the NBCU transaction with Comcast
(more than $3 billion) discussed in Note 2.
We expect our ability to benefit from non-U.S. income taxed at
less than the U.S. rate to continue, subject to changes of U.S. or
foreign law, including, as discussed in Note 14, the possible expiration of the U.S. tax law provision deferring tax on active financial
services income. In addition, since this benefit depends on management’s intention to indefinitely reinvest amounts outside the
U.S., our tax provision will increase to the extent we no longer
indefinitely reinvest foreign earnings.
Our benefits from lower-taxed global operations declined to
$2.8 billion in 2010 from $4.0 billion in 2009 principally because of
lower earnings in our operations subject to tax in countries where
the tax on that income is lower than the U.S. statutory rate, and
from losses for which there was not a full tax benefit. These
decreases also reflected management’s decision in 2009 to indefi-
nitely reinvest prior year earnings outside the U.S. The benefit
from lower-taxed global operations increased in 2010 by $0.4 billion due to audit resolutions. To the extent global interest rates


So, Sarge's article is technically correct, but it also is cherry picking data for a sensational tagline.
 
253sarge33rd
      ID: 461034512
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 22:34
I will admit, having read the above 2 or 3 times; I find it more confusing than enlightening. But then, isnt that the purpose behind legalese?
 
254Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 11:20
Is it selling? - Glenn Harlan Reynolds via washingtonexaminer.com
...while lefty share-the-wealth demonstrations have seized the imagination of our nation's mainstream media, they once again failed to persuade taxpayers to loosen their grips on their pocketbooks.

In Colorado, a tax-increase effort, massively supported (to the tune of about 20 to 1 in terms of spending) by teachers unions, failed miserably. Not only did it lose by a nearly 2 to 1 margin, it failed to carry a majority even in heavily Democratic Denver. (It barely eked out a majority in Colorado's farthest-left enclave of Boulder County.)

More troubling still for the Obama Administration is that the rhetoric of the tax increase's supporters sounded much like that coming from the Obama camp -- lots of talk about "investments" and lots of pictures of children. But taxpayers didn't buy it.

Why not? Perhaps because the past couple of years have demonstrated, in a fashion hard to miss, that no matter what politicians promise, new government spending seems, somehow, to wind up in the pockets of politicians' cronies.

So when "new revenues" are sold as "investments in the community," voters hear instead "taking my money to give it to your buddies and buy votes." Not surprisingly, this doesn't sell.

Indeed, though education is often used to sell tax increases, that approach now seems to be foundering on a lack of results. Nearly every voter knows that spending on education at all levels, though perennially characterized as inadequate, has in fact grown enormously over past decades, but without any visible result.

So, despite vast increases in spending, few would argue that students graduating from high school are better educated today than they were 50 years ago, and few believe that colleges have improved at the same rate that tuitions have gone up
 
255sarge33rd
      ID: 47108610
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 11:40
IOW, the Rep spin machines lies, have taken hold.
 
256Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 12:23
The GOP believes their own lies, at this point.
 
257Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 12:54
Tea Party darling Jason Chaffetz has a better idea than highly skilled and highly educated Americans. Import more foreigners!

And then there's the fallacy of Tea Party opposition to spending

Hill Air Force Base • Congressman Jason Chaffetz donned a G-suit and checked that he had a vital piece of equipment — three barf bags — before heading to the skies with a Hill Air Force Base pilot in an F-16 fighter jet Saturday afternoon.

Turns out, he was overprepared.

“I lost my cookies once,” Chaffetz said after the 80-minute flight in the backseat of the jet piloted by Pat Wade, vice commander of the 419th Fighter Wing. The 3rd District congressman called it “the thrill of a lifetime.”

“I absolutely loved it.”

It was a coincidence that Chaffetz’s flight occurred as the northern Utah base is reeling from news that its Ogden Air Logistics Center is to be downgraded to a depot over the next year. It will lose 261 jobs in the Air Force reorganization, although the commander said he hopes that can be achieved through early retirements and attrition.

The Air Force has not announced any changes to the base’s fighter wings, such as the 419th.

Chaffetz said flying from Hill over the Utah Test and Training Range, along the Utah-Nevada border, will help him better make the case for Hill in Washington.

“I want to make sure I can talk first-hand about what the assets are here at Hill Air Force Base,” Chaffetz said.

The Republican congressman said he disagrees with those who would cut national security “in these times of uncertainty.”

The Air Force decision to downgrade the air logistics center is a bad idea, he said. “The whole delegation is going to continue to fight that fight,” Chaffetz said. “We won’t give up.”


Wonder what it costs to send up a congressman for an 80 minute joyride in an F-16? Was that really essential for him to talk first-hand about the assets at Hill Air Force Base?

As for not wanting cut national security “in these times of uncertainty,” what does that mean? Is he really concerned some foreign military jets are going to be strafing Salt Lake City sometime soon?

And what about those huge tracts of land used for military bombing ranges out here in the West? Boldwin and his pals don't want to give up an inch of federal land for wilderness, but are perfectly OK with federal land used to bomb the shit out of the desert ecosystem.



 
258Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 18:38
They’re anarchists for statism, wild free-spirited youth demanding more and more total government control of every aspect of life — just so long as it respects the fundamental human right to sloth. . . .

Way back in 1968, after the riots at the Democratic Convention in Chicago, Mayor Daley declared that his forces were there to “preserve disorder.” I believe that was one of Hizzoner’s famous malapropisms. Forty-three years later Jean Quan, mayor of Oakland, and the Oakland city council have made “preserving disorder” the official municipal policy. On Wednesday, the “Occupy Oakland” occupiers rampaged through the city, shutting down the nation’s fifth-busiest port, forcing stores to close, terrorizing those residents foolish enough to commit the reactionary crime of “shopping,” destroying ATMs, spraying the Christ the Light Cathedral with the insightful observation “F**k,” etc. And how did the Oakland city council react? The following day they considered a resolution to express their support for “Occupy Oakland” and to call on the city administration to “collaborate with protesters.”

That’s “collaborate” in the Nazi-occupied-France sense: The city’s feckless political class are collaborating with anarchists against the taxpayers who maintain them in their sinecures.
---------
Why the counterintuitive government apparachiks backing anarchist protests?

Commenter: “Those #Occupy elitists do not expect to live in a statist society, they plan to RUN it, with all attendant benefits.
- Mark Steyn and commenter via NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE via Instapundit
 
259sarge33rd
      ID: 47108610
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 18:41
more BS opinion editorial pieces...got any NEWS. or solid, factual information?
 
260Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 18:58
Sarge

So who died and left you forum police? Determined to make sure we don't discus the meaning, the future, the uses to which OWS will be put...

...stop listening to or discussing ideas and limit yourselves to discussing what? How many underage girls were raped in OWS and where? How many buildings were spray painted? Windows broken? YouTubes of earnest marxist manifestos?

Sarge, you can actually evolve upward from a dust mote wafted about by every shifting wind and enter the world of ideas and thinking for yourself.

Contribute something other than arm-waving distraction and trolling, Sarge.
 
261sarge33rd
      ID: 47108610
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 19:00
lol You B, have no room to call anyone a troll, or non contributory.

truth is, as I said the other day, the TP and OWS share the same basic issue. Just each is blaming a different entity. I happen to believe, OWS has the right "villain" and TP has the wrong one.

History, if you look at it HONESTLY, would seem to agree with me.
 
262Perm Dude
      ID: 549411117
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 19:56
He's stuck in the 60's, sarge. Literally everything is 1968 Chicago again. Unless it is Clinton or Carter.
 
263Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 01:05
I'm stuck in the 60's?

Pete Seeger at OWS reprising 'If I had a walker'.
 
264Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 01:14
"I'd walk in the morning

I'd walking in the evening

All over this land

It's the walker of justice

It's the walker of freedom..."

92 yrs old and running on empty according to Jackson Brown.
 
265sarge33rd
      ID: 47108610
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 02:23
actually, I was thinking the 50's...you know, you're ole buddy McCarthy?
 
266Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 03:15
92 yrs old and running on empty according to Jackson Brown.

kind of funny to see you mocking someone's age and generation - someone who made more of a positive impact on this planet then you could even dream of achieving - with a song that is 35 years old.

and that you chose a song that got John McCain and the RNC sued by Browne for using it without permission in a commercial mocking Barack Obama.
 
267Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 07:41
#258

The calamity at the Occupy Oakland protest is no more representative of the hundreds of Occupy protests going on nationally than the Kent State shootings were representative of law enforcement tactics during the Vietnam War protest era.
 
268boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 11:45
And what about those huge tracts of land used for military bombing ranges out here in the West? Boldwin and his pals don't want to give up an inch of federal land for wilderness, but are perfectly OK with federal land used to bomb the shit out of the desert ecosystem.

The bomb ranges are probably more ecologically protected then most any other places in the nation. Yes bombing is not good for the environment but in general the actual grounds that bombed is very limited, secondly the government has strict regulations on cleaning up, and finally you ever tried illegal dumping on a bomb range.

 
269Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 10:03
Police arrest man at Occupy Portland camp for throwing Molotov cocktail into stairwell at World Trade Center.

Figures.
 
270Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 10:09
Ditto.
 
271Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 10:32
It was irony, PD

Those arrested really were OWS.
So we can understand why liberals want the Occupy movement to work out for them. However with over 2,400 arrests in roughly six weeks, you have to think they’ll soon be having some buyer’s remorse.
Tho I think this writer misunderstands OWS headspace. These youngsters look at an arrest as a right of passage since they missed the golden age of protest of the '60s and OWS organizers see it as the ultimate way to get young casual passers-by and carnival attendees invested for life in the radical movement. Far from 'buyers remorse' OWS would be highly disappointed if there weren't arrests.
 
272Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 10:35
Hah! You are still so stuck in the 60's, you can't imagine a protest on the left which doesn't glamorize it as much as you do.

As I've said before: Just because the issues are complicated doesn't make it chaos, despite your own cherry-picking.

OWS protesters are against the innate unfairness of a system designed by those who already have power, money, and influence to increase each. Income concentration reduces income mobility--the more the rich get richer, the less likely it is that new people get rich.

Stop bending over for people who wouldn't lift a finger to help you, and have gamed the system for strictly their own benefit.
 
273Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 10:38
I don't bend over for democrat power-grabbers.
 
274Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 11, 2011, 11:29
No, you bend over for those who already have the power.
 
282Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 07:55
Spaceghost not impressed by OWS

In other news...



I'd discus it but the discussion has been censored.
 
283Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 11:45
you're such a victim.
 
284DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 13:37
Remember kids, if you get your stupid post deleted because it's terrible, the only proper reaction is to just post it again in a more insulting manner. Everything else is just succumbing to the left-wing conspiracy.

Did we ever determine why Michael Moore isn't allowed to profit from capitalism, other than Boldwin doesn't like him and therefore desperately thinks he should be relegated to a cardboard box under an overpass?

Because if that's it, my reaction is probably going to be to go buy out Sicko and Bowling from Columbine from the local video store's bargain bin.
 
285Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 14:09
I'd respond but it's not allowed.

Looking at OWS protesters pushing 78 yr old ladies down stairs at a conservative bloggers convention it occurs to me a main purpose of designing OWS was to build a standing army to physically intimidate the Tea Party.



Her name is Dolores Broderson, age 78. She rode on a bus for 11 hours from Detroit to get there. She went to the emergency room with a bloody nose and bruises on her hand and leg.”
 
286Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 14:50
I'd respond but it's not allowed.

Bullshit. Grow a pair.
 
288Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 15:52
I'd respond but it's not allowed.

whine much?

Looking at OWS protesters pushing 78 yr old ladies down stairs

no where in that video do you see any protesters pushing any lady down the stairs. there is a security guard pushing through the crowd, and there's no telling if he helped create a domino effect, if the woman just fell, or if, she was, indeed, pushed.

but you're happy to leap to conclusions and spread lies, because that's what people like you do.

of course, Dolores Broderson herself must be lying, if Baldwin's viewpoint is to be believed.

Inside the building, AFPers were warned about the shenanigans and told to stick around. Some of them tried to head out anyway, and one of them was Dolores Broderson, a 78-year-old retiree from Michigan.

Broderson was held off by protesters who’d linked their arms to block the doors. Helped by a friend, she tried to move past them. Seconds later, she was sprawled out on the ground, with a bump on her head and a bloody nose. “All of a sudden, they opened their arms,” she later told me. “I went flying down the stairs.”


the protesters let her pass through, and she fell down the stairs. no pushing her down the stairs, by her own words.
 
289sarge33rd
      ID: 1110131214
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 15:57
she's old Tree. She doesnt know what happened as well as B does. After all, this wont be the first video he has personally reviewed, second by second, hundreds of times, in order to fabricate, I mean support his contention.
 
290sarge33rd
      ID: 1110131214
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 16:29
watching that vid a few times...you can not tell what happened. The camera came off her as she fell.

Was she pushed by an OWS protestor? Could have been I suppose.

Did her heel catch on the stair and cause a trip/fall? Could have been I suppose.

Did she get pushed by someone else in the crowd? Could have been I suppose.

Was she trying to sort of wedge her way thru and suddenly the "sea parted" so to speak and she fell in the direction she was headed? Most likely I would suppose.
 
292sarge33rd
      ID: 1110131214
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 17:31
re the video and the fall, I think I can surmise what actually happened, with a more likely MOST likely scenario....

There is quite the crowd of bodies there and the ground itself is not visible. Ever tale a step when you thought there was one more stair step there but there wasnt? You know that odd "early" thump of your foot hitting ground before you anticipated it? Reverse that. Ever taken a step expecting there to BE ground but there wasnt? I think that she reached the top of the stairs but didnt know it because of the throng of bodies in close proximity...she stepped, expecting ground and encountered instead...air. Which we all know, doesnt support much weight at all. AT 50-something, our reflexes arent what they used to be, let alone at a later age. I think it MOST likely, THAT is what caused the fall.

 
293Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 09:22
Gene Simmons lectures OWS.
Banks shouldn't have to tell you not to borrow so much.

They're banks — they're supposed to lend you money.
If you can't afford to take out £100,000, don't take out a £400,000 mortgage.

It's your responsibility to be a grown-up and take care of yourself.

Thank God we have lending institutions and banks. The planes that fly through the sky, the phones we use every day, the cars we drive, the houses we live in, the entire economy is all funded by firms who borrow in return for interest.

This mess is our fault — corporations have no responsibility.

Capitalism is the best thing that ever happened to human beings. The welfare state sounds wonderful but it doesn't work.


Governments hand out more money than they have to support welfare and they land in debt.

Then they have to borrow money — and then there's interest on top of that.

That's bad business. And it has created a culture of entitlement.

When I was growing up my mother went to work. There was no welfare. If you worked, you made money.

If you didn't work, you had to figure it out — you'd go and wash dishes.

The new breed of 20-year-olds don't want to do those jobs.

So people from other countries come over and are thrilled to get the chance to wipe the floors.

Kiss are the only business-savvy band about and I make no apologies for that.
---
People say things like: "Oh, you make so much money. What do you need any more for?"

Well, actually, b*tch, I never asked for your opinion. I'll let you know when I have enough money.
 
294Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 09:22
Yeah, that Gene Simmons.
 
295Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 10:08
I don't think you understand at all what OWS people are protesting. They aren't protesting their own entitlements. They are protesting the entitlements strictly for the wealthy.

Governments hand out more money than they have to support welfare and they land in debt.

You agree with this, yes? How about if the welfare in question is corporate welfare, say to banks?

If so, then you agree with most of the OWS message.
 
296Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 11:05
Kiss are the only business-savvy band about and I make no apologies for that.

Maybe the only business-saavy novelty band. Gene may want to check out Bon Jovi's balance sheet over the past 30 years.
 
297Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 11:47
Missed that point. So a wealthy guy misunderstands, then mocks, OWS? Wow, that's news.

Typically, jeering out windows by the haves at the have-nots in the streets hasn't turned out so well in the past for the haves...
 
298Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 12:24
Yeah, that Gene Simmons.

the same one that's also slept with nearly 5,000 women? perhaps you can follow his lead on that too.

Kiss are the only business-savvy band about and I make no apologies for that.

Maybe the only business-saavy novelty band. Gene may want to check out Bon Jovi's balance sheet over the past 30 years.


or the Stones. or U2. or the Dave Matthews Band (the top-grossing live performer of the last decade).

even so, the bigger point is that a super-rich guy is sneering at the OWS movement. this is surprising, why? good for Gene Simmons for making his money. Bad for him missing the point.



 
299DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 15:22
I wonder if Gene Simmons has a woded dacha anywhere, or if the Russian pejoratives are only for Democrats?
 
300Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 20:13
Occupy Seattle - how to lose friends and alienate people.
No sooner had the panel finished opening remarks last night than a woman scampered up onto stage and yelled, "Mic check!" It was an orchestrated effort by several dozen activists to use the People's Mic to interrupt a forum at Town Hall—a forum in favor of Occupy Wall Street, featuring three wonks and three activists from Occupy Seattle. Their stunt replaced what was supposed to be an informed discussion of the movement with an uninformative, shout-a-thon about process that consumed most of the evening. They booed opinions they disagreed with and drove supporters out of the building.

I imagine a few more stunts like this and even hyper-lefty Seattle will ignore the Occupy movement. Yeah, I get that you are angry at The System and yeah, you have to be a little crazy to sleep in a tent on bricks and get batoned by police, but when people who sleep inside support you, don't shout them down, seriously.
 
301Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 23:36
Its the problem with a leaderless movement. A consensus-based organization sounds good, until you want to actually do something. It took weeks for NYC to convince the drummers not to go 24/7, for instance.
 
302Razor
      ID: 569263121
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 09:59
The people on the street no longer represent the OWS Movement. Their voices have been heard by the nation, and a majority of Americans agree with the notion that there is too much influence by individuals and corporations with money which results in a system that favors those people. Without a clear list of demands, the OWS now seems pointless.
 
303biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 10:01
Something like 80% of homeless are mentally ill.

While you can fight to help them and make sure their interests are supported, you don't let lunatics run the asylum.
 
304Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 11:45
Tom Coburn analysis of millionaire tax breaks is worth a deep look.

These billions of dollars for millionaires include $74 million of unemployment checks, $316
million in farm subsidies, $89 million for preservation of ranches and estates, $9 billion of
retirement checks, $75.6 million in residential energy tax credits, and $7.5 million to compensate
for damages caused by emergencies to property that should have been insured. All and all, over
$9.5 billion in government benefits have been paid to millionaires since 2003. Millionaires also
borrowed $16 million in government backed education loans to attend college.
On average, each year, this report found that millionaires enjoy benefits from tax giveaways and
federal grant programs totaling $30 billion. As a result, almost 1,500 millionaires paid no federal
income tax in 2009.?


This is the kind of thing that OWS is fighting for. Too bad the Tea Partiers decided to attack first rather than join forces for some real change.
 
305boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 12:30
I like how there are no citations on that paragraph, how convenient.
 
306Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 12:47
When you go to the original, you'll see the footnotes. I didn't see the need to reprint footnotes in a message board post which also links to the original.
 
307Boldwin
      ID: 2510471511
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 12:48
We're already trying to end both the taxes and the giveaways.

Did you ever think that maybe the poor guy paying 'just' a thousand a year in income taxes might not like being held up at gunpoint to pay for some liberal making ten times as much to put up solar panels? Who cares if it's a millionaire or the DMV worker? Why should a nickel of the working poor go to anyone's solar panel?

You guys act like the only income you want to confiscate is the rich's but that's not how it ever felt to me April 15.

And why shouldn't millionaires be allowed to collect their retirement checks? It's not your money. Get that thru your head.

 
308Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 13:04
We want taxes to be fair, first. Otherwise we're all just tossing around half-informed opinions.

Until millionaires start paying taxes at the same rates as the rest of us, minimum, we've got no standing to say they are over-taxed in some way.

As for retirement money, read Coburn's report on it first. He's certainly no liberal. Not even close.
 
309Boldwin
      ID: 2510471511
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 13:26
If by 'fair' you mean give us all your money and we'll let you know if you qualify for any government 'aid'.
 
310Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 13:34
I've been clear on what I mean by fair. You don't have to make sh!te up about what I mean, then knock down your fake definition.

If you don't know, ask. If you can't ask, don't respond like a dick. Kinda simple. Almost Christian, even.
 
311Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 13:35
Coburn's report on it first. He's certainly no liberal. Not even close

Wrong tactic PD. If he claims to be conservative or a republican but disagrees with Boldwin's extreme views, then he's simply a RINO and dismissed on those grounds.
 
312Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 13:42
Heh. Maybe. Hard to anticipate the reaction from inside the bunker.
 
313boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 14:42
Re 306: That is what I was referencing it has no citations for that quote.
 
314sarge33rd
      ID: 5410381514
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 15:39
This admittedly, is WELL outside my realm of expertise; or even functional knowledge to be honest.

Just what *IS* the Fed Reserve? Do we need it? Really? I dont know, so no, the questions are legit. Cause if this link is accurate and true.....

Audit of Res shows 16 TRILLION in secret bailouts
 
315Frick
      ID: 387512315
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 16:25
I haven't had time to read everything, but I don't think the linked article is truthful, or at least is misstating several issues. The GAO hasn't issued their own report yet, so the draft that is linked is either not real or a draft version.

No where in the report does it mention 16 trillion in secret bailouts. One of the bigger points mentioned is non-bid contracts, which the GAO finds as acceptable due to the circumstances. It does note, that additional controls should be implemented to help provide control in those situations, but it found no evidence of wrong doing.

Do we need the Federal Reserve? There are many arguments against it, but overall it is an independent (of politicians) organization who's purpose is to help regulate the US economy.
 
316Building 7
      ID: 541057215
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 16:45
See page 131. It's real.
 
317sarge33rd
      ID: 5410381514
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 16:56
OK, I have a fairly high level of reading comprehension. I will however, admit that the section beginning approx 1/2 way down pg 130 of your link B7....makes a little bit less than no sense to me at all. Befuddled I think is the word. :/
 
318Boldwin
      ID: 3410581515
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 17:41
I've posted this information before. Not that you could talk about it too much. Carry on.

I'd call handing out more cash than the entire national debt, not just the one year deficit, but the entire debt accumulated over the history of the country, in one brief fling out the window...

...is more than 'helping regulate economy'. Now true, the reason the giveaways were so huge was that they were covering just a portion of all the bad debt derivative insurance policies out there which add up to more than the entire wealth of the world...
If the Federal Reserve and the bankers who control it believe that they can continue to devalue the savings of Americans and continue to destroy the US economy, they will have to face the realization that their trillion dollar printing presses will eventually plunder the world economy.
But plundering the wealth of the world was the entire point of the exersize. And the people who set up the federal reserve system in the first place have been doing the plundering since day one. They aren't going to have a conscience attack.
Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.” Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.

“The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests.The Rothschild brothers of London writing to associates in New York, 1863.

I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies. If the American people ever allow the banks to control the issuance of their currency (instead of Congress), first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied. - Thomas Jefferson not that you can prove he originated it or that it matters who said it. It's as clear sighted as anything ever written.
Plunder [by the Rothschilds] was the entire point of the exersize.
 
319Boldwin
      ID: 3410581515
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 18:01
Clifts Notes version:

We let them print up some monopoly money with our name on it and they hand it to us...

...and then we hand them an IOU in return.

What could go wrong?

If that doesn't sink in, feel free to send me a check for this $100,000 note I just sketched out on this napkin.
 
320Boldwin
      ID: 3410581515
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 18:05
[Put yer spurs back in the drawer, secret service, that was just a rhetorical device.]
 
321sarge33rd
      ID: 5410381514
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 19:16
Yes B...I am aware, as is everyone here, of your position re the Fed, the Rothschilds, Gettys, etc etc etc.

Here's the ironic thing...the statement you attribute to Amschel Rothschild, is nowhere near so ominous as it OBVIOUS. Control the financials, and you control the country. I dont see that as a terrifying or glaring revelation, so much as an obvious fact.

Now, B's paranoia aside, as for ex MANY of the loans were overnight loans and were thus indeed repaid, does the Fed in fact serve a viable purpose or is it in fact just another tool for the extremely rich to ensure they stay that way?
 
322Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 19:41
The Federal Reserve likes to refer to these secret bailouts as an all-inclusive loan program, but virtually none of the money has been returned and it was loaned out at 0% interest. Why the Federal Reserve had never been public about this or even informed the United States Congress about the $16 trillion dollar bailout is obvious — the American public would have been outraged to find out that the Federal Reserve bailed out foreign banks while Americans were struggling to find jobs. - Sarge's link
 
323sarge33rd
      ID: 5410381514
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 19:43
yes B, and then B7 posted the GAO report. That disproved at least one of the allegations made in the article I linked AND stated IF true....

Please, try and keep up. These logic processes involved are of the 3rd grade variety.
 
324Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 19:49
Sarge

And it's obvious is it?

That a family you don't know anything about controls the country...

...a family which uses their wealth thru their broker, George Soros to tear down, plunder and warp nations.

That's not a big deal.

No one should consider that a surprising revelation.
 
325Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 19:55
Do we need the Federal Reserve? There are many arguments against it, but overall it is an independent (of politicians) organization... - Sarge

As to your central question as posed, it isn't independent of the politicians, it owns the politicians.
 
326sarge33rd
      ID: 5410381514
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 19:56
again B...3rd grade logic, C follows B which follows A...

it is no great shakes revelation, that controlling an economy will in turn control the nation. No. Read Tom Clancy "Sum of All Our Fears" for ex. "Follow the money...", has long been a phrase which if followed, takes you to the puppet master in question. No, it is not any earth shattering revelation, that the statement/philosophy holds substantial water.
 
327Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 20:05
I see, so then the fact that according to you, quote: 'This admittedly, is WELL outside my realm of expertise; or even functional knowledge to be honest.' only applies when I'm not around.

When I am around this is just third grader basics.

But it must be sub-third grade basics...

...when I show you congressional testimony that Rothschilds controls the boards of all the regional and central Fed Banks...

...when I show you exactly how they create money and how they create their own wealth out of thin air, instantly making us all poorer...

You don't understand the first thing about it, until I show up and then you transform into the sneering expert.

Must be magic.
 
328sarge33rd
      ID: 5410381514
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 20:20
B...quit being obtuse and derailing the thread. It is not my fault, if you are unable to properly put non industry specific terminology into context.

Final attempt at explaining simple English to you:

When I said it was well outside my real of expertise; the "it" to which I refer is the workings of international macro economics. NOT, noun-verb sentence structure.

When I said, "Cause if this link is accurate and true.", this is known as a qualifier. IF the content referenced is true, then there are issues. If not however,m then there are not. Turns out one of THE major issues (allegations) raised by the initial article, is false. When they claim that most of the monies have not been repaid. Truth is, according top the GAO, many of those loans were overnight loans, which means they were repaid the next day. LOGIC, further dictates then that while 16 trillion dollars MAY have been lent in total; it represented essentially lending the same dollars multiple times.

For ex, I have $100 and I loan $10 to 10 people to be repaid tomorrow. They repay, and I loan the same amounts to 10 more people that next day, with the same understanding of next day repayment. I have now lent $200, though I only had $100. This, makes the figure of 16 trillion, by itself meaningless.

Now when you quote part of what I said, as in your bolded quote above, but ignore the qualifier AND additional information publicly brought to light SINCE the posting of the quote you bolded...you are being deliberately disingenuous.

It is B, your conduct, which should have been outgrown by the 3rd grade. Now, see if you cant try and at LEAST, advance to JHS.
 
329Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 20:29
Was it second grade stuff when I showed you that when they set up the Fed they gave themselves controlling shares and made it illegal to ever sell them?
 
330Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 20:29
Re: 316

I missed that part in my brief skimming of the article. But, as I read the details, they are aggregating borrowing in chart 8, for each borrowing period, while chart 9 shows the total amount of money lent. The example they give is:

For example, an overnightPDCF loan of $10 billion that was renewed daily at the same level for 30business days would result in an aggregate amount borrowed of $300billion although the institution, in effect, borrowed only $10 billion over 30days. In contrast, a TAF loan of $10 billion extended over a 1-month period would appear as $10 billion. As a result, the total transaction amounts shown in table 8 for PDCF are not directly comparable to thetotal transaction amounts shown for TAF and other programs that made loans for periods longer than overnight


In my mind, the 16 trillion seems like an inflated used to make a dramatic headline.
 
331sarge33rd
      ID: 5410381514
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 20:34
what I was thinking too Frick.

B...I';m not interested in your finger pointing,. OK? Got it yet? QUIT IT. I', seeking to grasp some of the HOW, the Fed works.

I know, WE know; you think its the evil machinations of the Illuminati, supported by the Rothschilds and financed by Soros. (Somehow, you have so far failed to blame Clinton for this one. An oversight I expect you will soon correct.)
 
332sarge33rd
      ID: 5410381514
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 22:53
stolen from s friends FB page:

The free exercise of speech is often inarticulate, ignorant, imprudent, inconvenient, inaccurate, outrageous, hyperbolic, and it is our right as AMERICAN CITIZENS! Agree or disagree with the Occupy Movement, they have a right to be there and say what they believe! They dont have thier own network to be ignorant, inarticulate, outrageous, or hyperbolic...they are the 99%. And So Am I.
 
333Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 00:13
That a family you don't know anything about controls the country...

We're deep into Looneyville now. Stop, please. Or post somewhere else, where people might actually read what you write anymore. You've jumped the shark.
 
334Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 01:22
this thread should be re-titled "Occupy a mind going mad."
 
335Frick
      ID: 387512315
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 08:39
Re: 331

The Federal Reserve is where banks go to borrow money. Banks are required to have specific amounts of currency on hand (assets) compared to their outstanding loans (liability). At the end of each day, a bank has to total up their assets and liabilities and meet a specific percentage. If they don't meet the amount, they can borrow from other banks, often called the over-night rate, so that they meet the percentage at the end of the day. The Fed is sometimes called the lender of last resort as banks can go to the Federal Reserve to get an overnight loan if, but IIRC the Fed frowns on banks coming to them repeatedly, as it is a sign they are over extended and more intense scrutiny might be warranted.

In the past economic crisies have been the result of 1 bank being temporarily out of cash, i.e. a run on a bank. What typically happened was a person goes to the bank to make a withdrawal and the bank didn't have the liquid currency. In the days before debit cards, credit cards, and really personal checks, this was a major issue. That person, rightfully, starts a scare and other depositors with the bank line-up asking for their money. The bank typically had the money, but didn't have it in cash on hand. They have loaned the money back out, for example a home loan. The bank can't go to the homeowner and say, sorry, we need you to pay off your home loan right now so your neighbor can cash out his account.

The Fed could step in, provide a temporary injection of cash, stop a panic, and keep the system from crashing. A panic at one bank would lead to very profitable and healthy banks being ruined in the past. The Fed was designed to stop that.

The Fed also has the reigns on the economy as they control the interest rate of the overnight rate. By increasing or decreasing the overnight rate they could spur or retard lending activity. This has the trickle down effect of setting other interest rates in the economy. Want to know why car rates fluctuate, it ties back to the Fed's interest rate.

That is only a part of what they do, but is a high level overview IIRC from my Economics classes.
 
336Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 11:48
All true, Frick but it leaves out that the Fed causes the booms [bubbles] and busts the results of which they are allegedly protecting us from.

There isn't anything that they do that the treasury department couldn't do just as well and without the drawbacks.
 
337Building 7
      ID: 541057215
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 12:41
The dollar has lost 95% of its value since 1913 when the Fed started. A dollar will only buy 5% of what it would have in 1913. From 1790 to 1913 inflation was basically zero. A 1913 dollar would buy the same amount of stuff as in 1790. That dollar was backed by gold and silver, and many were redeemable in gold or silver. After 100 years of the Fed, a dollar will buy less than 5% of what it would in 1913. And the government has reneged on redeeming silver certificates and gold certificates for real gold and silver coins. This is a default IMO by the federal government on one of its obligations. When people say the federal governemt has never defaulted, they forget about this.
 
338sarge33rd
      ID: 1310261612
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 13:26
re 336...and here I thought human greed caused explosive investment bubbles, which ultimately HAVE to burst when the profit taking starts if for no other reason.

The Fed did not cause the housing bubble to burst, nor did it cause the dot com bubble to burst. Neither, did it cause either of those two bubbles to be created.

Simple, human greed did that.
 
339sarge33rd
      ID: 1310261612
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 13:28
1913 is also B7, about the time we began mass production in earnest. Why not tie inflation, to mass production of goods? We had never had mass production before, and you claim we never had inflation before. OK, so disprove the allegation that mass production causes inflation and not the Fed. (IOW, finger pointing is easy...lets try and refrain from it OK?)
 
340Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 13:33
Blaming inflation entirely on the Fed is nothing new. And not any more valid.
 
341Building 7
      ID: 541057215
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 13:41
Monetary inflation is a sustained increase in the money supply of a country. If that's not the Fed's fault, I'm not sure whose it is. You keep defending the Fed, and I'll keep buying gold.
 
342sarge33rd
      ID: 1310261612
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 13:51
"A sustained increase in the money supply". Last i checked, the Fed doesnt print the money, the mint does. That, under the orders of ...the Treasury which would be guided by...Congress, yes?
 
343Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 19:56
for Baldwin:

an 84-year-old woman, OWS protestor after being peppersprayed by police.



or, a pregnant woman.

 
344Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 21:50
#341: I'm not defending the Fed. I'm defending the ability to make strong arguments based on the facts on the ground.

You aren't making one right now, IMO.
 
345Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Nov 16, 2011, 22:22
I've been criticizing the Fed on these boards for years. And you've been defending the Fed for years. But feel free to claim otherwise. Long before the Tea Party started. People are coming around to my way of thinking. Especially compared to when I first started posting.

Looks like things could get interesting in NYC tomorrow.
 
346Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 03:20
They are threatening to firebomb Macy's tomorrow, so yeah. Empty threat? Hoping to make a self-fulfilling prophecy? Tipping hand? Who can tell?
 
347Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 03:40
This system is deliberately crafted to be so witheringly complicated and counter-intuitive that no matter how smart you are it's really hard to be sure you understand every step of the process, and the implications for the government, the people's wealth and the profits of the Fed and it's shareholder.
the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests. - London Rothschild brothers




 
348Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 03:47
And now that you couldn't absorb that, here's the further refinements the power elite have added to the scam.





 
349Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 07:22
BTW, the authors of this series correctly define many of the problems and do a good job of thinking outside the box and imagineering...

...but then go off the rails by embarking on the satanic project of attempting to 'design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good', to quote the immortal words of T.S.Elliot.
 
350Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 12:01
Let me get this straight. You've only been here eight weeks and you've already got a ghetto? - Jon Stewart
 
351walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 12:58
This system is deliberately crafted to be so witheringly complicated and counter-intuitive that no matter how smart you are it's really hard to be sure you understand every step of the process, and the implications for the government, the people's wealth and the profits of the Fed and it's shareholder.

The Fed is a not-for-profit organization. All money goes back to the Treasury.
 
352Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 13:46
Au contraire. A portion of the profits are sent back. And since they are printing astronomical bills out of thin air, their portion really adds up.

Further, while our congressmen are exempting themselves from insider trading laws as they pick winners and losers and then beat everyone else to the counter...

...the Rothschilds are figuratively making the report they were waiting for in Trading Places.

'They' say you can't time the market, but 'they' weren't refering to the Rothschilds and their inbred extended family.


How much wealth could you make if you knew the exact day the bubbles would burst your whole life? The span of your entire family dynasty?

How much money could you make if you could loan out ten times as much of that wealth as you actually owned? [fractional banking] Compounded over and over for the lifespan of your family dynasty?
 
353Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 14:07
the regional banks pay a set 6% dividend on the member banks' paid-in capital stock (not the regional banks' profits) each year, returning the rest to the US Treasury Department. - wiki
They get a better ROI than you or I get. For starters. But it is their inflation of the money supply that kills us.
 
354walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 14:12
I am pretty sure they have a public web-site. Quite interesting information there. I do not believe there is some hidden agenda.
 
355Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 14:21
Hidden agenda? I showed you quotes they made over a hundred years ago bragging about the agenda.
 
356walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 14:57
I dunno, I am more compelled by the other 65 pages on wiki and the public web-site. I think this is more of a central philosophical issue as to whether one, deep down (or not deep down) trusts (any/all) facets of the government. I think you do not, and that is okay, but I am not convinced to think that way about this organization. There are other parts of the government, and of private organizations, that I trust, and do not trust. So, for me, in this case, I trust them. I feel like I see more untrustworthy behaviors in the private sector though.
 
357Boldwin
      ID: 1910361518
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 15:16
How did 'I trust the top 0.0000001 percent implicitly' make it into this thread?
 
358walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 15:28
Now we are moving back on topic. Who is the top 0.0000001 percent (and where did those quotes come from?). That tippy top percent certainly aint the government (well, mayor Mike has both camps, but then again, I trust him as a mayor more than most pol's, and trust Bloomberg as a quality media org, too). Maybe that's the issue. You think government is running the whole thang, when it's really corporations.
 
359boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 15:45
forbes predicts return to the gold standard.
 
360Boldwin
      ID: 810151715
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 16:25
Well it's the corporations the Rothschild owns who own the governments controlling the whole thang.

only 10 corporation rules 19.45% of the financial system and the 50 biggest control 40% and their inter-relationship is stunning. It's like one global conglomerate/shadow government.




The top corporations are so stunningly interconnected that...

The New Scientist covers this story, pointing out that, in effect, less than 1 per cent of the companies are able to control 40 per cent of the entire network – mostly financial institutions like Barclays Bank, JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs.
That would be the families who created the Fed and own the Fed's shares [by law] in perpetuity.

Interestingly when one of the original Fed shareholders went bankrupt in the 2008 collapse they were immediately bought by Barclays, whose owner is married to a Rothschild thus preserving the family monopoly.

In Rothschild we trust, eh Walk?
 
361Building 7
      ID: 541057215
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 16:53


 
362Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 17:18
In Rothschild we trust, eh Walk?

Is this a wink wink? Boldwin actually coming around from "all demonizing, all the time?"
 
363Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 23:39
love this photo

 
364Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 23:58
Is it the upside down US flag?
 
365Boldwin
      ID: 111025184
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 05:41
PD

Is this a wink wink? Boldwin actually coming around from "all demonizing, all the time?" - PD

I think people miss how incredibly funny this stuff is. Ann Coulter is being screamingly funny but all you hear is 'demonization'.

And Ann is entirely willing to love you as a fellow fallen human, she dates liberals after all. They almost have an equal shot at a date. Undeserved kindness is a trait of the happy God who has a great sense of humor. But some see him all doom and vengeful. Well that's just a tiny and regrettably necessary part of the iceberg.

It's really really dark seeing the toxic relationship Walk is falling for, but knowing how crazy that is doesn't prevent me from indulging in a bitterweet and genuinely sympathetic wink.
 
366Boldwin
      ID: 111025184
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 08:42
Bill Ayers teaching Chicago OWS how to revolution.

To paraphrase: Wow, Obama is sending drones to kill american citizen terrorists.

And you expect us to be non-violent?
 
367Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 08:51
Ann Coulter is being screamingly funny...

i didn't realize the definition of "screamingly" was "not".
 
368Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 10:46
she dates liberals after all.

That's because a girl's gotta eat.
 
369Boldwin
      ID: 111025184
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 11:16
How many best sellers do you think it takes before you turn a profit?
 
370Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 11:39
You can turn a profit without being a best seller. The entire poetry publishing business is built on it, in fact.

That all said, you probably don't want to go down the path of thinking that sales (particularly among the self-pleasuring conservative media) translate into "truth."
 
371walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 11:43
#365, I think your characterizations are far darker (and condescending, wink-wink), if "darkness" is the barometer. What I cannot fall for, is your scant data; it is not at all compelling. [It is cynical, suspicious, and consistent with various other conspiracy theory viewpoints.] It also indicates no intimate knowledge with the organizations you criticize. The income inequality to which the Occupy movement is most concerned has little do do with your conspiracy theory, and the organization you criticize seems to actually work in ways to mitigate the 99:1 situation (e.g. enforcing regulations to ensure organizations do not continue to take advantage of consumers, reward whacky risk, create/trade esoteric worthless products).
 
372Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 11:49
Maybe Coulter is taking lessons from Mitt--on Mitt.
 
373Boldwin
      ID: 111025184
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 11:50
Ahh, inflation works great for the 99% then. I see.
 
374Boldwin
      ID: 111025184
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 12:00
Because that's all the Fed is good at. We all sit listening to the chairman of the Fed's impenetrable jargon for any hint of when they intend to inflate the next bubble so we can time the market, meanwhile the Fed shareholders can just beat us to the counter everytime. And everytime a recession hits which they created, they knew when to build up cash reserves for the firesale to follow.

And we do the fireselling.

But what do I know.
 
375walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 13:07
Nothing.
 
376Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 13:10
Heh. Boldwin likes to point out how the strings of government are pulled by the wealthy non-elected, but he refuses to find common cause with the dirty members of OWS because that would give him liberal cooties. Or something.
 
377Building 7
      ID: 541057215
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 14:04
#347 There's some interesting stuff in those videos. They're saying, if everybody paid off all their debts, then all the money would disappear. Because when money is created in this country it is offset by an equal amount of debt. Why don't we create money and not go into debt to some murky 3rd party outfit. Why would we want to do that anyways?

97% of our money is digital. Only 3% of our money can be removed from the banks? What could go wrong?

So they create debt to create the money, but then there is not enough money to pay back all the debt plus interest, because they only created the debt for the principal amount. Where will the money come from to pay the interest?

I think debt is bad. It is a last resort, it is to be avoided. I'm in the minority with this opinion in 2011. I suspect that those who respond to disagree with me have at least one maxed out creidt card. I'll check back in 5 or 10 years and see what develops.
 
378Building 7
      ID: 541057215
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 14:22
VP Biden says he called Jon Corzine for advice about the economy



Now we know why the economy is so messed up.
 
379walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 14:29
#377, I disagree with you and do not have any max'd out credit cards. I pay off my cards monthly. There is responsible debt and irresponsible debt. Most debates have shades of gray; this is one of them.

Do you have a mortgage? If not, do you know anyone you respect who does? Home ownership is one form of debt. While some folks (and quite a few in the housing crisis) bought homes that were beyond their means, most home owners throughout the ages in the US can make their payments.

Do you now, or ever had, college loans? That's another form of debt. While many of the OWS crowd are protesting that crazy college tuition coupled with a lousy job market are making the repayment of loans very challenging, the ability for one to attend college via a loan program is another common tool used by our population.

Do you use a credit card and then pay it off on time? Do you know anyone you respect who does? I think there's a large number of people of responsibly use their credit cards.

What our government has done around debt is debatable. We should not have cut taxes in the early 2000s and started prolonged wars without budgeting $ to pay for them. We should not have extended the tax cuts; we should raise revenues and cut spending to curb our now excessive debt.
 
380boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 14:30
B7 not sure that is going to work out to well for you when everyone elses debt gets inflated away.
 
381Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 19:07
Hey walk. How you been doing? Can you see OWS where you work?

Yeah, I have a mortgage. It's pretty much a last resort if you want to own a house. Plus it was my wife's idea. And she makes more than me. Fixin' to get rid of it, though. I don't like borrowing money. Maybe it's the german in me. I have a 0% car loan. No reason to pay that off. Just because you can borrow moey does not mean you should borrow money. For many people it's: If you can borrow money....do it. And if you can still borrow money....do it again. And so on.
 
382Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 19:22
I paid off my mortgage 3 years ago. Both my vehicles are paid for. I only use debit cards, not credit cards(which limits what car rental companies you can use - Enterprise works for me).

For many years my disposable income went to double mortgage payments. Now, my disposable income goes towards golf.

I'd like to see more responsible government spending, but realize that in recessive economic times, deficit spending is sometimes necessary to stimulate the economy. The 2009 stimulus probably avoided a catastrophic economic disaster in this country, although way too much was focused on areas that didn't promote long term job growth or long term economic health for the country. Still, because that stimulus had flaws doesn't mean the concept is flawed.
 
384Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 12:16
In Rothschild we trust, eh Walk?

Eh, Boldwin?

The Rothschild's had long had a plan to create a personal fiefdom for themselves and the Illuminati in Palestine and that plan involved manipulating Jewish people to settle the area as their "homeland." Charles Taze Russell, of the Illuminati-reptilian Russell bloodline, was the man who founded the Watchtower Society, better known as the Jehovah's Witnesses. He was a Satanist, a pedophile according to his wife, and most certainly Illuminati. His new "religion (mind-control cult) was funded by the Rothschild's and he was a friend of theirs, just like the founders of the Mormons who were also Rothschild-funded through Kuhn, Loeb, and Co. Russell and the Mormon founders were all Freemasons. In 1880, Charles Taze Russell, this friend of the Rothschild's, predicted that the Jews would return to their homeland. It was about the only prediction Russell ever got right. Why? Because he knew that was the plan. He wrote to the Rothschild's praising their efforts to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

link

Wow! The founder of the JWs a Satanist and a Rothschild lackey. Who knew?
 
385Boldwin
      ID: 910491911
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 13:19
Virtually all disinformation. He was in it because he investigated all religions as a youth before settling on christianity. People who are in it virtually never get to the top of it and find out the darkness at the top. He was just a casual member like plenty of others. He was asked how important it was and he said he didn't see how it could make you a better christian so it was just a useless diversion.

There were serious freemasons waiting in the wings to take it over when he died, but for once their usual modus operandi didn't work as they were outmanuevered.

You can tell the relationship between secret societies and JW's by how quickly the entire headquarters was put in federal penitentiary by a knight of pythias federal judge just after Russell died.

That doesn't happen to those who are 'with the program'.

Further around that time there was a historian named Alexander Hyslop who exposed the Babylonian roots of mystery religion like freemasons. He wrote a book called 'The Two Babylons' which is the finest vehicle to help someone escape the freemasons ever written.

Altho he was a Lutheran minister we were the only publishers he could find who would publish his book.

No other organized religion of that time accepted his expose and removed all traces of babylonish religion such as holidays with babylonish roots.

We contend that prior to 1914 all religions including our own were contaminated by mystery religion and we are the only ones who managed to break free, just as the Jews managed to escape babylon after a long period of captivity.[there are a lot of type/antitype things like that in the Bible]

 
386sarge33rd
      ID: 910201912
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 13:20
An Illuminati (ie Mason) and a pedophile to boot. Good choice there Boldwin.
 
387Boldwin
      ID: 910491911
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 13:31
PV

And don't tell me you believe in reptilian bloodlines, heh!
 
388Boldwin
      ID: 910491911
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 13:36
Ridiculous charges. You have nothing.
 
389Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 13:49
Ridiculous charges. You have nothing.

That could very well be. They're not my charges. They're simply something I found on an internet site on the Rothschilds. From another Rothschild site.

2001: On September 11th the attack on the World Trade Center is orchestrated by Israel with the complicity of Britain and America, under the orders of the Rothschilds as a pretext for removing the liberty of people worldwide in exchange for security, just as happened with the Reichstag fire in Germany where the citizens were lied to in order to give up liberty for security.

They also will use the attacks to gain control of the few nations in the world who don’t allow Rothschild central banks and so less than one month after these attacks, US forces attack Afghanistan, one of only 7 nations in the world who don’t have a Rothschild controlled central bank.


 
390bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 14:03
These people who claim the Rothschilds are behind all these conspiracies sound like nut jobs to me.
 
391Boldwin
      ID: 3110101913
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 14:12
bibA

It's what the 'rich-as-god' do. They've already done hedonism to death ten generations ago. They've moved on to playing god.
 
392Boldwin
      ID: 3110101913
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 14:15
And you should care less for sounding conventional.

The phrase conventional wisdom was coined by Bill Buckley's close friend John Kenneth Galbraith to insult the closed minded.
 
393Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 14:32
It would be refreshing if Boldwin apllied the same standard he does in #385(a subject where he actually has expertise) instead of buying hook, line and sinker and reposting preposterous allegations about subjects where he relies 100% on internet sites which usually have questionable, at best, journalistic integrity.
 
394Boldwin
      ID: 4810471913
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 14:47
I've been researching the way the world really works night and day for fifteen years and I can really seperate the wheat from the chaff.

I didn't just stumble on a website and regurgitate it. I've been on this subject like a pitbull for years until I wrapped my mind around it fully.
 
395Canadian Hack
      ID: 164132618
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 15:27
Baldwin

We have read your research for many years. Your statement is a brilliant example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
 
396Boldwin
      ID: 2110311914
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 15:33
Your timing always amazes me Hack. How does that freemason bat-signal work exactly?
 
397Boldwin
      ID: 2110311914
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 15:58
I've got my own effect to introduce.

Whenever someone gets really good at seeing thru the matrix and past the obstructions put up by people like Hack, they get deluged with disinformation.

Thus it is that someone like David Ickes who has really pieced together a lot of the puzzle, has also been led down the primrose path on issues like UFO's and aliens and sadly he'll never see past the disinfo they threw at him regarding my religion. They especially don't want him putting those 2's together and doing the math.

Sad, cause he's really good on quite a few issues.

An even sadder case is Jeff Wells of Rigorous Intuition fame. That guy is just amazing. He's like a poet for the ages with cultural x-ray vision. But there again someone fed him some ancient lame disinfo about us and he never looked any deeper into it.

The corrupters are veeery good at disinfo. They invented it. They'll find your weakness. And they really jump on anyone who is waking up from their spell.
 
398Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:16
Here's how the world really works:

Claiming "I'm a great researcher" and other self-laudatory proclamations actually reduce your credibility, not enhance it.
 
399Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:20
Blaming "disinformation" for their own mistakes? Are they unable to make their own mistakes without having to pass along the blame onto others?

Next time I make a mistake, I'll just blame the "disinformation" thrown up by others as the reason I don't otherwise have a perfect record.
 
400Boldwin
      ID: 2110311914
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:21
Yeah yeah, pride before the fall and all that. Applies to me too.

At least recognize I've been weighing that issue for a long long time and I didn't just google the Fed or Rothschild and post the first link.

 
401Boldwin
      ID: 2110311914
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:23
Too many cross-posts. 400 was to 398. 388 was to 386.
 
402Boldwin
      ID: 2110311914
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:30
Blaming "disinformation" for their own mistakes? - PD

Nope. Disinformation is false. As we learned from satan's apologist Alinsky...one of his favorite tactics is to blame his enemies with the very thing they would be most horrified of and are innocent of.

Jesus being accused of blasphemy for example.
 
403Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:34
In your #397, you blamed the mistakes of two people on "disinformation."

Sorry, but that is a crock. False information exists on literally every topic. When people make mistakes by passing along or believing false information (such as "death panels in the health care bill!") we blame the person for making the mistake, not the disinformation for having been picked up in the first place.

That is, after all, what responsible people would do.

No one is mistake-free, which is why it is important to place blame, when needed, at the place it will do the most good.
 
404Boldwin
      ID: 2110311914
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:47
I have sympathy for people of good will who just happen to fall for it when they are surrounded by devious people with hidden agendas, superhuman liars, etc.

Like you falling for:

'there's no abortion funding in there'.

'this won't give illegal aliens free healthcare'

'there's no death panels in here'.
 
405sarge33rd
      ID: 910201912
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:52
from 402:...one of his favorite tactics is to blame his enemies with the very thing they would be most horrified of and are innocent of.

Ummm, is this not the normal MO for B, as it pertains to ANYTHING without "(R)" after it?
 
406Boldwin
      ID: 2110311914
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 16:54
Or maybe I should blame you for falling for those lies. Because I really believe you will be perfectly happy with all three of those outcomes and you've already written your acceptance speech for the inevitable day when the truth become obvious and an honest person would be apologizing.
 
407sarge33rd
      ID: 910201912
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 17:08
oh, well then by all means...please tell me where the hell I PUT the speech.

See, there IS no abortion funding there. (Hasnt been Fed funds for that in a VERY long time)

It WONT give illegals coverage. It specifically EXCLUDES them.

There ARE no death panels. The verbiage, is virtually identical to the Rep bill expanding medi-care. That verbiage was used, SPECIFICALLY to preclude such an asinine allegation.

But B, we all know, the truth shall never deter you. Nor, will Christian conduct, ever get in your way of spreading falsehoods about ANYTHING Democrat.
 
408Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 17:47
I've been researching the way the world really works night and day for fifteen years and I can really seperate the wheat from the chaff.

I didn't just stumble on a website and regurgitate it. I've been on this subject like a pitbull for years until I wrapped my mind around it fully.


yes. of course. you're a genius.

meanwhile, posts 384 and 389 give a lot of credit to why YOU harassed me about my religion.
 
409Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 18:40
Incredible video:

 
410Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 19:30
a despicable act.

the power of the camera as a weapon to report the truth is amazing here. in this clip, there are moments where you can see dozens of people filming these events.

to me, that is a stark difference between this and protests in the past. everything, is there, for everyone to see.
 
411Canadian Hack
      ID: 164132618
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 19:39
Baldwin

I will just point out two obvious research errors you have made. The following two characters that appear in your post 402: 1. satan 2. Jesus (as anything more than a non-descript preacher who may have existed but wasn't important enough to appear in the Roman records who died nearly 2000 years ago)

Please correct these errors in the future.
 
412Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 20:02
I watched that video today, nice work by the protestors and a wise move by the police to get out after the stupid order to pepper spray those people.

And, MITH, you are NOT Rob Base :)
 
413Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 20:54
But I came to get down!




Damn international notoriety.
 
414TB
      ID: 451028614
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 21:49
The guy who decided it was okay to pepper spray peaceful protesters should be charged with a crime. That was terrible.
 
415Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 21:52
Hey, Hack: How about we cease both gratuitous Jesus references and gratuitous Jesus-denying references? I'm just sayin'...
 
416Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 22:21
If Occupy Wall Street actually were looking for a leader, they should look at Ellen Brown.

Money quote:

Congress could go further: it could reclaim the power to issue money from the banks and fund its budget directly. It could do this, in fact, without changing any laws. Congress is empowered to “coin money,” and the Constitution sets no limit on the face amount of the coins. Congress could issue a few one-trillion dollar coins, deposit them in an account, and start writing checks.
 
417Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 00:10
I believe that the amount (that is, the total value) of coins is regulated by law. I suppose that Congress would have to get rid of that as well, but would run the risk of sudden hyper-inflation should there suddenly be a money supply twice as large.
 
419Boldwin
      ID: 361015204
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 07:17
Tea Party vs OWS
 
420Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 10:19


the student respond to UC Davis Chancellor Linda Katehi. truly remarkable.

and slightly more relevant than the perplexing Stevie Ray Vaughan video posted in 419.
 
421Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 10:32
Occupy UC Davis could sure teach a thing or two to a lot of the Occupy Oaklanders.
 
422Boldwin
      ID: 361015204
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 11:49
Save the strong, lose the weak, rest of us stranded, caught in the crossfire.
 
423Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 11:56
Interview with pepper-sprayed UC Davis student.
 
424Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 12:01
Portland:

link to the photo, as the image comes across as huge when linked directly here.)
 
425Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 12:02
Save the strong, lose the weak, rest of us stranded, caught in the crossfire.

i guess that's your problem. in your paranoid world, it's your version of "us" vs a perpetually changing "them"
 
426Canadian Hack
      ID: 164132618
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 14:11
PermDude

I have no problem not bringing up any imaginary characters as long as no great "researchers" are on here invoking them as the reason for their questionable view of reality.

Afterall I dont find Gandalf the Grey or C3PO have much to do with Occupy Wall Street.
 
427Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 15:14
Jesus has a lot to do with how the Right operates, however. Refusing to understand that is, at best, silly.

And frankly, I'd rather not hear about your problem with religion.
 
428Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 15:14
I'd bet a well-programmed protocol droid would be quite useful to the movement.
 
429sarge33rd
      ID: 910201912
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 15:20
Actually PD, I think Jesus has very little to do with how the right operates. Now, the rights VERSION of Jesus, has a lot to do with how they operate.
 
430Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 15:32
Same thing, Sarge. Pretending he is not useful to a conversation about the Right is like saying that a knowledge of rights is unuseful to talking about the Left.

Whether the Right is on target about Jesus or not doesn't make him moot.
 
431sarge33rd
      ID: 910201912
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 15:38
Valid point.
 
432Canadian Hack
      ID: 164132618
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 16:56
Their version of Jesus - which has nothing to do with the historical Jesus if one existed - does have a lot to do with how the right operates and that is why they are so far off track right now. You cannot expect to get much correct if you base your worldview on your imaginary friend.
 
433Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 18:01
although it's getting off topic, even a non-believer like myself finds the whole "imaginary friend" attitude to be offensive. it's no different than when Baldwin rips into Muslims for their beliefs.

it also helps prevent the conversation from progressing. accept that much of the right's politics these days seem to be based on their religious beliefs - no matter how misinterpreted they might be - and one can move forward in conversation.
 
434Boldwin
      ID: 2310542014
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 18:39
Let's get this straight. I didn't even bring Jesus into this discussion.

PV accidentally ran into what he thot was the ultimate religious gotcha and sprung it on me, and then the anti/non-religious trolls came out of the woodwork in droves to thrill us with their religious expertise.
 
435Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 19:31
PV accidentally ran into what he thot was the ultimate religious gotcha

No, I've been researching the way the world really works night and day for fifteen years and I can really separate the wheat from the chaff.



 
436DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Nov 20, 2011, 19:32
Well, counter-trolling the ultimate religious troll is just doing God's work (ironically enough).

Applause, Hack.
 
437Boldwin
      ID: 2310542014
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 01:04
As long as the trolls just won't drop the drift, I'll take the time to point out that Stevie Ray Vaughn just casually carries on chewin his tobacco while reeling off that brilliant thing. I give him extra points for being able to carry it off live. Really wish I could still do that. Really do.
 
438Canadian Hack
      ID: 164132618
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 01:32
Baldwin and I have a lot in common. We agree that all the gods that have been worshipped over the years are non-existent and worthy of ridicule (i.e. imaginary friends). We only have one disagreement on this topic. He doesn't go as far as including his god up to the same logical scrutiny.

The problem is he bases his entire worldview around this imaginary god of his. At worst it makes him horribly wrong. In a best case he can be right but for the wrong reasons.
 
439Boldwin
      ID: 2310542014
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 08:09
You know I also believe in the existence of angels and Satan and his fallen angels, right?

I don't think there would be the incredible level of evil in the world without that Satanic influence.

Do you really believe people are this evil on their own?
 
440Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 08:44
Do you really believe people are this evil on their own?

Yes.
 
441Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 09:33
Do you really believe people are this evil on their own?

yes.
 
442bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 09:38
Do you really believe people are this evil on their own?

Gotta agree with Khahan on this one. I just do not believe there is a little red devil holding a pitchfork sitting on anyone's shoulder.
 
443Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 10:58
Pepper spraying cop
 
444Boldwin
      ID: 2310542014
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 14:34
Yet you believe mankind is perfectible. Tho innately evil. I'm quite certain yer liberal founding father Rouseau disagrees.

Anyway, back to OWS please.

 
445sarge33rd
      ID: 201042113
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 14:37
People in our society, have long ago learned to be inherently selfish. A trait, which gets passed from generation to generation, when we teach our kids that the size of their bank account determines their lvl of success.
 
446sarge33rd
      ID: 201042113
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 15:10
Wall Street has CLEARLY taken notice of OWS:

$850,000 lobbying firms proposal to counter act OWS
 
447DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 15:18
Semi-apropos of this thread, XKCD with one of their awesome charts:

http://xkcd.com/980/

Click on the actual cartoon to get a much bigger, zoomable version.
 
448Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 15:51
Newt channels Boldwin.
 
449Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 15:56
Why they are there: Part 2046: Woman ineligible for food stamps because of fraud, while Citi gets billions despite serial fraud charges.
 
450Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 15:57
And just to make it clear: I'm not saying the woman should get food stamps. I'm saying that the same standard should apply to all.

That that is what OWS is about.
 
451DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 00:05
Someday, I'll learn to embed images on here. Until then:

link
 
452Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 01:14
Right-click on the image you want to embed. Properties. Copy the URL. Type the following into the message field at Rotoguru:

(img src=pasteURLhere)

Except, instead of ( and ), use < and >.
 
453DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 01:34
 
454DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 01:35
Yay!
 
455Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 10:51
Check out some of these "Helpful Customer Reviews", they are classic!

Defense Technology 56895 MK-9 Stream, 1.3% Red Band/1.3% Blue Band Pepper Spray
 
456Boldwin
      ID: 221047234
      Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 11:26
Ok, That's a hoot!
 
457Building 7
      ID: 541057215
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 17:04


Professor Black holds duel PhD’s in economics and law, but he is not just some run-of-the-mill academic. Professor Black is also a former bank regulator who spearheaded the cleanup of the S&L crisis. In a speech Black gave last week, he said, “In the Savings and Loans crisis, the inevitable National Commission said that fraud was invariably present at the typical large failure. In the Enron era, always frauds from the very top of the organization, and in this crisis the frauds came from the very top of the organization again. But what’s different in this crisis? In this crisis, the same agency that I worked with that made over 10,000 criminal referrals in a tinier crisis made zero criminal referrals. They got rid of the entire function. And so there are zero convictions of anybody in the elite ranks of Wall Street. And if they can defraud us with impunity they will cause crisis after crisis and they will produce maximum inequality. . . . And that’s why we have a crisis and it came from the very top of these organizations, and it went through—as the FHFA said in its complaint—the largest banks in the world were endemically fraudulent. It is not a few rotten apples. It is an orchard of one percenters who are rotten to the core
 
458Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 18:12
Interesting.

If there is anything at all we can draw from the financial crisis, it is that they are simply unable to regulate themselves. Sadly, one of the reasons the financial crisis was so high was the belief, in the last administration, that if we scale back the costs of businesses having to deal with government oversight that the self-regulation functions would be taken over by the industry and everyone would win.

Man did we get spanked.
 
459sarge33rd
      ID: 010232811
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 18:41
Michael Douglas, WALLSTREET..."greed....is good....". BS
 
460Boldwin
      ID: 1510432817
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 18:55
I have to say that fallen mankind is not likely to resist the chance to make a lifetime's income in one easy sale, even when he knows the product will self-destruct in five seconds.

The derivative market is under-regulated and poorly understood by those who are responsible to formulate regulation. We are mistaken if we feel it's been fixed. Instead of unwinding them as they should have, we still have derivatives out there leveraged higher than the wealth of the entire planet and implicitly backed by the western banking system, too big to fail and too big to backstop.
 
461Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 19:29
"So at the moment anyway, I mean I don't know what's going to happen in New York today, but at the moment I'm not really worried of a movement like SDS which really swept a lot of the college campuses... taking over. Of course if it does, just remember the lesson from my book: it just took a few shootings at Kent State to shut that down for good.

This is the first time they got bullets back... and that put an end to the protests pretty quickly." - Ann Coulter, as evil a person as exists in America
 
462Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 19:37
Mobs can get ugly. Mob control as well.

These OWS in Seattle were carrying machetes and body armor. Don't expect the police to play pinata. I mean the role of the pinata.
 
463Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 19:52
These OWS in Seattle were carrying machetes and body armor.

You were fine with Tea Party gatherers carrying guns. If it were up to Coulter, there would be at least 4 dead OWS gatherers, not necessarily the ones with machetes. And you expect us to believe you're an advocate of free republics?
 
464Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 20:14
Plenty of these radicals are hoping for violent revolution. Anyone hanging with them risks hanging with them.
 
465biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 20:47
You have finally opened your eyes to the true intentions of the teabaggers!
 
466Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 21:22
Imagine if they threw a OWS and they left it cleaner than they found it instead of leaving 30 tons of garbage and feces.

Keep it up.
 
467sarge33rd
      ID: 510433010
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 23:24
link

That right there, all by itself, justifies the OWS movement.
 
468Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 00:19
and just when you think he cant top himself, Baldwin supports the shooting of American citizens by the US Military.
 
469Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 02:23
See the problem is that if you are stupid enuff to march with anarchists they just might precipitate a massacre for their own propaganda benefit and you might be the sacrifice.
 
470sarge33rd
      ID: 510433010
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 02:29
But that doesnt pertain to the Tea Partiers who brought firearms to where the Pres was speaking.....why exactly?
 
471Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 04:09
Careful, sarge--those anarchists are some year going to prove Boldwin right about his fear mongering. And if they don't they can still be counted on for being "dirty" and "liberal."

Its a win-win for non-thinking conservatives who pride themselves on independently never letting a moment go by where they can't defend The Man and the status quo.
 
472Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 09:15
and just when you think he cant top himself, Baldwin supports the shooting of American citizens by the US Military.
 
473Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 10:06
See the problem is that if you are stupid enuff to march with anarchists they just might precipitate a massacre for their own propaganda benefit and you might be the sacrifice.

No, the problem is that when you defend Ann Coulter advocating the shooting of unarmed students at Kent State as an important lesson from her book(one of them, honors student Sandra Scheuer, wasn't even protesting, she was walking to class)you forfeit any claim to represent anything other than the evil you insist you
oppose.
What we have here is a case of blind allegiance to Ann Coulter of all people. There's no thought process involved that possibly Coulter is way off base in her statement. And it's blind allegiance that leads to death camps and crushing dictatorships, so spare us further attempts to paint yourself as a defender of honorable principles.

The farce is that I don't believe for a minute that you or Coulter actually support the killing of unarmed students as a lesson to be utilized in the current OWS movements. So what's the point, other than to display an acceptance of a fascist police state as a viable reaction to opposing political views?
 
474DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 10:20
It's obvious that you're all fools for attempting to have a rational discussion, by the way. Mockery is the only sincere form of mockery at this point.
 
475Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 11:32
Imagine if they threw a OWS and they left it cleaner than they found it instead of leaving 30 tons of garbage and feces.

Imagine if our miltary industrial complex sprayed nearly 20,000,000 US gallons (75,700,000 L) of chemical herbicides and defoliants in Vietnam, eastern Laos and parts of Cambodia, as part of Operation Ranch Hand.[3][4] The program's goal was to defoliate forested and rural land, depriving guerrillas of cover; another goal was to induce forced draft urbanization, destroying the ability of peasants to support themselves in the countryside, and forcing them to flee to the U.S. dominated cities, thus depriving the guerrillas of their rural support base and food supply.[4][5]

Imagine if 400,000 people were killed or maimed, and 500,000 children born with birth defects.

Imagine 12 percent of the total area of South Vietnam being sprayed with defoliating chemicals, more than 20% of South Vietnam's forests sprayed at least once over a nine year period.[5]

Imagine the rapid flow of people led to a fast-paced and uncontrolled urbanization; an estimated 1.5 million people living in Saigon slums, while many South Vietnamese elites and U.S. personnel lived in luxury.


link

Imagine unarmed students protesting these atrocities being shot and killed as a lesson from my[Ann Coulter's] book.
 
476walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 11:52
Bam! PV again. The bigger pic.
 
477Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 23:39
Imagine life in a Viet Nam communist death camp.

Imagine Hmong villagers being butchered and refugees forced to return by the west being killed as they return.

Thanks liberals.
 
478Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 00:37
Imagine Baldwin approving the execution of innocent US Citizens. never mind, you don't have to imagine it. he practically begs for such a thing.

yet he worships at the alter of Terri Schiavo.
 
479boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 15:09
Wait till the OWS crowd hears about his one: Bank bail out included a secret 7trillion in loans that included undisclosed bank profits.

A new report by Bloomberg Markets Magazine details trillions of dollars in secret federal loans made to the big banks during the 2008 financial crisis, a process that helped them rake in billions of dollars in undisclosed profits.
 
480Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Mon, Dec 26, 2011, 23:13
"See the violence inherent in the system?"
 
483Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Dec 27, 2011, 12:57
A perfect example of what happens when you fail to provide decent housing and treatment for you mentally ill.

I don't know about Eugene, but Seattle's occupy movement has been nearly entirely co-opted by the homeless, 80% of whom suffer from mental illness.

These sorts of murders happen with high frequency among the homeless population. You usually see the media, particularly mainstream rightwing media, strenuously ignoring that violence. Unless, as is in this case, it serves their masters' ends.
 
484Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Wed, Dec 28, 2011, 16:37
I have your encouragement to label the OWS movement as mainly deranged then?
 
485biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Jan 14, 2012, 09:54
Seattle Churches, calling BofA sinful, yank their funds.
 
486Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 00:27
 
487sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 13:14
Another OWS point, is that the free market itself, is broken.

For the 4rd time (at east the 3rd time) over the past 6 years, gas proces are artificially inflated due to SPECULATORS, and have nothing to do with supply and demand:

Gas prices at pump, at record highs for this time of year

Retail gas prices are at their highest levels ever for this time of year despite ample supplies and declining demand. That's because tension in the Persian Gulf has kept crude oil prices around $100 per barrel for most of the month.


Hard to understand how a broken mechanism, can be claimed to be the remedy for what ails our economy.
 
488Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 19:23
What's broken about it? If someone puts a knife to the throat of the goose that lays golden eggs, the price of golden eggs is gonna jump. Same as it ever was.
 
489Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 19:36
Uh, right. Oil and gas speculation is all about perceived takings from the wealthy...
 
490sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 19:46
Whats broken? When you cry FOR the free market, you also use terms like "supply and demand". Except that when it comes to commodities, it is neither supply, nor demand, that sets the pricing. It is the fear or confidence of speculators, about what things might be like, in 90 days. That fear + crystal ball, is what sets todays prices. Nothing to do with supply (which is up) or demand (which is down) yet prices are at a record high for this time of year.
 
491Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 19:52
I'm shorting oil. And you too can join the speculators!

Despite what Maria cantwell says, I don't thing speculators actually drive the price, beyond short-term, unsustainable blips.
 
492sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Jan 21, 2012, 20:12
Speculators drove the price surge in 2006 and again in 2008 and again in 2010.
 
493boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 13:53
I thought this myth had already been debunked earlier?
 
494sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 14:00
myth? dbunked? it's been adequately demonstrated to NOT be a myth at all, but reality.
 
495Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 14:11
News to me.

Explain how speculators are driving up oil prices beyond what the market would be asking without speculators? Isn't everyone in the market in some sense a "speculator"?
 
496sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 14:33
GROSS over simplification:

Futures traders get scared of future supply and bid up the price.

Price of crude rises on the exchange.

Gas Station, can nopt sell existing stock at current price and have cash to refill underground tanks, so pump price rises.


MULTIPLE studies have been conducted, and shown this to be the case.

 
497sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 14:40
link

linked to by the above

cato claiming the opposite

However, CATO is wrong. They insist that supply and demand sets the price. Why then with demand up and supply down, are prices at record highs for this time of year? The simple reality, denies the claim and exposes it for the falsehood that it is.
 
498sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 15:02
quote from 1st link above:

The CEO of Exxon-Mobil recently said that Wall Street speculation was driving up the price of oil by 40 percent and that the true production price of oil is $60 to $70 a barrel and not $90 as they are today. Exxon-Mobil’s predictions would translate into prices at the pump of between $2.56 and $2.77 per gallon.

Insider evaluation anyone?
 
499Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 15:33
Doesn't what speculator is willing to pay reflect true demand, with a temporal component built in?

Am I a speculator when I fill up my truck now even though I have half a tank, because I think it will be 20 cents pricier in a couple weeks?
 
500Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 17:00
Sarge is railing about Arbitragers and day traders, not the accounts who hedge their risk by buying oil futures and actually USE them like airlines. I don't care enough about this issue to read Sarge's report, but I'd wager that there is no distinction made between these types of "speculators".

Then I would arbitrage this position in the Rotoguru Futures market. ;)
 
501sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 19:31
Actually, there is a distinction made. The leading buyer and seller of oil on the planet? Has no oil tanks, no fleets, no use other than to buy/sell the commodity: JP Morgan Bank.
 
502sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 19:50
JP Morgans own website

...we are one of the largest natural gas traders in the U.K. and European markets, with daily volumes of approximately 100 million therms.

Granted, they are talking there about natural gas vs crude oil however; do you relly think that buying and selling 100,000,000 units DAILY, doesnt play with pricing????
 
503Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 21:12
Uh... That is how markets are made. A reasonably efficient market requires high volume of trade.
 
504Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Tue, Jan 24, 2012, 08:06
So the CEO of Exxon-Mobile is spinning the fact that gas prices are higher then they need to be on traders, not on his company. Not a bad play on his part.

As far as the free market goes, I agree with Bili, that is how it works. If the price was to high, people would stop paying for it. We complain about the price being to high, but how many people are driving a car that is much larger then they really need. Look at the difference in the size of cars in Europe vs the US. Why aren't more people demanding smaller more efficient cars? People complain about the price of gas and then turn around and buy a huge SUV that gets 18mpg.

If you looked at the biggest trader of almost any commodity, you would probably find they have no ownership in the actual field. Oil is not an exception, rather the norm.
 
505Boikin roaming
      ID: 237522111
      Tue, Jan 24, 2012, 15:51
Sarge you do realize when oil futures get bid up many of these speculators end up losing tons of money when prices end up not reaching that price? Under your theory the speculators would have reason to ever not bid up the price.
 
506Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Tue, Jan 24, 2012, 16:46
Sarge is right this time.
 
507sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Tue, Jan 24, 2012, 18:24
Can hardly believe it, butdefender is Boldwin?!?!?!? Who'd have thunk?

Thing is, he is right..I AM right on this one. Like it, dont like it, doesnt matter. The facts are there fr all to see and even the speculators, will tell you they are doing exactly what I and others alledge, and HAVE done so, for this being at least the 3rd time in the past decade.
 
508Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 00:05
I actually agree with Sarge on this one, too. Speculators are the middleman controlling the price of oil. They treat it as a commodity rather than a resource.

Not saying they are right or wrong for doing this. But if you want to know why prices are skyhigh, ask the speculators who are buying up all the oil then selling it to oil companies at prices they can help fix.

Wow, sarge, baldwin and I all agreeing. Break out the arctic clothing, its getting pretty cold out there.
 
509Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 08:39
Most of the oil companies are vertically integrated so the the middleman driving up the commodity trading prices gives them even more profit. Their cost might be $60/barrel, but why should they sell to their stores for that price if the market has driven the price to $100/barrel.
 
510biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 08:52
I'm struggling to understand why anyone would pay more than they think oil is worth from just non-speculative market forces.

Sarge says these blips have happened three times in the last decade, right? So the smart money would be shorting, because it's unsustainable. That would serve to drive the price down (and as a disclosure, what I am currently doing).
 
511Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 09:04
Bili,

I do agree that paying more than the real value is a terrible idea and a good opportunity for shorting. But, I don't think that US commodity traders are the main driver in the price. There are emerging markets that are increasing demand. While the US has been historically the biggest consumer and driver of demand, I don't think the US has that type of stranglehold on demand. China, Brazil and India are three markets that are growing and increasing demand. China and India could both dwarf the US some day, that is what is driving the price of oil higher IMO.
 
512biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 09:22
That's a more reasonable argument. Can someone who has been demonizing speculators, provide some reasoning for paying too much, from these demon's perspectives?
 
513sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 13:10
"Emerging markets", is the argument made by those who claim the aspeculators are innocent. However, the US cponsumes roughly 25% of the worlds oil. Emerging markets, will take 20 years to catch up to that level of consumption.

link

As for why the speculatirts "pay more" than a commodity is worth? They dont. They drive the proce up, and up and up. Yes, eventually, it will become unsustainable. But what cost must be born by the concumer, and for how long, until that bubble bursts?

Each bubble, tech, housing, oil....is a self created opportunbity BY the "obscenely rich", to make themselves even richer, at the expense of the middle class.
 
514sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 13:15
damn typos....
 
515boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 13:51
I have an easy solution for you: Drive less.
 
516DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 13:56
"I have an easy solution for you -- restructure your entire life! It's easy!"

Fixed your quote.
 
517Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 14:23
Re: 514

Look at my post 504, American's haven't shown a willingness to significantly lower our consumption, so why should the prices drop? Consumers have shown a willingness to continue to pay for gas. Has the US seen a drastic drop in miles driven over the last 10 years despite gas prices tripling? Have we seen an increase in car pooling or people looking to move closer to their jobs so they don't need to commute as far?

Moving closer to a job isn't a short-term solution, but it might be over the long term. Are we seeing more housing being built closer to jobs or do we see more urban sprawl with longer commutes?
 
518boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 14:55
Its simple supply and demand that is causeing prices swings so says new article in Nature
 
519Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 15:58
517 - Seattle has been making a half-hearted stab and increasing density where jobs are, as well as providing reasonable, though not particularly comprehensive alternatives to driving, including funding decent transit and tossing a few bucks to bike and pedestrian infrastructure. The result is that miles driven has been declining since the 90s even with population growth.

It only takes providing alternatives and people jump at the chance. No one likes sitting in traffic.
 
520sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 17:00
It would be difficult, to drive less than I do. I didnt log 6,000 miles in 2011, despite moving 2500 miles.
 
521Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 18:07
I have put about 3k a year on truck for the last 6 years despite working more than 10 miles away.

Before that I drove even less.

Before that I went carless for 7 years.
 
522Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 18:54
Supply and demand has 2 parts boikin. We as consumers affect the demand. Driving less will bring down the demand.

However the speculators are working on the supply end. They control the supply and we as consumers have not a word to say about that.

Speculators are banking on things like the problems in the Straight of Hormuz, invading Libya etc to affect the supply and are speculating it will have a big enough affect that buying 10,000,000 barrels at $100 will cut into the supply making those who will actually use the oil buy for $105 a barrell. Well now that supplier has 10,000,000 x $5 profit.

This all happens long before it reaches the consumer. A bit over simplistic, but all I'm trying to do is illustrate the principle. Not offer a full blown explanation of the economics.
 
523sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 19:04
I would dare say Bili, that my 3500 miles/yr and your 3k; are FAR below the "norm" of approx 16,500.
 
524Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 19:27
The thing is that speculators actually don't effect the supply. They have interest in maintaining huge tanks and taking possession of oil. The are just betting on it going up or down. I suppose their may be exceptions, but that's why the whole speculator argument falls apart. It doesn't materially affect the quantity of oil for sale.
 
525Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 19:34
It doesn't materially affect how much is for sale from the companies that pump it. But it certainly affects how much is available to companies who want to turn it into regular gas and bring it to the consumer.

If I buy 10,000,000 barrels at $100 do you think I'm going to release a single drop of that oil to anybody until its risen to a price I find makes me a reasonable profit? You'd better believe I'm holding onto every single barrel until I either turn a profit or its painful obvious I'll never recoup my investment.
 
526sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 19:38
and when the station owner has 25,000 gallons to buy in order to refill his tanks; and selling at the current price, wont restock his inventory...he raises the pump price. Boom! The circle is completed, and the price climbs and climbs.
 
527Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 23:19
Commodity traders virtually never take possession of the commodity that they trade. Commodity contracts are for set sizes with specific delivery dates. Other than producers who hedge commodities, I doubt that there are any traders who have the capacity to actually take delivery of the commodity they are trading.

Commodity traders affect the price, but do not affect the supply other than potentially getting producers to sell or hold on to their production. But even that is limited amount. I was talking with some family over Christmas and they were saying that the refineries in Houston have to start shutting down if the channel gets closed for more than a couple of days because they don't have the capacity to hold any more after the oil has been refined.
 
528sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 00:00
They dont have to "take possession" of the oil. It's all paper. Like Buffet says about how he and Romney make their money, by pushing large piles of money around. They hold a conytract for "X" amount with a due date of "Y". They sell their paper BEFORE "Y: ever gets here, at a higher price than they paid for it, and thats done by buying more paper with a due date of "Y+90" and pushing the price upward.

As I said before, the bubble will eventually burst, but until it does; the middle class gets wiped out. The stuoid rich (those buying vast quantities of this papr), get richer and richer. And make enough prior to the bubble bursting, that they end up ahead despite, any losses taken when it bursts. The burst however, will detrimentally impact retirees holdings, mutual funds, etc etc etc. All, so the rich, can get richer.
 
529biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 09:15
Simply betting on something isn't going to push the price upward. There are always two sides to a bet. If there is evidence that supply is indeed being restricted however, then that would certainly cause the price to go up. Does anyone have evidence this is happening?

Are full tankers sitting in harbors around the world refusing to unload? It could happen, and I think did to a limited extend in 2009. But it can only happen in the short term, unless you see an event like an OPEC embargo in the 70s.
 
530sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 12:32
Supply, from what I have read, is up. Demand, is down. Prices, are at historic highs.
 
531Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 12:50
Demand is way down--a ten year low.

 
532DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 13:00
Unfortunately, that's just US gasoline demand. I'm fairly certain that gas and oil prices are influenced pretty heavily by global demand as well, and I'm also quite sure that's a different picture (though global oil demand did dip slightly at the very end of 2011).
 
533sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 13:26
With the US accounting for some 25% of the worlds oil consumption, if demand here is down substantially, it would be difficult for emerging markets to have increased demand enough to actually raise world wide demand. (and as you say, at the end of 2011, ie 3 weeks ago), world wide demand was down.
 
534DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 13:39
Well, no, it wouldn't be that difficult actually.

For instance, there's China:

link

and crude oil consumption is expected to be on the rise globally in 2012: link

Oil consumption by the United States, the world's largest consumer, is expected to avearge 18.96 mbpd in 2012 and 19.01 mbpd in 2013. These figures are higher than the 2011 consumption of 18.87 mbpd

Most of the demand growth will be driven by non OECD countries, the report noted citing China, Middle east and Brazil as the main growth engines. Non- OECD oil consumption is expected to rise by 1.4 mbpd in 2012 and 1.3 mbpd in 2013. Total 2012 consumption by these countries are estimate d to average 43.82 mbpd.


So, in other words, those other countries are growing in oil consumption by 1,400,000 million barrels a day this year, while we're projected to grow by 50,000 barrels a day.
 
535Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 13:55
I think that's a good point. This is why the oil projected to go through the Keystone pipeline was all going to go to China in the end.

What reduced US consumption means is that we are able to increase the percentage of oil we produce ourselves. And that oil is less price sensitive than oil coming from overseas.
 
536DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 14:03
"What reduced US consumption means is that we are able to increase the percentage of oil we produce ourselves."

Completely right. It's at least helpful in terms of reducing our trade deficit. However...

"And that oil is less price sensitive than oil coming from overseas."

Well, no, not really. Unless you have a plan to stop American oil companies from putting American oil on the global market, that exact same price pressure will still be there.

Unfortunately for the consumer, oil is a pretty easily transportable product -- especially thanks to additional pipelines like Keystone XL. This is why Midwestern gas prices were projected to go UP with the introduction of that pipeline; the previously somewhat captive supply of oil would have additional outlets, effectively increasing demand for the local oil (or reducing the local glut of oil supply, depending on how you want to look at it).

And, while it's hard to argue with "I have a product, I want to sell it to the person who will pay the most for it", it's precisely that argument that means that us producing more of our own oil (on a percentage basis) won't really affect consumer prices any.
 
537boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 14:51
Unfortunately for the consumer, oil is a pretty easily transportable product -- especially thanks to additional pipelines like Keystone XL. This is why Midwestern gas prices were projected to go UP with the introduction of that pipeline;

people keep saying this but is there a link for this? Without refineries you are not going to be turning the oil from Canada into gasoline. I think this is scare tactic to support the opposition to the pipeline.
 
538boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 15:00
If I buy 10,000,000 barrels at $100 do you think I'm going to release a single drop of that oil to anybody until its risen to a price I find makes me a reasonable profit? You'd better believe I'm holding onto every single barrel until I either turn a profit or its painful obvious I'll never recoup my investment.

Even if this was true you are forgetting part of the equation holding oil is not free there are huge costs associated with holding on to oil and not selling it. that is why oil embargo was successful because they just refused to pump it out of the ground, in other words they had no holding costs.
 
539DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 15:14
Re: 537 -- sure. It's in TransCanada's pipeline application. Hopefully that won't qualify as a "scare tactic"!

link

An excerpt (background: PADD II is basically = the Midwest, details buried in that link):

Existing markets for Canadian heavy crude, principally PADD II, are currently oversupplied, resulting in price discounting for Canadian heavy crude oil.
Access to the USGC via the Keystone XL Pipeline is expected to strengthen Canadian crude oil pricing in PADD II by removing this oversupply. This is expected to increase the price of heavy crude to the equivalent cost of imported crude. Similarly, if a surplus of light synthetic crude develops in PADD II, the Keystone XL Pipeline would provide an alternate market and therefore help to mitigate a price discount.


Translation: they have "too much" oil. We need a pipeline to move some of that out so they'll pay more.
 
540Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 15:21
#537: The pipeline was intended to send the crude to US refineries near the Gulf, then be shipped to China.
 
541DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 15:27
"Even if this was true you are forgetting part of the equation holding oil is not free there are huge costs associated with holding on to oil and not selling it. that is why oil embargo was successful because they just refused to pump it out of the ground, in other words they had no holding costs."

Except that's precisely the point. Most of the people doing the speculating are never actually taking any delivery of the oil; they don't have those holding costs.
 
542Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 15:45
Exactly. A quick primer on oil futures.
 
543boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 16:54
Re: 539 It seems to be talking about crude oil prices not refined product prices. My interpretation of it is that with out the pipeline they have no one to sell the oil too so price is cheap, it says nothing about the refined prices being cheaper without the pipeline. while gasoline prices are connected to oil prices they are not one the same. WIth out refineries crude oil is practically worthless.

Re: 541 that was not directed at you it was just more evidence of why speculators and not driving up the price.
 
544Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 17:02
From PD's link:

"Writers create contracts in order to lock in prices in case of fluctuation. For example, if you produce oil and you think prices will go down, you can write contracts to lock in prices now. Similarly, if you believe that prices will go up, you'll buy contracts that lock in lower prices. Futures contracts are often used by pairs of business professionals to hedge their own bets"


So I may be off that speculators horde oil and affect the price by holding. Instead they fix the market, locking in prices for oil in the future that may not have anything at all to do with true supply and demand. And therefore, they screw with the economics of supply and demand. Just the same way.
 
545boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 17:09
you are missing the part where they are stuck paying those prices if oil goes down they have all ready agreed to pay that price, it is kind of like getting a groupon for oil.
 
546Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 18:02
That doesn't really happen--they sell the contract at a loss and move on.

The futures market is about floating through secondary, speculative, financial vehicles. It has very little to do with the actual product.
 
547sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 18:03
except boikin, the price ISNT GOING DOWN, as it should based on supply and demand. This is the 3rd time in 6 or so yewars, this has been the case.
 
548Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 19:59
Futures markets are like short sales to me. They are unhealthy for the overall economy and should not be allowed. They are too open to abuse and fraud and have too large of an influence on markets based on stuff that hasn't happened or may not happen. In otherwords - no basis in true reality.

 
549Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 09:07
No, they do have a basis in reality. One of the largest users of commodity trading that I'm aware of is Southwest Airlines. Southwest locks in a price for their fuel prices and sets their ticket prices with that price fixed. In 2004/05 and airlines were losing billions, Southwest was the only airline to make a profit. A closer look at their financial statements showed that they actually had a loss on their flight operations, but had a huge gain on their fuel hedging position. The net result was a small profit while other airlines lost huge amounts.

There is risk with hedging. If fuel prices had plummetted, Southwest would have had losses on their hedge positions and probably would have made a small profit, this time the result of their operations doing well. The other airlines would have likely made more with the lower fuel costs.

Trucking companies are another example. After labor costs, their next highest cost is most likely fuel costs. How can they set rates if the price of fuel is swinging wildly. One thing some companies have done is added on a fuel surcharge, but smarter companies are hedging their fuel prices (while still probably adding the surcharge) so they can get an estimate of their costs for the year.
 
550Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 09:42
Many farmers lock in prices for their crops for when they get harvested. On the other side, Kelloggs locks in prices for grains they will buy. The MF global collapse may cause this to be curtailed. As these farmers, etc are only being paid 74% of their accounts thru no fault of their own. So far, nobody has been charged and over one billion dollars is "missing". The puppet Obama has done little to prosecute the massive financial fraud. This is because he gets a lot of money from the financial industry. We are back on topic now.
 
551boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 09:49
re: 547, but that is not what is happening, show me some data that proves this, it should be fairly strait forward, but you can't because it isn't reality.

re: 549, I thought they made a small profit because of the savings they had from using the oil contracts not selling them or am I miss reading what you wrote?
 
552Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 09:59
Re: 551

I'll admit that I don't know what the exact transactions were. The end result is the same.
 
553Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 10:23
#549: You're right--many of the players in the futures markets are users who use the market to hedge. But the hedgers aren't affecting the market so much, IMO.
 
554sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 12:56
from 551: re: 547, but that is not what is happening, show me some data that proves this, it should be fairly strait forward, but you can't because it isn't reality.


Umm, yes it is and did. Can you not recall yourself, the gas runup a yr ago or so, and the one in 05 when gas went from $2.20/g to $4.80 in a matter of weeks? ALL, while supply was sound and demand was steady or declining.

History itself, is my proof.
 
555sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 13:27
link

link

link

link
 
556Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 13:54
re 550: How about this one?

Of course, we need to keep in mind that (thank God) the President doesn't prosecute anyone. That's what the Justice Department is for.
 
557Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 09:06
Three prosecutions down and about 9000 to go.

Farmers Sue Jon Corzine Over Missing Millions

MF Global's clients included 38,000 wheat farmers, cattle ranchers and others who "hedged" their crop prices by placing millions in MF Global accounts. Those accounts were supposed to be "segregated and secure," according to the federal suit, meaning MF Global could not draw on those funds.

The lawsuit, filed on behalf of all 38,000 customers, alleges that when MF Global made a series of bad investments -- notably in European debt -- it began "siphoning funds withdrawn from segregated client accounts" to cover its debts.

"This is a suit by the real victims of MF Global," said plaintiff's attorney Mark Baker of the law firm Anderson, Baker & Swanson. "The missing funds were not investments in MF Global, or loans to MF Global, but rather the customer's own money as collateral to guaranty their contracts. They were not to be used by others – let alone their own broker – to speculate on risky and exotic securities."
 
558Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 12:09
Those funds should be covered by the SIPC. The SIPC is similar to FDIC, but for brokerage firms.

This Business Week article seems to imply that is correct, but they are free to file lawsuits. The problem they are going to have is getting restitution from a bankrupt company.
 
559Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 12:03
They would not have a lawsuit if their funds were 100% covered by SIPC. It should not have been a securities brokerage bankruptcy; it should have been a commodities brokerage bankruptcy. The farmers would have been first in line. 99.99% of the accounts were commodities, and .01% were securities. Zerohedge explains it: Why SIPC? MF Global Customers Were Thrown Under the Bus on Day 1

Why was MF Global put through a SIPA liquidation designed for securities brokers?

Answer: to protect the creditors.

Had MF Global been resolved under Subchapter IV of Chapter 7 of the Bankruptcy Code (appropriately entitled "Commodity Broker Liquidation"), customers would have been put first, against the interests of the large bank creditors of MF Global. From the unambiguous Historical and Revision Notes in the US Code (emphasis ours):

SENATE REPORT NO. 95-989

[Section 765] Subsection (a) of this section [enacted as section 766(h)] provides that with respect to liquidation of commodity brokers which are not clearing organizations, the trustee shall distribute [commodity] customer property to customers on the basis and to the extent of such customers' allowed net equity claims, and in priority to all other claims. This section grants customers' claims first priority in the distribution of the estate. Subsection (b) [enacted as section 766(i)] grants the same priority to member property and other customer property in the liquidation of a clearing organization. A fundamental purpose of these provisions is to ensure that the property entrusted by customers to their brokers will not be subject to the risks of the broker's business and will be available for disbursement to customers if the broker becomes bankrupt.

Some tough questions need to be asked to those who approved the last minute handing over of what was primarily a commodities broker into the hands of a trustee experienced only with securities brokers, and pursuant to SIPA legislation that does not afford protections first to the commodities customers. The entire model of customer protection under SIPA is that it establishes an insurance fund for securities customers. Because no such fund exists for commodities customers, they are put at an extreme disadvantage from the outset.

Who made the decision to throw MF Global into a SIPA liquidation? More to come...
 
560boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 15:42
It was not their fault they lead there companies to ruin, they had a metal illness.

They were all run by psychopaths, because psychopaths are able to take advantage of the “relative chaotic nature of the modern corporation,” including “rapid change, constant renewal” and high turnover of “key personnel.” Such circumstances allow them to ascend through a combination of “charm” and “charisma,” which makes “their behaviour invisible” and “makes them appear normal and even to be ideal leaders.”
 
561sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 15:57
That we have psychotic people in charge of corporate America, shouldnt surprise many.
 
562Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 15:58
Many politicians fit the bill as well.
 
563Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 17:30
Or university presidents. Or school superintendents.

Really anyone who has leadership and power consolidation as as an end instead of a means.
 
564boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 10:59
So in other words Democracy(at least in it's current form) is a failed system because are doomed to choose the mentally insane to lead us?
 
565Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:21
More a flaw of modern capitalism, which political structures attempt to emulate, in my mind.
 
566boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:35
I think you mean more a flaw of power, not of capitalism.
 
567Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:46
Money is power.

The tools necessary to climb to the top of the modern corp are not necessarily the same as those needed to make the corp succeed.
 
568sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:52
Indeed Bili, they are not the same. It is not necessary, to cast aside as er thought, ones family or the families of those you employ. A company, need not function in that regard in order to provide enviable ROI. A brief review of any of the hundreds of "Best Companies to Work For" lists which are out there, will demonstrate as much. Yet, American busnesses by and large at the corporate level, see the employee as property and they are treated as such.
 
569Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 07:41
Zombie Apocalypse
 
570Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 08:25
rofl! nice boldwin. probably more suited to the joke thread, but still funny.
 
571Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 09:36
a flaw of modern capitalism, which modern political structures try to emulate

Agreed.
 
572Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 10:19
1. MF Global goes bankrupt, $1.2 billion missing
2. Jon Corzine resigns in disgrace
3. Jon Corzine Raised $500,000 for Obama
 
573Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 11:15
Sure--he's got free time on his hands.
 
574C.SuperFreak
      ID: 5111381515
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 11:28
Wall Street crowd is about to get a bit richer with the the Facebook IPO offerring. Zuckerbergs famous pig.

I'm probably in the minority but I've never been a big fan of Facebook and don't recognize or understand it's value (I had the same opinion with AOL in the 90's). But it appears that Zuckerberg is going to be one wealthy kid. Maybe he can save the Dodgers....

I probably spend more time browsing this site than wading thru Facebook.
 
575Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 11:59
Facebook's IPO is set to make something like 1,000 new millionaires.

Facebook makes their money from gathering personal information and selling it to advertisers. I'm not sure that a 100B valuation is appropriate or not, but it is valuable. And for everyone who wants to bash Facebook and/or Google for gathering personal information.

From Jeff Jarvis
Just got hacked off at a France24 producer who wanted me to come on the air to talk about Facebook's business plan and how it makes its money from advertising using information about us.

How do you make money? I demanded.

Uh pretty much the same way, he said.
 
576boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 16:11
The question that never seems to be asked or atleast I don't see it being asked is "well that's great facebook is making billions of advertising but are advertisers making anything off facebook" this could be generalized web marketing in general
 
577Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 08:08
The same could be said for almost any type of marketing. Actually, web advertising has much better metrics of effectiveness then almost any other type of advertising. When you click through an ad it has referal information.

I'll throw a plug for Guru here. Click through the ads occasionally, it results in revenue that helps support the site.
 
578Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 11:23
New York

Interesting read on changes to Wall Street and large banks.
 
579boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 17:14
I guess we can stop blaming wall street? I am not sure if that was a pro wall street piece in the sense that they are safe, they will not steal your money, or if everyone was lying in it.
 
580Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 20:24
I don't think we should stop blaming Wall Street, but the realization that leveraging companies more and more and getting huge bonuses for it isn't going to be happening (hopefully) anymore. Does that mean that more talent goes to other industries. Probably, but having talent go to (again hopefully) industries that produce good or services that are more beneficial is a good thing.

The realization that they have some blame is a refreshing start.
 
581boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 16:49
It must be spreading because I read about the exact same story in the economist talking about london and new york bankers.
 
582Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 10:28
I wasn't sure where to put this. A scary look at just how much of the trading markets are not understood. By anyone.

Wired - High Speed Trading
 
583sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 13:52
that is frightening. In my minds eye, the solution is simple...disallow electronic auto-trades.
 
584biliruben
      ID: 34820210
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 14:36
The answer is to tax every single trade. It would force us to track them, and it would force the programmers to be more judicious in the use of them, because every trade costs money.

Force them to think in terms of long-term investment through smart use of the tax code.
 
585Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 14:51
It figures.
 
586biliruben
      ID: 34820210
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 15:45
Do you think buying and selling a stock a thousand times an hour provides any useful benefit for our society?
 
587Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 15:52
Taxing every single trade is not the answer. Too punishing to the 'little guy.'
 
588biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 15:55
Give exemptions to retirement accounts, just like we do now for them with capital gains. "Little guys" don't generally have large non-exempt brokerage accounts. And I don't know of too many little guys who make more than a few dozen trades a year.

We are talking small amounts - say .01% a trade. It would only hurt the quants.
 
589boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 17:07
don't we already tax every trade as capital gains?
 
590biliruben
      ID: 34820210
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 17:27
No. Only the cumulative annual gains.

I'm not talking about capital gains here in any case. I'm talking about a transaction tax.
 
591sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 14:02
1%'er, leaves 1% tips

"mention the 99% in my boss' presence and feel his wrath. So proudly does he wear his 1% badge of honor that he tips exactly 1% every time he feels the server doesn't sufficiently bow down to his holiness."

THAT, is why OWS.
 
592Tree
      ID: 401292713
      Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 14:33
if he eats at the same restaurants after leaving that tip, i can only imagine the various bodily fluids, garbage, and other items he's ingested.
 
593sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 14:18
insulting tip a hoax

New developments suggest that the receipt from the restaurant may have been digitally altered. According to the website the Smoking Gun, True Food Kitchen's spokesperson said it found the original merchant copy of the receipt, and the one circulating the Internet was "altered and exaggerated." The original receipt does not contain the tip "Get a real job." Also, the real bill was for $33, not $133, and the tip given was $7.33, not $1.33.
 
594boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 16:36
Upper class people are more likely to behave selfishly, studies suggest

I have one concern about this article and it is that it implies that being wealthy is the cause of selfish behavior but it could very easily be the other way around, selfishness leads to monetary success.
 
595Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 18:18
Could be. It probably isn't straightforward, but certainly privilege seems to go hand-in-hand with an expectation that some things, like rules, don't apply.

Maybe the wealthy see themselves as more detached from society, making rules designed to protect societal cohesion as less binding to them.
 
596Perm Dude
      ID: 24625213
      Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 16:05
Standard & Poor's opening defense: "Our rating were clearly puffery, and responsible investors would never have relied upon them."
 
597Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 16:53
S&P is attempting CYA. Intent to defraud might be a tough conviction, but they are definitely guilty of not upholding their obligations that they have as a NRSRO.
 
598Perm Dude
      ID: 417342923
      Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 15:05
Yeah, they really think this way. The 99% owe a "debt of gratitude" to the 1%.

So stop asking for a reacharound.