Forum: pol
Page 3590
Subject: The Real Herman Cain


  Posted by: Boldwin - [35615181] Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 09:58

Why the left fears Herman Cain: Surging candidate threatens allegiance between blacks and Dems - NYDN
You see, talking about cutting government spending and lowering taxes to create jobs is one thing. Talking about personal responsibility over pocketing a government check, looking forward instead of backwards and choosing entrepreneurship over dependence is another. If the left co-opted the latter theme, blacks - and, in fact, many others - would be better off. Then again, West and Sharpton would suddenly become irrelevant.

Much as Sarah Palin flipped the feminist agenda on its head, Cain is doing the same for race.

The left wants minorities - women, blacks, Hispanics - to lean on government. Liberals have long loved to claim they represent African-Americans better than the right ever could, but under Obama - and even with a Democratic Congress - unemployment for blacks has spiked, as has the number of those on food stamps. Liberals also like to pretend they are tolerant and accepting of those who are different, but when it comes to anyone not ensconced in their progressive, elitist dogma - especially minorities - they mock and attack them, much as they did to Juan Williams when he was at NPR (and as they are now doing to Cain).

The strategy of Cain's detractors might be to intimidate and call him names, but the more they ridicule and insult him, the more they look desperate to play the race card in a country that desperately needs to move on from racial outdated tension.
-----
"I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who believe this country owes them something," Cain has said. "If you put your mind to it and you don't play the victim card, you can do whatever you want to do in this country. I am walking proof of that."
Take that, OW.
 
1sarge33rd
      ID: 199191610
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 11:19
Why the left fears HC?

Because he;s a self serving ass, who will more damage to this country in 4 years than 20 could fix; and he appears to be gaining momentum with the ignorant right.

THAT, is why the left "fears" Herman Cain.
 
2Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 12:52
Much as Sarah Palin flipped the feminist agenda on its head, Cain is doing the same for race.

honestly, i hadn't even once thought of Cain as a black candidate. race isn't an issue here.

this, however, is:
Cain Has Deep Ties to Koch Brothers
 
3Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 13:25
Yeah, and it never occurred to you Sarah was a woman.
 
4Razor
      ID: 519301612
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 13:30
Cain is changing everything, just as Palin did. Wait, what did Palin change again?
 
5Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 14:29
I think certain sectors of the GOP power elite (ones that have never produced a VP candidate on the libertarian ticket, anyway) fear a Cain nomination far more than the greater left. The fear, publicly unspoken by them I'm sure, is that the number of black voters who supported Obama in 2008 and either switch to Cain or stay home in frustration will be less a factor than reliable Republican voters in southern and rural states (especially seniors, the crucial stewards of those GOP strongholds) who stay home or go third party rather than elect a black man.

I'd prefer to learn we're past that, really. But it's an issue that just won't reliably reflect in polls and there's no doubt that the RNC power brokers know that variable remains until it is tested.
 
6Great One
      ID: 418501919
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 16:07
Sadly, I know of some people who really just don't like Obama cause he's black - regardless of his positions on things.

And I have no problem with Cain or Romney or whoever, they all seem like solid candidates. But I kind of secretly pull for Cain to call these people on their bluff.
 
7DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 17:03
"Wait, what did Palin change again? "

Her views on premarital sex, at least if the Glen Rice thing is to be believed!
 
8Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 17:29
Republican voters in southern and rural states (especially seniors, the crucial stewards of those GOP strongholds) who stay home or go third party rather than elect a black man.
If Herman Cain is our nominee against Barack Obama, I think he’ll sweep the south," Gov. Haley Barbour (R-Miss.) told Laura Ingraham today.

“I think if it were today my wife would vote for Herman Cain. One of my sons, I have grown children, you know, from the first day said ‘Dad, do you know Herman Cain?’ I said sure, I’ve known him since I was Chairman. He said “Man, I like him, I like what he says,” and that is one of his great strengths Laura. He is likable. He does not give you the impression that he is full of himself, but rather than he is a straight-talkin’ person who, will tell you, he call it like he sees them. He’s not trying to sugar coat anything and at the same time he is not trying to be shrill and a chest beater. He’s a straight talker and I think that makes him very, very attractive to people.”


 
9sarge33rd
      ID: 239581616
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 18:21
Gee, a Rep mouthpiece speaking well of the current front running Rep candidate...what a shock that is.
 
10Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 18:28
Wait until those people who pay no federal income tax( like Boldwin probably) find out Cain wants them to pay an extra 9% whenever they buy something. That is on top of whatever state sales tax is already levied, 6.75% here in Utah, resulting in a 15.75% combined federal and state sales tax.

For small businesses like mine and the self-employed, it's pretty much a death knell. The big box stores already have an advantage with their buying power, now they can absorb some loss of profit with the drop in corporate taxes, effectively driving what little competition left into a minimum wage gig stocking shelves at WalMart and Home Depot, or schlepping jeans at Old Navy.

And what about internet retailers, another competitor with an unfair advantage, since they don't have to charge sales tax, unless it's in the state where they do business. Will they have to charge a national 9% on every sale? Good luck enforcing and collecting from any company except Amazon and EBay, companies so big that they too can absorb less profit through corporate tax savings. You'll see more black markets pop up on virtually every product in existence.

When Cain became CEO of Godfather's, he immediately closed hundreds of stores, eliminating thousands of jobs. He's a multi-millionaire with complete disdain for the working class, especially minorities.

Finally, when Cain's fellow right wing radio icon Rush Limbaugh said this week that Romney wasn't "conservative," he did his buddy Cain no favors. Most of the country hates Limbaugh, and any candidate he gets behind is destined to suffer disasterous results.



 
11Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 19:18
The GOP field hasn't fully taken Cain to task on his absurd tax plan. This will not be the case if Cain somehow wins the nomination.
 
12sarge33rd
      ID: 239581616
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 20:11
I used to endorse the idea of a national sales tax....but upon looking HARD at it...nothing could be MORE regressive in nature.
 
13Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 22:37
The problem with a national sales tax is that in the time it took you to blink congress would turn around and raise the income tax right back up where it was and keep the sales tax as well.
 
14sarge33rd
      ID: 239581616
      Sun, Oct 16, 2011, 23:16
that may or may not be. It is conjecture and speculation. What is fact, and is not subject to partisan bias; is the simple truth that a sales tax weighs more heavily upon those with a lower income, than it does on those with higher incomes. It's just a simple truth, grounded in the fact that the poor, dont have the discretionary monies to NOT spend. Result, 100% of their income, gets taxed. The wealthy, could spend 30% of their income, and thus only that 30% would be taxed. (Nrs used are illustrative only.)
 
15biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 09:49
Ignoring for a second it's regressive nature, what happens when you at a 9% federal sales tax to a 9% state sales tax? Wouldn't that immediately force a large amount of goods into the black market to avoid the tax altogether?
 
16sarge33rd
      ID: 589451711
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 14:33
of course, but those would be criminals and we'd just have to be tough on crime and lock up mom and dad poor cple trying to buy food.
 
17boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 14:58
And what about internet retailers, another competitor with an unfair advantage, since they don't have to charge sales tax, unless it's in the state where they do business. Will they have to charge a national 9% on every sale? Good luck enforcing and collecting from any company except Amazon and EBay, companies so big that they too can absorb less profit through corporate tax savings. You'll see more black markets pop up on virtually every product in existence.

while I think the 9-9-9 (sounds like the dominos 5-5-5 plan) is terrible idea and the idea of having to pay sales tax on internet items even getting the big boys to pay could be nice influx of tax revenue.
 
18Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 14:59
electrocuting illegal immigrants is something to joke about - Herman Cain

even worse, his constituents cheering it. what is it with the current GOP being a culture of death?
 
19sox, at work
      ID: 279581714
      Mon, Oct 17, 2011, 15:58
I can't remember how to post a link, but here's the address and the important excerpt(s). Let's here it for the Koch brothers "outsider" candidate and his plans to help "all" Americans!

If the "9-9-9" tax plan promoted by Herman Cain, a leading Republican presidential candidate, had been the law of the land last year, Warren Buffett would very likely have paid no income taxes, according to an analysis prepared for Yahoo News and The Lookout by the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants. At most, Buffett would have paid taxes on just 1 percent of his income.

Cain, a Georgia businessman, has risen to the top of several polls for the 2012 presidential campaign. A centerpiece of his platform is his 9-9-9 tax plan. Devised by Rich Lowrie, an Ohio wealth manager for Wells Fargo, the plan would scrap the current tax system--including payroll taxes, capital gains taxes and estate taxes--and replace it with a tax code that imposes a 9 percent personal income tax, a 9 percent national sales tax, and a 9 percent corporate income tax.

If the plan is to impose a 9 percent tax, why would Buffett pay only 1 percent--or zero percent? Why so little?

Using information Buffett has released about his total taxable income and his effective tax rate under the current system, Melissa Labant, an accountant with the American Institute of CPAs, said that the bulk of Buffett's taxable income came from capital gains. Cain's 9-9-9 plan would eliminate taxes on capital gains.

"Last year my federal tax bill—the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf—was $6,938,744," Buffett wrote in an op-ed article in the New York Times in August. "That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income—and that's actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent."


link
 
20Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 19:11
Reagan's Big Tent philosophy gets smaller and smaller

Lauro Garza, 49, has been a Republican as long as he remembers, proudly casting his vote for Ronald Reagan in 1980 and sticking with the party ever since. But after hearing Herman Cain’s “joke” about killing illegal immigrants with an electric border fence, he’s seen enough.

“I’m serious,” he told TPM over the phone. “I have allegedly pro-life Republicans telling me that advocating for the murder of people crossing the border is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. We took Herman Cain’s remark very seriously because it was the second or third time he had said similar things.”

Garza dismissed Cain’s initial comments that the statement was a joke, noting that Cain subsequently said he would seriously consider an actual electrified fence as a solution to the border crisis. To Garza, the reaction of the GOP already gave away the game.

“People didn’t laugh, they cheered,” he said. “They didn’t think it was a joke. That remarks advocating the murder of innocent people and unconstitutional use of force by someone running for president were met with cheers by Republicans is outrageous.”


Cain can't help himself. As a longtime right wing talk show host, he's hardwired to saying outrageous things with no consequences. What good is draining off a few black voters to the GOP if you're going to polarize a just-as-large and faster growing minority?



 
21Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 20:34
I doubt too many people get killed on electric fences and I doubt there are any Tea Partiers who think an electric fence at the border would be a bad thing. I want every sort of fence there. Walls, sensors, patrols, lasers, whatever they can dream up to produce an actual border.
 
22sarge33rd
      ID: 32951812
      Tue, Oct 18, 2011, 20:50
and chuck fiscal responsibility, along with any sort of human decency, right out the window eh B?

Lets just bring back the 1930s isolationism.
 
23Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 00:16
Fiscal responsibility is not inviting a whole nuther country to come up here and collect social services while we do the work.

Having borders is not isolationism. It's just common sense. In what possible moral framework is having borders human indecency?
 
24Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 00:41
I doubt too many people get killed on electric fences...

what's too many? to me, too many is one. but in the culture of death you've embraced, i guess there is a higher threshold.

 
25Razor
      ID: 09441723
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 00:49
In what possible moral framework does having borders equivalent require murdering everyone who tries to set on US soil illegally? Perhaps we should have the Coast Guard gunning down rafts from Cuba too? This is an easy one for those who love their fellow man.
 
26sarge33rd
      ID: 32951812
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 02:05
Think Berlin Wall, in reverse. Just toss our way of law right out the window, and start shooting anybody you dislike. Call it "patriotism", and you too can be a Republican.
 
27Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 09:50
A) No one has seriously suggested electrifying the border to lethal amperage.

B) No one has said shoot anyone who manages to set foot illegally in america.

C) Constructing these flimsy strawmen is a good indication how weak your argument is.

D) Why not just be plain and honest about it. You want to bring in non-americans because you don't like the way real americans vote and you don't want traditional america to survive.
 
28Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 09:54
But hey, if under president Cain, the rumor should start that that fence is lethal and the numbers drop, I can live with it.
 
29Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:10
What's a real American?

Illegal immigrants vote as much as you do.
 
30biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:16
I'll be honest about why I don't want to enrich the coyotes whenever you start being honest about how often your beat your wife.
 
31Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:24
Razor, you show a stunning ignorance of what the motor voter initiatives and the 'Secretary of State Project' are about or why Eric Holder's Justice Dept refuses to investigate illegal voting.

Could it be just a ruse on your part?
 
32Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:35
999 - Cain's plan for wealth redistribution and class warfare

Herman Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan would raise taxes on 84 percent of U.S. households, according to an independent analysis released Tuesday, contradicting claims by the Republican presidential candidate that most Americans would see a tax cut.

The Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank, says low- and middle-income families would be hit hardest, with households making between $10,000 and $20,000 seeing their taxes increase by nearly 950 percent.

"You're talking a $2,700 tax increase for people with incomes between $10,000 and $20,000," said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. "That's huge."

Households with the highest incomes, however, would get big tax cuts. Those making more than $1 million a year would see their taxes cut nearly in half, on average, according to the analysis.

Among those in the middle, households making between $40,000 and $50,000 would see their taxes increase by an average of $4,400, the report said. Those making between $50,000 and $75,000 would see their annual tax bill go up by an average of $4,326.

"It's very, very regressive compared to the current system, and that's largely because we're exempting capital gains, and we're taxing your spending with the sales tax," Williams said. "People at the top end don't spend all their money and they get a lot of capital gains, so they are doing pretty well here."


When Romney asked Cain at last night's debate whether the 9% national sales tax would be additional to whatever the state sales tax is, Cain attempted an obfuscation about apples and oranges before semi-admitting that, of course, it was an additional tax.

New Hampshire is one of the few states that has no state sales tax. Expect Cain's poll numbers to plunge when this 999 scam comes under scrutiny.

 
33Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 10:54
I'm not sure what constitutes evidence in your world, but it is shockingly low.

What's a Real American?
 
34Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 11:41
Telling.
 
35Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 11:44
Boldwin, would you care to respond to #32?

I really hope the Republicans find a legitimate candidate before next November. I'd like to have a real choice between candidates and not be forced to vote because one party can't find anyone.
 
36Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 11:47
Obfuscate and run.

You want to talk about illegal immigrants voting in elections, well, provide some proof not a biased article that references the possibility. Intelligent people need proof to believe something. Absence of evidence only works for dummies and conspiracy theorists, which are not necessarily mutually exclusive groups.
 
37Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 12:02
Farn

I like the direction Cain is going on taxes in the sense that he is for tearing out, root and branch, the entire the old system with it's already bought and paid for loopholes.

I don't like his national sales tax idea. That is a non-starter.

It doesn't matter anyway. The president has a minimal role in the creation of tax policy. Unless another Tea Party landslide congress hands him exactly what he wants on a platter.

The landslide might happen but there are just too many loophole vendors in congress to reform them out of the process. Sadly. Congressmen get converted to establishment insiders at a frightening speed and predictability.

Razor

Get back to me when you figure out what an American is. Real Americans seem to be a foreign concept to you.

 
38Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 12:16
I asked a question about the term. I don't understand it, so perhaps you can enlighten me? It's not on Wikipedia, the Constitution or anywhere else I looked.
 
39sarge33rd
      ID: 379581911
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 12:58
B, according to the Rep mouthpiece known as Palin, I'm not a "real American" solely because I dont buy her BS hook-line and sinker. That I bled on the battlefield, that I took an oath to defend the Constitution, that I served with honor...are all meaningless to her and her ilk. So the challenge still stands for YOU to define a "real American".
 
40Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 13:01
Why not just be plain and honest about it. You want to bring in non-americans because you don't like the way real americans vote and you don't want traditional america to survive.

ok, time for some plain honesty.

ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY BELIEVES THE ABOVE LINE You want to bring in non-americans because you don't like the way real americans vote and you don't want traditional america to survive is an idiot. an absolute, unqualified, completely moronic, unable to think on his or her own, idiot.

that's some honesty right there. it's a complete "hey, let me pull something totally dumb out of my a$$" statement," one with simply no basis in reality.
 
41Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 15:31
It's been months since Cain was exposed as a foreign policy know-nothing. Should be plenty of time for him to have sufficiently boned up on the basics, no?
In an interview with Wolf Blitzer before the Republican presidential debate, Cain was asked to weigh in on the recent prisoner transfer between Israel and Palestine in which Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was swapped for hundreds of Palestinian detainees. Blitzer put the situation in an American context.

"[If] there were one American soldier who'd been held for years, and the demand was al Qaeda or some other terrorist group, you gotta free everyone at Guantanamo Bay, several hundred prisoners at Guantanamo, could you see yourself as president authorizing that kind of transfer?" Blitzer asked.

"I could see myself authorizing that kind of transfer," Cain responded. "What I would do is I would make sure that I got all of the information, I got all of the input, considered all of the options, and then the president has to be the president and make a judgment call. I could make that call if I had to."

Cain took a different position in an interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper after the debate, however, saying that he would not negotiate with terrorists. He said that his earlier statement was not reflective of his actual position.

“I misspoke,” Cain said flatly. “It was moving so fast, I misspoke. I would not do that, I simply would not do that.”

How many times will GOP voters let this guy get away with the same pathetic "I misspoke" excuse? I guess it's a step up from his previous tactic of simply denying his own words.
 
42Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 15:37
The guy isn't cut out to be a top tier candidate in a weak GOP field, much less run the country. He is charismatic, I'll give him that.
 
43Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 15:55
re #41:

I can't even imagine what he'd do in a time of conflict when a big decision had to be made.

Please GOP, please.... find a real candidate. Make November 2012 have some importance.
 
44Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 17:01
Come on, Farn, you might not like Mitt Romney, but you can't honestly say he is not a real candidate. He is the definition of a real Republican candidate, someone who has run for President before, failed, and is trying again.
 
45Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 17:26
Razor

I'm going to answer your question with a negative.

The answer to the question, "Who is a real American" is not "Any foreigner will do".
 
46Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 17:27
So as you can tell, I don't like your 'foreign concept'.
 
47sarge33rd
      ID: 379581911
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 17:48
^ once again, B uses multiple posts to say nothing of any value. (Unlike myself, who said nothing of any value in just one post.)
 
48Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 17:53
You use terms you can't even define?

Your posts aren't bad because they are right-wing. They are bad because they are poorly reasoned and defended. I'd be happy if someone took enough interest in one of my posts to ask me to clarify, but you just play runaround because you can't explain or defend your posts any more. They are just right-wing vomit plucked from the mouths of talk show hosts and blogs and spewed all over this forum. I am sure I could do a better job advancing and defending right-wing positions on this board than you, and I don't even believe in much of it. If you're going to pour so much time into something, at least try to be decent at it. That means picking your words carefully and constructing an argument based on reason and fact.
 
49Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 18:17
I think I conclusively proved your definition is wrong. Since you seem to be defending the idea that illegal aliens are 'Real Americans'.

Even if you could make the case that say Elian Gonzalez' mother was a real American, [and I'd be a lot happier to call her a real american than Bill Ayers and his friends] you could not make the case that she would be legally and ethically absolved for sneaking into a polling booth before she had met the legal requirements.
 
50Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 18:20
And if you think you are pulling some kung fu on me, conjuring up some circuitous reasoning and you are gonna circle back and call me 'not a real american' I'll save you the trouble. I know. I am a citizen of God's Kingdom.
 
51Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 18:24
Dual citizenship, then?
 
52Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 18:40
Dual by legality, not by heart. Paul of the Bible, among many other Bible figures were citizens of Rome by legality, more valuable and rare than you might imagine. And he used that to his benefit. But you can be sure he would not offer a pinch of incense to the Ceasar.
 
53Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 18:53
Razor

Ok, I'll relent having let my previous answer sink in.

Saying that your thesis that illegal aliens made perfectly legit real american voters...made 'Real American' a foreign concept to you, was just brilliant. *bow*

I don't care if the rest of you don't get it.

Ok, I'll take a stab at a definition. A Real American is someone whose exclusive loyalty is to the American Dream and the American Experiment.

Not to the European Dream.

Not to the EU.

Not to the UN.

Not to marxism.

Not to 'the grand march of inevitable human progress'.

Not to the French Revolution.

Not to anarchy or revolution for the sake of revolution.
 
54sarge33rd
      ID: 379581911
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:06
That's so much gobbledy-gook nonsense. Stringing words together to make a sentence, does not meet the criteria of actually communicating.

What defines "exclusive loyalty"? WHO defines it? You? hahahahahaha Hardly. I put myself in the category of being exclusively loyal to the US. Swore an oath to that affect and fought to that affect. Yet YOU, would deny my claim to such and level accusations to the contrary.

So, who defines who is "exclusively loyal"?
 
55Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:07
Not bad. It only took multiple inquiries, and 8 hours before Baldy finally provided an answer to the question.

Funny, that on the wiki page for "American", the words 'EU', 'UN', 'Marxism', 'French Revolution', or 'Anarchy' do not appear.

Reading most of your posts is like watching an episode of "Ghost Hunters". An hour later, and there are no answers, nor proof of anything. Just an hour I'll never get back ...
 
56Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:10
A Real American is someone whose exclusive loyalty is to the American Dream and the American Experiment.

I suppose that eliminates you, since you admit in %50

I am a citizen of God's Kingdom



 
57bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:16
Saying that your thesis that illegal aliens made perfectly legit real american voters

In which post did Razor make this statement?
 
58sarge33rd
      ID: 379581911
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:16
Would you agree B, that the FF were "real Americans"? (I'm going to assume the answer to that question is 'yes'.)

Then explain to me the Republican penchant for referring to the FF, then acting in a diamtetrically opposing fashion.

ie, the Revolutionary War, was funded in no small part, BY those who wore the rank of Sr Officers in the Colonial Armies. (Why Benedict Arnold for ex 'turned coat". Hadnt been paid, hadnt seen his troops paid, had spent vast sums of his personal wealth...)

My point being, at that time, the wealthy LITERALLY carried the cost of the nation on their backs. Yet today, the wealthy want the poor, to bear those costs on their behalf.

 
59Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:21
Tosh, I am sorry if you can't appreciate it, but I try not to step on one brilliant answer with another too close behind it.

Sarge

If the Fort Hood shooter had served a tour first, would you be calling him a 'Real American' right now?
 
60Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:22
PV

What part of #50 was unclear to you?
 
61sarge33rd
      ID: 379581911
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:34
re 59...Of course not, Nor would I point at 1 case out of some million plus people; and try to present that one case as typical.
 
62Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:45
Sarge#58

A) Because neocons are trotskyites.

B) It was an investment and they expect ROI?

C) I don't know if you can generalize 'what the wealthy want'. You have to explain Warren Buffet and virtually every democrat donor to me first before I can even get started.

I know I want a flat and fair non-punative tax across the board.
 
63sarge33rd
      ID: 379581911
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:56
Flat, by definition, is not fair. It would be regressive, resulting in those at lower income end to pay a higher per cent of their income in taxes than those at the upper end.

Flat Tax, like a National Sales Tax; would be regressive and place an undo burden upon those least able to afford it.

I think you totally missed my point with 58. The rich at the time of the FF, paid the cost, willingly, to found this nation. Today however, not so willing to pay so much as their share.
 
64Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 19:59
Loophole free is fine. Punative is not.
 
65sarge33rd
      ID: 379581911
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 20:05
And a flat tax, is punitive to those on the lower income end of the spectrum. Glad to hear that you too are opposed to placing even more burden upon those backs.
 
66Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 20:53
Interesting cultural variations.
 
67Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 21:02
I could accept a national sales tax under certain conditions. First of all, 9% is way too high. 2% max, with a strict time limit against raising it of at least 10 years, and then a max of half a percent.

Since the states already have a system in place, have the states collect the tax. This would eliminate a new federal agency charged with collecting, enforcing and auditing. The few states that have no sales tax will, unfortunately, have to develop a system. This way, the fed gets 50 checks a year instead of having to start a national sales tax system from scratch.

Finally, all funds collected from the national sales tax must go directly to paying down the national debt. None of this deposit into a fund that can be raided like SS.

I realize this is still a regressive tax that will affect the poor and middle class more adversly than the wealthy. But the working poor and lower middle class mostly already get food stamps, so I doubt people will go hungry.

 
68Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 21:03
Here's what happens under Cain's plan:



The wealthy get big tax breaks (even more than under Bush's tax cuts) and the rest of us get screwed.
 
69Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 21:27
I'm kinda interested what someone other than the Brookings Institute has to say about that.
 
70sarge33rd
      ID: 379581911
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 21:39
which part of common sense and self evaluation of the 9-9-9 plan, is preventing you from drawing the same conclusion as was derived by the Brookings/Urban Institute evaluation?
 
71Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 22:20
Here's the Washington Post:

We’re not sure how Cain calculates that this family now pays $10,000 in taxes, but the reliable Tax Foundation calculator comes up with a much more reasonable figure: a total tax bill of $3,515 — $690 in federal income taxes and $2,825 in payroll taxes. (The family gets a big income-tax savings from the child tax credit, which Cain would eliminate.)

So, in other words, under Cain’s plan, this family would instantly pay $1,000 more in income taxes. They would also pay additional sales taxes, probably more than $3,000, on their purchases. It’s unclear how the business tax would affect the family’s tax bill but it appears this theoretical family would get no tax cut but instead a 100 percent tax increase.


Here's Bruce Barlett:

At a minimum, the Cain plan is a distributional monstrosity. The poor would pay more while the rich would have their taxes cut, with no guarantee that economic growth will increase and good reason to believe that the budget deficit will increase.

Even allowing for the poorly thought through promises routinely made on the campaign trail, Mr. Cain’s tax plan stands out as exceptionally ill conceived.


Here's Grover Nordquist


The plan forces the poor to pay more in taxes, and gives the wealthy all sorts of tax cuts. To say nothing of the mindlessness of eliminating wages as a cost for businesses. Talk about stopping job creation in its tracks!
 
72Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 22:42
How does Cain respond? From my link in #32:

It does not raise taxes on those that are making the least," Cain said. "All of those are simply not true."

"The reason that our plan is being attacked so much is because lobbyists, accountants, politicians, they don't want to throw out the current tax code and put in something that's simple and fair," Cain said. "They want to continue to be able to manipulate the American people with a 10 million-word mess."

Denial.

 
73Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 23:07
Perhaps next week he'll demand that he never actually proposed any 9-9-9 plan.
 
74Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 23:07
...or explain that he's simply been misspeaking since the summer.
 
75sarge33rd
      ID: 379581911
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 03:33
On Pierce Morgan on CNN tonight, Cain said he blames Pres Obama 50% for the recession, the consumer 25% and Wall Street 25%.

I find it interesting, that he blames Pres Obama for a recession that began 3-6 months BEFORE the Nov 2008 election, let alone the Jan 2009 inauguration.
 
76Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 06:58
Baldwin must have missed Biba's #57. perhaps he didn't want to get caught in another lie.

in the meantime, Cain's stance on abortion is muddled.
 
77Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 15:50
biba#57 - Saying that your thesis that illegal aliens made perfectly legit real american voters

In which post did Razor make this statement?


------------

Razor's response to "You want to bring in non-americans because you don't like the way real americans vote "...

...was to hound me, post after post, for the definition of 'Real American' as if illegal aliens might qualify if you squinted just right.
 
78Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 16:07
How about you don't squint, then?
 
79sarge33rd
      ID: 329132012
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 16:11
how about we dont define "real Americans" by whether or not their voting choice matches your own?

THAT they elected to exercise their RIGHT to vote, defines them as real Americans.

I swear, the sanctimonious self-righteousness of the FAR right, is stomach turning.
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 16:27
THAT they elected to exercise their RIGHT to vote

Since when do Mexican citizens have the right to vote in the USA?
 
81sarge33rd
      ID: 329132012
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 16:38
Several hundred potential cases you could possibly cite, out of 10s of millions of votes...are irrelevant, meaningless and hollow to all EXCEPT, the most narrow minded, self righteous, holier than thou "thumpers" out there.

Besides, Latinos would vote rep *IF*, you'd quit trying to electrocute them.
 
82Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 17:05
Razor's response to "You want to bring in non-americans because you don't like the way real americans vote "...

...was to hound me, post after post, for the definition of 'Real American' as if illegal aliens might qualify if you squinted just right.


I asked you what a Real American was because I knew you'd squirm to define it, what with it being an absurd phrase and all.

A real American is someone with US citizenship. Naturalized or born here, loves America or hates it. There are no levels of Americanism - you're either American or you're another nationality. Strange that a guy who does not fit his own definition of Real American seems to value the notion of it so much.
 
83Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 17:26
Strange that a guy who does not fit his own definition of Real American seems to value the notion of it so much. - Razor

Don't let it confound you. After the anti-americans, gnawing away at america, complete their makeover of this country it will be as dangerous as Somalia or the Sudan.
 
84Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 17:28
And it was no trouble defining it at all. No squirming. I hit the target dead-on.
 
85sarge33rd
      ID: 339382016
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 17:52
in your biased, one sided, not at all humble...opinion
 
86Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 17:54
Herman Cain:

Bad policy. And bad pizza.
 
87Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 18:11
Herman Cain isn't an expert on pizza, which is why he plans to surround himself with advisers who know pizza.
 
88Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 02:39
After the anti-americans, gnawing away at america, complete their makeover of this country it will be as dangerous as Somalia or the Sudan.

do you intentionally say things that are beyond stupid, or is it just something you can't help?
 
89Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 11:31
Cain has some questions about harrassment charges from two women.
 
90Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 11:53
Interesting first impressions on this from David Kurtz @ TPM.
 
91Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 18:37
Tell it to Juanita Broaddrick, Kathleen Willey, Paula Jones, Elizabeth Ward Gracen, Regina Hopper Blakely, Sandra Allen James, Kathy Bradshaw, Cristy Zercher, Carolyn Moffet, etc. among many many others.

Cause we know this issue really doesn't bother you one bit when it's real and serious, so if some harpy didn't like his pick-up line, you can lump it.
 
92bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 19:05
Who can lump it? You mean the females involved....a general "you"?
 
93Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 19:16
Anyone who thinks Clinton should have been president [every democrat I know] and that Cain shouldn't be president and who want to use this tactic to accomplish it.
 
94Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 20:10
I doubt that the Politico reporters went searching for trouble. Someone tipped them off. So Baldwin, before you start blaming the "harpy", why don't you go take a look at the Rick Perry camp. I suspect they might be guilty.
 
95Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 20:41
so if some harpy ...

stay classy Baldwin, stay classy.
 
96Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 20:53
I wouldn't hang the guy over a corporate settlement. If she had a strong enough case that it would drag out at all it was probably cheaper and definitely fewer headaches for them to pay her to go away whether he really did anything wrong or not.

So I think post 93 is reasonable enough as long as the person writing it, who obviously feels this shouldn't prevent a Cain presidency hasnt been saying for years that the same type of thing should have prevented or ended a Clinton presidency - and of course would never have seen it used as atactic to accomplish those ends. Otherwise, offering such advice as "you can lump it" might present some troubling integrity issues.
 
97Perm Dude
      ID: 549411117
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 21:12
Cain shouldn't be president because he's an idiot. The fact that he *might* be a serial harasser is just a final nail in his deserved political coffin.

And here's the other thing: He (and his staff) should have anticipated these questions. And they didn't. They are completely out of their depth. Imagine what a tool a President Cain would be.
 
98Perm Dude
      ID: 549411117
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 21:16
If Cain is the new Clinton, I guess the new "I did not have sex with that woman" is now "I had no idea whether my organization settled with two women who accused me."
 
99Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 22:10
There is a world of difference between the phony harrassment charges that get thrown around by gold diggers and PC bitches...

...and Clinton biting someone's lip almost all the way off to force her to submit to a rape.
 
100sarge33rd
      ID: 19203121
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 22:20
and what of Anita Hill re C Thomas? Amazing B, how you are ready to hang any left inclined politico facing such a charge but any right leaning politico facing the charge; is being harassed by bitches. You'll understand then, if the rest of the world decides you're just a petty pr*ck.
 
101Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 22:30
PC bitches...

continuing to be classy, there.

the double standard here is amazing. i can only imagine that if my daughter was raped, you'd say "the liberal whore deserved it," but if your daughter was raped, you'd call for an execution without so much as a trial.
 
102Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 00:56
There is a world of difference between the phony harrassment charges that get thrown around by gold diggers and PC bitches.

And you know these were "phony" and that Cain's organization employed "gold diggers" how, exactly?

Really--I'd like to know. Lay it out there. Maybe you have some proof with which none of us are familiar with.
 
103Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 07:48
I know that the brave new PC world has unleashed a torrent of false accusations destroying the workplace and college environment and the lives of countless innocent individuals.
 
104Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 07:53
And I know that unlike the media's failure to vet Clinton's looooong history of sexual harrassment [and reportedly rape]...

And unlike the media's failure to vet Obama and his looooong history of anti-american and anti-capitalist words and deeds...

We for sure know one black man the MSM intends to keep in his place with their typical 'black man is a sexual threat' racism.
 
105Razor
      ID: 569263121
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 10:44
Why did you use two posts to say that you don't know? Is it that hard for you to say?
 
106Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 10:59
If you could slap Juanita Broaddrick in the face and have Bill Clinton as president one more term you'd do it in a heartbeat.
 
107Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 11:16
and the unraveling continues.

91, 99, 103, 104, and 106 are some pretty insane rants.

muslims, jews, mexicans, liberals, socialists/marxists/communists (even if he doesn't know the definition and difference of those three), and now women aren't safe from his off-the-wall comments.

Harpies? Gold Diggers? bitches? and now talking about slapping a woman in the face???

dude. is. nuts.

 
108Razor
      ID: 569263121
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 11:16
What are you saying? Do you even know what you are writing?
 
109bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 11:27
Think I'll try the "B Technique" (first two words in post 103).

I know Baldwin would not want Clinton in the White House even if it could be established that he would balance the budget and maintain peace during his term. And, I know that he would back any Tea Party candidate even it it became known he was a serial rapist.
 
110Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 12:16
No proof but what his anger is telling him.
 
111Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 12:23
muslims, jews, mexicans, liberals, socialists/marxists/communists (even if he doesn't know the definition and difference of those three), and now women aren't safe from his off-the-wall comments.

Left out ecoweenies, though he may lump them in with the socialists/marxists/communists crowd.

 
112sarge33rd
      ID: 17109112
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 13:09
(just to stir the pot) left out Masons too.
 
113Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 19:07
What are you saying? Do you even know what you are writing? - Razor

Of course I do.

1) Your Johnny-come-lately concern for presidential sexual harrassment doesn't convince me. Not for a nanosecond.

2) The idea that anyone who ignored Juanita Broaddrick's story which involved the testimony of medical workers...

...could interest me in joining them in a sexual harrassment witch-hunt...is ludicrous.

3) If it turns out Cain bit someone's lip until they submitted to rape, like Clinton did, conservatives will drop him quicker than Harriet Meyers.

But we really know that we are faaaaaar more likely to have a completely bogus sexual assault claim filed against us at work than that Cain has a genuine case in his closet.
 
114sarge33rd
      ID: 17109112
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 19:09
yeah. two settlements, excuse me, agreements with each potentially approaching 100k' are totally indicative of "nothing here folks, move along".
 
115Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 19:13
Is there any businessman here who hasn't settled a bogus legal case because it was far cheaper to pay a small settlement than to win the case in court outright?

Count yourself exceedingly lucky if you haven't gone thru that irritating experience as I have.
 
116Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 19:15
Hey Sarge, try that line, "hey, you are about the same height as my wife" and tell me if the chicks dig it.
 
117Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 21:00
a bogus legal case

We don't know whether they were bogus or not. What we do know is that Cain is seriously endangering the NDA by continuing to call the multiple claims "baseless."
 
118Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 18:46
nothing to see here, no pattern emerging....

A third former employee says she considered filing a workplace complaint over what she considered aggressive and unwanted behavior by Herman Cain when she worked for the presidential candidate in the 1990s. She says the behavior included a private invitation to his corporate apartment
 
119sarge33rd
      ID: 17109112
      Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 19:27
Obviously not an atty, but I would think that IF Cain continues to say the claims hold no merit; the women involved would be released from the NDA in order to defend themselves. That happens, and this could potentially get gawd awful ugly for Cain, and in a REAL hurry. He might be best served, by just shutting his yap.
 
120Razor
      ID: 09441723
      Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 22:31
Baldwin - please reconcile your comments in 113 with comments I've made in this thread. Thanks. Also, please comment on how you think someone with a perfect moral compass might respond.
 
121Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 11:02
Now we're up to five.

Even Jennifer Rubin seems a little put out by the soap opera, and Cain's inability to work through this--instead, spending time demanding an apology from another campaign after accusing them of leaking the story.
 
122Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 12:18
The growing number of corroborators of Cain's harassment should bring increasing credibility to the notion that he has habitually displayed inappropriate conduct when dealing with women in a professional setting.

If you're willing to give him the benefit of doubt, it still leaves the bewildering fact that the campaign was apparently blindsided by the Politico article. Through all the twisting and backtracking on his anti-Muslim bigotry and opinions about abortion and a foreign that basicly rejects the importance of foreign policy, it's clear that "unconventional campaign" means amateur hour, if some of the political ads weren't enough of a clue on their own. Whether his behavior ever reached the level of sexual harassment or not, floundering denials and quickly changing stories make the "unconventional candidate" look exactly like the truth-fearing politician he claims he is not.

Even if you're prepared to forgive every detail that comes out of this scandal, it's surely a major blow to his electability rating for a lot of people. If they couldn't prepare for a scandal they knew was out there and which he insists a rival campaign knew all about, what is he going to do when the stakes are raised next year? This is barely a practice round for fighting off negative attacks from opposing campaigns and their supporters.
 
123Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 12:52
And I know that unlike the media's failure to vet Clinton's looooong history of sexual harrassment...

...We for sure know one black man the MSM intends to keep in his place with their typical 'black man is a sexual threat' racism.


so, are you still playing the race card here, or is this now becoming the media vetting Cain's apparent looooong history of sexual harrassment?
 
124Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 13:21
Give him some time, tree. The conservative media has to come up with his response first.
 
125Great One
      ID: 574139
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 13:27
 
126Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 17:31
As Irritating as it is to allow these women to have cashed in and then their getting to publicly slander anyway, we're going to have to hear the worst they can do and see if any of it rises to the level of real sexual harrassment or if it's just a 'I didn't like his sense of humor and realized I could cash in' sorta thing.
 
127Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 17:32
And yes it is a good thing it came out now and not later, another reason we know it was a republican who leaked it.

And as a bonus it knocked Perry out of the race as no TP member would touch him now.
 
128Great One
      ID: 231015317
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 18:15
"thats why our blacks are so much better than their blacks" - Ann Coulter.

Classic.
 
129Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 18:25
Man, Boldwin has no fear in putting the latest conservative lies out there. Now it is that *Perry* leaked all this (despite Cain's people already swiftly walking back that claim).

As has been noted before, this information was there, Cain knew it, and it appears that no one in his campaign had any strategy for which the information was revealed.

Another clue that Cain is simply not running for President--he probably never thought he'd get this far.
 
130Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 19:40
Cain personally walked back his campaign's walkback on Hannity's radio show today.

Amateur hour.
 
131Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 20:32
see if any of it rises to the level of real sexual harrassment or if it's just a 'I didn't like his sense of humor and realized I could cash in' sorta thing.

what exactly is "real" sexual harassment? let me help you.

if Cain told jokes of a sexual nature to the victim and the victim asked him to stop but he kept telling the jokes, that, by definition is "real" sexual harassment.
 
132sarge33d
      ID: 451057311
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 21:06
now tree, just as B feels justified in redefining murder as something other than our criminal law does, he will also feel justified here to redefine "real sexual harassment" (as opposed to faux???) to something other than what the law defines.
 
133Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 23:03
I can't believe I missed this.

Cain on China:
My China strategy is quite simply outgrow China. … [W]e already have superiority in terms of our military capability, and I plan to get away from making cutting our defense a priority and make investing in our military capability a priority, going back to my statement: peace through strength and clarity. So yes they’re a military threat. They’ve indicated that they’re trying to develop nuclear capability and they want to develop more aircraft carriers like we have. So yes, we have to consider them a military threat.
Dude.
 
134sarge33d
      ID: 451057311
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 23:22
talk about "not quite ready for primetime"
 
135Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 23:29
MITH post 133.

Yeah, I heard that yesterday and laughed.

My question for the Tea Party people out there, is it worse to sexually harass women as the leader of a lobby organization in Wash DC or... to be the leader of a lobby organization in Wash DC?

Really, he was the lead lobbyist in the belly of the Beast!
 
136Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 04:19
This is a mistake Allen West and Michelle Bachmann don't make.

Charisma is over-rated anyway.
 
137Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 04:20
Got flustered and mixed up his Iran cards and his China cards. Lotta flustering going on.
 
138bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 08:52
Iran wants to develop "more aircraft carriers like we have"?
 
139walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 08:57
John Stewart did a funny bit on the Cain quote MITH shows in #133. Like, they developed nuclear weapons in the 1960s, dude.

I have to believe at some point, if Cain continues to be the clear front-runner through some primaries, for whatever bizarro reason, he'd eventually come out and say: "I've changed my mind, I was only doing this to raise awareness and rally the conservative party." Something like that. He is so uninformed, so inarticulate, and so clearly motivated by the revenue-generating aspects of this, I don't think he wants to be President...and now that the attention is mainly negative, I think this announcement could happen sooner rather than later. Then again, "all publicity is good."
 
140Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 10:29
No, the China aircraft carrier thing is very real, very recent and very significant.

As we'll find out one of these days when we send the fleet out to saber-rattle on behalf of Taiwan.
 
141Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 10:37
China's first aircraft carrier 'starts sea trials' - BBC 10/3/11

What's this, Cain knew about a very significant development ya'll dint? Heh...at least it was in his cards.

Also:

The PLA has invested heavily in submarines. It is believed to be close to deploying the world's first "carrier-killer" ballistic missile, designed to sink aircraft carriers while they are manoeuvring at sea up to 1,500km (930 miles) offshore, and it is building its own stealth fighter aircraft along with advanced carrier-based aircraft built from Russian designs.

 
142Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 10:45
And very old news. China is, indeed, expected to develop a nuclear powered aircraft carrier--around 2020 or so, from what I've read. They only just launched their first conventional carrier last month or so.

Who would be so stupid as to "saber rattle" China on anything with a fleet? Well, so long as the GOP keeps running idiots as their presidential candidates, I suppose we have to allow for that possibility.

As for Cain, I am of the mind that he just misspoke. Of course, such a thing is easily corrected/amended, something which he hasn't done. So either he really is that stupid as to say such a thing, or he really is stupid to think it doesn't need correction. Take your pick.
 
143Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 10:46
While we are at it, an interesting overview of why Russia has never been a serious aircraft carrier player.
 
144Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 10:50
Who would be so stupid as to "saber rattle" China on anything with a fleet? - PD

Who would be so heartless as to consign Taiwan to the heartless fate of capitulation with their old enemies, China?

That's right, democrats would.

The USA has been regularly doing just that [saber-rattling on behalf of Taiwan] for many decades.

Sabber-rattling is the whole point of the aircraft carrier group.
 
145Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 11:12
Oh dear Lord. Now the Democrats "lost Taiwan" is the new meme?

Really--get a hobby.
 
146Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 11:56
The USA has been regularly doing just that [saber-rattling on behalf of Taiwan] for many decades.

Until very recently, the USA didn't saber-rattle for Taiwan. We saber-rattled for the brutal and oppressive regime of mainland China's Chiang Kai-shek and his succesors, while native Taiwanese were under martial law and politically and economically excluded.

 
147Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 12:21
Does the slowest-witted regular at this forum need "cards" to remember which of Iran and China has been a nuclear power for half a century and which has been actively trying to proliferate?

Boldwin is right that Bachmann and Allen West don't need cards to risk mixing up. Nor does anyone who has ever seriously competed for major party nomination in my lifetime. If the GOP is so broken that Cain really is immune to the usual vetting process, he'll be compared to Walter Mondale at every Thanksgiving table next year.

Are they so easily charmed by the black walnut's "charisma" that they are somehow oblivious to his buffoonery?

Or do they not understand or really care anything about Fforeign policy either? Maybe they just figure that if a ridiculous Democrat like Obama can manage foreign policy well enough to not get attacked that the Patriot Acts must have really nailed it and thanks to W there isnt much to it now?

If I were a conservative who didn't want to see another neocon running American foreign policy, I wouldn't support the guy who might not have any grasp of what neoconservatism is selecting advisors who he will hand possibly unprecedented influence to.
 
148Frick
      ID: 387512315
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 13:01
I think that Cain is popular because the majority of people who support him (and sadly, vote in general) don't have any grasp on the issues. We moan about the poor test scores of today's students, but are their parents any better in general?
 
149sarge33d
      ID: 451057311
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 13:36
148, may very well be one of THE key posts of the year.
 
150Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 17:27
Does the slowest-witted regular at this forum need "cards" to remember which of Iran and China has been a nuclear power for half a century and which has been actively trying to proliferate?

Lol...yeah, Ill accept that description...sheesh...that depends on how many millions of people are in the audience. Then again I am a highly trained public speaker.
 
151Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 17:46
I don't understand post 150.
 
152Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 19:57
I am a highly trained public speaker.



and here you are, wearing your pretty red shirt!

 
153Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 21:18
#151

I what part don't you understand? I'll wait.
 
154Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 00:06
what part

Every part not in italics. Do you think I'm referring to anyone in particular as the slowest-witted regular? I don't understand the sarcasm of pretending I'm referring to you or the sarcasm of "accepting that description" for yourself. Or why you seem to think the references to audience size or your or someone else's public speaking prowess are clever.

What I do know is that all of the most damning arguments made since last night about how unbelievably inept the Cain campaign has been run have been sidestepped with distractions about Taiwan policy, the history of Russian aircraft carrier design and whatever post 150 is about.
 
155Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 02:58
Yeah, I pretty much expect every insult to be directed at me by now. That's the trend.
 
156Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 12:27
It wasn't a reference to any particular forum member. The point was that even nobody here is so unfamiliar with China being a long-tenured nuclear power that they might confuse that status with Iran's proliferation goals. It's not like he mixed up Ethiopia's proliferation status with Kazakstan's.

I don't think it unreasonable for the average voter to expect a serious presidential candidate to be better versed than oneself on the issues. Personally, I know plenty enough people who are much smarter than me to know this isn't a particularly stringent standard.
 
157Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 12:59
Cain needs to add this to his Netflix Q.
Roaring across the Horizon.

 
158Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 13:12
MITH

Again, stand in front of several million people with your future riding on the outcome and see how infallible your memory and speech becomes.

I can safely say without the slightest doubt that when and if he is ever in a cabinet meeting he isn't going to be overlooking China's military assets or the details of how the 'right of return' issue effects Israel. You know it and I know it.
 
159Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 13:31
Again, stand in front of several million people with your future riding on the outcome and see how infallible your memory and speech becomes.

but it's not complicated, high-level stuff. it's common knowledge stuff, something that is so simple that it shouldn't be any more challenging than breathing.

sure, it's possible he mis-spoke. but he has done that repeatedly, and in particular, with foreign policy stuff. if it happened once or twice, "Hey, that stuff happens," but here, it sure seems as if there's a lack of knowledge and understanding.

it's not a lot different from all the sexual harassment stuff being brought up. once or twice, well, "hey, this stuff happens," but we're up to 5 now, and i'd wager there's plenty more.

there's a clear pattern emerging here in several places.

 
160Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 13:42
There was a reason Allen West was my favorite among the bunch.

Best thinking on his feet. More Charisma than Bachmann.
 
161sarge33rd
      ID: 461034512
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 13:44
I would wager heavily, he gave MANY speeches, with less time to prepare, before corporate honchos and Bd of Dir's; where he felt FAR more pressure than he has felt to date in this campaign. He has been treated with kid gloves to date, and if his position in the polls should continue...those gloves will come off. He hasnt handled the tender jostling very well. No way in hell, he endures a full press beatdown.
 
162Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:25
Perhaps anyone can name another instance when presidential nomination frontrunner made a blunder on the same level - in a television studio? If so, how did he fare after that?

Moreover, my concern is not that he won't be sufficiently briefed prior to cabinet meetings, but whom such a know-nothing might choose to advise him. The neocons drooled over the prospect of puppeteering Sarah Palin into one of their own. Where is the slightest indicator that Cain grasps foreign policy well enough to even know the difference before selecting advisors and cabinet members? Does he know whether he'd prefer Pat Buchanon or Dick Cheney? How would his anti-Muslim bigotry guide his Middle East policy? What was his opinion of the Iraq invasion at the time or in hindsight? On nation building there or elsewhere? How, exactly would he deal with Iran?

Obama's willingness to open a high-level dialogue with Iran and to take out OBL without Pakistani permission were hysteria-inducing on the right, prompting widespread praise from that side for Clinton's 3am phone call ad. Why aren't such specifics also crucial for Cain?

How would Boldwin have reacted if Obama said on national TV in late 2007 that China is a threat because they are trying to develop the bomb?
 
163Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:32
And for the record, once Cain announced, B said unequivocally that he didn't care who was at the top of his Cain/West dream ticket. They were his co-favorites at the top of the bunch.
 
164Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 14:47
For the record I have always liked them in the following order, West then Bachmann then Cain.
 
165sarge33rd
      ID: 461034512
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 15:26
That Bachmann, a snivelling, lying biatch whose only income has come from the Govt trough (a habit you decry frequently) even makes your list...is telling in the degree of disingenuousness you are comfortable displaying.
 
166Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Nov 05, 2011, 15:37
His own Jeremiah Wright, not quite but just enuff for my purposes.

You might like the story tho.
 
167Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 19:52
9 point drop in the latest poll.
 
168Perm Dude
      ID: 549411117
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 19:55
I guess those abandoning the Cain ship just hate strong black conservative men.
 
169Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 20:43
He was their 3rd choice all along anyway.
 
170Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 23:13
Tell it to Allen West.
 
171Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 23:49
Tell what, exactly?
 
172Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 01:15
"just hate strong black conservative men"
 
173sarge33rd
      ID: 47108610
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 02:21
how low will you stoop, to misquote and take out of context?
 
174Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 03:17
liars gonna lie.
 
175Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 11:47
Anyone see my fork?
 
176Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 15:13
Baldwin - see if any of it rises to the level of real sexual harrassment or if it's just a 'I didn't like his sense of humor and realized I could cash in' sorta thing.

Woman accuses Cain of reaching for genitals

that's an odd sense of humor.

 
177Razor
      ID: 569263121
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 15:37
Gold digger. What businessman hasn't had someone go after them?

Note that Boldwin has never worked in Big Business...
 
178Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 19:10
I've been the victim of frivolous lawsuits against my company tho. Suits that were cheaper to pay off than to take to court and win outright.
 
179Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 20:49
I've been the victim of frivolous lawsuits against my company tho. Suits that were cheaper to pay off than to take to court and win outright.

is a woman suing you because you reached for her genitals considered "frivolous"?
 
180Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 23:21
I'm sorry, who is filing any lawsuit?
 
181Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 23:24
It is looking more and more likely that there is some meat on the bones of these particular complaints.

Yes, insurance companies often times compel settlements of these complaints because it is less expensive. Which is why it was no surprise to me that Cain didn't know the full details of the settlements (he wouldn't, typically, know the amount of money, for example, and so on).

But the belief that the workplace is full of moneygrubbing women looking for quick cash by claiming to have their asses tapped doesn't reflect the reality of what it takes to make the claim that your boss stepped over the line.
 
182Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 00:26
But the belief that the workplace is full of moneygrubbing women looking for quick cash

The world if full of money obsessed greedheads who think the one percent owes them a big payout.

 
183Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 00:28
And pretty boys with $400 haircuts, $2000 suits and smooth tongues who are expert at delivering.
 
184Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 01:06
The world if full of money obsessed greedheads who think the one percent owes them a big payout.

Maybe. There are certainly lots and lots of people who expect others to pay their way. Most of those people already have the means to do so, however.

The 99%'ers are, for the most part, asking the 1% to stop gaming the system. To pay a fair tax rate. And to stop breaking the law. Simple stuff, really. Unfortunately they have people like you making excuses for them.

Meanwhile, you simply can't shut up about the women for whom Cain's organization paid a series of hush money checks, as though it is obvious that they are lying. Without proof, you simply are making it up.
 
185Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 01:32
Yeah, go ask all the actual 1%'ers you know how many times they've been the victim of frivilous lawsuits.

It may be a lottery how many times you run into them but the wealthy and high profile have real good odds in that lottery. Real good.
 
186Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 02:06
Anyone care to explain what the registered Republican who came foward today stands to gain? Despite the lein on her house, she's said she has no lawsuit intentions and will not seek to profit from speaking with the media.

Is there any reason for why her story should be regarded as less than likely?

In addition to the glaring foreign policy shortcomings that should ward off any sane voter, at this point it's also looking like Mr. Cain falls well short of the values standards demanded by the religious right. Which in turn exacerbates into an integrity problem as the truth seems to have become a tactic of last resort (if considered at all) in mitigating the scandal. Which exposes quite an organizational competence deficiency when you consider that Cain should have been well-prepared for this at the start of his campaign and was even given some 10 days notice by Politico to form a response strategy before they ran the story.

I really hate to cite Mike Lupica on anything that isn't sports-related but he asked a great question in a column this week; forget the presidency, would you even hire this guy to run a pizza chain today?

Once in a while you just have to accept that your sense of character doesn't always live up to the regard you like to prop up for it. Happens to the best of us.
 
187Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 02:24
My wife, who doesn't have the slightest political leanings just heard that latest blond and she doesn't buy it. Too rehearsed, too unlikely.

I'm trying to imagine the exact scenario she described and I can't imagine him thinking that approach would work. Then again I've never been in that alpha male state of mind thinking every woman wants to B me. Clinton seemed to think so. Maybe Cain has that narcissistic streak.

I generally trust my wife's judgement of people especially women.
 
188Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 02:27
PD

I am very serious about that request. You run into plenty of high profile people and I'd like to hear the numbers of frivolous lawsuits they've attracted.
 
189Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 02:43
Baldwin - I'm trying to imagine the exact scenario she described and I can't imagine him thinking that approach would work.


From a report on the incident:

She said the two had finished dinner and were in a car for what she thought was a ride to an office building.

"Instead of going into the offices he suddenly reached over and he put his hand on my leg, under my skirt toward my genitals," she said.

"He also pushed my head toward his crotch," she added.


the issue isn't necessarily that he thought this approach would work, it's that he did it.

if you don't think guys don't do and say incredibly dumb things to get in a woman's panties, then you must be living on an island. it happens probably every minute of every hour of every day.

now, granted, this woman, and the other four women, could all be lying. that's an absolute possibility. but a pattern is beginning to be established, and you saying "men don't act that way" displays an incredible lack of knowledge of what goes on nearly every day.
 
190Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 02:46
Her account of what happened in the car doesn't sound unlikely to me. Sounds like a cocky mofo who's used to getting what he wants from women after a dinner with enough drinks to make him overconfident that he'd sealed the deal.
 
191Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 04:19
I am definitely not the best judge of how doable that would be.
 
192Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 05:10
I also know some very very attractive, sexy, effusive, funny people who are so outrageous with their sense of humor that I have no idea what they would or wouldn't do in private to match their humor.

These people would be lawsuit magnets if they had any money. In fact I fear for the businesses they work for. I really do.
 
193Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 06:57
Uh, right. Herman Cain attracted a series of sexual harassment lawsuits because of some sort of earthy humor that women didn't get. And this happened to a series of women in the three years he was there.

I'm sure you don't mean to sound desperate, but you really do. Casting about like this without any real context or information just sounds desperate.
 
194Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 08:20
#189

The part left out is that she asked him to stop and he did. She asked him to take her back to the hotel and he did.
A guy puts a move on a girl. Happens millions of times a day. It's what happens next that really matters. Does he take no for an answer or not. According to this woman, he did. Case closed, except as it relates to marital infidelity, and if you're a Clinton fan, then that doesn't rate high on your negatives list.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and introduce what seems to be taboo - Cain hitting on white women. Those who think that will have no effect with Southern and Midwest "values" voters are kidding themselves. As long as Cain represented the model of a successful black businessman with conservative ideals and an anti-beltway swagger, he was not only acceptable, but desireable as a candidate. But when it turns out he has a propensity for making moves on our white women, he's done.

Am I claiming that those who feel that way are racist? Sort of, but not necessarily. Most of these people probably have no problem with anti-discrimination as far as jobs, housing, education and basic equal opportunity, just as long as you keep your eyes and hands off my daughter.
 
195Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 08:53
PD

Desperate?

'Splain to me why you don't want Cain to be the nominee if you think this is an electability killer?

Honestly I don't think it would be a bad thing to revisit Bachmann and West [or even Newt] at this point. If the presumption that Cain's charisma gave him a great electability edge, and that's the main reason TP voters moved to his column, let's look at electability again.

If he wins the nomination anyway, I'd love to watch PV proved wrong with his latest half-racism card.

This isn't looking good for the family values wing of the TP, it's only helping the RINO-Romney and I'm more and more thinking West.

And it could even mellow people towards the [allegedly-legal disclaimer] rapist Clinton...not acceptable.
 
196Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 09:14
Let me also throw out there...

What genuine Tea Partier would have anything to do with Gloria Alred?

 
197Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 09:55
What genuine Tea Partier would have anything to do with Gloria Alred?

I don't think it's ever been established what constitutes a "genuine Tea Partier." Most of it seems to be a bandwagon clearinghouse anymore.

 
198Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 10:14
No. They don't go to war at the side of uber-liberal PC ambulance chasers. It would be like me teaming up with Rachel Maddow.

 
199Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 10:35
I suppose you consider yourself a "genuine Tea Partier." You, who considers abortion to be murder; claims global warming is a hoax; detests the media, education, the environment, secular humanism and numerous other issues that have absolutely nothing to do with the original intent of the Tea Party. As I said, it's just a bandwagon clearinghouse anymore, exemplified perfectly by claiming Mitt Romney is a RINO, based not on his economic positions or leadership skills, but his natural tendency toward moderation(which, unfortunately he's all but abandoned). Oh, and he's Mormon, which puts him in the "not really a Christian" column that also has nothing to do with "genuine Tea Party."
 
200Razor
      ID: 569263121
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 10:42
The evidence is in, people: Boldwin's wife says she didn't do it.

Cain turned out to be more than a flavor of the week, but rather a flavor of the month.

This race is over: Romney it is. The Tea Partiers who claim to not want to support a RINO will soon do so in spades in the name of "Anybody but Obama." Enjoy your Ivy League-educated, individual mandate candidate.
 
201Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 10:55
I am having such a sense of deja vu.

My business went thru one spate of phony law suits.

All Cain's 'trouble' is from one tiny segment of his career.

My accusers all knew about each other and got the idea of how easy it was to force a easy money settlement from each other.

In my case the first guy who got the ball rolling had just been laid-off and talked his way into working one more day. Pulled a phony slip and fall right off his first break of the morning.

Cain's accuser had just been fired.

For what btw?
 
202Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 10:56
Baldwin - I also know some very very attractive, sexy, effusive, funny people who are so outrageous with their sense of humor that I have no idea what they would or wouldn't do in private to match their humor.

i'm baffled by this statement. an outrageous sense of humor would some how make it ok to make unwanted sexual gestures toward someone?


PV - #189

The part left out is that she asked him to stop and he did. She asked him to take her back to the hotel and he did.


fair enough, and true enough. by the standards of sexual harassment, as i understand them, this was not sexual harassment. crude, and inappropriate, for sure, but that's not against the law.

in this situation, i question whether Cain's denials of wrongdoing brought this woman out. if he had said "yea, i did this. i'm not proud," perhaps it might have been different.

PV, re 199 I suppose you consider yourself a "genuine Tea Partier."

in your list, you left out "non-voter" and "doesn't know the difference between socialism, marxism, and communism."

 
204Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 11:13
Anyone else ever worked somewhere where there was a photocopied joke on the wall..."Sexual harrassment will not be prosecuted...But it will be graded."?
 
205Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 11:49
It makes them a sitting duck for a law suit. Regardless of whether they are guilty. Guilt by personality.
 
206Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 11:55
guilt by stupidity. why on earth would anybody post that, knowing the climate of harassment these days?

granted, all this is more anecdotal commentary, and not the meat of the matter. AT LEAST four different women have accused Cain of harassment. that's significant.
 
207Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 12:54
She isn't suing. Isn't extorting him in exchange for silence. Isn't getting paid for talking to the media. She's either telling the truth or deranged.

The conservative radio host who claims to have witnessed Cain's aggressive behavior with his own employees in a professional setting isn't suing or otherwise profiting from the claim either as far as I know

I argued that Cain should get the benefit of doubt before buying into this when we were just talking about a single settled lawsuit from some number of years ago.

But now keeping the discussion in the context of whether any lawsuits are frivolous is just a strawman to block the more relevant discussion about whether his base will uphold their own standard of rejecting a pol for this character flaw which looks more and more likely to be true every day.

If this married man has been running around aggressively hitting on collegues and other women in professional settings and then repeatedly lied about it to the voters and the country he wants to lead then I'm at a loss for why Newt has been such an afterthought all this time due to his "baggage".

And for the record I don't recall any conservatives delegitimizing Anthony Weiner's porn star floozie because she was represented by Gloria Alred.
 
208Razor
      ID: 569263121
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 13:53
Why is Cain out having dinner and drinks with a fired employee? It's not inappropriate per se, just unusual for a mid-level employee to suddenly be out with the big boss, especially after being canned.

Either way, one of them is full of it. Unlike Boldwin's wife, I'm not sure who it is.
 
209boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:43
Why is Cain out having dinner and drinks with a fired employee?

not that it really matters but I did not think she work for him, she had just lost her job and though Cain could help her get a new one.
 
210Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 16:43
Interesting local news I'm getting here in her sweet home Chicago.

A) She's a real publicity hound. Always working in promotion of some kind.

B) Lived in the same building as David Axelrod, tho it's a huge complex so maybe they didn't meet...maybe. Tho it sounds like she would be the one that would want to connect with another famous person.

C) She once worked at the same radio station with DJ Steve Dahl in some unusual revenue dept. Not the regular ads., working with politicians and stuff. So she was spreading the rumor around the station that the local stud DJ had once chased her, when she was younger, not there at the station and Dahl actually had to confront her and get her to stop the rumor mongering as they had just had a brief meaningless conversation one time.
 
211Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 16:45
Also they found the name of the first lawsuit and released it [against her wishes].
 
212Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:41
so, let's see. she's a liar because she works in promotions, lives in the same building as a political consultant, and as a young kid had the hots for a radio DJ.

meanwhile, the four-times accused Herman Cain is telling the truth.

meanwhile, the four-times accused Herman Cain who previously accused the Rick Perry campaign of spreading this information around and is now accusing "the Democratic machine" of manufacturing the issue, is telling the truth.

but my favorite part of the article? In response to a question from a reporter, the presidential candidate signaled he'd be willing to take "a lie detector test" to prove he's not guilty of any wrongdoing when it comes to the charges. He added, however, "But I'm not going to do that unless I have a good reason to do that."

how about to prove, Herman Cain, you're telling the truth?
 
213Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:48
If she has a history of bragging about all the famous people she's known and been chased by it's relevant.

Could be her favorite story.

Could be she doesn't just promote other people.

 
214sarge33rd
      ID: 381040814
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:57
could be, you are making blind defenses for a fella PURELY. because there is an "R" behind his name. Aw who am I trying to kid? Could be hell, most likely.
 
215Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 18:18
Could be Herman Cain is a serial harasser, and anything short of a Herman Cain sex tape won't sway Baldwin. heck, i'm pretty sure that if there was a Herman Cain sex tape, Baldwin would proclaim it a look-alike, and blame Alinsky.
 
216Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 19:48
She once worked at the same radio station with DJ Steve Dahl in some unusual revenue dept. Not the regular ads., working with politicians and stuff. So she was spreading the rumor around the station that the local stud DJ had once chased her, when she was younger, not there at the station and Dahl actually had to confront her and get her to stop the rumor mongering as they had just had a brief meaningless conversation one time.

What station? What year? I ask because I know Steve Dahl, through my time at Major Networks and my best friend, Steve Seaver, worked at WLUP(the LOOP) with Dahl. Turned out Dahl and I grew up in the same California town, so we hit it off and got together for drinks several times. Keep in mind that Steve Dahl wasn't just a DJ. He was Howard Stern's biggest influence. He had serious problems with alcohol, so even remembering all the girls he hustled leads me to believe that the above story is questionable at best.

 
217DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 19:53
Odds of questions in post 216 getting answered in a coherent manner without massive backpedaling on the story: 500-1.
 
218sarge33rd
      ID: 381040814
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 19:54
aint it a biatch, when your BS story runs into someone who knows one of the main characters IN the story?
 
219Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 20:13
Just so no one thinks I'm BSing, here's some background.

In early 1991, WFYR-FM (103.5), an adult contemporary and AC/oldies station in Chicago for many years, was sold by its parent company Summit Communications to Major Broadcasting of Chicago. Major, a newer company had success with a high-energy hard rock format in Salt Lake City at KBER-FM.

The initial on-air staff consisted of Steven Craig (mornings), Steve Seaver middays (now at The Loop)

By 1994, Major sold the station to Evergreen Media, parent company of WLUP-FM (97.9) and WMVP-AM (1000). Glam rock had started to run its course and Major made a tidy sum on the sale. They divested into television by producing "The Mort Downey Show", as well as syndicated radio formats
and became Major Networks.

Correction, the sale of the Blaze to Evergreen was in 1993, and we produced and syndicated Morton Downey on radio, not TV. Seaver, Dahl, Downey and I once got together for a Bear's Monday Night Football game at the Saluki Bar in Chicago. We all took cabs home for obvious reasons.
 
220Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 20:33
'Splain to me why you don't want Cain to be the nominee if you think this is an electability killer?

I never said anything about wanting Cain to be (or not be) the nominee.
 
221Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 02:48
I have no idea what station Dahl was on before, because I am a one station listener and didn't care at the time he told it, but I do know that Dahl was on the Roe and Roper Show on WLS today as a guest and that is the story he told about half an hour before I posted that.

Are you actually telling me he was such a drunk he can't remember whether he confronted Bialek?

BTW it seems that his last station folded or changed formats or something and Dahl is temporarily selling his podcasts on WLS as well as substitute DJ'ing until he lands somewhere. He wasn't on the air just to tell that story.
 
222Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 02:49
And if you know him so well give him a call and confirm it.
 
223Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 03:42
Sooo close...WLS has a Roe and Roeper blog which has a podcast of today's show, but only 12 minutes of it where they interviewed Michael Steele.
 
224Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 03:46
If you want to sign up for his $10 monthly podcasts, first month free, he discusses Bialek's accusing him in this podcast.
 
225Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 03:56
Here is a synopsis of the show I refered to.
The upshot? Sharon Bialek has recently applied for a job at WIND and is going to get her second interview soon. Sharon Bialek accused Steve as well but he didn’t do anything. Sharon didn’t have any details on Steve, he was apparently just flirtatious...

...The Multimedia Message of the Day is brought to us by Fabbrini’s Flowers. Today’s message is from Adam Bailey, with whom we used to work. Steve didn’t really do this in the right order but Adam emailed Steve about Sharon Bialek working at WCKG as our NTR (non traditional revenue)
He was more specific about the trouble she was making for him and his confronting her.
 
226Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 04:01
BTW she was all hugs with Cain a month ago at a Tea Party event. The poor thing.
 
227Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 04:05
Neal boortz, says someone at the NRA says this woman was fired from the NRA for a false report against her immediate supervision.
 
228Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 04:44
I think she tried to shake him down at that Tea Party event.
 
229Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 04:53

TeaCon meeting in Schaumburg Sept. 30-Oct. 1

Seriously? Does this look like a woman traumatized by Herman Cain?
 
230Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 04:55
Source
 
231Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 04:56
"Promise me WH communications director or you are toast."
 
232Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 05:03


Looks awful happy to be with this woman.

His wife.

And vice versa.
 
233Tree
      ID: 22105897
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 08:58
blame the victim.
 
234Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 09:23
The willingness of the Right to turn on and demonize people they don't know and don't know anything about is in full view on this issue.
 
235Razor
      ID: 569263121
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 10:16
This thread would be best served to remain about Cain rather than solely about Boldwin's personal thoughts on the matter.
 
236Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 10:26
And if you know him so well give him a call and confirm it.

Didn't know him well. This was 18 years ago. I was only in Chicago 4 months, 11/93-2/94, although I did spend a week there in '91 when we bought the Blaze training their sales staff, and again in later in '94 for a corporate management seminar.

I have no idea what happened with Dahl and Bialek. Dahl was a high profile local radio celebrity back then, also married, so if he was being flirtatious, it's likely he would want it hushed. He hasn't really been relevant for quite a while, so injecting himself into the conversation could simply be a move to get his name back into the media to promote his faded career. Doesn't matter to me, I think the link in #230 is much more an indictment of her credibility.
 
237Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 10:50
This thread would be best served to remain about Cain rather than solely about Boldwin's personal thoughts on the matter.

The entire Political forum would be best served that way. I'm still in favor of a Baldwin scrub-bot, a program that would go through the entire forum and remove his posts, all of them. He treats this place like a cat treats his litter box.
 
238Razor
      ID: 569263121
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 11:29
What, you mean 13 posts in a row with no value isn't enough? At least when I add no value posts, they are one at a time and only a couple times a day.
 
239DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:17
If Jerry Sandusky were an ultra-conservative Republican, there would be 35 posts from Boldwin saying Victim Number Six asked for it by being there. I'm convinced.
 
240Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:32
SZ

Tell you what. Beg B7 and Boikin to get in here and hold down the fort.

 
241Perm Dude
      ID: 549411117
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:42
Why? In particular, why do you think that others (who aren't dicks) need to step in to cover what we are hoping is the loss of progressively dickish posting?
 
242Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 13:29
Because I just uncovered half a dozen issues overnight that needed revelation here, and I don't care who does it as long as it gets done.

The conservative voice is swamped by liberals here so the pretense that you are hearing too many conservative posts from me is ridiculous until you can come up with some other conservative posting.
----------------------------------

Karen Kraushaar, 55, filed the complaint while working as a spokeswoman at the Immigration and Naturalization Service in the Justice Department in late 2002 or early 2003, with the assistance of her lawyer, Joel Bennett, who also handled her earlier sexual harassment complaint against Cain in 1999. Three former supervisors familiar with Kraushaar's complaint...

settled a sexual harassment complaint against GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain in 1999 complained three years later at her next job about unfair treatment, saying she should be allowed to work from home after a serious car accident and accusing a manager of circulating a sexually charged email, The Associated Press has learned.

To settle the complaint at the immigration service, Kraushaar initially demanded thousands of dollars in payment, a reinstatement of leave she used after the accident earlier in 2002, promotion on the federal pay scale and a one-year fellowship to Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, according to a former supervisor familiar with the complaint. The promotion itself would have increased her annual salary between $12,000 and $16,000, according to salary tables in 2002 from the U.S. Office of Personnel Management.

Kraushaar told the AP she considered her employment complaint "relatively minor" and she later dropped it.

That's a whole lotta damages sought for a 'sexually charged e-mail" and being denied the privilege of working from wherever she wanted to.

Some people think the courts are the lottery and that you are just necessary collateral damage on the road to their pot-o-gold.
 
243DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 13:50
And some people think certain Republicans should be able to grope a bunch of women if it would otherwise damage their ability to become President.

Which kind are you?
 
244Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 13:54
We haven't even heard a false charge of groping against Cain yet.

Do I need to refresh your memory of what Kathleen Whiley went thru so you can remember what real harassment and groping looks like?
 
245Perm Dude
      ID: 549411117
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 13:57
Some people think the courts are the lottery ...

And without any real information about Cain's cases you seem willing to accuse people of that.

Any guesses that the second accuser is also called a gold digger by the harassment enablers?

I guess when you believe yourself to be under attack, there are no longer any lengths that some on the Right won't go to "protect" themselves.
 
246Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 14:06
Nah, Bialek is a fame hound. Fame which might lead to a job rubbing up against even more famous people.
 
247Perm Dude
      ID: 549411117
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 14:08
Ah, of course. It is all about her. And you know this because she is making the accusation, right?

The beauty of this, IMO, is that Cain's mismanagement of this whole thing will result in the unsealing of those agreements because he, on his own, violated the NDA clauses for them all.
 
248DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 14:14
"We haven't even heard a false charge of groping against Cain yet.

Do I need to refresh your memory of what Kathleen Whiley went thru so you can remember what real harassment and groping looks like? "

Tell you what, go find my posts about what an evil bitch she was for golddigging and get back to me. Until then, get the hell out of here with THAT bullshit line of argument.
 
249Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 15:15
PD

There is a beauty to it. Maybe the MSM will learn you are supposed to vet the presidential candidates before they are already president and the questions are all mute.

I can dream the MSM would perform their job, can't I?
 
250DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 15:25
"There is a beauty to it. Maybe the MSM will learn you are supposed to vet the presidential candidates before they are already president and the questions are all mute."

The irony in this post is delicious, considering that that's exactly what's being done.
 
251boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 16:44
It seems to me that it is very likely that both sides are correct cain is a sexual harasser and we have some people taking advantage of that fact.
 
252Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 16:52
Could be, given the number of women involved. The problem is that we don't know enough to say one way or the other.
 
253DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 17:05
Re: 251 -- it's a possibility. Depends on the chronology a bit though, and frankly I can't be bothered to check on it too deeply -- if it's the first one or two that you're saying are taking advantage of that, then just remember you're saying not only that they're golddigger fame hounds, but psychic ones.
 
254sarge33rd
      ID: 4610371014
      Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 16:13
 
255Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 16:26
That's much funnier than I thought it was going to be!
 
256Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 17:44
"because crazy is a flavor that Republicans never tire of"... BRILLIANT!
 
257Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 18:58
OMG. that was freakin' hysterical. and the follow up of him singing "Imagine (there's no pizza)" is pretty damned funny too..
 
258sarge33rd
      ID: 4610371014
      Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 19:04
"pizza pthursday"
 
259sarge33rd
      ID: 4610371014
      Thu, Nov 10, 2011, 19:41
youtube took it down after Funny or Die apparently complained,. Here is a link, to the vid at Funny or Die:

link
 
260Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 05:50
Never get between David Axelrod and a sealed document

or

David Axelrod's Pattern of Sexual Misconduct of :
Herman Cain has spent his life living and working all over the country — Indiana, Georgia, Minnesota, Nebraska, Kansas, Washington, D.C. — but never in Chicago.

So it's curious that all the sexual harassment allegations against Cain emanate from Chicago: home of the Daley machine and Obama consigliere David Axelrod.

Suspicions had already fallen on Sheila O'Grady, who is close with Axelrod and went straight from being former Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley's chief of staff to president of the Illinois Restaurant Association (IRA), as being the person who dug up Cain's personnel records from the National Restaurant Association (NRA).
And strangely enough, Cain's short, three-year tenure at the NRA is evidently the only period in his decades-long career during which he's alleged to have been a sexual predator.

After O'Grady's name surfaced in connection with the miraculous appearance of Cain's personnel files from the NRA, she issued a Clintonesque denial of any involvement in producing them — by vigorously denying that she knew Cain when he was at the NRA. (Duh.)

Herman Cain has never lived in Chicago. But you know who has? David Axelrod! And guess who lived in Axelrod's very building? Right again: Cain's latest accuser, Sharon Bialek.

Within 24 hours of Bialek's press conference, friends and acquaintances of hers stepped forward to say she's a "gold digger," that she was constantly in financial trouble — having filed for personal bankruptcy twice — and, of course, that she had lived in Axelrod's apartment building at 505 North Lake Shore Drive, where, she admits, she knew the man the New York Times calls Obama's "hired muscle."

Throw in some federal tax evasion, and she's Obama's next Cabinet pick.

The reason all this is relevant is that both Axelrod and Daley have a history of smearing political opponents by digging up claims of sexual misconduct against them.

John Brooks, Chicago's former fire commissioner, filed a lawsuit against Daley six months ago claiming Daley threatened to smear him with sexual harassment accusations if Brooks didn't resign. He resigned — and the sexual harassment allegations were later found to be completely false.

...the only reason Obama became a U.S. senator — letting him run for president — is that Axelrod pulled sealed divorce records out of a hat against Obama's Democratic primary opponent, then against Obama's Republican opponent.

One month before the 2004 Democratic primary for the U.S. Senate, Obama was way down in the polls, about to lose to Blair Hull, a multimillionaire securities trader.

Then the Chicago Tribune — where Axelrod used to work — began publishing claims that Hull's second ex-wife, Brenda Sexton, had sought an order of protection against him during their 1998 divorce proceedings.

From then until Election Day, Hull was embroiled in fighting the allegation that he was a "wife beater." He and his ex-wife eventually agreed to release their sealed divorce records. His first ex-wife, daughters and nanny defended him at a press conference, swearing he was never violent. During a Democratic debate, Hull was forced to explain that his wife kicked him and he had merely kicked her back.

Hull's substantial lead just a month before the primary collapsed with the nonstop media attention to his divorce records. Obama sailed to the front of the pack and won the primary. Hull finished third with 10% of the vote.

Luckily for Axelrod, Obama's opponent in the general election had also been divorced.

The Republican nominee was Jack Ryan, a graduate of Dartmouth and Harvard law and business schools, who had left his lucrative partnership at Goldman Sachs to teach at an inner-city school on the South Side of Chicago. [this guy's not in government now but Jeffery Sachs is - sheesh - if only he had been when Goldman Sachs was pulling us down - B]

But in a child custody dispute some years earlier, Ryan's ex-wife, Hollywood sex kitten Jeri Lynn Ryan, alleged that, while the couple was married, Jack had taken her to swinger clubs in Paris and New York. Jack Ryan adamantly denied the allegations. In the interest of protecting their son, he also requested that the records be put permanently under seal.

Axelrod's courthouse moles obtained the "sealed" records and, in no time, they were in the hands of every political operative in Chicago. Knowing perfectly well what was in the records, Chicago Tribune attorneys flew to California and requested that the court officially "unseal" them — over the objections of both Jack and Jeri Ryan.

Your honor, who knows what could be in these records!

A California judge ordered them unsealed, which allowed newspapers to publish the salacious allegations, and four days later Ryan dropped out of the race under pressure from idiot Republicans (who should be tracked down and shot).

With a last-minute replacement of Alan Keyes as Obama's Republican opponent, Obama was able to set an all-time record in an Illinois Senate election, winning with a 43% margin.

And that's how Obama became a senator four years after losing a congressional race to Bobby Rush. (In a disastrous turn of events, Rush was not divorced.) Axelrod destroyed the only two men who stood between Obama and the Senate with illicitly obtained, lurid allegations from their pasts.

In 2007, long after Obama was safely ensconced in the Senate, the New York Times reported: "The Tribune reporter who wrote the original piece (on Hull's sealed divorce records) later acknowledged in print that the Obama camp had 'worked aggressively behind the scenes' to push the story."

Some had suggested, the Times article continued, that Axelrod had "an even more significant role — that he leaked the initial story."

This time, Obama's little helpers have not only thrown a bomb into the Republican primary. They also are hoping to destroy the man who deprives the Democrats of their only argument in 2012: If you oppose Obama, you must be a racist. - She who owns all she surveys
Do we really have to find a candidate who has never been divorced to beat Obama or can we as a nation stop falling for Axelrod's Watergate tactics?
 
261Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 09:11
How about we find the truth first, then decide?
 
262Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 09:27
How about we find one other instance besides these copycat suits?
 
263Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 09:59
You mean, a harassment charge against Cain which isn't a harassment charge like the others?

Why would we be doing that? And how would that manifest itself: A woman who thought Cain putting his hand up her skirt a bit thought it was just a bad joke?

 
264Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 10:00
BTW, the more you defend Cain, the more your anti-Clinton harassment charges sound hollow and simply partisan.
 
265DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 11:41
See, guys, the problem is that if everyone would just shut up and let them cover up the sexual indiscretions, nobody would know about them. Can't you just be quiet and leave these innocent serial harassers alone? Did every Republican in the world go to Penn State and I missed a memo?

On the other hand, Michael Moore can buy a second house and have shots taken at him for it.

Strange world we live in.
 
266Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 11:44
Herman Cain has spent his life living and working all over the country — Indiana, Georgia, Minnesota, Nebraska, Kansas, Washington, D.C. — but never in Chicago.

does one need to live in a location to harass someone in a location?

grasping at straws is a language you understand well, so let's try this one on for size. Cain was on the board of directors of Nabisco, and Nabisco's bakery in Chicago is the largest in the world; ergo, you bought me a falcon.
 
267Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 12:47
PD

Clinton had a string of rape and harrassment across his entire life.

Cain had one phony accuser who once sued a company over the email joke:
The joke circulated online lists reasons men and women were like computers, including that men were like computers because "in order to get their attention, you have to turn them on." Women were like computers because "even your smallest mistakes are stored in long-term memory for later retrieval."
Then Cain had three other women see how easy it was to collect a 35 grand settlement just for calling 1-800-allred and they copied her.

Show me even the start of a pattern anywhere else in his life that would lend any credibility to these charges.
 
268Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 13:37
the fact that you are dismissing four sexual harassment accusations against Cain in such a sexist manner speaks volumes about your character.

there could be 20 of these, and you'd go with the same sexist line of logic. that's your MO.

 
269DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 13:53
Hey, when you're blindly supportive of people covering up vast quantities of pedophiles in their midst, what's a little light groping here and there?
 
270Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 14:53
#267: A house of cards you are building. There is no evidence any of the other women even knew about the first.

In fact, you've got no evidence at all for your comments. You've literally got nothing. But Christ compels you to spew out hurtful language against these women, apparently. Which Gospel are you acting on when you continue to do that? Is there a Gospel According to Dickwad of which I'm unaware?

Is this how you would have Christians act? Or are you all caught up in partisan politics to the point of excluding that which you have stated is more important than anything in your life?

You are choosing the wrong master these days.
 
271Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 15:16
And now back to Cain's demonstrative gaffes:

Cain critizes Obama for canceling space shuttle program and for cooperative space work with the Russians.
 
272Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 18:53
I'm sure it's God's fault.

Cain says God persuaded him to run for president
 
273sarge33rd
      ID: 1110131214
      Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 20:22
that makes God a Dem. He apparently, told Bachmann and Perry AND Cain to run. I'm open to a different explanation, OTHER THAN, they are lying. GOP candidates would never do such a thing. Right B?
 
274Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 10:16
He told them to run, sarge. He didn't tell them they would win.

If He did so, I suspect it is a lesson in humility none of them will learn.
 
275biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 13:07


It had been bugging for some time, who Cain sounded like. Then it clicked. Senator Clay Davis from The Wire! Complete with the scandal.
 
276Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 16:19
Bialek's ex-boyfriend confirms her account of Cain meeting.

As Cain's support softens, Gingrich's rises. Coincidence? This lateral movement doesn't make a sustainable trend, IMO.
 
277Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 23:46
Pamela Geller calls it Cain's "unrecoverable moment" (this, coming from someone who endorsed him).

The guy just doesn't know foreign policy. At all. He doesn't seem to recall a war that occurred while he was running for president.

Why does the Tea Party continue to prop up this clown?
 
278Boldwin
      ID: 1510511410
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 04:21
Because he would make the best use of the bully pulpit of all the candidates with the possible exception of Allen West.

You have to understand we are deaf to your dismissive ' stupid clown' sneering. Any Tea Party candidate is going to get that from you and we'd bet the farm on that. Do you really think any Tea Partier is gonna recoil when someone like you disparages their candidate?

If they didn't get that reaction from you they would be disqualified, knowing the positions it would take to win your respect.
 
279Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 08:31
No one thinks Ron Paul is stupid. Strangely, he is not a Tea Party candidate, probably precisely for that reason. The Tea Party favors uninformed politicians because it's members are uninformed. Anyone without a strong rooting interest in Cain can see that he is in over his head. The same is true of Bacchman and Perry, the other Tea Party darling Presidential candidates.
 
280Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 09:44
#278: Pamela Geller previously endorse Cain, and is the source of the quote in 277.

I know you are in attack mode (and have been for years) but you didn't even recognize that the "sneering" was actually a quote from a disenchanted Cain supporter who is coming now to realize the guy is running for President but doesn't know anything about foreign policy.

So stop running against "sneering" and start waking up to the fact that you have been manipulated into reflexively coming to the support of idiots.

#279: The Tea Party is against government programs which they don't believe benefit them directly. Ron Paul, being a libertarian, unfortunately would be unsparing in what he would cut. Can you imagine the dismay of the Tea Party when a President Paul cuts the military by half (or more), kills the Farm Bill, and ends Social Security and Medicare?
 
281Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 10:19
Do you really think any Tea Partier is gonna recoil when someone like you disparages their candidate?

i'm pretty sure PD doesn't care whether a Tea Partier is going to recoil or not. But, like anyone else with even a lick of common sense, it's probably clear to him that the Tea Party is going to die on the vine, and it's going to be a slow suicide because of people like you...
 
282Boldwin
      ID: 2510471511
      Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 13:36
Razor

Everyone thinks Ron Paul is stupid, to the extent at least that they all know that if he actually carried around that limp foreign policy stick around the schoolyard he'd end up in the hospital and us with him.

The solution to Iran is to be nice and get them to like us? Really?

Smile at the bully. He wants to check if he left you any teeth.
 
283nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 15:18

Baldwin Clinton had a string of rape and harrassment across his entire life.

So maybe Clinton got off because he was actually intelligent enough to be President and Cain is an idiot?

Have you seen the interview when he was asked about Libya intervention policy?


link

Lets forget the infidelity questions, just watch this interview and ask if he is qualified to be President. Honestly I could do much better then this. The guy is an idiot Baldwin you are being set up for a fall.

 
284walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 15:30
Yeah, that video is scary. Cain said he was "collecting my thoughts." Oy. If that type of person was in charge, it'd be random leadership. There are minimum requirements to be President, and I think, as stated elsewhere, at least Romney and Gingrich and Huntsman know policy, facts, and have informed opinions. Bachman, Cain and Perry are ignorant, and represent a new bottom for candidates in the republican party (cf. Bill Maher last Saturday at the Beacon Theater).
 
285Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 15:33
His latest quote: "We need a leader, not a reader."
 
286Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 16:31
Do you really think any Tea Partier is gonna recoil when someone like you disparages their candidate?

How about someone like the founder of

Tea Party Nation?

The founder of the Tea Party Nation, Judson Phillips, once supported Herman Cain. Phillips thought Cain was the guy to take the Republican Tea Party to the next level.

“I was wrong about Herman Cain...I said originally that Cain could stay on message better than almost any other candidate. His 9-9-9 plan was all he would talk about and I attributed that to good messaging on his part. I was wrong.

Herman Cain needs to leave the race because he is not qualified to be President. The video is painful to watch. It is obvious Cain is in over his head and simply clueless."
- Judson Phillips

I never really understood why Cain, the former Federal Reserve executive, qualified as a
tea party candidate" anyway. You'd think Michelle Bachmann, head of the House tea party caucus, would have filled that roll. Ron Paul has the longest and most consistent record as a small government, limited spending politician among all the candidates.
It seems to me there really is no "tea party candidate" because there really isn't any consensus as to what the tea party is or what it stands for, having been hijacked early in its origins by the far right as soon as they saw it getting some traction.
Mitt Romney should qualify as a tea party candidate just as much as Cain; maybe he will now that Cain is toast.
 
287Boldwin
      ID: 4610421717
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 18:52
Fascinating. Do go on about how Mitt makes a great Tea Party candidate.

Not even in my wildest, most creative moment could I imagine a rationalization for that.
 
288sarge33rd
      ID: 2510121712
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 19:07
Stick a fork in it B. Cain is done. And whether or not YOU can "see it", is irrelevant. YOU, are not representative of anything but extremism.
 
289Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 19:25
Not even in my wildest, most creative moment could I imagine a rationalization for that.

Frankly, who cares what you think? We're all morons in your eyes, incapable of ever attaining your level of enlightened political supremacy.
 
290Boldwin
      ID: 4610421717
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 19:27
If you can make Mitt a Tea Party candidate, I'll call you Picaso and I'm dying to see it. But I didn't say I'd paint you right.
 
291sarge33rd
      ID: 2510121712
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 20:07
Picaso didnt exactly paint things "right"
 
292Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 22:10
He doesn't have to be a Tea Party candidate. He just has to be a GOP one.
 
293sarge33rd
      ID: 2510121712
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 22:11
Wonder when/if B is gonna realize, he has marginalized himself.
 
294DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 23:04
He'll never stop launching watermelons at his enemies.

like this, of course
 
295Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Nov 17, 2011, 23:08
There is no tea party candidate, just like there's no Occupy Wall Street and similiar Occupy movements. Most of the people who started the Occupy movements have been overwhelmed by bandwagon losers looking for a party in the park, just like the tea party lost it's way when bandwagoneers like Boldwin decided it was a perfect vehicle for his radical brand.

If there is a strong tea party movement, Michelle Bachmann wouldn't be floundering in single digits, while Cain, Perry and Gingrich take turns claiming the mantle.

So talk of tea party candidates and Occupy Wall Street movements begin to fall on deaf ears with the 99% until they are but a whisper.
 
296Boldwin
      ID: 111025184
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 06:32
If there is a strong tea party movement, Michelle Bachmann wouldn't be floundering in single digits

If there wasn't a strong tea party all Mitt's tremendous money and organizational advantage would have picked up steam and gained traction.

Bachmann's troubles are a charisma deficit and the media's persistent marginalization. I wonder how CBS plans on limiting her to less than two minutes debate time when and if the only one debating her is Obama?

 
297Boldwin
      ID: 111025184
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 09:07
If only the Tea Party Candidates were flawless silver tongued orators.

Then I'd be happy.
 
298Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 10:37
So the proof that the Tea Party is still strong is that a serial flop flopper isn't running away with the nomination?

You sure it isn't that Tea Party support has been halved? The view from inside the bubble is different, I'm sure, even if the sides are getting closer and closer.

Bachmann's problems are many, including her lack of any legislative record and her mistakes on the facts. This large Tea Party group apparently didn't get your memo.
 
299Boldwin
      ID: 111025184
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 11:19
Ooh, a CBS/NYT poll, so you know it's not a biased meaningless push poll.
 
300DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 11:22
Hey, at least it's not Rasmussen.
 
301Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 11:37
That's a bubble response if I ever heard one.

Today's (smaller) Tea Party: Sneering at the Facts While We Self-marginalize Ourselves.
 
302Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 11:55
Cain requests Secret Service protection. To protect him from the Press.
 
303sarge33rd
      ID: 010232811
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 23:31
Cain denies allegation of 13 yr affair

Cain's attorney, Lin Wood, dismissed the comparison between White and Bialek in a statement released to Fox 5 Atlanta on Monday, but did not deny the affair took place.

"This is not an accusation of harassment in the workplace — this is not an accusation of an assault — which are subject matters of legitimate inquiry to a political candidate," Wood said. "Rather, this appears to be an accusation of private, alleged consensual conduct between adults — a subject matter which is not a proper subject of inquiry by the media or the public. No individual, whether a private citizen, a candidate for public office or a public official, should be questioned about his or her private sexual life. The public's right to know and the media's right to report has boundaries, and most certainly those boundaries end outside of one's bedroom door."


If the Right TRULY feels this way, please explain the witch hunt for Pres Clinton, or the sudden demise of one Gary Hart?
 
304Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Nov 29, 2011, 00:20
If the Right TRULY feels this way, please explain the witch hunt for Pres Clinton, or the sudden demise of one Gary Hart?

or hell, the entire gay thing.
 
305Boldwin
      ID: 1510432817
      Tue, Nov 29, 2011, 08:06
If they've got text messages he's toast and we can all save some debate space. Maybe let Bachmann speak during the next debate even.
 
306Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Tue, Nov 29, 2011, 10:47
Bacchman is done. I told you she'd be a sideshow and a nonfactor six months ago.
 
307DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Nov 29, 2011, 10:55
Granting the wish in 305 would be the easiest way to ensure the truth of 306, of course.
 
308Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 29, 2011, 11:02
Ron Paul got less time than Bachmann at that debate, and his support dwarfs hers.
 
309boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Nov 29, 2011, 12:03
That is because the right and left can agree they don't like Ron Paul or his ideas.
 
310Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, Nov 29, 2011, 12:19
Bachmann has also been among the most heavily and favorably covered by the rightist media. She entered the race as one of the most recognizable candidates thanks to several years of free publicity and regular character endorsements from Gretchen Carlson, Glen Beck and others, not to mention positioning herself as champion of the Tea party movement. Yet her turn as the flash in the not-Romney pan was probably briefest and least bright among all the not-Romneys who got a chance.
 
311nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Tue, Nov 29, 2011, 13:03

Yet her turn as the flash in the not-Romney pan was probably briefest and least bright among all the not-Romneys who got a chance.

I think that happened around the time people actually heard her speak.

 
312Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Nov 29, 2011, 13:21
Like Palin: The more she spoke, the less people liked her.

Looks like Cain might be considering dropping out.
 
313nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 18:18


Although I am completely unimpressed with Cain, it just sickens me that an affair if true is news, or has any bearing on a persons ability to be President, unless like Newt he has gone after another politician for the same act.

Who is going to run if we are just going to crucify people for every skeleton in their closet.

Baldwin: If they've got text messages he's toast and we can all save some debate space.

Uh why?

 
314sarge33rd
      ID: 510433010
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 18:42
American, puritanical, superiority NC. Its the inflated sense of self, that comes with "exceptionalism".
 
315Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 18:43
The left supported Clinton despite Gennifer Flowers. It was the right that took issue, so at least they're consistant.

Of course seeing Cain's support flow to Gingrich, who's own marital affair during the Clinton impeachment process made the family values positions he postured all that time a laughable hypocrisy.

So I guess consistancy with family values issues has a statute of limitations on the political right.
 
316Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 19:06
For one thing Newt wasn't posing as a minister of god, nor was his a 14 year affair.

Cain has the misfortune of running for the nomination of the party whose base actually values promises and principles and upholding oaths like 'I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.'

So we know for sure it isn't the democrat party.

If I were Newt I wouldn't get caught again out in the parking lot getting serviced by someone other than his wife. He's getting a provisional pass after twenty years. He's not getting a perpetual get out of jail card.

McCain can just forget another run as well after co-writing the citizen detainee portion of the current Defense appropriation bill.
 
317Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 19:08
And I asked for any sign of impropriety any other time in his life other than a brief spate of copy-cat suits. And I got it.
 
318sarge33rd
      ID: 510433010
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 19:17
I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.'

The GOP, has done more in the past 10 years to undermine Constitutional Law, than one could have otherwise imagined.
 
319Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 19:19
OMG I just saw Seinfeld kiss Jenine Garafalo. He's right out as well.
 
320Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 20:27
nor was his a 14 year affair

Do you mean the affair he had with Marianne Ginther while married to his first wife, Jackie Battley which led to him disussing divorce conditions with Battley while she lay in a hospital bed being treated for cancer?

Or the affair he had with Callista Bisek while married to Ginther?
 
321Boldwin
      ID: 361012916
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 21:11
He hasn't had to wander in the wilderness for 20 years for nothin'.
 
322Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 21:56
"I'm going to be really direct, OK? I was charging $60,000 a speech. And the number of speeches was going up, not down. Normally, celebrities leave and they gradually sell fewer speeches every year. We were selling more."
Some wilderness.
 
323Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 02:16
AC points out that we still haven't seen the texts or heard any backup to the 'mistress's word.

Hard to believe she would claim to have texts if they weren't incriminating, but we haven't had it confirmed.

To be fair.
 
324sarge33rd
      ID: 510433010
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 02:32
But, we have an Independent prosecutors findings re Newt, but you say that is meaningless. I mean,a to be fair, is there ANY evidence you would believe?
 
325Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 02:38
In your struggle to read #323 do you remember running across the word 'texts'?
 
326Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 04:07
Ha! Using AC as some kind of proof gives you the kind of non-proof you deserve.

I see she never mentions the fact that Cain gave this woman money (which he's admitted to doing).

You are pretty desperate to back this guy up, Boldwin. You need to ask yourself why you are unwilling to let Cain defend himself. After all, you haven't a clue as to the truth of these many allegations.
 
327Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 09:17
In your struggle to read #323 do you remember running across the word 'texts'?

to be fair, his view of the post was probably obscured by the giant ass standing in the way with post 325.
 
328Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 14:01
He's just sayin':

 
329Boldwin
      ID: 20111211
      Thu, Dec 01, 2011, 23:32
PD

It is really hard to believe I have to tell you to learn to read. Perhaps we will be charitable and chalk this up to just general trouble keeping everyone's positions straight.

I said Cain was toast way back in #305.

In #317 I said; And I asked for any sign of impropriety any other time in his life other than a brief spate of copy-cat suits. And I got it.

I didn't use AC as proof of Cain's innocence. I used her reminder that to be fair we still are waiting for the other shoe to drop, when the contents of the e-mails/texts are revealed.

The only place I am still spinning madly in defense of Cain is in your mind.
 
330Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 16:34
just when you think it can't get any more entertaining...



"Women For Cain" is an online national fellowship of women dedicated to helping elect Herman Cain as the next President of the United States.

Mr. Cain has been a strong advocate for women throughout his lifetime, defending and promoting the issues of quality health care, family, education, equality in the workplace and many other concerns so important to American women.
 
331Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 17:33
#329: You are doing more than waiting for the other shoe to drop. While you are waiting, you fill the time by approvingly posting a link to a hit piece on Cain's accusers.

You seemingly don't know the difference between believing the guy is toast as a presidential candidate and slamming the many women who accuse him of sexual inappropriateness as, collectively, charlatans.
 
332sarge33rd
      ID: 101112311
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 13:51
Cain suspends his campaign

gee, what a shock
 
333Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 14:11
I heart the Onion
 
334Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Dec 03, 2011, 16:35
and, not from the Onion, is the fact Cain quoted Pokemon in his speech...and it's not the first time he's done that. amazing.
 
335Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 21:36
Just read that Cain endorsed Gingrich in West Palm Beach. Grabbing his last moment in the spotlight, perhaps. I doubt any of his former supporters were still awaiting his endorsement to make a choice at this point.