| Posted by: Perm Dude
- [3210201915] Tue, Nov 22, 2011, 17:49
Surprised the probable nominee doesn't already have his own thread.
The latest from Camp Mitt is that it is OK to imply that Obama's quote of someone else is Obama's own words ("He did say the words. That’s his voice." which is from Camp College Freshman Late Night Dorm Discussion, I think.)
In reply, Think Progress put together a short collection of Romney quotes using this standard. |
| 1 | Boldwin
ID: 35108223 Tue, Nov 22, 2011, 18:40
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That's because there is no Real Mitt Romney.
Zero core values and principles.
He just wants to be the engineer on the train. Any train.
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| 2 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Nov 22, 2011, 18:41
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True, dat, B.
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| 6 | Boldwin
ID: 4111685 Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 11:04
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See, I don't think you need to prohibit people from assigning benefits to whoever you want, in order to defend marriage. I also don't think you even need civil unions to allow for assigning benefits in a way that gays would be comfortable with.
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| 7 | sarge33rd
ID: 411131315 Tue, Dec 13, 2011, 20:16
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I also don't think you even need civil unions to allow for assigning benefits in a way that gays would be comfortable with.
You're right there. Just need to allow them to marry, like any other adult couple.
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| 8 | sarge33rd
ID: 411131315 Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 01:35
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soooooooooooooo with Christine O'Donnell (the TP darling), endorsing Romney.........
what does THAT mean?
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| 9 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 08:37
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what does THAT mean?
It means what I was trying to explain yesterday in the Newt Gingrich thread. There is no "the Tea Party." It's just become a generic term for the far right wing of the GOP. That should be obvious by Boldwin's claim that Ron Paul's consideration as a Tea Party candidate is ridiculous, even though the very origins of Tea Party ideology is based on the libertarian and limited government concepts that Paul has consistently promoted for decades. When Ron Paul is not considered representative of the Tea Party, but Christine O'Donnell is, the term Tea Party is rendered irrelevant. Now that O'Donnell has endorsed Romney, her Tea Party credentials will be morphed into RINO credentials, since it's important to try and put politicians into a little box that makes lazy analysis a virtue.
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| 10 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 12:11
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Evangelicals still torn about Romney
Will they sit out, if Romney gets the nod? This is a very good point:
Polk County GOP Co-Chair Dave Funk believes Romney can defeat Barack Obama in the general election, but the Republican Party as a whole would be better off with another candidate. “The thing with Romney is, we don’t get coattails,” Funk said. “We don’t get the Senate with Romney at the top of the ticket. He’s able to grab enough independents and Democrat to beat Obama. However, we don’t turn out three million evangelicals to vote in every school board and local election.”
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| 11 | sarge33rd
ID: 3411261412 Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 13:26
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from your link PDL
Romney is often viewed as the most “electable” among the GOP candidates, but some members of the focus group strongly disagree with that narrative. They believe Romney’s religion will eventually cost him votes.
So, these Republicans admit their party is filled with religious snobs and possessed of a "holier than thou" attitude?
A sentiment, which needs IMHO, to be fully circulated so as to expose todays GOP for what it is.
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| 12 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 14:11
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Sarge, it's just part of the vast Islamomormon caliphate conspiracy to keep the oppressed Christians down.
Or something.
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| 14 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 12:17
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Ok, Christine O'Donnell, a loser media whore with a following in single digits, endorsing Romney isn't any kind of sudden Tea Party swing to his camp.
Nikki Haley's endorsement is another story altogether.
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| 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 12:29
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They are merely reacting to the situation forced upon them by Establishment RINO's and the MSM, PV. C'mon!
Action outliers can always be blamed on your political opponents.
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| 16 | Boldwin
ID: 321121173 Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 04:21
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Just a careerist who's gambling the republican campaign finance gravy train lasts longer than the Tea Party.
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| 18 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 01:15
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Jim the Realtor making sure we understand Mitt's a man of the peeps. Knows our problems.
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| 19 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 06:06
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My understanding is that Mitt actually knows how many houses he owns.
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| 20 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 09:10
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Mitt Romney’s Top Campaign Contributors:
Goldman Sachs $367,200 Credit Suisse Group $203,750 Morgan Stanley $199,800 HIG Capital $186,500 Barclays $157,750 Kirkland & Ellis $132,100 Bank of America $126,500 PriceWaterhouseCoopers $118,250 EMC Corp $117,300 JPMorgan Chase & Co $112,250 The Villages $97,500 Vivint Inc $80,750 Marriott International $79,837 Sullivan & Cromwell $79,250 Bain Capital $74,500 UBS AG $73,750 Wells Fargo $61,500 Blackstone Group $59,800 Citigroup Inc $57,050 Bain & Co $52,500
.......... Owebama or Romney, either way the banksters win.
link
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| 22 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 09:39
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From B7's link, here are Ron Paul's biggest contributors:
US Army $24,503 US Air Force $23,335 US Navy $17,432 Mason Capital Management $14,000 Microsoft Corp $13,398 Boeing Co $10,620 Google Inc $10,390 Overland Sheepskin $10,350 IBM Corp $8,294 US Government $7,756 DUNN Capital Management $7,500 Corriente Advisors $7,500 Greenstreet Co $7,500 Northrop Grumman $7,272 Lockheed Martin $7,208 Intel Corp $6,855 US Dept of Defense $6,524 United Technologies $6,316 Federal Express Corp $6,255
Paul's critics constantly tell us that he is an isolationist with dangerous positions concerning dramatically reducing our military presence around the world. Yet, military entities and major defense contractors make up the bulk of his financial support. How is it that branches of the military, as well as the US government and US Dept of Defense are allowed to contribute to a political campaign?
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| 23 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 12:12
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How is it that branches of the military, as well as the US government and US Dept of Defense are allowed to contribute to a political campaign?
From the link:This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2012 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate , rather the money came from the organizations' PACs, their individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.
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| 24 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 12:40
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Having many members of my family as active military, I know for a fact that the best way to direct huge numbers of their donations to Barack Obama is to nominate someone like Santorum or Allen West.
Truth is, most of them have grudgingly come around on Barack Obama. Most were prepared to be hating on the guy. But many have come to believe he actually has their best interests at heart, and no soldier (or soldier's family) is going to ignore the fact that he is bringing so many of them home and out of harm's way.
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| 25 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 12:58
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Why do we continually have these descriptions of Allen West as a presidential candidate? West is not now, nor has he ever been a presidential candidate.
He is now saying that if asked to be the VP candidate, he would step up to the plate.
Highly doubtful. If the GOP nominee wants a Floridian as the VP candidate, Marco Rubio is far and away the #1 choice.
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| 26 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 19:01
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Tell it to the 5 million websites discussing him for president in 2012.
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| 27 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 19:06
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People have started to learn some disturbing facts about likely Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney: He once worked for Bain Capital — which is what’s known as a private-sector business. Harmless as the term sounds, it’s much scarier once you understand how such outfits operate.
A private-sector business doesn’t even pretend to make decisions based on how to best help people or what creates the most jobs or even on what will most equally distribute income. It makes decisions based only on what creates a profit.
Yes, it’s frightening to think that something so mercenary even exists — even worse that someone who worked for something like that could actually become president. Of course, the only people who should lead our country and manage our economy are those who remain unsullied by the private sector’s for-profit mentality: career politicians.
Look at President Obama. His first job was “community organizer.” Do you think that job made a profit for anybody? No way. Did it provide goods or services a consumer might want to pay for? No.
The purpose of a community organizer is . . . well, I’m still kind of vague on the specifics, but I’m pretty sure it’s about helping people. People who live in a community — a disorganized one.
The point is, while Obama was doing this, Romney was rubbing his hands together like Gollum, exclaiming, “Precious, precious money!” And to get that money, he worked hard to trim costs and do whatever else he could to make a business successful. If elected president, he might look on the economy with cold, cynical eyes that judge everything by how profitable it is — as opposed to Obama, who looks at the economy and says, “Yay, look at all this money I can take to help people!”
Also, Romney had to answer to investors — people who expected a return on their money. This made him very hesitant to spend money. That’s a completely different perspective from that of a career politician, who’s only ever spent the money of taxpayers — people who long ago learned never to expect any sort of return on their investment. --- In fact, if Obama were put in charge of a business and pressured to make it profitable, he’d just stare back at us in confusion. He might even start crying. That’s how horrific he’d find that scenario. And it’s that innocence — that complete lack of basic economic knowledge — that he brings to leading our nation.
If we allowed Romney to bring his business sense to office, it would be horrific. He’d start slashing the government until it was lean and efficient and everything fit within the budget. What a cold and heartless way to look at government.
That won’t happen with Obama. There’s no chance he’ll let budgets or math be more important than helping people, because he’s never been corrupted by the knowledge of those concepts. He knows only two things: helping people and spending tax dollars. Any other knowledge would just slow him down.
- Frank J. Fleming, NY Post op-ed
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| 28 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 19:17
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Again: Democrats, and Obama in particular, would absolutely love it if Romney won the nomination and ran on his Bain experience. Please, please please do that. The Dems will win back the House if the GOP decided to go all 80's venture capital firm on us.
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| 29 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 20:00
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Oh, then you got your wish. It will be all about restructuring a bankrupt inefficient bloated institution.
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| 30 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 20:01
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Tell it to the 5 million websites discussing him for president in 2012.
Hey 5 million web sites discussing Allen West running for president in 2012. He isn't. Neither is Palin, Christie, Jindal or Jeb Bush, although each of them would have a better chance at being the nominee than West.
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| 31 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 00:08
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Romney says "I pay around 15% in Fed Income Tax"
MYRTLE BEACH, South Carolina (Reuters) - Republican Mitt Romney acknowledged Tuesday that his income tax rate is "probably closer to 15 percent than anything," suggesting that one of the wealthiest people to ever run for U.S. president pays a much lower rate than most Americans.
Under the Republican banner, the rich get richer, and the poor get to stay that way. Just look, at what the "capitalism free of restraint", did to the middle class from 2000 to 2008.
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| 32 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 13:00
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But not lower than John Kerry's 12% which was perfectly A OK.
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| 33 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 13:11
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When or where, did I ever say such a thing was "A OK"?
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| 34 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 13:33
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Almost all of Romney's income is from investments, not salary. How are we supposed to encourage people to invest in this nation's business, be it equities, commodities, treasuries or munis? It's not like you get write off the losses when markets sour.
People act like only the uber-wealthy benefit from investing in the markets, ignoring that million of blue collar Americans rely on pension funds invested in financial markets as well as millions of seniors who depend on their investments to augment their social security payments.
Do we really want people to stash their cash under their mattresses or buy gold to put in a safety deposit box, or do we want to encourage people to invest in American companies and communities without having the government take a huge chunk of any profits that might be realized?
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| 35 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 13:51
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That is a feeble argument, PV. Investment for retirement and investment as a means of generating personal income are two different things and should be taxed accordingly. Further, we have enjoyed periods of wonderful growth with a higher capital gains tax than we have now. Did people stuff their cash under their mattresses in the 1980's and 90's? Of course not. The idea that the capital gains tax is a huge deterrent to investment is not borne out by much evidence.
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| 36 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 13:56
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Other probvlem PV, that part of his income which was not investment generated? STILL, gets taxed at the lower 15% rate, because of a loop hole available only to a select few extxremely wealthy people.
Why should "Billy", who inherits a vast fortune, leaves it sit in the stock market and drinks all week long at this or that super party; pay a lower tax rate than "Joe", who punches the clock and puts in 50 hrs/wk actually DOING something?
You see, we can both come uop with ludicrous claims, questions and allegations. Point is, income, is income is income. Tax it, period. This nation did wonderfully economically, through the 1950s. Lets go back to THOSE tax laws shall we?
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| 37 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 14:03
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part of his income which was not investment generated? STILL, gets taxed at the lower 15% rate, because of a loop hole available only to a select few extxremely wealthy people.
How do we know that since we haven't seen his returns?
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| 38 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 14:05
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read the link I posted in 31
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| 39 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 14:05
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He said it was at 15%. I would think that if it was greater he would have said so.
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| 40 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 14:07
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Romney's returns also might not spell out how much he benefits from a tax break used by private equity executives called the carried interest loophole.
This rule allows private equity and hedge fund managers to pay the 15 percent capital gains tax rate, rather than the top income tax rate, on a large portion of their earnings.
A tax break, available ONLY to "private equity and hedge fund managers". Please, justify that.
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| 41 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 14:13
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Where does most of that investment money go? Executives are motivated to cater to shareholders before the product or service, which doesn't always share the priority of the corporation's long-term viability. CEOs don't seem to usually plan on sticking around more than a few years. The security of it's non-executive employees is not even a factor in their equation. The powers that be who formerly controlled my personal career path made this abundantly clear to me and my former coworkers several years ago.
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| 42 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 20:44
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Razor
Does your employer know you think the capital gains tax is too low? And that you are publicly advocating that view?
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| 43 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 20:52
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Most people of honesty, consider the cap gains tx rate, to be too low. Even the wealthy repubs I know personally, think it is too low. But they are not obligated to pay a higher rate, so they dont.
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| 44 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 10:01
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Romney's returns also might not spell out how much he benefits from a tax break used by private equity executives called the carried interest loophole
Then close the loophole. I am, however, opposed to raising the tax on dividends and capital gains beyond the current 15%, for the reasons I expressed earlier. 1)Raising the tax affects not just the 1%, but the millions of Americans who depend on investment income(mostly retired)to meet their monthly nut. Many of these people are just now recovering from the severe losses sustained in the 2008 crash. Now is not the time to penalize them in response to a national fever to punish anything Wall Street related.
2)Look at the market performance in 2011. The Dow and S&P were basically flat for the year. In many cases, that means the only gains realized were from stocks that paid dividends, which average around 3%. Let's say a retiree has a $100,000 investment paying 3 grand almost entirely from dividends. After 15%, that 3 grand just became $450 lighter. And we want to raise that because we're upset with the 1%? The burden is misplaced.
3) It's distorted to point to higher rates in the 80s and 90s as evidence that current rates should be higher. It used to be that one could invest in money markets, treasuries, CDs or even an interest-bearing savings account and actually get a return. Now, you can't even get 1% on most non-risk savings vehicles. It's great that the Fed has kept interest rates so low, but the effect is that savings rates are invisible. For the sake of easy math, let's say you're getting a 1% return on a $100,000 money market account, yielding a grand a year. After 15% it's $850. And this is a good time to raise the capital gains tax?
We can't use Romney, or Buffet, or any other 1 percenter as a template. We have to use the average American investor, who, in many cases, is a middle class worker or retiree just trying to make ends meet. Raise the tax on earnings of the wealthy, but not by raising the 15% on capital gains and dividends that would affect a huge percentage of the population who are not wealthy.
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| 45 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 10:23
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Of course, if you simply taxed capital gains at the same income tax rate as everything else, you would be taxing the retirees who depend on dividend income to make ends meet at... wait for it... 15% (or less!), and still tax others at the same (higher) rate. Problem solved.
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| 46 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 10:50
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Glenn Reynolds [instapundit] [and references] nails this whole offshore meme so comprehensibly and masterfully I refuse to edit it down. Read the whole thing and learn all about why hedge funds gravitate to the Caymans.
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| 47 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 11:07
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If investment income is being used as regular income, then it should be taxed as regular income.
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| 48 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 11:18
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Can you say 'capital flight'? Sure.
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| 49 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 12:16
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The problem with many of the arguments on the Right is that they do, in fact, say it. But saying so with great fervor doesn't make it true.
The whole "if you don't keep letting me get richer, I'm taking my ball and going home" argument is just stupidly tiresome at this point.
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| 50 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 12:33
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Having your enemies tell you "just stand still while I beat you to a pulp" gets tiresome. Just from the stupidity of it. You really think there will be no unintended consequences from 'eating the rich'?
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| 51 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 12:39
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Case in point.
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| 52 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 10:29
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How big is it really?We're not sure if facts will matter in this cacophony, but someone should at least try to introduce a little reality into the debate, especially since Mr. Romney seems so unprepared to make the case.
Start with the fact that, like Warren Buffett, Mr. Romney said he makes most of his money from investments, not wages or salary. Thus his income is really taxed twice: once at the corporate tax rate of 35%, then again at a 15% tax rate when it is passed through to him as dividends or via capital gains from the sale of stock.
All income from businesses is eventually passed through to the owners, so to ignore business taxes creates a statistical illusion that makes it appear that the rich pay less than they really do. By this logic, if the corporate tax rate were raised to, say, 60% from today's 35% and the dividend and capital gains tax were cut to zero, it would appear that business owners were getting away with paying no federal tax at all. - WSJ 
They didn't tell you the rest of the story.
So what is Warren Buffet getting out of lying by omission? Buying some favoritism maybe.
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| 53 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 10:35
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Thus his income is really taxed twice: once at the corporate tax rate of 35%, then again at a 15% tax rate when it is passed through to him as dividends or via capital gains from the sale of stock.
Wow--talk about missing the point. Should we give Romney credit as well for the money that was taxed by the construction worker when he earned it, then went to Subway for a sandwich (who passed it to their owners, Bain)?
The point behind the criticism of Romney is what rate he pays for his income. Which is a rate far less than others--even others working at the same company, who also had their pay previously taxed, according to the WSJ's bizarre apology for lower rates for the wealthy.
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| 54 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 10:37
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Would love to see Bain's tax returns during the time Romney was there. If anyone thinks they were paying 35% they are naive.
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| 55 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 20:35
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So the rich guts cash investment, taxed at 15%, is of greater value than the laborers time investment, during which goods/services are actually produced?
A rose, is a rose, is a rose; and income is income is income.
It's income? Net positive? It should not be taxed at a favorable rate because you do not work to generate the income, than is the income derived via producing goods/services.
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| 57 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 16:00
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I've been waiting, in vain, for the GOP to start questioning Romney's citizenship. After all, his father gained Mexican citizenship by being born there.
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| 58 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 16:03
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Or how they scrimped and saved through Harvard law ... By selling stock they were given by his dad.
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| 59 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Jan 25, 2012, 16:10
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Re: 56 that is because some of the Romney's came over illegally.
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| 62 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 10:11
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PV44-
Then close the loophole. I am, however, opposed to raising the tax on dividends and capital gains beyond the current 15%, for the reasons I expressed earlier. 1)Raising the tax affects not just the 1%, but the millions of Americans who depend on investment income(mostly retired)to meet their monthly nut. Many of these people are just now recovering from the severe losses sustained in the 2008 crash. Now is not the time to penalize them in response to a national fever to punish anything Wall Street related.
This is who is affected by a hike in capital gains:
 Ezra Klein
I own stock, but almost never pay that 15% on anything more than a paltry percentage of my income. The reason is that almost all my investment money is either in a Roth IRA, which is post-tax income and won't be subjected to tax upon withdrawal, no matter how well I do in the market, and regular IRAs, which are taxed as normal income upon withdrawal. I think most retirees are in the same boat.
The less we tax the far right in the above graph, the more those in the rest of the graph have to be taxed to make up for the lack of tax collected on capital gains. Either that or we cut services (education and healthcare, mainly) or we go further into debt.
PV - this is very close to a zero-sum game. If the rich don't pay higher taxes, the rest of us do, or the rest of us suffer the consequences. Those consequences are, most glaringly, under-funded K-12 and higher education (leading to massive debt loads from student loans), and an erosion of the social safety net.
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| 64 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 11:23
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I suspect that part of the reason the 1% bar is so high is the result of a loophole that needs closing. Romney, for instance, was paid a symbolic $1 a year salary at Bain, making millions a year entirely on stock options. It's common practice for CEOs and top corporate management to keep their salaries low and make their real income in stock options. This is absurd, and has nothing to do with investing and realizing gains/losses.
I suspect another reason the graph is so skewed is that investment in stocks and bonds has been and continues to be abandoned as a legitimate way to succeed financially by a huge contingency of this country's citizens, especially the middle class. This is evidenced by the alarmingly low rate of people who reach their retirement years with out a penny to live on other than a meager SS check. Pensions and retirement accounts are becoming more and more scarce, especially as the consumer-driven baby boomers reach their 60s. Young people today are inundated with Occupy Wall Street, Occupy Salt Lake, Seattle, Oakland, Boston, etc. messages which demonize not just the intended targets, but the basic concept of equities investment.
If anything, we should be encouraging participation in financial markets, along with reform that prohibits the 1% from making a mockery of a level playing field.
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| 65 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 11:35
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The long game, however, isn't looking as good for Romney
Not exactly looking good for Newt either. Besides trying to sidestep making 25 grand a month as a "historian" for FM, the latest condemnation of his management style as speaker comes from right wing hero and martyr, Tom DeLay.
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| 66 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 12:31
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Pensions and retirement accounts are becoming more and more scarce...
Theyt are becoming more and more scarce, because many in the 45-55 age group, had to withdraw all their monies to pay current expoenses, not lose their home perhaps, when they lost their jobs. Now, 365 people show up to apply for 3 posted hiring positions, and age discrimination is very much alive and well. Just try and prove it, when there were 3 hires and 362 non-hires.
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| 67 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 12:31
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I think you need to realize here that the perfect is the enemy of the good. The lawyers and accountants of he rich are always going to find sneaky ways to not pay taxes. Just get what you can in the most-straightforward way possible, push for stopping the gutting of regation and encorcement, and hope their are still people in those roles who have teeth and ethics.
I agree we should encourage investment among the general populace. I dont think demonization of wall street is the reason for any decline, if any. I think it's more the lack of positive returns for the last 12 years as well as the volatility. Most people don't have the stomach for the kind of volatility we have seeing - particularly inexplicable volatility like the flash-crash.
Personally I think we put a tax on each transaction, but that seems to be a political non-starter.
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| 68 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 12:48
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Investments would not dry up, if Cap Gaions were taxed as regular income. That is evidenced, by the fact that invested capital didnt geometrically leap, when Cap Gains were reduced. Simple, SIMPLE, solution. Tax Cap Gains Income, the exact same way as "earned" income. Solved.
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| 69 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 15:39
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Mankiw makes some sense.
I don't often agree with mankiw, and I'd have to see how progressive his "progressive consumption tax" turned out to be, but I like these 4 ideas for tax reform very much. Particularly jacking the gas tax up and eliminating the mortgage deduction.
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| 70 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 16:05
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If Mankiw is advising Romney and any of these ideas are floated during the election Obama couldn't lose this election.
Increasing gas prices by $1.50/gallon would result in a net benefit to the country? Unless that was phased in over several years I see it being a huge hit to the middle class.
Eliminating the mortgage exemption? I can understand the idea and possibly support the idea, unless it is coupled with a tax decrease that is another huge blow to the middle class. A more reasonable alternative IMO would be to lower the amount that can be claimed and place more restrictive limits on AGI and claiming some of deductions.
And unless a
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| 71 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 16:06
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Frick's been eliminated!
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| 72 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 16:27
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Heh...
God is Dead. -Nietche
Nietche is dead. -God
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| 73 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 16:38
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I didn't actually notice that Mankiw was advising Romney. Double relevant post for this thread!
And also another boost for Obama, as I agree- most of these are political suicide, unless combined with a much broader overhaul. That they are the right thing to do doesn't mean they will be proposed by a Pol. In fact, usually the opposite.
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| 74 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jan 26, 2012, 17:07
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The lawyers and accountants of he rich are always going to find sneaky ways to not pay taxes. Just get what you can in the most-straightforward way possible, push for stopping the gutting of regation and encorcement, and hope their are still people in those roles who have teeth and ethics.
I think you have half right here and maybe even more right in 69, the tax law is too complicated the rich would not be able to hide there money if the law was simpler and the laws were simpler there would be less need regulation and enforcement because it would be clear who what cheating and who wasn't. the truth is that most people would be willing to pay more taxes if it was easier even the rich, especially the rich all the money they are paying lawyers and accounts could just go taxes.
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| 75 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 16:53
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I, for one, welcome the candor. Even if it was accidental.
I'm not kidding. I think the GOP these days don't care a hoot about the government helping the very poor. They believe government should get out of the way of people (or groups of people, or churches, or companies) to do it all themselves.
They seem very unconfident in their own ideas, however.
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| 76 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 17:03
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Romney: "We are the only people who put our hand over our hearts for the national anthem." Ooops.
Next up: "Americans are the only humans on the planet!"
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| 77 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 17:44
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A West has already said every Liberal should leave the US. So apparently in his small mind, only rightwingnuts have the right to vote. (or any other rights outlined in our BoR)
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| 79 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 00:13
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For our nation's sake, I can only hope this was staged.
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| 81 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 01:50
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pretty well done, but look REALLY close at the "O" in the pic above. You can see a ghost outline of the "M".
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| 83 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 15:14
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Who the hell *IS*, "the real" Mitt Romney?
The Gov who asked for earmarks, or the candidate who says he wants them banned?
The Gov who said it was vital to protect a womans right to choose, or the cabdidate who says Roe-v-Wade should be overturned?
The Gov, who passed (what the GOP calls) "Romney-Care", or the candidate who says "Obama-Care" (the same damn thing), is "over reaching"?
Just exactly, who the sam hell IS; Mitt Romney?
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| 84 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 21:18
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Romney's CPAC 'tell'.
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| 85 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 22:12
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The last two sentences in that otherwise decent piece are odd:
The CPAC crowd was obviously receptive to Romney's message and his record. Why reach for more?
Maybe because the speech was written beforehand? Obviously (to my mind) his speech was a little defensive and reaching. Given the crowd that isn't a surprise. The the writer of that piece seemed to think the speech was being generated contemporaneously. Maybe the visceral reaction to TelePrompters has made them forget that speeches are written beforehand?
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| 86 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 22:32
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The phrase 'severe conservative' could never occur to a conservative, before, after or during. Only to someone protesting too much that yes he really was conservative.
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| 87 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 22:33
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Oh I dunno B. I think anyone you would consider conservative, I'd consider pretty damn severe.
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| 88 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 22:35
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Irrelevant.
Every conservative in the room heard the false note.
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| 89 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 22:43
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Every conservative in the room heard the false note.
Whatever gave you the idea you speak for every conservative?
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| 90 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 22:45
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What gave every liberal on these boards who trumpeted the virtues of McCain and Romney that idea?
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| 91 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 22:47
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Changing the subject by answering a question with a question is infantile, as is thinking you speak for every conservative.
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| 93 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 07:26
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Remember to Boldwin, probably 90% of registered Republicans are RINOs. That doesn't even begin to describe moderates who lean to the right who are most likely labeled pink-commie liberals.
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| 100 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 20:32
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Really Mitt? You remember that? pssst, it was 9 months before you were born
Mitch Potter of the Toronto Star on Monday questioned a tale that the former Massachusetts governor recently told to a Tea Party crowd of attending the Golden Jubilee. Romney told the gathering in Milford, Mich., he was "probably 4 or something" at the time of the jubilee, which attracted 750,000 people to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the American automobile. There was just one problem.
"The Golden Jubilee described so vividly by Romney was indeed an epic moment in automotive lore," Potter writes. "The parade included one of the last public appearances by an elderly Henry Ford. And it took place June 1, 1946 -- fully nine months before Romney was born."
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| 101 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Mon, Mar 05, 2012, 23:06
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talk about out of touch with reality
Mitt Romney may have more money than any other presidential candidate in the race, but his wife said today that she does not consider herself wealthy.
$1,750,000/MONTH gross over the past 24 months, but they arent wealthy. smdh
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| 103 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Fri, Mar 09, 2012, 15:45
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Wow. Romney says some really strange things. I can only imagine the firestorm if Obama had said the same thing. They already call him a socialist...
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| 104 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Fri, Mar 09, 2012, 16:30
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It's also the country where you can find 20,000 engineers trained to do your project and willing to be housed in what to us would be student housing or a barracks...
...and find them this week, available, and ready to work for peanuts.
Globalism is gonna be great from a power elite roundtable POV. Not so much from a worker's POV.
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| 105 | Mith
ID: 37838313 Fri, Mar 09, 2012, 19:28
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imagine the firestorm if Obama had said the same thing
In 2008 Obama was attacked quite harshly by the right for daring to praise the Chinese infrastructure development over the previous decade in comparison to to our stagnation in that area and calling it one of the reasons their economy had grown so rapidly.
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| 106 | Tree
ID: 502182120 Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 21:21
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didn't know whether to put this in the Mitt thread, or the Tea Farcey thread.
The Washington Times reports that FreedomWorks, a Washington-based group that has organized some of the largest tea party rallies in the country and has opposed Romney's candidacy from the beginning, has accepted a Romney candidacy and is prepared to support him.
Last year, FreedomWorks staged a counter rally against the presidential candidate when he addressed a tea party meeting in Concord, N.H. In a statement before the event, a spokesman for the organization said that Romney's record as governor of Massachusetts "represents everything the tea party stands against," and said his group was "standing on principle, not politics."
this deserves a big, giant LOL. and, a not surprising.
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| 108 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 23:21
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Without clicking the link, I assume the ephemeral nature of the Etch-A-Sketch medium is designed to symbolize Newt's ethics?
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| 110 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 01:41
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He doesn't think Romney can get an outright win in the first ballot at the convention.
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| 111 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 11:09
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That's his only hope. Santorum's, too.
He's wrong--Utah will put Romney up and that'll be that.
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| 112 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 11:27
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I don't know if Utah is all that. Everyone had always conceded him that.
If there is any justice and any intelligence that Etch-A-Sketch comment will be his undoing.
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| 113 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 11:40
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I've looked at the schedule and (this is just imo) but the Utah primary is the one in which Romney will get over the top. Some of this is discussed, with a link to the NYT delegate count, in the Santorum thread starting about #241.
People were excited that Santorum got Alabama (for instance) but he's not even on the ballot in DC which has more delegates.
The hard part for Newt and Santorum is that they are exactly right about Romney, and he continues to do exactly what they hope for (such as the Etch a Sketch comment) but they can't get any traction.
[That's because both Newt and Santorum, which both not-Romney, are far outside the mainstream to appeal to enough GOP voters outside the deep south. But that's just my opinion, too].
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| 114 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 12:35
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as per 106...the GOP will dutifully fall in line behind whomever wins the nomination. Just as the Dems did in 2008.
Truly B, you seem to have no conception of how BADLY, many of us wouldhave loved fo Newt or Santorum to win the GOP primary. While the GOP would faithfuloly fall into line behind either of them, the Independents and "Reagan Democrats" would never touch either of them, with a 100' pole.
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| 115 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 13:23
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| 116 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 15:38
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50/50 shot this is mostly forgotten within a week. The alternative is that it's his "I was before it before I was against it moment."
The silly thing is that everyone knows the staffer was right: candidates do drift to the extremes during primaries and come back to the center during general elections. This is just a silly gotcha moment.
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| 117 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 17:54
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I think the gotcha moment is when he pulls out his big freakin' sterling silver commemorative backstabbin knife he's been keepin on his desk in plain sight and tells conservatives just how long and dark his night of the long knives is gonna be.
I wonder where in the convention they schedule that? Between the VP choice and the concluding speech perhaps.
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| 118 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 17:56
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If by "conservatives", you mean the other radical, fringe extremists like yourself...I hope it's right upfront in the opening moments. Set the tone you know.
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| 119 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 19:50
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He's got no knives because he doesn't have any real core.
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| 120 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 11:24
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Lack of core goes with lack of natural loyalties. Ergo what your back around him.
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| 121 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Apr 03, 2012, 09:54
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Jon Stewart makes some fun out of the recent full throated Romney endorsements:
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| 122 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Tue, Apr 03, 2012, 10:38
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{correct#120) Watch, not what.
I have noticed that Romney has recently got much much much better at laying out the conservative message and logic. Much better than McCain ever could because McCain didn't even think he should.
I'd like to believe he is doing such a good job he could even convince himself, but at least the conservative crowd will hear what they want for a change.
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| 123 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Apr 03, 2012, 10:45
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As the more conservative handlers start gravitating his way, I suspect he's going to be better coached as well.
The problem will be determining, after the primary, how "conservative" his message will have to be.
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| 124 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Tue, Apr 03, 2012, 12:19
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I thought former Pres Clinton said it well yesterday, during a CNN interview (I think it was CNN anyway). He said relatiung his '92 run vs the incumbent Pres Bush and Romneys here vs the incumbent Pres Obama; that the difference was that his (Clinton's) message did not have to change between the primary and the general elections. If Romney tries to run in the general as a "severe conservative", he will lose just like McCain did.
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| 125 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 01:14
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Romney goes 76-0 tonight with the three wins in Wisconsin, DC, and Maryland. Santorum *might* win one or two before the nigh is out, but Romney won another 5% of what he needs to win in just one night.
Word is that Santorum is back in PA stumping. Hopefully he stays in the rural areas. PA's primary is the 24th.
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| 126 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 02:22
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Sarge#124
McCain's signature move was to stick it to conservatives when talking to reporters. If Romney keeps on talking the conservative talk, he will be the anti-McCain, not following in his footsteps.
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| 127 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 02:39
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Anti-McCain or no, he keeps talking the far right talk, he's the "anti Anerican" candidate, will not close the gender gap, and will lose just as McCain did.
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| 128 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 06:20
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If by 'Anerican' you mean marxist.
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| 129 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 10:46
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If by 'Anerican' you mean marxist.
if by 'marxist' you mean "i have no clue what a marxist is. or a socialist. or a communist. but i use the terms interchangeably, because they are 'fear' words, and they work well on the ignorant who don't know any better."
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| 130 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 10:50
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no, he means "anti Christ" of course.
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| 131 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 11:01
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The only question left to answer is who Romney will pick as his VP nominee. I have to think the smart money is on Rubio.
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| 132 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 11:17
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That would be a good pick. The support of the GOP by Latinos has been falling. I think if Rubio can somehow pivot with Romney toward a more moderate immigration policy (and stand against some of the anti-immigrant legislation being put out there) they could win back some of those votes.
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| 133 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 11:26
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And it would put Florida in GOP hands. And it would excite the Tea Party crowd.
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| 134 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 14:13
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but it does nothing fo the gender gap and THAT, is what killed the GOP in 2008 and will again, in 2012.
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| 135 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 12:32
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They really have to get Ann Romney off the campaign trail:
Why should women be paid the same as men?
This is an argument from the 1970's. I don't think she understands that the Ledbetter Act was about a woman who was underpaid, for years, despite having even more experience than some of the better paid men in the same position.
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| 137 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 10:39
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Re 135: I think you have been had, PD.
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| 138 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 12:57
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A spoof?
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| 139 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 15:17
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seems so PD
snopes
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| 140 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 15:24
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Thanks.
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| 142 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Tue, May 01, 2012, 20:21
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eating their own, and yet they think we should put them in charge of us.
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| 143 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, May 03, 2012, 14:25
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An illustrated history of getting screwed by people like Mitt Romney.
Love that title!
This is why the wealthy have not only held their own, but increased their share of this country's wealth with the rest of us are holding our own (or worse).
The biggest hole in trickle-down economics is that the wealthy would have an incentive to actually allow the money to trickle down. They don't. And they haven't. So while we've blown a hole in our federal budget to continue to cut taxes for the wealthiest of us, the only real benefits are going to--the wealthy.
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| 144 | Tree
ID: 11456315 Thu, May 03, 2012, 17:01
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and now, the woman who just four months ago asked of Mitt Romney "He is the only governor in the history of the United States that has put into place socialized medicine in his state. And that's going to be our nominee to stand up against president Obama?" has endorsed the man.
more of the same old song and dance. Good luck, party of no.
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| 145 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Thu, May 03, 2012, 17:03
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I fear this race could be a hell of a lot closer than it should be. The GOP, will by and large fall dutifully in line, behind the man that a minority of them wanted to even nominate.
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| 146 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Fri, May 04, 2012, 08:25
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I thought at the beginning that Romney was the only Republican candidate that could actually give Obama a race. The main reason Romney can appeal to moderates. Santoroum wasn't going to get those votes for the same reason that Palin turned moderates off of McCain.
The hardcore of either side are either going to vote for their candidate or stay home. To give Obama a race Romney needs to do enough to get the extremeists to come out and vote, while at the same time trying to win over the moderates.
There are plenty of leftists who are upset with Obama for not doing more, going further and trying to compromise with Republicans, but they will do the same as the right. Either vote for Obama or just stay home.
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| 147 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, May 04, 2012, 11:00
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Re 143: Maybe you can explain something to me, just because my productivity goes up why should I get paid more. Productivity and effort are not the same thing. If I get two computer monitors my productivity goes up should my pay go up equally to productivity of the extra moniters. I guess my point is that graph represents the productivity increases caused may in creases in technology in work force and not actually increases in effort. Should you be paid more because a computer is doing your work for you?
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| 148 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Fri, May 04, 2012, 11:03
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is the company seeing increased profits? If so, then yes, worker pay should go up. are individual responsibilities increasing? If so, then yes, worker pay should go up. can we play an endless stream of "what if" questions? Probably, but to what point?
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| 149 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Fri, May 04, 2012, 11:18
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It is a complex issue that the graph, while a great talking point doesn't begin to offer any real analysis.
Are employers investing more into technology to get that increased productivity? Just another "what if"
The article is two data sets that the author put together because it showed a point they wanted to make. Correlation does not imply causation. But, I'm sure it will be a talking point for one side. You would slam the right for similar tactics, don't be a hypocrit.
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| 150 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, May 04, 2012, 11:32
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Maybe you can explain something to me, just because my productivity goes up why should I get paid more
You are asking: When I work harder and smarter, why should I be paid more? Really?
We are more productive partially because of technology, but remember that most of the new technology replaces old technology -- the cost is a wash.
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| 151 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Fri, May 04, 2012, 12:08
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Operating more sophisticated technology requires more sophisticated workers. I find it hard to believe that anyone would question why an increase in productivity should increase worker compensation, especially when are talking about long horizon productivity increases. And especially when the graph clearly illustrates a tight correlation in the first half and a non-existent correlation in the second half.
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| 152 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Fri, May 04, 2012, 12:35
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compounded by the fact that CEO comp has gone from 27 x the national avg, to 300 x that same avg. When the various affects of the past 35-45 years are looked at, it is clear why worker earnings NEED to increase,...now,...and dramatically.
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| 153 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, May 04, 2012, 14:34
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re 151, the graph corresponds perfectly with the invention of the microprocessor and the gap between two curves corresponds perfectly with increase power of microprocessor what you are actually looking at is not increase in human productivity as much as increase tool productivity. Now if you wish to go back to time before the microprocessor where wages went up evenly with productivity you are more than welcome too but I kind of doubt you are willing to make that trade.
This graph is actually repeated through out history when new technologies are introduced.
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| 154 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, May 04, 2012, 14:39
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Secondly if you look at buying power instead of wages you will see that line will almost match that of productivity and in the end that is what really matters.
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| 155 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Fri, May 04, 2012, 15:36
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The timeline is something I didn't bring up because the data may not have been available, but I wouldn't be surprised if you add another couple of decades the graph isn't as nice and neat.
And if I employ someone to mow yards and I buy a new mower with a deck that is twice as wide. I should immediately double the employees wages since he is twice as productive. Is that the argument that you are making?
I think that wages should increase with productivity, but they aren't necessarily directly tied.
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| 156 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Fri, May 04, 2012, 22:11
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More to the point we have seen in the past 3 decades Frick, if you used to employ 2 people to maintain your 5 acre spread, and let go of 1 expecting the 1 to do the work....yes, you damn well need to pay the one more than you used to. Trouble is, todays employers have done just that, w/o paying the labor force more.
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| 157 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, May 04, 2012, 22:16
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And if I employ someone to mow yards and I buy a new mower with a deck that is twice as wide.
More to the point--if the guy is making you twice as much money you should begrudge him a raise.
Don't screw him over because you got him the tools to do his job better (which you wrote off as a business expense anyway).
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| 158 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Sat, May 05, 2012, 10:28
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I didn't say I wouldn't give him a raise. I was just pointing out that productivity and wage rates aren't correlated at 100% like the author of the article implies.
The article and chart are nothing more than a cheap fluff piece designed to make a talking point and rally people against Mitt Romney/Republicans. It apparently was a success with some.
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| 159 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, May 05, 2012, 11:36
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I was just pointing out that productivity and wage rates aren't correlated at 100% like the author of the article implies.
The author implies that productivity and wages should be correlated, not that they are.
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| 160 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, May 05, 2012, 11:53
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I know you all are concentrating on the fact that the businesses bought people shiny new computers and that is why people are so much more productive. But generally, productivity measurements already account for capital costs (like a new plant, computers, etc) when they measure productivity.
So worker productivity is a measure of worker output over and above what is to be expected through workplace improvements.
In other words, productivity is a measure of how much money employees bring in, which is rising for the US and is at an all-time high. Yet wages haven't kept pace. And that is unfair. If the obviousness of this makes me a dupe for a talking point then your cynicism is either based upon an unclarity of the standard or there is little that you would understand regarding the point of calling for fairness in economic matters.
How productivity is measured.
Money quote:
TFP was first developed to compare the productivity of nations. It examines revenue per employee after subtracting productivity improvements that result from increases in capital assets, under the assumption that an investment in modern plants, equipment and technology automatically improves productivity.
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| 161 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sat, May 05, 2012, 14:17
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Frick
I think the point is that in the 1980s the country was sold on lower tax rates for the rich with the promise that it would allow businesses to increase productivity which would translate (trickle down) into greater prosperity for the working class - and that while the first part of the equation has been realized, the second half has not. The promised incentive to pass on the prosperity simply does not exist.
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| 162 | Baldwin
ID: 46429712 Mon, May 07, 2012, 14:06
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The invisible hand does not have or need the inclination to pass along prosperity.
It works automatically and better than any alternative mankind has come up with on their own.
When you come up with a superior alternative system actually working somewhere get back to us.
There is one which hasn't been tried that works better, but you can't implement it.
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| 163 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Mon, May 07, 2012, 15:21
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Instead of a min wage, how about mandatory profit sharing and disallowing some of the more creative accounting methods used to HIDE profit?
I for one, am not convinced that min wage is the issue re continue poverty. Its that after 5 yrs on the job, a wally world worker is STILL paid ... minimum wage.
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| 164 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, May 07, 2012, 15:53
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Profit sharing implies profit to be made. Many of the poor aren't able to give free labor in the hopes for higher income later.
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| 165 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, May 08, 2012, 10:12
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The invisible hand does not have or need the inclination to pass along prosperity...
When you come up with a superior alternative system actually working somewhere get back to us.
I'll take the mid-20th century USA for $1000.
Or is Boldy claiming the heart of the New Deal Era in the name of his invisible hand?
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| 166 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Tue, May 08, 2012, 10:33
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where/when PD, did I say free labor? My point is, while an employer has to pay some minimal amount by law now, they dont have to ever increase that amount, until the in wage itself increases. Difficult to work your way out of poverty, when the employer refuses to pay more than a poverty wage. With CEO pay having grown from 27x the national avg workers wage to 300x that same workers wage, the disparity is clear. The powers that be, simply refuse to pay labor, so mandate COLA increases or profit sharing or whatever you want to call it.
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| 167 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 08, 2012, 10:44
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I'll take the mid-20th century USA for $1000.
I am assuming this means you are clearly not a minority. Or just believe in myth that is not true lets look at some facts, as much we complain about health care costs how about an even more basic cost then that, food. In 1950 the average person spend 24% of there income on food as compared to today 10%. Go a head wish for days when a quarter of your income went to just put food on the table.
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| 168 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, May 08, 2012, 12:13
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By all means, Boikin, enlighten the forum on just how the dismantling of New Deal era regulations has led us to modern food prices!
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| 169 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Tue, May 08, 2012, 12:29
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Sarge, if we increased the minimum wage to $25/hour right now, what do you think the net effect would be on the economy?
The rich would see a slight increase in their cost of living, but no real change.
The middle class would be squeezed into the poor.
The poor would still be poor because the prices of everything would increase instantly.
Despite what politicians would tell you, there are no easy answers in economics. I think that increasing the tax rate at the top would good and at worse neutral to the economy. Adding a new top category would be better. The top rate today starts around $400k. Actually I would support lowering the tax rates in the current brackets, but increasing taxes at new higher brackets. Say $1M and $10M.
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| 170 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Tue, May 08, 2012, 12:32
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I tend to agree Frick, with everything you just said. But short of regulations imposed by law, I dont know how else you will get sr management to take less and pay better. Your tax theory, I completely agree with.
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| 171 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 08, 2012, 14:49
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Mith, I will once you explain why you want to live in time when discrimination was law and food costs were quarter of your wages? But I am guessing you can not, go ahead and think those times were great when air travel was reserved for the rich. Where the average family shared one car instead of now when they have 2 or more. You want me to go on? But I won't because I want to hear your justification first.
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| 172 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Tue, May 08, 2012, 15:24
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just now on CNN, Romney is taking credit for saving the auto industry. Such unmitigated gall.
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| 173 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Tue, May 08, 2012, 15:39
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Why not? The GOP has shown that if you just state the same lie over and over again, you can get the some portion of the public to believe anything - tax cuts for the rich will trickle down, there are WMD's in Iraq, Obama is a Muslim, reforming health care is tantamount to socialism...
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| 174 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, May 08, 2012, 15:52
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Boikin what are you talking about? When did I say I wanted to live in a time of rampant discrimination or high food costs?
Boldwin asked for an example of a system that worked better than his "invisible hand" - a thing that has never existed in true form in this country except arguably for a brief period of several decades in the late 18th and early 19th century - a time when discrimination was far worse than it was even the New Deal era and I suspect food just as if not far more scarce.
Allow me to ask my previous and still unanswered question in a different way - WTF does the New Deal have to do with racial discrimination and the cost of food at the time?
I'm pretty sure you're completely lost on the point of 165. It's a continuation of the earlier discussion connected to 161 and 162. Please either explain what it is you are talking about or realize you havent kept up with the discussion and try to keep up, ok?
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| 175 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, May 08, 2012, 15:54
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That should read:
except arguably for a brief period of several decades in the late 19th and early 20th century.
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| 176 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, May 08, 2012, 16:19
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What's funny is that social conservatives often point to the that era (mid 20th century) as the last time American society reflected their conservative values. That would be the proper argument to challenge by pointing out that for many Americans, the defining social characteristic of those days was racial segregation.
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| 177 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 08, 2012, 17:00
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I took you answer 165 to say you were in favor or at least making the arguement that new deal led to the 1950's a time when things were better than the invisible hand. Now if you are so up in arms about my misunderstanding why did you bring it later after I called you out on the fact that 1950's were not a panacea and that New Deal did not lead to a perfect life.
I will try and answer your question later about the new deal or at least why free markets led to lower prices later...but the racist past doesn't apply except to point out the fact that you can not argue for the success of the new deal in the modern era when you had a large portion of the country leaving as second class citizens.
re 176 it is also ironic that progressives point to time of the new deal as time pancea too.
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| 178 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Tue, May 08, 2012, 17:30
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Boikin, when have you ever heard of a progressive calling the 1930's a wonderful time to live? That is utterly laughable.
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| 179 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, May 08, 2012, 18:39
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A place where Romney is vulnerable:
His foreign policy advisor positions are stocked with neo-cons.
What does this mean in particular?:
Romney’s team is notable for including Bush aides tarnished by the Iraq fiasco: Robert Joseph, the National Security Council official who inserted the infamous “sixteen words” in Bush’s 2003 State of the Union message claiming that Iraq had tried to buy enriched uranium from Niger; Dan Senor, former spokesman for the hapless Coalition Provisional Authority under Paul Bremer in Iraq; and Eric Edelman, a top official at the Pentagon under Bush. “I can’t name a single Romney foreign policy adviser who believes the Iraq War was a mistake,” says Cato’s Preble. “Two-thirds of the American people do believe the Iraq War was a mistake. So he has willingly chosen to align himself with that one-third of the population right out of the gate.”
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| 181 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Tue, May 08, 2012, 19:40
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you were in favor or at least making the arguement that new deal led to... a time when things were better...
This very muddled. I referred to the mid-20th century as the "New Deal Era". I wasn't specifically (much less singularly) attributing the successes of the mid 20th century to the New Deal, nor was I citing the whole of the economic conditions of that time as an ideal in denial of the socioeconomic failures of the day.
...than the invisible hand.
Lets be honest. There never has been a any true time of the "invisible hand" in America. I called it arguable earlier but the fact is that the industrial revolution was (rightfully) shepherded with land grants and government loans set at below-market rates.
The realities of profit and human nature dictate that trickle-down prosperity resulting from a pure form of Boldwin's invisible hand is a myth. The universal motive is always to keep operating costs as low as possible while increasing production, not to pass on the profits to employees, for the betterment of the national economy or any other reason unless it assists in maintaining or increasing production.
The closest we ever got to it's pure form resulted in sweatshops and men who chose between working themselves to death or letting their families starve. I know of no precedent of industry instating regulations such as child labor laws or workplace safety standards or environmental regulations or antitrust agreements on their own. And of course once such regulations are imposed from the outside (be it labor demands or law) the integrity of the "invisible hand" is corrupted - and in my opinion, necessarily so.
The most basic failing of the ideal is the blind faith in the integrity of the capitalist. The idea that he is by nature a man who only exchanges value for value. The truth they invariably miss is that the the leaders of industry cannot be trusted to be any less corrupt than the leaders of government.
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| 182 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Wed, May 09, 2012, 05:14
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The universal motive is always to keep operating costs as low as possible.
The universal motive it to produce the greatest sales and profits. This leads to greater value to the buying public and greater efficiency for society as a whole.
Big government can't central command that.
Somehow 'I'll force you to pay them this and I'll force or restrict them to buying this which they do not want.' doesn't build a better mousetrap.
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| 183 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 09, 2012, 10:05
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To answer to food question, the simple answer is that the government in attempt to increased wages placed price controls on foods prices to pre collapse prices, this was done primarily controlling production. Two often unmentioned side effects of this policy was 1) increased fallow fields may have helped to contribute to the dust storms of the 30's and 2) reduced production left share croppers with out fields to work.
The closest we ever got to it's pure form resulted in sweatshops and men who chose between working themselves to death or letting their families starve. I know of no precedent of industry instating regulations such as child labor laws or workplace safety standards or environmental regulations or antitrust agreements on their own.
this is misunderstanding of the theory, what you should be asking your self is not why was there no child labor laws but why were the children working. If no child is need of work(parents forcing them) then there would be no child labor in need of protecting.
secondly that is not accurate companies and business do enact there own safety regulations, but you do not hear about those.
Finally I will agree that in practice the theory of the invisible hand does not work well with long term problems like the environment, not so much in that the companies would not self regulate but that by the point they would, it would be too late.
The most basic failing of the ideal is the blind faith in the integrity of the capitalist. The idea that he is by nature a man who only exchanges value for value. The truth they invariably miss is that the the leaders of industry cannot be trusted to be any less corrupt than the leaders of government.
There is no assumption of integrity in the theory of free markets, there is only assumption of punishment for failure.
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| 184 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Wed, May 09, 2012, 11:19
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The universal motive it to produce the greatest sales and profits. This leads to greater value to the buying public and greater efficiency for society as a whole.
This is an idealistic falsity. The whole point of opening any business, other than a non-profit, is to generate a greater ROI than can be had via investing in someone elses business. Let's now fool ourselves into thinking there is any other reason for it.
As we have seen from business over the past 20 years or so, senior management is pretty much universally glad to increase that ROI via workforce reductions, while placing greater demands upon the remaining workforce.
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| 185 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Wed, May 09, 2012, 12:20
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Boikin
the simple answer is that the government in attempt to increased wages placed price controls on foods prices to pre collapse prices, this was done primarily controlling production.
This is trending a bit off topic, but here's what happened to food prices after the New Deal:

Putting the New Deal and that tangent aside, some of the points you made:
you should be asking your self is not why was there no child labor laws but why were the children working. If no child is need of work(parents forcing them) then there would be no child labor in need of protecting.
The reason children were working adult jobs is that that's what they've always done throughout western culture. The thing that stopped it was child labor laws.
companies and business do enact there own safety regulations
Of course the do, but at the behest of what influences? Search all you want, you will find no tendency for businesses ever show any effective concern for worker safety prior to labor unions and legal regulations.
with long term problems like the environment, not so much in that the companies would not self regulate but that by the point they would, it would be too late.
What makes you say, "not so much in that the companies would not self regulate"? Where is the precedent for this happening without outside influence? Your very next comment is that "there is no assumption of integrity in the theory of free markets" but you're assuming not just integrity but social morality on their part. Again, where is there any precedent for businesses to assume such social responsibility as to cut into their profit margins to protect the environment on their own, with no influence or pressure from the outside their board rooms?
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| 186 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Wed, May 09, 2012, 12:39
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So as not to leave the wrong impression, I'm not arguing for the nationalization of all our industries. Typically, bureaucrats make terrible industrialists. But we're a nation that has enjoyed it's greatest and most productive times with a hybrid system, where capitalist markets are kept in check by government and labor and taxed accordingly.
Anyone who likes the America that emerged as the greatest economic superpower in the history of human civilization should understand that it was with such a hybrid system that we achieved that status, and that the extremes: total nationalization of industry and commerce, and unfettered capitalism, have never succeeded in developing a prosperous country (in fact to my knowledge the latter has never even existed in the modern world).
So as educated people, we should understand the value and necessity of both sides of our system and base our political discourse on that enlightened understanding. The debate should be about where the line belongs.
But unfortunately, the political rhetoric on one side is much more often spoken in such absolutist terms as to deny the value of any outside influence on markets, whatsoever. Almost always, they are openly hostile to the very concept labor unions, labor laws, environmental regulations, etc.
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| 187 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 09, 2012, 14:25
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This is trending a bit off topic, but here's what happened to food prices after the New Deal:
they went down, so as you proved my points as regulations went down prices went down.
Of course the do, but at the behest of what influences? Search all you want, you will find no tendency for businesses ever show any effective concern for worker safety prior to labor unions and legal regulations.
that only takes about 5 minutes if you know where to look, you can start with New Lanark Mills(1800).
The reason children were working adult jobs is that that's what they've always done throughout western culture. The thing that stopped it was child labor laws.
has nothing to do with western culture it universal, has everything to do with standards of living(wealth). Childhood labor is direct results of large families, but as the wealth(health) of country increases the incentive to have large families decreases and with it the incentive to have large families goes with it. And when you no longer have large families you are no longer sending your only child to work the mines.
What makes you say, "not so much in that the companies would not self regulate"? Where is the precedent for this happening without outside influence? Your very next comment is that "there is no assumption of integrity in the theory of free markets" but you're assuming not just integrity but social morality on their part. Again, where is there any precedent for businesses to assume such social responsibility as to cut into their profit margins to protect the environment on their own, with no influence or pressure from the outside their board rooms
You don't have to have integrity to act with integrity. I can save a man from a fire because he is my brother or I could save him because he owes me money. Clearly the outcome is the same but the reasoning is quite different.
Lets look at it differently, toyota prius, toyota makes the prius because it makes economic sense not because they are trying to help the environment. But why do consumers buy them, probably not for economic reasons.
and unfettered capitalism, have never succeeded in developing a prosperous country (in fact to my knowledge the latter has never even existed in the modern world).
the British empire was based on the ideas of laize fair capitalism. Also see the Roman economic policy of the Augustan age.
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| 188 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Wed, May 09, 2012, 14:35
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The British Empire at its height, had 2 classes. The wealthy, and the dirt poor. Leads to a VERY real potential for civil war. (See France for ex)
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| 189 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, May 09, 2012, 14:52
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they went down, so as you proved my points as regulations went down prices went down.
Actually, they went down because food became much, much cheaper to make as a result of pesticides, genetic modifications of plants and animals, and cheaper distribution costs.
None of those had anything to do with regulation.
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| 190 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 09, 2012, 15:29
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you are correct, and by regulation you mean the lack of. Prices went down directly from the lack of regulation pricing food based free commerce from the rest of the world, encouraged the the expansion of food production, which is the exact opposite of the goals of price fixing New Deal. And this is why I said the graph made my point.
re 188: oddly enough they never had a civil war like the french and even more oddly they had separatist movement in the North America that wanted an even more hands off economy.
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| 191 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Wed, May 09, 2012, 16:20
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had GB won that war in 177X, do you deny that it would have been called a civil war? The difference between a civil war and a revolutionary war, is who won the thing.
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| 192 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, May 10, 2012, 09:48
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Probably not, these are usually referred to as rebellions and secondly the revolution did not take place because of inequality of wealth as you appear to be claiming in #188.
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| 193 | Perm Dude
ID: 14591012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 14:02
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Back in 2012, it looks like Romney is getting backed into some real corners as a result of Obama's announcement on gay marriage. He stated yesterday that be believes gay marriage and marijuana are
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| 194 | Frick
ID: 04541013 Thu, May 10, 2012, 14:54
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I hate cliff hanger endings.
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| 195 | Perm Dude
ID: 14591012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 15:27
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WTF? New server stuff. Will re-post.
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| 196 | Perm Dude
ID: 14591012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 15:32
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...states rights issues. However, he signed a pledge to back the Federal Marriage Act which would federalize the first issue entirely.
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| 197 | Perm Dude
ID: 14591012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 15:33
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He also stated that marriage for 3000 years has been between one man and one woman. Yet his own grandfather left the country to get around this--clearly his own family history contradicts his assertion.
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| 198 | Perm Dude
ID: 14591012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 15:33
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Looks like the problem was with quotes (including quotes in links). I'll avoid them in the transition.
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| 199 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sun, May 13, 2012, 00:41
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Sorry I haven't had much time for the forum recently. Re: post 187:
you proved my points as regulations went down prices went down.
Huh? I don't know what has been proved but the provided data only contradicts your point. You implied the New Deal caused high food prices. When pressed, you explained that price controls were installed to support wages. I then showed very plainly that what happened to food prices after the new deal was that they declined. I don't claim to be an expert on this and don't know what food price controls you're talking about but I suspect that perhaps you're confused about when New Deal programs started taking effect - 1933.
New Lanark Mills(1800)
That's an interesting story that I wasn't aware of. Thank you for pointing me toward it. Unfortunately, what I asked for was a tendency for businesses to show concern for labor safety. I'm not surprised that you were able to find a single exception to the rule, in this case a business owned by an avowed socialist who used his business to display his vision of progressive social engineering. And it does seem from my brief reading that he had impact, though it was through government regulations inspired by the successes of his mines. Anyway, as I said you won't find any such tendency for worker safety without outside influence.
as the wealth(health) of country increases the incentive to have large families decreases... And when you no longer have large families you are no longer sending your only child to work the mines.
Not exactly. There have been plenty of wealthy countries in history. Their working classes still sent their kids to work or worked them in their own businesses. The first difference-maker is not th wealth of the country. Its the wealth of the working class. The second is the availability of public education. Again, the invisible hand has never proven to support the expansion of either of these things on any widespread level without prompting from outside influences.
You don't have to have integrity to act with integrity.
Actually you do. You might want to check the definition of that word and rethink what you wrote on it. But the word integrity is another tangent. The point I responded to was your suggestion that some companies might self-regulate for environmental concerns. You offered an analogy about saving a mans life because he owes you money. How many examples could you possibly provide of industries that are self-motivated to pattern its practices so that it protects the environment from harm that it's operation and activities would otherwise cause?
Toyota sells Priuses and that's terrific. But the auto industry as a whole does not have a strong environmental record outside of meeting government regulations.
laize fair capitalism... Roman economic policy of the Augustan age
What do those things have to do with the preceding point about unfettered capitalism?
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| 200 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sun, May 13, 2012, 09:50
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Washington Post hit piece implodes. Paper attempts stealth retractions.
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| 201 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, May 13, 2012, 11:33
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hey, a non-story about a non-story!
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| 202 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sun, May 13, 2012, 15:23
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Racheal Maddow seemed to think it was a worthy story. The WP editor seemed to think it was worthy enuff for a full boat maxxed out piece.
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| 203 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sun, May 13, 2012, 16:07
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so? did anyone here applaud it?
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| 204 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, May 13, 2012, 17:08
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Racheal Maddow seemed to think it was a worthy story.
yea. no. another misleading statement.
from Maddow...
I admit to being torn over the relevance of this....
... I suspect nearly all of us can recall events from our high school years we wish we'd handled differently...
...Does a story like this matter? Should it? Is this likely to quickly fade away as a youthful indiscretion, or will Romney be pressed for an explanation?
seem to me, what Maddow deems worthy, is discussing how much this story matters.
quite frankly, i don't think it does. i think it's a complete non-story. there isn't a one of us here that didn't do dumb things as a teenager.
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| 205 | Controlled Bursts
ID: 41613226 Sun, May 13, 2012, 18:09
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A place where Romney is vulnerable:
I was surprised that a post with this header wasn't a whole lot longer, but in his defense Perm Dude did use the singular "A place".
Isn't it great that the other choice in this election to the "radical ultra left wing Saul Alinksy disciple" [sigh] is an "extreme conservative"? [giggle]
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| 207 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sun, May 13, 2012, 20:36
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Just another Axelrod slime job. Anyone who thot the Watergate pranksters were a damning indictment of Nixon should hang their heads.
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| 208 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, May 13, 2012, 21:11
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Of course it is. There is no other possible explanation. Now that Romney is your party's nominee, you must defend him tooth and nail. I understand.
Probably better to sit this one out, I'm thinking.
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| 209 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sun, May 13, 2012, 21:30
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America dies prematurely if Obama wins. Five Scotus members who hate constitutional limitations on government power and you can kiss it all goodbye.
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| 210 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, May 13, 2012, 21:45
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Heh. Nice. You're a half-step from a call to arms.
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| 211 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, May 13, 2012, 22:27
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lmao. good lord. you're chicken little, a 1970s "end is near" Jesus freak, and the most hysterical of nutcases all rolled into one.
can you define prematurely though? are we talking before 2012 wraps up? maybe sometime in 2013? 2021?
what month? do you have an exact date? i've got some projects i'm working on and want to make sure i get them wrapped up before America dies.
as long as you have this insight, this form of ESP given to you by the devil at the crossroads no doubt, i'd really like to know.
thanks. it's much appreciated.
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| 212 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Thu, May 17, 2012, 16:50
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A liberal, a moderate and a conservative walk into a bar. The bartender looks up and says, 'Hello Mr. Romney.'
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| 213 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Thu, May 17, 2012, 22:13
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Rofl
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| 216 | Boldwin
ID: 43492714 Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 04:32
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Just some quick comments on this.
Tho this church officially disowns this, in fact they have a very specific twist on prophecy. They historically believe that each Mormon has their own personal prophetic channel to god. It's one of the rarer religious views of divine revelation among the world's religions. This has a bearing on the sectarianism among Mormons which has major repercussions. This has a bearing on the effect this 'rumor' will have among Mormons.
I am predicting he will get an energetic ground game from this the likes of which we haven't seen before. I tend to think it will be under-reported. Nor do I think it needs to be emphasized by the media but it is a fascinating wrinkle.
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| 217 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 10:49
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So Obama gets mocked for having enthusiastic supporters, and Romney's gets, what--a "wow, some of these Mormons believe Romney's presidency is prophesied"?
I see no extra push for Romney from this news. Mormons are already going to support him in wide numbers.
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| 218 | Boldwin
ID: 43492714 Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 15:21
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Who mocked Obama for having enthusiastic supporters?
I'll disparage his SEIU goons but...
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| 219 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 16:16
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Who mocked? You mocked. Every time you used the term "hopey changey" for instance. Or made fun of Obama supporters fro supposedly deifying him.
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| 222 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 16:23
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I've had my problems with PolitiFact in the past, but this is interesting:
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| 225 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 08:54
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Romney to GOP swing state governors:
Downplay job growth
Mitt Romney’s campaign asked Florida Gov. Rick Scott (R) to downplay his state’s job growth after several press releases from the governor’s campaign and messages from the Florida Chamber of Commerce trumpeted the gains for the month of May, according to Bloomberg News.
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| 226 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 12:46
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Mitt Romney in a speech at a campaign stop CNN just showed, blasting Obama for shutting down the Keystone pipeline and not bringing that additional oil into the country.
Problem Mitt, you dishonest PoS...that pipeline was so a CANADIAN Oil Co, can transport its oil to a port for sale and transport to CHINA, w/o having to run the pipeline across their OWN country and risk the environmental damage to their OWN soil. It had NOTHING AT ALL, to do with oil supplies/prices in THIS country and you damn well know it.
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| 227 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 13:04
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you might want to get your facts straight to sarge, before you start call others liars.
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| 228 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 13:30
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those facts are straight boikin. The whole point of the pipeline, is to give that co in Canada, access to the Gulf ports.
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| 229 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 13:33
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Sarge is correct in this case about the pipeline. I don't know about what Romney said about it, however. I've certainly seen that case made, combined with wildly inflated construction jobs that even the pipeline company has backed away from.
The GOP isn't interested in Keystone per se, except as using it as a tool against Obama. Since they aren't really interested in the thing, they aren't altogether interested in all the facts, either.
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| 230 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 14:07
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you sure you want to back him on this one?
that pipeline was so a CANADIAN Oil Co,
False, while the pipeline would be built by an Canadian company(the US partner backed out) the oil transported would most likely be used by oil companies such as Exxon (not a Canadian firm) and the only confirmed user is Valero (a US firm).
run the pipeline across their OWN country and risk the environmental damage to their OWN soil
False, the reason is utilize excess refinery capacity on the gulf coast.
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| 231 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 14:14
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false boikin:
link
Canadian tar sands oil would be exported
Keystone XL would have diverted Canadian oil from refineries in the Midwest to the Gulf Coast where it could be refined and exported. Many of these refineries are in Foreign Trade Zones where oil may be exported to international buyers without paying U.S. taxes.
link
In an interview with Fox News in January, TransCanada CEO Russ Girling noted that demand for Canadian oil will all but guarantee that the pipeline is built -- if not south into the United States, then likely west towards the Pacific Ocean with access to Asia.
It was NEVER about increasing the US supply of retail fuel.
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| 232 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 14:24
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All you showed was that oil was going to be shipped overseas and if you noticed in my post i never said you were wrong about the oil going to China, what I said you were wrong about were the reasons for the oil line being made and the owners of the oil. Do you want to keep digging your own hole?
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| 233 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 14:25
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cognitive disconnect there boikin? The Canadian Oil Co spokesman said, if he cant move it to the gulf, he'll move it west across Canada. But his FIRST choice, was to transport across someone elses soil, not his own.
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| 234 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 16:11
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That only says what? That if you can't get your first choice you try and make a new plan? It still does not prove any of your points if any things it helps to refute your idea that they could not go through Canada for environmental reasons. Canada already approved the pipeline on their soil so if that had been his first choice he would have gone that way not through the US.
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| 235 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 16:13
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are you deliberately obtuse? His FIRST choice, was to put someone elses land at risk, not his own.
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| 236 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 13:36
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but his reason was not environmental as you claim can you read you own remarks? Like i said before they would prefer to go through the US because that is where the refineries are. You have no grasp of the situation do you? You probably should be a politician.
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| 237 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 13:55
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| 238 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 15:57
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Awkward.
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| 239 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 16:34
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| 240 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 16:56
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| 241 | Tree
ID: 37622517 Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 18:43
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how anyone can take this man seriously is beyond me. Even if you just stop at the whole Obamacare business, which is basically Romney's baby that he somehow opposes, it's absurd. but when you mix in the fact that his politics have more flip-flops than a Jimmy Buffet concert, it's just taking it to entirely new levels.
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| 242 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 20:48
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| 244 | Mith
ID: 10636519 Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 15:44
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From the comments section under the Venn diagram:it's actually a pretty clever ad because on the Venn diagram of the American electorate the "Voting for Romney" and "Don't Know What the F*ck a Venn Diagram Is" circles pretty much overlap each other.
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| 245 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 23:54
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A) Plenty of Dems don't know. Take one look at Debbie Wasserman Schultz' dumb mug and tell me she knows.
B) You've never met a conservative on this board who didn't know what a Venn diagram was.
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| 246 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 23:58
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Really B? Is that the best you can do? The rotoguru version of "I know you are but what am I"? Is that REALLY all you have?
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| 247 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 00:03
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Really Sarge? Is that the best you can do? "Romney voters are stoopid" is your idea of interesting forum posting?
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| 248 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 00:18
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Yep...thats all you have.
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| 249 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 00:24
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I posted 244. And it was a joke. Lighten up.
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| 250 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 00:28
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Yeah, promoting the meme that the other party is too stupid to vote, is harmless fun, and not pernicious at all on your part.
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| 251 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 00:31
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roflmfao....compared to what you say about anyone left of Limbaugh? Its downright friendly.
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| 252 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 02:04
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Pernicious? Not a dangerous moron like me.
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| 253 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 04:26
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We've had entirely too many ratchets in place. Ratchets like when liberals insist republicans can only nominate centrists and then democrats only nominate strict party-line marxists.
I will not have it that liberals parade around in their 'bright' costume without being called on it nor remain silent while they sneer at those who actually have learned from history.
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| 254 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 08:40
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When today's "liberals" vote like yesterday's Republicans, yet you still spray around your Marxist spittle, it's hard to do anything but giggle.
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| 255 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 10:38
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Ratchets like when liberals insist republicans can only nominate centrists and then democrats only nominate strict party-line marxists.
Republicans can nominate whoever they want. It wasn't liberals who filled Romney's Super PAC coffers. Liberals would have probably loved to see a Palin, Bachmann, Gingrich, Cain or Santorum. Since your interpretation of what constitutes a Marxist is so comically distorted, one can only be amused at how that comment is so completely out of touch with reality. Obama has turned out to be a centrist, and Marxists hate him.
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| 256 | Tree
ID: 23633710 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 11:36
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...democrats only nominate strict party-line marxists.
statements like the above make certain right leaning folks too stupid to vote.
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| 258 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 15:29
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If there wasn't a double standard on how ideological a nominee can be, Robert Bork, Neil Gorsuch and Paul Clement would be on SCOTUS and we wouldn't have socialized medicine on the books today.
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| 259 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 15:36
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Because "socialized medicine" is bad?
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| 260 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 15:50
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That goes without saying to anyone who has the ability to learn from history.
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| 261 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 16:00
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I know it goes without saying for you, which is why I wanted you to actually say it. After all, getting someone to face their incorrect biases is, in the end a good thing.
And by "good thing" I mean longer lives, lower infant mortality rates, healthier lives, etc.
Americans, by and large, are like a 15-year-old with a sports car about health care in this country. They can brag about having the "best" car in the world, but until they learn how to drive it, it is just empty rhetoric and crashed cars on the side of the road.
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| 262 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 16:07
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If you had ever heard of and understood the implications of QUALY (Quality Adjusted Life Years measurement) you'd realize you're not even a full human with full human rights, right now thanks to Obama and his team of highly skilled euthanazia experts.
Congratulations mXXXn.
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| 263 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 19:47
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Still running with that death panel meme? Go for it! The facts are horribly inconvenient for you, so your cocoon building is probably a continued self-comfort.
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| 264 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 19:53
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"Obamacare", stylized HEAVILY on "Romneycare", and using language much like the GOP wriotten expansion of medi-care; does not contain "death panels".
We all know B, the truth is an almost insurmountable stumbling block for you, however I would point to post 1224 here:
link
Obamacare has death panels!: That sounds so cartoonishly evil it must be true, right? Well, no. No part of the bill says anything about appointing people to decide whether or not someone dies. The decision over whether or not your claim is approved is still in the hands of your insurer. However, now there's an appeals process so if your claim gets turned down, you can challenge that. And the government watches that appeals process to make sure it's not being unfair to customers. So if anything the PPACA is trying to stop the death panels. ( Citation: Page 23, sec. 2719 )
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| 265 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 19:59
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Do I really need to quote the liberals on this board who finally admitted after they won, that there were death panels and thank goodness, what a great idea? Or liberal pundits admitting it?
Care to make a wager I can prove both claims? Like, you STFU denying what I can prove?
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| 266 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 20:05
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Heh. No, please, "prove" that "death panels" exist. I mean, in the real world, not some fake Beck-like cartoon connections.
And then prove that "death panels" don't exist, in whatever form you "find" them, in insurance companies who already decided, before Obamacare, to cut off the health insurance for people who needed it.
Go ahead and justify tens of thousands of deaths a year so that some deadbeats in the system can be free from the tyranny of having to pay for their own insurance.
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| 267 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 20:06
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now now...no need to stomp your feet and throw a tantrum
there are no death panels B. (and we all know, how lownonexistant your level of proof is, when it is you proving something to yourself)
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| 268 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 21:11
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From the Healthcare Debates II - The Dems Strike Back! thread.
937 Wilmer McLean ID: 2899151 Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 06:56 The bleeding edge of rationing -- Obamas health plan and the new power of the United States Preventive Services Task Force -- Scott Gottlieb | American Enterprise Institute -- November 03, 2011
Under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), a previously obscure government advisory body has acquired vast authority to decide which health care services Americans will have access to. --- Now its recommendations will have regulatory force that will effectively bind clinicians by determining what their patients can be reimbursed for. --- a body that is neither advisory or regulatory, and exempted from all of the customary rules that govern other federal entities -------------------------------- Paul Krugman admits peath panels are a key part of Obamacare. --------------------------------
Obama's budget director Peter Orszag admits it's death panels being used to contain costs. --------------------------------- Maureen Dowd of the south, after calling every republican who pointed out death panels for a year, a liar, comes out after the fact and praises the 'necessary death panels". --------------------------------- I could have pointed you to DWetz cheering death panels but who cares what he says. Even Sarge continually claims death panels are the same as what insurance companies do anyway so what's so bad about death panels?
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| 269 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 21:13
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Wilmer, is not a bastion of liberalism B. He tends toward the right, from anything I've ever seen him post. (which is too rare to be honest)
So for another rightwinger, to echo your own sentiment, is hardly proof of a lefty, agreeing with you at all.
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| 270 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 21:17
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So when Paul Krugman slaps you in the face with reality, what is he? A conservative?
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| 271 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 21:22
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I only cheer death panels when they're for you, B. Anyway, why should we listen to a CINO like you?
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| 272 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 21:24
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No, but then he didnt say "Death anels" either:
KRUGMAN: The advisory path has the ability to make more or less binding judgments on saying this particular expensive treatment actually doesn’t do any good medically and so we’re not going to pay for it. That is actually going to save quite a lot of money. We don’t know how much yet. The CBO gives it very little credit. But most of the health care economists I talk to think it’s going to be a really major cost saving.
Which is true. A treatment which is ineffective, shouldnt be covered. Problem today B, is that treatments which ARE effective, but expensive, insurance companies decline to cover anyway.
I know the truth is a bane to your rigid ideology, but really dude...God has no use for an outright liar. Right?
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| 273 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 21:37
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The GOP is now reduced to arguing against studies showing health care treatment efficiency and for deadbeats in a federal program.
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| 274 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 21:56
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Learning from history:Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year
Around 29 per cent of patients that die in hospital are on controversial 'care pathway' or 'death pathway' to euthanasia. (Liverpool Care Pathway) And that's just tiny England. Prorate that for America which has a 6 x larger population and we'll be looking at 780,000 euthanazias a year.It works like this. The death panel in England decides Rudi Hargreaves, a 22-year-old teaching assistant living in Hull, East Yorks, England, doesn't deserve the ~$30,000 procedure to save his life so he must starve to death. Oh, and England's socialized medicine is so inefficient and expensive they have decided to cut out one of every ten jobs in healthcare in the next five years.
Too bad LCP doesn't stand for Liberal Care Pathway, cause that is who is to blame and they are the ones who should walk the walk.
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| 275 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 21:57
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What do you define as death panels? A group of people that sit and pass sentence on individual cases? Or a group that uses studies to determine which treatments should be covered on a cost/benefit rationale.
Most insurance plans already have death panels if you go by definition #2. If that is by the insurance company or the company that purchased the plan (and decided what to cover) it doesn't matter, I would guess that your current plan has a death panel unless you are self-insured.
One of the reasons that health care costs are sky-rocketing is that we are willing to spend huge amounts of money to prolong a person's life. My personal anecdote is my great-grandmother. I never knew her before she was in a retirement home and I was 14 when she died. I would go in and visit her with my dad and she didn't know where she was, who she was, and had to be restrained to keep herself from injuring herself. I have no idea what those last 10 years of her life cost the government, but I can't see the benefit to society. Most of her children and grandchildren never visited her because it was to painful to see how far gone she was.
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| 276 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 22:38
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Care to make a wager I can prove both claims? Like, you STFU denying what I can prove?
your proof is worthless. you idolize criminals, and then make excuses for their law breaking ways.
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| 277 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 22:48
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Time was, saying "STFU" got you excoriated on these boards.
Different rules for Boldy, I guess.
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| 278 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 02:44
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Boldy's big brain has once again tipped him over into the deep, deep pool occupied by such screeching, dribbling, frothing ghosts as Terri Schiavo.
If the last psychic break is any indication, he'll be babbling painful nonsense for a good 8 months.
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| 280 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 19:39
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The latest attack on Romney is that he's had money in Swiss Bank accounts and the Cayman Islands.
Turns out one of the lead attackers, DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Shultz, not only refuses to release her tax returns, she's invested in Swiss banks and other non-American entities.
So what?
Romney and Wasserman Shultz can invest wherever and however they want, and it has little to nothing to do with leadership qualities or national integrity. It only matters when someone complains about something and they're doing the exact same thing.
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| 281 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 19:51
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I don't really care either way about the tax returns. The guy is filthy rich and no one has come up with evidence that he's done anything illegal.
However, I've been struck by the difference between his race, and his father's. George Romney valued an open, frank discourse-- a lesson seemingly lost on his son.
Andrew Sullivan touched on this a bit earlier today.
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| 282 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 01:16
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When #19 on Forbes list of most influential liberals, and a fervent Obama supporter tells you he wishes he could vote for Romney Sr. ...
...your acceptance of that at face value is hilarious.
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| 283 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 01:23
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Especially when the whole point of the piece is to participate in the Dem talking-point-of-the-day namely that anyone with a Swiss bank account is un-American.
Because you know, Dems hate it when you question if someone, especially a candidate or a Dem pol is anti-American.
And they really hate bigotry. *roll*
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| 284 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 01:48
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George Romney was open, engaging with both the voters and the press, and actually held talked-about and clear positions on the issues. Who wouldn't want that?
Oh wait--you don't.
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| 286 | Tree
ID: 346241211 Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 12:27
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Especially when the whole point of the piece is to participate in the Dem talking-point-of-the-day namely that anyone with a Swiss bank account is un-American.
actually, the talking point is one that points to a trail of greed, and more importantly, dishonesty.
such as this:
New questions about when Romney officially left Bain Capital
Romney has repeatedly said he left Bain in 1999 to lead the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City. But according to the Boston Globe, Bain's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission say Romney remained the firm's "sole stockholder, chairman of the board, chief executive officer, and president" until 2002...
...The timing is notable because Romney has said his resignation from the company in 1999 meant he was not responsible for companies owned by Bain that went bankrupt or laid off workers after that date.
we all realize that dishonesty doesn't matter to you. you've supported liars and criminals many times over.
but, to a lot of people, honesty matters, and is a character trait worth admiring.
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| 287 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 13:40
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So, if one could point out where Obama has lied a couple times, you would not vote for Obama.
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| 288 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 13:51
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<---NOT voting for Obama, Even though my write in will most likely be tossed aside, since C Powell wont appear on the ballot. (how btw is THAT legal? Why cant a US citizen write in whoever the hell they want to, long as that person is constitutionally eligible to hold the office?)
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| 289 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 03:18
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#286: So either Romney worked at a no-show CEO job for three years (at $100K/year) and didn't know anything about the shady deals Bain was doing at the time (through he was getting paid a great salary and benefits from their profits and still declared himself CEO on the SEC forms for those years)
or
Romney was involved, knew about it, and is now scrambling to distance himself from a Bain period in which their most shady stuff was going on.
I've gotta say, on this issue it is Obama 1 or Obama 1
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| 290 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 07:43
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Or he stepped down, but kept his name as CEO (since he was the sole shareholder) since someone has to sign the forms, but wasn't involved in the day-to-day operations.
I was hoping that the article state specifics of the filings, but it didn't. When I went to the SEC database to look at some filings, there are 80 companies that show up. To think that he signed 7 documents over 3 years (out of a low end estimate of 1,000 filings) doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.
To say that he continued to draw a salary, he was Chairman of the Board of a company that he owned. That salary isn't outrageous and is inline with the position. And the Chairman position would not be making day-to-day operation decisions.
The comment about sucking the money out of the steelmill in Kansas. I'll try to find the article that goes into detail about Bain's involvement. The company ended up in bankruptcy, but only after Bain injected a large amount of capital and tried to make it work for a decade. But, that doesn't play well with the rest of the article.
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| 291 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 12:47
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Frick: I don't think that a no-show job for $100K/year (for three years) will resonate with many regular folks.
I, for one, believe that is exactly what happens, and Romney, then and now, sees nothing wrong with it in relation to the real-world experiences of everyday people. The expectations that accompany wealth is what will make people think twice about supporting the guy.
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| 292 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 13:36
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PD, you maybe right, then again alot of people have no-show jobs, they are called 401k's....
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| 293 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 13:39
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Not really comparable.
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| 294 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 13:44
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because? everyone who owes a government bond gets paid for doing nothing.
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| 295 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 14:16
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PDs point is that it's a political loser for Romney because voters will resent his being credited with a six figure salary high profile and responsible executive title like of a major corporation with the influence and power of Bain without having to show up or be responsible for anything.
Its not comparable because the overwhelming majority of people earning a paycheck from a 401k are retirees who entered the fund for the purpose of retaining something close to the low to middle class lifestyle they had in their working lives.
Further (if you'll allow a tangent) for most current retirees with income from a 401k, the fund was a consolation prize when insanely overpaid corporate executives ended their pension plans. For the majority of those people, their 401k income falls wildly short of the expectations sold to them, thanks largely to insanely overpaid executives who got even more rich cooking books and betting against America - with almost no repercussions, whatsoever.
The insanely overpaid executive who get richer and richer while the rest of us are increasingly squeezed is the class and the ethic that Mitt Romney represents to people who are weary of him. Like PD said, whether he lied in his filings or really did (as he claims) earn $100k/year on top of bonuses and portfolio gains during that time while not being responsible for anything they did, it's a political loser for him.
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| 296 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 14:40
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I guess, it doesn't bother me either way, this is what rich people do, given the opportunity the majority of us would to the same.
To diverge a bit more. Insanely over paid is all relative, I am sure there are people picking fruit right now who say I am insanely overpaid, does this mean that I should not try and get paid more? look at your own quote "Further (if you'll allow a tangent) for most current retirees with income from a 401k, the fund was a consolation prize when insanely overpaid corporate executives ended their pension plans." now to you that looks unjust but to someone with out a pension or any savings this looks like just fair turn around to them.
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| 297 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 14:47
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...but to someone with out a pension...
Unless you had a pension, then it was taken by execs who also took a multi-million dollar annual pay raise.
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| 298 | Seattle Zen
ID: 47630913 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 16:56
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I don't think that a no-show job for $100K/year (for three years) will resonate with many regular folks.
I'll bet you one quarter of that salary that you are wrong, PD ;)
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| 299 | Mith
ID: 266491315 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 17:32
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Insanely over paid is all relative
True. But I think the math isn't lost on most people. In a year I might take home 5-10X that of a farm worker but what's an average year for Romney compared with the same farm worker?
Moreover, the income of American middle class earners do not create anything like the income disparity issues we see created by the perecntage of a corporate output that is funnelled directly to the executive class. Back in the mid 20th century when our economy was healthy execs were perfectly happy earning 10X the income of workers. Now they make hundreds of times as much as their employees.
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| 300 | Mith
ID: 266491315 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 17:35
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And lets not forget that those comparatively "pauper" executives from the 20th century were paying a much higher percentage of their income in taxes, to boot.
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| 301 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 18:48
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If someone could show me how shareholders lost the handle on paying reasonable costs for their executives, I'd be quite interested. I do indeed suspect that executives have found a way to shield those decisions from shareholder review and control. It's hard to accept that this would be merely a case of a genuine market forces increase in price.
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| 302 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 18:54
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Boards of Directors set Exec pay. I'd wager it is a fairly small community of people who are "qualified" to be a multi-national corporate CEO type. The board members of those entities know each other, and they know the candidates. GOBN, at the highest possible level.
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| 304 | Mith
ID: 266491315 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 19:12
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Of course it's a good old boy's club. The 1st tier level execs (COOs, CFOs, etc) tend to sit on those boards these days.
There's your invisible hand.
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| 305 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 19:29
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It always was. What changed to make the exec pay skyrocket?
I don't think this should be fixed by government attacks on these individuals but there surely are steps that could be taken, corporate legal guidelines to return control to shareholders.
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| 306 | Mith
ID: 266491315 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 19:36
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Corporate legal guidelines to return control to shareholders.
HAHAHA! Run that one past your favorite GOP controlled congressional committe and get back to me on how many times they call you a freedom-hating socialist.
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| 307 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 20:11
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Do you know who the vast majority of shareholders are? Pension and mutual fund managers. If they own enough of a company they are often invited (or elect themselves) to a board position.
Outsiders are typically on the compensation committee and they vote for bigger and bigger compensation packages. They can turn around and point to the compensation of other companies to justify bigger and bigger raises and compensation packages for themselves.
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| 308 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 21:31
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Stock options, retroactive stock options. Especially when the company stock has gone up a lot.
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| 309 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 00:03
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The sudden drastic change in relative executive pay clearly began to occur during the 1980s, when, to my understanding, deregulation in numerous forms took place.
Was it around this time that corporate executives saw an increasing percentage of their increasing incomes coming from massive bonuses rather than salary?
Another thing that happened in that decade was the highest tax brackets were eliminated, sending people who were paying 70-90% in the previous half-century down into the new 50% top bracket and then a few years later into the new 30something% top bracket.
It makes sense that the good old boys would have kept exec paychecks at a rate that didn't see almost all of it going to the IRS until Reagan cut taxes on the wealthy.
This is not a researched answer. Anyone more familiar than me care to weigh in?
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| 310 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 03:36
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It makes intuitive sense, tho I don't put too much faith in this...
...that before the Reagan era after a certain point the execs just said, what's the point? Anything further will just get taxed away anyway. Which is just sick that the government would do that.
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| 311 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 03:44
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So by that reading, they always had it in their power with the tools at their disposal, to drive their pay thru the roof without shareholders being able to restrain them from looting the company.
I don't buy it.
We could actually be looking at this backwards. Perhaps this is really like a Magna Carta moment for the top-tier business elite who have finally managed to narrow the gap between their financial power and the power of the super-wealthy. A revolt of the competent against the merely wealthy.
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| 312 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 03:50
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And I know yer thinkin' 'hey I'm competent and I didn't get mine' but the Magna Carta only started the devolution of power away from the monarchy. It only benefited the top nobles just below the monarchy, but eventually in the following centuries it led to considerable benefits to all lower classes.
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| 313 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 11:38
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by that reading, they always had it in their power with the tools at their disposal, to drive their pay thru the roof
No, I offered two potentially congruent hypotheses. That deregulation made them able to do it and tax cuts on high earners gave them a reason to.
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| 314 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 13:06
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Ok, what specific deregulation allowed it?
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| 315 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 14:09
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The compounding affect of all of them. (Yep, if you are gonna be such an ass as to imply that no deregulation could have contributed, I will be such an ass as to imply that every piece of deregulation did so. Now, we can either continue in this vein, or I will admit that some pieces of deregulation were good and you can admit that some pieces of regulation are good. How would you like to proceed? Up to you.)
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| 316 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 10:26
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Anything further will just get taxed away anyway.
This was a LOL moment catching on this thread up for me. Nice. Do you think the "execs" are that stupid as to not realize how marginal taxation works? Or perhaps you believe that they are now working several times as hard as they were before, since the money the Right wanted to given the to trickle down was, in fact, kept instead?
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| 317 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 10:45
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When the rich were paying 70-80 percent I think it's entirely reasonable to think that is a disincentive.
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| 318 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 11:36
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I'm guessing that there are years where his rate was down in the single digits, or perhaps negative, through masterful handling of the tax code.
Small business owners dutifully paying their 34% will not be pleased if he's foolish enough to release his returns.
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| 319 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 11:50
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#317: Except that the reality is that we had boom years when the tax rates were at their highest. This is one of those "you might think..." moments which pop when measured against reality.
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| 320 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 14:22
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link
The former Massachusetts governor would make U.S. corporations’ overseas profits exempt from U.S. taxes. These profits are already treated favorably under the tax code compared to corporate profits that are earned and reported domestically, creating an inefficient bias toward investment offshore. The favorable treatment of profits that are reported offshore also creates rewards for corporations that shift profits (on paper) out of the United States to foreign countries, including tax havens such as Bermuda and the Cayman Islands.
Romney’s proposed exemption for foreign profits would exacerbate the worst features of our current tax system. It would:
*Enhance the tax code’s rewards for moving jobs and investments overseas *Provide a gratuitous windfall to some of the very companies that have already shifted jobs and profits overseas *Further invite the offshore tax haven abuse that deprives the U.S. Treasury of tens of billions of dollars in revenue every year
Hell of a plan there Mitt.
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| 321 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 14:28
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Mitt Romney's campaign slogan seems to be: "My wealthy friends are getting held down by the Man!"
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| 322 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 15:50
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Yeah, no not really.
Mitt's slogan is, 'it's the economy, stupid".
Obama's are "hey, look at all that guy's rich friends, don't look at mine".
"Why oh why didn't Mitt keep on every last employee at the companies he took over?" "Better they all lose their job in bankruptcy than just some."
etc.
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| 323 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 16:16
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I think you are right that Romney is betting it all on the economy. And it is a bet: If the economy (or the expectations of it) change, Romney is toast.
But here's the other thing: He's tried to position himself as a business guy who can fix the economy with his keen business sense. If Obama succeeds in knocking the legs out of that argument (with Romney's unwitting help these days), Romney is left with nothing after hammering Obama on owning the economy.
In other words, if Romney is not an attractive option on the issue of his own choosing (the economy) then we might as well bury him now.
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| 324 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 17:44
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Yeah, you'd like to believe we can ignore Obama's performance.
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| 325 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 17:55
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No, we know that elections are about choices. The GOP already chose its leader in Romney. Now you have to live with that choice and hope people listen to your side's lies about Obama long enough not to notice that Romney is an empty suit without political will or philosophy settled into anything resembling a solid.
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| 326 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 18:00
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This is kinda typical: Romney camp attacks Obama for "crony capitalism" but can't name a single policy to fix the problem, nor can they offer assurances they won't do the same.
Cuccinelli repeatedly attacked Obama for appointing “bundlers,” or top campaign fundraisers, to his administration, but offered no assurance at all that Romney would institute a policy restricting their appointments. Even if Romney did insist on keeping bundlers out of his administration, it would be impossible to tell. Romney, unlike Obama, John McCain and President George W. Bush, won’t release a list of his bundlers, according to campaign finance advocates. The only ones publicly disclosed so far are bundlers who are also registered lobbyists, since they’re governed by disclosure requirements. Obama, by contrast, does not allow lobbyists to raise money for his campaign.
They need to re-work their internal playbook, where the first question they ask after an idea comes to them is: Will this attack on Obama backfire because it applies to Romney even more?
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| 328 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 10:54
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I tried several times to post this over the weekend but couldn't get anything more than a short post through the connectivity problems the site was experiencing.
#314: what specific deregulation
Like I said it's not a researched hypothesis, which is why I asked for someone more familiar to weigh in.
I haven't had a lot of time to wade through and try to educate myself on deregulation policies of recent decades so I won't claim to know my stuff in lieu of sufficient supporting evidence (as some addressees of this post might tend to do on various topics, such as voter fraud, for example).
So in response to myself, here's one person's idea:There are multiple contributors to this situation, which include the massive increase in the off-shoring of American production, the decline of labor unions, and changes in compensation practices by corporations.
As for the off-shoring, the income gains realized by executives from the off-shoring of American production were essentially one-time gains. These were effectively windfall profits made by the sale of American production to foreign countries, i.e. they got rich from selling America out. Notice that I'm not using the word jobs here, I'm using the word production, because we aren't just talking about jobs. Even if these executives laid-off the same number of workers and replaced them with robots and automated systems here in America that would still be better than off-shoring. Yes, given the current economic system it would still have led to growing income inequality, but by off-shoring American production to foreign countries these executives have not only eliminated certain jobs (arguably others are also created) but they have also reduced American control over production of the goods and services used by Americans, and not only have we lost some degree of control, but we have also lost capital and not only have we lost capital, but we have also lost the engine for further capital development.
Growth in executive compensation due to off-shoring is essentially the product of the elimination of domestic workers and replicating them with foreign workers at a lower cost, with a portion of the difference being awarded to executives. With American unions in decline, the ability of workers to fight such moves or to bargain for better terms of release has been diminished. Even if one argues that off-shoring creates new economic opportunities in America, this still doesn't justify the compensation going to executives for the practice, because those executives aren't the ones creating the new jobs, their compensation bonuses come from the elimination of existing ones, not from the creation of new ones.
But off-shoring and the decline of unions don't account for everything, there are other major factors. Over the past 30 years executive compensation has changed dramatically, not just in the amounts of the compensation, but also the forms of it. During the 1980s and 1990s executive salaries increased dramatically relative to average workers, but other forms of compensation increased even more, such as awards of stock, severance packages, cash bonuses, interest free loans, use of corporate property, and short-term incentive bonuses.
Unlike compensation for other employees, executive compensation is often governed by a board of directors, and that board of directors is typically elected or appointed by share holders. But who are the shareholders?
Well, since the end of World War II the portion of US stocks held by individual investors has been in decline, crossing the 50% mark in the 1980s. While the majority of stock was held by individuals from the end of World War II until the 1980s, today individuals directly hold only about 30% of US stock, the rest is held by institutional investors.
So what does this have to do with anything? Institutional investors have different interests than individual investors and different perspectives. Over the past three decades boards of directors have become more homogenous as well, with more of the same people sitting on boards of different companies. Institutional investors are now the primary electors and appointers of boards of directors, and these investors are themselves wealthy. They are more likely to support high compensation packages for executives and less likely to take an interest in compensation for the average worker.
But there is even more to it than just that as well.
Executive compensation is also a form of protection against takeovers. In effect, executives are paid in part simply not to destroy the company, i.e. they are paid not to undermine the interests of the shareholders by engineering undervalued corporate takeovers and things of that nature. In addition, executives have significant control over share price by the manner in which they report information. So executives are paid highly in part in order to provide a disincentive to underreport information leading to lower stock prices, which makes takeovers easier and less costly.
Now, in the 1980s and 1990s continuing deregulation of industries as well as other factors made the environment ripe for takeovers. As a result the institutional shareholders appointed executive compensation boards who worked in their interest to highly compensate executives as a means of defense against hostile and undervalued takeovers. As institutional shareholders became more powerful, it led to an arms race, in which the threat of takeovers grew and the defense against them grew as well.
Giving executives extremely high pay and golden parachutes (extremely rich termination packages) was seen as form of insurance against hostile and undervalued takeovers. The decline of unions also paved the way in this regard as well, because union contracts also form as a protection against hostile takeovers, but as unions declined this opened the door for more takeovers, leading to the further pumping up of executive compensation.
So in this sense, executive compensation has very little to do with reward for performance, it is simply a form of insurance, the price of which got ever higher with deregulation and deunionization. But again that still isn't the whole story, there was another aspect to this as well , which was the ever decreasing interest rate.
With the Federal Reserve continuously lowering the interest rates this also contributed to the building of leverage needed to engage in corporate buyouts and consolidation. So what happened over the past three decades was a snowball effect, in which concentration of capital led to the further concentration of capital, and as an insurance against being undermined by the executives in charge of all of this capital, the institutional shareholders grossly overpaid them as a means of buying their loyalty.
There were side effects of this executive compensation as well though, most of which the institutional investors were happy with. High executive compensation and short-term bonuses, which have grown tremendously over the past three decades, are engineered as a means to prevent executives from undermining the company by causing the share price to be undervalued, making the company ripe for a takeover. The converse is true as well, however, that this type of compensation leads to inflation of stock prices due to overly optimistic reporting, as we should have all learned by the events of the past 10 years since the initial dot.com bust of 2000 and the several busts and scandals that have emerged since. But the investors didn't mind inflated stock prices, especially since investment institutions typically work on a commission basis and thus get paid more the higher the prices go. Unfortunately, I can't offer much on the credentials of the writer, except that he writes the linked blog and is an author of several books on religion, economics and history.
He doesn't offer anything in the way of evidence or point to any specific regulation but it seems like a plausible place to start, specifically: do corporate takeovers happen more frequently than prior to the 1980s? If so, did any particular deregulation measures lead to that?
Also, this isn't specifically a Reagan indictment. As I understand, Bill Clinton picked up the deregulation ball and ran hard with it, too. And I'm also pretty sure it started before Reagan.
Believe it or not there doesn't seem to be a lot of easily accessible layman's-terms info to be found on the topic.
Best I can do for now.
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| 329 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 11:51
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after doing some quick research there is slight flaw in his theory, while the the mid 80's showed an uptick in takeovers it was minor compared to that of late 60's, early 70's or the late 90's.
While he makes an interesting hypothesis, it should be easy to show, if corporate pay is thought of as insurance then pay should be correlated with risk, which I kind of doubt it is.
I think it is more a symptom of the traditional corporate structure trying(unsuccessfully) to adapt to globalization. secondly most of these type analysis take an American centrist prospective and what most people don't know is that in general wealth at certain point is zero sum game and while America may be declining the rest of the world is doing better.
Finally, if you truly think that CEO pay is too high then all you need to do is create a sabermetric for CEO's which will undoubtedly show that I could take "best" ceo and "worst" ceo and find only marginal differences and to top that off you could probably train anyone to be "ordinary" ceo.
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| 330 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 12:32
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to top that off you could probably train anyone to be "ordinary" ceo.
I completely agree. And I think if people thought about it, they wouldn't begrudge those excellent CEO's their salary, but the fact that the crappy ones seem to be getting gobs of money for no real performance at all. People seem to get pissed when a company loses a lot of money, lays off people, then pays out millions of dollars in "bonuses" to the top management team members.
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| 331 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 12:35
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One by one, Mitt's strong suits are turning out to have problems. Remember when he took time off to run the SLC Winter Olympics? Hailed as a success (mostly because they didn't lose their shirts financially like other Olympics), a closer look will punch some holes in that armor:
He outsourced the Olympic uniforms to Burma, of all places.
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| 332 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 13:17
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First take on all that:
1) I don't see that information suggesting any obvious regulations.
2) Europe and even more so the rest of the world pays far less to their CEO's so how is this a result of globalization?
3) I can't even imagine regulation that would prevent expanding operations in foreign countries or reducing operations in this one.
4) I rather think deregulation in the Clinton admin was a function of the Gingrich congress, not the administration. I don't see what lever Clinton had. Vetoes? Regulation as department guidelines not involving congress?
5) Are we really sure institutional investors increased as a percentage? Maybe because of the popularity of mutual funds?
6) Consolidation of industry leaders into a smaller and smaller number of international conglomerates is huge and inter-related boards of directors is huge. But escalating top exec pay still doesn't benefit the moneyed owners. I still don't see exactly how they are being cut-out of the decision process.
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| 333 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 13:24
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I rather think deregulation in the Clinton admin was a function of the Gingrich congress
Typically, those are entirely within the executive branch. Given Clinton's efforts in the National Partnership for Reinventing Government, such deregulation would be entirely in keeping with what he was doing anyway.
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| 334 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 13:43
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You think I can't find regulations written by congress? I think it's fair to say there is a constant back and forth between congress and the administration for degree of control over that lever.
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| 335 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 13:48
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I don't think you understand that Congress writes the laws, but the Executive Branch writes the process of how those laws will be enforced.
It is the difference between mandating clean water, and setting up a process of licensing, monitoring, testing, applications, and approvals.
When people think of "deregulation" they aren't talking about the laws so much as the process to prove they are following the rules.
It is the difference between the Clean Water Act and the EPA.
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| 337 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 17:40
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To think of a blindingly obvious example, Obama could in theory overstretch his authority and order his regulators to start fining away any executive's income over $250K a year, however he really doesn't have that authority and congress would surely rein him in on that. If congress were to pass that regulation, executives would be screwed.
Because we know Roberts would cave and 4 liberal rubber stamps would stamp.
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| 338 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 17:45
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Good point about Dodd-Frank. However, don't you think the SEC procedures to implement and follow Dodd-Frank are many, many times the length of the actual law?
I don't think there is a need to talk about the content of the article you linked to, except to point out that on of the "worst" regulations on the list is that it didn't address anything about housing. WTF? In an article titles "The 5 Best and 5 Worst Regulations in Dodd-Frank" you'd think they'd list stuff that is actually in the law rather than copping out with the last one about something that isn't.
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| 340 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 19:30
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The FTC procedures re Dodd-Frank, havent even all been compiled or written as yet.
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| 341 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 19:44
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#339: Sununu kinda walks back his comment.
I'm not sure this is much better, given that he used it as a pivot to talk about a now-discredited and taken-out-of-context quote that the president is "attacking success."
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| 342 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 00:13
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NRO now joins the conservative chorus for Romney to release more of his tax forms.
This has all the makings of a non-scandal drawn out by a candidate who should have seen all this coming. The quicker he releases them, the quicker he'll get to the end of the manufactured crisis that will be happening anyway.
Of course, if his forms reveal something like no taxes paid because of (legal) accounting or tax maneuvering, this is certainly going to help Obama.
Romney is in a no-win situation.
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| 343 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 06:03
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He shouldn't. He's a businessman. Everything he does or doesn't do is anathema to Obama and his hardcore and a trigger to hysteria.
Anyone who would ever vote for him doesn't care that he did business here and there.
Releasing would just give Obama's lapdogs endless opportunities to shout fire news cycle after news cycle over one non-issue after another until people wondered if there was actually fire under all that blown smoke.
Let Obama waste time not defending his own indefensible record of non-recovery until it's too late to even try.
Let the news media ask the question "where are your papers" over and over until people are bored with the question.
Learn from Clinton and Obama. You can face down anything by sticking to your guns until the end. Don't let yourself be bullied.
Of course, not having the media in his back pocket like Clinton and Obama, he won't take this advice thinking it won't work without a complicit media.
I seem to remember Reagan facing down the media over the air traffic controllers just fine by sticking to his guns until the end.
I seem to remember Reagan facing down the media over european missile deployment just fine by sticking to his guns until the end.
I seem to remember Reagan facing down the media over the phrase 'evil empire' just fine by sticking to his guns until the end.
Never back down from a bully. It only encourages them.
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| 344 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 10:02
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Anyone who would ever vote for him doesn't care that he did business here and there
Polling is showing otherwise. In the battleground states where Obama is aiming his Bain ads, Romney is steadily losing ground, specifically among the white lower class male population which is the last stronghold of the GOP.
If those asking for him to release the tax forms as "bullies" then many people you've quoted admirably here are bullies.
Keep in mind: It was your party who nominated this guy. What is the chance that Mitt Romney sticks to his guns about anything?
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| 346 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 11:20
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I would say that this stance is when Limbaugh jumped the shark, but I'm pretty sure that happened awhile ago.
According to wikipedia Bane was created in 1993 and was in the 1997 Batman and Robin movie. But, it seems completely rational that the timing of this movie (in production for years now) was set up to make Romney look bad. SMH.
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| 347 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 11:28
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I wonder what other versions of Batman the Democrats made and kept in the can, in case someone else got the nomination...
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| 348 | Tree
ID: 126471810 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 11:52
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i'm pretty sure there was another fictional character movie made in the last few years that Limbaugh or Coulter or one of those other screeching weasels also said was some sort of Dem propaganda.
i know they said that about Clint Eastwood's Super Bowl car commercial.
#Conservativesgraspingatstraws
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| 351 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 14:19
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What is the chance that Mitt Romney sticks to his guns about anything?
Lol! So true, but that even applies to 'sticking to guns'. For all you know he'll cheer his base and become the guy who sticks to his guns just to spite you.
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| 352 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 14:24
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For the record I have to say I have no confidence he'll stick to his guns and seek to repeal Obamacare unless conservatives literally grab his legs and hold his nose to the grindstone...
...but amazingly he at least hasn't waffled even after he secured the nomination. That alone is shocking fortitude coming from him. If pressed I could come up with other examples where he has actually remembered his position for more than a year. Stout character seems to be rubbing off on him, since associating with conservatives for the first time in his life.
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| 353 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 15:05
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Too good not to post:
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| 354 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 15:08
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Man, it's as if Michael Dukakis has taught us nothing.
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| 355 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 15:12
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Sure. We learned "stay out of the goddam tank."
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| 356 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 15:16
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Photoshopped from this image.
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| 357 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 15:24
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Maybe these desperate Dems can find a picture of Obama's arm around Tim Geitner and photoshop Mitt into that one.

Wouldn't that look all cozy and tight with the corrupt evil 1% and their swiss bank accounts and tricky financial wizardry?
Get out yer photoshop and get busy, PD.
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| 358 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 18:27
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Obama will never be associated with the 1%. Sorry--you're stuck with a candidate from the 1% and that is that.
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| 359 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 18:47
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Obama will never be associated with the 1%.
Not in the legacy media. Fortunately the legacy media is now increasingly irrelevant.
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| 360 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 18:57
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In the echo chamber, you are exactly right.
And that is the only place Mitt gets his news, too, which is why he will soon be unveiling a strategy of neo-birther, I hear (seriously). Also (right up your alley) questioning Obama's Americanism because of his pot smoking past.
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| 361 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 21:32
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Romney's Spanish language ad, translated:
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| 369 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 16:00
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Do people "make" it because they have luck or connections or do they "make" it because they are smarter or work harder?
When I heard Obama's speech in Virginia (I think) it sounded like he was saying that people only make it through luck and/or connections. While the speech was mostly written to pander to the audience it was unnerving to think that he even remotely believes it.
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| 370 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 16:03
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I think your use of the word "only", is misplaced Frick. It takes hard work and dedication, but it also takes luck. It takes having been lucky enough to have had the right sense of purpose instilled in yu, lucky enough to have been born American and not to an Amazonian tribe, lucky enough to have not lost in the genetic lottery and be suffering from any of 10,000 debilitating mental/physical conditions. OTH, one can make it based solely on luck, while one can not make it based solely on effort.
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| 372 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 16:21
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luck and/or connections
Come on. There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -- look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.
The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.
So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for President -- because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together. (Applause.)
So all these issues go back to that first campaign that I talked about, because everything has to do with how do we help middle-class families, working people, strivers, doers -- how do we help them succeed? How do we make sure that their hard work pays off? That’s what I've been thinking about the entire time I've been President.
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| 386 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Jul 24, 2012, 14:16
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| 389 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 13:46
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| 390 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 17:54
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With Mitt Romney as the head of the GOP for the next few months, my guess is that the ever-faithful conservative media will be doing much more of this.
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| 391 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 18:03
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I'm just curious, do you libs want the British insulted or don't you?
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| 392 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 18:04
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roflmao...spin it Boldy...spin it boy
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| 393 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 18:06
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Heh. We want not to be embarrassed by a major political presidential candidate going overseas. Is that too much to ask?
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| 395 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 22:43
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HMS ROMNEY
Launched in 1760, Romney spent most of her early career in North American waters, serving on the Newfoundland station, often as the flagship of the commander-in-chief there. She became caught up in the tensions leading up to the outbreak of the American Revolution when she was sent to support the Boston commissioners enforcing the Townshend Acts in 1768. Her actions involved impressing local sailors, confiscating a vessel belonging to John Hancock and providing a refuge for the unpopular commissioners when rioting broke out.
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| 397 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 11:03
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Some Tea Party friends of mine are blown away by this. They totally had Eastwood pegged as a liberal after his GM Super Bowl ad (which wasn't liberal but rather was a pro-America ad for a company the federal government invested in).
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| 398 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 20:13
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Liz Trotta explains the double-standard between the media's coverage of Mrs. Romney and Jackie O.
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| 399 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 21:16
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Most unusual moment in Mormon political history. It had never occurred to me like this but Obama provided the one moment in history when the opponent cancelled out the anti-polygamy vote, to whatever extent there might be one. [- Discovery News]
While it may seem far-fetched that it could become an election issue these days, who would have guessed that a senator could get away with creating a month long scandal by insisting "'some guy called me on the phone and dumped some dirt on Romney over the transom'. No I can't prove a word of it."
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| 400 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 00:06
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He never said he could prove a word of it. But he is certainly doubling down on it. My guess is that he's got a solid source who required protection.
Of course, Romney could easily dispel all this and make Reid looks absolutely stupid in the process. But don't hold your breath that Mitt has the same values his dad had.
All of which has nothing to do with Obama.
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| 401 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 05:29
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"Hey, Demint. I just heard there's something wrong with Obama's BC."
Yeah, the media will jump right on that.
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| 402 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 12:45
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Obama has produced the long form BC.So, let Romney produce his taxes.
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| 403 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 12:52
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I think the real problem we would find is the question Mitt is asking is "What Taxes?, (Chortle, Chortle)". I have to believe at least one year in the last 5 he paid minimal or negative taxes.
Two sets of rules, right? He's rich, he doesn't have to play by the little people's rules.
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| 404 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 13:44
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exactly the claim levelled.
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| 405 | DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 14:45
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One would almost assume that in '08 (or '09, whichever), he would have had a big pile of investment losses like the rest of the world, and would have paid no taxes as a result. And I don't think that would bother most people that would see that information -- and the ones that would actually hate on him for it were never voting for him anyway.
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| 406 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 15:03
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I am not sure Romney has gone without paying taxes at all, but I do believe he spent large portions of his pre-Presidential campaign years using his immense resources to create tax advantages for himself that are unreachable to most Americans. It's hard to come off as credible in tax matters when you've spent years avoiding them. Romney won't release his tax forms because they are too damning.
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| 407 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 15:07
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I think that's exactly right, Razor. His tax returns will reveal, in clear detail, what an immensely wealthy man he is and what lengths he has gone through to keep his wealth.
Completely legal, I'm 100% sure.
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| 408 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 15:51
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I would hold little doubt, that anything he did in the way of "tax avoidance" (as opposed to tax evasion), was done entirely legally. Ha HAS been running for the WH, for 8 years now. One would have to believe, no one can be so egotistical (except perhaps Gingrich), as to think he could seek that office, while violating law.
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| 411 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 15:45
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It took us three and a half decades talking you liberals in to reforming welfare, finally your hero Clinton agrees to it, and now you look us in the eye, blinking at us, "Why would we want reformed welfare?" "Let's go back to the great society.""Welfare checks for everybody."
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| 412 | DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 15:53
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| 413 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 15:54
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Exactly. It would be useful, when posting on the point, to actually read what the point is. It is no longer acceptable to simply respond to the title.
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| 414 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 18:19
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Nuns take issue with Romney
Americans don’t like being confronted with poverty. By and large, we don’t want the reminder of the reality that many of us are only be two or three paychecks away. Instead, we’d rather empathize with the wealthy. We want to relish our dreams not face our nightmares. That is the reason that political talk of poverty falls relatively flat, even among Democrats.
Democrats prefer to talk about the middle class and who can blame them? Even during one of the nation’s worst recession, it’s still a larger voting block than the poor. The middle class story is one of hope. The story of the poor is one of failure, not personal failure, as the objectivists would like to believe, but our failure as a society. There is something wrong with us, as a people, if we allow our fellow citizens to die for lack of life’s basic necessities. If there’s a God, she would certainly be a harsher judge of the fact that we allow children to suffer starvation or preventable illnesses than she would judge people for their sexuality.
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| 415 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 18:31
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Yeah, just look at the pattern of conduct. Huge numbers of employers in Pelosi's dictrict [and presumably campaign contributors] got waivers from ACA requirements. We are to believe Sebelius will act any differently towards Obama's favorite constituency, namely those on welfare? Especially when they are already talking waivers and he isn't even safely re-elected?
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| 416 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 18:54
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The specific waivers in #410 are in the states of Nevada and Utah, and were requested by the Republican governors of those states. It sounds like you are still lacking the background information on the issue being discussed.
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| 417 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 20:06
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It sounds to me like you are taken in by banal meaningless reassurances as usual. Just as you were countless times with ACA.
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| 418 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 20:11
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And besides, what Obama is proposing to do is patently illegal. - Heritage Legal Memo
He does not have the necessary legal latitude to overturn specifically worded requirements of the law.
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| 419 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 20:27
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I guess when you think he is doing something he isn't, you make unforced errors like #417.
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| 420 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 20:28
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I'm awaiting my notice to serve on a death panel. Did you get yours yet?
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| 421 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 20:30
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If you think it's a joke, give me your QLY's.
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| 422 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 20:46
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Of course it is a joke. The "death panels" always were. What you refer to as "death panels" is the process of finding what medicines, procedures, and so on, that actually work and encouraging their use. It is about science getting better.
Now, I suppose, you'll post some anecdote about how a nameless panel killed a guy for not approving something. Meanwhile, by virtually every measure, that country will have better health care (infant mortality, longevity, etc).
For a "pro-life" person you seem rather fuzzy on the details.
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| 423 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 20:51
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No the death panels are all about sucking up people's healthcare dollars and then denying them coverage when they really need it. Like when their QLY's decline.
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| 424 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 21:10
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re 423,...No Boldwin, thats an HMO. You are confused.
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| 425 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 22:04
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Obama weakens welfare reform (again): Here are some quick initial reactions to the administration’s apparent surprising (and possibly illegal) attempt to grant waivers of the work requirements written, after great effort, into the 1996 welfare reform law... --- “a great deal of effort was put into defining what qualified as work, and making sure that work actually meant work and not the various BS activities (including BS training activities) the welfare bureaucracies often preferred to substitute for work.” - Mickey Kaus of uber-liberal Kausfiles fame Just insert that phrase " BS training activities the welfare bureaucracies often preferred to substitute for work" where you read the phrase "a better job connecting people to work" and ask yourself if that isn't exactly what Obama/Sebelius isn't planning on doing.Univeristy of Maryland’s Douglas Besharov:
“The domestic policy staff doesn’t believe in ‘work first’; they want education, job training, and support. If they had their way, they would have gotten those provisions in the [welfare reform] reauthorization. Now they see they will not control the House and it will be impossible to get through their policies.” …
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| 426 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 22:06
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What does he get for this move...Who supports it? Well, community colleges surely support it–they’re a powerful lobby, and they’ll get lots of subsidized students-on-welfare. Unions support it–they want public aid recipients to stay on the dole, or in training, lest they join the work force and compete for jobs. They especially don’t want them performing public “workfare” tasks that well-compensated, pensioned AFSCME workers might be performing. - Kausfiles
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| 427 | Boldwin
ID: 327262311 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 14:23
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Looking for the 'real' Mitt Romney gets a little easier. I'm willing to sic this guy on my problems.
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| 428 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 15:28
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I read somewhere that he has Zero core values and principles. He just wants to be the engineer on the train. Any train.
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| 429 | Boldwin
ID: 327262311 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 15:33
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I didn't impute any hard and fast principles. The man does roll up his sleeves and rescue lost causes.
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| 430 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 15:42
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I like that guy, too. Unfortunately, Mitt has changed his stripes so often it is really hard to tell what he will stand for, when it comes to the difficult decisions that a President needs to make.
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| 431 | Boldwin
ID: 327262311 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 15:46
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He stands for "git'n 'er done" any way possible.
Which unfortunately in politics, means 'say anything', just as long as it gets you elected. But then it also speaks to succeeding, so there's that at least.
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| 432 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 15:50
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"Success" can be measured many ways. Obama succeeded in getting Obamacare passed--are you going to give him praise for his gumption, too?
:)
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| 438 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 19:54
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Romney ineligible to appear n the ballot in Washington State?
Nominations for president and vice-president by major political parties are conducted at each party’s national convention. Immediately following the convention, each party must submit a certificate of nomination and list of electors to the secretary of state in order to place the nominees on the presidential general election ballot.
...
“Major political party” means a political party of which at least one nominee for president, vice president, United States senator, or a statewide office received at least five percent of the total vote cast at the last preceding state general election in an even-numbered year. A political party qualifying as a major political party under this section retains such status until the next even-year election at which a candidate of that party does not achieve at least five percent of the vote for one of the previously specified offices. If none of these offices appear on the ballot in an even-year general election, the major party retains its status as a major party through that election. However, a political party of which no nominee received at least ten percent of the total vote cast may forgo its status as a major political party by filing with the secretary of state an appropriate party rule within sixty days of attaining major party status under this section, or within fifteen days of June 10, 2004, whichever is later.
The problem? The last statewide election in Washington, the Rep nominee didnt undergo a primary process and THAT, fails then to meet the definition (by law) for a "major political party". Candidates from non major parties, had to be submitted 3 weeks ago.
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| 440 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 20:33
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Good. And now I'll update my FB page!
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| 441 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 20:49
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I'm guessing that the bipartisan election committee will meet and allow Romney to be on the ballot. Flip the tables, can you imagine the outrage you would feel if a state said something similar about Obama?
I can't remember who the candidate was, but in the Indiana primary one of the up and coming candidates didn't file in Indiana in time. They had to collect signatures, I think 500, and appeal to the election commission. They then put the candidate on the primary ballot. I can't imagine anything else happening in Washington.
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| 442 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 21:20
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Oh I couldnt imagine it either. I ran across the article, and found it amusing. :)
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| 443 | Mith
ID: 517222317 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 21:41
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I hadn't seen Addicting Info prior to yesterday. So far I'm not a fan.
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| 444 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 00:58
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" Romney makes Birther joke on campaign trail...
yippee...
he's looking more and more like a crack pot every day."
He was hardly acknowledging the birther movement tree. If you want to make romney out to be a crackpot this is definitely not the tree to bark up. Seriously read the comment and the context in which it was made. It was a small, harmless comment, nothing more. And he has flat out said multiple times he does NOT believe in the birther movement.
You don't have to like romney but trying to make him out to be a crackpot (your words) over this comment is akin to boldwin calling obama a commie or marxist.
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| 445 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 01:25
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Wasn't a big deal--very similar, in fact, to Biden's "chains" comment (in that both were throwaway lines that were more pandering attempts than anything else, and not strongly stressed ones in any case).
Just because Romney is desperate to redefine himself to the GOP base doesn't mean he's suddenly a birther.
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| 446 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 08:38
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Just because Romney is desperate to redefine himself to the GOP base doesn't mean he's suddenly a birther.
i don't believe he's a birther.
but i also don't believe it's a throwaway line - it's a nod to the birther movement, and in their eyes, further legitimizes their claims.
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| 447 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 29542105 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 09:08
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"very similar,in fact to Biden's Chains comment" i also dont believe its a throwaway line-its a nod to the racial movement, and in their eyes, further legitimizes their claims.
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| 448 | Boldwin
ID: 157332421 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 10:43
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It's also a sign that he isn't gonna pull his punches like McCain did all the time.
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| 449 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 10:58
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McCain had no punches to throw. Once he picked Palin, he had no "inexperience" complaint to throw at Obama.
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| 450 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 11:24
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Romney's comments don't make him a birther, nor do they further legitimize their claims, any more than Obama making mention of Romney's taxes makes Romney a tax cheat. If Obama said, "No one has asked me for my tax returns for the past 10 years," does that further legitimize the thought that Romney has done something illegal?
In both cases, there are government entities which are charged with confirming birth records and tax returns, and in neither case is there any indication that there is legitimacy to claims of law breaking. How in the world would an unborn child have anything to do with the question of his birth?
At the same time, a wealthy person like Romney doesn't sit down at the end of the year and figure out his taxes. He has a company charged with doing his taxes, and their job is to find every legal way to have their client's tax liability as small as possible. If you want to talk about loopholes in the tax codes that allows the wealthy to pay a smaller percentage of their income than the non-wealthy, then that's a completely different issue.
We've been treated to the humorous notion that the Clintons had Boldwin's tax return audited, but does anyone think that the IRS wouldn't go over Romney's returns with a fine tooth comb?
There seems to be a double standard as to what's acceptable rhetoric. If you're aghast at Romney's off-handed remark about being born and raised in Michigan, but nod in agreement at Obama SuperPac ads that paint Romney as somehow un-American for taking advantage of every legitimate and legal offshore tax haven his battery of tax professionals and attorneys provide, then the idea of what constitutes legitimate claims isn't in play.
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| 451 | Boldwin
ID: 157332421 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 11:29
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there are government entities which are charged with confirming birth records
There are also government entities charged with ensuring we have a border. Which doesn't mean it gets done.
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| 452 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 11:31
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Which doesn't mean that the birth records or tax laws are not being enforced either.
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| 453 | Boldwin
ID: 157332421 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 11:39
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We know that the borders are swiss cheese and that we've been ignored by everyone whose job it is to properly vet that obama meets the natural citizen definition.
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| 454 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 11:41
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We know that such a statement is misplaced here, and should be fleshed out in the appropriate thread. Meanwhile, you are certainly welcome to respond to PV's point here more directly.
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| 455 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Aug 26, 2012, 23:06
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It would violate my religious beliefs to release y tax returns
“Our church doesn’t publish how much people have given. This is done entirely privately. One of the downsides of releasing one’s financial information is that this is now all public, but we had never intended our contributions to be known. It’s a very personal thing between ourselves and our commitment to our God and to our church.”
Cept Huntsman (a Mormon) has called on you to release them and your Dad released 12 years of his.
Shame on you for using your church to hide behind.
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| 458 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 19:06
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coal workers required to attend Romney event, without pay
Yes, we were in fact told that the Romney event was mandatory and would be without pay, that the hours spent there would need to be made up my non-salaried employees outside of regular working hours, with the only other option being to take a pay cut for the equivalent time,” the employees told Blomquist. “Yes, letters have gone around with lists of names of employees who have not attended or donated to political events.”
Sure, he'll put you back to work. Doesn't mean that work will have a paycheck attached to it however.
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| 459 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 22:25
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I saw that earlier. Love this Orwellian line:
"We had managers that communicated to our work force that the attendance at the Romney event was mandatory, but no one was forced to attend the event."
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| 460 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 22:29
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AND, they had to make up the lost time. *smdh*
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| 461 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 29, 2012, 10:07
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Re 457: I think that is speech he should want you to hear, since basically it says look here in china you have work force begging to work if only at the chance to get paid. Maybe if they knew the realities of real world they would knew how good they have it.
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| 462 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Aug 29, 2012, 10:57
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Additionally in #457, the comment
Mitt Romney wants to apply the same ideas to fix the American economy
is just over-the-top fear-mongering.
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| 464 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:25
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Romney to fight medical marijuana "tooth and nail":
town hall answer about medical marijuana
Apparently toking because of your cataracts will lead to heroin. Or something. I'm surprised he didn't say "gosh" somewhere in his answer, but it is only a 59 second clip.
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| 465 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:27
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wont matter. If Romney wins and does away with PPACA, the poor will just die from lack of food and medical care anyway.
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| 466 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:31
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"lack of food and medical care anyway." like they did before PPACA?
Hyperbole doesn't suit you too well Sarge.
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| 467 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:34
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It should be noted that Romney would simply continue the same badly-conceived policies that the Obama Administration is pursuing on medical marijuana.
This should be a solidly conservative issue, where an overbearing police state jails citizens for engaging in a pursuit intended to help alleviate pain and suffering.
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| 468 | Seattle Zen
ID: 47630913 Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 16:50
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The "Real Mitt Romney" is a douchbag. Fight medical marijuana "tooth and nail"? Seriously? Will teeth and nails be new line items in your trillion and half dollar defense budgets, right next to the wars in Afghanistan and Iran?
Please let the door hit your square in the ass on the way out...
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| 469 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 20:04
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SZ, haven't you picked up by now that Romney says a lot of things he doesn't really mean in order to appease the snarling minions screaming, "You're not conservative enough!!"?
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| 471 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 13:00
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Not sure how reliable that source is since to says "Quran-burning ‘pastor’ Terry Jones down in Florida" was the reason for the protests.
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| 472 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 13:03
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Romney is, however, responsible for his own words:
"It’s disgraceful that the Obama administration’s first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks."
This is a lie. Plain and simple. And it says that the Administration would sympathize with the killers of American diplomats overseas. Craven is a mild description of what Romney is doing here.
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| 473 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 13:19
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I will assume you are correct but how should I know a posting of an article from a site that clearly has it facts wrong is accurate in saying that Romney is lying.
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| 474 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 13:30
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What facts are in dispute?
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| 475 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 14:24
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The film that incited the attack was produced by an Israeli American and drawn attention to by an Egyptian American Copt who wrote about it in an Arabic blog post and English email newsletter. In one or both, he also included an update about Jones, which seems to be what led to the confusion about who produced the film.
The Copt is an associate of Jones who, following the attacks yesterday, announced he would be screening the film.
Link.
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| 476 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 14:08
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Riots still occurring. Apparently the movie presents Mohammed as a child molester, among other things. Imagine how a film about Jesus like that would be received here?
Meanwhile, Romney appears to be saying, simultaneously, that Washington DC the government is too far away to be trusted in places like Texas, or West Virginia, or Utah. But Obama's failure stems from not being able to perfectly manipulate actions to our advantage in Afghanistan, Libya, and Egypt.
Apparently Romney will head a government where it is virtually invisible in asserting things to its own citizens (hoping, apparently, that others will be convinced to take up the slack) and persistently in the face of foreign citizens so as not to project "provocative weakness."
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| 477 | Tree
ID: 3825149 Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 14:39
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The film that incited the attack was produced by an Israeli American
no, it wasn't. Nothing Israeli or Jewish about the producer. let's not spread that bit of false propaganda please? we have enough problems as it is.
He's an Egyptian-born Coptic Christian.
(several sources from the footnotes of his Wikipedia page...)
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| 478 | Mith
ID: 437192317 Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 15:14
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Yeah, it came out yesterday that bacile was an alias. I haven't seen the identiy of the producer/director confirmed yet, though all signs point to the Copt that AP interviewed despite his claims that he isn't the guy.
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| 479 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 15:20
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we dont know for a fact yet, who or what he/she is.
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| 480 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 15:28
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These protests have nothing to do with America flying drones over half the Muslim countries, how would the US react if Egyptians where randomly killing off right wing Christian leaders. Now imagine your country is powerless to seek justice for these killings.
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| 481 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 16:35
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Romney ends his campaign
,,,Romney responded, ”I’m kind of a Snooki fan....
Nuff said.
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| 482 | nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616 Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 17:47
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I don't really understand your point Boikin. (post 480)
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| 483 | Boldwin
ID: 12814149 Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 18:12
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You really have to ask yourself where is the love for his fellow copts, who face a wave of genocide [with or without this movie/video].
I am certainly not ever going to side with those weak-kneed fools who would be willing to give up freedom of speech to appease foreign fanatics.
I do think there is reason to question the amount of sexual abuses allowed by muslim men. Rape is encouraged as a conversion tool. It's not the men's duty to be chaste, it's the woman's duty to hide, trial marriage, easy divorce, virtual impossibility of prosecuting rape. It does make you wonder about what is at the base of all those rules. Fair question
There is a difference however between raising an eyebrow and a question...and drawing neon labels.
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| 484 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 21:00
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re 482: The protests have nothing to do with the film at all, they are just rallying points or excuses, if you wish. The film has about as much to do with the protests as the stamp act had do do with the revolutionary war.
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| 485 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 00:43
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I don't think it is "nothing." Some are obviously using this as an excuse, but the buildup was very real.
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| 486 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 29542105 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 07:14
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Clinton and Obama are using it as an excuse. They got caught with their pants down.
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| 487 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 07:42
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$1,500,000,000,000 amount Obama overspends per year.
$1,500,000,000,000 / 365 = $4,109,589,041 amount Obama overspends per day.
$4,109,589,041 / 1440 minutes per day = $2,853,881 amount Obama overspends per minute.
$2.85 million dollars per minute that he doesn't have. Minute after minute after minute, since the day he arrived. That's more money than most people see in their lifetime. Obama runs up that amount of debt in one minute. Every minute. Tick, tick, tick........
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| 489 | Mith
ID: 437192317 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 09:34
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amount Obama overspends per year.
Why was that posted in this thread?
Anyway, this phrasing sounds like an implication that this is the amount the president chooses to spend every year.
I'm pretty sure you understand the difference between mandatory and discretionary spending, yes? Importantly, that the overwhelming majority of mandatory spending is on promises that were made before the current president took office and by law must be paid.
Everyone agrees we need entitlement reform. Less talked about is the fact that we need to find a way to do it that is politically tenable, which is the elusive part of the trick.
As far as discretionary spending is concerned, Obama hasn't increased the number nearly as much as a lot of people seem to think.

But I do agree that discretionary spending, which the president has far greater control of, should also be trimmed.
Fortunately, in 2011, Obama signed the bipartisan Budget Control Act of 2011, which will mandate $900 billion in across the board spending cuts over then next 10 years, which comes out to 7.5% of the current level of discretionary spending per year.
The biggest cuts will come out of military spending, which makes sense considering it makes up over half of all of our discretionary spending.

Unfortunately, military spending is held hostage by the political opposition, which attacks the president for his committment to military spending cuts. This includes their presidential nominee, who has vowed to increase military spending by $2.1 trillion over the next decade.
And there we go, the discussion now apropriately fits the thre thread topic.
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| 490 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 29542105 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 10:44
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Since i last posted approximately 180 minutes have gone by. Thats 513 million dollars the president has over spent. I wonder how many big gulps that could have bought 2 days ago in NYC.
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| 491 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 11:02
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as the valid content of posts 489, is wantonly ignored.
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| 492 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 11:26
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I just loooooooove how it's as if he's personally at Wal-Mart splurging on Magic Bullets and poorly manufactured slacks.
Let the derangement and hate flow within you, guys!
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| 493 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 11:51
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It's the revenue, not the spending.
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| 494 | nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 11:52
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At the risk of sounding like I am defending Obama. (Who I didn't vote for, will not vote for this time, nor did I vote for McCain nor will I vote for Romney)
1) A large portion was built into the budget before he took office.
2) The President doesn't "overspend" the budget is passed by both houses of congress and he signs it into law. We currently have a Republican House. So if the money cannot be spent without the house first writing the law, how is it B7 that "Obama" over spent?
3) He inherited 2 very expensive wars.
Or is it another case of not letting the facts get in the way?
From Wikipedia...Budget committees set spending limits for the House and Senate committees and for Appropriations subcommittees, which then approve individual appropriations bills to allocate funding to various federal programs. After Congress approves an appropriations bill, it is sent to the President, who may sign it into law, or may veto it.
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| 495 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 12:11
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When taxes are at all-time historic lows and revenue is running 1-3% below what is needed for just the basics, even in good times, unless you are willing to slash the military to the bone or toss elderly on the street or out of their hospital beds, you are going to "overspend."
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| 496 | nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 18:01
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Baldwin post 483
I am still trying to figure out if the absurdity of posts like these are based on ignorance, or bigotry, or a combination of both.
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| 497 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 18:13
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Indeed NC:
I am certainly not ever going to side with those weak-kneed fools who would be willing to give up freedom of speech to appease foreign fanatics.
And if an Iranian film maker, were to release a movie depicting Jesus Christ as an alcoholic, homosexual child molester? How would you react B? Do you deny, that there exists a rabid fringe on the right, who would be out burning mosques and throwing molotov cocktails at Muslims in this country, that very same day? Would you REALLY defend that film makers "right to free speech"? REALLY?
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| 498 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 18:19
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Also Boldwin, and any others who claim "freedom of speech" is a blanket endorsement to say what you know full well will incite riots; run through an airport at a full sprint and yell "BOMB!". Then, tell me all about your free speech" rights.
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| 499 | Boldwin
ID: 248561516 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 18:50
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We support liberal's freedom of speech all the time. Ask any number of outrageous 'artists' funded by the NEA. Defunding them is not the same as censoring them.
I suffer more outrageous speech than anyone else here and I rarely if ever call for censorship even when it would be asking for equal treatment.
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| 500 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 18:53
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<---notices, you did not answer the question.
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| 501 | Boldwin
ID: 408191611 Sun, Sep 16, 2012, 12:20
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Yes, I deny it. No segment of society in the USA poses a realistic threat to a muslim filmaker or mosque.
The reason you are proposing the meme is that you want to demonize christians, lumping them in with muslims.
While you claim to be a christian.
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| 502 | Boldwin
ID: 408191611 Sun, Sep 16, 2012, 12:34
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Midnight raid on free speech.

If you allow this, in the eyes of the islamists, you have taken the first step in submitting to allah. The whole point of the protests.
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| 503 | Boldwin
ID: 408191611 Sun, Sep 16, 2012, 12:35
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Source
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| 504 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Sep 16, 2012, 12:44
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re 501...Wrng. I am neither demonizing Christians nor buying your denial.
YOU, raised hell over the mis-named "Ground Zero" Mosque.
TN residents, forced the builders of a Mosque to go to court to be able to finish the building.
The MO Mosque, was burned twice in 30 days.
Dont EVEN try and pass off the fringe element in this country, as passive.
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| 505 | Boldwin
ID: 408191611 Sun, Sep 16, 2012, 13:02
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If only the Copts in North Africa only had to worry about random arson and legal hurdles to construction permits.
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| 506 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, Sep 16, 2012, 13:33
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post 505 doesn't even begin to address 504.
nor will you bother to address the murderous attacks on their fellow American by Christians such as Eric Rudolph, Timothy McVeigh, and Terry Nichols.
you simply REFUSE to accept that there are criminal acts by Christians, in the name of Christ. You REFUSE to accept all the points Sarge made in 504.
and no one is demonizing Christianity - only Christians who use Christ's name for violence. It's no difference that our outlook toward Islam - i'm not demonizing the Religion, but only those who use their God as an excuse to commit violent acts.
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| 507 | Mith
ID: 437192317 Sun, Sep 16, 2012, 13:42
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I'm sure this will come as a shock, but Pajama's Media is lying to you.
Your martyr of free speech was not arrested.
He was questioned by probation officers who are investigating whether he broke the conditions of his probation when he made the film.
From the link:The man, who served 21 months in prison on fraud and identity theft charges, could face more prison time if it is determined his involvement in the film was a violation of his probation, which barred him from either owning or using devices with access to the Web without prior approval from his probation officer.
Nakoula was charged with bank fraud and aggravated identity theft in 2009. According to the criminal complaint, his other aliases included Mark Basseley Youssef, Thomas Tanas, Ahmad Hamdy, Erwin Salameh, and Nicola Bacily. He had credit cards, social security cards, passports, leases and driver's licenses to match.
As a result of the felony proceedings, Nakoula was sentenced to 21 months in prison, ordered to pay $794,700.57 and was placed under supervised release for five years following his release. Bureau of Prison records indicate that he was released in June 2011. Also, his criminal record goes back more than a decade earlier than that: Nakoula's criminal record includes a 1997 conviction for possessing drugs used to make methamphetamine, according to Los Angeles County Superior Court records.
Sheriff's authorities testified that Nakoula was stopped in March that year after unloading boxes of pills from a U-Haul truck at a house in Lake Elsinore, Calif. Authorities stopped Nakoula later and found a receipt for the purchase of pseudophedrine, a main ingredient in meth, and $45,000 in a paper bag.
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| 509 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 19:58
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"All right -- there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent on government, who believe that, that they are victims, who believe that government has the responsibility to care for them. Who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing." - Mitt saying it how he's sees it. Rich. Out of Touch. Spoiled. Prick.
He is sure to be quite a leader.
Mr. Romney’s figure of 47 percent may come from the Tax Policy Center, which found that 46.4 percent of households paid no federal income tax in 2011. But most households did pay payroll taxes. Of the 18.1 percent of households that paid neither income taxes nor payroll taxes, the center found that more than half were elderly and more than a third were not elderly but had incomes under $20,000.
NYT
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| 512 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 22:12
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god forbid people feel entitled to food and housing.
it is our absolute MORAL OBLIGATION to provide food and housing for those who do not have. i don't care what your religion is, if your god has even one iota of compassion, it is your moral obligation to provide food and housing for those who do not have.
there is no question on this, and how anyone can believe otherwise is baffling, and goes against again religious doctrine i know.
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| 513 | Boldwin
ID: 348451718 Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 23:38
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If they will not work, neither should they eat.
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| 514 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 23:52
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Ezekial 16:49-50
49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
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| 515 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 23:57
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not really sure whether to discuss the very un-Christian sentiment you just expressed, or ask you what to do for those who cannot work?
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| 516 | Boldwin
ID: 348451718 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 00:00
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"“If anyone does not want to work, neither let him eat.” - 2 thes 3:10
"To such persons we give the order and exhortation in [the] Lord Jesus Christ that by working with quietness they should eat food they themselves earn." - 2 thes 3:12
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| 517 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 00:11
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90% of the unemployed, would love to have work B. Has nothing at all to do, with them not wanting to work.
Your attitude, totally and entirely unChrsitian as it is, illustrate the truth of you far more than any exhortations you may make to the contrary.
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| 518 | Boldwin
ID: 348451718 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 01:06
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The apostle Paul was not unchristian.
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| 519 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 01:39
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sarge: One of the reasons why some mainline Christians don't believe that JW's are "real" christians is because of their attitude toward charity. I'm making no value judgement here, but JW's work very hard to have no association at all (not even a charitable one) with "worldly" people.
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| 520 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 07:07
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Nevermind his crass uncaring attitude towards the unemployed, the vast majority of those who is happy to throw under the bus are elderly and working poor.
Those who have spent their lives working in jobs he has no conception of; work that this country is built upon, while he has spent his life eating bon bons and doing his best to destroy these peoples lives for profit. The man is the worst kind of vile human refuse.
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| 521 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 07:12
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Romney?
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| 522 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 07:18
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This is his thread, right?
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| 523 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 07:25
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I am just really pissed off that this guy who has had every single break imaginable in life, and who has made millions throwing people out of work, and has contributed nothing towards building anything of value for our nation, can then, when talking candidly, dismiss as useless the millions of janitors, mechanics, construction workers, nurses teachers, road workers etc.. that have actually worked for a living and built things, educated our children, cared for our sick, and form the foundation of our nation, just because they are now retired or don't make enough money annually to buy one of Romney's shoes.
His attitude is a sickness, and his ilk should be shunned, not worshiped or elected to positions of power. If not, our nation is in some serious trouble.
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| 524 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 07:31
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+1
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| 525 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 12:03
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amen. and i believe it is that anger that bili is showing will continue to spread. the more Romney talks, the more you realize what a vile human he is. The best strategy for Obama's re-election campaign is to let Romney keep talking.
(never mind that the majority of the 47% who don't pay taxes (in regards to Romney's statement) live in states that are Republican strong holds.)
While Obama has been a disappointment for many of his supporters, i can't even begin to imagine how those folks could allow someone like Mitt Romney to become president.
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| 527 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 12:37
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Yeah, Brooks plays the apologist by suggesting that Romney's not really an arrogant, coddled, unfeeling, hateful dick, he just has to act like one to get the votes of the GOP base.
Is that better or worse?
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| 528 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 12:49
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the more you realize what a vile human he is
I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. While he's wildly out of touch with the conditions and circumstances of a huge contingency of Americans, that's a result of his complete lack of exposure to the hardships of living paycheck to paycheck or no paycheck to no paycheck his entire life. It's likely the only period in his life where he experienced any level of humility was during his Mormon mission, where all missionaries live a relatively spartan existence for two years.
Beyond that, I think the mileage his opponents are attempting to gain from his comments is a disservice to any focus on the issues and policies that should be the forefront of the election. It's not much different than some of the focus Obama's opponents put forth as evidence that he's a vile human being.
Sometimes I think I'm the only one in this country who thinks both Obama and Romney are extraordinary men who have extraordinary achievements to their credit. While it's certainly not a kick to his chances for election, Romney's comments(made in a private setting, if there is such a thing any more)that the 47% of Americans who pay no federal income tax won't ever vote him, is a pretty honest evaluation.
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| 529 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 13:00
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I would love to focus on issues and policies. Unfortunately, Romney has not provided any details for us to focus on. So these sorts of stupid comments, heartfelt or not, are going to be magnified due to the lack of anything else to meaningfully talk about.
I would love to know how he plans to pay for his 2 trillion arms build up and 20% across the board income tax cuts. He tells us to check with him after he's elected. F that.
If he showed some balls and actually came out and said he was going to throw the middle class under the bus and do away with the mortgage interest deduction, I'd cheer. If he actually came out and said he was going to remove deductions for charitable contributions, I'd laugh, then cry, but I'd respect him.
All he does is talk in general sound-bite platitudes. He should not be surprised when the press, even those hoping to report some substance, latch onto these kinds of statements. It's all he's given us.
Frankly, given his Mass health care reform, I had hoped for a decent man and a good discussion of issues. I am sorely disappointed.
He's either a lying plastic-man or a simply vile human. You make the call.
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| 530 | Building 7
ID: 87592712 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 13:54
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I was away for a few days, or $13 Billion in Obama time (OST)
Revenue $2.2 Trillion Spending $3.7 Trillion Amount spending exceeds revenue (Overspending) $1.5 Trillion.
That's just the cash amount. The real amount is closer to $5,000,000,000,000 per year, if you used GAAP, like US Corporations are required to follow. That total is over $50 Trillion.
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| 531 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 13:55
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re 526: He has it about right.
Re 529: Are you describing Obama? Or is that a generic description of a politician?
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| 532 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 13:57
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The government, is not a business and can not be run as if it were. Why?
If invaded, national defense must be undertaken, without regard to the quarterly P&L.
The national infrastructure must be supported (created and maintained) without regard to short term ROI.
Civil laws need to be enforces, regardless of available budget concerns at that moment.
and hundreds of not thousands of other similar examples.
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| 533 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:01
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Obama has very explicitly provided numbers that actually add up to go along with all his policies.
Just because you don't perhaps believe them is another matter. Providing the numbers provides the basis for a rational discussion. Nothing has been forthcoming to provide that basis from Romney.
Again, this is the Romney thread. Sure, you can stick your tongue out and say "He called me names first!", but that's not a productive or useful conversation.
No, the two sides are not equivalent. The guns and religion comment 4 years ago was stupid, sure. For me it was just thoughtless, amateur sociology. It wasn't near the taste of evil that Romney's comment was, if he actually believes what he says.
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| 534 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:03
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b& - It appears to me that Romney wants to add at least 5 trillion on top.
Again, this is the ROMNEY thread.
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| 535 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:04
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Sarge: I don't think you know what running a business means, or have not concept of what the government does, both are in the process of allocating resources to best obtain some goals.
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| 536 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:08
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The question I have is this given you don't think running a business is similar to running the country, then how does being a lawyer prepare you for a position of leadership? Where in law school are they teaching you anything that resembles government? Now ask yourself why so many politicians have law degrees.
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| 537 | chode
ID: 3610616 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:11
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If all the vitriol in 529 was anywhere remotely to be found in response to Nancy Pelosi's infamous "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it" statement, you might have some standing. But as easy as it is for people to pile on B for his "selective outrage," that post ranks right up there. Unfortunately it's just as boikin points out in 531 - the same applies to *all* politicos, both sides.
I mean, seriously - you're suggesting that "All he does is talk in general sound-bite platitudes" is endemic to Romney or the Right, and them alone? F that, indeed.
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| 538 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:13
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Many, like Obama, gain experience via law-making bodies like Congress or state and local legislative bodies.
I personally think good leaders are more born than made. Obama appears to be a pretty good leader.
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| 539 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:15
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Chode - if you think 529 was vitriol, I need to step up my game. That was me being thoughtful and granting concessions.
Go back a few posts for vitriol.
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| 540 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:17
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re 535...I know you dont have a clue what you are talking about, re what I do or do not know. In the 80s, I ran an independent insurance agency in IA. Employed 35 licensed agents at one point. We were an ag agency, and consecutive drought years, coupled with banks doing with ag land, the same as they did with residential mortgages recently; led to my BK.
Further, I was raised on a farm in IA. Without doubt, that too is a business. So please, dont EVEN pretend you have any idea, what I know, or what I dont know. Truth is, you dont have a clue.
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| 541 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:28
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sarge did you not see the "or"? I said business or government.
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| 542 | MIth
ID: 548161813 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:28
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B7 530
Post 489 has been waiting patiently for you.
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| 543 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:29
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sarge did you not see the "or"? I said business or government.
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| 544 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:30
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Yes boikin, I saw the 'or'. I still say, you dont have a clue, what I do or do not know. Re my 532...what did I maintain, that you think is incorrect?
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| 545 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:36
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re 538: that was general questions not necessarily pointed towards Obama, considering 25 of the 43 presidents were lawyers? Or that 38% of the house and 60% of the senate are as well.
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| 546 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:44
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Yes, I think 532 is incorrect in every statement, and I already explained why. You do realize you just reformatted basically the same example: X must be done give constraint Y?
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| 547 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 14:48
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and you say I dont know how it works....*smdh* You really dont have a clue at all, do you?
IF, I am wrong when I say: If invaded, national defense must be undertaken, without regard to the quarterly P&L., then it would logically follow that we should roll over and play dead, if the funds for an active defense are lacking.
Is that then, your contention?
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| 548 | Boldwin
ID: 498541813 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 15:01
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90% of the unemployed, would love to have work B. Has nothing at all to do, with them not wanting to work. - Sarge
A portion. The ones whose lives you haven't sabotaged already. The ones who have family values, functioning families and family support.
Instead of handing them a fish and outlawing fishing, try getting out of the way of their success.
How about not sabotaging education so that 80% of students can't read or do math, and thus can't get a job, do a job or hold on to a job?
But the teachers made sure those kids are very very sure my money is actually their money.
How about not bankrupting the country to pay those non-performing teachers $80K and golden parachute?
How about not penalizing people for getting married and forming financially sustainable families?
How about not rewarding people for pumping out illegitimate children for pay?
People need personal responsibility and opportunity. The last thing they need is a life of dependency and hopelessness.
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| 549 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 15:06
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You are remarkable B. According to what you have posted in the past, your finances are nowhere close, to being in "Romneyville". You lambast those you claim portray themselves as victims. YET, you have bought hook-line-and-sinker, the bogus GOP allegation that the left has deprived you of your avenues of success. If that were true....why isnt EVEYRONE where you are? Why is ANYONE, where Romney is? How did Microsoft get off the ground? Or Berkshire-Hathaway? Why do YOU, insist on playing victim?
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| 550 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 15:08
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Romney's comments(made in a private setting, if there is such a thing any more)that the 47% of Americans who pay no federal income tax won't ever vote him, is a pretty honest evaluation.
I find it hard to believe that you got suckered into this notion that Obama voters are largely compromised of government leeches and that Romney does not get much or any support from these people. The poorest states in the country (and the ones that receive the most federal assistance) all vote Republican. This dichotomy that Romney tried to draw is false and was meant to push the idea that he is a man of those who want to work and succeed and that Obama is a President who pushes for further government dependence, and thus dominates the vote from those who are lower income.
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| 551 | Tree
ID: 478201814 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 15:22
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How about not penalizing people for getting married and forming financially sustainable families?
says the guy who wants to prevent loving couples from getting married.
How about not bankrupting the country to pay those non-performing teachers $80K and golden parachute?
the federal government pays the nation's teachers?
How about not rewarding people for pumping out illegitimate children for pay?
says the guy who wants to force women to have unwanted children.
and so on.
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| 552 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 21:02
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Pancho Villa
Romney's comments... that the 47% of Americans who pay no federal income tax won't ever vote him, is a pretty honest evaluation.
While I stop well short of "vile human being" I don't see how it's honest in any context. I saw a graph on Daily Dish yesterday claiming that the ten states with the highest percentages of people with no tax liability are southern or reliably red. I think it was dated 2008 so maybe one or more have since been supplanted by someplace like Michigan.
The point (in fact the same point that Obama was asked about that year at a private fundraiser when he made the now infamous 'cling to their guns and religion' comment) is that many lower middle class and poor vote Republican.
Romney certainly knows this and also knew that none of them were at that $50,000.00/plate dinner to hear him say his job isn't to worry about them or accuse them of choosing to leech on society.
I think we agree that the quote shouldn't be considered all that offensive to anyone who already understands and accepts his platform. And I do share your discouragement with the kind of attention it's getting. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit to partly feeling like Romney is reaping what his campaign has sewn in hijacking the context of Obama's 'you didn't build that' comment. I wish I had enough faith in Obama to not follow suit beyond a wisecrack or two on David Letterman. Maybe he'll surprise me.
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| 553 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 22:25
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I think we agree that the quote shouldn't be considered all that offensive to anyone who already understands and accepts his platform
Exactly. The quote is intended for the base, and Romney has made this general election about the base's desires, only a bit louder.
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| 554 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 23:20
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It's a given to just about everybody, including Romney, that certain states are definitely blue;some definitely red. When he further indicated he needed 10 to 15 percent of independents to win the election, I think that better defines the overall demographic in the states that are still in play that he feels can put him over the top, not the 47% who don't pay federal income tax, even though there's probably some overlap.
So, if we agree that Romney is talking about the few undecideds and independents in a few swing states, I think we can surmise that he honestly thinks his concentration would be wasted on those who don't make enough money to pay income taxes.
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| 555 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 23:27
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The quote is intended for the base
Well it's intended for the investor class, which I'd say is the right's power elite rather than the base.
Regardless, I also think there are a lot of people who identify with the tea party who might take exception to Mitt Romney associating them with Obama supporters who are dependent on government and believe they are victims, that government has the responsibility to care for them and that they are entitled to health care, food and housing.
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| 556 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 23:32
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I read 489. Owe-bama borrowed another $5 million before I finished.
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| 557 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 23:33
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I disagree as to the impact. And I probably don't have to post a "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!" sign to demonstrate why.
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| 558 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 23:35
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agreed PD.
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| 559 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 23:38
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I read 489. Owe-bama borrowed another $5 million before I finished.
You know that the last spending bills originated in the GOP House, right? And the "looming fiscal cliff" that is the mandatory sequestering was their idea?
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| 560 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 23:53
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hands off my Medicare
Maybe you're right. Though a pointed insult from what you thought was an ally could be an eye opener for some.
And I'd say that couldn't have much impact electorally except that FL and NC were ranked 9th and 12th in states with the highest percentage of filers with no liability.

I'm not expecting a mass conversion but I do think some might be turned off enough to stay home.
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| 561 | Razor
ID: 238541822 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 23:54
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Panchromatic, you are missing so many points it is hard to know where to start. First and most obvious, if you are running for office and feel compelled to insult someone, insult your opponent not the electorate. Romney correctly pointed out that 47% of people do not pay income taxes. He incorrectly assumed that they are all Obama supporters who want the government to provide for them. There are plenty of poor Republicans who are fine being poor but not fine being called things they are not.
Secondly, claiming that all citizens who don't pay taxes are victims is ludicrous, especially when you consider many retirees who spent decades working hard for their benefits.
Lastly, this is the governor who brought universal health care to his state. Him talking about it being an entitlement in a negative way, along with food and housing, something most Americans are bald to pony up for for our poorest citizens, is just silly.
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| 562 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 01:26
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Razor, you're ignoring the fact that Romney wasn't speaking to "the electorate." He was speaking to fat cat donors, who were there to lap up the rubber chicken, 12 year old scotch, and red meat rhetoric designed to soothe any concerns they might have that their nominee might display any signs of moderation.
Additionally, some will remember that I have s bit of bias for Romney, since I ran KOVO(Provo, Ut) sports radio in 2002, and had the pleasure of interviewing Romney(with my co-host) and found him to be accomodating, articulate, effective and personable in his position as head of the 2002 Winter Olympics.
It's discouraging that he's such a bad candidate; it's discouraging that he's continued to pander to the most extreme elements of the GOP; and it's discouraging that his legacy will be forever tarnished as the candidate who got his butt kicked by a President whose performance has been incredibly average.
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| 563 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 09:37
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Interesting post, PV.
Of course Obama supporters would love to promote the meme that the 47% are universally supportive of socialism. And they are misrepresenting his comments to that effect.
It is of course the carrot they wish would work.
"You are a taker. Why vote against the robbinghood party"?
But in point of fact plenty of us down here in the 47% are anti-marxist and pro-capitalist as all get out.
Romney doesn't believe otherwise, but it is just a constant and growing problem that half the population doesn't pay income tax. It is a perverse incentive.
I wonder if there is a reliable way to quantify if the 53% are more conservative than the 47% because I really doubt it. Higher education has really done a hatchet job on capitalism since the 60's.
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| 564 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 10:20
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Higher education has really done a hatchet job on capitalism since the 60's.
Not true. I think what you meant to say, and would be accurate in saying:
A more educated populace sure has cut into the extremist rightwing numbers.
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| 566 | Tree
ID: 48830199 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 10:37
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But in point of fact plenty of us down here in the 47% are anti-marxist and pro-capitalist as all get out.
and anyone who thinks Obama is anything other than extremely pro-Capitalist either isn't pay attention, or doesn't know what Capitalism is.
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| 567 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 10:43
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| 568 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 10:43
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hmmm didnt quite work....
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| 569 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:04
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Crony capitalism is not exactly capitalism. A socialist state is not exactly capitalism.
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| 570 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:17
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And Obama isn't exactly socialist.
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| 571 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:34
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PV, as a Presidential candidate, Romney should assume that he is always "on", and thus, speaking to the electorate. The fact that he says these types of things behind closed doors is worrisome. Is this the real Romney? Or is the real Romney the one out on the campaign trail advocating for the middle class and seniors?
I do think you are correct that Romney is much better than this. He's letting the party lead him rather than the other way around. Notice that there have not been many gripes lately from the Right of Romney being a RINO or too moderate. But the extremists in the party are intent on fighting the fight on their terms, even if it means losing the election. Governor Romney would be a great candidate, but that's not what we've gotten.
There is a conversation to be had here about tax rates, but Romney is continuing the Republican trend of lowering taxes. Isn't that how we got such a large percentage of people not paying income taxes in the first place? It seems Romney DOES want to make more people pay taxes, a position which with I agree, but he wants to simultaneously reduce taxes for the wealthy, a position which I find ludicrous for both its lack of fiscal responsibility and fairness.
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| 572 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:22
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It seems Romney DOES want to make more people pay taxes
It seems no such thing.
He should however expose the rising hidden taxes you can't zero out.
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| 573 | Mith
ID: 15881816 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:49
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Romney DOES want to make more people pay taxes
Of course he does.
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| 574 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:54
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Name one instance in the last 30 years where republicans approved a tax increase for anyone where they weren't dragged in that direction against their will kicking and screaming.
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| 575 | Tree
ID: 48830199 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:58
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Name one instance in the last 30 years where republicans approved a tax increase for anyone where they weren't dragged in that direction against their will kicking and screaming.
and by "against their will kicking and screaming", you mean "acted liked mensches and understood compromise is vital"?
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| 576 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 13:09
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No I mean, got tired of being demonized by the media as starving granny just because they didn't want to bankrupt the country.
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| 578 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 13:19
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Get real.238 of 242 House Republicans and 41 out of 47 Senate Republicans had signed ATR's "Taxpayer Protection Pledge", in which the pledger promises to "oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax rate for individuals and business; and to oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates. Even with democrats and the media conspiring to blackmail them into it, Neither Romney or the House of Representatives is going to raise anyone's taxes.
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| 579 | Mith
ID: 15881816 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 13:25
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Neither Romney or the House of Representatives is going to raise anyone's taxes
This is why you need to calm down before you tell anyone to get real. Read what Razor wrote again. He didn't say Romney wanted to raise anyone's taxes.
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| 580 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 13:45
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It seems Romney DOES want to make more people pay taxes
Is raising from zero to higher than zero a raise?
Is there anything to be gained by being so cute as to deny that?
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| 581 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 13:47
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Of course Romney wants to raise taxes on the poor. Thats what "broadening the base" means in GOP speak.
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| 582 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 13:54
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Things have changed since you rolled Bush on the 'read my lips' debacle. Which is why libs hate Grover Norquist so much.
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| 583 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 14:02
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"Name one instance in the last 30 years where republicans approved a tax increase for anyone where they weren't dragged in that direction against their will kicking and screaming."
Every time they passed a non-balanced budget.
Oh, to be sure, the tax increase didn't happen THEN, but someone has to pay for it right?
That's the fundamental difference between the parties -- you like to accuse the Democrats of "tax and spend", which on some level is even true -- but that's still vastly superior than "don't tax and still spend anyway then lie out your ass about being fiscally responsible", which is pretty much your party line.
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| 584 | Mith
ID: 15881816 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 14:12
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Is raising from zero to higher than zero a raise?
?? Uh... ok if you insist... sure, Romney wants to raise some people's taxes. But it also means that it seems Romney DOES want to make more people pay taxes.
Am I to assume you think he was lying to Cavuto?
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| 585 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 14:22
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Romney has no idea of what he wants, and it reflects in how non-specific his proposals are. He includes just enough keywords to hook in his base, without being specific enough to be criticized (because, you know, this is how leaders operate). But, if elected, he'll be mugged by reality soon enough.
And his base will blame Democrats for it.
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| 586 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 18:54
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Why vets would back Romney, defies logic
When Nicholson resigned, Paul Rieckhoff, executive director of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, the largest group representing veterans of America’s two post-9/11 wars, said, “The VA under Secretary Nicholson has been woefully unprepared for the influx of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, consistently underestimating the number of new veterans who would seek care, and failing to spend the money Congress allotted to treat mental-health issues.” {emphasis added}
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| 587 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 21:08
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Pew
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| 588 | Mith
ID: 15881816 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 09:27
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PoliticoThe campaign is moving fast to calm nerves, especially among donors. To get a flavor of the challenge before them, a top donor said that after Romney spoke at a fundraising breakfast at the Hilton New York on Friday, a will-Mitt-win poll was taken at one table of 10 men, each of whom had paid at least $2,500 to attend, and some of whom had raised as much as $50,000 for the campaign. Not a single man said yes.
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| 589 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:02
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Funny, I don't remember you telling us, 'this guy is an obvious loser' when you were propping him up as the republican's best choice.
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| 591 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:08
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when you were propping him up as the republican's best choice....
Like McCain before him, Romney moved from moderate to far right in an effort to entice the relatively small populace that makes up that voting bloc.
by doing so, he's made the same mistakes McCain did, and driven off the voters that actually make a difference.
maybe in 2016 the Republicans will learn that the radical right is not really who they need to court.
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| 592 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:19
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"Funny, I don't remember you telling us, 'this guy is an obvious loser' when you were propping him up as the republican's best choice."
False dichotomy. It's entirely possible for him to be both an obvious loser and also the best choice, if the other candidates were even more obvious losers. Which, largely being hateful bigots and/or complete ignoramuses, they actually were.
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| 593 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:20
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The distinction, it's important to note, is that most of us want what's best for the country, not what's best for the Republican party.
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| 594 | Mith
ID: 15881816 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:27
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I don't remember you telling us, 'this guy is an obvious loser'
I don't recall saying any such thing, either. That said I don't recall commenting on the type of campaign he'd run at all. Is there something in posts 587 & 588 that led you to believe I was taking credit for prescience on the matter?
At least you've given up trying to defend #580.
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| 595 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:31
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Yeah, Republicans should always nominate some democrat-lite who their base can't stand. Sure.
Make it someone with a stirling socialist accomplishment in his portfolio. That should really woo the independents. "I can do socialist medicine better than Obama". Winner.
He'll win anyway. Especially if his current handlers get replaced, c'ya Pawlenty.
None 0f the above could beat Obama, a dead cat could beat Obama now that he's been partially exposed and Mitt will too.
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| 596 | Seattle Zen
ID: 47630913 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:37
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None 0f the above could beat Obama, a dead cat could beat Obama now that he's been partially exposed and Mitt will too.
Idiocy. What pathetic excuses will you spew when Romney loses? The lamestream media? Diebold is now in the pocket of a socialist totalitarian?
Is there a single webpage out there on the interwebs that has predicted state-by-state a Romney win? You could post a link, but I do have a BS filter on my web browser, so I probably won't be able to read it.
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| 598 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:44
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We do need to preserve that last line in 595 though, for explanation on Nov 5th.
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| 599 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:15
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For the record, my reaction would be, "I'm surrounded by idiots" and then I'd put my Costa Rica retirement plans into high gear.
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| 600 | Mith
ID: 15881816 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:16
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Costa Rica retirement plans
Nice choice. Universal health care there.
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| 601 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:35
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I don't yet have plans, just picked it very very tenatively because I know retirees there doing quite well.
But I really don't want to live thru Obama's evil fantasy.
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| 602 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:39
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Best brush up on your Spainish.
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| 603 | Great One
ID: 2431114 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:41
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He must secretly want some of that universal health care.
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| 604 | Tree
ID: 158342012 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:47
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a dead cat could beat Obama now
this is probably true. unless, of course, that dead cat is running as a conservative that alienates every swing voter in the country...which, is pretty much any conservative and Republican these days that attempts to appeal to the "Base".
that's what makes the Republicans so pathetic at this point. while a dead cat could beat Obama, a Republican couldn't.
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| 605 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:50
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The Rep Party's "best" candidate, couldnt garner double digits support that I can recall, outside of his home state. Huntsman is more conservative than I would like, but at least you had a natural tendency to believe most of what he said. He'd have given Obama a FAR tougher race than Romney will.
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| 606 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:55
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1) There are I gather english speaking ex-pat/resort/retiree/tourist areas where it is not necessary, even tho I speak un poquito.
2) I want the exchange rate.
3) This is true, unless you are perceived as Dem-lite. Republican Dem-lites never win, and his current team is not distinguishing themselves in distancing him from that.
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| 607 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:59
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If in pt 3 above, you are suggesting that Mitt is "Dem lite" and THAT is why he is losing...you are dead wrong. It is because Mitt is coming across as a rightwingnut radical, that he is losing. If he ran as a "Dem lite" with a few more conservative tendencies, he would possibly have won the election already.
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| 608 | Tree
ID: 158342012 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 15:07
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and more trickery from the Romney camp:
Obama 'Redistribution' Clip Truncated
The 14-year-old audio clip circulated by the Mitt Romney campaign this week to attack Barack Obama as favoring "redistribution" of wealth was "deceptively edited," Democrats say, leaving out important context that Obama provided in his next breath.
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| 610 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 18:09
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This was not a very good attempt to shift the attention to a tape of Obama saying something the electorate might find unpalatable.
The answer he gave to Sam the Plumber's Helper about redistributing wealth obviously didn't sink Obama in 2008 so I probably would have kept looking rather than saturate the conservative blogosphere with the similar and obviously clipped sound bite from 14 years ago.
My bet is that if it had any impact at all, it did more harm than good.
I think people understand that many crucial and broadly supported government programs employ "wealth redistribution" and that the term actually defines the purpose of any functioning economy. I think they also understand that despite the best efforts of some to paint him that way, President Obama is not a communist.
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| 611 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 19:48
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I'd put my Costa Rica retirement plans into high gear.
Before his death, my father consulted with Costa Rican naturalists and wildlife experts(in his position with the World Wildlife Fund and leading international ornithologist) in the interest of prohibiting mass exploitation of the Costa Rican ecosystems by developers(mostly American and European)who planned to turn the beaches and forests of that beautiful nation into a hodgepodge of luxury resorts, retirement condos, golf courses and highways through sensitive wildlife habitat.
He and his colleagues were incredibly successful.
Costa Rica recognised for bio-diversity protection
Costa Rica was today named as the winner of the 2010 Future Policy award at a global summit on biodiversity in Nagoya, Japan.
The Central American country aims to be the first developing nation to meet UN biodiversity commitments. The prize, issued by the World Future Council, was given in recognition of the country's 1998 biodiversity law, which was held up as a model for other nations to follow.
Costa Rica channels funds from a fuel tax, car stamp duty and energy fees to pay for nature reserve management and environmental services like clean air, fresh water and biodiversity protection.
Landowners are paid to preserve old-growth forests and to plant new trees. As a result, forest cover has risen from 24% in 1985 to close to 46% today.
It has also established a national commission on biodiversity, comprising scientists, civil servants and indigenous representatives, which proposes policies to the government and promotes green education among the public.
Partly as a result, Costa Rica ranks third in the global Environmental Performance index and first in the Happy Planet index.
Imagine Boldwin living in a country where "enviroweenies" are a respected part of the nation's leadership.
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| 612 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 19:52
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There are definitely a few warm climate nations out there with the terrific exchange rate he seeks and no government healthcare or regard for environmentalists, whatsoever.
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| 613 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 19:59
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If only you were as interested in preserving rare endangered one of a kind 'Best Country on Earth's.
But alas, you don't know what you've got till it's gone.
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| 614 | Tree
ID: 418152017 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 20:03
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i like the total irrelevancy of 613, as Baldwin plots his move to an environmentally friendly country with universal health care, only because Rush Limbaugh told him to.
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| 618 | Tree
ID: 418152017 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:26
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LMAO.
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| 619 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:39
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Pritzker’s search for a developed property, suitable for occupancy four months from now, instead of property where a custom-designed estate might be built, is further indication that insiders believe Obama will not be re-elected.
Or, Obama isn't stupid and knows that the housing market will never be as big a market for the buyer in our lifetime.
You decide.
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| 620 | Boldwin
ID: 38202019 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:40
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Spin harder, faster.
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| 621 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 15:10
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So you think Obama is right now buying a house in Hawai'i for when he loses? Really?
Meanwhile, Romney is releasing his 2011 taxes nowish. Not sure why, but apparently it still shows a nice and low tax rate (no surprise).
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| 622 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 15:20
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Direct link
As might be imagined, that page sometimes is not loading because of traffic.
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| 623 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Sep 23, 2012, 13:04
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"I have inherited nothing. Everything I earned I earned the old-fashioned way."..Mitt Romney
Did the Mitt Romney who grew up in one of the wealthiest communities in America inherit nothing?
Did the Mitt Romney who attended an elite preparatory school inherit nothing?
Did the Mitt Romney who worked as an intern for his father, the governor of Michigan inherit nothing?
Did the Mitt Romney who never had to borrow a dime to attend Stanford University, Brigham Young University, and, for his joint JD/MBA degree, Harvard University inherit nothing?
Did the Mitt Romney whose father's riches allowed Mitt and his wife to begin having children while they were still undergraduates and not have to worry about dropping out or getting a job to feed the kids, give them medical care, or send them to the schools of their choice inherit nothing?
How much did this head start (not to be confused with Head Start) shape Mitt Romney's adult life? How many Americans can say we've inherited all the nothings Mitt Romney inherited?
Julian Castro had it right: Mitt Romney just has no idea how good he's had it.
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| 624 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 15:22
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Mitt Romney, On 60 Minutes, Cites Emergency Room As Health Care Option For Uninsured
The man contradicts himself:
"Well, we do provide care for people who don't have insurance," he said in an interview with Scott Pelley of CBS's "60 Minutes" that aired Sunday night. "If someone has a heart attack, they don't sit in their apartment and die. We pick them up in an ambulance, and take them to the hospital, and give them care. And different states have different ways of providing for that care."
but Mitt...
When asked in a March 2010 interview on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" whether he believes in universal coverage, Romney said, "Oh, sure."
"Look, it doesn't make a lot of sense for us to have millions and millions of people who have no health insurance and yet who can go to the emergency room and get entirely free care for which they have no responsibility, particularly if they are people who have sufficient means to pay their own way," he said.
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| 625 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 16:08
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Romney's flip flopping is painful to listen to, mostly because I think he actually believed what he said before and has totally reversed his position on several issues for the sake of pleasing the base. As smart of a guy as Romney is, I am surprised he hasn't realized he doesn't have to cater to the base now that he won the GOP nomination.
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| 626 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 16:10
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Or maybe he's really smart and I am the stupid one. Maybe his internal polling is showing they stand a better chance of winning by trying to get a large turnout from Republican supporters rather than by winning the independent middle and risking some base support. I can't recall a Presidential election where that strategy has worked, but I'm not as old as he is.
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| 627 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 16:29
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Did the Mitt Romney who never had to borrow a dime to attend Stanford University, Brigham Young University, and, for his joint JD/MBA degree, Harvard University inherit nothing?
inherited or not(since I don't know how he got excepted on his own merits or his family got him in), but the day he got his acceptance letter to Harvard law his life was already set. Family or not getting into school there is like winning a life time lotto ticket.
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| 628 | Boldwin
ID: 548462415 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 16:53
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Just for the record...
"I have inherited nothing. Everything I earned I earned the old-fashioned way."
Sarge - did,did,did,did,did,did
When his father died in 1995, Mitt donated his inheritance to BYU's George W. Romney Institute of Public Management. - wiki
I don't think Romney is denying his family was a great asset. He's pro-strong families for a reason. It works.
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| 629 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 16:55
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He took his inheritance, in cash and paid for goodies before his Dad passed. How hard is that to figure out B?
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| 630 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 17:19
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I think the word you are looking for is nepotism maybe more so than inheritance.
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| 631 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 17:28
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His father died in 1995. Romney was given stock to attend Stanford and BYU long beforehand. Mitt may, indeed, have given his portion of the inheritance to the LDS upon his father's death, but this was decades after his father gave him American Motors stock, which Mitt sold off bit by bit to pay for his college expenses.
Ironically, it was through his father's good work at American Motors that caused that stock price to be worth anything at all--it was pretty much worthless when he got it originally.
So to be clear: Mitt Romney's father paid for his son's college by giving him that block of stock. It is no different, really, than anyone else whose parents paid for their education 100%.
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| 632 | Boldwin
ID: 548462415 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 17:46
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Two generations of rescuing failing enterprises with unsustainable budgets.
Where in the world did he get the idea he had anything to offer to America?
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| 633 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 18:00
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revisionist history......its no wonder you make up what happened in the past, given (as evidenced in another thread), you make up what is happening now.
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| 634 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 08:38
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So technically he didn't use any inheritance money to pay for his list. His family paid for it, but not as part of his inheritance. Is it semantics, yes. But it is a true statement.
Bain Capital also doesn't just sell off companies for money. It has done that in some instances, but that isn't their only method of operation.
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| 635 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 18:07
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So technically he didn't use any inheritance money to pay for his list
My dad always used to say that I was spending my inheritance every time I asked him for money!
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| 639 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Oct 01, 2012, 19:37
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Rolling Stone looks at Mitt Romney, the businessman
But what most voters don't know is the way Mitt Romney actually made his fortune: by borrowing vast sums of money that other people were forced to pay back. This is the plain, stark reality that has somehow eluded America's top political journalists for two consecutive presidential campaigns: Mitt Romney is one of the greatest and most irresponsible debt creators of all time. In the past few decades, in fact, Romney has piled more debt onto more unsuspecting companies, written more gigantic checks that other people have to cover, than perhaps all but a handful of people on planet Earth.
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| 640 | CJ
ID: 1691921 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 02:19
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It does not matter................All the talk about Mitt Romney? Is he our current president NO! I woudl liek to see you guys in here and the media apply half of the tough investigations and questions towards our current President who mark my words right here........"Will destroy and finish off this country in the next 4 years." No he can do worse than him and you want to talk about cleaning up a mess....what is Obama going to say 4 years from now...he was handed a bad situation from himself? Seriously this is a sick administration that can not stop spending us into a bankrupt country. All this talk about Romney and bashing him and pointing out X Y and Z.....try holding the current dude in the White house to half of those standards.....or you are just partisan? Obama will more than likely get re-elected and once Romney is gone again then what.....are we going to focus on the current government or are we just going to assume because he is our guy then he can not do wrong?
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| 641 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 07:45
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CNN Money
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| 642 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 10:05
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our current President who mark my words right here........"Will destroy and finish off this country in the next 4 years."
Please humor me by giving your abridged definition of the word "destroy." Or do you actually think the president's intent is to turn the country into a replica of 1945 Dresden or Berlin in the next 4 years if re-elected?
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| 643 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 10:20
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I figure Thunderdome. Keeping an eye out for some quality studded shoulder pads.
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| 644 | Boldwin
ID: 2992210 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:16
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do you actually think the president's intent is to turn the country into a replica of 1945 Dresden or Berlin in the next 4 years if re-elected?
If he can, block wardens, concentration camps for dissidents, euthanazia, the whole nazi 9 yards if he can figure out how to deliver it.
You've conveniently ignored what his mentors in college and those who launched his political career planned out with him.I want you to imagine sitting in a room with 25 people, most of which have graduate degrees, from Columbia and other well-known educational centers, and hear them figuring out the logistics for the elimination of 25 million people.
And they were dead serious.
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| 645 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:28
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How old was Obama in 1969? Check his birth certificate.
I'm pretty sure you need to pass a swim test before going off the deep-end.
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| 646 | Boldwin
ID: 2992210 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:38
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Check his birth certificate
If only we could.
Obama himself says he deliberately chose to only hang around Columbia radicals, like the people Grathwohl recorded, and like Bill Ayers, their hero.
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| 647 | Tree
ID: 13926211 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 12:28
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lol wow.
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| 648 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 12:30
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Heh.
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| 649 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 17:00
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When you are in such bad shape you are resorting to quotes from nearly half a century ago, that's pretty much the definition of "having nothing".
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| 650 | Boldwin
ID: 21952219 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 20:56
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'Nothing' is what you've got when you try and provide any evidence he's ever tempered those views.
All he does is surround himself with likeminded radicals [and crony businessmen who fund his radical politics]
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| 651 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 21:44
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The Commonwealth Fund conducted a study comparing the healthcare plans of the two candidates
Let’s compare the plans; this is what the study found in a summary:
Romney’s plan covers fewer people than under Obamacare. Romney’s plan has 54% higher out of pocket expenses than under Obamacare. Romney’s plan doesn’t reduce the deficit or bend the cost curve like Obamacare. Romney’s plan would bring back pre-existing conditions if you lapse on your insurance whereas under Obamacare pre-existing conditions do not exist ever. Ever. Romney’s plan would likely reduce consumer choice whereas Obamacare would expand it. Romney’s plan would eliminate the tax credits for small businesses provided under Obamacare. Romney’s plan would increase costs for Medicare beneficiaries and make Medicare insolvent by 2016. Obamacare reduces out of pocket expenses for seniors completely by 2020.
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| 652 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 00:35
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evidence he's ever tempered those views
Since you've never provided evidence he ever had those views[block wardens, concentration camps for dissidents, euthanazia, the whole nazi 9 yards ], all you've shown is contempt bordering on the maniacal, despite the meek qualifier, if he can figure out how to deliver it.
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| 653 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 01:43
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| 654 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 17:41
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Bain destroys a nr1 company in its sector
Mitt Romney’s Bain led a $791 million buyout of Sealy in 1997, putting $140 million down and, in typical private-equity fashion, having Sealy borrow the remaining $651 million to finance the deal and assume responsibility for paying it back.
Companies like Bain Capital call themselves private equity firms, but as I explained in my book “The Buyout of America” they really provide no equity. They make money by putting businesses at risk. They say they turn struggling businesses around. But Sealy was not a turnaround — it was the market leader in its sector.
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| 655 | Boldwin
ID: 58939311 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 18:45
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It apparently wasn't the profit leader of it's market segment.
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| 656 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 19:04
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and B? Saddling it with a 650 million dollar debt, was supposed to help...how?
Remember, that debt wasnt for capital improvements. No. Bain used that debt, to finish buying the company and collect its management fees.
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| 657 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 01:13
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That's what equity firms do. Buy companies, leverage their assets into loans, than bleed off management and other fees before spinning them off.
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| 658 | Boldwin
ID: 1194146 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 07:42
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I'd start a debate thread but it would just get deleted. Loved reading Andrew Sullivan, the 'conservative' bleeding all over himself over the debate drubbing Obama took.
He's a conservative, you know. *cough*
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| 659 | Boldwin
ID: 1194146 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 08:08
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Knockout - PowerlineThrough the evening, Romney came across as the competent executive, in command and optimistic. Obama was the defeated, out of ammo failure whose ideas have been tried and found wanting. I don’t know how the Democrats will try to spin this one, but it just doesn’t matter. There was only one credible leader on the stage tonight, and it wasn’t our failed president. This was a huge night for the cause of freedom, one from which, one hopes, Obama can’t recover. The pitiful figure that we saw tonight was the real Obama, the loser behind the curtain who is finally revealed as an utter hoax.
UPDATE: Andrew Sullivan, maybe the dumbest of all the liberals, writes: “This was a disaster.” Yes, it definitely was a disaster. Meanwhile, they are ballistic on MSNBC. Too funny! Now they think Obama is an idiot. Well, for once they are coming close to the truth.
MORE: CNN finds Romney “winning” 67-25. That is an unbelievable blowout.
JOE adds: The body language telegraphed a lot. Barack Obama spoke down to viewers:



I've never fully understood the 'lift one foot back and off the ground' body language but I do know when someone has just taken one on the kisser.
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| 660 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 09:28
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Loved reading Andrew Sullivan
Just to be clear, your gloating over a debate victory for a man you said has "zero core values and principles" and who for years you demeaned as a phony conservative until the moment he won the nomination - does in fact mean that you have finally given up all pretense about your religion-mandated disregard and rejection of politics, right?
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| 661 | Boldwin
ID: 1194146 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 09:37
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No, it means I'd like a few more years before people like Obama bury the USA and put me in a concentration camp.
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| 662 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 09:42
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I suspect you're the only person reading this who doesn't see that the first word of your response is contradicted by the rest of it.
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| 663 | Boldwin
ID: 1194146 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 09:51
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Rejecting a role in politics doesn't prevent you from cringing when you see a tyrant walking your way.
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| 664 | Boldwin
ID: 1194146 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 10:24
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Keep a grip on your imagination when it comes to me, MITH.
We are just approximately 8 guys doing 'Mystery Science Theater' to the evening news.
I don't have a political bumper-sticker. I don't have a sign on my lawn. I am not out there with my name on every poll and signature drive. I don't talk politics when I knock on people's door. I've never voted. My neighbors aren't influenced by me.
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| 665 | Boldwin
ID: 1194146 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 10:27
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Keep a grip on your imagination when it comes to me, MITH.
I don't have a political bumper-sticker. I don't have a sign on my lawn. I am not out there with my name on every poll and signature drive. I don't talk politics when I knock on people's door. I've never voted. My neighbors aren't influenced by me.
We are just approximately 8 guys doing 'Mystery Science Theater' to the evening news.
That's all that's going on here as far as I am concerned.
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| 666 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 10:34
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No, it means I'd like a few more years before people like Obama bury the USA and put me in a concentration camp.
i'm 100 percent certain you have nothing to worry about, regardless of who wins the presidential election.
in fact, i will make this prediction - if Obama wins again, you will not be put in a concentration camp by him, or anyone else on his staff.
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| 668 | Boldwin
ID: 5393249 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 10:52
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Being neutral doesn't mean being blind to badness.
When JW's, Jews and others were being killed in concentration camps, we actively pointed it out to others. We didn't advise people on what action to take about it, but we pointed it out.
And I am happy to point out that Obama's favorite people believe in concentration camps.
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| 669 | Boldwin
ID: 5393249 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 11:09
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In a more recent example, I would say in the case of Rwanda had I known that the Hutu planned on murdering all the Tutsi, including us, neutrality would not have precluded point that fact out.
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| 670 | Boldwin
ID: 5393249 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 11:12
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And Obama's favorite people are planning on that.
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| 671 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 13:02
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Ah, his "favorite people" are "planning" that. Nice. Well, that settles it then. You can go lie down now.
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| 672 | Building 7
ID: 87592712 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 13:30
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Andrew Sullivan is conservative? Excerpts from the link in #658:
Look: you know how much I love the guy,[Obama]
The idea that the candidate of the current Republican party is portraying himself as the most willing to reach across the aisle is staggering
The liar has managed to make Obama seem dishonest
And now Romney's lies on healthcare are becoming effective.
Romney is now so clearly lying about how president Obama decided to do healthcare before jobs I wonder if he's over-reaching ...................... I would not even try to claim he is neutral.
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| 673 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 13:34
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If you don't understand where Sullivan is coming from, I can see how you would make the mistake you did in 672.
Sullivan likes Obama because Obama is actually much more true to what conservationism means. If you dig just a little bit into Sullivan's writings on Obama you'll see that.
No, he's not neutral (who made this claim?). He's a conservative Obama supporter.
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| 674 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 14:32
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Actually I don't think Sullivan is really much of a conservative any more.
I posted this a few days ago, a pretty detailed explanation of his transformation from Reagan supporter to Obama supporter.
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| 675 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 15:05
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quote from the link in 674
It is interesting that Obama would focus on this part "education plans that would hurt teachers" I am not sure but I thought the goal of education to help students not to help teachers? Maybe if people quit worrying about teachers and actually worried about the students maybe the education system would improve.
This seems to be general problem in that politicians do not actually try and solve problems, they try and avoid problems. Since students don't vote and teachers do any changes of the education system must not hurt teachers becuase that would be problem getting you elected.
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| 676 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:00
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Maybe if people quit worrying about teachers and actually worried about the students maybe the education system would improve.
Personally I'd think we'd want to attract the best teachers possible to prepare our youth to compete in a global maket.
Also I didn't intend to link the home page at Sullivan's Daily Dish Here is the piece I intended.
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| 677 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:27
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Personally I'd think we'd want to attract the best teachers possible to prepare our youth to compete in a global maket.
that is a possibility but you should still not constrain your self to not hurting the current teachers. If the head coach sucks you don't keep him and just hire more coaches you fire him and then bring in a new coach.
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| 678 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:46
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Sure, but no one is talking about hurting head coaches. Obama made a reference to proposed policies that hurt teachers. I'd probably take a look at the proposal specifics before deciding whether to criticize generalities with a misplaced football analogy.
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| 679 | Boldwin
ID: 5393249 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:48
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Obama is actually much more true to what conservationism means
This is just Orwell-speak.
The same kind of deliberate misdirection that exists when they try and claim Stalinists are rightwing and Gorby was to his left.
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| 680 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:57
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It doesn't matter what the policy was, if Obama thought Romney's plan was bad for education(or that was even the goal of the quote) he would have said it would hurt students, not it would hurt teachers. But like I said earlier this is just an example politicians focusing on the avoiding of problems instead of addressing them.
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| 681 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 17:16
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I think you are reading too much into it, boikin. The exchange that I recall was specifically talking about teacher pay.
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| 682 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 09:05
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How about we start focusing on the real problem, not all students/families/cultures value education.
Both the right and the left want to destroy public education and focus on charters. Charter schools have no track record of success once they are forced to take all students. The charters that have had success have chery-picked students that value education and then claimed their methods are successful.
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| 683 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 09:44
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Boikin
Surely you know it's folly to assess his education policy with a sentence fragment. In that case (which should be clear as day from the excerpt in Sullivan's post) he wasn't even talking about his education policy or priorities. He was criticizing ("focusing on") Romney's honesty and policy, claiming Romney hurts teachers (one of several accusations, actually) and that he was not forthcoming about it at the debate.
Further, the excerpt in the Sullivan post surmised what Obama said. It's not a direct quote.
Frick I agree. The heart of our education problems are at the family/culture level. Across the cultural spectrum, every place where you find concentrations of failing schools you're guaranteed to see corresponding rampant anti-intellectualism and pride in ignorance. Shutting down schools with the hardest uphill climbs can't possibly have any effect but to advance the problem.
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| 685 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 22:19
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Romney switches stance on abortion?
Mitt Romney said Tuesday he has no plans to push for legislation limiting abortion, a softer stance from a candidate who has said he would "get rid of" funding for Planned Parenthood and appoint Supreme Court who would overturn Roe v. Wade.
“There’s no legislation with regards to abortion that I’m familiar with that would become part of my agenda,” the Republican presidential nominee told The Des Moines Register in an interview.
His statement could put him at odds with congressional Republicans who have made limiting abortion central to their messages. His own running mate, Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), has introduced bills to restrict access to abortion.
I've said it before, and things like this support my thinking. If Romney wins, we're going to see the moderate Romney that was governor, not the Romney who decided it would be prudent to pander to "the base." The moderate Romney will be much more appealing to a large cross-section of Americans.
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| 686 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 22:26
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We appear to be seeing the moderate Romney coming out for the General Election, but that doesnt mean he;d be the moderate Romney if elected. Frankly, he changes coats FAR too readily and easily for my taste.
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| 687 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 22:53
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His Etch-A-Sketch routine is starting up--that's all. Rather late in the game, but it's about the best shot he's got.
I don't think we'll see a moderate Romney--I think he'll be a mirror of the House.
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| 688 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 22:59
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If elected, I think he would indeed be. I think thats his real nature.
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| 689 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 23:50
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Given the current polls, it might be a good idea for those who have bought into the Romney as evil incarnate to prepare themselves for the real possibility that he'll be the next president.
If Romney is elected, it's my hope that we don't get a reccurence of what happened when Obama was elected: rabid, distorted, obstructionist opposition beginning before he even took office resulting in ineffective and rudderless governance. I fear more of the same if Obama is re-elected, through little fault of his own. Republicans have displayed a complete unwillingness to do what's necessary to solve problems or even address them in an environment of cooperation. I wouldn't be suprised to see a fervent impeach Obama movement on November 7th. It's more likely Democrats and Romney could work together.
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| 690 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 00:07
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Romney has disavowed virtually all policy ideas he made when he worked with Democrats in Massachusetts. While it is possible that he will work with Dems (particularly if the Dems take the House) it seems far more likely that he will work with the GOP base. And he's proposed few initiatives to attract Democrats to his candidacy--in fact, he's often gone out of his way to drive them away.
Romney isn't a moderate so much as a pragmatist. Put a House in the Democrats hands and suddenly Romney starts reaching across the aisle.
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| 691 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 00:47
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It's more likely Democrats and Romney could work together.
yea, no. i don't want to see this.
i am TIRED of Dems attempting to work with Republican presidents, while Republicans absolutely refuse to work with the democratic president.
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| 692 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 06:52
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689 - I've been thinking precisely that. If the congressional makeup stays the same, the Dem Senate is much more likely to go along with the opposition House and president than the current Rep House has been willing to cooperate with their opposition, at least when it comes to a lot of economic policy.
I'll also add that for all i know Mitt Romney could make a fine president. I've disagreed strongly with much of his proposed policy but moreso than any presidential candidate in memory, we have no idea how much he cares about or how closely he'll adhere to it, especially since so much of it is vague or incomplete anyway.
Of course it's also a shame that a successful election for Romney would establish such an incomplete and constantly shifting platform as a winning campaign strategy, even further dumbing down the future of American politics. But in this country I guess its in our culture to live in the moment.
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| 693 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 10:18
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I agree that Romney has run an incomplete and constantly shifting platform in his campaign. And since he has a very slim resume as an elected official(one term as a state governor), there's not a whole lot of track record available to form a coherent analysis as to how he would govern, similar to Obama in 2008(4 years as US senator, but much of the last two years and basically all of the last year spent campaigning for president).
After Obama's election in 2008, the noise from his opposition has and continues to distract from his actual record, which has been far more moderate and disappointing to the far left fringes that the noisemakers insist Obama fundamentally represents.
I don't know if the far right fringes hold much hope for a Romney presidency to represent their wishes as they'd like. Their entire premise is more anti-Obama than pro-Romney. That could make it a lot easier for Romney to govern from the middle, which, despite his unprincipled pandering used to secure the nomination, fits better with the Romney history prior to his initial presidential run in 2008, when he deservedly earned the flip-flop title.
As a postscript, my posts in this or any other thread are not meant to be an endorsement of Romney(or Obama)in this election. Thanks to the antiquated electoral college and my residence in Utah, my vote for president is meaningless. My natural tenedency for optimism, as well as my personal experience with the 2002 SLC Olympics, leads me to believe a Romney presidency wouldn't be the national disaster some would have us believe. It would be refreshing if more voices on the right would express the same sentiment about a 2nd Obama term, instead of "Obama wants to destroy the country" nonsense.
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| 696 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 08:50
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Thank you for writing up my thoughts on Romney much more elegantly PV.
I like some of what Romney accomplished in MA, but that is very different then the platform that he has been running.
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| 697 | Tree
ID: 209311111 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 12:59
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Heh....
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| 698 | Boldwin
ID: 589301022 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 17:44
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Re:#599
I've never googled costa rica vacations yet. I've never mentioned it anywhere but here in this thread. I've got Firefox and Ghostery blocking tracking services [except possibly Yahoo].
And I've got ads showing up for 'retire in Costa Rica'! Unbelievable. 8/
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| 699 | Tree
ID: 99281116 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 18:42
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you don't allow any cookies?!?!
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| 700 | Boldwin
ID: 589301022 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 21:21
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I allow them for Yahoo, and a game or two. I suppose it was Yahoo that tracked me. I must have searched Costa Rica once. I don't remember it.
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| 701 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 21:58
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(1) go to GOOGLE (2) enter "mathematically impossible" (3) enjoy
link
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| 702 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 12:08
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Police arrest 16 yr old gorl protesting her moms layoff at BAIN owned plant
The protests began last month on September 12th, when Sensata — a company owned by Bain Capital, the notorious leveraged buy-out firm founded by Presidential Candidate Mitt Romney — announced that 200 workers would be laid off by the end of this year, and that their jobs are being sent to China. To add insult to injury, Bain Capital ordered Sensata workers to take down the American flag when their Chinese replacements arrived for training (yes, part of Bain’s “harvesting” process requires workers to train their own replacements). Since Romney still profits from Bain’s practice of off-shoring jobs and “harvesting” the profits, Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan’s recent vehement anti-China statements ring hollow.
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| 705 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 16:14
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lmao
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| 706 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 16:38
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Ha! Gotta share this.
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| 707 | Boldwin
ID: 419151614 Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 18:59
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Easy. Tell a friendly republican House of Representatives that we aren't going to use 'baseline spending' in our budgeting anymore. Especially since the baseline has the insane stimulous spending levels still built into it.
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| 708 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 19:04
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When I find a friendly GOP House member I'll keep that in mind.
:)
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| 709 | Boldwin
ID: 419151614 Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 20:26
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Put Freedom Works pin on yer lapel.
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| 712 | Boldwin
ID: 4917199 Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 07:18
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| 714 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 13:49
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We cant afford federal disaster relief
The Washington Post's Greg Sargent adds: "There’s another nugget here worth highlighting, though. In that appearance, Romney also suggested it would be 'even better' to send any and all responsibilities of the federal government 'to the private sector,' disaster response included. So: Romney essentially favored privatizing disaster response."
Yeah, cause Sandy, Katrina, Andrew...were just opportunities to charge $75 for a $2 bottle of water. Bstrd.
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| 715 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 14:18
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Romney campaign,training volunteers in voter suppression
Documents from a recent Romney poll watcher training obtained by ThinkProgress contain several misleading or untrue claims about the rights of Wisconsin voters. A source passed along the following packet of documents, which was distributed to volunteers at a Romney campaign training in Racine on October 25th. In total, eight such trainings were held across the state in the past two weeks and 17 since late September. ... The training also encouraged volunteers to deceive election workers and the public about who they were associated with. On page 3 of the packet, Romney poll workers were instructed to hide their affiliation with the campaign and told to sign in at the polls as a “concerned citizen” instead. As Kristina Sesek, Romney’s legal counsel who just graduated from Marquette Law School last year, explained, “We’re going to have you sign in this election cycle as a ‘concerned citizen.’ We’re just trying to alleviate some of the animosity of being a Republican observer up front.”
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| 716 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Nov 03, 2012, 14:26
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Not so sure, Sen Harry Reid was wrong about Romneys non-paymnet of taxes
When individuals fund a charitable remainder unitrust, or “CRUT,” they defer capital gains taxes on any profit from the sale of the assets, and receive a small upfront charitable deduction and a stream of yearly cash payments. Like an individual retirement account, the trust allows money to grow tax deferred, while like an annuity it also pays Romney a steady income. After the funder’s death, the trust’s remaining assets go to a designated charity. Romney’s CRUT, which is only a small part of the $250 million that Romney’s campaign cites as his net worth, has been paying him 8 percent of its assets each year. As the Romneys have received these payments, the money that will potentially be left for charity has declined from at least $750,000 in 2001 to $421,203 at the end of 2011.
So, he puts money in the trust, claims that as a tax deduction/charitable contribution and THEN, he takes out 8% of the trust balance every year.
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| 718 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Nov 04, 2012, 23:53
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Just saw a FB update from a Romney supporter, crowing about Romney drawing 24,000 to a PA rally today while an Obama rally brought very, very few. They called it a "predictor for Tuesday."
While seems to mean that come Tuesday, Romney will be saying the wrong things to the wrong people. He's not going to win PA, that's for sure.
Meanwhile Obama was in 4 states on Sunday, drawing 23,000 to a Hollywood, FL rally the day after the largest political rally (14,000) in NH history.
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| 719 | Boldwin
ID: 48102099 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 12:12
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Bush 2004 won 80% of Mormons. Romney 2012 won 78% of Mormons.
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| 720 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 12:54
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Did Mitt's family forget to vote?
:)
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| 721 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 14:22
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Is there a source for 719?
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| 723 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 16:06
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I was hoping to see a comparison of Mormon turnout.
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| 724 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 19:56
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Never saw it coming.
“We went into the evening confident we had a good path to victory. I don’t think there was one person who saw this coming.”
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| 725 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 19:28
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Romney blames Obama's "gifts."
I think it is called "voting for your own best interest" and for more Americans Romney didn't make the sale. Probably as a result of selling out Hispanics, blacks, and all the non-white poor.
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| 726 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 19:41
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The "gifts" I am aware of, were the GOPs desire to eliminate Capital Gains tax, and cut the taxes for the uber wealthy by 20%. Then too, there was the gift to the defense industry, of $2,000,0000,000,000 in additional defense spending that Romney intended.
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| 728 | Boldwin
ID: 2811321220 Wed, Dec 12, 2012, 22:07
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As Breitbart News documented then, Romney misspoke on the stump when he said Jeep was going to move "all" of its production to China. But the commercial never claimed this. Rather, the ad merely stated something that was true -- that Obama sold Chrysler to an Italian company who was "going to build Jeeps in China." The facts: In 2010, Fiat, which owns Chrysler, announced it would begin building some Jeeps in China as early as 2014.Obama did bail out Chrysler, as the ad says. And as early as 2010, Fiat has been intending to build Jeeps in China, as a ChinaAutoWeb report from 2010 indicated:
BAIC-Jeep later evolved into the now-defunct Beijing Benz-Daimler Chrysler company. Ever since the Daimler-Chrysler alliance broke down in 2009, Chrysler has no productions in China. Now that Fiat, Chrysler’s new owner, has officially returned to China and began building factories, there will be Chinese-made Jeep SUVs again in as early as 2014.
In a recent interview, John Kett, vice president and CEO of Chrysler’s Asia-Pacific operations, confirmed this, echoing Fiat-Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne’s words that Fiat is to have a production capacity of 300,00 units a year in China within five years through its joint venture with GAC (Guangzhou Automobile Group Co.). And Changsha, the capital of Hunan province, will be the location of the production base.
Fiat may be the only major automakers that suffered heavy losses in China in recent years. After losing tens of millions US dollars, it stopped partnership with Nanjing Auto, now part of SAIC. It temed up with GAC in late 2009 to give the Chinese market one more try.
And just this weekend, Fiat's CEO Sergio Marchionne admitted the company had intentions of building jeeps in Europe as well. According to a Bloomberg News report:
To counter the severe slump in European sales, Marchionne is considering building Chrysler models in Italy, including Jeeps, for export to North America. The Italian government is evaluating tax rebates on export goods to help Fiat. Marchionne may announce details of his plan as soon as Oct. 30, the people said.
Even the liberal Mother Jones magazine admitted that "technically, every word" of Romney's ad was true.
There couldn't be a clearer proof that Polifact is a blatantly partisan and unworthy umpire of what is truthful, their picking this story as the lie of the year is all the proof you will ever need.
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| 729 | Tree
ID: 1910562515 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 02:05
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Even the liberal Mother Jones magazine admitted that "technically, every word" of Romney's ad was true.
taking words out of context, as you just did, is also lying. would have been nice if you'd provided the entire thought that included your above quoted words.
Technically, every word of this is true. Obama did force GM and Chrysler through a managed bankruptcy. Fiat did end up buying Chrysler. And Chrysler is thinking about building Jeeps in China. But remember my three-part test to judge how deceptive a statement is?
1. What was the speaker trying to imply? 2. What would it take to state things accurately? 3. How much would accuracy damage the speaker's point?
On this scale, Romney's ad rates about 9 out of 10 on the deceptiveness scale. He's obviously trying to imply that American jobs will be shipped overseas; stating things accurately would require wholesale revisions; and doing so would completely destroy Romney's point. But he doesn't care. He's got an election to win, and if scaring Ohio autoworkers is what it takes, then that's what it takes. It's truly nauseating.
you see Romney's lie as a non-lie, which is part of why you find your own lies acceptable.
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| 730 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 03:39
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Sounded like Romney himself in the campaign, where he took Obama speaking someone else's words in a speech and portrayed them as being Obama's. His excuse? "He said it."
It is a high school sophomore excuse. No wonder he lost.
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| 731 | Boldwin
ID: 2811321220 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 08:11
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Yeah, right. What Romney 'actually said was true', but it was still a lie because what he really implied was that Obama sucked, so it was really a lie...I see.
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| 734 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 08:36
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Their 2011 Lie of the Year was on the Democrats, for the oft-repeated claim that Republicans "voted to end Medicare".
As with the 2012 award, Politifact did not give Democrats a semantic pass for occasionally following the claim with "as we know it", even though that bit of wrangling might have made it similarly "technically true".
From the article which prompted Boldwin to call POlitifact blatantly partisan and [an] unworthy umpire of what is truthful:It’s not that President Obama and his campaign team were above falsehoods, either. Their TV ads distorted Romney’s positions on abortion and immigration to make them seem more extreme than they actually were. A pro-Obama super PAC even created an ad suggesting Romney was responsible for a woman’s death when her husband lost his job at a Bain-controlled company.
Chrysler was one of the companies that received billions in loans from the federal government. The government ended up forcing Chrysler into bankruptcy in 2009 when its debtholders couldn’t reach an agreement. Since Chrysler emerged from bankruptcy, the Italian car company Fiat has held a controlling interest.
But Chrysler was thinking of reviving the Jeep brand in key foreign markets, and like other American automakers, Chrysler preferred to build cars in the countries where it intended to sell them -- a common strategy to reduce tariffs and transport costs.
Bloomberg reported on Oct. 22 that the company was planning to restart production of Jeeps in China. The entirety of the Bloomberg report made it clear that Chrysler was considering expansion in China, not shuttering American production.
But one conservative news outlet seized on the report’s opening lines. The Washington Examiner’s Paul Bedard blogged on Oct. 25 about the Bloomberg story and incorrectly wrote that Jeep was "considering giving up on the United States and shifting production to China," a move that would "crash the economy in towns like Toledo, Ohio … ." The conservative Drudge Report then linked to Bedard’s post under the headline, "Jeep eyes shifting production to China."
Within hours, Chrysler spokesman Gualberto Ranieri responded on Chrysler’s company blog.
"Let’s set the record straight: Jeep has no intention of shifting production of its Jeep models out of North America to China," Ranieri wrote, adding, "A careful and unbiased reading of the Bloomberg take would have saved unnecessary fantasies and extravagant comments."
But later that night at a campaign stop in Defiance, Ohio, Romney added a new line to his stump speech:
"I saw a story today, that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China," he said, to boos from the audience. "I will fight for every good job in America. I’m going to fight to make sure trade is fair, and if it’s fair, America will win."
Reporters mentioned the mistake in their stories the next day, it lit up the Internet, and the liberal cable channel MSNBC attacked Romney for not knowing the facts.
Romney’s campaign didn’t retreat, though. It doubled down with a TV ad for Ohio voters that weekend:
"Who will do more for the auto industry? Not Barack Obama," the ad began, adding, "Obama took GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy and sold Chrysler to Italians who are going to build Jeeps in China. Mitt Romney will fight for every American job." A similar radio ad soon followed.
PolitiFact rated it Pants on Fire because it "strings together facts in a way that presents an wholly inaccurate picture."
Factcheck.org said Romney’s speech was "flat wrong" and the ad was misleading. The Washington Post’s Fact Checker gave the ad four Pinocchios, saying, "This ad shows that we have entered the final, desperate week of the campaign."
When pinned down with questions on the ad, the Romney team either dodged or defended the ad as literally accurate. Stuart Stevens, a senior adviser to Romney, told the New York Times, "It would be better if they expanded production in the U.S. instead of expanding in China." The automakers said that ignored common global trade practices.
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| 735 | Boldwin
ID: 2811321220 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 09:04
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Bottom line, Italian ownership, less American jobs.
Obama's 'solution' meant that one of my favorite brands will now be built by people who think this is a good looking powerful sports car...

...and after seeing that who cares where it is built?
No, that car won't make you look like Charlie Sheen or lead you to exciting times with that girl. That is what lying by implication looks like.
'American cars' shouldn't be built by government Fiat to look like that or be built by those people.
I rate Mitt Romney's comments decidedly true. Understated even. That was giving liberals a break by not telling the whole depth of the fiasco.
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| 736 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 09:11
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Of course it is. Now take your meds.
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| 737 | Boldwin
ID: 2811321220 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 10:00
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It was too much to ask that Obama sell it to...

Pull up in that and you might actually drive off with Catrinel.
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| 738 | Tree
ID: 1910562515 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 11:43
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Yeah, right. What Romney 'actually said was true', but it was still a lie because what he really implied was that Obama sucked, so it was really a lie...I see.
if you don't want to read the entire link - even one you provide - that's your business. sad business, but your business.
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| 739 | slug
ID: 167132313 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 12:04
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"I saw a story today, that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China"
Did he ever retract this false statement?
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| 740 | Boldwin
ID: 411191315 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 16:09
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He didn't include it in his ad, which was the issue being judged by Politifact.
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| 741 | Boldwin
ID: 411191315 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 16:20
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BTW here is the actual report Romney had seen in Bloombergs that morning.Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region. Now anyone calling his repetition of that basically word for word as' f-you dishonest', is just lying thru their blowhole themselves.
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| 742 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 17:09
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"I saw a story today, that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China"
Which is exactly the point they were trying to make in the ad.
Trying to imply otherwise is a fat lie. Doesn't even pass the smell test: Here's the truthful ad: "Obama sold Chrysler to Fiat, who in addition to running the plants here in Michigan and Ohio will be increasing production with new plants in China for that market."
Hmmm. Suddenly the truth doesn't put Obama in the kind of light they want. In fact, the ad only works with the kind of implication that so many people (including Chrysler) called out for being false.
The Far Right, so intent on historical revisionism, would have us now believe that Romney put millions of dollars at the last minute of a close campaign into an ad which was both silent about him and had nothing bad at all to say about Obama.
The people of Ohio didn't buy it.
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| 743 | slug
ID: 167132313 Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 10:01
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740: The ad, in a vacuum, is very misleading (as are many political ads). Once you include what was going on at the time and the Romney statement that preceded it (the genesis of the ad), the whole scenario becomes the "lie of the year". That's also what I understood the Politifact article to say (although the headline does blame just the ad) IMO, if the Romney camp retracts his false statement and then runs with the ad, I could buy it as just another political ad. But as it was done, it seems clear they were okay with lying rather than just misleading.
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| 744 | Boldwin
ID: 331138143 Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 11:33
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Reread the actual announcement Romney read in that morning's paper.
Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region.
Those weren't Romney's words, those were Fiat's.
You are going to tell me if you had been Romney in the same set of conditions, in Ohio, auto manufacturing a big deal in that state, the state a big deal in the election...
...and you read that in the paper and you don't run with it?
Coooooome oooooooon. Puhleeeeze.
You aren't gonna pull that out and read it on the stump? Every single time you would do that.
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| 745 | slug
ID: 167132313 Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 12:03
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In today's political arena, I have very little issue with Romney running with it. In his circumstances, I would probably do something similar. My problem is that within a few hours, Chrysler issued statements clarifying that no North American production was leaving for China. Instead of Romney back tracking a bit (or just letting it die), his team pushed ahead with a very misleading ad (IMO, at that point he lied).
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| 746 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Dec 14, 2012, 12:29
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They weren't interested in fact checking the very premise of their ad. These certainly aren't the kind of people we want trying to solve even more difficult problems.
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| 749 | DWetzel
ID: 59149910 Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 19:56
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Shame of that chief strategist to force himself upon a completely unwilling Romney. Imagine if Romney had used his CEO experience to actually hire a chief strategist.
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| 750 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 20:03
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Exactly. Romney's claim to fame was that he knew how to run a company. But his failures are directly tied to running a horribly disorganized campaign organization.
But much of GOP doesn't seem to see that the problem wasn't Romney, nor was it a Tea Party vs establishment Republicans feud. It was that the party is run by a bunch of hucksters, taking in millions of dollars in return for nothing, as strategists sell email lists to each other and organize "news" to keep the dollars flowing.
The current GOP base are suckers.
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| 751 | Boldwin
ID: 52137255 Mon, Feb 25, 2013, 07:19
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Coming from Romney's original claim to fame in the Republican Party, seeking to block Reagan for the Rockafeller wing what else could be expected? Just another stalking horse for the Dems' benefit.
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| 752 | Boldwin
ID: 252530 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 10:04
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David Weigel at Slate explains why Romney lost.
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| 753 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 10:16
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lol we've explained repeatedly why Romney lost...the GOPs message....sucks.
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| 754 | Boldwin
ID: 252530 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 10:34
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As you will note in that Slate piece, he refused to deliver the GOP message at every opportunity, just as he would have refused to administer conservative governance if he had won.
Amazingly he couldn't find anyone who wanted to come out and vote for him. If it wasn't for the anti-Obama votes he wouldn't have had any.
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| 755 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 11:42
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As you will note in the piece #753 above. The GOP message, delivered or not, sucked. THAT, is why he lost. Plain and simple.
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| 756 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 12:05
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He wasn't Tea Party enough, Sarge. That is their message and they are sticking to it.
Their theory is math-challenged, of course, but these kinds of revision theories aren't about the truth, but about making the Far Right feel better about their spanking loss.
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| 757 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 12:23
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They keep it up, they wont need to worry about "feeling better". They'll need to worry about getting too used to it.
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| 758 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 12:29
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Every loss merely reinforces their sense of supriority, oddly. But let's keep it up!
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