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| Posted by: boikin
- [532592112] Tue, Mar 06, 2012, 15:07
I am starting a new thread since when i went to self edit the last thread it took 5 minutes to get all the posts to load. |
| | | 1 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Mar 06, 2012, 15:36
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I don't think he needs to start a war to bolster his re-election chances.
I completely agree. Also, I think the popularity for a war with Iran with regular people is very, very low.
I do think that Israel is hoping to goad the US into taking out Iranian nuclear capability, however, and are not above manipulating Senators, Representatives, and conservative think tanks to make that happen.
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| | | 2 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Tue, Mar 06, 2012, 16:31
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The one thing Paul has said, which I absolutely agree with; is that this country can NOT afford another war atm. The money, just isnt there. That said, I also agree with Obama when he said our policy with Iran and nukes, is one of prevention, not containment.
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| | | 3 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 01:29
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Romney takes the big prizes of OH, VA, MA, and VT. Still some fight in Gingrich (who won GA, of course) and Santorum wins TN, ND, and OK.
Time for the candidates to get into delegate counting mode. Romney, despite the losses, still keeps adding delegates.
Meanwhile, I saw that "Mean" Jean Schmidt lost the GOP primary in OH.
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| | | 4 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 05:48
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I do think that Israel is hoping to goad the US into taking out Iranian nuclear capability, however, and are not above manipulating Senators, Representatives, and conservative think tanks to make that happen.
If a conservative had said that he'd be dogged by dark shadows of anti-semitism accusations and innuendos the rest of his days ala Pat Buchannan.
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| | | 5 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 05:53
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While I agree that it would be difficult to go to China hat in hand and ask for a loan for a war against their ally Iran...they'll prolly loan us enuff for 'The Great Society part II'.
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| | | 6 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 10:22
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If a conservative had said that...
Which is kinda the point, yes? The willingness of a foreign country to get elected officials here to turn on other elected leaders is virtually unheard of.
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| | | 7 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 10:23
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I do think that Israel is hoping to goad the US into taking out Iranian nuclear capability, however, and are not above manipulating Senators, Representatives, and conservative think tanks to make that happen.
If a conservative had said that he'd be dogged by dark shadows of anti-semitism accusations...
there's nothing even remotely anti-Semitic about that statement. it's simply politics at worth, and there's no questioning the Israeli lobby is a strong one.
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| | | 8 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 14:26
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Care to elaborate? Hollywood? 9/11?
Lol...you are the one who this very day tried to tar me with the ZOG brush for no reason whatsoever, but PD can say the Jews run the government and he's walking away scot-free. Naturally.
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| | | 9 | Tree
ID: 22233713 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 14:38
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i didn't try to tar you with any brush.
i just pointed out that your statements on Facebook (and subsequently ETSY, Groupon, Angry Birds, and the rest) being a CIA front were as ridiculous as those who claim ZOG is real. lose the paranoia, you'll feel better about yourself - i didn't accuse you of believing in ZOG in any way, shape, or form.
and what is there to elaborate further about than i already did - simply put, that statement wasn't anti-semetic. the implication as i understood it was not much more than politics as usual and the strength of the Israeli lobby.
i may be very pro-Israel, but there's no question how powerful her lobbying efforts are here in the US.
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| | | 10 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 15:01
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the Jews run the government
Really? Is this what you got from my statement?
I think, on Israeli policy, Israel runs the show. And I believe that is self-evident.
Has nothing to do with "the Jews."
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| | | 11 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 23:47
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Romney flip-flops on minimum wage hike
And here ius teh GOP's dilemma on this (and many other) topics:
The Wall Street Journal editorial page, the Club for Growth and several other major conservative players also slammed Romney's stance, arguing that raising the minimum wage makes small businesses less likely to hire workers. A 1993 study by the economists Alan Kruegernow President Barack Obama's top economic adviserand David Card found no such effect.
The facts, do not bear out the GOP contentions. Like tax cuts for the uber rich, leads to more jobs. NOT TRUE.
or tax cuts for the rich, leads to greater investment and growth and thus an increase in tax revenue. NOT TRUE.
or abstinence only education will reduce unwanted pregnancy amongst teens. NOT TRUE.
or...
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| | | 12 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 23:53
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A 1993 study by the economists Alan Krueger
...is always followed by the phrase NOT TRUE.
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| | | 13 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Wed, Mar 07, 2012, 23:57
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truth still causing you pain B?
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| | | 15 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Fri, Mar 09, 2012, 19:52
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OK, as I understand it, the GOP opposes the cobverage pf BC by insurance, for re;ligious reasons.
The Church, opposes BC becaiuse of "Gods Will". Right? If He intends ger to be pregnant, she will be and if He doesntm she wont be.
OK, given that God is all powerful, couldnt He make her pregnant despite the BC?
If pregnancy is part of his plan, then so too must be ED, right? So we should terminate all Viagra, Cialis, Levitra coverage.
If pregnancy and ED are part of His plan, wouldnt cancer, flu, broken limbs, etc etc etc ALL be part of the plan? Therefore, in the name of religious freedom, we should terminate the practice of medicine and close all health facilities across the nation. And since nothing would be covered, we should prohibit insurance in the first place. Right? Or, am I missing something?
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| | | 16 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Mar 09, 2012, 20:36
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It is far, far deeper than that, sarge. Certainly not enough to cover on a message board. Catholics are supposed to be open to, and practice, a life-affirming way of living. The use of contraception, for Catholics, is a way to physically or chemically prevent what is, at its heart, a life-affirming act.
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| | | 17 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Fri, Mar 09, 2012, 20:40
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sooooooooo, Viagra, Cialis, Levitra coverage for 73 yr old fellas with 68 yr old wives....THAT is "life affirming"?
just sayin...
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| | | 18 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Mar 09, 2012, 21:06
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Yer not sayin anything.
Things that help a married couple in their sexual lives together are life-affirming. Things that prevent pregnancy are not.
Again-this is far deeper and will take some study for you to fully understand. This isn't a slap at you about it--this is a deeply theological point.
What I would ask is if you avoid the simple bumper sticker-like posts until you know enough about what is actually taught in Catholic theology to reply intelligently about it.
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| | | 19 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Fri, Mar 09, 2012, 22:02
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I grasp the point PD. But I also grasp the theory of equality between the genders. Too, there is then the apparent dichotomy for GOP Catholics, in the GOPs blanket support of the DP.
Finally, since an overwhelming number of Catholic women in this country ALREADY use BC; I think the religious point to its contrary, is like closing the barn door right after the horses escaped. Rather moot.
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| | | 20 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Fri, Mar 09, 2012, 22:34
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The fact that Catholic females do or do not take birth control isn't relevant. The fact that birth control would probably lead to reduced health care costs for the organizations is also not relevant. The fact that the Catholic churches stance on birth control is based on their religious beliefs is the only thing that matters.
I would support the law if it was that they had to provide birth control for medical reasons other than birth control (which many already do.)
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| | | 21 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Fri, Mar 09, 2012, 22:55
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Obama has ready said that the Church may "opt out" of the BC coverage, yes?
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| | | 22 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Mar 10, 2012, 00:02
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That's right. The compromise actually addressed the bishops' original stance. But now they are arguing something like the fact that the federal laws that require them to buy prescription drugs in drugstores is against their religious freedom because those stores also sell condoms.
In other words, their money for coverage goes to insurance companies who provide contraception coverage to other people, and that is wrong. According to the revised, revised stance.
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| | | 23 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sat, Mar 10, 2012, 00:13
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Well, then like the GOP attack on PP, claiming that any monies paid went partially to overhead and thus indirectly to abortion services; the same would hold true (still) then for virtually every hospital in the nation.
Following the logic that "X" is also available in that building so we can not condone entry to the building; so too, must they bar entry to a hospital.
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| | | 24 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sat, Mar 10, 2012, 00:14
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"entry" is overly broad...payment, would be more accurate and still maintains the absurdity of the "revised revised" position.
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| | | 25 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sat, Mar 10, 2012, 00:23
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Maybe I'm too far removed for the Church to understand the position. Sorry if I wrote this already, I've been thinking about it for a while. But a basic tenet of the faith is that we were granted free will, right? God put the tree in the garden and even pointed it out to Eve and Adam, leaving the choice to them, right? Who are the clergy supposed to emulate? Opportunities for sin are in every inch an every moment of this world. Where is it written that they are to smother the faithful away from the possibility of temptation. If they pay their employees with currency which may be used to purchase the tools and services of sin anyway, what is the difference?
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| | | 26 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sat, Mar 10, 2012, 00:28
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You and I MITH, are I think both being too pragmatic. We both are looking at it about the same way I think, but not paying sufficient 'reverence" to the theologic theory. (I think. lol)
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| | | 27 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Mar 10, 2012, 00:30
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Well, if you believe contraception is wrong, then it doesn't make any sense to have your insurance company pay for it.
The Church, IMO, was entirely right that they should not be forced to pay for contraception for its employees. That argument was entirely answered by the compromise.
The free will comes from the fact that Catholics can, indeed, make the choice on their own. But forcing the Church to cover the cost of contraception takes free will out of it.
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| | | 28 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sat, Mar 10, 2012, 00:33
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and if there is no cost PD? Then what?
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| | | 29 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Mar 10, 2012, 00:41
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I'm not sure exactly why you are being argumentative, nor your goal here. The result seems to be that you are skimming my posts.
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| | | 30 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sat, Mar 10, 2012, 01:00
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Not at all. I am asking the counter-question to your statement, they shouldnt have to pay the cost. I happen to agree with that, in that it would/does violate their religious tenants. However, if there IS no cost.....(which according to the Guttenmacher Study, there is in fact a net savings)
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| | | 31 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 15:46
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Why are you blocking common sense, Sarge? It is not within the government's constitutional power to force a religion to violate their moral code.
Not even if you can raise or lower the cost of doing so. Not even if you can make it free. Not even if you can make it profitable for them to violate their moral code.
Not even if you think their moral code disadvantages women and children, oh my.
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| | | 32 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 16:23
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And B, read my post 30 again. You know, the one where I said the church has the right to not violate their religious tenants.
I am playing devils advocate here, trying to entice the full response. I am getting pieces of it from PD, pieces of it from Frick, pieces of it from the various religious figures across the country. I am waiting, for the response to be coallated, and put together into a singular, clear, position.
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| | | 33 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 18:17
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"Why are you blocking common sense, Sarge? It is not within the government's constitutional power to force a religion to violate their moral code."
Bullshit. We do this all the time. Usually they're with the more 'fringy' religions that do 'really weird stuff'. But we do it all the time nonetheless.
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| | | 34 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 19:35
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I am no slouch when it comes to knowing about other people's religions. I have to address their specific doctrines on a daily basis and I have to be prepared.
I am not aware of the government running roughshod over religious conscience...
...until the recent failure to respect the consciences of pharmacists, except for certain DCFS cases and until Obamacare I really think this country was exemplary on this issue.
Indian religions get drug use exemptions. Christian Scientists aren't forced to undergo procedures nor are Jehovah's Witnesses.
What jackbooted government/medical dictatorship have you seen?
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| | | 35 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 19:43
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Well, the obvious example would be Mormons and polygamy. Though, in their case they decided to change the religion rather than fight the law.
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| | | 36 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 22:26
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| | | 37 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 22:39
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Cant recall the ladies name, on Bill Maher today. She mentioned that Santorum says sex should be between a man and wife ONLY, and even then, ONLY for purposes of procreation. Her idea? For all the women of the country to say "OK fine", and then see how long before the GOP changes its tune.
My guess? A week, tops.
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| | | 39 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 18:46
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Ignorance. In many cases, willful ignorance.
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| | | 40 | Baldwin
ID: 53257130 Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 03:01
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DWetz
This country's historic heavy-handedness towards the Mormons is indeed an exception, maybe the exception which proves the rule. The jackboots eventually get beaten down in the supreme court or the court of public opinion.
Both in the case of Missouri? which once went to open warfare against them for a while and Texas which went to war against the FLDS sect a year ago, religious tolerance tends to win out in this country.
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| | | 41 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 10:30
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The other obvious example, though I hesitate to bring it up, is that I don't exactly see widespread support for letting Muslims use Sharia law in place of government law.
And remember, for the purposes of this discussion, "but Sharia law is evil/barbaric/discriminatory" has no place -- even though I'd somewhat agree with those sentiments -- since the relevant question is "are we letting religious freedom go totally unrestricted or not". I believe the relevant words are "not even if it disadvantages women and children, oh my".
Hell, we had a massive fight on this board about a year ago about whether the Muslim cleric should be able to build a mosque near Ground Zero, with the right wing generally in support of using all the governmental power possible to stop them.
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| | | 42 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 12:01
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Sharia law is very similar, in size and scope, with halacha which governs a wide range of private contracts and is utilized (like sharia) as religiously-based mediation.
There is a fear that sharia will start deciding criminal court cases, but that's not how it is used here and there is no danger that law in which the State is a part (virtually all criminal law, for instance) sharia law will play any part at all.
There is, in fact, some degree of truth that banning sharia law completely infringes upon the religious freedom of muslims in this country to decide private matters between their own members in ways that the private members agree to be bound by.
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| | | 43 | DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 12:52
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"There is, in fact, some degree of truth that banning sharia law completely infringes upon the religious freedom of muslims in this country to decide private matters between their own members in ways that the private members agree to be bound by."
This is more or less what I was getting at, yes.
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| | | 44 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 13:29
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| | | 46 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 02:01
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bad link PD. Goes to the poli baseball thread lol..feel free to moderate and delete this, once you see it. :)
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| | | 47 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 08:22
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Ugh, how do people manage to contort issues so much? The AZ bill is the type of crap that is driving the independents from the Republican party.
At this point I almost hope that Santoroum gets the nomination to that the Republican party might have to evaluate its future after the beat down Obama would put on Santoroum.
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| | | 48 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 10:30
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Sorry: Better link.
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| | | 49 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 14:57
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Please, please let these catch fire on the Right:
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| | | 50 | Tree
ID: 412461516 Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 17:48
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classy.
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| | | 51 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 13:27
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TX loses federal funding over Planned Parenthood law
I am totally baffled, how a female can in todays political climate, support the GOP.
The Department of Health and Human Services announced on Thursday that it will cut off all Medicaid funding for family planning to the state of Texas, following Gov. Rick Perry's (R) decision to implement a new law that excludes Planned Parenthood from the state's Medicaid Women's Health Program.
And this is the guy the GOP turned to instead of Romney, when it looked like Bachmann would be the alternative????????
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| | | 52 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 13:39
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Santorum wants to ban hard core porn
Aside from the obvious 1st Amendment issues; ahs anyone told him about the Beta-Max vs VHS format wars, and why Beta lost, despite being a superior format? SONY, wouldnt license porn on Beta, and the marketplace overwhelmingly went VHS. In the Blu-Ray vs HD wars, SONY did not get all self righteous, and the Blu-Ray format emerge victorious. Lesson? In the American free market, porn wins. With this, Santorum loses...period.
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| | | 54 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 14:44
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You got sniped by PD in the Santorum thread. Good try though.
Thank goodness for the party of small government, lol. (At least they can put all the money they won't spend on food stamps and health care to good use chasing down porn videos so they can burn them.)
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| | | 55 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sat, Mar 17, 2012, 01:08
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Texas files suit against the Administration
"This is about life and the rule of law, which Texas respects and the Obama administration does not," Texas Governor Rick Perry, a former Republican presidential candidate, said in a statement on Friday. ... The conflict began when the Texas Legislature inserted a "poison pill" into the Medicaid funding bill passed in 2011, which mandates that no funding under the program go to any facility that provides abortion services, even if no state money directly paid for abortions.
If the federal government did not agree to the waiver, the language requires that the program be discontinued."
Looks to me, like TX is ignoring it's own law which calls for terminating the program Perry is activating, since the Feds dont agree with it.
Also, absolutely LOVED this comment from a Scottsdale, AZ poster:
Christian ant-abortionists arguing to close Planned Parenthhod because of abortion would be like Jews wanting close down every Safeway grocery store because they sell pork.
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| | | 57 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 14:04
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easy to talk the talk, not so easy to walka the walk
Michael Kobulnicky, spokesperson for the San Diego Tea Party, has been arrested for rape and assault. ... Four days ago Kobulnicky endorsed a national boycott of Red Bull: "Don't buy Red Bull. Look at what they think about Jesus. There is such an attack against Christianity now and hopefully Christians stand up for what they believe".
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| | | 58 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 14:13
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well, there you go. if we go by the Baldwinian Law of Association, it's pretty clear that all Tea Party members are Jesus Lovin' Rapists.
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| | | 59 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 17:32
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Prolly an OWS plant.
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| | | 60 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 20:55
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Prolly an OWS plant.
:: eye roll :: what an idiotic statement.
Kobulnicky was spreading the Tea Party message long before OWS existed.
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| | | 61 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 21:03
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That's just the Soros-funded time machine doing its evil work.
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| | | 63 | Tree
ID: 592501910 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 11:57
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you realize the argument here you'll get is "it's mild compared to the pain that baby has to go through before it is murdered", right?
all this is well and good. as more and more on the right wage war against women (not to mention totally irrelevant things like pornography), they further marginalize themselves.
i'm ok with this.
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| | | 64 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 11:59
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At the expense of decency? It is all well and good when an extreme party immolates, but I'd rather call them on this, which is neither compassionate nor christian for that matter.
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| | | 66 | slug
ID: 112342216 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 17:34
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"We cant keep spending money we dont have"
Isn't that the whole point of the sequester?
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| | | 67 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 17:49
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Except when it comes to the military, it seems. Then there are no limits.
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| | | 68 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 18:04
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or tax cuts for the wealthy. Those always work too.
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| | | 69 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 11:11
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This bodes ill for American competitiveness, and the GOP wants to make it worse with more cuts to higher education.
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| | | 71 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 11:22
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You can't teach gumption in an ivory tower, bili.
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| | | 72 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 13:25
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50 states, most with a Univ of and an XYZ State public college. Thats 100 public colleges and universities. You want to whine abouot 14 private colleges, with a higher than normal default rate on higher than avg student loan balances AND attribute those balances and defaults to unsubastantiated claims.
Weak Boldwin, even for you of late, that piece is gawd-awful weak.
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| | | 73 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 13:38
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Obama is partners with the same cast of rogues who drove down America and made off like bandits.
Those same guys who sold America short are now betting Obama can destroy private higher education in favor of the public indoctrination centers.Open Society Institute, the grant-making arm of left-wing billionaire George Soross empire, supported groups advocating tighter regulation of for-profit higher education institutions...
...Steve Eisman, a money manager with Morgan Stanley who made a large sum of money short-selling subprime mortgages, has bet that for-profit colleges will lose federal subsidies...
...CREW uncovered emails detailing the all-too-cozy dealings between supporters of the crackdown like Eisman and the Soros-backed think-tanks and the Obama education department.
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| | | 74 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 13:40
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Which if we had a watchdog media would turn out to be illegal and scandalous to the point of impeachment.
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| | | 75 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 14:40
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Walgreens called, your anti-hallucination prescription refill is still waiting to be picked up.
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| | | 76 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 14:54
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Look out for those content-free, "all-too-cozy dealings."
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| | | 80 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 05:32
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Yeah right, how many more districts do you want with more voters than citizens? How many more Al Franken stolen elections? How many elections decided by Mickey Mouse's vote?
You want as many fraudulent elections as possible.
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| | | 81 | bibA
ID: 4057177 Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 09:13
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Shame on you Perm!
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| | | 82 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 10:57
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Heh.
Boldwin, meanwhile, thinks this is a meme death match.
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| | | 83 | sarge33rd
ID: 13325518 Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 12:43
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stolen elections? You mean like GWBs election to the WH, when the public cast more votes for Gore than Bush, but the court which decided, wasin the same state as Bush's brother was governor? You mean THAT kind of 'stolen"?
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| | | 84 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 20:27
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Wait, you mean in our election system the winner isn't that man (or woman) with the most votes? When was this system implemented?
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| | | 86 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 10:07
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Yeah, because employers have unlimited funds to pay off every disgruntled ex-employee because it's cheaper to pay them off than win the case outright and pay for the whole process to play out in court.
Just like taxpayers have unlimited funds in a liberal minds' eye.
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| | | 87 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 13:11
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I guess reading the article was beyond you. Funny how, if you had done that first, your response wouldn't have made you look stupid.
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| | | 88 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 13:17
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I guess if you had the capacity to fairly hear out the reasons for the bill you might actually understand that it is not an attack on women.
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| | | 89 | sarge33rd
ID: 13325518 Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 14:57
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roflmfao 88 is a grand example of unintended-ironic humor.
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| | | 90 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 18:22
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Heh.
I actually read the article, in which one of the sponsors gave his reason. Reminded me of the GOP's attack on "vote fraud": He genuinely holds to be true things which are actually false.
Boldwin still hasn't read the article, but comments twice on it. All you need to know about his the Far Right deals with the issues. He knows what he knows, and that is enough to comment on virtually anything.
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| | | 91 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 21:56
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You evidently think presumptuousness is a virtue. I read it. Evidently you think you have so much support you can float any accusation and make it stick.
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| | | 92 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 22:00
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And the funny thing is you could care less about this fatuous invented 'war on women'.
For you it's just one more day you can distract people from the lack of accomplishment of the Obama administration because you can't campaign on that record.
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| | | 93 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 22:03
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Come on PD, we all know that Boldwin reads more about any subject in a day then the rest of us are awake.
I'm not sure why the headlines are making this into a anti-women campaign other than it fits the current anti-Republican headlines lately. The bill addressed all kinds of discrimination.
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| | | 94 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 00:00
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I read it.
So you either noted that the article says the opposite of your point about lawsuits is the truth but posted your talking point anyway, or posted the talking point, then read the artcle you were refuting with it after.
Either way--nice.
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| | | 95 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 05:15
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I read it. The problem with it is that everything liberals say about anything is misleading.
Like that classic mandatory poster in every breakroom pronouncing the percentage of their paycheck women are being cheated out of compared to men. Which just aint so.
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| | | 96 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 05:23
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So in this particular case liberals want to divide America up into competing victim groups suing over perceived unfairness and discrimination in society against them, and then hand disgruntled employees a million dollar gun to hold to the head of employers.
A $300,000 fine and the legal fees to fight the case.
Facing that employers will either be forced to fire no one and put up with any behavior and lack of performance whatsoever or be forced to make no hires.
No way to run a country and an economy. Especially now. But being against that is a war on women. Sure it is.
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| | | 98 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 09:49
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So any disagreement with Obama is not ok? Was that rule waived when Bush was in office? Also, he didn't exactly call Obama stupid. But it does make the headline more offensive, so go with it.
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| | | 99 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 10:10
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So any disagreement with Obama is not ok? Was that rule waived when Bush was in office? Also, he didn't exactly call Obama stupid.
where did i say disagreeing with Obama was not ok? there isn't a person on this board who doesn't disagree with Obama on something.
i don't think a standing elected senator should be calling the POTUSA "stupid". it's a matter of respect.
and what about his words - "Bcause Am ppl r not stupid as this x prof of con law" are not exactly call(ing) Obama stupid?
i realize it's half-literate twitterspeak, but he VERY CLEARLY called Obama stupid.
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| | | 100 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 10:39
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I misread (not exactly hard) his statement earlier as "American people are not as stupid as this" instead of "American people are not stupid as this"
Minor change, but it slightly changes the context. I agree that he was calling the President stupid.
That doesn't change the fact that 4 years ago the right was screaming that the left should respect the President. Just pointing out that the outrage seems to depend on who is being mocked.
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| | | 101 | Tree
ID: 8321910 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 11:27
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That doesn't change the fact that 4 years ago the right was screaming that the left should respect the President.
i classify the American public, and elected officials, in two different categories. while i personally thought (and expressed) that I felt GW Bush was a moron, i would not have appreciated my senators using the same tone and language.
(that being said, i do think Bush honestly believed he was doing the right thing for the country. he just happened to be wrong)
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| | | 102 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 12:54
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| | | 103 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 13:41
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Tree it would appear that an easy search finds senators calling Bush names like "Loser" and "Unpatriotic", i guess you forgot to post your out rage?
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| | | 105 | Tree
ID: 42325913 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 14:30
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Tree it would appear that an easy search finds senators calling Bush names like "Loser" and "Unpatriotic", i guess you forgot to post your out rage?
you're right. i apologize for not calling out every single issue that pops up every single second of every single minute of every single hour of every single day of every single week of every single fortnight of every single month of every single year.
personal insults such as "stupid" and "loser" are wrong now, as they were wrong then.
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| | | 106 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 18:25
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*roll*
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| | | 107 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Apr 18, 2012, 11:39
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| | | 109 | Boldwin
ID: 48351195 Sat, Apr 21, 2012, 19:36
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Gasoline prices are lower than they were a year ago in 11 states.
Let's see, how would an adversarial press rephrase that to more accurately reflect the truth?
Whoever wrote that should apply for some Obama money if he wins in Nov.
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| | | 110 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Apr 21, 2012, 19:54
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Yeah, demonstrating that the average gas price nationwide is down is "pro-Obama." Nice try at the spin.
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| | | 111 | Mith
ID: 37838313 Sat, Apr 21, 2012, 21:23
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Funny I'm pretty sure I heard it phrased the same way on FNC today.
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| | | 112 | Boldwin
ID: 48351195 Sat, Apr 21, 2012, 23:27
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If Bush were running for re-election the story would read, 'Gasoline prices are higher than they were a year ago in 39 of the 50 states.'
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| | | 113 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sat, Apr 21, 2012, 23:28
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Actually, if Bush were running for office, headlines would be "GOP tries to defy Federal Law by running a candidate for a 3rd Presidential term"
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| | | 114 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Apr 22, 2012, 13:21
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'Gasoline prices are higher than they were a year ago in 39 of the 50 states.'
Actually, in a number of states they are the same, not higher.
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| | | 115 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, Apr 22, 2012, 14:39
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Actually, in a number of states they are the same, not higher.
he didn't read the article. you haven't figured this out by now.
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| | | 116 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Apr 25, 2012, 13:43
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Something to learn from European economic efforts?
While the hard Right would have us looking toward Greece, a far better example is the UK, whose recovery was tracking our almost exactly. Until they instituted austerity measures too early.
Here's a story you won't hear on FOX.
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| | | 117 | Tree
ID: 363222611 Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 12:23
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without having actual issues it can argue, it seems the GOP will once again, invent issues...
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| | | 118 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 15:31
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Re 1116: so what is Europe's excuse for having there recovery drop off at the same time as the UK's.
Plus it should be quite obvious that debt reduction is a false campaign since neither side is actually serious about reducing the debt.
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| | | 119 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 15:35
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The Euro Zone has remained pretty flat. In fact, their recovery continued past the UK's before doing so, after being more or less even with the UK since the beginning of the recession.
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| | | 120 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 15:36
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The Dems are less serious about debt reduction when doing so will hurt the recovery if not done very slowly.
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| | | 121 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 16:24
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so the rest of europe laged the UK by a bit? this is weak evidence that austerity measures are what halted the UK's growth, probably why this story is not getting much traction.
The Dems are less serious about debt reduction when doing so will hurt the recovery if not done very slowly.
and when is that? I mean the arguement can be made that the country is permanent recovery, how many times have you heard, do not pass that bill or the country will be thrown into recession.
No politician gains by spending less(or taxing more), it is like willfully giving up power. there will be no serious discussion about debt reduction till they see the country at the edge and even then they will probably just start a war. Look at Greece they are the edge and what do you see protests about cutting government spending?
Honestly if you had to guess what % of the debt will get paid off in the next 20 years?
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| | | 122 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 16:38
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Looking at the chart, the UK has gone down while the Euro Zone has stayed flat. This isn't the same as saying there is a lag.
As for debt reduction, the best (and easiest) time to do that is when tax receipts start picking up in a recovering economy. We're not at that point yet.
No politician gains by spending less(or taxing more)
Sure. But my two word rebuttal to your pessimism: Bill Clinton.
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| | | 123 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 17:03
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PD sounds like you are reading a lot out of that graph. it looks to me they are both flat, unless you are talking about last quarter in which case both the uk and Europe are down and Europe is down at steeper rate so I guess they are doing worse? If I were to interpret anything from it, it would be that US has is doing much better than Europe and UK has to wonder why they fell so far after 2007(I am guessing due to London's reliance on the finance industry for income).
It is all pointless anyways since for all I know all three countries are within the error.
No politician gains by spending less(or taxing more)
Sure. But my two word rebuttal to your pessimism: Bill Clinton.
Good point, then again how many members of that congress that passed those bills lasted? And his polices were so well like that his vice president was defeated.
You still have answered the question:
Honestly if you had to guess what % of the debt will get paid off in the next 20 years?
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| | | 124 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 17:09
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And his polices were so well like that his vice president was defeated
His vice president was defeated because he specifically ran away from the policies of the Clinton Administration, and froze our Clinton from helping him the campaign.
With the GOP in charge of the House, I seriously doubt anything will be paid off in 20 years. With a Democratic House, I would predict at least half, or more.
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| | | 125 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 20:52
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Didn't Gore lose his home state? How often has that happened? And has it ever happened when the candidate won?
Wait, are you predicting that with a Democratic House that half of the current outstanding debt will be paid off in 20 years?
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| | | 126 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 22:08
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Gore did lose TN. IMO, he lost the entire election because he refused to talk about the work he'd been doing the previous 8 years. Just one example: He headed up Clinton's NPRG which helped shrink the size of agencies and instituted private sector management practices, including goal setting and automatic project cancellations when target goals weren't reached.
Yes: With a Democratic House, I believe debt level will be half of what it is right now in 20 years.
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| | | 127 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Apr 27, 2012, 11:17
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I think what PD is actually saying is that he does not think the democrats will control the house for any large portions of the next 20 years and in fact the debt will be about the same as it now. Assuming this is what he is thinking I agree for the most part. Now does he actually think it will go down by half if the democrats were control can never be tested, and he could actually say the debt would be gone in 20 years. The truth is mathematically it is probably nearly impossible to cut the debt in half in 20 years, given that we would have to spend nearly 10% of GDP per year to pay it down. Which if I did the math correct would be the same as doubling taxes or cutting expenses to 0 or some some combination.
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| | | 128 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Apr 27, 2012, 11:25
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Most of it depends upon tax revenue, boikin. The GOP wants to reduce tax revenue (despite our tax rates being at almost-historic lows). Tax revenue will increase without the government doing anything as the economy gets going again.
I don't think the Dems will take back the House this year, however. And as long as the House GOP is held hostage to the math-challenged Tea Party wing we'll continue to not make any progress on the debt.
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| | | 129 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Apr 27, 2012, 12:58
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PD but tax revenues need to double and spending remain constant that equates to the GDP doubling, no matter what the recovery is that is not going to happen. I don't think the tea party is the only one that math-challenged, run the numbers and you will see that without major tax increases, reduction in spending, and high inflation there is no way you can cut the debt in half in 20 years.
I do agree the GOP is not going to make a dent but neither are the Dems. Honestly I am not sure I care as long as they can at least keep it from growing and maybe make a little head way in reduction.
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| | | 130 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Fri, Apr 27, 2012, 13:25
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as the economy recovers, slow as that may seem, entitlement spending will drop by virtue of reduced unemployment benefits, reduced food stamp enrollment, reduced medic-aid enrollment. Revenue would increase via a growth in the base of tax payers. If The ACA is allowed to stand, then there will be a reduction in government spending there as well. I havent run the numbers, but wouldnt those declines, go along ways toward reducing spending as is desired BY the GOP and Dems alike?
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| | | 131 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Apr 27, 2012, 14:08
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#129: I didn't say that the naturally increased tax revenues from the economic recovery alone would do it. I believe increased tax rates need to happen as well (and it is only the Democrats who would raise taxes to, say, Clinton-era levels).
One party wants to reduce the debt through increased tax revenue at a time and among a group best able to pay it, in conjunction with a recovery helped along by the government. The other wants to slash tax revenue even further, while holding onto pet projects, increasing military spending, and doing nothing for the massive health care costs the government spends.
Right now the GOP rejected the Buffett rule specifically because it would "only" raise $47 billion over ten years.
I understand your pragmatic stance on who does the work to get it done. But the GOP has no plan to get it done, except to yell about it when debt reduction would most harm the recovery.
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| | | 132 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Apr 27, 2012, 14:08
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No, I don't think people grasp just how big the numbers are it wont be fixed by giving up Lattes. Its more like I have to live on the street and get a second job type problem.
I want to change my mind here a bit and agree a bit with PD on the dems doing a better job. While I don't think that means they would cut the debt in half I do think they probably would if nothing else compromise more often then the GOP, mostly because there are still some moderates left in the party. This would hopefully lead to some progress.
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| | | 133 | Boldwin
ID: 48351195 Sat, Apr 28, 2012, 10:54
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a recovery helped along by the government.
The definition of 'unclear on the concept'.
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| | | 134 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Apr 28, 2012, 11:13
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Projecting won't help you look any smarter. Which shouldn't be hard to do given the low bar you are starting with on this issue.
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| | | 135 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Apr 28, 2012, 23:19
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Washington Post: Let's Just Say It: Republicans Are the Problem
Money quote:
The GOP has become an insurgent outlier in American politics. It is ideologically extreme; scornful of compromise; unmoved by conventional understanding of facts, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition.
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| | | 136 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sun, Apr 29, 2012, 12:14
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BINGO!
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| | | 137 | Boldwin
ID: 48351195 Sun, Apr 29, 2012, 13:51
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From those unbiased editorial writers from the Washington Post who brought you Watergate.
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| | | 138 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sun, Apr 29, 2012, 13:56
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Gee, and I thought Nixon was behind Watergate, not the journalists at the local paper.
137 is stunning proof of the FAR rights, refusal to accept the facts.
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| | | 139 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sun, Apr 29, 2012, 14:47
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| | | 140 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Mon, Apr 30, 2012, 15:21
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Steven King, slapping the GOP sideways
Heard it all before. At a rally in Florida (to support collective bargaining and to express the socialist view that firing teachers with experience was sort of a bad idea), I pointed out that I was paying taxes of roughly 28 percent on my income. My question was, How come Im not paying 50? The governor of New Jersey did not respond to this radical idea, possibly being too busy at the all-you-can-eat cheese buffet at Applebees in Jersey City, but plenty of other people of the Christie persuasion did.
Cut a check and shut up, they said.
If you want to pay more, pay more, they said.
Tired of hearing about it, they said.
Tough shit for you guys, because Im not tired of talking about it. Ive known rich people, and why not, since Im one of them? The majority would rather douse their dicks with lighter fluid, strike a match, and dance around singing Disco Inferno than pay one more cent in taxes to Uncle Sugar.
Talk about "telling it like it is".
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| | | 141 | Tree
ID: 13283016 Mon, Apr 30, 2012, 17:29
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What the Frack!?!!?
Al Armendariz, the Environmental Protection Agency official at the center of a budding scandal surrounding a 2010 video in which he said the EPA should "crucify" polluters, has resigned.
why exactly should he have resigned? and why did he?
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| | | 142 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, May 01, 2012, 10:47
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Seems like he was making a valid point, even if you don't agree with EPA regulations, you have agree with his point about how to make people follow the law.
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| | | 143 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Tue, May 01, 2012, 20:02
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5 Fallacies Invented by the 1%'ers
We hear these claims often, even though theyre entirely false. An analysis of the facts should make that clear.
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| | | 144 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Tue, May 01, 2012, 20:15
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| | | 145 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 02, 2012, 11:38
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Re 143: I think you should change that title to I can not actually disprove these things so I will make up my own fallacies and then disprove them.
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| | | 146 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Wed, May 02, 2012, 11:42
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I think you should reread the article. Strikes me, as pretty spot on
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| | | 147 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 02, 2012, 16:08
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lets do, myth 1:
(1) The Rich Pay Almost All the Taxes
how does he disprove this? by saying that rich pay the same % of their income in taxes as the middle class, guess what that is not what the myth is saying, and you know why it does not try and disprove that myth because its not a myth.
need we go on?
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| | | 148 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, May 02, 2012, 16:19
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I agree. It might be a myth, but it isn't being disproved by what he is saying.
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| | | 149 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Wed, May 02, 2012, 17:26
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The headline for that section is incomplete. The myth is that "The Rich Pay Almost All the Taxes and Thus They Should Not Be Raised." The article explains that the middle class is paying roughly the same percentage in total taxes that the rich are, meaning that the progressive income tax structure we have put in place is not creating the desired effect and it should be slightly more progressive on the top end.
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| | | 150 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, May 03, 2012, 01:28
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You gotta love Shep Smith--about the only reason to watch FOX anymore is that sometimes Smith will just go off script and into reality for a bit:
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| | | 151 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, May 05, 2012, 17:19
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I've been focusing lately on how the US Catholic Bishops have had sex and power on the brain, so when they actually follow their mandate of protecting the poor I should give them a shout out:
Catholic Bishops school Paul Ryan on his budget.
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| | | 152 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sat, May 05, 2012, 17:42
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money quote in my minds eye PD:
Even Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesars.
Now, how does the GOP reconcile that, their position re taxes, with their claim to moral superiority in Christianity?
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| | | 153 | Baldwin
ID: 46429712 Mon, May 07, 2012, 13:59
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The belief that somewhere near 100% income belongs to Caesar does not have a biblical basis.
The GOP does not encourage the shirking of any legally owed tax.
The injunction, 'Caesar's things to Caesar' has not been violated by the GOP platform.
However you might want to have a talk with noted tax cheats in the Dem party like Tim Geitner. You might also have a convo with Warren Buffet who ingratiated himself in with Obama. Warren poses as if he wished he paid more, while fighting his tax bills.
Democratic Tax Cheats Outnumber Republican, 72% v. 28%
A better question would have been, 'Why can't Democrats walk the walk?' Why would anyone believe they themselves have any interest in paying their fair share?
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| | | 154 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Mon, May 07, 2012, 14:04
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The better question, is why does the GOP think, "Ceasars share" should be zero?
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| | | 155 | Baldwin
ID: 46429712 Mon, May 07, 2012, 14:11
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Do you think Caesar makes his way into God's kingdom?
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| | | 156 | Baldwin
ID: 46429712 Mon, May 07, 2012, 14:14
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To answer you directly, 'Because it works best for everyone'.
Poor people are better off living in a non-socialist system. Everyone is better off living in a non-socialist system.
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| | | 157 | Baldwin
ID: 46429712 Mon, May 07, 2012, 14:17
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If only we had one.
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| | | 158 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Mon, May 07, 2012, 15:05
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taxes, are not the defining element of socialism. And as far as your entirely self-serving and erroneous statement of "everyone is better off";
1) try telling that to people who were 70, prior to soc sec existing, or someone who is still in their home, due to their unempl check, or someone who has food for their kids because of the food stamps, or ... 2) by what all knowing authority, do YOU determine what is best for "everyone" 3) by what power, do you believe you can correctly make that determination, free of self-serving (and thereby self-defeating) influences
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| | | 159 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, May 07, 2012, 16:04
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Poor people are better off living in a non-socialist system
sarge is right that you have a faulty definition of "socialism." Nevertheless, this is an incredibly stupid thing to say--and your prior complaint against "socialism" isn't that poor people are worse under it, but the opposite: that many people, sucking at the teat of government, cause dependency by living off their "entitlements".
Hard to argue both of those things. But I'm sure you'll try.
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| | | 160 | Tree
ID: 57413715 Mon, May 07, 2012, 16:21
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Do you think Caesar makes his way into God's kingdom?
and this is relevant, how?
A better question would have been, 'Why can't Democrats walk the walk?'
because, of course, a sampling size of 25 tax cheats is such a board overview.
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| | | 161 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, May 07, 2012, 16:24
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re 159 actually you can argue both look the USSR you ended up with place where everyone was worse off and were unmotivated to work harder.
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| | | 162 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Mon, May 07, 2012, 16:50
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not 'everyone' was worse off. The failure in communism, is that someone has to be responsible for doling out the communal property. That someone, will inevitably display the human trait of greed, and keep more than their share. Capitalism, ironically, has the same failing. Those at the top of the economic food chain, display the trait of greed, and keep more than their share. (underpay employees for ex, demand greater output w/o granting increased wages)
It isnt the "system" that fails, its the people within.
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| | | 163 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, May 07, 2012, 17:00
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but socialism fails from the top and bottom because when you have not hope of having a life any better you have no incentive to try and in the end even those at the top end up worse off. Ask your self which situation would you rather be in?
It isnt the "system" that fails, its the people within.
So why do you bother to make the case for progressive taxes and the like? You have just admitted that the people in charge of redispersal are guaranteed to fail.
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| | | 164 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, May 07, 2012, 17:20
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It is a false argument to say that we are looking at a "progressive taxation" versus "socialism" argument. This kind of thinking arises from the far right trying to move the standards of what is "socialism."
Asking the wealthiest of us (who, among other things, utilize more government services) to pay slightly higher rates is what is being discussed now. The Far Right (who hold the GOP hostage) are both crazy about the deficit and crazy about ensuring that the easiest way to eat into it isn't on the table.
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| | | 165 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Mon, May 07, 2012, 17:30
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I have guaranteed boikin, that the people at the top, will be people, and will let the rest of the people down. That reality, is why we need laws that require those at the top, to pay into the pot from which various govt functions are paid. And yes, social services are a govt function, as it can not be viably argued that the continuation of the society is NOT in the govts best interest. Thus, they have a need for social services. And since those services also serve the people, they too have an interest in those same services.
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| | | 166 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, May 08, 2012, 20:37
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The GOP continues to purge moderates from their party, as Lugar loses primary to Tea Party candidate.
This puts Indiana into a possible pickup state for Dems in the fall. There's no way they would have won with Lugar as the GOP nominee, and now they have a chance at flipping a seat.
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| | | 167 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Tue, May 08, 2012, 22:52
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Well, Lugar is 80, and has been in the Senate almost 40 years. Too bad he didn't just retire gracefully. The real irony is that a Republican senator who has served honorably for nearly 40 years is branded as a RINO -Republican in name only. So, what the hell does a Republican have to do to be considered a Republican in actuality? Maybe when Richard Mourdoch suffers the same fate as Christine O'Donnell, Sharon Angle and Carly Fiorina, it will be those names that are associated with the RINO brand.
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| | | 168 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Wed, May 09, 2012, 04:56
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So, what the hell does a Republican have to do to be considered a Republican in actuality?
Stop voting against the core constituency he needs to get elected.
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| | | 169 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Wed, May 09, 2012, 09:14
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If you vote for the good of your constituents rather than party lines you are a RINO.
Luger was willing to cross the party line when the Republicans were being obstinate and I applaud him for that.
I agree with PD, Luger would have won this fall, his real race was the primary. I don't think Mourdoch wins this fall and Indiana goes back to having Senators from each party.
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| | | 170 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Wed, May 09, 2012, 10:21
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Stop voting against the core constituency he needs to get elected.
because, as PV pointed out, that worked so well for Christine O'Donnell, Sharon Angle and Carly Fiorina.
If you vote for the good of your constituents rather than party lines you are a RINO.
and this, is why the GOP is doomed to fail at the rate they're going, and no, the Tea Party won't be the one to pick up the pieces.
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| | | 171 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Wed, May 09, 2012, 11:00
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Stop voting against the core constituency he needs to get elected.
He was elected to the Senate, as a Republican, 6 times. That would indicate that the core constituency of Indiana Republicans have supported his voting record for decades. That would indicate that branding him a RINO is merely an attempt to insult and demean the career of a man who has successfully represented his state for decades.
A cursory look at Lugar's loss to Mourdoch reveals numerous elements beyond voting against his core constituency.
At 80, Lugar lacked the energy necessary to successfully mount a counter to the millions of out of state money poured into the campaign to oust him. Even more than his voting record, Lugar had to face the legitimate complaint that he had failed to retain his Indiana roots. He has no home in Indiana; no Indiana driver's license; rarely traveled there meet with constituents. Lugar's complacency made him vulnerable to a primary challenge, and, having never faced such a challenge before, he was unprepared to understand that the core constituents wanted more active representation, and were unwilling to rubber stamp another term. The far right, as witnessed by Baldwin's statement above, will use Lugar's defeat as a warning to Republicans that if they dare entertain any thoughts of bi-partisan cooperation in Washington to deal with the nation's problems, they will be branded as traitors to the party and ostracized into a political no man's land, leaving us with a Republican party of robotic politicians programmed to support polarization and impasse.
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| | | 172 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, May 09, 2012, 11:03
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Stop voting against the core constituency he needs to get elected.
The problem with the Tea Party is that even when you vote for their interests but against what the party wants, their non-negotiation policy calls this treasonous.
It is the Grover Nordquist approach to governing.
Frick is right--the vast majority of people aren't Tea Party members--what about their interests? A guy like Mourdoch, who has no interest (or intention) in representing constituents who don't already share all his views on every issue, isn't going to help Indiana.
I would have been happy with a Lugar win in the fall. Now I've got to hope for yet another Democratic slapdown of a Tea Party extremist.
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| | | 174 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Wed, May 09, 2012, 12:17
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from Fricks link above, we have yet another long-time Republican, lamenting what has happened to "Reagans Party":
Too often bipartisanship is equated with centrism or deal cutting. Bipartisanship is not the opposite of principle. One can be very conservative or very liberal and still have a bipartisan mindset. Such a mindset acknowledges that the other party is also patriotic and may have some good ideas. It acknowledges that national unity is important, and that aggressive partisanship deepens cynicism, sharpens political vendettas, and depletes the national reserve of good will that is critical to our survival in hard times. Certainly this was understood by President Reagan, who worked with Democrats frequently and showed flexibility that would be ridiculed today - from assenting to tax increases in the 1983 Social Security fix, to compromising on landmark tax reform legislation in 1986, to advancing arms control agreements in his second term.
As the GOP continues to marginalize itself, the real danger is that the extremists on the left gain power. The rights self-proclaimed war on "socialism", would in fact enable that same thing, via the diminishment of their ability to oppose. Like many on the left, I hold some views which are in fact socialist in nature, but I am not looking to dismantle the American way in order to replace our methods with something else. The GOP currently, is well on its way to enabling just that.
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| | | 175 | Tree
ID: 3436911 Wed, May 09, 2012, 12:39
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As the GOP continues to marginalize itself, the real danger is that the extremists on the left gain power.
there is something to this. on the flipside, however, is that the Dems have been fairly successful in marginalizing the extremists.
The Republicans, however, have catered to their every whim, and will pay dearly for it for years to come.
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| | | 176 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Wed, May 09, 2012, 13:19
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On yesterdays NC vote...
since the Amendment recognizes ONLY marriage between a man and a woman, what does this mean for the children of cohabitating but unwed hetero couples?
Wouldnt the Amendment then, violate the Equal Protection Clause, of the 14th Amendment?
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| | | 177 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Wed, May 09, 2012, 23:53
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Dems have been fairly successful in marginalizing the extremists
What edge of the spectrum where the blue dog democrats on again?
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| | | 178 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Thu, May 10, 2012, 00:08
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like the two from PA who voted against healthcare reform and then lost their seats? Those are right leaning (fiscally) Democrats B. That they too are falling, goes to my point. Moderates are going away, in favor of extremists. That is not a good thing.
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| | | 179 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Thu, May 10, 2012, 03:49
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Sarge
Some mistaken individual recently tried to claim that wasn't happening on the democrat side.
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| | | 180 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Thu, May 10, 2012, 10:39
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What edge of the spectrum where the blue dog democrats on again?
blue dogs aren't extremists. they're conservative-leaning Democrats. No issues with that.
extremists are the ones who take their party all the way to the right, or all the way to the left, depending on party affiliation - and for the most part, Dems have successfully kept the far left nut jobs from screaming and shouting and lying and throwing temper tantrums until they get their way, unlike what the Republicans have done, which is to embrace the radicals.
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| | | 181 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Thu, May 10, 2012, 10:52
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That's crap. The alliance of marxist moonbats is firmly in the driver's seat in the dem party.
The Tea Party is still getting little more than lip service from the republican hierarchy.
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| | | 182 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Thu, May 10, 2012, 11:07
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That's crap. The alliance of marxist moonbats is firmly in the driver's seat in the dem party.
no, that's fact. ask any Marxist if there are Marxists controlling the dem party, and they sadly lament that there isn't a one.
The Tea Party is still getting little more than lip service from the republican hierarchy.
the tea party had its chance. it is proving to be irrelevant over the long haul. while still in the short haul. that's what happens when you're all sizzle, and no steak.
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| | | 183 | Razor
ID: 404281012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 13:33
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Tree, do us all a favor and don't take the bait. We're all worse for it, yourself included.
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| | | 184 | Tree
ID: 444571012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 13:58
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fair enough.
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| | | 185 | Boldwin
ID: 474451012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 14:12
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To be fair the far left wishes they could get their 100% wish list filled.
The difference is that the Dem party is pushing for 100% of that wish list that is conceivably doable.
The dominant side of Rep hierarchy is fighting tooth and nail against the Tea Party. When Cantor has a Tea Party equivalent senate majority leader on the same page with him, we'll finally be getting somewhere.
Had conservatives had a true chance, Newt would have had the finances to stick it out till the convention and then trade conservative support for Romney in exchange for control of the party machinery.
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| | | 186 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Fri, May 11, 2012, 12:09
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You are Boldwin, to put it in a single word....delusional.
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| | | 190 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, May 29, 2012, 19:30
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In the wake of Romney palling with The Donald (fundraising makes pals of everyone, it seems), it might be useful to get Donald's take on a very important issue:
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| | | 192 | Tree
ID: 415121110 Mon, Jun 11, 2012, 11:20
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what many of us have been saying all along...
"Ronald Reagan would have, based on his record of finding accommodation, finding some degree of common ground, as would my dad they would have a hard time if you define the Republican party and I don't as having an orthodoxy that doesn't allow for disagreement, doesn't allow for finding some common ground," (Former Florida Gov. Jeb) Bush said, according to the website Buzzfeed.
the bolded part is mine, since many of today's more radical conservatives - present company included - are ignorant of history or being intentionally obtuse - when it comes to Reagan's record of, and understanding of, compromise.
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| | | 197 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sat, Jun 16, 2012, 02:55
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Lawmaker barred from speaking after 'v@gina' comment
House Republicans prohibited state Rep. Lisa Brown from speaking on the floor Thursday after she ended a speech Wednesday against a bill restricting abortions by referencing her female anatomy.
Brown, a West Bloomfield Democrat and mother of three, said a package of abortion regulation bills would violate her Jewish religious beliefs and that abortions be be allowed in cases where it is required to save the life of the mother.
"Finally, Mr. Speaker, I'm flattered that you're all so interested in my v@gina, but 'no' means 'no,'" Brown said Wednesday.
as the GOP inches closer and closer to insanity...not to mention sounding like radical religious zealots that we hear about in other countries.
(i find it ironic. and shocking, that the word v@gina is banned on these boards. wow. can i say twat?)
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| | | 198 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sat, Jun 16, 2012, 02:56
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apparently so.
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| | | 200 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sat, Jun 16, 2012, 16:20
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I actually agree with that one.
If someone is illegally breaking into your home (as distinct from legally breaking into your home), what difference should it make to your ability to defend yourself if they are a police officer?
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| | | 201 | Tree
ID: 565292016 Wed, Jun 20, 2012, 17:35
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the difference between us and them...
On Sunday, Obama adviser David Axelrod took to Twitter to condemn heckling by Obama supporters during Romney's bus tour.
"Shouting folks down is their tactic, not ours," Axelrod wrote. "Let voters hear BOTH candidates & decide."
..."We have sent a strong message to our supporters that this campaign should be an open exchange of ideas, not one where we drown out the other side by heckling and crashing events," Obama press secretary Ben LaBolt said.
...
Romney, however, said he was less sure both sides could actually come to that agreement.
"I know America has a long history of heckling and free speech," Romney said jokingly in Tuesday's interview. "It would be very nice if we could reach that kind of conclusion. I'm not sure it's possible for us."
the leaders on one side condemn, the leaders on the other side not only invite, but take credit for hecklers interupting speeches and such.
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| | | 202 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Jun 20, 2012, 17:43
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I'm not sure it's possible for us.
Translation: We in the GOP, are incapable of civil behavior.
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| | | 203 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Wed, Jun 20, 2012, 21:42
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I applaud Obama and his team for trying to put a stop to the practice.
I think Romney is being more pragmatic in what is going to happen despite what he says.
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| | | 205 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 08:19
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I think that Obama has already come off looking better. If Republican's show up at Democratic rallys, act poorly and Romney doesn't condone them, he looks even worse IMO.
I've said this a number of times, but I didn't vote for Obama in 2008 and I disagree with him on plenty of issues, but I think he has done plenty of good things. I love his position of trying to foster real debate, see his speech at Notre Dame's graduation. This statement is along the same lines and it is actions like that have me leaning towards voting for him in 2012.
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| | | 206 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:18
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. If Republican's show up at Democratic rallys, act poorly and Romney doesn't condone them, he looks even worse IMO.
presumably, you meant condemn?
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| | | 207 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 11:00
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Umm, yes. Condemn is what I meant. Although condone is more apt to apply to most Republicans sadly.
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| | | 208 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 12:30
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both sides will have their jerks, little room for denial there. I think what is central here, is how the candidates will respond to that truth, If one publicly admonishes them, while the other says 'gee, thats too bad", *shrug*,... which one do you think is showing leadership?
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| | | 211 | Boldwin
ID: 40502313 Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 21:25
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They had components. Get over it.
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| | | 212 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 22:14
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Still getting your panties in a twist over the tubes? Or the areas that had been destroyed for 15 years previously?
I'll get over the truth when it ceases to be so. Spin all you want--you can't make real food out of your cotton candy political spin machine.
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| | | 213 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sun, Jun 24, 2012, 00:25
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That belief led to the second longest war in American history, and in all likelihood extended what would become the longest war in American history.
But who doesn't love a couple of good, long, simultaneous wars? Get over it!
Of course I know a good number of Iraq War vets who wouldn't hesitate to make Boldy eat his own teeth if he said that in their presence, but they're obviously just the wrong kind of American war vets. WTF do they know about it anyway.
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| | | 215 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 01:34
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i actually have no issues with the corporal punishment thing. the rest of it is nut bags.
then again, we have two Republicans running against each other, one of whom's platform consists entirely of "hey! my opponent once defended a Chinese company," or at least that's the best i can tell.
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| | | 217 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 01:32
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bordering on treason.
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| | | 219 | Boldwin
ID: 21628112 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 13:37
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Glenn Reynolds, TheInstapundit via Washington Examiner [America's most influential blogger]:Democrat Xavier Becerra claimed that striking down Obamacare would mean that the Supreme Court was "a partisan body no different from Congress."... --- Becerra added, "We should all take some time tonight to pray a little to make sure the Supreme Court doesn't come out with another 5-4 decision which, once again, unmasks its political tendencies."
Given that the Democrats won by 5-4 instead of losing by 5-4, we can expect all these complaints about activist judging to be shelved until the next big case. But while talk of the Supreme Court's legitimacy may fade, I'd like to talk about something related: The damage that Obamacare did to the legitimacy of the other two branches of government. --- STEPHANOPOULOS: But you reject that it's a tax increase?
OBAMA: I absolutely reject that notion.
Obama had to reject that notion, since otherwise Obamacare's tax increase would have represented a massive middle-class tax increase indeed, and one that violated his promise that families earning less than $250,000 a year would see no tax increases of any kind under his plan. Now the Supreme Court has basically said he lied.
Of course, that's not the only broken promise from Obamacare's passage. Obama also promised that if you liked your existing health insurance policy, you'd get to keep it -- something that quickly turned out to be false, as the changes mandated under the health care law led to severe cuts in coverage, or even cancellation of coverage, by insurers.
And if the executive branch's treatment of Obamacare was characterized by lies, the legislative branch didn't look any better. Obamacare, remember, was rammed through in the teeth of popular opposition; when the special election victory of Scott Brown meant that Democrats no longer had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, the bill was squeezed through via a "reconciliation" procedure under the fiction that it was a budget bill, not substantive legislation.
Add to that the intense role of lobbyists and special interests in drafting the law, Nancy Pelosi's famous remark that we'd have to pass the bill to find out what was in it and the rampant vote-buying (remember the "Cornhusker Kickback"?), and we have a process that was dishonest, corrupt and far less legitimate than any conceivable Supreme Court ruling on Obamacare.
So, at the end of the day, the legitimacy question rests not with the Supreme Court, but with Congress and the president.
So far, the returns are not good. A Rasmussen poll last week showed only 22 percent of Americans think our present government enjoys the "consent of the governed" -- the Framers' standard for legitimacy. Given what's happened with Obamacare, the surprising thing is that the number is so high.
Now consider: If a Supreme Court that many Americans regard as illegitimate constitutes a danger to the Republic, what kind of danger is posed when the government as a whole is regarded as illegitimate?
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| | | 220 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 13:56
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"If a Supreme Court that many Americans regard as illegitimate constitutes a danger to the Republic, what kind of danger is posed when the government as a whole is regarded as illegitimate?"
You mean, what kind of danger is posed when people get butthurt about losing a Supreme Court decision?
I don't know, how much danger to the Republic are you planning to cause?
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| | | 221 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 17:04
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You right wingers, may want to reread, very carefully, the majority opinion. In it, Justice Roberts SPECIFICALLY states that the penalty is NOT a tax, when he strikes down the Anti0Injunction Act suit, since that applies ONLY to taxes. He then goes on to say the authority to tax is a legitimate power of Congress, and thus they can levy the penalty to enforce the mandate.
He neither declared it a tax, nor rewrote the bill. He exercised a conservative principle, "judicial restraint", and let stand, duly executed legislation.
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| | | 222 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 18:45
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If a Supreme Court that many Americans regard as illegitimate constitutes a danger to the Republic, what kind of danger is posed when the government as a whole is regarded as illegitimate?
You mean the wingnuts who hoped the politicians-in-robes on SCOTUS, who now realize that they have no Plan B, is now questioning the legitimacy of the government itself?
Welcome to your Bush v Gore.
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| | | 223 | Boldwin
ID: 21628112 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 19:58
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If you think the anti-socialists don't have a plan-B you had better think again. What did you think taking back the House was all about? The senate has twice as many vulnerable Dems and Reps this cycle. The RINO's are nearly extinct except on SCOTUS apparently.
The anti-marxists are working from a plan that includes a whole lot more than hoping and wishing that SCOTUS would solve it for them.
Granted we are very close to a point of no return where we can never go back to America. The public will be tempted to drop the issue [due to SCOTUS] now even tho a majority have always been against Obamacare. It's an uphill fight but it's important enuff to run uphill for.
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| | | 224 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 20:00
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YOUR version B, of the GOP, is THE single most severe threat, this nation has faced in the past 200 years.
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| | | 225 | Boldwin
ID: 21628112 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 20:05
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My version of the GOP is the most severe threat the marxists who took over the media and the educational system in the 1960's have faced since Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingerich were in power.
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| | | 226 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 20:08
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R Reagan, would have nothing to do, with todays GOP.
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| | | 227 | Boldwin
ID: 21628112 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 20:30
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No one buys that except people who hated Reagan at the time and still do.
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| | | 228 | Boldwin
ID: 21628112 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 20:37
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Put your words to the test Sarge. Does anyone actually believe Reagan would be on the socialist medicine side of today's politcal battlelines?
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| | | 229 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 20:54
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Multiple links B, of statements from those who served in his administration have said as much. But as usual, you chose to ignore reality.
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| | | 230 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 21:03
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quite certain B:
link
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| | | 231 | Boldwin
ID: 21628112 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 21:05
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Nothing has changed about the nature of socialized medicine or Reagan's principles that would lead him to fall for that.
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| | | 232 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 21:17
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what possible legitimate reason, could the GOP have for letting this bill die in House committee?
Bill would make it a crime to DELIBERATELY mislead voters about elections; such as when/where to vote.
Instances of deliberate voter intimidation and deception crop up in nearly every federal election. During the 2010 elections, Kansas voters received automated calls telling them they could not vote without their voter registration card and proof of home-ownership which was false. In Maryland the same year, voters received automated calls that claimed the Democratic candidate Martin OMalley won the gubernatorial election hours before the polls had closed and advised them to relax.
Voter fraud? There is your voter fraud GOP. Done by you.
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| | | 233 | Boldwin
ID: 21628112 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 21:20
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Reagan's political mission was to push the GOP to the right. Not a mere politician, Reagan was the leader of a movement -- smaller government, lower taxes, stronger defense. He was the conservative alternative to Gerald Ford in 1976 and George H.W. Bush in 1980, both of whom came from the party's establishment.
If Reagan were running today instead of 1980, it's a safe bet he'd occupy the same slot -- the conservative alternative to Mitt Romney. - LA TIMES, so liberal I virtually never agree with them.
Jeb Bush will tell you otherwise because he doesn't like that his sense of entitlement to the office of Bush dynasty president is imperiled by the Tea Party.
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| | | 234 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 21:25
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We all know you B. You'll scour the net for ONE something that endorses your narrow minded view and hold that up as though it were the Holy Grail. All the while, ignoring the plethora of disputing statements put before you in that very same search.
What's that old saying...ah yes...Ignorance, is bliss.
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| | | 235 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 22:00
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Practically anyone in the GOP except Mitt Romney would occupy that slot. Doesn't make Jeb Bush wrong.
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| | | 236 | Boldwin
ID: 21628112 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 22:44
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BTW how idiotic is it to say Reagan couldn't win the republican nomination when Massachusetts quasi-liberal Mitt Romney just did?
[look-at-me-while-I-and-Ted-Kennedy-pat-each-other-on-the-back-over-our-new-Massachusetts-socialized-medicine-bill]
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| | | 237 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 22:52
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Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingerich were in power.
Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama are so similar, your narrow mind couldn't even process it, much less comprehend it.
and Reagan, who was the master of compromise, would want nothing of today's yellow-spined chicken $hit GOP.
countless people who knew him will acknowledge that - and i have more faith in them than some moron living in the midwest.
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| | | 238 | Boldwin
ID: 21628112 Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 03:05
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People much more clever than you, have tried and failed to make a silk purse out of that sow's ear.
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| | | 239 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 09:42
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People much more clever than you, have tried and failed to make a silk purse out of that sow's ear.
the only failure here is your failure to accept anyone belief or fact that disagrees with your own.
Reagan's art of compromise has been well documented. his disdain for the more radical right elements of the GOP has also been documented.
"When I began entering into the give and take of legislative bargaining in Sacramento, a lot of the most radical conservatives who had supported me during the election didn't like it.
"Compromise" was a dirty word to them and they wouldn't face the fact that we couldn't get all of what we wanted today. They wanted all or nothing and they wanted it all at once. If you don't get it all, some said, don't take anything.
"I'd learned while negotiating union contracts that you seldom got everything you asked for. And I agreed with FDR, who said in 1933: 'I have no expectations of making a hit every time I come to bat. What I seek is the highest possible batting average.'
"If you got seventy-five or eighty percent of what you were asking for, I say, you take it and fight for the rest later, and that's what I told these radical conservatives who never got used to it. - from "An American Life" (his autobiography)
just because you prefer ignorance and fiction over reality doesn't mean that reality doesn't exist.
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| | | 240 | Boldwin
ID: 21628112 Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 10:26
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Anyone who says Ronald Reagan and Barrack Obama are two peas in a pod, has no business lecturing anyone about reality.
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| | | 241 | Tree
ID: 562213 Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 14:03
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Anyone who says Ronald Reagan and Barrack Obama are two peas in a pod, has no business lecturing anyone about reality.
no one said they're two peas in a pod. but they are similar in a lot of ways.
your blind ignorance doesn't change that. you won't even acknowledge Reagan's own words on compromise, nor will you acknowledge the words of those who knew him best.
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| | | 244 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 08:51
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Ass, consider yourself bitten.
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| | | 246 | Tree
ID: 21658916 Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 18:00
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On drug reform, Chris Christie shows his gentler side
while i do not like Chris Christie much, at least he is consistent. unfortunately, that will likely put him in the RINO camp soon enough, and earn vilification from other Conservatives.
while discussing a new progam that offers treatment instead of jail time for non-violent drug offenders, Christie said "If you're pro-life, as I am, you can't be pro-life just in the womb. Every life is precious and every one of God's creatures can be redeemed.
But they won't be if we ignore them. ... I believe that the results will show, after this is fully implemented, will be startling because people can be treated and miracles happen every day at these facilities. Lives are restored."
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| | | 247 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 18:07
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Christie is all right. I don't like many of his stances on issues, but he's a throwback GOP politico.
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| | | 248 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 18:16
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The so called "war on drugs", is and has been a dismal failure, costing vast sums of money and resulting in the classifying as criminals, those who who with rehab, would not otherwise BE criminals.
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| | | 249 | Boldwin
ID: 2664163 Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 21:27
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that will likely put him in the RINO camp soon enough, and earn vilification from other Conservatives.
A ten on AC's scale and an eight at least on mine.
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| | | 250 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 21:34
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who cares
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| | | 251 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 21:39
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In February 2011, at CPA, AC wanted Christie as the Republican nominee, and predicted that "if we don't run Chris Christie, Mitt Romney will be the nominee and we'll lose."
Still a "ten on AC's scale" per her would-be mouthpiece on these boards....
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| | | 252 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 20:23
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McCarthyism, 2012 style
On June 13, five members of Congress including Michele Bachmann (MN-06), Trent Franks (AZ-02), Louie Gohmert (TX-01), Tom Rooney (FL-16) and Lynn Westmoreland (GA-03) sent distinct letters to the Inspectors General of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, the Department of Defense, the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Justice and the Department of State with the intention of finding out.
Each letter roughly began:
As you may know, information has recently come to light that raises serious questions about the involvement of organizations and individuals associated with the Muslim Brotherhood in [insert department] activities and policies. Given that the U.S. government has established in federal court that the Muslim Brotherhoods mission in the United States is destroying Western civilization from within a practice the Brothers call civilization jihad we believe that the apparent involvement of those with such ties raises serious security concerns that warrant your urgent attention.
Michele Bachmann is one of them. Is there more proof needed, of the idiocy here?
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| | | 253 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 20:38
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The idiocy is in not taking the jihadis at their word.
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| | | 254 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 20:41
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heh, same exact thing your narrowminded self would have said in the 50s too B.
(In the 40s, Japanese-Americans were the target of the rabid right. In the 50s? Commies. In the 60s? Blacks. Now? Muslim. Haters, gotta hate.)
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| | | 255 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 20:56
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The idiocy is in not taking the jihadis at their word.
More like taking them at your word.
The "Muslim Brotherhood" is an umbrella group with a number of very different aims and goals. Are some war-like? You bet--just like some Christian organizations.
Here's a quote particularly troubling quote for the Right: "The Brotherhood uses the slogan, Islam is the answer, and generally advocates for government in accordance with Islamic principles. The movement has as a broad goal unifying what it perceives as Muslim lands, from Spain to Indonesia, as a caliphate.
Let's change that to:
The [GOP] uses the slogan, [Jesus] is the answer, and generally advocates for government in accordance with [Christian] principles. The movement has as a broad goal unifying what it perceives as [Christian] lands, from Spain to Indonesia, as a caliphate.
For the Far Right, Muslims are a problem for religious reasons.
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| | | 256 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 21:02
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If there was a hell, you and Sarge would end up comparing notes with Neville Chamberlain.
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| | | 257 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 21:06
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Not to worry B, there is one, and I'll be sure to save you a seat.
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| | | 258 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 21:09
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Given the people that you believe to be our enemies, Boldwin, I'll take my chances.
Surprised it took you this long to get in your first Hitler reference.
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| | | 261 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 16:57
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Gohmert is an idiot from TX. On FB, I am engaged in a long running argument today, about how ineffective armed citizenry would have been here. I liken it to the AZ situation, made worse by a confined area and low light.
71 shot, 12 dead atm according to TV reports. Were there say 250 people in the theater, and all 250 were armed, I'd wager had they all responded, we'd have 200+ shot and 150+ dead.
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| | | 262 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 29542105 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 16:58
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260-the thing i dont understand is why he is in custody. why didnt the police kill him and be done with it.
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| | | 263 | Mith
ID: 186412015 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 17:03
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Gohmert is a blowhard who chose to seize on a political opportunity rather than exercise patience and caution in commenting on a fresh and highly sensitive tragedy.
I assume 262 is attempted humor?
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| | | 264 | Mith
ID: 186412015 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 17:08
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FTR Gohmert doesn't deserve any more criticism than ABC News.
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| | | 265 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 17:08
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Gohmert vs Napolitano
youtube link
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| | | 266 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 17:11
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#264: Seems like Ross qualified his remarks enough--he was upfront the whole time that they weren't certain it was the same guy.
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| | | 267 | Mith
ID: 186412015 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 17:14
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It's unprofessional to go to air with unvarified info like that, even if you explain that it's unvarified. He gets a few points back for the quick correction but he knows better.
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| | | 268 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 17:14
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I dunno MITH. Ross says "We dont know if its the same Jim Holmes..."
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| | | 269 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 17:22
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I do know. Unprofessional.
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| | | 270 | slug
ID: 265522515 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 17:30
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I'm with Mith on this one. IMO, even if it was the same guy, it's not even relevant information.
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| | | 271 | Mith
ID: 186412015 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 17:42
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If it's confirmed, personal info about the shoter is relevent enough to take to air. That includes his affiliations.
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| | | 272 | Tree
ID: 45632017 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 18:07
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On FB, I am engaged in a long running argument today, about how ineffective armed citizenry would have been here.
i wish more people would understand this.
a dark theater, smoke bombs and other incindeary devices being thrown, bullets flying every which way from a drum magazine, and people running and ducking and scattering all over the place.
and some guy with a conceal and carry is going to be able to ignore all that distraction and take down the shooter.
not very likely. much more likely that there would have been more innocents killed.
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| | | 273 | Razor
ID: 476122017 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 18:12
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That is a ridiculous allegation to make on-air without any confirmation whatsoever. Couching it with "we're not exactly sure at this time" does not condone it. He should be reprimanded or fired for such an obvious breach in journalistic integrity.
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| | | 274 | Mith
ID: 186412015 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 18:25
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I should add that it would certainly be that much worse if he reported the tea party thing as fact, but that doesn't excuse what he did do.
Re 261 and 272 - Holmes was obviously prepared to fight through a shootout. He was heavily armed, heavily armored, introduced a chemical distraction into an environment that was already disorienting with darkness and loud noise.
Introducing more bullets into that situation would much more likely have resulted in more injuries than fewer.
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| | | 275 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 18:31
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It could be that Ross was pushed into revealing the information too early from the question by Stephanopoulos.
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| | | 276 | Mith
ID: 186412015 Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 18:34
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Yes, or by a high-level producer.
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| | | 277 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 29542105 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 05:52
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263-no i'm pretty serious. this is no time for humor
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| | | 278 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 07:27
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Necessary to interview him to see if he's done more damage elsewhere, committed other crimes, had accomplices, etc. In this case he told police that his apartment was trapped. If they hadn't gotten that info, there would probably be dead cops and/or neighbors of the suspect to add to the toll.
Then there's a thing called proper police conduct, part of which says they arent supposed to shoot at suspects who give themselves up. That stems from the US Constitution which guarantees the right to a fair trial.
There's also the strong probability that the cops who arrested him didn't want to be brought up on charges, since that's exactly what happens when police use unnecessary force on a suspect who cooperates with them.
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| | | 279 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 07:28
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Brian Ross is the ABC reporter who had sources that told him that the anthrax contained bentonite and could be traced back to Saddam. Shortly later, it was determined that the anthrax came from a U.S. facility and did not contain bentonite. Brian Ross will not reveal his misleading sources. The sources could be the ones behind the deadly anthrax attacks. Don't ever listen to Brian Ross.
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| | | 280 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 29542105 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 08:43
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The movie should not be shown for at least a week in respect for the dead.
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| | | 281 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 20:00
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I know I sure want someone else with a gun around if some psycho goes off his rocker.
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| | | 282 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 20:02
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I guess liberals love the idea of facing the psycho down unarmed. Try a few 'give peace a chance' slogans and see if he comes to his senses.
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| | | 283 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 20:38
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Yeah, that's what it is about. You nailed it!
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| | | 284 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 20:39
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Its more likely that most people here, including the only one with real combat experience, knows better than think it would have been a good idea to introduce more gunfire into that closed, capacity-packed and chaotic environment. People couldn't see or breathe or discern the sound of real gunfire from the action movie noises blaring from every direction and everyone who wasn't incapacitated or paralyzed with fear was running in every direction. The shooter was heavily armed and heavily armored enough that he was clearly prepared last long enough to do as much damage as he wanted.
Further, had someone stopped him in time to prevent some of the casualties the result would most likely have been some number of dead cops instead, since he wouldn't have been alive to tell police that his apartment was booby trapped with explosives and still unknown chemicals.
And for all you know the place was full of armed civilians who knew better take a shot in that environment.
But then I'm trying to reason with someone who just can't pass up the opportunity to exploit the latest natural tragedy as a good excuse to mock people.
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| | | 285 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 21:35
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He didn't warn police about the booby-traps. Police discovered them on their own thru cautious entry.
You are the ones trying to exploit a tragedy to strip us of our constitutional rights.
Stopping a shooter without weapons of your own is the most costly way possible. Worrying about friendly fire is worrying about by far the lesser risk.
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| | | 286 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 21:52
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Never mind that Colorado is a gun fanatic's wet dream and the reason guns aren't allowed on the property is because the private property owners don't want them there.
The refrain of the kook: "If only those liberals would stop picking on us and politicizing things, these terrible things that happen exactly where things are as I want them wouldn't happen."
Or are you now in favor of private property owners being compelled to let you bring guns onto their property?
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| | | 287 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 22:02
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You are the ones trying to exploit a tragedy to strip us of our constitutional rights.
In what way, specifically? Such a charge requires some pretty good specificity without the rebuttal that you are blowing smoke as a result of being overly sensitive.
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| | | 288 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 22:12
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You are the ones...
Don't include me in your fantasies.
And for the record: Holmes warned police his apartment was "booby trapped", after being arrested for killing at least 12 people and injuring 50 others at the Century 16 Movie theater.
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| | | 289 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 22:39
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re 285: He didn't warn police about the booby-traps. Police discovered them on their own thru cautious entry.
incorrect. Holmes told police of the booby traps.
And anyone who for one second thinks that more weaponry in that environment would have been a good thing, is an absolute, unmitigated ignorant SOB, incapable of deductive reasoning. The ONLY thing an armed civilian responding to that scenario with gunfire would have accomplished, would have been to increase the body count. (and NOT, by one)
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| | | 290 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 03:03
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BS. I suppose if you had been there and armed, you would have thrown down your weapon to save lives then. BS.
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| | | 291 | Tree
ID: 53555306 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 06:26
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other military and law enforcement veterans have said they would have gotten their family out of their first, so yes.
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| | | 292 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 07:54
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Why would he boobytrap it and then tell the police?
I always wondered why someone does not do a kamikaze rush towards the shooter. He may turn and shoot you, but your running momentum would get you to him , so you could grab the gun or tackle him or something. And if two or more do this at the same time, it could be over. But, you're probably not thinking too clearly.
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| | | 293 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 08:45
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People couldn't breathe or see through the gas. Bullets were flying. And Rambo is fiction.
A dark night club with blaring music, strobe lights and fog machines can incredibly disorienting - without the fear that you are about to die. And while we still don't know what was in the cannister, it probably wasn't dance floor smoke.
I've been exposed to a small amount of tear gas when an overcrowded bar I was in erupted in a brawl and the place was raided. You can't see, you choke uncontrollably.
People were there with their friends and family. You would have left your girlfriend or wife while you slowly fought your way through the gas and flying bullets (just dodge them, duh!) and people climbing over seats, the injured and each other to get to take out the only guy in the place in control of the situation?
Sure you would have. As I've already asked, how do you know there weren't several armed people there who either tried and were shot or who knew better?
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| | | 294 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 09:34
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Why would he boobytrap it and then tell the police?
A lot of it doesn't make sense. He was so heavily armed and literally covered head to toe in body armor, complete with a Kevlar crotch piece, that he clearly intended to last a good while through a shootout
I've been asking why he would so equip himself and then simply walk out the door and wait calmly by his car for police and then not resist when they did?
One witness account which I did not see first hand claimed that his gun jammed and that was when he walked out through the emergency exit door and that someone in the room found the wherewithall to close the door behind him. But a lot of the witness accounts have been contradictory so you can't fully accept that just yet. And even if so, why would he have brought only one of his four weapons into the theater?
But, you're probably not thinking too clearly.
No. These gun rights advocates who have no combat training and are so quick to exploit on this tragedy as the latest proof of their "guns make us safer" politics are always the least realistic and seem to get their idea of the experience from action movies.
I've been threatened with a gun once, in my early 20s. I was trying to work my way through a large tight crowd at a doorway inside a rave and some guy felt that I caused a big part of the crowd to cut in front of him. As I passed through the door I realized he was angry and shouting at me, stuff like, 'you gotta watch who you mess with in a place like this.'
A few minutes later on the other side of the door I saw him off in a corner and went over to tell him that if I caused that to happen I didn't mean it. He coolly said some more stuff about what happens to people who aren't careful about who they mess and pulled his sport jacket aside to show me his gun. He kept talking with a cool but increasingly intimidating tone and I think after a couple of seconds I was too scared to hear what he was saying. I do know that I was literally paralyzed with fear and he never even took the thing out, much less point it at me.
As terrifying as that experience was for me I'm sure it was nothing compared to what those people in that theater dealt with.
It's so easy to say, "why didn't someone just do this, sure you might get sure but..."
Except probably for Sarge, no one here has any idea how he'd react such a situation, even without all the chaos that Holmes had clearly set up to use to his advantage.
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| | | 295 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 11:11
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"Why would he boobytrap it and then tell the police? "
I think that applying normal standards of logical behavior to someone who just shot up a movie theater is probably a bad idea.
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| | | 296 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 11:28
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I think that applying normal standards of logical behavior to someone who just shot up a movie theater is probably a bad idea.
One of your most insightful posts ever. Applying normal LOGIC, to the criminal mind, is an exercise in futility. Why do people rob banks, when they have less than a 3% historic probability of getting away with it? Why do people commit murder, when the penalty in many cases, is death? LOGIC/presupposes the perpetrator sat and contemplated the ramifications of their thoughts. In most cases, this never happens. They dont contemplate what will happen to them if they get caught BECAUSE...they believe they are smarter than the cops and they WONT get caught. Thus, the punishment wont apply to them/
In Holmes case, it appears that he had never failed academically at ANYTHING. Yet here in pursuit of his PhD, he was doing exactly that. One on air consultant, suggested that MAYBE, that has something to do with the whole thing. We dont know yet. It is further theorized, that he told the cops of the booby traps, believing himself so clever, that they would be unable to disarm them.From all appearances, he had little if any thought that he was going to "get away" with his actions or even from the scene.
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| | | 297 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 21:22
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The mass murder in Aurora that didn't make the news.
Because it didn't fit Sarge's narrative. Armed victims in a crowded setting don't get victimized nearly as much.
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| | | 298 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 21:32
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an off duty police officer. Not exactly B, the same as Joe civilian now is it?
Is no amount of deception beneath you? Are there ANY limits, to your willingness to stretch the truth in order to justify your own claims?
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| | | 300 | Mith
ID: 186412015 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 22:24
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It wasn't a crowded setting. It was in the parking lot while church was still in service.
Pack 400 people into a dark and blaringlyloud room just big enough for everyone to have a seat and add a gas cannister, an AR-15 and a load of body armor to the mix and you're talking about a much different thing.
I'm sure B has never been in a dance club before so he might not understand that even harmless smoke from a dance floor fog machine in the flashing lights make you mostly unable to see anything more than a few feet away.
Tho even if he did understand that, I'm sure this national tragedy would still be way too juicy for him to pass on exploiting for political points.
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| | | 317 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 16:45
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My question is what happens the first time some commits mass murder and does not use a gun? What will we find to blame. Guns are in fact ineffective weapon if your goal is to commit mass murder.
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| | | 326 | Seattle Zen
ID: 47630913 Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 18:12
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If you want to get serious about the federal budget deficit, you have to close tax loopholes. Not too many Senators are interested
As a member of the Gang of Six, Senator Mike Crapo of Idaho has emerged as something of a hero among advocates of bipartisanship, one of three conservative Republicans working with three Democrats to cut the deficit by closing loopholes that allow businesses and households to avoid paying taxes. Yet earlier this year, the senator made sure that a $3 billion loophole protecting black liquor, an alcoholic sludge used as fuel in timber mills and factories remained open in the negotiations over the highway bill that President Obama signed this month. Many budget experts criticize the loophole as a tax dodge because it allows the sludge to qualify for an energy subsidy created to wean the country off imported oil for vehicles, which black liquor does not do.
On Capitol Hill, lawmakers casually point to closing loopholes as the answer to much that ails the country. Negotiations to avoid automatic military spending cuts in January, to enact sweeping deficit reduction and to lower corporate and personal income tax rates all hinge on closing unidentified loopholes.
But the back-room actions on black liquor point to just how difficult it will be to lower the budget deficit through painless changes in the tax code. Even for a self-proclaimed deficit hawk like Mr. Crapo, one mans loophole can be anothers vital constituent interest. It's not enough that we let these timbermills cut trees off federal land for next to nothing, now they get another $3billion in tax relief?
Federal tax receipts are reduced by more than $1 trillion a year by various tax deductions and credits, known as tax expenditures, often tied to a policy aim. Ending them would nearly eliminate the federal deficit, which is projected to be $1.2 trillion in the current fiscal year.
But the three largest are as popular as they are expensive: the mortgage interest deduction has cost about $75 billion a year recently, the employer deduction for health care has cost $120 billion a year, and the charitable-giving deduction has cost $38 billion a year, according to the bipartisan Joint Committee on Taxation.
Others are more hotly debated, like the exclusion or deferral of taxes on overseas corporate earnings. Legislation by Senator Debbie Stabenow, Democrat of Michigan, to end a tax deduction for the expense of moving business overseas fell to a Republican filibuster in the Senate this week.
Still other tax breaks verge on the unpopular, criticized by aides of both parties. Offshore tax havens and other tax shelters cost the government about $150 billion a year, said Senator Kent Conrad of North Dakota, chairman of the Senate Budget Committee.
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| | | 327 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 18:27
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#317 Unabomber, underwear bomber, shoe bomber, 911, Panam bombing, etc.
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| | | 328 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Mon, Jul 23, 2012, 18:30
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Okc
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| | | 331 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 16:35
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wouldn't the correct statement be: here is what the GOP house and Dem. Senate has passed this year 54 laws...I guess that was just typo on your part, PD?
I think everyone knows #329 to be the truth or at least to some degree can agree with it, but it is so much more convenient for politicians to play magician and have everyone misdirected.
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| | | 332 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 17:01
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no boikin. he said what he meant. You seem to be overlooking the 33 times the House has voted to repeal PPACA. The obstructionist House GOP, has only allowed for 54 total laws to hit Obama's desk. Many of which, were pretty much pointless.
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| | | 333 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 17:10
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Put another way: This is the sum of all the GOP House could agree with.
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| | | 334 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 16:44
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well that maybe that is your opinion but that is not what the article says, if you want to post an opinion piece about why only 54 bills have been passed I am sure that would be interesting read.
Why not just admit you left a purposely misleading caption on link or stop calling out others when they do it.
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| | | 335 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 17:01
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???
"Here's the sum of what the GOP Congress has passed this year. 54 laws."
Maybe "The GOP Congress has only passed 54 bills that became law."
Or "54 laws. That's the sum of what the GOP Congress was able to agree with the Democratic President and Senate."
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| | | 336 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 17:08
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Lawmakers have sent only 54 bills to President Obama so far this year, making it one of the least productive sessions on record. Most of the new laws are trivial.
That is the first sentence of the article. Didn't the house pass any bills that died in the senate?
The obstructionist House GOP, has only allowed for 54 total laws to hit Obama's desk
No comment necessary.
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| | | 337 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 17:09
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no need to comment, on the painfully obvious truth. That too, is true.
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| | | 338 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 17:17
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If you were aware that the democrat-controlled Senate also has to pass the law, you would not make such a comment.
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| | | 339 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 17:45
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The blockage is in the House. Not only do we know this from the numbers, but we know this because the GOP uses it as a talking/chest thumping point.
Their inability to work with Democrats results in few real bills being passed.
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| | | 340 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 19:19
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I am aware of the Dem controlled Senate. I am also aware of the Senate GOPs taste for a filibuster requiring a super-majority to break. I am aware of the House GOP, holding the nation hostage and acting like a petulant 5 yr old, over the debt ceiling. I am aware, of the House GOP, using how many days to pass how many times, an appeal of PPACA, which we all KNOW, will die in the Senate. I am also aware, of your propensity to like Boldwin, serve as little more than a Republican apologist.
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| | | 341 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 01:13
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The Economist taking the GOP to task.
Their remarks against Obama are completely unexpected, given the source. But their sharp words for the GOP is new, and newsy, IMO. Like Bruce Bartlett, they pretty much are calling the modern GOP pathological in their approach to governing.
Loved this line: Teddy Roosevelt broke up over-mighty companies, rather than doling out tax breaks to them.
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| | | 343 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 19:27
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What does he have to say about M Bachmann, who was an Atty for the IRS and now a House member? She has never drawn a paycheck, that wasnt issued by the US Govt.
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| | | 345 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 23, 2012, 10:58
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I know a few people here are from Washington state, after reading this article on slate(can't post link since the link contains forbidden words) about the senatorial race I curious what your thoughts are. It seems interesting to have a race where the republican is anti-war and democrat is pro-war.
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| | | 346 | Tree
ID: 157322319 Thu, Aug 23, 2012, 21:36
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Strippers look to GOP to 'make it rain'
When the Christian group Promise Keepers held a convention in Tampa a couple of years ago, attendees flooded the 2001 Odyssey, co-owner Jim Kleinhans recalls. They had such a good time that "they kept their promise to come back the next night."
...if past conventions are any indicator, Republicans are likely to outspend Democrats heavily at topless bars and strip clubs, says Angelina Spencer. She heads the Association of Club Executives, an organization for the nation's 4,000 "gentleman's club" owners.
Family values and the sanctity of marriage! woot!
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| | | 349 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 00:46
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We shouldnt contort the voting process to accommodate the urban read African-American voter-turnout machine.
A Republican told the truth
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| | | 392 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Aug 26, 2012, 22:00
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Charlie Crist (former Rep Gov of FL) endorses Obama
In Sunday's op-ed, Crist went after his former party, citing Rep. Todd Akin's (R-Mo.) "legitimate rape" comments as an example of right-wing extremism.
"As Republicans gather in Tampa to nominate Mitt Romney, Americans can expect to hear tales of how President Obama has failed to work with their party or turn the economy around," Crist writes. "But an element of their party has pitched so far to the extreme right on issues important to women, immigrants, seniors and students that they've proven incapable of governing for the people. Look no further than the inclusion of the Akin amendment in the Republican Party platform, which bans abortion, even for rape victims."
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| | | 394 | Boldwin
ID: 55815217 Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 23:19
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The Telegraph: [British newspaper]...this campaign is going to consist of the debate that all Western democratic countries should be engaging in, but which only the United States has the nerve to undertake. The question that will demand an answer lies at the heart of the economic crisis from which the West seems unable to recover. It is so profoundly threatening to the governing consensus of Britain and Europe as to be virtually unutterable here, so we shall have to rely on the robustness of the US political class to make the running.
What is being challenged is nothing less than the most basic premise of the politics of the centre ground: that you can have free market economics and a democratic socialist welfare system at the same time. The magic formula in which the wealth produced by the market economy is redistributed by the state from those who produce it to those whom the government believes deserve it has gone bust. The crash of 2008 exposed a devastating truth that went much deeper than the discovery of a generation of delinquent bankers, or a transitory property bubble. It has become apparent to anyone with a grip on economic reality that free markets simply cannot produce enough wealth to support the sort of universal entitlement programmes which the populations of democratic countries have been led to expect. The fantasy may be sustained for a while by the relentless production of phoney money to fund benefits and job-creation projects, until the economy is turned into a meaningless internal recycling mechanism in the style of the old Soviet Union.
Or else democratically elected governments can be replaced by puppet austerity regimes which are free to ignore the protests of the populace when they are deprived of their promised entitlements. You can, in other words, decide to debauch the currency which underwrites the market economy, or you can dispense with democracy. Both of these possible solutions are currently being tried in the European Union, whose leaders are reduced to talking sinister gibberish in order to evade the obvious conclusion: the myth of a democratic socialist society funded by capitalism is finished. This is the defining political problem of the early 21st century
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| | | 395 | Boldwin
ID: 55815217 Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 23:20
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Source
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| | | 396 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 00:05
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#394 - excellent synopsis
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| | | 397 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 00:41
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and the reason for the failure, if that is what it is to be, is the same reason why communism as a theory is sound, yet fails in practice...greed.
Since the 1980s, 80% of the increase in incomes, went to the top 1% of income earner. This leaves only 20% of the pie, to trickle down and find its way amongst the remaining 99% of the populace. Just as greed on the part of those who would oversee the distribution of gathered goods in the communist state, undermines the very theory; so to does greed on the part of the unchecked capitalist undermine the theory of free enterprise.
Hence, the need for a hybrid 'free' enterprise or capitalist system. One where regulations, protect the very society which allows FOR capitalism, FROM capitalisms cannibalistic nature.
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| | | 398 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 09:27
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Yes, sarge, while #394 offers a basic premise which I believe to be true(that you can have free market economics and a democratic socialist welfare system at the same time), it fails to properly detail necessary steps to balance the systems, and it really has no place in a Direction of the GOP thread, since the GOP currently offers a premise(continued tax cuts for the wealthy, expanded defense spending, social policies which deny freedoms) that does little to nothing to address how to avoid a dire economic future. An ideology which pits private enterprise and government as adversaries, instead of a partnership designed to benefit society as a whole, isn't a recipe for stability as we move forward.
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| | | 399 | Boldwin
ID: 51848310 Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 11:53
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At the present time there exists no convincing evidence that both capitalism and a full-blown European style welfare state can viably economically coexist and plenty to suggest that they can't.
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| | | 400 | Boldwin
ID: 51848310 Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 11:59
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There are only so many layers of kids, grandkids, great grandkids, etc whom you may bankrupt on paper before the system is fatally exposed and discredited.
There are only so many enemies of the USA who will lend you their money to prop up such a bankrupt construct and for only a limited finite time period.
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| | | 401 | Boldwin
ID: 51848310 Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 12:11
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To be fair, there is also no evidence marxism and a teeny tiny, 'sorry we can't even afford sterilized needles' marxist welfare system is viable either.
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| | | 402 | Boldwin
ID: 51848310 Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 12:15
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So you can be sure it will soon be 'discovered' that the crony-capitalist/communitarian China and Russia carry no debt and look better by comparison...
...when you don't factor in the 'cloward-piven social spending into bankruptcy' factor.
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| | |
| | | 404 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 00:49
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Literally every policy position of the Republican party can be explained in this light: Obstructing or denying equal access to healthcare, public education, equitable taxation, legal protection; obstructing or denying marriage equality, workplace safety, voting rights, a living wage; obstructing or denying a womans right to choose, and a fair-minded Supreme Court that would value the freedom of the individual over the power of corporations this is how you create a permanent aristocracy, where only the rich can afford equality....Michael Stipe
I think, the man put it very well.
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| | | 405 | Boldwin
ID: 44810109 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 10:25
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Every public policy position of the republican party, [that doesn't come from the CFR] is based on the idea that no matter how clever or noble sounding central planning is, 'pretty soon you run out of other people's money'.
And then no one can afford anything. All the safety net collapses, public and private.
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| | | 406 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 11:28
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Every public policy position of the republican party
I don't believe this is true at all. I think the GOP, like the Dems, conveniently neglect to think about long term cost when it comes to the programs they really support.
This is why we are in such deficit trouble today--the GOP ran up huge amounts of debt during the Bush years.
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| | | 407 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 11:35
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other people's money
That doesn't mean anything. It ignores that the discepancy between the wealthy and the middle class has widened over decades, leaving the country vulnerable to the stagnation in growth we're currently experiencing.
gIncome inequality in this country is just getting worse and worse and worse,h James Chanos, president and founder of New York-based Kynikos Associates Ltd., told Bloomberg Radio this week. gAnd that is not a recipe for stable economic growth when the rich are getting richer and everybody else is being left behind.h
Since 1980, about 5 percent of annual national income has shifted from the middle class to the nationfs richest households. That means the wealthiest 5,934 households last year enjoyed an additional $650 billion -- about $109 million apiece -- beyond what they would have had if the economic pie had been divided as it was in 1980, according to Census Bureau data.
The aristocratic notion that "the money" belongs to a select few, is reminiscent of a caste system more suitable to the Middle Ages.
One of the main equalizers in this country has been access to higher education for the poor and middle class through scholarships, grants and low interest loans. That equalizer would be weakened dramatically if it were up to Paul Ryan.
Rep. Ryanfs fiscal year 2013 budget specifically targets the Pell Grant program for massive budget cuts. Our analysis of Rep. Ryanfs budget shows that it would slash more than $15 billion of mandatory and discretionary funding from the Pell Grant program beginning next year. Thatfs a 42 percent cut to Pell Grants. The impact of Rep. Ryanfs cuts to the Pell Grant program would be devastating, including: Eliminating Pell Grants for more than 1 million students Reducing remaining Pell Grants by more than $1,500 per year Adding thousands of dollars in loan debt to low-income college students and their families link
If your mindset believes allowing educational opportunities to the financially challenged is "central planning" (I suppose it's progress that Marxist planning wasn't used), then the concept of "other people's money" actually does mean something, disgusting and un-American as it is.
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| | |
| | | 409 | Boldwin
ID: 44810109 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 14:32
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other people's money - Boldwin/Margaret Thatcher
That doesn't mean anything. - PV
They believe in an endless money tree.
It's spoiled greedy kid stuff. There will always be someone to beg, borrow or steal from.
Exactly why liberals will always end up with nothing left to redistribute but poverty.
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| | | 410 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 14:44
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Who sis this mysterious, all encompassing they?
I will advise you now, you no less than you think about what we believe. As for theft. There has been one recent Wall Streeter prosecuted for theft. Bernie Maddoff. Why was he prosecuted?
Because he stole FROM the 1% you so blindly support.
Other peoples money...THAT, is what some members of the top 1% took FROM the middle class, over the past 2-3 decades.
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| | | 411 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 18:30
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FOXNews doing its job in Ohio
When asked Who is more responsible for Osama bin Ladens death, Barack Obama or Mitt Romney?, 15% of Ohioan voters who identified themselves as very conservative gave credit not to the Commander in Chief and mission strategist, but to former Governor Mitt Romney ummm say what??! Also, 6% of somewhat conservative people named Mitt as their pick for the bin Laden operation mastermind.
Say WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?
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| | | 412 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 20:32
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obstruct and exploit...the GOP mantra
Does anyone remember the American Jobs Act? A year ago President Obama proposed boosting the economy with a combination of tax cuts and spending increases, aimed in particular at sustaining state and local government employment. Independent analysts reacted favorably. For example, the consulting firm Macroeconomic Advisers estimated that the act would add 1.3 million jobs by the end of 2012.
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| | | 413 | Boldwin
ID: 118591015 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 20:39
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Jury nullification, Sarge. "We don't care how you want us to vote." "I got yer push poll right'cheer."
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| | | 414 | Boldwin
ID: 118591015 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 20:41
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Ooooh...1.3 million more SEIU workers. How irresistible.
Let's not.
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| | | 415 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 22:22
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1,300,000 is a little more than 10% of the current unemployed. Unemployment is 8.3%. 10% of that is .83. Those jobs, bring unemployment down to 7.47% and THAT, is something the GOP didnt want.
Why?
Because no President has ever been re-elected with unemployment over 8%. Thats one of the drums, the GOP is pounding away at right now. had they passed this Act however, they would have lost that drum.
And you would reward them for that.
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| | | 416 | Boldwin
ID: 25818119 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 10:18
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No business [or government] can long exist, where the employees get a blank check.
Especially when there are 1.3 million new ones.
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| | | 417 | Boldwin
ID: 25818119 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 10:33
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Example:
Chicago teachers turn down 16% pay raise and go out on strike because an average $76,000 per 9 months, plus 16% just isn't good enuff in the middle of a depression.
Just remember who runs the Democrats.
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| | | 420 | Boldwin
ID: 25818119 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 12:07
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DWetz
I of course haven't overlooked the whole union/Rahm/Obama triangle.
This ridiculous strike is once again a continuation [so notable in Wisc] of the war against taxpayers and domination of the nomenklatura over the lower class and the Democrat party.
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| | | 421 | Boldwin
ID: 25818119 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 12:14
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Can you imagine being poor in Chicago...
...knowing the teachers are deliberately not teaching your kids and lifting them out of poverty...
...knowing the teachers are resisting accountability, refusing to assure that your kids get educated...
...knowing that in the face of the subsistence plantation handouts you live off, the teachers turn up their nose at $76,000...
...in the middle of a depression that isn't cutting you any slack...
...and shelling out childcare from your welfare check to cover the school babysitting that isn't going on...
...yeah, this is election year gold.
[keep denying where the enthusiasm advantage lies]
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| | | 422 | Building 7 pro-rater
ID: 87592712 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 15:31
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$76,000 for 9 months is equivalent to $101,333 for 12 months, if they were to receive the same rate of pay for an entire year.
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| | | 423 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 15:51
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so what? How much would you want, to baby-sit 30 kids all day, educate them, and teach them social skills? All the while, dipping into your own pocket to provide classroom materials for you TO do the job?
I think we as a society, need desperately, to re-evaluate our priorities. We pay 22 yr old kids straight out of college, multi-millions/yr because they are quick and have exceptional eye-hand coordination. Then we ea pay $100+ ticket, to go watch them run fast. But at the same time, whine about what the teacher wants to be paid. And FTR, those other 3 months? That isnt generally a 90 day vacation. Teachers attend ALL KINDS, of workshops and such. And during the 9 month school year, how many thousands of hours do they put in at home, grading papers and preparing lesson plans? How many extra hours organizing and engaging in extra curricular activites, parent-teacher conferences, etc etc etc.
Lets go ahead, and pay them what the job is REALLY worth.
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| | | 424 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 15:53
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One final point;
according to Mitt Romney, $374,000 is "not very much"; so lets go ahead and pay those teachers "not very much".
link
Mitt Romney has a new definition of "not much": $374,327.
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| | | 425 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 16:06
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I wonder if that includes administrator salaries? The Seattle district has over 100 folks in administration making over 100K, skewing the average. And their competence is extremely questionable. Most of the teachers are great however. Median might be more appropriate.
They are also required to contribute to their pension and don't qualify for SS. I would never contribute to a pension that can be snatched away when the political winds run foul.
Salaries by City
Salaries by Country
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| | | 426 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 16:35
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"$76,000 for 9 months is equivalent to $101,333 for 12 months, if they were to receive the same rate of pay for an entire year."
And shopping mall Santas make like $60,000 a year if you prorate the two weeks before Christmas all year. Clearly the Santa Claus union has too much power. I, for no good reason whatsoever, blame the Democrats for this horrible overpayment of shopping mall Santas, who should at MOST be paid minimum wage and perhaps a nice pair of argyle socks if they're lucky.
(Of course, this "prorate them to 12 months a year" assumes that teachers are sitting in their gold-plated Jacuzzis all summer and not, you know, even preparing a little for the school year to come. It's the sort of line someone who has absolutely no concept of what a teacher's typical day or year is like tries to throw out to make themselves sound marginally smart, but it always fails.)
I actually think the teachers are wrong in this one, but it's funny how nobody mentions that the 16% pay raise comes with a 30% increase in the hours worked during the school day. Try that "we're going to increase your required hours worked by 30% and your pay by about half as much" in any other profession and see how many people think it's FREEEEE MONEY for that profession.
Of course, when most of your political arguments depend on people being as uneducated as possible, it only makes sense to vilify the educators every chance you get.
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| | | 427 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 16:40
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"DWetz
I of course haven't overlooked the whole union/Rahm/Obama triangle."
Well, clearly you have, since you're blaming the Democrats while ignoring the fact that it's a Democrat who's against the teachers here.
It's almost as if your entire thought process goes something like:
1. Something bad happens somewhere in the world. Or maybe it doesn't. 2.???? 3. Blame the Democrats! Now, if you'd actually attempt to explain step 2 once in a while instead of just skipping directly to step 3, we might be able to have a discussion. But if Step 3 is all you've got, there's really just no point in having the Politics forum at all, because that's what dragged it down in the first place.
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| | | 428 | Boldwin
ID: 25818119 Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 20:17
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but it's funny how nobody mentions that the 16% pay raise comes with a 30% increase in the hours worked during the school day. - DWetz
But it's not funny that you failed to mention that Rahm isn't asking teachers to teach extra hours on their timecard. That after school baby-sitting is to be performed by other extra teachers.Take the mayor's goal of stronger schools. The solution was a longer school day. Emanuel tried to push the Chicago Teachers Union into working more hours, which only increased tensions with the union as labor talks loomed. Last week, Emanuel backed off and said he'd hire more teachers instead. BTW this idea of increased school hours is a pernicious GOAL2000 plan to make sure progressives raise your kids, and mold their values instead of you. Eight hours a day isn't enuff for their purposes.
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| | | 431 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 11:13
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Megan McCardle highlights an interesting psychological barrier in this thing:
Chicago public school teachers have planned their lives around the way the school system is right now. Anything that threatens this status quo is likely to trigger a violent reaction--particularly since jobs from which it is impossible to be fired tend to attract people who are unusually risk averse.
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| | | 432 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 11:26
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"BTW this idea of increased school hours is a pernicious GOAL2000 plan" (blah blah blah)
It couldn't, just possibly, be to have more time to actually educate kids in, you know, reading and science and math and stuff? That's not even on the table as something that makes sense to you?
It's stuff like blah blah blah GOAL 2000 that makes it very hard, even when you do come up with a valid point (I was unaware that they'd changed the proposal regarding the extra school hours, congratulations), to take you seriously.
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| | | 433 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 11:32
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Eight hours a day isn't enuff for their purposes.
Chicago has had one of the shortest school days in the country for some time--about an hour less per day, on top of being about ten days shorter for the school year. I don't think it is fair to take teachers to task for failing students while squeezing instructional time away from them.
Here's a useful primer on the strike.
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| | | 434 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 11:33
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BTW, I think the union's clear overreaction has greatly strengthened Emanuel's hand in all this from a political standpoint.
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| | | 435 | Boldwin
ID: 218361210 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 12:10
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There isn't anything useful going on in the proposed extra time. Longer recess and breaks, physical ed, art...you might as well say it's a baby-sitting dispute.
Except it's also the most direct well timed poke in the eye to the Democrat power structure [right in Rahm and Obama's eye] that union bosses can make, reminding them who really runs things.
It's a makeup move to cover for the defeat in Wisconsin.
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| | | 436 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 12:23
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I think the unions are overly sensitive right now. And they've picked a fight they will lose. Without Emanuel on their side and a sudden strike call while contract negotiations are going on, they are losing the public relations war as well.
As for your assertion of the time, I don't think one need employ even a little common sense to see that combining some of the most difficult students in the country with a shorter school year and a 20% shorter school day is a disaster for performance. Which is exactly what we are seeing here. Sure, if we were talking about 8 hours a day I'd agree that much is filler. But we're not.
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| | | 437 | Boldwin
ID: 218361210 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 12:43
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they are losing the public relations war as well
Now this is a really interesting issue.
Like Wisconsin they picked home turf for a fight they thot they could win.
Chicago is political handout central. It's welfare queen mardi gras. People are 'honk if you support'ing like crazy.
Now it's a national public relations negative, I'll give you that.
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| | | 438 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 13:10
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As for your assertion of the time, I don't think one need employ even a little common sense to see that combining some of the most difficult students in the country with a shorter school year and a 20% shorter school day is a disaster for performance. Which is exactly what we are seeing here. Sure, if we were talking about 8 hours a day I'd agree that much is filler. But we're not.
Are you sure about this? Homeschool kids will often send only few hours a day in a learning environment and then turn around out preform school educated children. I am not saying that having kids go to school for 4 hours a day is good idea, but I think Boldwin is right to some extent this is baby sitting issue. If this was about education then we would here people complaining that there children are not going to get a full education because of the strike but instead all we hear is that crime will go up because of the strike.
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| | | 439 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 13:10
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"There isn't anything useful going on in the proposed extra time... physical ed, art..."
link
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| | | 440 | Boldwin
ID: 218361210 Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 13:55
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And talk about pyric victory, the number of parents looking into homeschooling and online education alternatives, and there is amazing progress there, has gone thru the roof.
Nothing would please me more than to see these greed-heads strike themselves right out of relevance.
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| | | 442 | Tree
ID: 3825149 Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 10:32
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sometimes, i wonder if this thread needs to be retitled "The Directionless of the GOP..."
GOP elector won't vote for Romney and resigns
Occasionally a so-called faithless elector decides not to vote or to vote for someone other than the winner. The defection of multiple electors would be unprecedented in modern American politics.
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| | | 443 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 14:03
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Birthers are STILL at it
alternative link for MITH since he hates the site of the 1st one
(from the 1st link): The birthers are at it again. This time, the communications manager for the College of Veterinary Medicine at Kansas State University, Joe Montgomery, has made the birther case before the Kansas Objections Board, composed of Secretary of State Kris Kobach, Attorney General Derek Schmidt and Lt. Gov. Jeff Colyerall Republicans. He based the argument on several claims, the primary being that as the presidents father was a citizen of Kenya at the time of the presidents birth, it would automatically grant British citizenship upon his son upon birth, which would disqualify the president from being on the ballot. He presented several Supreme Court decisions in order to make his case.
His filing said, in part:
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| | | 444 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sat, Sep 15, 2012, 15:21
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Montgomery has already withdrawn his objections, and as such, the case as been dropped.
i wish he hadn't. it would have been quite interesting to see how the all-Republican Kansas Objections Board would have voted.
i suspect that's the real reason he withdrew his objections. If they voted to keep Obama on the ballot, the Conservatives would have eaten their own, and called them traitors.
if they voted him off the ballot, all hell would have broken lose, and i think we'd have a major Constitutional crisis.
ADDENDUM - as i was about to post this, i read an article from the Huffington Post with the following update:
UPDATE: 7:06 p.m. -- The Kansas secretary of state's office sent out a statement Friday saying that the state Objections Board will meet as scheduled Monday morning. The statement said the meeting, which starts at 10 a.m. CT, will consider Montgomery's complaint and his decision to withdraw the objection. Kobach's spokeswoman, Kay Curtis, told the Topeka Capitol-Journal that the withdrawal is "unprecedented" and the meeting would be held to accept it.
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| | | 445 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Sep 16, 2012, 20:28
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Republicans actually did, what they falsely accuse Obama of having done
Theres little Republicans love more these days than falsely attacking President Obama for stripping work requirements out of welfare.
But in their zeal to slash and de-federalize safety net programs, theyve advanced legislation that would do exactly that.
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| | | 446 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 23:58
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Rep Peter King with Soledad OBrien
link
OBRIEN: Everyone keeps talking about this apology tour and apologies from the President. And Im trying to find the words Im sorry, I apologize in any of those speeches. Which I have the text of all those speeches in front of me. None of those speeches at all, and if you go to factcheck.org which we check in a lot, they all say the same thing. They fact check this and they say this whole theory of apologies
KING (angrily): I dont care what fact check says!
OBRIEN: Well, okay, theyre a fact checker. You may not care, but theyre a fact checker.
GOP logic
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| | | 447 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 09:44
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Barack Obama's Top 10 Apologies: How the President Has Humiliated a Superpower
And BTW, what an excellent example of where the potemkin 'fact-checkers' are caught shilling for Obama.
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| | | 448 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 09:48
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The lack of the words "apology" or "sorry" make then more self-criticisms than an apology. Of course, the Right sees no difference between them.
In short, none of them are apologies.
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| | | 449 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 09:52
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Bwahaha!
If it doesn't use the word apology, it must not be.
Brilliant.
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| | | 450 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 09:54
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So explain to me why these are actual apologies? I think you cannot see the difference between self-criticism and apologizing.
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| | | 451 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 09:58
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Frankly, a whirlwind tour around the world spreading the message, "We suck" constitutes presidential malfeasance.
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| | | 452 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 10:00
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And it didn't pacify the intended audience either.
So much for 'smart diplomacy'.
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| | | 453 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 10:10
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Is that what he said--"we suck"?
Which of those self-criticisms, specifically, do you disagree with?
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| | | 454 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:18
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That America needs to apologize to anyone else for it's past, that America is the problem.
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| | | 455 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:19
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So America should never admit mistakes? Why is that a goal at all? It isn't even in our own best interest to do so.
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| | | 456 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:29
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Stop engaging him, PD. Do you try to talk rationally to a screaming one year old? Boldwin is off the hinges and inconsolable for the next 50 days as it becomes more and more obvious that a Democratic president is going to be re-elected.
This thread and others have been turned into a litter box filled with the rantings of a lunatic. If I could, I would give Boldwin a 60 day go-somewhere-else ban to allow the adults to discuss the important matters. Asking Boldwin to respect this forum is folly. Ignore him.
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| | | 457 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:48
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Its the kind of person I am, I guess. Some people respond to rants with counter-rants (or, rarely, with outright hatred). I just try to confront them with questions intended to clarify things.
I agree that he's been pushing the line lately (sarge as well) and, at times, gone over.
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| | | 458 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:51
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I know your purpose is to quickly shift people's attention from the overall nature of apology and get bogged down in the details...however with that pointed out, I'll indulge you.
1) America is not remiss in failing 'celebrating your dynamic union'.
The EU is a wrong-headed socialist and globalist disaster that is going to drag us down with it.
There is a lot there to be rightly dismissed and derided.
2) America does not have a problem in relations with jihadis because 'We sometimes make mistakes'.
We have a problem with them because they have a non-negotiable demand that Israel dies and we become muslim.
3) You cannot 'restore' 'the same respect and partnership that America had with the Muslim world'...
...when you put radicals in Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood in charge of the entire muslim world.
4) No one who seeks 'an equal partnership' with Castro and Hugo Chavez belongs anywhere near the WH.
Nor should they apologize for not having done so.
5) America has no need to grovel before the world for favor as if it's been a bad boy that needs to get back in good favor.
When you are right you are right even if people don't like you.
When Reagan was the derided cowboy, he was proved in the right and all that european complaining and derision died an ignominious death, if you noticed.
6) America does not need to apologize for Guantanamo Bay.
7) America should not be apologizing to Turkey for America's past while ignoring that Turkey still has it's Kurd's on the trail of tears.
8) The best service America can give the rest of the America's is as an example of what works.
No we don't need to become just like them.
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| | |
| | | 460 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:55
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Seriously MITH? You think Reagan was apologetic and Obama isn't?
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| | | 461 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:56
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I think seeking out reasons to criticize others while never being self-critical ourselves is a recipe for disaster. The neo-con ability to miss goals while digging us in deeper is now thoroughly debunked by actual real world examples. I'm sorry, but I think you are going 180 degrees the wrong way.
Regarding the "apology," it seems a bit disingenuous to claim Obama is on an "apology tour," then swap that argument out when asked for clarification in light of the actual examples you yourself have provided. So repudiate the examples, or back them up (though I admit you are consistent in acting as you would have America act: Never apologize, never take your offense off the field, and ignore any and all requests for respectful clarification).
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| | | 462 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 11:59
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#460 was respectful and thorough.
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| | | 463 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:04
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And concise. In a short and concise post I slayed every apology listed except...
...I avoided discussing Obama in charge of the CIA. You don't want to hear what I have to say about it.
...I avoided the last point because it had already been covered earlier.
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| | | 464 | Mith
ID: 15881816 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:06
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460 - Lets take an objective look.
Post the most apologetic thing you think Obama has said and we'll compare it in context with what the Reagan said in the above examples.
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| | | 465 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:11
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Your contention is just too ridiculous.
Anyone who could be fooled into believing Reagan had the same hat-in-hand attitude as Obama is either too young to remember or so delusional as to not be worth debating.
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| | | 467 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:18
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The one where I took you to task for the Hitler reference?
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| | | 468 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:23
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#458
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| | | 469 | Tree
ID: 48830199 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:43
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Seriously MITH? You think Reagan was apologetic and Obama isn't?
i won't speak for MITH, but i think he was merely pointing out that presidents apologize. it's part of their job, and part of what they do. political party has no bearing on that.
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| | | 470 | Boldwin
ID: 37834198 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:47
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Attitude.
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| | | 471 | Mith
ID: 15881816 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:47
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he was merely pointing out that presidents apologize
That's right. It's also notable that the standards for exactly what constitutes an apology seem to change rather conviently for some.
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| | | 472 | Tree
ID: 48830199 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:58
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Attitude.
care to elaborate?
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| | | 473 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 14:11
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re #458 pt 2:
I saw an interesting commentary elsewhere yesterday, that pointed out Islam is some 1400 years old. How aboout, just for sh*ts and grins, we look at what Christianity was like when IT was 1400 years old?
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| | | 474 | Mith
ID: 15881816 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 14:38
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Missed this one - Reagan also apologized to Iran. "Yes," he replied when asked if the message constituted an apology.
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| | | 475 | Tree
ID: 88311916 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 17:33
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shhhhh....stop confusing people with facts.
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| | | 476 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 17:44
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Ronald Reagan: The best counterargument to the Tea Party's idolization of...Ronald Reagan.
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| | | 477 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 21:07
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GOP in Senate, kills Veterans Jobs Act by procedural measure
Supporters needed 60 votes and got only 58 to overcome an objection by Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., that the $1 billion in costs, although paid for through budgetary gimmicks, would have pushed VA over the spending limits set by last years Budget Control Act.
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| | | 478 | Tree
ID: 158342012 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 14:18
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Real Conservatives Apologize
The most moving of these conservative apologies was the one that Ronald Reagan made in 1988 on signing the legislation that provided $1.25 billion in reparations, along with a formal apology from the government, for the forcible relocation of 120,000 West Coast Japanese-Americans after the 1941 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
he most moving of these conservative apologies was the one that Ronald Reagan made in 1988 on signing the legislation that provided $1.25 billion in reparations, along with a formal apology from the government, for the forcible relocation of 120,000 West Coast Japanese-Americans after the 1941 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
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| | | 479 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 22:09
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I know you dont like this source MITH, and I am sure there are others, but look at this one:
New Mexicos Republican Governor Wants Proof Of Forcible Rape
Now, however, unless a woman who conceived and gave birth to a child as a result of rape can prove that she was forcibly raped, she will be denied assistance for childcare needed for work or education.
If adopted, this policy will have numerous implications. It establishes in state law a narrow definition of rape that can and will be applied in other areas of law and policy. It puts a heavy burden on women who have been raped and are now struggling economically to support a child or children to prove the *manner* in which they were raped, requiring that women who have left violent domestic partnerships, who were date-raped, who were impregnated as a result of incest, or through other non-forcible but nonetheless equally violent and denigrating means of sexual violation to first re-engage with their abusers to seek child support, putting control of their lives back into the hands of someone by whom they were violated in the most profound sense of the term, or to prove somehow they were victims of forcible rape or incest.
How the hell ANYONE can support todays GOP, totally baffles me.
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| | |
| | | 481 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 22:40
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If I were in fact still holding them, I would have been doing so as an independent contractor/prison system, at some $75,000+/yr per prisoner.
Sooooo, check please.
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| | | 482 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 01:43
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 Uploaded with ImageShack.us
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| | | 483 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 11:37
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I built that!
Actually, I did all the permissions work on it. But I can tell you that Sarah Palin did little of the actual writing of it.
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| | | 484 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 12:04
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To bad that she didn't write it, it might have had much better sales then. The same people would have bought it, but it might have a hit on the comedy charts.
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| | | 485 | Boldwin
ID: 378202110 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 13:04
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Even a Mercedes depreciates. Most hardbacks end up being priced like the paperbacks when they are up against the price competion of their paperback version. Would you really contend that every writer of a price reduced hardback is an inferior mind? Because they all will be.
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| | | 486 | Tosh Leader
ID: 057721710 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 13:19
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I would like to have a copy of this book in paperback. So far, I can only find hard-cover, and audiobook, and Kindle. Can you please provide me with a link to a paperback version. Thanks.
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| | | 487 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 13:24
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It isn't yet available in pb, Tosh. I'm not sure they will release it in pb, frankly. It seems unlikely they would get back the money they would have to shell out (I'm not 100% certain, but they might have to pay out another advance for a pb to Palin).
Baldwin is entirely right about hardcover remainders (except the competition now isn't paperback so much as ebooks. And political books particularly have a *very* short shelf life).
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| | | 488 | Boldwin
ID: 378202110 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 13:25
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Head on down to yer local bookstore.
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| | |
| | | 490 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 13:33
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The pb isn't yet out on that book.
I've done a ton of celebrity books (Caroline Kennedy, Sarah Palin, Julie Andrews, etc etc). I've literally seen people pick up the book at a book signing, then post the book on Ebay as they are heading away from the table after getting it signed by the author.
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| | | 491 | Boldwin
ID: 378202110 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 14:46
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PD
I don't mean to make a big deal out of this, but I've always been surprised you are so comfortable dissing projects you had contact with.
Just to be safe, shouldn't you be more careful?
Overconfident of internet confidentiality? Think your role is so tangential they wouldn't care?
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| | | 492 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 14:56
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It *is* a concern, but not a big one (mostly, because I don't diss too often, and only after dissing to the client during the project). And I never ever talk about projects while in the midst of doing them.
One of the sharpest learning curves I had to make was to learn when to shut up and when to speak up to clients. You always want to be the bearer of good news, but sometimes my job requires them to get bad news. Not an easy balance.
For that particular project, so much of the material was stuff she pulled from the internet, then talked about them. Unfortunately so much of the stuff from that internet contained factual errors (song lyrics with errors, or incomplete stories), and so the whole thing felt done on the fly by unpaid assistants. I told the client this at the time, several times, but they basically agreed but said to carry on.
I had no direct contact with the author, unfortunately, or I could have made the case a lot more clearly to her.
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| | | 493 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 15:13
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Just because it's for sale for $110 doesn't mean there are many more morons willing to pay $110.
There are lots for sale on ebay, but only 1 moron bought a collector's edition recently. For $37.
And that was a month ago.
ebay search
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| | | 494 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Sep 22, 2012, 22:54
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House GOP, calls for the toxification of the Earth
Specifically, the package would eliminate the Environmental Protection Agency's clean car standards, nullify the EPA's mercury and air toxic standards, weaken the Clean Water Act and block efforts to reduce damage from coal mining.
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| | | 495 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Sep 23, 2012, 15:02
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found that election fraud
Republican Staffers Charged With 36 Counts of Election Fraud
Four former staffers for resigned House Rep. Thaddeus McCotter have been charged with 36 counts of misdemeanor and felony election fraud. Yesterday one of those staffers, Lorianne OBrady, pled not guilty to five misdemeanor counts of submitting fraudulent signatures on a ballot petition. OBrady is the last of the four staffers to be arraigned; the other three, Don Yowchuang, Mary Melissa Turnbull, and Paul Seewald, were arraigned on similar charges on August 10th.
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| | | 496 | Boldwin
ID: 198562318 Sun, Sep 23, 2012, 19:56
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See right there? We need closer election oversight.
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| | | 497 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Sep 23, 2012, 21:33
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B? Voter ID laws do not address, this type of fraud. The type they would address, statistically, never happens.
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| | | 498 | Boldwin
ID: 198562318 Sun, Sep 23, 2012, 21:39
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Keep telling it.
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| | |
| | | 500 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Sep 23, 2012, 21:50
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Honestly Boldwin....How does a voter ID law, address the issue from that article?
I am reminded of something I believe bili mentioned in another thread. It is damn frightening, to think that there are that many people out there with this level of psychiatric issues.
Why is it B, you are unable/unwilling, to admit the truth?
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| | | 501 | Boldwin
ID: 298262322 Sun, Sep 23, 2012, 23:48
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Your 'truth' doesn't square with my Chicago experience in the slightest.
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| | | 502 | Boldwin
ID: 298262322 Sun, Sep 23, 2012, 23:50
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Or the results in the Minnesota clown debacle which you haven't adequately addressed, or with the election stole for JFK.
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| | | 503 | Boldwin
ID: 298262322 Sun, Sep 23, 2012, 23:55
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And you do like to keep things "on the square" I bet.
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| | | 504 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 00:15
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Why is it B, you are unable/unwilling, to admit the truth?
That is ALL the response you get from me, until you address that question.
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| | | 505 | Boldwin
ID: 298262322 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 04:26
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The illegal voting in several districts of Minnesota delivered us into the clutches of socialized medicine. Fraudulent voting and fraudulent vote counting is rampant and getting worse.
I believe republicans need to win by a 2 percent cushion just to prevent their wins from getting stolen.
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| | | 506 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 05:01
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Why is it B, you are unable/unwilling, to admit the truth?
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| | | 507 | Boldwin
ID: 298262322 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 05:26
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Somehow the civility standards don't apply to 'the big lie'.
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| | | 508 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 07:28
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Which is?
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| | |
| | | 510 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Wed, Sep 26, 2012, 10:33
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If they'd only asked for ID, none of that would be happening!
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| | | 511 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Wed, Sep 26, 2012, 11:05
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(On a serious note, I highly doubt that the county clerk's office is actually encouraging this behavior -- it's far more likely to be an individual volunteer, or group of volunteers, planted by the local party to try to screw things up. Dirty politics, to be sure, and ought to be illegal if it isn't, but I'm pretty sure it goes on everywhere. Usually the volunteers are smart enough to not be so retardedly obvious about it though.)
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| | | 512 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Wed, Sep 26, 2012, 11:12
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eh, why not. let's post it here too. NSFW.
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| | | 513 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Sep 26, 2012, 12:07
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I love Sarah Silverman. Hilarious, smart, witty, and sexy, and spot on.
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| | |
| | | 515 | Boldwin
ID: 2992210 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:26
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Yeah, a real conservative would support Obama and what he's doing.
Unbelievable that anyone thinks Sullivan has even one toe remaining in the conservative camp.
Next we'll be told Reagan would be voting Obama.
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| | | 516 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:29
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You think he'd be voting for Romney? I guess in his demented phase...
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| | | 517 | Boldwin
ID: 2992210 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:35
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Romney would be leading by 25% in the polls with Reagan campaigning with him.
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| | | 518 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:42
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Not that I think much of Reagan, but I clearly have far more respect for him than you do, if you think that he would ever donate more than glassy stares and drool to a Romney campaign.
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| | | 519 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:52
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!
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| | | 520 | Boldwin
ID: 2992210 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:56
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Yeah, people who like to paint Reagan with drool and glassy stares can be counted on to respect him and faithfully represent him and his positions.
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| | | 521 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 12:06
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Tough crowd.
It's not like I'm dousing Jesus in feces or anything. Just trying to visually make the accurate point that Reagan would not have supported Romney unless he was already deep into his phase symptomatic Alzheimer's.
He has nothing in common with this latest hard right, inflexible, in-compassionate version of Romney, and I believe he would say so.
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| | | 522 | Tree
ID: 13926211 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 12:30
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He has nothing in common with this latest hard right, inflexible, in-compassionate version of Romney, and I believe he would say so.
without question, and his numerous remarks on compromise - in particular the ones aimed toward the hard-line far right conservatives, speak volumes to that.
too bad the right has selective hearing when it comes to their patron saint.
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| | | 523 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 12:35
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It bears repeating that many of those who worked with Reagan and knew him best are, at best, going through the motions with Romney or are completely against him this election. And they do so by citing the kind of influence Reagan had on their political choices.
The Far Right has forgotten that Reagan became President and did the things he did because he reached across the aisle (Reagan Democrats--remember them?). The current GOP rejects those same people as RINO's.
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| | | 524 | Boldwin
ID: 38930212 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 14:13
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He has nothing in common with this latest hard right, inflexible, in-compassionate version of Romney, and I believe he would say so.
He'd be suggesting Romney grow a backbone and you'd be calling Reagan an out of control jingoist cowboy once again.
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| | | 525 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 14:18
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No B. Didnt call him that, when I voted for him in 1980. Wouldnt call him that now. He got things done BECAUSE, he was willing and able to swallow some pride, and compromise. You know how that works...give to get? You just refuse to give, and figure everyone else should give to you, till its 100% your way.
3 words dude....
aint
gonna
happen
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| | | 526 | Boldwin
ID: 38930212 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 14:23
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Yeah you are a Reaganite now. As if. Libs did their level best to give Reagan the Palin treatment and his likability factor crushed your efforts.
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| | | 527 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 14:27
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If you refuse to work with the other side, then you yourself cannot be a Reaganite, Boldwin.
Reagan's legacy was in pulling people together, despite some on the far left sniping at him.
And Obama is far more like Reagan that you would admit. You've swapped places with the far left, in this case.
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| | | 528 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 14:28
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Yes B, I was a Reagan Democrat in 1980. Wasnt in '84, but was in 80.
Get over it...I dont fit as snuggly in the pigeon hole you have assigned for me, as you would like.
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| | | 529 | Tree
ID: 43945214 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 15:54
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He'd be suggesting Romney grow a backbone and you'd be calling Reagan an out of control jingoist cowboy once again.
you're guessing.
but what we do know is EXACTLY what he'd say to you.
from his autobiography, "An American Life".
"When I began entering into the give and take of legislative bargaining in Sacramento, a lot of the most radical conservatives who had supported me during the election didn't like it.
"Compromise" was a dirty word to them and they wouldn't face the fact that we couldn't get all of what we wanted today. They wanted all or nothing and they wanted it all at once. If you don't get it all, some said, don't take anything.
"I'd learned while negotiating union contracts that you seldom got everything you asked for. And I agreed with FDR, who said in 1933: 'I have no expectations of making a hit every time I come to bat. What I seek is the highest possible batting average.'
you wouldn't want Reagan (and his tribute to FDR) in your political camp, and he surely wouldn't want you in his.
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| | | 530 | Boldwin
ID: 21952219 Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 20:59
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The socialism and the bankruptcy is worse now. We are one straw away from a broken back.
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| | | 531 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 01:41
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The socialism and the bankruptcy is worse now. We are one straw away from a broken back.
your sky is falling opinion doesn't change the historical facts.
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| | | 532 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 02:01
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History Shows Stocks, GDP Outperform Under Democrats
According to McGraw-Hills (MHP : 54.81, +0.08, +0.15%) S&P Capital IQ, the S&P 500 has rallied an average of 12.1% per year since 1901 when Democrats occupy the White House, compared with just 5.1% for the GOP.
Likewise, gross domestic product has increased 4.2% each year since 1949 when Democrats run the executive branch, versus 2.6% under Republicans.
Even corporate profits show a disparity: S&P 500 GAAP earnings per share climbed a median of 10.5% per year since 1936 during Democratic administrations, besting an 8.9% median advance under Republicans, S&P said.
No rhetoric B, no empty theories or suppositions. Just 100+ years of historic fact. So please, cease with your chicken little nonsense, and lets discuss reality. OK?
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| | | 533 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 02:06
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That's OK--abortions rise under Republicans (and since none are covered by the government, this must be a win for the private sector, yes?)
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| | | 534 | Boldwin
ID: 21952219 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 06:47
|
Anyone who thinks history vindicates the performance of socialism and condemns the performance of free market capitalism is too far gone to be reasoned with.
History does validate that marxist sabotage is an effective way to kill free market capitalism and that capitalists will indeed sell the rope with which they are hung.
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| | | 535 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 09:44
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History does validate that marxist sabotage is an effective way to kill free market capitalism and that capitalists will indeed sell the rope with which they are hung.
it bears repeating the fact, since you're so keen on history and what it validates and doesn't validate, that virtually nothing you've ever said on these boards have come true.
yes, the infinite monkey theorem dictates you'll get it right now and then, but history shows you are wrong a significant majority of the time.
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| | | 536 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 10:08
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Tree - you are ignoring the fact that his basic premise is faulty. Obama is a staunch capitalist, and his major accomplishments have been far more free market than any responsible and thinking liberal would have liked.
His parrying with the scarecrows is getting more and more scary. His alternative universe is almost completely furnished and move-in ready.
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| | | 537 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 11:55
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Tree - you are ignoring the fact that his basic premise is faulty.
well yes. but that's often been the cae.
Obama is a staunch capitalist, and his major accomplishments have been far more free market than any responsible and thinking liberal would have liked.
i have this argument with plenty of my conservative friends. Obama hasn't exactly been the president i'd hoped he be. he is very disappointing. and while this isn't quite the lesser of two evils for me, the thought of Mitt Romney as president scares the crap out of me.
His parrying with the scarecrows is getting more and more scary. His alternative universe is almost completely furnished and move-in ready.
i like the phrase tilting at windmills better. :o)
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| | | 538 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 12:30
|
Anyone who thinks history vindicates the performance of socialism ...
No B, history demonstrates the total fallacy of that statement. That you hold to it, in the face of contradictory facts and a centuries worth of hard evidence, (let's see...how was that put again??..oh yes),"...renders you unqualified to intelligently comment on the subject."(thats my new favorite phrase FTR)
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| | | 539 | Boldwin
ID: 58939311 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 12:46
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Socialist programs are bankrupting America. Socialist programs are bankrupting the EU. Socialist programs worked so poorly for communist countries that they were forced to become more capitalistic.
It was tried for a whole century at the cost of hundreds of millions of lives lost and billions of lives impoverished and wasted, and proven an abject failure.
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| | | 540 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 12:57
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B? You are ignoring one simple truth...Obama, is not a socialist.
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| | | 541 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 14:43
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One?!!?
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| | | 542 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 14:45
|
easier to type, than the real number.
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| | | 543 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 15:05
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How about the fact that the consensus among those brains who have been fettered with the foolish requirement that they look at facts and data before reaching conclusions (a huge lodestone mind you) is that unregulated "capitalists" we're responsible for the vast vast majority of our current rather shabby economic position.
Do two wrongs make a right?
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| | | 544 | Boldwin
ID: 58939311 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 16:41
|
1) Capitalism doesn't create bubbles, central banks do.
2) Socialist systems which spend more than they have [or will ever have] don't get to blame capitalism for socialist overspending.
3) When banks have requirements so ridiculous that they make home loans to unemployed illegal immigrants to avoid lawsuits and government regulator hassles, don't blame crashes on evil bankers and predatory lenders or capitalism.
Loaning house loans to unemployed illegal aliens is not capitalism. It springs from the socialist desire to give everyone a house, marxist style.
4) Derivatives are a trickier issue. Unregulated or poorly regulated derivatives, at least the ones that failed, are like vapor insurance. They don't just become insolvent when they are needed, but they become insolvent in such a way that they crash the system. As such why were they allowed? Why were they allowed to be used as the favored T1 securities backing institutions of finance?
There is nothing inherently capitalist about bad regulation. The more socialist things become, the more bad regulation you will encounter. Risky leverage devices are not necessary for capitalism. They are just bad government.
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| | | 545 | DWetzel
ID: 312362513 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 16:43
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Stopped reading at "fact". Commie.
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| | | 546 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 17:09
|
(1) False. Speculators, create bubbles. Sort of like MLM, but with a commodity. (2) Fair enough But neither does a capitalist, get to call another capitalist a socialist. (3)Then I suggest the banks learn how to read the rules of the CRA. It specifically EXCLUDED the making of a loan to a minority if said loan violated sound business practices. (4) Thank Bush deregulation.
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| | | 547 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 17:16
|
(my 545 was @ 543, and best read with a smiley attached.)
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| | |
| | | 549 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 19:42
|
Pandering to the base. As a couple different Republicans have said, when they awakened to reality:
I put my hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. I did not put my hand on the Constitution, and swear to uphold the Bible.
Look where he is from. Georgia. Does it really surprise anyone, that he would deny knowledge in deference to theology?
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| | | 550 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 19:56
|
quote that puts the value of the rest of what this clown says, into perspective:
"I dont believe that the Earths but about 9,000 years old. I believe it was created in six days as we know them. Thats what the Bible says.
Any other questions, on why we NEED absolute separation of church and state?
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| | | 551 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 20:10
|
Creationism is whack unfortunately.
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| | | 552 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 20:21
|
This stuff stems from a very immature interpretation of the Bible. The Bible very clearly describes a single 'day' that started thousands of years ago and yet the Bible says that particular day is still going on.
I appreciate that he believes the Bible is inerrant, I do too, but he is the one making the Bible look silly.
In fact he is the one painting God a liar as his interpretation would require God to practice deception.
Actually the big bang theory very much supports a creation.
I imagine his embryology comment refers to the long discredited theory that embryos proceed to recreate steps of evoltion ie, going from fish stage to amphibian, etc, when in fact they do no such thing so I'll give him a pass there.
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| | | 553 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 01:39
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Actually the big bang theory very much supports a creation.
Absolutely.
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| | | 554 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 01:40
|
Let me just add that many of these creationists, because they have surrounded themselves with moral absolutes which know no bounds, make a serious mistake in assuming science is the same way.
Put another way, science does not say what caused a Big Bang. Nor, in the case of evolution, do they say anything about the soul. There is lots and lots of room for God in there.
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| | | 555 | Boldwin
ID: 40937423 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 02:49
|
The Bible doesn't even say anything about an alleged immortal soul either. It says disobey and you will die. Obey and God will remember you.
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| | | 556 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 03:59
|
That's true. Some scholars say that Hell means not having the eternal reward with God--that is, your soul dies as well.
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| | | 557 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 12:34
|
Govt is no good Superpac
Heres the text of the ad and the corresponding rating from Politifact:
Barack Hussein Obama will move America to:
Force Christian organizations to pay for abortions: MOSTLY FALSE (qualified by mostly only if you equate contraceptive access with abortions). Force Christian schools to hire non-Christian teachers: FALSE Force all states to permit same-sex marriages: FALSE Force military chaplains to perform same-sex marriages: PANTS ON FIRE Force doctors to assist homosexuals in buying surrogate babies: PANTS ON FIRE Force employers to give illegal immigrants the jobs of U.S. citizens: PANTS ON FIRE Force States to pay the college tuition of illegal immigrants children: FALSE Force courts to accept Islamic Sharia Law in domestic disputes: PANTS ON FIRE Force police agencies to allow Muslim brotherhood to select staff: PANTS ON FIRE Force local authorities to allow Occupy protestors to live in parks: PANTS ON FIRE Force creation of a permanent government funded underclass: Deemed too vague to investigate
...
When contacted by Politifact to ask for evidence of the outlandish claims, GING-PAC leader William J. Murray said the group didnt need evidence because it was making predictions.
Is it truly necessary, to run blatant lies to support a political campaign? When exactly, did the truth or something even remotely close to it become toxic to campaign advertising?
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| | | 559 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 18:43
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they are a publishing company, not a religious institution.
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| | | 561 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 19:53
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Carrying on the work of spreading Bibles to the masses, started by William Tyndale, is as perfect a description of religious as I am aware of.
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| | | 562 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 19:55
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A for profit publishing company, is not a church not a religious school, and your definition is a wee bit less than meaningless anyway. Its the legal definition that matters.
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| | | 563 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 20:07
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I suppose you think when the Watchtower, Bible and Tract Society pays their president $50 dollars a month to oversee spreading the word, that constitutes a non-religious for-profit activity also.
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| | | 564 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 21:51
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What I think it is or isnt, is as irrelevant s what you think it is or isnt. Does not matter. Frankly, I think an awful lot of these so called religious affiliated organizations, are phoney as hell and are USING religion to take money form gullible folks and line their own pockets.
You want make money? Start a church. You make stupid amounts of money? Start a religion.
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| | | 565 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 01:39
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link
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| | | 566 | Boldwin
ID: 37932618 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 06:40
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How well does it pay to tear down religion because you guys seem well motivated.
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| | | 567 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 11:44
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You mean, how well does it pay, to expose frauds?
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| | | 568 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 12:52
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"A Christian from 2012"
This WND fundraising letter (ha!) is directed at 2008 "Christians" telling them what will happen in 4 years if then-Senator Obama is elected.
When Obama is elected again, these nut heads are going to turn violent, I think. Four more years of stroking their own fears will need an outlet.
When it happens they will, of course, blame the MSM.
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| | | 569 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 13:37
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Why, you can not have a discussion with a Republican wingnut: (the following is copy/pasted from my FB)
Person "A": "we have a small business we made on our own with no help from the government."
My response: "you built your business, but you did not build the roads that bring you goods or customers. THAT is what Obama was referring to."
Person "B": "Jim your an idiot. The roads are built because there is a need."
***************************************
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| | | 570 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 13:40
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| | | 571 | Boldwin
ID: 4796714 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 16:36
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Even with roads, there is a difference between central planning and market driven placement.
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| | | 572 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 16:38
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lol another weak ass attempt to avid the obvious absurdity of your parties position.
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| | | 573 | Boldwin
ID: 4796714 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 17:06
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Thinking the government is an asset instead of a business liability is the absurd position. The ratio between helpfulness and obstruction is absurdly against the proposition that government is even helpful let alone key.
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| | | 574 | Boldwin
ID: 4796714 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 17:10
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Sarge
Describe for me the rapturous joy you experienced whenever the government showed up, 'Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help'. at your insurance business. How about when they showed up at the repair shop?
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| | | 575 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 17:14
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(A) They never showed up at the insurance office. (B) I never ran a repair shop. (C) A little inconvenience for me (or any one person) in trade for a reduced probability of repeating the BP disaster, or the Exon Valdez disaster, or the economic disaster....is a small price to pay.
Get over yourself. You are wrong.
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| | | 576 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Oct 08, 2012, 16:41
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Oppose abortion, favor Death Penalty for rebeliious children
The maintenance of civil order in society rests on the foundation of family discipline. Therefore, a child who disrespects his parents must be permanently removed from society in a way that gives an example to all other children of the importance of respect for parents. The death penalty for rebellious children is not something to be taken lightly. The guidelines for administering the death penalty to rebellious children are given in Deut 21:18-21:
Are you friggin kidding me????
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| | | 577 | Tree
ID: 53555306 Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 23:03
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it gets even better... Hooray for the GOP! are you for real?
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| | | 578 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 23:07
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His other letters call Abraham Lincoln a Marxist and celebrate the Confederate flag as a symbol of Christian liberty vs. the new world order.
Go go go go GOP!!!
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| | | 580 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Oct 10, 2012, 13:35
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I hoping when I clicked on the link it would be talking about elementary school children, while I would not agree with it, I would at least understand it.
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| | | 582 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 11:12
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That one Tree, is a bit of a stretch. The guys Dad said it to him, in a discussion to make a point about premarital sex. The quote itself then was taken entirely out of context.
Further, as the father of a young man who was accused of rape, by a woman who had consented but then got bent when my son didnt call her the next day so she claimed rape, I can only agree with what the Dads point was. It could have been worded better, but it was a Father-Son conversation. I doubt mo=any of us think about politically correct phrasing, during such a conversation.
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| | | 583 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 11:35
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for me, it's within the context of what some members of the GOP are stating publicly in regards to rape, and ultimately women's rights.
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| | | 584 | Boldwin
ID: 589301022 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:29
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Some girls 'cry' rape easy. Look no farther than the Duke lacrosse team. I've ministered in prison to someone who [yes I know everyone in prison has an 'I'm innocent' story] had consensual sex, but her parents insisted on prosecuting anyway.
I looked into the 'science' revolving around Akin's assertion. In truth not only does rape rarely cause pregnancy, sex of any kind rarely causes pregnancy. A woman's readiness in every sense does play a role in upping those relatively low odds.
This is not to accuse those women who do get pregnant of 'wanting it'. No, of course this factor isn't remotely close to reliable birth control. Yes the very committed part of the pro-life side has doubtless overstated the scientific case for this.
However to be pedantic about it, Akin is not entirely wrong about the science, and neither was Reagan about trees emitting hydrocarbons, or many other statements by Coulter, Limbaugh, Bachmann, etc, who do in fact have an interesting and/or surprising and seldom mentioned kernal of scientific truth on their side.
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| | | 585 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:41
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A woman's readiness in every sense does play a role in upping those relatively low odds.
Untrue. Pregnancy fro rape, or from consensual sex; occurs at virtually identical rates of frequency.
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| | | 586 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 15:47
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Akin is not entirely wrong about the science
He was exactly and entirely wrong about the science. You're right--sex rarely causes pregnancy--which wasn't his point.
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| | | 587 | Tree
ID: 429101113 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 16:11
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sex of any kind rarely causes pregnancy
you had to do research to discover this?!!? i learned that in Mrs. Johnson's 7th grade health class.
A woman's readiness in every sense does play a role in upping those relatively low odds.
unless you are discussing her readiness in regards to her monthly cycle, you are 100 percent wrong about this. you can't "will" yourself pregnant, or increase your chances because you "want" to get pregnant. it doesn't work that way.
anyway, to get away from the junk you're trying to pass off as science, here's an interesting article on the chances of getting pregnant.
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| | | 588 | Boldwin
ID: 589301022 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 16:45
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While you guys pretend to be doctors, you don't even play one on TV.
Physicians For Life
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| | | 589 | Tree
ID: 99281116 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 17:32
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never mind that you're quoting a non-profit religious organization with an admitted religious and political goal, but no one is here denying that pregnancies are, relatively, rare.
but to say that there is less of a chance because you're being raped, is ignorant, asinine, and dangerous.
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| | | 590 | Boldwin
ID: 589301022 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 17:35
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That it would interfere with hormones and the rate of miscarriages, I find self-evident.
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| | | 591 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 17:38
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The numbers really aren't that clear.
But before we get buried in a "he said/he said" argument, let's recall that no numbers of any sort respond to Akin's point, which was that there is a biological response to rape which prevents contraception from occurring. This is completely false.
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| | | 592 | Boldwin
ID: 589301022 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 17:49
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Well no. If even one pregnancy is prevented or ended by the trauma of rape's effect on hormones Akin isn't completely wrong at all.
What is deceptive is using rape to decide RvW. Abortions are in the millions and only @200 a year in this country are due to rape.
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| | | 593 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 18:03
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Then, you would be willing to make allowances for cases of rape, incest and mothers life in danger?
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| | | 594 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 18:07
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only @200 a year in this country are due to rape.
Or 16,000 (as I've seen elsewhere). We don't know the numbers--mostly, because Roe v Wade makes it acceptable (and legal) to take efforts to prevent implantation immediately after a rape occurs.
Ironically, RvW drives down the numbers you are using to try to overturn it.
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| | | 595 | Boldwin
ID: 589301022 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 18:12
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Sarge
Don't ask me. Ask God how many innocent babies we are allowed to kill.
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| | | 596 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 18:14
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Its a baby, post birth. Now, answer the question I asked.
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| | | 598 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 18:35
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#595: Why not answer #593? What exceptions, if any, are you willing to have?
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| | | 599 | Tree
ID: 99281116 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 18:47
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only @200 a year in this country are due to rape.
Or 16,000 (as I've seen elsewhere).
OR 32,000....
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| | | 600 | Boldwin
ID: 589301022 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 21:18
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I am unaware of any exceptions for any innocent person.
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| | | 601 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 21:21
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Nor are we.
Fortunately, the law's definition of "person", which matters, is quite different from your definition, which does not matter.
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| | | 602 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 21:21
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A fetus, is not a person. Answer yes or no, the yes or no question I asked you.
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| | | 603 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 21:23
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I think that the right-wingers need to allow welfare moms to collect dependent income the moment they're pregnant, if they want to persist with this narrow minded view.
Watch the heads explode then.
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| | | 604 | Boldwin
ID: 589301022 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 21:23
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Under Jewish law as delivered to Moses...it's a person. The penalty for killing them is death.
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| | | 605 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 21:26
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Under Jewish law as delivered to Moses...it's a person. The penalty for killing them is death.
Good luck with that time machine.
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| | | 606 | Boldwin
ID: 289441121 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 22:46
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I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just showing you whose side you are on.
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| | | 607 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 23:04
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That would be under the old Testament yes? The covenant you have said repeatedly was supplanted by the New? The "no longer valid" covenant?
yes or no. Answer 593.
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| | | 608 | Boldwin
ID: 289441121 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 00:27
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That would be under the old Testament yes? The covenant you have said repeatedly was supplanted by the New? The "no longer valid" covenant?
I was unaware the 'New' Testament included some new allowance for murder.
The old law covenant conclusively shows us God's view on the value of a baby, or an 'unviable tissue mass' in your contrary ephemistic rationalization.
No, God does not make allowances to murder babies. Not even the products of rape. How much clearer must I be?
Not that anyone else is asking me. Neither I or God rule this country.
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| | | 609 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 00:51
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It wasnt a matter of not being able to ascertain your answer.It was a matter, of your refusal to simply say yes or no, without the preaching. Something, you still cant do.
I will take it as a yes, that you were referencing the Old Testament then, which covenant you had already dismissed in the past as having been supplanted. Therefore, your argument, by your own declaration, is moot.
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| | | 610 | Boldwin
ID: 289441121 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 01:05
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No Sarge, God has not changed his opinion of life in the womb.
No one can show you from the Bible any permission for abortion. Not in any page anywhere.
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| | | 611 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 01:23
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A debate about religious motivations for one's abortion stance is worse than useless.
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| | | 612 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 02:46
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if we were to post all the things dumbasses have done because they felt that was the way of the bible, it would be an endless list.
then again, we'd also be getting away from the topic, which would be that of a man claiming to be an expert in things scientific not even having a basic knowledge of how a woman's body works.
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| | | 613 | Boldwin
ID: 289441121 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 04:28
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Physicians For Life.
Jon Adcock, M.D. Thomas Alford, M.D. Steven Alsip, M.D. Anne Bauer, M.D. James Belyeu, M.D. C. Adrien Bodet, Jr., M.D. C. Adrien Bodet III, M.D. Gary Boyd, M.D. Lev Bragg, M.D. Jeff Brassart, M.D. Rebecca Brewbaker, M.D. Nan Brinkerhoff, M.D. Denise Brown, M.D. Michael W. Brown, M.D. Edward Carlos, M.D. J. Terry Carlson, M.D. Gregory Champion, M.D. Alex Childs, M.D. Bart R. Combs, M.D. W. Alan Cook, M.D. Harold W. Cox, M.D. Salem K David, Jr., M.D. Donald Deinlein, M.D. P.A. Del Vecchio, M.D. Kevin Delli-Gatti, M.D., F.A.A.P. Douglas Dickinson, M.D. Fred Diegmann, M.D. Robert Doekel, M.D. Andre Doucet, M.D. Chris Duggar, M.D. Todd Edmiston, M.D. Harvey Edwards III, M.D. Kenneth Elmer, M.D. Ryan Estevez, M.D. Robert Eubanks, M.D. Paul Fellers, M.D. David Fleming, M.D. Lisa G. Franklin, M.D. D. Hugh Frazer, M.D. Earl Glenn, M.D. Alan Goodson, M.D. Michael Grelier, M.D. Robert Griffith, M.D. Alastair Guthrie, M.D. Charles Hagen, M.D., F.A.C.E.P. Oliver Harper, M.D. William Harris, M.D., F.A.C.S. James M. Harrison, Jr., M.D. Carter Harsh, M.D. Douglas Heimburger, M.D., M.S., F.A.C.P. A. Gerry Hodges, M.D. Andrew Hughes, M.D. Tim Hughes, M.D., F.A.C.O.G., F.A.C.S. Billie L. Jackson, M.D. David Jackson, M.D. Joe Johnson, M.D. Maria Johnson, M.D. Stan Johnson, M.D. Valerie Johnson, M.D. William M. Johnson III, M.D. William Johnston, Jr., M.D. Clifford Kauffman, M.D. John Kirkpatrick, M.D. Jerry L. Kitchens, Jr., M.D. John Koors, M.D. Michael Lathem, M.D. Michael Ledet, M.D. Scott Leeth, M.D. Robert Lewis, M.D. Wiley Livingston, Jr., M.D. F. Allen Long, M.D. Scott Loveless, M.D. Vicki Martin, M.D. K. Eric Mashburn, M.D. Joe D. McClinton, M.D. Robert McGinley, M.D. William McKenzie, M.D. J.F. McRae, M.D. W. Ryan McWhorter, M.D. Maria Meyers, M.D. Richard Miller, Jr., M.D. Michael Molitor, M.D. Douglas Moore, M.D. L. Doyle Moore, M.D. David Morrison, M.D. Gary Nelson, M.D. Patrick Nolan, M.D. Frank Page, M.D. Dennis Pappas, M.D. Dennis Pappas, Jr., M.D. W. Scott Pennington, Jr., M.D. C. Paul Perry, M.D. Michael Powell, M.D. Charles Prickett, Jr., M.D. Lance Radbill, D.O. Daniel Reimer, M.D. Braden Richmond, M.D. Renee' Riley R. Frank Roberts, M.D. Richard Roh, M.D. Christopher Rosko, M.D. Nathan Ross, M.D. Robert Rosser, M.D. Ronald Rudd, M.D. Robert Ryan, Jr., M.D. Stephen Samelson, M.D. Allen James Schmidt, Jr., M.D. William Schulte, M.D. Robert Sciacca, M.D. Justin Sedlak, M.D. Robert Shaffer, M.D. Ruth Shields, M.D. J. Michael Simon, M.D. John Simpson, M.D. Albert E. Smith, M.D. T. A. Staner, M.D. Brad A. Steffler, M.D. Samuel Stover, M.D. Earl W. Stradtman, Jr., M.D. Larry Stutts, M.D. Cornelius Sullivan, M.D. Brenda Carter Taylor, M.D. E. Lamar Thomas, M.D. Den Trumbull, M.D. Raymond Ufford, M.D. James Upchurch, M.D. Michael Vaughn, M.D. Richard Vest, Jr., D.D.S. John Waits, M.D. Herbert Walker, Jr., M.D. Debra Walks, M.D. Claude Warren, M.D. William Whitaker, M.D. J. Shan Young, M.D. H. Evan Zeiger, M.D.
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| | | 614 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 10:06
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Physicians For Life.
Jon Adcock, M.D...ad nausem
i don't know these people. without a photo id to prove who they are, they're all just frauds to me.
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| | | 615 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 12:34
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Reposting the same link doesn't give it double powers.
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| | | 616 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 12:34
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So, you can list a series of anti-choice doctors. Was there a point to that?
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| | | 617 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 14:31
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Pro-life GOP Congressman offered to pay for mistress' abortion. Thinks it is OK now because she was not, in fact, pregnant.
Several things:
-this seems to be exactly what they were warning about, with doctors performing abortions on women who aren't pregnant. :)
-this is only a problem for the GOP because, in some areas, there is no real competition for the job of Congressman except a pool of yahoos. And yes, Democrats have had the same problem in some areas (mostly, inner city congressmen who are often corrupt, stupid, or both).
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| | | 619 | Tree
ID: 39191313 Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 14:25
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still trying to figure out what post 613 means.
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| | | 620 | Boldwin
ID: 409351215 Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 17:04
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Still trying to figure out how people dismiss Physicians For Life and their understanding of conception.
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| | | 621 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 17:11
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More readily than you dismiss anyone or anything, which disagrees with your agenda, regardless of their expertise level compared to yours.
Those physicians, have an agenda....pure and simple. They are in a HUGE and overwhelming minority, amongst their own profession. That fact, doesnt make them wrong, but it greatly increases the likelihood, that their conclusions are tainted by what they WANT to be true, vs what actually is.
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| | | 622 | Boldwin
ID: 409351215 Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 17:40
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Yeah, it's not like there would be some evolutionary benefit to waiting until conditions were favorable before conceiving. Ignore all those hormones. I'm sure scientists do.
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| | | 623 | Boldwin
ID: 409351215 Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 17:42
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Snakeoil!!! Quick, someone call the FDA!
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| | | 624 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 18:05
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When did you dismiss creationism, in favor of evolution?
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| | | 625 | Boldwin
ID: 409351215 Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 18:14
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Read and learnMore often than not, preeclampsia is the result of a hostile immunological maternal response to the paternal genome in the developing conceptus. In other words, the mothers body is unwittingly terminating a pregnancy that has arisen with a man for whom she has an incompatible biochemistry.
What makes this biochemistry incompatible? Its unfamiliarity, mainly. And this is the essence of the seminal priming construct: the risk of preeclampsia is substantially reduced when the woman has been exposed for an extended period of time to the fathers semen prior to conceptionand perhaps even after conception. Davis and Gallup, in fact, were not the first to discover this curious priming effect. By the early 1980s, scientists had started to notice that preeclampsia was more likely to occur in pregnancies resulting from one-night stands, artificial insemination and rape than in pregnancies that were the product of long-term sexual cohabitation. - Darwin's Morning After Pill Also a factor for women trying to become pregnant but whose previous birth control method prevented her from becoming acclimated to her partner's sperm.
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| | | 626 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 18:24
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right. You quote from a theory, as though it were uncontested fact. But only, and I stress ONLY, because it supports your narrow contention. If a well established principle opposed said contention, you would dismiss it with a flip of the hand.
A little intellectual honesty n your part, would go a very long ways for you.
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| | | 634 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 02:01
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New Hampshire is a swing state this cycle.
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| | | 636 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Sun, Oct 14, 2012, 15:14
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Still trying to figure out how people dismiss Physicians For Life and their understanding of conception.
there are what, 75 doctors on that list?
there are a whole lot MORE doctors than that in the world, with a better understanding of science and compassion.
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| | | 651 | Boldwin
ID: 4917199 Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 06:56
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Abortionists will hand that waiver out fraudulently to anyone who asks. The congressman is far closer to the truth and the actual intent of RvW than is the abortion mill industry.
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| | | 652 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 15:13
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Issa outs several US-friendly Libyans in rushed, politically-motivated document dump.
"It betrays the trust of people we are trying to maintain contact with on a regular basis, including security officials inside militias and civil society people as well," another administration official told The Cable. "It's a serious betrayal of trust for us and it hurts our ability to maintain these contacts going forward. It has the potential to physically endanger these people. They didn't sign up for that. Neither did we."
With friends like these...
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| | | 653 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 15:29
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But they're BROWN, dude. You can't trust 'em!
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| | | 654 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 15:34
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Like much of the GOP, I'm not convinced Issa is racist so much as clueless, and far too politically-motivated to be making the decisions he is.
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| | | 655 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 15:50
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Directly? Probably not.
Certainly allowing himself to pander to and/or be heavily influenced by people that definitely are racist/bigoted against Muslims for political reasons.
Which may be basically saying the same thing as you. And really, in the grand scheme of things, isn't much better.
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| | | 656 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 15:42
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OK, now this is so much horsesh*t
soup kitchen in faked Ryan photo-op sees conservative donations drop
Ryan supporters have now targeted Antal and his soup kitchen, Antal said, including making hundreds of angry phone calls. Some members of Antal's volunteer staff have had to endure the barrage as well, he said. "The sad part is a lot of [the callers] want to hide behind anonymity," he said, adding that if someone leaves their name and number he has tried to return their call. In addition to phone calls, people have posted a few choice words on the charity's Facebook wall, including statements like "I hope you lose your tax [sic] emempt status," Anyone who is thinking about donations to you should think twice" and "Shame on you Brian Antal!"
So, to recap: (1) Ryan arrives after the feeding has been done (2) Ryan arrives after the clean up for the meal has been done (3) Ryan dons an apron and scrubs a clean pot, faking a photo-op (4) He gets called on it (5) Conservatives blame the soup kitchen and quit donting
and THAT, is call "Christian compassion", by the self proclaimed "moral majority". Let me just mention, God sees all.
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| | | 657 | Boldwin
ID: 579242119 Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 21:15
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Admittedly one of the worst photo ops ever planned. There is a campaign staffer that needs firing.
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| | | 658 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 00:48
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Boldwin? There was no planning. At least, no coordination with the facility. It almost appears as if they were driving by and Ryan spontaneously decided it would make for a good photo-op.
All of which misses the point of my last, entirely. Which is that the Christian Conservative rightwing, is now withholding donations, to punish this facility for "embarrassing" Ryan. Nice move their folks....leave the hungry to BE hungry, cause your candidate is an ass-wipe who did something stupid.
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| | | 659 | Boldwin
ID: 579242119 Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 03:54
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Why didn't his team feel they would be welcome during business hours?
I would hazzard a guess that the liberals there would rather the poor get nothing than get it from Ryan.
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| | | 660 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 05:15
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Hahahaha. Yeah--maybe they could ask the homelsss to come 9-5 for their dinner, too.
His team probably didn't feel they would be welcome because the St. Vincent de Paul Society doesn't do photo ops.
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| | | 661 | Boldwin
ID: 579242119 Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 06:17
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What I especially enjoyed was that they felt 'bullied' by Ryan. The poor dears weren't even there but they felt bullied.
Thank goodness Ryan didn't show up when they were actually there. The psychic bully rays would have have darn near killed them prolly.
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| | | 662 | Boldwin
ID: 579242119 Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 06:22
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"All of which misses the point of my last, entirely" - Sarge
Well it's kinda like the squeegee guy. When you don't feel welcome it's hard to stick around and do yer good deed.
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| | | 663 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 06:35
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The kitchen was an impromptu stop they made after a campaign event. I think the bigger story here is the undue backlash they've received from donors (now former donors, I guess) for a photo op that Ryan look bad because he and his handlers didn't think it was the kind of thing that should have been coordinated beforehand.
I wonder exactly what good deed Ryan could have Been made to feel welcome to do. He didn't have long to hang around because he was on his way to the airport. They let him put on an apron and wash a dish. Apparently there were a few homeless people there who Ryan was able to have photogs shoot him speaking with (no reporters were allowed to hear the discussion tho).
Clearly this was all the charity's fault that Ryan didn't come out of there looking like a hero.
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| | | 664 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 07:08
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Update An online fundraising campaign started Saturday raised more than $12,000 in less than 30 hours for the Mahoning County St. Vincent de Paul Society.
The effort, started by users of Fark, an online news aggregator, quickly pulled together the effort on indiegogo.com in a show of defense to combat the backlash facing the society and its president, Brian J. Antal.
Antal faced criticism late last week from some donors who threatened to stop making contributions to the soup kitchen because of the way he responded to a visit from Republican vice-presidential-nominee Paul Ryan, whom Antal said ramrodded his way into the kitchen without permission for an impromptu photo opportunity.
But late Sunday, the fundraising effort had already gathered $12,125, far surpassing the goal of $10,000. Despite meeting the fundraising goal, organizers will keep the campaign going for 42 more days before turning the proceeds over to the soup kitchen.
Reached by The Vindicator on Friday, Antal said dozens had called the society to say they would stop contributing, but he added that in the same time those calls were overtaken by others showing support.
Thank you to all that are supporting the hard work of our volunteers and helping the 100,000 individuals we serve annually, Antal wrote in a statement on indiegogo.com over the weekend.
The faith-based society receives some federal funding, but mostly relies on private contributions to maintain its current level of service.
Ryan visited the soup kitchen on Oct. 13 after a woman who coordinates the dining hall gave him permission. Antal, who was unaware of the visit when it happened, said it was inappropriate for a politician to use the soup kitchen for a publicity stunt.
The news quickly went national, which left Antal dealing with mixed reactions from the public throughout the last week.
Those wishing to donate in the campaign can go to indiegogo.com/projects.
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| | | 666 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 21:03
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Do not reward the GOP for obstructionism
The result is that Republicans devoted themselves not to constructively criticizing Democratic proposals, crafting feasible alternatives, and accepting olive branches from the administration but instead to cranking up the hysteria and treating virtually every Obama initiative as a step toward socialism. They matched this with legislative obstruction, tying up scores of nominations, forcing a record number of filibusters, and forcing Democrats to pass their agenda on party-line votes.
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| | | 667 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 23, 2012, 21:31
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Mourdock: Rape Pregnancies Something That God Intended to Happen
Mourdock then seemed to choke back tears, and continued: "I've struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize that life is that gift from god. And even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."
Its God's fault. This, is the far rightwingnut whackjob for you.
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| | | 668 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Oct 23, 2012, 21:35
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Not God's "fault." He isn't talking about the rape, he's talking about the pregnancy.
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| | | 669 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 23, 2012, 21:48
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And it was Gods will then, those people in the Aurora movie theater died? Nothing to do with the bullets ripping into them?
No. Dont put this on God. Mans inhumanity to man, is not Gods will.
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| | | 670 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Oct 23, 2012, 22:02
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Is that what he said about Aurora? Where, exactly?
Or have you decided what he believed about it, gotten pissed, and have decided already?
Don't put this on Mourdock, either. You've no right to intentionally misunderstand what someone is saying simply because it helps you scratch your "Republicans are evil" itch.
Wrong when Baldwin does it to "liberals." Wrong when you do it to conservatives.
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| | | 671 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 23, 2012, 22:15
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No PD. It is wrong, whether or not it is a Rep or a Dem, who says that that pregnancy was "Gods Will". The Aurora incident, is presented as an analogy. Rather surprised I have to spell it out but since it appears I do...in the one case, the body is penetrated by sperm and a life is created. In the other, the body is penetrated by a bullet and a life is ended. If we say the one is Gods Will, then so too is the other. I say, neither is "Gods Will". Both, are examples of mans unhumanity to man, and THAT is most certainly NOT Gods Will.
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| | | 672 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Oct 23, 2012, 22:35
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It is a bad analogy because you refuse to come up with a comparative graceful nugget. Mourdock is saying that even in the midst of horror some grace might be found. You know any abused women? They got kids? Even in the midst of an evil situation we can still find some grace to cling to. The fact that those women love their kids has nothing to do with the abuse. And the abuse doesn't touch that love.
Again, you seem intent on applying "God's will" to the rape. No one except you is doing that.
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| | | 673 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 23, 2012, 22:43
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W/O the rape, there is no interjection of sperm. W/O pulling the trigger, there is no interjection of the bullet.
And no, I am not the only one who finds his statements highly distasteful. The group where I saw the link, much as I see many links here, is of the same opinion as I on this one,
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| | | 674 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Oct 23, 2012, 22:47
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Ah, so you found other people willing to twist his words and apply them to the rape. Nice. I guess Boldwin is right because he has a whole conservative media believing his lies as well?
Look, you seem intent on applying his point about God's will to the rape, despite it not being intended to do so. You seem rather interested in being insulted and ranting self-righteously. Go at it. We should have a Boldwin/sarge channel since you share the same techniques.
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| | | 675 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Oct 23, 2012, 22:52
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lol good gawd PD. I find the fact that this discourse is occurring, difficult to believe. I am most certainly NOT saying, that one is claiming the rape to be Gods Will. I am saying the pregnancy is NOT Gods Will. Dont confuse the negative, as meaning a reassignment. NOTHING about or resulting from the rape is Gods Will. Not in my minds eye, nor in the eyes of most people I know.
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| | | 676 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Oct 24, 2012, 00:04
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Indiana Planned Parenthood Ruling: Federal Appeals Court Says State Can't Cut Funding Over Abortions
The state of Indiana cannot withhold Medicaid funding from the local Planned Parenthood affiliate because some of its clinics offer abortions, a federal appeals court ruled Tuesday.
The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a June 2011 injunction from a lower-court judge blocking a law that would have prevented Planned Parenthood of Indiana from participating in the state's Medicaid program.
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| | | 684 | Boldwin
ID: 2397243 Wed, Oct 24, 2012, 04:09
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I haven't been chiming in these rape comment debates much but there's this...because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all. 12For man also does not know his time. Just like fishes that are being taken in an evil net, and like birds that are being taken in a trap, so the sons of men themselves are being ensnared at a calamitous time, when it falls upon them suddenly. - Ecclesiastes 9 Religious people make a mistake reaching too far to find God's hand in things. Everything isn't predestined. Everything isn't God's handiwork. This system is a failure that God allows, Satan's brief period of freedom, not something God is designing in each particular. So no, I don't think a rape is anything other than an unfortunate accident, someone in the wrong place at the wrong time.
That said, every human life is sacred.
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| | | 685 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Wed, Oct 24, 2012, 11:21
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Start around minute 46 and you can hear the actual quote.
C-SPAN
My first thought on reading various headlines, was WTF? After hearing the quote in context, I disagree, but the news reports (and Sarge) are twisting the words to make them sound much worse. This is an example of the liberal media bias that you hear about. And yes, there is a conservative media bias on Fox.
Mourdock said he supported abortion in the case to save the life of the mother.
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| | | 686 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Wed, Oct 24, 2012, 11:58
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Agree w/Frick and PD.
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| | | 688 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 20:47
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Since the removal and the endorsement, were on the same day, yeah...I'd say they were related.
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| | | 690 | Boldwin
ID: 33933290 Mon, Oct 29, 2012, 01:39
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the question of why we seem to be alone in our neck of the universe.
Intra-galactic censorship.
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| | | 691 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Nov 04, 2012, 19:51
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Recently posted in poli discussion. This first copy/paste, is truly an intelligent piece of writing. I urge you to read it. then beneath it, I am posting the Republican response it immediately drew:
Just an aside comment for funs sake. For all of that care to remember Sarah Palin and her husband, a member of the Alaska Independence Party, a state that has and will vote Republican, is a state of contradiction. I have lived there (Adak and Homer Alaska) and know her charms and admire her people. But, I cannot understand for the life of me why the people there are so staunchly anti-Democrat and anti-federal. Their is not one state in the nation that receives more federal aid. Bought from Russia with federal money, the North Slope oil reserves were developed with federal money (and was, as it turns out a rather un-lucrative deal), the Alaskan pipeline (both my dad and uncle helped work on) payed for with federal money, it's transport system was largely built by the U.S. military, it's ports, roads, bridges, towns, etc., mostly funded to this day by federal dollars. Alaska also gives out an annual stipend to it's state citizens and has some of the lowest state taxes in the country thanks to profit sharing from the exploitation of her vast resources - a rather socialist idea don't you think. Yet, Alaskans tend to disdain the federal government and almost unanimously vote Republican. Why, when the obvious benefit of government aid and assistance is right in their faces? Because a persons ideal image, as it applies to independence, and the actuality (a persons need for communal help) have very little in common and some ideals are a creation of environmental upbringing. People want to believe that what they achieve and have is all on their own with no help from "the others" and that their hard work is enough; the problem is it really isn't. Why do you think people over time have come together and formed societies? The simple answer is societies are groups that work together to be mutually beneficial. Without that what are we? Savages? For those of you that think you do it alone or think this is all some sort of recent "socialist" creation I ask were you would be without the governed "redistribution" of individual goods for infrastructure, education, safety from real threats, etc.? Maybe medieval Europe or some other worldly contemporary, but it wouldn't be America.
To which a republican immediately responded:
**** ; You sure are a good little communist , why don't you move to russia it's not very far.
How sad, that the GOP disdains critical thinking skills.
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| | | 692 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 09:33
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So don't respond. Much the rest of the internet, the more outlandish and inflammatory a response the more responses it generates. Interesting and informative discussion gets drowned out by a few people yelling at each other.
There are a number of close races across the country and it will be interesting to see how they turn out.
On a somewhat related note, I got the following in the mail recently. I apologize for not having the correct rotation and making everyone stare at their monitor with their head cocked to the side.

I don't know the person who sent it to me, actually I don't think I know anyone in South Carolina, where it originated from. It had my full name, which I very rarely use. I'm curious how many of these were sent out.
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| | | 693 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 10:10
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Looks like Republican neophyte Mia Love will unseat longtime bluedog Dem Jim Matheson in my newly created 4th congressional district here in Utah. Love, who would be the first black Republican woman congressman, is riding Romney's coattails big time. That would leave Utah without any Democratic representative in Washington.
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| | | 695 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 01:47
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Todd Akin, Murdock, Allen West, Joe Walsh ... all OUT!
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| | | 696 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 08:55
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To be fair, Mourdock was never in. He unseated a Luger in primary.
But, overall the Tea Party was sent a pretty strong message that they are no longer welcome with their anti-Obama, no solution message. Well, except in my district, were a Tea Partier barely won, after gerrymandering made the district seem like a R lock.
Actually, the gerrymandering was one of the reasons that Joe Donnelly ran for Senate, as it was his district previously.
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| | | 697 | Tree
ID: 481017710 Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 11:17
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some good takeaways from electoral-vote.com
Here are some of our takeways, in no particular order.
1. It's not just the economy, stupid. It's the whole package 2. Abandoning large constitutencies, like women, Latinos, and young voters is not a winning formula 3. The partisan identification in 2008 was not a freak accident. There are more Democrats than Republicans 4. The candidate matters: on paper Rick Perry and Mitt Romney were great, but the real men weren't Nominating a sneering plutocrat who likes firing people and writes off half the country is not a wise move 5. If you can't release your tax returns because they are full of poison, don't run for President There aren't enough billionaires to buy the election 6. Don't talk about gay marriage unless you are supporting it 7. And above all, don't talk about rape except maybe if you are proposing to castrate rapists
also:
Demographically, the Republican Party's base is angry, old white men. That is no formula for future victories. Democrats did well with women, Latinos, and young people. Unless the Republicans stop trying to repeal both Roe v. Wade and Griswold v. Connecticut, they are not going to improve their standing with women. If Obama makes a big effort at passing immigration reform and either gets it or has it go down on a party-line vote in the House, the Republicans can write off Latinos for a generation. As to young people, political identities are set early. Twenty somethings who have now voted for the Democrats twice aren't going to be easy to peal away unless the Republicans can pull an elephant out of the hat.
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| | | 698 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 12:04
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I only this election came across that site, but as I have followed it and the recent course of events, I have come to REALLY like it quite a lot. The synopsis, strikes me as dead on target.
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| | | 699 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 12:22
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Ron Paul elected Supreme Leader of "New Texas" (ONION)
According to pollsters, Gary Johnson's campaign was effectively over following a debate in which, after Johnson called for the creation of a planetary Federal Reserve system with broad authority, hundreds of audience members swarmed over him and beat him with tiny little sticks.
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| | | 701 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 17:21
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| | | 702 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 17:22
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Just to point out that much of the GOP's problems are self-inflicted rather than thrust upon them by outside agencies.
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| | | 703 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 18:59
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I read that the 15 or so House GOP members who were defeated yesterday all signed Grover Nordquist's anti-tax pledge. Coincidence?
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| | | 704 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 19:37
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*smdh*
The Tea Party Patriots, one of the most prominent organizations within the fiscally conservative tea party movement, says Mitt Romney lost the election because he was a "weak moderate" candidate that was "hand-picked" by the establishment GOP.
No, he lost, because for months he pandered to the FAR right (ie you clowns), and that put off the Latinos, the Gays, the college educated, the women, the young. Gawd, the truth is right in front of you, and you REFUSE to see it. YOUR IDEOLOGY BLOWS. Thats it TP, in a nutshell, thats the problem you have.
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| | | 705 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 20:13
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I'm just continually baffled by the "if the right winger would move farther right away from where the voters are he'd win" logic. I guess it's not even fair to the word logic to call it that though.
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| | | 707 | Boldwin
ID: 12107713 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 04:53
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Fact is that there are two situations where Americans sit down for a golden goose dinner.
1) When they are so desperate they don't care about tomorrow.
2) When times are so good they think they can sacrifice a few golden geese and get away with it.
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| | | 709 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 11:22
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Take it easy, DW. That might or might not be true, but I strongly suspect that many conservatives are waking up this week to the fact that their media has lied to them, consistently, over the course of years now, and that fact have been withheld from them in order to make them feel a certain way.
One of those feelings is rage, which the conservative media direct at Democrats and others for political reasons.
I was thinking along those lines on Tuesday, and I happened to tune into Rachel Maddow (which I rarely do, but was flipping around for more political porn). When I watched it live I was about 8 minutes into this 16 minute video, but she was absolutely spot on for those 8 minutes:
Maddow
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| | | 710 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:26
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Exceptional.
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| | | 711 | Tree
ID: 101027811 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:59
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i can't watch now because i'm at work, but i was doing the same thing the other night, and it's probably the same video i caught.
her gloating is a bit annoying, but msnbc is the antithesis of fox, so why not, i suppose. (funny how the left can often see their own biases, but the right rarely sees theirs).
i do think two of the bigger takeaways this election season were the GOP's underestimation of both women and hispanics. both were pivotal for a variety of reasons, and considering the large number of shocking comments and beliefs on rape, combined with a fairly anti-hispanic bias (whether real or perceived by hispanics), the GOP is going to be in a lot of trouble for a long time if they don't right those ships.
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| | | 712 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 14:41
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This is for Tree -- I'm placing a small wager that this will result in a squirt-milk-out-the-nose laugh.
Others may also get it.
link
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| | | 713 | Great One
ID: 2431114 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 14:51
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Damn, he should cash in the briefcase! Ziggler for President!
The Maddow thing was excellent.
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| | | 714 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 15:05
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Why the Republicans Lost
What is truly too bad, is that too many who NEED to see this, will either never see it or ignore it, given the opportunity TO read it, Its sad, because the piece is not at all an assault, but truly is an accurate evaluation.
Then Michele pops on the screen and says, "Thats why I've been an independent voice working for you..."
Wow. ...I'm just saying. When even Michele Bachmann can't run as a proud Republican, your brand identification has reached "pink slime" territory.
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| | | 716 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 16:30
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NSFW STRONG LANGUAGE
Youtube vid of a woman who is shall we say, a wee bit irate?
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| | | 717 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 19:46
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From the alleged party of personal responsibility on a national electionin which the American people chose the oppositions ideas and messaging over their own:
Robert Stacey McCain at American Spectator The list of fools who have brought this disaster upon us certainly also will include New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, the gelatinous clown who (a) hogged up a prime time spot at the Republican convention to sing his own praises; (b) embraced Obama as the hero of Hurricane Sandy; and (c) then refused to appear at campaign events in support of Romney's presidential campaign. Good luck with the remainder of your political future, governor. It is unlikely Republicans shall soon forget your perfidious betrayal The National Review, citing an unnamed Romney advisor: Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey, the adviser adds, is persona non grata in Romneys inner circle. He went out of his way to embrace the president during the final week of the campaign, the adviser says. It wasnt necessary and it hurt us. Todd Akin, Richard Mourdock, and Chris Christie undermined the Republican message. Laura Ingram: Speaking of embarrassing himself, Chris Christie was out there and he was very excited, not because hes voting for Romney, Ingraham said. Hes excited because he got a phone call: not just from the president of these United States, but he got a phone call from Bruce Springsteen.
You know what, Ive just got to say this: He has a lot more in common with Obama than we thought, she said. Its all about Chris Christie. My Jersey Shore, my roller coasters underwater, my hero Bruce Springsteen, I have to pinch myself to go on Air Force One as the son of an Italian immigrant, or whatever he said.
Me, me, me, me, me. And I know hes done a lot of good things for a lot of good people, and there is something about me that does like Chris Christie at times. But I find his behavior in all of this to be really just bizarre at this point.
Let me tell you something , Chris Christie it would not surprise me if Chris Christie at some point became a Democrat, Ingraham said. Doesnt surprise me one bit. It really doesnt, in the end. Washington Times Editor Brett Decker The biggest bull in the herd is New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie. The moderate party establishment naturally gravitates toward this type of Republican in Name Only (RINO) because of his liberal positions on social issues. Mr. Christie took on the Garden States teacher unions, but it otherwise takes a lot of hunting to find other issues on which the governor supports the conservative line. He has a liberal record on guns, abortion, homosexual marriage and global warming, for example.
Mr. Christie is so unorthodox for his party that on the day after the election, Republicans were speculating whether he might be appointed to President Obama's Cabinet in the upcoming second term. The governors conduct in the important week before Election Day had insiders scratching their heads wondering if he was purposely trying to help the presidents re-election effort or whether Mr. Christie is simply politically tone-deaf. As the Obama administration was taking incoming fire for its mismanagement of emergency-relief efforts in response to Hurricane Sandy, Mr. Christie handed Mr. Obama a big gift in the form of photo-ops, public hugs and gratuitously complimentary statements about the job done by the opposing partys standard-bearer.
Mary Matalin at National Review: Unfortunately and unfortuitously, forces of nature bookended the general election: Our convention was compromised by one weather disaster and our momentum stalled by another. Two human hurricanes also radically altered the political atmosphere: Bill Clintons unique windbaggery constituted a campaign updraft, while Chris Christies deplorable and gratuitous gas-baggery infused the campaign with a toxic political pollution. Dick Morris: But the more proximate cause of my error was that I did not take full account of the impact of hurricane Sandy and of Governor Chris Christies bipartisan march through New Jersey arm in arm with President Obama. Not to mention Christes fawning promotion of Obamas presidential leadership. It made all the difference. Victor Davis Hanson: Similarly, had the storm not arisen, or had Christie just been civil rather than going gaga over Obama/Springsteen, Romneys momentum would not have been lost the last week I think this fairly well proves what I and others have been saying all along; for the hardline tea party right, conservatism is not measured in adherence to one ideology or another, but to how loudly and effectively a pol can demonize the opposition.
How many of the people listed above genuinely regarded Christie as a future presidential candidate, regardless of policy record that is not-so-particularly-conservative, as the WT editor seems to have suddenly noticed this week? How many were on board with the clamor from earlier this year for him to enter the race?
No, the governor publicly praising the president for a crucial job well done in his state is not the reason Obama won in an electoral landslide.
But that enough Americans to deliver 332 electoral votes might be turned off by politics based in seething hatred could certainly have had something to do with it.
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| | | 718 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 19:48
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I would have thought that "politically tone deaf in a time of crisis" was a good thing. Hunh.
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| | | 719 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 19:54
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Culling their own. It is how they deal with stress. Apparently Christie isn't dick enough for the GOP chattering class.
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| | | 720 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 20:05
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They, the GOP powers that be, are just going to REFUSE to "see the light" on their policies. How arrogant, does one have to be, in the face of the defeat they just took? There is only ONE reason, they held the House...they took in, the same year as a Census, and then redrew the boundaries. Take away that massive gerrymandering, and you have the GOP as a decisive minority in DC. And why? Because their message is one of hate, disdain, intolerance and superiority. All, while claiming to be "Christian". The hypocrisy, and the arrogance, is truly astounding.
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| | | 721 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 20:10
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well, they havent learned not to insult the electorate:
Ron Johnson Blames Obama's Victory On Ignorant Electorate
Johnson said he spoke with Baldwin on Wednesday, and he hopes he they can work together -- just as soon as he explains "facts" about the federal budget to her.
"Hopefully I can sit down and lay out for her my best understanding of the federal budget because they're simply the facts," he said. "Hopefully she'll agree with what the facts are and work toward common sense solutions."
Senator? If you are talking about laying out "your UNDERSTANDING...", then that by definition is NOT the facts. That, is YOUR opinion.
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| | | 722 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 20:14
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Karl Rove: Obama Won 'By Suppressing The Vote'
lmao...wonder which excuse, they will rally behind? (1) Chris Christie (2) ignorant electorate (3) Democratic voter suppression ???????????
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| | | 723 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 20:31
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Apparently Christie isn't dick enough for the GOP chattering class.
Exactly, and after years of being King Dick! Until a genuine show of exactly the kind of wholly apropriate bipartisanship the American people have been begging for tarnished one of the right's most cherished cults of personality.
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| | | 724 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 00:49
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from my FB today:
Lisa XXXXX: Physical cliff coming ...stock market falling ... Wait for it ..
my response: Jim Dirks @Lisa..physical cliff? See, this is what we Libs are talking about, when we say you rightwingers are just regurgitating what you heard, and dont know WTF you are saying. You meant FISCAL cliff, not physical cliff. The first, is a financial situation which is dire. The 2nd, is..well, a cliff.
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| | | 725 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 01:06
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The fiscal cliff is coming, of course, and it is coming because the GOP negotiated for it as part of the budget negotiations (which failed, in a large part, because they wouldn't accept any tax increases). It was intended to be a way for them to make the Administration capitulate.
In reality, it is another form of "The President wouldn't dare shut down the government" which hasn't worked very well for them in the past.
The stock market is clearly reacting, as it has in the past, to the fact that the GOP isn't really interested in fixing the fiscal problems faced by the federal government.
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| | | 726 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 01:21
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Totally agree PD. The GOP created the cliff, and like last time, will gleefully toss the country over, in order to point at the President and say :He wouldnt work with us", which means, He wouldnt cave in and give us EVERYTHING we wanted, despite our refusal to give him ANYTHING he wanted".
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| | | 727 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 02:05
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Two bad days for the stock market, but two great days for American cities and infrastructure, as muni bond funds gladly accept much of the equities sell off.
Diversified portfolios will easily survive a couple days of equity market profit taking, and basic fear-mongering promoted by the 1 percenters and their Boldwin enablers.
I find it especially ironic that Boldwin espouses his doom and gloom while proclaiming, I'm on vacation.
When the going gets tough, the tough go on vacation.
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| | | 728 | Boldwin
ID: 42105820 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 07:04
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I'm trying to cut back here. No mai tai's and hula skirts involved.
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| | | 731 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 15:28
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David Petraeus resigns, citing an extramarital affair
David Petraeus, the national-security golden-boy who rose from commander of CENTCOM to head of the CIA (and was often mentioned as a potential future GOP presidential candidate), has reportedly resigned, citing an extramarital affair.
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| | | 732 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 15:40
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Where did he find the time?
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| | | 734 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 16:50
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indeed it is.
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| | | 735 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 17:48
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trying out for job on Fox and Friends
A reporter for a Fox affiliate in Cincinnati, Ohio called lesbian MSNBC anchor Rachel Maddow "such an angry young man" on her Facebook page last month.
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| | | 736 | Boldwin
ID: 48102099 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 19:03
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Did he mind?
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| | | 738 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 21:06
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Did he mind?
probably a lot less than your "God" minds your hate-filled attitude.
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| | | 739 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 22:14
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An open letter to Republicans
Pretty sure of 3 here abouts, who will pretty much scoff at the content. Too bad, because its on the mark.
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| | | 740 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 22:45
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Connor Freidersdorf and Matt Taibbi point to El Rushbo as the face of the GOP's demographics problem.
Of course it's not just Limbaugh. Not even close.
From Rep. Jenkins' 2009 clamoring for a "great white hope" to Roy Blunt's comparison of Democrats in Washington to "monkeys on a golf course" to George Allen calling a man in his audiance "macaca" to campaign mailings depicting a watermelon patch growing on the White House lawn to the various rape gaffes of the past few months to Pat Buchanan's declaration that "white America is a dying tribe" to Mitt Romney's terrible Spanish and 47% comment, there is a very serious, in fact major problem with the GOP's inability to weed out people who apparently very casually talk down to people who aren't white men.
In a business where the most crucial prerequisite to landing (and often keeping) a job is messaging, you'd think the party could work out a way to nominate pols who aren't so glaringly tone deaf when it comes to the growing minority constituancies that are increasingly looking like they are about to marginalize the GOP.
I've been asking for years why they keep saying these things. No one has a good answer. Well somebody better figure it out for them soon.
Hopefully they'll look someplace other than toward Rush. I guarantee it won't be him.
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| | | 741 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Nov 09, 2012, 23:10
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The conservative entertainment complex, of which Limbaugh is the undisputed leader, has forever tarnished the term conservative, and made it unrecognizable.
Conservative politicians aren't the leaders of the Republican party, these entertainers are, and they have no invested interest beyond ratings.
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| | | 743 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 00:55
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Kevin Drum addresses it tooI know they don't want to hear this, and I know that a lot of Republicans are deeply invested in a belief that liberals, not conservatives, are the real racial scaremongers. And I also know that it's almost impossible to talk about this because even the slightest suggestion of racial hostility is instantly toxic.
But as Bernie Goldberg admitted earlier this year, "There is a strain of bigotry and that's the word I want to use running through conservative America....That has to leave the conservative movement....I am sick of it." He's right. Lightening up on immigration won't be enough. Like it or not, conservatives are going to need a much more thorough housecleaning if they want to survive in an increasingly diverse future. No more gratuitous ethnic mockery. No more pretense that reverse racism is the real racism. No more suggestions that minorities just want a handout. No more screeching about the incipient threat of Sharia law. No more saturation coverage of the pathetic New Black Panthers. No more complaining that blacks get to use the N word but whites don't. No more summers of hate on Fox News. No more tolerance for Dinesh D'Souza and his "roots of Obama's rage" schtick; or for Glenn Beck saying Obama has a "deep-seated hatred of white people"; or for Rush Limbaugh claiming that "Obama's entire economic program is reparations." No more jeering at the mere concept of "diversity." And no more too-clever-by-half attempts to say all this stuff without really saying it, and then pretending to be shocked when you're called on it. Pretending might make you feel virtuous, but it doesn't fool anyone and it won't win you any new supporters.
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| | | 744 | Boldwin
ID: 48102099 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 01:06
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Yeah, we're going to get our strategy from 'Mother Jones' now.
But he is right about one thing. If Democrats get to import a whole nuther country that doesn't like the way we do things and intends to vote against us, and we don't get any say in this immigration policy somehow...
...republicans don't have a solution for that.
America is lost. America haters win. Something inhospitable [to Americans] and foreign will arise to replace it.
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| | | 745 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 01:11
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Is that what you think happened--a "whole nuther country" did this to you?
Is your view of America so narrow that you simply can't fathom it?
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| | | 746 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 01:35
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There's that principle of personal responsibility hard at work again.
Republicans lose elections because liberal immigration policy imports something inhospitable and foreign to replace your America.
And there's no cause for party introspection to consider the possibility that the failure to court reliably religious and socially conservative minority groups could possibly be their own fault.
The rest of your life is going to be miserable.
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| | | 747 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 01:37
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You can tell a lot about a person with how he handles adversity or setbacks.
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| | | 748 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 01:41
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In this case PD, it isnt just "a" person. It appears to be, LARGE chunks of the GOP, particularly among those in leadership positions. Denial and blame, seem to be their current strategy. So in this case, B is keeping good company, if you consider the likes of Karl Rove, Sen Johnson, AC, Glenn Beck, Mary Matlin et al, to be "good company".
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| | | 749 | Boldwin
ID: 48102099 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 02:08
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It's the same process as what forced muslims into europe against the wishes of it's people.
And for the same purposes. Globalization and destruction of national identity and sovereignty. I don't disparage the immigrants themselves. They are showing initiative. More power to them. Good for them for showing the guts it would take to pull up stakes. They by and large are oblivious to the globalist elite plans.
Not the conscious reconquista La Raza types tho. Those are real enemies.
In a more perfect world with smarter people you wouldn't move from one failed country to one wildly successful country without being very very gung-ho about imitating what made the successful country successful.
But no. That doesn't happen near enuff.
The people I love the most are the Cubans and the Polish and the people who miraculously managed to emigrate from communist lands. Those guys deeply understand just how bad big government and central planning are. Let's import more Cubans and invite all of Poland.
Dem calls for the republican party to get in a race with them to pander to the latinos is patently cynical. There is no way you can out pander a democrat to a minority. "republicans offered you 200% of GDP? Here, us democrats will borrow twice whatever they offer you. We're going to crash America anyway. Why would we care about debt anyway?"
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| | | 750 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 02:46
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Dem calls for the republican party to get in a race with them to pander
Let's be clear here: This particular Democrat would be quite happy if you wanted to continue to marginalize yourself by cutting off natural constituents like Hispanics, Jews, or blacks. But since you see no difference between "pander" and "being inclusive" it looks like I'll continue to happily watch you send your party into the sunset.
You want to double down on what has led to this for your part, go right ahead.
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| | | 751 | Boldwin
ID: 48102099 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 03:06
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They need to be educated from the cradle to have classic American values. How is that gonna happen? It doesn't even happen with American children for the last 50 years.
They are beyond the reach of republicans if they didn't already have American values before they got here.
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| | | 752 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 03:49
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Wow, what a bigoted series of statements. What, exactly, are these "American" values that, apparently, are only held by Republicans?
You know what--nevermind. Please continue with what you are doing or saying. Your phrase "beyond the reach" pretty much covers it.
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| | | 753 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 08:55
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i really wish you would write a blog Baldwin. it's getting old watching the same people here shoot fish in a barrel when you post - i'd love if a wider audience do the same.
it's particularly impressive to see how lost and delusional you are. if the majority of the GOP shares your attitudes, not only will you not see a right-leaning president in your lifetime, you're likely to see even bigger changes in congress.
the demographics in this country are changing and doing so rapidly. to call accepting Latinos into the fold and being concerned about the issues that affect them "pandering" is to not have a clue at all about these changes that are happening in this country.
saying "i love the Cubans and the Polish" and to discuss their immigration here is to also be unclear on the concept.
the Cubans didn't arrive here by some miracle - they risked their lives to make it across 90 miles of ocean, taking advantage of a policy that favors them, but is biased against other immigrants.
and Polish people escaping communist regimes??? Poland hasn't been communist for 25 years. good lord, maybe that explains your problem - you're still stuck in the past.
the shellacking your side took in this election - in the presidential race, in congressional races, in ballot referendums - was historic. and you believe that keeping the same beliefs and methods that let to that butt-whuppin' will turn things around?
that's sad. Ronald Reagan is rolling over in his grave because of the uncompromising politics of his party - he simply can't believe you'd rather lose badly, then work together to at least achieve some of what you want.
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| | | 754 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 17:30
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Allen West wants a recount
West's campaign issued a long statement Wednesday on its Facebook page saying the St. Lucie County Supervisor of Elections "clearly ignored proper rules and procedures, and the scene at the Supervisors office last night could only be described as complete chaos."
Yes, clearly. Since one of the most vile of politicians, failed to carry the day, it CLEARLY means that shennanigans were a foot. West, is just another in a long line of GOP Tea Partiers, who is unable to grasp the concept that their little minority, doesnt run the show.
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| | | 755 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Sat, Nov 10, 2012, 21:52
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California sets the trends...
"Republican leaders should look at California and shudder," says Steve Schmidt, who managed John McCain's 2008 campaign and anchored former Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's re-election team in 2006. "The two-party system has collapsed."
Republican voter registration has dipped so low less than 30 percent that the party's future state candidates will be hobbled from the start.
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| | | 756 | Boldwin
ID: 2710111023 Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 00:44
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| | | 757 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 00:46
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*sigh* deny the truth Boldwin...here, let me help you and I will explain in very short words, why the GOP lost:
1) They insulted the electorate 2) They want to tale insurance away from people 3) Taking that insurance, will lead to 20,000 Americans/yr dying needlessly 4) The would have raised taxes on the middle class OR raised the deficit in HUGE ways 5) They would probably have started ANOTHER war
There, any questions?
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| | | 758 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 02:27
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*sigh* deny the truth Boldwin
there are times when i think it's denial, and then there are other times when i wonder if some of those on the right just simply aren't that bright.
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| | | 759 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 07:29
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This seems relevant to the discussion.
The Economist
The Republicans' real problem Nov 8th 2012, 17:53 by Lexington
MY PRINT column this week argues that the Republican Party's big problem is not that it just lost the race for the White House. The real problem for conservatives is that they did not lose the 2012 election cycle badly enough. Political parties sliding into a long-term, structural crisis typically only start to climb after a brutal defeat orusuallydefeats.
My column considers all manner of comforting arguments that explain why the Republicans did not have such a bad night on November 6th, or might find it easier than expected to avoid the demographic trap made visible by Mr Obama's win.
Such arguments are not wholly wrong, but miss two large problems facing Republicans. First, after months of reporting from campaign rallies and congressional campaigns in nearly a dozen states, I suggest that the average Republican activist tends to be angrier and more pessimistic than the average American, and unhappy about how the country is changing.
What is more, too many members of the Republican base are keen on theories that explain away inconvenient or dismaying facts, often crafted by conservative media outlets. Mr Romney's slogan was "Believe in America". Too many on his side seemed to want to believe in a very specific version of America, and disbelieve discordant facts and arguments.
Both these problems matter. For one thing, it is hard for a party to win national elections in a country that it palpably seems to dislike. For another, it is hard for a party to navigate a changing world if some core supporters insist that mainstream maps are wrong, because that world is actually flat.
One of the happy shocks of this week involved an early-morning hop from Iowa to Ohio on election day, so that I could interview voters emerging from polling stations in both red and blue neighbourhoods. Members of the public who said that they had voted for President Barack Obama and Mitt Romney had this in common: compared to the active partisans who go to campaign rallies, they were calm and considered in their assessment of the electionand strikingly bipartisan. Very few claimed a monopoly of wisdom for their candidate, or alleged a monopoly of wickedness on the other side. If anything summed up this unscientific sample it was disappointment with both candidates, and a strong desire to see politicians in Washington work pragmatically on getting stuff done.
A final note. The column is not an assessment of the policy platforms of the two candidates, it is a specific argument about internal dynamics within the conservative movement, as observed at election rallies, in Republican Party county headquarters and field offices, at coffee mornings or drinks in supporters' homes and businesses and in private conversations with congressmen and officials on the campaign trail.
Democratic partisans have their foibles. They can be tribal, and prone to conspiracy theories about the rich and powerful, and too trusting in the power of governments to fix things. But, on average, Republican partisans come across as dismayingly pessimistic. They pay lip service to the idea that they need to change their policies to take account of such forces as demographic shifts. But when pressed they are not willing to contemplate hard or painful choices.
The Republican Party has not hit rock bottom yet. Perhaps they should have chosen a full-throated social conservative with strong grassroots appeal as their presidential candidate, and watched him lose more than 40 states, as such a candidate surely would have.
But for the moment, the grassroots of the Republican Party are reminiscent of the British Labour Party in the 1980s, as that party waged an internal war between the hard left and the first proto-Blairite reformers. One of the architects of the Blairite programme, Peter Mandelson, tells a story about an adversary from those days, a London local government leader and Trotskyite, whose battle cry was: "No compromise with the electorate". It is a slogan that might appeal to some on the American right.
America needs an effective opposition party, that is capable of and interested in making a case that reaches across the 50-50 divide. There is no reason why the Republican Party cannot fulfill that role soon. Plenty of thoughtful people in the party know they are drifting away from mainstream America. Alas, it may take a more stinging defeat to trigger that reckoning with reality.
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| | | 760 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 11:06
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it is hard for a party to win national elections in a country that it palpably seems to dislike
Bingo.
Lamestream media; Drive-by media; Lapdog media; CNN - Communist News Network
The level of cynicism originates with the conservative media complex, and spills over into the basic message of many Republican Party leaders. Whining as an art form. And after a devastating national defeat last week, these cynics would have us believe that the problem is that they didn't whine loud enough.
Just as it's a mistake to think Democrats are only people who are looking for government to give them free stuff, it's also a mistake to think Republicans are only old, white men. Sure, when Fox News uses Karl Rove as an election night analyst, the same Karl Rove whose SuperPac is responsible for a big part of the billion dollars spent on Romney's presidential run, it's easy to make that determination, just as CNN using Van Jones as an analyst lends creedence to the free stuff misnomer.
Fact is, lots of old, white men voted for Obama, and lots of women voted for Romney. Cynicism and negativity aren't gender specific. But it's a tough task to try and convince most Americans how horrible their lives are, when most Americans are in a lot better shape than they were when Obama first took office. It's a tough task convincing America you're going to represent the entire populace when you've been caught on tape dismissing 47% of them in front of a bunch of rich, old white men.
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| | | 761 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 18:37
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thie letter, needs WIDE distribution
not gonna do a copy/paste of a snippet, because the only relevant one, would not reflect the overall tone of the letter. Just, read it.
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| | | 762 | Boldwin
ID: 5710541118 Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:02
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Does Bill Ayers proud.
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| | | 763 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:27
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Nice post Sarge, I'm guessing it sums up most of the Republican leaning members of this board. I'm sorry, I forgot, RINO leaning members of the board.
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| | | 764 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:30
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Take your party back Frick. Take it away from the people like B who seem to be in charge of it at the moment. Our nation needs the competing ideals, in order to grow.
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| | | 765 | Boldwin
ID: 5710541118 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 00:59
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If they can just find a few wobblies to partially buy in they can look at their totalitarian visages in the mirror.
There is a reason socialist programs have to be mandatory. Virtually no one would volunteer for them.
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| | | 766 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 01:13
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That's because this country's Christians aren't very.
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| | | 767 | Boldwin
ID: 5710541118 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 01:26
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Libs donate less than conservatives. Out of all of the lefts discombobulated theoretical constructs, the ludicrous assertion that conservatives simply do not care about societys downtrodden is particularly frustrating, as it vehemently denies both reality and logic. On the surface, the notion that liberals are the worlds most charitable individuals could easily be accepted. After all, many on the left talk quite a bit about helping the poor and providing social safety nets. However, the left rarely explores the negative consequences of its policies. Furthermore, liberals fail to analyze and comprehend their own deficient charitable giving patterns.
One of the most pervasive political visions of our time is the vision of liberals as compassionate and conservatives as less caring. While myths surrounding leftist giving and volunteerism continue to be perpetuated, American researchers have taken a pretty clear and concise look at this issue and the case is closed: Conservatives out-give and out-volunteer the opposition.
research has shown that conservatives donate about 30 percent more than do liberals. Interestingly, on average, conservatives earn less than liberals.
in 2004, George W. Bush carried 24 out of 25 of the states in which charitable giving exceeded the national average.
Nicholas Kristof (a self-described liberal) of The New York Times wrote on this same subject back in 2008. Unlike others on the left who sought to dismiss Brooks data, Kristof wrote, We liberals are personally stingy. Kristof went on to cover other research that backs up Brooks findings. They talk the talk, but lordy don't they help themselves. [Hey, hasn't it been a week since we went out on strike? - Public sector union]
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| | | 768 | Boldwin
ID: 5710541118 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 01:28
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Source
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| | | 769 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 01:44
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Actually, that's not really true (though you would have never seen this in "your" media.).
From the abstract:
Charitable contributions are the lifeblood of many nonprofit organizations; however, little attention has been paid to how political attitudes affect donations. In this paper, we first show that conservatives and liberals are equally generous in their donation habits. This pattern holds at both the individual and state level, and contradicts the conventional wisdom that partisans differ in their generosity. Second, we show that while levels of giving are roughly equivalent, liberals are much more likely to donate to secular organizations, and conservatives are more likely to donate to religious causes, especially their own congregation
There is some question as to whether donating to a church actually makes as much of a difference compared to a secular group (haven't seen much data on this one way or the other, frankly). Donating money to one's church is certainly charity, but is is as helpful to those in need as giving to the Salvation Army, the Red Cross, or other secular charities? Nevertheless, the talking point that gets floated around isn't actually true.
This is, of course, to say nothing if the safety net gets dismantled like the "conservatives" are looking to do.
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| | | 770 | Boldwin
ID: 5710541118 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 01:59
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Yeah, it's only charity if it's a socialist program.
But if it is a socialist program it doesn't matter if it doesn't work or actually makes the problem worse, it's still charity.
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| | | 771 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 09:46
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Yeah, it's only charity if it's a socialist program.
the salvation army and the red cross are socialist programs? i'll keep that in mind. thanks for that breath of fresh air.
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| | | 772 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 10:15
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It's Conservative Sesame Street, where the Word of the Day is "Socialist."
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| | | 773 | Tree
ID: 571061211 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 12:06
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considering the Salvation Army is a Christian organization (sorry PV, while their outreach is non-secular, they do subscribe to Christian tenets.), i'm guessing that the way Baldwin has tossed out Christianity these days, he's calling the entire religion Socialist.
odd.
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| | | 774 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 12:28
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There Is A Brutal Civil War In The GOP, And It Looks Like Karl Rove Will Be The First Casualty
Grassroots Republican operatives and Movement conservatives are quickly turning against the GOP Establishment in the wake of the party's expensive defeat this election cycle. Republicans we spoke to this week voiced a near-universal disgust with the national Republican Party leaders and Washington political class, who are seen as having put their personal financial interest above winning the election.
Since I see the current political divisiveness,as having originated with Karl Rove, I cant say that this whole idea is displeasing at all.
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| | | 775 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 12:40
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Boehner and company, ignoring the election results
Seemingly ignoring that over than 3 million more Americans voted for President Obama than Mitt Romney on Tuesday, Congressional Republicans are moving quickly to embrace Speaker John Boehners (R-OH) call to adopt a tax compromise that is virtually identical to the tax proposal that Romney made the centerpiece of his failed campaign.
The running theme this week is what Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY) called the Rumpelstiltskin fairy tale that the country can increase revenues simply by lowering tax rates:
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| | | 776 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 12:43
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Frum with his own bit of truth
President Barack Obama was not re-elected by people who want to "take." The president was re-elected by people who want to work -- and who were convinced, rightly or wrongly, that the president's policies were more likely to create work than were the policies advocated by my party.
The United States did not vote for socialism. It could not do so, because neither party offers socialism. Both parties champion a free enterprise economy cushioned by a certain amount of social insurance. The Democrats (mostly) want more social insurance, the Republicans want less. National politics is a contest to move the line of scrimmage, in a game where there's no such thing as a forward pass, only a straight charge ahead at the defensive line. To gain three yards is a big play.
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| | | 777 | Boldwin
ID: 361012125 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 12:52
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If he's a republican then Pat Cadell's a democrat.
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| | | 778 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 13:13
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You cant address the message, and he disagrees with you, AND he appears to be somewhat intelligent, ergo he can not be Republican eh B?
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| | | 779 | Boldwin
ID: 361012125 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 15:56
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I've known Frum wasn't a republican for a decade. The twitterverse erupts in mirth whenever he pretends to be 'our' advisor.
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| | | 780 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 15:59
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B? YOU, dont know what is/isnt a Republican. On this very board, are a number of intelligent Republicans, none of whom would pass your litmus test. Newsflash for you: Y0U havent passed the sanity litmus test, for nigh onto 2 or 3 years now.
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| | | 781 | Boldwin
ID: 361012125 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 16:01
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Yes, well you definition for republican and sane equals disagreeing with the republican base.
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| | | 782 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 16:05
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define "Republican base".
If you mean the TP? Yep If you mean extremist Evangelicals? Yep If you mean Reagan types? Nope.
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| | | 783 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 12:39
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The GOPs solution to secure more Electoral votes?
more gerrymandering
And then someone finally figured it out. Book it, done. Were calling the 2016 election right now for the GOP.
Ohio Secretary of State Jon Husted (R) has realized what has been missing from the GOP party all these years: not enough gerrymandering.
Husted, who already came under fire this election cycle for his partisan governance of provisional ballots, now proposes that Ohio divide up its electoral votes by Congressional district. You know, to be more fair.
Which doesnt sound that bad on its face, until you realize that under Husteds plan, 12 of Ohios 18 electoral votes would have gone to Mitt Romney, even though Barack Obama won the popular vote there 50.2% to 48.2%. The reason for this is Ohios severe gerrymandering of Congressional districts:
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| | | 785 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 15:07
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corporate profits at all time hish, wages at all time low
Wages as a percent of the economy are at an all-time low. This is both cause and effect. One reason companies are so profitable is that theyre paying employees less than they ever have as a share of GDP. And that, in turn, is one reason the economy is so weak: Those wages are other companies revenue. ~Business Insider
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| | | 786 | Boldwin
ID: 2810151220 Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 15:14
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Why is this a shock?
When you can find a CEO level talent out front selling pencils and apples on the sidewalk, the average guy doesn't have a lotta wage negotiation leverage, now does he?
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| | | 787 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 15:16
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from a comment beneath that article B. Excerpt from a book, I am going to order/read.
From "Currency Wars" by James Rickards [pg 221-222].
Over time and with increasing complexity, returns on investment in society begin to level off and turn negative. Once the easy irrigation projects are completed, society begins progressively larger projects covering longer conduits with progressively smaller amounts of water produced. Bureaucracies that started out as efficient organizations turn into inefficient obstacles to improvement more concerned with their own perpetuation than with service to society. Elites who manage the institutions of society slowly become more concerned with their own share of a shrinking pie than with the welfare of society as a whole. The elite echelons of society go from leading to leech. Elites behave like parasites on the host body of society and engage in what economists call "rent seeking," or the accumulation of wealth through non productive means-- postmodern finance being one example.
By 2011, evidence had accumulated to show that the United Stats was well down the return curve to the point where greater exertions by more people produced less of society while elites capture most of the growth in income and profits. Twenty-five hedge fund managers were reported to have made over $22 Billion for themselves in 2010 while forty-four million Americans were on food stamps. CEO pay increased 27 percent in 2010 versus 2009 while over 20 million Americans either were unemployed or had dropped out of the labor force but wanted a job. Of Americans with jobs, more worked for the government than in construction, farming, fishing, forestry, manufacturing, mining and utilities combined.
one of the best measures of the rent seeking relationship between elites and citizens in a stagnant economy is the Gini coefficient, a measure of income inequality; a higher coefficient means greater income inequality. In 2006 shortly before the recent recession began, the coefficient for the United States reach and all-time high of 47, which contrasts sharply with the all-time low of 38.6, recorded in 1968 after two decades of stable gold-backed money. The Gini coefficient trended lower in 2007 but was near the all-time high again by 2009 and trending higher. The Gini coefficient for the United States is now approaching that of Mexico, which is a classic oligarchic society characterized by gross income inequality and concentration of wealth in elite hands.
Another Measure of elite rent seeking is the ratio of amounts earned by the top 20 percent of Americans compared to to amounts earned by those living below the poverty line. This ratio went from a low of 7.7 to 1 in 1968 to a high of 14.5 to 1 in 2010. These trends in both the Gini coefficient and the wealth-to-poverty income ratio in the United States are consistent with [Joseph A.] Tainter's findings on civilizations nearing collapse. When society offers its masses negative returns on inputs, those masses opt out of society, which is ultimately destabilizing for the masses and the elites.
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| | | 788 | Boldwin
ID: 2810151220 Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 15:23
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When society offers its masses negative returns on inputs, those masses opt out of society, which is ultimately destabilizing for the masses and the elites.
Well duh. What do you think I been tellin' ya about over-taxation for all these years? I've gone 3/4 Galt myself right now.
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| | | 789 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 16:51
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Elites who manage the institutions of society slowly become more concerned with their own share of a shrinking pie than with the welfare of society as a whole.
That is almost word for word what I said in another post...thats kind of funny.
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| | | 790 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 17:11
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institutions of society in this case being, corporate America.
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| | | 791 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 19:29
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Another RINO: Erick Erickson
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| | | 792 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 20:56
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I've gone 3/4 Galt myself right now.
Oh please shut up. If you read the book you know Galt wouldn't have you.
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| | | 793 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 23:10
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Moderation is still a virtue Posted by Abdul-Hakim Shabazz on Nuvo.net
This past summer I was downtown walking toward the Capitol when I ran into Richard Mourdock. We hadn't seen each other since the primary and so we stopped to chat. I congratulated him on his win and told him that although I was a big Richard Lugar fan, I wished him well. I also shared with him a story.
The first U.S. Senate campaign I ever covered as a reporter was the 1996 race in Illinois. The storyline paralleled a lot of what happened here in Indiana. Longtime U.S. Senator Paul Simon was stepping down leaving the seat open. Democrats nominated then Congressman Dick Durbin and Republicans had a contested primary pitting Lt. Gov. Bob Kustra against moderate Republican and a state representative from the Chicago suburbs, a guy named Al Salvi. Salvi would have been the 90s version of the Tea Party. He was pro-life, pro-gun, pro-home school, anti-tax and just about anti-everything else.
Salvi galvanized the far right, called Kustra a RINO ["Republican in Name Only"] and everything else but a child of God and managed to win. He shocked the establishment by scoring a victory. And just when we thought things couldn't get any worse back then, he shocked everyone again by running a horrible campaign and ever since then, Dick Durbin has the been a U.S. Senator from my home state.
Does any of this seem familiar?
While I don't recall Salvi ever having a "rape/abortion/God's will" moment. The fact is that he never moderated his positions or more importantly, his rhetoric, he went on lose by a healthy 56 to 44 percent. You would have thought that any sane, rational political person would realize that the strategy you use in a primary isn't always the best one to use in a general election.And that is what the problem has been for Republicans for a while and it all came to a head in last week's election.
GOP associations with the crazy tea party crowd have paid their dividends. In a year with unemployment near 8 percent, Republicans managed to not only lose the presidency, but also Democrats had a net gain of two seats in the United States Senate. And, as my progressive counterpart Democrat Kip Tew noted, had it not been for 2010 redistricting, Democrats would have recaptured the U.S. House.
Republicans can no longer afford to be the party of angry, bitter, white men. The big reason being there won't be enough of them. America is changing and becoming a more diverse society. The GOP needs to understand. And instead of talking about forcible rape and God's will, the party should be talking about economic empowerment. No, I take that back, the party should be talking to blacks, Latinos and women about economic empowerment.
Barack Obama's campaign did one heck of an outreach, making an emotional connection with voters, making them feel like they had a stake in his re-election. Mitt Romney did not do that and the GOP at the U.S. Senate level didn't help matters much either by running so many extremists who have no real appeal to that moderate/middle-of-the-road voter. And what is the end result, a re-elected Barack Obama and more Democrats in Congress.
Oh well, there's always 2014. Maybe someone will learn moderation is not just a virtue, but a winning strategy as well.
If the Republican party wants to continue calling anyone who doesn't completely agree with all of their stances a RINO, I hope thy are prepared to become less significant then the Libertarian party.
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| | | 794 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 00:14
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Bobby Jindal gets it
"Weve also had enough of this dumbed-down conservatism. We need to stop being simplistic, we need to trust the intelligence of the American people and we need to stop insulting the intelligence of the voters.
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| | | 795 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 08:33
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Isn't Bobby Jindal the Governor of a state that is mandating books that teach creationism and that evolution isn't real? And he wants to stop insulting the intelligence of voters?
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| | | 796 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 08:36
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I'm sure the Republican party will rebound if it continues on it's anti-gay marriage and anti-marijuana stance. Oh wait.
The Age Divide
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| | | 798 | weykool
ID: 339121212 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 16:01
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If the Republican party wants to continue calling anyone who doesn't completely agree with all of their stances a RINO, I hope thy are prepared to become less significant then the Libertarian party. I take it you are giving up on your charade that you are conservative? FTR...you were not fooling anyone.
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| | |
| | | 802 | Boldwin
ID: 1210341416 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 17:39
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We fundies don't need you at all.
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| | | 803 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 17:40
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Pretty sure B, you have that bassackwards.
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| | | 804 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 17:49
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Attacking Frick's use of 3rd person pronouns in reference to Republicans as some admission that he is not conservative is quite illustrative of one of the major demographic problems facing the GOP.
Looks like weykool's choice is the same as Boldwin's: Go down with the ship rather than try to fix it.
Godspeed.
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| | | 805 | Boldwin
ID: 1210341416 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 18:07
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When it sinks, my fingerprints won't be found. It's your disaster. You own it.
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| | | 806 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 18:17
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It's your disaster. You own it.
So now it's the left's fault that the GOP offends and frightens more Americans than they inspire - and not the group of rabid ideologues who control it's policies and messaging?
Sorry buddy, but the party's descent into the maelstrom is being guided by exactly your choice of skipper at the helm.
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| | | 807 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 09:32
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I don't need the Republican Party, but the Republican Party does need people like me. Telling people who tend to agree with you to get lost, because they don't agree with everything you do, isn't a great strategy for long-term success. There will be occasional short-term successes like the Tea Party, but generally the path of the Republican Party is to grow smaller and more insular.
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| | | 809 | Boldwin
ID: 61050158 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 11:01
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by exactly your choice of skipper at the helm
Show me anyone in the Tea Party who had Romney as their first choice.
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| | | 810 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 11:07
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The leader of the GOP is not Mitt Romney. It might have been for a few brief months prior to Nov 6th but since late January 2009 (and possibly much earlier than that) the titular leader of the Republican Party has been and is Rush Limbuagh.
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| | | 811 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 11:23
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It's your disaster. You own it.
So the party of unpersonal responsibility continues. Boldwin, like many other TP'ers, wants to dictate who is and who isn't a Republican now, but then run away from the real-world effect of such decision making in the party.
This is a disaster specifically because the Republican base (i.e., the Tea Party) insisted on being stroked at every single step of the election. The GOP will be much better served, in the long run, to just cut their base loose just as the Democrats did in the 90's.
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| | | 812 | Boldwin
ID: 61050158 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 11:25
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I don't think titular means what you think it means.
[God I love that line]
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| | | 813 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 11:26
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I don't think you understand we don't accept your definitions of words anymore.
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| | | 814 | Boldwin
ID: 61050158 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 11:29
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That's part of being in the year 1984. You can't even be communicated with if you had an open mind.
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| | | 815 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 11:31
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I don't think you realize what size you are on in that metaphor, Boldwin. Your "base" has deluded themselves to the point of not even seeing truth when it smacks them in the face.
Godspeed, indeed. Your version of the GOP is both anti-democratic and anti-Christian. Good luck with that--at this point I'm ceasing responding to your posts.
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| | | 816 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 11:45
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812 - You're right (see is that so hard?). Defacto leader of the GOP.
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| | | 817 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 12:05
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That's part of being in the year 1984.
you're probably stuck 25 to 30 years prior to that.
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| | | 818 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 16:21
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Anna Navarro, CNN political contributor (and IMHO GOP apologist), throwing Romney under the bus re his comments of yesterday. "He is not the GOP spokesman, he is not a candidate for office, he is no longer the GOP nominee. He is yesterdays news", is what she had to say. She then went on to say how sad it is, that Romney is looking to blame others rather than look in the mirror for why he lost. The whole time I'm watching this, I'm wanting to scream at her...have YOU looked in the mirror AS A PARTY yet?
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| | | 819 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 16:28
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Navarro was John McCain's Hispanic outreach director in 2008. Dunno if she was involved in the Romney campaign (maybe) but I ran into her a bit in Florida where the Hispanic vote runs very Cuban (and therefore, both Republican and Crazy).
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| | | 820 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 16:58
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She then went on to say how sad it is, that Romney is looking to blame others rather than look in the mirror for why he lost. The whole time I'm watching this, I'm wanting to scream at her...have YOU looked in the mirror AS A PARTY yet
pretty accurate assessment on your part Sarge.
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| | | 821 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 20:31
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I think it's very premature to be writing off the Republican Party.
I do, however, think you can begin writing off what has more and more become a narrow definition of conservative, which has become synonymous with the unbending, tone-deaf far right.
There are many moderate and effective Republicans who have been purged of being conservatives, which has caused a devastating reduction in GOP appeal, except in the deep south and states with large rural populations. One only has to look at the thread Boldwin started during the early stages of the 2012 election cycle to see just how out of touch conservatives of his stripe are - Allen West for President.
Chances are good, the hard right and the center right will make amends for the good of the party, and more moderates will survive the caucuses and state conventions where they will fare better in statewide elections. Things could turn around quickly if the economy doesn't continue to recover and unemployment numbers stay high.
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| | | 822 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 20:55
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On one hand I agree PV, re writing off the GOP. Unfortunately for all of us, your closing statement is entirely true, and would seem to incentivize the House GOP and Senate Republicans, to continue to be the party of "no" vs one of governance. THAT, would serve only to embolden the far right, and preclude any party-wide "reconciliation"/consolidation.
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| | | 823 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 22:44
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Chances are good, the hard right and the center right will make amends for the good of the party,
you had me until this point....
i just don't see the hard right acquiescing. they've made a big deal of compromise being for the weak, and i just don't see how they can go back on that to their "base".
we've seen it with Baldwin. the minute someone doesn't toe the company line (most recently, Chris Christie), he or she is a rhino.
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| | | 824 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 23:07
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for example:
Bryan Fischer says the GOP shouldnt be trying to help Hispanics in America and shouldnt pretend they will become Republicans, rather, the GOP must clamp down on Hispanics because they are socialists by nature. Fischer, the public face of the certified anti-gay hate group, American Family Association, claims Republicans can pander all they want to Hispanics, to immigrants and it will not work. There is no way on Earth you care going to get them to leave the Democratic Party. Its one reason we got to clamp down on immigration.
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| | | 825 | Boldwin
ID: 131052163 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 05:07
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Republicans have absolutely nothing to gain by pandering to hyphenated Americans.
They do have an urgent need to connect with those who are eager to copy what made America succeed. There is a large majority of latinos who are ambitious, hard working and didn't come here for a free lunch at the minority victim cafe.
It's an urgent conservative project to get to them before they get bribed and seduced and ruined by a hammock on the liberal plantation.
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| | | 826 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 09:12
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Republicans would be wise to realize that Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California were once part of Mexico, and the majority of Latino residents in those states not only didn't come here for a free lunch at the minority victim cafe, they've been here for generations and are insulted to be characterized as people who just came here, as if they're not as legitimate to be Americans as white people who came from Europe.
Next time you look at a map of California, you might want to make a note of many of the state's major cities - San Diego, Los Angeles, San Jose, San Francisco, etc. Then, maybe, you can understand why they feel a bit upset by those who say,
It's an urgent conservative project to get to them before they get bribed and seduced and ruined by a hammock on the liberal plantation.
Get to them? Before their backs are dry? The urgent conservative project should be to recognize them as equal Americans instead of characterizing them as wetbacks.
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| | | 827 | Tree
ID: 321010169 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 10:10
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i figure the GOP has 12 years to get their act together in regards to Latinos. Texas will be a swing state by then if they don't, perhaps even being blue.
South Texas went big for Obama. Houston, Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, and El Paso (that's 3 of the top 10 biggest cities in the U.S. and 6 of the top 19) went for Obama.
this is a serious problem for the GOP, and posts like 825 only show to explain how large of a problem that is.
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| | | 828 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 10:22
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I am curious did any major metropolitan area go for Romney, I am going to guess no. I am not sure that is latino problem as much is that is urban problem.
You know there is much simpliar solution to this problem and that is not having a two party system. The GOP is locked into trying to be everything to everyone, if we had multiple parties then right of GOP could be there own thing.
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| | | 829 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 11:09
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The irony is that the Tea Party originally was very Libertarian in their ideology, with limited government including limited defense masked as offense and global entanglements, as well as being non-commital on social issues near and dear to the heart of conservatives.
So there are multiple parties, except the conservatives who embrace the Tea Party don't have the courage to hook up with the Libertarian Party because they understand the almost impossible challenge parties other than Republican or Democrat face on every level.
Consequently, the Tea Party got hijacked by the social conservatives who aren't polarized by the idea of legitimate rape, think minorities are only interested in free stuff, and prefer their rhetoric wrapped in belligerence, which includes claiming any Republican with a modicum of moderation is unworthy of the mantle of conservative.
It's quite dysfunctional.
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| | | 830 | Tree
ID: 321010169 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 11:17
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I am curious did any major metropolitan area go for Romney, I am going to guess no. I am not sure that is latino problem as much is that is urban problem.
Fort Worth did, and very much so.
as of 2011, Houston has the third largest Hispanic population in the US - nearly 44% of the population is Hispanic. Another 24% was African American.
as of 2010, San Antonio's population was over 63% Hispanic - well over double the population of non-Hispanic whites.
as of 2010, El Paso's population was over 86% of the population. (yes, you read that right. that's not a typo)
as of 2010, Dallas' population was over 42% Hispanic. in addition, 25% of the population was African American.
as of 2010, Austin's Hispanic population was "only" 35% of the population. Austin is also a bit of a blue oasis in a red state. after all, the unofficial motto is "Keep Austin Weird"...
Fort Worth - the only city of the bunch to vote for Romney, also has the smallest Hispanic population at just under 34%. I'm pretty sure Tarrant county has a reputation as one of the most right-leaning counties in the country, but, this too, is changing.
but, back to Houston, Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, and El Paso - four of those cities have very large Hispanic populations, two of them vastly outnumbering non-Hispanics.
so, yea, i'd say the GOP has a "Latino problem"...
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| | | 831 | Tree
ID: 2710271610 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 11:27
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New Mexico Gov. Susana Martinez, a Republican governor in a traditional Democrat state, who also happens to have Mexican roots:
"Republicans need to stop making assumptions, and they need to start talking to younger people, people of color, and ask themnot talk to themask them, 'What is it that we can do better? How do we earn your vote? How do we earn the ability for you to see that we can be the party that will make your life better and that of your children?'" Martinez said in an interview after the conference here. "But we can't be the ones that come and tell them how things are going to be and how we have all the solutions."
i believe she said this after reading post 825 above.
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| | | 832 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 11:36
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A couple of things re Hispanic voting:
-while many seem to show the huge Obama win among Hispanics as a problem stemming from the issues of immigration, self-identified Hispanics largely say their most important issues are economic ones. "Solving for immigration" as seems to be the call these days is unlikely to move those voters for the GOP if Republicans maintain their same economic stances.
-one of the reason some polls were showing a much closer races is because they were consistently wrong about how the Hispanic vote would break down.
-Hispanic votes are not all the same. Obama won Florida largely because the influx of Puerto Rican voters overcame the solid pro-GOP Cuban vote in the southern part of the state--the Cuban-American population in South Florida was a sort of GOP firewall for many years. Now, the Hispanic vote in FLA is largely a wash.
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| | | 833 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 12:51
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Re 830: I was asking nation wide, not just texas. I know even in the reddest of states the metropolitan areas still tend to go blue.
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| | | 834 | Seattle Zen
ID: 47630913 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 14:17
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I was asking nation wide, not just texas.
Oklahoma City. Salt Lake City. Omaha. Jacksonville, FL.
The counties that these cities reside all went to Romney. I got this from this map.
http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/results/president?WT.mc_id=NYT-E-I-NYT-E-AT-1114-L18&nl=el
If you want to limit it to city limits, you'll have to do that yourself.
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| | | 835 | Tree
ID: 4010161712 Sat, Nov 17, 2012, 13:16
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Republicans: GOP needs to get with the times
"We've got to have a very brutally honest review from stem to stern of what we did and what we didn't do, and what worked and what failed," said former Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour, who ran the party in the 1990s.
The party "has to modernize in a whole wide range of ways," added former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, who ran against White House nominee Mitt Romney in the 2012 presidential primary. "We were clearly wrong on a whole range of fronts."
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| | | 837 | Boldwin
ID: 5010412318 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 19:45
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Are you sure she's not a Democrat?
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| | | 838 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Nov 24, 2012, 05:14
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Barry Goldwater vs. the Religious Right
"I am a conservative Republican, but I believe in democracy and the separation of church and state. The conservative movement is founded on the simple tenet that people have the right to live life as they please as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process." (in a 1994 Washington Post essay)
I keep trying to tell people, todays GOP is not your fathers GOP.
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| | | 839 | Tree
ID: 31037249 Sat, Nov 24, 2012, 10:37
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Chambliss fires off on Norquist's anti-tax pledge
"I care more about my country than I do about a 20-year-old pledge," Sen. Saxby Chambliss told Georgia television station WMAZ, a CNN affiliate, on Wednesday. "If we do it his way, then we'll continue in debt and I just have a disagreement with him about that."
Chambliss disagreeing with Nordquist isn't exactly news, but i wonder if the wingnuts will now brand the Anti-choice, NRA-Endorsed a RINO.
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| | | 840 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 16:17
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Thier hypocrisy, knows no bounds
Republican Congressional candidate who campaigned on 'family values' arrested for slapping wife weeks after losing election
A Republican Congressional candidate who lost heavily in November's elections has now been charged with domestic assault.
Brad Staats, 43, who describes himself as a 'family matters' conservative, was arrested early on Sunday morning at his home in Hermitage, Tennessee.
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| | | 841 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 19:50
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What will they do if the economy booms? For too long, the Republicans have predicted apocalypse, debt crisis, the loss of freedom, the overthrow of the constitution. As the economy improves, that doom-saying will seem even more out of touch than ever.
Republican political chances will depend on the Republican ability to devise a positive program to address the country's fiscal problems in ways that improve people's lives. It's a new day, guys, and it demands a new game.
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| | | 842 | Boldwin
ID: 121044275 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 20:32
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If there is any boom coming it is from fracking. Republicans have a lot more credibility promoting that track.
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| | | 843 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 20:57
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The nation's economy added 171,000 jobs in October 2012, for a total of almost 700,000 in the four months before Election Day. More than half the jobs lost in the crash of 2008-2009 have now been recovered, even as public-sector employment has shrunk by a net 500,000.
The economy is recovering because consumers are less burdened by debt. They are paying down their credit cards, building home equity and strengthening their personal balance sheets.
As household debt burdens become lighter, consumers express more confidence. They are allowing themselves to spend a little more. They are even buying new homes again. Housing starts in October 2012 rose to a level 41.9% over a year before.
Accelerating economic activity is rapidly reducing the budget deficit. The deficit has contracted since 2009 at the fastest rate since the end of World War II, faster even than during the late 1990s boom.
Wages remain flat, and will likely stay flat until unemployment contracts more, but Americans can begin to see better times ahead for the first time in a long time.
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| | | 844 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 21:00
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And yes, fracking is where the big potential is.
If it does break open like some say it might, that's going to look pretty strange to people who have been buying the GOP line that Obama has spent his entire presidency stifling energy development.
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| | | 845 | Boldwin
ID: 121044275 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 22:12
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There are plenty of stupid people you can sell that bushel of horse manure to.
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| | | 846 | Boldwin
ID: 121044275 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 22:16
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Welcome to the boomtown.
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| | | 847 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 22:50
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There is the affect or the recession. Cant show Obama as the cause however.
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| | | 848 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 22:53
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Either you stonewall any stimulus that would decrease unemployment, or you whine that there is high unemployment.
When you do both at the same time, you look like a bloody moron.
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| | | 849 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 22:59
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bili FTW.
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| | | 850 | Boldwin
ID: 121044275 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 23:34
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Refresh my memory. I was unaware any stimulus spending had been successfully stonewalled. No one sent me an invitaion to the celebration.
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| | | 851 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 00:05
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(there is a reason, they didnt invite you)
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| | | 853 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 12:55
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From the comments section of a Balloon Juice post about the surge in Democratic Party support from Asian Americans:Ive written it before
nobody said anythingbut everyone who wasnt White and not a sellout, quietly observed the unrelenting disrespect shown this President and his entire family.
They, too, have lived under the previous 43 WHITE Presidents, and noticed the difference.
and, they made their voice heard on November 6th on what they thought about it.
they really thought they were just gonna roll and take away the RIGHT TO VOTE for some FIVE MILLION AMERICANS and nobody was gonna say shyt.
I said it beforethe number that shocked them was the 70+ percent of ASIANS.. that voted for the President.
They just knew that Asians were down with the White is right.
They never heard a peep from the Asians but they made their voice heard.
and, they were shockedSHOCKEDthat the Latinos came out to vote, and didnt vote for a man who cozied up to the Papers, Please Law creator and Prop 187 Pete WILSON. Like that was just supposed to fly over the heads of Latinos.
Because, we all know that they stood by silently the overwhelming majority of the MSM, as this President and his ENTIRE FAMILY were insulted..
They were ready for the narrative that only Black folk were insulted, and of course, it was in our imaginations.
Barack and Michelle Obama are the EPITOME of the American Dream.
They are what EVERYONE who wasnt born RICH in this country, and cant dribble some sort of athletic ball is told to do:
Go to school
Excel.
Work your ass off.
Nobody is saying that youll become President.
But, if you arent born rich, this is the way to middle-class success at the very least.
The GOP continually disrespected this self-made man and his wife.but, the only people who noticed were Black folks, and we were told we were being too sensitive, and it was in our imaginations.
The highest educated populace in this country is the Asian-American community. They value those pieces of paper like nobodys business.
You dont think they noticed
That being President of the Harvard Law Review is a spectacular achievement Until Barack Obama won the Presidency of the Harvard Law Review.
Graduating Magna Cum Laude used to be a spectacular achievement Until Barack Obama graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law School..which of course, means he got his degree in crayon at the Black Entrance.
How PHI BETA KAPPA meant something Until the PHI BETTA KAPPA from PRINCETON that also won the PRIZE FOR TOP STUDENTwas a LATINA
A LATINA judge that had more judicial experience than any other nominee for the Supreme Court in SEVENTY YEARS
Suddenlyshe became an Affirmative Action Pick.
Seriously..you dont think folks noticed that?
You dont think the Asian community noticed the disrespect from the Senate towards Dr. Steven Chu- not only a PhD, but a NOBEL LAUREATE?
Seriously?
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| | | 854 | Tree
ID: 3210532813 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 15:21
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eek.
Top Romney Adviser Brags About Losing Poor, Minority Voters To Obama
"On Nov. 6, Mitt Romney carried the majority of every economic group except those with less than $50,000 a year in household income," top advisor Stuart Stevens wrote. "That means he carried the majority of middle-class voters. While John McCain lost white voters under 30 by 10 points, Romney won those voters by seven points, a 17-point shift."
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| | | 855 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 16:21
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The question you should be asking is what does that mean for the country and the president if did not carry the "middle" class(assuming the data is correct)? I am surprised that Bolwin has not chimed it to say this is just more evidence Obama just won because the people who want a free hand out got him elected.
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| | | 856 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 17:20
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What I think the article ignores, is that many who WERE middle class, arent anymore and many who are middle class USED to be lower upper class. IOW, the economics of the demographics changed.
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| | | 859 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 19:16
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Lindsey Graham Wants the Government to Be Able to Lock You Up Forever Without a Trial
The text of the amendment, which is circulating on the Hill but has not yet been formally introduced, would affirm the government's power to "detain under the law of war" any individual "who joins al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or an associated force" and "plans or participates in a belligerent act against the United States on behalf of such forces anywhere within the United States and its territories." In other words, you could be deprived of your freedom in a war with no definable end, based on the mere suspicion that you've committed a crime. During the debate over last year's defense bill, Congress agreed to leave open the question of whether or not military detention authority applied to US citizens apprehended on American soil. This amendment would ensure that it does.
The amendment is a response to the one proposed by Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) that would prevent the government from detaining Americans and legal permanent residents suspected of terrorism without charge or trial. That amendment wouldn't protect all non-citizens apprehended on US soil however, so civil liberties and human rights groups are opposing it as unconstitutional. "Any approach to dealing with indefinite detention should be consistent with basic constitutional principles, which say that all persons are guaranteed due process," Human Rights First's Raha Wala said in a statement emailed to reporters.
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| | | 860 | Boldwin
ID: 54115211 Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 03:10
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Sad that that will be the only issue Obama and Lindsey will see eye to eye on for the next four years.
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| | | 861 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 00:38
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PV has oft lamented, how sad it is that Conservatoves today, are not much interested in conservation
In a country that has vaunted its purple mountain majesty to a place of anthem, hymn; visceral and true patriotism, there is something deeply contradictory about a political party that represents less than half that beautiful America, doing what it can to gut an act of Congress that, for almost 50 years, has been in place to protect the wilderness we so cherish. But the GOP-led House of Representatives passed a bill in April of this year, called The Sportsmens Heritage Act, H.R. 4089 , that is designed to do exactly that.
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| | | 862 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 00:42
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Was poking through conservativepedia the other day--it was all about refuting evolution.
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| | | 863 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 00:56
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| | | 865 | Tree
ID: 201140413 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 15:02
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Jim DeMint says...
"Speaker [John] Boehner's $800 billion tax hike will destroy American jobs and allow politicians in Washington to spend even more, while not reducing our $16 trillion debt by a single penny," DeMint said in a statement.
"This isn't rocket science. Everyone knows that when you take money out of the economy, it destroys jobs, and everyone knows that when you give politicians more money, they spend it. This is why Republicans must oppose tax increases and insist on real spending reductions that shrink the size of government and allow Americans to keep more of their hard-earned money."
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| | | 866 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 15:34
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I would completely agree, so long as we can limit this to those who, indeed, worked hard for the money in question.
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| | | 868 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 16:33
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Boehner's plan isn't a plan. It's just a few number scribbled down. Other then screw the youngish-elderly a bit by delaying medicare, and doing some weird warping of the definition of inflation, it doesn't specify any revenue plan at all. Neither of those two things he precludes allowing "Americans to keep more of their hard-earned money."
More importantly, those 2 proposals don't even get halfway to what is already a vastly insufficient revenue bump, if we want to get our country on track and reduce the deficit.
Bzzz. Try again.
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| | | 870 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 17:26
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Right. At some point, the Republicans have to offer a plan that where you can apply the simple functions of addition and subtraction, and not get an imaginary number. Don't they?
Romney and his little buddy Gilligan, or what ever his name was, refused to do that, and look where it got them.
At some point they have to do their share of leading, don't they? They are our elected leaders, right? Right?
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| | | 871 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 18:16
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Other then screw the youngish-elderly a bit by delaying medicare
The problem isn't delaying medicare. The problem is End-of-Life costs
For most politicians dealing with Medicare reform, end-of-life cost is one issue that dare not speak its name. It's more toxic in the public arena than the idea of a radical Medicare overhaul, and it brings up images of the fictional "death panels" and "rationing." Despite being the third rail of Medicare reform, it simply can't be avoided if policymakers are serious about reducing overall costs. Yet addressing these expenses involves a larger societal debate that extends beyond Capitol Hill into every American household.
There's little question that end-of-life care consumes a disproportionate amount of Medicare spending, accounting for up to 25 percent of all Medicare expenditures.
Unfortunately, that's not the extent of it.
Dr. Kelley also found that dementia was the most expensive malady to treat. Since Medicare doesn't cover custodial nursing careand only a limited amount of skilled institutional nursingfamilies are often forced to spend their life savings to cover the bills. And once they do that, they often then rely upon Medicaid to pay for the remaining expenditures. In many cases, beneficiaries will deliberately spend down their savings in creative ways in order to qualify for Medicaid so nursing care will be covered. Medicaid, the health program for the poor, was never designed to cover nursing home care, but has become a last-resort financing pool for those families that become impoverished by end-of-life care. This growing cost will escalate as the incidence of Alzheimer's disease grows and as baby boomers get older.
Isn't there somebody around here always complaining about spending other people's money? There's little question that end-of-life care consumes a disproportionate amount of Medicare spending, accounting for up to 25 percent of all Medicare expenditures.
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| | | 873 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 18:36
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No doubt. And Obama care attempts to at least address the actual problem: high costs. Knocking the healthiest out of the system will only save a relative pittance.
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| | | 874 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 19:09
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I don't understand why Medicare can't work like Social Security. Social Security has a set amount paid each month, with cost of living allowances now and then. We don't give people more social security as the get older, and then a lot more right before they die.
If Medicare offered a set amount every month, doctors would be hesitant to have patients undergo every expensive test known to man, and seniors would be more conservative in their medical visits. This would make even more sense with Medicaid, where recepients have no trepidation to spend as much on free medical care as possible, when a person spending out of pocket is going to think twice about a doctor visit unless they really need it.
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| | | 875 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 19:12
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Because that completely doesn't solve the question of what you do with someone who requires more care than those set amounts provide. The only options are "screw 'em, let them die" or "come up with the cash". Or, I suppose, "make someone else treat them but don't pay them", but that's really no good either.
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| | | 876 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 19:40
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All these questions are too difficult to solve with one solution. But it'll knock off a lot of the fat from the system.
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| | | 878 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 20:17
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Best lines: The 39% of Americans with an opinion about Bowles/Simpson is only slightly higher than the 25% with one about Panetta/Burns, a mythical Clinton Chief of Staff/former western Republican Senator combo we conceived of to test how many people would say they had an opinion even about something that doesn't exist.
Never over estimate, the intelligence of the American voter.
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| | | 879 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 20:19
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someone who requires more care than those set amounts provide
What about someone who requires care, has no insurance, and is 30, 40, 50 or 60? And that 60 year old has been paying into Medicare for 40 years?
What if whatever you don't spend out of your monthly stipend carries over? People would be more apt to save their medical credits for times of real medical crises. Of course, they can also buy supplemental insurance like they do now. Good idea for people with chronic medical problems and hypochondriacs.
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| | | 880 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 13:34
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"You working stiffs need to feel more pain"
TIM FARLEY (HOST): The payroll tax holiday is likely going away. People will likely get that increase in the deduction from your pay as of January 15, youll see your first paycheck, 2 percent will be gone. And I wonder if, even if you come to a solutionpeople are going to look at their paychecks and say, I thought we solved this and look at all this money being taken out of my paycheck.
PRICE: Well, remember, step back and recognize that weve had four straight years of trillion dollar plus deficits, were $16 trillion plus dollars in debt. This doesnt get fixed without some pain for everybodyThe remarkable challenge that we have requires more work and more diligence and more pain for more individuals.
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| | | 881 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 14:00
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pg 84 (reprinted w/o permission)
"Smoke and mirrors to the contrary, lowering taxes on the most favored element of society is the sole object of Republican fiscal policy. They are not serious about deficit reduction. Their behavior has demonstrated it, and their heated rhetoric on the subject is sound and fury signifying nothing. Any serious discussion in this country about deficits and debt must proceed from that fact."
Who wrote this? Mike Lofgren. A man who spent 28 years as a GOP Congressional staffer. The last 16 years, as a Senior Analyst on the House and Senate Budget Committees.
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| | | 882 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 14:02
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When your party is down to a single, narrow constituency, it isn't surprising that you no longer have the interests of the country as a whole at stake.
Change or die, GOP.
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| | | 883 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 14:08
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That paragraph follows about a 3 page run. where Lofgren explains in fair detail how the GOP voted against deficit reduction after deficit reduction measure put before them SOLELY, because some of the VERY wealthiest in America, would see some increase in their taxes.
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| | | 884 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 14:11
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Yeah, it is pathological. They'll spend thousands of dollars each (or more) donating to GOP members who often lose, in the hopes of not having to spend that same money in additional taxes at fairer rates.
Penny wise, pound foolish.
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| | | 885 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 15:46
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I agree with you PD, but I think your phrasing is something that understandably upsets some. The rich already pay the majority of taxes, to say that they should pay additional taxes at fairer rates seems designed to sound good to the majority, but would be upsetting to anyone effected by the increase.
I think tax rates on the rich (and by rich I don't mean the upper middle class), should see an increase in their taxes. That doesn't make it fairer, they already pay higher amounts and typically higher percentages. Fairer is a poor choice of words.
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| | | 886 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 16:10
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I don't care for the term fair (or fairer) either. Fairness is relative.
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| | | 887 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 16:14
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The fact that the wealthy pay the majority of taxes doesn't speak specifically to its fairness, particularly with both income and overall wealth increasingly become concentrated into the hands of a few.
If a small sliver of society is making, say, 80% of all income, it simply isn't fair to say that they are paying a majority of taxes.
Putting aside the absolute numbers, it isn't fair even from a rate point of view--the wealthy are taxed on a majority of their income at far lower rates than those below them on the income scale.
Finally, our historic tax rates have demonstrated that we are below what we as a society have considered to be "fair" for generations.
This is all, of course, free from the context of the debt, much of which has directly accrued because of tax rates on the wealthy being driven down to historically low rates. We as a society are literally paying interest so that the wealthy in this country pay less of their income in taxes.
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| | | 888 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 16:39
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tax rates on the wealthy being driven down to historically low rates
and by historically you mean post WW2, I assume
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| | | 889 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 16:51
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never been lower in our lifetimes, and not in the lifetimes of many of our parents
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| | | 891 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 17:13
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One can nibble at the numbers without changing anything substantive in #887.
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| | | 892 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 08:57
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Re: 887
Could you explain how the wealthy are taxed on a majority of their income at far lower rates than those below them. Are you including capital gains as income? That would be a fair inclusion, but also muddies the water, so let's keep this to only income taxes.
Effective Tax rates.
I couldn't find effective tax rates by section further back then 1979, and there were massive changes prior to that. But, if anyone thinks that tax rates for top earners of 70-90% are fair, I don't think we can have a even have a discussion.
Look at the link above, tax rates for everyone have decreased. They have decreased the least for the top bracket and the most for the lower 4 quintiles.
As I said, raising the tax rates for the top rate might be appropriate, but calling it "fair" is not the right word.
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| | | 893 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 09:23
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When you are discussing those making more that 250K, income from capital gains and dividends is crucial to consider, as for most, it makes up a significant portion of their income.
Particularly when there are fancy ways to move regular income to qualify as capital gains (carried interest).
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| | | 894 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 09:47
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we all assume this true but is it? I wonder what the actual break down taxes paid is, what portion comes from income, capital gains, dividends,....I think this is part of the problem the system so convoluted that you can even make accurate argument with out getting to semantics.
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| | | 896 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 11:27
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DeMint's departure means both Republican-held SC Senate seats will be challenged in 2014.
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| | | 897 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 11:45
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Yes, it's true.
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| | | 898 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 11:52
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Exactly. This is why the effective tax rate for the wealthiest are lower than for the rest of us.
Also, note that we only pay Social Security tax up to about the first $125K or so of income, so those making less than that have 100% of their payroll income subject to a tax that the wealthy only have to pay on a portion of their income (and none on capital gains & dividends). So even those making, say only 35% of their income from capital gains with a payroll income of $600 K are paying an effective Social Security tax of only about 2.5% or so.
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| | | 899 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 12:50
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This is why the effective tax rate for the wealthiest are lower than for the rest of us.
no that is why effective rate is higher than some but probably not higher than most of country.
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| | | 900 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 12:54
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no, that is why it is LOWER than for most who pay income taxes.
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| | | 901 | weykool
ID: 339121212 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 14:06
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no, that is why it is LOWER than for most who pay income taxes. The only way you can repeat this lie is by including Social Security taxes. Making an argument to raise income tax rates because of a horrible social security system is pretty stupid.
A married couple with 142K taxable income has an effective income tax rate of 19.4%. As incomes drop so will the effective rates.
A married couple making 5 mil ordinary income plus 5 mil capital gains will pay 34% on the ordinary and 15% on the cap gains for an effective rate of 24.5%.
If you have examples to back up your lies by all means please share with us.
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| | | 902 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 14:15
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BS WK...dont even call something a lie that has been verified time and time again.
15% CG tax rate with a majority of taxable income coming from CG vs EARNED. yields an artificially lower overall income tax burden.
Grow up, and quit thinking that if you call the truth a lie often enough, people around here will believe you.
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| | | 903 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 14:16
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Mitt Romney....24 mill income, 14% tax rate
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| | | 904 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 14:25
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Apparently Social Security taxes are not taxes in WK-fantasy land. But thanks for regaling us with your alternate definitions of reality.
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| | | 905 | weykool
ID: 339121212 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 14:50
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Bogus information Sarge. You are looking at total income and not taxable income. From what I could find Romney had 13.69 mil of investment income and paid 1.9 mil in taxes. The 14% effective rate ignores the 4 million in charitable contributions. If you subtract the 4 mil from the 13.69 you get 9.69 and 1.9 taxes paid on 9.69 of income is 19.6%. Purposely making misleading statements is no different than knowingly lying.
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| | | 906 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 14:55
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The only way you can repeat this lie is by including Social Security taxes.
??? That was exactly the point. This is like saying "The only way you can repeat the lie that the Yankees are better than the Indians is by including their infielders in the comparison!"
And the more one makes in capital gains the more unequal this all becomes. Often, the wealthiest get more in capital gains income than payroll (as they should--they get taxed at less than half for getting their income this way).
This is why the tax code revision should treat capital gains as ordinary income. Half the problem will be wiped away (the other would be wiped away with rolling back the Bush tax cuts on other over $250 K).
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| | | 907 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 15:34
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WK? ROMNEY said he paid 14%. You are deducting his charitable contributions, twice.
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| | | 908 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 15:36
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either way you count it that is still higher % more than at least 40% of the country pays.
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| | | 911 | weykool
ID: 339121212 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 16:13
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either way you count it that is still higher % more than at least 40% of the country pays. Wrong. 50% of the population pays ZERO income taxes an effective rate of ZERO. Some of that 50% pay a negative income tax. Married couples with 70K of taxable income pay 13.8% in taxes. If you add everyone making less than 70K and paying some taxes Im sure you are looking at significantly more than 10% of the population. Using total income to derive an "effective tax rate" is purposely misleading.
And the more one makes in capital gains the more unequal this all becomes. Often, the wealthiest get more in capital gains income than payroll (as they should--they get taxed at less than half for getting their income this way). OFTEN? You are mistaken. A quick look at the graph in post #897 will prove you wrong. The number of taxpayers with more than 50% of their income from capital gains is a tiny sliver of the .1% Raising the capital gains rates will mean less revenue collected. Which is why Clinton cut the rates from 28% to 20% in 1997...to increase taxes collected.
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| | | 912 | weykool
ID: 339121212 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 16:22
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Not deducting it twice Sarge. They contributed 4 mil but only deducted 2.25 of it. If they didnt take any deduction for contributions their "effective rate" would have been 18.8%.
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| | | 913 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 16:34
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50% of the population pays ZERO income taxes an effective rate of ZERO. Some of that 50% pay a negative income tax. Married couples with 70K of taxable income pay 13.8% in taxes.
I am not sure where you got this info but there is slight problem with it if 50% pay no taxes and since a couple making 70k would put them some where between lower 40 and 50th percentiles of income seems a bit contradictory. It would see either less that 50% are paying nothing or couples make 70k should probably be paying nothing. Either way you point is still the same.
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| | | 914 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 16:35
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47% pay no income tax, that is correct.
(1) Active Duty military in a combat zone. (2) A large number of retired (3) Most every student in the country (4) Most Wal-Mart employees (5) The so called "working poor"
Which of those groups, do you think needs to be more heavily taxes boikin/WK? Bear in mind, you want to tax these folks, so people making 100k/month, can pay less tax.
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| | | 915 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 16:43
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This was so widely reported at the time I cant believe WK you are going to sit here and argue otherwise:
The media have stopped pressing Romney for more information about his tax history, which is unfortunate, since theres still a lot we dont know. The 2010 tax return Romney released in January, which showed that he paid a rate of 13.9 percent in income taxes,...
link
This isnt to say that Romney hasnt given generously to the Mormon church. He has, though of course that tithing also lowers his taxes significantly. But hes not above using the church like this so he can keep his tax bill below 15 percent.
link
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| | | 916 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 16:44
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50% of the population pays ZERO income taxes an effective rate of ZERO.
We are only referring to people who are paying taxes. It makes no sense to say that some people are paying a less fair rate than others pay by throwing in people who don't pay any tax (which is another argument entirely).
They contributed 4 mil but only deducted 2.25 of it.
There is no reason Romney's accountant can't file an amended return and claim the whole amount.
Romney is an excellent example of a guy who uses capital gains as income. As far as I know, he had no wage income (and thus, received the more favorable rate on the money he got). His Bain money is carried interest, in fact.
And he's also a bit of a poster child for loopholes driving down taxes.
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| | | 917 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 16:46
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and just to be clear WK, ones EFFECTIVE income tax rate, is tax liability divided by GROSS income. This becomes the EFFECTIVE income tax rate.
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| | | 918 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 16:47
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The number of taxpayers with more than 50% of their income from capital gains is a tiny sliver of the .1%
No. The mean is already over 50%. So likely, (depending on how skewed the distribution is) more than half the .1% get more than 50% of their income from capital gains and dividends.
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| | | 919 | weykool
ID: 339121212 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 17:13
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Bili did you look at the actual numbers? Go to the IRS site and you will see incomes over 10 mil make up 3/10 of that .1%. And on average they have 50% from capital gains.
Incomes between 5 and 10 mil make of 1/2 of that .1% and they average 40% of income from capital gains.
The remainder of the 1/5 of the .1% are from lower incomes which would suggest less than 40%.
Ignoring those figures look at your own graph you posted. Taking the top 1% you only get 38%.
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| | | 920 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 17:16
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He wasn't taking the top 1%. He was taking the top .1%. As was I.
You seem to be confusing "often" with "majority" as well. I'll refrain from using the "WK Rule" and accusing you of lying, but if you are going to forcefully argue against a point it would do you well to have that point firmly fixed in your mind first.
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| | | 921 | weykool
ID: 339121212 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 17:38
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Do you have actual numbers to back up your use of often? No you dont. The first half of my post looked at the top .1% Look up the numbers yourself if you dont believe mine.
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| | | 922 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 17:43
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I would say a 30% of the time is certainly often. Much closer to describing often than "a tiny sliver".
Unsurprisingly, the distribution skewed towards the right, though that wasn't clear from the graph.
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| | | 923 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 17:55
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from 905:
Purposely making misleading statements is no different than knowingly lying.
Quite true And knowing the difference between the "nominal" tax rate and the "effective" tax rate and then STILL making the statements you did in 905....well........
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| | | 924 | weykool
ID: 339121212 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 18:04
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We dont have a breakdown of that 30%. As your graph and my numbers suggests the more you pare down the numbers the more highly skewed the distribution is. 30% is a best case scenario assuming an even distribution. A highly skewed distribution could mean as little as 5-10%. .005% to .01% is hardly OFTEN.
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| | | 925 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 18:18
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Often, the wealthiest get more in capital gains income than payroll ....
English 101 for you WK:
By referring to THE WEALTHIEST, when using the term OFTEN, we can discount the VAST majority of people from consideration. "THE" wealthiest, could indeed refer only to the top .1%, 30% of which earn MOST (more than 1/2) of their income from CG. This, renders the statement entirely true.(and accurate) Your efforts then t deflect and bring the 99.9% back into the equation so as to disprove the use of "often"...well...I refer again to your final line in 905.
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| | | 930 | Tree
ID: 4104129 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:44
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The Party of No, becomes the Party of F*ck You, and no, i'm not talking about Boehner's words to Reid.
NY area lawmakers: House GOP scraps vote Sandy aid
New York area-lawmakers in both parties erupted in anger late Tuesday night after learning the House Republican leadership decided to allow the current term of Congress to end without holding a vote on aid for victims of Superstorm Sandy.
"I'm here tonight saying to myself for the first time that I'm not proud of the decision my team has made," said Rep. Michael Grimm, R-N.Y. "It is the wrong decision, and I' m going to be respectful and ask that the speaker reconsider his decision. Because it's not about politics, it's about human lives."
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| | | 931 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 12:35
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Tree, that was not a 'sandy aid' bill, but a bill with so much other stuff in it. It deals with nearly every state, not just the states affected by Sandy. Its a nice attempt to paint a picture that isnt.
Yes, parts of the bill will help with the Sandy relief aid. But no, that is not a bill based on sandy. Its a bill with aid for sandy put in it and congress will vote on it when they return.
From a USA today article: House Appropriations Committee Chairman Hal Rogers of Kentucky and other conservatives are calling for a much smaller bill to cover only the most urgent needs, putting off until 2013 legislation to address long-term needs such as protecting beaches and transportation networks from another storm.
And here's a quote from a Washington Times article:
Democrats had to turn back Republican efforts to cut programs such as $150 million in fisheries aid that Republican lawmakers said was unrelated to the storm
And from xe.com The $23.8 billion offered in the Republican plan would be less than 30 percent of the initial $82 billion aid request made by New York, New Jersey and Connecticut earlier this month, based on early damage estimates from the Oct. 29 storm.
The Republican plan would eliminate some $13 billion in infrastructure improvements aimed at helping to prevent damage from future storms. Among these are projects to keep New York City subway tunnels from flooding and to build sand barriers to protect some shorelines from storm surges.
It labels $5.4 billion to make transportation systems more resilient as 'non-Sandy related.' The Amtrak passenger rail agency, a frequent target of Republican budget-cutting efforts would get only $32 million under the bill, instead of $336 million.
Coats said such mitigation efforts were 'long-term projects' that should not be immediately funded without further study.
So you see, Tree, this is not just Republicans saying "no" to sandy relief because this is not sandy relief. This is republicans saying yes to immediate needed relief and no to unrelated stuff that they want separated out to deal with later.
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| | | 932 | Tree
ID: 2510132311 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 13:20
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Peter King says enough is enough, and to not give one penny to the GOP.
may leave the GOP too...
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| | | 933 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 13:38
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A new yorker outraged that his state cant get a bloated spending package that would benefit his state even though most of the bloated spending has nothing to do with Sandy relief.
I will give him credit. He's looking out for his constituency which is a good thing. I don't particularly like the way he's doing it. But he was elected to take care of NY and he's trying to do that.
If we had more individuals in congress who would put constituents over party we might see some real progress. This is just a bad example as he's trying to do it by playing politics.(I really think how riders are used needs to be examined and cut back on).
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| | | 934 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 14:03
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"Most of" seems to be overstated. What the House did was take out most of the long-term project help. This isn't "pork."
This is like your basement flooding from stormwater, asking for help with it, and being told "no, we're not going to fix the water coming in. And I'll get back to you in a few weeks about pumping you out--might not happen."
The national GOP might have different spending priorities. But let's not kid ourselves: Spending you don't like isn't always "pork."
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| | | 936 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 14:15
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Actually PD, I never said I don't like what they are looking to spend money on. I just don't like that they are looking to spend it in this bill supposedly designed for Sandy.
And "most of" is not overstated. The initial bill was $80bil. The bill that reached them was $60bil. They want to approve $24billion right now and have the other stuff looked at separately.
I don't see whats so wrong with that.
I do see it as wrong that the people who proposed the bill had to crowbar in all the unrelated issues to the sandy-aid package hoping they would pass or hoping they could cry foul at anybody who didn't pass it.
Again, that is one of the major problems our government has in making laws.
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| | | 937 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 14:46
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Governor Christie a few minutes ago:For the victims of Sandy in New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut, its been 66 days and the wait continues. Theres only one group to blame for the continued suffering of these innocent victims: the House majority and their speaker, John Boehner. This is not a Republican or Democratic issue. National disasters happen in red states and blue states. In states with Democratic governors and Republican governors. We respond to innocent victims of national disasters not as Republicans or Democrats, but as Americans. Or at least we did, until last night. Last night, politics was placed before an oath to serve our citizens. For me, it was disappointing and disgusting to watch.
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| | | 938 | Boldwin
ID: 29042213 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 14:53
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I'd be pretty disgusted too if I lived in Jersey and watched my aid being conditionally tied to raising baby fish in Alaska.
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| | | 939 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 15:02
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Pete King:Im saying anyone from New York and New Jersey who contributes one penny to congressional Republicans is out of their minds, Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., told Fox News. What they did last night was put a knife in the back of New Yorkers and New Jerseyans.
Meanwhile, King called the decision a disgrace and immoral and accused fellow Republicans of turning away from Christie. What did they do? They knifed him in the back,
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| | | 940 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 15:03
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#936: Which is why the bill was split--the smaller bill was what was to be considered.
I see that part of the outrage is that King and others were basically lied to. They were told that the smaller package would be brought up for debate and a vote and it never came up.
I'd be pissed too.
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| | | 941 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 15:51
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More Christie today:And Governor Cuomo and I are as frustrated as two people can be because unlike people in congress we have actual responsibilities. And we have a responsibility to make things happen.
So, Im not going to get into the specifics of what I discussed with John Boehner today. But, but what I will tell you is there is no reason for at me at the moment to believe anything they tell me. Because they've been telling me stuff for weeks and they didn't deliver.
Ask them if another two weeks matters to them in their lives. Those are the people Im concerned about. Those are the people I care about. Not the politicians in Washington D.C. who will say whatever they need to say to get through the next day.
If the people of New Jersey feel betrayed today by those who did this in the house last night then they have good company. Im with them.
There are some people who have been extraordinarily helpful. So, you know, but certainly at the moment I wouldn't be you know looking to do much for house leadership.
And I believe we have a majority of house of representatives as well. Its a matter of the speaker deciding when he wants to do this. Cause this was his decision to stop it.
Its now time for them to stand up for this region of the country as well. This should not be something thats subject to politics. This is a basic function of government. And so yea Im concerned about it. Cause every day that it doesnt happen is a day that it doesn't happen. And so I cant take anybody's assurances anymore.
And so the speakers irresponsible action in not moving on anything at least appears from the information Ive been given will leave the flood insurance program broke by the end of next week.
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| | | 942 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 15:58
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More (boy was he ever in rare form): Last night my party was responsible for this.
I think last night was a big mistake and I think it can be rectified and can be rectified by [Boehner]. So no, he hasn't lost all credibility with me but right now, you know, I think what happened last night was absolutely uncalled for and I've been given no credible explanation as to why.
This is 66 days and counting. Its unprecedented, its outrageous. And this is what happens. Theyre all so caught up in their own politics of this fake fiscal cliff.
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| | | 944 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 14:37
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A full third of the Republicans in the House or Representatives voted against Sandy relief today. Not the $60 billion package that some people say is more pork than relief, but the $9.7b they separated out to cover flood insurance that was supposed to be entirely non-controversial.
In 2005, the 109th Congress, which had Republican majorities in both houses, approved $60b in relief just 10 days after Katrina. Those votes were as close to unanimous as you get: 410 - 11 in the House and 97 - 0 in the Senate.
It has been 10 weeks since Hurricane Sandy.
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| | | 945 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 15:43
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Assuming this was all actual sandy relief funds then anybody who voted against it is an idiot. Thats exactly what we have certain federal agencies for. Its exactly what we've been paying taxes for. This is exactly the situation FEMA and flood insurance are in existence for.
I can only think of 3 reasons they would vote no: 1) drunk/high/stupid 2) playing politics 3) honestly feel we shouldn't have these as national programs
If its 1 and 2 they need to be kicked out of office right away. If its #3, while I can understand what they did, I don't think this is the right time to make a statement. Give the people that need it the aid and work on reform or change another time.
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| | | 946 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 16:02
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Republicans are racist. Wait...
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| | | 947 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 16:05
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It was specifically to cover flood insurance claims for hurricane victims. Included among the 67 no-votes is former vice presidential candidate Paul Ryan.

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| | | 948 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 16:09
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From what I understand, all or most of the nay voters are members of Club for Growth.
The Hill - Club for Growth will punish members voting for Sandy flood aid Congress should not allow the federal government to be involved in the flood insurance industry in the first place, let alone expand the National Flood Insurance Program's authority, a statement from the Clubs Andy Roth said. An NFIP reform bill was passed with bipartisan support in the last Congress, but some conservatives believe the program should be ended or slowly curtailed. Supporters of NFIP say that the private marketplace will not offer flood protection to the public at affordable rates, making a government program necessary. Flood policies are sold by private insurers who often package the policies with other home coverage. The 2012 NFIP reform bill was supported by the insurance industry. The flood insurance bill, sponsored by New Jersey conservative Rep. Scott Garrett (R), is the first slice of Sandy aid being allowed to come to the floor in the new Congress.
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| | | 949 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 16:15
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Ryan is a joke. I am sure he'll spend the next few years taking idiotic, "principled" stands like this one thinking that he can use this on the campaign trail in 2016. But he should know he has no future as a national figure.
There isn't really a good explanation to vote against federal disaster relief funds. It's just dicks being dicks.
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| | | 950 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 16:31
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The NFIP, was one worst thing to ever happen coastal regions. Before NFIP you never saw million dollar mansions in hurricane prone coasts, because no one would insure them. While I am not saying they should have voted against the bill, because most sandy victims would have been able to get insurance pre-NFIP. But lets face it the NFIP is not god send, but a government subsidy to rich in exchange for taxes paying for ever growing hurricane damages.
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| | | 952 | Tree
ID: 2510132311 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 00:55
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I must have missed the post where Baldwin rationalized the no votes..
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| | | 953 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 02:14
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#945: Exactly. Well put.
#952: He's waiting until Rush tells him what to say.
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| | | 956 | Boldwin
ID: 1303155 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 13:11
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"I bet you don't have an answer to that" - PD
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| | | 957 | Tree
ID: 35054512 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 14:40
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so, in other words, you don't.
not enough balls to actually say it yourself, but close enough.
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| | | 959 | Boldwin
ID: 1303155 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 18:44
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#957
Gotta read quicker than that.
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| | | 961 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 16:23
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He sounds to me, like he is looking for the "Great High Chancellor".
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| | | 962 | Tree
ID: 2510132311 Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 16:47
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You're the one who refuses to answer Baldwin. Then again, considering you support murdering police officers, it comes as no surprise you're ok with not helping those who's lives were wrecked by a natural disaster.
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| | | 965 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 20:00
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Which party members "get" marginal taxation?
I don't think this is so much a matter of intelligence as that it isn't in the best interest of the GOP to explain how marginal taxation works to its members. Doing so would only have the political benefit of making Obama's plans seem less scary.
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| | | 966 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 20:28
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I get a 404 error PD
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| | | 967 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 20:39
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weird! I have it up on a tab, but trying to get it in a new tab or window doesn't work, nor does the link from Bruce Barlett's page (which is where I first saw it). Just emailed them.
Basically, they pointed out that a simple question about marginal taxes got the correct answer only a shade over half the time. But Democrats got it more right by about 25 points.
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| | | 968 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 20:51
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That doesnt surprise me so much. Way back in the mid 80s, I was Temp Duty with a Recruiting Bn HQ. In that same Federal Bldg, was the local IRS field office. Having lunch one day and talking with one of their auditors, he allowed that if you called in with the same question 10 times, and got 10 different agents on the help line, you stood a REALLY good chance of drawing 8-10 different answers.
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| | | 969 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 09:24
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I'm surprised that they got 50% correct responses, I'm guessing that part of that would be the selection of who answered.
Part of the reason I hate arguing about taxes is that tax rates make a nice line for arguing, the effective rates are what matter. We could have marginal tax rates of 90% and it wouldn't matter if the effective rates were 10%. It is confusing and makes for a lot ammunition when arguing, but at the end of the day, the effective rate is what matters.
I've asked here and on other forums for people to calculate a tax rate and most people can't answer because they don't under stand how marginal tax rates work. Just thinking about it, I have a feeling that you could convince most flat tax advocates to support our current system if you dressed it up the right way. We have a flat tax rate, for various income ranges in essence.
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| | | 970 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 23:55
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GOPs Death Panel
We need to accept the principle that sometimes poor people will die just because they are poor.
How incredibly Christian of them.
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| | | 971 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Jan 11, 2013, 01:43
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The link in #965 appears to be working again.
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| | | 972 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Fri, Jan 11, 2013, 07:35
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effective rate 13.5% marginal rate 25%
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| | | 973 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jan 16, 2013, 14:27
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deliberate obstructionism
The room was filled. It was a whos who of ranking members who had at one point been committee chairmen, or in the majority, who now wondered out loud whether they were in the permanent minority, Frank Luntz, who organized the event, told FRONTLINE.
Among them were Senate power brokers Jim DeMint, Jon Kyl and Tom Coburn, and conservative congressmen Eric Cantor, Kevin McCarthy and Paul Ryan.
After three hours of strategizing, they decided they needed to fight Obama on everything. The new president had no idea what the Republicans were planning.
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| | | 974 | Tree
ID: 480541611 Wed, Jan 16, 2013, 14:49
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We need to accept the principle that sometimes poor people will die just because they are poor.
this sentiment is so vile, i'm stunned anyone would actually sign off on it.
that being said, i have a hard time processing the honesty of anything that refers to something else as a "death panel". i'd really have to do more research on this one...
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| | | 976 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Jan 17, 2013, 11:57
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| | | 979 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Fri, Jan 18, 2013, 09:15
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Granted, they are writing to their audience. But, for the 95% that comes across as repulsive.
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| | | 981 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Sat, Jan 19, 2013, 19:22
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The article is probably true. But it is article like this that make people think that their is a left leaning lean to the media. I'm sure that the left has never had a meeting in a room named after a similar person. But, it doesn't get reported.
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| | | 984 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 15:30
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The GOP needs to drop the Roe-v-Wade debate
Its hard to get 70 percent of Americans to agree on much of anything these days. But, for the first time, one of those things is Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion.
According to a new poll from NBC News and the Wall Street Journal, released on the laws 40th anniversary Tuesday, fully seven in 10 Americans say they would oppose the overturning of the Supreme Court decision. And perhaps more remarkably, 57 percent say they feel strongly that it should not be overturned.
In other words, politically speaking, its time for Republicans to stop talking about Roe v. Wade.
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| | | 988 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jan 24, 2013, 19:03
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"Ever read some of those Fox News website comment threads on race stories, like this rather fascinating thread when Whitney Houston died, or certain Obama articles? Its like reading Bull Connors diary. No, this doesnt mean every conservative is a racist. But it does mean that if you find yourself at a table with five conservatives and try to break the ice with a watermelon joke, youre very likely to get somewhere between two and three laughs."
GOP attracting minorities?
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| | | 989 | Boldwin
ID: 310182420 Thu, Jan 24, 2013, 21:26
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After you've overturned morality and everything that was good is now bad and everything that was bad is now good...
And after you've renounced the belief in evil and individual responsibility...
And after you've denied anyone has the basis to judge anyone else...
By what then do you hang your good-guy, bad guy hat onto? You've left one moral principle intact, racial equality, and since you believe yourselves to be the good guys, everyone else must by process of elimination be a racist.
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| | | 990 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 01:35
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This is criminal
What The 2012 Election Would Look Like Under The Republicans' Vote-Rigging Plan
Republicans have a new strategy for 2016: Change the rules of presidential elections in order to swing the electoral college in the GOP's favor.
On Wednesday, Virginia's Republican-controlled legislature became one of the first to advance a bill that would allocate electoral votes by congressional district. Last week, Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus endorsed pushing through similar proposals in other states with Republican legislative majorities.
The strategy would have states alter the way they translate individual votes into electors -- thereby giving Republican candidates an advantage. Had the 2012 election been apportioned in every state according to these new Republicans plans, Romney would have led Obama by at least 11 electoral votes. Here's how:
The GOP, instead of accepting that their message has been rejected, want instead, to change the rules and shove their bigotry down our throats.
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| | | 991 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 08:30
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I actually like this idea. If you take it back further, who would have won prior elections? I would think that Gore would have won.
It also promotes voting in states that haven't typically mattered in the past. I live in Indiana and other than 2008, we have voted Republican since my parents were born. I take that back, I kind of enjoy not seeing nothing but political ads for 6 months.
But, really how many states would vote for 1 party 100%? Even a state like Mississippi has pockets of Obama support.
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| | | 992 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 08:35
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If you take it back to 2012, R0omney would have won.
This is an attempt to subvert the will of the people, and empower minority rule. This puts the power of the ECV, into sparsely populated rural districts (by their sheer number) and disempowers the majority of the populace, living in smaller geographies, ie cities.
This is not in any way, shape or form, a good thing.(it further exemplifies the problem of gerrymandering. What happens when a Dem majority wins a state house? They gerrymander, and the whole system gets convoluted yet again)
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| | | 993 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 08:43
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Don't districts have approximately the same number of people in them. Which is why we redistrict every 10 years? Doesn't your argument kind of argue against the case of what currently happens. If you win the populated coastal states, you could lose all of 70% of the area of the country as it isn't heavily populated, and thus doesn't have as many votes?
And while Romney might have won if you used the votes cast, don't you think that the voting would have been vastly different in many states under this scenario? Republicans in California, Illinois and New York would have had a reason to vote and potentially have that vote matter. Democrats in Indiana, Texas, and Georgia would have had the same opportunities.
How many people don't vote because the outcome of their state is decided months in advance?
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| | | 994 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 08:54
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Lots of questions there Frick. No, I dont think this is in any way, a good thing. It takes the power of the vote, away from the majority.
It is clear, the GOP has refused to accept that its message was rejected. Now, rather than revisit their stand on issues and listen to the people, they intend to change the way the people speak, so their rejected message can prevail in the election.
I honestly do not understand how in hell you can possibly agree with this action by the GOP.
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| | | 995 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 09:16
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| | | 996 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 09:25
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Do this, and you dont need a national election for the Presidency. Just have the House of Representatives appoint the president for the next 4 years, because thats exactly what it would amount to.
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| | | 997 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 09:30
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This is a direct attack on further weakening the power of the cities.
Cities generally are were the money is made, and but also where the services are needed.
In Washington the Seattle area's vast wealth is taken and redistributed to the rural counties, for both transportation and education.
This would simply make it more extreme.
Cities are our future, given our earth's desperate need to stop sprawl and the emissions that come with it. Density is key.
If we continue to steal representation from the densest places, they won't be able to fund the services and infrastructure that is vital to living in close proximity to each other.
This sort of thing destroys representation because urban areas are overwhelmingly democratic, where as the distribution is less extreme in the rural and suburban areas.
You are stealing the representation of places with strong concentrations of democrats. I.e. cities.
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| | | 999 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 09:44
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And if there is any doubt remaining that this is a Republican plan to game the system by diluting the role of democracy in an era of an unfriendly majority, note that you will not find any medium to large reliably red states considering any plan to divvy up their electoral votes, unless we were talking about adopting the plan nationally - which would greatly benefit them under the current allotment.
But if you really think further removing the power of the individual vote from our version of national democracy is a good idea, then any non-partisan approach would also include a move to a non-political formula or even computer-generated randomization of how districts are drawn.
Of course doing so would probably ensure Dem majorities in every branch under the current political climate.
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| | | 1000 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:49
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Re: 999
I think that part two of your post is a key to get support behind the idea. I don't think that is every going to happen though.
I like the idea that states don't have to delegate 100% of their votes to 1 candidate, as it would increase voter turnout and increase the power of individuals votes.
The fact that it is being pushed in a few states that the GOP has lost recently and would be fought against in states they control shows that they are hypocrits. I was supporting the general idea, not how the Republicans were trying to cram it in a few places to benefit themselves.
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| | | 1001 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 10:54
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I like the idea that states don't have to delegate 100% of their votes to 1 candidate, as it would increase voter turnout and increase the power of individuals votes.
Why is this better than eliminating the electoral college all together?
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| | | 1002 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 11:48
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And making the Presidential election, a general election? I'm not sure. Every vote is exactly equal, so it is hard to argue against it.
I'm sure that the Republican party will get behind that right away.
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| | | 1003 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 11:53
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Apportioning votes, according to gerrymandered districts, is NOT the route to a fair and open election.
I'd MUCH prefer to see the ECV done away with entirely, than for it ot be so transparently manipulated.
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| | | 1004 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 12:51
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For the record there are probably some old threads in which I openly considered the possibility of allowing states to divide up their electoral votes.
I don't think it's necessarily such a bad idea in a system where the districts aren't rigged.
The point would be to try to reflect the popular breakdown of each state - not the gerrymandered breakdown.
Also, two states - Maine and Nebraska - do this already.
Separately, there is also a movement among the states to strip the power of the electoral college to supersede a popular vote in a presidential election, called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.
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| | | 1005 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 13:34
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It really has to be an all-or-nothing kind of thing. If Red states were to do the same, the Democrats would (presumably) pick up blue areas within those states to balance out some of the loss of red (rural) areas in Blue states.
Overall this would make the races more competitive, increase voting, and allow for a wider body of people to actually elect (and be courted by) a future president.
But that's not will go on in PA under the proposal. Under that proposal, the overage the Democrat gets from solid blue areas would be tossed once he received one more than the majority of the votes. And while that is true for Republicans as well, this discounts the fact that so many more people are affected by it in the blue areas.
One person, one vote.
The problem with the EC (winner-take-all) isn't done away with by shifting winner-take-all to each Congressional District only in states where that benefits Republicans.
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| | | 1006 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 13:52
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Tying the EC to Congressional Districts, as I said above, negates any purpose in a National Presidential election. Just have the House tell you who is going to be President because THAT, is what it would amount to.
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| | |
| | | 1008 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 18:11
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#1006: Perhaps (without posting the many examples of one party winning a House seat while the other party winning the Presidential nod in the same district). But your point is undercut by the reality of what is already happening: There is no "National Presidential election" right now.
A true CD-level vote across the country would put far more areas into a competitive one. Right now there is no reason for a Republican to go into Massachusetts or a Democrat to go to Wyoming or Texas for that matter. Putting more areas into competitive play makes the process a better one.
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| | | 1009 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 19:01
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Dem House candidates garnered substantially more votes than did the GOP, yet the GOP held the House. How? Through extreme gerrymandering. (Yes, the Dems have done it too, and its disgraceful regardless which party does it.)
With the rural districts in the country grossly outnumbering the urban ones, the odds of them retaining their GOP "flavor" are high. The likely result, that the GOP (assuming this all came to pass), would hold the House and the WH, despite losing huge in popular vote counts. The Senate? Would be anybodys best guess.
That is not an equation to a "more fair" election process.
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| | | 1010 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 19:40
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You are mixing up the changing of Congressional district lines (gerrymandering) with how a state llocates its electoral votes.
There is no doubt that the GOP believes both of these things to be paths to continued power. But they are not the same thing.
And you know that, by law, Congressional districts have to have the same number of people in them, right? So it isn't really the case that rural districts outnumber urban ones. Urban area have far, far more districts in a smaller area because the population requirement.
It is actually easy to change to proportional allocation to ensure that the winner of the popular vote in a state still has an advantage: Give the extra EVs to the popular vote winner.
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| | | 1011 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 19:58
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There is no doubt that the GOP believes both of these things to be paths to continued power. But they are not the same thing
PD?? THAT, is precisely what the GOP is trying to do. You win X% of the CDs, you get that % of the states ECVs.
Look at the original link, and look what happens to the ECVs for the 2012 election if it were dont that way. We would now have Pres Romney, despite his losing the popular vote by over 4,000,000. Coupled with a Majority GOP House, despite their losing that popular vote.
Taking the results of the election AWAY form the people, can only be called grand theft. Defending it, defies all logic.
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| | | 1012 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Jan 26, 2013, 01:12
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Kerry, finishing the evisceration of the GOP which Hillary started:
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| | | 1013 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Jan 26, 2013, 08:51
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#1011: Actually, that's not exactly the case, but it seems this is one of those things where you've made up your mind. No matter. Let's just say that if the way the President is elected change, the strategies for campaigning will change. Even someone like yourself, who has already decided what to believe, has to allow for the fact that the way a candidate would campaign would be different if the change in the allocation of EC votes was different.
This is like maps of "What if only white people voted!" or "What if only primary voters were allowed to vote in the general election!" It is speculative, at best.
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| | | 1014 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Jan 26, 2013, 11:58
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Having worked a campaign, and yes I know pne campaign is not all informative, I was appalled at the insanely HIGH percentage of voters who vote straight party lines. After the last round of gerrymandering, if you allocate ECV by CD, you may as well call the GOP Primary, the Presidential Campaign.
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| | |
| | | 1016 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Fri, Feb 01, 2013, 08:47
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So he will be a hypocrit who is trying to represent his constituents. At least he has half of the equation right.
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| | | 1017 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Feb 01, 2013, 12:32
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Well, to be a hypocrit he has to accept money or propose aid that does not include an offset in spending. If he accepts an aid package that involves a spending offset he is staying true.
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| | | 1018 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Feb 01, 2013, 14:51
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That's one way to be a hypocrite. Another is to deny others aid he himself would request for his constituents.
All this is rather speculative (obviously!), but it wouldn't be the first time a congressman realizes the importance of federal help only when his own district needs it.
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| | | 1019 | Boikin
ID: 24124115 Fri, Feb 01, 2013, 16:24
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Actually you could argue that by not helping the sandy victims and helping GA ones he is just looking out for his constituents since they benefit from both. His excuse was hypocritical but his results were his job.
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| | | 1020 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Fri, Feb 01, 2013, 16:44
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but his results were his job <--Your steaming load of the day.
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| | | 1021 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Feb 01, 2013, 17:28
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Looking out for his constituents is his job. Screwing others isn't.
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| | |
| | | 1024 | Boldwin
ID: 28152622 Thu, Feb 07, 2013, 00:04
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Rove's strategy seems to be to take the biggest pool of republican campaign dollars and support candidates who can pose as Tea Party conservative, but who in fact have no principles.
AC on the other hand...
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| | | 1025 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Feb 10, 2013, 19:09
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fiction? Not so much....
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| | | 1026 | Boldwin
ID: 581501018 Sun, Feb 10, 2013, 20:04
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Kumbaya to you too Sarge.
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| | |
| | | 1028 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 22:13
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Senate Republicans have decided to filibuster Hagel for Sec Defense. The first time ever that a cabinet nominee has been filibustered.
But whatever you do, don't call it filibustering! Just call it "The need to suddenly get the same number of votes to break a filibuster to get the position."
Maddow has more.
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| | | 1029 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 22:19
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so, tell me again how important the military services are to the GOP.....
waiting......
waiting.............
waiting..................
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| | | 1030 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 21:31
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They did it.
My email to Sen Toomey:
"It was with dismay that I read your vote in support of the temporary filibuster against the nomination of Chuck Hagel to be the Secretary of Defense.
No cabinet nominee, ever, has been filibustered in the long history of this nation. Yet you voted to do this for, what, no real reason at all. Rather than facing an up-or-down vote for the position, you seemingly insist on using the readiness of our Department of Defense as leverage for more information from the White House on a separate topic.
I'm embarrased you represent me."
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| | | 1031 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 22:21
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There hasn't been a real filibuster since Jimmy Stewart. They just say they're going to filibuster and then that's the end of it. I want to see somebody out there reading the phonebook. Going all night and around the clock. Long-winded speeches.
Plus, if you have 59% of the vote, all you have to do is out-geezer them to get one less voter on their side, and push the % to over 60%. Let's have a real filibuster.
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| | | 1032 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 22:30
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I agree. Make then actually sit there in the room.
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| | |
| | | 1034 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 16:32
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I don't wonder.
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| | | 1035 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 16:39
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I have mixed feelings about the ruling. I have no problem with the judge granting the long-term injunction until her pregnancy is over. But stipulating that they have to provider her a car? That over steps the judges purview IMO.
Responsible for 1/2 of her medical bills? I don't know what the law for this is, but I assume if a minor goes to the hospital for any other instance, the hospital is able to force the parents to pay? If so, why are the parents responsible for only 1/2 of the bill?
This is a weird case of where our laws create gray areas. The child is still technically a minor, so who is responsible for the newborn? Can a judge rule that a minor can prematurely is granted their majority?
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| | | 1036 | Tree
ID: 3131915 Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 17:11
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yea, you're right Bili. there really isn't any question.
Frick - definitely an odd case, no doubt.
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| | | 1037 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 20:55
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Unless the Judge is saying 1/2, because the parents want her to abort. *shrug* Maybe, some 'leniency' on the costs are being granted, because the parents would opt for a different medical course. (Not saying I agree or disagree, just postulating out loud.)
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| | | 1038 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 11:11
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Gingrich Today It is appalling how little some Republican consultants have learned from the 2012 defeat.
It is even more disturbing how arrogant their plans for the future are.
Of course these consultants have made an amazing amount of money asserting an expertise they clearly dont have.
They have existed in a system in which the candidate was supposed to focus on raising money and the smart consultant would design the strategy, spend the money and do the thinking.
This is a terrible system.
I feel compelled to write this because of Karl Roves recent assertions and my very unsettling round table with Stuart Stevens on ABCs This Week this past Sunday.
First, Rove.
I am unalterably opposed to a bunch of billionaires financing a boss to pick candidates in 50 states. This is the opposite of the Republican tradition of freedom and grassroots small town conservatism.
No one person is smart enough nor do they have the moral right to buy nominations across the country.
That is the system of Tammany Hall and the Chicago machine. It should be repugnant to every conservative and every Republican.
While Rove would like to argue his national nomination machine will protect Republicans from candidates like those who failed in Missouri and Indiana, that isnt the bigger story.
Republicans lost winnable senate races in Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Florida. So in seven of the nine losing races, the Rove model has no candidate-based explanation for failure. Our problems are deeper and more complex than candidates.
Handing millions to Washington based consultants to destroy the candidates they dislike and nominate the candidates they do like is an invitation to cronyism, favoritism and corruption. What do the moderates and righties here think?
Team Newt or Team Rove? Or neither?
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| | | 1039 | Tree
ID: 341292011 Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 12:29
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i think it's a GOP/Tea Party problem. it's a small sample size, but living here in Texas, i've got enough friends that lean to the right.
and in Facebookland - again, a small sample size - my friends who lean right seem completely oblivious to what happened this past November in every way, shape, or form.
they seem lost that the "wars" they're fighting - social issues, Benghazi, the improving economy - aren't wars they can win anymore, and, at least in the case of Benghazi, is a virtual non-issue for most Americans.
it's weird, and it's difficult to comprehend their way of thinking.
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| | | 1040 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 14:44
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How Paul Krugman broke a Wikipedia page.
Useful since many on the Right still subscribe to an Austrian-style economic theory.
Krugman's quote at the end gets to the heart of the matter, I think.
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| | | 1041 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 16:21
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That sounds about right, economics never believe any theory outside there field.
The problem is Paul Krugman is genius not for knowing anything about economics but for knowing that he won't get proved wrong till he dead.
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| | | 1042 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 16:58
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He doesn't know anything about economics? Upon what do you base that opinion?
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| | | 1043 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 17:49
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The Austrians say so.
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| | | 1044 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 14:29
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This is NOT just in, America agrees with Democrats over Republicans on just about everything.
Without Jerry Mander drawing Congressional districts, Republicans would be a very small part of the discussion in DC.
Pew Research released a remarkable survey this morning that gauges public opinion on pretty much every major issue facing the country. It is not an exaggeration to say that solid majorities of the American people agree with Obama and Democrats and disagree with Republicans on every single one of them. This is not a partisan observation. Its what the numbers show:
Taxes and the deficit: 76 percent say the we should reduce the deficit with a combination of tax increases and spending cuts (the Democratic position), while only 19 percent say tax increases should be off the table completely (the Republican position). While a majority of those who want a combination of the two want it to be weighted towards spending cuts, thats also the position held by many Democratic leaders (to the chagrin of the left).
Minimum wage: The public favors raising it to $9.00 per hour by 71-26. Even 50 percent of Republicans favor raising it.
Gun control: Americans favor passing major new gun legislation in the next few years by 67-29. Americans favor expanded background checks by 83-15, favor an assault weapons ban by 56-41, and favor banning high capacity magazine clips by 53-44.
Climate change: 54 percent say the most important priority for our energy supply should be developing alternative energy sources, while only 34 percent say it should be expanding exploration and production of oil, coal and natural gas. Americans favor setting stricter emission limits on power plants by 62-28.
GOP will take blame for the sequester: One last finding from the Pew poll, this one concerning the sequester:
Obama holds the upper hand politically over Congressional Republicans. If there is no deficit deal by March 1, 49% say congressional Republicans would be more to blame while just 31% would mostly blame President Obama.
GOPs numbers in the toilet: A new Bloomberg News poll piles on:
Fifty-five percent of Americans approve of Obamas performance in office, his strongest level of support since September 2009, according to a Bloomberg National poll conducted Feb. 15-18. Only 35 percent of the country has a favorable view of the Republican Party, the lowest rating in a survey that began in September 2009.
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| | | 1045 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 14:56
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so what does this say? People vote against what they believe? Which is diffidently a possibility or macro level polls are not reflective of micro level voting habits. I know you are going to say something about jerry mandering but clearly that can not be the case, or simply put Obama would have won his election by about 20% points according to this poll.
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| | | 1046 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 15:13
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Gerrymandering definitely has an impact. So does party brand.
You also have to take into consideration the limits of the poll.
They didn't poll every single issue that might decide someone's vote. And of course there's no reason to think the results of this poll should reflect the way people were thinking 3 1/2 months ago, much less omit results from anyone who didn't vote.
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| | | 1047 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 15:29
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What is being lost here is that many people don't vote for what they believe, but vote against what they don't believe as well. The GOP hasn't had much in the idea pipeline for awhile, but can maintain their relevance by asserting that they are against Obama and the Democrats. They don't need new ideas for that--just the willingness to paint the Democrats in strongly unflattering ways (even, at times, to make up stuff).
Enter the GOP: Saviors from those bad, bad Democrats.
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| | | 1048 | Boldwin
ID: 511322113 Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 17:55
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Boner appears to be throwing up his hands and letting spending originate in Obama's Senate. Not constitutional of course, but there it seems to be.
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| | | 1049 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 18:18
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The house majority is completely disfunctional. The un-government.
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| | | 1053 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 20:38
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Oh, c'mon--that was a great line!: "I've got the fake names for 12 Communists who are political message board regulars..."
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| | |
| | | 1055 | Boldwin
ID: 1317234 Sat, Feb 23, 2013, 11:11
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bili
Failure to pass spending bills is functioning perfectly in my estimation, bili.
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| | |
| | | 1057 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Feb 23, 2013, 22:28
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You still dont get it do you Boldwin? The spending, has already taken place. The House authorized it. NOW, its time to write the check. Its not a spending bill.
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| | | 1058 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 11:49
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Rubio's school plan
One of those ideas is the undermining of public schools. Under the guise of helping lower-income parents, Rubio is offering the Educational Opportunities Act to move students from public to private schools, most of which are church-affiliated, at taxpayer expense. To get around church-state separation problems his plan would give taxpayers dollar-for-dollar federal tax credits for "donating" money to designated scholarship funds that would pay for private school education. Some would call that money laundering.
This is a tea partier's dream come true. It starves the federal treasury of tax revenue, funnels children into religious indoctrination, erodes support for public schools by having parents abandon them and, perhaps sweetest of all, harms all those progressives who have chosen to be public school teachers as well as their unions.
Money Laundering...a reasonably accurate description.
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| | | 1059 | boldwin
ID: 581222411 Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 12:25
|
#SequestrationThreat White House forced to cancel contract with silverware polishing service MSNBC - David Burge
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| | |
| | | 1061 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Feb 26, 2013, 12:02
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Chris Christie snubbed at CPAC.Mitt Romney and Jeb Bush are conservative enough to speak at CPAC but not Christie? Hes the current vice chair of the RGA and will be chairman next year for the midterms. Hes headed for a landslide reelection victory in a deep blue state, where his approval rating is currently the highest for a New Jersey governor in the 17 years since Quinnipiac started tracking that. Hes one of the few members of the party with a national profile whos reasonably well liked by voters across the board. -Hot Air.
What a disaster that party is.
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| | | 1062 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Feb 26, 2013, 12:05
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He made the mistake of not turning his head and spitting when he saw Obama in person.
If there is a resurrection of the GOP, it won't come from CPAC.
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| | | 1063 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Feb 26, 2013, 12:07
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True that.
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| | | 1064 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Tue, Feb 26, 2013, 22:53
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Once 'inconceivable,' Republican leaders sign pro-gay marriage brief
Slowly but surely, the GOP is being dragged out of the 15th century, despite its tantrum of kicking and screaming. Kudos, to those who have awakened.
Supporters of same-sex marriage hope for a boost this week when dozens of high-profile Republicans, many no longer in office, submit their legal argument to the Supreme Court on why gays and lesbians should be allowed to wed, bucking their party's platform in a move that one who had a change of heart on the issue said would strengthen our nation as a whole.
More than 80 Republicans are signatories to the "friend of the Court" brief to be filed in the case over Proposition 8, a California law banning same-sex marriage, according to the American Foundation for Equal Rights, which is waging the legal battle against the law. The nations high court will hear arguments in the case in late March. The New York Times first reported on the brief.
Meg Whitman, HP's chief executive officer and president, at a meeting on Jan. 16. She says she has had a change of heart on the issue of gay marriage.
One scholar described the effort as inconceivable just two years ago, and one of the signers, former California gubernatorial candidate Meg Whitman, said in a blog that she had changed her mind on the issue, like several others who have either sought or held public office, including President Obama.
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| | | 1065 | Boldwin
ID: 45151272 Wed, Feb 27, 2013, 04:10
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One more craven politician who has discovered how to work the liberal press. Just be the one republican in the room most eager to perform an anti-conservative act for the camera.
What a mess the republican establishment is. If McCain could get nominated for president, Christie still could.
It is quickly becoming clear that conservatives need a new party as the republican party is not reformable and not responsive to their base, never will be.
Very questionable if there would be a republic left by the time they got it up and running tho, at this critical point in time.
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| | | 1066 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Feb 27, 2013, 08:58
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What a mess the republican establishment is.
The most honest, and accurate statement you have posted...in months. Though your rationale behind the statement, is entirely off base.
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| | | 1067 | Tree
ID: 1910562515 Wed, Feb 27, 2013, 10:21
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It is quickly becoming clear that conservatives need a new party as the republican party is not reformable and not responsive to their base, never will be.
they have completely pandered to their base for the last several years, and it's gotten them lower and lower in the polls. most of America doesn't see eye-to-eye with the Republican "base", which is such a ridiculous term because those folks aren't their base at all.
Very questionable if there would be a republic left by the time they got it up and running tho, at this critical point in time.
yes. that's exactly what's going to happen. you should leave. and soon.
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| | | 1068 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Feb 27, 2013, 11:50
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Other than the United States (where the Right has gotten in bed with the Christianists) pretty much all other western countries the right wing parties support gay marriage rights for conservative reasons.
It is pretty much only here, where "the base" have lost their way on what it means to be a conservative, that it is important to prevent people from forming lasting, recognized unions.
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| | | 1069 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Feb 27, 2013, 15:35
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Even you must be aware that conservatives are historically anti- union.
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| | |
| | | 1071 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Feb 27, 2013, 15:56
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I guess the memo sent by the American people in November wasn't received.
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| | | 1072 | Tree
ID: 311412812 Thu, Feb 28, 2013, 16:38
|
hear that? that's the sound of the GOP continuing to splinter...
Clint Eastwood Joins Republicans for Gay Marriage, Highlighting Growing GOP Rift
also:
One of the four former Republican governors who signed the legal brief in favor of same sex marriage is ex-New Jersey governor Christine Todd Whitman who she says there are days she "absolutely" doesn't feel like part of the party because she says the GOP is being "defined by the talking heads and they don't for the most part represent me."
"We are talking about family values, we are talking about commitment that so many people hold in such high regard it shouldn't make a difference if it's between a man and a woman or two men or two women," Whitman said. "We are the party of family values and limited government. Getting out of the bedroom is a good first step."
Whitman, who is also the former administrator for the Environmental Protection Agency, said the purist conservatives are statistically a smaller number of people in the party, but are the loudest because of their role in the party's primaries where voter turnout can be very low.
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| | | 1073 | Boldwin
ID: 261462818 Thu, Feb 28, 2013, 19:56
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No one ever pretended the republican party was monolithically socially conservative.
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| | | 1074 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 09:03
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But, if a person is not absolutely socially conservative, they are a RINO?
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| | | 1075 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 09:12
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Right. As B will tell you there are many phonies within the party.
No one denies the existence of those who don't belong.
The apparent bellwether is tea party approval.
And when distinct tea party groups disagree, always go with the one that sounds more generally hateful of other human beings.
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| | | 1076 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 09:23
|
Justice Scalia's comment re Sect 5 of the Voting Rights Act, being the last bastion of racial entitlement; rather says all that needs saying re todays GOP at the national level. Apparently in his eyes, voting is a right for a white man, but an entitlement for a black man.
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| | | 1077 | Boldwin
ID: 58251117 Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 19:04
|
Frick
It would be a rare conservative who would kick a socially liberal/fiscally conservative out of the party. They would work their darnedest to make sure the socially liberal lost on those particular planks however.
That being said, I'll add a wrinkle. CPAC and organizations like it which serve to steer the party right are crucially important and the majority of conservatives don't want the log cabin republicans doing the steering. They're all welcome in the party tho.
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| | | 1078 | Boldwin
ID: 58251117 Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 19:07
|
Another wrinkle. One of my best Twitter friends is a very out-there homocon. Funny as hell tho. OMG is he funny. I'm trying to push him to get published, his tweets are so awesome.
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| | |
| | | 1080 | Tree
ID: 2510132311 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 09:38
|
That twitter exchange was really something else. Wow.
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| | | 1081 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 09:40
|
That Sinclair quote is priceless.
And there are a lot of deniers out there, insisting that Obama is still at least half at fault.
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| | | 1082 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 10:15
|
GREAT find PD. Makes it clear, that obstructionism and excuse making, is the GOP name of the game.
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| | | 1083 | Boldwin
ID: 252530 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 11:07
|
What goes around comes around.
Bob Woodward, finds himself on Nixon 2.0 enemy list.
Last week, Woodward published an opinion piece in the Washington Post where he is an associate editor saying the administration was wrong to blame the cuts on Republicans.
Woodward...wrote a detailed account in his 2012 book, The Price of Politics, of the August 2011 deal that led to the cuts.
On Wednesday he attacked Obama for drawing national security into the budget debate.
So we now have the president going out (saying) Because of this piece of paper and this agreement, I cant do what I need to do to protect the country. Thats a kind of madness that I havent seen in a long time, Woodward told MSNBC on Wednesday. Today he finds himself on the White House enemies list. What a difference time makes, or none at all.
Because of course, Obama invented the sequestration strategy, and always intended to implement it and blame the Republicans, knowing full well the MSM would play their role in 'the big lie' and never once suspecting Bob Woodward wouldn't.
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| | | 1084 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 14:06
|
Enemies list? Such a clownish analysis. It doesn't even rise to a high enough level to call it a dishonest analogy.
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| | |
| | | 1086 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 15:26
|
Eric Cantor admits, he and Paul Ryan are the cause of the sequestor
"Cantor confirmed what everyone who isnt a Republican or Bob Woodward already knew. Republicans wanted a deal solely on their terms. House Republicans are directly responsible for the sequester, because they are the ones who walked away from the Grand Bargain. It has long been reported that Boehner wanted to do the deal, but he backed out at the last moment. Ryan and Cantor were always the prime suspects in the killing of the best shot at a compromise, and now we know that the suspicions were accurate."
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| | | 1087 | Boldwin
ID: 252530 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 15:32
|
Tell it to Bob Woodward.
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| | | 1088 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 16:36
|
read the last name, in the 1st line, quoted, in 1086.
TY...you can now go away,
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| | |
| | | 1090 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 18:53
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the MSM would play their role in 'the big lie'
'The big lie" is that Today he[Woodward] finds himself on the White House enemies list.
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| | | 1092 | Boldwin
ID: 7228416 Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 17:29
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You'll never eat lunch in this town again, PV.
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| | | 1093 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 19:25
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see 1086
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| | | 1094 | Boldwin
ID: 7228416 Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 19:36
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see WH in #1091
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| | | 1095 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 20:06
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So according to your logic Boldwin...
A cook (the WH), puts a plate of feces (the sequestor) in front of you and you choose to eat it (Cantor/Ryan)
and you somehow conclude its all the cooks fault?
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| | | 1096 | Tree
ID: 20235418 Mon, Mar 04, 2013, 20:20
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well, we already know he doesn't accept personality responsibility for any of his woes. it's someone else's fault.
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| | | 1097 | Building 7
ID: 87592712 Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 13:32
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live filibuster
Rand Paul vs. Brennan nomination.
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| | | 1098 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 18:44
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As strange as it feels to say about any Republican obstruction these days, I don't disagree with him.
Throwback style helps.
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| | | 1100 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 06:57
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If he peed into a cup on the floor, would he lost or gained more support?
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| | | 1101 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 06:58
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A catheter would have been another possibility. Or Depends.
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| | | 1102 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 07:34
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The filibuster is over. Obama will be allowed to murder American citizens without due process.
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| | | 1103 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 07:36
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While I'm particularly peeved about domestic drones myself, that wasn't what this vote was.
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| | | 1104 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 07:41
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Agreed, separate issue. At least for now.
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| | | 1105 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 09:55
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Actually, apparently for Senator Paul that's exactly what it was about. The filibuster started just before noon on Wednesday, with Mr. Paul ostensibly objecting to Mr. Brennans nomination. But in fact, Mr. Pauls main concerns were those of the civil liberties and Constitutional rights, which he said are under attack by the administrations potential use of unmanned drone strikes on American citizens on United States soil. (By Mr. Pauls own admission, Mr. Brennan, who as the White House counterterrorism adviser was the chief architect of the largely clandestine drone program, served as a good proxy.)
What will be the standard for how we kill Americans in America? Mr. Paul asked at one point. Could political dissent be part of the standard for drone strikes?
Referring to Jane Fonda, who went to North Vietnam during the war there to publicly denounce the United Statess presence in the country, Mr. Paul added: Now, while Im not a great fan of Jane Fonda, Im really not so interested in putting her on a drone kill list either.
Repeatedly, Mr. Paul explained that his true goal was simply to get a response from the administration saying it would not use drone strikes to take out American citizens on United States soil. How disappointing. Shame on me for leaping into support for Paul before looking to see whether his filibuster of John Brennan was actually based on the merits of confirming John Brennan.
In my book this downgrades it from a noble old-school stand against an unscrupulous character to something much closer to a cheap publicity gimmick, even if I happen to agree with his pet issue of the moment.
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| | | 1106 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 10:08
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NewsCorp's WSJ and their reliably conservative editorial board disagree with Paul, btw. "Calm down, Senator," wrote the editors. "Mr. Holder is right, even if he doesn't explain the law very well. The U.S. government cannot randomly target American citizens on U.S. soil or anywhere else. What it can do under the laws of war is target an "enemy combatant" anywhere at anytime, including on U.S. soil. This includes a U.S. citizen who is also an enemy combatant." Not really shocking to see the WSJ side with the neocons. But......Paul's move found support in unlikely conservative quarters. The Heritage Foundation, where David Addington, the architect behind many of President George W. Bush's policies in the wake of 9/11 and a former aide to Dick Cheney, is a top official, said that it supported the filibuster.
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| | | 1107 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 10:34
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Balloon JuicePaul was talking about something thats a far-off hypothetical when the reality of killing American citizens with drones has already happened, and the Obama Administration has repeatedly dodged Congressional oversight of the drone program. Pauls stunt wasnt aimed at addressing either of those substantive issues. Instead, he was, as is typical of the true glibertarian, chasing a dark shadow in a corner while ignoring what was obvious to all in the bright sunshine. The reason is simple: the people who write Paul checks are fine with killing brown Muslim Americans in a far-off land, and are irrationally afraid of a black president sending a Hellfire missile down their chimney. [I'd say more a matter of protecting the marketability of that fear. -mith]
Paul chose to filibuster the nomination of the head of the CIA, even though he stated repeatedly that his concern was the killing of Americans on American soil (read that story linked above, or this one, because that was really his only concern). Would the CIA do that? Maybe, but even if you grant that the fantasy that the CIA would kill Americans on American soil (versus the reality of them having killed Americans overseas), the place to protest that is when the defense and intelligence appropriation bills come to the floor. At that point, Paul could filibuster until an amendment was added to the bill to compel the Administration to release more information on drone killings, at a minimum, or to require specific authorizations of force before drones are used in any foreign country, or any number of other limitations that tied drone use and disclosure to funding. But that would be possibly effective and certainly risky to Pauls electoral future, so instead he filibustered Brennan, an act that even Mitch McConnell briefly joined, simply because it was of a piece with the rest of the sand that McConnell likes to throw in the Senates gears. If Paul would threaten the drone program in a way that could actually change the drone program, then shit would get real on the Senate floor very quickly.
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| | | 1108 | Boldwin
ID: 11258617 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 10:50
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I am astonished how quickly Paul managed to get me to forgive that Hagel vote. I am getting more creeped out about the thot of Obama personally killing anyone, anywhere, anytime he feels like it, by the day.
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| | | 1109 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 11:00
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Really? You praise Paul's phony theatrics re: drones strikes in America but opposed his support for the anti-neocon and Republican SecDef nominee?
And for the record, where did you stand on the "ticking time bomb" scenerio regarding torture? As far as I'm concerned, that Bush administration argument justifying torture is no different from the Obama administration's position on a drone strike over American soil.
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| | | 1110 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 11:25
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It's not what he's for, it's what he against.
That should branded on the forehead of any and all patriotic, god-fearing tea partier.
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| | | 1111 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 11:49
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The man behind the american detainment centers in Iraq?
I reads like something out of movie, civilian reporting directly Petraeus, does whatever he wants to attempt to implement counter insurgence tactics. Torture may or may not be included.
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| | | 1112 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 15:01
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What a phony and a prick Paul is.Holders response to Paul was direct and to the point:Dear Senator Paul:
It has come to my attention that you have now asked an additional question: Does the President have the authority to use a weaponized drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on American soil? The answer to that question is no.
Sincerely, Eric H. Holder, Jr. Fox News Megyn Kelly read Holders letter to Sen. Paul on-air, as the Senator had yet to receive it. Hooray, Paul responded. For 13 hours yesterday we asked him that question and so there is a result and a victory under duress, and under public humiliation, the White House will respond and do the right thing. He then told CNNs Dana Bash that he was happy with the answer and would be dropping his hold on Brennans nomination. So that's it? He isn't the least bit concerned with what the administration actually said about targeting Americans at home with drone strikes, much less anything that had to do with Brennan's confirmation as CIA director.
And he claims victory.
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| | | 1113 | Tree
ID: 12228713 Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 15:26
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it was also good to see some of his fellow Republicans step up and tell him he was full of crap.
Both Sens. John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina also challenged members of their own party.
"To my Republican colleagues, I don't remember any of you coming down here suggesting that President Bush was going to kill anybody with a drone," Graham said in remarks on the Senate floor.
McCain scoffed at Paul's contention that the U.S. would have targeted actress Jane Fonda during her trip to Hanoi during the Vietnam War.
"I must say that the use of Jane Fonda's name does evoke certain memories with me, and I must say that she is not my favorite American, but I also believe that, as odious as it was, Ms. Fonda acted within her constitutional rights," said McCain, a prisoner of war in Vietnam for 5 years. "And to somehow say that someone who disagrees with American policy and even may demonstrate against it is somehow a member of an organization which makes that individual an enemy combatant is simply false. It is simply false."
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| | | 1114 | Boldwin
ID: 2924816 Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 22:33
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For the better part of 20 years now, every time McCain pushes the Republican-bashing button, he gets a food pellet from the press corps. At this point he probably couldnt stop if he wanted to. - Althouse commenter [I believe it was]
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| | | 1115 | Boldwin
ID: 31251917 Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 18:53
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The beginning of the end for Lindsay Graham's political future.
I remember that day well on twitter.
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| | | 1116 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Mon, Mar 11, 2013, 15:09
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Re:990-1001ish
Democracy Tested from the NYTimes.
Interesting article, and it mentions growing support in a number of states, of giving all of their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote of the national election.
As mentioned in the article, smaller states have a disproportional view in how are country governs. This was the intent of the founders, and I think it is a necessary artifact of our country. The issue that some states get significantly more money from federal aid as a result is a symptom of our flawed leaders political jockeying, not the design of our government.
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| | | 1117 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Mon, Mar 11, 2013, 15:31
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You gotta build a system assuming leaders will have numerous flaws, and make it robust to that certainty.
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| | | 1118 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Mar 11, 2013, 15:57
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The GOP is far more interested in being united than in being right. But if they want to jettison a guy who has clearly advanced the GOP (including Tea Party interests) as much as anyone into actual laws--hey, I'm fine with it.
If the Tea Party wants to take solid GOP seats and turn them into tossups, why not?
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| | | 1119 | Mith
ID: 412561115 Mon, Mar 11, 2013, 16:57
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This was the intent of the founders
Well it was the intent of the founders who supported it at the time. But at the time there were 13 states and commonwealths. I think handing extra influence to some less populated regions was quite a different thing in the late 18th century than it is in today's USA.
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| | | 1120 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 08:35
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Re: 1119
So the tyranny of the majority should win out?
I can get behind the idea, more so than the rights version of voting by congressional district, which is easily swayed by gerrymandering.
To compare the result of the last several elections by the votes cast and say who would have won, is not simply simplistic, but delusional. Since both proposals have their roots in only a few states really mattering in the election, to think that the voting in the other 40ish states would remain static is naive.
While it will never happen, using much more complicated voting systems would be my preferred solution. Something like YouTube - Alternative Vote or Mixed-Member Proportional seem like significant upgrades. We have the ability to easily implement either system with today's technology. But neither will happen due to the 2 party system being terrified of other choices and the general populations inability to understand and adapt. Look at the hysteria, misrepresentations, and lies that come when the voting process changes in a district, no matter what technology is being implemented. 95% of people probably couldn't explain the mechanics of how the votes are tabulated on any system, but the new system is never as good as the old system.
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| | | 1121 | Mith
ID: 412561115 Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 09:55
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Frick
I didn't offer a suggestion to replace the electoral college, just sympathized with others who dislike it. That said I definitely don't share your disdain for democracy (or tyranny of the majority, as you call it).
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| | | 1122 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 10:10
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But aren't democracy and tyranny of the majority essentially the same thing? Around 995, we were discussing the right's proposal to change how electoral college votes are distributed, and there are pros and cons to it. The article that I linked talking about using the general vote also has some pros and cons to it in my opinion.
I have mixed feelings about the electoral college, and I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I honestly would like to hear feedback from some others here on the board and would like to discuss the various alternatives.
I don't have a disdain for democracy, my point was that the founding fathers put in the structure of the senate so that small states would have a say in how how national government runs. Again, the money flows to essentially "buy" votes is a symptom of our current leaders (on both sides), rather than the structure of the government. Without that unequal representation in the Senate a handful of states would decide all national interests.
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| | | 1123 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 12:54
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But aren't democracy and tyranny of the majority essentially the same thing?
Only when the majority acts tyrannical toward the minority. I don't see that actually happening when the issue is the Electoral College. Maybe the opposite, in fact.
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| | | 1124 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 13:59
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How are you defining tyrannical? Oppressive or arbitrary?
From the CBO Share of Tax Liabilities Increases with Income Because average federal tax rates rise with income, the share of federal taxes paid by higher-income households exceeded their share of before-tax income, and the opposite was true for lower-income households.
In 2009, the shares of federal taxes paid by households in certain income quintiles were:
Lowest quintile: 0.3 percent Middle quintile: 9.4 percent Highest quintile: 67.9 percent
So, since the majority of people pay less then 15% of the taxes, would it be tyrannical of them to say that the 4th and 5th Quintiles should pay more in taxes?
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| | | 1126 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 14:27
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You know that the top 10% "earn" more than 50% of all income received, right? I would hope they pay more taxes. Sheesh.
There is an alternative they are welcome to choose where they would pay less taxes, but oddly, they never seem to choose it.
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| | | 1127 | chode
ID: 212581213 Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 14:58
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Ooh - is that the "love it or leave it" counter? That's always especially compelling.
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| | | 1128 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 15:17
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No, I was trying to mock those who claim that taxes will make people want to earn less. Pretty absurd.
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| | | 1129 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 17:06
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Re: 1126
Do you have a source to back that up?
According the US Census as of 2011, the five quintiles percentage of aggregate income by households were:
3.2% 8.4% 14.3% 23.0% 51.1%
To be fair, the top 5% earned 22.3%, so yes. The rich are making an ever larger share of all income.
Re: 1125
I didn't opine on if it was fair, but would you consider it tyrannical if the lower 50% voted for higher and higher taxes on the top 10%
I didn't see the tax numbers for the 2nd and 4th quintiles, but I'll estimate that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd quintiles (first 60%) pay 15% of the taxes. The top 40% pay 85% of the taxes. I agree that those who make the most should pay more, but were do you cross the line from reasonable to arbitrary or tyrannical? 85.1%? 86%? 99.9%?
To go back even further, why are we ok with a law that allocates electoral college votes to the national vote winner? To go to crazy scenario land, if a candidate didn't get a single vote in a state, yet could still receive the votes from that state.
I look at both the Republican's and Democrat's proposals as ways to try and solidify their power, under the guise of best interest of the citizens. As I said, I can see the pros and cons to both proposals. The fact remains that both proposals are simply to strengthen their power of their respective party.
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| | | 1130 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 17:09
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I would consider it tyrannical if the speculative tax rates were, in fact, so high as to be tyranny. Going back to the Clinton tax rates for a small percentage of just the wealthy fails that test, IMO.
But our recent history is such that the wealthy need not fear such blowback as having to pay slightly higher tax rates.
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| | | 1131 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Wed, Mar 13, 2013, 01:44
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1126 - you are right, it's only 48 or so percent, including capital gains. I suspect your numbers don't include capital gains, which wouldn't be appropriate, given we are comparing them to the percentage of taxes paid, which do include capital gains taxes.
Except even excluding Capital gains, your numbers look low...
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| | | 1133 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 13:54
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Boehner and Ryan both slip up, and admit the truth
America owes this debt of gratitude to Boehner after he finally came clean on yesterdays edition of ABCs This Week and admitted that we do not have an immediate debt crisis. (His admission was followed up by Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan, who quickly echoed much the same sentiment on CBS Face the Nation ).
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| | | 1134 | Boldwin
ID: 21227188 Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 13:59
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It's not immediate until the dollar stops being the reserve currency or investors stop buying T-bills.
But when it goes immediate it will go brick wall immediate.
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| | | 1135 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 14:29
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Attendee at CPAC discussion on race asks what Frederick Douglasss former slave master had to be sorry for: For giving him food and shelter?It seems to be that youre reaching out to voters, in the method and program that youre offering us, at the expense of young white Southern males like myself my demographic, 30-year-old Scott Terry of North Carolina said during a question and answer session during a discussion called, Trump The Race Card: Are You Sick And Tired Of Being Called A Racist When You Know Youre Not One?
He went on to say that as a student of literature, hes come to love my people and my culture.
I feel like my people, my demographic, are being systematically disenfranchised, he added.
My problem is: Why cant we be more like Booker T. Washington Republicans, and his famous statement: Lets be unified like the hand but separate like the fingers, he said.
Presenter K. Carl Smith, of Frederick Douglass Republicans, started to answer by mentioning a letter that Douglass had sent to his former slave master, forgiving him for all the wrongs he had done to him.
Terry then followed up with a reply that dwarfed his previous statements in terms of outrageousness: For giving him food and shelter? From the department of credit where it's due, kudos to Glenn Beck's The Blaze for being the only conservative outlet I could find with the balls to report/confront this and the GOP's continuing problems with dealing with the racists in their ranks.
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| | | 1136 | Boldwin
ID: 21227188 Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 16:09
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It is a complete waste of time talking about race.
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| | | 1137 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 16:13
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For the GOP its clearly much worse than that.
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| | | 1138 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 20:31
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The GOP has given up trying to appeal to white males, and has hunkered down in the Deep South, around 1959 or so.
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| | | 1139 | Boldwin
ID: 11261819 Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 01:46
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#1137-#1138
In your minds, it will always be, no matter what evidence or lack of evidence. It is a self-perpetuating fire burning in your minds, which is why it is pointless to discuss. It is the excuse that allows you to cloak yourselves in undeserved moral superiority, and the imagined virtue that makes up for all the virtues you dumped when you signed on the 'anything goes' liberal dotted line.
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| | | 1140 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 06:48
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Hahaha
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| | | 1141 | Tree
ID: 0271015 Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 08:50
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It is the excuse that allows you to cloak yourselves in undeserved moral superiority, and the imagined virtue that makes up for all the virtues you dumped...
this is perhaps the most ironic post in the history of these boards.
were you looking in the mirror when you posted this?
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| | | 1142 | Boldwin
ID: 11261819 Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 10:50
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Since liberals are self-loathing racists it is indeed ironic that they should bring up mirrors.
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| | | 1143 | Boldwin
ID: 11261819 Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 10:52
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What a feeling of kinship they must experience when they see pictures of Shia marching down the streets on holiday flagellating themselves.
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| | | 1144 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 10:54
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And this conservatives like eating babies with a spicy relish, it's no wonder they act like they have constant indigestion.
Way to raise the level of discourse.
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| | | 1145 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 13:47
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As a partisan, this would be one of my favorite things ever. But as an American and a human being, I can't really get past how sickening and depressing I find these people.A panel [at CPAC 2013] hosted by Breitbart.com known as "The Uninvited" Panel (Because even the regular crackpot Republicans didn't want them there) had quite a moment when Orly Taitz wanted to discuss Obama's citizenship. "Creeping Sharia" Islamaphobe Pamela Geller wasn't about to have any of it, after all, she was there to discuss the threat of Creeping Sharia. (Oddly, many of the people raising the alarm about Sharia share the anti-homosexual, misogynist, religiously intolerant attitudes of Sharia.)
Orly Taitz, better known as the "Birther Queen," was rebuked by blogger Pamela Geller during Saturday's panel, introduced by Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) as the world experts on global jihad.
Geller snapped at Taitz after she asked multiple questions about President Barack Obama's birth certificate.
I think theres enough substance on this panel, I mean how many topics can you handle, Geller said, Inappropriate. really.
Taitz gathered up her things in a huff, perhaps to go in search of more like-minded individuals.
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| | |
| | | 1147 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 08:24
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I forge a birth certificate for him.
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| | |
| | | 1149 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Mar 24, 2013, 18:35
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now they've gone and done it
The paranoia that Fox News created is turning against them, as tea party activists are boycotting the network for being too far left.
A group of tea party activists who are upset over Fox News for, in their view not investigating Benghazi enough and supporting immigration reform, are boycotting the network.
Those damn liberals at Fox.......
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| | | 1153 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 09:03
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It's in your mind tree.
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| | | 1154 | Tree
ID: 0271015 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 09:14
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must be.
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| | |
| | | 1156 | Boldwin
ID: 48234293 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 11:03
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Sarge #1149
There is absolutely a large market share just waiting there for a more conservative audience.
Fox was/is not birther friendly.
The Roger Ailes/Karl Rove vehicle is only conservative friendly when viewed in comparison to NBC/CBS/ABC/CNN.
Host Shepherd can barely contain his derision for conservatives and the Tea Party.
The second largest shareholder of Newscorp is the same Saudi, Al-Waleed bin Talal who financed Obama's career. There have been noticable cases of story spiking as a result. I don't see a marriage between conservatives and Al-Waleed bin Talal as sustainable in the longrun.
I demand the conservative alternative steals Megan Kelly away from them when they pull the rest of their viewers.
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| | | 1157 | Tree
ID: 26213299 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 11:07
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There is absolutely a large market share just waiting there for a more conservative audience.
yes. this large market share is evidenced by the rapidly rising Tea Party.
oh no, wait. they're already on the wrong side of the bell curve. that market share you mention is shrinking rapidly.
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| | | 1158 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 11:20
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Al-Waleed bin Talal who financed Obama's career
It's astonishing how many times you've been challenged on this claim, failed to provide anything more than a few weak and pathetic quotes, yet still present it as if it's an undeniable fact. This really belongs in the "Making A Mockery of Conservatism" thread.
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| | | 1159 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 11:35
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demand the conservative alternative steals Megan Kelly away
Is she even a conservative? Is the standard that moderates and bubbleheads are OK to deliver your news if you like their legs enough?
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| | | 1160 | Tree
ID: 26213299 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 12:10
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you'd think he'd at least spell her name right, but facts never mattered much to Baldwin.
imho, she had one of the best lines of Campaign 2012, after Fox News had called the race for Obama and Rove protested.
she responded with: "Is this just math that you do as a Republican to make yourself feel better? Or is this real?"
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| | | 1161 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 12:11
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She's got some conservative cred, but her stance on same-sex marriage (among others) won't allow her to stay long in the crucible of the tea party.
It is like a law getting rid of ugly people. Pretty soon the ones that are left will have a segment uglier than the rest, who will have to gotten rid of. And so on, until there are only two left. And then one will have to off the other.
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| | | 1162 | Boldwin
ID: 48234293 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 12:44
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PV
We've got incontrovertable proof that Obama's father-in-law challenged the Saudis to finance the education and careers of angry young black radicals.
We've got video of Percy Sutton [Malcom X's lawyer] admitting that Al Mansour [Prince Talib's Lawyer] requested him to lobby for Obama's Harvard advancement.
Obama's Father-in-law's plan worked undeniably.
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| | | 1163 | Tree
ID: 442482911 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 12:55
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We've got video of Percy Sutton [Malcom X's lawyer] admitting that Al Mansour [Prince Talib's Lawyer] requested him to lobby for Obama's Harvard advancement.
we also know that Sutton was ailing at the time of the video.
we also know that previously, Sutton had said he did not know Obama.
we also know Mansour said the following: "The scenario as it related to me did not happen," he said.
"Im sure hes written a letter [to someone else] and he got it confused somehow," he said of Sutton, adding that he'd never asked Sutton to write a letter to any university supporting anyone's admission.
Mansour said he admires Obama, but first heard of him when a relative sent him a copy of Obama's 2004 convention speech.
"I've never met him," he said.
because an ill, old man says something that you want do desperately to believe, because pretty much nothing you ever post here is accurate or honest, you're willing to take that despite things he said previous in life when healthier, despite things said by other parties involved.
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| | | 1164 | Boldwin
ID: 48234293 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 13:01
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It's just incredible that a former terrorist, Bill Ayers, A lawyer for Malcom X and a lawyer for Prince Talib all would deny their admissions that they produced Obama. Why oh why would they tailor their story? Just can't think of a reason they would change a word, hedge, take back anything. Nope.
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| | | 1165 | Tree
ID: 442482911 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 13:21
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just because you aren't an honest person yourself, doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't either.
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| | | 1166 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 21:33
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re 1156;
Fox was/is not birther friendly.
Neither is anyone or anything else, with more intelligence than a golfball.
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| | | 1167 | Boldwin
ID: 48234293 Sat, Mar 30, 2013, 00:17
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I am quite demonstrably smarter than a golfball, and you are quite demonstrably trolling, and yet somehow I am the guy getting persecuted by the censors.
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| | | 1168 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 29542105 Sat, Mar 30, 2013, 07:05
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the censors are blind to liberal posts. its like watching a third grade play ground with no teachers around. what a shame.
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| | | 1169 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Sat, Mar 30, 2013, 08:42
|
We've got incontrovertable proof that Obama's father-in-law challenged the Saudis to finance the education and careers of angry young black radicals.
We've got video of Percy Sutton [Malcom X's lawyer] admitting that Al Mansour [Prince Talib's Lawyer] requested him to lobby for Obama's Harvard advancement.
Obama's Father-in-law's plan worked undeniably.
How ironic using the word undeniably
Nothing you've presented, and certainly nothing in the three sentences above provides a platform of truth that Al-Waleed bin Talal financed Obama's career. It's a fun little game for you to speculate beyond what little information there is at your disposal, but that doesn't give you license to continually advance said speculation as if it's a fact. It does, however, show the lengths that angry old white radicals will go in their quest to divide America.
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| | | 1170 | Boldwin
ID: 22210309 Sat, Mar 30, 2013, 10:14
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Well let's use an analogy to get past your political interest in keeping this fact secret.
Imagine you are in a jury. You see a newspaper article I wrote suggesting, 'why doesn't gang leader X shoot PV between the eyes?'. Then you see the gang leader's enforcer get up and testify 'Yup, that's exactly what we did.'
Are you gonna let defense atty PV and PD and Tree tell you I only wrote it in a newspaper so it doesn't really count, I didn't really mean it, I didn't have anything to do with it even if I suggested it, and it was an old newspaper article?
Are you going to let them tell you that even tho the gangleader's right hand man admitted it in colorful personal detail, he was old and sick, he took it back, and so what, people say things?
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| | | 1171 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Sat, Mar 30, 2013, 11:24
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Imagine I'm in a jury.
Claim - Al-Waleed bin Talal financed Obama's career.
Evidence - We've got video of Percy Sutton [Malcom X's lawyer] admitting that Al Mansour [Prince Talib's Lawyer] requested him to lobby for Obama's Harvard advancement.
Cross examination - Where is the paper trail? A career does not consist of a request for a letter of recommendation to Harvard. Where are the cancelled checks, the money transfers, the political contributions, any evidence at all besides hearsay and speculation? There's not even enough dots to connect to even get as far as getting before a jury.
Case dismissed.
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| | | 1172 | Boldwin
ID: 22210309 Sat, Mar 30, 2013, 12:12
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You've got more evidence than you could ever hope for. Pretending it's not so as long as 'paid for by islamists' isn't tattooed on his forehead is just head-in-sand.
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| | | 1173 | Tree
ID: 0271015 Sat, Mar 30, 2013, 12:48
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it must be awful to live in a world where lies, fear, and hate are your closest allies.
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| | | 1174 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Mar 30, 2013, 13:21
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Its all they've got. And it helps them be on the losing side to imagine a huge, money-filled conspiracy against them.
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| | | 1175 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 00:25
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if I had to chose between a golfball and a truther, as a debate partner...I'd take the golfball.
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| | | 1176 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 00:25
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(truther/birther...pretty much interchangeable)
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| | |
| | | 1178 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Mar 31, 2013, 23:17
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once again Tree....the GOP proves beyond a doubt, that accuracy and honesty, mean less than nothing to them.
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| | | 1179 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 00:18
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Art Linkletter and....Republicans say the darndest things
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| | |
| | | 1181 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 22:33
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The GOP isnt going to be "happy", until they dissolve these United States:
link
A bill filed by Republican lawmakers would allow the state to declare an official religion, in violation of the Establishment Clause of the US Bill of Rights, and seeks to nullify any federal ruling against Christian prayer by public bodies in North Carolina.
...
House Bill 494, filed by Republican Rowan County Reps. Harry Warren and Carl Ford, would refuse to acknowledge the force of any judicial ruling on prayer in North Carolina, or indeed on any Constitutional topic:
"Whereas, the Constitution of the United States does not grant the federal government and does not grant the federal courts the power to determine what is or is not constitutional; therefore, by virtue of the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the power to determine constitutionality and the proper interpretation and proper application of the Constitution is reserved to the states and to the people; and
"Whereas, each state in the union is sovereign and may independently determine how that state may make laws respecting an establishment of religion;"
The Tenth Amendment argument, also known as "nullification," has been tried unsuccessfully by states for more than a century to defy everything from the Emancipation Proclamation of the Civil War to President Obama's health care reforms to gun control.
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| | | 1182 | Tree
ID: 35343313 Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 14:43
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definitely ridiculous.
by all means, lets ignore the Constitution, and institute a state religion.
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| | |
| | | 1184 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 02:00
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go ahead, defend this action by the Michigan Gov;
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| | | 1185 | Tree
ID: 1830412 Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 13:31
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this is what i have discussed on these boards in the past - that i am much more fearful of the far right in this country, than i am of and Islamist in this country.
Fifteen right-wing extremists were indicted in 2012 -- including six who were involved in a militia in Georgia that accumulated weapons, plotted attacks on the government and murdered a young U.S. Army soldier and his 17-year-old girlfriend...
...By comparison, in 2012, only six people who subscribed to al Qaeda's ideology were indicted on terrorism-related charges in the United States...
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| | |
| | | 1188 | Tree
ID: 0271015 Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 16:44
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i'm always bummed out when i arrive too late to see a deleted Baldwin post. i'm optimistic it was some sort of bigoted hate in response to 1185.
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| | | 1189 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 17:10
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Like a cleared accident scene...
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| | | 1190 | Boldwin
ID: 28358512 Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 19:58
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I deleted it. Someone here was bound to misinterpret it.
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| | | 1191 | Tree
ID: 0271015 Sat, Apr 06, 2013, 02:49
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Someone here was bound to misinterpret it.
almost certainly because you said something offensive.
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| | | 1192 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Apr 06, 2013, 19:45
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Attleboro, Massachusetts...where poor kids get their school lunches, taken away from them and watch them get thrown out.
link
This is what happens, when EVERYTHING is left upto profit motives.
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| | | 1193 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Apr 06, 2013, 20:04
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ROFLMFAO
The GOP, proposed what essentially became "Obamacare", in opposition to the Clintons efforts to install a true single payer system. Now, in opposition of their own idea, they seem to be considering, installing the Clintons single payer initiative.....
link
This shit SERIOUSLY, could not be made up.
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| | | 1194 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Apr 07, 2013, 10:45
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OH courts jail the poor, w/o legal representation, MA school, takes food AWAY from poor kids, and throws it in the trash... MT Representative, tells his tenants, if they are single parents, they need to die sooner....
where does the madness end?
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| | |
| | | 1196 | Tree
ID: 223401013 Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 14:41
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"I am not a prejudiced person," Gile told the Salina Journal. "I have built Habitat homes for colored people.
them colored people.
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| | | 1197 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Apr 10, 2013, 14:46
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He said he's even knows one who he considers a friend.
Well in that case...
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| | |
| | | 1200 | Boldwin
ID: 1836156 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 07:44
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You could donate both kidneys and they'd still call you a racist.
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| | | 1201 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 11:21
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again and again....
A Republican New Hampshire lawmaker referred to women as "v@ginas" in an email to colleagues on the official legislative electronic mailing list earlier this month, drawing outrage from his own party.
why the FRUCK does our censor stop the word v@gina??? are you serious?!?! i can't even post a damned link with the word v@gina in it. ridiculous.
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| | | 1202 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 11:42
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Considering the potential content in some types of spam attacks, it's an understandable restriction.
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| | | 1203 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 11:58
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It does remind me of the (temporary) restriction, on the old AOL, of the word "breast."
In response, angry breast cancer survivor groups suggested that they rename their groups "Hooter Cancer Survivors" in protest.
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| | |
| | | 1205 | Boldwin
ID: 463291715 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 19:33
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One shudders to think what Tree wanted to say in post#60 but was prevented.
It does not dishonor a man that which is heaped upon him, but rather what dishonors a man is what proceeds from his mouth.
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| | |
| | | 1207 | Tree
ID: 2510132311 Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 17:06
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I was referring to the circle jerk going on between you and Jag.
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| | | 1208 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:55
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less Govt my ass
Bad news, Facebook users. U.S. employers may soon be able to require employees to fork over their social media passwords.
A last-minute amendment to the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act -- known as CISPA -- banning such a practice was blocked by members of the U.S. House of Representatives, despite the passage of the broad cybersecurity bill overall.
The provision, proposed by Rep. Ed Perlmutter (D-Co.), was voted down 224-189, with Republicans constituting the majority.
As the GOP. sells out our rights to privacy on our social media sights, to corporate America.
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| | |
| | | 1210 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 11:44
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#1208: Just to be clear, employers already can ask you for your passwords, etc. And you are not required to give them that information. What the bill would have done is prevent employers from asking.
You are not required, at any point, to give out your passwords.
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| | |
| | | 1212 | Boldwin
ID: 25332317 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 16:10
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Weren't you the believer in gray areas and nuance? And your opponents were these Manichean troglodites who could only have things one color?
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| | | 1213 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 16:27
|
Yes. My opinion is that there are gray areas.
However you'll be hard pressed to find any such gray areas explained by the senator from Kentucky during his 13 hour theatrical stunt before congress.I rise today to begin to filibuster John Brennan's nomination for the CIA I will speak until I can no longer speak. I will speak as long as it takes, until the alarm is sounded from coast to coast that our Constitution is important, that your rights to trial by jury are precious, that no American should be killed by a drone on American soil without first being charged with a crime, without first being found to be guilty by a court. That Americans could be killed in a cafe in San Francisco or in a restaurant in Houston or at their home in bowling green, Kentucky, is an abomination. It is something that should not and cannot be tolerated in our country. I don't rise to oppose John Brennan's nomination simply for the person. I rise today for the principle. The principle is one that as Americans we have fought long and hard for and to give up on that principle, to give up on the bill of rights, to give up on the Fifth Amendment protection that says that no person shall be held without due process, that no person shall be held for a capital offense without being indicted.
The law's an amazingly important thing, an amazingly important protection. And for us to give up on it so easily really doesn't speak well of what our founding fathers fought for, what generation after generation of American soldiers have fought for, what soldiers are fighting for today when they go overseas to fight wars for us. It doesn't speak well of what we're doing here to protect the freedom at home when our soldiers are abroad fighting for us, that we say that our freedom's not precious enough for one person to come down and say, enough's enough, Mr. President. Come clean, come forward and say you will not kill Americans on American soil. The oath of office of the President says that he will, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. He raises his hand, his right hand, puts his left hand on the bible, and he says, "i will." The President doesn't say, "I intend to if it's convenient." "I intend to, unless circumstances dictate otherwise." The President says, "I will defend the Constitution, I will protect the Constitution." There isn't room for equivocation here, Mr. President.
You wer will you kill Americans on American soil? Answer the question. Our laws forbid the CIA From doinghat. It should have been an easy question. The 1947 national security act says the CIA Doesn't operate in our country. We have the FBI. We have rules. We have separated powers to protect your rights. That's what government was organized to do. That's what the Constitution was put in place to do. To protect your rights. Yes, obviously there are gray areas. Where was Paul's gray area on filibuster day.
Ask any honest libertarian what they think of Rand Paul's contortions yesterday.
Ask any real libertarian from the state Rand Paul represents what they think of Rand Paul.
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| | | 1214 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 16:40
|
For the record, here's the "libertarian" [hahaha] Paul from this week:Ive never argued against any technology being used when you have an imminent threat, an active crime going on. If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and fifty dollars in cash, I dont care if a drone kills him or a policeman kills him. So if I understand correctly, there is no gray area for American terror suspects, but there is one for unconvicted liquor store robbers?
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| | | 1215 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 20:45
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re 1210...No PD, just to be clear..CISPA gives employers the power to DEMAND (as in require) that you give them your usernames and passwords.
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| | | 1216 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 21:04
|
"Those who would trade liberty for security, deserve neither liberty nor security".
A quote oft attributed to Ben Franklin, (mistakenly) AND, taken ENTIRELY out of context
You see, in 1755, Ben Franklin as a Pennsylvania Assemblyman, was trying to tax William Penns holdings. Mr Penn did not like this, and Assemblyman Franklin penned a letter in which he made a statement similar to the above. HOWEVER, Franklin was taking the position that it was the LIBERTY of being taxed to provide for the common defense which was necessary and Penns PERSONAL FINANCIAL SECURITY was irrelevant. IOW, when the rightwing quotes this statement? They have NO CLUE, what they are really saying.
And before you suggest that context does not matter. Let us look at the following statement: "*insert your name* sucks their strawberry malt from DQ through a straw." Now, just take the first two words, and stop there. Is context still irrelevant?
What Ben Franklin really said
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| | | 1217 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 21:34
|
#1215: No. They already have the right to demand them. And have. The change in the law removed the ability of the government to prevent them from continuing to make that demand.
Workers in at-will states are already faced with such demands. It neither began, nor ended, with that law.
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| | |
| | | 1219 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 22:36
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I don't think you understand the nature of "at-will" employment states, sarge.
Let's just leave it at that--you're just going to get increasingly pissy about this and teaching you to teach yourself on this tiny issue isn't worth the time.
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| | | 1220 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 22:38
|
I do understand at will PD. YOU, do not understand this law. Under CISPA, if passed, you do NOT have the right to refuse to give the info. Not only do you stand to lose your job, but you stand to be charged with a crime. YOU LOSE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO.
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| | | 1221 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 22:44
|
ACLU on CISPA
link
This PD, is NOT "a little thing". Read the damn links I've given you. Why would an amendment to ban employers ability to demand the data, be necessary if your view is correct? Even then, that amendment was defeated. What by definition, does that say?
No, this is not some "little thing". This is suspension of the 4th Amendment, by non law enforcement agencies, without a warrant or cause.
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| | | 1222 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, May 01, 2013, 15:43
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Shoring up the GOP bubble.
When outside reality intrudes, close your doors and windows...
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| | | 1223 | Tree
ID: 4424115 Wed, May 01, 2013, 16:24
|
i am in love with the news that Ted Cruz is being considered as a serious candidate for a 2016 presidential run.
i wonder how close to a Reagan-Mondale sweep a Hilary-Cruz race would be.
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| | |
| | | 1225 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, May 13, 2013, 22:20
|
Florida is a place were the GOP could possibly mount some inroads into their Hispanic support deficit. Except that their FL RNC Hispanic Outreach Director just switched parties.
It is pretty bad when even the people who most believe in your party wash their hands of it.
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| | |
| | | 1228 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, May 23, 2013, 10:45
|
I don't know that this is a partisan issue, but I have to give a shout out to the House GOP for resurrecting the Stolen Valor Act (which SCOTUS overturned a year or so ago) and making a more narrowly-focused law, to try to curb people from falsely claiming military awards that they never earned.
Meantime, the military has a public website of the Top 3 award winners:
http://valor.defense.gov/
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| | |
| | | 1231 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, May 29, 2013, 13:28
|
How far have the posts been moved? As the Republican Partys range of acceptable policies has narrowed, the Democratic Partys range has expanded. Stimulus based entirely on tax cuts? Its not their preference, but theyll take it. Market-based approaches to environmental regulation? Sure, why not. Capping the employer-based exclusion for health care? Of course. Hundreds of billions of dollars in entitlement cuts to help reduce the deficit? Uh-huh. If you imagine a policy spectrum that that goes from 1-10 in which 1 is the most liberal policy, 10 is the most conservative policy, and 5 is that middle zone that used to hold both moderate Democrats and Republicans, the basic shape of American politics today is that the Obama administration can and will get Democrats to agree to anything ranging from 1 to 7.5 and Republicans will reject anything thats not an 8, 9, or 10. The result, as Ive written before, is that President Obamas record makes him look like a moderate Republicans from the late-90s.
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| | | 1232 | Tree
ID: 204302911 Wed, May 29, 2013, 13:49
|
well this is grand.
Schlafly Encourages GOP to Ignore Latinos, Focus on White Turnout
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| | |
| | | 1235 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 15:29
|
I knew. But I always thought the route was not through meditation but instead through the yoga pants. Evil. At least for happily married men.
And Mark Driscoll is an idiot.
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| | | 1236 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 16:04
|
Dammit, I should have known you'd have known. I've got to remember this, what with running for office again.
No doubt the demon possession questions are just waiting out there for the gotcha moment to spring--I'd better get my yoga-related response down.
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| | |
| | | 1238 | Boldwin
ID: 31541109 Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 12:44
|
The problem is that your idea of modern is the USSR 1950.
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| | | 1239 | Boldwin
ID: 31541109 Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 12:48
|
Liked this quote tho..."By contrast, the Obama data-mining operation was revolutionary."
We're only just now finding out.
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| | | 1240 | Tree
ID: 265361012 Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 13:37
|
The problem is that your idea of modern is the USSR 1950.
says the guy who yearns to go back to the USA 1950.
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| | | 1241 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 14:12
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Because that is "modern" for today's GOP.
They can't move past what they consider to be their best days. In fact, they continually try to re-invent reality in order to re-live their greatest hits. All the time.
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| | | 1242 | Tree
ID: 85211013 Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 14:23
|
An Anonymous Twitter User Is Beating A GOP Congressman In A Senate Race Poll
The more ominous sign for Republicans is that the PPP poll also found that U.S. Rep. Gary Peters, a Democrat, would lead eight potential Republican candidates. No Republican comes within 5 points of Peters. Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land trails him 41-36, and Amash trails Peters by 12 points.
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| | |
| | | 1245 | Boldwin
ID: 25111019 Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 21:05
|
He is exactly right. As I have been saying myself.
As all you voter fraud supporters, aiders and abetters know all too well.
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| | | 1246 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 18:42
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Silver is going to be so embarrassed.
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| | | 1247 | Boldwin
ID: 365471111 Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 21:25
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Silver love love loves the big greedy blue blobs getting 105% blue voting. Why would he find it embarrassing?
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| | | 1248 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 07:19
|
Do you just refuse to recognize truth, or are you truly unable to recognize it?
The allegations werent for 105% voter turn-out, they were for 147%. Which was explained when it was detailed that it was 147% voter turnout, but 147% card turn-in, and the voting ballot consisted of 2 or more cards. (Depending on the state. jurisdiction, etc) So each single voter, would have turned in 2 cards, and in some places, 3 cards. That, was the length of their ballot.
Now, for the love of the God you claim to respect, ...quit....spreading...malicious...lies.
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| | | 1249 | Boldwin
ID: 125451212 Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 13:57
|
You go on spreading the viscous lie that there are only 16 cases of vote fraud in the whole country when we all know full well the vote fraud you are shielding is endemic and rampant.
The only reason your backers in this forum are silent is because the vote fraud favors them and they couldn't get what they want without it.
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| | | 1250 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 14:02
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Sarge: He lives (and refuses to leave) his alternate reality. Not worth it.
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| | | 1251 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 18:20
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Wisconsin, killing Democracy, one day at a time:
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| | | 1252 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 18:23
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B...voter ID fraud, had only a very limited nr pf cases over a 10 year time span. So called Voter Registration fraud, was much more rampant, though frequently consisted simply of erroneous voter rolls.
Keep spreading these lies, and then explain to God why you chose to deliberately do so. I honestly pity you.
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| | | 1253 | Boldwin
ID: 125451212 Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 18:26
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If you had anything worthwhile to sell, you wouldn't need to sell it to the dead and the imaginary.
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| | | 1254 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 18:36
|
sarge, before you respond:
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| | | 1255 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 19:14
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lmao TY PD. I needed that laugh.
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| | | 1256 | biliruben
ID: 28420307 Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 14:51
|
Asian-Americans are the canaries.
The impulse of Republican politicians such as Jeb Bush to try rescue the party from the barbarians now running it is understandable. I might even find it laudable if the goals of the quasi-civilized Republicans were less thoroughly plutocratic.
And Bush is surely right to stress that the GOPs catastrophic 2012 performance among Asian-Americans is a very, very bad prognostic; if the Republicans cant win a highly family-oriented, educated, and affluent demographic that also happens to be rapidly growing in its share of the electorate, theyre going to be a world of hurt. (Note that the heavily Democratic tilt of the Asian vote stronger than the Democratic tilt of the Latino vote last year destroys the moocher theory so beloved of Mitt Romney and his fans.) ----- When Caroline Bingley proposes that a ball featuring conversation rather than dancing would be a more rational entertainment, her brother Charles replies Much more rational, my dear Caroline, I dare say, but it would not be near so much like a ball. A Republican Party that could win Asian-American votes would be far more electable, but it would be far less like the Republican Party we know and hate.
I only get the Bingley quote because of my wife's obsession. I swear.
Happy Father's Day all you dads!
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| | |
| | |
| | | 1259 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 16:07
|
House Farm Bill goes down to a stunning defeat.
The GOP seems stunned that only 24 Dems voted for a package after they added "work for food stamps" rules in at the last minute, after cutting $20 billion from the food stamp program.
I guess the Dems should be grateful that the GOP didn't go with its first plan, the "dance for food" rule change.
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| | | 1260 | Boldwin
ID: 2555216 Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 10:52
|
Good. Wonderful. We don't need a Farm Bill.
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| | |
| | | 1262 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 16:55
|
levels of food stamp use pre economic crash, are irrelevant to the current time.
Heartless, cruel, self serving, egocentric...yet you still CLAIM to be Christian?
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| | | 1263 | Boldwin
ID: 135162210 Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 19:00
|
Hey, I'm not the one who needs a permanent underclass to get his way.
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| | | 1264 | Tree
ID: 32552418 Mon, Jun 24, 2013, 19:05
|
we will take this state back, but for now, the GOP Idiocy is still in charge. Republicans used their majority to cut short debate and give preliminary approval early Monday to some of the toughest abortion restrictions in the country as time was running out on the Texas Legislature's special session.
The bill's sponsor stopped answering questions about her bill after the first two hours after she got into trouble denying Democratic amendments. When Rep. Senfronia Thompson, D-Houston, called for an exemption for women who were victims of rape and incest, Rep. Jody Laubenberg, R-Parker, explained why she felt it was unnecessary.
"In the emergency room they have what's called rape kits where a woman can get cleaned out," she said, comparing the procedure to an abortion. "The woman had five months to make that decision, at this point we are looking at a baby that is very far along in its development."
Her apparent confusion about "rape kits" a phrase generally used to describe the equipment used by medical personnel during forensic examinations to gather physical evidence following allegations of rape or sexual assault sparked widespread ridicule on social media sites. Laubenberg, who has difficulty debating bills, then simply rejected all proposed changes to her bill without speaking until the end of the debate.
what. an. idiot. seriously. i mean, good lord, where do these nuts get their information!?!?
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| | | 1265 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 01:32
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TX will be blue again, before the 2024 election.
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| | | 1266 | Tree
ID: 25412510 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 11:41
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i've said it will be a toss up state by 2020.
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| | | 1267 | Boldwin
ID: 125452510 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 11:49
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Sure, add 50 million Mexicans to the voter rolls by then. Figures. Thanks Rubio.
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| | | 1268 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 12:27
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No B...Perry is doing everything possible, to hand TX to the Democrats.
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| | | 1269 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 15:40
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add 50 million Mexicans to the voter rolls
Why do I get the feeling when you say "Mexicans," you mean any American of Hispanic/Latino heritage?
It's kind of funny when one realizes that the two largest states in the continental US, Texas and California, were, at one time, part of Mexico. Yet, to some, even after almost two centuries of being Americans, they're still Mexicans. On second thought, it isn't funny at all, it's pathetic.
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| | | 1270 | Boldwin
ID: 505472513 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 15:44
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It's pathetic that your loyalties are to Aztln and not to your own country.
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| | | 1271 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 15:45
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I was at a conference in Texas and a speaker made a comment about a 7th generation Texan. The next speaker, hispanic, start by saying that he was an 8th generation Texan. I got a kick out of that. I wonder how many of us could claim to be Americans for 8 generations. I believe that my kids are 8th generation Americans, but does it really matter? As you said, for many, it depends on the color of your skin.
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| | | 1272 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 15:52
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My grandkids, are 6th generation American. (Your post, made my ponder that question Frick) I think there are few of us, without Mexican or Native American blood in our veins, who could claim 8 generations.
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| | | 1273 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 15:57
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It's pathetic that your loyalties are to Aztln and not to your own country.
That sentence simply displays a high level of ignorance and further drags the level of this forum into the gutter. How can you not be ashamed for suggesting you're more American than me or any other citizen. What makes you you feel so entitled?
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| | | 1274 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 16:05
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My family is from Belgium, and came to the New World with the Dutch as one of the first settlers in this country. This was 150 years or so before this was even a country.
[And, as sarge and others can attest, I'm one of the whitest guys you'll meet]
Everyone comes from somewhere else. Someone in our past moved their home in the hopes of having a better life for us. It is a shtty move for someone to try to close the door behind themselves after it was held open for them by someone before.
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| | | 1275 | Boldwin
ID: 505472513 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 16:22
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suggesting you're more American than me
I said no such thing. I'm an alien resident living in a strange land.
You however are actively working against your own country on behalf of citizens of another country who openly call Texas [etc] Aztlan and who openly work to overthrow American sovereignty in those areas.
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| | | 1276 | Tree
ID: 25412510 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 16:25
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1270 is as disgusting as a sentiment as has been put on this board in quite some time. ignorance and offensiveness knows no bounds with this one.
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| | | 1277 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 18:13
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You however are actively working against your own country on behalf of citizens of another country
You're deluded. And a liar.
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| | | 1278 | Boldwin
ID: 505472513 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 18:16
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Stop repeating their propaganda.
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| | | 1279 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 18:17
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I do like how he tries to balance the outsider thing (a requirement for self-martyrs) with a paternalistic "I know what is best for your country" that was perfected by the neo-cons a decade ago.
In or out, I say.
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| | | 1280 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 18:30
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Boldwin You're the propagandist. You blatantly accused me of something that is a complete and total lie. You haven't a shred of evidence that I'm working actively against my own country on behalf of citizens of another country. Not a shred. Saying something so preposterous only opens the door for you to be scolded in the harshest terms allowable in this forum. So, I reiterate, it's a lie. It's not even a decent lie with some kind of basis. It's simply typing something erroneous for the sake of typing something erroneous. You're so absorbed in your delusions of forum superstardom that you seem to think you should have impunity when slandering. You don't.
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| | | 1281 | Tree
ID: 25412510 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 18:34
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You however are actively working against your own country on behalf of citizens of another country who openly call Texas [etc] Aztlan and who openly work to overthrow American sovereignty in those areas.
this is positively idiotic and absolutely ill-informed.
it's another disgusting accusation that has no basis in reality. then again, what else do we expect from someone who is bigoted against brown people (hmmm...based in reality? or ill-informed? goose, meet gander.)
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| | | 1282 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 18:48
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The NFL(San Diego, San Francisco), NBA(San Antonio,Los Angeles), MLB(San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco), even the NHL(Los Angeles, San Jose)are all actively working against their own country by using names of cities that used to be part of Mexico!!!
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| | | 1283 | Boldwin
ID: 505472513 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 19:40
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PV
#1269
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| | | 1284 | Boldwin
ID: 505472513 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 19:45
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If they assimilate they're Americans, no hyphens, just Americans.
If they or YOU think Mexico holds claim to those lands and those hearts...that's a national security issue.
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| | | 1285 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 20:15
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If they or YOU think Mexico holds claim to those lands and those hearts...that's a national security issue.
What do you mean IF?
You've already stated my loyalties are to Aztln and not to your own country and I'm actively working against your own country on behalf of citizens of another country who openly call Texas [etc] Aztlan and who openly work to overthrow American sovereignty in those areas.
Do you even know what you write? Do you even care?
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| | | 1286 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 20:38
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No. And no.
Remember: "Assimilation" means "Act white."
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| | | 1287 | Boldwin
ID: 505472513 Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 23:29
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What do you mean, What do you mean IF??
It just doesn't leap into an american's mind, 'Hey, ya know these used to be Mexico's lands?'
It is ever present in a La Raza supporter's mind tho.
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| | | 1288 | Mith
ID: 412561115 Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 09:21
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You sure do care an awful lot about these man made boundaries and (even moreso, apparently) what other people think about them, Christian.
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| | | 1289 | Mith
ID: 412561115 Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 09:28
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I mean it just seems strange - for an alien in a strange land who's creator orders him to never judge others - to tell a citizen of this strange place that he is "pathetic" because of what he thinks about his country's borders.
But who am I to judge?
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| | | 1290 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 09:50
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It just doesn't leap into an american's mind, 'Hey, ya know these used to be Mexico's lands?'
It is ever present in a La Raza supporter's mind tho.
It's comical the lengths you'll go to justify your slanderous lies. That you would compound your original accusation of me actively working against my own country and loyalty to Aztlan before my own country, I'm now not an American and a La Raza supporter.
What a complete lack of moral fiber.
I grew up in Southern California. Since the mid 50s, I went to school with boys and girls with names like Martinez, Garcia, Hernandez, etc. They were no more Mexican than the kids named Schmidt were German or Larson Danish. They were and are Americans, and never once in my 62 years have I ever had a conversation with my Hispanic/Latino friends and associates regarding La Raza or Aztlan. Support for Aztlan, a return of former Mexican lands to Mexico, is so miniscule as to be completely irrelevant, even among proponents of La Raza, which, like the NAACP, is an umbrella Hispanic rights group.
This really simple.
When someone says,
Sure, add 50 million Mexicans to the voter rolls
it's incumbent to point out that there are Mexicans(citizens of Mexico) and there are Americans with Hispanic surnames, millions of whom can trace their American citizenship back to when Texas, California, New Mexico and Arizona were part of Mexico. There are lots of Americans with Hispanic surnames who aren't Mexican at all, but Cuban, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Central and South American.
The bottom line is that it's impossible to have an adult conversation about the issue when the conversation is dominated by insistence that I'm thirsting for a return of Texas and California to Mexico. It belongs in the Making A Mockery of Conservatism thread.
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| | | 1291 | Tree
ID: 564211423 Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 11:01
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It just doesn't leap into an american's mind, 'Hey, ya know these used to be Mexico's lands?'
maybe not in Peoria and whatever white haven you come from, but in Texas, it sure does.
we are taught in school that Texas used to be part of Mexico. our biggest heroes in this state are heroes, because of the Texas War of Independence. some of our biggest icons - such as The Alamo - are icons because of the Texas War of Independence.
it is a daily reminder here that Texas, used to be Mexico's lands.
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| | | 1292 | Tree
ID: 564211423 Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 11:01
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and much like PV, i had similar circumstances. i grew up with people named Hernandez and Flores (my first crush was a Flores) and Benevides and Cervantez and Ortiz and never was there any discussion of the nonsense you speak.
they were no different to me than my friends named Muller or Worthington or Hackworth or Custer or Tinsley or Berkowitz.
your world is backwards, and it is imaginary.
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| | | 1296 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 20:21
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I believe it was also something like the 230th prisoner to die while on Perry's watch.
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| | | 1297 | Boldwin
ID: 435462720 Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 22:05
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Really funny stuff. I went to college with a Puerto Rican roommate [and diet], closest friends were Cubans, for a spell even had a moslem roommate from Yugoslavia [yes that was what it was back then]. My best friend and ~business partner after college [besides my wife] was a Puerto Rican.
Which only comfirms every libs prejudices about conservatives...raaaaacists!
Go to any La Raza hangout on the internet and hear them laffing in American faces about how inevitable their 'Reconquista' is and how there is 'nothing you can do about it' no matter who you vote for, the fix is in.
I never once referred to assimilated Mexicans as a problem. I referred only to the 50 million brand new and unlikely to assimilate ones. Spare us PV's La Raza boilerplate propaganda and their racist ideology...let's not all keep beating La Raza's the two largest states in the continental US, Texas and California, were, at one time, part of Mexico' drum.
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| | | 1298 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 00:54
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Yeah, and Paula Dean ate dinner with some black folks once too. Guess what? She's still a racist.
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| | | 1299 | Boldwin
ID: 435462720 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 01:17
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Your views are so poorly tethered to reality they would evaporate if you dared to admit to yourself that the reality based weren't all racists and haters.
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| | | 1300 | Boldwin
ID: 435462720 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 01:20
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Which reminds me of the latest liberal meme...'Just because Clarence Thomas ate dinner with a few black people doesn't mean he's not racist'.
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| | | 1301 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 01:48
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your post sent me scrambling B:
Prof Robert Reich, posted this on his FB today:
"Bill Clinton, Hillary Rodham, Clarence Thomas, and I all took a course at Yale Law School together called "Civil and Political Rights," taught by Professor Thomas Emerson. Bill was not the most reliable or disciplined attendee (he was often off working on some election), but when he was there he answered every question correctly. Hillary was always an active and enthusiastic participant. I tried as best I could. Clarence, however, sat in the back of the classroom the whole semester with a scowl on his face, never raising his hand, never answering a question, never offering a single word. That was over forty years ago but it seems like only yesterday."
just sayin....
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| | | 1302 | Boldwin
ID: 435462720 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 02:06
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Well of course. He didn't agree with the 'critical theory' anti-american spin they put on the law.
This btw puts me in the mind of the newest liberal meme 'just because Clarence Thomas is on the Supreme Court doesn't mean he knows the law'.
Also the 'When a liberal makes outrageous, slanderous and demeaning charges against black people it doesn't make them racist.
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| | | 1303 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 02:11
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anti-american spin? Granting equal rights to all citizens, is anti-american?
Do the world a favor...fall off it.
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| | | 1304 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 02:23
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Don't you know the newer GOP theory, sarge? They are very, very concerned that someone might get some benefit, somewhere, to which they are not entitled.
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| | | 1305 | Boldwin
ID: 435462720 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 05:30
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Projection. It's killing you that Clarence got a job and didn't thank you for it. If only that Harvard professor had flunked Clarence for holding originalist views you could have kept them all on the liberal plantation begging for handouts. If you let one escape they might all want to get free. Have to set an example.
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| | | 1306 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 05:38
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originalist? You mean crackpot whackjob asshat POS prick?
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| | | 1307 | Boldwin
ID: 435462720 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 08:56
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Stop with the projection already!
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| | | 1308 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 12:12
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PV's La Raza boilerplate propaganda
Do you think that repeating your lies somehow gives it credibility? A moral and ethical person would simply either admit they were over the top with the initial accusation, or just be silent and hope it passes with minimal readership.
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| | | 1309 | Tree
ID: 564211423 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 18:42
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Go to any La Raza hangout on the internet
you might as well be saying "go to any white power hangout on the internet", because, duh, obviously those who believe in "La Raza" will discuss their belief in the inevitability of their 'Reconquista'.
it's like going to a radical Christian website and being shocked they think we are upon endtimes and that Jews are going to hell.
btw, i'm curious, which La Raza websites do YOU frequent?
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| | | 1310 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jun 28, 2013, 18:53
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in the famous words of Sarah Palin..."all of them"
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| | | 1312 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 14:35
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Expansion Of The Genetic Surveillance State: Taking The Blood Of Babies Born To Mississippi Teens
Any time a teen mom doesnt know who the father is, or wont say who the father is, or says the father is over 21, a hospital is required to take a blood sample from the babys umbilical cord and put it on ice. DNA will then be extracted from that blood and used to hunt down the (presumably) older men who had sex with the young women. They can be charged with statutory rape if they are more than 3 years older than the under-16 moms. The state hopes this will discourage cradle-robbers/cradle-makers in the future.
So, absent a criminal complaint; the state of Mississippi is now assuming EVERY pregnant teen is the victim of rape, and they are gathering DNA evidence with which to prosecute.
The GOP, edging closer and closer to Totalitarianism, every day.
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| | | 1313 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 14:48
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I read the article, but did not see the GOP reference. Unless you were referring to Scalia's dissent. He seems to be against this type of activity, as you apparently are.
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| | | 1314 | Perm Dude
ID: 24625213 Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 15:04
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I agree with bibA--there is no GOP reference. Perhaps you mean, sarge, that the traditional law-and-order aspect of the GOP continues to march in ways such as that law?
Probably worth noting that Scalia dissented from the SCOTUS decision which expanded genetic testing rules for law enforcement. So that article is hardly a broad indictment of the Right.
The law itself will probably be overturned on any number of reasons, patient privacy being one.
111 babies were born to girls 14 and under in Mississippi. The law appears to be well-intentioned but a big overreach.
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| | | 1315 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 15:05
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Mississippi, has a GOP led Legislature and a GOP Gov.
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| | | 1316 | Perm Dude
ID: 24625213 Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 15:15
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Right. But this doesn't make such a thing a GOP directive. They've also got a declaration about Flag Day--surely the fact that the GOP legislature passed it, and the GOP governor signed it, doesn't make patriot feelings about the flag in MS a GOP-owned concern?
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| | | 1317 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 15:17
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OK..A GOP legislature passes a law, where 2 states (also GOP led), have seen courts effectively over turn it. The GOP Gov signs the law; and you fail to see this as a GOP incursion?
Sorry, but it aint my day for hand holding through the park.
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| | | 1318 | Perm Dude
ID: 24625213 Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 15:43
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I see the point you want to make, but you just aren't making it.
There is something called causation (which you think you are showing) and correlation (which is the series of things you are demonstrating as the "proof.").
There is also something called "hand holding" and other thing called "proving your point." In this case, you are doing neither.
:)
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| | | 1319 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 16:33
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A little digging shows that the current Mississippi House has a 63-58 Republican majority (with 1 vacant). The Bill (I believe it was House Bill 151, but not sure since none of the stories actually mentions it) passed 99-18 with 4 abstentions. So, how exactly does that make the blame solely on the GOP?
The Bill is an amendment to an existing law, the mandatory reporting of sex crimes against a minor. In Mississippi the age of consent is 16, with no exceptions for close-in-age. So, if a mother is under 16, a crime was committed according to the law.
I agree with PD in 1314, that this seems like overreach for a relatively small problem.
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| | | 1321 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 10:53
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Hunger Games, USA
Something terrible has happened to the soul of the Republican Party. Weve gone beyond bad economic doctrine. Weve even gone beyond selfishness and special interests. At this point were talking about a state of mind that takes positive glee in inflicting further suffering on the already miserable.
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| | | 1322 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jul 17, 2013, 10:10
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When a GOP candidate doesnt like the poll results, quote your own fabricated poll results
This morning, Public Policy Polling released a survey of the statewide races in Virginia that has Republicans losing all three of 'em. Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli trails Democrat Terry McAuliffe by 4 points; the infamous E.W. Jackson is down 7 in the race for lieutenant governor. Only the race for attorney general is truly tight.
Cuccinelli's campaign has responded, with admirable lack of self-awareness, by pretending that PPP doesn't know what it's doing.
According to the latest RRR Poll, Ken Cuccinelli leads his opponent Terry McAuliffe by 13.3 points, up from 12 points from RRRs inaugural Poll released May 30th... There is no margin of error, since RRR only produces error free surveys and unlike PPP or DDD we poll those actually voting (as we think thats important).
Ha ha! There is no RRR pollthe campaign is joking that PPP is obviously biased and flawed and that by listing the Libertarian candidate in its poll (he gets 7 percent) it's skewing the results.
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| | | 1324 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813 Sun, Jul 21, 2013, 13:07
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Scalia: Liberal judicial relativism brought about Nazi Germany.
Would love to read a full transcript.
Scalia makes the common error of assuming both that the "spirit of the age" is morally vacuous, and that the previous age upon which which he would have our laws be solely put was a moral paradise from which no evil can flow.
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| | | 1325 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Jul 21, 2013, 21:36
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just how ULTRA-conservative must one be, to see Nazism as liberal?
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| | | 1326 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813 Sun, Jul 21, 2013, 21:53
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I will withhold judgement until I see a full transcript. As far as I know, Scalia was limiting his comments to judicial relativism.
That said, I do know some people who believe it is, because the Nazi's called themselves the National Socialist party. Seriously.
This is a group which invented the term RINO, trying to hold an entire party to be Nazis because of the name and not what they actually did, and believed.
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| | | 1327 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 00:51
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Would those be the same folks, who seem to think Marxist, Leninist, Communist and Socialist; are equal and interchangeable terms?
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| | | 1328 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813 Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 01:40
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Perhaps. They do think they are a lot smarter than their words actually make them sound.
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| | | 1333 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Sat, Aug 03, 2013, 01:50
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Good article, and pretty much what I believe.
I sold most of my physical gold, and starting double-shorting at 1900. That was just pure luck at guessing the top, but now I have to figure out what the bottom is. I figure around 650, but it may take a while to get there.
My dad told me to cover at 1200, at a solid double on my "investment". I probably should have, and bought back if it climbed back to 1400 or 1500 before what I think is it's inevitable drop back to triple digits. I'm not that savvy to hit the psychology of delusion that perfectly however. I'll take my triple in a year or two and walk away.
Or maybe buy back some physical gold at 650 and wait for the next waive of gold-bugism.
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| | | 1334 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Sat, Aug 03, 2013, 14:30
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Yeah, who needs the Voting Rights Act anymore, I mean, Southern states like North Carolina are way beyond their racist past and wouldn't think of passing racially discriminatory voting laws, right?
Last week, the North Carolina legislature passed the countrys worst voter suppression law after only three days of debate. Rick Hasen of Election Law Blog called it the most sweeping anti-voter law in at least decades. The bill mandates strict voter ID to cast a ballot (no student IDs, no public employee IDs, etc.), even though 318,000 registered voters lack the narrow forms of acceptable ID according to the states own numbers and there have been no recorded prosecutions of voter impersonation in the past decade. The bill cuts the number of early voting days by a week, even though 56 percent of North Carolinians voted early in 2012. The bill eliminates same-day voter registration during the early voting period, even though 96,000 people used it during the general election in 2012 and states that have adopted the convenient reform have the highest voter turnout in the country. African-Americans are 23 percent of registered voters in the state, but made up 28 percent of early voters in 2012, 33 percent of those who used same-day registration and 34 percent of those without state-issued ID.
And thats just the start of it. In short, the bill eliminates practically everything that encourages people to vote in North Carolina, replaced by unnecessary and burdensome new restrictions. At the same time, the bill expands the influence of unregulated corporate influence in state elections. Just what our democracy needs more money and less voting! neither you nor I should forget that the madness of the GOP is the central issue of our time.
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| | | 1335 | Boldwin
ID: 1971841 Sun, Aug 04, 2013, 02:18
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No, the central political issue of our time is the critical mass gathered by organized marxism in this country.
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| | | 1336 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Sun, Aug 04, 2013, 14:13
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you don't even know the difference between Marxism and compassion.
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| | | 1338 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 14:03
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I felt that the Republicans were not going to agree to national debates in 2016 unless they were moderated by a conservative editorialist/commentator like Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity. The RNC gets backlash for even agreeing to have someone left of the tea party moderate.
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| | | 1339 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813 Mon, Aug 05, 2013, 14:59
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Call their bluff!
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| | | 1340 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 13:07
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Robert Pittenger, GOP Lawmaker, Outrages Tea Party By Saying No To Government Shutdown
"Real quick, easy question, this is what the tea party wants to know: Will you vote with [Sen.] Mike Lee ... to defund Obamacare, yes or no?" one man asked Pittenger.
"Do you want the thoughtful answer?" Pittenger responded, before conceding, "No."
"If every Republican votes against it, it does not get funded. That's a fact," the man snapped back.
No, that is not a fact. To defund the PACA, requires that both the House AND the Senate, vote to do so. Then, it requires that President Obama, sign into law, an act which would undo his signature accomplishment. That obviously, is not going to happen. The sheer arrogance and utter stupidity of the Tea Party, goes beyond description.
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| | | 1341 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813 Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 13:32
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Math challenged dude.
Of course, for the math challenged, "compromise" is a four letter word.
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| | | 1342 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 14:01
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At this point, don't most of the Tea Party believe in Intelligent Design? Are you surprised they don't understand simpler concepts?
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| | | 1343 | Tree
ID: 30734814 Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 15:34
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don't most of the Tea Party believe in Intelligent Design..
putting "intelligent" and "tea party" together is a big of an oxymoron as there ever has been.
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| | | 1344 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813 Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 16:09
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Ken Cuccinelli's sodomy problem.
There are some good points in this article, and some sloppy writing in other parts.
What I found interesting is that, if successful, Ken Cuccinelli's campaign to reinstate sodomy laws will actually have the effect of legally discouraging teens from engaging in non-vag sex. I'm sure that's not what is intended, but the law of unintended consequences will be coming up again...
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| | | 1345 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813 Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 16:10
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Wrote "non-vag" because, apparently, "vag*nal" is a banned word. Who knew?
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| | | 1346 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 17:07
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I feel slightly dumber after reading the article. I agree that Cuccinelli is an idiot of the first degree, but the article seems to confuse anal and oral sex. That could be the result of the AG trying to use an sodomy law to apply to oral sex, but isn't really clear.
Regardless, people like Cuccinelli are hypocrits of the first order. The Tea Party mantra of stay out of my private life, unless I don't like what you do, then the government should step in, should go step into a fire and stay there awhile.
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| | | 1347 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 22:17
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Cuccinelli Frick, wants to ban both anal and oral sex.
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| | | 1348 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813 Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 22:43
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It isn't the article that confuses it, Frick. The VA sodomy law bans *both*.
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| | | 1349 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 22:47
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The Gestapo Police State, alive and well in Wisconsin
The Associated Press reported that capitol police told observers, including state Rep. Sondy Pope (D), that they would be arrested if they continued to watch the protests on the rotunda floor.
However, recently enacted protest permit requirements don't specify if police can arrest observers who are not actively participating in the protest.
"I have a duty to observe what is happening to my constituents who are expressing their discontent," Pope told Isthmus, Madison's alternative weekly newspaper. "How can I be arrested for that?"
Whats the charge? "Improperly observing the Police making a mockery of the Bill of Rights"?
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| | | 1350 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 00:29
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GOP stupidity, knows no bounds
WASHINGTON -- As Congress braces for another debt-ceiling fight, Rep. Ted Yoho (R-Fla.) told constituents the nation's credit rating would actually be better if the United States defaulted on its debt.
Speaking at a town hall Monday in Orange Park, Fla., Yoho, who recently made news for calling an Obamacare tanning tax "racist" and expressing support for the birther movement, was asked about his position on raising the nation's borrowing limit. He said he would not vote in favor of a debt ceiling increase, a response that was met with applause.
The math challenged, are also common sense challenged, are also integrity challenged, are also IQ challenged, are also...
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| | | 1351 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 10:39
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This seems like a case of the sky is falling problem washington has been claiming that sky will fall if X happens then X happens and the sky does not fall after a while people stop believing the sky will fall.
The truth of the matter is we will default on our debt at some point, maybe this year maybe in 50 or 100 but it will happen, this is what history tells us will happen. Is defaulting this year a good idea, probably not but maybe the idea of actually facing reality might be.
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| | | 1352 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 10:49
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What history is that? Why do we need to default on our debt? There is simply no reason that is true, when you have your own currency.
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| | | 1353 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 11:13
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History tells us that we will eventually default on our debt, so might as well do it now?
Even though we have never defaulted on our debt...
You've posted some head scratchers before, but this one is really out there.
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| | | 1354 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 12:33
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1349 - I read the article, but failed to see what the police arresting observers at a protest has to do with the GOP, unless you are hinting that the police are a GOP tool?
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| | | 1355 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 13:09
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Have you not been observing the goings on of the Capital Police in Wisconsin over the past year and a half? If not, that isn't my fault.
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| | | 1356 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 14:33
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re 1353: by history I mean history of all other #1 powers in the world eventually pressures them to default on their debts and inflating away their debts are functionally the same as default.
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| | | 1357 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 15:02
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1355 - You got me there. The goings on of the Wisconsin Capitol Police have not been making news here in the hinterlands of California.
So I take it they have been representing the GOP in some kind of strong arm way? Honestly don't know - what has been going on there?
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| | | 1358 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 15:21
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Dates back to when Walker was busting the municipal/teachers unions, the recall and the Capital Police have had every appearance of being his personal army there in the capital. Continued throughout the recall process and now as the protests against the GOP legislative efforts has continued and the arresting of the protestors hasnt stopped it, now they want to arrest those who stop and observe the protestors.
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| | | 1359 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813 Thu, Aug 15, 2013, 14:19
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Best phrase of the year: "Political porno."
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| | | 1363 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 15:39
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War on the Core
...But more and more, I think Gov. Bobby Jindal, Louisianas Republican rising star, had it right when he said his party was in danger of becoming simply the stupid party. ... But todays Republican Party lives in terror of its so-called base, the very loud, often paranoid, if-that-Kenyan-socialist-in-the-White-House-is-for-it-Im-against-it crowd. In April the Republican National Committee surrendered to the fringe and urged states to renounce Common Core."
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| | | 1364 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 15:57
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Well, two negatives do apparently make a positive. Common Core has no scientific basis for actually working and is mainly a way to show that public schools in a terrible light so more money can be funneled to charter schools.
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| | | 1365 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 17:41
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I'm trying to keep an open mind on the core, but I don't really see a lot of evidence of benefit, and it really seems to have a huge impact on resources, as it begins to be implemented in my boys school. Tea party rulez.
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| | | 1366 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 18:28
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1364 and 1365, sort of prove this educators point, The problem with national testing is that the conservatives hate national and the liberals hate testing.
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| | | 1367 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 09:48
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Well, Obama has been pushing Race to the Top pretty hard, which requires a lot of testing for students. And doesn't include funding to accomplish the testing.
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| | | 1369 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 13:45
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To paraphrase something I read recently:
It's not that republicans are stupid, it's just that stupid people find a lot to like with the Republican Party.
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| | | 1370 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Wed, Aug 21, 2013, 18:56
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Kleiman nails it.
Outcomes-based school management is essential. But that doesnt mean anyone knows, yet, how to actually do it right, at a national scale, in the face of the actual institutions in place. It sounds as if the Common Core is a big step up on No Child Left Behind, but that doesnt mean that, on balance, it will do more good than harm.
Note that this is fully consistent with Ed Kilgores point that the Republican Party is increasingly dominated by lunatics, whose opposition to the Common Core has nothing to do with the serious flaws amounting, in the case of the Rupert Murdoch/E.D. Hirsch/Joel Klein Core Knowledge ripoff in New York State, to something close to corruption that Ravitch identifies.
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| | | 1372 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 13:43
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Replies we'd love to see, but won't:
Dear Marco: GFY. Cordially, Barack.
Comment of the week from that article PD.
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| | | 1373 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Fri, Sep 06, 2013, 13:35
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Colorado lawmaker mocks poverty hearing with silent protest by bringing fried chicken
Colorado state Rep. Lori Saine (R) reportedly brought fried chicken to a hearing on poverty as a protest after a fellow lawmaker was criticized last month for blaming the diet of African-Americans and Hispanics for racial disparities in the poverty rate.
At the legislatures Economic Opportunity Poverty Reduction Task Force last month, Sen. Vicki Marble (R) had pointed to barbecue and chicken as part of the problem behind higher poverty rates for minorities.
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| | | 1375 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Sat, Sep 14, 2013, 11:34
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This is an idiotic statement, of course:
"If the administration is not going to be forthcoming with information about the IRS, then it may be necessary to defund part of the executive branch until such time as they become truthful,"
Note, however, the bolded word that wasn't part of the title. This is an important word in that wacko's argument.
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| | | 1376 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 14:25
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link
"Cruz is the leader of a secret cabal of leftists that are seeking control of the conservative movement," quipped one senior House Republican leadership source. "Their aim is to force the party to take on suicidal missions to destroy the movement from within."
Cruz? A LEFTIST? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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| | | 1377 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 14:32
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They are pissed because he basically forced the House GOP to link the "Defund Obamacare" cause with the raising of the debt limit, but has essentially thrown in the towel about it in the Senate. They feel like he's thrown them under the bus.
And it *is* a suicide mission for the GOP.
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| | | 1378 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 14:42
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It absolutely is a suicide move for the GOP. Last time they did this, they lost the House right after. Guess what happens in 2014?
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| | | 1379 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 15:23
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They are addicted to crises, and a war mentality. Comes from the apocalyptic nature of their particular religious practices, I think.
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| | | 1380 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 15:28
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They certainly do seem to be bent on creating crisis, where none needs to exist.
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| | | 1383 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 17:07
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I *just* posted this on my FB account...
OK, the House GOP is going to pass a bill they KNOW, will die in the Senate, and then intend to say "Hey, it wasn't US who caused the shutdown, it was the Senate".
If I drive my car through a school zone at 95mph at 3 pm, it is wrong of me to blame the child for stepping in front of the car when I hit them. If I act in such a reckless manner, I need to "own" that recklessness. Same....exact....thing....applies here, to the House GOP.
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| | | 1384 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 17:29
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Tom DeLays 2010 conviction...over-turned.
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| | | 1385 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 17:55
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"I'm stuck here making $172,000 year".....poor bastard
NRO's Jonathan Strong reports that Gingrey said that staff may not make a lot of money on Capitol Hill, but in a few years they can just go to K Street and make $500,000 a year. Meanwhile Im stuck here making $172,000.
During the meeting, Republicans discussed a proposal to exempt lawmakers and their staff from a new law requiring them to participate in federal health-care exchanges.
Gingrey and other lawmakers expressed concern about the financial toll the new law would take on them on their staffs.
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| | | 1386 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Thu, Sep 26, 2013, 20:48
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House GOP reveals its list of demands in order to pay their own bills:
The bill, obtained by the National Review, tacks on items including a one-year delay of Obamacare; tax reform in the image of Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI); approval of the Keystone pipeline; expanded offshore drilling and other pro-oil and coal energy reforms; increases in military spending coupled with deeper cuts to domestic programs; repealing a fund in the financial regulatory reform bill; means testing for Medicare; repealing the Obamacare prevention and public health fund and medical malpractice reform.
"And before I eat my vegetables, I want my own car! And a new phone! And no bedtime!"
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| | | 1387 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Sep 26, 2013, 21:10
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Imma steal that whole post. lmao
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| | | 1388 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Thu, Sep 26, 2013, 22:49
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:)
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| | | 1389 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Sep 26, 2013, 23:02
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that last sentence...I can just picture Boehner, Cantor and Ryan all three in unison, in 5 yr old voices and tantrums......
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| | | 1391 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 19:11
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Cruz, Paul, Ryan...all 3 count themselves as GOP contenders. Not one of them has a shot in hell, in a national election. Not without SERIOUS anti-voter laws being implemented first.
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| | | 1393 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Sat, Sep 28, 2013, 13:28
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This is what happens, when you dont check your sources/story
During his 21-hour talkfest on the Senate floor earlier this week, Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) went through a litany of examples that he said highlighted the abject failures of President Barack Obama's policies.
One of them involved the case of John Connelly, a Rutgers student who found himself in debt, without a permanent job, and forced to sleep on his friend's couch. His story was one that was all too common in the age of Obama, Cruz concluded.
Well, it turns out that Connelly isn't the biggest fan of Cruz. What's more, he is actually a beneficiary of the very health care law that Cruz was protesting during his speech. And in an appearance on MSNBC Friday morning, Connelly explained just how ironic it was that the senator would use his story to bludgeon the president and the Affordable Care Act.
"A friend of mine called me the next morning as I was on the way to an optometrist appointment .... [and said], 'While Ted Cruz was talking about why the ACA's bad, he mentioned your name.' And I said, 'Well, that's funny. I'm heading to an appointment I can only go to because of Obamacare.'"
Cruz had apparently gotten Connelly's story from a recent Wall Street Journal article that focused primarily on student debt, not on health care reform.
(link includes video of MSNBC appearance by Connelly.)
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| | | 1394 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Sun, Sep 29, 2013, 00:06
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Southern states moving to restrict voting
"As for voter fraud, he said: "I haven't seen any evidence from any other parties that it's not a problem. Until we investigate and process the names of all people on the voting list, how do we know?""
I haven't seen any evidence from any parties that we HAVENT been invaded by "The Body Snatchers". Until we take DNA samples of everyone on the planet, how do we know?
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| | | 1397 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Mon, Sep 30, 2013, 13:50
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This is a great piece in The American Conservative about the state of things.
When I think of the Republican Party, I dont think of principled conservative legislators who are men and women of vision strategy. I think of ideologues who are prepared to wreck things to get their way. They have confused prudence the queen of virtues, and the cardinal virtue of conservative politics with weakness.
Yes.
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| | | 1399 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 18:23
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It all boils down to one simple thing...Boehners ego.
If he were more interested in leading and governing, than in the title of SPEAKER, he'd bring forward the CR passed by the Senate. BUT, he wants to remain SPEAKER more than he wants to lead, and to stay SPEAKER he needs the Tea Party vote in the House.
He had his chance to write his page in history, as a LEADER. He chose to let that moment pass him by.
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| | | 1400 | Pancho Villa
ID: 40610217 Thu, Oct 03, 2013, 09:33
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Good analysis from conservative-leaning Bloomberg.
Republicans have never grappled honestly with the law, resorting to hyperbolic denunciations without ever offering a viable alternative for public consideration. When the House majority leader calls a law to extend health insurance an "atrocity," its hard to ignore the signs of panic.
The shutdown, and the timid obstinacy that induced it, are not in the national interest. It should be even more apparent that it doesnt serve the greater good of the Republican Party.
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| | | 1401 | biliruben
ID: 208491113 Thu, Oct 03, 2013, 15:37
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8th-grade civics teachers air-dropped into congress.
WASHINGTONWith lawmakers still at an impasse over increasing the debt ceiling, a special team of 40 eighth-grade civics teachers was air-dropped into Washington earlier today in a last-ditch effort to teach congressional leaders how the governments legislative process works. We started them off with the basics, like the difference between a senator and a representative, and then moved on to more complex concepts, like what a resolution is, Bozeman, MT social studies teacher Heidi Rossmiller told reporters as all 535 members of Congress copied down the definition of checks and balances from a whiteboard in the House chamber. Its been a bit of an uphill battle, since most of them seemed to have no real sense of how or why a bill is passed, and Sen. [Harry] Reid [D-NV] had to come up to me during a break and ask, Ms. Rossmiller, what happens if Congress cant reach a compromise? But hopefully it will all start to sink in soon. At press time, an unruly House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) had noisily stormed out of a lecture on bipartisan cooperation, claiming it was too hard.
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| | | 1403 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Thu, Oct 03, 2013, 16:12
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Yup.
But according to Beck, the next step by Obama is opening fire.
I think, long before shooting started, a truly Marxist president would have shut up idiots like Beck. The proof that there is no real marxist president is the fact that Beck and others can continue to rant that Obama is one.
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| | | 1404 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Oct 03, 2013, 16:40
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I'm sure he's busy building imaginary ramparts where he and his flock will be safe in his imaginary Beckingrad.
I want some of the good stuff he's smoking.
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| | | 1405 | Tree
ID: 438482411 Thu, Oct 03, 2013, 22:12
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Conservatives are going nuts about this...
Government Shutdown: Obama Uses Own Money To Open Muslim Museum in Jackson, Mississippi
the minute i see that headline, my automatic presumption is that it's satire. i don't know how anyone can think otherwise.
sure enough, it is.
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| | | 1406 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 01:18
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It is frightening Tree, how gullible some reasonably large segments of the population, have allowed themselves to become. Entirely depending of course, on the political viewpoint being promoted/belittled.
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| | | 1407 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 14:37
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| | | 1408 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 16:31
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The House GOP is fracturing. Obama simply will not give in, and their entire strategy requires that to happen. They have no plan B.
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| | | 1409 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 18:06
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the stupid is strong in this one
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| | | 1410 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 21:09
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FOX calling out the GOP???????
...The resolution that is at the root of this crisis already establishes sequestration-level funding that President Obama and Senate Democrats have repeatedly said is unacceptably low but which they were willing to swallow in order to avoid a government shutdown.
That is the kind of compromise that, under normal circumstances, Republicans should celebrate. They got Democrats to accept a continuation of drastic, across-the-board spending cuts that are anathema to the president and his base. And yet members of the Tea Party, from Senator Ted Cruz to Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, have driven the Republican Party so far though the looking glass that even a compromise that so greatly favored their side has not been enough....
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| | | 1411 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 04:18
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GOP insider leaves the Republlican Party, "As of today, I am a Democrat"
I was a REAL Republican
Miller stated in one of his follow up e-mails. He says that he started with the party in 1976 partly because
Gerald Ford was publicly, pro ERA, pro Womens Rights, pro Gay Rights.
In his e-mail to Hock he said:
I am officially a democrat, as of today.
Miller appears to be frustrated by the Tea Party, whom he implies are at the heart of the problems that he is seeing within the GOP. Referring to them as
Liars, Cheats & Hypocrites (or HCL which is hydrochloride acid if I recall my high school chemistry class)
He goes on to say:
These Tea-party people are not Republicans. They are liars and cheats
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| | | 1412 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 52924613 Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 14:24
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good riddens
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| | | 1413 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 14:32
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lmao your side gets called out...AGAIN...and all you got is "good riddance"????? REALLY?
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| | | 1414 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 22:17
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legal definjition of Seditious Conspiracy.
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
Could someone please tell me why I should think the actions of J Boehner, T Cruz, M McConnell, Rand Paul, Eric Cantor, M Bachmann et al; do NOT fit that definition of felony offense?
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| | | 1416 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Mon, Oct 07, 2013, 12:16
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Lesson learned: No matter how much of a winger you are, there is always someone even more of a winger than you are.
Witness: WND: Obamacare means Genocide!
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| | | 1417 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Mon, Oct 07, 2013, 13:15
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? Is Mr Ellis Washington aware that Romneycare has yet to result in the systematic elimination of the peoples of Massachusetts?
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| | | 1423 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 10:15
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They could have negotiated a delay, I think, in conjunction with a willingness to make the law better rather than get rid of it. But they backed themselves into a corner with their base and now the public.
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| | | 1424 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 10:48
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They may have been able to, but not by waiting until Sep 25 to start trying.
No such thng as a debt ceiling.....so says a GOP Senator
OK, figuratively true, in that it always gets increased so in that sense it isn't *much* of a ceiling. But as he goes on, he enlightens us, as to the extent of his own ignorance.
Theres no such thing as a debt ceiling in this country because its never been not increased, and thats why were $17 trillion in debt. And I would dispel the rumor thats going around that you hear on every newscast that if we dont raise the debt ceiling, well default on our debt, we wont. Well continue to pay our interest, well continue to redeem bonds, and well issue new bonds to replace those.
These people seem to have forgotten, the interest on the debt is not our only recurring obligation.
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| | | 1425 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 10:50
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I've said elsewhere, and I'll say it again:
Congress passed into law that we spend $X, and the budget they passed anticipated $Y in revenues from taxes and other sources. And they passed another law saying we can borrow up to $Z.
So what happens when X > Y+Z? And why is this math Obama's fault?
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| | | 1426 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 11:03
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because
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| | | 1427 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Thu, Oct 10, 2013, 18:16
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William Buckley on Ayn Rand and Atlas Sgrugged
"Never before have I read a book in which there was such a total absence of goodness"...Whittaker Chambers review of Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged".
And THAT book, not the Bible, serves as Paul Ryan's framework. Are we still surprised by his total lack of empathy?
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| | | 1431 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923 Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 00:21
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| | | 1433 | Perm Dude
ID: 339541411 Mon, Oct 14, 2013, 12:54
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"Conservatives" calling cops protecting the White House "brownshirts" (among other names). Since when is yelling at cops protecting the President's house a conservative value?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7MBl8nzwitc
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| | | 1435 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Wed, Oct 16, 2013, 11:50
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The belly aching of a sore looser.
Edwin Encarnacion, whoops, I mean Erick the Red, is ticked off. I am tired of funding Republicans who campaign against Obamacare then refuse to fight. In his sick world, "fight" means "drive the country into the ground by defaulting on our obligations".
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| | | 1436 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Wed, Oct 16, 2013, 19:46
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After showing up to a gun fight with a popsicle stick ending with the preordained results, these morons are "looking forward to Round Two"?!!!?
"See, were going to start this all over again. Idiots, all of them.
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| | | 1437 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Wed, Oct 16, 2013, 20:24
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GOP ran into an unlikely buzzsaw, Harry Reid.
From the first time we talked about this, he said, We are not giving in, said Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, who is one of Mr. Reids top lieutenants. He had an instinctive understanding that this would work as long as Democrats didnt fall for the bait. We havent, and we wont. Mr. Reid rebuffed Mr. McConnell last week after the Republican leader called him and urged him to try to strike a compromise with Mr. Boehner. His firm answer was no. Though Mr. Reid did meet with Mr. Boehner, Mr. McConnell and Ms. Pelosi on Wednesday at the White House, he had initially persuaded the president not to hold a similar meeting last week because he was concerned it would appear too accommodating.
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| | | 1438 | Perm Dude
ID: 339541411 Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 10:31
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Steve-Lonegan swats his comforting wife's hand away in press conference after his defeat:
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| | | 1440 | Pancho Villa
ID: 40610217 Sat, Oct 19, 2013, 10:34
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And yet, when compared to Michelle Bachmann, Palin seems almost lucid.
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| | | 1441 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 17:43
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Sen Jim Inhofe (R-OK), telling a blatant lie
In a radio interview with WABC's Aaron Klein, Inhofe said his doctors discovered multiple blocked arteries during a colonoscopy and that he needed surgery immediately.
The senator said he was able to be treated right away because of his health care plan, but under a program like the Affordable Care Act, Inhofe said "with my age, that would have been about a six-month wait" because he did not have a heart attack.
BS....purse, unadulterated, bullshit. The PPACA, is an insurance clearing house. Think shopping center at the edge of town, where stores are invited to build, but agree to limit their gross margins.
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| | | 1442 | Pancho Villa
ID: 40610217 Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 12:33
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I put this here only because Sheldon Adelson is one of the GOP's largest financial contributors.
Bomb Iran
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| | | 1443 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Tue, Nov 26, 2013, 13:56
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The GOP continues its assault on the Constitution: House passes Bill which would impose a $5,000 fee to levy a complaint against actions occurring on public lands
House Resolution 1965, known as the Federal Land Jobs and Energy Security Act, passed the House on Wednesday. The bill contains a benefits package for oil companies seeking to lease land from the federal government.
Many of the provisions have come under fire for stifling free speech and being detrimental to the environment. The bill was sponsored by Representative Lamborn of Colorado and co-sponsored by Duncan of South Carolina and Cramer of North Dakota, all Republicans. The oil and gas industry was the number one campaign contributor to both of the co-sponsors. The industry was second in donations to the sponsor, trailing just behind defense aerospace, Representative Lamborn. Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX) introduced an amendment to clarify the bills impact on the First Amendment, but it was defeated. The portion of the bill in question requires a $5,000 fee to be paid for a citizen to lodge a formal protest against actions occurring on publicly owned lands.
That's right. Lets see...we the public "own" the land, but to protest against oil company activity on our own land, the House GOP wants us to have to pay a 5k fee. This after they gift a benefit package TO the oil companies. Free Speech? Right to Assemble?
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| | | 1448 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Tue, Jan 14, 2014, 13:46
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Hollywood doesnt make enough movies with Islamic villains
Mississippi Republican state Sen. Chris McDaniel (R-Ellisville), who is challenging Sen. Thad Cochran (R), remarked in 2006 that Hollywood avoids portraying Muslims as villains.
McDaniel made the comment during a 2006 episode of "Right Side Radio," a syndicated show he hosted before being elected to the Mississippi state Senate in 2007. The remarks were first reported by Dark Horse Mississippi, a local politics blog.
"It's funny how the movies have portrayed themselves lately and how the video games have portrayed themselves lately," McDaniel said in the segment. "There's one person that cannot be a villain in Hollywood, ever. One group that cannot be villains. Who is that? [Cohost: The Muslims.] Yeah, isn't that neat? They'll go out of their way to find some Russian white guy that's just nuts, and he's the terrorist, which I've never seen that. But the Muslims, they've just disappeared from Hollywood's radar."
Yeah, this guy is a serious politician. *smdh*
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| | | 1452 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Fri, May 16, 2014, 00:10
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WASHINGTON -- Senate Republicans filibustered a package of tax breaks that most of them want Thursday, saying they were mad because Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) wouldn't let them vote on more tax legislation, which included an anti-Obamacare measure.
GOP filibusters tax breaks they want, because they are mad at Harry Reid.
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| | | 1453 | Boldwin
ID: 224331522 Fri, May 16, 2014, 02:58
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Reid is being really sneaky trying to slip just enuff low-impact stuff thru that will give his vulnerable Dem Senators some cover in the election without allowing meaningful votes that would overturn Obama's most onerous works. For example, if he had allowed the Senate to rein in the EPA in it's war on coal [and the pocketbooks of the poor] he could have gotten meaningful compromise lately. Republicans aren't going to give them false, symbolic but meaningless gestures for senators responsible for this unpopular stuff. Let them stand and defend what they've done.
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| | | 1454 | sarge33rd
ID: 593111219 Fri, May 16, 2014, 13:20
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...Obama's most onerous works.
You mean like the Republican healthcare plan he adopted and passed?
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| | | 1455 | Boldwin
ID: 54351610 Fri, May 16, 2014, 13:36
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A) I really wish you'd stop implying Romney is a Republican. He's just part of the one party combine.
B) Notice even Massachusetts is scrapping it's Obamacare exchange.
Just one more central planning failure, as if these bozos ever had a clue how to manage anything.
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| | | 1456 | sarge33rd
ID: 593111219 Fri, May 16, 2014, 13:43
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Boldwin...The PPACA was originally written by the Heritage Foundation, not Romney. The GOP introduced it twice in '93 and then co-sponsored it in '07. I know you dislike the truth, but come on. These are easily verified statements.
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| | | 1457 | sarge33rd
ID: 593111219 Fri, May 16, 2014, 13:53
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History of the Individual Mandate
The concept of the individual health insurance mandate is considered to have originated in 1989 at the conservative Heritage Foundation. In 1993, Republicans twice introduced health care bills that contained an individual health insurance mandate. Advocates for those bills included prominent Republicans who today oppose the mandate including Orrin Hatch (R-UT), Charles Grassley (R-IA), Robert Bennett (R-UT), and Christopher Bond (R-MO). In 2007, Democrats and Republicans introduced a bi-partisan bill containing the mandate.
In 2008, then presidential candidate Barack Obama was opposed to the individual mandate. He stated the following in a Feb. 28, 2008 interview on the Ellen DeGeneres show about his divergent views with Hillary Clinton:
"Both of us want to provide health care to all Americans. Theres a slight difference, and her plan is a good one. But, she mandates that everybody buy health care. Shed have the government force every individual to buy insurance and I dont have such a mandate because I dont think the problem is that people dont want health insurance, its that they cant afford it. So, I focus more on lowering costs. This is a modest difference. But, its one that shes tried to elevate, arguing that because I dont force people to buy health care that Im not insuring everybody. Well, if things were that easy, I could mandate everybody to buy a house, and that would solve the problem of homelessness. It doesnt."
Obama moved to the right and embraced the GOPs plan, in order to negate GOP opposition. Silly him. The Republicans now opposed their own idea, in order to oppose Obama.
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| | | 1458 | Boldwin
ID: 54351610 Fri, May 16, 2014, 16:46
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Sarge
Bennett is gone and if Hatch weren't such an attractive polished accomplished Pol he'd be gone already too. Newt occasionally flirts with these big government grand schemes which explains why he just can't engender popularity among the conservative base even tho we owe him a HUGE debt of gratitude.
Sarge, you just have to realize that the conservative base will always always always agree with Ronald Reagan that government isn't the solution. Government is the problem.
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| | | 1459 | sarge33rd
ID: 593111219 Fri, May 16, 2014, 16:49
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Odd you run to Reagan, until you hear his position re the 2nd Amendment, or taxes (which he raised 11 times in his 8 years in office), or his willingness to reach across the aisle and compromise, or....
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| | | 1460 | Boldwin
ID: 54351610 Fri, May 16, 2014, 16:57
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Further, the Heritage Foundation is not conservative. It is a neocon bastion. It is in it's founding principles big government, Straussian and Trotskiite.
So give up any hope that conservatives can be moved to embrace central planned, big government, socialized medicine. It is never going to happen.
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| | | 1462 | sarge33rd
ID: 593111219 Fri, May 16, 2014, 18:06
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| | | 1465 | Boldwin
ID: 584491621 Sat, May 17, 2014, 14:28
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That pretty well sums up the state of debate on this forum.
Sarge tries to insist Reagan didn't mean what he clearly said in the video in #1458 nor was he in favor of the 2nd amendment and he was in favor of big taxes.
Of course not an ounce of that passes the smell test. It's all obviously wrong, so he is reduced to sneering insults that wouldn't be allowed if they were going in the opposite direction, conservative to liberal.
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| | | 1466 | sarge33rd
ID: 593111219 Sat, May 17, 2014, 14:44
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Reagan re AK-47s
Reagan raised taxes
as usual, B takes what was said, twists it to fit his purpose, then attacks his twisted version.
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| | | 1467 | Boldwin
ID: 584491621 Sat, May 17, 2014, 15:34
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Tip O'Neil's House of Representatives and Robert Byrd's Senate raised taxes.
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| | | 1468 | sarge33rd
ID: 593111219 Sat, May 17, 2014, 18:52
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that isnt the argument you tried to use in 1465 though...so which is it? Am I making false claims, or are you so biased you have to shift denials as differing bits of evidence of your bias appear?
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| | | 1469 | Boldwin
ID: 214511715 Sat, May 17, 2014, 21:56
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Just how tricky do you think you are, Sarge?
There can't be anyone so stupid on this board that they believe Reagan favored socialized medicine, higher taxes or an eroded RTBA.
Not even if he ever had to compromise with big spending big government Dems in the House and Senate.
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| | | 1470 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Sat, May 17, 2014, 22:23
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There can't be anyone so stupid on this board that they believe a word I have to say, when it comes to attacking anyone left of me (There, made your statement a true one)
Ronald Reagan Understood Gun Control
By the standards of certain modern-day conservatives, however, even Ronald Reagan was a traitor to the Second Amendment and the conservative cause. After all, he signed into law gun restrictions that still exist today and was a strong voice in ensuring passage of others after his presidency.
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| | | 1475 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sun, May 18, 2014, 12:45
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Here's the message thick skull, and tell all your dimwitted friends. Lock up the gun or we will lock it up for you.
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| | | 1476 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sun, May 18, 2014, 12:51
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ask me about the Barney Fife rule, I've posted that twice now and got censored
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| | | 1477 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sun, May 18, 2014, 13:11
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how is a concealed weapon a deterrent?
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| | | 1478 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sun, May 18, 2014, 13:13
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what was the purpose of the Salt treaties?
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| | | 1479 | Boldwin
ID: 214511715 Sun, May 18, 2014, 13:24
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Bean
Send it.
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| | | 1480 | Boldwin
ID: 214511715 Sun, May 18, 2014, 13:25
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Or ask it on the yahoo board.
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| | | 1482 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sun, May 18, 2014, 13:53
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Thanks PD,
I suddenly realized I was out of my depth when reading this article. When I am more clear minded I'll try to read it again, got about half way down it. It looks good.
We were taught in military leadership school to deliver a message with three basic points, try not to have more or less. Tell the reader what you are going to say, say it and then tell him what you told him. This guy obviously does not know how to do that, or I am not smart enough to realize he has done it.
It is the essence of a concise soundbite that can capture an audience, persuade them, then give them their marching orders. Follow?
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| | | 1483 | biliruben
ID: 81382416 Sun, May 18, 2014, 13:58
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There are many different types of writing. The style you describe doesn't lend itself well to "Deep and Nuanced."
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| | | 1484 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Sun, May 18, 2014, 14:10
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Often, longer essay forms take me several readings before I can get some of the points being made. That article made me stop about a third of the way in order to try to understand the implications of the points being made.
This paragraph, for example, stopped me cold for awhile, because (while challenging my assumptions) it struck me as exactly right:
Some criticisms of libertarian thought are unwarranted. For example, it is sometimes alleged that libertarians lack concern for others, or are motivated only by greed, or embrace a crass, materialistic ethic. Libertarians think such charges are based on a simple confusion. Their intent is to advocate for liberty, they say; what free people choose to do with their liberty is an entirely separate matter. I think this reply is conclusive if it is meant to rebut the claim that libertarians, because they value freedom, must also value the content of every free choice. (In other contexts, as I will argue below, it is much less conclusive.) That claim really is a confusion. I do not have to approve of pornography simply because I endorse the First Amendment. Similarly, I do not have to approve of choices to be selfish or shallow because I favor economic and political liberty. Liberals, who are often on the receiving end of this kind of attack from conservative critics, should think twice before directing it at libertarians.
I don't know that I agree with it. But a deep and nuanced article is one that commands some respect of its points. Certainly enough to think some of them through.
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| | | 1485 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sun, May 18, 2014, 14:19
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1483 roger that, guess thats why i was out of my depth
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| | | 1486 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sun, May 18, 2014, 15:28
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1476 I'll try to be brief
All of us are nostalgic, I hope you remember a show called the Andy Griffith show (AKA Andy of Mayberry). Ron Howard played Andy's son and his name was Opie. That's why many black men like to call white men Opie. If you dont know the reference you wont laugh and then an argument will ensue.
Anyway, Don Knotts played a guy named Barney Fife.
Andy was the sheriff (he never carried a gun), and Barney was the deputy but he was a clutz and a hot head.
Andy didnt want that idiot shooting anyone, so he gave him just one bullet and made him keep it in his shirt pocket.
So, what is the Barney Fife rule I want to tell you about?
I was sent to Tuzla Air Base (Bosnia) to help with the redeployment of our armored troops and to help bring in the infantry to begin police actions. There was a fairly large "tent city" there where we housed all of the troops. We had at least one accidental firing of weapons in tent city every week, needless to say we had to do something about it.
There was a rule that you had to remove your magazine from your weapon as soon as you came on base. There were clearing barrels at the entrance to all buildings to ensure that no rounds were chambered. I started calling it the "Barney Fife Rule". It was met with mixed reviews.
In garrison we keep our weapons in an armory, with the exception of security forces. You are issued a weapon if it is deemed appropriate by the commander's policy. If you are a Barney Fife type you will not be issued a weapon once found out. We'll find you another job.
Every Redneck wants to be seen as Andy not Barney. Dont confuse Barney Fife with Barney Rubble. Rubble tries to lead from behind, and does so with mixed results.
My uncle is a retired cop from Alexandria VA, a one tour Marine. He has won many handgun competitions and was once ranked fourth in the country. He is nearly deaf at the age of 76.
Though a little bit of a bigot, I am very proud of Uncle Cliff. He is an avid sportsman and still shoots frequently at a range. I use him as my moral guide when discussing guns with those who are NRA members....he locks his guns up and cannot abide by those who dont.
Did I mention, he retired to Tampa and feels safe in movie theaters.
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| | | 1488 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Mon, May 26, 2014, 14:18
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From the article: Citizens who don't have proper identification ought to be able to obtain them quickly and easily. That's the reasonable recourse for the "suppression" non-problem. But every single person who wants to vote should prove that they're doing so legally. That's not racism; that's painfully basic common sense. Oh, and it's overwhelmingly supported by Americans of all political stripes.
Right On!
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| | | 1489 | sarge33rd
ID: 593111219 Mon, May 26, 2014, 18:33
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Bald faced, blatant, lies.
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| | | 1490 | Boldwin
ID: 14572611 Mon, May 26, 2014, 19:06
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Attaboy! Owning it!
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| | | 1491 | Tree
ID: 438482411 Mon, May 26, 2014, 20:02
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the first sentence of 1488 nails it. it's not easy to get ID, and it costs money to have one. forcing one to purchase an id is, in essence, a poll tax.
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| | | 1492 | Boldwin
ID: 14572611 Mon, May 26, 2014, 20:05
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They hand them out virtually for free at the DMV. And them Dems make sure no one ever checks for them.
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| | | 1493 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Mon, May 26, 2014, 21:30
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How many people in this country are registered to vote, and actually do vote, who are not US citizens? We don't know.
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| | | 1494 | Boldwin
ID: 114512621 Mon, May 26, 2014, 22:51
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And you are determined we never find out for some obscure no doubt self-interested reason.
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| | | 1495 | Tree
ID: 438482411 Mon, May 26, 2014, 23:10
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They hand them out virtually for free at the DMV.
virtually free, is not free.
in addition to the cost of the ID itself, there are the costs associated with obtaining the necessary documents, such as a passport.
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| | | 1496 | Boldwin
ID: 114512621 Mon, May 26, 2014, 23:16
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So make them free.
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| | | 1497 | biliruben
ID: 28420307 Mon, May 26, 2014, 23:19
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They don't hand them out for free in the liberal haven of Washington. You real documents, either a passport, previous license or two or 3 ids, if you don't have these.
That can cost upwards of $200 if you don't already have them.
Then the ID card is $50+, and if you need a license, $100 plus.
That adds up to a month or two of groceries for those who are already living hand to mouth.
This is a poll tax, and anyone who is advocating a poll tax is more unamerican than just about anyone I can think of. They should be bowing and scraping in apology to real Americans for even thinking of this scum move.
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| | | 1498 | Boldwin
ID: 114512621 Mon, May 26, 2014, 23:24
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This is complete BS. I can get a driver's license producing nothing more than two utility bills or many other just as easy to obtain records.
Dems have no problem perverting the vote with too easy Motor Voter laws already.
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| | | 1499 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916 Mon, May 26, 2014, 23:46
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I can get a driver's license producing nothing more than two utility bills
Not in Utah you can't. You'll need those utility bills, your original birth certificate(not a copy), your social security card, and, if you're applying for the first time, a certification from a driving school, which costs a minimum of $300.
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| | | 1500 | Boldwin
ID: 114512621 Tue, May 27, 2014, 00:09
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This is all complete BS. Making it simple as pie, anywhere it isn't already, is as easy as pie and you all know it.
That's what the Dem favorite cause motor voter is all about. Handing out faulty voting permission left and right. They can just as easily check and hand out real valid permission.
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| | | 1502 | biliruben
ID: 28420307 Tue, May 27, 2014, 00:38
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You are a tool. It isn't hard to do some real research rather than regurgitate Koch-bought nonsense.
You used to be much better than this.
Tool.
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| | | 1503 | Boldwin
ID: 114512621 Tue, May 27, 2014, 01:00
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Seriously, what sort of person believes asking people to prove they qualify to vote is an unfair burden? Over 82% of Americans think it's reasonable but some tools carry water for the Dem fraudsters.
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| | | 1504 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916 Tue, May 27, 2014, 08:40
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The problem isn't asking people to prove they qualify to vote. The problem is deliberately making it more difficult for a certain segment of citizens, which is exactly what some states are doing with the blessing of the GOP.
I would agree that those who take the time and effort to qualify for welfare benefits don't have much of an argument that they are being deprived the opportunity to provide proper certification to vote.
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| | | 1505 | Frick
ID: 29235107 Tue, May 27, 2014, 09:21
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How exactly are they making it more difficult? You have to have a form of state issued voter ID. And free ID cards are provided for voting, so it isn't a cost issue. You have to register to vote, so getting an ID card at some point, you can even do it on the same day, isn't exactly a huge step up.
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| | | 1506 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916 Tue, May 27, 2014, 09:53
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And free ID cards are provided for voting, so it isn't a cost issue
I'm unaware of a free state ID card provided for voting in my state. And I guarantee that if you show up at the DMV with a couple of utility bills they will send you on your way with nothing. I had to make a second trip recently for my 19 year old daughter because they wanted an original copy of her birth certificate, not the copy I made at home on my machine.
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| | | 1507 | Boldwin
ID: 114512621 Tue, May 27, 2014, 10:24
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It's $8 and two utility bills, etc in Illinois for a photo ID.
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| | | 1508 | Perm Dude
ID: 294531914 Tue, May 27, 2014, 10:37
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If we were talking about gun rights, I guarantee the far right would be screaming about the encroachment of their constitutional rights, and about this being the beginning of an "Obama gun grab."
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| | | 1509 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Tue, May 27, 2014, 10:58
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1506 They asked me the same thing when i got my drivers license in Ohio back in 1972, we didnt even have copiers readily available back then. What's the issue? The Social Security Office asked me for my Birth Certificate before issuing me a number as well, what's your point?
If getting a driver's license, a SSN or registering to vote is valuable to you, you will do as you are required. If you dont care, why should a government worker care. Hopefully one day the system wont be so burdened with out dated manual procedures to verify citizenship. It really isnt that hard to have a single centralized database with verified data on every person. If not for illegal immigrants we wouldnt need a Census either. Meanwhile it is what it is.
Fingerprinted or DNA swabbed newborns or recent pictures would speed all of that up and reduce human error, but the Syfy channel will tell you we cant do that. Next thing you know we will all have chips in our heads.
People whining about what a PITA it is to bring proof of CITIZENSHIP to get the priveleges of CITIZENSHIP are just whiners. People whining about how long it takes a DMV guy to attend to their needs, all the while whining that the DMV worker is fat dumb lazy doesnt help either.
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| | | 1510 | Frick
ID: 29235107 Tue, May 27, 2014, 12:46
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If the state is making you have a state issued ID and you have to pay for one, I do see that as a problem. When I voted in the primary, there were large signs up stating that you had to have a state issued photo ID and you could get one that day from the DMV for free (provided you had the correct paperwork.)
What is even nicer now is I can vote at any of 25 voting centers in my county. The poll workers scan your ID and give provide you with the appropriate ballet (electronically). This worked great as the polling center closest to me was very busy and had long lines, I went to one about 2 minutes further away and was in and out in under 5 minutes. Having the ID is instrumental in the process as the code on the back tells them that you registered and which ballet to receive.
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| | | 1511 | Perm Dude
ID: 294531914 Tue, May 27, 2014, 14:11
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That "any poll" voting is something I've long advocated. I probably said this like 1000 posts ago, but the GOP can make the Dems work for them on this, simply by expanding voting opportunities like same-day registration, no excuse absentee voting, early voting, and any-poll voting only for those with proper photo ID.
If you don't have proper ID, the current system stays in place where you are required to preregister 90 days before an election, bring a voter card, in-person only voting, only at your local polling place on that Tuesday from 8-8, etc.
I bet you Democrats would work their tails off getting people photo ID so that they can participate in the additional extras that having such ID would get you.
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| | | 1512 | Frick
ID: 29235107 Tue, May 27, 2014, 15:57
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I mentioned the any poll to a Republican friend of mine and he was very much against it, mainly for the reasons you listed. Sad.
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| | | 1513 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Tue, May 27, 2014, 16:14
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I'd like to see the cost trade off between an ad that wines about the ID system and using that money to just pay the bill and STFU.
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| | | 1514 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Wed, May 28, 2014, 21:23
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re 1498...not in TX, nor in CA. Certified copy of your BC if you are coming in from out of state, your current DL, at least 2 yrs history of auto ins OR your HS Diploma in TX.
Quit assuming that the way it is for a white male in your backyard is how it is across the country.
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| | | 1515 | Frick
ID: 29235107 Thu, May 29, 2014, 08:02
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Re: 1514
Why do you bother to respond? At this point, does anyone take him seriously?
From the Illinois DMV
Unless you consider a SSN card an "easy to obtain record" he is wrong.
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| | | 1516 | Tree
ID: 438482411 Thu, May 29, 2014, 08:34
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This is complete BS. I can get a driver's license producing nothing more than two utility bills or many other just as easy to obtain records...
...It's $8 and two utility bills, etc in Illinois for a photo ID.
of course, both of these are lies.
a photo ID, in Illinois, costs 20 bucks, not eight.
in addition, you must provide FOUR pieces of identification (not "two utility bills"). those include: * Proof of residence. * Proof of your social security number (SSN). If you have never been issued a SSN, you may be required to obtain one, or, if ineligible, provide a letter with a Social Security Administration letterhead dated at least 90 days prior to the application. * Proof of date of birth. * Proof of written signature.
Driver's licenses are 10 bucks, but still require forms of ID that cost money to obtain. where Baldwin gets the id that you can produce "two utility bills" is beyond me. it's not 1967 anymore.
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| | | 1517 | Boldwin
ID: 14532818 Thu, May 29, 2014, 13:30
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This is such a misleading statement - that cost money to obtain.
That just means a utility bill costs money.
So what? It's just proof of life. It's not a superhuman unfair burden to prove you live somewhere.
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| | | 1518 | Tree
ID: 438482411 Thu, May 29, 2014, 19:56
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That just means a utility bill costs money.
did you miss the entire post that detailed you need more than a utility bill, or are you being deliberately obtuse?
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| | | 1519 | Boldwin
ID: 14532818 Thu, May 29, 2014, 20:23
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No one on the republican side has said 'make it expensive or difficult'. Those are just imaginative exuses from those who want to steal the vote and keep voter fraud alive, easy, undetectable and unchecked.
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| | | 1520 | Tree
ID: 438482411 Fri, May 30, 2014, 01:56
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No one on the republican side has said 'make it expensive or difficult'.
perhaps not. but they are the ones pushing for ID methods that are not free, do not cost $8, and require more than a couple of utility bills to acquire.
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| | | 1522 | sarge33rd
ID: 35521312 Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 13:28
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No one on the republican side has said 'make it expensive or difficult'.
One need not SAY those words, to DO those things. TX has shutdown dozens of DPS offices, in mainly rural, black counties. (DPS in TX = DMV almost anywhere else. BMV in Indiana) This then requires some folks, to travel 100 miles or more, to get TO a DPS office. So while they may not have spoken those words outloud, they have for damn sure done precisely those things.
DOJ Texas Voter ID Ruling Is No Surprise Given States Faulty Colorblind Policies
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| | | 1527 | Boldwin
ID: 485244 Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 11:02
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If you think states have consolidated DMV's as a way to disenfranchize would-be voters you have no right to call me a conspiracy theorist.
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| | | 1528 | Boldwin
ID: 485244 Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 13:49
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As far as I am concerned [as much as I disapprove of unfunded mandates] order every police station to offer free voter ID's. I doubt you will get a republican backlash.
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| | | 1529 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Fri, Jun 06, 2014, 14:08
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Checking a voter's citizenship before allowing them to vote just makes too much sense for some people.
Getting an ID with anything less than "proof" of citizenship is absurd to even think about.
That it can be an inconvenience to someone to obtain the ID, when it returns so many benefits is something not even worth discussing, let alone turning it into a political football.
Now, if its your goal to give citizenship to illegal aliens, quit pretending that its not by creating this monster. This game is closer to the emperor's new clothes than a thinly veiled proposition.
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| | | 1530 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Sat, Jun 07, 2014, 11:05
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Now, if its your goal to give citizenship to illegal aliens...
How, exactly, would this work through this issue?
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| | | 1531 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sat, Jun 07, 2014, 13:22
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In my view there is no issue except the one that people are creating. If the dems are so concerned about the cost or effort required by the few people that actually have a no kidding concern, they should just buy them their copy of their birth certificate, drive them to their DMV and get them their govt ID. It would be far less effort and expense than causing all this rucus.
As I have posted before, it would be cheaper to fix the problem for the few legitimate outliers than it would be to pay for one ad whining about the issue.
The only logical reason for this rucus is to provide a smokescreen for giving rights to non-citizens who are not entitled to them.
I am sure that the GOP would be glad to pick up the bill just to make the Dems quit whining.
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| | | 1532 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Sat, Jun 07, 2014, 13:35
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If you believe that is the "only logical reason" then you haven't been listening to what the Dems are saying.
Illegal aliens don't vote. Neither is there a widespread voter identity fraud problem.
In general, a government which makes it more difficult for people to exercise their constitutional rights without a demonstrated problem to be solved by it should be done cautiously, if at all. And that doesn't matter if the right in question is to vote, or to bear arms.
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| | | 1533 | Boldwin
ID: 50546712 Sat, Jun 07, 2014, 13:53
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Illegal aliens don't vote. Neither is there a widespread voter identity fraud problem.
That Big Lie doesn't become even the slightest bit true no matter how many times you tell it.
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| | | 1534 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Sun, Jun 08, 2014, 09:35
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re 1527....odd, it has only happened in red states, where new voter ID laws have been passed.
1533..YOU, are the repeating the lie B. There is virtually ZERO voter impersonation fraud. That, is a simple fact.
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| | | 1535 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sun, Jun 08, 2014, 10:08
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What exactly is wrong with asking someone for ID to vote? We ask them for ID to buy cigarettes and liquor, why is voting less important?
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| | | 1538 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 14:44
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The "mandate" from November allowed them to let their racist hair down.
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| | | 1539 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 15:01
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Is there any response the GOP could have that would allow them to not be labelled the racist party by Democrats? Including doing nothing?
Republicans are the defacto racist sexist party, since the dems are the party of the poor (read non-white), right? My observation is that if you are against anything the left says, you are labelled a racist. Of course if you believe that, then anything you say against a Republican is an attack on White America. So, if your agenda is racist, you'll naturally use that argument until it no longer leads to success. Umm, that would be now.
So, lets just take a step back and make sure we understand what racism is before we sling these accusations around. Let's not practice a policy that insists that only white people can be racists. That is not the definition of the word.
Is it possible that neither party condones racism, just that both have some racist members?
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| | | 1540 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 17:33
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"Is there any response the GOP could have..." Yes. They could not continue to do racist things. Did you read the link?
And, to be clear, the Dems don't actually need to make up racism against these lawmakers--the GOP lawmakers in question are doing that all on their own.
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| | | 1541 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 19:01
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Excuse me....the article says Michigan RNC Committeeman Dave Agema is a racist...OK if its thats true its true, great observation there.
Mith turns that into "The RNC: Not racist, except for when they are. "
After that PD says "The "mandate" from November allowed them to let their racist hair down."
I suggest to you that you may have profiled ALL members of the GOP as racists and your response is that ALL members of the GOP should stop doing racist things. Tell me how I have misconstrued anything. Oh and be careful not to bury yourself...better to get off the racist agenda.
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| | | 1542 | Mith
ID: 3692387 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 05:48
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Is there any response the GOP could have that would allow them to not be labelled the racist party by Democrats? Including doing nothing?
Why is your concern with how they are labeled by Democrats? The response "that would allow then to not be labelled the racist party by" anyone would be for the non-racists in their fold to take a strong public stand once and for all against racism.
Show some balls and stand up to the MI voters who voted for this guy and let them know that securing their votes and support is not important enough for them to stay in bed with racist culture. Of course the reason they haven't taken that stand is that it isn't true. They know they need the racists.
My observation is that if you are against anything the left says, you are labelled a racist.
We are all subject to foolish observations. Not usually that foolish, though.
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| | | 1543 | Mith
ID: 3692387 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 06:27
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We're talking about the party of the Rep Lynn Jenkins (KS) who in 2009 told a town hall meeting that the GOP was looking for a "great white hope" and went on to name some white people who might qualify.
And of Rep Roy Blunt (MO) who compared the The GOP's dealings with the Obama presidency with monkeys running amok on a golf course.
The Party of Rush Limbaugh, famous for songs like "Barack the Magic Negro" and such quips as "So, for the first time in his life, Paterson's gonna be a massa. Interesting, interesting.", referring to the black former governor of NY, when he was tasked with replacing Eric Massa.
The party who's members think the many, many images like this we have seen are appropriate:

You know I could go on and on and on, so don't push me.
You really need someone to explain to you what response it would take for them to stop being called racists?
Sweet Jesus, just stop consorting with and acting like racists! Why is this difficult for you?
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| | | 1544 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 10:02
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Uh, no, Bean. We don't have to demonstrate that all members of the GOP are racist to say that racist member of the GOP are more open about their racism now. and I should point out that MITH's link, and his title of it, was about the RNC not the whole GOP.
I'm sure it is more than a little embarrassing to have such people like Dave Agema are in charge of setting the policy agenda for your political party. But that's not going to be helped by, essentially, saying that there are likely lots of non-racists in the GOP if only I did the research to find them.
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| | | 1545 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 10:43
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Most of the Republicans I know, arent racist; but most of the racists I know, are Republican.
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| | | 1546 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 12:24
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<1543> We're talking about the party of the Rep Lynn Jenkins (KS) who in 2009 told a town hall meeting that the GOP was looking for a "great white hope" and went on to name some white people who might qualify
Once again, you take one person and attach the attributes of that one person to the entire group. Keep doing that and you know exactly where that leads.
Get off the racist agenda before you bury yourself.
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| | | 1547 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 12:32
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<1545> Your definition of racist begins with "a white guy is a racist if he". Be absolutely sure you have your definition correct.
Again, get off the racist agenda. It is only showing that you are the racist, because you believe it to be the defining component on every issue.
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| | | 1548 | Mith
ID: 3692387 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 12:40
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Once again, you take one person and attach the attributes of that one person to the entire group. Keep doing that and you know exactly where that leads.
How weak. You and I and everyone reading this knows that's not what I'm doing at all. It's as if I didn't write anything but that one sentence.
The problem is not that they are all or mostly of that mindset. It's that the majority of them is willing to tolerate that ideology among them, and to some extent, even willing to allow it to shape policy.
Seriously, the #3 rep in the house has KKK ties. And the rest of them are defending his history with that group.
Don't you understand that it's not that this happened once.
It's that it keeps fvcking happening.
And the reason for that is not all republicans (holy crap I can't believe I really have to explain this) or most republicans. It's that there are enough "wink wink nudge nudge" types in the fold to make it part of the culture.
And if you don't believe it's part of the culture of the party, then you are in denial.
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| | | 1549 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 13:07
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<1544> I'm sure it is more than a little embarrassing to have such people like Dave Agema are in charge of setting the policy agenda for your political party.
I'm a Democrat and it's more than a little embarassing to have my party become so racist. Get off the race agenda before you bury us all.
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| | | 1551 | Mith
ID: 8018814 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 14:15
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Riiight. The non-racist way to react to learning of some of your opposition's leaders' relationships with white superemist groups is to shut the fvck up about it.
Because doing anything else would be to subscribe to a racist agenda.
Sure.
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| | | 1553 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 15:26
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Wow, I was sure I posted something about the need for another party when the two we have are so polarizing. Guess it was too provacative for this august thread.
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| | | 1554 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 15:39
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<1548> Did you see that hilarious bit on the Daily Show? They were talking about the sincerity of people when they denounce the actions of others in their group.
The premise was it's not enough to say you are against the actions, you have to be convincing when you say it. They were making fun of Muslim groups who dont denounce terrorists enthusiastically enough and the response of non-muslims to that denouncement.
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| | | 1555 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 15:57
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I'm with the man behind Redstate.com, Erick erickson. Scalise should take one for the team and just go away. He sisn't worth sandbagging his party.
Then again the idea that the people who tolerated Robert Byrd and even celebrated him should be railroading an infinitely less culpable Scalise, is intolerable in itself.
[And BTW, how ludicrous to be censoring the 10 posts a day here with such a heavy hand.]
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| | | 1557 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 18:40
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For what its worth, on his involvement with the KKK: "It has emerged throughout my life to haunt and embarrass me and has taught me in a very graphic way what one major mistake can do to one's life, career, and reputation," Byrd wrote in a new memoir -- "Robert C. Byrd: Child of the Appalachian Coalfields
Might not be good enough for some, could have a bit more condemnier if you ask me. Ironically, he represented a state whose existence was a result of the Civil War and the desire of its people to fight for the North.
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| | | 1558 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 00:17
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Byrd was a MAJOR player in the KKK. He was not incidentally involved, like Scalise.
Byrd was more David Duke than David Duke.
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| | | 1559 | Mith
ID: 3692387 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 05:13
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Yes the southern conservative Dixiecrat wing of the Democratic party, which no longer exists, was quite racist. Much moreso in fact than today's GOP.
But you'll notice it isn't the least bit necessary to evoke Strom Thurmond to talk about racism in today's GOP.
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| | | 1560 | Perm Dude
ID: 58914222 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 09:19
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Byrd, of course, repudiated his past and was embraced as a result by African-Americans.
The Right would like people to believe that blacks should only be listened to on the issue of racism during distant past acts by Democrats only.
Racism, for so much of the GOP, is cynically manipulated for political gain, in other words. Sad that the "They do it too!!!" crowd is alive and well.
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| | | 1561 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 12:35
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Ferguson was a case of resisting arrest that went bad. The choking guy in NYC was a case of resisting arrest that went bad. The killing of the kid in the park in Cleveland was a bad read on what appeared to be an armed man. The killing of the man with the BB gun in the Cleveland Walmart was the same.
None of us was there, none of us is a member of the teams assigned to sort it out and none of us has access to the info that those people have. All we have are the pseudo-facts the media chooses to give us, presented in a fashion to sway our opinions.
Democrats chose to make the issue a race issue at the expense of the reputations of ALL police, putting their lives at risk. As a result, racist accusations are appearing more frequently on both sides. Good leadership attempts to silence the madness, not fuel it.
Next time the Dems choose to start a race war, they should choose a better poster boy than the thug in Ferguson.
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| | | 1562 | Mith
ID: 3692387 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 12:46
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Democrats chose to make the issue a race issue at the expense of the reputations of ALL police, putting their lives at risk.
There is a problem with the way police work is conducted in America today. Some of it has to do with race. How much so is an opinion that varies greatly among people who agree.
And of course some who disagree are more willing to look at the issue objectively than someone who might make silly blanket statements like the italicized one in this post.
That said, the issues with police in America are something that really belongs in this thread, since it's more of a libertarian/authoritarian issue rather than a Dem/GOP issue or even a left/right issue.
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| | | 1563 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 12:58
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Did you see how the police in Columbus tear gassed a mostly white student body revelling on High Street in Columbus after Ohio State won? No big deal there right, they were mostly spoiled white kids that needed to behave, right? Kids will be kids right?
Thank god the cops were there before anybody of any color got hurt.
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| | | 1564 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 13:33
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There is a problem with the way police work is conducted in America today.
How did you come to that conclusion. Have you personally been arrested by every police department in the country and through statistical analysis of your personal experiences conclude that we have a pervasive problem with the way police work is performed in America? If so, why should I trust a criminal's opinion of the police?
Or is your analysis based solely on anecdotes, the ones that you choose to highlight to bolster your premise?
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| | | 1565 | biliruben
ID: 561162511 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 14:26
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Why would you use personal experience or anecdote when there are, you know, statistics that clearly demonstrate bias in policing?
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| | | 1566 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 14:35
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Great, present them and we will discuss those, that is exactly where I was headed, if you decided you couldn't just shut up about race.
If you're prepared to have your statistics scrutinized and analyzed that should be no issue for you. The scrutiny will begin with the method of data collection and the identity of thee data collectors and therefore the validity of the data. It will carry all the way to conclusions reached as a result of the data presented.
If, on the other hand, you are going to have to prepare mostly for the onslaught of challenges to your objectivity in the analysis you may decide to just leave the issue alone. Kind of like the cop who has to make a snap judgement in a life and death situation, only without years to prepare his defense. So, bring on the stats my friend and prepare to defend them with your life if required.
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| | | 1567 | biliruben
ID: 561162511 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 16:07
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http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/documents/spd_findletter_12-16-11.pdf
I only follow our local SPD, so I'm most familiar with the bias the DOJ strongly suggested was a problem (though SPD has consistently failed to collect the data to properly assess how much bias is occurring hence use of force was the only problem they could definitively identify). Also, the DOJ has a well-known anti-law bias, so divide by 10. Never mind their name. It's Orwellian.
Choice relevant quote:
"... in the East precinct, non-whites make up only 33% of the population, however, they made up 64% of the street checks. Similarly, in the West precinct, non-whites only make up 26% of the population, but made up 47% of the street checks. In the Southwest precinct, nonwhites make up 32% of the population, but made up 49% of the street checks. "
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| | | 1568 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 16:46
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From the executive summary:
"Discriminatory Policing We do not make a finding that SPD engages in a pattern or practice of discriminatory policing..."
Do you want me to argue against this, or have you changed sides?
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| | | 1569 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 17:02
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I'm sorry, I dont really mean to be flippant. I'll risk be branded a racist and just say nothing in those statistics say that there was a racist motivation behind the street checks. The DoJ guys know that they can't win that argument. If you are on a witch hunt, you got to come out with a witch or your mission fails. Despite that, they admit that they couldn't find a witch.
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| | | 1570 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 17:32
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If I was a black man in a typical black neighborhood I'd sure be relieved that the police spent more time policing my neighborhood where the crime was actually being committed, and relieved that they weren't off on a wild-goose chase stopping little old ladies to keep their stats allegedly non-discriminatory.
Would I also feel really disturbed to be stopped by the police? I'm white and I am really really disturbed to be stopped by the police. I already think it's an outrage half the time.
Yes there is a problem countrywide with the police.
The police career attracts a disproportionate number of bullies reliving their glory years as a youth offender in school as well as the bullied in school who are turning the tables.
Power corrupts. Police are human. They sometimes enjoy abusing their power.
There is an epidemic of police falsely accusing people of resisting arrest, just because they can get away with it and the court will never challenge the word of the policeman, or charge them with the life-destroying felony these police have just committed on some poor unlucky dude. BE EXCEEDINGLY CALM AND DO NOT MOVE WITHIN TEN FEET OF A POLICEMAN. And even then you will not be safe from a false accusation if the policeman is one of the all-to-common jerks on the force.
The police need civilian oversight that does not rubberstamp their innocence ticket no matter what they do. We are nowhere near this situation now.
On the other hand police should not be the victims of a reverse-racist politically motivated race war against them.
Police can easily get into a war mentality, see you as part of the generic enemy they face every day, and you can easily become their My Lai.
Police are well aware that choke-holds have produced astounding numbers of wrongful deaths-by-police and yet they still use them even when their departments have officially renounced them.
Government use of force is a very dangerous but necessary evil. Legislatures should make as few laws as possible and reduce the police interactions with the public to a minimum.
Killing people just to collect cigarette taxes is criminal legislating as much as it is criminal policing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Ferguson phenomenon has a deeper genesis than anyone here has guessed and there is a reason it came up as soon as Obama faced no more elections and decided to take the gloves off entirely.
Obama if you scratch him, like all liberals, is a jack-booted citizen abuser at heart and he likes a much stronger militarized and dangerous police/domestic army harassing the public as often as possible.
Just as long as he can put a 'Bill Ayers' in charge of it.
Obama still believes in creating a..."We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives weve set. Weve got to have a civilian national security force thats just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded. You just haven't caught on to the real radical that is Obama yet.
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| | | 1571 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 17:48
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hehe, now that's a twist I didn't see coming
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| | | 1572 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 18:11
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"The police need civilian oversight that does not rubberstamp their innocence ticket no matter what they do. We are nowhere near this situation now."
The report that bili linked is just that oversight. We dont need a redundant system.
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| | | 1573 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 18:59
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Tell it to the city of NY. Even if it wasn't a a genuine choke-hold in the bloodflow or air-blockage sense of the term, even if he died of a heart attack from being overweight, IDK...I have the distinct sense those police were taken off the hook too easily without proper review. A ruber-stamping DA waving this off does not meet my definition of independent citizen review. The problem is more serious and the current process is inadequate.
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| | | 1574 | Seattle Zen
ID: 576301411 Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 19:21
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The problem is more serious and the current process is inadequate.
Damn Straight, Baldy!!!
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| | | 1575 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 00:42
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<1573> A city District Attorney is not the Department of Justice. All you are doing is calling for a process that aleady exists. God, what has happened to the world when Baldy is calling for more government? Someone kick me and wake me up, this must be a dream.
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| | | 1576 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 00:47
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Read about it
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/documents/polmis.php
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| | | 1577 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 09:26
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"Who will watch the watchers?"
The process as it stands is that the police have blanket amnesty for whatever they do. They need more stringent oversight. Naturally liberals will takeover and corrupt that new process, bending it to their ends.
That is the delicious [to him] conundrum Obama is exploiting.
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| | | 1578 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 09:49
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FYI I lived in a city where the police chief was torturing people into false confessions for decades...
...for decades.
Jon Burge got away with it for decades and only paid 4.5 years in jail when he was finally nailed for it. [true there was a statute of limitations issue involved, that's how long the Chicago police got away with it]
His tenure alone was a 19 year reign of terror.
You can tell me the existing procedures eventually cleaned the situation up.
Nineteen years of false convictions and torture.
The governor had to put a moratorium on the death penalty executions, so many innocent people were getting railroaded. The city spent @$30 million cleaning this situation up.
Someone who isn't predisposed to rubber-stamping approval of the police and whitewashing anything they do needs to be overseeing them.
Unfortunately the way of the world is that a liberal controlled unelected untouchable citizen's panel will eventually be set up and deliver Obama or his successors a fascist "civilian national security force thats just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded" as the army.
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| | | 1579 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 09:53
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And while the DA's were looking the other way for the police, they were indicting and convicting many many innocent people, with not a whiff of concern for decency and truth, only an eye on their conviction percentage and their related political careers.
Illinois...what a state.
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| | | 1580 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 10:03
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The 'Kafka' continues...that situation in Chicago would still be going on but for one honest incorruptable man.
Patrick Fitzgerald
The corrupt combine crooks took one look at Fitzgerald afterward and knew exactly how they could handle him.
They pointed him in the direction of their relatively clean opponents, other good men like Fitzgerald. Nailing them for relatively minor indiscretions. [compared to combine standard operating procedure]
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| | | 1581 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 10:48
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Ya know, at some point you are going to have to trust the process or just keep your weapon loaded and at your side.
There used to be a popular song back in the late 60s or early 70s. The chorus was "they're coming to take me away ha ha" the laugh kept getting more and more diabolical. Wondering if its available on I-Tunes.
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| | | 1582 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 11:05
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... to the funny farm, where life is wonderful all the time..
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| | | 1583 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 11:19
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Is it not amazing that most of us prefer honesty and integrity over ideology in our government officials? No matter how whacky our ideology is.
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| | | 1584 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 14:05
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Reality, what a concept. This system is so screwed up it's just crazy [like quantum mechanics] and if you think it makes sense you don't understand it. This world is the corrupted wasteland of the morally lost.
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| | | 1585 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 14:10
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Tell the victims of Jon Burge to "just trust the system". Let me know how that conversation goes.
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| | | 1586 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 14:36
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Then, there's
this system.
The chief military commissions prosecutor in the mid-2000s, Air Force colonel Morris Davis, later said he could not find any offence with which to charge Slahi.
The detainees lawyer, Nancy Hollander, said: Mohamedou has never been charged with anything. The US has never charged him with a crime. There is no crime to charge him with. Its not that they havent found the evidence against him there isnt evidence against him."
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| | | 1587 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 23:48
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Ever feel like you were being intentionally maniupulated to hate one another?
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| | | 1588 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 23:50
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Scary huh?
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| | | 1589 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 23:51
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That's a play that you cant afford a ticket to
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| | | 1590 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 00:42
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Rise above the noise
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| | | 1591 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 00:46
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Vive La Revolution!!!!
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| | | 1592 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 00:46
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Get real
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| | | 1594 | Mith
ID: 3692387 Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 07:26
|
Foir the record, anecdotal cases can be useful in discussing some of the widespread problems with police. Here's one that illustrates one of the issues I take with the way police work is done in the USPolice were in pursuit of Anton Simmons, who had 17 warrants our for his name, when 22-year-old Joseph Swink crashed his car trying to avoid the police pursuit on Interstate 70.
They ended up grabbing him [Swink], tossing him to the ground, and were trying to handcuff him, said St. Ann Police Chief Aaron Jimenez. All the sirens and lights were going off. It was very loud and they couldnt hear anything the citizen was saying.
Swink is an accounting student at UMSL with no criminal record and was on his way home from an internship when he was accidentally involved in the pursuit.
Police say they were able to get him into custody using the least amount of force necessary, but when they finally had him in handcuffs on the ground, they heard on their radios that the real suspect was in custody at a different location.
Swink suffered severe damage to his ear and his vehicle was totaled.
I never really had 100 percent trust in police before, Swink said. But I really dont now. Obviously well intentioned people make honest mistakes and this seems like such an example. His car was clipped by the suspect's car, and then when Swink's car filled with smoke, he ran from the car. So it's understandable that in the confusion, some of the police on hand were sure that he was their suspect.
But forget the wrongful arrest. This young man was very clearly assaulted, despite the fact that the police openly admit that they were able to bring him into custody using the minimum amount of force.

The chief of the St Ann Police Department says his detectives will not face criminal charges. And from what we've seen in police abuse cases, it doesn't seem likely at all that there would be any chance at a conviction, anyway.
And that's the problem that this anecdotal example illustrates. Whether it could happen just as easily to a white man (personally I doubt it) why is it ok to do this to a suspect who does not resist arrest, regardless of whatever terrible thing he might be suspected of doing?
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| | | 1596 | Mith
ID: 3692387 Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 07:47
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Here's another anecdotal case that enlightens us to more widespread issues.I learned that an officer had put his gun up directly to Michaels right temple and misfired, then did it again, and shot him.
From the beginning I cautioned patience, though Michaels mother and sister were in an uproar. They had watched him get shot. But as an Air Force officer and pilot I knew the way safety investigations are conducted, and I was thinking that this was going to be conducted this way. Yet within 48 hours I got the message: The police had cleared themselves of all wrongdoing. In 48 hours! They hadnt even taken statements from several eyewitnesses. Crime lab reports showed that my sons DNA or fingerprints were not on any gun or holster, even though one of the police officers involved in Michaels shooting had claimed that Michael had grabbed his gun.
The officer who killed my son, Albert Gonzalez, is not only still on the force ten years later, he is also a licensed concealed-gun instructor across the state line in Illinoisand was identified by the Chicago Tribune in an Aug. 7 investigative story as one of multiple instructors [who] are police officers with documented histories of making questionable decisions about when to use force.
Wanting to uncover the truth, our family hired a private investigator who ended up teaming up with a retired police detective to launch their own investigation. They discovered that the officer who thought his gun was being grabbed in fact had caught it on a broken car mirror. The emergency medical technicians who arrived later found the officers fighting with each other over what happened. We filed an 1,100-page report detailing Michael's killing with the FBI and US Attorney.
It took six years to get our wrongful death lawsuit settled, and my family received $1.75 million. But I wasnt satisfied by a long shot. I used my entire portion of that money and much more of my own to continue a campaign for more police accountability. I wanted to change things for everyone else, so no one else would ever have to go through what I did. We did our research: In 129 years since police and fire commissions were created in the state of Wisconsin, we could not find a single ruling by a police department, an inquest or a police commission that a shooting was unjustified. There was one shooting we found, in 2005, that was ruled justified by the department and an inquest, but additional evidence provided by citizens caused the DA to charge the officer. The city of Milwaukee settled with a confidentiality agreement and the facts of that sealed. The officer involved committed suicide.
The problem over many decades, in other words, was a near-total lack of accountability for wrongdoing; and if police on duty believe they can get away with almost anything, they will act accordingly. As a military pilot, I knew that if law professionals investigated police-related deaths like, say, the way that the National Transportation Safety Board investigated aviation mishaps, police-related deaths would be at an all time low. Obviously, I don't believe there is an epidemic of cops who go around executing suspects who are in custody and handcuffed. But I wholly believe that the same "thin blue line" sense of committed brotherhood that police officers claim is essential to their protection when patrolling the mean streets, leads to a certain immunity to being held responsible to their own transgressions.
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| | | 1597 | Mith
ID: 3692387 Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 09:01
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And of course, some of the problems I have with the way police work is done in America are not problems at all to other people.
Since 9/11, I see an increasing number of police officers who look more like members of ISIS than my image of American cops. Personally, I was a lot more comfortable around cops when they wore light blue shirts and funny hats and carried revolvers.
I was talking to my wife's uncle recently, a staunchly conservative gun collector and competitive shooter who agreed with me. He has no idea why the police department in his little 25k population town of Keane, NH needs a military wing with heavily armored vehicles and all the other trimmings.
He says he sees those guys all the time at the gun range. They show up dressed in their black fatigues with their faces masked and with automatic weapons, which no one else is allowed to use there.
I don't have to rely on anecdotal accounts to know that Keane is the same as most places around the country. America's police are becoming increasingly militant, in terms of appearance, training, equipment and attitudes.
Personally, I want cops patrolling my streets, not the military. And especially not some paramilitary outfit that employs the weapons and standards for use of force of a military but lacks anything like the oversight.
I do acknowledge that for someone who is more comfortable with the kind of growing authoritarianism we see occurring in our law enforcement officials, this isn't a problem at all. I've spoken with plenty such people, mostly because of the high number of cops in my extended family.
So I'm aware that I can only speak for myself.
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| | | 1598 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 15:42
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If you want to change the investigation process in your state, get to work and quit wasting time telling us about it. As the man told you, its not easy to fight City Hall.
Local governments are generally the most corrupt entities within our system, as nepotism and despotic rule inevitably occur. It happens even in our largest cities, where one would think it might be impossible to have people coalesce into a unified impervious front resisting oversight from anyone outside the "family".
I'll caution you that any review committee you choose to create cannot be composed of people who have no experience in law enforcement. You dont want an amateur review panel, the people must have law enforcement experience. If you accept that, then you will eventually see someone denounce that newly created review panel as biased when a ruling for anything other than avenging the loss comes out.
Well, the death's are tragic, both the one of the police shooting victim and the one of the suicidal cop. Not everyone is cut out for being a cop, but there is no sure fire, non-controversial way to decide which citizens should be given that authority. Nor is there any sure fire way to ensure that they continue to be the same person you thought you hired in the first place. Cops know which amongst them is the weakest link, supervisors try to get those guys off the beat, but you can only have so many dispatchers in a precinct. And then there is the desire of many cops to get off the beat themselves and they want that dispatcher job too. Pretty soon the chief has to use what he's got.
I'll tell you what I find fascinating. It's watching people lose their innocence when they begin to realize how fragile the enterprise they are employed in truly is. Then they start to see how all the flaws in their own sphere of influence correlate to our government, our commerce, our food supply, our infrastructure, and begin to comprehend the fragility of our way of life.
When 20 year olds become 30 and 40 year olds and they start to become supervisors in whatever their life endeavor is, they begin to appreciate how everything gets so messed up, cause they are the ones messing it up now. Not everyone is cut out to be a supervisor, but it generally comes to most of us simply as a result of qualifications that can only accrue with age. So, in many workplaces, a system of seniority eventually comes about even if not formalized.
If you perceive the system is not working for you, you start to think that maybe you shouldn't go along with the game and start to not trust the system. Depression becomes cynicism, cynicism becomes contempt. Contempt is very dangerous.
And what do all of these ramblings got to do with cops killing? Look at the age of most of the civilian victims that find their way into the news. Many of them are kids who are far more likely to have a low tolerance for authority. Put a chip on your shoulder for any reason, and you will appear to be resisting authority to the guy with the gun. He wants to go home tonight and he may not be in a good mood or may have some life struggle that's put him in a dark place. Or maybe he's become paranoid because of some story he heard about a cop getting killed. Is there any program, process, review committee, training or equipping etc. that will remove a cop from the human condition? That's a rhetorical question. Is there anything we can do to lessen the chance that people appear threatening to an arresting officer?
I ask myself, which is the big problem that has a better chance of rehabilitation:
A) disenfranchisement of our youth and minorities B) police brutality
I vote the former. Jobs, jobs, jobs.
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| | | 1599 | Mith
ID: 8018814 Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 10:35
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Put a chip on your shoulder for any reason, and you will appear to be resisting authority to the guy with the gun. He wants to go home tonight and he may not be in a good mood or may have some life struggle that's put him in a dark place. Or maybe he's become paranoid because of some story he heard about a cop getting killed.
These are the best few sentences I've read in this forum in a while. Of course I don't believe most cops head out every day looking for minorities to harass. But that time on the job combined with the normal difficulties of life is dealt with by different people in very different ways.
Is there any program, process, review committee, training or equipping etc. that will remove a cop from the human condition? That's a rhetorical question. Is there anything we can do to lessen the chance that people appear threatening to an arresting officer?
I reject the latter question as superior to the former. The tendency of many young people to appear aggressive or threatening is every bit as much a part of the human condition as the bad day/professional burnout/fear/life struggles you cite.
I'm sorry, but the police work for us. As far as I'm concerned, when it starts to feel like the other way around, we have a terrible problem. So I'm going back to the former question, which you dismiss as rhetorical.
Is there any program, process, review committee, training or equipping etc. that will remove a cop from the human condition?
Of course there is! There is constant demand for better ways to weed out teachers (for example) who suffer eventual burnout. Why doesn't the same outcry exist for other public employees tasked with enormous (terrifying in my opinion, really) responsibility?
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| | | 1600 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 13:40
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Mith,
We're in violent agreement here. My contention is that it's the cop, the youth, the minority who are all victims of the human condition. Much of the friction between the cops and the people is that the people are disenfranchised and angry, while the cops bear the brunt of this discontent. The cops in-turn become angry and they have to fight harder to maintain their cool in face of disgruntled citizens while still trying to do the thing we all deem essential...maintain the peace.
Fix the core problem. Improve the human condition.
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| | | 1601 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 14:04
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What you think you know about me is that I was an Air Force officer and therefore I must be a right wing a$$hole.
What you dont know about me is that after my first tour of duty in business college, and before I joined the Air Force, I worked for the city of Cleveland in the department that adminsiterd the CETA program for our city under the Kucinich administration (google it). That should tell you somethng about my politics, my experience with dealing with community leaders, and my ability to not be killed by people who dont like me. I am not a Dixiecat, nor am I the heartless a$$hole that you find it convenient to see me as. I just want us all to get along, not be lazy and not be greedy. Kum bai ya
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| | | 1602 | Mith
ID: 8018814 Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 14:20
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What you think you know about me is that I believe you are a right wing a-hole.
What you don't know about me is that I am not nearly so presumptuous as you clearly are.
No Bean, I don't claim to know your politics, much less your opinion of mine.
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| | | 1603 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 15:54
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We've been down this path before in our American History. There have been accusations of police brutality targeted at minorities and youth before. We've all seen the toll on both the Viet Nam vet, and the war protestor when the volume is raised to that of gunfire too.
We've seen it and we did something about it. We've done minority hiring preferences, we've done sensitivity training, we've created Maranda laws, Internal Affairs departments etc. Its not a perfect system of checks and balances, but we did manage to get one in place. Instead of re-inventing the wheel, tweak that which is there already to your liking, but dont throw the baby out with the bath water. It will never be perfect.
The real problem is the lack of jobs for youth and minorities. That's what I said when I started the Ferguson thread and I still stand by that position. The rest is just noise, though I doubt the families involved see it that way.
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| | | 1604 | Mith
ID: 8018814 Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 09:17
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Instead of re-inventing the wheel, tweak that which is there already to your liking, but dont throw the baby out with the bath water. It will never be perfect.
WTF are you talking about here? Who is reinventing the wheel? We agree some LEOs are not well suited for working with the public. Should we not always be looking for better ways to make that assessment, to better weed out those most likely to endanger themselves, their colleagues and the public they serve?
Or is what you're objecting the notion that perhaps there should be another layer of oversight, prepared to react to situations where that fraternal sense of camaraderie becomes an obstruction to the process of mitigating abuse and misconduct from within?
The real problem is the lack of jobs for youth and minorities.
No there are a lot of problems. And only some of them are tied to race.
You do realize you are the one who insists on keeping race as the focus of this discussion, right?
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| | | 1605 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 13:50
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Mith, look at the report that bili linked....thats where oversight ends. Yet when the rulings come down, people complain that's not good enough. There are calls for improving the oversight that currently exists, not just in this forum but in the public.
So, tweak it, but you wont accomplish much. You have to fix the root problem not just put bandaids on something that is near to as good as it will ever be.
My real concern is that a large part of the Democratic party will be obsessed with this issue and make it the central plank of the platform. That will only increase the divide within the party, but it will also chase moderate Republicans and independents away. Even if you are successful in changing the oversight, your gains will be small.
Jobs is a unifying theme on both sides of the aisle.
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| | | 1606 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Tue, Jan 20, 2015, 16:58
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People will continue the bashing until bad cops [like bad teachers] actually get removed instead of coddled by those charged to oversee them.
The current situation is nowhere close to passing the smell test, Bean.
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| | | 1607 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Tue, Jan 20, 2015, 18:50
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Better get out the air freshener then Baldy, and good luck. Big waste of time, but it will make a few people feel better about themselves.
My wife's a retired elementary teacher BTW, so the analogy has a different meaning to me. Looks like another witch hunt in my eyes.
All too easy to blame faceless government officials for the demise of the American fabric.
Its the TSA who is to blame for the long lines in airports, right? Those darn lazy road workers are causing traffic jams too. DMV workers are just a bunch of lazy good for nothings, am I right? Dont they know they work for me? And those soldiers, send those guys to the front now, why the hell did they join if they didnt want to die for their country. Whiny bastards.
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| | | 1608 | Tree
ID: 161036918 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 09:17
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the militarization of our police force is what's scary.
to me, it was an over reaction to events. do i want our police caught off guard like they were during the infamous North Hollywood shootout in the late 1990s? no.
but i don't think the overall overreaction and overgearing is necessary.
it's created a police force that is less about "protect and serve" and seems to be more "intimidate and scare."
i don't see a cop and breathe a sigh of relief that he or she is there to protect me; rather, i hold my breathe and hope he or she doesn't come after me for something i didn't do.
we live in fear of our police. it shouldn't be that way.
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| | | 1609 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 11:33
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Do you live in fear of YOUR local police? Or do you live in fear of MY local police? If its yours that scares you, its your issue and not a federal one unless you want to make it one. Your local government can be investigated by the DoJ.
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| | | 1610 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 11:47
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Travel much? Like the idea of a militant PD, stopping you for out of state plates? Window tint legal in your state, but too dark for where you are driving through?
Tree's point is entirely valid...its damn shame, when citizens are reduced to fearing LEOs. The TRULY shameful part, is that black citizens have dealt with this exact fear for YEARS. Only recently, have we whites begun to experience it as well.
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| | | 1611 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 12:03
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Sarge I was stopped last August in Wyoming while coming back from the Sturgis Rally. Try driving with Colorado plates following the legalization of Marijuana here.
The cop was stalking me and just waiting for the inevitable jerk in motion to give him probable cause. It happened as he refused to pass me just before my lane ended. Gave him probable cause. He came up to the window and immediately put me on the defensive citing a chip in the window.
Nice guy on the highway alone, forced by his local government to generate as much revenue as possible from the annual event by harassing those seedy biker types. He was more scared than I was. His biggest concern was whether or not we were dealing and whether or not me or my companions might be packing. My buddy got ticketed for the joint he was smoking just before I got pulled over.
I feel your pain brotha. But it was a legal bust. I'm still going back this year. Just saying.
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| | | 1613 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 13:00
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So, nothing in this description tells you that Tulyoganov might be angry with the cop before he even comes up to the window? Nothing indicates to you that he may have been the problem there?
OK, big boy. Put those big boy pants on, one leg at a time.
Did you see the routine that Larry Wilmore is doing...keeping it 100? Pretty funny stuff.
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| | | 1614 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 13:30
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nothing in his demeanor or voice, indicate any degree of anger at all. You're reaching Bean.
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| | | 1615 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 13:35
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Invoking 5th ammendment for a traffic ticket? You sure we want to go there as a society?
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| | | 1616 | Tree
ID: 161036918 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 13:39
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Do you live in fear of YOUR local police? Or do you live in fear of MY local police? If its yours that scares you, its your issue and not a federal one unless you want to make it one. Your local government can be investigated by the DoJ.
i have not had a moving violation in a vehicle in 20 years, and have never been pulled over speeding in my nearly half century on this planet.
i got pulled over a few months ago for rolling through a stop sign right in front of a cop.
he left his notebook in the car, and was too lazy to go back and get it, so when attempting to WRITE MY NAME ON HIS HAND so he could go back to his car and look me up, he decided it was a pain in the ass, and let me go.
i know how to behave when a cop pulls me over. i'm calm, roll the window down, and put my hands where he can see them, especially at night.
but it doesn't mean a cop knows how to behave when he or she pulls me over.
and that's my fear. too many times, cops have done the wrong thing, acted the wrong way, and done something like pull someone over for something asinine (not in this case.).
many police in this country are in cars that are sleek, vaguely marked or completely unmarked, and they hide and lurk in the shadows.
those cops aren't there to serve me, nor protect me.
those cops are laying in wait, trying to trick me, sneak up on me, and come after me for something i may or may not have done.
it's not on me. it's on the system our police have created for themselves.
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| | | 1617 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 13:45
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re 1615....SCOTUS, made it necessary to state it. It is no longer assumed, that silence means invoking of that right. Blame SCOTUS, not society.
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| | | 1619 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 14:11
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The need for revenue was not invented by the cops. Few enjoy that duty.
There are lots of laws that most of us break daily without even realizing it. For example, fact is when you are going the speed limit on most highways, you are the problem, not the guy keeping with the speed of the traffic around him.
Rolling stops is something almost everyone does, it started when we relaxed the laws to allow right on red at the same time we started putting more stop signs in drive through neighborhoods to keep the riff raff out and protect our kids who are in the street. You are less likely to have a rolling stop in your own neighborhood, cause "what would the neighbors think". That profile might help a cop protect and serve you, as it keeps strangers out of the neighborhood. But this example is with state police on a highway.
As the cop said, this entire thing could have been avoided if the jerk hadn't refused to give his true address, arousing suspicion on the part of the cop. To me, the cops kept their cool, despite the lack of cooperation the kid was presenting. The kid sounded a little high to me, though it may appear to me that way because of his accent, his speech was slow.
Next time you ask your kid where he was when he comes in late and he tells you its none of your business. Tell me what your response is.
Keep it 100
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| | | 1620 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 14:29
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What does dont you f***ing move mean? None of us can see what the cop is seeing. If we could, we may literally "see" things differently.
We got a different camera angle? What are they saying in the replay booth? Call on the field is shoot.
I couldn't tell, was the shooting cop black?
Keep it 100
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| | | 1621 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 15:20
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Ya know, I hear you guys saying there are too many guns in the hands of lunatics and its making us all vulnerable. I also hear you say that the cops are being too mean to these guys with the guns. How come they arent dying for us so we can do wtf we want anytime we want? And where are they when we really need them, at the donut shop and the speed trap?
Then you start whining about some kid who doesnt want to pay a traffic ticket and starts invoking law that was never intended for his use in that scenario. And you actually expect anyone to take you seriously?
WTF do you expect...really? Teach your kids the right way to behave, and expect the same from your neighbor. And for god's sake show some respect.
Dont be such pussies and get out there and do the job yourselves. There's a shortage of uniformed corpses in the morgue that need replacement. Bunch of whiny, pant soiling bastards.
Being 100 now
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| | | 1622 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 15:26
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And get off my lawn, punk
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| | | 1623 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 16:27
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the guy was told to get out of the car...
Get out of the car...dont flkng move...get out of the car...
scared shitless cop who panicked...dead citizen results..
dirty shoot, and all too common
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| | | 1624 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 20:01
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Yeah, it kinda looked that way to me too sarge, but if I said anything negative, I'd risk being branded a racist since this is the first black cop we've brought to light. The camera leaves a bit to your imagination, so its all about the audio. Any shoot will be investigated by trained people who know the parameters and can apply them consistently. It's a new one, in yet another jurisdiction.
Not sure what the threshold of all too common is, never seen anyone try to define that, other than to say one is too many. It's kinda like that book "the Jungle" how many rat hairs is too many in a ton of grain? Oh, wait, was that what that book was about?
My correlation of all the events that we have discussed, is that there are three of four elements involved in each. A cop, a suspect, resisting arrest and possession of arms. You want to stay alive around a nervous cop, try making sure these aren't available elements of your encounter, you might want to ensure there is no suspect if you are looking for the best one to avoid. Now let's leave this for some idiots on some forum to debate as if their lives depended on it before the experts weigh in.
Got any like Baldy suggests, you know intentional pre-meditated executions? Should be great to watch, right?
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| | | 1625 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 20:29
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Not to be confused with Arkansides.
I have not suggested in this thread that regular cops engage in deliberate premeditated murder.
Unlike Bill Clinton's bodyguards. I offer them no such slack.
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| | | 1626 | Bean
ID: 121011511 Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 23:31
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You are correct Baldy, wasnt executions it was torture you talked about, darn alzheimers:
"Nineteen years of false convictions and torture."
Got any film footage for our enjoyment? Wait there may be a problem with net neutrality and our ability to watch it. It's a conspiracy to not let us see the footage.
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| | | 1627 | Mith
ID: 3692387 Thu, Jan 22, 2015, 09:07
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Regarding the video in 1618 - the passenger was never told to get out of the car.
The passenger was fidgeting and for some reason told the officer that he was going to get out of the car and the officer screamed back no you're not, no you're not, don't fvcking move".
The guy came out anyway, having to force the door open against the cop's body. Hands were up when he was shot but it happened very quickly.
I don't know enough about proper police procedure to know whether or not it was a "clean shoot" but the officer did not give contradictory instructions.
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| | | 1628 | bibA
ID: 24043919 Thu, Jan 22, 2015, 11:51
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I think I did hear the officer on the driver's side yelling at the beginning "get him out of the car."
The other cop was pretty damn hyper, possibly too nervous to be a good cop.
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| | | 1629 | Mith
ID: 3692387 Thu, Jan 22, 2015, 11:53
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Endeavoring to move the police abuse discussion to it's own thread. My phone gets a bit temperamental when I use it to post in threads this big.
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| | | 1651 | Seattle Zen
ID: 1610533022 Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 00:48
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People, this thread is CLOSED, too long, GO HERE
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