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| Posted by: Perm Dude
- [3210201915] Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 00:28
Might as well have a place to put them. One of the latest:
"Obama has no jobs plan"
Later in the same speech:
"After three and half years people have figured out this is Obama's economy, not George Bush's economy," Romney said. "And, he blames Congress, he goes after Congress, but we remember the president's own party had a super majority in both houses for his first two years, so you can hardly blame Congress for the faults that he's put in place himself, and so he's casting about looking for someone to blame and just hasn't been able to find anybody - whether it's the ATM machines or the tsunami or Europe."
No, Mitt, I don't remember this. Maybe because it isn't true. He never had a supermajority in the House. And he had a supermajority for about 7 weeks in the Senate, during which he still continued to try to negotiate with Republicans. |
| | | 1 | Tree
ID: 17039238
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 10:20
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And he had a supermajority for about 7 weeks in the Senate, during which he still continued to try to negotiate with Republicans.
not really the thread for this discussion, but to me, this was a mistake. the current group of Robopublicans would never negotiate. Compromise is a bad word to them, and Ronald Reagan would have been drummed out of the party and labeled a RINO for his understanding of, and desire to, compromise.
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| | | 2 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 10:49
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Obama is more like Reagan than the GOP would ever admit. Obama knows that legislation rammed through always bites people in the ass later.
Unfortunately, when you have a party intent on nothing but uncooperation, this is what you get...
I see Andrew Sullivan started this as well (listing the lies as they come in)--making it look like this thread is a copy cat. Ooops.
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| | | 3 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 11:11
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GOTCHA! PD is Andrew Sullivan!
I think that you are right that Obama has more similarities to Reagan than the GOP will ever admit. Willing to compromise with the opposing party and willing to disappoint his own party as a result of the compromising. But the revistionist historians of the right will never see it that way.
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| | | 4 | Boldwin
ID: 1557712
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 12:32
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Obama is more like Reagan than the GOP would ever admit.
Preposterous. Ludicrous. As a&&backwards as it is humanly possible to be.
The only similarity is being a good communicator.
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| | | 5 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 12:39
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Obama knows that legislation rammed through always bites people in the ass later.
Didn't they end up ramming through Obamacare?
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| | | 6 | DWetzel
ID: 49962710
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 12:42
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If by "ramming through" you mean "passed it after months of debate and a bunch of changes to get enough votes to get it passed", then yes, they rammed it through.
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| | | 7 | biliruben
ID: 41431323
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 12:50
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Baldwin is right. Obama is far more fiscally "responsible" than Reagan, to the detriment of the economy and the American People.
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| | | 8 | Boldwin
ID: 1557712
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 12:56
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You guys are living in an alternate universe.
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| | | 9 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 13:22
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In other words: "Don't mess with my political Jesus. My myths are my own."
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| | | 11 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 13:53
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Speaking to an audience at USAA, an insurance and financial services company headquartered in San Antonio, Romney cited a book, "The Escape Artists: How Obama's Team Fumbled the Recovery," by the liberal journalist Noam Scheiber. In the book, Scheiber discussed Obama's thinking on the question of whether, early in his term, to focus more attention on passing a national health care law or to devote more energy to bringing about economic recovery. As Scheiber put it, Obama saw health care as a bigger long-term accomplishment.
Scheiber recently wrote that Romney is "misreading" his book. But Scheiber's explanation essentially conceded that Romney is, in fact, reading the passage correctly.
So looking at the title of this thread? Are you arguing that Romney is lieing?
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| | | 12 | Tree
ID: 37226713
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 13:58
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You guys are living in an alternate universe.
Yes. It's called "reality". You should try it some time.
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| | | 14 | Khahan
ID: 39432178
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 14:40
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If by "ramming through" you mean "passed it after months of debate and a bunch of changes to get enough votes to get it passed", then yes, they rammed it through.
Please don't make it sound so noble. Obamacare was a joke to pass at the time it did. Now, let me be clear - no just because its obama's solution. It was a joke because every solution being proposed (if memory recalls we had the ryan plan, obamacare and a multitude of others) were a complete joke.
Everybody at the time agreed the healthcare system needed overhauled. But nobody could agree on how to do it. It was railroaded thru because the dems had the power in congress to railroad it thru despite popular belief that there was no real viable solution.
Rather than congress sitting down and realizing that the American public as a whole didn't want ANY of their solutions and trying to figure out a whole new concept, they just took their version and did it.
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| | | 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 17:25
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It would have been a much better piece of legislation if the GOP hadn't decided to sit on their hands. It seems to me that the final law would have reflected more American's desires if only the GOP hadn't decided to abdicate their responsibilities when it came to working with the President on this issue.
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| | | 16 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 17:47
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Bingo.
It's dumb to call it "ramming through" when the conversation went:
"Hey, we have this piece of legislation that we want to pass that will improve things."
"It sucks, go away."
"OK, well, help us make it better."
"Screw off."
What the hell are the viable options at that point?
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| | | 17 | Khahan
ID: 54138190
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 20:31
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The GOP was busy with their own ideas of what would work. The whole healthcare debacle was a perfectly clear example of everything wrong in our political system. Both sides acted equally shameful. Both sides held the other hostage to their own goals. Both sides played in partisanship politics putting party ideals and personal interests ahead of actually helping anybody. And both sides had complete crap to offer. The only difference is that one side had a majority vote and abused it.
I already know your answer to that because we've been down this road before with almost this exact conversation. But the true and honest facts are both sides are equally culpable of strong-arming their positions. Its just that one side had a better grasp on power.
The 'it sucks go away' was a 2 way street.
What the hell are the viable options at that point?
The viable options were to step back, look at the attitude of America in general to both sides and realize that neither side had a good answer and start over again.
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| | | 18 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 21:16
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The GOP was busy with their own ideas of what would work.
That might be true, but they gave no indication of this being the case, and refused to bring forth their own ideas when given the chance, time after time, over a period of months.
In general, legislation put through without any input by the other side is bad. When the GOP had the power they literally told the Dems not to show up (which made for bad laws). When the Dems had the power, the GOP said they weren't going to bother showing up.
This is hardly a "pox on both your houses" kind of thing.
As for viable options, most of the health care law was, and continues to be, incredibly popular. The individual mandate (the mechanism to pay for it) is not.
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| | | 19 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 21:19
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Should also throw out there that the health care law is one of Obama's campaign promises--he was very clear throughout his campaign of what he wanted to do and he was elected (along with huge Democratic majorities). I fail to see why Obama, with a clear mandate and polling showing his position to be the one citizens backed, should have to "step back."
Elections have consequences.
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| | | 20 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 22:17
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"The only difference is that one side had a majority vote and abused it."
I'm completely certain that you just described exactly how bills get passed like, literally, ALL THE TIME. I think I can even remember the Schoolhouse Rock song.
Why is it "abusing the majority vote" when something you don't like gets passed, and "how government works" when other bills get passed every day on strict party lines? Was every single vote of the last House of Representatives "abusing it"?
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| | | 21 | Khahan
ID: 54138190
Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 01:05
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polling showing his position to be the one citizens backed
Not really. At the time there were polls showing support for obamacare was below 50%. And dwetzel, yes bills get passed like that all the time. But not necessarily when faced with the public outcry against them that obamacare had. My whole point was the only thing people agreed upon was that fixing is needed. But there was such heavy division on how to accomplish those fixes that both sides should have understood there was still a lot of work to do.
Here's a link showing only 48% public support and that is after support grew some.
Here's another one that shows as high as 47% and as low as 32% supporting obamacare in 2010.
And here is one from Feb 24, 2010 that shows 25% of the public favor congress continuing to work on the democratic plan. (follow the link inside of this link and you'll actually see the questions asked)
You guys can try rose-colored glasses and revisionist history all you want. The facts are straightforward - the public which congress is supposed to represent was highly split on this issue. Split so much that to me, congress never should have passed ANY of the bills presented at the time. And yes PD, Republicans put bills out there too. Unfortunately they were just as ridiculous and off-base as obama's plan.
Again, I'm not contending its horrible because its obama's and the republicans were right. I'm contending they were all wrong and they all failed to recognize that the majority of the country felt they were wrong. I'm contending they played politics for personal gain and political support with one of the most far reaching and important issues our country has going on at this time. Im contending they were all wrong, both sides. Both missed the mark and both were so wrapped up in their own agendas that they were blind to this fact.
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| | | 22 | Boldwin
ID: 1557712
Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 01:52
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Elections have consequences.
Recall efforts?
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| | | 24 | sarge33rd
ID: 34536813
Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 14:19
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yes Khahan, there were numerous polls that showed people against "Obamacare", as it was portrayed by the nr1 cable "news" outlet in the nation. When however people were asked about "Are in favor of or opposed to...", and then an action which was in fact a component of Obamacare was stated, overwhelmingly, people were in support of it and surprised to find out THAT, was what Obamacare did.
There was at the time, much to do in the press about "they were against it before they were for it", 'they' referring to the general public pre and post informed about the truth of Obamacare.
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| | | 25 | Khahan
ID: 54138190
Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 16:25
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Of course there is support for components. Its so broad and far reaching and has so many different components that some of it will stick.
That doesn't mean that as a whole the package is good. I still maintain that obamacare does not fix a thing. It just shifts the same system or changes the window dressing, so to speak. Obamacare, romneycare, the ryan plan...not a single one really, truly addressed the problems of health care. They just go after the symptoms.
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| | | 26 | Boldwin
ID: 1557712
Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 17:05
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As if having legal parasites wasn't bad enuff...
When are we going to learn that leeches are bad medicine?
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| | | 27 | Razor
ID: 551031157
Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 17:08
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How can you say that, Khahan? I am not as convinced any more that Obamacare will address health care costs, but it absolutely addressed some serious problems in the previous system - namely guaranteeing insurance coverage for all and closing the Medicare doughnut hole, among others.
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| | | 28 | sarge33rd
ID: 34536813
Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 17:12
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Nothing, is going to fix everything. But with 2:3 personal BKs being healthcare cost driven, and with Obamacare expanding coverage to include HUGE numbers of currently uninsured; it addresses IMHO, the most immediate concerns.
I doubt, that anything much that is shy of true universal healthcare (ala the Swedish system for ex), is going to truly "fix it", and the GOP will simply never allow such a thing in this country.
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| | | 29 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 13:16
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Romney claim about Obamacare gets Four Pinocchios
I don't know if this is a "lie" so much as a confusing mishmash of statistics designed to confuse. It reminds me of the cartoon in which a politician loudly and angrily calls his opponent a homo sapien.
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| | | 30 | sarge33rd
ID: 34536813
Thu, Jun 14, 2012, 13:47
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Mitt on CNN right now. Not really "lies" per se, but loaded questions/challenges to no end.
He is saying, "Go ask people who run the coal industry, about The Presidents policies and how they impact their ability to hire. Go talk to people who run the natural gas industry..." etc etc etc
Why not be honest Mitt? Why not say, "Go ask Republicans, what they think of the Presidents policies?"
The leaders in those industries, are predominantly Republican. So what would their responses be? Well, duh.
Lies? Not really. Dishonest? I think so.
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| | | 31 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Thu, Jun 14, 2012, 15:03
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That's par for the course. Certainly not lies, but Romney will have to shade things to make his opponent look worse than he is.
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| | | 32 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Thu, Jun 14, 2012, 15:49
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No offense, but who was the last politician who didn't do that? I'm not arguing that it is right, just that it is reality.
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| | | 33 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Thu, Jun 14, 2012, 16:17
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Re 30: that would seem to lead to a bigger problem which implies that there is no impartial opinion on who has done good or not. A bit off topic here but it seems this is problem of bigger picture problem with American politics everyone seems to have an agenda, how should I ever know anything.
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| | | 34 | sarge33rd
ID: 34536813
Thu, Jun 14, 2012, 17:02
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quite true boikin. I think history will forever shade GWBs terms, as when the utter devisiveness in American politics, took its turn into the realm of gawd-awful ugly. Perhaps, Rove/Cheney/Rumsfeld will ultimately deserve the lions share of the blame, as many of us saw GWB as little more than a puppet head, being plied by the three masters.
I find it ironic, that the GOP now claims Obama to be the most devisive President in American history. Odd how they didnt feel that way, when they were doing the dividing.
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| | | 35 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 11:34
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It is all a bit self-fulfilling, isn't it?
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