Forum: pol
Page 3647
Subject: SCOTUS Obamacare watch


  Posted by: Perm Dude - [3210201915] Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 18:01

Tomorrow SCOTUS is scheduled to release its decision on Obamacare. With such a divisive and close court, it would be foolish for me to predict what they will say but I'm curious what others think if SCOTUS, for instance, upholds Obamacare but knocks out the individual mandate? Or what do you think will happen if they knock the whole thing out--what will be the GOP response to the ending of a number of parts of Obamacare which have proven to be extremely popular.

Thoughts?
 
1sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 18:07
*IF* they knockout the mandate:

Insurance premiums will SKYROCKET. Remove a companies ability to deny coverage because an applicant already has cancer, and the cost of that coverage has to be spread amongst existing policy holders.Look then, for the rolls of the uninsured, to surge heavily upward.

Frankly, while this SHOULD be a hard hit against the GOP; the GOP spin machine is superb at ducking blame and casting it where it doesnt deserve to be. This happens, and Obama may well lose his bid for re-election.

If they let the mandate stand (and I still thin they will. Your comment yesterday PD, was the 2nd one I had hear inferring that Scalia was ALL bent out of shape over losing the vote on health care), then it is a HUGE win for the Democrats. Obama wins handily, the Dems retake the House and close in on a super majority in the Senate. Rush, Beck, AC, O'Reilly...blow gaskets and ERUPT all over the airwaves with allegations of "activist judges".
 
2Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 18:46
What makes me pessimistic.

1) SCOTUS dodges anything they can rationalize because figuring these issues out is hard hard work. I predict they will dodge the mandate issue until someone sues the government for having already been penalized for failing to purchase insurance.

2) Roberts, I believe, was hand-selected by Bush to ease the merging of American law with international law. It hasn't been obvious so far but this would be one of those opportunities.
 
3Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 18:52
I don't know, Boldwin: I think both sides really want to tackle this issue--I can't see them dodging it, though I can see how they might come up with a muddled mess in trying to figure it out.

I was struck how difficult they seem to be figuring it out during oral argument, however, as if they hadn't really read the whole thing. And some of the questions seemed odd to me, along the same line (as it they hadn't really read it). Maybe they were just testing the lawyers, I dunno.

I know I said I wouldn't predict the outcome, but I will predict a minimum of 3 different responses (one majority opinion, and at least two minority opinions).
 
4Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 19:45
Andrew Sullivan with some predictions of others.

As expected, the predictions are a mixed lot!
 
5Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 09:27
I was glancing at CNN while having dinner with my wife last night, and I thought I saw a slide that said if the mandate didn't pass, premiums would increase by 2.4%.

I'm with PD. There is no ruling that would surprise me with this case.
 
6Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 10:24
Supreme Court upholds entire health care law

Chief Justice John Roberts puts the law above politics. Kudos to him. i'm sure he'll be demonized by the American Right from this point forward.
 
7biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 10:28
Face in our great nation is restored.
 
8Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 10:30
faith, even? ;o)

and i agree. it is nice, for once, to see politics put aside, in the name of what built this nation in the first place.
 
9biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 10:35
faith/shmaith. ;)
 
10Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 11:10
And that is what you get when you elect RINO's.
 
11Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 11:12
lol
 
12Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 11:14
I don't think the article in #6 is entirely correct. I want to read the ruling itself but I understand they tossed out some portions of the Medicaid changes that were part of the ACA.

Overall, we're going to get Tea Party effigy burning parties throughout the summer, I think. But I also think that we were going to get millions of upset Americans no matter how this ruling went.
 
13DWetzel
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 11:27
"And that is what you get when you elect RINO's. "

D- trolling effort. Would have given it an F but the humor value of you thinking of them "electing" the Supreme Court justices gives it a certain chuckle factor.
 
14Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 11:43
I just saw this on my twitter feed and thought I would share.

Sen #Obama in '05:"I will be voting against John Roberts' nomination. I do so with considerable reticence. I hope that I am wrong."


PD. It looks like you were correct that the law would have been legal if it was written as a tax. Roberts just saved a couple of years of time.
 
15Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 11:44
Haters gotta hate. Over the next couple of weeks we're going to see them turn it up to 12 (they are already at 11).
 
16Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 12:03
I, for one, can't wait to be on a Death Panel.
 
17Razor
      ID: 105152811
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 12:15
I hope the GOP talks about repealing this til November. If there is one thing that America likes, it's a winner. I don't think the people have a high tolerance for repeated attacks against the same piece of legislation after the SCOTUS declared it exactly what the GOP has been saying it's not.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know why this law sticks in the GOP's craw so much. Is it really that objectionable? I get that it is controversial (in spite of various Republicans over the years proposing various parts of it or even all of it) and I get that they would oppose anything Obama and Pelosi crammed down their throats. But at what point do they say, hey, let's just try to make this thing better instead of continuing to talk about repealing it or overturning it?
 
18Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 12:50
I, for one, can't wait to be on a Death Panel.

LMAO. Where is your Mao hat, son? You've got a lot of indoctrination ahead of you yet... patience, young panelist.
 
19Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 12:57
do they say, hey, let's just try to make this thing better instead of continuing to talk about repealing it or overturning it?

No we'll keep electing and kicking them out until we get lawmakers who'll do what they are told...and the RINO's will keep on stabbing us in the back until we run out of them.
 
20Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 12:58
Actually, we got the ACA because of lawmakers who did what they were told.
 
21sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 13:07
True PD, and B? Your "side" had little input, because they chose instead to pout on the sides and oppose vs work with and contribute to.
 
22Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 13:14
The only good piece of socialist legislation is a dead piece of socialist legislation.
 
23sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 13:18
there ya go again, trotting out those same old labels, even though they are wrong, as wrong can be.

And FTR, socialism as a theory is a VERY Christian ideal. No one goes without, no one goes hungry. So what exactly IS your problem with reality B?
 
25Boldwin
      ID: 225162520
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 13:39
Sarge

And FTR, socialism as a theory is a VERY Christian ideal. No one goes without, no one goes hungry.

As an historical fact (as opposed to theory) on the otherhand under socialism everyone goes hungry when they run out of other people's money except the corrupt party insiders at the top.
 
26sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 13:40
looking at the past 10 years, how is that any different from capitalism?
 
27sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 13:57
What the ACA means for YOU.. (non political no doubt over simplified) estimate:

link
 
28Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 14:17
 
31Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 16:58
Wonder where FOX Nation got their headline from? It certainly isn't in the story.
 
34Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 19:13
I found this rather funny. Of course, around here, we all ARE Constitution scholars and what were are witnessing today is some muted celebration from some and some regular 'ol Baldwin being Baldwin.

 
38sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 23:01
Rand Paul proves he's an idiot

“Just because a couple people on the Supreme Court declare something to be ‘constitutional’ does not make it so. The whole thing remains unconstitutional,” Paul said in a statement.
 
40Boldwin
      ID: 355262822
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 06:43
According to the highly regarded Volokh Conspiracy blog, it now looks pretty conclusive that:

1) Roberts was the swing vote.

2) Roberts at some point late in the process switched to the Obama team.

3) Making my point#2 in post#2 look dead on the money.
 
41sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 06:46
took you a whole day to realize your point 1 in post 40, and then you go on to congratulate yourself?
 
42Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 10:26

 
43Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 12:55
I think Roberts did change his mind at some point. I would love to know why, but the fact that he was the only justice to call the mandate penalty a "tax" might be a clue.

In fact, if you read Scalia's dissent, much of it reads like a majority opinion piece. I'm thinking that Roberts signed onto an early draft of it, then changed his mind and Scalia had to re-write it a bit.
 
44Boldwin
      ID: 205542912
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 14:01
Simply a fraud perpetrated on the American people. - Andrew C. McCarthy, former federal prosecutor
Let’s say that, back when I was a prosecutor, I tried and convicted a man on a charge of conspiring to sell narcotics. I can prove he was conspiring, but it was really to sell stolen property. I convict him but, on appeal, the court holds, “The prosecutor’s evidence that it was drugs the defendant conspired to sell is wholly lacking.” At that point, the conviction has to be dismissed, and if I want to try him a second time, this time for conspiring to sell stolen property, I’ve got to indict him and start the whole process over again.

Let’s suppose, however, that the appeals court instead said, “Eh, drugs, stolen property, what’s the big whup? You just wrote the wrong commodity into the indictment. So let’s not bother with a whole new trial at which you’d have to prove the correct charge to a jury. Let’s just rewrite the indictment and pretend that it says ‘stolen property’ instead of ‘narcotics.’ Then we can uphold the conviction and call it a day.”

That would never be permitted to happen — not even to a crook of whose guilt we were certain. It would be an outrageous violation of due process, a conviction obtained by false pretenses, that would not be allowed to stand.

Yet this is essentially what Chief Justice Roberts & Co. did. They said the American people are not entitled to an honest legislative process, one in which they can safely assume that when Congress intentionally uses words that have very different meanings and consequences — like tax and penalty — and when Congress adamantly insists that the foundation of legislation is one and not the other, the Court will honor, rather than rewrite, the legislative process. Meaning: if Congress was wrong, the resulting law will be struck down, and Congress will be told that, if it wants to pass the law, it has to do it honestly.

Just as an appeals court may not legitimately rewrite an indictment and revise what happened at a trial, neither may it legitimately rewrite a statute and fabricate an imaginary congressional record. But today, the Supreme Court rewrote a law — which it has no constitutional authority to do — and treated it as if it were forthrightly, legitimately enacted. Further, it shielded the political branches from accountability for raising taxes, knowing full well that, had Obama and the Democrats leveled with the public that ObamaCare entailed a huge tax hike, it would never have had the votes to pass...

Meanwhile our country, trillions of dollars in debt and rapidly sinking further, desperately needs a debate about the limits of Congress’s power to tax and spend for the general welfare...

During the New Deal, under FDR’s court-packing threats, the Supreme Court adopted Hamilton’s view — enabling Congress to enact the New Deal, the Great Society, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and innumerable other programs for which there is no enumerated power in the Constitution. These programs are unsustainable and leading us over the economic cliff, besides intruding on the domain of state power. Had ObamaCare been honestly presented as a tax, or had the Court acted properly by striking it down as an illegitimate use of the commerce power and telling Congress that if it wanted to pass the bill as a tax it would have to pass the bill as a tax, our dire financial straits might have forced this much needed debate about the limits of congressional welfare power.

We have now lost that opportunity through fraud: fraud in the legislative action, and fraud in the judicial review. Due process would not allow this to be done to a criminal, but the Supreme Court has decided that Americans will have to live with it.
 
45Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 14:04
Ha! He would have been perfectly happy to have had it go the other way, despite the lack of an "honest legislative process" (which has never otherwise been a goal of the Right).
 
46sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 14:35
GOP needs to be thankful it wasnt completely overturned. Had it been, when they lose their House Maj this fall, the next version of the ACA would have gone MUCH further left than this one did.
 
47Tree
      ID: 29522914
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 15:07
Andrew C. McCarthy

pro-water boarding and thinks it's not torture.

wrote in 2008 that Obama wasn't serious about protecting the United States against radical Islam.

also wrote I believe that the issue of Obama's personal radicalism, including his collaboration with radical, America-hating Leftists, should have been disqualifying.

i don't care what he did, with beliefs like that, he's not that credible to me.

 
48DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 16:59
Ah, the sweet, sweet tears of conservative whiners. They taste goooooooood.

(I'd post the picture here, but apparently it's somehow offensive.)
 
49Mith
      ID: 6542817
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 17:04
pro-water boarding and thinks it's not torture.

wrote in 2008 that Obama wasn't serious about protecting the United States against radical Islam.


A centrist!
 
50Tree
      ID: 255172917
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 18:19
wrote in 2008 that Obama wasn't serious about protecting the United States against radical Islam.

A centrist!


a centrist indeed!

Even four years later, Conservatives in this country are so spineless and so neutered, they can't even give credit where credit is due. they lack the balls to even acknowledge it.
 
51Mith
      ID: 6542817
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 21:52
Jonathan Chait 6/25
Opponents of the law have endlessly invoked “socialism.” Nothing in the Affordable Care Act or any part of President Obama’s challenges the basic dynamics of market capitalism. All sides accept that some of us should continue to enjoy vastly greater comforts and pleasures than others. If you don’t work as hard as Mitt Romney has, or were born less smart, or to worse parents, or enjoyed worse schools, or invested your skills in an industry that collapsed, or suffered any other misfortune, then you will be punished for this. Your television may be low-definition, or you might not be able to heat or cool your home as comfortably as you would like; you may clothe your children in discarded garments from the Salvation Army.

This is not in dispute. What is being disputed is whether the punishments to the losers in the market system should include, in addition to these other things, a denial of access to non-emergency medical treatment. The Republican position is that it should. They may not want a woman to have to suffer an untreated broken ankle for lack of affordable treatment. Likewise, I don’t want people to be denied nice televisions or other luxuries. I just don’t think high-definition television or nice clothing are goods that society owes to one and all. That is how Republicans think about health care.

This is why it’s vital to bring yourself face-to face with the implications of mass uninsurance — not as emotional manipulation, but to force you to decide what forms of material deprivation ought to be morally acceptable. This question has become, at least at the moment, the primary philosophical divide between the parties. Democrats will confine the unfortunate to many forms of deprivation, but not deprivation of basic medical care. Republicans will. The GOP is the only mainstream political party in the advanced world to hold this stance.


The maintenance of mass lack of access to medical care is their cause. That is why the Republicans never offered an alternative universal-health-care plan and why the Paul Ryan–authored budget they have embraced repeals Obama’s coverage subsidies and throws millions more off their Medicaid, without any replacement.

Their reason for failing to defend their actual principles is obvious enough: That tens of millions of Americans deservedly lack a right to basic medical treatment is a politically difficult proposition. Thus, they oppose Obamacare without defending the indefensible conditions they actually favor. Their tactic of adding vague gestures toward unspecified future reforms has been so successful that news reports almost uniformly describe the Republican health-care stance as yet-to-be-determined, rather than an outright defense of maintaining health care as an earned privilege rather than a right.

 
52sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 22:02
brilliant piece.
 
53Boldwin
      ID: 205542912
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 06:30
I...am uninsured. And I've seen socialist medicine. No thank you. You can keep it. Go find it somewhere else. No shortage of socialist hell-holes in the world. Go.
 
54Boldwin
      ID: 205542912
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 09:28
Perhaps President Romney merely needs to inform all parties, that Obamacare will be enforced as rigorously as the Obama administration administered the Defense of Marriage Act. Not at all.

No specified penalties will be enforced, no specified taxes collected, no death panels will have personnel assigned to them, etc.

Lawlessness worked just fine for Obama. Let's see how the left likes their tactic shoved right back in their face.
 
55sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 12:23
Proper distribution of limited enforcement assets, does not equate to lawlessness.

Your posts however, are clearly equating to "jumped the shark".
 
56DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 14:23
"I...am uninsured. And I've seen socialist medicine. No thank you. You can keep it."

Please do us all a favor and carry around a piece of paper that says you only want medical treatment up to what you can afford out of pocket (and list that amount), otherwise you would prefer to just die rather than accept any services you can't personally afford. Wouldn't want you to accidentally accept socialized medicine at an emergency room.
 
57Boldwin
      ID: 205542912
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 16:00
I'll still be held up at gunpoint to pay for medicare and I'll still insist on receiving a tiny portion of my stolen goods back.

I'll take a medical vacation and get my big problems solved by any free market medicine that survives on the planet. You can wait in line a year for a CAT scan, another year till your surgery is scheduled. Have a good death and don't blame me. I had nothing to do with your socialist nightmare.
 
58Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 17:08
You can wait in line a year for a CAT scan, another year till your surgery is scheduled. Have a good death and don't blame me. I had nothing to do with your socialist nightmare.

nor reality. while i suppose your examples above could possibly happen, they are the exception, rather than the norm.

my brother in Canada waited less than 7 months for elective and non-lifesaving surgery.

you are Chicken Little, and believe every bit of propaganda you're fed.
 
59Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 19:01
To be perfectly honest, I don't know why this law sticks in the GOP's craw so much. Is it really that objectionable?

The objectionable part to me as I've said over and over is the government saying, "buy this product or face a fine."

I got cnn at my cabin in the woods this week and watched a bit of the coverage. Basically the Justices completely dodged the issue and never ruled on it. They simply said, 'thats not what this legislation does. The legislation taxes you.'

Time to move on and deal with it. I still feel there are severely lacking issues w/ the ACA. Primarily it fails to address the true culprits that make health insurance so expensive (the health insurers themselves being one of them and probably the biggest). But other aspects of it are not so objectionable.

In otherwords, what I've been maintaining all along is still my stance. SCOTUS completely sidestepped the issue.
 
60Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 19:26
Primarily it fails to address the true culprits that make health insurance so expensive

Absolutely. Primarily, we deliver our health care through employer-purchased health care insurance. There are layers and layers of inefficiency built into the system. Wish we could start from scratch. As it it, efficiency, entrepreneurship, and innovation are discouraged in both the health care and health care insurance fields. While allowing more people to buy into the system helps solve several problems, it doesn't solve any of the inherent problems in the system.
 
61Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 19:52
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!
 
62Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 09:09
Heh. In many ways we are. After all, we're talking about companies who had to be forced, by law, to stop cutting off the insurance of their policyholders once the policyholders actually got sick and had to start drawing from it.
 
63Boldwin
      ID: 21628112
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 13:58
Rand Paul:
the decision to keep the individual health insurance mandate and impose it as a tax is “wrong for Americans. It will destroy our health care system.”
---
“Just because a couple people on the Supreme Court declare something to be ‘constitutional’ does not make it so. The whole thing remains unconstitutional,” Paul said. “While the court may have erroneously come to the conclusion that the law is allowable, it certainly does nothing to make this mandate or government takeover of our health care right.”

Paul added, “This now means we fight every hour, every day until November to elect a new President and a new Senate to repeal Obamacare.”
I believe this kick in the pants does more to energize the republican base and stimulate donations and activity, than nominating squish Romney did to hurt it.
 
64DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 14:40
"Just because a couple people on the Supreme Court declare something to be ‘constitutional’ does not make it so."

LOL Rand. Yeah, um, that's kinda their job.

Maybe he can win it on appeal.
 
65DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 14:49
Let's all point and laugh:

The 10 Most Hilariously Unhinged Right-Wing Reactions to the Obamacare Ruling
 
66Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 18:50
I don't doubt that the right wing will use this as a call to arms. The question then becomes: For a small motivated group of wingers who were already going to vote anyway, does this change the outcome of the election?

The GOP has no alternative other than the same tired "tort reform" as their response for healthy care reform--the non-wingers will have no reason to support a President Romney. In fact, as Senator McConnell pointed out today, the GOP isn't really interested in the tens of millions of uninsured in this country.
 
67sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 18:52
exactly. From MITH #51 above:

This is why it’s vital to bring yourself face-to face with the implications of mass uninsurance — not as emotional manipulation, but to force you to decide what forms of material deprivation ought to be morally acceptable. This question has become, at least at the moment, the primary philosophical divide between the parties. Democrats will confine the unfortunate to many forms of deprivation, but not deprivation of basic medical care. Republicans will. The GOP is the only mainstream political party in the advanced world to hold this stance.

Welcome to your "Grand Old Party", 2012 edition.
 
68Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 19:10
#66 Hah: "healthy care reform"

 
69Boldwin
      ID: 21628112
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 19:44
For a small motivated group of wingers who were already going to vote anyway, does this change the outcome of the election?

Ask 2010.
 
70Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 22:02
For a guy who doesn't vote, I can see why you want to protect the GOP's current fascination with being on the side of the deadbeats of the system. But if you really think the GOP will win back the Senate and the White House on this issue I'm afraid you are in for a rude awakening.

In November, I will tell you to "Ask 2012."

The GOP won in 2010 because Democrats, by and large, stayed home.
 
71sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 22:23
2010 was mid-terms, and the Dem absences from the voting polls, will hopefully awaken them. Look for the Dems to win back the House, close on a super majority in the senate, and hold the WH. My fear, is that the GOPs recently past insistance on "all or nothing" participation in the process of governing, is going to give the leftwing carte blanche. The upside of that is, the left isnt as focused, as is the GOP, on much of its "want list".
 
72Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 23:41
It should be painfully obvious that the GOP Tea Party movement has a huge problem that is fundamental in today's political world - fundraising. This is especially true in light of the SCOTUS Citizen's United decision.

Corporate interests have no desire to see successful grass roots or populist movements, be they left or right. Romney won the nomination because he raised a ton of money. None came from the Tea Party, the Christian Right, or any of what many consider "the base." It came from business and corporate entities. They like Romney because, despite his pandering to the hard right voices that dominate the conversation, he's a moderate with a track record of working with Democrats when necessary to accomplish certain goals.(See Massachusetts legislature and uber-liberal SLC mayor Rocky Anderson).

I think we're going to see more and more successful moderate Republican and Democrat candidates as the Tea Party and Occupy movement types marginalize themselves.

Finally, Romneycare is the predecessor to Obamacare, and the whole mandate thing came from the conservative Heritage Foundation as a counter to Hilarycare, so that whole line of "Marxists taking over America" really is as bad a joke as Larry the Cable Guy.
 
73Boldwin
      ID: 21628112
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 02:26
You are backing into the truth. The margins aren't the Tea Party or even the people sympathetic to the Occupy movement. The margins are where the shadowy one percent get their way 99% of the time.
 
74Boldwin
      ID: 21628112
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 02:57
And to take that point further...
  1. ...those people have synthesized marxism and capitalism into a communitarian future vision...
  2. ...where we impoverished slaves experience a world without hope but with great PR...
  3. ...and they experience the world as a corrupt Warren Buffet/Immelt/Rothschild/Mikhail Khodorkovsky/Lai Changxing/Daniel Ortega kleptocracy class...
  4. ...who alone have the privilege of engaging in a sort of capitalism...
  5. ...rich beyond measure but slaves to party ideologues...
  6. ...and the only middle class will be the bare minimum number of thug police [of the body and mind] needed to keep the prison yard peaceful for the 1% at the top...
  7. ...and they are cramming that future down our throats whether we like it or not.
 
75Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 16:25
Yup. That shark is well jumped.
 
76Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 01:11
Did Roberts write both the majority opinion, and most of the minority opinion?

It would match the narrative of Roberts changing his mind.
 
77Boldwin
      ID: 2664163
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 00:26
Just to back up #74 comes this news story today...

Russia making sure businessmen are the most terrorized sector of society.
In the last 10 years Russia has imprisoned nearly three million entrepreneurs, many unjustly. This statistic comes from a new ombudsman for business rights, Boris Titov, who says it is "hard to find another social group persecuted on such a large scale".

At the root of the problem is the criminal justice system itself. Statistically, once officially accused of a crime in Russia, there is little chance of proving your innocence. Less than 1% of all criminal cases that make it to court result in a not guilty verdict or acquittal - and that figure comes from Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev.

Critics say that in practice, if not in theory, courts operate on an assumption of guilt. The prosecution takes the word of the police, and the judge takes the word of the prosecution - no matter how unconvincing the evidence may be.

"If a person ends up in a police cell as a suspect - he will find himself in court no matter what, and the court will find him guilty. That's guaranteed," says Marat Khisamutdinov, a former police officer.

Zlobin says that in the thousands of cases he heard in the 15 years he was a judge, he only ever issued seven not guilty verdicts - and five of them were later overturned. Issuing a not guilty verdict, he says, was not only a "waste of time" it was risky.

Judges come under all kinds of pressure from the Federal Security Service, prosecutors and the chairman of the court not to acquit defendents, he says, including blackmail.
You can be the richest oil baron in the world today, stemming from nothing more than party access and favor, not business accumen...

...and be in prison tomorrow because your party rival paid a policemen a bribe to accuse you.

It's life Jim, but not as we know it.
 
78biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 10:31
Their criminal justice system leaves something to be desired, to put it mildly.
 
79Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 15:36
Rod Dreher thinking through Obamacare. From The American Conservative.
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 2664163
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 15:37
Coming to a country near you, bili. Or hadn't you noticed the marxists vilifying businessmen and handing out party favors?
 
81biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 17:57
Nope. If you want to legislate away citizen's united, you have my vote. If you want to join you in your wild-eyed hallucinations of marxists under your bed, you better share some of those good drugs.
 
82Boldwin
      ID: 2664163
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 18:15
Earl Warren, William Brennan, John Paul Stevens, David Souter—some of the most liberal justices of the postwar era were actually named by Republican presidents.

What you get when you let democrats tell you you can't nominate reliable conservatives.
 
83sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 18:36
YOUR view B, of "conservatives", would bring back the Dark Ages and the Inquisition. Thanks, but not a chance.
 
84Boldwin
      ID: 22135179
      Sun, Feb 17, 2013, 14:24
Sanguine prospects for Obamacare from the left.

Taranto discusses TalkingPointsMemo piece by congressional reporter Sahil Kapur, in the WSJ:
Kapur lists "the four biggest obstacles the law faces in meeting its key goals." Let's go through them one by one:

1) Ongoing Disapproval of the Law.
2) States Declining to Expand Medicaid.
3) States Refusing to Build Insurance Marketplaces.
4) Nullification of the Medicare Cost-Cutting Board.
The points I found most interesting or new...
The ACA [Affordable Care Act, an abbreviation for the law's formal title] lacks a funding mechanism for Department of Health and Human Services to set up exchanges for states that decline to do so themselves--and congressional Republicans are unlikely to appropriate additional money for that."

[and]

the Independent Payment Advisory Board, colloquially known as the death panel, which would recommend which medical services to deny in order to cut costs. "The problem," according to Kapur, is that "Senate Republicans can--and have signaled their intention to--filibuster nominees to the board."

But that isn't the only problem. As Kapur notes, "even some House Democrats" have voted to abolish the board. Kapur ignores another problem, reported last month by the Washington Post's Sarah Kliff: ObamaCare proponents despair of finding enough experts to serve on the 15-man panel, "a federal job where the compensation is low, the political controversy high and the ultimate payoff unclear."
 
85Boldwin
      ID: 22135179
      Sun, Feb 17, 2013, 14:28
Which leads me to an opportunity and a prediction. The lack of a funding mechanism gives the Tea Party everything they need legally to still defeat Obamacare and...

...that ratfink Boner is sure to side with the enemy. Libs here should be kissing his feet.
 
86Boldwin
      ID: 54120184
      Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 05:44
Why, how and when you will lose your company provided healthcare.
 
87biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 08:46
Nice article topic, and one I'd be very interested in. The only thing missing is the Why, How and When.

Another, "just believe me, the Apocalypse is right around the corner" article.

She seems qualified to enlighten us, but chooses not to.
 
88Boldwin
      ID: 36114188
      Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 09:17
I'm thinkin' 15 minutes and $200 would change that. 8]
 
89Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 13:49
The White House just tweeted
"The White House ‏@whitehouse 3m
FACT: Thanks to health care reform, insurance companies won't be able to charge women more than men for the same coverage. #HappyMothersDay
"

Is that really a step in the right direction? Overall, women cost more to insure is a fact. But, let's not let facts enter into a discussion where anyone who argues against it will be labeled a misogynist.
 
90Khahan
      ID: 16341313
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 14:48
Its a great, feel-good sound byte and that's all that matters Frick. All that matters.
 
91Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 16:17
Just a political point-scoring tweet. I get the point they are making (which is true, of course) but connecting it to Mother's Day is a bit sad.
 
92Seattle Zen
      ID: 3310162612
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 17:00
Is that really a step in the right direction?

No, it's a honorable goal accomplished.
 
93Frick
      ID: 157331422
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 21:21
Why is it an honorable goal? Is it honorable that males pay more for car insurance?
 
94Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 22:21
It is honorable to charge people the same rates for the same coverage.

Overall, women cost more to insure is a fact.

That's because women tend to use the system more, which results in overall better health. And that's the goal.

Even without maternity care, women were routinely charged hundreds of dollars a year more for the same exact coverage. There is little reason to be charging women 25-50% more for the same coverage other than "the insurance companies could."
 
95Boldwin
      ID: 174531013
      Sat, May 11, 2013, 07:48
That's because women tend to use the system more, which results in overall better health. And that's the goal.

The goal is for women to be healthier than men? We'll just reserve the gold-plated version for them then.
 
96Frick
      ID: 157331422
      Sat, May 11, 2013, 22:18
So are you going to join my fight to legislate the same rates for male and female drivers?
 
97Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 08:15
Any feel differently about the fact that men pay more for life insurance than women?
 
98Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 09:15
Actually frick (96) in some states at least (Pa being one where I sell insurance) gender cannot be used to determine rates for auto insurance.

97 - men pay more for life insurance because they have a shorter life expectancy which ties directly into the concept of life insurance.

The concept of charging more for health insurance based on gender is a bit of grey area. Statistically yes, women use it more often. But say for example you have a simple ER visit for an X-ray. Women don't get charged more for that just because they are women. On the micro level, any given procedure should cost the same for a man or woman. But on the macro level there are disparities in use.

Should they break it down more and say say women between the ages of 18 and 38 (the most common time frame for birth which is one of the big drivers in costs) should cost more?

 
99boikin
      ID: 430211013
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 09:57
That's because women tend to use the system more, which results in overall better health. And that's the goal.

well that is debatable, but that is another issue.

More to the topic, an exert of a conversation that explains the whole problem: I was talking to a friend(who happened to be a woman, maybe this indicative or not) and they said since they had reached there deductible all ready for the year they were maxing out what ever they can get including regularly scheduled massages at the chiropractor. And my response is and people wonder why health care was so high and they looked at me and said everyone does it. well no they don't and you might want to try telling someone who can not afford health care that you enjoyed your free massages.
 
100Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 10:44
99 - and that is exactly the kind of situation that makes me rail against socialized healthcare. One thing I've always maintained from the beginning is that Obama's plan does NOT fix health care. It does nothing to fix the problems of healthcare. All it does is burden more people.

The healthcare reform we NEED in this country should be a complete revamp of how healthcare works. That needs to be step 1. Instead we get a plan that just forces everybody into a broken system and says, "well now that we all have it, its working great!" NO. Its still broken.
 
101Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 11:21
Would that be a problem with socialized healthcare? When I hear socialized healthcare, I think of the European model. Which tries to rationalize the cost to the benefit, which Boldwin calls death panels. I am ok with that. As we are seeing, as a society we can't afford to do everything possible to keep everyone alive as long as possible. Well, we can try, but we are bankrupting ourselves.

I can at least see the consistency in having all premiums not allowing for sex. I agree with it, but, at least it is logically consistent. If data shows that one group can be offered a lower rate, and a different group his higher risk, thus requires a higher rate, I'm ok with that. If a company wants to discriminate, a competing company should see that inefficiency and exploit it. Legislating a level playing field is the opposite of that.
 
102Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 12:25
Deductibles are a free market "solution." It doesn't have anything to do with socialism.
 
103Boldwin
      ID: 494571610
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 12:49
death panels. I am ok with that. As we are seeing, as a society we can't afford to do everything possible to keep everyone alive as long as possible.

The other side of that coin, is that Frick will not allow you to do everything possible to keep living.

He would rob you in your hospital room to pay for the insurance of some kid in his parent's basement. You can just go die, even if you can afford the procedure yourself otherwise.

That was in Hillary-care and it is in Obamacare. Doctors couldn't take your money and treat you even if they wanted to and you could afford to pay...Obamacare and the death panels decides who gets what procedure.
 
104Boldwin
      ID: 494571610
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 13:54
Obama at the trainwreck

"I dunno, no one tells me anything, dang independent agency! I'll get back to you on that.'
 
105Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 14:22
Umm, where did I say that? We have doctors who work outside of insurance now. Did I say anything that would forbid that to happen? Or do you just assume the worst about anything that remotely disagrees with you. Nevermind, I think we already no the answer to that.

You want to spend $300k on an experimental treatment for greatgrandma when she is 99? Feel free. Should we as a society disregard the cost of something that might extend her life by 2 days?

I never said that I wanted a plan that prohibits doctors from working outside of the system. You you automatically assuming that any type of socialized medicine does is not helping the debate. But, that isn't your intention anyways.
 
106Boldwin
      ID: 494571610
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 15:47
HillaryCare flatout had penalties for anyone going outside the system. Obamacare has penalties for doctors who do any procedure not approved by the death panels. Since ObamaCare will at least double the cost of health insurance it's going to be very difficult to save your life by going outside the system even if you can find a loophole that allows it.
 
107Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 15:59
Again, where did I say anything about Obamacare or HillaryCare. I was talking about socialized healthcare in general, notably the European model.

 
108Boldwin
      ID: 494571610
      Thu, May 16, 2013, 18:59
So what? Just as bad.
 
109Boldwin
      ID: 504361623
      Fri, May 17, 2013, 01:36
No coincidences
Sarah Hall Ingram served as commissioner of the office responsible for tax-exempt organizations between 2009 and 2012. But Ingram has since left that part of the IRS and is now the director of the IRS’ Affordable Care Act office, the IRS confirmed to ABC News today.
 
110Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Fri, May 17, 2013, 08:59
So you want any amount of money spent to keep you alive for 1 second longer?

I don't care what system you want to support, the framework for that type of medical care isn't supportable by 99.999% of the population. Sure, Bill Gates or Warren Buffet could pull it off.

For a long-term sustainable model, at some point the trade-off between effectiveness, need, and cost needs to be considered. We don't have that yet here. Our current model is what is going to lead to the collapse of our economy. Just look at what is driving the vast majority of cost increases.
 
111Boldwin
      ID: 504361623
      Fri, May 17, 2013, 10:56
Lawyers.
 
112Boldwin
      ID: 504361623
      Fri, May 17, 2013, 13:32
Before Sarah Hall Ingram was put in charge of enforcing Obamacare, she received a $100,000 bonus for something while she used the IRS as a political weapon.

Maybe it was for using the IRS as a political weapon.

And donors in Pelosi's district get Obamacare waivers...

And Obama's favorite unions get Obamacare waivers...
 
113Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Fri, May 17, 2013, 14:07
even when giftwrapped a scandal, they just can't help themselves...
 
114Boldwin
      ID: 504491721
      Sat, May 18, 2013, 13:09


Bottom line I guess is that we all should just pretend we are illegal aliens. They aren't allowed to question or hassle you then.
 
115Boldwin
      ID: 504491721
      Sat, May 18, 2013, 13:11
No se habla ingles. Get out of jail free card. Free healthcare...what a country.
 
116bibA
      ID: 54522612
      Sat, May 18, 2013, 13:18
Look at them complain about the land they live and are allowed to vote in. One would think that if they had such disdain for their country they would find somewhere that is better. I hear Costa Rica is real nice.
 
117Boldwin
      ID: 504491721
      Sat, May 18, 2013, 13:26
This was the last best refuge from marxism until you guys polluted it.
 
118bibA
      ID: 54522612
      Sat, May 18, 2013, 14:15
It's such a big world out there. You sure there are no longer any refuges from marxism?
 
119Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Sat, May 18, 2013, 14:30
Saudi Arabia....
 
120Tree
      ID: 374371813
      Sat, May 18, 2013, 14:37
Baldwin's living room. also, a refuge from common sense.
 
121Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sat, May 18, 2013, 16:11
So now polluting is bad?
 
122Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 14:21
What I've been saying about Obamacare all along is proving more and more true. It doesn't fix anything about our system. It just forces people into a broken system. Now from the realm of more unintended consequences we see more employers looking to cut costs of health insurance at the expense of the common person.

So, is Obamacare truly providing health insurance for all, or just the illusion of it?
 
123Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 15:58
Part of the most interesting part of politics is trying to decide if decision makers are complete morons or absolutely brilliant.

Wholesale changes to our current healthcare system were never going to happen. Was the point of Obama care simply the first step into establishing a single payer system for those who don't have more/better comprehensive coverage from their work.
 
124Boldwin
      ID: 434372312
      Thu, May 23, 2013, 18:10
Pass it to find out what's in it.

Skinny Plans

Oh, thanks for nothin'.
 
125Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sat, May 25, 2013, 23:19
Jan Brewer: RINO
 
126Boldwin
      ID: 7415265
      Sun, May 26, 2013, 07:02
The state that keeps giving us McCain. Sheesh.

I rather think the retiree voting block is a hard one not to walk in lock-step with in Arizona.
 
127sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Sun, May 26, 2013, 21:27
re 124...so now, you want to blame Obama, for corporate America's greed? Employers are not required to provide ANY coverages now...none.
 
128Boldwin
      ID: 534112621
      Sun, May 26, 2013, 22:23
Since you want single payer government running everything, what difference is that to you?
 
129Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 09:33
Interesting Governmental Policy

While the ACA is a wide sweeping law that hopefully nets positive changes. How about we adopt a program like this that can lead to positive social change. Although I'm sure we would F it up, since I see both sides arguing over some of the items in the box. In particular I see the Christian Right having a meltdown over a condom included.
 
130sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 00:02
re 128...what I WANT...is a reasonable bang for the buck spent on healthcare. What i WANT...is for no one to die because they couldnt afford their prescriptions. What I want....is for no family to go bankrupt, because someone took ill. It just so happens, that globally, those nations delivering to their citizens those things I mention, are all....yep....single payer. You may not like it at all, but the simple truth is...it works.
 
131Boldwin
      ID: 345321918
      Wed, Jun 19, 2013, 19:33
Remember when libs got angry and threatened restaurant chains and theaters with boycotts for not being able to afford the consequences of Obamacare?

The consensus is in from government...
Birmingham, Mich. Commissioner Gordon Rinschler may have summed up best the reaction that countless businesses and governments are having to ObamaCare, saying: "We simply can't afford the Affordable Care Act."

"The biggest problem is everyone said that ObamaCare is only going to help cut costs. Nothing could be further from the truth," said Mike Kennedy , who serves on the board of Millard Public Schools
And we should listen to them. They're the government. The best and the brightest. Our betters. Whatever the government says is good enuff for me. Let's take their word for it.
 
132sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Thu, Jun 20, 2013, 08:54
The "consequences" of Obamacare...Thanks to Obamacare Healthcare Costs Fell for First Time in Almost 40 Years

The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday that U.S. consumers’ health-care costs fell in May for the first time in almost four decades,”The latest evidence that government policies and an expansion in generic drugs are holding back prices.”

 
133sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 10:28
SCOTUS strikes down key provision of Voters Rights Act

Sad, sad day, IMHO.
 
134Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 18:44
GOP, worried that the Administration is threatening pro sports into promoting Obamacare, sends out their own letter, essentially saying "Hey, ya got a nice league here. Shame if anything happened to its reputation..."
 
135Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Sat, Jul 20, 2013, 11:53
 
136sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 20:47
Proof Of Politics: Indiana Fudges Truth On Health Exchange Rates To Make Obamacare Look Bad

Anyone paying attention to data projecting what a health insurance policy will likely cost on the newly formed individual policy insurance exchanges could hardly miss the headlines late last week announcing that premiums for health insurance policies stood to rise to an average monthly price of $570—a 72 percent increase over current rates in Indiana.

.......

You see, while the states that have already released their projections have based their price expectations on what insurance company filings suggest will be the cost of a ‘Silver’ plan (the second least expensive option to be offered on the exchanges), Indiana decided to publish their projections based on a calculation that took all the levels of plans to be offered—ranging from the less expensive Bronze and Silver plan to the most expensive Gold and Platinum plans—and averaged them all together to come up with their projected rates.

As Sy Mukherjee points out, “That’s like saying the average cost of a car in an Indiana dealership is $100,000 because it sells $20,000 Fords, $60,000 BMWs, and $220,000 Lamborghinis — technically true, but highly misleading.”
 
137Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 20:16
What sabotage governing looks like.
 
138Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 17:27
An effort by Democrats to fix a glitch in Obamacare which hurts small churches is expected to be opposed by the GOP.

Why? Because the GOP doesn't want to fix Obamacare, even portions of the law which hurts churches. They only want to repeal it.
 
139Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 29740817
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 18:40
Repealing it will fix it.
 
140Tree
      ID: 30734814
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 18:53
so will making repairs.

i've learned that most people who want Obamacare repealed haven't read much, if any, of it. and they sure don't know why they want it repealed, other than the reasons they've been told their supposed to be opposed to it.
 
141Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 19:15
Repealing it will just repeal it. None of the good things it does will happen. And the GOP literally has no alternative to offer.

The GOP has been reduced to hurting churches, and encouraging freeloading.

They have completely lost at their own arguments.
 
142Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 19:16
Promoting irresponsibility
 
143sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 22:16
NG...there can be no argument, NONE, that insuring people with pre-existing conditions, is good for society. Not so good for an insurance company, but good for society. There can be no argument, NONE, that eliminating lifetime caps on medical payments, is good for society. Again, maybe not so good for an insurance company, but still good for society.

I'll await, your reply, why we should allow people to die and their families to go bankrupt, because of a pre-existing condition. Please, enlighten us as to how that is BENEFICIAL to society.
 
144Frick
      ID: 7631217
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 22:38
Having life-time caps is a benefit to society. They are not pleasant for individuals or their families, but for society as a whole they are a good thing. They help prevent medical care costs from rising even more and faster than they do today.

Arguing against pre-existing conditions is more situational, but a compelling case could be made that society as a whole might make better choices on their dietary and exercise choices if some pre-existing conditions were not covered. I'm not referring to genetic or conditions that are outside the control of individuals. But, something like type 2 diabetes caused by obesity is something that is often the result of poor choices made by people. I'm not saying that all pre-existing conditions shouldn't be covered, but to say that NO possible argument could be made is wrong.
 
145Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 22:41
The problem with caps is that the patient has no real control over the costs, let alone the total costs, and yet are being asked to pay for it by giving up care at the very point when they have needs for a whole lot of it.
 
146sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 22:49
How the hell do they function as a cost control Frick? They don't either. You know who exceeds the caps? People who survive house fires, can go through the common $1,000,000 cap, in under a year.

How specifically, is a benefit to society, for them to spend 30 years w/o insurance, because they exhausted their benefits and now have a pre-existing condition?

It is no such thing.
 
147sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 22:52
re pre-existing...my sister died of leukemia, diagnosed during a 3 day window during which my fathers employer was changing insurance. After she died, and my folks paid for her funeral, it took them another TWENTY-FIVE years to pay off her medical bills.

As for diabetes, you assume that the situation is a result strictly of choice. Isnt it comical (NOT), how frequently the rightwing blames the patient/victim?

You intend to argue that keeping pre-existing conditions excluded, then prepare for a fight.
 
148Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 08:56
Sigh. I didn't say that all diabetes was strictly the result of choice. I said a specific type of diabetes could be caused by obesity. My warning is that by removing one of the consequences you risk the unintended consequence resulting in more people making bad choices, as there will be someone to help them pay for the consequences. You said there was no argument against pre-existing conditions. As I said above, I agree that most pre-existing conditions should be covered, but there are cases where, perhaps they shouldn't be.

My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer 3 weeks after her 30th birthday, so I'm quite aware of the headaches and concerns that are caused by pre-existing conditions and life-time caps. When I switched jobs, I was very specific in questions regarding if her continued treatment would be covered, thankfully, the employer that I moving to was a great and said they would be no issues, and there weren't.

People do have choices in their medical treatment, but for the most part, in our system we aren't interested or people elect to do as many treatment courses as possible to increase their odds, irregardless of expected outcome.

After my wife had her mastectomy, we met with the oncologist who showed us a chart of the 4 choices of treatment, nothing, chemo, radiation, or chemo w/radiation. There was never a mention of cost, which is the result of our system where costs aren't a concern. That has many positives, but there are also a few negatives.

I'm aware that people with major medical expenses can blow through them in a very quick amount of time. Seeing my wife's medical bills and looking at her life time maximum was scary.

But, as a benefit to society as a whole, they can be beneficial. It is awful to the individuals and families, but if someone with constant high medical bills is a drain on society. If someone has annual medical bills of say, $2M, how many years should society as a whole cover? 20, 40, 70? Those are hypotheticals, but caps do act as a cost control. They are blunt instruments that could be fine tuned IMO, but they are definitely a cost control.

Risky behavior could also be promoted with unlimited care and no caps. The reason that doctor's office visits have a co-pay is to limit what people go to the doctor for. It would be great if we could set it individually so that people went to the doctor when appropriate, not every time they had a sniffle. Both the co-pay and the cap are based on economic theories about how people react to cost and benefit, with regard to risk.
 
149biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 10:53
So are you suggesting lifetime caps on treatment, or insurance?

Careful, or there will be howls of Death Panels!
 
150Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 14:16
I don't believe that I suggested having them or not, but it is a valid question with pros and cons on both sides.

One interesting idea I read in a sci-fi book years ago was to implement a single payer system with a lifetime cap. Employers could then offer additional insurance over that cap as an incentive or bonus for employees.

Or what if the cap reduced as you got older, automatically, even if you hadn't used anything previously. It would prevent the incentive to not see a doctor while younger for minor things that could be fixed easily for fear of maxing out your cap, while at the same time reducing cost of keeping someone alive at the end of their lifetime. That is when, generally, the majority of medical expenses occur. Am I a heartless bastard, I guess, or you could same I'm pragmatic.

Both of my grandmothers are still alive, one has had numerous medical issues, the other has had virtually none. I don't want either of them to die, but I also can't see the rationale that society should spend potentially millions on them so that they live 5 years longer, then they would have "naturally". So, I guess I am in favor of death panels. Kick me to the right-wing curb.
 
151Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 15:29
While I agree we need to curb spending, I think you might not have your finger on the pulse of what motivates people to live a healthier lifestyle.

People aren't fat because they aren't able to reap monatary benefits were they thin.
 
152sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 16:40
and nobody I know got fat, because their medical bills would still be paid. The causality isn't there to support the contention.
 
153Khahan
      Donor
      ID: 39432178
      Wed, Sep 04, 2013, 14:47
Not really sure where to put this one, but could raisin farmers actually get Wickard vs Filburn overturned?

Only putting this in the Scotus Obamacare watch thread because of how often Filburn vs Wickard came up in the various discussions.
 
154Perm Dude
      ID: 417342923
      Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:17
Not sure if Wickard would get really into play with that issue--seems like a straightforward theft issue, IMO, rather than a manipulation of interstate markets argument.

I am very surprised something like this has been happening without some kind of previous agreement. In other words, growers perhaps agreed to this in return for something in the past, and now the tithing has been separated from its original counterweight.
 
155Boldwin
      ID: 508421617
      Mon, Sep 16, 2013, 18:42
You will share your sex life info with everyone or else. And your doctor will be forced to break his Hippocratic Oath and his conscience to cooperate.
‘Are you sexually active? If so, with one partner, multiple partners or same-sex partners?”

Be ready to answer those questions and more the next time you go to the doctor, whether it’s the dermatologist or the cardiologist and no matter if the questions are unrelated to why you’re seeking medical help. And you can thank the Obama health law.

He called the sex questions “insensitive, stupid and very intrusive.” He couldn’t think of an occasion when a cardiologist would need such information — but he knows he’ll be pushed to ask for it.

The president’s “reforms” aim to turn doctors into government agents, pressuring them financially to ask questions they consider inappropriate and unnecessary, and to violate their Hippocratic Oath to keep patients’ records confidential.

Doctors and hospitals who don’t comply with the federal government’s electronic-health-records requirements forgo incentive payments now; starting in 2015, they’ll face financial penalties...
 
156bibA
      ID: 48854410
      Mon, Sep 16, 2013, 20:19
I am seeing my family doctor and my dermatologist both within the next couple weeks. Am curious to see if this information is accurate.
 
157sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Mon, Sep 16, 2013, 21:16
OPINION page nonsense more than likely. Partisan hype, like the so called proviso that allows the govt to conduct forced home inspections. (A gross misrepresentation of the allowances for home health care for the late stages of a terminal illness.)

misrepresentation

the truth
 
158sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Mon, Sep 16, 2013, 21:41
oh, and as to the writer of your link B?

Betsy McCaughey, inventor of "death panels"
 
159Tree
      ID: 317371816
      Mon, Sep 16, 2013, 22:28
i see something like 155, and it makes me wonder if some people are born without a common sense switch - why is it some people see something that is instantly laughable, but others see it as the truth?
 
160Perm Dude
      ID: 417342923
      Mon, Sep 16, 2013, 23:41
Wonkette spells it out, for those without critical thinking skills.

The Right loves Betsy McCaughey because she lied during the Clinton Administration to take down Hilarycare. But we really aren't so stupid as to believe her lies again, right? Right?
 
161sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Tue, Sep 17, 2013, 01:48
(post 160---see 158 lol)
 
162sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Tue, Sep 17, 2013, 01:50
The irony of course of McCaugheys taking down of Hillarycare, is that was what spurred the Heritage Foundation to come up with, and the GOP to introduce into the House (3 times), what we now know as "Obamacare".
 
163sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 17:59
Politifact says the claims in post 155, are "pants on fire" false
 
164Perm Dude
      ID: 417342923
      Fri, Sep 20, 2013, 15:03
Email from Tom Corbett today includes the line: "President Barack Obama's so-called Affordable Care Act..."

It is "so-called" because that is its name.

What's next--"So-called Governor Tom Corbett?"
 
165Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 598232015
      Fri, Sep 20, 2013, 16:24
Because its going to be unaffordable duh
 
166sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Fri, Sep 20, 2013, 16:27
simply...un-true.
 
167Perm Dude
      ID: 417342923
      Fri, Sep 20, 2013, 16:57
Whether it is or not misses the point, and makes the point rather weak sauce. "So-called" is just petty, and from a guy who is at 17% approval territory I guess he's hoping people will think it is 2010 again and he can just run against Obamacare instead of on his actual record.

PA residents aren't stupid, however, and leaving billions of federal dollars on the table for Medicare in a state with its own budget problems is not something they will soon forget. Nor should they--it isn't the act of a fiscally responsible individual.
 
168biliruben
      ID: 7751279
      Mon, Sep 23, 2013, 09:41
Insurers create narrow networks.

What it sounds like to me is that they are avoiding doctors groups that have been bought by big hospitals.

I think that is an interesting tack, and a way to combat a real problem that has recently emerged. I have noticed, because I have an HSA and pay my own bills, that my seeing my boy's doctor can as much as triple if I see her in one clinic, owned by the Children's hospital here, compared to her home clinic.

Hospitals are buying the clinics, then passing on the costs of overhead of the hospitals to the clinic hospitals, even for a routine office visit.

It sounds like the insurers are fighting back at this tactic by redlining around these hospitals and physician groups.

Good on them.
 
169sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Mon, Sep 23, 2013, 12:30
Texas inadvertantly, runs headlong into the truth re "Obamacare"

This letter from a Texas agency is the best justification for Obamacare. This Texas government agency placed the wellbeing of Texans over politics.
 
170sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Wed, Sep 25, 2013, 13:05
This was posted on FB this morning, and I think it raises an interesting point. Defund Obamacare. It wouldn't matter. It would still be law and a lawsuit away form being court ordered into implementation; funded or not. Right?

Let's leave aside for a moment that every reason stated to oppose Obamacare is a lie, every single one.

Let's also not speak of how taking health insurance away from 30 million people is a horrible thing to aspire to accomplish.

Let's not think about Obamacare being the law of the land, passing the House, passing the Senate with a 60-vote super majority, being signed by a President, who has since been re-elected, and approved by the Supreme Court.

Let's not even consider the "doomed to fail" aspect of this exercise in windmill-tilting. We won't even mention that the right's desperation to kill this law is based on their knowledge that the law's success is their demise as a political party and the ideology of any sane person, all their lies and hate being exposed by those nasty, liberal facts.

Let's not waste time speaking of Ted Cruz's hypocrisy in thinking 41 Senators can undo what it took 60 Senators to do.

Let's definitely not talk about how just last year we had a Presidential election that right said was a referendum on Obamacare, that is until they lost, now they deny it vehemently, of course.

No, let's talk about this: de-funding Obamacare is inherently illegal and can't stand legal scrutiny even if it were to somehow succeed. This is why: if the law is simply not funded, it will still be on the books. It will still be the un-repealed law of the land. People will sue the federal government for not implementing it, they will win in court, and the government will be forced to fund the law.

This type of thing happens all the time, people suing the government to make them enforce the law, and when the plaintiffs are correct, they often win. People involved with environmentalism or forestry know this very well. Almost every environmental protection ever passed into law has been enforced by the courts, with the government having to be dragged kicking and screaming into compliance. The Forest Service has been dragged into court too many times to count, and only then have they actually done what environmental laws have required.

You see, a court can mandate that government do what it is supposed to, and tough luck if you don't have the money. They will be forced to come up with the money out of other budgets or programs, then those will have to be funded by Congress. When the funding for Obamacare occurs by court order, and the President takes it out of (perhaps) the military budget, then the Republicans will have to replace that money or let the military do without.

So, in our time of tight budgets, and a country in need of living-wage jobs more than any other single thing in my opinion, isn't it good to know that one of our two political parties is wasting everyone's time and money, and ignoring other important business, with their doomed attempts to sabotage the law of the land?
 
171sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 00:42
NOW, I understand why the GOP hates Obamacare SOOOOOOO much, and it has nothing at all to do with healthcare reform.

The 1993 Voters Rights Act, stipulates that anytime you apply for health insurance, you can also register to vote. The very LAST thing the GOP wants, is another 10,000,000 people showing up to vote. (Figure roughly 48,000,000 uninsured, some of whom are minors. If roughly 1/2 register and then half of those vote; that would be around 10 million more voters.)

link

 
172sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Sun, Sep 29, 2013, 13:45
Congress unanimous in agreement to repeal Obamacare, after T Cruz threatens to recite entire Twilight saga
 
173sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Mon, Sep 30, 2013, 00:01
THE best argument yet, in favor of true Universal healthcare:

"If we have a real flu pandemic in this country the 50 million Americans who don’t have insurance will be the primary vector . . . the way YOUR kids will catch the disease.

Universal health care is a national security issue. Period. Failure to provide it is dereliction of duty by members of Congress and should be treated accordingly.
— Seattle Dad"


a comment to this 2009 article:

45,000 deaths year, from lack of insurance
 
174sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Mon, Sep 30, 2013, 00:27
The only GOP Presidential candidate who was never the frontrunner in 2012, is also the only GOP candidate from 2012, that had any chance at all in a national election. Turns out, he is still the most reasonable of the GOP, on the national scene.
 
175sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 11:04
Not Obamacare, but SCOTUS, as the Roberts Court finalizes the sale of the American republic to Fascism;

McCutcheon v. FEC: Supreme Court Strikes Down Overall Limits On Campaign Contributions
 
176Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Wed, Apr 02, 2014, 13:59
Once the idea of "campaign contributions = speech" entered into the equation, this was inevitable.
 
177Boldwin
      ID: 4337818
      Tue, Apr 08, 2014, 19:38
ObamaCare’s Net Impact: Roughly 3.6 million more uninsured since Bush administration.

And the existing system destroyed. BTW try getting a doctor these days. None of them accept medicaide either.
 
178weykool
      ID: 474402717
      Tue, Apr 08, 2014, 21:11
Lets not forget the millions of jobs put on hold.
Without a doubt the single largest jobs killing bill in the history of the US.
 
179Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Wed, Apr 09, 2014, 09:42
Since when is the number of uninsured subject to a poll? What's next: Gallup brings you the violent crime rates?

More than 9 million people got insurance for the first time as a result of Obamacare. This has long-term positive impact for our country.

The impact of the ACA on jobs is, right now, quite minimal. There are far greater things affecting the inability of the job market (principally, that companies are taking on less expansion risk, and are not offering raises by and large).

Anyone who believes this is a "jobs killing bill" felt that way before it was even passed. The actual facts on the ground aren't going to matter here.
 
180khahan
      ID: 5332910
      Wed, Apr 09, 2014, 11:04
More than 9 million people got insurance for the first time as a result of Obamacare

No, more than 9mil people have signed up but many of those were already insured. In fact as of early Nov 2013 4.2million Americans lost their plan due to the ACA. Now some were truly lost. Some were replaced etc. But the fact is you have to take into account the # of people who had insurance (sometimes better plans sometimes worse) when you look at the 9million enrolled number.

Its not 9million newly insured Americans. Its probably closer to 5. Now out of that 5, how many millions or even hundreds of thousands voluntarily switched without being accounted for in the 4.2mil that lost?

How many were 'kids' who just left their parents plan and got insurance for the first time but would have gotten it regardless of the ACA? How many were immigrants who only just qualified for the first time? How many were people who never had it before but just got the means and would have regardless of the aca? Maybe these last 3 categories aren't all that big.

Again, the point is that people are way over overstating the ACA. Its done some good. There are people who are using the credit vouchers to get insurance. But even that is questionable on how many people its helped from my discussions with an associate who is selling plans.

I'd say its done more harm than good so far. And it still doesn't address the fact that the government is telling citizens in a free country, "buy this product or else!!!" Something that on principle is a non-starter for me. I will never get past that sticking point.
 
191Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Wed, Apr 09, 2014, 15:58
According to a study by the Rand Corporation, more than 9 million people obtained health care insurance for the first time because of the ACA.

This is a net figure.
 
192Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Wed, Apr 09, 2014, 16:06
Meant to make one more point regarding the Gallup poll, and link: With so many people still getting their insurance through their employment, we would expect to see a jump in the uninsured rate when recession hits (as, of course, it did, near the end of the Bush term and then really slamming the country in early 2008).

This seems to have, oddly, been unmentioned in that link. Weird.
 
193biliruben
      ID: 332321819
      Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 13:59
The absurdity of ignoring the effect of the recession in the analysis just made me giggle. No serious rebuttle necessary for unserious number twisting.
 
194Boldwin
      ID: 53342110
      Fri, Apr 11, 2014, 01:54
RAND Comes Clean: Obamacare's Exchanges Enrolled Only 1.4 Million Previously Uninsured Individuals
the 1.4 million figure has a margin of error of 700,000, meaning that there is a 95 percent probability that the actual number is between 700,000 and 2.1 million previously uninsured enrollees.
 
195Khahan
      ID: 59358119
      Fri, Apr 11, 2014, 11:02
PD - From that same study you reference in 191:

"First, a significant amount of this increase comes from Medicaid enrollments, not private insurance. Almost six million people enrolled in Medicaid, and earlier studies showed that a relatively small number of those came from the expansion built into the ACA; most of these would have been Medicaid-eligible prior to the reform.

Another 8.2 million more people enrolled in employer-provided health care, as 7.1 million left the “other” category and another 1.6 million left the individual insurance markets. Only 3.9 million actually enrolled in insurance plans through state or federal exchanges – not 7.1 million as claimed by Obama. That number falls far short of even the lowered expectations issued by HHS and the White House earlier this year."

link for above paragraphs.
 
196Boldwin
      ID: 53342110
      Fri, Apr 11, 2014, 11:35
So we destroyed the American healthcare system to possibly only insure 700,000 people. I've heard the CBO's listed [and surely underestimated] cost of Obamacare works out to @75,000 per newly signed up and paying 'client'.

Some large corporations were forced to give insurance to less than 8 million people while tens of millions were never hired because the jobs weren't created, had their job opportunities dropped to @26 hours instead of fulltime, or gave up and joined the entirely government dependent class.

And virtually everyone lost the insurance they actually liked and saw an increase in premiums.

Meanwhile the people on this board and Obama who promised reduced insurance costs have not and probably never will apologize for misleading us.
 
197Bean
      ID: 5292191
      Fri, Apr 11, 2014, 12:11
How much wealth is too much? How much poverty is too much?

Which is more important, public healthcare or public education? How much of each is appropriate? Can we afford to do both at extremely high levels? What are the ramifications of trying and failing to do so?

Which is more valuable, public service or private job creation? How much of each is appropriate? Can these two things live in harmony, or is there a more basic issue of competition vs cooperation that makes their coexistence impossible?

You will never get any two people to agree on everything unless they decide to compromise, or learn to accept voting as a solution, even when they dont agree with the majority.

Is accepting the rule of the majority a virtue or a vice? I dont know the answer to that, and I know you dont either. It is, however, a basic tenant of our type of government that we accept the rule of the majority opinion. It is also a basic tenant of our form of government that we accept the authority of government officials when executing the results of that vote. As the commercial suggests "anything less would be uncivilized".

Honestly, everything that separates the right from the left in any culture really comes down to lessons we learned in early childhood. Sharing, standing up for yourself, and responsibility drive many of our social decisions. All but sociopaths agree the need for these things in equal balance. The problem we all have is that we dont trust the other's motivation when we dont agree with their idea of balance.

It's great to watch intelligent people debate these things to a conclusion. It is far less enjoyable to watch them perpetually debate the same things with no resolution.

 
198Boldwin
      ID: 53342110
      Fri, Apr 11, 2014, 14:55
For that you would have to find two intelligent sides.

When one side reflexively chooses proven failed ideas from long dead tyrants...

...even after the USSR recognized their own failure and chose crony capitalism over marxism...

...even after the 'Great Society' proved to be a giant counterproductive failure that immeasurably increased poverty, moral squalor and hopeless dependency...

...when one side concludes in the face of the evidence...'Yeah, gimme more of that marxism and force it down his throat too'...

There is no fun intelligent debate to be had.
 
199biliruben
      ID: 332321819
      Fri, Apr 11, 2014, 15:28
I believe in the general goodness and quality of the human race. So yeah.
 
200Boldwin
      ID: 53342110
      Fri, Apr 11, 2014, 15:43
Which explains why you reflexively choose ideas which are proven failures how?
 
201biliruben
      ID: 332321819
      Fri, Apr 11, 2014, 15:59
Now your just trolli.g. poorly.
 
202Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Fri, Apr 11, 2014, 18:03
Key word "immeasurably" I believe.

:)
 
203sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 00:47
B...steadfastly ignoring historic truths.

The US GDP, has grown more under Dem admins, than under GOP ones, since 1920.
Corporate profits, have been higher under Dem Admins, than under GOP ones, since 1920.
Personal incomes are higher under Dem than GOP,
Unemployment is lower under Dems, than GOP,
Deficits are lower under Dems, than under GOP,
Stock performance is superior under Dem, than under GOP,

ALL are and have been true, for nearly 100 years. Yet B calls those consistent, mind blowing successes "failures". Actually, typical of a political ideology, bent on selling a lie.
 
204Boldwin
      ID: 13361217
      Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 19:35
The only fiscal successes in my lifetime were the Reagan Boom and Newt's congress.
 
205Tree
      ID: 438482411
      Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 20:18
lol. i like how you give credit to the president in one (republican, even if he'd be kicked out of the party today), and the leader of congress in the other (republican, morally bankrupt), but not any Dems. lmao.
 
206Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sat, Sep 06, 2014, 20:02
Under Obamacare the number of uninsured has dropped and spending on health care has slowed.

Not long ago, premiums were up 10% or more each year. Not, health care spending overall has slowed, a lot. And out-of-pocket health care costs are actually slightly in decline.
 
207sarge33rd
      ID: 118491316
      Sat, Sep 13, 2014, 18:08
Our resident RWNJ was ballistic for MONTHS, re Terri Schiavo. Strangem he is silent about people like Ms Horrocks.

Utah’s Republicans May Not Let Sherilyn Horrocks Die (or they may. Depends on how quickly they accept the PPACA)

Sherilyn Horrocks is a 62-year-old woman who has the same autoimmune disease that killed her brother when he was 36. Despite her constant medical problems, Sherilyn Horrocks hasn’t had health insurance since her husband’s employer dropped spousal coverage in 2000. Sherilyn Horrocks’ condition is incurable.

“But there are medicines and procedures that would prolong my life if I could afford them,” Sherilyn Horrocks told the Salt Lake Tribune in September of 2013[ii]. “I have a feeling I’m going to be one of those who falls through the cracks.”

Sherilyn Horrocks would already have health insurance — if Republicans in Utah had accepted the expanded Medicaid coverage being offered to 57,000 of its residents under the Affordable Care Act.


This is not a patient comatose, in a degenerative and vegetative state. This is simply a patient with a serious health issue.
 
208Khahan
      ID: 16341313
      Sat, Sep 13, 2014, 18:30
This is the problem with the ACA sarge. Her medical costs dont change just because she's on health insurance. Not drastically. They are still outrageous, still costly, still burdensome. Her deductibles alone would probably bankrupt her (though she WOULD be getting the care she needs, I'm not ignoring that - its just a different discussion from the cost discussion and one I think we all agree is a good thing).

The ACA did nothing to address the cost of medical care. It did nothing to address insurance companies making health decisions instead of doctors.
 
209sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sat, Sep 13, 2014, 22:05
Khahan.....so, because it wouldnt be free, it is of no consequence? Thank-you Sound argument then for true Universal health-Care.
 
210Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 00:05
I'm not sure of what your argument is her, Khahan--is it that the cost of her care wouldn't change so Utah shouldn't expand Medicaid? Given that Utah won't expand unless the private insurers who would run it make more money from the program, this isn't the case here, I don't believe. Utah's plan would make Medicaid more expensive overall.

And, of course, we're talking about Medicaid, not regular insurance. She would have no deductibles to speak of.

The fact that ACA does not directly address medical costs is exactly right (though, aside from doing a Canadian or British takeover of the system I'm not sure how that could happen). This doesn't mean that the ACA has no effect on costs--the information in #206 is still very true. Health care costs are growing at about half the rate it was growing for almost two decades before the ACA was implemented.
 
211Khahan
      ID: 16341313
      Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 01:47
Sarge, where in the world did I ever say it should be free? I'm just pointing out the innate failure of the ACA.

And PD, that article is not very informative. Take this line for instance:

Health spending growth for 2013 is projected to remain slow at 3.6 percent

Who's spending and why? Is it overall spending on healthcare by all sources? Is it spending by insurance companies? Is it spending by consumers?
And why is it slowing? If its spending by insurance companies, its pretty obviously down because of the stupidly high deductibles they are slapping on everybody. If its down overall is there any correlation to it being down vs the amount of health care services being sought?

All the ACA has accomplished is to force people into a broken system. Perhaps if it actually attempted to fix health care costs I could get past the forced purchase mandate (my thoughts on this part of it are well known). But it doesn't. The ACA is the biggest sham we've ever had foisted upon us. And I'll take any and every chance to point out its obvious short comings.

Health care reform was needed years ago and its still needed. The ACA is NOT healthcare reform by any stretch of the imagination. Reform would have addressed these base issues and found ways to reduce costs of health care services so that health care is actually affordable.
 
212Mith
      ID: 21130811
      Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 07:01
The ACA as proposed did attempt to control costs through a robust public option. But that was a necessary sacrifice in order to get the rest of the thing passed.

Increasing the previously shrinking number of people with coverage was still better than doing nothing at all, even if the political opposition refused to let the full proposal manifest.

I agree it's not enough. But it was everything that could have been done in that political climate.
 
213Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 09:56
I agree.

Khahan: There are a number of places through which you can drill down on those numbers. The CDC, for instance, has a department which does nothing but collect health care statistics (lots to dig through, I know).

Kaiser is also a good source for information. Here's a recent piece from their daily news brief.
 
214Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 09:59
Just to be clear: With premiums rising far above inflation for decades, people literally dying for the lack of health care, and small businesses unable to compete with large ones in providing coverage for their employees, we might say that it is better to have taken some steps (like the ACA) to get some of these out-of-control problems back in control first, before trying to tackle all health care problems.

Yes, the ACA doesn't fix all health care problems. And some problems it hopes to fix were secondary. But by and large it is doing what it said it would, despite the artificial barriers being put up by Republicans intent upon its defeat.
 
215sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 14:07
re 211;

Her medical costs dont change just because she's on health insurance.

They are still outrageous, still costly, still burdensome.

Her deductibles alone would probably bankrupt her

The ACA did nothing to address the cost of medical care.

Right there.