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| Posted by: Seattle Zen
- [47630913] Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 18:44

The more I read about the "fiscal cliff" the more I feel like the br'er rabbit pleading "don't throw me in the briar patch!!!".
Latest offer from Obama for a revenue to spending ratio in the negotiations is $2.5 of spending cuts to $1 of new revenue. Look at the chart above. That looks like there is $8 of new revenue to every one dollar of spending cuts, but get this, half of the spending cuts are to defense, which I count in my "win" category. It's $16 dollars revenue for every $1 of non-military cuts.
This is a MASSIVE cut into the deficit, something that is overdue and no Republican administration has ever shown it was able to do. It would supposedly throw us into another recession and raise unemployment. Well, if unemployment numbers do start to increase, there are government actions that can address that.
Attempting to cut this much out of the military budget alone is simply not politically possible. Couldn't be happier than the thought that our military would actually have to scramble to make ends meet, we could start being picky over who gets to join the military and let's put an end to the idea that if you join the military for four years that you are entitled to all sorts of veterans' benefits.
I firmly believe that the American economy has gained a lot of upward momentum and will see continued growth even after the Cliff. I think the CBO is underestimating the amount of tax revenue that will be captured in 2013-2015, we could see deficits as low as $300 billion in 2015 and surpluses in the late teens.
So, why bargain with the Republicans? They not only think that we should not let the rates revert to the Clinton admin. levels, they insist that we throw SS and the Medicare/Medicaid programs on the operating table so they can stick their scalpels into them. Screw that, let's gleefully jump off this cliff. |
| | | 1 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 21:57
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I'm not as optimistic as you about the fiscal cliff, mostly because the markets are still skittish (as we saw during the budget impasse last year). In fact, the markets are already adjusting downward as this cliff looms larger and larger into the picture.
And the thought of the House GOP continuing to hold the purse strings of the country is not exactly a calming signal to the markets in any way. The thought of the GOP unable to come to an agreement with the Administration on the budget even after they got their asses handed to them last week will kill the recovery off completely.
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| | | 2 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 01:30
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I like the term Austerity Bomb better. But I agree, as my very conservative pop said tonight, "time for the rich to start paying what the rest of us pay." He was pissed.
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| | | 3 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 01:41
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John Boehner: No Tax Rate Boost To Avert Fiscal Cliff
WASHINGTON -- House Speaker John Boehner says Republicans want to cooperate with President Barack Obama on reducing federal deficits, but not by raising income tax rates.
Boehner spoke soon after Obama told reporters the GOP-run House should let taxes rise on the richest Americans. Boehner, an Ohio Republican, said that would hurt job creation.
Ignoring the report the House GOP recently removed from their website, since it disproved the idea of tax cuts spurring job creation, the House GOP plans to maintain being the party of obstructionism.
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| | | 4 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 02:07
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Apparently Boehner hasn't learned anything.
He did speak about "raising revenues" but that was seemingly the same old "cut taxes and increase revenue!" myth.
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| | | 5 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 16, 2012, 02:12
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I think Pres Obama, needs to be a far less "friendly President to Congress. He need not be concerned with running for re-election. I think he needs to hold weekly press conferences, nationally televised, and tell the people what progress has/hasnt been made re the "cliff", and who/what appears to beholding up the show. Get the electorate involved.
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| | | 7 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Nov 17, 2012, 15:38
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Ben Stein just now on CNN:
"I've been a Republican longer than most of the people in Congress. I dont understand their emphatic insistence on protecting the rich. Most of them are democrats anyway. What do we care about protecting them? Look, most of the people in my neighborhood have 2 or 3 or 4 Bentleys. Do you really think taxing them more is going to hurt them? It wont. Not one little bit. " (not italicized because the quote may not be EXACTLY verbatim. It is, to the best of my recollection, exactly what he said, but a word or two may be in error.)
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| | | 13 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 23:10
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yep, that was the guy
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| | | 14 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 02:26
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Eisenhower contemplating his speech when Stalin died
In conversation with his speech writer, preparing his speech:(remember, this was in 1953)
In an instant his reverie broke, and he wheeled around. “Here is what I would like to say. The jet plane that roars over your head costs three quarter of a million dollars. That is more money than a man earning ten thousand dollars every year is going to make in his lifetime. What world can afford this sort of thing for long? We are in an armaments race. Where will it lead us? At worst to atomic warfare. At best, to robbing every people and nation on earth of the fruits of their own toil.
“Now, there could be another road before us—the road of disarmament. What does this mean? It means for everybody in the world: bread, butter, clothes, homes, hospitals, schools—all the good and necessary things for decent living. …”
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| | | 15 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 19:10
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CNN reporting that Boehner said. "You want to avoid the fiscal cliff? Obamacare has to go."
This, is the result of the gerrymandering after 2010. Else, you have a Dem controlled House, and these issues go away.
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| | | 16 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 15:16
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Saxby on Grover:"I care more about my country than I do about a 20-year-old pledge."
"If we do it his way then we'll continue in debt, and I just have a disagreement with him about that," On the liklihood of losing Norquist's support in his 2014 reelection bid:"But I don't worry about that because I care too much about my country. I care a lot more about it than I do Grover Norquist,"... "I'm willing to do the right thing and let the political consequences take care of themselves."
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| | | 17 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 15:29
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kudos to the Senator. Now hopefully, a few more can follow his lead.
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| | | 18 | Boldwin
ID: 5010412318 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 19:43
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That would be the former Senator Saxby because his career is over.
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| | | 19 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 19:49
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Taxe rates are going up the rich and the GOP knows it. If you're right about the electoral futures of House Republicans who realign themselves and succumb to that fact, 2014 will be much worse for you than 2010 was for me.
#ROCKgopHARDPLACE
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| | | 20 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 19:57
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I am curious Boldwin, since you do not vote, what makes you so sure what does/doesnt constitute a "Republican"?
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| | | 21 | Boldwin
ID: 5010412318 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 21:02
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As an outsider to the system I am curious why you keep offering advice to the republicans? With your murderous intent towards the base of the republican party listening to your advice would be as harmful to the health as going to EZ-kill Emanuel for end-of-life counseling.
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| | | 22 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 21:13
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(A) I have no such "murderous intent (B) Listening to the truth, could only help the GOP and thus by extension, the country.
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| | | 23 | Boldwin
ID: 5010412318 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 21:13
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In a later interview the pair gave to Bangor Daily News, Michaels, who was also the news director, explained one of the reasons for the resignations:
It’s a culmination of ongoing occurrences that took place the last several years and basically involved upper management practices that we both strongly disagreed with. It’s a little complicated, but we were expected to do somewhat unbalanced news, politically, in general.
Consiglio then added that, “the balanced journalistic approach they use for all their stories was sometimes frowned upon.”
Hhmm. According to the Bangor Daily News, the pair didn’t elaborate on which way the politically unbalanced news was skewed to, but I bet we can take an educated guess. And I think we should look to see if one or both anchors are quickly hired by the local “fair and balanced” Fox News Maine affiliate.
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| | | 24 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 21:22
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My advice to the GOP at the beginning of this year was to nominate Huntsman.
The result couldn't have been any worse than what you got.
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| | | 25 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 21:24
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#23 - You don't understand broadcast news nearly as well as you think.
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| | | 26 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 21:24
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may have been a whole lot closer, if not different, outcome.
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| | | 27 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Nov 24, 2012, 20:22
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re 23, you really should have done some research B. turns put, those 2 have been trying to introduce a little balance, by presenting some LEFTish views on topics like Global Warming for ex.
At 2 TV Stations in Maine, What Al Gore’s Movie Says Isn’t News
How important is global warming in Maine? Not important enough for local television.
Michael Palmer, the general manager of television stations WVII and WFVX, ABC and Fox affiliates in Bangor, has told his joint staff of nine men and women that when “Bar Harbor is underwater, then we can do global warming stories.”
So, TY for pointing out that a non-FOX affiliated station, can be just as imbalanced as FOX< and that the reporters there are inclined to leave when faced with such.
(Really B, you might want to research a wee little bit, before trying to go with a "gotcha" moment. Cause YOU, just got "got".)
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| | | 28 | Boldwin
ID: 1610122510 Sun, Nov 25, 2012, 11:16
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Hope for America. Who'da thunk it?
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| | | 31 | Boldwin
ID: 44100266 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 12:37
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Mark my word, the handwriting on the wall will become clear enough pretty soon and, by mid-2013 at the latest, Chambliss will announce that he will retire rather than seek re-election.
Georgia is one of the most solidly Republican states in the country. Especially in a mid-term election, no Georgia Democrat can hope to win statewide office. Whoever gets the GOP nomination in 2014 will be the state’s next senator, and there are probably a dozen leading Republicans in Georgia craving an opportunity to take on Chambliss in the GOP primary. Nothing that Chambliss does now can save him from his inevitable fate.
He is doomed beyond all hope of redemption.
Here’s the point: A Republican in a purple state can go wobbly without much fear of reprisal. But if a Republican in a deep-red state like Georgia is permitted to get away with flaunting his “bipartisanship” on such a fundamental issue, then every GOP Senator might be tempted to join the RINO Caucus, becoming a bunch of treacherous self-serving sellouts like Arlen Specter and Lisa Murkowski.
A clear matter of principle is at stake, and no personal considerations should prevent conservatives from uniting in this crucial cause. It doesn’t matter whether you like Grover Norquist or not. This isn’t about Grover. This is about preserving the integrity of the Republican Party.
Just as it was necessary to prevent John Cornyn and Jim Greer from “anointing” Charlie Crist as the Florida GOP Senate nominee in 2010, so now it is necessary to retire Saxby Chambliss.
So let it be written. So let it be done. - Robert Stacy McCain
BTW McCain, Robert Stacy McCain, the other McCain - the one we actually like is about as important to twitter on the conservative side as Instapundit is to blogging. Another twitter superstar is Ali Akbar btw.
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| | | 32 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 13:31
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It's pretty funny to see someone call someone a "self-serving sellout" for doing what they believe in and refusing to sell out to ultra-right wing morons to whom they never owed anything to begin with.
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| | | 33 | Boldwin
ID: 44100266 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 14:27
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He didn't get to be senator from Georgia by promising to sell out conservatives.
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| | | 34 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 14:30
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Didn't GA have like 50 straight years of Democratic governors?
I guess that eroded as the remaining Dixiecrat segregationists left and joined the party that chose to embrace them.
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| | | 35 | Tree
ID: 4810422613 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 14:42
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Didn't GA have like 50 straight years of Democratic governors?
actually, it was 131 straight years, from 1872 to 2003.
i also think they have several US Representatives that are Dems.
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| | | 36 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 14:49
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Georgia was the 2nd closest race among all the states that Mitt Romney won. Georgia has trended Democratic in many communities outside of Atlanta. That's not to say the state is not solidly red because it is. Georgia is becoming more moderate, however, as the population becomes more diverse.
Don't forget that Chambliss had to go to a runoff against a Democratic challenger in 2008. He needs moderate votes to win, even in Georgia.
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| | | 37 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 14:51
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Yeah but he needs wingnut votes to get nominated, which hurt his chances to win.
The trend will continue there and elsewhere.
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| | | 38 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 14:52
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He needs moderate votes to win,...
A true statement for almost ANY politician, in almost any election, outside of a very small/confined geography, and thus demography.
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| | | 39 | Boldwin
ID: 44100266 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 15:34
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Reading Putin’s speech without knowing the author, one would think it was written by Reagan or another conservative in America. The speech promotes smaller government and less taxes. It comes as no surprise to those who know Putin as a conservative. Vladimir Putin went on to say:
“…we are reducing taxes on production, investing money in the economy. We are optimizing state expenses.
The second possible mistake would be excessive interference into the economic life of the country and the absolute faith into the all-mightiness of the state.
There are no grounds to suggest that by putting the responsibility over to the state, one can achieve better results.
Unreasonable expansion of the budget deficit, accumulation of the national debt – are as destructive as an adventurous stock market game.
During the time of the Soviet Union the role of the state in economy was made absolute, which eventually lead to the total non-competitiveness of the economy. That lesson cost us very dearly. I am sure no one would want history to repeat itself.” - Vladimir Putin I am sure no one would want history to repeat itself.
'I dare Putin to come here and say that.'Russia lost its’ civil war with the Reds and millions suffered torture and death for almost 75 years under the tyranny of the United Soviet Socialist Republic. Russians survived with a new and stronger faith in God and ever growing Christian Church. The question is how long will the once “Land of the Free” remain the United Socialist States of America? Their suffering has only begun. - PRAVDA WRITER
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| | | 40 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 13:16
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To me, it looks more and more likely that we will fall off the "cliff". There is no way the Republicans will agree with a plan that Democrats consider reasonable. I've already stated that I really like what we would get if we fall off the cliff and we would be making a lot of compromises in order to avoid it. The only tangible benefit I see today derived from making those compromises is driving a wooden stake through Norquist's heart.
Remember, there is no cuts to SS or Medicare/Medicaid in the fiscal cliff.
Efforts to Curb Social Spending Face Resistance
As Congress returned Monday, the debate over those programs, which many Democrats see as the core of the party’s identity, was shaping up as the Democratic version of the higher-profile struggle among Republicans over taxes.
In failed deficit reduction talks last year, Mr. Obama signaled a willingness to consider substantial changes in the social safety net, including a gradual increase in the eligibility age for Medicare and limits in the growth rate of future Social Security benefits. An urgent question hanging over the new round of deficit talks is which of those changes Mr. Obama and Congressional Democrats would accept today.
While a potential change in calculating Social Security increases was part of the talks with Speaker John A. Boehner last year, the White House press secretary, Jay Carney, made clear on Monday that the administration was not considering changes to the retirement program as part of the deficit talks.
“We should address the drivers of the deficit, and Social Security is not currently a driver of the deficit,” Mr. Carney said. In order to get to where the Democrats want: increase the tax rate on the wealthy, increase tax revenues but not from the middle class on down, small cuts to discretionary spending... it would be easier to fall off the cliff and then introduce tax cut legislation for everyone making less than $250K, followed by an omnibus spending bill reinstating some of the cuts to defense and domestic. That way Republicans can say they didn't violate their "Pledge" even arguing that they voted for tax cuts. Democrats can declare victory because it will be a substantial move towards a balanced budget and SS and Medicare/Medicaid remain strong.
Moreover, since the Supreme Court upheld the new health care law in June, Mr. Obama has become skittish about cutbacks in Medicaid, the federal-state program for low-income people. The court said the expansion of Medicaid was an option for states but not a requirement. Cutting federal Medicaid payments to states could reduce the federal budget deficit, but could also cripple Mr. Obama’s efforts to persuade governors to expand the program, the foundation of his health care overhaul. In talks with Congressional leaders, Mr. Obama is seeking $1.6 trillion in additional revenue over 10 years and $340 billion in health care savings. If he hopes to get a deal, lawmakers say, the additional revenue will have to come down and the health care savings may have to go up.
Mr. Obama and some Democrats in Congress say they are willing to squeeze savings from Medicare by trimming payments to drug companies, hospitals and other health care providers. They have generally ruled out structural changes that would increase costs for a typical beneficiary. One important tax cut that should remain in effect is the "payroll tax holiday". Here's why...
Payroll taxes are a relic of New Deal Machiavellianism: by taking a bite of every worker’s paycheck and promising postretirement returns, Franklin Roosevelt effectively disguised Social Security as a pay-as-you-go system, even though the program actually redistributes from rich to poor and young to old. That disguise has helped keep Social Security sacrosanct — hailed by Democrats because it protects the poor and backed by Republicans as a reward for steady work.
But the costs of this disguise have grown too great to bear. Whatever its past political advantages, the payroll tax now imposes an unnecessary burden on a stagnating economy. In an era of mass unemployment, mediocre wage growth and weak mobility from the bottom of the income ladder, it makes no sense to finance our retirement system with a tax that falls directly on wages and hiring and imposes particular burdens on small business and the working class.
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| | | 41 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 14:04
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My Soccer Mom in Sneakers Senator agrees with me.
A growing bloc of emboldened liberals say they’re not afraid to watch defense spending get gouged and taxes go up on every American if a budget deal doesn’t satisfy their priorities. Here’s what these progressives fear: an agreement that keeps lower tax rates for the wealthy, hits the social safety net with unpalatable cuts and leaves Pentagon spending unscathed. In other words, they’d rather walk the country off the cliff than watch President Barack Obama cave on long-held liberal priorities.
“If the Republicans can’t see their way to significant additional revenues targeted toward the people who are best off and targeted toward passive income and other things like that, then we’re better off going over the cliff and readdressing this with a better Congress in January,” Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.) said. “And we would have plenty of time to fix it.”
If tax rates snap back to the higher levels from the 1990s and painful budget cuts start to hit the Pentagon, these Democrats — led by Washington Sen. Patty Murray — believe they would wield more leverage over the GOP to enact a budget compromise on their terms. And with a January deal, Republicans would technically avoid violating the no-new-taxes pledge that most of them have signed because they would then be voting to cut taxes.
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| | | 42 | Boldwin
ID: 121044275 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 18:16
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Republicans would technically avoid violating the no-new-taxes pledge that most of them have signed because they would then be voting to cut taxes.
Winner winner, chicken dinner. I was not aware of that wrinkle, but there is the obvious channel the water will flow.
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| | | 43 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 19:04
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The Republicans clearly see that their negotiating position becomes much weaker over the cliff.
The Dems will get the tax structure they seek and will have significantly cut defense spending without touching Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. And all the Republicans get is a rhetorical argument that they didn't really raise taxes even though the resulting rates are exactly what Obama wanted with his tax hike.
Further, polling consistently says the public will blame the GOP if we go over the cliff. It's a big policy and political loser all around for them.
That's why they're rethinking the value of Norquist's ridiculous pledge. And of course the more who jump ship, the easier it is for others to follow in the cover provided by growing consensus.
Will there be a dying violent lunge from the tea party or will they pass quietly?
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| | | 52 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 11:15
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Question: I assume most people here, not all, are probably in favor higher taxes for the rich(however you might define this), but who is in favor of tax increase on the rich if it meant a tax increases on everyone(or at least the top half)? It can be a progressive, flat, or regressive tax increase. I am in favor of dropping the mortgage interest deduction(and most deduction for that matter) across all earners, but even that is not really across the board.
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| | | 53 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 11:21
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I think we might consider holding off on that given the difficulties in the housing market right now.
On the other hand, given the low interest rates right now, new mortgages won't be offering much in the way of interest to be deducted. Perhaps we might craft something which only applies to existing mortgages or something.
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| | | 54 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 11:24
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I believe that income taxes should be increased on everyone and payroll taxes kept low. I do not think that middle class Americans are paying enough to close the budget deficit.
I'm not against deductions, though I would rather have then as tax credits. That way the government is not making higher tax expenditures for people in the higher tax brackets. No caps on charitable credits, I would like to see a cap on mortgage credit, though.
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| | | 55 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 11:27
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On the other hand, given the low interest rates right now, new mortgages won't be offering much in the way of interest to be deducted.
Interest is front-loaded in a mortgage. In the first few of years of a 30 year mortgage, a very high percentage of the mortgage payments go to paying interest.
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| | | 56 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 12:15
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Right. But the overall amount of interest paid is a heck of a lot lower than it was even just a few years ago and so bankers will be getting the interest paid off much more quickly, I'd think. And it is the interest which is deductible.
I find it interesting that when the mortgage insurance deduction was carved out in the 1986 tax reform act, the limitations were pretty small. There seems to have been no belief that the deduction was there to drive home ownership on its own--it was that the largest personal loans, by far, were for houses.
Also, previous to the 1986 act, all personal loan interest was deductible (including credit card interest). So chalk up another "Nordquist tax hike" to Ronald Reagan.
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| | | 57 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 12:19
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Zen--I thought there was a cap on the credit, but I don't see that in some quick looking around. I'm probably confusing it with mortgage insurance.
Seems like a good idea to me. Or at least peg it to income in some way, such as an income percentage allowance cap.
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| | | 58 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 12:21
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Get rid of the mortgage interest deduction entirely.
Raise the capital gains and dividends taxes to 38%.
Raise income taxes on everyone making over 50K a year. Make a college tax credit of up to 10K a year.
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| | | 59 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 12:22
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Interest isnt front loaded, unless you dont do your homework in getting the loan. A front loaded loan, is one where in ALL of your initial payments are interest, not merely the majority. The first thing paid back is interest, in total, and then the principle. On any declining balance (installment) loan with interest, the early payments show more interest in terms of % of payment, than do later payments BECAUSE, the outstanding balance is more early vs later.
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| | | 60 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 12:22
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PD = I think it's a million.
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| | | 61 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 12:46
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Holy crap! Cap it.
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| | | 62 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 15:02
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Outside of charitable deduction, I think they should in general end most deductions that are designed to motivate people one way or another should be ended. Taxes should be what taxes are a way to pay for government not ways to direct peoples behavior. With that said I do agree that they do may a nice way to avoid making things illegal, ie tobacco or making things legal ie marijuana.
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| | | 63 | Boldwin
ID: 291029284 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 20:26
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Making lemonade. What a glorious opportunity to identify for removal, the remaining wafflers who keep the GOP from being a comfortable home for conservatives. Kick out the people who betray the GOP as the small government/less spending party.I started working on Saxby Chambliss’s campaign in 1994, the year he beat Craig Mathis. ... Saxby campaigned that Mathis would join Bill Clinton in raising taxes on the American people. A symbol of his commitment to not raise taxes was the Americans for Tax Reform pledge.
In the campaigns of 1994, 1996, 1998, and 2000 — all of which I actively volunteered on his campaign so much so that I had a key to the office and occasionally slept on the nasty, but incredibly comfortable couch in the back office — Chambliss kept an oversized copy of his ATR pledge at the front door of his campaign office. When his signature would begin to fade, he’d re-sign the pledge on top of his old signature. --- He has, in short, spoken like a champion of limited government, but voted like a free spending liberal for his own constituencies. Now, in the ultimate sign that Chambliss is ready to throw in the towel on any pretense, he signals he wants to raise taxes . . . . errrr . . . . “revenue.” --- Saxby Chambliss has been part of the problem and remains part of the problem.
A couple of years ago a mutual friend from Macon went up to see Saxby. There was a tea party rally going on. As our mutual friend sat in the office waiting for Saxby, his staff stood around ridiculing the tea party activists going by as simpletons, uneducated, hicks, and nuts. Chambliss himself has been overheard talking disparagingly of tea party activists in the Capitol Hill Club and elsewhere.
He has become entrenched in Washington, DC and thinks that we here in Georgia are the problem, not him. In 2005, he was convinced that we here in Georgia were the problem on immigration. Since then he’s been convinced that we here in Georgia are the problem by not sending enough money to Washington, D.C.
In fact, we here in Georgia should convince Saxby that we are a problem — his problem in his path to re-election. - Red State
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| | | 64 | Boldwin
ID: 291029284 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 21:09
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.@BrianRHarris I have zero interest in a party that believes in driving toward the destruction of this country in a lower gear.
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| | | 65 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 21:16
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You dont vote, so what interest do you have at all?
And if fiscal responsibility in REALITY is your mantra, then the Dems are closer to it by far than is the GOP.
link
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| | | 67 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 21:55
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VA, ND and IN.
ND went Romney 58.7% to 38.9%, IN went Romney 54.3% to 43.8%, VA went Obama 50.8% to 47.8%.
That is 3 Senators in Republican states, trying to set themselves up for re-election. Te Bush Tax Cuts for the top 1 or 2%, NEED to expire. THEY, are the primary drivers of our increased national debt, since they were installed.
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| | | 68 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 22:27
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From the article:
"Sounds like bipartisan support to me."
Actually, it isn't. Two of those three ask for the Bush tax cuts to end on higher income levels, an option rejected out of hand by the GOP and the rabble-rousing Tea Party.
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| | | 69 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Nov 29, 2012, 10:05
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3RD Quarter GDP Growth Revised Up The economy grew at a substantially faster pace in the third quarter than first thought, powered by increases in business inventories and federal spending.
After initially saying output increased at an annual rate of 2 percent, the Commerce Department on Thursday revised its estimate to show growth at a 2.7 percent rate in the three months that ended Sept. 30.
The newly estimated pace of growth represents a substantial increase in the level of expansion from the second quarter, when the economy grew at a rate of just 1.3 percent. It also marks the fastest rate of expansion since the fourth quarter of 2011, when the economy grew at a 4.1 percent annual pace.
This was the second of the government’s three estimates of quarterly growth. The final figure is scheduled for Dec. 20.
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| | | 70 | Boldwin
ID: 54115211 Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 10:52
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| | | 71 | Boldwin
ID: 54115211 Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 11:10
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| | | 72 | Boldwin
ID: 54115211 Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 13:16
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| | | 73 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 15:01
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Austerity is not the answer
Iceland’s stock market plunged 90 percent in 2008. Inflation reached 18 percent, unemployment shot up ninefold and its biggest banks failed. This was no recession. It was a full-blown depression.
So, what did Iceland do?
1) Bailed out homeowners, starting with those who have kids. 2) Jailed bankers who perpetrated the fraud. 3) Left investors, holding their own bad investments.
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| | | 74 | Boldwin
ID: 481111221 Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 23:03
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George Will: “The proper name for the “fiscal cliff” is: the Democratic Party’s agenda.”
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| | | 76 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Mon, Dec 03, 2012, 04:52
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" George Will: “The proper name for the “fiscal cliff” is: the Democratic Party’s agenda.”"
Do you even understand what you type any more?
The fiscal cliff is essentially enforced austerity. Please point to an agenda item from the democrats supporting enforced austerity.
Will hasn't been even in the middle, much less the top of his game since Reagan.
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| | | 77 | biliruben
ID: 28420307 Mon, Dec 03, 2012, 06:07
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New Yorker
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Tensions over the so-called fiscal cliff reached a boiling point today as House Speaker John Boehner accused President Obama of acting like he won the November election.
“Our message is clear: Mr. President, we are ready to negotiate with you,” Mr. Boehner told reporters. “But this nonsense of acting like you won the election has got to stop.”
Lashing out at Mr. Obama’s “delusional arrogance,” Mr. Boehner added, “I don’t know what planet he thinks he won an election on, but this whole ‘the American people elected me’ act is getting a little old.
A comedian after Baldwin's own heart.
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| | | 78 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Mon, Dec 03, 2012, 09:34
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Feels like that was written by the Onion not actual quotes from the most powerful Republican in America.
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| | | 79 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Dec 03, 2012, 09:41
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Borowitz is an editorialist, not a reporter.
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| | | 81 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Mon, Dec 03, 2012, 10:07
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I don't know if I'd call him an editorialist. I think he's more of a satirist, in the spirit of The Onion.
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| | | 82 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Mon, Dec 03, 2012, 10:16
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Yeah, satire.
The real message, I think, is that I had to verify it, because it might actually be something that Boehner would say.
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| | | 83 | Boldwin
ID: 421142310 Mon, Dec 03, 2012, 12:01
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He didn't win the election in the House.
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| | | 84 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Mon, Dec 03, 2012, 12:15
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Ah, so not actual quotes. That makes sense, but as bili said, it does sound in the realm of possibility.
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| | | 85 | R9
ID: 99272420 Mon, Dec 03, 2012, 21:38
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Snicker, now you know how this guy felt bili. ;)
Soooo..... having not followed the fiscal cliff stuff much besides wondering if all the politicos had removed their heads from their asses yet... is there any chance they'll remove their heads from their asses anytime soon? Recessions are bad for teh online pokerz.
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| | | 86 | Boldwin
ID: 281118321 Mon, Dec 03, 2012, 23:08
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No chance.
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| | | 87 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 23:09
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With President Obama insisting on higher tax rates for affluent Americans and winning public support for the idea, Congressional Republicans find themselves in an increasingly difficult political spot and are quietly beginning to look for a way out.
Republicans also know they have a problem: many liberal Democrats are more than willing to return to the Clinton-era tax code, and to allow across-the-board spending cuts to take effect, which disproportionately affect the military, rather than compromise too much with Republicans after the strong Democratic showing in the elections.
“It’s a terrible position because by default, Democrats get what they want,” said Representative James Lankford, Republican of Oklahoma, who admitted his party is boxed in. With his new backbone, Obama may just point to the 14th Amendment and thumb his nose at the debt ceiling. Then Republicans will have NOTHING to negotiate with and will finally understand what Democrats felt like in 2000 and 2004.
Given the difficulty of compromise, a fallback may emerge as a top option. Republican leaders could take up legislation already passed by the Senate to extend tax cuts on income under $250,000, attach a deferral or cancellation of the automatic spending cuts, and give Mr. Obama nothing else, denying requests for increased infrastructure spending, help for homeowners to refinance their mortgages, and extensions of the payroll tax cut and unemployment insurance.
Then Republicans would demand deep concessions on spending and changes to Medicare and Social Security as a price to raise the debt ceiling a few weeks later. Republicans say any such decision to follow that course is still a ways off.
There are significant problems with this possibility, starting with the estate tax. The Senate tax bill was silent on the federal tax on inherited estates, which means if the House passes that legislation at the last minute, estate taxes would rise to Clinton-era levels, with inheritances over $1 million taxed at 55 percent. Currently the value of estates over $5 million is taxed at 35 percent.
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| | | 88 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Dec 04, 2012, 23:18
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I've been rooting for Obama to ignore the debt limit for some time. Congress directed the Administration to spend certain amounts of money (and SCOTUS has indicated that he cannot unilaterally withhold money once Congress has directed payment). As far as I am concerned, the "debt limit" is a self-imposed, normally ignored number that Congress puts on itself.
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| | | 91 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 12:52
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It was kinda humorous, but I wish there was more on what's actually in Simpson-Bowles. Specifically, how they got to 2 trillion in revenue over 10 years without raising marginal rates.
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| | | 92 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 13:07
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TY for that one MITH.
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| | | 93 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 17:15
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#91: Ezra Klein covers some of this, bili.
Remember that the plan included getting rid of the Bush tax cuts on those over $250K before they started tinkering with the code.
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| | | 94 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 17:40
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Wow, Simpson-Bowles is much better than I thought!
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| | | 96 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Mon, Dec 10, 2012, 12:03
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Tax Arithmetic Shows Top Rate Is Just a Starter Even if the parties agree to go back to the Clinton-era tax rates, that alone won't generate enough revenue.
The math shows why. Even if Republicans were to agree to Mr. Obama’s core demand — that the top marginal income rates return to the Clinton-era levels of 36 percent and 39.6 percent after Dec. 31, rather than stay at the Bush-era rates of 33 percent and 35 percent — the additional revenue would be only about a quarter of the $1.6 trillion that Mr. Obama wants to collect over 10 years. That would be about half of the $800 billion that Republicans have said they would be willing to raise. In recent days, comments from some Republicans, including Mr. Boehner, their chief negotiator, have hinted that the party — recognizing its weak hand — might be moving toward a concession on tax rates. Seldom mentioned is that Mr. Obama’s revenue total also reflects four other changes from Bush-era tax cuts: higher tax rates on investment income from capital gains and dividends, and the restoration of two other Clinton-era provisions limiting deductions and tax exemptions for affluent individuals.
Together those changes would raise $407.4 billion over a decade — nearly as much as the president’s proposal on higher rates, which would raise $441.6 billion by 2023, for a total of $849 billion. Another $119 billion would come from higher estate taxes, opposed by Republicans and some Democrats. Here's a chart showing how much revenue is generated by changes in the tax code.
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| | | 97 | Boldwin
ID: 2811321220 Wed, Dec 12, 2012, 22:17
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Deficit of $172B in November is more than the Bush deficit for the entire year of 2007.
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| | | 98 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 14:52
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A broad swath of the nation’s leading chief executives dropped its opposition to tax increases on the wealthiest Americans on Tuesday
Before Tuesday’s about-face, the Business Roundtable had insisted that the White House extend Bush-era tax cuts to taxpayers of all income brackets, but the executives’ resistance crumbled as pressure builds to find a compromise for the fiscal impasse in Washington before the end of the year.
“We recognize that part of the solution has to be tax increases,” David M. Cote, chief executive of Honeywell, said on a conference call with reporters. “That’s the only thing that allows a reasonable compromise to be reached.”
Even as the Fortune 500 leaders announced their shift, the White House continued to work behind the scenes to woo some of Wall Street’s most powerful financiers — a group that had largely abandoned President Obama in his bid for a second term after supporting him in 2008.
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| | | 99 | Boldwin
ID: 411191315 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 16:31
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I wonder what crony handouts Obama handed out to the handful of conservatives in that mainly liberal bunch?
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| | | 100 | Tree
ID: 111141314 Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 17:09
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what part of a group that had largely abandoned President Obama in his bid for a second term after supporting him in 2008 are you not understanding.
never mind that Cote is a Republican, or that the Business Roundtable is a politically conservative organization.
facts be damned, let's blame Obama for something bad, like people reaching across the aisle and working together!
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| | | 102 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 01:47
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...we're likely to see a very different US House makeup after the 2014 elections.
We can hope, but with the gerrymandering done right after the census, common theory I hear on other boards/forums, holds that the party with the state house majorities at the time, will hold their House edge for a decade.
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| | | 103 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 02:42
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That's the fear, of course. But the GOP can only fear monger so longer before their lack of either legislative or policy success starts to hurt their constituencies. They simply can't fool all the people for very long.
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| | | 104 | Boldwin
ID: 141135191 Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 03:54
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Every increase in the size of government that conservatives thwart is helping their constituency and that is how their base sees it.
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| | | 105 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 08:54
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Like most things, Gerrymandering can have unexpected consequences. And while populations don't shift quickly, a gerrymandered area, could shift and not be as biased at it first seems.
In the unintended consequences department is Indiana's 2nd Senate seat. One of the main reasons why Joe Donnelly decided to run for the seat was his district was gerrymandered to ensure a Republican won. The Republican barely won, I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't win re-election in two years.
This is especially true if the Republican's push us over the self-imposed cliff. Unemployment where I am is down to 8.5%, after hitting 20% at it's peak. Since the majority of industry here (RV manufacturing) is very sensitive to the economy, another collapse will push unemployment back to those levels very quickly.
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| | | 106 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Dec 21, 2012, 00:46
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Boehner gambles on Plan B and loses, as his right flank rejects any tax increases, on any one, for any reason.
He must feel like the sanest person in an asylum taken over by the patients, trying to negotiate with the outside world.
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| | | 107 | Boldwin
ID: 41148209 Fri, Dec 21, 2012, 01:13
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He should hand the job to someone else before he is pushed out. He doesn't have their confidence.
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| | | 109 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Fri, Dec 21, 2012, 08:13
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| | | 110 | Boldwin
ID: 41148209 Fri, Dec 21, 2012, 10:51
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Reagan Moment. Do...Not...Blink.
Forget about making a Dem-Lite deal.
Remember that time Bush traded away his stated principles "Read...My...Lips" and got his own political downfall and years of Republicans wandering in the wilderness for it?
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| | | 111 | Boldwin
ID: 41148209 Fri, Dec 21, 2012, 10:53
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Plus Boehner was making the bone-headed mistake of dealing away their own position between themselves.
You don't deal away anything without getting something back from the other side ever.
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| | | 112 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Fri, Dec 21, 2012, 11:31
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Remind me again how many times Reagan compromised. Never? How many times did he raise taxes?
Reagan would rip the tea party a new one.
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| | | 113 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Fri, Dec 21, 2012, 14:37
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as his right flank rejects any tax increases, on any one, for any reason.
I LOVE it! No need to continue negotiations anymore. Let the new year come and pass tax cuts on the below $250,000 brackets. SS will be untouched. Defense spending cut way back. Pass some bills to reinstate many of the domestic cuts. AND IGNORE THE DEBT CEILING! Declare victory and remove marijuana from the schedule - part five - celebrate!
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| | | 114 | Boldwin
ID: 5111492117 Fri, Dec 21, 2012, 18:59
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You guys voted for a high taxer. You voted for the party of weaker national defense. You got what you wanted. Live with it.
Or reduce spending finally.
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| | | 115 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Dec 22, 2012, 14:45
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No need to continue negotiations anymore
I agree. A GOP which basically wants to get rid of any planned military cuts (a military twice as big as it was just ten years ago) is unserious. And we can tell this by the fact that instead of any serious proposals we get insults.
Reduce spending! Except for the bloated military! Because that is our stimulus program!
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| | | 116 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Dec 22, 2012, 15:00
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The GOP isnt REALLY interested in reducing spending If they were, they'd have taken Obamas offered compromise in 2011, and reduced spending by VAST amounts.
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| | | 117 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Dec 22, 2012, 15:03
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Part of it, though, is that they are really bad at politics. They are like the Palestinians in that way--rejecting things even in their best interest, because they are more interested in opposing the other side (also, they probably are a bit scared of doing something other than insulting the other side, since they have been doing it for so long they don't know any other way).
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| | | 118 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 17:28
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Fiscal cliff primer.
So in every category, Obama has moved further towards Boehner than Boehner moved towards Obama. And yet, it’s Boehner who walked from the talks with his plan B, failed to pass it, and then handed the problem off to the Senate.
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| | | 119 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 11:53
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So when the new congress is sworn in, are there enough GOP house members that would join the Dems and isolate the tea-party members who have, apparently, sworn not to govern?
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| | | 120 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 13:01
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Gee, where have I heard this before:
If we blame, Obama will blame the Republicans Hmm, can't quite put my finger on it, but it sounds oddly familiar. There is a big political debate. There is a heavily divided lines between parties. And Obama puts all the blame on the other side for any potential failures. Nope. Can't think of where I heard that one before.
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| | | 121 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 13:05
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Khahan - read the article PD posted in 118. I think it does a very fair job of assigning "blame" and explaining why "both sides are to blame" is not appropriate in this instance.
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| | | 122 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 13:14
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A close reading of Obama's remarks today reveals that the tax rate changes alone on the wealthy (presumably back to the Clinton levels) would be enough to prevent sequesterization on their onw. But the GOP wants it all.
Sometimes, Khahan, when two sides can't come together on something it is, indeed, one side that is to blame.
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| | | 123 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 14:25
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The middle class suffers, as the wealthy thrive
The policy positions on both sides presage smaller government, which is not the right prescription for an economy still struggling to recover. There will be lower federal spending at a time when the government participation in the economy is still crucial; there will be less take-home pay for the middle class and the working class, who pump almost everything they have into the marketplace.
The disagreement in Washington is no longer whether to cut, but where and by how much; and whether the seemingly inevitable end of the payroll tax holiday for working men and women will be balanced by continuation of their reduced income tax rates.
In their pursuit to protect the "job creators", who FTR are not creating jobs. the GOP has chosen to deliberately throw the rest of us under the bus, then drag our bodies over to the tracks so the train can run us over too.
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| | | 124 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 14:40
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I think they sincerely believe that any recovery will be a trickle down one, where the wealthy have the economic freedom to make investment and other decisions to drive the economy and turn it around themselves.
I think they are nuts. If we know anything from recent years, the wealthy are hoarding their money and are not investing in anything close to the cost of the rest of us, and this subsidizing of the wealthy needs to stop.
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| | | 125 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 14:57
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I think they sincerely believe that any recovery will be a trickle down one,...
I dont. I dont think they believe that for one second. Its just what they say, to try and sell it, to the voting public.
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| | | 128 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Mon, Dec 31, 2012, 16:03
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126 - yes because that is not a completely one-sided view of the bills being blocked without looking at the impact, any riders attached or the real meat of the bill. Completely unbiased.
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| | | 129 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Dec 31, 2012, 16:07
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Seriously K? The GOP, ANNOUNCED a long time ago, their ONLY priority was eliminating Pres Obama and making him a 1 termer. They had no intent then of governing, and they still dont. I seriously HAVE to question the sanity, of anyone who thinks otherwise.
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| | | 130 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Mon, Dec 31, 2012, 18:58
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I don't agree with the analysis in the article PD posted in 127. I think the payroll tax cuts are more important than unemployment extensions and I want to see large defense cuts take effect and watch the GOP bellyache for some spending increases...
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| | | 131 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Mon, Dec 31, 2012, 20:26
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I think it's a bad deal, but not as bad as it could have been. When Obama said no tax breaks over 250K. Line in sand. He should have meant it.
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| | | 132 | Boldwin
ID: 2702710 Tue, Jan 01, 2013, 04:25
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A liberal whose lips are moving: So in every category, Obama has moved further towards Boehner than Boehner moved towards Obama. - PD's link in #118.At one point, according to notes taken by a participant, Mr. Boehner told the president, “I put $800 billion [in tax revenue] on the table. What do I get for that?”
“You get nothing,” the president said. “I get that for free.”
How do you negotiate with this guy? It’s hard, if not impossible. President Obama’s plans are broader, though. He will only accept a deal if it fundamentally splits the Republican Party and begins the process of breaking the GOP’s decades-long opposition to raising taxes. More than anything else, the disruption of the opposition party is President Obama’s goal. The only reasonable answer to Obama's nogotiating position is "Come back when you've finished the PR campaign and are willing to negotiate."
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| | | 133 | DWetzel
ID: 312362513 Tue, Jan 01, 2013, 09:27
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Given that the people he's negotiating with have publicly stated that their only goal is to make him fail, yes, he gets to be as much of a dick to them in private at this point as he wants. If they can't handle getting butthurt in closed door negotiations they can take up another profession.
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| | | 134 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Jan 01, 2013, 12:16
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He actually wasn't being a dick. Boehner was trying to doublecount and got busted for it. You can see why he slunk away with his tail between his legs.
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| | | 137 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Jan 01, 2013, 14:19
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The real question is whether the House GOP will vote for the deal. They haven't actually scheduled a vote yet on it, and both parties are caucusing right now.
I suspect Boehner's last act as Speaker will be to ask Pelosi to save the deal from his own party. If he gets 30 or so Republicans and almost all the Dems to vote for it, it will pass. But I can't see Pelosi doing that without some concessions.
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| | | 138 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Tue, Jan 01, 2013, 14:57
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Slice em up and expose the faux congressmen.
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| | | 141 | Boldwin
ID: 22052119 Tue, Jan 01, 2013, 21:03
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I hope this isn't decided by some unaccountable reconciliation committee.
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| | | 143 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Tue, Jan 01, 2013, 23:36
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Good. I guess.
Hopefully this is the bell tolling for the anti-governing caucus.
I am actually heartened there are still 85 mentally competent Republicans in the house. I thought it would be half that.
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| | | 144 | Boldwin
ID: 22052119 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 05:44
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The bell is tolling for Article I, Section 7 which states that all revenue bills shall originate in the House of Representatives
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| | | 145 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 06:11
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No argument there. This was embarrassing.
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| | | 146 | Boldwin
ID: 22052119 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 06:11
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Boehner to Reid: ‘Go F Yourself’ Tho this is probably congress-speak for 'See you afterwards for martini's at Lounge 201?'. And at any rate is just waving 'scent of manliness' in the conservative's general direction hoping they are fooled by the pose.
Time for the Cantor 20 to revolt.
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| | | 147 | Boldwin
ID: 22052119 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 07:19
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American Majority Action spokesman Ron Meyer told Breitbart News late Tuesday that enough House Republicans have banded together in an effort to unseat House Speaker John Boehner from his position--they just need a leader to take up the mantle.
“At least 20 House Republican members have gotten together, discussed this and want to unseat Speaker Boehner--and are willing to do what it takes to do it,” Meyer said. “That’s more than enough to get the job done, but the one problem these guys face is they need a leader to coalesce behind.” --- The vote for Boehner’s re-election as Speaker happens on Thursday, two days after Boehner’s decision to support the Senate "fiscal cliff" deal Vice President Joe Biden cut with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell on New Year’s Eve. Off the cuff I seem to recall that since Dems won't vote for him, Boehner can be blocked by just 18 steadfast tea partiers.
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| | | 148 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:43
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Even though Boehner is getting all the pub as the one tarnished in this debacle, Harry Reid deserves just as many negative reviews for his part. It took Joe Biden to step in and take the lead for Democrats to forge a deal with McConnell, leaving Reid on the sidelines with egg on his face.
Reid and Pelosi are just as embarrassing, maybe even more so, than the Republican congressional leadership. Obama showed little leadership in his role, beyond posturing for the cameras. It's fortunate he has a congressionally saavy VP who understands how to forge a deal and get it passed. Obama is also fortunate that Biden is content maintaining a low profile, eschewing an opportunity to mug for the cameras on every cable news network and bask in his glory as the dealmaker, something Obama couldn't accomplish.
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| | | 149 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 11:20
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So how many "real conservatives" does Kermit Norquist have to round up to run against the Republicans who voted for tax increases? Over 100?
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| | | 150 | Razor
ID: 177192916 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 11:33
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Norquist already read the writing on the wall and decided to somehow back the fiscal cliff deal despite it raising taxes. He's realized that in the past 3 weeks, he's gone from conservative demigod to irrelevant and decided to publicly make statements anyway indicating his approval for the deal despite no one caring.
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| | | 151 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 11:34
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According to Norquist, those Republicans didn't vote for a tax increase.
It’s technically not a violation of the pledge, but I understand why a lot of Republicans had said, look, even though what’s happening is the tax cuts disappear and we’re restoring them for most people, so we’re not raising taxes. We’re actually cutting taxes.
I guess what he's saying is, "I'm irrelevant."
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| | | 152 | nerveclinic
ID: 569232410 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 13:26
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haven't read the whole thread.
here is the Readers Digest Version.
Five Things need to happen.
1) Raise Taxes on the Rich even more then we just did.
2) Raise taxes on Middle Class to a lesser extent
3) Raise the age requirements for Social Security significantly
4) Raise the age requirements for Medicare significantly
5) Cut Military spending significantly
If all of the above happens the country is saved but it can only happens when the economy improves, and they all have to happen.
Does the USA government/Poli's have the guts to do it?
Not a chance
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| | | 153 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 13:53
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4) Raise the age requirements for Medicare significantly
That's not as obvious as other Medicare issues
Do politicians have enough guts to address this issue without bringing up death panels and euthanasia?
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| | | 164 | Boldwin
ID: 1902939 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 10:49
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Paul Ryan explains his yes vote in a good interview with Hugh Hewitt.
About as good a case as a conservative could make. I won't be satisfied with his explanation until he couples this with a solid NO to debt ceiling increases later.
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| | | 165 | Boldwin
ID: 1902939 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 10:55
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Republicans would technically avoid violating the no-new-taxes pledge that most of them have signed because they would then be voting to cut taxes. - SZ#41
Winner winner, chicken dinner. I was not aware of that wrinkle, but there is the obvious channel the water will flow. - B#42
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| | | 167 | Boldwin
ID: 1902939 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 13:03
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Congressman King, he of the 'hell with the GOP and especially Boehner if they won't put up for a vote a porkbarrel bill with Sandy relief in it'...
...just tucked tail and voted for Boehner as speaker.
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| | | 168 | Boldwin
ID: 1902939 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 13:09
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2 for West, 1 for Amash, 1 for Cantor, 1 for Labrador, 1 for Jordan, 1 for Walker = 11 GOP defections so far...
They need 18 to kick boehner afaik.
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| | | 173 | Building 7
ID: 87592712 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 13:18
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Senators Got 154-Page 'Fiscal Cliff' Bill 3 Minutes Before Voting on It
The U.S. Senate voted 89-8 to approve legislation to avoid the fiscal cliff despite having only 3 minutes to read the 154-page bill and budget score. Multiple Senate sources have confirmed to CNSNews.com that senators received the bill at approximately 1:36 AM on Jan. 1, 2013 – a mere three minutes before they voted to approve it at 1:39 AM. The bill is 154-pages and includes several provisions that are unrelated to the fiscal cliff, including repealing a section of ObamaCare, extending the wind-energy tax credit, and a rum tax subsidy deal for Puerto Rican rum makers....
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| | | 174 | Boldwin
ID: 1902939 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 13:20
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He got 216 votes in the first reading.
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| | | 175 | Boldwin
ID: 1902939 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 13:22
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He picked them up in the second, 'presents and abstaining' can change I guess.
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| | | 176 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 14:02
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Got his 220.
It is probably worth noting that, unless another candidate like Cantor was going to himself get 220 votes, and splitting the GOP vote would have made Nancy Pelosi the Speaker. The prospect of another Speakership for her was enough to tamp down the Tea Party revolt this time.
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| | | 177 | Tree
ID: 1910562515 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 14:19
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Congressman King, he of the 'hell with the GOP and especially Boehner if they won't put up for a vote a porkbarrel bill with Sandy relief in it'...
...just tucked tail and voted for Boehner as speaker.
blah blah blah. you missed a whole news cycle.
from yesterday evening
A New York lawmaker says House Speaker John Boehner has promised votes to aid victims of Superstorm Sandy by Jan. 15...
...King said Boehner made the promise in a private meeting with lawmakers from affected states. King and others said they were now satisfied that the aid will be forthcoming.
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| | | 178 | Boldwin
ID: 1902939 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 15:26
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PD#176
The problem with that reading of the situation afaik is that she also would have had to get 217 votes and they could have voted everyday for the next two years without getting her seated.
Cantor could have gotten 217 if Boehner had been forced to step off.
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| | | 180 | nerveclinic
ID: 569232410 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 08:41
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The sad thing about the all the hand wringing and name calling by the right on the current budget situation and the current deficit is they don't really understand the science of economics.
Spending has not gone up under Obama except for a one time stimulus (Something Bush did also) and for the health care law (Which had funding to go with it so there is not an effect on the deficit.)
The main reason for the increase in the deficit is that Obama was handed the worst economic crisis since the great depression. Economics 101 when the economy gets this bad revenues drop dramatically which increases the deficit. The deficits have been caused by decreased revenues due to lower tax collection due to a poor economy, not increased spending.
But once again don't let the facts get in the way.
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| | | 181 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 19:51
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That, and tax revenues being at historic, unsustainable lows.
The GOP has starved the beast for 20 years. Now it's time for the other shoe to drop, and start dismantling SS and Medicare. Or so they hope.
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| | | 183 | Boldwin
ID: 51036421 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 23:19
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Middle-class workers will take a bigger hit to their income proportionately than those earning between $200,000 and $500,000 under the new fiscal cliff deal, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.
Earners in the latter group will pay an average 1.3 percent more – or an additional $2,711 – in taxes this year, while workers making between $30,000 and $200,000 will see their paychecks shrink by as much as 1.7 percent – or up to $1,784 – the D.C.-based think tank reported.
Overall, nearly 80 percent of households will pay more money to the federal government as a result of the fiscal cliff deal. Tax Policy Center, via The Daily Mail, via Gateway Pundit And you bought that load about Obama championing the middle class?
Your financial pain, his glee...
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| | | 184 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 23:49
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Defining the middle claas.
It's almost certainly not $200K/year and above. Median household (not individual) income in the US is a shade over $50,000/year.
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| | | 185 | Boldwin
ID: 51036421 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 23:58
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80 percent of households will pay more
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| | | 186 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 00:11
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how much comes from ending the payroll tax holiday? THAT, would exlpain immediately, why the discrepancy, since FICA is capped annually.
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| | | 187 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 00:25
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Some, I'm sure.
The Right whines about the deficit. Then whines because paying it back affects a lot of people.
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| | | 188 | Boldwin
ID: 51036421 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 01:16
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When your goal is to bring everyone down to the level of the bottom 20%, regressive taxes are the best thing since sliced bread.
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| | | 189 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 01:24
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No B, as usual you have that bassackwards. REGRESSIVE taxes, are those which hit the poor the hardest. Things like sales tax. PROGRESSIVE taxes, hit the wealthiest, the hardest. Like in theory, Income Tax.
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| | | 191 | Boldwin
ID: 1303155 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 14:16
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Russia has a flat tax of 13%.
But Obama can't make it on 39%Take note, Mr. President: Russia's flat-tax miracle has helped bring its budget back into balance. Its revenues from income taxes have more than doubled since the single, low tax rate was instated.
Since abolishing its agriculture tax and slashing its tax on small businesses by 50%, China has enjoyed the world's biggest gains in the number of rich
As part of its post-crisis economic stimulus package, Beijing is reforming its VAT tax, which would cut corporate taxes as well. And just two months ago, it launched a new round of tax-cutting measures that will help more than 900,000 companies throughout China.
Meanwhile, back in formerly supercapitalistic America, our leaders have agreed to jack up taxes on small businesses. Obama's new fiscal-cliff tax hike on individual filers earning $400,000 or more in income will hit more than 750,000 small-business owners. They account for more than 56% of all income from such firms and employ tens of millions of workers, both of which will be hurt by the higher rate.
Yet Obama says "there is still more to do" to make sure "the wealthiest Americans pay their fair share." He vows to make "our tax code more progressive than it's been in decades."
Funny how the Russians and Chinese figured out that class-warfare ideology doesn't work and is in fact, a recipe for failure. Funny how communists know that lower taxes grow the economy and keep you competitive.
As our president mau-maus the rich to "pay their fair share" to help fund his massive social programs, America, like Europe, risks losing a fair share of its wealth and power to communist superpowers that have rethought and reformed their command-and-control economies.
Obama thinks he's taking the nation "Forward!" But he's really taking it back to the failed past.
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| | | 192 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 14:32
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Yeah, because the economic growth of an emerging economy, is comparable to one where the wealthy have created stagnation, so as to preserve their own status.
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| | | 193 | Tree
ID: 35054512 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 14:48
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meanwhile, in the real world.
The Russian Federation is a considered a prime case of the success of a flat tax; the real revenues from its Personal Income Tax rose by 25.2% in the first year after the Federation introduced a flat tax, followed by a 24.6% increase in the second year, and a 15.2% increase in the third year.
The Laffer curve predicts such an outcome, attributing the primary reason for the greater revenue to higher levels of economic growth stemming from the introduction of the flat tax.
The Russian example is often used as proof of the validity of this analysis, despite an International Monetary Fund study in 2006 which found that there was no sign "of Laffer-type behavioral responses generating revenue increases from the tax cut elements of these reforms" in Russia or in other countries.
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| | | 194 | Boldwin
ID: 1303155 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 18:45
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If only we were an emerging economy.
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| | | 195 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 19:33
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That was 120 years ago, and it was NOT a good time to be a blue collar laborer.
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| | | 196 | Boldwin
ID: 13025520 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 21:31
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“What happened?” he asked. “My paycheck just went down by an amount that I don’t feel comfortable with. I guarantee this decrease will hurt me more than the increase in income taxes will hurt those making over $400,000.” - democratic underground poster. Priceless
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| | | 197 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 21:32
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and he has the House Republicans to thank for it.
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| | | 198 | Boldwin
ID: 13025520 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 21:42
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Sure, blame the side trying to prevent all tax increases while taking unbelievable media fire for it. You are shameless Sarge.
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| | | 199 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 21:49
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No, I am honest. The rich...have been coddled for too long. Time for them to pay up.
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| | | 200 | Boldwin
ID: 13025520 Sat, Jan 05, 2013, 21:50
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Tell it to the paycheck the DU poster is holding.
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| | | 201 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 10:21
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Obama wanted an extension of the payroll tax, which is what you are mainly bitching and whining about. It was a tax increase that the GOP "won" in negotiations.
Talk to McConnell.
As for he rich loving Russia - let 'em have the fancified leaches.
I'll take the folks who do the work instead.
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| | | 202 | Boldwin
ID: 609622 Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 23:26
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...and turn them into government dependents.
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| | | 203 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 23:28
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Mr. Snappy.
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| | | 204 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Jan 18, 2013, 10:51
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Krauthammer Today understands what many Republicans just can't seem to wrap their heads around:What divides Republicans today is a straightforward tactical question: Can you govern from one house of Congress? Should you even try? Can you shrink government, restrain spending, bring a modicum of fiscal sanity to the country when the President and a blocking Senate have no intention of doing so?
One faction feels committed to try. It wishes to carry out its small-government electoral promises and will cast no vote inconsistent with that philosophy. These are the House Republicans who voted no on the “fiscal cliff” deal because it raised taxes without touching spending. Indeed, it increased spending with its crazy-quilt crony-capitalist tax “credits” — for wind power and other indulgences.
They were willing to risk the fiscal cliff. Today they are willing to risk a breach of the debt ceiling and even a government shutdown rather than collaborate with Obama’s tax-and-spend agenda.
The other view is that you cannot govern from the House. The reason Ryan and John Boehner finally voted yes on the lousy fiscal-cliff deal is that by then there was nowhere else to go.
Republicans could not afford to bear the blame (however unfair) for a $4.5 trillion across-the-board tax hike and a Pentagon hollowed out by sequester.
The party establishment is coming around to the view that if you try to govern from one house — e.g., force spending cuts with cliffhanging brinkmanship — you lose. You not only don’t get the cuts. You get the blame for rattled markets and economic uncertainty. You get humiliated by having to cave in the end. And you get opinion polls ranking you below head lice and colonoscopies in popularity.
There is history here. The Gingrich Revolution ran aground when it tried to govern from Congress, losing badly to President Clinton over government shutdowns. Nor did the modern insurgents do any better in the 2011 debt-ceiling and 2012 fiscal-cliff showdowns with Obama.
Obama’s postelection arrogance and intransigence can put you in a fighting mood. I sympathize. But I’m tending toward the realist view: Don’t force the issue when you don’t have the power.
The debt-ceiling deadline is coming up. You can demand commensurate spending cuts, the usual, reasonable Republican offer. But you won’t get them. Obama will hold out. And, at the 11th hour, you will have to give in as you get universally blamed for market gyrations and threatened credit downgrades.
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| | | 205 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Jan 19, 2013, 22:32
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Caymans not going to be a financial dumping grounds any more
The British overseas territory, which wants to shed its reputation for clandestine financial activity, is introducing sweeping reforms that will make public the names of thousands of previously hidden companies and their directors.
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| | | 208 | Boldwin
ID: 10055219 Mon, Jan 21, 2013, 11:09
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When even 'Nobel Laureate' Paul Krugman sides with Milton Friedman and says you are wrong...you are just plain wrong.
And you are also the answer to the 'Jeopardy' question, 'who occasioned hell freezing over?'.
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| | | 209 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Mon, Jan 21, 2013, 12:21
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For some reason Brennan didn't link to Krugman's actual article.
Here it is.
... and a follow-up.
Duncan Black suggests that there’s still a macroeconomic case for targeting economic aid on people with lower incomes; e.g, food stamps yes, cuts in the capital gains tax no. Very much so! In fact, in a way the same argument I made for not making too much of high-income saving and low-income dissaving also makes the case for aid right now to the bottom half of the distribution.
Here’s how it goes: at any point in time, those with lower incomes include a high proportion of people doing temporarily badly. Many of those people will be “liquidity-constrained” — out of liquid assets, and unable to borrow except at high rates. These are people who will spend a large fraction of any aid, and therefore transfers to that group will have a much bigger multiplier effect than, say, tax cuts for the rich.
It’s even better, of course, to target aid on those we know are in temporary distress — which is why unemployment insurance is an especially effective stimulus.
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| | | 210 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Jan 25, 2013, 00:36
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This I did not know;
In the past 30 years, Cngress has only passed 4 budgets, Cart FY '77, Reagan FY '89 and Clinton FY '95 and FY '97
The House of Representatives has passed what is known as the No Budget, No Pay Act of 2013. This Act will withhold the pay of all members of either house of Congress, starting on April 16, 2013, if a budget resolution for fiscal year 2014 isn’t passed by April 15. The pay will be put into an escrow account until such time that a budget does get passed, or until the last day of the 113th Congress, whichever comes first. It applies to all 535 members.
It’s no secret that Congress didn’t pass a budget at all from 2010 to 2012, but what may not be well known is that they’ve only passed budgets four times in the last 30 years. The Washington Post reports that Congress has typically relied on omnibus bills and continuing resolutions to keep the government operating recently, and that budgets have only passed in 1977, 1989, 1995 and 1997. No budgets actually passed under either Bush Sr. or Bush Jr., and have not passed so far under Obama either.
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