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| Posted by: Khahan
- [39432178] Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 15:57
Initial reports are not good. 2 explosions 5-15 seconds apart at the Boston Marathon finish line went off today. As of now 2 confirmed casualties but that number is expected to rise as they are sorting thru debris.
Still the possibility this is something like a gas main (or otherwise not terroristic or specifically man-made), but my gut says homegrown psychopath. As more information comes in it sounds less and less like an accident. |
| | | 1 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 16:02
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my gut says right wing extremist. It's Patriots' Day in Massachusetts.
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| | | 2 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 16:27
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Hate to say it but I wouldn't be surprised if tree was right.
So far 2 confirmed explosions. I've also heard a 3rd device was found at the mandarin hotel and supposedly there was a controlled explosion that some think were police detonating another device. That's 4 possible. I had heard about the controlled explosion before any reports of the other device at the hotel so it seems unlikely that controlled explosion was that particular device (and thats all unconfirmed reports).
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| | | 3 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 16:28
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2 dead, 23 injured, per the AP.
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| | | 4 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 16:44
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i am reminded of the bombing at the Olympics, which was committed by a right wing extremist, in part, due to his stance on abortion. same jackhole also bombed a lesbian bar.
lovely bunch, those "pro-life" folks...
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| | | 5 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 16:46
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There will be a live press conference held by officials from multiple law enforcement agencies coming up in a few minutes.
Every broadcast news network should be set up to carry it live.
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| | | 6 | Balrog Dude
ID: 02856618 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 16:48
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The 26th mile of the marathon (where the bombs were) was dedicated to the Newton victims.
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| | | 7 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 16:50
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Press Release from NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg:
“As law enforcement authorities investigate today’s explosions in Boston, I ask all New Yorkers to keep the victims and their families in your thoughts and prayers. I have spoken with Police Commissioner Ray Kelly, and the NYPD has stepped up security at strategic locations and critical infrastructure, including our subways. Some of the security steps we are taking may be noticeable, including deployment of Critical Response Vehicles and additional police personnel, and others will not be. We have 1,000 members of the NYPD assigned to counter-terrorism duties, and they – along with the entire NYPD and the investments we have made in counter-terrorism infrastructure – are being fully mobilized to protect our city.”
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| | | 8 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 16:53
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Uncertain about # of deaths. (I think) The mayor of Boston or maybe the police chief is holding a conference right now. I'm watching it on abc live news stream. He stated there were 2 distinct explosions and each scene had multiple casualties.
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| | | 9 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:03
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A third bomb went off at the JFK library more than an hour later.
AP reporting that all cell phone service has been shut down in Boston to prevent remote detonations.
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| | | 10 | barilko6
ID: 63161516 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:16
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I think this might be my first post in the politics form, but I find post 4 very offensive.
To label all pro-lifers with such an overtly prejudiced statement such as that is both intolerant and small-minded.
This would be similar to stating that all muslims are "a lovely bunch" based on the results of 9-11.
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| | | 11 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:18
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Not sure what the point is of making random speculations with no basis for fact? "right-wing extremist" "pro-life folks" "homegrown psychopath"
I find it transparent and disgusting.
If we want to point to something with at least some facts behind it...it was the first election since the US withdrawal in Iraq today. Many bombs went off in Baghdad that were blamed on Al Qaeda...could be coordinated with US attacks.
Latest report...Potential suspect in custody, a Saudi National.
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| | | 12 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:21
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#10: I certainly agree. It is one thing to speculate, but another to speculative smear.
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| | | 13 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:23
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I think this might be my first post in the politics form, but I find post 4 very offensive.
To label all pro-lifers with such an overtly prejudiced statement such as that is both intolerant and small-minded.
nowhere did i label all pro lifers with anything. i said "those 'pro-life' folks," which was referring to those who use terror, fear, and death to further their agenda.
if you call yourself a pro-lifer, yet you murder and kill, you're hardly a pro-lifer.
I find it transparent and disgusting.
yep. heaven forbid we speculate. it's a message board. that's pretty much what we do. we speculate and we discuss.
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| | | 14 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:25
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Potential suspect in custody, a Saudi National.
link?
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| | | 15 | barilko6
ID: 63161516 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:27
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Re: 13 Whatever. Your intent came through loud and clear.
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| | | 16 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:27
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Sorry to pile on but 10, 11 & 12 are right.
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| | | 19 | PuNk42AE Donor
ID: 036635522 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:35
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BPD stated that the NYPost story is bunk
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| | | 20 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:37
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i rarely consider the Post to be the source of something breaking. they may very well be right, but i'll take it with a grain of salt (not to mention the Post's source is FoxNews) for now...
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| | | 21 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:39
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boston globe website apparently overwhelmed by the traffic in the wake of the story.
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| | | 22 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:40
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NY Post also reporting 12 dead and 50 injured.
However keep in mind that they aren't the most reliable source and in a major breaking news situation a lot of media get burned for jumping the gun and reporting bad facts.
I also saw a NYP report that the JFK Library explosion was linked to the marathon bombs but the law enforcement news conference specifically wouldn't confirm that and CNN is reporting that it was actually related to a fire.
This type of media confusion and impatience during major breaking news tragedies is what leads conspiracy theorists to flood facebook with claims that events this are government hoaxes.
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| | | 23 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:41
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"i don't know where they got that from. We don't have anyone in custody" - BPD spokesperson on the report someone is in custody.
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| | | 24 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:43
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Also read they have surveillance of someone planting backpacks short time before the bombs went off. Hopefully enough video to identify who is responsible.
Whoever the mental defective or group that did this obviously whatever cause is associated does not support bombing people (short of terrorists). Crazy people are crazy.
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| | | 25 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:46
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In response to an AP report that all cell phone service was shut down to prevent remote detonations, cellular companies are saying they received no such order and that service disruptions were simply due to the overwhelming flood of localized activity.
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| | | 26 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 18:01
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Police chief also just said in a live presser that they don't have anyone in custody.
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| | | 28 | Khahan
ID: 16341313 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 19:23
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Heard on the news on the way home that the library was a mechanical fire and was unrelated.
Still that leaves 3 bombs (2 detonated 1 undetonated if reports are accurate) which makes me think an organization was behind it more than a person.
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| | | 29 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 19:38
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8-year-old boy among the two confirmed dead. wtf.
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| | | 30 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 09:18
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The number of people in for the marathon would probably be enough to crash the local cell phone systems. And that is with calls spread over time as various people finish, to have everyone try calling at once is simply tie up everything. You can similar results at large events, even with additional temporary service towers are brought in.
Even if there was a suspect in custody, don't forget that there was a suspect in custody immediately after the Atlanta Olympic bombings. He was eventually cleared and released.
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| | | 31 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 10:13
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I have 2 hopes for whoever the bomber is - a quick death pre-trial. He's not worth it.
Whatever cause he has (and this is even less likely than my first hope) gets no press time. Whenever we find out who he is , the press comes out and says, something along the lines of, "Boston Marathon bomber identified as ." Maybe a bit about him, where he's from. But that's it. Not word about what message he had or a manifesto if there was one etc.
Stop giving these psychos an outlet.
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| | | 32 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 10:19
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Stop giving these psychos an outlet.
Isn't this exactly the opposite of how you said we should deal with people who commit attacks on large numbers of people last week?
That campus attack was a few hours old when you were chastising the rest of us for failing to publicly psychoanalyze him.
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| | | 34 | Tree
ID: 14328169 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 10:28
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re 33: - i knew Erik Rush would be on that list. as soon as i saw his response, i was disgusted.
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| | | 35 | chode
ID: 212581213 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 10:54
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Oh, the irony.
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| | | 36 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 10:55
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Regardless of who was behind this, I'll agree with Khahan that I hope he ends up like Timothy McVeigh. Remember the tragedy, but don't shine a spot light on their cause of belief.
What % of Americans today would know why McVeigh bombed the Murrah building if asked today?
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| | | 37 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 11:20
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Isn't this exactly the opposite of how you said we should deal with people who commit attacks on large numbers of people last week?
That campus attack was a few hours old when you were chastising the rest of us for failing to publicly psychoanalyze him.
No, i wasn't chastising anybody for not psychoanalyzing the slasher. But there is also a difference between authorities gathering profiling information on these people and the media putting them up on the front page and glorifying what they did or the causes they did it for.
There is also a far cry difference between asking for information to be gathered on these people (perpetrators of acts of mass violence) and calling for the public to psycho-analyze them.
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| | | 38 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 11:25
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I do agree our society needs to take another look at how we publicize mass/serial killers. Why does the Biography channel need to run hour long specials on every serial killer and mass killer? Why give them the exposure and fame? Why give the next wave of mental defectives ideas and incentive? Why have fictional TV series glamorizing serial killers? (Dexter, The Following, etc...)
Very tragic event yesterday...but this is really the world we live in. We are fortunate in America that it does not happen more often as it does in other parts of the world. Hopefully they caught the perp on video and the person or persons responsible can be quickly identified and dealt with.
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| | | 39 | Tree
ID: 14328169 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 11:31
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Oh, the irony.
oh, the inability to to differentiate between calling for an entire group of people to be executed, and being disgusted with those who claim to be "pro-life" and then commit mass murder in the name of their cause.
Why does the Biography channel need to run hour long specials on every serial killer and mass killer? Why give them the exposure and fame? Why give the next wave of mental defectives ideas and incentive? Why have fictional TV series glamorizing serial killers? (Dexter, The Following, etc...)
welcome to the Constitution.
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| | | 40 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 11:46
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No, i wasn't chastising anybody for not psychoanalyzing the slasher.
1 week ago today, about 2 hours after news broke of a stabbing attack on a Texas college campus:
Were dealing with the same everything except the death of people as a mass shooting. Yet all anybody wants to do is talk about the lack of deaths.
Does nobody want to talk about person involved in the stabbing? What caused it? What led to it? What possible measures can be done to prevent it so next time there arent a few people killed?
And then today:
Whenever we find out who he is , the press comes out and says, something along the lines of, "Boston Marathon bomber identified as ." Maybe a bit about him, where he's from. But that's it.
You don't see a mixed message here? It's like you're prepared to criticize no matter how people react.
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| | | 41 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 11:46
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Tree...I did not say we should ban or prohibit anything...I understand and value the First Amendment and constitution. I just wonder "Why?" as a society we feel the need to glamorize this behavior and then why are we surprised when there are seemingly more and more who go down this path?
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| | | 42 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 11:57
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as a society we feel the need to glamorize this behavior and then why are we surprised when there are seemingly more and more who go down this path?
I'm not convinced that it necessarily works that way but I think the philosophical question is fully reasonable. But I also Tree's response is reasonable in that there's little that can be done.
People will be intrigued by what they find intriguing. How do you convince them to not watch Dexter because it might be bad for society? Or how do you convince Showtime to not air Dexter (or to clean it up) and forgo all the revenue that violence and gore deliver them?
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| | | 43 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 12:02
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MITH, I think you are really misinterpreting what I'm saying. And even after I state that, you are still insisting I'm saying exactly what I said I'm not.
What public response am I criticizing today? None because there hasn't been one. I'm just stating a hope that this guy isn't glorified, that his cause isn't given press. That he's not turned into a celebrity.
That is completely different from stating I hope we learn about what makes him tick to learn how to deal with the next psycho. Its one thing to learn from the past and be prepared for the future. Its another thing to turn these jerks into celebrities.
It seems like you are the one looking for something to criticize seeing as how you are the one who brought up this line of discussion and you are the one digging into other posts for information and you are the one misreading that information and you are the one still insisting you know what I'm saying even when I flat out stating I'm not saying that.
Just remember, this discussion between us started with you, not me. I made no criticism in this thread, you did. If you misunderstood 2 different messages, no problem. I don't mind clarifying.
For the record, to be completely clear -I think we should learn from these people -I don't think they should be given press -I don't think their causes should be given press -I don't see a conflict in the above statements.
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| | | 45 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 12:21
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Khahan
Recall that you were the guy who brought a story about a stabbing into our ongoing gun control discussion to complain about exactly where the focus of the discussion was.
Indeed, your initial post: I think we should start looking at these simply as mass violence and really starting looking at the perpetrators, not the tools they used. Thankfully nobody is dead (yet...4 in critical condition).
The conversation about these mass acts of violence really needs to focus on people.
You're saying now you meant this focus should be exclusively behind closed doors and away from public attention? What good would that do?
My response, which today proves quite prescient: The incident is hours old. I guarantee you the media will flesh out those very questions and then news media haters far and wide will respond by chastising the news media for "glorifying" the attacker.
Here's why I'm irked - from my perspective, last week you wanted the media - your words here - to talk about person involved in the stabbing.
This week you - your words again - don't think they should be given press.
The media takes a lot of crap for the way they cover these events. Some people will leap to criticize no matter how it is handled. You sure look like one of those people over the past week.
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| | | 46 | Tree
ID: 14328169 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 12:25
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I just wonder "Why?" as a society we feel the need to glamorize this behavior and then why are we surprised when there are seemingly more and more who go down this path?
yea. i don't buy this. we've had mass killers and serial killers for longer than we've had television. this fascination goes back at least 125 years, when Jack the Ripper became a sensation.
personally, i find serial killers fascinating, and for me, it probably began when my best friend was (likely) killed by one when i was a teenager. I wonder how a human being can be so devoid of emotion and empathy that killing is just something they do, like a machine.
Dexter is a fascinating show to me because it explores this very motif. How does someone who kills with no remorse and has no feelings live among those of us that do have feelings? how does that person marry, have children, blend in. it really is something i can't conceptualize, but i do appreciate a show like Dexter that explores the idea.
(i missed this earlier) We are fortunate in America that it does not happen more often as it does in other parts of the world.
absolutely. yesterday was awful. i have just a couple of degrees of separation from the 8-year-old boy who killed yesterday (along with his sister who suffered an amputation) and parents who suffered burns and head wounds, as a close college friend of mine is friends with the family.
but the fact that these things happen so rarely in our country is a testament to our strength. These things are going to happen - it is our world - and i don't know that there is any way to change it. but the fact it is minimal, is relatively comforting.
Or how do you convince Showtime to not air Dexter (or to clean it up) and forgo all the revenue that violence and gore deliver them?
just wondering if you watch Dexter. I find it to be one of the least goriest shows on TV, at least relative to subject matter. there are shows that are considerably more graphic with their blood letting. There is violence in murder, obviously, but i don't see that it's done in this program with an abundance of blood.
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| | | 47 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 12:32
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MITH, I can only explain it so many different ways. And you did exactly what I said you would - even after explaining the 2 different statements you spent a lengthy post trying to make it sound like I am saying something I specifically said I don't believe. So keep at it.
You seem to have an agenda with me for some reason. Keep at your agenda. But you are attempting to draw a false parallel between 2 statements I've made about 2 different approaches. Again, your attempt to twist my words into something they are not has failed. I am not claiming what you state I am claiming. But your mind is made up, so just be content in your knowledge that you believe I am wrong and ignore the source when it clarifies your fallacy.
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| | | 49 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 12:38
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I've never missed an episode of Dexter.
And if you think it's "one of the least goriest shows on TV" you either don't Dexter or don't watch much TV.
Every show includes at least one murder committed in spectacular fashion, either by Dexter or by his nemesis of the moment.
Body parts in freezers, the frequently recounted story of his "baptism", finding his wife in a bathtub filled with her own blood, just to name a few off the top of my head.
WTF are you talking about Tree?
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| | | 50 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 12:41
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ignore the source when it clarifies your fallacy.
You mean just accept your denial in spite of what you actually said. Sure, you got it.
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| | | 51 | Tree
ID: 14328169 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 12:48
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And if you think it's "one of the least goriest shows on TV" you either don't Dexter or don't watch much TV.
Every show includes at least one murder committed in spectacular fashion, either by Dexter or by his nemesis of the moment.
i guess we have different thoughts on gore.
gore is something i don't care to watch - such as the later Saw movies, the Hostel serious, and so forth. bloodletting does not equal gore to me. bodies being ripped apart, organs falling out, blood splattering and spraying, and so forth. i don't see those things in Dexter.
i find The Walking Dead to be much gorier than Dexter. (the scene with Dexter's wife that you mention excepted).
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| | | 52 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 13:21
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Khahan, were you trying to imply in the stabbing attack, that we should be focusing on mental illness. I don't believe that the stabber, had a cause, he was just unstable.
We are speculating that the bomber, on the other hand, had a cause that he was trying to further. Giving additional coverage to the the cause, is a step in the wrong direction.
I don't see a disconnect between those two points of view, but it assumes that the bomber had a cause that he wanted to bring attention to. If that isn't the case, he it was the actions of a someone with a mental problem, we should talk about it. It being mental illness and how we deal with it.
I also see distinctions between a show like Dexter and a documentary on serial killers. Son of Sam laws are still undeveloped, but are working their way through various courts. Would we as a society really be harmed, if Son of Sams laws were extended so that other entities, besides the perpetrators, couldn't profit from something like serial killers?
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| | | 53 | Boldwin
ID: 63491612 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 13:56
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Google Freaky Slaught just for fun, MITH.
Tree has named his fantasy teams Freaky Slaughts lately.
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| | | 54 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 14:00
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Who woulda thunk these media whores would miss this opportunity?
Westboro Baptists threaten to picket... you know the rest.
Khahan and Frick - Son of Sam laws could not quash the press's freedom to report. I dislike all this coverage, believe me, but I ignore it. Seems like there are plenty of people who want to know, that's on them.
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| | | 55 | GO
ID: 120252515 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 14:01
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I suspect thats most likely related to roller derby.
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| | | 56 | Boldwin
ID: 63491612 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 14:06
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I once read a book on the dilema the media faces covering this kind of thing and the danger presented by raising the profile of these perps.
My takeaway from the book; There is no easy clearcut direction the media indisputably must take. They face conundrums that get more complex the deeper you look at them.
They do need to blackout the name of the perp IMO. One of the few media blackouts I'll support. They need to know they will not be immortalized by the media. People will go to extremes to live forever in some fashion.
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| | | 57 | Boldwin
ID: 63491612 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 14:07
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GO
Or maybe Sargent Slaughter somehow. I think it's still telling and relevent to his comments on Dexter.
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| | | 58 | GO
ID: 120252515 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 14:15
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I do tend to agree. I find Dexter's violence to be surgical, calculating, cerbral for the most part... With exceptions though as MITH points out like the baby in the blood, and the victims of Trinity (I think?) in the tubs.
I see Walking Dead as more gratuitous style. Not that it doesn't have a conscious or rationale - it usually does... but they could probably show a little less and use some more discretion.
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| | | 59 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 14:18
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On murderers vs terrorists and mental imbalance vs a "cause":
I think Frick is onto something regarding the likely reason for the disconnect between Khahan and I. Khahan seems to make these assumptions that the slasher was just a crazy guy who's mental health issues should have been addressed or at least identified earlier, which we could explore in hope to prevent similar attacks. And he seems to assume that the the bomber(s) acted on a much more lucid sinister agenda which should be repressed from public knowledge.
These assumptions might eventually turn out to be correct but until we know more about each case (we don't even know who planted yesterday's bombs) they are just assumptions. If this was the source of the disconnect, it could have been avoided by simply not being presumptive.
I assume Freaky Slaught does not refer to former MLB catcher Don Slaught? I'm at work and something tells me I should definitely not google Freaky Slaught from here. Hopefully it's the roller derby thing.
I can understand and I think even respect a genuine curiosity about clinical psychosis, particularly if there is a personal connection to a victim of someone with that condition. But a "fascination with serial killers" is either really sick and something that I think any doctor would a person to immediately seek counselling for, or (more likely in this case I think) a banal, somewhat juvenile and dated cliche.
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| | | 60 | Tree
ID: 143231613 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 14:24
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What the frack are you talking about Baldwin??
GO nailed it. Half the team's name is my girlfriend's roller derby name (it, in turn, coming from a Red Hot Chili Peppers album), and the other half is the nickname of the team i support.
Your leap from that is borderline nuts, but thanks for the laugh.
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| | | 61 | Tree
ID: 143231613 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 14:26
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Fascination and obsession are different things MITH.
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| | | 62 | Tree
ID: 14328169 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 14:35
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58 was a good explanation of the difference in violence in those shows. obviously, there are exceptions, as MITH pointed out in Dexter.
for me, an exception in Walking Dead is the death of a character that happens off scene. Morgan's description of it, to me, was more riveting than if i had actually seen it happen.
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| | | 64 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 19:15
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Nice. A moment of silence, and flags at half staff, in Cleveland where the Red Sox are opening up a series against the Indians.
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| | | 65 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Apr 16, 2013, 20:23
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It is so moving that the Cleveland Indians have decided to let the Red Sox have their way with them tonight...
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| | | 67 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 15:31
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Yahoo front page simultaneously reporting a suspect has been arrested and that a suspect has been identified but no arrests made. The media is such a frenzy they don't know what to think.
Near as I can figure - they have a lead based on a picture. Nothing more, nothing less. They have SOMETHING to look into.
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| | | 68 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 16:09
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Credit NBC News for keeping calm, upholding their standards and staying above the fray today.
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| | | 69 | Boldwin
ID: 463291715 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 18:42
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I got a solution to terrorism. Keep a sharper eye on anywhere they are running a terrorism drill.
There is a terrorism drill being run every single time there is a terrorism attack.
Funny how the only time a congressman ever gets a ricin packet coincides with a recent terrorist attack, also.
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| | | 70 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 19:31
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1. A controlled explosion is not a terrorism drill.
2. That was a poorly worded tweet referring to a report that another explosive device had been found and would be detonated in a controlled explosion by the bomb squad. That report turned out to be false.
One of the most frustrating things about these hectic breaking news environments is that every time the media gets something wrong, the conspiro-theorists pounce on it as evidence of a coverup or inside job or, their latest buzzword, a false flag operation.
And then all the rubes who boast about how they're too smart to believe anything the mainstream media tells them fall hook, line and sinker for the conspiro-theorists, who report something accurately once for every 500 trillion facts the mainstream media outlets deliver.
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| | | 72 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 19:42
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This forum certainly is.
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| | | 73 | Tree
ID: 123221715 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 19:49
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following the trail to the orignal article.
(Alastair Stevenson) added, "I've run a lot of races like this one, but I never saw bomb dogs at the starting line of any running event. It led me to believe that something like (a bomb detonation) might have happened."
which eventually leads to this....
i guess running 10 marathons is a lot. none of them Boston. None of them NYC.
meh. even without that trail, i'm trying to figure out the point of 71. that because there were training exercises or what have you, it's a false flag attack?
baffling.
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| | | 74 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 19:56
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That blog doesn't say that anyone at an "announcer's booth" made that claim. They cite a runner named Alastair Stevenson. I don't doubt there were bomb-sniffing dogs at an event like the Boston Marathon. I walk past them all the time at places like Penn Station and Yankee Stadium all the time.
Further, he says they had the dogs out at the starting line - presumably that means at the start of the race, don't you think? How else would he know?
The Starting line was in the town of Hopkinton, 20-something miles southwest of the finish line on Boylston Street in downtown Boston.
But the Globe's tweet - about a controlled explosion (why would they need dogs for that?) a mile up Boylston from the finish line and was sent some time after the bombs went off - and at least some 5 hours after Stevenson would have been at the starting line.
Just a modicum of critical thinking and you too can be smarter than the shrewdest conspiro-theorist.
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| | | 75 | Boldwin
ID: 463291715 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 20:23
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“At the starting line this morning, they had bomb sniffing dogs and the bomb squad out there,” he said. “They kept announcing to runners not to be alarmed, that they were running a training exercise.” - Alastair Stevenson, runner in the race and head cross-country track coach at the University of Mobile.
Credible source telling you what they were saying at the starting line, and continuously thereafter.
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| | | 76 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 20:24
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1. How the hell do you know he's credible?
2. ...and continuously thereafter is the invention of someone who is not interested in the truth>
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| | | 77 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 20:25
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Come on, man, just a modicum. Prove you've got it in you. It must be in there someplace.
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| | | 78 | Boldwin
ID: 463291715 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 20:26
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It was just another official government 'training drill' as is universally true at every terrorist attack.
Wiggle all you want, it's an amazing fact.
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| | | 79 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 20:29
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You have a very low threshold for what you call "amazing", and "fact", for that matter...
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| | | 80 | Boldwin
ID: 463291715 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 20:41
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Avoid Vegas.
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| | | 81 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 20:44
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No wiggle necessary. You're just plain wrong. As often the case you're the only one who thinks otherwise.
superstar
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| | |
| | | 83 | Tree
ID: 123221715 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 20:50
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shockingly, there are training and prevention drills at large events that might draw terrorists.
honestly, i've never heard of something so amazing. good thing it came from our resident superstar, or i'd never believed it possible.
we better get Stephen Crowder or James O'Keefe to video tape this, to perserve the honesty and integrity of such an unusual event.
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| | | 84 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 553431023 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 22:58
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Could be they were aware of "chatter" indicating something was planned for Boston. There are almost constant threats on events like this...the hard part is judging how legitimate the threat. Whether people want to believe it or not there are real terrorists who are interested in nothing more than destroying Western society.
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| | | 85 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 23:30
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If there were dogs at the starting line it was just as likely our modern post-9/11 protocol at an internationally recognized event like the Boston Marathon. Like I said I see them all the time at regular season baseball games and even at the train station. Such is the new normal in major American cities.
Law enforcement said yesterday there were no specific threats which would have caused them to heighten security beyond how they would normally prepare for that event.
Of course there could be any number of understandable reasons for why they would say that even if it weren't true.
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| | | 86 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 09:09
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I agree that bomb sniffing dogs at events are very common, and I just assumed that they said "training" exercise to keep people from panicking. You don't normally see them because they bring them in before most people show-up.
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| | | 89 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 13:28
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No photos of rumored and unsubstantiated "suspects" until arrests are made.
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| | | 94 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 15:47
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But, but...
They're swarthy!!! They must be guilty.
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| | | 95 | Boldwin
ID: 163511813 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 15:53
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The authorities were either passing the picture around and looking for them or they weren't. No one said they were guilty. If they were passing the picture around, it's not a fake story. If they were passing it around, that would be a known as a fact.
If those more recent stories refute the original story that authorities were passing the pictures around, I didn't catch it in skimming thru most of them.
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| | | 97 | Boldwin
ID: 163511813 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 16:02
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BTW, what a relief to find out the kids with the backpack and duffel bag that weren't there in subsequent pictures were actual students. We're safe then.
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| | | 98 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 16:26
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Gawker As it has been all week, the New York Post was wrong. And as it has all week, the Post denied being wrong. This afternoon—after the Post had run a story conceding that the two were not suspects—Col Allan, the paper's editor, issued a statement defending the front page:We stand by our story. The image was emailed to law enforcement agencies yesterday afternoon seeking information about these men, as our story reported. We did not identify them as suspects. This is legalistic horseshit. In small type, the cover did say that "there is no direct evidence linking them to the crime, but authorities want to identify them." But it was the front page image in the newspaper. The whole point of putting them on the cover was to imply that these two—rather than the dozens of other backpack-bearing figures being scrutinized yesterday—were under serious suspicion.
A normal newspaper editor—someone who wanted a scoop yet was concerned about embarrassing the paper or harming an innocent person—would not have slapped that picture on Page One without some deep underlying confidence that the two were serious suspects, and that the absence of "direct evidence" was a temporary condition.
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| | | 99 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 17:29
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And the FBI just took a pretty clear shot at the NY Post as well.
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| | | 100 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 17:37
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Plus the title: "Bag Men." Clearly a play on both the bags and their guilt.
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| | | 101 | Boldwin
ID: 163511813 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 17:45
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Are you guys serious?????
The police put composite pictures up...all...the...time... of suspects they need help identifying. I think a muuuuuch bigger issue is why...didn't...they ask the public for help finding them for questioning?
Sounds like PC getting in the way of SOP police work to me.
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| | | 102 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 17:49
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You obviously didn't watch the press conference the FBI just had.
They said other photos make their job to catch the terrorists harder. Later in the Q&A they were asked about the photos the NY Post put on their front page and the agent made clear that that's what he was addressing.
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| | | 103 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 17:49
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So, yeah, serious.
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| | | 104 | Boldwin
ID: 163511813 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 18:08
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That makes no sense.
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| | | 105 | Tree
ID: 563131811 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 18:28
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That Baldwin is defending the NY Post is no surprise. murders, thieves, forgers, and so forth - he'll defend the worst of the worst.
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| | | 106 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 18:31
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FBI released video footage of persons of interest. Not the Post guys.
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| | | 107 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 18:33
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bili: We're talking about earlier, incorrect information the Post published and Baldwin re-posted here (since deleted).
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| | | 108 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 18:34
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Yeah, I know. Putting up wrong stuff is usually unhelpful to an investigation, and might get some innocent kids killed.
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| | | 109 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 153391817 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 18:39
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Supposedly one of the persons from the Post picture is a 17 year old track athlete who immediately contacted the FBI to clear his name. Supposedly he has already contacted lawyers to sue the NY Post for defamation.
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| | | 110 | Boldwin
ID: 163511813 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 18:44
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Until it is proved that no branch of law enforcement was floating that picture around to their members seeking identification, I am going to presume one law officer leaked it for that purpose with or without permission.
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| | | 111 | Mith
ID: 412561115 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 18:53
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And you feel that justifies an editorial decision to have it dominate the front page of the paper edition?
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| | | 113 | Boldwin
ID: 163511813 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 23:04
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MITH#111
I'm glad he was identified quickly.
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| | | 114 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 23:05
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his pic should not have been published..THAT is the whole point.
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| | | 115 | Boldwin
ID: 163511813 Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 23:11
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Anyone at that event carrying a large bag in early pictures and not in later pictures needs to be identified immediately. I'm perfectly comfortable with that, and so should anyone be who fits that description.
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| | | 116 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 00:08
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Absolutely fine for law enforcement to pursue and question all possible suspects. Absolutely fine for law enforcement to officially release pictures to the press/public for help identifying suspects. Not fine for the NY Post to publish non official seemingly guesses at possible suspects. NY Post is trash and should be sued...it is wholly irresponsible journalism.
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| | | 117 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 02:17
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I completely agree, CTRS.
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| | | 118 | Boldwin
ID: 0354194 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 05:54
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Days late. I'm guessing it took them half a week to assure their minds the subjects weren't swarthy, then they release the photos.
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| | | 119 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 06:11
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most people hold themselves to a higher standard than you hold yourself Baldwin.
releasing photos of the wrong people would have been detrimental. releasing photos of the correct people, AS WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW, made a difference.
if you're not following what's going on in Boston, Watertown, and the near western suburbs of Boston, then you're already behind.
But it is almost astonishing to see Baldwin's repeatedly disgusting double standards.
on one hand, he admonishes a government that he thinks wants to enslave its citizens, and on the other hand, he wants everyone to be presumed guilty based on the color of their skin.
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| | | 121 | Boldwin
ID: 0354194 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 07:22
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Finding reasonable suspects is not presuming guilt. It's just good preliminary police work. The kind you want to hobble with your PC tenacles. More important to protect feelings than to solve the crime. Ridiculous.
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| | | 122 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 07:26
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Chechens? What do Chechens have against us? I could see Moscow, but Boston? I plead ignorance.
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| | | 123 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:04
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The islamist project is worldwide in scope. How could you think otherwise?
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| | | 124 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:07
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In light of the well established means employed by other NewsCorp publications to obtain information, I find the following preposterous:
I am going to presume one law officer leaked it for that purpose
As if the NY Post - of all publications - has earned that benefit of doubt.
No one could possibly be more consistently backward in their assessments of media sources.
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| | | 125 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 416222423 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:09
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Wow...busy overnight. One down...hopefully they can take the other alive.
Chechen Terrorism history
Very active bombers...not sure what their beef is against the US. They have been linked to al-Queda in the past. Their past bombings have been mostly against Russian targets. The 2004 school hostage killings was their most infamous attack.
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| | |
| | | 127 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:13
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Which doesn't square with the name in this account so it's still confusing.
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| | | 128 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:18
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Turn off the holodeck, dude.
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| | | 129 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:21
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not sure what their beef is against the US
How did we get this far without understanding what islamists have been telling you for a century, and remarkably up front and in your face for the last 15 years.
Who do they call the great satan? How much clearer do they have to make it?
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| | |
| | | 131 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:30
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Best info so far - Reason, a very well financed m agazine/website/blog.
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| | | 132 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:31
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Well not really a surprise it was muslim terrorists. Yeah they are still a real threat.
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| | | 133 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:31
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Just stay out of wacko-blog-land and pick up a paper, and you'll be fine.
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| | | 134 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:32
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Timeline
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| | |
| | | 137 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:43
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Most amazing live feed ever...beats the OJ chase.
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| | | 138 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 08:59
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hopefully Dzhokhar isn't streaming it on his phone...
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| | |
| | | 140 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 09:09
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They just played the audio of the gunfight last night.
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| | | 141 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 09:12
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The father - AP by phone to Russia
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| | | 142 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 09:17
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Live Interview with another uncle...he had been called by the killed suspect yesterday, sorta apologizing for family estrangement and promising better relations in the future. This uncle is having a bit more trouble believing it's all true.
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| | | 143 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 09:26
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Mother Jones reports in with the social media pages of the dead suspect.
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| | | 144 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 09:34
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At the time the photos were taken, Tamerlan's life did not seem all bad: Hirn writes that he was competing as a boxer, enrolled in Bunker Hill Community College, and pursuing a career as an engineer, and had a half-Portuguese, half-Italian girlfriend who converted to Islam for him. "She's beautiful, man!" he said.
At some point, though, it all went wrong. In 2009, Tamerlan was arrested for domestic assault and battery after assaulting his girlfriend. The reasons for his descent into terrorism after that will no doubt be clear soon. - Foreign Policy
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| | | 145 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 09:38
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The live suspect was very popular in school, seemed good natured, was the class clown.
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| | | 148 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 10:02
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the older brother was a two-time golden gloves champion.
the younger one is currently enrolled at my alma mater, UMASS Dartmouth. that weirds me out.
reports of the younger brother from his friends paint him as normal and americanized and just a normal guy. this is baffling. he grew up in this country.
(post 127 was ridiculous btw. just absurd.)
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| | | 151 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 10:32
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oh by the way a town blow up in Texas, nevermind we are too busy make celebrities of terrorist...I guess mission accomplished for them.
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| | | 152 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 10:39
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It will be an interesting story what specifically triggered their change in behavior. The one's arrest for domestic battery seems pretty obvious. It will be interesting to find out if possible the dynamic between the two brothers. Were they both equal or was one a follower.
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| | | 160 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 10:48
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oh by the way a town blow up in Texas, nevermind we are too busy make celebrities of terrorist...I guess mission accomplished for them.
well, one was terrorism, and the other one was government malfeasance.
and i don't believe this is an issue of making celebrities. this is an issue of public safety, and "catching the bad guys".
but i'll start a thread on West, since it's a town near and dear to me.
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| | | 169 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:26
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Somewhere around the time you kill a campus cop, throw a pressure cooker loaded with explosives out the car at chasing police, open up with firearms, and are shot by police and your own pressure cooker...
...you stop being just a suspect.
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| | | 170 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:27
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Lots of tree trimming today. Some branches were pretty benign but would have seemed so out of place w/out the post they were referencing, so there was some collateral damage. Lets get this back on track.
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| | | 171 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:31
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Somewhere around the time you kill a campus cop, throw a pressure cooker loaded with explosives out the car at chasing police, open up with firearms, and are shot by police and your own pressure cooker...
...you stop being just a suspect.
This is true and it does bother me to no end when media refers to known criminals as 'alleged.' But at the same time, until they've had their day in court and have been tried and convicted in accordance w/ our Constitution technically they are not yet known to be.
It seems assinine to refer to James Holmes as the 'alleged' shooter in Denver. But when you really think about how our laws and our constitution is structured, its a technicality and formality that SHOULD be followed.
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| | | 172 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:32
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Watch the video Tamerlan Tsarnaev posted or you will never understand the Boston Marathon bombing.
You know you are too far to the left when you censor Mother Jones.
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| | | 173 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:39
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It isn't the video Baldwin/Boldwin (what's up with chaning your name back?). It is your comments that anyone who believes in Allah shares those views. Sadly, I think that you agree more the more radical you go with Christian beliefs, (e.g. Scott Roeder).
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| | | 174 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:41
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from Ruslan Tsarni, the uncle of the bombing suspects, to them.
"You put a shame on your religion. You put a shame on all Chechens, our family, our entire ethnicity. Seek forgiveness from the dead, the injured, God. Turn yourselves in."
watching the emotion on this man who was otherwise just living his life as a normal American until last night, is difficult.
---
on a semi-related note, i'm glad watching a singular video is all it takes to understand the boston marathon bombing. thank God for superstars.
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| | | 175 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:44
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It is your comments that anyone who believes in Allah shares those views.
I have never said anything like that. Not even close.
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| | | 176 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:46
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The indictment was of anyone who takes Islam seriously.
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| | | 177 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:48
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Thank God for the word and the reality of nominal only when it comes to islam.
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| | | 178 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:50
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And pray 'Arab Spring' doesn't change that.
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| | | 179 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:52
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Ban him.
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| | | 180 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:53
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Ok, I understand these guys had some radical Islamist ideas. They were into propaganda and had major issues with anybody who disagreed with them. But this just doesn't strike me as your typical 'terrorist attack.'
If this were a terrorist attack - and I say that thinking of somebody who did the attack specifically to further a cause, prove a point, make a statement and advance a cause at the expense of terrorizing victims - I would expect the perpetrators to a) lay low and take off to a location where they can't be gotten and b) take credit
Instead these guys stick around the area. Rob stores, ambush cops, steal cars. They do a lot of high profile things staying in the area. Those high profile acts stand out as ones that will get them caught w/out any particular cause or agenda. It seems more like a sadistic crime spree.
Just initial impressions.
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| | | 181 | GO
ID: 120252515 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 11:57
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Agree. Like pointing out Timothy McVeigh was a registered Republican and Roman Catholic. Doesn't really have to much with why he did what he did.
Unless there is some religious manifesto or letter we don't have from these guys yet and will be later uncovered. Their religion seems immaterial so far.
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| | | 182 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:01
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Wow, what a moving pro-American statement from that uncle just now. That was brave, genuine...I'm really touched.
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| | | 183 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:02
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Unless there is some religious manifesto
Your take on that video he posted, please? That doesn't count as a manifesto?
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| | | 184 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:10
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I was listening to that, too, Baldwin. Its obvious he does NOT share his nephew's beliefs.
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| | | 185 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:26
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I do not think these guys started terrorizing again until the FBI released their photos and they knew it was not long before they were apprehended.
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| | | 186 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:26
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Their treatment of the guy whose car they hijacked is interesting.
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| | | 187 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:27
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Re 181: I think they are going to frame these guys as Islamic extremists, but I think in the end they have more in common with the batman movie theatre shooter. One wanted to be the Joker, won wanted to be Bin laden, both looking for something society had failed to give them.
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| | | 188 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:29
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Khahan
Very definite divide between the planned terrorism and 'the getaway'. From what they said to the one uncle about family relationships, it would seem they thot they were getting away with it at the time.
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| | | 189 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:31
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boikin
You can't discount the video.
You can't rule out a touch of 'Columbine disgruntled youth' either.
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| | | 190 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:34
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Wow, anybody listening to the washington post news feed? I don't know the names of the reporters talking but the woman was talking about how Dzhokhar had just become an American citizen on sept 11. How he had come seeking asylum and got a visa and gained citizenship. The guy reporting, his response was priceless, "Well, damn him anyway."
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| | | 191 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:37
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The guy in the boxing set of photos captioned, 'Will box for visa' had just been given full American citizenship last Sept 11.
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| | | 192 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:42
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In the photoset says he was hoping to be given a visa and was hoping his offering to box as an American would help in the quest for a visa. He claimed his motivation there was because he hated Russia so much.
The photoset is now access denied, unfortunately.
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| | | 193 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 12:51
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I like this reporter on the washington post feed, "These 2 thugs murdered 2 police officers. They set off bombs..." He's pissed and holding back no punches.
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| | | 194 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 13:13
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I also somewhat discount what some reporters have mentioned that there's the potential of al qaeda 'sleeper cells' going off here. Something that security services have mentioned as likely before this happened.
I don't get that sense, these guys did a heck of a job blending in if so. What I will say tho, is if you were picking guys for such a mission, you just might pick one guy who was such a fighter that he was in the discussion for Olympic boxer and another who was captain of his wrestling team. That's kinda coincidental.
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| | | 195 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 13:17
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"The younger Tsarnaev had link on website saying 'Send a gift' with a picture of a bomb, with a link to Islam website" - @jihadwatchRS
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| | | 196 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 13:21
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Going door to door.
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| | | 197 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 13:33
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WSJ bringing it.
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| | | 198 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 13:41
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You should sit where I'm sitting today.
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| | | 199 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 14:00
|
Tell us about it.
Tamerlan spent 6 months abroad last year. [embarked at Moscow, but that's prolly one stop on the normal route to Chechnya IMO] After the arrest for domestic battery if memory serves.
Training time?
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| | |
| | | 201 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 14:19
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With snarky post after the bombing.
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| | | 202 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 14:22
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Salon.com thinks it has the dead suspect's twitter account and shows tweets.
that's the suspect that isn't dead.
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| | | 203 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 14:25
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With snarky post after the bombing.
don't know which one you're referring to, but the Tweet about the fake story was right on. it WAS a fake story.
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| | | 204 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 14:27
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If you have the knowledge and the inspiration all that's left is to take action - Jahar Apr. 7
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| | | 205 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 14:28
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https://twitter.com/J_tsar
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| | | 206 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 14:34
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One of his friends and ABC news confirm that is his twitter account.
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| | | 207 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 14:51
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His tweets show he was a big Obama supporter. In November.
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| | | 208 | Baldwin
ID: 36358196 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 15:06
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Red Sox game postponed.
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| | | 209 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 16:12
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Kind of unreal that the police got in a shootout with these guys, killed one, and one was seemingly able to slip away. Fully expect he will be apprehended or killed shortly but amazing he has been able to evade for this long.
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| | | 210 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 16:46
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I have a hard time believing he's still in the area. I'd be hundreds of miles away by now, whether by car, train, plane. If by foot then maybe not hundreds of miles, but point is I'd be nowhere near there anymore.
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| | | 211 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 19:35
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there has been gun fire, and reports are they are now engaging a possible suspect.
additionally, it appears the older brother had been investigated by the FBI previously.
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| | | 212 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 19:57
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"An FBI official has confirmed that the bureau interviewed Tamerlan Tsarnaev, one of two suspected Boston Marathon bombers, in 2011 at the request of a foreign government that suspected he had ties to a terrorist organization."
Seems much more likely he was tied back to foreign interests and this is not a couple of isolated extremists. The older brother was likely a trained soldier...spending 6 months out of the country. Hope they can capture the younger brother alive.
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| | | 213 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 20:45
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police scanner is saying suspect in custody...
cnn is reporting that a police car sped past as fellow police applauded.
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| | | 214 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 21:02
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State official tells Boston Globe that bombing suspect was 'alive, conscious, captured' - @BostonDotCom http://bit.ly/17yh15m
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| | | 215 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 21:03
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Via CBS: Homeowner spotted tear in cover of boat, looked inside, saw blood, called police, police went into boat, got shot at, retreated.
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| | | 216 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 21:12
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| | | 217 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 21:18
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Blogger with a surprising amount of personal knowledge of the family. Regular facials from the mother in her house, discussions detailed.According to her description, the family gradually became more devout practitioners of Islam over time:
She told me that she and her husband had been lawyers and political activists in Russia. They had fled the country after “something that her husband did.” Her daughter had recently been divorced at this time, and her daughter’s ex-husband had taken their child to Russia, refusing to return him. Finally the child was returned. When my mom asked Zubeidat how they had gotten the child back, she told her that “her [Zubeidat’s] husband was crazy” and everyone knew it. When he threatened the daughter’s ex-husband’s family, they returned the child. --- When I read online that she had left for Russia a few months ago, my first reaction was to think that she might have known about the attacks her sons were planning. Articles online suggest that she is in Russia because of her husband’s poor health. I know that her husband often went to Russia without her, and for extended periods of time. She was also very close with her sons and showed many signs of strong political leanings herself. I have since heard that three people have been arrested at 410 Norfolk Street, and a bomb found there.
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| | | 218 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 21:22
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Dropped duffel bags at an event are a big deal.
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| | | 219 | Nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 21:31
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So Baldwin you seem convinced with the official story? Is that because they fit a profile you are happy with?
If they were middle aged Christian white males who were against gun control would you be just as convinced?
Every person I heard interviewed about the 19 year old that knew him well said he was not religious, not Muslim, drank alcohol, great kid, kind, gentle, could not have done it.
but if that disrupts your racial profile, then go back to your regularly scheduled program.
By all accounts the younger suspect was in no way, shape or form a "Muslim". Every person I heard interviewed on CNN who was a good friend said he was not religious.
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| | | 220 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 21:34
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~The two happiest days of a boat owner’s life is the day he buys a boat and the day he gets the terrorist out of it. - Steve Levitan
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| | | 221 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 21:37
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Nerve
I'll have to look closer at his social media postings to answer that. From what I remember of them, he wasn't far behind his brother in the Wahabi dept.
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| | | 222 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 21:38
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Nerve
Notice I'm not going by official accounts at all. I am looking at their own words and taking them at their word.
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| | | 223 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 21:58
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ZeroHedge twittering Tsarnaev was located using heat-sensing infrared equipment from a helicopter which would contradict the 'vigilant homeowner noticing the boat cover' story.
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| | | 224 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:01
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223 - why can't both be true?
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| | | 225 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:06
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Nerve
I'm also going by the interaction they had with police. You can stick with the innocent until proven guilty and the 'alleged' label all you want. You can be as paranoid or as skeptical of the official version of events as you want. More power to you and bless the presumption of innocence...fine for the legal system.
...but when you are bleeding from a shootout with police...which featured shrapnel from a pressure cooker. I'm not personally turning off my brain and suspending belief for the duration of the trial.
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| | | 226 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:07
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biba
Fair point.
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| | | 227 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:08
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I guess my point was they can't both be the initial clue where he was hiding.
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| | | 228 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:23
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http://www.mediaite.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/IMG_9311.jpeg
Takedown
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| | | 229 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:28
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Tweet claims to be providing a picture and article showing suspect posing with terrorist#1 liscense plate. Page won't load.
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| | | 230 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:32
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Provided without comment.
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| | | 231 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:40
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This week an Elvis impersonator sent ricin to Congressman Wicker's (R-Mississippi) office, and that's like the tenth story under the fold.
That's the definition of a bad week.
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| | | 232 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:44
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This week an Elvis impersonator sent ricin to Congressman Wicker's (R-Mississippi) office, and that's like the tenth story under the fold.
That's the definition of a bad week.
he also sent ricin to President Obama. either you missed that, or that's not important to you.
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| | | 234 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:57
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What you don't want to see out your bedroom window.
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| | | 235 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 22:59
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Yeah, I did miss that. Blocking I guess.
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| | | 236 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 23:03
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I'm curious. How did that not make huge headline news?
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| | | 237 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 23:09
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Red Sox game tomorrow should be a must watch.
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| | | 238 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 23:26
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How did that not make huge headline news?
it was, albeit briefly.
Monday - Marathon Bombing Tuesday night into Wednesday - Ricin Letters Wednesday - Explosion in West Thursday - Bombing suspects ID'd Friday - Manhunt for Bombing suspects
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| | | 239 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 23:59
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Lindsey Graham: Deny bombing suspect due process, right to counsel, right to silence. But don't you DARE take away his right to buy a gun!
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| | | 240 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 00:12
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I think we should tie up our finite law enforcement and FBI resources enforcing meaningless new regulations that only affect law abiding people.
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| | | 241 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 00:17
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I'd prefer if most of these serial killers never had their name popularized. - Jonah Goldberg
Good thing they were born in a land with no vowels. - Matthew Vadum
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| | | 242 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 00:17
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we already know that meme about "law abiding people" simply isn't true.
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| | | 243 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 00:23
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1,200,000 gun purchases were stopped via existing background check laws. How many more would be stopped, if we closed TWO loopholes? Internet and private gun sales?
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| | | 244 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 00:24
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I think we should tie up our finite law enforcement and FBI resources enforcing meaningless new regulations that only affect law abiding people.
Then justify Voter ID Laws, drug testing for welfare recipients, and any of a myriad of other rightwing initiatives of the pasts 12 years.
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| | | 245 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 00:27
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As the legend goes, when the Turkish sultan first heard of Ubykh, the bizarre-sounding language spoken by Muslims who had emigrated from the northwestern Caucasus in the mid-19th century, he dispatched a servant to learn more.
When the servant returned, he described what a language with 83 consonants and one vowel sounded like by taking out a bag of pebbles and pouring them on the sultan's marble floor. ''Listen to these sounds,'' he said. ''Foreigners can gain no greater understanding of Ubykh speech.'' - NYT
Caucasian languages use consonants formed at almost every conceivable point in the mouth and throat.
Just about as interesting and unique as African tongue clicking languages.
I wonder why that happened?
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| | | 246 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 01:48
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I can't sleep knowing that there are 1000s of unregistered pressure cookers in the US - Matt Hickam
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| | | 248 | Boldwin
ID: 47321920 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 02:37
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Major info at Mother Jones again.FBI was scared of my eldest son. They always told me that he is a leader. He talks about Islam a lot. They were talking to my son. They called me officially and they told me that my son is an excellent boy and they have no problem with him. At the same time, they were telling that he is getting information in really extreme... sites, so they were very, very afraid of him.
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| | |
| | | 250 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 05:44
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So now how should the bombing suspect be treated? He of course has the right to legal representation. Should he be interrogated prior to a lawyer being provided? Should he be subject to harsh interrogation techniques? How harsh? (With the purpose of gaining intelligence, or just punishing him for what he has done)?
If given legal representation, he probably would begin to bargain for what information he may possess re others being at least indirectly involved, possible future plots, their training, etc. So much to learn.
Is he deserving of the same rights everyone else has?
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| | | 251 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 08:25
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He is a US citizen, so...yes. If we pick and choose who amongst us gets to benefit from "rights", they are no longer rights but rather, privileges.
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| | | 252 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 08:44
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You would have to decide if his participation in a worldwide jihad with America as one of it's stated military targets qualifies him as a combatant in an enemy force. I don't see how it doesn't.
In principle and general practice Obama has already claimed the right to kill him with a drone, no matter his citizenship.
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| | | 253 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 08:46
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No you do not have to decide any such thing. YOU, are presuming he is involved in some world wide conspiracy plot and in the doing, are willing to toss aside the very document you wrecklessly wave about while screaming "right to bear arms".
ALL persons within our borders, are susbject to ur laws. Our laws, are based upon the constitution. He is entitled, to full legal representation and due process under our legal system. NON DEBATABLE.
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| | | 254 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 08:48
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You would also have to weigh the risk that the 'every culture and mindset is equally valid, except our own which is the worst' crowd manages to convince people that this is just a police matter. In which case you just got him off scot-free by not reading him his Miranda.
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| | | 255 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 08:52
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Time - Five months ago he appears to have created a channel on YouTube called “Terrorists.” The channel features videos from the one of the leaders of the insurgency in Dagestan who goes by the name Amir Abu Dudzhan. YouTube appears to have removed two of the videos but in a third features Dudzhan calling for jihad. Holding a Kalashnikov rifle, he says, “Jihad is the duty of every able-bodied Muslim.” Among the other videos on his channel is one of Timur Mutsuraev, the bard of the Chechen resistance in the 1990s; it features his song, “We will devote our lives to jihad.” --- One of his acquaintances recalled a conversation Tsarnaev had with a classmate during which Tsarnaev allegedly said, “in relation to acts of terrorism, he said it was not a serious issue if you come from a place where I come from,” the acquaintance, Eric Machado, told CNN. “Those comments raised a red flag in my head.”
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| | | 256 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 08:52
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and you were there to know he wasnt read his rights? Again, you PRESUME to know, far more than you do.
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| | | 257 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 08:56
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I'm speaking about this type of situation in general and the principles involved.
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| | | 258 | Tree
ID: 40328723 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 08:58
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You would have to decide if his participation in a worldwide jihad with America as one of it's stated military targets qualifies him as a combatant in an enemy force. I don't see how it doesn't.
did we try Eric Rudolph as a "enemy combatant"?
he targeted America because of his religious beliefs, as part of a combatant in an enemy force.
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| | | 259 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 09:01
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In principle and general practice Obama has already claimed the right to kill him with a drone, no matter his citizenship. - Myself
Which is understating it. He's also set the precedent of labeling people who have more than a week's worth of food stored up suspected terrorists who can be held in indefinite detention without constitutional protections.
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| | | 260 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 09:10
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So predictable. Tree would find a way to use Boston to ask 'Can we start rounding up the christians yet'? Lol
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| | | 261 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 09:16
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This bombshell appears to be confirmed by the mother.
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| | | 262 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 10:14
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I don't get it. Why is this news such a bombshell?
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| | | 263 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 10:20
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So Boldwin seems to be in favor of harsh interrogation in this case.
Anyone else have this view?
Boldwin - what about the use of torture for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev?
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| | | 264 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 10:33
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biba
Why does everyone leap to unsupported conclusions? I haven't discussed anything regarding interrogation except miranda rights.
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| | | 267 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 11:06
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I don't get it. Why is this news such a bombshell? - biba
One of the biggest issues is what would trigger a muslim with strong jihadist sympathies, but who has seemingly managed to fit in...
...what trigger throws him over into the active terrorism phase of his life.
We've read about his domestic abuse charges and separation. Now we find out he's married and separated.
We've heard of the black widow phenomenon.
Dramatic family problems are always a potential spark.
There are reasons people decide to go for the 72 virgins immediately, more specific than their general religious zealotry.
So yeah, that he's married is a big reveal.
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| | | 268 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 11:14
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Jihad does not mean terrorism.
So an advertisement that implores the reader to "support" the "civilized man" over "the savage" followed by "support Israel" and "defeat jihad". Is a certain kind of ugly to anyone who knows that "jihad" does mean the same thing as a commitment to violence or terrorism.
So when the blogger says; In referring to this ad the mainstream media leaps to the illogical conclusion that the ad equates all Muslims as savages.
He has either fallen the popular misconception fostered by the bigoted anti-muslim right that jihad means terrorism or he is trying to further it.
Further, that is a Pam Geller-associated advertisement.
So for anyone who knows anything about Geller, the claim is exactly the same thing as parsing a KKK-sponsored advertisement about supporting "the civilized man over "the savage" for what it doesn't say to prove that it is illogical conclusion that the ad equates all black people as savages.
Moreover, it's awfully strange to hear someone who just yesterday explained that any muslim who takes their religion seriously is committed to taking up arms against the non-muslim world ask today how we separate the jihadists from the law-abiding muslims.
Lets not parse language in attempt to hide your bigotry. It doesn't fool anyone. According to everything you've said on the topic, in your eyes a nonviolent muslim is a phony muslim - the only kind you can like.
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| | | 269 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 11:21
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Post 177 again:
Thank God for the word and the reality of nominal only when it comes to islam.
-superstar bigot
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| | | 270 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 11:27
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in your eyes a nonviolent muslim is a phony muslim - the only kind you can like.
Exactly. Probably time to start a Baldwin-free thread on this top so we can concentrate more on the facts of the case as it develops than the Right's fever dream on Muslims.
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| | | 271 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 12:23
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MITH
You can only say these things by remaining ignorant of the facts.
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| | | 272 | Tree
ID: 473372011 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 12:37
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So predictable. Tree would find a way to use Boston to ask 'Can we start rounding up the christians yet'? Lol
what an idiotic and ill-informed statement. i said no such thing, and i believe no such thing. never have, never will.
my point was merely that a radicalized Christian is no different than a radicalized Jew or a radicalized Muslim, or what have you.
i was merely comparing the two, because they are very similar situations.
YOU see them as being different. they're not. and your post comes across as if you're condoning Eric Rudolph's actions.
so. instead of accusing me of something that is another lie, why don't you step up to the plate and tell me why the situations are different?
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| | | 273 | DWetzel
ID: 59149910 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 13:03
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"Exactly. Probably time to start a Baldwin-free thread on this top so we can concentrate more on the facts of the case as it develops than the Right's fever dream on Muslims."
Message me when you do. I've largely stopped participating otherwise (because it's not worth it). Also laid off Market Madness and golf in case I decided to make an entirely clean break of it. Not quite there yet.
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| | | 274 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 13:03
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Tree
We've already had that debate elsewhere. No one wants to see us rehash it here. In fact they don't want to see us interact at all. Start that thread with your same old christian bashing meme if you want to, but I doubt censors will allow it and no one is interested.
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| | | 275 | Tree
ID: 473372011 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 13:42
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there's no Christian bashing there. NONE. if your own hate and ignorance don't allow you to see that, so be it.
i am biting my tongue on what i really want to say to you and your disgusting comments towards me. i'll just tell you to not turn your self-loathing on someone else.
the fact that you believe a Christian terrorist and a Muslim terrorist somehow have different levels of acceptance in their terror, speaks volumes.
i don't have any measure of hate for Christians in body. not one iota. i don't dislike someone because of their beliefs, i dislike them based on the kind of person they are.
it was my Christian friends who were the ones who helped me open my eyes to be accepting and tolerant of ALL people.
in fact, when my friend David Sacks (a fairly well-known photographer who's work most people here have seen, even if they don't know it) passed away last weekend, this is what i said about him, and it was shared quite a bit among his larger circle.
just found out i lost an old friend to cancer over the weekend. I hadn't really spoken much to David Sacks over the last 10 years or so, but once in a while we'd chat online, especially after he shot some amazing roller derby portraits. I remember when i discovered that one of his photos was the cover photo on an "Oprah book", and being especially proud for him.
During my early years in New York City, I spent a lot of time with David, hanging out in his loft, helping promote the band in which he played, and just having fun.
On a personal level, David's impact was somewhat profound - he was among the first group of people (you all know who you are) that tempered my opinions of Christians. That not all Christians were the zealots i grew up with in Texas, who preached to me constantly, told me I was going to hell for my religious beliefs, asked me if i had horns, told me my people killed Jesus, and so forth.
David and the others were tolerant, loving, and all-encompassing. They had their beliefs, but they were deeply personal, and there wasn't a need to force them on someone else, either through preaching or politics. Christ was something they felt in their heart, mind, and soul. I thank David and the rest of you for opening my eyes, because your tolerance for all helped me find *my* tolerance for all.
RIP David Sacks. I know you are in a good place now, the place you so deeply believed you would go one day.
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| | | 276 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 13:46
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DW, done.
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| | | 277 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 14:05
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Cool. Not ideal in my opinion but its a start. This will be my last post in this thread. In fact this will be the last time I open it.
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| | | 278 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 14:06
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Then justify Voter ID Laws, drug testing for welfare recipients, and any of a myriad of other rightwing initiatives of the pasts 12 years.
Which that you mention are the primary responsibility of the FBI and ATF?
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| | | 279 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 14:20
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He should be held as an enemy combatant. It was was released that he was not read Miranda rights. US citizen rights are revoked if a person is influenced by a foreign enemy. There is legal precedent.
The circumstantial details: brother out of the country for an extended time in 2012, prior FBI contact because of suspected ties to terrorist organizations, sophistication of attack/bombs, suicide vests, seeming assimilation into US society. These guys were real threats and we should do everything to retrieve the information this terrorist can provide. Seems likely the older brother had more information but it would be foolish not to extract what we can from this guy. I am not saying physical torture...but there is a good chance that he can be made to talk. Government seems undecided at this point.
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| | | 280 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 14:22
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Baldwin You can stick with the innocent until proven guilty and the alleged label all you want. You can be as paranoid or as skeptical of the official version of events as you want. More power to you and bless the presumption of innocence...
I have no idea what happened. I assume that all is as it seems and these two are guilty Baldwin. I just find it amusing that you are always worried about the great conspiracy, don't trust the government, see spooks behind every corner, but in this case, I am suggesting, since they are Muslim's (Your arch enemy) you are perfectly happy to jump on the guilty band wagon without any suspicion there could be more to the story.
I doubt you would believe the official story line so completely if it was a Christian, middle aged white man. Just a hunch.
I just find it entertaining... your conspiracies go out the window when a suspect fits your enemies description.
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| | | 281 | Tree
ID: 473372011 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 14:31
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He should be held as an enemy combatant. It was was released that he was not read Miranda rights. US citizen rights are revoked if a person is influenced by a foreign enemy.
so, Eric Rudolph should have been held as an enemy combatant?
per the FBI, Rudolph "had a long association with the radical Christian Identity movement, which asserts that Northern European whites are the direct descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, God's chosen people."
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| | | 282 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 14:48
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If Eric Rudolph was thought to have been directly influenced and had ties back to foreign terrorist organizations...than sure he should have been held as an enemy combatant. No problem there.
These two were very likely foreign trained/planned terrorists. This is a real enemy that likely has additional resources in our country. This is a real threat...not some lone mad men. If he has valuable data that can be used to save future American life it should be extracted. I find it absolutely pathetic that people have the mind set to jump to defend the rights of a terrorist?
Interestingly the government has not released their plan for holding him. If the Obama government classifies him as an enemy combatant tomorrow some how I think everyone here will say it is the right move (including me...my mind won't change based on political affiliation)...make your declaration now so we know where you stand.
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| | | 283 | Tree
ID: 473372011 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 14:52
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These two were very likely foreign trained/planned terrorists
you're very likely wrong.
the older brother? maybe.
the younger brother? not very likely.
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| | | 284 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 14:52
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They can't make the declaration until they know whether he is or not. And they don't have to make that declaration at all, at this point.
Remember: This is a government which has held people it knows to be innocent for over ten years at Gitmo, with no plans to either charge or release them.
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| | | 285 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 14:56
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Perm...to hold him like that they need to declare him an enemy combatant. Legally they have 48 hours to either charge him or declare him a combatant and then they can hold indefinitely without charges.
Tree...it seems likely the older brother was trained directly by terrorist organizations. He then trained younger brother...making them both terrorists.
So where do you guys stand? Should he be allowed to lawyer up and not talk or do we hold him as an enemy combatant?
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| | | 286 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 15:02
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They can hold him under charges without declaring him an enemy combatant. He doesn't have to be declared a combatant within 48 hours--only that he has to be charged.
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| | |
| | | 288 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 15:09
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Sure they can hold him forever once they charge him but then he has the right to lawyer up and shut up. They have 48 hours to bring charges or declare him a combatant...once charged he is allowed all of his Miranda rights which allows him the right to remain silent and not be questioned.
So again....should they press charges or hold him as an enemy combatant?
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| | | 289 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 15:25
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Nerve
1) I am interested in how closely the authorities were watching the two. Hard to believe it wasn't a lot. The mother says so and I believe her on that point.
2) This raises the question of whether this was allowed to proceed.
3) I've run thru in my mind what they would have had to do to make this appear as it does, if they were actually innocent patsies. If there are actual pressure cooker shrapnel in brother#1 and I can verify that, the scenario gets awful problematic.
4) There are a lotta strange pieces of info I am picking up. Instances of the press given deliberately bogus information suggesting they had orginally been planning on fingering someone else. Strange security details. Strange sightings. Strange people in the crowd.
5) Alex Jones.
6) This event sure fills a lotta Obama's purposes. Please come protect me and take away my rights if you have to. You still can't get those bills thru congress? I was worried after Sandy Hook but now I'm really hysterical.
7) Occam's Razor. They really do fit the profile. I'm tired.
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| | | 290 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 15:30
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Chicago. Which statements would have to be thrown out if they decide he needed mirandizing? Does when he was charged figure into it? I didn't think so. I thot it was whatever he says before miranda gets thrown out of court.
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| | | 291 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 15:37
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So where do you guys stand? Should he be allowed to lawyer up and not talk or do we hold him as an enemy combatant?
We are a Nation of Laws, right?
What does the law say?
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| | | 292 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 15:48
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nerve...
The law says if criminal charges are brought against him he is allowed his Miranda rights and can lawyer up and not talk. They can only hold a suspect for 48 hours before they have to bring charges. I think there is some latitude if they use a public safety clause.
The law also says he can be held as an enemy combatant (example: gitmo prisoners)...this waives all of his rights and allows the government wide latitude in how they deal with him.
While he is in the current state of suspect being held for questioning. Whatever he says can be used against him but it is not as strong of evidence...they generally use this time to extract info so they can bring charges. It his still his responsibility to know and exercise his rights not to talk.
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| | | 294 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 16:04
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Baldwin
1) I am interested in how closely the authorities were watching the two. Hard to believe it wasn't a lot. The mother says so and I believe her on that point.
Agreed
2) This raises the question of whether this was allowed to proceed.
Agreed
3) I've run thru in my mind what they would have had to do to make this appear as it does, if they were actually innocent patsies. If there are actual pressure cooker shrapnel in brother#1 and I can verify that, the scenario gets awful problematic.
"innocent" patsies? Doubtful they are "innocent" patsies. That doesn't rule out guilty patsies.
and how will you "verify" there is pressure cooker shrapnel in the older brother and even if there is, does that mean there cannot be more to the story?
4) Strange security details. Strange sightings. Strange people in the crowd.
Agreed, strange people in the crowd? Like the two bulky guys in sunglasses that looked like military who had (how does it happen) black back packs on? Seemed to be listening into ear phones, look far more suspicious then the actual suspects.
link
link
link
I saw these on mainstream news sites 3 days ago but they seem to have been wiped now.
5) Alex Jones.
Not really in the loop with Alex so I can't comment, I don't really know anything about him. I draw my own conclusions on things.
6) This event sure fills a lotta Obama's purposes. Please come protect me and take away my rights if you have to. You still can't get those bills thru congress? I was worried after Sandy Hook but now I'm really hysterical.
Now there is the Baldwin I was looking for.
7) Occam's Razor. They really do fit the profile. I'm tired.
Oh as Peter Falk always said, one last thing, did you see the Black golf cap oldest brother was wearing? and I didn't get this from Alex,or anyone else... found it myself.
link
Good to see you are still at least using deductive thought to some degree, even if they are Muslims.
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| | | 295 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 16:07
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If it is true, that there is a public safety claus, and that is indeed the law, it would seem there isn't much debate?
It just depends on whether or not that actually is the law.
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| | | 296 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 16:51
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Yup, like those guys.
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| | | 297 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 16:57
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BTW, Nerve, if they ever take it to the next level and start forging social media, planting evidence, making false accusations of material found on computers, everyone is gonna be worse than blind. How would you know? They can already twist what is there.
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| | | 298 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 16:59
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Nerve
Also 'allowed' presumes guilty patsy.
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| | | 299 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 17:09
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For the record those guys are totally geared up as navy seals. They've got punisher patches and are wearing iconic seal gear. I understand it if people assume that's a regular security detail. I'm the kinda guy who stores that info away. Nice catch with the identi-pairs.
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| | | 300 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 17:16
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Wow, identi-bridgestone hats.
Jones thinks they had originally planned on blaming it on military patsies but had back-up plans. You know that they are tarring military as potential terrorists and people who should be routinely denied RTBA.
He then thinks that when those planted patsies got fingered prematurely and suspicions raised on that story by internet sleuthes, they went to plan B. Blame the muslims.
I rarely believe Jones entirely but I grade his odds of being right.
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| | | 301 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 17:30
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I understand it if people assume that's a regular security detail.
I have no problem with there being obvious security there. I am just pointing to the odd coincidence they have black back packs on.
Wow, identi-bridgestone hats.
I was referring to the number on the back of the older brothers cap. Alex didn't catch that?
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| | | 302 | Boldwin
ID: 56343207 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 17:39
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How does this rate on your BS detector? Kinda failing over here on mine.
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| | | 303 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 416222423 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 17:52
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Decent article on unanswered questions...
Personally I would like to know...How did they acquire the weapons they had? How did they fund the purchase of said weapons? How did they get grenades? What did the brother do in his two trips to Russia in 2012 (6 months)? Did they have contact/help from other radicals in this country? Where and how exactly did they learn to build IED devices? They do have social media from the pair where they extol the virtues of radical islam. It is not really a stretch to conclude these were not the only two involved. Declare him an enemy combatant and get answers, no way I charge this guy criminally at this time.
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| | | 304 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 18:00
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CTRS: They can charge him with trespassing and hold him. It isn't an either/or.
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| | | 305 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 18:14
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PD agreed, they will hold them as long as they please, enemy combatant or not, US Citizen or not, rights or not. They are holding them, and NO ONE will question it vigorously.
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| | | 306 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 18:32
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Somewhere around the time you kill a campus cop, throw a pressure cooker loaded with explosives out the car at chasing police, open up with firearms, and are shot by police and your own pressure cooker...you stop being just a suspect.
here is the problem with that logic.
Who told us it was the (I'll say it) "alleged" suspects who threw explosives, were shooting at the police? Killed the MIT cop? It was the police who told us right? The government.
Now is it true?
Probably.
How do we know? Well I mean the police told us, right? And the police never lie, so logically whenever the police tell us a "suspect" did something, he is no longer a suspect, he now becomes a criminal, because the police, and the government never lie.
Let me be clear, I am not saying it's not true, but you cannot just say, well the police told us they did this so it must be true, or we might as well get rid of all the lawyers, and the courts, and just let the police hang whoever they say we should.
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| | | 307 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 19:03
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Perm...I do not think you understand.
Yes...they can charge him and hold him forever. I am not debating this. My point is once they charge him he is afforded certain rights under our criminal justice system. Right to an attorney...said attorney will immediately advise him to not make any more statements to authorities. Legally they cannot hold someone without charges for more than 48 hours...yes there are ways around this using the public safety clause but it cannot be used indefinitely. The main point is once they charge him with crimes he is afforded certain rights which will make it much more difficult to extract information from him.
It is either or. They either charge him with crimes and try him through the federal criminal justice system or they declare him an enemy combatant and he is stripped of right to council and the rights we are afforded in this country. They can simply hold and question him indefinitely once declared an enemy combatant.
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| | | 308 | Khahan
ID: 16341313 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 19:23
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Well here's a question to consider - who says they are officially holding him? Last I read (which was just a few mins ago), the suspect was in critical condition in a hospital bed.
Yes, he's under heavy guard. But there are a number of reasons for this that have nothing to do with holding him.
And how would reading him his miranda rights do anything? He is no condition to understand those rights as they are read to him. After all, the Miranda case was all about making sure the rights were understandable - not just that they were read.
I think people are getting way ahead of themselves with this discussion. Let him be in critical in ICU for a while. If he dies, he dies. If he recovers THEN charge him and read him his rights. But doing so now accomplishes nothing. If no government agency is holding him as of now (in other words its just his medical condition) then there is no need for anything else. Its my understanding he can't even be questioned right now due to his condition.
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| | | 309 | Khahan
ID: 16341313 Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 19:25
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And yes, I'm aware the Justice Dept even said they are invoking the public safety exceptions. It just all seems silly to me at this point in time.
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| | | 312 | Action Figure
ID: 262442819 Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 17:33
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If this is not a conspiracy and I don't think that it is, then the 19 YO is just a bag man and he doesn't know anything about anything.
One thing that intrigues me though is the 19 YO kids Bruce Willis-esque skills.
He is able to rush at police officers in an automobile (while his brother is being cuffed) and run over his brother. I read that he wasn't a good driver at all but that could work both ways, maybe that’s how he was able to pull this off. Next this wounded 19 YO “pot head” manages to avoid capture and ditch the car, he proceeds on foot to a back yard just OUTSIDE the search zone. A neighbor finds him passed out inside his boat and calls 911. The kid then has a short shoot-out with the cops before his surrender.
The older guy was the one with the information they are looking for, this young guy was just following his brother’s orders but to be able to pull off this great escape the kid must know where to find some really good weed.
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| | | 313 | Boldwin
ID: 263272017 Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 17:53
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You skipped the part where he regained consciousness to shoot at police.
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| | | 314 | Boldwin
ID: 453232117 Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 18:24
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Friend
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| | | 315 | Boldwin
ID: 453232117 Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 19:06
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Exactly
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| | | 316 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 21:26
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I'm trying to figure something out.
Article in the UK Dailey Mirror claims he climbed out of the boat on his own power, and in fact there is a photo of him sitting on the side of the boat as he's climbing out. They also say he shot himself in the mouth and the bullet went out the back of his neck. While he was in the boat.
link
How does one shoot ones self in the mouth and then climb out of a boat on his own power.
Same article states he was swearing profusely in the ambulance, but we are told he cannot speak because he shot himself in the throat on the boat. So why was he able to speak in the ambulance immediately after shooting himself in the throat?
Anyone have a clue for me?
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| | | 317 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 22:41
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I dont recall the statistic, but I was amazed NC, at how many suicide attempts via shooting oneself on the mouth, FAILED. It is indeed possible, he shot himself, and retained mobility.
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| | | 318 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 00:59
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Sarge always is handy with the Answers...
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| | | 319 | Boldwin
ID: 453232117 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 02:19
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No time to provide links, but they've found no trace of bomb making material at brother's abodes, which leaves the parent's home or possibly a larger cell. They've re-arrested people they think were possibly co-conspirators.
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| | | 320 | Nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 08:32
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If I was standing talking with Sarge, and a woman walked by with a rooster on her head, AND the rooster was laying eggs, Sarge would shrug his shoulders and have a logical explanation for it.
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| | | 321 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 10:01
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You asked the question, I just gave you the answer. I've been told before, I need to be on JEOPARDY, since I'm a well of useless information. :)
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| | | 322 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 10:48
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Question...should he be given rights of a US citizen? Retain his US citizenship status?
Oath he took just 7 months ago:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; so help me God."
Should we grant US citizen rights to terrorists if they take a false oath? After WWII we had nazis escape to this country and become citizens. After they were exposed we did revoke citizenship and try them as war criminals. Why should terrorists be any different?
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| | | 323 | Tree
ID: 38322228 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:11
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i'm not going to pull punches with this.
i believe this boils down to bigotry.
i mentioned Eric Rudolph, and Baldwin accused me of some nonsense about wanting Christians rounded up.
I'll mention Timothy McVeigh too. what McVeigh did was worse than these two. What Rudolph did, was on the same level.
yet they were given their due process. they were read their miranda rights, they were given their day in court.
and it was because they are white, and they were BORN in this country.
this is not to excuse what these two brothers did. this hits close to home, having lift many years in the Boston area, and having graduated from the same University the younger brother was attending as recently as last week.
but to me, what has always separated us from other countries, what has always allowed us to protest when another country holds someone indefinitely, unfairly, or without due process - be it a military situation or a civilian situation - is that we have always been the ones, on a relative scale, to do the right thing.
if we start - and continue - to hold people indefinitely, to deny them their rights, to deny them a fair trial and due process - then we have NO GROUND to stand on when another country does something like that one of our citizens.
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| | | 324 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:16
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You are missing the fact that those people were caught before the FBI developed the "public safety" exception, Tree. It isn't so much "racism" as "timing."
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| | | 325 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 34019238 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:17
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There is plenty of precedent and law to revoke his citizenship: Revocation of naturalization
Just not sure what benefit there is to allowing this terrorist the rights of a US citizen?
"revoking and setting aside the order admitting such person to citizenship and canceling the certificate of naturalization on the ground that such order and certificate of naturalization were illegally procured or were procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation"
"in a case where such person has been convicted of contempt for such refusal, shall be held to constitute a ground for revocation of such person’s naturalization under this subsection as having been procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation."
"hall within five years next following such naturalization become a member of or affiliated with any organization, membership in or affiliation with which at the time of naturalization would have precluded such person from naturalization under the provisions of section 1424 of this title, it shall be considered prima facie evidence that such person was not attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States and was not well disposed to the good order and happiness of the United States at the time of naturalization, and, in the absence of countervailing evidence, it shall be sufficient in the proper proceeding to authorize the revocation and setting aside of the order admitting such person to citizenship and the cancellation of the certificate of naturalization"
etc...etc...plenty of law on the side of revoking his rights as a citizen.
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| | | 326 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 34019238 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:22
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Main point is I do not want to see this terrorist "lawyered up"...as soon as he is charged and read Miranda rights he will be assigned about a dozen lawyers and will not answer another question.
Would like to know. Were they aided by others in this country? Aided by people outside this country? Who trained them to build the bombs and detonation devices? Who funded them? Who converted them to radical islam? etc...etc...
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| | | 327 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:23
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The burden of proof is on the government to prove the charges of willfulness, etc. This is a high bar (for good reason) and it isn't in the government's hands to just pull his citizenship.
At this point, particularly, we don't know enough information. Amd, as I've said elsewhere, if it turns out that these guys were just idiots with bombs, even the terrorism charge goes away.
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| | | 328 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:36
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Adam Lanza, Catholic, born US citizen...no questioning about his rights from the rightwing.
Jared Loughner, born US citizen, no questions about his rights.
James Holmes, Lutheran, born US citizen; no questions about his rights.
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, born US, no questions about their rights.
Eric Rudolph, born US citizen, no questions about his rights.
Timothy McVeigh, born US citizen, no questions about his rights.
Ted Bundy, born US citizen, no questions.
Jeffrey Dahmer, born US, no questions.
John Wayne Gacy, born US citizen, no questions.
WHY, do you question the civil rights of THIS one man?
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| | | 329 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:39
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"Main point is I do not want to see this terrorist "lawyered up""
Keep in mind that he doesn't just get the right to a lawyer when the police read him his Miranda rights. He already has that right (in fact, so do non-citizens but let's not get into that). He could, at any point, request a lawyer and any questions would stop.
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| | | 330 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:47
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Perm...wrong...they do not have to provide him a lawyer until he is charged. At this point they are holding him under the public safety exception and he is not afforded the right to council. This is why the ACLU is screaming to high heaven. He does always have the right to remain silent...Miranda rights reminder or not...but at this point he cannot speak to a lawyer because he has not been charged.
Sarge...were any of those you mention though to have ties to foreign terrorist organizations? Were any thought to be potential enemy combatants? Most of those you mention were crazed lone psychopaths.
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| | | 331 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:51
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This kid just got his citizenship 7 months ago. Most likely under false statements and purposes of evasion. There is a probation period for citizenship (link provided). I just do not see the point of affording terrorists extra rights based on the fact they were able to trick the immigration and naturalization system.
It is in our best interest if all information is extracted from him. If he is given lawyers that will not be possible. People thinking the threat of the death penalty will make him talk...this kid already stuck a gun in his own mouth and tried to give himself the death penalty...kind of doubt the threat of lethal injection will bother him much.
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| | | 332 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:54
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It would have been hard for you to have put more speculation into your post than you already did. Suffice to say that you have virtually no information up which to make the conclusions you do. None of us do.
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| | | 333 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 11:57
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THOUGHT to CRS? REALLY? Is that todays burden of proof? "Well, we THOUGHT he might have been guilty, so we hanged him" SERIOUSLY?????
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| | | 334 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 12:17
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Sarge...what? Can not decipher that...
My only point is...it is in all of our benefit to extract all information from this terrorist. I really do not think anyone at this point questions his guilt (mountains of evidence says they were the perpetrators). Do I know if he was controlled by a foreign or domestic terrorist organization? no...but I sure as hell would like the government to do everything in their power to find the actual answer to that question. They may interrogate him and find nothing...and then they can convict and give him the death penalty...but we should certainly extract every ounce of information from him before we go down that path.
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| | | 335 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 12:22
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You cant decipher that? Apparently, you are ready to toss aside any and all civil rights, if a govt agency THINKS you MIGHT have a connection to a terror group. No proof needed, just a suggestion and BAM! No rights for you.
I think, you need to sit down, read very slowly and carefully, the Bill of Rights, and digest each and every word as you do.
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| | | 336 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 12:29
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sarge...no proof?!? Timed IED devices. Setting off bombs in public places. Jihadist videos/tweets/social media. Travel to terrorist zones. Warnings from the Russian government that the older brother was a radical islamist. FBI investigations. Executing a police officer. More bombs found. etc...etc...
There is a little more than "THINKS you MIGHT have a connection to a terror group"...I think all of the above leads to much more than maybe there was a connection. To probably there was a connection...or minimally we should use all of our intelligence to determine what if any connections exist.
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| | | 337 | DWetzel
ID: 59149910 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 12:40
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Someone being "probably" (heck, even "almost certainly!") guilty of something doesn't mean they don't have any rights in America.
At least, it didn't used to.
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| | | 338 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 13:13
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Proof CRS, comes in the courtroom, not in the opinion of wingnuts.
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| | | 339 | DWetzel
ID: 59149910 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 13:21
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Nor in the opinion of non-wingnuts for that matter.
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| | | 340 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 13:34
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#337....is SPOT on.
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| | | 341 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 34019238 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 14:01
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sarge...than why has your president/justice department not brought charges or read his Miranda rights? Why did they specifically and purposely not read him his Miranda rights? Left-wing nuts? President and justice department has still not made clear how they are going to handle him. It seems quite obvious they want to interrogate him before allowing him to "lawyer up".
This country has a public safety clause that allows us to hold and question terrorists and withhold their rights. It is for the greater good that we extract all information from this suspect before granting rights.
If you know anything about the criminal justice system, the suspect once assigned lawyers will not make another statement, will not be questioned. I am ok with suspending the bill of rights when it comes to terrorists...there are laws on the books that specifically allow it.
Obama signed what they are using into law: National Defense Authorization Act
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| | | 343 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 14:24
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All this talk about whether he should be advised of his Miranda rights.
Won't about everyone agree that there is almost certainly enough evidence to convict him and then give him a death sentence?
Fine. So what are the ramifications of questioning him anyway? The main reason a suspect is advised of his rights is to let them know that whatever they may say could be used against them in court. With this guy, the government does not need any incriminating statements or admissions to convict. So, the government is just as free as ever to go ahead and elicit information from him for intelligence purposes. They won't need elicited information to convict.
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| | | 344 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 14:24
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Just did charge him...mistake imo. Though depends how much information he already gave authorities. Problem is now he will have lawyers and will no longer talk to anyone. He will get convicted and deservedly put to death...just makes me wonder if we could have extracted more information from him to protect against future attacks...maybe located additional cells/terrorists that are in country.
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| | | 345 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 14:30
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bibA - the problem is once charged...he now has legal council. The first thing his lawyer team will do is not allow him to be questioned any further. He now will evoke the right to remain silent and will not cooperate. I guess whatever...doubtful he knew a ton...but still would have been nice to extract what we could.
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| | | 346 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 14:32
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Why would we be able to "extract" more information from him if he wasn't charged? If he wants to talk, he still can. It's not like a lawyer could prevent him from doing so if he decided to talk anyway. Just can't use that info as evidence in his trial.
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| | | 347 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 14:36
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(obviously unrelated CTRS, but are you still playing any online poker? Years ago you were of great assistance with advice on this subject, and it was appreciated.)
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| | | 348 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 14:38
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bibA - if not charged he could be held and interrogated by the secret service indefinitely. Could be sent to Guantanamo and held and interrogated daily until they did extract info. Now he will have a team of lawyers that make sure he is not interrogated and will not talk. Is what it is...doubt we will get anything from him now.
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| | | 349 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 14:48
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I pretty much quit playing mid 2009. Games started drying up for me...competition got too tough. I did have a few thousand in Full Tilt when it went belly up...but was only rarely playing at the time. Do miss the extra income...maybe one day they will legalize it.
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| | | 350 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 14:53
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You need not advise me CTRS, on the NDAA of 2012. The signing of tat act by Obama is the sole reason I did not vote for him last Nov. Of course, Rmney, Gingrich, Santorum, ALL supported it as well. There were 3 candidates who did not support it, and in fact came out publicly opposed to it: R Paul, G Johnson and Jill Stein. I voted for Stein.
That some in the govt may be willing to cast aside our way of law, is no excuse for us as voters, to endorse or allow them the doing.
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| | | 351 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 16:02
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Sorry for the off-topic post. CTRS, you should read at least the first couple of chapters of Nate Silver's book, The Signal and the Noise, for an interesting read on online poker and the profitability of it.
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| | | 352 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 17:15
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Frick...read the amazon summary...sounds interesting. I have always been sort of a student of predictive science. Added the book to my wish list...will get it and read it eventually...thanks for the recommendation.
I do understand exactly why I stopped winning when I did. With ever tightening government regulations it got a lot harder to add new money to the game, thus the fish stopped playing, new players stopped playing...sharks started eating other sharks. Only a certain percentage will be profitable and when the losers leave former winners slide into the loser category.
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| | | 354 | Boldwin
ID: 213232214 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 20:00
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Nevermind Islam, the hunt continues... John Hayward, RedStateLiberal hopes were dashed with the revelation that the Boston Marathon bombers were a couple of Chechen Muslim immigrants. The Left was so sure they had finally bagged the elusive Tea Party murderer! The bombings occurred in Boston on Tax Day. Surely, at long last, the opportunity to smear libertarians, small-government conservatives, anti-tax crusaders, and the whole hellish tri-corner hat crowd was at hand! ”Two plus two equals…?” Michael Moore burbled happily... --- Substitute the Tea Party for Islam, and liberals would be hitting the floor in a swoon of ecstasy today, their every fantasy about the adversaries of Big Government joyously fulfilled. The Internet would groan beneath the weight of their blog posts and op-eds. And it’s not hard to imagine various officials of the Obama Administration egging them on, linking the bombers to everything from the defeat of gun-control legislation to sequestration.
Every Republican would become an accessory to the bombings. They would be expected to offer ritual denunciation of Boston Marathon attacks every day, for months to come. Then they would be presented with lively figures from the outer edges of non-violent conservatism, and expected to denounce them, too. Anything less would be tacit acceptance of the “climate of hate” that could lead to more murders. Voodoo dolls from closer and closer to the mainstream of conservative thought would then be chosen for these denunciation rituals, presenting Republican political leaders with an increasingly difficult choice between meeting the expectations of the liberal media, and alienating their voters. We saw a dry run of all this when liberals invented their “climate of hate” out of then air to link the Tucson shooter to their political enemies. Back then, two plus two was supposed to equal Sarah Palin and her bullseye-festooned electoral map.
The embarrassing failure of their “climate of hate” Tucson hysteria didn’t stop the Left from doing exactly the same thing last week, and last week’s narrative implosion won’t stop them from trying it again next time. Sooner or later, one of these maniacs will turn out to be someone who doesn’t like ObamaCare! There’s no practical reason for liberals to stop running this game; they pay no real price for getting it wrong. Dzhokar Tsarnaev celebrated Barack Obama’s re-election online, but he could easily restart the entire liberal Climate of Hate greenhouse-gas system by casually remarking to his interrogators that he’s thought it over, and now really wishes Mitt Romney had won. Do not for one moment doubt how quickly that would unleash a tidal wave of triumphant “aha, we knew it!” blog posts from the same people who got the “Tax Day bombing” smear wrong.
Sick and evil people also tend to have some more “normal” interests. They can fixate on anything as the “inspiration” for a mad rampage. They can sign themselves up for fan clubs that would rather not have them. Look at the manifesto left behind by L.A. spree killer Chris Dorner. He named a lot of people and organizations in that rambling screed, speaking very highly of some. Those people are not responsible for his foul deeds. Lunatics and murders should not be allowed to define the boundaries of acceptable discourse and association.
Along those lines, decent Muslims are not responsible for the atrocity perpetrated by the Tsarnaev brothers. However, it is hopelessly naive at this point to speak of a “tiny minority of extremists” hijacking the religion of a billion people. The radical elements of Islam are larger and more powerful than that. They enjoy financial and cultural support from malevolent political factions who find Islam a comfortable fit with their ideology. The same media that never stops trying to weave an intellectual web between mainstream conservatism and bloodthirsty murderers is willing to discreetly avert its gaze from the radicalization of Islam overseas, and the tentacles these radicals are working patiently to extend into the United States. Islam has a problem, and only good, outspoken Muslims can solve it. We’re not doing them any favors by soft-pedaling the magnitude of the challenge they face, or setting a low bar of expectations for their achievements.
We might have gotten a good look at one of those outspoken good Muslims last week. (It seems patronizing to refer to them as “moderate Muslims.” Moderating between what – support for terrorism and good citizenship? We shouldn’t be looking for the “moderate” region between those “extremes.”) The Tsarnaev brothers’ Uncle Ruslan – a man who must have been going through a private hell few of us can imagine, as word of his nephews’ responsibility for the Boston Marathon bombings spread – thundered that these despicable acts of murder were an insult to the honor of his family, the Chechen people, and Islam. He denounced the terrorists in no uncertain terms, calling them “losers” who sought to ruin the lives of hard-working people making an honorable place for themselves in the great “mini-world” of America. Instead of hunting for the mythical snipe and wumpus of Tea Party murderers, the Left should take a lesson from Uncle Ruslan on calling out the real extremists in our midst.
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| | | 355 | Tree
ID: 473532212 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 20:04
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...liberals would be hitting the floor in a swoon of ecstasy today.
the entire premise, the entire thought that anyone would be in any sort of ecstasy over an act that killed and maimed scores of people, is digusting.
it shows ME, just how whacked out some people on the right are.
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| | | 356 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 20:08
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Everything is political, for the Far Right.
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| | | 357 | Khahan
ID: 16341313 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 20:40
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Everything is political, for the Far sides
Fixed that up for you PD.
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| | | 358 | Tree
ID: 473532212 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 20:43
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Khahan's 357 is fair.
the difference being that the Far Right is much louder than the far left, or anyone in the middle.
much the way Muslim Terrorists don't speak for all Muslims, the Far Right doesn't speak for all of those on the Right.
they just speak the loudest, and unfortunately, get heard the most.
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| | | 359 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 20:44
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Oh, I quite agree. But we really don't have any Far Lefties posting here anymore.
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| | | 360 | Boldwin
ID: 213232214 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 21:07
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You have to keep moving the 'reasonable' marker left to believe something crazy like that.
You are arm in arm with Bill Ayers after all.
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| | | 361 | Boldwin
ID: 213232214 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 21:08
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| | | 362 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 21:28
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You are arm in arm with Bill Ayers after all.
Translation - just in case there's anyone left who thinks I'm a conservative as opposed to a wingnut.
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| | | 363 | Tree
ID: 193322220 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 21:32
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You are arm in arm with Bill Ayers after all.
well, at least you're consistent with your idiotic statements.
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| | | 364 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 21:40
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When you are as far right as Baldwin, even a moderate Dem looks like "Bill Ayers."
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| | | 365 | Boldwin
ID: 27312221 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 23:38
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And now! [In Bill Ayer's living room]...I give you Barrack Obama! - Bill Ayers
Hey, you might like this guy. - PD
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| | | 366 | Boldwin
ID: 27312221 Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 23:41
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Supposedly a pic in suspect#1's social media page.
Terrorist#1
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| | | 367 | Tree
ID: 47311239 Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 10:20
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And now! [In Bill Ayer's living room]...I give you Barrack Obama! - Bill Ayers
as has been explained multiple times, that's fiction. but, if it makes you feel more acceptable about being a rotten human being to blame it on others, i suppose that's human nature.
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| | | 368 | Tree
ID: 47311239 Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 10:24
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Terrorist#1
it actually reads Terrorista #1, and belongs to friends of the younger of the two Boston Bombers.
the back of the car has a sticker that says "f*ck you you f*cking f*cks."
"Terrorista" is a prominently repeated phrase from the recent uber hit the Harlem Shake.
definitely not much to see here, in regards to that, but it's funny to see folks make a big deal of a song like that.
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| | | 370 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 10:53
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Why is #369 in this thread?
Can't we have an I hate Obama thread solely for our resident superstar without having every thread polluted with this shit?
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| | | 371 | Tree
ID: 47311239 Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 11:08
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re 370 - it goes to Baldwin's belief that if you're not a radical right wing Christian who righteously bombs abortion clinics and the Olympics to "save lives", you must be some radical liberal who bombed alongside Ayers and the Weather Underground.
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| | | 372 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 11:49
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Boldwin - is 369 supposed to be some kind of evidence that Obama is responsible for the Boston bombing?
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| | | 373 | Boldwin
ID: 25332317 Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 18:08
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Quick, censor Bob Beckel.
Get him fired. Convene the hate crime commission. Fire up the media firestorm of hate against him for weeks.
Common sense breaking out in the least likely venue.
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| | | 374 | Boldwin
ID: 25332317 Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 18:10
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bibA
It is the sledge hammer post to #364, #365 and #367.
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| | | 375 | Tree
ID: 47311239 Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 18:26
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Bob Beckel, there's a voice of reason, he of rapes on college campuses don't happen infamy. not to mention his comments about gang rape, his comments about Jews, and all the other offensive things he's said.
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| | | 376 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 18:35
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What a stupid ass Beckel is. But apparently there is an audience for stupid crap.
So we shouldn't take in children into this country from Muslim countries until we can "absorb" the ones we have. Nice. Oh, and don't forget the "send them back or to prison" point. Yes--that's exactly what this country stands for. A beacon of hope for non-Muslims everywhere.
Except for the "diamond merchants" of course (his phrase).
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| | | 378 | Boldwin
ID: 25332317 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 07:10
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Ex-roommate and ex-best friend and sparring partner.
And Jew.
And victim along with two other Jews:

in a nearby 9/11/11 triple homicide. Their heads were nearly hacked off.
--- That would be an anniversary of 9/11 for the slow. ---
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| | | 379 | Boldwin
ID: 25332317 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 07:50
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Names can shape people to one degree or another.
The historic Tamerlane aka Timur
Muslim conqueror who founded the Mughal Empire, which ruled South Asia for over three centuries, from 1526 until 1858. Timur relied on Islamic symbols and language, referring to himself as the Sword of Islam. During his lifetime Timur emerged as the most powerful ruler in the Muslim world after defeating the Mamluks of Egypt and Syria, the emerging Ottoman Empire and the declining Sultanate of Delhi. Timur had also decisively defeated the Christian Knights Hospitaller at Smyrna, styling himself a Ghazi. By the end of his reign Timur had also gained complete control over all the remnants of the Chagatai Khanate, Ilkhanate, Golden Horde and even attempted to restore the Yuan dynasty. - Wiki
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| | | 380 | Boldwin
ID: 25332317 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 10:35
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French parallel23-year old Mohammed Merah, who terrorized the Toulouse region over a number of days, killing seven people -- French military personnel, Jewish schoolchildren and a rabbi -- in a series of attacks that paralyzed the area until he was taken out in a hail of bullets following a lengthy police standoff at his residence.
The French public wondered how Merah had the opportunity to go full-blown jihad even though he was known to French authorities and intelligence services and was known to have made trips to the Afghanistan-Pakistan border region, known for its terrorist training camps. According to reports, Afghan forces had detained Merah and tried to turn him over to U.S. officials, but they instructed the Afghans to turn him over to the French military, which then returned him to France.
Some of the intelligence documents related to the Merah case have been declassified and provide valuable insight into the mentality of these young jihadists. The similarities to the Boston case -- and the related intelligence failures -- are stunning. Here are a few:
--Merah's brother, Abdelkader, is still being held in prison more than a year after the deadly attacks on charges of complicity. He refuses to identify a person of interest in the case. Another brotherly duo.
--In conversations with authorities during the standoff, Merah mocked their inability to figure everything out despite ample evidence of his involvement with terrorist groups: "I got myself arrested by the Jews in Israel, by Iraqi soldiers in Mosul, by Algerian soldiers in the mountains of Boumerdes or mountains next to the Kabylia region where all our brothers operate. I got myself arrested in Afghanistan." Merah suggested that authorities should have "called the cyber-police," since he even sent his mother an email from the terrorist mecca of Waziristan. What did the Boston suspects' e-trail reveal beyond a YouTube account possibly opened by Tamerlan Tsarnaev in 2012 that included a subcategory of deleted videos that had been labeled "terrorists"?
--French intelligence had been following Merah since 2006 and was ultimately misled into thinking he was just a harmless punk because he acted like a typical delinquent -- with the exception of all the terrorist theme-park trips, of course. Similarly, Dzhokar Tsarnaev's Twitter account reflected little more than what his friends described as an interest in girls and parties. It's a strategy, not a coincidence. Around 2009, Merah had deliberately begun the Islamic practice of "taqiyya," a jihadist tactic that involves hiding one's Islamism by partying, avoiding mosques, and otherwise blending in with the prevailing culture to muddy the waters of suspicion. It seemed to work brilliantly, because at one point, French intelligence even considered using Merah as an asset in light of all the trips he was making to Terrorist Disneyland (but ultimately decided against it, according to a statement by French Interior Minister Manuel Valls last month). All this despite the fact that French authorities had written in 2007: "Mohamed Merah could be considered a 'radical jihadist.'"
And what about the possibility of a terrorist sleeper cell near Boston that authorities have been investigating in connection with the bombings, according to Britain's Daily Mirror? A sleeper cell was busted in France last October, and its stash included the same pressure-cooker-bomb materials popularized in a 2010 issue of al-Qaeda's online magazine, "Inspire," and used in the Boston bombings.
There's no mystery here. It's just the same old jihad. And now you know why he was so chummy with the natives, so seldom in attendance at his local mosque and yet so very devout.
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| | | 381 | Boldwin
ID: 25332317 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 10:54
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At which terrorism case do we revisit the current asylum process that waved thru the Tsarnaev family?“the odds of an asylum claim being denied in Immigration Court reached an historic low in FY 2012, with only 44.5 percent being turned down. Ten years ago, almost two out of three (62.6 percent) individuals seeking asylum lost their cases in similar actions. Twenty years ago, fewer than one out of four (24 percent) asylum applicants won their cases, while three out of four (76 percent) lost.”
The game is rigged in favor of identity-group hustlers, who mau-mau adjudicators whose approval rates don’t meet their approval. - Michelle Malkin Read the whole thing including the long list of successful terrorists and proven plotters who gamed the system.
Thanks for the sieve borders.
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| | | 382 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 11:05
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It's just the same old jihad
Surely a sign of the apocolypse and armageddon. One guy in France goes on a killing spree, yet over 6 million French Muslims didn't.
Two brothers go on a bombing spree in Boston, yet 10 million Muslims in the United States didn't join in.
Yep, same old jihad.
But really, you're right. There is no mystery here. The thirst for Holy War by painting Muslims as enemies intent on violent jihad in every corner of the Western world is quite apparent, even though less than .00001% of the Muslim populations of France and the United States have involved themselves with this same old jihad.
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| | | 383 | Tree
ID: 38322228 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 11:22
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At which terrorism case do we revisit the current asylum process that waved thru the Tsarnaev family?
i dunno. what do we do about American born terrorists such as Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, Nidal Hasan, Terry Nichols, Jose Padilla, and so forth?
maybe we should just start deporting everyone, regardless of where they're from.
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| | | 384 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 11:29
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There's a certain wisdom in being a lot more meticulous about screening people who are Chechen refugees or any number of other areas where jihad-based Islam is prevalent.
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| | | 385 | Boldwin
ID: 25332317 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 11:54
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And there it is. You both facilitate it and when it comes true you blame it on the ones sounding the warning. They were the ones who thirsted for a holy war.
It could have been prevented and the early warning showed you where you were going wrong.
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| | | 386 | Boldwin
ID: 73292421 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 22:29
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Strangest related story of all.

Abdulrahman Ali Al-Harbi
Questioned in the Boston marathon case, multiple government sources confirm to Fox News that this guy was set to be deported. Janet Napolitano denied it before congress.
And visited by Michele Obama.

You can't make this stuff up. You can't explain it. You don't get an explanation.
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| | | 387 | Tree
ID: 38322228 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 22:39
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Breitbart - there's a source that's never been debunked... /sarcasm
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| | | 388 | Boldwin
ID: 73292421 Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 23:22
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And the identity gets clearer.
He is Osama Bin Laden's son.
He was 50 feet away from the explosion, 'tackled fleeing' the bombing, he was hospitalized with severe hand burns and shrapnel in backside of leg.
The coincidence theorists will have a field day explaining away his bombing proximity and Michele's touching hospital visit. Not to mention our vaunted security system allowing him here and there.
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| | | 390 | Boldwin
ID: 14331254 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 05:34
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Yahoo NewsBOSTON (AP) — The surviving suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings acknowledged to the FBI his role in the attacks but did so before he was advised of his constitutional right to keep quiet and seek a lawyer, U.S. officials said Wednesday.
Once Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was read his rights on Monday, he immediately stopped talking, according to four officials of both political parties who were briefed on the interrogation but insisted on anonymity because the briefing was private.
After roughly 16 hours of questioning, investigators were surprised when a magistrate judge and a representative from the U.S. Attorney's office entered the hospital room and read Tsarnaev his rights, the four officials and one law enforcement official said. Investigators had planned to keep questioning him.
It is unclear whether any of this will matter in court since the FBI says Tsarnaev confessed to a witness and U.S. officials said Wednesday that physical evidence, including a 9 mm handgun and pieces of a remote-control device commonly used in toys, was recovered from the scene.
But the debate over whether suspected terrorists should be read their Miranda rights has become a major sticking point in the debate over how best to fight terrorism. Many Republicans, in particular, believe Miranda warnings are designed to build court cases, and only hinder intelligence gathering. === Before being advised of his rights, the 19-year-old suspect told authorities that his older brother, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, only recently had recruited him to be part of the attack, two U.S. officials said. === Investigators have found pieces of remote-control equipment among the debris and were analyzing them, officials said. One official described the detonator as "close-controlled," meaning it had to be triggered within several blocks of the bombs.
That evidence could be key to the court case. And an FBI affidavit said one of the brothers told a carjacking victim during their getaway attempt, "Did you hear about the Boston explosion? I did that."
Officials also recovered a 9 mm handgun believed to have been used by Tamerlan from the site of a Thursday night gunbattle that injured a Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority officer, two U.S. officials said.
The officials told the AP that no gun was found in the boat. Boston police Commissioner Ed Davis said earlier that shots were fired from inside the boat.
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| | | 391 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 11:23
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"Once Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was read his rights on Monday, he immediately stopped talking"
Exactly what I predicted. But people in this country do not care...give the US citizen his rights. One of the first thing the gov should have done is revoke his false citizenship.
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| | | 392 | Tree
ID: 38322228 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 11:33
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where does it stop? do we start stripping the rights away of everyone?
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| | | 393 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 11:44
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Reading him the Miranda warning does not convey upon him any rights. I'm not sure where this idea comes that a citizen who is arrested suddenly obtains rights (to a lawyer, for instance) when the government tells them about the rights but it simply isn't true.
The rights spelled out in Miranda, btw, are afforded to him regardless of whether he is a citizen or not so lets also stop this silly line of argument that he somehow waived his rights. He did not.
We are a country of laws. It is what makes this country attractive. Waiving rights, cutting corners, and ignoring the law is the despot's way.
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| | | 394 | Boldwin
ID: 14331254 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 12:20
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And the mosque itself, well they do a bit more than previously brought up.
The Mosque spokesman painted a picture of them making approving mention of MLK and terrorist#1 causing a scene over them praising a non-muslim. Yeah, that's probably what they mainly do...*eyeroll*.
I thot that served their purposes remarkably well at the time. Could it juuuust possibly be some more Taqiyya? Well sure it could.
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| | | 395 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 12:20
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Charging him DOES give him access to legal council. Before charging him and reading rights they do not need to give him access to a lawyer.
Where does it stop? How about anywhere south of terrorists.
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| | | 396 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 12:35
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He always has the right to counsel. Arresting him without charging doesn't delay that right one bit.
Whether he is a "terrorist" or not (which has a specific definition) doesn't matter. We are a nation of laws.
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| | | 397 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 13:33
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They do not need to provide him access to council until charged. They could hold him indefinitely under the public safety clause and legally withhold access to council. As soon as he was charged they then legally were obligated to provide him council. Fact.
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| | | 398 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 13:44
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The public safety clause (which is really just a policy rather than any actual law) is a temporary measure--he couldn't be held indefinitely. Nor would we want him to be. The public safety clause isn't an "out" from the law but represents a short-term balance of the interests of the State to investigate an on-going crime in which public safety might be in immediate danger and the rights of the accused to be given access to the full due process of the law.
And no: A citizen always has a right to counsel. They aren't granted that right by reading a warning. He could have refused to talk, or demanded a lawyer, at any time. Because the State isn't giving him the right--he is engaging in rights he already enjoys.
One other aspect of all this is that the Miranda Warning is intended to demonstrate a line beyond which information and evidence obtained through questioning is accepted in court. There is a danger to the State in not giving him his warning in that information they obtained beforehand that isn't obtained any other way, can't be admitted to a court.
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| | | 399 | Tree
ID: 543262512 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 13:47
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They could hold him indefinitely under the public safety clause and legally withhold access to council.
are you ok with the government holding your family indefinitely and without access to council?
are you ok with another country holding you indefinitely and without access to council?
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| | | 400 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 13:57
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They did not need testimony from him to get charges to stick...they had plenty of other proof he and his brother were the bomber. The point of holding him for questioning was to identify accomplices, how they did it, continue to interrogate, etc... No...a citizen does not always have a right to council.
The NDAA allows the US to hold terrorist suspects indefinitely: "The National Defense Authorization Act greatly expands the power and scope of the federal government to fight the War on Terror, including codifying into law the indefinite detention of terrorism suspects without trial. Under the new law the US military has the power to carry out domestic anti-terrorism operations on US soil." "the NDAA authorizes the military to detain even US citizens under the broad new anti-terrorism provisions provided in the bill, once again without trial."
They could have detained him indefinitely, legally withheld council, and continue to interrogate him.
He will get tried and likely face the death penalty...just would have been nice to extract everything we could from him first.
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| | | 401 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 14:04
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Tree...absolutely yes...if myself or my family are terrorists that just detonated IEDs at a public event.
The whole, "he is a US citizen" angle makes me sick. This terrorist just got citizenship 7 months prior. He obtained his citizenship by making false statements and legally could and should have his citizenship revoked. We should not give extra rights to terrorists just because he tricked the system into becoming a citizen.
I absolutely do understand protecting our rights...but I do not see much risk in withholding rights from terrorists.
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| | | 402 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 14:08
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Perhaps you overlooked my note above? He doesn't have to be a citizen to have a right to counsel, right to silence, etc.
He's not getting "extra" rights. The Constitution grants the rights to any "persons," not just citizens.
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| | | 403 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 14:11
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Perhaps you overlooked my note above? The NDAA allows the government to withhold those rights from terrorism suspects.
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| | | 404 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 14:15
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My note is in reference to the citizenship question which you claim makes you sick. It is a spurious argument--he gets rights no matter if he is a citizen or not.
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| | | 405 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 14:24
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The citizenship stuff was more just an open point and not meant to be directed at you. I just see this point being made often in the media and by others like we are supposed to care about this guy because after all he is an American.
The point is... The NDAA does allow the government to legally withhold those rights from terrorism suspects. It allows indefinite interrogation. Personally I would have liked to see all information extracted from him...I believe it is in the best interest of our country to find out all we could. Maybe we find nothing from him after interrogation...but now we will never know what he really knows.
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| | | 406 | Tree
ID: 543262512 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 14:24
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Tree...absolutely yes...if myself or my family are terrorists that just detonated IEDs at a public event.
so, if our government accused you and/or your family of detonating IEDs, you'd be ok with them imprisoning you indefinitely?
so, if a foreign government accused you and/or your family of detonating IEDs, you'd be ok with them imprisoning you indefinitely?
because that is what you're saying.
what if it turned out that he DIDN'T do it? now, don't get me wrong. i believe he did. but that doesn't change the fact that i'd rather not see innocent people held indefinitely due to our government making a mistake.
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| | | 407 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 14:28
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"if a foreign government accused you and/or your family of detonating IEDs, you'd be ok with them imprisoning you indefinitely?"
Don't kid yourself...foreign governments already can and will do this for much less.
If the US government had enough proof that myself or my family were terrorists and planted IED devices...have at it. This is an extraordinary event...there is very little risk of the government overreaching.
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| | | 408 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 14:48
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Baldwin The Mosque spokesman painted a picture of them making approving mention of MLK and terrorist#1 causing a scene over them praising a non-muslim. Yeah, that's probably what they mainly do...*eyeroll*.
This is where you show your true colors. How many Muslims do you know? I personally know dozens, personally (because I live in Dubai). I have found all of them to be more likely to praise MLK then to blow people up, but your world view doesn't accept that reality. You should really step back and check the "reality" you live in.
Yes there are Muslims who are radical, but these are groups mostly from Rural, poor, uneducated parts of the world. For example the UAE Govt. is TERRIFIED of these types. The UAE government speaks out publicly in no uncertain terms about these radicals. There are events happening here you don't even hear about (because the UAE is too small a country for anyone to care).
They are watching for this type radicalism like hawks and arresting and deporting (or holding) these type people because this is not the norm, it is not mainstream Islam. Does it exist? Of course. Is it normal and accepted among mainstream educated, 1st world Islam? On the contrary, they are terrified in the same way we are.
You have a prejudiced view. I don't blame you for it, you are being brainwashed and you are obviously weak to the influences of brainwashing and propaganda, (I assume because of your radical Christian views?) but it surprising that someone who claims to be so open minded about the conspiracy games being played, someone who claims to be a conspiracy theorist, but aren't. You only really support that view when it fits your right wing, Islamaphob agenda.
Yes radical Islam is happening as a fringe/third world movement, but you only support the view that "all Muslims are in some way evil".
The NWO is using the negative aspects of Islam, to further their (The NWO) goals, and you are a tool in their shed helping them.
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| | | 409 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 15:19
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So we have found the first Blatent, police/government lie if the Yahoo article is to be believed.
They told us when the "terrorist" was in the boat they were in a fierce shoot out. They said when they approached the boat the suspect began firing and they fired back.
Furthur they said he couldn't talk in the hospital because he put a gun in his mouth and shot himself through the throat.
Then you will remember I pointed out, after shooting himself in the back of the throat, he got out of the boat from his own power, and was reported by mainstream press to have cursed profusely in the ambulance?
But at the hospital he "couldn't talk" because he shot himself in the throat?
But now Yahoo news says "Authorities had previously said Dzhokhar exchanged gunfire with them for more than an hour Friday night before they captured him inside a boat covered by a tarp in a suburban Boston neighborhood backyard. But two U.S. officials said Wednesday that he was unarmed when captured, raising questions about the gunfire and how he was injured."
So if he didn't have a gun, how did he shoot himself in the throat? How is it he got in a shoot out with the police? The boat owner mentioned lots on gun shots in his boat.
Washington Post did a whole story on this.
link
So now here is what we know.
1) They cornered the suspect in a boat.
2) They shot at him.
3) They claimed later he a) shot at them and b) shot himself in the throat so he is now, conveniently, unable to talk
4) But he did not have a gun (By the governments own admission)
5) Could not have shot himself in the throat (Since the government now say he didn't have a gun) so "who" shot him in the throat?
And now that we see all these "claims" were a mistake, and the governments fault. What other "claims" were a mistake?
No worries, Sarge "33" (or someone) will explain it.
And for the record I didn't get fed this from anyone else, any "conspiro" site, just common sense research reading mainstream news article.
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| | | 410 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 15:26
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So Sarge 33, maybe that is how you put a gun in your mouth, pull the trigger, put a hole in the back of your throat, and are still able to sit on the side of the boat from your own power?
Maybe it's not because " but I was amazed NC, at how many suicide attempts via shooting oneself on the mouth, FAILED. It is indeed possible, he shot himself, and retained mobility."
Maybe it's because the gun was "imaginary"?
What cha think?
smirk
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| | | 411 | Tree
ID: 543262512 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 15:36
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Don't kid yourself...foreign governments already can and will do this for much less.
obviously. we saw it a couple years back with those three kids who were hiking in Iran.
If we, as a nation, want a leg to stand on when another country detains our citizens without a fair trail, we can't sit here and do it ourselves. we need to continue to have the upper hand and be the "good guys" if we want to help keep our citizens safe when they are elsewhere.
If the US government had enough proof that myself or my family were terrorists and planted IED devices...have at it. This is an extraordinary event...there is very little risk of the government overreaching.
you have a lot of faith in a government that just last week ARRESTED THE WRONG MAN IN WHAT WAS BASICALLY AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON OUR PRESIDENT.
what if that was you? what if, instead of detaining you for just a few days they detained you indefinitely?
you'd be ok with being detained indefinitely for something you didn't do?
not me man, not me. which is why i'll fight it now instead of later, because Martin Niemoller had it right.
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| | | 412 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 15:40
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"we saw it a couple years back with those three kids who were hiking in Iran. "
They were not kids, they were adults, calling them kids is a way to make Iran's action seem more extreme, even though you likely did it unconsciously.
Don't get me wrong, Iran is extreme enough on many issues.
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| | | 413 | Tree
ID: 543262512 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 15:47
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They were not kids, they were adults, calling them kids is a way to make Iran's action seem more extreme, even though you likely did it unconsciously.
fair enough. although it wasn't unconscious, but rather a mistake. They're actually older than i thought - i thought they were in their early 20s, which to me, is a "kid".
that being said, my point is the same. If the US can start detaining people in such a manner, we don't have a leg to stand on whether other countries do it.
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| | | 414 | Tree
ID: 293132515 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 16:13
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going back to the nonsense in 386 and 388...
...and all the mis information included.
such as:
The Homeland Security Secretary replied that the Saudi in question had not been on a watch list prior to the bombings and was never really a person of interest in the case. “Because he was being interviewed, he was at that point put on a watch list,” Napolitano added. “And then when it was quickly determined he had nothing to do with the bombing, the watch listing status was removed.”
As if all this weren’t complicated enough, a number of news outlets have reported that there is a second Saudi man in Boston, unrelated to the student, who was taken into custody when he showed up at a port to retrieve a package, and a routine check showed he had overstayed his visa.
That’s the Saudi who is subject to deportation. The student who was caught in the bomb blast is not.
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| | | 415 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 16:54
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Brazil 1985 movie predicting the future?
Brazil clip
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| | | 416 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 16:58
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Well put together "collage" of strange anomalies about the bombing.
likely some are just incorrect conjecture but food for thought.
link
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| | | 417 | Tree
ID: 543262512 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 17:12
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i think that was previously posted. much that can be debunked (like the naked guy) has been debunked. things like why the windows exploded outward is also easily explained by science.
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| | | 418 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 17:59
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From the link in #389:
When Russia crushed the Chechen rebellion, the fulcrum of Islamist rebellion moved to Dagestan. Today, many people say that local power struggles, a poor economic climate and elements of basic banditry are fueling the simmering insurgency in Dagestan, apart from grander Islamist or separatist aims.
This passage is really a reality check into the greater Caucasus instability that some want to generically term an Islamist rebellion. One has only to look at the Georgia/South Ossetia/Abkhazia situation to understand that the religious conflicts are now, and have been historically, only one component of the Caucasian instability, even when wrapped in the overreaching term of jihad. Radical salifists are able to make inroads with a young, restless, poverty-stricken population who feel ignored by Moscow, but that's not a result of a comittment to religious ideology as much as a result of the conditions in those regions. If Dagestan or Chechnya had the oil fields of Baku, not to mention over 20 years of independence from Moscow, you'd likely see the relative stability of Azerbaijan.
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| | | 419 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 18:02
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That's why I said some of it was likely incorrect conjecture.
I am mostly intrigued by the "craft" private security with the black back packs, (that the govt refuses to acknowledge) that have patches on the back pack that match the back pack we were shown by the govt.
And we were told the back pack was black, (Matching perfectly the Craft packs) but the suspect #2 back pack was white?
Or did they forget to tell us about the white one?
link
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| | | 420 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 18:11
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white back pack
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| | | 421 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 19:22
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Nerve#408
Where your screed beaks down is that Saudi Wahabi islam is the radical kind, and the Saudis are the ones on a decades long building spree to spread the Wahabi version of Islam.
I totally get that there is a world of difference between a muslim sitting in a cafe in Dubai, or the UAE, or Lebanon, or the typical [quite pro-western worldview] student in Iran...
...and a Yemeni tent dweller living on $100 a year and led around by the nose by some crazy imam.
That difference is what do they actually teach at your mosque and was the mosque built and stocked by Saudi Wahabi ideology, or some other flavor of salafist 'cut-their-heads-off-and-slay-the-infidel' islam.
If it turns out suspect#1 cut off the head of his Boston buddies will you still be telling me about those urbane Gucci wearin' dudes in the world's tallest skyscraper and how great they are? So what?
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| | | 422 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 19:39
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Yahoo News telling the same 'baffle-and-confuse-the-public' BS story as #414.
Oh, there were several Saudis there and some were more deport-worthy than others and they were all cleared, and they were all just innocently running away, and this one is getting confused with that one and they were all officially cleared, and this great reporter over here already regurgitated the administration cover story so please move along. BTW, we won't tell you the name of the 'innocent' man to protect his innocence so you wouldn't be interested anyway since he's innocent and all that stuff.
Except it was Osama Bin Laden's son, the one he hand-picked to run his terrorism worldwide after his favorite son for that purpose was killed. Standing 50 feet away from the blast.
Which is as interesting a coincidence as you are ever gonna get in your lifetime.
If you really don't want a media which mentions a 'little' detail like that, so you can remain blissfully ignorant, you already have it. Smiles everyone!
The picture of him in a hospital bed being visited by a smiling laughing Michele Obama has the average viewer so deep in cognitive dissonance and denial their occular nerves aren't even reporting the signal.
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| | | 423 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 19:57
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will you still be telling me about those urbane Gucci wearin' dudes in the world's tallest skyscraper and how great they are? So what?
Where did I say they were great? I just said they are not all blood thirsty bombers as you would have us believe.
Except it was Osama Bin Laden's son, the one he hand-picked to run his terrorism worldwide after his favorite son for that purpose was killed. Standing 50 feet away from the blast.
Evidence please? What is your evidence? looks like false information to me to make the person stupid enough to believe it run his mouth about it to discredit conspiracy theory.
There is a lot of disinformation floating around. I mean really what fool would believe Osama Bin Ladin's son set off bombs at the Boston marathon and then posed with Michele Obama while she visited him in the hospital.
Only a fool would repeat that scenario. But if I guess if you hate Obama enough you might fall for that trick.
The big guys, with Craft badges (navy seal, black water uniforms), ear plugs and black packs exactly like the ones that blew up (Who the government refuses to talk about) that is the more logical culprit if there is one.
Osama Bin Ladin's son? Please
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| | | 424 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:03
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The witchcraft defense. If it's too terrible to contemplate it is ipso facto untrue.
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| | | 425 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:05
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I'm fond of the "he was running away from the bombing!" claim as some sort of evidence of wrongdoing, myself.
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| | | 426 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:15
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The witchcraft defense. If it's too terrible to contemplate it is ipso facto untrue.
Are you so delusional you think Michele Obama would go visit Bin Ladin's son after he set off bombs at the marathon???
Really?
Are you working for the CIA?
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| | | 427 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:23
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The official version of events isn't much better btw.
So either way, the nomenclatura of wahabi salafism was standing right there.
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| | | 428 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:26
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Nerve
I'm not saying she couldn't have been just walking thru the hospital halls visiting all bombing survivors there.
That these Saudis in rabidly Wahabi clans breeze in and out of America is just shocking.
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| | | 429 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:30
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In fact the fact that salafist imams instruct their operatives to live off the welfare of their host countries, as was the case of the bomber family, and we let them is just obscene.
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| | | 430 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:47
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Look what you just did. Step back and look.
You implied earlier that Michele Obama specifically visited Bin Ladin's son in the hospital after he (you imply) probably actually did the bombing.
Then you say maybe she was just visiting all the victims in the hospital and happened to walk into his room, which even if true would be completely harmless.
To which I can only ask, did you get a hold of a bad batch of LSD in your younger days?
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| | | 431 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 21:12
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You have to weigh it all.
I suggest you focus on the 'terrorism allowed' angle and less on, 'muslims are great guys so the islam angle is insignificant here'.
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| | | 432 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 21:18
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And why would his views be any different than Morsi's, for whom the Obamas are the greatest of allies? On the same page.
And yes, reality is psychedelic where the Obamas are concerned.
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| | | 433 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 21:26
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You hear that, nerve? Ignore your own experience and concentrate more on Obama allowing this to happen.
Oh, and have some kool-aid. Its delicious.
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| | | 434 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 21:45
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Also, this 'he didn't have a gun so he couldn't have shot himself in the neck thing, while true, is rather insignificant compared to the other inconsistencies in the official version of events. Posted somewhere in here is the video of them closing in on the boat. Sounded like 200 shots fired. It's amazing he survived it at all. Not surprising he took one in the neck.
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| | | 435 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 22:23
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Not surprising he took one in the neck.
Agreed but...
We were told (By the police) he had a gun
We were told (By the police) he shot himself by placing a gun in his mouth and shooting himself in the throat.
We were told, (By photographic evidence) even though he shot himself in the mouth/throat he was able to climb out to the boat unaided.
Now we are told he didn't have a gun. (By the government)
He didn't shot himself in the mouth. (obviously without a gun)
We were told a black back pack contained the bomb. Yet we see photos of the suspect with a white back pack on.
We were told 2 days earlier they had "A" suspect in custody, were arraigning him at the court house, 5PM news conference. 1 hour before, no one in custody, cancel news conference and everyone clear the court house due to threats. (but maybe their cover was blown) start Over with new suspect.
But you go ahead and work out your story line about how it's all the Muslims fault in concert with the Obamas.
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| | | 436 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 23:00
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I suggest you focus on the 'terrorism allowed' angle and less on, 'muslims are great guys so the islam angle is insignificant here'
I suggest you focus on not putting words in peoples' mouths. Nobody said that. Not even close. Comments like these are merely a distraction from the litany of things thrown against the wall to see what sticks.
Here's what sticks. There's a level of Islamophobia that prohibits any rational thought process. We all know that there's a faction of Muslims who are intent on terrorist acts against Western culture. We also know that if the vast majority, or even a significant minority of Muslims were committed to violent jihad in this country, there would be a Boston Marathon bombing, a mall bombing, a sports arena bombing, a supermarket bombing etc, on a daily basis.
But the reality is that Muslim acts of terrorism in this country have been extremely rare, relatively speaking, because most Muslims don't subscribe to this ideology. Yet, in your quest to demonize all Muslims, in your own words,
It could have been prevented and the early warning showed you where you were going wrong
the suggestion is that a 'final solution' is in order to prevent us from going wrong.
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| | | 437 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 23:25
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#391... Exactly what I predicted. But people in this country do not care...give the US citizen his rights. One of the first thing the gov should have done is revoke his false citizenship.
Thus is paved, the road to fascism.
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| | | 438 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 00:20
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PV
the suggestion is that a 'final solution' is in order to prevent us from going wrong.
That is either a hallucination you are experiencing or you have sinister intentions toward me. No functionally literate and sane english speaking person could derive that from what I have posted.
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| | | 439 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 08:32
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Nerve,
At this point in the story, do you feel that what is being reported is correct and the police are trying to cover up what happened. Or journalists are guessing or using "sources" that are guessing and reporting it as news? I have a hard time going the conspiracy route when the news reports have been so glaring wrong multiple, multiple times. The need to be the first to report has drastically reduced the need to be correct. I think the industry is starting to realize that being first, but wrong, isn't a good long-term plan. Sure, it might get you instant ratings, but overtime people will stop tuning in as they realize that you are often not right. At least that is what I hope will happen.
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| | | 440 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 09:37
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Find it pretty duplicitous that god forbid we remove rights from terrorists and this will lead to "fascism" or everyone losing these rights. Yet you are in favor of gun registration...and think there is no possible way that would ever lead to confiscation?
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| | | 441 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 09:42
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At this point it is not just the media that seems to change these stories. The police, government, etc...are releasing statements and then directly contradicting these statements in future official statements. I am generally not a conspiracy theory person but it does really seem we have a government that is trying to control the narrative. We generally get one story from the people on the ground (police, direct witness) and then we get a whole new story after the fact from government officials. Sort of scary.
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| | | 442 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 09:45
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No functionally literate and sane english speaking person could derive that from what I have posted.
Perhaps it would be more productive to examine how someone could derive such a conclusion from your posts instead of lashing out with a personal attack on my intelligence and sanity.
That you would accuse me of having sinister intentions towards you is a hallucination. Your campaign to paint Muslims as those who should be feared and mistrusted; who are intent on world domination and enslaving and slitting the throats of non-Muslims; who are the main component and antagonist of the inevitable World War III is well documented in this forum.
As a big fan of Pamela Geller, who you decided deserved her own thread because One day you will look back and realize it was her early on leading the war for your personal survival, it might be enlightening to see what some of her other fervent fans have to say in the comments section of Atlas Shrugs
>So let me get this straight. Some snot-nosed-jihadi-wannabe says "BOO" and we have to jump, how high? So sick of these f****g Muslims.
Time to retaliate, big time. Time to take it back to them and make them squirm. Time to make them so uncomfortable that they don't have time to do the jihad two step.
>Got to start rounding them up, get them out. What's the government waiting for?
>The adherents to the example of the "prophet Mohammad" do not like being exposed and especially not challenged. And loyal, lying, genocidal adherents they are, too. Adherents like CAIR, ISNA and the MSA.
I predict many more and far worse massacres by Islam on our soil. With the Obama administration befriending Sharia and aiding and abetting our mortal enemy, the Muslim Brotherhood worldwide, what different outcome could be expected?
When will the West get it? Islam is an ideology of hate, violence, and extermination for non-believers.
Given these comments, which are typical on Geller's and similar sites Boldwin supports, one doesn't have to wonder what kind of solution they seek. They spell it out in no uncertain terms:
Got to start rounding them up
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| | | 443 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 10:35
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and think there is no possible way that would ever lead to confiscation
Yes. Just like car registration hasn't led to car confiscation. Nor has gun registration in other countries involved gun confiscation.
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| | | 444 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 12:19
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Gun registration in the UK was not the precursor to gun confiscation?
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| | | 445 | Tree
ID: 133262611 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 12:26
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every time someone starts painting all Muslims as bad, and we get that "round 'em up" attitude, i can only think of Martin Niemöller.
"First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me."
i firmly believe we, the United States, are the good guys, and we have to do things the right way, even if other's aren't. i believe that with every fiber of my body.
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| | | 446 | Boldwin
ID: 13342611 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 12:45
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No one writing anything I endorse is talking about rounding up the 'human shield' moderate muslims in order to get at the radical muslims.
Nevertheless the koran is every bit as radical as the radicals. They have the literal interpretation and are acting on it.
The 'tolerant' ones are the ones who will round up all the religious once they get a full taste of jihad. They've been trying to lump all religious people together. They've been the ones calling me taliban for years. They are the anti-religious.
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| | | 447 | Nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 17:28
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Chicago The police, government, etc...are releasing statements and then directly contradicting these statements in future official statements.
I completely agree and that is also the answer IMHO to Frick's question in 439.
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| | | 448 | Boldwin
ID: 13342611 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 19:51
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Ever notice that the same people so worried we'll lump moderate muslims in with the radical muslims think it's a hoot to call Christians 'the taliban'?
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| | | 449 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 21:32
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Not calling Christians the Taliban Calling wingnut extremist Christians, the American-Taliban.
Gun registration, does not preclude your buying a gun and therefore, does not infringe upon your right to by a gun.
Limiting magazine capacity, does not interfere with your ability to buy a gun.
Banning assault rifle, which was not in the senate bill, does not preclude your buying A gun.
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| | | 450 | Boldwin
ID: 13342611 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 21:37
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Yeah, well your idea of extremist is anyone who believes in the constitution and the majority of the republican party, so the word has no valid meaning when you use it.
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| | | 451 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 22:02
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I've never called any Christians the Taliban, but I understand why you'd want to change the subject.
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| | | 452 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 23:00
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You have zero grasp Boldwin, on the true implications of the Constitution. Like FOX news, you'd gleefully cast it aside, when it becomes inconvenient.
What two planetary groups, have made the strongest move against sexual equality?
1) Islamic extremists and 2) the American rightwing.
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| | | 453 | Nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Sat, Apr 27, 2013, 04:45
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I think you are the one who doesn't understand the constitution Sarge but you are actually discussing the topic in the wrong thread.
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| | | 454 | Boldwin
ID: 33433115 Wed, May 01, 2013, 17:39
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PJMedia:Update: The third suspect has been identified as Robel Phillipos, an American citizen. The affadavit alleges that the three may not have had prior knowledge of the bombing, but they helped the bombers dispose of evidence afterward — without being asked to do so. They threw away the younger bomber’s backpack after learning that he was a suspect.
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| | | 455 | Boldwin
ID: 6438138 Mon, May 13, 2013, 10:04
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Former Sen. Joe Lieberman and Committee Chairman Mike McCaul (R-Texas), A former federal counterterrorism prosecutor, in discussions at the House Homeland Security CommitteeLieberman also opined that the information-sharing reforms enacted after 9/11 may have made it more difficult “to separate the wheat from the chaff, to identify the most important dots on the board so that they can be connected.”
“We’ve still got to ask, and I hope you will, shouldn’t the fact that the first notice of Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s possible radicalization came to us from a very uncommon source, Russian intelligence, have marked the case for special handling by our government and guaranteed that this file would not be closed? Were the original FBI interviews of Tamerlan Tsarnaev adequate to determine whether he was likely to radicalize to violent Islamist extremism?” he said.
Lieberman also wasn’t so quick to shift some blame away from the Boston mosque that claimed it threw the elder Tsarnaev brother out for radical ranting.
“The leaders and the members of the Boston mosque that threw Tamerlan out because of his extreme views could have said something to the police and even done something to counter his radicalization... ---
Committee Chairman Mike McCaul (R-Texas) noted “he was on our radar screen, and then he was off.”
“What remains unanswered is whether this information was shared between federal agencies and state and local officials,” he added, referencing the timeline of Tsarnaev leaving the country for Dagestan last year after warnings about his radicalization.
“Equally concerning is the emerging narrative which downplays the spread of the global jihadist movement,” McCaul said. “From the attack in Fort Hood to the tragedy at Benghazi, the Boston bombings are our most recent reminder that we all must — we must call terrorism really for what it is in order to confront it. You cannot defeat an enemy you refuse to acknowledge.”
A former federal counterterrorism prosecutor, McCaul said he “was disturbed in the days FOLLOWING the attack to read that some officials had closed the case on whether there was a foreign connection when the FBI had just begun its investigation… this rush to judgment, in my view, was premature and irresponsible.” ---
“It was self-evidently and publicly violent Islamist extremism that led to the attacks on us on 9/11/01 and didn’t take detective work. Osama bin Laden and everybody else declared that to be the purpose. They want to bring down America and our civilization. And I — you know, it’s the old Chinese wisdom a millennia ago: The first thing you gotta know in war is your enemy is. And you have to call it by its name,” Lieberman said.
“What is gained by the president’s refusal to appropriately describe jihad as expressed by radical Islamist extremists as their motivation for attacking the United States and other free nations?” Perry said.
“Well, I don’t know. In other words, this is a debate that I had over the years in my time in the Senate and particularly with this administration,” Lieberman responded.
“The sad fact is today that most terrorists that we’re dealing with in America are inspired by this violent Islamic extremist ideology,” he added. “You have to recognize that to deal with them.” To me that fact that they pre-emptively shut down the investigation into foreign connections at the start of the investigation is the smoking gun that reveals that this was an allowed attack and they are covering their tracks, [has anyone checked if Jamie Gorlick the "mistress of disaster" was nearby?]
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| | | 456 | Boldwin
ID: 6438138 Mon, May 13, 2013, 10:09
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the Saudi government also denied an entry visa to Tsarnaev in Dec. 2011 when he purportedly sought to take the Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca, the individual claimed. This is the first time that alleged plans to visit Islam’s most holy city have been divulged.
The source went on to say that, although the letter, which purportedly came from the Saudi Ministry of Interior, did not name Boston specifically, it did cite Tsarnaev and it was “very specific.” The Saudi official also told the outlet that the notice warned the U.S. government that “something was going to happen in a major U.S. city.”
According to the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, the information-gathering was not fully developed, but the Middle Eastern nation allegedly sent it to offer help to the U.S. government. In addition to sounding the alarm, the document was also apparently intended to urge U.S. officials to search packages that reached Tsarnaev in the mail (to see if they contained bomb-making materials). - The Blaze, yes I know, you do not like the source. The more that is learned, the less likely it seems that they 'just lost track' of Tamerlan in the sea of too many people needing investigation.
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| | | 458 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, May 13, 2013, 20:30
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why so much attention on the Boston bombing, and 4 dead; and so little on the West, TX explosion, that killed and injured MANY more?
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| | | 459 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Mon, May 13, 2013, 20:48
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Violent Islamist jihad is sexy.
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| | | 460 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, May 13, 2013, 21:27
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and ignoring safety regulations and Homeland Security directives in pursuit of profit dollars...well, thats just "Murica".
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| | | 462 | Boldwin
ID: 594551321 Mon, May 13, 2013, 23:08
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Catch up, Sarge. MITH posted the EMT arrested for this three days ago in the West Texas thread. You can stop lecturing us on the beauty of federal safety regulations already.
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| | | 463 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, May 13, 2013, 23:21
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EMT story in Midland paper.
Catch up indeed, sarge. Note that both MITH's post and the story above specifically disclaims a link of the EMT to the actual blast...
You probably want to avoid getting news updates from a guy who gleans his news from the comments section of right wing propaganda sites...
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| | | 464 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Tue, May 14, 2013, 09:13
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Why is the Jody Arias case getting so much coverage? She killed her boyfriend. That is a sad story, but I doubt there are less than 100 similar cases currently going through the system at the moment. But, since she is young, white, somewhat attractive it is getting wall to wall coverage. Blame the public who tune in.
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| | | 465 | Tree
ID: 20412149 Tue, May 14, 2013, 10:12
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Why is the Jody Arias case getting so much coverage?
because kinky female murderers are sexy.
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| | | 466 | Tree
ID: 20412149 Tue, May 14, 2013, 10:13
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MITH posted the EMT arrested for this three days ago in the West Texas thread. You can stop lecturing us on the beauty of federal safety regulations already.
so, do you actually READ any articles you link to? or keep up with current events?
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| | | 467 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, May 15, 2013, 00:05
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Oh I know the answer to that one Tree...in a word? No. :)
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| | | 469 | nerveclinic
ID: 8832812 Mon, Oct 28, 2013, 03:25
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From the NYT
Deadly End to F.B.I. Queries on Tsarnaev and a Triple Killing
That question deepened early Wednesday when a man in Orlando, Fla., who was being interviewed by at least one F.B.I. agent and other investigators, implicated himself and Mr. Tsarnaev in those murders, and then was fatally shot after he apparently tried to assault the agent, two senior law enforcement officials said.
It just get's stranger and stranger...
Times Article...
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| | | 471 | weykool
ID: 472331022 Thu, Apr 09, 2015, 21:03
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An American criminal trial is designed to assess guilt and administer justice, not to look for truth — and truth and justice are not synonymous.
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