Forum: pol
Page 371
Subject: "Compassion" Fascists


  Posted by: Baldwin - [4261155] Wed, Aug 01, 10:29

full story here

The department came knocking at the door to their home in the form of a "home visitor" sent by the hospital when the Howards' first baby girl was born with terminal health problems.

According to the Massachusetts News, the "home visitor" was a social worker who found the home in disorder. The kitchen was in the process of being remodeled. Over Heidi's objections and without identifying the true purpose of the call, the "home visitor" opened closets and quizzed her about her marriage. Then, she filed a report about the messy home and "stress" in the family – stress undoubtedly caused by having a dying child.

Their situation was complicated by a restraining order that Heidi says she was blackmailed into filing: the DSS allegedly threatened to remove their two boys, 10-year-old Christopher and five-year-old Ethan, if Heidi did not register a complaint against her husband even though she insisted no abuse had occurred. With a restraining order on file, the DSS seized the boys in November 1999.

In February 2001, another daughter, Jessica, was seized from her nursing mother on the grounds that the other children were already in DSS custody. No court hearing has been held on the two boys. Chester Darling, an attorney for the Howards, has called the DSS "an agency ... that can kidnap children almost with impunity."

The Howards' case is not unique. Cases like theirs are occurring more frequently because state agencies now have a financial incentive to separate children from their parents and put them up for adoption.

The Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997 is explicit about the rewards. Under a section called "Adoption Incentive Payment," the act says a state can receive as much as $4,000 for adopting-out a child.

Planning any remodeling? Would you sign absolutely anything if the state told you they would take your kids otherwise? Would you be upset if your child was diagnosed with a terminal illness? Do you have kids? Well at least temporarily you do.
 
1Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Aug 01, 10:46
Read the same story....I feel pretty comfortable in believing that you're not getting the full story here.

I deal with this sort of thing on a fairly regular basis (going to this afternoon, in fact) and the much more common problem is that the social workers are too wedded to the idea of "family re-unification" at the expense of the child's welfare - rather than being overly gung-ho in removing children.

These people (usually poorly trained and prepared for their work) are in a damned if they do - damned if they don't position just about every day. If they act too fast to remove a child from a dangerous situation they're lambasted as being facists. If they move too slow - they're the first to be blamed, as everyone asks "Where were the child protection workers - Why did they ignore all the warning signs, etc., etc, etc.
 
2Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Aug 01, 10:55
Sorry but I have read waaaaay to many similar stories as well as having known of specific cases personally to believe your facile dismissal.

It is the case that those who stand firmly on the side of individual's rights vs state power will draw attention to these cases while those in favor of a viril fatherland running our lives all tend to draw the wrong conclusion from those cases where parents abuse their kids.
 
3Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Aug 01, 11:09
I agree with you on the 'damned if you do'-'damned if you don't' nature of the social worker in these cases.

Unfortunately it is the 'big government' loving media that put them there. Who would want to be the social worker who didn't pull 'little baby x' from that less than ideal parent?

I can tell you for sure that someone is going to be damaged when kids are kidnapped by the state. I have known a set of parents completely destroyed in every way by this assault. You on the otherhand can't guarantee the surrogate parents will do any better.
 
4Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 1279111
      Wed, Aug 01, 11:22
Baldwin, I don't think the media has anything to do with the social worker's handling of cases like this. That's far too much of an anti-liberal slap.

That said, I agree with you nearly 100% on this issue. When it comes to the "protection" of children, state agencies and everyone else lose all perspective. Parents lose all rights and are presumed to be under suspicion simply because of unproved allegations. Parental behavior is overanalyzed to show mistreatment all too often.

As I mentioned in the Megan's Law thread, common sense just goes out the window when it comes to children. Taking a child away from a family because they are "too fat" for example is a strong symptom of a government which goes too far.

pd
 
5Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Aug 01, 12:04
I'm for the rights of individuals from intrusion of the government every time.

However, just as this strong leaning towards individual rights leads me to oppose abortion (because of the "rights" that I believe the fetus possesses - it also leads me to sometimes sacrifice the parents "rights" to raise their children without interference from society in favor of protecting the rights of children who can't protect themselves.

As in most things, it's a trade-off. People who are "pro-choice" are pro-individual right as well. For me, it's all about which individual's rights need the most (of any) protection. Of course, there are occurences when over-zealous people go awry - that always occurs in any area of law (see: government intrusion on the idvidual's right ot be left alone). But, i don't see any reason to sacrifice the rights and protections of children based on bad cases. It's these bad cases that have always made for bad law.
 
6Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28059111
      Wed, Aug 01, 18:54
Myboyjack I don't see the destruction of families over unfounded allegations to be pro-child. Neither do I see anything pro-child about the taking away of parental rights over the flimsiest of evidence. Destroying a child's world in order to save it is not, in my mind, a first step.

A child needs, more than anything, to feel safe. How safe do you think they feel after government storm troopers take him away from his parents? How about when well-meaning counselors, without any shred of evidence, ask if the child was ever forced to perform sexual acts? The list goes on.

This isn't about abortion. It's about a bureaucracy forcing it's own quick judgement onto families, forcing parents to prove their innocence .

You're right: It's about the children. So let's think about how the children will fare when not only we fear the worst, but act upon it in every case.

pd
 
7Myboyjack
      ID: 48735119
      Wed, Aug 01, 20:04
PD, Obviously "the destruction of families over unfounded allegations" is not pro-child. So what? Sexual and physical abuse by parents while the rest of sit on our hands isn't "pro-child" either. I'm sure we could all agree that both are to be avoided. The problem over and over again in real life (as opposed to sensationalized stories in the media that are, believe me, very rare in real life), however, is not that the rights of families (i.e. parents) are trod upon; it's that no one usually there no compelling reason in the system to treat the child as an idivdual with rights equal to the parents'.

Honestly, I just got out of DNA (that's Dependency, Neglect and Abuse ) Court. The disgusting crud that are allowed to raise children is so totally depressing that it could bring one to tears. Time and time again the interest of "family re-unification" trumps the needs of children to remain out of some of the worst situations and environments that you could possibly imagine. It physically sickens me to listen to social workers present plans to the COurt to reunite children with parents who sexually molested them or physcially tortured them. Anyone reading this know what a "spiral fracture" is? I had three of them today - and two of the children who suffered them will eventually be forced to live with the person who gave it to them.

It's inbittering - so I'm sorry if I really don't think, in the big picture, that the occasional over zealous social worker/ "government storm-trooper" is the REAL problem. The real problem, IMO, is the systematic indifference that the system and society show to the rights of the children in the other 999/1000 cases.

I'm ranting semi-coherently, and I'm not sure this will post. Sorry, it's been a looooooong day.
 
8Baldwin
      ID: 0749120
      Wed, Aug 01, 21:40
As with any crime it is wise to follow the money.

In theory placing children in foster care is a last resort. However, this is not how the funding works.

states will continue to get federal money for each child they have in foster care, regardless of how many or how long! But money for Preservation and Reunification services are "capped". Actually, Family Preservation funding was TOTALLY eliminated under the ASFA (Adoption & Safe Families Act).



 
9Baldwin
      ID: 0749120
      Wed, Aug 01, 21:49
Now let's follow the money from the kidnapper to the keeper of the stolen property.

One child wharehouser of these stolen kids said...
""With one more child (adopted or foster) with a special needs subsidy I would bring home more than I am now working.""

In other words...
Imagine that!! Our government doling out MORE CASH for WAREHOUSING three children than a person can make working full time! Doesn't this woman stop to think that the child might actually COST SOMETHING to raise??? Or is she assuming that all that money goes into her pocket?

Not only does our government pay a person more to warehouse three children than to work a full time job, they DON'T COUNT IT AS INCOME, so the warehouser qualifies for all the same services (and more) that a broke, unemployed Mother would qualify for! Traditional parents find it almost impossible to get these services to raise their own children, and if they were to apply for welfare, they'd get pennies plus be forced to place their children in day care and get a job. Yet, this Child Warehouser gets a huge government check plus an abundance of services so she can sit on her rear, raising OTHER PEOPLE'S children!



 
10Baldwin
      ID: 0749120
      Wed, Aug 01, 21:57
There are other financial considerations. I know a girl who set up her foster mother (her fathers second wife) with a phony physical abuse charge. I know it was phony because she told my son she was going to do it before the fact.

After losing tens of thousands trying to keep this ingrate her parents finally gave up.

Update? She now feels she was aquired by her new foster family to serve as a free maid service. Too sad to be funny, too sick to be fair return for her treacherous treatment of her biological father.
 
11Baldwin
      ID: 0749120
      Wed, Aug 01, 22:10
PD

Here's why that is a fair depiction of the media.

(Myboyjack) Yes tough cases make bad law but there are a number of tough cases that can and do come up in this area.
1)There are cases of legitimate child abuse from biological parents.
2)There are cases of the government stealing kids from innocent parents.
3)There are cases of children abused by the foster families.

While the first pulls towards greater government intervention the second two pull against it.

Permdude which of these tough cases does the media sensationalize? Clearly they favor more and more government intervention.
 
12James K Polk
      ID: 29430182
      Wed, Aug 01, 22:25
Baldwin, you are wrong. The media does not "sensationalize" any of those three categories, unless you consider simply covering the stories to be "sensationalizing." And the simple fact is, while there may be many cases of your categories 2 and 3, there are FAR, FAR more cases of your category 1.

Actually, in terms of media coverage, categories 1 and 3 are virtually the same. Kids being abused by the people who are supposed to be caring for them.

Category 2, however, requires a major judgment call. In just about any case where an agency removes a child from a home, the parents are going say they were unjustly accused. But do you really want the media to go beyond the facts of the case and start making judgments on who is right?

Now, if there's a court case over a child being removed from a home, you can bet that the media will be all over it. Or if there's a tip that a CPS agency is overstepping its bounds. We've done stories here on both those issues, and I've read countless others.

Take a look at this Google search on "Wenatchee sex ring trials" and see if you still believe the media won't report on unjustly accused parents. Tri-City Herald, Seattle P-I, Seattle Times, Time Magazine ... I can point you to others, but you'll find those on just the first page.
 
13Baldwin
      ID: 0749120
      Wed, Aug 01, 23:09
Ok I need to deal with the argument 'the destruction of innocent families over unfounded allegations...is believe me, very rare in real life...'.

In 1998 Alaska had one report of abuse for every twelve children in the state. Do you feel it's possible one in twelve kids in Alaska should be taken from their parents? Some social workers believe one in four children is sexually abused as children. This is preposterous but some social workers believe and act on this belief. It is reasuring to hear from Myboyjack that some social workers still believe in reuniting families however what about the social workers who what about the ones who have such a jaundiced view of families.

Once one of these frequently bogus reports is filed what is the stance of the state? The governor of Iowa reportedly gave this advice to social workers in his state...'When in doubt work to take them out'.

Once these agencies get activated by these false reports don't think it will do you any good to protest your true innocence. The only route to getting your kids back from these agencies is to admit to abuse that does not exist in the first place, the truth be damned. Read carefully the words of the CPS chief counsel...Here

Exacerbating the problem is that the taking of kids from innocent parents is so horrific that people want desperately to believe that such a thing could never happen to them so they wrongfully assume this only happens to guilty people.
 
14Baldwin
      ID: 0749120
      Wed, Aug 01, 23:57
J Polk

1)This is a local media problem as local coverage of sensational cases puts direct pressure on the local state's DCFS. I have monitored the Chicago news media for years watching for this and I can tell you a case of a returned child being killed by an abusive parent is good for a week's scandal putting very real pressure on the DCFS to never never err on the side of the parent. I do not see similar outrage from the media over cases 2 and 3. The media's remorseful backfilling damage control over their failed coverage of the Wannatchee case not withstanding.

2)I REALLY want the media to report the numbers of children taken by the state (200,000 yearly!) and to put due pressure on the DCFS to never take a child without at a minimum following these guidelines.

I want absolute proof of abuse before the state takes action.

I want the state to never take a child merely based on the prediction of future harm without the establishment of past harm.

I want the state to never extort a false admission from a parent as the price for seeing their kids.

I want the foster environment to be safer than the environment they were taken from, which is not the case now.

Now, if there's a court case over a child being removed from a home, you can bet that the media will be all over it. - Polk

With 200,000 kids taken by the state a year I think I will take that bet.
 
15Seattle Zen
      ID: 37241120
      Thu, Aug 02, 01:12
I'm with Baldwin, Mr. Prez. The Seattle Times and P-I only spoke up after it was obvious that the Wenachee sex ring witchhunt was one of the State's most egregious and atrocious miscarriages of justice. I remember that the local Wenachee paper was in 100% support of the trials during the whole mess and for quite a while after the alarms had been rung.

I'm sure it has been done, but someone needs to get some numbers on the annual incomes of the average family that has their kid removed. I think that a lot of social workers think poverty is akin to abuse and that is very frightening.

Myboyjack, how many children from "pillars of the community" families have you saved from abuse? Any "Senator's sons"?
 
16James K Polk
      ID: 29430182
      Thu, Aug 02, 01:19
First of all, I agree with you in your concern over good parents having their children taken away. I also know of cases involving people I know where this has happened.

However, I strongly disagree with you on your characterization of the media. There was no "remorseful backfilling damage control" over "failed coverage" of the Wenatchee case. Baldwin, you can't seriously believe that every instance of coverage where new information comes out is "failed coverage"! In the Wenatchee case, the media did not rush to try to convict the accused by assuming their guilt -- rather, the reports were on matters of fact: charges filed, denials of accusations, etc. And when questions began being raised, the media was a big part of uncovering exactly how these people had been jobbed. In fact, I would say that without the media, many (if not all) the accused would still be in jail. But they're not. They've all been released.

Secondly, as PD pointed out in post #4, it's not media coverage of a sensational case that puts pressure on CPS agencies to "never err on the side of the parent." That pressure happens automatically when a child they return to a parent is further abused or killed. If I were a CPS agent, I certainly wouldn't need a news story to make me feel bad about such a decision.

Really, I'm only trying to defend the media's role here. I'm not trying to say that there aren't problems with this nation's child protection system. Of course there are. And there are real problems with the ASFA -- something that we've reported on locally, matter of fact. But you yourself in this thread have provided a more likely culprit in what you see as an epidemic -- the legislation that guides child protection agencies in the first place. You can blame the media for a lot of things, but not for this problem.

As for your link in #13 -- of course that message sounds atrocious if you're assuming evil intent. And CPS Watch's interpretation may well be correct. But this also could have been part of an ongoing discussion about abuse that really happened.

It's good to support the rights of wrongly accused parents. It's good to come down hard on overzealous child "advocates." But be careful how far you go in championing reunification at all costs, because there are plenty of parents who have no business raising children.
 
17James K Polk
      ID: 29430182
      Thu, Aug 02, 01:41
Seattle Zen, you might be right about the Wenatchee paper. But if you are, and I'm looking for evidence of that online, it was only early on. The local paper was running anti-prosecution editorials while the trials were going on, and the plaintiffs did plenty of talking to their local paper when they started winning cases against the state -- something I really doubt they'd do if that same paper had been part and parcel to the witch hunt.

Anyway, I still stand by my statement that without the media diving into the case, those people would still be in jail. There was overwhelming media criticism of these investigations, from outlets far more credible than the "Wenatchee World."

First of all, there's not much you can report on besides the charges at hand before a trial starts. Everyone with vested interest in the case, including the sources you would need to debunk a charge like this, would be prohibited by lawyers from talking to the media. Even if you try to talk to people who simply know those who stand accused, it's hard to get anything at all, much less anything verifiable. Especially in a case of this magnitude. In that regard, the media's hands are tied.

But once information starts to come out, like Perez's strong-arm interrogation tactics, the media went to work. And while the prosecutions were going on, major organizations -- including CBS, CNN, NBC, the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post -- were weighing in against them. And I know that the P-I was among the first to begin the criticism.
 
18James K Polk
      ID: 29430182
      Thu, Aug 02, 02:15
Seattle Zen -- something about your comment on the Wenatchee World was ringing true, so I did some digging. What happened was that the World editorialized against "outside scrutiny and intervention" in the case. An odd stance, I admit, but I'm not sure it's right to say the paper supported the charges themselves.

In her updated "Wenatchee Report," which was used at the plaintiffs' trials IIRC, Kathryn Lyon discusses a couple of early editorials in the Wenatchee World.

"Mr. Warner went on to comment on the outside media coverage of the Wenatchee sex cases. This is no longer a system where justice is sought from juries of impartial citizens who fairly weigh the testimony and evidence. We are approaching a system where justice belongs
to those with the most effective public relations campaign, those whose friends gather the most signatures on petitions or are able to bring the most pressure to bear on politicians both sympathetic and timid.

Nevertheless Warner acknowledges as troublesome the fact that Perez lives with his chief witness and acknowledged that some stories are inconsistent, some seem too fantastic to believe. Video or audio recordings could answer many questions. And most certainly the Child Protective Services bureaucracy is a pathetic mess."

and ...

"Steve Lachowicz, The Wenatchee World's Assistant Managing Editor announced the position of the World on November 12, 1995, to print explicit and graphic descriptions of medical evidence, so they (the readers) can better evaluate the truth of various charges - those against both the alleged molesters and against the various media ... What's really terrorizing is that so many national journalists (and I am forced to use the term loosely) have failed to get so many of their facts straight, ignoring credible evidence of abuse presented in numerous trials ... The stream of twisted, one-sided reports might have our newsroom laughing every morning were we not so busy shaking our heads in depressed dismay at the conduct of some of our peers."

Certainly not the Wenatchee World's finest hour, but essentially what it was doing was railing against the perceived motivations of outside media. And there was, in fact, medical evidence of abuse presented at these trials. Despite the fact that I think these people were railroaded, largely because most of them were poorer and less educated, some of that evidence has yet to be debunked.

Anyway, it's certainly clear that the World was basically standing alone in media circles, as starting in 1995, the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, the Independent of London, Time, Newsweek, NBC Dateline, CNN and many other outlets ran seriously critical pieces on the investigations.
 
19Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Thu, Aug 02, 09:41
Baldwin A problem with your "follow the money" arguement is that the only people that actually profit personally from the removal of children from their homes (the foster parents) have NO ROLE in the removal. Follow the money somewhere else.

Also, when yo say that 1 in 12 childrn in Alaska were reportedly abused - I'm sure you know that that, in no way, means that those children were ever removed from their homes. This article/opinion piece you continue to site is incredible disingenuous in how it leaves out facts like that. It leavs out that fact, for instence, that social workers can't just storm into houses on a whim and remove children - they have to substatiate potential abuse first. It leaves out the fact that within the next 72 hours (and in my urisdiction, almost always the next day) a Court hearing with all parties (and their attorneys) and judicial approval is required to continue the removal. The article leaves out the facts presented before the judge which were, evidently, compelling enough to make out a case for continued removal.

SZ I'm not sure what your point was regarding the "pillars of community" comment??

Is your point that the "pillars" stay out of trouble better than others? I agree.

Is your point that the "senators' sons" have better access to legal advice and influence that help keep them from paying for their crimes the way that the rest of us would? No agruement from me on that either?

But so what? It would seem that you are arguing that the children of the privileged recieve less protection against abusive parents?? I haven't really noticed that, but I'll try and keep my eyes open the next time I'm at the polo club ;)

You guys continue to focus on the rights of parents, a though they were the primary concern. As long as you do that then any wrongful or hurtful activity by the government that impedes on parental rights is going to appear, to you, particularly egregious. If you shift your focus to the rights of the children not to be abused or hurt (either by their parents OR the government)then these cases take on a new light, I think.

It sucks that innocent people get accused of things they didn't do, get arrested, and spend time in jail, away from their families until they can post bond, and/or ultimately be found not guilty. Does this mean that we should, as Baldwin would suggest in the case of children, never arrest anyone until they are found guilty by a jury?
 
20Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 3571123
      Thu, Aug 02, 09:55
It's not an either/never, Myboyjack.

Personally, I favor a much higher standard of evidence in order to enter homes and conduct intrusive and probably destructive "intervention." It really is about the children.

It should be said that I hold social workers themselves in the highest possible light. I can't imagine any field in which there is a tighter emotional involvement, for smaller pay, than in social work. I don't question social workers' judgements in spite of this, however. I question the policies which allow thoughtless, destructive, and myopic behavior to flourish with such righteaous rhetoric.

I don't for a minute believe Baldwin's explanations for the reasons for what's going on, but he's accurately portrayed a real problem otherwise.

pd

 
21Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Aug 02, 11:21
No of course some can't see the true motivations at work.

We have had fousted on us what I will call the 'Cult of Victimology'.

We have well respected [in some circles] psychologists talking people into believing they were abused by their parents even tho they have no recollection of such events. We have college professors indoctintating the young into believing every husband is a power abusing rapist. Yes they do too believe the sexual power roles in marriage are akin to rape. We have educated people believing the ridiculous figure that one in four children are sexually abused.

Is it any wonder some some social workers are not inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the family?

Heck these compassion fascists believe marriage itself is an outdated flawed trap women have fallen into. Why are those who feel this way likely to give the benefit of the doubt to the family?

 
22Seattle Zen
      ID: 37241120
      Thu, Aug 02, 12:01
Mr. Prez. There were plenty of red flags that the media should have reported on before any trial even started.

I have a friend who is working on a law review article about the lack of competent counsel afforded the accused in Wenachee. The county budgeted $400,000 for the entire year's public defense. In Chelan county, they pay private firms to represent the indigent. When the "sex ring" cases came down, there were 10,000+ charges of child rape and over a dozen accused. Each of the accused had to have a separate counsel to avoid conflicts of interests.

In a normal year, $400,000 just covers the lawyer's costs of representing your standard assaults, DUIs, and Domestic Violence, etc... The county did not increase that amount when the "sex ring" trials started, so the attorneys were paid pennies. Many of the attorneys were totally unprepared for such a massive undertaking. Few of them were motivated to work long enough to provide adequate representation for such a major crime because they were paid a fixed amount so low that it probably would have violated minimum wage laws.

Had the press reported this and made a stink, perhaps a portion of this injustice would have been avoided.
 
23James K Polk
      ID: 355352418
      Thu, Aug 02, 20:11
That's interesting, SZ. I can't say for sure whether I've ever seen a story on that before. But considering that this was seven years ago, I'll be you can't say for sure that nobody reported this, either.

I do know that, consistent in many reports around that time, media outlets were pointing out that many of these people were poor and uneducated, and could not afford to hire their own defense attorneys. Not specifically the point you raise, but certainly covering the general issue. And as a matter of fact, it might have been impossible to report on those specific figures, because thoses costs might not have been public record at that time. Oftentimes a county's trial costs are not released until after a case is finished.

Whether that's true or not, with the benefit of hindsight, you will always be able to find a few angles that could have been handled differently. But I still say that the media played an important role in helping these people, and many actually did stand up for them even before the trials. Like I said before, there are a lot of things you can nail the media over, but I just don't think this is one of them.

Consider Spokane TV reporter Tom Grant, who was basically threatened by DSHS and labeled a child molester by sex-ring investigation supporters, after his critical coverage of what was happening in Wenatchee.
 
24Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Tue, Aug 07, 13:56
Strange this came up here. I was just visiting with my parents and they told me how a fellow church member had been unjustly arrested for sexual abuse. Basically, his daughter was commiserating with a classmate who was being sexually abused (and the teacher knew this). The teacher over-heard the conversation, and the daughter of my dad's friend said, "Yeah, I wish my daddy would leave my bedroom at night, too."

The teacher reported this quote to the authorities, who paid a visit to the home, and actually took the guy downtown under police custody (in front of his kids). The social worker on the scene (at the guy's house) threatened "Unless you start telling us the full story here, Mr. X, we're going to take these kids away from you right now."

It turns out that they live in a very small house, and the daughter's room is partially divided between a bedroom and a computer room. The dad sometimes stays at the computer after the daughter goes to bed. Thus, her quote that she wished he would sometimes leave her bedroom.

One father and family permanently scarred because of over-zealous police work. The whole thing could have been resolved by just asking the daughter what she meant at the time . . .

Others:
* The niece of an acquaintance had her children taken away for a couple of weeks. They had taken their kid to the doctor after he had fallen and bruised his head pretty bad. The doctor reported it as child abuse. No prior history, no problems since. But massive trauma to the family, obviously, who lost custody of their kids while the investigation was underway.

* The principle in my school accused my parents of child abuse when I was in 3rd grade. It turns out that I was being mentally traumatized, but that it was because of the actions of the teacher. Worse, it turns out that this particular teacher had a history of problems with kids (another classmate of mine had to be moved my very same year, and two others had been transferred in the previous 2 years because they couldn't handle her "teaching" style). Of course, the school district gave her tenure during the middle of these allegations and problems, and she's still teaching to this day. Sadly, the year after me, I knew another kid who had to be transferred out of her class as well. . . I can hope the teacher changed her ways after that, however, since I don't know of any further cases.

* I know of an ex-social worker from the other side of it, who basically said he gradually became desensitized to everything. You see so much garbage, that you start to lose your ability to exercise quality judgement. You start to presume guilt just because you've seen it too many times. . .

* My parents had a foster kid for a couple of years (obviously well before the allegations that they were abusing me). He was starting to snap out of his petty-crime ways and such, and even starting to catch up in school work. But the mother got out of rehab, and petitioned to get her kids back. I don't know the complete rest of the story, but we got the foster kid back for a short time about 18 months (or so) later. All of his academic progress was totally gone; worse, his behavioral problems had resurfaced and become even more dangerous. He gutted our cat, and otherwise scared the heck out of my parents (who were worried about my safety -- I was pretty young), and they had to let him go back into the system where he grew up in orphanages the rest of the way. Whatever progress had been made prior to giving the mother another chance was thrown down the drain. He lived a pretty sad life, bouncing from town to town, getting put in jail for minor offenses periodically. He died in a car crash about 10 years ago.

I dunno. It's a horrible mess. We have parents who don't do their jobs. And it's a very private thing. It's very hard to figure out why a kid is mis-behaving or showing signs of trauma. Heck, the kids themselves don't really know what's going on, and that's half the problem.

On the other hand, my impression is that we've gone over-board on the side of intervention. Requiring doctors to report suspicious cases, taking kids away while investigations are underway, taking parents away in handcuffs in front of their kids, threatening parents with charges of child abuse when the school system itself was the cause of the problems (and they had case history to make them think of that) . . . Things like this make me glad I'm not a parent in today's world.
 
25Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Aug 08, 03:36
It's a matter of balance. Do we really need to rip two million kids from their mother's arms ever decade? Not likely.

I know one couple who lost their kids and their minds and their ability to make a living. As far as I can determine all this came about because some 'friends' in their religion didn't think they wore enuff clothes around the kids.

On the otherhand I once picked up a new employee and as I looked in the front door there he was kissing his son full on the lips as he struggled to get away from him. Clearly some people just weren't meant to be parents.
 
26Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Fri, Aug 24, 18:30
Here is the story I have been expecting.

The mother whose newborn baby was seized by state police and DSS agents from her arms at the Mary Lane Hospital last month, says she fears for the lives and safety of her newborn, Aaron, and her four-year-old, Damien, who are in DSS custody.

Her 5-year-old son, Kyle, DIED after a Rottweiler attacked him this June while in another DSS foster home.

“They murdered one child. I am not going to sit back and let them hurt my other two boys.”


Compounding her worries, Ross said DSS placed her infant son and Damien together with two homosexual men who say they want to adopt them. “I told DSS I didn’t want that. I said I think the boys should bond with their mother, not with gay men. They told me I have no say in the matter.”

Ross told MassNews she would have the boys checked out at a hospital for molestation immediately after she gets them back from DSS, particularly after a gay, foster care parent in Worcester County was arrested last month for raping two boys in his custody
.

It's for the children of course. The Mass. DSS knows best of course. Riiiiiiight
 
27Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 3571123
      Fri, Aug 24, 21:47
Well, I can't help but notice the bigoted attitude toward gays as well. Of course all gay men are pedophiles. At least, that's the implication here.

Baldwin, as you know, I'm no fan of DSS departments and their heavy-handed tactics. But that's no excuse to promote bigotry either on the part of the parents.

pd

 
28Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Aug 24, 23:29
Yipers. I'm not a big fan of that article, Baldwin. That's not good reporting, IMO.

Consider: "Observers say it sounds like they are all social workers employed by DSS, but the agency will always use a phrase like that to avoid being accountable to the public." Uh-huh. Who are these 'observers'?

They're pretty knowledgeable, since "many observers point to the adoption bonuses that DSS receives from the federal government if takes a child from its parents and adopts it out to foster parents."

I don't know about the merits of the case, but I'd like to see someone other than this news service and the Child Advocacy group complain about it, and I'd also like to get a better understanding of the court records and such before I go off on the DSS in this case. I just don't see enough factual information to persuade me that there wasn't some real justification for taking this kid in this case. And, yes, the burden of proof should be on the DSS; but I also see no evidence that they haven't met this burden in some other arena -- especially since these are the only sources we have.

PD -- I have to disagree with your assertion that it is an evidence of bigotry that a parent who has lost her child to another family disapproves of their lifestyles. I would bet an awful lot of parents in those situations would express disgruntlement with the lifestyle choices . . . If I had a kid who was taken away to a Mormon family, I have every right to complain about that.

This doesn't mean that I don't have great respect for Mormons (I gave $36 to Hatch in his short-lived primary attempt, for just one example). But it does mean that I don't believe in everything that they do, and I don't want my kid raised in a family that practices that religion. If that makes me a bigot, then so be it.

If parents can't try to raise their children within their own value system (which naturally entails suggesting to the child that this lifestyle and set of beliefs are very good at the expense of other lifestyles and beliefs which are presumably less good), then I wonder why we have parents at all.
 
29Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Aug 24, 23:43
I should also add, in reference to PD 27 - "Well, I can't help but notice the bigoted attitude toward gays as well. Of course all gay men are pedophiles. At least, that's the implication here."

The paragraph that you are referring to is constructed as follows:

1) Ross was going to have her kid checked out for abuse. I think this is a perfectly NATURAL reaction if you have your kid (based on her perception) basically abducted away from you -- especially when the last time this happened your kid came back in a coffin.

2) Ross suggested that this would be particularly important since there a gay person was convicted of rape of two boys last month.

Thus, you can read this statement as coming from a bigot who believes as you suggest, or you can read this as a statement from a mother who had one kid killed a few months ago, and reads about the rapes of two who were -- as far as this mother knows -- in a similar family home. I think any mother would be worrying and fearing the worst in that situation, regardless of bigotry or preconceptions.

Personally, I think the main problems we have in this country regarding racism and bigotry is that we always assume the worst of each other first, instead of the best, even when we don't have a natural excuse like Ross does here.

I will grant you, however, that the writing is pretty bad here, and it almost reads as if the AUTHOR of the piece was making this connection. Which is much less excusable.

But, as I said before, I don't like the way the whole piece reads, to be frank. So I don't think the author could be reduced in my estimation if this were the case or not.
 
30Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28059111
      Fri, Aug 24, 23:48
I understand your point, Madman. Being gay, however, most often isn't a "lifestyle choice." Given bigoted attitudes against gays in the workplace, the military, and so on, who would "choose" to have this "lifestyle?"

Too often homosexuality is painted as some kind of lifestyle choice, like the kind of car you drive or your house's color. Mischaracterizing a group is the first step toward misunderstanding them.

pd
 
31Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28059111
      Fri, Aug 24, 23:53
Err, I was referring to your earlier post. And I think you are right that the writing might make the parent's attitude seem different than it is; call it the Fox News style of reporting :)

pd
 
32Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Sat, Aug 25, 01:07
PD 31 -- yes. To be clear, I'm not saying for SURE that the writing is mischaracterizing her opinion, but I am definitely saying that it's possible.

PD 30 -- So, if you are a gay, are you saying you must live with a same sex partner? I wasn't aware that this wasn't a choice. Is this some sort of regulation or something that I wasn't aware of? I thought they were free to be single or even to marry persons of the opposite gender (i.e., Ann Heche) if they so chose. Hmmm.

Interesting. I suppose next you're going to argue that heterosexuals have no choice whether or not they remain single or live together, too?

If so, I'm living proof of a counter-example of that. Hmmm. Wait a sec. Maybe you're right. Maybe in my case it's the choices of all the women out there. DOH!!! At any rate, it's SOMEONE's choice not to live with me ;)

(BTW, are you saying that someone's most fundamental religious beliefs are a matter of choice, but who they live with is not? What about someone's most fundamental personality traits? Can I complain about those? By the time you're an adult, most of that stuff isn't really much a matter of choice anymore, either.)
 
33Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Sat, Aug 25, 03:06
Hmm. I'm changing my mind. We don't have a choice about who we live with. You just convinced me, PD. Well, you and the fact that I'm going to go to Hollywood and show Julie Bowen (Caroline Vessey on "Ed") this thread and convince her that I have to move in with her. Afterall, she has no choice in the matter. :)

Yep, I like your world better, PD. Now, I gotta go. Gotta book a flight :). Of course, with my luck, she'll turn out to be one of the typically self-centered hollywood actresses . . . hmmmm. That really has nothing to do with luck. Aren't they basically all like that? Nevermind.

I guess I better be careful what I wish for. OK, forget it. I'm flipping back. I now disagree with you again. Save money on my air fare this way, too.

Did I just choose not to go to hollywood and get hitched up? Hmmmm. Interesting . . .
 
34James K Polk
      ID: 3045252
      Sat, Aug 25, 03:49
Baldwin -- I mean this only in the best of humor, and I'm not commenting on the content of the article ... I couldn't help but click through to the "about us" section of that Web site, and guess what appears in the bio of the writer of the article you linked to?

Ed Oliver's "articles have appeared in the Western Journalism Center’s popular Internet news site WorldNetDaily."

LOL! :)

Believe it or not, I really do love you man, but that was too funny to not mention.
 
35Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Sat, Aug 25, 04:00
For the record, I made the statement "I don't like the way this piece reads" BEFORE I knew about the "About Us" information from JKP. I should've checked that out. Leave it to a media person to catch me at not checking out the sources thoroughly! Sigh. Pretty soon, I'm going to lose all credibility at criticizing the media. . .
 
36Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sun, Aug 26, 06:46
Polk

Heh, nice find. Actually all yer librul buddies prolly won't let an unbiased or conservative reporter play in any of their reindeer games but WJC would give him a listen. The 'real' defenders of the publics right to hear the whole story are all gravitating to alternative news outlets.
 
37Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sun, Aug 26, 06:58
PD

Of course the point isn't to beat up on gays, sure pedophilia shows up on both sides of the fence. There is the undeniable fact that straight pedophiles have an easier more natural way to recuit new victims...ugh I hate this subject...

The point being made in that piece is of course is that the DSS has no business stealing newborns out of hospitals if they can't guaranttee they will be safer in the new home the state has chosen for them. Considering the same DSS stealing her kids has delivered her own child into the fangs of a pitbull and others into the arms of child rapists. This doesn't bother you huh? You think she has no legitimate gripe?

Further have we really decided as a society that it's ok to steal children from straight families and give them to homosexuals?
 
38Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28059111
      Sun, Aug 26, 11:02
Baldwin,

My problem isn't that the couple is straight or gay. My problem is in the theft problem. The fact that the adopting couple is gay is just thrown out there, as if, by that fact, there is something wrong with it.

We agree, I believe, on the problems of over-zealous Child "Welfare" departments busting up families for little or no reason, actually endangering children more through their processes. But I won't fall into the trap of hysteria over whether gay families are unqualified to adopt or foster children for no other reason than they are gay.

pd
 
39Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Sun, Aug 26, 15:37
I'm not willing to actually commit and say that this indeed is a "theft" problem.

I haven't failed to notice that in this whole story excoriating the DSS that no one is arguing that there was no reason for her now deceased child to be taken away.

If I'm not mistaken, if a parent has a history of abuse and neglect of one child, it's common to remove other children from her care.

In all the other hoopla, I think this point has been missed here.

And, I should add, I have a natural bias toward believing that the State can indeed be too interventionist in this sort of thing. But if a parent does have a history of abusive behavior, I also have a bias toward saying the children should be removed and put in as stable a situation as possible. And this quite possibly seems to be this sort of case.
 
40Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Fri, Nov 09, 2001, 20:39
Heartwrenching story here involves a custody battle, a resultant suicide, a controversial 'expert-for-hire', I found it worth the read. Part four explains a lot and was especially interesting.
 
41sarge33rd
      ID: 491058113
      Sat, Nov 10, 2001, 11:21
speaking from 1st hand knowledge as both a wrongfully accused parent AND an investigator of abuse while in the military:

Child Services by and large hold carte blanche to take/remove a child at their discretion. Evidence must simply meet the same level of proof as a civil trrial, that is to say a theoretical 'proponderence' or 50.1% probabillity.

Ask virtually any child abuse investigator with more than 3 or 4 years criminal investigative experience, and he/she will tell you that 75% at a minimum, of 'sexual' abuse charges leveled by children against their parent/provider are patently false, yet oddly enouogh, of those cases that go to trial, 97% result in conviction. Odd disparity there.

As for my exp as the wrongfully accused, my ex and I had 4 kids from my 1st marriage. (I fought for and had won custody.) Some years later, my eldest dau, the 2nd born, accused me of sexually molestation. The time frame of the allegation was her 6th grade school year, Sep 1990-May 1991. I was in Desert Shield/Storm from Aug 1990 to July 1991. Military documentation galore to prove it, yet this STILL went to trial! DSS removed my eldest dau, my next eldest dau yet left my oldest child (son) AND youngest child (dau) in the home! If the allegations were sufficient for trial, why was a dau left in my home? *The reverse question of course is, if they left a dau in the home, how the hell did we end up in trial?)
 
42Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sat, Nov 17, 2001, 13:15
More amazing but true stories on the lasting harmful effects of controversial 'experts'. The last two paragraphs tell volumes about how involuntary sex changes became commonplace in America.
 
43Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sun, Apr 20, 2003, 04:54
Up From Liberalism

How one of the founding Berkley liberals moved to Britain to enjoy the socialism only to discover it reduced adults to children with an allowance.
For historical reasons that may never be absolutely clear, many young people who had thoughts like mine found themselves in the same place at the same time. Together, we invented the student revolutionary movement in 1964. So many of us have had second thoughts about its three major components—politics, promiscuity, and pot—that it is probably important to recall how serious the civil liberties issue was that gave rise to the original Free Speech Movement.

We arrived back on campus for the 1964–65 academic year to a Board of Regents decree that, henceforth, no political activity of any kind was permitted within the university boundaries. No one could distribute literature on behalf of any political cause. No political society or group could hold meetings. No speaker could address any student gathering on a political issue. These prohibitions amounted to a denial of the most basic constitutional freedoms of speech and association to a community of Americans who happened to live or work on the Berkeley campus...

True, I did feel misgivings when the socialist grouplets to which I gravitated spoke of “infiltrating” the Democratic Party and of the “realignment” of liberal politics toward the Marxist Left. But those doubts took many years to mature...
__________________________________________________

In that implacably despairing state of mind, I took myself off to Britain, where Harold Wilson’s Labour Party had recently been elected with a tiny Parliamentary majority (which would be vastly increased in the general election of 1966). The possibility of living under European socialism, even of a tenuous kind, seemed too exciting a possibility to miss. ...
__________________________________________________

In the 1970s, as I clung to my Marxist convictions, I heard an interview with Sir Keith Joseph, one of the great architects of the Thatcherite revolution. He described the dangers of what he called “the pocket-money society.” If the state provided all of the basic human needs—housing, health care, education, care for the elderly—it left nothing for people to provide for themselves, other than the more trivial recreational things. Their own earnings became like children’s pocket money, to be spent on toys or self-indulgence. The state took all of the significant economic choices of adult life out of their hands, diminishing them as responsible, moral beings. Joseph’s words did not convert me on the spot, but they shook my beliefs to the roots, because they chimed so convincingly with the evidence that I saw around me.
__________________________________________________
But what was less explicable than this working-class defeatism was to hear those who regarded themselves as progressive liberals
conniving in it. The Left in Britain then (and scarcely less now) believed deeply that personal ambition was a petit bourgeois vice to be despised. Such left-wing antipathy to supposedly vulgar social striving became particularly vicious during the Thatcher years. The most telling left-liberal character assassinations of Thatcher herself focused on her being a “grocer’s daughter.”

One of my more vivid 1980s recollections is of an upper-class woman, whose family had been colonial officials in Kenya, saying airily, “When I was a child, profit was a dirty word.” This Jane Austenish disdain for the grubby business of trade strongly marked anti-Thatcherite rhetoric. The notion that private prosperity could transform the lives (and self-image) of ordinary people was viewed as faintly obscene. The great social caricature of the 1980s was “Essex Man”: the quintessentially vulgar upstart who had gotten money and property and was now busily spending (and flaunting) it in a myriad of crass ways. Everything about Essex Man, from his brash manners to his cleaned-up Cockney accent, came in for ridicule. His female equivalent—Essex Girl—was the butt of jokes too obscene to be published here. But Essex Men, with their sports cars and brassy wives, were not just thought to be ludicrous. They were a deeply sinister sign of the times: people without breeding and without the proper class connections were getting money and the confidence to spend it where they liked, for the first time in living memory.

Not only did the left-wing intelligentsia dislike uppity lower-middle-class arrivistes: they positively discouraged the most deprived working-class people from rejecting their “roots.” With a sentimental complacency that astonished me, they venerated the very social habits and attitudes that seemed to me so perversely backward. (A whole school of British film and television drama perpetuates the romanticized myth of working-class life—a kind of “noble savage” genre that utterly falsifies the grim repressiveness that this life actually embodies.)

The left-wing elite castigated teachers for attempting to correct the working-class accents and dialects that help trap children in the limitations of their own backgrounds. Correct grammar and properly pronounced English were, left-wing commentators argued, simply a middle-class dialect, with no claim to inherent superiority over the subliterate speech familiar to working-class children. Therefore, to inflict proper English on children who spoke the systematically ungrammatical dialects of the British proletariat was a form of cultural imperialism. Bourgeois values were the real enemy of working-class self-respect, because they made people who did not subscribe to them feel alienated and insecure. The socialist ideal was not to free people to fulfill their personal potential but to guarantee that no one would ever feel inferior to anyone else in any respect—intellectually, socially, or economically. Marxist veneration of the “working man” meant preserving, as a function of class cohesion, the behavior that I saw as symptomatic of self-loathing.

How had it come to this? Why did liberals who were supposedly advocates of egalitarianism collude in this blatantly repressive aspect of British social and political life? How did they reconcile their commitment to socialism, which I had always understood as being about the liberation of humanity, with a romanticizing of what anyone in his right mind should have seen as a cruelly inadequate and culturally degraded way of life? So much of what passed for left-wing thinking in Britain seemed to be steeped in middle-class guilt and self-hatred.

What decisively transformed my views was my growing understanding of the consequences of the welfare state that Britain had constructed out of a wartime command economy: it both reinforced the fatal passivity of the lower classes and provided a moral justification for the paternalism of the upper classes. The realization was slow but inexorable. It came through concrete example and abstract argument. By the end, it was so blindingly obvious that I wondered how anyone could ever not have seen that the socialist solution—the great, generous dream of perfect fairness—was inevitably destructive of the human spirit.
__________________________________________________

This was the reality of the collectivist ethic in which each should be striving for all, not for himself and his own. It amounted to the infantilizing of people, who had come to believe that they could not, positively should not, be making life-determining decisions for themselves, because their choices might deprive someone else

Was left-wing politics anything more than a gloss for envious vengeance on the one hand, and—on the other—a sinister desire to control the lives of others? And, in the end, wasn’t it the achievements and the nobility of individuals, not collectives, that gave the human condition its point?

 
44Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 22:23
Breast feed, lose yer kid.
 
45Pancho Villa
      Donor
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 23:35
This really happened deep in the heart of Bush Country?
 
46sarge33rd
      ID: 381154278
      Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 23:42
'family' values huh?
 
47katietx
      ID: 48326255
      Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 23:50
This is the most insane thing I've read. The whole bunch of them ought to be fired! The Eckerd employee, the police chief, the DA - all of them! How stupid can people be?

And to have CPS take the kids, and then not return them? Texas has a bad rep (rightly so) when it comes to child services. Either they do nothing or they go way overboard.

This deserves a letter to the Dallas Morning News!!!!!

 
48Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 13:45
Awww those kids look hungry and thirsty...the nightmare begins but it never ends.
 
49sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 13:57
unfortunately, the people within the various CPS's across the country, have become so jaded, they see snakes every time they look at a rock. Even when the rock in question is a diamond.
 
50Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 14:04
When you are stealing several million kids every decade what's a couple more? All of them 'need' government approved warehousers of children instead of their natural parents anyway.

And hey those foster parents need a free live-in maid and an extra paycheck.
 
51sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 14:05
in my experience Baldwin, many of the CPS workers are similarto many Vets Affairs workers. They are so damn busy trying to justify their jobs, they often do either nothing, or the wrong the thing.
 
52Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 34071820
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 14:09
Don't be hard on the foster parents, B. The extra money is nowhere near the compensation needed for taking in kids that have come from some pretty awful places.

Does CPS go too far in more than a few cases? Yes, and their power needs to be cut back. But the mandate to protect some of these kids is certainly needed. And without people willing to open up their homes to kids who have been sexually abused, have had kids themselves at 14, have AIDS, or have just been through a psychic hell that mandate is useless.

In fact, the more foster parents there are, the fewer of those warehouses there will be.

pd
 
53Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 14:15
I know a wonderful wonderful foster parent couple that looked after the children of a suicidal woman unofficially for several years and then tried to adopt them when she did commit suicide. The blithering idiot agencies split the kids up and only the boys went to this couple. The boys are regular visitors [3-4 times a week] to my house and good friends but none of us including the boys get to see the sister hardly.
 
54sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 14:17
totally agree PD. Its certainly not the foster parents themselves I blame, (though some are foster parents for entirely the wrong reasons, mnay are doing so for ALL of the right ones). Its the 'system'. Govt employees are often times so afraid of doing the wrong thing, they do nothing OR they over-compensate and over-reach as a result. With all the scare of child abuse being in the news daily, we have created a society wherein all it takes is for one persons perception to be such, and an entire family is destroyed. Finances are wiped out, jobs lost and emotional trauma and scarring so deep and profound, there is virtually no hope of emerging 'whole' from the experience.
 
55Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 34071820
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 14:28
Yeah, your last sentence nails it. The problems that Baldwin brings up so well is that on top of their situation the government agencies make it much, much worse in so many cases.

pd
 
56sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 14:34
knew a fella once who was charged, tried and acquitted of sexually abusing his daughter. No way in hell did this man do what he was accused of. Oddest part of the entire ordeal though, was CPS. They took 2 of the 3 girls from the home, leaving the youngest, along with another child, a boy. Upon acquittal, CPS continued into administrative court to get a finding of 'founded' on the original allegation. This way, they didnt have to return the other 2 girls to the household. Now, IF this man had been indeed guilty of the allegations, why were 2 children left in the home? And since 2 children were in fact left in the home, why were charges even persued? CPS has turned into its own green-headed monster. No way to fight it, no way to hold your own, no way to obtain normalcy once that entity becomes involved.
 
57Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 14:37
And if you try and buck the system you do it with a child abuser sign tied around yer neck. Talk about a bad agency having an unfair advantage over their victims.
 
58sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 14:41
it essentially boils down to a good idea gone bad. Take the analogy of the runaway freighttrain. Your odds of emerging in tact from a CPS allegation are quite genuinely, probably less than your odds of stopping that train simply by standing on the tracks.
 
59Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 09:46
If you homeschool in Massachusetts the state owns your kids. Just ask them.
 
60Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 11:11
What, exactly, is your complaint in that case, Baldin? That the government has educational standards for people who choose to homeschool their children? Those people chose to allow DSS to take their children rather than allow them to take a multiple choice test to make sure that the kids are learning how to read and add. The parents are idiots.

Seriously Baldwin, if this is what you find concerning, you need to get better acquainted with the real world. In this matter, the real world is that a lot of "homeschooling" is done by parents who are too lazy to even send their kids to public school and use "homeschooling" as a defense to truancy charges. That's child abuse. What possible complaint can their be to taking a simple multiple choice test each year to insure a modicum of standards are being met in the "home school? Deranged people have no right to raise children.
 
61Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 2345588
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 11:24
MBJ, many, many homeschoolers are taught at home by people who believe that it is better to face a child one-on-one in an educational environment that force them through a one-size-fits-all bureaucracy which ensures that the smart kids get dumbed down and the slowest kids never really get the attention they need.

Most homeschool parents are exactly the kind of parents schools need more of: Concerned enough to take charge of their kid's education to sacrifice time and effort despite paying taxes to a school system which doesn't serve them.

"Child abuse" is a term I'd also use with schools who practice "zero tolerance" with regard to children. "Child abuse" is not a term I'd use for people who decide they don't want to buy into such a perverting system.

Now, I'll grant you that many who homeschool do it for strange reasons, such as believing the schools to not teach enough about their religious beliefs. But to call many of those parents "lazy" hardly begins to quantify the effort it takes to make the committment to homeschool.

In many states (California, for instance), homeschooling is illegal, putting kids more at the mercy of teachers unions than anything else.

pd
 
62Dave k
      ID: 30511216
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 11:32
Finally Dude said something I can agree with.The voucher system would solve the public school problem.I wish it was tested more.
 
63Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 11:42
PD, I know you homeschool. So does one of my sisters - to great effect. Homeschooling can be great and I'm all for it. But I see "many" (meaning hundreds) of "homeschoolers" who are just as I've described them - lazy, abusive parents. I'm sure you don't object to your kids meeting minimum state standards, do you? Would you refuse to allow your kids to take a test that aims are insuring that their being schooled? Do you deny that the State has a right to insure that kids have real schooling? If not, then I don't think we're disagreeing. (If so, I'll have the DSS care around to your place in a few minutes :))

I do wonder where your "most hoimeschoolers" info comes from. Do you mean most of the ones you know? Most of the ones I know are awful. I don't think I have contact with a representative sample though. Do you?
 
64Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 2345588
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 12:25
MBJ: My wife and I needed to do quite a bit of research before deciding to take the plunge. One of the cooler part of the Internet is that it puts you in touch with a wide variety of people, like homeschoolers, which makes you face a wide variety of views.

Of course, I'm not saying that I have seen all types of homeschool parents. The irony is that you are likely to see more of the parents I don't, and vice versa.

The practice of the State ensuring that kids are being educated is rife with problems. Once the argument is made that the State is the ultimate authority in education, the parents cede to those education "professionals" nearly everything, and the "professionals" have little interest in anything but their own educational views and theories. In fact, in my opinion one of the modern problems is that we have, in fact, ceded that responsibility across the board and parents now take no responsibility in their children's education. And I realize I am pulling this out with nothing to back it up, but it seems to me that you are seeing many, many more "lazy" people who see just sending their kids to school as their sole educational responsibility.

There's certainly a line between State's interest and State intrusion, and allowing the State to draw that line is where I disagree. For example, should homeschool parents have teaching certificates before they can homeschool? The cynic in me asks if we should require such certificates of all prospective parents. Should parents have to give the local school board "grades" for their kids? This might solve your problem--any parent who can't homeschool their kids to getting an A in a subject can be weeded out. Should parents be required to use the local school board curricula only?

IMO the State's interest is in seeing that there is education going on. Given the utter failure of many local schools, attempting to force a quality issue by using the very means which drive many parents out of the "system" as the check on the homeschoolers virtually ensures that the dichotomy between actual education and bureaucraticaly-based measurement of the same will continue.

pd
 
65Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 2345588
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 12:25
Dave, not to break the bubble, but I am absolutely against vouchers. But I believe in the right of homeschoolers. Go figure, eh.

pd
 
66Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 12:34
PD I just don't buy into your false choice. The State have minimum educational requirements does not mean that we've ceded anything to the teachers unions (which I loathe) My kids aren't taught by menbers of the KEA, for instance; however my kids' education does have to meet certain minimal standards set by the State. One of the main reasons I love vouchers is that it will help emasculate the Education Establishment while improving the quality of our kids education.
 
67Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 2345588
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 12:42
I wasn't very clear. It's not the fact that there are minimum standards. It's both how they are measured and the means the State requires the education toward those standards to be accomplished.

To require students to demonstate some minimal educational competence is itself not controversial. But to declare that only the State can provide that education (as several states have done), or to declare that education at home without at least one parent holding a state teaching certificate is illegal (as California has done) are just two examples of many that the educational bureaucracy tends to serve its own needs and further its own goals first.

pd
 
68Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 15:58
MBJ

I see, whereas the state has the right to pump out illiterates all day long.

I would feel better about this if I didn't know that what the state is really trying to do is prevent parents from having an out from this.

You have the outmoded thinking that educators are about education.

This is what they mean by testing...
Before I elaborate, let me explain a bit about Goals 2000. This legislation was passed in 1994 during the Clinton administration after it failed to pass during the first Bush administration in its first incarnation as America 2000.

Goals 2000 "created the partnership between government and education by mandating dumbed-down national education standards, a national curriculum, national test, and national teacher licensure." (From our previous update.)

HR6 (the last reauthorization of the ESEA) was passed at the same time as Goals 2000. It stated that the "voluntary" stipulations of Goals 2000 were mandatory if states wanted any federal education money. This put the federal government in control of curriculum and testing in all 50 states, a clear violation of the 10th Amendment of the US Constitution.

HR6 mandated a set of standards in each state that correlated to Goals 2000. The goals and standards were billed as academic in nature. In fact, they are indoctrination and entry level job skills training, tracking students into careers based on the needs of business -- all managed by federal bureaucrats.

HR6 required assessments (subjective evaluations of attitudes and behaviors, instead of tests that objectively measure academic knowledge) that are correlated with these so-called academic standards. These assessments are derived from the National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP). In fact, many state assessments were written by the author of the NAEP, Ralph Tyler. Tyler said in the 1940s, "The real purpose of education is not to have the instructor perform certain activities, but to bring about significant changes in the students' patterns of behavior."

The NAEP will now be (thanks to the "No Child Left Behind" bill) the national assessment used to "validate" the state assessments.


BTW in order to impliment Goals 2000 they had to claim they were eliminating it. Not true...
One of the ways Congress is trying to convince grassroots education activists that local control is being improved is by saying that Goals 2000 has been repealed in this legislation. The November 26th summary states: "The proposal would remove all references to Goals 2000, outcome-based education, School-to-Work, Workforce Investment Act, and higher order thinking skills."

This was restated firmly to me over the phone by a prominent education staffer and by House Education Committee staff in an email that said: "... states have to comply with '94 - having standards and assessments in place - but Goals 2000 does not have to be a part of this if states don't want it."

So, what does this so-called repeal of Goals 2000 in HR1 really mean? Here is more of the House Education Committee's response to my question on whether Goals 2000 has really been repealed or if it was just in name only:

"The past framework of Goals and STW will exist if states don't choose to change it using the flexibility provided by the Schaffer language (can change standards without Department approval). Again, states have to comply with '94 - having standards and assessments in place - but Goals 2000 does not have to be a part of this if states don't want it."

No state, especially in this time of economic uncertainty, is going to spend millions more dollars to develop new standards and go back to their old laws, especially if they have repealed hundreds of them as Minnesota has. That leaves every state under "the past framework of Goals 2000 and STW"! We are being given the mirage of freedom with no freedom at all.
Then there is this...
When educrats talk about CIM standards, they're not talking about the ability to read and write, do math and know facts. The outcomes for the CIM are loaded with sociological "outcomes," many of which follow politically correct thought and behavior guidelines. Students will be assessed on how well they are "quality producers," "self-directed learners," "involved citizens," "constructive thinkers," "effective communicators," "understand diversity," "deliberate on public issues," and a host of vague, relative outcomes.

Private and home schoolers will not be exempt.
The educrats are well aware of the massive hemorrhage of students from public to private education; the new system is all-or-nothing and cannot afford to let private and home schoolers jump off. These groups can expect massive legal coercion to conform to the system. Just the fact that a CIM will be required for a job will be the first major threat to begin with.

The bottom line is that the new educational system will resemble nothing of the previous one. It is being called voluntary but is being forced on states by withholding federal funds from those that don't comply. The new standards are anything but academic but are designed to create a compliant work force in a politically correct thinking mold. Since these values will be required and will clearly often be in conflict with the Christian world-view, it is easy to see where the collisions are going to occur.

The entire education agenda consists of an interlocking set of laws, government departments and foundations. When one zooms back and views all the interactive parts as a whole, the future is nothing short of horrifying. The time to become involved is now. If you don't, you were warned.
 
69Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 16:21
Here is Massachusetts own Goals 2000 website describing these assessments...
Initiative # 3: School-Based pK-12 Authentic Assessment
The new assessment will strive towards a goal of authenticity by incorporating essay, problem solving, and other open ended questions in place of multiple choice. There is. however, a limit to how authentic an assessment can be if it focuses on how a student performs at a single sitting. Other, more authentic, approaches to student assessment will utilize techniques such as interdisciplinary projects and student portfolios to measure the development of students' skills in real life situations over an extended period of time. While this approach is arguably a more accurate measure of higher order thinking skills, it is more difficult to standardize the results.

Over the past three years, the Department has initiated three pilot projects to explore school-based, standardized authentic assessment: the New Standards Project, Harvard Education School's Project Zero, and the early childhood portfolio assessment system. Over the next few years, teachers' capacity to use these new assessment techniques will be expanded through a major statewide commitment to professional development activities linked to the Curriculum Frameworks [see Initiatives #1 and #13].


These will not be about reading writing and arithmetic. These will be essay questions about PC attitudes and if the student or the student's family 'fails' according to these gatekeepers he won't even get a CIM qualifying him for streetsweeper.
 
70Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 16:29
Here is a description of the American History guidelines that assessment would be based on...
Lynne Cheney, former chairwoman of the National Endowment for the Humanities, addressed the Goals 2000 history standards in an article for The Wall Street Journal, "The End of History", on Oct. 20, 1994. She wrote, "The general drift of the document becomes apparent when one realizes that not a single one of the 31 standards mentions the Constitution."

What do various respected historians and educators say? Here´s a sampling: "a travesty, a caricature" and an effort to teach children to "feel negative about their own country" (Albert Shanker, President–American Federation of Teachers); "riddled with propaganda" (John Leo, "U.S. News and World Report"); anti–western … hostile to the main threads of American history" (Chester Finn, The Hudson Institute)

Predictably, the education establishment ignored the Senate´s non–binding condemnation of the history standards. They proceeded as they had planned and have distributed the standards. They are now in the hands of administrators, teachers, and curriculum committees in your local schools. Take a good, hard look at the textbooks your children are bringing home. You may find that the history is not how you remember it.
Goals 2000 is a PC social engineering juggernaut that no one is going to be able to stop. I am just letting you know the near future.
 
71Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 16:38
Predictably the Goals 2000 assessments based on standards for Language Arts has nothing to do with literacy!
What is missing from the standards? The important things are missing, like anything remotely prescriptive, such as "expected", "ought", or "should" or any mention of phonics, spelling, grammar, or punctuation. There was not even a recommended reading list.
And of course in this blithering idiot 132 page document that even the NYT characterized as "a fog of euphemism" we find that literacy has been redefined so that the most illiterate gangbanger qualifies. But we had better get those homeschoolers tested, eh MBJ?
 
72Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 16:41
There is a crucial difference between an objective test and an 'assessment'.
 
73biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 49132614
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 16:44
Typical Baldwin. Chooses to Spach the hell out of the thread with one of his pet whipping boys instead of addressing the issue at hand.

What would you do to make sure "home schooled" is not equated with "illiterate bumpkin?" Or is no education better than the "wrong" education in your mind?
 
74Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 2345588
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 16:47
Who said homeschooling was "no schooling?"
 
75Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 16:51
When I homeschooled I had various educational software and these programs have track records of success. These programs also come with testing that can be shown to any school board that feels the program is not being followed.
 
76biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 49132614
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 16:53
PD - I didn't say that. I asked how we can verify that it isn't.
 
77biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 49132614
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 16:54
Baldwin But then wouldn't you be forcing a particular type of schooling on parents?
 
78Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 2345588
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 16:55
The only thing we can be sure of right now is that much of the public schooling is a failure, even by the subjective testing being used to measure educational progress, given by people who have an obvious need to demonstrate their teaching effectiveness.

To assume those who risk the wrath of an out of control educational bureaucracy to teach kids at home (surely a more effective educational atmosphere) are actually doing a poorer job than current public schools is making a very big assumption at the very least. Given the poor state of schools and the lack of any research consulted such a statement, bili, doesn't rise to your usual standards.

pd
 
79Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 17:00
Homeschoolers are making a mockery of public education as any national spelling bee will show you. You will find the best and the brightest coming out of homeschools and the committed loving parents who make the effort to provide something better.
 
80biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 49132614
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 17:02
What statement, PD? What assumptions?

You are getting defensive without actually reading my posts.
 
81Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 2345588
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 17:17
Bili, I read them, of course!

Regarding #73, here are some of the assumptions:

-that homeschooling does not actually educate unless the State is assured that it is not failing, through its own testing procedures.

-that there is a connection between the testing of homeschoolers and their educational progress.

Regarding # 77:

-That many States aren't already forcing a curriculum onto parents.

-that parents don't chose the curriculum first, rather than the other way around as for those who send their kids to school.


pd
 
82biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 18:00
Actually the assumption in #73 is that regardless of system, their are those that excel at teaching the kids (which I am sure is where you fall), those that are average and those that suck. You want to identify those that suck so that you can intervene to begin to provide the kids with a better education.

My question, which I think should be the focus of our discussion, is how to best identify those that suck, when there are a variety of different teaching methods and curriculums.

You seem to be suggesting that all homeschooling is superior and even pondering the alternative is an insult. I am sure you don't really believe that, or I would have started at a different point in the discussion (which I thought we had covered eons ago in a different thread, but perhaps you don't recall).

What states do and don't mandate regarding curriculum choice, I readily admit ignorance to.
 
83Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 20:22
Let me amend #69. There will be questions of writing, reading and arithmetic but the point of Goals 2000 is social engineering and dumbing down America. Out of the 'fog of euphemism' anyone can pick out what sounds like positives but that is the point of keeping it vague, dense and long.
 
84Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 1754479
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 20:24
Well, one can't draw sharp differences, but I believe on the average that those who choose to homeschool are more likely to make the commitment to their child's education than those who don't. And I believe that, again, on the average, all other things being equal, a homeschooling environment is a much more nuturing educational environment for all those things the State would test.

Of course there are exceptions. Surely some of the best teachers are in public schools (and surely they have learned the additional skills of teaching groups and multi-tasking). And there have to be some of the worst teachers that are homeschooling (or not, as the case may be). But for the reasons above there would be an advantage for a child being homeschooled.

Now I do know of some homeschooled children who are not--particularly those being homeschooled because of religious reasons, frankly. But I think the average still does hold.

pd
 
85biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 21:27
You are still missing my point, PD. I am happy to concede that, on average, home schooling is providing a better education. I would certainly like to be able to quantitatively verify it, but if you say so, fine. I am not really interested in arguing that point with you.

What I am asking is how you identify those who are homeschooling their kids who really shouldn't be, or those kids whose needs are beyond what their parents alone can provide. In public schools there is testing to identify poor teachers or children who might need extra help. If you balk at testing home schoolers, as you seem to be, how do you identify those kids who are not getting a good or appropriate education out of the home?
 
86Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 21:45
Believe me Bili, the schools want every last student they can claim and they verify you have a program in place before they give up and go away, assuming they ever do.
 
87Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 10:38
PD, you really are being terribly defensive and naive about this. I've seen dozens of "homeschools" where the parents who were supposedly doing the homeschooling were literally illiterate (and received SSI diabilty for it, and wnated to pas that legacy on to their children - thus the homeschooling) I've seen hundreds of "homeschools" where the kids had no books, no manuals, no CD-ROM, no nothing - in other words the "homeschool" was a a complete sham. You act this is a small or inconsequential problem. You act as if these children are no better off going to a lousy public school somewhere.

You're isolated with a lot of other like-mided home schoolers who, no doubt, do a bang-up job, much better than public schools. You don't see the sham that thousands make of home-schooling, because you simply don't associate with those people. But when I'm talking about the State insuring certain minimum standards - those are the people the standards are meant to address - the ones who use "home school" as cover for "no school" If you don't see the problem, bro, it's not because it doesn't exist - it's because you're not around it.

As for the education establishment - I'm all for bringing it down. I'm not for doing that at the exspense of thousands of illiterate kids though.
 
88Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 11:14
I'm not for doing that at the exspense of thousands of illiterate kids though.

Thousands? There are already thousands of illiterate kids in America. Try millions.

Baldwin
In this thread, you advocate the use of standardized tests as part of the basis for students' progress (see your response to question #8). Why should homeschooled students not be held to standards that you advocate for children in our schools?
 
89Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 11:29
I would accept multiple choice basic competency tests. This is not what is actually coming down the pike. I doubt anyone else here has managed to work their way thru the doublespeak I linked to and realize just how radical a change is coming.

What is coming is nothing less than government enforced PC indoctrination backed up by massive computer tracking of the indoctination progress, kids being forced to inform on parents, jobs withheld for lack of PC adjustment, etc.
 
90Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 415311811
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 12:34
I would accept multiple choice basic competency tests.

Then the point of post #59 was......
 
91Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 13:19
Have you understood nothing in all the links I have provided MBJ?

The real point of the assessment is to take a survey of the political correctness of the student. That is why they are open ended questions, not multiple choice questions.
 
92biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 49132614
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 14:05
If the educational issues in Goals 2000 are anything like their Health counterpart, they mean absolutely nothing. There are no teeth to enforce any of this stuff. All it does is provide guidelines and allow nutty conspiracy theorists to rant about how big brother is kidnapping children.

Do you really think we should be sacrificing children's education based on nutty delusional interpretations of non-binding goals?
 
93Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 15:43
The DSS are the teeth Bili.
Goals 2000 is about much more than just education reform. It is the blueprint of a plan to take control of our nation’s children - the next generation of adults. A chilling clue to its true intent is that, among its proponents it is sub-titled: “the Restructuring of American Society - from Cradle to Grave.” The government will be the “parent” of every citizen born in the United States. Each citizen will have an electronic portfolio that begins at birth and will track the person throughout his life. Their education and future place in the work force will be determined by the government. The schools will subject all children to psychological testing. Every parent will have a social worker who will make home visits, conduct a family assessment, and record “risk factors.” Risk factors include not enough toys, too many toys, birth of a sibling, death or divorce in the family, homeschooling, etc.

The unholy trinity that is enforcing Goals 2000 is: Child Protective Services (CPS), known as DSS in Massachusetts, the Home Visitation Program (see the August 2000 edition of MassNews), and Outcome Based Education (OBE).

The public is deliberately being kept in the dark as to how these elements are connected because the original proponents of this plan stated that it must be implemented quietly.
You think I am overstating the overreaching of these social engineering dictators?
Licensing of Parents

In addition to the Home Visitation program, which brings the government in control of the child before school age, Goals 2000 is being implemented through parent licensing, parent-teacher compacts, and parental report cards issued by the schools. These programs, under various names, are either in place or being proposed across the nation. Parental Licensing is still a point of controversial discussion, although legislation to pass it into law has been submitted in other states.

The government will determine who may have children and who may not. Jack C. Westman, a psychiatrist at the University of Wisconsin and author of Licensing Parents: Can We Prevent Child Abuse?, explains. “A parent license would place the responsibility on parents to be competent. The burden of proof would be on the parents to demonstrate that they are not abusing and neglecting their children rather than on the state to prove through quasi-legal proceedings that parents are unfit after they have damaged their children.” So, Parents will be in the position of having to disprove a negative, and having to prove that they will not commit future acts.

As one of the most prominent advocates for parental licensing, he adds, “We must create a new paradigm in which parenthood is a privilege.” Most parents feel that being a parent is a privilege, a gift from God that gives our lives meaning and purpose. But, should it be an entitlement given to us by the government? Does this mean that some citizens will be deemed workers, and others breeders? If the government will select who may propagate and who may not, how many steps away are we from mandatory sterilization of those deemed unfit by the government, or those who do not conform to a societal ideal established by the government? Or will we allow “them” to breed to provide children to others?


David Lykken, author of Antisocial Personalities, and a strong advocate of parental licensing, calls for the immediate removal of newborns from unlicensed mothers so that they may be placed directly into foster homes and quickly adopted.


Who will determine who gets the privilege of a license? Will it be used as a perk for those who “go along” and do not resist the socialist regime? Who will make the determination of who may have children and who may not? Will it be done randomly by a computer?
The Illinois legislation established that not having a license would be grounds for the social workers to remove the children.
An interesting sidebar is that although parental licensing advocates are adamant about the issue, they do not feel that it is necessary for social workers or foster parents to have licenses.

Parent Training
Paving the way towards parent licensing is the “Parent Training” program, also enacted in 1994, which is already firmly entrenched. In the Reauthorization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1994, local education agencies are required to reserve a percentage of their Title I, section 1118, “Parental Involvement” funds for programs that teach “parenting skills,” not to teens in school, but to parents who have children enrolled in the schools.

Schools are directed to “coordinate and integrate” their parental involvement strategies with programs like the “Parents as Teachers” program that was initiated in Missouri and became mandatory for all Missouri school districts in 1984. The program, which is a “home/school partnership that begins at birth” has spread to 44 states, including Massachusetts. In this mandatory program, parents are “trained” by “parent educator trainers” (PETs - can you stand it!). The program is based on the offensive assumption that all parents are in need of “training” and the majority are “at risk.” Which explains the condescending, overbearing attitude that we see in DSS.
 
94Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 15:53
The new curriculum no longer allows students to learn academically, slowly making career choices in their own time. Education is tied directly to jobs. Schools have become factories, busily grinding out worker bees to fulfill a very planned economy. There is no room for the dreamers or the undecided. Career decisions are made for them.

The school buildings are now being re-designated as one-stop social centers where drugs will be dispensed and mental health diagnosed in school-based health care clinics; family planning centers will disperse birth control and abortion counseling; under-school-aged children will attend mandatory day care centers; all under one school house roof. Schools will assume the responsibility of feeding students because they will be in the school building from 7 a.m. to 6:30 p.m. to take part in all of the social services provided there. It's all to be run by the education establishment, regardless of parental wishes.

In the classroom children are subjected to constant evaluation tests, checking, not their academic knowledge, but their values, attitudes and beliefs. Information from such tests is placed in massive data banks, creating personal files that stay with the students for life, affecting their ability to get a job, obtain government services or even vote.

"Life-long learning" programs dictate that the students will have to return again and again to school for the rest of their lives to assure that they maintain the "proper" attitudes and values as drilled into them during their initial school experience. Failure to do so will affect their ability to function in society.

Outside the classroom, families and their homes are under constant surveillance from a barrage of social workers and child protection agencies. Child abuse is the catch-word of the day. Parents are evaluated as to their suitability to oversee their own children. Negative evaluations can result in forcing parents to enter special behavior modification programs to "correct" their attitudes and values. Parents who fail to comply can be found guilty of child abuse and see their children removed from the home.

 
95Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 16:13
Math
No way they can screw up this subject right? Think again...
Under the category "New-New Math" children are not taught to memorize multiplication tables. Those who promote the new teaching method believe memorization is bad. Instead, they say, children should be led to "discover multiplication." Students, they say, learn to multiply over several years by "thinking about math" and will therefore retain it longer.

Educrats don't seem too alarmed that many children may never learn basic math structure through this random approach to an exact science. But there seems to be no shortage of programs that teach children nothing.
_______________

Perhaps the worst of all of the New-New Math programs is a monster called "Interactive Mathematics Program" (IMP). Billed as a college prep course developed by the University of California at Berkeley, IMP does not follow traditional sequence and therefore will not provide students with basic math skills.

One parent reporting on his child's experience with IMP tells of a trail of misinformation and outright deceit surrounding the program. The parent reports, "we were told this is a college prep course and that it contained more rigorous academics and higher standards than traditional math. We were told that the traditional progression of Algebra I, Geometry and Algebra II would not be taught as the students would receive those classes in IMP."

The father went on to say, "we were not told the IMP is integrated with English grammar, extreme environmental issues, HIV/AIDS instruction, social studies, science and geography. We were not told that standards had not been developed. We were not told that the academic content has been dumbed-down to the point that only about one fourth of the normal math content was being taught. We were not told that the students assessed themselves and their classmates for a grade." This, in a "college prep" course.
_________________

Meanwhile, data is beginning to emerge on students who have been subjected to such "math" classes. From California, where it all started, they now have data on its first graduates, Top students at California-Davis can't find math classes simple enough to gain basic skills. They are being shipped off to Community Colleges. In Palo Alto, students who have always scored high have seen standardized test scores drop from 86th percentile to 58th percentile. Sixty-three percent of the parents of middle school children pay outside tutors to get real math for their children.
________________

ENGLISH, READING AND LITERATURE

Conjugate a verb, diagram a sentence, learn to spell? What planet are you from? This is language class. We have much more relevant things to learn.

English class is usually where students are told to keep a journal of their deepest thoughts and impressions. These journals are then collected and read by the teacher.

One book being used in these classes is called "The Book of Questions." Designed around "situation ethics," the authors openly admits that "this book is designed to challenge attitudes, morals and beliefs." He also states that there are no correct or incorrect answers or moral absolutes.
_______________________

GEOGRAPHY

Here you might expect radical environmentalism and, of course, it is rampant. The world map is used to point out biosphere reserves and disappearing rain forests. But here again, no subject is safe from the psychological profiling of each student.

One sixth grade exercise is entitled "how to make a 'me' map." Children were instructed to create themselves as a map by answering such questions as; what type of land mass are you? Are you and island? An island represents a loner, an introvert, a person who likes to be by himself. A peninsula is almost completely surrounded by water except for one side that is connected to the mainland. The connected side could represent a close friend of a family member. Are you landlocked? If you are landlocked, you like people surrounding you. You are an extrovert.

The paper goes on to describe that if you have a lot of problems in your life then you will have a rocky shore, and so forth.
_______________________

CIVICS

Learn about how the government is structured? No, too boring. It's time for more situation ethics.

An eighth grade activity sheet entitled "You Are In Charge" asks students to "imagine that you are the police sergeant in charge of dispatching officers to investigate crime reports telephoned in by concerned citizens." A list of calls are provided and students are instructed to list them in the order they would send police to investigate and then discuss why they made the choices. Again, the situations are life threatening and students have to decide who survives.
________________________

No these assessments will not be the objective SAT type tests you expect. They will be all about PC behavior tracking and modification. They will be about even whether or not you are allowed to raise your own Kids.

BILIRUBEN

A question, since DCFS is already kidnapping 2 million kids per decade I was wondering how many more they have to take before I am allowed to become concerned?
 
96biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 49132614
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 19:26
What are these quotes from? All from the first link, which is subjective interpretation by, for all I know, someone just as paranoid (or horrors! Even more!) than you?

You should know by now that you shouldn't waste your or my time spaching me with slanted opinion pieces.

...went to MassNews to see what you were quoting. You've got to be joking.
 
97Pancho Villa
      Donor
      ID: 533817
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 20:01
By all means, let's not teach kids about disappearing rain forests.
Radical environmentalism. That would be destroying the rain forests, not teaching that they're disappearing. That would be the truth.
 
98Micheal
      ID: 412281014
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 20:13
A little curious. What happened to Spach?
 
99Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Jun 18, 2003, 21:49
Yeah, you won't lose any sleep at all when they are stealing my grandkids from my sons. Seriously....thanks in advance.
 
100Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sat, Aug 30, 2003, 03:24
Want a second medical opinion for your kid? Lose your kid.
 
101Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sat, Sep 27, 2003, 13:55
Vacation in Oregon, lose your kids.

Brian and Ruth were now at the breaking point. They knew the court was scheduled to sever their parental rights next month and they would never see their children again. According to local news reports young Brian, after a supervised visit with his children on Wednesday, August 1st, followed the SCF van that was taking his children back to their foster home. The van driver stopped at a rest area south of Roseburg, Oregon, on I-5. Allegedly, Brian, at gunpoint, rescued his children and drove off with the SCF van and switched vehicles later down the road.


Part 1
They care so damn much in Oregon. An anonymous tipster thot they looked skinny.



[basically this case boils down to some busybody calling 'child and family services' (and what faithful servants they are) because they thot one of these kids was skinny. The father finally has had it with the state's kidnapping of his kids, tells the evil meanies to get out of the car and drives a fourth of a mile to his own vehicle desperate to get out of that insane child stealing State.] Everytime I hear one of those PSA's telling you to rat out a family even if you only have suspicions I want to brick the TV. For the love of God think twice and then think again before you screw a family over like this.

Part 2
"Did anybody tell you to say (your father) pointed the gun, sweetie?" I asked. "Yes," came the diminutive response from the adorable little girl clutching her rag doll rabbit. "Who, sweetheart? Who told you to say that?" "He did," said Bethany, pointing directly at Deputy District Attorney Rick Wesenberg. The gasps from the courtroom audience brought a moment of suspense singularly lacking in the proceedings until that moment.

"Did that man (delivering as much accusation as I could load into that phrase as I waggled a finger at the profusely-sweating Wesenberg) also tell you to say your mommy was wearing a wig, Sweetie?" "Yes." "Do you know what a wig is, sweetheart?" "No."

[and with that coached testimony the state saddled a small girl with a future of knowing she sent her parents to jail for decades - B]


Part 3
Oregon statute that says you can't be charged with kidnapping your own kids.

But, he stubbornly refuses to abandon the charges of kidnapping the SCF workers. Brian told one worker to stand aside and the other to "get out of the car." That's it. Kidnapping, according to the DDA. Never mind the Oregon Supreme Court, which has said that such incidental interference with another's liberty while committing another crime is NOT kidnapping.

The Unauthorized Use charge seems likely to stick, but the DDA wants to stretch Brian's driving the state car 1/4 mile to where his own was parked into felony Robbery. Again, the Oregon Supremes have proclaimed that robbery requires an intent to permanently deprive another of the article stolen, so robbery seems an exagerration, at best.

"No Hugs...No Kisses...No Kidding. My mommy and daddy vacationed in Oregon and now all I have is this lousy t-shirt." The back says, "In Control We Freak...Visit Oregon...Lose Your Kids...Go To Jail...State vs. Brian and Ruth Christine...April 30, 2002...www.pclu.org."


Part 4
A system manned by good people, but which produces results that would never have been desired by anybody involved.

I think that the theme of unintended consequences may well apply well beyond the Christines' case, however. In a real sense, I think that is what the whole legal system has become, if not America altogether. Bad things happening to good people as a result of a system that has just gotten out of hand.
___________________________________________________

held in isolation and on suicide watch. They have lost everything....everything. Until yesterday, at least they still had each other. This verdict, however, is a state-mandated divorce, since she will be deported once released from prison and Brian will never be allowed a passport or entry to England (generally, no great loss, but that's where the three oldest Christine girls are, after all).

 
102Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 08:12
As the law is currently interpreted by mandated reporters, any type of sexual behavior may be reported as "inappropriate sexual behavior." There is no latitude for child play. This lack of common sense is further exacerbated by the frequent assumption that any type of behavior must have been learned at home, thus going from unjustified evaluation of child behavior to equally invalid conclusions about parents' culpability.


In one particular case a seven-and-a-half-year old boy was reported, by the principal of the school, as a sexual abuser because he "inappropriately touched" two playmates. Because of this report the child will be questioned about possible sexual abuse by his parents. Further, the parents will be subjected to the same type of questioning regarding the possibility of sexually molesting their child. It appears that there may be a tendency to jump to an unwarranted conclusion for what could possibly be nothing more than a case of innocent, although inappropriate child play. When the Grand Jurors voiced concern about this particular case, a manager responded with, "Where else would a child learn that type of behavior?" The jurors invited the CA/N manager to watch television.

Many within the department appear to overlook the fact that there are ways, other than sexual molestation, that children can be exposed to what is termed "inappropriate behavior." The jurors reviewed a case where a child was actually removed from the home based on a report from a child care provider. In this particularn case the child, age four, was alleged to have "French Kissed" another playmate. On the theory that this behavior could only have been learned at home, an allegation of child abuse was lodged against the father. The child was subsequently removed from the home because the mother would not believe the allegation and was therefore believed to be incapable of protecting the child. It was only after the father removed himself from the home that the child was returned to the mother. The parents have been financially ruined as all their assets have been funneled into efforts to end the nightmare.

Also in this particular case the Grand Jury has learned that the reporting child care director incorrectly reported the facts as relayed by a teacher. The teacher who witnessed the incident reported to the Grand Jury that the matter was blown out of proportion. The children did not kiss, and contrary to the report to DFCS the child had not been involved in a prior incident. The teacher also said she was contacted by phone by the District Attorney's Office and DFCS. However, they did not meet in person and a formal statement was not taken. She believes the reason for this was simply that she did not say what either of them wanted to hear.

___________________________________________________________________

In another case which the Grand Jurors reviewed, the principal of a school reported emotional abuse by a parent. After the principal let the student know that he would have to notify the parent of continued poor academic performance, the student said she would be afraid to go home if such a call was made. Based upon this conversation, the principal suspected emotional child abuse and made "the call" that changed the life of this family. The parent was later given an hour's notice of the detention hearing. He couldn't make it, and his daughter was taken from his care. This occurred in 1991 and, as of May 1993, the student remains out of the home. In its review of this case the Grand Jury did not find any reasonable evidence of abuse on the part of the parent. What was found was a parent who appeared to care greatly for his daughter and her welfare but would not admit to something he did not do. His refusal to admit to abuse was viewed as a lack of cooperation on his part; therefore, his child was not returned.

 
103Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 07:35
Forewarned is forearmed. You'd have to be a lawyer specializing in this stuff to avoid the pitfalls -
Don't Waive Your Right to a Trial

Parents do not have Constitutional Rights in the Juvenile Court. There is no right to due process or other protections, except at trial (adjudication). This is because the presiding Judge in the Juvenile court is supposed to make decisions in the best interests of the child as he/she interprets that to be. For over 40 years, no form of due process was required in the juvenile courts; attorneys weren't even allowed.

In 1996, the Supreme Court ruled that some due process was required in the juvenile court, but not all Constitutional protections.

...the purpose of the court's decision is not to require in the juvenile process all of the constitutional rights now mandatory in the criminal or even administrative process, but rather simply to require in adjudicatory hearings those rights required by the notions of fundamental fairness and due process under the fourteenth amendment.
— Kent v United States 383 U.S. 541, 562 (1966)

Thus, the only time parents have any due process rights is at the adjudication.

Adjudication is referred to as a trial, due process hearing, fact-finding hearing, jurisdictional hearing, etc. in various states. Going under different names makes it difficult for parents to determine which hearing is the adjudicatory hearing.

Whatever the state chooses to call it, it's the hearing where the state would present evidence and witnesses to prove their claim that you abused or neglected your child and you would present evidence and witnesses to the contrary. You can also cross-examine the state’s witnesses. This is the only time the state is required to prove their case and the only time the parents may present evidence in their defense.

It's also the first time you can appeal to a higher court. Even if the juvenile court finds against you, you can appeal to the state court of appeals. The appellate court is bound by due process of law and appellate court judges are commanded to look to the law and interpret it exactly as written.

The juvenile court judge is only commanded to act in the best interests of the child, regardless of what the law may say. They are given very liberal discretion to loosely interpret the law or even ignore it if they believe it to be in the child's best interests. Thus, it's in your best interests to get into the appellate court at the earliest possible point.

Because the adjudication is the only time the state is required to prove their case and the only time parents have due process rights, state agents make extreme efforts to get the parents to "stipulate" or "waive" the adjudication.

The stipulations can be worded in such a way that it doesn't sound like you've abused your child. For example, it might say that your child was injured and the injury was non-accidental but it doesn't say that you did it.

A stipulation might say the child has a medical condition and the parents are unable to manage it. This means neglect, the parents can’t or won’t meet their child’s needs. Wording doesn't matter.
***********Signing any stipulation, regardless of wording is an admission that you are guilty of abuse or neglect and as such the state was justified in removing your child.***********

The state only has the power to intervene when parents have abused or neglected their child or there is a substantial risk that they will abuse or neglect their child. They don’t have the power to intervene when children are sick or have a medical condition unless the parents are neglecting the child by failing to provide adequate care. Therefore, when you stipulate (which means to agree), you are saying the state was correct to intervene, which is admitting abuse or neglect.

The agency will often resort to extreme measures, such as withholding visitation to extract a stipulation from parents. Some examples:
In our community CPS takes the position that a parent must acknowledge both the abuse of their children and take responsibility for the abuse before the parent can have unsupervised visits with their children.
— Bart Rubin, PhD

the child protection community is virtually united behind the concept that the parent must acknowledge responsibility for the abuse and must clarify that abuse with the child before visitation or contact can be re-established.
— Frampton Durban, Jr, Chief Legal Counsel, Charleston County DSS, Charleston, SC
Do not succumb to these terrorist tactics! It's better to forego visitation for a short time while you make your case in court, than to lose your child forever in a termination of parental rights proceeding (under federal law, states must petition for termination of your parental rights at 15 months regardless of the progress you've made).

The best way to get your child home permanently is by requiring the state to prove their allegations against you in a court of law. If they fail to prove the allegations, the case is closed. The state is very aware of this fact, which is why they work so hard to get parents to waive their right to a trial.

From the Chief Legal Counsel above:
therapeutic denial reduction work and eventual clarification counseling is far more effective in reducing risk than litigation.
— Frampton Durban, Jr, Chief Legal Counsel, Charleston County DSS, Charleston, SC
In other words, it’s easier to withhold visitation and coerce parents into signing a stipulation than to proceed with litigation. The state knows they stand a good chance of losing at trial by failing to prove conclusively that you are guilty of the allegations.

If you sign a stipulation, you're waiving all your due process rights and can never again argue that you didn't abuse or neglect your child. This is perhaps the most important suggestion in this Guide!
 
104Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 07:39
The complete parents' guide to the system.
 
105Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 21556266
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 08:12
Just so you know, the lead sentence of almost every paragraph you posted is patently, objectively, false.

Parents do not have Constitutional Rights in the Juvenile Court False. The only "right" parents don't have is the right to a jury trial. That's not a constitutional right in these kinds of cases. Parents do have the right to court appointed counsel, due process, equal protection, etc.

In 1996, the Supreme Court ruled that some due process was required in the juvenile court, but not all Constitutional protections False. SCOTUS simply ruled that criminal due process was different than civil.


Going under different names makes it difficult for parents to determine which hearing is the adjudicatory hearing. If you're a deaf retard who refuses to listen to your attorney, the judge, etc. maybe.

This is the only time the state is required to prove their case and the only time the parents may present evidence in their defense Duh.

The juvenile court judge is only commanded to act in the best interests of the child, regardless of what the law may say. Patently false. The trial judge is bound by the law and the Constitution.

stipulation might say the child has a medical condition and the parents are unable to manage it. This means neglect, the parents can’t or won’t meet their child’s needs. Wording doesn't matter.
***********Signing any stipulation, regardless of wording is an admission that you are guilty of abuse or neglect and as such the state was justified in removing your child.***********
Patently false. A situation as described above would be a "dependency" case. That's means the parent, through no fault of their own, can not currently care for the child. Under "dependency" the parents must meet a much lower threshhold to regain custody of the child and could never lose their parental rights, unless there was subsequent neglect or abuse.

The state only has the power to intervene when parents have abused or neglected their child or there is a substantial risk that they will abuse or neglect their child. They don’t have the power to intervene when children are sick or have a medical condition unless the parents are neglecting the child by failing to provide adequate care Patently false. See the dependency description above.

The agency will often resort to extreme measures, such as withholding visitation to extract a stipulation from parents And if they do, they are breaking the law.

The best way to get your child home permanently is by requiring the state to prove their allegations against you in a court of lawSure it is. I love hearings.

That hate site is garbage, B.

 
106Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 08:34
The agency will often resort to extreme measures, such as withholding visitation to extract a stipulation from parents - B

And if they do, they are breaking the law. - MBJ

GAAAAAAHHHH!!! It is SOP. How many parents do I have to quote to prove it? A million?

For crying out loud they come right out and tell you they do!

For crying out loud they tell you it is the universal belief and practice of the CPS community!
The debate over whether a parent must acknowledge responsibility for child maltreatment is not a new one. It rages in my jurisdiction as well as most with which I am familiar. Here, however, the child protection community is virtually united behind the concept that the parent must acknowledge responsibility for the abuse and must clarify that abuse with the child before visitation or contact can be re-established.

Frampton Durban, Jr.
Chief Legal Counsel
Charleston County DSS
Charleston, SC



 
107Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 13:22
I want my real mom.
That's when I noticed that it was this young child at the foster home across the street sitting on the sidewalk in front of the house peering through the bars on the front gate crying over and over, "I WANT MY REAL MOM." Her voice hoarse and tears streaming down her little face, she simply sat there heartbroken and powerless and repeated her pitiable litany; "I WANT MY REAL MOM."

The "foster mother" was in the front yard watering the flowers and doing her best to ignore this absolutely gut wrenching spectacle of a defenseless child's heart breaking because she had been ripped from her mother. The foster mother was unable to continue ignoring the plaintive cries of this child who has been horribly injured by the meat grinder of CPS in Texas. The foster mother became frustrated when the child continued to wail out her heartbreak and despondence.

She told the little girl that she couldn't live with her mother because her mother's house wasn't clean. She then explained that her mother's dirty house is why she was taken from her mom in the first place. (So much for the almighty "confidentiality" crutch of CPS.) It is a violation of confidentiality regulations to disclose to a foster caregiver the reasons for a child's placement in foster jail.

Anyway, the little girl said that she wanted to go home to her REAL MOM again and again, crying all the while even though she had long since depleted her supply of tears and was on the verge of physical exhaustion.

The "foster mother" then asked her where her mother was and how she intended to get back there. The child said that her mother lives in Brownfield,(TX) and that she didn't know how to get there, she then repeated her litany of despair; "I WANT MY REAL MOM." This little girl then asked the foster mother to let her call her REAL MOTHER, to which the foster mother said "Do you have money to call your real mom?"(Insert sarcastic tone on the words "real mom") The result of this statement by the foster mother who was admittedly frustrated by the victim child's unremitting plea for her REAL MOTHER was a renewal of cries and wails of utter anguish from this 6 or 7 year old girl the like of which I have never heard. The sheer anguish and despair carried in this child's voice broke my heart and literally brought me to tears.
Ironically my son's ex-girlfriend tricked the local DCFS [her own words to my son] into getting removed from her natural parents. Her take on the experience was that the foster parents were only in it for the government check and the free maid service [her own labor].

At least someone's house will be clean.

At what price to the real mother and daughter?
 
108Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 13:26
Betty Stenzel

March 13, 2003 - Betty, whose children were taken by the state without even charging her with a crime, finally after all these years got to meet her children.

See, Betty spent the last several years of her life working hard to pay $400 a month in child support. Yet still Oregon's SCF never allowed Betty to be with her children she loved. She fought like crazy to see her kids and have them be with her.....But SCF only wanted Betty's money.

SHE finally won....Betty's kids got to see her today.... in a coffin...at her funeral.

It seems Oregon CPS finally decided it would be OK for the kids to have a supervised visit.

 
109Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 13:37
Blowback

The ultimate tragedy is that foster children are wounded by the forced separation from their natural parents. Delusional CPS agents think they are helping children, yet actually cause intense damage. The psyche of children taken from those they love is traumatized and disturbed. By the time fosterers get them, the worst institutional abuse is already done. The children are heartbroken, tortured, and angry. Most of the children just want to go home, and in fits of rage are not afraid to tell lies about those who keep them from their natural much-loved families.
Often a double tragedy occurs where the traumatized child turns around and falsely accuses the foster parent who they emotionally feel was to blame for losing their real parents.

 
110Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 14:18
You're Lying
 
111Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 14:45
Baldwin - against my better judgment, I went point by point with your initial post from your CPSWatch site snd showed how completely fallacious that site statement of law and fact are. Your response has been to Spach this thread with more anectdotal material from that joke of a site and another site linked therefrom. Nice job.
 
112Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 15:12
You have a strange sense of humor.
 
113Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 15:30
I humor you don't I?

;)
 
114Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 15:48
I really don't know which chills me to the bones more. The fact that there is an avalanche of DCFS abuse according to every official investigation I can find or that they can slip their conduct past guys like MBJ who I am positive is a wonderful perceptive intelligent guy.

Foster family blows whistle on DCFS and faces predictable retaliation.

Child fights removal from good foster parents and fears being sent back to former abusive foster home...

The child fought valiantly, going so far as to grabbing a can of bug spray and threatening to kill himself and the social workers.

  • He yelled at them, told them he was safe in this home and wanted to stay.
  • He demanded his rights.
  • He told them he knew they wanted to take him away and give him more pills so he wouldn’t have his say in court on Monday.
  • He cried, begged and pleaded saying he was having a birthday party on Sunday.
  • He said every time he finds some happiness, they come and take him.
  • He said he wanted to go home and he intends to tell the judge and they couldn’t stop him.
 
115Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 15:51
MBJ

You just in #105 brushed off as impossible the very thing DCFS officials brag about in #106.

That's funny.
 
116Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 16:12
So a 5 year old quote from some yahoo in SC on a site chalked full of demonstrably false and imtentionally misleading statements is what you base your argument that I don't know my daily business on? OK. I guess it wouldn't do any good to point out that that quote doesn't make it so (especially since we don't know if it refers to a pre or post adjudication phase), that even if that was his agencies policy in 1998, that his agency had no power to enact that policy without the approval of a judge at every step in the policy, etc. That would be another waste of my time.
 
117Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 16:17
For all I know the explanation is that MBJ is doing a great job, and his county has done a great job of recruiting DCFS workers who strike a perfect balance of concern for kids and concern for parents. For all I know the DCFS in his area doesn't care if it gets the federal bonus money for placing more kids that the previous three year average. For all I know his corner of the DCFS world doesn't reward workers with high removal rates and fire workers with low rates.

Would you care to share with us how the per capita removal rate in your jurisdiction compares with your state or the nation?
 
118Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 16:19
So a 5 year old quote from some yahoo in SC - MBJ

So that's what you call the general counsel of the DSS in that county?
 
119Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 16:22
That must explain the commity between your court and the DCFS then. They love being called yahoos then, eh? 8]
 
120Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 20:06
Poem by child victim of DCFS

DFC*

You sit there for hours
With nothing to do,
While they use their powers
To work against you.

They pick you apart
And tell all their lies.
They tear out your heart,
Ignoring your cries.

They think they're so cool.
They think they're so nice.
They're just like a mule,
And inside they're like ice.

You're never innocent,
No matter what you say.
They're like a mad elephant.
They'll stomp you anyway.

You'll never be free
From their owl eyes.
The DFC
Can mess up your lives.

Beware, Beware
Of their evil claws.
They really don't care
About any laws.

I really hope
You never will see,
And never have to cope
With how cruel they can be.

So stay in your houses,
And stay in your farms.
They'll rip your kids
Right out of your arms.

They'll put them in homes
You'll never see.
They'll leave them alone--
Just ask me.

Enough's been submitted
About this organization.
If they're permitted,
They'd tear up our nation.

By Esther Phillips, age 15 removed from parents and 9 siblings

*DFC stands for Division of Family and Children

Of course DFC is retaliating and threatening to jail the mom because her daughter's poem received so much public response.

 
121Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 20:10
Oregon doing their best to keep mother-daughter separate EVEN AFTER SHE TURNS 18!
 
122Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 21:23
DCFS orders family to accept back a molesting son returning from corrections facility or face jail time. Family begs DCFS to take molester into state custody to protect younger siblings. DCFS replies that it would be too hard to place 13 yr old molester. DCFS also notifies family that as soon as family takes back molester as ordered by DCFS, DCFS will be obligated to remove three younger siblings who are oh so easy to adopt out!
 
123Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38937219
      Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 07:08
of the last 24 posts in this thread, Baldwin has posted them. most of them are weepy weepy sob stories, and man, it just looks like baldwin is masturbating all over this thread.

i think most people here agree DCS is not perfect, and definitely needs some repair.

but it is absolutely necessary in this day and age - just like there are problems in the military and the police forces in this country - and i've made it pretty clear i don't like either - it's absolutely foolish to advocate abolishing them. they are necessary.

Baldwin - for every sob story you find here from some advocacy case, we'll find a story from a legitmate news source on kids who SHOULD have been taken from their parents, but weren't.

now, that may have happened in some cases because of oversight (hence, the case to help fix the problems, not abolish DCS), or because they were overly cautious because of all these morons out there who don't believe that there are children who need to be protected from their parents.

people make mistake. DCS is staffed with people. the courts make mistakes, most likely due to stupid red tape.

but someone has to watch out for the children. your home may be angelic and a haven for children worldwide.

but there are more than enough households in this country where kids get their hands dipped in scalding water as punishment, or beaten with hangers, and just knocked around so severely they end up with permanently damaged joints and bones.

and those are the ones that aren't killed.

parents suck baldwin. there's no test you have to pass to be one. you just gotta birth the kids out to qualify.

and some people just aren't qualified.
 
124Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 13:11
parents suck baldwin - Tree

What a truly revealing and repulsive phrase.

Conduct a war on family values for fourty years and you will produce some 'bad cases' with which to construct 'bad law'.

There is the classic Marxist MO rearing it's ugly head in contravention to it's supposed dead state. Namely: sabotage the system and then propose that your own solutions are the only way out.

there's no test you have to pass to be one - Tree

There are already tests for those poor souls who have met the DCFS and there will eventually be PC tests you will have to pass to raise your own kids. You can be dead certain that Christian values will be excluded.

Coming soon; a neo-pagan false utopia.
 
125Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 15:05
Baldwin - if you don't think it's possible for parents to suck, then you're definitely the one living in the Utopia of one's own mind.

once again, you don't read, or care to try to understand something at its base, simple terms.

i'll repeat.

there's no test you have to pass to be one.

that is 100 percent the law of God. all that is required to be a parent is to father or mother a child. whether one is a good or bad parent, sorry to say, is not for God to decide. that's for man and woman to decide.

as for Christian vlaues Baldwin, that just made me realize where you get these ideas...

Honor Thy Father and Mother even if they beat you senseless...spare the rod, spoil the child, all that crap?

Christian values are bull$hit, and thank God they're excluded, because there are a lot of other values - Jewish, Muslim, etce tc that are also as good, or bad, as Christian values.

but to act like Christian values are all that matters is to exclude everyone else.

and that ain't what it's about....
 
126Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Wed, Oct 15, 2003, 18:43
The taking of Logan Marr - PBS Frontline TV show.
Logan asked from the beginning when her mother would "get her back." That month, Logan was seen by a therapist five times. The therapist listed the themes in Logan's play as "Mommy and Daddy fighting; Mommy and Daddy losing their baby; Big sisters taking care of little sisters; and Someone took me away but I don't know why." According to Mary Beth's journals, Logan began to have raging temper tantrums. She writes, "Logan's outrage is still bad. The child has anger by the ton. Logan pushes and pushes and if I don't react, pushes further with whining and screaming and punching with closed fists and kicking."


All I want is my mommy!

Concerned that Logan might have been abused some time in her past, Mary Beth brought Logan for an evaluation to the Spurwink Clinic, which specializes in child abuse. Despite extensive examinations, counselors found no evidence of any physical or sexual abuse. They did recommend, however, that Logan receive counseling to cope with the separation from her mother.
__________________________________________________

After a physical incident between Mary Beth and Logan -- an incident both Mary Beth and the department refuse to discuss -- DHS moved quickly to get the girls into another foster home.
__________________________________________________

The girls, meanwhile, were settling in at Sally's. Though not rich herself, Sally was able to give Logan things that Christy had not: swimming lessons and dance classes. But Logan didn't seem happy. Her rages continued, and escalated. According to Sally, they were often particularly bad after visits with Christy. DHS notes from an October visit read:

Logan kept telling mom throughout the visit that she was her favorite person in the whole world. As the visit was ending, Logan ran to mom and said, 'I want to go home with you.' At one visit, Logan asked Christy if she knew what Sally looked like. Christy said, 'Yes, I've seen her,' and Logan responded, 'I don't like her.'
As Logan's behavior deteriorated, Sally found herself at a loss. Logan would rage out of control, screaming, kicking, and thrashing so violently that Sally was afraid she would hurt herself. Suddenly, all the confidence Sally had accumulated as a parent and a DHS caseworker seemed to vanish. "I was supposed to be trained," she told FRONTLINE. "I was supposed to be educated. How come I couldn't help her? How come I didn't know what to do?"

At their videotaped Christmas visit on Dec. 18, 2000, while a DHS supervisor sat listening, Logan stopped opening her gifts and told Christy that Sally had hurt her. She squeezed her cheeks together with one hand, and said, "She did this to me, and I cried, and it hurts me. She did it to my sister, too." When Christy tried to find out more about what happened, she says the DHS supervisor shook her head, forbidding her from going into detail about the incident. In early January 2001, during another supervised visit, Logan again told Christy that Sally had handled her roughly, wrapping her up in a blanket. Again, Christy was signalled not to pursue the matter.
__________________________________________________

According to Sally, Logan had been in one of her rages in the afternoon. "I asked her if she needed to scream and she said yes," Sally said. "I said, 'OK, well then let's put you some place where you can scream.'" Sally put Logan in an unfinished portion of her basement in a high chair.
Logan died from asphyxiation that night duct taped to a highchair in an unfinished basement.


Thank you compassion fascists.
 
127Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Wed, Oct 15, 2003, 18:59
In the USA DCFS agencies in 2001 meddled in the lives of 2 million children. In what insane fevered imagination is it possible that there are that many at risk children in this country?
 
128Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Wed, Oct 15, 2003, 20:56
The Big Picture
 
129James K Polk
      ID: 51010719
      Wed, Oct 15, 2003, 22:15
So you believe that 1.7 million children per year are taken by the government.
 
130Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 06:22
If I believed that I would have said taken instead of meddled and you know that. What was the point of that sophmoric baiting?
 
131Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 06:35
This is them bragging about intimidation inflicted in two million cases in one year.
 
132Tree
      Donor
      ID: 8927155
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 06:37
Baldwin - the point is that no system is perfect, but i believe that our current system works better than no system at all - that more lives are saved than are lost. for every horror story you can post, there are 100,000 stories that don't make the news because there's nothing newsworthy - just another family going about their business.

your irrational fear of the government taking your children is not just frightening unto itself, but also, well, irrational.

with probably close to 70 million American children, that's less than three percent who's lives are "meddled" in....
 
133Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 06:46
Let's put it like this Tree.

If I didn't like you I could destroy the next five years of your life with one phone call.

You would be guilty until proven innocent to each of the new case workers assigned to you every three months and I would be anonomous and entirely free of any liability on my own part.

You know I really don't like you much.
 
134Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 21556266
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 07:51
OK Baldwin. I have two small children. (A boy aged 7 and a girl aged 4) My name is Jubal Miller. I live at 730 College Hill Road, Waco, Kentucky 40385. The number for my local DCBS office is (859) 623-1024. Give 'em a call. Give it your best. Show me how wrong I am. Give me the horns. Put up or shut up. Ruin the next five years of my life. Go for it. I dare you. Otherwise, your paranoid, completely unsupported, rantings will continue to be pi$$ in the wind.
 
135Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 08:05
First I wouldn't actually do that to my worst enemy and second you obviously have an advantage the average parent doesn't have. You are an insider in the child kidnapping business. They might go easier on one of their own.
 
136Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 21556266
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 08:21
You are an insider in the child kidnapping business. They might go easier on one of their own

You are an idiot. As you wish, and as I should have done previously, I'll ignore your unsupported rants from now on. Once again, when called to the floor - you type out checks you can't cash. Why say something that you'll be backpeddling on in less than an hour. 'Course I don't know why people post things they wouldn't date say face to face, either. an insider in the child kidnapping business.? Any sane person (don't worry, you're disqualified)who sat through one day of DNA court, as I did yesterday, and heard the stories of abuse (which included the death of a three year old, left home after three petitions for neglect had been filed) would know just how stupid statements like yours are.

We have a crazy old lush who stumbles around town mumbling threats about aliens coming. When asked for proof - he gives a dumb look and just gets angrier. Then starts mumbling the same nonsense all over again. I ignore him too.
 
137Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 08:53
  • That is really sick that you would even ask me to do that which you know I consider the most reprehensible of actions.

  • How can anyone think a complaint against you would be handled the same as a DCFS anonymous complaint against anyone else?

  • The most innocent interpretation for your complete obliviousness to the problems in the system is that you are too close and can't see the forest for the trees.

  • The examples to prove my point are beyond counting but that won't stop me from trying.

  • I am not an idiot. I scored 99 percentile on most categories of most tests I have ever taken and will happily match you in any test of intelligence.

  • If I have a problem with state sanctioned kidnapping it is not without due cause. It is an emotional issue and just because you can point to horror stories on the one side, that does not excuse you from addressing the horror stories on the other side of the ledger.
 
138Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 09:05
Out of curiosity how do you even sleep at night when the children beg to be left with their parents and your system disagrees with them? Or do you not get to hear all the kids own positions on the matter?
 
139Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 09:31
he gives a dumb look and just gets angrier. Then starts mumbling the same nonsense all over again
 
140Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 09:33
Yeah it's just crazy when kids plead to be kept with their parents. Just falls off your back like water off a duck huh?
 
141Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 09:43
The Onkens and Lehmanns have joined 150,000 others in a class-action lawsuit against DCFS brought by the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law and a few private firms. [no chance MBJ will ever share their concerns aparently - B]

The suit seeks no money, said attorney Bob Lehrer, one of the
attorneys. "It's seeking only that the system be fixed," Lehrer
said.

What's broken, according to U.S. Federal District Court Judge Rebecca R. Pallmeyer, is how DCFS investigates child abuse
cases, and she's given the state 60 days to come up with a fix.

Those investigations, she said in a 102-page report, are
unconstitutional and harmful, mainly because DCFS needs only "credible" evidence to brand someone as an abuser.

As to how DCFS investigates those who work with children - including teachers and day-care workers - Pallmeyer noted that
74.6 percent of those accused of abuse by DCFS eventually were found to be innocent.

"This court is confident that this staggering expungement rate is due to the relatively low standard of proof required to indicate a
finding" of abuse, Pallmeyer wrote in her ruling.

Other aspects of the investigative process DCFS caseworkers employ, Pallmeyer wrote, are "not constitutionally adequate."

And, he added, the decision has national importance, as 48 states have child welfare systems similar to Illinois - systems he said Pallmeyer has now labeled "fundamentally flawed."

"The changes (DCFS must make) are going to be big ones," he said. "Their system is fundamentally flawed, so there has to be fundamental changes.
That federal judge can just keep muttering eh MBJ?


 
142Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 09:51
No DCBS, MBJ, but expect a couple of Dominos deliveries under the name "A. Gore" and "Billy, the Other Baldwin" in 30 minutes or less...
 
143Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 10:00
current estimates indicate that 75 percent of sibling groups end up living apart after they enter foster care. For most of them, it means losing the only significant relationship they have known.
But the most wrenching loss of all came when Amy was 12. Her social worker believed it would be in her best interest to live in a home with girls her own age. For the first time in her life, she and her sister were separated.

It was devastating for both of them. Amy's self-esteem plummeted because so much of it revolved around her ability to take care of her younger sibling. Anne, too, was destroyed by the move for she no longer had the only constant in her life. Her sister, in addition to being her best friend, had also been her consistent source of advice and approval.

Anne was later adopted by her foster parents and moved with them to another State. The sisters lost touch with each other. They also lost their ability to trust and to form lasting relationships when they became adults.

At 35, Amy says, "I will never forget the day I had to leave my sister. We were both crying, and I felt like the world was a terrible and hostile place. As the months went by, I could feel myself close up. The more I thought about what had happened to me, the more angry and bitter I became. If the social worker who was supposed to be concerned for me had the power to take away my sister, I could never trust anyone again."

Today, Amy and Anne are in contact with each other. They see each other from time to time, but they do not have the close relationship that they might have had they not been separated. Amy lives alone, insists she will never marry, and prefers living a solitary existence where no one can hurt her. Anne has been divorced twice and says that intimate relationships are impossible for her to manage. When someone gets too close, she unconsciously sabotages the relationship.

 
144Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 10:11
Baldwin - after reading your threat to me - whether actual or just trying to "make a point", it was a threat nonetheless - i'm starting to understand your paranoia about losing your kids.

anyone who would make that sort of threat about anyone's children (as of the moment, i have no kids i know about, and as we get a tad older, we're thinking more and more about adopting a child or two someone else didn't want for whatever reason) is probably unfit as a parent.

yes Baldwin, make no bones about it - i definitely fear for your children, because their father comes across as a rambling mad man who thinks the government is out to get them.

maybe other people have felt this way as well, and already made that phone call, and that's why you're terrified of men in shades and black suits swooping down and taking your kids away.

you're f*cking crazy baldwin, you really are.
 
145Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 10:26
The only reason I am not afraid to speak the truth is because my kids are already raised. I am speaking for those who cannot for fear of the system.
 
146Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 10:27
not only are you crazy, but you're full of horsesh!t too...
 
147Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 10:27
Oh and I did not threaten you Tree. The system where any anonymous enemy can destroy your life is what threatens every parent.
 
148Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 10:40
Typical injustice...
The supervisor, Blanche Russell, was a friend of mine from college. She pulled me aside and asked me about the case. I told her everthing, the condition of the home, no food, sex abuse stories that would make you sick, and the alleged perpetrator was the landlord who allowed the mother to rent two rooms in his home. She turned to me and said, "Paulla, when a perpetrator is in the home and they know CPS is inlolved, they will not harm a child." "And, like Wendy [Bergsman], my former Assistant Program Manager says, " 'No child ever died from a good screw.' " I was in shock and couldn't believe what I heard. I told Blanche Russell that, that was a chance I was not going to take. I filed this statement in grievance #1. Nothing was done. In the grievance they found "no wrongdoing by Mrs. Bergsman.

Blanche Russell has been promoted to Assistant Program Manager.

Wendy Bergsman has been promoted to the Administration at the Central Office with the Assistant Directors.

The whistleblower Paulla Garcia has been fired
 
149Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 11:01
From the belly of the beast...
I got sent to a place called E.O.A.M.T.C (Eastern Oregon Adolescent Treatment Center). I saw a lot of things I don’t want to talk about. Some pretty morbid things. Most of all though the people in that center. I’m not going to name any names. These people thought that. Well you see they would take normal NORMAL teenagers into this treatment center and try to convince them that they had some kind of mental illness. Most of them didn’t have a mental illness at all.
__________________________________________________

I still have scars from being restrained on that floor.
__________________________________________________

I never like to talk to those people because they thought they had everything figured out. Some of them were so strongly into believing the state it would make you sick. This is where they dreamed up I was PTSD and they said my step dad made me that way. This is bogus crap. He never did anything bad to me and they made up this crap and got him in bad trouble with the SCF and made him sick. He lost his businesses and almost died. Even after all that, he wasn’t mad at me and he took me back in and is trying to get me job skills and a GED. The state didn’t do anything but screw me up and keep me on bad drugs to keep me screwed up.
__________________________________________________

Every time something was to go wrong in the foster home I was always told to keep my mouth shut, it’s always a “BIG SECRET”. What they’re really telling you is keep your mouth shut so we don’t get in trouble. To tell you the truth the people that I met in these foster homes. I don’t ever EVER want to see them again.

Oh another thing in the article in the newspaper they called me a monster. They’re the monsters they’re the people destroying citizens families.
__________________________________________________

When I was getting beat up in these foster homes (GETTING BRUISES) I was always told to shut up.

Oh, when I was in treatment at EOAMTC the staff their put a lot of things in there documents that where not even true. They just had to keep making up stories to keep you in their custody. Also when I was when I was in this treatment center they kept switching my meds like crazy. Like I was a physco or something. I learned a lot about these meds when I was going there. First of all!!

*Zoloft- Makes you violent.

*Wellbutrin- Gives you a major boost in your sex drive.

*Depkote- Makes you where you Cannot sleep, you see hallucinations.

*Desepramin- You cannot sleep, and you hear things.

The state didn’t put me on these medications to help me. They put me on them to DESTROY me. The state never helped me. They just always made it worse for me. When I got back to my mom and step dad, we quit the medicine. I have been of the drugs know for over 2 months and I am thinking lots better. And staying out of trouble.

I learned a lot of things from being in foster homes. The main thing though was when I got out. To STAY as far away from the state as I can from now on.


 
150Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 11:21
Baldwin - Oh and I did not threaten you Tree. The system where any anonymous enemy can destroy your life is what threatens every parent.

in post 133 you said:

If I didn't like you I could destroy the next five years of your life with one phone call.

You would be guilty until proven innocent to each of the new case workers assigned to you every three months and I would be anonomous and entirely free of any liability on my own part.

You know I really don't like you much.


sounds like YOU threatened me, not the system. i don't even see the word system in there. If someone here said "be careful. your wife might end up with a bullet in her head if you don't shut your trap" and she ends up dead with a bullet in her head, who do you think is gonna get investigated?

i won't sink to your level of insanity and desperation Baldwin. it's a sad sight to see a man losing his grip on reality, so i really can't harbor any of the same thoughts of you that you have of me.

instead, i really feel a lot of pity for you. it's truly a sad, sad thing.
 
151Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 12:12
Definitions from those who know...

Case File

Your life condensed in a folder that you never get to read that your social workers construct

A bunch of papers, written up by someone that I have met twice in 18 years, summarizing my life based on assumption, rather than facts, stored away for the counties viewing pleasure.

Converting the perceived life experience of a person placed in foster care into legal jargon that professionals can understand or refer to in the DSMR III or other case references.

Foster Care

Foster care is a field for the young save the world types. Social workers can feel better about themselves by helping the have nots (children who come from the wrong side of the tracks.)

supposed to be good care for abused neglected children but in my experience I was abused in the system so I think it sucks

Clueless well-meaning system that sometimes adds to the trauma a child has already suffered. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

money rackets,live in day care but worse because they don't have to answer to a prodding Parent's questions everyday!

Homeless.

an attempt to steal your soul, and self respect

slavery meets kidnapping

Social Workers

The one who takes you out of your real home and the one who can put you back. One who knows too much about the family. The one who stands between you and the rest of your family.

Someone who drags you from home to home...AKA God. Your whole sense of control lies in your social worker's hands.

i dont know about you, but this meant someone whom i hated and somehow or other managed to screw up my life.

a person that is suppose to help you, but never returns your calls-totally disrespects you. she was only there for the adults in my life I guess becuase they have more power than I did

Came once a year. Changed often. Just a word, part of the system, not helping you

Voice mail.

A social worker......well this one I can't be so nice about. They come to their own conclusions without gathering enough info on the subject. You're OK to them as long as you don't bother
them with a problem.

Person who doesn't really 'get it',but pretends to.

A person who is book smart with no real life
expierence to draw upon

dangerous

Someone who knows how to do what they are told to
keep their job.

the ghost that appeard occasionally to move me from home to home, the individual that forced me to talk about their agenda and as a result forced me to be superficial

a person who is assigned to help you but sometimes
treats you as if they just don't want to deal with you.

A best friend and enemy during the years of foster care

A person that gets paid, never to know
the child(ren), in his or her care.

An individual usually with profound problems of their own who rarely has children but does have fixed (often wrong) ideas about what is "Normal" and "in the best interests" Such individuals are often so out of touch with reality that they end knowingly hurt children so they can "help". These anti-social workers often try to manipulate children to "like" them more than they "like" their parents


Foster Parent

somebody who has a lot of slaves

the person in charge of collecting the money.

powerful abuser

Placement that brings huge dollars into the system
so everyone but the real family can benefit.

group that runs the gamut from somewhat good and necessary to scum collecting money at the expense of families

Personally, I preferred my real parents...true, they were abusive too just like the foster parents but at least they were related.


Guardian Ad Litem

a person that is suppose to give you a voice, but never listens to your voice

Someone with more power than all the rest and
an ego to match.

a liar

Manipulation

when your social worker and gal acts like they keep regular contact with you when they go to court, so they look good to the judge and others so their recommendations will be accepted
 
152Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 12:25
MBJ - i'm realizing now that post 139 may be the most accurate post EVER posted on rotoguru.com...this is really, really, sad and scary....
 
153Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 12:30
New Jersey agrees to create independent panel to oversee its Division of Youth and Family Services as part of sweeping settlement to lawsuit that accused state of endangering lives of its foster children; researchers hired by Children's Rights, which brought suit, were given access to state files during discovery proceedings, and they reported that one in 10 children in foster care were abused and one in 5 did not receive proper services for their medical needs
 
154Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 12:38
Statistics - Foster Survivors

There are more than half a million children and youth in the U.S. foster care system, a 90% increase since 1987.

Three of 10 of the nation’s homeless are former foster children.

80 percent of prison inmates have been through the foster care system.

Children are 11 times more likely to be abused in State care than they are in their own homes.

Children died as a result of abuse in foster care 5.25 times more often than children in the general population. 2.1 percent of all child fatalities took place in foster care. While this may seem like a relatively low number, we must consider the contrast in population between children in the general population versus children in foster care. In 1997, there were nearly 71 million children in the general population (99.6%), but only 302 thousand in state care (.4%) in state care. As state care is supposed to be a 'safe haven', the number of fatalities should be less or at least equal to what it is in the general population of children. By this standard, there should have been less than .4% of child fatalities occurring in foster care, however, there was 5.25 times that amount. (31 states reporting)
 
155Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 13:33
LOL. this is great! keep it coming Baldie.

i haven't laughed this hard at the rantings of a crazy man since the mute begger on my subway train violently shook his finger at me for not giving him any spare change!!!
 
156Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 13:40
PD post 142: If you can get Dominoes to deliver to my house, I gladly pay for the pizza.
 
157Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 14:00
Lawyer's eye view that somehow MBJ has completely missed.
I have been working extensively in this area of law for approximately two (2) years. All of the cases that I am working on do not involve children suffering from broken bones, bruises or starvation. In fact, most of the cases that I am involved in regard parents that merely spanked their children by giving the children one or two swats on the clothed behind, parents who have physically defended themselves from a physically violent teenager, parents who argued in front of their children, recently divorced single parents, parents with low incomes, parents who have failed to take their child to a doctor for mere cold symptoms such as sniffles and mild congestion, or parents who owned pornographic materials stored in a safe place where the children broke into and viewed the materials.

According to FIA, the present state of law is that:

1) Parents cannot spank their child. Spanking, even with clothes covering the bottom, is severe physical abuse. Parents are only to use time out, reasoning and loss of privileges.

2) Parents cannot engage in physical self defense to protect themselves from a physically hostile teenager. An act of self defense by a parent is severe physical and emotional abuse. Parents are to use reasoning, time out and loss of privileges only and must sacrifice their physical safety for their violent teenager's safety.

3) Parents cannot argue or talk about adult subjects, such as family finances, in front of their children. These are subjects that the child has no control over and creates extreme emotional distress in the child. FIA has classified this area as emotional or environmental abuse and/or neglect of the child.

4) Parents with low income are neglecting their children's basic needs.

Low income parents cannot provide for the proper medical, physical or emotional needs of their children due to their limited income. The parents' failure to obtain middle income jobs means environmental, medical and emotional neglect.

5) Parents that fail to take their child to the family physician for colds, flu, sniffles and mild congestion, or parents who fail to obtain a family pediatrician are neglecting the medical needs of their children. FIA has classified this as medical neglect.

6) Parents who own pornographic materials, such as magazines, books, video tapes, and conceal such materials from their children have created environmental and emotional neglect of their children. Parents who own and hide such material run the risk that children will find these material and view them causing emotional harm to their children. FIA has classified this as environmental neglect.

7) Divorced, single parent families seem to be targeted by FIA as high risk environments for emotional and environmental neglect. Most single parent families are low income and of course, according to FIA, cannot provide for the basic needs of the children as measured against middle income standards.
I challenge every parent here to carefully examine each of those pretexts for taking kids and tell me their kids are safe.

Single parents work outside of the home, leaving their children unattended or with "inappropriate care takers" (neighbors, older siblings, grandparents, relatives) causing environmental and emotional neglect of the child. Single working parents are unable to clean their homes "appropriately" and leave their homes cluttered, disorganized, and untidy (i.e. beds unmade, dirty clothes on floors or hampers, dirty dishes in the sink from breakfast, unswept or unvacuumed floors and carpets, etc.) which the family must return to in the afternoon or evening that is classified as environmental neglect.

Basically, single parents tend more to their needs (i.e. working outside of the home) that to the needs of their children which is classified as emotional and environmental neglect.

Ironically, FIA complies a list of single parent households from the Friend of the Court, sends prevention workers to the homes of such families and initially offers the families free, voluntary services through their prevention program. Such services include free parenting classes, free nutrition programs, free household budgeting programs, free employment training programs, and WIC.

The social workers in these programs compile information on the family and home for FIA. Basically, when you allow these workers to enter your lives and your home, you are allowing FIA to build a PS (Protective Services) record against you for child neglect which leads to further child protective proceedings in the Probate/Family Court which will ultimately result in the removal of your children and the children being placed in foster care. These workers are not hired to help you, they are hired to make a case of child neglect against you.

Why are families being targeted by FIA. Most people have the misconception that concerned citizens report child neglect and abuse. This is untrue! A small percentage of my cases involve reports of neglect and abuse from neighbors, family members, friends and school officials. In fact, the majority of my cases involved the family receiving some form of voluntary services from FIA, such as the free programs listed above. In the majority of cases, school officials, such as teachers and counselors, never suspected child abuse or neglect in the families that were prosecuted. Moreover, in most cases the family physicians never suspected child abuse or neglect in the families prosecuted. Families are targeted because FIA must justify its need for State and Federal grants to keep its workers employed.
__________________________________________________

During 1996, Clare County removed 50% of the children in the county for neglect and abuse in the home. It is very hard to comprehend that 50% of the parents in Clare County are neglecting and abusing their children. Clare County is a "demonstration county" that is a pilot county for The Binsfield Laws supported by Federal Grants. These programs involve privatizing the foster care system. The foster care program hires private industry to service the foster care needs of the county children removed from the home.
__________________________________________________

How does the system work? FIA initially offers families free, voluntary services through prevention services to the families on the FOC (Friend of the Court files, AFDC files, Employment Security Commission files, Social Security files, etc.) such as free parenting classes, free nutrition programs, free homemaker services, free budgeting classes, free employment training programs, etc. The prevention worker works closely with the family to coordinate these free services by meeting with the family in their home on a regular basis, once or twice per week. While working with the family, the worker identifies problems areas that put the children at risk for abuse and neglect so as to qualify the family for these free services, such as poor parenting skills, homemaker skills, budgeting skills, and employment seeking skills.

The flip side of this arrangement is that the worker is building a case of neglect and abuse against the parents. Most problems identified are lack of bonding with the children and nurturing due to the parents' participation in these free programs. Basically, the parents are putting their needs before the children's needs by focusing on their problems as identified in their participation in these programs. Furthermore, workers in these programs work in tandem with FIA to identify other risk factors such as poor parenting skills, why else would a parent take a free parenting class if they themselves have admitted to having poor parenting skills. Voluntarily entering into these programs is an actual admission to poor parenting, nutrition, homemaker, budgeting, or employment seeking skills that put the child at risk for neglect and abuse that lay the foundation for child protective proceedings in the Probate/Family Court.

The Courts believe that the FIA workers are the professionals and take their word as gold. The parents cannot defend against FIA. The testimony and statements mean nothing in the Probate/Family Court. In fact the Court can issue an emergency pick up order for the children based on only FIA's statements in an ex-parte hearing conduct by the judge and the FIA worker.

The parents are not present during these hearings. The Court will issue an ex-parte emergency order allowing the FIA work to enter the home or child's school to remove the child from the parents custody. The parents do get a hearing approximately two weeks later after the removal of the child but FIA is only required to prove that probable cause exists that the children are at risk of neglect and abuse if they remain in the home.

Approximately 90 days later the parents may have a trial to determine whether by a preponderance of the evidence that the children are at risk to abuse or neglect if they are returned to the home. Most parents plea to abuse or neglect upon FIA's promise that if the parents plea and engage in services they will get their children back sooner. Most parents plea to charges that they have a temper, they have beaten their children by merely spanking them, they have failed to provide the child with medical attention when they had cold symptoms, or they are unable to provide for the basic needs of the child because they are temporarily unemployed. The Court then takes jurisdiction over the children, places them in foster care and orders the parents to follow the Parent/Agency Agreement to be drafted by FIA. FIA then engages in a lengthy and vague process of ordering the parents to engage in specific services, such as individual counseling, parenting classes again, anger management classes and counseling, psychological evaluations, drug and alcohol testing, classes and counseling, etc. Once parents complete these services, FIA informs the parents, usually during a court proceeding that they have not dealt with the proper issues in these programs that initially led to the removal of the children or the parents have not satisfactorily completed the programs because they will not or are not mentally able to comprehend their actions and the affect of their actions that have harmed their children. It is a no-win situation. FIA is in complete control of the interpretation of whether the parents have successfully completed the Parent/Agency Agreement.

Furthermore, if the parents elect to participate in FIA's services with their hired agencies, then the parents never successfully complete the Parent/Agency Agreement. These agencies are FIA's hired hands that build a case against the parents. If the parents elect to engage in services provided by professionals of their choice or referred by their HMO or other health care providers, then the parents must pay enormous amount of money for these services and for these professionals to come to court on their behalf to testify. More importantly, the Court views parents hired witnesses as hired hands and discounts any testimony given by these professionals as being adversarial, unbelievable and hired hands of the parents. FIA and some of the Court have gone as far as accusing the parents of failing to comply with the Parent/Agency Agreement by engaging their own professionals for service which has been deemed grounds for termination of parental rights. It is a no win situation that fails to focus on the best interest of the child.

 
158Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 14:13
I somehow missed it, B, because each of her points, 1-7 are totally false. A lot of paranoid fabrications slip by those of us living in this place we call reality.

My God, B, your using some low rent ambulance chaser's resume/ad/client slocitation as your information source?

Tell you what, if your interested, start a new thread and I will detail the facts and circumstances of every removal I do, in detail, and let you decide for yourself who's kidnapping children.

BTW, you can still drop that dime on me. I have nekkid pictures of both of my babies + I use corporal punishment. If your sources were correct, I'd be doomed. There are plenty of caseworkers who don't like me for the times I've checked them for being overreactive, so go for it.
 
159Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 14:22
During 1996, Clare County removed 50% of the children in the county for neglect and abuse in the home.

This doesn't phase your confidence in the system one iota does it?
 
160Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 14:31
Given the fact that your source for that, just like the sources you've used in the past in thei thread are totally unreliable (witness that almost every objectively verifiable fact that they pas off, i know to be false - her i-7 list, for example) why would I take her unsupported statement as anything more than another fear-mongerer's tall tale.

But, if that were true, not knowing anything at all about Clare County, MI, I say that they needed to close that office down. I wonder, out of the blue, if Claire County contains an Indian Reservation?
 
161Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 14:36
It's the most boring map I've seen:

Clare County, Michigan
 
162biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 14:37
Amish?
 
163Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 14:52
I have read countless cases involving most of those points 1-7 that you claim to not be false.

If only you were correct.

On the spanking issue, not even a state as socially conservative as Utah was able to pass a law that explicitly allowed mild spanking. It most certainly is a grounds they use against parents.
 
164Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 14:53
I have read countless cases involving most of those points 1-7 that you claim to be false.

If only you were correct.

On the spanking issue, not even a state as socially conservative as Utah was able to pass a law that explicitly allowed mild spanking. It most certainly is a grounds they use against parents.
 
165Tastethewaste
      ID: 418201314
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 14:58
According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, about 90 percent of U.S. parents spank, and about 59 percent of pediatricians in a 1992 survey said they support the practice. link

So why dont 90 percent of parents lose their child and 59% of pediatricians lose their jobs?
 
166Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 15:04
Umm...because spanking is not grounds for losing your child. Beating you child to a bloody pulp is. What Baldwin's hate sites do is take a case of the latter, pretend like its the former and then say that the rule is that you can't spank your child. They then find on anomolous case of a DCBS worker doing a bad job and then say "look, here's how the "system works." My 2nd grader sees through that kind of crap Baldwin, why don't you?
 
167Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 15:06
A more recent survey shows pediatricians "Generally oppose the use of corporal punishment by parents, but an occasional spanking under certain circumstances can be an effective form of discipline." Summary results

I don't see the numbers for parents who spank at all on the AAP site.

pd
 
168Tastethewaste
      ID: 418201314
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 15:11
right, mbj, that was my point
 
169Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 15:17
Because they have to raise the water to boiling gradually so the TtW's of the world don't notice.
 
170Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 15:20
You guys are really this blind. It is obvious what is going on. Nation after nation have already completely outlawed spanking. The same sorts of activists that have destroyed child rearing in those countries are just as active here.
 
171Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 15:27
I think they've outlawed vicious spanking, which has no demonstrative discipline value at all.

Of course, it should come as no surprise that a country with capital punishment still wavers on the question of spanking even being effective.

pd
 
172Tastethewaste
      ID: 418201314
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 15:29
from that link
Is it illegal to spank your kids? The answer is no-but parents who spank must be very careful to avoid running afoul of the law. Colorado law defines child abuse to include any case in which a child exhibits evidence of skin bruising, bleeding, failure to thrive, burns, fractures, etc.

So you can spank your kids as long as you dont spank them until they get bruised up, or you spank them so hard you break a bone...you said

On the spanking issue, not even a state as socially conservative as Utah was able to pass a law that explicitly allowed mild spanking.

Now youre back peddling saying its gradually going to happen where spanking is outlawed because activists are coming after spankers?
 
173Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 17:03
Many parents have similar stories of emotionally draining encounters with the DCFS. Steven Ash, (not his real name) an indulged 14-year-old, sassed his mother in a moment of disrespect. The boy's comments caused his father to raise his hand and warn: "You better watch your language or I'll cuff you on the side of the head." The boy accepted the challenge, so the father kept his promise and cuffed him, more in fun than anger. He then gave the boy a helping boot in the rear and told him to mow the lawn. In seconds, the incident was over and forgotten. But a neighbor who had spied the raised hand and heard the father's threatening tone dutifully reported the matter to DCFS. The next day, the boy was yanked out of school and interrogated for three hours by DCFS officials who threatened to place the boy in a foster home. Steven's mother, who had to be sent to bed with a sedative that night, said she had never been so distressed in her life. "These people from DCFS have no idea how they disrupt people's lives," she says. [They do. They just don't care. -RT]

 
174James K Polk
      ID: 51010719
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 20:00
Baldwin, believe it or not, post 129 was not baiting in the least. It was in response to post *128*, in which you linked to a site that says:

Did you know that 4600 children are seized from their parents EVERY DAY in this country by our government ?
Do the math.
 
175Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 20:32
Well I don't know how each of those figures was arrived at or what exactly they include. One could be talking about temporary as well as permanent seizures and the other could be talking about the permanent revokation of all parental rights.

The two million per decade was a calculation I made based on figures from CPSwatch which is the oldest and most respected of the "child protective services" watchdog group.
 
176Tree
      Donor
      ID: 309101618
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 20:46
cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo
 
177James K Polk
      ID: 51010719
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 20:46
Well I don't know how each of those figures was arrived at or what exactly they include. One could be talking about temporary as well as permanent seizures and the other could be talking about the permanent revokation of all parental rights.

That's exactly why these sites you link to are worse than useless. Their tone is a dead giveaway; their intent is not to inform, it is to provoke fear. They are misinformation at best, and disinformation at worst.
 
178Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 21:25
So what's wrong with the tone here?
 
179James K Polk
      ID: 51010719
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 21:34
Well, I haven't read the content, but not heading up the page with "Government wants your children" and then going into red scare type is certainly a good start :)
 
180Tree
      Donor
      ID: 309101618
      Thu, Oct 16, 2003, 22:00
i can't even get past the name of the website...

"abolish adoption"??!?! what kind of horsesh!t is that???

as someone who will probably adopt because:

1. my girlfriend and i are getting to the age where pregnancy and birth become more and more risky
2. there are a lot of kids out there who are neglected, abandoned, and unwanted by their birth parents who could be giving a good loving home

...i'm pretty disgusted and offended that anyone would even name a website abolish adoption, much less advocate such a thing.

that, for starters, is what is wrong with the tone....

 
181Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 03:52
1) Find me better numbers if you can.

2) Read what the organization actually says.

3) I'm pretty disgusted that you think there are that many parents who don't want their kids or that kids are a commodity that you can just pick up if you feel like it.
 
182Tree
      Donor
      ID: 309101618
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 07:14
i've got some great numbers...i'm partial to:

8 - "wouldn't it be great, if you could skate, a figure eight"

any multiple of five - "5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100readyornothere i coooooooooome!!"

any multiple of three - "3-6-9...12-15-18...21-24-27.........30!!!"

yes sir, Math rock rocks...not as cool as "conjunction junction, what's your function, hooking up words and phrases and clauses..." but cool nonetheless...

2. You don't have to read what it actually says...if the name of the website was killdarkies.com or deathtochristians.com i wouldn't need to read what they say either...

3. this deserves a big, gigantic, in bold, FVCK YOU and tells me you know ZERO about anything involving adoption.

there are plenty of kids in this world who are abandonded for any number of reasons - among them are parental drug abuse, parent death (yes baldwin, parents die and sometimes leave children as orphans!!), simple disdain, or, turn a blind eye if you'd like Baldwin, gender.

yep, that's right. kids sometimes get abandoned because of gender.

and you stupid ignorant freak - let's say there's a 16 year old girl who gets pregnant - she's not really ready to be a parent, but there are so many people out there who have terrified her about the option of abortion, so she chooses to have her baby and give it up for adoption, but apparently, there are some real whackos out there who are against both abortion and adoption....

i'd also like to point out that you're the first person in this thread to refer to children as a "commodity". in fact, you're the first person i've EVER heard refer to children as a commodity.

Baldwin, every time i can't think that you'll top yourself, you do so, in stunning, asinine, and completely insane fashion.
 
183Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 10:32
I got it MBJ!

as someone who will probably adopt - Tree

Next time you take someone's kids because they are drug addicts you could try getting them into Tree's foster care. Then those drug using parents can actually pay child support to Tree. This will really come in handy when Tree has to purchase drugs! As he's stated numerous times this is something he just might be doing himself. Try looking in any drug thread [#41 for example].

Of course maybe Tree is smarter than that and decides to save the child support payments and put it towards the 60K it will take to adopt the kids from the drug addict's family. That's right we can make them pay Tree for the privilege of taking their kids from them permanently!

Let's take kids from one family under the pretext that they do drugs, and give them to another drug using family.

If the kids manage to somehow avoid reactive attachment disorder, [which is the debilitating rage and madness associated with having been ripped from your family] maybe they can give Tree some pointers on rolling doobies or share some other tidbits they have learned from their "other" family who also used drugs.

Yeah maybe I am insane, they say insanity is a sane reaction to an insane world.
 
184Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 10:41
I don't think you're insane, Baldwin. I think you have so much of your self-worth invested in these hokey theories you've developed and subscribed to over the years that you subconsciously allow yourself to lower your threshold for what makes up a convincing argument. You're no different from any other common extremist. Well, nonviolent ones, anyway.
 
185Pancho Villa
      Donor
      ID: 533817
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 10:41
I picture Tree as more of a bong instead of doobie guy.
 
186Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 10:47
Don't quit your day job MITH. You'll never make it as a shrink.
 
187Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 10:52
Baldwin - Next time you take someone's kids because they are drug addicts you could try getting them into Tree's foster care. Then those drug using parents can actually pay child support to Tree. This will really come in handy when Tree has to purchase drugs!

yep, certifiable.

when i adopt, i don't want child support from anyone's parents. i want to provide a good stable home, with good stable parents, for one or two kids that weren't dealt much luck when it came to their birth parents, who gave them up for any multitude of reasons...

it's too bad your kids didn't have two stable parents...

additionally, i'd like to see where in that thread it says that i smoked any dope recently.

if you must know, i do smoke now and then. i think the last time i smoked was new year's eve.

it's just not something i have time for anymore, nor something i desire to do with any regularity.

i love seeing a sick man with dementia taking a post of humour and twisting it into something entirely different.

oh, and by the way, on new years eve, it was a doob. never liked bongs much. ;o)
 
188Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 10:55
Actually, I think MITH is dead-on. That Sutton book - I can't believe anyone takes his "proof" seriously. These websites your using for your anti-DCBS propaganda are full of more holes than a paper canoe in a hail storm but you go for them hook, line and sinker. Take a step back, man.
 
189Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 10:56
I am just amazed all these drug users on this site have no problem with a system that steals kids from drug using parents.
 
190Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 13:18
You know Baldy, you really do a severe disservice to these children that you claim to care so much about. I certainly don't doubt that there are those who exploit the system, but by emphatically embracing every piece of anti-DCBS propaganda that you come across, you undermine your efforts in your failure to seperate the legitimate cases of corruption and abuse from the crap. No different from your position on general environmentalism or PETAs position on animal cruelty. It takes a showing of objectivity to convert most skeptics.
 
191Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 13:22
You would think a showing of a clear and present danger to every parent would be sufficient.
 
192Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 13:29
Baldwin - the flaw in your logic - if it can even be called logic - is that you seem to presume that only adoptive parents are capable of these henious crimes that you ramble on about.

somehow, in your skewed world birth parents, perhaps by some birthright, can't possibly commit horrors on their own children.

any adult - any person - is capable of this - even you, oh high and mighty baldwin.

then again baldwin, you've proved to me your insanity and idiocy by not having any sort of concept as to the adoption process for adults who, for whatever reason, cannot have their own children, or even, simply prefer to adopt to give a child a chance at a relatively normal life.
 
193Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 13:30
That's the thing Baldy, you don't show a clear and present danger. You show a handful of anecdotal (usually one-sided) items and present them with largely inapplicable statistics and try to force us to believe that what you show in anecdotes is happening to 200,000 children per year in America. Just like with your anti-environmentalism (or many pro-environmentalists, for that matter); if you'd show an eagerness to seperate the valid concerns from the crap, you'd have a lot more credibility.

It's not surprisiong that you are blind to this great flaw of yours. Extremists never recognize themselves as such.
 
194Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 13:32
I have sons in from Minnesota momentarily so you can natter on by yourself a while Tree.
 
195biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Fri, Oct 17, 2003, 17:26
Nothing like feeding the fire:

Perhaps little Rafeal shouldn't have been returned...

Braddock said although the death is a tragedy, it's not an indication that the agency is putting the reunification of broken families before child safety.
 
196Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 16:12
Suspicions of Child Abuse -- Gleaned From Writing of Term Paper, Damage Career, Life
 
197Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 16:39
From the article:

"During the trial, the university's lawyer defended the actions of the professor and the department by saying the case study had not been properly footnoted, and further argued that what happened to Ms. Young, in being unwittingly caught up by these allegations, was a consequence envisioned by those who drafted the province's Child Welfare Act.

"They knew people might be wrongly suspected," said Wayne Bruce, who suggested that the jury finding in Ms. Young's favour could have a chilling effect on whether people continue to report their suspicions of abuse. "If people like Wanda Young get hurt, that's a price society has to pay."


Doesn't sound like great legal advocacy to me, but I don't mean to completely denounce or ridicule this attitude. It's relevant to posts like Baldwin's 173, which I am prepared to take at face value. Society has determined (at least in Ontario) that a certain number, even a large number, of false/exaggerated accusations are worth it, in order to get more completely at the genuine incidences of child abuse that exist, to ensure that they cannot take place in silence and anonymity.

I would contribute more to this thread, as I have more observations based on the fact that my sister is a CAS worker, with all the immense legal powers that attach to that position. From talking to her, her friends, reading the literature thay are indoctrinated with, etc., I do think that there is an over-intrusive element to the training of child protection workers. She is of the type who sees a potential reporting situation when a mother walks down the street to talk to neighbours while the children are playing in the front yard. OTOH, as MBJ pointed out, they are damned either way. When a child has been returned and gets battered/abused/killed, all the attention goes to the lazy, negligent CAS, etc.

And I am with Zen 100% -- there is a huge class issue in the monitoring of children. You can see it most clearly when poor parents are noted down for having a "messy home". Well, if you are a single parent, or one with an often-absent spouse, if you live in a small apartment and let kids roam around freely, you will, unless you are Martha Stewart, have a "messy house".

My understanding is that social workers make thiese kind of negative evaluations all the time. What amazes me is that social workers/child protection workers go through the most left-wing curriculum imaginable to humankind, always alert to class and racial bias. After they write their left-wing essays in order to pass, they seem to revery to the middle-class, do-gooder attitudes which led them to the profession in the first place. I am told anecdotally that CAS's in rich areas like Halton take a much more laissez-faire attitude than their counterparts in, say, working-class Hamilton.

An extremely interesting issue to me, yet the way this thread has developed, it may have degenerated past the point where they can usefully be explored.

Toral
 
198Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 16:46
I would add to the mindset discussion, that many of these social workers learn ridiculous notions in university that marriage itself is rape, that one in four children will at some point be sexually abused. It's no wonder they see abuse everywhere.

They have been known to deliberately show up the day a mother comes home from the hospital from delivering and find...ta-da...that she keeps a messy house. We all make sure we clean up the house while our bag has broken don't you know.
 
199biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 16:48
Interesting perspective, Toral. I too wish Baldwin would get down on the inflammatory rhetoric and anectdote projection so we could actually get some useful discussion out of this.
 
200Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 17:01
Baldwin - that marriage itself is rape

1. please explain, what on earth, you mean by this?

2. please cite some sources, and no, i don't mean adoptionismurder.com or thegovernmentwillkidnapyourchildtomakehimorherworkinthekiddiepornbusiness.com.
 
201Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 17:05
I'll save Baldwin some time. Catharine Mackinnon teaches that all male-female intercourse is rape. She is highly regarded as a legal scholar, and widely revered among feminists. (And interestingly, married herself.)
 
202Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 17:32
well, just because an idiot says something and some people believe her doesn't mean it's so. i mean heck, look at Ann Coulter. a lot of idiots believe her, and she's full of crap too....
 
203Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 55343019
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 17:36
It's obvious the MacKinnon has a "rape" fetish...

I don't think MacKinnon is all that highly regarded these days.
 
204Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 18:02
Catharine McKinnon's bio.

Anyone ever invite you to be a full professor at the U of Michigan, Zen?
 
205Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 18:06
Snopes says my attribution is wrong.

But snopes isn't always right. More to come....
 
206Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 18:07
I'd always thought it was Dworkin, who's in even lower esteem.

pd
 
207biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 18:13
from the snopes piece:

Critics of MacKinnon's work argue she implies all men are rapists, but the quote given here was created by MacKinnon's opponents, not MacKinnon herself.

MacKinnon claims the first reference to her alleged belief that all sex is hostile surfaced in the October 1986 issue of Playboy. According to MacKinnon, the statement (which had previously been attached to feminist Andrea Dworkin) was made up by the pornography industry in an attempt to undermine her credibility. It became inextricably linked with MacKinnon's name after she began working with Dworkin in the early 1980s to write model anti-pornography laws.
 
208Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 18:19
I think you may be right, PD. Well, somebody said it!

Professor MacKinnon has made many other statements which are highly provocative. I may owe her an apology. But if you review the sources, you will see that ideas of this kind have been expressed often among the academic feminist community. That the majority of women in the U.S. have been raped, that rape may occur even within marriage when the woman gives consent....I think a review of them would support the spirit of Baldwin's comment in 200.

Toral
 
209biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 18:23
I think that the statement "penetrative intercourse is, by it's nature, violent" and "all sex is rape" are two seperate things. I'm not sure anybody said it.

I don't agree with either statement, but people engage in consensual violence all the time.
 
210Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 18:51
Bili but people engage in consensual violence all the time.

Red Herring Alert!

Feminists have made statements suggesting that a large amount of the male-female sex takes place, (nothing to do with consensual 'rough sex'), including sex that the woman believes, both before and after the fact, to be consensual is equivalent or tantamount to male domination and/or rape. That is a statement that I am willing to defend, if anyone attacks it.

Toral
 
211biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 18:59
Why a Red Herring?

I'm saying that the statements are not the same because in order for sex to be rape between two adults it has to be non-consensual.

You are saying that some feminists (though not necessarily the two were are discussing) say that sex is rape even if consensual (contradicting the law as I see it). There are some (a very small minority, I would guess) confused Feminists out there. So?
 
212biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:00
Oh. I see. You are saying somebody said it. Okay. Carry on.
 
213Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:11
Budding idealistic social workers learn from their required womyn's studies classes that...
"Feminism stresses the indistinguishability of prostitution, marriage, and sexual harassment." - Catherine MacKinnon, a professor of law at both the University of Michigan Law School and the University of Chicago Law School

"Like prostitution, marriage is an institution that is extremely oppressive and dangerous for women." - Andrea Dworkin

In 1990, the organization Radical Women issued a group manifesto affirming that the traditional family was "founded on the open or concealed domestic slavery of the wife."34 The manifesto celebrated the growth of single-parent families and serial cohabitation in low-income communities as a positive step toward the liberation of women

"Inequity and coercion...always lay at the vortex of that supposedly voluntary `compassionate marriage' of the traditional nuclear family." - Judith Stacey, Professor of Gender Studies and Sociology at the University of Southern California

The legal rights of access that married partners have to each other's persons, property, and lives makes it all but impossible for a spouse to defend herself (or himself), or to be protected against torture, rape, battery, stalking, mayhem, or murder by the other spouse.... Legal marriage thus enlists state support for conditions conducive to murder and mayhem. - Claudia Card, professor of Philosophy at the University of Wisconsin-Madison

There is a long and honorable tradition of "anti-family" thought. The French philosopher Charles Fourier taught that the family was a barrier to human progress; early feminists saw a degrading parallel between marriage and prostitution. More recently, the renowned British anthropologist Edmund Leach stated, "far from being the basis of the good society, the family with its narrow privacy and tawdry secrets, is the source of all discontents." - Barbara Ehrenreich, a former columnist with Time magazine who now writes for The Nation.

Male sexual aggression is endemic, if any sex act against a person's will were considered rape, the majority of men would be rapists...My own informal survey of adult women suggests that very few reach the age of twenty-one without suffering some form of male predation--incest, molestation, rape or attempted rape, beatings, and sometimes torture or imprisonment...It cannot be an accident that everywhere on the globe one sex harms the other so massively that one questions the sanity of those waging the campaign: can a species survive when half of it systematically preys on the other? - Marilyn French
Is it any wonder they are too quick to disrupt families and none too keen on reuniting them?


 
214Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:14
bili 212 Oh. I see. You are saying somebody said it.

And not a marginally or despised somebody or somebodies, but people who are taken seriously in liberal society, and awarded honours, grants, sisterships, professorships, and government positions.

People who are no farther from the middle than Baldwin, who is unlikely to be offered any of these things, so far as I know.

Toral
 
215biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:15
So much for the plea to cease the spewing of empty rhetoric.

Please show were a majority, or even a substantial fraction, of case workers are required to agree with any of the above quotes.
 
216Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:19
Bili: An empty demand, since you can't show that members of any profession are 'required to agree' with any set of quotes.

Toral
 
217Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:21
Catherine MacKinnon writes, "Compare victims' reports of rape with womens' reports of sex. They look a lot alike.... In this light, the major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it."
 
218biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:22
Okay, fine. Required to be taught that point of view.

I was trying to get around the fact that you can easily teach those views without espousing their validity.
 
219James K Polk
      ID: 329341615
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:28
Perhaps the more pragmatic question is: Please show where a majority, or even a substantial fraction, of case workers do agree with any of the above quotes.
 
220James K Polk
      ID: 329341615
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:31
Because the other half of biliruben 218 is that you can easily be taught such views without ever espousing their validity.
 
221Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:31
If only impressionable and idealistic youth was proof against such required brainwashing.
 
222Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:34
Polk: So is this get Baldwin day? If people are taught that, isn't that an issue in itself?

If it were shown that journalists were sought fatuous things, should someone complaining against this be forced to prove (how?) that a majority of journalists accept them?
 
223Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 21556266
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:41
We were all offered ridiculous courses in college. So what. That's a long way from proving that a degree in social work requires taking a "sex=rape" course. It doesn't.
 
224James K Polk
      ID: 329341615
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:51
Sure, I'll agree with you that students being taught such things is a problem. (And there are an awful lot of bad things being taught at J schools out there.) But there is a significant difference between saying there is 1) a problem with a few radical professors, and 2) saying there is an industrywide problem among social workers.

Based on a few quotes from people who teach law, gender studies, philosophy, etc., I'm willing to accept proposition 1 (heck, I didn't even need the quotes to agree with that one), but am sure not prepared to extrapolate all the way to proposition 2. Which I gather from the whole of this thread is the proposition we're supposed to accept.

(And I hardly think disproving a Baldwin-initiated charge of "liberal bias," which was founded on a misleading column, counts as anything close to advancing "Get Baldwin Day.")
 
225James K Polk
      ID: 329341615
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:51
Or, what MBJ said :)
 
226Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:56
"All men are rapists and that's all they are" — Marilyn French

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." - Catherine MacKinnon

"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership."..."Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." ... "Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks." ... Under patriarchy, every woman's daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman,"... "One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible." - Andrea Dworkin

"In every century, there are a handful of writers who help the human race to evolve. Andrea is one of them." — Gloria Steinem

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference." — Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." — Robin Morgan

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." — Catherine MacKinnon

"Rape represents an extreme behavior, but one that is on a continuum with normal male behavior within the culture." — Prof. Mary Koss of Kent State University

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." - Catherine Comins, Vassar College,
Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991




 
227Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 19:58
there is a significant difference between saying there is 1) a problem with a few radical professors, and 2) saying there is an industrywide problem among social workers. - Polk

Who said it was just a few radical professors? How many universities do you know where radical women's studies aren't mandatory?

 
228Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 20:01
MBJ We were all offered ridiculous courses in college. But in social work that's all you have to choose from.

We all adopted a mind-set in college too. Very few people have enough capacity for independent thinking to oppose all of what we are taught directly. I can't prove that all "tough-as-nails" prosecutors took formalist "the law is the law" courses. Many probably rebelled against them. But without legal formalism, I doubt you would have as many "tough-as-nails" prosecutors.

I have reviewed the social work courses available to and taken by my sister (and she's still taking them, doing a part time LL.M. in a 'critical theory' school.) They were all, without exception, slanted to the left -- feminist/class theory/race theory. Who do you think becomes social workers anyway?

Like i said, many social workers reject their indoctrination. My sister's best friend, after taking a post-modernist Foucalult course, said to me, "What a load of crap." But you can reject the indoctrination provided to you, and have no alternative view of society provided, and still revert back to what your teachers said. Especially in the case of social workers, whose training is primary in that. Lawyers go to law school with undergraduate training in all kinds of disciplines, and so are a lot less susceptible to the ideology of the teachers they happen upon.

Toral
 
229Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 20:01
How many where they are mandatory? I don't know of any, frankly, but I'm sure you'll enlighten us.

Stick to the public schools, please.

pd
 
230Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 20:02
Anyone want to try and find a college with a required women's study course that doesn't have all those authors included in their syllabus?
 
231Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 20:07
Eastern Illinois University

WST 2309G is a required course
 
232Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 20:11
It's required if you are taking Women's Studies as a Minor. Jeez, what kind of people are this, that require all those who major and minor in a study to take an overview class like Women, Men, and Culture.
 
233biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 20:47
I'll just work through the schools I've attended, liberal arts programs all.

UW's School of Social Work appears sadly lacking in Women's Studies requirements.



A BSW at U of I also is deficient though they do offer "Minorities, Women and Social Work." Obviously a bastion of man-hating feminists. As an aside, there was a contingest of lesbian feminists on campus, one or two of which were blatently hitting on their students. They took on the wrong woman in my step-mother (a feminist herself) however, and lost what little power they had in that department; one losing her tenured position. You don't want to mess with my step-mother, let me tell you. Just eat her food (which is always fantastic), nod and smile at the appropriate times, and you might make through an evening alive.

Sadly, Binghamton doesn't appear to have a school of social work. They do have a women's studies program, however, who's curriculum is I'm sure scandalous. But that's not what we're discussing.
 
234Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 20:55
I may just be wrong on how required these studies are across the board. Further research will ensue.
 
235Tree
      Donor
      ID: 319582017
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 21:01
Baldwin, if you're gonna do further research, you might want to start with the adoption process.
 
236Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 21:08
Don't confuse the thread! We're on Women's Studies Programs now!

pd
 
237Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 21:12
See, bili, not all places have someone as strong as your step-mother. Or your dad, who has the right idea about immigrants. You have the advantage of coming from a strong family with sensible ideas, and in some cases the power to fight for them; not everyone is so lucky.

If you and your relatives were running things, everything would be fine. Unfortunately they aren't.

Toral
 
238Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 21:39
To my surprise I find the overwhelming trend recently is to virtually eliminate required courses of any kind.
 
239Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 22:03
"Required" courses in the olden days used to teach the basic tenets of Western civilization, as a prelude. The first move of liberals in tearing things down was to eliminate required courses. (Remember Jesse Jackson at Stanford, "Hey, hey, ho, ho; 'Western Civ' has got to go." All the texts in that course were by 'dead white males', remember.)

Course that basic education used to include Plato, Baldwin, and you wouldn't approve of that either.

Toral
 
240Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Mon, Oct 20, 2003, 22:08
Many of those texts were wrong, as well.

Nothing wrong with a good dose of liberal education, steeped in the classics. Something is wrong, however, with texts with errors compounded by people who insist in their correctness because of how often they've been told.

I'd suggest a close reading of Lies My Teacher Told Me.
 
241Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Tue, Oct 21, 2003, 04:35
Toral

How else are you going to know where Christendom got screwed up unless you learn about the pagan philosopher who contaminated it?
 
242James K Polk
      ID: 51010719
      Sun, Oct 26, 2003, 14:09
No, those caseworkers don't always step in too soon
 
243James K Polk
      ID: 51010719
      Sun, Oct 26, 2003, 14:18
Yes, sometimes caseworkers persistently return kids to their biological parents
 
244James K Polk
      ID: 51010719
      Sun, Oct 26, 2003, 14:55
Strangely, they don't seem to always yank a child from his home at their first excuse

Just a few friendly reminders that anecdotal evidence cuts boths ways ...

(post 243 is a follow-up to a story Bili posted earlier)
 
245Baldwin
      ID: 6920139
      Sun, Oct 26, 2003, 16:51
The problem is Mr Polk, the media as a rule only harp on the tragedies that occur from returns to bad parents. It's almost always safer from a media perspective to err on the side of removal. Which could be why the governor from Iowa infamously said "When in doubt take them out" - May lightning strike the next politician to say that.
 
246Tree
      Donor
      ID: 421018306
      Sun, Nov 30, 2003, 14:55
i'm sure that each of these 25 unwanted boys, no doubt, thank God for being adopted, to help them live richer lives than they could possibly have lived before...

25 adopted boys find a home in one house
 
247Baldwin
      ID: 4211451317
      Sat, Dec 13, 2003, 19:41
Junk Science convicting innocent parents of murder.
 
248Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 14826271
      Sat, Dec 13, 2003, 20:22
They believe that a handful of medical experts have had too much influence in the family court system

I agree 100% that that assessment would/did apply to US courts, as well; but not to the degree it has in Great Britain. There's been a series of cases here that represent a general backlash to some of the convictions based largely on theoretica; medical testimony.
 
249Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 141046261
      Sat, Dec 13, 2003, 20:25
Funny, MBJ, I was thinking of your opinion of ADD/PDD when reading that article, and was wondering what your reaction was to the piece.

That fourth paragraph sums up this entire thread:

Yet, according to a growing body of concerned lawyers, doctors and parents, these are not isolated cases but symptomatic of a legal and medical system so determined to protect children that it fails to protect the innocent.
 
250Baldwin
      ID: 560191911
      Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 00:13
Glenn Reynolds -
UPDATE: A domestic-relations judge who asks that I not use his name emails:

Tell me about it. The words "due process of law" are wholly unknown to vast portions of the (administrative) child support network. I'm surprised it hasn't been hugely publicized so far, and it's not going to get better. Here in Ohio, the legislature's attempt to enact a "paternity fraud" law is getting a hostile reception from the courts.

He's right -- and, indeed, the entire child-welfare bureaucracy seems actively hostile to due process considerations. - instapundit 8:46 AM 2/3/04
 
251Baldwin
      ID: 5544766
      Tue, May 25, 2004, 21:10
We're From the Government, We're Here to Help

You say you had a home birth and are calling to get expert help on breastfeeding?

Hand over that one day old baby. It's ours now...er it always was ours.
 
252Baldwin
      ID: 53631254
      Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 10:23
You're only her parents. You didn't have a right to know your 13 yr old was getting an abortion.
 
253Baldwin
      ID: 53631254
      Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 10:32
Bold faced murderers



Brought to you by those lovely people who inspired Hitler's concentration camps, Planned Parenthood.
 
254bibA
      Donor
      ID: 261028117
      Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 13:48
Was just wondering.....when they inspired Hitler to build the concentration camps, did they know that 15 million would be killed by the Nazis, including 6 million Jews, 6 million Russians, and 3 million others?

And aren't you giving them a pass by forgetting that they are also responsible for Cambodia's killing fields, various slaughters in Africa, and 9/11?
 
255biliruben
      ID: 21551150
      Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 13:56
Don't forget Stalin and Mao. Both very pro-choice.
 
256Baldwin
      ID: 53631254
      Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 14:50
That there was a rich cross-fertilization between the Nazis and Planned Parenthood, even so far as having Nazis who planned the final solution on the board of directors of their parent organization is something I've already linked to Sarge. You aren't asking me to...*shudder* *cringe*...doublepost are you?
 
257bibA
      Donor
      ID: 261028117
      Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 16:03
Do ya think the Nuremburgh trials will be re-activated? Do ya, huh?
 
258Baldwin
      ID: 53631254
      Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 21:31
If justice in the universe came tomorrow, then yes.
 
259sarge33rd
      ID: 22656308
      Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 22:21
you have also tied the Bush family to the nazis. Hence, the Bush's are behind planned parenthood, abortion rights and the holocaust.
 
260Baldwin
      ID: 53631254
      Sun, Aug 01, 2004, 05:48
Bailing Hitler out was one member of an secret occult society helping another member of a secret occult society. It is what it is.

You will never hear me accuse the Bush dynasty of genuine consistant conservatism. While Bush II has said and done some anti-Planned Parenthood things, when all is said and done they'll end up turning this country over to those things you mentioned Sarge.
 
261Baldwin
      ID: 53631254
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 15:35
Freedom of association to be outlawed in California school district.
A California school district is considering adopting a new policy that could cause students to be expelled for "rejecting" each other, for sharing "unpleasant stories" about each other – even if true – or for associating with like-minded peers in groups if others feel "left out."

The center says national race-based organizations came to the district to propose language for the policy, which prevents students from forming or openly participating in groups that tend to exclude, or create the impression of the exclusion of, other students.

"Based on a plain reading of the proposed regulation, a student could be expelled for simply claiming to be a member of La Raza ('The Race'), a Latino organization, or for playing rap music near white students," said the law group's statement.
Of course this would never be applied to a group of latinos or blacks.

'Do I dare go over and talk to Shannon?'

 
262Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 15:46
Of course this would never be applied to a group of latinos or blacks.

Huh?

"Based on a plain reading of the proposed regulation, a student could be expelled for simply claiming to be a member of La Raza ('The Race'), a Latino organization, or for playing rap music near white students," said the law group's statement.
 
263bibA
      Donor
      ID: 261028117
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:10
I guess that he is saying that if a white student belonged to La Raza, or maybe an Oriental played rap music near white students, that they would be expelled?
 
264Baldwin
      ID: 53631254
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:23
No the rules as being considered would outlaw latinos and blacks from hanging out with other latinos and blacks. Except we all know it wouldn't be applied that way. Nor should it of course. It's freakish to be even trying to strip freedom of association from people so that no one feels bad. Heck the entire political correctness movement is all about making conservatives feel bad. They exult in it.
 
265biliruben
      ID: 441182916
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:25
Is it working?
 
266sarge33rd
      ID: 35757108
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:31
lmao bili
 
267Baldwin
      ID: 53631254
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:34
Now see if I was a liberal I'd be muttering about hate speech right there but I'm not so I won't.
 
268sarge33rd
      ID: 35757108
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:35
odd Baldwin. I've always felt the PC movement was initiated by conservatives to try and stifle individuality.
 
269Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:37
Since you're googling, I wonder if this same school district has policies against bullying and low-level sexual harassment in the schoolyard? They've been doing that in Ontario, and that seems to me an eminently good thing.

The liberals never know where to draw the line.

Toral
 
270biliruben
      ID: 441182916
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:38
I don't hate you Baldwin; my compassion, as dictated by "The Center For Liberal Studies" won't allow it.

We are all in this together. I'm there for you. Your anguish is due to a being bullied as a child.
 
271biliruben
      ID: 441182916
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:41
Since he didn't provide a link (WND again, Baldwin?), we really can't assess this policy with anything approaching an unbiased eye.

I can only assume Schwartzenager is behing it, the big softie.
 
272Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:41
Sure enuf California does.
A student shall not intimidate or harass another student through words or actions. Such behavior includes: direct physical contact, such as hitting or shoving; verbal assaults, such as teasing or name-calling; and social isolation or manipulation.


They lump getting beaten up together with "social isolation".

Sad.

Toral
 
273biliruben
      ID: 441182916
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 16:45
Social Isolation? That would appear to be unenforcable. You'd have to punish the entire school-1.
 
274Baldwin
      ID: 53631254
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 17:14
Source
 
275James K Polk
      ID: 51010719
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 19:38
A little better context from this story than WND gives. (Although I do appreciate seeing an NYT ad embedded there ;) The North County Times gives plenty of space to Ackerman's complaints, but strangely also talks to school board members.

Board President Ken Dickson said he has been doing some research, and believes Ackerman raises some issues concerning whether the policy violates the First Amendment.

He said the policy is too broad and ambiguous, and he is looking at ways it might be reworded. ...

Ackerman particularly targets the bullying harassment clause in the policy. He says it tramples on students' freedom of speech rights, and calls it "almost beyond rational comprehension."

The bullying portion lists actions such as spreading unpleasant stories about someone, rejecting someone, and excluding someone from social groups as constituting harassment if the behavior creates a hostile environment or interferes with a student's ability to work, among other factors.

"Common sense dictates that inclusion, rejection and exclusion from/in social groups is a normal and defining part of the school experience," he said.

Linsley said it is important to review that clause in its correct context. He said those actions, taken separately, may not constitute harassment, however, the policy only addresses the behaviors if they are meant to intimidate or are repeated and deliberately hurtful.

The policy may indeed be poorly worded. But it sounds like the school district is trying to come up with some way to deal with a racially charged atmosphere, a subject on which I imagine they're getting a lot of pressure from parents.
 
276Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 19:47
Polk, looking at the story, looking at your weal defence of the leftists, and then looking at the grounds that would constitute wrongful conduct, I can't resist enumerating...can't resist enumerating...

Oh yes I can!

Toral
 
277James K Polk
      ID: 51010719
      Wed, Aug 11, 2004, 19:57
Thanks for your prudence, Toral ;)

I'm not defending the policy, BTW. I haven't even read the policy -- just these two paraphrases of it. But I think it's important to put some context to this, specifically that:

1) board members are listening to Ackerman's complaint and considering the wording as too broad.
2) intent is a crucial part -- or at least intended to be a crucial part -- of this policy.

Naturally, even if the policy is well-crafted there's still room for poor implementation, though.
 
278Baldwin
      ID: 337451920
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 08:02
Samizdata's take on a British study of their black market and efforts to discourage it.
The trouble with all this free-market capitalism (according to every reliable and sound authority on the subject) is that it results in a cruel, dog-eat-dog society where the strong and the rich grow stronger and richer while the poor and weak get trampled underfoot in the headlong stampede for endless profits.

This is why markets must be subject to the moderating influence of a compassionate government which must deploy a range of taxes, regulations and laws to stave off the worst predations of naked greed and help create a level-playing field and decent living conditions for all those poor and feeble people.

Here endeth the first lesson in received wisdom:
[UK Times quote]

THE black economy does Britain good because it helps to keep poor people off the breadline and develop their "entrepreneurial skills", a report commissioned by the Government has found.
Efforts to stamp out moonlighting — including a year-long Ł5 million advertising campaign — were misguided because tax dodges were a way of providing the needy with a financial safety net, the study commissioned by John Prescott’s office found.
It may cause some cognitive disonance to reverberate around the corridors of power to be told that the best way to help the poor is to let them out of the prison that has purportedly been built for their benefit.
Amen

 
279sarge33rd
      ID: 50740207
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 11:55
...misguided because tax dodges were a way of providing the needy with a financial safety net,...


How odd you didnt emphasis this portion of the article. To claim that tax fraud is a "good" thing, shows how little the writer truly grasps reality. To me, that statement discredits the entire contention.
 
280Baldwin
      ID: 337451920
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 13:17
The tax dodge comment was in the official government report. You can tell by the way I blockquoted it for you.
 
281sarge33rd
      ID: 50740207
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 14:53
in the report conducted by someone (something) commissioned by the government. It wasnt the governments conclusion. There is a difference.

I happen to believe the part you emphasized could (perhaps even should read:


the best way to help the poor is to enable them to free themselves from the prison that has purportedly been built for their benefit, through subsidized job training and education of the nations employers concerning the longterm value of job stability.
 
282Baldwin
      ID: 337451920
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 16:33
Of course you would hold beliefs that go against the evidence. The evidence is in. The nanny state doesn't do any good and costs too much to boot.
 
283sarge33rd
      ID: 50740207
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 17:01
evidence?????? lmao You want evidence? 5000 laid off in a city of 75,000. (demographics by age I'm not sure of, but would imagine in a city of 75k, probably something around 45k ages 20-60. Or of 'working age'.)

3 of my previous 7 employers complained that they "have never paid anybody these kinds of commission dollars before" and subsequently cut commissions. The last one, has lost approx $17k/m in gross revenue, because they wouldnt give me the national average for pay, and I left.

Talking with others who do what it is I do in the car business, average commissions in this market, lag behind the national average by 1/3 or worse. One F&I Director, asked who he should talk to where I was working, since they pay almost 1/2 again what his employer pays. (and my pay was 60% of the national average.)

Interviewed Thurs in person, this morning via phone...twice and final interview tomorrow, with a dealer near Des Moines. (200 miles from here)2nd interview was unscheduled, when the owner of the dealership called me and explained that he had already verified by performance claims. He has already agreed to pay me 5% above the national average...provided I dont totally blow the final interview tomorrow.

Problem is;

1) it should not have taken 11 months to find a fair opportunity.

2) FAR too many employers (particularly where pay is via commission), look only at the total dollars being paid and NOT at the total sales which generated those dollars.


I've never understood the problem an employer has when paying by commission. If salesman "A" is being paid 3 times what you as an employer are used to paying, it's because he's creating three times the revenue you are used to seeing. Where is the problem in that?
 
284Baldwin
      ID: 337451920
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 17:07
And after robbing you blind every April 15 how would a nanny state have improved your lot in life now?
 
285sarge33rd
      ID: 50740207
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 17:20
First...taxes are not a form of being robbed.

Second...If it requires (as it seems to) that the govt intervene to ensure some degree of parity in job security, then more people are employed. (That by definition means fewer on unemployment, food stamps etc etc)

Third...You obviously still dont get, or cant see, or cannot fathom...how paying people well, will motivate greater levels of performance. This in turn generates greater profitability. This creates a self-perpetuating cycle of growth, both for the employer and the local markets economy.


Witness NUCOR as it made its turnaround. One of the VP's states..."We looked for workers with a farmers mentality. Work hard, work long. We'd hire 5 people, work them like 10 people and pay them like 8 people."
 
286Baldwin
      ID: 337451920
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 17:35
I used to employ a lot of people. And so did you.

Tell me how the government should have intervened in our ability to freely hire, fire and set wages?

Does the government run my business or do I? You know the actual definition of fascism is private ownership but government control of business.

BTW why is there no auto dealership in Iowa who realizes there are all these overqualified disgruntled underpaid workers out there who could allow them to beat the snot out of their competition if they could just corner the market on quality workers? When you ran your insurance business didn't you pay extra for extra good salespeople?
 
287sarge33rd
      ID: 50740207
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 19:16
As for what I paid, I overpaid by the market. Made certain that nobody who worked for me...nobody, needed to apply for financial aid of any sort. Not my secretary, not the receptionist, not the new guy I hired who had absolutely no sales experience at all but came with an outstanding attitude.

As for those who work locally for so much less than they should be getting? I dont have the answer to that. I asked katie that very question tonight, and I honestly do not have the answer. I do know, that since 1997, I've worked this business in Ft Dodge (pd 1/2 market) then went to Marshalltown. (Was paid very well, but the suicide of an old army buddy tipped me over the edge and I didnt deal with it very well. Lost that job and from a mental health standpoint, it was the best thing that could have happened to me.) Then to Onawa, where the ownership turned out to be crooks. (Currently still 2 federal warrants out for arrests stemming from fraud charges.) Next went to NE Texas where "the good ole boy" network is alive and well. Basically, "if you aint from here, you aint working here". Next we moved to Harlan. I was told when I interviewed that the dealership sold 50-60 cars month. In 6 months there, we never sold more than 25. Finally, moved to Sioux City. Pd well below market and have spent the past 9 months struggling with trying to run a business where my potential clientele is more interested in committing fraud than in doing legitimate business, all the while searching for an employment opportunity. Usually, within 30-45 days tops, someone turning my numbers, can pretty much "name their price" and have a good shot of getting it. The midwest economy however, is such that there is simply no movement in the industry except for dealers closing shop. FINALLY, tomorrow, I have a shot at a fair deal with someone. Assuming I get it, (which I will), the burning question becomes, "How long before this owner decides he is paying too much money?" From our conversation on the phone (which I will press abit tomorrow while sitting face-to-face so I can get a better read on him), I dont at this moment believe he will have a problem with it. Past experience though, suggests otherwise.
 
288sarge33rd
      ID: 50740207
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 19:20
let me just add too, that I have seldom been in favor of increasing the federal minimum wage. An employees wage problem does NOT stem from his/her starting pay. IMHO, it stems from too many employers figuring...he/she does this for me now for this much money. Why should I pay them more? My opinion, the federal govt should leave min wage where it is and mandate annual profit sharing. (of course, then these same employers would simply fire people after 11 months, so as to avoid profit sharing and hire new folks at min wage. this is where the 'sticky-wicket comes in with believing it necessary to create some limited form of 'right to work' vs "employed at will" legislation.)
 
289Baldwin
      ID: 337451920
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 19:28
I really empathize with what you have been thru Sarge. I just honestly believe the last thing you need to hear is 'Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you'.
 
290sarge33rd
      ID: 50740207
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 19:37
well....chalk up another a$$hole. One of the asst mgrs just called me. The owner whom I spoke with today and was to interview with tomorrow just called him via cell phone while enroute to Lake Okoboji for the weekend. Cancelled our interview of tomorrow cause he hired another guy today.
 
291Baldwin
      ID: 337451920
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 20:24
Ouch
 
292sarge33rd
      ID: 50740207
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 22:24
re 289....290 was the last thing I needed to hear.
 
293Baldwin
      ID: 337451920
      Fri, Aug 20, 2004, 22:44
This is what I mean about self-loathing liberals. They find it trendy to identify with the most totalitarian governments on the earth like Cuba, but the USA is fascist. Amazing. Who wants to bet that political science prof owns a PLO style Kefiyah. Yeah, count on him to be our watchdog regarding bad government.
 
294Baldwin
      ID: 419272719
      Thu, Oct 28, 2004, 13:08
Germany begins jailing homeschoolers

 
295Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Thu, Oct 28, 2004, 13:10
Germany's never been much of a model for rights.
 
296Tree
      ID: 350231414
      Sun, Jan 14, 2007, 22:43
even though he has again taken one of his periodic sabbaticals, i'm a bit surprised that Baldwin hasn't leaped on the story of Allison Quets in his railing against the adoption industry.

part of the reason i'm surprised is that while he's often throwing these off the wall examples out there, but this is a case that definitely has hit the main stream, and also one where the birth mother has a pretty solid core of people backing her.

i'm still researching it a bit more, but so far it seems to me that she is in the right in this case, and her children are unfairly being taken from her. still, i reserve the right to change my mind after more research, but something here does not seem right.
 
297Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Sun, Jan 14, 2007, 23:24
From tree's 2nd link: "She has since been welcomed by the people of Canada.."


From tree's 1st link: "Quets remains in custody in Canada"

Either way, I guess.
 
298Tree
      ID: 350231414
      Mon, Jan 15, 2007, 11:04
lol. well, i think that goes to the complexities of this case, and the fact that things vary so greatly state-by-state.
 
299Tree
      ID: 520522317
      Tue, Jan 23, 2007, 22:42
and here's another. this is a case of the birth parents getting their kid back. i've been loosely following the story of this Chinese couple for a few years now, and it's nice to see them win custody of their own child in the end.
 
300Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Tue, Mar 13, 2007, 15:27
Germany ripping a family apart over homeschooling.

It all started with this outrageous ruling...
"The Minister of Education does not share your attitudes toward so-called homeschooling…," said a government letter in response. "You complain about the forced school escort of primary school children by the responsible local police officers… In order to avoid this in future, the education authority is in conversation with the affected family in order to look for possibilities to bring the religious convictions of the family into line with the unalterable school attendance requirement."


Moving thru the court system it has escalated to this...
A German appeals court has not only affirmed a lower court's decision that ripped a 15-year-old homeschooler from her family and subjected her to a forced stay in a psychiatric hospital because she is homeschooled, but also ordered her parents to be given psychiatric evaluations, an international rights organization says.

Joel Thornton, president of the International Human Rights Group told WND that fears the state will use those court-approved tests to destroy the family of Melissa Busekros are very valid.

"The trouble is this emboldens the state again, only now it's at a higher level, and the courts still are agreeing with them. This could put Melissa back into the psychiatric system where she could disappear from sight entirely," he said.

The family's five other children also are endangered now because of potential court rulings that could be based on any evaluation of the parents, he said.

The appeals court ruling came despite the fact that all three of the lawyers representing Melissa Busekros clearly stated in their request to the court the family had accepted a compromise offered by a lower court for her to return home under government supervision.

"In spite of [that] … the appeals court held that the family refused the court's initial compromise to let Melissa become an outpatient," Thornton said.

For the Busekros family, it's a huge setback.

"[A] fear is that Melissa will be returned to the psychiatric clinic system in Germany and 'disappear.' This would leave the family with no way to know where Melissa is or how she is doing. She could become a ward of the state and completely lost to her family," Thornton said.

Besides the other children in the family, there are further ramifications, too, with the decision raising questions of larger government attacks on homeschoolers in Germany, where that choice of education is illegal because the government wants to stamp out any "parallel" societies utilizing a worldview different from the state's.

Thornton said the problem is that the original psychiatric evaluation was so vague, anyone could have been determined to need treatment under its conclusions.

"It's easy to see … if they want to, the government could take more of the children away from this family using the same process. And there is an increased fear among homeschoolers about whether their children are next," he said.

Even those German families who already have fled to other countries because of Germany's homeschool ban are moving into hiding because of the possibility they could be returned to face German fines or jail time for homeschooling, Thornton said.
Just a headsup for SZ and MBJ. They'll be asking you to engage in this someday.

Get out yer hammer and tongs...those heads must hammered to well defined points.




 
301Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, Mar 13, 2007, 16:47
shoulda put this here, instead of the other thread...


United States, specifically Conservatives and Republicans, advocate ripping families apart...
 
302sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Mar 13, 2007, 17:09
nice comeback Tree. [specially, considering you're just a troll. ;)]
 
303Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Tue, Mar 13, 2007, 18:35
Is immmigration preventing the parents from taking their American born children with them?

Of course not.

Who is more of a blockhead? A troll or the troll's groupie?
 
304sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Mar 13, 2007, 18:56
Who is more of a blockhead?

The one who expects US citizens to leave the country. THAT, is your "blockhead".
 
305Tree
      ID: 382121317
      Tue, Mar 13, 2007, 19:16
Is immmigration preventing the parents from taking their American born children with them?

so, now you're in favor of deporting U.S. citizens?

just because someone points out how your pet issues can conflict each other, doesn't make them a troll...
 
306Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Tue, Mar 13, 2007, 23:16
I have no conflict. Kids belong with their parents. If the parents are deported for perfectly legal reasons then the kids naturally go with them. I see no conflict or problem what-so-ever. Which of my principles has been violated by that?

Do you have the slightest clue just how lame you are, Tree?
 
307Perm Dude
      ID: 20252136
      Tue, Mar 13, 2007, 23:18
Kids are citizens, by the Constitution. I know it is inconvenient, but that's a fact you can't wave your hands at to go away.

Citizens can't be deported against their wishes.
 
308Tree
      ID: 382121317
      Tue, Mar 13, 2007, 23:47
I have no conflict. Kids belong with their parents. If the parents are deported for perfectly legal reasons then the kids naturally go with them. I see no conflict or problem what-so-ever.

so, again, you are in favor of deporting U.S. citizens, born in this country?

i realize this is the part where i'm supposed to say something negative about you Baldwin, how you're probably sitting there masturbating to the mere thought of calling me names, but i'm not going to stoop to your level. :o)

look at your two posts above this. you referred to me as a blockhead and a troll, and called me lame. nowhere did i call you any name - in fact, apparently, it was my posting of a link that got me called a troll and a blockhead.

it was me asking you a direct question that got me called "lame".

Baldwin - you simply don't like when someone counters you. i'm sure your wife and children were extra obedient - most likely because of fear - and you expect that from other people.

but life doesn't work that way. if you're going to be involved in a current events and political discussion board, you have to be prepared for counter arguments and differing opinions, and you need to learn to respond like an adult, not some 9-year-old at recess.

so, back to the question:

so, again, you are in favor of deporting U.S. citizens, born in this country, Baldwin?
 
309Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 09:15
No I am not in favor of deporting US citizens. Are you in favor of illegal imigrants leaving their kids behind when they get deported?
 
310Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 09:19
Germany's urge to usurp parenting will flower here as well. Make no mistake about it.
 
311Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 09:21
No I am not in favor of deporting US citizens.

well, which is it? you're effectively advocating the forced deportion of US Citizens, by advocating the deportion of their parents.

Are you in favor of illegal imigrants leaving their kids behind when they get deported?

i'm in favor of a "compassionate" government that instead of trying to toss people out of this country, they accept them and work to the best of its ability to help integrate them into this nation - something that once earned us the title "The Great Melting Pot."

this nation needs to work hard to fix all the damage done over the last 7 years, and embracing our brothers and sisters from other countries is a good start.
 
312Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 10:12
tree - do you believe that no one, for any reason, should be deported?

Unless you are universally against deportation a a tool for enforcement of any immigration laws a nation might have, then you, too, will find yourself advocating deporting parents with children born here.

 
313leggestand
      Leader
      ID: 451036518
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 10:22
Ugh, Tree, your twisting needs to stop.

- being pro-strong illegal immigration laws does not equal an advocate to ripping families apart
- being anti-Isreali use of force against Lebanon does not equal pro-Palistinean terrorist (as MITH can attest)

Would you enjoy being called:

- anti-life because you are pro-choice?
- a murderer because you agreed that Schiavo should of been taken off life support?

No, you wouldn't but those twists that have been put upon you are essentially the same twists that you are putting on others. As you love to say, the issue is not black and white. No one is advocating ripping families apart.

this nation needs to work hard to fix all the damage done over the last 7 years, and embracing our brothers and sisters from other countries is a good start.

And that's just crap, and you use this everytime this issue is raised. You lump immigration/culture into the illegal immigration. You try to turn people that are pro-strong illegal immigration laws into people that must hate diversity. Again, it's simply untrue.
 
314Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 10:53
tree - do you believe that no one, for any reason, should be deported?

Unless you are universally against deportation a a tool for enforcement of any immigration laws a nation might have, then you, too, will find yourself advocating deporting parents with children born here.


i absolutely believe there are reasons for deportion.

being pro-strong illegal immigration laws does not equal an advocate to ripping families apart

it does, if your blind support of deportation rips a family apart.

i absolutely believe that having an american-born family are reasons NOT to deport someone. as i said, this is not a black and white area, there is a lot of gray, and this is one of those gray areas - a case-by-case basis is necessary.

being anti-Isreali use of force against Lebanon does not equal pro-Palistinean terrorist

it does if you support Hezbollah, and believe they do good things. nothing they do is good - the end does not justify the means, and just because you help build homes does not absolve you of mass murder.

- anti-life because you are pro-choice?
the "term" life in this situation was commandeered by the anti-choice movement, so it doesn't apply. as i've stated many times, i'm pro-choice, but personally, anti-abortion.

- a murderer because you agreed that Schiavo should of been taken off life support?

again, a term co-opted by a different anti-choice movement. i've got no blood on my hands, i feel fine.

this nation needs to work hard to fix all the damage done over the last 7 years, and embracing our brothers and sisters from other countries is a good start.

And that's just crap, and you use this everytime this issue is raised. You lump immigration/culture into the illegal immigration. You try to turn people that are pro-strong illegal immigration laws into people that must hate diversity. Again, it's simply untrue.


that's crap? this nation has taken a turn for the worst since GW Bush took over, but particularly, since he started using 9/11 as a reason to try and isolate us from the rest of the world, be it through war, military build up, or deportations.



 
315leggestand
      Leader
      ID: 451036518
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 11:34
it does, if your blind support of deportation rips a family apart.

Wrong. It's an issue that needs to worked out better, but again, no one is advocating ripping families apart. But, you did further prove my point (which is a reoccurring theme of this post), as you have now lumped everyone into "blind support" of illegal immigration, which, again is not the case. The spin continues.

it does if you support Hezbollah, and believe they do good things.

Wrong again. My bullet had nothing to do with Hezbollah, and yet you bring it up...again the twist/spin occurs. The bullet was solely about the Isreali reaction and how you spin it on people who disagree...you basically proved my point.

Condemning A (Isreali's response) does not mean supporting B (Hezbollah and terrorists). Why you seem to think otherwise boggles my mind.

As for my last two bullets, you proved my point again...you disagree with them. But they are the exact same as my first two bullets and your spins. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

that's crap?

Yes, and you ignored my sentence as to why it's crap. It's just further evidence of your spinning. Being pro-strong illiegal immigration laws doesn't make you anti-immigration or anti-diversity. You spun it again. Being for A does not make you against B...
 
316Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 11:43
Tree wouldn't let a person just abandon their kid at a mall deliberately without holding the parent criminally responsible. So how is the state responsible of ripping a family apart if illegal imingrants were to abandon their kids, leaving them in the USA?

In such a case it wouldn't be the state ripping a family apart. It would be the imigrant parent's greedy deathgrip on the loophole that makes their child a USA citizen which would be tempting them to split up rather than leave as a family. When the child comes of majority they would be free to come back.

Does PD think we would honor a minor's demand to be allowed to live at the mall instead of go home with his parents? So don't give me any crap about 'against the wishes of these citizens'.
 
317Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 11:46
It's clear that Tree feels that any illegal immigrant who manages to have a child born in the US deserves full immunity from deportation. While I agree that his debate tactic is hostile and simple, I do find myself torn on the position.
 
318Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 11:48
It's clear that Tree feels that any illegal immigrant who manages to have a child born in the US deserves full immunity from deportation. While I agree that his debate tactic is hostile and simple, I do find myself torn on the position.

no, very clearly i do not believe that "any" illegal immigrant, etc etc etc...

while i believe this should be the situation in most cases, i did specify i did not see it as black and white, and that there were gray areas.
 
319leggestand
      Leader
      ID: 451036518
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 12:02
MITH, I am also torn on the position. It's a crappy situation either way and when things that happen in post 301 occur, you have to imagine there is a better way to go about this process.

But, I am not for illegal immigration, and I am also not an advocate of ripping families apart. There must be a gray area that I fall into that Tree doesn't think exists.
 
320leggestand
      Leader
      ID: 451036518
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 12:05
Tree has backed off the black and white argument, so, at least he allows for people to fall into the gray area. I still don't see anyone who is an advocate of ripping families apart, though.
 
321Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 12:19
Tree can you offer us an example of such a grey area?
 
322Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 12:21
Tree has backed off the black and white argument

i never had the B&W argument. i asked Baldwin a specific question, and was met with his normaly litany of fourth grade insults.

in fact, before i even asked the question, i just posted a link, and was met with his insults.
 
323Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 19:21
No examples for us tree?
 
324Tree
      ID: 552501416
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 19:31
sorry MITH - didn't see your request, since we posted within minutes of each other.

could you be more specific? i mean, life is grey areas. it's not black and white. be it abortion, war, drugs, immigration, or really most any social or political issue, chances are, they reside in the grey.
 
325Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 20:49
Its your term, tree. In post 318, you denied that your opinion is that any illegal immigrant who manages to have a child born in the US deserves full immunity from deportation. You explained that its not a black and white issue, that there are gray areas.

Please give me an example of such a grey area.
 
326Tree
      ID: 552501416
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 20:59
Its your term, tree. In post 318, you denied that your opinion is that any illegal immigrant who manages to have a child born in the US deserves full immunity from deportation. You explained that its not a black and white issue, that there are gray areas.

Please give me an example of such a grey area.


fine. a hardcore criminal. if you come here illegally, and you kill somebody, then you get deported, kids or not. that's *my* grey area.

what's yours? :o)

 
327Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 21:09
that's *my* grey area

Thats a rather specifically suingular response.

what's yours? :o)

As I said I'm torn on the issue. I don't mind admittling that I can't be sure where I stand, so I guess it's all kind of a grey area to me.

Anyway, I'll slightly alter post 317 with a simple (and some might say fairly obvious) caveat:

Tree feels that any illegal immigrant who manages to have a child born in the US deserves full immunity from deportation, as long as he/she s not a violent criminal.

Does that make it a "black and white" you can stand by? Or are there more gray areas?
 
328Tree
      ID: 552501416
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 21:20
i'm sure there are more grey areas. your caveat, would be wrong, because you are trying to force me to be specific in an area that i feel is not possible to be specific in.

but, what i did do specifically is state you need to take things in a case-by-case basis, but, in your effort to be high and mighty, you may have missed that.
 
329Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 21:31
I'm neither high nor mighty. Just trying to pin you down, tough guy. Something that takes quite a bit of of work following your broad blanket accusations, such as: Conservatives and Republicans, advocate ripping families apart
 
330Tree
      ID: 552501416
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 21:44
Conservatives and Republicans, advocate ripping families apart

right right. sorry that was lost on you. ya know that whole thing Baldwin does, where he paints everyone with a broad brush? yea..sorry that went over your head...
 
331Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 21:55
I guess so. I told you, I'm not very high or mighty.

You're telling me Baldwin wrote that? Or is this one of those "he does it too" arguments?

Please spell it out for me and whoever else might have a hard time with your avant-garde highbrow wit.
 
332sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 23:09
I'm curious how it is, Baldy paints with a broad brush and gets the hands off treatment...Tree responds in kind, and gets grilled all day over it?
 
333Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 23:27
Sounds like somebody got up on the wrong side of the rock.
 
334Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 23:27
Tree's position today struck me as simplisticly argued and I sought to pin him down. I'm not sure where B made the broad strokes you claim but if you think I have a tendency to let his questionable posts slide while harping on others you are sadly mistaken, friend. If anything Tree's been the severely undeserving recipient of kid gloves from me and others for far too long here.
 
335sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Mar 15, 2007, 14:28
In post 300, Baldwin seeks to implicate any and all "leftists" with being "out to get" homeschoolers, because of Germany's laws. An absurd assertion IMHO.

In post 301, Tree uses the same overly broad brush, to take a swipe at Conservatives.

The majority then of posts up to 334, are either folks taking shots at Tree, or Tree fending off those shots, while Baldwins assertion sits unchallenged.


Yes, Trees post is overly broad. It was intended to be IMHO. It was a sarcastic come-back at Baldwins overly broad allegation. A sort of "two can play this game" sort of thing. I think the difference between the two, is that Baldwin believes his assertion (painting of all things "left"), to be entirely accurate, while I dont for one second, believe that Tree believes all conservatives are "out to deport" US citizens.
 
336Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Mar 15, 2007, 14:43
In post 300, Baldwin seeks to implicate any and all "leftists" with being "out to get" homeschoolers, because of Germany's laws. An absurd assertion IMHO.

Sarge, you can only be referring to Baldwin's use of the anonymous pronoun, "they". While I'm familiar enough with B's positions to know when I'll likely disagree with him (and this is probably not an exception) I also generally prefer to not make an ass of myself. So I tend to wait until he makes an actual statement worth challenging before raising issue. That way I have a real argument to present based on stated positions, rather than what someone migh seem to refer to with their anonymous pronouns.
 
337Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Thu, Mar 15, 2007, 14:58
Actually, the "they" Baldwin refers to, I'm sure he'd say, transcends any "left" v. "right" dicotomy.

Where are you getting a shot at "leftists" sarge? Just making it up?
 
338sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Mar 15, 2007, 16:12
Well gee MBJ...The German Govt would fit most any definition of "left leaning" vs "conservative right".....Baldwins general position is to verbally assault anything left of himself, his past MO has been to categorize all things as either Christian and conservative or leftist and heathen.

Didnt figure it took a rocket scientist to follow his general methodology.
 
339Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Mar 15, 2007, 16:39
Obviously not!
 
340Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Thu, Mar 15, 2007, 18:48
It's the same people who brought us 'Goals 2000'. You'll find state legislatures and exective branches of both putative persuasions have pushed that along.

Globalism infects both sides, as Bush's 'thousand points of light' and 'new world order' comments reflect.

Those hammers and tongs keep hammering no matter which 'side' is in power.

I've been meaning to write one more thread explaining this, not that I haven't tried before.

It's the end result of 'the dialectic' leftist intellectuals used to go on and on about deliberately being as inaccessable as possible. I know Tree doesn't have a clue what I'm talking about and Sarge wouldn't admit it if he did.
 
341sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Mar 15, 2007, 19:14
"globalism", is an inevitable transormation in human society. We started as very small clans. Then as communication capacity improved, tribes. Then small towns and villages. Next cities and states to oversee those cities. Nations to oversee the states. The eventual and ultimate "globalism" into a singular "human" culture, is as unavoidable as is getting wet when you stand naked in a rainstorm.
 
342Tree
      ID: 332221518
      Thu, Mar 15, 2007, 20:42
I know Tree doesn't have a clue what I'm talking about

probably not. why? because i don't speak "f*cking crazy", which is what your loony ass trafficks in.
 
343Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Thu, Mar 15, 2007, 22:43
"globalism", is an inevitable transormation in human society.

Yeah, Baldwin. Haven't you seen Star Trek?
 
344Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Thu, Mar 15, 2007, 23:44
Tree, that is exactly what monkeys are thinking when you try to talk to them.
 
345Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 05:40
Sarge, here is a test:

Finish this sentence..."Absolute power ______.".
 
346sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 10:03
...is every politicians wet-dream.
 
347katietx
      ID: 3810431417
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 10:07
Its nice to have Baldwin back...we (I) really did miss his trolling levity.
 
348Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 10:35
Bzzzt...looking for an answer that has a rock solid chance of predicting the nature of this 'inevitable outcome'.

Hi Katie. 8]
 
349sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 10:43
well, then you need look no further than Washington DC, and no further back than the timeframe covered since Nov 2000.

Politicos are what they are. Whether that power spans a municipality, major metro, state, nation or continent. I dont see anything to make me think that the very nature of one drawn to such a position, is ever going to change dramatically.

Isolationism, the only viable counter to globalism, has never been long-term succesful. I see the evolution as inevitable, primarily from an economic stance. Between the necessary tarde treaties/arrangements/agreements, the rapidity and reliability of communication/travel on a global scale, the ability to move goods across the globe faster than they can execute a border crossing/inspection...all leads to the same conclusion. The elimination of borders and/or trade/economic barriers.

Do I think we'll see it in our lifetime? No. Nor in our childrens, nor most likely in our grandchildrens. 5 or 6 generations down the line? I think it'll be clearly well underway.
 
350Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Apr 17, 2007, 14:30
Sarge#346

Dilbert channels Sarge.
 
351Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 03:23
Looks like they found '16 year old Sarrah'...

Texas Rangers flew to Colorado Springs, Colo., and participated in the arrest of a 33-year-old woman who was charged with filing a false report.

Colorado Springs police said in a statement that "The Texas Rangers were in Colorado Springs Wednesday as part of their investigation involving the compound in Texas."

Colorado Springs police said in a statement that "The Texas Rangers were in Colorado Springs Wednesday as part of their investigation involving the compound in Texas."

...

Just count the number of 'public service' commercials in non-peak radio hours exhorting you to call if you merely have an unfounded suspicion so they can get the removal ball rolling.

It's the 'village' knocking and they want to raise your kids. They could be investigating the men in this compound but their eagerness betrays their real goal. They don't want the perps if there are any. The 'public services' just want more kids and more federal bounty money.
 
352Tree
      ID: 32330188
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 10:34
is your implication that it was wrong for the government to come in and take away kids that were being forced to be married off and have sex as very young teenagers?

and by that, are you in support of polygamy, as well as children being forced to have sex with adults?

i ask that seriously, and not in jest or a mocking tone, because if you are against what the government just did with that polygamist sect...
 
353Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 16:24
If you actually have any proof that will hold up in court...haul the men away who are abusing, don't add the children to your trophy collection of state sponsored kidnapping.
 
354Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 16:34
B - We don't leave pregnant 13 year olds with their rapist or with those who allow them to be raped.
 
355Tree
      ID: 03261815
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 17:31
If you actually have any proof that will hold up in court...haul the men away who are abusing, don't add the children to your trophy collection of state sponsored kidnapping.

i think MBJ pretty much covered it, but you're kidding, right?

you're talking about a large group of people, where people allowed their children to be impregnated when they were as young as 13.

and we're not talking about teenage girls running around town to get laid, and then accidently getting knocked up.

we're talking about a society that not only encouraged, but possibly forced these girls to get pregnant. and if the women were allowing their daughters to be raped by these men, do we want the children staying with those women!?!?

is this seriously what you're advocating?
 
356Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 20:49
MBJ

Then arrest the rapists and stop revictimizing the women and children.

While you are at it take a harder look at just how dangerous foster families are for those children you are ripping out of the arms of their mothers. Get out of the kidnapping racket, MBJ.
 
357Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 20:53
Tree

Convict enuff of those men and the problem will be solved or solve itself before you manage to work your way entirely thru the male population there.
 
358Perm Dude
      ID: 16316187
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 20:56
Removing children from obviously dangerous circumstances isn't the same as kidnapping them. Your problem is with the judgement of those who make the decisions to remove children from their homes. It shouldn't be to advocate keeping children in awful places simply because to remove them would be "kidnapping."
 
359Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 21:10
They're not being held in a dungeon. They're practicing what they've been taught all their lives. This isn't the first time the state has felt it needed to modify mormon behavior and it seems they managed to rein in polygamy more or less without hauling them all off to jail. I'll grant that the leaders here are trying to tie them down to the community before they ever get an opportunity to make up their own minds and that is reprehensible but making these mothers out to be unfit mothers is a bit much.
 
360Perm Dude
      ID: 16316187
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 21:14
They're practicing what they've been taught all their lives.

This isn't a description of legal (or ethical) behavior, Baldwin. This is an excuse for doing something because that is what you've always done.
 
361Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 21:18
Get out of the kidnapping racket, MBJ.

Just as soon as their fathers and mothers get out of the promotion of child prostitution business and you get out of the business of defending pedophilia. What part of this group of pedophiles and thier willing enablers do you think needs to be passed on to the next generation of innocents.
 
362Tree
      ID: 193251819
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 21:33
Convict enuff of those men and the problem will be solved or solve itself before you manage to work your way entirely thru the male population there.

in the meantime, however, there is a set of rules in place to keep order. and for better or for worse, that means removing the children from what is obviously a very frightening situation.

whether they had a choice or not, the mothers were certainly involved. while it puts them in a difficult situation, it doesn't necessarily make them innocent.

They're practicing what they've been taught all their lives.

and so was jeffrey dahmer. didn't make him any less guilty.

This isn't the first time the state has felt it needed to modify mormon behavior

actually, it was this religious sect that modified mormon behavior, as they are the ones who strayed from the teachings of the contemporary mormon religion, which does not allow for polygamy.

...but making these mothers out to be unfit mothers is a bit much.

again, if the mothers allowed the raping of their children to go on - even if they didn't know any better or were unable to know better - it doesn't make them any less guilty.

it sure sounds to me like you're supporting those who allow pedophilia to go on right under their noses.
 
363Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 22:26
Frightening to who? You have a single witness from that compound willing to say that? Find a girl in there willing to say they were raped?

Troll...dahmer was taught that all his life, was he? By who? Why do I bother with you?

I don't know how these people got their cultural views on the age of majority from the era and culture of Muhammad's day aparently and I am not real comfortable with the state telling religions what they can believe even in this case, but it can be addressed by prosecuting the perpetrators not the victims certainly.
 
364Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 22:31
B - The fact that the 13 year old is pregnant means she was raped - unless she's the Virgin Mary.
 
365Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 22:42
Fair point. I'm not for polygamy or allowing ages of majority this country has never tolerated just because some religion approves.
 
366Tree
      ID: 48341821
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 23:11
Frightening to who? You have a single witness from that compound willing to say that? Find a girl in there willing to say they were raped?

dude. she was 13.

dahmer was taught that all his life, was he? By who?

by himself. most serial killers begin their descent into killing humans at a very young age, and are self-taught that it's acceptable. they often start with small animals, and work their way up.

it is unacceptable every step of the way, but it's learned behaviour, and in their minds, acceptable. very few serial killers (as oppposed to spree killers), randomly start killing as adults.
 
367Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 23:23
Go away Tree.

MBJ

Got any H'mong immigrants in your neck of the woods? How does the law treat them?
 
368Tree
      ID: 48341821
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 23:43
No Baldwin, i won't go away.

everything in my post 366 was legitimate, and although you seem more interested in dismissing me and calling me a troll, nothing in that post is remotely trollish.

if you've got an issue with that post, answer it. deal with it. but don't run off from it, and act like it doesn't exist.

you won't see me doing like you do - calling others names and such. you won't see that. but, you will see me calling things as i see them, and if that puts some fear into you, so be it.

but your avoidance of this topic that YOU started in the wee hours of the morning speaks volumes. not only are you ignoring my questions, but now you're steering the conversation with mbj in a different direction.
 
369Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 23:54
I think MBJ will understand and I'm too bored with you to explain it to you.
 
370Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 06:20
Tree

AFAIK no one in that compound is cooperating with authorities even so much as to give their ages.

Using an analogy between them and Dahmer was as uncalled for, inapropriate and illogical as we've come to expect from your taste-free posting.
 
371Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 06:29
Considering how well the government did last time they went into a religious compound to 'save the children' I think it's fair to keep a sharp eye on them this time.
 
372Tree
      ID: 5838196
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 08:23
AFAIK no one in that compound is cooperating with authorities even so much as to give their ages.

while not necessarily enough to cast guilt, it's certainly enough to cast suspicion, and in a case as extreme as this, it's best to err on the side of caution, and removing those children from an environment of possibly cultural rape is far and away erring on the of caution.

Using an analogy between them and Dahmer was as uncalled for, inapropriate and illogical as we've come to expect from your taste-free posting.

anytime i don't meet your ever-changing standards, i'm doing alright. the analogy was not between them and Dahmer, but rather an example of someone being taught something their entire lives that may not be correct. just because you're taught to do something since birth, does not make it right.

Considering how well the government did last time they went into a religious compound to 'save the children' I think it's fair to keep a sharp eye on them this time.

fair enough, even if it did happen more than 15 years ago. but if you're going to keep that sharp eye trained, keep it attuned to the fact that they government has already taken great steps to make things go differently.

there was no seige, no innocent losses of lives, no deaths whatsoever this time around. there really are two options when a group like this operates beyond the scope of the law - go in guns a blazing like we did in Waco, which we now know did not work; or let things unfold peacefully, and allow our court system - however flawed it might be, to process things in as timely a manner as possible.

 
373Seattle Zen
      ID: 29241823
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 10:56
If you actually have any proof that will hold up in court...haul the men away who are abusing, don't add the children to your trophy collection of state sponsored kidnapping.

Baldy, perhaps in God's Kingdom there is no need to have trials with people testifying under oath, rules of evidence and all that jazz, but in this world, convicting a large group of men does not happen over night. The children have to be some place secure.

Tree

is this seriously what you're advocating?

Yes, he is. If you haven't figured this out about Baldwin, short of murder, he does not believe in taking kids from their parents, at ALL. Who are we to tell these people that giving your 13 year old daughter to your 52 year old second cousin to "marry" is wrong, as long as there is a religious component? He'll cling to that forever.

Tree:

They're practicing what they've been taught all their lives.

and so was jeffrey dahmer. didn't make him any less guilty.


Baldwin is right, this is a horrible analogy, not anywhere near correct. You ought to withdraw this and try again.

Baldwin

Got any H'mong immigrants in your neck of the woods? How does the law treat them?

The law treats them just as anyone else. In Illinois, you must be 16 years old to get married. Anyone having sex who is younger than 16 or with someone younger than 16 is breaking the law. Pretty simple, really.
 
374Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 15:33
SZ

I can tell you that the H'mong girls are committed to marry several years earlier than that. [not consumated hopefully] Not saying it's a good thing. It's a cultural thing, not religious afaik.

I'm working on a thot experiment involving muslim culture that I think will reveal this to be a bit more complex than it at first seems.

I understand each state has it's own age of majority, and I think there is also an age of consent, also diffrent for each state. I forget exactly what each term means, why states vary, etc.
 
375Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 15:41
trials with people testifying under oath, rules of evidence and all that jazz, but in this world, convicting a large group of men does not happen over night. - SZ

No kidding. The government has been trying to nail this compound for decades and they can't get witness one to testify. There is a book titled @ 'When Men Become Gods' either out or about to come out about this.

So you are for tearing apart families and entire religions sans legal witnesses? Any bogus tipster will do?
 
376Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 16:03

Report on the judge's most recent ruling
"Basically, they're into match-making," he said of the sect, adding that girls who have refused matches have not been expelled.

"I believe the girls are given a real choice. Girls have successfully said, 'No, this is not a good match for me,' and they remained in good standing," he said.

Perry testified that the girls he interviewed said they freely chose to marry young. But he said those choices were based on lessons drilled into them from birth.

"Obedience is a very important element of their belief system," he said. "Compliance is being godly; it's part of their honoring God."

Perry acknowledged that many of the adults at the ranch are loving parents and that the boys seemed emotionally healthy when he played with them. When asked whether the belief system really endangered the older boys or young children, Perry said, "I have lost sleep over that question." [aka 'no, I can't really say that it would' - B]

Under questioning, Perry also conceded the children would suffer if placed in traditional foster care.

"If these children are kept in the custody of the state, there would have to be exceptional and innovative programmatic elements for these children and their families," he said. "The traditional foster care system would be destructive for these children."

At that, dozens of FLDS parents applauded.

Eugene Volokh, a UCLA law professor, said courts have generally held that a parent's belief system cannot, in itself, justify a child's removal. He said, for example, that a parent might teach his child that smoking marijuana is acceptable, but only when he helps the child buy pot does he cross the line.

"The general view of the legal system is until there is an imminent risk of harm or actual harm, you can't" take the children, Volokh said.

 
377Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 16:15
Oh, but this will fix them...
The Dallas Morning News reports that Texas comptroller, Carole Keeton Strayhorn, who hade conducted an investigation of the foster care system, concluded that up to $4 million a year might be wasted on drugs given to foster children for mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and depression.

Her investigation shows that 60% of children in the Texas foster care system are being drugged with powerful psychotropic drugs that have not been approved for children. Yet, "Children as young as 3 are receiving powerful, mind-altering drugs."

She suspects foster children are being given psychiatric drugs "so they're more docile, or so doctors and drug companies can make a buck."

A mother reported her son's experience with the antipsychotic drug, Zyprexa: "He put on a tremendous amount of weight, 85 pounds to be exact," she said, adding that as doctors continued to increase his medications starting at age 5, he experienced troubles in school and with the law and was hospitalized repeatedly."

The Houston Chronicle reports that Risperdal and Zyprexa - made up half of the drugs prescribed to foster children in Texas. These drugs are among the most dangerous of psychotropic drugs. They carry new FDA-required warnings about diabetes, blood clots and strokes.

Dr. Tony Appel, a neuropsychologist from Florida who examined the Texas records agrees: "We're taking away their future. We're taking away their ability to relate to people; trust, love caring, ability to put yourself in the other person's shoes and see how they see you. We take all that away from these children. We blunt their emotion."

Ever protective of the drug industry, the Texas Medical Association expressed skepticism about Comptroller Strayhorn's concerns. It is appalling that the Texas Medical Association sees nothing wrong in violating medicine's first principle, "do no harm" - if doing harm increases profits for psychotropic drug manufacturers.
Taking notes, MBJ?
 
378Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 16:46
Send in the...



The results of the state of Texas official investigation of abuse in the Texas Foster 'Care' system...
In 2004, noted Strayhorn, 38 foster children were killed; 48 were killed the following year. In addition, "about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system."

"As alarming as these cases are," she continues, "we can only imagine how much worse the Fiscal 2005 data is because Gov. [Rick] Perry's Health and Human Services Commission has refused to provide the data needed to complete my investigation."

During 2004, "four-year-old twins living in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape," recalled Strayhorn. "A five year old boy in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape two days later. A 15-year-old girl who was not pregnant when she entered our state's foster care system in 2002 gave birth in February 2004....[A] 12-year-old boy died in December 2005, while in our state's care, at a facility that treats children with learning disabilities and emotional problems. The boy suffocated while being restrained from behind by an employee of the facility."

"The crisis is minute-by-minute and child-by-child," concluded Strayhorn. "I renew my call [to Gov. Perry]. He must act now to save children's lives."
________________________

Perry, or at least the government over which he presides, did eventually act to "save" children -- by conducting a potentially lethal military raid against a community where they weren't being abused, for the purpose of delivering them into a government-run system in which children are routinely killed, molested, and poisoned.

As an ABC News analysis points out, the DFPS legal strategy is to treat the people living in the YFZ enclave as a single household. In this fashion, under what the Texas government is pleased to call the "law," finding a single case of abuse within the community would be enough to justify keeping all of the children in permanent state custody.

Which means, of course, that they would become the property of a single collectivist "household." We could envision it as sort of a polygamous union between various foster homes and the state government, in its role as Parens Patriae. And in that collectivist household, abuse is widespread, frequently lethal, and protected by "law."
Save our children. Send in the APC's, free them from dangerous Texas foster care and return them to their families.
 
379Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 16:50
Wanna win me ove on this one, B? Make a case without relying heavily on anecdotal evidence.

38 deaths in 2004 and 48 in '05 sounds like a lot. Out of how manay in the system all together? How about some yearly numbers?
 
380Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 16:56
I'm done for the day most likely but it was enuff to get the powers that be to stonewall the investigation and refuse further cooperation so it is thus proven to be a severe problem that they don't dare allow see the light of day. The story is the same in every state. The system is essentially a meatgrinder for children.
 
381Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 16:57
What, 60% percent didn't sound like a significant fraction of the whole?
 
382Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 17:01
Or this multiplier?
But before the portcullis was slammed shut, the investigator learned that a child being raised in that system was four times more likely to die of criminal violence than a child in the general population.
From the same Texas investigation.
 
383Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 20:41
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
 
384Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 21:56
Michael Reagan's take on this.
Some 73 percent of the children put in foster care end up on the streets, or even worse, in jail

It’s obvious that the government...hasn’t got the slightest idea of how to raise children.

They know how to take children from their homes but they don’t know how to raise them once they’ve got them in their hands. Yet the idea that the government is better equipped than parents to raise children is widespread among the big-brother liberals who lust after inserting the power of the state into the very heart of the American family.

The reality is that when you take children from their mothers and put them in the hands of the state or its subordinate agents you ultimately do more damage to them than almost any abuse they might have suffered at home.

This is why I am calling on the Christian community and the churches to step up, take the children from the government, and assume their responsibility to keep these FLDS families together.

We need about 500 churches to take in 500 families. These children should be with their mothers, who are as much victims as their children are alleged to be. Splitting them up from their mother and their siblings is not going to be performing a service to these kids.

Just because we don’t agree with their lifestyle does not necessarily mean that we can do a better job than the mothers can do in raising them.

We should keep in mind that the allegations against the FLDS remain speculative and unproven, yet the government rushed in and disrupted whole families on the basis of a single phone call
 
385Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sat, Apr 19, 2008, 23:37
 
386Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 05:43
Another way to look at this situation. They were never a good interview so the media is giving them the Barry Bonds treatment. Too late for them to get a fair shake now.
 
387Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 06:05
The truth is that this was never ever about underage marriages. Parents give their legal permission for underage marriages in MBJ's neck of the woods every day of the week.

The following big brother globalist principle is what this was always about...
Homeschooling has been illegal in Germany since the days of Hitler, but the crackdowns seem to be tightening. In recent months homeschoolers have been fined the equivalent of thousands of dollars, had custody of their children taken away, had their homes threatened with seizure and in one case, that of Melissa Busekros, had a team of SWAT officers arrive on a doorstep with orders to seize her, "if necessary by force."
Why?
Wolfgang Drautz, consul general for the Federal Republic of Germany, has commented on the issue on a blog, noting the government "has a legitimate interest in countering the rise of parallel societies that are based on religion or motivated by different world views and in integrating minorities into the population as a whole."

Drautz said homeschool students' test results may be as good as for those in school, but "school teaches not only knowledge but also social conduct, encourages dialogue among people of different beliefs and cultures, and helps students to become responsible citizens."
Translation: You are going to hand your kids over to us for our secular humanist religious indoctrination or we are coming in and taking them.

Oh, they'll make understanding noises and nods of the head towards religious communities and homeschoolers while the governments go on advancing their plans, this is an unevenly growing juggernaut but this approach will become universal in your lifetime.
 
388Tree
      ID: 511251614
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 10:24
Baldwin - keep defending the forced impregnation of teenage girls. it's a great path to take.

this isn't about home schooling, religions we don't understand, or really any of the things you're trying to portray this as.

it is totally, and completely, about a sect of people that seems to be forcing its teenage girls to marry men who might be considerably older or close relatives or both, and then forcing those girls to have sex.
 
389bibA
      ID: 373401415
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 10:36
Tree - It would seem that Baldwin either realizes that what you say is true, and may feel that this is not our the government's concern because those in the concerned sect are merely following their religious practices, or that it (sex with underage children) is the lesser of two evils.

Unless he feels that the government just makes this stuff up, using it as an excuse to kidnap as many children as possible because those in the government are plain evil.
 
390Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 11:04
Learn to read...from court testimony already copied into the record here, not merely linked to...
"Basically, they're into match-making," he said of the sect, adding that girls who have refused matches have not been expelled."
Read that and reread it until it sinks in.
 
391Tree
      ID: 511251614
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 11:24
so, in other words, are you saying "as long as the 13 year old girls agree to the sex, then it's perfectly acceptable, since they are allowed to opt out"?

again, i am not trying to bait you in any way. i am asking you seriously, because that sure as heck seems like what you are saying, and if so, it's really, really disturbing.
 
392Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 11:47
Do you have any proof there is a pregnant 13 yr old in that group? I haven't seen it. All I have seen is evidence entered into court by witnesses friendly to the government, that girls weren't forced into anything.
 
393Tree
      ID: 511251614
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 12:11
nice avoidance of the question...
 
394Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 17:20
I'll address it when it becomes a fact entered into evidence.

As I pointed out in post #383, the religious leaders and abusers such as there are who are deliberately making it hard for those people to get free from that system are enemies of mine.

I am in the liberating business. I want to free you all from false religion. 'Proclaiming liberty' [- Bible] and getting the message into that compound has got to be nearly impossible. Save people from actual sexual abuse if you can accertain that. That would be a legitimate government function but you don't go destroying the village to save it.

The government's own investigator speaking about the dangerous Texas Foster 'Care' system...
"The crisis is minute-by-minute and child-by-child," concluded Strayhorn. "I renew my call [to Gov. Perry]. He must act now to save children's lives."
ProLiberate Blog..."
Perry, or at least the government over which he presides, did eventually act to "save" children -- by conducting a potentially lethal military raid against a community where they weren't being abused, for the purpose of delivering them into a government-run system in which children are routinely killed, molested, and poisoned.


 
395Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 18:06
I'll address it when it becomes a fact entered into evidence.

If you had your way, we'd never get to that point.
 
396bibA
      ID: 373401415
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 18:09
Do you have any proof there is a pregnant 13 yr old in that group? I haven't seen it. All I have seen is evidence entered into court by witnesses friendly to the government, that girls weren't forced into anything.

If evidence is eventually presented that these activities have been occurring, would a person who believes that the government is so evil that it kidnaps children for the purpose of delivering them into a government-run system in which children are routinely killed, molested, and poisoned actually accept this evidence? I would imagine that this person would attack every bit of proof offered up by such an institution this wicked.
 
397Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 18:17
Actually the government already put their leader in jail prolly for the rest of his life and you didn't hear a peep out of me defending him bcause I assume they actually have the proof in his case.

I would insist only the perps be prosecuted of course. Punishing innocent people is unjust by definition.
 
398Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 18:19
Proof of what, Baldwin? You don't have a problem with him being in jail because you assume that they have proof, yet you don't believe they have any proof the children were in any danger? WTF?

Why do you think he's in jail? Littering?
 
399Tree
      ID: 511251614
      Sun, Apr 20, 2008, 18:23
I'll address it when it becomes a fact entered into evidence.

wow. mind blowing.

so, if a father is accused of raping his daughter, they shouldn't remove her from the home?

we're talking about over 400 children in this sect Baldwin.

should we allow the raping to continue just because we don't have easy access to get in and see if these kids are being raped with 100 percent certainty?

more importantly, you continue to avoid the question, much the same way the members of this sect continued to avoid authorities.

honestly, the natural conclusion here is that if it's in the name of religious freedom, you are in favor of raping children.

i'm not trying to goad you into anything here, but you're constantly avoiding answering a question who's answer should be a very simple "i am against teenage girls being forced to have sex with adults, under any circumstances."
 
400Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 13:50
PD

How many times do I have to say 'handle this like any other sex abuse case if you even have a case'.

The abuser is in jail. No other abuse has been proven. If you have proof of another case then charge the actual perp and punish him.
 
401Perm Dude
      ID: 2332219
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 13:54
This isn't just about punishing the abuser. This is also about removing children from abusing situations. Don't pretend to be dense. You don't want the state to step in when children are being abused (or, using some twisted logic, they need to prove the abuse before beginning the case to prove the abuse). You only want them to punish the abuser, but leave the abused twisting in the wind because (God forbid!) the state would try to do something good.
 
402Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 14:48
Remove abuser, abuse stops, problem solved.

Kidnap 418 kids and never give them back, living hell for thousands, happy Perm Dude.
 
403Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 15:14
Remove abuser, abuse stops, problem solved.

Kidnap 418 kids and never give them back, living hell for thousands, happy Perm Dude.

so, which is it? take the abusers away, or give the kids back to the abusers? you can't have it both ways.

that aside, your example works in only the very simplest of cases. do you honestly believe that in a full-scale assault on children such as what is alleged to have gone on at that sect in Texas, that removing one or two adults will solve the problem?

this was an abuse situation on a massive, massive scale. some of those that were at one point abused themselves became abusers, and so on, and so forth.

in the meantime, we should leave the children with potential abusers?

i stand by #399.
 
404Perm Dude
      ID: 2332219
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 15:23
never give them back...

I thought your religion frowned upon charlatan fortune tellers who claim to know the future...
 
405Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 15:25
The disingenuous bigotry of CPS' action is perhaps best revealed by comparing the pregnancy rates of the supposedly abused teenage girls at the FLDS compound with the rest of the teenage Texan population. Voss stated that five of the 416 children were pregnant or had given birth; assuming that half of the 416 are female, that is a pregnancy rate of 24 per 1,000. The Texas pregnancy rate among women 15 to 19 is 101 per 1,000. It's also worth noting that the "numerous" pregnant 13-year-olds hypothesized by one government worker mysteriously transformed into five "under 18s" when Voss testified.

 
406Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 15:26
SOP

Deliberate fait acompli.

Comprende?
 
407Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 15:30
do you honestly believe that in a full-scale assault on children such as what is alleged to have gone on at that sect in Texas, that removing one or two adults will solve the problem? -Tree

Removing the leaders of the Texas CPS couldn't hurt.
 
408Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 16:03
again Baldwin, you are avoiding the topic and questions poised to you with a series of red herrings, strawmen, and whatever evasive techniques suit your mood.

Voss stated that five of the 416 children were pregnant or had given birth; assuming that half of the 416 are female, that is a pregnancy rate of 24 per 1,000. The Texas pregnancy rate among women 15 to 19 is 101 per 1,000.

so, by posting this statistic, are you saying "well, because the rate of teen pregnancy in this religious sect is less than the texas average, i've got no issues with those teenage girls being raped, and i find it perfectly acceptable"?

my guess is yes, considering the columnist you linked to has said there is no difference between a woman who cheats on her husband and a man who rapes a woman...
 
409Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 21:22
If there are 5 underage Catholic girls should we kidnap all Catholic children?
 
410Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 21:23
If there are 5 underage pregnant Catholic girls should we kidnap all Catholic children?
 
411Tree
      ID: 113382118
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 21:54
again Baldwin, you are avoiding the topic and questions poised to you with a series of red herrings, strawmen, and whatever evasive techniques suit your mood.

i've little doubt at this point that as long as it's in the name of God, you're willing to tolerate the raping of children. not to say you are condoning it - as there is a difference - but, perhaps, you see it as inevitable collateral damage.

If there are 5 underage pregnant Catholic girls should we kidnap all Catholic children?

if they are part of an offshot of Catholicism that is living out of the main religion on a ranch/compound, and they're being raped, then yea, we remove all the children from that ranch until the situation can be sorted out.
 
412Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 23:48
Is I suspected, it's just minorities that we are currently allowed to harrass in this way. We'll move onto harvesting children from the mainline churches after people are conditioned to seeing children as property of the state.
 
413Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 06:13
Since Madman, Boldwin and I obliterated Mith and the others in the Obama thread, I'll turn my attention here.

Boldwin: If there are 5 underage pregnant Catholic girls should we kidnap all Catholic children?

Obviously yes. Don't you know that the government just loves our children, especially the unborn, and the left champions that cause? And if your child is from a communist country that we almost fought a nuclear war over, they are all too happy to take that child off your hands and ship them back to that dictatorship. They'll even supply the submachine guns to point in their face for free.

I suppose if the government parked an armored vehicle outside the church where the illegal alien in Chicago was taking refuge and then proceeded to remove her by force if necessary then the stench of hyprocrisy wouldn't have me vomiting. Until then...
 
414Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 06:38
Phony 'Sarah' is actually an Obama delegate.
 
415Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 06:45
LOL! In order to win an argument you have to actually counter points that your advarsary makes! I've never heard of politely stepping out of a discussion (or in Boldwin's case, simple mockery and avoidance) defined as winning, much less "obliteration". But to each have own. I'll have to remember that next time you back out of a discussion with a proposal that we agree to disagree.
 
416Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 06:46
LOL! In order to win an argument you have to actually counter points that your advarsary makes! I've never heard of politely stepping out of a discussion (or in Boldwin's case, simple mockery and avoidance) defined as winning, much less "obliteration". But to each his own. I'll have to remember that next time you back out of a discussion with a proposal that we agree to disagree.
 
417Tree
      ID: 45338224
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 06:46
the last two posts helped take this thread from the ridiculous to the sublime. we have one guy who tolerates child rape, and another guy who manages to bring abortion, war, and immigration into a debate that is not about any of those things.

good to know that when faced with the rape of children, two of our more conservative posters here seem to have no problem covering up, hands over eyes, ears, and mouth with the "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" manra.
 
418Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 07:02
ACLU is considerably upset by the legal undue process. I say that not knowing if their involvement is a good thing.
 
419Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 07:07
So far your proof of 'rape' amounts to one black Obama delegate three states removed, upset at FLDS racial beliefs, making a false report.

If not accepting that at face value amounts to tolerating child rape around here then it's not much of an honor being a part of this community of 'intellectuals'.
 
420Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 08:10
OK, just so Tree can stop fantasizing about how I feel about issues lets mention lots of them, most of which never crossed the ganglia between Tree's several neurons.

The single creepiest thing about FLDS [and most if not all polygamist sects it would seem]...
  • The lost boys...it seems polygamist leaders have a really creepy need for hoarding wives that neccessitates them kicking out the competition. They end up finding frivilous excuses to remove sincere idealistic young men who are suddenly told out of the blue that they are out of the community and gonna die out of God's favor. Again these guys haven't done anything wrong even by the rules of the community. The leaders just need to thin the competition for mates. That these reasons are frivilous becomes obvious by merely looking at the ratio of the sexes being expelled.

  • Polygamy...well polygamy isn't actually the worst human institution ever invented. What I don't understand is how someone claiming to be Christian can ignore Jesus' own words on the subject when he said God had only tolerated the people's demands for it but that he himself did not approve. There is definately a flaw in the motives of the leadership there.

    BTW there is a big reason IMO that polygamy hasn't been made an issue in this case at least by the media who you would expect would be doing cartwheels over this. Polygamy has been stripped of the 'unpopular marriage/commitment element' and renamed polyamory and immoral society is trying to popularize it! Of course maybe the media is just keeping their powder dry and will pull that issue out and use it when the rest of the legal case starts to crumble but I think I nailed it with the first idea.

  • Leaders doing matchmaking...I am way stomach turned by this practice which happens with Moonies and other religions as well. I've run into some really heartrending tales of wives who were casually reassigned by Jeffs when he turned on a male member of the group. One guy who had been prominant in the group and had donated over 350k once, displeased Jeffs when Jeffs took over from the previous leader this guy lost his family.

    My cultural background makes me revolted even by arranged marriages by parents of the children but I have to admit there are many many cultures where this is the norm and frankly the results aren't worse than our culture when it comes to producing happy marriages.

  • Coersion...this is one of the few times that the government has a legitimate role to play. I have a problem with any group that makes it impossible to leave or think straight. Moonies and other cults deliberately protein and sleep depriving their members for example. I am real skittish about any group that insists that funds be turned over to the community and then the prospect of poverty if they should pull away is used to bind them to the group. This appears to be at play in this group in a major heavy-handed way. I am not sure how the government should deal with this and open to persuasion on this point.

  • Whether they coerce underage girls to have sex is effectively negated by the fact admitted into evidence by the government's own expert witness that the girls were free to turn down the suggested matches and were not intimidated with the prospect of expulsion of they did so.

  • pedophilia...I am strongly against this so much so that I seem to be the only one around here livid that NGO's are busy as we speak trying to promote the idea at the UN that this is a human right of children to engage in. That is actually happening and seeping carefully couched into UN pronouncements.

  • The real kicker...

    The globalists are not only trying to turn pedophilia into a human right but they are also far along the path of making it illegal to teach your own children values that these globalists disagree with. They are moving to make parents have to pass lisencing requirements that would ensure that you will teach their values. Anyone who doubts me should research this.

    The upshot is that the same people on this thread trying to paint me as tolerating child rape will someday be the same people on board the bandwagon insisting that parents teach globalist approved values including pro-pedophilia or lose their parental rights.

    That is the danger of being a bunch of easily led eloi who refuse to take a hard look at where they are being led.
 
421Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 08:35
While we are at it...

  • The women have unibrows, bad do's and their momma dresses them funny...so what?

  • They live in dorms...if it's sinister I haven't figured that out yet.

  • There were a couple beds or cots in the temple...no one has any evidence that is sinister, for all I know it was a first aid cot or a breakroom at this point.

  • The women talk meekly...yeah, so?

  • They avoided public attention...well of course with America's historic welcome to the Mormons you would expect them to be more outgoing.
 
422Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 09:22
  • Then there is the issue that Texas in all history before this group moved into state, was perfectly fine with fundamentalist baptists or anyone else offering parental consent to marriages as young as 14 but they moved the age up to 16 just to nail this group. Selective prosecution in Texas' case and selective outrage in everyone else's.
 
423Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 09:40
So far your proof of 'rape' amounts to one black Obama delegate three states removed, upset at FLDS racial beliefs, making a false report.

so now race plays an issue? it matters that the person who filed the report is black?

between Tree's several neurons

good to see that while the rest of us have been busy elevating our discussions and avoiding insults, you can't get out of your habits.

while you mentioned about you were against coercion and pedophilia, i actually didn't see you say you were against the teenage girls being pressured to have sex with adult men.

you seem to possibly imply that, but it's often very difficult to understand your implications because they are intentionally vague and give you wiggle room - that's why i am trying to nail down your position on a simple yes/no statement.



 
424Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 09:43
Position [blog post] of somone who worked in Juvenile Justice for a year...
Come On! What Texas did to these kids was so unnecessary and so brutally harmful it should be an example for future cases of what “not” to do.
 
425Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 09:45
If that was what explains their motive then yes it matters.

Sorry you have trouble comprehending.
 
426Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 10:49
cute little article there. much easier to write to do what he suggests, than actually to do.

in a situation like that, you can't just go in with a list and say "we need Cedric Johnson, Molly McGee, Jonas Stauffenberg, and Jennifer Tompkins". it needed to be broad and sweeping, because there wasn't simply any way to identify the individuals because of the scope of the situation.

if the parents did nothing wrong, then the children will eventually be returned to those parents. sometimes, you have to cause short term pain for long term gain. it's unfortunate, but it's a daily part of child-rearing.
 
427Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 11:02
They will never return those kids. This was transparently meant to destroy that religion and exert the state of Texas' legendary heavy handed 'justice'.

In every state funds meant to help reunite families are drastically cut and that avenue starved while the agency is paid a bounty by the federal government every year on the number of kids kidnapped over and above the previous year.

It's a vicious machine.
 
428Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 11:19
They will never return those kids. This was transparently meant to destroy that religion and exert the state of Texas' legendary heavy handed 'justice'.

if they know who the parents are, and the home is safe for their return, the children will be returned.

as for this "religon", if it truly condones polygamy and forced sex between adults and children, then really, should it be allowed to exist?

 
429Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 11:33
Until you come up with a scintilla of evidence that 'forced sex' is a community-wide problem there, repeatedly bringing up the phrase 'forced sex' is simply a red herring and figleaf to cover up bad government.
 
430Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 11:36
You might as well ask me when I am going to stop beating my wife in very post as make that unsupported accusation.
 
431Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 11:45
Boldwin

Do you believe Warren Jeffs was wrongly convicted or that Flora Jessop is a liar?
 
432Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 13:12
MITH

I haven't looked into it but as I've said I assume they have the goods on him.

So, you guys are really quite the sex police. How old were you two when you lost yours?
 
433Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 13:17
? Where have I commented on this story?
 
434Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 13:26
That's actually really funny coming just a couple of hours after telling me that I'm weighed down under the false impressions about your opinions.
 
435Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 13:37
Until you come up with a scintilla of evidence that 'forced sex' is a community-wide problem there, repeatedly bringing up the phrase 'forced sex' is simply a red herring and figleaf to cover up bad government.

if it's institutional, it's a problem. that's why it's being investigated. news at 11.

How old were you two when you lost yours?

care to hazard a guess?
 
436Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 13:48
I'm guessing you brag about it out of one side of your mouth and police it from the other.
 
437Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 14:08
care to hazard a guess?

14


months :)
 
438Perm Dude
      ID: 2332219
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 14:09
I was legal. That's all I'm saying.
 
439Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 14:52
Unfair side of this infinity+1...
Texas' taxpayers get to foot the bill for the hundreds of lawyers who will descend on the courtroom at their expense to "advocate" for the children – as it is called in CPS administrative court parlance. I don't know if anyone has bothered to tally up what this may cost the taxpayers but it could easily reach 8 figures by the time everything is said and done. And not one of those state-paid lawyers will be arguing that the State's action is constitutionally unjust. Quite the contrary. They'll be counseling their "clients" to cooperate and make it easy on everyone.

 
440Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 14:54
Just how hard it is to get out. This goes to the coersion concerns. Yes MITH, I believe her.
 
441Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 15:15
Boldwin

Will your opinion of the handling of this case change at all if the available DNA samples consistantly confirm statuatory rape?
 
442Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 15:41
I'm guessing you brag about it out of one side of your mouth and police it from the other.

yea, well you'd be wrong. the truth, and the answer i give when asked, are exactly the same.

but i'd be curious as to what your guess is. so, go ahead, armchair analyst, tell me at what age i lost my virginity.

and SZ, you're off by a few...months....

#441 made me chuckle.
 
443Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 16:23
MITH

My opinion will change when the perps are put in jail and the children are returned to their mothers.
 
444Perm Dude
      ID: 2332219
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 16:30
Don't worry, B. You'll still have your anecdotes.
 
445Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 17:09
and the children are returned to their mothers.

All the children? I ask that because I don't know whether you believe a child should be returned to a mother who was complacent in her statuatory rape.
 
446Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 17:26
I am not willing to see the children put at risk of statutory rape and I think the government has a legitimate role in monitoring to prevent that.

Jeffs was/is a monumentally evil person. I can't link directly to it but scroll thru to the interview with with Brent Jeffs.

I am rethinking this whole thing from the angle that this society was a single coercive entity and can't be dealt with on an individual by individual basis. I don't see how you do that constitutionally tho. Prosecuting and punishing for collective guilt and 'minority report' style predictions of future crimes doesn't feel right either.
 
447Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 17:32
as long as we're OT, how old were you Baldwin?
 
448Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 17:45
I am rethinking this whole thing from the angle that this society was a single coercive entity and can't be dealt with on an individual by individual basis.

which, while this is being investigated, is EXACTLY what is happening, and EXACTLY what you have been railing against.

eventually, you need to break it down to the individuals, but in the investigative process, where we are now, they are looking at every thing, including the group dynamic.
 
449Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 17:50
MITH & Tree

You guys seemed to miss post 420, a post that I find quite exceptional. Baldwin actually Weighed Both Sides of many points! He admitted that he wasn't sure of a few things! Wow!

After reading so much loony bin Chicken Little crap from Baldwin, I was surprised with 420. Baldwin, my parents served as foster parents when we were little kids back in the 70's. Now, I was too small at the time, but I don't remember them going to any training to be a part of a "system in which children are routinely killed, molested, and poisoned." I can promise you that burying foster children was never a part of my chores.

Of course there are foster care horror stories, but anyone who spouts off such incendiary missives like "routinely killed" is begging to be ignored.

I don't like what has happened in Texas, but I also don't think for a second that those kids are going to be permanently removed from their families. In fact, I think the FLDS kids are going to be treated much better than most poor kids put into the system.

post 439 is pure crap. You don't have the faintest idea what goes on in court and NEVER will because you are so susceptible to right wing exaggerations and lies. You would much rather be told that your baseless fears and stereotypes are right than hear the truth. You've been that way the moment you stepped onto these boards and will be every time you leave.
 
450Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 18:04
SZ

I myself know 'salt-of-the-earth' foster parents and foster parents who are just doing it for the money and the free maid service.

Just because there are good ones doesn't excuse or fix the system.

You can just check the actual statistics before pretending the sky isn't falling for foster kids on the whole.

 
451Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 18:12
SZ

When you learn that 73% of foster kids as they age out of the system end up homeless or in jail, how do you find that acceptable or doing them a favor?
 
452Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 19:40
SZ

I find quite exceptional - SZ

I only show you the tip of the iceberg usually.
 
453Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 19:44
tip of the iceberg

So with each post, there is usually 90% more crap from where that came from?
 
454Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 20:05
You'd have to look pretty far to find a population of 'unfit mothers' who could underperform 73% homeless or imprisoned. Tweaker-drunk pop stars could outmother the foster care system. Even liberal mothers with a string of aborted babies could do better than 73% homeless or in prison.
 
455Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 20:31
You'd have to look pretty far to find a population of 'unfit mothers' who could underperform 73% homeless or imprisoned.

Baldwin - you don't live that far from me. I hearby authorize you to observe as many of my neglect/abuse dockets as you like. The number for the parents dealt with on that docket is more like 95%. See for yourself - a rare opportunity. I'll even work the dockets you observe (a considerable concession on my part, believe me - thise things suck).

There is a subclass of parents that coulldn't raise a cat.
 
456Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 20:34
After reading so much loony bin Chicken Little crap from Baldwin, I was surprised with 420. Baldwin

I wasn't. You guys miss a lot of Baldwin's good stuff because of your Lefty prejudices.
 
457Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 20:49
MJB

I love you man, but puhleeze read the parent's side of the story in thousands and thousands of tear your heart out websites all over the web.

Children who are not allowed to tell their real parents what is going on in their foster homes. The heartless blackmailing of parents that the kidnappers do, the dishonesty of the kidnappers. Children the state keeps even when they haven't won their case. Well meaning foster parents induced to fill their charges with horrible drugs, the list of official abuses is endless and you are letting these government departments walk all over you and mislead you.
 
458Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 20:55
I think one that really tears my heart out is that these kids spend the first half of their incarceration hating their foster parents for being part of the system that kidnapped them, and the second part hating their real parents for not rescuing them. Highly unfair and that is the most likely source of salvation to avoid being in that 73% homeless and unemployed but by now they are estranged. By then the real parents are broken shells destroyed by the experience so hard pressed to save them. Makes me want to scream.
 
459Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 20:58
Don't be surprised if I take you up on that offer btw. Send me some names so I can help save them from you.
 
460Tree
      ID: 473562216
      Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 21:36
I wasn't. You guys miss a lot of Baldwin's good stuff because of your Lefty prejudices.

actually, i usually miss them because he has a hard time making a post without insulting me. if it's in the first line - as it was with 420 - i'm not going to bother reading the rest.
 
461Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Wed, Apr 23, 2008, 04:47
MBJ

Serious question. Every night on every radio station the government is using 'public service' free advertising to troll for narcs. They tell them to turn in their neighbors even if it's only a vague suspicion. Don't worry if you are correct, we'll take care of the rest.

Neighbors play their music too loud, have too many parties, don't wear enuff clothes for your prudish liking, suspect the cigarettes they smoke, think that ficus looks like an MJ plant, keep late hours so they must be using meth, any suspicion at all will do, nothing is worse than saying nothing, turn them in.

You are part of the 1984 system where you can trust no one and everyone is a spy. Are you comfortable with that?
 
462Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Wed, Apr 23, 2008, 04:52
Serious question #2...

Dept. of Kidnapping rule #1 is you start every investigation insisting the parents are guilty and that unless they admit to crimes they say they are innocent of, they will never see their children again.

How do you feel about taking such extorted testimony seriously and are you even aware that has gone on in every instance?

Do you think such self-admitted tho non-existant crimes might make you feel that they cannot raise a cat?
 
463Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Wed, Apr 23, 2008, 06:16
If yoi are a person of integrity the first sentence out of your mouth should be, 'Was this 'confession' extorted out of you by the threat that you would never see your kids again if you didn't sign it?"

THe second sentence out of your mouth should be, "Your honor, I move that this document should be stricken from the record."

Yes I know that you are the prosecuting attorny inn these cases. You should be treating those 'confessions' like the toilet paper that they are.
 
464Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Wed, Apr 23, 2008, 11:06
Wow!
The FLDS has gone through several brutal succession battles; but so far, they've always ended with relatively peaceful acceptance of a new leader. This continuity is unusual among violent groups, and suggests a relatively low level of threat.

However, there are signs that the overall level of control exercised by FDLS prophets -- and the amount of abuse they dish out on their flock -- rose dramatically when Warren Jeffs succeeded his father as Prophet in 2002. Even though Jeffs is in jail for the next several years, the control and abuse levels in the group are considerably higher now than they were just a couple decades ago.

While earlier prophets have seemed willing to let the apocalypse come in God's own time, many people familiar with the FLDS found Warren Jeffs far more worrisome. John Dougherty of the Phoenix New Times, reporting in 2005 on the group's mass migration from Colorado City to the new colony in Texas, noted that Jeff's shiny new YFZ Ranch was far more tightly defended than the twin towns were. Former members told Dougherty that Jeffs was preaching "blood atonement" (the practice of killing apostates to save their souls) and took steps to install a crematorium in the YFZ temple capable of burning DNA. The New Times concluded that Jeffs was laying the groundwork for a violent Waco-style confrontation with authorities -- a confrontation that may have been averted when he was captured and convicted as an accomplice to rape last year.

Jeffs resigned as prophet last November. Since the church hasn't yet publicly named a new leader, it's hard to know how the community will respond to its current troubles.
 
465Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Wed, Apr 23, 2008, 16:50
MBJ

Just a guess...they've got a rule against this, right? You can't give me the phone numbers of the parties on the docket for next month, I call them, find out the outrageous conduct of the DCFS and report back to you? Because I would.

I am guessing there is a rule preventing you from finding out what really goes on. Contact between officers of the court and involved parties was ok when they conspired to murder Terri Schiavo but prolly enforced when it comes to saving families from being steamrolled.
 
466Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Wed, Apr 23, 2008, 20:13
Judge Barbara Walther, who is overseeing the YFZ Ranch case, yesterday declared: "The court has ruled the conditions those children were in were not safe for the children. I did not make the facts that got this case into the courts."

Excuse me, Judge? You issued a sweeping, house-to-house search warrant based on a highly questionable anonymous call that turned out to be phony. You refused to allow individual hearings for children, grouping them together like cattle. You accepted the testimony of an expert on "cults" who only learned about FLDS from media accounts, rather than an academic who'd studied them professionally for 18 years.

You've ruled the existence of five girls between 16 and 19 who were pregnant or had children was evidence of systematic abuse, even though in Texas 16-year-olds can marry with parental consent. You've ruled young toddlers are in "immediate" danger because of their parents' beliefs or what might happen 15 years from now, not because anyone abuses them. - NewsDallas Morning : via Volohk conspiracy
 
467Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Wed, Apr 23, 2008, 20:30
Excellent comment submitted at Volokh:
I'd rather be waterboarded many times over rather than have my infant taken away from me. Exactly what have these mothers done to their babies? Answer: nothing.

If this religion is actually a criminal conspiracy by the "elders" to abuse children, prosecute them for that, which would break up the "belief system" soon enough. But how is it helping under-5 kids to tear them away from their moms in the meantime?

It's amazing how any allegation of "child abuse" makes people lose all sense of proportion. (I remember myself being outraged at the Branch Dividians years ago--until I later learned that the allegations of child abuse were made up retroactively to justify the BATF's irresponsible behavior.)

Kind of like the way some people think that shouting "terrorist" removes all moral boundaries.
 
468Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Wed, Apr 23, 2008, 20:38
Another great one:
Would anyone here care to bet on how many of these 437 children will be abused and/or pregnant after a year of CPS's care??? Even IF the girls are being wed early with parental consent, after a year with CPS it will be proved that the children would have been FAR, FAR better off if CPS had left them alone.

But of course we will NEVER hear a word about what happened to these children after they disappear into CPS limbo. Just like it is impossible to find out what happens now to children in CPS's care. They must protect the children so they can't give out that data. Yea Right!! CPS will protect their asses no matter what happens to children in their care.
 
469Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Wed, Apr 23, 2008, 20:45
Further:
"
Rep. Harvey Hilderbran, R-Kerrville, the sponsor of the legislation, says his bill gave authorities the legal basis to enter the compound. He argues that the girl whose outcry of abuse resulted in the raid may not have qualified as a victim under previous statutes. Before 2005, Texas law allowed girls as young as 14 to marry with the permission of their parents.

"We know based on some of the cases — the main case — the girl is 16 now*, but we know that she wasn't 16 when she was impregnated," Hilderbran said. "This is a good policy change that led to intervention by the state."

Hilderbran's law upgraded the penalties for polygamy from misdemeanor to felony and raised the minimum age that minors with parents' permission can marry from 14 to 16."
Well no, Swinton is over 30 yrs old you dangerous moron.
 
470Tree
      ID: 143482317
      Wed, Apr 23, 2008, 22:02
well hell, we might as well do away with police departments and the entire court system.

we don't need to investigate anything, ever. the blogosphere has all the answers!
 
471Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Thu, Apr 24, 2008, 16:43


“So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause.” - Padme Amidala, ‘Revenge of the Sith”

 
472Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Thu, Apr 24, 2008, 19:47
Note this similarity between Waco and YFZ...

In each case they could have apprehended the suspect but were really there to destroy the religion and so they didn't persue the logical legal step of arresting the suspect.

Even more troubling is that they acted on a telephone call they knew was originating in Colorado, purporting that the victim speaking was in a Texas basement so there can't even be any wiggle room given Texas authorities that they might have thot they had just cause.
 
473Tree
      ID: 73302415
      Thu, Apr 24, 2008, 23:04
then, there are the facts:
More teenage mothers emerge in Texas polygamy probe

Texas authorities said on Thursday they identified 25 more mothers below age 18 among those removed from a polygamist compound, raising to about 460 the number of minors at the heart of a huge abuse probe...

...Texas welfare and law enforcement officials say they have uncovered evidence of widespread child abuse on the grounds, with adolescent girls being forced into unions with much older men.

The 25 additional teenage mothers who have been sorted from the adults and who initially claimed to be adults may provide prosecutors with more ammunition if it was found for example that some had become pregnant when they were in their early teens.


seems to me that if they had nothing to hide, they wouldn't have been hiding.
 
474Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 03:47
Cut-n-paste failure? Bad link.

So far everything I have read says that the government, both judge and dept, have been using their magical powers to detirmine ages and have dismissed all documentation provided as more suspicious than government magical guesswork.

I guess they can pierce right thru 'sweetness' with their ray vision.
 
475Tree
      ID: 57332254
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 06:41
pretty sure this is the same article...

Baldwin - everything indicates that this group operated in secrecy, and is doing its best to deceive investigators. everything they say has to be looked at with a raised eyebrow.

 
476Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 11:05
everything indicates that this group operated in secrecy, and is doing its best to deceive investigators. everything they say has to be looked at with a raised eyebrow.

This story has been front page news in Salt Lake from the beginning. Those of us who read the daily rag have been aware of the FLDS practices for years, the most disgusting being the arranged marriages of barely teenage girls to older men in the flock and the ostracization of those men who have had the fortitutde to challenge Jeff's authority(the Lost Boys).

However, the tactics employed in Texas make a mockery of due process. Sure, the FLDS are secretive. So are the Bloods, Crips, Aryan Nation and numerous other groups that routinely break the law. Can you imagine the uproar if DFS in Southside Chicago, inner-city Detroit or South Central L.A. did a wholesale sweep of children into state custody? No, they have to investigate each case and prove that abuse is occurring.

Additionally, many of these teenage FLDS teenage girls that are victims are now being victimized by the state of Texas by having their children taken from them.

It's hard to be an advocate for the FLDS, but one must realize that most of the parents of the 400 children now in state custody have broken no law, nor have they been shown to be abusive. And as Baldwin has pointed out, the cause for the raid hasn't passed the smell test and reeks of collusion and conspiracy.

The states of Utah and Arizona have handled the situation in Hilldale/Colorado City with the proper due process by taking each case individually and prosecuting when evidence has deemed appropriate. Pretty much the entire area has been under receivership for years, as authorities attempt to untangle the complicated web of property ownership, since the Church owned everything and dictated who would live where and with whom. The result is that authorities look the other way at their polygamous practices, as long as it established between consenting adults.

The Texas model appears to be an attempt to dissolve the polygamous aspects of the FLDS by using the children as weapons. It's not justice and it's a bad precedent.

 
477Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 12:04
*faint dead away*

I've watched this country going down the nazi/globalist path yelling 'look out' for a decade and I think that was the first time a liberal noticed and agreed with me unless you want to count Nerve.
 
478Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 12:29
The lawyers among us might partiularly like to see the bones of the procedure. At least at the appellate level.
 
479Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 13:12
I'll tell you who is always hiding and that's the 'child and family services' gestapo. They do everything they can to keep the story of what goes on in the 'system' from seeing the light of day. Including taking phones away from mothers so they can't talk to lawyers and take pictures. They were furious with boys in captivity who tried to reach out to the media from their holding pens. When these kids are placed they will be forbidden from telling their mothers what goes on in their faux families. I don't know how they do it but they get these kids intimidated out of talking.
 
480Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 13:44
I've been looking at a lotta photos and am struck by one archtypical image repeated over and over.

There are a lotta hard-as-nails bossy feminists in black pantsuits knocking around a lotta real women for the offense of liking feminity, being subordinate to men, and raising obedient well mannered respectful kids.
 
481Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 13:47
addendum: who would prolly be as happy as clams handing out condoms to a class of 70% sexually active school girls in public school.
 
482Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 14:38
“Moreover, prior to executing the initial warrant, (Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran) was advised that Dale Barlow was in Arizona and not on the premises sought to be searched. In fact, prior to entering the premises Sheriff Doran actually spoke to Dale Barlow in Arizona by cell phone, confirming his driver license number and the fact that he was in Arizona.”

Barlow advised the sheriff that he did not know Sarah Jessop, he had not been to Texas in over 20 years, nor had he ever been to Yearning For Zion Ranch, according to the filing. Thus, Goldstein argues, law enforcement had been advised and verified that the only person suspected of posing an immediate risk to children was not located at the polygamist compound.
Let's roll boys...

Aspen Daily News

If there wasn't a religion to destroy, any other case procedurally botched this badly would be thrown out of court.
 
483Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 14:47
The lawyer in the above story also represented 'outlaw journalist Hunter S. Thompson'. You gotta love that.
 
484Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 15:06
Wow, this thread was just entry #1 for google blog search FLDS. I'll have to take a look at how those rankings are made.
 
485biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 15:19
I think that google has searches that are customized to the searcher. I think you must have picked up that result, because we don't make the front page when I do it.
 
486biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 15:26
David Bernstein over at Volokh is the #1 hit for me, and he's on your side, Baldwin.
 
487Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 15:34
The ranking changes every second, that's all. Had you clicked when I did for blog search: FLDS this thread is what you would have gotten first return. But the question is what made it first? Views? I doubt it. Number of tagged words that applied in the thread prolly.
 
488biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 15:38
Far be it from me to shatter your delusions of grandeur, but I think you are wrong on this.
 
489biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 15:41
This is another example of the radical spectrum being a circle, not a line, btw. You and my sister's old Indy Media site are on the same page on this issue. (...and have a higher google rank.)
 
490Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 15:57
Polyamory, you know, polygamy without the committment, highly popular,
Results 1 - 10 of about 928,000 for polyamory
[figured I better turn off the filtering for that particular google search].

Underage sex: highly popular, anti-FLDS posters here almost tripped over each other bragging about how close to 13 their first time was.

TV prolly lionizes underage sex a hundred times a day.

Popular music sure isn't telling anyone to wait, unless you want to point out the one in a million Janet Jackson song.

Planned Parenthood is covering up and facilitating underage preganancy and abortion like it was a religious mission.

But for some reason we gotta go Waco all of a sudden on these people.
 
491Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 16:27
Cato Institute Daily Podcast
 
492Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 16:39
The women were given a choice to go back to the ranch or a "safe" location. Azar said seven went back to the ranch and 40 went to the other location.

Velvet, one of the women who returned to the ranch, said the others went with CPS, fearing they'd never be allowed to see their children again if they didn't.

Where the women chose to go has no bearing on the outcome of their custody cases, Azar said. The agency has said staff is working on plans to allow visitation.
Translation: In the complete absence of even one FLDS member coming forward and saying, 'thank you thank thank you for saving me', [surprisingly not even one] the CPS desperate to save face is going to claim that these 40 women chose the CPS's offer of safety from FLDS, when in reality they were led to believe this was the option most likely to see them reunited. The CPS is usually using this trick to get people to admit to abuse they did not do and agree to counselling they do not need.

 
493Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Fri, Apr 25, 2008, 17:04
The importance of getting them out of a parallel culture.
While the national teen birth rate has slowed, Texas has made far less headway, alarming public health officials and child advocates.

Texas teens lead the nation in having babies. Last month, the nonprofit group Child Trends conferred another No. 1 ranking on Texas. In the latest statistics available, 24 percent of the state's teen births in 2004 were not the girl's first delivery.
I guess they are saved now that they have entered mainstream Texas culture where teen pregancy is roughly 3 times higher than in the scary compound. Of course the foster 'care' environment is muuuuuuch worse in the sex abuse category, much much much worse.

 
494Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sat, Apr 26, 2008, 07:43


The prosecutors in black:
Marleigh Meisner
Angie Voss
Barbara Walther
Ellen Griffith

Transcript of re-education program being conducted at concentr...er coliseum...

"Our book reading today will be from "Heather Has Two Mommies" [whisper from audience, "but I already have two mommies"]

OK I rushed that last one, that scene will have to wait till public school.
 
495Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sat, Apr 26, 2008, 08:41
This comment/response from a poster at Volokh Conspiracy...[responding to the hard-as-nails feminists in black pantsuits comment of mine]
simone would approve:
"No woman should be authorized to stay at home to raise her children. ... Women should not have that choice precisely because, if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one."

Simone de Beauvoir'
 
496Tree
      ID: 38330269
      Sat, Apr 26, 2008, 11:32
Baldwin - what's the point of 494, and the comments about "Heather has Two Mommies"?
 
497Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Apr 26, 2008, 14:14
Tree: Are you as adament about law enforcement going into a religious compounded to arrest an illegal alien holed up there seeking sanctuary?

What if these people claimed sanctuary? Are they hands off like the woman in Chicago?
 
498Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sat, Apr 26, 2008, 16:19
Boxman, great catch. Our sanctuary movement liberals do indeed have a hole in their argument in this thread.

I'm not against them going into a religious compound at all. I have already stated that these people do need serious government monitoring. I mean Jeffs who is now in prison was rapidly getting more dangerous since his assumption of leadership in 2005 and was preaching that they should murder apostates to save their souls. There was one dude who needed someone lookin over his shoulder hardcore.

So I am not against the govrnment going into a religious compound and arresting a criminal or executing a search warrant.

This church sanctuary tradition is not in the Bible, btw. It is some arcane English historical development, afaik.

Tree

The power structure is not against non-traditional family structure whatsover unless there is a religion involved to crush. And the curriculum you would push in compulsory education does a wonderful job helping Jeffs teach his pople that the outside world is evil, dangerous and morally crazy.
 
499Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sat, Apr 26, 2008, 20:44
Texas tax dollars hard at work


Here you go, MBJ...Kentucky story part 1 and part 2



 
500Tree
      ID: 39322620
      Sat, Apr 26, 2008, 22:20
Tree: Are you as adament about law enforcement going into a religious compounded to arrest an illegal alien holed up there seeking sanctuary?

What if these people claimed sanctuary? Are they hands off like the woman in Chicago?


so, you're comparing illegal immigrants to child rapists?

lovely.

The power structure is not against non-traditional family structure whatsover unless there is a religion involved to crush. And the curriculum you would push in compulsory education does a wonderful job helping Jeffs teach his pople that the outside world is evil, dangerous and morally crazy.

so, what you're saying is that sane and rational people accept that two lesbians can raise a child, but whacked out loons cannot?

i'll buy that.

 
501Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 03:38
so, you're comparing illegal immigrants to child rapists? - Tree

I don't think that's even qualifies as an analogy. The question raised simply is do you believe in sanctuary or not? Let's consider examples and see. It's just a list of two sanctuary issues without a relative value judgement anywhere in sight.
 
502Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 03:41
Interestingly when the Bible uses the term stupid, the original term meant 'moral stupidity'.
 
503Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 03:51
...because Texas cares so much for the children...
"Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton, both already under siege for other matters, are now being accused of failing to prosecute officers of the Texas Youth Commission after a Texas Ranger investigation documented that guards and administrators were sexually abusing the institution's minor boy inmates," writes Corsi in a report for World Net Daily .

"Among the charges in the Texas Ranger report were that administrators would rouse boys from their sleep for the purpose of conducting all-night sex parties."

A 2005 investigation led by Texas Ranger Brian Burzynski revealed that systematic abuse of minors was commonplace at West Texas State School in Pyote, Texas. Burzynski presented the findings of the investigation to both Gonzales and Sutton but was rebuffed, and even received a letter from Sutton's office that attempted to legitimize the sexual abuse of children, claiming that "under 18 U.S.C. Section 242," it would have to be demonstrated "that the boys subjected to sexual abuse sustained "bodily injury," states the letter from Bill Baumann, assistant U.S. attorney in Sutton's office.

Incredulously, Baumann's letter goes on to make the case that the minors consented to and even enjoyed the acts of pedophilia, therefore no further action was necessary.

U.S. Attorney General Johnny Sutton.
In September 2005, the U.S. Department of Justice Civil Rights Division also refused to follow up with a prosecution.

According to Corsi, officials implicated in the scandal were hired despite their known criminal backgrounds and were also retained even after it was discovered that they were using state computers to regularly visit pornography websites.

"It basically sounds as if you wouldn't get hired in one of these facilities unless you were a pedophile," Corsi told the Alex Jones Show.

"You've got a culture of pedophilia that is at the core of the Texas Youth Commission, and what that means is you won't get hired or you won't stay as an employee unless you're willing to participate in the boy rape that's going on or keep quiet about it."

Corsi says he has further developments to report tomorrow that confirm the scandal is "Now known to be widespread, all the offices of the Texas Youth Commission throughout the state are involved and employees from the top to the bottom are all involved."

 
504Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 06:07
Tree: so, you're comparing illegal immigrants to child rapists?

That's the best answer you have? So, you would permit church sanctuary (in other words, gov't hands off) in the illegal immigrant case, but not with these people? What was your specific criteria for determining that?
 
505Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 09:12
so, you're comparing illegal immigrants to child rapists?

AFAIK, no one in this case has been charged with rape, either forcible or statutory. Instead, over 400 children have been taken into state custody, many from mothers who I presume you are implying are victims of rape.

 
506Tree
      ID: 48319277
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 09:20
That's the best answer you have? So, you would permit church sanctuary (in other words, gov't hands off) in the illegal immigrant case, but not with these people? What was your specific criteria for determining that?

again - i draw a distinction between illegal immigrants and child rapists.

AFAIK, no one in this case has been charged with rape, either forcible or statutory. Instead, over 400 children have been taken into state custody, many from mothers who I presume you are implying are victims of rape.

fair enough, PV. but in my opinion, you err on the side of caution here, as this a very large, and very confusing case is investigated.

as i previously stated, i do not believe for a minute this is a permanent situation for many of the parents and children.

and as a follow up to this question:
What if these people claimed sanctuary? Are they hands off like the woman in Chicago?

so, how do you feel about our government ripping children away from their parents - or even just one parent - because the children were born in the US and the parent - or one of the parents - were not?
 
507Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 09:24
Tree: Your attempts at deflection will not work in hiding your hypocrisy and the fact that you believe laws should only apply if you believe in them.
 
508Tree
      ID: 48319277
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 09:35
Tree: Your attempts at deflection will not work in hiding your hypocrisy and the fact that you believe laws should only apply if you believe in them.

no deflection here at all. my point is that we all can apply the laws to situations as we see fit.

you feel i have a double standard, i feel you have a double standard.

Baldwin is aghast as what is going on in Texas right now with this religious group, but in same state, families are being torn apart for issues of immigration status, and he has no problems with that.
 
509Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 09:56
Are the people involved with the religious group in Texas American citizens?

Is the woman hiding in a Chicago church an American citizen?

How can you not distinguish between an American citizen and a non-citizen?
 
510bibA
      ID: 253422618
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 13:58
How can you not distinguish between an American citizen and a non-citizen?

Perhaps Tree looks upon BOTH as humans deserving to be treated humanely.
 
511Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 14:06
Perhaps Tree looks upon BOTH as humans deserving to be treated humanely.

1) Is Tree incapable of answering for himself? The liberal to conservative ratio around here is bad enough without people putting words into someone's mouth who is losing a debate to Boldwin (primarily) and myself.

2) Then let's transfer that loving and caring to the unborn human lives that this country massacres. Since Tree is in the "loving everybody" camp, why not support military intervention globally to end dictatorships?
 
512Tree
      ID: 48319277
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 14:53
i'm out of this thread until it gets back into a reasonable realm of the senses.

we've traversed from the original case regarding the religious compound in texas to immigration, and now to abortion and the war in iraq.

it's just silly at this point.
 
513Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 15:24
Wah, they're asking Tree to be logically consistant in principle across all issues. And for the record no one is forcing a separation in the Chicago Illegal imigration case. She is welcome to take her baby with her.
 
514Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 15:28
Nor have I or any conservative here ever advocated that CPS steal anchor babies away from their mother's breasts.
 
515Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 16:47
Because Texas cares so much.

The legal aid society, which represents 48 mothers, said one 2-year-old child lost a severe amount of weight while staying at the San Angelo Coliseum.

TRLA said the organization was told two days ago that the child was in shock and lethargic, but has received no new information since then about where the child is or regarding her current health situation.

The mother is not being allowed to be with this child or her other nursing children, Chisholm said.

"We don't seem to be able to get in touch with anyone who can tell us," she said.

The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said Friday that one child had been hospitalized because of dehydration. Attempts today to contact CPS authorities were unsuccessful.

Some mothers have been unable to confirm where their children have gone and others have learned their children have been split up and sent to different locations. TRLA learned this morning that a child thought to be in a group home was actually in a hospital.

Some mothers, Chisholm said, "are trying to, sadly, figure out which child needs them more, a child in the hospital or a nursing baby," she said.
 
516Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 16:48
But then CPS has always been industrial strength 'Sophie's Choice'.
 
517Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 17:21
For many of us, the medieval Inquisition represents the epitome of officially sanctioned, sadistic lust for power. When, in modern social work, we sometimes force on an individual things which he himself rejects, our motives are surely better. Or perhaps not always? In my years of analytical work with social workers, I have noticed time and again that whenever something must be imposed by force, the conscious and unconscious motives of those involved are many-faceted. An uncanny lust for power lurks in the background; dreams and fantasies show motives which consciousness prefers to ignore...Quite frequently, the issue at stake appears to be not the welfare of the protected but the power of the protector. The imposition of a carefully justified measure against the will of the person concerned often gives rise to a deep sense of satisfaction in the case worker - the same kind of satisfaction felt by a schoolboy who has thoroughly beaten up another, proven himself the stronger, and thinks : ``That will show him! He'd better not fool around with me.''

Another interesting psychological phemonemon has struck me. The greater the contamination by dark motives, the more the case worker seems to cling to his alleged ``objectivity.'' In such cases the discussion of the actions to be taken in a case become[s] blatantly dogmatic, as if there could be only one correct solution to the problem...

Guggenbuhl-Craig Power in the Helping Professions p.7-8 via RHHardin commenting at the well famous and well respected Ann Althouse blog

 
518Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 17:36
Laws very spcifially tailored to target FLDS, something the sponsoring legislator is proud to tell you.

This is something that would seem to be illegal. I'll let our lawyers look over Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. the City of Hialeah.
 
519Boldwin
      ID: 573452112
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 17:45
"What is the difference between a pit bull and a child protective services worker? With a pit bull, you at least get part of your kid back!"
 
520Boldwin
      ID: 443322717
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 22:58
The move has the appearance of "a class-action child removal," said Jessica Dixon, director of the child advocacy center at Southern Methodist University's law school in Dallas.

"I've never heard of anything like that," she said.

Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, contends that the state has essentially said, "If you're a member of this religious group, then you're not allowed to have children." - AP

 
521Boldwin
      ID: 443322717
      Sun, Apr 27, 2008, 23:58
'Investigator'...or Torquemada in black pantsuit, depending on your POV, Angie Voss, the woman heading the state of Texas kidnapping efforts, also sits on the board of directors of 'Children's Advocacy Center of Tom Green County' which is apparently receiving a fundraising windfall from all the FLDS publicity.
The Children's Advocacy Center of Tom Green County has received hundreds of calls asking the same question over and over, "How can I help?"...the process is always costly both in terms of money and personnel...Sponsor me now...Click to provide financial assistance to the CAC
Members of the board, let's all give a round of applause to a real rainmaker.

Conflict of interest much?
 
522Boldwin
      ID: 443322717
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 02:19
Yes Bili, we share the same biology. The Russians love their children too. - Sting
 
523Tree
      ID: 16312818
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 20:09
now, to get this thread back on track...

Baldwin, post 490:
Polyamory, you know, polygamy without the committment, highly popular,

Polyamory isn't illegal. Polygamy is.

TV prolly lionizes underage sex a hundred times a day.

Popular music sure isn't telling anyone to wait, unless you want to point out the one in a million Janet Jackson song.

Planned Parenthood is covering up and facilitating underage preganancy and abortion like it was a religious mission.


this isn't about underage sex. this is about adults having sex with, and impregnating, minors. there is a HUGE difference.

But for some reason we gotta go Waco all of a sudden on these people.

you don't see the difference in the two raids? remember, David Koresh and his followers died.

Baldwin, post 493:
Texas teens lead the nation in having babies. Last month, the nonprofit group Child Trends conferred another No. 1 ranking on Texas. In the latest statistics available, 24 percent of the state's teen births in 2004 were not the girl's first delivery.

I guess they are saved now that they have entered mainstream Texas culture where teen pregancy is roughly 3 times higher than in the scary compound.


sorry, you got your facts wrong.

Nearly 60 percent of teen girls at FLDS ranch are pregnant or had baby

A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar. Two of those are pregnant now, he said; it was unclear whether either of those two already have children.

granted, that's no where near the number of children who the government took in, but, again, i maintain that in families where it is safe for the children to be returned, they will, indeed, be returned.

oh, and in case you were wondering about the whole consent issue, Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law.
 
524biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 20:27
Hey Baldy.

You know you make some great points, but you gotta realize you have a bit of a tendency to go all Terry Schiavo on us, inundating us with over-the-top name calling and links with little beyond propaganda value. This is almost baiting us to oppose you, and perhaps that's what you want.

If, on the other hand, you stick to more sound and reasoned links, lay off the references to the Spanish inquisition, and keep focused, you might actually get some converts. But maybe you aren't interested in that. Dunno.

Whenever I see people being demonized, similar to what I see from both the fanatical left and right, I generally just tune out. It makes the case much harder to prove to me, because I start with the assumption that you are a nutty crackpot.

I try to tell this to my sister, with limited results. My guess is it will fall on deaf ears with you as well, but I figured I'd put it out there.
 
525Boldwin
      ID: 443322717
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 20:27
Polyamory isn't illegal. Polygamy is. - Tree

You have committment issues? Obviously society would rather those girls were non-religious inner city girls having sex as flippantly and frequently as cussing. They'd hand em condoms and pat them on the head to build their self-esteem in that case.

this isn't about underage sex. this is about adults having sex with, and impregnating, minors. there is a HUGE difference. - Tree

I wouldn't have minded if they proscuted that and set monitoring in place to prevent it in the future. In fact that is my recommendation.

Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant - Azar, official CPS apologist

The truth of that remains to be seen. Presently their ages are complete guesswork since the judge and the CPS thru out birth certificate evidence without even looking at it and have mostly been going on Angie Voss's carnival guestimates instead.
 
526Boldwin
      ID: 443322717
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 20:31
Bili

I'm counting on you getting a chuckle out of the clever tweakage and recognizing the great points.

You are one person I was definately not addressing the brain tweezers post to in the Tech thread.
 
527biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 20:34
Yeah, I probably would if you were a bit more selective. I just don't have time to read through it all! I'm very busy these days. Your TS months basically stopped me reading your posts entirely. I'm willing to start again if the signal-to-noise is a high enough ratio.

My point is: share just the good stuff!
 
528Boldwin
      ID: 443322717
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 20:40
Besides the Tree diversions, show me one in the 500's that wasn't a sledgehammer.
 
529biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 20:43
That's my point. I wouldn't know. I just skim these days when I see the same person with 10 straight posts.
 
530Boldwin
      ID: 443322717
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 20:43
Make sure you watch the videos in #499. You won't mind the time spent after you do.
 
531Boldwin
      ID: 443322717
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 20:51
Maybe I abuse Dave Hall's site turning a couple threads into my own blog. No apologies for the quality of the posting whatsover. In a decade or two on the outside you are gonna wish you could reread these same threads cause what I warned you about came true. I don't think the uncensored internet survives that long however.
 
532Tree
      ID: 16312818
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 21:14
You have committment issues? Obviously society would rather those girls were non-religious inner city girls having sex as flippantly and frequently as cussing. They'd hand em condoms and pat them on the head to build their self-esteem in that case.

again - polygamy is illegal. polyamory isn't. what's your point?

again - this isn't about teen sex, but rather, adults having sex with teens. what's your point?

I wouldn't have minded if they proscuted that and set monitoring in place to prevent it in the future. In fact that is my recommendation.

praise allah, we agree on something.

Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant - Azar, official CPS apologist

The truth of that remains to be seen.


and what you're saying is the absolute truth? they're actually on site, and you, i don't believe, are.

Presently their ages are complete guesswork since the judge and the CPS thru out birth certificate evidence without even looking at it

link please.

bili You know you make some great points, but you gotta realize you have a bit of a tendency to go all Terry Schiavo on us, inundating us with over-the-top name calling and links with little beyond propaganda value.

the crazy thing is that earlier today i was thinking how much this reminded me of the TS thread with Baldwin's style of posting.
 
533Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 21:59
The truth is that all I care about is figuring out the essential truths. I find it. I archive it here. I don't need allies, readers, praise, your help getting there. I know that sounds cold but if I waited for you guys to get me there I'd never make it out of the garage.
 
534Tree
      ID: 16312818
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 22:24
The truth is that all I care about is figuring out the essential truths. I find it. I archive it here.

no offense, but this is a discussion board. there are plenty of other places you could use as an archive, but that's not the purpose of this place.

we're here because we do enjoy talking about current events, politics, and the like. it's not much fun when one person takes over a thread for his own (self-admitted) personal and selfish reasons that ultimately have nothing to do with the entire point of this place.
 
535Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 23:41
Who knows, Tree? Maybe the lightbulb will go on for some readers here eventually. Even you. It took me over a decade to wrap my mind around a lot of the stuff I am saying. The zeigeist/matrix is a prison for your mind and a sticky web not easy to free yourself from.
 
536Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 02:40
And how can it be said I took over a thread I started? I am not forcing you to visit this thread, Tree.
 
537Tree
      ID: 0342294
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 06:50
just because you start something doesn't make it "yours". oy.
 
538Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 12:16
Here is a pretty good rundown on the CPS's playing with the media and numbers.
Attorneys on the scene are warning that the numbers are extremely unreliable and that those interested in the case should remain cautious about believing these media reports. The tally of women and children has changed almost daily over the past three weeks. Amanda Chisholm, who works for TRLA, said she would be surprised if the actual number of teenage girls who are pregnant or mothers is "anywhere near that high."

Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar admitted that the age of the girls was determined by their attorneys or by looking at the women. "I have seen them myself," he said, "and I don't see any that look like an adult to me."

"My clients told us they were put in a line and looked at," said attorney Julie Balovich. "So I know that is how some of the numbers happened."

Azar also did not know how many girls were pregnant, but acknowledged that it is a small number. In earlier reports, CPS said that three teenagers are pregnant. Salt Lake attorney Rod Parker, a spokesman for the FLDS, said that of the three, one teenager refused to take a pregnancy test, one is 18 and the other is 17.

One problem in determining the ages of the girls is that some women may be claiming to be minors in order to stay with their children. TRLA attorney Julie Balovich said one woman now deemed to be a teenager is a 24-year-old woman who is pregnant. FLDS member Willie Jessop contends the state's tally also includes a 28-year-old whom the state has listed as being 17.

Another problem in these tallies is that the state is using a list which has been compiled of 20 minors and young women who conceived their first child between the ages of 13 and 16. The list includes women who had children ten or more years ago. For example, one woman was 13 when she conceived a child who was born in 1997! Another woman was 14 when she conceived a child born in 2000--eight years ago. Some of the women conceived children in other states, or before the change in Texas law regarding the age of consent. An interesting point to me would be how the age of pregnancy of the FLDS has changed over time, or since the arrest of Warren Jeffs. Is the sect attempting to comply with the laws of the state?

A final consideration for many is the number that was released regarding the teenaged boys in custody. The media is reporting that while there are 53 girls between those ages there are only 17 boys. I am wondering why they are not including the mentioning the 25 adolescent boys who were taken away from the main group very early in this raid and placed on a boys' ranch. Perhaps there are other boys who are away working and are not "lost." This is another example of half-truths intended to mislead the public.

I am really getting so annoyed with this media hype, playing on the concern of Americans for abused children. I prefer to look at this in the light of a wider world view. Throughout the world and over time and cultures, girls who begin menarche are considered women. They begin to marry and bear children. It has been in the past 100 years only that we have decided that young girls should have more choice and should put off childbearing until later. As a feminist, I believe this is a good thing. But who is to say that it is the only true and proper choice? Some studies have shown that childbearing at younger ages is healthier and more optimal for infant and mother. I believe in the right of this group to choose their family patterns and customs. Teaching their children to submit is not abuse, it is a different lifestyle choice. There are many tenets of this faith which are clearly healthier and more moral than mainstream teachings.

Ever since this case began, I have felt that persecution has been rampant. This is not the way to solve problems or difficulties within the religion. True believers will only cling to their faith more adamantly, seek to withdraw and hide from society and bear wounds from this forced separation for generations.This just adds weight to plenty of similar accounts I have read [and linked to here somtimes] showing the 'carnival guess' method of the CPS in detirmining ages. Surely this was a PR counteroffensive launched by the CPS and it was blatantly dishonest as almost anyone who has looked into the CPS has come to expect.

CPS: not so good at sweet. Sweet is foreign to them. Come to think of it they are clueless when it comes to looking at innocence as well.
 
539Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 12:17
Here is a pretty good rundown on the CPS's playing with the media and numbers.
Attorneys on the scene are warning that the numbers are extremely unreliable and that those interested in the case should remain cautious about believing these media reports. The tally of women and children has changed almost daily over the past three weeks. Amanda Chisholm, who works for TRLA, said she would be surprised if the actual number of teenage girls who are pregnant or mothers is "anywhere near that high."

Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar admitted that the age of the girls was determined by their attorneys or by looking at the women. "I have seen them myself," he said, "and I don't see any that look like an adult to me."

"My clients told us they were put in a line and looked at," said attorney Julie Balovich. "So I know that is how some of the numbers happened."

Azar also did not know how many girls were pregnant, but acknowledged that it is a small number. In earlier reports, CPS said that three teenagers are pregnant. Salt Lake attorney Rod Parker, a spokesman for the FLDS, said that of the three, one teenager refused to take a pregnancy test, one is 18 and the other is 17.

One problem in determining the ages of the girls is that some women may be claiming to be minors in order to stay with their children. TRLA attorney Julie Balovich said one woman now deemed to be a teenager is a 24-year-old woman who is pregnant. FLDS member Willie Jessop contends the state's tally also includes a 28-year-old whom the state has listed as being 17.

Another problem in these tallies is that the state is using a list which has been compiled of 20 minors and young women who conceived their first child between the ages of 13 and 16. The list includes women who had children ten or more years ago. For example, one woman was 13 when she conceived a child who was born in 1997! Another woman was 14 when she conceived a child born in 2000--eight years ago. Some of the women conceived children in other states, or before the change in Texas law regarding the age of consent. An interesting point to me would be how the age of pregnancy of the FLDS has changed over time, or since the arrest of Warren Jeffs. Is the sect attempting to comply with the laws of the state?

A final consideration for many is the number that was released regarding the teenaged boys in custody. The media is reporting that while there are 53 girls between those ages there are only 17 boys. I am wondering why they are not including the mentioning the 25 adolescent boys who were taken away from the main group very early in this raid and placed on a boys' ranch. Perhaps there are other boys who are away working and are not "lost." This is another example of half-truths intended to mislead the public.

I am really getting so annoyed with this media hype, playing on the concern of Americans for abused children. I prefer to look at this in the light of a wider world view. Throughout the world and over time and cultures, girls who begin menarche are considered women. They begin to marry and bear children. It has been in the past 100 years only that we have decided that young girls should have more choice and should put off childbearing until later. As a feminist, I believe this is a good thing. But who is to say that it is the only true and proper choice? Some studies have shown that childbearing at younger ages is healthier and more optimal for infant and mother. I believe in the right of this group to choose their family patterns and customs. Teaching their children to submit is not abuse, it is a different lifestyle choice. There are many tenets of this faith which are clearly healthier and more moral than mainstream teachings.

Ever since this case began, I have felt that persecution has been rampant. This is not the way to solve problems or difficulties within the religion. True believers will only cling to their faith more adamantly, seek to withdraw and hide from society and bear wounds from this forced separation for generations.
This just adds weight to plenty of similar accounts I have read [and linked to here somtimes] showing the 'carnival guess' method of the CPS in detirmining ages. Surely this was a PR counteroffensive launched by the CPS and it was blatantly dishonest as almost anyone who has looked into the CPS has come to expect.

CPS: not so good at sweet. Sweet is foreign to them. Come to think of it they are clueless when it comes to looking at innocence as well.
 
540Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 17:53
Update:

The Peruvian family living in Texas who had their kids including a 1 yr old taken away from them for the crime of breastfeeding linked to in post #44, did eventually get their kids back.
 
541Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 05:44
The media bias in the child seizure case has now been firmly established. Latest headlines to be splashed across the news: "31 of 53 teen girls at FLDS ranch has been pregnant."

This is classic misinformation, misleading with statistics and sensationalism. Consider this classic: "98% of wives have been raped, beaten, annoyed, abused, or murdered by their husbands". Yes, true, hum?

Let us examine the sensationalist claim about the pregnant teens. So 31 of 53 girls aged 14-17 have been pregnant? Proof of rampant child abuse, right? Hardly. What if all 31 of them were aged 17 and married? The article doesn't mention their exact ages, so there is no way to conclude anything at all. We are supposed to be so stupid as to assume they are all knocked up 14 year olds?

Let's consider the worst case scenario: some 14 and 15 year olds have had babies. Here is what the news is not wanting you to know: in Texas, it was legal for 14 year olds to marry up until 2005! So even if some 14 and 15 year olds had kids, it may have been perfectly legal at the time.

You think the government wouldn't be trying to mislead here? Fact: they are including in their statistics a woman who had her child in 1993.

But they figure all they have to do is splash a sensationalist headline every now and then, and the American people will buy into this hook, line, and sinker! Well guess what, the American people aren't that dumb, and we are paying attention.

Releasing such sickening and pathetic propaganda to attempt to cover up their own malfeasance is disgusting and wrong.

Attorney Rod Parker reveals some relevant details, such as the government failing to follow up on their pledge to allow breast-feeding mothers access to their own infants:
"They need to let those people out," Parker said. Parker also refuted CPS' description of an orderly, calm separation of mothers and children at the coliseum. He said it was "complete pandemonium."

As the children, all younger than 5, figured out what was happening, they started screaming and CPS workers had to pry many away from their mothers. "This is inhuman. This is un-American," said Parker, who also said a civil rights lawsuit is possible.
He also said CPS assured nursing mothers they would be able to take breast milk to their infants but, as of early Friday, had been given no information on where the children had been taken. They also were told sibling groups would be kept together. Thirteen children from one family were sent to five locations, he said.

The more I read about this situation, the sicker I get. The freedoms your neighbor loses are your freedoms too, America. Wake up! - Justin Halter
It will also be disgusting to watch the MSM give the CPS a pass for imprisoning adults in foster care on the basis of looks and the government discarding their documents. Logically you would expect a person with my perspective should be able to look forward to them getting a big black eye from this but we both know the media is evil.
 
542Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 05:52
Ok, I know the 'Polks' of rotoguru will go off on the 'media is evil' line. Let me be more precise. We both know the media will give the CPS a pass when they deserve a whacking and will give anyone in the FLDS a whacking when they deserve understanding [unless they are ingraciating themselves to get a personal interview. "How does it feel to have your children kidnapped and to be told you can never have children?" *feigned compassion*]

On second thot let's just stick with 'the media is evil'.
 
543Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 06:07
The first day of the 14 day hearing an attorney told the judge she had filed an application for writ of habeas corpus for a bunch of women. I don't recall how many. She said they were over 18 and had been disbelieved by CPS and so they were not able to attend the hearing. Shje had birth certificates, drivers licenses and social security cards to prove their age. The judge refused to take up the writ saying, "in this day of identity theft" do you really expect me to believe those documents? I was appalled. How does she expect them to prove their ages if not by government issued documents? - Comment of a Texan

[I don't offer this as authoritatively the last word on the subject but is the kind of thing I generally have encountered multiple times and just don't post]
 
544Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 06:14
The preceding and this post appear to be from the personal myspace of a court appointed attorney for the children.
The district clerk told me the other day that I could not get a copy of the orders that had been entered to date until they put up a "for-pay" website. I have never had to pay to get copies of the items that go into files in a court-appointed case. It is bad enough they asked us to take on these cases for free, travel all over the state, pay for hotels, etc, but to expect us to also pay for copies of the files and to file pleadings? It's ridiculous.

They are also talking about the Texas Lawyers for Children establishing a sort of clearinghouse for the children's attorneys to access and share information. They are also collecting donations, along with the State Bar Association and the Austin Bar Associations and others, to pay for our expenses. Still don't know how that will work.
 
545Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 11:17
The documents that they used to "prove" that there were underage brides was ten years old. The ranch hasn't been there 5 years.
 
546Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 11:21
The state "proved" there was immediate danger of "serious physical injury" by their psychiatrist testifying that the authoritarian environment caused brain stem damage resulting in the children being emotionally immature.

If that is valid science I'll eat my hat.
 
547Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 11:21
The state "proved" there was immediate danger of "serious physical injury" by their psychiatrist testifying that the authoritarian environment caused brain stem damage resulting in the children being emotionally immature.

If that is valid science I'll eat my hat.
 
548Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 11:43
i really do miss having the opportunity to discuss this case, but we've definitely been Schiavoed in this thread...

any chance you could compile your thoughts and condense them into a couple points - as bili said in post 529, you've made it impossible to discuss...

whether i'm right or wrong, or you're right or wrong, we could all probably learn something from this via a discussion, rather than post after post after post of the same person posting what they feel are the facts?

how about it baldy - let's turn this back into a discussion?
 
549Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 13:35
I am merely posting powerful new points or new angles to this story as I learn them. I will not withhold any.

This case, like the TS case, will forever change the laws and rights and freedoms in this country. It is not an ordinary subject or an ordinary legal case. If a subject as vitally important as this one does not merit your full attention then you can, so long as the free internet has not been lost, go back and catch up after you finally do realize just how severely your own rights have been diminished.
 
550Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 13:46
i'm not asking you to withhold anything. i was just asking that maybe you could condense your points, or condense your post count in this thread.

this case is obviously an important one, and it does merit one's full attention. sadly, you keep forgetting that this is a discussion board, and not an information dump.

i won't speak for anyone else, but other posts have hinted here that your endless post count in some threads - such as this one - make discussion neither possible, nor enjoyable.

just a bit of consideration for your other posters baldy. i wouldn't dare of asking you to censor anything - just, find a better way.
 
551Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 14:19
The spaces between each of my posts is already filled...filled with eloi apathy in the face of the Moorlock's gaping and feeding maw and Tree's disinformation efforts and not much else sadly.
 
552Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 15:39
Warren Jeffs gets life in prison. A real slimeball. Good work taking him down.
 
553sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 00:55
The State B, proved their case. There can be no claiming otherwise. This was not a case of over zealous CPS. Not even close, despite your best efforts to paint it as such. Like your position re TS, you and yours have been shown to be dead wrong...again.

When are you going to admit, perhaps your biased view of the world, is more than a little out of focus?
 
554bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 09:58
Child killed by fundamentalists
Baldwin, what should happen to the surviving eight children? Should they be placed in the hands of "compassion fascists" or not?
 
555Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 10:27
Those 'parents' deserve more than 14 and 22 years in prison. They committed murder. However, why are the kids in a foster home? Are there family members that can take them?

Are they in different foster homes, separated from each other? There's a number of pretty important questions not answered by this article.
 
556bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 14:32
Well I for one believe that the "compassion fascists" will do everything within their power to do what is best for the kids. I am not cynical enough to believe that they are out to enslave the kids, separate them, or politically indoctrinate them in any way. That may or may not mean adequate family members can be located, or that they would still be among the best options.
 
557Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 14:51
"to do what they think is best for the kids."

Fixed that for you. Unfortunately, what they think is not necessarily truly best for the kids. In this particular case they probably have a good handle on it and will provide a better place than the murde..err parents.

However, this leads to the heart of the problem. At what point is 'best for the kids' a matter of opinion or simply a difference in philosophy compared to actually needing help?

This is what worries me. There are numerous articles, many posted in this thread, about kids being taken from parents under the thinnest of pretenses.

This guy beat his kids with a pipe for hours upon hours. If the child had not died, would that give the state (morally, not legally) the right to walk in and take the kids? If so that means there is a line somewhere. But to me, that line had better be very clearly and definitively drawn. Its not.

If it doesn't give the state the right to step in and protect the kids, then what does?

 
558Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 15:10
What you aren't seeing in this thread are the thousands and thousands of good placements. Where kids were removed from dangerous homes and placed in foster and temporary care where people who genuinely care for their welfare take them in.

Unfortunately when you have a guy like Baldwin setting the discussion table for family services, one tends to have the impression that the best placements are accidents.
 
559DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 15:27
"But to me, that line had better be very clearly and definitively drawn. Its not."

Because, pretty clearly, you can't.

Well, I suppose you COULD -- in which case either

1. The line will be drawn at a place that is completely unhelpful to the kids (e.g. we'll only take them away if their skull is fractured in three or more places).

2. The line will be drawn at a place that is completely unfair to the parents (e.g. that milk was a day past its expiration date).

3. The line will be drawn at a place that is ridiculously open to human abuse from both directions.

Until we go to an infallible omnipotent robotic DCFS, humans are going to be involved, and they're probably going to screw some things up both in terms of overprotecting some kids and underprotecting others -- generally, because they're humans, not because they're evil anti-Christian communomarxist fascists out to take kids away from wonderful loving parents. (There may even be a minute number of cases where the social worker IS obviously an anti-Christian communomarxist fascist out to take the kids away from wonderful parents. That's not exactly a fault of the system though.)
 
560sarge33rd
      ID: 467321715
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 16:33
Not at all a fault of the system. Where IS the fault with the system? Lies with the American taxpayer. Cut services, cut MY taxes, cut, cut, cut...then; what do you mean you're understaffed and underfunded?

When a case worker, has 90+ cases; its just too damn many cases per social worker.
 
561Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 20:08
Abuse and charges against the parent.

Certainly unusual and possibly extreme. But abuse? If so, guess my mom is guilt of crime. I can remember w hen I was little and she'd wash my mouth out with soap or put pepper on my tongue for cursing. I was in kindergarten.

Where is the line? As Dwetzel said there isn't one that can be clearly drawn. Here is yet another example of a nanny state and an overstep of boundaries by our government.
 
562DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 21:10
And, interestingly, I think that case is pretty close to the point where the line can be drawn (and I'm not entirely sure which side it would fall on).

It's possibly reasonable to take that action as a parent (though I think it's pretty stupid in general and won't really accomplish anything except making the kid hate Mexican food day at school), and it's possibly reasonable to decide that squirting too much hot sauce in a 7 year old child's mouth is abuse because it doesn't accomplish anything other than teaching the kid to hate Mexican food.

That's probably too balanced a view though, I should say something about the fascists would be a lot more at home if they'd just switched places with the kid and went to Russia where they belong (help me out here, I'm not very good at these :P ).
 
563Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 06:14
Unfortunately when you have a guy like Baldwin setting the discussion table for family services, one tends to have the impression that the best placements are accidents. - PD

In any system that automatically accuses parents without proof and within minutes of breaking into their home blackmails them with the line, "Immediately admit to crimes no parent would ever admit to or you will never see your child again."...

...valid removals are complete and arbitrary accidents and outrages are the norm.
 
564Tree
      ID: 44721188
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 09:31
Fortunately, that's not the system in place in this country... Other than in your imagination.
 
565biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 09:38
But he gets these emails, see, and in these emails are all sorts of outrageous descriptions of true events happening to good Christians, see...

Boldy - honest question: what would you do to improve upon the hard, thankless job of removing kids from abusive and sometimes deadly home situations?
 
566Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 10:14
..valid removals are complete and arbitrary accidents and outrages are the norm.

Well, there you go. When you believe that over half of the 400,000 kids in foster care are there as a result of "outrage" then I believe that your outrage machine is set to "sensitive."

Do outrages occur? Absolutely. But sometimes looking at just the outrages makes you lose perspective.
 
567Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 13:11
bili

At a very minimum I would outlaw the practice of blackmailing parents into false confessions under the threat of never seeing their kids again if they don't.

I'd be interested to see what MBJ does with it when DCFS hands him that bogus confession.

My guess is that because he is prosecuting he is compelled by the judge and system to treat it as legit no matter how he feels about it, and thus forces the parents to impossibly defend themselves against their own coerced statement.

bili, there isn't anything you could do to save your own children in that typical situation. The only thing keeping you and your kids together is that some anonymous vindictive neighbor, co-worker, acquaintance or ex hasn't gotten around to placing one phone call.
 
568Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 13:13
bili

And since statistics show they are in FAR more danger in a foster setting I'd keep virtually all of them with their parents and sleep very well at night.
 
569bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 15:00
Hope that doesn't go for the Schatz family.
 
570Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 19:51
Funny thing is I listen to Air America 2.0 and the government advertises for foster parents every 15 minutes. Can't remember a one on the Rush Limbaugh show.
 
571DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 20:08
Most of his audience is still coming down off the Oxy probably.
 
572Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 21:04
This is in the little part of our two circles where Baldwin and I overlap.

Hundreds of New Yorkers who have been caught with small amounts of marijuana, or who have simply admitted to using it, have become ensnared in civil child neglect cases in recent years, though they did not face even the least of criminal charges, according to city records and defense lawyers. A small number of parents in these cases have even lost custody of their children.
 
573Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 22:11
Question for lawyer Zen. Imagine I was able to demonstratate to MBJ that in every case the DCFS confessions they produce in court were meaningless extorted lies.

What would the system let him do as a prosecutor? Could he chose not to enter it into evidence? Could he ask the parents under what circumstances those confessions were produced? How long before the DCFS managed to get him removed as a prosecutor in their cases?
 
574sarge33rd
      ID: 07201821
      Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 22:20
Question for B...Imagine I was able to demonstrate, that every single time Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, Bachmann, et al...made a statement; it was a bald faced lie.

Where would your political leanings go?

If I want to see hypotheticals, at least make those hypotheticals semi applicable to reality B.
 
575Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 08:07
Aren't most procesucters assigned by assigned by the elected prosecuter. So DCSF could ask for a reassignment, but would have minimal leverage to find get their hand picked friend assigned.
 
576Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 23:54
SZ will like this one:
Reporters should ask Mayor Michael Bloomberg whether his past drug use makes him unfit to be a parent or grandparent or to be in an occupation affecting the well-being of kids.
 
577sarge33rd
      ID: 8940711
      Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 02:35
2 yr old infant beaten into a coma

looks like TX CPS was a little slow here.
 
578Boldwin
      ID: 63552120
      Mon, Apr 21, 2014, 22:40
While under the supervision and care of DCFS...
 
579Boldwin
      ID: 49572022
      Sun, Aug 09, 2015, 11:11
Butt