Forum: pol
Page 3712
Subject: Fertilizer plant explosion Waco


  Posted by: nerveclinic - Leader [05047110] Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 20:00


And everyone is so focused on Boston. Not even discussing the fertilizer plant explosion in Waco Texas. April 19th, exactly 20 years after the Federal raid on the Branch Davidian's.

"Newly appointed U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno approved recommendations by the FBI to mount an assault after being told that conditions were deteriorating and that children were being abused inside the compound.[53] Reno made the FBI's case to President Bill Clinton"

Because the Branch Davidians were heavily armed, the FBI's arms included .50 caliber (12.7 mm) rifles and armored CEVs. The assault took place on April 19, 1993.

Only nine people left the building during the fire.[22][66] The remaining Branch Davidians, including the children, were either buried alive by rubble, suffocated by the effects of the fire, or shot. Many who suffocated from the fire were killed by smoke or carbon monoxide inhalation and other causes as fire engulfed the building

Is it a coincidence this explosion took place on the same day?

I'll let you decide...





 
1DWetzel
      ID: 59149910
      Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 20:03
The plant explosion was on the 17th. So yeah, I'm going to go with made up Twittertard conspiracy theory that doesn't even meet Level 0 basic factchecking.
 
2nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 20:15

Come on Wet Boy, within 2 days, is that not close enough?

Let's see if there's not more to come on this just wait and see.

I don't know a thing, just guessing.


 
3nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 20:38

And Wetz, you call it "twittertard" conspiracy (you must have children?) Yet even Reuters news is questioning if there is more to the story and the chief of police said it is being treated as a crime scene until more is known.

 
4sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 20:49
Treating it as a crime scene, in light of the Boston bombing, would only be prudent.
 
5DWetzel
      ID: 59149910
      Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 20:56
First of all, leave my family out of this thanks.

Now that we have this out of the way, let's go over the course of this conversation.

1. You say it's a probable conspiracy based largely on it being on the 10th anniversary. That's like a major linchpin of your theory.
2. It's, factually speaking, not on the 10th anniversary at all.
3a. A sensible person says "Oh, I got my facts wrong."
3b. A person who's really into weird conspiracies says "well, it must be a conspiracy anyway, I mean, isn't it close enough?" The answer to that is no, it's not close enough, because you're just wrong. It's really not worth dignifying on that basis.

Now, if it's an actual crime with actual evidence, that might be something. But it's not. So don't pretend it is until it is. That they're "treating it as a crime scene" means precisely jack squat and you (should) know it.

But while we're at it, because it's fun, let's make other date-based silly speculations, because it's fun.

DID YOU KNOW the plant explosion happened on the exact 159th anniversary of the Bread Revolt in Savannah, Georgia? Therefore, this explosion must be a terrorist attempt by Confederate sumpathizers!

DID YOU KNOW it's also the 67th anniversary of Syria declaring independence from French rule? Maybe it was Syria-based Muslim terrorists!

DID YOU KNOW it's also the 20th anniversary of the Rodney King beating (and subsequent riots)? Do we know the whereabouts of the LA police officers implicated in that event? How about the Black Panthers, could have been them stirring stuff up? Especially suspicious since Rodney King died in the last year, don't you think?

Personally, I think it's remarkable that the plant, full of volatile and dangerous substances on a constant basis mind you, blew up when on the 60th anniversary of Mickey Mantle's 565 foot home run against the Washington Senators. The government is probably covering up the fact that the ball actually just landed in the area. Do you know where the Washington Senators moved to? That's right, TEXAS.
 
6DWetzel
      ID: 59149910
      Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 20:58
Sorry, it's the 21st anniversary of Rodney King. You can scratch that one off the list.

(See how that works?)
 
7Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 21:13
Tree already started a thread about this.

For the record, the plant is in West, TX, which is 15 or 20 miles from Waco.

You may recall that there was another rather famous disaster in the Southwestern US that occurred on April 19th, exactly 2 years after Waco. And that explosion just happened to employ fertilizer.

I'm someone far less given to linking these types of events than Nerveclinic but this week's event in West is uncomfortably similar to The Murrah Building explosion in 1995, in my opinion moreso than the Branch Davidian siege.

Of course McVeigh's motive in the OKC bombing was Waco, so a secondary connection would there too.

I do understand an OKC connection would be considerably less sexy to the conspiro-theoro-sphere (I'll have to remember to register that) since it would suggest a criminal or possibly terrorist act rather than much juicier (for that set) than government malfeasance but the fertilizer thing is what I find more gripping than the closer proximity and round-number anniversary.

All that said I think an accident is most plausible. Coincidences might seem unlikely but in life they do in fact happen and at this point there's not any real evidence I know of that says this isn't one.

I believe it's being investigated as a criminal act, as it should.
 
8Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 21:14
LOL @ #5.
 
9DWetzel
      ID: 59149910
      Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 21:30
I mean, I obviously came off way too snarkily there, but I mean, it's a fertilizer plant. Fertilizer is a dangerous, combustible substance, and this kind of stuff happens quite frequently. So, while it's tragic, I think it's a tremendous leap of the mind trying to assign order to chaos.
 
10Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Sat, Apr 20, 2013, 21:44
i started a thread on this. it was WEST, not WACO.

and the disaster in West happened 66 years and 1 day after the disaster in Texas City.

look it up. i'm sure it's a conspiracy. :: eye roll ::
 
11Nerveclinic
      ID: 52134819
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 02:17


Wetz number 5 is not snarky it's not sensical. You are listing events that have no connection to that region of Texas.

My point was close to the date of Waco which is right down the road from where this happened, involving fertilizer which was used in another intentional explosion that was targeted at the date of Waco.

If a reasonable person can't connect those dots and at least be curious then what planet do you live on?

The random events you named have no connections like the point I was making do so they were not analogous, made no sense and were not in the least bit funny. It's like you held up an apple and said "see Nerve it doesn't look at all like your orange". But I would expect no less from a person who uses words like twittertard.





 
12Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 07:11
I dont completely dismiss the idea out of hand. Crazies who send poison letters in the mail to media and government officials have now twice in the past 12 years waited until a major attack to use their mailings to spread further fear through the country.

So while i dont think its the most likely possibility, the fertilizer plant certainly could have been a deliberate act by someone who recognized that the marathon attack was the same week as Waco and OKC.

I talked about this early in the week with my boss, who is from OK and worked for a local news affiliate in OKC in 1995.

On Monday evening as we were wondering about who planted the likely bombs he noted that it was the same week 18 and 20 years after the Murrah building and the BD siege.

But we also acknowledged that it was Patriot Day and tax day, too and even Jackie Robinson Day and that someone crazy enough to plant a bomb at the Boston Marathon in the first place is crazy enough to do it for any crazy reason.

So until more info comes out, if any ever does, speculating through a fine comb is a little silly.
 
13Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 07:47

None of us knows but the coincidences are at least worth a mention.

Yes it's not "in" Waco but I constantly hear on the news they are saying "West Texas, near Waco" Waco is constantly being mentioned so it's not such a leap. Hey maybe it's nothing but it is at least worth a raised eyebrow to anyone with a slightly open mind.

 
14Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 09:28
James Moore column that Tree posted in the other plant fire thread.
what happened in West is probably more about government inactions.

The Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TCEQ) acknowledged today that it only inspects plants like West Fertilizer on the basis of complaints. The most basic interpretation of that statement is that a mechanical issue has to be failing so badly that someone outside of the facility is able to notice and then file a complaint to the state agency. A worried employee providing information would be the only other cause to investigate. According to TCEQ records, the plant has not been inspected since 2006 after a nearby resident complained of a "strong ammonia smell." A fine was issued for a "failure to apply for or obtain a permit."

The EPA fined the plant that same year, too. According to WFAA-TV in Dallas, the facility paid a $2,300 penalty for "failing to have a risk management plan that met federal standards." This is nothing more than a basic outline to ensure that chemical accidents don't happen and there are institutional safeguards that make these types of tragedies preventable.

Why the obvious, even more attendant risks were ignored in West, is a more unsettling question. The state issues the permits for nursing homes and it appears there was one virtually across the street from West Fertilizer, in spite of the known dangers of the manufacture of ammonium nitrate. Not far away, a building permit was granted for a small, two story apartment complex. Is this good judgment by state and federal, and even local agencies? It's not like ammonium nitrate fertilizer hasn't been known to detonate in the past. The 1947 explosion in Texas City of a ship carrying the compound killed 500 people and remains the largest industrial disaster in American history.


Reuters
The fertilizer plant that exploded on Wednesday, obliterating part of a small Texas town and killing at least 14 people, had last year been storing 1,350 times the amount of ammonium nitrate that would normally trigger safety oversight by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS).

Yet a person familiar with DHS operations said the company that owns the plant, West Fertilizer, did not tell the agency about the potentially explosive fertilizer as it is required to do, leaving one of the principal regulators of ammonium nitrate - which can also be used in bomb making - unaware of any danger there.

Fertilizer plants and depots must report to the DHS when they hold 400 lb (180 kg) or more of the substance. Filings this year with the Texas Department of State Health Services, which weren't shared with DHS, show the plant had 270 tons of it on hand last year.


"It seems this manufacturer was willfully off the grid," Rep. Bennie Thompson, (D-MS), ranking member of the House Committee on Homeland Security, said in a statement. "This facility was known to have chemicals well above the threshold amount to be regulated under the Chemical Facility Anti-Terrorism Standards Act (CFATS), yet we understand that DHS did not even know the plant existed until it blew up."


Firms are responsible for self reporting the volumes of ammonium nitrate and other volatile chemicals they hold to the DHS, which then helps measure plant risks and devise security and safety plans based on them.

Since the agency never received any so-called top-screen report from West Fertilizer, the facility was not regulated or monitored by the DHS under its CFAT standards, largely designed to prevent sabotage of sites and to keep chemicals from falling into criminal hands.


In its RMP filings, West Fertilizer reported on its storage of anhydrous ammonia and said that it did not expect a fire or explosion to affect the facility, even in a worst-case scenario. And it had not installed safeguards such as blast walls around the plant.

A separate EPA program, known as Tier II, requires reporting of ammonium nitrate and other hazardous chemicals stored above certain quantities. Tier II reports are submitted to local fire departments and emergency planning and response groups to help them plan for and respond to chemical disasters. In Texas, the reports are collected by the Department of State Health Services. Over the last seven years, according to reports West Fertilizer filed, 2012 was the only time the company stored ammonium nitrate at the facility.

It reported having 270 tons on site.

"That's just a god awful amount of ammonium nitrate," said Bryan Haywood, the owner of a hazardous chemical consulting firm in Milford, Ohio. "If they were doing that, I would hope they would have gotten outside help."

In response to a request from Reuters, Haywood, who has been a safety engineer for 17 years, reviewed West Fertilizer's Tier II sheets from the last six years. He said he found several items that should have triggered the attention of local emergency planning authorities - most notably the sudden appearance of a large amount of ammonium nitrate in 2012.

"As a former HAZMAT coordinator, that would have been a red flag for me," said Haywood, referring to hazardous materials.




Don't tread on me.
 
15Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 09:31
They died for freedom.
 
16Boldwin
      ID: 263272017
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 11:12
Quite a cluster of coincidences there, Nerve. You got anything on their numerology I'd appreciate if you e-mailed me or post it in full. I always miss that particular angle.
 
17DWetzel
      ID: 59149910
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 12:27
"If a reasonable person can't connect those dots and at least be curious then what planet do you live on?"

A planet that understands that fertilizer plants are dangerous business and that accidents frequently happen.

There's also a gap between "being curious" and the original post, which attempts quite clearly to draw a direct link between the events, in a way that directly contradicted the facts of the situation.
 
18sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 12:31
All of these events, occurred on days that end in "y". I'll bet, it's an ancient conspiracy rooted in our transition to the Julian calendar.
 
19DWetzel
      ID: 59149910
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 12:40
"Wetz number 5 is not snarky it's not sensical. You are listing events that have no connection to that region of Texas."

Another feature of conspiracy theorists: make the "region" exactly large enough to include whatever event you want to link it to.

Obviously it was tongue in cheek, but it's less than 90 minutes fro the home of the Texas Rangers (the former Washington Senators). That ought to be close enough.

If you want to mention coincidences, fine. But when you go anywhere beyond "huh, that's weird" and drawing a huge link between two events (which is unquestionably what you did in the OP) are two completely different things. One of them is normal. One of them isn't.
 
20Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 13:48
Youtube of a 1997 news package on the 50th anniversary of the Texas City disaster. Absolutely worth the 3:29 investment.


"...but as a chemist, there was something about that orange-colored smoke that worried Will Lane."
 
21Khahan
      ID: 16341313
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 16:36
Nerve - #13

I think its more likely they mention Waco because
A) people know where Waco is but they don't know where West, Tx is

and

B) The town name is West, but when you hear, "an explosion in west texas, it sounds like the explosion happened in the west of Texas so Waco is giving a more precise location.


If Galvaston had been the nearest city, they'd probably be saying, West, Tx near Galvaston.


 
22Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 17:07
I think that's right. Waco is only a few miles away, and is the largest town around.
 
23Tree
      ID: 2510132311
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 17:15
People in Texas know West is a town, and I don't know a single person who thought it was a region. When something happens in Boston they don't say East Massachusetts. When something happens in Los Angeles they don't say "west California" unless they are specifically referring to southern California, which is a well known regional description.

West is a town, but because it's also a direction, those who don't know can be confused. Waco is the nearest large city, home to Baylor University. The s nothing to do with Koresh here.

If you want to review conspiracy, there is, IMHO, something that stinks at some level of government in regards to the oversight from my previously, and MITH's reposting here.
 
24Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 19:32
When I was told of the news over the phone, I assumed my coworker non-specifically meant western Texas and I refrained from pressing him for a town name.

A few minutes later when I checked my email I immediately knew from the capital W and punctuation that he was specific and that West was the name of the town.

As far as I know, Nerveclinic is not from Texas. Easy mistake to make.
 
25sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 22:43
Indeed. When I first heard it, I too thought west Texas and not West, Texas. Texas is in fact referred to in geographic sections. Hell, the state spans 2 or 3 time zones.
 
26biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 23:24
My family is from west Texas (not West, Texas), and we refer to it as such. Given our home ranch is 2 hours from even the smallest town, that's the best descriptor.


 
27nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 01:08

Now this guy is just crazy...

Crazy Guy

 
28Boldwin
      ID: 453232117
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 02:49
Waco, supposedly the day before.
 
29Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 07:36
27 - No, he's an idiot.



28 - a. Assuming those really are identifiable FEMA trucks and that the video really was shot in WACO and also assuming it was shot on the day the shooter claims, in how many cities across the US is there a WACO truck right now? b. What conspiro-theoro-fetish-friendly purpose would FEMA possibly have for being there on that day? If it was for some nefarious purpose involving the destruction of a fertilizer plant 15 miles away, do you really think they would send trucks that are identifiably marked? There's a Dan Akroyd movie from 30 years ago in which the government knew to hide it's secret facilities by marking it's trucks to make it look like it was carrying tomatoes.

FEMA can stage an event like this, eluding the public and the media - but isn't quite as smart as a 1980s Dan Aykroyd movie?
 
30Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 08:36
It will be interesting to see where the finger pointing stops, but the fact that a fertilizer plant had a very large amount ofammonium nitrate isn't surprising. I can think of 3-4 locations within 20 minutes of where I grew up that have many multiples of the amount required for Federal Oversight. I'm curious to talk to a cousin who is a manager for county co-op (which sells seeds and fertilizer to famers) if they were filing with the federal government before, or if there is an increased push for filing after West.

In my opinion the amount of ammonium nitrate present at West isn't some insane amount, or probably willfully being hidden by management of the plant. Ammonium nitrate is a very common substance in fertilizers and large amounts are used. To get an idea why I think this, below is a question from an ag extension office for calculating which fertilizer to use.

Example 2: Your dry land pasture has been soil tested and the recommendation from the testing lab is to add 40 pounds of nitrogen per acre. You would like to do this as cheaply as possible. You have access to two (2) different fertilizers:

Ammonium Sulfate 16-20-0-15 cost = $12.00 per 100 pounds

Ammonium Nitrate 28-14-0 cost = $17.50 per 100 pounds

Which is cheaper to use?

Ammonium Sulfate: 40 pounds nitrogen required divided by 16 pounds of nitrogen per 100-pound bag = 2.5 bags per acre or 250 pounds of Ammonium Sulfate per acre. 2.5 bags at $12.00 per bag = $30 per acre

Ammonium Nitrate: 40 pounds of nitrogen required divided by 28 pounds of nitrogen per 100 pound bag = 1.4 bags per acre or 140 pounds per acre. 1.4 bags at $17.50 per bag = $24.50 per acre



Ammonium nitrate is used in many fertilizers and is also used in mining applications as an explosive. Ammonium nitrate is used as a mining explosive due to the increased difficulty of making it explode.
 
31Boldwin
      ID: 213232214
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 15:26
MITH

There are more MITHs than Nerves and Boldwins. A lot.
 
32Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 17:53
I'm not sure in what way you are equating yourself to Nerveclinic but the Alex Jones/Glenn Beck crowd are nothing but another kind of sheep - of a much simpler type than they reserve the term for.
 
33Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 09:05
23 - I was talking to my wife last night who grew up in Saledo and Austin Texas. When I asked her about the explosion in West, Tx she asked where in west Texas and has no clue it was a town. And that's only about an hour away.

 
38Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 10:21
OMG!OMG!OMG!

 
40Tree
      ID: 47311239
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 11:06
I was talking to my wife last night who grew up in Saledo and Austin Texa

i'm wondering if it's an north Texas thing. if you're going South to Austin or San Antonio from points north of Hillsboro - Fort Worth, Dallas, Arlington, Wichita Falls, Oklahoma City, and so forth, you will almost certainly pass through - and stop - in West. it just seems odd to me that folks wouldn't.
 
41C1-NRB
      ID: 451120913
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 13:30
I currently live in West Texas and have stopped in West, Texas in the past when I lived in Central Texas on my way to North Texas, which is located Southeast of the Panhandle. (The Panhandle being due north of my current home in West Texas. But more of the Panhandle is finding it's way into West Texas this April, with all the wind and dust storms we've been having.)

What's on second. I don't know- Third Base!

Re: Khahan 33- For what it's worth, I don't know how fast your wife's family drives but the minimum time it would take to get from Salado to West would be more like just over two hours.
 
42Nerveclinic
      ID: 52134819
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 16:29


If I had to name one person on the forum I had the least in common with, certainly the first name that would come to mind is Baldwin, short of a mutual distrust of blind faith to the official line. Even then it's often for different reasons.

I also know nothing about Alex Jones, and Glenn Beck is a complete idiot, so please be careful who you place me in bed with.

I learned a long time ago how to see with my own eyes, I don't need to follow anyone.





 
43Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 17:23
Nerveclinic

The first part of #32 (before the word 'but') was to distinguish you from B. The second part was to address Boldwin.

I do not associate you with Jones in any specific way or with Beck at all.
 
44Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 12:13
A West, TX EMT who was one of the first responders on the scene at the fertilizer plant explosion has been arrested and charged with possession of a destructive device.
Bryce Reed, 31, was arrested around 2 a.m. and was booked into McLennan County Jail. The U.S. Marshals have since taken him into custody.

Officials haven’t said whether the arrest was related to the April 17 explosion at West Fertilizer Co. that killed 15, injured about 200 and destroyed hundreds of homes.
 
45Tree
      ID: 22431109
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 12:59
my takeaway from that article was “The Bryce Reed that I know is a great guy. He would do anything for anybody. I would trust him with my life,” said Atkins, who has known Reed since November.

so..he's known the dude less than 6 months...wow. that's trust.
 
46Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 13:01
That's most likely an emergency responder culture thing.
 
47Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 13:02
And Amanda Atkins is probably a she.