Forum: pol
Page 3718
Subject: News From And Of The Conspiro-Theoro-Sphere


  Posted by: Mith - [4310402110] Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 12:12

A sorting house for goofie birther documents, cockamamie false flag operations, nonsensical DHS ammunition hoarding reports, hilarious crisis actor evidence, Bigfoot, UFO and Nessie sightings and all that good stuff, along with information and articles about those lovable purveyors of tinfoil.

From the National Review: The Gospel of Alex Jones
 
1Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 13:52
Super-awesome NSFW language goodness.
 
2nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 16:01
Your whole premise is conceptually inaccurate.

You are lumping together for example Bigfoot and "nonsensical DHS ammunition hoarding".

There is no question that DHS is buying unprecedented amounts of Ammo. That is a fact. Janet Napolitano testified as much in front of a congressional committee two weeks ago, so what is non sensical? She just explained they were doing it to get a good deal by buying in quantity. Maybe you didn't read her testimony if you label it "nonsensical"

Alex Jones? He might actually be CIA. I had never even heard of Alex Jones until 2 weeks ago when all this happened, except when he debated Piers Morgan on CNN about gun control. I watched that debate, and I am in line with Alex Jones position, but I thought this guy can't be real, he looks like a plant to make gun owners look like kooks. He behaved like a lunatic who couldn't have a civil debate. I don't trust him.

National Review? their biggest former star? William F. Buckley, Skull and Bones Yale Alum.

A lot of stuff is thrown out there that is garbage, as a smoke screen, to make people who simply are noticing significant, obvious anomalies between factual evidence and what our government tells us is the truth, look like idiots, or red necks, or right wing reactionaries.

Then smart guys like MITH can have a good laugh, and look real smart as he slaps his buddies on the back and chuckles about tin foil hats. No offense, just how I feel.

Just because there are absurd conspiracy claims, doesn't make the whole concept irrational.

It's obvious, that SOMETHING is happening in America. Anyone with half a brain can at least see "something" is not right.

The group doing this has the best resources, cash, and power of any group on the planet. Of course they are able to throw up smoke screens to make the average conspiracy amateurs look like idiots. And you are unwittingly helping them.

Here is where I stand.

Keep me out of the club that blames everything on Aliens, or the group who thinks Michele Obama visited Osama Bin Laden's son in the hospital after he blew up people at the Boston Marathon. I don't even believe in the resurrection.

OK?

Now I will tell you what club I am in.

I am someone who is simply worried that we are losing the freedom that made our country great, and I don't mean that in some coded right wing term.

You saw that erosion of freedom in the police behavior in Boston during the door to door searches of innocent peoples homes. You saw it after 9/11 with the passing of the patriot act.

You see the people's comments in the post where I showed the video of cops going door to door telling innocent people roughly to get out of their house and put their hands on their heads? And you see the sheep who posted in the thread and said while wringing their hands, let them do whatever they want, they have to protect us, I am scared.

So MITH put me in the camp that was disgusted by the police behavior.

Forget the crazy premises. The people who say the bombing was fake, they were all staged actors. Just because someone says that doesn't mean we all believe it.

But what is just as crazy that we DO know???

On (I think it was) Tuesday after the bombing, the government announced they had caught the bomber, he was in their custody, they were about to arraign him at the courthouse and they would hold a press conference at 5PM.

Those are all facts, no tin foil.

Then something must have gone terribly wrong, a few hours before 5PM they said clear the court house, there is a bomb threat, and by the way we don't have the suspect, no arraignment, and the 5PM press conference Is canceled. Well get back to you.

WTF?

I know all this because I watched it live on the news. Now we have forgotten all that?

No tin foil MITH, just no logical explanation. Just basic, logical observation.

What else do I know? that the police got in a shoot out with the second suspect who they say fired a gun at them from the boat. They put round after round into the boat. They told us he intentionally shot himself in the mouth, Then told us later he was unarmed. Those are facts.

WTF?

There's a long list of other "anomalies" that are being ignored now, I don't want to go over it again here, you get the point, and jokesters like you can just have a laugh at those of us who have simple powers of observation that apparently others are lacking, because there are some wackos out there, maybe even "intentionally" distorting the position of people who think simply that "something" is up.

No aliens, no big foot, but your losing your freedom Joe. If you want to make a big joke about it that's your right, but that's my two cents.

Honestly I don't know why I bother sometimes.

Jokes on you brah.

Shits hitting the fan, if you don't see what's happening then just have your laugh.




 
3Boldwin
      ID: 193383016
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 17:38
Do you know why there are Bigfoot, UFO and Nessie' coverage inserted in the alternate media?

They are so desperate that people don't learn the truth that they try to bury it in crap.

 
4Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 19:33
Nerveclinic

I'm not associating you with the UFO crowd Brah, you're doing it yourself.

"nonsensical DHS ammunition hoarding".

There is no question that DHS is buying unprecedented amounts of Ammo. That is a fact. Janet Napolitano testified as much in front of a congressional committee two weeks ago, so what is non sensical?


Show me the testimony please. Here's what I found:
Written testimony of DHS Directorate of Management Office of the Chief Procurement Officer, Chief Procurement Officer Nick Nayak, and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement National Firearms and Tactical Training Unit Assistant Director Humberto Medina for a House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Subcommittees on Economic Growth, Job Creation, and Regulatory Affairs, and National Security hearing titled “Oversight of the Federal Government’s Procurement of Ammunition”
The quantity of ammunition that DHS has procured has largely remained constant relative to the Department’s employee base since fiscal fear (FY) 2006.2 On average, over the last three fiscal years, DHS procured approximately 120 million rounds of ammunition per year of all calibers and types and fired approximately the same number of rounds per year, almost exclusively for training purposes. In FY 2012, for example, DHS estimates that it procured just over 100 million rounds3 and we anticipate the purchase and use of ammunition in the current fiscal year to be similar to previous years.4 Based on the President’s budget request for FY 2013, submitted to Congress in February 2012, Components identified approximately $37 million spread across different accounts that was budgeted for ammunition in FY 2013.5 Furthermore, during the first two quarters of FY 2013 DHS purchased just under 41 million rounds of ammunition.6 However, due to current resource constraints, efforts have been made to reduce spending on supplies, including ammunition if it will not have a deleterious effect on officer safety and proficiency.

The Department has experienced only minor fluctuations in its buying patterns for ammunition since its inception. These fluctuations have been driven by the size of the employee base using ammunition in the performance of their jobs and associated training. For example, the Border Patrol has doubled in size over the last ten years, which has required a commensurate increase in the amount of ammunition required for their training, qualification, and operations.7 The Department’s ammunition purchases peaked in FY 2010, and have since declined in each successive fiscal year.8 Due to the fact that manufacturers can take six months to a year to deliver ammunition, DHS has a supply of ammunition on hand at a given time in order to manage training, operational posture needs, and delivery times from the manufacturers. As of April 15, 2013, this amounted to DHS having approximately 246,451,611 rounds in inventory.9
Not as sexy as tin foil I know but there you go. Brah.
 
5Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 19:37
Factcheck.org
Bullet Baloney

The email cites a “drastic spike” in the Department of Homeland Security’s bullet purchases and asks: “What is the US federal government preparing for?” The email also claims that “federal management agencies are looking more and more like a military army every day.”

DHS has indeed ordered hundreds of millions of rounds of ammunition. But there is less here than meets the eye. And that’s according to the National Rifle Association and the office of Republican Congressman Lynn Westmoreland of Georgia.

The Department of Homeland Security recently contracted to buy up to 450 million rounds over the next five years. But DHS was making a first-time bulk order for all of its law enforcement agencies to save money. Those agencies include the Secret Service, the Transportation Security Administration and U.S. Customs and Border Enforcement, among many others.

The NRA describes the assertion as “incendiary.” It says the suggestion that the Obama administration is “preparing for a war with the American people” displays “a lack of understanding of the law enforcement functions carried about by officers in small federal agencies.” The NRA, which is no fan of the Democratic president, concludes that “there is no need to invent additional threats to our rights.”
 
6Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 20:02
You see the people's comments in the post where I showed the video of cops going door to door telling innocent people roughly to get out of their house and put their hands on their heads?

Nerveclinic, I've offered a bit - possibly more than you - on the militarization of America's police. You don't have to believe in a conspiracy to see it for yourself. We all see it happening, where DHS money is pumped into local police resulting in podunk precincts with heavy armaments and SWAT equipment that most people can't imagine them having a need for. And since they have to use the stuff to justify it, we see these pdunk cops blast into the homes of suspected low-level drug dealers and other small potatoes.

But some of this other stuff is really lazy on your part, most of it confusing bad reporting with actual official statements.

On the Wednesday after bombing, the government most certainly did not announce they had caught the bomber, or that he was in their custody, or that they were about to arraign him. I work in a newsroom. That is the kind of thing that gets announced at a press conference, or at least in a press release. There was no press conference, no press release. Media outlets were citing unconfirmed reports from anonymous sources that were "close to" officials. Eventually outlets were reporting what other outlets were reporting based on unconfirmed reports from anonymous sources.

I even mentioned this in the Boston Bombing thread as it was happening.

In post 66, I wrote: Every news outlet is currently breaking different information regarding whether or not a suspect is in custody.

And the - quite presciently - I wrote in post 70: One of the most frustrating things about these hectic breaking news environments is that every time the media gets something wrong, the conspiro-theorists pounce on it as evidence of a coverup or inside job or, their latest buzzword, a false flag operation.

Just as prescient was my post #22 two days earlier from the day of the bombings: I also saw a NYP report that the JFK Library explosion was linked to the marathon bombs but the law enforcement news conference specifically wouldnt confirm that and CNN is reporting that it was actually related to a fire.

This type of media confusion and impatience during major breaking news tragedies is what leads conspiracy theorists to flood facebook with claims that events this are government hoaxes.


The fact that two weeks later you are still suckered by that bad reporting is incredibly lazy or embarrassingly ignorant on your part, Nerveclinic. No, those aren't facts, Brah.


If the tin foil fits...
 
7Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 20:25
And for the record Alex Jones is not some new guy in the conspiro-theoro-sphere. He through his outlets, Prison Planet and Info Wars, is it's most prominent figure for probably a decade.

He increased his prominence when Glenn Beck began stealing Jones' material for his nightly show on FOX and a hilarious public battle of nutballs ensued. The election of Barack Obama and all of the absurd rumors pushed about him furthered the public interest in conspiracy theories exponentially.

And even though Jones didn't sign on to the birther/secret islamist terrorist/Odinga theories, he was clearly a beneficiary of the heightened interest, since many conspiro-theoro-roads lead in his direction.
 
8Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 08:46
Alex Jones being embraced by right wingers is hilarious. After 9/11, Jones was a pariah to those who felt questioning the official 9/11 story was tantamount to treason. So many of the same people who were aghast that there was government involvement on some level during the Bush administration, are now aghast that the mainstream media isn't raking Obama over the coals for an incident that pales in comparison the 9/11.

Jones has become the MSM of conspiracy media. The problem is that not everything is a conspiracy, so, as Nerve points out,

A lot of stuff is thrown out there that is garbage.

That's the result of having to put something out on a daily basis. While Alex Jones is the face and voice of Prison Planet and Infowars, the real talent is Paul Joseph Watson, , who is more investigative journalist than snake-oil saleman.
 
9Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 10:58
I don't know PV, this Joseph Watson fellow looks like he's selling some of the same snake oil, even if he might be a little more careful with his phrasing. Look at how he handles the DHS ammo story
Writing on her official Facebook page, Palin remarked, “If we are going to wet our proverbial pants over 0.3% in annual spending cuts when we’re running up trillion dollar annual deficits, then we’re done. Put a fork in us. We’re finished. We’re going to default eventually and that’s why the feds are stockpiling bullets in case of civil unrest.”


Politico published an article following Palin’s Facebook post bizarrely claiming that her concerns about the federal government purchasing ammo in large quantities had been debunked despite admitting that “government agencies are, in fact, purchasing large amounts of ammunition.” This tactic of admitting that the government is purchasing a huge number of bullets while simultaneously portraying anyone concerned about the fact as erroneous and paranoid has been adopted by other mainstream media outlets like the Washington Post, who have blithely accepted and regurgitated the government’s explanation that the bullets are merely for target practice.
See the slight of hand? Palin says the feds are stockpiling bullets, which Politico did indeed challenge, writing:
The feds say Sarah Palin is firing blanks with her claim that the government is “stockpiling bullets” for potential civil unrest in case the country defaults on its loans.

While government agencies are, in fact, purchasing large amounts of ammunition, they are doing so for training exercises and shooting ranges, according to federal officials.
But Watson then changed the issue from one about stockpiling (for the wholly unsubstantiated purpose of dealing with civil unrest, no less) to something about hoarding ammo so that he can get away with calling the Politico article "bizarre" for claiming to have debunked Palin, "despite admitting that “government agencies are, in fact, purchasing large amounts of ammunition.”".

Watson didn't even attempt to address the widely reported explanation that the DHS purchase was "a first-time bulk order for all of its law enforcement agencies to save money" which would cover several years worth of purchases and that overall the budget for ammunition as a ratio of total personnel is actually down.

I don't doubt that Watson also has done some good work, just as Jones and Beck have and as Boldwin has here as well from time to time. SO I don't have a problem regarding him as a talent, as you say. But he still falls short in the standards department in my opinion.
 
10Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 12:44
To help people who are confused about the difference between official statements and media reports, I'll use some news that just came across in the past hour.

The Boston Globe is currently reporting that three college students have been arrested by federal authorities in connection with the bombings for assisting Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the days after the attacks took place.

Other news outlets are offering other details, including what they are allegedly going to be charged with and what they allegedly did.

But none of this information comes to you and I from any law enforcement officials. It comes from anonymous sources which these outlets have cited. In the Globe’s case, “a law enforcement official familiar with the case”.

So we aren’t just asked to trust a law enforcement official here. We’re asked to trust the Globe’s account of what an anonymous official told one of their reporters privately - and that means trusting that reporter's judgement of what the official said, whether his account was confirmed or just an educated guess or a hypothetical, and the Globe's trust in that reporter.

So that we are clear, as of this writing, the government has most certainly not announced (to use Nerveclinic's parlance in post #2) that three college students have been arrested by federal authorities in connection with the bombings. Several media outlets have announced that. Understand the difference?
 
11Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 13:41
More on today's unfolding events - the local TV news in Boston have all set up at the courthouse. Choppers are delivering aerial pics and multiple news crews are on the ground where reporters are doing live shots.

And - this is notable - a podium/mike stand has been set up at the entrance to the courthouse, despite the fact that no press conference or official statement has been announced.

After how they botched the coverage in the hours and days after the bombing I'm sure they'll be more careful but the stage is setting up for more potential mistakes that become low hanging fruit for the purveyors of tin foil.
 
12nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 14:11


I haven't got time to read everything thing you are posting, it's late here and I am still headed back to work.

The first two posts are meaningless.

You implied in your original post that DHS buying large amounts of ammo are in the same league as Big foot.

The story of 1.6 Billion rounds was reported by main stream news organizations.

Here one example of testimony:

"The Department of Homeland Security responded Friday to questions from Rep. Tim Huelskamp, R-Kan., about why the agency was allegedly planning to buy some 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition over the next five years.

DHS told Whispers it regularly fills all of its goods and services requirements at one time because it's cheaper for the agency, and that the 1.6 billion number was misleading because the language of DHS's purchase said it would need "up to" a certain amount."

That's from the Tin foil US NEWS and World Report

They aren't denying it, they are just saying it's no big deal, they are getting a better price and they need a lot for target practice. Maybe they do.

But you called it non sensical. It's not it's a fact. The story was first broken by the Denver Post, reported in Forbes etc.

It may not mean anything, it may be totally legitimate. But it's not non sensical, it's a fact.

So I don't have time to read 20 pages of "Fact Check" I have the testimony right in front of me of the Homeland security. They were "considering" up to 1.6 billion rounds, and they explained why.

Now if there was something in all those pages you posted that said the Homeland security testimony was a lie, I will consider spending the two hours it would take to read it.


One article US News on testimony

I haven't read everything you posted because frankly I don't have that much time to dedicate to it. If you can be more precise and get to the point about why it's nonsensical without posting an encyclopedia, it would make it a lot easier to try and follow.
 
13nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 14:21

And for the record Alex Jones is not some new guy in the conspiro-theoro-sphere. He through his outlets, Prison Planet and Info Wars, is it's most prominent figure for probably a decade.
He increased his prominence when Glenn Beck began stealing Jones' material for his nightly show on FOX and a hilarious public battle of nutballs ensued


Might be true but he is not someone I have any interest in following, nor am I very familiar with him. First time I ever heard of him was when he debated Piers Morgan and I was wondering where did this nut come from. Glen Beck certainly isn't anyone I would stop turning the dial for.

There are all kinds of people into Conspiro, liberal and conservative, just because some are nut jobs doesn't mean it's one big church where all the members agree with each other.

I do mostly my own observational work, I don't trust people like Jones, I can see enough on my own without being mislead by someone who may not even be legitimate.

But then everything gets mixed together when people talk about conspiracy like just because one observes that something is not right, and gives logical explanations why, they get thrown in bed with these people and have to suddenly defend themselves against that image. One reason why I have always suspected the people like Jones are plants, is to make the whole subject look wacky.

 
14Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 14:26
You implied in your original post that DHS buying large amounts of ammo are in the same league as Big foot.

For the record I said hoarding but the implication is that the conspiracy theories are in the same league as bigfoot and I'll stand by that.

The story of 1.6 Billion rounds was reported by main stream news organizations.

It was "reported" by conservative opinion media, which led to several government responses, and then mainstream reports about those government responses.

That's from the Tin foil US NEWS and World Report

It obviously isn't tin foil to report on what government officials say. But you're clearly wearing a shiny hat if you think that quote from Huelskamp is evidence of any government conspiracy related to ammunition hoarding.

Do yourself and the forum a favor, Nerveclinic and respond to some of this stuff when you have the time and a clear head.
 
19Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 18:45

Do yourself and the forum a favor, Nerveclinic and respond to some of this stuff when you have the time and a clear head.

I don't need you to tell me when I have a clear head.

I've already responded to it effectively.

I've posted here for 10 years.

People have a pretty good idea of my intellectual capability and integrity. I stand on the foundation I've laid.

Lots of people disagree with my positions, hopefully most can see it comes from an intellectual examination, that may have conclusions that differ from theirs but at least it doesn't involve a tin foil hat.




 
20Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 18:47

Wow now you are censoring people when they simply talk about censorship?
 
21Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 18:53
He wasn't talking about censorship. That was the problem. He was talking about members of the "liberal media" literally sleeping with their sources.

It was a rant about the "MSM" and had nothing to do with censorship.
 
22Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 19:10
my intellectual capability and integrity

I certainly haven't questioned your integrity. Where does that come from?

Intellectual is your term and I wouldn't use it.

But very recently you have relied on some very alarming... mistakes(?) when it comes to interpreting the news media.

You seem unable or unwilling to tell the difference between a media outlet citing anonymous sources from actual statements made by government officials.

You seem unable or unwilling to tell the difference between a news report and an opinion piece.

You seem unable or unwilling to separate the wheat from the chaff when breaking down a conspiracy theory.

By that last one, what I mean is that no one questioned that the government purchased a large quantity of information. The crucial part is whether this is evidence of anything awry - and that's the part that you just shrug off, declaring you don't have the time to waste on such things while harping on the fact that a large quantity of ammunition was purchased.

I agree, your record here stands for itself, which is why I say I find this alarming. I'm happy to chalk it up to a bad week or so but in any case you're very sloppy lately - particularly so in this thread.
 
23Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 19:13
err... no one questioned that the government purchased a large quantity of ammunition.
 
25Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 19:28
By the way

I don't need you to tell me when I have a clear head.

By "time and a clear head" I was referring to post 12 above, where you indicated that you were on your way out, and a post in the door-to-door thread when you commented that it was after midnight and that your eyes were glazed over.

Both of those things were given as reasons for why you did not read through what I had written, but were commenting anyway.
 
26Tree
      ID: 4424115
      Wed, May 01, 2013, 21:12
The New Hampshire state legislator who has said the federal government caused the Boston Marathon bombing claimed proof in a victim who lost both legs and "was not in pain."

yep.
 
27Boldwin
      ID: 10441122
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 00:14
It is hard to think of a more fitting post in this thread which contrasts supposedly legitimate media and supposedly illegitimate media than to describe the path of Amber Lyon, former reporter for CNN.

Who tells you straight out that so called 'legitimate media' ordered her to fabricate and spin America into a war with Iran and Syria, and who ended up telling the truth at the only outlet willing to tell the truth...the supposedly illegitimate Alex Jones show.

Go on demonizing Alex Jones and insisting on CNN tho.
 
28chode
      ID: 212581213
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 10:02
#20 was very clearly in response to RGPD's deletion of nerve's general questioning of the standards for censored posts, not RGPD's deletion of Baldwin posts he didn't want to read.
 
29Boldwin
      ID: 364024
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 10:52
Let Nerve speak for himself.
 
30Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 14:05
Oklahoma Rep. Frank Lucas (R) recently told a conservative radio show that President Barack Obama's administration may be engaged in a "conspiracy" to purchase all available ammunition as a form of gun control.

Janet Napolitano even said so in a committee hearing! ...or something.
 
31Boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 15:03
Tying up the supply, plain as day.
 
32Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 15:40
plain as day.

For the rubes and the hate-consumed, maybe.

For those interested in anything more than what is plain as day to Boldwin, Americans purchase on average 7 to 10 billion rounds of ammunition per year.

But since Obama was elected, the amount of Ammo purchased by the public has skyrocketed. 12 billion were bought in 2009.

Assuming even a slightly correlating increase in the number of rounds purchased by private gun owners to the number of guns Americans have bought each year since 2009, we can be safely assume that American citizens bought an awful lot more that 12 billion rounds in 2012.

The likely increase over the previous average surely dwarfs any increase in government purchases easily, making the notion that the government is trying to buy up the supply patently absurd to any thinking person outside of the tinfoil set.
 
33boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:38
And they would have bought twice as many if there were any left on the shelves.
 
34boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:40
Field and Stream

Well known conspiracy site.
 
35Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:43
Well you can't blame the government for preventing them from buying twice as many, since, again, the increase in government purchases was easily dwarfed by the increase in civilian purchases. The latter was obviously the driving factor in any ammunition shortage that occurred, though I'm not entirely certain there was, in fact, an ammunition shortage.

How long does it take for ammo manufacturers to fill orders made by their retailer clients, anyway?

Or have the ammunition manufacturers Gone Reardon?

There's a conspiracy theory for you!
 
36Tree
      ID: 18446211
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:44
Field and Stream

Well known conspiracy site.


that's actually the Field and Stream message board. as you're well aware, any nut job can post on a message board.
 
37Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:45
#34 is pretty bizarre. That guy wants to know why civilians are buying up all the ammo. Which is what I've said is the real cause of any shortage (if there is a shortage) as opposed to Superstar's claim, that the gub'mint is hoarding it.

Which is it tough guy?
 
38boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:49
April 25, 2013, CNS News

Jeff Dillard, who runs National Armory in Pompano, Florida says, "I have never seen ammo so impossible to get."

Bruce A. Pelletier, owner of Pelletier's Sports in Jaffrey, New Hampshire, says in his forty-four years in business, he's never seen the shortage this bad.

"Customers have been buying it all at once. We've been at the point to limiting it to one or two boxes per person, so at least that more than one of our customers can have some."

At Sam's Outdoor Outfitters, which has locations in both New Hampshire and Vermont, rationing isn't even an option.

"We haven't had any ammunition that we can limit," says owner Stanley Borofsky.

"People are calling on a daily basis...I've been here since 1957, and I've never seen the shortage this bad," he said.

Tyler Boucher of Highlander Arms in Chesterfield believes that the "prepper" movement and rumors of the government buying up large quantities has exacerbated the run on ammunition.

"We have very, very little. Normally, it's readily available," he said.

Scott Morris, president and manager of Freedom Armory in Springfield Township says that after the shooting in Newtown, his store was "cleaned out within three days."

Morris says this is a long-term problem for both civilians and law enforcement.

"Right now, we're rationing ammunition...we have police departments that are scrambling," he said.

Denny Thomas, owner of B&B Sporting Goods in Hines, Oregon says that the shortage is as bad as it's ever been.

"Right now there's a real shortage on rimfire ammo."

Manufacturers, he says, "can't even keep up with making the cardboard boxes to put the ammo in."

Doug Toelke, store manager at Snappy Sport Senter in Evergreen, MT said, "It's tough for the manufacturers and the distributors to fill orders.

"The whole pipeline is dried up."

Toelke says that when the shop does get ammunition in, it disappears immediately:

"We'll put it on our shelves and we'll limit it to five boxes per customer and it might last an afternoon."
 
39boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:54
Which is it tough guy? It's both of course, wise guy.

The more moves Obama makes towards their guns the more guns and ammo they buy. When the government ties up billions of rounds of manufacturing capacity of course it exacerbates the problem as it was intended to.
 
40Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 17:37
That doesn't explain why the spike began in 2009. What move was made then?

The whole notion of the gub'mint buying up all of a product that is manufactured and retailed at the pace of ammunition in America is absurd. Like Doritos, they'll gladly just make more.

Think about this. You believe the objective is to keep ammunition out of the people's hands and you think the means to accomplish this is to deliberately promp them to buy up more ammo.

I recall you once claimed here that you could have been a master-level chess player. I think you're a superstar.
 
41Boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 17:53
OMG, do I really need to lay out all the anti-gun votes Obama has ever made? How obvious does it have to be? It is blindingly obvious to those purchasers.
 
42Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:03
Sure buddy. It's obvious.
 
43Boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:07
And the spike didn't begin in 2009. It began the day Mr I-Hate-Guns got elected.

But surely you must have suspected that when you wrote That doesn't explain why the spike began in 2009.
 
44Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:15
The point is that you would have to be a fool blind with hate to believe - as you have claimed there is a government conspiracy underway to buy up ammunition in order to keep it out of civilians' hands, or to stockpile it for any other nefarious reason.
 
45Boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:21
You would have to be a fool to think they need hollow point ammo for target practice.
 
46Tree
      ID: 18446211
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:23
And the spike didn't begin in 2009. It began the day Mr I-Hate-Guns got elected.

the NRA never met a marketing angle for the gun industry they didn't like. any gun owner who thinks the NRA speaks for them - and not the gun industry - is a fool.
 
47Boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:27
Which cost twice as much as standard ammo. So they are reserving a billion rounds that cost twice as much to save money.

Math is hard Mr MITH, huh?
 
48Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:42
So the problem is that the citizenry is being denied hollow point bullets?

OK Superstar, show me that gub'mint has purchased more hollow-point ammunition than previously budgeted on a per-personnel basis prior to the Obama Administration and I'll look into it.
 
49Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:45
For the record, according to Snopes, "many law enforcement personnel train and practice with the same type of ammunition they use in the field."
 
50Boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:45
First you explain to me why the Dept of Education needs hollow point bullets. Playing hooky is BAAAAD?
 
51Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 19:02
I don't know that they are. And I certainly wouldn't take you or Alex Jones on your word. In any case, whether they are or not, I haven't looked into it. AND NEITHER HAVE YOU.

For example, assuming for the moment they do, is it a new thing that the Dept of Ed uses hollow points? You have no idea, do you?

And of course it's not an unreasonable question to ask, but lets be honest, you aren't asking honest questions here. If the answer is no, you don't want to know it.

What you want - more than anything - is the validation of learning that your wildest persecution fantasies are real. And that's sick and it is why you can never be a reliably useful or civil member of this forum.

It's what makes you a superstar.
 
52Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 19:18
So they are reserving a billion rounds that cost twice as much to save money. - Superstar.

Even Alex Jones Doesn't make this claim, by the way. According to him, it's 600,000 hollow point rounds. that's six-tenths of one million, in case you're someone for whom math is hard.
 
53Tree
      ID: 18446211
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 19:19
from the National Review

"The Great Ammunition Myth"

the article explains why many departments of the government, INCLUDING THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, purchase ammo and weapons.

The Office of Inspector General is the law enforcement arm of the U.S. Department of Education and is responsible for the detection of waste, fraud, abuse, and other criminal activity involving Federal education funds, programs, and operations.

As such, OIG operates with full statutory law-enforcement authority, which includes conducting search warrants, making arrests, and carrying firearms. The acquisition of these firearms is necessary to replace older and mechanically malfunctioning firearms, and in compliance with Federal procurement requirements.
 
54Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 19:21
Traitorous wretches, the National Review, with their facts.
 
55Tree
      ID: 18446211
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 19:31
this is probably the part of the convo where Baldwin:

1. completely changes the subject
2. pulls the "no one wants to see us interact" BS
3. admits he might actually be wrong about something
 
56Boldwin
      ID: 4141214
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 00:11
So they need hollowpoint ammo to root out waste fraud and abuse at schools and school administration. The NEA is shooting back thee days?

I thot I was harsh on the education system.
 
57Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 09:04
The OIG has investigators who are sworn federal agents. One of the requirements is carrying a firearm. I've talked to a couple of NSF agents (investigators) and I asked specifically about carrying their guns. Most of them admitted that it was annoying and hot to carry, but they are required to have them.

 
58Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 09:27


Were they roughneck jack-booted thugs?
 
59Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 10:23
Conspiracy as Commerce
 
60Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 10:39
Cablevision, which has over three million subscribers in the New York/New Jersey/Connecticut tri-state area will be adding The Blaze on it's silver and gold packages.

So the media is giving Glenn Beck the same treatment as fellow Christian Tim Tebow: more attention than he deserves.
 
61Tree
      ID: 38322228
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 12:04
I thot I was harsh on the education system.

you're not harsh on the education system. like most things, you're just ignorant about it.
 
62Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 18:14

MITH

But very recently you have relied on some very alarming... mistakes(?) when it comes to interpreting the news media.

Can you share with us exactly what this means because I have no clue. Can you please copy and paste the quote otherwise we are all just sleep walking in the dark.

You seem unable or unwilling to tell the difference between a media outlet citing anonymous sources from actual statements made by government officials.

Can you share with us exactly what this means because I have no clue. Can you please copy and paste the quote otherwise we are all just sleep walking in the dark.

You seem unable or unwilling to tell the difference between a news report and an opinion piece.

Can you share with us exactly what this means because I have no clue. Can you please copy and paste the quote otherwise we are all just sleep walking in the dark.

You seem unable or unwilling to separate the wheat from the chaff when breaking down a conspiracy theory.

Can you share with us exactly what this means because I have no clue. Can you please copy and paste the quote otherwise we are all just sleep walking in the dark.

By that last one, what I mean is that no one questioned that the government purchased a large quantity of information. The crucial part is whether this is evidence of anything awry - and that's the part that you just shrug off, declaring you don't have the time to waste on such things while harping on the fact that a large quantity of ammunition was purchased


We don't know if anything is awry. I don't trust the government, Bush or Obama.If you do that's you call. But the very large purchase is not "non sensical" as you stated in the original post, so now it's down to semantics.

Why you think anyone is paranoid, for wondering if something may be "awry with the purchase (Even if there's not)", after we watched the military (or police impersonation of such) go door to door in Boston, order innocent people out of their houses, yank their arms above their heads if they weren't high enough and order them down the street while they search their home. If there is a line in the sand, and you stand on the side that says, no problem, we should just accept that then I understand why you think it's paranoid, to scratch your head at a purchase (or possible purchase) by HS of 1.6 billion rounds, including hollow points (Which are illegal in war)

I agree, your record here stands for itself, which is why I say I find this alarming. I'm happy to chalk it up to a bad week or so but in any case you're very sloppy lately - particularly so in this thread.

Arrogant much?



 
63Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 18:17

Chode #20 was very clearly in response to RGPD's deletion of nerve's general questioning of the standards for censored posts, not RGPD's deletion of Baldwin posts he didn't want to read.

Correct I made a post questioning the censorship here and it was deleted almost immediately. No idea who did it they didn't share that with me.



 
64Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 18:24

you commented that it was after midnight and that your eyes were glazed over.

My eyes glazed over because in response to a post I made, rather then just state your point, you linked to 2 very long articles which one would have to read to understand what exactly you were saying.

My suggestion would be, in future, state your specific point in your own words, or cut and paste the relevant section of the 10 page article, and THEN post the link to verify what you have claimed.

Not all of us have time to read every 10 page article some one posts about a subject we aren't particularly interested in anyway, (why the government is buying 1.6 billion bullets) and THAT is why my eyes were glazed over.

 
65Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 18:34

Who is Chode?

 
66Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 18:41
oldtime gurupie. Doesn't post here too much, but he's been around for years.
 
68Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 20:02
Mith: you have relied on some very alarming... mistakes(?) when it comes to interpreting the news media.

Nerve: Can you share with us exactly what this means because I have no clue.

That sentence in post 22 was explained by the sentences that followed. I will try to point you to exactly the places where I have already explained these points but I am taking the time to do so on the (at this point somewhat generous) assumption that you will actually bother to read through what I have already written and now more concisely pasted into this post, since to date you have been too lazy to bother to do so - despite the fact that you feel the need to comment on these things which you admit that have not read in full. As you can imagine this is quite frustrating for me since, as I've indicated, I've already explained all of this already.


Mith: You seem unable or unwilling to tell the difference between a media outlet citing anonymous sources from actual statements made by government officials.

Nerve: Can you share with us exactly what this means because I have no clue.

Why certainly Nerveclinic. In post #2, you wrote the following:
On (I think it was) Tuesday after the bombing, the government announced they had caught the bomber, he was in their custody, they were about to arraign him at the courthouse and they would hold a press conference at 5PM.

Those are all facts, no tin foil.
This was an alarming... mistake(?). In post #6, I wrote the following in response (a few slight edits were made here to make the response clearer):
On the Wednesday after bombing, the government most certainly did not announce they had caught the bomber, or that he was in their custody, or that they were about to arraign him. I work in a newsroom. That is the kind of thing that gets announced at a press conference, or at least in a press release. There was no press conference, no press release. Media outlets were citing unconfirmed reports from anonymous sources that were "close to" officials. Eventually media outlets were just reporting what they heard and read other outlets reported based on unconfirmed reports from their anonymous sources.

I even mentioned this in the Boston Bombing thread as it was happening.

In post 66, I wrote: Every news outlet is currently breaking different information regarding whether or not a suspect is in custody.

And the - quite presciently - I wrote in post 70: One of the most frustrating things about these hectic breaking news environments is that every time the media gets something wrong, the conspiro-theorists pounce on it as evidence of a coverup or inside job or, their latest buzzword, a false flag operation.

Just as prescient was my post #22 two days earlier from the day of the bombings: I also saw a NYP report that the JFK Library explosion was linked to the marathon bombs but the law enforcement news conference specifically wouldnt confirm that and CNN is reporting that it was actually related to a fire.

This type of media confusion and impatience during major breaking news tragedies is what leads conspiracy theorists to flood facebook with claims that events this are government hoaxes.

The fact that two weeks later you are still suckered by that bad reporting is incredibly lazy or embarrassingly ignorant on your part, Nerveclinic. No, those aren't facts, Brah.


If the tin foil fits...

Mith: You seem unable or unwilling to tell the difference between a news report and an opinion piece.

Nerve: Can you share with us exactly what this means because I have no clue.

Why certainly, Nerveclinic. In post #12, you wrote:
The story of 1.6 Billion rounds was reported by main stream news organizations.
This was an alarming... mistake(?). In post #6, I wrote the following in response:
It was "reported" by conservative opinion media, which led to several government responses, and then mainstream reports about those government responses.

Mith: You seem unable or unwilling to separate the wheat from the chaff when breaking down a conspiracy theory.

Nerve: Can you share with us exactly what this means because I have no clue.

Mith [by way of Nerve who was answering his own question by including the text that followed the above statement after he asked me to explain it]: By that last one, what I mean is that no one questioned that the government purchased a large quantity of information. The crucial part is whether this is evidence of anything awry - and that's the part that you just shrug off, declaring you don't have the time to waste on such things while harping on the fact that a large quantity of ammunition was purchased

Nerve: But the very large purchase is not "non sensical" as you stated in the original post, so now it's down to semantics.

Yes I agree; you indeed clearly failed to understand the semantics!

You see, Nerveclinic, a government or other conspiracy theory implies by the nature of the term that it is a theory that something is awry. So, very clearly (as I am quite sure was understood by every other person who read the title and topic field of this thread) when I referred to "nonsensical DHS ammunition hoarding reports" (not "buying", "hoarding" - you understand the difference, yes?), I was talking very specifically about the various theories going around that something is awry related to a supposed conspiracy that the US government is hoarding ammunition. Is this clear now?


Nerve: Arrogant much?

I've been called that before, so perhaps, to some extent. But definitely not arrogant enough to so respond to a post that does not implicate me or even suggest me in it's complaints as to construct a diatribe the size of #2 based largely on a gross misunderstanding of a single line in the topic field, suggest what the writer must not have read, and sarcastically refer to him as "smart guy... (no offense)".

And I would have to be even more arrogant than that to close with some high-end snark like, Honestly I don't know why I bother sometimes.

Jokes on you brah.


And were I that arrogant, I would still have to be even yet more arrogant to refuse to read through the explanations the writer then took the time to type out to every single point I made (while chiding him for "posting an encyclopedia", after he clearly read the entirety of initial arrogant response.

So arrogant some, or sometimes, I guess. But not nearly as much as some others I can think of.


So how about we drop the prickly snark and hypersensitivity and participate in the discussions presented - or just not? OK?

Or failing that, at the very least, please stop calling me "Brah".
 
69Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Fri, May 03, 2013, 20:50
Also - regarding post 64:

You said in the "Door to Door" thread that your eyes glazed over after a post in which I linked an article (not two articles, I just linked one) to support my opinion that Ron Paul is a "fraud" (it was not an article about why the government is buying ammo).

And it was not 10 pages long. It was one page.

It was kind of a long article I guess - 1800 words. That's not Washington Post Sunday feature long or NY Times Magazine long, but adittedly longer than what you get from something like Page 6 in the NY Post.

It was a little more than twice as many words as post 2, which of course I took the time to read in entirety and respond to each point.

Thank you for your suggestion but I think most high school graduates probably could have skimmed the 1800 words and gotten the gist well inside of 2 minutes.

And for the record, in this thread, over three posts (4, 9 & 49) I have linked 5 total items about the government buying ammo. In each case I excerpted the specific quotes I found relevant so that the reader did not have to click the link and read through the whole thing. You still didn't bother.
 
70Boldwin
      ID: 104841
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 08:10
Here's a wild eyed conspiracy. What if the administration was painting the sort of people who fled Europe and built America as monsterous evil people who were the enemy of the United States Army?
Anti-Christian extremist Mikey Weinstein is now advising the Pentagon, helping set policy on religious tolerance in our armed forces.

Weinstein is anything but tolerant, attacking "fundamentalist Christian monsters" and calling Christians "pitiable unconstitutional carpetbaggers." He has directly compared Christians in the military to al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

Yet, the nation's military leaders at the Pentagon, which he refers to as the "Pentacostalgon," are actually consulting with Weinstein – relying on his input – as they create new policies that may roll back religious liberty – especially for Christians. - Jay Sekulow, ACLJ Chief Counsel

----

Redstate

NRO:
“We’re concerned that this is more than an isolated incident,” he said. “We’d like answers. Is there a policy in the military concerning people of faith?”

Crews said that soldiers have religious liberty – and they should not be punished for being members of respected religious groups.

“This is part of a trend that is concerning us,” he said. “Several in the military have this belief that evangelicals and people who hold to traditional values seem to be a problem and need to be monitored.”

Perkins, a Marine Corps veteran, said it’s clear that “Army Values” have indeed changed.

“And it’s the values of Evangelicals and Catholics,” Perkins said. “It’s not the values of the vast majority of those serving in our nation’s military. I think it’s the values of this administration trying to superimpose upon our military.”

Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Jerry Boykin, now an executive vice president of the FRC, told Fox News that all Americans should be concerned about the contents of the email.

“If this is the action of a single Army lieutenant colonel, it needs to be investigated,” he said. “On the other hand, if what he reflects is a shifting policy or attitude of the Army or DOD, then I think it is a much bigger issue.”

Boykin served more than 36 years in the military before retiring in 2007. Since 2008 he said he’s seen withering attacks on religious liberty.

Among the incidents:

-A War Games scenario at Fort Leavenworth that identified Christian groups and Evangelical groups as being potential threats;

-A 2009 Dept. of Homeland Security memorandum that identified future threats to national security coming from Evangelicals and pro-life groups;

-A West Point study released by the U.S. Military Academy’s Combating Terrorism Center that linked pro-lifers to terrorism;

-Evangelical leader Franklin Graham was disinvited from the Pentagon’s National Day of Prayer service because of his comments about Islam;

-Christian prayers were banned at the funeral services for veterans at Houston’s National Cemetery;

-Bibles were banned at Walter Reed Army Medical Center – a decision that was later rescinded;

-Christian crosses and a steeple were removed from a chapel in Afghanistan because the military said the icons disrespected other religions;

-Catholic chaplains were told not to read a letter to parishioners from their archbishop related to Obamacare mandates. The Secretary of the Army feared the letter could be viewed as a call for civil disobedience.

But Boykin called the newly-uncovered email the most “egregious” attack.

“That kind of rhetoric is isolating the institution of the military from a large sector of the American population,” he said. “This is an attack not only on the Christian faith, but on fundamental, traditional American values.”

Crews said the military is getting their information on domestic hate groups from the Southern Poverty Law Center. And the email written by the lieutenant colonel referenced the organization.

“This is disturbing that the military would use this list composed by the Southern Poverty Law Center when these organizations that are highly esteemed and respected in the evangelical community,” he said.

The Chaplain Alliance filed a Freedom of Information Act request – asking if the SPLC list had been widely distributed in the military or if had been used in a formal manner.

The response they got from the Dept. of Defense left Crews troubled.

“They told us they had no record of the SPLC list being used,” he said – even though the email clearly proves otherwise.

“This is part of a trend that is concerning us,” he said. “We believe it is more widespread than the military is acknowledging. We keep getting calls from military personnel telling us of their issues.”
What an outrageous suggestion that there might be a link between the Obama administration turning the US military into a christian hating body which sees christians as threat #1...

...and every agency in the government storing up completely unnecessary overkill hollowpoint bullets like there was no tomorrow.

 
71Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 08:17


So MITH here is where we have the problem, and here is why we are never going to agree. I saw on the news, streaming on the internet, CNN and Bloomberg both report that:

1) The authorities had told them they had a suspect in custody.

2) They were bringing him to the courthouse to arraign him.

3) That they have a press conference to announce the arrest and arraignment scheduled for 5PM that day.

4) That there was a bomb scare at the court house where the suspect was to be arraigned.

5) That the authorities had now canceled the press conference an they needed more time.

Now I watched all that in real time. Not on Alex Jone's website.

You are telling, that while yes, what I saw was in fact reported, it was all a big mistake?

You suggest:

On the Wednesday after bombing, the government most certainly did not announce they had caught the bomber, or that he was in their custody, or that they were about to arraign him. I work in a newsroom. That is the kind of thing that gets announced at a press conference, or at least in a press release.

The media (CNN) said they had been told by authorities the press conference was scheduled for 5PM that day. So that would be the press conference you were looking for. Did the media just make that up? Including the time?

The government later says nope, we don't have anyone. Now you simply accept their explanation, completely blame the media?

So that means the media completely fabricated 1) the arrest? 2) the impending arraignment? 3) The bomb threat where he was about to be arraigned? (Which I personally heard reported on CNN) 4) and the 5PM press conference?

Wow.

And you just accept everything the government tells you about it? That it was all CNN's fault, all of it?

Now just humor me for a minute. If there really was an arrest, scheduled arraignment and planned press conference (of a patsy), and if after that, something went wrong, they realized somehow this patsy wasn't going to work. Or as we used to say in the south, this dog ain't gonna hunt. If that happened, what would we expect them to say? Perhaps that the media got it wrong?

CNN for it's part said: "it would not apologise to viewers, with a spokesperson telling Michael Calderone of the Huffington Post: "CNN had three credible sources on both local and federal levels. Based on this information we reported our findings.

Now they are saying, no, MITH is wrong, it wasn't "Sloppy reporting" because we had 3 government officials confirm the story. Maybe they were talking to the wrong government officials?

Or maybe CNN is lying? Just made it all up to make things more exciting on the news?

Because even if the report was inaccurate, they claim 3 different government officials had told them.

But I have all that data, and you scold me "This was an alarming... mistake"

Maybe what you call a "mistake" is something a reasonable person may think is a fair question.

I've heard your argument, all sloppy reporting, just believe the governments version, and I still don't think I made an "alarming mistake".

If along the way, there was just one little odd thing that happened, it's understandable, things can happen; but when the oddities pile up, a reasonable person can question things without being accused of making alarming mistakes.

But if you make up the rules, and the rules are "If the government tells us it was sloppy reporting, then it must be so", then what is the point of going any further. Because anything I point out will be worth less to you. What is the point, if those are the rules. Let's just have the government explain it to us and accept whatever they tell us.

Like this guy they had in custody for an extended period of time who they had strip naked. The mother and aunt are both sure that was suspect one. The police had photos of him, they all knew what he looked like. But they assure us, nope wasn't him. But his own mother and aunt claim it was. But you know they are wrong MITH because the government told us.

Or like when they said they were in a shoot out at the boat with suspect 2, and that he shot himself in the mouth? But then later the government tells us he doesn't even have a gun, and they don't blame the media, they say it was their mistake.

The fire at the library is an easy mistake. There were two bombings and shortly after there was a fire at a major public facility. That is easy to understand why there was a mix up.

But how does all this get made up about the first reported arrest?

1) The authorities had told them they had a suspect in custody.

2) They were bringing him to the courthouse to arraign him.

3) That they have a press conference to announce the arrest and arraignment.

4) That there was a bomb scare at the court house where the suspect was to be arraigned.

5) That the authorities had now canceled the press conference an they needed more time.

All of which I heard reported.

I understand that sloppy reporting happens, but that is an awful lot of detail, down to the time of a new conference that you say was never going to happen in the first place.

So there you have it MITH, we are both looking at the same sunset, and you see only one possibility, that the government assured us the media just got it wrong.

What I do differently, which you call alarming, I take that same information and I put it in a little bucket, and I put that little bucket at my feet with all the other information and I scratch my head a bit and I look down into that bucket and I try to see if maybe, and believe me it's only a maybe, something is going on that isn't 100% apparent until you look at all the items in the bucket together.



 
72Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 10:17
Nerveclinic

The media (CNN) said they had been told by authorities the press conference was scheduled for 5PM that day. So that would be the press conference you were looking for. Did the media just make that up? Including the time?

The government later says nope, we don't have anyone. Now you simply accept their explanation, completely blame the media?


For the record, please recall that my point regarding the reports about someone in custody on that Wednesday was that you seem unable or unwilling to tell the difference between a media outlet citing anonymous sources from actual statements made by government officials.

You see, CNN did not say anything that sounded like; "The FBI has stated officially that they have a suspect in custody" or "Boston PD has just issued a press release that they will announce a suspect in custody at a 5pm news conference."

Fortunately, Buzzfeed kept a tally of the unfolding meltdown. Unfortunately, the linked page has over 1500 words, so per your earlier request, I'll paste the relevant parts so that you don't have to click the link and read through it but you can click through to see the actual tweets for yourself:
1:42 p.m.: AP breaks the story that an arrest is imminent.

1:43 p.m.: Reuters reports that investigators do not have the name of a suspect, makes no mention of a suspect in custody.

1:46 p.m.: Citing the AP report and an independent source, CNN tells viewers that an arrest has been made.

1:51 p.m.: Reuters reports CNN's story that a suspect is in custody.

1:51 p.m.: In a live special report, ABC News reports that an arrest "may be imminent."

1:55 p.m.: In a live special report, NBC's Pete Williams says that no arrest has been made but individuals have been identified as persons of "great interest."

2:02 p.m.: AP updates its story and reports that a suspect is in police custody.

2:03 p.m.: CBS reports that no arrest has been made.

2:05 p.m.: FOX News confirms that an arrest has been made.

2:08 p.m.: ABC reports that authorities are "close to identifying a suspect."

2:09 p.m.: NBC News doubles down, says no arrest has been made.

2:13 p.m.: CNN tweets that a suspect has been arrested.

2:18 p.m.: CBS reports that no arrest has been made, but a suspect was identified through cell phone tower logs.

2:24 p.m.: Reuters stands by its earlier statement that no arrests have been made.

2:25 p.m.: Boston Globe reports that the suspect is being taken to the US District Court in South Boston.

2:26 p.m.: Media descends on the Federal Courthouse in Boston.

2:32 p.m.: Citing multiple sources, NBC reports that no arrest has been made.

2:33 p.m.: Boston Police Department says there has not been an arrest.

2:36 p.m.: Boston Globe reports that there is NO suspect in custody and NO ONE is under arrest.

2:38 p.m.: CNN backtracks, says that no arrest has been made.

2:37 p.m.: BuzzFeed's Jessica Testa reports that Homeland Security officers are outside the federal courthouse.

2:42 p.m.: CBS reports that the suspect is a white male, describes clothing.

2:43 p.m.: FBI spokesperson tells Bloomberg News that no arrest has been made.

2:47 p.m.: AP walks it back, reports that there's no suspect in custody.

2:49 p.m.: FOX News backpedals, cites "conflicting reports."

2:52.: BuzzFeed's Jessica Testa reports on media chaos at the Boston federal courthouse.

2:53 p.m.: Conflicting reports appear on CNN's homepage.

2:58 p.m.: The FBI releases a statement confirming that no arrest has been made.

3:00 p.m.: CNN posts a correction on its Facebook page.

3:05 p.m.: AP says its law enforcement source stood by the information despite conflicting reports.

[Skipping over the part where the coverage switched to a bomb threat and evacuation at the courthouse. That really happened. Unfortunately Buzzfeed missed a tweet I saw during this time in which one local reporter said that there was absolutely no reason for why all of the media should be at the courthouse. -Mith]

4:24 p.m.: Boston Globe reports that 5 p.m. FBI briefing has been cancelled.

4:36 p.m.: Reuters reports that the FBI has postponed the 5 p.m. press briefing.

CNN for it's part said: "it would not apologise to viewers, with a spokesperson telling Michael Calderone of the Huffington Post: "CNN had three credible sources on both local and federal levels. Based on this information we reported our findings.

This is where critical thinking and cognitive dissonance come in. Who were the sources? They didn't tell you, did they? This is why it is so important to differentiate between a media outlet citing anonymous sources from actual statements made by government official.

Another terrific indicator that this was a case of CNN blowing it as opposed to a government coverup having something to do with a lie about whether there was a bombing suspect in custody (aside from the anonymous sources and the massive confusion between all the media sources) is simple application of Occam's razor, unless you are someone for whom cognitive dissonance is a problem.

You see, this is not ever what happens when the government - particularly law enforcement - wants to deliver information to the public through the media. They do not tell give a single outlet or a couple of outlets some off-the-record info and leave the rest of the news media to figure it out from there.

They have an official release, if not an actual press conference. If they announce that there will be a press conference, it will come from an official release that gets delivered publicly in some manner, usually emailed to media all over the country. I receive a thousand or more such emails per week.

In my newsroom we were scratching our heads as CNN and FNC and local Boston outlets were all reporting different things about a suspect in custody - because we knew that we hadn't received anything official.

I hope you're able to get through this email without your eyes glazing over. It's 1010 words long, which is 1 word longer than the post it responded to. I could have made it a bit shorter but the relevant excerpt from the Buzzfeed piece took up 467 words.
 
73Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 10:18
“We’d like answers. Is there a policy in the military concerning people of faith?”


Perhaps a better question would be,
"Is there a policy in the military concerning people who are non-religious, atheists, agnostics or secular humanists?"

Taxpayer-funded rabbis, priests, ministers, and imams are devoutly helping our military personnel to be all that they can be in today's Army while the nonreligious are treated as second-class citizens.

During basic training, many secular humanist, atheist, and agnostic soldiers report being given a choice to attend religious services or be restricted to barracks while they are in progress. During World War II, Korea, and Vietnam, soldiers were not allowed to list "Atheist" on their military identification tags. Secular humanist and agnostic soldiers are still not allowed to identify themselves as such on their tags. Even in Arlington Cemetery, the tomb of the Unknown Soldier reads, "Here lie those whose names are known only to God." While this inscription may bring comfort to the religious majority, it is simply another example of preferential consideration given to the beliefs of the religious while God-free soldiers are ignored even in death.


link

Of course, Christian conservatives are not concerned with the rights and accomodations for the non-religious, because, after all, to them, they are second class citizens.
Consequently, no equality exists between the religious and the non-religious in the armed forces, even though, to answer the original question in this post concerning the policy of the military of people of faith:

The government may only accommodate or facilitate, not favor or promote, religious exercise. link
 
74Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 10:46
And I'm sorry, but it bears repeating that I predicted this the day and week of the bombing. Easiest prediction ever:

Monday, 4/15 17:40:
NY Post also reporting 12 dead and 50 injured.

However keep in mind that they arent the most reliable source and in a major breaking news situation a lot of media get burned for jumping the gun and reporting bad facts.

I also saw a NYP report that the JFK Library explosion was linked to the marathon bombs but the law enforcement news conference specifically wouldnt confirm that and CNN is reporting that it was actually related to a fire.

This type of media confusion and impatience during major breaking news tragedies is what leads conspiracy theorists to flood facebook with claims that events this are government hoaxes.
Where did the Post get the report that there were 12 dead? Did they just make it up?

I have no idea, but I'm pretty sure this wasn't part of any government conspiracy either, since I know that in the rush to scoop the competition on a major breaking news day, the media tends to get sloppy.

And of course sometimes bad info does come from official sources.

The night of the fertilizer plant explosion in West, TX, an EMS worker told reporters on the scene that there were over 60 confirmed dead. That number was revised down to about a dozen the next day. The EMS Director covered his department's butt by continuing to claim for several days that the number could hit 60 or more. But over two weeks later now, the number still stands at 15.
 
75Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 10:52
I take that same information and I put it in a little bucket, and I put that little bucket at my feet with all the other information and I scratch my head a bit and I look down into that bucket and I try to see if maybe, and believe me it's only a maybe, something is going on that isn't 100% apparent until you look at all the items in the bucket together.

I think this is a very good practice. The problem comes when you neglect to clean the refuse out of the bucket. Because when that happens, what you refer to as your bucket becomes more like a chamber pot.
 
76Boldwin
      ID: 0438412
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 13:45
This is the sensibility the censors are bending over backwards to appease. 'Mr.I'm MITH and I piss on your ideas.' You forgot to snark at us to 'stay classy'.
 
77Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 13:55
Your pot runneth over.
 
78nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 14:41
Read entire post 72.

It did absolutely nothing to counter my points.

Apparently I am walking on Mars and you are walking on Venus.

This is why it is so important to differentiate between a media outlet citing anonymous sources from actual statements made by government official.

Oh I agree, it's very possible the FBI spokesman is lying to you.

Again you are just taking the governments word on went down rather then using "critical thinking and cognitive dissonance" and all the information gathered, videos, photos etc. to put two and two together and question if something else might be going on.

But MITH what is the point of argueing anymore.

You take the governments story hook, line and sinker.

I am a sceptic.

You use as your evidence what the government tells you.

I look at all the variants in the equation combined with what the government tells me, granted, coming from a skeptical perspective.

Maybe you are right. I swear to you I hope you are right. I really hope so. I want so much to live in a world where it was just a couple of zealot psychos that did this.

But what is the point of arguing anymore?

I am walking on Mars and you are walking on Venus. The air is not the same.

All your evidence is "Why don't you just wait until the official government story tells us what happened and then we will know it's true."

Right?

I am a little more jaded in what I believe.

We can at least agree on that?





 
79nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 14:46


MITH

Let me agree with you on something. Post 35 if your figures are correct, that citizens bought 10x the amount of bullets as the government, then you are correct it could not be the govt. causing the shortage.

It has to be an increase by the average American stocking up.

Has hunting gotten more popular lately? I've been gone a while.



 
80Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 15:34
Oh I agree, it's very possible the FBI spokesman is lying to you

No FBI spokesman has delivered any information that there is any reason to question - unless you think a media organization quoting an anonymous source (that is quickly contradicted by other media sources and multiple other on-the-record official statements) is more reliable than an FBI spokesman.

I look at all the variants in the equation combined with what the government tells me, granted, coming from a skeptical perspective.

No, you look at a mess of confusion, ignore the consistent and steady voices from within it that turned out to be right, focus on the mistakes made by people who chose the priority of haste over the standards of their profession and decide their fleeting lapses are what is more reliable than the official statements that turned out to align exactly with what the cooler heads were saying at the time.

You use as your evidence what the government tells you.

No. I use as my evidence what I know from a career of first-hand experience about how the media lowers their standards for reporting in this kind of environment. I use as my evidence the fact that I work in a newsroom and understand how we would have received official word of an arrest if one had occurred and the fact there was no official word of a person in custody despite what some media outlets were reporting.


I swear to you I hope you are right.

With all due respect I don't see how I can believe this. I think you are only seeing exactly what you want to see. I don't know if it's fantasy or paranoia but you have to ignore an awful lot to arrive at the place you do with after all the info I've provided.

Look Nerveclinic, to whatever extent possible with a long-time online acquaintance, I like you. I respect you as much as anyone else I know exclusively from this forum, really. And I'm honestly not very comfortable with the way this discussion has gone. But I'm taken aback by the positions you insist on sticking with after all I've presented here.

Has hunting gotten more popular lately?

Nope, just the NRA's "Democrats will ban guns" propaganda over the past 5 years. Whether you think the propaganda is reasonable or not, there is no question, whatsoever that there has been a massive increase in private firearms and ammo sales in that time.

If this is news to you, I don't think it untoward to suggest that you might rethink some of the news sources that have delivered to you alarming reports about ammunition shortages without mentioning that crucial part of the equation.
 
81Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 16:01

unless you think a media organization quoting an anonymous source (that is quickly contradicted by other media sources and multiple other on-the-record official statements) is more reliable than an FBI spokesman.

They claim 3 anonymous national and local government sources.

So that leaves 3 possible explanations.

1) CNN is lying.

2) The Government (3) sources were lying.

3) Something went wrong and the people within the government had to lie to protect themselves.

The details were too spelled out to be simple "Sloppy reporting"

I have no idea which of the 3 are correct, you seem certain based simply on what the government tells you.

I CERTAINLY wouldn't trust someone's statement simply because he is an FBI spokesman. But you do.


 
82Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 16:13

I work in a newsroom and understand how we would have received official word of an arrest if one had occurred and the fact there was no official word of a person in custody despite what some media outlets were reporting.

The old I am a media expert card being played here.

OK and simply because your newsroom was not told a suspect was in custody. THAT is proof it didn't happen?

No offense, but you don't consider that perhaps CNN, the largest new organisation in the world, has a few "Anonymous government informants" on it's payroll that you don't?

I mean just because you work in a newsroom you imagine your organisation has all the inside scoops that CNN does?

Sorry but again that seems like a ridiculous counter argument. "I work in a newsroom"

And isn't it strange that CNN claims, 3 different govt officials told them they had a suspect, MITH that is either 3 sloppy people and /or CNN is lying.

So now the alternative reality is basically CNN is lying, which certainly is possible, but that also is in and of itself strange in a case like this, no? They are claiming 3 sources, and they didn't even back down when the govt said wrong.



 
83Nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sat, May 04, 2013, 16:46

Look Nerveclinic, to whatever extent possible with a long-time online acquaintance, I like you. I respect you as much as anyone else I know exclusively from this forum, really.

And I thank you for that but our discussion has nothing to do with that.

And I'm honestly not very comfortable with the way this discussion has gone. But I'm taken aback by the positions you insist on sticking with after all I've presented here.

My observations started back in the late 1980's, so don't feel badly that I stick to my instincts after "All you've presented here". Old dog new tricks kinda story. Nothing to do with your lessons.

Nope, just the NRA's "Democrats will ban guns" propaganda over the past 5 years.

I guess my sarcasm flew past you, I didn't really think it was hunters. Don't worry, they will ban guns eventually by the way.


I don't know if it's fantasy or paranoia but you have to ignore an awful lot to arrive at the place you do with after all the info I've provided.

Time to wind this down I think. But let me leave on this note.

I am 100% paranoid, there is no question about that:

Sometimes paranoia's just having all the facts..... William S. Burroughs

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you” Joseph Heller, Catch-22

This is a mournful discovery. 1)Those who agree with you are insane 2)Those who do not agree with you are in power.” Philip K. Dick, VALIS

“I know a secret,and secrets breed paranoia.” Simon Holt, The Devouring

“Strange how paranoia can link up with reality now and then.” Philip K. Dick, A Scanner Darkly

“Paranoia is just the bastard child of fear and good sense." (Charlie) ?

“Anyone not paranoid in this world must be crazy. . . . Speaking of paranoia, it's true that I do not know exactly who my enemies are. But that of course is exactly why I'm paranoid.” Edward Abbey,

“My paranoia wasn't always right, but just to be on the safe side, I never went to sleep with a clown in the room.” Mark Henwick, Hidden Trump

And with that I will head to sleep, with no clown in the room.








 
84Boldwin
      ID: 27443423
      Sun, May 05, 2013, 00:43
In 1984 there is always a clown in the room.
 
85Boldwin
      ID: 27443423
      Sun, May 05, 2013, 02:39
You computer that you leave connected and on all the time, your phone whether it's on or not, tomorrow your alarm clock.
 
86Boldwin
      ID: 27443423
      Sun, May 05, 2013, 02:44
And it won't just allow spying. It will be intelligent and decide when to alert authorities to do so.

 
87Boldwin
      ID: 3418620
      Tue, May 07, 2013, 07:52
“The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does. They are normal not in what may be called the absolute sense of the word; they are normal only in relation to a profoundly abnormal society. Their perfect adjustment to that abnormal society is a measure of their mental sickness. These millions of abnormally normal people, living without fuss in a society to which, if they were fully human beings, they ought not to be adjusted.” – Aldous Huxley – Brave New World Revisited
 
88Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 10:34
They don't know what to do with themselves this week.
If you spend every hour of your working life inventing new ways to attack Barack Obama or the government (or both), this is a very good week for you — or at least it should be. After trudging through the deserts of Benghazi and Fast and Furious for four years, trying to extract any tiny drop of scandal from stone, now suddenly comes manna from heaven, courtesy of the IRS and its misguided attempt to prevent political groups from taking advantage of the non-profit tax code. Then, even before you could digest the first course, the Department of Justice snoops on reporters. Glory be to Ronald Reagan’s ghost! The Promised Land of Impeachment can’t be far off.


In an interview with WorldNetDaily — so we already know it’s going to be good — Bachmann said she thought the Obama administration intentionally released embarrassing news about the IRS targeting the Tea Party in some kind of elaborate Wag the Dog-style plot to distract from Benghazi:
Bachmann said the IRS announcement of misbehavior was intended to provoke conservatives and draw their anger and attention.

“I was in that Benghazi hearing,” she told WND. “I think the Obama administration is desperate to spin Benghazi, and they can’t. I think they saved this story up for a day like today so that conservatives would focus on this admission.”

It won’t work, she insisted.

“Conservatives can handle two shocking stories at the same time,” she said. “Both are equally unconstitutional and call into question the very president.”
This makes no sense, even for Bachmann. Why would the White House want to trade a 70 percent bogus scandal for a 70 percent real one? And if they did want to distract from Benghazi, there has to be a better way than manufacturing negative information about yourself. This is a bit like a child intentionally peeing himself to “distract” his classmates from the fact that his pants just fell down.


Roger Aronoff, the editor of the conservative media watchdog group Accuracy in the Media worried that the IRS Scandal “threatens to overshadow Benghazi.” Rush Limbaugh laid out a related “theorem” on Monday, adding a splash of Obamacare. The idea is that media, at the behest of the White House, is being overly aggressive on the IRS scandal because it wants to get it over with so that the IRS then can be left to implement Obamacare.“The media is never on our side,” Limbaugh said of the negative coverage of Obama.

He also downplayed the AP snooping, predicting that the media is so sycophantic that “in two weeks, this will be forgotten, they will have made up over this and it’s not going to be that big of a deal.” He added that he hopes he’s wrong, but doesn’t expect to be.


Why would Bachmann, Limbaugh, and Jones, who have never met an Obama conspiracy theory they didn’t like, pass up this one? Because the truth is way less sexy than fiction. When you’ve been claiming for years that Obama is willing to manipulate hurricane forecasts for political gain, or use Census records to round up political opponents, or deploy drones to kill journalists and political enemies, then asking a few dozen Tea Party groups from some extra paperwork is small potatoes.

And there’s little room to add value here — the dots are already connected, the mainstream media is on board, and the administration is taking action. The system seems to be working and you certainly don’t want to highlight that if your livelihood depends on convincing people the system is always rigged against them. What’s more, actual attention-grabbing scandals covered by the mainstream press may not be ideal, from a business perspective, for professional skeptics; if viewers can get coverage about them from regular news outlets, there’s less incentive for them to go to the conspiracists. Hence, it may be better for the Joneses and Limbaughs to publicly doubt the scandals’ veracity or relevance.

There’s also an intellectual poison pill that comes with the IRS and AP scandals. With Benghazi and Fast and Furious, conservatives insisted the media ignoring the controversies to protect Obama. But the media is all over these two newer scandals. “Why is the media hammering away at the IRS scandal?” Glenn Beck’s The Blaze asks, noting journalists were reluctant to make hay of out Benghazi at first.

Finally, it could also show that the media is doing its job by downplaying the mostly bogus Benghazi scandal and focusing on the mostly real IRS scandal, and that it’s willing to attack Obama when deserved. But it seems, ironically, they’d rather have the media ignore the scandals than pay attention to them, because at least that way it confirms their media bias narrative.
 
89Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 11:11
Interesting. So for some CT's, the theories get more legs the less that they are covered?
 
90Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 11:19
Sure, especially if you are in the business of opposition propaganda - whether the opposition happens to be competing political leadership or a competing media industry.
 
91Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 12:38
Yeah, that's a good point. The fact that there is an industry of people out there, making huge amounts of money off the arrogantly gullible, makes this a puppeteer exercise at times.
 
92Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 12:42
And high irony of terms like "sheeple".
 
93Boldwin
      ID: 294281510
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 13:47
MITH#88

It makes perfect sense. Hillary is at the center of the scandal. She is one of the world's foremost experts in how to manage a scandal and the media.

They are playing the 'use one scandal to displace the last one' strategy the Clintons lived and breathed.

Take very seriously just how much Obama will lean on their expertise in this area.

In this case the person who raised the issue of the IRS is a very tight personal friend of the administration of the IRS, I think it's the head.

I'll flesh that out later.

This is an interesting time for the admin to cultivate the image of cracking down on IRS power. Obamacare as it gets implimented vastly increases the power of the IRS and this will impact the psyche of the American people negatively.

There are plenty of unpopular and insignificant people in the IRS to throw under the bus. Countless numbers of them.
 
94Boldwin
      ID: 294281510
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 16:07
NRO says outright, that the question was planted.

Taking one for the team, as she would be high on the list of those to be thrown under the bus.
 
95Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Thu, May 23, 2013, 10:16
No tragedy is too great or unlikely to exploit.
Conspiracy talk show host Alex Jones, increasingly a favorite of conservative media for his extremely vocal support of gun rights, outed himself Tuesday as a tornado truther by telling a caller on his show, “Of course there’s weather weapons stuff going on.”

Jones, a longtime proponent of the idea that the U.S. government can manipulate and even produce weather systems like tornadoes and hurricanes, went on to say that if people saw helicopters or small aircraft in the area, then “you better bet your bottom dollar they did this.”

“But, who knows if they did?” he asked. “You know, that’s the thing. We don’t know.”
Who knows? I mean, yes of course bet your last dollar on it (or just spend it on a t-shirt from the merchandise page on my website) but, you know, who knows?
 
96Boldwin
      ID: 2254279
      Fri, Jun 07, 2013, 18:09
The 'plane' flying into the pentagon. The clip they tried to prevent you from seeing.
 
97Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, Jun 07, 2013, 18:26
Who is they? And why would "they" have tried to prevent me from seeing this clip? What is it you think it shows?
 
98Tree
      ID: 33547717
      Fri, Jun 07, 2013, 18:48
i think it shows that CNN and the rest of the MSM reported on something that is apparently a big ol' secret. even though it was on CNN. /sarcasm
 
99Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, Jun 07, 2013, 19:09
The primary argument appears to be that since no clearly discernible plane appears in the video, that no plane hit the pentagon.

If anyone besides Boldwin thinks this is proof of anything I'm happy to discuss but I think it pretty obviously requires an impressive leap to arrive at that notion.

Particularly because I'm not so sure that the light-gray blob that you see disappear and reappear from behind the highway overpass as it moves from left to right just before the explosion isn't the plane in the moment before it crashed into the building.
 
100Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Fri, Jun 07, 2013, 19:16
So despite all the eyewitness accounts, physical evidence, other video evidence--this is all they have?

 
101Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, Jun 07, 2013, 19:31
Well that and that in the confusion of that terrible morning, someone went and misreported the Pentagon explosion as a truck bomb.
 
102Boldwin
      ID: 1757723
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 00:14
MITH

Did you notice the plane flying into the building?

Me neither.
 
103Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 01:00
Of course I didn't. I don't even see the building, which is almost a mile off in the distance behind a massive highway overpass.

If I did see a plane fly into the pentagon from that vantage it could only have been faked - or it would have to occur after the overpass was removed. Are you saying you can see through it?

Me neither.

Why would anyone care to prevent me from seeing that?
 
104Boldwin
      ID: 3955585
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 07:12
Why would anyone care to prevent me from seeing that?

They actually did confiscate it. Why would you pretend they couldn't possibly have done something so ridiculous?

There was hardly a window mullion broken in the alleged 'plane smashes into building'. There wasn't a commercial airliner striking the pentagon. That's why.
 
105Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 10:26
They "confiscated" it because it is evidence. Law enforcement takes private surveillance footage of any crime they investigate.

I'm not "pretending" that the Bush Administration could or couldn't have done anything. "Could" or "couldn't" has nothing to do with it - I'm considering facts.

You think my political loyalty and fondness for W prevents me from seeing the full picture here?

Pretty sure I saw a lot of broken mullions.

What do you think happened to Flight 77 and all the people that were on it?

What sense could faking that attack possibly make?

Just apply a moment's worth critical thinking. You think 3 planes were hijacked but that it was necessary for them to fake a 4th hijacking?

Perhaps you believe the live video I personally watched of a plane flying into the WTC was doctored as it was being shot and transmitted around the world? As was all of the other news cameras focused on the WTC after the first plane hit? That the literally thousands of eyewitnesses were duped by their own lying eyes?

Why I had not considered such outside-the-box possibilities!

And again, why would anyone care to prevent me from seeing a video shot from a vantage where the pentagon was not even visible?
 
106biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 10:34

Now you are talking like the good little sheeple "they" prefer.
 
107Boldwin
      ID: 3955585
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 11:06
A long time ago I posted an extreme hi-res picture of the pentagon after the event. Sorry if you can't remember it accurately but the mullions came thru it like a champ. You could hardly fit a sheep thru the windows that actually did have broken mullions.

 
108Boldwin
      ID: 3955585
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 11:16
Perhaps you will remember Sarge's infamous 'switchblade plane' theory where despite flying forward at several hundred miles an hour, the wings retracted 'thwooop' back into the body of the plane so that just the fuselage could fit thru the sheep sized hole.

I'll always remember Sarge fondly for that one.
 
110Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 11:42
I remember the photo. I'm sure I could find it again if I looked hard enough. I remember much being made of the lack of damage that some thought the plane's wings should have caused the building.

I'm sure you're very confident in the depth of your knowledge and the processes of measuring the likely result of the lightweight frame and material of the wings of a 757 (including however much presser traveling at several hundred miles per hour exerts on the bolts that hold the wings to the fuselage) would have on a heavily reinforced bulletproof and blast-resistant structure such as the Pentagon.

Sorry, doesn't seem so absurd to me that those mullions might hold up better than what you see in a typical 6 story concrete building with a row of standard commercial Andersons lining each floor.

And for the record, while I've never counted the number of mullions left intact, I very specifically recall the photo did in fact show lesser damage to the building extending out from the central crater that seemed an appropriate length to be caused by the wings.

Enough of my saturday wasted on this.
 
111Boldwin
      ID: 3955585
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 11:52
I had a much better picture than this in the original thread, but I don't believe I can find my original.



With fascia damage this slight [compared to 2-300,000 pounds of commercial airliner at high speed], I want and expect to see the tapes that were confiscated.

I don't have a need for this part of the OVE [official version of events] to be wrong, all I'm insisting on is that it was allowed to happen, but hey, I just don't believe in magic mullions that survive airplane crashes. My curiosity isn't this easily satisfied.

I'll even grant, they had some amazing building materials, granite if I remember correctly, but there isn't a building material in the world that can explain those mullions in my estimation.
 
112Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 12:07
The left wing did not weigh 2-300,000 pounds.

 
113Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 12:10



 
114bibA
      ID: 54522612
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 13:10
Thanks mucho Baldwin. That flight 77 actually did not crash into the Pentagon is really good news.

My daughter is in the advertising business. She had been booked on that flight, but had changed her plans several weeks prior to the day of the events on 9-11. However, two of her co-workers were on it.

Now that Baldwin has shown that the plane actually did not crash into the Pentagon must mean that her friends are still alive.

Could you just let us know where they ended up? No one has seen hide nor hair of them since.
 
115Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 13:42
They are part of the conspiracy bibA.
 
116Tree
      ID: 564211423
      Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 18:13
they're just actors, of course.

in fact, i am sure if you look closely at the footage of the Boston Marathon bombings, your daughter's "friends" will be involved in that too.

i will say this again. Conspiracies are the new religion. much like the bible was used to explain things we didn't quite understand thousands of years ago, conspiracies are a way to grasp things today that we can't, or won't, make sense of.
 
117Boldwin
      ID: 4453598
      Sun, Jun 09, 2013, 09:39
Just show all the security cam tapes. Is that so much to ask?
 
118bibA
      ID: 54522612
      Sun, Jun 09, 2013, 14:20
OK - I can accept that if you say the plane did not fly into the Pentagon because you haven't seen video evidence, that it obviously didn't happen.

The question remains, what happened to the people who boarded the plane in D.C.?
 
119Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 11:00
So we have to have video evidence to believe something? The bible is going to need some serious rewriting. Or does that mean that Hollywood film crews are our new Gods?
 
120Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 12:39
And forget all those people who actually saw the thing fly into the building. Clearly they are all part of it as well.

I, for one, am tired of dancing the tune of the conspiracy theorists. I genuinely don't care for their changing definitions of "proof" or their doubts or their indecision masked as intelligence.
 
121Boldwin
      ID: 31541109
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 12:43
bibA

If you had been following the alternative news, you'd have seen a story very early on about a plane that had everyone herded off the plane [in Phil? if I remember right] and into a military hanger on 9/11 never to be heard from again. Why? They didn't say why. I don't buy actual stock in it, but the evidence at the time I first read it was by no means the worst I'd ever seen and the probability indicator on my internal estimator while still low, gradually and relentlessly creeps upward.

Not saying that story ties up all the questions and loose ends either, but hey, you asked.
 
122bibA
      ID: 54522612
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 12:57
So maybe "they" had the plane taken somewhere, maybe Philadelphia, where they did something with the it, removed the passengers, herded them into a hanger and either killed or imprisoned them, so that they could pretend to fly the plane into the Pentagon while they actually bombed it with explosives they had earlier planted.

I guess this would be encouraging news to the families of the passengers of flight 77, as it holds out hope that they are alive somewhere.
 
123Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 13:00
You just have to follow the "alternative" news, bibA. You know--the ones with hard hitting fictional pieces.
 
124Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 13:20
Layers of crap built on a foundation of crap.

What a sucker. A sucker for crap.
 
125Tree
      ID: 265361012
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 13:36
did you guys hear the moon landing was staged?
 
126Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 20:02
Alex Jones gets on the BBC.
 
127Boldwin
      ID: 25111019
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 20:54
bibA

It has occurred to me that a virtually untrained Yemeni who can't even land a plane can dodge an overpass and hit the first floor of the pentagon.

Maybe a radio controlled drone can tho.
 
128Boldwin
      ID: 25111019
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 21:00
Of course such an idea would never occur to our high minded best and brightest.
 
129Boldwin
      ID: 25111019
      Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 21:02
Don't be ridiculous.