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| Posted by: GO
- [120252515] Wed, May 15, 2013, 09:35
just want one place to keep track of these...
Gun activists designated last Saturday “Gun Appreciation Day” in an attempt to highlight their opposition to gun safety laws. The PR stunt proved to be more of an embarrassment, however, when 5 people were shot at 3 different gun shows on Gun Appreciation Day. On Friday afternoon, an Iowa gun dealer closed out the week by becoming the sixth person shot at a gun show. The man claims he was “showing off a .25 caliber pistol he thought was unloaded when he slid the action of the gun.” The gun was not unloaded, and a bullet went through his left palm. link |
| | | 1 | GO
ID: 120252515
Wed, May 15, 2013, 09:41
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5/15/13
link
Florida boy, 11, accidentally shot dead by 4-year-old, police say.
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| | | 3 | GO
ID: 120252515
Wed, May 15, 2013, 09:43
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A Tennessee woman was shot in the stomach by her 2-year-old child on Sunday. Rekia Kid was sleeping with the toddler and her three-week-old baby when the toddler discovered a Glock 9 mm stored underneath her pillow and discharged the weapon. Kid managed to get out of the house and crawl to a neighbor’s porch where she was found by the neighbor, who told local news “[s]he just kept screaming that she didn’t think she was going to make it, she didn’t think she was going to make it and to please please take care of my children.”
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Josephine G. Fanning was shot and killed Saturday at a Tennessee barbecue when a 4-year-old boy discharged a handgun owned by Fanning’s husband, Sheriff’s Deputy Daniel Fanning. Fanning had left the loaded gun “for just a moment” on the bed while he went to retrieve another weapon from a locked gun cabinet.
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A 6-year-old boy was accidentally shot by his 4-year-old playmate in a quiet residential New Jersey area yesterday. The victim later died of his wounds, with the victim’s uncle telling reporters covering the story “This never should have happened. It’s horrible.”
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A 3-year-old died of an accidental self-inflicted gun wound in South Carolina on Tuesday according after finding a gun in an apartment and discharging the weapon. No further details have been released at this time.
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| | | 6 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160
Wed, May 15, 2013, 23:27
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Do we get to keep a separate thread of accidental drownings, poisonings, auto accidents, accidental falls, fire related deaths, suffocation deaths, medical related accidents?
All kill more people than accidental firearm deaths.
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| | | 7 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, May 15, 2013, 23:45
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NO TRS, because nobody is denying their deadly status. Besides which, following that logic, we should make ownership of a nuclear device legal. More people have been killed by screwdrvers, than by nuclear explosions.
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| | | 8 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160
Wed, May 15, 2013, 23:55
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Who is denying that gun accidents occur? They just occur far less than many other accidental deaths. Life is dangerous sometimes.
Not sure how my question lead you to nuclear devices? Sounds pretty illogical.
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| | | 9 | Tree
ID: 564211423
Thu, May 16, 2013, 00:26
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Life is dangerous sometimes.
sure is.
and some people want to take measures to make it less dangerous.
others - like the NRA and some other gun advocates - absolutely want to make it more dangerous.
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| | | 10 | Frick
ID: 432501512
Thu, May 16, 2013, 08:03
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Let's be fair tree. While each of the accidents is sad, in the majority of them it wasn't the type of gun or the size of the magazine that led to the accident. It was improper safe keeping of the firearm.
If you want to say it was more dangerous because there are more guns out there? Maybe, but people who think that carrying a gun in public on a regular basis is a good idea are going to carry one, if they have 1 or 100.
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| | | 11 | Tree
ID: 564211423
Thu, May 16, 2013, 10:14
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It was improper safe keeping of the firearm.
or improper care.
and that's the point. it's too easy to get a gun, and people who aren't responsible enough to own a gun, can get one rather easily.
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| | | 15 | Tree
ID: 564211423
Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 18:08
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from the previous link: "Police say it's believed the visit was unannounced, which may explain why the gun was not secured with a child in the house."
that's really not a valid excuse. if you are a responsible gun owner, your gun is secured at all times.
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| | | 16 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 09:56
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More Americans on US soil were killed in the past 12 months by children with guns, than by terrorists.
But we dont need laws to regulate weaponry, just tighter immigration controls to keep "them" out.
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| | | 17 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, Jun 12, 2013, 10:22
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Child Killed Every Other Day By Negligent Gun Owner’s Gun
...why has the message not been clear? Why have gun owners simply ignored the daily drum beat of examples of poor gun ownership and continued to leave their guns unlocked? Why have gun owners decided by their actions that they have no need to be responsible, that “they” aren’t the problem.
Put more simply – why have gun owners answered the call to be the responsible gun owners that they say they are with case after case after case of negligent ownership that results in kids being killed at a rate of one every other day. Are these gun owners really that stupid or just so arrogant that they think that they could never, ever have this problem?
Part of the answer to the authors question, is the "someone else" syndrome. You know, "It wont happen to me, but to someone else". Problem with that mindset, to everyone else on the planet, YOU are 'someone else".
Just postulating here, but what if....what if we charged these negligent gun owners with murder, instead of sweeping it under the rug and saying "it was just an accident"? If we did that, would a few people stand up and take notice? Would a few more guns be properly secured, and a few less kids killed because of it?
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| | | 21 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 08:56
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frightened customer shoots and kills two restaurant workers?
yeah, more fkn guns on the streets, THATS what we need....
Law enforcement sources told the San Francisco Chronicle that detectives were investigating the possibility that one of the customers shot the employees by mistake because he had been scared by a third party.
The sources said that the suspects entered the restaurant wearing orange vests and then became frightened and ran to the freezer area. Employees that followed them were apparently shot by mistake.
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| | | 22 | Mith
ID: 412561115
Fri, Jul 05, 2013, 11:20
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Boy shot in head at Virginia 4th of July celebration Chesterfield County police say a child is in grave condition after being shot in the head by someone who apparently fired a gun into the air at a Fourth of July celebration. A friend of mine who planned to attend that event but had a change of plans says firing guns into the air is a tradition at this particular event.
I'm sure just about every one of those participants taking part in that tradition is regarded as a "responsible gun owner".
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| | | 23 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 10:10
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2 children a day killed in backyard pools...sampling of stories from the past 10 days.
Boy, 3, dies after being found in suburban pool
3-year-old girl drowns in Pasco pool
Child Taken to Hospital After Near Drowning At Hotel Pool
Boy dies after drowning in Newmarket pool
Two-year-old Sabine Parish girl found drowned in family pool
Child Drowns In Western Arkansas Swimming Pool
etc...etc...
...why has the message not been clear? Why have pool owners simply ignored the daily drum beat of examples of poor pool ownership? Why have pool owners decided by their actions that they have no need to be responsible, that “they” aren’t the problem.
Put more simply – why have pool owners answered the call to be the responsible pool owners that they say they are with case after case after case of negligent ownership that results in kids being killed at a rate of two every day. Are these pool owners really that stupid or just so arrogant that they think that they could never, ever have this problem?
Part of the answer to the authors question, is the "someone else" syndrome. You know, "It wont happen to me, but to someone else". Problem with that mindset, to everyone else on the planet, YOU are 'someone else".
Just postulating here, but what if....what if we charged these negligent pool owners with murder, instead of sweeping it under the rug and saying "it was just an accident"? If we did that, would a few people stand up and take notice? Would a few more pool be properly secured and supervised, and a few less kids killed because of it?
There are less than 10 million pools in the US compared to 300+ million guns. Pools kill more children than guns. An individual pool is many times more likely to kill an innocent child than a gun. Yet politics highlights gun deaths and ignores the dangers of pools. Life and freedom is sometimes dangerous.
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| | | 25 | GO
ID: 56631510
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 10:24
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We should ban pools I think.
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| | | 26 | Tree
ID: 395323014
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 10:44
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i like completely irrelevant trying to save face comparisons.
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| | | 27 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 10:55
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Why is it irrelevant? It is innocent children dieing. It is accidental child deaths that occur at a much higher rate than accidental child gun deaths. These accidental pool deaths occur 4x more often than accidental gun deaths with 30x less pools. Why is there not a huge political and media storm to ban pools?
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| | | 28 | biliruben
ID: 59551120
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 10:55
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I assume CTRS is recommending we pass regulations requiring 3 lifeguards at a given public location any time a gun is around. I could get behind that.
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| | | 29 | biliruben
ID: 59551120
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 10:57
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Since nobody here has suggesting banning guns, you are arguing with a wall.
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| | | 30 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 11:01
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Why is there not a huge media storm to charge pool owners with murder? Why is there not a national debate to better secure pools? Why is there not a national pool registry? Why is there not mandatory liability insurance? Why is there not a limit on the depth of backyard pools? etc...etc...
Are the kids that drown in backyard pools less important than children killed with guns?
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| | | 31 | Perm Dude
ID: 24625213
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 13:19
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Are you offering to go to bat for both?
Guns, of course, kill far, far more children each year than drowning in pools. Yet I haven't seen you offering up even a minimal level of safety requirements for guns. Why is that?
Surely you aren't advocating that we should solve *all* accidental children's deaths before you'll start worrying about the deaths of children through guns in this country?
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| | | 32 | Mith
ID: 29182720
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 13:44
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CTRS, you don't seem to understand the way the logic behind an analogy is supposed to work.
Backyard pools are already highly regulated in many (is it not most?) residential areas.
Parents whose children die in unsafely kept pools already do often get charged with crimes, usually some form of negligence, which I believe is what most parents of children who die because of their unsafely kept guns get charged with.
There's no widespread controversy and comparatively little media coverage because there is no constitutional argument for protecting the specific rights of pool owners. So local governments are free to propose and enact whatever pool safety restrictions they see fit, including outright bans in certain cases. And they do. And very few idiots go on TV and AM radio bitch about it causing the downfall of 'Murkuh.
Aside from your trouble with analogies, you seem to wildly misunderstand the point of this thread - which is that your typical American gun owner might not be quite as responsible as gun rights advocates constantly insist, and that gun ownership might just be an invitation to tragedy for even the more responsible owner.
This stuff you're implying about "huge media storms" to ban guns and charge their owners with murder and this case that guns are just like pool in some way relevant to the discussion is silly hyperbole.
And for the record, well under 25% of child drowning deaths are known to occur in a backyard swimming pool, so your whole premise on the danger of backyard pools relative to guns does not have even the virtue of being so much as accurate.
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| | | 33 | Mith
ID: 29182720
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 13:52
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Sloppy writing. I don't know how often parents are charged in either case, only that it happens and that from what I've seen and heard of, the charge is typically criminal negligence of some type.
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| | | 34 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 14:00
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Why no national debate there (pools) CTRS? Because guns (handguns specifically) were designed to kill things and swimming pools were not. (handguns, were designed SOLELY to kill people). Devices whose intent is harmful, needs be regulated.
No kids I know of, died via TNT last year. But you cant just go out and buy TNT. It's regulated.
Next irrelevant claim please.
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| | | 35 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 14:35
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"Guns, of course, kill far, far more children each year than drowning in pools."
If we are talking about the US this is simply wrong. Pools kill far more children than guns annually. Especially when you only look at accidental deaths.
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There is not already volumes of laws regarding gun ownership? Bet there are far more laws regarding gun ownership vs pool ownership.
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Do not really buy the argument that one is designed to kill and the other not. The fact is the one not designed to kill...percentage wise DOES kill more children.
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The point being made is there are MANY accidental deaths each and every year...and accidental gun deaths are not even in the top 5 causes. There are many things in our lives we take for granted that are statistically far more dangerous than guns. Using accidental gun deaths as the reason guns need to be more highly regulated does not seem to hold water...when many other less regulated (not constitutionally guaranteed) things cause more accidental deaths.
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| | | 36 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 14:39
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No CTRS, the point is, even the vast majority of gun owners, support expanded background checks. WHY, are you standing in opposition, of common sense processes which in turn would reduce, needless deaths? Why do you favor, people dying?
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| | | 37 | Perm Dude
ID: 24625213
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 15:36
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Pools kill far more children than guns annually
According to the CDC, on average for the last 3 years, 2289 children and teens die from guns.
According to the CPSC, 390 kids (children + teens) were killed, on average, per year between 2008 and 2010 from pool and spa related accidents.
Not a clear overlap (the years don't match exactly, for example, and gun deaths include all teens (18 + 19 YO's)). But the numbers aren't even close.
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| | | 38 | Tree
ID: 32649814
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 15:49
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If we are talking about the US this is simply wrong. Pools kill far more children than guns annually. Especially when you only look at accidental deaths.
where did this number come from? The NRA?
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| | | 39 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 16:00
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I was accounting for "accidental deaths" the theme of this thread.
I do not consider a 14-19 year old inner city gang banger being shot an accidental death (or really that tragic...when you join a gang getting shot is part of the job description).
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"expanded background checks. WHY, are you standing in opposition, of common sense processes which in turn would reduce, needless deaths?"
Show me data that shows expanded background checks would reduce needless gun deaths.
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Vast majority of gun deaths are very intentional and committed by non-law abiding which would not be effected much at all by background checks.
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| | | 40 | Frick
ID: 432501512
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 16:48
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Well, since the title of the thread is Accidental Shooting Archive it seems reasonable to only include accidental shootings.
According to the CDC the number of Accidental deaths from 0-14, in 2010, was 62 by firearms. You could argue that suicides could be included, there were 81 by firearms. There were 726 by drowning.
I only used the Under 1, 1-4, 5-14 age groups. Adding the 15-25 age groups still shows a higher number of drownings vs. accidental shootings. But the number of deaths suicides by firearms is drastically higher, 2000.
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| | | 41 | Tree
ID: 32649814
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 18:26
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the last two parts of 39 have been gone over repeatedly. that you choose not to accept them doesn't change much.
much of your argument here, again, falls under lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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| | | 42 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 11:19
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Tree...the actual DATA backs me up. No doubt we have debated the points endlessly the fact that real data shows criminals/non-law abiding are responsible for the vast majority of gun play in this country and you choose to ignore it is your problem. Criminals will access weapons even after relatively minor changes are made to background checks.
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| | | 43 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 11:37
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If the changes are so minor, why oppose them? Being that minor, would make them trivial to you.
Assume for a moment, I were a convicted felon. Under current law, I could buy via the internet or from private party, the GE Minigun;
link
Neither is currently compelled to perform a background check, and the minigun is grandfathered under current law. The proposed changes, would simply bring those transactions into line with sales by an FFL holder. It would reduce, the number of criminals with weapons. No intellectually honest way of arguing otherwise, since currently, a felon only needs buy the weapon privately, to avoid the check.
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| | | 44 | Tree
ID: 566911
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 12:06
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Criminals will access weapons even after relatively minor changes are made to background checks.
if the changes are minor, why are you opposed to them? if you're a responsible, law-abiding citizen, what issues do you have with closing gun show loop holes? what issues do you have with OTHER minor changes that might actually make gun owners who aren't responsible, BECOME responsible?
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| | | 46 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 12:48
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Police were initially unsure if the man would be charged with a crime, but have since decided to arrest him on suspicion of aggravated assault.
you gotta be kidding me? How about "assault with intent"?
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| | | 47 | GO
ID: 56631510
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 13:12
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If the shoe were on the other foot... he would have just thrown the wrong girlfriend in the pool. And that would have been ok. Cause it would then just be a pool party.
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| | | 48 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 14:07
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That is not an accident...that is criminal. (Texas GF shooting)
sarge...you have to be kidding me?...really grasping. You can't buy a f-ing GE mini-gun without a background check and a class-III weapons license period. No one is private selling GE mini guns...you need a class III license to own and you cannot private sale automatic weapons.
You also obviously do not understand the background check process. If you buy a gun from a federally licensed gun dealer (internet, gun show, classified ad, etc...) that dealer is required to background check period...no exclusions. The only sales that are excluded are private sales...and the data shows conclusively that criminals/felons generally acquire guns through straw purchasers, theft, black market. Certainly some do acquire guns through private sales but putting more restrictions on private sales would not stop one felon intent on getting a firearm from actually obtaining a firearm.
I am not going to support a bill that only adds bureaucratic hoops to the law abiding and does NOTHING to prevent criminals from obtaining firearms. I would certainly support a bill that adds mandatory sentencing for gun crimes, felons with guns, straw purchasing...you know...things that actually effect the bad guys. Restrictions on the law abiding does nothing to the source of the gun problems in this country.
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| | | 49 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 14:25
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wanna bet? That system, is grandfathered, and can be bought online, no background check. It can be bought privately, no background check. THAT, is what you favor, when you oppose expanded background checks.
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| | | 50 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 14:29
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link
not cheap, maybe 400k. But thats because the old ones, are grandfathered, and can be bought/sold privately.
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| | | 51 | Perm Dude
ID: 24625213
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 14:41
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#45: As was mentioned on FB: "Only in Texas can you shoot your GF while aiming at the EX and the authorities would be unsure if you would be charged with a crime."
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| | | 52 | Tree
ID: 566911
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 15:15
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That is not an accident...that is criminal.
actually. he accidentally shot his current girlfriend. hence, accident.
If you buy a gun from a federally licensed gun dealer (internet, gun show, classified ad, etc...) that dealer is required to background check period...no exclusions. The only sales that are excluded are private sales...and the data shows conclusively that criminals/felons generally acquire guns through straw purchasers,
1. so are you opposed to laws the require background checks for straw purchases.
2. and sorry, you're way wrong on the gun show laws. WAY wrong. the gun show loophole is so commonly known that it not only gets discussed on the Wikipedia entry for Gun Shows, but that also that terrorists have advocated using it to obtain guns.
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| | | 53 | bibA
ID: 54522612
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 15:39
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actually. he accidentally shot his current girlfriend. hence, accident.
What point are you attempting to take here? Something wrong with your reasoning if you really do believe this qualifies as "an accident", and not a criminal act.
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| | | 54 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 15:54
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Anywhere but TX bibA, and you would be right.
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| | | 55 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 21:48
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You are worried about background checks for a gun that costs a half million dollars? Someone that can afford and wants that gun will get the gun.
My point stands adding bureaucratic nonsense for the law abiding that does not really stop anyone who is intent on acquiring a firearm from actually obtaining a firearm is a waste of time/resources. It is simply deluded to think that guns could be restricted enough that we could prevent a criminal (someone who should not have a gun) from obtaining a gun. Do you really believe the access to guns could be restricted enough that it would make a meaningful impact on criminal access to firearms? I would be for spending those resources incarcerating people who break existing laws. Locking up criminals has a direct positive effect on crime/murder rates.
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| | | 56 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 21:52
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Locking up criminals has a direct positive effect on crime/murder rates.
wanna bet?
We have THE highest incarceration rate per capita, on the planet.
If what you say is true, then we should have THE lowest crime rate on the planet.
Oh wait.....not even close.
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| | | 57 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 22:14
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so are you opposed to laws the require background checks for straw purchases.
? That is the point of a straw purchase...you use someone who passes a background check to buy firearms.
you're way wrong on the gun show laws. WAY wrong
The "gun show loophole" is...private sellers show up at gun shows with firearms and sell them in a private sale to other people attending the gun show. These are not people who are official sellers at gun shows...it is people selling out of their trunk. ALL firearms sold through licensed dealers require background checks period. It will be nearly impossible (costly) to control private sales unless somehow the 300+ million guns in private hands are registered (not going to happen). Some states restrict private sales at gun shows, probably a better option than trying to figure out a way to background check every private sale.
I am not 100% opposed to new regulations if they make sense and there is some measurable impact...but personally I lean towards increased enforcement of existing laws and increased penalties for those who break laws.
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| | | 58 | Perm Dude
ID: 24625213
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 22:26
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The proposal isn't to stop private sales. It is to stop sales at gun shows from being called "private sales."
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| | | 59 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 22:32
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We have the most criminals in the world. We have the most laws that lock up people. Yet we have the most freedom in the world....and allow people to make their own bad choices. We have the largest drug trade in the world. We have the most gangs of any first world country. We have a lot of criminals that should be locked up...so what are you saying??? making more gun restrictions will somehow make less criminals? guns are the cause of criminals?
It is sort of common sense...people who do not follow laws, are violent, are criminals, are insane, etc...when you lock up these people for longer periods, make the consequences more severe for breaking laws...does have a positive impact. These violent predators are not on the streets to commit more crime. There is irrefutable data that shows the vast majority of murder/violent crime is committed by a very small percent of career violent predators.
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| | | 60 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 22:35
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So, why have any laws at all? If you oppose expanded background checks, because criminals will just break that law anyway; why have any laws at all?
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| | | 61 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 22:50
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Some level of law is necessary to have guidance for the law abiding. I am of the opinion that laws that focus on severe consequences for those who commit violent crime, murder...laws that focus on the violent predators are most effective.
When considering new laws/restrictions cost vs potential impact.
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| | | 62 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 23:27
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I am of the opinion that laws that focus on severe consequences...
Then you believe, that criminals ponder the potential repercussions of their actions, before they commit their crimes? Else, punishments would have no deterrent effect at all. Which of course, anyone who has worked LE even for one day, knows that isnt the case.
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| | | 63 | Tree
ID: 355162211
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 01:44
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58 aptly explained the gun show loophole and corrected the inaccuracies of 57...
Care to respond?
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| | | 64 | GO
ID: 56631510
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 08:50
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I wonder if Aaron Hernandez contemplated his consequences of a future in jail when he was committing multiple murders.
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| | | 65 | Tree
ID: 395323014
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 10:13
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Wife shoots off-duty Irving police officer
this wasn't accidental. this happened last night.
the woman who shot her husband and later committed suicide, was a friend of mine. her husband, is a friend of mine. i never saw him without a smile on his face.
they have children.
she's a lawyer. he's a cop. they are law-abiding citizens. she's had some mental health issues lately and was on medications.
she bought her gun legally, and recently. and had been taking shooting lessons.
i wonder if there had been better mental health checks in place for LAW ABIDING GUN PURCHASERS, if this could have been avoided.
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| | | 66 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 10:18
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Tree...EVERY GUN SOLD BY A FEDERALLY LICENSED GUN DEALER REQUIRES A BACKGROUND CHECK PERIOD...fact. At a gun show...in the back of the dealers trunk...over the internet...every sale...no exclusions.
When a private citizen (non dealer) shows up with guns at a gun show and then sells them out of his trunk this is considered a private sale. Gun shows do not allow private sellers to rent space or officially sell firearms. The gun show loophole are real private sales...though the private seller is taking advantage of the fact that there will be a lot of buyers at gun shows.
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| | | 67 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 10:29
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Sarge...As for criminals ignoring consequences. If that is the case at least they will be locked up for longer after they commit crimes.
and...you are wrong. Much of New York's success at lowering gun crimes is attributed to mandatory sentencing and very strict enforcement of current gun laws. Many criminals certainly understand consequences/risk. In Chicago if a criminal/gang member is caught with a gun they are unlucky if they spend more than a night in jail...thus all thugs in this city carry...the potential consequences are simply not that great. In NYC the thugs have stopped carrying because of mandatory sentencing. Consequences do change behavior.
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| | | 68 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 10:30
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re 66...FFL HOLDERS ACCOUNT FOR LESS THAN 60% OF ALL GUN SALES.....PERIOD.
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| | | 70 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 10:41
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and I do not for one second, buy into the notion that criminals ponder the consequences before acting.
Over a million attempts to buy weapons were thwarted by existing background check laws. Unfortunately, all that is needed then, is for that person to go to a gunshow in any of the 34 states where ALL gun show registrants are not required to hold an FFL, and they can buy whatever from a non FFL holder, w/o a background check. Or, they can buy it over the internet w/o a check or, they can buy it from John Smith private citizen. The expanded checks you oppose, would close all of those loopholes AND as part of that bill, was something addressing straw-purchasers. But no...we wouldnt want to strengthen the laws any....just leave them weak as puppy piss and then claim they are sufficient.
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| | | 71 | Tree
ID: 395323014
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 10:42
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re 66 - you are choosing to continue to explain the issue, rather than address it.
so i'll ask again - are you in favor of laws to close Gun Show loopholes?
sounds to me like you'd rather dance around it, then answer it.
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| | | 72 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 10:46
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link
meant to add that to the above
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| | | 73 | bibA
ID: 54522612
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 12:12
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66 - sounds like a pretty general question asking for a specific answer. Why don't you address the specific loopholes you are concerned with, and give him an opportunity to address them individually.
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| | | 74 | Perm Dude
ID: 24625213
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 12:18
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When a private citizen (non dealer) shows up with guns at a gun show and then sells them out of his trunk this is considered a private sale
It is also considered a private sale when he is inside at the gun show, selling guns off a rack or table. That is the nature of the gun show loophole.
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| | | 75 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 12:28
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Only 16 states, require a vendor at gun shows, to hold an FFL or execute a background check anyway. 34, have no such requirement, hence the gunshow loophole.
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| | | 76 | Tree
ID: 31601012
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 13:00
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re 73 - part of the problem is that he has incorret information. by claiming that the "gun show loophole" isn't really a big deal, he's showing a large absence in his knowledge base.
various posts in this thread, from various people, address that.
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| | | 77 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 13:14
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OK, this article says 33 states do not require vendors at gun shows to hold an FFL. One I read not long ago, but can not lay my hands on, said 34. Still, 33 is plenty of opening, to constitute a valid loophole.
link
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| | | 78 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 16:03
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Ok...so it seems 17 or 18 states have closed the "gun show loophole" on their own. No reason the other 33 states can't follow if they are so inclined.
But again...you guys highly underestimate criminals. Expanded background checks, closing the gun show loophole is not going to stop one criminal from obtaining a firearm. It is deluded to think that guns can be legal for the law abiding and any restriction/law will prevent criminals from obtaining a firearm. It is a waste of time and resources. Consequences work...most criminals certainly do understand consequences and again even if they don't locking up them longer makes everyone safer.
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| | | 79 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 16:28
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No we are not underestimating criminals. You are underestimating our intelligence. Why do you lock your car door? Not to prevent auto theft, but to make it take longer, to make it more difficult. Why have expanded background checks? For the same friggin reason.
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| | | 80 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 16:53
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Why are you opposed to mandatory sentencing or stiffer sentencing for gun crimes?
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| | | 81 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 17:00
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where did I say I was opposed to stiffer gun crimes sentencing? When, did I say anything along those lines?
oh thats right, I never have. Next pointless deflection in...3.....2......
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| | | 82 | Tree
ID: 9661016
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 17:06
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78 again avoids answering the question on whether or not you are in favor of passing laws to close the Gun Show Loophole.
Expanded background checks, closing the gun show loophole is not going to stop one criminal from obtaining a firearm.
this statement speaks to an incredible ignorance, as Sarge explains in 79.
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| | | 83 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 17:41
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You can buy an AK-47 w/o ID, but cant get a beer w/o one...
link
THAT, is why we need universal background checks
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| | | 84 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 09:53
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I stand by the point that closing gun show loopholes, expanded background checks do little/nothing to really stop criminals from obtaining firearms. It is expensive and resource intensive to go down these paths and think that money/resources are better spent on stricter enforcement/sentencing of existing gun laws.
Like I said countless times...I am not opposed to all new regulations. If states want to close gun show loopholes they are free to do that if it is an important issue in their state. I am almost always going to oppose growing the federal government. Personally I think our government is already far out of control and overreaching.
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| | | 85 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 09:55
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Stronger sentencing? You mean, more prisons. I ask again...do you lock your car doors? The answer to that question, and "Do you support expanded background checks", is identical, for any person not spouting off partisan hack BS.
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| | | 86 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 10:10
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No it is not identical. It costs me nothing to lock my car door. Does it really stop someone intent on getting in my car...no. But the point is it costs nothing for me to lock my car door so it is a worthwhile. It will likely cost many millions/billions to implement expanded background checks. We have finite resources and I believe spending those resources on locking up those who break existing gun laws is a more effective use of those resources. Maybe that means more prisons or maybe that means this country legalizes soft drugs like marijuana and creates a bunch of prison vacancies to fill with violent criminals.
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| | | 87 | Tree
ID: 395323014
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 10:28
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how does strong sentencing work as a deterrent??? the death penalty and life imprisonment don't seem to deter folks from murder.
your theory that "Criminals are criminals" is in absolute contradiction with believing harsher sentences will make a difference.
yes, some folks will go out of their way to get guns, but with stronger regulations, many won't.
in places where seat belts or helmets are required, people where them, because it's easier to wear them, than to not to.
in place where they are not required, people opt not to wear them.
this is a really simple premise, and what many of our laws are based on - make something more of a pain in the ass to do, and more people will be deterred from doing it.
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| | | 88 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 10:37
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The additional value in expanding background checks, is that then there would be an onus on the seller to comply. As it stands now, sell an AK-47 in a Taco Bell parking lot, and everything is cool. With expanded background checks, the criminal will still try and buy the weapon, but now the seller commits a crime if he/she sells w/o conducting the check. IOW, fewer sellers, fewer opportunities to obtain the weapons. It really is quite simple.
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| | | 89 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 10:56
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I think guns are a far different category than seat belts. Seat belt laws are aimed at the law abiding/common man. Statistically the person that uses a gun unlawfully is not a law abiding person and statistically most times a repeat offender.
Stronger sentencing certainly does work. It has been credited with less gun troubles in NYC. Interviews with criminals/gang members in NYC show that many are not carrying guns because of fear of the stricter consequences. Criminals do understand consequences or the lack of consequences. and...even if they do not when you lock up people for longer who ignore consequences they are out of the public for longer and not able to commit additional crime. It is really not a difficult concept and is effective. People who use guns unlawfully are not going to be deterred by minor changes to background checks. Statistically repeat offenders are responsible for a majority of violent crime and murder...does it not make sense that if you lock up these repeat offenders longer for each new offense there are less on the street to commit more crime?
Not the only answer...maybe as a society we should invest more resources in chemical dependency treatment for those that are locked up for crime as drug dependency is also a huge factor in repeat offenses.
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| | | 90 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 11:44
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we already incarcerate a larger percentage of our population, than does any other 1st world country on the planet. How about we make it more difficult to GET the guns?
Oddly enough, the right seems to think banning abortion will stop abortions, banning drugs will stop drugs, but enhancing background checks would have no impact on guns.
Stupid is as stupid does I guess.
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| | | 91 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 11:48
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In a country with 300+ million unregistered guns I am afraid it will never be very difficult for someone intent on acquiring a gun to acquire a gun.
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| | | 92 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 11:56
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doesnt mean we should turn our heads and not make it as thorough a quest as possible. Right now, someone under a restraining order can go to Taco Bell and buy an AK-47. Good to know, you are OK with that. Hope like fk, it aint your sister/cousin etc, who put out the restraining order.
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| | | 93 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 12:08
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I am just not clueless and realize that same criminal with a restraining order if he does not get a gun from a taco bell parking lot...will have a straw purchaser purchase the gun or will get it off the streets/black market. End result the criminal will get a gun. I would rather spend the resources on locking up that career violent criminal for a longer time.
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| | | 94 | Tree
ID: 395323014
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 12:28
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Seat belt laws are aimed at the law abiding/common man.
bull$hit. it's aimed at the person driving a car, most of whom are not law abiding. i dare say a significant percentage of drivers are not law abiding. based on my daily 15 mile commute, i'd estimate 85 percent of drivers break the law.
Statistically the person that uses a gun unlawfully is not a law abiding person and statistically most times a repeat offender.
i would say 100 percent of people use a gun unlawfully are not law abiding citizens.
if you are breaking the law, you are not law abiding.
In a country with 300+ million unregistered guns I am afraid it will never be very difficult for someone intent on acquiring a gun to acquire a gun.
we have millions of unregistered cars in this country. should we stop automobile registration. we have millions of unlicensed drivers. should we stop licensing drivers?
I would rather spend the resources on locking up that career violent criminal for a longer time.
which doesn't solve the problem.
but if you make it tougher for the guy selling it to get a gun, you may very well put a dent into the problem.
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| | | 95 | boikin
ID: 430211013
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 13:11
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we have millions of unregistered cars in this country. should we stop automobile registration.
automobile registration is tax not safety regulation.
I also think cars a statistically more dangerous then guns...with that said it would be nice if gun use courses were more common/required.
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| | | 96 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 13:51
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93 translated:
deterrence doesn't work, unless its our idea.
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| | | 97 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 16:48
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one other element to universal background checks:
Suddenly, every firearms transaction becomes traceable. Every firearm used in every crime, it becomes a back traceable fact, as to where that firearm has been. Seeing a name pop up too often for your comfort? Now you have cause to put them under surveillance.
You want stiffer penalties? How about making guns traceable? THAT, gives LE a potent gddmn tool.
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| | | 98 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 17:45
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Well, now Zimmerman is t-totally fcked. The judge is allowing the lesser charge of manslaughter and the entire Zimmerman defense is predicated on plain old fashioned self-defense. Problem for Zimmerman? Self defense is not an allowed defense against a manslaughter charge in FL. So, the state got to prosecute, and the defendant did not get to defend. Nice....this, is called vengeance, not justice.
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| | | 99 | Pancho Villa
ID: 40610217
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 21:29
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the entire Zimmerman defense is predicated on plain old fashioned self-defense.
No, this is a new definition of self defense he's trying to sell.
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| | | 100 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 23:01
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sorry...got this in the wrong thread...and no, his defense was predicated on traditional, standard, self defense.
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| | | 101 | Pancho Villa
ID: 40610217
Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 23:46
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Traditional standard self defense:
You pull a gun or knife on me, I respond with gun or knife.
New definition of self defense:
I, unarmed, punch you in the nose, you shoot me dead.
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| | | 102 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 04:00
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not applicable, not the case, not the right thread.
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| | | 103 | Seattle Zen
ID: 4811181319
Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 11:01
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Zimmerman was totally screwed the moment he murdered the unarmed 17 year old kid...
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| | | 104 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 11:46
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if you have evidence of that, prolly should have shared it with FL. Cause they sure as hell didnt have evidence to support that statement.
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| | | 105 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 20:22
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back on topic:
Officials: Man accidentally shot 2-year-old girl
TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) - Officials in Pima County say a man was arrested after he accidentally fired a bullet through a wall and struck his 2-year-old niece.
The Pima County Sheriff's Department says the girl was shot in the leg while she was in the living room of the home Saturday, but that her injury wasn't threatening her life.
Richard Moreno, 23, was booked on suspicion of aggravated assault.
Investigators say Moreno fled from the home where the shooting occurred but later turned himself in.
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| | | 106 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 12:08
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GOP says" Oh you are on the terror watch list? Go ahead and buy some guns. You have that 2nd Amendment right after all."
A proposal to ban the sale of firearms to individuals on the FBI’s terrorist watch list was defeated by House Republicans on Wednesday.
Reps. Nita Lowey (D-NY) and David Price (D-NC) offered an amendment to the Commerce, Justice, Science (CJS) Appropriations bill that would have given the U.S. Department of Justice authority to block suspected terrorists from purchasing firearms and explosives.
“Terrorists are knowingly exploiting our laws,” Lowey said, citing American-born al Qaeda spokesman Adam Gadahn.
I dont wanna hear another gddmn word out of the GOP, re national security, Benghazi, or DOJ gun running programs. They just lost that right.
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| | | 107 | boikin
ID: 430211013
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 12:54
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Being on watch list does not make you guilty of anything, you don't give up your rights just because the FBI thinks you might do something. The whole purpose of 2nd amendment was specifically to allow people on watch lists to have guns.
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| | | 108 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 13:57
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BS. "The whole purpose was to specifically allow people on watch lists to have guns." BULL SHIT.
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| | | 109 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 13:58
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and FTR, yes it does mean you lose some rights. You lose air travel, you get put off cruise ships where they happen to be when it is discovered you are on a watch list, you cant buy a car, you cant finance a damn thing.
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| | | 110 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 14:06
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I think the problem for me is the word "suspected."
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| | | 111 | Khahan
ID: 39432178
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 14:24
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Rights and priveledges are 2 different things sarge. And while I recognize that even rights (like the right to bear arms) can be taken away in certain circumstances I do have a problem with this proposal.
The RTBA can be taken away from convicted felons and those with diagnosed mental illness. In both cases there is hard, concrete evidence of a breach of some kind. There has been due process in both, whether in the form of a court trial or confirmed medical diagnosis.
There is no such due process with the current terrorist watch list. A government agency with no monitoring and final say in the matter decides if you go on the list. Once on, its up to them to decide you can come off. There is no due process. There is no way you can get this into the courts and get yourself off.
So now we have handed the government a way to conveniently deny any random citizen the right to bear arms.
Could this be a good tool down the road to help keep gun sales to terrorists restricted? Sure. But right now its too much of an infringement on too many American's Constitutional rights. How many?
Ask
the ACLU. (I find myself once again happy they are around. Its an odd feeling).
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| | | 112 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 14:30
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Right. Let someone on that watch list buy a gun, enter a building and start shooting. Then I'll be there to remind you, you thought is was perfectly fine to let him buy a gun.
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| | | 113 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 14:33
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Until one commits a crime, yes, it is perfectly fine. That's the nature of how we treat people in this country--they have rights until the end of a transparent legal process takes them away.
Given the huge problems with "no fly lists" and other lists of "suspects" in this country, you should be glad of it.
And, to be certain of my point: Anyone who is a real danger should not be a "suspected terrorist" but should be arrested and charged with a crime.
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| | | 114 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 14:37
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Like Zimmerman? One needs sufficient evidence, before executing an arrest. Almost every person ever arrested, was a suspect first.
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| | | 115 | Perm Dude
ID: 41661813
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 14:57
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One needs sufficient evidence, before executing an arrest.
Yes, that's right. And even when arrested the suspect still enjoys rights until convicted of an actual crime.
The problem isn't that criminals were once suspects. It is that non-criminals are.
The ACLU is spot-on to fight non-criminals losing rights as though there is no difference between being a "suspect" and being a "criminal."
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| | | 116 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 149171815
Thu, Jul 18, 2013, 15:04
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I would be in favor of some sort of alert being generated if someone on terrorist suspect list buys or attempts to buy a weapon. But being on a suspect list without being convicted of anything and causing the person to lose constitutional rights does not seem very American.
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| | | 133 | Tree
ID: 317371816
Sun, Sep 08, 2013, 21:59
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Colorado teen shot and killed in prank gone wrong
Premila Lal jumped out of a closet as a harmless joke to surprise a family friend, her father says. But the noise startled the friend, who grabbed a gun and shot her.
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| | | 134 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Mon, Sep 09, 2013, 00:15
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Iowa issuing gun permits to the legally blind
This strikes me, as a demand for court action. The law as currently written, would make it a civil rights violation to deny the permit application because of any disability. Poorly written laws, sometimes require seemingly absurd compliance, to bring their problem to the forefront.(At least I hope that's the driving force behind this. If not, this action will contribute to several postings in this thread, hence its appearance here to begin with.)
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| | | 135 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Thu, Sep 19, 2013, 21:04
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2 Concealed Carry Holders Kill Each Other In Road Rage Incident
Two men are dead after pulling guns on each other during a road rage incident on Wednesday night.
Police said the dispute began when one car was tailgating another in the Michigan town of Ionia, population 11,400.
W/O CCPs, their weapons would have been in their vehicles trunks.
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| | | 140 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 18:19
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the little girl in 139? Her father? Arrested for involuntary manslaughter AND possession of a firearm by a convicted felon.
no, we dont need expanded background checks. Nope.
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| | | 142 | Khahan
Donor
ID: 39432178
Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 15:15
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Right from the article in 141, this quote speaks volumes:
"People have the right to bear arms, and with that comes great responsibility," Orange County sheriff's Chief Deputy Clint Hodgkinson told KFDM-TV of Beaumont. "If someone, somehow, puts a firearm in a place where a child is able to get that weapon, you've committed an offense."
"Sometimes, it takes something like this — as tragic as it is — for people to reflect on those things, and these are the opportunities you take ... to say, 'Look, what could we have done?'" Hodgkinson said.
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| | | 143 | Arminius
ID: 6942244
Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 05:49
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Vital Signs: Unintentional Injury Deaths Among Persons Aged 0–19 Years — United States, 2000–2009. (Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report - MMWR) - CDC
Interesting charts listing Motor Vehicle, Suffocation, Drowning, Poisoning, Other Transportation, Fire/Burn, Fall and All Other.
All other (mechanisms aggregated in table): cut or pierced (W25–W29, W45, W46), unintentional firearm W32–W34), machinery (W24, W30–W31), natural and environmental (W42–W43, W53–W64, W92–W99, X20–X39, X51–X57), overexertion (X50), struck by or against (W20–W22, W50–W52), other specified (W23, W35–W41, W44, W49, W85–W91, Y85, X58,Y86), and unspecified (X59).
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| | | 144 | GO
ID: 59918108
Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 08:58
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Boy shot because police thought he had a gun....
This one doesn't really fit the mold of a real gun in the hands of someone not trained but does illustrate that even trained people make mistakes. And it was an accidental shooting of sorts.
I thought there was a law that toy guns had to be like neon or something - does that not apply to bb guns?
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| | | 145 | boikin
ID: 430211013
Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 14:24
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I am pretty sure it does not as bb guns are still real weapons.
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| | | 146 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 22:54
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from the article in 143:
Improvements in seat belt use, child safety seat and booster seat use, licensing requirements, vehicle design, the road environment, and reductions in alcohol-impaired driving likely contributed to the decline in motor vehicle traffic–related deaths...
So, legislation can have a clear and positive impact.
Although unintentional injury death rates are declining, findings reported here demonstrate the need to take further action.
Pretty much, what we have been saying in this thread, all along.
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| | | 149 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 16:16
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Oops! I shot my gun in WalMart and/or the train station and didn't even notice! GunFAIL XLV
Other unique stories worthy of special note this week: A man cleaning his loaded gun in a Texas hotel room accidentally shot through the wall and killed a woman in the next room, right in front of her husband and teenage son. A customer with a gun in his car accidentally shot a mechanic at a Missouri car dealership when he dropped his car off for service and went to move the weapon. A woman waiting for a SEPTA train in Philadelphia was accidentally shot in the face by a man rummaging through a bag in which he kept his gun. Among all the train noise, he didn't even hear the shot, and was seen on surveillance tapes calmly shouldering his bag and leaving on the next train. An armored car driver left his gun behind in the bathroom of a school in Colorado (and is not even the first armored car driver to do this in a school this year). And the pastor of a Texas church, shooting at a skunk in his backyard, accidentally shot through his fence and hit a neighbor.
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| | | 150 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 12:56
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not accidental, but guns should not be on the premises, where alcohol is served...period.
After attending a George Jones tribute concert with a group of friends, and doing a bit of bar hopping earlier in the evening, Mills found himself down at the Pit and Barrell around closing time. He was friends with the bar owner Chris Ferrell, who he knew wouldn’t have a problem with a bit of after-hours hanging out. Especially with a celebrity like Mills, who had toured with the Wayne Mills Band, Jamey Johnson, Blake Shelton and Taylor Hicks.
At about 4:00 in the morning, the likely intoxicated Mills lit up a cigarette in a non-smoking section of the bar. The small group of people Ferrell allowed in after hours didn’t seem to mind — but Ferrell (also likely intoxicated), did. He and Mills got into a heated argument, and like a scene from a Wild West movie, the rest of the patrons cleared out.
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| | | 153 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 15:24
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16 yr old shot in chest, dies near Indy
Court documents state that the two were in his house in nearby Noblesville along with two other men when McDaniel asked Peters if she wanted to shoot a semiautomatic handgun he was holding. When she refused McDaniel “dropped the magazine from the gun, pointed it at Aubrey, took the safety off, and pulled the trigger,” allegedly believing the weapon was not loaded. Peters died at a local hospital from a gunshot to the chest.
Wouldn't want to inconvenience those "responsible, law abiding gun owners" now would we? Much less inconvenient, to have to bury your 16 yr old daughter.
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| | | 155 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Tue, Dec 24, 2013, 13:57
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Father shoots and kills 14 yr old daughter...thought she was a burglar
merry Christmas eh?
Oh and in CO? B&E is now a DP crime, without need for things like an arrest, a trial or a conviction.
The statute is particularly broad because it authorizes deadly force not just for fear of great bodily harm or death, but anytime a person “has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property.” Castle doctrine laws that empower civilians with guns to take the law into their own hands have been associated with many tragedies, in cases involving those seeking help after a car accident, an elderly man with Alzheimer’s who wandered onto another’s property, and the fatal shooting of a 20-year-old who walked onto a neighbor’s porch to escape a potential police bust of underaged drinking.
The Colorado law gave criminal immunity to a homeowner who shot a teen intruder as he tried to flee through the front door of the home, even though he was no longer threat.
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| | | 157 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 11:05
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Stray bullet kills 5 yr old in Omaha, as she sat eatining breakfast.
Police in Omaha have vowed to find the person who fired the bullet that killed a 5-year-old girl while she was eating breakfast this week.
According to the Omaha World-Herald, Payton Benson was eating breakfast Wednesday morning when a bullet fired from a block away came through the wall of her home. She was taken to Alegent Creighton Medical Center in critical condition where she later died.
Benson is the daughter of City Councilman Ben Gray’s nephew.
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| | | 159 | Frick
ID: 432501512
Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 14:17
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IndyStar
Another not accidental and it occurred a mile from my house. It will be interesting to see what they find out about the gun. Per the police statement they are in the process of tracing the gun.
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| | | 165 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Fri, Mar 07, 2014, 00:50
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from the nr of dead kids age 8 and under PD, apparently, quite a few gun owners do.
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| | | 167 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Tue, Mar 25, 2014, 13:33
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Not sure if this should go here. Florida is apparently dismayed that the reality of the application of their Stand Your Ground laws breaks down along racial lines. The response of one GOP lawmaker? Restrict media access to the data!
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| | | 168 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 14:53
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"Chart of the Day"
The reader's response is spot-on.
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| | | 172 | Boldwin
ID: 33329520
Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 21:31
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Chicago, murder capital of America's heartland, leader in the campaign to confiscate our guns, shoots it's favorite cause.
Here’s What Happened to Crime in Chicago After Illinois Finally Passed Concealed Carry Law.
On Tuesday, the Chicago Police Department announced that the city experienced its lowest murder rate since 1958 in the first quarter of 2014.
Further, there were reportedly 90 fewer shootings and 119 fewer shooting victims compared to last year. There have also been 222 fewer shootings and 292 fewer shooting victims compared to the first quarter in 2012.
All crime is down 25 percent from 2013 and police say they have confiscated over 1,300 illegal guns in the last three months. I just love the way reality always proves liberals 'solutions' to be counterproductive.
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| | | 174 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 23:28
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re 172...didnt Chicago also experience one of its longest and worst cold spells? Casue and affect B....cause and affect.
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| | | 175 | Boldwin
ID: 2932374
Mon, Apr 07, 2014, 05:23
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Weeeell what cause are you suggesting? Maybe the criminals are suddenly so afraid of Chicago's newest shortest yakuza member that they gave up shooting each other for sport?
My bet is that the cause was the same thing that has reduced murder and violence everywhere it has been tried.
Like in North Carolina where violent crime went down 42% when CC was implemented.
Of course liberals have trouble connecting the cause-and-effect dots. I guess 42% miiiight be a random fluctuation.
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| | | 176 | GO
ID: 292502110
Mon, Apr 07, 2014, 09:18
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Did NYC's numbers go up or down since the Bloomberg law?
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| | | 177 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Mon, Apr 07, 2014, 13:39
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Violent crime in general has been dropping like a stone for some time now, although we can't forget that there was a blip in Chicago's gun violence in 2012 which not only makes the "before" picture look worse, but, from the article: Now it’s entirely too soon to conclude that the concealed carry law is partly responsible for Chicago’s across-the-board drop in the crime.
This is, of course, the opposite point being put forth in #172, somewhat un-ironically.
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| | | 178 | Boldwin
ID: 2932374
Mon, Apr 07, 2014, 23:03
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42% drop
Lowest since 1958.
Don't talk to me about a blip. Just because the author bends over backwards to be fair and refuses to call for CC everywhere just yet...don't even pretend the conclusion is anything other than obvious.
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| | | 179 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Tue, Apr 08, 2014, 00:30
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oh we have our obvious conclusion B. You wont like it much, but we HAVE, our obvious conclusion.
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| | | 180 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Tue, Apr 08, 2014, 10:11
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Now Baldwin is arguing, publicly, with his own source. Nice.
Things were at least quiet before.
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| | | 181 | Boldwin
ID: 4337818
Wed, Apr 09, 2014, 12:42
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OMG. I don't mind the author admitting that just because it's always worked before, there isn't necessarily proof beyond every shred of possibility for other explanations. I'm taking issue with people who can't see the obvious writing on the wall.
Hanging your defense on that disclaimer is like using the anchor of the Titanic as a life-preserver.
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| | | 183 | sarge33rd
ID: 593111219
Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 16:21
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FLORIDA, setting the stage for legalized mass shootings
Presently, the gun monster’s reared its ugly head in the form of an NRA-backed bill in the statehouse—HB 209—that seeks to allow anyone lacking a concealed carry permit to go ahead and ignore that whole permit thing during “riots” and other emergencies.
Now imagine Hurricane Katrina or New York during the 9/11 attacks, but with every scared-out-of-their-wits Homo sapien carrying a piece and wanting you to say hello to their little friend? And what if World War Z should find Florida? OK, if The Zombie Apocalypse greets us, I’ll accept Wayne LaPierre’s call for all guns on deck. Otherwise? Sheer lunacy.
And just what constitutes an emergency that would put this law into effect? Nobody knows, least of all the sponsor of the bill , State Rep. Heather Fitzhagen (R-Fort Myers). She was unable to provide any actual specifics about the law’s potential application when queried about her own legislation.
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| | | 185 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Mon, May 12, 2014, 12:47
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Struggling a bit with this story's believability. One has to wonder if one of the other kids had something to do with this. I am sure the authorities will sort it out, though they may not share the truth. An avoidable tragedy in any case.
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| | | 186 | sarge33rd
ID: 593111219
Mon, May 12, 2014, 13:36
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my bad FTR....the child is not dead, "just" suffered a self inflicted GSW to the abdomen, and survived.
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| | | 193 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Mon, May 19, 2014, 13:15
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hmm is there a plausible conspiracy theory?
1) It happened in a Walmart
2) Walmart is an Arkansas company
3) Clinton is from Arkansas (I think we are on to something here)
4) The democrats want to take my gun
5) They staged this to bring attention to accidental gun firings
6) They are trying to make all gun owners look like Barney Fife
7) Bean was talking about Barney Fife
8) Bean wont stand on my side of the argument
8) Bean is the commissioner of the Fantasy baseball league
9) Bean wants more parity in the league
10) I am getting sleepy
11) My eyelids are getting heavy
12) Yes Bean I believe that my Babe Ruth for your Mendoza is a fair trade
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| | | 196 | sarge33rd
ID: 8830618
Sat, Sep 06, 2014, 19:39
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Idaho allows teachers to carry concealed in the classroom, 1st week of school, College Prof shoots himself in the foot
This summer, Idaho’s legislature voted to allow teachers to bring firearms into classrooms in an attempt to dissuade school shootings. It was less than a week into this school year and an Idaho professor already accidentally shot himself in the foot in front of his students. The law doesn’t appear to be making things safer.
According to police, students at Idaho State University got a terrifying surprise when their professor, who was legally allowed to carry a concealed weapon as per the new law, accidentally discharged his weapon while it was in his pocket. Thankfully, no students were injured. Unfortunately for the professor, the bullet traveled straight into his foot. He was taken to the hospital and later released.
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| | | 197 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 18:01
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More from Idaho
A woman was accidentally shot and killed at a Walmart store in northern Idaho on Tuesday when her 2-year-old son pulled a loaded handgun from her purse that then went off, a county sheriff said.
The 29-year-old woman was shopping at a Walmart in Hayden, Idaho, with the toddler seated in her shopping cart when the incident occurred, Kootenai County Sheriff Ben Wolfinger said in a written statement.
Hayden. Former home of the Aryan Nation. Where moms need a loaded gun when shopping at Walmart.
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| | | 198 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Wed, Dec 31, 2014, 17:51
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Only white ones though. A black man picks up a bb-gun from the shelf, the cops will shoot him.
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| | | 199 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Thu, Jan 01, 2015, 12:36
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Please read what wrote sarge. I read all cops are white and all victims of accidental shooting are black. Talk about racist, now those are certainly racist comments. But those are OK as long as they are targeted at white people, right?
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| | | 200 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Thu, Jan 01, 2015, 12:55
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No Bean, it reflects what has been happening. It was a black man in a WalMart, picked up a BB gun, and the cops shot him to death.
That isnt racist to point out, its factual and accurate.
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| | | 201 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Thu, Jan 01, 2015, 13:31
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I read all cops are white and all victims of accidental shooting are black
I read that blacks are more likely to be profiled, which is true to an extent. However, a white guy dressed as a biker or wannabe gangsta is likely to be profiled similarly.
My best buddy for the last couple years is a black guy. We golf 4-5 times a week and when the snow falls, we head south a couple times for a few days of golf in St George, Mesquite or Vegas. We'll be in Mesquite next week for 3 days, hopefully we can hit some of Cliven Bundy's illegally grazing cattle with some golf balls.
Pat is in his mid-50s, so maybe it's not a good comparison, but he carries himself with dignity and grace, more so than most of my white friends. In all our travels, I've never once seen him be the object of racism at any level. I'm not saying it's never happened, but his appearance and demeanor is so non-threatening, that I tend to forget he's black, and he never makes it an issue. I tend to think stores, police, people in general are quick to profile not necessarily so much by skin color, but by overall appearance and attitude. A white kid with the ball cap on sideways, jeans worn halfway down the butt, grabbing his crotch as he walks, is more likely to be profiled than a black kid dressed like Carlton on Fresh Prince of Bel Air. When I was a kid going through the hippie scene, with my long hair, tie-dye shirt and bell bottoms, I was the subject of profiling in many ways as well. I still know guys around my age with long hair, tie-dye shirts and bell bottoms, but they're limited in the kind of work they've been able to get through the years.
The point is that people make choices. If you're going to dress and act like a thug, you'll probably be treated like a thug, even if you're only making a fashion statement. Regardless of skin color, if you carry yourself within the norms of mainstream society, you probably won't have many problems.
Pat
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| | | 202 | GO
ID: 344132921
Thu, Jan 01, 2015, 13:40
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And then we have a white woman... in body armor!... driving around shooting at everything, aiming guys clearly at cops... and they DON'T shoot at her?! She must have been dressed classy so they didn't stereotype her.
double standard
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| | | 204 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Fri, Jan 02, 2015, 15:17
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<202> If they had shot her, what would your reaction have been?
The decision to shoot or not shoot belongs to the officer, who puts his/her life in danger, and is duti-bound to defend the citizenry. They are not robo-cops, they are living breathing thinking individuals with all the worries of daily life you have, but are dealing with criminals and nut jobs daily and are empowered to use deadly force when THEY deem it necessary.
It is absurd to me that you focus on the response or lack there of from the cop. The real issue is this nut job, no matter what race creed sex or color she was.
When you decide that you are willing to do the job, that's when you can judge and expect to not be ignored. Are there some sub-standard cops?, absolutely, just as there are sub-standard cooks, actors, musicians, social workers, politicians and fantasy sports players etc.
There is no trend of increased racial profiling, the cops aren't the bad guys, we aren't entering a new martial-law era in ths country. Quit smoking that stuff, it's making you paranoid, lazy and confused. And quit confusing hyped up Jerry Springer like entertainment with the news.
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| | | 205 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Fri, Jan 02, 2015, 15:29
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<203> So, Jerry Springer, the article specifically says that there was only one shot fired, and that the report of a second shot was in error, but you place this as your headline?
Truth is not important, as long as the cop is guilty before the investigation, right?
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| | | 206 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 10:46
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That story has been edited Bean. Look at the top. the content was changed, the morning of Jan 2nd and I posted the link on Jan 1.
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| | | 207 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 12:04
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That's kinda my point sarge. We are so quick to judge those who have zero choice about being quick to judge. For most I would say "Try working in a life or death profession before you put your judgemental stamp on those that do". I would have expected you to fully appreciate that.
You put your life on the line, you have a right to protect it...that can not be negotiable. Either we are entrusting our cops or we are not, but we cannot allow the perceived error of one to diminish the integrity of the whole.
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| | | 208 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 23:12
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I'm not diminishing the whole. I'm pointing out, that there are too many people with guns, and yes, some of those people wear a uniform. Its simply reality Bean.
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| | | 209 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 23:38
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I appreciate that you would like to point out the risk that guns pose in our society, particularly in urban environments. However with the latest dialogue on the whole Ferguson fiasco, as well as other notable deaths on both sides of the aisle, it seemed to me that to point at this one gun killing out of all the gun killings we have weekly in this country, had a purpose beyond just pointing out how guns can kill.
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| | | 210 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 01:22
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nope....just to demonstrate that even those who are "professionals", can fck up when firearms are entered into the equation.
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| | | 211 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 01:23
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more to the point, that fking up WITH firearms, has repercussions so far beyond those of fcking up w/o firearms, that maybe we need consider the true cost involved here.
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| | | 212 | Mith
ID: 3692387
Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 08:01
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but we cannot allow the perceived error of one to diminish the integrity of the whole.
The problem with the "integrity" of LEOs in America has nothing to do with "perceived errors".
with the latest dialogue on the whole Ferguson fiasco, as well as other notable deaths on both sides of the aisle, it seemed to me that to point at this one gun killing out of all the gun killings we have weekly in this country, had a purpose beyond just pointing out how guns can kill.
I have no idea why you would think that. It was a story about an accidental shooting that went into a year-and-a-half old thread about accidental shootings, titled "Accidental Shooting Archive".
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| | | 213 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 10:55
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If it were possible to take the guns out of the hands of criminals while allowing law abiding citizens to keep theirs you'd have a solution to all of the unnecessary deaths that the right to bear arms has wrought. I have never seen a viable transition plan presented, just a call to end the madness.
Let's face it, when it comes to disarming the citizenry, everyone will fight to be the last one to disarm and insist the other guy gives up his first.
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| | | 214 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 20:27
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FALSE GDDMN ALLEGATION which I am sick to fkn death of.
NOBODY is trying to disarm the citizenry. Get off that strawman argument already.
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| | | 215 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 20:42
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Liberals have already done exactly that wherever they could.
In Australia the wrath of Canberra comes down on you with jackboots and flashbangs if you so much as order a slingshot over the internet and that is the literal truth, not hyperbole.
In England weapons as innocuous as beltbuckle knives and those colonial walking canes with the concealed points, blowguns...it's just ridiculous. Physical self-defense is outlawed basically. The courts are draconian in outlawing acts of simple self-defense you would consider undeniable human rights.
Anyone who tells you American gun control groups are any friendlier to your right to self-defense and the RTBA, is either dreaming, or deliberately lying to you.
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| | | 216 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 00:39
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<214> If your aim is not to disarm the citizenry, then perhaps you should not point your weapon in that direction.
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| | | 218 | Mith
ID: 3692387
Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 08:05
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213 Let's face it, when it comes to disarming the citizenry blah blah blah
Seriously WTF are you talking about?
215 Anyone who tells you American gun control groups are any friendlier to your right to self-defense and the RTBA, is either dreaming, or deliberately lying to you.
Anyone who tells you that gun control in America is gaining ground by any reasonable measure either has a victim complex or is trying to give you one so that he can convince you to buy another gun.
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| | | 219 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 10:00
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Two, modern day American politicians have disarmed US citizenry:
1) St Reagan
2) St Palin
Get off it already.
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| | | 221 | Mith
ID: 3692387
Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 10:14
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I don't I understand where 219 is coming from.
Disarmed?
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| | | 222 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 11:48
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Palin disarmed the Alaska State Militia. (Yes, this link is from a leftwing rag, but it is quoting the Alaska Daily News in the article, when then Gov Palin, disbanded/disarmed the Alasska State Defense Force, ie volunteer militia)
if the 2nd Amendment would apply to ANYTHING, it would have applied to an organized militia
Between the Mulford Act Reagan signed as Gov, the F1986 Firearms Owners Protection Act he signed as President (which banned the acquisition of fully automatic weapons after the law went into affect), his support of teh Brady Bill and his 1994 urging for Congress to ban all assault rifles...yes, I include him as "disarming".
Point being, our local RWNJs repeated insistence that "libruls are comin fer yur gunz", is both hogwash and historically inaccurate.
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| | | 223 | Mith
ID: 3692387
Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 12:49
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Interesting, wasn't familiar with the 1986 Firearms Owners Protection Act or Palin's militia history.
A quick rundown of federal gun laws and the presidents who signed them:
1934 National Firearms Act - FDR
1968 Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act - LBJ
Gun Control Act of 1968 - LBJ
1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act - Reagan
1988 Undetectable Firearms Act - Bush41
1990 Gun-Free School Zones Act - Bush41
1993 Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act - Clinton
1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban - Clinton
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| | | 224 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 15:08
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Yeah, I just thought he was talking about their disarming smiles.
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| | | 225 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 03:46
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If not to disarm the American citizenry, then precisely what is your aim?
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| | | 226 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 12:01
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Disarmament in the Wild West was checking your gun with the Sheriff when you rode into town and picking it up when you left.
Disarmament in the Nuclear Age was treaties including foreign oversight of the weaponry. Very litle trust there.
Tricky business in any case.
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| | | 227 | Mith
ID: 3692387
Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 12:44
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Actually in the period you call the Wild West, hand gun bans were enacted in several states, including (iirc) Kentucky and South Carolina.
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| | | 228 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 13:21
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So, for those who still kept their hand guns despite the law, how was that reconciled?
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| | | 230 | Mith
ID: 8018814
Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 15:22
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I have no idea, tho I'm not sure of the point, or your track in this discussion.
GO started this thread so I guess you should ask him what his aim is.
I appreciate the effort because it forces us to confront the inherent danger of firearms, especially in the hands of inexperienced people.
And I think this is worthwhile (as opposed to pointing out the inherent danger in, say, welding torches) because for several decades now, the gun lobby has romanticized firearms and sold them to the public as not just a useful or crucial tool in the proper hands but a status symbol of Americanism and individualist ideology, and even worse, as something that unquestionably makes the average or below average person and his/her family immediately and exponentially more "safe" by merely possessing it.
The explosion of "good guys with guns" has led to more gun owners who don't properly respect the weapon than the NRA and the corporations they have richly served would ever care to think about.
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| | | 231 | GO
ID: 344132921
Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 16:54
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I started this thread to keep a rolling summary of gun accidents that are so quickly and easily forgotten.
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| | | 232 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 18:22
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To what purpose and to what end?
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| | | 233 | Seattle Zen
ID: 576301411
Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 18:28
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Much like the Vietnam War Memorial in DC, a long list of the names and dates of untimely deaths is a sobering reminder.
This is not a thread for arguing the pros and cons of guns, there are other threads for that.
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| | | 234 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 18:33
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<230> BTW I concur with the concern, but like I said a few posts ago, I have never seen anything but alarm over the proliferation of guns in the hands of American citizens. What I said back in <213> was I have never seen a viable transition plan presented, just a call to end the madness. Twenty posts later and nobody has attempted to changed my mind. Guess there are no persuasive arguments.
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| | | 235 | Mith
ID: 231150292
Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 05:48
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I think the solution is self-evident. The gun lobby and industry needs to show some responsibility of it's own and stop using political propaganda and especially fear propaganda to sell firearms, both as a product and an idea.
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| | | 236 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 10:38
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regardless, SZ in 233 is spot on. This thread, aint the place.
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| | | 237 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 13:19
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<231> So, why would you label a link "double standard" when your innocent purpose is just honoring those who have died needlessly. Do I really look that stupid to you?
<233> With the exception of your racist comments in 198, I might buy that.
For both of you, quit pretending your racist purpose is somehow a plea for defending the defenseless. It's transparent.
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| | | 238 | GO
ID: 344132921
Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 15:34
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I didn't say I was honoring anybody. Its to keep a tidy list of all these needless deaths due to guns. Cause its impossible to just find a list in one spot of all these ridiculous deaths. But just rolling through all the links here its pretty incredible. And depressing.
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| | | 239 | bibA
ID: 24043919
Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 20:43
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Say what? Where do you get that Seattle Zen is racist?
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| | | 240 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 21:12
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MITH 218: 215 Anyone who tells you American gun control groups are any friendlier to your right to self-defense and the RTBA, is either dreaming, or deliberately lying to you.
Anyone who tells you that gun control in America is gaining ground by any reasonable measure either has a victim complex or is trying to give you one so that he can convince you to buy another gun. Misdirection. I never claimed gun-grabbers are succeeding. I do however know exactly how totalitarian their goals are. Exactly the goal that Sarge says they aren't.
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| | | 241 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 21:23
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beginning to think BEAN as a candidate for a block button as well. If racism in his mind is recounting factually accurate news accounts; then there really is much left to say to him, is there?
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| | | 243 | Mith
ID: 3692387
Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 08:12
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A woman in Fayetteville, N.C. allegedly shot her husband in the chest when he came home to surprise her with breakfastPolice said Tiffany Segule, 27, shot her husband, Zia Segule, 28, after he returned home to surprise her and set off their home's alarm system, the station reported.
She had returned to bed after her husband left for work and thought there was an intruder, according to police. She fired a shot through her bedroom door, authorities told the TV station.
The bullet hit her husband in the chest, but police told WTVD that he was able to walk and talk after being shot. He was released from the hospital hours after the incident.
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| | | 246 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Sun, Jan 11, 2015, 02:24
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based on what the article presents; I'd call it a clean shoot. That, assuming the article is factually accurate in its description of what transpired.
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| | | 248 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Sun, Jan 11, 2015, 20:33
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Mississippi Cop Shoots Roommate In The Head While Showing Off His New Gun
Officials with the Rankin County Sheriff’s Department told the Clarion-Ledger that the off-duty cop, Zachary Jason Creel had just purchased a new revolver and was ‘showing it off.’ He told police ‘the weapon discharged’ as he was taking it out of his holster to show his now-hospitalized roommate.
Really? It just "went off", all by itself? Isnt that common claim that they DONT do?
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| | | 249 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Tue, Jan 13, 2015, 10:24
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Groggy Louisiana man adjusts pants and fatally shoots friend sleeping on couch next to him
A Louisiana man was charged with negligent homicide over the weekend after he accidentally shot and killed his friend who was sleeping nearby.
The Advocate reported that 19-year-old Jawan Lloyd Billy was sleeping on the same couch as 20-year-old Demarcus Rheams in a Baton Rouge home on Saturday.
A police report said that Billy “attempted to adjust” his pants, causing the gun to discharge. Rheams, who was also waking up, was struck once in the chest.
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| | | 251 | Khahan
ID: 290121412
Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 13:12
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250 - they're both idiots. Why would the gun store keep a loaded weapon AND hand it over to a customer without first checking to see if it was loaded? Despite this, why wouldn't the customer who is accustomed to and trained in firearm safety being a cop, check that first thing?
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| | | 252 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 16:52
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People make mistakes. I'm not sure if gun owners and purchasers make more mistakes than average or less, but they do make them.
Guns are notoriously unforgiving to error.
Maybe we should regulate them to either:
1. Decrease the chances of deadly consequence when error happens (keep your gun in a safe, and wake up safe after the bender), or
2. Decrease ownership among people more likely to make a mistake (by either training them, or limiting ownership to avoid them), or
3. Both.
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| | | 256 | biliruben
ID: 28420307
Thu, Jan 22, 2015, 08:31
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Mental Illness. But pretty hilarious.
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| | | 257 | gurudan
ID: 206112913
Thu, Jan 22, 2015, 12:09
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I've lived in NC for 3 years, and people are always getting accidently shot. two weeks ago my neighbor, a deputy sheriff who has lived in this neighborhood for 15 days, had 2 rounds come thru his wall and lodge in the dining room wall while his wife was in that room.two teenagers were apprehended and stated that "they didn't know houses had been built there." no charges were filed and they paid the damages.i'm 65 years old and own 8 guns. I've never in my life needed one to protect myself. but, I know of 20 times when I needed someone else not to have one. those were the occasions when someone I knew was shot and killed by one.
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| | | 258 | GO
ID: 344132921
Thu, Jan 22, 2015, 15:44
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gurudan... I think that about sums it up - the likelihood someone actually needs to protect themselves is pretty small and is outweighed by all these needless accidents. Its just not worth it. I don't know how to solve it though, cause I don't think most people have a problem with responsible owners having hunting rifles or a handgun (just no automatic weapons), but there will always be accidents no matter how safe you try to be.
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| | | 260 | C.SuperFreak
ID: 190472217
Thu, Jan 22, 2015, 18:52
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A funny take on Gun Control.
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| | | 265 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Sun, Feb 01, 2015, 09:18
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Now *that's* gun control.
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| | | 268 | Mith
ID: 8018814
Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 08:37
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Reserving this space for the inevitable accidential shooting coming soon to St. Petersburg, FL. Moms and dads are extremely upset after their 21-year-old neighbor, Joseph Carannate, told them he built a homemade gun range.
“I don't want to hurt myself or any neighbors. I don't want to hurt anybody. I just want to use this as my enjoyment,” Carannate told News Channel 8. “I don't want to have to go to a gun range, when I can just go outside my door.”
Carannate wants to fire his 9mm in his St. Petersburg yard, which happens to be just feet away from children. According to St. Petersburg Police, legally he's allowed to do it.
This is what happens when you have an insanely rabid gun culture that inspires such ridiculous things as state laws that prohibit local governments from restricting gun rights in any way.
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| | | 269 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 11:26
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No setback requirements for a gun range? WTF?
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| | | 270 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 12:04
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Local issue right? Scared to go to Florida now? Try living there. Is it any better in Orlando? If not, guess I wont be going to Disneyland soon.
Why cant I just live in a safe suburb with like minded people without being accused of being some ungodly monster by someone who hasn't figured it all out yet?
How did we run out of money to institutionalize the nutjobs?
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| | | 272 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 10:16
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There seems to be a pattern here lately. The problem is that too many people were having demon children 3 years ago. We need a federal investigation into this phenomena and a congressional sub-committee.
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| | | 273 | biliruben
ID: 81382416
Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 10:19
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| | | 274 | biliruben
ID: 81382416
Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 10:21
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Demons.
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| | | 275 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 10:40
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re 270:
How did we run out of money to institutionalize the nutjobs?
That was St Ronnie Raygun. who dismantled Carters mental health initiatives.
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| | | 276 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 10:45
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Perhaps we should all invest in gun manufacturing stock to hedge against the impending apocalypse.
Any wonder some cops are getting nervous, any wonder why some cities are increasing the armament of their police forces so they aren't overwhelmed by angry citizens? How about bombs, got any stats on bombs?
How do we disarm the citizenry without inciting them? I'm as concerned about those 3 year olds, as I am the adults that act like 3 year olds, they aren't afraid to shoot.
And what about those nut jobs? We need to institutionalize the nutjobs, anyone got a good way to profile them?
Its all enough to make you want to stay in your home, and not go house to house for Haloween. Thank god for cable, video games and the internet. Play 60. F*** it I'm moving to the country and getting away from all you nutjobs....can i get internet there? hehehe
So, I was in Vegas this weekend, some people started talking about how polite Austrailians, Brits and Canadiens are. I told them its not that those guys are polite, its that we are such a$$holes. We are all supposed to act like that...is it the music?
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| | | 277 | Mith
ID: 8018814
Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 11:49
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I have no interest in attempting to disarm the citizenry.
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| | | 278 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 12:22
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We are all supposed to act like that...is it the music?
No, its FOX and MSNBC
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| | | 279 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 12:25
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I dont see a path to peace without it. However, I dont see a way to accomplish it either.
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| | | 280 | Mith
ID: 8018814
Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 15:04
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Portland, OR Early Tuesday morning, Portland Police were called by a man who reported that a gunshot had come through the wall from a neighbor’s apartment.
The report was received shortly after 1:00 a.m. from a man who said he was awakened by a gunshot in his neighbors apartment and that the neighbor was now knocking on his door.
When police arrived, they were told that the couple who are new gun owners had practiced safely handling their new gun and that the woman was attempting to put a trigger lock on the gun when it discharged. She said that she was not aware that the chamber should not have a round in it when the lock was put on.
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| | | 281 | C.SuperFreak
ID: 391101821
Wed, Feb 18, 2015, 22:20
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Woman killed by her own booby trap.
Michigan woman was trying to adjust her bra holster when she shot herself in the face, authorities said.
Christina Bond, 55, was repositioning the handgun inside her brassiere when she looked down and fired a round into her eye, the Kalamazoo Gazette reported Wednesday.
"She was having trouble adjusting her bra holster, couldn't get it to fit the way she wanted it to," said St. Joseph Public Safety Director Mark Clapp.
"She was looking down at it and accidentally discharged the weapon," he said.
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| | | 291 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 21:49
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7 stages of gun violence
The writer, is a retired Navy Master Chief.
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| | | 292 | Khahan
ID: 56542210
Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 11:04
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That was a good read Sarge. Pretty spot on description of what we go thru after these events.
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| | | 293 | Boldwin
ID: 49572022
Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 22:24
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Disarmed law-abiding people and "gun-free-zones" attract, enable and embolden criminals, murderers, crime sprees and bullies.
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| | | 294 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Fri, Jun 26, 2015, 08:41
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lulz
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| | | 298 | Khahan
ID: 54152322
Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 20:42
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Family of 5 murdered in a knife attack.
Its not about guns. It never was. Its about human beings. Vilifying guns takes the spotlight off the real problem - people.
With that said Sarge has outlined in other threads what he thinks are reasonable measures for gun controls. From what I remember, I happen to agree with all of them.
But that doesn't mean these kinds of events will go away.
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| | | 299 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 10:06
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of course they won't go away.
but they will be reduced.
there is a significantly lower chance of mass killings with knives, as opposed to guns.
and this is an exceptional case - this is two brothers killing their parents and siblings. while not unique, it's definitely in the outlier realm.
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| | | 300 | Khahan
ID: 34255168
Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 18:34
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You don't get dismiss it as an outlier. They are ALL outliers to normal human behavior. Mass killings are abnormal behavior. We would be better served focusing energy, time, effort and other resources on the cause of the problem rather than how the problem is carried out.
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| | | 301 | Boldwin
ID: 49572022
Sun, Aug 09, 2015, 16:04
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Dismiss the outliers [or the gun control] and everything's fine.
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| | | 302 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 20:44
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hey, look, another lie by our resident Christian.
i wonder how your messiah feels about your perpetual dishonesty, and your lack of interest in the truth.
the above meme is so easily debunked (beginning with the US being third in murders), that i can't believe any idiot would actually post it and believe it.
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| | | 303 | Boldwin
ID: 49572022
Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 23:31
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To Fisk, one has to actually do the work.
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| | | 304 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 10:08
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exactly.
do some work, and quit posting lies. then again, it's probably quit presumptuous to expect you to be honest, or do research, or god forbid, do both.
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