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| Posted by: Bean
- [5292191] Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 14:10
Link.
It would be awesome if we can see justice served in this whole thing. Some very interesting and revealing items, that are unfortunately politically incorrect to point out:
Sunday Aug. 10 A candlelight vigil to honor Brown later turns violent. More than a dozen businesses are vandalized and looted. More than 30 people are arrested and two police officers suffered injuries, police said.
Friday Aug. 15 Noon – An attorney for Dorian Johnson, who is an eyewitness interviewed by law enforcement, says that Dorian Johnson and Brown took part in the convenience store robbery prior to the shooting.
My take is a lone cop who is apprehending two suspects of a crime in a crime infested neighborhood that has no respect for law feels endangered and possibly over reacts. The events that followed demonstrate that his fears were well founded. Racial tension is a reality, who started it is not important. That ALL take responsibility for their actions is important. |
| | | 1 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 14:48
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the police officer who shot Brown 8 times was unaware of the earlier theft.
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| | | 2 | bibA
ID: 204511510
Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 16:20
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Was it a theft, or a robbery? Big difference.
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| | | 3 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 16:26
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I took something from a convenience store.
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| | | 4 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 16:27
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The video made it look more like shop-lifting where he pushed the owner away when confronted.
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| | | 5 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 16:29
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And why would it make a difference?
The cop shot him 8 times with no knowledge that he had been shop lifting.
This is just a distraction to trump up justification for blowing the kid away.
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| | | 6 | Khahan
ID: 10757269
Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 17:06
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And stating, "trump the justification for blowing the kid away" is just a distraction from what actions Michael Brown was taking when the cop fired.
Here's the items I've found to be fact from following this for the past few weeks. Some may agree or disagree on the relevance:
1. Michael Brown was involved in a robbery of a convenience store not long before this incident
2. Michael Brown and another person walking down the middle of the street when a lone cop asked them move out of the street.
3. After the cop pulled down the road he got a radio notification of the robbery and felt the 2 people he just talked to about walking in the street fit the description so he went back
4. There was some kind of physical altercation at this point where the cop was physically assaulted either in his car or pushed back into his car. He suffered facial injuries in this altercation though I have not been able to get a true description (I've heard everything from a bruise to a broken eyesocket though I've seen confirmation the broken orbital was false info)
5. Michael Brown and the other person were walking way
6. Michael Brown was shot 6 times in the front.
7. No entry wounds to his back indicating he was facing the cop, not running away as the initial report from Dorien suggested.
8. There was a bullet that entered his arm, exited his arm and hit his chest.
#7 and #8 are the biggest bits of info we have in establishing that the story given by early eye witnesses are complete bunk and people ranting in support based on those eye witnesses need to step back.
He was facing on the cop not running away. And if he had his arms up, pleading for his life, how did a single bullet exit his arm and hit his chest? The coroners report confirmed a bullet did this.
There is also a video of 2 people watching the aftermath and talking about what they saw. I forgot the exact statement made but it also destroyed any credibility to the initial witness statement that brown was surrendering, running away and/or had his hands up.
On the flip side, just because the witness reports painting Brown as a complete angel, innocent of anything other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time have been proven true, there is no physical evidence supporting the cop was justified in deadly force.
I think we have to wait for the grand jury in that.
For argument's sake, lets say Brown did act aggressively and inappropriately when re-questioned by the cop. That in and of itself is not justification for shooting him. We need to know the degree of action.
This reminds me a LOT of the Trayvon Martin case in that we have bits of information from either side, but the truth of what really happened or why is missing. And those few seconds are the telling details to really determine justification for the force the cop used.
We may never know or we may get it from the grand jury.
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| | | 7 | biliruben
ID: 37792616
Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 17:12
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I had read 3 wasn't true.
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| | | 8 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 18:44
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The big difference between Martin and Brown is that in Martin's case, his shooter was playing at being a police officer. In Brown's case, it was an actual officer.
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| | | 9 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 00:54
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<3 & 7> You bragging, or confessing bili?
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| | | 10 | Khahan
ID: 16341313
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 01:16
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Bili- I hadn't read anything yet discounting that. Most accounts have the officer pulling away then re-engaging the 2 in some way so it would at least make sense.
and PD, yes I do understand the difference in the background. I was just pointing out that there may reach a point in time where without a credible witness we wont really know what actions Brown and Wilson took that led to Wilson pulling and firing his revolver. Just like with the Trayvon Case we are missing that bit of info from any credible source that led to a gun being pulled.
Its a real shame Dorian Johnson lied - and not only lied but made such a commotion about his version that when the facts we do know were spelled it, his credibility was destroyed. He may be the only one who can shed a bit of truth on what happened. But no matter what he says, who would believe him at this point?
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| | | 11 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 01:21
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Well, I think the officer still has yet to say anything, officially, and nothing yet from the store itself. So I think we've got lots of new information to come.
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| | | 12 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 02:06
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To the credit of many conservatives, once the "eye socket" story was shown to be bogus, they dropped it quickly and quietly. But it is worth taking a peek into how irresponsible "journalists" ran with the story in the first place because they were apparently desperate for facts to fill their fact-challenged narrative of the story.
Anatomy of a FOX News Smear
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| | | 13 | Mith
ID: 14102186
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 09:21
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I have no idea whether he Brown shooting was justified. Both witness and official accounts have been compromised by further information that has been released, so I think we're well past the point of trusting any particular description on it's own merits.
That said there are much greater issues than the death of Mike Brown (as tragic as it is, however it went down) that have people in Ferguson and all over the country fed up.
Black people in Ferguson, as with many other places in this country, get a raw deal with law enforcement. 70 percent of the population gets pulled over far more often than 70 percent of the time. They get searched far more often than 70 percent of the time, despite the fact that contraband is found in searches of white people significantly more frequently than in searches of black people there.
The Ferguson PD is funded by fine receipts. Well more than 70% of that money comes from black Ferguson residents. They are literally forced into funding their own police mistreatment.
Further, there is simply no doubt that in most places in America, if you are a young black man, you have a much different law enforcement experience from most other people, from private security guards and neighborhood watches all the way to criminal courts.
And the shooting has shined a light on a couple of other issues. Particularly, the militarization of America's police (an issue that suburban St. Louis is obviously no exception to) which in this case led to extreme violations of First Amendment rights, some of which came with egregious threats of violence.
Clearly there is something very wrong with the approach to law enforcement in and around Ferguson.
So in my opinion people have a good reason to be fed up. But it's unfortunate that a case with such murky details as the Mike Brown shooting should become the symbol of these problems.
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| | | 14 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 10:09
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If it is shown that Officer Wilson had indeed been attacked, will the left relent with the witch hunt of an officer in harm's way defending himself?
If it is shown that NO violent intent was shown by Mr Brown, will the right concede that a deliberate murder was comitted?
Is there any middle ground?
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| | | 15 | Mith
ID: 14102186
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 10:48
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Likely there will be no definitive answer.
The middle ground is to stop arguing about Mike Brown and acknowledge some of the problems with the way police work has (and hasn't) changed in this country over the past two decades.
For example when did American police adopt the policy of shooting at people simply because they run from them? As teenagers we ran from the police from time to time. Most times they didn't even bother to give chase and when they did they'd give up pretty quickly. Never were any of us shot at.
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| | | 16 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 16:24
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The middle ground is to stop arguing about Mike Brown and acknowledge some of the problems with the way police work has (and hasn't) changed in this country over the past two decades.
One also has to address WHY police response has changed. Have the bad guys become larger in number? Have the bad guys become even badder? Have the bad guys become more beligerant? Have the bad guys become better armed?
Cops can't be Andy of Mayberry when the criminals are worse than Otis.
Next time you have a deadly shooting in your neighborhood, ask yourself when the 911 responder arrives if they are the good guys or the bad guys. Don't let the possible mistake of one officer create some false sterotype that suddenly the cops are the bad guys. It's just what the bad guys want, your shield to hide behind, instead of a cop's shield to arrest them.
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| | | 17 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 16:31
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I feel fortunate to live in pretty close to the safest place and era ever, in the history of the human race.
No bad guys aren't "badder".
If anything, cops are just far less likely to relate to those they are supposed to be "serving".
The death of community policing and the beat-cop, who knows the street crowd is part of it. It's hard to get to know folks behind a windshield travelling 40.
Hiring ex-military is another part of it. How we expect ex-corporals to be ideal for "Public Safety Officers" is beyond me.
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| | | 18 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 20:07
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Hiring ex-military is another part of it. How we expect ex-corporals to be ideal for "Public Safety Officers" is beyond me.
I dont get it
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| | | 19 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 20:18
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Really Bean? Military training, and civilian training, are not the same. The interactions, and the social structure which sets the parameters, are not the same. Military training + military gear = militaristic reactions. Not always very conducive, with a civilian environ.
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| | | 20 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 21:32
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Really?
Military service has nothing in common with police service?
You prefer a policy that if you served in the military you cannot serve in a police force?
Exactly what brain washing did you receive in the military that would preclude you from being an cop sarge?
What we are all baby killers now?
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| | | 21 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Wed, Aug 27, 2014, 22:07
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I don't see where he says that military service should preclude someone from being a cop.
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| | | 22 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 00:28
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PD, Read what bili said that i quoted in 18.
Read again how sarge challenged my challenge to bili's one comment.
Summary, if you were a corporal in the Army you should not be a cop.
Tell me EXACTLY what I missed?
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| | | 23 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 00:41
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This is how it starts, isnt it? Perhaps we look the other way when someone cuts in a line, next we tell ourselves its OK to shop lift. Before you know it, we try a bit of it ourselves, cause why not have some of the fun too. Next thing we are sympathizing with criminal elements and creating corrupt organizations and anyone who is trying to maintain order of the chaos is the bad guy. It's all a slippery slope. No one dares throw out the first stone, because the stone thrower will get stoned. Fugg it, move to Colorado where everybody must get stoned.
It's your world kids! Hope you dont blow it up. An entire squadron of nuclear missleers conspires to cheat on a test and it gets little press, but one kid with criminal intent gets killed and the world has come to an end.
Good news, there was one kid that ratted them all out. Who knows what they would've conspired to do next. Please gain some prespective.
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| | | 24 | biliruben
ID: 28420307
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 00:42
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No. I said no such thing.
Go back an re-read what I said, and then we can have an honest discussion.
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| | | 25 | biliruben
ID: 28420307
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 00:43
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Set the glass down.
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| | | 26 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 00:45
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Oh bili finally wieghs in. What part of my quote of what you said is a misinterpretation.
Better said, what exactly did you mean when you said:
Hiring ex-military is another part of it. How we expect ex-corporals to be ideal for "Public Safety Officers" is beyond me.
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| | | 27 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 00:49
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Your misinterpretation is where you said "You prefer a policy that if you served in the military you cannot serve in a police force?"
Nobody said this. Well, you did. But no one else.
Being a cop and being in the military are two different jobs. Being ex-military doesn't mean that someone would make a good cop.
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| | | 28 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 00:50
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And get off my lawn, punk!
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| | | 29 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 00:55
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<27> PD, bili is a grown man, he can defen his words without your help. I will say to your comment Being ex-military doesn't mean that someone would make a good cop.
No, but its a damn good start.
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| | | 30 | biliruben
ID: 28420307
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 01:14
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I think social workers would have more useful experience than ex-military.
They have a far better skill set to help the people they are sworn to serve.
We draw far to large a pool from the military, which has very little overlap with what is necessary to be a good cop.
Are there good cops that are ex-military? Of course.
But our citizenry is a police officer's employer, not their enemy. Far too many cops think we are the enemy.
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| | | 31 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 01:53
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#29: My response was to your #22. If you don't want a response from me, try to avoid asking specifically for one.
Good military members (which is a subset of military members) can, indeed, bring good tactical skills to being a cop. Which itself, is a subset of being a cop.
Maybe you think I'm being a buttinski here (despite your specifically calling me to respond). But part of my job is actually hiring cops. So there's that.
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| | | 32 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 04:38
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Radley Balko (who else?)
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| | | 33 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 09:37
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He's confusing (perhaps intentionally) the role of SWAT (which have been around for decades) with the everyday militarization of many departments in the wake of 9/11.
This is like saying that cops have guns which make them want to shoot more and more people. It is a nonsense, arguing backwards argument.
There is a reason the first word in SWAT is Special.
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| | | 35 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:50
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The title of that article is patently false. And so the point of the article is consistently muddied (perhaps, as I mentioned above, intentionally so). The point seems to be that there is a slippery slope of police violence and we're well on our way down that slope.
What we have seen (and is the real problem), is the militarization of everyday cops, whereby every citizen interaction is treated as a potential hostile, violent one. There's no indication that this was caused by SWAT (which has been around for decades) and even the War on Drugs was around for years before this became a problem.
What did happen was that America's paranoia was responded to by increasing amounts of cheap (sometimes free) military-grade weaponry provided to local police. The police didn't become militarized until they started getting those military weapons. That happened beginning in the mid-2000's. The problems we're seeing right now are a direct result of our War on Terror both in terms of our response and our choice of weapons.
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| | | 37 | Mith
ID: 231150292
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 11:10
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PD #35
The title of that article is patently false.
It might be a bit sloppy but I don't think it's patently false. First, most of the piece is an excerpt from an interview, except for the first four sentences, which is apparently Alex Halperin's work. In any case, Balko (the person being interviewed) didn't write the headline.
Also, anyone familiar with Balko's work knows a major focus of his is the proliferation of SWAT equipment in small town departments. I've never seen him claim there is no use for them or that no department should have them.
And if you read the whole piece, you know the headline is a paraphrase from the interview. That statement in it's intended context seems to agree with much more of what you say:Can you describe how this plays out at the local level? How do any number of small towns now have SWAT teams even as small towns are suffering? How does that training happen? And how does it get used?
I think part of it is the Pentagon giveaway, the DHS grant; that gets them some of the hardware they need. And then they make the case for starting a SWAT team, and inevitably – I’ve watched this happen in towns – they’ll get the equipment and they’ll get the SWAT team. They’ll invoke Columbine or Virginia Tech or Newtown, now, and they’ll say, “This could happen here. This is why we need to be prepared.” And of course, as high-profile as those things are, they’re vanishingly rare.
Once a small town gets a SWAT team and starts one, it’s expensive to maintain and you want to use it, and the easiest way to use it is to send them out on drug raids. It’s not just that it’s easy – there are incentives. There are federal grants that are tied to drug policing. If you wait until you’re about to arrest a suspected murderer or rapist – which, in small towns, doesn’t happen that often – a SWAT team’s going to be a negative when it comes to revenue. Send them out on a bunch of drug raids, you get all this federal money; there’s also asset forfeiture that is usually tied to drug crimes, and the SWAT team can actually generate money for the department.
So, it starts with the equipment. You just need unsupported justifications for why it’s necessary, and then there are all these incentives for police departments who are using it for pretty low-level crimes.
Training is another problem. At least in the big cities, when they have these SWAT teams, they’re usually well-trained. It’s usually a full-time position. In some of these small towns and little counties, there are cases where there’s a 15-man police department and they also have an eight-member SWAT team. These guys are part-time, and they’re not getting the training that they need to do this. I think even the well-trained SWAT teams are used too frequently, but it’s better to have a well-trained SWAT team than a bunch of guys who are kind of in it for the thrill. Is it that you are making a distinction between SWAT equipment and military grade equipment? I'm under the impression that most of the military grade equipment obtained by local police departments winds up becoming part of the equipment at used by SWAT.
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| | | 38 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 11:28
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<31> Sure, lets psycho analyze a bank robber in the act of robbing the bank. Good plan there, bili. Maybe we need more women in the force too, cause nobody ever tries to challenge a cop physically when being confronted by the law.
What world do you live in where all the criminals can be behavior modded into a life of the straight and narrow at the time of being apprehended for the crime? Maybe a whole bunch of those psycho analysts could have captured the Boston bombers BEFORE they blew off the bomb, right?
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| | | 39 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 11:41
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Previous post should have been directed to <30> not <31>.
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| | | 40 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 11:47
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MITH: The military-grade equipment actually *is* a step up from SWAT equipment, but not enough to really make much of a difference, IMO. The real difference these days is in terms of scope of use, which leads to confrontational-style policing overall.
This is pretty predictable, of course. We engage our military when other options have fallen away. But in community-style policing, violence (heck, even confrontation) is the last resort rather than the first or only). Shock and awe only goes so far when you are policing the people who are in charge of you.
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| | | 41 | Khahan
ID: 2714278
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 12:15
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Bean - I think you are over generalizing too much. The arguments you are making, to me at least, hold true for cops interacting with criminals. The over-generalization is that not all cop interactions are with criminals but you are trying to make arguments for police on that basis.
I also recognize that going into a situation the context and person being dealt with is an unknown and a potentially life threatening situation.
But that does not give cops an excuse to physically abuse citizens even during an arrest.
Those are both instances of cops dealing with criminals or potential criminals. And like I said, police have to be wary of that at all times. In those interactions I believe military training is a definite plus.
But sometimes the police interaction is just with ordinary citizens.
And boy do I wish we had more media coverage of police programs like this one. Because the cops have a tough job. A
thankless job that stupid people make more difficult.
And they don't get the respect as a whole they deserve because they get crucified in the media despite things like this.
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| | | 42 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 12:54
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Twice at my last house, my dog started barking, I let him out to not wake my toddler, and followed him to a bush.
In that bush was a dude in full armor with an full-auto rifle.
The first time, they were trying to "take-down" my neighbor, a 62 year-old grandma, who happened to be ex-herion addict with a poor choice of boyfriends.
The second time was just some low level drug-dealer, where the 3-hour stand-off was because he was a deep sleeper. The "took him down" when he came out to get the paper is his robe.
That's when I realized our country's policing was completely f'ed up.
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| | | 43 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 12:57
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And yes, both these folks needed a social worker far more than a joint drug task force or SWAT on their door step.
At one 1000th the cost.
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| | | 44 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 13:14
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<42> So, you are saying that this "low level" dealer should not have been arrested?
Give me a break!
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| | | 45 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 13:43
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He isn't saying the guy shouldn't have been arrested. Only that the arrest doesn't necessitate full body armor and automatic weaponry.
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| | | 46 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 13:45
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<45> I am sure that the families of the officers who made the arrest would disagree.
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| | | 47 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 13:46
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I never felt worried about the safety of my family and pets, except during these two occasions.
The dude looked ready to shoot my dog, and my little boy was sleeping less than a hundred feet away from where bullets could have been flying.
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| | | 48 | Perm Dude
ID: 586411123
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 13:48
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#46: I'm not sure about that at all, to be blunt. Intentionally escalating a situation puts officers at risk first.
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| | | 49 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 13:49
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When cops are paid 6 figures due to the risks they are required to take in their jobs, yet make decisions where they put their own safety first, in front of the citizenry they are supposed to be protecting, then something is wrong.
This could have been handled by a simple knock on the door, and the neighborhood would have been far, far safer.
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| | | 50 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 14:16
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<48>PD, have you ever had to deliver the news to the fallen's family yet? On either side of this debate?
Personally, I prefer that criminals know they could die for their crimes, particularly if they resist arrest. Maybe we'll have a lot fewer of them if they think about the consequences of their actions, if not for their victims then for themselves.
But go ahead, defend the criminal if that's your tendancy. No sense looking out for the guy who is looking out for you. Fugg that guy.
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| | | 51 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 14:16
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<49> in what world do patrolmen earn 6 figures bili?
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| | | 52 | Frick
ID: 17640169
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 14:47
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The same world where teachers make $100k. The land of outliers and exceptions.
I agree that the militarization of police is a disturbing trend. The initial situation in Ferguson isn't part of that, the ensuing escalation was.
We had a similar incident in my home town in July.
Elkhart Truth Thankfully it didn't escalate like Ferguson did, I'm guessing because no one was killed. But, other than the officer being able to pull his gun in the Ferguson incident, these to incidents are remarkably similar.
Interesting that while I was trying to find the link, I came across a story that a neighboring county (slightly larger, but not significantly) has received $4.1M in military equipment since 2006, my county has received $30k. That seems like a pretty big discrepancy.
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| | | 53 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 14:54
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<51> In Seattle, most of them. Over 1100 officers, including many, many patrol officers, made more than 100K last year.
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| | | 54 | biliruben
ID: 105572020
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 15:14
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I know lawyers who have become cops so they could start making the serious chedder. I won't even get started on the pensions and other Benes.
They are well comensated, for their ever-diminishing risk.
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| | | 55 | biliruben
ID: 105572020
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 15:26
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Now ask me how much a social worker makes..
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| | | 56 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 17:17
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And I'm not saying being a cop isn't a moderately dangerous occupation. But the reason it's dangerous, is you are often hiring your risk-takers, who are then given a supped-up car and carte-blanche to drive as fast as they want.
They generally don't die buy being shot by drug dealing grandmas. They run into something while driving far too fast. Often an innocent bystander.
Get 'em out of their cars, mixing with those they need to get to know to do there job well, and there job becomes much safer.
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| | | 57 | Khahan
ID: 16341313
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 18:18
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Wow bili...just wow.
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| | | 58 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 18:31
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If what you say is true bili, then the affluence of Seattle defies what the rest of the country knows to be reality.
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| | | 59 | biliruben
ID: 105572020
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 18:34
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I know. Amazing, isn't it. Popular culture gives us a pretty skewed view of police work.
Don't get me started on firemen. ;)
What we need is the teabaggers to start referendums banning police unions.
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| | | 60 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 19:08
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6 figures in NYC isn't rare at all with the overtime they can pull.
And they do even better in the wealthy surrounding counties.
Small town cops don't do as well, obviously. I believe I read that Officer Wilson makes $45k. Maybe he hits $65k with overtime.
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| | | 61 | weykool
ID: 586491619
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 21:41
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Don't get me started on firemen. ;)
LOL
In Orange County the top earning Sheriff and Fireman made over 250K. Plus benies, some of which are working on their 2nd pension.
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| | | 62 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 23:43
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In 2013, Ferguson gave out 10,000 more arrest warrants than people in Ferguson
You don’t get $321 in fines and fees and 3 warrants per household from an about-average crime rate. You get numbers like this from bullshit arrests for jaywalking and constant “low level harassment involving traffic stops, court appearances, high fines, and the threat of jail for failure to pay.”
No small part of the problem here, is the approach of the entire department.
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| | | 63 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 01:03
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So, sarge, what you are telling me is that Mr Brown was Robin Hood defying the Sheriff of Nottingham and we should lament his failed attempts at freeing us all from the tyrranny?
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| | | 64 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 01:12
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No, what I'm saying is that indications are, the local PD was fleecing the community and has been for sometime. Bad policies, bad procedures, bad results.
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| | | 65 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 01:15
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<61> How does one get a piece of that action weykool?
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| | | 66 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 01:20
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<64> So, officer Wilson, despite his affiliation with what might be a corrupt PD, is not responsible for any of the potentially corrupt practices of the aforementioned police department. Further, officer Wilson has nothing to do with the apparent militarization of police forces across the United States.
What Officer Wilson should be judged on is.....
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| | | 67 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 01:22
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facts which we in the general public, do not have. From what we DO have, it would appear to be a dirty shoot. A VERY, dirty shoot.
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| | | 68 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 01:22
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You are welcome
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| | | 69 | Khahan
ID: 5977299
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 11:32
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Sarge - in 67 I don't think its fair yet to say it was a dirty shoot. I think at most what the facts support is that there was a shot, but its still up in the air whether it was justifiable or not.
We have a piece meal version of officer Wilsons story but we still do not have evidence to support it.
We have a clear version from Mr. Brown's side, but we have evidence that (forgive the pun) shoots down most of that version.
And in all fairness if we want to use Mr. Brown's prior actions at the drug store to paint a picture of his attitude and demeanor I think its only fair to look at the information in post 62. This tells us what kind of environment and what kind of attitude Mr. Brown lived in and expected from the police. Its all relevant.
But even with that, I don't think its fair to circumstantially say it was a dirty shooting. Let t he grand jury do its job and hope they are good at it and honest and we can trust their decision, either way.
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| | | 70 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 13:24
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<69> I don't think its fair yet to say it was a dirty shoot. Concur
in all fairness if we want to use Mr. Brown's prior actions at the drug store to paint a picture of his attitude and demeanor I think its only fair to look at the information in post 62OK, as long as we dont use it as an excuse for resisting arrest and/or attacking the officer. He either did or did not attack the officer, if he did then the officer is innocent, if he did not then the officer is guilty...its just that when its all said and done, he must be proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. That is the law in this country, is it not?
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| | | 71 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 13:41
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Oh, and here is my predicition. He will be found innocent, there will be looting in the streets, which will enrich the looters, who will happily tell you it was just their way of protesting the awful miscarriage of justice.
The cops will have to enforce a mild form of marshall law, and the cycle will repeat itself until eventually the masses get the fugging message that they cannot act criminally and expect us to look the other way or make excuses for their criminal behavior.
Excuse me while I hit the snooze button again.
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| | | 72 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 14:01
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Here is the real story in Ferguson. Remember it next time you contemplate immigration. Link.
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| | | 73 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 14:47
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Khahan
We have a piece meal version of officer Wilsons story but we still do not have evidence to support it.
We have a clear version from Mr. Brown's side, but we have evidence that (forgive the pun) shoots down most of that version.
This is not true at all. We have several accounts from Wilson's side with several contradictions among them and some of which (including claims stated by FPD Chief Jackson) that have been proven untrue by emerging evidence. We also have surveillance video released by FPD with a portion omitted in order to make Brown's encounter there seem more impulsively violent than it was and preclude the question of whether Brown actually stole anything - which still hasn't been verified to my knowledge. Further, they claim to have released the video on behalf of multiple FOIA requests but the media has looked and cannot find evidence of any such request having been filed.
Yes there is also no shortage of compromised pro-Brown accounts, either. I have no idea why anyone would think any witness descriptions of what happened should be taken on their own merit at this point. We're well past the stage of everyone having an agenda. Trusting FPD is just as foolish as trusting Brown's partner.
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| | | 74 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 11:41
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How is that story about immigration, Bean?
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| | | 75 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 12:42
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You are correct MITH, in that no theft has yet been proven to have occurred. There are also the Chiefs statements, that the officer did not know anything about any convenience store robbery, at the time. 6 bullet holes in the body, left lying in the street for 4 hours, and no incident report having been written, contra-indicate anything "clean". Not necessarily any by themselves, but when all taken into account?
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| | | 76 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 13:49
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<74> It's a story of unemployment and shrinking wages PD. Everything else that is going wrong in that city is a direct result of the poverty that giving the jobs of US citizens to non-citizens, be they within our borders or outside of them.
There is NO bigger issue in the US than that of putting the citizenry back to work. We've become a dependent society not because of the idleness of any one citizen but because of our national policy.
Bullshit workman's comp claims, frivolous lawsuits, the proliferation of gambling and a lottery ticket approach to security in retirement. This is what we've reduced the American Dream to.
We have more stuff than our parents, but we no longer have "the right stuff" that made this country strong. It's all about pride in workmanship, a fair day's pay for a fair day's work and a purpose in life and a hope for the future that must return to many of societies disenfranchised. We let that go by the wayside, and our decline will continue.
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| | | 77 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 15:36
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Sarge 75:
Let's not forget Chief Jackson's repeated claim on national TV that Wilson had fractured his orbital bone, which turned out to be untrue.
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| | | 78 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 19:30
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Bean: You're right that jobs is the biggest issue, but the idea that immigrants are stealing jobs from Ferguson residents doesn't map to that very well.
The problem with jobs is that wages are intentionally depressed, which keeps the economy from growing except in very narrow places. Despite higher worker productivity, lower corporate taxes, and higher-than-ever corporate profits, companies are looking to spend money moving out of the country more than paying more wages to their employees (Why? Simple answer: They don't have to. And the GOP hasn't a clue).
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| | | 79 | biliruben
ID: 229341622
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 20:48
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Immigrants, by and large, are job creators, not job thieves.
Either they are taking a below-minimum wage job that noone here is willing to do (have you tried picking vegis in the 90 degree sunshine all day? I'm guessing very few folks born here have, or could), or they are demonstrably motivated to do anything and everything to make money, and are smart enough to start a business. That creates jobs, and that puts more money into our economy, and provides growth and productivity that wouldn't otherwise exist.
Our country's very foundation, and a huge reason our country is so exceptional, is that we have historically embraced immigration, and the go-getter over-achiever types that are willing to risk it all, and come try their luck at the American dream.
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| | | 80 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 21:17
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<79> People willing to work cheaply drive wages down. They are no friend of the underpaid nor are they the friend of the unemployed. They are just the friend of the guy who is willing to exploit their cheap labor. It's pretty simple really, no need to make it any more complicated.
We have no obligation to enrich people who are not US citizens, even if they are made of better stuff than our current citizens. Nice people maybe, but not OUR people. When our last loser has a good paying job, then maybe we should consider offering one to a guy we dont need here.
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| | | 81 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 21:28
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<79>Our country's very foundation, and a huge reason our country is so exceptional, is that we have historically embraced immigration
I wouldnt be so sure of that.
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| | | 82 | biliruben
ID: 229341622
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 21:33
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Okay, on occasion, reluctantly embraced immigration. In comparison to most other countries, we have certainly been much more welcoming.
And we are much stronger country for it.
Can you imagine if we were still just a bunch of rejected puritans?
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| | | 83 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 22:22
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Something wrong with puritans?
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| | | 84 | biliruben
ID: 229341622
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 23:27
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nope. but i am not inviting them to my birthday. we are officially ot.
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| | | 85 | biliruben
ID: 229341622
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 23:36
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(That last post was written while eating an ice cream cone. Yum. Puritans don't like ice cream, I hear.)
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| | |
| | | 87 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Thu, Nov 27, 2014, 12:29
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Was that the store that Brown robbed just before the shooting?
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| | | 88 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Thu, Nov 27, 2014, 15:40
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bili #79 "Immigrants, by and large, are job creators, not job thieves."
Seriously, you believe the majority of illegal immigrants are business owners and employers?
And if you don't, then you believe they hold a job that an American could be holding.
It just amazes me that poor Dem voters can't do this simple math. Gruber has a job and Gruber appears to be right.
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| | | 89 | biliruben
ID: 229341622
Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 10:51
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Seriously. They may not be now, but they are more likely to be in the future, then say your whiny sons, who are just sitting around and complaining that their jobs were "stolen".
What someone who walks 2 weeks through the desert to get to the US does, is not sit around and complain. They start a drywall business of their own. Clearly, they have a better handle on capitalism.
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| | | 90 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Sat, Nov 29, 2014, 10:37
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#87 - Yes, Bean, same store.
It's hard to understand how this incident became the poster child for police aggression. There seems to be no dispute that Brown physically assaulted the cop, attempting to take the officer's weapon, and was initially shot during that altercation.
The fatal shot occurred when Brown charged the officer in what can reasonably be considered another assault on the officer, given Brown's physical status of 6'5', 300 lbs.
I think it's a given that when you physically assault a police officer, attempting to take his gun, all bets are off. It only takes a moment of current research to find numerous fatal police shootings that rise much higher in questionable justification, like the killing of 12 year old Tamir Rice in Cleveland.
There's certainly a strong basis for closely examining the procedures used by law enforcement when it comes to using deadly force, and it's not hard to be sympathetic with protests that demand accountability. But when I see Al Sharpton race baiting following the statement that the grand jury wouldn't indict Officer Wilson in the Brown case, without demanding accountability from those who use the incident for criminal activities like theft and arson, my sympathies are quickly abandoned.
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| | | 91 | weykool
ID: 21012423
Sat, Nov 29, 2014, 10:50
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Very sad that so many people will stake out a position before all the evidence is in. Saying Brown had his hands up, the officer didnt know about the theft, proclaiming it was a dirty shooting, or the orbital socket was broken are all examples of speaking out of ignorance. The question remains Who has the integrity to man up and apologize for their premature ignorant statements?
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| | | 92 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Sat, Nov 29, 2014, 11:38
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i have long maintained that if you are aggressive towards an authority figure with a gun, you have a reasonable chance of getting dead.
this situation, unfortunately, is no different.
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| | | 93 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Sat, Nov 29, 2014, 22:53
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bili
1) You have no idea what they have to say about it. I haven't quoted them once.
2) They've since replaced the houses they lost and have jobs as good as or better now.
3) They could not open their own drywall business, something we discussed at length, because the foreign competition had ruined the profitability of the industry.
4) The minorities you claim to champion are having their futures stolen by among others, the wealthy plutocrats who would rather pay the working class minimum wages or under the table.
5) It's conceivable that they are smart enuff to someday wake up and do the math and figure out which party screwed them out of a future.
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| | | 94 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Sun, Nov 30, 2014, 11:29
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the wealthy plutocrats who would rather pay the working class minimum wages or under the table
That may be true in some cases, but it's my experience that many business owners hire, retain, and pay very well undocumented workers because they are more dependable and hard working than many of their American counterparts.
Of course, the natural reaction to anybody who speaks Spanish, is to assume they're illegal, but that may or may not be the case. My local blind manufacturer has a lady running the shop who has been there for 8 years, speaks very broken English, so I've always just assumed she was here illegally. I recently found out she's had a green card the whole time. There are 6 other ladies working in the shop, none of whom speak more than a few words of English, and I know that Mark and Paula(the owners, hardly wealthy plutocrats)pay the ones who have been there a while a lot more than minimum wage.
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| | | 95 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Sun, Nov 30, 2014, 15:54
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The Chamber of Commerce isn't luring 1/3 of Mexico here to pay them as much or more, and Dems don't care about the blacks whose jobs they are giving away to the Mexicans.
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| | | 96 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Sun, Nov 30, 2014, 18:23
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#95 is incoherent. The population of blacks in my metro is less than 2%, with a good portion of those African refugees employed by the LDS Church. The 99 person Utah legislature(Senate and House) has 68 Republicans. The Dems aren't giving any jobs to Mexicans, but I can assure you that there are a ton of Republican-owned businesses employing undocumented workers. My county is 100% Republican, so I guess you could say that Republicans don't care about whites whose jobs they are giving away to Mexicans, but that would make me sound like an idiot.
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| | | 97 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 04:32
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Don Surber understands the culture war.- business owners in Ferguson, Missouri: Do not bother rebuilding. Your customers do not want you. They tore up your stores -- twice. And after one of them robbed a store. These are not protests. They are pogroms aimed at the middle class. Take the insurance money and run.
- Police officers, too, should leave. Why risk a criminal trial or worse for doing your job?
- Homeowners, too. Black, white, Asian, Hispanic -- it does not matter. You are middle class. They do not want you. Leave.
- Backed by looters and violent people, liberals are telling the American middle class they do not want you. They want an America where you are either a billionaire knocking down tax subsidies, or jobless and on federal assistance. This is why Obama is importing 5 million more poverty cases illegally from Mexico and points south.
The hundred billionaires who visited 'President Goldman Sachs' WH don't want you in 'their' America either.
It's a war against America. Expect this president to spend the rest of his life, not just the rest of his term, fanning the flames, the riots and cheerleading the takedown of America. He won't be happy until the whole country looks like the wasteland ruins of Detroit.
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| | | 98 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 04:44
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so I guess you could say that Republicans don't care about whites whose jobs they are giving away to Mexicans - PV
You are correct. RINO's are part of a corrupt combine along with DEMS who do not care about the America they are sabotaging.
It's Illinois writ large.
The Republicans may have an historic advantage but the combine still outvotes them. Which is why people like Jeb Bush and Boehner are twisting and turning to figure out a way to pass 'immigration reform' and why they can be counted on not to take down Obamacare even while pretending to, desperately looking for ways to defeat the Tea Party and the mandate of '14.
This congress is gonna look like Newt's congress stylistically but it is doubtful they will act like it. McConnell and Boehner are just the opposite and 'someone' is putting them in leadership positions.
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| | | 99 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 11:08
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From a kid who survived the Hough Riots in Cleveland nearly a half century ago
The tension in Cleveland didn't subside until we elected Carl Stokes to be the first black mayor of a major city in the US. I lived in an integrated neighborhood on the West side (Hough is on the mostly black East side of the Cuyahoga River).
My pastor was a civil rights leader at this time in Cleveland, very active in the Stokes mayoral campaign. Naturally he advocated turning the other cheek, but the sentiment at home was much different.
White Clevelanders were outraged (men) and scared (women and children) by the lawlessness. There goes the neighborhood Alice, time to move to the suburbs. So, the migration begins.
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| | | 100 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 12:17
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Let's see if I have this right.
A black kid with apparently no respect for law enforcement is killed by police, and those protesting constitute pogroms aimed at the middle class.
A white rancher in Nevada with apparently no respect for law enforcement, recruits a mob to confront police with guns at the ready, is an American patriot.
You really don't know what you believe beyond what your media heroes tell you.
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| | | 101 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 17:30
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I didn't see Molotov cocktails being thrown at random people and property, or people being ripped out of cars and beaten to death with hammers in Nevada.
All I saw was Harry Reid corruptly stomping some little guy out of his livelihood.
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| | | 102 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 19:40
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All I saw was Harry Reid corruptly stomping some little guy out of his livelihood.
Confirming your political myopia.
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| | | 103 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 20:25
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Speaking of myopia the NYT failed to report the story of the Bosnian man beaten to death with hammers by the protesters, until Instapundit shamed them into including it a day later.
Didn't fit their narrative.
Four black men beating to death with hammers an unarmed Fergeson man of a different race...not a race crime or even a national story of interest.
Defending yourself against a 'gentle giant' raging hulk trying to kill you with your own gun...oooo...raaaaaacist.
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| | | 104 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 22:16
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Zamir
Florida man murdered in Fergeson, father and husband.
Kinda makes you feel all warm and fuzzy about the protest. Almost like actually marching in Selma.
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| | | 105 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 23:16
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Four black men beating to death with hammers an unarmed Fergeson man of a different race...not a race crime or even a national story of interest.
St Louis police detained three suspects aged 15, 16 and 17 - two of them black and one Hispanic.
So, not four black men, or do all non-whites look the same to you?
Zemir Begic was not a Ferguson man. He lived and was attacked and killed in the Bosnian community of Bevo Mill, on St Louis's southside. Ferguson is a northern suburb, on the complete opposite end of the metro. The info in #103 is easily proven to be self-serving nonsense, especially when previous posts have supported Officer Wilson as justified in defending himself in the altercation with Brown.
The fact that law enforcement didn't reply with deadly force when Bundy's thugs pointed weapons at them(which they usually do and justifiably so) doesn't make those thugs patriots or heroes. It makes them lucky.
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| | | 106 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 23:48
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PV: You miss the point. It isn't the facts of the case, but that the NYT didn't report it, see.
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| | | 107 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 00:20
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St Louis police detained three suspects aged 15, 16 and 17 - two of them black and one Hispanic.
So, not four black men, or do all non-whites look the same to you?
- PV
The story is unfolding.
The story originally was that two black men were in custody and that four men where involved. No mention what race the other two were. It doesn't matter. The four were 'protesters'. I don't despise them because of their race. I despise their protest and their methods.
Zemir Begic was not a Ferguson man. He lived and was attacked and killed in the Bosnian community of Bevo Mill, on St Louis's southside. Ferguson is a northern suburb, on the complete opposite end of the metro. - PV
Zamir was a Florida resident visiting a Bosnian neighborhood.
I believe we will find that the conflict specifically originated as friction between liberal protesters and a local Bosnian community counter-protesting the violence putting them at risk.
In case you hadn't heard, the 'protest' isn't limited to the location of Brown's death.
This murder very clearly backs up the link I posted with the bullet points. It's a culture war with real casualties. People organizing it [such as Sharpton and many more] should be prosecuted for crossing state lines to incite riots. It is a very real crime. It's in the code. The only thing missing is a functional Justice Dept.
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| | | 108 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 00:24
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pot 91 is so ignorant and full of unabashed bias as to be absurd.
The Police chief has stated as a matter of record, that Brown was not stopped relative to the convenience store theft.
Wilson claimed serious injury from day 1, including a fracture of the orbital socket. Matter of public record and it was a false claim.
That you call for apologies after the DA defended Wilson in front of the grand jury, demonstrates only that you lack integrity. COMPLETELY.
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| | | 109 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 00:27
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And guess which media outlet led the way in misleading the Boldwins of the world so they can work themselves into fits of fury? I'll take Fox News for a hundred, Alex.
The headline:
Pack of teens beats man to death near Ferguson
From the accompanying article:
The horrific attack occurred in southwest St. Louis, just 20 miles from Ferguson
Just 20 miles? Twenty miles in a metro area is not 'near' by any stretch of the imagination. For instance, the distance between JFK airport and Hoboken, NJ is 20 miles. From O'Hare to Cicero is 20 miles. If someone from Hoboken told you they live near JFK, you would think them an idiot.
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| | | 110 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 00:40
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Any "developments" to this story are just making the Wacky Right Talking Points look stupider and stupider:
Family told the newspaper that Begic had come to the United States from Bosnia with his family in 1996 and eventually settled in Iowa. Begic moved to St. Louis a few months ago and married Mujkanovic, whose family lives in St. Louis.
source
A tragedy, stretched beyond recognition by those who simply cannot think beyond the talking points spoon fed to them.
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| | | 111 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 00:40
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#107
Do you really think researching after the fact lends any credibility to your nonsense? You twice identified him an a Ferguson man(misspelled btw), and made sure to add unarmed Ferguson man each time in a feeble attempt to make a connection.
As an aside, it was I who brought up Sharpton as race baiting and inciting violence initially in #90. You're late to the party.
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| | | 112 | weykool
ID: 21012423
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 09:29
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I worked with someone who was shot and killed in the Rodney King LA riots.
He was actually in Long Beach which isnt even in the same county as LA.
But only an idiot would try to make an argument that he wasnt killed in the LA riots because technically he wasnt in LA.
It seems pretty clear the man was beaten to death as a result of the protests/violence coming out of Ferguson.
Parse away if it makes you feel better.
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| | | 113 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 09:56
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Long Beach which isnt even in the same county as LA.
Long Beach is in Los Angeles County.
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| | | 114 | weykool
ID: 3294615
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 15:17
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My bad.
The point which seems to escapes you is that its further away than 20 miles.
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| | | 115 | biliruben
ID: 105572020
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 16:14
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No it isn't.
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| | | 116 | biliruben
ID: 105572020
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 16:15
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But I don't think that's your point either.
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| | | 117 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 18:14
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The point is, was there widespread looting, arson and murder in any area of St Louis beside Ferguson since the release of the grand jury info?
Apparently there was one (currently) unsolved murder in Ferguson. There is nothing to connect the tragedy in Bevo Mill to the Ferguson situation, except it's convenient for those who are determined to promote the culture war with real casualties by saying "LOOK!! Black people murdering white people!" Or to actually quote Boldwin,
The four were 'protesters'. I don't despise them because of their race. I despise their protest and their methods.
Murdering, looting and arson aren't protest. Those who committed those crimes need to be differentiated from the the protestors who didn't break any laws, which, outside of a few blocks in Ferguson, is almost all of them.
This is in huge contrast to the LA riots of 92 following the acquittal of the officers who beat Rodney King. The rioting was widespread throughout much of Los Angeles County, including
Long Beach
Three hundred forty fires were set, 1 person died, 361 were injured and 1,200 people were arrested in the worst civil disorders in the history of Long Beach. But residents watching on television for news of their city found mostly the flames of Los Angeles, 20 miles north.
My sympathies to Weykool, your friend being the only person who died in the 92 LA riots in Long Beach.
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| | | 118 | weykool
ID: 21012423
Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 21:02
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Police today announced the arrests of seven Long Beach residents in connection with the death of Mr. Haines, 32 years old, who was pulled from his motorcycle and shot on the night of April 30. Bandwagon of Vandalism
Matt Haines was a mechanic working in Long Beach. He and his cousin we on the way to help a friend who happened to be a black female. They were pulled off their motorcycle and beaten before someone pulled out a gun and stuck it under Matt's helmet and blew his brains out. His cousin was able to escape but with some severe injuries.
RIP Matt Haines.
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| | | 119 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 11:48
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I guess it's easy to say wrong place, wrong time, but driving down the road minding your own business should never be the wrong place.
But the level of crime associated with the LA riots as well as the spread of lawlessness beyond the flashpoint of South Central LA so dwarfs Ferguson as to make any comparison irrelevant, although comparing incidents might be relevant.
In LA, you have video of a somewhat scrawny Rodney King, completely defenseless, being brutalized by 4 police. That fact that the 4 officers were acquitted has a real basis for outrage.
In Ferguson, there is no video of the shooting, but there is a video of a physically intimidating Michael Brown having no problem using his size to intimidate and threaten a store owner while committing a petty theft in his store. In my eyes, that goes a long way in defining who Michael Brown is, whether Officer Wilson was aware of the confrontation or not. Rather than the 'gentle giant' some would have you believe, he appears to be a person who has no problem using his intimidating physical presence to break the law.
I would have expected a higher level of outrage from the Trayvon Martin case than the Michael Brown shooting.
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| | | 120 | Khahan
ID: 9114410
Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 11:04
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I would have expected a higher level of outrage from the Trayvon Martin case than the Michael Brown shooting
Honestly I expect a higher level of outrage at Eric Garner. There are actually 2 videos of his incident for the public to see. At the same time, the protests in NYC have been pretty peaceful which is good. Outrage or not there is no justification for any of the riots in Ferguson. None at all. Whether they spilled over to a district 20 miles away or burned down a store right in the middle of Ferguson - there is no cause for what is happening there.
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| | | 121 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 11:58
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Well, no specific cause. There is plenty of historical cause, for which Brown was a flash point, appropriate or not.
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| | | 122 | Khahan
ID: 9114410
Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 15:42
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Well, no specific cause
For why he was a flashpoint? Yeah, there's a cause. At the risk of sounding Boldwinesque - the cause was agenda-driven media. They wanted a new darling headline to generate revenue from. The other cause was Al Sharpton. That's why the Brown case became the flashpoint.
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| | | 123 | biliruben
ID: 105572020
Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 17:21
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So you are stating there were no communinity actions until the media arrived?
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| | | 124 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Fri, Dec 05, 2014, 18:13
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Beanstradamus prediction back in <71>:
Oh, and here is my predicition. He will be found innocent, there will be looting in the streets, which will enrich the looters, who will happily tell you it was just their way of protesting the awful miscarriage of justice.
The cops will have to enforce a mild form of marshall law, and the cycle will repeat itself until eventually the masses get the fugging message that they cannot act criminally and expect us to look the other way or make excuses for their criminal behavior.
Excuse me while I hit the snooze button again.
It's like predicting the plot of a broadcast television movie, too easy.
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| | | 127 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 13:15
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Finally, YOUR Federal government has ruled. No recommendations of firing that I saw. No name naming of any sort.
Seems they tried to lay blame on inadequate tax revenues forcing the city to use ticketing as a source of income. They conclude that the lack of diversity in the PD and city government is a root cause of the friction between cops and black residents.
So, what starts out as a murder investigation results in a recommendation to provide jobs for minorities. Someone suggested that jobs for black residents was the real issue in Ferguson. Well, at least three or four will get a job out of this.
The investigators do not offer a way to pay for these new employees or recommend who should be fired to make room in the budget for them. They don't recommend any new sources of revenue when the cops stop writing so many tickets and lower the fines and slow their role in collection. These hard choices will be for the city administration and Ferguson voters to figure out.
Don't mistake my angle on the DoJ's recommendations as a condemnation. They've done all they can without cutting the legs out from under Ferguson's LEOs in maintaining the peace.
Will be interesting to revisit this in a year.
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| | | 128 | Seattle Zen
ID: 301361318
Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 13:37
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They've done all they can without cutting the legs out from under Ferguson's LEOs in maintaining the peace.
What a load of crap. Fining people for parking and/or a long litany of stupid things and then jailing them for being late on one payment is the polar opposite of "keeping the peace".
The only logical conclusion one can make from reading about Ferguson's law enforcement, from both a conservative or a progressive viewpoint, is the city would be a lot safer without any law enforcement.
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| | | 129 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 13:46
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<128> SZ, do you have a problem with what the DoJ is saying, or with what I am saying? I just detect anger, if I was an LEO, I might have to restrain you.
You said: "the city would be a lot safer without any law enforcement." Are you an anarchist or would you like to rephrase?
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| | | 130 | Seattle Zen
ID: 301361318
Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 14:01
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Yeah, it's not against the law to be angry, but that doesn't stop LEO from taking that opportunity to restrain... it's your notion that provoked my ire.
I'm not an anarchist, I just call them as I see them.
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| | | 131 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 14:25
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Well, the DoJ has no authority to tell the residents how to behave. If they did, I think they may have a few things to say to them as well. This is still a crime riddled neighborhood, the cops have their work cut out for them.
The report gives the black residents the ammunition they need to affect a change there. I hope they don't squander it with attempts at settling a score or promoting violent protests.
They're going to have to register to vote and then show up at the polls, if they don't want to look like much more than whiners and deadbeats to their white resident counterparts though. That's how its done in this country, in case some have forgotten.
Like I said, this will be interesting to re-visit in a year.
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