Forum: pol
Page 3782
Subject: Authority Gone Awry


  Posted by: Mith - [3692387] Thu, Jan 22, 2015, 11:51

Discussions about abuses in law enforcement are scattered across numerous threads, including (surely among many others) the Michael Brown thread, the Trayvon Martin thread, the Immigration thread, the War on Drugs thread and the Direction of the GOP IV thread.

So hopefully this is a place where that topic can primarily reside.

 
1Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Thu, Jan 22, 2015, 12:39
The case of John Crawford was touched on briefly in the accidental shooting archive, but it didn't get the attention that I think it deserves.

For anyone unfamiliar, Crawford was the guy who picked up a BB gun from the shelf in a Dayton, OH Walmart and casually walked around the store with it in his hand (with the barrel always pointed down, as surveillance video shows unquestionably) when someone called the police about a man pointing a gun at people in the store. Police showed up and killed Crawford before he could react.

This was a terrible mistake by (as far as I'm concerned) very poorly trained police. But tragedy of this store doesn't end there.

After the entirely innocent Crawford was killed by the inept police who responded to a false report of a man threatening shoppers with a gun (called in by someone who was never arrested or charged with any crime, ftr) his girlfriend, who was also in the store at the time, was interrogated by police.

The video is not easy to watch.
Police aggressively questioned the tearful girlfriend of a young black man they had just shot dead as he held a BB gun in an Ohio supermarket – accusing her of lying, threatening her with jail, and suggesting that she was high on drugs.

Tasha Thomas was reduced to swearing on the lives of her relatives that John Crawford III had not been carrying a firearm when they entered the Walmart in Beavercreek, near Dayton, to buy crackers, marshmallows and chocolate bars on the evening of 5 August.

“You lie to me and you might be on your way to jail,” detective Rodney Curd told Thomas, as she wept and repeatedly offered to take a lie-detector test. After more than an hour and a half of questioning and statement-taking, Curd finally told Thomas that Crawford, 22, had died.

“As a result of his actions, he is gone,” said the detective, as she slumped in her chair and cried.
Can you imagine this horror? She knew that he'd been shot but not that he was dead, until this pathetic excuse for a human attempted to use that tragic information to trick her into shifting the responsibility of the shooting from his cops to the innocent victim.

I haven't checked for a followup, but does anyone think that detective was likely reprimanded?
 
2Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Thu, Jan 22, 2015, 12:54
Aiyana Stanley-Jones was the 7 year-old girl who was asleep on the couch in the first floor living room of her house when a SWAT raid blasted through the door looking for a murder suspect who lived on the 2nd floor.
The shooting happened just after midnight, back on May 16, 2010.

A SWAT team had conducted a raid to search for a murder suspect. Weekly ended up being first through the door.

There was even a film crew on hand to film for a reality show about murder investigations. Weekley says that another SWAT member had thrown a flash-bang grenade, which temporarily blinded him. That’s when he fired the shot that killed Aiyana who was asleep on the couch in the front room of the house.

Doubling down on this claim, in court he actually testified that Aiyana’s grandmother had somehow “touched” his gun, which made him fire the shot. But he failed to explain how he could tell she had done this when he claimed he couldn’t see anything at the time.

The prosecution noted that even having his finger on the trigger of his submachine gun was improper. “He could have avoided injury if he had followed his training,” Assistant Wayne County Prosecutor Robert Moran explained.

“He didn’t, and as a result of him not following his training and not following the mandates of ordinary care, someone was killed.”

But ultimately, the arguments and reason didn’t win out.
The manslaughter charge against the cop who killed the girl was dropped last month. I believe the misdemeanor charge of “careless discharge of a firearm causing death.” is still being sought.
 
3Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 05:30
Tamir Rice was the twelve-year-old shot and killed by police on November 22nd in Cleveland, Ohio.
Two police officers, 26-year-old Timothy Loehmann and 46-year-old Frank Garmback, responded after receiving a police dispatch call describing a "young black male" brandishing a gun at people in a city park.[1][2] A caller reported that a juvenile, was pointing "a pistol" at random people in the Cudell Recreation Center, and stated twice that the gun was "probably fake".


In the aftermath of the shooting, it was reported that Loehmann, in his previous job as a policeman in Independence, Ohio, had been deemed an emotionally unstable recruit and unfit for duty.


A surveillance video without audio of the shooting was released by police on November 26 after pressure from the public and Rice's family.[15] It showed Rice pacing around the park, occasionally extending his right arm with what appears to be a gun in his hand, talking on a cellphone, and sitting at a picnic table in a gazebo. The video shows the officers' patrol car pulling up beside the gazebo. Rice then appears to move his right hand toward his waist, prompting Loehmann, to get out of the patrol car and shoot him from a distance of less than ten feet, within two seconds.[9][10][16] Neither Loehmann or Garmback administered first aid to Rice after the shooting.[17] Almost four minutes later, a police detective and an agent from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the latter of whom was working a bank robbery detail nearby, arrived on the scene and treated Rice. Another three minutes later, paramedics arrived and took Rice to MetroHealth Medical Center.


Loehmann, who was identified as having fired the shots that killed Rice, joined Cleveland's police force in March 2014. Previously he had spent five months in 2012 with the police department in Independence, Ohio, about 13 miles south of Cleveland, four of which were spent in the police academy.

In a memo to Independence's human resources manager, released by the city in the aftermath of the shooting, deputy police chief Jim Polak wrote that Loehmann had resigned rather than face certain termination due to concerns that he lacked the emotional stability to be a police officer. Polak said that Loehmann was unable to "basic functions as instructed". He specifically cited a "dangerous loss of composure" that occurred in a weapons training exercise, during which Leohmann's weapons handling was "dismal" and he became visibly "distracted and weepy" as a result of relationship problems. The memo concluded, "Individually, these events would not be considered major situations, but when taken together they show a pattern of a lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions, I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies." It was subsequently revealed that Cleveland police officials never reviewed Loehmann's file in Independence prior to hiring him.


Garmback, who was driving the police cruiser, has been a police officer in the city of Cleveland since 2008. In 2014, Cleveland paid US$100,000 to settle an excessive force lawsuit brought against him by a local woman after Garmback, according to the lawsuit, "rushed and placed her in a chokehold, tackled her to the ground, twisted her wrist and began hitting her body" with "such reckless, wanton and willful excessive use of force proximately caused bodily injury". The woman had called the police to report a car blocking her driveway.[24] The settlement does not appear in Garmback's personnel file.
 
4Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 06:54
te Marcus Jeter was not killed by police. But he is lucky they didn't destroy his life.
A stunning police dashboard camera video helped exonerate an innocent New Jersey man — and led to the indictments of two Bloomfield cops who wrongly accused the man and allegedly beat him during the 2012 incident.

Before prosecutors were given a dashcam video from a second patrol car, Marcus Jeter faced charges of eluding police, resisting arrest and aggravated assault on an officer.

Cops were originally called to the 30-year-old DJ’s home for a domestic violence situation. Butneither Jeter nor his girlfriend were arrested and Jeter left the home shortly after police visited, WABC-TV reported.

Officers followed his SUV and pulled him over on the Garden State Parkway.

“When they were behind me with their lights on, I pulled right over,” Jeter told the TV station, refuting the notion he eluded officers. “No, I wasn’t trying to escape.”

Dashcam video shows that tension at the stop quickly escalated. Two officers jump out of the patrol car and order Jeter out of the car at gunpoint. One is holding a pistol at the man while a second holds a shotgun at his side.

A second tape, of a backup officer responding from the other side of the highway, shows the patrol car swerve across oncoming traffic and running into the front of Jeter’s SUV, causing him to hit his head on the steering wheel.

Neither that video nor the fact the officer struck Jeter’s SUV with his patrol car was ever mentioned in any police report of the incident.

“Get out the car!” one officer yells as he uses a baton to smash the driver’s side window. “Get out!”

Jeter says he was scared he’d be shot if he exited the car. Instead, he says — and the video supports this claim — he sat where he was with his hands in the air as the officers broke the window, unlocked his door and worked to get his seatbelt off to arrest him.

“The next thing I know, as he’s coming around the car, the glass gets busted and all the glass goes in my face,” Jeter told WABC. “My hands are up. As soon as he opens the door, one of the officers just reached in and punched me in the face. As he’s trying to take my seatbelt off, he’s elbowing me in my jaw. And I’m like ‘Ahhh!’ and he’s like ‘Stop trying to take my gun! Stop resisting arrest!’”

“As soon as he say that, I’m thinking something’s going to go wrong.”

In the video, the officers rip the innocent man from his car and throw him on the ground, working to get his hands behind his back.

“Stop resisting! Stop trying to take my f------ gun! Just put your hands behind your back, a--hole,” one officer yells.

“I’ve done nothing wrong,” a muffled Jeter can be heard saying as his face is smashed into the cement.

“Shut the f--- up!” an officer barks back.

The officers continue to berate Jeter as he pleads with them several times, saying “I did nothing wrong!”

The officers pin him up against the patrol car before starting to read his Miranda rights. As they throw Jeter in the back of the car, another officer takes a swing at his head.

“I was going to be doing jail,” Jeter told WABC of his June 2012 arrest. "The first plea [offer] was 5 years.”

As soon as prosecutors saw the second tape, which contains audio and shows the officer drive into Jeter’s car, all charges were dropped.

An internal investigation into the incident found the officers did nothing wrong. But they were suspended without pay in April 2013 and indicted on Jan 31.
 
5Frick
      ID: 17640169
      Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 08:08
This is the type of situation that needs to have federal authorities intervening. I'm not sure how the IA can find them doing nothing wrong, yet they are suspended and indicted later.

 
6Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 09:07
The IA is part of the "thin blue line" brotherhood.
 
7Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 09:21
The IA investigates, largely, police breaking their own rules. Shooting civilians isn't a rule-breaking action in most cases.
 
8Frick
      ID: 17640169
      Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 13:31
I agree, but ramming a civilian and leaving it out of the official report seems to be the type of action that should be considering rule-breaking.

And I agree that they are part of the brotherhood. And sadly, they are also ostracized from inside the brotherhood when they do try to do their jobs.
 
9Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 19:24
This is another piece of evidence of just how ubiquitous it is to see police falsely abusing the 'resisting arrest' charge. This was a well rehearsed tactic obviously. It just came naturally to them to set this guy up. It could be argued that they were even setting up their alibi to murder him which they only aborted when another cop car showed up.

I've seen these false charges used against two friends who I know beyond a shadow of a doubt were innocent. And the people I know are extremely law-abiding and non-violent.
 
10sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 21:14
I have long wondered, how one can possibly be arrested and the sole charge is, resisting arrest. What arrest was being resisted, that the individual is not charged with?
 
11Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 08:02
Hit and Run: 'Bou Bou's Law' Would Restrict No-Knock Police Raids
In response to a botched drug raid that gravely injured a toddler last May, a Georgia state legislator has introduced a bill that would impose new restrictions on warrants that allow police to enter homes unannounced. Bou Bou's Law—which Sen. Vincent Fort (D-Atlanta) named for Bounkham "Bou Bou" Phonesavanh, the 19-month-old boy who was nearly killed by a flash-bang grenade tossed into his crib—would allow "no knock" warrants only in cases where the police can show "probable cause that if an officer were to knock and announce identity and purpose before entry, such act of knocking and announcing would likely pose a significant and imminent danger to human life or imminent danger of evidence being destroyed." That rule is stricter than the standard the Supreme Court has said is required by the Fourth Amendment: "reasonable suspicion" that knocking and announcing "would be dangerous or futile" or "would inhibit the effective investigation of the crime."

According to Carrie Mills, a retired Atlanta cop who "considers herself an expert on search warrants," the change proposed by Fort would be reckless. "If we knock and announced, all evidence is going to be destroyed," she told WTOC, the CBS station in Savannah. "You have to draw the line between your right as a citizen to privacy and a community's right to live in a crime-free environment. You can't have them both."


The no-knock raid that injured Bou Bou, which was carried out by a Habersham County SWAT team, was aimed at his cousin, Wanis Thonetheva, a small-time meth dealer who no longer lived in the house where the boy was staying with his parents and sisters. It is certain that if people like Mills did not use violence to shut down such entrepreneurs, Bou Bou would not have been burned and mutilated by an errant "distraction device," he would not have to undergo a series of surgeries that will continue into adulthood, and his family would not be stuck with $1.6 million in medical expenses. That outcome also might have been avoided if police, who said they had no idea children were present in the home, had done even the most rudimentary surveillance before knocking down the door.
 
12Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 08:36
The curious case of Jesus Huerta

How exactly does a young man who has been frisked and handcuffed behind his back before being placed in the back of a police car manage to commit suicide by shooting himself in the face on the 3 minute ride to the station?

I guess that question would be easier to answer if the car's internal camera hadn't been turned off.
 
13Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 08:45
Well however Huerta did it, he apparently inspired 23 year old Victor White, who somehow managed the same trick in the back of a police car.
About six blocks from the store, an Iberia Parish deputy responding to the fight saw White and Lewis walking and stopped them, according to a state police news release.

"Upon responding to the area, deputies located White and discovered he was in possession of illegal narcotics. White was taken into custody, handcuffed behind his back and transported to the Iberia Parish Sheriff's Office for processing," the release said.

According to the service report from the sheriff's office, Cpl. Justin Ortis received no description of the men involved in the fight. He was told only that they were black, "and one of the males mentioned having a gun," the report said.

When he stopped White, the service report states, White consented to a pat-down, and Ortis found marijuana in his pocket. After reading White his rights, he searched White more thoroughly and found "suspected powder cocaine and a packet of cigarillos. ... White stated the marijuana and cocaine belonged to him and the cigarillos were used to smoke the marijuana."

Crump was especially suspicious of this aspect of the report and asked, "If you pat someone down and you can feel a small package of marijuana, wouldn't you feel a gun?"

White's cooperation apparently dissipated en route to the station, according to the state police news release. Once at the station, he refused to exit the patrol car.

"As the deputy requested assistance from other deputies, White produced a handgun and fired one round, striking himself in the back," the release states, adding that White was pronounced dead at a local hospital.


The bullet entered the right side of White's chest, perforating his lung and heart, before exiting near his left armpit, according to the autopsy report.
 
14Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 08:54
Yvette Smith: killed by police for opening the front door of her home to the police she'd called.

Terrible mistakes happen. But they don't have to be justified by a false report that the woman had a gun. And they especially shouldn't require a lieutenant, a sergeant and five additional supervisors to falsify records to protect the deputy who killed the victim.
 
15Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 08:59
Presented without comment.
 
16Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 09:14
68 year old Kenneth Chamberlain was a marine and a 20 year veteran of the Westchester County Department of Corrections.

Like Yvette Smith, he was killed by police summoned to his home to help him.
Chamberlain, who lived alone, suffered from a chronic heart condition and wore a pendant to signal LifeAid, a medical alert company, in case of trouble.

That morning, the company called police after the pendant went off and Chamberlain failed to respond to a two-way audiobox installed in his apartment. He appears to have accidentally set off the device while he was sleeping.

A LifeAid employee then requested that a squad car go by the house to check on him.

When police arrived, they started banging on his door. Chamberlain yelled out to them that he was all right, that they weren’t needed.
The dead man’s son, Kenneth Chamberlain Jr., and a pair of lawyers said LifeAid’s audiobox recorded every sound inside the apartment. They listened to the recording in February in the office of Westchester County District Attorney Janet DiFiore, though authorities have not released it publicly.

According to the official police version, the officers heard loud noises inside and thought someone else might be in danger. They said they needed to force their way inside to make sure everything was okay.

But Chamberlain refused to open the door for them, according to the lawyers who listened to the audio recording. He was angry at being disturbed by the loud banging and by several police cars and fire engines. He became increasingly agitated as he saw more police arriving with guns drawn.

A nearly hour-long standoff ensued.

Chamberlain’s niece, Tonyia Greenhill, who lived in an apartment upstairs, came down and tried to talk with police, but was ignored. Her uncle sounded scared and was begging the police through the door to leave him alone, she recalled.

One of the family’s lawyers is Mayo Bartlett, a former Westchester assistant district attorney. He and the dead man’s son said someone can be heard screaming at Chamberlain on the LifeAid tape:
“I don’t give a f--k, n----r, open the door!”

One of the people banging outside was also reportedly heard yelling: “I need to use your bathroom to pee!”

Others were taunting Chamberlain’s military service after they discovered he was a former Marine.

The LifeAid dispatcher, who was listening to every word of the commotion, offers at one point to contact family members of Chamberlain to intercede, and even tries to cancel the call for police assistance.


The tape runs for several more minutes while cops and firefighters work to remove the hinges to the door.

When they finally do, a camera reveals Chamberlain Sr. standing inside his apartment, wearing only boxer shorts, with his arms at his side and his hands empty, according to the son and the family’s lawyers.

“The minute they got in the house, they didn’t even give him one command,” Bartlett said. “They never mentioned ‘put your hands up.’ They never told him to lay down on the bed. The first thing they did ... you could see the Taser light up ... and you could see it going directly toward him.”

Why anyone would use a stun gun on a man with a known heart condition is astounding in itself.

But the cameras don’t capture anything more after that point, according to the son and lawyers. Police say Chamberlain later came at them with a knife, and one cop fired two shots. More than four months after the incident, authorities have refused to identify that cop.
A grand jury reviewed the case and decided that no criminal charge would be made against police officers involved in the killing.
 
17Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 09:26
Cameron Tillman was a 14 year old scholar athlete with a 3.7 GPA and reportedly no reputation for trouble.

Admittedly, he was committing the crime of trespassing as he and his neighborhood friends were playing in an abandoned house, an activity that I'd bet most Americans probably took part in at some point during their youth, including me.
They heard a knock on the door and so Cameron got up to answer the door,” explains Lionel Tillman.

Lionel Tillman says his 14-year-old nephew answered the door never knowing exactly who was on the other side.

“They parked like four houses down and just knocked on the door. Didn’t say who he was, and he thought it was one of their friends just coming by, just to hang out with him. The next thing you know my nephew opened the door and he got shot, just that quick. Then after that, after the first shot, one of his friends closed the door to prevent him from getting shot again and he put a bullet clean through the door,” says Lionel Tillman.


Terrebonne Parish Sheriff Jerry Lapenter has said the 14-year-old was holding a BB gun that looked like a real gun and his deputy feared for his life. He’s called the shooting a freak accident.

Lionel Tillman says there was a BB gun, but it was on the table. He says accident or not it does nothing to bring back Cameron.

Three other young men were arrested that night, including Cameron’s brother. Louisiana State Police say they’ve been released and charges are pending.

At this point Louisiana State Police aren’t confirming any details regarding the BB gun. All they’re saying is that a weapon was found in close proximity to Cameron’s body.
The police' story changed from Tillman holding a gun when he opened the door to there being a gun in close proximity to his body. That "proximity" was actually a table which the bb gun was resting o top of, several feet away from the door (as can be clearly seen from the video embedded in the linked page).
 
18Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 12:47
Tarika Wilson's 14 month old son survived the bullets fired into his little body. His young mother did not.
A Lima, Ohio jury has acquitted police officer Joseph Chavalia of involuntary manslaughter in the death of 26-year-old Tarika Wilson. Chavalia shot and killed Wilson and wounded her infant son during a drug raid last January. Wilson was unarmed.

During the raid, one of Chavalia's fellow officers shot and killed the two dogs owned by Wilson's boyfriend and the target of the raid, Anthony Terry. Chavalia testified that he mistook his fellow officer's shots at the dogs for hostile gunfire coming from the bedroom where Wilson was standing with her child. Chavalia then fired blindly into the bedroom.

The jury concluded that Chavalia reasonably feared for his life when he heard the gunshots. I guess they were then willing to overlook Chavalia's mistaking an unarmed woman holding a baby for an armed drug dealer, and the fact that he fired blindly into a room without first identifying what he was shooting at. It's too bad that that same sort of deference isn't given to the people on the receiving end of these raids when they too understandably confuse the police officers who wake them from sleep and invade their homes for criminal intruders.

This case illustrates the low margin for error in these raids, and why they're a bad idea even when the police do hit the correct house. Anthony Terry may be a bad man. But these sorts of tactics are too volatile and too dangerous to be using on anyone except for those people who pose an immediate risk to the public. Even the smallest mistakes can lead to unnecessary casualties.

It also shows how layer upon layer of flawed arguments can allow something as unjustifiable as the shooting death of an unarmed woman and the near-killing of her infant son to be dismissed as mere collateral damage. The initial argument is that we need to prohibit drugs to protect people from the harm they cause. That's followed by the argument that we need to use aggressive, paramilitary raids to apprehend drug dealers, because they might dispose of evidence or shoot cops were drug warrants to be served by less confrontational means. That's followed by the argument that we have to forgive cops who kill innocent people in these raids because the raids themselves are incredibly volatile and dangerous. Never mind that the police created the danger and volatility in the first place.
 
19Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 17:23
"You’re not f****** American," one police officer is heard on the video yelling to Klyzek. "I’ll put you in a UPS box and send you back to wherever the f*** you came from."
"I’m a citizen, OK?" Klyzek responded.
"No you’re not! No, you’re not a citizen! No, you’re not! No, you’re not! You’re here on our borrowed time," the officer said. "So mind your f****** business before I shut this whole f****** place down. And I’ll take this place and then whoever owns it will f****** kill you because they don’t care about you, OK? I’ll take this building. You’ll be dead and your family will be dead."
Not ok.
 
20Tree
      ID: 161036918
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 17:33
if i didn't think he'd muck this thread up in a Baldwinesque style, i'd bring my buddy Sean (former pro wrestler Val Venis) into the discussion, as he is probably the most anti-cop person i've ever known.
 
21Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 18:24
Several questions that come to mind:

1) Where is the audio?

2) Is the police department taking action?

3) Is the bust legit, if so, what is happening regards "the case"

If #3 is its legit and they are being prosecuted, the rest is a smoke screen to garner public support.
 
22Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 19:09
Black Father, White Mother. What color is the kid? Why? What difference does it make? Your answer brands you as either color blind or a racist? Why do we even measure what color people are when talking about crime statistics? Maybe the only person who even looks at the data is a racist.

There is a disproportionate number of black people in our criminal justice system. Nobody disputes that.

One unemotional person thinks its because blacks are more likely to commit crimes and that if cops profile in the course of their duty day, that they will be more effective in reducing crime.

Another unemotional person thinks that profiling by cops is itself a crime and in fact is the greater crime.

Seems both want the same thing, to eliminate crime. Yet the two positions in the ideal are mutually exclusive.

Fix the root cause and stop being counter-productive.
 
23sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 21:15
Iowa Highway Patrol, seizing your cash, just because....
 
24biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 22:18
Sorry Bean.

I'm sure you aren't a racist, but you can't just waive your arms and say that the last 200 years of institutional racism, oppression and mufti-generational trauma didn't exist, and that everybody is all of a sudden colorblind, and it's raining jellybeans and gumdrops.

Doesn't work that way.
 
25Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 00:54
bili,

Nor should you blow off your responsibility for your own actions, and blame your behavior and the resultant consequences on something that happened to someone you've never met. Nor should you tolerate anyone who would. I am and will never be someone who cowers in the sight of the race card.

Doesn't work that way.

Each of these cops that get highlighted work for a specific jurisdiction. Therefore the issue is one of a specific jurisdiction. Identify a bad cop in your city, decide what to do about it, move on and dont bother the rest of us with your problems and tell us because your cops are messed up, all of the cops across the country are messed up. It doesn't work that way.

If you want standardization of training and procedures, do away with the jurisdictions and make one big police department. Of course, if you do that, you may bring about exactly the thing that Baldwin has brought to your attention. What does he say? Beware the jack-booted nazis or something like that?

Jobs
 
26sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 10:51
(A) Nobody said ALL of the cops are messed up. Strawman. Doesnt work that way.
(B) There is an undeniable brotherhood among police forces/officers. The racism, is institutionalized. It DOES work that way.
(c) It is a national problem, in that in involves local issues at many, MANY locations, spanning the nation.

 
27Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 11:29
Sarge first you deny that your premise is that ALL cops are messed up, then you say its an institutional problem spanning the nation.

So, which is it?
 
28sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 15:12
It is both. It is not ALL cops, a=with absolute 100% certainty. It is not ALL departments, with absolute 100% certainty. It DOES span the nation from FL to Alaska and Hawaii to Maine, with absolute certainty.
 
29Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 16:27
OK, so your not a COP-ist, right? Got any specific recommendations for the DoJ? Got some new revolutionary thing that they should be doing to "police" this "problem". Or are we just venting?
 
30Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 19:19
... (A) and that everybody is all of a sudden colorblind, (B) and it's raining jellybeans and gumdrops... - bili

A) Obama's first disingenuous campaign promise miracle.

B) Obama's recent SOTU address.
 
31Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 19:41
If you want standardization of training and procedures, do away with the jurisdictions and make one big police department. Of course, if you do that, you may bring about exactly the thing that Baldwin has brought to your attention. - Bean
While no one is paying attention, Obama just goes ahead and does what the radicals were planning all along.

The whole Ferguson thing was just a smokescreen and a pretext to strongarm Ferguson into an Eric Holder mandated consent decree.

AKA one at a time, the 'Bill Ayers' of the world screwing up the nation's police the same way radicals did in America's education system.

Forward! Because of dear leader I WALK THIS WAY!
 
32Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 19:48
Can't wait till those jackboots show up for a little 'community policing' Bill Ayers style.
 
33sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 20:59
just venting? Have you ever seen a problem addressed, that wasnt first identified?
 
34sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 21:14
COP BEATS LGBT HIGHSCHOOL GIRL, KICKS HER BROTHER’S TEETH OUT WHEN HE TRIES TO PROTECT HER: LAWSUIT

 
35sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 21:14
Maybe better psych screening in the academies would be a good place to start
 
36Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Mon, Jan 26, 2015, 00:05
<33> Multiple choice? I love those.
 
37khahan
      ID: 5503269
      Mon, Jan 26, 2015, 17:43
Sarge, you are right that the problem needs identified to be addressed. But I agree with what Bean is saying - the problem isn't what is being discussed. Boiling it down to a race issue is a huge disservice to the overall problem of bad cops.

Are there bad cops who have killed or abused suspects because of the color of their skin and racist attitudes? Absolutely. But does this mean there is an institutional problem on a national level? Not by a any stretch.

To me, most cops are good. But there are many different kinds of bad cops - some are racist. Some are power-hungry egotists (I think the cop in the eric garner case fits this description). Some are simply dirty. Whatever the reason the problem is bad cops.

But I also think a thread highlighting the bad cops, while well intentioned, is a problem in and of itself. It paints 'cops' as bad people who are out of control and promotes a general mistrust and bad attitude towards our men in blue. I think a more useful thread would be a discussion that outlines various types of bad cops and how to deal with them. Much more productive than a "look at all these dirty, bad, evil, power hungry racist, out of control cops that are running this country!" thread that this seemingly turning into.

But a good place to start is #35 - right in the academies. And out of the acadamies better mental health support for our cops who have an unusually stressful job.
 
38sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Tue, Jan 27, 2015, 00:08
black former mayor calls 911 to report a robbery....gets beaten and arrested

yeah, race has nothing to do with it....BS
 
39Khahan
      ID: 34072516
      Tue, Jan 27, 2015, 00:37
yeah, race has nothing to do with it....BS

Good thing nobody is saying that.
 
40Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 06:45
There are numerous problems with police, and despite Bean's very strange singular obsession with race, racial issues are just part of it.

The first and I think most difficult problem is their unyielding loyalty to one another, to the last excusable moment and often beyond. And it is absolutely institutional, in fact it's more than that it is burned into the culture of police officers in America.

This is the problem that needs to be dealt with in order to solve any of the others, because it protects and perpetuates many of the other issues.

The way to solve it is better oversight. Maybe this is something that needs to be done at the local level, as it does seem that internal investigations turn a much blinder eye in some places than others. Perhaps it's a state issue. For some reason certain states seem to have more frequent examples of abuses of power, but across various counties. Mostly I'm thinking of NJ and OH.

Or maybe the DOJ or congress can alter certain guidelines for how IA departments operate.

There's also a race problem in that cops are just typically more aggressive with black subjects (not just suspects). Most cops and their defenders deny this publicly but most cops I know acknowledge it in private. It is institutional in that it happens almost everywhere but institutional does not mean universal, so no, it isn't all cops.

Their argument was that black people commit more crimes and more of our violent crimes and therefore are (both consciously and unconsciously) dealt with more aggressively. Sometimes it's racism, more often it is part of what Bean calls the human condition.

The thing is, whatever you call it, the heebie-jeebies doesn't fly as an excuse to the part of our citizenry that falls victim to that tendency. With good reason. They have a right to be treated like everyone else during traffic stops and as suspects.

More can be done than just shrugging your shoulders and offering some flippant excuse about human nature.
 
41Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 07:47
Fairfax County,VA uses SWAT teams to raid poker games in private residences.
 
42Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 07:48
And then there is the issue of militarization.
 
43Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 08:20
Balko
In the book, I interview lots of older and retired police officers, many of them with SWAT experience. I also cite other police chiefs and sheriffs over the years who have raised concerns about militarization. The divide among police on this issue isn't political. One of the former police chiefs I interviewed -- Norm Stamper of Seattle -- is a progressive. Another -- Joseph McNamara of San Jose and Kansas City -- is a conservative at the Hoover Institution.

Instead, the divide appears to be more generational. Older and retired cops don't seem to like were policing is headed. (This is a generalization and an observation -- I haven't taken any polls.) Younger cops, who are nudging policing in a more militaristic direction, are naturally fine with it.
Very much worth the read. Testimonials from experienced officers who worked during a time when there was far more violent crime than today's officers face.
 
44Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 13:17
Well, we're 13 years out from 9/11, and cops retire after 20 years. This doesn't bode so well if the old timers are the ones who are mostly against the militarization of cops.
 
45Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 15:17
Khahan

I think a more useful thread would be a discussion that outlines various types of bad cops and how to deal with them. Much more productive than a "look at all these dirty, bad, evil, power hungry racist, out of control cops that are running this country!" thread that this seemingly turning into.

I am very sorry but this couldn't possibly be more foolish or naive. As if the greater problems with police in America were so simple as a small percentage of bad eggs of one particular type or another.

Do you really think the detective in the video linked in post #1 is employing a rare tactic to relieve his trigger-happy colleagues of the responsibility of killing a completely innocent man?

The greater issues are systemic.

What kind of bad cop do you single out to counter an encroaching military mindset deploying military hardware and tactics on a civilian population?
 
46Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 21:57
I think we should be discussing who exactly it is among the powers-that-be who are pushing for turning the police into a heavy arms domestic special forces running amok.

I think combing the police force for sociopaths like Khahan suggests couldn't hurt either.
 
47Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 22:04
Hehe, we're profiling nut case cops now?
 
48sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Wed, Jan 28, 2015, 23:49
black man with a golf club

apparently, this female officer sees that as a crime
 
49Khahan
      ID: 34072516
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 00:51
45 MITH, turning to name calling already? When you have no leg to stand on and no real argument to make is the only way you can be heard to shout people down and call them names?

This thread is turning into a cop bashing thread plain and simple. Are there bad cops? Yes. Are they the majority of cops and do they represent standard operating procedure for all cops? Not by a long shot.

But do we need more crap this portraying police as they are in this thread and encouraging more sociopaths to ambush and murder cops in their patrol cars?

Easy answer - No. All I did was point out a better direction for this thread to go. One which may lead to actual discussion of the real problems instead of 'lets just have a thread showing nothing but bad cops, herp derp!' And you resort to name calling. Sometimes I forget why I quit the politics forums. Then you post and a light goes off in my head.

The worst part of your posting - you are SO intent on arguing and riling people up that you dont even know when you are agreeing with people. Thats the funniest thing about you in post 40 and then 45.

Your post 40 said many of the same ideals I said in my post. You may want to split hairs on how we label it. Aside from that you start out with 'there are numerous problems with police.'
I said, "But there are many different kinds of bad cops"
Wow, look at that.
But I'll flat out say it: If you want to just bash cops then expect a push back from me. A hard one. Because there is no cause to bash cops in general because of a few bad ones. If you want to discuss how some cops are dirty and ways to identify them and clean them out of the force then I'll gladly sit down and have a rational discussion. But rational doesn't include juvenile snipes stating people are foolish and naive. Especially when they agree with you.

So which is it? Make a statement - do you simply want to bash cops or do you want to discuss a problem and get a resolution? My money is on not getting a direct answer from you. But I hope I'm wrong about that.
 
50Khahan
      ID: 34072516
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 01:11
I have some links here for you MITH:
Officer Dinkheller 1999

Constable Lunsford 1991

Officer Schmidt 2011

Watch those videos and think of how deadly the day to day job of our police officers are. Maybe they'll shed some light for you on why some officers behave the way they do. Does it justify bad cops? No. But does it explain the fear cops and their families live with daily? Absolutely.
This whole thread disgusts me with the way its presented.
 
51Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 07:07
name callng

Khahan I called your post naive and foolish. It's not my fault if you're unable to tell the difference between your post and yourself.

If you want to be a productive part of this discussion I think you need to take a breath and read through posts 37 and 45 again. This assessment of yours is incoherent and frankly detached from reality.

You see, I do get your point, but you don't get mine. You're uncomfortable with a thread that highlights the problems some of us see with police work in America. And you think the problems are a result of a few bad apples of various types and that we should determine how to approach the problem of each different type of bad apple.

The part you miss (as you somehow believe we "are agreeing" on some level - the only "ideal" we share is that race problems are not universal) is that I believe the greater problems are cultural and systemic and not due to one particular kind of bad cop or another. I believe the training, the tactics, the hardware, the mentality and the culture are all changing for the worse.

The cause is the system. The individuals are mostly just the symptoms.

How can we be largely in agreement when you have not acknowledged my repeated greater issues on any level? You continue to believe you have a point by noting that most cops are "good".

Am I violating some taboo by expressing my belief that there are systemic problems with police work in America that result in abuses?

Am I not supposed to provide symptoms and examples of those issues?

Must I couple each account of abuse with a positive police story for balance, so that no feelings are hurt?

This is exactly like trying to have a discussion with Tree about Israel.
 
52Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 08:53
Now, I understand that when we see a cops using force on video that there was usually an unseen chain of events that led to that point.

And I also accept that I'm not a cop, and try to remember to keep an open mind when things don't make sense to me, like when they put "in their report that they noticed a suspected drug dealer stick a sock in his mouth when he saw them approach, so they had to repeatedly punch him in the face to keep him from choking [and also] because another cop who was placing the suspect in a chokehold had his arm underneath the suspect, causing the officer intense pain and injury.".

When you find out that the video you just watched of that scene was recorded by a guy who says his device was immediately confiscated by police who gave it back after they deleted the video, not realizing it had also been recorded to the cloud his device was synched to, it is still just an issue with these particular individuals, not the department or some greater thing about police culture, right?

In fact the case was picked up by the FBI and is currently being investigated. So Bean and Khahan might tell you that this was an example of the system working.

But then, several weeks after the arrest:
A bystander who recently stepped forward with a video recording of Denver Police officers punching a drug suspect and then tripping his pregnant girlfriend during a violent arrest last August was in jail himself Thursday night.

An attorney familiar with Levi Frasier’s arrest said that Denver Police stopped Frasier’s truck on Thursday and arrested him for a “newly activated traffic warrant out of Park County, Colorado.”

Records show the warrant is for failing to appear in court on two traffic tickets from several months ago, failing to show proof of insurance and lack of vehicle registration.

Frasier was reportedly arrested after leaving the FBI office and before he arrived at FOX31 Denver studios for a schedule interview.

Frasier was not allowed to bond out and was spending the night in jail.

We emailed DPD for a comment and other clarifications after hours.

Cmdr. Matt Murray replied, “I would check with the jail. They could provide the most accurate information about why Mr. Frasier is in jail.”


On Thursday, the Denver mayor’s Citizen Oversight Board sent a letter to Chief Robert White, accusing DPD of “attacking the credibility of the witness who came forward” which “will only inhibit other members of the public from cooperating with DPD and IAB [Internal Affairs Bureau] if they witness possible officer misconduct in the future.”
You see it takes more than just a couple of bad cops to drum up a warrant on the guy and hold him without bond over an old failure to report for a traffic infraction.

And what about the cop who deployed his face-punching technique for extracting drugs from a choking victim who is held in a choke hold by another cop, causing him sufficient pain as to require further face-punching of the suspect for proper alleviation?

He got a promotion and a pay raise. While the federal investigation into the incident he was involved in continues.

This isn't the way it should work.
 
53Seattle Zen
      ID: 576301411
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 13:05
The cause is the system. The individuals are mostly just the symptoms.

This is a great thread, MITH. The American public is having a long overdue education on police tactics and their results. The most important aspect of this education is the fact that a tiny, tiny fraction of the "bad" cops' criminal behavior gets punished. That's not an accident, that is the way the system is set up and I thank MITH for focusing on it.
 
54Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 13:15
Shout out to jobs
 
55Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 13:18
Sure. Get a black guy a job and the local PD will put up their assault tank for auction.
 
56sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 21:26
jobs, is not a cure all. The fella in the story linked in 48, is a 70 yr old Air force retiree. I dont think a "job" would have mattered one whit.
 
57Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 21:32
I think his point is that if more young minority men were employed it would reduce both the rate of violent crime among them and also the associated the stigma, resulting in a more even approach from LEOs.

I believe there's certainly something to that. Not as a solution of course but as something that would help. But race is at the heart of only some of the problems with police in America. So it won't do anything, for example, about the militarization of police.

But Bean is so singularly obsessed with the race side of this issue that the other problems that have been written about at length don't appear to have registered with him at all.
 
58sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 21:59
cop to public defender: "I am going to arrest you, for resisting arrest".

WTF charge was she being arrested on in the first place, TO resist arrest?
 
59sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 22:25
Get ready to read about TX school kids being killed by faculty...

The TX "We Will Kill Your Kids Act"

Not police here, but school faculty, being granted authority to employ deadly force to defend/protect school PROPERTY, and being granted civil immunity. Talk about a potential for abuse of authority.
 
60sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 22:35
cop shoots a sleeping, 7 yr old black girl....charges dismissed
 
61Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Thu, Jan 29, 2015, 23:10
See post #2 for further info on the tragic case of 7 year-old Aiyana Stanley-Jones.
 
62biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 00:25
Don't want to take away from your larger point her mith, but here's a follow up on the alleged-racist who tossed that poor old dude with the golf club in jail:



According to Purucker, during their relationship Whitlatch "frequently" used the word "nigger."

Whitlatch would arrive home, Purucker said, and say things like, "Goddamn niggers again" or "You should have seen what we did to this guy—we jacked him up."

Purucker added, "She had friends in her precinct who were black." But she said Whitlatch talked about black citizens of Seattle's East Precinct differently than she did about black police officers.

Purucker said Whitlatch and other officers (Purucker claims she went on multiple ride-alongs with her girlfriend) would joke about stopping people for "contempt of cop."

link

I'm sure she was a lone wolf, and all her follow cops told her to cut the nigger shit out, and stop profiling black men with no cause.
 
63Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 01:04
"I think his point is ..."

Uh huh, tell me more, never mind I dont want to hear it.

The complaints about police brutality are "so singularly obsessed with the race side of this issue, that the other problems that have been written about at length don't appear to have registered with [anyone] at all."

Yup

In the words of Billy Joel, "We didn't start the fire"
 
64chode
      ID: 05331014
      Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 10:12
Re: 53

If you're going to make a generic statement that "a tiny, tiny fraction of the 'bad' cops' criminal behavior gets punished," are you (and MITH, I'm soliciting answers from both) willing to allow an equally global statement like:

An even tinier, tinier fraction of the "good" that cops do for our general public gets recognized.

or

The ratio of general "good" that cops do for the general public far, far outnumbers the 5 or 50 or 500 posts or whatever you choose to highlight in a thread like this.

? I'd add many disclaimers and caveats and acknowledgments of my own thoughts on the state of Authority Gone Awry (suffice it to say for present post purposes, there's a lot of it), but I'm wondering if those hammering "cops" in general would even agree with those basic premises above?

 
65Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 14:13
Sure I agree with that premise.

And surely you understand why it shouldn't be necessary to point that out for any reason other than base political correctness.
 
66Seattle Zen
      ID: 576301411
      Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 19:02
Re 64: No.

There are plenty of plaques plastering city halls around the country praising cops for doing their jobs.

There are hundreds of thousands of cops doing their jobs everyday who don't taze or kill people criminally. Of those that do, very few get punished. That is wrong. That's what the thread is about.

No one is "hammering" cops. If anyone is being hammered, its prosecutors, internal affairs or police oversight commissions, and police unions.
 
67Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 09:55
Yes, the vast majority of cops are good cops.

This has nothing to do with the fact that cops that are bad do a lot of damage because of the extraordinary powers they hold.

So pardon while I put the hero worship on hold while we try to solve a problem that is in the best interests of all, including the good cops.
 
68Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 10:19
I'm really not comfortable with the good/bad distinction. In general terms people aren't that simple. It's even worse to apply it to people who's lives are tangled in the moral complexities of being a cop.

For example, the cop who is regularly too aggressive and physical with suspects might be regarded by most of us as a "bad cop". The same guy might also be the first person dangerously forego his own safety to help someone.

And what about the majority of cops who rarely or never step over the line, but also tend to keep their mouths shut rather than report abusive behavior every time they see it?
 
69Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 11:05
Frankly, the distinction is less important to me than the attempts to continue hero worshiping all cops as a means to sidestep any real reforms on any level.

Virtually all cops are good virtually always. We need to do away with institutional and procedural bias which gives cover to cops when they betray public trust regardless of how good they are at other times. That means a clean and transparent process which doesn't assume the requirement to overly praise people, as though that is the grease in the wheel.

We can start by dialing down the blurring between cops and the military.
 
70sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sun, Feb 01, 2015, 11:15
Cop holds snowballing teens at gunpoint

I was taught, the weapon doesnt clear its holster, unless you have need of pulling the trigger. It is NOT, an intimidation tool.
 
71Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sun, Feb 01, 2015, 18:01
Are you sure they weren't talking about your penis?
 
72Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 09:52
This is my weapon, this is my gun
This one's for fighting, this one's for fun
 
73chode
      ID: 05331014
      Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 10:34
Re: 65 - Thanks for the response, although I'd disagree that an acknowledgment like that in a thread like this is "base political correctness." Never more easily demonstrated or clearly evidenced by ...

Re: 66 - "No." Of course. The feel-good activist at his worst, all puff-puff and no give. Keep up the good fight, brother.

Re: 67 - Ha! A simple premise question (addressed to MITH and SZ) that you just *had* to weigh in on with a misplaced shot at "hero worship." Expect nothing less out of you (that you felt compelled to respond, or the substance of that response), although I will commend you for managing not to make a blanket statement that purports to inform everyone of how "the Right" feels about everything. The RGPD has spoken (again), everyone. Carry on.

Post 68 is an excellent post with very clear perspective, making a point that I think has been glossed over (or never even been raised) in this thread yet. MITH and I are infrequently aligned but he and PV still have the goods.

 
74Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 11:25
Not sure what you man by "misplaced shot" about hero worship. From my perspective, there are constant attempts to sweep away the actions of bad cops because of the notion that cops overall do good things and deserve our respect and so what they do badly should be marginalized or contextualized away.

Fighting bad cops is not in opposition to the idea of the value of cops in general. But this idea that we do not need to hold cops to a higher standard (to, in fact, worship them) gets in the way of our duty as citizens.

This isn't a "Right" or "Left" issue, IMO, which is why I have not responded in that way.

But hey--unlike you guys, solving this problem is actually part of my job, so what do I know, right?
 
75Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 11:38
My contention is there is no "problem" in my city. If there is a problem in your city then fix it, but dont say because your cops are messed up, then everyone's cops are messed up. Don't create a national issue out of your local problem. We dont want our cops subjected to ambush by nutjobs who have taken up arms in our city to fight your perception of cops in your city.
 
76Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Tue, Feb 03, 2015, 14:13
I think that is fair.
 
77sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 11:57
re my post 70:

It appears, more was going on than that video depicts. Apparently, LEOs were responding to a 911 call;

'There was no snowball fight': Video showing New Rochelle police officer pulling gun on teens not what it seems: cops

He said police were responding to a 911 call around 4 p.m. Friday that a teenager standing in a group of six near the Heritage Houses had pulled a gun from his waistband and pointed it at another person.

“We dispatched several cars to the area. Police officers got out of their cars and one of the individuals bent down, adjusted something in his waistband and ran,” Murphy said.

As one officer took off after the suspect, another remained with the five teens who did not run, Murphy said.

“Don’t f-----g move, guys,” the cop shouts in one of two clips that were sent to the Talk of the Sound.

Two teens can be seen in the video kneeling with their hands in the air. The officer frisks both of them before ordering them to stand up.

“The group was compliant,” Murphy said. “(At the same time) the other cop is in foot pursuit of the suspect that had the gun. The suspect runs into an apartment house and into an unknown apartment.”
 
78Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 12:17
So, was that a retraction?
 
79sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 12:20
if it walks like a duck....
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 23:35
I'm wondering if PD will be the first mayor to actually ask for a consent decree from the DoJ.
 
81Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 00:41
To do what?
 
82Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 09:07
Why do police shoot so many people in Albuquerque?
On the afternoon of March 16th, 2014, Albuquerque police received a 911 call from this part of town, a man complaining that someone was illegally camping in the foothills. Two Albuquerque officers responded and, sure enough, encountered James Matthew Boyd, a 38-year-old homeless man who suffered from schizophrenia. Boyd was clearly not well, ranting, telling police that he was an agent for the Defense Department.

Unauthorized camping is a petty misdemeanor. The officers could have told Boyd to move along and left it at that. But as Officer John McDaniel approached, Boyd wouldn't show his hands and McDaniel drew his gun. When the officers moved to pat him down, Boyd pulled out two small knives; the cops stepped back and called for backup, setting off a spectacular circus, with as many as 40 police officers reportedly joining the standoff. Among them were uniformed cops and members of the SWAT team, the tactical K-9 unit and the Repeat Offender Project squad.

Not present, Boyd's family would later allege in a complaint, was anyone clearly in charge. Keeping Boyd surrounded, often with guns drawn, officers tried to get him to surrender his knives. Finally, after three hours, Boyd prepared to come down from the hills. "Don't worry about safety," he told the police. "I'm not a fxxxing murderer." But as Boyd packed his stuff, both hands full of possessions, Detective Keith Sandy — who hours before, on arriving at the scene, boasted on tape that he was going to shoot "this fxxxing lunatic" with a Taser shotgun — tossed a flash-bang grenade, a nonlethal weapon designed to disorient and distract. Another officer fired a Taser at Boyd, and a third released a police dog on him. Boyd drew his knives again. Advancing on him, officers ordered Boyd to get down on the ground. Boyd began to turn away, and Detective Sandy of the ROP squad and Officer Dominique Perez of the SWAT team each fired three live rounds at him, hitting him once in the back and twice in his arms. Boyd collapsed, face down, crying out that he was unable to move. "Please don't hurt me," he said. Another officer fired three beanbag rounds from a shotgun at Boyd's prone body. The K-9 officer again loosed his German shepherd on Boyd, and the dog tore into his legs. Finally, officers approached and handcuffed him.

After roughly 20 minutes, Boyd was transported in an ambulance to the University of New Mexico hospital. In the final hours of his life, Boyd had his right arm amputated and his spleen, a section of his lung and a length of his intestines removed. At 2:55 a.m., he was pronounced dead. He was the 22nd person killed by the Albuquerque police in just more than four years.


Boyd's death conformed to many of the patterns governing deadly police violence in Albuquerque. Living with mental illness, Boyd fit the profile of the marginal Albuquerqueans most likely to find themselves shot to death by the city's police. The escalation of a low-level encounter to a standoff involving numerous heavily armed officers wasn't anything new, either. Few were surprised when footage from the lapel camera that Officer Sandy was required to keep running was inexplicably absent. And, as in so many previous officer-involved shootings, Boyd's death was followed by a press conference by the chief of police, who declared the shooting justified and painted Boyd as a dangerous criminal.

But Boyd's case was different. While Officer Sandy's camera didn't produce any video, the helmet-mounted camera of the other shooter, Officer Perez, captured the whole awful sequence of Boyd's death. When the video was released, more than 1,000 citizens rose up in protest unlike anything the city had seen in generations. Police used tear gas against demonstrators and sent out plainclothes officers to collect surveillance footage, further enraging the protesters.


Depending on how you measure things, you could follow the roots of violent law enforcement in New Mexico as far back as Pat Garrett, Billy the Kid and the rough justice of the Old West. But many observers trace Albuquerque's recent problems with excessive force to a decade ago. In 2005, officers Richard Smith and Michael King were killed in the line of duty by a man they were picking up for a mental-health evaluation. King had been an academy classmate of Police Chief Ray Schultz, who, in a tearful press conference after the killings, called it "one of the saddest days in the history of the Albuquerque Police Department." Inside the department, former officers say, the deaths were a turning point: Officer safety became the order of the day.

Thomas Grover, a lawyer and retired APD officer who now represents cops in personnel disputes with the department, says, "The general directive of the department became, 'You do what you've got to do to go home at night — and forget the citizens.' "
Perez and Sandy have been charged with murder.
 
83Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Thu, Feb 05, 2015, 16:39
It was also an unfortunate spate of 5 officer murders in a narrow timeframe that set off the Chicago police monster 'Jon Burge' onto his 16+year rampage.
 
84biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 08:51
Visiting ABQ in about a week. Hopefully I live through the experience. I'll bring my nice clothes.

You throw rocks? I shoot you dead!

 
85biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 09:02
I know that a lot of smaller towns don't pay as well, but we in Seattle really pay our cops well, and I'm sure many other large towns do to.

The question is, is it enough? Do cops with marginal education, who average twice what I make (I have a a PhD and invested a decade after college in education), deserve to shoot first and ask questions later, placing their lives as more important than, not just the suspects, but also the public at large? If so, why are they getting all that money?

Personally, I'd choose safety over money any day. But cops make a different choice when they choose that career. Or they did. Not so much any more, it seems to me.
 
86Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 12:48
No-Knock Raids Gone Awry
Prentiss, Mississippi on the night of December 26, 2001. Police carried out a no-knock raid on the home of Cory Maye during a raid on his neighbor Jamie Smith, a known drug dealer who lived on the other side of Maye’s duplex. Upon hearing a crash at his back door, Maye rushed to grab his .380 caliber pistol, unaware that the intruders were police. Maye fired 3 shots into Officer Ron Jones, killing him with a final fatal shot. About a gram of marijuana was found. In 2004, Cory Maye was sentenced to death by lethal injection. However, after 2 retrials and 10 years in prison, Maye signed a plea agreement pleading guilty to manslaughter and was released in 2011.


January 17, 2008 in Chesapeake, Virginia. 28-year-old Ryan Frederick heads to bed at 8:00 pm to be ready for his morning shift just to be immediately awoken by crashes at his front door. Frederick grabs his pistol, looks out of his room, and sees unknown intruders smashing in his door. In defense of himself and his home, he fired his gun at the front door, striking and killing Officer Jarrod Shivers. It should be noted that 3 days prior to the police raid, Frederick’s home had in fact been invaded. It would later be revealed that the intruder was actually a police informant that broke in and searched his home for probable cause for a raid. In February 2009, he was sentenced to the maximum 10 years in prison for manslaughter.


49-year-old Marvin Louis Guy. In the early hours of May 9th, 2014, police executed a no-knock raid on Guy’s home. Upon their forced entry, they were greeted with gunfire from Guy, resulting in the death of Officer Charles Dinwiddie. A warrant for the raid was issued after a police informant claimed to have seen cocaine being trafficked through Guy’s apartment. After the raid, only a glass pipe was found and nothing to suggest he was trafficking drugs. Marvin Guy is awaiting trial but is facing charges for capital murder which is punishable by death.


December 19th, 2014, 9 Burleson County Sheriff’s Department raided the home of Henry Magee and his pregnant girlfriend in. Magee believed that his home was being robbed, so to protect himself and his girlfriend, Magee grabbed his gun and opened fire on the unidentified intruders, resulting in the death of Adam Sowders.
The SWAT raid was executed based on information from yet another police informant. Officers believed they would find a major marijuana grow operation consisting of over a dozen six-foot plants and several firearms, including one that had been stolen from the department. Instead, they found 2 6-inch plants, under an ounce of marijuana, and 4 guns all legally owned by Magee.
 
87Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:11
<86> And what is your conclusion?
 
88Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:16
<85> Do cops with marginal education...

What stereotype are you trying to paint?
Do cops in Seattle not get any kind of training? If so, why hasn't its citizenry used the democracy that we've built to do something about it?
 
89Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:22
I don't understand the question.

The purpose of the post seems adequately explained in the hyperlinked text.

As in, 'Here are some examples of no-knock warrants gone awry.'

You're asking what I have concluded from this information? Nothing. It doesn't change anything I previously knew or opined about no-knock warrants.

Not so much a conclusion as an idea but perhaps you should be more upfront with your own opinions rather than ask me these silly cryptic questions about mine.
 
90biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:26
They get training. We have a police academy. I can't speak to the quality of the academy, though I'm not particularly impressed by the attitudes of some of the public safety officers who graduate from it, regarding, you know, the safety of the public.

I'm saying relative to other professions that generally garner a 6-figure salary, their education is comparably far less, presumably because their job is riskier.
 
91biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:32


Before you can become a police officer, you must complete 720 hours of basic law enforcement academy (BLEA) training within six months of hire to the law enforcement agency you are employing with. All academy recruits must be physically able to actively and fully participate in the defensive drills and other required physical activities in accordance with WAC 139-05-230. The WSCJTC requires you to pass a fitness ability test prior to entry into the academy.

Applicants should contact the agency they want to work for to inquire about minimum requirements; however, most law enforcement agencies require that you:
1. Be a U.S. Citizen.
2. Have a high school diploma or GED.
3. Have a valid Washington State driver’s license.


So, as far as education goes, 720 hours and a GED is about the extent of it.
 
92Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:34
<89> What, you need multiple choice, the essay question too difficult? Let me guess at what you might be trying to conclude from these anecdotes:

A) Some guys are involved with illegal drugs and the cops should do something about it

B) Some guys involved with drugs killed some cops and are being or have been prosecuted for it by an elected judge and a chosen jury. Isn't our system of government wonderful.

C) Some guys had some guns and used them to kill a cop and are being prosecuted for it, if they didnt have the guns they couldn't have done it and our cops wouldnt be at so much risk

D) none of the above
 
93biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:37
I don't know about MITH, but I'd have to respond D.

I don't recommend you take up writing multiple choice tests for a living.
 
94Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:44
Let me guess at what you might be trying to conclude

Again, I am not "trying to conclude" anything. I established that before your childish and antagonistic multiple choice options.

I'm sharing information, not trying to conclude anything. Information that meets my previously held conclusions, as I have already explained.

Would this have been easier for you to understand if posted in multiple choice form?

Perhaps you should grab a dictionary and look up "conclusion" because I don't see how you could repeatedly ask me for mine here while understanding the meaning of that word.

Failing that, maybe someone else can help me understand WTF Bean is talking about?
 
95Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:47
<90> So your concern is that:

A) Seattle cops are inappropriately paid?
B) Seattle cops are inadequately trained (18 weeks initially and ?? periodicly)
C) Specific Seattle cops are inappropriately concerned with protecting their own lives? Some have died because they didn't concern themselves enough, others are alive because they concerned themselves too much, and should be dead instead.
D) Specific Seattle cops have an attitude I dont care for and when I tell them that they work for me, they dont seem to understand where I am coming from...I've recorded their badge numbers and have informed my councilman, but it doesnt seem to do any good. I've voted for a different councilman and no joy still. I've ran for council myself, but nobody will vote for me.

Hey, just asking
 
96Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:51
<94> Must be very frustrating to not be able to make sense out of so many facts. Was your post just a cry for help?
 
97biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 13:53
I'll steal from MITH 51 (hey, don't call 511)

The part you miss (as you somehow believe we "are agreeing" on some level - the only "ideal" we share is that race problems are not universal) is that I believe the greater problems are cultural and systemic and not due to one particular kind of bad cop or another. I believe the training, the tactics, the hardware, the mentality and the culture are all changing for the worse.

The cause is the system. The individuals are mostly just the symptoms.
 
98Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 14:03
The only thing I'm frustratingly unable to make sense out of is you, Bean.

If you want to know my opinion of no-knock warrants, you could just ask, "Mith, what is your opinion of no-knock warrants?".

Your attempt is to appear clever is a juvenile and miscarried. Better luck next time.
 
99Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 14:07
<97> I had a supervisor who was very frustrated with a government agency we had to deal with frequently. That agency had a reputation of being lazy and unresponsive. I asked him how he thought that came about. He said, sometimes organizations develop their own attributes that are not reflective of the individuals within them.

I asked him him how it could be changed, and he told me that new blood had to join the group and help change it from within, an outsider could not do it, and it had to happen from the bottom up but a charismatic leader could help the new blood to change the culture.

Have you told your kids to become cops, or just teach them that cops suck?
 
100Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 14:13
<98> Mith, what is your opinion of no-knock warrants?
 
101Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 14:50
What exactly is wrong with you that makes this so difficult?



I think no-knock raids pose an exceptional danger to anyone inside the premises being raided, as displayed in this thread by posts 2, 11 and 18.

I think no-knock raids also pose an exceptional danger to police, as displayed here by post 86.

So I think a very high level of discretion should be applied to the deployment of no-knock raids.

But considering that the number of no-knock raids jumped from about 3,000 per day in the US in the early '80s to some 50,000 per day in the early '00s (and also considering some other info we come across, such as in post 41) there does not seem to be a lot of discretion applied to their deployment.

Further thoughts... I also think police are given too much leeway with regard to use of force in such raids. If you own a dog and your house is raided, you dog will almost definitely be shot, even if it poses no threat to police. Even if it is caged. Police don't seem to be held responsible for any damage done to the house, including broken doors and jambs, live rounds fired into walls, etc. This seems to be the case even when a raid turns out to be a mistake.

So I think police should be held accountable for the damage they cause when a suspect in a raid turns out to apparently not be involved in the activity they believed they were catching him in.
 
102biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 15:01
I have higher hopes for me son than a GED. It may not work out, but hey. He's pretty risk averse, so I don't think he would be all that into the profession.

I do take him to events where he can see the good side of policing, and I don't badmouth cops.

The last event was a traffic safety demonstration with a bunch of motorcycle cops, who were supposedly helping enforce traffic violations which are causing an epidemic of pedestrian and bike injuries and deaths.

Me and my boy walked up to one fine uniformed officer, and started trying to chat with him. All we could get was "how they had f'in made him come up here and stand in the fin' rain, wasting his time with public safety."

I walked away before he could teach my 6 year old any more swear words.

 
103Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 15:08
Balko: Dogs in a Deadly Crossfire
 
104Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 15:31
<101>I think no-knock raids pose an exceptional danger to anyone inside the premises being raided

I'm sure they do, but you aren't saying they aren't needed for law enforcement, are you? If you think its too easy to get the no-knock warrant that's a whole different discussion.

If you accept the premise that the cops are confident the person is guilty before the raid happens, then non-compliance by the suspect may be just more criminal behavior, not simply self-defense. When there is a resultant death from the event, the courts decide what happens, that's our American custom, codifed in law. You cant possibly be having a problem with that process, or is that your issue?

So I think a very high level of discretion should be applied to the deployment of no-knock raids.

The legal solution in place is to establish the thresholds for getting the warrant, and ensuring that the standards are enforced, that's a judge's job. The solution for the suspect is to not resist arrest in any way and to accept his fate of paying for his crime, if he is innocent why would he resist?

So I think police should be held accountable for the damage they cause when a suspect in a raid turns out to apparently not be involved in the activity they believed they were catching him in.

Seems reasonable. What if the suspect has a good lawyer and sues the city for damages, which the taxpayer pays for. Perhaps he's able to do this because the gunfight he started gave him time enough to destroy the evidence. So, the bottom line is some drug dealer has been selling drugs to your kids, the cops try to do something about it, the drug dealer gets off on some technicality and you get to pick up the bill. He makes so much money out of winning the lawsuit that he doesnt have to sell drugs anymore. Seems like a good plan, stan, wish I had thought of it.

So, if you are having a problem with how your local law enforcement is employing no-knock warrants, then maybe you should find out what the guidelines for its use are in your jurisdiction. If you suspect that a judge is not applying the law correctly, make sure he doesn't get re-elected. If its one of the dead cops that screwed it all up, you could circulate a petition to make sure his widow doesn't get any survivor benefits. But, if your real issue is that you want the cop to pay the bill for destroying the drug dealer's property during the raid and you think it isnt a bill the taxpayer should pay, then I guess I should respect that.
 
105Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 15:42
cops are confident the person is guilty ...

That's not the cop's job, frankly. And I'm not playing semantics here: Part of the problem with these no-knock warrants gone wrong is exactly this: That cops act as if their targets were all guilty of a crime and they act accordingly.

if he is innocent why would he resist?

First, in many cases they do not in fact, resist. But when armed men enter your home, a person's first response is not to say "hey, I'm guilty of something...better lie down." The instinct to preserve your home from armed invaders (regardless of guilt for something) isn't wrong.

And, of course, many of these no-knock warrants are served on the wrong house. And many of the victims are guilty of no crime at all.

The solutions you offer aren't going to affect a systematic problem, but merely contextualizes it into a series of seemingly unconnected events for which it is the people who have to clean up the mess. This has it backwards, IMO.

No-knock warrants are used far too often, partly because of a mentality on the police to treat people less like citizens and more like military targets where others in the area are simply collateral damage. We have lots and lots and lots of evidence of this.
 
106Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 15:46
<102> Yeah, well that sucks. Seems the cop may have needed a little pep talk from his sargeant. Wonder what would have happened if the Sargeant were made aware of it.
 
107Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 15:52
Mith: I think police should be held accountable for the damage they cause when a suspect in a raid turns out to apparently not be involved in the activity they believed they were catching him in.

Bean: ... the bottom line is some drug dealer has been selling drugs to your kids, the cops try to do something about it, the drug dealer gets off on some technicality.
Anyone miss that?



Or this one:
Mith: I think police should be held accountable for the damage they cause when a suspect in a raid turns out to apparently not be involved in the activity they believed they were catching him in.

Bean: But, if your real issue is that you want the cop to pay the bill for destroying the drug dealer's property during the raid and you think it isnt a bill the taxpayer should pay, then I guess I should respect that.
 
108Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 15:59
<105> Lets break it down a little here

Some vice guy suspects through informers that there is a house that drugs are being distributed out of.

He gathers additional evidence to confirm his suspicions.

He runs it up the flagpole and convinces his chief that a raid is a good idea

The chief takes it to the judge to get the warrant and the judge applies criteria to determine if it is warranted

The chief dispatches his specialists to make the bust, knowing the tactics they will employ. He and everyone else in this chain of events knows the guilt of the people involved, or we wouldnt be here in the first place. The element of surprise is all they have to close the case.

How can anything in this chain of events possibly go wrong?

All we got to deal with now is building the case, Barney "the hothead" Fyfe, Bonnie and Clyde, and Monday Morning Quarterbacking, right?
 
109Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:00
<107> Operative word apparently
 
110Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:01
He and everyone else in this chain of events knows the guilt of the people involved, or we wouldnt be here in the first place.

Foolish assertion.
 
111Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:03
Lets break it down a little here...

Bean's logical breakdowns are quite literally that.
 
112Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:04
<107> Maybe you missed this? Seems reasonable.
 
113Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:08
The government's morally dubious use of informants.
Late last month, the House Judiciary Committee held hearings on the death of the Kathryn Johnston, the 92-year-old Atlanta woman killed by police during a November 2006 drug raid on her home.


A subsequent investigation revealed that the entire chain of events up to and shortly after Johnston's death were beset with lies, planted evidence, and cover-up on the part of the narcotics cops. They fabricated an imaginary informant to get the search warrant for Ms. Johnston's home. They planted evidence on a convicted felon, arrested him, then let him off in exchange for his tip—which he made up from whole cloth—that they'd find drugs in Ms. Johnston's house.


More investigation revealed that this kind of behavior wasn't aberrant, but common among narcotics officers in the Atlanta Police Department. Police Chief Richard Pennington eventually dismissed or reassigned the entire narcotics division of the APD.

What came out at the hearings investigating Kathryn Johnston's death was even more disturbing.

In one eye-popping exchange, two congressmen—one Democrat and one Republican—confronted Wayne Murphy, the assistant director of the FBI Directorate of Intelligence about the way the FBI uses drug informants. Rep. Dan Lundgren, R-Calif., and Rep. William Delahunt, D-Mass., told Murphy they were troubled by reports that the FBI had looked the other way while some of its drug informants participated in violent crimes, and that the agency then failed to notify local authorities, leaving many of those crimes unsolved.

Lundgren and Delahunt said they were also troubled by reports that in order to protect the identity of its informants, the FBI had withheld exculpatory evidence from criminal trials, resulting in innocent people going to prison.


Shortly after the Johnston hearings concluded, another informant scandal emerged.

Jarrell Bray, a longtime informant for the Drug Enforcement Administration's Cleveland field office, admitted that with the cooperation of DEA agent Lee Lucas, he had repeatedly lied in court to secure the convictions of innocent people. Bray said he and Lucas fabricated evidence, falsely accused people who had done nothing wrong, then concocted bogus testimony to secure their convictions.

Bray's admission could result in dozens of overturned convictions.

There's nothing new about any of this. The problems with the use and abuse of drug informants have been known for years. Policymakers have just decided it's more important to keep up a brave front in the drug war than admit to the shortcomings. Bogus testimony from drug informants has led to wrongful arrest and/or incarceration of innocent people in Dallas, Texas; Hearne, Texas; St. Louis, Missouri; and Church Point, La.; to list just a handful of the more egregious examples.

In fact, more than 12 years ago, the National Law Journal ran a three-part series on the issue of drug informants. The magazine reviewed more than a thousand search warrants in four cities. It found widespread abuse with respect to the use of informants, and issued an urgent warning that "there is little or no oversight of the informant system," and that as a result, "the nation's system of justice is in danger."

Not much has changed.
 
114Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:10
<110> I think its quite literally the frame of mind of the cops who are actually going into the house uninvited are in. If you believe otherwise, you need to empathize a little better. If someone in this chain doesn't understand that, that is where the breakdown occurs.

What is a foolish assertion is that a cop is going to willingly break into a house to capture an armed suspect with a presumption of innocence.
 
115biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:15
You sound like a naive, trusting little schoolgirl.

 
116Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:16
You didn't say he and everyone involved earnestly believes in the suspect's guilt.

You said they know, which would be a foolish assertion. Abjectly foolish, in fact.

Of course it's equally foolish to believe that police are supposed to earnestly believe in the guilt of their suspects, as well.
 
117Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:21
<105> And, of course, many of these no-knock warrants are served on the wrong house. And many of the victims are guilty of no crime at all.

Now that is just incompetence. Got a pre-emptive solution?
 
118Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:22
Post 117: Got a pre-emptive solution?

Post 101: a very high level of discretion should be applied to the deployment of no-knock raids
 
119Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:26
No-knock warrants are used far too often

Maybe in your city

partly because of a mentality on the police to treat people less like citizens and more like military targets where others in the area are simply collateral damage.

I assure you that the United States military does not treat collateral damage with the callousness you imply. You've watched too many action movies. Perhaps you should find a better way to get your idea across.
 
120Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 16:52
<118> I want the cops to be able to bust drug dealers unimpaired, I want the judges to always judge correctly, I want the rules to be fair, well understood, and effective. I believe every reasonable person will agree with that.

So, it seems we agree in principal Mith, I would expect that what you propose as guiding principles in law, is in fact already the case. I would also hope when you discover something is amiss in your jurisdiction, that you are reacting to it and trying to fix it locally.

If you've got an example where someone's house was invaded that wasn't guilty in your jurisdiction, then you have enough to evoke public outrage in your community to fix the problem. But, as I have said many times before, if you've got a problem in your community, that doesn't mean that I have one in mine. Unfortunately, most of this discussion has been about someone else's backyard, not anyone in this forum's.

I hope one day we can all say in unison that the drug dealer is the problem, not the cop.
 
121Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:00
I would expect that what you propose as guiding principles in law, is in fact already the case.

It should be patently obvious to anyone who has read through this thread that this is not the case at all.

I would also hope when you discover something is amiss in your jurisdiction, that you are reacting to it and trying to fix it locally.

I have no idea why you are so concerned with local jurisdictions with regard to what are obviously national problems.

So my counter is that if you are so singularly concerned with addressing these issues at the local level only, and if you are as convinced as you say that your local police are not involved in any part of the issues here, then go find some other thread that you have a personal stake in. This discussion obviously doesn't concern you.
 
122Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:06
<121> It should be patently obvious to anyone who has read through this thread that this is not the case at all.

Do you have an excerpt from your local law that descrbes the criteria the judge is obliged to use before issuing the warrant? If you haven't even looked at it, then you miss the point.
 
123Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:09
Trust me. I haven't missed your point
 
124Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:10
<121> I have no idea why you are so concerned with local jurisdictions with regard to what are obviously national problems.

That is exactly my point, there is no OBVIOUS national problem. Is it the rule that's flawed, or is it the local application that is flawed?
 
125Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:12
If the rule is ambiguous enough that it allows for misuse in it's local applications, then the rule is the problem.
 
126Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:13
Common sense.
 
127Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:25
<115> You sound like a naive, trusting little schoolgirl.

I like to believe I sound more like the principal
 
128Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:32
The cops have a natural US vs THEM mentality. It's human nature. The public kinda shuns them. The risks are ever-present. The only people who really understand them are in their locker-room bunker.

Then you have some inexplicable urge to force pushing full-on military equipment into anyone's hands who a badge. Library guard? 'Take some bulletproof armor and an automatic.'

Then you have the entertainment industry romanticize swat teams and their tactics. They hate guns unless unless they're for big brother. Libs are now 'swatting' their enemies. You can look it up.

It's bad but it's gonna get worse.

Someday the cultural fad/meme 'zombie apocalypse' is gonna really twist law enforcement's head around to the dark side. I don't believe in coincidences.

When cultures are stressed enuff life can really get cheap.



It's all a disconnected mystery unless you can do math and you don't wear rose colored glasses..
 
129Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:33
<125> Does every state have No-knock law? Are there differences between state laws? What does the 4th ammendment have to do with this discussion?

Do we actually have a legitimate point and specific changes to law to suggest? Or are we just venting?

As they say in the Army: "The troops aren't happy unless they're complaining"
 
130Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:37
<128> I like that our police owe their loyalty locally and that our national defense is owned by the Federal Government and looks primarily outside our borders. Call me crazy.
 
131Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:38
Then there's runaway civil forfeiture. You always get more of what you make profitable.
 
132Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:41
I miss those quaint and secure days of old when we had the Posse Comitatus Act.

It's a mystery why it disappeared of course.
 
133Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:45
<131> What was Al Capone's crime again?
 
134Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 17:51
He went where the money was.
 
135Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Thu, Feb 12, 2015, 20:30
The Posse Comitatus Act didn't disappear. It still applies and was updated during Reagan's term last, as I recall.
 
136Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Sat, Feb 14, 2015, 00:35
Follow up to post 11.
 
137Mith
      ID: 3692387
      Sat, Feb 14, 2015, 16:00
LA Times
Two Philadelphia police officers were charged Thursday with beating a man on a scooter nearly two years ago and lying about it, resulting in wrongful charges against him.

A Philadelphia grand jury decided to charge Officers Sean McKnight and Kevin Robinson after the district attorney presented evidence. The use of prosecutor-led grand juries met deep scrutiny across the country last year after several high-profile investigations resulted in no charges for officers involved in the deaths of suspects in Ferguson, Mo., and New York City.

In Philadelphia, charges came after the surprise emergence of a surveillance video that shows two officers pummeling a scooter rider. The scene appeared to contradict the officers' original account of the incident, in which they had portrayed the suspect, Najee Rivera, as a violent and vicious attacker.

“The video undermined every aspect of the officers’ account of the incident," Philadelphia Dist. Atty. Seth Williams said at a televised news conference Thursday, appearing alongside Police Commissioner Charles H. Ramsey. "As a grand jury found, none of it was true -- except for the blows inflicted on Najee Rivera."

On May 29, 2013, McKnight and Kevin tried to pull over Rivera, who was riding a scooter. Rivera told the grand jury that he became frightened and sped away after the officers got out of their car with their batons extended and said, "Come here!" according to grand jury charging documents.

In the officers' original account of the incident, they said Rivera then fell off his scooter and attacked one of them.

"While running towards my partner I saw the Hispanic male grab my partner with both his hands by his chest upper vest area and slammed him into a brick wall of the building. The Hispanic male held my partner up against the wall and began throwing elbows towards my partner’s face and head area," McKnight said in a signed statement, echoing the account given by Robinson, according to the charging documents. Both officers are white.

The officers said they they had to beat Rivera to subdue him. Rivera faced charges including assault and resisting arrest based on their statements.

But officials said those charges were dropped after Rivera's girlfriend canvassed the neighborhood after the incident and found surveillance video from a local store that "directly refuted" the officers' "false and inaccurate" statements, according to the documents.

Williams, the district attorney, gave a blistering account of what the footage showed.

"In reality, Rivera didn’t just fall off his scooter as officers approached in their patrol car. Instead, one of them actually reached out of the window and clubbed Rivera in the head; the car bumped the scooter and Rivera fell to the ground," Williams said at the news conference.

"Both officers then got out and immediately placed Rivera in their control. He never resisted, he never struck them, he never fought back, they just started hitting him," Williams continued. "First, one held him against the wall, while the other beat him with a baton. Then they held him on the ground and beat him some more, with both fist and baton.

"There’s no doubt that the blows were connecting, because the video also had audio, and you can hear Mr. Rivera from the time he fell off his scooter, writhing in pain, screaming for help."

The beating fractured Rivera's right orbital bone of his face, swelled one of his eyes shut, and left him with cuts requiring stitches and staples, according to the charging documents.

The grand jury recommended eight charges for each officer: criminal conspiracy, aggravated assault, reckless endangerment, tampering with public records, false reports to law enforcement, obstruction, and official oppression.


Williams' office has recently pressed charges in two different cases alleging police misconduct. On Monday, Sgt. Brandon Ruff was accused of providing false identification to law enforcement for giving a false name while dropping off guns belonging to other people, according to a news release.

On Jan. 22, a homicide detective, Ronald Dove, was charged with several counts related to obstructing a murder investigation after officials said they discovered Dove had been hiding the prime suspect.

The charges against Dove also came after a grand jury investigation, and Williams said Thursday that prosecutors had a responsibility to use grand juries to hold police accountable for abuses.

"We don't need to create other agencies, other entities," such as civilian review boards to investigate police abuse, Williams told the Los Angeles Times in a phone interview Thursday. "It's my responsibility as [district attorney] to investigate crimes. If the citizens believe I can't do that, or won't do that, the recourse is to get rid of me."
...says the guy who had no clue these officers had falsely accused and savagely beat Najee Rivera until two years later, when the victim's girlfriend did his job for him. Sure, the system works exactly as it is supposed to.

Tell it to Marcus Jeter (post 4 in this thread) who was looking at 5 years in prison for the benefit of having the living shlt kicked out of him by police, until the incriminating dashboard video, which the cops attempted to hide, finally emerged.
 
138Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Sun, Feb 15, 2015, 11:54
The Posse Comitatus Act didn't disappear. It still applies and was updated during Reagan's term last, as I recall. - PD

Executive orders of Bush2 and Obama have evicerated it and turned it on it's head, now doing the exact opposite of what it was intended to accomplish, namely prohibiting the standing army from being used against US citizens.

Those two presidents simply proclaimed that in the future they intended to do exactly what the act prohibited whenever they felt like it.
 
139Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Sat, Feb 21, 2015, 07:37
Sun Sentinel
Bleiweiss, 34, the former Broward Sheriff's deputy accused of intimidating undocumented immigrants into performing sex acts with him, cut a deal sending him to prison for just five years, without having the stain of a sex-offender status following him the rest of his life.

The deal was entered Thursday morning. Bleiweiss pleaded guilty to 14 counts of armed false imprisonment, 15 counts of battery and four counts of stalking. He will also serve 10 years of probation and have to undergo a psycho-sexual evaluation, Broward Circuit Judge Michael Robinson ordered.


In all, he faced more than 70 charges, many accusing him of sexual battery. A conviction on all charges in any one of the cases [there were 20! -mith] would have sent him to prison for decades, if not life.
 
140Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 09:40
New Cleveland Police Union Boss Stands by Cops Who Killed 12 Year Old Tamir Rice
Nothing gets Steve Loomis churning faster than questions about what happened on the day that Tamir Rice was shot.

His constant refrain: The police are heroes misunderstood by a public being fed a steady, media-generated, activist-fueled diet of false information about how they do their jobs.

“Tamir Rice is an absolute example of that,” Loomis said. “There’s this perception that police just slid up in the car and shot him. That’s not reality from the officers’ perception. They acted based on what they knew at the time.”

This is doublespeak disguised as plain language. Note how he employs the words reality and perception to distort what actually happened—what we know happened. Surveillance video clearly showed a police vehicle pulling up alongside Rice; officer Timothy Loehmann then shot Rice immediately—not after some period of time in which Rice had failed to obey clear instructions, or threatened the officers, or presented some reasonable danger to anyone, but immediately. The officers' perception isn't what matters (or shouldn't be). Perception isn't reality; reality is reality. And the reality is that the cops were in the wrong. They were wrong that Rice was a danger, and they acted wrongly in response. Why is it it considered an acceptable defense when a cop says, I made unreasonable assumptions, acted rashly, and killed someone who had done nothing wrong and was no threat—but hey, my perception was solid...? No one, except an officer of the law, could get away with such a ludicrous explanation.
See post #2 for more on the case of Tamir Rice.
 
141Seattle Zen
      ID: 1610533022
      Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 11:13
Steve Loomis is disgusting. "There's this perception"... It's properly called "video footage" and you can't spin away what it shows.
 
142Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 14:49
The Case of Earl Sampson in Miami Gardens, FL
Listening to that story, I heard evidence of multiple cops engaged in serious, willful misconduct over several years. But that isn't what troubled me most. I know that most cops would never behave so egregiously toward an innocent. What I found alarming was the fact that those other cops didn't stop or report the bad apples.

In fact, even after higher-ranking officers were alerted to Sampson's experience, that did not put an end to his repeated jailing. Neither a public defender nor a judge was able to spot or stop this miscarriage of justice either. No one inside the system successfully exposed or remedied the abusive situation. Things only changed for Sampson when the store owner got video evidence and took it to the media. And even then, the egregious misbehavior of the police officers went unpunished.

Most of the perpetrators are still on the job.
 
143Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Tue, Feb 24, 2015, 21:07
Guardian
The Chicago police department operates an off-the-books interrogation compound, rendering Americans unable to be found by family or attorneys while locked inside what lawyers say is the domestic equivalent of a CIA black site.


Alleged police practices at Homan Square, according to those familiar with the facility who spoke out to the Guardian after its investigation into Chicago police abuse, include:

Keeping arrestees out of official booking databases.

Beating by police, resulting in head wounds.

Shackling for prolonged periods.

Denying attorneys access to the “secure” facility.

Holding people without legal counsel for between 12 and 24 hours, including people as young as 15.

At least one man was found unresponsive in a Homan Square “interview room” and later pronounced dead.


The secretive warehouse is the latest example of Chicago police practices that echo the much-criticized detention abuses of the US war on terrorism. While those abuses impacted people overseas, Homan Square – said to house military-style vehicles, interrogation cells and even a cage – trains its focus on Americans, most often poor, black and brown.

Unlike a precinct, no one taken to Homan Square is said to be booked. Witnesses, suspects or other Chicagoans who end up inside do not appear to have a public, searchable record entered into a database indicating where they are, as happens when someone is booked at a precinct. Lawyers and relatives insist there is no way of finding their whereabouts. Those lawyers who have attempted to gain access to Homan Square are most often turned away, even as their clients remain in custody inside.


One man in January 2013 had his name changed in the Chicago central bookings database and then taken to Homan Square without a record of his transfer being kept, according to Eliza Solowiej of Chicago’s First Defense Legal Aid. (The man, the Guardian understands, wishes to be anonymous; his current attorney declined to confirm Solowiej’s account.) She found out where he was after he was taken to the hospital with a head injury.

“He said that the officers caused his head injuries in an interrogation room at Homan Square. I had been looking for him for six to eight hours, and every department member I talked to said they had never heard of him,” Solowiej said. “He sent me a phone pic of his head injuries because I had seen him in a police station right before he was transferred to Homan Square without any.”


On February 2, 2013, John Hubbard was taken to Homan Square. Hubbard never walked out. The Chicago Tribune reported that the 44-year old was found “unresponsive inside an interview room”, and pronounced dead. After publication, the Cook County medical examiner told the Guardian that the cause of death was determined to be heroin intoxication.


Police often have off-site facilities to have private conversations with their informants. But a retired Washington DC homicide detective, James Trainum, could not think of another circumstance nationwide where police held people incommunicado for extended periods.

“I’ve never known any kind of organized, secret place where they go and just hold somebody before booking for hours and hours and hours. That scares the hell out of me that that even exists or might exist,” said Trainum, who now studies national policing issues, to include interrogations, for the Innocence Project and the Constitution Project.

Regardless of departmental regulations, police frequently deny or elide access to lawyers even at regular police precincts, said Solowiej of First Defense Legal Aid. But she said the outright denial was exacerbated at Chicago’s secretive interrogation and holding facility: “It’s very, very rare for anyone to experience their constitutional rights in Chicago police custody, and even more so at Homan Square,” Solowiej said.


Tracy Siska, a criminologist and civil-rights activist with the Chicago Justice Project, said that Homan Square, as well as the unrelated case of ex-Guantánamo interrogator and retired Chicago detective Richard Zuley, showed the lines blurring between domestic law enforcement and overseas military operations.

“The real danger in allowing practices like Guantánamo or Abu Ghraib is the fact that they always creep into other aspects,” Siska said.

“They creep into domestic law enforcement, either with weaponry like with the militarization of police, or interrogation practices. That’s how we ended up with a black site in Chicago.”

 
144Boldwin
      ID: 101311815
      Wed, Feb 25, 2015, 06:10
Rahm feels right at home.
 
145Khahan
      ID: 31247615
      Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 16:47
another officer lost his life in the line of duty
 
146sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 21:59
One small town's police have killed more people than police in Germany and the UK combined

With just 59,000 residents, the Pasco police department in Washington state have shot and killed four people in the past six months—more than police in the entire United Kingdom, which has over 60,000,000 citizens, in the past three years combined. In fact, Pasco police are on pace to have more police shootings than Germany, with 80,000,000 citizens, over the current 12 month period.

We have a SERIOUS problem in this country.
 
147Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 01:05
Sounds to me like Pasco County has a problem
 
148biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 01:20
I have no idea if Pasco has a problem.

Or I should say, any more of a problem than other parts of our country. It may be just their turn to add to the hundreds and hundreds of "justifiable homicides" our police commit every year in this country. That our police are blowing people away at orders of magnitude higher rates than other countries is, as Spock would say, fascinating.
 
149Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 07:56
Albuquerque PD Encrypts Police Videos Before Releasing Them In Records Requests.
Now the APD's being sued. The firm is seeking not only access to the password-protected videos, but also damages and legal fees. According to the firm, access to these videos is crucial to determining whether or not Gail Martin has a legitimate civil rights case. Without them, the firm is no better positioned to make this call than the general public, which has only seen the lead-in and aftermath of the shooting.

This isn't the APD's only legal battle related to its IPRA non-compliance. Late last year, KRQE of Albuquerque sued it for "serial violations" of the law.
 
150Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 09:46
<149> Better Call Saul.
 
151biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 10:23
I was just in abq, and better call Saul billboards were everywhere. I am guessing s local ambulance chaser coopted breaking bad, but don't watch the show, so not sure.
 
152biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 10:26
The homeless were very well behaved, BTW. Not sure threat of murder was keeping them friendly or not. Probably works pretty well, as long as you ignore the bill of rights.
 
153Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 10:44
My nephew, David, lives in ABQ, I stopped to see him on the way to Spring Training in PHO. He tells me that there is good reason why ABQ was chosen as the setting for breaking bad.

Consistent with my theme here, I believe that it's a local issue. The residents of ABQ don't need any help from the federal government, or people who don't live there. If they do, they can use their political system to ask for it.

I suspect that ABQ gets more than its fair share of homeless in the Winter. Whenever I think of the plight of the homeless, I come back to American jobs for Americans as the solution. Everything looks like a nail to me, sorry.
 
154biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 12:15
As someone who works with a number of social workers, homeless generally have such serious untreated mental health issues that most are unemployable. If you think jobs are the answer, you are asking the wrong question.

It was 10_degrees and snowing in abq. Seattle weather is far kinder to the homeless.
 
155biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 12:18
OT: on my bikeride home yesterday, I nearly ran into a weel coiffed middle aged dude skipping merrily across a busy road. Buck naked.

Fortunately for him the EMTs got there before the police.
 
156Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 13:25
bili,

I know you dont use hair styling as a primary profiling criteria for mental illness, but what makes you think that anyone else does?

I fully understand that many homeless are that way because of the need for government supported facilities and treatment for mentally ill. I have family members that have been treated for mental illness and drug abuse, so I have lived that in a very personal way. Drug abuse is both a pitfall for and a creator of the mentally ill. Mental illness is no joke.

For many, drug abuse can re-wire the brain to make the user perceive the world around them in a way that is far outside of acceptable societal norms.

The distinction for most people to appreciate is that mental illness and homelessness are not equivalent conditions. Many homeless are that way because of the lack of opportunities, many people who have homes are mentally ill. Homeless people who are not mentally ill can be helped with jobs. If they are not drug abusers and/or mentally ill when they become homeless, that state may not continue as depression and helplessness becomes the prevalent state of mind for them. The end result is that by leaving them unemployed you in effect drive them to crime, drugs and mental illness.

Finding meaningful employment and a normal life for someone who is mentally ill, homeless and addicted to drugs is a challenge that only a saint is capable of meeting. I wish that our society could afford to give these people more attention. I wish that more family members were better equipped to help their loved ones when the signs of mental illness first become apparent. I wish that cops could be divinely inspired to know exactly what to do when dealing with what they perceive to be a dangerous person. I havent found a genie to grant me these wishes though.

Our society has decided that we can fix the drug and crime problem with law enforcement. I believe that is the correct approach. You fix the homelessness problem with providing homes (through employment). You fix these underlying problems and you will reduce the numbers of mentally ill.

Identifying the mentally ill and creating an effective solution for that is far more difficult and few know where to start.
 
157biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 14:20
I was in approximate agreement until you stated we could not afford to adequately care for our mentally I'll. Of course we can; we choose not to.

An awesome experiment that will never happen would be to fire half our cops and hire 4 social services providers for every fired cop (approximately the salary differential in Seattle).

I predict we would have a far better, safer society, and we would get a large positive return on our investment, in terms of human capital, GDP, and morality.
 
158biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 14:43
I think that fact that he prancing around naked was also a clue, though jaywalking in Seattle (gasp!) Might we a clearer indicator. The mans grooming was suggestive that he was likely not homeless. Put him in a suit and he looks like an investment banker. Again, this was OT, and very tangential to my point.
 
159Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 19:46
<157> Sure, we just hand out more parking tickets, funding problem solved. /sarcasm off

Though the VA provides some relief to the national problem, generally its the state government that bears much of the financial burden for housing and caring for the mentally ill when insurance, charity and family wealth cannot meet the need. Empirical evidence would lead most to believe that state voters dont find this to be an important investment.
 
160Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 20:56
Perhaps. But they still should be taken care of regardless.
 
161biliruben
      ID: 229341622
      Sun, Mar 08, 2015, 01:49
That's what the albuquerque police are for.

Full Circle!!!!
 
162Mith
      ID: 8018814
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 09:40
"They tried to make me a convict. It broke me financially, bankrupted me. I used my life savings, not to mention, I lost my kids,"
It started when a friend concerned for Chadwick's emotional well-being called Missouri City police to Chad's Sienna apartment where he'd been distraught, drinking and unknown to anyone, had gone to sleep in the bathtub.

A SWAT team was summoned.

"They told a judge I had hostages. They lied to a judge and told him I had hostages in my apartment and they needed to enter," said Chadwick.


"While I had my hands up naked in the shower they shot me with a 40 millimeter non-lethal round," said Chadwick.

A second stun grenade soon followed.

"I turned away, the explosion went off, I opened my eyes the lights are out and here comes a shield with four or five guys behind it. They pinned me against the wall and proceeded to beat the crap out of me," said Chadwick.

That's when officers shot the unarmed Chadwick in the back of the head with a Taser at point blank range.

"They claimed I drew down with a shampoo bottle and a body wash bottle," said Chadwick.

And it wasn't over.

"They grabbed me by my the one hand that was out of the shower and grabbed me by my testicles slammed me on my face on the floor and proceeded to beat me more," said Chadwick.

Chadwick, who hadn't broken a single law when SWAT burst through his door, was taken to the Ft. Bend County Jail with a fractured nose, bruised ribs and what's proven to be permanent hearing loss.

He was held in an isolation cell for two full days.

"Instead of apologizing to this man and asking let us see what we can do to help you to make you whole again, they concocted criminal charges against this man, one after another, after another," said Quanell X who believes the prosecution of Chadwick was designed to fend off civil liability.

Ft. Bend County District Attorney John Healy sought to indict Chadwick on two felony counts of assaulting a police officer, but a Grand Jury said no law was broken.

It could have stopped there, but Healy's prosecutors tried misdemeanor charges of resisting arrest, calling more than a dozen officers to testify. Those charges were dropped as well.

A month ago, three years after the SWAT raid, a jury found Chad Chadwick not guilty of interfering with police. With tears in their eyes members of the jury offered the exonerated defendant comforting hugs.


Ft. Bend County District Attorney John Healy declined to comment on camera, but did say he stands by his decision to prosecute Chadwick, despite the multiple no-bills and not guilty verdict.

Asked how much the case cost taxpayers, Healy said "I wasn't keeping a tally.
I suspect this guy's problem was not that he needed a job.

So Bean will have to shrug this one off with his "human condition" excuse.

If Khahan is reading this, perhaps he can weigh in on it just being a case of a "few bad apples" (or ten, plus the entire prosecutor's office) making the rest of their colleagues look bad. Relentlessly. For four years.

 
163Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 11:59
This entire story sounds pretty fishy. First, what exactly did this "friend" tell the cops and why? Second, why would a police department respond with SWAT for what the author would tell you was a suicide prevention? Something about this story sounds like BS.

If I were this Chad guy, I think I might lose this "bff".
 
164biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 12:13
I have a lawyer friend who sees this all the time. Cops make a mistake, and in order to cover their ass, they slam the victim with made-up charges.

We have virtually guaranteed police in our country that there will be no repercussions for any behavior, no matter how heinous. This is what we should expect as a result.
 
165biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 12:15
"Resisting and Obstructing". They should just hard-code it into the report template. He sees in a virtually any use of force case.
 
166Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 12:24
As to what happened to Chad afterward with "charges designed to fend off civil liability." I'll accept that a jury came to an appropriate conclusion.

There are two things I take away from this beyond some corrupt practices in Ft Bend and some out of control SWAT guys acting like out of control SWAT guys. 1) The motivation for coverup is CYA to protect your job and avoid financial responsibility. How soon will it be before cops have to have malpractice insurance, like the medical profession? What would be the tax implications of a lost police department lawsuit?2) Well meaning people who call the Police for help are often misguided and can be the catalyst for bigger problems than the one they seek to fix. Another case in point for that perspective is the Walmart shooting in Beavercreek OH.
 
167biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 12:32
The main problem that people have is that they think cops are "Public Safety Officers", and that they will make a situation better.

That, unfortunately, isn't necessarily true.
 
168Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 13:15
bili,

I understand your frustration, and that of so many people who haven't figured out why we have cops. No matter what euphemism we like to apply to them, their primary function is LAW ENFORCEMENT.

When they are called to the scene, they instinctively look for someone who is willfully breaking the law and arrest or apply the appropriate citation. When on patrol they are looking for suspicious behavior and reminding criminals that they are being watched. This is where probable cause comes in.

If you are a law abiding citizen, you'll respect this and likely welcome it once you get past the inconvenience of being stopped. You will cooperate fully, respecting their authority and sacrifice. You will likely be treated fairly as a result.

If you are not a law abiding citizen, or you are simply a rebel, you will likely look at the cops as bad guys and seek to point out their flaws whenever you get the chance. Unscrupulous lawyers will no doubt help you in this endeavor. Anarchist authors of articles will fuel that fire as well.

There was a time in our history that an apology for making a mistake was enough. Even if it resulted in injury. Unfortunately we no longer live in that day. If a cop apologizes for his mistake, its an admission of guilt and he could easily be made to pay for that dearly. City governments would be made to pay for that as well, and that may be the motivation of legal counsel in some cases.

Nobody but the most naive thinks that any cop handles every situation exactly as it should be handled. We see ideal cops on TV, and think that all cops should be and are up to the task of being just like that guy.

Anyway, hindsight has a way of shining light on bad decisions in all human endeavors. More often than not, people are anxious to apologize for their mistakes and move on. Throw a lawyer into the equation and all perspective goes out the window.
 
169Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 13:49
I'll accept that a jury came to an appropriate conclusion.

Which jury would that be?

Are you talking about the grand Jury that acquitted him of two felony counts of assaulting a police officer?

Or are you talking about the trial jury that acquitted him of interfering with police, which was after the prosecutor was unable to get charges of resisting arrest to stick - despite testimony of 10 police officers against Chadwick?
 
170Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 13:56
If you are a law abiding citizen, you'll respect this and likely welcome it once you get past the inconvenience of being stopped. You will cooperate fully, respecting their authority and sacrifice. You will likely be treated fairly as a result.

I would suggest you tell that to the families of John Crawford, Aiyana Stanley-Jones, Marcus Jeter, Bounkham Phonesavanh, Yvette Smith and Najee Rivera? Just to name a few?
 
171Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 14:14
So much anger Mith, were you personally involved in these cases? Do you live in Ft Bend? In Indiana? Have relatives there? Why didn't Al Shaprton and Jessie Jackson show up in Ft Bend? Where's the protest march?

What is it you expect people to do once you get them all riled up about something that happened to someone they don't even know, in a town run by a mayor they didn't elect? It's a local problem that the people of Ft Bend need to address. They have the option of requesting the help of the DoJ. I don't think they need to worry about the DoJ tazing them if called.
 
172Seattle Zen
      ID: 301361318
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 14:17
There was a time in our history that an apology for making a mistake was enough. Even if it resulted in injury. Unfortunately we no longer live in that day.

Bean, how in the hell could you believe that an apology is all that is necessary from the police in the case MITH posted in 162?

I could see some people arguing that the officers and the prosecutor should only be fired while others urge criminal charges be brought. Payment for damages is a given.

Don't you believe in holding people accountable for their actions, Bean? Cop apologists often believe that only some people need be held to that standard.

If cops need only apologize, not only will the stories like 162 happen more frequently, they won't even be newsworthy and few people will ever hear them.
 
173Seattle Zen
      ID: 301361318
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 14:25
It's a local problem that the people of Ft Bend need to address.

Well, at least you labeled it a "problem", Bean, I guess that's progress.

Do you realize that this was the response from the majority of the nation 50 years ago regarding racial segregation? Though, it was called "a local issue", not a problem. If the poor, black people of X want to address this issue, they can petition, vote, etc...

That seems to be your stock response to everything, Bean. We've heard it all before.
 
174Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 15:32
S Z,

I was alive 50 years ago, my pastor was actively involved in the civil rights movement, my church was integrated. I recall putting flyers for Carl Stokes in doors during his campaign for Mayor.

My family members were vocal spokesmen for Civil Rights in the White community. My older brother was student council president in the city's only magnet trade school with high school boys across the city immediately after the Hough riots. But when busing closed all of the neighborhood schools, and there weren't enough white kids left to spread across the city, my sister converted to catholicism so her kids wouldn't get bused, and was quickly invited to become a deacon in the congregation.

I had a friend who lost her brother in the Kent State shootings, and many friends who lost their brothers in Viet Nam. I had four uncles and several cousins, who were deployed to Viet Nam, three of which came back with Purple Hearts. So, yes, I protested our involvement in Viet Nam until its end, despite the objection of my mother's brothers. My family has had a long history of service, but I could not abide that war. I didn't join the Air Force until I was 28.

After graduation from college I campaigned for Dennis Kucinich for Mayor of Cleveland, and worked in his administration in the City's department that administered the CETA program. So, I think, its a safe bet that my politics aren't those of a right wing a$$hole, and I am guessing that my resume of civil unrest eclipses most on this forum.

Yes, I understand the lyrics of Neil Young's "Southern Man" and Lynryd Skynrd's response in "Alabama". For what it's worth, I also remember some lyrics of a Buffalo SPringfield song that were something like "stop children what's that sound, everybody look whats going down". So I doubt you have much wisdom to impart to me in these areas, but I am open to learning new things or even being reminded of ideas lost to time.

Most of the system of checks and balances for police authority were put in to place during these times. Some would like you to not be aware of them. Others would prefer to start public protests, even before they allow this system to do its job. Still others would incite people to resist authority before it is a danger, often unwittingly.

Check out that Buffalo Springfield song.
 
175Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 17:13
<172> Don't you believe in holding people accountable for their actions, Bean?

Absolutely I do. I am not privy to how this thing was reported that would warrant a SWAT response, but I am guessing the picture painted for the PD was one of need for a SWAT response. What accountability is there for the escalated call for help is there?

How about the accountability for the person who called in the cops in Beavercreek? what accountability for the violence and looting that Al Sharpton and others inspired in the aftermath of Ferguson?

Yes, I am all in when it comes to accountability, and I am all in when it comes to having a fair system of judging who should be accountable and for what. I am also all in for allowing local governments to govern themselves and for their people to participate in their own government.
I'm all in for truth justice and the American way. I also believe in forgiveness and salvation and all of those nice things too. Vote for me and I'll set you free, there will be two chickens in every pot!

Then there is practical fiscal reality, lawsuits, differences of opinion, busy bodies and necessary social order etc. that just seem to get in the way of ideals.
 
176Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 17:55
From the linked article:
A SWAT team was summoned.

"They told a judge I had hostages. They lied to a judge and told him I had hostages in my apartment and they needed to enter," said Chadwick.

Chadwick did own a single shotgun, but had threatened no one, not even himself. Chadwick's firearm possession apparently prompted SWAT to kick in his door, launch a stun grenade into the bathroom and storm in, according to Chadwick, without announcing their identity.

"While I had my hands up naked in the shower they shot me with a 40 millimeter non-lethal round," said Chadwick.

A second stun grenade soon followed.
 
177Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 17:58
From the article concerning why a SWAT team was summoned and why the SWAT team thought there were hostages:
"0"
 
178Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 18:18
I am guessing the picture painted for the PD was one of need for a SWAT response

See the story of Kenneth Chamberlain in post 16.
 
179Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 18:41
Mith, if its your intent to shock people about what can happen if a police department is allowed to get out of control and is helped by their local justice system in a cover up, then this article surely paints that picture well despite the lack of details. A jury decided, and I said earlier I accept the jury's decision, and assume those of Ft Bend do as well. How things will play out from here is for the people of Ft. Bend to decide, not some guys on a rotoguru forum..

However, extrapolating this one case to a growing concern for cops busting down any door any time for any reason anywhere in the country and beating people silly for no reason what so ever is a pill that nobody should be swallowing.

I know your goal is to enlighten all the world to the possibility that the sky may be falling, not just in Texas, but elsewhere too (my apologies to those in South Bend, IN for thinking this happened there). I hope that's not true, but if we close our eyes and say "all cops suck" 10 times like we really mean it, we CAN make it come true.
 
180Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 19:19
extrapolating this one case to a growing concern for cops busting down any door any time for any reason anywhere in the country and beating people silly for no reason what so ever

Nope, that's not quite right...
 
181Boldwin
      ID: 49250121
      Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 20:06
That was one amazing post, that #174.
 
182sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Tue, Mar 17, 2015, 00:17
BODY CAM FOOTAGE SHOWS POLICE EXECUTING MENTALLY ILL MAN WITH SCREWDRIVER

can we PLEASE stop defending this bullshit and START prosecuting for criminal murder? MAYBE, that will send the requisite message and start to put a stop to this bullshit.
 
183Boldwin
      ID: 49250121
      Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 16:37
"The most frightening sentence in the english language" - Ronald Reagan

"Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help..."
He is a 57 year old disabled veteran with NO prior criminal record. In the video on his Facebook page you will see the result of an 18 hour siege by Nassau and Jacksonville SWAT teams. Why were they there? His ex-girlfriend claimed from Kentucky that he was suicidal. Nassau responded and he told them he was fine. They asked him to come out and he had the gall to exercise his constitutional rights and say NO. They had no reason to stay, but they did. When he still wouldn't come out (The police admit that he had an absolute right not to come out) they called in the "pros from Dover" the SWAT team from JSO. JSO showed up with their 4 semis full of equipment and 18 men. They too agree that he had committed no crime, but they too insisted he come out. They evacuated the Campground in whites motorhome had been parked for 6 years and blared sirens all night in an attempt to get him to come out.

By this time Mr. Desmond was scared to death to come out as he had read and heard about the JSO policy of "shoot first and ask questions later". Ultimately, they knocked a hole in the side of his motorhome supposedly to put in a phone to talk with him. They had cut off his electricity and his cellphone had died. Why they just could't have put the phone on his steps rather than knocking a 2 foot square hole in the side of the motorhome still baffles me.

The operator of the CIV that knocked the hole lied and said that Mr. Desmond pointed a gun"in his direction" and despite the fact he was behind 2 inches of solid steel and bulletproof glass, he was afraid.

They then went and got a warrant for his arrest for "Aggravated Assault on a Police Officer" It is interesting that despite the fact that 4 snipers with high powered rifles and scopes and 8 other officers in close proximity looking through the windshield and side windows, NO OTHER OFFICER saw Mr. Desmond point a gun in anyone's direction. But, they had to allege that Mr. Desmond had committed a crime in order to force him out.

Well, they got the warrant based on a lie and returned and decided to gas him out. On the door to Mr. Desmond's Motorhome was a sign that said "No smoking Oxygen in use." You see, Mr. Desmond suffers from COPD which is a serious condition that makes it difficult for him to breathe,. His neighbor, who took the video of the barbaric way they "took him down" had told them of his condition. Obviously, they didn't care.

Instead of putting the tear gas in the hole they had already knocked in the side of the motorhome, they knocked out another window and gassed him. The video is when he comes out, helpless and gasping for air. But, he was such a danger that they shot him twice with the 40 caliber gun with the "sponge round" He still has scars from the so-called "sponge rounds". If that wasn't enough they immediately based him. I can hear his screams in my dreams.

So, based on the actions of NCSO and especially JSO Swat, Mr. Desmond has been in jail with a $100,000.00 bond for a crime he did not commit. He has lost everything. His motorhome is ruined. Social Security has cut off his benefits while he is in jail awaiting trial. He is dead broke and even after I prove hi to be innocent at trial (God willing) he has nothing.

To make matters worse, he had just had all but 4 of his teeth pulled and was scheduled to get fitted for dentures the week after his arrest. The boom of the CIV hit him in the mouth after it came through the side of his motorhome and knocked out 3 of the 4 teeth he had left. He has been in jail for nearly a year with only one tooth his head. Nassau County would not even take him to get the dentures had already paid for. Can you imagine not having any teeth to eat with. Keep in mind, Nassau County has not provided him with a special diet due to not having but one tooth. Oh no, he only gets the "delicious" food everyone else gets.

How much do I believe in William Desmond? I am defending him for free. A word most lawyers, including myself, almost never use. I have actually spent a couple of thousand dollars out of my own pocket on transcript, subpoenas, investigator, photographs, etc.

Please share Mr. Desmond's story, after all, but for the grace of God this could happen to any of us. If any of you are in the vicinity of the Nassau County jail and you can find it in your heart, put a little money into his commissary account. It just might help him pass the remaining 60 days until his trial.

His trial is now scheduled for March 15, 2015. Ironically, that is the one year anniversary of his brutal and wrongful arrest.If you are interested in attending an interesting trial and lending moral support to a really nice man, the trial will be at the Yulee courthouse n/k/a the Robert M. Foster Justice Center near the FSJC campus off of SR 200 just off of I-95 near Yulee.

Please, if you can't do anything else, please keep William "Willie" Desmond in your prayers. Willie is a religious man, however, he is having difficulty in seeing God's plan in all of this.
 
184Boldwin
      ID: 49250121
      Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 16:39
Of course the police always get believed and the jury convicted him of aggravated assault on the lying POS police officers covering their @ss by lying about the gun pointed at them.
 
185Boldwin
      ID: 49250121
      Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 16:42
And of course you have a 'right to a fair trial' but the jury isn't allowed to see the video of what the Nassau nazis did to him and the lack of any assault against the police.
 
186biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 17:41
If teabaggers championed the worst public-employee unions - police unions, then they might get my vote.

The silence and hypocrisy surrounding police unions is deafening.

Teachers are weak, red meat.
 
187biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 17:42
Championed regulating or eliminating them, I mean.
 
188Boldwin
      ID: 49250121
      Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 22:46
I'm not in favor of any 'public sector' unions. They should be illegal.

I understand the political calculus that keeps anyone from attacking that particular union. The art of the possible.
 
194Khahan
      ID: 54152322
      Thu, Mar 26, 2015, 21:38
Officer Trevor Casper just 21 years old and 2 months out of the academy murdered by armed violent felon during robbery call.

San Jose, Ca officer Michael Johnson shot dead on the scene by man he went to help.
 
195Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 20:25
Those are tragedies, not cases of authority gone awry.
 
196Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 20:26
Unless you are saying misconduct led to their deaths. But that doesn't seem likely.
 
216sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 22:13
dont flag down a passing patrol car in LA. You get to be dead.
 
217Boldwin
      ID: 49572022
      Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 16:32
DOJ prosecuted Eugene Oregon for not hiring illegals as police officers". Fined $3000 & now must be "monitored".
 
218biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Fri, Aug 14, 2015, 08:29
Can you stop spewing horseshit? Nevermind. I know the answer.

"The behavior violated the U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, which bars employers from limiting work to U.S. citizens except where the employer is required to do so by law, regulation, executive order or government contract."

It doesn't say they can hire undocumented workers. I swear, you fall for this shit hook line and sinker.
 
219Boldwin
      ID: 49572022
      Fri, Aug 14, 2015, 21:34
An investigation found that from July 2013 through February 2015 Eugene asked police officer job applicants about their citizenship status, intending to exclude non-U.S. citizens at the time of hire, the Justice Department said.
You are OK with this.

Naturally.

But you never believe me when I tell you Illegals will get every benefit they are legally disallowed from because we are legally barred from asking if they are illegals.

Forked tongue because you know it's true. And OK with it.
 
220Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Aug 15, 2015, 11:10
If, in fact, there is a law that prohibits the asking for ID of ANY prospective employee, then there is something terribly wrong with the law.

If a green card holder is not required to register for the draft, but receives all benefits that a citizen gets....you're OK with that?

Sorry, I cannot get my head around that in any fashion. Perhaps we need to revisit the basic concepts of a nation, citizenship and inherent rights/responsibilities before we continue to try to treat all humans equally. What is a pledge of allegiance anyway?
 
221biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Sun, Aug 16, 2015, 04:33
Lessee.

50 year old law.

No evidence that any undocumented immigrant has ever been hired as a police officer (or the frothing racists would have found it by now).

Sounds like something is "terribly wrong". An epidemic.

Sounds like you should get in line to give Trump a hand job. He's your man.
 
222Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Sun, Aug 16, 2015, 05:15

Until an anti-American president instructed his anti-American head of the DOJ to enforce that stupid interpretation, no one ever thot to FORCE them to do so.
 
223Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Sun, Aug 16, 2015, 05:26
And no, I am thinking a Cruz/Fiorina ticket is the winning ticket and the rest aren't even close.

Does Trump tempt?

As a matter of fact it's tempting to think he at least means it when he says he'll give us a border. It's tempting to think that just maybe no one else can breach the impenetrable wall built of Dems importing votes and Chamber of Commerce exporting our future.

Everyone else is angling for CoC campaign donations if they can just finesse a position between them and the base. While Trump doesn't need their money.

Trump can make an empty promise too tho.

Trump can run into the impenetrable wall in congress, shrug and give up.

Meanwhile we don't get conservative SCOTUS judges, we get a Planned Parenthood friendly president. We get someone who actually enjoys Hillary's social company. We get a president who believes in single payer socialized medicine...

That's too much baggage for me...just to buy a convincing promise of a border.

But the border is issue #1, so it is tempting. If the majority voters eventually vote Somali and 'People's Republic of Mexico' it's over.
 
224Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 00:44
bili,

Unlike Trump, I have no animosity toward any Mexicans, most I have met are great people. For me its simply an issue of when push comes to shove, whose side of the Trump fence are they going to line up on?

When the US plays Mexico in a soccer match, who are they rooting for?

Do they celebrate 4th of July or Cinco de Maio?

Seems pretty basic my friend. Perhaps you should become an American citizen too.
 
225biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 06:40
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore."

I guess it depends on what America you prefer to live in. A jingoistic, hateful place, with pledges, hate and 20 foot razor wire, with drones and high-caliber weaponry. Cowering and fearful of the different. Growing old, frail, fragile, pathetic, behind high walls.

Or the welcoming place that opened it's arms to my ancestors, and brought in the people to make it great.
 
226Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 10:13
Just as a history refresher, the statue of liberty and any associated quotations are not of American origin. It was a gift from France, some call it a Trojan Horse.

Most people whose families have been here for more than a couple generations appreciate that a controlled immigration strategy is essential to maintain our sovereignty. If that concept is foreign to you, perhaps its because you are from another land.

The last of my ancestors to come to this country came in the 18th century, and although we appreciate the help of immigrants in settling the land, we also do not need too many people here to share it with. That my friend is Americanism, you would do well to embrace it.

As to which America I prefer, the one my family and I have defended for countless generations is fine by me.

The only reason we are having this discussion is because we are a nation in crisis due to uncontrolled illegal immigration. The Mexican and Central American people have long ignored the dangers of a lack of a population control policy. As a result their populations are bursting at the seams and they seek to remedy it through immigration to our country. They used to control their population by use of human sacrifice back in the Mayan days. Glad they abandoned that after the Spanish Invasion.
 
227weykool
      ID: 472331022
      Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 10:17
The only hate is being spewed from the left. Falsely accusing people of racism just to foment hatred and distrust. To me that is the very essence of bigotry.

Did your ancestors come here legally or illegally?
If your ancestor were applying for citizenship today it is likely they would be turned away due to number of the illegals cutting in line before them.
 
228Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 12:19
When you have to import a new set of voters because you hate the way the original citizens used to vote you've just identified who hates America and Americans.
 
229biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 15:37
One of my Great-grandmother's on my father's side was a child-bride sold into marriage to one of your "true Americans" from Syria. If she hadn't been kidnapped, you wouldn't nearly as good lasers to shoot down incoming missiles.

My Great-grandmother on my mother's side, a true American (Comanche), was kidnapped and married-off to one of our faux-American Texans in the mid-1800s.

Her brother in law shot probably 20 black men in the back.

I know all about what your "True Americans" do. My family history is all I have to look back to to figure that out.
 
230Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 17:31
Funny how our backstories define us.

I got backtaxed and penalized into oblivion after one unexpectedly bad year in business.
 
231Tree
      ID: 161036918
      Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 22:04
funny how quick you are to blame others for your own failures, yet you implore people to be responsible for their own actions.
 
232Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Tue, Aug 18, 2015, 10:17
229

bili,

You needn't turn your self loathing into a welcome mat. The guilt associated with past sins you didn't commit is no reason to give everyone's inheritance away. If it was just yours, nobody would care. But its our shared inheritance. Respect the borders.
 
233Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Tue, Aug 18, 2015, 11:32
Tree

The whole point of socialism is to make it impossible to be an independent individual and reduce them to serfs dependent on the collective.

Thus every impediment to prosperity is put forward by those who would be our masters.

They've already got half the populace reduced to clinging to and voting for socialist lifelines...

...provisions they wouldn't need had they not been impoverished by paying for the ball and chain of big failed centralized government.
 
234biliruben
      ID: 137281811
      Tue, Aug 18, 2015, 13:49
I have zero self-loathing. I'm simply clear-eyed about the dubiousness idea of American exceptionalism. My stories and family history contain numerous examples of those already living here being morally, intellectually and looking economic productivity-measures, inferior to those who came from outside the United States.

I also have numerous examples where that isn't true: My father, the pilot in the Air Force who went on to make vast contributions to our military capabilities, my namesake grandfather, a Colonel, who served in WWII and made was career Army. My cousin, also career military, who proudly walked his daughter down the aisle to be married at West Point cadet's chapel this Sunday. Our family is a vast network of high-achieving entrepreneurs, very successful businessmen and academics that I'm very proud of. There are also deadbeats, but that's the nature of family.

I was simply responding to your "history lesson", and saying that your definition of "American" is complete and utter bullshit. True Americans can come from any walk of life and also any part of the globe. Just because your great, great, great grand nana came over on the Mayflower doesn't give you a right to suggest you know more about what a true American is, or how to defend it, or most importantly how to make sure our country continues to be great.
 
235Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Tue, Aug 18, 2015, 18:17
One man ..... one vote
 
236Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Tue, Aug 18, 2015, 18:29
If you still vote Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional, PRI) when you come here, so that you can turn America into the hellhole you escaped from you may be from North America but you are not American.
 
237biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Wed, Aug 19, 2015, 13:33
Uh, yeah. One man one vote.
 
238Khahan
      ID: 177581914
      Wed, Aug 19, 2015, 15:58
True Americans can come from any walk of life and also any part of the globe

I agree with this 100%. But I also believe there is another part - legal American citizenship is a thing. It is important and should be respected. I have absolutely zero beef with anybody who wants to come to America from any land and become a legal citizen, apply for a green card, get a visa etc.

My beef is with people sneaking across the boarder taking jobs in America from Americans, taking that paycheck and money and sending it to their family in another country, using our medical/healthcare systems, benefiting from the taxes of legal citizens and now pushing for other rights without taking the steps to do things properly.

Work with the system, don't circumvent it. And if the system makes it difficult - well maybe there is a reason there are a few hoops to jump thru.