Forum: pol
Page 3795
Subject: Religious Freedom Laws


  Posted by: Frick - [17640169] Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 09:23

I'm an Indiana resident, so the outcry nationally and in Indiana is embarrassing. I just heard that Arkansas passed a similar law, considering the outcry that has resulted, I thought I would start a thread.

Due to all of the backlash Indiana's Governor is saying he will fix the bill. While I would rather see it repealed, I read a very compelling argument of why the bill is needed, provided it is amended appropriately. Namely, making LBGT a protected class. Thankfully, there are some cities in Indiana which already have that protection locally, but sadly, those cities are in the minority.

What saddens me more is knowing that the majority of people who voted for this law will be likely be easily re-elected.
 
1Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:03
What saddens me is that you are ok with ruining my life if I refuse to participate in your gay ceremony.
 
2Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:06
What ever happened to tolerance? Live and let live?
 
3biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:17
Yeah. If I don't wanna serve that lesbian sitting at my lunch counter, what's the problem with that?

Codifying bigotry is hip.
 
4Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:27
And the truth is you don't really want us at your gay wedding.

You just want to destroy the lives of people who disagree with you.
 
5Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:32
No one is denying anyone basic services.

Until you start defining basic services as forcing us to abort your baby.

We are just asking to be left out of your objectionable immoral activities.

And that's the real fascist impulse at the root of this. You want to destroy enuff lives until moral people are intimidated into declaring your immorality as morally approved.
 
6biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:35
You are confused. It was the trendy bigots who wrote the law.
 
7Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:43
Nah, you can tell the trendy bigots. They're the ones in the cultural power position trying to push other people around.
 
8Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:44
By definition the people losing the culture war and on the defensive are not 'trendy'.
 
9biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:50
I Think you need to look up the definition of trendy.

Then look at the Arkansas state house.
 
10biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:53
What is this ephemeral, impossible to measure cultural power you are talking about?

Codifying discrimination into the laws of a state. That's measurable power.
 
11biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:55
Can I sit please sit in the back of your cab, massah? No ride to the airport for me, 'cuz you think I think your cute?
 
12Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:55
That's a last stand of the moral.

We defeated you at the ballot but the gay judges beat us down.

Now we are just refusing to wear a skirt and pom poms and dance in your gay parade.
 
13biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 12:58
Keep digging.

 
14Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 13:01
Though there is a historic reference to civil rights protests, lunch counters are a bad example.

Personally, I'd like to know whether or not I am looked upon as a friend or enemy before I order food. Those cooks and wait staff like to spit in the food of people they dont care for. So, be careful what you ask for....hehe

I stopped in a fast food restaurant in Indianapolis a week ago on my way to Cleveland. All of the employees were black and apparently not happy to be working there, I cant blame them. Not my life's ambition, cant imagine it was theirs either.

I was happy I could watch them prepare my food, before all their life's worries were heaped on me in one spoot of defiance toward someone who looked to them to be their persecutor. I cant fix it, can you? I tried to say something funny, just to lift their spirits, but until the government gives some hope in the way of jobs, this cycle of resentment will continue.

Religion seeks to organize us around a behavioral law, its well meaning but flawed, its inherently an authoritarian way of life. Our "rule of law" government seeks to democratize social behavior, minorities will inevitably suffer as a result. It's only the empathy of the majority that slows the inevitable bigotry.

We keep taking on new minorities to assimilate in this country, when we haven't even brought the black community into mainstream, and they have been standing in line for quite some time now, in case you have forgotten. Most of us only have so much love to spread around, dont expect too much of your fellow man, he likes a homogenous society.

Good luck changing minds. This is why States are allowed self rule. If you dont like the laws, you do have the option of leaving. You also have the option of protesting and being branded a rebel, isn't self determination a wonderful thing?
 
15Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 13:05
It's bad enuff you can actually force yourself into my rental apartment inside my own four walls and bugger away inside my own home. That's not even covered in this law.

But no one is saying you can't eat at my restaurant, ride in my cab. Those aren't religiously objectionable.
 
16Khahan
      ID: 34255168
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 13:08
I look at this from 2 perspectives. The first a lesbian couple walks into a bakery and orders some bread for dinner. Maybe a cake for a birthday party. Denying them service because they are gay is flat out wrong. It's the kind of bigotry that has no place.

Next a lesbian couple walks into a bakery and orders their wedding cake for their wedding. Forcing that baker to make the cake is forcing that baker to participate or support something they have a religious disagreement with. That is wrong. You should not be able to force somebody to support and participate in something they fundamentally disagree with.

The problem is - how do you protect one without inadvertently allowing the other?

Peolple have the right to their beliefs. People have the right to believe homosexuality is sinful. And they should not be made to feel ashamed to believe that. But a right to a Belief and a right to action are 2 different things. It's where to draw the line that is in question.

The activists on the lgbt community seem to want the line in a spot that criminalizes disagreeing with them. I can support their right to equality but I don't support their seeming desire to strip away basic rights of individuality. The religious activists seem to want to demomize being gay and criminalize it. I can support their right to 'believe' it's wrong to be gay but I cannot support their attempt to suppress basic human rights.

Find a way to word the law so that a restaurant can't Deny service on the basis of "you're gay - get out" but still allow a caterer for example to not have to cater a same sex wedding. But that caterer cannot deny a gay person food at another function simply because that person is gay.

Until they can make a law that can accomplish protecting both they need to not make a law and handle situations that arise on a case by case basis.
 
17Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 13:13
I believe Pense is asking for that exact balanced wording right now.

I'm fine with that.

Not real fine with him giving the appearance of caving tho. He needs to make that clear. There is nothing shameful about protecting religious consciences from being forced to break their religious rules.
 
18Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 13:43
There is nothing shameful about protecting religious consciences from being forced to break their religious rules.

Then there is drinking the kool aid, beheading the infidels, harboring known pedophiles, polygamy, responsibility for children and women etc.

Problem is defining limits of authority of churches, constraining what tenets are or are not acceptable, defining cult vs religion etc. Rule of law sounds great, but in reality it gets unwieldy with an educated people. We all are so smart, we actually believe we have a voice in our own rule, and there is somehow a constraint on the tyrrany of the majority or its elected leaders, be they religious or political. Whether its santa clause, your permanent record, an omnipresent god, or the shaming of society, we all are forced to behave in a way that restricts us, to the benefit of others who have to put up with our beliefs and actions. This apparent peace between us only exists in your minds my friends. Anyone can at any time explode into a fire of rage like a supernova and take all the rest of us down with them.....damn the laws.

Hehe, dont be too scared.....Daddy will protect you.
 
19Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 18:14
It's amazing how strongly they backed the separation of church and state ... right up until...

...their church took over.

Now it's burn the heretics. The libertines, the secular humanists wheeling the religious to the stake to be burned. With the power of the state behind them.
 
20biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 18:34
Most of my gay friends are either Catholics or Buddhists.
 
21Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 18:40
Perhaps this will correct itself.

Maybe they'll insist muslims add their own special flavor to the ceremony.
 
22Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 22:20
I do believe that there is a difference between making something to-order, and selling something off the shelf. But this Indiana law is a license to discriminate. No more and no less, and it has no place in a pluralistic society.
 
23Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 22:30
Funny, we used to be able to tolerate diversity and different strokes for different folks. But now it's gotta be your way or get crushed. How is that pluralist?
 
24Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 22:35
So according to you guys, I should be able to take my pork carcass to a muslim or Jewish butcher and they shouldn't have the option to decline to process that?

Why should we have to stretch ourselves beyond the breaking point just because you won't be denied? Why are you gods and we are your slaves?
 
25Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 22:39
You are intentionally missing the point. You do that with your religion, too.
 
26Tree
      ID: 582211613
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 00:22
The pork analogy and good for a laugh Baldwin...honestly laughed hard at that one.

You can't be that foolhardy, can you? Hatred of gays = pork chops and bacon.

(not to mention the false implication that all jewish butchers are kosher butchers.)
 
27Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 07:35
I would never be so foolhardy as to assume every jew observed the commandments.

Why should a person who was horrified to be covered in pig guts be forced by the anti-religious to take a pork gut shower?

Just get away from us. Take your immoral besotted lives and bugger off somewhere else. Keep your dirty hands off of us.
 
28Frick
      ID: 17640169
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 15:52
While I don't think that a personal service company should be forced (or sued for refusing) to participate in something against their religion, there should be consequences if you want to be a bigot.

Seriously, the pizza shop outside of South Bend is indefinitely closed after saying they wouldn't cater a gay wedding. Granted, they have received 170k in funding from other bigots, so I'm guessing this will be one of their better years.

But, how many businesses ask detailed questions about the reception, like is for a guy and girl, or 2 guys when they are taking the order?

 
29Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 16:42
BTW, are you all OK with the violence your side has unleashed on Memories Pizza?

Words have consequences...remember?
 
30Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 17:06
I notice no one can manage the honesty to recognize that the analogy with blacks at the lunch counter does not hold up and never did.

These people never did have the impulse to withhold pizzas from gay customers. It was only the [impossibly unlikely] request to cater and participate in a gay wedding that they refused in theory.

And notice that the reporterette who went hunting for a case to blow up into a scandal, ended up having to go far outside of town to a small small town where libs haven't managed to crush traditional morality yet.
 
31biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 18:06
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

Bigotry is morality.
 
32Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 18:11
Remembering that liberals recognize hypocrisy as the only sin, you would expect they'd be outraged that Apple refused do business with these app makers because they rejected their religious views.

And they are perfectly ok with running Apple stores in countries that execute gay people...

...but not in Indiana.

Of course you'd be wrong. Libs don't have consistant principles...only the ever changing party line of the moment.
 
33Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 18:18
#31

Sums up bili's position. Discrimination against the religious is fine with him and there is no reasonable limit on the damage the state can visit upon the religious. Very bigoted of you, bili. Hateful of you, even.

And very specific discrimination. Muslims escape your torch for now.

Libs loved freedom of speech when it was their freedom at stake. No freedom allowed for anyone else tho.

Now in his view the state can compel my speech in support of that which I do not support. His idea of freedom.
 
34biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 18:27
Speak all you want. Nobody is hindering your speech.

 
35Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 18:28
Once upon a time it was morally correct to require your neighbor to take care of and teach his children the proper way to behave. Once upon a time it was morally correct to require your neighbor to follow societal laws of sexual behavior. Therefore at some time gay behavior was actually illegal. So, what changed? Social attitudes changed, and interpretation and hierarchy of law changed.

Will being un-date-able soon be illegal too? Will refusing to have sex with someone of the same sex become illegal?

Christians who truly believe, should not be too concerned about gays, they will inevitably become extinct. Of course you'd only believe that if you believe in evolution.
 
36Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 19:04
It's a Brave New World, Bean.

Monsanto babies...gay old times.
 
37Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 20:13
Nobody is hindering your speech - bili

If a gay activist can target me and force me to print up banners and invitations celebrating his gay 'marriage'...my free speech is being entirely hindered.

BTW, worst case scenario, can the Westburough Baptist cake maker write "G H F" on the cake he hands them back? Is his speech that free?

You hate him. You are free to. Do you feel entirely innocent when you sue him until he is homeless and on the street?

You have honored the principle of free speech in that case?
 
38Mith
      ID: 4939221
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 22:12
I'm so lost. What is religious about a wedding cake? I not aware of any biblical reference to wedding cake as any kind of sacred or necessary part of holy matrimony.

The baker can presumably rest assured that the couple is not to be joined in any church they would attend, so what exactly about the act of baking and selling a cake forces a baker to validate the ceremony as something any different from whatever other nonsensical social hijinks s/he thinks those crazy and wicked gays get themselves into?

Is a baker who makes a cake for a wedding party for a gay couple really sanctioning their wedding? Any moreso than the driver who might take them to the ceremony, for example?

Boldy seems just fine with exempting taxi drivers from this law. I'm quite certain that getting the betrothed to the altar is a much more crucial responsibility than providing dessert for the party after.
 
39Mith
      ID: 4939221
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 22:25
Written by a friend:
So say an engaged couple, a man and a woman, enter a cake shop and order up a wedding cake. When asked by the clerk where to send the bill, the woman says:

"We live at the following address," writing it down on the invoice.

"We?" the clerk says. "You both live there? Together?"

"The two of us, yes," the man says.

A hard look comes over the clerk's face.

"I'm very sorry," he says. "But due to my religious convictions, I can't in good conscience sell a wedding cake to a couple living in sin. I'm afraid you'll have to take your business elsewhere."

The couple are stunned, too stunned to really even get mad, and so they leave.

"That was weird," the man says.

"It was," the woman agrees, then says "Hey, look. There's another bakery."

It may seem as though this story is meant to convey a "meh" response to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, but I actually mean the very opposite. Because I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the story I just told has probably never happened in real life. At least not lately or often enough for anyone to notice. Which is my point.

The religious conviction that premarital sex is wrong is certainly real, but at this point in time it isn't a conviction that anyone can really carry with them into public life the way they seem to want to with scriptural homophobia. A business that only is willing to serve virgins and married people simply won't make it very far. For that matter, a consumer that refuses to frequent any business that is operated by or employs "fornicators" won't make it very far. And complaining that their children's public school teacher has a live-in girlfriend isn't likely to be taken seriously either. Basically, if the sanctity of marriage means chastity before the exchanging of rings, the world has very definitely decided to move past your hangup.

That said, I see how the story I just told could certainly be held up as part of a rhetorical argument in favor of these Religious Freedom Restoration Acts.

"See, it's not just about gay people," a proponent might say. "We reserve the right to refuse service to sinful straight people too! It's about religious conviction, after all."

And they'd be right, except for the part where the story doesn't -and basically cannot- actually happen in reality. Merchants of religious conviction are finished messing with the rights of straight couples (unless those couples happen to be interracial, in which case, not quite) and have moved on to same-sex couples.

Which is precisely why the law shouldn't be on their side here. The point of anti-discrimination law is not to explicate the terms of every interaction a merchant has with every potential customer. That would be micromanagement. No, in this context, the point is to make sure that same-sex couples are protected against the same discrimination that straight couples *need no protection against*.
 
40Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 22:35
I'm old enough to remember when Starbucks lecturing customers on their sin was considered "corporate responsibility." - IowaHawkblog twitter

George Orwell — 'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'
 
41Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 22:41
MITH

The world is in no danger of developing a shortage of veeeery friendly wedding planners and florists.

The gays will get over their problem with tooo much diversity in the marketplace just fine.
 
42Khahan
      ID: 54152322
      Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 22:59
Thats the good thing about freedom MITH. People can choose what they want to believe in. If they want to be hypocrites then they can be hypocrites and pick and choose what they feel is important within their religion.

We can't and we shouldn't deny service on the basis of being gay but if a person honestly feels that same sex marriage is wrong and violation of a religious or even personal moral code then why should that person be forced to perform an act that supports the thing s/he is against?
That is the one question that is often dodged and not answered.

Here's another example that has very real possibilities for me.
I'm an insurance agent. Not far from the area I live in there is a KKK presence. If a member of this group comes into my office for home/auto/life insurance they will get treated like any other customer. That has nothing to do with their beliefs. However if they come in because they want event insurance for an upcoming rally...do I by law HAVE to provide that outlet for them? If so that's total BS.

The problem with the broad language goes 2 ways. I understand that the Indiana law's language is too broad and too far reaching. Going back to my post 16 its way over the line allowing true denial of service when there is no real participation in the unwanted act. This differs from the federal law and the laws in 35 or 36 other states with similar laws.
But having the language too restrictive and binding sets people up to be forced to take care of stuff they have real fundamental and philosophical differences with. I used the KKK because it alive and a true issue in my area. I've had a run in with them (funny story about that. It involves a gathering of martial artists from around the world. Some 200 instructors and students at a hotel for a conference/seminar at the same time a KKK rally is being held at the same hotel. Guess which side started a fight and guess which side ended the fight. The guy they started the fight with was a jujitsu instructor in NYC. He was also a bounty hunter who went to the worst hell holes in Mexico to bring back violent criminals. Not somebody to screw with, but I digress).

I get what you are saying about the likelihood of mix sex couples 'needing' the protection vs the reality that same sex couples would encounter it on a regular basis. However my point is that people are so focused on 'the gay issue' that they are losing sight of how these laws could affect other aspects of life. There is more at stake than just a debate about same sex marriage.

I dont agree with Boldwin in his belief that same sex marriage should not be allowed. But I 100% support his right to his belief and am 100% opposed to codifying behavior that infringes on his beliefs. At the same time I 100% support the right for same sex couples to get married and 100% opposed legislation that would stop that from happening. A properly written freedom of religion law would allow both. Indiana's is not properly written. I'm glad to hear they are tweaking it to bring it in line with other similar laws. I just hope people stop focusing on one sub-issue though and realize the broader implications of making these laws to begin with.
 
43Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Fri, Apr 03, 2015, 01:24
<41> Hell, and all this time I thought all wedding planners, florists and cake makers were either women or gay men. What the hell do I know. Clearly I am not equipped to comment on this subject.

You pussies figure this shit out and let me know how its supposed to go down. I promise not to kick some gay dude's ass just for being gay, if you promise not to tell me about your menstrual cramps.
 
44sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Fri, Apr 03, 2015, 02:37
Why is it that everytime a "religious freedom" law gets enacted, someone loses rights?
 
45Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Fri, Apr 03, 2015, 12:59
I have no idea what you are talking about, Sarge. No one has the 'right' to force me to cheerlead in their gay pride parade or to abort their baby.

Go bugger off, and you can keep all your rights.
 
46Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Fri, Apr 03, 2015, 18:18
Which statement most infuriates liberals? 1. Death to America! 2. Death to Israel! 3. I wouldn't cater a gay wedding.

- Friend and one of my favorite twitter sources, Dr Hugo Hackenbush @MangyLover, hilarious and brilliant homocon
 
47sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Fri, Apr 03, 2015, 22:41
I'm not surprised B, that you say you have no idea...You should have just stopped typing, after that 4th word.

If you aren't reading STONEKETTLE, you should be
 
48Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 08:12
That piece does not in any way explain why your not being able to restrict my actions to doing exactly what you want, and not what I want, is your right. Or why your not being able to force me to violate my religion takes anything away from you except my approval. Which is something you never had and never will have.
 
49sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 09:56
YOU, are the one restricting actions boldwin. YOU, are the one claiming falsely, that YOU are being persecuted. YOU, are the one DOING, the persecuting. YOU, are the guilty party trying to legislate YOUR narrow view of life, down everyone elses throat. YOU, are the false purveyor, bearing false witness, and making false allegations.

There, is THAT clear enough for you?
 
50Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 10:15
<36> It will be an interesting nature vs nurture study when someone assesses the sexual preference of children adopted by gay couples. It could be alarming for both sides of this discussion. Is gayness nature or nurture, and to what degree of each?

All I know is that my un-scientifc assessment is that I see more gay men come from single mothers than from normal heterosexual families. There is also a higher number of gay men who were molested by pedophile fathers. Is that nature or nurture? Again, its just my anecdotal observation, I have no stats to back it up.

I refute the notion that most people who are gay are that way at birth. In my view, the proliferation of this myth is just a way for people to explain why their loved ones are acting "strangely" and make them feel better about how they raised their children to be misfits.

Of course if we continue down this path, it will be the heterosexual children that may be viewed as misfits. The union of marriage will no longer be about assigning responsibility for caring for children, but simply a contract for sharing of resources between two people of any sex. Keep it up America, and soon there will be no children, except those of immigrants, test tubes and promiscuous teens on ADC. Good Luck.
 
51Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 10:19
How is my not allowing myself to be hired out to further the gay agenda, restricting anyone's actions?

I'm not forcing myself down their throat, the other way around. They are forcing themselves on people of conscience.
 
52sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 10:20
Marriage, was never about anything BUT sharing resources. What do you think a dowry was for?
 
53Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 10:26
Why does a dog hump on human legs? How do you teach him not to?
 
54Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 10:33
<52> Marriage of one man to one woman is about soooo much more than just sharing resources between two people. Its about social order, its why polygamy is illegal in Christian society. If one man is allowed to do all the procreation in the tribe, the other men will not help defend the tribe and will no doubt revolt.

Adultery is a big deal in primitive cultures and is underplayed in ours. Its this marriage of one man to one woman concept that has kept Christian society rolling along for so long. Our laws around marriage are so much more primal than you realize.
 
55Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 10:35
Homosexuality comes about when the normal socialization of children with people of the same sex is delayed, 'arrested' past the normal time, and on past puberty where normal healthy affinity then gets mixed up with sexuality.

Homosexuality comes about when people cannot come to acceptable terms with their upbringing and their fathers in particular, and thus cannot form healthy normal relationships with men.

Homosexuality is blooming because healthy families have been under relentless attack by cultural leaders for an entire lifetime. Healthy families have become the exception.

Homsexuality has bloomed because men have withdrawn from their proper role in the family. And are no longer role models. Feminists have derided and pushed them out. The culture has painted them as the villain. The courts have treated them as the enemy. Men are withdrawing from the culture and retreating into selfish loner lives.

Men who were taught 'anything goes' in their developing years, sometimes act accordingly. The family devastation that follows screws up child's lives including their sexual development.
 
56Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 10:46
And the irresponsible libertine male gets so much out of the zeitgeist. It's not women who benefit.

Women agree to meaningless frequent sex. Agree to be treated like disposable tissue paper. Agree to murder their inconvenient babies.

It started at @1% but who knows? Maybe someday 10% of the male competition will opt out of the competition for nubile females. Women can't find a decent man anywhere, so they give up trying and waiting for Mr Right and screw Mr Today instead and just raise their kids alone.

What's not to love from the viewpoint of the male slut?

There is the real war on women.
 
57Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 16:40
Adlai Stevenson famously offered this definition: “A free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular.” We do not live in that society.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/416307/war-private-mind-kevin-d-williamson
 
58biliruben
      ID: 39256112
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 17:14
Safe? Safe!?

Dude, we live in a society where people feel it's okay to beat the crap out of and kill people who look gay. Even here in Seattle.

I don't recall a lot of Christian's being targeted for beat-downs by gangs of roving thugs in this country.

Your a bigoted prick, and there may be consequences to your business or corporation if you demonstrate you a bigoted prick.

Free market at work. No special rights for bigoted pricks.
 
59Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 17:57

I don't recall a lot of Christian's being targeted for beat-downs by gangs of roving thugs in this country.


He says after having mau-mau'd every other regular posting conservative out of this forum with uncivil treatment.
 
60Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 18:03
If you have to equate getting mau-mau'd (?) at the Rotoguru Politics Forum with beatings from gangs of thugs out looking for queers to stomp, you have surrendered the point.
 
61Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 18:15
Has it ever occurred to you guys that you are less the noble human rights advocates than you are just people who like to gang up on the outnumbered and unpopular?
 
62Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 18:19
Is that what you think post 60 is?

I'm not allowed to challenge you because your bigoted opinions are unpopular?
 
63Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 18:21
This is the way these fascists act when they still can't win in the ballot box and have to get their way thru activist judges. Imagine their fascist excesses when they ever get in the majority.

I can't stand bullies.
 
65Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 18:27
I'll bow out of this discussion then. I don't want to be responsible for any fragile little snowflakes feeling bullied.

And I don't think the anti-bigotry set here at RG needs any help from me knocking your homophobic softball arguments over the wall.

Go easy on him guys. There's a sensitive little flower behind all that vapid hate that he calls God's word.
 
66Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 18:31
Evil peddles tolerance until it is dominant, then seeks to silence good.
 
67Mith
      ID: 231150292
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 18:33
Well consider me silenced on this topic.
 
68Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 19:37
The real difficulty is with dealing with this "pluralistic" issue is that both sides feel like they are the victims. Intelligent uninvested people will see both sides of the argument as valid. However, I think finding someone who isnt invested in some way on this issue will be difficult. Legal momentum seems to be swinging toward favoring gay partnerships over "family values".

Some things simply can not be legislated to a "fair" conclusion for all with a simply formula for right and wrong. If they could, there would be no need for judges, juries, or voting on issues. There is simply opinion, and in our society, majority rule is a key guiding principle.

The liberal acceptance of divorce and extramarital affairs in our culture began the slow demise of the very building blocks of our society that we all took for granted. Though we may have benefited in some way from sexual freedom, the price has been paid by the children of broken homes and young women with children.

Look, I am far from being a prude, I was a merchant seaman after all. However, the effects of sexual freedom on our society are undeniable. What's next? The sexual encounters with werewolves and zombies that are being proliferated in cinema and television...leads to necrophilia and beastiality? Hell, we are already a society that appears to cherish animal rights over human rights. So, dont laugh.

Anyway kids, its your world to screw up. Just dont whine that you were too naive to understand what you were doing. You've been told.
 
69biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 20:37
Divorce rates have been falling for decades. I was a the toddler during the free love era. Not that I didn't get some action.

I don't know what you freaky fogies are talking about.
 
70Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Sat, Apr 04, 2015, 21:11
Pure divorce rate numbers fail to tell the story bili.

Here's one take on it
 
71Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sun, Apr 05, 2015, 05:56
I told you so.

Logic told you it was just about equality and just being good-natured towards all.

Knowledge told you differently. Not when you are dealing with totalitarians.

 
72Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sun, Apr 05, 2015, 06:00
When you give people the benefit of the doubt, the likelihood that you'll be hurt or taken advantage of greatly increases. Still, it's what I try to do because it's how I'd like to be treated.

For years, I have argued that the state should remove itself from the business of sanctifying marriages. Contract law would cover the legalities of a relationship, and benefits would not accrue to citizens based upon whom they choose to offer monogamy.

And for years, I have argued with conservatives on air - trying to convince them that the limited government philosophy can support this position.

As you might imagine, my position has led to some pretty heated debates over the years, and I was quick to smack down fears that churches would be forced to perform same sex marriages, or that people would be punished for not being made to agree. I deemed these wildly hypothetical fantasies.

But I was wrong...

~~~

I find myself at odds now with a lot of proponents of same sex marriage who appear to be walking the charred battlefield of the cultural war and shooting the wounded.

I apologize for thinking this was about only equal treatment under the law. I apologize for dismissing conservatives' fears that this slippery slope would lead to de facto banishment from various sectors of the public square.

I thought people just wanted to be left alone. I was wrong.

For many, they wanted forced conversions.

As such, it's only fair we ask where it ends.




 
73Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sun, Apr 05, 2015, 08:31
HANS FIENE: Gay Marriage Isn’t About Justice, It’s About Selma Envy: My generation willfully ignores the real debate about gay rights and religious freedom because we want halos without sacrifice.

Comparisons of RFRA to Jim Crow — are not only ahistorical, but also racist, as they deliberately underplay the real sufferings of black people under Jim Crow by comparing them to, say, someone who has to shop elsewhere for a wedding pizza.
 
74sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sun, Apr 05, 2015, 21:53
I still have a $500 donation to RG ready, soon as we get an iggy button.
 
75sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sun, Apr 05, 2015, 21:55
and FTR, yes, I am sure there are those who would iggy me. lol Thats fine.
 
76Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 06:44
 
77Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 13:45
My brother has long been a fan of Jerry Springer, and while at the NCAA games with him, I found out that he regularly views Maury Povich. For the uninitiated, it seems that Maury has made a show out of DNA testing for paternity. Naturally while watching the show, we got into a discussion about the law and the implications of DNA testing on child support liability.

My old buddy and my brother told me that the state of law enforcement active in Ohio and Nevada today is that social services asks ADC recipients to name the father and the naming alone allows them to begin child support garnishment. It is up to the accused father to prove he is not if he wants to avoid liability. I have no idea how other states including my own (CO) deal with this.

Paternity and cuckoldom was always a lively subject during my college days, as we all watched our buddies' lives unfold like a good Maury Povich show. I remember back in the day, before DNA testing, there used to be a rule whereby you could get five of your buddies to say they had sex with the girl in front of a judge to avoid the liability. However, I dont recall anyone trying to test that urban legend.

Thoughts?
 
78Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 14:34
Wow, those are 5 standup buds!
 
79Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 15:09
Miss the good ol days with shot gun weddings?
 
80Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 15:45
Just aint like it used to be. Sex in the 21st Century. This excerpt from a recent article:

It all started on the evening of Wednesday, April 8th, when a 24-year-old man went to an address on Tarson Terrace to meet a woman he had “met” on Facebook. When he arrived at the address, though, the woman he was meeting wasn’t alone. Two men confronted him when he entered her apartment, stealing his wallet, money and cell phone. All three suspects fled the scene.

Can't a brother just get a plain old booty call any more? All I can say is "pimpin' aint easy".
 
81Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Tue, Apr 14, 2015, 12:11
Used to be Craigslist was the place to go to if you wanted to get rolled. Now, everywhere.
 
82Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Tue, Apr 14, 2015, 14:49
Let's hear a rotoguru stat guru explain the effect it's had on prostitution pricing.
 
83Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 20:09
DOJ 'Monitoring' Woman Who Banned Muslims From Her Shooting Range

The Koran (which I have read and studied thoroughly) and (which all muslims align themselves with), contains 109 verses commanding hate, murder and terror against all human beings who refuse to submit or convert to Islam.

My life has been threatened repeatedly by muslims in response to my publication of those verses from their Koran. Why would I want to rent or sell a gun and hand ammunition to someone who aligns himself with a religion that commands him to kill me?
Two pressure cookers, Mrs Tsarnaeva?

 
84Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 20:10
The Constitution is not a suicide pact.
 
85sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 22:18
109 such verses in the Koran? And how many in the Bible Boldwin?
 
86Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 22:57
Put down your swords, he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

You'd know that if you spent less time pretending to be a christian and any time reading the Bible.
 
87Khahan
      ID: 54152322
      Sat, Jun 06, 2015, 23:49
Leave it Jean-Luc Picard to say it best.
 
88Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Fri, Jun 19, 2015, 12:52
I agree with him. The line that was crossed was requiring the bakery to participate in speech with which they disagreed.

He is not saying that the bakery shouldn't have to make a cake for a gay person. He's saying they shouldn't be forced to participate in a form of speech with which they disagree.
 
89biliruben
      ID: 137281811
      Mon, Sep 14, 2015, 15:02
And second, we have this category of “our Christian values” that appears to be, on closer inspection, devoid of content and substance. It’s an ornate treasure chest with nothing inside.
It’s a very busy sort of nothing — forms of prayer and worship and scripted piety and institutional inertia and lots and lots of worrying about what everyone’s genitals might be up to. But it’s all fruitless. It’s fruitless by design — prevented and restricted from bearing any meaningful fruit other than producing more of the same busy nothingness. It’s abstract — abstracted from “doing a lot to help” orphans and widows and refugees, and thus, itself, helpless.
Such “Christian values” cannot be protected. There’s nothing there to protect.


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2015/09/12/protecting-our-christian-values/
 
90Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Sat, Sep 26, 2015, 23:29
Leave it to liberals to rationalize letting the government make religious judgements and religious edicts.
 
91Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Sat, Sep 26, 2015, 23:35
PD

Making a celebration cake or a photo celebration IS the speech being coerced.

No business is telling gays they can't buy a generic cake or a generic empty photo album or a generic pizza.
 
92Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Sat, Sep 26, 2015, 23:37
There is no valid analogy with blacks at the lunch counter.

No mater how badly you want to wrap yourself in that flag.
 
93Tree
      ID: 161036918
      Wed, Sep 30, 2015, 13:21
No business is telling gays they can't buy a generic cake or a generic empty photo album or a generic pizza.


so, if they went to the same cake shop that refused to design a cake for them, and just ordered a plain cake, the cake shop would be ok with that?

you're really not paying attention.
 
94weykool
      ID: 472331022
      Sun, Oct 04, 2015, 11:55
so, if they went to the same cake shop that refused to design a cake for them, and just ordered a plain cake, the cake shop would be ok with that?
Absolutely.
 
95Tree
      ID: 161036918
      Sun, Oct 04, 2015, 18:59
you don't honestly believe that, do you?
 
96weykool
      ID: 472331022
      Sun, Oct 04, 2015, 21:48
That's what absolutely means.
 
97Tree
      ID: 161036918
      Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 08:26
so they'd bake a plain cake for a gay wedding, but not a decorated cake?
 
98weykool
      ID: 472331022
      Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 10:03
What is so hard to comprehend here?
Do you understand the difference between discriminating against an event and exercising your right to free speech and the freedom OF religion vs discriminating against people?

Imagine a skinhead walks into a Jewish bakery and orders a birthday cake and a couple of pastries.
Would you agree that to refuse them services is discrimination?

Now imagine that same skinhead walks in and orders a birthday cake that is to celebrate Hitler's birthday complete with swastikas. Would you really force them to make the cake in violation to their free speech and religious freedom rights?
 
99Tree
      ID: 161036918
      Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 10:14
Imagine a skinhead walks into a Jewish bakery and orders a birthday cake and a couple of pastries.

Would you agree that to refuse them services is discrimination?

Now imagine that same skinhead walks in and orders a birthday cake that is to celebrate Hitler's birthday complete with swastikas. Would you really force them to make the cake in violation to their free speech and religious freedom rights?


i'm jewish. i'm not a jewish baker. but if i were a jewish baker, and some jackwad skin head wanted to give me his hard-earned money, i'd consider that a big victory.

i suppose if i didn't want to bake you a cake with decorations because you were polka-dotted, i wouldn't want to bake you a cake without decorations either, for the same reason.

i see flawed logic in your presentation.
 
100weykool
      ID: 472331022
      Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:08
The only flaw in my logic is your failure to understand it.
Please read again...I never said anything about YOU being a baker.
Its not a matter of what YOU would do its a matter of if You agree or disagree with the rights of others.
 
101Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Wed, Oct 07, 2015, 03:43
so they'd bake a plain cake for a gay wedding, but not a decorated cake?

They would make and already do make regular cakes for all their customers.

Just don't come in and demand the owners celebrate a gay wedding.