Forum: pol
Page 617
Subject: More news from the War on Some Drugs


  Posted by: Seattle Zen - Donor [554192913] Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 16:15

I'm making this post for two reasons, but first my disclaimer. I've never tried methamphetamines and I never will. Meth is an EVIL substance, enough people have told me personal horror stories. However, this story, "Middle-class working moms turning to meth for energy" really poses two questions.

1. If Mike Tyson only served three years for raping a woman, how can a mother of three with no other record face 35 years for drugs?

2. Why hasn't the mega-billion pharmacutical industry come up with a safe, non-addictive, no bad side effect stimulant?

Issue 1: This woman made some stupid choices. But why such a long sentance? If she was able to cook, clean, work and care for her children while high on caffine, we'd all applaud. But she choose meth instead and now about 2 million dollars of tax money that could be used for little league baseball fields or loans for small Iowa businesses are going to the warehousing of this woman. Who thinks this is right?

Issue 2: About half the people I know (especially Nerve) would say that the people in power WANT meth to remain illegal because they profit from it so hansomely. I agree that the Prison-Industrial complex certainly profits from throwing people in the clink for 35 years. But much like marijuana, meth is "homegrown" and escapes the clutches of the larger drug lords. Meth is so cheap because it is easy to make and nothing needs to be imported. I would think that Big Pharm would make a killing if it could devise a safe, effective stimulant. Is it possible that our Puritan ethic is preventing a Fortune 500 company from exploring that avenue? Most people would laugh at much a naive question, but I wonder. Science hasn't created the stimulant of which I speak, is there any research happening in that area? Is it taboo to say, "we are looking for a safe replacement for caffine/meth that would have no negative health consequences"? Surely the military could use it.
 
1Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 16:34
1)I have no idea why the war on drugs continues in spite of all of the commons sense screaming at it to stop. While it's obviously fought from both political sides in this country, the right seems to have it imbedded in it's credo to continue this unwinnable, pointless war.

Also, don't be sure you've never tried meth if you've ever used e that you obtained from any source that you were not 100% certain about - especially if you were at all disappointed with the results.

2)I think that any stimulants, by nature, are harmful to some degree. The body gets tired when it needs sleep and depriving the body of sleep harmfully affects several of its systems. What's in over the counter No-Doze pills? Caffeine?
 
2Blueballs
      ID: 45614114
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 16:55
1. The woman is in jail for 35 years because she poses an immense danger to our society. I mean... Jesus! A single mother who successfully raises 3 kids, an clean house, etc, is a direct threat to those who run this country. Some may even say that mothers on meth are the Communists of today: Uncle Same beware!

On a slightly more serious note, I find America's War on Drugs ridiculous. This woman's crime in no way warrants 35 years in prison. We can start a whole new thread on a more sensible punishment (Is this woman recieving any treatment for her addiction?) for drug offenses.


2. Isn't caffeine accepted as a relatively safe (and widely popular) stimulant? Starbucks, Coke, Pepsi etc all fall into a mega-billion Fortune 500 industry that feeds our craving for a stimulant.
 
3Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 22347210
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 16:56
1. Crazy. New York State has some of the harshest drug sentences in the country (invariably referred to as "Rockefeller-era sentencing laws"). More time for possession of a vial of crack than for murder. I've heard that the Legislature is finally moving toward sanity on this issue (even Pataki is for some reform).
 
4Blueballs
      ID: 45614114
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 16:56
clean obviously starts with a vowel, for those who don't know ;)
 
5biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 16:58
"And now for the main event!

12 rounds of tag team action... Mothers on Meth vs. Daughters of the American Revolution!

Let's get ready to Ruuuuuummmmmmmmmmmbllllllle!"

;)
 
6Blueballs
      ID: 45614114
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 16:59
I recently saw a headline that read something along the lines of "Ashcroft for harsher drug laws," but I was on the run and didn't get to read that article. Has anybody read this article? (think it might have been the Wash Post or NY times) If so, can you point me to it? Thanks.
 
7Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 17:48
Isn't caffeine accepted as a relatively safe (and widely popular) stimulant?

Caffeine is addictive. I'm living proof. Also harmful in other ways, raises blood pressure, contributes to kidney stones, contributes to migraines. It also definately does some weird stuff to my nerves when I have too much, makes my hands shake, and actually messes with my head. I guess you could still say it's relatively harmless when compared to most or all narcotic stimulants, but I think when SZ said a safe, non-addictive, no bad side effect stimulant, he meant better than caffeine.
 
8Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 18:24
Also, don't be sure you've never tried meth if you've ever used e that you obtained from any source that you were not 100% certain about - especially if you were at all disappointed with the results.

Actually, most adulterated "e" is speed, not meth. There is a subtle difference.

Caffine is the closest we have to a safe, effective stimulant, but I agree with MITH that it is far from ideal. I'm thinking of something that masks sleep deprivation, gives a subtle stimulation, doesn't cause jumpiness, and the effect can be "turned off" if needed so one can sleep. Of course, all drugs effect people differently, so with the limited knowledge we presently have about brain chemstry and drug interactions, what I seek may not be possible today, but I think it is a worthy goal to strive for.
 
9Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 19:55
Again, the conservative nature of this forum becomes self-evident :)

PD What does New York state have to do with this? She's from Iowa in an Iowa prison.

To SZ's original questions:

1) 35 years versus 3 years for Tyson. Mixing apples and oranges. Tyson got off cheap -- his sentence was for 6 years, subsequent violations could have and should have netted him more than 20 years, etc. Celebrity justice, lack of evidence, who knows. Everyone knows Tyson should have served longer.

More importantly, here you have a convicted drug dealer. How much was she dealing? How much did she earn? How many people did she hook? Are there mitigating factors? Aggravating ones? You provide no evidence for any of these questions and expect us to conclude whether or not she should have received less than 35 years?

Regardless, I have little sympathy for drug pushers, and you have presented no evidence she was a particularly benign one.

2) Tell me how a safe and effective stimulant violates our "Puritan" ethos. We love drugs, just not those that screw with us. Drug companies would LOVE to produce a safe and effective stimulant stronger than what is already out there. The problem is biological, not profitability.

This is why I hate it when people simplistically talk about the "drug war", as if you can lump the difficulties and issues of fighting marijuana in there right with something like meth. Iowa has a terrible problem with meth right now. It is not a benign drug that simply makes you feel a bit better. It can screw with your life, kill you, kill others. You can't just say, "oh well, those kids are going to die, so what?" And, you can't just say "make it legal and regulate it". Too easy to make, regulating it is impossible. Some form of war against meth is necessary, even if we are "losing" it.
 
10Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 20:00
BTW, I don't know where you get the $2 million figure for her. Assuming she is not parole-eligible, and given the current $20,000 per year housing cost for Iowa criminals, and assuming a 5% discount rate, I get the present value of her housing cost to be around $327,000. More than worth it if prevents her from hooking one more kid on meth.
 
11Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 20:02
Correction: That $327,000 is taking a 5% discount after inflation. Probably not appropriate. Pick you number between $327,000 and $700,000, however. Still not $2 million, and still worth it for a drug pusher with any sort of reasonably effective network.
 
12biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 20:04
How about, lawyers, judges, court costs, appeals, extra cops to enforce the laws, appeals again, etc....
 
13Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 20:06
Quadruple post: only other story on the internet I could find to corroborate or add information to this particular case.

link

Interestingly, Charbonneau, a meth user, is mentioned in the story but apparently isn't serving time on that conviction. She's serving time for child-endangerment, 10 years. Some mild evidence that a 35 year conviction is probably for more than just casual, recreational use.
 
14Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 20:10
biliruben those things are not substantially affected by the length of sentence. The only way those items should be included would be if you were to suggest the libertarian solution of no penalties whatsoever, or extremely minor ones.

And, if you go that far, don't forget to compare the other side of the ledger -- the damage done by meth. Violent behavior, driving while drugged up, lives wrecked, etc.
 
15Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 20:23
Interesting link about caffeine. They claim that if you drink enough caffeine, it can kill you. Specifically, if you drink 80-100 cups of coffee in rapid succession . . .

Of course, if you can do that, I can think of other reasons why that might kill you, too. :)
 
16biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 20:24
LOL! Yeah, HBS - Human Bloatation Syndrom, would kill you first. ;)

If meth were legal, the lady wouldn't be dealing, would she?
 
17Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 165332019
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 20:33
Madman, I was simply pointing out a place where the drug penalties are very harsh, but there seems to be a bit of reasonable movement on the issue. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere. Or something like that.

So pick that damn gauntlet up.

pd
 
18Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 21:03
biliruben Aspirin is legal, does anyone sell it?

More generally, meth is somewhat dangerous to make. Risk of fire, toxic fumes, etc. Right now, a lot of people make it on their own to avoid the risk of getting caught buying it. Take away that risk, and more people would buy, fewer would make it.

And, of course, I haven't even touched the probable increase in usage, quality and expertise issues, etc.
 
19biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 59434124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 21:25
If legal, my guess is that after an initial spike, usage would stay relatively stable, and decline over time. Quality and expertise would obviously go up.
 
20Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 22:04
Why would meth usage decline over time? You talking about a drop after the initial spike or an actual decline in overall consumption? Or users dying off?

There's no evidence that alcohol consumption is significantly lower today than during prohibition. In fact, it's the opposite, correct?

The only argument for it declining gradually that I can see is that amphetamine-type drugs tend to be faddish. But that's true whether it's legal or not.

Regarding quality and expertise, I'm talking about the fact that people would tend to want to buy from "professional" pushers rather than make their own because of the fact they could get better made stuff that way.
 
21Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 22:16
Some evidence on alcohol:

alcohol consumption during prohibition ranged from 0.2 gallons to 1.2 gallons per year. (have no idea how they know this).

More critically, during the post-Prohibition period, there has been no overall decline in alcohol consumption.
link

See Figure 1 in that link. Alcohol consumption from 1935 to 1980 increased by 150%, more than doubling. Since that time, there has been a reasoanbly dramatic decline and levelling off to just over double the immediate post-Prohibition levels.

Maybe your argument is that after about 50 years of increasing usage, after an additional 20 years, meth consumption might decline to only double the current level of consumption?
 
22Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 22:20
BTW, to make this clear, my point with the alcohol analogy isn't to suggest that meth will actually follow alcohol consumption patterns.

Rather, the idea is that the argument that something is illegal and therefore it is consumed more -- in aggregate -- is simply not consistent with the facts. You can argue that alcohol consumption was irrelevant to legality; but the data definitely does not support the idea that alcohol consumption was inversely related to whether it was legal or not.

I would guess this is because of the fallacy of composition -- just because some people think it is cool to break the law doesn't mean that in aggregate society ends up behaving that way.
 
23Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 51656122
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 23:03
To be a better analogy, we'd have to legalize the drugs for awhile, then try to ban them.

Also, I'd need to get a new wardrobe of long coats and fedoras.

pd
 
24nerveclinic
      Donor
      ID: 5153631
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 23:16
I bet her apartment was clean...like really, really clean. Nothing like a good dose of speed to clean up the apartment.

8-)
 
25steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 23:31
I bet her cell is clean too. Even without a good dose of meth. :)

Did she just go to prison recently? Iowa was one of the states listed at a drug reform site that has reduced minimum sentencing. ?? Sorry closed window. Was at site that had story about Alabama woman that was sentenced to life for something to do with drugs and her sentence was overturned.

How much meth was she selling a month to pay for that $150K house, her car, etc and her addiction while on disability? Who was she selling it to?

I agree, 35 years sounds like a lot. And minimum sentences. Don't blame all that on the right. Country was pissed about felons being released by lenient judges.

But like Paul Harvey, I'd like to hear the rest of the story. If the other girl in Madman's link only got 10 years for child endangerment, 35 years ???????
 
26Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 51656122
      Mon, Jul 01, 2002, 23:37
Maybe they let her beat some children when she's in the big house, to make her earn her time.

pd
 
27steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 00:11
Iowa Prisons Public Info Click on Debrah.

OFFENSES: PROH.ACTS/CONTR.,CF,SIM.SUBST

??? Prohibited Acts/Controlled, CF ????, Sim.?? Substance
 
28biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 59434124
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 00:12
re: Madman #20: I was going by the experience of the swedish after legalization of heroin. A more apt comparison than alcohol after prohibition, I would think. Usage declined after legalization, I seem to recall.
 
29Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 00:20
Sweden? You mean the Netherlands right?
 
30biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 59434124
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 00:23
Maybe I mean Switzerland.
 
31Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 00:30
Who is it that is always asking me for sources and links? If those other two countries have legalized heroin I would like to read about it.
 
32biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 59434124
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 00:45
Alright. I figured you had figured out google by now. I saw the trials on 60 minutes, but I'll dig up a couple of links.

national review

American Prospect

"By the end of the trial more than 800 patients had received heroin on a regular basis, apparently without leakage into the illicit market. Seventy percent were still in treatment a year and a half later, a much higher retention rate than for most methadone programs; and Swiss researchers believe that a substantial fraction of the 30 percent who dropped out of heroin maintenance went on to other kinds of treatment. No overdose deaths were reported among participants while they stayed in the program, and their behavior exposed them to less risk of AIDS. Crime was much reduced, according to both the addicts' own reports and the government's arrest records. Those in the trial group holding jobs they described as "permanent" rose to 32 percent from 14 percent; unemployment among them fell to 20 percent from 44 percent.
 
33Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 03:09
steve houpt Your link doesn't work again. Too much browsing for you!

biliruben Those Swiss experiments don't tell us anything about decreased drug use over time, heroine or otherwise. In fact, the idea is to see if you can keep them addicted to heroine but otherwise functional in life, yes?

And the cost of this program nation-wide would be . . .

Regardless, I shouldn't get off topic here. Different drugs are different. Even if you could theoretically accomplish this with meth, I would be against it.

1) It would be much, much harder to control consumption of meth because of ease of access. Get some battery acid, anti-freeze, asthma medication, and crap and go to work;

2) meth appears to cause long-term brain damage, and it is possibly linked with increased likelihood of all sorts of serious long-term brain disorders, tumors and other nasty stuff. We don't know if the effects are permanent or just long-term. But from what I've read, there is almost no evidence of improved conditions after 9 months, and little evidence of improvement after 4 years in animals. Stopping consumption is still a good thing, since deterioration is even more rapid then, but that doesn't mean you can ever un-do the damage.

I don't care how much we are spending on the current drug war, I am not going to use tax dollars to pipe something like meth into people in an attempt to "keep them functional";

3) flip-side: If you are under medical treatment, from what I've heard, heroine is much less dangerous. Not saying it's great for you -- pulmonary diseases and such are correlated with use. But I am not aware (not super-well-read, however, so may be wrong) of studies indicating long-term and serious health consequences of heroine usage, assuming that the addiction can be controlled (big assumption, of course, especially since you build an immunity over time).

Gotta do better than that.
 
34Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 03:20
I should really do more google searching BEFORE I post . . . found this:

about heroine ... notice the words Many of the health-related consequences of heroin use are caused not by the drug itself, but by the lifestyle of the addict or the injection of heroin...

Contrast that with this link about meth.

Actually, that's not the best link for meth, but can't seem to find others. I think this one of the studies I read. This summary doesn't mention length of time after usage that the symptoms are still present; but I could swear I read a study on animals that had a 4 year lag without noticeable improvement once.

At any rate, you get the idea. As a medical practioner, you probably know more about the consequences of lowered N-acetylaspartate cells (permanently or at least long-term) than I do. I'm just taking the effects of that at surface value from these sorts of documents.
 
35biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 59434124
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 09:56
I agree Meth causes brain damage, Madman. A public defender friend of mine has told me many stories of the sorry shape of many of his defendants.

What's better, brain damaged and in prison or brain damaged and in a treatment home?

Part of why I was suggesting usage would go down is because of a strong educational program in conjunction with legalization to make potential or current users aware of how disabling meth is. I also think dosage is a big issue. If you can successfully prescribe low-doses, you may save some brains long enough for them to realize how stupid the drug is and quit.

I brought up the Swiss example because I found it more analagous to what we would see with meth. It is a very different drug however. Crack might be a better example, but we never legalized it. Switzerland wasn't a good example of decline in use in the population, however, since it wasn't instituted for the entire population of users.

In Europe, responses are varied and results are mixed.
 
36biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 59434124
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 09:59
Meth, Cannibis and Cocaine Siezure data

Warning - big pdf.
 
37Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 13:59
Madman

I don't know where you get the $2 million figure for her. Pick you number between $327,000 and $700,000.

I don't remember giving permission to use ECONOMICS in this discussion. All that does is bolster your argument :)

Believe me, we are on the same page regarding meth, it is a terrible scurge for all whom get in its path. We do differ on how we should deal with it.

This is why I hate it when people simplistically talk about the "drug war", as if you can lump the difficulties and issues of fighting marijuana in there right with something like meth.

Totally agree. The more the American public understands what marijuana, a naturally growing plant with many positive uses, the more America will realize the folly lumping all of these "drugs" into our anti-drug messages and laws. Meth truly harmful, marijuana is benign.

I don't like the way we jail meth users/dealers or deal with the fact that people desire meth. Let's use an analogy. There are studies that may point to the fact that hand-held cell phones may be unhealthy to users brains. If this is proven true, something obviously needs to be done. One way to deal with this is to make all cellphones illegal and throw any user in jail, those who sell the phones in jail for decades. I believe that would be a huge mistake.

What is much more likely to happen is that all sorts of scientists would then race to devise a new, safer cell phone technology. It is obvious that we all want to use cell phones and we all want to have access to safe phones, so every effort will be made to devise such a phone.

Why can't we put as much energy and research into finding a replacement for meth? This is why I think our Puritan ethos is preventing a truly important breakthrough. Why can't we have the press report on the various Big Pharm efforts at giving people a safe alternative to a very harmful drug, to replace what is obviously a need for a certain percentage of our population?
 
38TF
      ID: 53652213
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 14:22
Seattle Zen,

your first analogy is faulty because you compare the relative little/unknown damage that prolong long-term use of cell phones cause to the documented extensive damage that long term meth use causes. based on these faulty premises, the rest of your analogy is then incomplete.

i believe that the macro reason that drugs are illegal is because of the negative externalities that they cause.
like the fact that if you group a bunch of meth heads in public, they will tear sh*t up.
or heroin/crack addicts will eventually resort to robbing, stealing, and hooking to supply their fix. this behavior is especially cognizant in physically addictive drugs.
as for devising an alternative to meth, i do not understand what purposes it provides beyond the stimulative effects that one can get with caffeine or ephedra? if its simply for variety, then the negative externalities would greatly outweigh any benefits.
As far as the war on drugs, I believe that the majority of these physically drugs do cripple a person's ablility to function normally. Thus, they do need to be controlled. As for the level of control, thats for another debate.
As for marijuana, its legal status is probably due to legal precedence and the persistence of pharmaceutical and tobacco lobbies in Congress.
If pot were legal, who'd need cigarettes?
TF
 
39Blueballs
      ID: 45614114
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 14:25
I don't think that it is possible to create a safe replacement for [insert your favorite stimulant]. If the replacement has no evident side effects, than people may inadvertantly overuse it, for instance staying up too long, and dying of exhaustion. (or something along those lines). Like Madman said before, Big Pharms love our money, and would do just about anything legal to get it. I'm sure they're either trying, or have determined this replacement impossible for whatever reason.
 
40Blueballs
      ID: 45614114
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 14:31
If pot were legal, who'd need cigarettes?

There is a HUGE market for cigarettes throughout the world, where Mary Jane is still illegal, which Big Farms (Tobacco) keep expanding by targetting children, often times not even masking it as the World has few laws against it.
 
41Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 14:57
I'm not entirely sure that I believe in the concept of drug "pushers". Does anyone here actually know someone who was deliberately "hooked" by a narcotics dealer? From an early age, I was warned by my parents, that's how they get ya, the first few times its free, or they might not even tell you whats in it, then you can't stop and they've got a customer for life! A scary prospect sure, but frankly, I don't know of anyone who was persuaded to try drugs by a dealer. The closest thing I know of is big tobacco marketing their products to children, but cigarettes are legally sold in the US.

Maybe I'm naive, but controlled substance experimentation, use and (to a lesser degree) abuse is a subject that I've got some fairly extensive personal experience with, more than I've seen others admit about themselves on these boards. I also have seen numerous friends go much further down some of those paths than I had allowed myself to wander, and everyone that I know that tried any addictive substances did so either by their own free and knowing will and/or because of some degree of peer pressure - but not at the hands of anyone who stood to profit from it.
 
42biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 15:05
Never met a pusher either, MITH. Any "dealers" I've dealt with were either buds who were trying to take into account the obvious economies of scale and share with friends who already also partook (often with no profit involved), or low-level grunts supporting their habits a dime-bag or a crack vile at a time in the east village or brooklyn.
 
43Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 15:35
MITH and billi - I've encountered quite a few "pushers" who live up to that title. They target kids, get them hooked on meth or heroin or OC's and then bleed them dry. It's prevalent. It's not a myth.

Right now, I'm dealing with dozens of teenagers hooked on OCs - all by the same source. This fu$%er used his own kids to lure their friends and classmates to his house where he got them hooked. He was hauling in over $100k exclusively off of teenagers. It was a concerted, explicit effort by him to target kids. We had subburban kids stealing everything from Mommy's coin jar to autos to feed their addiction.

Obviously, most people who sell drugs aren't "pushers" - but they're still out there.
 
44Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 15:43
What are OCs?
 
45Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 22347210
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 15:45
Did you nail him, MBJ?
 
46Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 15:51
OC's are oxycontins - a prsecription drug that is, by far, the the most addictive, and most grossly abused drug I've ever encountered. Abusers grind the pills into powder, boil it to liquid form, and inject it, for a serious high.

PD - the Feds have him - I've got the juveniles.
 
47Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 15:53
They're calling OC "hillybilly heroin" because of it's prevalence in some of the mountain South states.
 
48Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 22347210
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 15:54
Good. That man is giving drugs a bad name!

OCs are quite addictive. Still a Class II drug if I recall correctly. I used to be a pharmacy tech years ago and we sold a decent amount of OC meds (not a ton of them). But nearly all fake prescriptions we received were for OCs.

pd
 
49Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 16:01
With OC - the doctors who rampantly overprescribe them, the pharmacists who knowingly fill fraudulent presriptions, and most of all, the corporation which markets the drug to doctors for purposes they all know are beyond what the drug should be used for (only for terminally ill, cancer patients) are as bad as the worst scummy, crack-dealin' gang-banger on the street. It's a real problem here - and it's coming to a city near you.
 
50Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 16:09
OC and the white collar criminals you've just described could very well be the HUGE disaster/story of the rest of the decade, MBJ.
 
51Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 16:39
Madman 9
This is why I hate it when people simplistically talk about the "drug war", as if you can lump the difficulties and issues of fighting marijuana in there right with something like meth.

I agree (sort of), though I view this as one of the great flaws of the war on drugs, not a misunderstanding on the part of people who criticize it. I've read about some pretty unbelievable sentences handed down to marajuana offenders, many of them just for possession, many of them 1st time offenders. The wagers of the drug war (and from what I've seen, the majority of this sentiment comes from the right) seem trapped in the outdated and amiss idea that drugs are drugs and they all ruin your life and hook you and they all need to get dealt with the same way. Maybe you are witnessing a different drug war than I am, but lumping marajuana with things like meth and crack seems to be a what this "war" is all about.

#9
How many people did she hook?

Regardless, I have little sympathy for drug pushers, and you have presented no evidence she was a particularly benign one.


#11
...and still worth it for a drug pusher with any sort of reasonably effective network.

I don't think there is any reason to assume that the term 'pusher' accurately describes Debra Breuklander. If it does, I have no problem with the sentence, but you seem happy to assume she was going around tricking people into meth addictions. 35 years is absurd for someone who peddles any controlled substance to an aware clientelle, especially for a first offense.
 
52steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 17:41
Back to #27

Public Info, Iowa Prisons (enter name)

No real info, not sure what the abbreviations mean for her convictions.

Madman - Hard to teach an old dog new tricks. As bad as Netscape was, when I changed windows, the URL changed in top line. IE or whatever AOL uses keeps last page you searched, loaded, or reloaded. I go back to Iowa prisons and just copy URL (blindly), insert and because I had reloaded this thread last, it's still in URL line. Screws an old dog up (late at night). I'm here at rotoguru, and URL is Iowa Prisons.
 
53Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 19:24
steve houpt not sure what those offenses are, either. No key, or anything.

MITH I don't think there is any reason to assume that the term 'pusher' accurately describes Debra Breuklander.

Actually, the 35 year sentence is one reason. I would assume a "pusher" would get harsher punishment than others. Regardless, it is extremely hard to determine the degree of pushing versus simple selling to an "aware" clientelle. Meth is such a deadly substance, I don't have a lot of sympathy for either, to be frank.

Regarding the "war" and mixing up different drugs, there are reasons to support your argument, and reasons not to. The structure of the war is definitely not like that; simply change the categorization of marijuana, and you change the way law enforcement would deal with it. The structure is there for differential treatment for different drugs. Thus, I would disagree that this is what the war is "all about". People on the left want to portray it like that for whatever reason.

biliruben Fair enough. But I think what you're talking about with meth is pure theory. You have to show me that the government policy is designed to reduce or eliminate meth usage before I would support it. Of course, giving some meth temporarily as a means to encourage people to quit or to suppress withdrawal symptoms isn't amoral. However, the design of the heroine studies is to sustain the drug use, and this is unacceptable for meth.

Because of this, and the fact that meth is easy to make and get ahold of illegally, I don't see how any sort of government provision of meth in anything other than a pure rehab center would work.
 
54nerveclinic
      Donor
      ID: 5153631
      Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 00:35
MBJ

I think we all agree that anyone pushing serious drugs on minors should have a special cell with a lost key. I have never heard anyone in the legalization community say that it should be legal for an adult to sell drugs to a minor.

I know you didn't imply anyone said that but I want to go on the record.
 
55Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 49618222
      Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 01:29
54 nerve Late in this thread...but does SZ believe it should be illegal for an adult to sell drugs to a minor? Does biliruben? I would be surprised if SZ did...if these drugs are innocent---->mind-liberating, why should it be illegal?

I'm going to have to read upon meth and the like before I can make a more positive construction to this debate. Right now,very exepensive rose is working for me.... :)

Toral
 
56TF
      ID: 30647313
      Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 13:59
the reason she got 35 was for trafficking.
there are mandatory federal prison sentences for all drug offenses (thanks ronald reagan's puppeteers). since she probably got caught with a large amount of her stash on hand in addition to lots cash and records, she probably got the maximum and multiple counts. (they probably snuck a narc in to make a buy, then got a search warrant based on the narc's purchase, then they cleaned up)
ironically, the main reason our federal prisons are overcrowded is because of these drug offenders. since these mandatory sentences also carry little hope of parole, all these offenders usually have to serve 80-90 percent of their sentence. now if you just severely beat your neighbor you can be out in less than a year. but if you get caught with some "stuff", some cash, and caught selling to a narc, then kiss your "a.." goodbye literally.
as far as pushing, most dealers don't call clients, the clients call them.
as far as pushing drugs on kids? that only happens on tv. and tobacco companies.
it makes no economic sense to push drugs on kids.
you waste their earning potential before it gets started. real drugs are expensive. better to hook adults who have jobs......ie crack, cocaine..etc...
 
57Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 18:07
Toral

After reading this story, I am now convinced that if you can catch as much fish as an adult, you deserve a hit on the bong ;)

Seriously, just like I tell my daughter, there are things that adults can do (driving, sex, watchin porn, alcohol, gambling, smoking, drugs, swearing, coffee) that kids cannot. Not too difficult a distinction.
 
58steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Thu, Jul 04, 2002, 00:26
TF - everything I can find says she is in the Iowa state womens prison in Mitchellville for violation of Iowa laws, so blame the people of Iowa (or maybe thank them). As far as I can tell, she was not convicted of a federal crime.

Also, in "tough" Iowa, there were less than 600 women in "prison". Rest are in Community Based Corrections programs (low risk probabtion, work release, etc).

Only crimes in Iowa that you have to serve a max (85%) are:

_2nd degree murder
_1st and 2nd degree robbery
_2nd degree sexual abuse
_2nd degree kidnapping
_Vehicular Homicide with leaving the scene of an accident.
_Attempted murder

Iowa Law Search Engine

Check:
124.401 (A-E) Manufacture and Distribution
124.406 Distribution to Minors

Minimum of 10 years for distrbution to a minor of a class I or II (meth) is 10 years (124.401D).

Minimum sentence served for drug offenses (33%).

She really pissed someone off to get sentenced to 35 years. Would love to find case to see real story. (Hey, can get parole in less than 12)

Maximum sentance for felons 902.9

At top of list is 124.401D (own special line) - Maximun of 99 years.

Only got 35. Easy judge. :):):)
 
59biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 59434124
      Wed, Jul 10, 2002, 12:01
You no longer will get arrested for smoking dope in Britain.

The cannabis downgrade will put the drug in the same category as anabolic steroids and growth hormones.

The drug szar resigned as well. His outrage, and his reasons were pretty humorous.
 
60Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 2065918
      Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 20:11
I recently came across this article which I found to be very interesting. It's by Ethan Nadelman, the head of the Drug Policy Alliance, a progressive drug issues organization.

The article appeared in the latest edition of Counselor Magazine, for which my company acts as rights agency. I only came across it because I received a request to reprint the article in the next edition of CriminalDefense.com, which I'm sure you all subscribe to!

Anyway, I thought it was a reasonable essay on this topic, so there you go.

pd
 
61Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Thu, Jul 25, 2002, 12:56
Thanks, PD. I've met Ethan, he is a GREAT speaker, and my buddy from law school runs his D.C. office. He is an excellent model of a well spoken, well researched, honest activist.

This administration's bottom line on drug policy ultimately has little to do with helping people who struggle with drugs, much less those who have been arrested for a drug offense. Like the temperance warriors who shaped alcohol policy during the first decades of this century, their policies are really about punishing people for the sin of drug use.

There are some amazing things coming up this November. Check this out, Nevadans for Responsible Law Enforcement's ballot initiative will allow adults to possess up to three ounces of cannabis and

Require the state government to implement a system whereby adults could obtain marijuana through a legally regulated market, rather than from the criminal market.

Wow, hash bars right here in the USA. And to think, just last year Nevada had the HARSHEST marijuana laws in the country.

San Francisco is also thumbing its nose at the Bush Admin. with this plan: San Francisco could become the first city in the nation to get into the pot-growing business to supply patients with medicinal marijuana, under a measure headed for the November ballot.

The Canadian government converted an abandoned mine in Manitoba into what may be the world's largest grow room in order to provide ill patients with medicine. SF sounds like it wants to grow above ground, using the California sun to give those buds that extra stickiness that makes the nausia go "bye-bye". I can feel the glaucoma subsiding as I type this!

Leno envisions growing cannabis on vacant city property and says the program could double as agriculture job training for the city's unemployed.

Maybe the West needs to seceed from the Union. All of the clowns in dark suits in the "other Washington" can't seem to get it through their Neaderthal brows that out West, we want marijuana to be legal.

On a personal, but related note, I-75, Seattle's Initiative that orders the police to stop arresting adults with marijuana in their possession, turned in our signatures on Monday. We will continue to gather for the next three or four weeks to make sure that we have enough vaild signatures. I have personally gathered 1,300 and I am in a race with one other guy for the top spot, but he is unemployed and has a lot more time to do it. I am the best, I will beat him.
 
63Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 10:30
That's funny, I thought that was what the NYTimes notion that religious conservatives have turned on Johnny Ashcroft ha come to.
; )
 
64Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 10:38
Maybe THIS is what the "War on Drugs" will come to..


Ooops - Wrong link before - Thanks MITH
 
65Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 10:48
Well, I suppose it has just as much chance to be effective as anything else they've tried. I wonder what Nancy Reagan would think about that idea.

OT, but an interesting link from MBJ's link.
In a related report from Madinah, an Indonesian maid was arrested for practicing sorcery to lure her sponsor toward her and hate his wife, Al-Nadwa reported yesterday. The sponsor discovered her illegal practice while the family moved to a new building. The man immediately complained to police.

In a third incident, an elderly woman was arrested in Hail after she allegedly resorted to witchcraft in a bid to cause separation between some close relatives.
 
66James K Polk
      ID: 13516513
      Fri, Jul 26, 2002, 20:29
Talk about your mainstreaming ...

ABC is running a news special on Tuesday night featuring John Stossel: "War on Drugs, a War on Ourselves." According to the promo we've got, it "asks whether some of the world's biggest problems stem not from the drugs themselves, but from the prohibition of drugs." Apparently Stossel interviews drug sellers and users, farmers in Colombia, and government officials.
 
67Bungers
      Leader
      ID: 286222617
      Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 10:38
This is from Johns email newsletter. I have always thought Stossel was on the ball:

Return-Path: Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:11:56 -0700
Subject: Is the 'War on Drugs' Worse Than the Drugs?
To: "Stossel Letter" From: John Stossel Reply-To: John Stossel
ABC has given me a full hour Tuesday night at 10 p.m. ET for a show on the
drug war. I use the time to raise the question: Does the "War on Drugs"
do more harm than the drugs?

I think it does.

We know the terrible things drug abuse does, but we rarely consider the
terrible things drug prohibition does.

The government declaring drugs illegal doesn't mean people can't get them.
(We cannot even keep the drugs out of prisons -- how could we keep them out
of America?) It only means people get drugs on the black market, where
they pay more for them.

This creates the nasty, unintended consequences of the drug war:

l. It sucks children into the underworld.

Why should a kid from a poor neighborhood work at McDonald's, when he can
make 10 times the money selling drugs? Those who resist the temptation
are heroic. The neighborhood role models, the people with the best cars
and the best clothing, are drug dealers. Who commands respect in the
neighborhood? Criminals! Had I grown up there, I bet I would have
succumbed. We interview the kids.

2. It corrupts cops.

How many cops turn down a bribe that would double their pay? We'll show
video of a police officer taking the money.

3. It corrupts entire countries.

We go to Colombia, which now produces most of America's heroin and
cocaine. I don't recommend vacationing there. Colombia is now the world
leader in kidnappings. Murder is common. There have already been 15
attempts on the life of Colombia's next president; he's decided to stay in
Europe until his inauguration next month. Drug money trumps law.

4. It creates crime.

Films like "Reefer Madness" (we'll show you a clip) suggested people take
drugs and go crazy. In reality, people rarely get violent because they're
high on drugs.

Most drugs users get high privately, live a reasonably normal life, and
eventually quit. The violence we associate with drugs happens because
warring dealers arm themselves to protect their turf, and because addicts
steal to pay the high prices for drugs. Nicotine is about as addictive as
cocaine or heroin, but few people rob 7-11s to get Marlboros or Budweiser.
Drugs hurt people, but it's the law that causes most of the crime.
Alcohol prohibition gave rise to criminals like Al Capone; drug
prohibition is making criminals even richer. The State Department says
that's how Osama bin Laden got some of his money.

So what should be done?

I talk to a Bronx priest who argues that life would be better if drugs
were legal. "Legal means control," says Father Joseph Kane. "Illegal means
the bad guys have control."

California Judge James Gray agrees. "Hold people accountable for what they
do, not for what they put into their bodies," he says.

The head of the DEA, Asa Hutchinson, calls these arguments "giving in."

I go to Europe to look at the "Dutch experiment" which separated "hard" and
"soft" drugs by legalizing the sale of marijuana in licensed "coffee
shops." The menus offer marijuana joints, baggies, teas and chocolates.
Despite legalization, fewer Dutch teens use marijuana than American teens.

Today police in most of Europe ignore marijuana use. In Spain, Italy and
Luxembourg, they've decriminalized most drug use, and in Portugal
recently, all drug use. Switzerland and a few other countries now
prescribe heroin to some addicts. I visit a Rotterdam priest who allows
addicts to smoke and inject heroin in "user rooms" in the church basement.
Rotterdam's local police superintendent says the problem is "bigger" when
the police interfere.

LEGAL drugs sounds frightening -- but the DRUG WAR is frightening too.

Legal drugs might lead more Americans to experiment, but would it create a
health crisis? I suspect use would go up, and then down, as it did with
crack. People aren't endlessly foolish.

In any case, don't we own our own bodies? Whose decision is it to control
what we put in our own bodies? Ours? Or the state's?

---
For more on this and the all the latest news, go to
http://abcnews.go.com/Sections/2020/index.html?cmp=EM1388
 
68Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 12:27
This creates the nasty, unintended consequences of the drug war:

1) It sucks children into the underworld.

Why won't it suck children into the world of drug use if you make it "legal", too? Surely it will be illegal for kids to use, they'll still have to get their stuff in the black-market, etc.

2) Corrupt Cops. Please. Yes, some cops probably take money. But a video of some cops taking bribes does not a corrupt police force make.

3) It Corrupts entire countries. How would legalization HERE prevent corruption THERE? It still would be a multi-billion dollar industry; thugs would still be able to profit from it, etc.

4) Most drugs users get high privately, live a reasonably normal life, and eventually quit. Eventually quit? They eventually quit if it is illegal. For this to be a meaningful argument, you have to persuade that they will eventually quit if it is legal.

5) The State Department says
that's how Osama bin Laden got some of his money
. Afghanistan growns opium. Duh. Afghanistan would do that with or without drugs being illegal. Therefore, Bin Laden would have gotten some of his money from drugs, whether they were legal or illegal.

General comments:

1) It is silly to talk about "IT". Some parts of the drug war simply have to exist; you cannot legalize all drugs, and virtually all drugs must be illegal for children consumption.

2) Nicotine is available in 7-11's. Cocaine should be too? What about crack? Meth? Morphine? Where do you draw the line? I think people are deluding themselves by suggesting that simply making some drugs partially legal will call a truce in the drug war.

The real problem here is that the "war on drugs" isn't a "war" at all. It is simply society attempting to protect itself from certain substances. You can argue that some substances should change their categorization; but to argue that we should end the drug "war" is to argue that all substances should be available all the time -- a proposition that is absurd. Short of this, the "war" will continue, but simply in re-defined areas. Calling for the "end of the drug war" is as much demogaugery as calling the whole thing a "war on drugs" to begin with. Neither is accurate.
 
69Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 13:47
Madman, Great issues raised. I found a number of problems with his article, too and I agree with some of your criticisms, but I'm not sure I understad you with regard to others.

1) Why won't it suck children into the world of drug use if you make it "legal", too?
Stossel obviously specifically means criminal activity when he says 'underworld'. Obviously, some children will continue to do drugs, but today, children who do drugs buy their drugs from drug dealers and more often than not become drug dealers themselves. Decriminalization eliminates the black market for drugs. Many kids wouldn't be taught so early to readily accept breaking the law as a lifestyle if the drugs they will inevitably do don't come with the stigma of criminal behavior. While a certain predisposition will surely remain in the statistics, I believe it would be greatly lessened.
For example, consider children who smoke cigarettes before the age of 14. They haveto acquire cigarettes illegally at their age, but they do not need to familiarize themselves with the same seedy criminal element as if they were using narcotics. Young cigarette smokers are certainly more likely to commit crimes later in adolesence than than children that age who don't smoke, but are they as likely to commit later crimes as children their age who smoke pot? I have no statistics to back this up, but I think most would agree on the answer. If I'm right about that, the only reason that young pot smokers are more likely to continue their delinquency than young tobacco smokers would have to be that pot can only be used and distributed illegally.
I feel his point #1 is very valid.

2)I fully agree that the "drug trade corrupts our good cops" is a stupid argument.

3) It Corrupts entire countries. How would legalization HERE prevent corruption THERE? It still would be a multi-billion dollar industry; thugs would still be able to profit from it, etc.
More off the cuff here so if anyone can provide statistics to refute this I'd be interested in seeing them, but I always figured it was common knowledge that many foreign narcotics producers/suppliers/trafficers - especially in Central and South America - enjoy their greatest profits (by far) from the USA. Allow the stuff to be developed here, either privately or federally, mantain the quality for relative safety to the user and tax the hell out of it and even if you don't eliminate the operation over there, but surely you agree that doing so would shrink it severely.

4) Most drugs users get high privately, live a reasonably normal life, and eventually quit. Eventually quit? They eventually quit if it is illegal. For this to be a meaningful argument, you have to persuade that they will eventually quit if it is legal.
Agreed that his "most eventually quit" argument is mostly pointless. But that seemed secondary with regard to his overall item #4. By not addressing it, are you essentially agreeing that most drug users get high in private and rarely commit violent acts while under the influence, and that most of the harmful violence related to drug use is actually commited by those who illegally deal it?

Since we don't see inner-city thugs shooting one another over cigarettes and alcohol, I think it a safe bet that total decriminalization would effectively end the drug wars on American soil. I have to wonder why so many people think that a more prominant addiction epidemic - even if current use were to double (doubt it) - is worse than the current conditions (which are likely to worsen considering our current national economic standing) that exist in our inner cities. And we don't even know for sure that we wouldn't be able to curb the increase in abuse. Maybe saying so sounds hackneyed to you, but I feel it's about time this thing was looked at as a medical problem rather than a criminal one. Anyone -anyone who wants to acquire narcotics in this country can do so with little difficulty. Based on that I am not convinced that all the money spent on gathering information, policing, profiling, prosecuting and incarcerating for the drug war has made even a dent in total illegal drug use here.
 
70Bungers
      Leader
      ID: 286222617
      Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 13:47
Madman, you're right. So let's keep doing what we're doing.

More of what doesn't work has just got to work if we keep trying, right? ;)
 
71Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 13:50
Sorry. I meant to say;
I have to wonder why so many people think that the addiction epidemic - even if current use were to double (doubt it) - is worse than the current conditions (which are likely to worsen considering our current national economic standing) that exist in our inner cities.

Further on that, lets face it, right now we have both problems to deal with. Decriminalization eliminates one of them and allows us to more strongly focus on the other.
 
72Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 17:00
Bungers 70 I'm not saying we should continue the fight the way we are doing it. I've said before I could support legalization of some less dangerous drugs like Marijuana. But I obviously am NOT in favor of making a dramatic change with certain more powerful drugs.

Even if we go to a Swiss gov't administered heroin project, I still would argue that street herion should be illegal, for example. You've already heard me on meth, for which I see no other viable solution than status quo fighting.

You say it "doesn't work". But I say that -- in the areas where the drugs are most dangerous -- it is the best we have. Furthermore, it is easy to criticize the visible problems and ignore the invisible benefits (the kid who didn't try crack because he didn't want to hang out or be seen with or otherwise go to the trouble of finding a crack dealer).

MITH Kids would still become drug dealers for their friends; older siblings would become drug dealers for younger siblings and their friends. All of that is black-market and illegal.

In general, I don't buy into the slippery-slope, you break one law you'll break another. MLK represents a very American independent streak, I think. You don't like a law, you break it. Doesn't mean you will break other laws. So, from that perspective, "drawing the kids into the underworld" isn't something that concerns me too much now, even.

I suppose that maybe I am assuming that it will not be any easier for kids to get drugs after legalization (i.e., we'll pump more money into enforcement of that specifically). However, maybe you are right, and it will get easier for kids to get drugs, meaning that the economic forces that support drug-related effects of children gang violence might decline. However, making it easier for kids to get drugs has other worse problems.

All of this is made comically worse by the fact that there are likely other ways of reducing the profitability of inner city drug distribution. For example, I would support a modern version of the old stockade punishment for drug BUYERS -- the suburban white folks who get off without proper punishment under today's law. Not sure of the specifics, but the point is that making the conviction of these people public would be a tremendous deterrent. If the local physician knew that he might totally lose all his white suburban customers if he gets caught buying crack from the local dealer, he might think twice before doing it.

3) Central and South America profits from US drug buyers. True. Don't see how that would change in the future. Marijuana, yes, but that's a tiny piece of the profit. For Coke and heroine and that stuff, we are still going to have to import large quantities of it.

I'll grant that it is POSSIBLE that the price farmers get for growing it will drop by enough to reduce gang warfare. But also don't forget that Columbia will lose American funds for their drug-war, too, I would imagine. So the loss of profit has to be greater than the effect of our loss of support.

4) By not addressing it, are you essentially agreeing that most drug users get high in private and rarely commit violent acts while under the influence, and that most of the harmful violence related to drug use is actually commited by those who illegally deal it?

Yes. Note: I'm not sure he's right; I dunno, so I didn't address it. It's kind of a stupid point, actually. I mean, it's quite possible that "most" murderers won't kill again. That argument is quite irrelevant to me, since the fraction that might do it again is high enough that I still consider murderers dangerous.

I am not convinced that all the money spent on gathering information, policing, profiling, prosecuting and incarcerating for the drug war has made even a dent in total illegal drug use here.

I think this is the common reason why people oppose the war on drugs. It is the wrong definition for failure; the appropriate definition is whether or not the drug war has made a dent on potential drug use.

You say that anyone can get narcotics if they want them; I personally didn't want to, partly because of the problems that would have ensued if I had gotten caught by the police. Furthermore, you should not mistake the alleged fact that you CAN get it with the relevant fact that you have to do something to get it. For a large portion of the population, it is harder than simply going down to Wal Mart and picking up your asthma prescription. Greater difficulty does not imply "cannot"; greater difficulty implies "less likely to".

Contrary to the general position of the left, people (even teens) do NOT generally engage in more of a behavior if it is illegal. Alcohol consumption went down during prohibition, and it is much higher now that it is legal. The Netherlands are moving to restrict coffee shops from schools zones, from what I hear, to help make it slightly more difficult for them to get marijuana. CAN they still get it? Sure. But the question is WILL they?

So, is the drug war a "Failure"? Depends on what your meaning of the word "Failure" is. I have no problem with trying to re-define and re-shape the tactics, coverage or rhetoric of the current "war". But I do not and will not unconditionally surrender; especially when we are doing quite a bit of good overall, I would guess.
---------------------------------------
I should end there, but since this was originally a sports forum, here's a partially accurate analogy. I've coached distance runners and been a runner myself. A number of runner wannabe's visibly slow down when they start experiencing significant pain; sometimes that pain does indeed mean you are getting your ass kicked and you have to slow down or quit. But especially among inexperienced runners who aren't stubborn enough, there is a noticable tendency to think "F#%@ this, I'm dying, I've gotta quit." They, of course, then fulfill that prophesy and choose to lose. During their suffering, or perhaps because of it, they forget their earlier resolve to press on and they forget that pain is just part of the process. The pain causes them to lose sight of the bigger picture. This is always made worse by the apparent effortless and relentless drive of the runners around you and right in front of you. You can't see into their minds and see how much pain they are going through; the human mind tends to concentrate on its own survival instinct and forget that you just might be causing other people around you to think about quitting, too.

So often with respect to tactics and warfare, especially recently, I see this same myopic thinking. We were losing the war in Afghanistan (prior to the collapse); why were we losing? Because the media saw our suffering and our effort and looking around and seeing how "effortless" the runners around us looked. They forgot that we were causing the Taliban pain, too.

With respect to the drug war, we will never get people to quit growing, making or selling drugs. There is no defined finish line. But we can cause a lot of bad people a lot of pain, hopefully causing them to get fewer drugs to fewer people, and ultimately hooking fewer people. Unfortunately, we never see the pain we may or may not be causing, so it is almost impossible to know for sure if we are running next to Gebrselassie (10K world record holder) or some shmuck like me that has been feasting on pizza and pop for too many years and not running a whit.

Deciding how much effort to exert in such an environment of uncertainty is indeed a difficult quandry. Every quality runner I know has stories of where they went too far and broke themselves rather than their competition. It's just a fact of life. But rather than abandoning the fight and arguing "I just can't win" or "this hurts too much", you keep fighting and focus on the places where you can press your advantage. Otherwise, you'll never win anything, not even a moral victory.
 
73biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 17:15
You've already heard me on meth, for which I see no other viable solution...
-Madman

The wonders of context. :')
 
74biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 17:18
I ran cross-country and track for a full season, with my coach telling me my pain was just shin-splints. Finally I decided to visit someone who actually knew what they were talking about. Both legs were fractured, very similar to our drug policy and our inner cities.

The problem with analogies.
 
75Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 17:32
biliruben hahaha. How do you know what I meant by being on meth? :)

Well, I did say it was a "a partially accurate analogy" . . . .

Shin splints to broken legs is a bit extreme. Your coach was, pardon this, kind of an idiot.

I assume they were stress fractures rather than actual breaks? Sometimes it IS hard to actually tell when someone has a stress fracture vs. other ailments. But even then... I mean, usually there are warning signs with shin splints months or years in advance; foot-strike mechanics that are noticeable; shoe-alterations that may have an effect; differing pain levels depending on activity level and length; etc. Maybe your first few weeks of pain the first season you've ever run. But a year, that's absurd.
--------

Actually, though, I wasn't trying to say that we can't break ourselves into pieces. I was actually trying to say that there is considerable uncertainty and you can't just focus on OUR pain without keeping in mind that the very nature of information in this environment biases our perspective.

It's hard to run on two broken legs; but the shin-splint analogy would work. If you have shin-splint problems, you can make adjustments to training, mechanics, or otherwise to keep yourself in the race. Pain very often is simply a signal that adjustments need to be made. Good runners disassociate the emotional attachment we have to the lack of pain and focus instead on its informational value. Perhaps another part of the analogy that works, although not sure.
 
76biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Mon, Jul 29, 2002, 18:07
To a certain extent, I understand and agree with your statement that people often ignore prevention. In public health we see this all the time. Few are interested in paying to keep our water clean, our environment safe, and prevent epidemics of infectious and non-infectious disease, injury, crime, and drug abuse in the population. When the actually have a given disease, however, the sky's often the limit to what they would pay to be healthy again, even if the prevention costs are significantly lower than the treatment costs (which admittedly they not always are).

Prevention of drug-use, particularly among kids, is a very different issue than food inspectors for restaurants, however. A teen's motivations are extremely complex and variable, and I am not sure that rates of drug use wouldn't decline rather than rise, if confronted with legality and a minimal barrier to obtaining drugs. Look at the Tobacco industry. As part of some of their early settlements, they had to spend large amount of money on advertising to theoretically dissuade kids from smoking. They agreed, but insisted on having an active role in the advertising campaigns. They used messages like "smoking is for adults" and things of that nature, knowing full well that kids by and large want to be/act grown up. Their was an actual increase in teen smoking among some of these communities with the ad campaigns. Rebellion is a large part of growing up, and the illegality of drugs is a large part of what makes them attractive to many teens, imho.

I don't think our drug policy just needs tweaking or adjustments, I think that how it's fundemental principals produces many of the problems that it claims to want to solve. Similar to running through hurdles but not being told to jump.
 
77Bungers
      Leader
      ID: 286222617
      Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 09:54
Madman 72: Bungers 70 I'm not saying we should continue the fight the way we are doing it. I've said before I could support legalization of....

I know, man, but I had to disagree with something you said just once. :)
 
78steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 11:15
Long (long) opinion on war on drugs from National Review by a group including Ethan Nadelmann (has an article in Perm Dude post), lead by William F Buckley.

Will read past intro later. Have to go for now.

War on Drugs is Lost

Things being as they are, and people as they are, there is no way to prevent somebody, somewhere, from concluding that ``NATIONAL REVIEW favors drugs.'' We don't; we deplore their use; we urge the stiffest feasible sentences against anyone convicted of selling a drug to a minor. But that said, it is our judgment that the war on drugs has failed, that it is diverting intelligent energy away from how to deal with the problem of addiction, that it is wasting our resources, and that it is encouraging civil, judicial, and penal procedures associated with police states. We all agree on movement toward legalization, even though we may differ on just how far.

We are joined in our judgment by Ethan A. Nadelmann, a scholar and researcher; Kurt Schmoke, a mayor and former prosecutor; Joseph D. McNamara, a former police chief; Robert W. Sweet, a federal judge and former prosecutor; Thomas Szasz, a psychiatrist; and Steven B. Duke, a law professor. Each has his own emphases, as one might expect. All agree that the celebrated war has failed, and that it is time to go home, and to mobilize fresh thought on the drug problem in the context of a free society. This symposium is our contribution to such thought.
--THE EDITORS

 
79Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 19652912
      Tue, Jul 30, 2002, 13:33
Thanks for this, Source.

The courage of some conservatives to re-examine this issue in the face of nearly hysterical efforts at ratcheting up the "War on Drugs" is great to see. The more I read about this the more I agree that we need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture here.

pd
 
80Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 11:39
Madman 72
Kids would still become drug dealers for their friends; older siblings would become drug dealers for younger siblings and their friends. All of that is black-market and illegal.

Surely, you don't equate Johnny's older brother buying Johnny and his pals a six-pack or a pack of cigarettes or a bag of decriminalized weed with organized gangs of armed street thugs keeping entire neighborhoods under seige? I've lived in some high crime areas and seen first hand what the illegal drug trade has done to some of those places. From that I can only imagine how much worse it gets in some of our worst urban low-income housing projects and rural and suburban trailer parks and other very poor communities.

In general, I don't buy into the slippery-slope, you break one law you'll break another. MLK represents a very American independent streak, I think. You don't like a law, you break it. Doesn't mean you will break other laws. So, from that perspective, "drawing the kids into the underworld" isn't something that concerns me too much now, even.

So you're saying that people only deal drugs because they don't like the current drug laws? Are you nuts? The current drug laws are the bread and butter of our nation's drug dealers. If you don't think that exposing poor kids in high crime communities to the obscene glorification and profits of drug dealing makes them want to be drug dealers themselves then I don't know what to say. For America's poor, there is way too much to gain and far too little to lose to not try your hand at dealing.

...the economic forces that support drug-related effects of children gang violence might decline. However, making it easier for kids to get drugs has other worse problems.

Well, since in my opinion addiction is more easily treatable than murder, and most people stand a greater chance of surviving experimentation with narcotics than they do fast-aproaching bullets, I'd have to disagree that the possibility of increased addiction among children or any age group is a worse problem than current drug trade related violence.

And you have yet to address the blatent fact that decriminalization will allow for who knows how much federal money to be redistributed into treatment and prevention education. I've heard the post-prohibition argument regarding 'amont of use' countless times, but how much money was spent on educating the public about the dangers of alcohol in the period following prohibition? Alcohol is looked at much differently by our society than even tobacco products, much less pot and harder drugs. Also, prohibition was a long time ago and much has changed since. There are far too many differences to draw any clear conclusions from post-prohibition alcohol consumption.

I'll grant that it is POSSIBLE that the price farmers get for growing it will drop by enough to reduce gang warfare. But also don't forget that Columbia will lose American funds for their drug-war, too, I would imagine. So the loss of profit has to be greater than the effect of our loss of support.

I'm not sure that I understand exactly what you're getting at there, so if I'm off track let me know, but I don't see how or why 1 pound of unrefined coco powder would continue to be worth $2,000.00 American to these farmers. It's a plant that could probably be grown in much of the southern US, and I'd think that here the industry could be streamlined so as to be much more efficient. I don't see why we couldn't wash our hands of the Central and South American exporters completely. But even if for whatever reason we couldn't, surely the US will not import the stuff at that price - especially when it knows it can be grown domestically much cheaper.

As far as Columbian and other foreign farmers are concerned, if we use just a fraction of the money we're spending fighting their export on building those people some roads to aid in transporting some less profitable crops, they just might be able to eke out a living doing so. Obviously, some would continue to grow and process unrefined drugs, but the stuff becomes far less valuable (as I believe you concede - tho I'm still not sure exactly what gang warfare you refer to here) and less attractive to produce.

I'm not sure he's right; I dunno, so I didn't address it. It's kind of a stupid point, actually. I mean, it's quite possible that "most" murderers won't kill again. That argument is quite irrelevant to me, since the fraction that might do it again is high enough that I still consider murderers dangerous.

I don't get the connection. It is reasonable to conclude that murderers are dangerous because they have shown a capability to commit murder. What does that have to do with people who take morphine or heroine? I have no statistics, so I guess that's why you say the point is stupid, but I thik it really stands up to reason that if you eliminate addicts committing robberies to pay for their next high, I think we'd find the ratio of violent crimes committed by intoxicated drug users that has nothing to do with trade is about the same as those committed by people who are drunk on alcohol alone. If you're saying it's a stupid argument because no such assertion regarding intoxication related violence is actually made by the proponents of the drug war, then I think you're missing out on the "Reefer Madness" perception of drug use, which is alive, well and thriving among my parent's generation, and clearly continues to exist within ours.

I think this (that I am not convinced that all the money spent on the drug war has made even a dent in total illegal drug use here) is the common reason why people oppose the war on drugs. It is the wrong definition for failure; the appropriate definition is whether or not the drug war has made a dent on potential drug use.

Show me proof that spending that money on 'prevention education' rather than "war" won't stop more potential drug use and I'll concede that point. I think there is absolutely no way to know for sure without trying, and considering the very questionable effects on current potential use and clearly limited overall success of the war, I don't feel we stand to lose much by changing gears and trying something different.

Contrary to the general position of the left, people (even teens) do NOT generally engage in more of a behavior if it is illegal.

I thnk you know that that is an overgeneralization. According to Stossel's show last night, marijuanna use in Amsterdam has gone down among residents, but remains high among tourists from places where they cannot obtain it legally. But I do agree with what I think is your point in that a greater number of people with regular access will likely lead to a greater number of people experimenting and also likely continued greater overall recreational use. This still does not mean that a greater number of people will become addicts. That's why I stress education. Also, I'd like to see some evidence of your assertion that 'decriminalization as a deterrant for use' is a general postion of the left. It's not one that I'm familiar with. Funny that you got defensive when I attributed the lumping of marijuanna with other narcotics by the right with regard to the war on drugs, only to make that statement. I don't refer to Archie Bunker quotes as general positions of the right.

With regard to your running analogy, I guess - like the overall success drug war itself - it's a matter of perception. From my perspective, why bother nearly killing yourself just to not finish last when you could run an event that's more realistically suited to your abilities?
 
81Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 19652912
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 12:57
CriminalDefense.com (free registration required) has just come out with their issue on The War on Drugs. It's very interesting and does have articles for both sides.

pd
 
82Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 13:51
MITH 80
Numbering your points, just brief responses:
1) I don't equate Johnny's brother buying a six-pack. But AS I SAID I am operating under the assumption that getting kids addicted to crack will be dealt with very severely; therefore, the parallel between black-market alcohol and black-market crack is not valid. This extreme severity will make the black market much like it is today.

Again, as I said before, you can assume that there won't be severe penalties for getting kids hooked on crack. But that world has a host of other problems.

2) No. I think you are purposefully misreading me here. Way off base. My argument was that crime in one area does not translate into crime in another.

3) There is no evidence that prevention education does much at all. In fact, under Nixon, the vast majority of federal dollars went into prevention and education. Look how successful that was.

4) The price of the drugs on the street is only partially related to supply; the price of many drugs on the street would still remain high because of inelastic demand and/or increased demand.

This is why people argue for "price controls" and "federal drug stores". But price controls don't work in virtually any other arena, why should they work here? AGAIN, that just sets up another freaking black market very similar to the one that exists today.

5) Sigh. The point is stupid, because it is irrelevant. I don't care what "most" people do; I care what ENOUGH people do. Drugs aren't illegal because MOST people do X. Drugs are illegal because society got annoyed from some subset of drug users engaging in certain behaviors. Any facts about "Most" drug users or whatever are complete and total red-herring arguments. Logic 101.

6) See the history of the drug war; prevention education does very little. Many cities are now dropping DARE programs because they are inneffective.

7) See JKP's link on a related thread. More discipline, more rules, fewer infractions in a school recently. Hmmmm.

You are correct that I shouldn't have said it is a general position of the left. But I would differentiate the reasoning for decriminalization from those of the left and right who agree on this issue. That's what I meant. The right tends to view this as a civil liberties argument (Buckley); the left tends to argue the deterrence (biliruben).
 
83Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 15:50
1) If the obscene profit and glamorization factor is eliminated, kids will not so easily get sucked in to dealing drugs. Currently, people are shooting one another to be 'the man'. Every corner has people standing in line waiting to take over the market. Decriminalizaion will severely decrease the market, as it will effectively eliminate all the adults. A smaller market means a smaller problem. The number of illegal dealers on the streets it would potentiall take to accomodate our adolescent addicts will not be nearly as numerous as the number on the streets today.

That's not to say that I think you're right that a black market catering to children would develop in the first place, though. If you're so certain about this, please explain to me why there is no seedy underworld that provides alcohol and tobacco to minors. There are strict penalties in place for people who provide those substances to kids. I've spoken with store owners who are so scared of being caught selling cigarettes and beer to minors that they card people who are clearly in their 40s. One 7-11 owner I bought coffee from every morning and beer from weekly carded me every week for the suds for years. He knew exactly who I was and still would not have even considered selling me beer if I forgot my driver's liscense.

The laws and penalties are strict enough for these business owners to knowingly comprimise the satisfaction of much of their clientelle to avoid them. I'm sure everyone has had similar experiences. Yet no black market to supply the stuff to children exists to my knowledge, with the exception of a few clerks at specific stores (usually kids themselves) that kids either know personally or know of by word of mouth who will let them buy beer or cigarettes. If the narcotics versions of that is what you mean by a seedy underworld, I hardly think it would compare to the crack markets in the Bronx housing projects, the weed market in East new York, where the territory wars have been as bad as for crack in any other neighborhood or the heroine market on the Lower East Side in Manhattan.

Businesses that continue to sell alcohol and tobacco to minors get shut down after numerous infractions and owners and clerks get heavily fined and sometimes do some time, yet the child market for that stuff has not moved to the street. Why would decriminalized drugs be any different?

2)Wasn't purposly misreading you. You'll have to point out what words of mine you are referring to when you say that crime in one area does not translate into crime in another.

3 & 6)Lets see, underfunded token programs like DARE decidedly show that prevention education is ineffective, but there's no proof that the drug war is a failure in spite of that the numbers of dealers and users does not go down no matter how much money and resources are pumped into it because we must consider the potential users and dealers that may never get involved in drugs in the first place. I see.

You raise that under Nixon, the majority of money went into prevention and education. How much money and resources was that?? That's the kind of bs logic that I regularly enjoy reading you chew up and spit out. Madman, they were still showing Reefer Madness to kids as serious drug prevention education in high school health classes during the Nixon administration. That wasn't prevention education, that was a joke.

4)On this topic, I'm obviously way out of my league. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this and why you feel my assumptions are flawed explained more extensively when you have time.

5)Drugs are illegal because society got annoyed from some subset of drug users engaging in certain behaviors.
If that's your argument then I'd like some examples. Based on that we never should have ended prohibition. Is that your opinion? I don't believe non-trade-related drug use is any more likely to lead to violent behavior than alcohol use. The violent behavior drug users currently engage is robbing people to be able to afford the exuberantly priced substances they are addicted to. Slash the price of the substance and make it more avaiable to the addict and I believe you curb his violece. Nothing you have said gives any reason to think otherwise.

7)I'll check JKP's link later today or when I can.

8)On your perception of the right's and left's differing views among supporters of decriminalization, the reason I personally focus on deterrence instead of civil liberties when arguing for the idea is that the civil liberties argument is more often conceded. On deterrence, I can't speak for Biliruben, but know that I specifically stress deterrence from violent crime through decriminalization, not deterrence from use. Though I do believe decriminalization opens the door for us to pump money into programs that could more successfully lead to deterrence through education. Also, steve houpt's article from The Nation does not support your assessment of the right's focus on the matter.
 
84James K Polk
      ID: 13516513
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 15:57
In case it gets lost: the infamous "JKP's link"
 
85Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 16:05
Thank you kindly.
 
86Bungers
      Leader
      ID: 286222617
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 16:05
MITH 83 One 7-11 owner I bought coffee from every morning and beer from weekly...

Are you sure you don't have that backwards? ;)

But on the subject of carding, our local Walgreens now is carding everyone for tobacco purchases.

He knew exactly who I was and still would not have even considered selling me beer if I forgot my driver's liscense.

Why? The penalties are not for failing to card everyone every time, rather, aren't they for selling to a minor? If he knows you and has checked your ID and age weekly you are not subject to suddenly getting younger. To me that is overkill tantamount to digging up Castro's corpse and shooting him in the head a couple of extra times just for good measure...what?...you say Castro isn't dead...lucky SOB. :)
 
87Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 16:16
Bungers, I totally agree. But this guy was so sick of getting harrassed by the cops that he apparently felt it safest to make no exeptions for anyone. The signs at many convenience store counters in NYS say something to the effect that it is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone who looks under 30 (35?) without ID. I don't know exactly what that means, if a cop seeing me buy a six without showing ID can fine or arrest the clerk without checking to see how old I really am or what.

But I do know the laws are very strict. My cousin (probably about 40 now) bought beer for some teenagers outside a supermarket some 20 years ago and was arrested for it and spent a night in jail. I know that since then the laws regarding this have become much more strict and the penalties much more severe.
 
88Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 16:51
Prez
That's the "Flogged by Bloggers" article. Having trouble finding what madman is refering to.
 
89James K Polk
      ID: 13516513
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 16:58
Dangit! That's the second time in the past couple days I've done that.

Try this one
 
90Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 17:56
MITH 83 Just some brief comments, not complete:

1) Actually, there will be a black market to all children and a black market for adults buying from non-federal drug stores or non-federal suppliers. Actually, we can't even guess at how big these markets will be since you aren't backing a specific proposal. It's easy to complain about specific costs of the current plan, and then suggest suggest some unspecific solution and say "HEY! Check out my plan! Look, no problems!" There's a reason there's a phrase "The Devil is in the Details"
2) Don't understand your response. My words are that crime in one area doesn't affect another. You're talking about something else, I think. I really don't know.
3) & 6) response. This is another classic liberal line. Education has worked in the past because it wasn't done the way we want to do it NOW. As if the way we would do it now is somehow so much more enlightened. And when we do it now (DARE), it didn't work because it was underfunded. Or when we make ads that increase cigarette smoking, that wouldn't happen because we'll be smarter about it.

You can't propose a solution and then say "well, if they do it my way and only my way, it will work". Solutions only work if the actual laws make it work. "Education" regarding drug use has historically been a joke, and I see no reason why that will change in the future. Even if you successfully educate about one drug, people just switch to a new fad where this is more uncertainty regarding how damaging it is.

You call my argument BS. Well, my argument is based on an understanding of history and human nature; we are flawed beings. To assume an ideal education system is itself a joke and pure BS. You asked for examples, I gave them to you.

4) Need more room. This will be quick. But I will say this... many people still intuitively believe prices are based upon costs. This is partially true. This was one of the founding principles of Marxian economics (and Ricardian and some have argued Adam Smith). One of the great contributions of the Austrian school in the late 19th century was the introduction of "marginalism" -- a banner later taken up by mainstream economists like Marshall and others.

Marxian economics relied on a theory of "labor value" -- namely that prices should be related to the cost of inputs, and the only input of relevance to Marx was labor (this is gross oversimplification, so pardon some nuances). The Austrians pointed out that relative scarcity not just production costs, had as much or more to do with the resuling price in markets. There are a zillion ways to illustrate this.

Since this is a sports forum, we could talk baseball cards. A Barry Bonds baseball card costs exactly the same amount as a Donnie Sadler baseball card. Which is more expensive? Has nothing to do with production costs -- has to do with the quantity people demand versus the available supply.

The fact that it costs 2 cents to make a pound of drugs is like a Barry Bonds baseball card -- it says nothing (well, almost nothing) about how much people will still end up paying for those drugs.

Topps purposefully restricts the number of Topps Barry Bonds cards to keep the price high; otherwise they would produce more Bonds and fewer Saddler's. It's not exactly a "free market" (economists' definition, not free as in liberty free), as long as the Topps label has specific value.

Most farmers, however, operate in something closer to a free market. If a single grower attempts to jack price up, others may enter and compete. This has some implications.

First, so many farmers might produce coke and so many drugs might flow into the US that relative scarcity would collapse and the price would drop. We'd be swamped with drugs, literally. No one is really supporting this scenario.

Second, the federal government can prevent the first scenario by trying to create artificial barriers to competition. We do this all the time. It is important at this stage to note that HOW you intervene is going to be critical to whether or not and how far prices for drugs falls. Again, the devil is in the details. My argument is that a fall in price is not a NECESSARY result.

I think the most likely result (again, I can't tell you for sure unless you give me a complete plan) will be some sort of federal price-controls and regulation which will result in cheaper and safer drugs consumed by some, but with an attenuating black market similar to today. The aggregate effect on price is not clear at all; more importantly, the aggregate effect on the profitability of drug lords is likewise not clear.

8) Actually, steve h's link from the National Review in post 78 SUPPORTS my position. Back in 1965 I sought to pay conventional deference to libertarian presumptions against outlawing any activity potentially harmful only to the person who engages in that activity. I cited John Stuart Mill and, while at it, opined that there was no warrant for requiring motorcyclists to wear a helmet. I was seeking, and I thought I had found, a reason to override the presumption against intercession by the state. That's a quote from Buckley; his philosophy changed over time, in no small part because it had to for pragmatic reasons. But this is the position of libertarians (extreme right).
 
91Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 18:02
Crap. 4 wasn't short, but I forgot the biggest argument against a dramatic drop in the profitability of growing drugs -- and that is the fact that if you kill farmers who try to compete against you, they can't enter and compete against you. Simple as that.

Because our growing conditions are particularly great here in this country for a variety of drugs, I think it is very conceivable that drug cartels operating internationally would still be able to restrict the quantity of drugs (and thereby keeping the price relatively high). You would see an evolution of the violence away from government/syndicate and more like mob violence where a syndicate goes around and burns poppy fields of non-cooperating farmers, etc., and jacks up prices on the buyers.
 
92Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 18:03
Oops. Because our growing conditions here AREN'T particularly great for a number of drugs (AND because the feds would likely regulation growth and sale) . . . important typo.
 
93steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 18:38
Cigarettes are $7 a pack in NYC. One New England state is enforcing anti competitive laws (selling something under certain cost - buy one get one free). That state says that is illegal.

If (when) some drugs are ever legalized, every level of government will use it as the biggest cash cow in history. Let's say people pay $50 now for a certain amount of drugs. I would say government mentality will say, they were willing to pay $50 before, put enough taxes on them to get them up to $50 plus.

The taxes will not be 'just' taxes. They will at first be for education programs, clinics, health care. Then they throw in care for the elderly, new roads, fix old roads, one time deal for this, one time deal for that. Need more money, don't raise taxes, tax drugs. At least cigarettes and alcohol would have a new partner.

You will pay what ever the government thinks they can get away with. And unless you are a super majority, you can't do much about it. If (when) drugs are legalized, you think some one is going to run on the 'cheapest drug' platform. I'm going to push for cuts on taxes on drugs and raise state and federal income taxes.

Have not seen anyone down here running to cut taxes on cigarettes or beer. And as far as I know the last time I checked the federal tax from mid 90's added to some 'luxury' items have all been removed (repealed) except beer. Love those specialty taxes that you never even realize you are paying.
 
94Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 18:42
I don't want to go picking apart the Buckley portion of the NR piece, but I believe far more of it addressed crime deterrence than civil liberties issues, in spite of the 3 sentences you pasted.

I get a kick out of conservatives who insist on pointing out that decriminalization is as much a libertarian stance as it is a liberal one. Who cares? I haven't made my way through the entire NR piece, but Buckley seemingly embraces arguments from both points of view on the pro side of that subject.

3 & 6)This is another classic liberal line. Education has worked in the past because it wasn't done the way we want to do it NOW. As if the way we would do it now is somehow so much more enlightened. And when we do it now (DARE), it didn't work because it was underfunded.
How is refocusing on emphasizing and modernizing education any different from increasing funds and resources on the war on drugs during the 90's after a sharp rise in use during the Bush administration? How can you be that myopic?

"Education" regarding drug use has historically been a joke, and I see no reason why that will change in the future.
Drug education in the past was poor so your logic dictates that it isn't possible to improve it? Has it occurred to you that preventation education is a bit more realistic when the scolastic subjectmatter isn't filled with lies?

Even if you successfully educate about one drug, people just switch to a new fad where this is more uncertainty regarding how damaging it is.
Well, if use and sale is decriminalized, then some of the money we save on futile warfare goes into research. If people are using legally, it will be much easier to conduct the controlled studies necessary for education.
 
95Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 18:52
steve, here in NYC 1/8 oz of pot costs $35 to $50 (been a long time now since I've seen $35 tho). I don't know how much tobacco is in a typical pack, but if 1/8 can yield 4 cigarette sized joints (generous) that's 5/8 oz of tobacco per pack. Assuming production of tobacco and cannibus are similarly cost effective, the NYC consumer pays a 250% markup - after the product is taxed to the balls - that can only be attributed to that the stuff is illegal. What does it cost in Europe? Anyone?
 
96Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 19:34
MITH 94 You say that the Buckley piece deals only partially with my assertion. So what? I agree with that. It still supports my position; he was against this mess to begin with, albeit for different reasons that he's against this mess now. I guess I should take your "who cares?" assertion as a concession and move on.

Let me get this straight. You admit education hasn't worked in the past; you admit that education isn't working particularly well now. Yet you still have blind faith that education will work in the future... BECAUSE? Oh yeah, because school books won't be filled with lies.

Uh, whatever. School books WILL be filled with lies. This has always been true in the past, why should it be different in the future? Are you REALLY that much more enlightened than your ancestors? Have you READ a schoolbook lately?

Worse, many will believe they are lies even if they aren't (willful ignorance in order to justify a pleasurable experience). Has it occurred to you that the truthfulness or lack thereof may have been almost totally irrelevant to drug use in the past? Has it occurred to you that we have known the truth about cigarette smoking for 40 years now, we've broadcasted it everywhere, and teen smoking is on the rise? What, exactly, does truth (as if we know it now) have to do with the effectiveness of education on this particular subject?

Your last comment suggests we need controlled research into education. OMG. You need to reaquaint yourself with the state of "education" research in this country. We can't even teach kids math, despite billions and billions of dollars of research. And you think we can research enough to be so convincing that we will talk teenagers into forgoing the temporary pleasures of drug use in favor of longer life. Wow.
 
97James K Polk
      ID: 13516513
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 19:36
I now have this recurring clip running through my mind now of Mr. Mackey mumbling, "Drugs'r bad, mmmkay?"
 
98Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 19:39
MITH 95 Gasoline costs $1.50 per gallon. Bottled water costs $4.25 a gallon. Assuming gas and water are "similarly cost effective", the NYC consumer pays a 250% markup -- after production is taxed to the balls -- that can only be attributed to that the stuff is illegal.

I tried to detail the flaw in your post 95 logic back in my post 90. I clearly failed. Maybe this satire will show the fallacy of the logic.
 
99Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 19:40
Oops. I meant for water to be $3.75 a gallon . . . you get the idea, however.
 
100steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 20:17
MITH - if you are paying $250 for 20 joints, I would venture to say, with local, state and federal taxes and cost of local, state and federal regulations, no matter what it costs to grow, I'd expect to pay $12-15 a joint in most states up to $25-30 in states like New York or California for a legal joint.

Imagine the stamps and warnings for each joint. The cost of that. The license and regulations to operate a farm. License and regulations to operate a plant to package.

And those are not picking on them. Those are probably standard. Sit down and talk with a restaurant owner that sells liquor and beer and wine (all three are different in Louisiana - besides some federal license). See how many different licenses are required. How many different inspections. Regulations. Training they have to pay for each year for each employee that may deliver alcohol to a patron. And that is an industry the government likes.

I can't imagine the government making drugs a 'bargain'. Besides law suits, I heard some bill about money for obesity education and training. Already starting.
 
101Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 21:44
re marijuana, decriminalization should include the right to grow your own. But that's off topic and this is pointless since I don't think anyone here is foolish enough to defend that growing, selling and using marijuana is illegal.

madman 96

You admit education hasn't worked in the past; you admit that education isn't working particularly well now. Yet you still have blind faith that education will work in the future...

...And you think we can research enough to be so convincing that we will talk teenagers into forgoing the temporary pleasures of drug use in favor of longer life.


No. I said in my post 80 that there is no way to know for sure that refocusing on education will decrease the total number of users. IMO, decriminalization must concede that the overall number of experimental and recreational users will more likely rise than not. At least at first. Biliruben is more optimistic than me in that regard IMO, big deal. Regulate it just like we do alcohol.

I have no idea why you drug warlords can't get it through your heads that the recreational drug users wouldn't be hurting anybody at all if it wasn't for your insistance on continuing your failed war. It's more pathetic than Kevin Costner at the end of Tin Cup.

So, I agree it's likely counter productive to make decreased drug use your desired result if your MOA is to decriminalize. Though I still wouldn't rule out the possibility, and in fact at this point I'd say it stands a better chance of happening than if we continue the war. IMO, the goal should be to try to create an environment where preventing drug related violence and drug addiction has the best chance to work without comprimising too many civil liberties.

Focus research and education on treatment and prevention of addiction, not prevention of total use. There is no evidence to show that the war has done anything to curb use, much less addiction. Every source for statistics I've found shows fluxuous trends over the last 25 years in both. To play it "safe" and blindly assume that we would have seen increased addiction without the drug war suggests an absurd notion of safety when you think about the conditions of our inner-cities and other poor communities.

It is my opinion that much of the right opposes decriminalization in spite of the certain great reduction and possible elimination of drug-related violence because it allows addiction to more likely to hit his white upper-middle class neighborhood. The war conveniently keeps all of the violence and most of the addiction (but not most of the use) in the ghetto, where he can blissfully choose not to acknowledge it.
 
102Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 22:45
I don't think anyone here is foolish enough to defend that growing, selling and using marijuana is illegal. - MITH

If I am not mistaken they are still finding people with unusual heat signatures emitted from their houses, breaking down the doors and arresting the occupants when they find MJ under grow lights. Perhaps you meant noone here is foolish enuff to defend the continued illegal status. Then again maybe you drugees know know about laxer law enforcement than I had been led to believe existed.
 
103Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 23:53
Ah, there we have it. Now the truth is out. The real argument against decriminalization -- the right supports the drug war because they are racist. Protect your suburban white-middle class ass in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary. More of the same
no respect politics. If you believe the other side is evil or immoral, it makes it a lot easier to close your mind to new ideas and new approaches. Since you are clearly not responding or acknowledging my actual posts (like post 72 in which I suggested we should start increasing the stakes for certain white suburbanites as an alternative to causing further havoc in the inner cities) I think this discussion is effectively ended. When you come up with a specific proposal with specific issues that can be rationally discussed, let me know. But I'm not going to continue to debate an issue where one side fundamentally thinks I'm a racist, refuses to propose concrete and specific alternatives that can be thoughtfully examined, and refuses to actually read what I post.
 
104steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Thu, Aug 01, 2002, 00:05
MITH - It is my opinion that much of the right opposes decriminalization in spite of the certain great reduction and possible elimination of drug-related violence because it allows addiction to more likely to hit his white upper-middle class neighborhood. The war conveniently keeps all of the violence and most of the addiction (but not most of the use) in the ghetto, where he can blissfully choose not to acknowledge it.

I hope you read that somewhere and just thought it would be 'fun' to post. Because in my opinion, it took a warped left wing mind to even come up with an idea like that.
 
105steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Thu, Aug 01, 2002, 00:14
Next thing you hear, the right wing was behind the eco groups against planned burns in the west so wild fires would start and take out some of the weed crop.

You know, that might have been the plan. Just let California and Oregon (is Washington burning too?) off the map. Colorado and Arizona were just colateral damage in the plan.

Have to think 'out of the box' (and I don't mean like Sen Boxer) sometimes to keep up with what might be going on. :):):)
 
106Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Thu, Aug 01, 2002, 10:29
Baldwin
Your second guess is right. I intended that I don't believe anyone here is foolish enough to defend the continued illegal status. Sorry about the mix up.

Madman
If you believe the other side is evil or immoral, it makes it a lot easier to close your mind to new ideas and new approaches. Since you are clearly not responding or acknowledging my actual posts (like post 72 in which I suggested we should start increasing the stakes for certain white suburbanites as an alternative to causing further havoc in the inner cities) I think this discussion is effectively ended.

Don't make me laugh. I love hearing conservatives tell me about my closed mind to new ideas and approaches. Decriminalization is a new approach, or at least one that has yet to be tried.

My post 80 - ...considering the very questionable effects on current potential use and clearly limited overall success of the war, I don't feel we stand to lose much by changing gears and trying something different.


Get off your high horse. I never called you a racist and what I may attribute to "much of the right" is not necessarily intended to imply to you or to any majority. I never called 'the other side' racist. If I'd meant that as general position of the right then that's what I would have said - or I would have corrected myself to make that clear. Don't get me wrong, IMO "much of right" are racists, though I would not be so bold as to provide a ratio. Do you claim to have never noticed? I absolutely love how, in the same stroke as you knowingly twist my words to wrongfully accuse me of calling you a racist you whine about me not applying a sentence you wrote 30 posts ago to the paragraph you're complaining about - even though I never intended to inclde you in my assessment. What a joke!

But if you insist on bitching and nitpicking, why don't you direct some of that at yourself:

MITH 80
Show me proof that spending that money on 'prevention education' rather than "war" won't stop more potential drug use and I'll concede that point. I think there is absolutely no way to know for sure without trying


Madman 94
And you think we can research enough to be so convincing that we will talk teenagers into forgoing the temporary pleasures of drug use in favor of longer life. Wow.


So I guess I should take your refusal to respond to or acknowledge my actual posts as your ending the discussion with that paragraph? Funny, you've been awful chatty (in a wholly unfoundedly chastizing and sarcastic sort of way) since deciding to pick up and go home.

steve
I hope you read that somewhere and just thought it would be 'fun' to post. Because in my opinion, it took a warped left wing mind to even come up with an idea like that.

...Next thing you hear, the right wing was behind blah blah blah...


If you need to know where I heard it, the notion originated from my neighbors in my hometown on Long Island during a block party one year. White middle class suburbanites. I've heard similar talk from similar groups of people over the years. If I search hard enough, I bet I could find some rightist propaganda that expresses similar priorities.

Are you guys saying that there are no racists among the political right? Are you saying that it could never have occurred to white suburbanites who are racists that the current drug war works for them in precisely the way I detailed in my last paragraph of 101? Do I classify this as obscene vanity or blissful ignorance on your part? One thing that is a general position of the right that clearly contributes to your idiocy here is the imbicilic insistance that it is better to pretend that there is no racism rather than to acknowledge it and try to deal with it.
 
107Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Thu, Aug 01, 2002, 11:02
I hate to dumb down my points regarding racism and politics here, but reading through madman and steve's posts again leads me to believe I have to, or continue to get flamed for ideas I never implied.

So to be clear, yes, many among the left are racists too. In fact off the cuff I will go so far as to say that many leftists policies would tend to support racists among the left as much as some rightist policies support David Duke types. Who knows, maybe more. Extreme misguided political correctedness and many examples of affirmative action come to mind. I've often heard rightist pundits like Ann Coulter actually blame leftist racism for misuse and (I think) even implementation of these policies, but heaven forbid a liberal might suggest that conservative racists are happy to live with the flaws of the drug war because it happens to support their wicked ideology and agenda.
 
108Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Thu, Aug 01, 2002, 13:25
Decriminalization as a broad idea is an extremely OLD policy. The natural condition of this country was freedom before big government stepped in during this century. Marijuana, for example, was legal in this country for more than 150 years; it's only been illegal for 65.

For better or worse, it was because of the rampant perception of heroine and coke addiction among MIDDLE CLASS WHITES that started the whole freaking drug war in the early 1900's. Housewives getting addicted to pain relievers filled with coke, etc., etc. (Sounds like Brett Favre, no? Except the housewife bit :) )
-------------------------
Regarding the remainder of your racist comments, I think your points speak for themselves. I will say that if you didn't mean your comments to be directed at me or steve h, then I don't understand exactly why they were brought up. They don't address the intellectual merits of my counterpoints at all.
-------------------------
Lastly, regarding my alleged "not addressing your post" I think my posts directly address your posts (BTW, you cited my post incorrectly. You made post 80, not me). You take that single line out, but choose to not report the context. Figures. You asked to see evidence that education wouldn't help. I gave you at least two historical examples. You rejected those examples. You then said that preventative education would be better because textbooks wouldn't be filled with lies and that we could spend more on research. This was an implicit assertion that RESEARCH WAS GOOD. Your last line of post 94 suggested that this money for research was "necessary".

So, you are stuck with two problems that I detailed in my posts. First, you are assuming the best contrary to historical evidence. Secondly, you are assuming that education research will be somehow efficacious in the field of drug use when it has failed in virtually every other field for decades.

Those are direct responses to your points, your parsing of a single line notwithstanding.
 
111Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Thu, Aug 01, 2002, 15:28
madman 108
Decriminalization as a broad idea is an extremely OLD policy. The natural condition of this country was freedom before big government stepped in during this century. Marijuana, for example, was legal in this country for more than 150 years; it's only been illegal for 65.

True. I should have said; "Decriminalization is a new approach, or at least one that has yet to be tried in the modern era."

I will say that if you didn't mean your comments to be directed at me or steve h, then I don't understand exactly why they were brought up. They don't address the intellectual merits of my counterpoints at all.

In retrospect I agree it was a somewhat inapropriate tangent, but still am impressed by your's and steve's knee-jerk reactions. Especially steve's who took me to mean that racism is the motive behind the drug war. I don't see how he could have inferred that.

(BTW, you cited my post incorrectly. You made post 80, not me).

Look again. I think you mean to say that 94 was my post, not yours. You know I was copying from your 96.

Lastly, regarding my alleged "not addressing your post" I think my posts directly address your posts ...You take that single line out, but choose to not report the context. Figures.

Okay, here's the whole paragraph from your 96:
"Your last comment suggests we need controlled research into education. [It does? I'm calling for giving it a try. If think that's the same as expressing a need for it then there's no wondering why you're always so bent out of shape all the time]
OMG. [That's exactly the same thing I'm thinking!]
You need to reaquaint yourself with the state of "education" research in this country. We can't even teach kids math, despite billions and billions of dollars of research. And you think we can research enough to be so convincing that we will talk teenagers into forgoing the temporary pleasures of drug use in favor of longer life. [I don't know madman, still seems to blatently ignore that I said "I think there is absolutely no way to know for sure without trying", even after reading the whole stupid thing]
Wow. [Again, same thing I was thinking. I guess you owe me a beer. Let's make it a few bong hits instead, whaddayasay?]

You then said that preventative education would be better because textbooks wouldn't be filled with lies and that we could spend more on research. This was an implicit assertion that RESEARCH WAS GOOD.

No, I said education is more realistic when texts aren't filled with lies. Which implies that I want to give education an opprutunity to be good. Are you doing this stuff on purpose or are you not feeding your sugar addiction again?

So, you are stuck with two problems that I detailed in my posts. First, you are assuming the best contrary to historical evidence. Secondly, you are assuming that education research will be somehow efficacious in the field of drug use when it has failed in virtually every other field for decades.

Ok, back to this. Look, I've already conceded that education is no surefire lock to better prevent addiction. But you are either missing or ignoring what I've already said on that - that in my opinion the focus should be on violence, not addiction. As I said in post 80, in my opinion addiction is more easily treatable than murder, and most people stand a greater chance of surviving experimentation with narcotics than they do fast-approaching bullets. Continued addiction - even increased addiction levels (to some extent) would be a welcome tradeoff from most of the violence that currently results from your stupid war.

Education is a secondary issue here, really a suggestion on my part for what could be done with money saved from ending the war. Three reasons I express some optimism that research and education could stand a better chance following decriminalization than it has in the past - in spite of historical evidence to the contrary:
1)Choosing a less ambitious objective, namely curbing addiction rather than overall use, can only improve the chances for success.

2)We will have an opprutunity to devote more funds to the effort than ever has been considered before. How much money was put into curbing drug use during the Nixon era? Whatever it was, you say most of it went to prevention education, which did not achieve the desired results. How much money went into drug prevention during the Clinton era? A boatload more than in Nixon's time, only most of that money went into waging war. I'd like to see education be given something much closer to the same opprutunity to succeed that the drug war has been given - which many among us view as a total failure, noting your expressed points regarding potential use and addiction it may have eliminated over the years. I could just as easily make the same guess regarding education and you have no evidence to refute it.

3)With use being decriminalized it is my hope that it will be viewed and studied more practically, like alcohol and tobacco. To your knowledge, are high school health class students lied to about the effects and severity of addictive properties of tose substances? Not as far as I know. I believe that in the past Americans were so fearful of teens experimenting with drugs that they (the government, I think) invented lies about their effects and severity of addictive properties. Everyone who had ever been exposed to MJ or anyone on MJ knew that Reefer Madness was all lies, what results could they have expected? To my understanding much of the subjectmatter was no better. But you say it's pointless to try to refocus on education now that we have improved it? My high school health class, while certainly not what I would say is ideal, was approached much more realistically.

Moreover (still on point #3), I think it also stands to reason that drug users won't be so afraid to tell their doctors about their use and doctors will be able gather much more information on the effects of various levels of use of all drugs, long and short term. That better supplies the medical journals with accurate information. Further, how much research on drug users and drug abusers is conducted today? Whatever it is, improving on it certainly can't hurt. It's time to try looking at it as a medical (scientific) problem instead of a criminal one.

But I stress again, the main priority should be greatly decreased drug related violence, a goal that I am convinced ending the drug war will achieve with flying colors.
 
112Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Thu, Aug 01, 2002, 16:28
Some more thoughts:

After reading through again, I see what you mean by my last comment in 94 suggesting we need controlled research into education.

Here's the sentence:
If people are using legally, it will be much easier to conduct the controlled studies necessary for education.

Perhaps I should have said, "...much easier to conduct the controlled studies necessary for improved education"

Better?

Also, a musing I intended to include in post 101, but edited out and had forgotten about since. Probably should have been included in my 3rd reason that decriminalization today might help give drug education and research improved effictiveness:

If decriminalizing drug use is viewed more practically, I'd imagine the FDA would more likely consider exploring the possible developments of new, less addictive intoxicants. Perhaps even intoxicants with safe effects that can be effectively be prematurely "turned off", so to speak, perhaps with another substance. Even if such ideas are initially shunned, perhaps at least such research could conceivably follow sometime later.
 
113Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Thu, Aug 01, 2002, 17:48
MITH 111 and 112.
1) Yes, I screwed up with 80/92/94. I do make mistakes. Just not on policy issues (LOL). It wasn't a big deal, pointed it out because some of these issues DID refer back to 80 and my responses to 80, versus the 92/94 discussion that you quoted . . . Apparently not important.

2) I DO need more sugar. Just had a Pepsi.

3) Education. First a general comment. I absolutely hate the idea of more federal involvement in education -- ESPECIALLY research. The current bi-partisan Bush clap-trap that proposed to reduce class-time for all children by a few percent, increase tax payments from parents to fat-cat researchers in ivory towers, is such a tremendous mess and will cause incalculable damage to our school systems, IMO.

Yes, the bill itself isn't this bad, but its the first time everyone has conceded that PhD researchers need to be involved; that we should collect multiple choice answers to exams, ship them off to professional statisticians, and use THAT to determine whether or not students are learning.

It is the total abandonment of my philosophy that education is the creation of an environment of trust and inquisitiveness between someone with knowledge (teacher, hopefully) and a student. Education is one-on-one. The variety and difference among people are too great for any -- I repeat ANY -- statistical research into education to persuade me one iota vis-a-vis the relative merits of one piece of curriculae versus another.

This is not directly what you have proposed, but because of the wealth of experiential failures, IMO, we should not simply hope for research in education to do accomplish some objective. You must have an iron-clad, concrete argument for why education research is going to help. I have never heard such an argument, and can only hope for the day when the billions of dollars currently spent on education research grants totally dry up and instead get sent directly to the teachers in the classrooms where they then have the discretion to purchase things that they think will help THEIR students given the teacher's own skill set and interests.

4) With that as background, hopefully you now see why I yawn when you present your reasons for "it's always failed, but this time it will be better". We needed to spend more, students will believe and listen to us this time, etc., etc. These arguments are the same arguments made in zillions of research proposals. It's the definition of insanity to put much weight in those things.

Your first idea might have some possibilities. It's unique to drug education -- change what you teach, in essence. Teach people how to use casually but not get addicted. I have moral qualms with this, however. I do not want government paid role models helping students get high without the attenuating addiction costs.

Unlike you, I see great possible costs in that approach. Namely -- what if it doesn't work? Reduce social stigma against an activity, and if you can't control what you've unleashed . . . what THEN? What if the rate of addiction can't be controlled by teachers?

5) Lastly, why put so much emphasis on education, anyway? Or school systems are burdened with all sorts of problems at the moment. They have too much to teach as it is. Even if your research worked, and even if students were able to learn how to get high without getting addicted, how much time away from more valuable subjects is this going to take? We're already 30%? behind other countries in math. Your proposal makes this gap even harder to overcome. And that's a best case scenario where students can get their studying done, go get high, and not get addicted.

6) Your last FDA comment reinforces one of my main arguments against all the generalizations that you've offered in this thread. You can't just talk about decriminalization and then talk about all the benefits to it.

You have to get specific. Much of what I have said is simply pointing out that your conclusions are not necessary given your beginning point. For example, your statement suggests that you will decriminalize drugs and then make the FDA a more pro-active organization in terms of soliciting experimental data or research? Right now, it just examines the discoveries of others.

Regardless, it would be much better for all of us concerned if you sat down and sketched out a complete and comprehensive decriminalization policy.

Of course, no one has actually done this. Why? Because it inevitably gets ugly, just like the current policies. Until you do this, you are actually just sitting on the side-lines, throwing pot-shots, talking about an idealistic dream-world that isn't necessarily realistic.

Personally, I am unable to come up with a substantially better alternative for various hard drugs, like meth, and even for many popular narcotics like coke or crack. I have suggested here and elsewhere alternative methods of criminal prosecution when applicable that I thought would help alleviate some of the racial biases in the system, but the overall law-enforcement effort is something that appears to be a necessary social evil.

P.S. Meth doesn't suffer from your inner city problem, so maybe you don't see a need to decriminalize meth... this repeats the problem that I have since you haven't given any specifics. You give a blanket problem -- violence, primarily inner city violence -- and a blanket solution -- decriminalize drugs -- and conveniently side-step the issue of "how". We'll simply improve our educational system and everything will be ok. Liberals are idealists, aren't they? Explains why they always gripe about the status quo. Unfortunately, they forget that the status quo is frequently ugly not because people aren't striving for the ideal, but because the ideal cannot be met.
 
114steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Fri, Aug 02, 2002, 00:59
MITH - suburbs/racism - dropped. Read thru the follow up posts. I agree there are racists in the right and the left. Will probably never eliminate it. Can only try. I still see/hear it from people down here. And they were not born that way. They have to be taught at home. It's passed on and will take a long time to completely break. But I don't think either side has a subversive plan to keep drug wars out of the suburbs. I do believe both sides do things that end up having MANY unintended consequences. That could be one.

Education. A little OT. I have skipped back and forth through the posts on this (getting lost).

I had to sit through drug and alcohol lectures (education) all my life in the Navy. Some very good information. Did it make a difference? Didn't take drugs. Because of education. Doubt it. Fear of being put out. Yes. Drink. Like a fish sometimes. But usually controlled because of fear. Drinking in the Navy was accepted early but then became more PC not to play hard and party hard. So you had to watch yourself. Did I know abuse of alcohol was bad for me? Yes. Why do it sometimes? Don't know. Everytime the Navy came up with a new training plan, everyone had to sit through it. Got in a little trouble, had to sit through a plan that was a week long. Then I failed one of those questionaires and interviews with a counselor that asked you how much you drink and why. He recommended a three week vacation. Got plenty of education. Quit. Kind of for a while. Then I retired. Then I quit completely. Why? Didn't get in any trouble. No program (but I had learned all about those programs for years - so almost knew them). Just decided I had had enough. Was no 'fun' anymore. That was over five years ago. What makes people tick? Got me.

I think all you can do in education is give the facts. Not sure it does anything other than that. Don't know if the education has any effect on use. Maybe it eventually does. Might not have quit if I had not had those 15 years of education (was very little education/training in the 70's).

I don't think any study will ever come up with an education plan that covers everybody (other than to give the facts). And I think we already have enough data for that. The best way may be to keep it simple. Just the facts. After that, ............ it's a personal decision.
 
115James K Polk
      ID: 23754811
      Mon, Aug 12, 2002, 17:01
Mmmmmm, magic millipedes ...
 
116Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Mon, Aug 12, 2002, 20:33
Good God, hide that link from SZ. I can picture where this could lead. 8]
 
117Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 12:40
Stupid stories from the front lines of the War on Some Drugs
 
118Stuck in the Sixties
      Leader
      ID: 297121321
      Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 22:03
I believe that no drugs should be outlawed. If folks who use drugs commit crimes, they should be punished by a legal system that rests on the premise that people are free to do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt someone else.

I actually took the time to read through the majority of this thread and I find people arguing about everything except what's important --- that the government should not have the power to regulate our existence and should certainly never have the ability to determine what we buy or do not buy.
 
119Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 23:44
S.I.60's -- I assume you are talking about 18 year olds and up that are free?

Regarding the regulation, you are suggesting that there be no intervention in the drug market after legalization? I.e., no regulation? No monitoring of addicts?

What if a ton of people become addicts and they clutter our streets and make every-day life difficult? Do we as a society have the obligation to pay for their rehab? Especially since we don't have the right to try to prevent the need for intervention prior to this?

I appreciate your libertarian philosophy. I really do. I just don't think that it is practical for certain drugs or activities.

Also, you should try to answer things like the use of antibiotics. Surely we have the right to regulate access to those types of drugs? Isn't the argument very similar for meth?
 
120Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 02:19
A legal system that rests on...people are free to do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt someone else.

I guess we shouldn't arrest all those drunk drivers unless they actually strike another vehicle huh?

people arguing about everything except what's important

We've had lots of interesting drug threads that have looked at every angle. Look over the Drug clinic approach thread, my personal favorite.

 
121Bungers
      Leader
      ID: 286222617
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 09:17
Madman 119 What if a ton of people become addicts and they clutter our streets and make every-day life difficult?

You mean like it is now? ;)
 
122Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 19652912
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 09:22
I think alcohol and how we treat it is the perfect counterpoint to anti-legalization arguments.

pd
 
123Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 10:34
Bungers 121 -- Like it is now? No, like it would be if we drop rehab requirements from criminal convicts (since there wouldn't be criminal convicts, and since there would be no regulation, there cannot be any mandatory rehab), reduced social stigma against the drugs, and refused to engage in any regulated treatment or distribution. My comment was with respect to the "no regulation" argument.

PD -- I see you are back to your analogy high horse we discussed earlier. If those stats don't convince you, I'm not sure what would or can. Alcohol consumption during prohibition dropped from roughly 2.5 gallons per year to a max of 1.2 gallons per year. After prohibition, consumption gradually rose again to it's peak in 1980, slighly higher than where it had been around the turn of the century. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say that "alcohol is the perfect counter-argument".

Regardless of the stats which are sheer guesswork of people with agendas, I really fail to see what alcohol as a general argument has to do with PCP, meth, anabolic steroids, antibiotics, etc., etc.

Each of those drugs are illegal for somewhat different reasons. Once a user is hooked on PCP, from what I understand, violent behavior and/or death is guaranteed. The best hope for society is that they are physically restrained and contained while de-toxing. The fact that you continue to hold onto the alcohol analogy when discussing a drug like PCP or brain-damaging meth shows that you are either not reading my posts or that I might as well not be writing them.
 
124Bungers
      Leader
      ID: 286222617
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 10:43
Madman, missed the ;) in my post, eh?

But if you want to be serious, then OK, "a ton" of people would be about 10 people these days with American's weight control issues taken into account (see the "Science of diet" thread), hardly enough to "clutter" the streets.

Gosh darn it, I try to make a crowded streets/fat Americans joke and look what I get. :)
 
125Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 11:02
Bungers, I have trouble with the :)'s. I see them, but I for whatever reason, can't get them through my thick skull. I keep seeing sarcasm in them. :)

A ton of Americans is a lot fewer than a ton of Europeans, that's for sure. Drug addicts tend to lose weight, however, so it would probably more than 10 of them...
 
126Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 11:09
One additional point that really needs to be made ... seriously ...

I think it is shocking and disgusting that when discussing Prohibition's effectiveness that they focus on usage. Similarly, the focus on this drug war is on usage.

These are wrong and inappropriate figures. We should focus and track destructive behaviors as a result of usage, since it is that secondary effect that is truly desired, not the primary effect of denying usage.

And it is on that scale we should be judged. Overall, we have made tremendous improvements on that score since the turn of the 19th century when drugs were freely available and freely legal. That isn't to say that our current drug war is responsible, and it isn't to say that there wouldn't be more effective ways of fighting addiction. But it is to say that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
127Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 19652912
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 11:18
Analogy high horse? What post was that, exactly? And it's almost funny that you say you have no idea what I'm talking about in #122, yet that fails to stop you from framing a counterargument. Haha!

First, I think it would be awfully difficult to obtain very accurate per capita consumption levels for alcohol during Prohibition. Nonetheless, by arguing that all drugs which "are illegal for somewhat different reasons" should continue to be so because of the dangers of meth and PCP not only misses the argument regardling legalization entirely, but lacks an internal logic that we normally see in your posts. Does marijuana rise to the same level as crack? What about Vicodan, morphine, Dianabol, and other CII drugs?

Your argument that PCP and other drugs of that type are addictive and dangerous misses the fact that some drugs (marijuana among them) might have medicinal benefits which are being unexamined. While I would not agree with MITH that the FDA needs to activate marijuana research, the fact that it now stands in the way of private research to examine the possibility of future drug uses seems at odds with your normal market-based outlook.

And, if some drugs are really at the same danger threshold as alcohol (once freed from the artificial constraints of illegality) then we should certainly open access to them.

pd
 
128Bungers
      Leader
      ID: 286222617
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 11:20
Drug addicts tend to lose weight, however, so it would probably more than 10 of them...

OK, so you've solved the problem from the "Science of diet" thread inadvertently...you are a genius! Too bad it counters your stand on drug use in general. You win some, you lose some. ;)
 
129yankeeh8tr
      ID: 294351716
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 11:41
And it's really only the "hard core" addicts that lose weight. Recreational pot smokers eat too many Ruffles and Krispy Kremes to lose weight as a result of their habit.
 
130Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 11:41
PD 127 -- Nonetheless, by arguing that all drugs which "are illegal for somewhat different reasons" should continue to be so because of the dangers of meth and PCP not only misses the argument regardling legalization entirely, but lacks an internal logic that we normally see in your posts.

Uh, show me when I argued this. I never did.

Regarding my statement that I didn't know what you meant, it was after I eviscerated any possible rational reason for you to hold that such an analogy exists. It was an expression that I thought there was no tenable ground left upon which a rational person could hold that belief, not an expression of my true misunderstanding.

Regarding the FDA, they don't "activate" any medical research, so I agree with you on this one -- no reason to treat marijuana as special. The FDA isn't the one standing in the way of research on that dimension. As I understand it, it's the NIDA and HHS that don't even let it get that far. Given Congressional legislation on the status of marijuana as an illegal substance, I don't see how the FDA has much say in the manner at all.

Obviously advocating regulation and intervention in markets is "at odds" with my market-based outlook. I haven't ever advocated that with respect to marijuana, however, so your entire argument on that dimension is a red herring.

I have argued that different drugs need to be treated differently. I have argued that the rhetoric that claims that the drug war is unwinnable ignores the patently obvious fact that there ARE substances out there for which we must continue to fight the unwinnable war. For this reason, an argument that the "drug war" as broadly stated is unwinnable means nothing intellectually.

My argument has been -- clearly and forcefully stated, I believe -- that you must examine drug enforcement tactics on a case by case basis. The continual misunderstanding of my position on this issue shows the degree to which people bring their preconceived biases to this discussion. I may vote Democrat, but I'm no meth-head drug legalization freak.

And when people make arguments that fail to make these critical distinctions between drugs like marijuana and meth, then they are reinforcing societal stereotypes and ignorance. I choose not to be in that group.
 
131Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 19652912
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 11:43
In these troubled times, can't you just jump on the bandwagon, Madman?



:)
 
132Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 11:52
I see the smiley face! I really do!

But that's why I can't get on the "bandwagon". I'll support rational decriminalization of all substances without known deleterious side-effects. But I support that as a blanket policy; I'm not pro-marijuana in any sense. My attitude applies to 400 mg ibuprofen tablets in the exact same fashion. I think we should revisit the entire spectrum of drug laws. I am not comfortable with just making a single change for marijuana.
 
133Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 19652912
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 12:04
I agree with re-visiting the entire spectrum, but there seems to be little reason to dig in ones heels on one drug simply because there's work to do re-examining many others. There's certainly something to be said for hammering out a cohesive policy on this issue (which is what I think you are saying on this one) but there's also the claim that sometimes you need to fix the obvious parts of the problem first to get the ball rolling.

I have argued that the rhetoric that claims that the drug war is unwinnable ignores the patently obvious fact that there ARE substances out there for which we must continue to fight the unwinnable war. Yup, agreed, too. So stop calling it the "unwinnable war" since that is the part of the "war" we can (and should, and will) win. Your concentration on the enforcement side only reinforces the argument that you are lumping the drugs together, since it implies that each of the drugs needs a special enforcement technique or policy. Most drugs which would be legalized to sime degree would be covered under existing laws for other substances.

The FDA and NIH are both a part of the HHS. A distinction between the two regarding drug policy which reflects the official Congressional status of the drug might be placing blame in the wrong lap, at least for this drug.

pd
 
134Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 12:47
One of my big complaints about the FDA is that they have assumed so much power, and are perceived to be so successful that people no longer see the need to keep them where they are supposed to be. They aren't supposed to initiate any sort of research; that's the role of the NIH. To place blame on the FDA for that is putting it in the wrong lap; noting that distinction is not. For this or for any drug.
-------------------
We're talking pragmatic effects here, but I think the approach to take is not to just legalize marijuana per se. The problem with that is the activist pro-marijuana contingencies. Such a move would be seen (partly correctly) as the government telling kids that it's OK to smoke marijuana.

Furthermore, on an even more pragmatic scale, take away the legalize marijuana lobby, and the movement for re-evaluating drug policy in a broader sense loses at least part of one of its strongest advocates.

For those reasons, I think the best idea is to revamp the entire issue. Have a "blue ribbon commission" talk about all sorts of drugs -- marijuana, meth, anti-biotics, steroids, perscription drugs, etc. -- and have it come up with a plan.

By doing it that way, you help reduce the likely increase in marijuana usage among young people, fix a broader set of problems, and make the whole argument ironically more palatable to those strong anti-drug advocates.
------------------------------
I would like to stop calling it the unwinnable war. For political reasons, you are probably correct.

My point, however, was that by the same measures people claim we are losing this war, they will always be able to claim we are losing any war against any drug. Our current drug war and any future drug war is only about containment, not eradication. The sooner we come to grips with that, the sooner we can talk more cogently about what is a good versus bad policy.
------------------------
This time I really don't understand what you are saying at all: Your concentration on the enforcement side (I love it when you cite me without giving specific post #'s or quotes.) only reinforces the argument that you are lumping the drugs together, since it implies that each of the drugs needs a special enforcement technique or policy. I'm lumping drugs together because each drug needs a special technique? You've totally lost me. I also didn't understand your next sentence -- legalization of drugs doesn't mean legalization . . .???
 
135Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 13:53
The problem is that when you get right down to it the only purpose of the drug war is to artificially inflate the price of drugs and keep down the competition. No matter whether there is a drug so bad it must never never be tolerable, part of the power structure will see to it that that war is never never won because they are profiting from it.
 
136Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 15:15
madman 114
Regardless, it would be much better for all of us concerned if you sat down and sketched out a complete and comprehensive decriminalization policy.

After thinking about this for almost 2 weeks now, the best I can come up with is changing Federal policy to leaving it up to the states to decide, as was done when prohibition was ended. As you have pointed out numerous times, what may be appropriate in one part of the country could cause considerable harm elsewhere, further, what the citizens of one region may desire may be the polar opposite of the consensus of voters from another region.

The first question that comes to mind is the how nature of the market should be addressed. As has been indicated elsewhere, mj has no place being classified as a dangerous drug and generally should not be treated as such. The stuff can grow almost anywhere in the continental US and I believe citizens should reserve the right to grow it, sell it, buy it, give it as a gift, smoke it, eat it, and make novelty items out of it with restrictions similar to alcohol set in place to regulate it. I genuinely feel it is a less harmful substance than tobacco or alcohol, but I do not agree with the libertarian pov regarding mj.

The question of more dangerous substances is a more difficult one. Perhaps merchants could sell cocaine, heroine and hallucinogen products under strict restrictions, like those that are imposed not only for alcohol, but also like restrictions set in place for pornography, not within certain proximity to schools, churches, residences, etc. I believe that addictive substances should be made accessible to the addicted, and government addiction support programs could be funded at least in part by taxes imposed on drug purchases from merchants. The addicts should not be allowed to leave with any quantity of drugs - they would have to get high there. I think the casual or recreational users would be deterred from acquiring cheap drugs from supply facilities by the desperate conditions of the addicts who are there for lack of any other choice.

I believe my earlier posts in this thread outline almost as extensively as I can the benefits that I believe places that opt for decriminalization would enjoy. So let's look at what might happen to places where the current drug laws might be able to remain intact. One clear drawback from this approach is that a black market for narcotics will surely continue to exist in places where they remain illegal. But I think you'll concede that it will go a long way toward curtailing violence in those areas. Bootleggers continue to exist in alcohol-dry southern counties, but I've never heard of anyone getting shot over distilling, transporting, selling or buying beer or hard alcohol. It probably happens rarely, if at all.

Clearly, there will not be enough states or counties decriminalizing addictive narcotics to show the same success in eliminating violence as the alcohol model, since people who live in dry areas usually need only travel an hour at most to purchase alcohol legally. It stands to reason that most of America would remain out of close driving distance to legally purchase drugs, but since anyone with a car and the time and gas money to do so could make a more lengthy road trip to legally purchase, the nature of the market surely would change. First, fewer people would rely on the black market. I speculate that drugs would be smuggled from parts of the US where they can be legally purchased into areas where their sale and/or use remains illegal, but the elimination of our black markets being directly supplied from foreign cartels, and thus the likely near-elimination of smuggling drugs into the country would sure be a great step in the right direction. It also stands to reason that some addicts may pick up and move out of regions that choose to keep drug laws intact.

In any case, I don't see how this could possibly make the illegal drug trade in these areas (likely most of the country) any more dangerous, violent or prominent than it already is. My guess it would slip to a level closer to that of the fireworks markets in places like NYS. I've known many people that travel to North Carolina(?) every year to purchase fireworks legally and smuggle them back into NY for use at their Independence Day parties. Others go the riskier route and try to purchase them from local "bootleggers", but know that they are spending more than they might spend on their road trip (including gas) if they plan on buying enough.

Another advantage to such a plan would be a true control groups in societal other forms of research. After some time, we could see what effectively works and what doesn't. We could measure crime levels in areas of varying decriminalization. We could more accurately measure addiction levels in places that allow for some drug use. We could more accurately measure addictive properties and other effects of various substances. At the risk of again sounding like I'm stressing this issue, true basis for comparison is the only way to further educate us on the individual and societal effects of drug use, decriminalization and other related matters.

Perm Dude 127
While I would not agree with MITH that the FDA needs to activate marijuana research...

I never said the FDA needs to activate marijuana research (Or in light of Madman's pointing out that it would not be the FDA's place to do so, any other agency for that matter). I see the greatest problem with illegal drugs in America being the violence associated with buying and selling them. Therefore I believe the primary focus should be ridding us of as much drug related violence as possible. I believe that since we have made absolutely no measurable progress whatsoever in curtailing addiction, and that while addiction levels simply rise with the population, drug related violence spins further and further out of control as we jam pack our prisons beyond capacity, it is time to try something new. With all due respect to Madman, there is no reason to believe him when he says the drug war has done anything to curb "potential" use or addiction or that it is any more successful than another approach might be. That said, I think research and education might be of some (possibly great) assistance to curtailing addiction (who knows possibly use, too), but we currently have no real way of knowing what some effective approaches might be.

Madman 134
Our current drug war and any future drug war is only about containment, not eradication. The sooner we come to grips with that, the sooner we can talk more cogently about what is a good versus bad policy.
I'd like to see some evidence of that. According to Steve's NR link in 78, Richard Nixon declared "all-out global war on the drug menace,''. and I believe Ronald Reagan used similar rhetoric in 1982. This link establishes the goal as continued reduction of abuse of drugs, which is somewhat more ambitious than simple containment, imo.

No time to proofread (beyond spellcheck), hope this is comprehensive.
 
137steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Thu, Aug 15, 2002, 13:47
MITH - agree with a lot of things you say.

Question #1 - I believe that addictive substances should be made accessible to the addicted, and government addiction support programs could be funded at least in part by taxes imposed on drug purchases from merchants. How about cigarettes, booze, candy, fast food? Don't know if we want to go down that road.

#2 - On "War on Drugs". We have wars on crime, wars on drunk drivers (at least in some states, just have to announce date and Parrish in LA - I think based on SCOTUS ruling). We will never (realistically) eliminate either. But may contain it. But quite often your stated 'goal' is to eliminate them. Finding statements to eliminate something can be taken out of context.

#3 - I wonder if tobacco or alcohol were discovered today if it would be approved by the FDA as a drug or an edible 'food' for legal sale. Because they are legal, does that mean we should make more drugs 'legal'. You can sure make that argument.

I believe someday, cigarettes will be 'close' to illegal. Heading that way. May stay legal, but you might only be allowed to smoke in the privacy of your own home as long as no one lives within a certain distance. Or have to go to a 'smoke house'. In fact, if every level of government was not so dependent on the tax revenue, they'd try and make that happen tomorrow.

Booze. I sure it will always be legal. Because (I guess like MJ) some people use it responsibly. And then punish those that don't. How far we go after that, I'm not sure (if we even want to go any further).

I do believe MJ will someday be legal. But I'm not sure other drugs should slide it with it, just because people use them. Just have not heard a whole lot redeeming about coke, heroin, ecstasy, etc. We have people addicted (might be more than to illegal drugs) to prescription drugs. And some get them illegally by switching doctors, using multiple doctors, finding enabling doctors, on the street. Does that mean we should make them legal? And over the counter? We arrest people dealing in illegal prescription drugs. Is that part of the ‘war on crime’ or part of ‘war on drugs’? I agree with looking one by one, and than continue to fight (eliminate = contain) those that are illegal.

Until then - ? Did we stop war on prohibition before alcohol was legal again?
 
138Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 02:16
MITH 136 --

1) Containment v. eradication. Amazingly, your own link is entitled, The Effective National Drug Control Strategy. Control = containment. I think you made my point.

2) You have referred several times to the homicide rate as a result of the drug war. I have never seen good data to indicate that the homicide rate is a serious issue relative to the risk of death from direct usage of drugs. In 2000, for example, the ENTIRE homicide rate (including jealousy, serial killers, everything) was 5.9 out of 100,000. The drug-induced rate was 5.8 out of 100,000.

It is true that there is a relatively large quantity of inner-city gang violence, part of which can be attributed to drug sales. But gangs will exist with moderate drug decriminalization; they will probably exist with large quantities of decriminalization. When drug prices drop dramatically, does gang violence increase or decrease? See my point?

Also, consider: in 2000 there were 100 white deaths from all causes per 100,000 people, aged 15-24; 181 for black youths. Talking 13,000 and 5,000+, respectively. This is disproportionate, but not as terrible as it sounds when you put it in a ratio. This is even more inocuous when you consider that the ratio for women was 42 and 60, for whites and blacks, respectively. So there is a lot causing that higher black mortality besides firearm warfare.

In contrast, there were 15,000+ deaths from drugs altogether in the entire population. In other words, more deaths from drugs than the entire number of white 15-24 year olds who died from all causes combined, and almost 3 times as many people who died from drug-induced deaths as did black youths aged 15-24 FROM ALL CAUSES.
--------------
To compare any drug-related market to the market for fireworks is simply too absurd to deserve comment.
--------------
Paragraph 7: To call experimentation on humans an "advantage" of a plan is just plain sick. Please make the argument on the merits of trying to help people rather than making it easier for pseudo (oops, meant social) science researchers. Furthermore, given the fact that no social scientist has ever been able to conclusively demonstrate anything, I would cast grave doubts on any ability for social scientists to perform better on this subject, no matter how carefully you craft the laws to create your "control groups".

stats for homicide rates
 
139Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 10:47
Steve
1) Addictive controlled substances is what I meant, but I guess your point applies anyhow. So how else do we separate currently illegal drugs from the stuff you named? Candy and fast food are not physically addictive, in that there are no severe withdrawal symptoms. The physically addictive properties of nicotine are far exceeded by it's mental addictiveness (former pack-a-day smoker of ten years, myself). Candy, fast food and nicotine, while all dangerous with prolonged, especially excessive use, do not hinder the important daily functions of the average user (non-athletes, for example), even when used excessively. MJ, booze and perhaps cocaine, some amphetamines, ecstasy and most hallucinogens are somewhat more dangerous in this regard, though each of these affects the user in far different ways. The best answer I can come up with regarding your question here is my support of the following from, madman's 134:
For those reasons, I think the best idea is to revamp the entire issue. Have a "blue ribbon commission" talk about all sorts of drugs -- marijuana, meth, anti-biotics, steroids, prescription drugs, etc. -- and have it come up with a plan.

I don't see why the findings of Madman's 'blue ribbon commission' couldn't used as a guide for the states, leaving each to have ultimate control of their own drug policy.

2)Please point out some of my repeated stated goals for 'elimination'. It is possible my wording was sloppy or that I may have changed my mind on a particular stance since posting whatever you are referring to. In any case, I'd need some examples.

3)Great point. Again, I think I'd hope it were left up to the states.


Madman
Containment v. eradication. Amazingly, your own link is entitled, The Effective National Drug Control Strategy. Control = containment. I think you made my point

Actually, it makes neither of our points. I was looking for a link that outlined our national drug policy. In my haste to finish post 136 before I left work on Wed. (my home computer is being repaired), I only skimmed through some of the text, and did not realize that it was actually a link calling for drug policy reform, outlining it's own priorities. So, I'd still like to see some evidence of your claim that the objective of the war on drugs is specifically containment, and not reduction or eventual eradication. Further, it disturbs me that you would even more lazily claim that a single word in the title of an article or study trumps the stated objective or actual text within it. What's with that?

2)You have referred several times to the homicide rate as a result of the drug war. I have never seen good data to indicate that the homicide rate is a serious issue relative to the risk of death from direct usage of drugs.

I have not yet used the term homicide in this thread. Twice (posts 80 and 111) I have stated that addiction is more treatable than murder. I have made no mention of the homicide rate and I think you are deliberately transforming my arguments regarding drug related violence into something you can more easily counter. If I'm wrong, please provide an example in this thread where I have argued what you accuse me of, regarding any "homicide rate". You are blowing smoke. I think you'd throw one of your fits if I did that and say something like "I think this discussion is effectively ended"

It is true that there is a relatively large quantity of inner-city gang violence, part of which can be attributed to drug sales. But gangs will exist with moderate drug decriminalization; they will probably exist with large quantities of decriminalization. When drug prices drop dramatically, does gang violence increase or decrease? See my point?

So, if you eliminate the black market drug trade in a particular area, gangs will find something new to shoot each other over? Better to just leave the drug market as it is, then.

Your next two paragraphs goes back to refuting homicide rate arguments nobody ever made.

To compare any drug-related market to the market for fireworks is simply too absurd to deserve comment.

What's absurd is that statement, though I guess it's a fitting follow-up to the preceding two paragraphs. There are some clear similarities between illegal fireworks in NYS and some situations that would clearly arise under my proposed ideas in 136. If what I say is absurd, show me why. Obviously, fireworks are not physically addictive and intoxicating or otherwise mind altering substances, but they are illegal in some regions and are also pretty dangerous. More similarities can be drawn than simply market related ones.

To call experimentation on humans an "advantage" of a plan is just plain sick.

Exactly what do you think I meant by my plan allowing us to finally see "true control groups" in our research? People obtain drugs and use them and sometimes get sick or otherwise suffer effects from them but aren't willing to be honest with their doctors about their drug use and often can't be sure what is really in the substances they use. A regulated legal drug market ensures the user of what his substances actually are and their true potency. He is more likely to be honest and accurate with his physician who in turn has more accurate information to report to the medicine journals. You tell me where information on drug use and abuse will be more accurate, in places where the substances in question are legally obtained and used or where they aren't? Contrary to what you may think, there's plenty we don't know about the long term effects of use of most illegal drugs.

Please make the argument on the merits of trying to help people rather than making it easier for pseudo (oops, meant social) science researchers.

I've done precisely that in the majority of my contributions to this thread prior to my post 136.

Furthermore, given the fact that no social scientist has ever been able to conclusively demonstrate anything, I would cast grave doubts on any ability for social scientists to perform better on this subject...

I have to laugh at the fact that immediately following that paragraph, you claim to show proof of your homicide rate argument by providing a link to the CDC's National Vital Statistics Report. Are you kidding? That's not societal research? Decriminalization can only make drug related societal statistics, and thus the findings of your 'blue ribbon committee' more accurate.
 
140Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 12:04
MITH -- 1) references to our "Drug control" policies are incredibly numerous. I never said that a single word in the title trumped the text; the idea of a "new" drug control policy (as implicitly opposed to our current drug control policy) is rampant THROUGHOUT the document. The current model of drug control ... The current model of youth drug control ... I naively thought that pointing out the word in the title would be sufficient for you to actually read the entire document in your link and see the obvious... Maybe this link to the National Drug Control Policy site will open your eyes to reality.

2) You say that addiction is more treatable than murder, and then when I point out that deaths due to addiction are likely a much bigger problem than drug-related murders you claim I am blowing smoke. Unbelievable. What is even more shocking is that you know what passages I am referring to and you don't see the connection. Homicides are murders, in case you didn't realize that. Homicide rates are effectively murder rates. I am shocked that you think my response that deals with homicide rates is not applicable to your argument about murders.

Are you trying to argue that homicides are not a significant component of violence? Are you trying to argue that your references to murder were just for fun and weren't part of your real argument about violence? If you claim I am blowing smoke when I make a point directly onto something you have mentioned twice in this thread... well, I think these last two issues are speaking for themselves. This is truly unbelievable. We have such a little common basis for discussion of this topic that I am not sure where we could actually even begin to reach common ground.

3) Fireworks are illegal substances, drugs are illegal substances, why doesn't your argument work that the market for fireworks would be similar to the market for drugs? You totally dismiss out of hand the issues regarding mind alteration, addiction, violent withdrawal symptoms for some drugs, mind alteration effects ... and then claim that what remains are so similar an argument about one applies to the other. I think you assertion stands on its own. I will let the lurkers decide if it is reasonable to treat drugs like fireworks. I think the answer is self-evident.

4) Contrary to what you may think, there's plenty we don't know about the long term effects of use of most illegal drugs.

Telling me what I think again. I love it when you do that. I know we don't know a lot of the long-term effects of drug use. So what? It's immoral to expose human beings long-term to things that we think are potentially harmful.

Heck, the study on estrogen-progestin was cut-off because we thought we might have exposed 8 more people to breast cancer. For the record, I agree that any study that indicates harm to humans should have been terminated; my concern with that cut-off was with the statistics underlying the decision, not the morality of it.

Exposing a human being to PCP or meth "long-term" would be immoral. Who knows, there is some chance we are over-stating the dangers of exposure of the drug. But that doesn't matter. You have to have some belief that what you are experimenting with is at least innocuous, or the experiments are immoral. At this juncture, there is no reason to believe that long-term exposure to meth is anything but terribly bad.

To be clear -- my criticism is with your claim that there is some a priori "advantage" that we should put into your plan of "drug legalization" because it allows states to try to design "control group" social science experiments. My claim is that we should not positively weigh any such advantage.

If, on the other hand, the other arguments you have made (note: I don't know why you made the second to last comment in the previous post. It's totally redundant and non-responsive. I never claimed anything to the contrary, and my entire post would have been absurd without that assumption) encourage some states to accidentally set up different conditions that social scientists can then try to untangle for research purposes, that is a totally different matter.

What I am objecting to is the immorality of claiming that experimentation on humans -- a priori -- is a good thing.

To put it more simply, your argument that "experimentation" is an advantage should not be considered at this stage of the game. It should only be considered AFTER people have freely and voluntarily acted in what they thought were their best interests. Which also, BTW, means that there will not be clean "control groups".

you claim to show proof of your homicide rate argument by providing a link to the CDC's National Vital Statistics Report. Are you kidding?

Sigh. Demogaugery again. Didn't you complain about Ann Coulter doing this?

When did I argue that the CDC's statistics were proof of my homicide rates? I simply linked to their cite so that you could see where I got my data on homicide rates. Proof of the data used in the argument, not proof of the argument.

Sigh.

Decriminalization can only make drug related societal statistics, and thus the findings of your 'blue ribbon committee' more accurate.

Since when did access to more social statistics increase accuracy? Regardless, I would imagine the statistics will be about the exact same things -- how many addicts, how much violence, etc. Therefore, decriminalization will not "make" any statistics, it simply may affect statistics we already had.

And, for the record, I was talking about a political tool to put the details to and sell a reformed drug policy, not a commission to study decriminalization that had already happened. You surely realized this; I assume you thought your argument was cute and therefore worth typing? If so, please only use my suggestions in the context that they were given in the future.
 
141Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 12:10
Crap. Mis-typed my second to last point:

When did I argue that the CDC's statistics were proof of my homicide rates? Should have been When did I argue that the CDC's statistics were proof of my homicide arguments?

If it is not clear from my other threads, I believe statistics can be facts in question during debates, but cannot prove arguments. The distinction is subtle, but terribly important. "Data is meaningless without theory." is an aphorism that everyone should always keep in mind. Thus, citation of where you get your data is useful but meaningless. Arguments must be consistent with the data, and attempt to give the data meaning. But no data can "prove" an argument by itself.

Side note: data can refute well-constructed arguments (poorly constructed arguments are often so porous that they can avoid all refutation by simply changing contexts). This power is often confused with the positive power of proof, and it is the trap that you are leading me to, MITH, and it is the trap I am attempting to explicitly avoid.
 
142Stuck in the Sixties
      Leader
      ID: 12451279
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 12:49
Madman:

"Regarding the regulation, you are suggesting that there be no intervention in the drug market after legalization? I.e., no regulation? No monitoring of addicts?"

Correct. No regulation of anything after legalization. The reason most cite for regulation has to do with access. As long as the government is prohibited from slamming on taxes and fees that drive the price to levels that create crime, then no regulation is necessary or, more importantly, desirable.

"What if a ton of people become addicts and they clutter our streets and make every-day life difficult? Do we as a society have the obligation to pay for their rehab? Especially since we don't have the right to try to prevent the need for intervention prior to this?"

Madman, I've developed quite a bit of respect for your insights by reading this single thread. So I'm certain you understand better than most that a ton of people will not become addicts. There are studies to support what I'm suggesting in Britain (where the gross number of addicts has actually dropped over time) and the Netherlands.
The idea that "we" have to pay for their rehab is absurd. That's the same tired argument that suggests the government has the right to burden us with seat-belt laws because "we" have to pay for injuries sustained in accidents. And paying for rehab suggests an answer by the way the question is framed. If an addict chooses to stay addicted, then no "rehab" is necessary. I know two people personally who are addicted to two different substances. In both cases, they lead productive lives, supporting families with professional-level jobs.

"Also, you should try to answer things like the use of antibiotics. Surely we have the right to regulate access to those types of drugs? Isn't the argument very similar for meth?"

I'm probably not understanding you here. Why should the use of antibiotics be regulated? Or meth? I'm really not able to follow your reasoning --- for which I apologize.

Wow, this gets time consuming:

"I guess we shouldn't arrest all those drunk drivers unless they actually strike another vehicle huh?"

Baldwin - I don't appreciate sarcasm. It's generally a hurtful approach aimed more at embarrassing the speaker than at talking about the issues. There are several possible logically coherent responses but I'm not going to make any of them unless and until you decide to reason rather than attack.


"I think alcohol and how we treat it is the perfect counterpoint to anti-legalization arguments"

PD - couldn't agree more

"Each of those drugs are illegal for somewhat different reasons. Once a user is hooked on PCP, from what I understand, violent behavior and/or death is guaranteed. The best hope for society is that they are physically restrained and contained while de-toxing. The fact that you continue to hold onto the alcohol analogy when discussing a drug like PCP or brain-damaging meth shows that you are either not reading my posts or that I might as well not be writing them."

Madman - None of the drugs should be illegal for any reason. If you have a problem with how some people who use them act, then deal with the specific problems caused. You can't solve problems by obliterating a perceived evil. I have enough faith that you'll be able to find some point in history during which a ban on something has had a generally good effect but there won't be many. All who want to concentrate on preventing their fellow men from behaviors of almost any sort should understand the slippery slope they create by doing so. The successful banning of one substance becomes the case law used in banning the next. And the final link is often seen when ordinary people begin complaining about the absurdity of one law or another --- it usually comes from the prior attempt by government to regulate the way people live.

And PLEASE, don't start with arguments about permitting child abuse or anything else which involves hurting others (which of course is the ultimate answer to Baldwin's sarcastic rant about drunk drivers).

And Madman, before you take PD over the coals once more, consider this: In the final analysis, anything we ingest changes our bodies in one way or another. Once you begin to argue that "well, in this case there's brain damage," you're beginning to hand power over to whoever it is you trust to determine what is OK and what's not. I don't trust any of them to make my decisions for me. I happen to agree than Meth causes brain damage. So I won't use it and I'll do everything I can to make sure no one I care about uses it either. But I'm damned if I'll voluntarily allow my government to make those decisions for me.

"I'll support rational decriminalization of all substances without known deleterious side-effects."
Madman - That's precisely the problem. Criminalization should never have occurred in the first place. Who was it, do you suppose, who first decided to make certain plants illegal because people who so chose could process these plants and get high? Sure, there are plenty of substances in this world that have deleterious effects. So don't use them. It's almost the same argument that effects what's on television. If you don't like what's on, tune to a different channel. Don't try to force your neighbor to share your value judgments.

There's more and I apologize for not covering the other points various people have made, but I'm just too tired!

Don
 
143yankeeh8tr
      ID: 294351716
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 13:24
OT as you can get but it's time to express your displeasure with these greedy bastards who have set a strike date...Here you go...Contact info for
Major League Baseball Players Association
12 East 49th Street
24th Floor
New York, NY 10017

Telephone:
212/826-0808
212/826-0809 (licensing)

FAX:
212/752-4378

Email:
feedback@mlbpa.org
 
144Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 13:43
Phone call made, voicemail left.
 
145Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 14:33
SI60's 142 -- Obviously, I am stuck in what I perceive to be a pragmatic middle on the drug issue. I admit to being unable to appeal to a higher principle on the issue.

Thus, you are correct in your unstated criticism of my position that I am violating my professed belief in freedom. I haven't stated it on this forum, but in real life I am known as an extreme advocate of seat-belt law repeal for the exact reason you are citing here on the drug issue. I have on many occassions driven without a seat-belt (in town where I do not feel my probability of death is substantially increased by such behavior) waiting to get a ticket so I can take my case all the way to the SCOTUS, if possible. Unfortunately, I also try to obey traffic laws, so have not yet been pulled over. Maybe some day.

I have difficulty rationalizing this contradiction, other than saying that I am not one of these people that has a particular problem with looking like a hypocrite; the freedom to make a judgement call counter to my espoused principles -- as long as it is done rarely and with considerable conscious thought -- is a freedom that I am claiming in this case.

I appreciate the fact that you did not flame for taking this superficially hypocritical stance; many in society would have and do flame. It is a sad fact of political reality. But I digress...

Points in random order:

* If no drugs should be illegal for any reason, then I was suggesting that this rule of thumb should apply to perscription drugs as well. Antibiotics wasn't the best example. Vicadin might have been better -- it's addictive and has medicinal value. Anabolic steriods would be another. Eventually you get to anti-biotics, DDT, nuclear waste, Etc., etc.

Surely at some point, extremely addictive or extremely dangerous substances are worthy of regulation no matter how libertarian the philosophy. I was thus basically asking where you draw the line. You state that all drugs should be de-regulated, but what is your definition of "all drugs"? Drugs on the current illegal substance lists? Drugs that are mentioned in the 1988 UN Treaty we signed promising to engage in drug control? ??
---
You have a series of arguments in response to my PCP example. I brought up PCP precisely because it is my understanding that violent behavior or death is virtually guaranteed once someone starts taking it. IMO, therefore, we (society) has the right to regulate taking PCP; anyone who starts doing it is either knowingly or unknowingly altering their mind and body so that they will become indiscriminantly destructive in the future. Thus, the act of taking PCP, IMO, can and should be aggressively contained by society.

PCP is obviously an extreme drug. The slippery slope from PCP and things like meth to coke then to heroine to marijuana superficially appears to be a problem. A few comments on that:

First, the slippery slope went uphill historically; heroine was one of the first drugs to be regulated, then marijuana (downhill), then stronger psychadelic drugs.

Second, and more critically, this is one reason why I advocate a total reform of the drug laws -- revisit the principles by which we regulate which drugs. Do all of them, don't just do marijuana. Set up new "lines" to help stop slippery slope arguments as we create new drugs.

I personally think slippery slope arguments in general are worthy of consideration (some dismiss them out of hand as only speculation); however, if we are careful about how and why we choose to regulate and/or decriminalize certain drugs, I think the damage from miscategorization can be minimized while the benefits from regulation / legal action can be maxed.
------------------------
Regarding your POV on regulation, I am less cynical about the power of government. This is a fascinating issue that deserves more abstract discussion in another thread, IMO. I will just outline my position on it.

1) Human behavior in an otherwise free society can indeed frequently circumvent legal prohibitions on actions, especially those actions that are taken in private,
2) However, the power of the government to control and regulate our lives should not likewise be dismissed. Our founding fathers would have totally disagreed with your premiss that individuals are sufficiently able to circumvent the law so that the law itself might create more of a behavior rather than reduce it.
3) Illegal behavior is often more sensational and therefore memorable. I believe there is significant "observation bias" hard-wired into the human brain that causes us to over-estimate the ability or even willingness of most humans to evade government regulation.
4) Humans are more like sheeple and thus tend to go along to get along. Government regulation tends to have a very significant effect on the lives of those individuals, which, IMO, form a silent and largely invisible majority of people.
5) There are a wide variety of cases where regulation has reduced or affected human activity -- workplace safety, environmental protection, civil rights, etc., etc. I think the burden of proof is on the other foot -- prove that decriminalization can result in less of the negative behavior. I think we are very close to convincing a large proportion of the population that this is true about mj. But this is not because mj usage will fall; it's because societal damage to others from mj users is minimal and it's this second effect we should care about.
6) As a general rule, secondary effects should also be relegated to secondary roles. This is true in supply-side economics; it is also true in legalization of drugs. The primary effect is negative; there may be secondary positive effects on usage for some segments of society. But as a general rule, we should begin with the premiss that secondary effects are smaller than primary effects until proven otherwise.

Ugh. Could say more. As I said, worth another thread.
--------------------------
Brain Damage. Yes, I'm taking away your freedom to damage your own brain. I understand your freedom argument; meth is addictive and takes away your freedom. Same with PCP and other drugs.

Do I take away your freedom to damage your brain, or do I take allow you to take away your own freedom to make future choices? It's a paradox. Sometimes I fall on one side, sometimes on the other. Seat belt laws are -- I think -- absurd for adults. Meth laws, on the other hand, I think are necessary. Just depends on my perception of the damage they cause and the actual ability of a given person to knowingly and voluntarily continue to put themselves at risk.
-------------------
Paying for rehab. You argue that we shouldn't feel obligated. Again, I am sympathetic. Political realities in this country do not allow for ignoring elderly without pensions or addicted drug users cluttering the streets. I long ago gave up objections to Social Security on grounds of principle, and if I'm willing to embrace Social Security, I have to be willing to embrace enforced rehab for those found using drugs. It's the "good samaratin" paradox. If you can find a way around it, please describe. I am bowing to political reality.
--------------
Addicts I think a ton of people will become users who would not otherwise become users. A not insignificant proportion -- especially without substantial regulation / government supported re-hab or control, etc. -- will become addicts. I think the end result of total and uncompromising de-regulation of all drugs would be a collapse of American leadership in the world, probably within 4 generations, barring re-introduction of some form of regulation.
------------
General comment Because I hold pragmatic rather than principled views on this issue, I think our drug policy will need continual revision and re-examination over time.

Use of opium in the 1860-70's was sadly -- perhaps -- a societal good. Maimed and injured Civil War vets became addicted, but it also was one of the few ways to escape the pain. Maybe better regulation could have helped, hard to know.

As society has evolved, different degrees of regulation have been perceived to be necessary. This is not a continuous slippery slope in one direction -- we can go backward as well as forward.

Sometimes we make stupid decisions and go over-board from fear. This is the nature of a democratic society. When we do this, we should change our laws or re-evaluate.

But total abdication of a societal responsibility regarding the ever-increasing class of ever-increasingly powerful drugs is something that I am not willing to advocate. I cannot provide a good argument against it other than it strikes me as something that just won't work. For better or worse, certain social norms are codified into law, and these laws affect behavioral norms. There is a cultural effect that cannot be trivially dismissed.

Dang, I really do have a lot of other stuff to do today.
 
146Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 14:51
Crap, I had to come back to the computer for this one more additional point...

Why do we regulate children's access to tobacco, alcohol, violent movies, etc.?

One main reason is that we feel they are not sufficiently experienced in the world to make decisions that affect their long-term health or well-being. This is proper, IMO.

The exact same logic applies to addictive drugs. Only ex-addicts are sufficiently well-informed about what it is really like to try to get ourselves off of these drugs in the future. Some of these drugs (Vicadin, PCP, meth, etc.) are extreme cases in which I feel comfortable taking away your fleeting freedom to risk becoming an addict in order to give you an enduring ability to be drug-free.

Again, this doesn't explain our laws about marijuana or even LSD. Those are examples of why I think we need to revise and revisit the reasons for why which drugs are categorized and punished in which ways. However, the fact that some drugs need to be banned totally, and the fact that others (like heroine perhaps) need to be carefully regulated in some fashion seems to be self-evident when all the points I've made in the last two posts are duly considered.
 
147Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:11
MM - If you really want to get cited for driving w/o a seatbelt, and don't mind a short drive east - I can help you out with that.... ;0)
 
148Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:26
:) Well, I haven't gone out of my way to get cited yet. I'm sure if I raised enough of a rucus, I could do it.

I'm secretly hoping that Newdow will take up the cause. Since I'm not a lawyer, it would cost me a fortune in the case, or I'd have to represent myself. And that would take more time than I spend here in this forum, even! :)
 
149biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:56
Funny, Madman. I have a lawyer friend flouting seatbelt laws with similar intent.
 
150Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 16:12
madman

1)Regarding my request for evidence that the focus of our National drug policy is on containment of abuse rather than reduction or eventual eradication of abuse, thanks for the National Drug Control Policy link.

Their "About ONDCP" Page
The principal purpose of ONDCP is to establish policies, priorities, and objectives for the Nation's drug control program. The goals of the program are to reduce illicit drug use, manufacturing, and trafficking, drug-related crime and violence, and drug-related health consequences.

Transmitted Letter from The President
We have made progress in the past. From 1985 to 1992, drug use among high school seniors dropped each year.
Reduction = progress?

We acknowledge that drug use among our young people is at unacceptably high levels.
That doesn't imply reduction as a goal?

From the National Priorities section:
National Priorities I: Stopping Use Before It Starts
President Bush has said: "We recognize that the most important work to reduce drug use is done in America's living rooms and classrooms, in churches and synagogues and mosques, in the workplace, and in our neighborhoods...
------

Drug use will abate(!) only when parents, teachers, religious and civic leaders, and employers join together to reaffirm the principles of personal responsibility.
------

This real work of reducing drug use is opposed by armchair theorists who want to define the problem away and normalize drug use.
------

We will bring resolve to our efforts, we will bring together coalitions of uniquely qualified individuals, and we will bring a renewed sense of purpose to the challenge of preventing drug use. And we will see drug use recede.

-------------------------


2)You say that addiction is more treatable than murder, and then when I point out that deaths due to addiction are likely a much bigger problem than drug-related murders you claim I am blowing smoke.

Look, I never referred to the homicide rate as a result of the drug war, as you charge I did. That's blowing smoke. I'll stand by my statement, that addiction is more treatable than murder. You can argue that it's simplistic, or really doesn't apply to my greater stance and I'll agree it's certainly not one of my stronger points, and it's clearly not one by any means that I've at all stressed.


3)You totally dismiss out of hand the issues regarding mind alteration, addiction, violent withdrawal symptoms for some drugs, mind alteration effects...

I don't dismiss anything. I conceded all those, I did bring them up.

...and then claim that what remains between fireworks and illegal drugs are so similar an argument about one applies to the other.

I did nothing of the sort. There are some comparisons that can be drawn is all I said and I went on to point some out. Since you don't bother to address any of them specifically or individually, I see this is just more smoke.


4)I know we don't know a lot of the long-term effects of drug use. So what?

Because perhaps some of what we believe are sure detrimental effects of prolonged use can be curtailed or avoided if certain precautions are taken. Perhaps some are total misconceptions. Good god, perhaps there even might wind up being some benefits!

It's immoral to expose human beings long-term to things that we think are potentially harmful.

Do you honestly believe that leaving individuals to decide for themselves what is harmful and what isn't is the same thing as exposing them to what is harmful?

You have to have some belief that what you are experimenting with is at least innocuous, or the experiments are immoral.

I don't understand what you mean here. Are you suggesting that I am advocating enlisting subjects to be exposed to or otherwise ingest harmful substances for the purpose of conducting experiments on the effects of long term drug use? I can't see why you would think that, so I am left to assume that you are asserting that tracking the health of known drug users for the purpose of increasing the medical community's awareness of the effects of these substances is the equivalent of using humans as lab rats in a twisted experiment? If that's the case, I don't agree.

OK, your next two paragraphs clear this up.

If, on the other hand, the other arguments you have made ...encourage some states to accidentally set up different conditions that social scientists can then try to untangle for research purposes, that is a totally different matter.

That's precisely what I mean. I thought I was clear enough.

To put it more simply, your argument that "experimentation" is an advantage should not be considered at this stage of the game. [We are in agreement] It should only be considered AFTER people have freely and voluntarily acted in what they thought were their best interests. Which also, BTW, means that there will not be clean "control groups".

I guess you're right about that. But they will be much "cleaner" than we currently rely on for our understanding of effects - and treatment too, agreed?


When did I argue that the CDC's statistics were proof of my homicide rates? I simply linked to their cite so that you could see where I got my data on homicide rates. Proof of the data used in the argument, not proof of the argument.

Dropped.


Since when did access to more social statistics increase accuracy? Regardless, I would imagine the statistics will be about the exact same things -- how many addicts, how much violence, etc.

Well, physicians will be much more aware of how much of a particular substance needs to be ingested for an OD to take place and what physical conditions in people make overdosing more or less likely. They will better be able to track the use habits of addicts. They will better be able to assess what levels of use are likely to lead to addiction and perhaps what might predispose some people toward addiction. Increased accuracy will be a result of the new varied circumstances under which physicians will have subject cases to review. You don't agree?
 
151Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 16:56
Containment Current usage rates are too high, according to the government. Therefore reduction, implicitly to some acceptably low containment level, is the goal. More simply, our policy is Drug CONTROL. No where is elimination discussed as a goal or standard by which we should be measured.
-------------
Fireworks The dramatic differences we apparently agree on are too great for me to consider whatever similarities remain useful.
--------------
Medical Ethics
Allowing people to voluntarily expose themselves to drugs that are known to be dangerous is unacceptable, morally, from a scientist's point of view. That is why they terminated the estrogen-progestin study rather than ask participants if they wanted to voluntarily continue. Forcing them to consume the bad thing is maybe worse, but both are immoral.

Again, this isn't a statement about government morality. It's a statement about the use of those who voluntary become addicts to study drug treatment. We know enough to know that many of these things are harmful; we don't need to know exactly how bad things get in the long run. Maybe the brain miraculously heals itself 7-10 years after meth use; how in the world could that possibly justify experiments exposing humans to meth for long-term?

Therefore, I view the "experimental design" improvements as an EVIL rather than an advantage. They would be immoral if you did them on purpose; they are therefore immoral if you claim them as an advantage of pursuing a certain policy.
-------------------------
If you first make the case that there is a legit chance that multiple solutions might be of equal value to society and equal morality, then by all means, use the states as experimental breeding grounds for laws. Treatment heroine centers on the Swiss model or whatever.

Regardless, the value of any statistical cleaniless must be totally and 100% irrelevant to the decision. Otherwise we run the risk as a society of allowing dangerous experimentation on the poor and ignorant simply to satiate the curiosity of the educated classes.
------------------
No, I don't agree that increased information from a laisez faire approach to drugs will substantially improve the information available to the public. If certain segments of society do learn the truth, it will be obfuscated by the propangandizing elements of society that will have their wealth, power, or social prestige based upon continued repression of drug users.

We have decent information now on the deleterious effects of a large number of popular drugs. I doubt that any subsequent improvement will have much effect on actual health outcomes, ceteris paribus.

In fact, knowing which levels of use are likely to lead to addiction is opening the flood gates for demagoguery. Publishing any sort of data to that effect is encouraging use up to that level; what good is it to know how many cigarettes you have to smoke before you can become addicted?

Actually, for that matter, we have no idea how many cigarettes it takes, so that fact in itself casts grave doubts on your assertion that we would learn a lot more if people were free to experiment on themselves.
 
152biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 17:29
Madman -

Regarding the ethics of exposuring participants to drugs.

If you are talking about a clinical trial, where you randomize volunteers to a particular drug which is a priori assumed to be harmful, then I would agree with you, this would be extremely unethical, except in limited circumstances where the disease is worse than the cure. For example, we supply chemotherapy, which makes you sick, for assumed greater benefit of treating your cancer.

This is very different than observational studies (which I believe MITH is advocating), where the scientist has no control over a participant's actions, but seeks to obtain useful knowledge by passive means. For example, asking physicians how many cigerettes they have smoked in there lives, and then attempting to determine if there is an association with lung cancer. Nothing unethical about this.
 
153Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 17:36
but seeks to obtain useful knowledge by passive means You mean advocating, voting for and talking about changes in laws with the intent to create a study is **passive**?

If so, I think we just found a major loophole. Simply have all medical practicioners VOTE on whether or not to conduct an ethical study.
 
154Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 17:46
To be clear, MITH was advocating that positive benefits from unspecified and as yet unplanned and undocumented studies should be considered when discussing a change in the law to allow a behavior.

Maybe we should end FDA tracking of contaminated meat. Terrorists might try to contaminate our food supply and we really don't know how quickly bacteria would spread. By allowing states to freely expose citizens who would voluntarily expose themselves to potentially contaminated meat, we could get nice scientific estimates for how quickly various forms of diseases would spread in the population and how ready our medical community is to attack it.

Advocating to allow people to freely participate in something that is known or believed to be physically dangerous because you think social scientists would be able to measure it better is sick.

If, despite your best efforts, such legislation gets passed, using the differences to measure the damage is an entirely different matter. I believe MITH is confusing one with the other.
 
155biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 17:59
Maybe I didn't read the thread closely enough, or maybe you are just being intentionally difficult Madman, but I assumed that changing the laws wouldn't be part of a study, but easing our ability to study particular drugs, and improving the quality of the data in such studies, would simply be a potential side benefit.

I not sure "Item 6: Change Drug Laws" as part of an NIH proposal would fly with too many IRBs, nor with our state and federal representatives.

BTW: Thanks for not picking on my Bushism: exposuring though I kinda like it, and will try to sneak it into casual conversation this weekend. Maybe it will be a new crime related to public nudity and digital cameras.

Maybe I can run for president. ;)
 
156Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 18:09
Another example:

Recently studies have been done on the minimum wage by using state-to-state variation.

Given the preponderance of the evidence prior to these studies that increases in the minimum wage lead to unemployment in minority and low-income demographic groups, I believe it would have been unethical to advocate the increase of a minimum wage in one state as opposed to a neighbor on the basis that it would provide economists with natural "control groups". That is sick.

On the other hand, if you honestly believe that the minimum wage's deleterious employment effects are offset by other phenomenon, then it is OK to advocate for an increase in the minimum wage. AFTER such an increase in one state would occur, it would also be appropriate to measure its affects.

The difference is in cause-and-effect. Advocating for control group creation on the basis that it will aid science is no better than advocating for direct experimentation on human participants. If the control groups already exist and you just observe them, the story is different.
-----------------------
Also, I am not sure how broadly you -- biliruben -- were meaning this statement the scientist has no control over a participant's actions, but seeks to obtain useful knowledge by passive means. There are many cases where this would still be considered unethical. The use of Dr. Mengel's research, for example, was highly controversial even after the fact. Later scientists could affect NOTHING about his original participants or methods, and yet there are obvious ethical problems with looking at the data he collected and trying to learn things from it.

There is also a set of complaints or pitfalls surrounding what is meant by "no control". Would you allow the estrogen/progestin study to continue if all the participation was fully voluntary and not under the "control" of the scientists? Of course not. Many of the participants would be participating solely because they knew the scienists would be watching. There is no "control" per se, but it is still unethical.
--------------------------------------
Regardless, having done a number of state-to-state studies, the controls are not nearly as clean as you think they would be, and I doubt that you will learn much if anything by such variation in the data.
 
157biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 18:28
I wasn't intending my statement to be very broad at all. I was referring to this particular situation. There are a variety of ways data can be passively collected, yet do harm to a participant of used improperly. Genetic data is the latest hot topic, ethically. A participant's protections are still being defined.

In your Mengel example, the original "scientist" was not "passive" in any way, from my limited knowledge on the subject. This would not be considered an observational study anyone's definition.
 
158Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 18:47
True regarding Mengel. The wide array of other examples still apply here. I was talking Mengel just to make sure your passivity requirement was indeed restricted.
 
159Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 18:57
maybe you are just being intentionally difficult Madman, but I assumed that changing the laws wouldn't be part of a study, but easing our ability to study particular drugs, and improving the quality of the data in such studies, would simply be a potential side benefit.

I am being intentionally difficult. Being ethical is not easy.

My point was that it is not appropriate/ethical to advocate changing the legal environment because it would create natural research opportunities on humans easier. A scientist can't engage in that sort of thing ethically; I fail to see why I as a voter should be held to a less challenging standard. Or maybe you are proclaiming natural moral superiority of medical researchers?

Change the legal environment because you think it might improve society; because you think the current structure sucks; whatever. But I will refuse to acknowledge the validity of an argument that goes "It would make research better or easier, so we should do it." Observational research should be and must be ENTIRELY passive for it to be ethical.

If there is/are any nice side research effects of changes in actions, you do NOT consider those side effects when making the decision to actively change people's behavior. Otherwise that passivity has been violated.
 
160Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 09:44
More from the Real War on Drugs

BTW, if you want a good laugh every day, just read the Arab News on a regular basis.
 
161Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sun, Aug 25, 2002, 22:31

How many people have to be under direct supervision of law enforcement before you have a police state? Whatever the number is, at the current rate of growth it won't take us long to get there. According to these DOJ figures one out of 32 American adults -- over three percent of the population -- is in jail, on parole, or on probation. This represents a whopping forty-nine percent increase over the last ten years. Most of this growth appears to come from nonviolent drug offenses. Another example of how the Drug War is leading -- in this case directly, not metaphorically -- to the creation of a police state.

Okay, I don't want to go over the top. But really -- prisons are hellholes for the most part. And some people deserve to be in hellholes. But not all that many. Certainly not this many. I think that future historians will look back on this mass imprisonment the way we look on the internment of Japanese-American citizens in World War Two.
- Glenn Reynolds [instapundit]

 
162Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sat, Sep 14, 2002, 09:20
SZ

Take a look at this. No wait, sit down first, then take a look at this. [only good for today - daily poll]

Notice that more than half of the most conservative readers around favor decriminalizing pot in some manner or another.
 
163Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 29742022
      Wed, Sep 25, 2002, 18:55
DOJ still trying to link War on Drugs with War on Terror Pretty damn lame.
 
164Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Wed, Sep 25, 2002, 19:08
Excellent piece, MBJ
 
165yankeeh8tr
      ID: 68181212
      Wed, Sep 25, 2002, 21:17
Outstanding. FOX my have gotten one right.
 
166James K Polk
      ID: 23754811
      Sat, Sep 28, 2002, 22:07
We're Jeff and Tracy. We're Your Good Neighbors. We Smoke Pot.
 
167Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Wed, Oct 02, 2002, 12:09


Couldn't agree more.
 
168Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Oct 02, 2002, 12:19
I agree. It's a sad state of affairs win the "grass lobby" makes a better, more principled argument for federalism and the 10th Amendment than does a nominally conservative Attorney General.
 
169Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 566332517
      Tue, Dec 03, 2002, 11:42
Study: Marijuana may not lead to hard drugs
 
170Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Tue, Dec 03, 2002, 12:12
Marijuana Rights Group Wants To Sue Drug Czar

Backers of drug reform policy say White House officials overstepped their bounds by using taxpayer funds to actively campaign against statewide ballot initiatives in the last election.

"It doesn't pass the Joe Six-Pack stink test," St. Pierre said. "It doesn't feel right. If they take money from the federal bureaucracy to travel to another state to deter its citizens from voting a certain way it may be criminal."


MPP Declares War on Drug Czar's Illegal Campaigning

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- On Wednesday, December 4, the Marijuana Policy Project will file a formal "complaint of possible prohibited personnel practice" with the federal Office of Special Counsel, charging White House Drug Czar John Walters with violating federal law by using "his official authority and influence for the purpose of ... affecting the result of an election" -- specifically, the election that included Question 9, MPP's Nevada marijuana initiative.

MPP's Executive Director Robert Kampia and Director of Government Relations Steve Fox will discuss the complaint at a noon press conference on December 4. At that time, MPP will also release a letter to the Nevada Secretary of State's office alleging that John Walters illegally campaigned against Question 9 without properly reporting his activities to the state, as required by Nevada's campaign finance law.

"During the fall campaign, John Walters declared war on the law and war on the truth," Kampia said. "Today, on behalf of U.S. taxpayers -- including the 5,000 who contributed to our campaign -- we are declaring war on the drug czar for his illegal and dishonest activities. In filing this official complaint, we are calling for the removal of John Walters from office for gross violations of the Hatch Act." The Hatch Act, originally enacted in 1887, bars federal employees from carrying out certain campaign-related activities.

"Walters has committed numerous crimes against the taxpayers," Kampia added. "He used his official authority to affect the outcome of the Question 9 election, as well as other state drug policy initiatives, in plain violation of the Hatch Act. Because none of this activity was properly reported as campaign contributions, he is in equally plain violation of Nevada campaign finance laws. Walters conducted a campaign of lies against Question 9, using the taxpayers' money to spread misinformation."

Go get'em guys!
 
171Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 13:34
The barbarians get closer to the gate as Canada to decriminalize pot. According to the story, the nost conservative party in Canada, the Canadian Alliance, is only quibbling as to the amount. Randy White seems well informed on the conversion table to be applied: ""Everybody should know that 30 grams equals anywhere from 40 to 60 joints."

Toral
 
172Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 13:58
Great news, Toral. Thanks for the post.
 
173Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 14:45
Barbarian! 8]
 
174yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 271151013
      Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 15:00
How exactly does one go about becoming a Canadian? Does it help that I already like hockey?
 
175Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 15:13
They let anyone become a Canadian. That's why the people smugglers of the world make a beeline for Canada. I can just imagine the gurupie reunions on some beach on Vancouver Island if this goes thru. 8] Momma told me not to come.
 
176Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 15:27
Nah, I'm doing my best to make it happen right here in Seattle, WA so I don't have to leave!
 
177Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Fri, Dec 13, 2002, 13:26
Extreme happiness. Justice has prevailed. PD, you should be proud of your state's top court, now it's up to the other 49 to wake up!

State's civil forfeiture law struck down, Judge says the pursuit of profits from property sales could taint prosecutions.

The state's civil asset forfeiture law is unconstitutional because it gives prosecutors a financial incentive for seizing cash, cars, homes and other property connected to a crime, a state Superior Court judge ruled.

In a case that has been closely watched around the country, Judge Thomas Bowen held that using seized funds to help finance police and prosecutor agencies violates the due process rights of the owner of the assets involved. The opinion, issued Wednesday but announced yesterday, won't stop police from seizing property related to crimes, but the way the funds are distributed and used has to change, the judge ruled.

"The decision is going to ensure that police and prosecutors throughout the state make their decisions in the interest of justice and not for the pursuit of property and profit," said Scott Bullock, attorney with the Institute for Justice, a Washington, D.C.-based libertarian organization that brought the suit.


There are so many cases all over the country where the police seize boats, houses, cars and don't even bring charges. Everyone on these boards, both sides of the aisle should rejoice at the end of this ridiculous overreach by government officials.
 
178Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Fri, Dec 13, 2002, 14:10
My wife and my favorite Star Trek line:

"I'm feeling a sense of extreme joy...and gratitude" - Counselor Troy
 
179Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Mon, Dec 16, 2002, 12:13
This is simply amazing.

Sen. Dan Burton, chairing his final House Government Reform Committee hearing, has a huge change of heart, questioning the never ending War on Some Drugs and wonders aloud what would happen if politicians like him weren't afraid to "take the profits out of illegal drugs"

This exchage occurs one hour and 18 minutes into the hearing.

The following is conservative Dan Burton speaking at the House Government Reform Committee hearing in Congress on on "America's Heroin Crisis, Colombian Heroin and How We Can Improve Plan Colombia." December 12, 2002

Dan Burton: I want to tell you something. I have been in probably a hundred or a hundred and fifty hearings like this at various times in my political career,. And the story is always the same. This goes back to the sixties. You know, thirty or thirty five years ago. And every time I have a hearing, I hear that people who get hooked on heroin and cocaine become addicted and they very rarely get off of it. And the scourge expands and expands and expands. And we have very fine law enforcement officers like you go out and fight the fight. And you see it growing and growing, and you see these horrible tragedies occur. But there is no end to it.

And I see young guys driving around in tough areas of Indianapolis in cars that I know they can’t afford and I know where they are getting their money. I mean that there is no question. A kid can’t be driving a brand-new Corvette when he lives in the inner city of Indianapolis in a ghetto. You know that he has gotta be making that money in someway that is probably not legal and probably involves drugs.

Over seventy percent of all crime is drug-related. And you alluded to that today. We saw on television recently Pablo Escobar gunned down and everybody applauded and said “that’s the end of the Medellín cartel. But it wasn’t the end. There is still a cartel down there. They are still all over the place. When you kill one, there’s ten or twenty or fifty waiting to take his place. You know why? Its because of what you just said a minute ago, Mr. Carr, Mr. Marcocci (sp). And that is that there is so much money to be made in it – there is always going to be another person in line to make that money.

And we go into drug eradication and we go into rehabilitation and we go into education, and we do all of these things... And the drug problem continues to increase. And it continues to cost us not billions, but trillions of dollars. Trillions! And we continue to build more and more prisons, and we put more and more people in jail, and we know that the crimes – most of the time – are related to drugs.

So I have one question I would like to ask all of you, and I think this is a question that needs to be asked. I hate drugs. I hate people who succumb to drug addiction, and I hate what it does to our society. It has hit every one of us in our families or friends of ours. But I have one question that nobody ever asks, and that is this question: What would happen if there was no profit in drugs? If there was no profit in drugs, what would happen. If they couldn’t make any money out of selling drugs, what would happen?

Carr: I would like to comment. If we made illegal... what you are arguing then is complete legalization?

Dan Burton: No I am not arguing anything. I am asking the question. Because we have been fighting this fight for thirty to forty years and the problem never goes way...

....Well I don’t think that the people in Colombia would be planting coca if they couldn’t make any money, and I don’t think they would be refining coca and heroin in Colombia if they couldn’t make any money. And I don’t think that Al Capone would have been the menace to society that he was if he couldn’t sell alcohol on the black market – and he did – and we had a horrible, horrible crime problem. Now the people who are producing drugs in Southeast Asia and Southwest Asia and Colombia and everyplace else. They don’t do it because they like to do it. They don’t fill those rooms full of money because they like to fill them full of money. They do it because they are making money. At some point we to have to look at the overall picture and the overall picture – and I am not saying that there are not going to be people who are addicted – they are going to have to be education and rehabilitation and all of those things that you are talking about - but one of the parts of the equation that has never been talked about – because politicians are afraid to talk about it – this is my last committee hearing as Chairman. Last time! And I thought about this and thought about this, and thought about this. And one of the things that ought to be asked is “what part of the equation are we leaving out?” And “is it an important part of the equation?” And that is – the profit in drugs. Don’t just talk about education. Don’t just talk about eradication. Don’t just talk about killing people like Escobar, who is going to be replaced by somebody else. Let’s talk about what would happen if we started addressing how to get the profit out of drugs.
 
180Matt S
      Donor
      ID: 218402015
      Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 18:32
We're well on our way:

Judge Rules Marijuana Law Invalid

If the appeal holds up, which many think it will, that will open the door to every other court to give the not guilty verdicts for possesion. So what does this mean?

Well, even the Canadian Liberal government isn't stupid enough to keep charging people with possesion only to let them off, wasting money in the process. This will inevitably lead to decriminalization altogther, as there is no way the government would allow for Joe Blow to grow and sell when they could do it for themselves and take the 90% profit margin.

The only opposition to this, ironically enough is not our people. Our relatively uneducated population (on the subject matter) already favour complete decriminalization at exactly 50%. Up from 43% at around this time last year, IIRC. The naysayers are our neighbours to the south. The Shrub has promised trade sanctions if we follow through with it.

Conclusion: Marijuana will be decriminalized in Canada within the next year. Along with the growing support for the issue, and the court rulings, Cretien will be a goner very soon, and whomever replaces him will in all likelyhood have more fortitude to challenge Bush (I can't imagine anyone with less) I wonder how long it will take to give our tourism industry a huge boost, with all the Seattle Zen's of the world making trips up here?

:-)
Matt S
 
181Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 18:54
Great link, Matt S

There have been a slew of great stories and rulings out of Canada in just the past month. That Ontario judge is simply a genius! Got to invite him down to Hempfest this year!

What I really like about the prospects of decrim in Canada is the fact that our clowns in the US are raising such a stink. Nothing will set off a fence-sitting Canadian more than an idiot like John Walters flying up North to tell y'all what you are doing wrong.

Way to go Canada!

PS: I visit Vancouver a lot already. Great city.
 
182Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 19:02
I don't know diddly about Canadian jurisprudence; but, assuming that the wheels are in motion for the decriminalization of marijuana in Canada, I want predictions on the short and long term affect on US law. Right now I think that the table is set for several Western states to legalize personal use - but that will be of little matter unless the Feds change (or lose in court) their current enforecment of Federal drug law.
 
183yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 30055316
      Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 19:36
mbj - here's my prediction: the already liberal northeast and northwest states will become the first regions/states to decriminalize marijuana use - the feds will fight it, but since enforcement is nine tenths local, the point will be moot. Pot will flow relatively freely in these border states and eventually the rest of the country will (slowly) follow suit.
 
184Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 21:49
Prediction

The powers behind the scenes bribe or threaten the right people and Canada changes it's mind.
 
185Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 13:31
Excellent

Nothing makes me feel more confident something is certain to happen than a Baldwin prediction that it won't.
 
186Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 15:23
SZ

I hope you are right but you will remember what happened to the British plan to use clinics as per our clinics approach thread. Some mysterious pressure from the USA showed up to cancel this sane approach.
 
187Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 16:03
The pressure will be there and it won't be mysterious, but I truly believe that Canada will not bow to this pressure.
 
188Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Fri, Jan 10, 2003, 14:01


Lesson of the day, do not smoke up right before entering a "Figure 8 demolition derby"

It's official: smoking dope makes you a worse driver. But cannabis has less effect on driving ability than alcohol, according to a study by the Transport Research Laboratory (TRL) in Crowthorne, Berkshire.

Tracking ability was the only test criterion that was adversely affected: the volunteers found it very difficult to follow a figure-of-eight loop of road when given a high dose

However, the silly little bunnies that run out in front of your car and laugh at you are still safe as it seems that Reaction times to motorway hazards and performance on cognitive tests in the lab were not significantly affected.
 
189Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 55343019
      Fri, Jan 16, 2004, 18:47
This is simply amazing, heartwarming news!

Venezuela Decriminalizes Drug Possession

In sum, the drug addict or user no longer faces prison or penalty in Venezuela if he possesses small amounts of his drug of choice (specifically mentioned by the law are marijuana, hashish, cocaine and its derivatives, opium and its derivatives, and synthetic drugs).

I could not find mention of this from mainstream media outlets. For those of you who read Spanish, here is a link to a story. Seems that Chavez also legalized abortion and euthanasia in one fell swoop.

As South America refuses to play along with America's Drug War hegemony, we will start to look stupid as the last of the purveyors of the Drug War myths. Can't happen soon enough.
 
190Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 14826271
      Fri, Jan 16, 2004, 19:01
Zen, please, for your cause's sake, don't hold Venezuela's recent legal "reforms" up as some kind of positive example - they're heading for a nightmare down there.

Things like this are going to lead to absolute disaster. I have a client from Venezuela who predicts the US or UN will be there on a "nation saving" mission in five years.
 
191Baldwin
      ID: 2211132920
      Fri, Jan 16, 2004, 20:51
Venezuela is heading down such a bad path it makes you long for the days of gunboat diplomacy.
 
192katietx
      ID: 510451113
      Fri, Jan 16, 2004, 21:44
SZ, perhaps a change in location is in your future?
 
193Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 55343019
      Thu, Feb 12, 2004, 14:02
Here's a great editorial from JKP's very own rag: End policy that keeps people with drug offenses from qualifying for food stamps.

Case in point.

Nice set of stories, Polk.
 
194nerveclinic
      ID: 38145910
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 03:06
Katie SZ, perhaps a change in location is in your future?

Just because the Father land has some F*ed up values we have to pick up and move?

In your America Katie should we all have moved just because we thought blacks should have been allowed to use the same water fountain as whites? That was America 40 years ago.

Today if we are against abortion should we have to leave the country?

If we believe we should be able to pray in schools should we leave the country?

If we want to smoke in restaurants should we leave the country?


Those are analogous arguments.

Why is it whenever some points out some failings of our system of government theres always someone who says we should move?...maybe that someone doesn't believe in democratic discourse.


 
195sarge33rd
      ID: 2014486
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 09:04
not to speak for katie (I think we all know she is perfectly capable of doing that for herself lol), but the suggestion NC that perhaps she is opposed to discourse is I think, off the mark.

When it comes to drug use/addiction, I for one am satisifed that it has been shown to impose hugely detrimental costs upon the society. Particularly in our society with our already everpresent need for instant gratification. In others, with a more laid-back approach to life in general, the drugs may not pose quite the same level of potential disaster. I cant speak for those other societies though, I dont live within them.

Drug useage, has been adequately demonstrated to in all too many cases (note, I did not say in all...) lead to drug addiction. This begets a number of anti-social behaviors and problems. The treatment of the addict, imposes a burdensome cost upon the society which allowed for that addiction. The continued use of the drugs, creates a need for substantial cash flow on the part of the addict. Something which in many more cases than not, poses an impossible burden for the addict to legitimately bear. Thus, burglaries, break-ins, muggings etc...all increase as the addicts need for cash exceeds their ability to generate that cash via legal daily means.

Now, it can (and probably will) be argued that if drugs were legalized, their costs would come down, they would/could be regulated/taxed etc etc. I find it more than a little ironic, that some of the same folks who are in favor of the public bans on cigarette smoking (citing health risks and such) are in favor of legalizing various drugs here in the U.S. The two would seem to me, to go hand-in-hand, yet supporters of one ban are supporters of lifting the other ban. This inconsistency in thinking, makes less than no sense to me what-so-ever. Legalize MY drug habit but prohibit yours? Last time I checked studies and such, cigarette smoking for ex, did not pose such a financial strain as to make it necessary for one to steal their neighbors television in order to support the habit. Nor does cigarette smoking, impact in a negative way, such things as motor skills, eye-hand coordination, depth perception or sense of timing. All of which, marijuana HAS been proven to have a negative impact upon. Making the operation of motor vehicles by one "under the influence", a hazardous situation for all.

Lest you think I am writing this from a "high and mighty" position, in my High School days I wrote a piece for the local newspaper advocating the legalization of marijuana. I smoked grass, as did probably 95% of my peers. I quit using dope in the fall of 1975. Post graduation, pre entry into the Army, when a close friend of mine got hold of some truly bad shiit and died in my arms from OD. I turned at that time 'narc' for the local PD, and helped to bust the scumbag that sold my buddy the crappy dope. And before we compare 'dope' to booze, I for one imbibe very little of that any more either. Bought a 6-pack Saturday before the Super Bowl. Still have 2 bottles in the fridge. *shrug* The last bottle of Crown Royal we bought, I think lasted us about a year. But then, thats 40+ year old "maturity" at work. Cannot be compared in the same light, to your average 20 year old.
 
196Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 09:23
sarge,
When you say your friend died of an OD on some really bad dope, you don't specify what kind. As I'm sure you're aware, deaths from marijuana are virtually non-existent, so I'm guessing the culprit would be the most common - heroin.
While I generally agree with much of your post, I think there needs to be a distinction between marijuana and addictive narcotics, just as there is a distinction between Tylenol and potent prescription narcotics like oxycontin and percodan.
I haven't smoked pot in years, but numerous of my friends and acquaintances do, business owners, lawyers, a whole slew of successful professionals. Most of here I would imagine agree that a person who has just smoked a joint is far lees a threat to society than one who has just polished off a 5th of Jack Daniels.
 
197Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 09:30
I find it more than a little ironic, that some of the same folks who are in favor of the public bans on cigarette smoking (citing health risks and such) are in favor of legalizing various drugs here in the U.S.

I don't see the comparison. No one here that I know of who supports public smoking bans is arguing that people should be able to use currently illegal drugs in restaurants and bars or any other public places. Personally, I support legalizing and regulating some illegal substances and also for leaving public bans on smoking to the explicit will of the people. You're ignoring the difference between criminalization of public use and criminalization across the board.
 
198sarge33rd
      ID: 2014486
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 09:30
it was heroin PV. Sorry for not mentioning that factoid.

agreed, ONE joint is not the same as a 5th of JD. But it is worse than ONE shot of JD.

Marijuane has been referred to by some as 'a gateway' drug. Suggesting that marijuane usae leads to the use of others. I do not believe this to be a necessarily true statement. I think it CAN be true, in that as one uses marijuana and that frequency of useage increases, so too does your bodies tolerance. You now face 2 choices, use more of it OR use something different. I think it is not the drug itself that serves as a gateway, but the users choice to use something different in pursuit of what marijuana once provided but cannot anymore. (Compares rather closely I think to the alcoholic. What once took a 6-pack, now takes a 5th and next month will take even more to attain the end result.)
 
199Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 09:33
MJ is far less a gateway than beer.
 
200sarge33rd
      ID: 2014486
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 09:36
agreed MITH. MJ is less of a gateway, more of a 'facilitator' for lack of a better term.

and damn my pathetic typing habits and outside distractions. Seems I only typed half my intended statement above to PV. Meant to say, it wasNT heroin, but acid that killed my buddy. Laced or cut with something I cant recall the specifics anymore. Been alot of years ago.
 
201Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 11:19
MJ is far less a gateway than beer.

You got anything to back that up MITH? Sure doesn't jibe with my experience. Alchohol is certainly the most dangerous and destructive drug in our society (far more deadly than MJ); mainly because it's the most widely used. But it's not nearly the indicator of "harder" future drug use that MJ is; especially in juveniles. Juveniles who smoke MJ regularly are going to try crack or meth at some point; beer drinking teens aren't any more likely than tee-totalers to go to harder drugs, IME.

MJ use can certainly be addictive, at least emotionally addictive. I see way to many people on probation who know they will be drug tested, know that a dirty test will mean prison, and yet still smoke MJ. No other way for me to explain that, other than that a hit of MJ meant more to them than a few years of their life.
 
202Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 11:32
MBJ
I guess it depends of what you mean by gateway. Generally, I think I accept the term to mean 'gateway to addiction'. I assume you mean 'gateway to the use of harder illegal drugs'? Personally, I'd bet that alcoholism is a greater problem than general hard drug use (when you lump in casual use) in America.
 
203Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 55343019
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 14:34
Stories like this make my blood boil.

Founder of the U.S. Marijuana Party arrested for having less than a gram of marijuana in her home.

After a 15-month legal battle, authorities in Alexander City on Tuesday convicted Loretta Nall, who founded the U.S. Marijuana Party in 2002, for possession of less than a gram of the drug and some paraphernalia.

Members of the drug squad raided her mobile home Nov. 13, 2002, based on statements her kindergarten daughter made in school about plants. Officers also used as evidence for the search warrant a letter to the editor published in The Birmingham News. Signed by Nall, the Nov. 7, 2002, letter calls for marijuana users to come out of the closet and change laws against it.


This makes me realize that I am lucky to live in Seattle and outraged that my brothers and sisters outside of liberal cities face criminal records for speaking out against marijuana. Using a letter to the editor as evidence in a search warrant request is Stasiesque.

There are tens of thousands of people smoking marijuana in Alabama. The fact that Loreta Nall, whom I have met and is a very nice lady, was one of the few arrestees is not coincidence.

Just stop and think about this: Would not the European press have blared headlines had one of their national political parties been arrested similarly? Whether true or not, would not they scream "Political Suppression!"? We need some of that outrage.
 
204Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 14:43
Come on Zen. you know I'm with you on legalizaton; but when the central tenet of your political party is the violation of the law, when you advocate and brag about violating he law, and when your daughter is at school describing a major criminal activity -it's hardly "political suppression" when you get busted. No doubt, the lady was made an example of - but that's the price, I think, for advocating the what is currently criminal activity and flaunting the law in a public way.
 
205Baldwin
      ID: 560191911
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 14:46
Less than a gram is a major criminal activity?
 
206sarge33rd
      ID: 2014486
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 14:53
why inject the word 'major" Baldwin, unless it is to inflame? The term does not appear in the artcile, and it does not appear in MBJ's post.
 
207Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 14:55
The daughter was talking about cultivation, Baldwin. Please keep up.
 
208Baldwin
      ID: 560191911
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 15:15
Sorry, was half packing/half trying to keep up and so didn't have time to read the link.
 
209katietx
      ID: 37002410
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 16:15
Katie SZ, perhaps a change in location is in your future?

Just because the Father land has some F*ed up values we have to pick up and move?

In your America Katie should we all have moved just because we thought blacks should have been allowed to use the same water fountain as whites? That was America 40 years ago.

Today if we are against abortion should we have to leave the country?

If we believe we should be able to pray in schools should we leave the country?

If we want to smoke in restaurants should we leave the country?


Unfortunately, I neglected to put a ";-)" behind my post. Since it was directly after Baldwin's, I felt maybe some humor came through. Evidently not.

Of course I do not subscribe to the above situations. How totally inane, riduculous and above the level of civility.

I am inundated daily by TV, radio, billboards, newspaper ads, pop-ups and the public in general to quit smoking. My smoking is worse than your drug using??????? I'd love, absolutely love, to hear a comprehensive argument on that subject.

Come on Zen. you know I'm with you on legalizaton; but when the central tenet of your political party is the violation of the law, when you advocate and brag about violating he law, and when your daughter is at school describing a major criminal activity -it's hardly "political suppression" when you get busted. No doubt, the lady was made an example of - but that's the price, I think, for advocating the what is currently criminal activity and flaunting the law in a public way?

This is exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post. Evidently, I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
 
210Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 16:41
I think I agree with Zen on this one, based on the facts of the news story. Cops shouldn't be citing letters to the editor advocating legal change as grounds for a search warrant (I'm assuming the letter didn't say, "I myself run a very profitable growing operation, and...'. And how do a kindergarden kid's stories get called to the attention of the police, anyway?

Though Zen is wrong about (continental) Europe. Harassment of leaders of minor parties is part of the game there, and if the state is after you, they don't even need as much grounds as in that story to go after you.

Toral
 
211Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 55343019
      Fri, Feb 13, 2004, 20:06
when your daughter is at school describing a major criminal activity... No doubt, the lady was made an example of - but that's the price, I think, for advocating the what is currently criminal activity and flaunting the law in a public way.

First off, I think the judge rubberstamped the search warrant. A kindergardner (for fu*k's sake!) didn't say, "My parents have a huge grow-op in our house", she simply infers that there are or has been illegal leaves in her house. That alone should not propell the State's interest in searching her house past her fourth amendment right to be free of unreasonable searches.

Okay, you got the warrant, you go to her house and it becomes apparant that there is no grow-op like you feared. To arrest her simply because she had half of a used joint in an ashtray is insulting. Why can't the cops leave well enough alone? You know, I doubt the judge would have granted a search warrant if a police informant told the cops that she had .87 grams of cannabis at home. Upon realizing there was no grow-op, I have to believe that most police would have looked the other way at her piddly joint much like cops in the Twenties didn't bust everyone who had half of a stale beer on their table.

The way alcohol prohibition was ended was after reasonable people got tired of lying. Lying that alcohol is inherently evil. That no good person should ever inbibe.

The way marijuana prohibition will end is the same. The only way to rebuff the drug war propaganda is to say, "Hey, I smoke pot, as do many of my friends and our neighbors and the world is not going to end admitting to this obvious fact." To arrest someone using their public advocacy for ending injustice is an injustice in and of itself.

PS: I caught the silent ;) at the end of Katietx's post 192. Don't think I'll move, but would love to visit.
 
212nerveclinic
      ID: 38145910
      Sat, Feb 14, 2004, 00:24
Sarge When it comes to drug use/addiction, I for one am satisifed that it has been shown to impose hugely detrimental costs upon the society.

PUHLEEEEEZE...we are talking about reefer not drugs, you must be refering to alchohal.

Why would we tell someone to leave the country just because they want to load up a bowl?

I do assume Katie was kidding though.
 
213nerveclinic
      ID: 38145910
      Sat, Feb 14, 2004, 00:28
KAtie Unfortunately, I neglected to put a ";-)" behind my post. Since it was directly after Baldwin's, I felt maybe some humor came through. Evidently not.

Of course I do not subscribe to the above situations. How totally inane, riduculous and above the level of civility.


Katie now that I know you were kidding I wish to revoke the billgerant and bi*tchy tone of voice I used in my rebuttel...smile face accepted...8-)
 
214nerveclinic
      ID: 38145910
      Sat, Feb 14, 2004, 00:36
Sarge you know as well as I that your friend didn't die from "bad pot" he died because some lunitic laced it with something else.

In the 30 years or so I have known about the stuff I have never heard of anyone dieing from smoking marijuana as in OD.

I suspect it may have similiar probs as cigarettes over a long time period and eating huge amounts has killed a couple of people I think but I don't buy that your friend just smoked pot by itself and it killed him.
 
215sarge33rd
      ID: 2014486
      Sat, Feb 14, 2004, 08:28
re post 200 NC...it wasnt pot, it was acid...LSD. And yes, it wasnt the drug itself, but whatever it was laced with, that killed him.
 
216Seattle Zen
      ID: 17231110
      Fri, Mar 12, 2004, 14:19
NORML has psychics working for them and what they forsee is not pretty.

Federal Bill Introduced Ordering States To Pass Mandatory Minimum Penalties For "Drugged Driving"

November 4, 2004 - Washington, DC, USA

Federal legislation was introduced this week to withhold highway funding from state legislatures that do not pass laws enacting mandatory minimum penalties for anyone convicted of driving under the influence of illegal drugs. The bill, H.R. 3907, comes two weeks after panelists at a conference co-sponsored by the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP) called on federal officials to develop "uniform standards" and "model legislation" to encourage states to enact and/or modify their DUID (driving under the influence of drugs) laws.

Ten states (Arizona, Georgia, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Utah, and Wisconsin) have enacted so-called "zero tolerance" per se laws which make it a criminal offense to operate a motor vehicle while having a drug or drug metabolite in one's body or bodily fluids - even if the driver's ability to drive is not impaired. Under such statutes, individuals can be found guilty of violating the law if the driver is found to have been operating a motor vehicle with any amount of a prohibited substance present in their bodily fluids, including urine - where metabolites may remain detectable for days after past use. For marijuana, inactive metabolites are identifiable in the urine for several days and sometimes weeks after its use.

NORML Executive Director Keith Stroup worries that such a mandate will be used to coerce state legislatures to universally adopt "zero tolerance" per se laws, which he called unfair and bad public policy. "While driving impaired by marijuana or other illicit and licit drugs is never acceptable, neither is it acceptable to treat sober drivers as if they are impaired simply because low levels of inactive marijuana metabolites may be detectable in their bodily fluids," he said. "These 'zero tolerance' laws are neither a safe nor sensible way to identify impaired drivers; they are an attempt to misuse the traffic safety laws to identify and prosecute marijuana smokers per se."

The Walsh Group: Longing for the day that we can manditorially test every citizen for marijuana use and jail all of those potheads.

This is just a terrible idea. Zero Tolerance laws are unconstitutional in my mind, a violation of the Fourth Am. prohibition against illegal search and seizures. Many states allow roadside sobriety checkpoints (not WA, however) to allow the police to see if anyone is intoxicated. What's to stop the police from making everyone take a piss test right there to see if they test positive for any drug, thus violating the Zero Tolerance? Regular cannabis smokers can test positive as much as four weeks of abstention. Yes, bone sober for four weeks and you could be found guilty of driving while under the influence of drugs. Refusal to take the test leads to harsher penalties. When will this end?
 
217Tranceformer
      ID: 47833511
      Sat, Mar 13, 2004, 17:52
Marijuana is a gateway drug only because it is illegal. If it were not illegal, it would be considered the same as alcohol.

The entire premise of a gateway drug is that once the user experiences it, they become more open to other substances. From this perspective, marijuana is equal to alcohol. Cigarettes are slightly different because they only give a "buzz" and do not change one's mind or opinion drastically.

The other way it is a gateway drug is because it is the first illegal substance that one might come in contact with. Once a person establishes links and begins to feel comfortable with using something that is illegal and spending a portion of their income on this recreational activity, other drugs become more easily obtainable and used, with less moral reservation. If this is the gateway drug theory, then wouldn't it be prudent to make marijuana,(with its benign effects) legal, so that other "harder" drugs would become the gateway drug (increased barrier to entry)? There are probably a large portion of "gateway" users who initially use marijuana because it is not "physically" addictive. If the gateway were a stronger drug, then perhaps these users would never get started in using illegal drugs. Also, if something like marijuana were legal, many people who use harder drugs would probably just stop at getting stoned. The difference between alcohol and marijuana as a mind altering chemical is that i've never seen anyone be violent on marijuana, and if you get too stoned, you get too paranoid to drive anyways.

I would like to see statistics on harder drug use in the netherlands after legalization. Even if harder use did not change, this could be due to the much more tolerant dutch government.

Marijuana has effects as a antidepressant and a pain reliever without addictive elements, unlike other pharmaceuticals, many of which are opiate based. But the tobacco and pharmaceutical companies stand to lose the most if pot were legalized, and they have some of the most substantial lobbies on Capitol Hill.

As it stands, we are not even allowed to conduct research experiments on marijuana, but we can offer other drugs to dependents.

Mandatory drug laws for trafficking are from the 80s.

Second hand smoke from cigarettes poses a health risk. If one smokes pot at home, without any one around, there is no risk.

 
218Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Sat, Mar 13, 2004, 19:22
Zero tolerance for illegal drugs? So if a soccer mom or Rush Limbaugh is pulled over and they're under the influence of oxycontin or percodan, they're exempt, even though opiates affect reflexes more than marijuana?
There's no way opiate based prescription drugs, whether acquired legally or otherwise, should be exempt while marijuana users are subject to fines and jail. The hypocrisy is stunning. Cops will target suspected potheads, while the more dangerous prescription drug abusers will be winding their way from the mall to suburbia in a bullet-proof stupor of false bravado.
 
219Tranceformer
      ID: 47833511
      Sat, Mar 13, 2004, 19:37
it depends on if they have a prescription.

they can still be cited for driving under the influence.

the laws are mandatory sentences if caught with a certain amount of substances.

yes, difference like said above, there are patents on pharmaceuticals, no patent on pot.

standing law needs movement for change. lobbying by rich companies blocks movement.



 
220Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 14826271
      Mon, Apr 19, 2004, 16:51
The History of the Non-Medical Use of Drugs in the United States

If we get together here in the year 2005, I will bet you that it is as likely as not that the possession of marijuana may not be criminal in this state. But the manufacture, sale, and possession of tobacco will be, and why? Because we love this idea of prohibitions, we can't live without them. They are our very favorite thing because we know how to solve difficult, social, economic, and medical problems -- a new criminal law with harsher penalties in every category for everybody.
 
221Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:44
No prosecution for medical marijuana
 
222Seattle Zen
      ID: 53252259
      Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 10:52
You've got to wonder what the Feds are smoking

The only person who still gets excited over marijuana these days seems to be U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft. He's clearly solved the terrorism problem, so he has the spare time and resources to go after patients and priests who grow pot — and regular guys who grow pot in their backyards, like Travis Paulson of Lebanon, Ore.

Finally, a few nice words for states' rights. Every state is allowed to monitor and tax the sale of alcoholic beverages. The same should apply to marijuana, argues the Marijuana Policy Project. This group wants pot regulated like alcohol — which means it would not be plopped on the candy counter next to the Snickers bars. If the people in Washington state want marijuana legalized and the people in Mississippi don't, then fine. Let each state plot its own course.
 
223Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 11:41
Ah yes. I fondly remember the good old days when ostensible conservatives like Ashcroft and Bush were in favor of states rights and old fashioned Federalism.
 
224Seattle Zen
      ID: 53252259
      Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 13:09
BTW, I thought I knew everything there was to know about marijuana's legal history, but the story you linked in post 220 is yet another example of why I continue to read these boards.

Where, oh where, in this story, are we going to find an expert witness? Here it comes -- sure enough -- the guy from Temple University -- the guy with the dogs. I promise you, you are not going to believe this.

In the most famous of these trials, what happened was two women jumped on a Newark, New Jersey bus and shot and killed and robbed the bus driver. They put on the marijuana insanity defense. The defense called the pharmacologist, and of course, you know how to do this now, you put the expert on, you say "Doctor, did you do all of this experimentation and so on?" You qualify your expert. "Did you write all about it?" "Yes, and I did the dogs" and now he is an expert. Now you ask him what? You ask the doctor "What have you done with the drug?" And he said, and I quote, "I've experimented with the dogs, I have written something about it and" -- are you ready -- "I have used the drug myself."

What do you ask him next? "Doctor, when you used the drug, what happened?"

With all the press present at this flamboyant murder trial in Newark New Jersey, in 1938, the pharmacologist said, and I quote, in response to the question "When you used the drug, what happened?", his exact response was: "After two puffs on a marijuana cigarette, I was turned into a bat."
 
225Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 13:16
SZ 224 -- Yes, the link is great. I first found it from this forum ( in this thread ) from about 3 years ago (see post 96 where Biliruben directly links to the site)

It's great that MBJ brought it up again, but I hope that all that MJ hasn't ruined your longer-term memory, SZ.
 
226Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 13:18
(oops, that was post 95 from biliruben ... and I don't smoke MJ, so I have no excuse)
 
227Seattle Zen
      ID: 53252259
      Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 10:19
Make Peace with Pot

Excellent NY Times editorial

This is your government on drugs



This article was written by my friend from law school, Bill McColl, and it is so well written that I wanted to share it.
 
228Seattle Zen
      ID: 53252259
      Mon, May 24, 2004, 14:58
Russia decriminalizes personal drug use.

As of today, Russian drug users and people in possession of small amounts of illegal drugs no longer face any jail time.

The radical change in Russian drug policy came as part of sweeping reforms of the criminal code, which also include the strengthening of citizens' protections when facing criminal charges. But the real impetus for the change probably lies in the country's festering, overcrowded, and disease-filled prison system. With some 850,000 prisoners, Russia is second only to the United States in the number and percentage of its people it imprisons, and an estimated 200,000 to 300,000 of them are incarcerated on drug charges.

Someday we'll catch on, right?
 
229Baldwin
      ID: 5544766
      Sat, Jun 26, 2004, 08:59
Check out this poll. [link only good for one day]

With this little support among the fiercely conservative it should make you wonder how they manage to keep it going. It's surely not the left keeping it going. Is it not simply the 'mainstream' purveyers of the zeitgeist who keep it going out of inertia and their own desire that it be so?
 
230Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Wed, Nov 17, 2004, 16:42
25 year old man gets 55 years for selling pot

A federal judge on Tuesday reluctantly sentenced a Utah music producer to a mandatory 55 years in prison, then urged President Bush to commute the term to a more just punishment.
U.S. District Judge Paul Cassell said federal minimum mandatory sentencing laws left him no choice but to impose what he called an "unjust and cruel and even irrational" prison term on Weldon Angelos, 25.
Angelos will be 80 years old before he is freed. He did not speak at the sentencing.

Angelos had a clean record before his conviction except for a minor nonviolent juvenile offense, according to the friend-of-the-court brief. It notes he originally was charged with only one count of possession of a firearm in furtherance of drug trafficking.

Cassell in February asked attorneys in the case to submit briefs exploring the constitutionality of the stiff term mandated for Angelos. He pointed out then, and at Tuesday's sentencing, that aircraft hijackers, child rapists and murderers serve shorter mandatory terms for their crimes.
The judge also surveyed jurors in the case, who heard how Angelos sold marijuana from his Salt Lake City apartment - where he also kept a gun, sometimes strapped to his ankle - and the nine who responded favored a sentence of 15 to 18 years.
 
231The Splinter
      ID: 91025176
      Wed, Nov 17, 2004, 19:30
Legalize Marijuana Now
 
232Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Fri, Mar 04, 2005, 10:59
King County Bar Association issues huge study urging the State of Washington to take control over the regulation of drugs from the Feds by "regulating and controlling".

The state should take the control of drugs away from gangs and street dealers -- manufacturing them and distributing them to addicts instead of locking up users and letting the black market thrive, according to the King County Bar Association.

Proponents of the controversial idea, outlined in a report released yesterday, say continuing to deal with drug addiction as a crime instead of a medical problem is not only expensive, it simply doesn't work.

They say letting the state regulate now-illegal drugs would curb all kinds of problems in society that the so-called war on drugs has failed to address, including gang violence, petty crime and drug use by kids.


I'm good friends with Roger Goodman, who has served as a full time employee of the KCBA for over two years simply to organize a group of people to produce this report. Listen up, DC, we are taking our drug laws back.
 
233sarge33rd
      ID: 28257311
      Fri, Mar 04, 2005, 14:20
not if our Rep Congress has anything to say SZ.

BTW, anybody ever hear what the upshot was over Congress' attempt to employ the Commerce Clause vs CA Drug Laws?
 
234Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Mar 04, 2005, 14:52
That decision hasn't been issued yet, sarge.

Not to wake you from your fantasy, but it was a Democratic congress that passed our draconian MJ laws. (I'm sure the Republicans would have, had they been in control). Our misguided drug laws are a problem that crosses party lines.
 
235Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Fri, Mar 04, 2005, 15:39
You mean to say that it was a Dem congress that classified MJ as a sched 1?
 
236sarge33rd
      ID: 45229215
      Fri, Mar 04, 2005, 16:27
The laws are indeed Draconian. However it is a Rep Congress trying to hide behind the CC in an effort to overturn the CA reforms.
 
237biliruben
      ID: 500432513
      Fri, Mar 04, 2005, 16:38
More precisely, it's the Justice Department, headed by a republican appointee, who are trying to contort the commerce clause to prosecute users so as to subvert the will of the State of California.

Feel free to speculate on motivation. Probably variously: Morality, greed, control, simple-mindedness, making ignorant constituants happy... blah blah blah.
 
238Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Fri, Mar 04, 2005, 17:48
Re - 235. Yes, Congress was Democratic back when the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 was passed.
 
239Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, May 02, 2005, 16:57
Hungarians protesting their draconian drug laws.

In Civil Obedience Campaign, Hungarian Drug Users Turn Themselves In

For the past month, drug users and former drug users have been giving Hungarian police fits as they march up to police stations and turn themselves in, demanding to be charged as violators of the country's repressive -- by European standards -- drug laws, according to reports from participants and organizers. The campaign has managed to put drug reform in the media spotlight just as a Hungarian parliamentary committee examining the subject is getting underway.

Drug users just want to be respected and left alone, said Juhasz. "We don't believe in forced treatment and medicalization," he said. "We would like to show that we want to live as law-abiding citizens."

How do you say, "Damn straight, Brother!" in Hungarian?
 
240Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 00:14
From Hungary to Rutgers (that's New Jersey, m'kay)

The Family that partakes together, stays together, man.

On a sunny mid-semester day, Kevin's parents pulled up in front of the small New Brunswick house that he shares with five other University students. As his parents got out of the car, Kevin ran downstairs to greet them each with a hug. His parents followed him upstairs to his room, saying hello to his friends sitting in the living room. They engaged in family chit chat as Kevin, who asked for his real name to be withheld, slowly closed the door to his room. His parents paid no attention as he took out a small digital scale to weigh about a gram of dry marijuana leaves and placed it in a small plastic bag. He handed it to his parents without a second thought. He usually charges other students for the illegal plant but not his parents. This is not an unusual event for Kevin's family. For the past couple years, every member of his family uses marijuana frequently, and it's often an activity that brings them closer together.
 
241Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 15:23
I wonder if they let the kids smoke when they were little?

Some studies are pointing toward a relationship between marijuana use in kids under 12 and mental illness later in life.

In Tuesday's study, 21 percent of people who reported first using marijuana before age 12 also reported that they later went on to develop signs or symptoms of a serious mental illness. Those who said they used the drug only after age 18 had a 10.5 percent chance of reporting similar problems.

Double your chances of mental illness! Wow, how else can you do that and have fun at the same time?

...Paul P. Casadonte, MD, a psychiatrist and associate clinical professor at New York University... warns that Tuesday's study of early marijuana use does not necessarily prove that smoking at a young age leads directly to later illness. "We do know that the younger you start, the more likely that there's something mentally wrong with you to begin with. Marijuana has more of an addiction potential than most people want to believe," he says. "But basically we just don't have the science" to claim a causal link with mental illness. He suggests that such claims by... administration officials were intended to further the Bush administration's efforts to quell young peoples' marijuana use.

Well, at least they printed both sides of the story.

My favorite part:"The evidence is collectively indicating that there is a causal connection," says Neil McKeganey, PhD, professor of drug misuse at the University of Glasgow in Scotland.

Professor of drug misuse? I'll bet there's a waiting list for his courses.
 
242Mark L
      ID: 133521414
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 15:31
I think I was McKeganey's research assistant when I was an undergrad.
 
243Toral
      ID: 14263120
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 15:37
Course it could be that people who would develop mental illness were self-medicating early. Seems more likely to me than a causal marijuana --> mental illness connexion.

Toral
 
244Toral
      ID: 14263120
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 15:47
Could also be those young users gravitated towards harder drugs, which can blow out your mind later. Was use of the mind-blowing stuff examined in the study? Social scientists should weigh in on this, but my experience is that the grass users young were more likely to be led on, by the same people they started grass with, to harder stuff which can be harmful.

Part of the reason I instinctively despise pro-drug people, even when I can agree with some of their arguments (e.g., for MJ decriminalization), I had some friends who blew their minds out on the harder stuff, and I'll never forgive the pro-MJ advocates of that day (unless they repent, of course).

Toral
 
245Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 19:32
Agree with post 243

Which drugs did your friends minds get "blown" on? What actually happened?
 
246Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 21:45
The "War on Drugs has become the "War on Marijuana" and it ain't workin'.

The focus of the drug war in the United States has shifted significantly over the past decade from hard drugs to marijuana, which now accounts for nearly half of all drug arrests nationwide, according to an analysis of federal crime statistics released yesterday. The study of FBI data by a Washington-based think tank, the Sentencing Project, found that the proportion of heroin and cocaine cases plummeted from 55 percent of all drug arrests in 1992 to less than 30 percent 10 years later. During the same period, marijuana arrests rose from 28 percent of the total to 45 percent.

The new statistics come amid signs of a renewed debate in political circles over the efficacy of U.S. drug policies, which have received less attention recently amid historically low crime rates and a focus on terrorism since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, for example, has formed a national committee to oversee prosecution of violent drug gangs and has vowed to focus more resources on the fight against methamphetamine manufacturers and other drug traffickers. But increasingly, some experts have begun to argue that the U.S. drug war, which costs an estimated $35 billion a year, has had a minimal impact on consumption of illicit substances. The conservative American Enterprise Institute published a report in March titled "Are We Losing the War on Drugs?" Its authors argue that, among other things, "criminal punishment of marijuana use does not appear to be justified." The study released yesterday by the Sentencing Project found that arrests for marijuana account for nearly all of the increase in drug arrests seen during the 1990s. The report also found that one in four people in state prisons for marijuana offenses can be classified as a "low-level offender," and it estimated that $4 billion a year is spent on arresting and prosecuting marijuana crimes.
 
247Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 09:41
As a life-long liberal, I'm not surprised to have somehow missed the National Review's mind-altering assessment of the War on Drugs. But I am surprised to find myself in 100% agreement with it.

Reading the entirety of the link provided in Bili's post (32), I am struck by its compelling logic.
If you haven't done so already, PLEASE read it through to the end.

What we're dealing with here is a moral crusade that has had absolutely NO effect on reducing drug usage. If the point of it all is to reduce usage (especially among children) why on earth wouldn't we follow the anti-smoking model, which has been remarkably successful in reducing smoking over the past decade or so.

Don



 
248Matt S
      ID: 55381912
      Fri, May 20, 2005, 15:10
I have issues with the Marijuana-> Mental problems argument. From my experience, friends that have become heavy marijuana smokers are miraculously the same friends that had problems as a child (ADD, etc). Most of which were put on ritalin from a young age and used all through high school.

ALL 5 of my heavy smoking friends were users of ritalin in school. So even if these guys develop mental health problems in the future, is it the Ritalin or the MJ that was the catylist?
 
249biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, May 20, 2005, 15:16
I'm of the opinion that it is often difficult determining temporality: did the drug/alcohol cause the problems or did the problems initiate some attempt at self-medication?

Probably some of both, with those with existing mental health problems the drug sometimes helping, sometimes exasterbating the mental health issues.

All I know for sure is the prison wouldn't help in either situation.
 
250Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Fri, May 20, 2005, 15:53
I would suggest an additional dimension to 248: medicalization. We are teaching our youngsters that drugs can solve their behavioral problems. Also implicitly, we are teaching that very powerful drugs can be used safely.

It is not surprising that a culture that encourages prescription drug use also tends to have illicit drug use.

Therefore, those with propensities toward problems will tend to use drugs (of all sorts), compounding the identification dilemma. I think that may be what BR is getting at ... the problem could be inherent or caused by external forces, it could be caused by ritilin, or it could be caused by marijuana ... or, lastly, a more fatalistic culture might say that the problems just happened.
 
251Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Fri, May 20, 2005, 21:27
What about the main issue here -- that we're wasting an incredible amount of our human and financial resources on a battle that can't be won the way we're going about it?

What about the idea that legalization of drugs would follow the same model as the legalization of alcohol after prohibition?

What NR published above was an incisive analysis by some of our most brilliant minds, all of whom seemed to agree that this "war" is unwinnable.
Why are we so unwilling to consider that, just maybe, we got it wrong?


Don
 
252biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, May 20, 2005, 21:33
Fortunatly, I think most folks on this board, with the exception of the most obtuse, are willing to consider that we aren't fighting the war on drugs probably, or better yet - we shouldn't be fighting a "War" against our own people at all.

Unfortunately, we here are not members of congress or the administration.
 
253Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sat, May 21, 2005, 06:53
Why are we so unwilling to consider that, just maybe, we got it wrong?

1) People aren't willing to bet their kids future on the proposition that we'd be better off legalizing. "As long as my kid is kept from drugs as much as possible who cares about the drug war casualties".

2) The people who pull the strings behind the scenes, sell the drugs and want the prices kept high, and want to be able to put their business competitors in jail.
 
254Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Sat, May 21, 2005, 09:36
Baldwin: Please read the NR analysis and then tell me that your still believe point (1) in your post.

Don
 
255Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Sat, May 21, 2005, 10:09
The NR link in post 32 doesn't work.
 
256Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sat, May 21, 2005, 12:44
SITS

I didn't say I neccessarily believe it, tho I sypathize with the feeling. I do believe that is the public consensus that supports the alleged 'WoT'.
 
257Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Sat, May 21, 2005, 20:03
MITH:

I just checked and you're right. All I can tell you is that it worked well a few days ago. Can't remember being as impressed with anything else I've read in the last few years. I hope you find a way to access it.

Don
 
258rockafellerskank
      ID: 180352016
      Thu, May 26, 2005, 20:38
Ok, this is just ridiculous.

Snitch or go to jail bill

The bill provides for a two year jail sentence if you observe or come across information about drug distribution near colleges and do not report it to authorities within 24 hours and provide full assistance investigating, apprehending, and prosecuting those involved.

I don't condone drug use. I wouldn't use drugs myself. Not out of a morale concern, actually, but out of fear of even a minor a minor arrest would cost me my job..... but I ain't gonna snitch, either.
 
259Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Fri, May 27, 2005, 00:18
Officer, believe me, my internal dialog was so dang interesting that I wasn't remotely paying attention to that bale that dropped from that plane and almost struck my car.
 
260Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 11:48
Court Rules Against Pot for Sick People

digusting.

perhaps we oughta use the DeLay method, and "take action" against these activist judges, eh?
 
261biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 12:10
Scalia a federalist only when it suits him:

Justice Scalia concurred, offering a somewhat more textual grounding for the same result. According to Justice Scalia, the key was that Congress's ban on even intrastate possession was "necessary" and "proper" as a way to regulate interstate commerce:

[T]he authority to enact laws necessary and proper for the regulation of interstate commerce is not limited to laws governing intrastate activities that substantially affect interstate commerce. Where necessary to make a regulation of interstate commerce effective, Congress may regulate even those intrastate activities that do not themselves substantially affect interstate commerce.

Scalia continued:

That simple possession is a noneconomic activity is immaterial to whether it can be prohibited as a necessary part of a larger regulation. Rather, CongressÂ’s authority to enact all of these prohibitions of intrastate controlled-substance activities depends only upon whether they are appropriate means of achieving the legitimate end of eradicating Schedule I substances from interstate commerce.
By this measure, I think the regulation must be sustained. Not only is it impossible to distinguish “controlled substances manufactured and distributed intrastate” from controlled substances manufactured and distributed interstate,” but it hardly makes sense to speak in such terms. Drugs like marijuana are fungible commodities. As the Court explains, marijuana that is grown at home and possessed for personal use is never more than an instant from the interstate market— . . . .
 
262Perm Dude
      ID: 165939
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 12:17
Yikes! Scalia concurred because stuff you grow for yourself can be sold if you wanted to? Talk about being unable to distinguish!

Congress has the authority to regulate interstate commerce. That is, they have the authority to regulate the sale of goods and services across state lines. Scalia is saying that they now have the authority to regulate goods and services not sold across state lines so long as the State can prove that there might exist someone in another state who would pay for your goods or services, regardless of whether the goods or services are actually in the marketplace.
 
263Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 12:58
Where does that leave homemade beer and wine?
How about the guacamole you make from the avacado tree in your front yard, or the peach preserves from the peach tree? Etc., etc.
 
264sarge33rd
      ID: 344362512
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 13:00
re 260:

In the court's main decision, Stevens raised concerns about abuse of marijuana laws. "Our cases have taught us that there are some unscrupulous physicians who overprescribe when it is sufficiently profitable to do so," he said.

Did Stevens not listen?????


Under the Constitution, Congress may pass laws regulating a state's economic activity so long as it involves "interstate commerce" that crosses state borders. The California marijuana in question was homegrown, distributed to patients without charge and without crossing state lines. (emphasis added)

So where is the "sufficient profit" that would drive doctors to improperly make this prescription??????

 
265Toral
      ID: 53422511
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 13:04
Tree 260

Good idea. Get at it. The liberal bloc all voted against medical marijuana.

The dissenters were Rehnquist, Thomas and O'Connor.

Toral
 
266sarge33rd
      ID: 344362512
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 13:07
re 263;

in its strictest sense....this ruling means you MUST destroy your veggie garden, or face prosecution for violation of interstate commerce laws.
 
267Toral
      ID: 53422511
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 13:26
262 and 266: For better or worse that's been the law since Wickard in 1942, and the majority decided to follow it.

Toral
 
268sarge33rd
      ID: 344362512
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 13:33
if thats true Toral, how is it that Farmers Markets are so widespread? If it has indeed been illegal for 6+ teras to grow your own veggies, no way I can see corporate America (del monte et al) not persuing their right to terminate home-grown produce and thus cutting into their interstate market share.
 
269sarge33rd
      ID: 344362512
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 13:34
damn lousy typing.....illegal for 60+ years......
 
270Toral
      ID: 53422511
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 13:39
To clarify, it's not illegal, but it could be made illegal if Congress decided to legislate a vegetable cultivaton and marketing plan and the home-grown veggie garden or farmer;s market activity went againt the rules of the law Congress passed.

Toral
 
271Perm Dude
      ID: 165939
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 13:48
Wickard was about wheat, saying that wheat grown for your own consumption was an economic activity because it replaced wheat you would have bought elsewhere (the implication in Wickard was that the wheat would come from out-of-state). SCOTUS is saying essentially that if you don't grow your own pot then you'll buy it somewhere else, so they can stop you.

Home-grown pot never enters the market, however, and doesn't affect it. And during oral arguments Scalia spoke about Wickard not applying in this case (Wickard was meant to stimulate commerce, not end it)

I was pleased to see Thomas continue what he started in Lopez, in arguing a firmer states rights platform (in Lopez he argued that activities should actually be interstate to fall under the Commerce Clause, rather than be part of a large aggregate effect on interstate commerce).
 
272Toral
      ID: 53422511
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 13:53
Justice Thomas's dissent should go over well here.
JUSTICE THOMAS, dissenting.
Respondents Diane Monson and Angel Raich use mari-
juana that has never been bought or sold, that has never crossed state lines, and that has had no demonstrable effect on the national market for marijuana. If Congress can regulate this under the Commerce Clause, then it can regulate virtually anythingŠand the Federal Government
is no longer one of limited and enumerated powers.

I
Respondents™ local cultivation and consumption of mari-juana is not ioCommerce . . . among the several States.lc U. S. Const., Art. I, §8, cl. 3. By holding that Congress may regulate activity that is neither interstate nor com-merce under the Interstate Commerce Clause, the Court
abandons any attempt to enforce the Constitution™s limits on federal power.
(Quote looks funny when cut&paste from the pdf document, but it's right at the start of the decision, linked above.)

Clarence for Chief Justice?

Toral
 
273biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 13:58
Good for Clarence.
 
274biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 14:12
To clarify, I'm not a federalist, but consistency is a trait I appreciate in a judge.
 
275sarge33rd
      ID: 344362512
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 14:30
Not that it matters what my opinion is, but I think Thomas hit the nail on the head here. This marijuana is NOT a part of the interstate market for marijuana. This is NOT interstate commerce. To rule that it is, thus rendering personal production for medicinal purposes illegal, renders my growing my own tomatoes as illegal, or green beans, or peas, corn, watermelon, etc etc etc. In fact, flower gardens will have to go away, for to grow your own, is to depriver FTD of their fullest possible share of the interstate commerce on florals. DYI home projects will have to cease, since building your own deck, deprives a contractor who might have to cross state lines to get t o you, from earning a fair share of that market. Cant paint your own home either. Wouldnt want to infringe upon the incomes of those who do so professionally. Type your own letters? Not anymore. Hire a professional typist or face the wrath of our whacko congress.
 
276biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 14:41
Those things would only be illegal if US Congress passed laws saying they were, Sarge.

Just because they can, doesn't mean they will. Of course, it doesn't mean they won't either.
 
277biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 15:37
How did you cut and paste from a pdf, Toral?

Damn Adobe. Steal my view and make c&p impossible w/o their $500 product.
 
278Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 15:41
In that file there's a "select text" button. Hit it and a cursor appears.
 
279Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 15:57
I was initially furious at Scalia; I still disagree, but I do think his very narrow concurrence isn't worthless. Essentially, from what I have read so far, I think he's arguing that if Congress has the right to regulate interstate commerce, then to at least a limited extent they have to have the right to regulate that which directly affects it. Dunno; I'm still trying to noodle my way around his concurrence. To my untrained eye, he's trying to create an entirely new standard here ... one that gives the feds the power to regulate medical marijuana, but not other, supposedly more tenuous, connections. This may be a political necessity, but as a legal doctrine, unless I'm misreading something, it stinks.

How the court interprets the power to regulate that which is traded to be the power to regulate that which is not traded is something that my weak intellect is still having difficulty with.

Regardless, Thomas' position is the one I appreciate the most. That doesn't say much. O'Connor and Rhenquist are also trying to walk a political line. As to the Liberal Bloc, the majority opinion has thusfar just revolted me; they appear to be toeing the big gov't, New Deal line.

All in all, however, I am sad to say that I think Bernstein from the Conspiracy had it right: this opinion proves that the SCOTUS is perhaps more of a pure political beast than philosophical or legal.

The law has become complex enough now that justices can scurry behind whatever federalist/non-federalist precedent they want to uphold their apriori biases.

I see little good coming out of all of this, and it is a quite depressing day.

O'Conner and Rhenquist will be retiring soon. The likelihood of confirming a Thomas-like justice with 44 Democratic senators on the Hill is basically as high as the survival probability of a snowball sunbathing on a south Florida beach.

This 6-3 decision will quickly be converted to 8-1; the only justices that can be confirmed at this point seem to be conservative justices rather than libertarian ones ... and those only because they have a vehement and zealous block behind them. Dunno. I'm rather depressed at the moment and thus my judgment may be impaired beyond normal.
 
280Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 16:03
How the court interprets the power to regulate that which is traded to be the power to regulate that which is not traded is something that my weak intellect is still having difficulty with.

Drat. That's a line I'm working on. But it isn't technically right. Maybe this:

My weak intellect has difficulty understanding how the court transforms the power to regulate that which is desired to be traded into the power to regular that which is desired to not be traded.
 
281Perm Dude
      ID: 165939
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 16:12
I'm with you, Madman. The definition of "commerce" has been extended so far as to now include "non-commerce."
 
282biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 16:19
Bernstein's last 2 points:

I thought these widened the perspective nicely.

(4) There are essentially two strategies for those who are concerned with civil liberties for limiting the government's ability to abuse the rights of the public. One is the standard ACLU strategy of being a liberal supporter of broad government power, and then insisting that the government respect individual rights, especially constitutional rights, when using that power. The other strategy, followed by libertarians, is to try to limit the government's general power to begin with because the government cannot abuse power it does not have. The drug war provides a least one example of the superiority of the libertarian strategy. The drug war has run roughshod over the civil libertarian accomplishments of the Warren Court, leading to a weakening to various degrees of the First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth amendments, not to mention a huge increase in the prison population, and the denial of the basic right to use relatively innocuous recreational drugs, even for medicinal or health purposes. Far better to have denied the federal government the power to regulate intrastate use of and sale of drugs to begin with, as, I recall, Justice Van Devanter advocated on Commerce Clause grounds way back in the "dark ages" of the 1920's.

(5) I was both amused and angered by Justice Stevens's paean to the democratic process as the appropriate avenue of relief for advocates of medical marijuana at the end of his opinion. Every Justice who joined Stevens's opinion voted to prohibit states from regulating homosexual sex in Lawrence and [if they were on the Court at the time] voted to limit the government's power to regulate abortion in Casey. Why was the democratic process not the appropriate avenue of relief for the victims of overzealous government regulation in those cases? It seems we do to some extent live under a system where the personal preferences of the Justices, having nothing to do with the history, text, or logic of the Constitution, dictate when the Supreme Court will or will not intervene to overturn particular regulations.


This is just the beginning. Bring on the Justices of the Christian God! JCG yeah you know me. Pray openly and loudly or founder in the lower depths of the justice system.
 
283Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 16:29
PD -- I really don't understand how they get from "A" to "not A".

Put simply, from what I can gather, Wickard asserts that you can regulate "not A" (wheat not sold) because under some hypothetical, the farmer could change his mind, and turn "not A" into "A" (wheat sold).

Taken literally, then, I don't see why the government couldn't arrest me; afterall, by refusing to buy drugs ("not A"), I am depressing demand, driving prices lower and thereby interfering with the gov't's regulatory goal of higher drug prices (i.e., higher profits to drug traffickers). If their logic works for supply-side pecuniary externalities, I don't see why it doesn't hold on the demand side, as well.

Maybe the key is that the government actually doesn't have a regulatory goal for the market price. But if that is the case, then Wickard falls apart -- at least as precedent for Raich -- even before you get to this silly argument.
 
284biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 16:34
...I don't see why the government couldn't arrest me; afterall, by refusing to buy drugs...

Silly?

I think my only choice, and one that fits in well with putting out of my mind how fast this country is morphing into something I barely recognize, is to be on the safe side.

It would suck to be nailed for increasing demand, but it would doubly-suck for Gonzolez to take me down for supressing demand!
 
285sarge33rd
      ID: 344362512
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 16:41
re 276, I disagree bili. The basis for this ruling, is that the personal production of a commodity, infringes upon the interstate commerce for that same commodity. If that holds true for one product/item/good/service, it has to hold true for others as well. Else, the very foundation for the initial ruling erodes. Since this ruling comes from SCOTUS, its a pretty final decision. With the ruling that production of wheat for perrsonal use impedes interstate commerce in wheat, and now the personal production of a controlled substance does the same, where is the foundation for arguing that the personal production of roses does not fit within the ruling? I see no clearcut way of excluding it.
 
286Toral
      ID: 53422511
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 16:49
sargeThe basis for this ruling, is that the personal production of a commodity, infringes upon the interstate commerce for that same commodity.

It's not that it infringes upon interstate commerce; it's that it conflicts with a federal law passed under the federal government's authority to regulate interstate commerce.

To be specific, the wheat grown in Wickard brought on a penalty for being in excess of the marketing quota established under the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1938.

The marijuana in Raith was obtained and possessed contrary to the federal Controlled Substances Act.

Until there's some federal legislation governing rose cultivation and sale, there's no conflict, no illegality.

Toral
 
287biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 16:50
Here's the difference. Marijuana is a controlled substance, Sarge. Roses are not a controlled substance, though I heard they perhaps should be -

- anyone else atuned to the South American, high-altitude rose sweatshops?

Me neither.

Thus, grow roses to your heart's content, so to speak. Of course Congress could pass a law that controls to commerce of roses, at which time, you would then have to be concerned about the 46,000 tea roses in your back yard, and your ability to smell them.
 
288Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 16:59
In a recent study commissioned by the Bush Administration, marijuana was tightly packed into 100 lb. Bricks were used to demonstrate the deadly effects of the hideous drug on health.

Multiple lab mice, one at a time, were placed in soft foam cages in the center of a room containing industrial lifts. First a single 100 lb brick was used, then another added, so on and so forth. Eighty percent of the mice died when subjected to the crushing force of 1400 lb, while 100% died when placed under a load 1 of ton (2000 lb) of marijuana.

In conclusion, 1 ton of marijuana will crush mice to death; by extrapolation, based of structural differences, 5 tons of marijuana will fatally crush humans, thereby proving dangerous effects of marijuana.
 
289Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 17:08
Ann Althouse hmmm. I think I am beginning to understand Scalia's argument. I still prefer Thomas, however.
 
290biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 17:28
She didn't shed any light for me. Scalia apologist.

One state's experiment with gun-exchange programs and parental responsibility laws doesn't undercut a tough imprisonment policy used in the next state. You don't need a uniform national law to deal with the problem. In fact, the different state policies work as experiments, generating information about which policy works best. But if it is to be possible to ban marijuana, a uniform national law is important. One state's lenient approach would undercut the next state's hardcore approach. That's the Lopez-based argument for congressional power in Raich.

Why would it? I don't see any commerce-related reasoning that Nevada's marijuana market would be appreciably affected by California letting glaucoma patients grow a few plants. This is a huge reach, which I feel Scalia is making because of his personal biases.
 
291Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 17:30
Good idea. Get at it. The liberal bloc all voted against medical marijuana.

it was sarcasm. clearly a jab at DeLay and his ilk.
 
292Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 19:01
br -- well, if you only hold the statute to a rational basis view, it's not too hard to see how the gov't could think so. In Lopez, for example, however, it's virtually an impossible argument, since the regulation itself was defined as a locality.

which I feel Scalia is making because of his personal biases ... this is one of the weirder arguments that liberals are making right now; it puts Scalia in a bit of a box. If Scalia ever agrees with the liberals, even in part like he did here, then that was just because of his personal bias.

Tree -- DeLay and his ilk are responsible for getting the three "nay" votes on this court. Why are you jabbing him here? Were you in the 6 or the 3?
 
293biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 19:05
No, if he agrees with liberals, that's because in spite of the evil coursing through his veins, he has to throw the Emperor down the into the generator and save his son. ;)

Er, sorry. The point must be so glaring that he can't possible corrupt the meaning of the constitution any further.
 
294Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 19:24
MITH

Cut and pasting from a PDF! Wish I had run across that trick a long time ago. Thanks MITH.
 
295Tree
      ID: 54549519
      Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 21:15
Tree -- DeLay and his ilk are responsible for getting the three "nay" votes on this court. Why are you jabbing him here? Were you in the 6 or the 3?

wow. are conservatives really that dense?
 
296Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, Jun 08, 2005, 21:02


My friend Ric was on the top fold of yesterday's Seattle's P-I's story: High court deals blow to medical marijuana. It was great story for a sad occasion. I've known Ric for four years and it is not an exaggeration when I say that it is amazing he is still alive.

Ric Smith rolled into Seattle's Hempfest for the first time in a wheelchair in 1996. He weighed 97 pounds and was dying of AIDS. When a medical marijuana advocate at the annual cannabis celebration offered him a joint, Smith was skeptical. "I had no faith whatsoever in the fact that it was medical. I just figured I'd at least be happy. It's OK to just be happy," said Smith, his voice cracking with emotion during a telephone interview yesterday. "And then I got really hungry. I hadn't been hungry in months."

I saw Ric yesterday at a Seattle Hempfest meeting. He was walking with the help of a cane, the first time I've seen him on his feet in nearly a year.

Yeah, I'm disappointed with the Supreme Court's ruling in Raich v. Ashcroft, but I was glad to learn that both Angel Raich and Diana Monson are coming to Seattle August 20 & 21 to speak at Hempfest.
 
297Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Thu, Jun 09, 2005, 11:55
Mark Fiore makes some sense out of all this.
 
298myboyjack
      ID: 234581910
      Thu, Jun 09, 2005, 12:09
heh
 
299biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Jun 09, 2005, 15:01
Randy Barnett's comments.

He slams Kennedy.
 
300biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Fri, Jun 10, 2005, 13:11
Commerce Clause Satire (actual satire, not simply Coulter lies misnamed satire).

COMMERCE IN THE WILD!

Be very very quiet... we are commerce-watching. To your left is the beautiful red-crested commerce with its unusual nesting activity and its colorful plumage. Up ahead is the Australian striped mock commerce, which is not commerce but uses its natural camouflage to imitate the markings of commerce and confuse predators. To your right is a big moose! You can shoot em all if you wanna. They're pretty much the same.

Extra Credit Nature Koan: If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around, and Antonin Scalia doesn't like it, can we ban it? Yes.

 
301Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Fri, Sep 02, 2005, 02:14
The US Constitution obviously does not extend to Utah County, Utah.

At 11:30 PM on August 20, police officers and SWAT team members stormed Versus II, a legal party being held on private land in Utah County. The county sheriff's office made clear that it was targeting this event because it was a rave. In order to protect citizens from these alleged grave dangers, the county sent in 90 officers from local and state SWAT teams, along with dogs and at least one helicopter. Attendees were intimidated by heavily armed officers in fatigues, and several eyewitness reports describe people being tackled and kicked, though they did not resist arrest. Story.

I challenge you to watch that video and not be disgusted by the ridiculous overzealousness of the "sheriff", they sure look like a military force to me. What a disgusting waste of taxpayers' money, is crime so bad in Utah County that they need to arm their police force to such a degree that the troops in Iraq would be envious?

Check out music-versus-guns, a great response to this atrocity.

For the past twenty years, this systematic use of militarized force has been directed against electronic dance music cultures, not only in the United States but throughout the world, and often under the supposed reasoning of the War on Drugs, as well as due to mostly inaccurate perceptions of electronic dance music culture as violent, drug-ridden, and sexually irresponsible.

As educators, academics, artists and researchers of electronic dance music culture, we wish to dispel these all-too prevalent myths that raves--a primary form of experience and expression of this multifaceted, global and diverse culture--are the dens of illegality they are made out to be. Raves and other electronic dance culture events are, on the whole, a far safer and more affirmative experience than most bars, hockey rinks and football games; certainly they warrant no special attention among the fundamental rights of humans to appreciate, gather and express their freedoms. At their best, raves exhibit the positive characteristics that electronic dance music culture cherishes and cultivates: a sense of peace and respect shared through the common love of dance, art and music. They are today's carnivals and fairs, the folk gatherings that humanity has enjoyed for millenia.

These statements are obvious to anyone who has participated in a rave. I really hope that Utah County gets sued for tens of millions of dollars, perhaps only then will its citizens reign in its high tech-armed-to-the-teeth posse.
 
302Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Sep 02, 2005, 08:12
The increasing militarization of local police is really getting scary. the mentality it develops in the individual officers is removing many of them from the reality of their jobs and into some kind of unber police fantasy world. I'll take Andy Griffith over these Robocops I deal with now any day.
 
303Pancho Villa
      ID: 197552915
      Fri, Sep 02, 2005, 09:24
I live in Utah County, though I'm ashamed to admit it after this gestapo raid.
 
304Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Sep 02, 2005, 10:38
It's Reefer Madness all over again.
 
305soxzeitgeist
      ID: 38727189
      Thu, Sep 08, 2005, 10:41
According to the federal governments own statistics, last year tobacco was responsible for the death of ~395,000 people. Alcohol, (not including drunk driving fatalities) ~125,000 people. Legal or Rx drug overdoses: ~38,000 Illegal drug overdoses: ~5,200

Deaths attributed to marijuana overdose: 0

Considering government subsidies of tobacco, and our love affair with alcohol, just what is our government protecting us from in the war on drugs?

Why no heavily armed raids on Anheuser-Busch? How do we justify the Coors girls jiggling their wares? The now ubiquitous ED...err...lifestyle drug advertisements during every sporting event?

This country is soooo full of crap sometimes.
 
306Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Thu, Sep 08, 2005, 11:07
Deaths attributed to marijuana overdose: 0


Deaths attributed to tobacco overdose: 0


Look, I'm for the legalization of marijuana and all - but that was just shoddy, sox. When MJ is legalized, there will be a corresponding uptick in deaths attributed to it. It impairs driving like alchohol does. It is a health risk, like (though not as bad as) tobacco if smoked in excess.

It is true though, that I've never seen someone who smoked some weed and then beat up his wife or shot his buddy, unlike alchohol.
 
307soxzeitgeist
      ID: 38727189
      Thu, Sep 08, 2005, 11:24
A good observation, and poorly-phrased-while-trying-to-make-a-point by me, mbj.

How about "when properly used, tobacco - a government subsidied product - will kill you; yet the feds are perfectly okay with this while at the same time prohibiting the use of a demonstrably less dangerous drug."
 
308Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Sep 08, 2005, 11:28
The driving imparement factor mj is definitely true but not nearly as bad as with alcohol. You should never drive after smoking but imparement from it is notably less severe than being drunk and it wears off much, much more quickly.
 
309Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Thu, Sep 08, 2005, 11:39
Alas, there's no more government subsidy for Tobacco. I got bought out last year.

;(
 
310Stuck in the 60s
      ID: 274132811
      Sat, Sep 10, 2005, 08:19
I guess most Americans over the age of 6 probably realize that MJ is relatively benign. That would include politicians.

I've never heard a cogent argument for banning MJ.
Anyone care to offer one, or maybe even repeat one that makes sense to them?

Don
 
311soxzeitgeist
      ID: 53753319
      Sat, Sep 10, 2005, 11:44
Did the subsidies end in '03, mbj? The feds paid out $51,121,183.00 to tobacco farmers that year.
 
312sarge33rd
      ID: 27563010
      Sat, Sep 10, 2005, 11:51
isnt that just one twisted barrel of monkeys? States tax the living $hit out of cigarettes, then suit the tobacco companies for additional revenue, and all the while, the feds are/were subsidizing (for all practical purposes) both ends of that particular stick.
 
313Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 12:02
from Baldwin, in the gay rights thread:
When Ashley Smith 'loved and respected' Brian Nichols after his Fulton county killing spree, was it because of his unchristian course or despite his course of conduct. Or would you like to believe that such issues can be dodged with the inchoate, 'loved and respected because he was one of God's creatures'?

looks like it wasn't love, respect, or even God that got her through her ordeal.

Apparently, she gave him crystal meth, from her own, personal, illegal stash...

not saying that meth is a good thing, but i do find it ironic that the media, which is of course controlled by Liberals and Clintons, talked exclusively about how God got her through this deal...

and now, the truth comes out.
 
314Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 09:10
A U.S. Army veteran who fled to Canada to avoid prosecution because he grew marijuana to help control chronic pain was yanked from a hospital by Canadian authorities, driven to the U.S. border with a catheter still attached, and turned over to U.S. officials - who provided him with no medical treatment for five days, his lawyer said.
"The guy comes into the jail with a catheter sticking out the end of his (penis), you'd think they'd do something about it!" [his lawyer] said, launching into a profanity-laced tirade after the hearing. "This is totally inhumane. He's been tortured for days for no reason."
 
315Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 12:58
Great post, MITH. I'm buddies with Doug Hiatt, famous for his profanity-laced tirades. Tuck's treatment has been inhumane, we are talking about a guy who is growing marijuana in a state that allows for medical use, he obviously qualifies, the whole thing is ridiculous.
 
316Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 13:08
92% of Souls in Hell There on Drug Charges
 
317Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Oct 14, 2005, 08:04
If I wasn't semi-retired from RG I think I'd start calling SZ, Carl Lazlo (from the radical lawyer in 'Where Buffalo Roam').



I suspect he's been acting out Boyle's role ever since he saw the movie. 8]
 
318Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Fri, Oct 14, 2005, 08:46
Re 314:

That's just hard to believe, MITH. Thanks for the post.
In my day, we'd hit the streets over that. Nowadays, it seems that the only consideration is building up those 401Ks.

Doesn't anyone up there feel humiliated enough by the actions of their government to take action?

Don
 
319Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Fri, Oct 14, 2005, 10:56
In my day, we'd hit the streets over that.

We wanted to include that one in a newsbreak (our newsbreaks dept is where I heard about the story) and so I contacted our newsgathering service to find out if they planned to pick it up. They were hot after the story too but the only local affil in Seattle that covered it (and is part of the service) refused to supply it to be made available nationally.
 
320Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Mon, Oct 17, 2005, 11:17
What an awesome awesome movie I just saw on IFC named 'Sweet Hereafter' which dealt incidentally or perhaps I should say metaphorically with losing a drug using daughter. While Bili and SZ are singing drug use's praises they'd do better to paint a realistic picture.

I highly recomend you try and catch this wonderful movie about a schoolbus crash and it's aftermath in a small northern town.
 
321biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Mon, Oct 17, 2005, 11:44
Great movie. Saw it in the theaters when it first came out. Egoyan's Exotica is also good. I don't recall singing drug use's praises too loudly, but then I also don't recall this movie having much to do with drug use either. I do think incarcerating users does more harm than good.
 
322mahklasdf
      ID: 379552913
      Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 15:55
I only read the first few posts and don't have time to read the rest, but saw some comments that seemed to be misinformed. I saw someone say "meth is different than speed" which isn't true. "Speed" is slang people use for most amphetamines, most commonly methamphetamine WHICH IS SOLD LEGALLY IN THE UNTITED STATES UNDER THE BRAND NAME DESOXYN. because of all the stigma associated w/ the word "METHamphetamine" Desoxyn is less commonly prescribed than DEXTROamphetamine (Dexedrine) and other amphetamine salts even though the effects are identical. Anyways amphetamines are not more damaging than other stimulants, it is just a question of dosage, and because amphetamines tend to have more pleasurable effects in high doses they are commonly used in higher doses than caffine pills (ie No Doze) or nicotine gum. Also there is a pharmacuetical stimulant that is more safe and has less side effects then nicotine, caffine, and amphetamines. It is called modafinil and the military uses it to keep pilots awake for long periods of time (they call it the "Go Pill"). It's also used to treat narcolepsy under the brand name Provigil.
 
323mahklasdf
      ID: 379552913
      Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 16:26
... one of the points was these substances are very accessable, anyone can go in and say you have symptoms of narcolepsy, chronic fatigue synd, attention deficit, hypersomnia, sleep apnea, etc. and get a hold of these (even get health insurance to pay for it!). and if you do it in the doses they are prescribed they're not harmful (or at least not any more harmful than they are for the people w/ these problems), they affect people who have prescriptions the same way they would affect any of us... don't think they are just "balancing out a chemical imbalance" for people who have symptoms.
 
324Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 20:02
The Final Jeopardy category tonight was 20th Century American Books.

The Answer was "This book begins with the sentence 'We were somewhere around Barstow... when the drugs began to take hold.'

Naturally I got it. 1 of the 2 remaining contestants did.

I've gotta say, when I read that classic, I thot to myself "This opening line is going to become one of the classically known ones in Ameri Lit."

Toral
 
325biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 20:14
Nice call.
 
327Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Fri, Apr 28, 2006, 19:53
Alright, kids, pile into the car, we're taking a road trip to MEXICO!

Possessing marijuana, cocaine and even heroin will no longer be a crime in Mexico if the drugs are carried in small amounts for personal use, under legislation passed by Congress.
 
329Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Apr 28, 2006, 20:06
I got it but won't spoil it.
 
330Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Thu, Jun 15, 2006, 20:35
Methamphetamine use is rare in most of the United States, not the raging epidemic described by politicians and the news media

Meth is a dangerous drug but among the least commonly used, The Sentencing Project policy analyst Ryan King wrote in a report issued Wednesday. Rates of use have been stable since 1999, and among teenagers meth use has dropped, King said. "The portrayal of methamphetamine in the United States as an epidemic spreading across the country has been grossly overstated,"

I see the lives meth has laid to waste amongst my clients, I am not a fan. That said, I am against any federal imposition of manditory minimums, state ones as well. Drug War hysteria erodes respect in government by everyone, decades in jail serves no one but the prison guard lobby.

Here's a link to a piece on the study by NPR yesterday.

Here's a link to The Sentencing Project. Maybe they will fix their link to the full report by the time you read this.
 
331Myboyjack
      ID: 235581120
      Thu, Jun 15, 2006, 20:54
Meth has defintely been an epidemic in Kentucky, though increased law enforecement attention and drug store notification laws (which require sellers of certain key ingredients used in meth production to notify law enforecement when the ingredients are purchased in bulk quantities) seem to be having an affect over the past couple of years. Locally, when we cracked down on the more notorious meth producers and put a few away for a decade, we saw a return to crack use.
 
332biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Jun 16, 2006, 00:49
Kleiman takes on the Sentencing Project, and King in particular.
 
333Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Fri, Jun 16, 2006, 01:22
Great piece, Bili

But in overall social impact, I'd rate it third among the illicit drugs, behind cocaine (including crack) and heroin, and way ahead of cannabis, "club drugs" including MDMA, and diverted licit pharmaceuticals including opioids such as Oxycontin and benzodiazepines such as Valium and Xanax. (Alcohol, of course, swamps them all.)

I'm certain that King agree with that statement, as do I. Kleinman rightly takes King to task for using NS-DUH data, but he admits that there really isn't any good data.
 
334biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Jun 16, 2006, 01:42
Yeah, I don't always agree with his conclusions, but Kleiman knows his drugs.
 
335Ron Slater
      ID: 10525610
      Fri, Jun 16, 2006, 11:05
Behind every good man there is a woman, and that woman was Martha Washington, man, and everyday George would come home, she would have a big fat bowl waiting for him, man, when he come in the door, man, she was a hip, hip, hip lady, man.
 
336Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Wed, Jul 12, 2006, 10:40
This just in: Shrooms kick ass!

People who took psilocybin reported profound mystical experiences that led to behavior changes lasting for weeks. Many of the 36 volunteers rated their reaction to a single dose of psilocybin as one of the most meaningful or spiritually significant experiences of their lives. Some compared it to the birth of a child or the death of a parent. Viewed by some as a landmark, the study is one of the few rigorous looks in the past 40 years at a hallucinogen's effects.

The study of hallucinogens is long overdue. These powerful drugs could well have some very useful medicial value that has been undiscovered because anti-drug idiots in DC have prevented their study.
 
337Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Dec 05, 2006, 19:30
Now, as a result of documents disclosed in three separate court cases, it is becoming clear that Luis Padilla's murder, along with at least 11 further brutal killings, at the Juarez "House of Death", is part of a gruesome scandal, a web of connivance and cover-up stretching from the wild Texas borderland to top Washington officials close to President Bush. While the eyes of the world have been largely averted, America's "war on drugs" has moved to a new phase of cynicism and amorality, in which the loss of human life has lost all importance -- especially if the victims are Hispanic. The US agencies and officials in this saga appear to have thought it more important to get information about drugs trafficking than to stop its perpetrators killing people.

What is alleged in this story is an abomination.
The story turns on one extraordinary fact: playing a central role in the House of Death was a US government informant, Guillermo Ramirez Peyro, known as Lalo, who was paid more than $220,000 by US law enforcement bodies to work as a spy inside the Juarez cartel. In August 2003 Lalo bought the quicklime used to dissolve the flesh of the first victim, Mexican lawyer Fernando Reyes, and then helped to kill him; he recorded the murder secretly with a bug supplied by his handlers -- agents from the Immigration and Customs Executive (Ice), part of the Department of Homeland Security. That first killing threw the Ice staff in El Paso into a panic. Their informant had helped to commit first-degree murder, and they feared they would have to end his contract and abort the operations for which he was being used. But the Department of Justice told them to proceed.
 
338Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 14:52
Montana Meth Project - 12 ads by Darren Aronofsky...

these are some really well done, intense ads. "boyfriend" and "bathtub" both made me wince, but all are really well done...
 
339Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 15:18
Court: Dying can be charged for using marijuana

(Angel Raich, 41, an Oakland mother of two who suffers from scoliosis, a brain tumor, chronic nausea and other ailments) began sobbing when she was told of the decision and said she would continue using the drug.

"I'm sure not going to let them kill me," she said. "Oh my God."
 
340sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 16:57
This from the same government that filed suit to keep the shell of a human being alive via whatever means possible????? ahhhhhhhhh the compassionate sense of the conservative. Fight for the "rights" of an unborn/undeveloped fetus, but to hell with the living.
 
341Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 17:45
to hell with the living

That pretty much sums up Sarge's respect for life. He can't even add the standard military slogan - 'and let God sort them out' because he doesn't believe, but he'll be happy to decide who can live and who should die.
 
342sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 19:14
Even if you tried you couldnt misrepresent my beliefs, anymore than you already do.
 
343Tree
      ID: 552501416
      Wed, Mar 14, 2007, 19:17
Baldwin never did meet a sarcasm he understood...

Baldie - he was mocking the Conservative adoration for fetuses and vegetables, but the "f*ck you" attitude they have toward many living, breathing, productive, existing outside the womb and thinking on their own, human beings.
 
344Perm Dude
      ID: 48329127
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 23:24
So which group was full of psychopaths?
 
345Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 23:42
You picked the right thread, Perm. In fact, if you read post 337, you'll see why ;)
 
346Perm Dude
      ID: 48329127
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 23:47
Heh! Came to the same story a different way. Worth telling twice, I think, Zen.
 
347Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Jul 16, 2007, 14:38
Most of the nation’s approximately 16.4 million current illicit drug users and approximately 15 million heavy alcohol users hold full-time jobs, according to a new study by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA).

Interesting survey results were released by SAMHSA today. It's over 200 pages long, so before I make any comments on the results, I want to review the whole report. Unfortunately, they lump marijuana users in with all other illegal drugs. Marijuana users dwarf the number of other drug users, of course. I think far more interesting and useful information would arise from a survey that had three categories: Marijuana, Other illegal drugs, heavy alcohol use, but I also firmly believe that the information gained by making marijuana its own category would be evidence that marijuana use is not harmful to the lives of the users other than the unfortunate fact that you can go to jail.

Here's a copy of the full report
 
348boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Mon, Jul 16, 2007, 15:22
So let me paraphrase what the report says not that you can hold down a full time job and be addicted to drugs but that you can work in the food service and construction industries and be addicted. Thanks SAMHSA for releasing a report that pretty much anyone could have guessed.
 
349biliruben
      ID: 35112816
      Mon, Jul 16, 2007, 15:46
Construction, at least around here, tests pretty aggressively.
 
350holt
      ID: 410511410
      Mon, Jul 16, 2007, 20:40
illicit drug user = addicted to drugs and working at McDonald's?? I think a lot of the Ned Flanders/Archie Bunker types would be pretty shocked if all the pot smokers in the U.S. were suddenly revealed. believe it or not, that group includes cops, teachers, church members, scientists, accountants, etc.

I've had the experience of having a cop confiscate a bag of weed and sending all of us on our way. no arrests or anything like that. I'm sure that weed went right to the evidence room.

either throw all 20, 30, 40 million of us in prison, or legalize it. I'd prefer option 2, but option 1 would be amusing to see.
 
351boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 12:27
how about option 3 just shoot you like they did in china to eliminate the opium problem.
 
352holt
      ID: 410511410
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 12:42
Yeah, that's a great idea there. Brilliant.
 
353boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 13:33
well personally i think we should tax all drugs and shoot those who do not pay there taxes on the drugs, ok maybe not shoot them. I just thought i would through out another option, one that acctually did work.
 
354Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 13:39
SZ

Got any credible scientific testing to show that people who are stoned remain safe drivers?
 
355holt
      ID: 410511410
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 14:11
As opposed to what? People who've been drinking, or people who text message while they're driving?

I don't think anyone has ever made the point that it's ok to drive if you're impaired. There are a lot of things that are dangerous to do while you're driving but we don't make all those things illegal across the board. So, it's ok to read a book, get drunk, eat fastfood, text message etc. while not driving, but marijuana might be dangerous while you're driving so we need to prohibit it, imprison people who use it, seize their property, etc.? point is, the fact that a drug might impair a driver isn't a valid excuse for the drug war.
 
356Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 15:21
Holt

From the POV of the druglords and true drug profiteers the drug war is a hoax. I don't speak in support of it.

Nevertheless I also disagree with this phrase of SZ's...
that marijuana use is not harmful to the lives of the users other than the unfortunate fact that you can go to jail. - SZ
 
357sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 15:29
I think context is the issue here. I dont believe SZ would defend driving while high. (In my experience, though it was a LONG time ago), there wasnt much difference between being stoned and being drunk. (Other than the paranoia while stoned and the lack of a hangover the next day.)

In the strictest sense, Baldwin has a point. But I think SZ was referring to alcohols ability to destroy organs by its very ingestion. (Though I could be worng. *shrug*)
 
358Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 15:37
I think the driving argument is prolly the most obvious threat MJ posses to the non-user. The gateway drug issue may trump that. The damage to the severely psychologically addicted is prolly the biggest threat to the user.

Alcohol is worse, yadda yadda yadda, yeah, so what?

That's like the guy shooting himself in the head with a pellet gun dismissing the danger because shotguns...
 
359sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 15:48
I'm not so sure the "gateway" argument holds water. True, many later heavy drug users started on marijuana. But that falls far short from dmonstrating a causal affect on marijuanas part. (A requirement I'd think, for accurately labeling MJ as a "gateway" drug.)

I also never knew ANYONE, who was "addicted" to MJ. Again, in my experience, MJ is a non-addictive drug. The heroin user will rob his/her Momma blind, to feed their habit. As will the alcoholic. An MJ user though, tokes when he/she has it, and doesnt when they dont. Nothing approaching, not even remotely, the addictive nature of cigarettes or "hard" drugs.
 
360holt
      ID: 410511410
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 15:56
"I think the driving argument is prolly the most obvious threat MJ posses to the non-user."

that sounds like a good argument for ending the war against MJ. When you're out on the highway, MJ has got to be pretty low on your list of worries. I'd list it right between "guy gets angered by radio talk show, beats fist on steering wheel, and hits me head-on" and "asteroid crashes through my windshield".
 
361boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 15:59
i have known people who were addicted and they would rob their mother to get high and did.
 
362Perm Dude
      ID: 6651178
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 16:04
I actually knew a guy who died under the influence of MJ while driving. Drove right off a bridge into the Cleveland Metroparks (a drop of about 300 feet or so).

I think anyone addicted enough to smoke and drive is also addicted enough to drink and drive. The choice of drug doesn't matter so much as someone thinking they have the ability to drive while impaired.

It's helpful, I think, to just stay out of 7-11 parking lots.

pd
 
363sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 16:04
question re those people boikin...

By their very natures, were they the types of people who would have robbed their mothers anyway?

As of rthe addictive qualities of MJ...when I was in HS, we toked...a LOT. When I went into the Army and had to get my security clerance...I quit. Period. No W/Ds, no urges, n-o-t-h-i-n-g. Just a fear of losing my job (by virtue of losing the security clearance) and/or going to jail if I continued to toke...so I quit. The one time I put down the cigarettes for 18 months though? THAT, was incredibly difficult. And then one smoke...just one, and I was hooked all over again. I simply do not buy that MJ is addictive. The drug itself, caused no addiction in anyone I ever knew. That is not to say, I didnt know whose personallity was such, that they werent addicted to acting out in defiant ways, one of which may have been the use of MJ.
 
364boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 16:18
No they were not and as much as i am sure you toked allot in highschool, you did not grow it in your house so you would not have to leave to get high, that is the kind of addiction i am talking about.
 
365sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 16:22
who says I didnt grow it? I grew up on a farm boikin. Had LOTS of room to do stuff like that.
 
366Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 16:23
No they were not and as much as i am sure you toked allot in highschool, you did not grow it in your house so you would not have to leave to get high, that is the kind of addiction i am talking about.

i know plenty of people who grow their own. it has nothing to do with not having to leave the house to get high, and everything to do with wanting it cheaper, and cleaner, and suited to their own tastes.
 
367boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 16:38
yeah i am sure that is true tree, i am just saying he grew it so he would not have to leave the house he even said so. and sarge i said his house even not his farm and having to go out side would be too much effort. i am not sure why people will not except that pot can be addictive, if you know anything about addiction you would know that almost anything can become addictive. i find it amazing that i am the only one who knows 2 people who become addicted. the question i have is why do you do it, if it has no additive affects why do you keep doing it? It is not like it healthy for you, it is not like it is going to make you smarter.
 
368sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 16:49
First...I said above that I quit, many years ago.
Second...I did it, because the feeling of being "stoned" is not at all unpleasant. (Other than the paranoia.)
Third..The lack of a hangover, was very nice.
Fourth...An weeks worth of pot, weighs less than a beer. Easy to take along anywhere I wanted to go.

If you only know 2 people you can point to as "addicted", that is evidence that pot is non-addictive. Trust me, you know FAR more than 2 people who toke.
 
369boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 16:58
sarge i was not saying that everyong was addicted just some that are, though i do know atleast two other people who could be on that list, i think my favorite one of them was when i told one of them that i just read that pot would not be allowed for passover, i think he almost had a heartattack then he decided that smoking was all good and that it did not meet the requirements. Basically all i am saying is that pot can be addictive, just as i know people who smoked cigerettes then quit with out any trouble. they were not addicted. It is ok addmit that it can be additive just alchol is.
 
370holt
      ID: 410511410
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 17:03
alright, let's just declare war against every substance/object/activity in the U.S. that carries some potential of addictiveness then.
 
371holt
      ID: 410511410
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 17:09
War on Drugs Clock
 
372Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 17:13
just read that pot would not be allowed for passover...

that is still being debated. Ashkenazi Jews abstain from eating kitniyot (legumes) during Passover. the logic is that kitniyot *may* have come in contact with grains, and hemp has started to show up on this list of kitniyot, that is somewhat arbitrary.

recently, some jewish courts said the tradition of kitniyot is outdated, and have said it no longer applies.

however, Israel's Green Leaf (pro-marijuana) Party did say that to be safe, until the matter is settled, that according to God, marijuana is not kosher for passover.

the logic, of course, that follows that is that if marijuana is not kosher for passover, it must be kosher the rest of the year...
 
373Perm Dude
      ID: 6651178
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 17:14
$18 billion/year? C'mon--that's only two months of the "War on Terror" costs.
 
374biliruben
      ID: 35112816
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 17:17
The epidemiologic evidence for THC impairment while driving is pretty spotty. There are only 6 or so studies, which generally compare the blood THC levels of the driver not at fault to the driver at fault (which I would think would bias the study, given that the high dude would be more likely to be labeled "at fault"). half studies showed that baked drivers non-significantly better drivers, and half showed they were non-significantly worse drivers. There was one study that showed some dose response, which might get at recency.

The problem is that THC can stay in the blood stream for sometimes weeks, so these drivers were not necessarily impaired.

There have been some studies on cognition and motor function, and they do show some impairment, but the data on actual driving is very poor, and not very damning, imho. Just a hard study to do.

Perhaps part of the effect is the nature of the drug. It makes you more cautious, so though you may be impaired, that impairment might be mitigated by change in behavior.
 
375holt
      ID: 410511410
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 17:23
actually, it's showing 28 billion dollars so far this year.

even the National Review, going back to 1996, is in strong favor of legalizing drugs.

We are joined in our judgment by Ethan A. Nadelmann, a scholar and researcher; Kurt Schmoke, a mayor and former prosecutor; Joseph D. McNamara, a former police chief; Robert W. Sweet, a federal judge and former prosecutor; Thomas Szasz, a psychiatrist; and Steven B. Duke, a law professor. Each has his own emphases, as one might expect. All agree that the celebrated war has failed, and that it is time to go home, and to mobilize fresh thought on the drug problem in the context of a free society. This symposium is our contribution to such thought.
--THE EDITORS


full article here - it's worth reading
 
376Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 17:32
Re posts 354 & 374

Look at post 188 in this lovely thread. It regards a 2001 British study of marijuana and driving. The link is no longer good, but this one links to a story in the NORML archives regarding the study.
 
377biliruben
      ID: 35112816
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 17:50
Yeah - I remember that study, Zen. I'm more interested in real-life results, however.
 
378Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 19:05
If you only know 2 people you can point to as "addicted", that is evidence that pot is non-addictive. - Sarge

What I would expect from the guy who dismissed all Terry Schiavo's nurses' testimony that she was responsive.

If you know one person who gets addicted, it is addictive.

You don't need the entire Cheech and Chong Fan Club.
 
379sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 19:32
No Baldy...you DO need repeatedly similar results, to demonstrate a causal status. 2 out of 1,000...is not proof of an addictive nature in the drug. Its demonstrable, of a compulsion within the personality.
 
380Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 22:33
In the case of MJ I am talking about psychological addiction as opposed to physical addiction.

The case is strong that for many people MJ takes over their life. Just look at SZ. If it isn't about MJ it barely registers with him.

Similarly the case is pretty strong that there is a gateway phenomenon. I'd hate to have the debate position that MJ users aren't more likely to identify with the drug culture or that it hasn't effected their resistance to using drugs.
 
381Perm Dude
      ID: 6651178
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 22:45
Those who would be taking harder stuff would be taking them anyway, IMO. Calling MJ a gateway drug is like calling alcohol a gateway drug. Chances are that those people taking the hard stuff probably got some beer & liquor in pretty early too. It doesn't mean that the great taste of Pabst Blue Ribbon causes heroin abuse.

I do agree, as with anything pleasurable, that the opportunity exists for abuse as well as addition. Those who would scoff at the addiction of MJ need only look at the addition of alcohol. The difference is mostly that MJ is more difficult to obtain, not that it necessarily is less addictive.

I'm not making a call to continue to outlaw MJ. Just saying that those who wave aside questions of addition should be preparing their responses when addition numbers go up with wider availability of MJ.
 
382Seattle Zen
      ID: 86541617
      Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 23:48
Just look at SZ. If it isn't about MJ it barely registers with him.

Only a low moron confuses these boards with the entirety of one's life. To imply you know what registers with me is a laugh as the depth of your knowledge is but a flicking 1 watt bulb. To imply that marijuana has taken over my life is an insult of such proportions that in the old days, the days when you were a simpering little snot in high school, would have landed a swift fist in the chops.

Shove it up your ass.
 
383Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 00:07
It was a joke...mostly. It is odd and true that it is about the only reliable way to induce an SZ post.

You tell me what that indicates. Why is that? How can anyone be so dedicated to that subect?

If the only time I ever posted was when someone mentioned chocolate or pepsi-cola what would you conclude? Nothing?
 
384holt
      ID: 41512278
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 00:53
baldwin, I'm sure your familiar with the National Review. you should click that link I posted in 375 and check it out. anyone who looks at the issue closely should be able to see that the war on drugs is a massive failure. it's not only drug users who want the war to end. it's people like William F. Buckley Jr.

fact is, drug use of every kind has increased by leaps and bounds since prohibition began. the war on drugs is not winnable. it's a massive waste of money and lives.

here's another thing. the prohibition of alcohol required an amendment to the constitution. why? because without the amendment it would have been a violation of the principles of limited government found in the constitution. so... where's the amendment that makes this war on drugs legal? there isn't one, and it's not.

from the Washington Post:
Alberto Fujimori, president of Peru from 1990-2000, described U.S. foreign drug policy as "failed" on grounds that "for 10 years, there has been a considerable sum invested by the Peruvian government and another sum on the part of the American government, and this has not led to a reduction in the supply of coca leaf offered for sale. Rather, in the 10 years from 1980 to 1990, it grew 10-fold."

from The New York Times:
In the six years from 2000-2006, the USA spent $4.7 billion on "Plan Colombia", an effort to eradicate coca production in South America. The main result of this effort was to shift coca production into more remote areas, the overall acreage cultivated for coca in Colombia at the end of the six years was the same, and cultivation in the neighbouring countries of Peru and Bolivia actually increased.

from The Drug Policy Alliance:
What's wrong with the drug war?
Everyone has a stake in ending the war on drugs. Whether you’re a parent concerned about protecting children from drug-related harm, a social justice advocate worried about racially disproportionate incarceration rates, an environmentalist seeking to protect the Amazon rainforest or a fiscally conservative taxpayer you have a stake in ending the drug war. U.S. federal, state and local governments have spent hundreds of billions of dollars trying to make America “drug-free.” Yet heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine and other illicit drugs are cheaper, purer and easier to get than ever before. Nearly half a million people are behind bars on drug charges - more than all of western Europe (with a bigger population) incarcerates for all offenses. The war on drugs has become a war on families, a war on public health and a war on our constitutional rights.

Many of the problems the drug war purports to resolve are in fact caused by the drug war itself. So-called “drug-related” crime is a direct result of drug prohibition's distortion of immutable laws of supply and demand. Public health problems like HIV and Hepatitis C are all exacerbated by zero tolerance laws that restrict access to clean needles. The drug war is not the promoter of family values that some would have us believe. Children of inmates are at risk of educational failure, joblessness, addiction and delinquency. Drug abuse is bad, but the drug war is worse.
 
385Seattle Zen
      ID: 86541617
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 01:12
You tell me what that indicates. Why is that? How can anyone be so dedicated to that subect?

It indicates that there is a dedicated drug law reform advocate who will not stop until these stupid laws are changed. When possession of chocolate or pepsi would land you in jail, I will join you in that fight.

To say I only post about cannabis is preposterous and you should know better, but you are never one to let facts get in the way of your opinions.
 
386Boxman
      ID: 211139621
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 06:16
To say I only post about cannabis is preposterous and you should know better, but you are never one to let facts get in the way of your opinions.

I think Baldwin forgot about the in depth political cartoons and forum policing related posts.
 
387Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 09:18
I think you forgot to add your Kool-Aid Man picture.
 
388Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 09:34
here's another thing. the prohibition of alcohol required an amendment to the constitution. why? because without the amendment it would have been a violation of the principles of limited government found in the constitution. so... where's the amendment that makes this war on drugs legal? there isn't one, and it's not.

Well put, Mr holt. And it's not just outlawing drugs that should have an amendment: Social Security tax, Medicare tax, national abortions, the Federal Reserve Bank (we're now $60 Trillion in debt), different income tax rates, confiscating people's gold, going off the gold and silver standard, etc. These are all radical changes to the principles of limited government found in the Constitution that should have required an amendment. And if it is too difficult to pass an amendment, then pass an amendment changing the rules on passing future amendments.Make it 51% vs. 67% or something. However they were able to pass an amendment giving themselves a raise every session without having to vote on it. This is the only amendment passed in the last 35 years.
 
389Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 13:18
Only a slight exageration, SZ.
 
390Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 13:47
Not quite as bad as I expected. Still the trend is there.
 
391Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 14:21
By my count there were 20 threads out of 114 specifically related to the MJ or the War on Drugs. BFD.
 
392sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 14:32
As a comparative...how many times has Baldy attemtped to invoke the Terri Schiavo case into various conversations/discussions? (see post 378 for an example)
 
393Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 14:38
Aside from Jag and his constant derision of liberals at any and all cost (most notably to his own credibility), I don't think there are any real one-trick-ponies here. I think Tree fell into that mold a number of years back when he seemingly started a new thread with Bush in the title almost every day, but I think he eventually accepted the criticism for that and moved on.
 
394Perm Dude
      ID: 5774518
      Wed, Aug 01, 2007, 11:29
After refusing to "slow down" his investigation into Purdue Pharma (maker of OxyContin), USA Brownlee gets put "on the list"
 
395Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Nov 28, 2007, 14:22
Reason Hit & Run: FDA-approves study of MDMA's effectiveness as a treatment for postraumatic stress disorder
The MDMA research marks an amazing turnaround for a substance that was hastily banned by the DEA in the mid-1980s and that more recently has been tarred as a brain-damaging party drug. As the Post explains, MDMA's partial rehabilitation is largely due to the efforts of Rick Doblin and his Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. MAPS has raised the money for the Mithoefer trial and other studies aimed at testing the medical or psychotherapeutic value of currently banned substances, and it has led the way through the bureaucratic maze that must be traversed to obtain legal approval for such research. Its ultimate goal is to make Schedule I substances such as MDMA, LSD, ibogaine, and marijuana available by prescription.

Although MAPS is dedicated to working within the system, the Post notes that Doblin's vision of pharmacological freedom, which the researchers with whom he collaborates do not necessarily share, goes beyond moving a few drugs from one schedule to another:
Doblin is frank about his passionate desire to defuse the drug war, which he believes is counterproductive and an assault on personal liberties. He doesn't think the government should be able to tell Americans what to put in their bodies, and he has even volunteered in interviews that he sometimes finds it useful to consider important personal and strategic issues with psychedelic assistance. He acknowledges that his outspokenness caused a schism in the original coalition that fought against relegating MDMA to Schedule I—many of his colleagues wanted to stress their support for the criminalization of any nonprescription use. He has seen it jeopardize one of his most prized accomplishments—MAPS funding of the Harvard MDMA-cancer study almost killed it. Doblin had to withdraw MAPS as a sponsor and persuade a donor to give the money directly to Harvard instead. He must realize he is handing his critics a potent argument, i.e.: Don't be fooled by the careful science and limited goals of the current studies; the real goal is unrestricted use of psychedelic drugs.

So, why does he do it? "Sometimes, it's just a relief to say, 'This is what I believe,'" Doblin says.

Also linked in the article is this WAPO article from the front page of Sunday's paper.
THE BED IS TILTING!

Or the couch, or whatever. A futon. Slanted.

She hadn't noticed it before, but now she can't stop noticing. Like the princess and the pea.

By objective measure, the tilt is negligible, a fraction of an inch, but she can't be fooled by appearances, not with the sleep mask on. In her inner darkness, the slight tilt magnifies, and suddenly she feels as if she might slide off, and that idea makes her giggle.

"I feel really, really weird," she says. "Crooked!"

Donna Kilgore laughs, a high-pitched sound that contains both thrill and anxiety. That she feels anything at all, anything other than the weighty, oppressive numbness that has filled her for 11 years, is enough in itself to make her giddy.

But there is something more at work inside her, something growing from the little white capsule she swallowed just minutes ago. She's subject No. 1 in a historic experiment, the first U.S. government-sanctioned research in two decades into the potential of psychedelic drugs to treat psychiatric disorders. This 2004 session in the office of a Charleston, S.C., psychiatrist is being recorded on audiocassettes, which Donna will later hand to a journalist.

The tape reveals her reaction as she listens to the gentle piano music playing in her headphones. Behind her eyelids, movies begin to unreel. She tries to say what she sees: Cars careening down the wrong side of the road. Vivid images of her oldest daughter, then all three of her children. She's overcome with an all-consuming love, a love she thought she'd lost forever.

"Now I feel all warm and fuzzy," she announces. "I'm not nervous anymore."

"What level of distress do you feel right now?" a deeply mellow voice beside her asks.

Donna answers with a giggle. "I don't think I got the placebo," she says.
 
396Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Nov 28, 2007, 14:30
By the way, for a terrific example of how liberals and conservatives in this forum used to disagree and argue while remaining largely civil see the first 160 or so posts in this thread.
 
397Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Nov 28, 2007, 17:46
"I don't think I got the placebo,"

That made my day. Nice article, MITH. Be careful with that stuff, Donna, if you take another "non-placebo" capsule some people here will call you an addict.
 
398holt
      ID: 129202215
      Wed, Nov 28, 2007, 19:37
re 396, just want to make the point that opposition to the war on drugs isn't strictly a liberal position. There are plenty in Congress who you would consider liberal (at least, liberals vote for them) who don't seem to have much interest in ending the war on drugs. Meanwhile, you've got the National Review declaring the war on drugs a colossal failure and calling for its end.

My personal opposition to the war on drugs comes from the same beliefs that tell me that States rights should be expanded while Federal powers are reigned back in. Definitely not a liberal viewpoint, as most liberals prefer to see Federal programs and oversight expanded.

Anyway, point is that not all who are opposed to the war on drugs are liberals. Yeah, I know everyone knows that. Just a reminder.
 
399Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Nov 28, 2007, 19:58
Agreed. Though the issue of states rights vs federal powers is very much a mixed bag. Consider the left's greater opposition to reaching federal authoritarian measures like the Patriot Act.

Anyway, it's been suggested by at least one conservative in this forum that a Republican president would have a much easier time ending the drug war. Most Dems are too afraid to touch it for fear of being labled soft on crime by the right. A Republican with a strong anti-crime record could probabaly pull it off, especially if associated spending cuts are properly touted.
 
400Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 21:47
Only peripherally relevant, but I always like to point out Prosecutors who understand that they aren't the lawyers for the police, particularly when the police are violating the Constitution:

Prosecutor: No crime in photo of undercover officer


Randy Sievert did not commit a crime when he snapped a photo of an undercover Manatee County sheriff's vehicle from the road, a state prosecutor said this week in a case that has drawn national attention.

Deputies confronted Sievert in February and ordered him to erase any photos he took standing at the scene of a drug-related search warrant. Authorities called Sievert a "known" drug dealer whose photos jeopardized officer safety. Sievert, 20, was charged with interfering in a search warrant.

A person cannot be charged with obstruction or resisting arrest if the police detention is unlawful, an assistant state attorney, Tony Casoria, said in a memo released this week. Sievert did not physically interfere with the search warrant, the prosecutor said.

Casoria said Sievert "took a photograph in a public place, across the street from the home where law enforcement were conducting their search."

Sievert's attorney, Charles Britt III, has challenged the merits of the prosecution, calling the arrest unlawful. Journalists routinely snap photos at crime scenes, the attorney said.

"The police would hardly arrest a member of the media or anyone else standing and watching for doing the same thing," Britt said in court papers.

That deputies did not like what Sievert was doing, Britt said, did not make it a crime. Britt said authorities targeted Sievert because of his past drug crimes. Sievert's arrest, he said, stemmed from "contempt of cop."

Britt said "common sense" would dictate that, if authorities do not want undercover vehicles identified by the public, the cars and trucks should not be driven to locations that are being hit with a search warrant.......



It is often troubling - the degree of lawlessness that the War on Drugs invokes in some law enforcement...



 
401Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 22:38
By the way, for a terrific example of how liberals and conservatives in this forum used to disagree and argue while remaining largely civil see the first 160 or so posts in this thread. - MITH

That is more due to that fact that we happened to have the rare circumstance of largly agreeing with liberals on this issue. This is not being civil, it's being on the same side.

So unless you can find another issue we agree on and get your trolls under control instead of patting them on the head, you can skip dreaming of the good ole days.

And by the way, Jag and Boxman aren't remotely trolls and you can stop pretending they are. I find it highly uncivil of you. It's not their fault that they don't go all the way back to the first couple years of rotoguru's existance and so don't get the only civility bonus ever handed out to consrvatives.
 
402biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 22:48
I agree on Boxman.

I promise can point to 10 circumstances where all Jag is doing is trolling for a vehement reaction, to any one Jag post you can point to that has value.

Look up troll in wikipedia, and there's a picture of Jag.
 
403Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 23:27
There are countless valuable posts from Jag. At least ten of his to every one Tree's ever posted. Possibly 30/1, or more. And he's not around a tenth as much.

So he enjoys giving you a good tweak, Bili? I don't?
 
404biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 23:37
I'd don't mind a tweak. Really.

That's not what he does. When I engage him, when I try to get more than thoughtless drivel from him, he vanishes. He really is the very definition of a troll. The exact type of person that was envisioned when the term was coined. To a tee. Go look it up.

I challenge you to find a post you thing is worthwhile, authored by Jag. I can't think of any, but if you say there are some, I believe you. Point me to them.

For every one you find, I'll find 10 troll feces he's squatted down and shat out.

Just remember, if you hold something stinky up as quality, your standard of quality diminishes in everyone's eyes.

Tree and I have had our disagreements in the past, and he certainly has engaged in trollish behavior from time to time. However his posts have diminished in quantity and he really has tried to improve the quality, though he certainly backslides. I'm not going to defend him, but there really is no comparison to Jag.
 
405Boldwin
      ID: 463471413
      Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 23:56
It's been a long day Bili. I'll show you later.
 
406Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Thu, May 08, 2008, 13:19
Mississippi Drug War Blues; Corey Mayes, the movie
 
407Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 14:31
It is often troubling - the degree of lawlessness that the War on Drugs invokes in some law enforcement...

Or those pretending to be law enforcement.

Guy with fake badge cons small town mayor and police into letting him raid homes without warrants to root out meth scourge. "I'm a federal agent, I don't need a warrant".
And the questions keep coming. How did Mr. Jakob wander into town and apparently leave the mayor, the aldermen and pretty much everyone else he met thinking that he was a federal agent delivered from Washington to help barrel into peoples’ homes and clean up Gerald’s drug problem? And why would anyone — receiving no pay and with no known connection to little Gerald, 70 miles from St. Louis and not even a county seat — want to carry off such a time-consuming ruse in the first place? There were numerous arrests during Mr. Jakob’s time in Gerald (the exact number is uncertain, local law enforcement officials said, as legal action surrounding the case proceeds), but Mayor Schulte said that Mr. Jakob had, in fact, gone to elaborate lengths to deceive local authorities, including Ryan McCrary, then the police chief, into believing that he was a federal agent — with the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Marshals Service or some other agency.

In addition to having a badge and a car that seemed to scream law enforcement, Mr. Jakob offered federal drug enforcement help, Mr. Schulte said. (Local officials thought the offer must have somehow grown out of their recent application for a federal grant for radio equipment.) Mr. Jakob even asked Chief McCrary to call what he said was his supervisor’s telephone number to confirm Gerald’s need for his help, the mayor said.

When the call was placed, a woman — whose identity is unknown — answered with the words “multijurisdictional task force,” and said that the city’s request for federal services was under review, the mayor said. Mr. Schulte said he now suspects that Mr. Jakob adapted the nonexistent task force name from the “Beverly Hills Cop” movies starring Eddie Murphy.

"We're not going to fall for the 'banana in the tailpipe' trick!"
 
408Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 17:49
This sounds like something that would happen to Mayor Quimby on The Simpsons.
 
409Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 18:32
Yeah, has bad sitcom plot written all over it. Maybe "Carter Country".

It's sad how "the Feds" make local law enforcement types wetting thei pants all the time. Locals have abdicated some much repsonsiblity to Washington, usually, as in this case, because they are blinded by the prospect of Federal funds - funds that never should have been sent off to Washington in the first place.

Zen -When is your animosity for the War on Drugs going to make a principled State's Righter out of you?
 
410biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 18:48
Carter Country. Wow. I that show hadn't tickled a brain cell in 20 years.
 
411Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Sun, Sep 21, 2008, 23:59
Here's the face of a soon-to-be ex-attorney



As many as 35 drug forfeiture cases and companion criminal cases are being sought by the Indiana Supreme Court Disciplinary Commission in its ongoing probe of allegations against Delaware County Prosecutor Mark McKinney.
McKinney signed off on a default judgment in Delaware Circuit Court 4 that allowed the DTF to keep $2,898 seized when Lampkins was arrested. In his role as attorney for the DTF in forfeiture proceedings, McKinney was paid $740.25 in that case, along with 25 percent of proceeds raised through the auction of seized property. A full-time county prosecutor in Indiana is prohibited from having a private law practice. In another case, McKinney was paid $4,415 -- and the same 25 percent in auction proceeds -- for his forfeiture work in the case of convicted cocaine dealer Terry Pounds, sentenced to 30 years in prison in 2006.

Here's a link to the Findings & Report on this mess.

Civil forfeiture & and war on drugs are two great immoralities that just get worse and worse together. Greedy drug warriors are a scourge and I'm glad this clown is getting his comeuppance.
 
412Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 13:35
Another day, another opportunity for border patrol officers to ruin the lives of innocent people.
When Ron and Nadine from the Living Libations beauty care and chocolate company (www.LivingLibations.com) attempted to fly to the United States in August of this year, they ran into something completely unexpected: Drug-sniffing dogs at the Toronto airport. When their dogs took a special interest in their raw, unrefined chocolate with hemp seeds and superfood extracts, they were arrested, handcuffed and put through hours of tortuous interrogation. Such begins the journey of Ron and Nadine, the chocolate freedom fighters from Canada. Accused of trafficking two and a half pounds of hashish (which was really just raw, homemade chocolate), Ron and Nadine were arrested, physically separated into interrogation rooms and handcuffed to chairs. Their six-month old baby was forcibly taken from them, and they were immediately subjected to intense interrogation.

Read on, because it happens again on the US side. $22,000 in legal fees later, they should be bitter. This is ridiculous.
 
413Seattle Zen
      ID: 23412711
      Mon, Apr 27, 2009, 18:21
2009 has brought on a HUGE number of drug reform editorials from every corner of the main stream media. Here's a great example:

Drug decriminalization: a sensible middle ground
America's "drug war" myth has been that anything short of severe criminal penalties leads to massive drug abuse, escalating crime and worse. But in Portugal, none of the predicted parade of horrors has occurred. Decriminalization — rather than legalization — could this be the sane middle ground we need here, too?

I've been reading a lot about Portugal's decriminalization program started this decade. In short, it works.

Or we could continue to search for these...


A Coast Guard cutter spotted a strange blur on the ocean 100 miles off Costa Rica. As the cutter approached, what appeared to be three snorkels poking up out of the water became visible. Then something even more surprising was discovered attached to the air pipes: a homemade submarine carrying four men, an AK-47 and three tons of cocaine.

They can carry ten tons of cocaine and are believed to deliver 30% of Columbia's coke into the US.
 
414Perm Dude
      ID: 19424713
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 21:01
Seattle police chief named Drug "Czar".

Zen, what do you think?
 
415Seattle Zen
      ID: 57432710
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 23:18
I like it. I talked briefly about him in another thread. He believes in Harm Reduction, he will be the best "Drug Czar" there has ever been. Don't be surprised if that title gets retired.
 
416Seattle Zen
      ID: 274451410
      Thu, May 14, 2009, 12:58
Well, that was quick.

White House Czar Calls for End to 'War on Drugs'

Kerlikowske Says Analogy Is Counterproductive; Shift Aligns With Administration Preference for Treatment Over Incarceration.
 
417biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Thu, May 14, 2009, 18:19
I could do without the "War" analogy for non-military efforts entirely. You set yourself up to lose, unless you somehow attain a nearly impossible goal - victory.

Poverty doesn't ever pull out the white flag and cry uncle.

There is always going to be someone who will benefit from a bit of fun Sunday afternoon terror. No possible way to win that one.

The war on drugs has always been the silliest, I think. Just because it's so misguided and anti-productive. Actually making the problems drug cause exponentially worse without making much of anything better.

Maybe declare a war on wars. I could get behind that.
 
418Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, May 20, 2009, 16:09
A poorly roled one, at best. You'd think they'd have more pride about that sort of thing in BC.
 
419Perm Dude
      ID: 174121611
      Wed, May 20, 2009, 16:09
The Olympic Toke
 
420Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, May 20, 2009, 16:11
beat you.
 
421Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 22, 2009, 12:21
Tom Tancredo (!) steps up for legalization.
 
422Seattle Zen
      ID: 57382117
      Fri, Aug 21, 2009, 18:38
As of today, Mexico allows personal use of all drugs.

Mexico now has perhaps the most progressive drug policy in the Americas, if not the world. Decriminalized possession of small amounts of drugs, free treatment for those who need it.
Mexican authorities said the change just recognized the long-standing practice here of not prosecuting people caught with small amounts of drugs that they could reasonably claim were for personal use, while setting rules and limits.

Under previous law, possession of any amount of drugs was punishable by stiff jail sentences, but there was leeway for addicts caught with smaller amounts. In practice, nobody was prosecuted and sentenced to jail for small-time possession, said Bernardo Espino del Castillo, the coordinator of state offices for the attorney general’s office.
 
423Boldwin
      ID: 1693915
      Thu, Oct 01, 2009, 08:35
Maybe it's even healthy?
 
425Boldwin
      ID: 2155174
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 08:26
SZ's America.
 
426Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 08:03
Via Connor Friedersdorf: What Happens When You Wage a War on Drugs


Mark Thompson:
It should be on every evening news broadcast tonight. It depicts what real, actual tyranny looks like, and how it has become a regular, everyday occurence in the United States of America.

What is so remarkable about this video is precisely that it is so unremarkable, depicting something that happens up to 40,000 times a year. Indeed, perhaps nothing proves how common this is more than the calm, cool, and thoroughly routine manner in which the agents of tyranny carry out their task, quickly disposing of the family dogs (one of which was a corgi) and filling the victim’s home with bullets within, literally, moments. All in front of what looks to be the victim’s six or seven year old son.

The cops did recover a “small” amount of marijuana though, which was apparently enough to charge the parents with child endangerment. Somehow, the people who riddled that child’s home with bullets, killed that child’s pets, and forcibly removed that child’s father – all while the child was looking – were not charged with child endangerment.

When the government has the right to bust into tens of thousands of homes in the middle of the night, unannounced, with guns drawn and in full military armor, to take the life of beloved family members, and to menace 6-year old children, all because the homeowner is believed to possess a few grams of a plant or a non-explosive substance, tyranny cannot be said to be on the way. It’s already here. And President Obama wasn’t the one who created it, either.

I will believe that conservatives and the American Right view the words “liberty” and “tyranny” as something other than politically effective platitudes when they make putting an end to 40,000 raids like this a year a higher priority than whether they are taxed to provide someone else with health care or the unrealized hypothetical consequences of cap and trade.

The longer I’m around, and the more I despair about movement conservatism as a whole, the more I’m impressed by two right-leaning organizations, Cato and Reason, for bankrolling the important work done by Mr. Balko, Julian Sanchez on surveillance, and other staffers too numerous to mention here, whose output I don’t just respect, but judge to be vital. The same goes for the Institute for Justice’s work on asset forfeiture, and a few other organizations on the right whose work often overlaps with left-leaning folks at the ACLU and similar organizations.

Health care and cap and trade are important issues, and the policy choices made do have implications for personal and political freedom, but one effect of demagoguery about “liberty and tyranny,” and the supposed embrace of statism by the whole left, is that it obscures or even poisons alliances between right and left against actual abuses that are going on now, and all that is gained are cheap, largely inconsequential political points on issues that at most concern predicted abuses at the end of a slippery slope that we aren’t yet careening down.

I don’t know if Brink Lindsey and Will Wilkinson can succeed at their very-much-worth-trying liberaltarian project, but I wish that one way or another, liberty-minded folks on right and left can refrain from demonizing one another about their disagreements enough to cooperate on drugs, prison, detainee policy, and all other matters related to wars without end.
 
427Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 08:15
Apparently this is the original blog post on the story.
 
428Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 08:22
They were serving a search warrant.
A man arrested on suspicion of drug charges and child endangerment said he is concerned with the actions of police who shot two dogs they described as “aggressive” while serving a drug-related search warrant at his home earlier this month in southwest Columbia.

Police arrested Jonathan E. Whitworth, 25, of 1501 Kinloch Court on Feb. 11 on suspicion of possession of drug paraphernalia, possession of marijuana and second-degree child endangerment.



A police SWAT team entered Whitworth’s residence around 8:30 p.m. suspecting a large amount of marijuana at the location, police spokeswoman Officer Jessie Haden said. SWAT members encountered a pit bull upon entry, held back and then fatally shot the dog, which officers said was acting in an uncontrollably aggressive manner.

Whitworth was arrested, and his wife and 7-year-old son were present during the SWAT raid, Haden said. A second dog, which Whitworth’s attorney Jeff Hilbrenner described as a corgi, also was shot but was not killed.


[The ferocious Welsh Corgi -mith]

“The family is concerned with what happened,” Hilbrenner said. “We don’t feel like what happened in the home was appropriate. The priority right now for us is the misdemeanor charges.”

Police discovered a grinder, a pipe and a small amount of marijuana, Haden said. Because the SWAT team acts on the most updated information available, the team wanted to enter the house before marijuana believed to be at the location could be distributed, she said.

“If you let too much time go by, then the drugs are not there,” she said.

Drug distributors traditionally have a history with firearms, which is why the SWAT team is used when executing such warrants, Haden said. If the SWAT team believed they could have executed the warrant successfully during the daytime when the wife and child were not present, they would have, she said.

 
429Boldwin
      ID: 183112613
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 09:11
What? No picture of the cute little pit bull?
 
431Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 09:38
Rather than further allow myself to be baited by Boldwin's combative and utterly pointless nitpicking and seeing the discussion distracted by the politics a photo of a weiner dog (which, of all the elements to this story, was for some reason the first thing thing that struck him as warranting a response) I'll just repost a few key sentences from Thompsion's comments:
tyranny cannot be said to be on the way. It’s already here. And President Obama wasn’t the one who created it, either.

I will believe that conservatives and the American Right view the words “liberty” and “tyranny” as something other than politically effective platitudes when they make putting an end to 40,000 raids like this a year a higher priority than whether they are taxed to provide someone else with health care or the unrealized hypothetical consequences of cap and trade.
...

Health care and cap and trade are important issues, and the policy choices made do have implications for personal and political freedom, but one effect of demagoguery about “liberty and tyranny,” and the supposed embrace of statism by the whole left, is that it obscures or even poisons alliances between right and left against actual abuses that are going on now, and all that is gained are cheap, largely inconsequential political points on issues that at most concern predicted abuses at the end of a slippery slope that we aren’t yet careening down.
 
432Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 09:51
I would think he'd be all over that issue. Stormtroppers coming into the dead of night looking for small bits of drugs, shooting pets, then charging the parents with child endangerment.

Andrew Sullivan had this post yesterday, complete with video.
 
433Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 10:03
very clearly, these citizens are on the road to marxism.

anyway - about 15 years ago, while my cousin was in college, there was a police raid on his house. Matt had 4 roommates, 3 of which were frat brothers, and the fourth of which was a friend of a friend.

one of them was selling weed out of his bedroom, hence the raid. the police kicked in the door, and shot Matt's year old Golden Lab puppy on sight. Matt was tossed onto his stomach on the floor, and cuffed, and for 3 hours laid there with his dog less than 2 feet from his eyes, watching his puppy bleed out and die over that time.

when cops do this stuff, it's disgusting.

on the bright side, it gave Matt direction and made him figure out what he wanted to do with his life, and now he's a veterinarian in NYC.
 
434Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 11:43
I've long said that the paramilitary turn local law enforcement has taken is as disturbing as anything going on. Shooting family pets is outrageous and possibly criminal without just cause.

However, it's not correct to say these guys were looking for "a small bit of drugs" That's not what this was about, PD. Do you really think they send in the SWAT team looking for some Dude's personal stash. They thought they were searching a major dealer. My guess: they had the righ guy and got there too late It is common for major dealers to keep agressive dogs on premises to allow for time to dispose of evidence. If you want meaningful drug interdiction, given probable cause, this is what you get. (Now, I'd scrap the whole system of drug laws, because it's not worth these scemes to me, but that's not these cops problem)

If you're going to believe everthing that someone's defense lawyer says about an encounter, prepare for life being perpetually duped.
 
435Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 11:50
prepare for life being perpetually duped

I did and I am ;)
 
436Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 12:36
I believe that cops, like everyone else, make mistakes. Unlike everyone else, cops have guns and police powers which make their mistakes much larger when they occur.

They also have a bureaucracy behind them which is self-justifying.

My point in #432 isn't to point out the problem with cops. It is to point out the problem with drug laws the cops are asked to enforce through these types of techniques.
 
437Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 16:42
If you're going to believe everything that someone's defense lawyer says...

actually, the correct answer is -

prepare for a life rich with verse, passion, wisdom and grace.

Don't know how you got that one so screwed up, MBJ.
 
438Boldwin
      ID: 183112613
      Thu, May 06, 2010, 17:00
I was just playing with you, MITH. Yes, I have long been against the militarization of the police, the drug war, the seizure laws that are often behind these types of raids.

Plenty of people get accidentally shot and killed in these mistaken ID raids as well. Plenty of very very dirty raids premeditated for police department profit.
 
439Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 08:34
Follow up
COLUMBIA ¡ª For the second time in less than a week, Columbia Police Chief Ken Burton stood in front of reporters and announced changes in the way his department uses a SWAT team.

"We did some things wrong," Burton said at the Monday afternoon press conference held at the Columbia Police Department. "And I'm telling you, it won't happen again."

Several officers packed the doorways behind the press corps, listening to their chief as he outlined changes he called "unpopular" among some in the department.

The changes include:

¡öA captain in charge of the area where the raid is to take place has to approve the operation.

¡öThe location has to be under constant surveillance once the warrant has been issued.

¡öA raid is not to take place when children are present except "under the most extreme circumstances," Burton said.


The raid came eight days after police obtained the warrant on tips from two confidential informants.


Adding to the intrigue was the possibility of a high-profile test for the Citizens Police Review Board, which could come from a complaint filed by someone not involved in Whitworth's case. Anyone is allowed to file a complaint with the department if they are dissatisfied with police conduct, said Columbia Police Department spokeswoman Jessie Haden.

Haden called a complaint "superfluous" since the department is still wrapping up its internal investigation, expected to be completed later this week. But once the internal review is complete, the path could be open for a complaint about the review's findings that can be appealed to the review board, said board chairwoman Ellen LoCurto-Martinez.

¡°We can¡¯t do anything at this point as far as an actual investigation, but we are supposed to review Police Department policies and procedures,¡± said LoCurto-Martinez.

The review board has also moved their 7 p.m. Wednesday meeting from the Armory Sports and Community Center to the council chambers in City Hall.

¡°We¡¯re expecting a lot of people from the public to be attending, so we wanted to find a place that was a bit larger,¡± said LoCurto-Martinez, who also said the board had been swamped with letters and e-mails from people across the nation who are outraged by the incident.


In Monday's press conference, Burton said feedback to the department seemed to be coming from three discrete groups, some of whom he believed were reacting to bad information.

"The biggest group seems to be the marijuana legalization advocates," Burton said, who he urged to lobby policymakers if they wanted a change in the law.

The next group were animal rights advocates. Burton lamented the death of the Whitworth's pit bull, but had a do-what-you-gotta-do outlook on the SWAT team's handling of dogs, calling human safety the "primary" concern.

And the last group?

"The last group is the people that hate us anyway, for whatever reason," Burton said. "And I don't put any stock into what they say. There are cop haters out there, and that's just something we'll have to live with."

While the incident has prompted decision-making changes in handling of drug raids ¡ª such as Burton's Thursday announcement that raids would now be served within eight hours after police obtain a warrant ¡ª the department's policies on the tactical treatment of dogs and suspects remain unchanged.

So has Burton learned anything from the incident?

"I hate the Internet," he deadpanned.


 
440Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 09:44
War on Drugs has met none of its goals

And the Obama administration has done nothing to stem the insanity. They seem intent on throwing even more money down the rabbit hole.

This week President Obama promised to "reduce drug use and the great damage it causes" with a new national policy that he said treats drug use more as a public health issue and focuses on prevention and treatment.

Nevertheless, his administration has increased spending on interdiction and law enforcement to record levels both in dollars and in percentage terms; this year, they account for $10 billion of his $15.5 billion drug-control budget.


 
441Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 09:50
Why it's created a wonderful monopoly for the cartels.
 
442biliruben
      ID: 113582522
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 09:55
Balko

Last week, a Columbia, Missouri, drug raid captured on video went viral. As of this morning, the video had garnered 950,000 views on YouTube. It has lit up message boards, blogs, and discussion groups around the Web, unleashing anger, resentment and even, regrettably, calls for violence against the police officers who conducted the raid. I’ve been writing about and researching these raids for about five years, including raids that claimed the lives of innocent children, grandmothers, college students, and bystanders. Innocent families have been terrorized by cops who raided on bad information, or who raided the wrong home due to some careless mistake. There’s never been a reaction like this one.

But despite all the anger the raid has inspired, the only thing unusual thing here is that the raid was captured on video, and that the video was subsequently released to the press. Everything else was routine. Save for the outrage coming from Columbia residents themselves, therefore, the mass anger directed at the Columbia Police Department over the last week is misdirected. Raids just like the one captured in the video happen 100-150 times every day in America. Those angered by that video should probably look to their own communities. Odds are pretty good that your local police department is doing the same thing.



It’s heartening that nearly a million people have now seen the Columbia video. But it needs some context. The officers in that video aren’t rogue cops. They’re no different than other SWAT teams across the country. The raid itself is no different from the tens of thousands of drug raids carried out each year in the U.S. If the video is going to effect any change, the Internet anger directed at the Columbia Police Department needs to be redirected to America’s drug policy in general. Calling for the heads of the Columbia SWAT team isn’t going to stop these raids. Calling for the heads of the politicians who defend these tactics and promote a “war on drugs” that’s become all too literal—that just might.

 
443Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 10:20
it's created a wonderful monopoly for the cartels.

Except, as the link in #440 points out:

Records indicate marijuana and prescription drug abuse are climbing, while cocaine use is way down

Then again, I suppose some of the prescription drug companies could be considered cartels.
 
444Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 13:51
Feds Move to Throw Pot Smokers in Prison for Impaired Driving

Did you smoke pot last month and drive a car this morning? Obama wants to arrest and incarcerate you.

If you smoked marijuana last week or even last month and you drive a car, you may be sent to prison under new guidelines drafted by the federal government.

The Obama administration released its National Drug Control Strategy guidelines last week. The federal government wants all of the states to adopt its authoritarian and draconian diktat and expand the drug war. From the guidelines:

Encourage States To Adopt Per Se Drug Impairment Laws [ONDCP]. State laws regarding impaired driving are varied, but most State codes do not contain a separate offense for driving under the influence of drugs (DUID). Therefore, few drivers are identified, prosecuted, or convicted for DUID. Law enforcement personnel usually cite individuals with the easier to prove driving while intoxicated (DWI) alcohol charges. Unclear laws provide vague signals both to drivers and to law enforcement, thereby minimizing the possible preventive benefit of DUID statutes. Fifteen states have passed laws clarifying that the presence of any illegal drug in a driver’s body is per se evidence of impaired driving. ONDCP will work to expand the use of this standard to other states and explore other ways to increase the enforcement of existing DUID laws.

Cannabis metabolites can remain detectable in the urine for up to 100 days or longer for a regular cannabis consumer and up to fifteen days for the casual consumer, according to NORML, the marijuana advocacy organization. In other words, even if a pot smoker is conscientious and does not drive while intoxicated, that person can be arrested and convicted for DUID days or weeks after consuming marijuana. It would not matter if you are sober as a teetotaler — if THC molecules are detected with a urine or blood test, you are probably going to prison. You can kiss the right to vote and own a firearm sayonara

National Drug Control Strategy
 
445Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 14:13
building 7, as somebody in the auto insurance industry I think that law is fantastic.

Fact is right now pot IS illegal and it can impair a driver. Getting tougher stricter guidelines on drugs in general is fine. Your beef should not be with this law as it is. Your beef should be with having pot included on the same schedule as cocaine and heroin.

And even if by some miracle pot is taken off of that schedule and becomes legal, it should still be illegal to use it and drive, just like alcohol.
 
446biliruben
      ID: 113582522
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 15:53
You miss the point, Khahan.

If you drink last night, and are hungover today, you can drive all you want even if still impaired, without fear of prosecution (assuming you BAC is now below legal limit).

If you smoked last month, and have any detectable amount in the system, you can be prosecuted, even if you aren't and haven't been impaired in weeks.
 
447Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 16:51
Great post B7.

I agree with Bili, Khahan, you are not understanding what it means to have a marijuana metabolite in your urine. There are millions of stone cold sober people in America right now who will test positive for THC in their urine. Do you really believe that they should be guilty of DUI, for marijuana smoked weeks ago? Really?
 
448Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 17:38
There should be a legal limit, however, like alcohol. Having a small BAC while driving isn't enough to get an influence charge.

Is there an way to measure thc levels quickly and portably?
 
449Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 17:50
Is there an way to measure thc levels quickly and portably?

No. It can only be done by blood draw.
 
450Boldwin
      ID: 19438215
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 07:00
The Frito-Lay stimulous package in the passenger seat is only indicative, not actually diagnostic.
 
451Frick
      ID: 35438217
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 08:38
Do those who support the legalization of marijuana feel that driving while impaired should be punished at a similar level to driving while intoxicated?

If so, how should the level of impairment be measured?
 
452biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 08:57
Why don't we first find out, through testing, what that level of impairment is.

Give me a lb of BC bud, a Maserati and closed course, and I'll back to you.

The problem is the government has not allowed almost any research on marijuana to be done, so these are unanswered questions.

My personal of experience from my youth is I would drive extremely cautiously, but get lost a lot.
 
453Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:03
If by impaired you mean high on illegal drugs other than alcohol, I think the fact that you cannot easily determine someone's level of impairment or how much he has consumed is a good reason for why the two shouldn't carry the same punishment. Maybe that's what you were getting at.
 
454Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:40
Do those who support the legalization of marijuana feel that driving while impaired should be punished at a similar level to driving while intoxicated?

driving while impaired is driving while impaired. booze, drugs, texting, whatever.
 
455Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:45
Here's a test. Get two friends. Have one drink $10 of cheap whiskey. Have the other smoke $10 of cheap weed. Decide which one you want to drive you home.
 
456biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:51
I don't agree.

As a society, we are tolerant of some level of impairment while driving. Driving while sleepy is extremely dangerous, perhaps more dangerous than blowing a .10, yet we let long-haul truckers driving 40 tons of death at 70 mph go for 10, 12 hour stretches without a rest.

The questions are:

1) What level of impairment is acceptable,
2) how do we measure it,
3) how do we detect it?

Are we going to measure actual performance, which is harder, more subjective but fairer?

Or are we going to measure what we think may cause declined performance, such as earbuds, cell phones, drugs, alcohol, 3 screaming brats, applying eye make-up, eating a scone, drinking a latte, being a teenager with other teens in the car, heavy petting, getting a blow-job...

Whatever.

They are less subjective measures, but the level of impairment is questionable, and probably differs substantially by individual, and their level of experience driving while doing that activity.

I would prefer we police based actual performance behind the wheel, but doing that objectively and proving it in court is problematic.
 
457biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:58
This is not just academic for me, btw.

I've been hit on my bike twice in the last year by cabbies - one was clearly too tired to be driving and perhaps on stimulants, the other was simply inattentive and driving erratically and unpredictably.
 
458Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:58
I would prefer we police based actual performance behind the wheel

Sure, but this would preclude blood alcohol levels being used as proof of impairment. The police don't have to wait for a guy to perform poorly to stop him from doing so if he fails a test.
 
459biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:59
Yes they do. Zen can chime in here, but you have to have probable cause to pull someone over.
 
460Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:50
The police don't have to wait for a guy to perform poorly to stop him from doing so if he fails a test.

I don't understand this sentence.

There have been a lot of scientific studies that show that, regardless of tolerance, anyone who blows a .08 is impaired. For every other drug, no such studies have been done. Drug DUI trials are filed with speculation and, quite often, police and prosecutorial exaggeration.

The nanny-state powers behind the drive for "per se" Drug DUI statutes want you to believe that our nation is overrun with people who flout the public's safety by getting high, driving, and frustrating the police's attempts to charge them. What will become obvious to all if such laws were strictly enforced is that half of the elderly gentlemen and little old ladies on the road are going to be going to jail because their blood is going to test positive for something and they can't stand on one leg.
 
461Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:57
Drunk drivers are 10 times worse than high drivers IMO.
 
462Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:59
Which is why the police aren't simply statute-enforcing robots.

There have been a lot of scientific studies that show that, regardless of tolerance, anyone who blows a .08 is impaired.

My point isn't that such numbers, if they exist, aren't biased beyond use. It is that there is no scientific reason why we can't arrive at numbers, testing methodology and so on in order to come to the same agreement about weed as we do about alcohol.

And I think the pro-legalization crowd would do itself a favor in the argument by refraining from talking about cell phones, kids, and so in its efforts to allow those with a little weed in their system to join in the distraction bandwagon. The best parallel isn't other distractions while we drive but drinking, and pro-legalization arguments would have more traction if it included some commonsense calls for objective scientific impairment studies research to arrive at some reasonable way to allow those not actively high on the road.
 
463Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 11:25
pro-legalization arguments would have more traction if it included some commonsense calls for objective scientific impairment studies research to arrive at some reasonable way to allow those not actively high on the road.

Everyone who is not "actively high" is allowed on the road. In fact, plenty of people who are "currently high" are allowed on the road because their level of "high" does not impair them.

Here's just one study done by NHTSA in 1993

You are not going to like some of these conclusions - It is not possible to conclude anything about a driver's impairment on the basis of his/her plasma concentrations of THC and THC-COOH determined in a single sample.

The most important conclusion, in my mind - The maximum road tracking impairment after the highest THC dose (300 ug/kg) was within a range of effects produced by many commonly used medicinal drugs and less than that associated with a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) of 0.08g% in previous studies employing the same test.
 
464Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 12:03
You are not going to like some of these conclusions

This isn't about what I like. And this isn't an argument between something I want and something you want.

The more difficult it is to measure impairment-producing drugs for drivers the more difficult it will be to legalize the drug for non-medical uses.
 
465biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 12:51
I have no idea what that last post is suppose to mean.

Could you rephrase?

It may just be that scientists and politician can no longer
communicate.
 
466Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 13:16
At least, as a Democrat, we're still talking!

My point is simply that having more impaired drivers on the road is a legitimate concern for people, should the drug be legalized. It behooves those who advocate for the legalization to address that concern, probably using how we deal with drinking and driving as a model.

Zen seems focused on showing how one simply can't get there from here.
 
467biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 13:30
Well, drugs that are inhaled vs ingested have very different
duration and functional impacts.

Alcohol is not a good model. I'm not saying that a test which
correlates well with function couldn't be developed, simply
that a blood test measuring thc isn't a good test.
 
468Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 13:35
Sure. But that is a scientific question. I think the pro-legalization supporters should also support science coming to bear on the problem to solve it to some degree.

I don't know what the answer is, but I want real objective scientific responses to the problem (which, to be clear, is "how to we measure impairment by drivers on marijuana in a way which is quick, easy, and portable?")

easy question. Hard answers.
 
469Frick
      ID: 35438217
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 14:36
PD followed up on my original question. Take a step back and ask why driving while impaired is a crime? You are putting others are risk based on your actions, and those actions are multiplied by the size of the vehicle you are operating.

If we can prove that a person who was high was not impaired in any way while driving, then there should be significantly higher penalties, similar to alcohol penalties.
 
470weykool
      ID: 351422416
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 15:03
My personal of experience from my youth is I would drive extremely cautiously, but get lost a lot.
Getting lost is an impairment.

I agree with PD.
The burden of proof that people that are high are not adding to the risk of other drivers belongs 100% to the legalization advocates.
 
471biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 16:36
Why?

I'm not advocating legalizing driving while high.
Nobody is.

It's like saying to those in favor of ending alcohol prohibition-
"not until you invent a breathalizer!"

that argument is nonsensical.
 
472weykool
      ID: 351422416
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 17:40
Why?

Because we have no way of preventing people who are high from driving a car.
The obvious is now nonsensical?
 
473biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 17:49
We have no way of stopping the blind or toddlers from driving
either. Should we make those illegal as well?

Are such a car-centric society that we should base all of our
laws on what it looks like behind the wheel?

I prefer we ban cars altogether, if that's the case.
 
474biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 17:53
If it's so bloody difficult to discern if someone is impaired
without a fancy test, perhaps we should assume they aren't.
 
475Myboyjack
      ID: 447112610
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 18:06
Y'all realize they had laws agaist impaired driving before
there was a medical test to show BAC.
 
476biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 18:13
I think cars are the greatest excuse for limiting and infringing
on our basic freedoms in the history of our country.

Evil filthy things.
 
477Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 18:36
#475: Still do, I believe. I was just speaking politically. For purposes of legalizing marijuana, the support for a similar policing tool for weed would go some way to overcoming political reticence on the issue.
 
478Myboyjack
      ID: 447112610
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 18:54
The push now from MADD is for zero tolerance for alchohol.
(that's already the case for drivers under 21)

I don thnk anything willl overcome the Modern day teetotalers
 
479Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 18:58
I hadn't realized that, though it is hard to miss their zeal.
 
480Boldwin
      ID: 224592123
      Sat, May 22, 2010, 01:25
I think cars are the greatest excuse for limiting and infringing
on our basic freedoms in the history of our country.

Evil filthy things.
- bili

What is this impulse to get every last think @ssbackwards?

Are you just pulling our leg?

I want you to hop in your solar powered, non-polluting time machine. Go back to the wagon train. Offer them a machine that will transport them to California in 24 hours and see if they recoil in horror at the infernal limitations and infringement of their freedom.

 
481biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Sat, May 22, 2010, 03:47
Try to picture the world without cars. Really. Try.

I love driving my Turbo 100 mph through the winding hills, mountains and valleys as much as the next guy.

The trouble is that 99.9999% of the time, I'm sitting on some commuter hell in stop and go traffic, my frustration burning a hole in my soul.

We would be better off fire-bombing them all, taking the huge hit the GDP and what we currently think of our lifestyle but salvaging our communities and our sense of humanity.
 
482Khahan
      ID: 13126822
      Sat, May 22, 2010, 19:48
bili 446 - No, I'm not missing the point. I'm well aware pot can be detected in your system for up to a month after use. I'm well aware that if I were to smoke it today, 2 weeks from now it would not be impairing me.

But the point you seem to be missing is that pot is illegal. If I fail a test in 2 weeks because of pot, guess what...I got caught doing something illegal. Plain and simple. The law is fine. It simply tacks on another punishment for breaking the law.

Again, this is completely the wrong fight. The fight should be against the schedule level of marijuana. Win *that* war then the rest are small skirmishes. Even getting this law overturned or re-written.
 
483Boldwin
      ID: 34472223
      Sun, May 23, 2010, 00:10
Could this be where souless zombie liberals come from? Traffic rage?
 
484biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Sun, May 23, 2010, 01:07
I can agree with that, Khahan.

I was run over last week, Boldwin. I've been hit by a car 9 times in the last 15 years. I love bicycling, but does it have to kill me?
 
485Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Wed, Jun 08, 2011, 21:14
Volokh: 40 Out of 50 Indiana State Senators Sign Amicus Brief Supporting Right to Use Force to Resist Unlawful Police Entry!
 
486Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Thu, Jun 09, 2011, 08:23
Re: 485

Not sure why that is in this thread, but as an Indiana resident, I'm curious to see where it ends. The judges decisions to support police entry into a home without a warrant stemmed from domestic violence incidents. I believe that both judges who upheld the ruling cited that specific situation, what is scary is how wide the door is now open for cops to enter a home without a warrant.
 
487Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 20:16
Frick

Sorry for the slow response. I meant to get to it sooner and then it slipped too far down the page to catch my eye.

I'm guilty of not looking into Barnes v. State and just assuming it was a drug raid. But even if I knew, I probably would have put it here anyway since this thread already contains numerous discussions about special tactics police invading private homes and the militarization of our police in general.

Your point did evoke an interesting question, though. While I'm aware that not all unjustifyable paramilitary style home invasions are executed for the purpose of finding drugs, the vast majority of the ones I hear about are. Is that an accurate reflection?
 
488sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 20:26
OK, obviously not a lawyer; but short of "imminent danger", how is a warrantless home entry NOT a violation of the 4th Amendment?

Fourth Amendment
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
 
489Wilmer McLean
      ID: 839213
      Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 02:08
RE: 488

I guess that the variables of "unreasonable" and "probable cause" could sway some decisions.
 
490Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 08:29
Re: 487

I don't have any factual data, but I would guess that most raids are drug related. But if it is a "raid" they most likely have a warrant going in.

I have mixed feeling about the ruling. I have strong disagreement with the fact that a homeowner in Indiana is now told that they must submit to a warrantless search of their home and can only seek restitution at a later date. As Sarge said, it seems like a fairly clear violation of the 4th Amendment. I can also see the viewpoint of the judges that if a domestic violence call was made, the cops should verify that everyone in the house is safe.

I heard story on the Skeptics Guide to the Universe this week where a "psychic" called the police and said they had a vision of a pile of bodies in a home. The police went to the home and didn't find anything. The psychic called back and gave more detailed information and police, including the FBI went back in force and spent hours searching the property. They detected rotting smells and found blood on the front porch. When the home owners finally came home, it turns out they were truck drivers and the rotting smell was garbage that had been left out. The blood was from an accident on the porch and nothing more nefarious. The police spent a large amount of money and were now looking into the angle that the psychic made the call as revenge for some other transgression.

Could cops call in a "fake" domestic violence call on a suspected drug house to allow them to enter and then find drugs? Seems like a very easy way to dodge getting a warrant or to just allow police to harass citizens. Hopefully the ruling is modified or precedents are set that any evidence gained in this manner is not admittable in court or the basis for a future warrant.
 
491Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 09:25
Just another liberty being taken away. And sarge33rd, you don't have to ba a lawyer to read or understand the Constitution. Despite what some blowhards will tell you.
 
493Mith
      ID: 657210
      Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 10:43
Re: 490

To be clear there was no ruling. The news was that 80% of the senate (and 31% of the house) in IN support a petition for rehearing the case.

Sadly, I believe it may have come to the point where what we need for the public and the media to take a look a this is a police officer doing nothing more than his job exactly as he is supposed to do it geting shot by an innocent resident who was perfectly within his right to shoot him.

Perhaps then the country could begin to understand how insane the combined war on drugs and militarization of our police is. Case after miserable case of mistaken invasions resulting in property damage, injury and loss of life to innocent civillians for some reason has not done the trick. Maybe that changes if the casualty is a cop next time.
 
494Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 10:46
Or how about police taking out a guy trying to protect his house.

The problem isn't the warrant. It it police acting like para-military outfits (with armored carriers, automatic weaponry, etc. all given to them by Homeland Security money).
 
495sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 10:46
Actually MITH, I believe the Indiana SC did in fact rule, that a resident has no right of self defense against a warrantless entry by law enforcement. That, is what spurred the news reports and action you refer to above.

link
 
496sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 11:03
let me add too, that in the case of a domestic violence situation; I think that Law Enforcement could legitimately claim "imminent threat" as grounds for a warrantless entry. I don't see, where the same claim could be made re a drug enforcement action, unless the claim then becomes one of imminent destruction of the evidence.
 
497Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 11:44
You're right, Sarge. I probably misunderstood what ruling Frick was referring to.
 
498Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 08:55
I don't think the new Miss USA will be the next spokesperson for the Legalization of Marijuana.

Hulu

 
499Boldwin
      ID: 25530309
      Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 18:13
Obama's drug war
 
500DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Jun 30, 2011, 18:59
Yup, pretty much.

You should listen to the one right below that too!
 
501Boldwin
      ID: 58112185
      Wed, Dec 21, 2011, 10:56
Does catnip work on the big cats?
 
502Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Dec 21, 2011, 13:05
Kim Jong-il dropping the bass...
 
503Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Dec 21, 2011, 13:11
oops, wrong thread. But it works, somehow.
 
504Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 00:12
If you want yer munchie binges to keep on including twinkies and hostess cupcakes, better start showing your support.
 
505Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 18:09
6am chainsaw work?
 
506Boldwin
      ID: 0210514
      Tue, Mar 05, 2013, 15:10
“No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.” - P.J. O'Rourke
 
507Boldwin
      ID: 47351116
      Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 19:37
There is no justice.