Forum: pol
Page 719
Subject: The direction of the Democratic Party


  Posted by: Myboyjack - Leader [14826271] Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 15:28

After the mid-term election failure (despite the high-hopes and big talk of McCaulife, et al, it would appear that the Democratic Party is seeking direction – but is not sure what that direction is going to be.

The battle for House Minority Leader, between Nancy Pelosi of CA and Harold Ford of TN , is shaping up as the defining event in the search for the party's direction. Pelosi would tend to lead the Party left to its traditional base and would seek to obstruct the Republican agenda at every turn. Ford is a centrist who supports Bush on the War.

Personally, I believe that if the Democrats choose Pelosi over Ford – they risk being marginalized like never before. I really think that the Dems are missing the boat if they believe that what the electorate wants is more McCauliffe style confrontation. In 2000 the country was evenly divided between Bush and Gore. Last Tuesday the country voted
about 53-47 Republican . If the party goes the way of Pelosi, my guess that by 2004 it will be more like 60/40. As a registered Democrat (of admittedly shaky convictions in national party) in a public office that worries me a bit.

 
1Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 89321319
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 15:39
My thought is that the direction of the House, and even the national party, it moot for the next 18 months or so. The Dems are in the backseat until then, and if Bush stumbles the 2004 elections will be a huge opportunity for them. I just don't see the Dems as being able to sustain much interest for the short term.

However, the more the Dems tie their wagons to the Administration, the more difficult it will be for them to be able to differentiate themselves in 2004. While the President deserves support no matter who has control of Congress on a lot of the War on Terror, the Dems are going to have to articulate a vision in 2004 based upon what went wrong with Bush between now and then on everything else.

pd
 
2James K Polk
ID: 23754811
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 15:41
I think Pelosi's basically a shoo-in at this point, and it will be interesting to look back at this a couple years from now.

For every Democrat warning that the American public won't stand for political combat, there's a Democrat who blames the "let's all just get along" approach for this election defeat in the first place.

And I'm also guessing that biliruben's comments in that other thread speak for a sizable liberal contingent: It would be nice to be able to tell the parties apart again. It would be nice to know what the Democratic Party actually stands for.

For better or worse, Pelosi's probably going to make that happen.

I also think it's not quite accurate to suggest Pelosi will fight the White House at every turn. From a recent Chicago Tribune story: Pelosi vowed to work "shoulder to shoulder" with President Bush on national security issues, but not to shy away from a fight over domestic economic matters.

If she picks the party's battles carefully ... we shall see.
 
3sarge33rd
ID: 324532412
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 16:08
at this moment....the Dem's (myself in that generalization) look to be in trouble come 2004. Of course, in 1990 when Bush Sr occupied the Whitehouse, we looked to be in trouble then as well. Will Jr for some reason fall in the polls as did Sr in the 2 yr interim? time will tell.
 
4Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 16:15
Pelosi may have "vowed to work shoulder to shoulder withthe President on national security issues" but the record shows that she's voted against him on virtually every important national security bill, including the authorization to take action in Iraq.

She must mean "shoulder to shoulder" as in the way a linebacker gets "shoulder to shoulder" with a fullback?
 
5James K Polk
ID: 23754811
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 16:21
LOL, very true. Maybe she'll feel compelled to change a bit on the issue now that she's tasked with leading the party? Who knows.
 
6steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 17:45
I don't know if Pelosi hurts or helps. If I was a democrat, I'd watch my back. She started a coalition of anti-Iraq, anti Gebhardt democrats the day Gebhardt said he would vote for Iraqi resolution. May have started her campaign for minority leader before that.

Is she more interrested in personal 'power' [heard her say at one of her news conferences - she was excited] than doing anything for the democratic party? Or does she believe her way is the democratic party? Maybe it is. I'm sure she will run a tight ship.

How important is house 'minority leader'? Except to the Sunday and cable news shows?

The deomcratic party reminds me today of the republican party in 1996. A mess. But somehow they barely held onto House. But I'm sure leaders will emerge in the democratic party.

Pelosi, she can't hurt. She may even energize the base [or at least get more of them out to vote]. The question is: Will she keep just as many hard right republicans energized?
 
7Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 18:37
Two words -- Barry Goldwater.
 
8Julius
ID: 210511117
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 19:01
I think there is something here that is very obvious but everyone seems be missing. Pelosi is a woman. This is going to be the first time when a woman is leading a party. This in itself, is going to send a clear message to the electorate that the "Dems" are in fact different, and returns the focus to one main difference between the parties -- civil rights.

The importance of being house minority leader is that in two years she will be house majority leader -- that is the real significance.
 
9steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 19:26
Julius - I skipped it because it's not significant. She will not be the leader of the democratic party, she will be the leader of the democrats [minority] in the House.

It does send a message that the 'Dems' are different. That even the ones from from San Francisco are different than the rest of the 'Dems'. Pelosi is white and female. Ford is the wrong kind of democrat. He's not a Jesse Jackson type democrat. Kind of like Condi Rice and Colen Powell. They are the wrong type of blacks too.

Show me one point where 'Dems' are different than 'Pubs' on civil rights as laws are written and how everyones rights are protected under the constitution. Other than in the 'Dems' scare tactics. Which some people buy.

The civil right argument died years ago. Most votors see that. Dems are losing all their scare tactical campaign running points.

Even senior citizens are catching on.
 
10Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 20:56
Madman 7 Oh oh. Are you saying that Nancy Pelosi, although leading the Democrats toward temporary defeat, will put them on a course that will eventually rescue them from irrelevance, make them a party of principle, and lead them to power for a generation?

That would be scary!

Toral
 
11Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 21:01
Three words - John C. Calhoun

;)
 
12Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 21:09
Not from the DLC 'Era of big government is over' wing...

serves on the executive committee of the socialist-leaning Progressive Caucus...Until 1999, the website of the Progressive Caucus was hosted by the Democratic Socialists of America. Following an expose of the link between the two organizations in WorldNetDaily, the Progressive Caucus established its own website under the auspices of Congress. Another officer of the Progressive Caucus, and one of its guiding lights, is avowed socialist Rep. Bernie Sanders, the Vermont independent.

Nevertheless, the goal of the Democratic Socialists of America has never been deeply hidden. Prior to the cleanup of its website in 1999, the DSA included a song list featuring "The Internationale," the worldwide anthem of communism and socialism. Another song on the site was "Red Revolution" sung to the tune of "Red Robin." The lyrics went: "When the Red Revolution brings its solution along, along, there'll be no more lootin' when we start shootin' that Wall Street throng. ..." Another song removed after WorldNetDaily's expose was "Are You Sleeping, Bourgeoisie?" The lyrics went: "Are you sleeping? Are you sleeping? Bourgeoisie, Bourgeoisie. And when the revolution comes, We'll kill you all with knives and guns, Bourgeoisie, Bourgeoisie."

In the last three years, the Progressive Caucus has been careful to moderate its image for mainstream consumption.

"The members of the Progressive Caucus share a common belief in the principles of social and economic justice, non-discrimination and tolerance in America and in our relationships with other countries," the group's statement of purpose explains.

Most of the members of the Progressive Caucus, including Pelosi, opposed authorizing the war on Iraq. In fact, most Democrats in the House opposed the war resolution. House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt and 81 other House Democrats supported the move.

"The ideological vacuum atop the post-Sept. 11 Democratic Party will inevitably be filled," the New Republic said in its trademark TRB column. "And, if it is filled by Nancy Pelosi and Dennis Kucinich, the United States will no longer be a 50-50 nation; it will be a 40-60 nation for a generation."


Granted that is the take of the Neo-con New Republic which is decidedly in the DLC camp of the Democratic party.
 
13Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 21:18
Toral -- Well, I don't think there is much point in giving Goldwater credit for the Republican takeover of the House in 1994, 30 years after he ran. The Republican party, until Reagan, was devoid of substantive ideas, and/or the ability to sell them. Goldwater's attempt to run on principle was a dismal failure, and was effectively rejected by their only politician to achieve much stature over the ensuing 20 years -- Nixon.
 
14Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 21:54
Well, counter-factual speculation must be by nature, well, speculative. But I think it likely that if not for Goldwater -- had he never entered national politics,

a) Ronald Reagan would never have been elected President;
b) nor anyone else like him;
c) and, although this is even more speculative, the GOP would not have taken control of the House in 1994, or ever.

a) is a fairly safe postulation. Reagan made his national name in the GOP by his campaigning efforts in 1964 for Goldwater, and particularly by his electrifying election-eve address; the influence of people Goldwater brought into the Republican party in Reagan's campaigns is well-known. Goldwater was a kind of John the Baptist in this respect.
b) because there was no-one else like Reagan to win;

Paul Gigot: ": I think Barry Goldwater was the most successful loser in American presidential history. He won--in a way the votes in the 1964 election really weren't finally counted until the 1980 election. He won by capturing a party, by having a movement, a core of ideas, as Michael was talking about, capturing a party. And when you capture a party in American political -- in American politics, you can go places. And ultimately, that movement by taking the Republican Party and wresting power from what had been a kind of Eastern/North Eastern Republican Party that he called -- believed in what he called the Dime Store New Deal and taking it into a southern and western populist, small government, anti-Communist, nationalist, anti-Communist, not isolationist, as some earlier conservatives have been, like Robert Taft in the 50's, he made it into a movement that could come to power under Ronald Reagan."


Madman: The Republican party, until Reagan, was devoid of substantive ideas, and/or the ability to sell them. No, until *Goldwater*, the party was devoid of substantive ideas. And Goldwater himself was devoid of the ability to sell them -- notoriously. The history of conservative ascendency after Goldwater was the history of learning to sell those ideas, and to make such necessary adaptations to the ideas as to allow them to be sold. For example, supply-side economics as a political idea was based on the realization that a party that called both for lower government spending and higher taxes could not win. The people saw this position as wanting to give them less and charge them more. Eventually the GOP decided to "sell" the idea of taxes being where they should be if government played the smaller role they desired -- and let the Democrats figure out how to pay for the programs.

Madman: Goldwater's attempt to run on principle was a dismal failure, and was effectively rejected by their only politician to achieve much stature over the ensuing 20 years -- Nixon.. No. Nixon used and adapted those aspects of Goldwater's legacy that would be useful to him. The Southern Strategy could not have succeeded, or even been imagined, without Goldwater. (Granted, the South had been trending Republican since at least 1952, but withouit the clean break of 1964, that evolution would have come too slowly to help Nixon). Goldwater also made the GOP unequivocally the party of National Security. In 1960, it was JFK who made hay with the charge that the Republicans had allowed a "missile gap" with the Soviet Union to develop.

It's a small point, but I think back to Goldwater's later treatment by the party. Even in wake of the 1964 debacle, Goldwater was recognized as a precursor of victory, and received as a hero, by the GOP conventions of 1968 and 1972. I remember Hunter S. Thompson's observation about the GOP convention of 1972, that every speaker there was on a tightly scripted time allocation, except for Goldwater, who "was allowed to rave and snarl at the cameras for as long as he wanted".

Toral
 
15Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 22:02
From George Nash, preeminent historian of the New Right: "Politically, the postwar American Right as I have described it found its first national expression in the campaign of Senator Barry Goldwater for the presidency of the United States in 1964. From the perspective of twenty-two years it is now clear that the 1964 election had three enduring consequences. First, it created the huge Democratic congressional majorities, which permitted enactment of President Lyndon Johnson's Great Society program.[Toral note: well, I did speak of Goldwater leading the party to 'temporary defeat' :)] Second, it led to conservative capture of the Republican Party. And third, it created a national political figure in Ronald Reagan, whose eloquent television speech for Goldwater on the eve of the election led directly to his becoming a candidate for governor of California two years later.

link

Toral
 
16Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 22:09
I don't buy it. Reagan was hardly a Goldwater conservative once he got into office, and the fact that Republicans, flush with victory and eager to pass around the grapes, later were willing to give kudos to Goldwater who almost wrecked their entire ship doesn't stike me as anything more than the backslapping that goes on for a winning team. Mondale later became Ambassador to Japan under Clinton--it doesn't mean that Carter/Mondale was some kind of high point or even a phoenix pre-cooked.

pd
 
17Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 22:19
Toral -- If you try to say that Reagan happened only because of Goldwater, why give the credit to Goldwater? Why not give credit to the massively liberal hollywood elite that pushed Reagan to the right? Why not give credit to the people that helped Reagan get elected in 1978? Etc.

Look at Nixon's domestic policies. They almost destroyed the Republican party. Reagan stepped in and brought vision to what was a chaotic situation. The Republicans have been strong on foreign policy for the entire second half of the last century, JFK's well-documented bloodlust excepted.

If Goldwater was such a god-send to the Republicans, why were they destroyed and marginalized for 16 years?

If you are fearful that Republicans will dominate for the next 16 years and that an irrepressible counter-revolution will take place after that time period, I would suggest you need to re-evaluate what the meaning of victory is. 16 years of domination would be incredible. And if the Republicans blow it after 16 years, it won't be because of Pelosi. It will be because they become politically corrupt and morally bankrupt. The same two things that eventually destroyed the Democrats (with Reagan's help, despite a temporary patch job from Clinton).
 
18Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 22:19
I'll tell you that I am not moved by Goldwater in the least and have always thot of Reagan as a Bill Buckley conservative. That said there is something to be said for Goldwater breaking the country club Republican ice for Reagan I guess. That speech Reagan gave is known as 'The Speech' to this day is it not? So you may have a point there, then again Reagan was working on those notecards for a long time and may well have gotten those ideas out without Goldwater.
 
19Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 22:26
If Goldwater was such a god-send to the Republicans, why were they destroyed and marginalized for 16 years?.

?

They weren't; the Republicans won in 1968, 4 years later. They won in 1972, 8 years later. And even after Watergate, they almost won in 1976, 12 years later.

Toral
 
20Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 22:39
Look at the House of Representatives, Toral. Trust me they were pretty lean times until Reagan came along and even then Republicans never had the Presidency and both sides of Congress at the same time.
 
21Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Mon, Nov 11, 2002, 22:52
Baldwin: Look at the House of Representatives, Toral. Trust me they were pretty lean times until Reagan came along
Oh for sure. I well recall talking with a friend and us concluding that the GOP would never win the House during our lifetimes. (Actually we concluded that the only way the GOP could ever win the House was if there were a hideous depression or national disaster while the Democrats held all 3 branches.) But Goldwater didn't cause these lean times -- they were there before he came, and he provided some of the impetus for getting out of them. I.e., liberal Republicanism wasn't going anywhere; with Goldwater you got one hideous debacle followed by rebirth and growth leading to astonishing, almost unbelievable success, instead of a generation of ideological surrender and electoral mediocrity. If you credit Reagan for upturn in Congressional forces, then, why since without Reagan no Congress; and without Goldwater, no Reagan; then....

Toral
 
22 Baldwin
ID: 321048126
Tue, Nov 12, 2002, 07:59
One of the reasons Dems can still get away with electing socialists to leadership positions...

Voting records are more important than party labels and by that reasoning liberals still run both sides of Congress.

Here is how the party balloon gets deflated, ranked by the American Conservative Union Rating for 2001—the lower the number, the more liberal:


REPUBLICAN/ ACU RATING/ SENATE EROSION

Lincoln Chaffee 28 52

Arlen Specter 42 51

Olympia Snowe 51 50

Ben Campbell 52 49

Susan Collins 58 48

Ted Stevens 63 47

Pete Domenici 73 46

Richard Shelby 73 45

Gordon Smith 77 44

George Voinovich 78 43

Judd Gregg 79 42

Richard Lugar 79 41

Thadd Cochran 80 40

Chuck Hagel 82 39


Not only is that a majority for the liberals, it is a filibuster proof super-majority at 61-39

The fanfare surrounding the 1994 Republican Sweep was truly amazing. Newt and Company said that the "era of big government was over". There was a literal rush to argue what department and agency should be shut down first. In the end, not only was there no reduction in the size of government, nor was there a department shut down, but the growth of government accelerated to an astonishing pace.

Looking back, it is clear that the Republican Party was as much to blame for the growing tax slavery and big centralized government as the Democrats were. As you see from the table, federal government spending increased over the rate of inflation each year, and confiscation of your paycheck increased at rates even above the spending.


 
23Madman at work
ID: 398591212
Tue, Nov 12, 2002, 08:17
Toral -- "the Republicans won in 1968, 4 years later. They won in 1972, 8 years later. And even after Watergate, they almost won in 1976, 12 years later."

Uhhh. OK. Technically you are correct. Republicans won. But conservatives lost every election cycle until 1980. And even then, it took a long time to turn the country around.
 
24Madman at work
ID: 398591212
Tue, Nov 12, 2002, 08:20
Actually, Baldwin is right. The country still isn't turned around. But there are some conservatives who occassionally get their voice heard. Not often, but occassionally. And that's all due to Reagan. Not Goldwater.
 
25Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 108231015
Tue, Nov 12, 2002, 12:09
Stanley Kurtz thinks John McCain might give the Democratic Party a try Seems pretty far-fetched to me. Stil the man does have an immense ego....

He's right about this though:

The inability of the Vietnam generation to reconcile itself to a just war fought in the national interest spells potential disaster for the Democratic party. So long as the Democrats come off as weak (and how can they not?) they are doomed. Yet any Democratic leader tough enough to win over the American people on the war will drive at least a portion of his party into the arms of the Greens. If Nader could sink the Democrats when the country was evenly split and there was no war, or overriding issue, what will happen when we face a serious peace movement?

But the problem for the Democrats doesn't depend on any single scenario. Even without a McCain candidacy, or a Nader figure on the Left, a hawkish Democratic candidate means that disgruntled leftists will stay home on Election Day. I do think, though, that some sort of multiparty scenario (either a revived Green candidacy, a McCain independent candidacy, or both) is now a realistic possibility
 
26Madman at work
ID: 398591212
Tue, Nov 12, 2002, 13:26
I agree with the significance of a third party possibility. Especially after CFR 2002, we are going to see increased fragmentation of our politics.

I'm not sure how much war stuff will play into 2004+. Iraq will be (mostly) resolved one way or the other by then.
 
27Baldwin
ID: 321048126
Tue, Nov 12, 2002, 15:54
A counter I am surprised no one came up with to post #22 is that Democrat have their own defectors. Well not really...democrat discipline is much much stricter. If they are from extremely conservative areas they may be allowed to make a few conservative votes on items that liberals are sure to lose or where their votes are not needed but when it counts they always vote liberal.

Here are the only Senate votes they cannot count on...

Democrat ADA rating [higher=more consistantly liberal]
Jeffords(i) Vermont 40
Zell Miller Georgia 35
Breaux Louisiana 55
Nelson Nebraska 70
 
28biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Tue, Nov 12, 2002, 16:28
The reason I didn't rebutt #22, is that I wasn't easily able to find any criteria for the ACU ranking. In the absence of criteria I have to assume that their definition of a liberal vote is extremely liberal. ;)
 
29Baldwin
ID: 321048126
Tue, Nov 12, 2002, 18:31
This is not rocket science Bili. 8]

ACU vote criteria click on the state and see the votes broken down by category.

Or see this.

For support of liberal agenda see this Americans for Democratic Action link.
 
30biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Tue, Nov 12, 2002, 18:44
A quick look gives me the impression that the ACU is defining liberal as anti-conservative. That's a bit dishonest, don't you think?

They appear to be stacking the deck. I will try and take a closer look when I have some more time.
 
31Stuck in the Sixties
Leader
ID: 12451279
Wed, Nov 13, 2002, 10:15
The reason these debates ramble on is the inability of either of the two major parties to present fresh ideas. And that, of course, is the whole idea.

Want fresh solutions? Encourage participatory democracy but demanding that minor-party candidates receive exposure at debates, etc. You'd be surprised at the influence they'd have once people finally understood that there are other ways of thinking about the national process.
 
32Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Wed, Nov 13, 2002, 18:37
Personally, I don't want fresh solutions, I want ones that might work. Silly me.
 
33Stuck in the Sixties
Leader
ID: 3110331322
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 00:05
Madman:

Touche!
 
34Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 05:41
I think the Pelosi rise to power signals only one thing. The Dems and Ann Coulter are in perfect agreement!

After last week's drubbing in the midterm elections, the Abortion Party (formerly known as the Democratic Party) is looking for direction. Happily, both the party brass and base are coalescing around the idea that the Democrats were not adequately insane.

Thus, for example, discussing the Democrats' bloodbath on National Pubic Radio, Robert Kuttner said the Democrats had "blurred their differences with President Bush on key issues like whether to have a tax cut ... whether to have a social outlay that benefits ordinary people. They tried to blur their differences with the president on the war ..."

I can only say: Get that man a microphone! I wholeheartedly agree. What this last election proves, as the New York Times has clearly explained, is that the people want expensive '60s-style government programs, a mammoth tax increase, a depleted, anemic military and an enormous welfare state. (Duh.)

Hauling poor old Walter Mondale out of retirement to defend Jimmy Carter's record was definitely a step in the right direction. (New slogan idea – "The Democratic Party: The Gift That Keeps On Giving!") But it's not enough. In the interest of good sportsmanship, I have some other suggestions to help the Democrats clarify their differences with the Republicans.

First, the Democratic Party needs to have a lot more anti-war rallies in which Jesse Jackson embraces Ramsey Clark and liberals go around calling one another "comrade." The public cries out for the opinions of doddering old Stalinists in berets. Do not fall for the canard about left-wing kooks undermining the work of liberals who look normal.

That's what Dick Gephardt, D-Mo., thought, and look what happened to him. Of the three Democrats arguably responsible for the election fiasco – Terry McAuliffe, Tom Daschle and Dick Gephardt – surely the least culpable was Gephardt, the original phony "NASCAR Democrat." But picking up on the Clinton strategy of blame the innocent and promote the guilty, only Gephardt resigned.
[wanna bet McAuliffe doesn't get booted? - B]

Second, the Democrats definitely need to speak out more forcefully against the Boy Scouts. So far, their hatred of the Boy Scouts has been frankly weak-kneed. Two years ago, Rep. Lynn Woolsey, D-Calif., introduced a bill to revoke the Boy Scouts' 84-year-old federal charter because they discriminate against gays. Despite the votes of several Democrats, the bill was narrowly rejected in a 362-12 vote.

It's a hopeful sign that Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., is on track to succeed Gephardt as House minority leader. She supported revoking the Boy Scouts' charter. But to really uncompact the Democrats' message, they need to take a two-fisted approach toward this wholesome, all-American organization. This is no time for subtlety: The Democrats need to present a clear alternative. Demand that the Boy Scouts be outlawed. Go after the Boy Scouts like you're going after the Klan!

Third, there is still plenty of room to curry more favor with the teachers' unions. Democrats should start demanding really, REALLY small class sizes. Right now the critical ratio is supposed to be 20 students to 1 teacher. Hundreds of studies have failed to produce any correlation between class size and student achievement. In fact, the United States has far smaller class sizes than Japan and far worse test scores.

But don't let that slow you down! A clear message for the Democratic Party is at stake. Democrats need to start demanding one teacher, one teacher's assistant, one backup teacher's assistant and one auxiliary backup teacher's assistant for every student. Instead of a ratio of 20 students to 1 teacher, they should insist on .03 students for every teacher.

Fourth, it's time to roll out Hillary's national health-care plan again. Desperate times call for desperate measures. But this time, it should not be limited to American citizens. Let the Republicans oppose extending a prescription-drug program to the citizens of all nations!

Fifth, it's not enough to oppose a missile-defense system because it "won't work." Everyone knows Democrats haven't the first idea how a squirt gun operates, much less complicated missile technology. It's time to oppose Star Wars on the grounds that – even if it works – it will protect only the top 1 percent of earners.

Sixth, the Muslim snipers terrorizing Maryland and Virginia present a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to promote voter registration for felons. Now is the time to rush Jesse Jackson to their holding cells with voter-registration cards. Also, the lead gunman was 17 years old. Refer to him as a "child" while hysterically denouncing the death penalty for "juveniles." Perhaps the French could even make the younger sniper an honorary citizen, like Mumia. I only regret that Leonard Bernstein isn't around to throw a cocktail party for them.

Finally, as Hillary Kessler-Godin (New York!) wrote in a letter to the New York Times last Thursday: "The party needs to bring out the two best weapons in its arsenal, Bill and Hillary Clinton." No question about it. In fact, it ought to be part of the Democratic Party platform that Bill Clinton is required to campaign with every Democratic candidate running for any office in the land. Also, Ms. Kessler-Godin has to start attending the anti-war rallies.


Ann Coulter, I love you I love you I - l-o-v-e - y-o-u!

I think we must have been separated at birth or something!


 
35Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 09:29
More like separated at afterbirth.

Political punditry is really easy for fiction writers like AC.

pd
 
36Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 108231015
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 12:18
Harold Ford: "
Although Democrats have traditionally sought the upper hand on domestic issues, we now live in a post-9/11 world. If we want the American people to trust us to govern, we cannot take a dismissive or defeatist attitude toward issues of national security.

One area of stark contrast between my opponent and me is Iraq. Rep. Pelosi opposed the president and voted against the resolution. I worked with Republicans and Democrats to pass a narrowly tailored resolution and joined Democrats and Republicans in voting for it. Ultimately, congressional support helped the administration negotiate a strong resolution that won the unanimous approval of the U.N. Security Council.

But no matter how individual members voted on the resolution, our problem as a party in this most recent election was that we raised objections rather than offered solutions. Many Americans may be apprehensive about the president's national security strategy, but they understand that he has one, and that the Democrats don't."


The Dems are (once again) boneheads for not picking this guy to lead the House.

 
37yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 381011148
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 12:50
ahhhhhh...I was afraid that good ol' AC had slipped under the radar. Thank God she's still cranking out her own version of bullsh!t for the weak-minded. Talk about a bold faced liar. She's the Bill Clinton of the Right.
 
38yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 381011148
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:08
 
39Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:14
More like separated at afterbirth. - PD

And this is clever how?

You guys just wish she didn't have your weaknesses so exposed.
 
40James K Polk
ID: 15546611
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:22
No, I think people just wish she wasn't OK with lying -- over and over and over -- as long as it strikes a chord with what ultra-conservatives already believe.
 
41yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 381011148
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:23
I guess if you have a soapbox and cry loud enough it's okay to lie. Again and again and again.
 
42Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:35
Yeah it is just a lie that Dems face elections with all those PR disasters hanging around their neck. You guys keep denying your own problems. It's useful...8]
 
43yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 381011148
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:38
See the last line of 37 for my own self depricating (flagellating?) view there, baldwin. ;)
 
44Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:39
None of the Democrats are running away from their problems, Baldwin.

Colter's schtick is to invent Democratic puppets based on invented characature, then pummel them with barbs under the guise that her attacks are their own "self-inflicted" wounds.

One of the silver linings coming out of this election is that her attacks are more irrelevent than ever.

pd
 
45Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:43
You guys keep denying your own problems.
I absolutely love it when you in Coulteresque fashion throw around loose terms like you guys. Who are you referring to here? All Dems? Dems who keep denying their own problems?

You Democrats who keep denying your own problems keep denying your own problems.

"Uh, thanks for the heads-up", I'm sure the rest of the Democratic party would say.
 
46Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:44
None of the Democrats are running away from their problems, Baldwin.
PD

No they are hoping to put a bow on them and try to resell them in two years...*uncontrollable snicker*...keep up the good work! No really! 8]
 
47Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:47
Who are you referring to here? - PD

The same guys squirming because she has them so pegged. The same guys who hate her. The same guys who spam spam spam whenever I praise her.
 
48yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 381011148
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:51
baldwin, for someone who professes to be a disciple of the truth, how are you so easily hoodwinked by AC? You hot for her bod or sumpthin'?

The plain fact is that she LIES over and over again.

I'm not saying that there aren't AC's of the Left, but they're no less despicable for their "end arounds" the truth.
 
49Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 13:55
You know what? It does your position no good to point to imaginary lies that have not been demonstrated. In fact the more you wave your arms around screaming lies, lies, all lies, the crazier you sound.
 
50Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 14:07
Baldwin 47
Actually, I asked that, not PD. I despise the woman, though believe me, nothing about her makes me squirm. Lies and misrepresentation don't affect me that way. The purpose of that piece is clearly to mock and nothing else. Very un-Christianlike, Baldwin. The only spamming I see in this thread is post 34.

It does really disapoint me every time you praise her. Your hatred for all things left leaves you unable to see past her hateful chiding and gleeful ignorance of any meaningful perspective of anyone who's views do not coincide with the political right. For a Democrat to concede that his/her party has lost direction indicates an awareness of the party's problems. According to logic presented by you, it is not possible to recognize this and also to resent her hate. I can't believe you really believe that.

Frankly, I don't believe you really like her that much at all. I think you just get a kick out of how much she pisses liberals off with her lies about them. Very similar to people who listen to shock-jock types. From what I've heard, very few of them ever actually say anything meaningful or very funny. It's their ability to get under the skin of people that makes them popular.
 
51yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 381011148
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 14:34
Ann Coulter is merely the latest in a dubious tradition of self-promoters who have discovered that if you say enough outrageous things, you can get yourself an opportunity to say them on television. She is a sideshow attraction, not the main event. Her only significance in the war between Left and Right is diverting attention to herself, and away from the machinations of the real players in the game.

She excels in this role. She has a bizarre sex appeal and willingness to shoot her mouth off that make her a natural on television. If she were witty instead of just mean-spirited and nasty, maybe she could be the Right's answer to Sandra Bernhardt. In her book she has included, and heavily publicized, 780 or so footnotes, in the hope that their very heft will buy Slander a credibility not shared by the books of, say, Bernard Goldberg, Sean Hannity, or (on the Left) Mike Moore. It's interesting to note that while the thesis of Ann Coulter's book is that liberal name-calling contributes to the decline of political issue debate in this country, when have you ever heard Ann Coulter debate issues? What issues does Coulter push? She only attacks liberals. That's all she does. She advocates no public policy issues.

Need more? Or how about this? Or this one...

AC's inaccuracies and outright fabrications are well documented. Just do a lazy search a la coulter...
 
52Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 14:38
The truth behind her satire is rock solid.

The NYT's is stuck in the sixties and Dems would be wise to seek their direction elsewhere. It appears they won't.

Really think Walter Mondale can lead you out of the wilderness. This should be fun. 8]

You think Dems aren't inextricably linked to anti-war rallies? You think the image of Jesse Jackson embracing Ramsey Clark is unlikely? Puhleeze, if you think these are 'lies' you are deluding yourself.

You think Pelosi wouldn't destroy the Boy Scouts if she could before letting them hold to their own moral code?

You think the Dems aren't slaves to the NEA? You think the public doesn't know it?

You think Americans want socialized medicine? Go ahead. Keep riding that pony. See if I care.

You think the Dems aren't engaged in class warfare?

You think the Dems wouldn't hand Satan himself a voters registration form if they could? You think they are not the party who is most likely to argue for enfranchizing felons? You think the left's embracing of Mumia is sane? You think it it is good politics? The left is ridiculous. Obviously AC knows the snipers are too unpopular to ever receive the left's usual 'understanding' treatment but sympathy and understanding for criminals is a PR problem for Dems. That is an indisputable fact. I find the Mumia analogy quite instructive and appropriate.

Think Bill and Hillary are your best weapons? Think there aren't plenty of Dems who do believe that?

Really face facts. Your ad hominem attacks on Ann Coulter are completely without merit.
 
53Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 14:43
ad hominem attacks on Ann Coulter???

rich.
 
54Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 14:45
Like Ann, Baldwin prefers to ignore the facts that challenge him rather than either attempt to refute them or concede to the truth.

If you can't beat 'em, find a way to ridicule 'em, eh Baldwin?
 
55Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 14:50
I still don't believe you really buy into her. No self-respecting God fearing devoted Christian could ever respect someone who's only purpose is to mock and chide, even when it is defiance of truth. Didn't we go over all this months ago? Weren't you going to get back to us on the multitude of Bloggers who had pointed out Anns numerous lies, Baldwin? What ever happened to that? Am I to assume that your non-response indicates that you gave up? And you still support her in spite of her blatent lies? I don't believe it. Isn't honesty some part of godiness?
 
56yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 381011148
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 14:53
no no no MITH it's putting-the-seat-back-downness that's next to godliness (according to my wife).
 
57yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 381011148
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 14:59
 
58sarge33rd
ID: 324532412
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:04
roflamo !!!!

ahhhhhhhhhhh now THAT felt good.
 
59steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:05
What do you call what McAuliffe, Clinton[s], DNC, Paul Krugman, The Nation or the NY Times says? The Truth? But they are considered respectable 'lies' in the media.

Actually I thought AC was quoting from a copy of the DNC platform. You are really accusing her of making that up? No way. She has a copy of the 'new and improved' DNC platform. :):)

AC just feeds Dem's lines right back to them. And how they hate it. It's called stretching the truth if you're a democrat, 'lies lies lies' if you're a republican.

That's OK. Keep running McAuliffe out there. Republicans could be in trouble if he goes. And are Clinton's losing power with DNC convention going to Boston, not New York. If so, is McAuliffe in trouble?
 
60Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:12
steve honestly now, when have you ever heard anyone in this forum say about McAuliffe, Clinton[s], DNC, Paul Krugman, The Nation or the NY Times;

I love you I love you I - l-o-v-e - y-o-u!

I think we must have been separated at birth or something!


Please.
 
61Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:17
Very funny, Y.

Gotta take a play from the Guru's playbook here, guys: Don't feed the trolls

pd
 
62Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 108231015
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:18
Ann Coulter - thread killer
 
63steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:22
MITH - take it you meant to say, "when have you ever heard anyone in this forum say [anything good] about McAuliffe ....

Not many since spatch left.

But look at the positions they are in.

AC is just a RW pundit that strikes a bad nerve with most liberals. The ones I mentioned lead the democratic party, lead the repected media. But they all are on par with AC when it comes to lies lies lies.
 
64yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 381011148
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:33
steve - I agree there are as many bad LW pundits as there are RW'ers. The only exception I would take is calling the LW'ers "leaders" of the respected media. Pundits on both sides of the aisle have equal access to media outlets. It's not like I can't get Hannity, Rush, and the Faux News crew as easily as I can get columns from Molly Ivins and her ilk. That "liberal bias" complaint is passe in this day and age of bloggers.
 
65Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:40
Look, according to ann any opinion that aligns with the left is unAmerican or unpatriotic or evil or secretly or overtly supportive of America's enemies. I have never read anything of hers that implies that she believes any middle ground exists. Her words - "There are many bad Republicans, but there are no good Democrats". But really my issue here is not with Ann any more than it is with Michael Moore or Noam Chomsky or David Duke or Ted Turner or Howard Stern. It is with people who unabashedly support, praise and promote their misguided rhetoric and abuses of power at the expense of honesty or workable political policy or perspective. You'd never hear me say that Ann has never said anything worthwhile. It's her insistance on absoluteness that makes promoting her dangerous. It also what exposes her as a fraud to anyone with half a brain. That's why I can't believe that Baldwin really supports her as much as he says.
 
66Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:46
There are moral absolutes, first principles, and things that are absolutely too stupid to treat respectfully. On this Ann and I are in complete agreement.

The left wing deserves every satirical barb she slings their way.
 
67Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:47
I don't think Baldwin likes her as much as liking what he perceives to be squirming from the left when she speaks. Of course, those from the middle-to-left know our squirming has more to do with her lies than anything else. We know it's the price we pay for living in an open society--that freedom of speech means allowing people to make an ass of themselves in public.

Ann's problems stem from her belief that nearly all of the media is controlled by those on the Left as rabid (or more) than she is. So she sets herself up as the counterbalance for this. Her inability to hold a political tune is what makes her such an empty gong.

pd
 
68Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 15:51
And of her exposed lies Baldwin?
 
69yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 381011148
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 16:08
This pretty much sums up Ann for me. Note the author and source. She's a hack, a sideshow attraction. "Look at me! The poor little sorority girl who had it all handed to her!"

Waahhhh.
 
70steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 16:13
MITH - can't think of literary word, but I view AC like a caricaturist. She makes points by exaggerating truth. Her exact points on tax, big government, military, anti war movement, boy scouts may be exaggerated, but 'caricaturist' like. And things associated with liberals.

I watched Molly Ivans, Katrina V....... and Paul Krugman on Donahue one night. Humorous. But I guarantee, even though they 'exaggerate' to the extreme [lie], republican strategists listen to them to counter what they say. I have found it's just politics. According to them, I'm suicidal. I want arsenic in my water, don't want government to pay for my prescription drugs, I love war, etc. A little bit of an exaggeration. But I am for a balance between safe limits of arsenic and cost, reasonable prescription drug plan, and force as a last resort.

Why does it work, sell? Someone's listening.

And when it's editorial/opinion, all is fair in politics and war. When it is reported as 'news', I think that's when most people get upset.
 
71Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 16:13
Lies on the Right are not as important to this country as lies on the Left, MITH. Didn't they teach you that?

It's a funny world we live in when loudmouth braggarts with a "truth problem" are praised for bashing other people as being loudmouth braggarts with a "truth problem."

pd
 
72Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 16:39
Well said PD. Steve I'll certainly agree that much of what she writes reads like a cartoon. Though frankly I don't ever recall brazenly promoting any political cartoonists with any of that I lovelovelove I-L-O-V-E-T-H-E-M stuff. But that's just me. Anyhow, for more of Ann's looneytunes, I suggest any lurkers check this thread. Start at post 121 and decide for yourselves, exagerations intended as poignant barbs at flawed leftist ideology or deliberate and blatent lies intended to deceive? Note how her most ardent defender utterly fails to refute the charges of dishonesty.
 
73Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Thu, Nov 14, 2002, 18:24
This discussion of Annie is very interesting but it uses a lot of big words that make it hard to understand. What it needs are some pictures! The discussion also skirts the issue. ('Skirts" -- get it?) The issue is -- when we get a veto-proof majority, who goes to the Supreme Court first,

Ann



or Laura?



Toral

 
74steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 04:40
Very good article on why writer thinks Republicans win out over Democrats on security issues. Even when Republicans make mistakes. It appears democrats take defense and security as a side issue. Not prepared to argue it articulately [don't fund the think tanks to support them on defense issues].

Non partisan article by a democrat. Holds no punches for either side. Gives a good insight into the differences in thinking between the two parties on security issues. Not so much on 'policy', but on subject matter support on the issues. Which she says must change for democrats to compete on security issues.

War Torn, by Heather Hurlburt, a former speechwriter for President Bill Clinton and Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.

Pulled some high points out.

As the debate over Iraq unfolded, I was dismayed, like most Democrats, to watch the Bush administration hawks nearly destroy the trust of our allies, whom we desperately need in our fight against al Qaeda, by pushing militarily insane plans to overthrow Saddam's regime unilaterally. ............. In the end, Bush won plaudits for shifting (apparently) to an approach that emphasized the need for U.N. approval and the involvement of our allies--one more in line with Democratic thinking. But Democrats didn't lead Bush to that position. They were instead dragged to it, and looked weak and craven as a result.

Since then, there's been plenty of hand-wringing among the leadership and rank-and-file Democrats about how politically inept the party appeared in the face of Bush's saber rattling. But that's the problem. Democrats are in this position precisely because we respond to matters of war politically, tactically. We worry about how to position ourselves so as not to look weak, rather than thinking through realistic, sensible Democratic principles on how and when to employ military force, and arguing particular cases, such as Iraq, from those principles. There are a lot of reasons for this failure, including the long-time split within the party between hawks and doves. But we will never resolve that split, nor regain credibility with voters on national security, until we learn to think straight about war. And we will never learn to think straight about war until this generation of professional Democrats overcomes its ignorance of and indifference to military affairs.
========
The reasons for this apathy aren't hard to discern. Many Democrats who came of age during the Vietnam War retain a gut-level distrust of the military. Younger staffers, who may not carry the same psychological baggage, have few mentors urging them toward military or security issues. I speak from experience: My main qualification for my first Washington job--covering European security for Congress--was that I could locate the Warsaw Pact countries on a map and correctly identify the acronyms of the relevant international organizations.

But lack of expertise is only a symptom. The malady is an irresponsible lack of interest. The issues that drive most contemporary Democrats into politics are reproductive rights, health care, fiscal policy, or poverty, not national security. Even those young Democrats who are interested in foreign affairs tend to be drawn to "soft" subjects such as debt relief and human rights.
=========
It's Security, Stupid

After Vietnam, the old Cold War liberalism no longer seemed credible to the party's core and to many of its leaders. Many Democratic officeholders and operatives responded by focusing on those foreign policy issues that they and their base were comfortable with, such as human rights and arms control, while others shied away from international policy altogether and focused on domestic issues. At the same time, most Democrats understood that a reputation for being "soft" on defense issues was a serious political liability. But instead of grappling with the substance of war and national security, Democrats began to approach their vulnerability as a problem of tactics and political positioning.

Congressional Democrats did produce centers of national security thinking, from Cold War liberals like Scoop Jackson to conservative southern Democrats trying to reassert their standing within the national party to the inoculating presence of liberals Carl Levin and Ted Kennedy on the Senate Armed Services Committee. Most importantly, by the mid-1980s leading Democrats like Gary Hart and Sam Nunn were introducing some of the most innovative ideas on military reform of anyone in Congress. The end of the Cold War, then, should have helped heal the hawk/dove divide and given Democrats a fresh start on security. But events got in the way. The Cold War liberals were dying off. The southerners were losing elections. Influential military theorists like Hart and Nunn, whose words commanded respect on both sides of the aisle, left the Senate. And most importantly, the 1990 Gulf War debate re-opened old wounds--and taught the party some misguided lessons.

Though the debate over the 1990 Iraq resolution was more vigorous than the one this fall, Democrats were not any better prepared to wage it. At the time, I was a young staffer detached from my Europe duties to write a Democratic senator's Gulf War floor statement. I considered pointing out that I knew little about the Gulf and less about modern warfare, but changed my mind--there didn't seem to be anyone around our office who knew any more than I did. When I worked up the courage to ask which position we were taking, the response came back: "Start writing, and we'll tell you later when we decide."
===========
As Evelyn Farkas, a Democratic staffer for the Senate Armed Services Committee, puts it, "Part of the reason we don't have a clear message on defense is that we don't have a place where people argue and create one for us."

When Michele Flournoy, a former Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Strategy and Threat Reduction now at CSIS, tried to obtain funding for defense research, she found that foundations comfortable giving to Democrats generally are less comfortable supporting specifically military projects, while foundations which like to fund hardcore defense work tend to fund Republicans. "As a pro-defense Democrat, I'm seen as a bit of an odd duck," she says. "Foundations tend to see me as coming from the other side.'" Former State Department staffer Tim Bergreen has spent much of the past year working to set up a think tank with a Democratic angle on military policy, without much success. At one point, the chief of staff to a top House Democrat told him "those aren't the issues that interest my boss."

Bush Hawk Down

Such infrastructure, along with a sensible doctrine of force with which non-specialists could come to terms, would have gone a long way toward helping Democrats think through their responses to the post-9/11 world. Among other things, they might have noticed sooner the big mistake the Bush administration was making by not bringing NATO into the latter stages of the Afghan campaign--a mistake that even many Bush officials now recognize. Most importantly, the Democrats might have steered themselves toward a sounder alternative to the Bush hawks' policies on Iraq.
=========
In late August and early September, the administration began grudgingly to admit--to itself, if not to the public--that its preferred strategy was unsound. It wasn't the Democrats who forced the hawks to rethink, however, but a combination of pressure from within by multilateralists like Colin Powell and pressure from outside by establishment Republican critics like Brent Scowcroft. Slowly it dawned on the White House that the United States couldn' hope to invade Iraq alone. As Bush reframed the debate around a demand for absolute Iraqi compliance with all U.N. Security Council resolutions, backed by the threat of devastating force, public and elite opinion slowly shifted in the president's direction.

Democrats could and should have called loudly for such a U.N.-based policy months earlier. Instead, most hid behind "tough questions" without offering a credible alternative. Other Democrats, particularly those with presidential ambitions, adopted a different party line--the Republicans'.

The irony is that a policy of using the threat of U.S. military power to enforce U.N. mandates in Iraq is one that both the hawks and at least some of the doves in the Democratic Party could have agreed on. Had they taken that position last spring--or even during the summer--Democrats might have helped shift the debate in a more sensible direction earlier, and served the country by limiting the negative international fallout from the hawks' unilateralism. They also might have helped themselves politically: When the president shifted his positions in September, it would have been seen, rightly, as a victory for the Democrats. Instead, by the time Bush swung towards a multilateral/U.N. approach to Iraq, most Democrats found the new position difficult to disagree with, but almost impossible to take credit for--John Kerry's valiant efforts on the Senate floor notwithstanding.
==========
Post-Cold Warriors

Now that the Iraq vote is past, Democrats will be tempted, as Tom Daschle has said, to "move on." But that would be a big mistake if it means continuing to treat defense issues like tests they can squeak through with Cliff's Notes. With so many real security threats out there, and so many half-baked conservative plans being hatched to counter them, the country needs Democrats back in the security game in a serious way.
===========
Or take the issue that got me started, transforming the military to meet 21st-century challenges. Donald Rumsfeld, the current secretary of defense, has begun an effort to think this through--guided, of course, by his very hawkish views. But Rumsfeld's exercise is only the first sally in what is going to be a very difficult debate. Money for technology or money for troops? Update weaponry gradually, or skip a generation and modernize in one fell swoop? Democrats outside the field are as unprepared for these debates as they were on Iraq.

Getting Democrats to take defense issues seriously will not be easy; it means changing the party's basic mode of thinking. But it can be done. After all, it took less than a decade for Democrats to go from being the party of deficits to being the party more trusted for fiscal responsibility. This transformation happened because enough Democrats got tired of losing elections and did the hard work of crafting innovative and effective ideas in areas like crime and economic stewardship that the party had previously ceded to Republicans. National defense is perhaps the last big area where Democrats have not really done this. And in a time of war, it's the one area where they can't afford not to.
 
75steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 04:59
MITH - I would go along with 'political cartoonist'. She's serious and funny at the same time.
 
76Madman at work
ID: 398591212
Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 08:29
Steve h -- good article. But I still disagree with a bunch of what she is saying. I haven't seen any innovative and effective idea from a Democratic regarding the economy. Just one example.

I also think it will be much harder for the Dems to change.

And she's missing the boat by talking abot a Bush "swing". That is extremely premature at best, factually innacurate at worst. It's almost like she has no conception of what potential strategies are regarding the threat of force.
 
77Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 11:39
There is a deep and persistant logical flaw in that article. How are all the Republican ideas half-baked and misguided when they are by her own admission the party that likes to study and prepare for these eventualities? How is every modification democrats would add to these Republican plans sound, sensible, more serious, more innovative, more effective, better thot out, when she admits that Democrats are late to that table, operating from Clift Notes, not in the security game in a serious way, don't have any think tank support, are unmentored in military and security issues, are as a generation ignorant and indifferent to these issues?

I'll tell you how, thru the magic of wishful thinking.

At least she can find Iraq on the map and has the self-knowlege to know she and her party must be better prepared than they are now. I will give her that.
 
78steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 14:22
Baldwin - Guess I was just caught up in how unprepared the dems are and why.

I'll buy some [or a few, not all] ideas republicans must be [or have been] half baked [spent 26 years in military - not a perfect organization - can't with a straight face blame it all on dems], but right now a half baked republican idea [or two competing republican ideas] are probably more on the money than most democratic ideas. [note: talking strictly security and defense right now]

 
79Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 16:15
It was interesting to find a Dem willing to discuss that particular weakness of theirs so candidly. I guess that illogical flaw repeatedly introduced as litle sugar to make the medicine easier to take.

Pretty scary when the aid who's admittedly major qualification is being able to find the relevant countries on the map and recognise their abreviations is guiding representatives who haven't created their defense philosophy yet because the weather report isn't in yet.
 
80steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 16:39
Baldwin - And I think it may becoming apparent to enough swing voters that the dems do not have a philosophy on security and defense, they take political stands on security and defense.
 
81Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 19:22
Nancy Pelosi: "Conservative Catholic?"

Take it from a conservative Catholic - NOT!
 
82Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 19:37
Steve, while that point might or might not be true (I'd be willing to point to "no"), I put forth the argument that the Dems do not need a comprehensive defense policy right now. I know--sacrilege! But seriously--why do the Dems need to have a comprehensive defense strategy? Such a strategy is for the Executive Branch to propose, articulate and implement.

The Dems are the minority party in both branches of Congress and have been out of the White House for 2 years. And they are getting the rap for not having a comprehensive policy for a job that isn't theirs.

While we might enjoy the give-and-take of two parties articulating different visions of defense policy, I see no need to have such a thing. It's Bush's table to set.

I certainly expect that when the Dems come back in two years that you will hear more policy being articulated at that time (and I'd love to see another Nunn). But criticizing Dems for not articulating a clear and fluid policy distinct from Bush's assumes both that there is a strong and distinct policy (which isn't, IMO, a necessity for the Dems) and that it is their place as the minority party to put it on the table (as though they need to stop all support of the current Administration). If the Republicans are under the belief that the voters support Bush's defense policy you'd expect this kind of silence from the Dems. I'm certainly not willing to give the Republicans both their expectations of support of Bush and criticism for not non-supporting him.

pd
 
83steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 20:25
PD - I think the point being made is if they at least had more people where articulate on defense and security policies [or at least took an interest in it other than strictly for political reasons], they would not insert foot in mouth as often.

Does not have to be the elected members of Congress themselves, but more staff members, etc.

When it comes to defense, the more people that understand what's going on in policiy, procurement, etc, the better for me IMHO, no matter what party.
 
85Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 03:42
PD

You can't think your post #82 was a serious response. This disinterest in things military has been goin on since the end of the VN war and has surely impacted Democrat administrations even ignoring the advise and consent role of Congress.
 
86Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 11:10
It's Bush's table to set, but the Senate was controlled by Democrats who were charged with "advice and consent" at the very least, and with passing general appropriations bills and the right to declare war.

If declaring war, funding the military, and advising the President on international treaties doesn't require at least an understanding of what a comprehensive defense strategy should be, then I fail to understand under what principle you can criticize Bush's foreign policies.
 
87Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 12:15
I'm looking at the future. In what ways are the minority party required to do any of those things, Madman? And I recognize, again, your trick of "you have no comprehensive, competent oppositional argument so you have no standing to criticize." Bush does not engage with the Senate in any of the things you say they should be doing with him.

Looking to the past--you must be joking about the "advise" and "declaration" principles. Since when did Bush enter into either kind of dialog? Seriously. There appears to be no difference between "you have no competent policy" and "I disagree with your policy." You ask for a distinct policy in an area where there is already much agreement, and slam any differences as being lacking in understanding. Given Bush's undeniable reluctance to even take advice from the Senate, let alone recognize the ability of the body to engage in the debate, the argument become circular: Bush does not take advice from the Senate because he does not feel the need for it. Since the Senate does not advise Bush their ideas must be worthless, which justifies Bush's non-dialog.

Baldwin, there have been a number of excellent defense-oriented Democratic Senators (Nunn is a great example) and the Clinton Administration's efforts at making our military more efficient by closing bases in which were no longer needed are certainly being overlooked in your whitewash. And since the end of the Cold War I've seen little comprehensive defense policy coming from the Right, though you're welcome to try to consolidate it for me.

I just fail to see why a party in the outs who agree on a lot of the same things the Republicans do have a need for a distinct comprehensive defense policy. To make one up would be disingenuous. Think about it: If you have someone with whom you mostly agree on a particular topic, would you draft a comprehensive argument totally disagreeing with that person? It makes no sense. As does the criticism of Democrats not doing just that.

pd
 
88Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 12:34
Bush does not engage with the Senate in any of the things you say they should be doing with him.

Yeah, that's why the Senate voted on 9/11 funds, voted on the Homeland security bill, voted for new military appropriations, voted for that $10b unappropriated emergency military discretionary fund, voted to give the administration power to deal with Iraq in whatever way was necessary (basically). The Senat gave advice and consent to our representatives to the UN and elsewhere in the world.

The Democrats have no comprehensive responses to these agenda items. There is not even a coherent response. Ok, beef up airport security, but we want to make a principled stand on federalizing the workers. Ok, create a department of homeland security, but we want to make a principled stand on unionization and collective bargaining rights for employees in that department.

I mean, WTF? All of this was done while the Dems had power, BTW. Bush can't even propose legislation directly in Congress. But the Dems can't even get their act together enough to support bills that their own reps create (Lieberman and the homeland defense department).

That's why they are in desperate need of a comprehensive position. Without it, they will continue to be fragmented with each individual representative doing his/her own thing, allowing even dumb-asses like Bush to run circles around their party.

In fact, it is precisely BECAUSE they do not have a central figure like a President that the party as a whole has to get together and decide on some sort of reasonable consensus on this issue.
 
89Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 12:37
BTW, to some limited extent, assuming the Dems nominate one person for Pres. in 2004, this ambiguity will resolve itself in the next election cycle. The danger is fragmentation, however, which I really think might happen unless some new blood is found.

But the Dems this time around tried to do go without a comprehensive policy. And they got waxed for it.
 
90Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 12:43
Madman, I think the Dems need to retrench on a number of areas (defense included). But your post above takes the Dems to task for not opposing the President, isn't that right? And if they agree with the President, this is wrong? Again, you're attacking the Dems for not being different here.

Frankly, I have some problems with how the Dems rolled over in some areas, but I don't hold it against them to understand and agree with the gist of the legislation.

Bush can't propose legislation.... There's no need for that smokescreen. A phone call from the White House will get anything they want introduced into the Senate or the House. When the President of any party says "I propose that..." do you think the response is "Technically, you can't propose any legislation, Mr. President"? Cmon!

pd
 
91Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 12:55
and the Clinton Administration's efforts at making our military more efficient by closing bases in which were no longer needed are certainly being overlooked in your whitewash. - PD

Well that is hardly visionary. Everyone from every party recognized there are too many porkbarrel generated military bases and deciding which ones to close while minimizing the political consequences has been the struggle well before Clinton ever took the reigns. If you want to count 'downsizing the military' as the key to keeping America secure I will grant you the Dems have certainly been working on that one a long time.

I would be working on more than that were I a Democrat.

Or you can always nominate another guy who 'loathes the military'. Your choice...

 
92Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 13:27
But your post above takes the Dems to task for not opposing the President, isn't that right? And if they agree with the President, this is wrong?

No, I'm taking them to task for not expressing a philosophy that represents their party.

When Daaschle went on TV and said "we are 100% behind the President on foreign policy", did you actually believe that? More to the point -- WHY was he 100% behind the President? Because he agreed -- no way. He was behind him because it was politically the savvy move.

A significant fraction of the Democratic party has never agreed with this President. A part of that fraction and another part that does agree with him can't articulate why they are behind the President.

More to the point, just the very fact that the President is encouraging members of his party to propose ideas and policies and the Dems are left with agreeing or disagreeing shows the lack of intellectual effort that the Dems have put into the entire security issue. And even when someone like Loserman attempts to deviate from the cultured norm, the rest of the Democrats jump all over him and drown him out.
 
93Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 13:28
BTW, the President being unable to propose legislation is not a smokescreen. There were many cases in the last few years where Clinton either didn't or couldn't even get his proposals to the floor.
 
94Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 13:43
Re 93, in a House or Senate under control of his own party? Example, please.

As for the rest, well, you may be right, but it seems to me that, again, you're attacking the Dems for not articulating a policy they say they do not have!

I agree with a lot of it, though--I'd certainly prefer a party policy which draws distinct lines between the Democratic position and the Republican one on defense, and I think that will become clearer as the Dems start articulating the problems with the effects of the legislation. Republican legislators seem much less concerned with the of the legislation effects on civil liberties, for example, than Dems, and as Americans become more concerned about it themselves they will see that the Dems have been there all along, ahead of the curve.

Overall, though, I'm certainly willing to let Bush and the Republicans knock themselves out of office all by themselves.

pd
 
95Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 14:14
PD -- Re 93, in a House or Senate under control of his own party? Example, please.

Probably the easiest thing to do is to run through his State of the Union addresses in his last couple of years. What I am remembering are things that he was touting for awhile, couldn't find anyone in Congress to backup, and so he dropped them.

So, let's see. Let's pick a year. 1999 should work.

A search at THOMAS reveals that no bills with the words "USA Accounts" were on the floor of the 106th congress. Not surprising. Democrats aren't keen on the idea of privatizing retirement, and Republicans aren't going to go a lot further than this.

Education ... he proposed that schools with bad test scores would be shut down. Show me where that ever made it to the floor? Similarly, his proposal to have the federal government issue nation-wide disciplinary codes for individual schools was never voted on.

I can't find any record of his famous "21st century crime bill" making it to the floor of either deliberative body.

What about his 1997 proposal to subsidize schools that require school uniforms?

You can go on and on with policies and programs Clinton trumpetted that no one had the guts enough to support to bring to even bring to the floor.
 
96Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 14:53
Ah, I see what you mean. Some of these proposals almost certainly were scrapped, some were probably modified into other programs, and some might indeed have been taken up under another name. You are right.

My thought was that if the President has a specific piece of legislation that he wanted introduced that, indeed, he can pick up the phone. Its a different thing from floating trial proposals.

Half a point each on this one.

pd
 
97Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 18:15
I see what you are saying PD. But it is really hard to separate one from the other. Is it a trial balloon because you can't get others to pick up on it? Or is it a trial balloon because you really don't want it and are somehow attempting to simply gauge the audience or something? Calling it a trial balloon after the fact is something you would expect to save face.
 
98Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 5210171619
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 20:25
I suspect that a State of the Union address is the very place for a number of trial balloons. A chance for a president to stake a claim, to draw lines of agreement and disagreement, and to even dream out loud a bit.

I know that most of it is theater, but I find myself watching each one, from either party, with fascination. Sometimes I wish we had more of these kinds of speeches (like Bush's in Cincinnati, where he laid out his reasons for going after Iraq). If we could ever wean ourselves off the soundbite addiction we have, perhaps we might actually be able to engage in direct political dialog rather than trying to control media cycles through leaks, spin, and soundbite.

pd
 
99Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 21:04
I'd sure like to see the Homeland Security Bill get debated on C-span some instead of railroading it thru before the break.
 
100Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sat, Nov 16, 2002, 22:32
PD -- If we could ever wean ourselves off the soundbite addiction we have... actually, IMO, this is what the SoU's have become. One soundbyte after another. Personally, I don't listen to the SoU to hear someone's idle daydreams. I'd prefer information, analysis, commentary, and/or vision. Just me, I presume.
 
101Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sun, Nov 17, 2002, 04:31
I think you underestimate the influence of the bully pulpit. Setting the tone is important. Being forced to set administration priorities, drawing lines, challenges, goals, really the president has less power than people think and then they underestimate the bully pulpit.
 
102Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sun, Nov 17, 2002, 05:44
While you are resurecting Mondale you could always turn to the Carter Center for help developing your comprehensive security policy. He is currently recommending that US should disarm first .

That's the ticket...he won a Nobel Peace prize you know. 8]
 
103Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sun, Nov 17, 2002, 08:45
Man alive, Carter is off the deepend. What does he think Reagan and subseuent Presidents have been doing with our nuclear arsenal? Building it up???

And the one-dollar/17 dollar America/Norway foreign aid thing is grossly misleading. I believe those are government donations as a percent of GDP. America believes that the freedom to donate to charities is important and that the government should not inhibit that freedom by mandating charitable benefits (Read the Virginia Declaration of Religious Freedom for a perfect illustration of that argument). Oh yeah, that means that Americans don't give money to those in need in foreign countries.

Use whatever numbers support your point, regardless of logic. That's the ticket.
 
104steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Sun, Nov 17, 2002, 18:05
Little Headway In War On Japan

Washington DC -- January 14, 1943 (Routers)

The OSS and military intelligence came under renewed attack in Congress today for failing to find Admiral Yamamoto, with the increasing certainty that he is still alive prompting senior Republican senators to brand the effort to dismantle the Japanese military as a failure.

A leading Republican senator [Tom Daschle's grandfather] charged that the Roosevelt administration had been distracted from the fight against Japan by the invasion of Northern Africa last month.

"They are so focused on Tunisia that they aren't paying adequate attention to the war on Japan," he said in an interview.

He said that American intelligence agencies had failed to determine the extent of the Japanese threat even as the country prepared for war on the other side of the globe. Island lookouts have been seeing increasing Japanese naval activity, indicating an imminent threat to US forces.

"Just because we destroyed much of their force at the Battle of Midway last June doesn't mean that we've taken them out of action, and we still don't have positive proof that we got Yamamoto. The Japanese continue to reconstitute and rebuild in their home islands."

If Admiral Yamamoto is alive, he suggested, then the threat to the United States has increased. "If he is still alive and still in charge, that means the Japanese navy continues to have a highly capable and venomous leader."

"We can't find Yamamato, the mastermind of the attack on Pearl Harbor, and we haven't made real progress in destroying key elements of the Japanese army or their infrastructure. They continue to conquer territory, and to be as great a threat today as they were a year and a half ago. So by what measure can we claim to be successful so far?"


Copyright 2002 by Rand Simberg

Posted by Rand Simberg at November 15, 2002 08:57 AM
 
105Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sun, Nov 17, 2002, 18:24
steve h I think this is the point. The war against Japan was run so ineptly that it resulted in the greatest moral tragedy known to man. Furthermore, after the war imperialistic American aggressors occupied a foreign country. Without sensitivity to their culture, they forced the natives to learn how to play baseball and construct a democratic government. We then required them to slave away in factories for menial wages while building Toyota's that we rich American imperialists now drive.

More Americans died in World War II than in the known debacle of Vietnam. That's how bad it was. If Al Gore would have been President back in the 40's, Hirohito would have been so afraid of the US that he wouldn't have even allowed us the chance to assault his navy aviators that were on a peace patrol over Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7. Proceeding unimpeded by American aggressors, Japanese scientists would have discovered the cure to cancer, been the first to land a woman on Mars, and provided half of the military muscle behind a benevolent world government. We needed a Daaschle in the Senate back in the 1940's to promote this sort of positive vision.
 
106Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Nov 18, 2002, 15:44
Coleman, a former Democrat, was asked if he had ever voted for Walter Mondale: “I don’t remember if I voted for Mondale, it was so long ago." - Fox News Sunday
 
107Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Nov 18, 2002, 19:51
Two interesting rumor nuggets I ran across...

1)Gephart resigned to concentrate on preparing a presidential run, not falling on his sword over the election debacle.

2)Hart may run in 2004. Hey he looks like a boy scout compared to Clinton and he actually has a modicum of credibility on the national defense issues.
 
108steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Wed, Nov 20, 2002, 20:51
Where are they going? Just crying or is this a strategic plan? A beaten man?

Started this in HSB. Better over here. Or in CFC. They got no commercials 30/60 days prior. Is talk radio next? Can't mention politicians 30/60 days prior? Link to whole video at C-Cpan is in Homeland Security thread.

--------------------
Hatch Bristles Over Daschle Talk Radio Attack

[Daschle] "It's that same shrill rhetoric. It's that same shrill power. Somebody says something and then it becomes a little more shrill the next time, and more shrill the next time and pretty soon they foment this and it becomes physical in addition to just verbal.

"Certainly in terms of threats, I think that there's no question," Daschle continued, "in my time in public life it has gone up exponentially."

Reporters failed to challenge the angry Democrat about examples where Republicans have been targeted by mainstream media, such an incident two years ago when CBS's "Late Late Show" appeared to suggest it might be a good idea to assassinate President Bush.

CBS's "60 Minutes" reported Sunday that President Bush gets more than 200 threats a week, about 50 of which are taken seriously by the Secret Service.

Sen. Daschle did not reveal how many threats he receives on a weekly basis - or if he has reported any of them to law enforcement.
==============

Daschle blasts Limbaugh, religious right. Accuses talk radio of posing threat to his life, security of his family

"You know, Rush Limbaugh and all of the Rush Limbaugh wannabes have a very shrill edge, and that's entertainment. We were told that even people who don't agree with them listen because they – because they're entertaining. And, you know, but what happens when Rush Limbaugh attacks those of us in public life is that people aren't satisfied just to listen, they want to act because they get emotionally invested. And so, you know, the threats to those of us in public life go up dramatically and – on our families and on us in a way that's very disconcerting. I don't think it's appropriate for me to dwell on that or to even go beyond that. But I will say that it has created a far different dimension. When I was accused of being an obstructionist, there was a corresponding and very significant increase in the number of issues that my family and I had to deal with. And I worry about that. If entertainment becomes so much a part of politics, and if that entertainment drives an emotional movement in this country among some people who don't know the difference between entertainment and politics and who are then so energized to go out and hurt somebody, that troubles me about where politics in America is going."

Asked if he thought there was a direct link between the talk radio criticism and the threats to his personal security, he answered: "I do. Oh, absolutely."

"You know, we see it in foreign countries, and we think, 'Well, my God, how can this religious fundamentalism become so violent?'" Daschle said. "Well, it's that same shrill rhetoric, it's that same shrill power that motivates. You know, somebody says something, and then it becomes a little more shrill the next time, and then more shrill the next time, and pretty soon it's a foment that becomes physical in addition to just verbal. And that's happening in this country. And I worry about where, over the course of the next decade, this is all going to go."

---------- ?? comparing conservative talk radio listeners or the hosts to radical religious fundamentalists in foreign countries??

I'm sure there are liberal talk radio shows. And they already have 80% of TV 'news'.

ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN [extremists like Carville and Begala], MSNBC [extremists like Donahue]. Do they generate to conservative politicians?
 
109steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Wed, Nov 20, 2002, 21:01
They have to quit stealing my ideas.

Don't You Just Hate Whiner's

Now is it just me, or does this not sound like Tommy is about to launch a full scale attack on the First Amendment? And exactly how is Rush Limbaugh’s ‘shrill edge’ any different from the ‘shrill edge’ of say a James Carville? I’ve listened to Rush Limbaugh a good bit over the last 14 years and I’ve never heard him ‘attack’ anyone. I’ve heard him criticize, just like I’ve heard Tommy Daschle criticize, but I’ve [never] heard Rush attack.

----------
So where does little Tommy go from here? He’s pointed the finger, shifted the blame, now he has to take action. Just like the little whiner who claimed his homework was stolen, Tommy is saying the elections were stolen by Limbaugh and the evil right-wingers and something must be done about it! So what is the answer? What action will Tommy attempt to force upon us? He could subject us to even more ultra-liberal taxpayer funded public radio, you know, to level the field a bit. Or, he could launch that assault on the First Amendment.

Preposterous, you say? You think I’m having an ultra-conservative kneejerk reaction? Don’t be so sure. The Democrats, under the leadership of little Tommy, managed to push through the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform Bill. Remember that? Remember that it is now illegal to criticize a political candidate within 60 days of an election. Not only are little Tommy and his cohort’s intent on taking away, or at a minimum, restricting the First Amendment, but they’ve already set the plan in motion.
 
110yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 1510401914
Thu, Nov 21, 2002, 11:56
How about becoming the party of the Right to Privacy? It's looking like more of a winning cause every day.
 
111Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Nov 28, 2002, 20:14
By all means keep using the Armed forces as a giant sociology experiment.
 
112Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Nov 28, 2002, 20:20
I just about lost control of all bodily fuctions when I saw that C-130! 8]
 
113steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Mon, Dec 02, 2002, 18:00
Baldwin - missed this one. Definitely a very special C-130.

That's how some in this country think the military should operate. It is kinder gentler. I understand they do have time outs in boot camp. And get 8 hours of sleep now.

 
114Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Wed, Dec 04, 2002, 20:12
Clinton makes sense:

"We have to have a clear and strong national security stand," the New York Times quotes him as saying. The reason the Democrats lost was that "we were missing in action on national security and we had no positive plan for America's domestic future."
 
115Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 710162916
Wed, Dec 04, 2002, 22:02
Where's that from, MBJ? I'd like to read the whole thing if it was a speech.

pd
 
116Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Wed, Dec 04, 2002, 22:08
Here's a NYT link
 
117Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 710162916
Wed, Dec 04, 2002, 22:26
Good points he's making.

"When people are feeling insecure, they'd rather have someone that is strong and wrong than weak and right."

"He said his party's candidates were too often perceived as weak in the face of the continuing threat from abroad."

Good stuff. By continuing to argue against turning the party more to the left, he's making a roadmap for the party's success. With the emphasis on terrorism, traditional Left issues take a backseat for many people, and when the Dems tried to hammer on these issues they became irrelevent in many people's minds last election.

Unfortunately there aren't a lot of people out there who can take up the centrist banner Clinton first used in 1992 to move the party to the center. But he's quite right that moving to the center and continuing to confront the Republicans on issues of security are the only ways to make themselves more relevant.

pd
 
118Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 08:42



100 years old today.

Can't believe he didn't shoot Leahy the bird.
 
119Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sat, Dec 07, 2002, 06:55
You could always nominate another smug liberal from Massachusetts. That always goes over big. 8]
 
120Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Sat, Dec 07, 2002, 17:38
Any word from LA.?
 
121Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sat, Dec 21, 2002, 20:26
More regulation...always sponsor more regulation!!!

From the land of fruits and nuts: S.F. may soon see psychics regulated. Pioneering proposal would ban trickery.

The future looked cloudy for dozens of fortune-tellers and psychics in San Francisco on Thursday after legislation was proposed to require them to obtain permits, post their rates and stop tricking their clients.

Under the law, the first of its kind for a major U.S. city, fortune-tellers would no longer be allowed to perform such classic curse removals as the knot in the thread, the blood in the glass, or the hair in the grapefruit.

The bury-the-money trick would be outlawed, too.

The proposed law, which comes before the Board of Supervisors next month, covers fortune-telling by not only crystal balls, tarot cards and astrology charts, but by "sticks, dice, tea leaves, coins, sand and coffee grounds" as well. Fortune-tellers would be required to post rate cards and a phone number for complaints. Police say requiring permits would make it easier to keep tabs on swindlers.


When fraudulent fortunetellers are outlawed only honest ones will be left! Just think of being able to trust that next reading! Just thank a Democrat.

Coming next: registered bigfoot witnesses, official mindcontrol defeating foil hats, UFO abduction patrols, more government will solve everything don't you know.
 
122yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 811462012
Sat, Dec 21, 2002, 21:05
You mean my foil hat isn't UL tested?
 
123Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sun, Dec 22, 2002, 03:32
Yes in fact I believe the reason that poor lady in Illinios who had her house surrounded by the government for weeks was persecuted in response to her non-FDA approved foil hat.
 
124Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sun, Dec 22, 2002, 03:42
Here is an account of the standoff. I loved it that the people who gathered to support her chanted 'Bad Cop...No Donut' to the smiles of police who couldn't keep their terse expressions.
 
126Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 50048319
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 21:33
Yikes--the "Separated at Birth" gag lives on!

On a more serious note, I've been reading a bit about Gov Howard Dean, M.D. of Vermont. He's seems to have a very good record in the Statehouse there. I'm keeping an eye on him.

pd
 
127Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Mon, Feb 17, 2003, 21:09
Kucinich to run for President
Yet another Republican wet dream comes true.
 
128steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Mon, Feb 17, 2003, 22:52
Kucinich. He'll carry France with no problem.

Isn't he one of the Congressmen who filed suit to get an 'injunction' against Bush going to war even with a UN resolution?

How about Carol Mosley-Braun [the anti Sharpton candidate].

Single supporter braves snow to hear Moseley-Braun speech

If Carol Moseley-Braun means what she says about campaigning for president in Iowa one voter at a time, Tom Hanson had all of her attention Saturday.

Hanson was the only soul - besides a dozen members of the local news media and half as many event coordinators - to brave a foot of fresh snow to hear the former U.S. senator from Illinois speak in Des Moines on Saturday afternoon.
 
129Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 371171511
Mon, Feb 17, 2003, 23:34
I certainly like M-B better than Kucinich, but neither one will get very far. A lot of noise, and no substance.

Lieberman, Dean, and a few others will make the serious bids at the White House. But I'm interested in seeing what happens at the statehouse level. The Dems need to re-tool, and that doesn't happen top-down.

I also foresee Clinton stepping into the role that Nixon did, of a party "elder statesman" who offers advice near and far.

pd
 
130Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 23:07
Peggy Noonan lays it out right with some great advice for the Dems:

So here's my advice: Look at the clock. Know what time it is. Half the country is wondering if we are in the end times. (Excuse me, I mean they fear man may be living through a final, wrenching paroxysm, the result of man's inhumanity to man and of the inevitable culmination of several unhelpful forces and trends.) So wake up and get serious. Get your heart back, and your guts. Be constructive, not destructive. Help. If President Bush advances an agenda you deep down support, then go public and help him. If he advances what you honestly oppose, come forward with constructive alternatives.

Don't "position" yourself on issues like Iraq, think about your position on Iraq and be guided by a question: What will be good and right for America and the world? Reach your conclusions and hold to them as long as you can hold them honestly. A lot of people, not all but many, can see when you're only positioning yourselves.

Stare down the abortion lobby, the gun-ban nuts, etc. Be moderate. Make progress. The next time someone like the late Bob Casey, a popular governor of a great industrial state and pro-life due to conscience, asks to address your convention, let him. Welcome him. People like him widen the tent.

Be pro-free-speech again. Allow internal divisions and dissent. A vital political party should have divisions and dissent.

Develop a new and modern Democratic rationale--the reason regular people should be Democrats again. Stop being just the We Hate Republicans Party. That's not a belief, it's a tic.

Stop being the party of snobs. Show love for your country and its people--all its people. Stop looking down on those who resist your teachings.

Stop taking such comfort in Bill Clinton's two wins. Move on. He was a great political talent, but he won by confusing the issues, not facing them. That's a trick that tends to work only at certain times and only with powerful charisma. And even with that his leadership will be remembered, is already being remembered, as "a holiday from history," in Charles Krauthammer's phrase. And he never hit 50% of the vote in either of his victories, even when he had peace and riotous prosperity on his side. He didn't have coattails. (See Gore, Albert Jr., life of.) And he rose in large measure because George H.W. Bush broke his pledge, raised taxes, and saw the economy plummet. That was calamitous for the Republicans. Your great hope now is more calamity. If George W. Bush suffers a post 9/11 disaster at home or abroad in the next few years it may--may--propel a Democrat into the White House. But who respects a party whose great hope is widespread pain?

So stop allowing Bill Clinton to present himself as Mr. Democrat. Ask him to stay home. He reminds people of embarrassment. He uses up all your oxygen. Love him or hate him, we all know he's the personification of slick, and slick isn't what you want as the face of a great party.

Stop the ideology. A lot of Democratic Party movers and intellectuals have created or inherited a leftist ideology that they try to impose on life. It doesn't spring from life; it's forced on life, and upon people. Stop doing that--it's what weirdos who are detached from reality do. Have a philosophy instead of an ideology, hold it high and dear, and attempt to apply it, not impose it.

Respect normal Americans again, even those who are not union members. We're all touched by grace, we all deserve a voice, and you could learn a few things if you'd listen to those who've had to struggle through life.

And by the way, I'd like it if you started smoking again, at least for a while. Democrats were nicer when they smoked. Then they let all those Carrie Nation types in the party beat them to a pulp, and regular Democrats stopped feeling free to be regular flawed messy humans. That was too bad. Why don't you send the Smoking Ban Lobby back to the abortion-rights meeting, and tell them to leave you alone?

You're still one of our two great political parties. Show some class, the good kind. Throw your cap over the wall as JFK said, and boldly follow.


link
 
131Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 23:53
Asked about his recent comment to an Akron newspaper that it would be "a cold day and possibly a snowy day in hell before a liberal would get back into the White House," he responded, "Have you been checking the stories on CNN today? All over America, it's cold and snowy. I'm ready to run for president."

Holy geez. A candidate for the Democratic Nomination for President just called America Hell ... Kucinich.
 
132Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 13:36
You could always suggest the 'Reno Approach' in Iraq...
Recalling Waco, Reno Slams Bush for Stalling
(2003-01-30) -- Former U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno, recalling her handling of the Waco siege, said today that if she were president, Iraq would be engulfed in flames by now.

"What's the hold up?" she rhetorically asked George Bush. "You've surrounded a pseudo-religious maniac who's got dangerous weapons. Set the place on fire, Mr. President. Hussein's not even an American citizen. Come on! Light her up!"

Ms. Reno called Mr. Bush a "timid Texas mouse who keeps saying 'Time is running out.'"

"Well, hickory dickery dock, let's blow up the clock, for goodness sake. Flick your Bic and let's get on with it. My boys in the BATF would have been in and out weeks ago."

Ms. Reno's publicist later indicated that the medications would soon be in balance
 
133Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, Mar 31, 2003, 09:36
March 19
 
134Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Fri, Apr 18, 2003, 19:52
Pelosi both opposed the war and could have won it cheaper. That's leadership my friend.
 
135Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 20:49
A TooGood Report
The situation in Iraq has revealed a wide maturation gap between the left and everyone else. They foresaw no end to the disasters that would follow the invasion of Iraq and what do they predict now that we΄re victorious? They΄re expecting more disasters to follow the ones that never transpired in the first place, or they are trying to equivocate chaotic looting of a newly freed people with the organized executions and terror that Saddam Hussein committed for decades.

The leftist attitude towards their own politicians suggests their lack of flexibility and understanding. Unlike them, the rest of the country is not lost in a haze of self-indulgence. In March, John Edwards, one of their most marketable presidential candidates, who actually has a chance of winning in 2004, was soundly booed at the California Democrat Party convention for saying that Saddam must be disarmed “including by the use of military force if necessary.” Only a head filled with smog would think that war is never an option when dealing with evil megalomaniacs late Saddam Hussein. The leftist΄s self-righteousness will always prevent them from building effective coalitions and we should be thankful for their lack of vision regarding reality.

John Stuart Mill foreshadowed the situation magnificently:

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war is worse.”

To the adults whose minds are trapped in an earlier stage of development, nothing is worth a war, unless the war is directed against ourselves and our right to exist as an independent people.

Howard Dean was the man that they cheered in California and I sincerely hope that his supporters on the far left delude the rest of the party into giving him the nomination because he has utterly no chance of capturing a majority of the electorate. My advice to the Pelosicrats is to keep pushing useless ideas and bad candidates to the American people so we can keep pushing you further and further out the door of our democracy. Your utopian fantasies will not be missed.

Another fantasy from the supporters of men like Dean concerns the prelude to the Iraqi invasion. They argue that many of the voices that were against US action were not heard or they were silenced. No statement could be more off-base than this one. We heard the voices clearly and then efficiently discarded their views.

This accusation was made in the person of our Bizzarro president, Martin Sheen. Do you recall that wonderful photo of Sheen with his mouth taped shut (alas, the tape was removable)? Yes, he was “silenced” too because only a small fleet of reporters came to take down his sophisticated words against the president rather than the armada that he expected. Was he silenced or are we simply conditioned to the fact that there΄s no point in listening to him because he has so little to share? I suspect the latter is accurate. Sheen told us that Bush΄s real reason for invading Iraq was to please his daddy. Yes, well there you have it! Adolescent minds all think alike. There΄s always a convenient and ludicrous explanation around every corner.

I think it clear that what made these leftists really outraged was that they were not consulted about the invasion first and allowed to give their input. Like many an adolescent, they became furious that the parental figure (the United States) acted without their permission. After all, to Sheen, if he has an opinion and we don΄t adhere to it then it must be due to a conspiracy as opposed to him being groundless and inane. Like most people in love with themselves, celebrities confuse their own perceptions as being everybody else΄s. They are not. George W. Bush, with his 73 percent approval rating after the fall of Baghdad, understands this explicitly even if the left coast does not.

I think it΄s silly for them to pretend that they weren΄t being heard anyway. Every time I turned on the television, I saw some anti-war rally or some irritable celebrity. Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon along with the rest of the “green on the outside, brown on the inside” crowd were ubiquitous. Robbins himself was incensed with the traducing of his “rights” due to the cancellation of a Bull Durham film celebration in Cooperstown. He then gave a speech on April 15, 2003 at the National Press Club and claimed that he and Ms. Sarandon, “last week were told that we, and the First Amendment, were not welcome at the Baseball Hall of Fame.” This claim is lunacy because Robbins was to the airwaves what mosquitoes are to August and, besides, there is no First Amendment right to speak at Cooperstown at celebratory events.

Isn΄t the confusion between rights and privileges what is really at issue here? The left unknowingly admits that they are living the most luxurious of lives in the United States when they add all their new perks to our Bill of Rights. Now that “Right to Speak at Exclusive Ceremonies” has been added, they΄ll try to add “Right to Join Any Private Club (Augusta)” which will thereby extinguishing the meaning of the phrase “private club.” How about a “Right to Rent Control” next year or the “Right to Have Public Housing (in any city or suburb you desire)”, and the “Right to Kill Your Offspring with the Services of a Low Cost Physician?”

The best solution is to have a plebiscite to create a “gong show” format for all celebrity appearances. Then, if any of these people foolishly confuse film promotional tours with foreign policy hearings, we can just gong them back into the 1960΄s from which they came and from which they should never have escaped.
 
136Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 5039818
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 20:53
Luckily, you don't have to capture a "majority of the electorate" to be President.

I like Dean myself (as I mentioned) but thought he had troubles articulating his position on the current war. Which will be a distant memory in most voters' minds come Election Day.

Unfortunately, the piece makes the error in assuming that those on the far-left speak for the Democratic Party.

pd
 
137Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 20:58
Explain Pelosi's power position then.
 
138Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 5039818
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 21:08
I dislike Pelosi. I'm much more of a moderate Dem, which is (as I mentioned above) where I believe the future of the Party lies. The New Democrats Online put out this essay last week which maps out the good and bad of the current situation:
Democrats and the War.

Like Republicans and abortion, many Dems allow themselves to be held hostage to single-issue radicals. Democrats need to be able to isolate the far left in order to articulate their message. Unfortunately, I never thought Pelosi was the one to deliver than message.

pd
 
139Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 21:20
Unfortunately, the piece makes the error in assuming that those on the far-left speak for the Democratic Party.

So you are admitting then that Dems have not been able to isolate the far left and until they do Pelosi will in point of fact continue to 'speak for the Democratic Party' and that piece was in point of fact not in error.
 
140James K Polk
ID: 51010719
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 21:50
Tension breaker: BaldwinCorp hires a new employee
 
141Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 21:53
The guy did commit suicide a day too soon. Madison avenue headhunters were no doubt seeking him urgently with fat offers.
 
142Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 5039818
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 23:52
Baldwin #139: You remind me of Lloyd Bentsen in the Veep debate, just after Quayle gave his first (and only) JFK comparison.

Let me be more clear: I don't believe she speaks for the Dems at all, despite her position. I think the vast majority of Dems are much more moderate than the article would point out--more along the lines of MBJ and sarge than, say, Adam's G-Men. Most of these Dems are picking and choosing from candidates which only sometimes reflect their outlook and beliefs (and, at times, they find likely candidates in Republicans).

As a Party, Dems need to be much more focused on their core values, and it's not happening with many on the "hard Left."

pd
 
143PJ
ID: 382422721
Thu, Apr 24, 2003, 04:17
Baldwin #137 and anyone else who doesn't understand Pelosi's power position: let me explain.

Money. It's all about money - specifically fundraising for Democrat candidates. That's why Pelosi was elected the House Leader for the Democrats. She's a fundraiser extraordinaire. She has raised more funds for more Democrats (even moderate Democrats) than anyone other House member. Only the Clintons are more effective in raising funds for Democratic candidates than Pelosi.

She won the House Leadership election the old fashion way -- buy calling in all the political IOU's owed to her by other Democrat house members because of her tireless fundraising success for their election campaign war chests.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with her personal political values. It has ALL to do about the money she has brought into the Democratic Party, especially from non-traditional Democrat sources such as the from Fortune 500 companies.

So stop scratching your collective heads about how someone so far left of "Main Street" America could win such an important political position. It’s all about money – nothing more, nothing less.
 
144Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, Apr 24, 2003, 09:43
I understand it. PD didn't. I straightened him out. Nothing to see here folks. Please move along.

*Bentsen* Gotta work on that 'deer in the headlights' thing PD. 8] */Bentsen*
 
145Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 0059248
Thu, Apr 24, 2003, 11:32
I hear ya too, PJ. She worked for it--it's how politics works. It's how Newt got his power, too--working the room.

pd
 
146Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Sun, May 11, 2003, 21:27
Prediction of censorship.
The bottom line is that liberals are not going to take this whipping lying down. They will try to invoke the power of the state to rectify the "injustice" of their drubbing in the marketplace; it's just a matter of time. When they do they'll have some euphemistic excuse to conceal their assault on free speech. They'll say controls are necessary to protect the public interest, or to muzzle hate speech, or something equally lame. Mark my words. And be prepared.
 
147Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Sun, May 11, 2003, 22:21
Too late on that one, Baldwin. M-F is the latest effort of pols on both sides to shut people up.

George Will has a devastating piece on the conspiracy behind the "social studies" report relied on to buttress M-F
 
148UGABravesDawg
ID: 21320129
Mon, May 12, 2003, 16:59
While slightly off topic, who do you guys think will win the Democratic nomination, and, more importantly, who do you want to win?

I personally would prefer Howard Dean, I like him both politically and personality-wise. His attitude is a nice change to typical Washington stuff. The one I would least like to see is Lieberman, I really don't like him one bit.
 
149Dave K
ID: 462472019
Mon, May 12, 2003, 17:31
Gephardt will win.Lieberman was only one I liked, Dawg.Who would of thunk it? hehe
 
150UGABravesDawg
ID: 21320129
Mon, May 12, 2003, 18:01
I would say Kerry or Lieberman will win, unless Edwards comes as a dark horse (which I don't think he will). Does anyone actually want John Edwards as our president? I like him as my Senator, but definitely not as a presidential candidate. Then again, he will probably lose his Senate seat in 2004. Kerry is the best of these three, Lieberman is a "me too" Republican (at least he didn't do what most Democratic candidates in the Senate did -- vote for Bush's blank check and then tell the left they oppose the war and the right that they supported the president). In addition, Lieberman is a religious zealot -- he seems almost like a reactionary liberal. Just my take, then again, my opinion isn't much.
 
151Seattle Zen
Donor
ID: 55343019
Mon, May 12, 2003, 18:13
Dave K -

Here is a challenge for you. In the next seven days, link to a story, ANY story written by a journalist (not a blog) that predicts the Gephardt will win. He is the most experienced loser of the bunch by far. You should see his calendar in February, it is loaded with entires like this:

Feb. 2nd: dropped out of 1984 presidential election

Feb. 6th: dropped out of 1988 presidential election

Feb. 7th: Dropped out of 1992 presidential election

Feb. 11th: This is the day I would have dropped out of presidential election if that Damn Bill Clinton wasn't running for re-election.

Feb.12th: Dropped out of 2000 presidential election.

Feb. 22nd: George Washington's birthday - expected date I'll drop out of 2004 presidential election (a boy can dream, right?)
 
152Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 312481619
Mon, May 12, 2003, 19:30
Dick Gephardt: The Boston Red Sox of presidential candidacy.
 
153Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Mon, May 12, 2003, 20:44
The appeal of shifty looking albino's is questionable.
 
154Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Thu, May 15, 2003, 12:16
Minnesota becoming a 'red state'? Get Garrison Keillor on a suicide watch.
 
155Seattle Zen
Donor
ID: 55343019
Thu, May 15, 2003, 14:51
Groan.

Baldwin, what the hell are you reading the Duluth, MN newspaper for? Isn't it sunny outside? Go for a walk.
 
156Baldwin
ID: 4261155
Wed, May 21, 2003, 20:25
Another fact stranger than fiction...
The proposal, estimated to cost about $150 billion over 10 years, is just one component in a broader health care plan to be unveiled later this summer by Lieberman that he said would aim to increase coverage, improve care and rein in costs.
Scrappleface parody...
Lieberman Proposes Govt. Agency to Cut Bureaucracy
(2003-05-21) -- Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-CT, gave new energy to his presidential campaign today by proposing a $150 billion federal agency to cut government bureaucracy in health care.

Aides to the Senator said his proposed American Center for Cures would identify promising new treatments and break down bureaucratic barriers faced by small companies in drug development.

In making his announcement, Sen. Lieberman ridiculed a competing proposal by Rep. Dick Gephardt, D-MO, as another in a line of "big-spending Democratic ideas of the past."


 
157Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 108231015
Mon, Jun 30, 2003, 13:36
Ralph Nader, still blamed by many Democrats for draining critical votes from Al Gore in the 2000 race for the presidency, says he is seriously considering running in 2004

No word yet on exactly how much the Dems will be paying the team of ex-Mossad and CIA hit men for Nader's head.
 
158Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Thu, Jul 10, 2003, 07:28
The "progressives" are back. Welcome back, progressives! We haven't had a good landslide in a long time.
 
159biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 14:04
Pragmatists or pathetic pantamimes?

The DLC begins to attack any candidate who doesn't mimic the republican party. It looks like they figure Clinton was successful by co-opting a large portion of republican platform, so they are so lacking in anything approaching an original thought that they figure that's the only way to win.

Why do they even call themselves democrats?Republicans Light Counsil (RLC) would be more like it.

Pathetic and spineless. Say would you believe, not what you think will get you elected.
 
160James K Polk
ID: 51010719
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 14:29
Bili, what do you think of Howard Dean? He seems to me to be the most engaged of the candidates, although I can't say I know enough about his beliefs to form a solid opinion. But, hey, PD likes him ... :)
 
161biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 14:32
Haven't had a chance to look into Dean, though my mother, of all people, asked me opinion last week, so I better get researchin'!

A few months ago, I was thinking Kerry was the most palateble of the electables, though I don't really know much about him either.

My head has been elsewhere of late - mainly catching up on all of Bob Hope's classics. ;)
 
162biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 14:51
Well GOP.com does a pretty darn good job of selling Dean. I can't believe it's even listed as a negative site.
 
163James K Polk
ID: 51010719
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 14:57
LOL. You seen this?
 
164biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 15:07
Yeah - I perused it. Pretty cool. Reminds me of the thread Doonesbury's been on with his high-school kid volunteering for Dean.
 
165biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 15:23
Until I went back and re-read some of this thread, I thought you were joking when you said PD liked him - he will have some serious decisions to make given the rift growing between Dean and the DLC.
 
166Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 108231015
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 15:38
billi, are you a Democrat? I wouldn't have thought so. Anyway, what's more importsnt to in a Democratic Presidential canidate: Viabilty or Leftiness? They are, at this juncture, mutually exclusive - so which do you favor. As a genreally conservative Democrat, my choice is easy. Yours, I think, is not.

If the Dems pick a Howard Dean or a even a John Kerry, I don't think they'll take more than 5 states against Bush.
 
167biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 15:49
I'm not a democrat, per-se, though I will vote democratic if they provide an alternative to the republicans (which they didn't last time). I have a few pet issues that will generally get me your vote -

- Universal health care
- changing the funding base of public education
- A variety of environmental issues.
- removal of the Designated Hitter (after 'Gar retires, of course)

So far, it looks like Dean hits on 3 of the 4. I'm reading the details of his health care proposal now.

I see the Gephardt also has a universal health care proposal too, however.

I am not adverse to "wasting" my vote if a 3rd party or indy candidate more accurately reflects my views, and I think we as a country would be better off if more people choose that route. I dislike the chicanery that the 2 parties go through to keep candidates from other parties from having any chance. It leads to stagnation of the political system and a growing disaffection of the majority to politics in general.
 
168Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 16:36
How do you want to change the funding base of public education?
 
169biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 16:42
Funding of schools at a local level puts less money in the hands of schools whose needs are greater than schools in comparatively more wealthy districts. I would like to see the funding decisions modified so that student's needs are the deciding factor in how much funding a school receives, not whether they happen to have been born, or been fortunate enough to have moved, into a wealthy district. I would leave (or in some cases of large beauracracies, narrow) the educational decision making with regard to how that money is spent to the local level.
 
170Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 16:44
Does that mean more funding in disadvantaged areas automatically, or else how do you do this student's need assessment?
 
171biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 16:51
Funding would be based on a variety of measures, including special ed. requirements, testing, cost of living for teachers, class sizes, graduation rates as well as anything else that would be indicative of how well or poorly the school is fulfilling it's mandate.

I fully recognize that money isn't the only answer to our troubled public schools, but that certainly isn't an excuse for under-funding those schools that are the neediest. Funding positions that attempt to engage parents in a students success and failures might be worthwhile as well.
 
172Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 16:52
Interesting idea.
 
173biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, Jul 29, 2003, 17:04
Yeah - it would have to be incorporated with a greater ability to hire and fire, both in the beauracracy and in the class-room. Otherwise you would just be rewarding for incompetence. I suppose you could set up goals for improvement using similar criteria, but as in any field, you need to have some way of weeding out the dead wood and rewarding the stars. Giving local adminstrators more power but also more responsibility for failure is a necessity.
 
174steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Wed, Jul 30, 2003, 08:34
Like this in 'bili's link.

When a reporter asked a panel of council leaders whether Democratic woes were a result of Republican attacks or Democratic mistakes, Senator Bayh responded with a curt two-word answer that silenced the room.

"Assisted suicide," he said.


===========

How the democratic party died from "Assisted suicide"? By reaching out to NC, SZ and a tree as 'mainstream' USA. Why? They did not understand why they were not in the majority and rather than represent 'the majority' of their party, they slowly did away with themselves like lemmings following NC, SZ and tree off the cliff.

The democratic party will return one day [maybe under a differnt name] with a different face because the republicans will probably make the same mistakes and let extremist groups completely run the party.
 
175biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 30, 2003, 09:17
Watchoo talkin' about, Willis. Ask NC, SZ and tree who they voted for in the last election. I'm guessing at least two out of three didn't vote democrat.

If they were following them, they were doing an an extremely bad job of tracking.
 
176Tree, also @ work
Donor
ID: 599393013
Wed, Jul 30, 2003, 14:28
presumeably you're talking about the presidential election bili, and yes, i did vote democrat actually.

believe it or not, i don't vote for party lines. i vote for the candidate that best represents issues i believe in, and sadly, Al Gore was as close as it got.

some liberals, are too liberal for my taste, and if steve thinks that myself, SZ, NC are way left of center, he'd probably be scared completely off by true leftists. there are people so far to the left of me, that they think i'm nearly as much of a fascist as GW Bush.

Al Gore was the better candidate, and IMHO, the reason he lost was that instead of cozying up to Bill Clinton, he preferred to go at on his own, and couldn't even win states he had no business losing. Al Gore ran a piss-poor campaign, and that's part of the reason that i'm glad i probably don't have to worry about him running again in 2004, when the Democrats have a solid shot, as polls indicate, of winning with "whoever runs against Bush"

peace,
Tree
 
177James K Polk
ID: 51010719
Wed, Jul 30, 2003, 16:58
Bili, if I ever become president, here's an open invite to be my Secretary of Education. I agree with all you're saying.
 
178Seattle Zen
Donor
ID: 55343019
Sat, Aug 02, 2003, 13:24
If the Dems pick a Howard Dean or a even a John Kerry, I don't think they'll take more than 5 states against Bush.

MBJ, you are high, doesn't KY drug test its ultimate fighters?

Howard Dean appeals to Middle America, church going blue collar Dems; old, cantankerous Independants. He is feisty and will generate a large turnout in 2004.

Five states you say, hope you realize that they will be the largest EC states. I'll conceed Texas, but the rest of the top six will be Red on Nov. 2004. Takes a lot of Utahs and Wyomings to catch up.
 
179biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Mon, Aug 11, 2003, 19:22
I'm reading a working paper right now that highlights the problem of intra-district funding disparities in addition to the inter-district disparities I was lamenting above.

The issue here is caused by teacher salary averaging. When working up budgets, the district assumes a similar distribution of teacher salaries across schools. In reality, however, the poorer, and poorer-performing schools are where the inexperienced, low-paid teachers tend to end up, causing them to subsidize, in essence, the wealthier schools to paying the higher salaries. In some instances this causes schools to be shortchanged up to a million dollars annual that they can never recoup.

So instead of the students who have the greatest need getting extra funds to attract highly qualified teachers that might be able to make a difference among those kids at particular risk of failure, they get less money and inexperienced teachers.

We need to move away from salary-averaging and make sure we (at the very least) pay the same for per-pupil cost within district, if not within state and (god forbid) country.

I won't push it by going international. ;)
 
181steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Tue, Aug 12, 2003, 02:12
Hard to fund education [teachers] 'equally' when the cost varies so much from area to area [even in one state].

EXAMPLE: An E-7 with dependents in the military with the same job and the same time in service makes is paid drastically different amounts of money based on where they are stationed.

REASON: Cost of housing/rent/insurance/utilities. Cost is to cover Basic Allowance for Housing [BAH].

An E-7 stationed in Fresno California gets an allowance [not taxable] of $3800 more a year than an E-7 stationed in Pine Bluff Arkansas. And an E-7 in stationed in San Francisco gets $22000 more than the E-7 in Fresno.

An E-7 stationed in Watertown New York gets an allowance of $3200 more than the E-7 in Pine Bluff Arkansas. And an E-7 stationed in New York City gets $14000 more than the E-7 in Watertown.

And to take home that much cash in a civilian job, add 22-30% to make up the cost difference needed just to live in different areas.

My sister teaches in the Grand Rapids Michigan area [Rockford School District]. Has a master's degree [BA was in journalism]. She has taught for 15 years and makes $55K and had 4 kids that went to that school district [still 2 going]. But she would need a salary of $64K just to break even in Ann Arbor Michigan based on the difference in Cost of Living and housing costs.

=========

How about this? Federal government and state fund school districts based on area to meet minimum costs of an education in that area. Local schools districts could add to that as they choose with property taxes to add what they want for 'extras'.

If I vote 'YES' to raise my local millage or sales tax for school activities/costs/extras or to raise teacher salaries higher, I should not be punished by losing my minimum fair share [should I]?
 
182biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, Aug 12, 2003, 14:50
I was just getting around to responding to Toral when his post disappeared? What happened? Did you read the paper and realize your issues were addressed in it?

Steve - certainly you should take into account cost of living for the district (see post #171).

Your idea at the end flies in the face of the reality that those in areas with a comparitively low local property tax base tend to need more money, not less.

If our goal is to educate all kids, and attempt to allocate additional resources to kids that need the most help (generally poorer districts), then your "local added" tax would do just the opposite. We shouldn't be punishing kids for having the misfortune of growing up in a poor household, we should be striving extra hard to make up for those shortcomings and giving them every tool they need to succeed where their parents may have failed. Your plan would do just the opposite.
 
183Baldwin
ID: 111112015
Thu, Sep 11, 2003, 09:05
Dennis Miller -
"Good guy, just a bad governor. The only thing I have against Gray Davis is, you know, let's face facts. California is circling the crapper at the speed of light.

The deficit doesn't even bother me that much. ... They talk about us owing like $400 billion or something. I always think, 'Do we actually owe somebody that?' And if we do, you know, don't pay 'em. Nobody pays us! There ya go, I just solved the deficit."

On national politics and the Democratic debates:

"Those are frightening affairs. That is such an empty-headed scrum those Democratic debates. I tune in, you see all nine of them together, it's like a Pez-dispenser sιance."

"Dick Gephardt. Most politicians are transparent, this guy's literally translucent. I sometimes think I can see Janet Leigh showering on the other side of him."

"Joe Lieberman. I never thought you'd hear this coming out my piehole, but he's no Gore."

"Al Sharpton's ramblings have gone so far afield now, somebody's gonna have to install an On-Star button in the middle of his forehead."

Rep. Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif.

"You know all the Democrats are going to hell in a handbasket. Now they got [California's] Nancy Pelosi. ... You ever see she has that pop-eyed look all the time? I always thought she might be hyper-thyroid, but then I heard her speak a couple times. She's stupid! The reason her eyes are so wide is that she's as shocked as we are that she made it that high!"

"Robert Byrd, this guy stands there and lectures Bush in the well of the Senate. He was in the Ku Klux Klan! He's demented. You know this guy's burning the cross at both ends! And you know something, if Robert Byrd were your grandfather and he came to Thanksgiving dinner and went off one of these demented screeds, everybody would sit there smiling at him, and as soon as he left the room, somebody'd say, 'Hey, what the hell are we gonna do about grandpa?'"

"And the Clintons won't shut up. If that marriage were any more about convenience, they'd have to install a Slim-Jim rack and a Slurpee machine at the base of the bed.
 
184biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 589301110
Thu, Sep 11, 2003, 09:31
Pez dispenser seance. He He.
 
185Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 19:51
Kentucky has elected, tonight, its first Republican governor in my lifetime.

Hmmm.....
 
186Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 19:55
Who was it who said, "All Politcs Is Local." Tip O'Neill is associated with that in my mind, but the saying is probably much older.

Toral
 
187Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 14826271
Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 20:17
I think I said it once here, when asked why I was a member of the Democratic party. :)
 
188Madman
Donor
ID: 398591212
Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 10:36
biliruben 179 -- I find your argument that a highly paid 65 year old (and possibly senile) high school teacher will connect with today's youth better than an energetic 22 year old straight out of college to be extremely perplexing.

The wedge in market forces caused by unionized teachers cannot be ignored. Perhaps all of this is addressed later in the paper when it defines "more qualified"?
 
189biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 10:46
The key here isn't age, though I would tend to think more experience is better, on average. The key is that the richer, more sought-after districts essentially get to pick and choose who they want, regardless of salary considerations, and the poorer, needier districts get the dregs, and don't even get the cash difference from salaries to somehow try and make up for the less sought-after, less experienced teachers. Then as soon as the good, less experienced teachers show they are quality, they move to a better district, starting the cycle all over again.
 
190Madman
Donor
ID: 398591212
Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 11:13
br -- I think you are dramatically overestimating the ability of school districts to determine which teachers are quality and which are not in the hiring process. And they obviously have extreme restrictions placed upon them regarding acting upon such information once they have made their hires.

More critically, your assertion that those who have learned the best and most recent teaching techniques are less qualified to connect with troubled youth is rather humorous. To the extent that your hypothesis is true, it is a damning critique of our higher educational system.

All in all, I just find it perplexing. If I was supreme dictator and allowed to pick teachers to send to the schools where the kids were unruly or otherwise refusing to learn (which is how I view "failed" schools), I'd pick younger teachers (2-10 years experience) with the energy and enthusiasm and idealism to make a difference. I'd want teachers who aren't set in their ways, open to new ideas, and who have recently made the conscious decision that yes, they want to make a difference in the lives of children.

But, apparently, that's just me.
 
191biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 11:20
Then send them with the extra resources they need to overcome the larger challenge. Don't supply them with less funds to do the harder job.
 
192Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 12:22
It isn't that clear cut, Madman. I agree with some of what you say, especially regarding motivation and flexibility in approach. My significant other is a 2nd year teacher in an inner-city neighborhood at an under-performing school. She will tell you that the more experienced teachers are far better at dealing with behavior problems.
 
193Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 30792616
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 15:49
Toral, the "All Politics is Local" was coined by Tip (it's also the name of his memoir).

Not surprising that this forum neglected to mention the victory by the Dems in the LA governor race. If you can't bash it don't mention it at all, it seems:

NY Times story (reg required)

Christian Science Monitor article
 
194Seattle Zen
Donor
ID: 55343019
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 18:06
I sincerly doubt that was the last time we hear Bobby Jindal's name.
 
195Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 30792616
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 18:11
Yeah, I'll be looking for him in the Sunday NY Times crossword soon.

I joke, I joke!

You're probably right about that, Zen.

pd
 
196steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Wed, Nov 19, 2003, 13:29
I voted for Jindal, but was not real concerned if Blanco was elected as far as state issues. She's a moderate republican with a [D] after her name.

It's a dem state. Foster got elected [was a dem] I think because voters finally decided after electing democrat Edwin Edwards 4 times [federal charges during every term - finally landed in jail last year, along with the last THREE democrat Insurance Commisioners and the prior Elections Commissioner], maybe they'd kind of try something different.

So they elected former democrat State Senator Mike Foster who ran as a republican. Blanco is as conservative as Foster, she's pro life. She was the LT GOV and has never lost a public election.

I took the time to vote early absentee because it actually looked like it might be close and I was going to be out of town on the 15th. Early on, local 'pundits' said Jindal had no chance [guess he didn't - he lost]

Jindal is definitely more conservative than Blanco, but turnout was low, no major differences. For me, it would have been like who to pick in a primary of your own party if based strictly on state issues. It was easy with talk of Breaux retiring early if a dem governor was elected. I wanted two "NEW" candidates running in 2004 if Breaux retires. Not one who had been appointed for a year by a dem governor. Breaux has said he will decide over Thanksgiving if he is going to run again in 2004. He 'claims' he has no intention of retiring early.

But Jindal does probably have a place in state or national politics in the future. He's not even old enough to be president. Only 32 and his bio already looks impressive.

Only problem Blanco will have initially will be dealing with reaction to ads she ran last few days of campaign that were lies about Jindal's record on health care. Only heard about that after I got home. Jindal was recommended by John Breaux to sit on commission with feds to come up with plan to fix Louisiana's problems with Medicare [state owed feds a couple billion dollars due to improper schemes to cheat system and get more money for state]. Her campaign ran ads with people in wheel chairs saying Jindal had cost them their health care. Not true.
 
197Myboyjack
ID: 06141920
Mon, Nov 08, 2004, 20:41
Howard Dean cnsidering attempt at disbanding Democratic Party for good.
 
198Tree
Donor
ID: 599393013
Mon, Nov 08, 2004, 21:07
maybe in the process he can teach republicans to not only be funny, but to spell.

this party needs a shot in the arm after losing two straight elections to a moron with a radical religious agenda of persecution, oppression, and denial of rights.
 
199The Splinter
ID: 91025176
Wed, Nov 17, 2004, 20:06
Heh heh...

Gotta love the bitterness
 
200ukula
ID: 259101021
Wed, Nov 17, 2004, 20:39
Splinter - sounds like you have nothing of substance to add to this thread. You fall into the same category as Tree (the American Taliban).
 
201Tree
ID: 510231619
Wed, Nov 17, 2004, 20:54
Splinter - sounds like you have nothing of substance to add to this thread. You fall into the same category as Tree (the American Taliban).

sorry guys, i simple can't resist...
your choice ukula...





the last one is my fave. :o)
 
202The Splinter
ID: 91025176
Thu, Nov 18, 2004, 19:58
What Direction?
 
206Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Nov 20, 2004, 10:31
There was a system glitch with this thread last night. I'm going to be doing some testing on it over the next few minutes. Please ignore.
 
207Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Nov 20, 2004, 11:28
I was unable to reproduce the glitch which caused most of this thread to vaporize last night. I was able to recover most of the thread, but posts 203-205 were lost (from Baldwin, nerveclinic, and The Splinter).

This morning, I implemented a more thorough backup process until I can figure out what went wrong. If anyone notices a problem (and it will be very obvious) when a reply is made to a thread, please report it ASAP. At a minimum, I should be able to recover just about everything that is lost. Hopefully, I'll also be able to diagnose the source of the problem.

... We now return you to your regular programming, joined in progress ...
 
208Baldwin
ID: 1110222012
Sat, Nov 20, 2004, 13:22
FWIW it happened when I posted a cut and paste. I wonder if I inadvertantly pressed the new RSS link in the process. Just a wild guess. Or there was something screwy with the way the section I pasted was laid out.
 
209Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 144192417
Sun, Nov 21, 2004, 18:00
Splinter: "What Direction?"

You win the "AMEN! From The Congregation Of The Day Award".
 
210biliruben
ID: 3110231016
Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 14:33
What Hume can teach us about our partisan divisions

How can "the Left" can get across to "the Right"? To figure out how to do this, we need to understand what divides us. On this question, Hume offers indispensable guidance. In his great essay, "Of Parties in General," Hume argued that partisan divisions can be traced to three sources: differences in interest, differences in principle (ideology), and differences in affection (identity politics: sympathy for "us," antipathy against "them").
---

Finally, we must confront the least-discussed source of the Left's political misfortunes: identity politics. Hume recognized that identity politics is at least as much about mobilizing antipathy toward "them" as it is about shoring up solidarity among "us." Although the fractious Democratic party contains elements of identity politics among its constituents, liberal politicians, committed to universalist, cosmopolitan principles, have never had much stomach for playing it themselves. The current conservative complaints about the contempt blue-staters have for red-staters ignores this difference. While there are plenty of secular liberal Democrats in the rank-and-file who hold fundamentalist Christians in contempt, no Democratic party leader has based a campaign on railing against "Bible-thumping religious fanatics." By contrast, Republican party leaders have been playing a nasty style of identity politics for a long time, ranging from outrageous smear campaigns against individual Democrats (e.g., Swift Boat Veterans against Kerry) to demonization and mockery of broad groups of Democratic constituents (blacks, gays, feminists, liberals, immigrants, single mothers, seculars, urban cosmopolitans, environmentalists, trial lawyers, etc.). They have aggressively mobilized every form of antipathy--hatred, contempt, fear, resentment, anger--against the Left, making it timid and ashamed of itself. No incident was more telling in this regard than the moment in the Bush-Dukakis debates when Bush held up Dukakis' membership in the ACLU as a point of dishonor, and Dukakis failed to respond, choosing instead to change the subject to "competence." By such means, Republicans successfully turned "liberal" into a pornographic term, fit for mention ("the L-word"), but not use.


Read it all.
 
211Baldwin
ID: 17114795
Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 06:47
no Democratic party leader has based a campaign on railing against "Bible-thumping religious fanatics." - Bili
It will be interesting to use Hume's distinctions but for the moment I was struck by your claim.

Right now the MSM is an operational wing of the democratic party with operatives hopping back and forth between the two. They very definately are waging identity politics warfare when they invariable identify anyone to the right of Olympia Snowe as 'far right', 'fundamentalist' and 'religious right', phrases spit out with easily as much venom as I reserve for liberals.
 
212Tree
ID: 510231619
Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 21:52
MoveOn to Democratic Party: 'We Own It'
 
213Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 23:33
Ugh. Memo to MoveOn: Pissed-off extremism isn't going to actually elect many people.
 
214Sludge
ID: 571125720
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 00:20
That's right, PD. People casting votes elect people.

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)
 
215Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 00:26
Heh heh.

MoveOn had their proudest moment with Howard Dean. How sad is that? They have little respect for anything from the middle rightward.
 
216Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Dec 23, 2004, 14:16
Democratic Leadership Rethinking Abortion

well, if the Democratic party is gonna split, this'll do it. we'll have the Democrats, and the Move On Party.

if the Dems start seriously changing the platform on abortion, that definitely gets me gone.
 
217Gmoney
Donor
ID: 5810561615
Thu, Dec 23, 2004, 16:29
That is positive news indeed. The article says it wouldn't change their overall stance but it did say that they would be willing to look at a more middle ground position on abortion.

 
218sarge33rd
ID: 711271021
Fri, Dec 24, 2004, 00:52
now if only the right could move abit toward the middle, we just might get somewhere.
 
219Baldwin
ID: 441129247
Fri, Dec 24, 2004, 08:29
What exactly is an reasonable middle ground position on mass murder?
 
220Tree
ID: 510231619
Fri, Dec 24, 2004, 10:12
What exactly is an reasonable middle ground position on mass murder?

ask GW. he's 100 percent in favor of it, what with his support of the death penalty, war, and the murdering of people with brown skin. perhaps HE can tell you, but i doubt it...
 
221sarge33rd
ID: 711271021
Sat, Dec 25, 2004, 02:39
until Baldy, you surrender the term murder and recognize it as a medical procedure....you will NEVER find a middle ground. Your air-of-superiority, leaves that potentiality....out in the cold.


I know, you're proud that it does. Isnt pride a sin?
 
222Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Fri, Jan 07, 2005, 17:42
Hillary's Campaign Finance Director indicted
 
223wolfer
Sustainer
ID: 18639422
Tue, Jan 11, 2005, 07:32
Darkhorse for 2008, maybe?
 
224Tree
ID: 76471215
Tue, Jan 11, 2005, 13:35
Feingold's record

for the most part, i like what i see. i also believe he is pro-israel, and that with him being a leftist, is a nice combo...
 
225Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Tue, Jan 11, 2005, 15:10
Religious affiliation: Jewish. (Nov 2000)

I'd love to have him, but that is a stumbling block in places like Ohio.

That's a great site, Tree.
 
226Tree
ID: 76471215
Tue, Jan 11, 2005, 15:34
I'd love to have him, but that is a stumbling block in places like Ohio.

hasn't stopped him in wisconsin....
 
227sarge33rd
ID: 711271021
Tue, Jan 11, 2005, 20:07
If a war criminal can win re-election, a jew has a pretty fair shot at it I'd think.
 
228Baldwin
ID: 500121617
Sun, Jan 23, 2005, 21:40
Interesting even if I don't take the conclusion seriously. How redistribution politicians would ever convince anyone they had an efficient and fair scheme is beyond me.
 
229sarge33rd
ID: 200262316
Sun, Jan 23, 2005, 22:24
every politician is a "redistribution" politician Baldwin. You still havent gotten it have you? Dems like to play "Robin Hood" while Reps like to play "Sheriff of Nottingham". One group wants to take and give while the other wants to take and keep.

Not truly all that different.
 
230Baldwin
ID: 500121617
Sun, Jan 23, 2005, 22:40
No, here's the difference.

Republicans say 'Everyone has been overtaxed, let's give everyone back the % they were overtaxed'.

Somehow Democrats translate that into taxbreaks for the rich. How can getting your own money back be taking?
 
231sarge33rd
ID: 440332322
Sun, Jan 23, 2005, 23:40
cause it isnt "your own". govts need revenue to provide any services for the society.

our govt happens to provide us with the best living conditions on the planet. why is it you somehow feel as if you shouldnt have to contribute to that? You draw heavily from the rights, why not pay heavily to protect them for your offspring?

I personally have no problems with paying my fair share of taxes. when I made 6 figures, I paid very heavy as a percentage of my income. odd thing was, I still had plenty to save some, support my family, entertain ourselves etc etc etc.

Have had many of the usual "water cooler" discussions at work re "what if you won the lottery...". the absolute stupidest response (which I hear all too often) is, "gddmn govt would take 1/2 of it for taxes." To which I reply. "so the fvck what? You get 10 mill net handed to you, which is some 250 years of labor at 40k/yr, and you're gonna biatch about the taxes?????"

for my money, folks need to get OFF the "its my money" bandwagon and get onto the "its our society" one. we dont provide food for that poverty stricken couple down the street, they'll do something so they can eat. might be B&E to take your TV down to a pawn shop, might be prostitution, might be dealing drugs. they'll do something though, to avoid starving.
 
232Baldwin
ID: 500121617
Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 00:24
our govt happens to provide us with the best living conditions on the planet - Sarge

*incredulous look*

Free enterprise and a government that stays out of the way more than most and taxes less than most is the cause of that living standard along with the industrious inventive character of our people. I would like to see even more of that. You would like to become less like that.

 
233Tree
ID: 0050319
Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 06:47
quite frankly, i'd love to actually see what would happen if we were to completely eliminate taxes.

let's see what happens when all that blue state money doesn't exist to go into the red state coffers. we'll see how quick that changes people's minds...
 
234sarge33rd
ID: 440332322
Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 06:48
selfishness Badlwin. Pure, unadulerated selfihness is the base motivator behind "pure" capitalaism. That very thing, would prevent charity from filling the needs. Hence was created the SS program in the first place. Why did we need it? Because prior to that, people would bear 15 kids. Partly out of mortality rates and partly to ensure that a "family" of some size would be there to take care of Mom and Dad in their old age. When that trend went away and sons and daughters no longer provided for Mom and Dad, those folks started living in severe poverty. Hence, Soc Sec was born to provide a modicum of income for seniors.

Dont even raise your banner of charitable works. Had that been sufficient for the task, Soc Sec would not have been created. Fact is, charity is participated in by US corporate entities ONLY because of the tax breaks they derive. (Yes, there is "goodwill" to be sure. But w/o the tax breaks, you'd see corporate donations dry up like OK in the 1930's.)

Why else for ex, did Nerve when buying a car, invest literally hundreds of hours (whats THAT time worth?) and then PAY another company, so he could save $1000 on a car purchase? Spend that same money at the dealership and the salesman make $250. Buy a new car at invoice, and the salesman makes $75. No profit on the sale (holdback is NOT profit) no commission.

Point in that wasnt to "cry" about my biz, but to point out how even here, those amongst us who are deemed "socially conscious" are out first to protect their wallet. That is afterall, the capaitalist way.
 
235sarge33rd
ID: 440332322
Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 06:58
w.o taxees Tree, we'd see mass starvation within our own borders. We'd see epidiemics of illness, flu as a killer again.

W/O taxes, thre would be no redistribution of wealth to ensure at least some degree of life-quality for those who encounter some unfortunate life event(s).

Contrary to the apparent belief of many Reps, most poverty is not caused by laziness or lack of effort on the part of the poor. I've seen multiple working couples go from $80k annual household income to less than $25k through downsizing, outsourcing, injuries, illness and other job loss occurances. W/O new opportunities to replace the old job, there is no hope of returning to that income level. Mortgages get foreclosed, cars get repo'd, collections get filed....game over.
 
236Myboyjack
ID: 121159118
Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 07:10
Dude, she's is so totally running in '08

She's been positioning herself towards the Right, speaking at Churches, becoming palatable to moderate America. It's on. It's definitely on.
 
237sarge33rd
ID: 440332322
Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 07:14
if she does, she'll have my vote.
 
238Baldwin
ID: 500121617
Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 12:28
It's really going to be comical in a tragic sort of way, with some of the hypocritical stances she is going to take to appeal to the swing voters and red states. We already know she is going to pose as a fighter against illegal immigration. That is going to be so false and so funny.

Not that there isn't ludicrous posturing on the right as well, what with the surreptitious neo-con big-government takeover of the Reagan/Gingerich party.
 
239Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 12:47
She's already in the middle, MBJ. It's just that the Right has tried to paint her as a hydra for so many years that people forget her actual positions. Indeed, the effectiveness of the cry of "liberal" is because it's ability to mask positions, not draw them out.
 
240Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 13:02
Mark Steyn Rules all He Surveys

I picked up the Village Voice for the first time in years this week. Couldn't resist the cover story: ''The Eve Of Destruction: George W. Bush's Four-Year Plan To Wreck The World.''

Oh, dear. It's so easy to raise expectations at the beginning of a new presidential term. But at least he's got a four-year plan...

Don't ask me why. Byrd, the former Klu Klux Klan Kleagle, is taking a stand over states' rights, or his rights over State, or some such. Whatever the reason, the sight of an old Klansman blocking a little colored girl from Birmingham from getting into her office contributed to the general retro vibe that hangs around the Democratic Party these days. Even "Eve Of Destruction," one notes, is a 40-year-old hippie dirge.

The other day David von Drehle of the Washington Post did a monster tour of what he called "The Red Sea" -- Bush country -- and went to almost painful lengths to eschew the condescension the coastal media elite usually apply to their rare anthropological ventures into the hinterland. But in the middle of his dispatch was this quote from Joyce Smith of Coalgate, Okla.: "When Kerry said he was for abortion and one-sex marriages, I just couldn't see our country being led by someone like that."

Von Drehle added: ''Later, I double-checked what Kerry had said on those subjects. During his campaign, he opposed same-sex marriage and said that abortion was a private matter.''

If the point is that Red Staters are ignorant, double- or even triple-checking John Kerry isn't the best way to demonstrate it. Insofar as I understand it, Kerry's view on abortion was that, while he passionately believes life begins at conception, he would never let his deeply held personal beliefs interfere with his legislative program. On gay marriage, likewise. That's why gay groups backed Kerry and why von Drehle's media buddies weren't running editorials warning that a Kerry presidency would end "a woman's right to choose": They understood his deeply passionately personally deep personal passionate beliefs were just an artful but meaningless formulation designed to get him through election season. Message: If Kerry's elected, abortions will continue and gay marriage will happen and he'll be cool with both. Joyce Smith understood that. Von Drehle seems vaguely resentful that she wasn't dumb enough to fall for the spin cooked up by Kerry's hairsplitters and enthusiastically promoted by his media cheerleaders.

There's a big lesson for the Democrats there that goes way beyond the merits of abortion or gay marriage. On Sept. 11, the world came unspun: There's no shame in acknowledging, as Condi Rice did last week, that previous policy -- Republican and Democrat -- toward the Middle East is wrong. But there's something silly and immature about a party that, from Kerry to Boxer to Byrd, can't get beyond spin, grandstanding and debater's points: Joyce Smith sees through it, even if David von Drehle thinks it's ingenious. If the president's speech yoked idealism and realism, that doesn't leave much for dissenting Dems except their own peculiar combination of cynicism and delusion.
 
241Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 13:24
Baldwin #240(from Steyn)
If the president's speech yoked idealism and realism, that doesn't leave much for dissenting Dems except their own peculiar combination of cynicism and delusion.

Baldwin #238
Not that there isn't ludicrous posturing on the right as well, what with the surreptitious neo-con big-government takeover of the Reagan/Gingerich party

It must be an incredible challenge to reconcile those two opposing positions for conservatives, at least ones that are honest with themselves.
There was no realism in the President's inaugural wish for spreading democracy and ending tyranny. It was ludicrous neocon posturing that his spokespeople had to attempt to clarify the next day, eventually conceding that the details would be made clear in his SOTU address.
Democrats should hold Bush to that clarification. If the President dodges the specifics, it will be the Republicans left with a peculiar combination of idealism and delusion and the rest of the country steeped in cynicsm, wondering if somewhere in the Oval Office there is any sense of realism.
 
242Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 13:43
Interesting that Baldwin picks Steyn over Peggy Noonan here.
 
243Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 13:48
PV

It must be an incredible challenge to reconcile those two opposing positions for conservatives

Re: neo-con internationalism...

Paleo-con insistance on holding to the FF's advice to avoid foreign entanglements becomes harder and harder the more people there are who are willing and able to hop on a plane and six hours later commit terrorism.

Isolate that?

Re: neo-con fondness for Orwellian security measures...That is easier to still oppose and hard to stomach.

Re: neo-con love of big government federalism and cooresponding big spending...That is also easy to still oppose and hard to stomach.
 
244Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 14:04
Just trying to help out the 'reality based' party, Lol...more Mark Steyn.
When he drops by a diner on Main Street in some nowhere burg to pretend to eat a hot dog for a photo op, the waitress might well be like the lady who served me lunch on Sunday: she has her own house-cleaning business, but does some part-time work at the local school and a couple of shifts at the diner for a bit of extra cash.

She's a small business, and she knows more about her tax return than Teresa Heinz Kerry knows about hers. Mrs Kerry farms it out to the best advisers money can buy, and they do a grand job: she's one of the richest women in the world and she paid 12 per cent tax last year. It makes no difference whether the tax rate is 20 per cent, 50 per cent or 88 per cent: the Kerrys of the world will still pay 12 per cent.

The American people don't want to be condescended to by ketchup heiresses, billionaire currency speculators, $20-million-a-picture Hollywood pretty boys, and multi-millionaire documentary-makers posing as bluecollar lardbutts.

The Democrats keep talking to people as if they're like John Edwards's 40-year mill-workers, but that's not what work is any more, and a 23-year-old hairdresser can know enough about starting and running a business to be unimpressed at a few footling tax credits dangled in front of her by a 60-year-old lifelong "public servant" lucky enough to be living a grand old life thanks to his billionaire wife's first husband.
 
245Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 14:53
And which candidate proposed raising taxes on the highest earning taxpayers? Hmmmm
 
246Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 481152817
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 17:09
Sarge: "selfishness Badlwin. Pure, unadulerated selfihness is the base motivator behind "pure" capitalaism."

Sarge, I'm curious, just how much of your income do you donate to charities or just hand out to families in need.

Do you only donate to charity for the tax deduction? A cursory $500 or $1000 donation doesn't count. I'm talking about sharing your income with those less fortunate.

If your beliefs are so true and you're so dedicated, then why don't you forsake 1/2 of your income and share it with those that could really need it?

During your times that you made in excess of 100k, did you really need all that money? Didn't a poor family in Iowa need it more?

Back up your talk or pipe down.
 
247Motley Crue
      ID: 265321611
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 17:25
Where's Tree when you need him?

Oh, I forgot, he only posts stories about Republicans.

Not to be outdone, these Democrats went around on Election Day slashing tires so that the Republican campaigners wouldn't be able to get their voters into the polls.

The sons of a first-term congresswoman and Milwaukee's former acting mayor were among five Democratic activists charged Monday with slashing the tires of vans rented by Republicans to drive voters and monitors to the polls on Election Day.

Former acting mayor? Sheesh.

The direction of the Democratic party in this particular case may be toward prison, but certainly will be probation at least.
 
248Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 18:45
Paleo-con insistance on holding to the FF's advice to avoid foreign entanglements becomes harder and harder the more people there are who are willing and able to hop on a plane and six hours later commit terrorism.

key word - avoid

Bush's idealistic speech suggests that these foreign entanglements will be actively pursued, and since he hasn't specified potential targets, it is delusional. (Unless we are to bypass Bush and listen to co-CIC who was sabre rattling about Iran last week.)
As Jon Stewart comically pointed out and MITH relayed in the Inaugural Events thread:

Offer not valid in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan and China(I'm suprised MITH didn't throw in Equatorial Guniea since he did some excellent research on Obiang's Saddamisms).

But this thread is the Direction of the Democratic Party. One of the few things Kerry made sense about during the election was the need to fix some of our damaged European relations and broaden our coalition in the War on Terror, thereby reducing the potential for people to hop on a plane and six hours later commit terrorism. The right wing talking heads mercilessly berated Kerry as a French apologist and a lackey of the UN. His off-handed "world test" remark was pounced upon as a neon example that Kerry would be unwilling and wishy washy about keeping America safe, whereas with Bush there was no doubt. Since maybe the number 1 issue in the election was "who do you trust to keep America safe," it was a defining moment and a defining issue in the campaign.
At issue is how to stop those who are willing to hop on a plane and six hours later commit terrorism.
Are the French more likely or less likely to assist in this effort when our President's party refers to them as cowards and surrender monkeys?
Are the Russians more likely or less likely to assist us in this effort when our state department chides them over the Chechen issue?
We don't like Chavez buddying up to Castro, then wonder why he takes his business to China after the CIA bungles a coup to oust him.

The direction the Democrats need to take is to point out that the United States shining star is dimming in the rest of the world. Steyn further muses:
There's no shame in acknowledging, as Condi Rice did last week, that previous policy -- Republican and Democrat -- toward the Middle East is wrong.

Uh, yes there is, if the president puffs out his chest and announces to the world that you can expect more of this wrong policy.
 
249Tree
      ID: 0050319
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 20:19
Where's Tree when you need him?

Oh, I forgot, he only posts stories about Republicans.


or maybe i was busy at work, a$$hole.

quite frankly, as much as i think what the tire-slashers did was disgusting, it pales in comparison to all the soldiers and civilians GW has sent to their deaths.

 
250Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 20:27
MC

You found a use for Tree?
 
251sarge33rd
      ID: 440332322
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 20:58
re 246; CCP...arent you growing weary of attacking my posts and being shown to be wrong?

When I ran my Ins Agency in the mid 80's, I paid above scale for my secretary, I paid above scale commissions plus a base for my agents, I contributed to 401k for my employees, I provided fully funded group health/life and disability income ins, I contributed auto allowance for my agents and I was very deliberate about ensuring that NOBODY who worked for me, qualified for food stamps, low cost meals at school etc etc etc. In other words, I paid and I paid VERY well. My agents had quotas to meet or they didnt work for me for very long, but I provided paid training and offered ride-alongs if requested. At the peak, I had 3 administrative secretaries and 33 agents working for me. It all went away when Iowa suffered consecutive years of droughts and our agency client base went BK. Like many other ag related small businesses, we went with them. (Under diversified was the "lesson learned" from that experience.)

As for charitable donations, all through my military career, 5% of my monthly gross went to the Soldier and Sailors Relief Fund. (Cant recall exactly what the title of the fund was/is, but its there so that if a soldier has a family crisis and needs to fly back to the states and simply cannot afford to, tickets get bought. If a home burns, clothes are bought, food is obtained etc etc etc. TB being currently in the Army yet, may be able to name the fund. Apologies for forgetting the title, but it has been about 10 years since I quit wearing the uiform.) Post military, I have contributed thousands to Muscular Dystrophy, I have paid the property taxes for single moms who were about to lose their homes, I have paid off car loans for a few people who were about to suffer repo through no fault of their own. Another 3% went to the USO and another 2% has gone to the Cerebral Palsy Foundation. (The day before I turned 18, the brakes on my car went out and I ran a stop sign. I was broadsided by a family in a car and in the backseat of that car was an 11 yr old girl who suffered from cerebral palsy and had just learned to walk. Her legs were both broken in the accident and she was set back considerably in the realm of physical therapy.) All through high school, I worked at the local TV station over the J Lewis telethon, answering phones and such. Always pulled the full 24 hr run. Over the past 20 years, every time I have "extended a helping hand", my price tag has been the same....offer a hand to no less than 3 people and request the same "repayment" of them. No need to "repay" what I provided. Take it, recover and then remember.

Am I a saint? lmao Hardly. But push come to shove, I'll help anybody, anytime that I have what they need.

So CCP, to summarize, I HAVE put my money where my mouth is. You however, would first have to remove your foot from your mouth to put your money where your mouth is.
 
252Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 23:00
You are a rare liberal Sarge. I believe most liberals see big government as the only solution because they have zero expectation in the willing altruism of others and think you need to force altruism with the barrel of a gun. In most cases I think they are projecting their own godless selfishness in that assessment of human nature.
 
253sarge33rd
      ID: 440332322
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 23:25
and from my experience/observations Baldwin, most Republican business owners are only too happy to underpay and overwork their employees. Failing entirely, to see what I have always referred to as the "codependent parasitic" relationship between employer-employee.

The employee relies upon the employer to provide a safe, stable and hopefully rewarding working environment. The employer counts upon the employee to not only do their assigned job, but to do it to a certain level of competence. The employee then rides the employers back all the way to the grocery store while the employer rides the employees back to the bank.

That in a nutshell, is how I define that relationship. GOOD companies, run by truly SMART people, WILL overpay from their industry norm. This way they are enabled to select the "creme de la creme" as their staff. This SHOULD result in, greater efficiency and thus profitability.(This is a reality which a few international firms have fully realized. Look at a Top 10 companies to work for list and you'll probably see them.)

Those organizations however, are in the vast, VAST minority of hiring authorities. The majority, are run by small minded, selfcentered greedy little bastards who want only to convince you of their personal importance, power and superiority. Most small businessmen, commit rampant and deliberate tax fraud. Writing off miles they drove their car for personal business as a "business expense". Buying a car and putting it in the company name, when the vehicle never ever in its life, sees company property. Having the company pay the taxes on the home in which the owners of the business live, but not declaring that payment as a taxable compensation AND not listing the property as a business assett when doing the business year end taxes. Making purchases for personal collections (gun collections for ex) using business checks and then deducting those purchases as expenses. Paying overnight salespeople $10/night for meals, and then deducting $35/day for each salesman because IRS rules allow a $35 deduction w/o proof of payment. The list is virtually endless Baldwin. Those very same businessmen who lament " those damn tax and spend democrats" commit tax fraud on a daily basis and honestly feel ENTITLED to do so! (These are the same people who pay minimum wage after a person has been there for 5 years and if asked for a raise will tell you that you got one. Every time the damn govt raises min wage, you get a raise. Then they drive home in the 5th new car they have purchased since hiring you 5 years ago while you are still driving the same car which is now 15 yrs old because you cant afford the payment for anything else.)

No Baldwin...I feel no pity for those crooks. None at all. And truth be told, more small businessmen fit into that category, than dont.

 
254sarge33rd
      ID: 440332322
      Mon, Jan 24, 2005, 23:44
Here Baldwin is in a nutshell, the difference in how I looked at things and how most Republicans look at them;

In my best earnings year, I paid a tad over $42k in state/fed income taxes combined. I knew of MANY a household where the husband + wife's income didnt equal that sum. Did I lament how much I "had to pay in taxes"? Hell no! I remember clearly thinking, "Damn...lol what a year I had!"
 
255Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Tue, Jan 25, 2005, 06:27
The trick is in getting the company to the point where it can afford to pay extra. There is the rub. Many have gone into business with such ideals. Few have survived the battle and succeeded with idealism intact. I applaud anyone who pulls it off.

My ex-best friend went into business as a naif bragging he was going to pay his employees nearly as much as he paid himself. He really believed it too. When the going got tuff he shoved a knife in my back so far it was scraping buildings in Cleveland.
 
256sarge33rd
      ID: 440332322
      Tue, Jan 25, 2005, 08:06
The trick is in getting the company to the point where it can afford to pay extra.


WRONG! The trick, is to realize that you HAVE to do that first, if you're ever going to.

Read a book called, "Good to Great" by Jim Collins.

Good to Great

I read this recently, and was literally amazed to find that these were many of the same "theorems" I had tried to apply back in the 80's. I unfortunately, was grossly undreca[italized and ran into those 2 drought years 1 year before I may have had the "depth" to sustain through and past them. Such is life when roll the dice at the high stakes table. *shrug*
 
257sarge33rd
      ID: 440332322
      Tue, Jan 25, 2005, 08:58
undreca[italized

now you know exactly WHY I paid my secretary so well! lol

undercapitalized....sheesh
 
258Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Tue, Jan 25, 2005, 12:40
I'm familiar with the book but haven't had time to read it. He gives examples of undercapitalized regular joe schmoes who started out paying the higest industry wages and made it thru the first two years? I'll be gobsmacked if that's a reliable formula.
 
259Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Tue, Jan 25, 2005, 18:46
Hell hath no fury like a VN vet stabbed in the back I guess.
Jerome Corsi, co-author of the Swiftboat veterans' book that challenged Sen. John Kerry's Vietnam record, plans to vie for the former presidential candidate's Senate seat in 2008.
 
260Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Tue, Jan 25, 2005, 19:02
Hopefully this won't be representative of the new direction of the Democrats. The Crystalnacht option should be right out.
 
261Tree
      ID: 0050319
      Tue, Jan 25, 2005, 20:23
Baldwin, it's your politics that run closer to the nazis than those pro-choice folks....
 
262sarge33rd
      ID: 440332322
      Tue, Jan 25, 2005, 22:33
Baldwin, the book does not deal with startup companies. It involves an empirical study of "good" companies who went on to become "great" companies. A follow-up study in ways, from an earlier work Collins had done. One of the example companies in the case studies, is Wells Fargo Bank. When compared to BoA, Wells was a small time "wanna be" banking interest. Collins goes into detail, using empirical data to backup his conclusions, about the transition from "goodness" to "greatness". A truly interesting read and one I posted about on this forum when I first concluded my reading of the book.

My theory on compensation is that it is called "compensation" for a reason. If the employer expects above average performance levels, then that employer had better provide above average compensation. At the same time, if the employee anticipates above average compensation, they had better provide above average performance. For an employer to pay average or below while at the same time demanding superior levels of production, they had better be prepared to have most of the staff walk out one day and see alot of the clientele go away with them.

If average levels of performance are satisfactory, then be prepared to make excruciatingly slow progress in terms of market share. Afterall, it means your competitors have the above average personnel, while your staff is merely "competent" and lacking in true ambition. THAT my friend, is no way to launch a company.

btw, I never said you had to pay the highest industry wages. Just above average. Combine that with respectable treatment and some famly time....and you'll see wondrous things happen in terms of reliability, productivity, moral, turn etc. Use a"deferred" comp plan, where after 2 yrs on the job, a bonus of $7500 is pd and is continued every other year thereafter. It'll cost 4 times that to hire 1 low-level manager via headhunter, and for that same money you can bonus an existing manager to keep him/her on the job for 8 years! Think of the productivity gain in NOT having to spend time training up someone new and then look at the productivity of a motivated and loyal worker with 8 yrs on the job. All for a piddly $310/m really. What it ultimately requires, is an acknowledgement of what good, talented and capable people are REALLY worth to a company. Then a bit of creativity to find ways to recognize that value in methods which entice an individual to remain a good, talented and capable employee.
 
263Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Tue, Jan 25, 2005, 23:05
Yes, that was my original impression of the book. I just think that while that is a great end point to be reaching for, it almost certainly can't be a start-up model for an [undercapitalized] average entreprenuer. If you can secure great backers with deep pockets and that share your vision, or you have deep pockets then sure you could skip ahead to the end state you describe and that I applaud in principle.
 
264Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Wed, Jan 26, 2005, 12:44
We all know Hillary is the future direction of the Democrat party so we should pay special attention given the title of this thread.
Sen. Clinton Tells Abortion Rally: 'I'm Pro-Chife'
by Scott Ott

(2005-01-25) -- In another apparent attempt to position herself as a centrist candidate for the White House in 2008, Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, yesterday told 1,000 abortion supporters that she's neither pro-life nor pro-choice.

"I'm Pro-Chife," she announced to the stunned crowd. "Being pro-chife means you support a woman's right to end the life of a fetus that will never exist because the government will prevent the pregnancy."

Mrs. Clinton said the federal government should announce a policy of "zero tolerance" for unwanted pregnancies, and could begin to achieve the goal through a combination of condom distribution and government promotion of homosexuality in the public schools.

"And while critics will note that the government already does that, I believe that these are just intermediate measures," she said. "Ultimately, abortion is caused by pregnancy, which is a manufacturing activity carried on by small enterprises with no government regulation. During the 109th Congress, we plan to expand the mandate of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) and the IRS to regulate and tax the production of human embryos. We have found that the best way to control any creative activity is with government oversight and taxes."

Mrs. Clinton said she looks forward to the day when the burden of filing OSHA and IRS paperwork makes pregnancy "safe, legal, expensive and rare." - Scrappleface

 
265sarge33rd
      ID: 440332322
      Wed, Jan 26, 2005, 23:16
*yawn*
 
267Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Fri, Jan 28, 2005, 00:29
This Democrat sees nothing but Democrats throwing bad advice after bad advice. Hillary seems to be campaigning at least in such a way as to prove this author wrong. [Not that Hillary isn't operationally to the left of Howard Dean]

The rest of party hasn't got the memo yet.
 
268Boldwin
      ID: 1411237
      Thu, Feb 24, 2005, 18:55
If you are so smart how come you haven't learned a thing from history?
However, the tactical and strategic blunders of the Democratic Party over the last few years have been so spectacular that it may be time to reconsider the intellectual wattage of the respective parties.

What is most startling to observe these days is that the Democrats do not seem able, or willing, to learn from their most obvious mistakes. The most recent example of this blindness is the hysteria with which they've attacked an obscure Republican National Committee mailing about the new Democratic Senate Minority Leader, Reid All About It: Who is Harry Reid? [6], which makes the seemingly innocuous charge that Mr. Reid is "Determined to Obstruct President Bush's Agenda." A party with some sense of humor about itself would have laughed off the charge that the opposition was opposing. A party with some self-confidence would have seized on the piece as an opportunity for free publicity and said, "Dang right, he's going to obstruct the destruction of Social Security and the appointment of extremist judges!" Instead, the Democrats reacted with squeals of outrage. In so doing they turned it into a free publicity windfall for the Republicans and helped to establish a meme that the GOP will be able to exploit every time Senator Reid does work for Democratic interests instead of rolling over for the President.

Senator Kerry and company are hardly the first folks ever to run an inept political operation, but should not his fellow Democrats have learned something from the bitter experience? In particular, mightn't they have noticed that their nemesis, George W. Bush, has succeeded in successive national campaigns by blithely ignoring rumors about everything from shady business dealings to preferential military treatment to cocaine use to secret abortions? Even the easier access to the mainstream media that activists of the Left enjoy has not enabled them to get such better-publicized stories to stick, in no small part because the President and his staff generally refuse to dignify these attacks with rebuttals. There's a pretty simple dynamic involved here: when the President, or any leader, says something it is automatically newsworthy and will get coverage, but when his many critics speak they join a babble that may or may not be heard. The last thing you want to do is pluck a voice from that whirlwind and hand over your own megaphone. But, once again, in the Harry Reid kerfuffle, we see Democrats doing just that. They've done the Republicans' heavy-lifting for them and elevated the notion of Mr. Reid as an obstructionist to center stage.

Recall that just days after the Democratic Convention in Boston, which looked like lost footage from Apocalypse Now and relied almost completely on portraying their nominee's resume as beginning and ending in Vietnam, the Kerry campaign went on the attack against the Swift Vets [7] and their accusations that his war record was inflated. This turned a marginal group with comparatively little money -- who had only been able to advertise in very limited forums and had been so ignored by the mainstream media that the conservative partisan press was complaining about the "cover-up" [8] -- into major players in the political process.

Even if the Left was never as reticent, we should be reluctant to label a whole political party "stupid." But the only other description that seems to fit this behavior pattern is insanity: doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result. So, take your pick, stupidity or insanity?

 
269Boldwin
      ID: 1411237
      Sat, Feb 26, 2005, 07:17
Dean Throws 'Blue Meat' to Red State Voters
by Scott Ott


(2005-02-25) -- Democrat National Committee Chairman Howard Dean today launched a tour of states that President George Bush won in November, with planned stops at what he called the "red-state trinity" -- churches, gun shops and Wal-Mart stores.

"The president has done a good job of throwing red meat to conservatives," said Mr. Dean during the first stop on his 'Blue Meat for Red States' tour. "I'm here to show that Democrats can speak this language too."

Mr. Dean first stopped at a gun shop, telling the proprietor, "I need to get me a shootin' iron."

Holding his purchase in the air, he said he was shocked that "an out-of-stater could walk into a gun shop and -- with no background check or waiting period -- buy the most powerful paintball weapon in the place."

He told a baptist church group that his favorite character in the Bible is "Bob the Tomato," but later revised his remarks to acknowledge that the Veggie Tales video series is "not usually included in the canon of Scripture."

The tour was delayed for about an hour in Topeka, KS, as Mr. Dean stood at a Wal-Mart "concierge desk" waiting for the arrival of his "personal shopper." - Scrappleface

 
270Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Wed, Mar 02, 2005, 20:44
Discover The Network

Wow is this site useful!

 
271Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Mar 02, 2005, 21:52
$23 million dollars

Look, kids! Its a redundant redundancy!
 
272Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Thu, Mar 10, 2005, 04:34
Is liberalism dead? Not around here aparently but US News and World Report asks the question anyway and makes quite a strong case.
 
273Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Fri, Mar 11, 2005, 23:34
Dawning self-knowlege.
 
274Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sat, Mar 12, 2005, 00:34
I love Lillian Rubin. An excellent writer. I didn't know she wrote that piece--thanks for linking to it, B.
 
275Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 21, 2005, 06:47
All the more interesting in light of the Schiavo vote.

One plus one had better not equal two. They really do want to expand that braindead category, don't they. And the inconvenient human category.
 
276Wilmer McLean
      ID: 442131919
      Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 02:57
From the March 30, 2005 New York Times Op-Ed:

---------------------------------------------
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
A Party Inverted
By BILL BRADLEY

Published: March 30, 2005

Five months after the presidential election Democrats are still pointing fingers at one another and trying to figure out why Republicans won. Was the problem the party's position on social issues or taxes or defense or what? Were there tactical errors made in the conduct of the campaign? Were the right advisers heard? Was the candidate flawed?

Before deciding what Democrats should do now, it's important to see what Republicans have done right over many years. When the Goldwater Republicans lost in 1964, they didn't try to become Democrats. They tried to figure out how to make their own ideas more appealing to the voters. As part of this effort, they turned to Lewis Powell, then a corporate lawyer and soon to become a member of the United States Supreme Court. In 1971 he wrote a landmark memo for the United States Chamber of Commerce in which he advocated a sweeping, coordinated and long-term effort to spread conservative ideas on college campuses, in academic journals and in the news media.

To further the party's ideological and political goals, Republicans in the 1970's and 1980's built a comprehensive structure based on Powell's blueprint. Visualize that structure as a pyramid.

You've probably heard some of this before, but let me run through it again. Big individual donors and large foundations - the Scaife family and Olin foundations, for instance - form the base of the pyramid. They finance conservative research centers like the Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute and the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, entities that make up the second level of the pyramid.

The ideas these organizations develop are then pushed up to the third level of the pyramid - the political level. There, strategists like Karl Rove or Ralph Reed or Ken Mehlman take these new ideas and, through polling, focus groups and careful attention to Democratic attacks, convert them into language that will appeal to the broadest electorate. That language is sometimes in the form of an assault on Democrats and at other times in the form of advocacy for a new policy position. The development process can take years. And then there's the fourth level of the pyramid: the partisan news media. Conservative commentators and networks spread these finely honed ideas.

At the very top of the pyramid you'll find the president. Because the pyramid is stable, all you have to do is put a different top on it and it works fine.

It is not quite the "right wing conspiracy" that Hillary Clinton described, but it is an impressive organization built consciously, carefully and single-mindedly. The Ann Coulters and Grover Norquists don't want to be candidates for anything or cabinet officers for anyone. They know their roles and execute them because they're paid well and believe, I think, in what they're saying. True, there's lots of money involved, but the money makes a difference because it goes toward reinforcing a structure that is already stable.

To understand how the Democratic Party works, invert the pyramid. Imagine a pyramid balancing precariously on its point, which is the presidential candidate.

Democrats who run for president have to build their own pyramids all by themselves. There is no coherent, larger structure that they can rely on. Unlike Republicans, they don't simply have to assemble a campaign apparatus - they have to formulate ideas and a vision, too. Many Democratic fundraisers join a campaign only after assessing how well it has done in assembling its pyramid of political, media and idea people.

There is no clearly identifiable funding base for Democratic policy organizations, and in the frantic campaign rush there is no time for patient, long-term development of new ideas or of new ways to sell old ideas. Campaigns don't start thinking about a Democratic brand until halfway through the election year, by which time winning the daily news cycle takes precedence over building a consistent message. The closest that Democrats get to a brand is a catchy slogan.

Democrats choose this approach, I believe, because we are still hypnotized by Jack Kennedy, and the promise of a charismatic leader who can change America by the strength and style of his personality. The trouble is that every four years the party splits and rallies around several different individuals at once. Opponents in the primaries then exaggerate their differences and leave the public confused about what Democrats believe.

In such a system tactics trump strategy. Candidates don't risk talking about big ideas because the ideas have never been sufficiently tested. Instead they usually wind up arguing about minor issues and express few deep convictions. In the worst case, they embrace "Republican lite" platforms - never realizing that in doing so they're allowing the Republicans to define the terms of the debate.

A party based on charisma has no long-term impact. Think of our last charismatic leader, Bill Clinton. He was president for eight years. He was the first Democrat to be re-elected since Franklin Roosevelt. He was smart, skilled and possessed great energy. But what happened? At the end of his tenure in the most powerful office in the world, there were fewer Democratic governors, fewer Democratic senators, members of Congress and state legislators and a national party that was deep in debt. The president did well. The party did not. Charisma didn't translate into structure.

If Democrats are serious about preparing for the next election or the next election after that, some influential Democrats will have to resist entrusting their dreams to individual candidates and instead make a commitment to build a stable pyramid from the base up. It will take at least a decade's commitment, and it won't come cheap. But there really is no other choice.

---------------------------------------------
 
277Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Thu, Apr 07, 2005, 03:33
Flatter Karl Rove.
 
278Boldwin
      ID: 8347115
      Thu, Apr 14, 2005, 06:38
A PIE ? Is that all you've got?Liberals enjoy claiming that they are intellectuals, thrilled to engage in a battle of wits. This, they believe, distinguishes them from conservatives, who are religious fanatics who react with impotent rage to opposing ideas.A Pie?....that's all you got?
 
279Tree
      ID: 76471215
      Thu, Apr 21, 2005, 15:43
Economic Worries Aren't Resonating on Hill
 
280sarge33rd
      ID: 43372016
      Fri, Apr 22, 2005, 17:29
The charges against Tom DeLay embody everything voters hate about Washington. Can the Dems turn it to their advantage?

The last paragraph from the piece:

But Democrats can’t pass anything in the House, and they have trouble getting media attention. What they need is a compelling personality to carry the message. The ultimate irony is that it could be Gingrich. Who better to run for president against the discredited Republican establishment?

What a concept. Newt returning to Washington, as a Dem, to run against the Republicans. :) Cant help but smile at the mere suggestion of such an event coming to pass.


 
281Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Fri, Apr 22, 2005, 18:10
If I were younger, I'd be manning the barricades. Neither party has an agenda that focuses on helping people. Both are held hostage to the monied interests that got them elected in the first place.

No one that should be elected president can be. Private lives are no longer private and mistakes made and learned from are no longer permissible in the sense that they usually bar election to anything important.

What we need is compassion. What we increasingly get is zero tolerance. This is a very different country than I hoped it would be.

Don
 
282sarge33rd
      ID: 493271611
      Fri, Apr 22, 2005, 18:17
Both are held hostage to the monied interests that got them elected in the first place.

I've been saying the samething don, since the VA Sen (cant recall which..Warner maybe?) set a campaign spending record, going through some 2.4 mill to win election to a job that pd something on the order of 80k annually.

In many a discussion with my pop (a died in the wool Rep....I still love though lol), I've finally ended what would inevitably turn into an argument by stating the ONLY material difference between a Dem Politician and a Rep Politician, is the composition of the group they lie to.
 
283CJ
      ID: 403531418
      Fri, Apr 22, 2005, 21:15
Dems need a leader is what I see. Once they have that back then they will be alright and we will continue to be divided as a country. But I am still thankful to God that Bush has been our President through these tough past few years.
 
284Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 059856912
      Fri, Apr 29, 2005, 11:40
Article speaks for itself Dem's treat voters like children
 
285Toral
      ID: 14263120
      Fri, Apr 29, 2005, 14:49
Thanx, Rev!

Nice article by Professor Gelernter.

DAVID GELERNTER, David Gelernter is professor of computer science at Yale University and a senior fellow in Jewish thought at the Shalem Center, Jerusalem.

Y'all might not remember that Prof. Gelertner was targeted by the Unabomber, and had half of one hand blown off.

After that, he did some serious thinking...,and became a conservative.

Toral
 
286Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Fri, Apr 29, 2005, 16:57
Having been mugged, he joined the reality based community.
 
287Perm Dude
      ID: 17321143
      Fri, Apr 29, 2005, 16:59
Or, maybe he thought it was time to get some for himself. Selfish, unruly mobs looking out only for themselves tend to not only be self-perpetuating but infectious.

After the fever breaks we'll all need to sit down and figure out how to be a society working together again.
 
288Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sat, May 07, 2005, 19:04
At least you still have your fundraisers. Hillary is riding a well oiled machine.
Audiotapes recorded by Kennedy in-law Raymond Reggie while cooperating with an FBI probe into an August 2000 gala fund-raiser for Hillary Clinton could be devastating for the Democratic Party, according to Louisiana's Times Picayune, which has obtained transcripts of the Reggie tapes.

The paper reports that a Sept. 4, 2002 tape of Reggie talking to Hillary Clinton's 2000 Senate race finance chairman David Rosen "captures a conversation rife with gossip about the seamy side of political life, including the sex, drugs and prostitutes enjoyed by big-name Democratic stalwarts."

Rosen is set to go on trial Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles on charges that he filed false reports with the Federal Election Commission, reports that dramatically understated the costs of the 2000 event.
Beyond making incriminating statements on the September 2002 recording, Rosen told Reggie about an episode where prostitutes were allegedly provided to Clinton allies by a big-money donor.

According to the Times Picayune:

"The salaciousness reaches its pinnacle with Rosen's rambling anecdote about a fat cat Clinton donor who said after a night of partying that he sent prostitutes to the hotel rooms of two top Clinton loyalists."

Quoting Rosen directly, the paper reports:

"So the next day, [one of the loyalists] calls [the donor] from the golf course with [President] Clinton. Clinton gets on the phone, he goes, I just wanna tell you something. ... The day I'm outta office, I'm going out with you."
Ride'em cowgirl...
The paper offers no indication that Rosen made any incriminating statements about Hillary Clinton. So far, there is no evidence Hillary Clinton was aware of the fund-raising costs – or that they exceeded in-kind contribution limits.

Rosen did, however, offer harsh comments about Bill Clinton, indicating that he didn't like the then-president's constant meddling in Hillary's Senate campaign in 2000.

An exasperated Rosen, ticked off, said Clinton called him once a week. Rosen told Reggie he wanted to tell him, "Go screw yourself, Mr. President."

Both Reggie and Rosen had unpleasanant comments about Al Gore.


Reggie detailed Al Gore's visit to New Orleans for the 2002 Super Bowl – without the trappings of office.


"I mean, I felt bad," said Reggie, who said he escorted Gore around town. "Here you are, the former VP, and the guy's like flying in a little, you know, nothing plane. And he's gonna catch a Yellow Cab. I'm like, no."

Rosen was miffed that Gore failed to notice him at a political event.

"I won't cross the street for that guy," he said. "I was willing to get talked back into another round with his a$$. And I went to an event, and he was there. And I'm with him one-on-one a hundred times. At least. And he thought I was the valet parker."
Rosen should look on the bright side. Plenty of Clinton fundraisers didn't survive the experience.

See #20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 34, those are just the semi-legitimate fundraisers, every one of those drug and corruption deaths were really related to campaign fundraising as well.
 
289Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Mon, May 23, 2005, 20:11
The direction would appear to be denial.

Doomed to repeat it.
 
290myboyjack
      ID: 234581910
      Fri, Jun 10, 2005, 09:28
Going back to the initial post in this thread from 2+ years ago...

Should've gone with Ford

He gets it:

June 9, 2005
Imus: "On another note here, speaking of the Democratic Party, which you are a member of, how's Howard Dean working for you?"

Rep. Harold Ford Jr.: "(Laughing) I won't have him down so many times in Tennessee on the campaign trail with me. He has made some comments as of late that really speak to a lack of understanding I think, of the country, a lack of understanding of faith and values. I'm a Democrat and I'm a God fearing one. I grew up in church. Christianity is not reserved for white males. I think perhaps Governor Dean sometimes gets a little excited at the mouth, and says things that are simply not true. It may reach a point where if he can't find a way to kind of control some of his comments, and temper his comments, it may get to the point where the party may need to look elsewhere for leadership, because he does not speak for me, and I know he does not speak for a majority of Democrats and I dare say Republicans in my home state. I know that other, even Senator Biden and others, have made some stronger comments about him. I look forward to having a chance to sit with him here in the next day or so. I think he's going to be here in Capitol Hill a little later today to meet with us. I want to ask him directly. Can he contain himself in a lot of ways, and what is his thought process in a lot of these issues because it is not representative of where the party is."
 
291Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sat, Jun 18, 2005, 20:08
Senate Dems Lead U.S. Pullout from U.N.
by Scott Ott

(2005-06-17) -- Senate Democrats, despite their minority status, have begun to achieve something which Republicans have only dreamed of -- a U.S. withdrawal from the United Nations.

Thanks to a Democrat filibuster on John Bolton's nomination as U.S. Ambassador to the U.N., the United States has effectively disengaged from the global peacemaking body, leaving Republican strategists scrambling to reclaim ownership of the 'U.S.-out-of-U.N.' movement.

"While Acting Ambassador Anne Patterson keeps the lights on and the coffee warm, the United States has essentially abandoned the mission," according to an unnamed Democrat Senate aide.

It's all part of a strategic 'move to the center' in preparation for the 2006 and 2008 election cycles.

"Democrats are co-opting key Republican issues so they can claim the victory," the anonymous source said. "When our presidential nominee gives her acceptance speech she'll proudly say, 'Vote for the party that has an exit strategy'." - Scrappleface

 
292Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sat, Jul 02, 2005, 08:33
The Truth,

Yea, Bush's low approval ratings sure gave John "Reporting for Duty" Kerry a leg up in the last Presidential election, didn't they?

Until us Democrats get rid of the Collectivist Doofii (I'm assuming that is the plural of doofus) who thought they could fool anybody with a clunker like Kerry we're screwed. We need to sit down and seriously decide what we stand for, and it better be better than collectivist daydreams and apologizing to Salafists for the mud huts they live in. - Dem commenter on the Roger L Simon blog.
 
293Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 11314719
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 07:04
Apparently Hillary Clinton boldly says the direction of the Democratic Party does not include anyone over 18 that plays videogames...

Clinton seeks video game sex scene probe

""We should all be deeply disturbed that a game which now permits the simulation of lewd sexual acts in an interactive format with highly realistic graphics has fallen into the hands of young people across the country," Clinton wrote in a letter to the head of the Federal Trade Commission."

Perhaps it is the same "vast right wing conspiracy" that instigated the "simulation of lewd sexual acts in an interactive format" that setup your husband while he was in office?

Why any adult between 18-30 that plays videogames would vote for this person is beyond me.

Please someone tell the uninformed senator from New York that the game already has a Mature rating. Kinda like complaining that there's violence in an R rated movie.
 
294Tree
      ID: 22629179
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 10:31
Why any adult between 18-30 that plays videogames would vote for this person is beyond me.

why an adult would care, because you can still access a game with an AO rating, is beyond me.

why shouldn't video games be rated like films?
 
295Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 11:28
CCP just wants to bitch about and lob cheap shots at a democrat. This is very easy to see because of how he structures his post with the spin first:

direction of the Democratic Party does not include anyone over 18 that plays videogames

That simply doesn't mean anything. She isn't calling for the game to be banned. She wants tougher penalties for retailers who sell the game to minors (you know, people under 18) and to look into giving the game a stricter rating (again, one that doesn't affect people over 18).

CCP, seriously, is your life this pathetic that you have nothing better to do on a summer Sunday morning than to begin a discussion on a public forum that starts with a blatent and really pretty stupid lie?

And that's leaving out the fact that Hillary's absolutely right to raise this issue. The problem with the game (as I'm sure CCP would realize very quickly if it was a republican who said this and got called on it by a stupid liberal) is that parents are aware that this game, which is marketed to kids, includes some extreme, graphicly violent images. But parents are not at all informed that with a quick download, the game becomes porn. For most parents - especially conservatives, by the way - I believe there's a considerable leap from Rambo or American Psycho to the XXX forum.

I'm not a parent and I've always had trouble understanding why society is so much more readily accepting images of graphic violence than we are sex in our mainstream entertainment, but the sentiment appears quite standard to me, especially among conservative parents.

Too bad they so frequently fail to display the minimum intellectual honesty required to praise a lawmaker from across the aisle when she takes a stand for one of their own pet issues.

CCP, I'm pretty sure that you and I have discussed sex and violence in entertainment and censorship issues before. If I remember correctly you take something of a liberal stand in that area and your knee-jerk reaction to posters who criticized Republican politicians who overstep their bounds on these issues is to cry that that there are plenty of Democrats who are in favor of keeping our entertainment kid and parent friendly. That's fine, but if you're ever going to be honest with yourself on the topic, you're going to have to accept the fact that it is your political bretheren who are far more likely to trample personal rights on these issues (something I believe you have vehemently denied here in the past).

Hillary isn't denying any adults of anything. You have every right to feel that it is unnecessary or a waste of time for her to try help parents have greater control over whether their kids are able to obtain porn in this medium, but you are straight-up lying when you imply that her proposals have any affect on whether adults will be able to purchase this material for themselves.

Frankly, from my perspective she takes a perfect moderate approach to the issue. I'm quite sure that most lawmakers who would criticize her for not taking her proposals to he extreme that you dishonestly imply she takes them will have a letter 'R' following their name when you read about it in the paper.
 
296Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 11314719
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 11:49
MITH:

"CCP just wants to bitch about and lob cheap shots at a democrat. This is very easy to see because of how he structures his post with the spin first:"

Not true. The title of the thread is, "The direction of the Democratic Party". Aren't liberals anti-censorship and pro freedom of expression? Isn't that the whole point of the ACLU? Isn't this exactly what is going on with the CONTENT of a videogame. Not to be dramatic, but what's next, book burning?

I always took it to be that younger people tend to vote more liberal and Democratic. Videogames are a huge part of young adult and mid-20 something culture. If Hillary wants to go to war with the videogame industry, then that directly relates to the direction of the Democratic Party.

From my link...

"Players who download a modification, known as "hot coffee," from the Internet can make a male character engage in various sex acts with a virtual "girlfriend." Sex is suggested in the official version of the game, but does not happen on screen.

The game's manufacturer, a subsidiary of Take-Two Interactive Software Inc. called Rockstar Games, has said hackers are responsible for the modification."

This is not something Rockstar is responsible for. Hackers do what hackers do. Furthermore, this underlines a problem that frequently occurs with older adults.

They do not "understand" the videogame thing. Just like how their parents didn't "get it" with Elvis and The Beattles, these people don't get it with videogames. You'd think they'd have the advantage of going thru this before with their parents.

"CCP, seriously, is your life this pathetic that you have nothing better to do on a summer Sunday morning than to begin a discussion on a public forum that starts with a blatent and really pretty stupid lie?"

No it's not actually. I did post this before cleaning my garage, riding my motorcycle and chasing my dogs with a garden hose though. Call it what you want, it's a free country. No BS, I seriously did that stuff this morning.

"And that's leaving out the fact that Hillary's absolutely right to raise this issue."

WRONG!

She's arguing about the HACKED content of a game. What control does Rockstar have over this? Absolutely none. So long as they practice sound ethics in attempting to make their software somewhat hacker free, they've fulfilled their obligation for the game.

"The problem with the game (as I'm sure CCP would realize very quickly if it was a republican who said this and got called on it by a stupid liberal) is that parents are aware that this game, which is marketed to kids, includes some extreme, graphicly violent images. But parents are not at all informed that with a quick download, the game becomes porn."

Wrong again. Parents are dopes. It's easier to let Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, and Comcast Cable entertain one's children than to actually give a damn and watch what they're doing. Read an article on videogames, something, anything. Does one's kid read Electronic Gaming Monthly? Take it to the crapper with you and read it for ten minutes so you know what junior's looking at. Take an interest in your kid. Give a damn.

Where does ten year old John or Jane get the $50 to buy a videogame? Who drives them to the store? Who stands in the checkout line with them?

"For most parents - especially conservatives, by the way - I believe there's a considerable leap from Rambo or American Psycho to the XXX forum."

Couldn't agree more. We are discussing a HACKED game wherein the company that manufactured the original game is being attacked by the Witch Of Whitewater because she doesn't understand WTF she is talking about. Either that, or she's talking to get headlines for the mid-terms and/or 2008.

An attack on the creative freedom of entertainment is an attack on the very thing that makes us American and free.

You have every right to prop up a "Bush: Terrorist #1" sign in your yard. I have every right to have a "I Love Gitmo" bumper sticker placed above where I park my car in my garage.

Yes, it's a hack that you must download and hacking (in terms of criminal activity) is bad. It's freedom of improvisation and modification and improving upon an original concept that makes us great.

Hillary is bastardizing that concept because she's babbling about something she doesn't understand.
 
297Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 12:42
If Hillary wants to go to war with the videogame industry,

I'm not surprised at all that you will spin callings for a more precise rating system, stricter penalties on retailers who break the law and an FCC investigation into the origin of the download as going to war with the gaming industry.

She's arguing about the HACKED content of a game.

Uh, no. Not entirely. Read your article again. The hacked content is only part of her issue.

What control does Rockstar have over this? Absolutely none.

First off, despite your spin, at no place in your link does Clinton criticize or blame Rockstar or the industry for the download. And as far as the Rockstar having nothing to do with the download, that might be true, at least thats what Rockstar says. And I'm sure that since it suits your hate-politics today you will be happy to take them at their word. However, the second-to-last paragraph from your link reads:

The Entertainment Software Rating Board last week launched a probe into whether the sexual minigame content was deliberately hidden in the game code and unlocked by the "hot coffee" modification, or if it was solely the result of the modification.

I'm sure your very smart but I'll wait for the results of their investigation.

Take an interest in your kid. Give a damn.

Where does ten year old John or Jane get the $50 to buy a videogame? Who drives them to the store? Who stands in the checkout line with them?


You apprently think you know this answer, too, but I tend to side with Hillary, who wants wants to try to find out for sure. Of course in your opinion, her requst that the FTC look into whether retailers are obeying the law is an attack on the gaming industry. Funny, I don't recall the crackdown several years ago on alcohol retailers who sell to minors being regarded as an attack on the beer and liquor industries.
 
298Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 13:05
And by the way, "Aren't liberals anti-censorship and pro freedom of expression? Isn't that the whole point of the ACLU?", is a telling question. Those sentiments are general positions held broadly by social liberals, but not as absolutes. Just as the majority of the fiscal conservatives believe that some degree of taxation is necessary, the vast majority of social liberals agree on the need to censor some expressions. You're either too stupid to know or too combative and/or intellectually dishonest to acknowledge that just like the right, the majority of the American left are moderates.
 
299Tree
      ID: 22629179
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 13:08
I'm not a parent and I've always had trouble understanding why society is so much more readily accepting images of graphic violence than we are sex in our mainstream entertainment, but the sentiment appears quite standard to me, especially among conservative parents.

eh, i'll take a stab at this, opening up a can of worms like nobody's business. 5 days away from this place, and a crowded Cancun airport filled with people fleeing that b*tch Emily gave me an itchy trigger finger.

i think the acceptance of violence, particularly by sweaty, shirtless, good-looking musclebound men waving HUGE guns around is an acceptance of the latent homosexuality we all have. by allowing this, it allows the conservatives who are homophobes to have their cake and eat it too.

sex, on the other hand, is a reflection of the overwrought puritanical nature of this country. walking around the beaches of Cancun, the number of topless women was astonishing, and while i'll admit that some were attractive to me (and many, many, were not), it wasn't about sex. they didn't have their tops off looking to get laid, they had their tops off because it was 95 degrees and they were at the beach. in the vast majority of the the U.S., you could not do that.
 
300Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 13:19
I don't believe Hillary has a genuine bone in her body regarding this issue but if Grand Theft Auto even without that mod doesn't bother you so much that you wouldn't let your kid buy/play it, then what would it take?
 
301Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 13:43
Depends on the age and maturity of your kid, don't you think, Baldwin? Maybe I'd see it differently if I were a parent but I might allow my well adjusted or socially desensitized teenager play a gratuitously violent video game or listen to hard core rap or watch an extremely violent film but still feel he or she isn't mature enough to be psychologically unaffected by similarly explicit pornography.

Like I said, I believe that for most people there's a leap from the most graphically violent images we can imagine on film to the most explicit porn. Again, I'm not sure why we see it that way (of course I don't believe Tree's theory is helpful) but that seems to be the case. As tree points out, society puts explict sex in a seperate and more restrictive category than graphic violence in rating our entertainment media. I don't see why video gaming should be any different.

Whatever you think of Hillary's motives or convictions, I believe it requires an extremist position, disingenuous combativeness or considerable ignorance to see anything that is very disagreeable here.
 
302soxzeitgeist
      ID: 23528248
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 13:54
I guess I'm mystified why ccp who is "Mr. Law and Order", regurgitating the personal responsibility and "if you can't do the time don't do the crime" mantras in one thread, is so bent out of shape over Hil's call for an investigation into a possible crime in another.

Could it be you're having another attack of the hypocritical-I-hate-anything-that-has-to-do-with-a-Clinton syndrome that seems to affect most conservatives?

I swear, if Hillary came up with a cure for cancer, all the neocon douchebags in the country would be picketing her office protesting and whining that she was unfair to malignant carcinomas.
 
303Tree
      ID: 22629179
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 14:08
I swear, if Hillary came up with a cure for cancer, all the neocon douchebags in the country would be picketing her office protesting and whining that she was unfair to malignant carcinomas.

actually, they'd be more concerned that her husband had an affair 10 years earlier.
 
304Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 14:45
Sox

My understanding is that the game involves raping and murdering prostitutes, cop-killing, etc. No my freng this is more dangerous than simple pornography. Beyond the pale at any age.
 
305Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 15:05
Baldwin

I think you mean to address me. The reality of the game allows you to murder anyone, not just your enemies, though I don't know that it is possible to commit rape. There are prostitutes and your character is encouraged to receive their services, but there is no graphic display of this, at least not without the download.

Your opinion regarding what is more explicit or sensitive surprises me a little, but I never claimed to be all that in touch with the moral right on these matters, I just offered my best guess. So maybe I'm off there, maybe not. But of course we don't know how 'simple' the porn add-ons are, either.

Anyway, I still don't believe it a poor idea or unnecessary to help parents better and more easily know about the content of kid-marketed entertainment out there.

CCP thinks he's being smart when he suggests that looking over a magazine during time spent in the bathroom will sufficiently educate non-video gaming parents on what titles to prevent their children from obtaining, but any honest thinking person knows that the industry is far too expansivene to take that answer seriously.
 
306Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 15:26
And of course Baldwin the greater issue isn't specifically with Grand Theft Auto at all, but with the threshold it (and some hacker, apparently) have crossed. Even if GTA isn't the perfect case to display a need for a more precise/informative rating system, I still don't see how anyone could say that it (and investigating whether retailers sell adult games to minors and cracking down on the ones that do) are bad ideas.
 
307Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 15:40
Sox: "I guess I'm mystified why ccp who is "Mr. Law and Order", regurgitating the personal responsibility and "if you can't do the time don't do the crime" mantras in one thread, is so bent out of shape over Hil's call for an investigation into a possible crime in another."

Because this involves targeting a company and supposedly stunting its sales because of some jerk out there who created a hack. I am all for the ESRB ratings system and enforcing it to make sure that only those in the proper age bracket can buy the game.

Hillary can say anything she wants. Looking at the big picture this is going to lead to videogame censorship and/or government intimidation via the various thugs at the agencies to fine companies into the stone age.

What I am against is this person standing in front of the cameras blasting this company and calling an investigation for an internet hack which the company held no control over. An insult of a companies product is an insult to the company. This company, that makes numerous popular adult games BTW, will undoubtedly get blamed and run thru the ringer all because she wants to make a feeble attempt to score points.

She does not understand the concept of videogames. I would wonder just how much experience she really has playing them in their entirety, from start to finish.

The topic of videogame censorship or stricter ratings is the Democrat equivolent of when Republicans say "family values". All they are doing is hitting the feeder bar for the mindless gerbil to run and eat up the pellet they leave behind.

GTA is an adult game, no doubt. If someone creates a hack for it (that does not violate law, remember all the Doom hacks and Quake mods that nobody went to a federal commission over?), too damn bad, we have freedom of speech in this country and freedom of expression.

MITH: I challenge you to find where I "apologized" or stood up for a Republican that would pull this same load of crap.

My root beliefs as a citizen revolve around the concept that government is the problem and not the solution. I want them to stay away from my gun (unless its an AK-47), my home, my paycheck as much as possible, my media, my bedroom, and whatever mode of entertainment I choose.

I do not like it when politicians give monologues on topics they know nothing about and I highly doubt it that Hillary has ever played Mario Brothers let alone GTA: San Andreas to the point of completion.

"CCP thinks he's being smart when he suggests that looking over a magazine during time spent in the bathroom will sufficiently educate non-video gaming parents on what titles to prevent their children from obtaining, but any honest thinking person knows that the industry is far too expansivene to take that answer seriously."

Never said that would be enough. It's a good start. Parents need to care.
 
308Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 16:03
What I am against is this person standing in front of the cameras blasting this company

Blatent lie. Where has she blasted Rockstar?

I challenge you to find where I "apologized" or stood up for a Republican that would pull this same load of crap.

I never made any claim that you have. However, when I have criticized conservatives for taking their censorship too far (like the conservative run FCC in the ABC/Saving Private Ryan episode) your response is never to stand up for the personal rights you pretend here to so valiently defend. No, your kneejerk reaction is to blast the poster who uses the term 'conservative' when describing censorship issue and to play the 'but they do it too' game.

My root beliefs as a citizen revolve around the concept that government is the problem and not the solution.

Do you smell yourself? I've never seen you even once criticize this Presidential administration, or any republican member of government. The pols on your side of the issue are a lot deeper in the muck of excessive censorship than the ones on my side, but no one would ever know that if they all listened to you.
 
309Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 16:53
Never said that would be enough. It's a good start. Parents need to care.

My only question at this point is whether your ego is actually inflated enough for you to believe that to be an adequate response. The only way parents can be sure to keep their kids out of the pitfalls of video game entertainment is if they stay as up to date on the stuff as their kids their kids are. There are very few parents for whom that is even a possibility.

this is going to lead to videogame censorship

So you're agianst game censorship. If it ever gets to banning games or their content, then I'll be on your side. I'm about 95% cerrtain that if it comes to the table, it'll be from someone on your side.

I am all for the ESRB ratings system

But you just said that you were against censorship. Oh wait, you meant that you are against excessive censorship? Apparently you didn't notice: no one mentioned in your article has proposed anything excessive.
 
310Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 17:26
And of course Baldwin the greater issue isn't specifically with Grand Theft Auto at all, but with the threshold it (and some hacker, apparently) have crossed. - Sox

I am telling you that the obscene types of violence in the original game design are already worse than any pixellated low rez faux sex in the mod could be.

If that 'hack' is only a hack into an 'easter egg' put there by the designer then it is all the more egregious.
 
311Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 19:18
MITH:

""I am all for the ESRB ratings system"

But you just said that you were against censorship. Oh wait, you meant that you are against excessive censorship? Apparently you didn't notice: no one mentioned in your article has proposed anything excessive."

The ESRB is not censorship. It is a guide much like that in the movie industry. I take no issue with that guide.

"So you're agianst game censorship. If it ever gets to banning games or their content, then I'll be on your side. I'm about 95% cerrtain that if it comes to the table, it'll be from someone on your side."

This is how it starts. Baby steps first, then over time it will lead to restrictions of our creative freedoms.

"Do you smell yourself? I've never seen you even once criticize this Presidential administration, or any republican member of government."

As long as Bush doesn't try to take away my second amendment rights, property, paycheck, Fox News/CNN/MSNBC/etc, and my PS2, all is good. His deficit spending is indeed pathetic and I have spoken out about fiscal constraint, but we are fighting two wars.

"My only question at this point is whether your ego is actually inflated enough for you to believe that to be an adequate response. The only way parents can be sure to keep their kids out of the pitfalls of video game entertainment is if they stay as up to date on the stuff as their kids their kids are. There are very few parents for whom that is even a possibility."

Then don't have the kids. Too many problems in society are root caused by parents not paying enough attention to their kids. If one doesn't care enough to wonder what games junior plays, but cares enough to get in front of the cameras to b!tch about game content, then that person is a moron.

"Blatent lie. Where has she blasted Rockstar?"

Her entire crusade is based off a game they made. Even though its a false crusade based off a hack that I'd don't believe she understands the concept of, but since when has that stopped politicians.

 
312Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 19:31
I estimate the odds that this was a deliberately planted easter egg at at least 50%.
 
313Tree
      ID: 22629179
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 20:01
I estimate the odds that this was a deliberately planted easter egg at at least 50%.

based on?
 
314Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Sun, Jul 17, 2005, 20:39
Rigorous Intuition.
 
315Tree
      ID: 17639186
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 07:41
Rigorous Intuition.

i saw them at the Hammerstein last year. not bad for death metal...
 
316Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 09:51
Not much left to say here. CCP's arguments regarding Hillary and her statements and proposals on this issue sufficiently hang themselves. I'll just post a brief sum-up of CCP's points, to better allow lurkers to organize his arguments:

The following 3 items;
1. Requesting an FTC investigation into whether possibly the most graphicly violent video game made should be granted the highest sensitivity-level rating (AO), rather than it's current rating (M), especially now that we know that players can download a modification that also adds graphic explicit sex to the fun, whether the maker intended it or not

2. Requesting that the FTC also look into whether current enforcement policies are adequately keeping retailers from selling graphic material to minors

3. Introducing legislation that calls for stiffer fines for retailers who sell adult games to minors
are not only precursors to acts of excessive censorship (despite that she has not even approached calling for a ban on any games or restrictions on any game content) - they are a bona fide crusade.

Further, through these actions, Senator Clinton is also guilty, according to CCP, of blasting the game maker, Rockstar, despite the fact that she has not blamed Rockstar for the downloadable modification, not suggested that their games are too graphic for the industry or otherwise criticized them or the industry in any way. I will point out here that there is an entity that has in fact openly questioned whether Rockstar is partly responsible for the modification, but it isn't Clinton. Its the ESRB, whom CCP apparently takes no issue with and whom he has even endorsed in this thread. Interesting that CCP fights to show us that Clinton's proposals for investigations into how adult games should be rated and the practices of retailers who sell the game are tantamount to an attack on the maker, but that ESRB's public investigation doesn't even warrant any mention from him at all. In fact, after he links the article that tells of the investigation, after I point out that he is getting ahead of himself with his vehement denials that Rockstar is responsible while the investigation is still pending, he goes on to praise the work of ESRB. Obviously, ESRB is not subject to the same standards for criticism as a Democrat Senator.

There are several other Cod Piece gems from yesterday's activity that, while have less to do with the meat of the topic (whether Clinton's proposals are a terrible idea, tantamount to declaring war on the video gaming industry and promoting excessive acts of censorship) I would be remiss to leave out of this summation.

Notably, that adults who are unable to keep up with the content of thousands of game titles and now the world of underground internet enhancements are apparently not qualified to be parents - or at the least, better off not having kids (per his suggestion).

And that he doesn't understand why any video gaming adult could ever vote for a politician who endorses the above policies, as if matters regarding personal hobby (forgeting for the moment the absurdity of his charges) should be the driving force behind the voting practices of every video game player.
 
317Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 10:16
are not only precursors to acts of excessive censorship...they are a bona fide crusade. - MITH

Lol! Once she is elected president you will never hear another word about it.
 
318Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 10:18
And since when is keeping pornographic levels of amoral violence from minors censorship? Have you heard one peep about keeping you from virtually killing cops all day long?
 
319Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 10:21
And since when is keeping pornographic levels of amoral violence from minors censorship?

I assume that question is directed at CCP.
 
320CCP At Work
      ID: 5653611
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 11:48
MITH:

Anytime a politician tries to restrict the content of a form of entertainment, that is censorship. Whether it comes in the form of a trojan horse a la some government body or an outright campaign issue.

The first amendment of the constitution guarentees the right of freedom of speech and expression. It does not guarentee the right once the Ministry Of Information approves the content.

There already is a ratings system in place to warn parents of the content of a game.

Hillary is creating this whole issue over a hack. Meaning, a non-original content of a game. Rockstar did not package this scene in with the game.

I recall that Boldwin had a computer issue a while back where someone else had control over it.

This would be the equivalent of the police or his ISP ransacking his home and blaming him for the hack being done.

Who do you think will receive the majority of the negative press from our uber-intelligent MSM? Rockstar games or the hacker who did this?

Mods/hacks have been a creative part of the videogame scene since Doom showed up. It's allowed fun stuff like Simpsons Doom and numerous Quake mods.

With the left attacking freedom of creativity, they are attacking our first amendment right of freedom of expression and speech.

As a citizen, I look to our lefist politicians to preserve my right to freely express myself and to be freely creative. Certainly Republicans do not want to be "pro-GTA".

If these hacks/mods were illegal, you couldn't tell because often times the original game makers enjoy them.

The guys at ID back in day enjoyed the Doom and Doom II mods.

Hillary is grabbing headlines for the sake of grabbing headlines. Whether or not the issue has substance or factual material doesn't matter to her.

Let's agree to disagree. I reserve the right to have the first amendment un-governmentized and adulterated and you agree to have everything filtered.

Boldwin: "And since when is keeping pornographic levels of amoral violence from minors censorship? Have you heard one peep about keeping you from virtually killing cops all day long?"

I will never disagree with a ratings system that acts in the same light as that of the movie industry.

Our definition of the word "pornographic" may differ so I will not presume to put words into your mouth.

I define pornographic as a clearly displayed and graphicly portrayed prolonged sexual act done without regard for artistic taste, but for the simple carnal satisfaction of the act.

GTA: San Andreas is nowhere near pornographic. Violent and adult-intended, yes absolutely but nowhere near porn.

Videogames are not reality. They are exactly what they say they are. A video-game.

GTA has now become a political buzzword designed to increase campaign contributions and excite Hillary's women base for the upcoming elections.

I still want to know if Hillary is qualified to speak on this topic. Has she played GTA in its entirety? Does she own an XBox? Has she even read sites like gamespot.com or a videogame magazine? Has she watched the videogame channel on cable (yes it does exist)?

or

Is she just making an uninformed blabbering statement?
 
321Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 11:56
C'mon CCP, you have got to know she is just posing in every conceivable way she can [considering how far she has painted herself into the liberal corner in the past] to appear centrist.

At least hold on until it is proven whether it is an easter egg or not.
 
322Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 12:41
Talk about blabbering! Amazing how you can write all that and still not say a single word on the specific merits of her actual proposals.

Why is it necessary for you to hear that She has played GTA when she hasn't made a single untruthful statement about the game? Even her proposal to possibly change the game's rating isn't based on any of her own personal notions about the game. She wants the FTC to look into whether the game deserves an AO rating. But that doesn't matter to you, juts like it doesn't matter that in real life, if anyone is going to be responsible for dragging Rockstar's name down, its ESRB, who is investigating whether Rockstar is partly involved in the downloadable enhancement - a fact that you have refused to acknowledge since you started this discussion. You have pretty much proven that you don't care nearly as much about the good name of Rockstar or the industry or any actual facts in this issue as you do about finding reasons to bitch about Hillary Clinton.

Also, believe it or not, CCP, extreme, vulgar violence/carnage is, by nature pornographic, even if there is no sex content.

Please, CCP, keep responding. Reading your posts in this thread has been the best fun in this forum for me in a while.
 
323CCP At Work
      ID: 5653611
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 13:14
MITH:

"Why is it necessary for you to hear that She has played GTA when she hasn't made a single untruthful statement about the game?"

Call me unfair, but I'd like our elected officials to know what they're talking about which apparently is something that doesn't matter to you.

If someone is going to be on the Senate Arms Committee, direct or indirect exposure to the Armed Forces would be nice.

"Players who download a modification, known as "hot coffee," from the Internet can make a male character engage in various sex acts with a virtual "girlfriend." Sex is suggested in the official version of the game, but does not happen on screen.

The game's manufacturer, a subsidiary of Take-Two Interactive Software Inc. called Rockstar Games, has said hackers are responsible for the modification."

In my country, it is innocent until proven guilty. In the state-run media/healthcare paradise you think perhaps Rockstar should be thrown to the wolves evidence be damned.

Trust me, if anyone is laughing at anyone here, it is me. It's amazing to me that you are such a Hillary-apologista that you will allow her to get the ball rolling on entertainment censorship.

You fail (not the first time) to see the bigger picture. This is caused by a hack or mod to the game. Hillary/Dems want these sorts of hacks/mods gone, so what is the solution?

Current technology does not permit selective permission to mod or hack. The very nature of the mod/hack negates any security measure placed in the game to disallow it.

Therefore, what is the solution? A good hard government crackdown on people who do this. Then nobody has access to this regardless if they are in the age bracket or not. That, is censorship.
 
324CCP At Work
      ID: 5653611
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 13:26
Thanks to this blogger...

Proving that stupidity knows no party lines, Senator Hillary Clinton wants an investigation into Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas

"Recently there's been a fuss about the "Hot Coffee" mod to Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. The third-party game modification allows the game's male protagonist to have graphic (pun) sexual relations with the various girlfriends he picks up during the game. These sex scenes cannot be accessed through normal game play without this third party modification. They are not part of the game as-released by Rockstar Games. The Grand Theft Auto series of games is not appropriate for children, and accordingly, it carries a rating of M-Mature, meaning it is not appropriate for sale to children under 17.
So keep these facts in mind:

The game is labeled to be sold only to those 17 and older
Sex scenes are not part of the game as it was released by Rockstar Games
Third party software must be downloaded off the Internet from a third party and installed before these sex scenes appear
Naturally the "for the children" crowd is apoplectic. They despise Grand Theft Auto as it is, still clinging to the myth that violent, antisocial behaviour in video games leads to people acting out violent, antisocial behaviour in real life. There's also a lot of people who still associate all video games with children, completely disregarding the fact that the average age of the modern game player is 30. This isn't a child's industry.

Yet as we know, there is a certain segment of the population that cannot simply choose not to buy something they find offensive, even if you make that decision simple by using a rating system. This segment of the population simply cannot accept the fact that someone else might want a product that they don't want for themselves. The product must be destroyed! Anything socially, emotionally, or spiritually challenging cannot simply be ignored; it must be exterminated.

I'm sad to say that Senator Hillary Clinton has jumped on the "for the children" bandwagon. Never mind that this game isn't meant to be sold to children. Never mind that you can't even see any sex scenes without modifying the software using a third-party application. She wants the Federal Trade Commission to determine "the source of this content," for the children because the children (who shouldn't have this game in the first place) could be exposed should the game fall into their hands.

Now how exactly does a game just fall into the hands of children? Is it raining game CDs outside or something? I want a FTC hearing into determining why parents aren't supervising their children, let alone why they're buying M-rated games and bringing them into a household where there are children who shouldn't have them.

Clinton went on to say, "Parents who rely on the ratings to make decisions to shield their children from influences that they believe could be harmful should be informed right away if the system is broken." But the system is not broken. The game is rated M! As you buy it off the shelf, it contains sufficient graphic violence and antisocial behaviour to make it worthy of the M rating. It isn't meant to be sold to or consumed by anyone under 17. The sex scenes aren't there until someone downloads a hack off the Internet.

Rockstar Games told the media, "Hackers created the 'Hot Coffee' modification by disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's source code." If what Rockstar says is true, then Hillary has no room to complain. Software got its name for a reason. It's malleable. It can be changed. A determined hacker could add sexually explicit material to anything from Grand Theft Auto to Mario Kart and post the program necessary to complete those mods to the Internet. If someone adds Mario having steamy gay sex with Luigi, will Hillary and those of her ilk demand an investigation into Nintendo? At least in that case there might be cause to complain: Mario Kart isn't rated M-- for Mature for its "intense violence, blood and gore, strong sexual content, strong language and use of drugs" as GTA is.

Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas is not for the children and nobody claimed it was. You can't see steamy sex scenes without downloading a third-party patch off the Internet. Children shouldn't have this game in the first place, let alone unsupervised use of the Internet to go download the patch and access sex scenes, no matter where the scenes might have originated.

How about some parental supervision and responsibility for a change? Don't buy your 12-year-old a copy of GTA. Don't let your kids use the Internet without your supervision. And let the 30-year-old-dominated game market enjoy the entertainment to which they're entitled."
 
325Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 13:39
So I guess that blogger feels that this whole issue can be dealt with in the media.
 
326Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 13:46
Call me unfair, but I'd like our elected officials to know what they're talking about which apparently is something that doesn't matter to you.

If every legislator was responsible for taking active part in everything that ever inspired any legislation... Well, lets just say that this isn't even a straw for you to grasp at. Keep trying, tho. You are hilarious.

In my country, it is innocent until proven guilty.

This is seriously your worst day if you are falling back on that one. I'm not criticizing you for failing to convict Rockstar! I'm criticizing you for failing to acknowledge that the only entity taking any action with the potential to harm Rockstar is the only entity that you have chosen to support while you focus all of your ire on Clinton, whom you falsely claim has blasted Rockstar.

Trust me, if anyone is laughing at anyone here, it is me.

Good for you. We're all better off if we allow a little self-depricating humor. And it does wonders for your credibility today.

It's amazing to me that you are such a Hillary-apologista that you will allow her to get the ball rolling on entertainment censorship.

It has nothing to do with my opinion of Hillary Clinton. This is not at all the firstr time in this forum that I've raised the issue that entertainment material that should be for adults only is too accessable for minors. Further, I fully expect Clinton to get more help on this from the right than the left and will praise the efforts of those who side with her and these measures, whatever their political affiliations.

If and when someone tries to ban games or any of their content, then I'll be on your side. No one has done that yet and just like you said, in this country it's innocent until proven guilty. You cite that moronic little statement to deny acknowledging an investigation into whether Rockstar is responsible for the mod but are already whining about censorship when no one has proposed any legislation to ban anything.

You fail (not the first time) to see the bigger picture. This is caused by a hack or mod to the game. Hillary/Dems want these sorts of hacks/mods gone, so what is the solution?

Uh, no. It is clearly you who fails to see the bigger picture. The presence of the hack/mod is only part of the reason for her issues, but its the only you acknowledge.

This stuff is too good. Keep it coming. Please.
 
327Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 14:01
Anyone else note the hilarity at CCP finding a like-thinking blogger on this topic at a place called web.morons?

And they live up to their name (and the standard set by CCP in this thread). Like CCP, he/she has no specific issues with any of the actual proposed legislation, only that she's a jerk for raising an issue that has to do with video games.

I don't know anything about this particular 'web moron', but I've seen enough of CCP to be quite sure that if some Republican senator proposed that we take some closer looks into who created the mods and whether retailers are obeying the law and holding the ones that don't accountable, this topic would never have been introduced in this forum. At least not in a Cosmo Cod Piece post.
 
328Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 14:09
And one more thing to add before while we wait for the next installation of brain-vomit from CCP.

Does anyone doubt for a moment that if some time from now, a Republican proposes some excessive censorship, CCP will place the blame squarely on Hillary Clinton rather than the authoritarian who actually proposes it?
 
329Texas Flood
      ID: 326462912
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 14:26
I love all the personal insults, adds a lot to the discussion.

Perhaps a better topic on GTASA would be all of the racisit stereo types that Rockstar put in thier game. I'm pretty sure this will be defended on the grounds of free speech and pointing out bad behavior with yet more bad behavior
 
330Tree
      ID: 17639186
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 14:32
i'm still confused about the whole "nudity bad, violence and tobacco good" stance...
 
331Texas Flood
      ID: 326462912
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 14:40
on que.
 
332Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 14:55
TF I do believe its designed for most people to be offended by it, but if you're suggesting that its offensive content has crossed any legal barriers - or that any should be put in place to prevent or get rid of media that includes the kind of material you're talking about, you'll move me and my response over to CCP's side of the issue.
 
333Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 15:25
CONFIRMED: Rockstar included an explicit sex minigame in GTASA
This week saw a Grand Theft Auto game once again at the center of a nationwide controversy. The point of contention this time was the so-called "Hot Coffee" mod for Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, which had everyone from anti-game crusader Jack Thompson to US Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) percolating with outrage and/or calls for federal game regulation.

The Hot Coffee mod first surfaced last month, when the PC version of San Andreas was released. The mod, which is available on numerous Web sites, adds a bonus sex minigame as a reward for the numerous "girlfriend" missions in San Andreas.

Previously, when game hero Carl "CJ" Johnson successfully wined and dined one of several girlfriends a certain number of times, she would ask him into her house for "coffee." After entering, the game shows an external shot of the house with muffled sounds of a couple emitting moans in flagrante delicto. PC versions of San Andreas with the "Hot Coffee" mod installed show what goes on inside the house, treating players to a sexually graphic minigame of CJ fornicating with his girlfriend.

According to its creators, the Hot Coffee mod merely unlocks hidden, preexisting code inside San Andreas. The game's publisher, Rockstar Games, appeared to vehemently--but carefully--deny that charge in a statement earlier this week. "So far we have learned that the 'Hot Coffee' modification is the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game," the company said. "In violation of the software user agreement, hackers created the 'Hot Coffee' modification by disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's source code."

Rockstar's statement also claimed that the mod was the product of complex technical tampering. "Since the 'Hot Coffee' scenes cannot be created without intentional and significant technical modifications and reverse-engineering of the game's source code, we are currently investigating ways that we can increase the security protection of the source code and prevent the game from being altered by the 'Hot Coffee' modification," read the statement.

However, Rockstar Games' argument has been undermined by an increasing number of reports that claimed the sex minigame is in the PlayStation 2 version of San Andreas. Since the PS2 version comes on an unmoddable DVD, it cannot have any content added to it, although cheat codes--created either by the publisher or third parties--can unlock preexisting code on the disc. While devices such as GameShark and Action Replay Max can tweak preexisting variables in system memory with cheats, they cannot inject new models, animations, and/or code into a game.

To prove or disprove rumors that the PS2 San Andreas contains a sexually graphic minigame, GameSpot decided to test the cheat codes circulating around the Web on a sealed, first-edition copy of San Andreas. After acquiring the "Uncensored Hot Coffee" codes from the respected tech-blog Kotaku, we entered them into an easily obtainable Action Replay Max cheat device. After entering the "Enable all Girlfriends" cheat, we began the game and then gave CJ maximum sex appeal, via a cheat from GameFAQs that requires no external code.

After saving, our test editor had Carl visit the house of his nearest girlfriend, Denise in Los Santos. Carl then took Denise on a series of dates to the nearest bar. After a few complications--including being busted for two-timing by another of CJ's girlfriends--we completed a fourth date with Denise, after which she invited us into her house for "coffee."

The next screen proved that the PlayStation 2 edition of the game does indeed include a sexually graphic minigame, which plays almost exactly the same as the Hot Coffee mod. It begins inside a bedroom with Denise, wearing only a pink thong and a cutoff T-shirt bearing the Rockstar logo, performing simulated fellatio on CJ, who is fully clothed in jeans and a "wife beater"-style tank top.

After a few seconds, the minigame proceeds to semi-explicit simulated copulation. Although players can change the camera angle with the circle button, as well as cycle though three sexual positions with the square button, no genitalia are ever seen. To win, players must maintain a steady rhythm with the left analog stick to build up an "excitement meter" on the right of the screen. Fill the meter and Denise becomes very excited, telling CJ he is "the man" before the game congratulates you with the words "Nice guys finish last!" Let the meter drop to empty and the game admonishes you with "Failure to satisfy a woman is a CRIME!"

Given that the minigame is about as raunchy as an episode of Sex and the City, cannot be accessed without entering a long string of cheat codes, and takes several hours of effort to access, charges that San Andreas is "pornographic" may seem extreme to some. However, its existence does appear to contradict Rockstar Games' carefully worded statement blaming hacker mischief for the existence of the Hot Coffee mod.
Looks like it isn't quite as graphic as the hot coffee download, but this clearly dispels the notion (which was largely irrelevant, anyway) that any explicit sexual content in the game is solely the result of a hacker. What are the chances that CCP didn't know about this cheat?
 
334CCP At Work
      ID: 5653611
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 15:41
MITH:

"Looks like it isn't quite as graphic as the hot coffee download, but this clearly dispels the notion (which was largely irrelevant, anyway) that any explicit sexual content in the game is solely the result of a hacker."

Only you would create a post the size of the Book of Genesis and then admit in the same post that it is irrelevant to the facts/discussion at hand which it is.
 
335Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 16:21
Fair enough, I guess. But that post was for you. What I'm saying is that your argument regarding your claim that the sex content isn't Rockstars fault is not only foolish, it isn't even true.
 
336CCP At Work
      ID: 5653611
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 16:48
MITH:

"Given that the minigame is about as raunchy as an episode of Sex and the City, cannot be accessed without entering a long string of cheat codes, and takes several hours of effort to access, charges that San Andreas is "pornographic" may seem extreme to some."

Fair enough to say they did their due diligence such that someone who is under age would have an extreme difficulty in obtaining the material.

I point to my other link stating the average age of a gamer to be 30 and that is certainly nearly the average age of a gamer for this game.

"TF I do believe its designed for most people to be offended by it, but if you're suggesting that its offensive content has crossed any legal barriers - or that any should be put in place to prevent or get rid of media that includes the kind of material you're talking about, you'll move me and my response over to CCP's side of the issue."

Take note that you are willing to see my side and join the side in this argument when confronted with a natural evolution of this beginning phase of censorship.

If I believed for a moment that Clinton/Santorum had a genuine concern about this specific issue and not a broader sinister future goal for this, I wouldn't be so adament.

It is to their advantage to have games (and the media) content toned down.

For instance, the game "Destroy All Humans" allows you to scan humans to see what they are thinking.

One of the thoughts scanned when you read the mind of a soldier is (paraphrased), "I should've done duty in the Texas Air National Guard, now that would've been easy."

That's a mild case of where free speech in entertainment can damage a politician. In the post-Presidential election time, that phrase about Bush means nothing and I could care less even if it did come out during an election period.

But you can see the damage that can pose and how that might scare people during mid-terms and 2008.
 
337Tree
      ID: 17639186
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 17:15
this wouldn't be the first major release to feature sex, nudity, and adult themes. heck, 20 years ago Leisure Suit Larry went around my TRS-80 trying to get laid...

i'm not sure why there is backlash on hilary for this, particular from anyone who leans to the right. seems to me an accurate video game rating system shouldn't be an issue.
 
338Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 17:31
MITH

Your defending GFA but calling CCP's posts brain vomit is indefensible.

Tree

My easter egg intuition stands vindicated.
 
339Tree
      ID: 17639186
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 17:40
indeed it does Baldwin, at least to a certain extent.

however, i think the issue here is that CCP is attacking hilary because, well, she's hilary, not because of any stance she takes.

by singling out hilary on this issue, he seems perfectly accepting of video games having any sort of content whatsoever, regardless of who's playing.
 
340Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 17:44
Respact maa intuition authoritaiiii
 
341Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 18:03
At the risk of being a killjoy, there's already a "B/TCH IS BACK" thread for Hillary bashing.

"The direction of the Democratic Party" doesn't have one post about the continuing embarassment Howard Dean has been.
 
342Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 18:09
Ohhhh, but the queen of evil deserves her very own thread you killjoy. ;>
 
343Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 18:29
Tree:

"however, i think the issue here is that CCP is attacking hilary because, well, she's hilary, not because of any stance she takes."

Even IF that were true, which it is not, how would it differ with yours, Sarges, etc. etc. stance on your beloved "Shrub"?

Don't give me that load of BS anyway. I voted for the co-President when I voted for her husband in '96.
 
344Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 19:05
CCP
Fair enough to say they did their due diligence such that someone who is under age would have an extreme difficulty in obtaining the material.

Bull and you know it. Its difficult to obtain because its difficult to perform the game-related tasks that reward the player with teh sex scene. There are plenty enough 13 year olds who are every bit as adept at video games as people our age. Its no more difficult for minors than it is for adults.

If I believed for a moment that Clinton/Santorum had a genuine concern about this specific issue and not a broader sinister future goal for this, I wouldn't be so adament.

Again, what happened to innocent until guilty? Further, when has Clinton ever censored anything. Funny how one conservative doesn't believe that Hillary cares a lick about keeping the game out of minors' or anyones' hands and another conservative pretends to believe this is part of a sinister censorship plot. Too much!

Baldwin,

I don't know what you mean by 'defending GTA'. If you mean defending its right to exist, I'll do so to no end, while fighting to give parents the best opportunity possible to know whats in its content and that retailers aren't selling the stuff to their kids when no one is looking. Your refulsal to take CCP to task for his disingenuousness and inability to recognize someone on your side is whats indefensibile. But you've shown how far your morals will allow you to side with your political foes. Got any new dirt on the UN from Mugabe lately?

But for the record, I think its disgusting and inexcusable that Rockstar hid soft porn and who knows what else in its PS2 and possibly oter versions of its games.

I'm shocked if you are actually saying that it should be illegal to produce this stuff. But if your point is that the creators and purveyors of adult material need to be forthcoming about the content of their stuff and that there should be stiff penalties for burying these surprises within the game, I'm with you.

As far as the game and others like it are concerned, banning them or their extreme adult content would be pointless.
 
345Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 19:15
Its difficult to obtain because its difficult to perform the game-related tasks that reward the player with...

My kids could have cracked any game within a week.

I think the damage to society from the game even without the cheat code access is as great as for smoking. I have no problem with restricting it from kids totally. Forget mere parental notification. The average grandparent bying their kid GFA because they were asked to, don't even notice the sticker. My wife talked some grandparents out of doing just that once at the store. They had no idea what was in the game.
 
346soxzeitgeist
      ID: 23528248
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 19:20
So now Hillary has to be a regular video gamer to "qualify" as a critic? (I still want to know if Hillary is qualified to speak on this topic. Has she played GTA in its entirety? Does she own an XBox? Has she even read sites like gamespot.com or a videogame magazine? Has she watched the videogame channel on cable...? ~ ccp

To paraphrase your own argument cosmo: "are the only people allowed to criticise videogames people who play them?" If so, maybe you ought to rethink your post (65) in this thread.
 
347biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 19:23
Ouch.
 
348Tree
      ID: 17639186
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 19:49
memories...of the way we were....

btw, CCP, i have praised Bush before, albeit only once or twice...
 
349Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 20:20
Sox:

Taking a page from your book bro. I'm still waiting on an answer for that question so thanks for bringing it up again.

Your little temper tantrum in post 66 was especially touching.
 
350Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 21:38
You never know what sneaky opponent research they gonna come up with next.
 
351soxzeitgeist
      ID: 23528248
      Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 23:37
Nice dodge, cosmo, but then why should I expect you to have any type of continuity to your arguments? A quick review of your posts reveals little more depth than knee-jerk reactions any time a liberal, a democrat or a Clinton comes up - you're essentially only regurgitating GOP talking points.

And you're goddamn right I had a little temper tantrum. Being called "an American hating socialist" by someone who doesn't know the first thing about service has that effect on me.

And by service I mean service to your country, service to your fellow man or service to any ideal other than the "f*ck you I've got mine" mentality that you demonstrate every time you set fingers to keyboard.
 
352Boldwin
      ID: 426171711
      Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 02:41
Tell it to Terri Schiavo.
 
353Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 06:07
Sox: You are an American hating socialist. Get in touch with your inner Commie and wake up Matthew.
 
354Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 06:25
My position is what it is regarding Hillary and her little tirade against videogames. I think there's a bigger goal out there for this agenda and I don't want any media censored. That's it, I'm done.

More direction of the Democratic Party, this time coming from Chicago...

Feds charge 'massive fraud' in city hiring

"The federal investigation into corruption in Chicago's Hired Truck Program entered a new phase today, as two city officials – one widely known as Mayor Richard Daley's patronage chief – were charged with rigging the city's hiring process to guarantee jobs to political favorites.

Robert Sorich, an employee of the Office of Intergovernmental Affairs who the Tribune on Sunday identified as the Daley administration's patronage chief, and Patrick Slattery, director of staff services for the Streets and Sanitation Department, each was charged in a federal criminal complaint with one count of mail fraud.

U.S. Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald described the scheme as a "massive fraud in the hiring process going back more than a decade.""

Daley dumps Hired Truck Program

"With 17 indictments already and no end in sight, Mayor Daley is throwing in the towel: He's getting out of the Hired Truck business, turning the mess over to a private contractor and taking the extraordinary step of banning donations to his campaign fund from firms doing business with the city.

The cost to Daley is expected to be significant -- assuming he decides to seek re-election in 2007. At mid-term, the mayor has $3 million in his war chest, including roughly $1 million from city contractors.

But after indictments galore and a parade of scandals tied to cronyism and minority business fraud, that's a chance the mayor is apparently willing to take.

"Anyone who believes that my interest in public life is in enriching my family, friends or political supporters doesn't know or understand me at all," the mayor said during his annual City of Chicago address. "My reputation and the well-being of this city are more important to me than any election.""

Yeah Mr. Mayor, you forgot to say "Vote twice on election day." while you were at it.


Daley: Heroin Bust Does Not Signify Corruption: City Workers Charged With Heroin Trafficking

"Pressed for his comments at an unrelated news conference Wednesday, Mayor Richard M. Daley said, "Heroin is all over. People sell heroin all over. People ... it doesn't matter, could be a public employee, a private employee. People are selling heroin right now out on the streets."

Daley said he's not embarrassed by the charges because "I didn't sell it.""

Great response Mr. Mayor.

Is this making national news or is the liberal media burying this too?
 
355Tree
      ID: 56635196
      Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 07:37
Tell it to Terri Schiavo.

isn't that the woman who's husband had to go to court to preserve her rights?
 
356Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 09:18
My position is what it is regarding Hillary and her little tirade against videogames. I think there's a bigger goal out there for this agenda and I don't want any media censored. That's it, I'm done.

That last sentence is easily the smartest thing you've written on the topic.

Anyway, your slippery-slope argument is just another straw man. You're ego is so out of control that you don't realize that a "Slippery slope", must begin with an actual 'slope' to slide down. Hillary doesn't provide one. These arguments can only have merit when the measure in question actually does take away some rights (or in this case, media access) from the public. Hillary has proposed nothing of the sort. She hasn't even proposed any new rules or regulations regarding adult video games.

If your claim is that she has gotten the snowball rolling, thats just further evidence that your whining is based entirely on your hate for her and has little or nothing to do about protecting video games. This is because it wasn't Clinto at all who started this. GTA has been in the news for years. In the past year, there have been legislative proposals regarding restricting video game access to minors, including this one in CA and a similar one in Illinois. Last year, Arnold Schwarzenegger signed something called the California Video Games Bill. Further, it was a full week before Hillary said anything when the ESRB launched its investigation into whether Rockstar was responsible for Hot Coffee. In fact, it stands entirely to reason that it was ESRB that made Clinton aware of the issue (or the political opportunity in it, for those who don't trust her) in the first place! Where was Mr. 'up on the video game world'-Cod Piece when all of that stuff was making news in all the video game mags he keeps in his bathroom?

If there is a snowball, it was rolling long before Hillary Clinton made a peep about video games. And if there is a single party responsible for keeping that ball going or making get any bigger, its probably Rockstar with this stunt they have pulled - one I'm entirely sure you knew all about as you were claiming that there was no explicit sex content built into the game. What a wonderful ally you are for conservatives at this forum.

Really, if I was someone who cared about the future of entertainment media censorship as much as you pretend to (especially a conservative still smarting from 20 years of the Brady Bill and other overreaching anti-gun proposals from the left), I would be thankful that the first nationally proposed legislation coming from this (or are there others you didn't bother to mention because they didn't come from Clinton's office?) does not propose any new restrictive measures, whatsoever, but instead focuses on making sure that the laws already on the books are being enforced.
 
357Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 09:41
Re post 354

I haven't had a chance to read through the Mayor Daley stuff so I'm not too sure what its about. But I don't believe its apropriate for this thread, except as a smokescreen from your activity from the past two days.

Daley might be corrupt or a jerk or whatever claim you have made or reported, and therefore entirely deserving of an evisceration at this forum worse than the one you have received here this week. But I don't believe the politics of a big city Democrat mayor are necessarily indicitive of any trends within the party. It would be pretty silly of me to point to Mayor Bloomberg in a thread about the direction of the GOP.
 
358Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 186252011
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 14:31
From Playboy Magazine; take what you will from it (no link):
Senator John McCain recently explained why George Bush defeated John Kerry: "We Republicans were able to frame the debate appropriately." The political class, once obsessed with spin, has a new mantra. It's all about the frame. We talked to George Lakoff, a professor of Linguistics at Berkeley who advises the Democratic Party about this subtle art.

Playboy: What do you mean by "framing the debate"?

Lakoff: Framing is characterizing the conceptual framework of ideas and values people hold, then finding appropriate language for those ideas and values.

P: What's an example of benign, honest framing?

L: A classic example is the Endangered Species Act. It said we were there to protect species, and it was honest because vast numbers of species were endangered. It was indeed meant to protect them.

P: Can framing be honest and partisan at the same time?

L: The right's use of tax relief is honest framing. If you are strongly conservative, you see taxes as an affliction to be eliminated. That's what tax relief says: Taxes are an affliction.

P: Does the left have an answer to that frame?

L: It doesn't. The left tells a story. Taxation is the use of the common wealth for common good. It's an investment in things that help us all - roads, the Internet, the courts, the FCC and so on. It's also education, which is an investment in individuals. Without those investments we are not able to pursue our individual goals.

P: Doesn't have the same pop.

L: Because the right has done 35 years of work on this, it can say two words: tax relief. And I, on the left, have to give you a story. If we'd had a similar period in which we were sending our ideas out there, we could just say, "tax investments" and everyone would know what we meant.

P: What’s the outlook for Democrats right now?

L: The right has had thousands of people working on this and has poured in a lot of money. The right has figured out something it didn't know in 1964 when Goldwater lost - what Republicans have in common, what their values are, what their basic ideas are. We need to determine which values draw progressives together, the most efficient arguments for those ideas and a language for expressing them. Our best guess is that it will take 6 to 10 years to catch up - if we do it right.
 
359Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 14:37
More Lakoff stuff

Rockridge Institute
 
360Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 14:55
You're ego is so out of control that you don't realize that a "Slippery slope", must begin with an actual 'slope' to slide down. Hillary doesn't provide one. These arguments can only have merit when the measure in question actually does take away some rights (or in this case, media access) from the public.

I must entirely disagree. Volokh has a decent review article on slippery slopes that makes the above assertions very dubious, IMO.

She hasn't even proposed any new rules or regulations regarding adult video games.

Really? CCPs original article again attacks your position: Saying the problem of explicit video games was "spiraling out of control," Clinton also said she was introducing legislation that would crack down on the sale of violent and sex-laden games to minors.

The legislation would impose a $5,000 penalty on retailers who sell adult-rated video games to underage children.

Clinton asked the FTC to look into whether Grand Theft Auto's rating of "M" (Mature 17+) should be changed to the rare "AO" (Adult Only), which would threaten to crimp sales at large retail outlets.


One might argue that for something to "spiral out of control" there would have to be an actual slope to spiral up ... Here, Hillary presents a formula for increased government control of everyone's life. (a) new legislation governing sales of video games, and (b) new regs to apply to GTA. Forget your id? Forget buying the game. Have a competitor that is outselling you? Go whine to the FTC, or get hackers to mod your opposition's game. Make a business decision to abandon code, but don't bother to entirely strip it out of your game? Brace yourself for attack.

I don't understand how Hillary's position here is in anyway defensible. It's a mundane appeal to basal fears that life is out of control and that without government protection, we may become unwilling victims. Thanks but no thanks.

Democrats have long been on the record to regulate what you put in your body (think FDA); now via Hillary (and Lieberman and others), they are joining forces with the religious right to regulate what you expose your mind to. This is neither the biggest issue nor the most important, but it is representative.

Hillary -- I'm smart enough to live my own life, thank you very much, and I'd appreciate it if you would stand aside and let me get on with it.
 
361Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 14:57
Any way defensible?

Retailers are obviously not following the law and selling to minors. Why is this OK for you?
 
362Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 15:00
Just to make the point dead clear ... MITH said, She hasn't even proposed any new rules or regulations regarding adult video games

Let us presume that you produce games designed to be sold to adults. Will Hillary's proposals affect you in any way, cause you to do anything differently? Of course. Therefore, her regulations DO affect the adult video game market.

Further, I think it is rather obvious that they have a *potentially* stifling effect. Entire software companies can be driven under via lawsuits over this sort of thing, even if they are innocent.

There is no natural division of the marketplace into pre 18 year olds and older than 18 year olds. Therefore, the division must be artifial. Artificial barriers lend themselves to intense litigation. Intense litigation or the threat thereof will obviously change all firms' behavior, whether intended by new regs or not.
 
363Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 15:02
That doesn't clarify it at all. You are speaking of this division as though the fact that it is not "natural" is a bad thing, to be avoided. The division between minority and majority status is, indeed, "artificial" but it is well known, understood, and generally agreed upon as being necessary.
 
364Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 15:03
Retailers are obviously not following the law and selling to minors. Why is this OK for you?

This is obvious? Where? How?

Hillary isn't complaining about retailers not following the laws already on the books. Hillary argues that *additional* laws are needed. Further, she never argues that the law is potentially effective here, and she never gives lipservice to the potentially stifling effect on creativity and freedom that she is supporting.

In sum, she is being dogmatic, joining forces with religious zealots to erode our freedoms. Why is that ok with you?
 
365Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 15:33
I have to apologize--whenever someone from the Right starts telling me what Hilary Clinton is thinking I stop reading right there.

We do know that minors are buying the game on their own (FTC reports-- 70% of 13 to 16 year olds are able to purchase M-rated games.). From that we know that the law which resticts sales of this product isn't working.
 
366CCP At Work
      ID: 5653611
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 15:41
PD:

"From that we know that the law which resticts sales of this product isn't working."

Then crack down on the retailers and not the game makers.

How is it Rockstars fault/problem that Best Buy sells the game to minors?

We cannot become a country that stifles creativity and freedom of expression and shatters one of the very cornerstones of our constitution and what makes us great simply because children are buying adult material that they have no legal business buying.
 
367Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 15:52
Absolutely crack down on the retailers. But it's naive to think that the game manufacturers have no ability to affect change by the retailers, either. Right now the manufacturers aren't serious at all, and in fact have no incentive to encourage retailers to restrict buyers of their products.

In other words, leaving it to the industry to police themselves has been a disaster.
 
368CCP At Work
      ID: 5653611
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 15:56
PD:

That's because the laws ALREADY ON THE BOOKS haven't been enforced properly.

Realistically, what do you expect the manufacturer to do? Their product comes packaged with the game rating already on the box. By doing that, they have already notified the store and the buyer which age group is allowed to buy this game.

They have no presence at the point of sale.
 
369Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 16:02
Just like alcohol and cigarette manufacturers, CCP?

Like you, the manufacturers are throwing up their hands, saying "not our problem." Well, it's everyone's problem. Education, signage, restriction of the number of games sold to retailers who are found to sell to underage buyers, refusal to sell at all to retailers who don't have special mature sections of the store, etc etc.

There are lots of things manufacturers can do to affect point of sale purchases. To actually encourage the law to be followed.

Ironically, by not doing what they can, manufacturers have allowed politicians to propose even tougher laws. So it's in manufacturers best interests to leave the cushy confines of CCP-land where they can collect millions of dollars from underage buyers while giving the Sargeant Schultz "I see nothing!" defense. They need to show that they care about the law to make further restrictions unnecessary.

They just haven't done it.

 
370CCP At Work
      ID: 5653611
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 16:23
PD:

C'mon, let's not degenerate the conversation into personal insults.

It is the retailers responsibility to make sure that the product is sold according to the age group it can be legally sold to.

If Sarge sold a car to a twelve-year-old and let him drive off in it, who should the police go after, Ford or him?

"There are lots of things manufacturers can do to affect point of sale purchases. To actually encourage the law to be followed."

They label the box "MSRB Rating, MA: Mature Gamers Only". This is a hard coded label so that you cannot take it off because it is part of the box. It's not like a price tag that you can peel off.

The price of the product is $50 per game. That should ward off most minors unless they acquire funds from mom and dad.

How is that not a red flag to the retailer that this shouldn't be sold to kids?

"Well, it's everyone's problem."

In every videogame mag I read, part of every review is the MSRB Rating of the game. When the kid runs up to mom and dad while holding the magazine yelling "Buy this!", the parents have an opportunity before they even get to the stores to say no.
 
371Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 186252011
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 17:55
PD
Thanks for the Lakoff stuff. I only had a chance to briefly skim through some of it, but he appears to come off a lot smarter than in the Playboy interview. Not that I didn't find his points interesting (I wouldn't have posted then) but they seemed maybe a little dumbed down, I guess.


Madman
Here, Hillary presents a formula for increased government control of everyone's life.

No, she hasn't. If anything, you could argue that she presents a formula for (very slightly) increased government control of minors and parents who want to provide their kids with explicit material - not without benefit, by the way.

(a) new legislation governing sales of video games, and (b) new regs to apply to GTA.

Look, the only new legislation governing sales of video game she proposes are stricter fines for retailers who break already-existing regulations. You might feel that the current fines are stiff enough (do you know what they are? I don't) or that $5,000 for illegally selling explicit material to minors is excessive, and I might agree. But I don't understand your issues as you present them at all.

Forget your id? Forget buying the game.

Let’s get this straight. She has not proposed that GTA receive a more restrictive rating. She has proposed that the FTA look into whether the game's current rating, M is appropriate and whether the game should actually be rated AO, according to the ratings system that we already have in place. To be clear, as far as I can tell she does not seek to change the way games are rated, she seeks to know that in this case, the rating system is applied as it is intended.

Both M-rated and AO-rated games are not allowed to be sold to minors. The difference is that M-rated games permit sale to minors with parental consent (I assume the parent must be present for the purchase). Forgot your ID? The law said you couldn't buy the game before Hillary got involved. Am I missing something?

Hillary isn't complaining about retailers not following the laws already on the books. Hillary argues that *additional* laws are needed. Further, she never argues that the law is potentially effective here

and CCP's post 366:
Then crack down on the retailers and not the game makers.

and CCP's 368:
That's because the laws ALREADY ON THE BOOKS haven't been enforced properly.

You've both got this wrong here. She has in fact proposed that the FTC investigate whether retailers are selling adult material to minors. Finding out if retailers are "not following laws already on the books" is the clear objective of one of her primary proposals. Another proposal is the $5,000 penalty I mentioned above. Why is CCP so critical of measures that are in lockstep with the precise action that he is calling for?

Also from CCP:
How is it Rockstars fault/problem that Best Buy sells the game to minors?

Show us where Clinton blamed Rockstar for M-rated games getting into the hands of minors.

Back to Madman:
It's a mundane appeal to basal fears that life is out of control and that without government protection, we may become unwilling victims. Thanks but no thanks.

I believe there's merit to that perspective, but that it isn't very pragmatic. The fact is that it is extremely difficult for even very diligent parents to keep explicit video games and other material out of their kids' hands. My opinion is that the government is able to be of some service in that that regard with more effective measures that add very few restrictions to adults.

via Hillary (and Lieberman and others), they are joining forces with the religious right to regulate what you expose your mind to.

Here, if you're talking about adults, I see no basis for that statement. These measures call for no new regulation with regard to what adults expose their minds to.

Hillary -- I'm smart enough to live my own life, thank you very much, and I'd appreciate it if you would stand aside and let me get on with it.

I fail to see how Hillary stepping aside on this issue allows you any freedoms you won't otherwise have - unless you intend to purchase Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for your adolescent son or daughter. And even if that's the case, her measures will not prevent that endeavor unless the appropriate board decides that the game was rated wrong according to the preexisting standards already in place.

There is no natural division of the marketplace into pre 18 year olds and older than 18 year olds. Therefore, the division must be artifial. Artificial barriers lend themselves to intense litigation. Intense litigation or the threat thereof will obviously change all firms' behavior, whether intended by new regs or not.

As I've pointed out, those artificial barriers, which you seem to blame Senator Clinton for, are already in place. If you have an issue with pre-existing standards for the sale of entertainment media, you're entitled to your opinion but I really suggest that you're much better off trying to change the standards than you are criticizing people who make it their business to see that they are enforced.

Let us presume that you produce games designed to be sold to adults. Will Hillary's proposals affect you in any way, cause you to do anything differently? Of course. Therefore, her regulations DO affect the adult video game market.

You'll have to enlighten me here. Which of her proposals will affect the way game makers go about their business and exactly what effect are those proposals likely to have?
 
372Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 17:58
They label the box "MSRB Rating, MA: Mature Gamers Only".

not any more they don't...

'GTA' Game Rating Changed to Adults-Only
 
373Boldwin
      ID: 47611911
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 18:09
I can't believe Madman is so gung ho to see children with zero restraints on what they can buy.

The legislation would impose a $5,000 penalty on retailers who sell adult-rated video games to underage children.

Clinton asked the FTC to look into whether Grand Theft Auto's rating of "M" (Mature 17+) should be changed to the rare "AO" (Adult Only), which would threaten to crimp sales at large retail outlets
- CCP's link

One might argue that for something to "spiral out of control" there would have to be an actual slope to spiral up - Madman

I'm smart enough to live my own life, thank you very much, and I'd appreciate it if you would stand aside and let me get on with it. - Madman

Of course there is a slope. Games can and will get worse if shock value sells and sells to anyone who asks. Kids stupidly buy the grossest thing they can find. Sell them dead baby part candy? Sure, the more shocking the more they like it. Slime candy? Sure. Puke candy? Sure.

Next someone, who knows that no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the average 13 yr old, will be producing a game where you lobotomize your baby sister. You want them to have a steady diet of that? Cop killing and deliberately raping and killing people is already so over the edge I don't see how it has any defenders. If you can't make that impossible to play by minors then this society is mad.
 
374Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 18:37
The fact is that it is extremely difficult for even very diligent parents to keep explicit video games and other material out of their kids' hands.

Yeah, it's super difficult to monitor your kid as they go through 8 hours worth of work to get the "Hot Coffee" mod going. Let me tell you a little secret: if a kid is going to spend that amount of time and if seeing those cartoon characters get off is that destructive to your kids' psyche, you've got bigger problems than a stupid mod for a stupid game.

These measures call for no new regulation with regard to what adults expose their minds to. So, as an adult, do I have to buy a game from a company who has spent resources designing kid protections rather than making the game better?

Which of her proposals will affect the way game makers go about their business and exactly what effect are those proposals likely to have?

Pursuing this case in front of the FTC will have a chilling effect on other game manufacturers. There is all sorts of code that can be manipulated in all sorts of games. Hillary is arguing that a game manufacturer performing due diligence is not enough. Whatever.

It is patently obvious how this sort of thing can affect the gaming industry. Just look at what happened to id Software after Columbine, for example.

What you are talking about is heavy regulation and monitoring of a relatively informalized sector of our economy, highly dependent upon small company entrepreneurship. The resulting inefficiencies are obvious.
 
375Boldwin
      ID: 47611911
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 18:42
1) The game without the mod is more pornographic than the mod.

2) It might have a chilling effect on other companies that want to design games around deliberately raping and killing? Where's my crying towel? I feel the urge to cry them a river.
 
376Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 19:10
I can't believe Madman is so gung ho to see children with zero restraints on what they can buy.

I can't believe that Baldwin wants the goevernment to decide for parents how to raise their children.
 
377biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 19:13
I'm with the Ms. Your kid has to play an incredible amount of these games. If you are so detached from your child that you have no idea what he spent the last 50 hours on the computer doing, (s)he's is pretty much screwed anyway.

Cartoon fornication. feh. They see worse on prime-time.
 
378Boldwin
      ID: 47611911
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 19:15
Why, did you ever see me complaining about restrictions on underage drinking or driving or smoking or buying porn?
 
379biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 19:17
It's also amazing to me that it's the little sexy bits that get the holier than thou all worked up. This game is incredibly violent from minute one. I'm not one to think that the vast majority of kids are going to suffer permanent harm from either the sex or the violence, but I would be more worried about the violence.
 
380Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 19:23
Yeah, it's super difficult to monitor your kid as they go through 8 hours worth of work to get the "Hot Coffee" mod going.

Well that really isn't the point, is it? Just about all of your arguments to this point have been about what these measure will do to the the bigger picture. The difficulty in accessing the sex content in this particular game is irrelvant to the real trouble parents have in keeping up with their kids entertainment.

So, as an adult, do I have to buy a game from a company who has spent resources designing kid protections rather than making the game better?

I don't see why you would, if all we're talking about are Clinton's proposals.

Pursuing this case in front of the FTC will have a chilling effect on other game manufacturers. There is all sorts of code that can be manipulated in all sorts of games.

Now I've got a secret for you. This case has been publicly persued in all kinds of public and government forums since the first incepton of GTA, years ago. It has already inspired legislation, some that has passed, and some that hasn't. If anything, the exposure has prompted other game manufacturers to push the envelope further. Baldwin is right on in post 375.

Hillary is arguing that a game manufacturer performing due diligence is not enough. Whatever.

I don't understand what you mean by this. If your issue is that there should be no ratings system and/or related sales restrictions in place to begin with, I wish you'd say so. Otherwise, I still fail to see the problem with efforts to see that those regulations are apropriately applied.

It is patently obvious how this sort of thing can affect the gaming industry. Just look at what happened to id Software after Columbine, for example.

What's "id software"? And what happened to it after Columbine?

What you are talking about is heavy regulation and monitoring of a relatively informalized sector of our economy, highly dependent upon small company entrepreneurship.

Hmm, I don't believe so. What you are talking about might be heavy regulation, but I don't think that's an accurate description of Clinton's measures here at all. We have standards, and bodies that are responsible for making sure that they are kept. Clinton's efforts here mostly amout to asking those bodies to take a closer look at the people responsible for adhering to those standards. Again, if your beef is that any standards exist, I think you've chosen the wrong target for your ire today.
 
381Tree
      ID: 9632018
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 19:31
ID Software created the classic game Doom.

i think after Columbine, they sold about a million zillion more games.
 
382Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 19:35
MITH:

"and CCP's post 366:
Then crack down on the retailers and not the game makers.

and CCP's 368:
That's because the laws ALREADY ON THE BOOKS haven't been enforced properly.

You've both got this wrong here. She has in fact proposed that the FTC investigate whether retailers are selling adult material to minors. Finding out if retailers are "not following laws already on the books" is the clear objective of one of her primary proposals. Another proposal is the $5,000 penalty I mentioned above. Why is CCP so critical of measures that are in lockstep with the precise action that he is calling for?"

Then its government for the sake of government isn't it? If Hillary is spending taxpayer dollars to find out that minors are buying the game, isn't that rather dumb considering the undisputed fact that minors are buying the game?

"Also from CCP:
How is it Rockstars fault/problem that Best Buy sells the game to minors?

Show us where Clinton blamed Rockstar for M-rated games getting into the hands of minors."

Would using "Company X" instead of Rockstar make you feel better? The company name is immaterial. Her assault on the videogame industry has and will draw more negative press to Rockstar/ID/Sony/Nintendo than it would to Best Buy or Circuit City.
 
383soxzeitgeist
      ID: 23528248
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 20:32
I love your double standards, cosmo: when engaged with pd your skin is thin to the point of being rice paper ("let's not degenerate the conversation into personal insults) yet when responding to me, the best you can do is engage in ad hominems and name calling; ("You are an American hating socialist".) which is hilarious when you consider our records of service to the country - oh wait, that's right - you don't have one, but I hate the country so much I volunteered to serve not once, but twice. *laughing*

You've been dismantled several times in this thread alone, so it's enough to just read and laugh...

 
384Tree
      ID: 9632018
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 20:38
Would using "Company X" instead of Rockstar make you feel better? The company name is immaterial. Her assault on the videogame industry has and will draw more negative press to Rockstar/ID/Sony/Nintendo than it would to Best Buy or Circuit City.

so if kids under 18 were going to theaters and watching porn, you'd be ok with it?
 
386Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 20:55
If Hillary is spending taxpayer dollars to find out that minors are buying the game, isn't that rather dumb considering the undisputed fact that minors are buying the game?

Undisputed? See post 364.

The fact that there are people who question whether this is happening is a compelling enough reason to take a close look at who's right, don't you think? Further, despite my personal phrasing, they're not just looking into whether its being sold to minors. From your link:
She requested the agency to study whether retailers' enforcement policies were adequate to keep adult-rated video games out of the hands of minors.
I think I'll probably always support a study that could turn up information on how much legislation is necessary before putting it in a bill. The more info, the better. Or is information before legislation a bad thing?

Would using "Company X" instead of Rockstar make you feel better? The company name is immaterial. Her assault on the videogame industry...

You keep saying that. I just don't see anything she said as an "assault". When I keep asking you exactly what you mean by that, you don't really answer. She's doing two things: First, she's cracking down on the retailers - something you yourself said should be done. Second, she's checking into whether Rockstar is responsible for explicit sex scenes . Regarding that last one, (a) the ESRB, whom has received only praise from you in this thread, announced that they were doing precisely that a week earlier and (b) THEY WERE RIGHT!

...has and will draw more negative press to Rockstar/ID/Sony/Nintendo than it would to Best Buy or Circuit City.

Well, when you're in the business of peddling graphic and explict material, negative press results in a business boom almost every time. San Andreas has been out, what, a year now? I don't keep up on such things but I'd bet it had been long past its sales peak for many months now, probably since the holidays. Probably not even worth being in production. What are the chances sales aren't way up in the past few weeks?

But anyway, I disagree. If it reports come out that young kids are walking out of Best Buy with GTA (which is what you were saying), the press will have a field day with Best Buy.

Now, reports have come out that GTA is responsible for explicit sex in ts game, and there are some people calling for a recall. While I do believe that measure is excessive and I don't support pressure from the public (and especially government, if that is happening or were to happen), I also believe that Rockstar probably asked for it when they apparently weren't forthcoming with the ratings board in disclosing the content of their game.
 
387Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:01
And apparently, Hillary DOES have some personal experience with GTA at home.
Washington. “Oh Yes! Look at that!” said ex-President Bill Clinton as he tried out the “hot coffee” mods for the controversial video game “Grand Theft Auto”. “Now that’s what I’m talking about!” said Clinton, as he deftly manipulated the joystick. “Woo-hooo! How’d you like a little cream with that?” Clinton ended the game shortly thereafter. “That’s the most bad-ass game I’ve ever played. No wonder Hillary is all up-in-arms. That’s the most fun I’ve had since…well…since a week or two at least. That game is sick! I give it my thumbs up-way up.”

Mr. Clinton tried out the new video game, and the illicit download, at the behest of his wife, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.). Mrs. Clinton has been a vociferous opponent of games such as this, but has never played one herself. “Bill had some time on his hands and he’s always on the computer so I asked him to find the ‘hot coffee’ downloads. Now I can interview him about what really goes on in it. Obviously I can’t play it myself-and I don’t want anyone telling me that I don’t know what I’m talking about.”

:)
 
388Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:09
MITH:

"I think I'll probably always support a study that could turn up information on how much legislation is necessary before putting it in a bill. The more info, the better. Or is information before legislation a bad thing?"

Legislation that will lead to eventual censorship is always a bad thing.

If the retailers upheld the current rating system, this should not be an issue.

"Well, when you're in the business of peddling graphic and explict material, negative press results in a business boom almost every time. San Andreas has been out, what, a year now?"

San Andreas has been a consistent Top 10 seller since its release.

If you're "in the business of peddling graphic and explict material" and it has a mature ratings label on it and people still can't handle it, then too damn bad. It's the United States and if we (the consumer) want rappers with explicit lyrics, violent games, etc. and purchase them legally, we have that right to express ourselves.

"But anyway, I disagree. If it reports come out that young kids are walking out of Best Buy with GTA (which is what you were saying), the press will have a field day with Best Buy."

Do you honestly think Best Buy doesn't carry the game? Where is the criticism of a 100 different stores that sells this to kids?
 
389Tree
      ID: 9632018
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:12
If you're "in the business of peddling graphic and explict material" and it has a mature ratings label on it and people still can't handle it, then too damn bad.

do you advocate pornography having a "mature" label on it, and being accessible to those under the age of 18?
 
390Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:22
Tree:

Would you quit spinning please for God's sake?

You know exactly what cases and situations I'm referring to.

Nowhere in any of my posts did I say that.

Furthermore, I do not define GTA or any of its spinoff titles (San Andreas, Vice City, etc.) as porn.
 
391Tree
      ID: 9632018
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:24
i'm not spinning CCP. you specifically said If you're "in the business of peddling graphic and explict material" and it has a mature ratings label on it and people still can't handle it, then too damn bad.

you are advocating that a video game with x-rated features should be rated for mature audiences, and not adult only audiences.

i am wondering if you feel the way about magazines and movies as well.
 
392Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:37
"you are advocating that a video game with x-rated features should be rated for mature audiences, and not adult only audiences."

For reference...

ESRB Rating Symbols

"MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language"

The sex scene in San Andreas only exists because of a hack and/or hours of tweaking the game.

As far as this specific title is concerned, it is fine, because under normal parental supervision and normal user-intended gameplay the young adult should not see the scene.

In a broader sense, if a game contains openly attainable scenes of explicit and pornographic sexual acts then of course it is for adults.
 
393Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:38
Tree:

Are you for or against censorship in any form?

This is precisely what this will lead to in the long run and you know that.
 
394Tree
      ID: 9632018
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:44
CCP - the game contains openly attainable scenes of explicit oral sex. if a hack is available on the internet, then it's openly attainable.

changing the rating today was the right thing to do.

i am opposed to censorship. i am not opposed to rating systems for those under the age of 18. i'm also not opposed to common sense decisions made by parents.

if i had a child right now, he or she wouldn't be playing GTA. i'm a huge pro wrestling fan, and if i had a child right now, he or she wouldn't be going to live wrestling events either.

some things aren't appropriate for children.
 
395Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:45
Legislation that will lead to eventual censorship is always a bad thing.

You don't mean that, unless you think there is no problem with hard core gay porn on saturday morning network TV.

Anyway, I'd like to know, which specific piece of legislation here is going to lead to censorship? As far as I can tell, the only legislation proposed is exactly what you said shold be done.

San Andreas has been a consistent Top 10 seller since its release.

It doesn't really matter, but I have trouble believeing that before all this, say, in early June, that GTASA was in the top 10 titles sold that week.

If you're "in the business of peddling graphic and explict material" and it has a mature ratings label on it and people still can't handle it, then too damn bad. It's the United States and if we (the consumer) want rappers with explicit lyrics, violent games, etc. and purchase them legally, we have that right to express ourselves.

No argument from me. I own GTASA. I'm not in support of preventing adults from buying this game or one twice as explicit. I still fail to see exactly how cracking down on retailers - something you said we should do, is an assault on the industry that will lead to censorship. I mean, you said it, you said crack down on the retailers and not the game makers.

That's exactly what the proposed legislation is. Nothing more. That's it.

Be honest. Is it that you didn't mean it when you said that we should crack down on the retailers, or is it that you hate Hllary so much that even when she does exactly what you say she should do, you'll say that its wrong? Because one moment you say that its exactly what should be done and the next you say that it is an awful iea that will lead to censorship.

Seriously, the moment I started pressing you for specifics, your argument became difficult to pin down. The more I've pressed the maleable you've become. Right now its something about notions of sinister intent that you have no proof of and future censorship, tho you cannot explain how these particular measures will lead to it, and something you refer to as "an assult" and as waging war" tho its pretty much just a few measures that you say you support and/or that have already been taken by a board that you only have praise for.

Where is the criticism of a 100 different stores that sells this to kids?

Dude, you were the one who said an investigation into whether the laws were effective is a bad idea. That's the first step. If anything, it took too long, don't you think?

For the record, I do think that a banishment of graphic games or content will likely be proposed and fought strongly for at some point, but (a) I don't believe it will be successful, (b) I don't think that will happen until the religious right picks up the ball and (c) I'm quite certian that if it does happen, it will have happened anyway even if Hillary never took up the issue. The ESRB is what made this thing news when they decided to look into whether Rockstar was responsible for Hot Coffee. It was reported, but the press really didn't make a huge deal over Hillary on this issue the past few weeks, so when the news came out that Rockstar did plant explicit sex in the game, I think the story already had legs without Hillary, anyway.
 
396Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:49
The sex scene in San Andreas only exists because of a hack and/or hours of tweaking the game.

You don't know that. I think, especially after hearing about the PS2 code that its pretty likely that Hot Coffee was built into the PC game for hackers to toy with. In any case, the PS2 code is at least some compelling circumstantial evidence. I wouldn't be so definitive in my statements . Many things you have said in this thread have been proved untrue.
 
397Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 21:54
They dug their own grave. Beta News
July 20, 2005, 9:17 PM
UPDATED The fight over "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" came to a climax on Wednesday as the Parents Television Council called for a recall of the video game and a statement from the game maker seemed to confirm the Hot Coffee mod was indeed not a hack and was present within the game as BetaNews research had uncovered.

RockStar indirectly confirmed this late Monday, issuing a statement saying it was providing a patch to prevent the modification in already purchased titles and would stop selling the current version while it works on a non-modifiable version of the game. Wednesday's developments seem to confirm that the scenes depicted within the game were indeed created by the game manufacturer.

Effective immediately, the ESRB has changed the rating of the current version of the game to "AO" for adults only, and would provide stickers to retailers wishing to continue selling the current version. The updated version would retain the original "M" for mature rating. It is not immediately clear how the change would affect its availability.

Earlier Wednesday, BetaNews published research that found the chances of the modification being some kind of hack produced by someone not related with the game are slim at best, contradicting earlier statements by the game maker. Researchers were able to locate codes that open up the same scenes on both Xbox and PlayStation 2.

The discovery indicated that the scenes were likely produced by Rockstar itself, at it is practically impossible for the code of an Xbox or PS2 game to be altered unlike PC games. It also questioned how truthful and forthcoming Rockstar Games had been over the origins of the Hot Coffee mod.

"Take-Two and Rockstar Games have always worked to keep mature-themed video game content out of the hands of children and we will continue to work closely with the ESRB and community leaders to improve and better promote a reliable rating system to help consumers make informed choices about which video games are appropriate for each individual," Paul Eibeler, Take-Two's President and Chief Executive Officer said in a statement.
I do think that article is getting ahead of itself by saying that Rockstar's statement on Monday was a confirmation. But clearly it is long past time to stop claiming outright that Rockstar isn't responsible. At this point I'd really be surprised if they're not.
 
398Tree
      ID: 9632018
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 22:28
CCP - the game contains openly attainable scenes of explicit oral sex. if a hack is available on the internet, then it's openly attainable.

changing the rating today was the right thing to do.

i am opposed to censorship. i am not opposed to rating systems for those under the age of 18. i'm also not opposed to common sense decisions made by parents.

if i had a child right now, he or she wouldn't be playing GTA. i'm a huge pro wrestling fan, and if i had a child right now, he or she wouldn't be going to live wrestling events either.

some things aren't appropriate for children.
 
399Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 22:46
What's "id software"? And what happened to it after Columbine?

Harris and Klebold designed levels for Doom (produced by id software); id software subsequently was sued for damages. The case was eventually tossed, IIRC, but not after the damage to id was done.

You and Hillary want to give established and well-funded companies like Microsoft even more power to slam the little guy. You yourself said that the difficulty of kids getting access is irrelevant to the case, so why are you defending a politician trying to increase the difficulty of kids getting access? How can you deny that this won't have bigger ramifications?

some things aren't appropriate for children.

Well, duh. What the heck does that have to do with this case?
 
400Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 23:00
Nevermind, I just heard this conversation in best buy:

Betsy: Hey, Ann! Have you seen this game? Grand Theft Auto? I was thinking about buying it for my junior, what'd'ya think?

Ann: Hmm. "Five years ago Carl Johnson escaped from the pressures of life in Los Santos, San Andreas... a city tearing itself apart with gang trouble, drugs and corruption. Where filmstars and millionaires do their best to avoid the dealers and gangbangers.

Now, it's the early 90s. Carl's got to go home. His mother has been murdered, his family has fallen apart and his childhood friends are all heading towards disaster."

A woman suggestively licking her lips on the cover, gang-bangers, drugs, corruption. Looks like he'd have fun with it!

Besty: Ok ...

[in comes Super Hillary to the Rescue]

Super Hillary: Wait! This game is not just about innocent little grand theft, homicides, criminal activity, gang-banging, drug running! Noooo! If your kids runs through a certain laundry list of tasks, a cartoon character will have its head bob-up-and-down in front of him on screen!

Betsy: No way!

Ann: Oh my goodness, Betsy, what did we almost do! And here I thought it was only about simulated crime activities!

Hillary: Never fear! I'm working to get this game rated "AO"!

Betsy: Oh, Hillary, how can we ever repay you! If I would have seen an "AO" instead of an "M", I never would have considered buying this gang-banging video game for innocent little junior!

Hillary: Don't worry! When there are cartoon characters doing oral, I (or my husband) will be there! We shall protect you! Never fear, the government is here!
 
401Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 23:02
You and Hillary want to give established and well-funded companies like Microsoft even more power to slam the little guy.

How, by going after retailers who sell the stuff to minors? Big companies make adult games, too.

You yourself said that the difficulty of kids getting access is irrelevant to the case, so why are you defending a politician trying to increase the difficulty of kids getting access?

Difficulty of kids getting access to GTA, specifically, is irrelevant. But (a) the while issue of the sex scene in GTA is wholly irrelevant to the issue of retailers selling adult material to minors and (b) that hidden explicit content in GTA makes it clear that explicit content of any level can be hidden in any game to fool ESRB into giving a game a less senstive rating than it should have.

How can you deny that this won't have bigger ramifications?

That what won't have bigger ramifications? See my last paragraph in 395.
 
402Tree
      ID: 9632018
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 23:05
i love how this is just another excuse to bash hilary. if any of the american taliban like bush, delay, frist and their ilk had proposed such a thing, you all would be praising them like nobody's business.
 
403Tree
      ID: 9632018
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 23:33
i love how this is just another excuse to bash hilary. if any of the american taliban like bush, delay, frist and their ilk had proposed such a thing, you all would be praising them like nobody's business.
 
404Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 23:42
That what won't have bigger ramifications? See my last paragraph in 395.

Caving into our puritan instincts to increase governmental interference in this situation.

Just a few ...

*ESRB review will now take longer and be more expensive,
*Game competitors will be more apt to challenge other, successful games (note that this has reduced GTA's sales estimates already)
*product innovation will become more costly

Just to name a few.

And to say that this is "explicit" sex is a bit much. screenshot and here.

No, I wouldn't want my 17 year old doing that. But of all the things a 17 year old could be doing, moving around cartoon characters like that isn't going to be the biggest of my concerns.
 
405Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 23:44
Ah, crap. I just modded Guru's forum. I'm gonna call the ESRB; this thread should now be rated "AO".
 
406Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 06:58
No link found yet, but I'm watching Fox News and on their news scroll they are announcing that Wal-Mart, Target, and Best Buy are pulling GTA: San Andreas from their selves.

The beginning of censorship. Now even I can't buy the game and I'm of perfect legal age to do so.
 
407Tree
      ID: 9632018
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 07:11
1. CCP - let the stores know your feelings. write Wal-Mart, Target, and Best Buy and tell them you won't be buying anything at their stores.

2. Write the various groups who were involved in this, if you consider it an outrage - from Hilary Clinton to the conservative- and christian-leaning groups.

3. most of all, follow through with your threats in regards to the big stores. don't shop there. support your small, local, independent retailer. they need your business more than those b*stards at the big box stores do.

if you feel as strongly about it as you seem to in this thread, then you'll take action.
 
408Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 186252011
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 09:31
Madman, post 400 is a serious dropoff from the bulk of your previous work here. If you want your satire to reflect reality, replace "Super Hillary" with "Super ESRB".

In a satire that much better reflects reality, Hillary hands a $5,000 fine to the retailer after he sells GTASA to a bunch of 12 year-olds. Super Madman swoops in and bitch-slaps her, snatches and tears up the fine and tells the retailer to return to his business ("I think the 12 year-old went that way, wink wink").

Post 404:
ESRB review will now take longer and be more expensive

I don't know why this would be a bad thing, but in any case, I don't believe it's true. ESRB apparently completed its review before I posted 397.

Game competitors will be more apt to challenge other, successful games (note that this has reduced GTA's sales estimates already)

Please show me where GTA's sales estimates have been reduced because of challenges from competetors.

I'm all for keeping pressure on ESRB to keep their ratings as accurate as possible.

And to say that this is "explicit" sex is a bit much.

You're entitled to your opinion, but controling the motions of a video game character as he engages in intercourse, trying to "keep the rhythm" is explicit enough for me to warrant a rating that reflects that the game includes graphic sexual contentent.

CCP
No link found yet, but I'm watching Fox News and on their news scroll they are announcing that Wal-Mart, Target, and Best Buy are pulling GTA: San Andreas from their selves.

Like I said GTA dug their own grave by hiding content in the game that they knew warranted a stricter rating than they want the game to receive. Deceptiopn deserves repurcussions. But blaming Hillary Clinton is dishonest. Its the ESRB that looked into the probnlem, ESRB that acknowledged it when it was found and ESRB that took the appropriate action based on the ratings system already in place - WHICH YOU ARE ON THE RECORD AS FULLY SUPPORTING.

The beginning of censorship.

From you at this point, that sentence doesn't have any meaning any more. What kind of censorship? How do Hillary's actions lead to any censorship that wouldn't have happened anyway? I keep asking this, and your inability to offer a hard answer (that isn't total BS) is telling that you really just don't have a point here.

Now even I can't buy the game and I'm of perfect legal age to do so.

Sure you can. I know for a fact that you have internet access. So for you, problem solved. But anyway, I don't see much priority of protecting consumers' easy access to explicit material in mainstream stores. If there's a market for this stuff (and we know there is), then retailers who deal in adult material will put it on their shelves, and now they'll be able to profit from it because the big corporate stores no longer carry the product. Good for them!
 
409Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 186252011
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 10:55
By the way, re post 404, despite Madman's screen shots, a coworker just informed me that he has seen video of the hot coffee mod and it is indeed explict sex, by any standard. Full frontal nudity, genetalia, etc. One of Madman's links in post 404 does include video of Hot Coffee, though I wasn't able to download it here at work.
 
410Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 11:18
I've heard the same. Cartoon porn. But who are we to censor anything, eh?
 
411Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 15:38
MITH 409 -- By the way, re post 404, despite Madman's screen shots, a coworker just informed me that he has seen video of the hot coffee mod and it is indeed explict sex, by any standard. Full frontal nudity, genetalia, etc.

Your co-worker's knowledge trumps your link in 333? Although players can change the camera angle with the circle button, as well as cycle though three sexual positions with the square button, no genitalia are ever seen. ... Given that the minigame is about as raunchy as an episode of Sex and the City, cannot be accessed without entering a long string of cheat codes, and takes several hours of effort to access, charges that San Andreas is "pornographic" may seem extreme to some.

If you want your satire to reflect reality, replace "Super Hillary" with "Super ESRB".

Hillary is the one calling for the FTC investigation, and was clearly planted on the side that pushed ESRB to re-rate the game.

I don't know why this would be a bad thing, but in any case, I don't believe it's true. ESRB apparently completed its review before I posted 397.

So, in this case, the ESRB investigation took MONTHS, and required non-ESRB related persons to find the mods. The fact that the ESRB finally found the mod after the public TOLD THEM how to find it hardly serves as a counter-example to my argument that ESRB investigations will, from here on out, have to be more thorough and more detailed and therefore take more resources to complete. This time, of course, the ESRB got a free ride, but the aggregate time spent to find the mod were surely huge.

Please show me where GTA's sales estimates have been reduced because of challenges from competetors. In this case, the challenge was public -- we don't know who first popularized the mods. Regardless, the downgrade in their sales estimate has been made public; I can find a link if you really question this.

You're entitled to your opinion

I'm entitled to it, but I can't parent based upon it. Great, what a wonderfully free country.

Like I said GTA dug their own grave by hiding content in the game ... Deceptiopn deserves repurcussions. So it would have been better if they had made it easier to access? What sort of logic is that?
 
412Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 15:41
Like I said GTA dug their own grave by hiding content in the game ... Deceptiopn deserves repurcussions. So it would have been better if they had made it easier to access? What sort of logic is that?

or it would have been easier to:
1. let the ratings board know the content was in there, inside of skirting around it.
2. not have the content in there.
 
413Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 186252011
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 16:14
Your co-worker's knowledge trumps your link in 333?

They're talking about two seperate things. My coworker - and you - were referring to the "Hot Coffee" download for the PC game. The link in 333 refers to a code entered into the PS2 versions of the game. So maybe the PS2 version isn't as explicit as the PC and possibly XBOX versions. There are several other possible reasons for the discrepency. My coworker may have lied (tho I can't think of any reason for him to lie to me), the people at gamespot.com may not have completed the scene before reporting. Maybe they didn't use it under the right conditions to unlock the more explicit material. Or perhaps there is more than one code to unlock various sex scenes in these games.

Hillary is the one calling for the FTC investigation, and was clearly planted on the side that pushed ESRB to re-rate the game.

I tend to think that the greatest factor in pushing ESRB to change the rating are the rating standards, themselves and hopefully, ESRB's committment to accurately applying those standards. Lets see;
1. ESRB publicly looks into whether the game contains explicit content that warrants a stricter rating - a week before Hillary has anything to sasy about the topic.
2. Explicit content that warrants a stricter rating is found to be built into the game.
3. ESRB changes the rating to accurately reflect the game's content.

Your arguments are that (a) this is a bad thing and (b) this is Hillary Clinton's fault. Please. Now you claim to not only read her mind, but also to know that the ESRB aren't committed to their responsibilities.

I'm entitled to it, but I can't parent based upon it. Great, what a wonderfully free country.

If that's true, I'll point out that I've never heard you complain that you aren't free to parent based on an opinion that hard core pornographic movies are acceptable entertainment material for kids. So why is this issue any different?

I guess if "Back Door Babes 9" had originally been misrated with an 'R' rating, you'd argue that the ratings board shouldn't change it?

So it would have been better if they had made it easier to access?

It would have been better if they had been forthcoming in disclosing the content of their game so that the ESRB was able to accurately rate it according to their system. If Rockstar had done that in the first place, I wouldn't give a lick about how accessable the sex scene(s) are. I am shocked that you are defending Rockstar's obvious attempt to dupe ESRB into giving the game a less stringent rating than it deserved.
 
414Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 16:30
If that's true, I'll point out that I've never heard you complain that you aren't free to parent based on an opinion that hard core pornographic movies are acceptable entertainment material for kids. So why is this issue any different?

various responses from CCP on this matter:

Would you quit spinning please for God's sake?

You know exactly what cases and situations I'm referring to.


 
415Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 186252011
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 16:40
If there was any truth to CCP's argument that comparing GTA to hard porn was spin, it fell to the wayside when we learned that GTA was respoonsible for the content.

I do have a question for him though. His insistance that GTA wasn't responsible for the sex scenes was clearly essential to his position, given how often he cited that contention as a response to various points brought against him. But he's been so ambiguous that it is impossible to say exactly how.

So, CCP, exactly how has your perspective of this issue changed now that we know that Rockstar planted explicit sex in Grand Theft Auto?
 
416Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 16:43
They're talking about two seperate things.

This is the only conclusion I can come to, as well. At this point, I think we can make some tentative conclusions.

1) The original programming included simulated sex, likely along the lines of the images in 404, or as discussed in the article from 333.

2) Given the difficulty of getting into that area, it seems likely that Rockstar made an executive decision to "disable" that code prior to shipping, but obviously they didn't do it completely.

3) Subsequently, private hackers created PC mods with altered "skins" or such, providing increased graphical realism. This has been done for many games, perhaps most famously for the Sims.

These more extreme mods are probably for the PC version only. (However, people like my brother-in-law, who has installed multiple distinct operating systems onto his "X-Box" (I put X-box in quotes, because it, in reality, has morphed into some sort of beast), may have created similar mods for the X-Box.)

4) The FTC has now re-rated the game AO. Wal-Mart and many other retailers are pulling it from shelves. I heard this the radio a few minutes ago. Further, one woman said that all sales were discontinuing until they could burn new code and/or print new stickers to put on the boxes. So much for the "no effect on adult" meme.

I'll point out that I've never heard you complain that you aren't free to parent based on an opinion that hard core pornographic movies are acceptable entertainment material for kids. So why is this issue any different?

I will take this opportunity to point out that you have never fairly articulated my position.

It is very simple. (a) private hackers creating graphic mods for silly games entitled "Grand Theft Auto" present absolutely no threat to the ability of parents to parent. To whit: if you can't recognize that "GTA" requires a maturity to play by looking at the boxcover as-is, you've got much bigger problems. If seeing some cartoon characters simulating sex destroys the mind of your 17 year-old, his mind had already been destroyed. (b) holding game manufacturers responsible for code that was functionally disabled or later morphed is fraught with danger, costs, and abuses. (c) Government designed to prevent morons from harming themselves will generally only end up limiting the freedoms of those who are not morons and who are not otherwise going to harm themselves.

Given the correctable facts (1)-(3), I disagree than an "M" rating is insufficient. Rockstar's programmed material is less graphic than many R-rated movies, and it appears to have been buried very deep into the game, possibly even so far as to have been discovered only unintentionally.
 
417Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 16:49
So, CCP, exactly how has your perspective of this issue changed now that we know that Rockstar planted explicit sex in Grand Theft Auto?

Just to be clear, I will explicitly state that I haven't seen this demonstrated.

I will accept that someone has created an X-rated PC mod. This is a common feature of virtually ANY human-sim game, including the Sims. I yet to see any evidence that Rockstar did this, however, or that it was part of the original game design.
 
418Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 16:49
I should have said that virtually any human-sim game is *vulnerable* to X-rated modding on the PC, not that virtually all of them have been modded in that way.
 
419Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 16:53
2) Given the difficulty of getting into that area, it seems likely that Rockstar made an executive decision to "disable" that code prior to shipping, but obviously they didn't do it completely.

3) Subsequently, private hackers created PC mods with altered "skins" or such, providing increased graphical realism. This has been done for many games, perhaps most famously for the Sims


these are mistaken points. it's no secret that programmers apply mods fairly often to popular games. previous incarnations of GTA were modded. Half-Life continues to be popular because of mods.

the mods didn't change any current code, they just opened it up...
 
420Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 17:02
Tree 419 -- Your point is non-responsive to my points (2) and (3). The simplest and most straightforward explanation seems to be that the sex as depicted in 404 *was* programmed in, but then Rockstar thought they disabled it. Subsequent "mods", perhaps to the "clothing" worn during the acts were created, giving the appearance of explicit sex.

It is *very* common for game manufacturers to disable features in games rather than stripping out the code. Stripping code -- especially at the last minute -- can be destabilizing.

Of course, if Rockstar did try to disable the code, the new standard as advocated by MITH appears to be that this remedy is insufficient, requiring companies like Rockstar to go to the effort of completely stripping out the actual code. This will increase the cost of development for all games, and/or increase the costs to the ESRB as they now have to examine the code itself rather than just examine the elements that have not been disabled.
 
421Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 186252011
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 17:15
They're talking about two seperate things.

This is the only conclusion I can come to, as well.


I don't know why its so difficult for you to believe that Rockstar may have knowingly hid the sex scenes in the game and decided not to dosclose that content to ensure an M rating that would keep their product in the mainstream corporate stores. To me, that looks like the most likely explanation. And if I'm right, that tosses much of the logic in post 416.

I might be willing to consider the possibility of some of your conclusions, but not accept any of them as conclusions. The PS2 player enters a code using the joystick (something like: left, left, square, up, triange, circle, circle, down, down, right) that must be entered in the correct sequence and with the correct timing. Clearly, its planted there, intended to be accessed. There are many similar features built into games that can be accessed this way with codes. You can use them to do things like make the character invincible, equip them with weapons or vehicles that you might or might not be able to obtain in regular game play. None of that stuff is in the by accident.

My response to your articulated position is that I believe parents have a right to know about the content of their kids' entertainment media. I think parents should have to right to supply their kids with porn, but not gratuitous violence, or the reverse, if they want. It seems plain to me that the more explicit the material, the more important it is for parents to know exactly what the content is.

If I have time tonight, I'll see if I can access the sex scene on my PS2 game at home and I'll report what I find and how easy it is for me to get to the scene. I've owned the game since the holidays but I've never opened it. 100% of my experience with these types of games in the last 5 years or so (role playing games is the category, I believe) is maybe 1/5 to 1/3 completion of the previous installment of GTA, Vice City. Perhaps 30 to 50 total hours and I haven't played that game or any others like it in over a year. The average 9 year-old gamer is far more adept than me. Hopefully I'll have some time and we'll see if I can do it before bedtime.
 
422Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 186252011
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 17:20
Anybody know where I can get the PS2 codes? CCP?
 
423Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 17:39
the scenes in question?

this link was just emailed to me by a friend i trust. i have yet to view it, as i'm currently at work, but apparently, these are the scenes in question, and not just screenshots.
 
424Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 186252011
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 17:44
Nevermind, here it is at GTA-SANANDEAS.COM.

Anyone know what this means:
JD3N-EV68-AGRW0
4PMG-6VNA-PBZQ7
BKR1-JF84-6Q23C
U7Q0-6H91-6JATX
5540-HY63-181MY
7FB5-3052-PWB8N
03AH-5PBC-9K2T7

Madman take a look at that list and tell me again that these things you access with cheat codes were inadvertantly left in the game.
 
425Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 18:25
Tree 423 -- I will note that you are apparently linking to the PC version which requires a downloadable mod that edits Rockstar's code.

MITH -- Those seem to be NTSC Action Replay Max codes. I've already yielded the point that the code is in the game. I am merely asserting that it is disabled in t he course of ordinary gameplay. If the only way to access those scenes is through AR Max, then I believe my point is made in spades.
 
427Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 18:32
MITH:

You don't sound like someone that plays a lot of games so don't get all bent out of shape if you feel I'm talking down to you.

Mods have been around as long as the gaming industry. The first mods I can recall involved the original Doom game by ID Software probably a decade ago.

Gaming companies have no control over the existence of mods. Ask anyone who has played the original Quake and they'll tell you that mods actually made it at least 2x better.

"What kind of censorship? How do Hillary's actions lead to any censorship that wouldn't have happened anyway?"

Without Hillary's grandstanding, that game is still for sale at Best Buy for those gamers who can legally purchase it. Today, it is gone. That is censorship.

"So, CCP, exactly how has your perspective of this issue changed now that we know that Rockstar planted explicit sex in Grand Theft Auto?"

It is the mod that turns a highly suggestive scene into an inappropriate one. I don't blame Rockstar one iota. I blame the person who created the mod and the code to unlock it.

Rockstar buried this material into the game and it takes hours to unlock it.

Have you yet addressed the topic of parental supervision MITH? Where are the parents at the store and the room in the house where junior plays? Do they play any culpable role in this or do we just wash our hands of them?

"Anyone know what this means:
JD3N-EV68-AGRW0
4PMG-6VNA-PBZQ7
BKR1-JF84-6Q23C
U7Q0-6H91-6JATX
5540-HY63-181MY
7FB5-3052-PWB8N
03AH-5PBC-9K2T7"

Those appear to be GameShark codes. A Game Shark is a third party piece of hardware and software designed to unlock things hidden in the code of a game that would otherwise be unattainable during the intended use.

Game Sharks are primarily used to obtain cheat codes like unlimited ammo, invincibility, etc.

It appears that to enter this code you not only need a code, you need to buy a piece of hardware that goes for $30 (that's what mine cost four years ago). Again I ask, where is junior getting the money?
 
430Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 18:44
I think the 4 hex characters - 4 chars - 5 characters is a feature of ARMax instead of Gameshark, but the difference is immaterial; CCP could be right, and I'm sure there ARE Gameshark codes for the Hot Coffee scene if those aren't them.

The bottom line is that Gameshark and ARMax and other 3rd party add-ons distort the game manufacturer's original product. The resulting program is something that the GTA authors did not intend.

Now, of course, AR Max ALSO provides ways to get cheat codes that ARE allowed by the game. It's for this reason I haven't said that we can be 100% certain that the Hot Coffee scenes are not in any iteration of the game in any fashion, which is why I was trying to be cautious stating finding #2 in post 416.
 
431Boldwin
      ID: 47611911
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 19:01
Distort nothing. They unlock what the game designers intended enuff to bother to develope code for.

You are really ignoring that giant wink they are making when they don't actually make the easter egg easy to find. This stuff has been going on since almost the beginning of gaming and is just a promotional trick they use to prolong buzz about the game. Easter eggs are hidden intentionally to be found. Thus the name.
 
432Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 19:31
CCP

Gaming companies have no control over the existence of mods.

If you're saying that Rockstar diodn't put the sex scenes in GTA, you're wrong. That much is plain and obvious enough to any dolt now. If your point is something else, its irrelevant.

Without Hillary's grandstanding, that game is still for sale at Best Buy for those gamers who can legally purchase it.

I don't believe there is anyone here who would believe this, except, apparently (sadly) madman.

Again, from my post 413:

Lets see;
1. ESRB publicly looks into whether the game contains explicit content that warrants a stricter rating - a week before Hillary has anything to say about the topic.
2. Explicit content that warrants a stricter rating is found to be built into the game.
3. ESRB changes the rating to accurately reflect the game's content.

Your arguments are that (a) this is a bad thing and (b) this is Hillary Clinton's fault. Please. Now you claim to not only read her mind, but also to know that the ESRB aren't committed to their responsibilities.

Today, it is gone. That is censorship.

Your definition of censorship is as fluid as every other aspect of your argument.

I blame the person who created the mod and the code to unlock it.

Rockstar buried this material into the game and it takes hours to unlock it.


Let me get this straught. You think someone - other than Rockstar - created the sex scene(s) while GTASA was still in the production stages and that Rockstar chose to include that content in the game?? And this somehow releases Rockstar of any responsibility for including the a sex scene in its game???

Have you yet addressed the topic of parental supervision MITH?

Indeed I have. My points have sufficiently addressed the issue that parents are not able to keep a leash on their kids and they therefore cannot accompany them to the store or mall every time they go to buy video games. Like YOU said, crack down on the retailers. You have flip flopped on this topic.

Do they play any culpable role in this or do we just wash our hands of them?

My opinion is that parents are ultimately responsible for what they allow their kids to have access to. What you refuse to acknowledge is that (a) kids don't always do what they're told, meaning that the retailers need to accept responsibility and (b) parents need help in knowing what material includes content they choose to allow and what material includes content they want to prohibit. Parents should be able to rely on the accuracy of the ESRB ratings. You apparently don't think so, which is another of your flip flops. You were the one who wrote, "The ESRB is not censorship. It is a guide much like that in the movie industry. I take no issue with that guide".

Please address your flip flops. We know that you are going to blame Hillary Clinton for all of this, even though it was in the news long before she was involved. (where was your outrage then - oh yeah you were praising the people investigating whether GTA needed a stricter code, the same people who eventually gave it).
 
433Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 226231714
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 19:55
MITH:

"Gaming companies have no control over the existence of mods.

If you're saying that Rockstar diodn't put the sex scenes in GTA, you're wrong. That much is plain and obvious enough to any dolt now. If your point is something else, its irrelevant."

If you're going to comment on something, try and get at least a novice-level knowledge of it or read the posts in the thread.

A mod is made by a third party. Gaming companies (per my quote) have no control over their existence.

"Without Hillary's grandstanding, that game is still for sale at Best Buy for those gamers who can legally purchase it.

I don't believe there is anyone here who would believe this, except, apparently (sadly) madman."

Without the Hillary inquiry, you think the game would be gone today? You're insane.

"I blame the person who created the mod and the code to unlock it.

Rockstar buried this material into the game and it takes hours to unlock it.

Let me get this straught. You think someone - other than Rockstar - created the sex scene(s) while GTASA was still in the production stages and that Rockstar chose to include that content in the game?? And this somehow releases Rockstar of any responsibility for including the a sex scene in its game???"

That's not what I said. You're spinning. I blame the people who dug out the unintended code, the parents for unsupervising their kids, the retailers for not following the ESRB, and the people who create mods.

"Have you yet addressed the topic of parental supervision MITH?

Indeed I have. My points have sufficiently addressed the issue that parents are not able to keep a leash on their kids and they therefore cannot accompany them to the store or mall every time they go to buy video games. Like YOU said, crack down on the retailers. You have flip flopped on this topic.

Do they play any culpable role in this or do we just wash our hands of them?"

Where have I ever flip flopped on my belief that parents are partly to blame for this? When did I support the parents in any way for being negligent to their kids.

Boldwin: "You are really ignoring that giant wink they are making when they don't actually make the easter egg easy to find. This stuff has been going on since almost the beginning of gaming and is just a promotional trick they use to prolong buzz about the game. Easter eggs are hidden intentionally to be found. Thus the name."

For future reference, what gaming companies do sometimes to make deadline, cost, or to comply with a certain ESRB rating is that they leave scenes "on the cutting room floor". In order to fully extract the code one needs to invest hours upon hours to get it out to delete it before going to print with the game. Therefore, it is exponentially easier to significantly hide the code or garble it such that it will never be used during NORMAL use.

Yes, there is absolute merit to that "wink" theory. I do think Rockstar displayed due diligence by requiring a total purchase of $80 (50 for the game, 30 for the hardware to unlock the scene), and an original rating of Mature.

Where is junior getting the money?

Could Rockstar have handled the PS2/XBox versions better and gone the extra mile to delete the code? Sure they could've. Given past precedent in the industry, they most certainly did their part and more to keep that particular scene out of the hands of kids.

My whole point behind this argument is that I believe this is a first step towards censoring our media especially as it pertains to videogames. I'm 26, why can't I legally walk into Best Buy and buy this game? I could do it yesterday until Hillary had nothing else better to talk about.

The problem in the videogame arena is that what exactly is a manufacturer to do now? The responsibility has to lay with the retailer. A link I mentioned earlier stated that the average gamer is 30 years old, well above even the AO (Adults Only) rating. GTA: San Andreas got that new rating yet WalMart, Target, and Best Buy yanked it from their shelves. That's censorship.

I don't think it should be sold to kids. I wouldn't buy it for my kid. However, I and every gamer above the legal limit (which is the average gamer age, the "target market") should have every right to walk into Best Buy and purchase this.
 
434Boldwin
      ID: 47611911
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 20:05
What I really find hillarious is the meme that 'it takes hours to unlock the code' as if that was a penalty or proves it wasn't meant to be found.

The whole point of these games is to spend hours unlocking all the juicy goodness...wait that didn't come out right.
 
435Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 20:22
Perhaps a review of the ERSB standard would be appropriate here:

Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.

Rockstar's title had violence, prostitution, drugs, gangbanging. For those things it (apparently according to MITH) deserved only an "M" rating.

However, hidden in the huge string of 0001110101010 was a sequence of 010101011110110101000 that you couldn't access from within the game itself. However, it turns out that third party software allows you to access those 010101101010's in a way that the game programmers chose to disable.

And because those third party programs access those previously inaccessible 0101110101001010's in a way that shows cartoon characters simulating sex, and because those 010111010's can be modded (on the PC version) to be made explicit, the game deserves to get yanked off store shelves across the country so that, heaven forbid, games with an "M" on the cover won't be sold, and games with an "AO" will replace it.

This silliness speaks for itself.
 
436Boldwin
      ID: 47611911
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 20:55
Two of my four boys are game addicts. One fancies himself a game designer and in fact once had an invite from a game company to go down to Texas and design games. [The company went broke in the dot.com debacle instead] These guys eat sleep and breathe games and I have absorbed enuff from them to tell you that this easter egg was intended to be found and to please an audience.

You can debate censorship till the cows come home but easter eggs is easter eggs, people. C'mon don't kid yourselves.
 
437Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 20:56
A mod is made by a third party. Gaming companies (per my quote) have no control over their existence.

I'm tired of your playing games. There is an explicit sex scene in the PS2 version of GTA. Its there because Rockstar allows it to be there. If that scene is the same thing as the "mod" that you are talking about, then your claim that the mod was put there by a 3rd party is simply wrong. If the mod you're talking about is some other thing, whatever it is, it's irrelevant.

Without the Hillary inquiry, you think the game would be gone today? You're insane.

Look, here's the ESRB rating guide. I'm sure you've seen it. In fact, you are on record as saying "I take no issue with that guide"
MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language.

ADULTS ONLY
Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.
We know that there is graphic sexual content and nudity in the game. Ergo, the game deserves the rating that includes graphic sexual content and nudity under its heading. Instructions for things don't ever really get any more simple than that.

Best Buy and other mainstream corporate chain stores that sell video games don't sell AO games. Still with me, right?

My opinion is that I have seen no reason to thaink that ESRB is incompetant and I'm reasonably confident that they are fully dedicated to accurately rating video games - according to the system you endorse.

But if you insist that the ESRB would not have acted if not for her prompting, then your only logical position can that ESRB is not competant and cannot be depended on to accurately carry out the importantant task they are trusted with. As much as I like Senator Clinton's actions here, I'm not quite ready to credit her with finally getting the game rated properly. But if you are right, hopefully the FTC study will reflect this and the ESRB will clean up their act and start applying the rating system - that you endorse - according to the way it is written.

I blame the people who dug out the unintended code

Even Rockstar hasn't claimed the code in PS2 was "unintended". Where'd you get that?

the parents for unsupervising their kids

No argument, but what can you do about that except for tryng to keep them as informed as possible? That's why ratings shoud be accurate.

the retailers for not following the ESRB

Flop. Then why do you argue that it is wrong to ask the FTC to take a look.

Where have I ever flip flopped on my belief that parents are partly to blame for this?

I'll give you he benefit of the doubt and assume you just misunderstand me. I was talking about the retailers. One minute you say we need to crack down on them. The next you say that looking into what practices are taking place and where and heavier fines for those who sell adult stuff to minors are bad ideas that lead to censorship. Then you tell me that you blame the retailers who sell the stuff to kids. Then you called ME insane.

I'm 26, why can't I legally walk into Best Buy and buy this game?

Because it has an accurately applied AO rating - according to the system you endorse - and Best Buy, a private business with ever right to sell or not sell whatever it wants, chooses not to sell AO rated games.
 
438Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 21:00
I'm tired of your playing games. There is an explicit sex scene in the PS2 version of GTA. Its there because Rockstar allows it to be there. If that scene is the same thing as the "mod" that you are talking about, then your claim that the mod was put there by a 3rd party is simply wrong.

Ok, MITH. You have GTA? Play it and get the sex scene. Prove it & do it without the use of a purchased 3rd party mod.
 
439Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 21:02
As much as I like Senator Clinton's actions here, I'm not quite ready to credit her with finally getting the game rated properly.

Dozens of other games have had similar mods done to them. Suddenly, within days of her appeal to the FTC, action was taken. Joy, joy. Feel free to give her credit. This is where the statist left meets the religious right in a harmonious desire to manipulate people's lives.
 
440Tree
      ID: 31642120
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 21:12
it appears to me that what CCP and Madman are both saying is that if you lie, and hide the fact that there is explicit sex in your video game, it is perfectly acceptable, and there should be no reprecussions.

the rating systems are there for a reason, and this wouldn't be an issue if rockstargames had been honest in the first place.

yes, i do think that this is a very minor issue in light of the atrocities committed by Bush and his American Taliban, and it is taking away the current more important issue at hand involving Karl Rove, but hey, so be it.
 
441Tree
      ID: 31642120
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 21:13
it appears to me that what CCP and Madman are both saying is that if you lie, and hide the fact that there is explicit sex in your video game, it is perfectly acceptable, and there should be no reprecussions.

the rating systems are there for a reason, and this wouldn't be an issue if rockstargames had been honest in the first place.

yes, i do think that this is a very minor issue in light of the atrocities committed by Bush and his American Taliban, and it is taking away the current more important issue at hand involving Karl Rove, but hey, so be it.
 
442Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 21:45
Tree -- "Madman is saying that explicit sex in video games is there for a reason."

No, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying. And I'm holding you responsible for that, BTW.

(note: the aforementioned quote was a "modded" version of post 441; my mod takes pre-existing words and re-arranges them in a way to provide entertainment in a way other than what was intended by the author.)
 
443Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 23:00
Maybe your right that it requires a gameshark to access it, but I keep reading reports that say things like:
Since the PS2 version comes on an unmoddable DVD, it cannot have any content added to it, which means the code to the sexually explicit scene was, indeed, on the manufactured discs. Yes, it requires a lengthy cheat to unlock (or a mod to download), but it does seem as though Rockstar lied to Gamespot (or was very slick with its wording), and misled the ESRB.
But assuming for the moment that you're right about the need for a gameshark to see it, what makes you think that it is the mod that makes the scene look like cartoon characters simulating sex or that makes it explicit? It seems much more likely that the scenes are produced by Rockstar as you see them, and the gameshark code simply unlocks them.

Apparently the antihero has several dfferent girlfriends that he can have sex with. How do you know that some accessable scenes aren't just more explicit than others? The girl in your screenshot looked different from the one in tree's link. Further, there were various hot coffee codes, including 'hot coffee', 'uncensored hot coffee' and 'censored hot coffee".
 
444Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Fri, Jul 22, 2005, 00:29
MITH -- On the PS2, I suspect that your interpretation is correct; the code was on the disc and the mods give you access to it. I don't believe I have said anything different, at least not in the last 100 posts ;). But this sort of thing is in ALL software, whether you believe it or not. I assume you've flown the flight simulator in Excel? And that feature, of course, wasn't disabled. Forcing game producers to parse through all code fragments to make sure mods can't unlock them is crazy. There is a user agreement for a reason.

However, the descriptions I've read of the PS2 "unlocked" simulated scenes are tamer than some of the newer "Hot Coffee" mods for the PC. Given independent knowledge of how PC mods come about and their history in other games and after seeing what my b-in-law did to his X-box (I shouldn't even call it that anymore), I see no reason to believe that Rockstar is responsible for the graphic content on PC-based mods. I would be shocked if GTA did NOT have nude-skin mods for the PC; that coupled with knowledge of the scene mod discussed here would explain all the known facts.

I do not *know* what all the scenes in the PS2 look like, but it's the simplest story that explains an awful lot. At this time, I stand by my conclusions in 416.

The point is that the code was most likely disabled, and seriously so. Perhaps this was an easter egg waiting to be exploited on purpose; dunno. Given other modding that happens on PC games like this, I don't exactly see the point or danger of it. If you are concerned about this sort of thing, buy PS2/Xbox games and don't let your kids play around with mods. Problem avoided (well, if you ignore the prostitution, gang-banging, etc., in the game already). Rating or not rating this particular game is irrelevant to the problem of modded games and kids being exposed to things via mods that some parents don't want their kids to be exposed to.
 
445Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Fri, Jul 22, 2005, 07:30
The nature of the hidden material is that it gets found and it gets dug out. I assume that the current ratings system has been in effect since before the San Andreas software went into production. Its clear to me that even the screenshot that you found warrants an AO rating and that Rockstar knew this as that material was being produced. But they put it in their game anyway. Its no different than if a DVD rated 'R' for violent content included an easter egg that unlocked an X rated scene. Your opinion seems to be that since you thnk that Rockstar's intent may have been to lock out access to the scene (despite their knowledge that locked scenes are always found and unlocked) they are absolved of responsibility for content that they produced and included in their game. My position is much simpler. Its AO material, that material is in the game, the game gets an AO rating.

If this was a case where a 3rd party developed the scene, I'd rethink part of my position. But I find it very hard at this point to believe that Rockstar didn't furnish GTA with what should be an AO rated sex scene and intend for GTA players to find it.
 
446Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Fri, Jul 22, 2005, 09:15
MITH -- well, we seem to just disagree with the facts of the case as well as the appropriate ramifications.

1) Its no different than if a DVD rated 'R' for violent content included an easter egg that unlocked an X rated scene.

You keep saying things like this, yet have provided absolutely ZERO evidence.

A preferable analogy would be something like the old 386 intel chipset. They sold a version with and without a math co-processor, but BOTH versions actually had a math co-processor in them. The one they sold without a math co-processor basically had the co-processor disabled.

If you were ingenious, maybe you could have gotten that co-processor to work by modding your chip. If, subsequently, your "modded" chip performed a calculation error, would Intel have been responsible? Surely not. (note: I think the disabling of the math co-processor may have been fatal, but I do not recall. This is a hypothetical.)

In Rollercoaster Tycoon (the original) the author programmed in peep limits, ride limits, and had disabled rides that were not in the game (I may be thinking of an expansion pack, but again, I'm not arguing these details). If you go into that game -- like some did -- and it ends up fragging your regular game and ruining your saved files, was RCT responsible?

Do we want a rating agency that judges a game not just on its content, but also on content that the game manufacturer has intentionally made unaccessible to regular players? If so, where does the line stop? How do you distinguish between modding that unlocks disabled code versus moding that connects code together in ways that were not intended at stage x of pre-production? Is Rockstar responsible not just for the explicit actions of their characters, but also of the addition of nude skins w/genitalia in the PC mods (if this is what they did)?

Indeed, if the true objective is to protect minors, what possible difference does it make whether or not Rockstar had, at one time, considered including AO-only material? (and I am NOT conceding that the disabled PS2 material is "AO"; I don't know where in the rating fully clothed individuals gyrating together falls; I would certainly argue that such gaming is no worse than many other elements of GTA that only got an "M" rating)

despite their knowledge that locked scenes are always found and unlocked

Well, you certainly have advanced in your knowledge of modding, I can say that. I will have to plead ignorance here on the technical details of modern console gaming and hacks like Action Replay Max or Gameshark. Given how difficult it was to crack games back in the 1990s when I was a very casual amateur on the PC, I would question this assertion. Combing through a game used to take months or years, generally reserved for aficionados. Even then, I am certain that people back in the 90's didn't find "all" disabled portions of code, or even most.

But I would be interested on someone who is involved with cracking today to see how accurate your perspective is. It is probably easier with console gaming today, and especially a series like GTA that is perhaps entirely built around a specific code engine. It would take a technical expert to ascertain just how difficult cracking the code unlocking the disabled scenes were.

Regardless, I don't think it unreasonable to argue that modding gameplay like this takes an increased degree of sophistication, and I think all a game manufacturer should be responsible for is what their program makes access to regular users who obey their user agreements.

And although since my time an above-ground 3rd party market of mods and hacks has popped up, making this very sophisticated gameplay available -- to unwary parents -- young kids who don't know jack about coding, I personally still have no problem separating the ramifications of the modded content from the original author's designs. Just like quoting someone out of content is the problem of the person doing the quoting rather than the person who was quoted.

As an aside, for those parents out there confused as heck, the answer is simple. I would suggest NOT allowing your kids to buy these cheats and mod packages. First, it ruins gameplay (I'm "old school" this way, I guess); wait until the kid gets to high school or later before letting the kid set his own rules and design his own combo games (because, in reality, this is what you are doing when you rely on these sorts of mods). There is an added maturity level required to handle mods and the freedom to design your own rules; the temptation to cheat can undermine fair gameplay which may have an adverse effect on child development (or maybe not). Secondly, you never know what you will find in games. This is just one case in point. If you buy modding programs for your kids, you should realize what you are doing.

Although the most basic argument here is, again, that the title of the game is Grand Theft Auto; even though the scenes in question were apparently made inaccessible to GTA players (without mods), the content of the entire game is clearly "mature" (what a misnomer). Kids and parents have to take responsibility.

If you buy GTA AND mod software for a young kid, I really have zero sympathy for you. If you do all that ON THE PC and put your kid in a position where they play games like this unsupervised, then I think you should take a good, long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

*However*, what good has the government done here? Absolutely zilch. What value-added (to the parent) does even an "M" rating have for a game like "GTA"? If a parent is stupid enough to expose their kids in the manner I described in the previous paragraph, then the rating isn't even a blip on their radar. The rating *change* based upon disabled content will simply increase the cost of future game development and infringe upon legit users, like what is happening today.

And it will help Hillary win the hearts of the religious right ... or at least thaw them a bit more. What she and others are trying to do is to play on parents' fear of technology, and fear of a complicated world. Such a play on emotion and manipulation of ignorance should be viewed with the contempt that it deserves rather than praise.
 
448Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Fri, Jul 22, 2005, 09:30
ESRB Change its ratings Furthermore, the ESRB has changed its ratings standards. Game publishers will be required to submit for board review all relevant content on a disc, even that which is not intended to be accessed. The ESRB also calls on developers and publishers to "proactively protect their games from illegal modifications by third parties."

Ugh.

Also, I just ran across this clarification:

July 9, Boston Globe

Vance said that while the ESRB is investigating the issue, she's inclined to agree with Take 2's take -- that ''Hot Coffee'' is a mod, not an inherent feature of the game. ''He actually had to change underlying code," Vance said of Wildenborg. ''It's not a cheat. It's not an Easter egg."

Of course, the ESRB has now changed its policy, as per the first link.
 
449Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Fri, Jul 22, 2005, 09:42
BTW, if anyone can find actual ESRB news releases online, that would be a value-added post. Not unsurprisingly, a government-supported rating agency is making it very difficult to find out exactly why they are doing what they are doing. I'd prefer to read their actual press releases or findings rather than get it second-hand through news agencies.
 
450Boldwin
      ID: 47611911
      Fri, Jul 22, 2005, 12:14
Madman

I'd ask you if you ever had any intention of writing a book, but that would be redundant.
 
451biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Jul 22, 2005, 13:00
Heh heh.



"You are gazing into the pixels of moral decay"
 
452Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Jul 27, 2005, 08:49
Hillary vs. the Xbox: Game over

I apologize for the copy/pasting, but I want to make sure I don't lose this.

By Steven Johnson, Steven Johnson's "Everything Bad Is Good For You: How Today's Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter" was published by Riverhead Books in May.

Dear Sen. Clinton:

I'm writing to commend you for calling for a $90-million study on the effects of video games on children, and in particular the courageous stand you have taken in recent weeks against the notorious "Grand Theft Auto" series.

I'd like to draw your attention to another game whose nonstop violence and hostility has captured the attention of millions of kids — a game that instills aggressive thoughts in the minds of its players, some of whom have gone on to commit real-world acts of violence and sexual assault after playing.

I'm talking, of course, about high school football.

I know a congressional investigation into football won't play so well with those crucial swing voters, but it makes about as much sense as an investigation into the pressing issue that is Xbox and PlayStation 2.

Your current concern is over explicit sex in "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas." Yet there's not much to investigate, is there? It should get rated appropriately, and that's that. But there's more to your proposed study: You want to examine how video games shape children's values and cognitive development.

Kids have always played games. A hundred years ago they were playing stickball and kick the can; now they're playing "World of Warcraft," "Halo 2" and "Madden 2005." And parents have to drag their kids away from the games to get them to do their algebra homework, but parents have been dragging kids away from whatever the kids were into since the dawn of civilization.

So any sensible investigation into video games must ask the "compared to what" question. If the alternative to playing "Halo 2" is reading "The Portrait of a Lady," then of course "The Portrait of a Lady" is better for you. But it's not as though kids have been reading Henry James for 100 years and then suddenly dropped him for Pokemon.

Another key question: Of all the games that kids play, which ones require the most mental exertion? Parents can play this at home: Try a few rounds of Monopoly or Go Fish with your kids, and see who wins. I suspect most families will find that it's a relatively even match. Then sit down and try to play "Halo 2" with the kids. You'll be lucky if you survive 10 minutes.

The great secret of today's video games that has been lost in the moral panic over "Grand Theft Auto" is how difficult the games have become. That difficulty is not merely a question of hand-eye coordination; most of today's games force kids to learn complex rule systems, master challenging new interfaces, follow dozens of shifting variables in real time and prioritize between multiple objectives.

In short, precisely the sorts of skills that they're going to need in the digital workplace of tomorrow.

Consider this one fascinating trend among teenagers: They're spending less time watching professional sports and more time simulating those sports on Xbox or PlayStation. Now, which activity challenges the mind more — sitting around rooting for the Packers, or managing an entire football franchise through a season of "Madden 2005": calling plays, setting lineups, trading players and negotiating contracts? Which challenges the mind more — zoning out to the lives of fictional characters on a televised soap opera, or actively managing the lives of dozens of virtual characters in a game such as "The Sims"?

On to the issue of aggression, and what causes it in kids, especially teenage boys. Congress should be interested in the facts: The last 10 years have seen the release of many popular violent games, including "Quake" and "Grand Theft Auto"; that period has also seen the most dramatic drop in violent crime in recent memory. According to Duke University's Child Well-Being Index, today's kids are less violent than kids have been at any time since the study began in 1975. Perhaps, Sen. Clinton, your investigation should explore the theory that violent games function as a safety valve, letting children explore their natural aggression without acting it out in the real world.

Many juvenile crimes — such as the carjacking that is so central to "Grand Theft Auto" — are conventionally described as "thrill-seeking" crimes. Isn't it possible that kids no longer need real-world environments to get those thrills, now that the games simulate them so vividly? The national carjacking rate has dropped substantially since "Grand Theft Auto" came out. Isn't it conceivable that the would-be carjackers are now getting their thrills on the screen instead of the street?

Crime statistics are not the only sign that today's gaming generation is doing much better than the generation raised during the last cultural panic — over rock 'n' roll. Math SAT scores have never been higher; verbal scores have been climbing steadily for the last five years; nearly every indicator in the Department of Education study known as the Nation's Report Card is higher now than when the study was implemented in 1971.

By almost every measure, the kids are all right.

Of course, I admit that there's one charge against video games that is a slam dunk. Kids don't get physical exercise when they play a video game, and indeed the rise in obesity among younger people is a serious issue. But, of course, you don't get exercise from doing homework either.
 
453Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Wed, Jul 27, 2005, 08:55
Is this a joke?
 
454Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Wed, Jul 27, 2005, 09:16
Actually, I did hear this gentleman speak on NPR a while back, and I agree with his contention that some things in pop culture today are more intellectually stimulating than their counterparts from even 15 years ago. Shows like the Simpsons draw on more literary and cultural references than a whole week's worth of television in the 60's. Shows like the the Sopranos are like one hour movies every week. Still, I've played three Grand Theft Autos, and it ain't raising SAT scores and it ain't responsible for a decrease in violent crime. I was intrigued and partially agreed with this guy's theory when I first heard it, but if his book is filled with as many specious arguments and leaps of logic as this letter, then I'm glad I haven't read it.
 
455Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Jul 27, 2005, 10:14
Still, I've played three Grand Theft Autos, and it ain't raising SAT scores

How can you be so sure? Remember, the comparison should be to what the children would otherwise do. Further, don't forget the motivation video games provide to (a) hacking, (b) acquiring and perfecting various skills, (c) to interact and affect artifical environments as opposed to passively observing.

Video game experiences are surely as intense intellectually as, for example, playing the piano. They *may* not require the imagination of playing charades, but they almost certainly require just as much if not more cognitive development. Not to mention that games like charades simply aren't as exciting to kids, leading many to idle away their childhoods in a less intense manner. Further, boredom is surely one of the best predictors for mischevious violence and vandalism.

And I'm not suggesting idle time for children is a bad thing overall, but the point at issue is the affect on intelligence and violence. A theory that the regimented and intellectually stimulating environments we provide for our children today enhances measured SAT scores does not seem superficially implausible to me.

Personally speaking, I am quite certain that video games enhanced my intellectual development as a child. The exposure to the logic of coding, the difficulty of thinking as a machine "thinks" were signal events during my elementary school years. And the only reason I had any desire to pursue those things was that I was fascinated by video games and I wanted to "tweak" games that I had come to enjoy. As to violence, I wasn't inclined in that direction and so my intense exposure to violent video games had no noticeable affect ... if someone insisted on drawing a connection, I would then suggest that they helped with self-confidence and aggressiveness -- traits I needed help with at the time.
 
456Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 41645259
      Wed, Jul 27, 2005, 11:10
Video game experiences are surely as intense intellectually as, for example, playing the piano.

Is this really Madman writing this?

The average young child who picks up a controller for the first time will probably need a few hours to pick up the skills necessary to have some success at the basic level of most games and maybe a year or two of avid play to attain the ability to pick up any game and master it in 5 or 10 or 20 hours.

Aside from the fact that it takes the average musician much much longer to develope any comparable levels of skill, learning to play the piano effectively means learning to communicate in another language. If you insist that mastering video games is also an endeavor that can be likened to learning a language, the difference in "intelectual intensity" is quite stark. Basic arithmatic vs advanced trig, I'd suggest.

Madman, I believe that like me, you are in your early 30s. I liked my home video game systems and also arcade games as a kid, too. I'm curious, which "intellectually intense" video games from your childhood "enhanced" your "intellectual development"?

Really, I'm open to the idea that games can be designed to nurture problem-solving and other skills in young kids and that they might even be very effective under the right circumstances or in the right approach. But the idea that Grand Theft Auto and other games built primarily for explicit shock value are serving some greater good is just laughable to me.
 
457Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Wed, Jul 27, 2005, 12:53
A theory that the regimented and intellectually stimulating environments we provide for our children today enhances measured SAT scores does not seem superficially implausible to me.

It does to me. Like I said, I've played three Grand Theft Autos and whole lot of other games, and few, if any, had any appreciable impact on my ability to do algebra or trig. These games aren't the intellectually riveting games you and Johnson make them out to be. You may fool others who have never played them, but I've played and it's because GTA and others are devoid of real intellectual stimulation that they are fun. Americans aren't into doing intellectually stimulating things to relax, which should be evidence enough that GTA is not terribly intellectually stimulating. Johnson does have a point that GTA is far more intellectually stimulating than, say, the original Mario Brothers or Pitfall, but it's far less intellectually stimulating than learning to play the piano, soccer or chess. I find it comical that he tries to slip that argument by people, but it ain't working on people like me who have actually played GTA. GTA does require some thought - enough to make it interesting - but not a whole lot. In fact, I found the game boring after a while (as do a lot of intelligent people). There are video games that are intellectually stimulating. GTA is not one of them. The real fun in GTA is committing unthinkably heinous crimes and seeing how big and intricate the fictious world is. If you think kids are sitting around playing this games for hours on end and then strolling into the cafeteria on Saturday morning to ace the SAT, think again. Johnson seems to throw his hands in the air and say, "Well, if video games didn't cause SAT scores to go up, AND THEY DID GO UP, what did? If you can't answer that in ten seconds or less, it probably is the video games." Specious. That article is terrible.
 
458Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Wed, Jul 27, 2005, 12:56
And hacking a game and playing a game are distinctly different things. I'd say 1 out of every 5,000 people actually hack the game. You won't see me argue that coding isn't intellectually stimulating, but that is certainly not the main intent of video games.

If you want to talk about an intellectually stimulating game that kids are playing, talking Texas Hold 'Em.
 
459Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Jul 27, 2005, 13:22
The average young child who picks up a controller for the first time will probably need a few hours to pick up the skills necessary to have some success at the basic level of most games and maybe a year or two of avid play to attain the ability to pick up any game and master it in 5 or 10 or 20 hours.

I am convinced that the spatial abstraction abilities of the younger generations who grow up with Halo genre 3D engines will surpass the intuition of those of us who played Castle Wolfenstein as a teenager. I never did play very many death-match games, but by the early part of this decade, I realized that kids growing up today were being forced to integrate into their brains pattern recognition and spatial problem solving orders of magnitudes more sophisticated than what my generation had. This has significant ramifications not only for things like measured IQ, but also for dreaming up complicated spatial geometric proofs, solving engineering tasks, etc.

If you insist that mastering video games is also an endeavor that can be likened to learning a language, the difference in "intelectual intensity" is quite stark. I didn't insist on this, you did. But I will go along with it. Computers "speak" binary, one of the most powerful languages on the planet. Having an *intuitive* understanding of the rigorous and unyielding logic of the language of computers is necessary to becoming an expert programmer. Playing video games instinctively provides many opportunities to learn that language. Discovering program bugs and developing workarounds within this framework is old-hat to experienced gamers but can require extremely high levels of skill and knowledge.

I can't speak for GTA, but I haven't yet found a video game devoid of significant problem-solving opportunities on difficulty levels orders of magnitude different than playing the piano. I will yield the point that gaining complete and total mastery of any instrument requires an attenuated sensitivity to the nuances of music. However, I would also suggest that this is lost on 99% of kids learning to play the piano. Most go through life without even realizing the complex variations you can go through, just like most go through life without becoming a peek and poke programmer.

As to my experiences with video games ... geez. There simply isn't enough room to detail the skills and rewards from my video game experiences. I will simply bullet point a TINY few ...
a) Apple II programming ... had short text-based games in Basic that I typed in while in elementary school. Desire to tweak games taught me how to program. This moved onto Pascal, etc., later.
b) Many classic adventure games utilized classical logic problems or IQ test-type questions, referenced Greek mythology, etc. Old classics like Ultima have now morphed into Zelda and other games, but the problem-solving / quest elements seem to remain. Indeed, this is what provides the challenge.
c) baseball simulations. Exactly as discussed in the article linked, my exposure to baseball sims engaged my mind in a much more intense way than simply watching baseball games would have done. I became fascinated with statistics as a result. And it wasn't just the usual "averages" and so forth; because I had a baseball sim, I wanted to comb the history books and compile "optimal" teams. This meant quick pattern recognition in numbers, the ability to concentrate for ungodly periods of time on otherwise mundane and unrewarding tasks (this was before the days of downloadable encyclopedias ... today, a kid like me would develop database and spreadsheet skills at an absurdly early age ... these items repeat themselves today with Madden games and others of that ilk, not to mention the exposure to hacking and sophisticated programming skills that PC-based sims encourage). These sims were also my first experiences with what we could call "randomness" and the law of large numbers. I didn't have those names to put on those concepts then, but they were there nonetheless.

The extreme difficulty that typical adults of older generations have with very basic concepts like that makes me wonder whether or not video games are helping develop entire generations of youth with deep intuitive understanding of concepts that previously could only be explained and passed on through very complicated abstract theory.

d) On to college when I had my first exposure to 3D engines which I could tell taxed my short-term memory and spatial skills (esp. dogfight games). Hacking into games or at least their datafiles, learning computer networking, dealing with hardware and OS issues, etc.

As a general rule, video games train kids on task completion, problem-solving, long-term concentration, and a whole host of eye-hand coordination skills. The intellectual challenges they can and do pose are on par or superior to what we have posed to any prior generation.

When you stop and think about it, the fact that video gamers make better surgeons makes intuitive sense on a whole host of dimensions. And yes, I still think of dimensionality via constructs I developed working on video games many years ago.
 
460Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Jul 27, 2005, 13:37
Razor 457 -- It does to me. Like I said, I've played three Grand Theft Autos and whole lot of other games, and few, if any, had any appreciable impact on my ability to do algebra or trig. These games aren't the intellectually riveting games you and Johnson make them out to be.

The point at issue is the $90m study to analyze the effects of video games on children. His piece isn't about GTA. He's saying that kids are doing better than ever before, and one possible reason for this is the ever-increasing complexity of the video games and other intellectual stimulation that we are exposing them to.
 
461hoops boy
      ID: 226162110
      Wed, Jul 27, 2005, 15:57
Madman, ISTM that the majority of your quality experiences that you credit to videogames have little to do with actually "playing" video games. For you video games were a gateway into other activites that actually were stimulating (hacking code for example), but the actual playing was not apparently not stimulating or you would have not delved into these other activites.

Case in point... somewhere in my youth I got a copy of home run baseball for the atari 2600. That was the crappy baseball games with only three field players and... heres a screenshot . Anyway, playing this game was fun for a (short) while, but it quickly grew boring. To make it interesting, I ended up keeping track of a complete roster for my team computing all sorts of statistics like batting avg, slugging percentage, runs, rbi, etc.. allong with pitching stats (era, so, bb, etc...) and league standings for the rest of the "teams" in the "league". (Note for those who havent played it, the game accetually had no concept of any of this stuff, you basically played the same engine over and over, and it was up to me to decide which team i was playing in any given match) What's even more sad than that was I didnt own a computer, so i did this all on *paper*, in a spiral notebook. Now I am sure that this excerise of turning that crappy little game into a full fledge baseball game certainly was beneficial to me in a lot of ways, but the actual time spent playing the game probably didnt do much for me... heck at times I didnt even want to play, but would just to compile raw data to do the stats on.

Of course now my son is 8 years old and of course he likes to play video games. I try to stick toward good problem solving games when I can, going for platformers like sly cooper, where everything isnt straight ahead just bashing opponents. I also try to stick with games that offer there own level of creativity, for example the Tony Hawk games have things like create your own skaters, your own boards, your own levels, and your own goals. Not only does this add replay value, but more importantly it is an avenue for creativity. I figure if he is making new tricks in Tony Hawk, thats probably better than watching yugioh on tv. I wouldnt feel this way about any game, but certainly some games seem ok. (though I still would rather have him reading a book I think... I did manage to coax him into reading the entire chronicles of narnia this past year, which was pretty cool)
 
462Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Sun, Aug 07, 2005, 08:10
Democrats Raise $80 Million to Fund 'Thinking'

by Scott Ott

(2005-08-07) -- In a novel approach for the Democrat party, a group of left-leaning investors said it has raised $80 million in pledges to fund thinking, in hopes that thought and actual policies might be the secret to victory in coming elections.

The dramatic reversal of strategy comes not from the Democrat National Committee (DNC) itself, but from a group of 80 wealthy progressives who each pledged $1 million in an effort to emulate the conservative think-tanks which have developed during the past three decades.

"People need something to believe in," said one unnamed investor in the new Democracy Alliance. "We Democrats have always believed, but now we're looking for that 'something' -- you know, a concept or principle or idea...whatever that means."

The Democracy Alliance will take on conservative institutions like the Heritage Foundation, the Hoover Institution, the American Enterprise Institute, the Cato Institute, the Leadership Institute and the Young America's Foundation.

The $80 million is only seed money, organizers said, toward an eventual $200 million investment in thinking and policy creation.

"Experts tell us that thought doesn't come cheap," said Alliance chairman Steven Gluckstern, a retired investment banker, "And the progressive movement currently has no line-item in the budget for it. So we need a lot of cash up front to get the ball rolling."

However, a spokesman for the Democrat National Committee expressed concern that "this new so-called thinking strategy might divide the party, and reduce the amount of money available for our TV ads which make people feel bad about Republicans."

"People always run after the latest new thing," said the unnamed DNC spokesman. "But when they find out how difficult thinking really is, we're confident that they'll come back to the DNC." - Scrappleface
 
463Madman
      ID: 11359814
      Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 13:54
hoops 461 -- Madman, ISTM that the majority of your quality experiences that you credit to videogames have little to do with actually "playing" video games.

Perhaps. But the argument *against* video games has even less to do with actually "playing" the video games. Their argument is that violent video games encourages violent behaviors outside of gameplaying, that exposure to "adult" material will transform otherwise innocent 16 year olds into sex-crazed adolescents, etc.

Feel free to disqualify arguments about indirect effects of video games on "real world" behavior, but do so by equally directing your disqualification to both sides. You will find the proponents of censorship without any remaining argument when you do so.

And I support you in your described philosophy of video game monitoring/encouragement for your son. In none of the above argument did I suggest that a parent should knowingly push GTA onto a kid. My argument is directed toward (a) the cost of censorship, and (b) the lack of wisdom in spending $90m to study video game playing on development given the politically charged context.
 
464Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 14:41
that exposure to "adult" material will transform otherwise innocent 16 year olds into sex-crazed adolescents, etc.

Please. Reasonable people who are wary of the effects of graphic games on youth are concerned that they can potentially be a strong factor which may lead to (or increase the liklihood of) delinquint behavior. Not, as you assert, that graphic games are a one way ticket to a career in prostitution or some other nonsense.

And I resent you framing the issue as "the argument against video games". Its no more an argument against video games than 18-year minimum age requirements are arguments against voting or military service.
 
465Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 19:42
And probably one of the biggest complaints I've heard is about some of the video games, particularly Grand Theft Auto, which has so many demeaning messages about women and so encourages violent imagination and activities and it scares parents. I mean, if your child, and in the case of the video games, it's still predominantly boys, but you know, they're playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them, you know, that's kind of hard to digest and to figure out what to say, and even to understand how you can shield your particular child from a media environment where all their peers are doing this.

And it is also now the case that more and more, parents are asking, not only do I wonder about the content and what that's doing to my child's emotional psychological development, but what's the process doing?
...
Violent video games have similar effects. According to testimony by Craig Anderson before the Senate Commerce Committee in 2000, playing violent video games accounts for a 13 to 22% increase in teenagers' violent behavior.

Now we know about 92% of children and teenagers play some form of video games. And we know that nine out of ten of the top selling video games contain violence.

And so we know that left to their own devices, you have to keep upping the ante on violence because people do get desensitized and children are going to want more and more stimulation. And unfortunately in a free market like ours, what sells will become even more violent, and the companies will ratchet up the violence in order to increase ratings and sales figures. It is a little frustrating when we have this data that demonstrates there is a clear public health connection between exposure to violence and increased aggression that we have been as a society unable to come up with any adequate public health response.


...................

That's an argument against video games, whether you like it or not.

But I do appreciate your implied support of my position that hoopsboy was incorrect to disassociate the subsequent effects of video games when evaluating their possible positive effects.
 
466Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 20:05
That's an argument against video games, whether you like it or not.

No it isn't. Its an argument about the effects of some games (specifically, graphic and violent ones) on some people (specifically, children).

And ftr I never denied the potential for positive efects of games - and the italicized excerpts you pasted don't either. I'll even gladly concede that the most potentially harmful games could certainly have seperate positive effects on some or most players. But I don't see why you find it necessary to confuse the two issues.
 
467Madman
      ID: 11359814
      Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 10:29
"What sells will become more violent" ... that isn't an argument against video games in general? I'll leave that one to the lurkers to decide.

And ftr I never denied the potential for positive efects of games - and the italicized excerpts you pasted don't either. The italicized excerpt never even hints at the possibility that video games can have positive effects, MITH.

Back to your drinking age analogy, there are arguments against drinking that support a minimum drinking age, and there are arguments about the drinking age, specifically. The first tend to argue that teenagers aren't responsible enough *yet*; those who argue the second argue that drinking is bad for you.

Prohibitionists make the blanket arguments, just like Hillary Clinton is doing with video games. This is why various news outlets have properly characterized her attacks as being against violent video games ( just one example ). And, of course, since she argues that the free production and sale of video games naturally causes them to become increasingly violent, she successfully obliterates any distinction between violent video games and video games. Even if there are a few video games that are not violent, this is a temporary and exceptional phenomenon, just a blip on the road toward increasing violence, perhaps mirroring the argument that marijuana smoking is a precursor for deadlier drug habits.

This is an "epidemic". Epidemics don't draw fine definitional distinctions; they are by definition wide-reaching, putting large populations at risk.
 
468Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 10:58
Its unfortunate that you insist on labeling her a prohibitionist, since prohibition isn't her issue at all.

Rather than deriving meaning from what people don't say, I suggest you look more wholly at what they do say:
Gamecore: Games like Grand Theft Auto are exceedingly popular. Do you personally believe that video games have merit as art?

Clinton: Art is subjective; it's in the eye of the beholder. I think video games can be fun. They can teach eye-hand coordination and strategy and they can introduce children to computer technology. And there is no doubt they are intricate and sophisticated technologically. I'm not in any way trying to do away with video games. I'm strictly concerned with a small subset of games that are harmful to children -- those that are excessively violent and sexually explicit. I want to make sure children can't obtain these games without their parents’ consent.
And while I can't track down the quote at the moment, I know I've also come across Clinton explicitly stating that game makers should be free to produce whatever they want. And I'm pretty sure that that's exactly where the marriage between the left and the religious right on this issue comes to an end.
 
469Madman
      ID: 11359814
      Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:52
"I know I've also come across Clinton explicitly stating that game makers should be free to produce whatever they want."

Yeah, free to produce whatever they want, as long as they submit all code fragments to a certification agency and don't put the letter "M" on a box for a game with code fragments that would otherwise achieve the leve of "AO".

Rather than deriving meaning from what people don't say, I suggest you look more wholly at what I said.

Prohibitionists make the blanket arguments, just like Hillary Clinton is doing with video games.

The very construction of that sentence implies that Hillary is NOT a prohibitionist, yet that is what you read. Whatever.

What I said was that her statements in March -- 9 out of 10 leading games have violence, a free market requires violence to continue to be ratcheted up, etc. -- were attacks on video games in general. That would seem to be self-evident, when you lump 90% of the top selling games into a single category.

Maybe her more recent quote that you found is an accurate judge of her character. It definitely contradicts speeches she made earlier this year (as per my previous quotations). Is she retracting? Is the transformation from "90% of the top selling" to "some" a classic rowback? Or is she schizophrenic from playing too many violent video games herself? Or is she just bending to political pressure? Which is the real Hillary?

Regardless, you and she want to restrict freedoms. I see no advantage to a policy of submitting code fragments to a censoring board, even if that board only threatens commercial sanctioning rather than jail time. Not only does such a policy harm game development and consumers (via higher costs), it has also launched a direct hit on the entire modding community. Thank you, Hillary.

And we should all remember that this is done to protect poor innocent and confused parents from accidentally letting their kid play a game called "Grand Theft Auto" despite its rating of "M". The words "personal responsibility" has apparently been thrown out of the Democratic party's lexicon.
 
470Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:56
Madman, I'm curious is you are in favor of abolishing movie ratings?
 
471Madman
      ID: 11359814
      Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 15:29
PD -- to summarize my position, in order of outrage:

1) A game manufacturer should not be held responsible for what their product turns into when third parties get engaged with modifying their software, even if it is just changing a censoring flag variable.

Any rating system based upon such criteria is a rating system that I believe to be misleading, since the rating should be tied solely to the product as it is shipped and as it would be expected to be experienced assuming that the buyer abided by the licensing agreement. Any such rating system is a system that I also cannot support because of its depressive effect on the creative public community of modders, in addition to the excessively expensive code modifications to fully deleted deactivated code segments. I want game manufacturers to concentrate on writing good code for the game as it is designed to be played, not ensuring that their deactived code accidentally violates a governing board's sensibilities.

2) All rating systems should be strictly advisory. This goes for games as well as movies. Although there is some evidence that rating systems have been created by the threat of coercive force, this is not necessarily the only way for rating systems to be put into place. Attaching criminal punishments to any rating system implementation is beyond the scope of the federal government's legitimate authority. If a local retailer sells a copy of the "Passion" to a 15 year old, they should not face federal prosecution. This is not an interstate commerce issue.
 
472Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 15:36
I don't think the issue is the sale of "Passion"-like works but the sale of much harder (violent/sexual) works.

I understand your stance about the federal involvement, but think you tend to blur your argument by insisting upon content advantages for the products, and (seemingly) inappropriate comparisons (GTA to "Passion" for instance).

So, are you against barriers to access to R and X rated movies for 15-year olds, on DVDs or on the big screen?
 
473Razor
      ID: 1477414
      Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 15:46
So, Madman, if the Lion King DVD could be hacked to include hardcore porn between people, would you still claim that manufacturers should not be held responsible for what hackers do or does your argument stem from the belief that the sex in Hot Coffee is not that much worse from GTA itself?
 
474Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 15:55
Prohibitionists make the blanket arguments, just like Hillary Clinton is doing with video games.

All politicians make blanket statements. "Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists" Yeah right. When those on the left call conservatives out for making the same kind of statements, you mock the left for their egotistical sence of nuance.

That some portions of an argument for helping parents more effectively keep graphic material out of kids' hands also happen to qualify for your standards for an "argument against video games" does not mean that she is arguing for prohibition.
 
475Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 18:24
Razor 473 -- No, I don't think Disney should be held liable if a Lion King hardcore porn sequence would be created. That would be a clear distortion of their original work, just as Hot Coffee's alteration of a censor variable was a clear distortion of GTA.

MITH -- "Either you are with us or against us" was a prospective statement, meant to polarize the world into camps in order to facilitate the identification of those working against our interests. Hillary's argument stands in stark contrast not only because it specifies a peculiar percentage of top selling games, but she also suggests an evolutionary cause why such a result is inevitable. Here, I am mocking the left for their absurd statements. It has nothing to do with their inability to accurately describe nuance.

does not mean that she is arguing for prohibition. We are running around in circles. Read what I have written, and please argue against my arguments. I never argued that she was arguing for prohibition. I was arguing that her arguments were those of prohibitionists.
 
476Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 14:59
Fine. President Bush's sloppy referenecs to any and all enemy combatants in the Middle East as "The Terrorists" is certainly a fitting analogy. I've never once heard you gripe about his shocking inability to distinguish between the varied groups that oppose us there. In fact, I'm quite sure that if pressed on the matter, you would find some reason to downplay the issue, despite your highly determned arguments from some years back regarding the importance of not diluting words like 'terrorist'. Given that, I'm not interested in your alarmist harping on some single point that Senator Clinton makes, which you claim could lead us down the path of prohibition. If it ever really comes to that, then I'll be on your side.
 
477Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 16:22
Razor 473 -- No, I don't think Disney should be held liable if a Lion King hardcore porn sequence would be created. That would be a clear distortion of their original work, just as Hot Coffee's alteration of a censor variable was a clear distortion of GTA.

A DVD is a finite amount of content on it. Taking hardcore pornography off of it, for example, should not be a difficult task. Leaving it on there in a "hidden" (in quotes for a reason) location is just inviting people to find it. I'd feel much better if manufacturers were forced to take the material off the discs entirely. I would not have a review board that looks at every DVD released. Rather, I'd just use large retroactive fines as a deterrent. In this case, I think the cost of prevention is too great.
 
478Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 16:29
I'd feel much better if manufacturers were forced to take the material off the discs entirely.

You lose me there, Razor. If Disney wants a hard porn scene in Lion King, they should have every right to put it there. That said, I don't think I'd be opposed to a fine for failing to disclose that content to the ratings board.