Forum: pol
Page 738
Subject: The Shrub's a board-room Sugar Daddy


  Posted by: biliruben - Sustainer [5310281417] Tue, Nov 26, 2002, 18:46

I would like to begin to document the beginning of Bush and his party's 2 year firesale of America.

This is in addition to our lives, livelihoods, basic rights and civil liberties being taken away, which are addressed in other threads.

I'll start off by his gift to the insurers and re-insurers by assigning us, the US tax-payers, the job of re-re-insurers
by taking insurer's risk away.

Isn't this what people and companies buy insurance for? I can't believe I'm agreeing with Phil Gramm.

Next, his gift to the timber industry. He wipes out rules about logging oversite, surveys and appeals, and sets a goal of tripling the number of trees logged, including old growth and in sensitive areas near rivers and streams.
 
1Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Tue, Nov 26, 2002, 18:58
Here is a little clearer, to me story on the insurance reform from MSNBC. I agree with what Winans said: "taxpayers have always shouldered the burden of defending against attacks, notes Chris Winans, an insurance industry analyst with Williams Capital. “The ultimate question is: ‘Should the insurance industry be required to subsidize losses from what are essentially foreign acts of war against the U.S.?” he said."

Government subsidization and insurance are just different means of risk pooling, and it seems to me that terrorist attacks are almost a perfect example of cases where sharing across the whole whole pool -- the whole U.S. -- are justified. You really have to hate business/insurers a lot to cheer at their being hard hit by terrorist costs.

You do agree that the terrorists are worse than business/insurers, don't you bili? (Note; this comment may not be logical but I just can't resist the chance to play the "soft on terrorism" card ;)

Toral
 
2biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Tue, Nov 26, 2002, 19:13
LOL, Toral. Yes, as one who worked in the insurance industry for a number of years, I am qualified to say there is a lot to hate about the insurance industry. Familiarity breeds contempt, I beleive the saying is.

Of course, if the insurers drop their rates (i.e. take the 40 billion they got hit for 9-11 out of their loss costs) to account for their decrease in risk, I may decide to change my opinion. Anyone want to lay odds on that happening?
 
3biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Tue, Nov 26, 2002, 19:32
Hey! My old company (ISO) supplied a table for that MSNBC article! Just hope it wasn't my old boss crunching the numbers. What a dolt.
 
4yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 2510392619
      Tue, Nov 26, 2002, 20:41
And this comes as a surprise to whom? God bless our good ol' boys network, dynastic, CEO in Chief.
 
5steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Tue, Nov 26, 2002, 23:49
Let's get serious here.

SENATE VOTE:

DEMOCRATS 49-0 for [1 no vote]
INDEPENDENTS 1-0 for
REPUBLICANS 34-14 for [1 no vote]

How can you call this part of some Bush fire sale.

Technically the $40M were losses. Inusred were not covered for acts of war.

If this thread is for internal liberal spin and humor only, I'm sorry for intruding.

I'll check threads about the President's policies. But the more threads started by liberals about Shrub, the better things must be going in this country. :)

 
6Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 1310102117
      Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 00:03
bili, you know that when the Republicans cannot pass legislation on their own, they put it into "security" legislation, then browbeat the Dems into voting for the whole enchilada.

Regarding the forestry issues, I guess I'm not so anti-logging on this one. Those that are trying to stop logging do so through nuisance lawsuits of which I am strongly opposed. The only thing that seems clear to me on the anti-logging side is that they will use any means they can to stop the logging, including trashing legal systems intended to protect those that might truly need protection. The insistence upon costly and overly detailed (and largely unneeded) environmental impact statements are intended not to actually assess environmental impact but to annoy loggers (and any developers, for that matter) into just going away. The twisting of the system in this way spells long-term damage for those who truly need the protection the courts provide. Too often, anti-loggers are "the boy who cried wolf."

pd
 
7biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 01:09
Steve - All are welcome. It wouldn't be an interesting thread if we only saw one side. Of course, it seems PD is here to represent the conservatives. ;)

The property/casualty insurance industry uses past losses to predict future losses, and calculates their rates accordingly. If they no longer are at risk for future terror losses, they shouldn't be using past terror losses to calculate their rates. These losses are currently in their calculations, therefore, rates should go down.

PD - I would buy the nuisance lawsuit theory if they didn't occasionally win some. If you understood the criminal lack of funding to enforce logging statutes on the books, you would understand the lawsuits are often the last and only recourse to force the government to take a peek at illegal logging practices.

I can understand if trees aren't your passion, but to trivialize the removal of the few remaining primative areas left in this country, which I would dearly like to be around for my children to see, is to turn your back (call a nuisance, whatever) on a long history of conservation in our fine country.
 
8Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 03:58
Just a question Bili. Are you sure the insurance companies actually have already figured into their prices the actual risks now that Islamists have decided to wage war on civilian America? I don't remember my rates going post 9/11. If they had then I would grant you your point of course.
 
9biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 08:23
From the MSNBC article:

Insurance premiums, which had been rising before the Sept. 11 attacks, have gone up more than 30 percent in the past year, in part to recoup Sept. 11 losses.
But while the pace of premium increases recently began to ease, the bill is not expected to help slow the rise. That’s because the new law gives insurers the right to bypassing state regulators and charge whatever they want for coverage.
 
10Madman
      Donor
      ID: 201056278
      Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 10:05
The real problem here is governmental intervention requiring insurers to provide terrorism coverage in the first place. Ideally, the government wouldn't mandate terrorism coverage, insurers wouldn't price for it or be at risk for it, and consumers would pay lower premiums as a result.

However, some liberal got the bright idea to require insurance companies to offer a product that they didn't otherwise want to do.

Given that penchant for government activism, what are your choices?

Let the insurance companies bear the risk, which results in higher premiums and fewer people getting insurance coverage for ORDINARY events as a result? Or do something like this?

I agree it's a bunch of crap. But it's a bunch of crap because people see government as part of the solution. If you force me to accept a pro-active government, I fail to see why this was not something close to the best alternative.
 
11steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 11:51
Kind of like government flood insurance.

Want flood insurance, you get it from the government. And we rebuild the same house 5-10 times after it floods.

Someone suggests giving the person the option to rebuild once [twice] or we pay you to move if you are in a high flood area, and you get called a right wing uncomappsionate nut.
 
12biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 11:52
...or a left wing, pinko enviroweenie.

I have been advocating getting those fools off the flood plains for years.
 
13biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Dec 02, 2002, 12:07
A complete lack of coherent policy.

In an interview with Esquire magazine, Mr. DiIulio said: "There is no precedent in any modern White House for what is going on in this one: a complete lack of a policy apparatus. What you've got is everything, and I mean everything, being run by the political arm. It's the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis."

I'd laugh, if it wasn't so depressing.

 
14StLCards
      Sustainer
      ID: 4431816
      Mon, Dec 02, 2002, 13:20
The timber policy is designed to better address forest management (ie reducing fires) the best that I can tell.


A June 2002 Forest Service study, The Process Predicament, concluded that the agency
“operated within a statutory, regulatory, and administrative framework that has kept the agency
from effectively addressing rapid declines in forest health.” Three factors contribute most
directly to project delay.
1) Excessive analysis: Confusion, delays, and costs of required consultations and studies.
2) Ineffective public involvement: Procedural requirements that create disincentives to
collaboration in national forest management.
3) Management inefficiencies: Poor planning and decision-making, a deteriorating skills
base and inflexible funding rules, compounded by the sheer volume of the required
paperwork and the associated proliferation of opportunities to misinterpret or misapply
required procedures.
The report concluded that “Requirements for environmental analysis go well beyond what is
required for fully informed decision-making.”

Above is one excerpt from:
The Healthy Forests: An Initiative for Wildfire Prevention and Stronger Communities is the basis for the new legislation. It talks about forest management and the problems. At the end it addresses the 1994 Northwest Forest Plan. So maybe it does help the Logging Concerns, does that have to mean it is bad? With the amount of forests being destroyed each year and the cost to fight fires in terms of not only money but lives, I commend President Bush for trying to do something positive. (yeah, yeah, I know, he's just selling out to big business, obviously since he is a Republican that must be the case)
 
15steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Mon, Dec 02, 2002, 17:48
bili - NY Times uses a disgruntled democrat 'postal worker' that quit in AUGUST 2001 for a story. Impressive.

I'd scream if liberals weren't so funny. :)
===========

StLCards - none of that matters. Bush is a conservative and someone might cut a tree down because he's the President. That makes him evil. Rather than a fire sale IN the forest, he'd like to thin them out and use lumber companies that pay the government for rights while doing it. Eco-terrorists want the forests to burn 'naturally' and take you and your house with it rather than use any trees for lumber.

If it were not true, it would be funny. :)
 
16steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Mon, Dec 02, 2002, 18:51
bili - I take back the disgruntled 'postal worker' about Mr DiIuilo. But still wonder about anything he has to say after the first 6 months of an administration.

But it is just typical NY Times reporting [no author - does that mean it's a Harold Raines editorial board job]. Copy something and don't verify if you think it attacks the opponents.

DiIulio Denies Making Critical Comments of the White House

WASHINGTON — The president's former faith-based adviser, who resigned in August 2001 to return to private life, said Monday that quotes attributed to him in a January Esquire magazine article are wrong and were never said.

DiIulio denied that his exchange with author Ron Suskind, a former Wall Street Journal reporter and Pulitzer Prize winner who wrote a piece last summer about the power of departed adviser Karen Hughes, included such comments. DiIulio also stated that Suskind's piece contained factual errors, mentioned exchanges that never took place and attributed comments to DiIulio that DiIulio denies having made.

"My work schedule being too packed to permit sit-down interviews ... I gathered up [Suskind's] questions and responded in a single long memo in late October 2002. However, several quotes and anecdotes concerning or attributed to me in the article are not from that response," DiIulio said in a written statement.

"Obviously, I cannot speak to the veracity or accuracy of comments in the article by numerous named and unnamed others, but, in my opinion, the article is unjustly hard on Mr. Rove and over-the-top complimentary to me, thereby creating a too-pat contrast that is, I feel, most unfair to Mr. Rove," he wrote.

"I regret any and all misimpressions. In this season of fellowship and forgiveness, I pray the same."

DiIulio has written two articles, including one over the weekend that criticized the administration for domestic and social welfare policies and its homeland security strategy. He said that he would "not be offering any further comment" on his experience at the White House "or any matters or persons related" to it.
 
17Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 710162916
      Mon, Dec 02, 2002, 19:43
Steve re#15: I've strongly disagreed with this Administration on a number of environmental issues, but I think they are ahead of the curve on many forestry issues. I stated on another thread about how the government has evolved its thinking the last 5-10 years about how to fight forest fires (which have gotten worse because of constant drought conditions as well as the previous focus on putting out the fires as quickly as possible, which allow for a build-up of dead wood).

Ironically, much of the problem has do do with drought conditions that might only turn worse if the Administration has its way on other environmental issues, but I'd happy for this one step forward even if they are taking two steps backwards elsewhere.

pd
 
18biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Dec 03, 2002, 14:29
Next up: "Extractive" industries hop on the Wonderful Plunder Bus

A checklist of goals for the "extractive" industries — oil, gas, mining and timber — begins with a comprehensive energy bill. Provisions pushed by those industries and others would include $34 billion in tax incentives for an array of projects: to promote exploration and expansion, develop new technologies, increase the use of ethanol in gasoline, build a natural-gas pipeline in Alaska and limit the liability of the nuclear power industry in case of catastrophic accidents.

---

"The president raised $140 million in corporate funds," Mr. Clapp said, "and he has a lot of debts to pay to campaign contributors. A lot of those debts will be in the form of weakening environmental regulations."


Sweet Jesus. Not only do they want access, they want subsidies!

Senator James M. Inhofe of Oklahoma, a former real estate developer, will lead Environment and Public Works. Mr. Inhofe, an advocate for oil and gas interests, is skeptical of global warming, is hostile to the Environmental Protection Agency (which he has called a "Gestapo bureaucracy") and once compared Carol M. Browner, who headed the agency under President Bill Clinton, to Tokyo Rose.

---

Mr. Inhofe also said he wanted to "create fiscally responsible policies that are based on sound science and cost-benefit analyses." Environmentalists say this is code for not spending money on environmental projects. Mr. Inhofe was the only senator to vote in 2000 against a $7.8 billion project to restore the Everglades, legislation that he likened to throwing money out the window.


Just the guy I want working with the EPA.

 
19Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Tue, Dec 03, 2002, 18:07
The DiIulio story is somewhere between no news and big news (how's that for a jellyfish statement?) First of all DiIulio is a fine thinker, an outstanding thinker in social-policy areas and exactly the kind of person the Bush administration needs, and it's a shame he got disillusioned. He's exactly the kind of person -- a disillusioned Democrat -- whose support and ideas the GOP needs. I cheered when he agreed to work for Bush.

The "no news" aspect is his complaining about domination by the WH's political wing. There is no --none -- nada -- not existing -- no --administration in which the pure 'good' policy people have not complained that they, and their elegant intellectual initiatives, have been brutally overruled by the cruel raw dictates of the political operatives. None. And that defintiely includes the policy-wonk friendly operations like Clinton's, Reagan's, and Kennedy's.

David Frum was a peice in nronline which I won't bother to link to where he says that he too is doing a book on Rove and that his initial observation is that someone like DiIulio who doesn't understand the role of politics in a White House probably shouldn't be working there. I think that's true about DiIulio.

The "news" part of DiIulio (this is hard to type -- why so many vowels)'s story is the statement that there is no central policy organization in the Bush White House. As far as I know, this is true, and very dangerous. Also very stupid. Though folks like biliruben should be cheering, rather than bemoaning, this, because it means Bush while in power will accomplish much less from a policy perspective than he might have.

Bush needs to follow the example here of another Republican President who was very appreciative of the need for policy (as Bush is) but didn't have a strong set of policy beliefs himself -- Richard Nixon. Nixon created a huge, well-funded policy arm in the WH, staffed by innovative thinkers (like Pat Moynihan) and gave them a lot of power. In the end it was always political considerations that ruled -- as they must, in politics. But, if you have the Haldemans, Ehrlichmanns and Roves of the world deciding everything *based on no serious input from policy makers, and with no countervailing power weighed against them*, you have a recipe for disaster. If you have them deciding which policy initiatives, generated by smart 'eggheads', they can push, you have the possibility of great governance.

Toral



 
20biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Tue, Dec 03, 2002, 18:14
Toral - How do you know it is true that Bush has no central policy org?
 
21Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Tue, Dec 03, 2002, 18:16
bili -- I *don't know*. I said "As far as I know, this is true". I meant by that only that I have never heard of one in my reading about the WH ops -- and that occurred to be after reading Joh D's comments. If I am wrong, I would be delighted to hear it!

Toral
 
22biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Tue, Dec 03, 2002, 18:28
I am not suggesting you are wrong, Toral. From what I have seen of their actions, I would certainly agree with you.

Also, I am not cheering. Non-targeted political paybacks are likely more dangerous and harmful to our country, and something I find more unforgivable and vile, than well thought-out ideologically motivated moves.
 
23Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Tue, Dec 03, 2002, 18:42
Non-targeted political paybacks are likely more dangerous...

If you talking about supposed paybacks to big business, etc., I'm staying out of it, because I don't know much about it, and am frankly not very interested. There are some 'paybacks' of this kind in all kinds of politics, indeed in this world in all its manifestations; I wish there are none; that's not the way the world works, nor the way it will ever work, unless soemhow a coalition of purist social conservatives and radical/greens gets elected ( :! ); I haven't noticed Democrats/Liberals to be any purer than Republicans/Conservatives. I glance over the arguments on these issues and I don't see what you see. The insurance one is all debatable. (Though per your earlier post I remember I once worked for people with the insurance industry as a client-- they are kind of slimy, or at least their legal stratgies are). And though I know nothing about forestry, I gather from what pd has said that the GOP initiatives there are at least defensible.

Non-targeted political paybacks are likely more dangerous and harmful to our country, and something I find more unforgivable and vile.... Well, OK. You have a higher standard for forgiveness/vileness assessment than I do. I hope your standard also applies to paybacks to public employee unions especially teachers' unions, and, notoriously, trial lawyers, when the other side is in power as well.

Toral
 
24biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Tue, Dec 03, 2002, 18:54
Uh huh. Yup. *Nod*

Clinton was moderately bad this way, too, though every tenth thing he did at least appeared to have the best interests of the country at it's root, with at least some semblance of ideological underpinnings.
 
25biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Wed, Dec 11, 2002, 21:08
Here is an excellent, balanced article on the political realities of timber policies in the era of Mark Rey.

Deal with the Devil?

It also answers Baldwin's question in this thread:

Show me a sane environmental group that has not been coopted by Earth First enviroweenies.

My sister defines your term enviroweenie, and she has nothing but disdain for what she views as many mainstream enviromental group's policies of appeasement.

From the linked article:

Out in the much-debated Northwest woods, along the Mountain Loop Highway on Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest--as the murrelet flies, about 55 miles northeast of the Space Needle-- is a second-growth forest of Douglas firs, hemlocks, and cedars--part of the Skull Thin timber sale. It is an example, perhaps, of the new accord Rey thinks can be reached between loggers and some conservationists.

Last summer, Bellingham-based Northwest Ecosystem Alliance (NWEA) showed uncharacteristic support for logging by orchestrating opposition to an out-of-state green group's lawsuit against Skull Thin and two other proposed commercial thinning sales.

Activists from several small Western Washington green groups say the Northwest Ecosystem Alliance asked them to join in a letter to the Forest Conservation Council of Santa Fe, N.M., requesting that the three Washington sales be dropped from a lawsuit targeting 25 timber sales around the nation. The Forest Conservation Council contends all of the sales mentioned in its suit are uneconomical and should be canceled.

That effort to smooth things over, part of an attempt by the Northwest Ecosystem Alliance to demonstrate a willingness to work with the Forest Service rather than be obstructionist, set the stage for an acrimonious, continuing debate among greens over the future of forest management.


I have a personal attachment to the mountain loop, btw, as that is where I do the majority of my day-hiking. Stunning country.


To address PD's mistaken belief that it is only enviroweenies at fault for clogging up the courts.

It's the timber industry who is bringing a good deal of the lawsuits:

Fearing "another sweetheart deal between the Bush administration and the timber industry," nine environmental groups intervened in July against a pair of forest-products-industry lawsuits that could shiver the very timbers of conservation law.

A decade ago, northern spotted owls and marbled murrelets were listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act--important listings that helped bring logging on federal forests to a virtual standstill.

The Clinton-brokered Northwest Forest Plan allowed logging to resume by providing what a federal judge called the "bare minimum" required to ensure the survival of owls, murrelets, and other wildlife. In last summer's lawsuits, the timber industry challenged the protected status of the owls and murrelets and the habitat designated under the Endangered Species Act as necessary to keep the birds alive.

If the new lawsuits are successful, the Northwest Forest Plan itself, not to mention the critters, could be headed for the tepee burner. And that would be bad news for the owl. As Seattle Weekly has reported (see "Spotted Owls on the Outs," Sept. 5), northern spotted owl populations appear to have dropped significantly over the past decade, with local declines ranging anywhere from 12 percent to 53 percent.

Citing the government's apparent unwillingness to defend against other industry lawsuits, Kristen Boyles, an attorney at the Seattle office of Earthjustice, a national environmental-law firm, says citizen groups have been forced to play the role usually reserved for the Justice Department. "It's been a pattern of sue-and-settle between the Bush administration and industry," says Boyles. "We need to be in these lawsuits to speak for the owls, murrelets, and people of the Northwest. The Bush administration has made it clear it won't."


...and Rey himself holds much of the blame:

In the same speech, the president expressed "strong support" for the Northwest Forest Plan but with strong qualifications. Noting that the annual 1.1 billion board feet of timber promised by Clinton has never materialized--last year's cut, for example, was less than 100 million board feet--Rey says the plan is "broken."

"The question," says Rey, never a supporter of the plan, "is what options are available to fix it? One option is to see if there is some will to go to Congress and say, 'Let's see if we can work out a better approach.' There is some interest, at least on the part of some members of the Northwest delegation, in exploring that."

"It absolutely is not broken!" says University of Washington professor Jerry Franklin, his voice rising. Leader of the team of biologists that wrote it, Franklin says the plan has "done exactly what the law required it to do."

"The law required a scientifically credible, legal--within existing law--plan for managing the national forests in the Northwest," Franklin says. "It did that. It closed the court cases, it got [logging] activities going again, and--very powerfully--it became the rock on which we gained a lot of regulatory stability on the state and private lands."

By shifting the burden for protecting wildlife from private lands to federal forests, Franklin says, the plan made it possible for big companies, like Weyerhaeuser, to have more certainty about what would be allowed on their lands.

"So that makes it terrifically successful. It was successful legally; it was successful getting national forest management out of the courts--for at least a while--and it was successful bringing regulatory stability to the Northwest, or at least a degree of regulatory stability."

The politicians' timber-harvest promises might have even come true, Franklin says--but then Mark Rey wrecked everything when, as a staffer for Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, he helped write the 1995 Salvage Logging Rider.

Known to greens as "Logging Without Laws," the infamous Salvage Rider temporarily suspended environmental laws, ramped up logging of old growth--and re-energized the conservation movement. "The Salvage Rider put the enviros back into the trenches and put everything back into the court," Franklin says. "It ended the truce that had been created by the Northwest Forest Plan," resulting in lawsuits and civil disobedience and a new green goal of zero cut on national forests.


Now that you have a proper target, PD, maybe you will decide to rejoin the democratic party. ;)
 
26Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 12:09
Excellent post, Bili. PD is flat out wrong. What does a New Jersey boy know about logging anyway? Supporting Bush's "We must destroy the forest to save it" bull$hit, bah!
 
27Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 13:10
I just ran across a study where a forest that was managed with various stages of growth had all the bird species of a comparably sized old growth forest and twenty species more!

Crank up those solar powered chainsaws boys!
Hitch up the horses and let's drag those trees out!
 
28biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 13:12
Different models of ATVs aren't really different species, Baldwin.
 
29Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 13:16
"We must destroy the forest to save it" - SZ

And yes SZ you don't have to be employed by the Forest Service to know that we may as well harvest and manage the forest instead of the present policy of letting kindling build up until the whole region goes up in flames.
 
30Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 89321319
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 13:16
Zen, I'm not so much pro-logging as I am that we have to take some new stances on things regarding forestry. The incredible summer fires we have had, for example, is a direct result of trying to put out every fire as soon as possible. This is short sighted, and has nothing to do with logging.

pd
 
31biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 13:41
Than you are on the side of most environmentalists, PD, who believe in letting fires run their course, except when homes and businesses are threatened.

The issue comes down to whether you believe Bush and the timber industry are going to truly manage the forests or just go back to "clear-cutting as usual" once they do away with oversight and regulations that hinder it.

I haven't seen anything from the industry and administration to make me think they deserve that trust, and that they will start managing forests in an expensive, time-consuming and low-yield process, through feeling of altruism and love of the land. The timber industry is a business and the administration is pro-business, so without oversight and regulations and, yes, recourse to our judicial system if need be, I expect the worst, since the worst is what yields the highest profits.
 
32Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 13:50
Baldwin -

Thanks for spouting off more tired, chiched Earth raping tripe like harvest and manage the forest and our present "policy" to let "kindling" build up.

First off, there is no "kindling" up here in the Pacific NW because we don't have forest fires, it is too damp.

Yes, there have been some horrible forest fires in the drier parts of the West. These occur because undergrowth has occured in areas that HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY LOGGED. Old growth forests have forest fires, but nothing like the huge imolations that sweep through regrowth. Old growth forests survive as long as they do because they trap the little moisture they are alotted, preventing most fires from starting. Furthermore, old growth forests prevent undergrowth from flourishing by preventing the proper amount of light from reaching the floor, from the acidity of fallen needles killing all flora that dares rear its head, and many other natural mechanisms.

So the forest industry suggests that we need to LOG the forest in order to prevent forest fires, thin it out, prevent "kindling from accumulating" when it is the very fact that LOGGING is what causes all of that.

Myth 1: You can "thin" a forest through "managed" logging. BULL$HIT! Every logging operation is clear cut. You can't selectively cut a few trees here and there and then drag them out through the other trees.

If we are so concerned about "kindling" why not send Forest Service employees into the forests to clear it? Leave the trees, cut down undergrowth.

Bush's plan to leave our National Forests managment to the timber industry is about as wise as creating a day care center in the pedophile wing of the State Pen.
 
33Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 89321319
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 13:50
I hear ya, bili. But the problem with most tough situations is not getting people to agree on a plan, but getting people to agree to put aside misgivings of what the other side will do after the plan is implemented in order to let the plan start.

pd
 
34Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 13:58
forest fires in the drier parts of the West. These occur because undergrowth has occured in areas that HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY LOGGED. Old growth forests have forest fires, but nothing like the huge imolations that sweep through regrowth. - SZ

Baloney...the kindling comes preventing natural forest fires for too many years period. Yellowstone burned down and I don't recall too much logging in Yellowstone. The only point I will grant you altho you didn't make it is that it is harder for forest fires to severely damage the crowns of old growth forest but that not to say that kindling does not build up in old growth forests.

Thanks for regaling us with stories about the fireproof NW. I really enjoyed your invaluable local insight.
 
35Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 14:02
I simply brought up the fact that we don't have forest fires because I won't stand by while the timber industry mows down our beautiful trees and uses the "we've got to manage this forest to prevent fires" crap. Doesn't apply here.
 
36Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 14:03
I am not for clearcutting huge contiguous areas BTW. If you want to argue for maintaining a variety of stages of growth throughout a region I am right behind you on that issue.

The changes Bush instituted simply reduced the delay in managing a patch of forest from seven years to two years and limited the impact Earth First form letters have on the proccess.
 
37biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 21:45
Here's how I am guessing it will go down. There will be a handful of demonstration projects covering a few thousand acres near highly populated areas, with lots of photos of them thinning underbrush and smaller trees, but leaving the older trees standing.

Then a billion+ board-feet a year of 2nd growth a some old-growth logs will be clear-cut far from high population areas where fire issues are minimal (and what would clear-cutting do but increase the danger in the long-run anyway?) and camaras are not around, destroying untold millions of acres of diverse habitat, rivers, streams and wetlands, and destroying the long-term sustainability of timber jobs in the process. All in the name of a quick buck and in the guise of "cutting through red tape" and "fire prevention".
 
38biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Thu, Dec 12, 2002, 23:01
Some info from the forest service on old growth forests and the endangered PNW plan.

It also talks about uneven-age silviculture, and maintaining the 10-15% of the old growth forests that remain in Washington, which Baldwin was I think referring to.
 
39Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Dec 13, 2002, 10:18
Not too sure how relevant this is to the discussion but I lived in a logging community in SC. When an area was designated for a logging operation it was pretty much cleared out. Operations were cost efficient to serious fault. Workers were paid poorly and conditions were far more dangerous than should probably be allowed. There were multiple on the job deaths and who knows how many injuries in the time I lived there. I believe logging was probably the biggest industry in that part of the state, which was in considerably poor financial standing. That was 1994 and I have no idea how logging in the NW might be different or what or how much might have changed in SC since I was there, but at time the central SC logging industry certainly didn't seem capable of switching to a policy of maintaining various stages of growth in areas designated for removing trees.
 
40Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Dec 13, 2002, 10:28
Thinking back, more Kershaw County residents were employed by the huge DuPont plant in Lugoff than by any other company. That said, logging was probably not the biggest industry of the region, but certainly among the biggest.
 
41yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 291119150
      Sun, Dec 15, 2002, 02:10
Finally, a subject I have real authority on...LOL...I was a Firefighter for the NPS and FS from 1997 to 1999. I was stationed both in the Dixie NF and Bryce Canyon (SW Utah) as well as the Payette NF in ID. I have first hand experience cleaning up the debris (pullback) left over from timber sales, both for asthetic and pre-Rx burn purposes and I'm here to tell all the "selective harvesting" and "thinning" advocates that the version of logging that you propose doesn't exist. That's not to say that the effort isn't made, but the bottom line is that in the process of taking trees selected for harvesting out of a timber sale unit, damage or destruction occurs to about 99% of the trees that aren't earmarked for the saw. And this was under an Administration that was more apt to pursue enforcement of the already porus regulations on the books.

I should probably go on record (again) that I never met a conservation plan I didn't like. It's disgusting to me that we even have to DEBATE saving old growth forests or putting aside land as "forever wild". Despite the cries from the right about wasted land, FS, NPS and BLM administered property sees more logging, mining, grazing and oil extraction than anyones idea of a "park" could imagine. This isn't what Teddy and Gifford had in mind.

baldwin - the mandate of the fire services for the last half century plus has been to put out any fire, any where. This was a HUGE mistake on the part of forest planners, but acknowledging fire as a part of natures way is a school of thought that is relatively new. Tackling the problems of invasive species, out of control undergrowth and an abundance of fuels is not as simple as you believe, and despite my inclination to the proactive side of the aisle, I must point out that you're grossly mistaken if you believe that logging has the best interests of a usable forest at heart. Like most profit driven enterprises, the bottom line IS the bottom line, and the decision makers of today are more inclined to shore up their own "golden parachutes" than they are to worry about the state of the forest 25, 50 or 100 years down the road. I've seen it with my own eyes.

sz, The FS does send FFT's into the forest for fuels monitoring and management; I spent at least 9 or 10 hours out of a 50 hour (non fire) work week thinning "kindling" and ladder fuels. Your assertion that logging causes fires is kind of sketch - maybe there is a greater frequency, but the fuels left behind are generally smaller 1 and 10 hour varieties - hardly the type that produces a raging inferno, so the intensity would be much less and the fires would be more beneficial in the grand scheme of things. However, I will readily admit that the fauna and ecosystems of the Great Basin are dramaticly different than the coastal NW and that I know less about the latter than the former.

Conclusion? Or rather opinion - the management of our national parks and forests needs to be taken away from the current posse of real estate developers, ex-logging and oil industry lobbyists and political cronies - for good. I don't care about the political stripes of the executive branch - these are decisions that should to be handled by biologists, hydrologists and fire management officers.

And I think that the FMO's and FFT's should all get fat raises. 8)
 
42Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sun, Dec 15, 2002, 03:05
The problem as I see it is two extremes are preventing a middle ground solution.

Granted bottom line generated unregulated logging plans will not naturally produce well managed forests.

The other extreme is from government regulatory bodies compromised by radicals within and without who simply want to impede and make unprofitable any and all logging they possibly can.

The middle ground I would like to see is selective harvesting that leaves 3/4 of the region on any scale unharvested at any one time. I see no reason for natural forest fires harvesting the forest, let's do it ourselves. Why have out of control natural fires with firefighters desperately cutting firebreaks at the last second. Why aren't loggers already cutting barriors to uncontrollable fires?

I love the idea of having a few untouchable old growth forests here and there but old growth forests are not the havens of biodiversity people presume they are. Turnover and variety of habitats and stages of growth are important goals. Preserving all old growth forests isn't even a good goal let alone the ideal goal.

How we would get to logging that is guided by wisdom and aesthetics instead of the two extremes of uncontrolled clearcutting on the one hand and radical intransigent obstructionism on the other is beyond me.

Maybe if sane people took back the environmental movement...

 
43biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 589301110
      Wed, Dec 18, 2002, 22:07
House republicans question Bush's giveaways.

Something a litte puzzling as well:

Defenders of Wildlife is also pursuing a Freedom of Information Act suit to reveal documents relating to development of the NFMA rule proposal. Responding to Defenders' initial FOIA request, Undersecretary of Agriculture for National Resources and Environment Mark Rey, whose office oversees the Forest Service, claimed to have no records whatsoever that related to development of the new logging regulation.

Glad he did his research before changing the rules. Is he just lying, or what?
 
44yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 3011531712
      Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 07:22
Rey is a longtime logging industry shill. Why should we be surprised if he's full of crap? Like most decisions made by this administration regarding the environment, it's purely business friendly, with little or no concern for the future of the land.
 
45biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 14:40
Drilling for coal-bed methane pits conservative ranchers against conservative energy companies.

GILLETTE, Wyo. — As it runs through Orin Edwards's ranch, the Belle Fourche River bubbles like Champagne. The bubbles can burn. They are methane, also called natural gas, the fuel that heats 59 million American homes. Mr. Edwards noticed the bubbles two years ago, after gas wells were drilled on his land. The company that drilled the wells denies responsibility for the flammable river.

An hour's drive west, the artesian well on Roland and Beverly Landrey's ranch has failed. After producing 50 gallons a minute for 34 years, the well, the ranch's only source of water, stopped flowing in September. A well digger who examined it blames energy companies drilling for gas nearby, but the companies dispute that. So the couple — he is 83 and ailing; she describes herself as "no spring chicken" — hauls water in gallon jugs and drives 30 miles to town weekly to wash clothes and bathe.

Dave Bullach, a welder who lives near Gillette, couldn't take it anymore. For two sleep-deprived years, he endured the incessant yowl of a methane compressor, a giant pump that squeezes methane into an underground pipeline. There are thousands of these screaming machines in Wyoming, where neither state nor federal law regulates their noise. Mr. Bullach stormed out of his house at midnight last year with a rifle and shot at the compressor until a sheriff's deputy hauled him off to jail.

-----

Coal-bed methane accounts for only about 9 percent of the country's proven natural gas reserves, or less than one year's production at current consumption levels, according to the Energy Department. But over the last decade, estimates of likely reserves have soared.

The federal Energy Information Administration has described the Rockies as having the potential to become "a Persian Gulf of natural gas."

There are serious questions, however, about how real that potential is. "In the 1970's, oil shale was hailed as our energy salvation, and it turned into a huge bust," said Pete Morton, an economist with the Wilderness Society. "This could be history repeating itself".

----

Ms. Blancett, a lifelong Republican, was Mr. Bush's political organizer in northwestern New Mexico for the 2000 presidential campaign. In November, she and her husband, Linn, and two other ranching families locked out energy companies whose plumbing of the gas beneath the surface of the land, they say, threatens their livelihood.

---

In financial terms, ranchers in the basin have become insignificant tenants on federal land. They pay the government a total of about $100,000 a year for grazing rights. Energy companies pay about $350 million in federal royalties on gas they produce.

---

"Looking after the Earth is a pay-as-you-go process, but they don't have a plan like that here," said Raymond Plank, chairman of the board of Apache Corporation, one of the largest independent natural gas and oil companies in the United States. It does not operate coal-bed wells in Wyoming.

"What happened here is ready, fire, aim," Mr. Plank said.

He said that if energy companies had to pay for the water they waste, as well as put up bonds to cover all costs of restoring land when wells run dry, they would not make money in the basin.

"I don't happen to think that this gas here is probably economically viable with responsible land and water practices," he said.
 
46Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 14:42
Damn. Ranchers vs. oil companies. Poor bili. Whom do you root for.
 
47biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 14:48
At least the ranchers have a long-term interest in maintaining the quality and usability of the land. The energy dudes are more a "rape, pillage and I'm outta here" operation.
 
48biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Tue, Feb 04, 2003, 20:59
Well it turns out Bush's talk about forest management for fire prevention was just that - talk.

As with most mangled ideas articulated by The Shrub's forked tongue, he talks a good game, but when it's time for action, you see the true snake revealed. He chooses not to put any money behind his vaunted "Healthy Forests" initiative to get it done. Not that I believed his malarkey about "management" anyway. I'm sure he will get the loggers to do it for "free"!

The Bush administration's 2004 budget would provide little new funding to treat the overgrown forests that it said were to blame for catastrophic wildfires last year.

The administration wants to spend $416 million in 2004 to cut excess trees in 2.5 million acres of forests that are at severe risk for fire. That is an increase of $3 million over the amount the president proposed for the current year.

Sen. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M., the ranking Democrat on the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, said the administration's recommendation doesn't even keep pace with inflation.

"Obviously the need is enormous," he said. "They talked a lot about it. They just didn't request the funds to do much."

The Bush proposal, released Monday, seeks $231 million for Forest Service treatment programs for the 2004 budget year - up from $228 million in Bush's 2003 request - and $186 million for Interior Department programs, about the same as in 2003.


 
49Mr. Snrub
      ID: 3409121
      Tue, Feb 04, 2003, 21:44
Thought this was an interesting article that didn't really fit in the Columbia thread:

Bush Uncertain About Space Center Visit
 
50biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Tue, Feb 04, 2003, 21:51
LOL! Pretty funny, but not nec. news... unless it's the onset of alzhiemers. "I don't recall" has been heard in the whitehouse before.
 
51Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Fri, Feb 07, 2003, 18:23
You probably assume I have written a zillion pro-Bush posts. I can understand that but in fact I have not. Bush may be right more often than a stopped clock but he's tied to the same dark forces as Clinton was.

 
52biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 5310281417
      Thu, Feb 13, 2003, 20:39
Ding! Ding! Ding! I am a winner in the "guess how The Shrub is going to pay for 'thining'" contest.



They snuck this into the spending bill:

The timber industry could take a much greater role in managing millions of acres of national forests in California and across the West under a little-noticed provision added at the last minute to Congress' huge domestic spending bill.

The proposal would let the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management award an unlimited number of "stewardship contracts" -- essentially paying logging companies trees for maintaining trails or thinning forests to reduce the risk of wildfire.

Critics say the plan could open up wide swaths of public land to heavier logging.


More giveaways to corportations! What a fickin' surprise! I can't wait to see how they "thin" the forests! Pavement doesn't burn does it?
 
53biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:54
butt for tree
 
54biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 15:14
Cronyism is an important factor in our Iraqi debacle. It's not just that reconstruction is much more expensive than it should be. The really important thing is that cronyism is warping policy: by treating contracts as prizes to be handed to their friends, administration officials are delaying Iraq's recovery, with potentially catastrophic consequences.

It's rarely mentioned nowadays, but at the time of the Marshall Plan, Americans were very concerned about profiteering in the name of patriotism. To get Congressional approval, Truman had to provide assurances that the plan would not become a boondoggle. Funds were administered by an agency independent of the White House, and Marshall promised that priorities would be determined by Europeans, not Americans.

Fortunately, Truman's assurances were credible. Although he is now honored for his postwar leadership, Truman initially rose to prominence as a fierce crusader against war profiteering, which he considered treason.

----

For example, in July two enterprising Middle Eastern firms started offering cellphone service in Baghdad, setting up jury-rigged systems compatible with those of neighboring countries. Since the collapse of Baghdad's phone system has been a major source of postwar problems, coalition authorities should have been pleased.

But no: the authorities promptly shut down the services. Cell service, they said, could be offered only by the winners in a bidding process — one whose rules, revealed on July 31, seemed carefully designed to shut out any non-American companies. (In the face of strenuous protests the rules were revised, but still seem to favor the usual suspects.) Oddly, the announcement of the winners, originally scheduled for Sept. 5, keeps being delayed. Meanwhile, only Paul Bremer and his people have cellphones — and, thanks to the baffling decision to give that contract to MCI, even those phones don't work very well. (Aside from the fact that its management perpetrated history's biggest accounting fraud, MCI has no experience in building cell networks.)

Then there's electricity. One reason Iraq still faces blackouts is that local experts and institutions were excluded from the repair business. Instead, the exclusive contract was given to Bechtel, whose Republican ties are almost as strong as Halliburton's. And if a recent story in The Washington Post is accurate, Bechtel continues to ignore pleas by Iraqi engineers for essential spare parts.




Krugman
 
55Pancho Villa
      Donor
      ID: 533817
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 15:37
bili - If you check out my Iraqi Project Sampler thread, you'll see more blatant examples of Bush using the Iraqi situation to economically benefit a small group of American businesses on the backs of US taxpayers.

Why, for instance, do we need to send 100 prison-building experts to Iraq for 6 months at a cost of 10 million dollars? Don't we have an Army Corps of Engineers that can oversee the majority of this project with maybe 10 civilian experts?

 
56biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 15:52
I saw those, PV. Nice examples.

It really is remarkable to me how brazen the administration is being about both the appearance and the likely reality of war-profiteering. We brand a dude for life for betting on his own baseball team to win, yet we give a free pass to a group that appears to be killing thousands to make billions. It is truly amazing what affective blinders fear and jingoism can create.
 
57Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 16:57
thanks...

Washington Insiders' New Firm Consults on Contracts in Iraq
 
58biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Oct 30, 2003, 13:50
The Center for Public Integrity breaks down the profiteering and corporate welfare by campaign donation amounts.

Companies awarded $8 billion in contracts to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan have been major campaign donors to President Bush, and their executives have had important political and military connections, according to a study released Thursday.

The study of more than 70 U.S. companies and individual contractors turned up more than $500,000 in donations to the president's 2000 campaign, more than they gave collectively to any other politician over the past dozen years.


Let Iraqis rebuild there own country, and pay them as handsomely as Halliburton. It's the least we can do to engage Iraqis interested in making their country a better place.
 
59Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Thu, Oct 30, 2003, 16:15
Let Iraqis rebuild there own country, and pay them as handsomely as Halliburton. It's the least we can do to engage Iraqis interested in making their country a better place.

I was more willing to go along with this idea earlier. However, reports I started reading a couple of months into the post-war environment convinced me that I (and Bush) had been wrong on this score. For just one example, electric generation in Baghdad was slower to get online because of excessive reliance on less qualified and sometimes less than enthusiastic co-operation from Iraqis. With some things -- some key things -- we should go in there and give them the best our money can buy. Then, train them, and turn it over. We spent too long relying on unreliable Iraqi sources.

The risks of going without power for excessively long periods of time were too great. Fortunately, power generation is back up to 'normal', but we still need to do better since pre-war levels were so atrocious (Saddam notably milked the provinces to supply Baghdad, a situation that after our rectification results still in Baghdad being short of pre-war electric power levels).
 
60Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Oct 30, 2003, 16:51
of course, the bigger issue, are the benefits being reaped financially and politically by all those involved, including the grand trickster himself, GW Bush.
 
61biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Wed, Dec 10, 2003, 15:13
"Heh, heh, heh. My kind of scum.":

Halliburton Halliburton passes gas.

A company's profits on the transport and sale of gasoline are usually razor-thin, with companies losing contracts if they overbid by half a penny a gallon. Independent experts who reviewed Halliburton's percentage of its gas importation contract said the company's 26-cent charge per gallon of gas from Kuwait appeared to be extremely high.

"I have never seen anything like this in my life," said Phil Verleger, a California oil economist and the president of the consulting firm PK Verleger LLC. "That's a monopoly premium — that's the only term to describe it. Every logistical firm or oil subsidiary in the United States and Europe would salivate to have that sort of contract."

In March, Halliburton was awarded a no-competition contract to repair Iraq's oil industry, and it has already received more than $1.4 billion in work. That award has been the focus of Congressional scrutiny in part because Vice President Dick Cheney is Halliburton's former chief executive officer. As part of its contract, Halliburton began importing fuel in the spring when gasoline was in short supply in large Iraqi cities.

The government's accounting shows that Halliburton paid its Kuwait subcontractor $1.17 a gallon, when it was selling for 71 cents a gallon wholesale in the Middle East.

In addition, Halliburton is paying $1.21 a gallon to transport the fuel an estimated 400 miles from Kuwait to Iraq, the documents show. It is paying 22 cents a gallon to transport gas into Iraq from Turkey.

The 26 cents a gallon it keeps includes a 2-cent fee and 24 cents for "mark-up costs," the documents show. The mark-up portion is intended to cover the overhead for administering the contract.

Ms. Hall of Halliburton said it was "misleading" for the corps to call it a mark-up. "This simply means overhead costs, which includes the general and administrative costs like light bulbs, paper and employees," she said. "These costs are specifically allowable under the contract with the Corps of Engineers, are defined by detailed regulations, and are scrutinized and approved by U.S. government auditors."

In recent weeks, the costs of importing fuel from Kuwait have risen. Figures provided recently to Congressional investigators by the corps show that Halliburton was charging as much as $3.06 per gallon for fuel from Kuwait in late November.


 
62Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Dec 11, 2003, 17:46
and to add to the piling on...

Pentagon Audit Finds Halliburton Overcharged
 
63Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Jan 06, 2004, 12:35
and more still, of the joy of giving head to GW and his cronies...

Army OKs Halliburton Waiver for Oil Deal
 
64James K Polk
      ID: 51010719
      Tue, Jan 06, 2004, 13:29
Tree, that story has a misleading headline. The story is fleshing out old news, talking about a waiver that was signed on Dec. 19. The Army Corps essentially gave Halliburton approval to use the Kuwaiti contractor that ended up overcharging the company.
 
65steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Tue, Jan 06, 2004, 13:54
thanks JKP - and tree, read the whole story before you celebrate.
 
66Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Sat, Jan 24, 2004, 10:06
It might not be as easy to dismiss these current developments.

Interesting that Halliburton is attemting to sway public opinion by running ads on CNN with the catch phrase,
"Halliburton. Proud to serve our troops."



Possibly the money spent on this PR campaign would be better spent in their human resources department, finding employees in charge of billions of US taxpayer dollars who refrain from taking a few million for themselves.

Perhaps a more fitting catch phrase at the end of their TV spot would be,

"Halliburton. Doing what we get paid to do..and and patting ourselves on the back for doing a piss poor job of it."
 
67Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 22:04
Anybody notice a pattern about how Halliburton does business?
We are supposed to buy the fact that in Nigeria, the company isn't aware that it's paying off officials to the tune of 2.4 mil, and that in Iraq its employees are taking 6 mil in kickbacks? These are only the incidents we know about, leading one to wonder if this is standard for Halliburton, not isolated incidents. I certainly feel confident that they've been entrusted with billions of US tax dollars.

As far as Equatorial Guinea, nice that we pick and choose which ruthless dictators to support.
So much for the idea that it's not about oil, and that the effort in Iraq is humanitarian.

"Obiang was cut loose by the Clinton administration because of the country's appalling human rights record, but President Bush has reengaged him as part of the war on terror. No doubt the oil reserves have also focused his mind."

We berate the Russians and the French for doing business with Saddam, when our oil multinationals are putting $500 mil in a dictator's pocket who, among other things, is making sure that slavery is alive and well in Africa.
 
68Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Fri, Jan 30, 2004, 14:56
Dishonest Dubya...
 
69Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Mar 24, 2004, 14:03
Bush's Bagmen: Meet the Pioneers and Rangers, the president's A-team for campaign cash
 
70Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Wed, Apr 07, 2004, 09:42
Although this case predates Bush's administration, the level of cooperation from Norton's Interior Department has reached new lows with the resignation of Alan Balaran.

The systematic screwing of Native Americans is alive and well, and there is no way the energy multinationals will be called to task with their buddies Bush and Cheney at the helm.

This
is part of what the government calls "Mr. Balaran's theory based on innuendo, supposition and baseless speculation."

The Assistant Secretary of the Interior resigns under a cloud of perjury and obstruction of justice and the the government calls this baseless speculation? It would seem that the speculation has a hell of a lot of basis.
 
71Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Fri, Apr 09, 2004, 17:16
French-translation wash-care label



 
72Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Fri, Apr 09, 2004, 17:35
Nice, Tree.
 
73Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Mon, Apr 12, 2004, 14:44
and now you can buy the t-shirt....
 
74biliruben
      ID: 41046317
      Tue, Jan 04, 2005, 18:41
Nice Post by Matthew Yglesias.

...The point is not especially that Bush has been a uniquely bad president on trade issues (though perhaps he has, I haven't studied the issue) but rather than in many of these cases -- especially my beloved softwood lumber one -- it's more than obvious that policy has simply been put up for sale to the highest bidder. There is no misguided economic theory at work in this White House.

There is no misplaced humanitarian concern for the third world laborer. There is simply the fact that the US softwood lumber producing industry has evidently paid the President of the United States more money than has the US softwood lumber consuming industry. The only thing this administration has in common with the ideals of free market theory is its seeming determination to demonstrate the truth of the crassest public choice characterizations of public sector decision-making. Does PhARMA want a hundreds of billions in subsidies? Is PhARMA willing to pay? Then subsidies they shall get. Do they want special rules written into a so-called "trade" agreement with Australia? Are they willing to pay? Then they shall have them.

Seriously. Canadians want to sell you cheap wood. Whether or not the availability of this cheap wood is, to some extent, the result of Canadian policy is not the issue. They want to sell it to you. You want to buy it. But George W. Bush won't let you. Instead, he proposes that we get our wood by making it easier to cut down our nation's federally protected forestland. Really. That's the policy. Why let someone else cut down his trees for you, when you could cut down your own trees at greater expense?


Vote for the "free marketeer" and if you pay him enough he will promise you a monopoly!
 
75sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Tue, Jan 04, 2005, 22:25
and Kerry said GWB did away with pay-go. Not true, he simply redefined it! PAY me, GO do what you want.
 
76sarge33rd
      ID: 45229215
      Wed, Mar 16, 2005, 15:11
Alaska cleared for drilling...


SCOREBOARD:

Corp Oil: 1
Environment: 0
 
77Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Wed, Mar 16, 2005, 16:37
Scoreboard:

USA 1

OPEC 0
 
78sarge33rd
      ID: 562251410
      Wed, Mar 16, 2005, 17:16
are you trurly naive enough to think for one second, that this will bring the price ofoil down? or do you think it more likely, that the oil bigwigs will lay forth claims of "cost of development" and partake of windfall profits?
 
79Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Wed, Mar 16, 2005, 17:32
So go drill some oil if it's such easy money.
 
80biliruben
      ID: 500432513
      Wed, Mar 16, 2005, 17:43
Prostitution is easy money too. It doesn't mean I have the, um, assets or ethics to do it.
 
81Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Wed, Mar 16, 2005, 18:05
So are you telling me you have a problem with the derrick or you have turned fundie? ;>
 
82biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 11:14
Even Malkin the Hack is pissed about Bush's latest Crony appointment.

I have a conservative friend in the field in immigration and he's livid.

We should probably start another thread on the long list of cronies who are either unqalified or actively hostile to the department they are appointed to. Unfortunately, it would be easier to go the other direction and see if there are any appointments, any at all, that are defensible.
 
83biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 11:17
Her uncle is Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, the departing chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. She married Chertoff's current chief of staff, John F. Wood, on Saturday.
 
84Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 11:27
This is the part where a board conservative points out that wayward department needs a good kick in the ass and an outsider to come in and restructure that department from the ground up.
 
85biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 11:34
The apologistas seem to be running for Alabama. I haven't seen a bracing attempt to defend the trimming of the shrub around here in awhile.
 
86sarge33rd
      ID: 27563010
      Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 11:41
Thats because even shrubs defenders, are growing weary of the constant need to defend him.
 
87soxzeitgeist
      ID: 478242110
      Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 11:44
Except for the fact that she's attached to our "security" concerns, Myers isn't even the choice for "best cronyism hack appointment" of the week. I think that one has to go to Dr. Norris Alderson, who was nominated to head the FDA's office of Womens Health.

Dr. Alderson has a distinguished 20+ year unblemished medical career - as an animal husbandry specialist.
 
88sarge33rd
      ID: 27563010
      Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 11:57
goes hand-in-hand with the Arabian Horse Associations "fired" Event Co-ord as head of FEMA. Dont you think?
 
89biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Nov 10, 2005, 19:24
Senator Stevens is a real prick.
 
90biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 11:15
This explains everything.

While journalists and presidential historians had long noted Bush's deep faith and Cheney's powerful influence in the White House, few had drawn a direct correlation between the two until Tuesday, when transcripts of meetings that took place in March and April of 2002 became available.
 
91Tree
      ID: 59022218
      Sun, Jan 22, 2006, 19:04
Halliburton Cited in Iraq Contamination

cronyism unchecked...like this is anything new, but hey, HOORAY FOR GW BUSH!

WASHINGTON - Troops and civilians at a U.S. military base in Iraq were exposed to contaminated water last year and employees for the responsible contractor, Halliburton, couldn't get their company to inform camp residents, according to interviews and internal company documents.
 
92Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Fri, Feb 03, 2006, 16:52
U.S. Expels Venezuelan Diplomat

Donald Rumsfeld with one of history's all-time unintentionally funniest statements...

On Thursday, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld drew a parallel between Chavez and Adolf Hitler.

"He's a person who was elected legally — just as Adolf Hitler was elected legally — and then consolidated power," Rumsfeld said in a National Press Club appearance.


hmmm....are we sure Chavez is the president he's talking about?
 
93Seattle Zen
      ID: 3415339
      Fri, Feb 03, 2006, 17:14
Elected and Re-elected. Both times with majorities MUCH higher than GW.
 
94biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Feb 03, 2006, 17:32
He's just pissed because Chavez has so far been good at dodging our assassin's bullets.
 
95sarge33rd
      ID: 480323118
      Fri, Feb 03, 2006, 18:16
sooooooo shrub wanats to spread democracy, have fair and free legal elections, but only if his candidate wins?

<-----Raising hands for yet another recount in Fl/Oh.
 
96Tree
      ID: 41137318
      Fri, Feb 03, 2006, 19:42
i just like how someone on Bush's staff is talking about someone else consolidating power...exactly what Bush has attempted to do, by proclaiming he, as president, is above the law.
 
97Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Feb 03, 2006, 20:14
Elected and Re-elected. Both times with majorities MUCH higher than GW - SZ

A feat so much easier when you shoot at the opposing voters.
 
98sarge33rd
      ID: 480323118
      Fri, Feb 03, 2006, 20:22
or have a bunch of dupes voting for you.
 
99Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Fri, Feb 03, 2006, 20:51
A feat so much easier when you shoot at the opposing voters.

Once again, many Americans can't stand the fact that a foreign leader who we despise is a national hero in their homeland.

In Vietnam we can thank the French for helping make Ho Chi Minh a national hero, and in Venezuela we can thank Bush Bush for making Chavez the same.

He has incredible popular support.
 
100Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Feb 03, 2006, 20:58
It's an interested set of cases with there and Palestine. Legal elections bringing leaders the Administration can't stand.
 
101Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Sat, Feb 04, 2006, 13:39
He has incredible popular support.

And incredibly hard negative numbers as well.
 
102sarge33rd
      ID: 2511422414
      Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 14:57
Interesting article reference judicial response to the new BK law in todays Austin Statesman.

(copied w/o permission)

.....Judge Frank Monroe of Austin rejected the case...-with a bang.
In his ruling, Monroe said the new federal bankruptcy law is full of traps for consumers, calling some of its provisions "inanw", "absurd" and incomprehensible to "any rational human being".
He stopped just short of accusing Congress of being bought and paid for, dryly noting, "Apparently, it is not the individual consumers of this country that make the donations to the members of Congress that allow them to be elected, and re-elected and re-elected and re-elected."

 
103Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Mon, Feb 06, 2006, 07:28
This new BK law is about as anti-consumer as it gets.

More than half the bankruptcies during the past 10 years have come from folks who couldn't pay medical bills -- usually because their jobs provided no insurance and they couldn't afford private coverage.

All it takes to get buried in that trap is for an individual HMO to decide that a particular (and expensive) medical treatment is either unnecessary or uncovered.

The new BK law is just one more nail in the coffin of the American middle class, which is now unable to escape from catastrophic medical emergencies.

The rich, of course, don't have to worry. Not only are they covered by medical insurance, they typically share in the ownership of the credit-card companies who are the only beneficiaries of the new law.
 
104sarge33rd
      ID: 2511422414
      Mon, Feb 06, 2006, 08:41
Interesting thing Don, is that you are right. Leading cause of BK in this country, is lost income due to ilness/injury and thus lost work time. I had long thought it to be excessive CC debt, but facts dont bear that out.
 
105Boxman
      ID: 24125215
      Mon, Feb 06, 2006, 08:51
Think the BKs are bad now? Just wait. I have no idea how young adults do it now with the following hanging over their heads:

20k in student loan debt (if they're lucky) that is paid over a 10 year period.
Record energy prices.
Credit card debt.
Housing prices. New townhouses in my area start at 400k. Townhouses. I'm not knocking them, just saying that the pricing is ludicrous.

I would be amazed to hear about a college grad, getting married, buying a house and surviving based on the cost of living relative to new graduate wages.
 
106sarge33rd
      ID: 2511422414
      Mon, Feb 06, 2006, 09:18
Apts in the Austin area, are almost exclusively set up for multi tenant dwelling. 3 BR, a full bath off each. This way, the rent gets split 3 ways and its affordable. I dont see how today a family can get launched, unless they
1) are well to do to start with or
2) live with mom and dad for 10 years while they pay down student loans, accumulate time on the job and raises and bank some cash.
 
107Boxman
      ID: 24125215
      Mon, Feb 06, 2006, 09:27
Another thing for young couples to contend with. My property taxes went up in November by $70 per month. $840 per year. There was no referendum, no vote, and there was no re-valuation of the property that I am aware of. The ONLY notice we received was from our bank just stating that the escrow amount went up due to a property tax hike. We received nothing from the county.

I'm just curious when did it happen that people weren't allowed to vote anymore in this country.

I wonder how many of those multi-tenant dwellings are setup such that one name is on the lease and then that tenant can use that apartment as part of his supply chain to get illegals into this country.
 
108Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Feb 06, 2006, 10:40
Happens here as well. School boards and local government politicos are elected, however. Find out who raised the taxes and raise a stink.
 
109Seattle Zen
      ID: 3415339
      Tue, Feb 21, 2006, 10:54
 
110Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Tue, Feb 21, 2006, 11:49
Not only is that cartoon dead on but it neglects the issue that war expenses largely aren't included I believe.
 
111Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Feb 21, 2006, 11:52
nice, Zen.
 
112Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 01:56
Kuwaiti Baghdad Embassy Contractor Gets More Lucrative Contracts

WASHINGTON — The Kuwaiti contractor that's building the new U.S. Embassy in Baghdad — behind schedule and plagued by allegations of shoddy construction and safety flaws— is still winning lucrative new contracts to build U.S. diplomatic installations overseas.

Late last month, First Kuwaiti General Trading & Contracting Co. was part of a team that won a $122 million State Department contract to build a U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia , according to contract documents.


$122 million for a consulate, a few offices that OK visas, awarded to a company with a track record of incompetence, budget overruns and illegal workers?

Madness.