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| Posted by: Baldwin
- [4261155] Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 13:45
Here is the news you are likely to hear.:
"People from UNRWA are screaming about the death of Iain Hook, brushing aside Israeli claims that Palestinian gunmen were firing at IDF troops from inside the UN compound:"
Rene Aquarone, a spokeswoman for the U.N. agency, said Tuesday in Geneva that Hook was shot in the back while he was trying to arrange for the evacuation of U.N. staff, and that the Israelis prevented an ambulance from reaching him for some time.
Paul McCann, another U.N. spokesman, said allegations that Palestinian gunmen were inside the compound were "incredible." The compound is sealed by an 8-foot cement block wall topped with another 6 feet of fencing, and closed to anyone without U.N. permission
Here is the part the media doubtless won't report:
"Hook himself apparently called the IDF shortly before he was shot, to tell them that Palestinians were breaking into the compound.
The term the caller used to describe the youth was "shabab," an Arabic term for youth that often refers to armed gangs."
[IDF Capt. Peter] Lerner's voice mail service automatically dated the call at 12:53 p.m. on Friday, less than an hour before Hook was shot and killed. The caller said, '“'Hi Peter, it's Iain here. I'm just making a progress report, really. We're pinned down in the compound. The shabab [armed Palestinian youths - B] have knocked a hole in the wall, which I'm not happy about at all. I'm trying to keep them out, and I will just keep my people pinned down in the corner until I hear from you. OK? Over." |
| | | 1 | Perm Dude Leader
ID: 89321319 Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 13:51
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Why's he saying "over" in a phone call?
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| | | 2 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Wed, Nov 27, 2002, 17:09
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PD
I have no idea unless he spends so much time on radio links that it was his habit.
For some reason this story didn't get quite as much coverage or indignation as Hick's killing and it was intentional.
"I was sitting in the back seat, my male colleague drove, and the female colleague sat next to him," Turkish observer Capt. Hussein Osam Salam told Israel Radio. "We saw a Palestinian wearing a police uniform, armed with a Kalashnikov, standing in the middle of the road. He pointed the weapon at us and fired. We called out that we are from TIPH."
Despite the fact that their vehicle was clearly marked in red with the organization's logo, the Palestinian continued to shoot, Salam said. "My colleagues were hit. The driver's blood splashed on my face, and I was hit, too. He emptied his magazine, didn't check to see if we were all dead, and fled."
Ever heard about that one? I hadn't.
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| | | 3 | Kootro
ID: 50949117 Fri, Nov 29, 2002, 16:47
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Where do you get yours news from, Baldwin? Especially your news containing the "Over". It sounds very unbiased.
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| | | 4 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Fri, Nov 29, 2002, 21:07
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Kootro
That is a direct quote. Either find a source that claims the phone call was never made, significant context is missing or that the transcript is in error. Claiming it is a 'biased quote' is a ridiculous statement.
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| | | 5 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 03:10
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No wolf has ever attacked a human in North America
Ever heard that line? I had and I just accepted it as an unusual biological oddity. Wolves in European history had very much a history of human attacks but it seemeed not so in the 'New World'.
Then comes this result from the site of a recent wolf release in Arizona...
sensed danger near the camp, went looking, and discovered two recently released Mexican wolves lurking close to the tent behind a thicket of undergrowth-too close for Buck's protective instincts. He found the wolves exactly where the younger daughter was getting ready to build a playhouse. As Buck confronted the wolves, Helen was several yards away from camp near a stream, reading. "I sensed something wrong, horribly wrong. It was as if a black dread swept over me. I began running toward the tent and screaming, 'Dick, come quick.'" This camping trip was to be a celebration of Richard's retirement as a U.S. Postal Service letter carrier and the family's newfound freedom. Camp was set up late on a chill April evening, near a well-traveled tourist route, in a spot they had camped for the last 20 years. The following morning Richard was up early, sawing wood for the campfire and tent stove. "I felt something funny, like something was watching me," Richard remembers. "I looked around and saw what I thought at first was a dog. It was close, low to the ground and was stalking me. Then I saw it had a collar and a transmitter box. I assumed it was a hybrid wolf. I noticed a second one in the trees. I thought they had been released in a wilderness area far to the north, near Alpine." He walked to the tent, woke the family, told them they had wolves in camp, and loaded his wife's rifle. They moved outside the tent and spotted the wolves 30 or 40 yards away. They yelled and made noise, which partially worked. The wolves backed off, but as Richard recalls, "They acted more like dogs than wildlife unaccustomed to humans." Later they heard howling which they assumed was about a half-mile away. "We didn't break camp and leave," Richard explains, "because we thought the wolves were just passing through." After breakfast, Richard began the girls' lessons and Helen left to read. Almost an hour later, he heard his wife of 23 years screaming. "I stepped out of the tent and she told me to get the rifle." They could hear the sounds of Buck shrieking as he fought for his life with the wolves. Richard began yelling to run them off. One wolf detached from the fray and ran away, but, as Richard chillingly reminisces, "All of a sudden, a wolf came around a tree toward us, and not in a walk but in a run. That's when I shot. I was thinking how fast wolves could run and I couldn't let him get any closer." Richard's shots stopped the wolf less than 50 feet away from his family. "I didn't have time to get scared. All I could think was, they release five or six at one time and I didn't know how many more were out there. When it was all over...then...I was so, so scared." Buck staggered out of the undergrowth and came between Richard and Helen on three legs. "He's moving under his own power and not dragging his guts," Richard remembers thinking. Buck was seriously mauled with several deep gashes and a badly shattered front leg.
The compassionate response from the enviro-fascists was a firestorm of media vilification directed towards the family that was attacked.
Environmentalist groups were enraged that FWS did not prosecute Humphrey, and they took their views public with the help of willing and often inaccurate media. Richard and his family watched helplessly as a sly leak in FWS released inflammatory, slanted information, and green activists convicted him in a kangaroo court frenzy of newspaper and television interviews. "REAL MEN DON'T KILL WOLVES" charged a bumper sticker printed and supplied to the public by Tucson-based, Wildlife Damage Group. "Federal Wildlife officials are lying and covering up the truth about the killing. The whole so-called official account of this is a lie. I don't believe any of it, not at all," spokesperson Nancy Zierenberg angrily stated to the Tucson Citizen. "We've got to make an example of this guy," demanded Bobbie Holaday of Preserve Arizona's Wolves. "There is no excuse. It is totally illegal." Before the facts in the shooting or even Humphrey's name were released, the Southwest Center for Biological Diversity (SWCBD) pressed a demand for indictment. In a series of interviews with the Tucson Citizen, their spokesman, Peter Galvin accused, "This whole thing has turned out to be a travesty. The fact they have failed to prosecute is just another indication that the U.S. government is not making wolf recovery a priority. We are now examining our legal options."
Galvin threatened to charge FWS with "dereliction of duty" because they did not charge the killer. He further indicated they might seek legal action against the shooter. SWCBD used their web site, and perhaps the FWS leak, to further polarize the public by reporting, "The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service continues to investigate the killing. They apparently do not believe the shooter's story that the wolf attacked his dog. Even if the dog had been attacked, it would not legally or morally justify killing a severely endangered species. It is looking more and more like the killing was malicious, not just ignorant."
Ahh but maybe it is the deliberate release of Mexiacn wolf-dog hybrids that is maliciously negligent.
"It was late afternoon when we arrived and began setting up camp," Richard recounts. "There was nothing posted. I had heard about the release program, but all publicity indicated it was far to the north in a wilderness area."
They had no way of knowing that the release pens, where wolves were being fed road-kill twice per week by FWS, were not more than a mile from their camp. FWS had guaranteed in public meetings that "Notice of general wolf locations will be publicized." If they had followed through with their pledges to the public, the Humphreys' calamitous situation would not have occurred. "Had there been signs identifying the area as a wolf release site," Richard acknowledges, "we would have never camped there!" After spending years and almost $3 million on the wolf release program, why would FWS release dangerous predators so close to civilization and a major highway without posting warnings? Why would they choose an area traveled by large numbers of tourists where camping was common? One reason is that FWS contends that wolves aren't dangerous. Their official line is, "There are no documented cases of wolves attacking and killing or severely injuring people in North America." One wonders how much actual research went into that statement. Recently documented attacks by wolves on humans were available in several newspapers and in historical documents at the very time FWS made their doubtful statement. (See sidebar.) Conceivably, Mr. Humphrey was under criminal investigation for killing an animal technically not a wolf. The science behind the Mexican wolf release program is labeled as tainted by several biologists. They suggest FWS released genetically-flawed animals, which are not really wolves, but rather hybrids. The agency refutes the opposing reports by quoting their own science. If the animals that attacked the Humphrey family were wolf-dog hybrids, attacks on humans were likely and well documented. Even Wolf Park, staunch defender of wolves, circulates wolf-dog warnings. "A person, especially a child who tripped and fell, or who is moaning, crying, or screaming, may be considered wounded prey and attacked. Grave injuries, even death, are all too frequent in such cases." In a current effort to ban wolf-dogs in Virginia, the Humane Society sent fact-sheets to Virginians urging them to contact their legislature to ban wolf-dogs. The literature portrays wolf-dogs as potential killers and claims attacks are disturbingly common. Six grinding, nervous weeks after the shooting, the nightmare was finally over for the father and husband who simply defended his family. He was informed no charges would be filed.
Writer's postscript:
"I wanted to really feel what the Humphrey family felt when a wolf rushed at them," he said, "so I called my neighbor who has a hybrid wolf and asked if I could get in the pen. He let me. The wolf was on a long chain and promptly charged me. The fear that involuntarily ran through my veins was instantaneous and left me weak. When I interviewed Kieran Suckling, loyal champion of the wolf-release program and director of the Southwest Center for Biological Diversity, he stated that regardless of circumstances, Mr. Humphrey should be indicted. I recounted my 'Wolf Pen' interview and sincerely extended Mr. Suckling the same opportunity, adding, "Without the chain of course." Oddly I thought, for a person who believes harmony with beasts is protection from them, he sure declined in a hurry.
They would never enter a pen with a wolf-dog hybrid but they'd drop a pack in your back yard and expect you to not defend yourself.
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| | | 6 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 11:26
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I've never heard that no wolf has ever attacked a human in North America. I'm not sure what you are getting at, as this is not a story about a wolf attacking a human, though they did get dangerously close. If by pasting this story into this thread you are saying that mainstream media caters to the leftist environmentalists even in cases where they appear to be overimposing their cause by not reporting on incidents such as these, this story from May, 2000 should make you feel better.
Kelley cited the recent attack of a 6-year-old boy by a wolf as evidence that the state should do more to thin out its wolf population.
Or were you just using this as an opportunity to chastise "enviroweenies" in general?
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| | | 7 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 711391010 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 11:40
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I think you got it on the second guess, MITH. ;)
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| | | 8 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 108231015 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 11:59
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I'm not sure which is the more predictable kneejerk reaction:
Baldwin jumping on any perceived left leaning media coverage or MITH and yanke8ter piling on Baldwin after he posts.
;)
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| | | 9 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 12:13
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MITH - 6
That story you linked is disgusting. Aerial hunting of wolves? Reminds me of the "sport" of shooting buffalo from trains in the Wild West just to watch them fall.
Baldwin
I got two things from that "story". First, AZ officials really should place signs around the drop sights for the wolves. Secondly, are these real Mexican wolves or wolf-dog hybrids? I have a REAL hard time believing that these biologists would be so stupid as to release what amounts to muts into the wild.
I support the reintroduction of wolves into the wild out here. Screw those knuckledragging rancher clowns who hate the wild. Maybe this family shouldn't be prosecuted, but they were stupid enough to bring their dog out camping with them. Defending your dog is not an excuse to kill endangered species. Don't believe for a moment that the wolf was attacking them.
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| | | 10 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 711391010 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 12:15
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It's called a scrum. 8'
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| | | 11 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 13:24
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Maybe this family shouldn't be prosecuted, but they were stupid enough to bring their dog out camping with them.
and just exactly what was 'stupid' about bringing your dog along on a camping trip? Particularly, a trip onto a well travelled and oft used camping area.
As for the killing of the animal in defense of the dog. Should Dad have waited for the pack to kill and eat the dog, then move onto a child? Allowing first of course, that the attack has to take place, therefore you cannot defend until after your childs throat has been ripped apart. SZ, you and I have parted ways on many topics, but on this one, you are dead wrong.
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| | | 12 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 13:51
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Hey, Sarge, did you get a chance to talk to the wolves? That's quite the assumption there, that the "pack" of wolves was planning to move on to the child next.
I'll tell you what is stupid about bringing your dog on a camping trip out West: Rattle snakes, coyotes, wolves, mountain lions, and in some areas, bears. This ain't Iowa, it is well known that you shouldn't bring your dog along wilderness trails.
Fido is not allowed in the backcountry--not even on a leash. Dogs are great, but not only do they have a tendency to chase wildlife (what dog could resist the opportunity to run after a moose calf and her cow) but following scenario can be common: dog runs up or off trail, finds bear, makes bear angry, runs back to you-angry bear following, you are confronted with a situation in which the bear is already in an aggressive, potential attack mode and you are the next creature in its line of sight. If that scenario doesn't effectively demonstrate the inadvisability of Fido in the backcountry, note that Yellowstone has excellent coverage of the backcountry with ranger patrols and they will give you a ticket.
Don't bring your dogs.
There is a strong possibility that your pet could become prey for a bear, coyote, owl, or other predator.
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| | | 13 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 271151013 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 14:10
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I'm with sz on this one. It's too bad about the dog, but there are warnings and regulations on virtualy every official park and un-official guide internet sites, in all the literature, and warnings from people who have gone camping in back country areas. I love my dog and hate to leave her with relatives or at a kennel when we go camping, but it's the smart thing to do.
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| | | 14 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 14:58
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MITH re: #6
I love it when the answer to an either/or question is yes.
SZ
Defending your dog is not an excuse to kill endangered species. Don't believe for a moment that the wolf was attacking them.
Thank you for demonstrating the unreasonable and harsh prejudicial nature of enviroweenies. I couldn't have asked for a better demonstration.
While I also support wolf reintroduction I don't support outlawing self-defense.
If you think the only way you can reintroduce a wolf population with genes appropriate for the SW is by using Mexican wolf-dog hybrids instead of northern strains of pure wolves and then you go introducing them a mile away from a popular campground without proper notification then you deserve to get your project handed back to you in plastic bags.
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| | | 15 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 15:11
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Baldwin - I see why you love Ann Coulter so much
While I also support wolf reintroduction I don't support outlawing self-defense
Couldn't agree more. I support Buck's efforts in his attempt to thwart his attack by wolves, but I simply don't support his owner's killing of the wolf with a gun. Humans were not being attacked, it's that simple.
Thank you for demonstrating the unreasonable and harsh prejudicial nature of ditto-heads like me who don't have rational arguments, rather just childishly call other people 'enviroweenies'
You are welcome :)
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| | | 16 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 15:15
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Humans were not being attacked, it's that simple.
Exactly how did you arrive at this metaphysical certainty?
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| | | 17 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 15:18
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way back when I was a teen, my Uncle used to take me Elk hunting with him in the Rockies. We always took our dogs with us. Why? IF a bear took upon the idea of attacking us, the dogs would buy us enough time to take appropriate measures. Should other wildlife decide to try and make a meal of the dogs, they'd have both to contend with...us, and the dogs. I hold no doubts as to who was coming out on top of any of those scenarios.
As to a camping trip. Yes, there is a difference between Iowa and the 'west'. There is also a difference between LA and rural Nebraska. So what? These folks were camped in a highly travelled area, supposedly miles from the release point, and there wass no sognage barring the dogs or warning of the release.
Final score: Family: 1 Carnivore: 0.
The fat lady has sung, and the family wins.
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| | | 18 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 108231015 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 15:25
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way back when I was a teen
And I'm sure that back in the those days, when all you had to defend yourselves with was black powder muskets and Bowie knives there were a lot more predators running around, as well.
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| | | 19 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 15:31
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sound like my kids MBJ. 'gee Dad, they HAD TV when you were a kid?', or the always popular, "did the aIndians harass you an your way to school?' or the somewhat less frequently asked, "Was it hard dodging those Pony Express riders on your way to the creek for water?'
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| | | 20 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 15:47
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ROFL
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| | | 21 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 16:11
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Sarge
IF a bear took upon the idea of attacking us, the dogs would buy us enough time to take appropriate measures. - Sarge
See in SZ's case the only available measure for his disarmed self would be to hope the bear was disabled by the second hand smoke. 8]
Better bring your dog SZ. Bring em all.
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| | | 22 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 16:13
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Bears and I are on good terms, we're cool - no guns, no dogs, no problems.
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| | | 23 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 16:46
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always carried a double barrelled 12 gauge. sawed off to the minimum legal length of 18 7/8" IIRC and the stock was removed and replaced with custom pistol grips. Loaded with 3" slugs...makes for one incredibly potent wallop at short range. Useless, except as a point defense weapon against a heavy target. (ie bear.)My elk rifle of choice has always been a BAR in a 7mm. Wonderfully flat trajectory out to around 450 yards.
the point behind the dogs? My Uncle hunted with a degree of pride. Spent the first two or so days, tracking. He'd pick out the tracks of the Elk he wanted, then with the aid of the dogs, we'd set about finding that one particular animal. Might see Elk 1/2 dz times, but if we weren't reasonably certain (usually keyed by the dogs reactions) that it was the one we were tracking, no shots were taken. Anyway, dogs are much better at tracking than we humans are, so they were always a part of the 'hunt'.
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| | | 24 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 16:55
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Wow - that's exactly how I do it, too, sarge, on Play Station Elk Hunter III. Never shoot the wrong elk, or my honor level goes way down. When I accidentially shoot the wrong one and my chance of most honorable elk hunter of the year award is down the drain, I'll hop into my truck, drive into town, and start shooting the townsfolk up, head to the Tavern and rape all the waitresses at sawed off shotgunpoint. You should see the honor meter drop doing that!
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| | | 25 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 17:57
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just watch for the virtual wolves SZ. I'd hate to see 'em get the best of ya.
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| | | 26 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 18:20
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Sounds like SZ is the virtual wolf.
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| | | 27 | Pancho Villa
ID: 46113919 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 18:23
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Why is it that so many want to brand anyone who is concerned about the quality of the environment an extremist, a tree-hugger or some other deregatory term? I live in Utah, where man's encroachment into the habitat of the natural wildlife can only be regarded as epidemic. Unless there is a balance brought about by level-headed dialogue, soon bear, deer, elk, cougar and beaver will all be in the same boat as the wolf-virtually non-existant.
The religious majority in this area wave their pro-life banner with pride, which is certainly their right. When they take high powered rifles and kill wildlife for fun, or destroy what little habitat is left with ATVs and snowmobiles, they obviously don't see the hypocrisy in their actions. Calling people who have concerns about these issues enviro-fascists only feeds the flames and gets no one any closer to addressing some very real and pressing problems.
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| | | 28 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 18:27
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Well spoken, Pancho. Couldn't agree more.
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| | | 29 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 271151013 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 18:35
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{sarcasm ON} But there's so much room out there, Pancho. How are habitats being destroyed? {sarcasm OFF}
I concur - the amount of development is staggering. I worked in Bryce Canyon in 98/99 and went back for a visit this year - St George and Cedar City were almost unrecognisible in their expansion and roads that I had known as unimproved just 4 years ago were uniformly paved and painted. It's like we take it for granted that there will always be a little more space left over.
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| | | 30 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 19:07
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actually, I am in full agreement that the environment as a whole, has been ridiculously 'raped' by human kind. Hunters however, most definitely do NOT fit into that category. As a group, you would be hard pressed to find a more conscientious bunch, than amongst those who hunt. (legal hunting is assumed. I dont think well at all, of poachers.)
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| | | 31 | Pancho Villa
ID: 46113919 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 19:20
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That's the point I was trying to make,Sarge, you can't pigeon hole people. Most people who are concerned about the environment are not crazies trying to save every specie of slug or snail. Most hunters pack their kill out and actually eat it and leave a clean area behind them. It is the extreme positions on both sides that make enemies of people whose views might be a lot closer than they realize.
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| | | 32 | Perm Dude Leader
ID: 351131521 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 19:21
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I agree with sarge, although there are yahoos in every group, and with weaponry hunters seem more dangerous than others. That said, there's a huge problem with overdevelopment, pollution, and environmental distress by all sorts of means, which often goes unmentioned by groups traditionally thought of as pro-life. One barb aimed at pro-lifers is that they seem more concerned with government involvement pre-birth than post-birth, and "life" without "quality of" before it is only getting half the equation.
I wouldn't put that on the hunters, however, who are often among the most pro-environment people I know. And most vegans I know would never put themselves in a position to know this.
pd
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| | | 33 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 271151013 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 19:22
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Agreed, sarge. You only have to remember that the creation of the whole national park system was due in no small part to the fact that TR loved to hunt. By and large hunters are some of the best voices for conservation around.
Duck tastes best when it's fresh.
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| | | 34 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 19:46
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so we are agreed then?
since hunters are pro-environment, and hunters are by definition armed...
it might be wise of Baldwin to NOT refer to us as enviro-weenies? *w*
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| | | 35 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 14826271 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 19:55
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I live in Utah, where man's encroachment into the habitat of the natural wildlife
That's the problem I have with many self-identified environmentalists. They treat man like he is some kind of mutant/alien life form that has no place in the "natural" world. It's irrational.
Man is, believe it or not, a naturally occurring phenom on this planet and is part of nature. That's why hunters, fishers and farmers/ranchers are, generally speaking, the best environmentalist - they understand that man is part of nature - and natures most potent organic force - not some freak occurence to be excluded.
You wouldn't see someone like TR or say, ALdo Leopold talking about nature on one side of an equation and man on the other.
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| | | 36 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 271151013 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 19:57
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LOL...dunno sarge, baldwin doesn't appear to have enough points to be baggable. Maybe if we give him a while to fatten up... ;}
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| | | 37 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 19:59
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sorta looks to me like he's already been bagged and tagged.
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| | | 38 | Pancho Villa
ID: 46113919 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 20:31
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RE#35..Who says man has no place in a natural environment? I say man needs to have more respect for the what little land left that is habitable by what little wildlife is left. I don't know where you live, but many(I won't say most) ranchers and farmers in Utah are the absolute worst stewards of the environment with an attitude that they are somehow entitled to treat the land however benefits them economically. Maybe you say it's their land, but if his cattle is defecating in the stream that provides the water you drink, you might feel differently.
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| | | 39 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 22:10
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Well actually Utah is the most beautiful state I have ever seen and I've seen most of them. I know most of it will not be developed because most of it is already Federal property.
The Federal government already owns one third of the land nationally and Utah is in large part federally owned.
Already 43,543,000 million acres are off limits with more being bought or stolen thru restrictions all the time.
But why stop there? Indeed the government has no intention of stopping there.
Here is the roadmap being followed without the slightest hint of democracy involved...
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| | | 40 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 22:12
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OOps, make that 43,543,000 acres.
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| | | 41 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 22:14
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That's in a state that only has 54,338,637 acres. To pretend the state is in the slightest danger of overdevelopement is ludicrous.
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| | | 42 | biliruben Sustainer
ID: 589301110 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 22:37
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Your link points to the fact that you have been shopping for Mississippi Venues, Baldwin.
MBJ - I agree. That said, roads, snow mobiles, ATVs, SUVs and logging trucks aren't "natural", no matter how hard Bush tries to make them protected.
I have no problem at all with folks (including myself) going anywhere they are willing to walk... and take their chances with the predators.
With regard to wolves (or wolf-doggies or whatever they were), I don't have a problem with the shooting if it truly went down like that overly prosaic article claims it did (which I am skeptical of), but they should have to defend their actions in court, just like they would if someone blew away a rott. in NYC.
I wouldn't be surprised if wolves, on rare occasions, decided to go after a human. It just, to my knowledge hasn't happened yet. This suggests its a concern roughly equivalent to shark attacks and much below the danger of pit bulls.
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| | | 43 | Pancho Villa
ID: 46113919 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 23:03
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I came on this site to help my struggling Fantasy hoops team and didn't intend to get wrapped up in this discussion. However, let's establish a few things. Much of the land you're talking about is National Forest, much of which is leased to logging, mineral and other extraction industries as well as used for a variety of recreational activities. Much is under the auspices of the BLM, which can be used for cattle grazing and other multiple uses. Some is the Dugway Proving ground and bombing range(not likely to be developed). Most of it is uninhabitable desert because in this part of the world there's a problem with the amount of available water, a fact lost on the growing metro areas of Las Vegas, Phoenix and, to some extent, Salt Lake. The population of the Wasatch Front has doubled since I moved here in 1985. While it's pretty hard to denigrate thousands of square miles of desert, it's not that hard to destroy what land within the state one would describe as pristine, and to think that overdevelopment is not occurring in these areas is, to quote you, ludicrous.
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| | | 44 | biliruben Sustainer
ID: 589301110 Tue, Dec 10, 2002, 23:19
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Thanks, Pancho. I meant to point out that Baldwin's numbers meant nothing, as the gov't goes out of there way, in fact subsidies, raping of most of these lands.
I got caught up pondering why Baldwin was investing in the Mississippi delta, however. ;)
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| | | 45 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399 Wed, Dec 11, 2002, 10:10
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I'd like to hear Baldwin once and for all define "enviroweenie". In my opinion, it's much like the term, Jesus freak. It might be applicable to those activists who misunderstand or take too far some of their Christian ideals, but clearly offensive to Christians in general. I have to ask, Baldwin, do you really think that most environmental activists, the folks who are reintroducing endangered wildlife into it's natural habitat and working to protect the planet from those who are happy to profit at her expense and trying to find ways to safely undo a century of abuse are enviroweenies? I don't think you do.
Every positive activist effort gets taken too far by someone, and people like Baldwin make sport of seeking out and chastising the few who do. I guess mostly because it is easier to do so than it is to actively support a truly positive movement, even if you are willing to concede such movements do exist. In so doing, however, he carelessly indicts entire movements by barely (or in some cases - not at all) bothering to draw any distinction between the extremists and the more mainstream effort that is more often born out of a genuine desire to make things better.
The resulting problems are that even though the Baldwins of the world might sometimes or even often be correct in their assessment of most people they refer to as "enviroweenies", he succeeds at both dissuading the uninformed (especially those on the political right) from accepting any environmentalist cause as worthwhile and in providing ammunition for those who knowingly choose to disregard the greater and truly important effort for their own personal gain or simple laziness.
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| | | 46 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Wed, Dec 11, 2002, 10:59
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very well spoken MITH. (as usual, someone else's calmer demeanor has enabled them to beter express thoughts I share with them, than my own demeanor would have allowed.)
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| | | 48 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Wed, Dec 11, 2002, 11:34
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You bring up some good points MITH.
I have been thinking all night about creating a 'You may be an enviro-weenie if...' thread ala 'You may be a redneck if...' Jeff Foxworthy.
In brief you don't have to be living in a tree to save it from Georgia Pacific and channeling Gia to be an operational enviroweenie. All you have to do is vote for a Senator who would support The Wildlands Project and would ratify the U.N. Convention on Biological Diversity and you are for all intents and purposes an enviro-weenie. You are operationally an enviro-weenie because the results are the same.
he succeeds at both dissuading the uninformed (especially those on the political right) from accepting any environmentalist cause as worthwhile - MITH
The problem is that the enviro-weenies are running away with the show making cooperation impossible. There is no middle ground with people who believe in their heart of hearts that mankind is the disease and suicide is the answer.
You may not believe that but do you vote for Earth First disciples? Do you fund their organizations? Then that is where your support is leading.
he carelessly indicts entire movements - MITH
Show me a sane environmental group that has not been coopted by Earth First enviroweenies.
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| | | 49 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Wed, Dec 11, 2002, 14:02
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not until you show me a republican group not co-opted by the almighty dollar.
my problem with the Republicans as a whole when it comes to the environment, I dont believe for one second that the 'big picture' is being looked at. In pursuit of the upcomings quarters stock yield, all decisions are made. What about our kids? Their kids? etc etc the long term needs to be more of an issue, than 'my next dividend report' has become.
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| | | 50 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 108231015 Wed, Dec 11, 2002, 14:09
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not until you show me a republican group not co-opted by the almighty dollar.
The National Right to Life Organization.
There, that didn't take long.
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| | | 51 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399 Wed, Dec 11, 2002, 14:37
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MBJ, Why are you a Democrat?
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| | | 52 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 108231015 Wed, Dec 11, 2002, 14:42
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Poltics is local.....
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| | | 53 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Fri, Dec 13, 2002, 15:20
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Wow this is my #1 issue and the media blacked this major developement out so completely I just now found out about it.
the president of the United States officially found Sudan's National Islamic Front government in Khartoum guilty of genocide on October 21, I naively expected there would be significant press play. The New York Times had a photograph of the signing of the Sudan Peace Act the next day on page A18 with only a two-line caption and no mention of the key word genocide.
The name of that internationally recognized crime was also omitted from The Washington Post's brief story on page A7 and in a longer Associated Press report. Jon Sawyer of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch got it right in a substantial story on October 22. From what I was able to see on television—broadcast and cable—that medium was clueless. But then, both television and much of the print press have also been clueless about state terrorism against Africans in Zimbabwe and Liberia, among other tyrannies on that continent.
The provisions of the law, signed by George W. Bush after years of pressure, have been summarized by Nina Shea of Freedom House, who has long been one of the pivotal anti-slavery forces in Washington:
"[The law] immediately authorizes aid to the south, with or without Khartoum's approval, in the amount of $300 million over the next three years. . . . [It] requires the president to certify every six months that Khartoum and the rebel Sudanese People's Liberation Army are negotiating in good faith [and] specifies four sanctions against Khartoum if the president certifies that Khartoum is not negotiating in good faith, or has 'unreasonably interfered with humanitarian efforts.'
"The sanctions include: opposing international loans and credits to Khartoum; downgrading diplomatic relations; denying Khartoum access to oil revenues; and seeking a UN Security Council resolution to impose an arms embargo on Khartoum. [The act] also requires the administration to report on oil financing [of the government by foreign corporations], acts of genocide, and on the obstruction of aid delivery by Khartoum."
Not reported by the media was what George W. Bush said at the signing as he turned to the New Abolitionists around him: "There are times when the government has to be prodded. I know that if we don't do what we're supposed to [now], you'll be out there prodding us again."
A principal prodder of Bush, and of Clinton before him, is Joe Madison ("the Black Eagle"), host of a syndicated radio show out of WOL in Washington. For years a member of the NAACP's national board, Joe participated twice in the redeeming of black slaves in Sudan, and was also arrested while handcuffed to the door of the Sudanese consulate in Washington, along with longtime civil rights leader Walter Fauntroy and influential Washington insider Michael Horowitz of the Hudson Institute. (Their attorneys were Kenneth Starr and Johnnie Cochran.) Joe also prodded Jesse Jackson to break his long silence on slavery in Sudan.
After the signing of the Sudan Peace Act, Joe Madison told me that Colin Powell had played a major role in moving Congress and the White House to finally take action. __________________________________________________
There is perhaps no greater tragedy on the face of the earth today than the tragedy that is unfolding in the Sudan. —Secretary of State Colin Powell, May 7, 2001
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| | | 55 | Perm Dude Leader
ID: 351131521 Thu, Dec 26, 2002, 22:44
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Baldwin reads Henthoff? Wow, there is hope!
Our policies on Sub-Sahara Africa have been awful, and it doesn't seem to matter which party is in power. I give Clinton some credit for trying to help in Rwanda, but he should have been speaking about it months beforehand. Western Africa, along the coast, is just one country after another of cruel dictatorships, raping the natural resources of their country as they beat down rebellion after rebellion.
The worst evils in the world are occurring without abatement in Africa. We need more Joe Madisons to prod our elected officials. We all need to be Joe Madisons.
pd
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| | | 56 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Fri, Dec 27, 2002, 01:20
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I have read a number of quality pieces by Hentoff this year. I swear there are a few of the more honest liberals that have started to realize the moral and intellectual vaccuum they have been inhabiting and are turning more conservative. I'm not sure if he and Hitchens are honest enuff to resist the next big scam, PoMo [postmodernism] international progressivism or not but one can hope.
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| | | 57 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 04:43
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This will prolly make the news but I had nowhere else to dump it...
Recycled steel from the World Trade Center will be used to build part of a new U.S. warship, according to defense contractor Northrop Grumman.
The ship is to be named the New York, in honor of the almost 2,800 people who died in the attacks of Sept. 11 2001, Dan Knecht, said a spokesman for the firm.
Steel is set to be shipped to Northrop's shipyard in Pascagoula, Mississippi, for construction to begin in the middle of next year. The 684-foot ship should be ready for service in 2007.
The recycled steel from the Twin Towers, if it meets quality standards, will be used to form the ship's "stem bar", Knecht told Reuters. That is part of the ship's bow, where the vessel cuts the water. Now that is some attractive symetry. Turn that steel around and drop troops off at the terrorists' door with it.
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| | | 59 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 03:03
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From Instapundit -
Another item to note from Paris: On 16 December 2002 the Conseil d'Administration of Université Paris VI passed a motion recommending the rupture of the European Union's scientific cooperation agreement with Israel. A similar resolution is on the agenda of the meeting of the Université Paris VII Conseil d'Administration, which is to take place on January 7. This is in effect a call for boycott; the proposal would institutionalize the exclusion of Israeli researchers from scientific committees, conferences and scientific journals. It would kill international research projects involving Israeli scientists and academic hosting programs for university faculty. It would ban international student exchange programs. This has attracted surprisingly little attention from the press here, and none at all in the US, as far as I can tell. Is anyone going to stand up and point out that this is an absolute f***ing outrage?
Note also that the rabbi who was stabbed was a prominent LEFT-WING PACIFIST. The French press has thus far been tactfully circumspect about the assailant's probable ethnic origin, but earlier that morning, the synagogue received this communication: "Nous aurons la peau du rabbin Gabriel Farhi et vengerons le sang de nos frères palestiniens. -...- Nous lancerons contre lui le djihad, châtiment réservé aux ennemis de notre cause -...-. Après avoir mis feu à sa synagogue, nous nous vengerons directement sur lui."*
*"We will have the skin of Rabbi Gabriel Farhi and we will venge the blood of our Palestinian brothers -- we will hurl jihad against him, a punishment reserved for the enemies of our cause -- after setting fire to his synagogue, we will venge ourselves upon him directly."
I, for one, am inclined to view the two events as importantly connected. From those wonderful people who delivered S.A. to the necklacers in similar fashion.
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| | | 60 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 04:17
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Arnaud de Borchgrave has always impressed me as someone with few illusions and a keen insight. He sees better than most of the media what the west is up against in this piece -The United States, said Mr. Powell, was prepared to spend $29 million for...what is arguably one of the most critically urgent tasks for draining the swamp of terrorism — $35 million to reform Pakistan's madrassas (Koranic schools) where some 5 million young boys, including contingents from most Muslim countries, have been taught to hate America, Israel and India during the past decade, all generously bankrolled by Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi clergy.
Fifteen months after September 11, there are still 750,000 Pakistani boys in some 11,000 madrassas where they are also taught that jihad (holy war) is the noblest of human endeavors. And the imams and mullahs in charge of the schools have told government inspectors and reformers to butt out.
You don't get much traction in the Mideast for $29 million. There is still little realization in the Bush administration that democracy in most Arab countries would bring the terrorists — or at least their sympathizers — to power in a subterfuge known as one-person-one-vote-one-time. That was almost the case in Algeria a decade ago when Muslim extremists won a free election fair and square. The army stepped in to deprive them of their victory at the ballot box — and bullets have been flying ever since, along with bombs and Molotov cocktails, with a death toll of well over 100,000.
U.S. policy-makers have convinced themselves that the Muslim world's penchant for blue jeans and Big Macs means the masses are already part of the global village even though their leaders are still living in palatial nationalist cocoons. This is a dangerous optical illusion. The masses relate, not to America's globalism, but to Islam's global umma. Poll after poll, from Maylasia in Southeast Asia to Morocco in North Africa, show the masses in rhythmic tune with Hollywood's steady drumbeat of movies that portrayed the ugly American operative as licensed to kill by the CIA, NSA, FBI and NSC.
The Arab world in particular has been conditioned to believe that Israel's Mossad, with CIA assistance, organized the September 11 attacks and that the 15 Saudi hijackers were recruited by Israeli agents posing as members of al Qaeda. No less a personage than Saudi Arabia's minister of the interior (including the police), Prince Naif bin Abdul Aziz, publicly stated recently that Israel had engineered the terrorist attacks against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. This is now believed by an overwhelming majority of Muslims throughout the world, including many of the imams who run some 2,000 mosques in the United States.
Al Qaeda has had a very good year with America's one-size-fits-all free elections mantra. Two of Pakistan's four provinces — Northwest Frontier Province (NWFP) and Baluchistan — fell to Islamist extremist control in last October's national elections.
Bahrain's recent elections, cited favorably by Mr. Powell, were boycotted by the tiny island's largest political group, the Shi'ite al Wefaq, because of what its leaders described as a powerless legislature. Other Islamists still managed to garner 19 seats in the 40-seat body.
Two highly-placed Saudi non-royals — one of them close to ailing King Fahd — said, not for attribution, that if a free election were held in Saudi Arabia and Osama Bin Laden were running as a candidate for prime minister, the world's most wanted terrorist would win in a landslide. The Saudi masses are even more conservative Wahhabis than the royal family, and Bin Laden derives his popularity from his strict adherence to a rigid interpretation of Prophet Mohammed's five pillars of Islam. In Pakistan, more than 80 percent of male adults polled believe Bin Laden is a "freedom fighter," not a "terrorist."
Jordan's King Abdullah follows public opinion closely. There is mounting evidence that genuine free elections in his country would easily give fundamentalists a decisive edge. The king, a former special forces commander, recently had to dispatch some of these same forces, along with tanks and helicopter gunships, to impose a curfew in the city of Maan, 125 miles south of Amman, normally a peaceful Bedouin town loyal to the pro-Western monarchy.
A local extremist preacher had declared the king an "unbeliever" and was wanted for questioning in the assassination of Lawrence Foley, an American diplomat. The fugitive imam, Muhammad Shalabi, had also issued a fatwa for a holy war to be unleashed if the United States attacks Iraq. He managed to slip through the army's blockade of the town, but Jordanian security forces caught the two self-confessed al Qaeda operatives, one Libyan and the other Jordanian, who had killed Mr. Foley in his carport as he was about to drive to the embassy...
There is a reluctance in Washington that borders on paralysis to face up to the principal obstacle to rapprochement with the Arab world in particular and the larger Muslim community in general, and that is the conviction that the United States and Israel are now as one to prevent the emergence of a Palestinian state.
Muslims represent one fifth of humanity and they are a majority in 63 countries. [about a third of all countries - B] Islam is the world's fastest growing religion. Daily television news coverage humiliates Arabs as they watch, powerless, Israeli tanks and gunships beating up on Palestinians while the U.S. focuses on attacking another Arab state. Al Jazeera, the Qatar-based Arab television network with the highest ratings in the region, describes Palestinian suicide-bombers as "commando raids against the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
Arab commentators are convinced the Bush administration has dropped even the pretense of an even-handed Middle Eastern policy. The Israeli elections next month — and the likely continuation of Ariel Sharon as Prime Minister — will present Washington with its next opportunity to ditch Tartuffery and regain its reputation as an honest broker. But a regime change war on Iraq is bound to further delay the day when President Bush, as a peacemaker, can work his magic in the Middle East.
Until then, Mr. Powell's $29 million in democratic seed money to close what he called "the hope gap" and open up Arab countries to the democratic process will have all the impact of 29 pennies in Rome's Trevi fountain. A wish list is no substitute for the forceful shaping of a Mideastern settlement the present crisis requires. I am unclear exactly how the madrasses could be reformed without wholesale Pak government takeover and perhaps this is even what is being purchased. Those details will be interesting.
I agree with him that the issue of giving Palestinians their own state [which was in the original UN land split after all] has a way of falling into a memory hole in Washington and in USA media that just mystifies me.
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| | | 61 | Perm Dude Leader
ID: 50048319 Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 09:59
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I agree, Baldwin. The Palestinians themselves have helped foster this. A certain amount of propoganda needs to go out about how much better off the Palestinians would be if they'd just taken the damn deal. Certainly Arafat would not longer be around.
That whole "ready for democracy" problem is very interesting to me. In the US we allow people the freedom to make bad choices (after all, the country music industry depends upon it). Somehow there needs to be democracy incubators set up in countries entering a democratic era, in which, no matter the candidate or party, it is the system which guides the leaders, not the other way around. No Peru, for instance.
$29 million isn't much at all, as you point out. But from a President who openly mocked nation-building during his run for the presidency, it's a good start.
pd
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| | | 62 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Jan 07, 2003, 07:57
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The sad state of Venezuela does not get the coverage it deserves.Air Force Maj. Juan Diaz Castillo, formerly a pilot for the Venzuelan leader, was smuggled to Miami last week where he is warning the U.S. of what he calls Chavez's dismissal of the constitution and his ties to terrorism in collaboration with Cuban dictator Fidel Castro.
"I must warn America about Chavez," Diaz said. "He is a danger, not just to his own people but to the whole region."
Chavez has traveled to Iraq, Iran, Syria, North Korea, China and Libya to build ties and is supporting FARC, the revolutionary groups in Colombia opposed by U.S. troops.
The military resisters note that Chavez disappeared during the 48 hours after the 9-11 attacks. After emerging, he told foreign reporters he opposed terrorism but said on Venezuelan television that the "United States brought the attacks upon itself, for its arrogant imperialist foreign policy."
Chavez expressed admiration for the attacks in private, according to Gen. Pedro Pereira, formerly the highest-ranking general in the Venezuelan air force and still a Chavez loyalist in 2001.
"With 9-11, bin Laden showed the whole world that he was a force to be reckoned with. This impressed Hugo to no end," the general remembered, according to MilitaresDemoraticos.com.
Diaz says Chavez transferred $1 million to the Taliban through Venezuelan Ambassador Walter Marquez in New Delhi, designating $900,000 to al-Qaida for its relocation efforts and $100,000 to the then-Afghan government for food and clothing, according to MilitaresDemocraticos.com.
Diaz, who piloted the president's Airbus jet, said he was put in charge of an initial plan in September 2001 to transport cargo to the Taliban via three Hercules C-130 airplanes. According to Diaz, however, Chavez's chief of staff decided instead to only send money after learning that the cost of transportation outweighed the value of the goods.
Diaz said that Chavez sent the aid to open a direct channel of communication with al-Qaida.
"It was a way of telling Osama bin Laden that he had a friend in Hugo Chavez," he said
The Venezuelan leader had tried unsuccessfully to contact al-Qaida through Libya, Diaz said.
The cash was transferred in late September to Marquez in India, since Venezuela does not have representation in Afghanistan or Pakistan. Diaz said that on Oct. 3, 2001, a Venezuelan government representative contacted Kris Janowski of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in Pakistan to inform him of a humanitarian delivery for the Taliban to create a cover story for the cash designated for al-Qaida.
Diaz said the cash bore fruit and a line of communication opened.
"In the last few months of 2001, and all throughout 2002, more and more Arabs started arriving" in Caracas,
The Arabs received special treatment from Chavez, Otaiza and Ramon Rodriguez Chacin, former head of the Interior and Justice Ministry under Chavez and now, according to the Venezuelan press, a "party boss in the Chavez political machine" who has operated under multiple identities.
_________________________________________
The recently published global attitude survey by the Pew Research Center in Washington shows 82 percent of Venezuelans have a favorable attitude toward the U.S., the highest of all 44 countries polled.
Also, 79 percent favor the U.S. war on terrorism, with just 20 percent opposed.
[unfortunately their leader, who has publicly stated he will not allow himself to be removed for 20 years no matter what, does not agree with his people. - B]
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| | | 63 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Tue, Jan 07, 2003, 14:03
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Baldwin - post 62
Another WND complete load of libelous $hit.
Here is what is really going on in Venezuela.
All of these “desk reporters” and others like them, copying from each other and from a corrupt Commercial Media in Venezuela (instead of doing real reporting by interviewing real people and wearing out their own precious shoe leather) tried to portray a series of orchestrated media stunts and some isolated acts of sabotage by the former ruling class as a massive nationwide action with popular support. It wasn’t. It was an “imagined strike,” simulated, invented - a fantasy repeated daily over three weeks so often that many people began to believe that it was reality - the pinnacle example of everything that is wrong with “pack journalism” in this day and age. Asking for Mommy Bush or Daddy Military to trash their Constitution and remove, by force, the president twice elected by their country’s majority. They have cynically – and led by oligarchs of Commercial Media who write the script – tried to provoke the conditions for a coup d’etat.
The big business-led coup in Venezuela failed.
What's going on in Venezuela? The white ologarchy is trying to remove Chavez because he is not a perfect market-driven capitalist. He is a populist who is elected by the native majority. There may be groups of "strikers" who grab the headlines, but they are dwarfed by the counter protestors who support Hugo. The made-up quotes in your post are sick lies meant to destroy the character of a populist leader. Same old story.
On May Day, starting out from the Hilton Hotel, 200,000 blondes marched East through Caracas' shopping corridor along Casanova Avenue. At the same time, half a million brunettes converged on them from the West. It would all seem like a comic shampoo commercial if 16 people hadn't been shot dead two weeks earlier when the two groups crossed paths.
The May Day brunettes support Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez. They funnelled down from the ranchos, the pustules of crude red-brick bungalows, stacked one on the other, that erupt on the steep, unstable hillsides surrounding this city of five million. The bricks in some ranchos are new, a recent improvement in these fetid, impromptu slums where many previously sheltered behind cardboard walls. 'Chávez gives them bricks and milk,' a local TV reporter told me, 'and so they vote for him.'
Chávez is dark and round as a cola nut. Like his followers, Chávez is an 'Indian'. But the blondes, the 'Spanish', are the owners of Venezuela.
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| | | 64 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Jan 07, 2003, 14:45
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Chavez is a full blown communist. Your 'populist' label is ludicrous. I don't think he could win if he honestly presented himself as a communist redrawing his country into a marxist dictatorship which is what he has in fact set about doing.
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| | | 65 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Jan 07, 2003, 14:50
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I really had to laugh at your commie trash link SZ. 'They were acting like children'. ROTFLMAO, the very line Jennings used to describe the 'contract with America victory' over marxist class warfare dems here at home.
Yeah I guess the oil stopped flowing because 'there was no strike really'. A truly entertaining ride thru an alternate universe SZ.
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| | | 66 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Tue, Jan 07, 2003, 15:44
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Ok, Baldwin, you think he is a "commie" who shouldn't be in power even though he has been elected fairly twice. Yeah, just remove him, he is "dangerous".
Yeah, I guess the people with their hands on the oil spigot are his indiginous supporters, not the wealthy white elite. Can't envision a scenario where the oil owners might cut off the supply, lock out all of the workers, and say "Chavez is behind this, take it to the streets."
Your posts were a truly predictable ride through the Fox News/WND universe.
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| | | 67 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Jan 07, 2003, 15:55
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I don't suppose his comments that he will not allow himself to be removed by referendum [ballot box] for twenty years sounded benign and 'populist' to you. As long as he's a marxist he's ok in your book, huh Zen?
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| | | 68 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Jan 07, 2003, 16:05
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I bet you even think the 'rich' are sending out their hired help to bang on pots and pans. Hilarious!
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| | | 69 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Tue, Jan 07, 2003, 18:23
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marxist class warfare dems here at home
Yes, once again we see that everyone to the Left of Nixon is a Marxist.
I see why you take such glee in this Monied Interest coup down in Venezuela. Unlike the horrible farce called "Due Process" here in the States, the "righteous" in Venezuela can seize power against the "Marxist" where the "righteous" here were thwarted in that same attempt against our own "Marxist" (Clinton).
his comments that he will not allow himself to be removed by referendum [ballot box] for twenty years
Bull$hit. He simply said that he will not call for a national referendum before his TERM is up. What would GWBush say to the suggestion that he should have to face re-election back in 2001 right after the Supreme Court five annointed him President?
Baldwin, explain to me again how the extraction of oil from a third world country that only benefits a handful of elite and many outside corporations is far more favorable than a more equitable distribution? Oh how I LOVE your "Market Capitalism for Dummies" rote responses!
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| | | 70 | culdeus Donor
ID: 461027711 Fri, Jan 10, 2003, 12:00
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Politician Caught Up in Vampire Rumors Fri January 10, 2003 07:52 AM ET BLANTYRE, Malawi (Reuters) - Hundreds of angry Malawians hounded a senior political figure from his house and stoned him late Wednesday, accusing him of harboring vampires. Blantire Urban Governor Eric Chiwaya, a member of the ruling United Democratic Front, was the latest victim of a bizarre rumor that the country's government is colluding with vampires to collect human blood for international aid agencies. Bearing severe cuts to his face and body, he told Reuters from his hospital bed that a crowd had hailed him with stones and other missiles, chanting "vampire" and threatening to kill him. Chiwaya said he knew some of his assailants, adding that political opponents were trying to discredit him and the government. The vampire rumors have sparked several vigilante attacks on suspected bloodsuckers in recent weeks, despite official attempts to stop the rumor. One man was stoned to death, and three priests were attacked by angry villagers in the south. Political tensions are already high in Malawi. President Bakili Muluzi's attempts to stay in office for another five-year term have already sparked protests, while many face starvation in the face of a regional food crisis.
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| | | 71 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 108231015 Fri, Jan 10, 2003, 12:11
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I guess in Malawi, when they say that politicians are bloodsuckers, they really mean it.
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| | | 72 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399 Fri, Jan 10, 2003, 13:33
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...ba-dum-bum
MBJ will be here all week, ladies and gentlemen...
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| | | 73 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Fri, Jan 10, 2003, 13:42
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Don't forget to tip your waitress.
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| | | 74 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Fri, Jan 10, 2003, 16:10
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SZ re:#69
Marxism has proven the only thing it can deliver is an equal distribution of poverty and brutality.
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| | | 75 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 14826271 Fri, Jan 10, 2003, 20:28
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A Muslim-American hero
A Muslim gas station attendant was being hailed as a hero for saving a Brooklyn synagogue yesterday from being torched by a man he described as "totally out of control."
Now let's just hope he doesn't catch hell from his community.
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| | | 76 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 11:20
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MADD is out of control.
I fell out with MADD when BAC levels they were demanding would obviously snare only the most moderate social drinking. I remember when Jack Lalane (sp?) lost his license that was just the last straw for me. No way you could convince me this health fanatic would abuse alcohol.
Now I find this support for my earlier conclusions.MADD’s activities were originally geared towards legitimate educational and victim support oriented functions. MADD’s political focus was geared towards removing chronic/alcoholic drunk drivers from the nation’s highways. Responsible social drinkers who drove home after a wedding or after good conversation with friends at the neighborhood pub were not targets of MADD’s efforts. To the extent that MADD has worked to support victims and to educate the public about legitimate chronic alcoholic/drunk driving issues it should be commended. Unfortunately, in recent years the national MADD organization and most of it’s local chapters have been taken over by ultra-conservative, anti-alcohol extremists who have adopted a political agenda that threatens the second coming of Prohibition.
Instead of focusing on ways to remove the chronic/alcoholic drunk driver from our highways, MADD’s primary focus is upon "drivers who have had something to drink.....
MADD’s modus operandi is to use generalizations, misstatements, scapegoating, distortions of the truth and victimization propaganda to force the federal and state governments to pass increasingly irrational and draconian DUI laws. MADD seeks to clone itself onto local governments (in much the same manner as did the National Socialist Party in Germany during the years following World War I ) by entering into government/private sector "partnerships"; by having it’s propaganda displayed in government buildings; by having it’s logo attached to government vehicles and police uniforms; by giving awards and political support to judges and other public officials who are either afraid of, or who support, their agenda; and by working to require citizens who have been criminalized for DUI to attend mandatory MADD propaganda seminars as a condition of probation.
If MADD’s political agenda is ever fulfilled, no person in the U.S. will be able to drive home after drinking a couple of beers at a ball game or after enjoying wine with a meal at a restaurant without violating the law, risking arrest and being subjected to unlimited civil liability. If MADD’s attempts to criminalize low BAC drivers really saved lives it would be one thing. However, all available valid government data indicates that it does not. Even the principal founder of MADD has left the organization, citing a lack of focus on the real public safety issue, that of getting high BAC chronic/alcoholic drunk drivers off the road. As with so many other worthy causes that I originally supported, this organization has been coopted by unreasonable fascists and must be ridiculed and fought at every turn. [note: neither I nor anyone else in my family or near friends have ever been stopped for DUI. I drink so seldom as to be a near tea totaller]
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| | | 77 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 11:47
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Punditwatch:Helped by interviewer Margaret Carlson of Time, retired Senator Fred Thompson, now a star on “Law and Order,” said on Capital Gang:
"I had to go to Hollywood to get anybody to listen to my political views." - Fred Thompson That's just scary even as a joke.
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| | | 78 | Perm Dude Leader
ID: 89321319 Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 11:55
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Scary that no one in Washington is interested in someone else's political views? Or scary that Hollywood would be interested in a former Congressman's political views?
Sounds like you're scared of many of the wrong things.
pd
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| | | 79 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 56020139 Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 12:08
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RE MADD:
You are 100% dead on that they are out of control and that has been the case for a while. When I used to prosecute a lot of DUI cases I learned to loath MADD. They have uncontested access to the media (no sane politician can oppose them for fear of being labled pro-DUI on the nightly news.)
They somehow manage to get a report of the outcome of every DUI prosectution. If something other than a conviction for DUI (becuase of proof issues, e.g) is plead to - they immediately notify the media and get a "Judge X and Prosecutor Y are pro-DUI" story on the news that night. They have developed into the new Temperance Society.
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| | | 80 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 12:21
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MBJ - yup yup yup
PD - scary that there is truth to the joke that actors have more political clout that US Senators. You aren't seriously for that PD?
Next issue - Guess who got the FBI's award for distinguished performance? Agent Spike Bowman, who denied the Minneapolis office a warrant to search the 20th hijacker Moussaoui's laptop. Guess who didn't get one? Coleen Rowley, who had the goods linking Moussaoui to Osama. She later joked that resistance from Washington was so great there must be a mole from al Qaeda there. - Margaret Carlson So Bowman gets up to 35% of his salary as a bonus for being the roadblock that stopped the prevention of 9/11 and Rowley get's co-person of the year and is lucky to keep her job. If Bush had wanted to make us feel safer he should have replaced Bowman with Rowley and demoted Bowman to tha mailroom, no would prolly screw that up too.
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| | | 81 | Perm Dude Leader
ID: 89321319 Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 12:33
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It isn't necessarily that, Baldwin. If I went to Washington right now, I'd probably be ignored too. But after I left I'm sure I'd get a better reception for my views outside the Beltway.
I don't see it as sinister or scary.
In Fred Thompson's case, he's almost certainly overstating it anyway.
pd
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| | | 82 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399 Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 12:36
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Re: MADD, are you guys so sure their policy has shifted that much over time? I was always under the impression that they were a bit over the top.
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| | | 83 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 12:38
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MITH - Their founder thinks so.
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| | | 84 | Perm Dude Leader
ID: 89321319 Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 12:49
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Interesting news about MADD, MBJ. I've always thought they were a little too focused, to put it mildly.
pd
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| | | 85 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 56020139 Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 13:17
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MITH - I have no idea what their initial, internal policy goals were. I know that that their goals for legal BAC have shifted from .10 BAC to .08 BAC to a new push for zero tolerance BAC. It's been a steady, uninterupted progression.
The representatives of MADD I have dealt with over the years have uniformly possesed a degree of zealotry which I usually only associate with extreme religious fundalmetalists, by which I mean, when presented with facts or postitions that they didn't like their eyes would glaze over and mind would go blank, so as, I guess, to filter out information not in line with their particular paradigm.
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| | | 86 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Jan 14, 2003, 19:27
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For some time I have been concerned about the following phenomenon. Some people who are accused of serious crimes are assumed guilty or more likely to be convicted simply because no one can imagine an innocent person being in such a situation. Conversely some people actually guilty of the most serious crimes go scot-free because no one can believe someone could actually be guilty of something so serious.
I present three examples.
1) I once delivered food to a priest who was later convicted of manufacture of date rape drugs. Now I am no defender of Catholicism as MBJ can attest and in light of the scandals to hit the Catholic church the mind just runs wild upon hearing this story. The kicker is that that drug is also known to be useful in muscle-building and this priest was so into body-building that he had me deliver the food to a gym and not his home. What if the only thing he were guilty of was a lax attitude towards drugs/victimless crimes, ala our own SZ? What would be the chances he could convince anyone that was the case if it was?
2) We all know Pete Townsend is a pedophile now right? Or do we really? I present the following paper written by him six months before his arrest which seems to confirm his seemingly ridiculous alibi that he was 'just researching it' to fight it having been a survivor himself. I have this sad feeling the guy just may be innocent but in a hopeless position. Now I understand that British law says merely having looked at this is criminal but...well read the paper.
3) Conversely this can work just the opposite. The Clintons are guilty of the most mindboggling string of crimes as anyone who honestly and rigorously researches the subject will find out in mountains of evidence [and I am not talking about Monica]and yet the very seriousness of the charges immunizes them amazingly, or is it the media who do so?
Accused celebrities of course have always had to deal with this. The harshness of their examination and judgement is as capricious as the wind.
Someone accused of the unthinkable must be guilty because of course I, John Q. Public cannot face the reality that innocent people like myself face a real risk of being accused [and convicted] of horrific crimes. The more horrific, the more likely the police 'wouldn't be putting him thru this if he weren't guilty'.
Conversely John Q. Public cannot face the reality of just how deeply evil some people are and so readily dismiss accusations if the media decides to. The more serious the charge the sooner we sneer at them sometimes.
Do any of our resident lawyers have a feel for this?
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| | | 87 | biliruben Sustainer
ID: 5310281417 Tue, Jan 14, 2003, 19:44
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With the exception of the whole Clinton thing (of which you are deluded due to your inability to set aside blinding rage), I agree with you entirely, Baldwin. I beleive it to be a real and significant problem in our judicial/media systems.
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| | | 88 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Jan 14, 2003, 22:57
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Somewhere in post Saddam Iraq some Bathe party member is going, 'C'mon already, move on. You are just deluded because of your blinding rage.'
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| | | 89 | Perm Dude Leader
ID: 3406922 Wed, Jan 15, 2003, 11:00
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Baldwin, don't you see that 1/2 & 3 are opposites? If 1 & 2 are societal tendencies, then 3 should not be happening in the way you state. In fact, the Right's reaction to the Clintons follows the same path as 1 & 2, but not the rest of the country.
I certainly agree with you on 1 & 2. Patricularly with sex crime accusations. All a divorcing wife has to say is that Daddy might have been abusing the daughter and she gets full custody without the need for visitation and he gets hell.
pd
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| | | 90 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Wed, Jan 15, 2003, 13:12
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Baldwin, don't you see that 1/2 & 3 are opposites? - PD
Thus the operative word conversely. *quizzical look at paternalistic editor*
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| | | 91 | Perm Dude Leader
ID: 89321319 Wed, Jan 15, 2003, 13:35
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Didn't pay it the attention I should, sorry. I thought you were drawing a larger, societal point about one and two but throwing out the third one as, well, a throw-in.
I do believe the Right to be following the same tendencies for # 3 as society is for 1 & 2. The Clinton's must be guilty! Look at how much we're talking about them!
pd
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| | | 92 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Thu, Jan 16, 2003, 00:53
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Accused rebel groups include the Congolese Liberation Movement of Jean-Pierra Bemba, one of two key insurgent movements now promised a leading role in Congo's government under a power-sharing agreement to end the central African nation's war.
Rebels called their terror campaign Operation Clean the Slate, said Patricia Tome, spokeswoman for the U.N. Congo mission in the capital, Kinshasa.
"The operation was presented to the people almost like a vaccination campaign, envisioning the looting of each home and the rape of each woman," Tome said. ...
"The testimony given by victims and of witnesses was of cannibalism and forced cannibalism," including people made by rebels to eat members of their own family, Tome said.
Atrocities found by investigators include the removal and consumption of hearts of infants, small girls killed and mutilated, "people executed alive before the members of their families, and the rape of children," Tome said.
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan is on the job, though, and promises to decide very soon whether the UN should actually do anything, as soon as he finishes the latest batch of resolutions condemning Israel. Paging Mr Lecter...your country is ready.
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| | | 94 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Sat, Jan 18, 2003, 19:18
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Why do we let the media ignore Africa? In fact why will you feel so convinced by the media that Africa is a bore to be ignored that you will yawn and not read this post?
You gotta keep an open mind because you never know where the truth might slip out. I dispise many of the people who have helped me with a piece of the puzzle but the truth will out just the same no matter the source.
Here is a source I certainly despise and yet we may gain some interesting insights we couldn't get anywhere else. Cynthia McKinney sponsored a forum where some unusual views about western involvement in Africa's political instabilities came to light. Now of course many participants had an agenda of blaming America first and acting as if no other power players in world affairs had an interest in these matters. The USSR and China and Islamists had huge roles in post-colonial Africa and these actions some how escape proper scrutiny at this forum. Nevertheless there are some nuggets of truth in this amalgam.The West has been able to do this while still shrewdly cultivating the myth that much of Africa's problems today are African made--we have all heard the usual Western defenses that Africa's problems are the fault of corrupt African administrations, centuries-old tribal hatreds, the fault of unsophisticated peoples. But we know that those statements are all a lie. We have always known it. Well no we don't know that. The existance of blackhearted evil corrupt greedheads destroyng their own countries are undeniable. The evils perpetrated by tribalism, the bungling of people untrained to run the abandoned machinery are undeniable, but wait! Are there other obstacles that Africa faces?Sources in the Great Lakes region consistently report the presence of a U.S.-built military base near Cyangugu, Rwanda, near the Congolese border. The base, reported to have been partly constructed by the U.S. firm Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton, is said to be involved with training RPF forces and providing logistics support to their troops in the DRC.
The increasing reliance by the Department of Defense on so-called Private Military Contractors (PMCs) is of special concern. Many of these PMCs -- once labeled as "mercenaries" by previous administrations when they were used as foreign policy instruments by the colonial powers of France, Belgium, Portugal, and South Africa -- have close links with some of the largest mining and oil companies involved in Africa today. PMCs, because of their proprietary status, have a great deal of leeway to engage in covert activities far from the reach of congressional investigators. They can simply claim that their business in various nations is a protected trade secret and the law now seems to be on their side.
...these leaders, who include the current presidents of Uganda, Rwanda, Ethiopia, Angola, Eritrea, Burundi, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo preside over countries where ethnic and civil turmoil permit unscrupulous international mining companies to take advantage of the strife to fill their own coffers with conflict diamonds, gold, copper, platinum, and other precious minerals including one that is a primary component of computer microchips.
Some of the companies involved in this new "scramble for Africa" have close links with PMCs and America's top political leadership. For example, America Minerals Fields, Inc., a company that was heavily involved in promoting the 1996 accession to power of the late Congolese President Laurent-Desire Kabila, was, at the time of its involvement in the Congo's civil war, headquartered in Hope, Arkansas. Its major stockholders included long-time associates of former President Clinton going back to his days as Governor of Arkansas. America Mineral Fields also reportedly enjoys a close relationship with Lazare Kaplan International, Inc., a major international diamond brokerage whose president remains a close confidant of past and current administrations on Africa matters.
One of the major goals of the Rwandan-backed Rassemblement Congolais pour la Democratie (RCD), a group fighting the Kabila government in Congo, is restoration of mining concessions for Barrick Gold, Inc. of Canada. In fact, the rebel RCD government's "mining minister" signed a separate mining deal with Barrick in early 1999. Among the members of Barrick's International Advisory Board are former President Bush and former President Clinton's close confidant Vernon Jordan.
Currently, Barrick and tens of other mining companies are stoking the flames of the civil war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Each benefits by the de facto partition of the country into some four separate zones of political control. First the mineral exploiters from Rwanda and Uganda concentrated on pillaging gold and diamonds from the eastern Congo. Now, they have increasingly turned their attention to a valuable black sand called columbite-tantalite or "col-tan." Col-tan is a key material in computer chips and, therefore, is as considered a strategic mineral. It is my hope that the Bush administration will take pro-active measures to stem this conflict by applying increased pressure on Uganda and Rwanda to withdraw their troops from the country. However, the fact that President Bush has selected Walter Kansteiner to be Assistant Secretary of State for Africa, portends, in my opinion, more trouble for the Great Lakes region. A brief look at Mr. Kansteiner's curriculum vitae and statements calls into question his commitment to seeking a durable peace in the region. For example, he has envisaged the splitting up of the Great Lakes region into separate Tutsi and Hutu states through "relocation" efforts and has called the break-up of the DRC inevitable. I believe Kansteiner's previous work at the Department of Defense where he served on a Task Force on Strategic Minerals and one must certainly consider col-tan as falling into that category -- may influence his past and current thinking on the territorial integrity of the DRC. After all, 80 per cent of the world's known reserves of col-tan are found in the eastern DRC. It is potentially as important to the U.S. military as the Persian Gulf region. ______________________________________________________________
This forum also enumerated a lot of evidence regarding the assassination of Rwanda's Hutu President Juvenal Habyarimana...
The present turmoil in central Africa largely stems from a fateful incident that occurred on April 6, 1994. That was the missile attack on the Rwandan presidential aircraft that resulted in the death of Rwanda's Hutu President Juvenal Habyarimana, his colleague President Cyprien Ntaryamira of Burundi, Habyarimana's chief advisers, and the French crew.
This aerial assassination resulted in a genocide coordinated by the successor militant Hutu Rwandan government that cost the lives of some 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus. This was followed by a counter-genocide orchestrated by the Tutsi-led Rwanda Patriotic Front (RPF) government that resulted in the deaths of 500,000 mostly Hutu refugees in Rwanda and neighboring Zaire/Congo.
there is concrete evidence to show that the plane was shot down by operatives of the RPF. At the time, the RPF was supported by the United States and its major ally in the region, Uganda. Prior to the attack, the RPF leader, the current Rwandan strongman General Paul Kagame, received military training at the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Many of Kagame's subordinates received similar training, including instruction in the use of surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) at the Barry Goldwater Air Force Range at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona. It was Soviet-designed SAMs that were used to shoot down the Rwandan president's airplane. By its own admission, the U.S. Defense Department provided official military training to the RPF beginning in January 1994, three months before the missile attack on the aircraft.
Former moderate Hutu Defense Minister James Gasana, who served under Habyarimana from April 1992 to July 1993, stated before the French inquiry that his government declined to purchase SAMs because they realized the RPF had no planes and, therefore, procurement of such weapons would have been a waste of money.
[French intelligence]...insisted that the two SAM-16s used in the attack on the aircraft were procured from Ugandan military stocks and were "probably delivered by the Americans . . . from the Gulf War."
After the former RPF intelligence team revealed details of the attack, they were supported by yet another former RPF intelligence officer named Jean Pierre Mugabe. In a separate declaration, Mugabe contended that the assassination was directed by Kagame and RPF deputy commander-in-chief James Kabarebe. The RPF, according to Mugabe, campaigned extensively for the regional peace meeting in Dar es Salaam from which Habyarimana was returning when he was assassinated. Mugabe claimed the idea was to collect the top Hutu leadership on the plane in order to easily eliminate them in the attack.
Also, particularly troublesome is a conclusion the CIA is said to have reached in an assessment written in January 1994, a few months before the genocide. According to key officials I have interviewed during my research, that analysis came to the conclusion that in the event that President Habyarimana was assassinated, the minimum number of deaths resulting from the mayhem in Rwanda would be 500 (confined mostly to Kigali and environs) and the maximum 500,000. Regrettably, the CIA's higher figure was closer to reality. [an interesting study for the CIA to be conducting - B]
Certain interests in the United States had reason to see Habyarimana and other pro-French leaders in central Africa out of the way. As recently written by Gilbert Ngijol, a former Assistant to the Special Representative of the Secretary General of the UN to Rwanda in 1994, the United States directly benefited economically from the loss of influence of French and Belgian mining interests in the central Africa and Great Lakes regions.
There is also reason to believe that a number of people with knowledge of Kagame's plot against the presidential aircraft have been assassinated. These possibly include Tanzania's former intelligence chief...
______________________________________________________________ [The Congo] ...is a western syndicated proxy war, and like Sierra Leone, Angola and Sudan, it is war-as-cover for the rapid and unrestricted extraction of raw materials, [how does this fit into Suddan slaughter and slavery in the south? - B] and war as a means to totally disenfranchise the local people. Diamonds, gold, columbium tantalite, niobium, cobalt, manganese and petroleum, natural gas and timber and possibly uranium -- are a few of the major spoils being pillaged behind the scenes as war ravages DRC and some of these minerals are almost solely found in DRC, especially cobalt, niobium, columbium tantalite.
Barrick Gold provides a convenient example using war-as-cover. According to testimony I took in western Uganda in November, Barrick Gold is operating in the Kilo Moto mines near Bunia. These mines are reportedly protected by UPDF. An Israeli General was awarded another Kilo Moto concession and UPDF and RCD operate others. And there is massive ivory poaching again protection rackets going on. Barrick Advisory Board member George Bush and his CIA connections certainly play into these mining deals and lay the groundwork a.k.a. slaughter if necessary to get the product. That includes long-time links to people like CIA station operative in Zaire Lawrence Devlin for example, and his associations with the Templesmans.
George Bush apparently telephoned Mobutu just prior to the first US supported invasion of Congo August 1996 on behalf of Swedish Financier Adolph Lundin to negotiate a deal over the Kilo Moto fields. And the US Presidential Election outcome of 1996 was completely irrelevant to the invasion of Zaire and the replacement of Mobutu. Remember that Kagame was in Washington about August 1996 checking his battle plans with the Pentagon. Mobutu's days were numbered. _______________________________________________________________
When Lumumba, Congo's first elected leader, spoke of using the Congo's resources to benefit the Congo. De Beers feared it would lose access to the one-third of world's diamond supply in the Congo - as would also Tempelsman. Shortly after this, the CIA facilitated Lumumba's assassination. _________________________________________________________________
In the late 1950s democracy arrived in Africa with the election of President Nkrumah - who thought Black Africans should not have to sell diamonds to an apartheid company - so took Ghana's diamonds from the cartel. A short while later, the State Department wrote a furious letter to Maurice Tempelsman saying that his office, by using an unguarded phone line, had betrayed the identity of the plotters against Nkrumah and the identity of the CIA Head of Station. The plotters seemingly were communicating to the White House via Tempelsman's office. (Memorandum for the President from WW Rostow, 24 September 1961) Tempelsman clearly had advanced knowledge of this coup attempt. Shortly afterwards President Kennedy decided not to "downgrade" (his word) Tempelsman for this error.
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| | | 96 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Mon, Feb 03, 2003, 15:29
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Excellent post 94, Baldwin
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| | | 97 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 14826271 Mon, Feb 03, 2003, 19:31
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Why do we let the media ignore Africa?
Easy answer, course. Rascism. In this form - our media is concerned with dark skinned people who are victims of imperialist whites (See, e.g., the Israeli/Palestinian conflict) but doesn't give a crap when blacks kill blacks - just accepting that that's what black people do - that they're not capable of democratic rule or achieving human rights. Ugly racism allows almost all of the people of Africa and the Middle East to live under oppressive, autocratic regimes with barely a murmur of protest from the Western elite. How many time in the post-modern thread, for instance, is it argued that "they" just have a "different" way of doing things. We wouldn't accept that way of doing things if it involved white people. (See, e.g., Yugoslavia)
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| | | 98 | Perm Dude Leader
ID: 5012623 Mon, Feb 03, 2003, 19:43
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Great post #94, B. You've been at the front, combating anti-Africa bias for some time on this forum, and continue to come through. It's too bad you're finding most of your allies on the Left on this issue, since the issues of slavery, AIDS, agricultural advances, and drought relief are ones that can be dealt with through people across the political spectrum.
We have been sh!tting on Africa for a long time. I'm convinced that the next wave of terrorist groups will come out of sub-Sahara Africa if we don't work now to reverse what we've done.
pd
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| | | 99 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Tue, Feb 04, 2003, 09:04
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Gratified a few actually read and appreciated that info. I'm feel I am usually doing this research for my own benefit which is lonely but sufficient.
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| | | 100 | Guru
ID: 330592710 Fri, Feb 14, 2003, 10:34
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A week or so late, but there's still time to hear most of it!
First notes for 639-year composition
"The first notes in the longest and slowest piece of music in history, designed to go on for 639 years, are being played on a German church organ on Wednesday [Feb. 5, 2003].
The three notes, which will last for a year-and-a-half, are just the start of the piece, called "As Slow As Possible".
Composed by late avant-garde composer John Cage, the performance has already been going for 17 months - although all that has been heard so far is the sound of the organ's bellows being inflated.
The music will be played in Halberstadt, a small town renowned for its ancient organs in central Germany.
It was originally a 20-minute piece for piano, but a group of musicians and philosophers decided to take the title literally and work out how long the longest possible piece of music could last.
They settled on 639 years because the Halberstadt organ was 639 years old in the year 2000.
"We started discussing - what is as slow as possible for the organ?" Swedish composer and organist Hans-Ola Ericsson told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"We, a group of theologians, musicologists, philosophers, composers and organists, met during a couple of years solely to discuss this question. It was rather wonderful to have one topic to discuss at length."
"We came up with the answer that the piece could last for the duration of the organ - that is the lifetime of an organ."
Cage composed the original piece before his death in 1992, and Mr. Ericsson said Cage would have liked what they had done with it.
"It's a sound that we give to the future to take care of, and hopefully the aesthetics and the ideas of John Cage will manage to survive."
The first note is due to be struck at 1800 local time (1700 GMT) on Wednesday (Feb. 5).
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| | | 102 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Fri, Feb 14, 2003, 12:14
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N. Korean workers building WMD tunnels for Egypt and Libya.For years, Egypt has been engaged in missile and weapons of mass destruction programs with countries such as Iraq and North Korea, reports Geostrategy-Direct, the online intelligence newsletter. The problem was that the CIA had difficulty uncovering these programs.
Now, after years of searching, the CIA has come up with the reason.
Egypt has devised a concealment and deception program that exceeds that of North Korea's, intelligence operatives say. Many of the Egyptian missile and WMD programs are based in the Sahara and huge Western deserts between Egypt and Libya.
The two countries have built a series of tunnels along the Egyptian-Libyan border. The tunnels conceal development and production of North Korean missiles and nuclear weapons components from the prying eyes of Israeli and U.S. spy satellites.
North Korea reportedly built the tunnel network. Pyongyang used its expertise in digging its way to South Korea for the Egyptian and Libyan concealment program.
North Korea currently is working on a mega-tunnel project through Libya. Thousands of North Korean workers are building a reinforced concrete tunnel that is 1,300 feet underground and can't be destroyed even by U.S. nuclear weapons. Or, at least that is the hope by Egypt and the Libyans.
The presence of so many North Koreans as well as Filipinos in Libya has not been easy to hide. That's where the deception comes in. Libyan ruler Moammar Gadhafi has told Western guests that the laborers are going to build a 2,000-mile tunnel from Egypt to Tunisia in what the colonel calls the "Great Man-Made River Project."
Quietly, U.S. officials have probed Egypt for information on the project. Egyptian officials, who have stymied every U.S. investigation on Iraqi- or North Korean-linked WMD programs, have shrugged their shoulders.
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| | | 103 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Fri, Feb 14, 2003, 14:59
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Post 100
Great to hear that Cage's work is getting its proper attention. I might try and stop by this church in Germany to catch a piece of the work, or maybe I'll jut wait until it is over and buy the CD. I wonder how long it would be to download an mp3 of a 639 year-long song?
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| | | 104 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 14826271 Sun, Feb 16, 2003, 14:10
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David Pryce -Jones on the implicit racism of the anti-War left. (See post #97)
Their protests suggest that it is not worth risking anything at all to free Arabs. To risk spilling a single drop of blood to liberate Iraq would be futile - not merely because it would be "destabilising" or "kill children", but because the Arabs have no capacity for "Western" freedom anyway. Behind the demonstrators' slogans lies the assumption that Arabs should be left alone: they don't mind being brutalised, tortured and murdered by a fascist thug like Saddam. Where they come from, it is the natural order of things.
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| | | 105 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 04:33
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Priest from hell - "Ntakirutimana [a Seventh Day Adventist pastor]told the victims [whom he had lured to his church for protection]: "You must be eliminated. God no longer wants you."A Rwandan pastor was convicted of aiding and abetting genocide yesterday over the killing of 6,000 parishioners during the country's massacres in 1994.
Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, 78, a Seventh Day Adventist pastor, was sentenced to 10 years in jail by the United Nations tribunal in Arusha, Tanzania. Human-rights activists protested at the leniency, saying that, with time already served, he could be free in four years.
Ntakirutimana's son Gerard, a doctor, was convicted of genocide and crimnes against humanity and sentenced to 25 years.
Up to a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed in a 100-day orgy of bloodshed in 1994. The tribunal heard that Ntakirutimana lured 6,000 of those fleeing death squads into his church complex in Kibuye, western Rwanda. He and his son then brought in the killers.
Some of the refugees had heard of the plot to kill them, and wrote to the pastor: "We wish to inform you that tomorrow we will be killed with our families."
The phrase became the title of a book by an American journalist, Philip Gourevitch, who first highlighted the case. He said Ntakirutimana told the victims: "You must be eliminated. God no longer wants you." Would it be asking too much if I asked the world to drop the title 'Pastor' from his name?
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| | | 106 | sarge33rd
ID: 381154278 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 08:01
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could we replace it with the "P-o-S" instead?
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| | | 107 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 108231015 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 09:21
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Would it be asking too much if I asked the world to drop the title 'Pastor' from his name
I see that you saw fit to call him a priest even though he wasn't one. "First remove the beam from thine own eye..."
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| | | 108 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 11:00
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Despite the fact that that country is the most Catholic country in Africa and the those priests covered themselves in shame in general there I was using the term in the generic sense. I did not know Catholics thot they had a copyright on that term.
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| | | 109 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 108231015 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 14:04
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What "generic" sense of the word Priest would apply here. Show me where protestants in general and 7th Day Aventists in particular ever refer to their Pastors as Priests (capital P - you obviously weren't using the term in the sense that we're all priests of Christ) and it'll prove me wrong.
You won't find it though - 7th Day Adventists abhor the term (as do most Protestants.) You could have just said "Woops, you're right he wasn't Catholic as the article that I copied right under my link clearly shows - my mistake this time - but I still hate Catholics" and gone on. Instead you make up some delusion about the "generic" sense of the word Priest, reinforcing the fact that you were being dishonest (with yourself, not others - you linked and cited the article, after all) on this.
I don't doubt you, that some (many) Catholic Priests have acted dishonorably in Rwanda; it takes a lot of evil people acting in concert to allow the atrocities that have occured there. But that doesn't change the fact that no Priest ws involved - and that you, intentionally or not, implied otherwise by using that word.
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| | | 110 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 14:27
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I simply did not mean to imply it was a Catholic priest. I personally use the terms priest and pastor interchangably and almost universally not as a term of respect or endearment. I did ask if we could please not hear this man refered to as Pastor so-and-so and I might add I would just as soon not hear the media still calling convicted pedophiles Father so-and-so. If anyone actually took from my post that this particular pastor was a Catholic priest then yes 'oops' indeed.
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| | | 111 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 14:42
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gotta go with Baldwin on this one MBJ. I and many others I know, use the two titles interchangeably. (sp?)
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| | | 112 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 108231015 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 14:48
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Show me.
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| | | 113 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 14:56
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what? did you move to Missouri or something??? Hell MBJ, show ME wher the Catholic Church has sole rights to the term.
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| | | 115 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 108231015 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 15:33
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sarge, You, unsolicited, made a statement addressed to me. You chimed in saying that you, like Baldwin, use the terms "Priest" and "Pastor" interchangeably.
I say you're both full of crap. Nobody talks about a Baptist priest or a Methodist priest or a 7th Day Adventist priest; they don't have them.
There are voodoo priests. The are/were Jewish priests. When talking about Christianity, priests are Catholic, either Roman or Greek or Eastern or Russian.
Nobody has "sole rights" to words, but we do have a common language; words have specific meanings, some more specific than others. For example one might use the term "pastor" and be understood to be referring either a Catholic pastor or a Protestant one. On the other hand, "Priest" has a more specific conotation. Show me where Priest, refers to a protestant, in this case 7th Day Adventist, pastor and I stand corrected. Show me where you have referred to a Protestant priest. Otherwise, like I said, your full it.
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| | | 116 | sarge33rd
ID: 324532412 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 15:36
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hmmmmmmmmmm *wracking brains memory cells*
ah yes, here it is, a rather non-descript photo w/o sound, wherein I was involved in a conversation in 1977, August I think it was, and I called my Lutheran Minister a 'Priest'...
There. Does that satisfy your need for proof that I at least once used the title priest to refer to a non-catholic?
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| | | 117 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 108231015 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 15:37
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My sister knows someone who considers herself a druidic priestess.
Or, as Baldwin and sarge might just as easily say, a Druidic pastor?
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| | | 118 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 16:37
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Catholic Priests are Catholic. Episcopalian Priests are Episcopal.
They are called Father [and/or Reverend at least in Episcopal Church].
Episcopalian, adj. 1. pertaining or adhering to the Protestant Episcopal Church of the Anglican communion. [George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, FDR, Gerald Ford and George HW Bush were Episcopalians]. George W Bush switched to Methodist.
priest, n. 1. one whose office is to perform religous rites and to make sacrificial offerings. [We have 'Holy Communion' in the Episcapol Church and that is performed by a priest.] 2. [in Christian use] a. a person ordained to the sacerdotal or pastoral office; clergyman; minister. b. [in hierarchical churches] a clergyman of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out Christian ministry. c. a minister of any religion.
Maybe why you have Catholic priests and Episcapol priests who are called Father or Rev.
pastor, n. 1. a minister or priest in charge of a church.
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| | | 119 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 554192913 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 16:41
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I'm tight with Priest Holmes. He asks me to call him "Rabbi". I usually just call him Holmes, as in "Zup, Holmes?"
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| | | 120 | Bungers Leader
ID: 389553115 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 17:10
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Zenny Youngman stikes again.
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| | | 121 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Thu, Feb 20, 2003, 21:30
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Really let's take a look at the post that started this nonsense from MBJ...Priest from hell - "Ntakirutimana [a Seventh Day Adventist pastor]... Now I ask you, can anyone say I was trying to fool anyone into believing this particular man was Catholic? I didn't need to include that parenthetic comment after all, sheesh. 'Priest from hell' just sounds more funny than 'pastor from hell'. That's all there was to it. One less syllable is all.
Thank you Steve for settling the strict sense of the word issue.
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| | | 122 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Sat, Feb 22, 2003, 19:15
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Islamist Monty Python fan...
recites the holy handgrenade skit
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| | | 123 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Sat, Feb 22, 2003, 19:29
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Since we are frequently reminded jihad is an internal struggle one is left to wonder where he intends to put this grenade.
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| | | 124 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Sat, Feb 22, 2003, 19:39
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"I move for no man." - Black knight
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| | | 125 | Pancho Villa Donor
ID: 46113919 Sat, Feb 22, 2003, 20:10
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LOL, Baldwin. Good to see your sense of humor hasn't deserted you.
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| | | 126 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Sat, Feb 22, 2003, 20:12
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The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. 'Tis one of the sacred relics Brother Maynard always carries with him.
Consult the Book of Armaments.
BROTHER MAYNARD - Armaments Chapter Two Verses Nine to Twenty One.
ANOTHER MONK - And St. Attila raised his hand grenade up on high saying "O Lord bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. "and the Lord did grin and people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orang-utans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and...
BROTHER MAYNARD - Skip a bit brother ...
ANOTHER MONK -... Er ... oh, yes ... and the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thou foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
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| | | 127 | Baldwin
ID: 4261155 Sun, Feb 23, 2003, 12:23
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Drawn freely from Little Green Footballs. That site has been great lately.
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| | | 130 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Sun, Feb 23, 2003, 18:37
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A link for Baldwin
btw, am I the only one whose thread view is freaking out right after #128?
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| | | 133 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Sat, Nov 15, 2008, 18:01
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Great website: wikileaks.
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| | | 134 | Boldwin
ID: 2155174 Wed, Feb 17, 2010, 06:17
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Liberal Islamofascism enabling has made more progress...
...in the Netherlands.
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| | | 138 | weykool
ID: 343561414 Tue, Sep 20, 2011, 19:42
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Heh, I worked in an office with a guy who celebrated Talk like a Pirate day. AAARRRG.
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| | | 139 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Wed, Sep 21, 2011, 19:37
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I don't really like pirates but the facebook pirate option was kinda fun.
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| | | 140 | sarge33rd
ID: 48402311 Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 15:46
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Faster than light?
OK, we all know that according to Einstein's Theory of Relativity, FTL (faster than light) is not possible.
Why not? Theory is that if we travelled faster than light, we would move backwards thru time. Why? Since what we see, is a reflection of light off a surface, the face of the clock would APPEAR to be running or have run backwards. OK, THAT clock. What of the one on the wall of our vehicle, or the watch we are wearing? What if, we moved in one direction at 1/2 speed of light PLUS 1 mph, and a clock went in precisely the opposite direction 180 degrees, also at 1/2 spd of light PLUS 1 mph? We'd be moving away from that clock at faster than light speed (by 2 mph), and it would APPEAR to be running backwards. But would it in FACT be running in reverse?
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| | | 141 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Sep 24, 2011, 11:29
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1. Stunning find. I am not on my main computer anymore and thus haven't been checking my science bookmarks often enuff or I sure would have posted this.
2. I believe in your thot experiment, that the light from the clock receding from you would never reach you and thus would not appear anything at all, to all appearances having disappeared from the universe from your frame of reference.
3. The universe is in fact performing this experiment as we speak since the furthest bounds of the universe are in fact receding from us faster than the speed of light relative to our speeding frame of reference. This is why space appears dark.
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| | | 142 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Sep 24, 2011, 18:40
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Land of the Free?“no, Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to own and use a dairy cow or a dairy herd;”
“no, Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to consume the milk from their own cow;”
“no, Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to produce and consume the foods of their choice…” Wisconsin Judge's ruling and new legal precedent.
If you can't grow and eat food what freedom to pursue happiness is there?
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| | | 143 | sarge33rd
ID: 118582410 Sat, Sep 24, 2011, 19:32
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well, the judge is right with the 1st statement, We DONT have the right to own a dairy herd. Else, those of us that dont own one, could suit someone for violating our right TO own one.
From there though, I sort of think he jumps the ship and gets all wet.
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| | | 144 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Sep 24, 2011, 20:53
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The raw milk issue is one that smacks right up against some very intrusive government regulations, IMO. Most places that I've seen just kinda turn a blind eye to the practice of selling it.
But government really should not have the right it does to regulate it to that granular level.
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| | | 145 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 08:24
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Not meaning to cut off the current discussion but I just noticed that the le Carre novel 'The Mission Song' which I purchased and devoured on one day recently, is the perfect fleshing out of post#94.
Reading le Carre's entire body of work should be required reading for this board's regulars. No one gets the absurd contradictory darkly humorous craziness of each country and geopolitical situation quite as well as he does.
He is one of my three favorite writers, who also include the writer of the Fletch series, Gregory Mcdonald, and Douglas Adams of Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy. These authors have a gift of being able to write an entire book without ever writing a sentence which is predictable from the preceding sentence. The result is this breathtaking, head whipsawing, breakneck rollercoaster ride of delightful surprise and rare insight. You read their books in a state of mid-laughter. You will not be sorry you picked up 'The Mission Song'.
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| | | 146 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 08:25
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Liberals can even read him as he went over to the dark side a long time ago.
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| | | 147 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 08:56
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Le Carre is a great writer, though dated--all those Cold War espionage novels are, at this point, though many are very good.
His novels are pretty complex, which is why I like them better than, say, Fleming or Ludlum. But I read them all.
The Constant Gardener was an amazing book, and had an injustice done to it by the movie.
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| | | 148 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 09:20
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He's got twenty years of post-cold war novels based on settings all over the world and Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy is still possibly the greatest TV production of all time. It holds up just fine.
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| | | 149 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 09:23
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! Look what I just discovered!
In 2011, The movie released on the 5th September 2011 in Venice film Festival and was released for the public in the UK on 16 September 2011 as Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy (film)
Guess I'm not the only one who thinks it holds up just fine.
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| | | 150 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 09:35
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I'm not talking about the movies--I'm talking about the novels.
He is a great writer, but the themes in those Cold War novels are no longer timely. For someone still in the 60's, however, they must seem quite fresh--prescient, even...
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| | | 151 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 09:39
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LOL...like you're not stuck in the sixties.
Tailor of Panama was indispensible and timely reading, no?
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| | | 152 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 12:59
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Absolutely--somewhat satirical, if I recall correctly. Like I said, his novels are incredibly rich and complex. I hated the movie version of The Constant Gardener because the nuances of that novel were either lost of glossed over. They did as good a job as they could with it, but it just wasn't a work that translated well into the screen.
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| | | 153 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Sun, Sep 25, 2011, 16:37
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All this time I thought Tailor of Panama was by Graham Greene. I guess they both wrote similar books.
Speaking of Greene, I thought The Quiet American was as good as writing gets.
I'm sure you guys saw the Alec Guiness' BBC version of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. That was as good as television gets. I enjoyed it more than the book, which is not something one can often say.
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| | | 154 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Sun, Dec 21, 2014, 18:24
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The CDC is monitoring 1,400 suspected cases of ebola in the USA today. But that's politically inconvenient for the palace guard so you won't be hearing about it.
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| | | 155 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Sun, Dec 21, 2014, 19:47
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Ha! More imaginatively-based fear.
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| | | 156 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 12:48
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*roll* The 'reality based' PD thinks the CDC's work is imaginary.
How anti-science of you.
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| | | 157 | biliruben
ID: 561162511 Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 15:07
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I'm not going to click through to the faux news clip, because I don't want to become dumber, but that's about as truthy a headline as can exist. Pure fear-based nonsense. You owe PD and apology.
If you actually want your knowledge to grow rather than twist and rot your brain, here's the relevant MMWR.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6349a5.htm?s_cid=mm6349a5_w
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| | | 158 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 17:42
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There's another vote for the O Admin preventing a reporter from getting the truth out.
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| | | 159 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 17:47
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We are not quarantining. We are releasing all possible carriers into the wild and hoping they self-report adequately.
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| | | 160 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 17:50
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Obama didn't have her computer hacked because he was afraid of faux news. He did it because he was afraid of her getting the truth out.
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| | | 161 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 23:14
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Delusional. Baldwin hasn't a clue what "truth" is anymore, except that it has something to do with weaponizing words to use against Obama.
Sad, really. His God must be so proud of him.
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| | | 162 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 16:49
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There wasn't anything contradictory between Sheryl Attkisson's account and the CDC report bili pulled up.
There is something sadly anti-science about the libs who can't read it and see it.
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| | | 163 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 17:09
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So the CDC is secretly tracking 1400 people. And she was able to get this top secret out of them (which isn't found anywhere else)...by calling them up on the phone.
Let's let that stew for awhile...
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| | | 164 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 17:21
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It's amazing what a Dem admin can get the MSM to spike.
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| | | 165 | biliruben
ID: 105572020 Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 19:07
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The truthy part is your term "suspected cases of Ebola". Thafz total bulldanky, and makes it sound as if they are likely carriers.
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| | | 166 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 22:06
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"Sure, go ahead and circulate among the crowd...but if it wouldn't be too much trouble, check yourself for ebola now and then and call me maybe."
If that's how you think preventing one of the deadliest most contagious plagues works, please get back on your unicorn, stow the magical thinking, and let someone who actually cares about survival run things.
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| | | 167 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 23:29
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most contagious? WTF are you talking about?
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| | | 168 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420 Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 23:44
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Nothing to worry about obviously, if you ask team O.
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| | | 170 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Tue, Jan 27, 2015, 23:42
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You get a little closer to it, and you'll hear this from the planet's sound system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTGrfs5TXM
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| | | 171 | Boldwin
ID: 49572022 Sat, Jul 18, 2015, 17:43
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