Forum: pol
Page 883
Subject: Israeli bulldozer driver murders US peace activist


  Posted by: Seattle Zen - Donor [30216620] Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 14:43

Disturbing photos of WA woman murdered by Isreali soldier on bulldozer



This sad event has garnered a lot of press out here in the Socialist Republic of Washington, I don't know what the rest of Corporate Media America has been told.

This was no accident, the driver killed her on purpose. The only "accident", in the eyes of Isreal, was that she was an American and Isreal will never do anything to upset Americans, hense the apologies.
 
1Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 14:57
this was in USA Today this morning, so there's no cover-up.

i will say, however, that the source linked is CLEARLY something that is one-sided - i mean, the name of it is Electronic Intifada. the only names more biased would be something like getridofisrael.com.

the photos supplied were credited to the ISM - the Palestinian-run "International Solidarity Movement".

there is no doubt her death is a tragedy - any death is a tragedy, especially a preventable one.

however, i will say that she purposely got in the way of a military action - i will not debate the rightness or wrongness of said military action, because that's not the argument at this moment - and when you do that, you're going to get hurt.

i may be pro-peace, but if a soldier comes up to you and tells you to move because they're about to demolish the building you're "protecting", because it houses people responsibile for killing hundreds of israeli women and children, then you move.

and if you don't move, you are intentionally putting your life at risk. as i said, i feel badly she died, but she could have moved out of the way - when a moving vehicle comes toward me, and living in NYC it happens every day - i scamper out of the way as quickly as possible, even if i feel it's my right to be in that cross walk.

peace,
Tree

 
2Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 15:04
Pretty sad, Tree, when you define the demolition of a home as a "military action".

the photos supplied were credited to the ISM - the Palestinian-run "International Solidarity Movement".

Are they therefore invalid? Are you accusing them of being doctored?
 
3Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 15:23
Terrible incident and "murder" is the appropriate term. There is no excuse for her death.

Still, I don't quite understand why people are shocked to get what they ask for. If I went to the West Side of Louisville and started shouting racial epithets - I would be shot. It wouldn't be right that I was shot - but it what I was asking for. This poor girl believed that she had a right/duty to obstruct a military operation that she found wrong - it's not right what happened to her but was the necssary consequence of her actions.
 
4WiddleAvi
      Donor
      ID: 361032112
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 15:27
SZ - Why is it not Military Action ?? The Israeli's say that they are demolishing homes that are used by militants and to smuggle weapons. Towards the bottom is the mentions on weapon smuggling

America has never had to fight this type of war. Israel has to do what is needed to defend itself.

On a seperate note it seems like if an Israeli kills an American it is more news worthy then when an palestinian suicide bomber kills an american (Which there are been quite a few). It's a shame that the Palestinians are better at manipulating the media then the Israeli's (The slaughter at Jenin comes to mind).

Are you going to complain when some of those human shields that went to Iraq die ??

If you stand in middle of the highway don't complain when you get run over.
 
5HARKen Energetic
      ID: 391135227
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 15:32
dang it I have to agree with MBJ again.

The sad part on this is, Everyone cares about the girl cause she is American or better non- Palestinian. She had a choice. No one cares about the uncounted for that are killed in maybe the same way, but had to live there and were just hoping to save their home.
 
6Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 15:42
Bravo, Hark.
 
7sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 15:45
The girls death is sad, even tragic, but it is also her own fault. The Isrealis and Palestinians have been at each others throats for decades. Much like the Catholics and Protestants of Northern Ireland. Yet I cannot recall a single American going to Ireland and standing iun front of the British Military APC's. Had they, I'm certain they too would have been run over. A shame? Yes. A tragedy? Again yes. Something I will 'blame' the Isrealis for? Not a prayer.
 
8walk
      Leader
      ID: 214581016
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 15:53
Pretty similar sentiment here, sarge33rd. I guess if I went to Israel and got blown up by a palestinian bomber, I'd have to be accountable for taking the risk. "Comes with the territory." Ugh, sad but true for all involved. Part of me wishes, and I am jewish, that all of Israel would just say: "you know vhat, it's not vorth it anymore..." and pack up and move to the States (Brooklyn or Monsey, where I grew up) or wherever. Just to stop the neverending conflict. No one will ever give in. Never.

- walk
 
9Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 15:57
Grew up in Monsey, Walk? I used to spend summers in Suffern, playing with cousins in the vast wooded areas that used to be behind the NYS Thruway. All developed now.
 
10walk
      Leader
      ID: 214581016
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:04
Yeah, my mother-in-law told me she spent her summers where I grew up, too. Funny.

Suffern, about 8 minutes from where I grew up. Used to work at a department store on Route 59 by the Thruway (exit 14b) to which you refer. I went to the Suffern high school prom (rival school of my ramapo) circa 1980. How old are you, MITH?

- walk
 
11Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:09
LOL, I'm 30. I went to a Suffern High Prom, too. 1990, which was the year before I graduated. I actually dissed my chem Regents/final to go - the only HS class I ever failed.
 
12Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:10
Caldor?
 
13Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:12
Some fact/photo checking on the incident.

Doesn't change my opinion but does demonstrate the already-in-high-gear spin being put on the story (Reminicent of Jenin)
 
14walk
      Leader
      ID: 214581016
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:12
Cha-ching! Caldor it was. I am ten years your senior and worked at Caldor circa 1979-1980. Know that entire area like the back of my hand. Funny about your HS chem regents.

- walk
 
15Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:19
You don't know any Kinlans, do you? From what I hear my cousin Pat was a bad-@$$ in his day. He and his buddies supposedly tried to ride their motorcycles through Suffern High on their last day of school, but someone tipped off the principal. Probably 1981.
 
16Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:29
Bulldozing homes will never be a military action. It is a tool of genocide or "ethnic cleansing" (an overused term, I admit, but unfortunately it is most appropriate here). If a man is guilty of plotting against the government or of conspiring to bomb civilians in Israel, arrest him, try him, and if guilty, punish him. Do not raze his home and leave his family on the street.

I agree with MBJ's post 3. I am not shocked that the Israeli soldier ran her over and this absence of shock is depressing in and of itself. Completely agree with Hark in post 5 as well. Corporate media believes that Americans only want to hear about Americans who die around the world and tune out daily stories of Palestinians who meet a similar fate as Rachael Corrie. I do my part to ignore corporate media.

it seems like if an Israeli kills an American it is more news worthy then when an Palestinian suicide bomber kills an American

WiddleAvi. I actually think the fact that Americans are more upset when an Israeli soldier kills an American than when an American succumbs to a PLO bomb speaks to our hope that Israel is morally righteous. Palestinians have chosen the path of violence and that is sad. Israel has responded, but in a way that is unjust itself. What I see of Israel’s policies is the desire to corral the Palestinians into disgusting "townships" reminiscent of apartide South Africa, denying the very humanity of these Arabs. The action of the Israeli bulldozer driver is simply a microcosm of this policy.

By the way, here in Seattle there are occasions where protestors shut down the main freeway in town by sitting down on the pavement. Would you run them over?
 
17walk
      Leader
      ID: 4112711
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:30
'Fraid not sir. My clan were largely smallish, jewish, studious, heavy metal-loving, "nerd-heads."

- walk
 
18sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:31
I know they wouldnt live long doing that on I35 in Des Moines.
 
19Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:31
lol
 
20Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:35
With blogs like the one posted by MBJ 13 I feel there is no hope.

Also, don't any of those idiots know first aid?

Does this idiot have no morals? I didn't realize that gauze and CPR could cure two broken legs, internal bleeding and a fractured skull.
 
21sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 16:42
injuries arent 'cured', diseases are. Injuries are 'healed'. (I know, just being a wise-a$$)
 
22steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 17:02
SZ - I have to admit that the first aid part of the blog was cold.

But do you agree it can be suicidal to jump on the blade of a moving bulldozer? And I also feel there is no hope when you have rags like 'EI' declaring it murder while using photo's that may not accurately represent what happened or what was witnessed by others.

==========

Should we require that in the future all protesters have some understanding of basic physics? This could stop dangerous acts before they happen.
 
23walk
      Leader
      ID: 4112711
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 17:13
Just looked at all of the links and the photos and the spin. I lamely have not done this for the countless others who have died or been hurt unnecessarily. I am very upset. No judgments, just upset.

Okay, some judgment: I am sure there were errors in judgment on both sides ("Rachel, get out of the way!"), but I guess the holder of the 'dozer (i.e weapon) needs to be extra careful not to hurt an unarmed person more than the person (no matter how foolish) who takes a risk with their well-being. Analogous to my war sentiment, there were other alternatives the authorities could have taken (e.g. arrest?) besides "driving on," and hoping she would get out of the way. The fact that things like this happen, when she was trying to do something with good intentions. Oh man.

- walk
 
24WiddleAvi
      Donor
      ID: 2101079
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 17:36
If the house was being used as a tunnel to smuggle weapons I see no reason why destroying the house would not be considered Military action.

It still seems to me that the media has an anti Israel attitude and that shows in this case when it is an American killed by Israeli's.

 
25steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 17:42
They never learn.

Protesters vow to greet war with widespread disobedience

They vow to block federal buildings, military compounds and streets ....... - Hope they understand physics and moving vehicles.

And is blocking military compunds during a war more than 'disobedience'? Conspiring with the enemy? Treason? Put me on the jury.

Some plans for the first day or two of war are writ large, like paralyzing traffic with bicycles and cars .... - Hope they understand bicycles weigh less and have less force than a car, an SUV or an 18 wheeler.

.... some anti-war groups were pressing supporters Monday to begin civil disobedience immediately.

Eight opponents of a war were arrested Monday in Traverse City, Mich., when they tried to block an Army Reserve convoy headed to a training area. One handcuffed himself to a truck and the other seven locked arms in front of the vehicle, police said.
- Conspiring with the enemy.

In San Francisco .......... Some blocked traffic in the city's financial district. Police in riot gear cleared an intersection, and at least 40 arrests were made. - Police may have saved their lives. Keep them in jail where they can't hurt themselves.
 
26Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 17:49
SZ - what WA said - if the home was used to store, smuggle, or in any way was the owner involved in murdering israeli citizens, then it's no longer just a residential situation. it's a homemade military base - if someone in this country has a house full of weapons and the intentions for them are clearly to do harm, we do the same thing.

the "funny" thing about this is that the Israeli's should have hired the Palestinian PR firm long ago, because they've got much better PR.

it is much like Jenin. remember the "massacre"? front page articles for days. then, when it came out there was no massacre, it got buried.

my brother lived a hill away from Jenin. and he knew immediately the stories were lies.

my parents are in israel now, visiting my brother, before he leaves to join the israeli air force in a few weeks.

i am afraid for them, because of the reality of a suicide bomb. but, i also accept that they are aware of the risks they are taking by travelling. and as travellers, they're a lot more innocent then some woman leaping into the blades of a bull dozer to "stop" a military action.

peace,
Tree

 
27Micheal
      ID: 412281014
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 18:58
There were other ways to remove her and tear down the house besides running her over, but the fact is she laid down in front of a bulldozer (the article says that she fell, but who just accidently falls while standing in place) that was not going to stop for her. She watched it come closer and closer and didn't make any effort to get out of the way. I wonder when, or if, it crossed her mind that the person operating this machine had no intentions of stopping. She apparently watched to many Tiananmen Square re-runs.

 
28Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 19:28
Michael, apparently eyewitnesses from her organization said that she jumped up on the blade of the bulldozer and then fell off, underneath it - it's now being spun that she stood in front of it.
 
29Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 19:45
nice to see the truth beginning to come out quickly on this one, instead of the long-protacted fairy tales of Jenin.

peace,
Tree
 
30katietx
      ID: 202431517
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 19:52
I will post a link (acutally 2 links) at the bottom of this post to possibly support the following:

1) she's not in the sightline of the driver. he couldn't have seen her. according to the idf, "the windows of the bulletproof bulldozer are very small and the visibility is very limited."
2) bulldozers that size are tremendously loud. i hear construction equipment out near my house all the time, and i know those drivers can't hear anything, even amplified by a megaphone.

my opinion is that this was an accident. most likely, the driver, through his limited view, saw her briefly with a megaphone, but didn't hear her. then she disappeared from view, so he assumed that she moved out of the way (not being able to see she had - most likely - fallen down). after all, the other protestors weren't in front of the bulldozer -- they were off to the sides. then he went on with his task, clearing brush and other obstacles from the nearby buildings. reversing out from the area revealed the broken body of the young girl.

oh, and the owner of the house - Samir Masri - whose demolition she was protesting? check out what his nephew did in 2001: (second link)


Ezzeddine Masri was a member of Hamas who made an operation killing himself and 22 israelis at the Sbarro restraunt in West Jerusalem on August 9th 2001.

Link regarding Masri

Protest
 
31Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 27244818
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 19:56
I heard she was actually Chinese, or was Nelson Mandella or something...

;)
 
32Micheal
      ID: 412281014
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 20:40
After reading this article, I don't feel for her at all. You have to be a complete idiot to jump onto the blade of a moving bulldozer on uneven ground and not expect anything bad to happen. She figured she would be a hero, jump on, the guy would stop and she would jump off and start planning her victory parade. Then the ISM twists what happened to make it look like she did absolutely nothing wrong leaving out the part about her jumping on the blade of a moving bulldozer and saying:
"Initially he dropped sand and other heavy debris on her, then the bulldozer pushed her to the ground where it proceeded to drive over her, fracturing both of her arms, legs and skull".

The Israeli government shouldn't apologize nor regret this incident and what is there to assess? She brought it on herself.
"Israeli officials expressed "regret" over the incident to American officials, sources in Jerusalem said, and in Washington, a State Department statement said it had received reports of the incident, and was "assessing the situation."

This wasn't murder, more like suicide.
 
33Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 20:41
katie - obviously, we rarely agree on anything. it's funny how the israeli-palestinian conflict can sometimes bring people on radically different sides of some issues, together with the same thought.

on an aside - maybe my computer is doing something funny, but those links aren't working right to me - they're going to stories that don't seem related to the title you gave them - one of them actually links to the original story this thread referred to.

peace,
Tree
 
34katietx
      ID: 202431517
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 21:30
:sighs heavily:

Tree, if you will scroll down (about 1/3 of the way down the page) to where it says:

"Report on Recently Demolished Homes in the Tubas Region

Report Date: Sunday, 11 August 2002"

You would then find the info on Masri

 
35Pancho Villa
      Donor
      ID: 46113919
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 21:43
Whatever the owner's nephew did is completely irrelevant in a civilized society. That is not to say that Masri is an innocent unfortunate uninvolved in anti-Israeli activities. Zen does make a good point in #16 - if suspected of crimes he should be arrested and tried. Bulldozing his house only feeds anti-Israeli sentiment, and does nothing but escalate the hatred Palesinians feel for Israelis. It's almost as if the Israelis treat the Palestinians like Americans treated the Indians in the late 19th century, taking their land and forcing them to live on reservations. Please don't reply with "So you condone suicide bombing" or "Why do you hate Israel" type snippets. In attempting to find some long-lasting solutions for the area, both sides' atrocities must cease, and both sides grievances must be put on equal standing, regardless of which side has bigger tanks.
 
36Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 22:02
katie - i wasn't criticizing you in ANY way whatsoever. i didn't realize the part referenced was further down in the most. i thought perhaps an innocent mistake was made.

peace,
Tree
 
37Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 22:05
PV - you hit the nail on the head. "...in a civilized society..."

in a civilized society, people don't strap bombs to themselves, walk over to a pizza joint on a sunny afternoon, and blow themselves up while purposely trying to take as many mothers and babies with them.

the sbarro bombing, and the photographs of all the empty baby carriages, burn deep in my mind.

this is not civilized society my friend.

peace,
Tree
 
38WiddleAvi
      Donor
      ID: 2101079
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 22:21
I don't like it when people compare the 2 sides as if it's back and forth.

It is very clear to me that Israel would gladly sit down and negotiate peace if they were guaranteed to be able to live in peace. For some reason I dont feel the same applies to the Palestinians(Although I do think a majority of Palestinians would want true peace. It's just a shame that their leadership shows otherwise).

Israel wins land in war; Israel is attacked by terrorists; Israel gives back land won in said war.

Arafat IS a terrorist who realized that if he can run a better PR campaign than Israel then he has a decent chance of getting what he wants. So what we have here is a KNOWN terrorist who "changed his ways"; If you believe that he really wants peace and not the complete destruction of Israel then I have a bridge..........
 
39katietx
      ID: 202431517
      Mon, Mar 17, 2003, 22:41
Yes, and he does all this while under house arrest and whining...pitiful!
 
40Box Lunch
      ID: 472511721
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 00:05
Myboyjack

Bravo Post #3 You said it ALL!

 
41Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 13:53
Heart rendering letters sent home from Rachael Corrie

Please read these letters and hopefully you'll realize what a wonderful woman this world has lost.

Michael and Katie, you can create all the cognitive dissonance you like, telling yourself that it was "just an accident", but really you are truly insulting her memory. Face it, she was murdered. I can accept "She placed herself in harm's way, she risked her life" but I will not EVER accept the fact that a vicious killer ran her over and we will let him off.

The demonization of Palestinians amongst so many Americans is digusting.

the sbarro bombing, and the photographs of all the empty baby carriages, burn deep in my mind

You expose a selfishness that completely betrays your claims to being about "Peace" or "Love", Tree when you only shed a tear for the tragic Isreali victims and come up with excuses for the exponentially more Palistinian ones.
 
42katietx
      ID: 202431517
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 13:58
SZ, if she was purposely killed (like you say) why then was she the only one? Seems to me the dozer operator had an opportunity to take out more than one, doesn't it?
 
43Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 14:01
What are you getting at? You call that logic, Katie?
 
44Punk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 598521312
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 15:17
Basically I think it comes down to if you think the person driving the Dozer could see her or not. Personally in my view sometimes you can't see people when your driving a car, so I could understand if you couldn't driving a Dozer. Not sure if its an excuse, but still.
 
45walk
      Leader
      ID: 4112711
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 15:21
Yeah, this murder thing does come down to what Punk42AE says in post #44. And the other point that seems to have much headway here is the risk assessment made by Rachel: Was she considering the likelihood that the driver either could not see her or did not care (or was under orders)? And if so, did she care about any of the possibilities (i.e. she may have decided that she would give her life for this cause -- although that does not seem as plausible).

Either way, I really respect her ideals and her efforts, but obviously, her demise is a huge shame, for her and so many others.

War sucks.

- walk
 
46Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 15:28
Why don't people read the articles before posting? She was standing off with this bulldozer driver FOR THIRTY MINUTES! She climbed onto the cab and argued with him. Didn't see her? Don't bother to post if you don't know what we are talking about.
 
47sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 15:36
all else aside Zen, standing in/near/around a demolition zone is a VERY dangerous thing to do. To do so while 'protesting' an undertaking which is under military orders, from a nation who for all accounts and purposes has existed under a form of 'marshall law' for decades, is in fact suicidal. Its a shame the girl is dead, yes. Its also her own fault.
 
48Dec
      ID: 27226613
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 15:44
Sarge-
Imagine you're the girl's father, don't you want to take the first flight to Israel and introduce yourself to the bulldozer driver?
 
49walk
      Leader
      ID: 4112711
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 15:46
SZ: Chill. I know I have read, and read, and read, and even posted that I have read, BUTT:

1) There seem to be conflicting accounts as to what actually happenend. Sure she MAY have argued with him, but then maybe she climbed down and he thought she walked away. A myriad of possibilities exist....leading me to point #2:...

2) ... WE (including YOU, oh ye of forum arrogance) have little, if any clue, as to what REALLY happened. By READING anything or everything we may know: (a) more than the average person or, believe it or not (b) less than the average person. WHO really knows?

Who really knows if Saddam has WoMD?
Who really knows if Bush is calling the shots?
Who really knows if [fiull in the blank with something humorous you like mucho here]
Who really knows much about any of this "he said, she said" stuff?

We have research, most of which varies on some continuum of bias, and some of which is selectively chosen to fit our preconceived ideas, our own preconceived notions to begin with that filter our thoughts, and come to our conclusions based on a combination of this unequally tossed salad of our's. Either way, none of us are cameras about events we witness, let alone read about and then opine on, so please, chill on those outbursts. We all have our views, and we are all more or less UNinformed.

- walk
 
50Punk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 598521312
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 15:48
Exactly walk. You can never believe anything anymore unless you see it with your own two eyes. Propagandy is all over, spewed by all different sides. If you want to believe something you read on the internet, or something you see on the news, go all for it, but the likelyhood if it being 100% correct is very slim.
 
51sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 16:26
actually Dec, I'd have talked myself blue in the face trying to keep her from going. Death in the Middle East is too easily achieved. The times are ugly and the situation even worse. To answer your question, no. It would be a bitter pill to swallow, but it was her own fault.
 
52Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 17:24
SZ - i'll address your point.

"the sbarro bombing, and the photographs of all the empty baby carriages, burn deep in my mind

You expose a selfishness that completely betrays your claims to being about "Peace" or "Love", Tree when you only shed a tear for the tragic Isreali victims and come up with excuses for the exponentially more Palistinian ones"

you seem to pull out of what i said, what you want me to think.

i feel for anyone who dies in this conflict. it is a tragedy anytime something other than "natural causes" takes someone away.

however, there is a world of difference between:

mothers and children eatting pizza at lunch time or teenagers waiting to go dancing on saturday night...
and
armed men, women, and children, designing bombs to destroy civillians or throwing firebombs at soldiers.

any death is an unfortunate one - but if you bring it on yourself, the sympathies are a lot less.

peace,
Tree
 
53Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 17:30
on a secondary nature, SZ, i have been there. and my family is there right now.

nothing would make me happier to have peace in that region.

at least TWICE the Palestinian leadership has been offered has been offered land, where their people currently reside, for a Palestinian homeland.

and both times - in 1947 and 2000, that offer was declined. the first time led directly to war, the second played a role in the current uprising.

there have been opportunities for peace. in fact, there's an opportunity now. if the suicide bombings by Hezzbollah, Hamas, and the rest cease, peace will be around the corner.

but how likely is that, as those groups have said they will not stop until there is no Israel.

so tell me SZ, where is the peaceful effort by these people?

peace,
Tree

 
54katietx
      ID: 202431517
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 19:46
OMG! This is indeed the fortelling of the end of the world. OMG!


I agree with Tree!

Think I'll go have a drink, or a nap, or.........

 
55Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 20:57
Katie - this is the second time in THIS thread we've agreed. LOL...

heck, sarge and i even agreed once...

peace,
Tree
 
56katietx
      ID: 202431517
      Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 22:08
Yeah, but we don't agree on the vote tonite! "-)

*American Idol*

 
57Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 07:33
well, Clay Aiken is a close second for me, followed by Trenyce, or whatever her name is. :o)
 
58yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 512231816
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 08:05
Sorry, no matter how many "heart rending letters" Rachel sent home (sz 41), the fact remains that this young woman was in the wrong place at the wrong time. (And I'm sure that plenty of convicts send "heart rending letters" home, too. Her coorespondence proves NOTHING.) I think mads (13) post is a much more accurate picture of who this girl was. Tragic though her death is, keep in mind as you lament her loss and beatify her, that if she wasn't a spoiled kid from Washington, we wouldn't even have heard about this incident.

I find that as hard as I try to feel for Ms. Corrie, I couldn't care less.
 
59Khahan
      ID: 3127107
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 08:20
They vow to block federal buildings, military compounds and streets in a rash of peaceful civil disobedience. They say they will walk out of college classes, picket outside city halls and state capitols, and recite prayers of mourning at interfaith services,
That's a quote from the link SH posted in 25.
So, the protesters will walk out of their college classes and think that will stop the war? Lets see, if I deprive myself of my own education, people will realize that a war is wrong and stop the fighting.
Yeah, that will work.
And when you fail out of college for missing all your classes, please don't come to me for public assistance or handouts.
 
60Khahan
      ID: 3127107
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 08:26
Something else that just dawned on me, the link in post 13 by Myboyjack has some fantastic photos.
Anybody can look at these photos and tell they are A)staged (the tractor aint moving in any of them) and B) staged by the Solidarity movement people.
..
Well, that tells us 1 of 2 things. This was either all planned and they took those photos ahead of time in which case, they are very guilty of a felony. Or after their 'friend' and comrade died, instead of seeing to her, they decided to work the media angle on this and further their cause. That's just cold and heartless to a point that is beyond excusable.
 
61Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 12:52
spoiled kid from Washington

I find that as hard as I try to feel for Ms. Corrie, I couldn't care less


What a truly disgusting settiment. Spoken like a rugby player - Jagermeister and vomit smelling words smirked out of a studdering mouth joining the hoops and hollers of fellow teammates as they high five themselves over the unconscious body of their latest gang rape. Thanks for sharing, Yankeeh8tr.

Khahan - the photos are staged? The bulldozer is not moving, that's your proof? It sure would be nice to pretend that Ms. Corrie was killed by her own naivite and pin the murder on the "heartless" International Solidarity Movement, but the sad truth is she was run over by a bulldozer. If you can't handle this, I don't know how you can participate in a discussion about it.
 
62Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 13:11
she was run over. and she's dead. and it's sad that it's dead, and it's a tragedy that she's dead.

where i live in NYC, there's a major 8-lane roadway called Queens Blvd. It's known as the Boulevard of Death, because in the past 10 years about 30 people have died trying to dash across it against the light instead of waiting for the "walk" sign at the cross-walk.

while every single one of those deaths was tragic, they came because someone was acting like a fool, and brought it upon themselves.

the same thing can be said about rachel corrie. her death is tragic. it can't be said enough.

but she brought it upon herself. heck, looking at those pictures, i'm not even sure i see a horizontal part of the 'dozer's blade that is even capable of supporting the width of a human being's feet.

whether the photos are real or doctored is only part of the issue. what is of issue is that someone died, and sadly, they went a long way in bringing on their own death.

also SZ, please go back and read post 53. i asked you a question, because i'm curious as to how people who believe differently than me in the israeli-palestinian situation feel about them

i've never had a chance to ask someone, because usually, when i do, their shoving a palestinian flag in my face and calling me a dirty jew and a murderer.

here is a c&p of post 53:

"on a secondary nature, SZ, i have been there. and my family is there right now.

nothing would make me happier to have peace in that region.

at least TWICE the Palestinian leadership has been offered has been offered land, where their people currently reside, for a Palestinian homeland.

and both times - in 1947 and 2000, that offer was declined. the first time led directly to war, the second played a role in the current uprising.

there have been opportunities for peace. in fact, there's an opportunity now. if the suicide bombings by Hezzbollah, Hamas, and the rest cease, peace will be around the corner.

but how likely is that, as those groups have said they will not stop until there is no Israel.

so tell me SZ, where is the peaceful effort by these people?"

peace,
Tree
 
63Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 13:31
You ask for a "peaceful effort" from a people who are living with the boot of the Isreali Army crushing their throat, an Uzi pointed at their head. Sadly, there would be no problem if they would all just die like the Native Americans 200 years ago. Perhaps this is Sharon's strategy.

Don't bring up the 2000 peace offer. If Isreal really wanted peace, give up the entire West Bank and Gaza and Jeruselem to create a Palestinian state. There are a minority of Palestinians who want to eliminate Isreal altogether, just as there are a minority of Republicans who want to eliminate the UN. Everyone forgets that the fast majority of Palestinians worked in Isreal and many had very prosperous, happy lives. These positive relations can happen again, eliminating any positive consequenses from future bombings.

But if you believe Palestinians are human cockroaches, then just keep up your extermination program. I'd give you Slobodan Milosevich's number in the Hauge, but you seem to have a pretty good grasp of the process.
 
64Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 14:20
SZ - have you BEEN to israel????

the only time there are guns pointed at Palestinians is when they are throwing rocks and firebombs at soldiers, or when soldiers go in after yet another suicide bomber strikes.

the holiest site in all of Judaism (and yes, several other religions) is Jerusalem. never in a millions years would Israel give that up in its entirety.

HOWEVER, in 1947, the first time that Palestinian leadership turned down statehood, Jerusalem was to be an "international" city, controlled by neither the israelis nor the palestinians.

this offer was not good enough - why would it be good enough now?

one question i brought up, which you neglected to address: whether minority or not, there are people who will not stop the suicide bombings until israel completely ceases to exist. this "minority" has killed several hundred israeli's over the past few years - who will control and stop these people?

secondly, i don't believe the palestinians are cockroaches - that's bullshirt rhetoric used by people who refuse to believe someone who is pro-israeli can also be pro-peace for the region.

the palestinians are victims - they are refugees created by war. that is an absolute fact.

refugees usually, eventually, flee to other countries - sadly, none of the "brother" nations - syria, lebanon, egypt, and jordan for starters, ever wanted the palestinians in their counties. it would have been easy enough to accept them, but they were refused entry.

it is a world-wide problem, but it has fallen into the hands of the israelis, who must bear the brunt of suicide bombers, who, no one, has the ability to stop.

it's a double-edged sword SZ -

the Palestinian leadership is powerless to stop the suicide bombers, and even if a Palestinian state is created, the bombers will continue.

and when the Israelis go in to attempt to eradicate as many people involved in the bombing as possible, people such as yourself cry how horrible the Israelis are.

so, who stops the suicide bombers, SZ, who stops them?

peace,
Tree

 
65walk
      Leader
      ID: 4112711
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 14:25
I am also Jewish and living in NYC (Tree), but find it hard to think that there will ever be peace between Israel and the Palestinians as long as both groups of folks are in the region, period. They are both resting on centuries of claims to the land, both geographically, culturally and religiously, and each feels as if they have been persecuted endlessly. This is a dynamic with wrongs on both sides. On the one hand, it would be swell if folks could leave the little Jewish state alone already and let them live, but on the other hand, they have always lived hand in hand with the people Israel is at war, and this will require concessions of the magnitude of: "here, alraedy, take this gaza west strip and a piece of Jerusalem and let's call it a day..." Fat chance.

I know that I would not think it worth it to live in an area where ALL of my neighboring countries wish my country was annhilated. I would throw in the cards and take my chances crossing Queens Blvd. Things aint never gonna change there until there is a massive war or a massive exile or a massive concession of land to the Palestinians.

Regarding Rachel, again she put herself in harm's way, but it seems that the harmer could have done more to ensure the safety of unarmed protesters.

- walk
 
66steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 14:53


What's with the city of Olympia and Patty Murray's 'great' state of Washington?

Jody Mason of Olympia is locked to the Washington State Grange office building Tuesday to protest war. He intended to chain himself to a federal Department of Energy office building,

Grange employees found him about 11:45 a.m. Tuesday and asked what he was doing.

He told employees he'd chained himself to the building in civil disobedience Monday night after listening to President Bush's televised ultimatum to Saddam Hussein.

Mason padlocked one end of the chain around his neck and the other to a door, which opens to a bottom-floor office.

Grange employees explained that he was at the wrong building. The Grange is a nonprofit, nonpartisan group that advocates for residents in rural areas.

 
67chopper
      ID: 33108414
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 16:12
That's what they want you to believe steve.... :^)
 
68Micheal
      ID: 12744225
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 16:27
I've read alot of articles about this incident, but nowhere have I read about her having a 30 minute stand-off with the driver of the bulldozer. There were 2 bulldozers and they destroyed three buildings that were already partially destroyed. The ISM activists (Corrie and her 7 friends) then set up shop in the area and used bullhorns to harass the drivers.

According to ISM activists, at one stage the IDF forces left the area and took up positions near the border, a few hundred meters away.

But around 5 P.M., the force returned, and the activists assumed the bulldozers were on their way to other houses. "They began demolishing one house," said an ISM activist, who said his name was Richard. "We gathered around and called out to them and went into the house, so they backed out. During the entire time they knew who we were and what we were doing, because they didn't shoot at us. We stood in their way and shouted. There were about eight of us in an area about 70 square meters. Suddenly, we saw they turned to a house they had started to demolish before, and I saw Rachel standing in the way of the front bulldozer."

According to the ISM activist, Corrie was wearing a bright jacket and climbed onto the bulldozer shovel-plow and began shouting at the driver. "There's no way he didn't see her, since she was practically looking into the cabin. At one stage, he turned around toward the building. The bulldozer kept moving, and she slipped and fell off the plow. But the bulldozer kept moving, the shovel above her. I guess it was about 10 or 15 meters that it dragged her and for some reason didn't stop. We shouted like crazy to the driver through loudspeakers that he should stop, but he just kept going and didn't lift the shovel. Then it stopped and backed up. We ran to Rachel. She was still breathing."


If they were intent on just murdering people and blatantly running them over, then why pull out when they occupied the house the first time? Why not just run them over too? Or just shoot them?Nobody is denying that she was run over. She obviously was. Why would the driver reverse over her? Probably because he didn't know she had fell off and had been run over.

I just can't fathom how Corrie supporters feel that she is completly blameless in her own death.
 
69yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 512231816
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 16:42
What a truly disgusting settiment. Spoken like a rugby player - Jagermeister and vomit smelling words smirked out of a studdering mouth joining the hoops and hollers of fellow teammates as they high five themselves over the unconscious body of their latest gang rape. Thanks for sharing, Yankeeh8tr.


Since you're reknowned for your wit, Zen, I'll do you the favor of assuming that this tirade is (at least) partialy tounge in cheek. Sorry for having a dramaticly different opinion from you here. I'd also like to point out that I did state that I thought her death was a tragedy. An entirely avoidable one, but a tragedy none the less.

And I hate Jager. But way to do your own bit of gross stereotyping from atop your white steed of moral superority.

 
70yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 512231816
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 16:47
One last thing, zen - way to ignore the larger point that if she wasn't a disaffected, white, middle class college student from Washington, you wouldn't have even given the story a second thought. How many nameless Palestinians have died in the exact same manner? Bet those individuals don't make the evening news on the West Coast.
 
71sarge33rd
      ID: 381154278
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 17:05
Zen, QUIT already. The Palestinians have had chance after chance to have their own state. The only problem has been, THEY WANT THE SAME DAMN LAND THAT ISREAL SITS UPON. In other wordfs, 'we want our state, but only if it does away with the state of Isreal." The Palestinian leadership (Arafat) has worked tirelessly for over 30 years to kill Isrealis at every opportunity. You yourself, do yourself no favors, when you so vehemently defend terrorist organizations. Oh wait, you're a lawyer. Its your job. I forgot.
 
72WiddleAvi
      Donor
      ID: 361032112
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 17:18
If Isreal really wanted peace, give up the entire West Bank and Gaza and Jeruselem to create a Palestinian state.

Have you seen the size of Israel ?
Whats next ?? Tel Aviv ? Haifa ?

I think that if they want their own state then let them go to Iraq after the war and make it a palestinian state. YOu think Arafat will accept that ?? Probably not because it will mean Israel still exists.

Israel won Gaza & West bank in wars in which they were attacked. Now they have to give it back ??

I'm curious if Israel had LOST any of those previous wars would the Palestinians be giving any land back to Israel ?? I think not !

First they tried to destroy Israel but when that didn't work they tried Terrorism and Politics. Well I'm sorry but it just does't work like that.
 
73Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 17:37
I understood your "larger" point. You want praise for being consistent: You don't give a $hit when a Palistinian is murdered by an Isreali solider and you also don't give a $hit when Rachael Corrie gets it. Why couldn't she just be a good little sorority girl and stay home to have sex with the football team like everyone else?

With young Americans staying away from the polls in droves, refusing to read the newspaper or pay attention to the issues that affect our planet, you have a gall to disparage Rachael's spirit before her body is even cold. You mock her beliefs as she died for them.

You are wrong. I follow this conflict closely and read many accounts detailing the numerous, daily tragedies that befall the Palestinian people. I started this thread because Rachael Corrie's death is a symbol of many, many deaths at the hands of a callus, vicious Isreali army.
 
74walk
      Leader
      ID: 4112711
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 17:45
Booooo, SZ. On a more cerebral front, I see both sides as having their fair share of callousness and viciousness, but tend to side with Israel who seems to always be facing opposition from one nation, people or another. Their people have folded tent many times before in their history and paid for it dearly. Ever since they said "no more," and now they attack/defend ferociously.

It's very difficult to assign blame in this conflict, and very easy to find many innocents who have suffered needlessly, on both sides.

- walk
 
75Bungers
      Leader
      ID: 571172714
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 17:53
Wow. Zennie has always been way out there on many topics, and completely right on others, but now he has his usual supporters in an uproar. Becoming the PGunn of the Politics Forum, eh? ;)
 
76Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 17:56
SZ, you said:
"With young Americans staying away from the polls in droves, refusing to read the newspaper or pay attention to the issues that affect our planet, you have a gall to disparage Rachael's spirit before her body is even cold. You mock her beliefs as she died for them. "

which means, you didn't read *ANY* of the posts where i called her death an absolute tragedy. if that's mockery, then so be it - i mocked.

but let's talk about gall and "cold body" cliches.

her body hasn't even been cold when those who support suicide bombers use her death as a symbol of "israeli oppression"....

that's a reality - from your post, to the photos (real or not), her body isn't even cold, and she's being used to further a cause that relies heavily on people strapping themselves with bombs and blowing themselves and others up on buses, near discos, and in pizza joints.

peace,

Tree

p.s., as i've asked SZ, who stops the suicide bombers?
 
77katietx
      ID: 202431517
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 18:01
Rachael Corrie's death is a symbol of many, many deaths at the hands of a callus, vicious Israeli army.

SZ - are you inferring then that Palestinians who strap bombs to their bodies and board buses full of Israeli children aren't callus and viscious? If so, do we then conclude that these actions are condoned because they are under the boot of the Israeli army?

In parallel: If the above conjecture is correct, then who goes after Saddam for gassing the Kurds? Who goes after Saddam for sending his rape squads out in the country? I suppose Israel should just sit by if Saddam starts lobbing scuds again. Whose boot is on Saddam's neck to make his actions okay in your book?


 
78Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 18:03
Post 70 was a response to Yankeeh8tr only, Tree.

Bungers - yeah, many reasonable people lose all semblance of justice when the Isreal issue arises. It's sad, really.
 
79yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 512231816
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 18:07
LOL...I'm not looking for praise for anything, zen. Least of all from a lawyer/blogger who has the audacidy to lecture me on whether or not my moral code is up to snuff.

For the record, Corries' spirit and fire are to be commended. Her death is a tragedy. And I don't think she should stayed at home to sleep with the football team. Again, way to put words in my mouth and/or make gross generalizations.

But sorry, I don't agree with her beliefs. And yeah, I may have mocked them (where, I'd love to see - it wasn't in this thread), but I haven't reached PC sainthood yet. And I don't agree with the spin that the ISM is giving us about her demise. And you seem to be lapping that up as gospel truth. I would have thought that you'd have recognized the fact that you're being led by the nose, but I guess if the source is telling you what you want to hear, it doesn't matter that ISM is getting better mileage out of Rachel dead.
 
80yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 512231816
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 18:11
And let's lose the benighted saint picture that starts the thread and replace it with this snap of poor peaceful Rachel.



It's more appropriate to her "spirit".
 
81katietx
      ID: 202431517
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 18:19
Yankee...no pic here :-(
 
82yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 512231816
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 18:32
It no come out...it just picture from post 13. No good computer me.
 
83Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 18:43


I'm guessing this was the desired pic?
 
84WiddleAvi
      Donor
      ID: 2101079
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 18:48
 
85Micheal
      ID: 412281014
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 19:02
deja vu
 
86Khahan @ home
      ID: 41117420
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 19:26
SZ from post 61 (sorry, I've been away for a while today) Khahan - the photos are staged? The bulldozer is not moving, that's your proof? It sure would be nice to pretend that Ms. Corrie was killed by her own naivite and pin the murder on the "heartless" International Solidarity Movement, but the sad truth is she was run over by a bulldozer. If you can't handle this, I don't know how you can participate in a discussion about it.
..
Umm, what exactly is your point? Yes, we all know that she was run over by a bulldozer. My point is that the photos that are put out on the palsolidarity page ARE STAGED. They are staged by the people who were her so-called friends. They were staged by people who, if they cared so much about Corrie, should have been mourning her loss. Maybe trying to communicate w/ her family about what happened. There were a million things, as a friend, I would have done. Not one of those things is stage phony photos of somebody dressed like Corrie standing in front of a bulldozer.
Yes, they are staged. Look at "Corrie" in these photos. Somebody is holding a pose (yes, I have studied anatomy, kineseology, and body mechanics very closely for 5 years, there is no doubt the person in the photo is just standing there).
Think about it, who takes a camera to a rally?
"Stop the war, down with the regime. Topple our oppres..ohh hold that pose, let me get a shot of you."
In 2 of the pictures, Corrie is about 3 feet from the bulldozer. If you were the photographer and a friend, would you a)take a picture or b) try to do SOMETHING, even if its yelling at her to move since the bulldozer is obviously not moving.
Shame on the Solidarity Movement for what they have done. They took a tragic death and a tragic indicident. Rather than learn from it, they tried to twist it into something it was not. The staged photos are sickening and take a very cold hearted person to have done.
 
87Khahan @ home
      ID: 41117420
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 19:35
For a bit of reference in my last post, check out the pictures (sorry, I dont know how to post a picture here)
Click here then scroll down. There will be a picture of a girl in a red/orange sweater w/ 2 white stripes standing to the side of bulldozer. That is the first staged picture.
.
Now, go further down the page. There is a picture (from the left of the people in the picture) of the 'same girl' standing in front of a bulldozer. Notice a couple of things: In this picture, the girl is on the other side of the bulldozer (left instead of right like the previous picture), the bulldozer is much larger and has a different blade on the front. There is also a wall a few feet behind the girl. In the previous photo, the photographer would have to have been well on the other side of that wall to capture the image he did.
Now, go just down the page, you'll see a link about how the palsolidarity did not secure their image gallery and then published the pictures, for ease: here is one of the links
...
Now, take a look at those pictures. Can you tell me, in all honesty that those photos are not staged?
That's all I ask is a simple answer. Do you think the photos are staged? Or do you think those are photos of the event as it was unfolding?
One more question, w/ all those photos, where is a photo of Corrie actually riding the tractor?
Or would that have been too dangerous to stage do you think?
 
88Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 312481619
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 20:16
Khahan, cameras are by no means a rarity at protests. Protestors bring them. People who come to see the protestors as a novelty bring them. Media there to report on the protests bring them Both supporters and opponents of the protests bring them. I have no idea why you would think otherwise. There were three other photos of her and her protestor friends. Some one with a camera must have taken them, no? Those shots give no indication of how many people were there, including press. Who nows how many cameras were there.

The blog is BS. You and it speak as if those photos were shot in a span of 30 seconds. You're right about the fact that the bulldozer isn't moving. The two photos could have been taken hours apart, what difference does that make? It was a standoff. No one is claiming the dozer drove in from 100 yards away and never looked back or slowed down or stopped. That standoff lasted 2 hours. Read the article.

As a member of the animal kingdom, Rachel was capable of physical movement via, among other means, bipedal walking. Knowing a thing or two about the animal kingdom myself, particularly Rachel's specific genus and species, I can tell you that it is very rare for homo sapiens to stand completly motionless over extended periods of time. Frankly, I'd be a lot more likely to question the validity of the photos if her feet were in the exact same spots in the second pic as they are in the first.

Further evidence that these photos are not taken in immediate succession is the change in daylight. This is the link from the subject field.

The reason for the difference in terrain is that they are before and after pictures. The nature of what a bulldozer does is that it 'unearths' the terrain in front of it as it moves foward. If the "after" shot still showed plenty of grass on the ground, I might think something was strange.

More, look here:


There is a gate in the chain link fence behind her friend who is standing behind her. Personally, I think there is plenty of room between her and the fence to snap off the shot you see, but for anyone who disagrees, the photographer has a few more feet to step back before the fence gets into the shot. As far as your claim that we are looking at two different bulldozers, the one oin the side shot isn't necessarilary larger. By nature, objects that are further away look smaller to us. This phenomenon is often exaggerated in photography, depending on the kind of lens being used. In the side-view photo, how high do you think the top of that chain-link fence is? Since there appears to only be a few inchses of space between Rachel's head and the the metal bar running along the top of the fence, are you saying that fence is only a few inches higher than she is tall?

I cannot tell you in all honesty that those photos are not staged. But in all honesty I don't see any evidence to make me think they are.
 
89Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 20:27
SZ you said:
"Post 70 was a response to Yankeeh8tr only, Tree.

Bungers - yeah, many reasonable people lose all semblance of justice when the Isreal issue arises. It's sad, really. "

1. post 70 was a post BY Yankeeh8tr. so what post are you referring to?

2. if that's the case, respond to my post. since the palestinians won't stop their own suicide bombers, and apparently, the israelis are not allowed to, then who, pretell, will stop the suicide bombers?

3. your response to bungers says it all. one has rarely spoken truer words about one's self than you did in that one line.

peace,
Tree
 
90Pancho Villa
      Donor
      ID: 46113919
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 20:35
#86 and 87..bizzare and irrelevant.

A few people have posted that, although tragic, her death was somewhat inevitable, seeing as how she put herself in a volatile position doing something she firmly believed in, with, I assume, no pay, strictly for the principal which you may argue is valid or not.

I am wondering if people will take the same callous attitude about American servicemen and women who will soon be dying for voluntarily putting themselves in a volatile situation, doing something they feel is right, upholding the principals of democracy, ridding the world of an evil despot.

Is death any less noble for her than for any US serviceperson that dies? Is her cause and her death less important because it hasn't the backing of the US government nor popular support among those who feel that destruction is usually a better answer than construction? This woman travelled across the globe because she felt that she could make a positive difference in the world. SZ is right when he says typecasting her as a white, middle-class sorority sister is to mock her. She deserves the same respect as the fighter pilot that is shot down over Baghdad. Both risk their lives to make a statement, and whether or not you agree with the message, it doesn't detract from the action.
 
91tduncan
      ID: 423452813
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 23:02
I have got so much to say about this issue, but my englush is not very good so I will only start with this:

from post 63 "If Isreal really wanted peace, give up the entire West Bank and Gaza and Jeruselem to create a Palestinian state."

Thats pretty much all the they are asking for... Wich brings me to the point I have a problem with - you call for a peace negotiations, yet in the end, we have to give everything they are asking for... isn't the point of the peace talks is for each side to give us some inorder for both sides to reach the common goal? While Israel has shown its will to make the neccessary, and extremely tough sacrefises for peace, he Palestinians have never gave up on anything. When Orlando Pace is asking the Rams for $85M with a $23M bonus he doensn't really think he gonna get it, but thats his starting point. Each side will cave a little, and at the end he will sign a contract. The Palestinians seem to think that negotiations means "if we don't get what we want we go back to terror". And untill they change this approache, nothing is gonna change.
 
92WiddleAvi
      Donor
      ID: 2101079
      Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 23:19
bravo td
 
93Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 06:45
steps off the podium, and allows TD to step up. for someone who says their english is not that good, you spoke some true words amigo.

peace,
Tree
 
94sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 13:06
let me add my kudos to td for making an extremely valid point. (and btw, your English was perfectly effective in doing so.)
 
95Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 13:23
sarge, will you and katie quit agreeing with me?? you're killing my schtick! ;o)

peace,
Tree
 
96sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 13:29
agreed Tree. ;) as sayeth the raven, "nevermore!"
(but then, its not MY fault that you're coming aorund. lmao)
 
97katietx
      ID: 202431517
      Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 13:35
Like I said...is the fortelling of the end of the world? "-) Both of us agreeing with Tree, or is that Tree agreeing with us? *s
 
98Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 13:46
well kids, y'all might have a few years on me (although i'm getting up there), but my folks just returned from israel this morning (an hour before their flight last night was the first attack on baghdad - my step-mom was freakin' out), i've had one younger brother serve in the israeli army, and my youngest brother is already in the midst of testing for the israeli air force, and starts in 2 weeks.

i've been pro-israel (NOT anti-peace or anti-palestinian) since before i could probably talk. LOL

peace,
Tree
 
99katietx
      ID: 202431517
      Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 13:49
I've always found it odd that if you don't march with the peace demonstrators that you are automatically considered "pro-war."

In my case, nothing could be further from the truth.

 
100steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 13:54
This will kill this thread. I agree with tree and td.

'Negotiation' is a two way street, not just demands.
 
101sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 13:58
OMG!!!! hell hath indeed frozen over.
 
102Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Fri, Mar 21, 2003, 07:06
not quite ready to let this die, even if the three people who i normally disagree with most agree with me - let's have a beer guys! LOL

i'm still waiting for SZ's answer on who can/will/should stop the suicide bombers...

also, i figured i'd throw in this map - it's the U.N. Partition plan of 1947.

while i don't like the coloration of this map, and there are plenty of others on the web (just do a google search for "united nations partition plan 1947", i felt it was the best link to use, since it's posted on a site that is neither pro-israel, nor pro-palestinian.

if you look at israel, north from the Gulf of Aqaba to the northern tip of the Golan, east of Lebanon's southeastern border, you'll see that the land was pretty evenly split. not quite 50-50 - i think the numbers were like 52% of the land for Israel, and 48% for a Palestinian state - with Jerusalem being an "international" city within the Palestinian state.

having spent time in Israel, it's hard to imagine not having unfettered access to Jerusalem, but that's how it would have been, and Israel was willing to settle for that.

looking back, it boggles my mind that the Palestinian leadership turned down these borders.

1947 partition map here

peace,
Tree
 
103Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Tue, Mar 25, 2003, 12:57
The thruth about the Corrie photos


A call back to Joe Smith about the sequence of the pix revealed another unknown fact. Smith said that no one was on the spot with a camera before Rachel Corrie was mauled by the bulldozer, and that the picture of Rachel with the megaphone had been taken many hours earlier..

 
104Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Mar 25, 2003, 13:04
There's nothing in that article that contradicts anything in my post 88. If anything, it's evidence that the blog linked in 13 was way off.
 
105Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Tue, Mar 25, 2003, 13:06
Tree 102 I'm not reading this entire thread ... but your map point is important.

it boggles my mind that the Palestinian leadership turned down these borders

Not knowing where you stand, I can say that this doesn't boggle my mind at all. The Palestinians wanted to prevent Israel from existing and now want to eliminate Israel. They are willing to die to see this objective won. This is why they have basically refused to end their war. It really is as simple as that.
 
106Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Mar 25, 2003, 13:10
Well, from that point, yes, it's not mind-boggling at all. it's really a shame, because peace was entirely in the hands of the Palestinians, and they didn't want anything to do with it.

they've shown that for them, murder and terror are a way to attempt to get things accomplished, and those who would support them with words fall strangely silent when the fact of rejected land distribution is pointed out to them.

peace,
Tree
 
107KnicksFan
      Donor
      ID: 439341814
      Tue, Mar 25, 2003, 21:10
102- I just want to note that the majority of the land that was partitioned for Israel in 1947 (the bottom half of the map) is just desert, so the Palestinian half was probably better land.
 
108Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Tue, Mar 25, 2003, 21:13
KF - preaching to the converted here. But apparently Rev. SZ and his choir are no longer visiting this church.

peace,
Tree
 
109KnicksFan
      Donor
      ID: 439341814
      Tue, Mar 25, 2003, 21:26
If only the Palestinians had as keen a sense of real estate value as us Jews, this whole conflict would have been over in '47. ;)
 
110Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Tue, Mar 25, 2003, 22:01
hey man, they still got the oil, and we got the sand.. ;o)
 
111Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Wed, Mar 26, 2003, 13:03
Y'all forget that regardless of what partition you agreed to in 1947, you would have taken the land in the Six Day War in 1967. We'd still be right here.
 
112Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Mar 26, 2003, 13:12
If there was a settlement in '46 - would there have been a war in '67? Only if you believe that the Arabs would never allow any state of Israel and that any agreement, as far as the Arabs were concerned, was a temporary halt to their long term and often stated goal of destroying Israel altogether. You're right, Zen, only if you belive that the Arab nations are not capable of negotiating in good faith.
 
113Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 30216620
      Wed, Mar 26, 2003, 14:22
Fair question, MBJ, and perhaps there never would have been. I admit that period of history is not my forte.
 
114Tree, also @ work
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Mar 26, 2003, 17:42
SZ - please go review it - before sympathizing with the palestinians in the PRESENT, read up on what happened in the PAST to lead to this point. that's all i can ask.

peace,
Tree
 
115Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Fri, Mar 28, 2003, 19:59
International Solidarity Movement shields wanter murderer and member of the militant Islamic Jihad group
 
116Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Fri, May 02, 2003, 20:09
British bombers posed as peace activists

The two British suicide bombers who blew up a seafront bar in Tel Aviv, killing three people, had posed earlier as peace activists, acting as "human shields" for Palestinians, sources in the Gaza Strip said yesterday.

A Western pro-Palestinian activist said the two later took part in a protest march in Rafah to commemorate Rachel Corrie, an American "human shield" killed by an Israeli bulldozer last March.

"As soon as I heard the names, my heart sank," he said. "I did not need to see the picture, but when the picture came, they are there."

Hanif and Sharif returned to Israel to carry out the attack on a tourist bar called Mike's Place, close to the American embassy, early on Wednesday.

 
117Tree
      Donor
      ID: 38249212
      Fri, May 02, 2003, 21:08
amazing news, but not exactly surprising. it's already been revealed that the "peace" group who used Rachel Corrie as a pawn for their cause housed and hid known terrorists.

peace,
Tree
 
118Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Fri, Jun 27, 2003, 14:15
Israelis clear themselves in Rachel Corine death
 
119Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Thu, Sep 25, 2003, 21:09
I just threw up in my mouth
 
120Tree
      Donor
      ID: 178492518
      Thu, Sep 25, 2003, 21:23
i'd like to nominate Rachel Corrie's parents for the first annual "let's hang out and hug and love and make out with and have some really dirty hot monkey sex with the idiot really responsible for our daughter's death" award.
 
121Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 217351118
      Thu, Sep 25, 2003, 21:58
Ugh
 
122yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 408112010
      Fri, Sep 26, 2003, 20:34
F*ck them - let 'em stay in Ramallah indefinitely and work for "justice" since they love it so much. Thank god I haven't eaten recently or I'd be sick too. Calling Rachel a "peace activist" is like calling David Duke a human rights activist.
 
123Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 55343019
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 14:34
Those last three posts were pathetic and truly sad. Hope you don't ever have to deal with losing a child.
 
124Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 14:48
I can't think of a class of people who deserve more leeway and less judgement than grieving parents. But when you choose to travel to the arms of a terrorist thug and make a political statement out of your child's death, you've played out that leeway, as far as I'm concerned.

Part of making a statement is the response it elicits. Rachel Corrie's death doesn't make Arafat any less a thug, the terrorists her organization helped shelter any less murderous, or the people (like her parents) who try use her death to continue supporting thugs and murderers any less useful idiots.
 
125Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 15:15
man, it really is weird sitting on the same side of the fence as you MBJ... :o) couldn't have said what you just said any better myself...
 
126Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 15:48
Here, here. 8]
 
127yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 28812914
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 16:04
Sorry zen, I'm afraid I'll have to echo the general sentiments here. I find that I usually agree with you, but Corries partents lost any sympathy I could feel for them when they chose to politicise her death.
 
128biliruben
Leader       ID: 49132614
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 17:00
Uhh... if her death wasn't already completely political, I don't know who's has been.

Maybe there's an article linked here that has something more than them accepting a portrait, but I don't see that as "politicizing her death," I see it as acknowlegding what she died for, which was inherently political. If they've given speeches, or started a Rachel Martyrdom Fund, or marched on Jerusalem in her name and I've missed it, I apologize in advance.

If my sister died being active for some group like PETA I don't agree with, but they invited me to a ceremony honoring her, I probably would go. I certainly wouldn't think I was politicizing her death by sharing in a ceremony honoring her sacrifice for something she believed in.
 
129Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 217351118
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 19:18
Bili

It wasn't so much a matter of them politicizing her death. It was that they traveled to the other side of the world so that a terrorist/murderer could pay them his twisted homage to their daughter in person.

What if 'The Distinguished Abortion Clinic Bombers of America' wanted to honor your sister at a media event?
 
130biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 19:27
He's the elected leader of the Palestinian people. He's as much a terrorist/murder as Sharon is, in my eyes.

If my sister was killed trying to save the life of Randle Terry, yeah, as much as I dislike the the deluded fellow, I might accept his thanks on behalf of my sister.
 
131Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 217351118
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 19:36
As singular entities in that conflict, Sharon doesn't have as much blood on him as Arafat. And I'm sure I wouldn't travel to Israel to meet Sharon, either. Regardless, if you're saying you would have traveled to publicly accept a plaque from Terry at a media event, call me surprised.
 
132Tree
      Donor
      ID: 548522917
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 19:59
simply disgusting bili.

Arafat and his murderers target civilians. this past weekend they went after an infant inside her own house when a houseguest answered the door.
 
134Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 20:04
Those pictures I just saw of Hamas members kicking an effigy of a school bus to pieces were 'charming'.
 
135biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 20:16
There is plenty of blood to go around in the middle east conflict. Accusations of Sharon's massacres at Sabra and Shatila hold as much weight with my as accusations that Arafat orders terrorist acts. It is a bloody and shameful civil war for both the occupied and the occupiers. The only difference is that Sharon has the power of American bought and paid-for military might, and hamas is limited to direct terrorist acts if it wants to bring the fight to Israel in any successful manner. I don't condone either side, but neither do I distinguish one baby killer from the other. Just because one can do it with laser guided misiles and one has to do it by sacrificing their own people, the baby is still dead.
 
136Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 21:25
And the fact that one side tries to avoid kids and the other targets them doesn't phase your moral equivalency theory in the slightest Bili?
 
137biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 21:56
Certainly. Though I haven't seen Israel making too much effort to not kill kids of late, and I have seen as much evidence that Sharon was directly responsible for targeting kids in Lebanese refuge camps as evidence that Arafat controls Hamas.
 
138Tree
      Donor
      ID: 548522917
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 22:47
bili - fine. i'll take you at your belief that you've seen no evidence that Arafat controls Hamas.

if that's the case, then he needs to be removed from power, because he can't stop his own people from killing israeli children.

it can't be both ways - either he controls hamas, or he doesn't.

in one case, he is clearly a terrorist, and should be removed from power. in the other case, he can't stop the terrorists that have come from his backyard for the 30+ years he's been in power, so he should be removed from that position.
 
139Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 09:41
Tree, if you are contending that Arafat has the ability to stop Hamas from committing any more acts of terrorism, then you are ignorantly selling short the enormity of the problem that Israel faces.

However, there is plenty enough evidence to show that he does weild enough power to sway a large contingent of his people against acts of terrorism, and that he chooses instead to support the suicide bombers and those who recruit and train them.
 
140Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 10:13
MITH - i don't believe that Arafat could stop Hamas. however, as you stated, he doesn't do much to dissuade terrorism and those who support it.
 
141Khahan
      ID: 3127107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 11:41
Weren't the initial reports that she actually climbed up onto the blade of the bulldozer?
Now neither side is acknowledging that and they are disputing whether she was on or behind a mound of dirt?
 
142Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 12:02
Khahan
Now neither side is acknowledging that and they are disputing whether she was on or behind a mound of dirt?

I haven't seen this. Do you have a link to share? This really doesn't make sense to me as the standoff took place over several hours. It stands to reason that she was there before any dirt was plowed and any such 'mound' existed. My understanding was that she climbed onto or in the shovel-bucket to verbally confront the operator and slipped. But regardless, what are these reports of a new dispute? Are you now backing off from your claim that the photos are a hoax?
 
143sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 12:12
I cant help but wonder, if Rachel had died during a protest in support of the Nazi's in 1947; How much 'pity' would she be receiving?
 
144Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 12:20
if Rachel had died during a protest in support of the Nazi's in 1947; How much 'pity' would she be receiving?

Unfair question. Rachel did not die in a protest that supported of Nazis - or suicide bombers necesesarily. The it was a standoff attempt to prevent the bulldozing of people's homes.

Sarge, you don't know any more about who lived in that home than I do.
 
145sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 12:23
Nazi's end goal, the extermination of the Jewish faith from the planet.

Hamas goal: the extermination of the Jewish faith, from the planet.

The protest for all practical purposes, wasnt all that far removed from supporting the Nazis. Sorry MITH, but I find the comparative to be totally valid.
 
146Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 12:27
Sarge, show me that there were Hamas members living in that house.
 
147Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 12:30
And even if the house or houses were occupied by Hamas members, I need only point to Seattle Zen post 16:

Bulldozing homes will never be a military action. It is a tool of genocide or "ethnic cleansing" (an overused term, I admit, but unfortunately it is most appropriate here). If a man is guilty of plotting against the government or of conspiring to bomb civilians in Israel, arrest him, try him, and if guilty, punish him. Do not raze his home and leave his family on the street.
 
148Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 12:33
Sarge it's completely different. If in Nazi Germany there were Jews (or anyone) rising up and demolishing private homes of German citizens, I would pity the dying effort of someone who tried to prevent the destruction of innocent peoples' homes. It would have nothing to do with supporting Nazism, just supporting what is right. You look like you've been brainwashed by the rightists who deliberately fail to see the grey area in any issue.
 
149sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:16
lol katie will get a HUGE kick out of your terming me as 'brainwashed by the right'...
 
150Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:20
if bulldozing those homes is not a military action, then the initial actions the bulldozing reaction - that of murder via the suicide bomber, is also not a military action.

and if the suicide bomber's action is not a military action, but rather a criminal action, then the bomber's family is guilty of aiding and abetting and not coming forth with the information they knew.

and they should be punished for their criminal actions as well.
 
151Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:25
what follows is a LONG sermon made by Rabbi Bruce Dollin last year, to his congregation in Colorado, and it's pretty much right on the money, save for the relatively tasteless joke he opens the sermon with - but, that's a rabbi thing - they all open with a joke.

if you're not going to read the whole thing, i wouldn't waste your time. it is long, for sure, but it winds in and out many of the complexities of the issue that is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict before striking with absolute accuracy in its finale.

All right, I have to start off my Holiday sermons with a joke.

Three world leaders, Ariel Sharon, Vladimir Putin and George W. Bush all go to heaven.
God comes to them angry and says to them that they have done such a crummy job with
the world that God will destroy the whole world in one week’s time. He then sends the
leaders back down to Earth to tell their people. President Bush goes on television and he
says: my fellow Americans, I have good news and bad news. The good news is that there
is a God. The bad news is that God is angry with us and he will soon destroy the world.
Putin goes on television and says in Russian: Comrades, I have bad news and worse
news. The bad news is that there is a God. The worse news is that God will soon destroy
the whole world. Sharon goes on television and in Hebrew says: Chaverim, I have good
news and better news. The good new is there is a God and the better news is that there
will never be a Palestinian State!

Unfortunately, even as bad as that joke is, I don’t have a lot of humor left in me this year.
For it hasn’t been a good year, certainly not in our Holy Land, the Land and State of
Israel.

I begin my sermon with a joke and with apologies for what I am about to read to you. It
is a gruesome story but only too real. It breaks my heart to think that this could happen
on a street in Israel where I walked a hundred times while living there in 1982 and where
I brought my congregants in 1990 to rejoice in a mission to Israel.

This is a true story reported by an Israeli, whose name is Marty Friedlander.

“On Tuesday, I was working at the Ha’aretz office downtown. I left
around noon on foot, headed to Mea Shearim where I met my father in law
to buy a pair of Tefillin for him. My wife Rena dropped us off near the
Russian compound on Havatzelet Street. It was a little after 1:00 pm. I
straightaway decided to go for a falafel at Moti’s on Hanevviim, 100
meters away. I head there and within 15 seconds after leaving the family,
I heard the bomb go off. Big boom, but not overpowering. I turned and
saw the smoke coming out of the falafel place. No other sounds at all.
First thing I did was call Rena to say that I was ok, that it was a bomb, and
that I was going back there. I then trotted over. There were two cops in
front, fanning out to the sides to stop the traffic. There was an arm lying
by the door. No one was there, no one else was going in. I sort of loitered
around in front for about ten seconds, partly hoping that a medical team
would arrive and relieve me of my burden, but there was no one else. I am
a medic, and have trained all my life for this kind of episode. Finally, I
realized it had to be me. In the meantime, someone came out from the
back room of the falafel place and said that there was only one “Petzua,”
casualty. I went in and saw him lying on the floor, his head toward the
door in front of the counter where the customers usually stand. He had no
legs. I leaned down and looked at him for a second or two. His eyes were
wide open, focused on me. At first I wasn’t sure if it was a man or a
woman; he was wearing a dark, flowery kind of shirt. But I put my hand
on his chest to help check for his breathing. That took care of A and B
(airway and breathing). Then comes C, circulation. I ran outside and
called out for a belt. A cop pulled his belt off and gave it to me - by now
there were more people outside. I went back in and took a better look and
realized that there was absolutely nothing to which I could apply an
arterial tourniquet. He had no legs left. …. There was nothing I could do.
I said to him, “Tishom Amok”, “breathe deep.” His eyes were still
focused on me. I noticed he had this little button-sized beard under his
chin. I decided to help out with his breathing and give him mouth to
mouth. I saw someone standing in the doorway watching the whole thing.
He was nodding his head from side to side. He looked for some reason,
very authoritative to me. Maybe it was the fact that he wasn’t jumping up
and down, not panicked at all. Like he’d seen these sorts of things before.
I knew my patzua was not going to make it. I got up and walked outside. I
assume that he died a few seconds later.

There was only one casualty that I had seen in the whole shop. An
Ethiopian guy of about 20 years old ran up and pleaded with a cop to let
him go in. He said his brother worked with Moti. I asked him what his
brother looked like. He said that he looks like an Ethiopian. I assured him
that his brother was okay, that there was only one patzua and that he was
definitely not Ethiopian. It was around now that I finally realized what
was going on.

My patzua was the terrorist.

My colleagues and I, probably like most of you, are at our wits end. Real
human beings are being slaughtered for nothing. Parents of Palestinian
children, supposedly responsible adults to whom God entrusted the most
precious gift given to human kind, children, are teaching their toddlers and
grade schoolers and teenagers to hate. And they are teaching them to strap
bombs to their bodies and walk into restaurants, and disco techs and hotel
lobbies, and university cafeterias and pizza parlors and falafel stands and
blow themselves up. And for what? Children. They are just children who
would do anything for their parents and their teachers and their religious
leaders out of love and loyalty and religious devotion. I don’t blame these
children. They came into this world pure souls, and they doing what they
have been taught and told to do. But the adults -- the parents! I cannot
imagine such cowardice. I cannot imagine such evil. To poison the minds
of the young with propaganda, and lies and hatred. My friends, I propose
to you a new verse for the Al Chet prayers: For the sin, O Lord, that we
have committed before you by tolerating in our world, the poisoning of the
minds of children.”

Thank God we live in America where there is freedom of speech and the ability to
confront and challenge and disabuse ourselves of the lies and the spin and the propaganda
that reaches our children at institutions in which they learn. But nevertheless, the same
lies do reach many of these institutions, albeit in a more sanitized and subtle form.

As you all know, next week, Hanan Ashrawi will keynote Colorado College’s
symposium entitled “September 11, One Year Later.” Some political science professor at
the college thought they’d make quite a statement by giving a PLO apologist center stage,
the marquis billing for their symposium. I imagine this person got a real chuckle out of
this one: bring Ashrawi - make it clear that we in the political science department down
here in Colorado Springs know the truth that if America would stop supporting Israel
(political speak for “the Jews”) then there would be no international terrorism, there
would not have been a September 11th.

Saudi Muslim extremists hijack airliners and murder over 3000 Americans. Palestinians
dance in the streets in celebration of American dead, and that celebration was caught on
video by the press until Palestinian police threaten the reporters with bodily harm. And
Hanan Ashrawi, with all this death and destruction and evil condemns the suicide
bombers amongst her people because it is not politically expedient. Morally evil? No.
Barbaric and sinful? No. A heinous crime committed by parents against the fruit of their
own womb? No. She condemns it because it doesn’t help the cause. Is Hanan Ashrawi
complicit with suicide bombers and airliner hijackers? You bet she is! She will say,
“Let’s examine the motivation of the terrorist. Let’s take a look at the root of the
problem, why these murderers murder as they do. No doubt,” Ashrawi will say, “it is
because of Israel.”

As long as there are people like her, who will ask those questions on national television,
the terrorists win. And they, therefore, will murder again. The political science
department at Colorado College thought they were playing a game here. Who can be
more clever? Whose political agenda will carry the day on campus? But this game is not
cute or clever or fun. In this game, people die.

When I was in college from 1976 to 1980, I remember Iranian Muslim students agitating
against the brutality of the shah’s regime. What did I know then, I was 18 years old,
from what they said, the brutality sounded pretty bad. They had some horrendous
pictures on display like those of political prisoners being hanged. The students were
agitating to gain American support for the revolution that was soon to come in Iran. The
revolution came and they got rid of the shah and in came Khomeini. After the revolution,
while hundreds of Americans were being held hostage in the American embassy in
Tehran, I wanted to have a word with those same Muslim students. I wanted a word with
those students when rivers of blood flowed for ten years between two insane regimes:
Khomeini and Saddam Hussein. But lo and behold those Iranian students were no longer
around.

I also remember Arab students on campus agitating against Israel. I knew so little. I was
no match for them. They were trained as activists. They had dates and so called facts
(propaganda) but I didn’t have any of that and I was no match for them. But I was a
liberal back then, and doggone it, I thought: shouldn’t Israel try a little harder to get along
with its Arab neighbors?

That was some 26 years ago. I have changed and so has the situation on campus. I got a
little wiser and the situation on campus has gotten much worse.

Just this past year alone professors in separate incidences at Columbia University,
University of South Florida, SUNY Binghamton, Kent State, University of Oregon, and
UC Berkeley, gave courses or lectures calling Israel racist, fascist, baby killers, calling
Prime Minister Sharon “Hitler” and accusing Israel of genocide against Palestinians. At
Kent State a teacher wrote and published a poem about the bravery of a Palestinian
suicide bomber and called on Allah to elevate her to a place in paradise. At San
Francisco State, pro-Palestinian protestors surrounded and threatened those in a pro-Israel
rally. At CU Boulder, pro-Palestinians desecrated an Israeli flag and chalked anti-
Semitic graffiti on the sidewalk. This all happened, my friends, in the last 6 months.
President Dick Celeste, in defending the Ashrawi invitation said that the college campus
must remain the sanctuary of free speech and intellectual inquiry, a place of civilized
discourse. My belief is that the college campus hasn’t been like that for a long, long
time.

There is extremism and intimidation on campus. And this is coming from the liberal
camp of which I have been a member, at least I thought so, every day of my life. Perhaps
it is time for me to join the club, growing ever larger since September 11th last year. We
might call it the “Lapsed Liberal Club.” You are now looking at a lapsed liberal and after
all those years of fruitless arguments with my father, a die-hard republican. Could he
have been right all these years? I can’t ever admit that (smile).

But Dennis Prager brings this point home. Lapsed liberals like me have been abandoned
by the politically liberal world, which has turned on Israel. Europe, Western news media,
liberal churches, and especially the college campus: To my mind, they are all hypocrites
for doing so. Does not liberalism stand for freedom and democracy? I always thought
so, yet Israel is the only free country in the Middle East, the only democracy amongst a
sea of tyrannical governments in Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and the Palestinian
Authority. Yet liberals are siding with Arab/Muslim tyrannies against Israeli democracy.
Liberals stand for women’s rights - which Israel has in its society - women’s movements,
women in the military and in all levels of government and business. And the
Arab/Muslim world for the most part rejects women’s rights. Do not liberals stand for
free election with voting rights for all citizens? Of the 27 countries in the Middle East,
there is only one country that allows all its citizens to vote. Do you know what that
country is? Israel. Liberals stand for gay rights and Israel has gay rights and
Arab/Muslim countries arrest gays, beat them up and imprison them.

Liberals stand for independent judiciaries and freedom of the press, which Israel has and
Arab/Muslim countries do not have. And yet, Israel is consistently portrayed in the
liberal world as the aggressor/the occupier/the oppressor while the Arab/Muslim world is
portrayed as the helpless victim. This is hypocrisy coming from the left. I don’t know
about you but it infuriates me.

Palestinian students are attending American universities - lots of them. They are
demonstrating, sometimes violently on campus just as the Iranian students demonstrated
on campus when I went to college. This is a free country, let them demonstrate.
But we are still sending our 18 years olds, our best minds, our future leaders, our precious
Jewish children into that intellectually biased cauldron we call college. Our children
have all the history, math and science they need to compete and succeed in college. But
they have very little knowledge of Jewish history and the history of the Jewish State and
the Jewish State’s right to exist in freedom and security. Our students are deluged on
campus, just ask them. They are being intimidated by Palestinian and Arab students and
their supporters on campus. Let me tell you something. Our children come from strong,
intelligent families that are proud of their Judaism and have the natural skills and abilities
to not only hold their own in this debate but to soundly defeat the fallacious arguments of
Israel’s opponents on college campuses. But we need to give them some facts. We have
to encourage them to study about Israel. Many of our college students are home with us
this Holiday. Talk to them about this. Make sure they come to my house at 5:00 p.m.
today where we will have lots of information to give them that they can bring back to
campus with them so they can engage in this debate1. Make sure that when they get back
to school they contact their Hillell directors and take a class on Israel and go to Israel.
Let’s help our college kids fight this thing on campus. We owe it to them and we owe it
to Israel.

I truly believe, and I know some of you will disagree with me here (which is ok), this is
why we live in this free country. The west is in a war with radical Islam. We are fighting
this war on the ground in Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, but we are fighting this war also in
downtown Manhattan and a dozen other places worldwide, with guns and bombs. We are
fighting this war in the United Nations Security Council, whose chair is Syrian and in the
United Nations Committee on Human Rights who chair (and here is a little humor not
intended) by Libya. We are fighting this war in the press. We are fighting this war with
the governments within the European Union. We are fighting this war with anti-Semites
worldwide. This is a complex multi-front war that is playing itself out in the mind as
well as on the ground. But it is a war none-the-less and we have to view it that way
before we go on any further.

And like in most of history’s wars between civilizations, the Jews have been attacked
first. Whether we like it or not, we are on the front line in this war as anti-Semitism is
on the rise in Europe and around the world, and as Israel fights Palestinian terror and
Muslim extremism within its own borders.

Now there are two ways to deal with this fact. The one way is to shry gevalt!, complain
in other words, “why are we always the sacrificial lamb? Why the Jews? Why are we on
point in a war that we didn’t cause and don’t deserve?” We can hope the world has pity
on us. We can hope that God forbid, another 6 million of our people will not be
murdered as they were murdered just 60 years ago in the last war between civilizations.
Or, as a second option, we can do what God put us on this Earth to do: Lead. Israel is not
eastern European Jewry, which had no power in the 30’s and 40’s, which did not know
then about what the world was capable of like we know now. Israel is a powerful country
protected by a cutting edge modern military. And Israel is rightly allied with America in
this new war against radical Islam. And Israel is on the front and Israel knows more
about the enemy than anyone else. Israel and world Jewry have a job to do and this is
how I see that job for the next many years. In the Torah we read, “reeh limadti” (Deut.
4:5-6), “See, I have taught you decrees and ordinances, to do so in the midst of the land
of Israel to which you come, to possess it. You must safeguard and perform them, for it
is your wisdom and your discernment in the eyes of the other peoples in the world, who
will hear all these decrees and who shall say, “surely a wise and discerning people is this
great nation of Israel.”

The Jewish people have responsibility when they go in and take sovereign control over
the land of Israel as we have done. It is not just to survive as a people. It is not just to
fight the battle against Palestinians including Arafat and his cadre of corrupt bureaucrats
and terrorists. It is my contention here that it will be Israel who will lead this war of
civilizations, who will lead in the battle against radical Islam and further yet, bringing the
modernity, democracy and freedom to this violence torn part of the world.

That is a large statement. Little Israel, backed by the Jewish people worldwide has a
mission, a God given mission, the same mission given to the Jewish people in the time of
Moses. We will keep God’s ordinances. Despite the violence, despite the hardships, it
will be Israel that will retain its sense of civility, will retain its notions of compassion, of
justice, righteousness and freedom. And for who knows how many years, the dictators
and tyrants of the Muslim third world will attack Israel as the symbol of Western
modernity.

But there will be a day when the battle will be over, and hundreds of millions of Muslims
and Arabs in the Middle East and around the world will come to look to Israel as a model
for moving into the prosperous, technologically sophisticated, intellectually honest and
peaceful nations of the modern West.

Israel is in the perfect position to do so. It is located amongst these very backward Arab
countries. It knows the mind of terrorists as well as the mind of the moderate Arab who
seeks to move forward. Israel itself has gone from an agrarian society to an industrial
one and on into the InfoTech world. A process that took western civilization 4000 years
of slow progress and Israel has done it in 50 years. Israel has the know-how, from
creating irrigation in the desert to creating a stock market. From the production of orange
orchards to the fabrication of the latest computer chip, Israel has the business connections
with every modern economy in the world.

And Israel has something else which is absolutely unique to Israel and Israel alone. It is a
Jewish country that holds the bible, Jewish tradition and law as sacred. It carries within
that Jewish cultural and religious identity the essential, foundational values of western
civilization. Protecting the widow, welcoming the stranger, helping the poor, these are
ingrained into the national psyche of Israel as it is ingrained in the soul of the Jewish
people worldwide. Principles of truth and justice and compassion and fairness are
absolute and unconditional in our faith and in our State. Seeking peace with her Arab
neighbors has been a clarion call for Israel since before it’s founding. You simply do not
hear calls for the destruction, or annihilation of the Palestinians, or the pushing of the
Arab nations into the sea as we repeatedly hear from Palestinian and Arab leaders
regarding the Jews for 100 years now.

So as hard as the Arab nations try to brutalize Israel and its citizens, they will fail. Israel
will protect herself against her enemies and at the same time, retain her sense of moral
civility and justice. That is how Israel, backed by the Jewish community worldwide, will
lead.

I don’t know when it will happen. I don’t know when peace will come - perhaps not in
our lifetimes. But one day, a strong Israel will bring light to the darkness that now
engulfs the countries of the Middle East. Radical Islam will do everything it can to
spread that darkness to the four corners of the Earth. They will strap bombs to their
children, they will hijack more airplanes, they may even threaten us with nuclear
weapons, but they will ultimately fail because darkness is weaker than light. A pinpoint
of light can pierce the greatest darkness and the world will eventually come to realize that
the only light in the Middle East today is Israel. We will protect her. We will stand by
her and insure that goodness and justice will ultimately come to that blighted region.

My friends, we must rally next week at Colorado College. I ask you all to make the
sacrifice - take off work or school. Join us on the buses. Make it clear to our community,
our nation and the world that terrorism/murder/evil will not be discussed and considered
and debated… It will be defeated.

We will mourn the victims of 9-11 this week just as we will mourn for that child terrorist
who blew himself up at Moti’s falafel restaurant. We will pray with our feet next week.
We will say that we will fight terrorists and all political and religious views and countries
and organizations that support and enable terrorism. It’s time we come together and
make a stand.

 
152Khahan
      ID: 3127107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:26
MITH, with regard to your post 142 where you ask for a link. Go back to post 118 from MBJ and read the story he links there.
Excerpts from that article:
ISM's statement: "When the bulldozer refused to stop or turn aside, (Rachel) climbed up onto the mound of dirt and rubble being gathered in front of it ... to look directly at the driver, who kept on advancing," the group said in a statement.

and the Isreali army's statement:
"Rachel Corrie was injured as a result of earth and building material falling on her when she tried to climb on a pile of earth while work was being carried out by an armored Israel Defense Forces bulldozer," the statement said. "The crew of the armored bulldozer did not see Miss Corrie, who was standing behind a pile of earth, nor could they have seen or heard her."


Notice, neither party even begins to suggest that Rachel attempted to climb onto any part of the bulldozer.
 
153Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:40
Tree
If you committed a terrorist act against the United States government, I would not support the government seizing your neighbors' and families' homes so that they could also pay for what you did.

It's an act that is only slightly less grotesque than setting off a bomb in the first place. The bulldozing doesn't work as a deterrant. If anything, it's an incentive for more violence ...and a way to make new luxury homes for Israelis.


Khahan
Look at the photo in post 88. The bucket is filled with a mound dirt. If she were to climb up on that pile or dirt, she would in fact have climbed up onto the mound of dirt and rubble being gathered in front of it. From there, all she would have to do is lean foward and she would be in contact with the top of the blade. In fact, given the uneven footing of the mound of dirt and rubble, it stands to reason that most people would do just that, put their hands on te top of the blade for balance. I don't see how her being there on top of that mound couldn't be described as her being on or in the bucket. Both are basicly true. You appear to be inventing a discrepency.
 
154Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:51
Tree I see nothing in post 151 that lends credibility to destroying the homes of people who have committed no crime.

I define Hamas as Israel prefers; terrorists and enemy combatants. The fact the Palestinian combatants employ terrorism does not give Israel the right to resort to fascist means of dealing with them.
 
155Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:01
MITH - the sermon i posted, and the destruction of the homes of families of terrorist are seperate issues. i should have clarified.

the sermon has more to do with an environment that breeds children for the sole purpose of using them as human bombs.

as for the issue of destruction of homes - if i were plotting, or committing terrorist acts against the USA, or any other country for that matter, and my family was aware and did nothing to stop me, they are as guilty as i am.

it's no different for the families of Hamas members. They know what Hamas is up to, they know what they do, and they know what they stand for. yet when their son joins, they do nothing to dissuade him, only praise him as a martyr when he kills babies.
 
157Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:11
Well is Israel at war or not Tree? You use the war rhetoric when it suits you and make like Israel is simply staging police actions by bulldozing homes when it doesn't suit you. If it is a war, then you cannot hold responsible the families and neighbors of Hamas members. If it isn't a war, then tell me, what kind of legal representation do those families get before their homes are bulldozed? Do they get a day in court? And exactly how does bulldozing the home where the terrorist's mother and children and brothers and sisters live deter terrorism? Please. You fully know that all it serves to do is incite even more anger.
 
158Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:16
the situation is a lot more complex than declaring it as either police action or military action.

when israel gave up it's police authority to the PA several years ago, it lost the right to go in there as law enforcement per se.

as the PA choses to do nothing to stop the terrorism, and, in fact, encourages it. israel must use military action to equate police action.
 
159Khahan
      ID: 3127107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:23
MITH, I'm not 'inventing' discrepencies. For 1, the authenticity of the photo in 88 is in question. Re-read some of that and you'll see.
However, that aside, notice a distinct difference between saying, "She was on top of a mound of dirt" and
"She climbed onto the front blade of the bulldozer"
One makes her role very pacified in the action. The other puts her directly in harms way and makes her at least share in some culpability.
From the military side if she climbed up onto the blade of the bulldozer, she would have been seen and there is culpability on their side.
As for discrepencies, I have no proof but my own memory.
The story to the link in the first post has been changed (again going by my own memory). When this whole incident first started, it was reported in that link that she was on the bulldozer and was thrown off and crushed. Now that link is stating she had earth and dirt dumped on her and she was then (excuse the term) bulldozed over and crushed.
I hope somebody else remembers this the way I do and says something, but I am 100% positive it has been changed.
Now, also, read the article linked in post 13: According to the ISM activist, Corrie was wearing a bright jacket and climbed onto the bulldozer shovel-plow and began shouting at the driver
That has a very different conotation than, "She climbed ont a mound of dirt."
...
I have no proof that the story linked in 1 is changed because there is no cut/paste of it. But I'd bet my kids college funds that it has been (and I'd be sending her to Harvard when I won).
 
160Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:26
as the PA choses to do nothing to stop the terrorism, and, in fact, encourages it. israel must use military action to equate police action.

Even if their actions have shown to also encourage terrorism? Sorry Tree, but I just don't believe that bulldozing people's homes has anything to do with policing terrorsim. The "perpatrators" who's homes are being bulldozed are not taken into custody. They are not imprisoned for any role in terrorism, in fact as far as I can tell they don't even investigate to see if they've really done anything wrong. In many cases, I'm sure they haven't. It's a blood for blood war, and while one side has shown to be far less willing to seek a true end to the violence, we see regular atrocities from both sides and I'm not interested in condoning any of it.
 
161Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:30
However, that aside, notice a distinct difference between saying, "She was on top of a mound of dirt" and
"She climbed onto the front blade of the bulldozer"


OK, I have no other way to express this. If you can't understand that the mound of dirt was created by - and therefore pressed up against and inside of - the bulldozer shovel.

As the Bulldozer moved foward, the mound clearly grew in size from how we see it in post 88. But even if it didn't, if she were standing on a mound the size of what we see in that photo, the driver would have seen her.
 
162Khahan
      ID: 3127107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:35
Mith, thats fine, so she climbed onto a mound of dirt that was on the bulldozer.
But stating, "She climbed onto a mound of dirt" (or was behind a mound of dirt) STILL has a very different connotation than stating simply, "She climbed onto the front of a bulldozer."
If she climbed on the bulldozer, she did something stupid and gets what she deserves. If she climbed on a mound of dirt (notice, nobody claiming she climbed on the mound of dirt is stating that that mound was actually in contact with the bulldozer blade...its jsut a sedentary mound of dirt) then its the murderous Isreali soldier's fault because he did it on purpose. How can you not see somebody who climbs on top of a mound of dirt?
 
163biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 49132614
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:40
According to Israeli authorities, they weren't bulldozing terrorist homes.

The army said it destroyed the homes in the Rafah refugee camp to create a "buffer zone" to prevent smuggling from Egypt.

Not that I would condone bulldozing terrorist homes, but there is even less justification for this. They are treating Palestinians like animals and you are surprised that Gaza is turning into a breeding ground for terrorists.
 
164Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:40
notice, nobody claiming she climbed on the mound of dirt is stating that that mound was actually in contact with the bulldozer blade..

Uh, it's documented in a photo right on this very page. And I have now completely lost whatever point you were trying to make. Do I have to resort to pre-school English?

See Rachel.

See bulldozer.

See pile of dirt.

See that pile of dirt is in bulldozer.

See that in order to get to the top of the bucket, she would have had to climb up the pile of dirt in order to get to the top of the bucket.

See that the driver can see her whether she is on the dirt OR standing on top of the bucket.
 
165Khahan
      ID: 3127107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:54
Ok mith, if you want to resort to that kind of thing, lets make something perfectly clear:
I'm discussing how both sides are TALKING about what happened. They do not necessarily have a website with photos to match their dialogue.
Again, those photos you refer to are in doubt. In fact, other posts in this very thread offer clear evidence that they are NOT taken at the time of the incident (but rather well before).
Next, 1 side is SAYING "She climbed onto a mound of dirt," when before that same side was SAYING "she climbed onto the bulldozer."
Notice a difference between what they are saying then and what they are saying now?
Don't try to qualify either statements by referring to a photo that may or may not be related.
Take each statement as they are presented by the ISM. Take each statement as they are presented by the Isreali army.
See propoganda article 1
See propoganda article 2
See how both sides have changed what they are saying in article 3.
See how none of articles or statements direct your attention to a photo showing a mound of dirt being pushed by a bulldozer.
See how we are going back and forth and getting nowhere.


 
166Mattinglyinthehall
      Sustainer
      ID: 1629107
      Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 15:10
Khahan

I apologize for losing my patience.

Understand that you are the only persone here or anywhere that I know of that caims that the validity of the photos is in doubt. You citing that the photos were taken at different times is not proof of anything, as the standoff took place over a number of hours. I went into detail on this well over 6 months ago in post 88. You failed to refute me then and today you are simply rehashing old arguments that were foiled back at that time. Further, I have to imagine that if they were really in doubt by anyone other than you, that the Israeli response would say as much. It doesn't, so you'll havce to live with me and probably everyone else here dismissing that claim that the photos are questionable.

Next, you are claiming that the article linked in post 1 has since changed it's position on what happened that day. Once again, you are demending that the forum accept your memory of one line from 6 months ago. This to support your claim of discrepency when it is entirely likely that Rachel simultaneously stood both on the bucket or inside the bucket and also on the dirt at the very same time.

Tell me, if you place a book on a stool and get up on top of it, is someone who says you are on the stool lying? Is it possible that someone might describe it both ways in seperate recounts?
 
167Seattle Zen
      ID: 17231110
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 10:12


Peace activist killed in Gaza remembered.

"Rachel Corrie was a martyr," Neilson said of The Evergreen State College student. "She gave up her life to bring about justice in this incredibly screwed-up world, and it's going to take a lot more people of similar dedication to turn things around. I'm dedicating my every waking moment to making sure George Bush gets booted out of office. Peacefully, of course, but out."
 
168Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 10:16
while i'm all for doing what we can to get GW out of office, Rachel Corrie has nothing to do with our upcoming presidential election.

linking her actions, and by relation, the actions of the palestinian terrorists she was attempting to protect, can only do more harm than good for those of us who want to see GW Bush removed from office.
 
169Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 10:45
"peace activist" Is that intended as irony?
 
170Seattle Zen
      ID: 17231110
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 10:48
That's bullºhit and you know it, Tree. Not every Palestinian is a terrorist. She was protecting a home, not a military installation. You have no credibilty on any Isreali issue if you refuse to examine Isreal's actions objectivily. Furthermore, if you want to remove GW come November, you had better get used to standing next to people who do not support Isreal's treatment of the Palestianians.
 
171Seattle Zen
      ID: 17231110
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 10:49
169

No, it was a headline.
 
172CJ@Work
      ID: 35104577
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 10:56
1 Tree, also @ work
WOW I agree with you 100%! Can you beleive it! Really she placed herself in harms way. Does not mean she should die, but there are lines that you can cross when trying to make a political statement.
 
173Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 11:01
An awful tragedy, for which (apparently) Israel agrees.

It's too bad that the worst-case scenerio for that particular human shield came to be.

pd
 
174CJ@Work
      ID: 35104577
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 11:05
167 Seattle Zen
So now it is GW's fault she got killed! WOW that is a shocker!
 
175Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 11:16
You have no credibilty on any Isreali issue if you refuse to examine Isreal's actions objectivily. Furthermore, if you want to remove GW come November, you had better get used to standing next to people who do not support Isreal's treatment of the Palestianians.

i am aware i'll be standing next to them. i have been in contact with United for Peace and Justice because some of their reasons for saturday's big peace march fly in the face of their own position on the palestinian-israel situation. Where they say that one of the reasons for the march is to end occupation in Palestine, elsewhere on their site they claim to lay blame with both sides.

what happened to rachel corrie was a tragedy, but she is no martyr. she took deliberate actions to put herself in a very dangerous situation. i feel bad for her family, but to make a martry out of her is overkill.

i have no problem acknowledging that Israel's often heavy-handed response to Palestinian suicide bombers is of some fault to the entire problem, but i will maintain that if the Palestinians could actually go 6 months without strapping bombs to themselves, we might get some where in the peace process.

of course, i also agree, that not every Palestinian is a terrorist, but it is getting harder and harder to distinguish from who is, and who isn't. the profile used to be a lot more simple - men in their 20s and 30s with no families.

but recently we've had women bombers with infant children at home, and last week's bastards were two 17-year-old boys.

two questions about "military installations", since you brought it up - i challenge you to answer them objectively.

1. when's the last time a palestinian terrorist went after a "military installation" instead of mothers and teenagers?
2. is a home with a stock pile of weapons to be used by terrorists a home, or a military installation?
 
176Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 11:38
Tree 175

#2 is a fair question but not #1, unless you are claiming that the fact that Palestinian terrorists target only civilians makes it OK for Israel to target them, too.
 
177Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 11:42
to a certain extent, MITH, you're right about #1.

but it's basically to prove a point, perhaps a rhetorical question - the Palestinians have never targeted military installations, only civilians.
 
178Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 11:43
I don't think anyone here is trying to defend the actions of Palestinian terrorists.
 
179Seattle Zen
      ID: 17231110
      Wed, Mar 17, 2004, 21:21
I really respect post 175 and can't argue.
 
180Akbar Kufr
      ID: 34521
      Thu, Mar 25, 2004, 21:17
They are not terrorists, they are noble shahids!!
 
181Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, Mar 16, 2005, 02:03
Family of protester killed by bulldozer suing Caterpillar
 
182Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Wed, Mar 16, 2005, 03:42
Catepillar should countersue over faulty parenting.
 
183Tree
      ID: 212401018
      Wed, Mar 16, 2005, 07:14
i saw this. it's just beyond absurd, and it's a shame her parents are pretty much tarnishing any good people might have thought she was doing by showing their true motivation - the almighty dollar.

i feel bad she died. i never said otherwise. but i think she intentionally put herself in harm's way, and when you play chicken, sometimes you get hurt.

for the same reason i'd never try and dash across Queens Blvd against the light, i wouldn't stare down a bulldozer in a war zone. it's just not bright, and it's downright suicidal.
 
184Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Wed, Mar 16, 2005, 07:42
I wouldn't go so far as to say they are simply money grubbers. They are probably as psycho politically as their daughter and are just trying to wring every last bit of political capitol that can be derived from her death, ie the more publicity, the more accomplished, the easier for them to bear.

I seriously have no sympathy for them if she died living out her parents politics.

 
185soxzeitgeist
      ID: 5246912
      Thu, Mar 17, 2005, 13:29
Calling Rachel Corrie a "peace activist" is like calling David Duke a "human rights activist".
 
186Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 17:15
Arabs in Hebron want rid of International Solidarity Movement

The anarchists, many of whom are members of the International Solidarity Movement, flock to flashpoints throughout Judea and Samaria, ostensibly to help PA Arabs contend with IDF closures and protect them from harassment. In actuality, many of the volunteers seek confrontations with IDF soldiers and local Jewish residents, taking advantage of their Western passports to cause havoc--knowing that, at worst, they will be deported, not jailed.

The local Arabs in the Hevron region whom the activists claim to be helping are now complaining that the American and European students behave in a provocative and offensive manner in Hevron's public areas. The Arabs say the activists disrespect the moral norms and standards of the local population.


Too bad for poor, sincere, misguided Rachel Corrie, they weren't shown the door earlier.
 
187sarge33rd
      ID: 5110132116
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 17:36
This still gets my goat. If I go play "tag" on the freeway, I should fully expect that I'll get plowed by some vehicle. By the same token, if I try and stand in front of a bulldozer, I should expect that in the confrontation that follows....my flesh, blood and muscle vs its diesel engine, steel and hydraulics...that I'm going to come out on the short end, of a VERY short stick. Or did these people simply not pay ANY attention at all to the world around them, as they were growing older and theoretically at any rate, wiser?
 
188Tree
      ID: 2310262317
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 18:32
MBJ - that's quite a different sentiment then you expressed early in this thread, no?

her death was tragic. but it was preventable, on her part. she took actions that cost her her life.
 
189Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 19:10
MBJ - that's quite a different sentiment then you expressed early in this thread, no?

Without rereading the thread - I don't think so. I regret her death, I feel sorry for her family as I do the families of other misguided idiots. I wish Rachel Corrie was still alive. If her gang had been kicked out of Palestine - maybe she would be. I think you misread me.
 
190bibA
      Sustainer
      ID: 261028117
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 19:34
Funny how perspective helps determine how one looks at these things.

I have to wonder if the same sentiments were being expressed about that guy who stood in front of the tanks in Tiananmen Square back in 1989.
 
191Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 20:51
I think we'd have similar sentiments if the guy had tried to jump onto the moving treads of one of the tanks.

The power of that guy was that he didn't move.

[Also, he wasn't protecting a house in which militants were using as a base of operations]
 
192sarge33rd
      ID: 670916
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 21:17
then too, a tank driver who is "buttoned up", sits below and in front of the turrent. Standing in front of a tank, you are visible to the driver. The same is not true of standing in front of a bulldozer.
 
193sarge33rd
      ID: 670916
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 21:17
shoud say....driver who is not buttoned up...
 
194Seattle Zen
      ID: 3415339
      Fri, Mar 10, 2006, 10:48
Daughter Courage, a play about Rachael, opens in Seattle
 
195Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Fri, Mar 10, 2006, 11:08
kinda misleading news story there, as i saw Daughter Courage from Bread and Puppet at the theater for the new city here in NYC, back in like 2004. heck, maybe even 2003.
 
196Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Fri, Mar 10, 2006, 11:23
Comedy, tragedy, or farce?
 
197Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Fri, Mar 10, 2006, 11:57
Puppet show...
 
198Seattle Zen
      ID: 3415339
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 11:05
Rachel's story needs to be told, now

"Maybe the young student from The Evergreen State College was a tad naive, a puppet of left-leaning loonies with the International Solidarity Movement. Some people think this. Maybe she was prescient beyond her 23 years, recognizing that her white skin and U.S. passport could bring vital attention to ignored people in subhuman and desperate conditions. Some think that.

Whichever the case, too many people are reflexively afraid of Rachel's message, of what her short life and brutal death means.

The issue has gotten to the point that what passes for dialogue is either polemical shouting -- or, worse, a campaign to silence the legacy of the young woman who addressed human suffering with fiery grace. Rachel cared about ordinary people outside of her comfort zone -- enough to get off the couch and do something."
 
199Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 11:57
my. ass.

The story overflows with potential villains, starting with the Israeli government, which illegally uses bulldozers as weapons of terror; Palestinians who resort to suicide bombs as an insane tool of revenge; and, even, U.S.-based Caterpillar, which counts the money as its bulldozers are used to spill blood.

you can start with the Palestinian terrorists. you can move on to the organization - since exposed as an auxillary division of a terrorist group - that allowed Corrie to use herself as a human shield.

that article amounts to a big load of horsesh!t, throwing boatloads of blame on israelis, the U.S., Caterpiller (WTF?!!?), and others, while casually mentioning - secondary - the terrorists who created this whole mess in the first place by attacking israeli citizens.

Rachel Corrie wasn't courageous. she was, sadly, misguided, led astray, and ultimately used by an organization who knew she was much more valuable in death, than in life.
 
200Tree
      ID: 322421716
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 17:44
This is what Rachel Corrie was fighting for...

Hamas's leader-in-exile, Khaled Meshaal, said running the Palestinian Authority was not its ultimate goal.

"We and the Zionists have a date with destiny. If they want a fight, we are ready for it. If they want a war, we are the sons of war. If they want a struggle, we are for it to the end," Meshaal declared in Damascus.
 
201Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 17:57
I can't believe that the guy that wrote Zen's linked column is given space to write in a big city newspaper. He's loopy.

When I spoke with Craig and Cindy Corrie a few weeks ago, they'd just come back home to the Seattle area after a rattling episode. In the Middle East, Palestinian activists had tried to kidnap them. The activists had a change of heart when they were told the couple's last name. If that is not a powerful testament to Rachel's legacy, I don't know what is.

That paragraph and the logic behind it rank very high on the unintentional comedy meter. We're supposed to be impressed by this anectdote? The people Rachel foolishly dies trying to protect kidnap her parents and then release them after they find out that their daughter was a co-conspirator. Nice story. I had to wipe a tear from my eye.

The only "statement" about Rachel's legacy that makes is that she was in with the kidnappers.
 
202bibA
      Sustainer
      ID: 261028117
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 17:59
Tree - I was unable to find the refrences to Rachel Corrie in that link. Were you possibly getting her mixed up with the 14 year old girl killed by gunfire? Your article seemed to center on Hamas' hatred for Israel, and some current fighting. Where was the reference to Rachel Corrie's protests against civilian houses being destroyed because the owner's were related to terrorists? That was my understanding of what her concerns were in Gaza, which does not necessarily equate to a support of Hamas or terrorism.
 
203Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 18:02
biBa - most of the links in this old thread are dead now but the organization that Rachel was over there with wa very pro-active in supporting armed terrorists in Palestine.
 
204biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 18:08
Isn't it possible she was both deluded and couragous?
 
205Tree
      ID: 322421716
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 18:13
Biba - what MBJ said.

bili - certainly.
 
206biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 18:17
Rachel Corrie wasn't courageous.

This dude Tree doesn't seem to think it's possible.

Then again, suicide bombers are cowards, and the insurgents simply hate our freedom.

 
207bibA
      Sustainer
      ID: 261028117
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 18:24
I was referring to Tree's link in #200.
 
208bibA
      Sustainer
      ID: 261028117
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 18:32
203 From the International Solidarity Movement's home page:
To join the ISM in Palestine, you must adhere to the following principles:
1 - Belief in freedom for the Palestinian people based on all relevant United Nations Resolutions and international law.
2 - Using only nonviolent, direct-action methods, strategies and principles to work towards our goal.

I don't have the resources you may have, but I cannot remember anything at all about Rachel Corrie supporting armed terrorists in Palestine or anywhere else.
 
209KnicksFan
      Donor
      ID: 030815418
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 18:38
A lot of info about the International Solidarity Movement here

Doesn't take too many resources to find info on this, just a google search.
 
210Tree
      ID: 322421716
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 22:37
To join the ISM in Palestine, you must adhere to the following principles:
1 - Belief in freedom for the Palestinian people based on all relevant United Nations Resolutions and international law.
2 - Using only nonviolent, direct-action methods, strategies and principles to work towards our goal.


it's been not exactly a well kept secret that the ISM didn't actually believe in, nor adhere to, their own "principles"

you can get a lot of info from the wikipedia entry for the ISM....

included are such tidbits as:

According to a 2003 profile of ISM cofounder Adam Shapiro in the Jordan Star, Shapiro "justifies the Palestinian armed resistance against Israel as long as it is targeting Israeli soldiers and Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Otherwise, he is not in favor of suicide bombings."

not exactly non-violent.

and let's bring it all back full circle, to Rachel Corrie.

Shortly after Corrie's death, the ISM placed photographs on a website which it claimed showed the events leading up to Corrie's death. AP, Reuters, and many Internet discussion pages reported that the photographs showed two (perhaps three) different bulldozers and inconsistent pictures of the sun's movement across the skies. The ISM then changed the site to show a more consistent group of photographs. According to Mother Jones, this incident damaged the ISM's image and its' relationship with the media.

yep, falsified photos...Rachel Corrie's death was indeed tragic, but the lengths at which the ISM went to to make her into a martyr are so unethical, it boggles the mind how anyone could support this group.

 
211Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 11:41
More "peace activists" at work...another suicide bombing in Israel..

best of all? Hamas calls it "legitimate," and akin to self defense.

The response by Hamas leaders represented a sharp departure from the previous Palestinian leadership's immediate condemnations of such attacks.

"We think that this operation ... is a direct result of the policy of the occupation and the brutal aggression and siege committed against our people," said Khaled Abu Helal, spokesman for the Hamas-led Interior Ministry.

Earlier, Moussa abu Marzouk, a Hamas leader abroad, told Al-Jazeera television that "the Israeli side must feel what the Palestinian feels, and the Palestinian defends himself as much as he can."


Hamas has already ceased to be viable, with that one comment. popularly elected or not, this seems to me as if one nation is invading another.

if the Palestinians truly want a homeland, then they must condemn these attacks, and their own government. otherwise, it's just a short matter of time until they find themselves again in territories they feel are "occupied," or worse, find themselves nomadic, and again being refused entry by their "Fellow" arab nations like Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.

enough is enough. Israel has made great strides for peace - doing the previously unheard of in giving up land, electing a leftist government, and the like.

and this is how the Palestinian nation responds? with an attack on the civilians of a neighboring country? f*ck 'em.

 
212Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 09:12
the silence from those who have seen israel as the aggressor in the past is deafening.
 
213Boxman
      ID: 46333184
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 11:58
A state sponsored act of terrorism by one government against another, an act of war if there ever was one. How is this not an act or war? When will Israel wake up?
 
214Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 11:59
When will Israel wake up?

I agree with your sentiment but I think that's the wrong question.
 
215Boxman
      ID: 46333184
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 12:16
Then what is the right question, When will Israel wipe Palestine clean off the map?

This was an act of war Donnie Baseball (no sarcasm, it just seems like you like the player, me too actually, not sure if HOF, but I've had blind admiration for players before).

For Israel, or any nation for that matter, to have any credibility whatsoever, they must respond when they are attacked by another government.

Bin Laden is right. The West (especially the United States) is weak when it comes to defending itself. Look what happened during the Clinton years. Now don't e-scream at me because that wasn't fair & balanced. I'm just using Slick Willy as an example.

Didn't NATO invoke Article 5(?) after 9/11? What did that get us? Nothing of sustained substance. The radicals in the Middle East see things like that and realize just how weak we are.

Arabs defend their beliefs with more zeal, loyalty and ferocity than the West is capable of I think. Until the free world wakes up, Islamofanaticism is going to keep winning, and it IS winning. Nevermind the insurgent or Taliban/Al Qaeda body count in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. New insurgents and Al Qaedas are being made faster than cheap plastic products in China.

This is why I am sadly convinced that the free world is destined to lose the so called War On Terror. If the goal of the WOT is to eradicate terrorism, we will lose. We are going to lose for the same reasons we are losing the War On Drugs and whatever other PowerPoint inspired bullet pointed tag line "Wars" we've got going on right now.

We always have to have the "high ground". You cannot win against this enemy with the high ground. Sometimes a good old fashioned bare knuckled beat-down is in order and the 17th Century inspired Rules Of Gentlemenly Conduct must be thrown out the window. Roll up the sleeves, assasinate some people, and get dirty.

I have said it before and I will say it again. There are two bodies in existence (and these are the only two) capable of winning the WOT provided our manly men politicians with a side order of deferments do not get in their way. They are the intel community and the special forces. They are our hope. No one else. Yes, and this will sound kooky, but this is a job for Rambo. Not for the 101st Airborne.

Yet we see fit to debate things and worry about feeeeeelings in the UN. All the while people get massacred and our enemies get emboldened and stronger.
 
216Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 12:38
A state sponsored act of terrorism by one government against another, an act of war if there ever was one. How is this not an act or war? When will Israel wake up?

trust me when i say i doubt anyone here is more pro-israel than myself, and that's not even allowing for the fact i've had two brothers serve in the Israeli Army, one of whom still lives in Israel.

Israel is playing this hand just fine. by showing themselves to be pragmatic, to not immediately respond by wiping Hamas and the PA off the map, is absolutely the strategic move that needs to be made.

War these days is a lot more than fighting on the battlefield. the PR battlefiend is nearly as important, and that's something Israel has sucked at fighting over the past 25 years.

But now, they have a chance to swing the PR back to their side, by showing "Hey! this country is attacking us, and we're trying to be diplomatic about it. we can't promise we'll be as diplomatic if these attacks continue..."

you Boxman, are quick to pick up the gun to settle your differences. times have changed, and that can't be the first, or even the second, course of action.
 
217Boxman
      ID: 46333184
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 12:49
Tree: "But now, they have a chance to swing the PR back to their side, by showing "Hey! this country is attacking us, and we're trying to be diplomatic about it. we can't promise we'll be as diplomatic if these attacks continue...""

And just how likely is this so called "PR" going to swing in favor of Israel on the Arab street no matter what Israel does? All they are doing is emboldening the enemy.

"you Boxman, are quick to pick up the gun to settle your differences."

If you're talking to someone who speaks Spanish, but you speak English. He will never understand what you say. The radical Muslims in Iraq, Iran, Palestine and across the Middle East speak one language and it is communicated at the end of a gun. Unless of course you count hudnas as real lasting peace.
 
218Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 12:51
So what's your solution?
 
219Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 12:57
If it were up to Israel alone, they might not have a problem devastating Palestine. But the realities of the political climate in the Middle East and the UN won't permit it. The US would also work hard to prevent it.

The resulting war might be the biggest and deadliest the planet has seen yet.

Also, whether this was a "state sponsored act of terrorism" is quite debatable. Hamas didn't take responsibility for the attack, Islamic Jihad did. I guess endorsement is a form of sponsorship but I don't think the term is meant to be applied that way when talking about "state-sponsored-terrorism". And whatever the case, I really don't see how speaking out in support of an act of terror (whether that amounts to "sponsoring" it on some level or not) is an "act of war".

Until the free world wakes up, Islamofanaticism is going to keep winning, and it IS winning.

Interesting. How do you measure who is "winning"?
 
220Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 13:16
Box - And just how likely is this so called "PR" going to swing in favor of Israel on the Arab street no matter what Israel does? All they are doing is emboldening the enemy.

honestly, i'm not so concerned about how the PR plays on the Arab street. i'm more concerned about how it plays to the UN, the US, England, Russia, and, perhaps some of the more moderate Arab nations.

that's where the battle of PR is fought. Israel saying to the rest of the world "ok, look. we gave them their own government, and now that government is endorsing attacks on our civilians. could you please do something about this, or we'll be forced to, and it will be ugly..."

and you can be damned sure it would probably be ugly...

MITH - Also, whether this was a "state sponsored act of terrorism" is quite debatable. Hamas didn't take responsibility for the attack, Islamic Jihad did. I guess endorsement is a form of sponsorship but I don't think the term is meant to be applied that way when talking about "state-sponsored-terrorism". And whatever the case, I really don't see how speaking out in support of an act of terror (whether that amounts to "sponsoring" it on some level or not) is an "act of war".

to a certain extent, i agree with you. it's not YET and act of war, but repeated attacks by proxy will eventually make it into one. Hamas has an obligation - an absolute undeniable obligation - to say "whoa whoa whoa, this is not cool. we in no way support the bombers that went into israel..."

saying "we condone this" might as well be carte blanche for more attacks on israel.
 
221Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 13:33
Good points, Tree. I would only add that the obligation is even greater than Hamas realized, because they are now a "legitimate" government, to which all sorts of terroritst groups will want to attach themselves to ride the coattails of legitimacy.
 
222Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 13:36
No argument.
 
223Boxman
      ID: 46333184
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 15:14
Mith: "If it were up to Israel alone, they might not have a problem devastating Palestine. But the realities of the political climate in the Middle East and the UN won't permit it. The US would also work hard to prevent it.

The resulting war might be the biggest and deadliest the planet has seen yet."

A bigger case of liberal generalization wherein someone communicates something with a zero value in the maximum words possible I have not seen.

"Hamas didn't take responsibility for the attack, Islamic Jihad did. I guess endorsement is a form of sponsorship but I don't think the term is meant to be applied that way when talking about "state-sponsored-terrorism". And whatever the case, I really don't see how speaking out in support of an act of terror (whether that amounts to "sponsoring" it on some level or not) is an "act of war"."

Oh, so I suppose Hamas and Islamic Jihad are on the outs? Not having the families over for Ramadan are we? Come on.

""Until the free world wakes up, Islamofanaticism is going to keep winning, and it IS winning."

Interesting. How do you measure who is "winning"?"

I'm not engaging in another Philosophy 101 so you can use that as an excuse to polute the internet with more secular progressivism.

Tree: "honestly, i'm not so concerned about how the PR plays on the Arab street."

You should be. Thems are the people blowing you up. No sense in preaching to the choir. Either surrender or win. Pick one, but please do one.

"to a certain extent, i agree with you. it's not YET and act of war, but repeated attacks by proxy will eventually make it into one."

Proof positive why liberals cannot be trusted with national defense.
 
224Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 15:47
A bigger case of liberal generalization wherein someone communicates something with a zero value in the maximum words possible I have not seen.

i leave it to MITH to respond since it was his statement, but if you think a war in the mideast will be small potatoes, you really need to take a sip of the reality tea, because you don't have a clue.

Tree: "honestly, i'm not so concerned about how the PR plays on the Arab street."

You should be. Thems are the people blowing you up. No sense in preaching to the choir. Either surrender or win. Pick one, but please do one.


preaching the the Arabs in the street won't make a damned bit of difference. many of them have been brought up in a culture of hate - from family dinner to elementary school education - and nothing is going to change their mind.

the changes will be much longer term - generational, if you will. we're not talking about the adults now, the teenagers now, and, i fear, the pre-teens and kids. we're talking about children not even born yet.

and where do you start?

with the rest of the world. when the rest of the world comes around - and make no bones about it - the vast majority of other nations have condemned israel time and time again, so this is hardly preaching to the choir - they'll be able to help israel win the generational battle.

"to a certain extent, i agree with you. it's not YET and act of war, but repeated attacks by proxy will eventually make it into one."

Proof positive why liberals cannot be trusted with national defense.


because the republicans have done so well.

i'll be blunt. are you honestly this stupid? i mean, we're talking about what's going in the middle east right now, and instead of address the issues, you're pulling the "He's a conservative/she's a liberal card"?

that has nothing to do with this issue.

Hamas gave tacit acceptance of a suicide bomber attacking israel citizens. is that wrong? absolutely.

is israel's first course of action to attack Hamas, destroy Hamas, and kill hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians in the process?

only if they want eternal international condemnation and possibly the start of a nuclear war, it is.
 
225Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 16:26
A bigger case of liberal generalization wherein someone communicates something with a zero value in the maximum words possible I have not seen.

Well its clear you don't read much.

Oh, so I suppose Hamas and Islamic Jihad are on the outs?

They are two seperate entities. One committed the act. That doesn't make the oter responsible for it. Islamic Jihad is not part of the Palestinian government.

I'm not surprised that someone who doesn't understand such concepts 'anecdotal evidence' or the difference between rhetoric and action also fails to understand that in order for a party to commit an "act of war", they must themselves actually "commit" the "act".

I'm not engaging in another Philosophy 101 so you can use that as an excuse to polute the internet with more secular progressivism.

Uh... I was the one who asked you the question. My recent post to which you refer (about 8 sentences on what I think of the word 'evil') came after you asked me whether Clinton was evil, remember?

Funny thing about that exchange is that you asked me that very ambiguous question (as I had already told you imo there are few words more ambiguous than "evil") and I took the time to not only give you an unambiguous answer (no) but to preface it with a fairest explanation I could give for what I think the word (and therefore your question) means. And now you use that as an excuse to avoid my questions when you fear that the answer will point to the flaws in your arguments.

I'll point out that the poliforum regulars on the left will typically take on liberals who aren't well enough informed to get by here. Toral? Boldwin? MBJ?
 
226Tree
      ID: 533101817
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 19:13
*THIS* is what i was talking about in regards to the PR battle.

Jordan Accuses Hamas of Smuggling Weapons

10 years ago, would Jordan have responded like this? unlikely...
 
227Tree
      ID: 533101817
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 20:56
Some Arab Papers Condemn Tel Aviv Bombing
 
228Boxman
      ID: 41324194
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 06:45
Mith: "They are two seperate entities. One committed the act. That doesn't make the oter responsible for it. Islamic Jihad is not part of the Palestinian government."

Right. And OUR government has never used go-betweens to achieve policy?
 
229Tree
      ID: 5937195
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 07:09
Right. And OUR government has never used go-betweens to achieve policy?

aside from the fact that's again irrelevant to the argument, i do find it entertaining that you're constantly bringing up points that play into the other guy's hand in discussions your having in other threads...
 
230Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 4923198
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 07:27
Foolish people were making similar arguments re Iraq, al-quaeda and 9/11 3+ years ago.
 
231Boxman
      ID: 41324194
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 08:20
Mith: "I'll point out that the poliforum regulars on the left will typically take on liberals who aren't well enough informed to get by here."

Mr. Police Man, please address the following.

"Right. And OUR government has never used go-betweens to achieve policy?

aside from the fact that's again irrelevant to the argument,"

Please regulate Tree and let him know that in fact governments do use groups directly or turn a blind eye to certain activities if it meets a policy goal.
 
232Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 4923198
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 08:45
Boxman, you said Hamas committed an act of war. That governments sometimes use "go-betweens to achieve policy" is not evidence of Hamas responsibility, its speculation that they might have been involved.

Add speculation to the list of things that you don't understand.
 
233Boxman
      ID: 41324194
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 10:03
Add naive to your personality traits.
 
234Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 10:13
I tap.
 
235Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 11:30
honestly, Hamas is doing everything possible to destroy their own people...

Militants on New Palestinian Security Wing

Interior Minister Said Siyam issued a decree appointing Jamal Abu Samhadana, the head of the Popular Resistance Committees, as director general of the Interior Ministry. Samhadana's group is responsible for many of the homemade rockets launched at Israel in recent weeks.
 
236Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 11:53
A militant leader appointed to a senior security position in the Hamas-led Palestinian government said on Friday he would not abandon the fight against

the rhetoric is strong. if they back it up with some kind of action, i fear the consequences will reverbrate world-wide.
 
237Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 12:00
"I'll point out that the poliforum regulars on the left will typically take on liberals who aren't well enough informed to get by here." - MITH

Explain why Tree hasn't been ridden out on a rail then.
 
238Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 12:05
If you mean to say that I haven't shown willing to openly disagree with tree or any other lefty posters for that matter you're mistaken.
 
239Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 12:17
Ah, when you see content free pap streaming from Tree you howl like a watchdog...examples please. Oh that it were true.
 
240Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 12:33
Well its clear that nothing short of my verbally assualting him would please you but my point in post 225 was not a call for hostility toward Boxman but for some on the right to call him on just some of his many numerous factual errors and gross misconceptions.

If realy you need an example of my so disagreeing with and/or addressing Tree, here's a thread I came across the other day. See posts 1 and 23.

I believe I can also find an example of Tree similarly correcting me.
 
241Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 12:53
Baldwin - honestly, are you this big of a prick in real life too? get your ass handed to you often?

i think it's been shown time and time again that those of us who lean toward the left here disagree with each other, correct each other, and offer support to each other as individual situations arise.

MITH was saying that maybe someone oughta do the same with Boxman, because he seems pretty outclassed in a lot of argued issues.

and, then you come in here from out of left field, flailing away with your silly insults. what happened? did your son come out of the closet last night?
 
242Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 12:54
That's a little over-the-top, tree.
 
243Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 13:07
A couple more:

Various lefty gurupies won't put up with anti-Israel liberals Blaze and Stomo

MITH and Tree disagree on Stanley Williams.

I don't believe Boxman is particularly prone to making personal attacks so this is something that is largely seperate imo but there's no reason for post 241. Obviously the tone was set in 239 but escalating doesn't serve any useful purpose.
 
244Boxman
      ID: 582442813
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 13:10
Tree: "MITH was saying that maybe someone oughta do the same with Boxman, because he seems pretty outclassed in a lot of argued issues."

I always knew I was right on a lot of topics, but now I KNOW that I know.

Boldwin: I've got that snippet of e-goodness from Officer Mith saved in a special place and each time Tree (or anyone) busts out an incoherent piece of jibberish, I'll be expecting Officer Mith to show up.
 
245Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 13:10
Speaking of over the top:

Israel Preparing To Retake Gaza Strip

That ought to spark a bit of controversy.
 
246Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 13:20
and each time Tree (or anyone) busts out an incoherent piece of jibberish, I'll be expecting Officer Mith to show up

Curious summary of your forum contributions. Personally, I'd give you more credit than that.
 
247Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 13:28
PV 245

Making preparations seems prudent at this time.
 
248Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 13:38
I'm asking why comments like PD's #142 are as rare as hen's teeth, when Tree is routinely that vaccuous and loathesome.
 
249Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 13:48
perhaps 241 was over the top, and i apologize. but sometimes, you have to return fire.

anyway, back on point.

PV -
Israel Preparing To Retake Gaza Strip

That ought to spark a bit of controversy.


buried pretty deep in the article is the following:

Israel already has made two brief incursions into Gaza in recent days to search for explosives. But defense officials said the odds of a large-scale operation or full occupation are slim because of financial and political constraints.

that's important to note...
 
250Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 13:51
Well thats a new topic that has little to do with the words you posted into post 237. I was asking why you guys let Box get away with factual errors and arguments that are dependant on misunderstandings.

FTR I have asked Tree to temper his personal attacks in the past but I also know that (much like you) my own unfortunate propensity for sinking to that level can make such efforts somewhat hypocritical.
 
251Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 14:07
FTR I have asked Tree to temper his personal attacks in the past but I also know that (much like you) my own unfortunate propensity for sinking to that level can make such efforts somewhat hypocritical.

FWIW, i do think i've reduced my personal attacks significantly.

i also think that most of them that have occurred recently, have been when Baldwin went trolling for me, and i foolishly took the bait....
 
252Boxman
      ID: 582442813
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 14:20
"i also think that most of them that have occurred recently, have been when Baldwin went trolling for me, and i foolishly took the bait...."

Oh the liberal emergeth.

I'm the victim! I'm the victim! I'm the victim!

What about my feeeeeeeelings? It's the other guys fault.
 
253Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Fri, Apr 21, 2006, 15:30
case rested.
 
254Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 09, 2006, 13:34
World Bank says underestimated depth of Palestinian crisis
In March, the World Bank projected that by the end of 2006 Palestinian poverty and unemployment levels would rise to 67 and 40 percent, and personal incomes would drop by 30 percent.

"We now consider these figures underestimates," it said in the memo.

===============================================================================

Western powers led by the United States and the European Union have frozen direct aid to the Palestinian Authority to put pressure on Hamas to renounce violence, recognize Israel and abide by interim peace deals.

Local, regional and international banks, fearful of being hit with U.S. anti-terrorism sanctions and lawsuits, have refused to deal with the Authority.

As a result, the Hamas-led government has been unable to pay salaries to 165,000 public employees since March, prompting concerns of a humanitarian crisis that could trigger an upsurge in Middle East violence.

===============================================================================

To ease the crisis while bypassing the Hamas-led government, European powers Britain and France have backed the creation of a special trust fund to help pay salaries to at least health and education workers.

But Western diplomats say the United States has been trying to block the proposal on the grounds that paying salaries would take pressure off Hamas.

In its memo, the World Bank said an existing program, known as the Emergency Services Support Project (ESSP), has for the last five years provided support to the Palestinian ministries of education, health and social affairs.

According to the memo, the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority "itself has said that it has no objection in principle to a temporary bypassing of its fiduciary mechanisms".

The World Bank said donor assistance dropped "more precipitously than expected", Israel further tightened Gaza and West Bank restrictions, and financial transactions by Palestinian banks have been sharply curtailed.

 
255Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Tue, May 09, 2006, 13:39
again, all Hamas has to do is say "we recognize Israel's right to exist," and condemn any terrorist attacks on Israel.

as of this moment, any suffering from the Palestinians is completely in the hands of their elected leadership.
 
256Boxman
      ID: 2630259
      Tue, May 09, 2006, 16:58
They may not have to Tree because U.S. to give Palestinians $10 million in medical aid

"A senior State Department official said the money includes $4 million in medicine and medical equipment for clinics run by nongovernmental organizations, which could start to be delivered as early as Wednesday. The remaining $6 million will be delivered through UNICEF, the U.N. children's fund."

And NO-BOD-Y has ever pulled the wool over the UN's glaucoma infested eyes before.

Way to go W.

 
257Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 10, 2006, 10:19
The last two sentences from the CNN article linked in post 256:
U.S. officials said the $10 million program announced Tuesday by Rice will be funded in part by the nearly $30 million that the United States requested back from the Palestinian Authority earlier this year.

In all, the U.S. has canceled or suspended $411 million in aid out of concern the money could help the new Hamas-led Palestinian government.
In my opinion it is significant that the funds came from money that was previously earmarked for Palestinian aid.

Today: Israel Gives Hamas Deadline to Negotiate
Israel will give the Palestinians until the end of the year to prove they are willing to negotiate a final peace deal, and will unilaterally set its final borders by 2008 if they don't, Israel's justice minister said Wednesday.

The statement by Justice Minister Haim Ramon, a close associate of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's, was the first by an Israeli official to set a deadline for the Hamas-led Palestinian government to disarm and recognize the Jewish state.

The Palestinians' moderate president, Mahmoud Abbas, of the rival Fatah party, has tried to persuade Israel to bypass Hamas and resume peace talks with him, but Olmert has said he wouldn't negotiate with Abbas if Hamas didn't change its violent ways.

"Through the end of this year, 2006, there will be honest attempts to talk to the other side," Ramon told Israel's Army Radio.

"If it becomes clear by the end of the year that we really have no partner, and the international community is also convinced of this, then we will take our fate into our own hands and not leave our fate in the hands of our enemies," he added.
Opinion from Captain's Quarters
The Israelis have tired of the occupation game, waiting for the Palestinians to produce viable negotiators for peace. Hamas will only commit to a "long-term truce' if Israel returns to the borders that Arab nations found so attractive for attacks twice in twenty years. The Palestinians won't even negotiate for a formal end to hostilities or recognition of Israel. They want to keep their primary goal alive, which is the destruction of the "Zionist entity" and the acquisition of all the land to the Mediterranean.

The Israelis will not establish the long and nearly indefensible border positions that almost saw them pushed into the Mediterranean, nor should they. Israel occupies the West Bank because of the offensive war that Arab nations staged through that territory; they risked that territory and lost it. The Israelis have every right to reset its borders accordingly to ensure that they have a more defensible frontier, and if the Palestinians refuse to negotiate the terms, then Israel should set them, pull back behind them, and end the occupation and the debate.
Also, regarding the proposal for Quartet aid to include paying the salaries of Palensinian government workers, which at the time of the writing of the CNN article, the US opposed:
THE United States, facing a possible humanitarian crisis, last night agreed with its Quartet partners to set up a “temporary international mechanism” to channel aid directly to the Palestinians, despite its boycott of Hamas.
In an agreed statement, the Quartet of the US, Russia, the EU and the UN said that the mechanism should begin operating “as soon as possible”, and ensure “direct delivery of any assistance to the Palestinian people”.

The statement was issued after Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia predicted a civil war if the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority was left to collapse.

Diplomats said that it was not yet decided how many of the 160,000-plus Palestinian Authority employees, including 70,000 security personnel, would receive their salaries through the arrangement. The government salaries, which support about one third of Palestinian families, have not been paid for two months.
Captain's Quarters again:
I have no objection to sending food and medicine to the Palestinian people for humanitarian purposes. However, sending money and paying the salaries of those with Fatah and Hamas government sinecures undermines the entire purpose of isolating the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinians voted these people into power, primarily because they believed that they would not have to suffer the consequences of electing unreconstructed terrorists as their representatives. Just when that decision started to make a personal impact on the people who made that decision, the Quartet has performed their normal Deus ex Machina role, rescuing the Palestinians once again from their own folly.

And what will be the result of handing cash over to these government employees? The Hamas government will collect taxes from the salaries, and probably in large amounts. The commerce it restores will also generate tax revenues for the Hamas-led government. Freed from the responsibility of paying salaries, just where will all those tax dollars go? It won't get earmarked for Bridges and Trains to Nowhere. And that assumes that Hamas (and Fatah as well) won't simply confiscate a large part of that money up front.
 
258Boxman
      ID: 2630259
      Wed, May 10, 2006, 10:45
The size of the previous pie (upwards of 400 million) to me is irrelevant as is the original earmarking of the funds. It is the destination of the funds I question and we learn nothing from history wherein money is given to help people but turned and twisted by their governments.

I of course do not want to see anyone starve or die from easily treatable diseases so I am not in favor of turning off the dripping faucet to the suffering poor Palestinian civilians. Where I am conflicted is that how do we do it in a manner that guarentees other groups don't procure these supplies? For admitted selfish reasons, how do we do it in a manner that gets the U.S. and Israel credit? After all, if Hamas can spin this issue such that they view it as a sign of western weakness or Palestinian strength, we just emboldened the enemy. I would be open to the idea of having the needy come into Israel for supplies, but that must create a security headache for Israel.

Ideas?

Where Our Money Goes
 
259Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Thu, May 25, 2006, 12:44
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Thursday he will call a national referendum on accepting a Palestinian state alongside Israel if Hamas does not agree to the idea within 10 days.

There has been a lot of Hamas-Fatah fighting recently. Even if this idea is simply a internal political ploy, it would be a great step. The story says that pollsters believe it would pass, furthering my contention that the Palestinians voted for Hamas not because of their stand against Isreal but because Fatah had become so corrupt.
 
260Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Thu, May 25, 2006, 14:01
furthering my contention that the Palestinians voted for Hamas not because of their stand against Isreal but because Fatah had become so corrupt.

that's piss poor logic.

So if a non-corrupt Hitler ran against a corrupt Ralph Nader, you'd vote for hitler?

Hamas are terrorists in the truest sense of the word.
 
261Perm Dude
      ID: 1436258
      Thu, May 25, 2006, 14:10
Palestinians weren't given the choice of Nader on the ballot, tree. Don't be slamming them for making a bad choice when they had to pick between two.

Truth is, Fatah had grown increasingly distant from everyday Palestinians the last few years, so Palestinians were faced with a Columbia Decision: Support the responsive local terrorists who bother only other people, or support lazy, corrupt, and non-responsive non-terrorists.
 
262Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Tue, Jun 13, 2006, 12:24
anyone who watches the news, or reads the newspaper, has seen the tragic footage/photos of a Palestinian family killed on a Gaza beach.

the media was quick to blame Israeli artillery fire for the slaughter of these innocents.

Even quicker to lay blame were the Palestinians, and Hamas cancelled an unofficial cease fire and began firing rockets into Israel.

well, apparently, investigations are showing that The Palestinians themselves, were to blame.

An explosion on a Gaza beach that killed seven people last week was caused by explosives planted there by Palestinian militants, not artillery fire from an Israeli navy gunboat, Israeli military sources said...

...An Israeli commando unit used the beach to enter Gaza for a mission in recent weeks, prompting the militants to place the mines, the sources said.

Intelligence information gathered by Israeli investigators showed that Hamas quickly removed the remaining mines from the beach after the blast, the sources said.


yes, this was an israeli investigation - i realize that. hopefully, there will be some independent investigation as well, but shrapnel removed from the bodies is quite telling.
 
263Tree
      ID: 55121318
      Tue, Jun 13, 2006, 19:14
more on the story here...
 
264Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jun 14, 2006, 09:19
the media was quick to blame Israeli artillery fire for the slaughter of these innocents.

You are aware that among the media that was quick to blame IAF were Israeli outlets, right?

Haaretz today:
Shortly after the incident occurred, the army was leaning toward accepting the assumption that the disaster was caused by an errant Israeli artillery shell. While the IDF spokesman's initial announcement did not formally accept responsibility, it expressed deep regret for the deaths and announced an end to the artillery fire on Gaza until the incident had been investigated. The foreign media unequivocally blamed Israel for the deaths, and the Israel media (including Haaretz) tended to do the same.
I don't know that you can fault the international media for this. The pro-Israeli media reported that IAF was to blame and IAF didn't deny responsibility as they expressed regret.
 
265Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Wed, Jun 14, 2006, 09:29
i agree with you MITH.

that being said, (and i'd love to be proven wrong), i'm sure that in various newspapers and such, when it was Israel's fault, it was page one, top of the fold material.

but now that this is coming out, i'm sure it's not getting the same prominant play.

and certainly not in the Palestinian world. did you see the news footage from one of the links provided?
 
266Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jun 14, 2006, 10:07
I'm sure you're right, regarding various media outlets, Tree. You should realize however that new news on who is responsible for the death of a family in another country, especially one rife with violence, is not as big a story as the family's death, itself. This is even more true if the new news is that the incident didn't likely involve an attack.

You should also realize that IAF's contention is contested.

NYT
An American expert working with Human Rights Watch, Marc Garlasco, is a former Pentagon official who did bomb damage assessment for the American military in Kosovo and worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency.

He said that he had visited the beach the day after the explosion, and that the crater size, the shrapnel and the location of injuries on the bodies all pointed to "a shell dropping from the sky, not explosives under the sand."

In an interview in Gaza, he said he had found shrapnel "consistent with a 155-mm. Israeli shell fired from a M109 howitzer," including one piece stamped "155mm."
This is in direct contention with the Israeli investigation, which also claims that the crater is evidence to support its claim.

And we do know that IAF had fired several shells into the area very close to the time that the family was killed. The linked Haaretz article ran the following quote from the IDF Defense Minister;
"We checked each and every shell that was fired from the sea, the air and from the artillery on the land and we found out that we can track each and every one according to a timetable and according to the accuracy of where they hit the ground.
But omitted from the Haaretz article is that one of the shells fired by IAF was unaccounted for. Israel did acknowledge this but denied that it could have caused the explosion that killed the family. From the linked NYT article:
Brig. Gen. Hezi Levy, Israel's surgeon general and one of the investigators, said that they had accounted for all but one of the shells fired that day, and that none of them had exploded during this time. He said the one unaccounted-for artillery shell was fired "much" before 4:57. Later, another military official specified that that shell was launched at 4:30.
 
267Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jun 14, 2006, 14:40
More on Garlasco's investigation

I'll point out that I've seen notably more coverege of Israel's investigation than Garlasco's.
 
268Borat
      ID: 10525610
      Thu, Jun 15, 2006, 09:40
Hehlo. I am Borat from Kazaky. Enjoy video.

Singing To Americans
 
269Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 13:40
"Return (kidnapped soldier) Gilad (Shalit, age 19) alive and healthy, stop firing rockets and we will return our soldiers to their bases," (Defense Minister Amir) Peretz said in a speech.

13 Palestinians, 1 Israeli soldier killed

seems pretty simple to me. i fear that the Palestinians are now giving, what is essentially a "gift", to the Israelis who felt that withdrawal, and peace, would never work.

it saddens me, because now i'm seriously starting to wonder myself if the Palestinians do, indeed, want peace.
 
270Tree
      ID: 40621811
      Sat, Jul 08, 2006, 12:23
Israeli leader rejects Palestinian truce

The five-point truce proposal that Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas issued Saturday called on Israel to halt its offensive and release prisoners, but said little about what Hamas is prepared to do in return.

ok, ok, stop shooting at us. um. what? return your kidnapped soldier? stop lobbing missiles at your people? NEVER!
 
271Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Sat, Jul 08, 2006, 13:44
Prolly felt emboldened by the recently proposed UN Security Council resolution which condemned Israel while saying nothing about recent Palestinian agression. Or maybe it was the recently set agenda of the new UN Human Rights commission (with Cuba and Iran on for stint) which has put Israel on as a topic for every meeting.

What a unfortunate unfunny joke the UN has continued to be in the situation.
 
272Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Jul 10, 2007, 17:17
This just makes me sad: Rachael Corrie's family asked a federal appeals court panel Monday to reinstate a lawsuit against Caterpillar Inc., saying the company knew bulldozers it sold to the Israeli government were being used to commit human rights violations.

How about doing something worthwhile to honor her memory?
 
273sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jul 10, 2007, 17:30
Sorry SZ...not to be overtly callous, but I agree entirely with not making Caterpillar pay. Thie rproduct, was being used as designed, as the manufacturer has no control over how the buyer uses it. Further, Isreal is not a nation where US companies are barred from doing business. Its tragic that Ms Corrie is dead. Its also her own fault.
 
274Perm Dude
      ID: 126201018
      Tue, Jul 10, 2007, 19:21
I completely agree. Lawsuits like this make legitimate ones more difficult.
 
275Tree
      ID: 166301020
      Tue, Jul 10, 2007, 22:09
What makes you sad SZ?

that her parents continue with a frivolous lawsuit that tarnishes their daughter's name? because that would make me sad if i was a believer in her cause, to see it shredded for money.
 
276sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Tue, Jul 10, 2007, 23:30
Wondering upon a second reading, if I havent misinterpreted SZ's intent. Perhaps the sadness is that the parents persist in this vein, vs expending their energies in doing something worthwhile to honor her memory. In that scenario, I would wholeheartedly agree with you SZ.
 
277Tree
      ID: 18645115
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 07:31
Sarge - that's why i took SZ to mean.
 
278sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 09:17
Your post Tree, is probably what spurred my thinking in that direction.
 
279Seattle Zen
      ID: 47630913
      Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 14:11


Court Rules Israel Is Not at Fault in American Activist’s Death
“It’s a black day for activists of human rights and people who believe in values of dignity,” Mr. Hussein said. “We believe this decision is a bad decision for all of us — civilians first of all, and peace activists.”

Yes, it is.
An Israeli judge ruled on Tuesday that the state bore no responsibility for the death of Rachel Corrie, the young American woman who was run over by a military bulldozer in 2003 as she protested the demolition of Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip. The lengthy verdict in the civil case, read in part to a courtroom in Haifa packed with supporters of Ms. Corrie’s family, called the death a “regrettable accident” — a characterization that Ms. Corrie’s allies strongly disputed.

“She chose to put herself in danger,” said the judge, Oded Gershon. “She could have easily distanced herself from the danger like any reasonable person would.”

Since her death, Ms. Corrie has become an international symbol of the Palestinian resistance. A play based on her writings has been performed in 10 countries, and a ship in an attempted aid flotilla to Gaza bore her name. Books, documentaries and songs have recounted how Ms. Corrie, a 23-year-old student, dressed in an orange vest and wielding a bullhorn stood between a bulldozer and the home of a Palestinian family in March 2003 during the height of the second intifada, or uprising.

Hussein Abu Hussein, the lawyer who brought the wrongful-death suit on the Corrie family’s behalf, said he would appeal the ruling within 45 days to Israel’s Supreme Court. At a news conference after the verdict, he showed pictures of Ms. Corrie taken the day of her death, saying “anyone could have seen” her bright garb.
 
280soxzeitgeist
      ID: 227522815
      Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 17:02
Here is a reposted and equally compelling picture of Ms. Corrie.

 
281Boldwin
      ID: 29847520
      Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 06:10
The rabid anti-Israeli left attempts to lure in reluctant Jewish voters into the big tent. Tho it juuust kills them to do it, don't you know.
 
282Boldwin
      ID: 29847520
      Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 06:14
A concession with Obama's aproval.
 
283Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 08:52
this may just be a political move, but it's an important one.

let's be real - there was no way Obama was ever "against" Israel, despite many thinking he was.

this should seal the deal, and he should regain much of the Jewish vote that was wavering.