Self Editor

Forum: slam
Page 562
Subject: SSHR - 1355

Posted by: Madman - [21020124] Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 01:49

First off, the AUCTION is now updated! It's live-time now, so you can get instant feedback regarding how you are doing.

I just placed a proxy bid on 3914 -- an unraced thoroughbred 2 year old (Black Tie Affair x El Gran Senor). I doubt I'll end up with the horse, but oh well. My bid is standing at $4,901,002, IIRC. Which means the previous bidder stopped at $4,901,001. Not gonna publish what my bid was, although it wasn't extravagant, I didn't think.

However, I will say that I have limited funds in that stable. Now I'm regretting not pursuing betting more heavily. AARGHAARGHAARGH.

Madman
ID: 21020124
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 02:21

Geez. That ride was over quick. Someone already out-bid me for that horse. I'm going to push it a bit higher to see if his limit comes quick. I'm not sure I can justify going more than $5m on a horse that may not run. I have just under $6m in that stable, so it's not like I've got cash to burn here . . .

Madman
ID: 21020124
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 02:25

OK, darn it. I pushed him up, and found his limit was at $5 million exactly. I went to $5,000,002. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be too upset if someone comes along and outbids me for this one. Geepers. I about had a heart-attack entering all those zeros . . . Even with betting being easy, it still took me 9 months to pile that much money up. Granted, I could have pushed the betting envelop harder, but geez.

Gotta find a good bet this week. Need another 500K fix.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 10:40

LOL, Madman. It certainly won't be me that outbids you. My best stable has $531,514 thanks only to Cab's long shot pick a few weeks ago. I did place a couple of bets last week, but lost. This is why I let the computer decide my numbers when playing the lottery.

I am sure there is no way I'm going to last until mid may to breed over Sally Plow. Maybe I should concentrate on betting to take my mind off breeding for awhile. For fun I sent her ID to Snakebite and his Bloodstock Advisory, to get his advice. I really need to expand my horizons on breeding. Everything focuses on Mr. P., ND, Seattle Slew, and Damascus. Horses like Diesis never even hit my radar screen for some reason. With as much time as I've spent looking up horses you'd think I'd see them all by now. I'm even to the point where I'm thinking of things like sex balanced line breeding, Yikes! I guess it's true, a little bit of knoweledge IS a dangerous thing.

This week features the return of my promising homebred Ally's Logic who was on a long layoff due to injury. I am backing him off to 6.5f and hope he picks back up where he left off as a 2yo. He is only RTG, but am hoping that doesn't matter.

Also entered Sixth Deputy in the Iron Horse competition strictly for fun. Who know if he gets in or not, but it looks like fun. Original plan was to rest him for a month, so if he doesn't get in it is no big deal. No way can he go 14f in the 3d leg even if he gets in.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 12:11

I finally broke down and installed the new SSS at work. Seems I ran into a 65K barrier with the old version or something. It just wouldn't import new files, and the MDB was at 65K. Installed the new complete version and it seems to work fine on my Windows 2000 machine.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 12:25

I need to start thinking of a turf sire to breed to Gold River (#27407) before the free-BP period runs out. Any suggestions? It came to mind because I was thinking of Diesis but that's literally first thot out of my heand.

Two of my 3-year-old pickups I really like go for that elusive AN1X this week -- Arctic Bean (#60020) and Nail Endangering (#70203). Also A P Fappi goes for his maiden after encouraging efforts (#22364) This was a quixotic $75K claim pickup. $75K is a great price to run a horse at because whoever picks him up can't run him at even the next lowest usual level ($50K) without losing BPs. I just thot somebody was trying to sneak one by me so picked him up.

Toral

Madman
ID: 35316313
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 13:22

Toral -- you NEVER lose BP in a race. Furthermore, you can slowly drop the tag if you can find a claim race for $60K then $50K, etc.

Stl -- Not sure about the 65K barrier thing. The newer raceouts are incompatible with the old version; maybe that was the problem. Glad the new one is working for you.

Regarding breeding, guys, my knowledge is worthless. First off, look at the success my expensive homebreds have had in the sim. Ugh. Secondly, I used to aim to breed to the best -- for turf, guys like Gone West, Woodman, Sadler's Wells, etc. With the new breeding rules . . . uh. . . .

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 13:35

Losing BPs from what you would have gained, I mean. And that's the problem -- there *aren't* ordinarily any claimers for $60K or $65K, you can't slide the horse down the scale (same problem to a reduced degree with $13.5K claimers). $50K is the next usual step down in the sim. Just checked on Find Races -- not a single race in the next 4 weeks between 50 and 75.

The new auction looks like a lot of fun! I've just been doing a little price-enforcing. At the level of the horses I go for, a key will be getting in early and putting in a proxy bid of $9999, essentially forcing anyone who wants the horse more than me to run the horse at $10K+ for the jail period (60 days?)

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 14:57

I've always had the feeling that the auction was worthless for someone like me (ie not a lot of cash) except to pick up a low level claimer or a horse to eliminate for breeding. It is just as easy to pay 50BP's to breed an open stall as it is to try to claim a horse or to buy one at auction. That is not true for a bargain baby, but is anyone even breeding those nowadays?

Low level claimers can be very good for a stable as I learned with my 3yo Her Atoms awhile back, but it is not quite as fun watching a 2k claimer with 5 ro 6 horses entered when you know the top speed is only going to be in the 50's or 60's. If it was a real horse I owned and felt attached to that would be a different story. Her Atoms was finally claimed from me 2wks ago and I really should replace him/her whatever it was. Maybe the auction would ge a good place to do that.

Otherwise, any decent horse is either not going to be in the auction, or if it is it will have a multi-million $ price tag, way out of my league. Can you find an allowance caliber horse for less than 10K in the auction? Seems that claiming races are better for that.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 19:57

Losing BPs from what you would have gained, I mean. I don't see that at all. Over the next two races, let's say that you could earn a 5th and a 4th in allowance races. That's what, a few points? Instead, what if you could finish 3rd in a 50K claimer and 3rd in another 50K claimer? That would net you 15 points -- far and above what you "would have gained".

If your horse can't compete in allowances, put him in claimers. Furthermore, jump down in tag ASAP, so you only spend one race not earning points. Not that big of a cost, IMO.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 20:02

I mean the penalty for running at less than .70 of the purchase price when over $10K in claimers, Madman. (Laff, I assume that rule's still there? The rules change so much...) The comp isn't between claimers-allowances but between staying at the same level in claimers and moving one level down. At other levels, one can claim a horse with the thot of moving it one level down if necessary, and getting a good run. The $75K tag and .7 rule put a disincentive on that at the $75K claimer level.

Toral

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 20:06

Mind you, I'm talking about the claiming-trainer view of the world where we scrape for points. I put A P Fappi right into MSWs in any case (and he's done well there; he will win an MSW soon, and if he doesn't, the 60-days will have passed soon so I can move him doen.). But a $75K MC is a clever place to put a horse who you think potential claimers will doubt can move up, because if he bombs (and I was talking about a first-time starter here), you're penalized for moving him down even one step.

Toral

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 20:11

StLCards, no you definitely can't find allowance horses for less than 10K in the auction (few exceptions, not important). In fact, I don't think you can find them for less than $100K, although I could be wrong...I pass over horses in the $25K-$1MillionK range very quickly -- horses I can't see training to win an allowance (veteran ones at least) go for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 282223017
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 21:34

So much for not getting into 2yo races. All Summer from the Gurupie stable drew into race 4312, a six horse race for 2yo male MSW. Going off at 2/1.

Still have 403BP's in this stable. Someone give me a line to breed.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Wed, Apr 03, 2002, 23:10

toral -- 10/11 -- I just don't understand that argument. If the horse can't compete at $75K or above claimers or allowances, then you aren't penalized anything for pushing the envelop and moving him down to $50K.

Furthermore, that's a perfect time to switch continents for a horse -- when you know that the horse won't score you positive points anyway. I guess I just don't think that penalty is that big of a deal. Put the horse at the level you think it can win; the points follow.
---------------------

This is really peeving me. Agrippina has failed yet again to draw into any MSW race. 4 consecutive races she's failed to draw into. AAARGH. 3yo F races are extremely undercarded.

StLCards -- Honestly, breeding is so whacked right now, that I can't give you a line to breed. All the stuff I do has gone to 1000+ points for awhile.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Thu, Apr 04, 2002, 02:56

cab -- I see you are in GSR! Check it out -- you made the cut for division 1. Looks like that division is going to be rather cut-throat! We'll have to show everyone what Gurupies are made out of. :)

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Thu, Apr 04, 2002, 03:10

Grr. I'm only in Div 2. I told barndog or whoever he is that I didn't want to be in any div higher than 3 -- I was in the "blue zone" there , and looking ahead to div 2, when when Gaz f*****d out of his responsibilities. I was cheated out of 3 or 4 useless sim dollars!

Only applied today, so I expect the new residency will be more effcient than the old. Sad fact is -- I don't think a lot of people will mis Gaz, or to be accurate, I think a lot of people won't miss Gaz much. It does sadden me, and I can understand a bit why people defend bad practices out of friendship. Oh well -- he certainly made his own bed!

Toral

cab
Donor
ID: 4326310
Thu, Apr 04, 2002, 04:09

Geez...I don't know that i belong in such illustrious company...(especially given the entries of my horses this week...It doesn't look too promising!)

I think what Toral is getting at Madman, is that you don't get your full compliment of points if you race at less than 70% of what you claimed him for....You could claim a horse for 75k and then run him in a 2.5k claim race but you would end up with next to no points...

I believe this is the rule that explains it:

"If you acquire a horse (through either a claim race or an auction) for more than $10,000, and run the horse in a claim race for 70% or less of what you paid for it within 60 days of purchasing it, you may be subject to another point penalty. For every % point below 70% of the purchase price you paid, you will be accessed a 1 point penalty. So, if you run a horse you purchased for $40,000 in a $25,000 claiming race :

25000 / 40000 = 62.5% -- 7 point penalty (rounded to your favor)"

The breeding has me scrambling too STL!...I have been looking over a number of sires etc and still have no idea where i am going!...Does anyone have any opinions wether i should breed over this horse?(Aside from the fact that his racing record is not all that great)...Western Plus oak, #30664?...He is by Seattle Slew x Surumu(ger)...It would cost 125 for the sex change but it is almost impossible to use Seattle Slew at the moment...Sort of the same situation you had with Nine Rally ,Stl?..

Madman
ID: 35316313
Thu, Apr 04, 2002, 13:20

Toral -- sorry I missed you. Didn't know you were in there. Honestly, I never got paid for my finish in ASR last time, and doubt I would have this time.

And the more I see what Gaz posted and did, he was an egotistical liar who attempted to win friends in the sim by purchasing races and putting himself in a position where people "needed" him and therefore stroked his ego. The cool thing about GSR is that it may prevent him from re-opening ASR again. My guess is that he's already opened a bunch of stables and is re-inventing himself in the sim -- again. We'll probably never know for sure who he is this third go around. . .

cab -- yeah, I understand that rule. I just don't think it is really that important in practice. Put the horse where it can compete. Let the points follow. I'd rather have a horse get zero points this week and have a chance at 18 next week than to get 1 point this week and 3 next week.

Regarding breeding, I *do* recommend spending the BP's to convert even male broodmares right now. It's too expensive to breed a decent combo from scratch. My general rule is that I want proven 90+ speed ability from the horse I breed over. I'll check out your specific horse this evening.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Thu, Apr 04, 2002, 13:25

Just saw this on the main message board. 50798 MR. MENIFEE Male 2 yo by Mr. Prospector. What?

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Thu, Apr 04, 2002, 16:41

Madman re ASR: What you said.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 282223017
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 00:31

Madman I was looking for claimers and came across Paul's Beats. You think you have a chance at keeping him? I would love to put in a claim on that one.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 01:10

Go ahead and put a claim in on him. After I saw the odds he went off at, I don't think I'll keep him anyway. Rather have a Gurupie get him, if possible. You at the same track?

I do have to warn you, however, that he's the horse that is leading me to believe there is a class-factor. Check out his race history -- he can put up great numbers in claim races, but tanks at anything else. Very frustrating. Also, don't forget this is his last week with a $10K tag. After this week it jumps to $25K, IIRC. However, he'll keep that for 6 months. It's also possible that even a high tag like that will be very useful with the new starter rules. . .

But I'm sure I'm going to lose him. I had snuck him through 4 previous claim races, believe it or not. When he ran 87 last week I finally got miffed at him to the point where I said "Who cares if I lose him. At least he'll place for me." In addition, finding close-by turf sprints nowadays is a pain in the rear, and he has somehow lost his dirt ability.

His breeding is excellent, so if you have extra points, you might consider doing the male broodmare thing.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 282223017
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 01:36

Thanks Madman, but hopefully you can keep him for another week. I do have a horse from the Gurupie stable running there, but it only has $20K total. My other stables are pretty full. I am putting claims on a CB horse at track 49. Seems to be a bunch of CBers there. A hangout perhaps? I also put in a claim on a Conquistador Cielo 6yo and a King of Kings 4yo filly. If nothing else should be good for a win in claimers later. Was really looking for a broodmare.

What do you think about that screw up that allowed a 2yo Mr. Prospector to be bred (post 19)

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 04:27

StLCards -- if you want Paul's Beats, feel free to snag him. As I said, I'm pretty sure I'll lose him anyway. No biggie either way.

That 2 year old Mr. P. sounds extremely fishy. The horse definitely used the breeding of the broodmare, but I don't see how it just "happened" to screw up like that. Possible, but very strange. Mike needs to weigh in and fix that, ASAP.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 04:57

BET 1355:

Try 1355.3015, #7 at 5/1 odds should be good to win. To hedge, I'm going to bet the following combination:

#7 to win: $100,000 (at 5/1 should pay $10 for every $2 bet?????
#7/#5 Exacta Box $15,000
#7/#1 Exacta Box, 15,000

Really not scientific about the quantities. Trifecta prediction: #7 / #5 / #1

Help with the amounts that should be bet, also appreciated.

Notes on the race:

#1 at 12/1 70-80 speed potential.
#2 at 2/1 has proven failure at 12f (65 speed) Start% theory indicates max distance at 10-11f.
#3 proven failure at 11f in second race.
#4 race favorite proven failure at 12f in week 278. Also slow times at 9f later in career.
#5 at 9/2 82 speed past performance at 12f, 13f slower. However, owner changes start%, so hard to ascertain if it is capable.
#6 No way.
#7 at 5/1. My race favorite. 89 speed LTO at 14 f. Only problem coming off recent injury. 82 speed in week 1208. Should be lock to win. Great jockey.

In fact, maybe the better way to play this is a series of win bets -- big money on #7, bets on #5 and #1 to cover losses if #7 doesn't win. Exacta bet just increase your exposure to the risk of #7 getting injured.

I know that people mock the attempt to find these bets and share them. But I don't find this to be trivial.

cab
Donor
ID: 132853
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 08:06

Agree with the assessment of the race,Madman....I love to pick on races like these too...I might punt it myself!

I have noticed with consistency that you get more for your $2 bet than double...At 5/1 my guess is somewhere between $10.50 and $12 for a $2 bet...

This isn't too scientific either, but i put a show bet(or sometimes a place bet) on if i am not entirely convinced the horse will win...Somewhere in the 40k-60k region...At least you get most of your money back if it doesn't win but finishes itm...

Also, I am unsure, but i think you can win back 500k PLUS whatever you bet?...I have never been too sure about that though...Or it may be that you simply get your stake back as well?...

This reminds me of the times when i was a kid and i used to sit down with the old man on a sunday morning and try to devise ways to beat the bookies!...We had a lot of theories(mostly trying to pick trifectas) and on paper they would work for a while, but ultimately there would always be a losing streak to ruin things(We never put any into practice,just on paper)...He bought a book once, and in the back of it was a table on how you could bet 2,3 or even 4 horses in a field, and so long as one of them won, you would always come out ahead...Of course,you needed to have a huge starting bankroll(by my standards anyway)which ruled us out!..and you still had to make 4(or whatever) selections out of fields with 14 starters or more...I still have it somewhere...I wonder if i can find it?...Selecting horses in the sim is far easier than IRL and the money is no problem...

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 12:07

I just realized Sixth Deputy drew into race 7113 in the Iron Horse series. Didn't think he made it. Bets odds in that race are 9/1. Sixth Deputy is out at 11/1. Imagine the payoff for picking the trifecta in that race.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 12:20

I can't get the SSS to import week 1348. Week 1348 downloaded from Supertoy's archive as normal, when I go to File/Import Tace Data/1348/Open nothing happens. Deleted first 1348 and redownloaded it, still nothing. Where do I go from here?

Talk about being priced out of the auction. I was willing to pay $9999 for Ratty Ca7 #4794, grandson IIRC of Storm Cat. He went for over a million.

Toral

cab
Donor
ID: 132853
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 12:28

Ok, I've been doing some sums at work..I'm going to try this...

Using the race 3015 i'm going to bet 1,5 and 7
For ease of brainpower i am going to assume the 5 horse is at 4/1 rather than 9/2(The difference is not going to be significant i don't think)..

Using this guys formula(Jimmy Davis was his name from memory)his aim was to win $100 net:

5 is at 4/1(A)
7 is at 5/1(B)
1 is at 12/1(C)

Bet on A: (B x C)= 60 x 4/1 = 240
Bet on B: (A x C)= 48 x 5/1 = 240
Bet on C: (A x B)= 20 x 12/1= 240
Total bet = 128
Total gross if any one of the 3 win = 240
Net win = 112(240 -128)

To win the Maximum 500k:

Half the bets:
30 x 4/1 = 120
24 x 5/1 = 120
10 x 12/1= 120

bet total = 64
Gross win = 120
net win = 56

And then add the appropriate zeros...
300,000 x 4/1 = 1.2 mil
240,000 x 5/1 = 1.2 mil
100,000 x 12/1= 1.2 mil
bet total =640,000
Gross win =1.2 mil
Net win = 560,000

Kewl!...I didn't realise so many zero's would be involved...LOL...Maybe it would be better to try to win 100k in 5 races to spread the risk...

Any mathematicians; feel free to pick this to bits!...

Also, could it be construed as cheating?

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 13:07

Toral Try downloading the raceout.zip file for week 1348 from the Downloads page in the sim. Where is says "click here for most recent...." There are a bunch of the zip files there. Make sure to save it as a .zip and then edit the first race by adding the one. I think it says 348.xxxx and not 1348.xxxx.

Do you have the newest version of SSS? I had problems loading the more recent ones, and it turns out they are incompatabile with the old SSS.

Cab I'll have to win a few more bets first before I have enough to make those bets, LOL. Maybe I'll try that deleting one of the zeros.

Seems a tough way to go. Betting more than you will win? I liked your 12/1 long shot pick better!

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 13:13

Oh heck. I have an old SSS. How much of a hassle is it to replace it with the new one. All these damned improvements, all this change everywhere....

Toral

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 13:13

Cool. Going to do that distribution of winners, I think, cab. Dont' see how it could lose. Could it be construed as cheating? I suppose it could by someone. Personally, Mike set up betting, and all we are doing is trying to find the best bet. We aren't trying to ruin horses, and we aren't doing anything he asked us not to do.

Toral 28 -- I usually get the raceout.zip from Mike's site directly, open it in Word, replace the 348.0101 with 1348.0101, save, then import into the SSS. You shouldn't have any trouble with it if you do that. Otherwise, the most likely error is a download problem. Seems like a lot of people use Supertoy's site, so I imagine his raceout.zips are OK. Not 100% sure, however.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 13:20

Toral - I downloaded the most recent version of SSS and installed it with minimal hassle. I did the full blown version as the compact version didn't work (at work). Compact version did work for me at home. All I did was made a new directory, ran set up from the extracted files, and then copied the horses.mdb file into the new directory (I didn't use the default path). Everything worked great and was fairly painless.

cab
Donor
ID: 132853
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 13:50

If i have got it right you can't "lose" money , STL (Unless none of those horses win,of course)...It's like betting on a 1/9 shot, where you have to bet $9 to win $1(net),90 to win 10 etc,etc...except you are spreading the risk by having 3 chances in the race...In this race , i believe , you would be spending $8 to win $7(net or profit)...I'm not sure what odds that transfers to but it is far better than 1/9,3/5 odds...If you were to bet 640k on a 1/9 shot , the net profit would be 96k(i think!)...(You may or may not get the original stake back however, which i'm not sure about)

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 13:58

cab It's the part about none of the 3 winning that would worry me. All it takes is for 1 of the 4 other horses to have a great day and you lose a pretty hefty stake.

cab
Donor
ID: 931514
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 14:09

Yup...Thats true lol..Thats why i wouldn't try it if the money was coming out of my pocket!...You could use the formula to cover a whole field i think...Particularly if it is a smallish field...The numbers would start to become astronimical though...Also, i don't know how it would work if there were a couple of really short horses(1/9,3/5 or1/2 etc)...The real trick is to find the right race to punt on...One where you can narrow it down to 2 or 3 chances with a reasonable amount of confidence...

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 14:16

This strategy won't work if the favorite actually has a chance. But in this situation it's perfect. We know that the top 2 favored horses will NOT have a great day, since they can't handle the distance. Honestly, the only 3 that even MIGHT win this race are the three we're placing the bet on.

I'm going to keep looking around to see if there's a more obvious race to bet on. It would be nice to spread the risk through other races.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 16:01

UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, I just got stupid. I'm trying to get a feel for this proxy bidding thing, and just got the high bid for 3914 ($6,000,001) and another horse ($1,406,002). Uhh. OOOOOOPS. It was so fun to push up the price . . . uh h h

Here's hoping someone comes along and saves me from my stupidity . . . That will leave me with less than $300K in rotciv, and less than $3.5m in madman3. UGH. Idiot. . .

Fred Cup-Holes
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 16:25

Madman, 3914 looks like a sweet horse, but who knows with a 2yo. The sim seems to be full of Royal bred 2yo's.

If you really didn't want him, I guess you could try to find a horse where the auction ended earlier and buy that one thus filling your stable. I wonder if that would be possible or what would happen in that instance. Could I bid on a horse even if my stable was full? I could drive the price up on horses and have no chance of claiming them?

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 16:33

Fred Cup-Holes -- good points! Interesting test. Gonna go do that now. It's not that I don't want him. Just that I wasn't a big fan of spending that much on a totally unproven horse. I still HAVE to breed my own in that stable, meaning that barn would become awful young.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 16:34

Dang. I can't bid on another horse. It counts the stall spot that I'm high bidder on against me.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 16:39

oops, that was me. Goofing around in the golf forum, aka Fred Couples. Forgot to change back, LOL.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 16:51

Yeah :) recognized the ID, Fred.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 2504849
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 16:53

Madman, looks like you have the highest bid in the whole auction! Hope the horse turns into a G1 stakes winner :)

You could always put him back in the auction next week or put the one you breed into the auction.

I just stumbled across your other bid. Ouch!

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 18:25

Yeah. It's so bad, I posted an advertisement on the main message board. Geez. I don't want these horses at that price. The $6m baby actually is reasonably priced, but it just eats too far into my cash reserves for an untest nag.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 18:26

The good news is that this is kind of a no-lose situation now. If I win those horses, then this puts the lie to those complaining about how money is no object, etc.

If I lose those horses, well, I don't have to pay $7.5 million out of my barns! Wu-hoo!

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 20:10

Hmmm. Bets are processed BEFORE the auction, yes? So I can put a whole behind full of cash into a bet without worrying about the auction?

And if I just happen to lose . . . Hmmm. I could bid the price of the horses up to my max stable cash . . . then place a $2 losing bet, meaning I could no longer afford the horse! Hmmmm. The auction must be processed BEFORE bets, then, yes?

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 282223017
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 21:27

Madman, That sounds like a risky proposition. My guess is that the auction money is "Live" and you woudn't be able to place a bet larger than the difference between your stable cash and auction bids.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 282223017
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 22:02

Madman, I did what I could to help generate interest. It really is true what I said. I would love to get Black Tie Senor, just not for $6M!

Madman
ID: 35316313
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 23:32

:) Thanks. It looks like I am free from the Jodie's Halo kid.

Honestly, I almost wouldn't mind picking up Black Tie Senor. I mean, it is $6 million. But that's just 9 months worth of betting. Not like I'm going to do anything else with my money -- you know?

Glad I didn't waste $1,406,002 on Kurt whatever his name was, however.

If you're going to splurge, get the best. :)

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 282223017
Fri, Apr 05, 2002, 23:50

I agree Madman. Black Tie looks good, but that other one? You could easily breed that one. No reason to spend $$.

cab
Donor
ID: 931514
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 00:10

I see that Foxon(GSR)agrees with you on race 3015, Madman...He has posted some good tips in the last few weeks, although he did miss out last week..

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 01:06

I see Lordpye likes my Full Honours at 10/1 in ther 2-year-old race Michigan 2101. Sure hope he's right, as it would be nice to have a 2-year-old that didn't take 8 months to snag a win.

Toral

Madman
ID: 35316313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 02:19

Toral -- you gotta like a 2 year old that can go 60+ speed already. However, my experience -- for whatever reason -- has been that the second performance for a 2 year old is almost always worse than the first. Go figure.

At any rate, he should place ITM for you, at least. 2 year old races are a pain to predict; but getting a faster horse is a tough thing to do.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 04:15

OK, I boxed a trifecta and exacta on the 3 horses along with wins on them all. Hoping for a big payout :)

Madman
ID: 35316313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 09:29

Well, rotciv stables is now official in big trouble. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Technically, it should have $332K available after the auction closes.

The problem is that I levied a $300K bet on #5 in that race, a $240K bet on #7 and another bet on #1.

The big problem is that I did them in that order, and I am predicting that #7 will win. Will the program take the bets in order? If so, it will register the losing $300K bet FIRST, meaning it will be accepted and I'll lose that cash!!!!

Here's hoping that if you place more bets (total) than your bankroll that it doesn't let ANY of them go through.

Actually, the best would be if there is a programming glitch and the bets would be allowed to go through only if you won money . . . We shall see.

Black Tie Senor better win the freaking derby next year . . . So much for the idea that there are just hundreds of stables with tens of millions in cash just dying to be spent, eh?

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 10:47

Thanx for the betting tips. I'm behind, so I started with Madman 25. Beyer wrote a lot about efficient betting potential in races like this...but unfortunately I don't remember it. The exactas might be a good idea but I fear the 1 sneaking in to what should be a 7-5 or 5-7 so I'm avoiding it.

Simple bet --
$100 K #7 to win.
$20 K #5 to win. (Simple saver. If the 5 wins the day is essentially a wash).

Not saying this is most efficient bet -- probably not.

BTW who mocks finding these bets and sharing them?

I've only had one +$500K day, on a Hannibal tip on a two-mile race. Looking for another (well-near $500K, I have to substitute the $20K saver)today.

Toral

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 10:50

Cab No possible way it could be construed as cheating. You're risking big cash on your assessment of the race.

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:05

I have a question on betting. When you look at the entry box their are 12 boxes across for win, place, show. Say I want to box a 7-5 exacta. Do I enter 7win/5place in column one, and then 5win/7place in column 2? or do I have to enter them separately? I never quite know what will happen if I enter multiple #'s for a bet. For example, What would this bet be: column1 7win; column2 5place, column2 1place. Does that mean I have bet on two exactas 7-5 and 7-1? or does it mean I have bet 7-5 exacta and 5 to place? very confusing to me.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:24

1. To box a 7-5 exacta enter 7 and 5 in row 1, and 7 and 5 (in any order, 5 then 7 is fine) in row 2. (As I use it, rows go across and columns down)

2. If I understand your 2nd question right (you say by column what I mean by row) you have placed two bets, 7-1 exacta and 7-5 exacta. IOW if there's anything in the win row, a number in the second row creates an exactor bet (or a trifector if something is entered in the third row as well).

Toral

cab
Donor
ID: 43315611
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:29

If you place 5 and 7 in row one(1st) and 5 and 7 in row 2(2nd) that will box it STL...For a $2 bet it will cost you $4(ie:2 x $2 exacta bets)...Actually, do you need to box 2 horses for an exacta?...We have quinellas here in NZ,which are basically the same thing, except the 2 horses can finish in any order...

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:36

You don't need to box exactors; you can just bet straight up (e.g. 7/5).

There are quinellas in N.A. here too. I think the quinella actually preceded the exacta, but not sure. The effect is the same as a boxed exacta, except that 1) you only need to spend $2; and 2) the pool is separate. The wise guys sometimes spend time comparing quinella and exactor payouts (arbitrage).

There used to be (prob still are) silly rules made by some Racing Commissions limiting the number of exotic bets a track could offer. In some jurisdictions, the tracks ditched the quinella to add the trifecta, Pick Three, Pick Six, Superfecta (4 horses) or whatever else, so you don't see the quinella everywhere now.

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:37

I do mean rows going across and columns going down. I could be in a heap of trouble. I tried to box a trifecta and put all 6 combinations possible. For example:
1,1,2,2,3,3
2,3,1,3,1,2
3,2,3,1,2,1

I wonder what I really bet?

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:38

You boxed a 1-2-3 trifecta.

Same effect by just entering 1, 2 and 3 in all rows.

Toral

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:39

From the instructions:

"ENTERING THE SAME HORSE MULTIPLE TIMES IN THE SAME ROW WILL STILL ONLY RESULT IN ONE BET, NOT MULTIPLE BETS!"

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:40

So I could have just done:
1,2,3
1,2,3
1,2,3

????

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:41

Yep.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:43

Ok thanks. So I guess I still scewed up when I also went:
5,7,7,5,1
7,5

I wanted to box the exacta and also bet 7,5,and 1 to win

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:44

You bet 4 exactas, 5-7, 7-5, 1-7 and 1-5.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:45

To bet 1, 5 and 7 to win enter 1, 5, and 7 in row one and nothing in row 2.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:48

Thanks guys. I think I have it figured out now. Hopefully that race pays off. I wouldn't mind getting a few million $$ to buy a horse myself!

Wish the races were up already, I have a bunch running.

I'm surprised there is no Daily Double to bet on!

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 11:52

This is a week of low-odds horses for me. 4 favorites plus two 3/1s and a 7/2 from 11 entrants.

Weeks with odds like this have *always* been disastrous for me in the past, and I expect nothing different this week. From past experience, I can safely project: 1 win, from one of my 7-1 or 8-1 shots.

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 12:05

Toral - I've often wondered if there is an "owner" variable as well. Seems that some weeks all my horses run well under what I would expect when other weeks they run well over my projections. Seems my best odds weeks are often my worst fot ITM finishes.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 12:14

Hmm...but could an owner available apply to 4 or more different stables?

I'm beginning to supsect I run my horses too hard -- 4 and up, I train them to run 2 weeks apart (if they come up RTG or Sharp!) and always run them when sharp when there's a race available. Some trainers like Hannibal look at fitness more closely and like to give breaks or run <100% preps every once in a while. Hannibal says other trainers scoff at this, so I don't know...but I'm thinking about it. Napkin Kicking at least is scheduled for a "prep" next time out. To build stamina -- set the horse to run way off the lead and go 100% at a longer distance than he likes. Rough approximation of a workout regimen to build stamina. Will it work? No idea.

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 12:21

Woo Hoo!!! Look at race 7113 for some real excitement!

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 12:26

Exciting? Don't think so. that Sixth Deputy guy, whoever he is, just blew away the field ;)

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 12:33

Could this be the new Iron Horse? Has a great shot in the turf sprint in the next leg. That 14f though just might kill this old guy! Then he'll be on even ground with the rest of my ponies, LOL.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 12:39

Oh thank you, you lovable plug you. I was about to give up the sport. Race of the day: 1355.2101!

Toral

Madman
ID: 35316313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 12:58

Crazy week! Congrats, Toral, on your newbie's run.

Out of 10 starts, I had 6 second places finishes. No wins, no thirds. Just seconds. Very frustrating.

Brown Bro ended her low-tag starter career with a career best 88 speed over 13f on dirt. Hmmm . . . dang. Going to make it hard to slip her through claimers next race.

Skin Jumping got me my 100+ speed for the week, sneaking in at 101.8.

Red Summer one of my prized homebreds, couldn't even break 50 this go around. See, Toral, what I'm talking about here? Second race ISSSS slower! Extremely frustrating.

Paul's Beats even ran slower and finished 2nd. I thought he was a lock to win for sure.

Val's Desert quit his 100+ speed string and finished second. AAAAAAAAAAARGGGGH. You get the picture.

On the sad side, Sal at the Bell really tanked it up in his allowance race. Somehow, he has suddenly gone sour. Going to move him away from Nebraska, give him 3 weeks rest, and run him at 10 or 11f.

Toral -- I think you are on to something with the every 2 week thing. My horses who are on that cycle (Sal at the Bell) seem to stagnate after a bit. They bounce back if I give them 3 weeks off occassionally. But they need that occassional break, it seems. Not sure you need a prep race -- that seems like a waste. But a change in distance and a change in rest seems warranted often-times.

See King North for another example just from this week. On the flip side of the argument is a horse like Skin Jumping who ran well after 2 weeks rest for the 4th race in a row. As long as the horse is "hot", I don't think this is a problem. But if the horse is off his game, maybe prep races or extra rest is a way to go. Because I'm becoming convinced that horses go through cycles in this game.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 13:02

BTW, that Sixth Deputy speed rating is a new Gurupie record, I think. 112.9. WOW.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 13:18

Holy excrement, Toral, have you seen your record this week! Wow. Congrats. Ap Fappi also won, BTW, meaning you had two break their maidens today. If you're not in the lead in division 2 in GSR, then there is a real problem . . .

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 13:21

And to think I was going to give Sixth Deputy a month long layoff thinking he was tired! Two weeks ago he was a little groggy coming off a terrible race and I thought he needed rest. He came up sharp without being trained and I thought what the heck, throw him to the wolves in the Iron Man and maybe I could at least have a shot at a lottery ticket for that royal 2yo.

Looking at the way my 2yo's ran this week, I wonder why even bother? In MO we had a 2yo series. My 2 fillies entered in a 20 horse race for fillies came in 17 and 20. LOL! They were trounced by bargain breeds even and all were first time runners!

Ally's Logic ran his first race race this year coming off his injury. Came in 3d at RTG so that is good news.

Rich Wine smoked the field in her race. She is only a few races out from a long injury, so maybe injuries don't really negatively impact horses.

Nice run for Full Honours Toral and a nicer payout!

At least 1 or 2 of my stables will cash in on the 7-5 exacta in race 3015. Thanks.

Had several shows a few places and only 2 wins, but I'll take it. More horses to claimers in the future and I'm going to start rotating claimers the best I can. Very dissapointed in my 2yo's but time will tell with them.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 13:31

OK, I can stop whining. Finally had my week -- 5 wins in eleven races. That's a month's quota for me recently. This is a week where I actually needed to download the raceout right away to check the speeds and see what the future should bring -- cause my young horses stepped up today. (BTW, the course Madman suggested -- downloading Mike's original raceout and editing it -- worked fine. There was some problem with Supertoy's version of 1348, as discussed on the MB. Supertoy's 1355 works fine.)

Full Honours won, putting up a weak speed of 58. She was only RTG though.Nearly getting caught at 4.5 suggests that she will be just a sprinter, as she was bred. But hopefully she can make some hay.

A P Fappi did indeed win his MSW, after two seconds at that level. Speed of 84, giving him 76-78-84. Son of Admiral Indy (cheapie son of A P Indy) so expectations limited. He seems to be a six-furlong guy. Winners of AN1X allowances, next rung up, were running 90 and 91 today, so he will need to continue to improve.

Nail Endangering, 3-year-old. won her first allowance today, a pricey $36.6 one but in a weak field, running only a 71. Need to find more weak fields, I guess.

Gold River finally won his N2X. Only a 94 though. Think will be used in breeding, with a turfy sire.

Idea Sal blew away the field in his first claimer, running an 86. No doubt I will lose him, but except for one 93, 86 has been his top, so I can live with it.

Disappointments from Napkin Kicking and Dan's Forest, along with Ernie Disorder, who I put in a claimer. I am going to try the stamina-building exercise with Napkin Kicking, though. He must get some stamina somehow, or his career will soon be over.

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 14:02

I just realized that Rich Wine ran a 104.9 in her 6.5f win. Hopefully she'll be my next Hero Grub!

As far as rest, I do think it depends on the horse. Hero Grub had consecutive 100+ races and I thought I would give her an extra week. Ran her at one of her favorite distances and she ran much slower. Was it the extra week of rest? I'm going back to running her every 2 weeks.

To build stamina, I have decided to use a slow approach. Increment at .5 or 1 increments. One approach I'm trying is to increase .5 for two weeks and then back off .5 the next week. Another approach is too increase (beyond expected preference) only once every few weeks. I think try to jump from 8f to 12f in one hop is a big mistake.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 14:07

In case you're wondering about start% this week for Sixth Deputy, I went back to jockey select. He started out a 54%.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 19:52

A little quick breeding for toral6. Last DS for The Minstrel, last DDS for Conquistador cielo, so

RUSTY SCABBARD NOW

Valid Expectations x The Minstrel x Conquistador Cielo.
385 points I think. Only need to blow another 365 in this stable.

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 20:05

How can you breed, my stables haven't even been updated yet. Crazy updating message has been flashing all afternoon. I log and and check later and same thing.

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 20:08

My stables haven't been updated either but breeding goes ahead anyway, apparently. I've been waiting for the claim results all day.

Toral

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 20:10

For some reason I thought you couldn't breed during an update, but I guess I'm wrong. I know I can't change my riding options right now.

Does it normally take this long? Seems like the thing is stuck.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Sat, Apr 06, 2002, 20:10

You can always submit breedings. If you are trying to breed over a horse you don't have, then you simply don't lose the breeding points.

Like you guys, I've been dreading stable updates all day. I way that new 2 year old, but I'm am VERY worried about how much cash I'm going to have in rotciv stables . . . Plus, I have a feeling I got killed on claimers this week.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Sun, Apr 07, 2002, 00:36

STABLE UPDATES just happened . . .

The deal with rotciv was the worst-case scenario -- the losing $300K bet was processed first. I took a last minute gamble and put $27,500 on #7 in that same race. I figured I would have about $30K in the stable by that time, so this was a MAJOR bet. Of course, it paid off, and I'm up to $180K. Geeeez.

Otherwise, I lost Paul's Beats as expected. I also did NOT win a single horse in claiming. AAARGH. This is getting ridiculous. I haven't been able to get a decent claimer since I don't know when. Pretty soon, the only two horses I'll have eligible for starters are my own discount breeders.

Madman
ID: 35316313
Sun, Apr 07, 2002, 00:42

BTW, we engaged in major over-kill with that bet, cab. Going to have to go back and figure out where the calcs went wrong.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sun, Apr 07, 2002, 01:03

The Gurupie stable picked up 2 horses in claimers. Velvet Afternoon and Groom Race. Not sure what I was looking at in that first one, IIRC it was something he did as a 2yo way back when. Groom Race on the other hand is King of Kings (ire) x Blushing groom(fr). Looking at breeding with him to finish off the breeding pts.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 5232363
Sun, Apr 07, 2002, 01:16

2 injured horses in my stlcards1 stable. bummer.

cab
Donor
ID: 10318622
Sun, Apr 07, 2002, 01:37

5 wins from 11 races..Wow...A training coup!..Congrats

LOL...Yes we did Madman...I know where the flaw is though....The winner was at "supposed" odds of 5/1...The odds on the result page say odds of $5.60 or 11/2...I am now convinced that you get your betting stake back if you win(which is included in the payout($13.30 in this case)...For some reason the payout is nearly always more than the actual odds...I don't really know how that can be fixed because with that formula you can only work with the odds you have in front of you(unless you "guess" to a certain extent)...

Great run by Sixth Deputy STL...A stakes run in the offering after the Ironman series is over perhaps?...

Only 2 winners and a few places for me today...

Craw Chop continued his run of good form by winning a 10f starter...He's turning into a handy claim..

Mr Bert broke his maiden in a claim race..

A couple of other notable performances:

Bee stacking ran a 106 in a stakes race at WA,grabbing second place...I really thought he was overmatched in this race and didn't really want to enter him but there were no other suitable races...I really must try him past 9.5f sometime...

Parade Shooting ran second in a 16f event posting a 95sp...

Overall 15 races...2w/3p/1s

Madman
ID: 35316313
Sun, Apr 07, 2002, 03:11

Cab I think the method also double-counts the actual amount bet. Thus, a revised estimate would be . . .

5 is at 4/1=> 5/1
7 is at 5/1 => 6/1
1 is at 12/1 => 13/1

Bet A (BxC) = 78 x 5 => return of $390 if win.
Bet B (AxC) = 65 x 6 => return of $390 if win.
Bet C (AxB) = 30 x 13 => return of $390 if win.

Total bet: 173.
Total profit: 217.

To turn the $217 profit into $500,000, multiply bets by $500,000/217 = 2304.

WHICH implies . . .
Bet A = $179,712
Bet B = $149,760
Bet C = $69,120
----------------
$398,592

Or, $240K less than what we outlayed :)

To check . . . Bet B ended up winning . . . at $13.30 for a $2 bet, total bet returned would have been $995,904. Given our almost $400,000 in outlays, however, this means we would have turned a net profit of about $595,000 . . .

HOWEVER, as you noted, odds of 5/1 simply mean that the PAYOUT for a $2 bet will be at least $12.00, but less than $14.00 (which would be 6/1).

THEREFORE, worse case scenario would have been that we got a $12.00 payout for a $2 bet. Which would mean that Bet B would have returned $898,560.

Given our outlays in betting $ of $398,592, this means we would almost EXACTLY have won our mandatory $500K!!!!!!!!!
----------------------------
SUMMARY

There were two things we were missing. First, use the total RETURN on a $1 bet in the first stage of the calculation -- not the odds. The 4/1 odds simply means a $4 profit for a $1 outlay. Since we would also get our money back, we need to change that to 5/1.

Second, the stated odds are the MINIMUM guaranteed return. This is the part that you noted.

NOW, LET'S HOPE THERE'S ANOTHER BET LIKE THIS NEXT WEEK!!!!! :)

cab
Donor
ID: 10318622
Sun, Apr 07, 2002, 06:56

That first line should've read:
Congrats Toral!

In respect to the stamina building exercise...I don't know if this is significant but after i gave up on Clam in stakes races i started running him in starter allowances,anything from 8f-14f...He was getting itm finishes most of the time so it was okay...His sp numbers were down however...After that sequence of races(about 6 or so) i bought him back to sprint/short routes and he has thrived,going 97(1st,6.5f),102(2nd,7.5f)and 107(1st,8f)in his last 3 starts...It may be just a coincidence and he has decided that he will step up another level? or maybe those longer races have helped?

That's looking a lot better Madman...If those numbers were rounded off to compensate for the dollar or so extra it pays(179712 to 175k for eg)it would be close enough for me :)

Madman
ID: 35316313
Sun, Apr 07, 2002, 12:35

cab if those longer races were the reason he was doing better, what happened in 1243?

My guess is that a) he's improving because of age/experience, and b) 1341.4415 may have been a good race for him, anyway (i.e., got a good roll of the dice that day).

cab
Donor
ID: 10318622
Sun, Apr 07, 2002, 13:51

He never had enough gas?...I honestly don't know...At that particular time in his career , it was the second fastest time he had run though...I'm not saying it's any great training feat...Maybe it was!(inadvertantly)....It may be pure coincidence or like you say , it is age/experience/luck or whatever...At the time , i put him in those races because there were easy bp's to be had(for the most part)...It could be that , it is the form cycle rolling around?(if there is such a thing)...

Forum: slamPage 562Subject: SSHR - 1355

Forum: slam
Page 562
Subject: SSHR - 1355