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Subject: OT - Terrorist attack on US Part II
Posted by: WiddleAvi
- [9830119] Tue, Sep 11, 13:29
Just because the other thread is very big |
Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well.
[Lengthy or complex threads may require a slight delay before updating.] |
| 166 | azdbacker
Donor
ID: 51392423
Tue, Sep 11, 17:18
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Explosions in Kabul not necessarily from US. Kabul has been the center of a civil war for some time. Wouldn't even put it past Bin Laden to do it himself for PR reasons. Explosions were termed 'not typical' of normal fighting, however.
PD - while you disagree with sarge's position, he has not in any way shown himself to be uneducated - just differing in opinion. The fact that the 2 of you see the same events differently does not necessarily make him, or you, uneducated. You just have different perspectives of the events in question. I would not be so hasty to by condescending/devisive at a time like this. I think the conversation, if necessary, needs to allow for discussion of varying opinions without personal attacks.
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| 167 | J
Sustainer
ID: 34451212
Tue, Sep 11, 17:20
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man, first this, now I hear stamps are going up to 37 cents next year!
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| 168 | azdbacker
Donor
ID: 51392423
Tue, Sep 11, 17:22
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And many would question - like they would with the events discussed - whether or not this is would be a 'shoot first' response. There is plenty out there to indicate that Bin Laden is involved. And we, as citizens, likely know very little of it. But when someone is on record saying, "It is the duty of any Muslim to kill Americans", and when his representatives have said today over private airwaves, "We hit 2 targets" (acoording to Orren Hatch), I think there may be enough evidence to attack.
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| 169 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 38728300
Tue, Sep 11, 17:23
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adz, you're right, of course. I'm guilty of the same thing I'm accusing sarge of doing.
sarge, my sincere apologies. I think we actually agree on what should be done to those responsible. We differ on the process, however.
Trying to confirm US responses, but not finding too much solid information.
pd
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| 170 | GoatLocker
ID: 44461114
Tue, Sep 11, 17:25
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An act of war.
I keep hearing this and questioning the thought process.
If it is an act of war, who do you declare war against.
Only answer I have is every terrorist group world-wide.
Take out the leaders of every terrorist group and see what that does.
I know that my statements will not bode well with everybody, but that will get their attention.
Cliff
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| 171 | azdbacker
Donor
ID: 51392423
Tue, Sep 11, 17:25
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Don't know if this is new news or not, but all Capitol Hill buildings have been evacuated and DC is in a 'State of Emergency'.
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| 172 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Tue, Sep 11, 17:27
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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Explosions lit up the night sky in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), CNN reported on Tuesday.
The Cable News Network showed footage of a series of flashes and flames in the Afghan capital.
``There are missiles flying across the city ... apparently large incoming missiles,'' a CNN reporter said.
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| 173 | azdbacker
Donor
ID: 51392423
Tue, Sep 11, 17:28
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Perm Dude, you've restored my respect for you. ;)
We all (mostly) want the same conclusion. No need to be overly divisive, particularly today. Maybe next week, maybe come election time - but not today.
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| 174 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Tue, Sep 11, 17:30
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Well said Dbacker.
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| 175 | GoatLocker
ID: 44461114
Tue, Sep 11, 17:32
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Good comment azdbacker.
PD, ditto what azdbacker said.
Cliff
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| 176 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Tue, Sep 11, 17:32
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I vote azd for an ambassadorship. Nice piece of work guy.
PD-by no means do I intend to imply/question yours or anyone elses patriotism. I just 'know' from experience, these things (international terrorists) grow head after head after head. Never seeming to die. Only way out, is as per The Red Brigade in Germany in the 70's....coordinated, deliberate, massive manhunt/retaliation thereby eliminating the organization. New ones will always sprout up, but they will take time to become the type of terrorist force Bin Ladin has created. We dont eliminate terrorism by eliminating Bin LAdin, but we do slow it down..ALOT.
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| 177 | azdbacker
Donor
ID: 51392423
Tue, Sep 11, 17:32
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Explosions 'not part of a US attack' according to Wolf Blitzer. Not sure who his source was.
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| 178 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Tue, Sep 11, 17:32
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CNN Reports that the attacks in Afghanistan ARE NOT, repeat NOT, part of an American retaliation. The White House is insisting that the attacks are part of an ongoing civil war in the area.
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| 179 | GoatLocker
ID: 44461114
Tue, Sep 11, 17:33
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Sarge 176,
Better job of saying what I was trying to say in 170.
Cliff
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| 180 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Tue, Sep 11, 17:34
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Civil War has been active in Afghanistan for qquite some time. I cant recall the names of the two factions, but the leadership of one was bombed yesterday and there have been conflicting reports on his status ever since. Most likely, the explosions in Khabal are retaliatory strikes from that faction for yesterdays bombing attack upon their leadership.
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| 181 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 417433018
Tue, Sep 11, 17:34
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Goatlocker, I tend to agree. I have not read all of these posts and there is no way I can now, but I think back to Reagan and attacking Khadafi, killing some of his family members in the attacks. Direct hits on terrorist leaders themselves are effective.
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| 182 | Special K
ID: 388171019
Tue, Sep 11, 17:35
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CNN just showed some Amateur video of the 2nd plane crashing into the wtc building. It was a perfect angle, and it was just...god can't even describe it.
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| 183 | GoatLocker
ID: 44461114
Tue, Sep 11, 17:35
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It is way to early for US retaliation.
Any retaliation will take two to three days to put together and make happen.
Trust me on this one, I know it for fact.
Cliff
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| 184 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Tue, Sep 11, 17:38
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absolutely correct Goat. 24 hrs or so to even select the target. Then figure 12 hrs minimum to determine asset requirements. 24 more to plan the flight paths (assuming an air strike obviously). Then brief your pilots, allow your flight leader to do his job...Minimum...72 hours. No probable strikes by our military until I'd guess at Fri at the earliest. (Unless our govt is in possession of intel which has given them a 'heads up' but not sufficient data to determine what/where/when the attack was coming)
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| 185 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Tue, Sep 11, 17:39
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btw PD---you NEVER have to apologize to me for holding your ground on a position. It's one of your fundamental rights my friend.
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| 186 | Texas Flood
Donor
ID: 12458220
Tue, Sep 11, 17:42
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as far as declaring war i think we should start with the "laughing muslims" as seen on CNN. personally i would like to see these sub human rat bastards turned into a pile of charred flesh as soon as possible. grease em all!!!!
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| 187 | James K Polk
ID: 355352418
Tue, Sep 11, 17:55
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I've been busy as hell this morning with all this going on -- special section, etc. -- and this is the first time I've been able to look at the boards. Only have a second, but wanted to say to walk how glad I was to see your posts in the first thread. That's what I logged in to look for.
Hope all other NYC-area gurupies are OK as well, of course.
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| 188 | GoatLocker
ID: 44461114
Tue, Sep 11, 17:57
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Mr. Pres.
Looks like all of the New Yorkers have checked in.
Cliff
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| 189 | James K Polk
ID: 355352418
Tue, Sep 11, 18:00
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That's awesome. Very relieved to hear that. Thanks GoatLocker.
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| 190 | Piccolos
ID: 54828116
Tue, Sep 11, 18:01
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The Taliban group has claimed responsibility for the attacks in Kabul and he says there are more to come. This is utterly disgusting.
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| 191 | azdbacker
Donor
ID: 51392423
Tue, Sep 11, 18:02
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Can't imagine what it's like to live in a country where you can make a statement like "Oh, those were just typical 2am explosions. No biggie." The rarity of events like today is another reason to feel blessed to be an American. (Or Canadian, etc..)
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| 192 | azdbacker
Donor
ID: 51392423
Tue, Sep 11, 18:04
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There will be no flights until a minimum of 12 noon tomorrow. Other reports say that flights may be delayed 'indefinitely'.
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| 193 | Eat Acid
ID: 46759271
Tue, Sep 11, 18:07
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What about KB? Forgive me if I missed him in thread one, pretty sure he's from NY.
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| 194 | wildyams/katietx
ID: 3483513
Tue, Sep 11, 18:08
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Bilirubin...I'm going to take exception to this.
as quoted "Creating martyrs only makes the world a MORE dangerous place, not a less dangerous one."
The bleeding heart liberal anti-death penalty folks cried over Timothy McVeigh being executed. Then there were those that said it would only serve to make him a martyr and induce other acts of its kind. I don't see that that has happened. I believe that McVeigh will fade into obscurity...so much like Idi Amin, et al.
As far as the military training is concerned. One question...have you served? I have not actually worn the uniform, but spent the first 19 years of my life in the AF. Overseas for quite a bit of it and in a country where terrorism against Americans was the rule-North Africa. In fact, there were many times that the Arabs wanted to make their point by shooting at the school busses as they carried military personnel to school. Brave act, yes? Having been in direct contact with 2 people who had the highest of security clearances (my mother worked at the CIA), I can tell you there are many, many things that the general public is not privy to. Anti-terrorism training involves dealing with those who do not fight "fair." So, what do we fight those people with? Words? Peace accords? Chocolate cake and a glass of milk?
In this instance force must be met with force. Any country (as stated in an earlier thread) that harbors a terrorist group, should be treated as a perpetrator. Is the person involved in a bank robbery where a police officer(s) killed not as culpable as the actual shooter? The same goes here.
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| 195 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Tue, Sep 11, 18:10
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lmao Mr Khaddafi (sp?) has just called upon the Muslim world to support the Americans in this tragic day. Wonder how worried he is that we might hold some piece of data giving us reason to believe Libya had even some small minuscule part in this?)
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| 196 | wildyams/katietx
ID: 3483513
Tue, Sep 11, 18:11
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re post 167....what an a**hole
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| 197 | wildyams/katietx
ID: 3483513
Tue, Sep 11, 18:13
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Cliff....#170...I agree with you...that's 1!
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| 198 | GoatLocker
ID: 44461114
Tue, Sep 11, 18:14
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Good post katietx.
It really goes deeper than that, but I'm just not up to trying to write about it right now.
Suffice to say that a lot goes on that the general public will never ever know about.
I'm working real hard at trying to control my thoughts right now, might be harder to do in the next couple of days after we get word out of the Pentagon.
Cliff
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| 199 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Tue, Sep 11, 18:19
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dont I know what you're saying (and trying so hard not to say *S*).
As angry as I am now, (as if noone could tell), I'll gaurantee you that once a day or two has passed, and calm rationale thought processes are fully restored, the anger will only multiply. Looking at the pure criminality of the act, the utter heartlessness and absolute self-righteousness that such an act would require, is beyond anything I've ever attempted to seriously comprehend. Then add to that, the surely inevitable news broadcasts showing select Muslim populations as actually rejoicing...and the desire to watch someone very specific as he writhes in agony from a well placed bullet, will become almost a therapeutic concept.
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| 200 | azdbacker
Donor
ID: 51392423
Tue, Sep 11, 18:19
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katietx, some people deal with tragedy by attempting humor. I'm assuming that's what J was doing, and it's the only reason I haven't exploded at The Left Wings for the most ignorant and heartless post ever on these boards. I have to assume it was just a weak attempt at humor, because i couldn't imagine someone making a post like that in seriousness.
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| 201 | J
Sustainer
ID: 34451212
Tue, Sep 11, 18:26
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excuse me, wildyams/katietx: did I offend you in some way?
On the front page of today's Atlanta newspaper, is
1) The bombing of course
2) Post Office announces stamps will be increasing from 34 cents to 37 cents next year
3) McDonalds monopoly scam.
I have family in NY, I have family in DC. I'm deeply troubled by everything thats happened today and my prayers go out to all involved.
Can you please enlighten me as to how I'm an a$$hole again?
Thanks,
J
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| 202 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Tue, Sep 11, 18:32
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J...katie just went to a function, so she isnt here to respond to you. However, she doesnt take take kindly to 'making light' when a significant event has occured. She couldnt tell from your referenced post, whether you were seriously upset about that news or not and given the comparative news of which we are all too aware, she felt the comment to be disrespectful.
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| 203 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Tue, Sep 11, 18:32
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Wild/Katie - No, I haven't served in the military. Am I now not allowed to state my opinion?
Please keep my comments in context:
Sarge:
Fact: We go in 'tomorrow' and take him...it wont happen again.
Bili:
The 4th is so far from "Fact" as to be naive, no matter how much "intel" you have been privy to.
Creating martyrs only makes the world a MORE dangerous place, not a less dangerous one.
-------
Exactly what do you take exception to? Do you disagree with me and think killing Bin Laden will forever stop terrorist acts? Do you disagree with me and say that making martyrs will make this work safer?
You go off on a tangent and make assumptions about my beliefs that I never stated (and don't hold). You assume that I don't think we should kill, or least bring to justice, Bin Laden if we determine he is behind the bombing of the trade center. You would be wrong.
The last time the trade center was bombed, I was almost killed. I think that equals your army brat story (of which I was one as well).
All I was doing was correcting Sarge. He stated things as facts that weren't facts. In fact, they were the opposite. All I did was call him on it, and I haven't seen him defend them.
Why don't you reread the thread and get YOUR facts straight.
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| 204 | GoatLocker
ID: 44461114
Tue, Sep 11, 18:33
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Sarge,
The kicker is that my entire mental state will change one way or the other when I find out the status of close friends at the Pentagon.
Cliff
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| 205 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 46818119
Tue, Sep 11, 18:34
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J was making an attempt at humor, I'm sure. Let's not make him a target too.
katiex, while I admire your sentiments (and echo many of them myself), this is not about those who believed that McVeigh should not have been executed. (FWIW, I believed McVeigh should not have been allowed to be a coward and should have had to pay a real price for his crime.)
The House Speaker just finished, and as he pointed out everyone, Dem and Rep are "shoulder to shoulder" on this one.
pd
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| 206 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Tue, Sep 11, 18:39
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biliruben...
The reason for my stating those 4 points as 'FACTS" are many fold. First and foremost, you need to understand what is required for a terrorist organization to even begin, let alone thrive. It takes a very 'special' kind of leadership. A combination of charisma and sophistication which comes along in combination, in one person, with great infrequency. Bin Ladin is such a man. There are few, VERY few like him. Add then, his incredibly sharp intellect. (Yes, whatever else he may be, Bin Ladin IS an extraordinarily intelligent man.) Incredibly few terrorist leaders could have evn conceived of this attack. Fewer still, could have begun to gather the slightest amount of the resources required to execute the attack, and even fewer yet, would have the charisma to gain the correct following to allow for the attacks attempt. All 3 things taken into consideration, have to exist in one person, coupled with patience (not a terrorists strong suite), coupled with a few other intangibles. Hence, I say that IF we had taken Bin Ladin 3 years ago, this attack would not have occured. Why not? The single leader capable of getting the job done, would be gone. The same logic or extension of reasoning, applies to why I maintain #4 is also fact.
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| 207 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Tue, Sep 11, 18:41
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absolutely Cliff and my best goes out to you, them and their respective families. email me if you'd care to and I'll give you my ph nr. anytime you feel a need to talk, just give me a holler. Sorta 'been there done that' if you know what I mean.
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| 208 | azdbacker
Donor
ID: 51392423
Tue, Sep 11, 18:42
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"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with the truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness."
We as a nation must stand against these 'rulers of the darkness of this world'. In order to do so, we must have truth and righteousness on our side. Once we know the truth, we can act with righteousness and power as a nation to stand against those who are responsible.
My prayers go out to those that suffered and died this horrible day, and those who have had their sense of safety and security stolen today. We as a nation must stand together.
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| 209 | azdbacker
Donor
ID: 51392423
Tue, Sep 11, 18:44
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According to CNN, at least half of the 400 or so firemen originally sent out to the WTC are presumed dead.
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| 210 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 46818119
Tue, Sep 11, 18:49
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Just started a new thread since this is getting so long.
pd
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| 211 | letter j
ID: 265101412
Tue, Sep 11, 18:50
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Not that I believe that Bin Laden is not responsible.
However, as a Canadian, our Country in the last ten years has seen far too many travesties of justice (Marshall, Millgaard, Morin, Michaud, etc.) to jump the gun and convict before some proof.
Sarge does make some good points, however.
The proof's in the puddin'. When there's proof, I say : kick his a**. Until then, wait and see.
letter j
And not as an afterthought, but my heart goes out to all touched by this heinous act. Truly disgusting and cowardly whoever is responsible.
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| 212 | Pearl St. Punisher
ID: 56161114
Tue, Sep 11, 18:52
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The World, as we know it, will never be the same after today's events. No matter who you are, your life is affected. It will be felt in your immediate life for the next year or so, and the ripples will go on into history. My heart goes out to everyone in America, especially the victims.
-Punisher
on the most focked up day in American, and possibly World history.
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| 213 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Tue, Sep 11, 18:59
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Sarge - I agree with you. #3 likely is true, but short of a fact. Even with little smarts, alot of luck and a few exacto knives, I could see a few extremists getting the job done (at least regarding one plane and one tower), regardless of the backing.
Regarding #4 - There will always be extremist nutcases in the world. I agree that the combination of charisma, smarts and money adds Bin Laden to a higher level of nutcase. I think the world situation has be taken into account at the same time, however. Extremists will always be around, but they are usually impotent, because they don't have followers. Only when the moderate positions in society are shown to be fruitless and untenable, and people are unable to envision an acceptable life within the structure of the society they have been born into, do they turn to the followers of the extremists. Certainly his money and charisma give him an extra advantage in recruiting those who have a feeling of powerlessness and desperation when they consider to world around them.
I think you are right in some respects. If we remove Bin Laden and his millions from the equation, we will remove, for the short-term, the ability for someone to wreak the kind of havoc we have seen today.
But the moderate position - to work within the system - is still considered to be untenable for many Islamic peoples. That's where we should try and change things. Not just keep killing the nutcases, because that is a never ending job.
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| 214 | Jay-P
ID: 47132140
Tue, Sep 11, 19:00
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I haven't been around these boards in a long time, but due to the severity of this sick and heinous act of violence on innocent civilians at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, I would just like to say that my thoughts and prayers are with any Gurupie in the New York and Washington, DC areas as well as anyone here with friends and family members that work at the World Trade Center.
This is truly a sad day in history and to echo the words of former President Franklin D. Roosevelt after Pearl Harbour, "This day will live in Infamy!"
Despite the cruel and utterly deplorable nature of the incident or actually these incidents today, I disagree with post #194 in that fighting force with force should only be applicable to those responsible for this cowardly attack.
Two wrongs do not necessarily make a right, so if the United States were to take a hard line approach and counter-attack on innocent civilians, it would serve no purpose other than glorifying this act, and by sinking to the same level of these terrorists show nothing to me other than condoning horrid attacks on innocent people.
Don't get me wrong, those responsible for this act should be hunted down and killed and completely and thoroughly punished for their actions, but the counter-attack measures should be limited to taking out the terrorist group and doing minimal, if any damage to the civilians in the nation responsible.
In either case, the best response would be to first figure out exactly who is responsible for this act, be it the Taliban's in Afghanistan or a Palestinian group before taking swift action to bring justice to those who perpetrated this vile act.
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| 215 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Tue, Sep 11, 19:13
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the keyword, which continues to creep into many of these posts, is...extremists. Katie and I have fundamentally differing political views. (believe it or not...*S* I'm the 'liberal' one) It's not conservatives I fear...its EXTREMIST conservatives and extremist liberals as well, as it pertains to our internal system of government. World population is the same, just larger numbers. I hold no fear of the masses who believe differently than I. I hold some degree of trepidation of the extremists who agree with me, and I geuinely fear the results of the extremists who disagree with me. (I say 'me', but in terms of today I refer to the collective 'me' as an American.)
To scale it back and put it into perspective, lets talk about our own govt for a moment. Makes no difference whether you personally are a Republican or a Democrat or even a Socialist. Imagine, if one party (other than the one you are a member of) got control of BOTH the Legislature AND the Whitehouse. Would you not fear for your personal value system and beliefs? I'd think you would have to. Now, expand that outward. Make it a world governing body. Then (to obtain the true perspective) Assume we now have a worldwide effort to overthrow that govt, by an extremist group. THAT is essentially what terrorism is. The simple position is this: Either you believe as I do, or you are Satan and will die 1,000 times. That truly is there position when boiled down to its simplest terms. Since they firmly believe, that they are doing GODS work...all means justify the end. Since that is the means they employ, that is the only means to combat them as well. You cannot stop an armed robbery with a water pistol, nor can you stop an armed terrorist with logic and appeals of compassion. None on this earth are more passionate than a terrorist. This is basically why I advocate the use of force. Excessive force even. Partly to make a statement, and partly to protect our members of that same force. Our military leadership (political also) did right during the Gulf War. They did not commit ground troops, until we had an overwhelming presence of force. I cannot begin to surmise just how many American lives this decision saved. The same method must hold true when we deal with terrorists. if we believe a squad of 8 is sufficient to take down the site, then we need to use 16. Ensure destruction of the site, and so quickly that our own face little risk of effective return fire. Hence, my cry for total retaliation, total use of force, and the absolute destruction of the single most dangerous man on the planet today...Bin Ladin.
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