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Subject: Yanks Get Matsui
Posted by: Whitey
- Sustainer [47130129] Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 12:22
ESPN is reporting a 3 year deal worth 21 mil
Godzilla coming to US |
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| 93 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 19:22
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Funny thing about sports, why would any franchise willingly help the "evil empire" out by taking salary and old, old players? Its like, why would anyone trade the Lakers some young players to help revitalize them. Let them struggle with their mistakes like everyone else.
Sorry for the "evil empire" quote, that one still cracks me up, the Boston management calling the kettle black.
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| 95 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 19:57
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Emperor Palpatine felt his Evil Empire would be able to compete with Steinbrenner's this year, but Darth Maul went down with an arm injury and Brian Cashman outbid that sneaky Senator guy with the dark hood and signed ace right-hander Darth Vader to a deal reportedly worth $30 million over a 3-prequel period.
Vader is projected to be the Yankee's 11th starter after they pick up Javier Vazquez and Bartolo Colon.
Yoda was unsuccessfully trying to commit ritual suicide with his little muppet cane and was unavailable for comment.
In a related story, the A's signed OPS sinkhole Chris Singleton to a 1-year deal, proving conclusively that it's Not "Always the Yankees."
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| 96 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 20:04
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No, the A's got Tejada the same way the yankees got Bernie Williams. Not from a previous professional league.
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| 97 | Rogue Nine
ID: 5002726
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 20:49
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I give the Yanks credit for finding Soriano. Nobody wanted him the first time he became eligible for the draft, and they found him in the Japanese league and signed him for a relatively modest 2.5 million. (Still alot IMHO, but not so much that other teams should have felt 'outbid' had they really had designs on him.)
This still doesn't take away from the fact that the Yanks have 8 starting pitchers. Yes, some teams have arms in the pen who can theoretically start, but the Yanks have 8 pitchers who could all be #2 or #3 SP's on other teams. (Maybe not Hitchcock, but I can see him being a #3 or #4 on a weaker team.)
#92, that just makes it worse. They don't like the money/quality ratio they're getting from El-Duque and a couple others, so they sign better pitchers to more expensive deals and then find a way to dump the guys they don't like. How many teams in the league can do that?
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| 98 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 21:00
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Tejada was signed by the A's in '93 as an undrafted free agent. His first major-league deal was for $150,000 in 1997. He made $3.6 million last year.
Soriano signed with the Hiroshima Toyo Carp in 1994, retired from the Japanese Central League in 1998 and was subsequently signed by the Yanks as a free agent.
Alfonso's first major leage deal was for $630,000 which was also his 2002 salary, a show of fiscal responsibility which allowed The Thrifty Boss to focus on signing the Tiger's ace, the WhiteSox ace, the Padre's ace, the Blue Jay's starting right fielder, the Cub's starting center fielder, the D-Ray's starting center fielder, the Giant's starting right fielder, the Met's starting 3rd baseman, the A's starting 1st baseman, and the Michigan Wolverine's starting quarterback.
All without cutting the pay of the Oriole's ace and the Cuban National Team's ace (unless Contreras is better than El Duque and Adrian Hernandez, which is of course a story for The Year of the Godzilla).
In all fairness, The Boss only spent $44 million retaining farm products Jeter, Williams, Petitte, and Posada.
The fact that they all used to play in Columbus proves conclusively that it's not about the money.
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| 100 | Rogue Nine
ID: 5002726
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 21:55
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Sorry wiggs, but you just don't get it. The Yankees spend and spend, and it bugs the hell out of us. Simple as that. You take the top FA every year, and nobody else really has a shot at them.
You're able to keep all of your developed talent, while teams like the A's are forced to lose theirs. (Just think what their lineup would be like with Giambi, instead of Hatteberg in it.)
Are we bitter about it? Probably. But you've never had to watch your team dismantle or trade/lose its star players, so you just don't know what it feels like. We have a right to be bitter. You on the other hand even get to be optimistic each off-season, as you scan the available FA's and ponder which ones you'll get. Must be nice.
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| 102 | Rogue Nine
ID: 5002726
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 22:03
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I'm just trying to explain why the Yankees make us bitter.
Actually, its not just the Yankees. I'm bitter at the Red Sox for stealing Pedro from my Spos, and now they're likely to take Colon too. I'm bitter at the Rockies for taking Larry Walker away from us. And LA for taking Shawn Green away from Toronto, and giving them deadbeat Mondesi in return. And on and on...
The Yankees are just the biggest goon in a sport of goons. And I hate goons...
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| 103 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 22:05
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Is a yankee hater anyone who doesn't express anything but blind love for them?
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| 106 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Fri, Jan 03, 2003, 22:47
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The Yanks drafted Henson in 1998, then traded him for the Red's ace / Yankee's 5th starter in 2000. They got Drew back in the Wily Mo Pena deal of 2001, then signed him to a 6 year 17 million dollar minor league contract, enabling him to pay off those pesky college loans a few years early, as well as letting him go dutch with his roomate for a Gameboy to make those long AAA bus rides a little more tolerable.
You're absolutely right about Rondy White ($4.5 million / year). He was the Cubs starting left fielder. I stand corrected.
D-Rays starting CF - I was thinking of Gerald Williams ($2 million / year), who the Rays cut in mid-season 2001 to make way for Jason Tyner ($250k / year). In a rare spending move, the Yanks picked up his contract for the rest of the season, and carried him until his June 2002 release.
John VanderWal ($1.85 million / year) had 452 ab in 2001, split between Pittsburgh and then SanFran. He came over in 2002 for Jay Witasick ($1.2 million).
Ventura ($8.5 million) came over for Justice ($7 million).
The A's failed to sign Giambi ($10.4 million / year) and instead played Scott Hatteberg at 1b ($900k / year).
Weaver ($2.35 million / year) came over in a 3-way deal in which the Yanks moved Ted Lilly ($237k / year).
Wells took a huge paycut ($9.25 million -w- ChiSox in '01 to $2.25 in '02), enabling the Yankees to fill their need for a 7th guy who could either spot relieve or pitch 200 ace-quality innings, depending on how you want to use him. (I use this description in acknowledgement of the fact that you quite rightly take exception to the misnomer "7th starter.")
And you're right about Hitchcock ($4.9 million / year) and Mondesi ($11 million / year). Their teams couldn't afford them.
I agree when you take exception to the "it's always the Yankees" generalization. A more fair assessment would be: "It's always the Yankees when they want somebody. If they don't want somebody, then it's okay for another team to sign them."
You brought up perfect examples with Thome, Millwood, and Glavine.
The Yankees already have two left-handed power-hitting 1st basemen, and only one first base (despite attempts to purchase another one to ease crowding at the position); so Thome doesn't draw a Yankee bid.
The Yankees already have eight(!) pitchers who can either spot relieve or give you 200 ace-quality innings depending on how you want to use them, so the NL is permitted to get Glavine and Millwood.
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| 107 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 15:49
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Thats pretty damn weak wiggs, removing all your posts. It was a pretty interesting conversation.
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| 108 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 16:49
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it was everyone against, yeah, that was alot of fun
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| 109 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 17:01
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what pushed me over the edge was airsteve bringing up stupid signings like vanderwal, white, gerald williams. That is totally ridiculous. I dont understand the complaints of the ventura justice trade. The Mets didnt need Ventura when they just went out an signed the top 2nd base FA in Robby Alomar and they knew they were moving Alfonzo to 3rd base. why would they hold Ventura as a sub when there is no DH in the NL. Gerald Williams was released the yanks didnt steal him from anyone. It is just turning into a youngbuck circus and I dont want to be involved in it anymore.
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| 110 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 18:15
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I'm glad you removed the posts. Hopefully it will serve as a remind to everyone to think before you speak.
The Yankees signed Gerald Williams. Period. Why would you spend money on a 5th outfielder. Is Gerald Williams likely to play better than Juan Rivera or Marcus Thames? Slightly, and because of the slight chance, the Yankees shelled out some cash. Some teams buy starting shortstops with that cash, but the Yankees bought what should have been a 6th or 7th outfielder. It's always the Yankees, whether it's Jason Giambi or Gerald Williams.
Same with Contreras. The Yankees rotation wasn't that bad. Clemens is a weathered ace (see Moyer, Jamie or Maddux, Greg), and Pettitte and Mussina are aces still in their late primes. That's 3 guys who could realistically start the All-Star Game in any given year. Wells (although he's getting old), Weaver, and El Duque are what we like to call 3rd starters. As with the late 80s mets, you can move two down a slot or two and have a 6th guy to spot start or relieve. And Hitchcock, well, that's just a salary they don't want helping some other team. So why would they even put a bid on the most coveted international player around there? If they'd spent two million of it to hire an expert to create more competitive balance, they'd have done more to help themselves in the future (by helping baseball) than signing Contreras ever could have.
Would it be fair if the Brewers got a 4th strike? The Yankees play by a different set of rules than all 29 other teams. If you can't see that, you shouldn't be posting here.
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| 111 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 18:22
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why is it a different set of rules? everyone has the same right to do what they need to do to win. quite your whining and support your team rather then bashing someone elses.
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| 112 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 18:23
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quite = quit
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| 113 | Madman
Donor
ID: 21020124
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 22:40
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Blue hen -- The Yankees play by a different set of rules than all 29 other teams.
Yep. Major League Baseball rules state very clearly that the Yankees are guaranteed monopoly rights in the largest media market in baseball. But because this rule is buried in the finer print of MLB ownership agreements, people sometimes forget all about it.
I wonder if people would still be talking about "free markets" and "they are just doing what everyone should be doing" if the rules of MLS were written more explicitly like: "The Yankees (and Mets) will be given the chance to win 50% more revenue than anyone else" . . .
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| 114 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sat, Jan 04, 2003, 23:23
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I'm not whining. Every time the Yanks do anything less than win the World Series, it's a victory for the system.
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| 115 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 7724916
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 00:13
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Rogue Nine Post #100 - Giambi and Mussina are the **ONLY** examples of the Yankees spending more than $40 million on a free agent in my memory. And I believe Mussina was not the highest dollar signing that year -- that honor belongs to the Rockies for Mike Hampton if I recall correctly. Did the Yankees sign Kevin Brown?
I can appreciate your bitterness, but commenting that the Yankees buy all of the top free agents is pure ignorance on your part.
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| 116 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 02:08
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Species 115...
As I recall, there's a player out there who got more than Hampton and Mussina put together that year.
I think the point was that the Yankees always go out of there way to sign superstars every year. While Mussina was not the BEST on the market, he is the ace stud that the Yankees wanted. Just like Giambi was.
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| 117 | quik_ag
ID: 556371723
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 03:22
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i think you guys are arguing in circles. it's not a level playing field. period. anybody, yankee fan or vehement yankee-hater, can see that the yankees have a significant advantage, gained through a combination of logic and location, in the system. but that's the way the system is set up. hate the game, not the playa. anybody who faults the yankees for their overspending is misdirecting their outrage. personally, i fault the anti-trust clause. i feel that a city like new york should be able to handle 5 or 6 mlb teams if 5 or 6 mlb teams want to play there. split the television market of the greater metropolitan area 5 ways and you're down to a houston-sized market share. even more extreme, i feel that the team hailing from a metropolitan area with 10 million people, and controlling probably 20% (just a guess) of all mlb fans around the world should have a competitive advantage. it's in the best interest of the sport. the (fictional) Manhattan, KS wildcats should not have an equal chance against the "other" Manhattan team. i should say the bronx, but there's no Bronx, KS.
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| 118 | Rogue Nine
ID: 100055
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 06:16
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Species Post #115 - I agree. Thats why in post 102 I mentioned that it really isn't just the Yankees that I'm pissed at. I'm pissed at any MLB team who ignorantly signed a player to a huge contract, thus pushing the ceiling for every other player even higher. Its definitely not just the Yankees who are at fault for that.
However, this thread was titled 'Yanks get Matsui' and it has been their behavior this off-season (when they had said they'd be trying to cut payroll) that made us focus on them. Nobody else has spent huge this year. (Except for Philly, but you can do that when you ditch half the payroll from the previous season.)
quik_ag, yes, its not really the Yankees fault that they have so much money to spend. But I really can't stand when a pro-Yankee person gets all incredulous when I mention that I'm bitter about it. My Spos get a 40$ million payroll, the Yankees get 150 mil$. Anyone with a brain can understand why I'm bitter. My team will never have a chance to win anything, and the Yankees will always have a chance every year. So just let me be bitter, its all I've got.
Anyone want to take bets on when the Yanks aquire their 9th starter? Colon/Vazquez anyone? :(
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| 119 | quik_ag
ID: 556371723
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 15:43
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Let's get right down to it. you're jealous of the angels, twins, and a's. ;-)
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| 120 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 7724916
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 16:41
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blue hen - but again your statement is gross hyperbole! To quote you: "the Yankees always go out of there way to sign superstars every year" - this is not true. While it is true they signed Mussina and Giambi in 2002.....then Contreras and Matsui this year, I challenge you to find them "going out of their way to sign superstars every year ".
Check out their free agent signing from 1995-2001. I highly doubt there was a single year that they signed the highest priced free agent. In fact, they signed only a handful of significant free agents during that entire period when the market for free agents started to skyrocket. Yes the re-signed many, but they didn't go out of their way to sign superstars, as you put it.
Believe me, I understand and admit to the Yankees' financial advantage.....I just vehemently disagree with the broad generalizations that are so often thrown the Yankees' way when it comes to how they have used that advantage. They have not "bought" Championships nor signed every free agent. Period.
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| 121 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 18:29
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Some Yankee free agent signings:
2002- Contreras, Matsui
2001- Giambi, Hitchcock, Karsay, David Wells, Rondell White
2000- Mussina
1999- Andy Morales (Cuban national team 3b, released the next year when they inked Drew Henson's big contract)
1998- El Duque
1997- Hideki Irabu, Chili Davis
1996- David Wells, Kenny Rogers
1995- David Cone
With no real effort made to judge whether these were Good signings or not; they're just some run of the mill multi-million dollar / year signings.
The list defers to the notion that re-signing a free agent who could've gone someplace else is intrinsically different than just plain signing a free agent who could've gone someplace else. Although I'm not 100% clear on why that's the case.
For comparison's sake, here's a complete combined, alphabetized and annotated list of the free-agent contracts worth over $2 million / year signed by the Reds, Rockies, Marlins, Twins, Expos, ChiSox, Astros, A's, Padres, D-Rays, and Blue Jays in 2001:
That's the whole list.
Nobody.
It's absolutely true that the Yankees haven't signed every free agent (not even close), nor the highest priced ones (somewhat closer).
Here's an AL top-5 salary snapshot from 1995-2001:
2001: no Yankees in top 5 AL salaries
2000: Bernie Williams #2, David Cone #3
1999: Bernie #3, Cone #4
1998: Bernie #3
1997: Cecil Fielder #2
1996: no Yankees in top 5 AL salaries
1995: no Yankees in top 5 AL salaries
Fielder got his ridiculous contract from the Tigers. Cone was a free agent signing. Bernie was a free agent re-signing. The Yankees signed him after Peter Angelos outbid them on Joey Belle (biggest contract 1998-2000, finally trumped by A-Rod).
So during the above 7 year period, the Yankees never had more than 40% of the players with salaries in the top 1% of the AL (neither did anyone else).
To avoid the blanket statement "The Yankees buy championships," it's probably better to say: "The Yankees spend more money than any other team, and win more championships than any other team. There is both correlation and intent, but thus far causality is unproven, and is a subject open to considerable argument."
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| 122 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 19:20
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My statement may have been hyperbole, but that accurately reflects the Yankee spending habits: over-inflated.
AirSteve provides a good list, so I'll talk about it a bit.
In 2002, it was Matsui and Contreras. Though unneeded, Contreras was the most highly sought free agent pitcher this season, other than Greg Maddux. I'd put him ahead of Jamie Moyer and Tom Glavine, and perhaps even Roger Clemens. And Matsui, while not the TOP RANKED hitter, has an image as an elite hitter. And he perfectly fills the Yankees weakest position (although wasn't Rondell an All-Star the year before he came? Vanderwal too?)
In 2001, it was Giambi. The Yankees "had to have him" as Tino got older. Plus they grossly overpaid for Karsay, and signed 3 former all stars.
In 2000, it was going to be ARod, but they would "only" shell out 20 million for him (later given to Jeter), so they had to "settle" for the best pitcher on the market, Mike Mussina.
In 1999, it was Morales. A big contract and they knew they'd be able to reneg later because he misrepresented his age. He was the only major signing this year because they won 114 games the year before and had a stable lineup that would win two more Serieses. Morales played the same position as the most recent Series MVP.
In 1998, it was Orlando Hernandez. Coming off 3 straight playoff years, all they needed was a pitcher and the highly touted brother of the World Series MVP was a good candidate. Plus they re-signed Bernie.
In 1997, they signed a multi-time all-star in Chili Davis, and the highly touted Japanese pitcher Hideki Irabu. Ho hum.
In 1996, they signed a pair of perfect game pitchers who had several all-star appearances. Again, ho hum.
In 1995, they signed David Cone. Actually, the Royals traded Cone to the Blue Jays for several minor leaguers (because they couldn't afford him), and the Jays traded him to the Yankees for several minor leaguers because THEY couldn't afford him. It's the same as a signing. And of course, Cone was the 1994 Cy Young winner, by definition the best pitcher in the AL.
See? Every year, the Yankees sign AT A MINIMUM a multi-time all-star and highly touted international prospect. Is that good enough for you?
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| 123 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 19:25
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ok, i know they yanks spend alot, but go through some other teams, ex how about the mets. Glavine this year floyd this year, alomar last year, piazza a couple years ago, olerud a few years ago, mo vaughn i think last year, cedeno last year, I know there are alot more but that is just a short list.
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| 124 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 19:27
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also add leiter, and Astacio to that list. It is easier for teams in big markets to spend more money.
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| 125 | beebop
ID: 4411513114
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 19:39
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I think one of the points is, that even though they shell out those big contracts, if the player tunrs out to be a bust, they still seem to have some spare change lying around to sign someone else to a big contract. 2 of the players you(wiggs) mentioned about the mets, they were big busts, they dont have the spare change to sign someone else to try and cover the mistake of signing them.
Its the players fault for demanding those ridiculous salaries, and then think of all the money they get from sponsership deals. Its pathetic, but its also the owners fault for giving it to them. How much is A-Rod going to want for his next contract when his current one runs out???
Soon, maybe, some of the top FA's arent going to be signed because no one can afford them and they will start the season on the FA's.
Sorry if all this has already been said, but thats just my opinion. If the Yankees can afford it, good for them, let them waste millions on players like rondell white.
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| 126 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 19:47
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I also dont believe the yanks ever offered arod 20 million. Why would then when they already have jeter. IIRC the Mets offered arod the big contract.
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| 127 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 22100300
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 21:29
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The Yanks definitely did want ARod. He's head and shoulders above Jeter, offensively AND defensively.
The Mets also play in a huge market. Maybe you've heard of it. I do agree that, after the Yankees, they are the biggest spenders in baseball. They also don't spend very wisely, which is why they don't win much. Your examples do have some flaws. To get Mo Vaughn, they gave up Kevin Appier, who also had a large contract. To get Alomar, they traded away some serious minor league talent. That's different than signing Mike Mussina and Jason Giambi, who are, by the way, better than Alomar and Vaughn.
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| 128 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Sun, Jan 05, 2003, 21:32
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i never said they werent better. I was just stating because people are bringing up players like ventura and weaver. They were picked up in trades as well.
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| 129 | Rogue Nine
ID: 2404357
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 04:36
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To compare to AirSteve's list in #121, here are the top Expos free-agent signings in the same years.
2002- Troy O'Leary, Andres Galaragga
2001- Mark Smith (who?)
2000- Graeme Lloyd (and wow, did we ever overpay for him.)
1999- Nobody
1998- Nobody
1997- Nobody
1996- Nobody
1995- Nobody
quik_ag, #119. Actually, I'd love it if my Expos could even get to their level. There's something really fun about building a contender when your budget is 3 times smaller than the top team. Watching teams like the A's, Twins, Angels and Astros compete and grow each year is fun. I just wish someone would move my damned team already and at least give the Spos that chance.
Actually, according to Keith Scherer of Baseball Prospectus, the Expos have the 8th best rotation in baseball. (Assuming we don't have to move someone of course.) Here. Add in a lineup of Wilkerson, Vidro, Vlad and ?, and this team could actually do something if given a chance. (Just need one more good bat... Heeelllo Fernando Tatis, could you TRY and earn your 6 mil this season?)
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| 130 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 11:35
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Lloyd was an attempt by Expos management to "prove" they were willing to spend. Of course, you could say the same thing about Giambi.
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| 131 | Rogue Nine
ID: 2404357
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 13:46
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Yeah, I remember them bringing him into town as if he was our savior. Two months later we were back in the gutter. lol
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| 132 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 569221717
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 14:41
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LMAO. Jealousy doesn't wear well on you blue hen. And it impares your ability to make a cogent argument.
2000 (signed in the calendar year of 2000 - Mussina's first season was the 2001 season) - Mussina for $88 mil. Hampton for how much? Kevin Brown for how much the year before?? Yes he was a top flight guy, but not irresponsible.
1999 - Andy Morales is an economy-shaking, spend at all costs, break the bank signing? ROFL.
1998 - Orlando Hernandez cost the Yankees $6.6 million.....for three years . Is that an economy-shaking, spend at all costs, break the bank signing? Nope. True the Yankees could afford to "blow" the money if he flamed out, but it wasn't exactly an irresponsible signing - kind of like signing Kevin Brown and Darren Dreifort was.
Oh, and IMO re-signing Bernie is not the same. Retention of home grown stars is different than "going out of their way to sign superstars every year". But that's just my opinion. It is still unfair to other teams, but being able to afford your own home-grown talent is not something to be criticized for.
1997 (again, played in 1998) - You are whining about Chili Davis? A DH role player?? Who was 38 at the time?? You are reaching dude. How much did he cost compared to other free agent signing that year? I'll answer it for you - chump change. As a matter of fact, the Yankees gave him a whopping $500,000 raise over what he made the previous year for your beloved Royals.
Officially Irabu was acquired via trade, but yeah it was basically a signing because the fat toad cried and wanted to come to the Yankees for the money....although it cost them an equally touted Ruben Rivera - who like Irabu never amounted to jack squat.
David Wells was signed before the 1997 season. Not exactly a superstar at the time coming off a 14 loss season and a 5.14 ERA. The Yankees gave him a $500,000 raise over his 1996 salary. Woo! Break the bank! lol
1996 - Rogers was a large dollar signing. Very true.
1995 - As you point out, Cone was acquired in trade and re-signed. Re-signing is 'going out of their way to sign superstars'? You say tomato, I say tow-mah-toe. You can slant it however you wish.
I stand by my point that you overblow the Yankees' free agent signing history. What they've done since the Giambi signing is much more obnoxious than what they did in the past....and what they did to win the 4 titles in 5 years.
Have a nice day!
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| 133 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 14:57
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Sniff, sniff...I loved Chili Davis...sniff...
I can't be a yankee hater, I have a cousin who played last season in AA Norwich. Need him to get to the big bucks spending yankees (so I can hit him up for a loan! LOL.)
Personally, the most interesting post here is #50. Not because is shows the yankees continually outspending everyone, but the doubling of the top spender about every 5 1/2 years. Scary patern. Wonder how many teams aren't even to the 1995 yankees level yet?
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| 134 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 16:18
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species, Thanks. It is nice to have alittle help here in this arguement.
BH, post 127. I have talked to many fellow yankee fans and none seem to remember the yankees making any significant play towards Arod. all the talk was him going to the mets and him and jeter both playing in NY. You said the mets gave up appier for vaughn? That is true, I forgot about him, but how did they sign appier?
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| 135 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 17:05
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I have a question, why was matsui and contreras not entered into the draft? I just checked a website on contreras and it said he would be drafted by the Drays, but they didnt want him because he wouldnt sign. So then why didnt the 2nd team get a shot at him? Like Ming went into the draft. I dont know much about the MLB draft so any help would be appriciated.
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| 136 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 569221717
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 17:47
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wiggs - only North American players are subject to the draft. With Contreras, when he defected he couldn't just come to the U.S. because he would've been subject to the draft. He had to establish temporary residency somewhere (I think it was Nicaragua) and then be declared a free agent.
Japanese players are bound to their professional teams for 10 years. They can be released (i.e. - didn't Ichiro's team let him out a year early?) or they can request a trade. The other way to get out early is to retire for one full year, then they are no longer bound to their Japanese team and are available to MLB as an international free agent (i.e. Soriano).
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| 137 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 11032171
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 18:03
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thanks species.
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| 138 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Mon, Jan 06, 2003, 19:29
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#134
-Appier signed as a free agent in Y2K for a tidy $8.5 million in his 1st year.
-The Rangers in essence ran the Pay-Rod bid up on themselves. No one else made an offer within $5 million per year. They took alot of heat for this at the time. Definitely Not a case of Yankee spending or even bidding.
#128
The Ventura and Weaver trades (particularly Weaver), as well as the Raul Mondesi for Scott Wiggins deal are sort of in the class of the infamous Millwood for Johnny Estrada deal in that one team picked up some pretty big salary bucks ($1.5 or $2 million / year per deal might not be much to you and me, but for many GM's it is). I thought Wiggs introduced Millwood before Mondesi, Ventura, and Weaver entered the discussion, but I can't find a post to support that. If I'm wrong here, I apologize.
#133- Here you go (sans formatting):
2002 Team Payrolls
N.Y. Yankees $125,928,583
Boston 108,366,060
Texas 105,302,124
Arizona 102,820,000
Los Angeles 94,850,952
New York Mets 94,633,593
Atlanta 93,470,367
Seattle 80,282,668 07
Cleveland 78,909,448
San Francisco 78,299,835
Toronto 76,864,333
Chicago Cubs 75,690,833
St. Louis 74,098,267
Houston 63,448,417
Anaheim 61,721,667
Baltimore 60,493,487
Philadelphia 57,955,000
Chicago White Sox 57,052,833
Colorado 56,851,043
Detroit 55,048,000
Milwaukee 50,287,833
Kansas City 47,257,000
Cincinnati 45,050,390
Pittsburgh 42,323,598
Florida 41,979,917
San Diego 41,425,000
Minnesota 40,225,000
Oakland 39,679,746
Montreal 38,670,500
Tampa Bay 34,380,000
#132- "Chump Change" is a matter of perspective, I guess. Here's the combined list of players for the Twins, Tigers, A's, Reds, Brewers, Expos, and Pirates who made more than Chump Change in 1998:
Kenny Rogers. Barry Larkin. Marquis Grissom.
So one GM's Chump Change is an expenditure that would be in 23% of the other GM's combined 99th percentile.
We can put one issue to rest - It's clearly true that the Yankees haven't signed any of the highest paid free agents in many years. It appears they spend the extra $17 to $81 million (as compared to the rest of MLB in 2002) elsewhere.
Some U.S. senator in the 1980's was fond of saying "Hey, a million here and a million there; pretty soon you're talking some big money..."
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| 139 | JeffG
Sustainer
ID: 40451227
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 09:03
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On Yankees.com:
Yankees execs responds to critics
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| 140 | Whitey
Sustainer
ID: 47130129
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 10:05
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Who says the Royals never make any big free agent signings??
Albie Lopez to lead the Royals to the series
:)
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| 141 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 10:48
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Levine's gotta lower his caffiene intake. Nothing "must now stop."
They can choose to spend the money, and everyone else can choose to talk about it all they want, regardless of the agreement.
Get over your gluttonous selves. Buy your players, sit back, and be quiet, fat and happy. But don't expect fans, media or other teams to not point it out, and for some to be angry, because it is hurting competitive balance of the game.
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| 142 | Razor
Donor
ID: 411149818
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 13:26
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Ya, ridiculous. I thought that Yankees were a lock to win the AL and the Series last year. I can't believe the Yankees upgrade their team every season. I'd call the Yankees the laughing stock of baseball if they can't win with a payroll $40 million higher than every other team.
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| 144 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 19:14
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I guess this is my favorite part of the article in #139:
"The Yankees will get some serious payroll relief before the 2004 season, when a number of their long-term contracts expire. Hitchcock, White, Mondesi, Clemens, Andy Pettitte and David Wells will all become free agents after the 2003 season, giving the Yankees tremendous flexibility to work with."
Almost too many ironies to count.
..."Payroll relief?"...
..."Giving the Yankees tremendous flexibility to work with?"...
Well thank God for that.
It's been way too long since the Yankees had a little spending flexibility. Let's see what the Really can do with some free cash...
And then there's this twist on the famous Patrick Ewing "sure we make alot of money, but we spend alot of money, too...":
"There was a basic agreement that was entered into last year," Levine said. "That agreement provided a set of rules, whether our payroll was $140 (million), $180, $220 or zero. There are specific rules. We pay an awful lot in revenue sharing, and we will pay luxury tax. We heard a lot of discussions from team owners about competitive balance. The days of trying to hide your own problems by blaming the Yankees are over."
I'm with Levine. With this new agreement in place, Tampa Bay should be able to spend about $165 million this year.
Should make it alot more fun to watch that Yankee / D-Ray series.
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| 145 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 51059815
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 19:19
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Air steve, who do you like and where are you from?
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| 146 | AirSteve
ID: 2411382319
Wed, Jan 08, 2003, 21:53
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Living and working in Vermont. I drive up to Montreal a couple times a year (usually opening day and $5 dollar entry / $1 dog, $2 beer night, which with the exchange rate involves about a $10 American night at the park, including gas both ways).
I was an absolutely rabid Dodger fan through the Garvey / Russell / Cey / Lopes years, and pretty much through the late 80's. More of a general baseball fan and a casual fan of the Dodger uniform since that time. I'll explain:
I'm not sure who else feels this way, but I really got turned off by free agency. When I first started watching Dodger baseball in 1978, it was all about The Penguin waddling out double-play grounders every year, and Bill Russell throwing balls away from short every year, and Davey Lopes stealing a ton of bases every year, and Steve Garvey standing like a rock at the plate every year. After Lopes got old, it was Russell and Sax throwing balls away every year. The Mexican screwballer staring up at his cap during his delivery every year. I hated the same Astros every year. The continuity was a really big deal. After Steve Yeager got old, Mike Scioscia came up from Albuequerque, and well, there you were. That was your catcher for the next decade.
I guess the bottom line was: I was a fan of group of players who were The Dodgers. Before they were The Dodgers, they were Albuequerque Dukes. Before they were Albuequerque Dukes, they were Dodgers at the low minor levels. Tommy Lasorda talked about Bleeding Dodger Blue, and I Believed him.
For me, free agency was an amazingly disturbing blow to my equilibrium as a fan. I was a Garvey fan. But then Garvey was a Padre. I was a Penguin fan. But then Penguin was a Cub. I was a Sax fan. But then Sax was a Yankee. Meanwhile Willie Randolph became a Dodger. In my mind Willie Randolph Should have been a Yankee. Eddie Murray Should have been an Oriole. Darryl Strawberry Should have been a Met. Eric Davis Should have been a Red. And Kirk Gibson's homer was really exciting, but he's still just this guy we bought because Detroit couldn't or wouldn't pay him, which sucks. He Should have been a Tiger.
So I was a vehement Dodger fan when there was a Dodger team that was composed of Dodgers and guys that the O'Malley's traded other Dodgers for.
Now (and for many years) I don't really identify with the team. Or any team. There's little Dodger Blue blood. I used to be able to talk with my buddies Every Day about whether the Dodgers were 3.5 games back or 4 games back or 6 games back from the division lead. Now I have trouble getting excited about the Dodgers making a run at the playoffs. It's not like: "how are the Dodgers doing," it's more like: "the Blue Jay's right fielder and the Braves left fielder are doing pretty good, but the Ranger's ace is hurt and the Expo's second baseman refuses to draw a walk, so it looks like the Dodgers may miss the playoffs again."
So my casual fandom of the Dodger uniform (as opposed to The Dodgers) is more a residue of my real Dodger fandom of over a decade ago. Very unfortunately, it's no longer anything I can get all that excited about. If our Japanese pitcher free agents are craftier than your Cuban pitcher free agents, hurrah for the dollars wearing the Dodgers uniforms. If the Oriole's ace is better than the Ranger's ace, hurrah for the dollars wearing the Yankee's uniforms.
Real baseball, disturbingly enough, has become a case of real baseball imitating fantasy baseball: "I want A-Rod. A-Rod for $40 bucks!" Hey, no problem. Sold. Hurray for us. We're great.
In retrospect, I guess I see more value in what Species was saying about how retaining home-grown players can be viewed in a different light than signing somebody elses home-grown players, or ripping them because the other team can't pay them.
At least that way Yankee Fan has a chance to be Jeter/Bernie/Pettite Yankee Fan for a decade. It's Expo Fan and his po-folk small-market compadre's who never had a chance to become Grissom/DeShields/Walker Expo Fan last decade, and won't get to become Vlad/Vazquez/Armas Expo Fan this decade.
For anybody too young to have missed it, it was pretty fun being a fan of a team of people instead of being a fan of a uniform pattern and a checkbook.
It just seems like yesteryear's "wait until next year when this player graduates from AAA" is somehow more noble than today's "wait until next year when this guy's big contract finally expires and we can afford to buy the best guy some other team can't afford."
To paraphrase Orwell: "Everybody's guilty. Some are just more guilty than others."
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| 147 | Whitey
Sustainer
ID: 47130129
Thu, Jan 09, 2003, 09:05
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Air Steve....that was a great post. I am a Yankee fan and even though it is great for me that the Yankees have won 4 world championships since '96 I still long for the days when I could count on seeing the same group of Yankees on the field every year. My time as a Yankee fan began in the early 80s with players like Ken Griffey, Jerry Mumphrey, Willie, Big Dave Winfield, Cerone, etc.. Soon after Donnie baseball joined the group along with Pags, Righetti among others.
Even though those teams weren't all that good, I still had more fun rooting for them than I do now. Baseball has changed drastically in the last 20 years and will never be the same again.
Again, thanks for the post AirSteve you brought back some good memories for me.
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| 148 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Thu, Jan 16, 2003, 14:27
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Haha, for some reason I was up on eBay and decided to do a search for my cousin's name to see if he had any cards. Low and behold, up pops one. Yeah, I'm the high bidder at $1.
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