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Subject: Super Bowl Discussion
Posted by: Ref
- Donor [539581218] Sun, Feb 04, 2007, 11:26
Even if it rains, it's not like the Colts are going to be throttled.
And the Colts D didn't get run over one time that Bob Sanders played this year. Of course, he's not the only key guy that has been (and is) out this year. Harper's injury is problematic as it doesn't look like he will be able to play today. |
| Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well. |
| 79 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 09:51
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Surprised nobody mentioned the Snickers commercial.
Was laughing so hard, I almost fell out of my chair.
Agree with the group that says it was a good game overall.
Weather had a lot to do with it.
Bottom line was that the Colts stepped up as a team and did what they had to do.
And not a bad call for me on the Hester KO Return for a TD to start the game. (In the other Thread)
The Colts wised up quicker than I thought they would on not kicking to him.
Cliff
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| 80 | tastethewaste
ID: 239161113
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 10:00
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PD,
I say if you give to OJ Anderson, instead of Hostetler. Then why give it to Manning over Rhodes? The only thing that is different is name recognition. Regardless, I think Addai shouldve gotten it. He had 10 catches and did all of mannings work for him.
Snickers commercial was funny if they didnt go all homophobic at the end.
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| 81 | Toral
ID: 52621719
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 10:17
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Homophobic at the end? Funny at the end. Wasn't having the characters pull out tufts of their chest a mocking of heterosexualism, rather than an affirmation of it?
I thought Manning controlled the short-pass/run offence of the game. Addai and Rhodes ran well because the Bears were determined to prevent the long pass. (A good strategy, BTW. It kept the Bears in the game until Rex began throwing interceptions.)
Toral
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| 82 | StLCards
Leader
ID: 31010716
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 10:21
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I thought it was a good game. Certainly it would have been better had the Bears been able to mount a drive and score in the 4th quarter. The key play to me was the INT return for a TD.
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| 83 | J
Leader
ID: 049346417
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 10:23
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I thought Grossman should've been the MVP :)
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| 84 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 10:27
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Well, as far as Indy fans are concerned...thats prolly not a bad call J. ;)
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| 85 | tastethewaste
ID: 239161113
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 10:42
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Toral,
I dont want to debate a snickers commercial.
I think under your logic regarding manning, any winning qb should get the MVP for managing the game correctly. How can you give him pts for the run offense. He is just handing off the ball. Is he calling all the plays? I know he audibles a lot but I couldve sworn him say that the coaches were calling the game and Manning was upset after every series because they were too conservative.
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| 86 | Tree
ID: 43133321
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 11:18
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Toral's right on the Snicker's commercial.
the fans in attendence, who had to sit in that downpour watching a mediocre, error-filled game, should have been named the MVPs.
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| 87 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 11:23
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Manning confided to Chris Mortenson after the game that the team doctor told him that his thumb was so badly bruised that he wouldn't be able to grip the ball tightly. In the rain, that could have turned out to be a blessing as you don't want to grip a wet ball too tightly.
I said early in the game with some of those odd passes that his thumb was bothering him, but he also made some tremendous passes with tight spirals. But what do you expect from a 6'5" QB with a laser rocket arm? ;)
I agree with Toral that Manning controlled the game. He called the plays and took what the Defense gave him. He could have passed for over 300 yds or forced it, but why? I agree that Addai, Rhodes, Sanders individually played well. As a group the O-Line and the defense played very well as well. So with so many MVP "candidates", Manning seemed to me to be the right one to get it. Don't discount Rhodes' contribution. Same goes for Sanders. Without either of them, the game could have been very different. The INT TD for the backup DB Hayden who was in for Harper probably got some consideration too as that one play was HUGE! Also liked that Matt Giordano got the last lick that knocked the ball out of Clark's hand to virtually end the game after he was the only one to get a hit on Hester on the opening kickoff--though it was too late. So many players did well. That's not a MVP, that's a great team.
The Colts game back to win from 8 down, the third biggest comeback in Super Bowl History. Like others said, after that the Colts simply dominated the game, yet they didn't put the Bears away. I agree with TB, what more do you want? I was wanting a MORE boring game being a Colts fan! ;)
Wonder if the Colts' defense and especially their Run Defense will get a break now? Maybe people can finally see that injuries were a big part of that. They had the #1 ranked Defense and Run Defense in the playoffs against four of the best teams in the NFL.
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| 88 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 11:24
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86: You go play in a downpour for four hours and see if you can hang onto the ball with those slick gloves.
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| 89 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 11:45
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Saw last night that ESPN had the same poll that they had prior to the season. Then Manning was the 12th best QB in NFL history. Now they've got him the 3rd best behind Montana and Elway. Guarantee you he wouldn't have been that high had he just not been on a team that won the Super Bowl.
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| 90 | Perm Dude
ID: 5013158
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 11:46
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It was always a knock on him that he couldn't win big games. With that out of the way it is no surprise he shoots up the rankings.
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| 91 | tastethewaste
ID: 239161113
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 11:47
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Wonder if the Colts' defense and especially their Run Defense will get a break now?
They were the 7th worst run defense of all time. Not this year. All time! I think they deserved every bit of criticism they received. Since the playoffs started they have overcome injuries, and they played well. Critics have said nothing but that since they shut down LJ.
Did Manning call the plays? I thought he didnt. Addai was 1 catch away from a superbowl record and rushed for 77 yds on 19 carries while sharing the ball. He was involved in half of the Colts offensive plays.
Manning played fine. He threw an INT early and was at least partly responsible for the fumbled handoff. He was no Rothlisberger, but to say he was the unquestionable MVP is absurd.
I think my Hostetler comparison still stands. Addai or at worst co MVP addai and rhodes.
Jim Kelly in that same superbowl with Hostetler was not going to win MVP. The giants schemed by playing 2 down linemen and 9 playing the pass. He handed to Thomas and made short passes to other receivers. If the bills won that game, Thomas is winning MVP, not Kelly.
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| 92 | tastethewaste
ID: 239161113
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 11:50
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Oh and Thomas Jones rushed for 112 yards on only 15 carries and Benson got hurt, so what did they prove?
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| 93 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 11:51
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TTW, they said last night that they don't give co-MVPs away. What are they going to do, give them a time-share on the Caddy? ;)
I am not saying their run defense was horrid for awhile. But they got Sanders and others back for the playoffs. They weren't that same team anymore. Yet many continued to decry thier "horrible" defense coming into the game when they had the best defense in the playoffs. It was apples and oranges.
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| 94 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 11:54
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TTW, yeah they proved they couldn't stop the run because Thomas got 112 yds (about half on one carry). They proved they weren't very good. Yeah, the Colts won IN SPITE of their horrible defense. But even if you do believe that to be the case, what it comes down to is that the Colts won the Super Bowl. Keep thinking they were horrible. I don't care and neither do any other Colts fans.
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| 95 | tastethewaste
ID: 239161113
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 12:05
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I didnt see that they couldnt give CoMVPs. I say give to one of them then. Why do they cancel each other out?
Right, I didnt hear the press saying The Colts run defense hadnt improved. Since the Chiefs game, all Ive heard is that they are fully motivated, they have overcome injuries, etc.
112 yds on 15 carries is still 112 yds on 15 carries. Big runs are part of football and they count against stats. He still averaged 4.2 if you take away his biggest gain. The Bears also didnt have the ball very long and didnt rush it enough. I would say the superbowl was pretty inconclusive to how good or bad the Colts run D was. Were they much improved during the playoffs? yes. Could you see it in the Superbowl, i dont think so.
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| 96 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 13:38
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C'mon TTW...Chi had 1st and goal at the 5, and after 2 runs were 3rd and goal at the 4. Grossman to Moose, on 3rd down, counting for the TD.
The Indy D, after the injured players returned, showed that they are a more formidable defense than they could muster w/o those injured players. I mean afterall, they didnt face and stifle for the most part, any meaningful RBs in the playoff run (ie once the D was healthy) now did they?
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| 97 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 14:49
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call Larry Johnson and ask him!
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| 98 | Electroman
ID: 44651412
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 16:01
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What surprised me was how the rain really affected the Bears. I would have thought that it would have had more of a negative impact on the Colts. The Bears D should have tackled better. That is what killed the Colts in the reg. season, and it killed the Bears in the SB. Why didn't they put more pressure on Manning? They were getting close, then all of a sudden, they played conservative.
Just wondering, does Grossman have smallish hands? Manning had no trouble with the rain, but Grossman had no control on most of his passes. The Sanders INT was a td most likely if it was thrown in the right spot. We have seen him make the throw before.
BTW, what do the Colts do if they want to repeat. Seems that Freeney and June and Morris and others are FA. They have 4 million in cap space I have heard. Should they shed some offense to keep the D?
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| 99 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 16:07
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The Sanders INT was a td most likely if it was thrown in the right spot. We have seen him make the throw before.
The morning guy on the Sportstalk show out here in CA had a good analogy to Grossman's throw there.....
....remember when you played football at recess in Elementary School? Instead of 'kicking off' you would just lob a throw as far and high as you could? THAT's what Grossman's throw in the Sanders INT looked like.
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| 100 | Electroman
ID: 44651412
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 16:08
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BTW Ref, we haven't seen eye to eye on a lot during these playoffs, but I just wanted to say congrats.
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| 101 | tastethewaste
ID: 42017617
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 16:24
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every team has injuries. That should not cause a team to be the 7th worst rushing D of all time. That is worse than some expansion teams. some 1-15 teams. It was the 7th worst of all time.
I said they were improved. They did a great job against LJ. They did a good job against the ravens, they did a good job against NE who didnt run the ball much but still did not play like the 7th worst rushing D of all time.
The superbowl, 19 total carries by the Bears 111 yds with a terrible QB. Its not as if the Colts really needed to honor the pass until it was late in the game. Hats off to the Colts, they were definitely improved in the playoffs then the regular season. All i was saying was the criticism was warranted and the accolades for the D were there after every game during their playoff run. Ref stated "Wonder if the Colts' defense and especially their Run Defense will get a break now? Maybe people can finally see that injuries were a big part of that. They had the #1 ranked Defense and Run Defense in the playoffs against four of the best teams in the NFL. "
I was responding to that. Not to mention I dont know where he sees they were #1 against the run. The chargers gave up 51 yds on 21 carries. They were a playoff team.
I still havent heard one valid argument for Peyton to win MVP. Ive heard he called the plays, but I dont think he did. And I really havent heard any QB winning an MVP for calling a run or passing short. Take away a breakdown in D on the Bears with the TD pass to wayne and Mannings game is no TD passes and less than 200 yds. After all, ref is asking me to neglect a 52 yd run as is sarge since that same run set up the only offensive TD all game for the bears but its not the run defense fault since the bears passed on 3rd and goal.
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| 102 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 16:40
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ESPN Poll:
Who was the MVP?
42.8% Peyton Manning (25-38, 247 yds., TD, INT)
33.3% Dominic Rhodes (21 rushes, 113 yards, TD)
14.7% Joseph Addai (77 yds. rushing, 66 yds. receiving)
7.8% Bob Sanders (INT, forced fumble)
1.4% Adam Vinatieri (11 points: 3-4 FG, 2-2 XP)
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| 103 | tastethewaste
ID: 42017617
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 16:46
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well if an ESPN poll says so...That vinatieri received even 1 vote is astonishing.
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| 104 | Toral
ID: 52621719
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 16:54
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Take away a breakdown in D on the Bears with the TD pass to wayne.
Otherwise, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?
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| 105 | tastethewaste
ID: 42017617
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 17:01
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Toral, I dont get it. My shot was in reference to Ref and Sarge saying if you take away the Bears big run then the Colts did well against the run. So take away Mannings big pass, he was below average.
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| 106 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 17:06
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Well, I can see how you arrived at your moniker!
FWIW, we weren't saying to tkae away Jones' run. We're saying that he had a 52 yard run and only ended up with 112 yards. Less than Rhodes. Then you add in Addai's damage and...well enver mind. Can't reason with irrational people.
Take your shots and spew your crap, but the Colts are teh Champs and you can't take that away from them.
Nice Post Toral. Classic.
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| 107 | tastethewaste
ID: 42017617
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 17:15
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ref, he only had 15 carries. The bears only had the ball 20 minutes. The colts massacred the Bears. I thought the closeness of the game did not tell the story. Once the colts took the lead i thought the bears only hope was a turnover. The issue isnt who rushed for more yards. The colts handed the ball off 42 times, the bears 19. The issue is the Colts run D was not that good yesterday. You are discounting Jones' yds because half came on one carry, so i did the same thing with mannings pass.
There are 2 different issues.
1) The Colts Run D got slack all year because it was the 7th worst of all time. Even with injuries, the criticism is warranted. Yes they improved in the playoffs and were healthy and the press has mentioned that nonstop.
2) Manning did not deserve the MVP. Addai did. 10 catches 66 yds and 19 carries for 77 yds is better than Mannings #s. Why does manning get MVP for handing the ball off. Addai is doing the work. If Manning gets MVP then why dont all winning qbs get MVP. Why didnt Brad Johnson, why didnt Jeff Hostetler, etc.
Congrats to the Colts. They won. I thought they massacred the bears. Im not trying to take anything away from the colts. I just think their run d wasnt great yesterday nor was manning deserving of the MVP.
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| 108 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 17:23
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Finally a well-written, rational post. Thanks.
I've been watching several different channels, both local and national since the game was over and no one has mentioned that Addai should have gotten the MVP. The NFL Network said Rhodes should have gotten it. Rhodes appeared on there today and said he was told that it was a close vote and he was narrowly edged out. Point is, if Manning doesn't get it, Rhodes gets it.
I thought that there were four individuals up for the award. All were deserving but none stood out as the clear-cut favorite. If there was, there wouldn't be this discussion. My hypothesis was that because there was no clear-cut then they voted for Manning because everything went through him and, he's Peyton Manning.
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| 109 | Electroman
ID: 44651412
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 17:28
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I agree with you TTW. Ref is a believer in the myth of the Colts run D. If the Ravens would have stuffed the ball in Jamal Lewis' hands 25-30 times, the Colts would not be SB champs, they would have lost to the Ravens. I say the Ravens because the game was in control, and the Ravens did not let the Colts get out to a big lead. It was a late FG that put the game away. But Billick had a bad game plan, thought that they could win through the air, and well the rest is history. But anyways, the point is moot, the Colts won.
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| 110 | tastethewaste
ID: 42017617
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 17:32
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you should re read my posts. They are all rational. This one just said Congrats to the Colts. Im not hating on the colts. I think youre reading into it that I am and then are thinking im bashing you.
I was actually just watching Around the Horn, 2 said Manning shouldve won it. 1 said an OLineman shouldve won it and 1 said Addai and or Rhodes shouldve won it.
You did state my point however. Manning is Manning and they gave him the MVP because he is marketable. That is why your ESPN poll shows him as the MVP. He is coca cola to Addai's Royal Crown Cola.
If mannings name was Peyton Majekowski, Addai wouldve won the MVP. We have seen Mannings performances twice already, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostetler. Neither won the MVP award. Rhodes stats are so similar to Ottis Anderson's (in fact a little bette) and Addai nearly tied a superbowl record for receptions and also rushed for 77 yds. They shouldnt cancel each other out so manning steps forward to get a car.
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| 111 | Electroman
ID: 44651412
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 17:44
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It seemed that Manning looked a little shocked that he won the MVP. Addai should have won it, he made big plays to keep drives going. Many times it looked like it would be third and long, but Addai broke tackles to make a first, or make it third and short.
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| 112 | Toral
ID: 52621719
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 17:54
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I was rooting for Peyton Manning, and perhaps that affected my certainty re the MVP vote. I can see the case for Addai or Rhodes. Their interchangeability weighs against either being MVP, though, doesn't it?. (I was happy to see Rhodes have a big game...it had been 5 years.)
I still think Peyton wins it outright, and if Rhodes gets the title he is a chump champ like Otis Andersin in XXV (when the MVP was unquestionably Thurman Thomas.
Beg pardon, Hall-of-Famer Thurman Thomas
Maybe we weren't watching the same game. Did you see how many times Rhodes got stuffed early?
Anyway, I am happy to be among the football-dense majority that voted for Peyton Manning. I also like higher minimum-wage laws, caps on CEO salaries, and, like Hillary said ;) excess profit taxes on oil companies.
Toral
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| 113 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 18:00
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The issue is the Colts run D was not that good yesterday.
Bears ran the ball 6 times for 62 yards in the 1st quarter.
Rest of the game they were held to 13 carries for 49 yards. Colts rushing D was fine. Dominating? No. They didn't need for their rushing defense to be dominating against such an overall inferior opponent.
I don't think there's a very strong case for Addai as MVP. He played significant roles in 2 scoring drives, the first possession of the 2nd quarter (started with :09 left in the 1st) and the first possession of the 3rd quarter. Both drives ended in FGs and neither kick was a game-breaking score.
In the first of those drives, Addai carried 3 times for 11 yards and caught two passes for 17 yards. In the other, he carried 5 times for 25 yards and caught two passes for 7 yards. Not bad, but note that Addai got the ball twice in each series that failed to convert.
Really, it was a team victory and I agree that Peyton does not particularly stand out. But since you cant give it to the defense (which regrouped after the 1st quarter and held Chi to 3 points the rest of the way), Manning is as good a choice as any.
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| 114 | tastethewaste
ID: 42017617
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 18:03
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ive said from my first post onward it shouldve been addai and if this was a problem because of rhodes getting 100+ yds Co MVPs. Since Ref informed me that there cannot be co mvps, then addai gets it, not rhodes. you also said manning was unquestionably the mvp so i took issue and now you are backing off.
Thomas wouldve won the MVP if the Bills won. Cant see a losing player getting the MVP in the Superbowl. 1986 NLCS maybe. Could you imagine if Kelly had won the MVP? He saw the Giants playing 2 down lineman and Kelly, who actually did call the plays, audibled handoffs to Thomas. So Kelly gets it because of his management of the game? Thats the reason ive been hearing why Manning wins the MVP.
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| 115 | tastethewaste
ID: 42017617
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 18:08
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Bears ran the ball 6 times for 62 yards in the 1st quarter.
Doug Williams passed for 4 TDs in the 2nd qtr of superbowl XXII. After that the Broncos pass D was fine. Now thats an extreme but a quarter is 1/4 of the game. Consider the bears only had the ball 20 minutes, i would say the colts run d didnt necessarily regroup. Then again, they didnt have to.
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| 116 | Weykool
Leader
ID: 41750315
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 20:51
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If mannings name was Peyton Majekowski, Addai wouldve won the MVP.
Not if Peyton Majekowski had played as well as Manning.
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| 117 | Toral
ID: 52621719
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 20:57
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Since Ref informed me that there cannot be co mvps
Did Ref say that? I find that hard to believe since any football fan knows that Randy White and Harvey Martin were co-MVPs in XII.
Toral
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| 118 | Toral
ID: 52621719
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 21:04
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Cant see a losing player getting the MVP in the Superbowl.
Guess you can't have watched V. Chuck Howley, MVP. Now THAT may have been the worst SB that wasn't a blowout ever. Even if you didn't see it...when they pick an LB from the losing team as the MVP, you may surmise that it was a choppy, ugly game.
Unlike IV, in which Hank Stram allowed himself to be wired for sound and famously gloated that the vaunted Minnesota defence was running around as if an....
Anyone?
Toral
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| 119 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 21:15
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Chinese Fire Drill?
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| 120 | tastethewaste
ID: 42017617
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 21:25
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I knew dallas had co mvps. But ref said something about not being able to cut the car in half so no co mvps.
I forgot about that, was that super bowl V? I guess they couldve given it to thomas, but its not as if a guy who rushes for over 100 yds and scored a TD for the winning team didnt deserve it.
As for weykool, see Jeff Hostetler or Brad Johnson.
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| 121 | Toral
ID: 52621719
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 21:27
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10 points for TB.
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| 122 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 45022307
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 21:37
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ttw
Addai's contribution weren't significant enough to warrant an MVP award. You're just looking at numbers. You say that Addai's numbers justify it. They don't, not when you CONSIDER WHAT HE ACTUALLY DID IN THE GAME. The bulk of his contributions came during two drives that ended in FGs.
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| 123 | tastethewaste
ID: 42017617
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 23:13
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Why would the opening drive count against Addai because Indy didnt score, but Manning who got the MVP gets rewarded at the same time for ending that drive?
2nd Drive, Addai was involved in 5 of the 9 plays. Granted some were not very productive but when you go to Addai 5 times in 8 tries maybe that was the reason Wayne was left so wide open for the TD.
3rd drive, Manning fumbles.
4th Drive, Addai doesnt get the ball, Colts go 3 and out.
5th Drive, Addai doesnt get the ball, colts go 3 and out.
6th Drive, Addai gets the ball 5 out of 7 times. FG
7th Drive, no Addai, TD
8th Drive, Addai 5 out of 7 plays has the ball. The 7th, (a play he doesnt get the ball, Colts fumble). Addai gets penalized for that too?
9th Drive, 2 minute offense, addai gets 1 carry 0 yds, missed FG.
10th drive, Addai gets ball 9 times out of 12 play drive. FG
I would say he was the center point of the offense. Considering offensively they only got 1 more FG, I dont know how any other colt could get the MVP.
Defensively they just werent on the field enough to give it to anyone on that side. Addai and ball control much like ottis anderson and the giants was the most valuable to the Colts victory. Add in impressive #s, Addai gets it.
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| 124 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 23:21
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The announcers last night said there could not be co-MVPs.
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| 125 | Tree
ID: 43133321
Tue, Feb 06, 2007, 09:24
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i really think Rex Grossman - or maybe Lovie Smith for sticking by him all season - should have beenthe MVP. he is the worst QB to ever play in a SB, and if he's their starter next year, the Bears need to fire Smith.
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| 126 | barilko6
ID: 3912867
Tue, Feb 06, 2007, 09:32
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I think the entire Colts Offensive line should have shared the award. They created holes for the backs to get through and kept the Forehead standing almost all game. One sack and maybe 2 hurries is pretty awesome against the best defense in the league.
5 OL, maybe they each get the Escalade for 2 months and have random draws for the final two months?
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| 127 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Feb 06, 2007, 11:04
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Three guys on one of the ESPN show said that Sanders should have gotten the MVP. Cold Pizza had Rhodes on this morning as they felt he should have gotten it. Rhodes said that he felt that Manning deserved it and if not him, the OLine should have gotten it and him third. He said he just wanted the Escalade. ;)
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| 128 | tastethewaste
ID: 42017617
Tue, Feb 06, 2007, 18:58
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looks like the snickers commercial was homophobic... its worse than we think?
Snickers pulling the ad due to protests.
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