| 0 |
Subject: 2011 RotoGurupie Keeper 14: Preseason Discussion
Posted by: TB
- Sherpa [031811922] Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 19:26
2011 RotoGurupie Keeper 14 League has been initiated. I haven't made any changes from the 2010 League Rules or imported rosters from the 2010 season and am hoping to enlist the aid of Bonka for that once we decide as a league on any and all changes. I believe it also gave us a new link to the 2011 season: http://www27.myfantasyleague.com/2011/home/23872#0
Once I hit submit on this post, I will send an email to every manager to make sure everyone is coming back and to direct them to this thread. The only two people who have yet to confirm they are coming back are Boikin/skeepers and Legge.
We have Taxman as an alternate to join if either of those drop out.
Based on last year, these are the timelines we will work with this year:
--Keeper declarations are due by noon ET on Sunday, August 21, 2011.
--The draft will start officially at noon ET on Thursday, August 25, 2011.
--NFL Week 1 starts at 8:30 ET on Thursday, September 8, 2011.
I did push keepers back a couple days from last years timeline because I will be able to kick out a final excel sheet that Sunday night that shows everyone the drafts slots used on keepers and will get them all entered at the site at the same time. This does mean we should have a cut-off for the two returning managers to check in by Friday the 19th to give any possible new managers an opportunity to review their roster and make those keeper decisions.
Per our rules, the draft order is the reverse of regular season standings with the League Champion drafting last and the Toilet Bowl Champion drafting first. That would make the draft order the opposite of last season standing with IAC and Guru switching places:
1) GoatLocker (Toilet Bowl Champion)
2) Beezer
3) Boikin/skeepers
4) TB
5) Legge
6) Doug
7) Athletics Guy
8) MC
9) mjd
10) Da Bomb
11) Challenger
12) Bonka
13) Guru
14) IAC (Champion)
Challenger put together the Pre-draft roster showing each keepers draft pick value. I have not had a chance to go through it by name, but wanted to share it immediately and give everyone the chance to double-check their team and others.
2011 Predraft Roster (Google Doc)
One of the things I am reminding myself to check is to make sure any players picked up after week 13 are not counted on this sheet. Per our rules located at this link: http://football27.myfantasyleague.com/2011/options?L=23872&O=26
Only players on a manager's roster at the end of NFL Week 13 and who remain on that roster throughout the playoffs are eligible to be kept the following season.
I paid the 90 bucks to get the league up and running this year. Next year someone else can step up or we can figure out an alternate plan. I think I opened up all the owner options that were turned off during the play-offs. What I did not do is transfer rosters or make any changes to any previous rules. I am hoping to recruit Bonka or at least talk with him or Guru to see if that is what I should do or just wait until everyone announces keepers and add the keepers to rosters.
The last order of business is to discuss rule changes. The RIFC made some significant changes this season:
1. Team defense is eliminated
2. IDP slot is added (rule #3 covers the new IDP requirement)
3. 2 DL, 2 LB, 2 DB, 1 flex
4. IDP scoring change
OLD - sack=3, int=3, fumble=3 (forced=2, recovered=1) [Note: total for sack=4 (incl tackle), total for int=4 (incl PD), total for fumble=3]
NEW - sack=1, TFL(tackle for loss)=2, QB hit =1, int=3, fumble=4 (forced=2,recovered=2) [Note: sack total=4, fumble total=4, int total=4]
We have a couple days to talk about these and implement any changes. We also need to talk about any other rule changes we want to discuss. I know we had a lot of discussion on keeper slots and the ability to swap same round draft picks teams were using for keepers. I have nothing additional to add to the conversation from our last thread, but I would support any proposal that mandated using only original team picks for keepers and not any draft picks obtained via trade.
I would like to poll each member on the RIFC changes.
1. Should we adopt all four of the RIFC rule changes listed above?
(A) Yes
(B) No
2. Should the Team defense slot be eliminated and an IDP slot be added?
(A) Yes
(B) No
3. If rule 2 is approved, which of these IDP line-ups should we use:
(A) 2 DL, 2 LB, 2 DB, 1 flex (This is the new RIFC line-up)
(B) 1 DL, 1 LB, 1 DB, 4 flex (Added new IDP slot to flex)
4. IDP scoring:
(A) We should adopt the RIFC rule changes
(B) We should keep the same IDP scoring rules from 2010
Looking forward to another season of football with each of you. |
| 1 | I_AM_CANADIAN
ID: 450482421
Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 19:55
|
In. Logged into MFL.
1. A
2. A
3. A
4. A
|
| 2 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 20:11
|
I just logged in as TB and had to re-enter my wireless info. Looks like it transferred the rest of my personal info.
|
| 3 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 21:25
|
If we had done this earlier, we could have used the MFL discount, which was I think $20. There's also a discount for multiple leagues, which Guru could have gotten ($10 off) since he pays for the RIFC leagues.
1. A
2. A
3. A
4. A
|
| 4 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 21:47
|
1. A
2. A
3. A
4. A
|
| 5 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 21:52
|
Hypothetical question.
Suppose I keep Rodgers, Gore, Rice, and White. All four require 1st rounders, which means I forfeit my picks in rounds 1-4.
Suppose now that I also trade away Reggie Wayne (another 1st rounder) for a 3rd round pick.
I know that the team getting Wayne must sacrifice their 1st round pick to keep Wayne, and they have also traded away their 3rd round pick.
But, do I get to use their third round pick, or is it now used as a keeper pick (i.e., my keepers require my 1st, 2nd, and two 3rd round picks)?
|
| 6 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 22:53
|
BTW, the spreadsheet shows Reggie White as one of my 1st rounders. It should be Reggie Wayne.
|
| 7 | Challenger
ID: 345562218
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 01:33
|
I just dropped the 4 players I pick up for the last seasons playoffs. This is any player picked up on Dec 8, 2010 or later. They should not be listed on the spreadsheet.
I show the players for each team as:
mjd - David Buehler
IAC - Mercedes Lewis, Shayne Graham, Brent Grimes, Antoine Bethea, Quintin Mikell, & William Moore
Doug - Bernard Pollard
Guru - Troy Polamalu
MC - Owen Daniels, Matt Bryant, John Abraham, & Jamar Chaney
|
| 8 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 01:38
|
I saw that on the sheet as well. I will have to finish going through it tomorrow. I went shooting earlier today and spent the night cleaning my guns.
With your question, under our current rules in order to keep four players worth a first round draft slot you would have to use your four highest picks, even ones you have traded for, which would make that trade worthless to you.
If there are two or more players that achieve first round keeper status, they may be kept in exchange for forfeiting the same number of picks at the front of the draft. Keep 3 first round players, forfeit the first 3 picks. Keep 5, forfeit the first 5 picks.
Your question provides a great example of how if you were required to use your own picks for keepers you would only have to use your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round pick and would still be able to make trades and have early round draft picks to use in the draft. So, not only would it be a way to prevent a trade like what happened last season, but would actually provide incentive for teams with top-heavy talent to trade those players.
|
| 9 | I_AM_CANADIAN
ID: 450482421
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 11:14
|
I went ahead and dropped:
IAC - Mercedes Lewis, Shayne Graham, Brent Grimes, Antoine Bethea, Quintin Mikell, & William Moore
I'm guessing I should add these players back to my roster then?
Dustin Keller
Rob Bironas
Carnell (Cadilac) Williams
Jerome Harrison
Brian Orakpo
James Hall
PLS Confirm.
|
| 10 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 11:29
|
Da Rules: Only players on a manager's roster at the end of NFL Week 13 and who remain on that roster throughout the playoffs are eligible to be kept the following season.
IAC, you shouldn't need to add anyone back to your roster. Once you drop a guy, he's gone for good unless you re-acquire him before the end of Week 13.
|
| 11 | I_AM_CANADIAN
ID: 450482421
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 11:43
|
Ah OK, NP.
I shouldn't have an issue finding 6 viable keepers outa my squad of 18 remaining.
|
| 12 | GoatLocker
Leader
ID: 060151121
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 12:42
|
I'm logged in too.
1. A
2. A
3. A
4. A
|
| 13 | Challenger
ID: 345562218
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 15:18
|
I just checked the spreadsheet on Google Doc and the format didn't fully take as I did it, mainly the font color for previous keepers. If there was a cell which needed one player in black and the other(s) in red it only carried over the black. So TB and I are going over the sheet and then I'll email it to you. To bad as it would have been a nice place to store them one the web.
|
| 14 | GoatLocker
Leader
ID: 060151121
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 19:53
|
Google Doc is great, but can also be a pain in the B***
Thanks for all the effort guys.
|
| 15 | Doug
ID: 26723151
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 03:24
|
1 B
2 B
3 A
4 B
|
| 16 | leggestand
ID: 451119710
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 09:52
|
Hey guys - thanks for setting this up again and looking forward to another year.
1. B
2. B
3. A
4. A
One comment on the spreadsheet: I have Mendenhall as a 6th rounder on my spreadsheet (12/2 = 6), but he's shown on the google doc as a 4th rounder.
|
| 17 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 11:11
|
1. (B) No
2. (B) No
3. (A) 2 DL, 2 LB, 2 DB, 1 flex
4. IDP scoring:
Neither. I am OK with the new scoring in the RIFC with the exception of QB Hit. Does a QB Hit merit a fantasy point? I guess there's no reason to have one small difference in scoring between RIFC and us, but I wanted to bring this up because I want to understand the logic of awarding a point for something that can be a neutral play on the field. I can't think of one other play we award points for that has a neutral effect on the game.
|
| 18 | mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 11:30
|
Yea, thanks for getting us up and running. I'm logged in.
1.A
2.A
3.A
4.A
|
| 19 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 12:06
|
My thinking on QB hit was that, even though there may not always be a direct favorable consequence of the play, it is what IDPs (particularly linemen) are trying to do, and can have a bearing on the performance of the QB - if not immediately, then over the course of the game.
The other general rationale was that it's a stat that favors DL over the other IDP positions, and we were trying to better balance the scoring potential across IDPs.
29 NFL players had 15 or more QB hits last season, of which 21 were DLs. Interestingly, the top QBH player was Cameron Wake, LB, Mia - with 28 in 16 games. Aaron Kampman was the only regular to average more than 2 per game (17 in 8 games) but he missed the second half of the season.
|
| 20 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 12:27
|
I have no idea why anyone would want to swap to the 2-2-2-1 IDP setup and not take the new RIFC scoring.
|
| 21 | Challenger
ID: 345562218
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 13:16
|
1) B
2) B
3) B
4) A
Guru also added scoring for blocked kicks. I would like for us to add that as well.
|
| 22 | Challenger
ID: 345562218
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 13:55
|
Legge, 1st off let me thank you for your previous years keeping the spreadsheet updated. I ain't as easy as everyone thinks it is.
I've also updated the sheet on Google Doc reflecting Mendenhall and also deleted Adrain Wilson who is no longer on your roster.
Guru, I changed Aaron Rodgers from 1st rd keeper to 2nd rd.
There were also 7 players whom I left off various teams, all free agent pickups. They were added to the bottom of each team and highlighted in green. (For the Goggle doc)
|
| 23 | Challenger
ID: 35781513
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 15:06
|
Anyone wanting a copy of the spreadsheet, drop me a line or post here with your preferred email addy. (This way I can have an up-to-date email addy as I several teams with multiple emails addy's)
btw, it's in .xlsx format. If you need it converted to the older .xls form just let me know.
|
| 24 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 15:50
|
Legge, we caught that on our final scrub yesterday and looks like Challenger already updated it (but needs to be bolded red again).
Bonka, the question reads, "If rule 2 is approved, which of these IDP line-ups should we use." So it does make sense that while some might be opposed to the change, if the league voted favorable for the other changes then they would prefer the new IDP line-up.
For the record, I'd like to see us continue to match all RIFC changes that don't impact longterm keeper strategy, which I do not think any of these changes impact past keepers.
As far as QB hits, as long as the system can score it and it's not something that has to be manually corrected weekly, I am okay with it.
My votes are:
1. A
2. A
3. A
4. A
|
| 25 | leggestand
ID: 451119710
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 15:52
|
Legge, 1st off let me thank you for your previous years keeping the spreadsheet updated. I ain't as easy as everyone thinks it is.
No prob, Challenger, and I'll try to help out with it this year. The past 12-18 months have been crazy for me with taking a new job at a start up company and having a 2nd kid, so, I apologize to all for being WAY less active. The plus is that life seems to be hitting a more normal speed, and let's hope it translates into a more competitive team this year.
I am still stinging about trading Jamaal Charles away to TB, though, as I couldn't get a real handle on his value mid last year and shipped him off for underwhelming WR's.
With that being said, I could be talked into trading Marshawn Lynch as a 17th Rounder for a solid WR to keep. I'd need good value, though, as Lynch in the 17th round seems to be a decent spot compared to his ADP. Email if you have a decent offer, although I am still on the fence on trading him in that spot.
|
| 26 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 15:56
|
Get rid of DEF, please, for the love of God :(
|
| 27 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 16:42
|
I am with you, Bonka. I really don't like playing with both IDP and team defense.
I was refreshing myself on our league rules/bylaws and didn't see where it said what portion of the league had to vote favorable for changes like the ones proposed to be implemented. I did see where it said all keeper rules had to be approved by 75% (11 of 14 managers). Have we set a precedent in the past where we make other changes with a simple majority?
|
| 28 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 17:20
|
Well I thought we just mirrored RIFC rules when they were changed. Shouldn't really have to vote this stuff through if that's the case.
|
| 29 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 17:30
|
I don't think the rules changes are going to have much effect on the keeper aspect of the league. Guru suggested we consider holding off a year on eliminating Team Defense in case it affects anyone's keeper strategy, but I don't really believe anyone would have a problem with doing it this year. If you want to count votes against the "keeper threshhold" for rule changes, it's supposed to be 11 of 14 for the change. My objection to eliminating Team Defense was merely that I enjoy having it in play, not that I want to keep a Team D. Yeah, I know it's mostly a crapshoot, but it's fun for me. It's not completely random, either.
Truly, if we're going to eliminate Team D, it probably makes sense to also get rid of PK's. I wouldn't vote for that, but I'll bet the randomness of PK's is similar to that of Team Defenses.
|
| 30 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 17:36
|
2010 RotoGurupie Keeper 14: Preseason Discussion
I honestly didn't remember if we did that so looked at last years thread [post 37]. I don't see any reason we shouldn't continue to mirror RIFC line-up and scoring rules so will enter the changes tonight when I get home, unless Bonka beats me to it (hint hint).
Challenger pointed out above that they also added scoring for blocked kicks (2 points) so we should add that as well.
|
| 31 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 18:01
|
I'll let you copy the scoring from RIFC. There's an easy way that you just enter the league ID you want to copy from. If you can't find it I can do it, but you're better off doing stuff so you know for any future situations.
Regarding PK. I think they're pretty dumb any more, but they've just been there the whole time and are woven in to fantasy football. They're just kind of there and nobody cares much.
|
| 32 | The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 20:10
|
1.A
2.A
3.A
4.A
|
| 33 | Athletics Guy
ID: 05231519
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 22:08
|
1. B
2. B
3. A
4. B
|
| 34 | Challenger
ID: 35781513
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 00:07
|
I just sent out another link to Goggle Docs for hopefully a way to correctly see all the previous drafted keepers in their correct font color (red). Let me know if you didn't get the email.
|
| 35 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 01:34
|
Looks good to me.
|
| 36 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 16:08
|
Bonka, I didn't see the option to import rules from another league, but once I got in there and started clicking things it turned out to be pretty simple. If someone could double-check the line-up and scoring changes and make sure I entered them correctly that would be great.
|
| 37 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 16:14
|
You can only import scoring as far as I know. It's under the select a packaged scoring system.
|
| 38 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 16:21
|
That's what I meant, import scoring rules. Regardless, I clicked around a lot and couldn't find it. Turns out I spent twice the time looking for how to import scoring rules then it actually took to make the changes manually. The good part though, is I became pretty familiar with the site functions and am confident I can commish this league.
|
| 39 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 16:24
|
1. B
2. B
3. B
4. B though I would rather have sacks stay at a total of 3pts instead of going to 4.
|
| 40 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 16:43
|
Good to see you Boikin.
In case anyone missed my post above, we adopted all the RIFC changes this year. This includes:
1. Team defense is eliminated
2. IDP slot is added and the new IDP line-up is 2 DL, 2 LB, 2 DB, 1 flex
3. IDP scoring changes:
OLD: sack=3, fumble=3 (forced=2, recovered=1)
NEW: sack=1, fumble=4 (forced=2,recovered=2)
NEW ADDED: TFL(tackle for loss)=2, QB hit =1
Here are our complete scoring rules:
Passing TDs 4 points each
Passing Yards .04 point for every 1
Pass Interceptions Thrown -2 points each
Passing 2 Pointers 1 point each
Rushing TDs 6 points each
Rushing Yards .1 point for every 1
Rushing 2 Pointers 2 points each
Receiving TDs 6 points each
Receiving Yards .1 point for every 1
Receiving 2 Pointers 2 points each
Field Goal Made 0-39 3
Field Goal Made 40-49 4
Field Goal Made 50-99 5
Missed Field Goal 0-29 -1
Missed Field Goal 30-99 0
Extra Points 1 point each
Extra Points Missed -1 point each
Punt Return Yards .1 point for every 1
Kickoff Return Yards .04 point for every 1
Fumbles Lost (to Opponent) -2 points each
Fumble Recoveries (from Opponent) 2 points each
Forced Fumbles 2 points each
Interceptions Caught 3 points each
Passes Defensed 1 point each
Blocked kick (FG, XP, punt) 2
Tackles 1 point each
Assists 0.5 points each
Sack 1 point each (.5 for half sack)
Quarterback Hits 1 point each
Tackles for a Loss 2 points each
Safeties 3 points each
All Other Touchdowns 6 points each (whether on offense, defense, or special teams)
|
| 41 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 17:50
|
Five days until Keeper declarations are due. Baring any injuries or trades (in which case I will repost my keepers in this thread before the deadline), here are my keepers:
Jamaal Charles (5th)
Mike Williams (12th)
Vernon Davis (12th)
Jacoby Ford (24th)
TJ Ward (24th)
Deangelo Hall (24th)
|
| 42 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 18:04
|
I was hoping someone else would propose a keeper rule change and with keepers due in 5 days, I have a hard time seeing 75% of the league voting in favor of a rule change, but I am going to propose it anyway and if it isn't accepted in time this year, can be a rule (if accepted) we can implement next season.
1) I would like to add this to the keeper rules: Managers must use their own draft pick slots for keepers and cannot use picks acquired from other teams for keepers.
2) In conjunction with that rule change, I would like to change one paragraph of our keeper rules from:
If there are two or more players that achieve first round keeper status, they may be kept in exchange for forfeiting the same number of picks at the front of the draft. Keep 3 first round players, forfeit the first 3 picks. Keep 5, forfeit the first 5 picks.
to:
If there are two or more players that achieve first round keeper status, they may be kept in exchange for forfeiting the same number of picks at the front of the draft. Keep two first round players, forfeit your 1st and 2nd round pick. Keep three first round players, forfeit your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick. Keep four first round players, forfeit your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round pick. Keep five first round players, forfeit your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th round pick. Keep six first round players, forfeit your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th round pick. In order for a manager to keep six first round players, they would need to have their original top 6 draft picks, to keep five first round players, they would need to have their original top 5 draft picks, etc.
After last seasons trade and the discussion that followed, I'd like to see us have to use our own draft picks for keepers and avoid any type of gaming same round draft picks. The second part of my proposal is to greater define the keeper rules in regards to using your own picks if the first part is accepted.
I need to know if there is enough support for this proposed rule change to warrant a vote.
|
| 43 | leggestand
ID: 451119710
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 18:22
|
I fully support.
|
| 44 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 18:51
|
Fine with me, but maybe we should allow same round picks to be used that aren't the original pick, but are a higher pick than the original. This probably wouldn't come in to play much, if at all, but it seems fair to me. We're just trying to prevent people from trading their x.01 away for x.14 and still keeping a player in that round. Not a big deal if they trade their x.05 for x.02 and end up using it to keep a player. This would allow someone who has no 1st round pick due to a trade from the previous year to make a trade for a higher 1st round pick than they would have had to keep a 1st round player.
|
| 45 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 19:49
|
I'd like to see us add another keeper slot for IDP.
I still don't agree with the rule change suggested in [42]. I would vote against it.
I am considering how we could change the keeper rules to eliminate situations like Guru's (and soon to be my own) where a manager can keep 4 players with first round keeper status by giving up picks in rounds 1-4. My preference is to allow fewer players to be kept in that way. I'd support a resolution to allow only 2 players to be kept in any round unless a manager happens to have more than 2 picks in that round. Or, alternately, a player can't be kept with a pick from a round more than 1 round away from the required keeper slot. For example, if a manager has 3 first round keepers, the manager can keep 1 player with his 1st round pick and one with his 2nd round pick, but he can't keep the third player with his 3rd round pick because the third round is more than 1 away from the pick owed for the keeper. This seems in accordance with the current rule on straddling keepers: If three players on the same team require forfeiture of equal draft rounds to be kept, the owner forfeits that round's pick, plus the two picks from the straddling rounds.
Our current method of allowing up to six 1st round picks to be kept with draft picks from rounds 1-6 is not really in accordance with that rule. I understand we've made them mutual exceptions, but it seems to me too great of an advantage in the instances when it happens. It's also creating a real dearth of viable picks at the top of the draft. Something to think about. Maybe the simple answer is to reduce the number of keepers allowed. I'd support changing the number of keepers to 3 any type and 2 IDP only.
|
| 46 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 20:46
|
I brought that up last year (or maybe someone else did and I supported it) and still agree with it, that you should only be able to keep 1 player per round. Not up to 6 first rounders. I'd be ok with limiting it to 2 per round as mentioned as well, if it came to it.
|
| 47 | mjd
ID: 457451611
Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 22:13
|
This was an issue we wanted to address last season, but never came to a resolution. Potentially everyone is headed to 5 or 6 first round keepers. I'd agree to some sort of modification.
Kevin Kolb (14) on the block for pick(s) or I could use a keeper worthy RB.
|
| 48 | I_AM_CANADIAN
Sustainer
ID: 01361448
Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 09:39
|
I'd be open to a Keeper Scenario modification to the rules as well... but I'm not sure how. I'm listening for now.
|
| 49 | mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:52
|
I'd support something along the lines that MC suggested. Would promote more top player availability in the draft and hopefully more league wide parity.
Would certainly encourage more trading.
Tough decisions would have to be made.
|
| 50 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 12:05
|
Something along the lines of MC's suggestion [45] would be OK with me, even though it would be to my competitive detriment. I would not support it for 2011 keepers, however. A change like that should be planned for when drafting and managing the year prior.
|
| 51 | mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 15:46
|
Absolutely not this year.
|
| 52 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 16:35
|
against changes in post 42, in favor of changing current keeper rules for first round players.
|
| 53 | leggestand
ID: 451119710
Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 15:21
|
I support MC's modification if I am reading it right...you can only keep one player per round, so, no keeping 5 guys in the first round. Although it doesn't impact me, I also believe we can't institute on this year's keepers but could enact it for next year.
|
| 54 | leggestand
ID: 451119710
Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 15:24
|
Baring any injuries or trades (in which case I will repost my keepers in this thread before the deadline), here are my keepers:
Chris Johnson (1)
Ben Roethlisberger (5)
Rashard Mendenhall (6)
Braylon Edwards (13)
Marshawn Lynch (17)
Terrell Thomas (24)
|
| 55 | I_AM_CANADIAN
Sustainer
ID: 01361448
Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 16:46
|
Baring any injuries or trades (in which case I will repost my keepers in this thread before the deadline), here are my keepers:
Steven Jackson (1)
Jason Witten (2)
Darren McFadden (7)
Vincent Jackson (24)
Benjarvus Green-Ellis (24)
Osi Umenyiora (24)
|
| 56 | The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 21:13
|
Concur with #45 for 2012 keepers and beyond.
Here's my expected keeper list (will update if there are trades or something weird happens):
- Jahvid Best (1)
- Larry Fitzgerald (1)
- Antonio Gates (2)
- LaRon Landry (20)
- Mario Manningham (24)
- Michael Vick (24)
|
| 57 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 22:31
|
I don't think I would be in favor of changing our keeper rules to have any less than our current amount of keepers (25% of our roster with 75% redrafted every season) nor would I like to see us change a rule we knew way back in season one would eventually happen.
If there are two or more players that achieve first round keeper status, they may be kept in exchange for forfeiting the same number of picks at the front of the draft. Keep 3 first round players, forfeit the first 3 picks. Keep 5, forfeit the first 5 picks.
That is the original rule and we knew eventually that if a manager drafted or traded well (ie, Guru) then eventually he could have five players worthy of 1st/2nd round value. It had actually happened already by 2009 when multiple teams were keeping players that cost first round picks. examples:
Darren McFadden (1)
Thomas Jones (1)
Willis McGahee (1)
Marshawn Lynch (1)
Tennessee Titans Defense (14)
Ed Reed (22)
LT (1)
Calvin Johnson (1)
Deangelo Williams (1)
Matt Schaub (6)
Kevin Walter (13)
Sean Jones (24)
Brian Westbrook (1)
Andre Johnson (1)
Tom Brady (2)
Brandon Marshall (2)
Braylon Edwards (2)
Demarcus Ware (9)
The only problem I had with our rules is having the loophole that was exploited by the MC/boikin trade last season. Today I was looking at this thread: 2009 Preseason Doug had completed multiple trades. He was keeping a player who cost a 12th round draft pick and he had already traded away his 12.06 but he had 12.02 from another manager and we had quite a bit of discussion on this but the final agreement was seeing how it was a higher pick than his original pick it was an okay trade.
If you go down to [Post 90] you will see this post: MC and I have chatted, and have agreed with his (and Doug's) interpretation that the spirit of the rule is that if you don't have a spot to keep a player, you sacrifice your next earliest available pick (in Doug's case, the 12th rounder received from Boikin).
This was a good precedent that was ignored last season and until the league as a whole redefines the rule through a majority vote I will be supporting the initial precedent set in the Doug trade.
Fake Edit: Before clicking a final submit, I went back to the thread with the trade and saw legge mention it near the end of this thread. I have to admit, I was tired of talking about it at that point and missed it.
|
| 58 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Thu, Aug 18, 2011, 23:30
|
The loopholes are the main issue that need to be closed. Limiting teams to only 1 keeper per round is just something that affects the available player pool for the draft year to year. If you want more top end players available in the draft, then you limit to 1 keeper per round and only allow a higher pick to be used for multiples in a round (ie 11th + 12th round picks for 2 12th rounders). If you want people to hold on to what they've got indefinitely, then no limit, keep it the way it is now.
When you look at it though, not many teams actually end up bulking up 1st round keepers. There seems to be a lot of players picked up from waivers or just drafted in the mid rounds previous years that are better keeper values.
|
| 59 | leggestand
ID: 451119710
Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 11:08
|
This was a good precedent that was ignored last season and until the league as a whole redefines the rule through a majority vote I will be supporting the initial precedent set in the Doug trade.
I am fine with this and think that was the solution that was agreed to and just needs to be adhered to.
On the one keeper per round. I don't really care. If someone has 5 first rounders to keep, good for them, and it will be on them to decide if player A taking up round 5 in the draft is worth more than Player B taking up round 17. My preference is to have more open spots at the beginning, so, I draft accordingly. I tried to figure out a way to drop Chris Johnson this year and make my team better, but just couldn't make it happen.
I really only supported the "only keep one player per round" solution as it helped with the un-resolved issue that i think TB has made a formal decision on based on what was agreed to in 2009.
|
| 60 | I_AM_CANADIAN
Sustainer
ID: 01361448
Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 11:26
|
RE 55: Injuries hit... of course
Here's my updated list:
Steven Jackson (1)
Jason Witten (2)
Darren McFadden (7)
Paul Posluszny (12)
Vincent Jackson (24)
Benjarvus Green-Ellis (24)
|
| 61 | leggestand
ID: 451119710
Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 11:38
|
Oof, Beezer. Mike Vick in the 24th...probably the #1 value keeper for the season.
|
| 62 | Athletics Guy
ID: 05231519
Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 17:45
|
Andre Johnson (1)
Brandon Marshall (1)
Tom Brady (1)
Felix Jones (6)
Steve Johnson (24)
Eric Berry (24)
|
| 64 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 18:17
|
My once and for all on the issue of which pick you should be required to forfeit for a keeper--plagiarized from myself in the other thread TB linked to:
>>>>[S]hould I be able to keep Eli Manning, who is sitting in my 7.02 draft spot prior to a trade, and then trade my 7.02 pick for a 7.14 pick and now keep Manning at 7.14? Post [90]
I don't look at it that way at all. Manning isn't sitting in any particular spot: he's a 7th round keeper. Last year, Manning was drafted at 7.02 only because boikin drafted in the second position of each round in 2009. So if Manning had been drafted in 2009 at 7.03 instead, would there be this assumption that he belongs there this season as well, or would there be a new 2010 assumption that because boikin chooses at 7.02, Manning belongs there? That's not tied to the worth of the player at all, it ties the player's worth to the manager's past performance. How does that makes sense? What if boikin traded Manning to me and I kept him? Why is Manning "worth" 7.02 if boikin holds him, but 7.14 if I hold him? The simple answer is Manning is not worth any specific pick, only a pick from a specific round: Round 7.<<<<<
TB has cited the following instance as a problem with applying our rules my way: Let's say I have the first pick in next years draft, but decide to keep Manning and Moss so no pick in 1st or 2nd round. I could just announce that whoever wants to make have the first pick in the draft instead of their designated spot can offer me a trade to swap first rounders and their 10th round pick for my 20th.
I don't see anything wrong with that. For one thing, there's not a ton of talent available in the first round in this draft--rookies and 6th rounder-types. It's not like someone's going to swap 1st rounders in that scenario and move up from Rashard Mendenhall to Chris Johnson. You'll be moving up from CJ Spiller to Ryan Matthews. That may be worth swapping a 10 for a 20 to some people, and I'm OK with that.
In another of the old threads, I said, "OK, legge, I do understand what you're saying. That doesn't make me feel like a manager shouldn't be able to sacrifice a draft pick he got from someone else to keep a player, though."
TB and legge continue to mention the post from legge where he said, "MC and I have chatted, and have agreed with his (and Doug's) interpretation that the spirit of the rule is that if you don't have a spot to keep a player, you sacrifice your next earliest available pick (in Doug's case, the 12th rounder received from Boikin)." I will just say that I don't remember things that way; I didn't think too much about it at the time. Doug had a same-round pick to cover the keeper. Problem solved. It also happened to be earlier than his own pick. If it had been later than his own pick, that would have presented an opportunity to settle this question. But as far as I remember that talk with legge, it never occurred to me that it mattered which actual pick was forfeited by Doug, only that it was from the correct round. Again, that was what settled it for me.
I'm not the Commissioner anymore, and I'm not going to keep pushing this. But it is important that the record is straight. I never went back on a precedent that I agreed to, because I didn't have the same understanding as leggestand of what we were "enacting".
And finally, given that this issue heavily affects keepers, I believe it should be voted on by the league. I’ve seen multiple posts from managers that this trading strategy is within the rules, but not their spirit. Or it’s called a loophole. Clearly the status quo is to allow trading like this. If we’re going to change it, a vote should be the vehicle.
|
| 65 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 21:53
|
I felt for a while that the burden of writing and getting a vote approved for this keeper rule was on me. I didn't really want to be the commish, but as nobody else was stepping up, I volunteered to do it. As the commish, I believe last years trade was not the status quo. It was an anomaly that bordered on upsetting the league balance, had two managers protest, and one quit the league. I've already told you how I am going to interpret the rule. If you want something more defined, propose the rule and gather your 75% league votes. Otherwise, in order to keep a player you will have to use your draft pick from that round or a higher pick. I think that is fair, it is exactly how we operated prior to last years trade, and precedent was actually set in 2009.
To use an even better example, I dropped Peyton Manning this year. I fully intend to draft him with the first pick in the draft this year. If for some reason Goatlocker, Beezer, or Boikin don't keep any of their first round keepers and take Manning, I am certainly okay with nabbing Brees, Fitzgerald, or Turner instead of Peyton, so a good enough gamble for me. But what if IAC elected not to keep Steven Jackson and then made a trade with one of the teams in front of me to swap first round picks and other late round compensation and was able to snag Manning before I drafted. You think it is fair for the league champion to be able to get the first draft pick because he traded for a draft slot that shouldn't even be available to him? If you don't see what is wrong with this, nothing else I am going to say is going to change it and the only thing that would make me see it any differently is a league rule forcing it to be acceptable.
Changing gears a little, but when people start talking about not enough top talent available at the top of the draft, it is because we allow free agent picks to be keepers. Michael Vicks to be 24th round keepers. We all do it and really, it's the biggest part to my keeper and drafting strategy now, but just imagine who would be available for the draft if we only allowed draft picks to be kept. Something to keep in mind for the next keeper league any of us form, because I highly doubt that would be a change anyone would want to approve.
|
| 66 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 22:02
|
Keepers
Frank Gore (1)
Roddy White (1)
Ray Rice (1)
Reggie Wayne (1)
Aaron Rodgers (2)
Devin McCourty (24)
|
| 67 | Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Fri, Aug 19, 2011, 23:47
|
Knowshon Moreno (1)
Dwayne Bowe (3)
Cedric Benson (6)
James Harrison (13)
Sam Bradford (14)
Brandon Lloyd (24)
|
| 68 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 08:08
|
boikin e-mailed me his keepers:
Percy Harvin (2)
Wes Welker (3)
LeSean McCoy (4)
Matt Ryan (5)
Clay Mathews (20)
Davone Bess (24)
|
| 69 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 11:46
|
I started updating the excel file with keepers from those who have declared. I won't go into the site until noon tomorrow to make it official, but this is the only player I wanted to point out right now:
Athletics Guy
Felix Jones (6) - He is a 4th round keeper you listed as a 6th.
Just a friendly reminder that I still need keepers from Goatlocker, Doug, Motley Crue, mjd, Challenger, and Bonka by noon tomorrow.
|
| 70 | Athletics Guy
ID: 05231519
Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:30
|
Rats...I didn't think this new GM would catch that! ;)
I don't know why I put him as a 6th. It doesn't impact my keepers though. I planned on keeping him with the 4th round spot anyways.
|
| 71 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 15:38
|
Keepers:
Maurice Jones-Drew (1)
Greg Jennings (1)
Ahmad Bradshaw (2)
Phillip Rivers (2)
Kenny Britt (24)
Derrick Johnson (24)
|
| 72 | mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 16:53
|
mjd keepers
Joe Flacco (6)
Tim Hightower (9)
Mike Wallace (12)
Hakeem Nicks (12)
Stephan Tulloch (12)
Ndamukong Suh (24)
Stil not completely sure of this list, but I'll delete this and repost before the deadline, if I reconsider.
But this will suffice for now.
|
| 73 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 19:18
|
Calvin Johnson (1)
DeAngelo Williams (1) meh
Jerod Mayo (9)
Jermichael Finley (12)
Peyton Hillis (24)
Matthew Stafford (24)
I'll just say this is not what I had planned until the realization that only the top 4-5 open picks are really valuable, at least in my situation.
|
| 74 | GoatLocker
Leader
ID: 060151121
Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 23:22
|
Do I have to keep 6?
Can't remember
|
| 75 | Challenger
ID: 345562218
Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 23:23
|
No, 0 to 6
|
| 76 | GoatLocker
Leader
ID: 060151121
Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 23:25
|
Ok, let me go look at it again
|
| 77 | GoatLocker
Leader
ID: 060151121
Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 23:34
|
GoatLocker Keepers
Matt Forte (1)
Drew Brees (1)
Johnny Knox (12)
Brian Urlacher (14)
LeGarrette Blount (24)
|
| 78 | Challenger
ID: 35781513
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 00:46
|
Adrian Peterson (1)
Dez Bryant (3)
Miles Austin (12)
Josh Freeman (16)
Austin Collie (19)
Desmond Bishop (24)
|
| 79 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 06:22
|
GoatLocker, 0 to 6, but if you keep 6, at least one must be IDP. You're currently within those parameters. You only selected 5 keepers in post [77].
|
| 80 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 08:14
|
Trade Announcement:
Mötley Crüe gets boikin's 8th round pick
boikin gets Santonio Holmes, WR, NYJ
Assuming the trade is approved, boikin's new keepers:
Wes Welker (3)
LeSean McCoy (4)
Matt Ryan (5)
Santonio Holmes (6)
Clay Mathews (20)
Davone Bess (24)
|
| 81 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 11:22
|
I looked at the site and don't see any pending trade to review/approve. Did you guys go in and propose/accept it at the league site?
|
| 82 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 11:48
|
Nope, we agreed to it on the phone this morning. I'll see if I can get him online to accept the trade.
|
| 83 | Doug
ID: 26723151
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 11:59
|
Hey, TB just got your VM... logging on now, keepers coming shortly.
|
| 84 | Doug
ID: 26723151
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 12:08
|
Colt McCoy (24)
Arian Foster (2)
Shonn Greene (12)
Lawrence Timmons (15)
James Laurinatis (24) -> (23)
David Hawthorne (24) -> (22)
|
| 85 | Boikin roaming
ID: 237522111
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 12:52
|
I just wanted to confirm the trade between me an MC. I'll confirm in the website in the morning.
|
| 86 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 13:25
|
Well Doug completely screwed any mocks I was running by not keeping Romo and Jackson. I'm kind of confused with that. Going to just put it out there and say he'll be lucky to get players of equal value with his 1st and 2nd round picks.
|
| 87 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 13:26
|
That Holmes trade was huge too, since he should have been the first WR off the board.
|
| 88 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 13:29
|
I'm going to begin entering the keepers for each team on the site since the deadline has passed. It will slot them in the draft slots and dump the rest of the roster.
|
| 89 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 13:37
|
Agree that was a big trade for Boikin. Kinda happy for him to get a solid deal like that. I was on the phone with MC and was pushing the trade through. I tested out doing keepers with my own team yesterday, so mine is already completed. I just finished updating my excel file and was going to post in here when I was done updating keepers at the site, but don't mind letting you finish them up if you want.
|
| 90 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 13:44
|
Oh, Doug doesn't have his 2nd actually, it's 1st and 3rd. Yikes.
|
| 91 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 13:48
|
Alright, all keepers should be entered. Please check yours for any mistakes.
|
| 92 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 13:50
|
I will double check them all as well. Thanks for hooking it up.
|
| 93 | Mötley Crüe
ID: 597211121
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 14:05
|
After reviewing the trade with boikin and TB, boikin should also get my 24th round pick in the deal. Sorry to be confusing. I had kind of forgotten about the imbalance in draft picks.
|
| 94 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 14:08
|
Going to redo your keepers with the correct rounds at the end and then swap your 24th rounder to him.
|
| 95 | TB
Sherpa
ID: 031811922
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 14:18
|
I should have posted that I was doing trades now. I had just moved MC's 22nd round keeper to Boikin, but will make sure it is 24th. Too many cooks in the kitchen right now, maybe.
From the original keepers posted, the only ones I had to fix were mjd. His 3 12th round picks should count as his 11th, 12th, and 13th round keepers. the rest were good.
|
| 96 | Bonka
Sustainer
ID: 019742310
Sun, Aug 21, 2011, 14:24
|
Didn't even realize we used straddling rounds for multiple keepers. Too much leniency on using lesser picks for players IMO.
|
|
|
Post a reply to this message:
|
|