RotoGuru Politics Forum

View the Forum Registry

XML Get RSS Feed for this thread


Self-edit this thread


0 Subject: Immigration protests all over America

Posted by: Seattle Zen
- [3415339] Tue, Apr 11, 2006, 17:59




Really wish I would have been able to join this march. Over 15,000 people marched in Seattle.

"Estados Unidos, es nada sin Latinos." rolls right off your tongue, and you don't even have to roll any R's :)



That's a lot of people, but it's on The Mall. This, however...

is OMAHA!

75,000 to 125,000 march in NYC.
Waving American flags and blue banners that read "We Are America," throngs of cheering, chanting immigrants and their supporters converged on the nation's capital and in scores of other cities on Monday calling on Congress to offer legal status and citizenship to millions of illegal immigrants. The rallies, whose mood was largely festive rather than angry, were the latest in recent weeks in response to a bill passed in the House that would speed up deportations, tighten border security and criminalize illegal immigrants. A proposal that would have given most illegal immigrants a chance to become citizens collapsed in the Senate last week.

I want to see amnesty pass very soon.
Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well.
[Lengthy or complex threads may require a slight delay before updating.]
1544Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sat, Nov 22, 2014, 20:05
As we saw in Georgia, illegals often do work that US citizens won't do. Because there is not so much overlap, there really isn't as much job taking as you might think. And here's the thing: These people are already working--they aren't taking jobs so much as already doing them. And jobs many Americans won't do.

But putting that aside, we can't just "change the law" when it is the Constitution at work here. A person born in the United States is a citizen of the United States. It isn't a "practice" as you put it. It is what the 14th Amendment states.
1545Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Sun, Nov 23, 2014, 11:50
I point to the construction industry for the only evidence needed of stolen jobs. Those are trade skill jobs which historically provided the best wages for laborers. We've managed to give those away.
1546Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Sun, Nov 23, 2014, 11:59
One more point....I'm sure you are aware of the efforts of Eva Longoria in trying to get better pay for migrant farm workers picking tomatoes in Florida.

That's the solution to the low wages for migrant farm workers, pay them better and American citizens will flock to the jobs.
1547Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sun, Nov 23, 2014, 13:07
That's not what actually happened in Georgia. And there is little evidence of job theft across industries. It just isn't there.

Migrant workers *should* get paid better. And a path to citizenship would allow them to invest in the tools of citizenship such as learning English, buying a home, and setting down roots into a community.

It isn't an us-vs-them situation.

1548Khahan
      ID: 521035218
      Mon, Nov 24, 2014, 09:25
1547 - I have no problem with migrants who come here seeking citizenship and wanting to be part of the system. My problem and the problem so many people have is the millions of undocumented illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes, don't get counted on payroll, use our educational system, use our healthcare system, take up jobs and housing and send all their money back to their family in their country of origin. They just take from the system with no contribution to it and no intention of contributing to it.

In my eyes, anybody here, doing it right and wanting to be a part of the American society is welcome to stay, even if they are technically illegal at the moment, they are working towards legality. At least for me, when I refer to illegal immigrants I'm referring to those who are illegal with no intention of ever becoming legal.
1549Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Mon, Nov 24, 2014, 10:59
1547 The article uses the same fallacious argument problem most people use in understanding unemployment. They rationalize keeping the illegals by saying that an unemployed US citizen doesn't want or can't do the job as well. In the process they doom the unemployed US citizen to remain unemployed and allow them to continue being a burden to our society. It's very simple, eliminate the illegal immigrant and the job they were doing becomes available, the wage for that job inevitably goes up to the point of someone taking the job, or the job simply goes away. If that job is vital to US interests then it will not disappear, because the government can do something about it.

Let us not forget that illegal immigration is illegal for both the person who came here and the person who employs them. Enforce the law, and we aren't having this discussion.
1550biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Mon, Nov 24, 2014, 11:16
The job currently is available. The Georgia farms couldn't find enough workers.

Go out and pick strawberries. Just do it for a few days. Report back, if you aren't hospitalized or dead.

Until then, you talking about Americans doing the work is just talk.
1551Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Mon, Nov 24, 2014, 14:25
#1549: Unlike the argument about jobs being stolen by illegals, the Georgia case is about what actually happened in real life.

It might be that illegals are stealing jobs. If so, it will be despite the evidence we have.
1552Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Mon, Nov 24, 2014, 18:53
Bean #1545

Having two sons who have been relieved of their 45K yearly construction jobs [drywall] by Mexican labor, you can count that post as indisputable.

No one has a problem with guest visas for the harvest. We have a problem with no border and a rock solid guarantee that half the political landscape will never allow us to have a secure border for crass selfish political calculations. They don't like the way Americans vote and intend to import a different set of people with a different set of cultural principles and voting patterns.

No deals are possible with Dems on this issue. They will renege on border security every time.
1553Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 09:48
Pay a farm worker $100K per year and you have no shortage of workers. One you accept that as true, we can begin the negotiating process.
1554biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 11:16
Don't be silly. In most places, they get far less than minimum wage now. In California, farmers have an exemption that allows them to be by the amount picked, which often works out to near $3/hr.

So let's say they triple their wages and crush their competitiveness. You getting out there to hump for cotton then?
1555Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 16:32
I believe Eva Longoria sputed that if you double the wages of the tomatoe pickers, you raise the cost of tomatoes by 1 penny per pound. You can do the math, but bottom line is eliminate the opportunity for farmers to break the law along with the illegal aliens and the market will determine the wage. Any other argument is not one of freedom and market economics, its an argument for subsidies for law breakers.
1556biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 19:18
Eva longoria?
1557Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 11:15
She's been doing the talk show circuit lately. Saw her on Bill Maher and Colbert. Just google what she's been up to.
1558Action Figure
      ID: 3610522610
      Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 11:52
Eva longoria?

Yes he plays for the Devil Rays Gold Glover plays the hot corner
1559sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Mon, Jan 12, 2015, 00:18
ST Reagan calling for an open US-Mexico border
1560Bean
      ID: 121011511
      Mon, Jan 12, 2015, 13:13
I agree with some of what Reagan spouted 30 years ago. Let them in if we need them ONLY. Illegals need to go back to Mexico, get in line and get a green card if the US government determines we need additional workers. However, I would argue, if we have high unemployment, we probably don't need more workers. It's a pretty simple concept, that should be readily apparent to anyone who does not have emotional attachment to the Mexican people.

Reagan's motivation in "opening borders" was simply one of legitimizing the acquisition of cheaper labor for his business compatriots at the expense of organized labor. Let us not forget Reagan's bullying of the air traffic controllers under his purview. So, when one argues for what is good for a non-citizen, remember that it is at the expense of unemployed American citizens.

Deliberately managing the number of immigrant workers in this country is a pretty simple concept, it's a no-brainer, that most dismiss, preferring emotional appeals to determine what should be deliberate policy. Deliberate management of immigrant work permits works only as long as we don't have people breaking the law and giving jobs to those who are here illegally. And that is where the problem lies, the lack of enforcement of existing laws with prison time punishment for the illegal employers.

Like Reagan, these law breaking slave labor employers are only motivated by the sole purpose of lowering labor costs through lower wages. They dont give a shit about the Mexicans, they just want to use the emotional appeal to further their benefit. This benefit is only gained at the expense of the American worker and the American unemployed. Employment of illegal workers are not good for the law abiding citizens of OUR country, and, in fact creates more criminals amongst our citizenry due to the desperateness, cynicism, unrest and idleness the unemployment creates.

The impact of deporting illegal immigrants from our country should be borne by the Mexican government and those American businesses that have employed them illegally, not by anyone else. However, that will never happen.

Giving amnesty to this wave of illegal immigrants just emboldens the next wave of illegals, making future law enforcement even more difficult. Taken to a ridiculous end, this process continues and our borders will become untenable, our cities become chaotic and our society collapses.

To me, this notion that "anarchy is desirable" seems to be the aim of many advocates of amnesty. For others, the emotional appeals have clouded their judgement.
1561Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Wed, Jan 14, 2015, 13:08
The corollary of believing America is the root cause of everything wrong with the world...the default position of liberals, is that anything would be preferable to the wishes of the American people and a new set of voters, any new set of voters is preferable.

Next, liberals will be insisting the tens of millions of illegals who have been magically recreated as citizens, be moved to the head of the line for government preferences. It would be raaaacist to resist this.
1562biliruben
      ID: 229341622
      Tue, Mar 24, 2015, 14:10
The chief logical mistake we make is something called the Lump of Labor Fallacy: the erroneous notion that there is only so much work to be done and that no one can get a job without taking one from someone else. It’s an understandable assumption. After all, with other types of market transactions, when the supply goes up, the price falls. If there were suddenly a whole lot more oranges, we’d expect the price of oranges to fall or the number of oranges that went uneaten to surge.

But immigrants aren’t oranges. It might seem intuitive that when there is an increase in the supply of workers, the ones who were here already will make less money or lose their jobs. Immigrants don’t just increase the supply of labor, though; they simultaneously increase demand for it, using the wages they earn to rent apartments, eat food, get haircuts, buy cellphones. That means there are more jobs building apartments, selling food, giving haircuts and dispatching the trucks that move those phones. Immigrants increase the size of the overall population, which means they increase the size of the economy. Logically, if immigrants were “stealing” jobs, so would every young person leaving school and entering the job market; countries should become poorer as they get larger. In reality, of course, the opposite happens.


This is the point I have been trying to get across, but who knew? That's what all the economists are saying as well, and they even have a name for it!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/debunking-the-myth-of-the-job-stealing-immigrant.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=mini-moth®ion=top-stories-below&WT.nav=top-stories-below
1563Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 10:45
Why is it that all of the arguments in favor of the proliferation of illegal immigrants try to debunk the intuitively obvious to the most casual observer loss of American jobs? Why is it that the appeal is to deny what most so clearly see as fact? Do you think telling people to call themselves fools is a winning strategy, an argument that can win hearts and minds? All of the 3 card monty tricks in the world will not convince a guy who has lost his construction job to an illegal alien, that there is even the slightest chance that allowing illegal aliens to work in America is a good idea.
1564biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 10:48
Sometimes, like in this circumstance, intuition is wrong.

Read the article.
1565Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 10:57
If the federal government concluded that we need more laborers they could issue more green cards. However, they have not done that. If you are in this country working without a green card, you are working illegally here. We welcome tourists, but if you want a job here, you need to do it legally. If there aren't any jobs back home, tell it to your own government. Is there really anything else to say on this matter?
1566biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 11:16
We are the government. We need to conclude it's good for this country to issue vastly more green cards. Then we elect like-minded representatives to make it so.

That's how it works.
1567Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 11:32
We have laws, people should follow laws or we are a lawless society. Thats how it works (as in doesnt fail).
1568biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 12:16
I agree. We should only enact laws that are enforceable, and we should enforce t hem with proportionate punishment. Every time.

Speed. Lose you license for 30 days. Failure to yield, lose your license for 90 days.


The economic pressures and the obviously nonsensical nature of our immigration laws make them unenforceable. We should change them, for the good of our country and out moral compass.
1569C1-NRB
      ID: 33292710
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 12:22
Speed. Lose you license for 30 days. Failure to yield, lose your license for 90 days.

The problem here is loss of license doesn't mean loss of ability to drive; it means loss of ability to drive legally.
I work with a former police officer who says the number of unlicensed/suspended drivers on the road is staggering. For the most part it's an unenforceable law.
1570biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 12:25
Drive without a license, impound the car. Buy a car, require a valid license. Lend a car to someone without a license, lose the car.

Pretty soon friends will get the picture.
1571Boldwin
      ID: 412132511
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 12:51
Silicon Valley is already FULL of green card holders being trained by the American workers they are replacing, and they will be working for half the pay.

Mother Jones

Maybe they will spend so much that the former native workers will get their jobs back tho, huh bili?
1572Boldwin
      ID: 412132511
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 12:54
Not when they will most likely turn around and take the job with them when they move back to their home country.
1573biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 12:58
If you listen to those know-nothing economists, they create far more jobs than they take.

Read. The. Article.

It helps you not demonstrate your incredible ignorance so blatently.
1574Boldwin
      ID: 412132511
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 14:03
I did read it and is merely fatuous spin. Take that economist's article and explain that theory to those tech workers training their replacements.

It's is hogwash. That economist's theory is wishful thinking. Seriously, explain to that tech worker how that Indian he is training is going to go back to India, with the job, and his spending is gonna trickle back to the worker who has to train his replacement...uhuh...how does that work? He'll sit there in India and buy stuff on Amazon dot com and this will so stimulate the American economy? Give me your theory how those lost wages ever return to America and make the American dream bigger and brighter.

Preposterous.
1575Boldwin
      ID: 412132511
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 14:27
Conversely, if it becomes easy to find workers who will work high skill jobs for half price, explain how this could ever make wages grow.

Preposterous.

Just be honest and admit you don't think Americans deserve jobs that pay better than jobs pay in India.
1576Boldwin
      ID: 412132511
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 14:36
And just because you can find an economist or other anti-american, marxist, or big government micromanager specialist to make any point that fits your agenda...

*cough*Krugman*cough*

...it doesn't make it so.

Whatever happened to common sense? Sheesh. If unlimited immigration led to higher prosperity for everyone we'd be floating in prosperity right now.
1577biliruben
      ID: 229341622
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 15:10
Uh... We are floating in prosperity right now.

I look out my window and my beautiful view of the Olympics and the Puget Sounds is dotted with a dozen cranes, and soon to be blotted out by the dozens of sky scrapers going up all around me.

Cities are booming. Jobs are being created at a pace not seen since Clinton.

If you are too negative, cynical and slow to take advantage, that's your problem.


1578Boldwin
      ID: 412132511
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 15:18
The view from the ivory tower I am sure looks lovely if you tilt your head just so.
1579biliruben
      ID: 229341622
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 15:21
Actually, I'm consulting for a private corporation right now.

Because they are so desperate for workers, they even will hire the likes of me.

1580biliruben
      ID: 229341622
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 15:26
1581Boldwin
      ID: 412132511
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 15:48
Amazing what you can make numbers do if you rule out the numbers you don't like. For example workers who have become so discouraged they have given up looking...*POOF!* Problem solved! No longer unemployed!!!


1582Boldwin
      ID: 412132511
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 15:50
I'm just curious bili...do you charge them extra for customized results?
1583biliruben
      ID: 229341622
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 15:57
All I have to do is look out the window to know shadowstats is worse than a joke.





I'm not the best photographer, you gotta look hard to see all the cranes.
1584Boldwin
      ID: 412132511
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 16:12
Here's an idea. Just impose the outcome you really want and you can practically get the number to zero unemployment.

Unconstitutional Executive Order #bazzillion and one

Henceforth the only jobseekers who need apply are feminists, the cisgendered and homosexual, disabled, veterans, undocumented and non-english speaking.

Walla! Unemployment solved. No one else will even bother to apply.
1585biliruben
      ID: 229341622
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 16:16
I don't have any idea what you are talking about.

I don't have time for statistics deniers.

You have officially lost the argument, when you claim the reality most not be reality.
1586Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 17:41
A liberal who doesn't understand that a person can become so discouraged he just gives up and resigns himself to living off of public aid.

Uhuh...riiight.

That is the whole point and modus operandi of the liberal sabotage of America.
1587Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 21:54
"A fool is a person who ignored information because it disagreed with desired results." -- Brandon Sanderson
1588Boldwin
      ID: 112382716
      Fri, Mar 27, 2015, 22:08
Like the long term discouraged? I agree, that would be foolish.
1589Frick
      ID: 17640169
      Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 10:06
A Sanderson reference, nice PD.

And the long erm discouraged only exist with a Democrat in office, if it was Republican, it would be 100% factual and a sign of great leadership.

1590Bean
      ID: 14147911
      Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 10:30
So, you're running in formation, the pace is too swift for some, too slow for others. If you are the leader, how do you get them ALL to the finish line in the fastest possible time?:

You sing them a song, we'll call it cadence. Maybe even the dimwitted ones will learn the toon, but if not, we hope they arent also the physically slow ones.

So what if you are the rank and file? The guy in front of you is one step out of cadence, he is stepping with the left as everyone else is stepping with the right. He doesn't even know and he's a jerk and cant be told anything. You are working your ass off not to step on his heels and you just cant get into a rhythm. If you drop out you look like a wuss, and someone else has to deal with this "out of step" guy as they move up in the ranks.

If you got nobody out of step and you are singing a rhythmic song with funny lyrics, all is good and you'll go to war with these guys. If not, we'll be writing a lot of sad letters.

It's a metaphor, in case you didn't know.

Left, Left, Left, Right, Left.
1591Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 18:42
Yeah, Frick, I just finished the second book in The Stormlight Archive, and that quote just popped out at me.

1592Khahan
      ID: 54152322
      Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 18:56
Absolutely can't wait for the next book in that series. He's a prolific writer so hopefully we dont have 3 and 4 years (or 6) between books like other series (looking at you Mr. Martin and Mr. Jordan).

His newest one in the Reckoner series is due out soon.
1593Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Wed, Apr 01, 2015, 22:18
I understand he had to put it off two years to finish the Robert Jordan Wheel of Time series, which was well done, I thought.
 If you believe a recent post violates the policy on Civility and Respect,
you may report the abuse via email to moderators@rotoguru1.com 
RotoGuru Politics Forum

View the Forum Registry

XML Get RSS Feed for this thread


Self-edit this thread




Post a reply to this message: Immigration protests all over America

Name:
Email:
Message:
Click here to create and insert a link
Click here to insert a block of hidden (spoiler) text
Ignore line feeds? no (typical)   yes (for HTML table input)


Viewing statistics for this thread
Period# Views# Users
Last hour11
Last 24 hours11
Last 7 days54
Last 30 days1716
Since Mar 1, 2007275183290