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Subject: Ramos - Compean
Posted by: Baldwin
- [14358177] Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 02:42
It is outrageous that the saga of agents Ramos and Compean hasn't been covered in this forum AFAIK...
Border agents sure understand...Citing the case of imprisoned former agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean among other complaints, all 100 top leaders of the National Border Patrol Council have endorsed a no-confidence resolution against Chief David V. Aguilar.
The union, which represents 11,000 of the U.S. Border Patrol's nonsupervisory field agents, pointed to Aguilar's willingness to believe the "perjured allegations" of criminal aliens over his own agents, in a statement issued today, first reported by the Washington Times.
Ramos and Compean are among a number of agents who recently have been prosecuted on civil rights grounds for their actions in the arrests of illegal aliens and drug-smuggling suspects.
"Front-line Border Patrol agents who risk their lives protecting our borders have every reason to expect that the leadership of their own agency will support them," NBPC President T.J. Bonner said in the statement. "When this does not occur, and instead they are undermined by their so-called leaders, no one should be surprised when they express a loss of confidence in those managers."
The NBPC leadership, mostly active senior agents, cast the no-confidence vote at a recent meeting in Corpus Christi, Texas.
The group, saying the resolution reflects growing dissatisfaction with top managers over "misguided policies and politics," listed some of the "more troubling reasons" for the no-confidence vote:
Shamelessly promoting amnesty and a greatly expanded guest worker program despite intense opposition to those concepts from the front-line Border Patrol agents who risk their lives enforcing our nation's immigration laws.
Declaring our borders to be secure while millions of people illegally slip across them every year.
Perpetuating the "strategy of deterrence" despite clear and convincing evidence that it does not deter anyone from illegally crossing the border. (This strategy requires Border Patrol agents to remain in fixed positions along the border, and in many cases prevents them from leaving those positions to pursue people who are spotted crossing illegally.)
Prohibiting Border Patrol agents from enforcing immigration laws in "interior" towns and cities, including many that are only a short distance away from the border.
Preventing Border Patrol agents from pursuing vehicles that flee from them, even those that are carrying tons of narcotics or other dangerous contraband.
Believing the perjured allegations of criminals over the sworn testimony of innocent Border Patrol agents.
Forbidding front-line Border Patrol agents from working congressionally-funded overtime – at the same time the administration is trying to double the size of the workforce.
Forcing all Border Patrol stations across the country to adopt uniform shift hours, making it easier for smugglers to evade apprehension during shift changes.
Drastically shortchanging the funding for transfers of front-line Border Patrol agents in order to fund unnecessary transfers of management cronies.
Cutting corners in the hiring and training processes in order to meet recruitment goals, including the elimination of two weeks of instruction at the Border Patrol Academy.
Amid public outrage over the prosecution of Ramos and Compean, Aguilar has remained silent, the border agents complain. Ramos and Compean were sentenced earlier this year to 11 and 12 years in prison, respectively, for their actions in the shooting of a drug smuggler given immunity to testify against them. The agents contend they fired at the smuggler after he appeared to point a gun.
Meanwhile, 90 members of Congress have co-sponsored a bill calling for Ramos and Compean to be pardoned.
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| 105 | Baldwin
ID: 00321417
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 19:15
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I have consistantly over the years pointed out that the Bush dynasty [as well as other Skull and Bones families] has been involved in facilitating the drug trade since the Opium Wars days, have been set up as governors in key drug entry points as Forida and Texas to facilitate the drug trade.
I further have consistantly pointed out that as leading globalists the Bush family has deliberately facilitated illegal immigration and the coming North American Union.
They have as much interest in stopping illegal immigration and the drug trade as I have in acquiring aids.
Prosecuting border guards, and intimidating them from doing their job, and corrupting the system is what they do. It is part of the family business.
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| 106 | Tree
ID: 1311551521
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 20:00
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you have also, consistently, over the years, changed your argument the minute a flaw was pointed out, and have been unable to admit you erred.
you said something very clearly: What's fishy is that the higher-ups are more eager to prosecute border agents than drug smugglers and illegals.
and, instead of providing proof or backing it up in anyway, you point, again, to your Bush drug operations mantra, which, true or not, does not provide support nor unmitigated proof in regards to position that there is more eagerness to prosecute border agents than drug smugglers and illegals.
proof, not anecdotes, is what was requested.
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| 107 | Baldwin
ID: 00321417
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 20:28
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If there is a groundswell of poliboarders truly interested and concerned about catelogueing[sp?] every last border guard prosecuted I might consider putting that much time into it, but I am not going to let some troll run me ragged documenting every self-evident thing. I am also very very tired of people all the way from you, to Nerve asking me to look up and document things I already linked to.
There are more than enuff outrageous examples of border agent vindictive overboard prosecutions for doing their job, already documented in this board to demonstrate a mindset, particularly in the machinery Bush left Texas, most notably Sutton.
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| 108 | Tree
ID: 1311551521
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 22:26
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sorry Baldwin, you lose this time.
you made a claim. myself, and others, asked you to back it up.
when you can't, you resort to the old "troll" argument. once again, YOU are the one who starts, and resorts, to name-calling. granted, over the years, i've put myself in a position to give you this little escape pod, but the fact of the matter is that you rely on it WAY too often, usually when your own argument backs you into a corner.
if you are not going to back up outrageous claims with substantiated, documented, and unassailable proof, then don't make the claims.
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| 109 | Baldwin
ID: 00321417
Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 04:07
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I see you are still under the delusion anyone respects you enuff to serve as referee in a debate. Stick to fantasy sports.
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| 110 | Tree
ID: 1311551521
Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 07:56
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you're the one who is turning tail and running, or rather, instead of offering support for your claims, turning around and attacking my character, which is typical for you. when you're in the wrong, you turn around and attack others.
i'm not trying to beat you into submission, just trying to hold you accountable for your words and claims.
if you can't back up your claims, it doesn't matter what *I* say - your inaction and inability can be judged by others. i'm not needed as a referee.
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| 111 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 09:27
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I have consistantly over the years pointed out that the Bush dynasty [as well as other Skull and Bones families] has been involved in facilitating the drug trade since the Opium Wars days, have been set up as governors in key drug entry points as Forida and Texas to facilitate the drug trade
Not just the Bush dynasty and Skull and Bones families.
Also well documented is Ronald Reagan's point man, Oliver North, in concert with the CIA as head of Reagan's NSC, up to his neck in drug smuggling and using the proceeds to fund the Contras in Nicaragua.
link
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| 112 | Perm Dude
ID: 53045150
Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 09:35
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C'mon PV: You know the Right prefers their criminals to be martyrs in order to honor and praise their "sacrifice."
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| 113 | Baldwin
ID: 00321417
Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 10:12
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Satan and his secret societies coopt even the best, when they can manage to fool them. I too hold that against him.
How they do it...my best guess is they tell them that it's either us or the enemy profiting from the trade. Which doesn't excuse it. Or him.
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| 115 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 13:23
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Bush commutes sentences
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| 116 | Perm Dude
ID: 39031910
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 13:37
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Another link
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| 117 | Boldwin
ID: 52044193
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 14:45
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It's a start to winning back the right, for the purposes of dusting his reputation off.
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| 118 | Boldwin
ID: 52044193
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 14:54
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Now there is a celebration I would like to attend, March 20.
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| 119 | Perm Dude
ID: 39031910
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 14:57
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Guns will be going off into the backs of illegals all day long...
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| 120 | Jag
ID: 460211812
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 17:59
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This is a great day for 2 heroes. It is funny how some rejoice in the conviction of 2 law enforcement officers and applaud an illegal immigrant drug dealer. Some people need to get their priorities straight.
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| 121 | dwetzel on BB
ID: 559392915
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 19:11
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Shooting someone in the back is now "heroic"? Puh-leeze. Running into a minefield to rescue a fallen comrade is heroic. Running into a burning building is heroic. Do not diminish the work of real heroes by abusing the word.
These ARE still convicted felons you are talking about, you know.
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| 122 | Perm Dude
ID: 320341918
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 19:34
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We applaud the conviction of those who swear to uphold the law when they lie to cover up their crimes.
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| 123 | Tree
ID: 1311551521
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 19:51
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It is funny how some rejoice in the conviction of 2 law enforcement officers and applaud an illegal immigrant drug dealer.
if a law enforcement officer breaks the law, then hell yea they should be convicted of a crime.
as for your claims of applause for the "illegal immigrant drug dealer", please, show me where anyone here praised the man shot by Ramos and Campeon, two STILL CONVICTED criminals.
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| 124 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 21:32
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Convicted in a very very flawed process, including malicious prosecution, innapplicable charges, jurors feeling intimidated into voting to convict, key facts denied the jury, etc, etc.
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| 125 | Perm Dude
ID: 320341918
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 21:44
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And it is worth noting that, even all those "facts" weren't enough for Bush to pardon them.
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| 126 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 22:03
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Bush's man Sutton was the man who rigged the process. You expect me to be surprised that getting Bush to do the right thing was like pulling teeth?
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| 127 | Tree
ID: 1311551521
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 00:20
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if those things were true Baldwin, the convictions would have been overturned.
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| 128 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 04:04
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...If wishful thinking were reality.
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| 129 | Tree
ID: 1311551521
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 10:02
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no one here is more guilty of wishful thinking than you, Baldwin.
although, that being said, *my* wishful thinking did become a reality, and in a couple of hours, it will be official.
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| 130 | CanadianHack
ID: 747218
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 10:15
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Baldwin's wishful thinking is that the world comes to an end (rapture etc.). The fact that is something he hopes for is a betrayal to humanity.
According to back issues of The Watchtower, the world will come to an end in 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975 and 1989. Maybe they got it wrong I don't recall any raptures in the 20th century.
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| 131 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 10:35
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CH
We don't actually believe in any rapture doctrine you'd recognize, Hack, nor do I expect to go to heaven, nor have we ever contradicted the Bible which says that no one knows the day or the hour.
Stick to something you actually know about, whatever that might be.
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| 132 | CanadianHack
ID: 747218
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 10:47
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Baldwin does the 'we' you refer to refer to Jehovah's Witnesses? There have in fact been several failed end of the world predictions published in The Watchtower. Or do you argue that the writers of The Watchtower are not actually Jehovah's Witnesses?
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| 133 | Tree
ID: 1311551521
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 11:13
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::goes and gets some popcorn::
::plops down on the couch to watch this one::
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| 134 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 11:13
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We pointed out that the 'appointed times of the nations' ran out in 1914 and that the last days had begun. Upon which world wars and every other sign of the end times began deluging the earth.
Newspapers even pointed out after WWI began, that we had been right.
I was giving public talks during 1975 and I can tell you exactly what we were telling people, and it included that fact that we did not know the day or the hour, that we weren't serving God for a date. It did include the fact that there was a nice round 6,000 number regarding bible chronology and Adam and the fact that that was knowable may or may not be significant. Some did more reading between the lines than they should have. We were saying exactly what we meant and pointed out our limitations. The one guy on the governing body trying to make more of that number than he should have ended up moving on. The organization went from 1 million members then to 7+ million since then. We like our new brothers and sisters and are quite pleased things worked out the way they did.
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| 135 | CanadianHack
ID: 31645103
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 11:27
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Here is what the Watchtower said about 1975 a few more quotes here some of which come from Awake and Kingdom Ministry as well.
Some of the best ones:
WATCHTOWER, Aug/15/1968, P 499:
"ADAM CREATED AT CLOSE OF "SIXTH DAY"
Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then ?Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man's existence coincides with the sabbath like thousand-year reign of Christ....It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years."
KINGDOM MINISTRY, May/1974, p 3:
"Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that no reason to increase our activity?....Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system of things in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end."
WATCHTOWER Oct/15/1966, p 629:
"Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. 'The new book compels us to realise that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed,' said a conventioner."
These clearly refer to 1975 as the end times. Or will you play Watchtower apologist?
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| 136 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 13:02
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My comments in #134 fully answer your contentions. Christians were always supposed to keep the day close in mind lest that day come upon them as a thief in the night. Nothing quoted in #135 contradicts that spirit nor promises to know the exact day or hour.
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| 137 | CanadianHack
ID: 911251015
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 13:12
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The quotes do clearly show that 1975 was predicted as the end times - even if nobody gave an exact day or hour.
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| 138 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 13:15
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The whole of 1914 onward is the endtimes.
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| 139 | CanadianHack
ID: 911251015
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 13:18
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It is clearly a distinction without any meaningful difference that you are holding onto.
You would like to see the world come to an end. That sells out humanity. Selling out humanity is evil.
The wacky cult you belong to would be so happy to see the end times that they unsuccessfully predicted them in their own literature five times last century. That should be enough to discredit them in any rational mind. Too bad yours isn't rational.
One of the most interesting things I have witnessed on this message board is your decent from often well thought out conservatism into nutcase crazytalk as the Bush administration fell apart and Obama became president. I think that the decent into craziness has been made much easier because you already have part of your mind believing JW insanity. Its easier to go crazy when part of your mind is already there.
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| 140 | Jag
ID: 460211812
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 15:26
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Nothing Baldwin has ever said can compete with the "nutcase crazytalk" of the far left. Liberalism is just another religion and much more dangerous than anything Baldwin believes.
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| 141 | Perm Dude
ID: 12021208
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 15:35
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Nothing Baldwin has ever said can compete with the "nutcase crazytalk" of the far left.
How about saying that Ann Coulter would be a better SCOTUS justice than Scalia? Do you believe this, too?
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| 142 | Jag
ID: 460211812
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 15:53
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Scalia is my favorite SCOTUS justice, not that I agree with everything he says, but his quotes are memorable.
I have not seen Baldwin make this comment, if he did, it was probably all in jest.
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| 143 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 16:34
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Jag
Not to worry, Jag. I'm a big fan of Scalia and Thomas.
Hack
Being for the meek and spiritually mindful, inheriting the earth has rarely been slandered and mischaracterized in quite the way you have today.
Suffice it to say that Jesus who repeated that line about the meek inheriting the earth and who predicted the last days of satan's failed system of things, would not have agreed.
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| 144 | tree on the treo
ID: 521142259
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 16:38
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still waiting for your response here jag...
as for your claims of applause for the "illegal immigrant drug dealer", please, show me where anyone here praised the man shot by Ramos and Campeon...
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| 145 | Jag
ID: 460211812
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 16:47
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No one has praised him by name, but some do champion the cause of illegal immigrants and sing the praises of pot. I wouldn't be surprised if Zen had a Fathead of the guy hanging over his bed.
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| 146 | Perm Dude
ID: 12021208
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 16:56
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#142: It wasn't in jest. It was a mistake, of course, and (like pretty much anything in his proto-religion/politics) once uttered it cannot be retracted, amended, or edited by him. It is here, post #121 Then again #128.
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| 147 | bibA
ID: 360521914
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 16:56
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120 Jag - This is a great day for 2 heroes.
Reminds me of the same sentiments several decades ago when one Lt. Calley was hailed as a hero, made grand marshal of parades, etc.
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| 148 | tree on the treo
ID: 521142259
Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 16:58
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thanks for the clarification that you stretched the truth jag...
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| 149 | CanadianHack
ID: 911251015
Wed, Jan 21, 2009, 01:50
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Being for the meek and spiritually mindful, inheriting the earth has rarely been slandered and mischaracterized in quite the way you have today.
Baldwin, your end times vision that you desperately want is something you are mischaracterizing when you describe it merely as the meek inherting the earth. It includes the destruction of humanity and the earth as we know it. That is what makes your belief system so evil. You actually support the destruction of humanity.
Notice also how you cherrypick which comments to respond to. Your wacky cult falsely predicted the end times 5 times last century. And that is a point you accept without debate. It is a point that shows the JWs are wrong. They have often been wrong. That doesn't matter to you - just as long as the slaughter of most of the people on earth occurs as you dream.
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| 150 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Wed, Jan 21, 2009, 07:06
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A. God haters would like to have it both ways. They want to both criticize God for allowing evil and suffering and then they want to criticizing him for taking decisive action when his appointed time for doing so comes around.
The subject comes up in Habakuk when the writer asks God why it seems he keeps silent in the face of evil (*1). God asks Habakuk, "...and does he have to kill nations constantly, while he shows no compassion?" (*2)
So no, he is not like the God of 'Monty Python' satire constantly stomping out the wicked.
But by the same token it would not be acceptable for him to allow evil and suffering without eventually taking action.
Thus Habakuk shows the situation as figuratively God surrounding the wicked with a dragnet (*3), mercifully allowing them time to repent and turn around their conduct (*4) but at his appointed time he will draw up that net and tear the wicked away from the earth (*5) and leave just the meek and teachable (*5)(*6), those truly appreciating righteous principles such as mercy.
You claim it would be merciful and righteous on his part to never stop the wicked from ruining the earth and causing endless suffering. That is not a merciful position after all. You fault God for setting things straight once, but you'd rather doom the earth to an endless series of holocausts and suffering than submit to his discipline.
The time has passed sufficient to prove that anarchy from God doesn't work, this allowance of juvenal delinquency is about to come to a close. The ultimate 'wait till your father comes home' is upon us.
Here's the kicker. Even if he were to allow the wicked into his promised restored eden and there was no armageddon, the paradise would be lost on them. They would not appreciate it. They would not learn from it and change. (*7) I'm guessing you expect to die in a few short years anyway. He will not inflict paradise on you if you wouldn't want to live forever peacefully coexisting among the righteous.
B. I've been around the organization 55 years and I've discussed with you the only two cases that could even remotely be mischaracterized as predicting the day and the hour and neither were in fact that. Where you get 5 cases is beyond me.
*1 - Hab 1:13-14
13 You are too pure in eyes to see what is bad; and to look on trouble you are not able. Why is it that you look on those dealing treacherously, that you keep silent when someone wicked swallows up someone more righteous than he is? 14 And [why] do you make earthling man like the fishes of the sea, like creeping things over whom no one is ruling?
*2 - Hab 1:17
...and does he have to kill nations constantly, while he shows no compassion?
*3 - Hab 1:15, 17
15 All these he has brought up with a mere fishhook; he drags them away in his dragnet, and he gathers them in his fishing net.
17 Is that why he will empty out his dragnet, and does he have to kill nations constantly, while he shows no compassion?
*4 - 2Pet 3:9
9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.
*5 - Proverbs 2:21-22
21 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.
*6 - Ps 37:10-11
10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
*7 - Isaiah 26: 9-10
...with my spirit within me I keep looking for you; because, when there are judgments from you for the earth, righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn. 10 Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah.
_____________________________________
Just so you know, I will not endlessly endulge you if you refuse to be teachable and in fact I am commanded by Jesus not to. Matt 7:6
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| 151 | CanadianHack
ID: 747218
Wed, Jan 21, 2009, 08:22
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And here is why you have sold out humanity Baldwin. You clearly have written mankind off as evil, wicked etc. (except for the "righteous" who presumably are the Jehovah's Witnesses). You are cheering for the destruction of humanity. All those evil people like the Dalai Lama, the pope and countless good people who don't believe your mythology should be killed. That is your evil dream.
Fortunately, this (like most of your attacks on Barack Obama) are things that do not exist in reality. They only exist in the sadistic reaches of your deranged mind.
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| 152 | CanadianHack
ID: 747218
Wed, Jan 21, 2009, 08:43
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The thread underneah this one is entitled "What an amazing day - the Obama inauguration". It was anamazing day. A thrilling even that inspired joy and hope in much of the world. Many people believe the US is fianlly back on track and with hard work some of its problems can be fixed.
This is not how the evil Baldwin sees things. The world is broken. Hopelessly. The only hope is for his imaginary god to come down and destroy eveything killing most of humanity. There is no chance that the US or the world can succeed at any meaningful change by getting behind Obama's spirit and his uplifting message. In Baldwin's world humanity is doomed. Almost all members of humanity are doomed. 144000 will be saved on Judgment Day. That is all. In a world of over 6 billion people, that amounts to about 1 in 50 thousand people being saved. 49,999 in 50,000 perish. That is an evil thing to hold as your dream. But it gets worse. That 144000 includes people who are reincarnated to get to heaven.
The Watchtower Society teaches that only they have God's backing and only Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon.
"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep. 1 p.19
"Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb. 15 p.12
"Is it presumptuous of Jehovah's Witnesses to point out that they alone have God's backing? Actually, no more so than when the Israelites in Egypt claimed to have God's backing in spite of the Egyptians' belief, or when the first-century Christians claimed to have God's backing to the exclusion of Jewish religionists." Watchtower 2001 June 1 p.16
The Watchtower 1993 October 1 p.19 went as far as to state that there are billions in line for destruction.
"There are billions of people who do not know Jehovah. Many of them in ignorance practice things that God's Word shows to be wicked. If they persist in this course, they will be among those who perish during the great tribulation."
The billions slaughtered at Armageddon loose any hope of a resurrection, theirs is said to be an everlasting destruction.
“Yes, the destruction of the gross sinners in those cities was eternal, as will be the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things.” Watchtower 1990 April 15 p.20
You would have to be deranged to think this happening would be a good thing.
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| 153 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Wed, Jan 21, 2009, 16:50
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I'm sure you weren't a big fan of the flood, or the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah either. The christians being thrown to the lions perhaps.
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| 154 | Baldwin
ID: 360281920
Wed, Jan 21, 2009, 16:59
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Besides the 150 congressmen from both sides of the aisle who have been lobbying Bush for some time, here is the background on the last days of lobbying, and the argument that seems to have won Bush over in the end.
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| 155 | Tree
ID: 1311551521
Wed, Jan 21, 2009, 19:26
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14,000 biblical quotes later, and Campean and Ramos are still guilty.
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