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0 Subject: A Torture Timeline

Posted by: Perm Dude
- [481151269] Wed, Dec 26, 2007, 22:52

Exhaustive timeline of torture techniques used by the US and when. Even when the Administration declares certain torture uses OK ("enhanced interrogation techniques") the fact is that the CIA was already using those techniques. In some case, for months beforehand.

A badly fought and drawn-out war costing thousands of American lives and millions of "natives" killed, injured, or forced from the homes. This is the harvest from torture that this Administration has reaped for us. Bon Appetit!

1Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Thu, Dec 27, 2007, 14:49
That's quite a lot to digest, Perm. Thanks for the link, very interesting.
2Seattle Zen
      ID: 377312416
      Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 17:39
Let's use this thread as for this great news and everything that comes from it:

John Durham named Special Prosecutor to investigate Abuse Cases!
The Justice Department’s ethics office recently recommended that prosecutors investigate the prisoner abuse cases, reversing the Bush administration and potentially exposing C.I.A. workers and contractors to prosecution for their brutal treatment of detainees, according to a person officially briefed on the matter.

Mr. Durham is already steeped in legal issues related to the intelligence agency. He is currently investigating whether anyone broke the law when C.I.A. officials in 2005 destroyed videotapes of interrogation of top terror suspects.

Mr. Durham will examine several cases which were referred to the Justice Department by the C.I.A.’s Inspector General and were subsequently investigated and dropped by the Justice Department under President Bush. The cases were detailed in a 2004 report by the C.I.A. inspector general that was released on Monday by the Justice Department. The report outline cases of abused allegedly committed by C.I.A. personnel and contract employees, mainly in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Let's hear from the Right about how this will negatively affect the morale of the CIA and contract employees once they learn that they may no longer beat terror suspects to death with impunity.

It is a violation of the federal torture statute to threaten a prisoner with imminent death.

So, is beating a prisoner to death also a violation of a federal torture statue? I guess we will know soon...
3Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Aug 28, 2009, 12:58
As usual, The Onion is all over this case.
4biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Aug 28, 2009, 13:03
Awesome.
5biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Aug 28, 2009, 13:41
"We could use griffins, but we don't use griffens. That's what separates us from them."

6Seattle Zen
      ID: 37243012
      Sun, Aug 30, 2009, 13:29
Now HERE's an example of why the ACLU is the greatest organization in the United States, bar none.

the ACLU's detention document request and subsequent lawsuit are among the most successful in the history of public disclosure, with 130,000 pages of previously secret documents released to date and the prospect of more.
In the spring of 2003, long before Abu Ghraib or secret prisons became part of the American vocabulary, a pair of recently hired lawyers at the American Civil Liberties Union noticed a handful of news reports about allegations of abuse of prisoners in American custody. The lawyers, Jameel Jaffer and Amrit Singh, wondered: Was there a broader pattern of abuse, and could a Freedom of Information Act request uncover it? The case has produced revelation after revelation: battles between the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the military over the treatment of detainees at the Guantánamo Bay prison camp; autopsy reports on prisoners who died in custody in Afghanistan and Iraq; the Justice Department’s long-secret memorandums justifying harsh interrogation methods; and day-by-day descriptions of what happened inside the Central Intelligence Agency’s overseas prisons.

“This is certainly a landmark case in every respect, including in the history of the Freedom of Information Act,” said Steven Aftergood, director of the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists and an expert on the act.

But Mr. Aftergood said the case also illustrated how costly litigation was often necessary to unearth documents the government preferred to protect. “The law gives you standing to fight,” he said. “It doesn’t guarantee victory.”

It certainly helps that a new administration is now the gate keeper of these documents and do not feel obligated to cover up the previous asshats' illegal behavior.
7sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 12:04
YAHOO article re former Homeland Security head T Ridge

Gonna have to get a copy of his book, but this article makes it appear as though he had some reservations re a number of actions undertaken by the Bush Administration.
8Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Sep 01, 2009, 10:03
A Tom Ridge simulacrum?

Or, what happens when the press doesn't check original sources:

So it has gone with the story of Tom Ridge's assertion. He made a statement. His publisher summarized the statement, distorting it slightly. The press distorted the statement further. The press began talking to itself about the distortion. And then the original statement, which Ridge had put down in the book and remained unchanged, ceased to exist. His statement was replaced by a popular simulacrum: All that remained was the distortion of what Ridge said in his book. The original statement was gone. And so, we have big news today: Ridge Backpedals!!!
10holt
      ID: 388120
      Tue, Sep 01, 2009, 21:39
More partisan political warfare garbage, similar to the Clinton-Lewinsky crap. Other than the far-leftists, who gives a sh1t? I want our government dealing with issues of today and the future, not chopping at our own feet.

This must be like Christmas morning for some of you guys. Since you're all so mad over the idea of justice now, why not start writing down a list of every law you've ever broken and turn yourself in tomorrow morning. You did the crime so go do the time. No?

Terrorist d1ckheads around the world must be going wild over this, and laughing at our idiocy. They prob can't understand why we don't just chop their buddies' heads off on live network TV. What's the Arabic word for pu$$ies? I don't know but I'll bet they say it a lot.
11astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Tue, Sep 01, 2009, 21:48
^ ladies and gentlemen, the new Boxman!
12sarge33rd
      ID: 17835119
      Tue, Sep 01, 2009, 21:56
so Holt...you would advocate tearing the US Constitution to threads, the institution of a radical police state wherein the accused is automatically presumed guilty and sentenced straight away; juuuuuuuuust to avoid being called a pussy by some terrorist?

Congrats! They won't DARE to call Holt a pussy out of sheer terror that he may behead them. But I'll call you a friggin idiot.
13Razor
      ID: 14791320
      Tue, Sep 01, 2009, 21:57
Re: 10 - so you see no difference in say, me stealing a CD from a store and our government breaking federal and international laws against torture?

A government that is not being policed will eventually trample more than just mean ol' terrorists' rights. Prosecuting these dickheads will set a precedent and deter the same sort of recklessness in the future, so yes, this is a concern of mine.
14Seattle Zen
      ID: 58842111
      Tue, Sep 01, 2009, 22:51
Believe me, the "terrorists" aren't the only one laughing at your idiocy.
15Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Sep 02, 2009, 00:22
I'm really not clear on your point, holt. Surely you aren't saying that we need to keep terrorist feelings important in our foreign policy? Or is this about some kind of adequacy thing for you--measuring up to the terrorists in the locker room?

Perhaps you believe that investigating torturing people in our custody will help the terrorists in some way? This, I think, we can dismiss out of hand--certainly there is no better recruitment tool for terrorists than a United States willing to torture and kill innocent people (as we have admitted to doing already). Nothing has helped the cause of terrorists than a United States willingly becoming the hated enemy that the jihadists always pictured it being.

Maybe you believe that we should not investigate what we've done, even though the evidence is clear we've seen already is that crimes were committed and that the torture was sanctioned at the highest levels.

While the Lewinsky investigation was, indeed, political garbage, it became so after it was clear that the only thing that the investigators had was Clinton lying during the investigation. In other words, they had a self-made "crime." The crimes that need to be investigated here, however, clearly exist outside of whether we investigate them or not. At this point we need to ask ourselves if we have the balls to subject ourselves to the same rule of law that we say other countries should follow.

I suspect, however, you believe this to be partisan only because your "side" will end up looking very, very bad in the end.
16holt
      ID: 388120
      Wed, Sep 02, 2009, 02:18
Not my side at all PD. I'm not a republican, nor a Bush supporter. These tactics have been pointed out as unacceptable, it's not happening right now, the democrats won the White House and congress, policies have changed, we move on. You can find poll after poll that show that the majority of Americans (in the 70% territory) agree with Obama's previously stated stance that we need to move forward. A minority favors prosecutions.

What is the end that you're hoping for here? Is it a pure interest in justice or an attempt to deal some damage? The republicans and democrats have an ongoing war raging, and people who don't have a far left/right axe to grind just have to endure it.

Some pretty unconstitutional things happened during the Civil War and WWII as well. What course of action would you have supported during those times? You can change policies and move in a different direction without seeking to put your past foes on trial. But whatever; this isn't the nature of republicans and democrats these days. You smell blood and it's time to feed. I'd be shocked if there were no political attack here, and it's easy to understand your joy. Sorry to interrupt the party.
17sarge33rd
      ID: 3781924
      Wed, Sep 02, 2009, 05:19
post 16, has an entirely different 'flavor' tp it, than did post 10.

Holt; I can agree that dwelling on the past serves no real purpose in the grand scheme of things. However, just because it is the past is no excuse to turn a blind eye to the conduct and give it a free pass either.

Ours is a nation of law and in order to remain as such, it sometimes is necessary to enforce those laws. If we allow the recent past administration a "pass", in order to put it behind us, what then prevents the current administration or the next one or the following on to that; from doing whatever they please? No, accountability and consequences to our chosen course of action, are what enable us to BE a nation of law.
18Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Sep 02, 2009, 10:03
holt: What I believe we should have done in WWII or the Civil War is a bit moot, since I cannot do anything about it. The fundamental question, on one with moral implications, is: What did you do when you could do something about it?

You seem to imply that there were illegalities in the last administration, but that investigating those are simply partisan acts. You also excuse the behaviors by pointing to earlier, other, illegal acts by our government, putting the onus on me to go back in time and demonstrate a timely and contemporary advocation of justice.

I believe that the best way for our country to hold to the rule of law and to continue to be the shining city on the hill that Reagan said we could be is by holding ourselves to the same laws.

The Bush Administration might (or might not) be your "side" but as long as you continue to decry "partisanship" while piling up flimsy barriers to justice you're going to get painted, at best, as a Bush apologist.

19Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Sep 02, 2009, 10:11
Also, the surest way to cut down on extreme partisan acts by government officials is by investigating them when they clearly go over the line. Has there been a more partisan act than torturing innocent people in order to obtain evidence to back up a political decision already made?

Just like not investigating other crimes, allowing it to happen encourages government officials to commit crimes if they don't believe there to be any accountability. This belief of unaccountability on the part of government people is one that we should never allow to grow, and any self-labeled libertarian would be foursquare behind efforts to curtail such behaviors and attitudes.
20biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Wed, Sep 02, 2009, 10:25
There are groups in the country that are aggregators of power:

- Politicians
- Lawyers
- The rich
- Military

Because they have undue influence, either through the writing and interpretation of laws or because they wield power through the strength of guns or money, without checks, they become ever more powerful.

Our system of checks and balances is badly frayed.
21DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Sep 02, 2009, 11:35
The obvious reason to prosecute and punish crimes (I assume for this purpose that there's a reasonable belief that crimes were committed) is to deter others from committing similar crimes in the future.
22Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Feb 20, 2010, 01:14
Horrible, horrible news.
After five years of often bitter internal debate, the Justice Department concluded in a report released Friday that the lawyers who gave legal justification to the Bush administration’s brutal interrogation tactics for terrorism suspects used flawed legal reasoning but were not guilty of professional misconduct.

The fact that John Yoo retains his bar membership simply disgusts me.
23bibA
      ID: 01116297
      Sat, Feb 20, 2010, 09:29
Yoo also believes a village could lawfully be massacred

At least he doesn't say that the village inhabitants could be tortured before they are massacred. And maybe we should just be thankful that he limited his thinking to villages and not cities, or countries, or whole religions.
25bibA
      ID: 01116297
      Sat, Feb 20, 2010, 17:03
The reasoning behind the decisions not to prosecute is either those who committed acts of gross misconduct because their superiors had passed down their opinions that said misconduct was not unlawful, or to not prosecute the superiors just because they were wrong in that they used flawed legal reasoning. If the Allies had used similar thinking after WWII, would anyone have been successfully prosecuted at Nuremberg?
26Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Feb 20, 2010, 18:12
The problem with the WWII analogy is that one political party would be completely in bed with the Nazis.
27Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Mon, Mar 01, 2010, 18:41
Mr. Yoo and Mr. Bybee were not acting as fair-minded analysts of the law but as facilitators of a scheme to evade it. The White House decision to brutalize detainees already had been made. Mr. Yoo and Mr. Bybee provided legal cover.

NYTimes Editorial: The quest for real accountability must continue. The alternative is to leave torture open as a policy option for future administrations.
28Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Mon, Mar 01, 2010, 19:45
PD

The one that reflexively bows to tyrants, no doubt.
29Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 01, 2010, 22:59
Yes. If there is one thing we know about the GOP, it is that they never enabled Dick Cheney.
30Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 01, 2010, 23:04
Or Samuel Doe. Or Franco, Noriega, Pinochet,
Banzer, Hussein (until he threatened oil supplies), Diem, Zia Ul-Haq, etc etc.
31Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Mar 02, 2010, 07:21
Bin-Laden.
32Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 23:29
CIA top spy Waterboarding ban hasn't hurt us at all.
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