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Subject: The 2008 Presidential Election
Posted by: Pancho Villa
- [47161721] Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 09:17
For all intensive purposes, the election begins today in Iowa. I realize we have a 2008 candidates thread, so let's try to keep this one focused on actual election results, predictions, trends, etc.
To me, the exciting thing about this election is the possibility that either or both parties might go to their conventions without a candidate. That could allow for some interesting alliances, compromises and hard delegate counts. We've already seen Huckabee and McCain line up against Romney, so where would those delegates go if neither pans out? Thompson? Giuliani?
What about Edwards' delegates? Hillary or Obama?
Hopefully it will still be a race in March and beyond. |
Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well.
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| 493 | Perm Dude
ID: 420241913
Tue, Apr 15, 2008, 19:44
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Doesn't match my skirt, MBJ.
:)
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| 494 | Perm Dude
ID: 420241913
Tue, Apr 15, 2008, 19:45
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Walk, did you see this one?
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| 495 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Wed, Apr 16, 2008, 12:02
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Bruce Springsteen endorses Obama for president
"He speaks to the America I've envisioned in my music for the past 35 years."
In a letter addressed to friends and fans posted his Web site, Springsteen said he believes Obama is the best candidate to undo "the terrible damage done over the past eight years."
"He has the depth, the reflectiveness, and the resilience to be our next president," the letter said. "He speaks to the America I've envisioned in my music for the past 35 years, a generous nation with a citizenry willing to tackle nuanced and complex problems, a country that's interested in its collective destiny and in the potential of its gathered spirit. A place where '...nobody crowds you, and nobody goes it alone.' "
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| 496 | walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 10:13
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LOL, PD. Thanks. Sorry for the very late, reply.
Eeeeesh, what about that debate last night? The only thing that is consensus is how it was an American low in main stream media political news broadcasting. They freakin boo'd Gibson and Stephanopolous, and rightfully so. The questions were so awful, so non-substantive, and so reinforcing of all of the wrong "issues" (pins, Wright, Bosnia claims, gotcha, gotcha, and more set-up's for future gotcha's..."pledge this, you fcukin dick" -- that woulda been an appropriate response from the candidates).
Obama, according to big time advocate Sullivan, was poor, but Sullivan says the real winner was McCain cos both Dem candidates looked trivial, were forced to respond to trivial questions, and Clinton was aggressive while Obama was exhausted. Not cool. To what end was this debate format? Ugh.
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| 497 | Perm Dude
ID: 13336177
Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 10:21
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Love the boos! That was pretty cool.
I thought Obama looked tired and at times a bit lost. Clinton looked focused but both were answering stupid questions. Affirmative action? Is that a big issue in this campaign? I didn't see the whole thing, but the first part was just slow and had a meandering feel to it.
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| 498 | Madman
ID: 230542010
Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 14:36
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Affirmative action? Is that a big issue in this campaign? It ought to be. Right now, unable to stay on substance, the campaign seems primarily about socializing why Pennsylvanians are religious (did I hear Obama repeat that people "end up" being religious because of economic issues?)
Haven't gotten through the online video yet. Was my big issue talked about? (world food prices?)
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| 499 | Perm Dude
ID: 13336177
Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 14:47
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There was very, very little of substance in the debate that I watched. Talking about affirmative action in lieu of a question about torture, the environment, spending (though a capital gains tax question apparently stood in for one), the environment, or asking Obama if Rev Wright loves America as much as Obama does (WTF??).
It reminded me of a FOX news person who, when talking about the Rev Wright flap, insisted that in "any debate on race" that reverse discrimination get as much or more discussion as discimination suffered by blacks.
I'm afraid, Madman, that the food prices issue was far too big for this small-minded, process-oriented "debate." Never came up when I watched, and I don't see it in the transcript for the parts I missed.
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| 500 | Madman
ID: 230542010
Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 14:50
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No questions on spending ... I haven't read all of the transcript, either, since I want to hear it online completely first ... Maybe I shouldn't bother and just read the parts I didn't see.
There is a fine line between sensationalism and substance.
Of course, after 21 debates, what's left to be said? It would be great if someone archived all 21 transcripts in a single place. I know I remember candidate X saying something, but gosh darn I don't remember when or where anymore.
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| 501 | Perm Dude
ID: 13336177
Thu, Apr 17, 2008, 15:13
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As a PA resident, I can only say that I'd hoped, going in, we'd hear about the issues that are of particular interest here: jobs, NAFTA (not mentioned once), and spending.
I don't think this debate will change anything here, since the debate was essentially silent on the issues that are important here.
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| 502 | walk
ID: 181472714
Fri, Apr 18, 2008, 08:32
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One Penn view on Penn Debate
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| 503 | walk
ID: 181472714
Tue, May 06, 2008, 13:01
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NYT, Brooks: Clinton Combat vs. Obama Composure
Nice one.
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| 504 | Perm Dude
ID: 5442688
Thu, May 08, 2008, 14:39
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No matter what else happens, you just gotta come away from this election with a big smile for Mike Gravel
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| 505 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, May 10, 2008, 11:51
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McCain defends the relevance of Hamas' opinions“It's very obvious to everyone that Senator Obama shares nothing of the values or goals of Hamas, which is a terrorist organization,” McCain said. “But it's also fact that a spokesperson from Hamas said that he approves of Obama's candidacy. I think that's of interest to the American people.” McCain is right here, sadly. He refers to a tendency of the American right that I have never understood - to award notable significance to the opinions of America's enemies' regarding our politics. For the life of me, I couldn't possibly care any less about what Hamas thinks of our politics or politicians. As far as I'm concerned, their opinions are irrelevant to our political process and have no place in our political discourse.
But the right disagrees. They feel we that we should empower bin Laden and Hamas by respecting their perspectives regarding American politics as pertinent and deserving of being trumpeted by our political candidates and consideration by Americans in the voting booth.
I really don't blame McCain for pandering to his party's base, even if I find the issue highly unpatriotic.
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| 506 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Sat, May 10, 2008, 12:36
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There are a lot of things of interest to the American people. I'm sure people might be interested in porno pictures, for instance. But I can't use that as the basis for leaving dirty magazines around the house.
Appealing to the lowest common denominator as an excuse for your actions is the same as having no ethical standards for what you do or say. That's not independence, that's pandering.
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| 507 | J-Bar
ID: 53452117
Sun, May 11, 2008, 09:33
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i know i have seen more than once trumpeting by the dems that obama will make us likable again to the world and when the right gives you examples you complain (shaking head)
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| 508 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sun, May 11, 2008, 11:16
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when the right gives you examples you complain (shaking head)
I didn't realize I was being ungrateful!
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| 509 | J-Bar
ID: 53452117
Sun, May 11, 2008, 21:59
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maybe i posted this in the wrong thread but i thought i read how someone was appalled by mccain reporting that hamas wants obama
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| 510 | Tree
ID: 44101115
Sun, May 11, 2008, 22:18
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J-Bar - go back and read the thread. it's not the fact that's a problem, it's the context and the way it's being portrayed.
it's not being portrayed as "Hamas has said Obama would be a good president", it's being portrayed as "terrorists want obama to win, and that should scare you into voting for mccain"...
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| 511 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Mon, May 12, 2008, 06:09
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J-Bar: Any and all dissent against Obama is not permitted here. Haven't you learned that by now?
The only context Tree, Mith, and Perm Dude would apparently accept is if somehow a Hamas endorsement could be viewed as a positive and a rallying cry for the liberal case to put Obama on his "rightful" perch high atop the White House.
What no one bothers to ask or care about is why would Hamas endorse Obama? And why SHOULDN'T that give the American people a moment of pause?
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| 512 | Tree
ID: 38415125
Mon, May 12, 2008, 06:24
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What no one bothers to ask or care about is why would Hamas endorse Obama? And why SHOULDN'T that give the American people a moment of pause?
that is EXACTLY the point that i think is being made here by myself and others.
you just went ahead and proved my 510, and showed what MITH was talking about in 505 - that people like you are empowering those groups we consider terrorists by giving merit to their opinions on our political process.
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| 513 | Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, May 12, 2008, 08:56
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What no one bothers to ask or care about is why would Hamas endorse Obama?
ask
The answer to this question looks rather obvious to me. Practically the whole world would has come to despise the current President and wants him replaced with someone who they believe won't continue his disasterous foreign policy.
care
Particularly since the answer to the above question is obvious, has little to do with Obama and everything to do with the legacy of the Bush Presidency, no, I don't care about Hamas' endorsement of Obama. Further, it's infinitely more effective to judge how Obama will deal with terrorists based on what Obama has said and done rather than what terrorists might think about him - unless you think these terrorists know things about Obama that we don't. Hopefully we aren't resorting to the notion that Obama is a terrorist sympathizer while the media still sated from it's most recent Jeremiah Wright feeding frenzy. After all, who's the real terrorist coddler and sympathizer, the candidate who is falsely portrayed as a radical muslim (when they aren't falsely portraying him as a radical Christian) or the voter who insists on hearing what Hamas has to say before casting his ballot?
Anyway, I'm sure this lapse in patriotism from the right isn't going away anytime soon so here's what Hamas spokesman Ahmed Yousef actually said:“We don’t mind — actually we like Mr. Obama. We hope he will [win] the election and I do believe he is like John Kennedy, great man with great principle, and he has a vision to change America to make it in a position to lead the world community but not with domination and arrogance.” For the record (and for the ignorant and unaware) JFK was actually quite the war hawk. Anyway, I don't think that tells us any more than the obvious fact that most of the world hate the Bush Presidency and that McCain is largely seen as likely to continue Bush's foreign policy and the Hamas spokesman is simply echoing the sentiments of the rest of the world in his statement.
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| 514 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Mon, May 12, 2008, 09:05
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What makes Yousef's "endorsement" all the more confusing is that I'm pretty sure that Sirhan Sirhan was hailed as a hero in Palestine for offing JFK's brother.
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| 515 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, May 12, 2008, 15:25
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Bob Barr to run for President as a Libertarian
Former Congressman Barr is the best candidate the Libertarians have ever nominated. If he gets onto enough states' ballots, he certainly could make a difference in a few close states much like Ralph Nader.
Barr, 59, quit the Republican Party two years ago, saying he had grown disillusioned with its failure to shrink government and its willingness to scale back civil liberties in fighting terrorism. He has been particularly critical of President Bush over the war in Iraq and says the administration is ignoring constitutional protections on due process and privacy.
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| 516 | nerveclinic
ID: 5047110
Mon, May 12, 2008, 17:06
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Former Congressman Barr is the best candidate the Libertarians have ever nominated.
Hmmm
I was just thinking I can't vote libertarian this year if Barr is nominated.
I find it hard to believe Barr is for legalization.
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| 517 | Building 7
ID: 471052128
Mon, May 12, 2008, 17:46
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I usually vote Liberterian, too for Prez. Jessie Ventura was also considering liberterian, because he would have immediate ballot access in all 50 states. I would prefer him over Barr.
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| 518 | Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, May 12, 2008, 19:13
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Bob Barr, huh? Two important questions:
1. Does he wear a flag pin?
2. What does Hamas think of him?
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| 519 | J-Bar
ID: 53452117
Mon, May 12, 2008, 19:58
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i want to make sure that i keep track of the rules
1. Hamas leader states he wants Obama- can't say it because the thought police assume a negative context.
2. Hussein is Obama's middle name - can't say it because the thought police assume a negative connotation is implied.
3. Rev. Wright is Obama's spiritual advisor and has been for 20 yrs - can't say that because the thought police say that it is negative and doesn't matter.
4. Obama's experience is limited - can't say that because that's not his fault.
5. Obama's stances are very liberal - can't say that because that may cost him moderate votes and is not fair.
Well I guess it is time for me to drink the koolaid. ommmm ommmm obama is great ommmm
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| 520 | Tree
ID: 414311218
Mon, May 12, 2008, 20:08
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J-Bar - you would do yourself a world of good by reading "Audacity of Hope"...
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| 521 | J-Bar
ID: 53452117
Mon, May 12, 2008, 20:46
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so why did he wear a flag pin today, i thought he was above pandering
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| 522 | Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, May 12, 2008, 20:59
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6. Effectlive counterpoints will be disingenuously twisted into PC attacks on speech and thought
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| 523 | Perm Dude
ID: 394501120
Mon, May 12, 2008, 21:21
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If only J-Bar knew Obama's actual positions on these things. What would he write about?
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| 524 | J-Bar
ID: 53452117
Mon, May 12, 2008, 21:30
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So pd tell me of these things that you speak of
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| 525 | Perm Dude
ID: 394501120
Mon, May 12, 2008, 22:17
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No way. I'm obviously biased. You want to know Obama's position on the flag pin there are plenty of places to find it.
Obama doesn't believe that pins should substitute for actual patriotism. Nor does he believe they should be required, like some kind of uniform.
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| 526 | J-Bar
ID: 53452117
Mon, May 12, 2008, 22:26
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ok so why then did he wear it today when talking to w virginians. p-a-n-d-e-r-i-n-g
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| 527 | Perm Dude
ID: 394501120
Mon, May 12, 2008, 22:31
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Whatever. Nuance is lost on you.
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| 528 | J-Bar
ID: 53452117
Mon, May 12, 2008, 22:40
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oh that's right obama is too nuanced for all of us. i may have to add that to the rules
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| 529 | J-Bar
ID: 53452117
Mon, May 12, 2008, 22:47
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oh by the way i didn't see in obama's position on the flag pin that said he would only wear it when it was politically expedient to do so and their might be a number of veterans in the crowd.
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| 530 | bibA
ID: 74331215
Mon, May 12, 2008, 23:19
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J-Bar - Can you admit that with certain persons you hate, that there is obviously nothing they can do that is anything other than devious?
If Obama does not wear the pin, he is definitely unpatriotic. If he does wear it, of course the only reason is that he is pandering or being politically expedient.
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| 531 | Boldwin
ID: 24421220
Mon, May 12, 2008, 23:38
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Ayers will stomp on it and hurt himself on the pin. Obama is just being considerate, not wearing it.
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| 532 | Perm Dude
ID: 420241913
Mon, May 12, 2008, 23:58
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It's a classic strawman, biba. They set up Strawman Obama, then slam the real Obama for not acting like Strawman Obama.
Obama stays with the same position? He's being stubborn or naive. He changes his position? Flip flopper.
All of it is just cynicism. Just like trying to tie Obama with Ayers.
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| 533 | nerveclinic
ID: 5047110
Tue, May 13, 2008, 01:13
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I actually would lean toward not voting for a candidate if they do wear a flag pin.
I prefer a candidate who doesn't feel he has to prove his patriotism with a wardrobe decoration.
As a rule I don't trust anyone who wears a flag pin and I immediately question their intelligence and sincerity.
...but that's me.
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| 534 | nerveclinic
ID: 5047110
Tue, May 13, 2008, 01:15
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Another thing about that flag pin, if you meet a politician wearing one, don't stare at it, while you do, he probably has a hand in your pocket taking your wallet.
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| 535 | nerveclinic
ID: 5047110
Tue, May 13, 2008, 01:40
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i want to make sure that i keep track of the rules
1. Hamas leader states he wants Obama- can't say it because the thought police assume a negative context.
It has nothing to do with thought police, you shouldn't talk about it because if you do you will look simple minded for thinking it actually matters.
Putin likely preferred Bush as President because he was so simple minded, but no one brings that up.
2. Hussein is Obama's middle name - can't say it because the thought police assume a negative connotation is implied.
Every time I've heard it used, a negative connotation has been implied. The person who brought it up did so for "effect"
You have to remember J Bar, there are large segments of the US population that are so redneck and simple minded that if you mention his middle name they will assume he is related to Saddam.
Do you fall into that group? Do you get a little back slapping chuckle out of his middle name. Are you happy that there is a group of Americans that are still so backward they won't vote for him because of his middle name...or because he's black?
You shouldn't bring it up because people will think you are one of them.
3. Rev. Wright is Obama's spiritual advisor and has been for 20 yrs - can't say that because the thought police say that it is negative and doesn't matter.
"White" conservative politicians have been friends with right wing televangilists for decades.
The media doesn't obsess over white conservative politicians associating with these religious leaders and their neanderthal views. Why should they treat the black candidate differently?
In any case he has disavowed the ministers statements so doesn't that pretty much close the issue? are you obsessing on this because you haven't got anything else?
Well I guess it is time for me to drink the koolaid. ommmm ommmm obama is great ommmm
I think what is interesting about your post is it illustrative of a lot of the attacks on Obama and their lack of substance.
The reason you "aren't suppose to talk about these things" is it makes you look simple minded J Bar. This is all you got? Kool Aid?
Are we electing a President or someone who looks like your version of Andy Griffith so you can still be in Mayberry?
Have you considered focusing on issues? Or is your world so turned upside down by Obama you have to discuss his middle name and who Hamas likes? Is that all you got J Bar?
Pretty simple minded my friend. I'll get criticized for this but...a little red neck IMHO.
By the way I am not voting for Obama.
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| 536 | Tree
ID: 24420135
Tue, May 13, 2008, 06:33
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good post there NC. i was trying to find a succinct way of phrasing things, but was having a difficult time without being overly insulting to the poster, something i've been trying to get away from.
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| 537 | Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Tue, May 13, 2008, 09:35
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MBJ 514
With all due respect you trap yourself here with the notion that all members of a particular group should think alike, or in this case, that they should be counted on to maintain such consensus through more than four decades. I don't think it's particularly surprising or confusing at all.
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| 538 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Tue, May 13, 2008, 10:37
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1. Hamas leader states he wants Obama-
Ahmed Yousef is not the Hamas leader. He is an advisor to Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh.
I don't recall anyone saying Karl Rove was a United States leader when quoting him.
Also not mentioned is this quote from McCain that went unchallenged:
"I think that the people should understand that I will be Hamas's worst nightmare"
Besides obviously pandering to the Jewish vote, how does this position advance any possibility of peaceful co-existence between Palestine and Israel?
Now, if you're Hamas, and one candidate pledges to be your worst nightmare, while the other's position is to attempt diplomatic solutions, which would you prefer?
Additionally, I'm one of the people, and I don't understand what McCain means when he says he'll be Hamas's worst nightmare. I do understand that if I'm a Muslim terrorist recruiter, McCain has just given me more ammunition to find those bent on becoming America's worst nightmare.
I find it absurd that Obama is being called out for something he didn't say or do, something he has absolutely no control over( a statement by a Hamas flunkie), but McCain gets a free pass over basically making a statement that ensures further violence and further friction in a region that screams for a more objective and consructive dialogue.
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| 539 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Tue, May 13, 2008, 11:45
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Besides obviously pandering to the Jewish vote, how does this position advance any possibility of peaceful co-existence between Palestine and Israel?
this is good strategy, imho, on his part.
there is some sort of irrational fear running through a lot of jewish voters about Obama, and these are otherwise rational, intelligent, voters.
my parents are Hillary supporters. no doubt, because my step-mom is a strong feminist, and really, if Hillary wasn't a woman, i don't think she'd be supporting her.
but every few days, my dad will send some sort of email with a linked story regarding "jewish concerns about obama!111!11!!", and they'll range from "OMG! his middle name is Hussein!" to articles like this one, which are falling into that Rovian trap of branding Obama guilty of something based on what others have said, not what he has said.
it's sad, and it worries me, because normally my parents are very informed voters.
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| 540 | Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Tue, May 13, 2008, 13:36
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OT:
Tree (or anyone who knows the answer)
jewish concerns about obama!111!11!!
Is there some connotation to a series of ones and exclamation points like that? Is it just a trendy way to express an exclamation? I see this too frequently for it to be a finger slipping off the shift key.
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| 541 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Tue, May 13, 2008, 13:45
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MITH - it's one of those internet things like "OMGZ!!!1111!!!!11!" or whatever...
i guess it shows a mock panic or concern over something. sort of like someone reacting like the sky is falling, when it's just an acorn landing on their head....
it probably derived from people doing that accidently 111!!!!1111 thing accidently....
here's a reasonably decent definition...
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| 542 | Perm Dude
ID: 35455139
Tue, May 13, 2008, 14:05
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More crap.
I would like to think that this is limited to the Right, but it surely isn't. I heard enough Democrats on the phone here in PA telling me that they would never vote for Obama because "he's a Muslim." Or "refuses to salute the flag."
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