Posted by: jedman
- Dude [315192219] Thu, Jan 01, 2009, 23:50
My son-in-law works for the Border Patrol in Chula Vista, California. He has been with them for about one year. He loves it. Interestingly, despite being there only for a year, he is now in the top 10% in seniority. He works the graveyard shift and says they pick up 80-150 people per night trying to cross the border. Except during the harvest season, about 60-70% of those picked up have some sort of criminal record and many are repeat offenders. They know him by name. He said that a great majority of those they pick up have a little card with them that lists all the rights they have when apprehended. A few things he told me really ticked me off. Many who have been seriously hurt cross the border to get caught because they know that they have to be treated medically after being apprehended. It is their right. The consulate general of Mexico complained that many of the more hardened criminals are being shipped to Arizona and then sent back to Mexico, where they now have a much harder time getting home and trying again. The consulate also complained that many of the detainees did not like the fruit punch that was being served while they were being processed, so they had to switch to orange. Why does anybody who illegally enters our country have any rights beyond basic human rights of being treated fairly before being sent back? 3 1/2 years ago, I had a brain hemorrhage which was initially diagnosed as an aneurysm. I was life flighted to the Stanford Medical Center, a flight of about 15-20 minutes. It cost me $12,000 of my own money because they did not use a Blue Cross "approved" company. I am a tax paying, law abiding citizen of the United States. How many illegals do you think I paid for with that flight? I think the world is upside down when we talk about rights these days. Mark said years ago they used to do sweeps at the Home Depots where men congregate trying to get work, asking for documents. They cannot do that anymore per court order. Does anybody besides me find all this a little disconcerting?
1
Fairplay
ID: 331163022 Fri, Jan 02, 2009, 00:52
The actions and "rights" of illegal aliens/immigrants has been argued back and forth for decades. Sadly, there is no easy answer.
We, as Americans, have had the good fortune of being born in such a great country. Obviously, there are many of those that are less fortunate than us who have tried---and succeeded---in obtaining full American status by less than proper means.
Does it make it right? No. However, I suspect that the very freedoms that we love and enjoy on a daily basis are exactly those that others would love to have---if even for a moment---despite (and yes in many cases, because, of where they were born).
I don't have an intellectual and fair response answer to these issues. I have no doubt that had I been born in another country, I would look on the U.S.A as a place of prosperity and hope that I'd never known. Perhaps I, or those close to me would do the same thing many of these people you describe have done.
Thankfully, I'll count my blessings, rely on much more informed and reasoned heads than I and trust that something can be done that is equitable to all.
2
Seattle Zen
ID: 43028112 Fri, Jan 02, 2009, 02:09
The complaint against fruit punch was one of the main impetus behind the Magna Carta. It's uncontionable that in this day and age fruit punch is still being served. The switch to Orange is Change we can Believe in™!
Seriously, he said that a great majority of those they pick up have a little card with them that lists all the rights they have when apprehended. Wouldn't you? That's just smart.
Many who have been seriously hurt cross the border to get caught because they know that they have to be treated medically after being apprehended. It is their right.
Yeah, we treat prisoners medically in this country. Believe me, the treatment is piss poor, but certainly better than some narcotraficante henchman trying to set a broken bone.
Why does anybody who illegally enters our country have any rights beyond basic human rights of being treated fairly before being sent back?
What you are describing are simply "basic human rights". Other than the fruit punch yarn, which, honestly, I don't believe, basic medical care for prisoners is the most basic of human rights. Our country is not going to jail someone and refuse them medical treatment.
Getting charged $12k for a life flight is horrible and it was probably not legal for your insurance company to deny. If you were dirt poor like these men coming across the border, you would simply ignore the bill. Does this make their life better than yours? I'm sure you would not agree.
I know many, many people who have received "free" medical care while incarcerated (well, they are charged for it, it's just that they never pay the bill). Believe me, there is nothing to be jealous of there.
Mark said years ago they used to do sweeps at the Home Depots where men congregate trying to get work, asking for documents. They cannot do that anymore per court order.
Good, I'm glad there are courts upholding the right to live a life without unwarranted government intrusion. I'm sure you would not appreciate having your car pulled over repeatedly and being ordered to prove your citizenship, why should a group of men seeking work have to do the same simply because a percentage of them are here without permission?
3
Baldwin
ID: 711143122 Fri, Jan 02, 2009, 06:30
Good, I'm glad there are courts upholding the right to live a life without unwarranted government intrusion. - SZ
That would make you a limited government conservative then, if true. If it's good enuff for illegal immigrants why can't I get me some of that limited government?
4
nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Fri, Jan 02, 2009, 07:04
"Except during the harvest season, about 60-70% of those picked up have some sort of criminal record and many are repeat offenders."
I was told, when I lived on Los Angeles, that the border patrol turns a blind eye during harvest season because we desperately need the labor to do work we won't do. Maybe your son can confirm that...off the record of course.
At least that was the story a few years back
5
nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Fri, Jan 02, 2009, 07:08
By the way I agree with most of Zen's response.
I also find it criminal you were charged $12,000 for a plane flight because the correct helicopter service wasn't used. How are you supposed to verify, or care, the correct helicopter service when your brain is hemorrhaging?
That's just criminal and sums up a lot of what's wrong with medicine in America. An insurance company with those rules should have their license revoked.
6
jedman
ID: 552262217 Fri, Jan 02, 2009, 09:17
I have no problem seeing to basic medical needs and sending them back to Mexico to have the more serious problems taken care of. Why should we life flight somebody who just crossed the border sorely for the purpose of receiving medical attention? Let their own government take care of critical, life threatening medical problems. If you are in the country legally, you should have no problem being asked to show identification, I don't. And the point is, they are here without permission. I am not advocating spending every hour of every day looking for illegals. In fact, I'm for letting those that are here and don't have a criminal record become legal, tax-paying citizens. I think to try and send back every illegal person is just not realistic, it's become too big. I just want the borders from now on to be tougher so the problem doesn't continue to get worse.
7
nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sat, Jan 03, 2009, 13:50
Jedman can you confirm the story I was told that at harvest time the border patrol is less vigilante stopping people who are headed to pick the harvest?
I think the person who told me was fairly credible and I also remember seeing something on 60 minutes a few years back where they just poured through the car gates at the Tijuana crossing without much resistance.
8
jedman Dude
ID: 315192219 Sat, Jan 03, 2009, 21:11
I'll get hold of my son-in-law and ask what they do at his station in Chula Vista. Will post as soon as I have an answer.
9
nerveclinic
ID: 26107108 Sun, Jan 04, 2009, 13:40
This was 4-5 years ago, with the renewed interest in Immigration issues the situation may have changed.
10
jedman in san diego
ID: 17057117 Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 09:00
nerveclinic - my son-in-law said that there is absolutely no looking the other way during harvest season so that illegals can get in to work the harvest. He said he can only speak for his station in Chula Vista, but he has not heard of it happening any other place.
11
PuNk42AE Donor
ID: 036635522 Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 22:17
Zen - What you are describing are simply "basic human rights". Other than the fruit punch yarn, which, honestly, I don't believe, basic medical care for prisoners is the most basic of human rights. Our country is not going to jail someone and refuse them medical treatment.
I don't think people are saying as much that they shouldn't get treatment, it's that people are saying this is bullshit to have this kind of stuff happen. It's already bad enough that my tax dollars are going for people that are on WIC and Food Stamps and not doing anything to help fix the it. I realize that there are many people that do need those programs, and they do everything in their power to make it by. But by the same coin being in a business where I see these people daily I know that a good portion of them are milking the system. When I watch someone spend money on Food Stamps and then see them get into their $50K lux car i'm not too happy about it.
Sure this country was created as 'bring your huddled masses', but it has become more of a promise of the past, than it should be for the future. If everyone in the system gets treated the same, and fairly pays taxes ect, then I wouldn't be pissed.
12
Seattle Zen
ID: 380281121 Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 02:19
Can't say I really understand your point, Punk. You want this "bullshit" to end, eh? You hate paying taxes so poor people can collect WIC or food stamps. Next, you channel Ronald Reagan and say that these "welfare queens" are driving $50k cars.
I sense you are going to be pissed for a long time because you seem to be just pissed in general. There's nothing that will cure that. There is no system that "treats everyone the same, everyone pays taxes". Your post was strange, dude.
13
Baldwin
ID: 34044918 Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 08:00
I hate to burst your bubble, SZ, but every grocery store checkout person can cooborate the story of at least one LINK card user [or whatever your state's version is] pulling out of the lot in a hummer and numerous LINK users pulling out in caddys, young ones. Plenty pulling out of the lot in cars better than the car the checkout girl drove in on. Some handle this reality better than others. One guy I study the Bible with is a store manager and he struggles to handle that gracefully and some days he loses.
14
PuNk42AE Donor
ID: 036635522 Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 22:11
Because being a manager I have to witness this 'waste' of our tax dollars makes me a pissy person?
15
Perm Dude
ID: 60141214 Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 22:52
He didn't call you "pissy." He called you "pissed." It is the difference between calling someone a thin-skinned whiner or calling them an angry person.
16
PuNk42AE Donor
ID: 036635522 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 00:24
Yeah i'm angry to see money going to stuff like that. Why should anyone find that stuff acceptable?
What is a logical thing we could do to combat people crossing into our country illegally?
17
Perm Dude
ID: 60141214 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 02:10
Well, we can probably make sure they are both actually illegals and stealing from the government before getting angry.
And if you are sure of both, make a call to Immigration Services, telling them where the people are meeting. I'm sure they'd like to have a chat with them.
Other than that, I dunno. I'm an open-borders guy myself, so I'm probably not the guy to ask.
18
Baldwin
ID: 410521218 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 03:17
I'm sure they'd like to have a chat with them.
What is your evidence for that? They are doing such a good job you'd think they were personally getting a bonus for every one that slips thru the border.
19
Perm Dude
ID: 60141214 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 09:23
Excuse me? You have a claim that these people are illegals ripping off the government by someone (based upon heresay and visual evidence of expensive cars), and it is me than you challenge for evidence that INS workers would do their job when asked?
20
bibA
ID: 440381216 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 11:29
I think he (Baldwin) is aiming his comments toward jedman's son-in-law. Maybe jedman can ask him if he is getting any of this bonus money......I assume the bonuses come in the form of cash, correct Baldwin?
21
Baldwin
ID: 410521218 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 12:09
Perhaps Jedman's son-in-law can explain why there is no border from the dull end of the stick. I think most of us understand what corporate america [campaign contributors buying slave labor] and globalist and/or america hating politicians get out of it.
22
PuNk42AE Donor
ID: 036635522 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 12:13
No I was lumping together the cost of things we pay out. Not that the people were illegals.
I am asking what is a logical thing we can do to combat crossing into the country illegally.
23
DWetzel at library
ID: 450491312 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 14:01
It's actually pretty easy, but meets with resistance from a lot of different circles:
1. Punish people who are here illegally. That means, among other things, send them back where they came from. It also means not handing out freebies to people who are here illegally (except for humane things, such as treating injuries, etc.) Otherwise, there is no incentive to go through legal channels, if the outcomes of legal and illegal immigration are the same.
2. Punish people who support those who are here illegally (by giving them jobs, primarily). Allowing businesses to hire illegal workers, frankly, damages our society a lot more than allowing someone to stay in the country illegally.
3. At the same time, recognize that a lot of those people who come illegally do so for otherwise perfectly legitimate reasons (i.e. work). The legal immigration process needs to be a LOT looser than it is now. What's so horribly wrong with opening the borders to people that want to be here (instead of having weird quota systems), as long as we know they're here and they aren't terrorists/criminals? The people who want to be here for legitimate reasons would benefit, businesses would benefit by having a greater pool of available labor (for those "jobs nobody else wants", which I think is overdone), and we get a new group of hard-working people as part of the society. I don't see any downside here.
24
Perm Dude
ID: 560101312 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 14:32
We can make it much easier for those people who want to come here illegally to do so. Why should a law-abiding Mexican couple have to wait 15 years to come to the United States?
When legal means are barred, the number of people trying it illegally will jump, so it isn't just a matter of cracking down.
25
DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 14:56
Agreed, to an extent.
But, a corollary, when the consequences of doing something illegal are basically zero, the incentive to do them legally (even if that were easy) is also basically zero. We're out of whack on both ends of the scale at the moment, I think.
26
Perm Dude
ID: 560101312 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 15:03
Sure. But this is like getting a bigger bucket to bail out your boat. Probably best to take a little time to make it less leaky.
And we don't have to choose. We can do both.
27
DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 15:24
Yes, we can (and should). Not easy while driving the boat, of course.
28
Baldwin
ID: 410521218 Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 20:42
Mexico has no qualms about sending illegal immigrants to their country home, believe it or not. It's ridiculous that a country can pretend to be democratic and allow something so unpopular for so long.
29
Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Sun, Feb 22, 2009, 23:54
Illuminating WSJ article on the security situation in Mexico.
30
Baldwin
ID: 9123198 Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 02:14
Yet we have posters right here on this board claiming their recreation of choice is a victimless crime.
31
Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 06:42
Until gangs begin gunning down police and civilians en masse in western Canada, the "recreation of choice" of many "posters right here on this board" is far less responsible for any violence or suffering than people who happen to buy diamonds.
32
Tree
ID: 61411921 Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 08:51
two sides of the coin, for me, personally.
while on vacation in the Yucatan a few months ago, we stayed at a wonderful B&B. the hosts were a really wonderful couple - she used to be a lawyer in another country, he, in "criminal justice", in Ciudad Juarez.
several years ago, while on the job, a note came into the "office" (terms in quotation marks are his), which demanded that the 5 people listed on the note be fired by the end of the day, or the would be killed, their families would be killed, and for every member of their family killed, an innocent resident of the city would also be killed.
he never said he was on the list. but he said it was his last day in that line of work, and that's when he moved to the Yucatan.
on the other side of the coin, is someone i know personally. i don't recollect if i've mentioned him. i probably have. but someone i am close to is a "farmer" in the pacific northwest.
he does very well for himself, and supports his young family. he farms indoors, and outdoors. and when he has to trek into the deep woods or kayak to some tiny tiny island to harvest his outdoor crop, he usually goes with a friend, who also happens to be in the same line of work.
no violence, no murder, no chaos, no mayhem. they work together helping each other, because they both live in a lifestyle in which they are comfortable.
and in the unfortunate situation that they arrive at a "field" and their harvest has been taken or destroyed by the police, they curse a lot, damn their own luck and damn the cops, but that's where it ends. again, no violence, no murder, no chaos, no mayhem.
to me, i wish i could live the lifestyle that person does. a peaceful existence on a bit of farmland he owns, with his wife, their dog, some chickens, a llama, and, until recently when some sort of "big cat" came out of the woods and ate them, some sheep.
that's the only kind of violence he knows - when mother nature is involved.
quite frankly, i think there is more blood on our hands for putting gas in our cars, than there is for smoking weed.
33
Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 16:23
Baptist pastor claims to have been beaten and tazed by border agents for refusing to submit to search
35
Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 07:56
I see Old Baldy had no snarky response this morning here.
I've always thought that we need to be listening to those who actually live on the border when developing border strategies. You know, kinda like listening the the Iraqis when developing Iraqi strategy, the economy when developing economic strategy, or science when developing climate strategy.
Silly me.
One would have thought giving local viewpoints a bigger voice in this issue would be right up the GOP alley, particularly coupled with obvious-to-point-out media overreach.
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