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Subject: on our Social Services
Posted by: Tree
- [41371322] Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 12:36
the other thread i started, regarding my employment situation, got me started more on the social services here in the US.
seeing certain things first hand, i wonder if we're not doing enough.
the biggest thing to me was Food Stamps, now called SNAP (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program)....
my folks told me i should see if i'm eligible. after all, here in NY State, i'm bringing home 430 bucks a week on unemployment. that's about $1720 a month, and a bit over 22K over the course of a year.
that 430 is the MAX in NY State. whether you made 40K a year or 100K a year or more, that's what you get..
of that 1720, nearly half goes to my rent. i'm fortunate that have a good landlord and a cheap apartment in a good neighborhood. i could easily be paying a lot more for this apartment, and really be screwed.
so, back to SNAP. lo and behold, despite the fact that i am taking home so little, i'm ineligible. w
why? because i have a tiny 401k stashed away. and by tiny, it's well under 5 figures. yet, because i am trying to save for my future - and it's something i can't really touch until i'm 59 1/2 without some significant penality, it doesn't exist, to me.
anyway, it's weird. after paying for my housing, i'm bringing home 11K a year. which is not much.
and i know this is going to open up a can of worms, but that's what this place is for.
i'm not sure we're doing enough in this country for people who really, really need it.
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| 1 | PuNk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 13:25
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Is that just because of you getting unemployment? What I mean is if you broke down and got a "McDonalds Job" after getting laid off and weren't getting unemployment, would you still be unqualified since you have the 401K?
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| 2 | chode
ID: 4744089
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 13:26
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You're not working, because you choose not to?
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| 3 | tree, on the treo
ID: 515451613
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 13:47
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punk...they do have an online thing that let's you see if you are eligible by plugging in some variables. I could try plugging it in with a job that pays 8.50 an hour, out of curiousity...
chode. yes. I asked to be laid off last november from my job of nearly a decade....come on now...get real...
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| 4 | chode
ID: 4744089
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 14:09
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My question doesn't have anything to do with the circumstances of your layoff. I read your other thread, and from that understood that you have a current job offer, but are debating the economics of whether it's "worth" taking.
I'm curious if by this post you're putting yourself in the social category of "people who really, really need [social services]."
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| 5 | tree, on the treo
ID: 515451613
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 14:50
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I don't see what my thoughts about my situation have to do with the thesis.
I actually think that my situation, making what I made, and being a renter, puts me in a better situation than someone who made double what I made, was paying a mortgage, and did a crappy job of actually saving money.
But it sure seems that if you're bringing home 10K a year after paying rent, you're gonna have a tough time getting by...
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| 6 | chode
ID: 4744089
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 15:03
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Aside from the fact that you brought up the topic as a result of your current situation (which has its own thread too) ... I'll let slide your declining to say whether you think you qualify as "really, really need[y]." I personally think there's a clear implication/inference to be drawn that you do, but that's just how I read it.
But your "10K a year after paying rent" itself starts with a weak premise that paying $850/month for rent somehow reflects the baseline social need. The more accurate statement is that those payments equal $22,360 per year, per person, and apparently that's before factoring in any participation in the food stamp program.
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| 7 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 15:06
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NYC rents are far above the national average. That needs to be taken into consideration. I would hardly call market rates for rent in his area to be "weak."
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| 8 | chode
ID: 4744089
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 15:17
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Leaving aside the concept that one "gets" or "needs" to live in NYC (or a nearby, convenient borough), I am well aware of the NY cost of living issue. I also think that in discussing what is/not meeting the "social needs" of our society, the goal should not be to meet the standard of living that someone has grown accustomed to, but rather to accommodate a certain base line standard of acceptable living in general. I am not saying that's not being done in Josh's case, but stepping back, I wonder if we would agree even on that point?
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| 9 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 15:25
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I don't know that tree's question is about maintaining a lifestyle. It is about whether he should be ineligible for food stamps because of his 401k.
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| 10 | chode
ID: 4744089
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 15:33
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Do you agree on what should be the general goals of the social system?
The rent money issue goes directly to his statements regarding $10k/year not being enough to get by. The 401(k) analysis was a tangential observation to the overall point, summarized by "after paying for my housing, I'm bringing home 11K a year. which is not much." Clearly that's the bigger point of this thread.
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| 11 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 15:41
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I think you're confusing things here, chode. If he's got $11K after rent, that's gotta go toward:
-food
-insurance
-transportation
-taxes
-etc
Your $11K might (or might not) include these things as well, but his doesn't. His isn't $11K net--this is $11K gross, post rent.
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| 12 | Tree
ID: 41371322
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 15:43
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But your "10K a year after paying rent" itself starts with a weak premise that paying $850/month for rent somehow reflects the baseline social need.
850 a month in a decent neighborhood is a steal in this city, no matter what the size of the Apt.
NYC has far and away the highest rental costs in the US, with the median being a hair under $3,000 A MONTH. for perspective, San Francisco is #2, but it's more than $1,000 bucks LESS per month than NYC.
meanwhile, New York ranks 24th of all the 50 states(that is not a typo) on the maximum monthly unemployment benefits, behind states like Arkansas, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Montana, WEST VIRGINIA, and well, you get the point. if i lived a few miles away in New Jersey, i'd be getting nearly 200 bucks a month more.
as for a weak rental market, not here. we have a very low vacancy rates, and i know rent between 2007 and 2008 went up nearly 7 percent, and i'm pretty sure it's about to go up about 4 to 5 percent.
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| 13 | chode
ID: 4744089
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 15:53
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What have I confused? The size of the $11k? What people typically pay for in everyday life? Not at all.
I've asked some pretty straightforward questions here, trying to get a sense of where Josh is coming from, what the goals of the social system should be, and even confirming that you know the point of the thread is not about 401(k)s. Those questions were either dismissed as irrelevant ("I don't see what my thoughts about my situation have to do with the thesis") or otherwise just ignored.
I am not confused about anything (and I never talk in absolutes). As a result of receiving unemployment, he's only got $11k/year after rent *because* he's paying $850/month in rent. At least acknowledge that you understand that.
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| 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 15:56
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Uh, yeah, I acknowledge that. How about you acknowledging that he's got $11K to pay for all other essentials including food?
You seem to be taking umbrage at the amount of rent money being charged in New York, as if tree shouldn't be there.
But he is there. And when you have no job moving isn't an option either.
Now, are you going to continue to sidestep the question that tree should be ineligible for food stamps because of his 401K? If it wasn't for that he'd be getting food stamps.
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| 16 | chode
ID: 4744089
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 16:05
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The idea that I'm the one sidestepping questions in this thread is a joke. The continued notion that this thread is about Tree's 401(k) and food stamps is slightly less funny, because it's such a red herring you've latched on to.
Obviously you're building up a head of steam to the effect that $22k/year isn't enough to live on. Which, if that's your opinion, I am happy to respectfully listen to. I'll respond re: food stamps once you tell me what you see the goal of the unemployment system should be, as relates to one's standard of living.
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| 17 | Tree
ID: 41371322
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 16:13
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Chode - whether i think i should be eligible for food stamps, honestly, isn't relevant. i'm asking, and looking at, a bigger picture question here.
my rent is what it is.
but if you'd like me to break down the 11K left over, let's do that.
that's about 916 bucks a month.
let's start with health insurance, which was outrageous at nearly 500 bucks a month before the stimulus package stepped in, and now i'm paying 165 bucks a month. since i can't go back and change that over 50 percent of my post-rent budget went to insurance, we'll look at the 165.
that leaves me about 751 bucks a month.
now, i'm currently paying car insurance, because, well, i own a car. i'll admit that is somewhat of a luxury, but it's 175 bucks a month.
that brings things down to 576.
add in a monthly metrocard, which is about to go up, but currently 81 bucks a month.
that's 495 bucks.
the we knock off about 100 bucks for internet and a cell phone, and while some people will call those a luxury, it's just not really possible to look for a job without those things these days. if i have to tighten the purse strings even further, these things would be among the last to go, and no, i don't have cable tv.
that's 395 bucks.
now, we have credit card minimums. it's about 300 bucks a month for me, and while some folks will say "you rang up the balance," i'll say i absolutely did, and now i gotta pay for it.
so, that leaves me 95 bucks a month to eat on, buy toothpaste and toilet paper, and really, anything else i need to to purchase to survive.
maybe that answers some of your questions chode.
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| 18 | Building 7
ID: 471052128
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 16:16
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But he is there (NYC). And when you have no job moving isn't an option either.
When you have no job, moving may be the only option.
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| 19 | chode
ID: 4744089
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 16:43
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Thank you for clarifying to PD that the food stamps issue is not relevant to the bigger picture question you're posing here. I would have thought my post #10 would have done the trick, but apparently I was the one "confusing things" and "sidestep[ping] the question." Coming from you it will probably sink in.
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| 20 | Seattle Zen
ID: 545531915
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 17:15
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I must say that you are boldly opening yourself up for criticism with these threads, Tree. I have some advice, some of which should help you now, others are more in the "what the fu&k were you thinking?" kind.
Why is your car insurance so high? Do you have a shitty driving record? I have an old car, so I do not have comprehensive insurance, but it is not bare bones and I pay $620 a year. NYC rates would not make increase my payment by 600%. Either lower your rates or sell the car.
Are you traveling so much that you would be spending more than $81/month on the subway and buses? Maybe you should pay per trip and save some money.
Do you have a land line? Drop the cell phone.
Now the head scratching. Why put money into a 401(k) when you have a huge debt that is rising at double digit interest rates? Your 401(k) certainly is not doing so. You are throwing $300/month into a rat hole. That's a shitload of money. Maybe you ought to consider bankruptcy.
I commend you for finding a place to live for $850/month, that is simply outstanding for the Big Apple. You should be able to get by on your unemployment, but your past mistakes with your credit cards are making it difficult. You should not be disappointed that you don't qualify for food stamps. That program was created for a different population.
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| 21 | tree, on the treo
ID: 515451613
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 17:54
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on car insurance:
seriously, that's nyc. My driving record is fine. No moving violations, and an accident where I was rear ended. Those are nyc rates..
on the subway:
81 bucks is cheaper than per ride. I get on the subway and do 21 round trips - less than once a day - and its more than 81 bucks pay per ride.
land vs. celly:
Haven't had a land line in a decade.
on the 401K.
the money was being put in the 401K when I was working, and was literally a few bucks a week. It wasn't going to make a dent on the credit cards. And at the time, it was making me some nice dough..
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| 22 | WiddleAvi
Sustainer
ID: 361032112
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 18:00
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I am with chode on this. You are complaining that the 22k is not enough. It would be enough if you did not have your car or credit card bills. Reminds me of Judge Judy. Some lady was on with a $300 cell phone paid for with welfare benefits.
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| 23 | WiddleAvi
Sustainer
ID: 361032112
Fri, Jun 19, 2009, 18:04
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One more thing - The question was what is social services there for. IMO, it there to make sure you have a roof over your head and food to put on your table. It is not there to pay for your car, internet, credit card bills, etc.
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| 24 | tastethewaste
ID: 16545205
Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 06:45
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on the car insurance. that is not new york city. I am in the same borough as you and pay 1300 bucks less per year.
why are you doing 21 round trips on the subway if youre unemployed? whats the car for if you take the subway 21 out of 30 days per month?
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| 25 | Mith
Dude
ID: 01629107
Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 08:01
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I don't know if this is the reason for the size of Tree's payment but if you have a lapse in your insurance (i.e. if he didn't own a car or have one insured) for a period of time, the car insurance companies wallop you in the first year.
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| 26 | tree, on the treo
ID: 515451613
Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 10:41
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taste - do you have comprehensive? that could be the difference there.
avi - my credit cards are my credit cards. I don't use them now, but I am paying them off...cant' change the past....better I should default on what I owe?
again, this is not to say I should get social services or what have you, but I was questioning and examining them, as I feel if you are bringing home less than 1000 a month after rent in NYC, that's not much money at all...
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| 27 | WiddleAvi
Sustainer
ID: 361032112
Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 11:01
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I am not saying that you should default on them. But should taxpayers be responsible for paying it ?
And no 1000 after rent is not a lot but the question is what should be covered ? IMO it is there to cover food & a place to live. It should not cover internet, phones, car, etc.
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| 28 | WiddleAvi
Sustainer
ID: 361032112
Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 11:02
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Tree- Let me ask you this. How much do you think should be given ? And what expenses should be covered ?
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| 29 | tree, on the treo
ID: 515451613
Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 11:11
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again...im not asking for anything. I'm just looking at things from different angles, and thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss.
unfortunatly, people got lost in talking about me, rather than the issue....
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| 30 | WiddleAvi
Sustainer
ID: 361032112
Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 11:14
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Tree- Forget your situation. What expenses do you think should be covered ?
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| 31 | Tree
ID: 41371322
Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 11:58
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i think it needs to be a case by case situation, and i think each individual's situation needs to be taken into consideration.
it should cover housing and food, of course. but how does that work? what factors do you consider?
i'd need to think about what works out.
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